Podcasts about Untrapped

In this episode, Keith gets real about the tough balance between working for money and chasing what you love. He talks about his journey dealing with jobs that paid the bills versus work that brought him joy. Keith shares some eye-opening insights on whether doing something just for the cash or trying to turn your passion into your paycheck is worth it. He even brings in some tips from the pros on how to juggle financial needs while still following your heart. If you've ever felt stuck doing a job you can't stand or dreamt of making money doing what you love, Keith's got some solid advice to help you figure it out. So, tune in for an honest chat about finding that sweet spot between responsibility and fulfillment.   Check out these episode highlights

In this episode of the Untrapped Podcast, Keith Kalfas gets personal and pretty inspiring as he talks about how even the smallest positive gestures can have a massive impact on the world. He shares some cool stories about passing on the right book at the right time or making a YouTube video when you least feel like it can be life-changing for others. Keith digs into how trusting your gut and doing random acts of kindness aren't just lovely things to do—they can totally transform lives, including your own. He also talks about the highs and potential lows of success, urging everyone to make the most of their unique gifts. It's all about taking action, being kind, and letting your light shine brighter than ever. Tune in for some real talk and motivation to double down on your goodness this year!     Check out these episode highlights

In this episode, Keith opens up about the rollercoaster ride of building and running his own landscaping business. You'll hear about why he now schedules all his landscaping quotes for Mondays. It's part of a strategy to bring more sanity into his hectic schedule and ensure that he's not just drowning in work but enjoying life. Keith dives into those early days of hardcore hustle when he was grinding seven days a week to keep things afloat. Whether you're in the landscaping business or any other venture, you probably know the strain it can put on your personal life — missing dinners with family and events with friends. That's where his newfound love for batching tasks comes in. By tackling quotes all in one day, he's improved efficiency and reclaimed some downtime. He also doesn't shy away from the challenges—like managing employees, dealing with unexpected problems, and the nerve-wracking task of raising prices. These are real-talk moments that many small business owners face, and Keith shares his journey with humor and honesty. Whether you're a seasoned entrepreneur or starting, Keith's stories about figuring out how to make better money in less time and dealing with the daily chaos of running a business will resonate. He wraps it all up with a reminder to be grateful, stay committed, and always keep pushing forward. So, grab your headphones, get comfy, and enjoy this episode full of real-life insights and inspiration!     Check out these episode highlights: 00:00 - Adopting Batching for Efficiency and Balance 03:24 - Monday Quote-Only System Success 06:28 - "Struggles in Legalizing Small Businesses" 13:14 - "Seeking Rock Star Employees" 14:55 - Launching New Crew: Monday Rollout Plan 20:55 - Newlywed Arguments and Hurt Feelings 24:41- Prioritize Selfishness for Business Success 28:05 - Weekend Motivation and Mike Andes Recognition    Key Takeaways:  Efficient Batching: Discover how dedicating a single day to client quotes can enhance your time management, allowing for deeper focus and increased productivity throughout the week. Work-Life Balance: Transitioning quotes to a fixed schedule has helped reclaim personal time without sacrificing business success, marking a significant shift towards a healthier work-life balance. Growth through Challenges: Hear stories on navigating the complexities of scaling a business, from handling employee challenges to making tough pricing decisions while maintaining a committed and grateful mindset.   Resources and Websites:  Unstrapped Alliance -  https://www.keithkalfas.com/alliance

In the past three decades, renowned author Pico Iyer has made more than 100 trips to a small monastery in California. Today, he shares what he's learned there, along with other moments of beauty from his new book Aflame. He talks about why many of us crave a particular type of silence, how to escape the trappings of our minds, why a recollection can be more profound than a realization, and how he's come to see the people in his life more clearly. For more on Pico Iyer, his books, and this special Benedictine hermitage, head over to my Substack. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Keith delivers a profound narrative on navigating life's darkest moments in this compelling episode of The Untrapped. He recounts his experiences of financial hardship and emotional challenges, illustrating how he discerned a faint glimmer of hope amidst seemingly insurmountable despair. Keith emphasizes the importance of developing resilience and the readiness to receive life's blessings when they eventually appear. He invites you to consider the broader aspects of success beyond material wealth, challenging them to cultivate inner peace and purpose.  Join us as we uncover the significance of being prepared to emerge as guiding lights for future generations, reinforcing the enduring truth that there is a light at the end of every tunnel.   Check out these episode highlights: 00:00 Patience and perseverance build the readiness needed for responsibility. 03:10 Embracing inner peace invites blessings; firmly resist negativity.   Key Takeaways:  Embrace the Journey: Success doesn't happen overnight. The challenges we face today are preparing us for the responsibilities of future blessings. Develop the skills and resilience needed to handle what's coming your way. Internal Peace Leads to External Success: Sometimes, the breakthrough comes not from what's happening outside but from maintaining peace and surrender. Let go of the need to control everything and focus on your inner tranquility. Persevere Through the Dark Times: Even in the darkest moments, there's a light destined for you. Keep taking action towards your dreams, regardless of the naysayers, and remember that others count on you to reach your potential.   Connect with Keith Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/keithkalfas/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thelandscapingemployeetrap Website: https://www.keithkalfas.com/resources Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@keith-kalfas   Resources and Websites: 

Let's talk about Mickey Mouse in the Public Domain!

In this episode, we dive into the world of opera and classical programming with a true luminary in the field, Lee Anne Myslewski. As the Vice President of Opera and Classical Programming at Wolf Trap, Lee Anne shares her journey since joining the organization in 2006. With a passion for nurturing emerging artists, she has played a pivotal role in making Wolf Trap the country's foremost summer training program. Lee Anne's expertise extends beyond the Wolf Trap Opera, as she oversees classical music programming and has initiated groundbreaking series like "Untrapped." Through her visionary leadership, she has forged partnerships with esteemed institutions, from The Metropolitan Opera to the Shakespeare Theatre. We explore her role in casting and programming operatic productions, drawing from her vast experience of over 8,000 live auditions. As a graduate of Carnegie Mellon University and the Maryland Opera Studio, Lee Anne brings a wealth of knowledge to the podcast. Her influence extends to educational institutions where she serves as a visiting/virtual lecturer, shaping the future of opera. We discuss her involvement in competitions, such as The Metropolitan Opera's Lindemann Competition, and her role in the executive board of Opera America. My gratitude goes out to Hannah Boissonneault who edits our Masterclass episodes and to Juanitos and Scott Holmes for the music featured in this episode. You can help support the creation of these episodes when you join the Sybaritic Camerata on Patreon. Get started at patreon.com/mezzoihnen. Be on the Studio Class Podcast Megan Ihnen is a professional mezzo-soprano, teacher, writer, and arts entrepreneur who is passionate about helping other musicians and creative professionals live their best lives. Studio Class is an outgrowth of her popular #29DaystoDiva series from The Sybaritic Singer. Let your emerging professionals be part of the podcast! Invite Megan to your studio class for a taping of an episode. Your students ask questions and informative, fun conversation ensues. Special Guest: Lee Anne Myslewski.

Black people's Adversity (dysfunction, misfortune etc.) for sale has been something packaged, repackaged and sold since the inception of American systems. I'm choosing to tap out of that belief system. Note: 20 minute Root Chakra Yoga| Get Grounded video on Black Yogi Nico Marie's YouTube channel

A Better Barber Shop - The Gents Place - Founder - Ben Davis

A Better Barber Shop - The Gents Place - Founder - Ben Davis

How do we attract more clients and stand out against competitors' businesses through effective marketing strategies and systems?   As today's guest says, attracting qualified leads is hard, and landing bigger jobs can be tough. With all the advancement going on, there's a lot more competition and challenges on the sides. But that's exactly why he's here today – to share golden nuggets you can easily implement. Join us as we learn from Matt Thibeau today.   Matt Thibeau is the Owner and Founder of Savant Marketing Agency, helping contractors systemize their marketing and sales process. He is one of the top digital marketing experts in the home improvement industry, an Author of Dude 2.0, and a Client Acquisition Expert for top construction companies across North America.   Through Matt and Savant Marketing Agency, you can get new ideas, new concepts, and new strategies, giving you results that make your phone ring, projects that make you more profit, and systems that save you time. So what are you waiting for? Have your note-taking tools ready, for we are about to drop mind-bombs on today's episode of Untrapped!     “In the beginning, the best things that you can be doing are gathering what I call proof assets, and that would be pictures; just snapping quick pictures of your work and really showing before and after pictures of the best thing you can show so someone actually has a level of comparison. Because when you just show an after picture, then people have nothing to compare it to. So, it is important to be able to show, like, ‘Hey, here's what it looked like before—crappy, ugly lawn or backyard—and then here's what it looks like now.”   – Matt Thibeau     Topics Covered   00:00 – “In the beginning, the best things that you can be doing are gathering what I call proof assets, and that would be pictures.”   Welcoming today's awesome guest, Matt Thibeau   03:51 – “I've always been interested in marketing, but I kind of just fell into the contracting niche. And so, I just kind of ran with it from there.”   Who is Matt Thibeau? Why is he doing the work that he does? How is he able to understand all the subtle nuances of what contractors actually go through?   06:37 – “If you're going to be out and doing jobs, you might as well start building a portfolio. Start capturing those jobs that you're actually doing. Just take a moment, snap before and after pictures, because what I call that is building out what's called proof assets.”   Why is a portfolio a must-have when you're aiming to get a lot more leads and position yourself as a credible business that stands out against the competition? How do you create before and after pictures for that?   10:04 – “What I like to tell our clients is get into the habit of some kind of system or protocol and how you go about doing a job or onboarding a client, so then you literally can have a checklist and be like, cool.”   Matt shares tips on the importance of getting into the habit of having a system or protocol that's built right into every job. He also talks about getting into the habit of getting reviews and using that to attract more clients, highlighting why you should only ask for a testimonial when your clients are happy and excited.   16:19 – “A golden nugget that you can start implementing that I guarantee you not a lot of landscapers are doing is you can start looking for ways to get people's attention by adding value into your service with something free that you throw in instead of discounting something.”   On giving out freebies, discounts, and warranties: Which is more effective if you want to get people's attention and stand out against competitors?   18:46 – Want a FREE copy of Matt's book, “Digital Marketing Secrets for Contractors”? Find out how and where to get yours now!   20:24 – “Google ads are going to be more expensive and more competitive. Just because it's been around longer, there's a lot more competition on there. But the thing is that Google ads is going to be a more qualified lead that you get from there.”   What is the best route to get into advertising? Comparing Google ads to Facebooks ads for beginners and close clients   26:35 – “What I see a lot of is people going way too wide with their services way too soon. If you're a newer landscaping business, then stick to one or two things that you can really rock, and you're the go-to guy for that.”   “Niche down, a scale that, become the go-to guy, and then start going wider”: The importance of niching down and focusing on one niche before going wide on your services   29:59 – Connect with Matt Thibeau     Key Takeaways   “If you're going to be out and doing jobs, you might as well start building a portfolio. Start capturing those jobs that you're actually doing. Just take a moment, snap before and after pictures, because what I call that is building out what's called proof assets.”   “If you wait like a week later, and then you say, ‘Hey, can you give us a review?' then you're risking that maybe he got in a fight with his wife when you send that email, or maybe something happened in his family that's just bad, or maybe he got fired from his job or whatever. Obviously, now, your review isn't going to be the top priority, or maybe you're risking that his emotional state isn't going to be in the right state to catch him. So when he's in that moment or she, and they're saying like, ‘Wow, you're so amazing,' you want to catch it right there. You want to catch them in that peak state of excitement because that's a window of time that's limited.”   “A golden nugget that you can start implementing that I guarantee you not a lot of landscapers are doing is you can start looking for ways to get people's attention by adding value into your service with something free that you throw in instead of discounting something.”   “In your first couple of years, Google ads might be something that might be a little bit further down the line for you. So then that means that Facebook ads would be a really good option to start with. Definitely, you're going to have to have fewer quality leads that come through that, but you're going to be able to get into the advertising game less expensively and be able to start generating your own leads and not just rely on referrals.”   “Niche down, and then really, really scale that and become the go-to guy for that, and then start going wider.”     Connect with Matt Thibeau   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/matt.thibeau/ Facebook Group: Renovation Contractor Success YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@mattthibeau   Website: https://savantmarketingagency.com/   Connect with Keith    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thelandscapingemployeetrap Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/keithkalfas/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@keith-kalfas Website: https://www.keithkalfas.com/     Resources/People Mentioned:   My Website: Official Site Keith Kalfas Matt's book: Digital Marketing Secrets for Contractors FREE mp3 download of Matt's book: https://contractormarketingbook.com/ Savant Marketing Agency: https://savantmarketingagency.com/   Jobber: www.getjobber.com/keith Ballard Products: www.ballard-inc.com/ Jill's Office: www.jillsoffice.com/    

This is the Weight and Healthcare newsletter! If you like what you are reading, please consider subscribing and/or sharing!If you have read this newsletter for any period of time, you've read my accounts of how pharmaceutical company Novo Nordisk has been using extremely shady marketing practices (many taken from the playbook that Purdue Pharma used to push oxycontin) to promote their drugs for weight loss. Things likePutting doctors on their payroll to promote their drugs to the media without disclosing their ties to the NovoCreating astroturf organizations that claim to be advocacy groups for higher-weight people but are, in fact, funded by Novo and other pharma and weight loss surgery groups.Marketing their drug through Grand Rounds presentationsCreating PSAs and Sponsored Content using people who (you can't make this stuff up) play doctors on TVCo-opting the concept and language of anti-weight-stigma activists in order to sell their weight loss drugsAnd I'm far from the only person talking about this.Mikey Mercedes has publicly called this out. Louise Adams from Untrapped has been all over it  (I had the chance to join Louise Adams and Fiona Willer on Louise's Podcast All Fired Up to talk about this)Asher Larmie, The Fat Doctor, has also been talking about thisAnd there are plenty of others.Part of the issue is that in the United States pharma companies are allowed to market direct-to-consumers , and the rules and regulations that exist are often loosely enforced. That's why I was thrilled to learn that The Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry (ABPI,) a trade association that works in England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland in partnership with the government and the NHS on behalf of their members, had suspended Novo Nordisk for being in breach of the ABPI code of practice.Interestingly, just a month ago, the president of ABPI was Novo Nordisk UK General Manager and Corporate Vice-President Pinder Sahota. Sahota stepped down from the board in February “to avoid an ongoing process around a Novo Nordisk ABPI Code of Practice breach becoming a distraction from the vital work of the ABPI.”The complaint was made to The Prescription Medicines Code of Practice Authority (PMCPA) which is “the self-regulatory body which administers the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry (ABPI) Code of Practice for the Pharmaceutical Industry, independently of the ABPI. It was established by the ABPI on 1 January 1993.”The complaint centers around a LinkedIn post offering practitioners a free “weight management” course. The only “weight management” treatment covered in the course was GLP1-RA drugs. Novo Nordisk was, at the time, the only company selling these drugs. The course was “sponsored” (paid for) by Novo Nordisk, but that was not clear in the LinkedIn Ad.Not only did this “course” offer information, but they also offered a free Patient Group Direction (PGD). Per the NHS a PGD is  “a written instruction for the sale, supply and/or administration of medicines to groups of patients who may or may not be individually identified before presentation for treatment. May or may not be identified means an individual can either be known to the service/have an appointment (e.g. a baby immunisation clinic) or not be known in advance of presenting at a service (e.g. a walk in centre).PGDs are not a form of prescribing. PGDs allow health care professionals specified within the legislation to supply and/or administer a medicine directly to a patient with an identified clinical condition without the need for a prescription or an instruction from a prescriber. The health care professional working within the PGD is responsible for assessing that the patient fits the criteria set out in the PGD.”The complainant pointed out that the PGD was part of what was being offered to individual health professionals by Novo Nordisk, that it had a value, and that it was being given to individuals for their own personal benefit to run private clinics. The complainant suggested that this amounted to bribing health professionals with “an inducement to prescribe.”The complainant noted that on the website the course had been run several times, so it was likely that a large number of health professionals had received this offer.The ABPI review panel found that the training was provided by a third party, but attendees and PGDs were sponsored by Novo Nordisk. The training mentioned three drugs, the first two (orlistat and naltrexone/bupropion) were presented as having significant side effects and contraindications, while the third drug, Novo's Saxenda, did not include side effect information (though they are significant) and the training noted that Saxenda could be provided by an appropriate health professional with a valid PGD (which was provided by the course.)The training included 21 slides about Saxenda, but no such detail on the other two drugs.Sponsorship of third party trainings by drug companies are permissible by APBI “only if there had been a strictly arm's length arrangement with no input by the company and no use by the company.” In this case, the agreement between the training provider and Novo stated that “Novo Nordisk will be in attendance at training meetings and will be given delegates to follow up” and the panel found that “Novo Nordisk had reviewed the training materials used on the course for medical and factual accuracy.”The panel concluded that “the course (webinar and e-learning) was, in effect, promotional material for Saxenda for which Novo Nordisk was responsible”The Panel found that “the webinar, in effect, promoted Saxenda which Novo Nordisk was responsible for, and considered that Novo Nordisk's involvement in relation to such promotion, including that its medicine would be discussed in detail, was not made sufficiently clear at the outset. Therefore, a breach of the Code was ruled. Novo Nordisk's appeal on this point was unsuccessful.”The contract between Novo and the third party was signed in February 2020, with the intention that 13,000 professionals be trained over 2 years, each of whom were to be provided a PGD making Novo Nordisk's maximum contract £357,500 (about $455,578 USD). As of July 1, 2021, 4,399 health professionals had completed the training and 599 PGDs had been activated.The Panel found that “the provision of funding by Novo Nordisk for the PGD was clearly linked to the promotion of Saxenda; the Panel did not consider there could be any intention other than to directly increase the use of Saxenda. Furthermore, the Panel noted that the cost of the provision of the PGD to prescribe Saxenda was given to individual health professionals. Such funding to individual health professionals did not meet the requirements of the Code and was an inducement to prescribe, supply, administer and/or recommend Saxenda and the Panel therefore ruled a breach of the Code. Novo Nordisk's appeal on this point was unsuccessful.”“The Panel considered that the arrangements between Novo Nordisk and the training provider, particularly in relation to the PGD, brought discredit upon, and reduced confidence in, the pharmaceutical industry. A breach of Clause 2 was ruled. Novo Nordisk's appeal on this point was unsuccessful.”Novo Nordisk's decided to appeal on the basis that they didn't know it was a breach. This backfired spectacularly.The Appeal Board was “very concerned that Novo Nordisk did not recognise that this was a large-scale Saxenda promotional campaign which Novo Nordisk knowingly paid for and which was disguised. In the Appeal Board's view the gravity of the breaches was compounded by Novo Nordisk's failures to recognise that its own behaviour was not compliant with the Code…The Appeal Board was concerned about the potential impact on patient safety of providing unbalanced information to a wide audience, particularly given that the arena of weight loss was a highly emotional arena, and particularly given the lack of balance of Saxenda's safety profile and side effects when comparing it with its competitors.”The Appeal Board decided to publicly reprimand Novo Nordisk for “its failings and the potential impact on patient safety.” They also ordered an audit and decided that “the circumstances were so egregious that a report to the ABPI Board was the only appropriate course of action.”The ABPI Board unanimously decided that further action must be taken, and while they chose not to expel Novo outright, they noted that this option could be exercised at a later date. While a majority wanted to immediately suspend Novo Nordisk's membership, they didn't reach a 75% threshold and so decided to conduct an audit.Subsequent to that audit they determined that Novo Nordisk's actions were ““likely to bring discredit on, or reduce confidence in, the pharmaceutical industry” and suspended them for two years, with reinstatement pending a future audit.In Part 2 we'll talk about some investigative journalism that caught Novo Nordisk in more shady marketing practices. Did you find this post helpful? You can subscribe for free to get future posts delivered direct to your inbox, or choose a paid subscription to support the newsletter and get special benefits! Click the Subscribe button below for details:Liked this piece? Share this piece:More research and resources:https://haeshealthsheets.com/resources/*Note on language: I use “fat” as a neutral descriptor as used by the fat activist community, I use “ob*se” and “overw*ight” to acknowledge that these are terms that were created to medicalize and pathologize fat bodies, with roots in racism and specifically anti-Blackness. Please read Sabrina Strings Fearing the Black Body – the Racial Origins of Fat Phobia and Da'Shaun Harrison Belly of the Beast: The Politics of Anti-Fatness as Anti-Blackness for more on this. Get full access to Weight and Healthcare at weightandhealthcare.substack.com/subscribe

Let me tell you, folks, The Beer Engine is a fantastic podcast. Griff and Tony, they're great guys, they know their beer. And let me tell you, that Philly cheesesteak they talked about on the show, it was a disaster. Two hours for delivery? Can you believe it? Sad! But you know what, that's not even the best part of the show. The real winner is Tony's side project beer. It's going to be huge, believe me. And that game they play, Untrapped, it's a tournament of flagship beers. It's tremendous, just tremendous. I give The Beer Engine a solid 10 out of 10. A real winner.Follow us on Instagram: @beerenginepod Email us: beerengineshow@gmail.comGive us a tip: ko-fi.com/beerenginepodcast ★ Support this podcast ★

This is the Weight and Healthcare newsletter! If you appreciate the content here, please consider supporting the newsletter by subscribing and/or sharing!As the diet industry works hard to co-opt the language of weight-neutral health and fat liberation and misuse it to sell weight loss interventions, I'm seeing more and more “anti-weight bias” trainings that are actually just diet industry marketing in disguise.Sometimes the trainers are very aware of what they are doing, sometimes they are actually well-meaning but simply duped by diet culture. Regardless, this is especially dangerous since the attendees leave thinking that they've learned how to reduce or eliminate weight stigma, when in fact what they've learned is how to be uncompensated, unwitting marketers for the diet industry, increasing weight stigma in the process.Here are some common red flagsThe trainer is one or more of the following:* Involved in “ob*sity medicine” * Paid to sell/prescribe/provide weight loss interventions* Taking payments from the weight loss industry* Represents an astroturf organization like the Ob*sity Action Coalition, Ob*sity Society etc.Taking the position that “I don't want to stigmatize fat people, but I want to dedicate my career to eradicating them and making sure that no more ever exist” is not an anti-weight stigma stance.You cannot be invested (ideologically or monetarily) in anti-fatness (aka anti-ob*sity) and be anti-weight stigma, they are mutually exclusive positions.The training uses pathologizing/person first languageThe words “ob*se” and “overw*ight” were literally made up to pathologize and medicalize higher-weight bodies. “Overw*ight” is inherently shaming (as it indicates that a body is “over” whatever is being considered a “correct” weight,) and “ob*se” comes from a Latin word that means “to eat until fat,” so much more stereotype than science there. Person-first language (saying person with ob*sity, person affected by ob*sity, person with overw*ight etc.) does NOT come from weight-neutral health community or fat liberation community. It was co-opted from disability community (where it is controversial) by the weight loss industry in the service of their goal of declaring that simply existing in a higher-weight body (regardless of any measure or concept of health) is a “chronic lifelong health condition” (that requires their profit-driving interventions.) This is not about reducing stigma, it's about increasing the bottom line of the weight loss industry.The training suggests that weight loss is a solution for weight stigmaIf they list bullying, lack of accommodation, or other types of weight stigma as a reason that people need access to weight loss interventions (including and especially drugs and surgeries) then they are inciting bias, not reducing it. While weight stigma is real and does real harm, and fat people are allowed to make whatever choices they want in dealing with it, in an anti-bias training it is wildly inappropriate to teach that oppressed people should have to change themselves (including risking their lives and quality of life with dangerous and/or expensive weight loss interventions,) to escape oppression. Teaching that oppressed people should change themselves to suit their oppressors is not an anti-stigma position. Even if someone believes that fat people are less healthy, healthism does not justify weight stigma.If the curriculum is not focused on creating a world that fully affirms and accommodates fat people, then it's likely diet industry propaganda.They suggest that the “real” injustice is a lack of access to weight loss interventionsI'm seeing this more and more from people who work for/take payments from the weight loss industry. They try to claim that the true injustice and stigma is that some people don't have access to their dangerous and expensive interventions. This has, actually, nothing to do with reducing weight stigma and, instead, is part of the weight loss industry's long game to get their procedures covered by insurance, which will vastly increase profits.Playing the Rename GameThere is definitely a place in anti-bias training for discussing language. However, if, instead of working to dismantle stigmatizing diet culture concepts, they are just renaming them (ie: instead of “willpower” use “commitment,” instead of “ideal weight” use “goal weight” etc.) then they are just repackaging diet culture.Reducing bias isn't about using different words for the same harmful concepts and practices, it's about dismantling the biased paradigm and using words that create a new paradigm (instead of “ob*se” use fat/higher-weight, stop conceptualizing weight as ideal, healthy, a goal etc.)They claim that the problem is that there isn't enough anti-fat educationIf they are claiming that healthcare practitioners and others should receive more education about pathologizing fat people and prescribing/recommending weight loss interventions, this is a weight loss marketing seminar, not an anti-bias training.  NovoNordisk is involvedHaving made (and continuing to make) a literal fortune from price gouging on insulin, NovoNordisk is bringing this same attitude (and the Perdue Pharma Oxycontin marketing playbook) to their weight loss drug Wegovy, which they promised their shareholders would be a massive profit-driver. I wrote more about this here. You can also check out this episode of the excellent podcast Untrapped during which I got to talk about this with the brilliant Louise Adams and Fiona Willer! Their message is “don't blame fat people, but do focus on eradicating them”If they are only admitting the fact that weight isn't a simple matter of calories in/calories out so that they can use that as a reason to promote diet drugs and weight loss surgeries then, again, you are not at an anti-stigma training, you are at a marketing seminar for the diet industry. (Even worse if they are acting like they just discovered this fact, when true anti-weight stigma and fat liberation activists have been screaming it from rooftops for literal decades.) Bottom Line:A true anti-weight bias/anti-weight stigma training de-pathologizes fatness and promotes a world that fully affirms and accommodates fat people. While there may be harm reduction models that fall short of this, if any of the red flags above are present, it tell me that I should do even more digging about who is creating/funding/providing this training, and who is profiting from the ideas presented. Please feel free to put other red flags that you have noticed in the comments below.Did you find this newsletter helpful? You can subscribe for free to get future newsletters delivered direct to your inbox, or choose a paid subscription to support the newsletter and get special benefits! Click the Subscribe button for details:Like this piece? Share this piece:More ResearchFor a full bank of research, check out https://haeshealthsheets.com/resources/*Note on language: I use “fat” as a neutral descriptor as used by the fat activist community, I use “ob*se” and “overw*ight” to acknowledge that these are terms that were created to medicalize and pathologize fat bodies, with roots in racism and specifically anti-Blackness. Please read Sabrina Strings: Fearing the Black Body – the Racial Origins of Fat Phobia and Da'Shaun Harrison: Belly of the Beast: The Politics of Anti-Fatness as Anti-Blackness for more on this. Get full access to Weight and Healthcare at weightandhealthcare.substack.com/subscribe

This week on The BlkPrint, J5 and Josh Peas keep cool through a scorching week online -- literally and figuratively. Tune in for stories of 70-inch TV's, Nike's new marketing tactics, YouTube review culture, Lil Baby's 'Untrapped' documentary and Michael K Williams' controversial role in 'Lovecraft Country'. Tune in after this episode for a full replay of 8/31's BlkPrint Radio LIVE on Amp, featuring our special guest A-Plus!-- TIMESTAMPS --1:16 Holiday Recordings Are Nice!2:21 Salute To The General4:46 Walls Influence Bad Decisions8:09 St. Louis Paper Bag Money10:02 It's Been A Scorcher12:13 Nest Apps15:09 Earth Is On Fire, Clearly16:28 Latest Community Updates20:07 The Price of the Brick22:33 Damn Your Marketing Tactics, Nike!25:00 Shy Peas28:13 Never A Big Dunk Guy30:22 Supreme Turning The Faucet On33:57 #Fellas With The Always-On Display34:41 Lil Baby's ‘Untrapped' Documentary36:26 Presence As An Artist38:33 Who's Getting The Drake Doc?41:08 Rap Family Trees44:20 Lemme Ask Young Guru47:22 Wanting To Be Wayne51:03 Lovecraft Country's Actual Issues53:33 #StandOnBusiness55:11 Wrestling Fanatics59:02 This Has To Look Fucking Stupid1:00:13 Protecting Mentals

Sometimes working hard in your business is all you can do to get started. In this episode, Keith Kalfas shares his story going from broke with no direction to building a successful landscaping business. He also has his own YouTube channel and podcast documenting his process that has gotten him to where he is today. To learn more about Keith's business, visit: http://keithkalfas.com/ To get help starting or growing your landscape lighting business, visit: https://landscapelightingsecrets.com Subscribe to my YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/c/LandscapeLi... Subscribe to the Lighting For Profits podcast here: http://lightingforprofits.com Check out Emery Allen's products here: https://emeryallen.com

Loon Speaks on being at the premier of Lil baby #untrapped Documentary on Amazon prime WIth Qc Pee Coach K Lil Baby And the inspiration from it, he also gets into The history with Quando Rondo and the Internet and was he affected or tricked by the internet into adding fuel to the fire after the King Von incident. Speaks about the animated Rapper and how The labels and thirsty for control of the artist without push back, Also says how does Bored Ape Feel In comparison to the Animated Rapper. - Fetty Was Pleading Guilty , Falling From Number 1 -Freddie Gibbs Vs Benny The Butcher  - Charlamagne Responds to Recents Shots  -Jay Z vs On God Did, Was A Shot At Ross in it -Stop Misrepresenting Pictures WIth Rappers -Kanye West Affect On Dj Khaled's Album & Music  -600 Breezy Compares Durk and Von -Lil baby Run & How he still has not really felt The affects of the Impact & More Tap in Monday @ midnight Cst Audio

In this episode of Finally Friday, we review the sequel Orphan: First Kill and the best new, hip-hop rapper documentary out, Untrapped: The Lil Baby Story.

Justin and Micah open by discussing Amazon's documentary on Lil Baby and give their thoughts on documentaries for rappers in general (1:45). They follow recapping the news of the artificial intelligence rapper FN Meka and finish by discussing ‘Prey,' ‘Soul Hackers 2,' and ‘House of the Dragon' (31:17). Hosts: Justin Charity and Micah Peters Associate Producer: Stefan Anderson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Brittany and Joy unpacked their thoughts and feelings of Lil Baby's documentary, “Untrapped.” They reflected on what's happening in their lives that's not longer serving them…this episode is a moment of reflection for all of us. Growth is the goal and it's time to let go of things that are no longer serving us. Keep up with us! @joyjoelene @brittanybriannaa @officialback2her --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/back2her/support

Today on DX Daily, hosts Ashia Skye and Ayeeedubb discuss a plethora of topics including: French Montana's celebration for his diamond-selling song, Benny the Butcher and Freddie Gibbs' ongoing social media beef/virtual back-and-forth, Joey Badass' sit down with Teyana Taylor to discuss relationships, and Lil Baby's new documentary, "Untrapped". Other topics include, new singles from Lil Tjay and Offset, new albums from J.I.D. and DJ Khaled, and an epic new verse from Jay-Z.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Tips on today's show feed off the wise Keith Kalfas. Think about how you spend your time, what you hate doing, and what makes you the most money. What should you do to increase doing what you like, making more money, and eliminating the rest? Delegate, find a free lancer, order your groceries, and more. Listen in for some potential life changing advice. Oh and we talk about a fun encounter I had at the gas station this week. Thanks for listening!SUPPORT US ON BUY ME A COFFEEAll support goes towards equipment to make it sound better and come out regularly!Follow us on Instagram @lawncaretogetherFollow us on Instagram @bladesllcFollow us on Facebook @bladesllc.LawnServicesSubscribe to our YouTube Channel!

Are you currently trapped in an infinite set of challenges that have been overwhelming you for a long time now? Are you aware of the psychological constructs you've lived with all this time? How do we really build a successful life? How do we really live the life we've been dreaming about? In today's episode of the Untrapped podcast, Rob joins us again as we discuss sacred stewardship in line with the importance of dealing with the identification we have with what runs in our minds. Here, we talk about quantum reality as we counter mental constructs that we've been led to believe since we were a child. Untrap yourself in your psychological time and be present in the NOW. Inspire and aspire before your life expires.     “It's harder the more deeply identified your identification with your psychology is, but you always have the ability to improve upon it. You've been granted the resources to do it naturally. In fact, if you could peel off all of the mental fiction, that's what would be left. You don't have to find or build it. You've already been given it.”   –  Rob     Why do you have to listen to today's episode.   03:03 – A map is not the reality; it is just an abstraction. Same as how your mind is not who you are but is a tool you should maximize towards a better life. 06:29 – There may be times when we confuse quantum reality with mental constructs. Think not about the past. Think not about the future. Instead, be present in the NOW. 11:02 – What are the differences between fear, anxiety, and worry? Learn from Rob's perspective. 18:13 – You get addicted because you become dependent on something outside of you, even when the truth is that you are not benefitting from it; you just believe that you do. 23:08 – Rob defines ‘sacred stewardship' with me as we discuss how one can truly understand and accept it.     Key Takeaways   “Once you get access to that grounding, when you find the ground, it's like you're swimming and you're kicking, and you're hyperventilating, but at some point, you notice in the middle of this black sea, there's a little island that you can stand on. When you find that thing, you become grounded. It's like you can channel everything through that.”   “The mind is not who we are; it's a tool that we've been granted.”   “Fear is something you know, and it's happening now, so fear is a present response. Worry is something that's known but is not happening now, so you're rehearsing for fear. Anxiety is something unknown that's not happening now, so the ego tries to define it, and now you're creating a layer of worry over the top of your anxiety.”   “When you add anything to I am, it's something you have, and you can't be what you have.”   “It requires grounded consciousness to truly accept sacred stewardship, to understand what it even means.”   “Sacred stewardship is taking that sacred gift, that uniqueness, that deep passion, that deep I am-ness, and accepting that that is something that you have to give.”     Connect with Keith   Facebook Instagram  YouTube LinkedIn Website     Resources/People Mentioned:   My Website: Official Site Keith Kalfas My Podcast Page: The UNTRAPPED Podcast  Dr. Wayne Dyer: Website Essentia Water: Website Dr. Joe Dispenza: Website Gregg Braden: Website Are you looking to maximize your productivity in the field? Ballard Products has over 300 products to help you get the most out of your efforts every day. Use Keith's promo code “Keith 10” and save 10% off anything in the online store. If you're looking for probably the greatest software ever to run your business, go to www.getjobber.com/keith and receive 20% off your first six months once you use Keith's link to sign up. Please leave us a well-written, positive 5-star review if you liked the show. You may click here

Mr Steve Matson, director of family ministries, offers us this Lenten reflection

In diet culture it's hard for most of us to feel comfortable in our bodies, let alone LIKE them. But what if it's possible to burst through this thin-ideal bubble and experience the joy, the light, the MAGIC of our bodies? My guest this week, artist and speaker Kathryn Max, has done just that, and you simply MUST hear their story! Kathryn's art is a powerful expression of tenderness, compassion & unconditional body acceptance. It's so beautiful - let's get all fired up with LOVE! Show Transcript Intro: Welcome to All Fired Up. I'm Louise your host, and this is the podcast where we talk all things anti-diet. Has diet culture got you in a fit of rage? Is the injustice of the beauty ideal getting your knickers in a twist? Does fitspo make you want to SPITspo? Are you ready to hurl if you hear one more weight loss tip? Are you ready to be mad, loud and proud? Well, you've come to the right place. Let's get all fired up. Welcome back to the podcast my delicious diet culture dropouts. Thank you so much for tuning in for yet another intriguing, deep dive down the anti-diet rabbit hole. I want to start with huge love to you all and thank you for continuing to listen and support this podcast, which as you know, is completely produced and put out by me on my lonesome, alongside a whole lot of editing. And I really appreciate your messages of love and support, especially during this year where things have become pretty rocky with getting the podcast out in a predictable way, I'm really pumped about 2022, and I've got big things of what I can't wait to share with you next year. But in the meantime, I really appreciate your listening. And if you love the All Fired Up podcast, help get the message out there by rating and reviewing. A five star review is always good, wherever you get your podcasts or preferably maybe with apple podcasts, because I'm really trying to target that. The more this message gets out, the more likely it is that diet culture falls onto its knees and I can go off and become a florist like I've always wanted. And if something about diet culture is pissing you off, let's get it off your chest, send it to me. Send your rage straight into my inbox - louise@untrapped.com.au. Tell me what's bugging you. It could be something that happening in your local community, could be a diet that's getting pushed in your social media or just something that you've heard around the traps that's really getting up your nose about living in diet culture. I want to hear it. I'm your agony aunt for all things diet, so send that to my email address. Free stuff, alert who doesn't love stuff that's for free. I have amazing E-Book called Everything you've Been Told About Weight Loss is Bull Shit, and that was co-written with the glorious Dr. Fiona Willer, dietician and amazing podcaster from the Unpacking Weight Science podcast. In this classic resource, we have stuff that's full of fun facts to help you push back against diet culture's bullshit. Essentially, we bust top 10 myths about the relationship between weight and health. And we give you heaps of scientific articles and resources and overviews, giving you the truth about the relationship between weight and health and just how much bullshit is being fed to us. It's an excellent resource. It's completely free. You can download it from the Untrapped website, untrapped.com.au. I encourage you, if you haven't already got a copy, to grab it and share as far and wide as possible; friends, family, health professionals, everyone needs to hear this message. More free stuff. If you have been living in diet culture and you find that you have found it difficult to be at ease in your body - ie. if you're a human living in diet culture, this eCourse called Befriending your Body is completely free. It's created by me and in it I send you an email once a day for 10 days. And it's like a little love letter to you every day for 10 days, giving you some small messages of self-compassion and practices of self-compassion, which are all designed to help you start looking at your body through a different lens, through the lens of compassion, support, friendship, appreciation, respect, and liberation. The befriending your Body eCourse is really easy, it doesn't take too much time out of your day, and as I said, it's completely free. So if you're tired of struggling and you're looking for something completely different and something pretty urgent; this can be with you in seconds. All you need to do to download the Befriending your Body eCourse is go to my Insta, which is untrapped_au and click on the link in the bio and you will see the Befriending your Body eCourse sitting there waiting to befriend you. Huge hello and big love to everyone in the Untrapped online community. Without Untrapped this podcast wouldn't be able to be produced. Untrapped is an online masterclass in the art of everything anti-diet. And it was co-created by me and 11 other health professionals working in this space. It's an incredible program. Very comprehensive, all online so you can do it at your own pace. And in it, we go through all kinds of stuff like recognizing and waking up from die-culture bull shit, reconnecting in with your body signals and repairing your relationship with food, with your body and with moving your body joyful ways. One of my favorite aspects of the Untrapped masterclass is the online community that we've created. We've been running since 2017. Can you believe it? And we have built up this incredible group of people we meet every week in a Q and A, and we've completely bonded. And I think most of the power of Untrapped is in this community. So if you are looking for a change and if you don't want to do it on your own, think about joining us in Untrapped. You can find out more from looking at untrapped.com.au and we would absolutely love to have you. So, on with the show, my guest this week, oh my gosh. I mean, this is a completely mind-blowing episode that I hope that you've got somewhere nice to relax and really take some time to absorb the awesomeness of what you're about to hear. So look, it's Christmas time, diet culture bull shit, no matter where you live on the planet, it's at an all time high at this time of year, the pressure is on. It is high season for the weight loss industry. And look, we are all feeling a little bit more fragile than usual, thanks to the ongoing bull shit of this year and living with this COVID pandemic. So it's been a complete mind-fuck, and look, you know, you all know how much I love to rant and complain about diet culture, but I think we need a bit of love, and that's what this episode is all about. In this Christmas season, let's pivot into something completely different. So my guess this week, Kathryn, formally Kathryn Hack, now known as Kathryn, or you might know her on Instagram as fat_mystic_art or Fat Mystic. This is an amazing human. Kathryn is a fat liberated artist and speaker, and they, sorry. And they are the pronouns. They have many intersecting identities including being fat, queer, disabled, poly, ADHD, lipedema and ex-evangelical. Are you fascinated? Because I certainly was completely fascinated by this human, when I saw their art in their Instagram feed. It took my breath away and like kind of hit me in many areas as you're going to hear about in our conversation. So, I really don't have more words and I don't want to give anything away, but I think your mind will be blown by this amazing episode interview individual. So without further ado, I give you me and the glorious Kathryn. Louise: So Kathryn, thank you so much for coming on the show. Kathryn: I'm very happy to be here, Louise. Thank you for having me. Louise: So tell me what's firing you up. Kathryn: Well, interestingly, I would say that being fired up, hasn't really been my lived experience recently with whether it's diet culture or any kind of oppressive systems. They definitely can feel discouraging, but I have a really deep practice of self-compassion. And what I have observed is that the more I live in a state of grace with myself, the more I am kind and consistently really gentle with myself, it's almost effortless for me to extend that kind of grace and compassion to other people while also having good boundaries. So I don't let people mistreat me because I live in a fat body or disabled body or because I'm queer or any of the identities that I live within. And yet, I don't feel fire about it. I don't feel anger exactly. I feel yeah, real contentment and peace and this journey and where it's brought me. And I feel a lot of joy in my life and the grace to handle the challenges that come in living in the body I live in. Louise: My goodness. Okay, everyone wants to know what cocktail is this self-compassion. This is so interesting. So you said you've got a really deep practice of self-compassion and that's what got you to this place of not being unimpacted, but not being affected in a negative way. Kathryn: And I think sometimes I might still be affected, but it's just that self-compassion is such an effective tool, that even if something does impact me negatively, I'm able to be present with that emotion with a deep resource of compassion and care, and so it just doesn't damage me. Like, I'll sort of let this emotion move through me. I'll feel it. I won't deny it. I won't suppress it. I definitely don't shove it down in my body like I used to. I just feel it, I'm present with it and then it sort of moves through. So the deep practice started a little while after I was first introduced to the fat liberation movement. It was intellectual information to me that, oh wow, some people are living in fat bodies and they're like, yeah, I'm fat, so what? And I was like, whoa, that was a revolutionary idea to me. I've lived in a fat body since puberty and I felt shame about it my whole life. Around the same time that I learned about fat liberation, I was also diagnosed with a chronic illness. The name of my chronic illness is lipedema. It's progressive, there's no cure for it, and it contributes to the size and shape of my body. It's understood to be a fat disorder, and it happens to accelerate during major hormonal changes. So most humans who have this experience, they see the onset around puberty. And then during childbearing years, during pregnancy specifically, there can be significant advancements, and then again around menopause. My experience was that I lived in a smaller but fat body for most of my life. And then after I had two kids, about 21 months apart, my body really changed radically. It impacted my mobility, I took up a lot more space in the world. And for the first several years, there was an incredible amount of shame there. Louise: I guess that built on the shame from puberty, you said like it had been there anyway. When were you diagnosed with lipedema? Kathryn: I was diagnosed in 2016. Louise: Okay, so that's fairly recent. Kathryn: It is actually. And that's kind of a fascinating thing. Like, I talk a lot on my art page about how much my life has changed, thanks to reconnect with my body and healing my relationship with my body. I would say that self-compassion is what helped do that. So first it was sort of the information, like there's humans out there and these brilliant activists that are brilliant feminist thinkers and like helping me to get new information about whether or not I'm allowed to exist as I am. I also want to say that humans in the disability justice movements are just so brilliant in how they articulate that dignity is not condition and ought not be. So, that was all really, really helpful information. And then what happened is I was able to apply the information by compassion, you know, like learning how to just sit with myself and feel my feelings and validate them and then genuinely out loud saying to myself, like "Kathryn, I'm so sorry." And then I'd be really specific; "I'm so sorry you don't deserve love because of the body you live in." And intellectually, I knew that sentence wasn't accurate, but in my body it felt true somewhere. And so, I would just acknowledge these things that were sort of limiting beliefs. And it was a limiting belief. I absolutely am worthy of love in the body I inhabit. And as I started to offer that specific lie, compassion and heal the pain that it caused, I suddenly was in relationships where I felt really loved and seen and valued and desired, and so it changed literally everything living in my body. Louise: How did you learn about self-compassion? Kathryn: Well, you know, it's interesting; it really first started with, with my body. So learning about fat liberation, I was reading everything I could get my hands on. And then also, I just am a very spiritually curious person. I spent most of my life inside Christian theologies. I was an ordained pastor for about a decade. And then I left that worldview because it was more and more confining, and I started to feel - even though I had sort of these incredible spiritual experiences, what I would now say is I think that divine doesn't care about dogma. I feel like the divine is willing to engage with us no matter where we are. And it really, really doesn't care about any dogma that we may bring into our desire to connect with whatever is out there, so as a Christian, and I was a Pentecostal Evangelical Fundamentalist Christian. Louise: Wow. Kathryn: Yeah, that's a mouthful, but yeah. And it's really rigid thinking, but also there's this Pentecostal element that is very metaphysical. There are a lot of interesting experiences. Things like speaking in tongues or getting sling in the spirit. And I had had an incredible experience after experience, after experience of feeling a sensation of being completely loved and accepted by what I would now call is just the divine or the universe, that something benevolent that loves me exists. And now I would even say like I'm part of it, like we're all sort of connected as consciousness, you know? I'm still very spiritual and I like to refer to myself as a Woo-Woo Bitch these days. Are we allowed to swear on this podcast? Louise: We encourage swearing on this podcast. Absolutely. Kathryn: That makes me happy. That was one of the first things that showed up when I stopped being a fundamentalist is I was aware of how much I had edited my language. And now swearing is my fucking favorite thing to do. Louise: It's my fucking favorite thing to do too. It's expressive. Kathryn: It is, and it feels freeing to me. So my body started to slow down kind of dramatically. I had had this outpatient surgery that was supposed to be a quick in and out kind of thing. And I had an incision rip and it meant that I was like literally in bed for about six or eight weeks. And then I finally am better enough that I can move around a bit, and then I immediately get vertigo. And it fascinating because in that particular window, I felt like my body was saying, "Kathryn, we're going to sit you the fuck down. We've got something to tell you." And it was an incredibly powerful time in my life where I stopped limiting my spiritual curiosity to what was sort of acceptable within Christian circles. And by that point, I was already no longer a fundamentalist, but I was still attending like a more liberal-minded Christian Church. And the person I was married to was a pre-devout kind of more liberal Christian. But I knew that Christianity was really important to them and our marriage. And it turned out if I allowed my evolution to take me beyond Christianity, that that relationship would end, and that is what ended up happening. But my body working so I could stop participating in culture, really. And I had two small kids, it was a really strange time. They had just kind of fend for themselves a bit more than their peers, because I just couldn't function. And my brain was like - my spirit, my brain, whichever was just curious. And we have like this amazing technology and our hands, and so I just was following my curiosity. Eventually, I mean, it took me lots of places. Like I did a little time of like, oh, I'm curious about tarot cards. And so I looked into that and then I was like, oh, I want to learn about like all of our chakras, and I even bought some like stones to like, you know. I took one of the online quizzes that talked about like, which one of my chakras needs more attention, you know, that's my clothes, I need to work on that. And so it was like a game. It was like fun. It was just following my curiosity. And in that space where I was just following anything that was shiny, I was reading more and more about self-compassion. And there was this very specific practice that I had read about and learned about that I started doing and telling my friends about and it was this thing where you literally say out loud to yourself, I'm so sorry. And then you be as specific as you can about the belief, even though intellectually, you know it may not true, but the painful thought and you just say, I'm so sorry, and you just hold space for yourself. And I don't know how it works, except that it does work and it just shifted those painful things. They just were allowed to move through me. Louise: Yeah. I love that because you're bringing like mindful kindness to the beliefs and thoughts that are happen in the moment, so I'm so sorry that you just thought, oh, I'm so disgusting. Kathryn: Yeah. Louise: And so you're pausing, you're not letting it kind of just sink in, and you're apologizing to yourself - so powerful. Kathryn: And it's really been the most affected, I would say, on the old beliefs that have sort of been sneaky. We've been very programmed by the cultures we grew up in. That's why fat phobia is so rampant, you know, anti-fat is everywhere. It it's like a global phenomenon that fatness is bad. That's kind of fascinating. What the hell? Louise: The world is wrong and fat is bad. Kathryn: Yeah. But actually, and I think that's so interesting, and one of the things I really love about the fat community is that we are an international global group of humans, that are going to push back on this really stupid presumption that our bodies are wrong. And I don't know, it creates this really interesting energy of when you choose your own inner knowledge over the projected information. It is powerful. It's an empowering transition. And so, you turn the volume up of your own inner space, above the chatter of culture and you start to realize, you can do whatever the fuck you want. You can have whatever. Louise: You can wear what you want, you can have sex, you can enjoy hell out of yourself. Kathryn: It's all of it. Absolutely. Louise: For how long has life felt like that for you? Kathryn: It just keeps getting better and better and better. So, when I was experiencing that period of time where I was recovering from surgery and then ended up with vertigo, that was like, it felt like explosions, like my body expanded and my brain and my spirit was expanding. And I'd had this sort of metaphysical experience where I had this profound sensation that my physical body that was inhabiting was an allegory to this spirit size I was meant to embody in this. And I don't actually even talk about that that much, but it was huge in shifting my thinking about like whether or not my body was allowed. And not only is it allowed, it's powerful. When people see me, it's not hard to see that I am also quite free, but I live in a body that we're used to people seeing shame. Walk around in bodies like mine and they there's just shame. I's hard not to, because of how much conditioning we've been taught about fat, but I just don't have that. I don't have that energy. And so, people interact with me and I'm not easy to forget. Louise: Do people just not know what to do with you if you don't kind of obey that is not expected shame. Kathryn: I don't know if they... I'm not having those kinds of conversations with strangers. The humans are that are close to me, like they just see me. I'm a full human person. I do have this deep spiritual practice, but like I have hard days too and I have sad days and I reach out for support when I need it. I get frustrated with my kids and I complain about that. So yeah, it's just the humans that are in my life really see me. And then when I'm out in the world, I just don't live. I just am not anticipating. I remember living in a way where I anticipated hostility for the body I lived in and I felt hostility. Now I just don't anticipate hostility directed towards me. It just doesn't occur to me anymore. I don't know how, except that it was all this self-compassion, but this very dramatic shift is, can move through the world and I'm not anticipating hostility. I just assume that I get to be treated with the amount of dignity and love and care that I treat myself with. And if that doesn't happen to be the case where someone doesn't treat me the way I want to or expect to be treated, it just doesn't wreck me like it would've before. It just is like, oh, that's an anomaly. Like, I'm sorry, that person, they must be having a rough time. Like, how sad that they would feel the need to project their shit onto me. It's very clear to me that that's theirs. It's not shit my. I'm good. Louise: Oh, that's it, right? Because the self-compassion has kind of sunk in and made you kind of unstoppable. Kathryn: And what's funny is like unstoppable how, because I have a lot of limitations living in my body. I have a lot of limitations moving through the world. Like, my body doesn't fit in most public seating. I've had to do the both end of doing this internal work of, I know that I'm allowed to exist in the world with full dignity and I'm also someone ADHD, and so sometimes I have low executive functioning. Which means, I can be overwhelmed with the amount of extra labor that's required for me to like, make sure that that restaurant I want to go to with my friends is going to have seating that's going to work for my body. And so, I've been able to like my circle of friends and people I date, I've been able to invite them into this sort of tender space of, hey, would you actually help do some of the labor here? And I was pretty tentative about it at first because it felt really vulnerable, and they were so happy to. They were just so happy to. They were like, "That is okay Kathryn, we love your presence in our life. And of course, we're going to try to streamline this and make it less hard for you. You shouldn't have to work this hard, just go out and be in the world." Yeah, and so it is the both end. Both things are at once; I am unstoppable and this world is still not built for, to welcome a body like mine, I have to do in a lot of extra labor. Louise: Which is terrifically difficult, but how nice that you can like share this with friends who will then go out and advocate and take care of everything alongside you; you don't have to do it on your own. Kathryn: Yeah. It's a really beautiful thing. I think the work of getting free and liberation is an internal spiritual work. And then what happens is we get to see it lived out in human relationships because we are social creatures and it's got to be the both end. We're not meant to be alone, most of us aren't. And so, yeah, and then that was just a really - that took some compassion too. It was very tender when I first started saying out loud to my circles, like I want to be out in the world a little more and I'm noticing I'm saying no to invitations because it will be too hard. And then I'm like, oh, actually I can ask for help. Turns out, asking for help is its own kind of superpower. And culturally again, especially in Western cultures, we have been taught not to do that. Louise: Yeah. Don't impose on people, don't have needs, don't... that's terrific. Out of interest, who were the fat liberation people that you read for inspiration? Who your community now that you...? Kathryn: Let's see. So Sonya Renee Taylor's work was really impactful to me and the book, The Body's not an Apology. I really liked what I read from the author who wrote Shrill and now Lindsay-Anne Baker, The Will author. I can't remember her first name. Louise: I can't remember it either. Kathryn: Yeah. And then I just started following like the hashtags on Instagram. Instagram was really helpful in my evolution as well, because I love how you can just follow hashtags, like disability justice and fat liberation, haze, so all of that was really impactful. So it became like this big, beautiful soup of just taking in everything that was sort of out there and allowing it to change how I thought about things. Louise: I love that; a big, beautiful soup, because Instagram can also be like a treacherous shark infested ocean. Kathryn: The thing is like curating our feed too. I mean, it can be. But I think that internet has served me so well because social media is can reflect back to us our own energy sometimes. And whatever you're drawn to are attracted to you, you can unfollow and start following the stuff that makes you actually feel good, so it doesn't have to be that. It doesn't have to be that. Louise: No, I love my little haze bubble that I have on Insta and social media, speaking of which that's how I found you. Because I think I was scrolling through Being Nourished, their feed, Hilary and Dana and I saw this amazing picture of lady and it was just lit up with flowers and it was glowing, like literally like no shit glowing. And I was like, I just stopped. And I'm like, that is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. So since then, I was trying to find it and I couldn't find out anywhere. And then I found you and looked through your feed and your art and it was like how I think self-compassion looks like in art. I can't explain it very well, but it's like it moved me in my body. It was so beautiful see. And that's why I kind of tracked you down and finally found the beautiful painting, which is going to be up in my new office. Which ironically the new office is called Flourish at [unclear27:54]. Kathryn: Wow. Louise: And then the idea is that it's a big, beautiful like greenhouse full of plants and growth and beginning for people. And so, I wanted to feel it full of like art that showed that. That painting that I had seen is called Flourishing, so I can't wait to put it up there. I just want to talk about your art because it's just like a mind bogglingly awesome. How long have you been doing it? Kathryn: Not that long. I started really making body art, figurative art in 2018. I was sort of dabbling in 2017. I was sort of experimenting. I was 38. I'm 44, almost 44 now, but I was 38 before I could even call myself an artist. It just was things were, again, we have these limiting ideas sometimes. Like the idea that I was an artist felt so gatekeepy, like I wasn't fancy, I'm just up hot. Yeah, so I was 38 and I was like, oh my God, I've been calling myself crafty my whole life. But like the truth is, is that I am an artist. And then when, like I said, I describe how in the same window of time I had this lipedema diagnosis, this chronic illness and there's no cure, so my body will continue to evolve. And then they're just like, by the way, all of our bodies are continuing to evolve. We're in a constant change. And then fat liberation, that I was allowed to take space and have the body I lived in and I needed a way to marry these two ideas just to make peace with the fact that this is a reality of my life. My body is going to stay this way and progress. So up until that point, I just constantly was believing that like someday I would lose all the weight, you know, like most of us think, you know? So I had to decide, nope, if that never happens for me, I'm going to live my best life. So making art was the bridge and it was like, I wanted to see myself depicted beautifully in art and media, and so I just started playing around with it. And it's interesting because you know, you referenced the image flourishing and you said painting, it's actually not really a painting. It's digital. Louise: It's digital. I have no idea when it comes. Kathryn: We have these iPhones, and there's all these apps on there. I literally make all this art on my phone. Sometimes I like the aesthetic of mixed media, and so sometimes I'll do like mixed media art, like an abstract sort of thing. And then I can like take a photo of it and I can layer it into a silhouette. But yeah, we have all this software now where you can just like take a photo and then like strip away everything that's not the silhouette, and then I can layer and layer and layer. I can create a background, I can do all these things. I can just pull an image in and out of like 16 different phone apps, you know? And it was just plates. Something I can do while laying down and it doesn't require any art supplies that my kids are going to make a fucking mess out of. Louise: That is exciting. Kathryn: And it really helped me get into a state of flow where I could be like listening to an audio book and then like playing on my phone, making something beautiful. Here's the other interesting thing is that, in like summer of 2018, I started my Instagram and I was like, I'm going to make new art every day. I'm going to post something every single day, and I did that for six months straight. And there is really something powerful about adding creativity to whatever our work is. Like, what are you working on in your life human? Like, what's the thing that is asking for your attention, right? Is it body issue stuff, then find a creative outlet for that. It could be poetry. It could be writing short stories. It can be visual arts. It could be clay. I have this sculpture of myself that I made with, oh, I wonder if I can remember their name. There's this other, like the activist who I think is from Australia, actually. Louise: Yes, yes. And my God, what is happening to my brain? It's 6:00 AM. Ashley Bennett. It's Ashley Bennett from at bodyimage_therapist. Kathryn: She's delightful, and it was really fun to go to her class in San Francisco. And a bunch to us were in there with clay molding our own forms. And it was powerful to lovingly touch this clay, to like fill in where all of these fat roles are, you know, the volume of my big belly. It was just powerful. So whatever creative outlet attracted to, adding creativity to whatever your work is, somehow I think unleashes huge amounts of energy. It just opens us up in ways that I don't think just thinking about things could ever. Louise: I think you've nailed it. You're regularly visiting that place and reinforcing it, but just sort of intuitively finding this way of doing it. It shines out of it. I don't think I've seen art before, which embodies self-compassion, this stuff that you've done, I just love it. And I love how you've paired it with compassionate phrases, like be gentle with you. Kathryn: Yeah. Louise: And I love fat-trans queer loved, just full of love. It's too just incredible. And I particularly, yeah, I'll just keep blushing if I keep looking. I just encourage everyone to go and look at it. So this is really like a love story of you and your body. Kathryn: Well, okay. So maybe, right. My relationship, my body meant that my spiritual worldview shifted a great deal. How I interact with the world around me changed. It also meant that I ended a long term marriage that wasn't exactly a terrible marriage or anything, it's just we didn't resonate with each other anymore. I was no longer a Christian, that was really important to him. And as soon as I knew that that marriage was over, I was like, oh my God, I'm queer. Of course, I am. How did I not know that? You know? And so I spent so many decades in purity culture, I just was prohibited from exploring my own sexuality. And so, one of the things about being a late bloomer is the temptation to feel like a I've missed out on a lot of stuff. And again, like I felt all those feelings. I gave myself a lot of compassion. It would've been amazing to be having lots of gay sex when I was in my twenties, but that wasn't my experience. And so the cool thing is, is that I get to be a sexual being today in the body that I have, but as also as a person who's incredibly self-aware who is great communication skills, who is emotionally intelligent. And so, I'm navigating dating almost as if I'm a preteen or a teenager, but also I have all of this wealth of internal self-knowledge and self-compassion. Louise: So that's good make it like much more enjoyable than usual teen experiences. Kathryn: I'm having a fucking blast, yeah. And not that every date I go on is amazing. A lot of them are amazing. I'm also very interested in nontraditional relationship models, so I'm practicing solo polyamory. Another interesting thing to read about is something called relationship anarchy, which is just brilliant. It's just asking us to challenge all of these beliefs about what relationships are supposed to be and gender roles and like expectations we might have on a dynamic with another person. You actually get to invent that; you and that person get to make that up as you go, it gets to serve both of you, and it can be like anything you want it to be. I love that. I love the freedom of turning everything on its head. There's no external expectations on what my relationship with any one person needs to be. I get to decide that. They get to decide that with me. So yeah. Right out of the gate, you know, I came out as queer during the pandemic and then once enough of us were vaccinated, I'm out here dating, dating a lot. I'm having a good time. Louise: It's not easy to date in a pandemic. Wow, this is all so new. You're riding the wave. Kathryn: I'm riding this very big wave. Also one of the things that I've learned is that scarcity is a capitalist construct, and it fucks us up pretty bad, but we apply scarcity to everything. We definitely apply it to dating and it just doesn't feel true anymore. Like, people are coming out to the fucking woodwork to be like, hey, how you doing, can we date? And I'm like, yeah, let's go on date. Me and the body I inhabit, I'm a desired person that feels amazing. That feels amazing. Louise: Wow. That is the power of not limiting yourself. And that's the other kind of word that came to mind looking at your art is abundance. Kathryn: Yeah. Yeah. It feels so much better to live in this space. And I want to be really careful to say, it's not that I am in an elated state of being constantly. I really do have access to this like really high, high frequency sensation of joy and pleasure and abundance. But also, I still am inhabiting a human body that has chronic pain, that experiences big fatigue. I've had relationships end in a way that really hurt my feelings. And I've been afraid of things here and there too, you know? And so, it's just that in those times now I don't judge myself harshly. I can experience very, very big fatigue and just decide that everything I wanted to get done that day isn't going to get done and I'll go home and I will just rest and do whatever I need to do to get through that particular window. Louise: What would you offer yourself then? How do you stay compassionate in a moment like that? Kathryn: Well, what's interesting is that that's taken a while because I remember even just, I don't know, eight months ago I would have a fatigue spell and sometimes they would last up to like five days where it was just super hard to function for days. And the first day or two, I could be like, that's all right, I'm just going to roll with it. And then if it went on beyond that, it would start to feel scary because our brains have a tendency to be like, oh my God, this is my life now. And what I started to see though, was on the other side of a hard window, I felt more free somehow. And I don't know how to explain that. Sometimes we go through a hard time and then coming up out of it, there's just some kind of lift. And that had happened enough times that I started to trust it. So several weeks ago I had a rough spell and I didn't have that panic feeling. I just remembered like, oh, I've been through this before, like on the other side, I'm just going to feel more powerful. So in the time while I'm experiencing it, while I feel like really low energy, I just lay down as I needed to. My body is like, this is what's going to happen, this is how much rest we need and stop trying to qualify it. Like, I feel like I rest more than any human I've ever met, and I'm like, what? Really? More? How much more could I need? And my body's like, it doesn't need to be qualified like that. Like it's not about comparing it to other people, like you're going to need to lay down and rest somewhere. And so then I just keep myself occupied by listening to audio books or playing on my phone or meditating or whatever I want to do. That's a really powerful thing too. I stopped doing things that I was supposed to do. I literally only do what I want to do. Louise: I love this. Kathryn: There's some amount of privilege that comes with that. Like I'm separated, so I don't have to live with my ex anymore, but I was a stay-at-home parent before. And so, with child support and whatnot, I still get to like live as a stay-at-home parent and I have my art that I do and other things occupy my day and my time. I'm not needing to work 40 hours a week in order to live in the world, so I recognize that as a great privilege I get to have. But that being said, I still think being free on the inside is what's making me free. You know what I mean? Louise: Yeah, much more. I remember being at one of Hilary and Dana's retreats in 2016 and talking about how like... it was for embodiment, to be an embodied practitioner. About trying to get out of like the crowded city of our brain and down into the wilderness of our body - uncharted territory. And I remember us talking about that's where the freedom is, it's down there and it's not verbal, it's sort of felt. Kathryn: Yeah. And I would say that - like I said, I've been explaining who I am as a person, as someone who's quite spiritual, and that's true. But what I started to see is that in some spiritual communities, they would talk down about the body. They would say like, oh, this meat sack that we're in, you know, like your body is not who you really are, you are not your body. And I don't agree with that at all. I think our bodies are fucking magic. They hold so much intense wisdom. They will talk to us and teach us things. Our bodies have held all of our trauma our whole lives; just held it, just waiting for us to be ready to look at it again. And it has only ever been kind to us. And even when it's not working well or there's pain or any of those things, it's not out to get you, it's just trying to get your attention. And when we can turn into it and listen and believe that it's our friend I feel like it's multiverses within ourselves, like unending amounts of wisdom and love and compassion all in this physical form that we inhabit. Even if you just think about DNA, like our fucking DNA is ancient. You know what I mean? There's studies that talk about how like trauma can be passed down in your DNA. Like the stories that your body has, it's way more powerful than we give it credit for often. And so when we live our lives, we're not ruled completely by our minds, but we actually get to make decisions based on how does it feel in my body when I think about doing this thing? If we literally do the things that only make our body feel like, ah, expansive and open and relaxed, oh my God, your life will change. If you're constantly doing things to your body's like, "Oh, dread, dread, I don't want to, I'm going to make myself." Nope, nope, it doesn't serve you. Louise: This is an amazing conversation. I knew this would be an amazing conversation. There's so much in everything that you are saying, and it's learning how to do that I think that's difficult for people. Because like you said, we're so kind of stuck in our heads and so scared, and often I think it's that fear response that's in our body that stops us getting down or trauma cuts us off. So it is really interesting that you come to it in your late thirties and you come to it in a moment, like when your body just sort of calls it a day almost and says, oh, lie down for a few weeks, you're going to have to just be with me. Kathryn: Yeah. There's an account. I follow on Instagram called The Nap Ministry. And I can't remember who is in charge of it, but this really powerful black woman. And I just want to say too, like as a white woman in the privilege that I embody there, like the kind of freedom that I get to live in is absolutely because of the work of black women and fems and indigenous people. Like, I'm really grateful for all the labor and the work that they've done to help kind of illuminate the path forward. So this particular person who has the Instagram, The Nap Ministry, they just blew my mind when they talked about like rest as revolution. Capitalism has really indoctrinated us with the idea that our worth is connected to our labor or our productivity. And then we live in systems that you literally can't live unless you do labor for often someone else. And that's really wrong. Human beings are not designed for that. That's a system that we all have grown up in and it's impacted how we think about ourselves. There was a time where human beings existed without having to go to work and labor in order to just stay alive. So to nap, napping being resistance to those capitalist ideas was a revolutionary idea to me. And that rest was how we honored all the people that went before us that weren't allowed to rest. And it absolutely - I really do credit my body stopping working and requiring so much rest with my ability to disconnect with these systems that control our thinking. You know what I mean? So I was out in the world less because in my bed napping more. And what that meant is I was spending more time in my own energy and the things that I was just naturally feeling curious about. And then I could follow my curiosity to the next step and the next step. In a spirit paradigm, you might say like your higher self is always going to guide you towards enlightenment if that resonates with you. But I would also say that my body had a very key role in that. My body was the one that arrested me and got my attention, my body demanded rest and I said, okay. And before I said, okay, I spent years pushing through like most of us do. You like buckle in, you like buck up, you push through and that's stupid. We don't have to do that anymore. You know what I mean? The idea that you were good because you hurt your body in order to achieve some task is really stupid. We don't have to do that anymore. We don't have to hurt ourselves anymore. We can be kind to ourselves. Rest is revolutionary. Louise: I love that. Absolutely love that. And I think especially now, you know, the last two years have been pretty shit for most people on the planet. And I don't know if this happened over there, but as we are coming out here in Australia, there's a lot of like exhaustion and a lot of anxiety coming back into, and fear of what's going to happen next step. People do need to rest more. We can get these messages, like you said, from the structures and systems that we need to kind of pull up our socks and lose the COVID kilos and, you know, whatever. And I'm finding for my clients that that kind of message like let's get back to normal, just doesn't resonate as much, is maybe we've had a bit more time to spend in reflection. Kathryn: Normal was very toxic. It really was. Normal has never been good or kind to human individuals. It has served these systems that are oppressive and that's all. And I think the pandemic forcing most of us to slow down to some degree, it means that we get to become disillusioned with how it was really shit before too. And no, not fucking going back to that. No, thank you. No, we're going to have to create something new. A lot of the kind of things that I'm listening to and reading about now is all anti-capitalist stuff. And the idea that we're in late stage capitalism is a pretty widespread idea at this point. And so, how we going to cope with that? How are we going to cope end of capitalism? Those of us who are adults now are probably, I don't know that it's going to be easy or fun. And again, that's why we have to do the internal work of like, I'm actually, okay no matter what, I'm going to be okay, and I'm going to be really fucking gentle with myself, because I don't know what the future holds. And sometimes uncertainty can be very scary. And again, we can offer ourselves compassion for that, but the truth is the more I live in a state of genuine compassion for myself, I'm very present in this exact moment and you know, that's a spiritual practice that most of us had heard about like be present, be present in it; it didn't resonate until I started to live in a state of compassion. And it's not that I'm trying to be present; I just am. I just am here. I'm just present with myself because I'm so kind to myself. I don't have to escape into the future to think it'll be better then. Oh my God, I've spent years thinking it'll be better then, when my body is smaller - I would escape in the future all the time. I don't do that anymore. My life is beautiful because I am so fucking kind to myself. And when I am this kind to myself, somehow the world is just way less hostile. And it doesn't mean there's not still a ton of unknowns; I'm just not afraid of the unknown anymore. Louise: You're amazing. That everything you just said is just brilliant - so inspiring. No matter what, just keep doing what you're doing, because you are like your art. You're just like glowing. It's amazing. Kathryn: Thank you. And the thing that I kind of want to reiterate is like, I know I can speak eloquently about some of these things. I am very human too, right? There's the both end. But if I can come to this state of being, that means it's available, like the amount of freedom that I get to live in. I realized a long time ago that I kind of wanted to be of service to the world in some way, you know, I was in vocational ministry, and the world who I was a part of really made perpetuate to this savior complex. And then I had religious trauma and I had like childhood trauma and I was definitely someone who was codependent for a lot of years, was codependent in my relationship with my spouse. And I feel like I've lived a very normal life, but I've started to taste freedom, and then the freedom just brought more freedom. And then that freedom brought even greater freedom. And so, I would very much like to say that existing as I am in the world now, it feels like it's accessible to people. Like being alive and free in the body inhabit might convince someone else that, oh my God, what if I could be more free too? And now I no longer feel like it's my job to save anyone. It's just not. Like, I really trust people on their journey. I trust you to follow your own curiosity and see what path that takes you on. But I being free in the world, I think perpetuates the idea that freedom is available to all of us. Louise: Yeah. And I think that's why it's so lovely to speak to you, and to know that this conversation gets the listen to by so many people. I think this part like of like finding that freedom through self-compassion, connected to your body specifically and inhabiting - I think that's really tough for a lot of people, and that's a bit that we can get stuck on. Like, we can kind of talk about I love fat liberation, and I love haze, and I love anti-diet, but I still don't feel okay in my body. Like I still can't really accept it, let alone inhabit it, let alone feel freedom in it, let alone expand. What you're talking about is I guess, perseverance with that compassion until it doesn't feel like an innate trick, but it feels like it's the portal and then you just sort of go down and inhabit. Kathryn: Yeah. And our brains do change, right? So, like it's the default. It wasn't always, it took some time and I didn't make myself do it. Like, this was really born out of when I realized I was only going to do what I wanted to do. And so, my meditative practice is really like when I'm laying my bed, I'll just take some deep breaths and I'll let my brain just sort of wander. I don't like any kind of dogma or high structure at all. Some of that might be PhD, but also I spent decades in a lot of fundamentalism and so there was so much dogma. So, this is me sort of pushing all the way to the other extreme and it has served me. And I think the big message for anyone who's listening would be like, find out what serves you by following your curiosity and what you actually want. Sometimes we don't even know what we want because we're not embodied enough. But then you can try this little fun game of like think of something that you might want and then see how it feels in your body. Does it feel expansive? When you take a breath, do you feel like room or does it feel tight? And so, then we start to ask our body questions. Our body has our own individual truth. It really, really does. And what happens is you start to check in with your body more and more. Then you are sort of guided in your life. Eventually, it's not something you have to think about; it just happens. And then you will lead yourself to whatever is your best life. Louise: That is so cool. It's like the difference between thinking and knowing in your body, it's that language of knowing in your body or not the language, but it's that experience of knowing in your body that when [unclear52:02]. That is a cool trick. Kathryn: Yeah. They live in concert now, you know, so like our brains have been very subject to conditional cultural programming. Our brains are really susceptible to that because human beings want to belong and society tells you, these are the things you got to do to belong. And so you want to belong so you conform, right? And then when you are not in relationship with your body, again, that's why anti-fatness is such a destructive force because it separates us from our body, and it makes controlling your body the objective, and your body is not to be controlled. It's just to be loved and enjoyed and to be honored. So yeah, I think there's a lot of different ways we can just very gently, it doesn't have to happen overnight, but just a little to check in, like you just happen to be eating a meal and you just realize, oh, I'm going to take some deep breaths. I'm going to breathe really deep into my belly. And I'm going to experience this one bite of food and just relish every bit of pleasure. I'm going to feel it go down into my body. And then you you'll start to see you'll just do that a little bit more and more, and you can heal the relationship with your body by just actively engaging with it a little bit more and a little bit more until it becomes something you do without thinking Louise: So lovely. And all of that is stuff that we're not encouraged to do. Even a belly breath - oh gosh. You know, don't let your stomach pop out. Eating and feeling pleasure, like honestly, pleasure and eating is not something we even like - it's not on the radar. These things are radical, but so simple. And what is it that Dana and Hilary talk about body trust is our birthright. Kathryn: It is. It is our birthright. And you know, most of us have been around small children, they do not feel self-conscious in their bodies. Someone told me that they were having Thanksgiving dinner with a three year old. They were sitting next to the three year old and the three year old was going, "Mm mm." And so they were laughing about how, like, it almost sounded like orgasmic sounds from this toddler who hasn't been socially conditioned yet. And hopefully they get to live without that other stuff limiting their experience in the world. Louise: I'll [unclear54:13], right? Kathryn: Yeah, exactly. So as a parent myself, that's the thing I teach my kids more than anything is bodily autonomy and to make decisions based on what feels right to them in their body. That feels like the best gift I can give them. Louise: I couldn't agree more. And that connects to so many other experiences. Kathryn: It really does. Louise: Yeah. What a terrific conversation. I'm so grateful for you to come on and talk to me about all of this today, and I'm going to continue buying your work. Kathryn: Thank you. It's been such a pleasure for letting me share, and I really, really love talking about these things and thank you for getting up early so that the timing worked and all of that. Thank you for reaching out and finding me. I'm really delighted. Louise: Ah, right back at you. Thank you. Outro: What did I tell you? Is this an incredible interview and an amazing individual or what? I tell you what I could not stop thinking about that conversation for days afterwards. Kathryn's experience and way of expressing everything through their art, it's just mind blowing. So look, I'm a bit spent, I'm sure you are too. I feel little part of me feels like lighting up a cigarette and just laying back and just enjoying the after glow of that conversation. Thank you so much, Kathryn, for coming on and blowing all of our minds at a time when we really, really need some awesomeness. Thank you so much for delivering. If you like me are fascinated and a bit blown away by everything Kathryn-related, look at their Instagram, which is fat_mystic_art, and go to the Etsy shop and buy everything, which is kind of what I want to do as well. The Etsy shop is Fatmystic, and there's just so much terrific stuff there. Thank you everybody, and thank you, Kathryn. Look, we're going to sign off now and into the end of the year we go. Be very, very careful everyone, because like I said, it's diet culture high season, the weight loss wolves are after us. Remember that your body is awesome, magical, mystical and not something to feel ashamed about. There's just so much awesomeness sitting right here right now. Okay, so look everyone, I hope you take really, really good care of yourselves and I hope that there's some kind of break coming for most of us. I know I'm going to have a rest. I'm going to be back and absolutely raring to go early next year. We've got some, like I said, some really cool news and big news coming, but this All Fired Up podcast is going nowhere. You're going to be hearing from me a lot. I'm very, very pumped and excited. So look, look after yourself, everyone. And I'll see you in the new year. In the meantime, trust your body, think critically, push back against diet culture. Untrap from the crap!

In diet culture it's hard for most of us to feel comfortable in our bodies, let alone LIKE them. But what if it's possible to burst through this thin-ideal bubble and experience the joy, the light, the MAGIC of our bodies? My guest this week, artist and speaker Kathryn Max, has done just that, and you simply MUST hear their story! Kathryn's art is a powerful expression of tenderness, compassion & unconditional body acceptance. It's so beautiful - let's get all fired up with LOVE! Show Transcript Intro: Welcome to All Fired Up. I'm Louise your host, and this is the podcast where we talk all things anti-diet. Has diet culture got you in a fit of rage? Is the injustice of the beauty ideal getting your knickers in a twist? Does fitspo make you want to SPITspo? Are you ready to hurl if you hear one more weight loss tip? Are you ready to be mad, loud and proud? Well, you've come to the right place. Let's get all fired up. Welcome back to the podcast my delicious diet culture dropouts. Thank you so much for tuning in for yet another intriguing, deep dive down the anti-diet rabbit hole. I want to start with huge love to you all and thank you for continuing to listen and support this podcast, which as you know, is completely produced and put out by me on my lonesome, alongside a whole lot of editing. And I really appreciate your messages of love and support, especially during this year where things have become pretty rocky with getting the podcast out in a predictable way, I'm really pumped about 2022, and I've got big things of what I can't wait to share with you next year. But in the meantime, I really appreciate your listening. And if you love the All Fired Up podcast, help get the message out there by rating and reviewing. A five star review is always good, wherever you get your podcasts or preferably maybe with apple podcasts, because I'm really trying to target that. The more this message gets out, the more likely it is that diet culture falls onto its knees and I can go off and become a florist like I've always wanted. And if something about diet culture is pissing you off, let's get it off your chest, send it to me. Send your rage straight into my inbox - louise@untrapped.com.au. Tell me what's bugging you. It could be something that happening in your local community, could be a diet that's getting pushed in your social media or just something that you've heard around the traps that's really getting up your nose about living in diet culture. I want to hear it. I'm your agony aunt for all things diet, so send that to my email address. Free stuff, alert who doesn't love stuff that's for free. I have amazing E-Book called Everything you've Been Told About Weight Loss is Bull Shit, and that was co-written with the glorious Dr. Fiona Willer, dietician and amazing podcaster from the Unpacking Weight Science podcast. In this classic resource, we have stuff that's full of fun facts to help you push back against diet culture's bullshit. Essentially, we bust top 10 myths about the relationship between weight and health. And we give you heaps of scientific articles and resources and overviews, giving you the truth about the relationship between weight and health and just how much bullshit is being fed to us. It's an excellent resource. It's completely free. You can download it from the Untrapped website, untrapped.com.au. I encourage you, if you haven't already got a copy, to grab it and share as far and wide as possible; friends, family, health professionals, everyone needs to hear this message. More free stuff. If you have been living in diet culture and you find that you have found it difficult to be at ease in your body - ie. if you're a human living in diet culture, this eCourse called Befriending your Body is completely free. It's created by me and in it I send you an email once a day for 10 days. And it's like a little love letter to you every day for 10 days, giving you some small messages of self-compassion and practices of self-compassion, which are all designed to help you start looking at your body through a different lens, through the lens of compassion, support, friendship, appreciation, respect, and liberation. The befriending your Body eCourse is really easy, it doesn't take too much time out of your day, and as I said, it's completely free. So if you're tired of struggling and you're looking for something completely different and something pretty urgent; this can be with you in seconds. All you need to do to download the Befriending your Body eCourse is go to my Insta, which is untrapped_au and click on the link in the bio and you will see the Befriending your Body eCourse sitting there waiting to befriend you. Huge hello and big love to everyone in the Untrapped online community. Without Untrapped this podcast wouldn't be able to be produced. Untrapped is an online masterclass in the art of everything anti-diet. And it was co-created by me and 11 other health professionals working in this space. It's an incredible program. Very comprehensive, all online so you can do it at your own pace. And in it, we go through all kinds of stuff like recognizing and waking up from die-culture bull shit, reconnecting in with your body signals and repairing your relationship with food, with your body and with moving your body joyful ways. One of my favorite aspects of the Untrapped masterclass is the online community that we've created. We've been running since 2017. Can you believe it? And we have built up this incredible group of people we meet every week in a Q and A, and we've completely bonded. And I think most of the power of Untrapped is in this community. So if you are looking for a change and if you don't want to do it on your own, think about joining us in Untrapped. You can find out more from looking at untrapped.com.au and we would absolutely love to have you. So, on with the show, my guest this week, oh my gosh. I mean, this is a completely mind-blowing episode that I hope that you've got somewhere nice to relax and really take some time to absorb the awesomeness of what you're about to hear. So look, it's Christmas time, diet culture bull shit, no matter where you live on the planet, it's at an all time high at this time of year, the pressure is on. It is high season for the weight loss industry. And look, we are all feeling a little bit more fragile than usual, thanks to the ongoing bull shit of this year and living with this COVID pandemic. So it's been a complete mind-fuck, and look, you know, you all know how much I love to rant and complain about diet culture, but I think we need a bit of love, and that's what this episode is all about. In this Christmas season, let's pivot into something completely different. So my guess this week, Kathryn, formally Kathryn Hack, now known as Kathryn, or you might know her on Instagram as fat_mystic_art or Fat Mystic. This is an amazing human. Kathryn is a fat liberated artist and speaker, and they, sorry. And they are the pronouns. They have many intersecting identities including being fat, queer, disabled, poly, ADHD, lipedema and ex-evangelical. Are you fascinated? Because I certainly was completely fascinated by this human, when I saw their art in their Instagram feed. It took my breath away and like kind of hit me in many areas as you're going to hear about in our conversation. So, I really don't have more words and I don't want to give anything away, but I think your mind will be blown by this amazing episode interview individual. So without further ado, I give you me and the glorious Kathryn. Louise: So Kathryn, thank you so much for coming on the show. Kathryn: I'm very happy to be here, Louise. Thank you for having me. Louise: So tell me what's firing you up. Kathryn: Well, interestingly, I would say that being fired up, hasn't really been my lived experience recently with whether it's diet culture or any kind of oppressive systems. They definitely can feel discouraging, but I have a really deep practice of self-compassion. And what I have observed is that the more I live in a state of grace with myself, the more I am kind and consistently really gentle with myself, it's almost effortless for me to extend that kind of grace and compassion to other people while also having good boundaries. So I don't let people mistreat me because I live in a fat body or disabled body or because I'm queer or any of the identities that I live within. And yet, I don't feel fire about it. I don't feel anger exactly. I feel yeah, real contentment and peace and this journey and where it's brought me. And I feel a lot of joy in my life and the grace to handle the challenges that come in living in the body I live in. Louise: My goodness. Okay, everyone wants to know what cocktail is this self-compassion. This is so interesting. So you said you've got a really deep practice of self-compassion and that's what got you to this place of not being unimpacted, but not being affected in a negative way. Kathryn: And I think sometimes I might still be affected, but it's just that self-compassion is such an effective tool, that even if something does impact me negatively, I'm able to be present with that emotion with a deep resource of compassion and care, and so it just doesn't damage me. Like, I'll sort of let this emotion move through me. I'll feel it. I won't deny it. I won't suppress it. I definitely don't shove it down in my body like I used to. I just feel it, I'm present with it and then it sort of moves through. So the deep practice started a little while after I was first introduced to the fat liberation movement. It was intellectual information to me that, oh wow, some people are living in fat bodies and they're like, yeah, I'm fat, so what? And I was like, whoa, that was a revolutionary idea to me. I've lived in a fat body since puberty and I felt shame about it my whole life. Around the same time that I learned about fat liberation, I was also diagnosed with a chronic illness. The name of my chronic illness is lipedema. It's progressive, there's no cure for it, and it contributes to the size and shape of my body. It's understood to be a fat disorder, and it happens to accelerate during major hormonal changes. So most humans who have this experience, they see the onset around puberty. And then during childbearing years, during pregnancy specifically, there can be significant advancements, and then again around menopause. My experience was that I lived in a smaller but fat body for most of my life. And then after I had two kids, about 21 months apart, my body really changed radically. It impacted my mobility, I took up a lot more space in the world. And for the first several years, there was an incredible amount of shame there. Louise: I guess that built on the shame from puberty, you said like it had been there anyway. When were you diagnosed with lipedema? Kathryn: I was diagnosed in 2016. Louise: Okay, so that's fairly recent. Kathryn: It is actually. And that's kind of a fascinating thing. Like, I talk a lot on my art page about how much my life has changed, thanks to reconnect with my body and healing my relationship with my body. I would say that self-compassion is what helped do that. So first it was sort of the information, like there's humans out there and these brilliant activists that are brilliant feminist thinkers and like helping me to get new information about whether or not I'm allowed to exist as I am. I also want to say that humans in the disability justice movements are just so brilliant in how they articulate that dignity is not condition and ought not be. So, that was all really, really helpful information. And then what happened is I was able to apply the information by compassion, you know, like learning how to just sit with myself and feel my feelings and validate them and then genuinely out loud saying to myself, like "Kathryn, I'm so sorry." And then I'd be really specific; "I'm so sorry you don't deserve love because of the body you live in." And intellectually, I knew that sentence wasn't accurate, but in my body it felt true somewhere. And so, I would just acknowledge these things that were sort of limiting beliefs. And it was a limiting belief. I absolutely am worthy of love in the body I inhabit. And as I started to offer that specific lie, compassion and heal the pain that it caused, I suddenly was in relationships where I felt really loved and seen and valued and desired, and so it changed literally everything living in my body. Louise: How did you learn about self-compassion? Kathryn: Well, you know, it's interesting; it really first started with, with my body. So learning about fat liberation, I was reading everything I could get my hands on. And then also, I just am a very spiritually curious person. I spent most of my life inside Christian theologies. I was an ordained pastor for about a decade. And then I left that worldview because it was more and more confining, and I started to feel - even though I had sort of these incredible spiritual experiences, what I would now say is I think that divine doesn't care about dogma. I feel like the divine is willing to engage with us no matter where we are. And it really, really doesn't care about any dogma that we may bring into our desire to connect with whatever is out there, so as a Christian, and I was a Pentecostal Evangelical Fundamentalist Christian. Louise: Wow. Kathryn: Yeah, that's a mouthful, but yeah. And it's really rigid thinking, but also there's this Pentecostal element that is very metaphysical. There are a lot of interesting experiences. Things like speaking in tongues or getting sling in the spirit. And I had had an incredible experience after experience, after experience of feeling a sensation of being completely loved and accepted by what I would now call is just the divine or the universe, that something benevolent that loves me exists. And now I would even say like I'm part of it, like we're all sort of connected as consciousness, you know? I'm still very spiritual and I like to refer to myself as a Woo-Woo Bitch these days. Are we allowed to swear on this podcast? Louise: We encourage swearing on this podcast. Absolutely. Kathryn: That makes me happy. That was one of the first things that showed up when I stopped being a fundamentalist is I was aware of how much I had edited my language. And now swearing is my fucking favorite thing to do. Louise: It's my fucking favorite thing to do too. It's expressive. Kathryn: It is, and it feels freeing to me. So my body started to slow down kind of dramatically. I had had this outpatient surgery that was supposed to be a quick in and out kind of thing. And I had an incision rip and it meant that I was like literally in bed for about six or eight weeks. And then I finally am better enough that I can move around a bit, and then I immediately get vertigo. And it fascinating because in that particular window, I felt like my body was saying, "Kathryn, we're going to sit you the fuck down. We've got something to tell you." And it was an incredibly powerful time in my life where I stopped limiting my spiritual curiosity to what was sort of acceptable within Christian circles. And by that point, I was already no longer a fundamentalist, but I was still attending like a more liberal-minded Christian Church. And the person I was married to was a pre-devout kind of more liberal Christian. But I knew that Christianity was really important to them and our marriage. And it turned out if I allowed my evolution to take me beyond Christianity, that that relationship would end, and that is what ended up happening. But my body working so I could stop participating in culture, really. And I had two small kids, it was a really strange time. They had just kind of fend for themselves a bit more than their peers, because I just couldn't function. And my brain was like - my spirit, my brain, whichever was just curious. And we have like this amazing technology and our hands, and so I just was following my curiosity. Eventually, I mean, it took me lots of places. Like I did a little time of like, oh, I'm curious about tarot cards. And so I looked into that and then I was like, oh, I want to learn about like all of our chakras, and I even bought some like stones to like, you know. I took one of the online quizzes that talked about like, which one of my chakras needs more attention, you know, that's my clothes, I need to work on that. And so it was like a game. It was like fun. It was just following my curiosity. And in that space where I was just following anything that was shiny, I was reading more and more about self-compassion. And there was this very specific practice that I had read about and learned about that I started doing and telling my friends about and it was this thing where you literally say out loud to yourself, I'm so sorry. And then you be as specific as you can about the belief, even though intellectually, you know it may not true, but the painful thought and you just say, I'm so sorry, and you just hold space for yourself. And I don't know how it works, except that it does work and it just shifted those painful things. They just were allowed to move through me. Louise: Yeah. I love that because you're bringing like mindful kindness to the beliefs and thoughts that are happen in the moment, so I'm so sorry that you just thought, oh, I'm so disgusting. Kathryn: Yeah. Louise: And so you're pausing, you're not letting it kind of just sink in, and you're apologizing to yourself - so powerful. Kathryn: And it's really been the most affected, I would say, on the old beliefs that have sort of been sneaky. We've been very programmed by the cultures we grew up in. That's why fat phobia is so rampant, you know, anti-fat is everywhere. It it's like a global phenomenon that fatness is bad. That's kind of fascinating. What the hell? Louise: The world is wrong and fat is bad. Kathryn: Yeah. But actually, and I think that's so interesting, and one of the things I really love about the fat community is that we are an international global group of humans, that are going to push back on this really stupid presumption that our bodies are wrong. And I don't know, it creates this really interesting energy of when you choose your own inner knowledge over the projected information. It is powerful. It's an empowering transition. And so, you turn the volume up of your own inner space, above the chatter of culture and you start to realize, you can do whatever the fuck you want. You can have whatever. Louise: You can wear what you want, you can have sex, you can enjoy hell out of yourself. Kathryn: It's all of it. Absolutely. Louise: For how long has life felt like that for you? Kathryn: It just keeps getting better and better and better. So, when I was experiencing that period of time where I was recovering from surgery and then ended up with vertigo, that was like, it felt like explosions, like my body expanded and my brain and my spirit was expanding. And I'd had this sort of metaphysical experience where I had this profound sensation that my physical body that was inhabiting was an allegory to this spirit size I was meant to embody in this. And I don't actually even talk about that that much, but it was huge in shifting my thinking about like whether or not my body was allowed. And not only is it allowed, it's powerful. When people see me, it's not hard to see that I am also quite free, but I live in a body that we're used to people seeing shame. Walk around in bodies like mine and they there's just shame. I's hard not to, because of how much conditioning we've been taught about fat, but I just don't have that. I don't have that energy. And so, people interact with me and I'm not easy to forget. Louise: Do people just not know what to do with you if you don't kind of obey that is not expected shame. Kathryn: I don't know if they... I'm not having those kinds of conversations with strangers. The humans are that are close to me, like they just see me. I'm a full human person. I do have this deep spiritual practice, but like I have hard days too and I have sad days and I reach out for support when I need it. I get frustrated with my kids and I complain about that. So yeah, it's just the humans that are in my life really see me. And then when I'm out in the world, I just don't live. I just am not anticipating. I remember living in a way where I anticipated hostility for the body I lived in and I felt hostility. Now I just don't anticipate hostility directed towards me. It just doesn't occur to me anymore. I don't know how, except that it was all this self-compassion, but this very dramatic shift is, can move through the world and I'm not anticipating hostility. I just assume that I get to be treated with the amount of dignity and love and care that I treat myself with. And if that doesn't happen to be the case where someone doesn't treat me the way I want to or expect to be treated, it just doesn't wreck me like it would've before. It just is like, oh, that's an anomaly. Like, I'm sorry, that person, they must be having a rough time. Like, how sad that they would feel the need to project their shit onto me. It's very clear to me that that's theirs. It's not shit my. I'm good. Louise: Oh, that's it, right? Because the self-compassion has kind of sunk in and made you kind of unstoppable. Kathryn: And what's funny is like unstoppable how, because I have a lot of limitations living in my body. I have a lot of limitations moving through the world. Like, my body doesn't fit in most public seating. I've had to do the both end of doing this internal work of, I know that I'm allowed to exist in the world with full dignity and I'm also someone ADHD, and so sometimes I have low executive functioning. Which means, I can be overwhelmed with the amount of extra labor that's required for me to like, make sure that that restaurant I want to go to with my friends is going to have seating that's going to work for my body. And so, I've been able to like my circle of friends and people I date, I've been able to invite them into this sort of tender space of, hey, would you actually help do some of the labor here? And I was pretty tentative about it at first because it felt really vulnerable, and they were so happy to. They were just so happy to. They were like, "That is okay Kathryn, we love your presence in our life. And of course, we're going to try to streamline this and make it less hard for you. You shouldn't have to work this hard, just go out and be in the world." Yeah, and so it is the both end. Both things are at once; I am unstoppable and this world is still not built for, to welcome a body like mine, I have to do in a lot of extra labor. Louise: Which is terrifically difficult, but how nice that you can like share this with friends who will then go out and advocate and take care of everything alongside you; you don't have to do it on your own. Kathryn: Yeah. It's a really beautiful thing. I think the work of getting free and liberation is an internal spiritual work. And then what happens is we get to see it lived out in human relationships because we are social creatures and it's got to be the both end. We're not meant to be alone, most of us aren't. And so, yeah, and then that was just a really - that took some compassion too. It was very tender when I first started saying out loud to my circles, like I want to be out in the world a little more and I'm noticing I'm saying no to invitations because it will be too hard. And then I'm like, oh, actually I can ask for help. Turns out, asking for help is its own kind of superpower. And culturally again, especially in Western cultures, we have been taught not to do that. Louise: Yeah. Don't impose on people, don't have needs, don't... that's terrific. Out of interest, who were the fat liberation people that you read for inspiration? Who your community now that you...? Kathryn: Let's see. So Sonya Renee Taylor's work was really impactful to me and the book, The Body's not an Apology. I really liked what I read from the author who wrote Shrill and now Lindsay-Anne Baker, The Will author. I can't remember her first name. Louise: I can't remember it either. Kathryn: Yeah. And then I just started following like the hashtags on Instagram. Instagram was really helpful in my evolution as well, because I love how you can just follow hashtags, like disability justice and fat liberation, haze, so all of that was really impactful. So it became like this big, beautiful soup of just taking in everything that was sort of out there and allowing it to change how I thought about things. Louise: I love that; a big, beautiful soup, because Instagram can also be like a treacherous shark infested ocean. Kathryn: The thing is like curating our feed too. I mean, it can be. But I think that internet has served me so well because social media is can reflect back to us our own energy sometimes. And whatever you're drawn to are attracted to you, you can unfollow and start following the stuff that makes you actually feel good, so it doesn't have to be that. It doesn't have to be that. Louise: No, I love my little haze bubble that I have on Insta and social media, speaking of which that's how I found you. Because I think I was scrolling through Being Nourished, their feed, Hilary and Dana and I saw this amazing picture of lady and it was just lit up with flowers and it was glowing, like literally like no shit glowing. And I was like, I just stopped. And I'm like, that is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. So since then, I was trying to find it and I couldn't find out anywhere. And then I found you and looked through your feed and your art and it was like how I think self-compassion looks like in art. I can't explain it very well, but it's like it moved me in my body. It was so beautiful see. And that's why I kind of tracked you down and finally found the beautiful painting, which is going to be up in my new office. Which ironically the new office is called Flourish at [unclear27:54]. Kathryn: Wow. Louise: And then the idea is that it's a big, beautiful like greenhouse full of plants and growth and beginning for people. And so, I wanted to feel it full of like art that showed that. That painting that I had seen is called Flourishing, so I can't wait to put it up there. I just want to talk about your art because it's just like a mind bogglingly awesome. How long have you been doing it? Kathryn: Not that long. I started really making body art, figurative art in 2018. I was sort of dabbling in 2017. I was sort of experimenting. I was 38. I'm 44, almost 44 now, but I was 38 before I could even call myself an artist. It just was things were, again, we have these limiting ideas sometimes. Like the idea that I was an artist felt so gatekeepy, like I wasn't fancy, I'm just up hot. Yeah, so I was 38 and I was like, oh my God, I've been calling myself crafty my whole life. But like the truth is, is that I am an artist. And then when, like I said, I describe how in the same window of time I had this lipedema diagnosis, this chronic illness and there's no cure, so my body will continue to evolve. And then they're just like, by the way, all of our bodies are continuing to evolve. We're in a constant change. And then fat liberation, that I was allowed to take space and have the body I lived in and I needed a way to marry these two ideas just to make peace with the fact that this is a reality of my life. My body is going to stay this way and progress. So up until that point, I just constantly was believing that like someday I would lose all the weight, you know, like most of us think, you know? So I had to decide, nope, if that never happens for me, I'm going to live my best life. So making art was the bridge and it was like, I wanted to see myself depicted beautifully in art and media, and so I just started playing around with it. And it's interesting because you know, you referenced the image flourishing and you said painting, it's actually not really a painting. It's digital. Louise: It's digital. I have no idea when it comes. Kathryn: We have these iPhones, and there's all these apps on there. I literally make all this art on my phone. Sometimes I like the aesthetic of mixed media, and so sometimes I'll do like mixed media art, like an abstract sort of thing. And then I can like take a photo of it and I can layer it into a silhouette. But yeah, we have all this software now where you can just like take a photo and then like strip away everything that's not the silhouette, and then I can layer and layer and layer. I can create a background, I can do all these things. I can just pull an image in and out of like 16 different phone apps, you know? And it was just plates. Something I can do while laying down and it doesn't require any art supplies that my kids are going to make a fucking mess out of. Louise: That is exciting. Kathryn: And it really helped me get into a state of flow where I could be like listening to an audio book and then like playing on my phone, making something beautiful. Here's the other interesting thing is that, in like summer of 2018, I started my Instagram and I was like, I'm going to make new art every day. I'm going to post something every single day, and I did that for six months straight. And there is really something powerful about adding creativity to whatever our work is. Like, what are you working on in your life human? Like, what's the thing that is asking for your attention, right? Is it body issue stuff, then find a creative outlet for that. It could be poetry. It could be writing short stories. It can be visual arts. It could be clay. I have this sculpture of myself that I made with, oh, I wonder if I can remember their name. There's this other, like the activist who I think is from Australia, actually. Louise: Yes, yes. And my God, what is happening to my brain? It's 6:00 AM. Ashley Bennett. It's Ashley Bennett from at bodyimage_therapist. Kathryn: She's delightful, and it was really fun to go to her class in San Francisco. And a bunch to us were in there with clay molding our own forms. And it was powerful to lovingly touch this clay, to like fill in where all of these fat roles are, you know, the volume of my big belly. It was just powerful. So whatever creative outlet attracted to, adding creativity to whatever your work is, somehow I think unleashes huge amounts of energy. It just opens us up in ways that I don't think just thinking about things could ever. Louise: I think you've nailed it. You're regularly visiting that place and reinforcing it, but just sort of intuitively finding this way of doing it. It shines out of it. I don't think I've seen art before, which embodies self-compassion, this stuff that you've done, I just love it. And I love how you've paired it with compassionate phrases, like be gentle with you. Kathryn: Yeah. Louise: And I love fat-trans queer loved, just full of love. It's too just incredible. And I particularly, yeah, I'll just keep blushing if I keep looking. I just encourage everyone to go and look at it. So this is really like a love story of you and your body. Kathryn: Well, okay. So maybe, right. My relationship, my body meant that my spiritual worldview shifted a great deal. How I interact with the world around me changed. It also meant that I ended a long term marriage that wasn't exactly a terrible marriage or anything, it's just we didn't resonate with each other anymore. I was no longer a Christian, that was really important to him. And as soon as I knew that that marriage was over, I was like, oh my God, I'm queer. Of course, I am. How did I not know that? You know? And so I spent so many decades in purity culture, I just was prohibited from exploring my own sexuality. And so, one of the things about being a late bloomer is the temptation to feel like a I've missed out on a lot of stuff. And again, like I felt all those feelings. I gave myself a lot of compassion. It would've been amazing to be having lots of gay sex when I was in my twenties, but that wasn't my experience. And so the cool thing is, is that I get to be a sexual being today in the body that I have, but as also as a person who's incredibly self-aware who is great communication skills, who is emotionally intelligent. And so, I'm navigating dating almost as if I'm a preteen or a teenager, but also I have all of this wealth of internal self-knowledge and self-compassion. Louise: So that's good make it like much more enjoyable than usual teen experiences. Kathryn: I'm having a fucking blast, yeah. And not that every date I go on is amazing. A lot of them are amazing. I'm also very interested in nontraditional relationship models, so I'm practicing solo polyamory. Another interesting thing to read about is something called relationship anarchy, which is just brilliant. It's just asking us to challenge all of these beliefs about what relationships are supposed to be and gender roles and like expectations we might have on a dynamic with another person. You actually get to invent that; you and that person get to make that up as you go, it gets to serve both of you, and it can be like anything you want it to be. I love that. I love the freedom of turning everything on its head. There's no external expectations on what my relationship with any one person needs to be. I get to decide that. They get to decide that with me. So yeah. Right out of the gate, you know, I came out as queer during the pandemic and then once enough of us were vaccinated, I'm out here dating, dating a lot. I'm having a good time. Louise: It's not easy to date in a pandemic. Wow, this is all so new. You're riding the wave. Kathryn: I'm riding this very big wave. Also one of the things that I've learned is that scarcity is a capitalist construct, and it fucks us up pretty bad, but we apply scarcity to everything. We definitely apply it to dating and it just doesn't feel true anymore. Like, people are coming out to the fucking woodwork to be like, hey, how you doing, can we date? And I'm like, yeah, let's go on date. Me and the body I inhabit, I'm a desired person that feels amazing. That feels amazing. Louise: Wow. That is the power of not limiting yourself. And that's the other kind of word that came to mind looking at your art is abundance. Kathryn: Yeah. Yeah. It feels so much better to live in this space. And I want to be really careful to say, it's not that I am in an elated state of being constantly. I really do have access to this like really high, high frequency sensation of joy and pleasure and abundance. But also, I still am inhabiting a human body that has chronic pain, that experiences big fatigue. I've had relationships end in a way that really hurt my feelings. And I've been afraid of things here and there too, you know? And so, it's just that in those times now I don't judge myself harshly. I can experience very, very big fatigue and just decide that everything I wanted to get done that day isn't going to get done and I'll go home and I will just rest and do whatever I need to do to get through that particular window. Louise: What would you offer yourself then? How do you stay compassionate in a moment like that? Kathryn: Well, what's interesting is that that's taken a while because I remember even just, I don't know, eight months ago I would have a fatigue spell and sometimes they would last up to like five days where it was just super hard to function for days. And the first day or two, I could be like, that's all right, I'm just going to roll with it. And then if it went on beyond that, it would start to feel scary because our brains have a tendency to be like, oh my God, this is my life now. And what I started to see though, was on the other side of a hard window, I felt more free somehow. And I don't know how to explain that. Sometimes we go through a hard time and then coming up out of it, there's just some kind of lift. And that had happened enough times that I started to trust it. So several weeks ago I had a rough spell and I didn't have that panic feeling. I just remembered like, oh, I've been through this before, like on the other side, I'm just going to feel more powerful. So in the time while I'm experiencing it, while I feel like really low energy, I just lay down as I needed to. My body is like, this is what's going to happen, this is how much rest we need and stop trying to qualify it. Like, I feel like I rest more than any human I've ever met, and I'm like, what? Really? More? How much more could I need? And my body's like, it doesn't need to be qualified like that. Like it's not about comparing it to other people, like you're going to need to lay down and rest somewhere. And so then I just keep myself occupied by listening to audio books or playing on my phone or meditating or whatever I want to do. That's a really powerful thing too. I stopped doing things that I was supposed to do. I literally only do what I want to do. Louise: I love this. Kathryn: There's some amount of privilege that comes with that. Like I'm separated, so I don't have to live with my ex anymore, but I was a stay-at-home parent before. And so, with child support and whatnot, I still get to like live as a stay-at-home parent and I have my art that I do and other things occupy my day and my time. I'm not needing to work 40 hours a week in order to live in the world, so I recognize that as a great privilege I get to have. But that being said, I still think being free on the inside is what's making me free. You know what I mean? Louise: Yeah, much more. I remember being at one of Hilary and Dana's retreats in 2016 and talking about how like... it was for embodiment, to be an embodied practitioner. About trying to get out of like the crowded city of our brain and down into the wilderness of our body - uncharted territory. And I remember us talking about that's where the freedom is, it's down there and it's not verbal, it's sort of felt. Kathryn: Yeah. And I would say that - like I said, I've been explaining who I am as a person, as someone who's quite spiritual, and that's true. But what I started to see is that in some spiritual communities, they would talk down about the body. They would say like, oh, this meat sack that we're in, you know, like your body is not who you really are, you are not your body. And I don't agree with that at all. I think our bodies are fucking magic. They hold so much intense wisdom. They will talk to us and teach us things. Our bodies have held all of our trauma our whole lives; just held it, just waiting for us to be ready to look at it again. And it has only ever been kind to us. And even when it's not working well or there's pain or any of those things, it's not out to get you, it's just trying to get your attention. And when we can turn into it and listen and believe that it's our friend I feel like it's multiverses within ourselves, like unending amounts of wisdom and love and compassion all in this physical form that we inhabit. Even if you just think about DNA, like our fucking DNA is ancient. You know what I mean? There's studies that talk about how like trauma can be passed down in your DNA. Like the stories that your body has, it's way more powerful than we give it credit for often. And so when we live our lives, we're not ruled completely by our minds, but we actually get to make decisions based on how does it feel in my body when I think about doing this thing? If we literally do the things that only make our body feel like, ah, expansive and open and relaxed, oh my God, your life will change. If you're constantly doing things to your body's like, "Oh, dread, dread, I don't want to, I'm going to make myself." Nope, nope, it doesn't serve you. Louise: This is an amazing conversation. I knew this would be an amazing conversation. There's so much in everything that you are saying, and it's learning how to do that I think that's difficult for people. Because like you said, we're so kind of stuck in our heads and so scared, and often I think it's that fear response that's in our body that stops us getting down or trauma cuts us off. So it is really interesting that you come to it in your late thirties and you come to it in a moment, like when your body just sort of calls it a day almost and says, oh, lie down for a few weeks, you're going to have to just be with me. Kathryn: Yeah. There's an account. I follow on Instagram called The Nap Ministry. And I can't remember who is in charge of it, but this really powerful black woman. And I just want to say too, like as a white woman in the privilege that I embody there, like the kind of freedom that I get to live in is absolutely because of the work of black women and fems and indigenous people. Like, I'm really grateful for all the labor and the work that they've done to help kind of illuminate the path forward. So this particular person who has the Instagram, The Nap Ministry, they just blew my mind when they talked about like rest as revolution. Capitalism has really indoctrinated us with the idea that our worth is connected to our labor or our productivity. And then we live in systems that you literally can't live unless you do labor for often someone else. And that's really wrong. Human beings are not designed for that. That's a system that we all have grown up in and it's impacted how we think about ourselves. There was a time where human beings existed without having to go to work and labor in order to just stay alive. So to nap, napping being resistance to those capitalist ideas was a revolutionary idea to me. And that rest was how we honored all the people that went before us that weren't allowed to rest. And it absolutely - I really do credit my body stopping working and requiring so much rest with my ability to disconnect with these systems that control our thinking. You know what I mean? So I was out in the world less because in my bed napping more. And what that meant is I was spending more time in my own energy and the things that I was just naturally feeling curious about. And then I could follow my curiosity to the next step and the next step. In a spirit paradigm, you might say like your higher self is always going to guide you towards enlightenment if that resonates with you. But I would also say that my body had a very key role in that. My body was the one that arrested me and got my attention, my body demanded rest and I said, okay. And before I said, okay, I spent years pushing through like most of us do. You like buckle in, you like buck up, you push through and that's stupid. We don't have to do that anymore. You know what I mean? The idea that you were good because you hurt your body in order to achieve some task is really stupid. We don't have to do that anymore. We don't have to hurt ourselves anymore. We can be kind to ourselves. Rest is revolutionary. Louise: I love that. Absolutely love that. And I think especially now, you know, the last two years have been pretty shit for most people on the planet. And I don't know if this happened over there, but as we are coming out here in Australia, there's a lot of like exhaustion and a lot of anxiety coming back into, and fear of what's going to happen next step. People do need to rest more. We can get these messages, like you said, from the structures and systems that we need to kind of pull up our socks and lose the COVID kilos and, you know, whatever. And I'm finding for my clients that that kind of message like let's get back to normal, just doesn't resonate as much, is maybe we've had a bit more time to spend in reflection. Kathryn: Normal was very toxic. It really was. Normal has never been good or kind to human individuals. It has served these systems that are oppressive and that's all. And I think the pandemic forcing most of us to slow down to some degree, it means that we get to become disillusioned with how it was really shit before too. And no, not fucking going back to that. No, thank you. No, we're going to have to create something new. A lot of the kind of things that I'm listening to and reading about now is all anti-capitalist stuff. And the idea that we're in late stage capitalism is a pretty widespread idea at this point. And so, how we going to cope with that? How are we going to cope end of capitalism? Those of us who are adults now are probably, I don't know that it's going to be easy or fun. And again, that's why we have to do the internal work of like, I'm actually, okay no matter what, I'm going to be okay, and I'm going to be really fucking gentle with myself, because I don't know what the future holds. And sometimes uncertainty can be very scary. And again, we can offer ourselves compassion for that, but the truth is the more I live in a state of genuine compassion for myself, I'm very present in this exact moment and you know, that's a spiritual practice that most of us had heard about like be present, be present in it; it didn't resonate until I started to live in a state of compassion. And it's not that I'm trying to be present; I just am. I just am here. I'm just present with myself because I'm so kind to myself. I don't have to escape into the future to think it'll be better then. Oh my God, I've spent years thinking it'll be better then, when my body is smaller - I would escape in the future all the time. I don't do that anymore. My life is beautiful because I am so fucking kind to myself. And when I am this kind to myself, somehow the world is just way less hostile. And it doesn't mean there's not still a ton of unknowns; I'm just not afraid of the unknown anymore. Louise: You're amazing. That everything you just said is just brilliant - so inspiring. No matter what, just keep doing what you're doing, because you are like your art. You're just like glowing. It's amazing. Kathryn: Thank you. And the thing that I kind of want to reiterate is like, I know I can speak eloquently about some of these things. I am very human too, right? There's the both end. But if I can come to this state of being, that means it's available, like the amount of freedom that I get to live in. I realized a long time ago that I kind of wanted to be of service to the world in some way, you know, I was in vocational ministry, and the world who I was a part of really made perpetuate to this savior complex. And then I had religious trauma and I had like childhood trauma and I was definitely someone who was codependent for a lot of years, was codependent in my relationship with my spouse. And I feel like I've lived a very normal life, but I've started to taste freedom, and then the freedom just brought more freedom. And then that freedom brought even greater freedom. And so, I would very much like to say that existing as I am in the world now, it feels like it's accessible to people. Like being alive and free in the body inhabit might convince someone else that, oh my God, what if I could be more free too? And now I no longer feel like it's my job to save anyone. It's just not. Like, I really trust people on their journey. I trust you to follow your own curiosity and see what path that takes you on. But I being free in the world, I think perpetuates the idea that freedom is available to all of us. Louise: Yeah. And I think that's why it's so lovely to speak to you, and to know that this conversation gets the listen to by so many people. I think this part like of like finding that freedom through self-compassion, connected to your body specifically and inhabiting - I think that's really tough for a lot of people, and that's a bit that we can get stuck on. Like, we can kind of talk about I love fat liberation, and I love haze, and I love anti-diet, but I still don't feel okay in my body. Like I still can't really accept it, let alone inhabit it, let alone feel freedom in it, let alone expand. What you're talking about is I guess, perseverance with that compassion until it doesn't feel like an innate trick, but it feels like it's the portal and then you just sort of go down and inhabit. Kathryn: Yeah. And our brains do change, right? So, like it's the default. It wasn't always, it took some time and I didn't make myself do it. Like, this was really born out of when I realized I was only going to do what I wanted to do. And so, my meditative practice is really like when I'm laying my bed, I'll just take some deep breaths and I'll let my brain just sort of wander. I don't like any kind of dogma or high structure at all. Some of that might be PhD, but also I spent decades in a lot of fundamentalism and so there was so much dogma. So, this is me sort of pushing all the way to the other extreme and it has served me. And I think the big message for anyone who's listening would be like, find out what serves you by following your curiosity and what you actually want. Sometimes we don't even know what we want because we're not embodied enough. But then you can try this little fun game of like think of something that you might want and then see how it feels in your body. Does it feel expansive? When you take a breath, do you feel like room or does it feel tight? And so, then we start to ask our body questions. Our body has our own individual truth. It really, really does. And what happens is you start to check in with your body more and more. Then you are sort of guided in your life. Eventually, it's not something you have to think about; it just happens. And then you will lead yourself to whatever is your best life. Louise: That is so cool. It's like the difference between thinking and knowing in your body, it's that language of knowing in your body or not the language, but it's that experience of knowing in your body that when [unclear52:02]. That is a cool trick. Kathryn: Yeah. They live in concert now, you know, so like our brains have been very subject to conditional cultural programming. Our brains are really susceptible to that because human beings want to belong and society tells you, these are the things you got to do to belong. And so you want to belong so you conform, right? And then when you are not in relationship with your body, again, that's why anti-fatness is such a destructive force because it separates us from our body, and it makes controlling your body the objective, and your body is not to be controlled. It's just to be loved and enjoyed and to be honored. So yeah, I think there's a lot of different ways we can just very gently, it doesn't have to happen overnight, but just a little to check in, like you just happen to be eating a meal and you just realize, oh, I'm going to take some deep breaths. I'm going to breathe really deep into my belly. And I'm going to experience this one bite of food and just relish every bit of pleasure. I'm going to feel it go down into my body. And then you you'll start to see you'll just do that a little bit more and more, and you can heal the relationship with your body by just actively engaging with it a little bit more and a little bit more until it becomes something you do without thinking Louise: So lovely. And all of that is stuff that we're not encouraged to do. Even a belly breath - oh gosh. You know, don't let your stomach pop out. Eating and feeling pleasure, like honestly, pleasure and eating is not something we even like - it's not on the radar. These things are radical, but so simple. And what is it that Dana and Hilary talk about body trust is our birthright. Kathryn: It is. It is our birthright. And you know, most of us have been around small children, they do not feel self-conscious in their bodies. Someone told me that they were having Thanksgiving dinner with a three year old. They were sitting next to the three year old and the three year old was going, "Mm mm." And so they were laughing about how, like, it almost sounded like orgasmic sounds from this toddler who hasn't been socially conditioned yet. And hopefully they get to live without that other stuff limiting their experience in the world. Louise: I'll [unclear54:13], right? Kathryn: Yeah, exactly. So as a parent myself, that's the thing I teach my kids more than anything is bodily autonomy and to make decisions based on what feels right to them in their body. That feels like the best gift I can give them. Louise: I couldn't agree more. And that connects to so many other experiences. Kathryn: It really does. Louise: Yeah. What a terrific conversation. I'm so grateful for you to come on and talk to me about all of this today, and I'm going to continue buying your work. Kathryn: Thank you. It's been such a pleasure for letting me share, and I really, really love talking about these things and thank you for getting up early so that the timing worked and all of that. Thank you for reaching out and finding me. I'm really delighted. Louise: Ah, right back at you. Thank you. Outro: What did I tell you? Is this an incredible interview and an amazing individual or what? I tell you what I could not stop thinking about that conversation for days afterwards. Kathryn's experience and way of expressing everything through their art, it's just mind blowing. So look, I'm a bit spent, I'm sure you are too. I feel little part of me feels like lighting up a cigarette and just laying back and just enjoying the after glow of that conversation. Thank you so much, Kathryn, for coming on and blowing all of our minds at a time when we really, really need some awesomeness. Thank you so much for delivering. If you like me are fascinated and a bit blown away by everything Kathryn-related, look at their Instagram, which is fat_mystic_art, and go to the Etsy shop and buy everything, which is kind of what I want to do as well. The Etsy shop is Fatmystic, and there's just so much terrific stuff there. Thank you everybody, and thank you, Kathryn. Look, we're going to sign off now and into the end of the year we go. Be very, very careful everyone, because like I said, it's diet culture high season, the weight loss wolves are after us. Remember that your body is awesome, magical, mystical and not something to feel ashamed about. There's just so much awesomeness sitting right here right now. Okay, so look everyone, I hope you take really, really good care of yourselves and I hope that there's some kind of break coming for most of us. I know I'm going to have a rest. I'm going to be back and absolutely raring to go early next year. We've got some, like I said, some really cool news and big news coming, but this All Fired Up podcast is going nowhere. You're going to be hearing from me a lot. I'm very, very pumped and excited. So look, look after yourself, everyone. And I'll see you in the new year. In the meantime, trust your body, think critically, push back against diet culture. Untrap from the crap!

My guest this week is the fierce and fabulous Lindley Ashline, fat-positive photographer and body liberation activist, who has literally BANNED the weight loss industry from using her stock photos. In this glorious episode, Lindley tells how she pushed back when a diet company tried to do just that! The AUDACITY of diet companies and the weight loss industry is next level, but they were no match for Lindley! Join us for a completely fired up, inspiring conversation with a woman who takes no bullshit, AND takes staggeringly awesome photos! Show Transcript Intro: Welcome to All Fired Up. I'm Louise your host, and this is the podcast where we talk all things anti-diet. Have diet culture got you in a bit of rage/ is the injustice of the beauty ideal? Getting your nickers in a twist? Does fitspo make you want to spitspo? Are you ready to hurl if you hear one more weight loss tip? Are you ready to be mad, loud and proud? Well, you've come to the right place. Let's get all fired up. Hello, passionately pissed off people of diet culture. I am so excited for some episode of All Fired Up. And thank you to all of the listeners who send messages of outrage to me via email louise@untrapped.com.au. If something about diet culture is really getting your go, let me know about it, get it off your chest. And who knows, we might be able to rant about it here on All Fired Up. And if you are a listener, don't forget to subscribe, so you don't miss episodes when they pop out. And while you're at it, why not leave us a lovely five star review and rating wherever you listen to your podcast, because the more five star reviews we get, the more people listen, the quicker diet culture topples, and then I can go and become a florist. As the COVID crisis unravels, more and more people are banging on about the relationship between weight and health. And if that's really getting up your nose and you want a strong resource to help you push back against that, and you want something for free; look no further then now wonderful ebook, ‘Everything you've Been Told About Weight Loss is Bull Shit' co-written by me and the wonderful Dr. Fiona Willer, anti-diet dietician, and general all-round awesome person. In this ebook, we are busting wide open the diet culture bullshit myths about this relationship. Because when you look under the hood and scratch the surface just a tiny, tiny bit, we see that all of this BMI stuff is complete bullshit, and it's great to have a booklet in which all of the scientific evidence to support the health at every size and anti-diet approaches can be presented to people who are still upholding the greatest injustice when it comes to health. So have a look for the ebook, it's at untrapped.com.au, and a little popup will happen, and you can download it from there. Give it to all your friends and all your family. Put it in their stockings for people for Christmas, give it away, trick or treating for Halloween. Hell you know, give it away instead of Easter eggs, just get it out there to as many people as possible because just so over this groaning insistence that size is all accounts when it comes to health. If you're looking for more free stuff and you're struggling with your relationship with your body, because let's face it – who doesn't in diet culture. Have a look at the Befriending Your Body eCourse, which is completely free. You can find that on untrapped_au on Insta. In this course, basically you'll get like an email from me for 10 days. Every day for 10 days, you get a lovely little email from me talking through the wonderful skill of self-compassion, which is essentially literally learning how to become your body's best friend and become your own best friend as you wade through the of diet culture. So have a look for that course, as I said, it's on Instagram, it's completely free. What have you got to lose? Huge shout out to all of the Untrapped community. Untrapped is my online community and masterclass for all things anti-diet. Untrapped has been around since 2017. And we have built ourselves into this wonderful online group of fierce and fantastic people. If you are struggling with your relationship with food, with how you are moving, with your body, with just generally trying to get along in diet culture with all of the pressure that's heaped upon us every day and you're just absolutely sick of dieting; have a look at our Untrapped course and community because we would really love to have more people join us. You can find it at untrapped.com.au. Louise: Okay, let's get into the nitty-gritty. Shall we? I'm so excited in this episode, I'm having this awesome conversation with fat activist, photographer, author, and cat mom, Lindley Ashline. Lindley is the creator of Body Liberation Photos and does some really amazing ethically produced diverse stock photos of people in larger bodies. And, oh my gosh, how much do we actually need this kind of stuff. So I had the most amazing ranty conversation with Lindley. You are going to absolutely love her. So without further ado, here's me and Lindley. Lindley, thank you so much for coming on the show. Lindley: Oh, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Louise: Me too. So tell me, what's firing you up at the moment? Lindley: Well, when we were emailing back and forth talking about doing this podcast episode you had said, I want to hear what's firing you up, and I would love to hear you talk about stock photos, which are photos that can be used for marketing that people buy from other people. And also, wondering if you've experienced any diet culture co-opting of your work. And I immediately said, I have all that put together because I do have the stock photo website where I sell my photos. And most of my clients, my stock photo customers are health at every size oriented, or anti-diet, or body positivity folks who are marketing their small businesses. But the other day there is a diet that is probably familiar to you, that is very big here in the United States, that is called Whole30. Louise: Whole30, is that the Brene Brown one? Was she doing that? Lindley: Oh, I don't know. Louise: I'm sorry. Lindley: That's very, very trendy here. So, someone from Whole30, the company that runs that diet bought some of my stock photos. Louise: Oh no. Lindley: To use for an event. And I know this because I reacted to that. I'm a small business, so I do sell a decent number of stock photos, but I'm not at the point where I don't see every order as it comes in. So every time someone buys something from me, I get an email, of course, and I'm always curious, who's buying things. So I saw this such-and-such a name @whole30.com. And I said, wait a minute. Because not only do I not want… my photos are, they're mostly people in larger bodies or fat bodies. When I use the word fat, I'm using it as a neutral descriptor of people's bodies and not an insult. You don't have to use that word for yourself, but I have reclaimed it and many other people have too. Louise: That's such a beautiful way of putting it. Thank you. Lindley: Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's like saying that I'm a medium height, or if I were tall or short, I have long hair. It's just a descriptor. But the people who appear in those photos, they are in vulnerable bodies themselves. They are often people of color. They are people in very large bodies; people who experience a lot of discrimination and stigma just by living in their bodies. And not only do I not want those bodies being used to represent diet… Louise: Yeah, like they're not before photos. Lindley: Yeah. No, but also when I started creating stock photos, I worked with a lawyer to create my license that you are bound by when you buy these photos, you have to agree that you're going to respect this license to use the photos, and in the license, it specifies that you cannot use them to promote diets. Louise: You are terrific. So they're buying it in breach of your licensing already. Lindley: Yeah. If I'm going to set out to create body-positive and fat-positive stock photos, and work with people who are in marginalized bodies to start with; I can't allow those photos to be used in ways that will hurt people. Louise: How dare they. They have the audacity. Lindley: I was very fired up speaking into the theme. Oh, I was fired up and I said, no, how you. I immediately messaged my best friend and said, how dare they. And so, I emailed her, I issued her a refund. So here's what I did; I issued her a refund for the money that she's paid. I deleted her account. I couldn't delete the account, so I changed her password on her. I couldn't delete it, but I could change the password. And then I emailed her and said I have refunded your money, you may not use these photos, my license prohibits you from doing so. And that's that. Louise: So, did she respond to you? Lindley: Well, to make it even better, she had put her work email address in when she placed the order. But for her billing address, she was using a corporate credit card. So she had put as the email for the credit card, she had put in the corporate address. So I emailed her, but I CC'd the whole company. Louise: Oh my God. That's fantastic. Lindley: CC'd headquarters@whole30.com. I'm sure that maybe just a random assistance, someone deleted it, but like, I'm sure it didn't go to all the employees, but that was very satisfying. Louise: That is very satisfying. So she did email? Lindley: Yeah, she emailed right back and sent me kind of an indignant email. And she did say that they wouldn't use the photos. I keep meaning to go check and see if they actually did. But she was very indignant because she said we were going to use these for an event to promote body positivity next month, and I guess we won't. And I'm like, yeah, I guess you won't. Louise: What are you doing in the field of so-called body positivity if you're a diet company? Lindley: And that's the co-opting, that aspect of it. Because now, like Weight Watchers has changed its name formally to WW. What does that even mean? Like, we all know it's Weight Watchers, we're not stupid Louise: Well, they think that we might be. Do you remember in the eighties when Kentucky Fried Chicken decided to improve its brand by going to KFC, because then it wouldn't be fried. Lindley: But it's still fried chicken. Louise: Yeah. And this is still like, we want your money. Lindley: Yeah. And they've realized that people are wising up. Louise: We know that their diets are shit. Lindley: Yeah. They don't work, and in fact, they're worse for you, for your health than not dieting than being at a stable weight. Louise: Yeah. And then they're like, well, we can't have that, so let's launch into the field that grew around resistance to us, and let's nick everything, including their stock imagery. And how dare they run a body positivity event when they're in the business of shrinking bodies. Lindley: And as we move forward in time, you're going to see more and more of this because there is a lot of profit in telling people to love their bodies while selling them products because you made them hate their bodies. And in the body positivity movement, it's really rampant. If you look at Dove, Dove is one of the first companies to really monetize at a grand scale the body positivity movement. In the last decade, they've done a bunch of very high profile feel good, “love your body no matter what,” you can't see me, but I'm making really sarcastic hand gestures right now. Louise: Yeah, I'm loving it. Lindley: I mean, you can see me, but our listeners will be able to. But all these love your body just the way you are things, but at the same time, they're selling skin lightning cream to people of color. Louise: How dare they? Lindley: And they're selling wrinkle cream or whatever. Louise: Anti-aging, right? Lindley: Yeah, so it's very two-faced. Louise: Yeah, they were just changing the marketing where baiting and switching people on a global scale. And I agree. I think we're going to see more and more and more of it, but it's also like kind of core at the same time, because the fact that these big nasty wolves are coming to sniff at your door means that you are the one with the power, right. Body positivity movements are the ones who are driving the direction of – like the increasing level of diversity that's happening around the planet. I think they're just getting a bit desperate. Lindley: I mean, these are dinosaurs – that meteorite is coming. And I want to say too, for our listeners, I want to acknowledge, because you don't hear this stated enough, how traumatic, like full-on psychologically traumatic it is for both us as a culture and for people as individuals to be told for hundreds of years that their bodies, particularly fat bodies, and particularly women's bodies, but all bodies are bad in their natural states. And then have a generation of companies turn around and tell us that it's our fault for not loving those bodies. That's trauma. That is trauma – culturally and individually. So I want to be very clear that if you don't love your body, which most people don't, I have days I do and days I don't, but if you don't love your body, that is not on you, that is on hundreds of years of culture driving up and product power, so it's not you. Louise: It's the system. Lindley: Yeah. And you're not individually possible for fixing that, unless you want to. Louise: I'm so glad you're here. You are on fire and I love it. Lindley: I get so angry at the scam that's been perpetuated. Louise: Yes, that's exactly what it is. It's a giant gaslighting scam that turns us against ourselves and each other. And when we kind of hit body size as a measure of worth, it's really damaging and divisive. I really want to ask how you got to this point. Lindley: I got mad. Louise: Yeah, how did you get mad? Like, how did you come to have this amazing idea to start the body liberation stock photography stuff, and come to it with so much conviction to protect people who have been marginalized? Lindley: Well, it's been a process of about – it took about 10 years to go from being very, very sort of normal person invested in diet culture, sort of very mainstream, to being very passionately anti-diet and doing this activism work. In 2007, thereabouts, I discovered I had been on the website live journal for a very long time. At that point, it was like a pre-Facebook. Louise: The dark days of early internet. Lindley: Yeah. And I had stumbled across this group called Fatshionista. So like fashionista, but with fat folk. And it was such a revelation because here were these mostly women who were in large bodies in very large bodies who were being styling and confident and walking around in horizontal stripes. Louise: Oh my God. Lindley: And tight fitting outfits and colorful outfits and just living their lives confidently. And I just lurk for a really long time. But from there I started discovering… so the pre-cursor, these of foundation of the body positive movement is the fat acceptance movement, which started in the 1960s and has been the backbone of all of this. So this was a little bit before body positivity became a thing. And I found these fat acceptance blogs, where they were talking about the science of weight loss and why scientifically it doesn't work. And I had been in this state that I think many people sort of existed where they're like, well, it's fine to say, love your body, but my body is big. My body is not okay. Like, that might be cool for other people, like maybe other people deserve to be confident. But something about… Louise: Gosh, that is like, when you said that, that is like where so many of us are stuck. Like it's okay for everyone else and I love the idea of diversity and I love the idea that large and small and everyone in between can exist, but my body. I can't get there. Lindley: Yeah. And so, when I learned the science and the fact that somewhere around 98% of diets fail and that people gain the weight back, I started to feel like I'd been scammed. I'd been raised my whole life to believe that if I could just be good enough and strong enough and have enough willpower and do the right things for long enough, then I too would be thin and healthy and fabulous and have the life I'd always dreamed of and all those other things you see in diet ads, and it turned out none of that was true. Louise: It's bullshit. Amazing. Lindley: I started to get annoyed and then gradually I got mad, and then I got really mad. Louise: Excellent. Lindley: And then I started doing my own activism work because it was so tragic to see people that I love trapped in that system and be lied to. And so, I started speaking out – just a little bit, just a little bit. Like, I'd post something on my Facebook about, “Hey, we know that diets don't work because of science.” Louise: Yeah. I mean, like in tiny little writing. Lindley: Yeah. And that's really scary when you start doing it because it's so counter to what we think we know. So in about 2015, I was in a really crappy job, after a series of really crappy jobs, corporate full-time jobs. And I said, you know what, I got to a breaking point. And I said, “I'm done. I want to take my photography and turn it into a full-time business.” Louise: So you'd learned photography for a while. Lindley: Yeah. Well, I've done nature photography for many, many years, but I had never photographed people. Louise: Interesting. Lindley: So I took a year and I took a bunch of classes online and then I learned to photograph people. So in 2015, I quit that job. And I want to acknowledge my privilege here. I am a white cisgender straight woman who lives in the United States, and my husband is my financial safety net, so I was able to take that. I also have a part-time job as well, but I was able to take that leap because of my privilege. And so, I've always… Louise: Because you have some security, yeah. Lindley: There's not a lot of path that is open to everyone, and so I always want to acknowledge that. Louise: Yeah, it is really important, but I also think it's kind of fabulous that there are people who are able to do that because what you've done is create something for so many people. Lindley: And if you had asked me a decade ago, if you had said maybe in 10 years, how you feel about being a full time, small business person, photographer and activist, and I would've laughed in your face. Because at this point I have enough experience speaking out that I often sound very confident and powerful. Louise: You do, you sound really fired up and it's fantastic. Lindley: Which is wonderful, but that is not where I came from. Louise: So you took it on. Lindley: Yeah, I came from a very meek sort of very nice lady, southern sweet background, where you never disagreed with anybody to their face. Not to their face… Louise: Disagree behind their back with a cup of tea. Lindley: Yeah. That's how we do it in the south, the Southern US, we smile at your face and then snip at you behind your back. But like, I wasn't brought up in a way where I was allowed to access anger or to even believe that I felt it. Louise: It's part of the, like, part of the gaslighting of diet culture is that it uses other gaslighting of being raised female, and like, just be nice and shut up and don't rock the boat. And if you're mad, it's probably a period, right – it's not worthy. Lindley: Yeah. And it's very threatening to a lot of people, too, particularly when someone in a fat body is angry, that's very threatening because we are expected to shut up and take it. And so, I do get a lot of trolling. I've had some threats, but thankfully I'm not yet high profile enough to really be getting a lot of that. But it there's been some unpleasantness. Louise: It's really terrible. What you were saying about the science stuff and speaking up about the science, its that's sort of, my pathway was through the science as well, initially as well as like the massive sense of social justice and eating disorder work as well. But I'm so aware, and when I talk about the science, so if we were in the same room talking about the science, it's possible that my voice would be listened to more, even though we're talking about exactly the same thing, because our body sizes are different, which is ridiculous because actually you've got more lived experience alongside the science, so it's kind of like what the… Lindley: Yeah, yeah. We consider it culturally, we consider a thin body or a thinner body to be a credential, just like a degree. I was actually talking about this on Instagram literally last night that we consider thin body is to be a credential. So even though I live in this body and I have experience with this body, in general, I am considered as much of an authority on this body as someone who is in a more socially acceptable body. Louise: Which is so weird, it's like being like, oh, I'm the expert on same sex relationships, but I'm completely head show. Why would that credential be? Lindley: Yeah. Again, when marginalized people are allowed to speak and allowed to be angry and allowed to be believed, it's very threatening to the status quo. So it's easier to, I mean, again, both at a cultural level and an individual level, it's easier to assume that I am lying or that I'm exaggerating or that I am unacceptably angry or unacceptably sad or whatever, so that it blunts the impact of what I'm saying. Louise: Yeah, it's easy to dismiss something you don't agree with. Lindley: Right. I had someone who is in an average size body for here to the US. A maybe US 14, 16, which I think in Aussie size is about a 12. Louise: I have no idea because sizes confuse me. Lindley: I think the Aussie sizes run one size lower, I think. But anyway, at any rate, someone who is of average size here in the US. And often I find, again, I am speaking for my US experience. I'm not speaking for the whole planet, but I often find that folks who are of the average size because of the nature of our culture, think that they are much larger or much farther along that spectrum. So I often find that there's people who are of average size assume that the way that they are treated is the same way that people much larger than they are, are treated – which is not accurate. Louise: But it's about that unconscious, like they don't know the privilege they have. Lindley: Yeah, because it's a spectrum. I live in a very large body, but I am nowhere in near the extreme end of the fatness spectrum. There are many, many people who are larger than I am. And then I have privilege over those people because I can still get clothes that are… I can't get them in person. I mostly have to buy online, but I can still get clothing that's commercially made. Even if it's not the clothing I would prefer, and even if it doesn't fit very well, I can still find clothing somehow. But this was a person who I think wasn't quite ready to understand that that is a spectrum. Louise: And that's real. Lindley: And I had written this, I was recently diagnosed with a new to me health condition that has been quite challenging and that I am pursuing treatment for. And the treatment for that condition, it is a stigmatized condition. I'm not going to go into details, but it is a stigmatized condition, and it is a condition that is correlated with larger bodies. We don't have any scientific evidence that it is caused by being in a larger body, but it is correlated. And so, as someone who now has condition, there's sort of a double stigma and there it's been very challenging to get treatment. Louise: So you're stuck in the whole stigmatizing, like, medical condition stuff where they're like, “Oh, you've got this condition. If your body was different, you wouldn't have this condition,” Which is really not an interesting conversation, but it seems to be one that keeps on happening. Lindley: Right. Right. And so, this is something that I have been dealing with for a while now. Just pursuing treatment and it's taken much longer than it should have. And I was talking on my personal Facebook about the challenges of getting this health condition addressed and the ways in which some of those challenges have been caused by people reacting to my body size by fatphobia, plain and simple. And this person who has been listening to me speak for years and who is very earnest and was clearly trying very well intentioned. Because this was not the same experience that this other woman had had in her life, she approached me and wrote me a long message about how I was basically bringing all this on myself. Louise: Oh, bringing all of what on yourself? Lindley: That maybe I was just imagining that people were treating me poorly. Louise: Oh ouch. Oh dear. Lindley: Because I was putting out negative energy into the world, and so my poor treatment was my own fault. And there was a time in my life that I would've been devastated and I would've believed her. I would've gone, “Oh no, maybe because I'm in a fat body, maybe I am putting some kind of energy out into the world that maybe I just, oh no, it's all my fault.” Louise: Oh wow. Lindley: And my friend Brandy, calls this confidence magic. Louise: Good time. Lindley: Yeah. She said she calls it confidence magic because she is also in a very large body. And quite often, when we talk about the way we're treated it, the retort is, well, if you were just acted more confident, if you were just friendlier, if you just did X, Y, Z. But mostly, if you just acted more confidently, then people wouldn't treat you that way. And it's entirely possible that for someone who is in a smaller than ours body, that works. Maybe it does work if you're in a smaller body. But I want to be very that there is nothing I can do or not do that will make my body not an oppressed body. It doesn't matter what kind of energy I put out into the world, I don't deserve to be treated poorly, especially for the size of my body. Louise: It's putting emphasis back onto you, it puts it back onto you and it takes the focus away from the person who's being the dick head. Lindley: Right. My oppression is never my fault, period. And so now I asked her to sit down and really look at that discomfort because the problem was that she had reached a point where she couldn't imagine that people actually get treated the way that I was describing. And so, it was so uncomfortable to realize that her experience was universal, that she sort of flipped over into this default state of, oh no, you must have done it to yourself, because it it's so hard to think. It is hard to think about people you like being mistreated. And it's easier to think that it must somehow be under their control it, that it [unclear28:21] behavior. Louise: Exactly. I was going to say that it's a locus of control problem. If we can locate the problem within us, then we feel like it's controllable and that we can do something about it. But to actually kind of recognize that this is structural, this is big. And we can be as kind and nice and put as much positive energy crystals out to the universe as possible and it won't change fatphobia. Lindley: Yeah. And unfortunately, this particular person was not receptive to being asked to reevaluate what she was saying, and so she wandered off and I haven't seen her since. But it really illustrates that when we start learning about systems of oppression, it can be really uncomfortable. As an America, I have had to do a lot of work around racism and a lot of learning, and as a very white person, that is very uncomfortable. But also, I feel like it's part of my job on this planet. Louise: We're not always supposed to be comfortable. Lindley: Yeah. And it's okay to be uncomfortable, especially when you're learning; you have to learn to sit with it. Louise: Yeah. Gosh, like there's so much that you have to deal with, when all you're really wanting to do is get on Facebook and talk about it. Lindley: I just want to whine on Facebook, and now too, my personal Facebook, because I have so many professional connections there, it is up being a hybrid. It is a hybrid space. When I'm speaking there, half of the folks who are in my sphere are there because of my work, so it's never really personal. And that is a boundary that I chose. I could choose to maintain my Facebook to be much, much smaller and more closed, and so I do have to be aware that I'm sort of speaking to a hybrid audience there, but sometimes you just want to get on Facebook and gripe too. Louise: You want to have a good old Facebook page and just get supported. That's kind of what we want to. Lindley: Right. But yeah, it's so important that all recognize that when we are treated badly for something about ourselves or related to something about ourselves, that's not ever our fault. Louise: Ah, such a good message. And the solution isn't to be kinder to the person who's being the dick head. Lindley: Yeah. I don't owe someone who is oppressing me, who is treating me badly based on the size of my body. I don't owe them in anything. I don't owe them an explanation. I don't owe them kindness. I don't owe them education. The only thing I owe is to myself to minimize the harm done to me. And if I give them anything beyond that, that's a gift. Louise: Yeah. Ah, God, what you're saying is so important, it's going to resonate with so many listeners. I just know it. Lindley: I hope so. It's time to stop blaming ourselves for the way that we're treated. Louise: Yes. Yes. And just last week, one of my clients was talking to me about a health interaction here in Australia with yet another person who is kind of locating the problem, same story. There's a person who's lived for a very long time in a larger body, tried every diet under the sun, the body's not going to change size. Now there's a health condition that needs urgent attention, and this person has been told very nicely that the problem is their body size. And they're actually experiencing delays to the actual treatment, while they are referred to a “obesity clinic” to address the problem of their size. And the emphasis there for this person, this health profession was being kind – it was being said to me in a nice way, which was a revelation for this person, because they've been treated so unkindly, but people can still be kind and still be a dick head. Lindley: Yeah. Oh yeah. Like a doctor, many years ago now; the doctor who lied to me about my health numbers so that she could put me on an off-label medication to try to make me lose weight. And so, she told me I had a condition that I did not have so that she could prescribe me a medication to actually try to make me smaller. She was so nice about it. I assure you; she was kind and sweet and gentle while she lied to me and gave me an unnecessary medication for a decade. Oh, she was very nice though. Louise: I have no words, that is dreadful, but this brings us right back to that Whole30 thing, right. I'm sure their body positive event would be full of kindness and niceness and fairy wings. But what the fuck are they doing? They're selling a diet. Lindley: Yeah. And you can, you can put as much lipstick on that pig as you want, but it's still going to be a pig. And I understand that pigs are smart, sweet, intelligence animals, they're still going to be a pig. Louise: That's right. You know, shit rolled in glitter is still shit. Lindley: Yeah, it's still terrible. Louise: So I've looked at your website and there's the most beautiful photo of a woman in a larger body, in a chair, in a garden, and oh, it is stunning. It is such a beautiful photo. And there are many, many photos like that. And I really want to talk to you about your photography, like how you got… so you got angry at the science, you got all fired up, you started to take pictures of people and now ended it up in this body liberation photography. So tell me about that and how you feel that photographing larger bodies is such an important piece? Lindley: Yeah, there are two sides to the photography. The one side is the stock photos, and for that I'm finding people who most of those folks are not models. They're just regular folks that I find in various ways. And then I'd also do offer client photo sessions; boudoir photography and portrait photography and business branding like business photos, and so there's sort of the two sides of it. And I started out doing the client photography because when I quit my full-time job, that seemed like the most obvious path to take income-wise at the time. And a couple of years later, there's a stock photo company, a very famous one called Getty images, based out of New York – when you see red carpet photos and you see really high quality stock photos that big companies use, those are often from Getty. They are very large and powerful. And they released, I think it was in 2017, they released a special stock photo collection. That was a body positive collection. And it got a ton of press. And I got really excited because we need – the more of that in the world, the better. But I went to go look at the photos and it turned out that they were mostly people who are again, in the US average size, which again is much larger than model size body. It was still different, but it wasn't particularly representative. And also, the photos were very expensive and they were also for editorial use only. And in stock photo lingo, that means that you can't use them for marketing. Louise: Okay. Lindley: What on earth was the whole point of that? Louise: What are they folding? Lindley: What a wasted opportunity. And so once again, I got mad and I said, I can do that, so I did. Louise: And you went like the full spectrum of body sizes, and identities, and cultures and genders, it's like everything, basically humans. Lindley: Yeah. When I am looking for models for the stock photos, and again, most of these people aren't trained models, but when you pose, you become one. So now these folks can all say that they're, that they're models too, which is cool. But I am always looking for the largest possible bodies to represent because I'm the only one on the planet doing this work right now, photographing very fat people – the only one. And I look forward to the day when that's not true. I look forward to the day when I have tons of competition. Louise: When it's not a niche or a specialty. Lindley: Yeah. And it turns out that many of the people who come to work with me on that basis are also people of color, are also LGBT+, or they're folks, or they have a mental illness, or they have a disability. They bring these other identities with them, and so I have the honor of being able to represent those things as well. Lots of folks in eating disorder recovery. Louise: Yes. And so, how did someone, like, if someone wants to do a stock photo with you, do they approach you or do you like follow people in shopping centers and ask them? What do you do? Lindley: It's been a combination. I have an email list that I maintain. And if you would like to be on that list, I am in Seattle, Washington in the US. But if you're ever visiting or you want to be on my list just in case, you are welcome to contact. We'll put that in the show notes, but I do have an email list that I send out model calls to, at least in non COVID 19 times. And then, I did once follow a coworker into a work bathroom; I was doing a corporate contract at a big company, and I had kept running into this woman, she was just lovely and seemed, I don't like you can tell when you're washing your hands at a bathroom sink beside someone, but she seemed very nice. And she was right in the demographic I represent. And so finally I followed her into the bathroom one day and I said, “I'm so sorry if this is creepy, and you can tell me to leave at any point and I will leave and never talk to you again. But I do photography and I'd love to have you as a model.” And she came and modeled for me, and it was wonderful. Louise: That is so gorgeous. Lindley: But yeah, it's a combination. When I started out, I was finding people on Craigslist, which is an American website, the classified ads, so it is just been a combination. Louise: Fantastic. Have you heard of Obesity Canada? Lindley: I'm aware that they exist. I've tried not to get tangled. Louise: That's pretty gross. It's pretty eww. Well, actually, I'm not sure who has released it, but they're kind of like this O organization up there who have this stock photos collection. Lindley: Oh yeah. It's another one of those weird co-opting things. Louise: Yeah. Yeah. And they work very closely with our friends at Novo Nordisk who are releasing all the weight loss drugs, and trying to take over the whole world. Lindley: Of course. Louise: Yes. But those I guess they're competition for you in a way. Lindley: Well, yeah, in a way. There's also a free collection on a website called Unsplash of our own bodies. And those photos are lovely and they are free to use, unlike my photos, which are not free because I need to eat. Louise: Imagine that! Lindley: Yeah. My models have the choice of, they can either choose a living wage money or for every hour that they are modeling or they can choose to be paid in photos. Many of them are very poor and they need the money, so I'm happy to pay them. But everybody involved in mine gets paid a living wage, which is why the photos aren't free because I get paid a living wage too. But yeah, there are some collections out there that do compete, which is fine. Again, we need all the representation we can get. Louise: We too, but I guess it's ethics, isn't it? And because I think that some of the people who are being photographed for those stock photos associated with the O organizations use members of their so-called patient groups, who are people who – that's another kind of section of my podcasts, people who are being encouraged by the weight loss industry to promote body positivity in the name of getting better public healthcare for weight loss surgeries and the like. So, it's really nice to hear about the ethics of you treat the people that you work with. Lindley: Yeah. When I'm photographing people, because again, almost everyone who comes to me… now, sometimes I'll get people who are just like, I'm ready. Let's do it. I love my body. I'm ready to show it off. Let's do the thing. Louise: How often does that happen? Lindley: It's rare, but it's cool. That's fun too. But most of the people who come to me, they're nervous. These are bodies – we live in these bodies that are not considered okay. And now here's this girl with a camera pointed it at you going, “No, you're great.” That's very disconcerting. And so, we do a lot of coaching. We do a lot of… I tell people like they get to control when they're done, whether they need a bathroom break or they're hungry or they just need to not have a camera pointed at them. It's a very warm and friendly environment because that's the only way to be ethical about this. And if nothing else, if you're unhappy, it's going to show in the photos. Louise: Yeah, of course. Lindley: So I have a vested interest in keeping you relaxed too. But these organizations releasing these photos is another example of this smiling oppression because it doesn't matter. Louise: What a beautiful way of putting it. Lindley: It doesn't matter how nice you are about it; if you're trying to erase me, and if you're trying to get me to pay you for surgeries or drugs or meal plans or meals or whatever, or weigh-ins, whatever that are not evidence-based. And you can tell I'm all fired up about this, come back to our theme again, because it doesn't matter how nice you are about it. Louise: You're still a dick head. Lindley: I know all about nice, but nice is not kind and kind is not anti-oppressive. Louise: Yeah, we've got to stop this bullshit. Yeah, I love that term “smiling oppression”. Yeah, if people are being nice to you and trying to represent you, and simultaneously trying to eradicate you; that's bullshit. Lindley: Yeah. I mean, again, I talk about being Southern because it's very relevant here because I have an ancestor who owned a slave, who owned another human being. That was a couple hundred years ago, so I had no idea whether that person was nice to their slave. I wouldn't have any way of knowing. Louise: It doesn't matter. Lindley: Yeah, it doesn't matter. In the south, one of the things that I was taught in history classes in school was that slavery wasn't it really all that bad because people were nice to their slaves and let them live in the house, and I'm not going to repeat the rest of it. It is very… Louise: Oh my God, that's just, yeah. Lindley: Yeah. And I had to learn better as an adult. But just because, and I'm not comparing slavery and fatphobia, they are not the same thing. They are not the same oppression. It doesn't matter how nice I am to you' if I am hurting you, if I'm stepping on your foot while smiling and asking you about the weather, the proper response is, “Hey, get off my foot.” Louise: Yeah. Right. Oh God, so many people need to hear this, and it's so good to hear how fired up you are. Lindley: We're being lied to, and we're continuing to be lied to by people who want to present, particularly weight loss surgery is now the big new thing, but it's still not evidence-based. We know that the side effects are really horrific, that a lot of people die. And then most people who even have that surgery gain the weight back. I know somebody who's had it twice and the doctor is pushing her to have it a third time because it didn't work. I mean, she lost the weight and then she regained it right back because that's what human bodies do – they protect. Louise: Our bodies are amazing. They're smarter than the weight loss surgeons. Lindley: Yeah. My body says, “I see a famine coming. We're hungry, I need to protect you.” That's what our bodies are doing. Louise: And I love that the photography that you do highlights the beauty inherent in diversity. And like that picture of the woman in the backyard, she is by no means small and she is just absolutely, like, there is just such beauty in that photo. A lot of the people that I work with really can't see that beauty in their own body and really don't even look at their own body, and that's where I guess photography can open up. Like, what are you trying to do for people when you take their photo, when you're aware of that much, like avoidance or disgusted or all of that stuff that people get stuck on when it comes to their own body? Lindley: Well, again, there's, there's kind of two facets. There is often when client come to me, generally the folks who are modeling for stock photos, because they are aware that those photos will be used publicly and sold, so there's an extra layer there of not only being willing to see yourself, but to know that many, many, many other people are going to see these. So generally, the folks who model for stock photos are maybe a little more ready for that. But a lot of the clients who come to me, maybe they haven't had a photo of themselves since their wedding day, or maybe they haven't had one since high school, or maybe they're always in the back of photos, or they're the ones behind the camera because they can't stand to be in front of it. And for those people, when I started doing this, I didn't know the term for it, but the term is exposure therapy. This is not a process that I'm qualified to coach at this point, generally, this is ad hoc, people do it for themselves. But people will often take their finished photos, and we've always look at them together. We always go through them together, both from that's… I mean, it's part of my sales process. It's business, we look at them together because people are buying products with them. But also for support, I think your photos are amazing, and I know that you will too, but I'm still going to be there to metaphorically hold your hand while we look at them. But then people take them home, and they'll look at them for just a minute. And then the next day they'll look at them for two minutes, and they will expose exposure therapy themselves. That's the coolest thing because they're teaching themselves to look at their own bodies. And then the other facet of that is that you saw that photo of the woman in the chair, in my backyard. I'm very lucky to have overgrown backyard to put people in. Louise: You have a nice backyard. Lindley: And we had the behind the scenes of that photo is that I had sheets hung up all over around her because the back of my backyard is open to the next area behind, so I had sheets hung up all over for privacy because she is very nude. So, you saw that photo on the website and it made a difference for you. You remembered it. And so the other facet is that you can… I don't know what the verb is. You can expose your therapy yourself by finding photos of people who are either look like you, like have your similar body type or are bigger or have visible disabilities, or basically by exposing yourself to all kinds of bodies, not just the ones that you kind of get forced fed by the media. You can do this process for yourself without necessarily having to look at photos of yourself. Although eventually you will also want to look at your own body, but you can do so much just by looking at people of actual bodies; look at them. Louise: Not in a creepy way – maybe in a creepy way. Lindley: I mean, maybe don't go staring at people in the grocery store. Louise: Don't follow people into the bathrooms at pools. Lindley: Yeah, please don't follow people around staring at them, but the internet is a wonderful place to stare at other bodies. Louise: Yeah. And actually, you raise a really good point because I think it's, well, 20 years into my foray into like the non-diet stuff. And I think me, even in the mid two thousands, looking at that same photo, I wouldn't have had the same reaction of just like being struck by the beauty because I hadn't done all of that. Like, I do surround myself with lots and lots of pictures of, like we've got naked women all over this house and my kids make a point of warning their friends, and I'm pretty sure my dad does think I'm a lesbian, which is okay, because I'm exposing him to diversity, but it's the exposure, exposure to diversity. If we see ourselves everywhere, represented everywhere and see other people represented everywhere, nothing strikes us as wrong, and then the beauty can grow. Lindley: Yeah. You know, what we are exposed to inn our regular lives, without taking efforts otherwise is a very narrow slice of humanity. And the more we see people… the more we see all different kinds of bodies, the more normal they become. The more we can see the beauty in those bodies as opposed to those bodies and out of bounds, or wrong, or transgressive, and the more you can expose yourself, the faster it will work. Louise: Yeah. And do you think that the last place that that kind of appreciation happens is your own body? Lindley: I think it depends for people. I think for some people, yes. I think for some people, body is the least, like theirs is the last place that happens. And I don't know, you know, I'm not in other people's heads, so I don't know whether that correlates with how outside the mainstream your own body is or not. Louise: Yeah, I do think there's something in that, but to keep going. So you are basically encouraging us all to take modes of ourselves. Lindley: Oh, yeah. Take some new selfies, seriously. Start in the bath. Like if you have access to like a bubble bath, because then you can like take pictures of your toes, like pointing delicately up from the bubbles and it's the least offensive nude in the world and it's really safe. And then you turn that camera around or use your use the other camera on your phone. Don't electrocute yourself please. Louise: Don't live stream it. Lindley: You take a photo of like if you have cleavage and you want to see that cleavage, like you do the bubbles and the cleavage. Again, I'm making hand gestures that you can't see so you don't imagine. And you do like the coy bubbles and the cleavage and you like camp it up. And then from there, you get out the bath and you dry off or not, I don't know your life. And you start putting that camera on a timer and you do whatever makes you happy if that's nudes or a costume or a Godzilla suit, I don't care – as long as you're seeing yourself. Louise: I love it. It sounds really playful. Lindley: Yeah. It doesn't have to be… like, there is a lot. And if you are an eating disorder recovery there a chance that you have been exposed to some of these exercises already on body image. There is a ton of resources out there on things like mirror work, where you're looking into mirror and seeing yourself and lots of… like, I have a whole book of journaling prompts about body image. There's a ton of resources out there, but just taking a selfie and deleting it, you can delete it. You don't have to keep it. Louise: You don't have to put it on Facebook. Lindley: You don't have to share it. I know that some people will start like a secret Instagram that is just them sharing selfies just to have them out into the world, but you don't have to, you don't have to do any of that. Louise: You don't have to perform this. Yeah, this is fast, this is good stuff. Lindley: Just like anything you can do. But again, you're not obligated to, this is not a moral imperative. You don't have to do selfies. You don't have to do nudes. You don't have to love your body. It's great if you can respect your own body, but there's no particular moral good in it other than that, you deserve it. None of these – I'm not giving you marching orders. I'm giving you some options, but like we get to do you. Louise: Lindley, thank you so much. This conversation has been immense and everything and awesome. Thank you for everything that you're putting out there in the world and for being so fired up. Lindley: Yeah, thank you. Such a joy to get to come in and talk about what I'm really head up about. Louise: Yeah, it's truly terrific. And I hope that your health condition gets properly addressed and that you feel better soon. Lindley: Thank you. Louise: All right. Thank you. Outro: What a dead set legend. Thank you so much, Lindley, I just adored that conversation and thank you everybody for listening. So if you are looking to learn more about Lindley and all of her amazing work, you can find her at bodyliberationphotos.com or on Insta @ bodyliberationwithlindley. And don't forget that her name has a silent D in it. So it sounds like Lindley, but it's L I N D L E Y. Okay everyone, that's all for this week's episode, I will see you soon, I promise. Take really good care of yourself in the meantime, trust your body, think critically, push back against diet culture, untrap from the crap. Resources Mentioned Find out more about Lindley here Follow Lindley on Insta @bodyliberationwithlindley

Episode: Starting business is a struggle for everyone. How do you start? How can you manage stress? What problems you can face? And the big question is will you succeed? Your first year in landscaping business might be hardest, but Keith Kalfas is here to share his own experience for us to learn how to deal with the struggles of having a landscaping business from the start.   Today's Light Notes: 0:00-0:10 – The Untrapped podcast Intro 0:11- 0:39 – Introduction to the podcast 0:40-1:00 – Advertisement of Jill's Office 1:01-2:05 – Shares his struggle on finances during his first year of business 2:06-4:49 – Keith shows his hardship and how he encourages himself through the hardship he encounters 4:50-6:23 – He realizes that he is somewhat having great progress in his business 6:24-6:53 – Advertisement 6:54-8:47 – Conclusion   Quotable Lines: “In the future when your business passes the 6-figure mark, you're doing just fine you're gonna look back at those humble beginnings. And you're gonna cherish them because that's when the true fighter warrior spirit had to come out of you in order to make this thing work.” “It's not easy but, if it was easy then everybody would do it you know that's why it's hard, it's really really really hard and the mental battles and struggles that you go through in your mind and your emotions it's way beyond.” “When you feel that you deserve success too and you really believe that something happens, that was the big major shift for me that allow me to grow.” “You have to go all in and you have to.”

Imagine being 13 years old, standing in front of a judge, accused of the "crime" of being fat. Imagine the incredible pain you would feel as the judge announces that in the interests of your 'health', you will be removed from your family. But there's no need to imagine. During the height of the UK COVID-19 pandemic, two children were removed from their loving home and put into foster care. The ONLY reason was that both kids were fat. This harrowing story raised the ire of the fabulous Fat Doctor UK, who advocated and pleaded and offered to help educate the social workers, judge, and anyone who would listen, but her valiant attempts have so far been ignored. Two kids have lost their families, thanks to fatphobia. Join me and the fabulous Fat Doctor UK as we get UTTERLY fired up about this travesty of justice. This is a tough listen so please make sure you have adequate spoons. Show Transcript 0:00:12.7 Louise: Welcome to All Fired Up. I'm Louise, your host. And this is the podcast where we talk all things anti-diet. Has diet culture got you in a fit of rage? Is the injustice of the beauty ideal? Getting your knickers in a twist? Does fitspo, make you wanna spit spo? Are you ready to hurl if you hear one more weight loss tip? Are you ready to be mad, loud and proud? Well, you've come to the right place. Let's get all fired up. 0:00:40.3 Louise: Hello, diet culture drop-outs. I'm so pleased to be with you again and very excited about today's episode. Okay, so first of all, I wanna say a massive thank you to all of the listeners who are so faithful and loving. And I love all your messages and emails, so keep them coming. And if you love the show, don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss the episodes as they pop out on a roughly monthly basis. And if you love us, give us five stars because the more five star reviews we get, particularly on Apple Podcasts, the louder the message is, the more listeners we get and the quicker we can topple diet culture. And that's the objective here. 0:01:24.7 Louise: If you're looking for some free stuff to help you with your anti-diet journey, gosh I hate that word. Let's call it an adventure. Anti-Diet Adventure, 'cause that's what it is. It's rocking and rolling. It's up and down. It's not predictable. But if you're looking for a resource where you might be going to medical visit, you might be trying to explain just what you're doing to friends and family, look no further than the free e-book; Everything You've Been Told About Weightloss Is Bullshit, written by me and the Anti-Diet Advanced doctor dietician, Dr Fiona Willer. In it we're busting the top 10 myths that float around diet culture like poo in a swimming pool, about the relationship between health and weight, and we're busting myths left, right and centre. 0:02:06.8 Louise: It's a really awesome resource. It's crammed full of science and facts and it will really help steel you and give you the armour that you need to push back against diet culture. So if you wanna grab a copy, it's absolutely free. Like I said, you can go to Instagram which is untrapped_ au and click on the link in the bio and grab a copy there. Or you can go to the website untrapped.com.au and a little pop-up will come and you will grab it there. More free stuff, if you are struggling with relationship with your body during the last couple of years in particular, Befriending Your Body is my free e-course. All about self-compassion, this amazing skill of being kind and befriending your body. And it's like a super power, self-compassion, because we're all taught from the moment we're born, practically, to disconnect and dislike and judge and body police ourselves. Not exactly a recipe for happiness and satisfaction. 0:03:05.9 Louise: So, this little e-course will help build the skill of self-compassion, which is absolutely awesome because if we can learn to connect with our imperfect bodies, we can learn to inhabit them, to look after them and to push back against the forces that are still trying to get us separate from them. You can find the Befriending Your Body e-course from Instagram. So, untrapped_au. Click on the link, Befriending Your Body, it's all free, it's beautiful. It's just so lovely to practice self-compassion meditations. Self-compassion is built for difficult times. And my friends, we're in a difficult time. So, get hold of that if you haven't already. 0:03:47.6 Louise: Big shout out and hello to all of the Untrapped community, the Master Class and online community, who we meet every week. We push back against diet culture together. We share our stories, we've been supporting each other through the various challenges of lockdown and it's just a wonderful community of awesome human beings. So, if you're struggling and you want to join a community, as well as learning all of the skills of how to do things like intuitive eating, returning to a relationship with moving your body that doesn't feel like hard work. Understanding weight stigma and weight prejudice, relationship with body, all of that kind of stuff is covered in this comprehensive course, Untrapped, which I co-created in 2017 with 11 other amazing anti-diet health professionals. 0:04:39.9 Louise: So if you wanna grab a hold of this program and join our online community, please do and now's the time. We're meeting weekly. So every Saturday, I meet with the whole community and we have an awesome chinwag about everything that's going on. You also get all of the material. And there's other things that happened throughout the year like events and retreats. Well, if they're not scuppered by COVID. [chuckle] In usual times, we are able to do that. Well, if that's not being scuppered by COVID, of course. But in ordinary times, we do extra stuff. So find out more about Untrapped on the website, untrapped.com.au. You can also find a link from Insta. So, I think that's a run through all of the preamble. 0:05:23.5 Louise: Now, we arrive at the exciting time. I am so excited to bring you today's episode. You would have heard of the Fat Doctor UK by now, because she burst onto the internet a few months ago. And it seems like she's everywhere and she is loud and she is angry and she's a GP. So, here we have a very fierce, fat-positive voice, straight out of the UK medical profession, which is sorely needed. And I've just got so much admiration for Natasha and everything that she's doing. And I was actually listening to the Mindful Dietician podcast when I first heard Natasha being interviewed by the wonderful, Fi Sutherland. And during that conversation, she mentioned an awful situation in the UK where two kids were removed from their family for being fat. 0:06:13.9 Louise: And I'd actually seen that story and was so horrified that I kind of shelved it a way. But hearing Natasha talk about it and what she decided to do about it herself, it just inspired me. I just knew I had to talk to her. So this episode is everything. It's a long one, and it's a bloody rollercoaster. We go a lot of places during this epic, fantastic conversation. So you are going to laugh, you are going to cry. You're gonna cry more than once, because I know I did. You're gonna be absolutely furious, because just what we're talking about is just so horrific. We are in the 21st century and kids are being removed from loving homes simply because of BMI and a failure to do the impossible, which is lose weight and keep it off via the epic fail of dieting. 0:07:06.8 Louise: So look, this is really a challenging episode to listen to. It's a horrible story but the conversation with The Fat Doctor, Natasha herself is nothing short of inspiring. This woman is on a crusade. She has got heaps of other people involved in changing the landscape in a meaningful way. She is a real champion in the UK and across the planet, and I know you're gonna enjoy this conversation, but have some tissues close by and keep your slow breathing going to help contain the rage 'cause it's real. So without further ado, I give you me and The Fat Doctor herself, Natasha Larmie. So Tash, thank you so much for coming on the show. 0:07:49.0 Natasha Larmie: Thank you so much for having me, I am so excited. Due to the time difference, it's past midnight now and I've never been this awake past midnight before, so I'm really looking forward to this talk. 0:07:58.8 Louise: Oh my god, I am so impressed with your fired up-ness. [laughter] [laughter] 0:08:04.6 Louise: Tell me what is firing you up. 0:08:07.3 NL: Just in general or specifically about this case? 'Cause obviously a lot of things are firing me up, but I mean, obviously... 0:08:11.7 Louise: Yes. 0:08:12.5 NL: We wanna talk about this particular case that's firing me up. 0:08:16.3 Louise: Yes, what is this case? 0:08:17.9 NL: Yeah, what's going on with this case. So I think it was back in September, October last year that it happened, but I became aware of it a few months later, where two young people, one was actually over the age of 16 and his sibling, his younger sibling is under the age of 16, had been removed from a very loving home, for all intents and purposes, a very loving, happy home and placed into foster care by a judge simply because they were fat, and there is really no other reason at all. There was no other signs of child abuse, neglect, physical abuse, emotional abuse, nothing. It's just because they were fat and they failed to lose weight, a judge removed them from a loving home and placed them in foster care, and the older sibling, I think he's 16, 17, didn't actually have to go in because he was too old and the younger girl, she's 13, and she was removed from her home. 0:09:11.5 NL: And when I read about it I think I was so disgusted, it sort of broke... One newspaper reports on it in the UK, and it was several weeks later I guess, because the court transcript had come out, and I read it, I read the article, and I just thought, "Well, this is just the press over-exaggerating." And then someone said... One friend of mine sent me a text message saying, "No, no, no, just read the court's transcript. Transcript, read it," and sent me a link to the court transcript. I read the whole thing and within an hour I think I read the whole thing, and I was in tears. I was so full of rage that I just felt like something had to be done and started a petition. Have tried really hard to get answers, to push people to look into this case but unfortunately, haven't got very far because we're dealing with people who have very much kind of shut us down and have said, "It's not your concern. This is a judge who made this decision and there's nothing you can do about it." 0:10:05.4 Louise: Really? 0:10:05.7 NL: So I'm pretty fired up. Yeah. 0:10:07.2 Louise: Oh, god. Oh, I mean, when you say it out loud, like my whole body is responding. When I read the court transcripts last night, I put it off because I knew that I just probably would have a massive reaction and I was crying too, because this transcript is literally fucking heartbreaking. 0:10:26.5 NL: Tears. 0:10:27.2 Louise: That they're all admitting that this is... No one wants to be split up, they love each other but there's this stupid idea, as if everybody is completely unaware of science and weight science and how fucked dieting is. 0:10:41.5 NL: Yeah. 0:10:42.2 Louise: And how it doesn't fucking work. 0:10:44.4 NL: No. 0:10:44.7 Louise: And it's in a pandemic. 0:10:46.0 NL: Yeah, yeah. 0:10:46.7 Louise: If I fail to lose weight in a lockdown, when the world was going mad... 0:10:51.6 NL: And I mean, actually, the story begins I think 10 years previously, the story begins when they were three and six. These were two children, a three-year-old and a six-year-old who were picked up most likely because... I don't know if it's the same in Australia, but in the UK we have a screening program, so in year one, which is between the age of five and six, you are weighed and measured by a school nurse, and they... 0:11:13.4 Louise: Really? 0:11:13.9 NL: Yeah. And do you not have that? No. 0:11:15.6 Louise: No. 0:11:15.7 NL: We have. This is the National Child Measurement Programme, there's a acronym, but I didn't bother to learn. 0:11:21.2 Louise: Oh my god. 0:11:21.6 NL: But it happens in year one, which is when you're between five and six, and again in year six, which is when you're between 10 and 11. 0:11:29.0 Louise: Oh Christ. 0:11:29.2 NL: Two of the worst times to weigh people... 0:11:30.0 Louise: Correct, yeah. 0:11:32.0 NL: If you're think about it, because of course, especially around the 10, 11 stage some people are heading towards puberty, pre-puberty, some people are not, and so those that are heading towards pre-puberty will often have gained quite a bit of weight because you know that always happens before you go through puberty, you kind of go out before you go up, and that's completely normal, but they get penalised. But anyway, so I imagine... I don't know, because that's not actually in the transcripts but I'm guessing that at six, the older sibling, the boy was shown to be grossly overweight or whatever they call it, morbidly obese. They probably just measured his BMI, even though he was six, they probably measured it, which is just ridiculous 'cause that's not what BMI is for, and rather than looking at growth charts, which is what we should be doing at that age, they will have just sent a letter home and the teachers would have got involved and somewhere along the line, social services would have been called just because of the weight, nothing else, just because of the weight, and social services... 0:12:25.8 Louise: Just because of the percentile of a BMI. 0:12:28.5 NL: That was all it was. It was just weight. There was literally no concerns of ever been raised about these kids apart from their weight. And at the age of three and six, social services got involved and started forcing these children to diet, and they will say that's not what they did, they tried to promote healthy eating, but when you take a three-year-old and a six-year-old and you tell them... You restrict what they eat, you force them to exercise, and you tell them there's something wrong with them, you are putting them on a diet at the age of three to six, and we know, for sure, with evidence, you know, I know, and everyone listening should know by now that when you put young children on a diet like that at such a young age and you make such a big deal out of their weight, they are going to develop disordered eating patterns, and they are going to... 0:13:06.8 Louise: Of course. 0:13:07.8 NL: Gain weight, so... 0:13:09.3 Louise: They're going to instead, that's a trauma process happening. 0:13:12.2 NL: That's true. Yeah, it's... 0:13:13.8 Louise: A trauma to get child protective services involved. 0:13:17.8 NL: Yeah, and live there for 10 years, and then... 0:13:21.4 Louise: Ten years? 0:13:22.5 NL: Got to the stage where they took the proceedings further and further, so that they kept getting more and more involved. And eventually, they decided to make this a child protection issue. Up until that point, child social services were involved, but then, about a year before the court proceedings, something like that, before the pandemic. What happened then was that they gave these children a set amount of time to lose weight, and they enforced it. They bought them Fitbits so that they could monitor how much exercise they were doing, they bought them gym subscriptions, they sent them to Weight Watchers. [chuckle] 0:13:55.9 Louise: Fantastic, 'cause we know that works. 0:13:58.4 NL: We know that works. And of course, as you said, it was during a lockdown. So, Corona hits and there was lockdown, there was schools were closed, and for us, it was really quite a difficult time. And in spite of all of that... 0:14:13.0 Louise: I can't believe it. 0:14:14.9 NL: When the children failed to lose weight, the judge decided that it was in their best interest to remove them from their loving parents. And dad, from what I can tell from the court transcripts. I don't know if you noticed this as well. I think mom was trying very hard to be as compliant as possible. 0:14:26.9 Louise: She was, and even she lost weight, the poor thing. 0:14:30.0 NL: Yes, but I think dad almost seems to be trying to protect them, saying, "This is ridiculous. You can't take my kids away just because of their weight," and I... 0:14:38.1 Louise: Seems like he was in denial, which I fully understand. 0:14:41.1 NL: I would be too, I would be outraged. And it sounds like this young girl... I don't know much about the boy, but from what I can see from the transcripts, this young girl really became quite sad and low and depressed, and obviously, shockingly enough, her self esteem has been completely ruined by this process. 0:14:58.7 Louise: I know, I know. I really saw that in the transcript. This poor little girl was so depressed and getting bullied. And in the transcript, the way that that is attributed to her size and not what abuse they're inflicting on this family. 0:15:13.3 NL: Right. Yeah, really quite shocking. And then of course, the other thing you probably noticed from the transcript is there is no expert testimony at this court proceeding. None whatsoever. There is no psychologist. 0:15:24.0 Louise: Actually, there was. 0:15:25.8 NL: There was... 0:15:26.6 Louise: Dr... What's her name? 0:15:29.4 NL: Yes. You're right, there was a psychologist, and you're absolutely right. She was not an eating disorder specialist or a... She was just a psychologist. 0:15:37.3 Louise: She's a clinical psychologist. Dr. Van Rooyen, and she's based in Kent, and she does court reports for child abuse. Yes, and I can see her weight stigma in there. She's on the one hand acknowledging that the kids don't wanna go, that the kids will suffer mentally from being removed, but you can also see her unexamined weight stigma. And that you're right, where the hell are the weight scientists saying, "Actually, it's biologically impossible to lose weight and maintain it"? Because in the transcripts, they do mention that the kids have lost weight, failed to keep it off. 0:16:16.5 NL: Exactly, exactly. And it's just shocking to me that there would be such a lack of understanding and no desire to actually establish the science or the facts behind this. If I was a judge... I'm not a judge, I'm not an expert, but if I was a judge and I was making a decision to remove a child from a home based purely on the child's inability to lose weight, I would want to find out if it was possible that this child simply couldn't lose weight on their own. I would want to consult experts. I would want to find out if there was a genetic condition. I'm not saying she has a genetic condition. You and I know that she doesn't need to have a genetic condition in order to struggle to lose weight, that actually, the psychology behind this explains it. But even if you've not got to that stage yet, there was no doctors, there was no dietitians, there was no... No one was consulted. It was a psychologist who had no understanding of these specific issues, who, as you said, was clearly biased. There was social workers who said, "We've done everything we can because we've given them a Fitbit and we've sent them to Weight Watchers and sent them to the gym, but they refuse to comply." 0:17:24.9 Louise: I know. It's shocking. 0:17:28.4 NL: Yeah, it strikes me that we live in a world where you just can get away with this. It's just universally accepted that being fat is bad, and it's also your fault, your responsibility. The blame lies solely on the individual, even if that individual is a three-year-old child, it is. And if it's not the child, then of course, it's the parent. The parent has done something wrong. 0:17:52.1 Louise: Specifically the mother, okay. 0:17:53.5 NL: The mother, yeah. 0:17:54.4 Louise: The one with the penis, okay, let's not talk about him, 'cause that was absent. It was the mom. And the only possibility that was examined in this is that it's mom's fault for not being compliant, like you said. That's the only thing. Nothing else like the whole method is a stink-fest of ineffective bullshit. 0:18:13.5 NL: And there's the one point in the transcript when they talk about the fact that she had ice cream or chips or something in the house. 0:18:19.7 Louise: That's Ms. Keeley, their social worker, who went in and judged them. And did you notice that she took different scales in during that last visit? That last visit that was gonna determine whether or not they'd be removed, she took different scales in and weighed them. And they say, "Look, we acknowledge that that could've screwed up the results, but we're just gonna push on with removal." 0:18:43.0 NL: It was their agenda. 0:18:45.0 Louise: It was. It's terrifying, and it's long-term foster care for this poor little girl who doesn't wanna leave her mom. I'm so fired up about this, because the impact of removing yourself from your home because of your body, how on earth is this poor kid gonna be okay? 0:19:05.7 NL: This is my worry. How is mom going to be okay? How is that boy going to be okay? And how is that young, impressionable girl... My oldest son is a little bit older, and my younger son is a little bit younger, she's literally in between the two, and I'm watching what the last two years or last year and a half has done to them in terms of their mental and emotional well-being. And to me, even without social services' involvement, my children's mental health has deteriorated massively. And I cannot even begin to comprehend what this poor girl is going through. I cannot imagine how traumatized she is, and I cannot see how is she ever going to get over this, because she's been going through it since she was three, and it's not at the hand of a parent, it's at the hand of a social worker, it is the social worker's negligence. And what's interesting is a lot of social workers and people who work in social services have reached out to me since I first talked about this case, and they have all said the same thing, the amount of weight stigma in social services in the UK is shocking. It is shocking. It is perfectly acceptable to call parents abusers just because their children are overweight. 0:20:21.8 Louise: Jesus. 0:20:22.2 NL: No other reason, just your child is over the limit, is on the 90th percentile or whatever it is, your child is overweight and therefore you as a mother, usually as you said, it's a mother, are an abusive mother, because you've brought your child up in a loving environment but they failed to look the way that you want them to look, that's it. 0:20:41.0 Louise: Okay. So, that's me, right. My eldest is in the 99th percentile, so I am an abuser, I'm a child abuser. 0:20:47.3 NL: Child abuser, I can't believe I'm probably talking to one. 0:20:49.3 Louise: I know. [laughter] 0:20:49.9 NL: I can't believe I'm probably talking to one. And you know, the irony, my son's been really poorly recently and he's been up in... I mean we've spent most of our life in the hospital the last few weeks, and... 0:20:58.1 Louise: Oh dear. 0:20:58.3 NL: Went to see a paediatrician and they did the height and weight, and he is on the 98th percentile, my son has a 28-inch waist. He is a skeleton at the moment because he's been really ill, but he is mixed race, and we all know that the BMI is not particularly... 0:21:12.9 Louise: It's racist. 0:21:13.2 NL: Useful anyway, but it's massively racist, so my children have always been, if you weigh them, a lot heavier than they look, because I mean he's... There isn't an ounce of fat on him. My point is that BMI is complete utter bullshit and it doesn't deserve to exist. The fact that we've been using up until now is shameful and as a doctor, I cannot accept that we use this as a measure of whether a person is healthy and certainly as a measure of whether a child is healthy, because until recently, we were told you don't do BMIs on anyone under the age of 16 but that's just gone out the window now, everyone... 0:21:48.5 Louise: I know. 0:21:48.6 NL: Gets a BMI, even a six-year-old. 0:21:50.1 Louise: You get a BMI, you get a BMI. [laughter] I think it's not supposed to be used for an individual anything, it's a population level statistic. 0:22:01.1 NL: And a pretty crappy one at that. 0:22:02.3 Louise: It's a shitty one. 0:22:02.6 NL: It is like you said. 0:22:04.2 Louise: Yes. 0:22:04.6 NL: It's based on what European men, it's not particularly useful for men, it's not particularly useful for any other race, it's just useful perhaps. Even when it came out, like even when... What's his face? I forget his name right now, Ancel Keys. When he did that study that first look, brought in the BMI into our medical world as it were, yeah, even he said at the time it was alright. It's not the best, it's not the worst, it will do. It's the best out of the bunch. I mean he didn't even have much enthusiasm at the time. He said specifically it's not meant to be used as an individual assessment. And even the guy who kind of didn't invent it, but he sort of invented it as a measure of "obesity" and yet... And even he didn't have much good stuff to say about it. If he was selling the latest iPhone, Apple would have a lot to say about that. [laughter] I just... This fact that we've become obsessed and we know why this is. We know this is because of the diet industry, we know this is because of people trying to make money out of us and succeeding, very successful at making money out of us. 0:23:02.9 Louise: It's actually terrifying how successful this is because when I read this transcript, I've been doing a lot of work against the Novo Nordisk impact and how our modern oh, narrative has been essentially created by the pharmaceutical company that's producing all of the weight loss drugs, they have 80% of the weight loss drugs market and they've shamelessly said in their marketing that this is their drive to increase... That it's to create a sense of urgency for the medical management of obesity. And here it is, this is where it bleeds, because they're telling us this bullshit that it's going to reduce stigma. No, it's going to create eugenics. This is hideous what's happening here and I can't believe that the world didn't stop and that the front page of newspapers aren't saying like get fucked, like get these kids back. There's no outrage. 0:24:04.2 NL: No, there is none whatsoever. We got just over 2,000 people supporting the petition and as grateful as I am for that, that's just what the fuck, that's 2,000 people who live in a country of 68 million and only 2,000 people had something to say about this and, we... That's how much we hate fat kids and how much we hate fat people. We just don't see them as worthy and nobody wants to defend this young girl, nobody sort of feels sorry for her and I just... I can't get my head around this whole thing. It's funny because I didn't really know about it, a year ago I was completely clueless. It's all happened rather quickly for me that I've begun to understand Haze and begun to understand who Novo Nordisk was and what they are doing and what Semaglutide actually is and how it's going to completely change the world as we know it. 0:24:56.5 NL: I think this particular drug is going to become part of popular culture in the same way that Viagra is, we use that word now in novels and in movies. It's so popular and so understood, nobody talks about... I don't know, give me a name of any drug, like some blood pressure medication, they don't talk about it in the same way they talk about Viagra. But Semaglutide is going to be that next drug because they have tapped into this incredibly large population of people who are desperate to lose weight and they've got this medication that was originally used to treat diabetes, just like Viagra was originally used to treat blood pressure and have said, "Wow, look at this amazing side effect. It makes people lose weight as long as you run it. Let's market this." And the FDA approved it. I mean, no... 0:25:45.1 Louise: I know. 0:25:45.8 NL: No thought as to whether or not this drug is gonna have a massive impact on people in their insulin resistance and whether they're gonna develop diabetes down the line. I don't think they care. I don't think anybody actually cares. I think it's just that everybody is happy, woo-hoo, another way to treat fat people and make a good deal of money out of it. 0:26:03.9 Louise: Right? So, Semaglutide is... It's the latest weight loss drug to be approved by the FDA from Novo Nordisk and it is like the Mark II. So, they were selling Saxenda, Saxenda's here in Australia, they're pushing it out and this Semaglutide is like the Mark II, like I think of Saxenda as like Jan Brady, and Semaglutide is like Marcia. [laughter] 0:26:29.3 Louise: 'Cause it's like, "Oh my God, look at Semaglutide. Look at this amazing one year trial." [laughter] Marcia, Marcia, Marcia, like oh my God, we can make so much weight loss happen from this intervention. Why? Why do we need all of this weight loss, all these percentages? And, "Oh, we can lose 15% and 20%," and we don't need to for health, but okay. 0:26:53.3 NL: Yeah. The other thing that we have to remember about it, I don't think it's actually that much better. I've used all of these drugs in treating diabetes. So many years, I used these drugs. The beauty of it, of course, is that it's a tablet, and Saxenda is an injection. I'm assuming you have the injectable form, yeah? 0:27:09.9 Louise: That's right. You have to inject, and it's very expensive. 0:27:14.0 NL: It's extremely expensive, as will... Marcia Brady will be more expensive, I'm sure. 0:27:18.6 Louise: So high maintenance. [chuckle] 0:27:20.2 NL: Absolutely, but she is easier to administer. A lot of people don't like the idea of injecting themselves, but taking a tablet is dead easy. So, that's what makes this special, as it were, because it's the only one of that whole family that is oral, as opposed to injectable. 0:27:37.6 Louise: Well, that's interesting, because the paper with all of the big, shiny weight loss was injectable, it wasn't tablet. 0:27:43.7 NL: Oh, really? Oh, but they're marketing it as the oral version, definitely. That's the one that's got approved. It's brand name is... 0:27:51.3 Louise: Wegovy. 0:27:52.2 NL: Oh no, well, I have a completely different brand name. Is it different, maybe, in Australia? 0:27:57.1 Louise: Well, this is in America. In Australia, they haven't cornered us yet. I'm sure that they're trying to do it, but it was the FDA approval for Wegovy, [0:28:05.4] ____. 0:28:05.9 NL: So, they obviously changed the name. That's not the same one we use in diabetes. Clearly, they've had to revamp it a bit. Irrespective of oral, injectable, whatever, I think that this is going to... Novo Nordisk is sitting on a gold mine, and they know it. And it's going to change our lives, I think, because bariatric surgery is quite a big thing, and it's something that often people will say, "I'm not keen on doing." And the uptake is quite low still, and so, in bariatric... 0:28:35.2 Louise: In the UK, not here. 0:28:36.2 NL: Yeah, [chuckle] yeah, but bariatric surgeons are probably very afraid right now, because there's drugs coming along and taking all of their business away from them. 0:28:43.5 Louise: Actually, you know what Novo were doing? They're partnering with the bariatric surgeons. 0:28:46.2 NL: Of course they are. 0:28:46.9 Louise: And they're saying to them, "Hey, let's use your power and kudos, and our drugs can help your patients when they start to regain." 0:28:56.4 NL: Oh my gosh. 0:28:58.0 Louise: It's literally gateway drug. Once you start using a drug to reduce your weight, you have medicalized your weight, and it's a small upsell from there. So, I think this is all part of a giant marketing genius that is Novo Nordisk. But I'm interested to hear your concerns, 'cause I'm concerned as well with the use of diabetes drugs as weight loss medications, and I read about it being that they're hoping that people will take this drug like we take statins. So, everyone will take it preventatively for the rest of their lives. What's the long-term impact, do you think, of taking a double dose of a diabetes drug when you don't have diabetes? 0:29:43.5 NL: Well, first of all, they don't know. Nobody knows, because they've only done a study for a year, and just how many diet drugs have we put out there into the universe since the 1970s, and then taken them back a few years later, 'cause we've gone, "Oh, this kills"? If you've got diabetes and you take this drug because you've got insulin resistance and this drug helps you to combat your insulin resistance in the way that it works, you've already got diabetes. And so, there is no risk of you developing diabetes, and this drug does work, and so, I have no issue with the GLP-1 analogs in their use in diabetes. I think all the diabetes drugs are important, and I'm not an expert. But you've really got to ask yourself, if you take a healthy body and you act on a system within the pancreas and within the body, in a healthy, essentially, healthy body, healthy pancreas, you've got to ask yourself if it's going to worsen insulin resistance over time. It's actually going to lead to increased cases of diabetes. Now, they say it won't, but... 0:30:47.4 Louise: How do they know that? 'Cause I've read a study by Novo, sponsored, in rats, that showed that it did lead to insulin resistance long-term. 0:30:57.6 NL: Right, I think common sense, because we understand that the way that the body works, just common sense. The way the body works suggests to me that over long periods of time, taking this medication in a healthy person is going to lead to increased insulin resistance, which in turn will lead to diabetes. That is what common sense dictates. But of course, as you said, we don't know. We don't have a study. Nobody has looked into this. And it makes me sad that we are using a drug to treat a condition that isn't a condition. 0:31:30.2 Louise: I know, yeah. [chuckle] 0:31:32.4 NL: And inadvertently, potentially giving people a whole... 0:31:36.0 Louise: Creating a condition. 0:31:36.6 NL: Creating an actual medical condition, which we all know to be life-threatening if untreated. And so, I cannot fathom why... Well, I can, I understand. It's for financial reasons only, but I can't understand why there are doctors out there that want to prescribe this. This is the issue that I have. I'm a doctor, and I can't speak on behalf of drug companies or politicians or anyone else, but I can speak to what doctors are supposed to be doing, and we have a very strong code of conduct that we have to abide by. We have ethical and moral principles and legal obligations to our patients. And so, doing no harm and doing what is in your patients' best interest, and practising fairly and without discrimination, and giving people... Allowing them to make an informed choice where they are aware of the risks and the side effects and all the different treatment options. 0:32:28.0 NL: When it comes to being fat, again, it seems to have gone out the window. None of these things are happening. We wouldn't dream of addressing other issues this way, it's just fatness, because it's just so commonly, widely accepted that fatness is bad and you've got to do whatever you can to get rid of it. I've had someone tell me today that they are pregnant with their first child and they had their first conversation with the anesthetist, who told them they had to do whatever they could to lose weight before they had their baby. This is a pregnant woman. 0:32:58.1 Louise: Whatever they had to do? 0:33:00.1 NL: Whatever they had to do, and she said, "What do you want me to do, buy drugs off the streets?" And the anesthetist said... Wait for it. The anesthetist said, "It would be safer for you to use a Class A drugs than it would for you to be fat in pregnancy". The anesthetist said that to this woman. She told me this and I just went "Please just... Can you just report him?" 0:33:21.7 Louise: Shut the front door, Jesus Christ! 0:33:24.6 NL: Can you imagine? First of all, that's not true. Second of all, he is saying that it is better to be a drug addict than to be a fat person. This is no judgment on drug addicts, but you do not encourage your patients to use Class A drugs to lose weight. That's stupid. Imagine if he'd said that about anything else, but in his... And it was a man, in his world, for whatever reason, his ethics just abandons them all in favor of fat shaming a woman. 0:33:52.4 Louise: This is where we're at with, it's self examined. It's like there's a massive black hole of stigma just operating unchallenged effortlessly and actually growing, thanks to this massive marketing department, Novo. It's terrify... That poor lady, I'm so glad she's found you and I hope she's not gonna go down the Class A drug route. [laughter] 0:34:19.3 NL: She's definitely not, but she was quite traumatized. She's on a Facebook group that I started and it's great because it's 500 people who are just so supportive of each other and it was within a few minutes 50 comments going "What a load of crap, I can't believe this," "You're great, this doctor is terrible". But it just stuck to me that one of my colleagues would dare, would have the audacity to do something as negligent as that. And I'm gonna call it what it is. That's negligence. But I'm seeing it all the time. I'm seeing it in healthcare, I'm seeing it in Social Services, I'm seeing it in schools, I'm seeing it in the workplace, I'm seeing it everywhere. You cannot escape it. And as a fat person, who was in the morbidly, super fat, super obese stage where she's just basically needs to just be put down like a... 0:35:16.3 Louise: Oh my gosh, it's awful. 0:35:18.5 NL: And as that person, I hear all of these things and I just think "I'm actually a fairly useful member of society, I've actually never been ill, never required any medication, managed to give birth to my children, actually to be fair, they had to come out my zip as opposed to through the tunnel." But that wasn't because I was fat, that was because they were awkward. But this anesthetist telling this woman that she's too fat to have a baby. I was just like "But I am the same weight. I am the same BMI as you". And I had three and I had no problems with my anesthetics. In fact after my third cesarean section, I walked out the hospital 24 hours later, happy as Larry, didn't have any problems. And I know people who were very, very thin that had a massive problems after their cesarean. So there's not even evidence to show how dangerous it is to have a BMI over 35 and still... And then caught when it comes to an anesthetic. This isn't even evidence-based, it's just superstition at this point. 0:36:12.8 Louise: It's a biased based and the guidelines here in Australia, so I think above 35 women are advised to have a cesarean because it's too dangerous. And women are not allowed to give birth in rural hospitals, they have to fly to major cities. So imagine all of... And don't even get me started on bias in medical care for women. It's everywhere, like you said, and it's unexamined and all of this discrimination in the name of, apparently, healthcare. It's scary. 0:36:43.9 NL: It really is. Gosh, you've got me fired up, it's almost 1:00 in the morning and I'm fired up. I'm never gonna get to sleep now. [laughter] 0:36:51.7 Louise: Okay, I don't wanna tell you this, but I will. 'Cause we're talking about how on earth is this possible, like why aren't there any medical experts involved to talk about this from a scientific basis, and I'm worried that even if they did have medical people in the court, they wouldn't have actually stuck up for the kid. I found this JAMA article from 2011. It's a commentary on whether or not large kids should be removed from their families, and it was supportive of that. 0:37:18.0 NL: Oh gosh. Of course it was. 0:37:22.0 Louise: And in response to that commentary, the medpage, which is a medical website, a newsletter kind of thing. They did a poll of health professionals asking should larger kids removed from their families, and 54% said yes. 0:37:40.7 NL: Of course. 0:37:41.3 Louise: I know. Isn't that dreadful? One comment on that said "It seems to me the children in a home where they have become morbidly obese might be suffering many other kinds of abuse as well, viewing in the size of a child. 'Cause we've all gotten bigger since the '80s. We're a larger population and viewing that as abuse and as a fault of parenting. Unbelievable. I also had a little dig around Australia, 'cause it's not isolated in the UK, there's so many more cases. 0:38:16.9 NL: They have. Yeah. 0:38:17.8 Louise: And I think actually in the UK, it might be a lot more common than in Australia. 0:38:22.1 NL: Yeah, I can believe that. 0:38:23.5 Louise: But it did happen here in 2012, there was some report of two children being removed from their families because of the size of the kids. And the media coverage was actually quite dreadful. I'll put in the show notes, this article, and the title is "Victorian authorities remove obese children, removed from their parents". So even the title is wrong, couldn't even get their semantics right. There's a picture, you can imagine what picture would accompany... 0:38:55.2 NL: Well of course it can't be of the actual children, because I think it leads to lawsuit. I'm assuming it's a belly. Is there a belly? Is there a fat person in it or a fat child eating a burger? 0:39:06.2 Louise: Yes. [laughter] 0:39:07.1 NL: Sorry, it's either the belly or the fat person eating the burger. So, a fat child eating the burger, sorry. 0:39:11.9 Louise: Helpfully, to help the visually impaired, the picture had caption and the caption reads "Overweight brother and sister sitting side by side on a sofa eating takeaway food and watching the TV." So not at all stereotyped, very sensitive, nuanced article this one. And then we hear from Professor John Dixon, who is a big part of obesity Inc here in Australia. He told the ABC that "Sometimes taking children away from their parents is the best option." In the same article, he also admits "There's no services available that can actually help kids lose weight", and he says that it's not the parents fault. Helpfully, this article also states that "Obesity is the leading cause of illness and death in Australia." [laughter] 0:39:58.7 NL: I love it when I hear that. How have they figured that out? What do they do to decide that? Where does this... 0:40:08.4 Louise: They don't have to provide any actual evidence. 0:40:10.5 NL: Right. They just say it. 0:40:12.1 Louise: Got it. 0:40:13.0 NL: Just say it. 0:40:14.4 Louise: Diet. And I checked just to make sure, 'cause in case I've missed anything. 0:40:18.4 NL: Yeah. 0:40:19.6 Louise: The top five causes of death in Australia in 2019; heart disease, number two dementia, number three stroke, number four malignant neoplasm of trachea bronchus and lung. 0:40:30.4 NL: Lung cancer. 0:40:30.9 Louise: Lung cancer. 0:40:31.5 NL: That's lung cancer. 0:40:32.3 Louise: And number five chronic lower respiratory disease. 0:40:38.4 NL: So translation. Heart attacks, dementia... In the UK it's actually dementia first, then heart attacks. So dementia, heart attacks, stroke, same thing in the UK, and then lung cancer and COPD. Both of those are smoking-related illnesses. And I can say quite safely that they are smoking-related illness because the chance of developing lung cancer or COPD if you haven't smoked is minuscule. So what the people are doing is they're saying, "Well, we can attribute all of these heart attacks and strokes and dementia to "obesity". And the way we can do that is we just look at all these people that have died, and if they are fat we'll just assume it's their fat that caused their heart disease. 0:41:20.0 NL: To make it very clear to everybody that is listening, if you have a BMI of 40, we can calculate your risk of developing a heart attack or a stroke over the next 10 years using a very sophisticated calculator actually, it's been around for some time. It's what we use in the UK. I'm assuming Australia has a similar one, don't know what it's called there. In the UK it's called a QRISK. So I've done this. I have calculated. I have found a woman, I called her Jane. I gave her a set of blood pressure and cholesterol, and I filled in a template. And then I gave her a BMI of 20. And then I gave her a BMI of 40. And I calculated the difference in her risk. I calculated the difference in her risk, and the difference in her risk was exactly 3%. The difference in her risk if she was a smoker was 50%. She was 50% more likely to have a heart attack if she was a smoker, but only 3% more likely to have a heart attack if she had a BMI of 40 instead of a BMI of 25. 0:42:15.0 NL: To put it into perspective, she was significantly more likely to have a heart attack if she was a migraine sufferer, if she had a mental health condition, if she had lupus or rheumatoid arthritis, if she was Asian, if she was a man, and all of those things dramatically increased her risk more than having a BMI of 40. So it's just very important that doctors will admit, 'cause it's about admitting to a simple fact, this calculator we use to predict people's risks. So if we know that weight only has a 3-4% impact on our cardiovascular risk as opposed to smoking which has a 50% impact, as opposed to aging which is why most people die because they get old and let's face it everybody dies some time. 0:43:04.0 NL: So what's happening is the... Whoever they are, are taking all these deaths from heart disease which was likely caused by the person aging, by the person being male or just being old and being over the age of 75, your risk of heart disease goes up massively irrespective of your weight. So instead of saying, "Well, it's just heart disease", they've gone, "Well, it's heart disease in a fat person and therefore it was the fatness that caused the heart disease." And that is offensive to me to the point that now, I have heard... And this is awful in this year, our patients that are dying of COVID, if they die of COVID in the UK, it's actually quite heart breaking, it's happened to someone that I was close to. If they die of COVID in the UK, and they happen to be fat, the doctor writes "obesity" on their death certificate... 0:43:51.8 Louise: No way. 0:43:52.4 NL: As a cause of death. They died of COVID. 0:43:55.2 Louise: What? 0:43:55.5 NL: They died of COVID. That's what they died of. They died of this terrible virus that is killing people in their droves but people are under the misguided impression that being fat predisposes you to death from COVID, which is not true. It's not true. That is a complete gross misrepresentation of the facts. But we've now got doctors placing that on a person's death certificate. Can you imagine how that family feels? Can you imagine what it feels like to get this death certificate saying, "Your family member is dead from COVID but it's their fault 'cause they were obese." And how can the doctor know? How could the doctor know that? 0:44:34.2 Louise: How can they do that? 0:44:35.6 NL: How can they do that? And this is my point, this doctor that's turning around and saying it's safer for children to be removed from their loving home. Obviously, this person has no idea of the psychological consequences of being removed from your family. But it's safer for that person to be removed from their home than to remain in their home and remain fat. What will you achieve? Is this person going to lose weight? No. I can tell you what this person is going to do. This person is going to develop... 0:44:58.9 Louise: They even say that. They even say that in the transcripts. We don't think that they'll get any more supervision. 0:45:03.1 NL: Yeah. In fact, we're gonna get less supervision because it's not a loving parent. You're going to develop, most likely an eating disorder. You're going to develop serious psychological scars. That trauma is going to lead to mental health problems down the line. And chances are you're just gonna get bigger. You're not gonna get smaller because we know that 95% of people who lose weight gain it all back again. We know that two-thirds of them end up heavier. We know that the more you diet, the heavier you're gonna get. And that actually, this has been shown to be like a dose-response thing in some studies. So the more diets you go on, the higher your weight is going to get. If you don't diet ever in your life, chances are you're not gonna have as many weight problems later on down the line. So, as you're saying, we are living in a society that's got fatter. And there's lots of reasons for that. It's got to do with the food that we're eating now. That we're all eating. That we're all consuming. 0:45:55.1 Louise: Food supply. Only some of us will express from there the epigenetic glory of becoming higher weight. 0:46:02.0 NL: Right. And that's the thing, isn't it? Genetics, hormones, trauma, medications. How many people do I know that are on psychiatric medications and have gained weight as a result, Clozapine or... It's just what's gonna happen. You name it. Being female, having babies, so many things will determine your weight. 0:46:21.0 Louise: Getting older. We're allowed to get... We're supposed to get bigger as we get older. 0:46:25.1 NL: And then you know that actually, there are so many studies nowadays, so many studies that we've labeled it now that show that actually being fat can be beneficial to you. There's studies that show that if you end up in ICU with sepsis, you're far more likely to survive if you're fat. If you've got a BMI over 30, you're more likely to survive. There's studies that show that if you have chronic kidney disease and you're on dialysis, the chances of you surviving more long-term are significantly higher if you're fat. Heart failure, kidney disease, ICU admissions, in fact, even after a heart attack, there's evidence to show that you're more likely to survive if you're fat. And they call this the obesity paradox. We have to call it a paradox because we cannot, for one moment, admit that actually there's a possibility that being fat isn't all that bad for you in the first place and we got it wrong. Rather than admit that we got it wrong, we've labeled a paradox because we have to be right here, we have to... 0:47:18.0 Louise: Yeah, it's like how totally bad and wrong, except in certain rare, weird conditions, as opposed to, "Let's just drop the judgment and look at all of this much less hysterically." 0:47:29.5 NL: Yeah. And studies have shown that putting children on a diet, talking about weight, weight-shaming them, weighing them, any of these things, have been linked to and have been demonstrated to cause disordered eating and be a serious risk for direct factor for weight gain. And that, in my opinion, is the important thing to remember in this particular case, because as I said, social services start in weight-shaming, judging, and talking about weight when these children were three and six, and they did that for 10 years. And in doing so, they are responsible for the fact that these children went on to gain weight, because that's what the evidence shows. And there's no question about this evidence, there's multiple papers to back it up. 0:48:14.1 NL: There's an article published in Germany in 2016, there was an article published last year by the University of Cambridge, and even the American Academy of Pediatrics agrees that talking about weight, putting children on a diet, in fact, even a parent going on a diet is enough to damage that child and increase their risk of developing disordered eating patterns and weight gain. 0:48:37.9 NL: And so, as far as I'm concerned, that to me, is evidence enough to say that it's actually social services that should be in front of a judge, not these children, but it's the social workers that should be held to account. And I have written... And this is something that is very important to say. I wrote to the council, the local authority, and I've written a very long letter, I've published it on my website. You can read it anytime, anyone can read it. And I wrote to them and I said, "This is the evidence. Here are all the links. As far as I'm concerned, you guys got it terribly wrong and you have demonstrated that there is a high degree of weight bias that is actually causing damage to children. I am prepared to come and train you for free and teach all of your social workers all about weight bias, weight stigma, and to basically dispel the myths that obviously are pervading your social work department." And they ignored me. I wrote to politicians in the area. They ignored me. I wrote to a counselor who's a member of my political party, who just claimed, "Yeah, I'll look into it for you." Never heard from her again. Yeah, nobody cares. 0:49:44.0 Louise: It's just such a lack of concern. 0:49:45.7 NL: I didn't even do it in a critical way. I had to do it in a kind of, "I will help you. Let me help you. I'm offering my services for free. I do charge, normally, but I'll do it for free for you guys." No one is interested. Nobody wants to know. And that makes me really sad, that they weren't even willing to hear me out. 0:50:03.0 Louise: I can't believe they didn't actually even answer you. 0:50:06.5 NL: Didn't answer me, didn't respond to any of my messages, none of the counselors, none of the... Nobody has responded, and I've tried repeatedly. 0:50:14.4 Louise: So, this is in West Sussex, yeah? 0:50:16.7 NL: That's right, West Sussex, that's right. 0:50:18.0 Louise: You know what's weird about that? I've actually attended a wedding at that council, that my ex-father-in-law got married there. And when I saw the picture there, I'm like, "Oh my God, I've actually been there." So, I had a poke, and I don't know if you know this, but hopefully, in the future, when those children, C and D, finally decide to sue the council, that they can use this as evidence. There is a report from a... It's called a commissioner's progress report on children services in West Sussex from October 2020, which details how awful the service has been for the past few years, and huge issues with how they're running things. And it says, "Quite fragile and unstable services in West Sussex." So, this family who've had their kids removed were being cared for by a service with massive problems, are being referred to programs that don't work, and that there's a massive miscarriage of justice. 0:51:17.3 NL: And I'm glad you're talking about it, and I'm glad we're talking about it. And I wish that we had the platform to talk about it more vocally. I'd want to be able to reach out to these... To see patients... They're not patients, child C and D. I want to be able to reach out to mum as well, and say... 0:51:36.3 Louise: I just wanna land in Sussex and just walk around the street saying, "Where are you? I wanna help." 0:51:40.2 NL: "Where are you? And let me hug you." And I'm very interest to know, I'd be very interested to know the ethnic origin of these young people. 0:51:48.9 Louise: And the socio-economic status of these people. 0:51:50.2 NL: Socio-economic status, 100%. I would very much like to know that. That would make a huge... I think that I can guess, I'm not going to speculate, but I had a very lovely young woman contact me from a... She was now an adult, but she had experienced this as a child. She had been removed from her home and was now an adult, and she had been in foster care, in social services, for a few years, and had obviously contact with her mum but hadn't been reunited with her mum ever. So it wasn't like it was for a time and then she went back. And we talked about this. She was in a London borough, I shall not name the borough, but I know for a fact that her race would've played a role in this, because she was half-Black, half-Turkish. 0:52:39.2 NL: And there're a few things in that court transcript that caught my attention. I don't know if you noticed there was a mention of the smell from the kitchen, and they didn't specifically said, you know, mould, or you know that there was mould in the kitchen, or there was something in the kitchen that was rotting, something like that, 'cause I think they would have specified. It was just a smell. And that made me wonder, is this to do with just the fact that maybe this family lived in poor housing or was it the type of food that they were cooking for their children? Is there a language issue, is there a cultural issue. What exactly is going on? 'cause we don't know that from the court transcript, so that's another thing that... Another piece of the puzzle that I would really be interested in. Is this a white wealthy family? Probably not. I don't think they are. 0:53:27.2 Louise: Yeah it didn't struck me that way either. Yeah, yeah this is potentially marginalization and racism happening that... 0:53:35.1 NL: Yeah. 0:53:35.9 Louise: And here in Australia, we've got an awful history of how we treated First Nations people and we removed indigenous kids from their families, on the basis of like we know better, and I just... Yeah honestly, elements of that here, like we know better. 0:53:51.5 NL: Yes. Right, this is it. We know better than you have to parent your child. I am have always been a big believer of not restricting my children's feed in any way. I was restricted, and I made the decision when we had the kids that there would just be no restriction at all. I have like been one of those parents that had just been like, that's the draw with all the sweet treats in it. They're not called treats, they're just sweets and chocolate and candy, there it is. It's within reachable distance. Help yourself whenever you want, ice pops in the freezer, there's no like you have to eat that to get your pudding. None of that. 0:54:27.6 NL: My kids have just been able to eat whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted, I never restricted anything, I wanted them to be intuitive eaters. And of course they are, and what amazes me is now my teenage son, when we were on lockdown, and he was like homeschooled, he would come downstairs, make himself a breakfast, and there was like three portions of fruit and veg on his plate, and not because someone told him that he had to, but just because he knew it was good for him and he knew it was healthy, there was like a selection, his plate was always multi-colored, he was drinking plenty of water. He would go and cook it, he cooked himself lunch, he knew that he can eat sweets and crisps and chocolate whenever he wanted to, and he didn't, he just didn't. Like it was there, that drawn, it gets emptied out because it's become a bit... But no, they don't take it, and sometimes they do, 'cause they fancy it, but most of the times they don't. And that is my decision as a parent, I believe that I have done what is in their best interest, I believe that I will prove over time that this has had a much better impact on their health, not restricting them. 0:55:26.4 Louise: Absolutely, Yeah. 0:55:27.6 NL: But the point is they're my children, and it was my damn choice, and even if my child is on the 98th percentile, it's still my damn choice, nobody gets to tell me how to parent my child. That is my child, I know what's best for them. And I believe that my children are going to prove the fact that this is a great way of parenting, and I know that actually most of their friends who had, were not allowed to eat the food that they wanted to eat used to come over to our house and just kind of like wide eyed. And they binge, they binge, you know, to the point that I have to restrict them and say I actually I don't think mom would like that if I gave that to you. 0:56:00.0 Louise: We know that that's what we do when we put kids in food deserts, we breed binge eating and food insecurity, and trying to teach our kids to have a relaxed and enjoyable relationship with food is what intuitive eating is all about. And without a side salad of fat phobia, we're not doing this relationship with food stuff in order to make sure you're thin, we're doing this to make sure that you feel really safe and secure in the world, and you know health is sometimes controllable and sometimes not, and this kind of mad obsession we have with controlling our food and the ability it will give us like everlasting life is weird. 0:56:39.0 NL: Yeah. 0:56:39.7 Louise: Yeah. Gosh, I'm so glad you're parenting those kids in that way and I've noticed the same thing with my kids. Like my kids, we are a family of intuitive eaters and it's just really relaxed, and there's variety, and they go through these little love affairs with foods, and it's really cute. [chuckle] And they're developing their palettes, and their size is not up to me. 0:57:05.8 NL: Yeah. 0:57:06.4 Louise: Yeah. 0:57:07.4 NL: Right. 0:57:08.1 Louise: It's up to me to help them thrive. 0:57:10.7 NL: That's right. And when people talk about health, I often hear people talking about health, and whenever they ask me that question, you know, surely you can agree that being fat is not good for your health, well, I'll always kinda go, "Oh Really? Could you just do me a favor here and define health?" Because I spend my whole life trying to define health, and I'm not sure that I've got there yet, but I can tell you without a doubt that this for me, in my personal experience as a doctor... And I've been a doctor for a long time now, and I see patients all the time, and I'm telling you that in my experience, the most important thing for your health is your mental and emotional well-being, that if you are not mentally and emotionally well, it doesn't matter how good your cholesterol is, it doesn't matter whether or not you've got diabetes, that is irrelevant, because if you're not mental and emotional... I'm not saying that 'cause you won't enjoy life, I mean, it has an impact on your physical health. And I spend most of my day dealing with either people who are depressed or anxious, and that's what they've presented with, or they've presented with symptoms that are being made worse or exacerbated by their mental and emotional pull, mental and emotional well-being. 0:58:19.1 NL: So giving my children the best start in life has always been about giving them a good mental and emotional well, start. It's about giving... It's not just teaching them resilience, but teaching them to love themselves, to be happy with who they are, to not feel judged or to not feel that they are anything other than the brilliant human beings that they are. And I believe that that is what's going to stand them in the greatest... In the greatest... I've lost my words now, but that's what's gonna get them through life, and that's why they're going to be healthy. And how much sugar they eat actually is quite irrelevant compared to the fact that they love themselves and their bodies, and they are great self-esteem, we all know that happiness is... Happiness is the most important thing when it comes to quality of life and happiness is the most important thing when it comes to length of life and illness, all of it. Happiness trumps everything else. 0:59:07.0 Louise: And to you know what that comes from. Happiness comes from a sense of belonging, belonging in our bodies, belonging in ourselves, belonging in the community, and all of this othering that's happening with the message that everyone belongs unless they're fat. That sucks ass and that needs to stop. This poor little kid when, in the transcript it mentioned that they found a suicide note... 0:59:29.9 NL: Yes. 0:59:30.1 Louise: And some pills. And she's fucking like 13. 0:59:34.8 NL: Yeah, and they called it a cry for help. 0:59:36.0 Louise: They called it cry for help 'cause of her body. 0:59:38.1 NL: Yeah. 0:59:38.4 Louise: They didn't recognize it since they've been sniffing around threatening to take her off her mom, and because she's being bullied for her size at school. This is like a calamitous failure to see the impact of weight stigma. 0:59:52.9 NL: She's been told that it's her fault that she's been taken away from her mum. They had told her that because she didn't succeed in losing weight, that she doesn't get to live with her mother anymore. Can you imagine? 1:00:02.4 Louise: So her mom. I can't even wrap my head around that. I can't. 1:00:07.2 NL: Well, she feels suicidal, I think I would too. I felt suicidal at her age and for a lot less. It's terrible, it's terrible. And I hope she's hanging on and I hope that... 1:00:14.6 Louise: I wanna tell her that she is awesome. 1:00:17.4 NL: Yes. 1:00:17.9 Louise: If she ever gets to listen to this. But I know the impact. So like when I was 11, my mom left and I remember how much it tore out my heart. 1:00:26.4 NL: Yeah. 1:00:26.9 Louise: You're 11... 1:00:27.5 NL: Yeah. 1:00:28.3 Louise: 12, 13. This is not the time to do this to kids, and this whole idea... The judge said something like, "Oh, you know, gosh, this is gonna be bad... " But here it is, I will read it to you. This is... She actually wrote a letter to the kids. 1:00:42.5 NL: Oh, gosh. 1:00:43.7 Louise: "I know you will feel that in making this o

Imagine being 13 years old, standing in front of a judge, accused of the "crime" of being fat. Imagine the incredible pain you would feel as the judge announces that in the interests of your 'health', you will be removed from your family. But there's no need to imagine. During the height of the UK COVID-19 pandemic, two children were removed from their loving home and put into foster care. The ONLY reason was that both kids were fat. This harrowing story raised the ire of the fabulous Fat Doctor UK, who advocated and pleaded and offered to help educate the social workers, judge, and anyone who would listen, but her valiant attempts have so far been ignored. Two kids have lost their families, thanks to fatphobia. Join me and the fabulous Fat Doctor UK as we get UTTERLY fired up about this travesty of justice. This is a tough listen so please make sure you have adequate spoons. Show Transcript 0:00:12.7 Louise: Welcome to All Fired Up. I'm Louise, your host. And this is the podcast where we talk all things anti-diet. Has diet culture got you in a fit of rage? Is the injustice of the beauty ideal? Getting your knickers in a twist? Does fitspo, make you wanna spit spo? Are you ready to hurl if you hear one more weight loss tip? Are you ready to be mad, loud and proud? Well, you've come to the right place. Let's get all fired up. 0:00:40.3 Louise: Hello, diet culture drop-outs. I'm so pleased to be with you again and very excited about today's episode. Okay, so first of all, I wanna say a massive thank you to all of the listeners who are so faithful and loving. And I love all your messages and emails, so keep them coming. And if you love the show, don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss the episodes as they pop out on a roughly monthly basis. And if you love us, give us five stars because the more five star reviews we get, particularly on Apple Podcasts, the louder the message is, the more listeners we get and the quicker we can topple diet culture. And that's the objective here. 0:01:24.7 Louise: If you're looking for some free stuff to help you with your anti-diet journey, gosh I hate that word. Let's call it an adventure. Anti-Diet Adventure, 'cause that's what it is. It's rocking and rolling. It's up and down. It's not predictable. But if you're looking for a resource where you might be going to medical visit, you might be trying to explain just what you're doing to friends and family, look no further than the free e-book; Everything You've Been Told About Weightloss Is Bullshit, written by me and the Anti-Diet Advanced doctor dietician, Dr Fiona Willer. In it we're busting the top 10 myths that float around diet culture like poo in a swimming pool, about the relationship between health and weight, and we're busting myths left, right and centre. 0:02:06.8 Louise: It's a really awesome resource. It's crammed full of science and facts and it will really help steel you and give you the armour that you need to push back against diet culture. So if you wanna grab a copy, it's absolutely free. Like I said, you can go to Instagram which is untrapped_ au and click on the link in the bio and grab a copy there. Or you can go to the website untrapped.com.au and a little pop-up will come and you will grab it there. More free stuff, if you are struggling with relationship with your body during the last couple of years in particular, Befriending Your Body is my free e-course. All about self-compassion, this amazing skill of being kind and befriending your body. And it's like a super power, self-compassion, because we're all taught from the moment we're born, practically, to disconnect and dislike and judge and body police ourselves. Not exactly a recipe for happiness and satisfaction. 0:03:05.9 Louise: So, this little e-course will help build the skill of self-compassion, which is absolutely awesome because if we can learn to connect with our imperfect bodies, we can learn to inhabit them, to look after them and to push back against the forces that are still trying to get us separate from them. You can find the Befriending Your Body e-course from Instagram. So, untrapped_au. Click on the link, Befriending Your Body, it's all free, it's beautiful. It's just so lovely to practice self-compassion meditations. Self-compassion is built for difficult times. And my friends, we're in a difficult time. So, get hold of that if you haven't already. 0:03:47.6 Louise: Big shout out and hello to all of the Untrapped community, the Master Class and online community, who we meet every week. We push back against diet culture together. We share our stories, we've been supporting each other through the various challenges of lockdown and it's just a wonderful community of awesome human beings. So, if you're struggling and you want to join a community, as well as learning all of the skills of how to do things like intuitive eating, returning to a relationship with moving your body that doesn't feel like hard work. Understanding weight stigma and weight prejudice, relationship with body, all of that kind of stuff is covered in this comprehensive course, Untrapped, which I co-created in 2017 with 11 other amazing anti-diet health professionals. 0:04:39.9 Louise: So if you wanna grab a hold of this program and join our online community, please do and now's the time. We're meeting weekly. So every Saturday, I meet with the whole community and we have an awesome chinwag about everything that's going on. You also get all of the material. And there's other things that happened throughout the year like events and retreats. Well, if they're not scuppered by COVID. [chuckle] In usual times, we are able to do that. Well, if that's not being scuppered by COVID, of course. But in ordinary times, we do extra stuff. So find out more about Untrapped on the website, untrapped.com.au. You can also find a link from Insta. So, I think that's a run through all of the preamble. 0:05:23.5 Louise: Now, we arrive at the exciting time. I am so excited to bring you today's episode. You would have heard of the Fat Doctor UK by now, because she burst onto the internet a few months ago. And it seems like she's everywhere and she is loud and she is angry and she's a GP. So, here we have a very fierce, fat-positive voice, straight out of the UK medical profession, which is sorely needed. And I've just got so much admiration for Natasha and everything that she's doing. And I was actually listening to the Mindful Dietician podcast when I first heard Natasha being interviewed by the wonderful, Fi Sutherland. And during that conversation, she mentioned an awful situation in the UK where two kids were removed from their family for being fat. 0:06:13.9 Louise: And I'd actually seen that story and was so horrified that I kind of shelved it a way. But hearing Natasha talk about it and what she decided to do about it herself, it just inspired me. I just knew I had to talk to her. So this episode is everything. It's a long one, and it's a bloody rollercoaster. We go a lot of places during this epic, fantastic conversation. So you are going to laugh, you are going to cry. You're gonna cry more than once, because I know I did. You're gonna be absolutely furious, because just what we're talking about is just so horrific. We are in the 21st century and kids are being removed from loving homes simply because of BMI and a failure to do the impossible, which is lose weight and keep it off via the epic fail of dieting. 0:07:06.8 Louise: So look, this is really a challenging episode to listen to. It's a horrible story but the conversation with The Fat Doctor, Natasha herself is nothing short of inspiring. This woman is on a crusade. She has got heaps of other people involved in changing the landscape in a meaningful way. She is a real champion in the UK and across the planet, and I know you're gonna enjoy this conversation, but have some tissues close by and keep your slow breathing going to help contain the rage 'cause it's real. So without further ado, I give you me and The Fat Doctor herself, Natasha Larmie. So Tash, thank you so much for coming on the show. 0:07:49.0 Natasha Larmie: Thank you so much for having me, I am so excited. Due to the time difference, it's past midnight now and I've never been this awake past midnight before, so I'm really looking forward to this talk. 0:07:58.8 Louise: Oh my god, I am so impressed with your fired up-ness. [laughter] [laughter] 0:08:04.6 Louise: Tell me what is firing you up. 0:08:07.3 NL: Just in general or specifically about this case? 'Cause obviously a lot of things are firing me up, but I mean, obviously... 0:08:11.7 Louise: Yes. 0:08:12.5 NL: We wanna talk about this particular case that's firing me up. 0:08:16.3 Louise: Yes, what is this case? 0:08:17.9 NL: Yeah, what's going on with this case. So I think it was back in September, October last year that it happened, but I became aware of it a few months later, where two young people, one was actually over the age of 16 and his sibling, his younger sibling is under the age of 16, had been removed from a very loving home, for all intents and purposes, a very loving, happy home and placed into foster care by a judge simply because they were fat, and there is really no other reason at all. There was no other signs of child abuse, neglect, physical abuse, emotional abuse, nothing. It's just because they were fat and they failed to lose weight, a judge removed them from a loving home and placed them in foster care, and the older sibling, I think he's 16, 17, didn't actually have to go in because he was too old and the younger girl, she's 13, and she was removed from her home. 0:09:11.5 NL: And when I read about it I think I was so disgusted, it sort of broke... One newspaper reports on it in the UK, and it was several weeks later I guess, because the court transcript had come out, and I read it, I read the article, and I just thought, "Well, this is just the press over-exaggerating." And then someone said... One friend of mine sent me a text message saying, "No, no, no, just read the court's transcript. Transcript, read it," and sent me a link to the court transcript. I read the whole thing and within an hour I think I read the whole thing, and I was in tears. I was so full of rage that I just felt like something had to be done and started a petition. Have tried really hard to get answers, to push people to look into this case but unfortunately, haven't got very far because we're dealing with people who have very much kind of shut us down and have said, "It's not your concern. This is a judge who made this decision and there's nothing you can do about it." 0:10:05.4 Louise: Really? 0:10:05.7 NL: So I'm pretty fired up. Yeah. 0:10:07.2 Louise: Oh, god. Oh, I mean, when you say it out loud, like my whole body is responding. When I read the court transcripts last night, I put it off because I knew that I just probably would have a massive reaction and I was crying too, because this transcript is literally fucking heartbreaking. 0:10:26.5 NL: Tears. 0:10:27.2 Louise: That they're all admitting that this is... No one wants to be split up, they love each other but there's this stupid idea, as if everybody is completely unaware of science and weight science and how fucked dieting is. 0:10:41.5 NL: Yeah. 0:10:42.2 Louise: And how it doesn't fucking work. 0:10:44.4 NL: No. 0:10:44.7 Louise: And it's in a pandemic. 0:10:46.0 NL: Yeah, yeah. 0:10:46.7 Louise: If I fail to lose weight in a lockdown, when the world was going mad... 0:10:51.6 NL: And I mean, actually, the story begins I think 10 years previously, the story begins when they were three and six. These were two children, a three-year-old and a six-year-old who were picked up most likely because... I don't know if it's the same in Australia, but in the UK we have a screening program, so in year one, which is between the age of five and six, you are weighed and measured by a school nurse, and they... 0:11:13.4 Louise: Really? 0:11:13.9 NL: Yeah. And do you not have that? No. 0:11:15.6 Louise: No. 0:11:15.7 NL: We have. This is the National Child Measurement Programme, there's a acronym, but I didn't bother to learn. 0:11:21.2 Louise: Oh my god. 0:11:21.6 NL: But it happens in year one, which is when you're between five and six, and again in year six, which is when you're between 10 and 11. 0:11:29.0 Louise: Oh Christ. 0:11:29.2 NL: Two of the worst times to weigh people... 0:11:30.0 Louise: Correct, yeah. 0:11:32.0 NL: If you're think about it, because of course, especially around the 10, 11 stage some people are heading towards puberty, pre-puberty, some people are not, and so those that are heading towards pre-puberty will often have gained quite a bit of weight because you know that always happens before you go through puberty, you kind of go out before you go up, and that's completely normal, but they get penalised. But anyway, so I imagine... I don't know, because that's not actually in the transcripts but I'm guessing that at six, the older sibling, the boy was shown to be grossly overweight or whatever they call it, morbidly obese. They probably just measured his BMI, even though he was six, they probably measured it, which is just ridiculous 'cause that's not what BMI is for, and rather than looking at growth charts, which is what we should be doing at that age, they will have just sent a letter home and the teachers would have got involved and somewhere along the line, social services would have been called just because of the weight, nothing else, just because of the weight, and social services... 0:12:25.8 Louise: Just because of the percentile of a BMI. 0:12:28.5 NL: That was all it was. It was just weight. There was literally no concerns of ever been raised about these kids apart from their weight. And at the age of three and six, social services got involved and started forcing these children to diet, and they will say that's not what they did, they tried to promote healthy eating, but when you take a three-year-old and a six-year-old and you tell them... You restrict what they eat, you force them to exercise, and you tell them there's something wrong with them, you are putting them on a diet at the age of three to six, and we know, for sure, with evidence, you know, I know, and everyone listening should know by now that when you put young children on a diet like that at such a young age and you make such a big deal out of their weight, they are going to develop disordered eating patterns, and they are going to... 0:13:06.8 Louise: Of course. 0:13:07.8 NL: Gain weight, so... 0:13:09.3 Louise: They're going to instead, that's a trauma process happening. 0:13:12.2 NL: That's true. Yeah, it's... 0:13:13.8 Louise: A trauma to get child protective services involved. 0:13:17.8 NL: Yeah, and live there for 10 years, and then... 0:13:21.4 Louise: Ten years? 0:13:22.5 NL: Got to the stage where they took the proceedings further and further, so that they kept getting more and more involved. And eventually, they decided to make this a child protection issue. Up until that point, child social services were involved, but then, about a year before the court proceedings, something like that, before the pandemic. What happened then was that they gave these children a set amount of time to lose weight, and they enforced it. They bought them Fitbits so that they could monitor how much exercise they were doing, they bought them gym subscriptions, they sent them to Weight Watchers. [chuckle] 0:13:55.9 Louise: Fantastic, 'cause we know that works. 0:13:58.4 NL: We know that works. And of course, as you said, it was during a lockdown. So, Corona hits and there was lockdown, there was schools were closed, and for us, it was really quite a difficult time. And in spite of all of that... 0:14:13.0 Louise: I can't believe it. 0:14:14.9 NL: When the children failed to lose weight, the judge decided that it was in their best interest to remove them from their loving parents. And dad, from what I can tell from the court transcripts. I don't know if you noticed this as well. I think mom was trying very hard to be as compliant as possible. 0:14:26.9 Louise: She was, and even she lost weight, the poor thing. 0:14:30.0 NL: Yes, but I think dad almost seems to be trying to protect them, saying, "This is ridiculous. You can't take my kids away just because of their weight," and I... 0:14:38.1 Louise: Seems like he was in denial, which I fully understand. 0:14:41.1 NL: I would be too, I would be outraged. And it sounds like this young girl... I don't know much about the boy, but from what I can see from the transcripts, this young girl really became quite sad and low and depressed, and obviously, shockingly enough, her self esteem has been completely ruined by this process. 0:14:58.7 Louise: I know, I know. I really saw that in the transcript. This poor little girl was so depressed and getting bullied. And in the transcript, the way that that is attributed to her size and not what abuse they're inflicting on this family. 0:15:13.3 NL: Right. Yeah, really quite shocking. And then of course, the other thing you probably noticed from the transcript is there is no expert testimony at this court proceeding. None whatsoever. There is no psychologist. 0:15:24.0 Louise: Actually, there was. 0:15:25.8 NL: There was... 0:15:26.6 Louise: Dr... What's her name? 0:15:29.4 NL: Yes. You're right, there was a psychologist, and you're absolutely right. She was not an eating disorder specialist or a... She was just a psychologist. 0:15:37.3 Louise: She's a clinical psychologist. Dr. Van Rooyen, and she's based in Kent, and she does court reports for child abuse. Yes, and I can see her weight stigma in there. She's on the one hand acknowledging that the kids don't wanna go, that the kids will suffer mentally from being removed, but you can also see her unexamined weight stigma. And that you're right, where the hell are the weight scientists saying, "Actually, it's biologically impossible to lose weight and maintain it"? Because in the transcripts, they do mention that the kids have lost weight, failed to keep it off. 0:16:16.5 NL: Exactly, exactly. And it's just shocking to me that there would be such a lack of understanding and no desire to actually establish the science or the facts behind this. If I was a judge... I'm not a judge, I'm not an expert, but if I was a judge and I was making a decision to remove a child from a home based purely on the child's inability to lose weight, I would want to find out if it was possible that this child simply couldn't lose weight on their own. I would want to consult experts. I would want to find out if there was a genetic condition. I'm not saying she has a genetic condition. You and I know that she doesn't need to have a genetic condition in order to struggle to lose weight, that actually, the psychology behind this explains it. But even if you've not got to that stage yet, there was no doctors, there was no dietitians, there was no... No one was consulted. It was a psychologist who had no understanding of these specific issues, who, as you said, was clearly biased. There was social workers who said, "We've done everything we can because we've given them a Fitbit and we've sent them to Weight Watchers and sent them to the gym, but they refuse to comply." 0:17:24.9 Louise: I know. It's shocking. 0:17:28.4 NL: Yeah, it strikes me that we live in a world where you just can get away with this. It's just universally accepted that being fat is bad, and it's also your fault, your responsibility. The blame lies solely on the individual, even if that individual is a three-year-old child, it is. And if it's not the child, then of course, it's the parent. The parent has done something wrong. 0:17:52.1 Louise: Specifically the mother, okay. 0:17:53.5 NL: The mother, yeah. 0:17:54.4 Louise: The one with the penis, okay, let's not talk about him, 'cause that was absent. It was the mom. And the only possibility that was examined in this is that it's mom's fault for not being compliant, like you said. That's the only thing. Nothing else like the whole method is a stink-fest of ineffective bullshit. 0:18:13.5 NL: And there's the one point in the transcript when they talk about the fact that she had ice cream or chips or something in the house. 0:18:19.7 Louise: That's Ms. Keeley, their social worker, who went in and judged them. And did you notice that she took different scales in during that last visit? That last visit that was gonna determine whether or not they'd be removed, she took different scales in and weighed them. And they say, "Look, we acknowledge that that could've screwed up the results, but we're just gonna push on with removal." 0:18:43.0 NL: It was their agenda. 0:18:45.0 Louise: It was. It's terrifying, and it's long-term foster care for this poor little girl who doesn't wanna leave her mom. I'm so fired up about this, because the impact of removing yourself from your home because of your body, how on earth is this poor kid gonna be okay? 0:19:05.7 NL: This is my worry. How is mom going to be okay? How is that boy going to be okay? And how is that young, impressionable girl... My oldest son is a little bit older, and my younger son is a little bit younger, she's literally in between the two, and I'm watching what the last two years or last year and a half has done to them in terms of their mental and emotional well-being. And to me, even without social services' involvement, my children's mental health has deteriorated massively. And I cannot even begin to comprehend what this poor girl is going through. I cannot imagine how traumatized she is, and I cannot see how is she ever going to get over this, because she's been going through it since she was three, and it's not at the hand of a parent, it's at the hand of a social worker, it is the social worker's negligence. And what's interesting is a lot of social workers and people who work in social services have reached out to me since I first talked about this case, and they have all said the same thing, the amount of weight stigma in social services in the UK is shocking. It is shocking. It is perfectly acceptable to call parents abusers just because their children are overweight. 0:20:21.8 Louise: Jesus. 0:20:22.2 NL: No other reason, just your child is over the limit, is on the 90th percentile or whatever it is, your child is overweight and therefore you as a mother, usually as you said, it's a mother, are an abusive mother, because you've brought your child up in a loving environment but they failed to look the way that you want them to look, that's it. 0:20:41.0 Louise: Okay. So, that's me, right. My eldest is in the 99th percentile, so I am an abuser, I'm a child abuser. 0:20:47.3 NL: Child abuser, I can't believe I'm probably talking to one. 0:20:49.3 Louise: I know. [laughter] 0:20:49.9 NL: I can't believe I'm probably talking to one. And you know, the irony, my son's been really poorly recently and he's been up in... I mean we've spent most of our life in the hospital the last few weeks, and... 0:20:58.1 Louise: Oh dear. 0:20:58.3 NL: Went to see a paediatrician and they did the height and weight, and he is on the 98th percentile, my son has a 28-inch waist. He is a skeleton at the moment because he's been really ill, but he is mixed race, and we all know that the BMI is not particularly... 0:21:12.9 Louise: It's racist. 0:21:13.2 NL: Useful anyway, but it's massively racist, so my children have always been, if you weigh them, a lot heavier than they look, because I mean he's... There isn't an ounce of fat on him. My point is that BMI is complete utter bullshit and it doesn't deserve to exist. The fact that we've been using up until now is shameful and as a doctor, I cannot accept that we use this as a measure of whether a person is healthy and certainly as a measure of whether a child is healthy, because until recently, we were told you don't do BMIs on anyone under the age of 16 but that's just gone out the window now, everyone... 0:21:48.5 Louise: I know. 0:21:48.6 NL: Gets a BMI, even a six-year-old. 0:21:50.1 Louise: You get a BMI, you get a BMI. [laughter] I think it's not supposed to be used for an individual anything, it's a population level statistic. 0:22:01.1 NL: And a pretty crappy one at that. 0:22:02.3 Louise: It's a shitty one. 0:22:02.6 NL: It is like you said. 0:22:04.2 Louise: Yes. 0:22:04.6 NL: It's based on what European men, it's not particularly useful for men, it's not particularly useful for any other race, it's just useful perhaps. Even when it came out, like even when... What's his face? I forget his name right now, Ancel Keys. When he did that study that first look, brought in the BMI into our medical world as it were, yeah, even he said at the time it was alright. It's not the best, it's not the worst, it will do. It's the best out of the bunch. I mean he didn't even have much enthusiasm at the time. He said specifically it's not meant to be used as an individual assessment. And even the guy who kind of didn't invent it, but he sort of invented it as a measure of "obesity" and yet... And even he didn't have much good stuff to say about it. If he was selling the latest iPhone, Apple would have a lot to say about that. [laughter] I just... This fact that we've become obsessed and we know why this is. We know this is because of the diet industry, we know this is because of people trying to make money out of us and succeeding, very successful at making money out of us. 0:23:02.9 Louise: It's actually terrifying how successful this is because when I read this transcript, I've been doing a lot of work against the Novo Nordisk impact and how our modern oh, narrative has been essentially created by the pharmaceutical company that's producing all of the weight loss drugs, they have 80% of the weight loss drugs market and they've shamelessly said in their marketing that this is their drive to increase... That it's to create a sense of urgency for the medical management of obesity. And here it is, this is where it bleeds, because they're telling us this bullshit that it's going to reduce stigma. No, it's going to create eugenics. This is hideous what's happening here and I can't believe that the world didn't stop and that the front page of newspapers aren't saying like get fucked, like get these kids back. There's no outrage. 0:24:04.2 NL: No, there is none whatsoever. We got just over 2,000 people supporting the petition and as grateful as I am for that, that's just what the fuck, that's 2,000 people who live in a country of 68 million and only 2,000 people had something to say about this and, we... That's how much we hate fat kids and how much we hate fat people. We just don't see them as worthy and nobody wants to defend this young girl, nobody sort of feels sorry for her and I just... I can't get my head around this whole thing. It's funny because I didn't really know about it, a year ago I was completely clueless. It's all happened rather quickly for me that I've begun to understand Haze and begun to understand who Novo Nordisk was and what they are doing and what Semaglutide actually is and how it's going to completely change the world as we know it. 0:24:56.5 NL: I think this particular drug is going to become part of popular culture in the same way that Viagra is, we use that word now in novels and in movies. It's so popular and so understood, nobody talks about... I don't know, give me a name of any drug, like some blood pressure medication, they don't talk about it in the same way they talk about Viagra. But Semaglutide is going to be that next drug because they have tapped into this incredibly large population of people who are desperate to lose weight and they've got this medication that was originally used to treat diabetes, just like Viagra was originally used to treat blood pressure and have said, "Wow, look at this amazing side effect. It makes people lose weight as long as you run it. Let's market this." And the FDA approved it. I mean, no... 0:25:45.1 Louise: I know. 0:25:45.8 NL: No thought as to whether or not this drug is gonna have a massive impact on people in their insulin resistance and whether they're gonna develop diabetes down the line. I don't think they care. I don't think anybody actually cares. I think it's just that everybody is happy, woo-hoo, another way to treat fat people and make a good deal of money out of it. 0:26:03.9 Louise: Right? So, Semaglutide is... It's the latest weight loss drug to be approved by the FDA from Novo Nordisk and it is like the Mark II. So, they were selling Saxenda, Saxenda's here in Australia, they're pushing it out and this Semaglutide is like the Mark II, like I think of Saxenda as like Jan Brady, and Semaglutide is like Marcia. [laughter] 0:26:29.3 Louise: 'Cause it's like, "Oh my God, look at Semaglutide. Look at this amazing one year trial." [laughter] Marcia, Marcia, Marcia, like oh my God, we can make so much weight loss happen from this intervention. Why? Why do we need all of this weight loss, all these percentages? And, "Oh, we can lose 15% and 20%," and we don't need to for health, but okay. 0:26:53.3 NL: Yeah. The other thing that we have to remember about it, I don't think it's actually that much better. I've used all of these drugs in treating diabetes. So many years, I used these drugs. The beauty of it, of course, is that it's a tablet, and Saxenda is an injection. I'm assuming you have the injectable form, yeah? 0:27:09.9 Louise: That's right. You have to inject, and it's very expensive. 0:27:14.0 NL: It's extremely expensive, as will... Marcia Brady will be more expensive, I'm sure. 0:27:18.6 Louise: So high maintenance. [chuckle] 0:27:20.2 NL: Absolutely, but she is easier to administer. A lot of people don't like the idea of injecting themselves, but taking a tablet is dead easy. So, that's what makes this special, as it were, because it's the only one of that whole family that is oral, as opposed to injectable. 0:27:37.6 Louise: Well, that's interesting, because the paper with all of the big, shiny weight loss was injectable, it wasn't tablet. 0:27:43.7 NL: Oh, really? Oh, but they're marketing it as the oral version, definitely. That's the one that's got approved. It's brand name is... 0:27:51.3 Louise: Wegovy. 0:27:52.2 NL: Oh no, well, I have a completely different brand name. Is it different, maybe, in Australia? 0:27:57.1 Louise: Well, this is in America. In Australia, they haven't cornered us yet. I'm sure that they're trying to do it, but it was the FDA approval for Wegovy, [0:28:05.4] ____. 0:28:05.9 NL: So, they obviously changed the name. That's not the same one we use in diabetes. Clearly, they've had to revamp it a bit. Irrespective of oral, injectable, whatever, I think that this is going to... Novo Nordisk is sitting on a gold mine, and they know it. And it's going to change our lives, I think, because bariatric surgery is quite a big thing, and it's something that often people will say, "I'm not keen on doing." And the uptake is quite low still, and so, in bariatric... 0:28:35.2 Louise: In the UK, not here. 0:28:36.2 NL: Yeah, [chuckle] yeah, but bariatric surgeons are probably very afraid right now, because there's drugs coming along and taking all of their business away from them. 0:28:43.5 Louise: Actually, you know what Novo were doing? They're partnering with the bariatric surgeons. 0:28:46.2 NL: Of course they are. 0:28:46.9 Louise: And they're saying to them, "Hey, let's use your power and kudos, and our drugs can help your patients when they start to regain." 0:28:56.4 NL: Oh my gosh. 0:28:58.0 Louise: It's literally gateway drug. Once you start using a drug to reduce your weight, you have medicalized your weight, and it's a small upsell from there. So, I think this is all part of a giant marketing genius that is Novo Nordisk. But I'm interested to hear your concerns, 'cause I'm concerned as well with the use of diabetes drugs as weight loss medications, and I read about it being that they're hoping that people will take this drug like we take statins. So, everyone will take it preventatively for the rest of their lives. What's the long-term impact, do you think, of taking a double dose of a diabetes drug when you don't have diabetes? 0:29:43.5 NL: Well, first of all, they don't know. Nobody knows, because they've only done a study for a year, and just how many diet drugs have we put out there into the universe since the 1970s, and then taken them back a few years later, 'cause we've gone, "Oh, this kills"? If you've got diabetes and you take this drug because you've got insulin resistance and this drug helps you to combat your insulin resistance in the way that it works, you've already got diabetes. And so, there is no risk of you developing diabetes, and this drug does work, and so, I have no issue with the GLP-1 analogs in their use in diabetes. I think all the diabetes drugs are important, and I'm not an expert. But you've really got to ask yourself, if you take a healthy body and you act on a system within the pancreas and within the body, in a healthy, essentially, healthy body, healthy pancreas, you've got to ask yourself if it's going to worsen insulin resistance over time. It's actually going to lead to increased cases of diabetes. Now, they say it won't, but... 0:30:47.4 Louise: How do they know that? 'Cause I've read a study by Novo, sponsored, in rats, that showed that it did lead to insulin resistance long-term. 0:30:57.6 NL: Right, I think common sense, because we understand that the way that the body works, just common sense. The way the body works suggests to me that over long periods of time, taking this medication in a healthy person is going to lead to increased insulin resistance, which in turn will lead to diabetes. That is what common sense dictates. But of course, as you said, we don't know. We don't have a study. Nobody has looked into this. And it makes me sad that we are using a drug to treat a condition that isn't a condition. 0:31:30.2 Louise: I know, yeah. [chuckle] 0:31:32.4 NL: And inadvertently, potentially giving people a whole... 0:31:36.0 Louise: Creating a condition. 0:31:36.6 NL: Creating an actual medical condition, which we all know to be life-threatening if untreated. And so, I cannot fathom why... Well, I can, I understand. It's for financial reasons only, but I can't understand why there are doctors out there that want to prescribe this. This is the issue that I have. I'm a doctor, and I can't speak on behalf of drug companies or politicians or anyone else, but I can speak to what doctors are supposed to be doing, and we have a very strong code of conduct that we have to abide by. We have ethical and moral principles and legal obligations to our patients. And so, doing no harm and doing what is in your patients' best interest, and practising fairly and without discrimination, and giving people... Allowing them to make an informed choice where they are aware of the risks and the side effects and all the different treatment options. 0:32:28.0 NL: When it comes to being fat, again, it seems to have gone out the window. None of these things are happening. We wouldn't dream of addressing other issues this way, it's just fatness, because it's just so commonly, widely accepted that fatness is bad and you've got to do whatever you can to get rid of it. I've had someone tell me today that they are pregnant with their first child and they had their first conversation with the anesthetist, who told them they had to do whatever they could to lose weight before they had their baby. This is a pregnant woman. 0:32:58.1 Louise: Whatever they had to do? 0:33:00.1 NL: Whatever they had to do, and she said, "What do you want me to do, buy drugs off the streets?" And the anesthetist said... Wait for it. The anesthetist said, "It would be safer for you to use a Class A drugs than it would for you to be fat in pregnancy". The anesthetist said that to this woman. She told me this and I just went "Please just... Can you just report him?" 0:33:21.7 Louise: Shut the front door, Jesus Christ! 0:33:24.6 NL: Can you imagine? First of all, that's not true. Second of all, he is saying that it is better to be a drug addict than to be a fat person. This is no judgment on drug addicts, but you do not encourage your patients to use Class A drugs to lose weight. That's stupid. Imagine if he'd said that about anything else, but in his... And it was a man, in his world, for whatever reason, his ethics just abandons them all in favor of fat shaming a woman. 0:33:52.4 Louise: This is where we're at with, it's self examined. It's like there's a massive black hole of stigma just operating unchallenged effortlessly and actually growing, thanks to this massive marketing department, Novo. It's terrify... That poor lady, I'm so glad she's found you and I hope she's not gonna go down the Class A drug route. [laughter] 0:34:19.3 NL: She's definitely not, but she was quite traumatized. She's on a Facebook group that I started and it's great because it's 500 people who are just so supportive of each other and it was within a few minutes 50 comments going "What a load of crap, I can't believe this," "You're great, this doctor is terrible". But it just stuck to me that one of my colleagues would dare, would have the audacity to do something as negligent as that. And I'm gonna call it what it is. That's negligence. But I'm seeing it all the time. I'm seeing it in healthcare, I'm seeing it in Social Services, I'm seeing it in schools, I'm seeing it in the workplace, I'm seeing it everywhere. You cannot escape it. And as a fat person, who was in the morbidly, super fat, super obese stage where she's just basically needs to just be put down like a... 0:35:16.3 Louise: Oh my gosh, it's awful. 0:35:18.5 NL: And as that person, I hear all of these things and I just think "I'm actually a fairly useful member of society, I've actually never been ill, never required any medication, managed to give birth to my children, actually to be fair, they had to come out my zip as opposed to through the tunnel." But that wasn't because I was fat, that was because they were awkward. But this anesthetist telling this woman that she's too fat to have a baby. I was just like "But I am the same weight. I am the same BMI as you". And I had three and I had no problems with my anesthetics. In fact after my third cesarean section, I walked out the hospital 24 hours later, happy as Larry, didn't have any problems. And I know people who were very, very thin that had a massive problems after their cesarean. So there's not even evidence to show how dangerous it is to have a BMI over 35 and still... And then caught when it comes to an anesthetic. This isn't even evidence-based, it's just superstition at this point. 0:36:12.8 Louise: It's a biased based and the guidelines here in Australia, so I think above 35 women are advised to have a cesarean because it's too dangerous. And women are not allowed to give birth in rural hospitals, they have to fly to major cities. So imagine all of... And don't even get me started on bias in medical care for women. It's everywhere, like you said, and it's unexamined and all of this discrimination in the name of, apparently, healthcare. It's scary. 0:36:43.9 NL: It really is. Gosh, you've got me fired up, it's almost 1:00 in the morning and I'm fired up. I'm never gonna get to sleep now. [laughter] 0:36:51.7 Louise: Okay, I don't wanna tell you this, but I will. 'Cause we're talking about how on earth is this possible, like why aren't there any medical experts involved to talk about this from a scientific basis, and I'm worried that even if they did have medical people in the court, they wouldn't have actually stuck up for the kid. I found this JAMA article from 2011. It's a commentary on whether or not large kids should be removed from their families, and it was supportive of that. 0:37:18.0 NL: Oh gosh. Of course it was. 0:37:22.0 Louise: And in response to that commentary, the medpage, which is a medical website, a newsletter kind of thing. They did a poll of health professionals asking should larger kids removed from their families, and 54% said yes. 0:37:40.7 NL: Of course. 0:37:41.3 Louise: I know. Isn't that dreadful? One comment on that said "It seems to me the children in a home where they have become morbidly obese might be suffering many other kinds of abuse as well, viewing in the size of a child. 'Cause we've all gotten bigger since the '80s. We're a larger population and viewing that as abuse and as a fault of parenting. Unbelievable. I also had a little dig around Australia, 'cause it's not isolated in the UK, there's so many more cases. 0:38:16.9 NL: They have. Yeah. 0:38:17.8 Louise: And I think actually in the UK, it might be a lot more common than in Australia. 0:38:22.1 NL: Yeah, I can believe that. 0:38:23.5 Louise: But it did happen here in 2012, there was some report of two children being removed from their families because of the size of the kids. And the media coverage was actually quite dreadful. I'll put in the show notes, this article, and the title is "Victorian authorities remove obese children, removed from their parents". So even the title is wrong, couldn't even get their semantics right. There's a picture, you can imagine what picture would accompany... 0:38:55.2 NL: Well of course it can't be of the actual children, because I think it leads to lawsuit. I'm assuming it's a belly. Is there a belly? Is there a fat person in it or a fat child eating a burger? 0:39:06.2 Louise: Yes. [laughter] 0:39:07.1 NL: Sorry, it's either the belly or the fat person eating the burger. So, a fat child eating the burger, sorry. 0:39:11.9 Louise: Helpfully, to help the visually impaired, the picture had caption and the caption reads "Overweight brother and sister sitting side by side on a sofa eating takeaway food and watching the TV." So not at all stereotyped, very sensitive, nuanced article this one. And then we hear from Professor John Dixon, who is a big part of obesity Inc here in Australia. He told the ABC that "Sometimes taking children away from their parents is the best option." In the same article, he also admits "There's no services available that can actually help kids lose weight", and he says that it's not the parents fault. Helpfully, this article also states that "Obesity is the leading cause of illness and death in Australia." [laughter] 0:39:58.7 NL: I love it when I hear that. How have they figured that out? What do they do to decide that? Where does this... 0:40:08.4 Louise: They don't have to provide any actual evidence. 0:40:10.5 NL: Right. They just say it. 0:40:12.1 Louise: Got it. 0:40:13.0 NL: Just say it. 0:40:14.4 Louise: Diet. And I checked just to make sure, 'cause in case I've missed anything. 0:40:18.4 NL: Yeah. 0:40:19.6 Louise: The top five causes of death in Australia in 2019; heart disease, number two dementia, number three stroke, number four malignant neoplasm of trachea bronchus and lung. 0:40:30.4 NL: Lung cancer. 0:40:30.9 Louise: Lung cancer. 0:40:31.5 NL: That's lung cancer. 0:40:32.3 Louise: And number five chronic lower respiratory disease. 0:40:38.4 NL: So translation. Heart attacks, dementia... In the UK it's actually dementia first, then heart attacks. So dementia, heart attacks, stroke, same thing in the UK, and then lung cancer and COPD. Both of those are smoking-related illnesses. And I can say quite safely that they are smoking-related illness because the chance of developing lung cancer or COPD if you haven't smoked is minuscule. So what the people are doing is they're saying, "Well, we can attribute all of these heart attacks and strokes and dementia to "obesity". And the way we can do that is we just look at all these people that have died, and if they are fat we'll just assume it's their fat that caused their heart disease. 0:41:20.0 NL: To make it very clear to everybody that is listening, if you have a BMI of 40, we can calculate your risk of developing a heart attack or a stroke over the next 10 years using a very sophisticated calculator actually, it's been around for some time. It's what we use in the UK. I'm assuming Australia has a similar one, don't know what it's called there. In the UK it's called a QRISK. So I've done this. I have calculated. I have found a woman, I called her Jane. I gave her a set of blood pressure and cholesterol, and I filled in a template. And then I gave her a BMI of 20. And then I gave her a BMI of 40. And I calculated the difference in her risk. I calculated the difference in her risk, and the difference in her risk was exactly 3%. The difference in her risk if she was a smoker was 50%. She was 50% more likely to have a heart attack if she was a smoker, but only 3% more likely to have a heart attack if she had a BMI of 40 instead of a BMI of 25. 0:42:15.0 NL: To put it into perspective, she was significantly more likely to have a heart attack if she was a migraine sufferer, if she had a mental health condition, if she had lupus or rheumatoid arthritis, if she was Asian, if she was a man, and all of those things dramatically increased her risk more than having a BMI of 40. So it's just very important that doctors will admit, 'cause it's about admitting to a simple fact, this calculator we use to predict people's risks. So if we know that weight only has a 3-4% impact on our cardiovascular risk as opposed to smoking which has a 50% impact, as opposed to aging which is why most people die because they get old and let's face it everybody dies some time. 0:43:04.0 NL: So what's happening is the... Whoever they are, are taking all these deaths from heart disease which was likely caused by the person aging, by the person being male or just being old and being over the age of 75, your risk of heart disease goes up massively irrespective of your weight. So instead of saying, "Well, it's just heart disease", they've gone, "Well, it's heart disease in a fat person and therefore it was the fatness that caused the heart disease." And that is offensive to me to the point that now, I have heard... And this is awful in this year, our patients that are dying of COVID, if they die of COVID in the UK, it's actually quite heart breaking, it's happened to someone that I was close to. If they die of COVID in the UK, and they happen to be fat, the doctor writes "obesity" on their death certificate... 0:43:51.8 Louise: No way. 0:43:52.4 NL: As a cause of death. They died of COVID. 0:43:55.2 Louise: What? 0:43:55.5 NL: They died of COVID. That's what they died of. They died of this terrible virus that is killing people in their droves but people are under the misguided impression that being fat predisposes you to death from COVID, which is not true. It's not true. That is a complete gross misrepresentation of the facts. But we've now got doctors placing that on a person's death certificate. Can you imagine how that family feels? Can you imagine what it feels like to get this death certificate saying, "Your family member is dead from COVID but it's their fault 'cause they were obese." And how can the doctor know? How could the doctor know that? 0:44:34.2 Louise: How can they do that? 0:44:35.6 NL: How can they do that? And this is my point, this doctor that's turning around and saying it's safer for children to be removed from their loving home. Obviously, this person has no idea of the psychological consequences of being removed from your family. But it's safer for that person to be removed from their home than to remain in their home and remain fat. What will you achieve? Is this person going to lose weight? No. I can tell you what this person is going to do. This person is going to develop... 0:44:58.9 Louise: They even say that. They even say that in the transcripts. We don't think that they'll get any more supervision. 0:45:03.1 NL: Yeah. In fact, we're gonna get less supervision because it's not a loving parent. You're going to develop, most likely an eating disorder. You're going to develop serious psychological scars. That trauma is going to lead to mental health problems down the line. And chances are you're just gonna get bigger. You're not gonna get smaller because we know that 95% of people who lose weight gain it all back again. We know that two-thirds of them end up heavier. We know that the more you diet, the heavier you're gonna get. And that actually, this has been shown to be like a dose-response thing in some studies. So the more diets you go on, the higher your weight is going to get. If you don't diet ever in your life, chances are you're not gonna have as many weight problems later on down the line. So, as you're saying, we are living in a society that's got fatter. And there's lots of reasons for that. It's got to do with the food that we're eating now. That we're all eating. That we're all consuming. 0:45:55.1 Louise: Food supply. Only some of us will express from there the epigenetic glory of becoming higher weight. 0:46:02.0 NL: Right. And that's the thing, isn't it? Genetics, hormones, trauma, medications. How many people do I know that are on psychiatric medications and have gained weight as a result, Clozapine or... It's just what's gonna happen. You name it. Being female, having babies, so many things will determine your weight. 0:46:21.0 Louise: Getting older. We're allowed to get... We're supposed to get bigger as we get older. 0:46:25.1 NL: And then you know that actually, there are so many studies nowadays, so many studies that we've labeled it now that show that actually being fat can be beneficial to you. There's studies that show that if you end up in ICU with sepsis, you're far more likely to survive if you're fat. If you've got a BMI over 30, you're more likely to survive. There's studies that show that if you have chronic kidney disease and you're on dialysis, the chances of you surviving more long-term are significantly higher if you're fat. Heart failure, kidney disease, ICU admissions, in fact, even after a heart attack, there's evidence to show that you're more likely to survive if you're fat. And they call this the obesity paradox. We have to call it a paradox because we cannot, for one moment, admit that actually there's a possibility that being fat isn't all that bad for you in the first place and we got it wrong. Rather than admit that we got it wrong, we've labeled a paradox because we have to be right here, we have to... 0:47:18.0 Louise: Yeah, it's like how totally bad and wrong, except in certain rare, weird conditions, as opposed to, "Let's just drop the judgment and look at all of this much less hysterically." 0:47:29.5 NL: Yeah. And studies have shown that putting children on a diet, talking about weight, weight-shaming them, weighing them, any of these things, have been linked to and have been demonstrated to cause disordered eating and be a serious risk for direct factor for weight gain. And that, in my opinion, is the important thing to remember in this particular case, because as I said, social services start in weight-shaming, judging, and talking about weight when these children were three and six, and they did that for 10 years. And in doing so, they are responsible for the fact that these children went on to gain weight, because that's what the evidence shows. And there's no question about this evidence, there's multiple papers to back it up. 0:48:14.1 NL: There's an article published in Germany in 2016, there was an article published last year by the University of Cambridge, and even the American Academy of Pediatrics agrees that talking about weight, putting children on a diet, in fact, even a parent going on a diet is enough to damage that child and increase their risk of developing disordered eating patterns and weight gain. 0:48:37.9 NL: And so, as far as I'm concerned, that to me, is evidence enough to say that it's actually social services that should be in front of a judge, not these children, but it's the social workers that should be held to account. And I have written... And this is something that is very important to say. I wrote to the council, the local authority, and I've written a very long letter, I've published it on my website. You can read it anytime, anyone can read it. And I wrote to them and I said, "This is the evidence. Here are all the links. As far as I'm concerned, you guys got it terribly wrong and you have demonstrated that there is a high degree of weight bias that is actually causing damage to children. I am prepared to come and train you for free and teach all of your social workers all about weight bias, weight stigma, and to basically dispel the myths that obviously are pervading your social work department." And they ignored me. I wrote to politicians in the area. They ignored me. I wrote to a counselor who's a member of my political party, who just claimed, "Yeah, I'll look into it for you." Never heard from her again. Yeah, nobody cares. 0:49:44.0 Louise: It's just such a lack of concern. 0:49:45.7 NL: I didn't even do it in a critical way. I had to do it in a kind of, "I will help you. Let me help you. I'm offering my services for free. I do charge, normally, but I'll do it for free for you guys." No one is interested. Nobody wants to know. And that makes me really sad, that they weren't even willing to hear me out. 0:50:03.0 Louise: I can't believe they didn't actually even answer you. 0:50:06.5 NL: Didn't answer me, didn't respond to any of my messages, none of the counselors, none of the... Nobody has responded, and I've tried repeatedly. 0:50:14.4 Louise: So, this is in West Sussex, yeah? 0:50:16.7 NL: That's right, West Sussex, that's right. 0:50:18.0 Louise: You know what's weird about that? I've actually attended a wedding at that council, that my ex-father-in-law got married there. And when I saw the picture there, I'm like, "Oh my God, I've actually been there." So, I had a poke, and I don't know if you know this, but hopefully, in the future, when those children, C and D, finally decide to sue the council, that they can use this as evidence. There is a report from a... It's called a commissioner's progress report on children services in West Sussex from October 2020, which details how awful the service has been for the past few years, and huge issues with how they're running things. And it says, "Quite fragile and unstable services in West Sussex." So, this family who've had their kids removed were being cared for by a service with massive problems, are being referred to programs that don't work, and that there's a massive miscarriage of justice. 0:51:17.3 NL: And I'm glad you're talking about it, and I'm glad we're talking about it. And I wish that we had the platform to talk about it more vocally. I'd want to be able to reach out to these... To see patients... They're not patients, child C and D. I want to be able to reach out to mum as well, and say... 0:51:36.3 Louise: I just wanna land in Sussex and just walk around the street saying, "Where are you? I wanna help." 0:51:40.2 NL: "Where are you? And let me hug you." And I'm very interest to know, I'd be very interested to know the ethnic origin of these young people. 0:51:48.9 Louise: And the socio-economic status of these people. 0:51:50.2 NL: Socio-economic status, 100%. I would very much like to know that. That would make a huge... I think that I can guess, I'm not going to speculate, but I had a very lovely young woman contact me from a... She was now an adult, but she had experienced this as a child. She had been removed from her home and was now an adult, and she had been in foster care, in social services, for a few years, and had obviously contact with her mum but hadn't been reunited with her mum ever. So it wasn't like it was for a time and then she went back. And we talked about this. She was in a London borough, I shall not name the borough, but I know for a fact that her race would've played a role in this, because she was half-Black, half-Turkish. 0:52:39.2 NL: And there're a few things in that court transcript that caught my attention. I don't know if you noticed there was a mention of the smell from the kitchen, and they didn't specifically said, you know, mould, or you know that there was mould in the kitchen, or there was something in the kitchen that was rotting, something like that, 'cause I think they would have specified. It was just a smell. And that made me wonder, is this to do with just the fact that maybe this family lived in poor housing or was it the type of food that they were cooking for their children? Is there a language issue, is there a cultural issue. What exactly is going on? 'cause we don't know that from the court transcript, so that's another thing that... Another piece of the puzzle that I would really be interested in. Is this a white wealthy family? Probably not. I don't think they are. 0:53:27.2 Louise: Yeah it didn't struck me that way either. Yeah, yeah this is potentially marginalization and racism happening that... 0:53:35.1 NL: Yeah. 0:53:35.9 Louise: And here in Australia, we've got an awful history of how we treated First Nations people and we removed indigenous kids from their families, on the basis of like we know better, and I just... Yeah honestly, elements of that here, like we know better. 0:53:51.5 NL: Yes. Right, this is it. We know better than you have to parent your child. I am have always been a big believer of not restricting my children's feed in any way. I was restricted, and I made the decision when we had the kids that there would just be no restriction at all. I have like been one of those parents that had just been like, that's the draw with all the sweet treats in it. They're not called treats, they're just sweets and chocolate and candy, there it is. It's within reachable distance. Help yourself whenever you want, ice pops in the freezer, there's no like you have to eat that to get your pudding. None of that. 0:54:27.6 NL: My kids have just been able to eat whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted, I never restricted anything, I wanted them to be intuitive eaters. And of course they are, and what amazes me is now my teenage son, when we were on lockdown, and he was like homeschooled, he would come downstairs, make himself a breakfast, and there was like three portions of fruit and veg on his plate, and not because someone told him that he had to, but just because he knew it was good for him and he knew it was healthy, there was like a selection, his plate was always multi-colored, he was drinking plenty of water. He would go and cook it, he cooked himself lunch, he knew that he can eat sweets and crisps and chocolate whenever he wanted to, and he didn't, he just didn't. Like it was there, that drawn, it gets emptied out because it's become a bit... But no, they don't take it, and sometimes they do, 'cause they fancy it, but most of the times they don't. And that is my decision as a parent, I believe that I have done what is in their best interest, I believe that I will prove over time that this has had a much better impact on their health, not restricting them. 0:55:26.4 Louise: Absolutely, Yeah. 0:55:27.6 NL: But the point is they're my children, and it was my damn choice, and even if my child is on the 98th percentile, it's still my damn choice, nobody gets to tell me how to parent my child. That is my child, I know what's best for them. And I believe that my children are going to prove the fact that this is a great way of parenting, and I know that actually most of their friends who had, were not allowed to eat the food that they wanted to eat used to come over to our house and just kind of like wide eyed. And they binge, they binge, you know, to the point that I have to restrict them and say I actually I don't think mom would like that if I gave that to you. 0:56:00.0 Louise: We know that that's what we do when we put kids in food deserts, we breed binge eating and food insecurity, and trying to teach our kids to have a relaxed and enjoyable relationship with food is what intuitive eating is all about. And without a side salad of fat phobia, we're not doing this relationship with food stuff in order to make sure you're thin, we're doing this to make sure that you feel really safe and secure in the world, and you know health is sometimes controllable and sometimes not, and this kind of mad obsession we have with controlling our food and the ability it will give us like everlasting life is weird. 0:56:39.0 NL: Yeah. 0:56:39.7 Louise: Yeah. Gosh, I'm so glad you're parenting those kids in that way and I've noticed the same thing with my kids. Like my kids, we are a family of intuitive eaters and it's just really relaxed, and there's variety, and they go through these little love affairs with foods, and it's really cute. [chuckle] And they're developing their palettes, and their size is not up to me. 0:57:05.8 NL: Yeah. 0:57:06.4 Louise: Yeah. 0:57:07.4 NL: Right. 0:57:08.1 Louise: It's up to me to help them thrive. 0:57:10.7 NL: That's right. And when people talk about health, I often hear people talking about health, and whenever they ask me that question, you know, surely you can agree that being fat is not good for your health, well, I'll always kinda go, "Oh Really? Could you just do me a favor here and define health?" Because I spend my whole life trying to define health, and I'm not sure that I've got there yet, but I can tell you without a doubt that this for me, in my personal experience as a doctor... And I've been a doctor for a long time now, and I see patients all the time, and I'm telling you that in my experience, the most important thing for your health is your mental and emotional well-being, that if you are not mentally and emotionally well, it doesn't matter how good your cholesterol is, it doesn't matter whether or not you've got diabetes, that is irrelevant, because if you're not mental and emotional... I'm not saying that 'cause you won't enjoy life, I mean, it has an impact on your physical health. And I spend most of my day dealing with either people who are depressed or anxious, and that's what they've presented with, or they've presented with symptoms that are being made worse or exacerbated by their mental and emotional pull, mental and emotional well-being. 0:58:19.1 NL: So giving my children the best start in life has always been about giving them a good mental and emotional well, start. It's about giving... It's not just teaching them resilience, but teaching them to love themselves, to be happy with who they are, to not feel judged or to not feel that they are anything other than the brilliant human beings that they are. And I believe that that is what's going to stand them in the greatest... In the greatest... I've lost my words now, but that's what's gonna get them through life, and that's why they're going to be healthy. And how much sugar they eat actually is quite irrelevant compared to the fact that they love themselves and their bodies, and they are great self-esteem, we all know that happiness is... Happiness is the most important thing when it comes to quality of life and happiness is the most important thing when it comes to length of life and illness, all of it. Happiness trumps everything else. 0:59:07.0 Louise: And to you know what that comes from. Happiness comes from a sense of belonging, belonging in our bodies, belonging in ourselves, belonging in the community, and all of this othering that's happening with the message that everyone belongs unless they're fat. That sucks ass and that needs to stop. This poor little kid when, in the transcript it mentioned that they found a suicide note... 0:59:29.9 NL: Yes. 0:59:30.1 Louise: And some pills. And she's fucking like 13. 0:59:34.8 NL: Yeah, and they called it a cry for help. 0:59:36.0 Louise: They called it cry for help 'cause of her body. 0:59:38.1 NL: Yeah. 0:59:38.4 Louise: They didn't recognize it since they've been sniffing around threatening to take her off her mom, and because she's being bullied for her size at school. This is like a calamitous failure to see the impact of weight stigma. 0:59:52.9 NL: She's been told that it's her fault that she's been taken away from her mum. They had told her that because she didn't succeed in losing weight, that she doesn't get to live with her mother anymore. Can you imagine? 1:00:02.4 Louise: So her mom. I can't even wrap my head around that. I can't. 1:00:07.2 NL: Well, she feels suicidal, I think I would too. I felt suicidal at her age and for a lot less. It's terrible, it's terrible. And I hope she's hanging on and I hope that... 1:00:14.6 Louise: I wanna tell her that she is awesome. 1:00:17.4 NL: Yes. 1:00:17.9 Louise: If she ever gets to listen to this. But I know the impact. So like when I was 11, my mom left and I remember how much it tore out my heart. 1:00:26.4 NL: Yeah. 1:00:26.9 Louise: You're 11... 1:00:27.5 NL: Yeah. 1:00:28.3 Louise: 12, 13. This is not the time to do this to kids, and this whole idea... The judge said something like, "Oh, you know, gosh, this is gonna be bad... " But here it is, I will read it to you. This is... She actually wrote a letter to the kids. 1:00:42.5 NL: Oh, gosh. 1:00:43.7 Louise: "I know you will feel that in making this o

The full conversation with Ricardo Hausmann - now with Transcript. This is a subscriber-only post.TranscriptOpening musicYou are listening to ideas Untrapped with Tobi Lawson. Tobi Lawson (intro) Welcome to another episode of ideas Untrapped and my guest today is Ricardo Hausmann, who is a professor of economic development at Harvard University, he is a former director of centre for International Development, and is currently the Director of the center's growth lab. Ricardo pioneered an approach of looking at economic development called economic complexity. My brief synopsis of the central idea is that an economy only grows and develop by learning to do many things by expanding its productive capabilities. I start by asking Ricardo, what we can learn, particularly from the East Asian experience, and what has happened in economic development over the last few decades. Thank you for always listening to the show and I hope you enjoy this one. Tobi Lawson You've been one of the most important thinkers in economic development throughout my adult life. So, it's a pleasure to speak to you. Ricardo Hausmann Pleasure to be with you. Tobi LawsonFrom Around 1990, when the results of the economic trajectory of East Asia became apparent, so many policy propositions have been developed by scholars. But, in your opinion, what do you think has been the most important lesson from that East Asian growth episode? Ricardo Hausmann I think the general experience of development is really, that development is about the growth of productive capabilities In a society, it's what our society is capable of doing and, what a society is capable of doing depends a little bit on, what are the tools and machines it has available to do things nd what are the recipes and formulas and routines and protocols it's aware of, but it's mostly about what is the know-how that it's people have and this idea of know-how is not just, you know, low and high. It's mostly How different is what each member of society knows. Because if everybody knows a lot of the same thing, the whole doesn't know much more than each individual. But if each individual knows different than the whole can know a lot, even if each individual doesn't know that much. So this division of know how in society allows for individuals to specialise and society to diversify, that a society is able to do more, because it's individuals are all different. I am originally from Venezuela, and we're Nigeria. And we all think that we are rich because we have¹ oil. And then something bad happened to explain why, given that we're rich, we're not so rich, but we're rich, because we have our, our society is rich, not because of what it has. But because of what it knows how to do. And the growth and development of a society is the growth and development of what it knows how to do well. That's the core of things. And so if you ask about East Asia, well, they started in agriculture, they move to garments, then they move to textiles, then they move to electronics, then they move to cars, and move to chemicals and shapes, and so on. So, if you look at what they have been good at, that is something that has been very rapidly changing. They become good at more things. And they can become sufficiently good at those things that they can sell them outside of the country. And if you look at their export baskets, they have been evolving dramatically. In the directions I just mentioned, if you look at the export basket of Nigeria, or the export basket or Venezuela, the only thing you'll find there is oil. But when you look at the amount of oil we're talking about, it's really peanuts. It's really, so it's not that we have a lot of oil, it's that it's the only game in town. You know, Nigeria is a society of about 200 million people, cruises about 2 million barrels of oil a day. That's like a 100th of a barrel of oil per capita. That's 100th of a $60. That's 60 cents. That's not much money that's coming out of here, right? So it's not that you have a lot of oil, it's that it's the only game in town. And that's a reflection of how little The company has got more things with the possible exception of Nollywood. Tobi Lawson You've finished Nigeria, I wouldn't just say Nollywood, sectors like telecommunications have been booming in the last 20 years. But looking broadly.... Ricardo Hausmann Wait, one second, one second, one second, that has allowed Nigerians to call each other. But that opens an enormous opportunity now, because one of the things that COVID has taught us is that many things that we used to do in the office, we can do from home. But anything that can be done from home, can be done from abroad. So there are many, many tasks that are currently done in rich countries. But that could be done by zoom in poor countries, in less developed countries. And that opens up new avenues for diversification, it will open up, you know, the possibility to participate in value chains that were unthinkable before, because people thought that, you know, the people doing those tasks had to live there. Now, we know that they don't have to live there. So you know, one message for all the youth in Nigeria, is that there's plenty of work in platforms like Upwork, and other such platforms where you can find jobs to do on the web. And that's thanks to the fact that you have you know, ICT information communication technology that has diffuse, but so far, that  diffusion has not changed what Nigeria is able to sell abroad. And that's, I think, where we have to aim, I mean, forms of livelihood, for Nigerians in Nigeria, by selling to people in the rest of the world Tobi Lawson Looking at your economic complexity approach to development, from your writings, and the writings of other scholars in that school, a society that knows how to do many things will grow rich, but how do we square that with the works of people like Robert Wade, who stressed the importance of manufacturing and industrialization in achieving growth and development? How should policymakers think about the knowledge we are getting from the sub discipline of economic developmentRicardo Hausmann Manufacturing was a very, very important stepping stone, for many of the societies that became rich, it was a very important stepping stone, because manufacturing require relatively low skilled labour. So it was easy to take people out of agriculture, with little education, put them in manufacturing, and manufacturing was, you know, generating much higher levels of productivity in agriculture at the time, and the levels of productivity manufacturing worldwide. So, for East Asia, this movement of people from agriculture to manufacturing was a very important stepping stone in the process of development. Some people think that manufacturing has become less unskilled labour intensive, it has become more skill intensive and more capital intensive. So it doesn't necessarily generate as many jobs as before and there aren't that many sort of like entry level jobs as as before. But I think they're still there. They're still there. So I think that, you know, a prosperous Nigeria would have much more manufacturing than it has today and creating the ecosystem for that manufacturing to happen is very important. And for that, I think that creating the ecosystem means what? It means that needs spaces where people can locate their factories, say, so that workers can go in and out efficiently and not spend two hours going there and two hours back home, that the materials can get in and out that you're relatively close to an efficient port, where you can bring materials from the rest of the world or send materials to the rest of the world, that you can participate in global value chain so that you give up on this idea that everything that you want to manufacture has to be manufactured with locally available raw materials, which is one of the most destructive ideas that is very popular in Africa that you want to, as you say, what's the term that you use there "beneficiate" your raw materials locally, and that that's like the angle of development. We can elaborate but that's a very, very dangerous and counterproductive idea. So you will need you know, a place that has electricity, water, security. So creating those spaces where manufacturing can thrive definitely is a path going forward and I would I would put the less attention to some of the things that goes by the older industrial policy name, and more attention to just making sure that you create spaces where a Nigerian manufacturer can be very, very productive. Tobi Lawson Let's talk a bit about the political economy of this. What exactly is the role of the state because what mostly obtains in countries like Nigeria, and the rest is heavy state involvement in trying to industrialise and doing industrial policy, allocate resources and credit and, there isn't more emphasis on the role of the private sector and even in the market. So how important is the state in this process, and what exactly is the role of the state in nurturing a growing economy? Ricardo Hausmann So, I think that the role of the state is huge. But it has to be smart, it has to be complimentary, it has to enhance the possibilities of the rest of society and not substitute the possibilities of the rest of society. So let me give you an example. Every technology you can imagine, is a combination of some things that you can buy in the market, and some things that cannot be purchased in the market that either they are provided by the state, or they're not provided. So you know, there is a market for cars, and you can go out and buy a car and different kinds of cars. There's no market for roads, or for traffic lights, or for driving rules, or for traffic police. So a car is a private good, it exists in a universe full of public goods. If the state does not provide the roads, the cars are not very useful, right? That's what I mean by the state complementing the rest of society. So society can organise some things and not others. So it's very important that the state be very good at providing the things that cannot be provided by markets. And those are quite a few. So for example, electricity penetration in Nigeria is still very low and remains a very, very significant obstacle to progress in spite of massive investments in that area. So electricity, you know, an efficient port system and efficient road system, and efficient urban transportation system, public education, you know no public health, there are so many so many tasks. Now in learning, things that can be done by markets, there's also a lot that can be done, let me tell you a little bit of a secret of the US success. If you look at Silicon Valley, for example, well, let's look first at the US as a whole, the US as a whole 14% of the population of the US is foreign born. But, if you look at the entrepreneurs in the US, 29% are foreign born. So the foreign born represent you know double the share of the entrepreneurs, than they represent the share of the population. If you look in Silicon Valley, and everybody's trying to imitate Silicon Valley, 54% of the science, technology, engineering and math workers of Silicon Valley, the stem workers 54% are foreign born, and the other 46% were not born in California, even though California is a state that has 40 million people. So the secret of Silicon Valley, is not that they have fantastic school systems and fantastic universities, and so on and so forth. It is really that they're able to attract global talent and one of the things that Africa has done in general, is that it has closed itself to the attraction of foreign talent. In many countries, it's very hard to get a visa to become a permanent resident or work permit. There is no path to citizenship. There are restrictions in how many foreigners a firm can hire, etc, etc. So, you know, in Africa, many countries cannot stop their citizens from going and working abroad. But the countries are very effective in preventing foreigners to come in, except at the very low end. So, one of the things that you want to think about in order to industrialise and to get into other things is to be able to attract talent, global talent that is capable of enhancing the capabilities you have. There's no shame in doing that. That's how it's being done in the in the rich countries. You know, everybody wants to become Singapore. But they don't know that Singapore is 45% foreign born. Singapore is what it is because it's able to attract global talent. So, you know, a lot of the improvements in the South African financial system is because they were able to attract all the Zimbabweans that were leaving Mugabe and get jobs, you know, all the educated Zimbabweans moved to South Africa. And that was very good for South Africa. So there's a lot in terms of attracting new know-how that can be done by trying to attract foreign talent. Another thing that you can do is to leverage your diaspora. Most African countries have a very significant diaspora. Much of that diaspora is in richer countries more developed countries and that diaspora is being exposed to new ways of doing business, to new industries, to new ideas, they can become a very, very important source of diversification of progress that has been documented by analysts at cellion, for the case of Taiwan, for the case of India, for the case of Israel, for many instances in which diasporas were very important in transforming the opportunities of the country. So, you want to leverage all of these things that can allow society to become more productive, more capable, more able to do more things. And no, the role of the government is in some sense not to prevent that from happening, to complement that with all the things that cannot be organised through markets, through private firms, and then, you know, maybe here and there, there's an additional space for, you know, focusing things, you know, just if there were good industrial zones, well connected by infrastructure ports, were supplied by electricity and water, well connected to places where workers live through an urban transport system, and so on. I'm sure that a lot of people would look into doing manufacturing in Nigeria. Tobi LawsonI want to get more from your answer by extending that question to state capacity. So many scholars have argued that state capacity is even the secret sauce, so to speak, of the success of East Asia, including China, and you get the impression that a state has to have fully formed capacity to deliver on so many things before it can then nurture growth and development. But you have argued in one of your lectures that I just saw that there is a coevolution, that happens between the state and the economy in terms of capabilities. So how does this co evolution work in practice, as opposed to the standard view of a fully formed capable state? Ricardo Hausmann Some people would like to say, Well, you know, first you have to have a capable state, and then you can have development. But until you get a capable state, you cannot get development. So focus on getting a capable state. But then you ask yourself the question, and how is that capable state going to rise? What's going to find that capable state if it's not a society that is able to pay the taxes and so on to feed that capable state. So So in fact, what you ended up having is a society that needs to develop in order to feed a more capable state, and a more capable state that is able to help society continuous development process. So at every point in time, you have states of very different capacities. And as a consequence, societies have a certain level of capacity consistent with that capacity of the state. So what you end up having is, the more society develops, the more resources can be put available to the state for it to do its thing. And the more the state does its thing, the more the society can develop. So these things are growing at the same time, or they're growing together. But a very important important question that you have to ask yourself, when you're thinking about the state, you're thinking about the Nigerian state. Now, what does it mean to be Nigerian? Who is Nigerian? Who is included in being Nigerian? When the state acts on behalf of Nigerians? It acts on behalf of whom? Is that on behalf of the Hausa? Does it act on behalf of the Yoruba? Does it act on behalf of the ibo? What does it mean to be Ibo and Nigerian or Hausa and Nigeria? How many things do you want to be decided in Abuja? And how many things we want to have decided at the different states, state government? So you have a relatively federal structure in Nigeria? Is that because you think that people have stronger regional identities than they have for a national identity? When you talk about Japan, or you talk about Korea, you're talking about societies that are internally very homogeneous. A Japanese person is somebody who speaks Japanese. A Korean person is somebody who speaks Korean. How many languages are spoken in Nigeria? Tobi Lawson (interjects) About 500… Ricardo Hausmann So obviously, it's not having a state is somebody's state, whose state is it? So I think one of the things that is a challenge is the construction of a Nigerian identity that can support the state. Right? Because the state is underpinned by a certain sense of us. The state is our state, it is done for us. It is how we do things collectively and it's Very important to clarify what do we mean by that we, who is inside the way, who's not inside the we, who is us, who's not us and those things are what makes often no state development difficult. Because, you know, if some people think that the state is going to be favouring some other group, then you would rather have a weak state than a state controlled by somebody who's not you and those things makes statecraft harder. Tobi LawsonI mean, devolution of powers from the centre is one of the conversations that Nigeria is having right now, especially in the light of the recent insecurity, issues and poverty, we would see how that works. But let me quickly pick up on another theme. Politicians usually valourize the role of small businesses in our economy, but in one of your essays that has made a very big impression on me. You took a different approach by looking at the role of big businesses in nurturing development and enrichment. Can you expatiate a bit on the role of big businesses in an economy. Ricardo HausmannSo I think when you have a very developed society, you tend to have, you know, markets for every possible input you want. You want electricity, somebody sells electricity, you want to photocopy or you want to print this stuff, there is a store that prints stuff for you, you want to design a campaign ad or television ad or cover it, you know, there's some people that design that. So you can start a business and buy everything else from the stuff that people produce around you. Right, so all of your possible inputs are things that other firms can do for you. So you can start small, and buy everything you need from everybody else. When you start in a less developed society. Many of those things that you wish you could buy from everybody else are just not there. And maybe you have to self provide your own electricity, maybe you'll have to print your own stuff, maybe you'll have to design your own covers, maybe we'll have to have all of these things done inside the company, because there are no reliable suppliers outside the company. So as a consequence, you know, modern firms tend to start bigger in less developed countries than in more developed countries, in more developed countries, you can just rely on other people doing stuff for you. As a consequence, no existing Corporation, or in some sense, organisations that have developed the capacity to provide internally things that markets cannot do for them. So once they exist, they have typically financial capital, they have a managerial capital, they have a reputational capital, that allows them to make it much easier for them to start a new line of business. You know, the Silicon Valley way to start a new line of business is that you create a startup, a startup is very easy to create in Silicon Valley, or in a very advanced place, because everything that the startup needs they can buy out there. But in the place where you cannot buy everything out there. You cannot start that small. But a corporation, a conglomerate, if it were to decide to diversify into more line of business, it could just reallocate some of its managers, it could reallocate some of its cash flows. It could because of its reputation, it could do joint ventures with other companies, maybe some foreign company or something that can bring in some technology and they can do things as a group that a startup cannot do. So that's why I wrote this piece saying, you know, a conglomerates can be and war in the case of Japan and Korea, a fundamental story of the growth process. Japan and Korea diversified because Toyota, Mitsubishi, di Woo, Samsung diversified internally as conglomerates. Right? It's not that just more companies appeared, it's that those companies diversified. So, I think that it's an important avenue for growth that a country should consider, but,  conglomerates can come You know, can be a force for good or they can be a force for bad either. conglomerates can just become you know, monopolist in one industry move to the next industry and become a monopolist there move to next industry and become a monopolist there and then suddenly become a huge barrier to entry for other people. It's very important that the conglomerates do well and this was the case of Japan and Korea, They are exporters, you tolerate conglomerates because they are exporters', a conglomerate that only sells domestically. It's like one of the local football teams. A conglomerate that exports is like the the national team. It's like the one that's playing at the World Cup. It's facing massive competition from other companies in other countries. So it deserves all the support of society. But a conglomerate that only sells domestically, you know, it has the danger of just becoming the local monopolist and stifling everybody else from competing against them. So, conglomerates can be a stepping stone, can be an avenue for growth, but they have to be good conglomerates. Tobi Lawson Let's talk about trade and I will set the scenario this way, a little over a year ago, about a year and a half. Nigeria closed its borders to all forms of trade. The justification was that the country is far too much of a dumping ground, especially for agricultural products, which we can actually produce locally. They were extreme measures to prevent imports of some of these products and the result, some would argue, as they argued against the move at the time, has been disastrous. Food inflation is through the roof, people became poorer. People are having to spend more on food than anything else, mostly vulnerable households. But you still hear people, either policymakers or even intellectuals, say that these are necessary sacrifices that developing countries have to make in order to industrialise. You have people like Ha Joon Chang, who provide intellectual guidance for this view, and that the West in its own process of industrialization went through much of the same thing, as a scholar who has also done a lot of work on trade for a poor developing country. What is the right way to think about trade policy? Ricardo HausmannOkay, first of all, let's separate trade from just macro-economic mismanagement. Because a lot of the problem of Nigeria comes not from trade mismanagement, but from the trade consequences of macro-economic mismanagement, you have exchange controls, dual exchange rate regimes, etc. That's not because you want to have an industrial policy. That's because you have messed up your macro policies. That is you have a government that has a deficit that is insufficiently finance. So it has to print money to finance it. As it prints the money, the dollar goes through the roof, the naira tanks, right. And then the government doesn't like that, And it wants to say that, you know, it's running out of foreign exchange. So it puts exchange controls, it tries to limit people's access to dollars, and so on. And in that context, it creates an environment where it's very hard for companies to get tools and machines from abroad, it's very hard for them to get raw materials, intermediate inputs, spare parts from abroad and it just makes them extremely unproductive and as a consequence, they have uncompetitive products that they cannot sell anywhere else, but in Nigeria, through enormous protection. Now, trying to do things without importing the tools, the raw materials, the intermediate inputs, the spare parts, is just trying to do things in a very, very difficult way. It's trying to, you know, as my father likes to say, "Why make things difficult if you can make them impossible," the way the world works, is that you don't have to make everything yourself. You just have to do some steps that add value to the things that they that you're going to put together. I remember having a conversation with Governor Fashola in Legos. And he's saying, you know, we want to have a furniture industry. So we want to prohibit the imports of foreign wood for furniture, we want it done with Nigerian wood, and said, You know, you're the governor of Lagos, not all furniture has to be made out of wood, could be made out of metals, it could be made out of plastics, it could be made out of other materials, right and all of the materials you want for furniture industry, or as far as the Lagos sport. So if you want a furniture industry, by all means have a furniture industry, but don't dump on the furniture industry the responsibility of only making furniture by buying inputs in Nigeria, because that's a recipe for disaster. If for some reason your inputs you couldn't buy in Nigeria for x or y or you could buy some inputs and not the others. Like you can buy two legs of the chair but not the other two legs. Well, then that's not a chair. So focus on making sure that your units of production have what it takes for them to succeed and that often implies access to the raw materials that intermediate inputs, the tools, spare parts that no Nigeria doesn't currently make. But that's fine. That's how East Asia did it. If you look at, you know, they started exporting garments, they weren't making the textiles, and they weren't making the fibres, and they weren't making the cotton. They started cutting and sewing and then they move from cutting and sewing to designing the shirts and so on, then they move to making the textiles then they move to maybe making the artificial threads that went into new forms of textiles and they did that gradually. But they did not start by closing themselves off from all the inputs that the world produces, and that you could use to make stuff in Nigeria. So I would say the problem in Nigeria, is that you have a fiscal problem that is being solved by printing too much money that generates an exchange rate mess, that exchange rate mess, creates an environment that makes it very difficult for companies to operate. And in that process, it generates an overvalued exchange rate, which makes manufacturing artificially uncompetitive, and you get less of it, not more of it, less of it because you want, you know, you're constraining the exchange rate at which they could be exporting. And you're constraining their access to raw materials and intermediate inputs. So if anything, you're hurting the chances for growth, not helping them. Tobi Lawson Part of the reasons asscribed to countries like Nigeria, finding it impossible to industrialise, or even diversify their sources of income is the "resource curse" hypothesis. First of all,  is this a real thing, are countries like Venezuela and Nigeria poor because of the so called Dutch disease? And secondly, how do countries that are also resource rich like Norway and Australia, who are rich and highly developed? How did they manage to break out of the "resource curse." Ricardo Hausmann So there are different interpretations of the resource curse when the Dutch disease was coined. It was coined because there was a boom in the Netherlands of a natural gas exports. And those natural gas exports meant that they were exporting a lot, generating a lot of foreign exchange, and their local currency strengthened and that strengthening of the local currency made the rest of the economy uncompetitive. So, if that were the problem, then that would have been a problem in 2007 In Nigeria when the price of oil reached $140 a barrel. But then it goes away as a problem now after 2014 when the price of oil went under $40. Right. So that's no longer the problem, right? I mean, Nigeria's exports of oil are coming down, oil production is stagnant, domestic oil consumption is up. So oil exports are going nowhere, and the price of oil is now lower than it was 10 years ago. Okay. So excess of foreign exchange that used to be called the Dutch disease is no longer a problem. I wrote a paper with my colleague Roberto Rigobon, saying that the problem may not be just how much foreign exchange your oil makes, but just the fact that it's a very volatile amount. Now that it goes up in some years down another year. So the exchange rate as a consequence is very unstable and unpredictable and it makes business in the country, very risky, because you don't know what is the exchange rate or you're going to face and that's not so much because you have a lot of oil, it's just because oil income is very volatile. So that's a separate problem. And that one typically has to be addressed by having some mechanism that stabilises government finances. So you have to run a government that has unstable income and wants to have stable spending programmes. So you want kids to be able to go to school every year. You want roads cleaned and repaired every year. You want to have the hospitals open every year. You want to police services every year but your income is going up and down. How do you do that? That's a problem of stabilising the government accounts and that's a different kind of problem of living with oil. A third problem of living with oil is something that they call rent-seeking. That is, all the money is in the government, then people who are very entrepreneurial, instead of setting up businesses may dedicate themselves to trying to grab the money that the government has. And so it distorts the incentives of society from, you know, doing things that are productive to doing things that are unproductive but profitable in just trying to seek the rents that the state has. I honestly, don't think that that's that big of a problem in Nigeria, given how small our oil revenues, vis a vis, the size of the society. So I think the big puzzle in Nigeria is why the country has not diversified more, given how little oil it has, you know, in a country like Kuwait or in a country like the United Arab Emirates, Abu Dhabi, you know, you can ask yourself a question, Well, why would they diversify, they have so much foreign exchange that they don't know what to do with it? The question in Nigeria is why have you not diversified in spite of the fact that oil is generating so little revenue these days? Tobi LawsonI'll just ask you a few off the cuff question, what is your opinion on on the so called Washington Consensus, has it failed In Africa or Latin America? Is it misunderstood? Do developing countries need to think beyond macroeconomic stability and all the other recipes proposed by the IMF? What was the way to think about this? Ricardo Hausmann Okay, so the Washington Consensus is a term that was coined by John Williamson who just passed away a week or two ago in a seminar in 1989 or 1990. I think it was 1990, a seminar that was called 'Latin American adjustment, how much has happened?' So it was really a Latin American question. Latin America was in a debt crisis, the debt crisis was associated with the fact that during the oil boom of the 1970s, it had borrowed too much money, then it was unable to pay that money and it was mired in, in a debt crisis and the question is, how do you get out of there and john Williamson said, there are these 10 things that sort of like Washington institutions agree, would be good to sort of like get out of the Latin American debt crisis. But then these 10 things became like the 10 commandments. You can take them to Eastern Europe, you can take them to sub Saharan Africa, you can take them to North Africa and the Middle East. You take them out of context, and they're supposed to work marvels no matter what. It's, it's it, in my mind, policies have to be solutions to problems. Tell me the problem, let's design a solution. It's not here are 10 solutions. You haven't told me what the problem is. So I think that policies have to be problem driven, and not solution driven and Washington Consensus is a set of solutions without a problem. So in my mind, it ended up creating an environment in which people stopped thinking about what are the policies that they need to adopt, and just as to whether they have or haven't adopted the 10 policies in the list, even if those 10 policies in the list wouldn't solve the problem that we're trying to solve? Because, you know, you haven't even asked the question, what is the problem you're trying to solve? So that's why, with my colleagues, Andres Velasco and Dani Rodrik, we develop this idea of growth diagnostics, that the first thing you have to do is to try to understand what the problem is and once you have a clear idea of what the nature of the problem is, then let's explore the solution space and most likely, you're not going to end in the Washington Consensus, because you know, it will be a coincidence that you do. So from a certain point of view, the worst thing that was delivered by the Washington Consensus, is that it encouraged people to stop thinking of what the right policies are and just assuming that they have an implemented as list of policies that may not be the right ones. Tobi LawsonYou've also been in government in Venezuela. So I'll ask you, what you think holds up the use of knowledge by policymakers? Or should I say what prevents the right diagnosis of the problems that some poor countries have? Because, what you find is that and Nigeria is also a good example of this. What you find is that a lot of these countries, even though different administrations different political actors, they come into power and repeat the same policies that have been tried in the past and failed. So, what prevents the diffusion of knowledge at a governmental level? Ricardo HausmannWell, I mean, I think that people do not act on the basis of how they see the world on the ideas that they have in their heads, and on the interpretations they make of the world. So ideas can change the world, if they change how people think about the world, how people interpret the world, how, how those ideas, help them to think how to act on the world. And I'm an optimist in the sense that I've tried to develop ideas, diffuse ideas, train people, educate people, work with governments, try to help them think through issues that they face. That's why I created the growth lab, the growth lab is a group of about 50 people, and we not only do fundamental research on the issues of economic development and growth. But, we also work with countries around the world, trying to help them think through these issues and we also you know, teach and educate them, and so on. So, I think ideas have a complicated way of diffusing. I think a lot of the problems in the world are related to the diffusion or the popularity of some bad ideas and if I didn't believe that I wouldn't be in the business of trying to produce new ideas, diffuse good ideas, and so on, or what I think are good ideas. So for example, I think that the Washington Consensus has been pretty much superseded by the idea that policies have to be solutions to problems and not solutions in search of a problem and that you don't start by assuming that you know, what the solution is, before you clarify what the nature of the problem is and I think those ideas have permeated even, you know, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, and so on, with difficulty, because the alternative paradigm is still popular. I mean, this whole idea of best practices, very dangerous idea, it supposes that people know how to do things, like here's the right the right way to do things, which presumes something like, you know, there is the perfect suit and you know, there's no such thing as a perfect suit, there's only a perfectly tailored suit, and everybody has a different body. So you have to tailor the suit differently and there's a lot of detail in the tailoring. So one thing is how do you defuse better ideas? And the other thing is, is it a problem of politicians not wanting to know, because the ideas they have, are an expression more of their interests than not their knowledge? It's like they like the idea because it advances their interests? Or is it just that they are wrong, or they have the wrong view of the world and you know, there's a big debate on whether its interests or whether it's ideas, the nature of the problem. I'm an optimist in the sense that I think that a lot of the things that happen in the world can be fixed by proving the ideas with which people see the world, analyse the world, interpret the world, think about the world and that's why I'm in the business of, you know, research, and teaching, you know, researching better ideas and teaching about them and by the way, Nigeria is one of the countries that sends more people to our executive education courses at the Harvard Kennedy School. There's, there's a huge community of people who have had some connection with the Harvard Kennedy School in Nigeria and you know, these are the ideas that will teach. So I'm hoping that the, you know, the reason why you have a podcast, the reason why you are trying to promote these discussions is because you also believe that the nature of the ideas with which people think the world is important for progress. That's why you do what you do. Tobi Lawson Thank you. I have a question, the relationship between democracy and development is also one that comes up regularly. I know there is a Acemoglu and Naidu paper that more or less, infer that democracy is good for growth. But lots of people, I will see people with other interests, but that's speculative, would say, Oh, well look at China. China is an authoritarian one party state and look at all the growth they have, what are the nuances on these relationships between democracy and growth or any political system? Ricardo Hausmann So I like very much the ideas about this that have been, you know, growing in a certain political economy literature, where people like Hans Rosling or Mounk or Yascha Mounk, or Dani Rodrik have been proposing, and that's that you really want to distinguish between three different rights. Okay, One is the right of the majority to make decisions about democracy. Right. So, you know, the governments are decided by a majority of people. So that's, you know, making sure that the government represents a significant swath of the population. That's, that's one idea, call that democracy. A second idea, is the idea of some kind of universal rights, that they yes, no, you might be in the minority. But that doesn't mean that the majority can kill, you can expropriate, you can harm you and torture you. Right, that there are some inalienable rights that are protected for everybody, whether you're in the majority or in the minority. And that's different. That's an idea that is often associated with liberalism. So the idea of liberal democracy is this funny balance between the majority rules, but everybody has some guarantees, right and then there is the third problem. So this second problem is called individual rights, it's very important if you're going to have something like a market economy, because if property is going to be poorly distributed as as it is everywhere, then if the majority decides to expropriate the minority, then the minority is not going to play ball and if they are the ones that have dropped the knowledge, their capacity to organise businesses and so on, they don't play ball, then there's no development. So you have to balance this individual rights with these with the idea of majority rule and on top of that, you may have other rights, a social rights that that people might want to have protected, you know, the majority might be a Muslim, and and there's a Christian minority or vice versa, do the social rights of the minority, are they protected? So there's like individual rights, social rights and majority rule and when we say democracy, we don't necessarily make these distinctions. But, what I will tell you is that the protection of individual rights is fundamental. That majority rule is also important, that these two things making them compatible is difficult and what makes it difficult to make it compatible is that somebody has to tell the majority, the elected government, the majority of society, you cannot do these things to the others and who's that thing? Well, it's suppose it's, it's an independent judiciary, something that is not under majority rule and those are the things that these populists like to destroy.  These checks and balances, that are in the system to defend the rights of the individual or the rights of minorities. So I will tell you that democracy if it's majority rule, that does not protect the rights of the individual is not going to be good for development and a lot of the development of the 19th century in Europe, happen in liberal governments, that is governments that protected individual rights, that were not democratic. So I would, instead of asking the question, you know, democracy, good or bad, I would ask the question, majority rule, individual rights, minority social rights, are they being protected? And obviously, it's great if you have all three. But let's not assume that just because you have majority rule you have all three. Tobi LawsonWhat about the issue of globalisation? I know your colleague, Dani Rodrik has written about this, he has this famous trilemma. How much should developing countries worry about things like the globalisation of capital, the level of interconnectedness of the economies with the developed countries and other parts of the world and some of the risk that may come with that, like the global financial crisis of 2008. So how should developing countries think about this, we also have the Asian Financial currency crisis of 1997 as a backdrop. Ricardo  Hausmann So as a backdrop, so the way I think about it is that, you know, Nigeria is a country of 200 million people give or take, that give or take is about 3% of the world population. If ideas were one per capita, then 97% of the ideas are outside of Nigeria and you want to use all of the ideas available to create progress in Nigeria. So you want Nigeria to connect to this global social brain. So inserting Nigeria in the flow of these ideas, these know-hows, these technologies, these ways of doing things is very important for Nigeria's development and this quote unquote, 'globalisation' this interconnection. Now people emphasize a lot, on capital flows and, or maybe goods and services. But I want to emphasise insertion of Nigeria into other flows into the flows of people Nigerians abroad and how they connect back home that they asked for, or foreigners in Nigeria? How can they bring in stuff? ideas? Know how there was not there before? How do you connect your universities abroad? How you connect your research centres with the rest of the world, etc. So how interconnected are your possibilities with, you know, all the advances of the world. So from that point of view, I will say that globalisation is a force for good. I think that, as I mentioned before, one of the key developments going forward is going to be the fact that a lot of the tasks in the world can be done from anywhere and that creates an opportunity for Nigerians to be able to perform tasks, sell their their ideas, do stuff for the rest of the world, through zoom, or, you know, Microsoft Teams, or whatever. So, you know, right now, we are producing a podcast, you're in Nigeria, I'm in the US, we didn't ask permission for anybody to do this, we're producing something jointly and you wouldn't want a world where this becomes illegal or becomes regulated or restricted. So I think that these opportunities are probably more valuable for developing countries and therefore developed countries, it's a very important stepping stone forward. So I hope the world remains sufficiently open, so that the countries in the global south are able to tap into the flows of progress that are happening elsewhere in the world. Now, that doesn't mean that you have to renounce national sovereignty too much. But it's very important to understand that there are two competing goals. One goal is to have sovereign policy. So every polity, every political community can decide more or less what it is that they want to do and that's a good thing. The other good thing is to have common policies that, you know, if we can agree on, you know, whether computers are going to run 120 volts, or 240 volts, doesn't really matter. They can work equally well, at 120, or 240. But if we have a standard, it's easier for everybody, so my stuff can work in your country and your stuff can work in my country. So having common policies is also good, and to the extent that a lot of the human interactions are happening between people who belong to different political jurisdictions, you know, people who are in different countries, then the value of common rules becomes that much more important. I like to say that sovereign state can be half a bridge over say, the river that separates it from the neighbouring country, but the other half of the bridge has to be built by the other country and on half a bridge, you don't get half the traffic, you get zero. So there is some value of having common rules. I think part of the tension that is at the core of this is that there is a good thing of having sovereign national rules that the local political community can agree on, and have in common rules, rules that are respected both by us and by people in the rest of the world that are interacting with us and that that tension is a little bit what the world is trying to figure out. But, the forces that are favouring deeper globalisation, I think are technological in nature and they're very powerful they are not, it used to be the decline in the cost of transportation. Now, it's incredible expansion of the ability to move information around and you know, you just see by the magnitude of just the number of things that are available online for you to watch whether it's Netflix or Amazon Prime, 500 different television channels, and the news of the world, etc. You would want every society to have access to COVID-19 vaccines, you wouldn't want every society to have to produce its own vaccine. So there's enormous benefits from a world where international interactions are deeper, we just need to figure out what's the political arrangements that makes that as compatible as possible with local preferences. Tobi Lawson What about inequality, which is also a very topical issue now, whether it's on TV or Davos, talking, everybody's worried about inequality issue. Is the optimal point for poor countries or developing countries to start seeing these as a problem. So what I'm saying is, do countries need to concentrate on growth first, is there a trade off, because most of the remedies to inequality at least the policy proposals involve redistribution and poor economies may not have the fiscal capacity, some attempt it, but they may not have the capacity to do the kind of redistribution that some politicians are proposing to deal with the problem. So how do you think about this? Ricardo Hausmann So I think it's very important to finish the sentence, inequality of what, because if we don't specify the what we don't know what we're talking about, and I think that a lot of the discussion presumes a what we are concerned about what inequality we're concerned about and a lot of the discussion is what you might want to call the inequality of income and the idea out there is that there's sort of like a national pie, and some people are getting very big slices of the national pie and other people are getting small slices of the national pie. And then as you say, maybe can we redistribute how people are slicing the national pie. But an alternative way of thinking about this is that there is really no national pie. There are different pies that are being baked by different organisations, by companies or firms of a different size, and so on and so in reality, what you have is an enormous inequality in the sizes of the pies that different parts of society are baking. Okay, so it's inequality in the sizes of the pie, not in the way each pie is being sliced. Imagine that each pie is a corporation, it's a company or an organisation of some kind. Well, we know some of them are informal family, micro enterprises, and some are, you know, bigger companies, and so on. So, and inside each one of them, there is a division of, of the pie in slices. But what would strike you is enormous inequality in the sizes of these pies, to call it by another name, there is enormous inequality in productivity. There are some parts of society that are operating at very low levels of productivity, you know, I drove from Abuja to Kaduna and then on to Kano, and I stopped in a bunch of rural villages, and I looked at the farms and how they were farming and how much corn they were getting per hectare, and how many hectares they had to produce, and how they were doing things. Amazingly low productivity farms, where, you know, farmers would be able working very, very hard to tender to one or two hectares, and at very low productivity and very low incomes. So one thing I really worry a lot about is what can we do to reduce the inequality in productivities and I think that the inequalities in productivities, are very large, because there's many people who are excluded from access to the things that will make them more productive to the networks of energy, or transportation, of labour markets, of knowledge, of agricultural extension services, of value chains, of storage facilities, of logistics, and so on, that would allow their work to be much more productive. So to me, a strategy of inclusion, so as to make everybody's work more productive, especially the ones that are operating at the lowest level of productivity gains, that would be good for growth, because growth has to do with how productive are people and you're able to make them more productive, output will be higher. So it's a strategy for growth. But because we're focusing on the least productive and making them more productive, you're also reducing income inequality. So our strategy for inclusion is a win-win strategy. It's a strategy that makes everybody better off and it would reduce inequality to strategy for growth. It's a strategy that would reduce inequality, a strategy of redistribution. It's sort of like compensating people for their exclusion, saying, Well, given that, you know, you have to operate in a place where there's no electricity, there's no irrigation, or no good roads, there's no storage facilities, there's no logistics, you know, so there's nobody to take your crop when it's time and it's starting to run. So you have to sell it at whatever price you can get. So we live in an environment that is very unproductive and because of that, here's a check, or here's some money. Well, that's compensating them for the fact that they cannot operate in a more productive environment, and that that's a very, very secondary improvement. These people would be much happier. If instead of compensating them for their exclusion, you would stop excluding them and focus on including them and that can be as expensive or more expensive from a fiscal space point of view than redistribution. But it implies a completely different way to think about the problem and to allocate resources. So I think that what less developed societies need is a strategy for inclusion because it's Win win and because it's better. Tobi Lawson Africa is currently at about 50% urbanisation and that's projected to reach about 75% by the middle of the century. We are quite worried about our cities, overpopulation, infrastructure, and so many other things. What do you think of new ideas and development that are coming up, like charter cities, these was first proposed by Paul Romer, a little over a decade ago, but it's gaining some traction in some circles. I know there are experiments in Honduras, and some other places, what's your opinion about fancy ideas or  radical ideas like this?Ricardo HausmannSo first of all, I think the fact that Africa is urbanising is potentially a very good thing. You're mentioning that, you know, it's dangerous, because it might require more infrastructure and so on. Well, the truth is, it's cheaper to provide infrastructure and public services in urban areas than in rural areas. So it just makes, you know, the lack of provision of infrastructure more visible maybe. But it's cheaper to provide that infrastructure in urban areas than it is in rural areas. So in principle, urbanisation can be a good thing. Unfortunately, Africa has figured out ways, and Latin America too, to make cities that are poor, and that are disastrous, and that suddenly, you might get the increases in crime and insecurity and other sorts of problems that were not there in rural life. So it's very important to get urbanisation right and I think that a critical determinant of whether a city is successful or is not successful, is one of the things that can be done in the city, and sold outside of the city, or to people who live outside of the city, every place in the country and every place in the world is dependent on being able to buy things that it doesn't make and the way to buy things that you don't make is to trade for them and for that, you have to make things that are bought by people outside of their place. So whether it's a village, whether it's a state, whether it's a city or a country, it's very, very important that you have things that you can sell to people who live outside of your place. So you can trade for the things that your place doesn't do and what we found is many cities just don't develop those things and they end up for example, one of the reasons why capital cities are so big, it's because the way they get money is by taxing the rest of the country and spending the money. But it's not that the city itself is a source of activity and wealth and production and so on. So that's why it's so important that we get cities that are competitive in a line of things that can be sold outside the city. That's the critical thing. I am not particularly enamoured by the idea that charter city is a solution for something. The idea that Paul Romer deservedly won the Nobel Prize for making us understand how difficult it is to explain growth and he has a theory of, you know, what does it take to explain global growth, that is growth at the technological frontier of the world. He doesn't really have a theory of what explains why some countries catch up and other countries don't catch up. What explains the distance that countries have relative to the technological frontier? It's a country like Singapore, with a income per capita, say of 60,000? Why are countries at $1,000 or $2,000 so? What can you do to get to $60,000? Paul Romer's contribution to economics doesn't answer that question. It asks, What determines the rate of growth of countries that are at $60,000? So he, in some sense, borrowed the idea of the problem why countries are not at $60,000 the things that prevent you from being at the technological frontier. He thinks that the reason why countries don't approach the technological frontier is because they have bad institutions. That's his explanation. That they have bad institutions and, and charter cities are a way of like buying good institutions, important, good institutions and that's his interpretation of what happened in Hong Kong. Hong Kong because of, you know, the settlement of the wars with China, it was given to Britain and it was run by Britain and it was British rules that led to the growth of Hong Kong. So he's saying why can't we make other places like Hong Kong, I will put it to you that the reason why countries don't approach the technological frontier is not necessarily institutions that you can import. It's technology itself. Technology has trouble diffusing. So the distance with technological frontiers is of technological distance and the reason why you don't catch up in that technological distance is because of the nature of technology itself. The kinds of institutions that you can import are not the only thing there was because you know, after all, the British Empire had a bunch of charter cities under British rule. That didn't make Ghana or Bangladesh or Sri Lanka rich, right. So I don't necessarily think that that technological gap can be fixed by the kind of importing of institutions by chartering your city to somebody who knows how to run things. It might be in some sense, a way of importing government technology if you want to put it in my language. So I think that the problem is really trying to understand how technology diffuses, I think the future is a lot in the hands of people that it's much easier to move brains than it is to move know how into brains. That's why I emphasise before migration diasporas promoting foreign direct investment, maybe having your conglomerates internationalise and connect your country to the rest of the world, that it is through these channels that technology flows, and it's those channels that we need to focus on. Tobi Lawson One of my final question will be going further on that note, again, last couple of years, we've seen the rise of the use of RCT in economics research, particularly development economics, built on the work of Abhijit Banerjee and Esther Duflo, and, I'm Michael Kremer, who are Nobel winners and you can see the idea gained a lot of traction where you have nonprofit organisations like Givewell adopting a lot of the findings from the research from these new school of thought so to speak. What are your impressions of this turn in development economics research, generally, especially the influence on policy? I'll give you an example. Nigeria, for example has been trying we have this national policy of lifting a 100 million people out of poverty. But when you change the proposal, what you will find is this basket of proposals that have been lifted from RCTs, you know, social interventions, cash transfers and they haven't really worked and you will find that international aid organisations and policymakers love them. So, what is your impression of this turn in development economics, have we given up on growth, is that it? Ricardo Hausmann So I think that, you know, randomised controlled trials, RCTs are a tool and, you know, they are very good to answer some questions, they are useless to answer other questions. So for example, if you want to know if it's better, to give money to farmers at the time of harvesting, or give money to farmers at the time of sowing, and in terms of you know, the impact on their well being, and so on, maybe you find that it's better to give farmers money at the time of sowing because then they can use that money to sow and if you give them the money at time of harvesting, then they already have money. So giving them more money at the time when they already have money is not the ideal time to give them money. So so maybe that's something you can answer with a randomised control trial. What kind of structure should a country have? What Social Security structure should a country have? What infrastructure plan should a country have? What exchange rate regime should a country have? What, even educational system should a country have, those things you cannot do RCT on? You know, they're just not the instrument to answer those questions. So if you only do things for which you can do an RCT, you are going to be doing some kinds of things just because, you know, as they say, you look for the keys under the lamppost, not because you lost the keys on the lamppost, it's because it's the only place where you can see something. RCTs I think, have twisted the development agenda away from policies that are probably the most impactful, but for which you cannot do RCTs and into something that my good friend Lance Pritchard likes to call kinky development policies, that they are kinky in the sense that they want to do a small kink. So for example, you can do an RCT and whether putting flip charts in a school improves learning, or whether giving tablets to kids in a school improves learning, or whether taking a picture of teachers when they attend school improves teacher attendance and consequently, student learning. So all of these things you can do an RCT on, you can take a bunch of schools, you do it in some schools or another schools, and you see if it made a difference. But those are answers to super small questions to small kinks, in if you want in the way you do things. They don't go to answer more fundamental questions as to how to organise many, many aspects of society. So in my mind, the idea, by the way, and the answer much less than the promise, for example, they can tell you that if you do it this way, it works better than if you do it that way. If you give micronutrients to children in Guatemala, that it improves their learning. Okay, it doesn't answer two questions. The first question is, how does it do it? Does it do it? Because it improves their nutrition? Does it do it because we connected the family to a set of services that had other benefits for other reasons. For example, you can do an RCT, give half a million people, we force them to smoke and the other half a million people you force them not to smoke and then we look at the difference in cancer rates to see if smoking causes cancer. But, it doesn't tell you what about smoking causes cancer. What is the substance in smoking that triggers the cancer? We learn nothing about the biology of the process, the mechanism of the process and secondly, if you say give macronutrients in Guatemala, and it works, you don't know if it would work in Nigeria or if it would work in Norway, or in Singapore because maybe in other places kids don't have those deficiencies. You can do an RCT to find that, you know, whether if you give tablets to kids in school, you want to know if they can improve learning or not and you find out that it didn't improve learning. What have you learned? Well, you've already learned that that tablet used in that particular way, with that particular teaching materials in the tablet, by teachers trained in that particular way, didn't make much difference. But it doesn't answer the question. If you were to try to improve education in the school, and one of the elements would be the tablet, how should we use the tablet? What teaching materials should the tablet include? How should the teacher use those teaching materials? What should students be expected to do with those teaching materials? and so on? So it doesn't answer any of those questions? It just tells you, you did x, do some didn't have some effect or not have that effect. And as a consequence, I think one of the bad things that the RCT revolution has done is it has tended to put donors and a lot of attention to these small questions that can be answered by RCTs away from the really important questions that may not be answerable to RCTs. Tobi Lawson Do you think that economists should be more involved or influential in the politics in developing economies, for example, it's impossible to know this, but I want to pose the hypothetical anyway. How would Venezuela have fared if you were the president instead of the economic Minister? Ricardo Hausmann So, I think for economics to do its work? Well, it should be a science that answers questions. But that politics should be decided not only on the basis of technical solutions to questions, but also in terms of social preferences of what people want done, what priorities people have, what's more important for them, what do they want? And so I think that science cannot be a substitute of the political process. I think science should participate in the political process. I don't like when people say, you know, government should do what scientists tells them to do. Science doesn't answer the questions that many political systems need to address. For example, science can tell you if there is contagion, or there is a contagion in schools or how much contagion in schools varies. It might help you understand how are people getting infected and how they get

Louise Adams is a clinical psychologist and the Vice President of HAES Australia. Louise is also the director of UNTRAPPED, an online program for people with eating and body weight concerns. She is the host of the non-diet podcast, All Fired Up!.  Louise has written two books. The Non-Diet Approach Guidebook for Psychologists and Counsellors (2014, co-authored with Fiona Willer, APD) is a professional manual which guides psychologists and counsellors in the application of the non-diet approach. Her second book, Mindful Moments (2016) is for the general public, and teaches people how to apply self-compassion based mindfulness techniques in their everyday lives. We discuss topics including: The Damage caused by diets Social justice of HAES The prison of diet culture The reasons that people are terrified of letting go Misconceptions with eating disorder clients _____________________ If you have any questions regarding the topics discussed on this podcast, please reach out to Robyn directly via email: rlgrd@askaboutfood.com You can also connect with Robyn on social media by following her on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a review on iTunes and subscribe. Visit Robyn's private practice website where you can subscribe to her free monthly insight newsletter, and receive your FREE GUIDE “Maximizing Your Time with Those Struggling with an Eating Disorder”. For more information on Robyn's book “The Eating Disorder Trap”, please visit the Official "The Eating Disorder Trap" Website. “The Eating Disorder Trap” is also available for purchase on Amazon.

I’m interviewing Louise Adams, clinical psychologist and founder of UNTRAPPED, about the hazardous influence of body image ideals in society and on social media. We also talk about the dangerous agenda behind the Obesity Collective, its worldwide reach, and what we can do to fight this agenda. Show notes: summerinnanen.com/190 In this episode, we chat about: - Louise’s history with dieting and what brought her to this work, - Her reaction to fitness influencers on Instagram and the dangers of thin people co-opting body positivity, - The expense associated with trying to attain the “ideal body,” - What the Obesity Collective is and the dangerous agenda behind it, - Why the shift from the “war on obesity” conversation to “combat weight stigma” isn’t necessarily the good thing it appears to be, - Why you need to really examine who is behind the media you are consuming, Plus so much more! Get the shownotes:  summerinnanen.com/190

This week we are sharing a conversation that Anna M. & Elizabeth had with Sydney-based clinical psychologist Louise Adams. Louise is the founder of Treat Yourself Well Sydney, and the creator of UNTRAPPED, an online program to help people find food and body peace, and escape from the endless diet cycle. She is also Vice President of Health At Every Size®️ Australia, has written two books, and hosts a terrific podcast called All Fired Up (a must-listen!). We discuss: Why treating patients using a weight-inclusive / HAES®️ framework not only produces more positive and sustainable health outcomes, but why it is the most ethical way to treat people. The prevalence of weight bias in the medical community and how that affects the way people receive treatment and why people often think dieting or invasive surgical procedures are their “only” option to improve their health. How weight bias was quick to rear its ugly head right at the beginning of the Covid-19 pandemic in the form of  “concerns” over the correlation between weight/BMI and health risks associated with the virus. The harm in throwing around terms like the “covid 15” in reference to weight gain, particularly for kids and teens who are already super stressed. How the pandemic is affecting the mental health of kids & teens, a significant portion of whom are struggling with depression & anxiety. Some things parents can do to help their kids & teens get through this difficult time. [CW: we had to mention the “O word” a few times — we are well aware of the stigmatizing nature of this word and try not to use it — but sometimes when referencing research or the rhetoric of weight-biased researchers, it’s unavoidable.] Links: Untrapped All Fired Up Podcast Covid Contiki Tour Part 1 All Fired Up Podcast Covid Contiki Tour Part Sunny Side Up Nutrition Podcast Lutz, Alexander & Associates Nutrition Therapy Pinney Davenport Nutrition

There's no-one on the planet like my awesome friend Dr Lindo Bacon! It's been more than 4 years since we got to hang out drinking wine in a hot tub in the Napa Valley, and even though we can't see each other in person, I am SO HAPPY to kick off the new year and a new season of the All Fired Up podcast with them! Do not miss this fiercely loving wisdom from Lindo, who has NAILED the problem with self-love and is calling for a revolution - not of self-care but of BELONGING! We don't need to fall in love with our bodies - we need to work on healing our entire society, we need radical change - EQUALITY, and JUSTICE, and we need to ALLOW DIVERSITY! Basically, if all humans are welcome - if all humans belong - we can heal. Lindo has come a long way since their first book Health At Every Size, and we had an awesome conversation about how their perspective has changed - and all about their fabulous new book "Radical Belonging: How to Survive and Thrive in an Unjust World (While Transforming it for the Better). This is a not-to-be-missed episode!! Show Transcript   LOUISE: Thank you so much for coming on the show, Lindo. Welcome. LINDO: Oh, I’ve always wanted to do this, Louise. It’s always such a pleasure to hang out with you. LOUISE: I know! LINDO: So, I can’t believe we haven’t done this sooner. LOUISE: I can’t believe it either, but I’m so excited we’re talking about your new book as the reason to have you here. But I’m just…I’ve got so much to say and talk about, but it is so awesome to get to chat to you. But, you know, before we kick off…it’s been like over four years since…because we hung out in like, live, when I came in 2016 which was just before Trump got elected. LINDO: Oh, is that the timing? Yeah? LOUISE: Yeah! And now I’m talking to you just a couple of days after that whole period’s ended and we’ve got a new president. Isn’t that weird? LINDO: It is. I remember just relaxing in a hot tub with you in the Napa Valley, which is wine country in California, talking about the election. LOUISE: I know, I know, right? What a wild memory now, thinking of…the fact that I can’t even get on a plane. LINDO: Yeah, so…present tense, what are we talking about today? LOUISE: Yes, so I want to know what is firing you up at the moment? LINDO: What’s firing me up…lately I’ve been listening to all this ‘body positivity’ and what’s getting me is that everybody is preaching this ‘self-love’ message. And self-love, yeah, it’s a gorgeous thing and I wish it for everybody. But there’s this idea that that’s what’s going to save us, and we have to do all the internal work on ourselves. And it makes the whole ‘body liberation’ journey very individual. And that’s not what it’s about, because we can love ourselves fully and completely, and then we walk into a world where people tell us there’s something wrong with us. Whether it’s that we’re too fat, or we’re denied an opportunity because of our skin colour. So, I want people to know that as beautiful as self-love is, it’s not enough to save us. We also have to be working on social change. Because we’re individuals in a context, and if we forget the context then we end up blaming ourselves that we can’t love ourselves, and then it becomes problematic. But it’s hard to love ourselves in a culture that doesn’t support us. LOUISE: Absolutely. LINDO: That’s what’s on my mind right now. LOUISE: Yeah, this is so absolutely necessary, and this is very much your book. LINDO: Can I tell you a very funny thing? I was very proud to see that Radical Belonging, my book, is selling well. And it’s jumped up on Amazon’s best seller list. LOUISE: Really? LINDO: Yeah, it’s near the top of Amazon’s vest seller list. But here’s the thing, it’s the self-help best seller list. And I explicitly have a chapter in there that’s titled something like ‘why self-help is not enough’. You know? Just trying to get away from that. But it makes me laugh, I’ll take it, you know? I’m glad the book is getting around, and I’m glad the book is getting around to people who are interested in self-help. So that it can help to expand their horizons a bit. LOUISE: It helps them hopefully to abandon self-help and start changing the world. Oh wow. You have led this whole…I wouldn’t say body positivity, I’d talk about Health at Every Size®, HAES®. You’ve done three books, you’ve done ‘Health at Every Size’, which a lot of people refer to as one of the original textbooks of HAES®. And you did Body Respect, which was co-authored with Lucy Aphramor, and then Radical Belonging is your third book. And like all of us, it’s such a process, this HAES® perspective. I’m interested to ask you how things have changed for you since you first wrote HAES®, up until now. That’s a big question. 15:48 LINDO: It is. I’ll keep it short, because there’s a short and easy narrative that ties the three books. And that’s that…first of, you didn’t imply this, but I want to just announce it for the audience because there’s a big misunderstanding that people tend to think that I started the Health at Every Size® movement, and I did not. Health at Every Size® was around long before I had ever entered the scene. And my book, I think, helped to popularise it quite a bit. And so, that’s probably why I got that reputation. Anyway, that first ‘Health at Every Size’ book, I’m still proud of it. I think it’s an important book and I get a lot of feedback that it’s changed people’s lives and given professionals a totally new framework for approaching weight. So, I am still proud of it. But in retrospect, what I see is that it was very much a self-help book. It really put the emphasis on individual change. And all that stuff is valuable, but there are also a lot of limitations to it. I mean, one is that it means it’s a very privileged book because there are a lot of people that just don’t have access to being able to eat nutritiously and eat the foods that they want when they want, and they might have a job that doesn’t give them food breaks except during prescribed times so they can’t really respond to body cues, or they’ve got to learn how to make adjustments to that. Or, you know, they might be living in poverty and have difficulty taking care of themselves in that way. So anyway, there’s a lot of class privilege that’s involved in being able to make individual choices. Another problem is that we know that that stuff doesn’t play that huge of a role in our health anyway. I’m not going to deny that eating nd exercise don’t play some role in our health, they do. But research shows that all of our health behaviours combined probably only play 25% of the role in our health. LOUISE: And that’s mind-blowing. LINDO: It is. And the really big thing about your health is about how you’re treated in the world. You know? What we call the social determinants of health. So, I regret in some ways that I wrote a book that was so catered to privileged people without knowing it, and put the emphasis on things…well, I mean, it is helpful for people to learn the skills and strategies of self-help if they can, but not to put that stuff in context also means that there’ll be a lot of self-blame when people don’t get all the health results that they’re hoping for. LOUISE: Yeah, so if you can’t do it, then that’s your fault? LINDO: And if you don’t get a result… LOUISE: If you’re health’s not improving you must be doing something wrong. LINDO: Yeah. I mean, if you still have diabetes after changing your diet and exercising, you’re doing something wrong. Or even if you get, you have diabetes and you’re not eating so nutritious, right? I still don’t think there should be self-blame. Anyway, that’s why I was really happy to have the opportunity to kind of approach it again. And the second time I worked with Lucy Aphramor and we made all those connections, and we started talking about the interplay between the social determinants of health – things like racism, and sexism, and ablism, and how they intersect with our health and our opportunities to change our life. LOUISE: Yeah, that was an incredible book and an incredible change in emphasis from the first, because I came to your training in Seattle… LINDO: Yeah, I remember that. It was the first time we met. LOUISE: Yeah. It was like, five days of diving into all of that, the social determinants of health and thinking about oppression and thinking about stuff I had never thought about. And when I came home from that trip…I had an online program at the time, like a…to help people, based on HAES® principles. And when I came home from that trip, I literally took the whole thing down and shredded it and did it again. And came up with Untrapped, which was a co-work with all of the other people who helped, because of that, that shift in emphasis…and it was mind-blowing, and just phenomenal. 20:30 LINDO: It’s interesting too how much it resonates with people, because you’re telling them ‘your story mattes’. Who you are plays a role, like, your history and what’s happened to you plays a huge role in your attitudes towards exercise, your attitudes towards your body, and how you’re treated in the world is just so, so important. Once people start to see that they’re seen, it opens up possibilities for them to come up with an individualised approach to how they want to live their life, right? Rather than following somebody else’s rules. LOUISE: Yeah, and it also sort of opens the door for social justice and really sort of taking seriously things like inequity and oppression and trauma. Here in Australia, the Aboriginal population have diabetes rates much, much higher than the white population, and of course the weight science researchers like to talk about ‘that’s because of the size of our Aboriginal population, we need to make everyone lose weight and it’s going to go away, it’ll be magic”. It’s just such bullshit to think of things that… LINDO: That’s the first thing they say, is they blame it on weight. And then the second thing they tell people to do is to diet and exercise. Even that has been shown to have limited effect on changing diabetes outcomes. But you know, what the real research is showing is provide people with more opportunity, so they have higher paying jobs, so they’re not so stressed out. Treat them better. Stop oppression. That’s how we make a dent in diabetes. LOUISE: Yeah, right? So, what a huge realisation that maybe the solution here isn’t with individual behaviour but with social change. LINDO: Right. Which again, si not to suggest that individual behvaiour change doesn’t do anything. It does. But to change the emphasis a little bit, to give people more agency in the world. LOUISE: Yeah, and more respect. LINDO: Yeah. LOUISE: Which was the name of the book, Body Respect. LINDO: Yeah. So, it was really fun to have the opportunity to write that book with Lucy Aphramor. That book was meant to be short, to the point, very concise to that people could really see the arguments clearly. And we didn’t do nearly as much storytelling as I did in my first book. This was a very different book. It was meant to really sell to people this idea of what we called in the book ‘Health at Every Size’. I think there’s still some debate as to whether that’s what people were calling Health at Every Size® at the time, or whether that was just ideas that we wanted to be Health at Every Size®. LOUISE: Interesting. LINDO: But anyway. I’m not so sure about that. But regardless, the book to me was a really important transition, and much of what’s in the book, believe it or not, I’m still very much behind. You know? I think it really…it’s last…maybe four or five years since we’ve published it. I think we’ve really grown into the ideas in Body Respect more. LOUISE: Yeah. As a HAES® community, you mean? LINDO: Yes. Exactly. And then the progression as far as the third book goes, there’s very little emphasis on…I don’t use the term Health at Every Size® often. LOUISE: Yeah, I’ve noticed. LINDO: And in part that’s because…I think there’s so many other people right now who are helping to define and grow Health at Every Size®, and I want to step back a little bit and let other people…or not ‘let’, but so that other people can emerge and there can be wider perspective. And I also don’t feel like I want to be responsible for a movement. Like, I’d rather just talk about what’s important to me and not be so closely assigned responsibility around something that is so much bigger than me and is not me. 25:04 LOUISE: Yeah, there’s so many voices and so many people and so many perspectives that need to be heard. LINDO: Right. And Health at Every Size® is a community idea. And also, I’m not so interested in physical health as much. LOUISE: Interesting. LINDO: Like, yeah, I think it’s important, but it’s not my focus. My focus is more on love and community. Maybe I should have said that in terms of what’s firing me up. I think we’re recognising more than ever how much we need each other, and that’s what I want to do. I want to forge those bonds. I find that the more that I connect with my vulnerability and expose myself in the world, the more I get seen by everyone and I can find my pockets where I get respected and valued, and that’s what feeds me. Having that kind of support, of unity. And it’s not so much that I get seen, but the richness of seeing other people too, in all their uniqueness. LOUISE: All of their states of health. Yeah. LINDO: So, belonging seems to be the thing that’s captured me more, and why I wrote about that in my last book. LOUISE: Yeah, belonging. And it’s such a beautiful word. LINDO: It is. LOUISE: What’s…what does it mean to you? What does belonging mean? LINDO: Belonging to me is about that unconditional love. It meant that I can expose the stuff that I might not be so proud of in myself, and yet I’m still loved and validated and seen and appreciated, and people will sit with me through that, right? And that gives me opportunity to make change, or not. But that’s a very different idea to what our culture offers up to people. Like, it says…it kind of sets normal standards and it tells you that you belong if you match up with that. If you’re thin enough, for example, you belong. If you’re cisgender, you belong. And so many people feel that they don’t have the same ability or opportunity ot be appreciated in the world. LOUISE: So, it’s like diet culture would say there’s conditional belonging. LINDO: Right, right. LOUISE: And you’re saying radical belonging, we all belong. LINDO: Right, radical. LOUISE: Radical, meaning like, we don’t need to fit into boxes. LINDO: Right. So, it’s two things there. It’s about not needing to fit into boxes. What that means is we take on social justice issues, because we have to value everybody in this world. And then the second thing is just recognising that humans are vulnerable, we get scared, we make mistakes and inviting all of that humanity into the picture too. LOUISE: Yeah, welcoming that. LINDO: Yeah. LOUISE: It is, it’s so beautiful. This book is so beautiful. It sort of fills you up. I’m interested, what led you to write Radical Belonging? LINDO: When I started writing it, it wasn’t because I had this idea in mind of a book I wanted to get out. In fact, it actually started just as a personal journal. And at first, I was basically just writing my gender identity, and looking at the obstacles over the years, how I overcame them. And I’d say that that first writing was something that was very painful, and it certainly wasn’t something that I wanted exposed to the world, because it was all about my pain. But when I looked at it, I also realised that I’ve developed to much resilience over the years. The stuff that I got japed for when I was a kid…my parents hated that I liked to wear clothes that were meant for boys, they wanted me to wear dresses. When I wore dresses, I always just felt like I was doing drag, right? My parents always just shamed me for that, saw it as something that was really wrong. Never could I go out in public dressed the way I wanted to dress. LOUISE: That’s awful. LINDO: Right. And I have to realise that I got through all of that stuff, you know? Maybe, sure I had to develop an eating disorder to figure out how to…you know, food got me through some of those difficult times. LOUISE: But that’s coping strategy, right? It did get you through. LINDO: Exactly, right. So, I was able to kind of rewrite the book and look at how I saved myself, and not just through the eating disorder but how I learned other skills to kind of manage discomfort, so I no longer needed the eating disorder or the substance abuse that I also went through when I was younger. And recognising that I had developed so many skills to kind of transform the challenges that I was given. And then I went back, and I looked at the book, and was able to look at it through my scientific lens. To recognise that hey, there’s a biological reason why I was reaching for food. And I could recognise the way that trauma kind of lodges in your body, or in my body. You know? And how that participated in a distrust of other people, and hypervigilance that I kind of carried with me in adulthood and kind of a… 31:08 LOUISE: That’s the legacy of trauma, that hypervigilance. That fracturing of trust. LINDO: And that inability to kind of sit with discomfort. So, I could kind of put the science to it and show how trauma played out physically in my body and resulted in a lot of behaviours. And then I could also look at the part two to that, how I developed strategies that kind of rewired  my brain so that I got better at tolerating things, and didn’t have to jump to coping behaviours. And I could fill in all of the science for what you can do to kind of save yourself. LOUISE: Yeah, that’s what I love about the title. It’s ‘how to survive and thrive in an unjust world’. So, not just survival. LINDO: Right, and come out happy and having fun. You have difficult times too, but learning how to just accept them and get through them. LOUISE: Resilience is a remarkable thing. Humans are like, we’re pretty tough. LINDO: We can be. But you can always keep getting better at it. LOUISE: Yeah, and that’s what this book is all about. It’ like, how to do that. LINDO: And then the big recognition that I had through all of that is one of the reasons why we develop all of the coping challenges is because we really want to be loved and appreciated by other people. And when we get rejected, it hurts. And so it makes sense that we develop an inauthentic self to kind of protect ourselves in the world. It makes sense that we kind of run away from relationships and get scared. But once you recognise that it’s all about fear of connection, because connection is what saves us. Right? I mean, that’s the irony. We’re scared of something because if we don’t get it, we can’t survive. Right? So the more you can develop the courage to kind of jump into relationships, and be with people, and be vulnerable… LOUISE: And authentic. LINDO: Yeah. LOUISE: And that’s what you’ve done! By writing the book and putting it out there, that’s the ultimate of what you’ve done. LINDO: Yeah, I put myself out there. I showed the world who I was and asked to be seen in the way that I haven’t been seen previously. LOUISE: And I think that’s one of the loveliest things about this book, is that we get to meet you. LINDO: Thanks, that’s sweet. LOUISE: Alongside the science. But the ‘you’, the human, everything that you’ve been through was… LINDO: Thank you for that. And I think that the storytelling in the book and the vulnerability does make it a lot more readable and fun. I think too that one of the things that I was really looking for was using myself so that other people could see themselves, too. And I was really proud when Ijeoma Oluo who wrote the introduction to the book…she was a stranger to me and I just sent her the book and asked her if she’d read it, and it just moved her. And I asked her to write the foreword and…she’s a black woman, she’s an activist and what she said was that in every chapter she was able to see herself. To me, that just made me cry. That was what I was shooting for in the book, to use myself to open up the possibility that other people can see themselves and think about similar stories. And I write other people’s stories into the book too, to help that process along. But it was really beautiful, because Ijeoma had so many different social identities than I do, and yet she saw herself so profoundly there. LOUISE: That’s extraordinary. LINDO: That to me was a marker of success, you know? That I’d been able to somewhat universalise this book across our different social identities. 35:28 LOUISE: Yeah, you do. And you also speak about so many just human things that we don’t really think about. Like, how much avoidance we engage in, for example. Like, if we’re feeling shame about friends, or things that are going on socially, how much we hide. There’s so many little snippets in the book that you can relate to, like “oh, I’ve done that! I’ve done that” and we don’t really hear about this. It’s really human. LINDO: Right, right. LOUISE: What was it like to come out at trans in the book? Because, you know, in your community everybody knows you and knows you as Lindo for a long time. But this book’s just come out. What’s that been like from that perspective? LINDO: Well, it’s a huge relief. It’s interesting to use the word ‘come out’, because… LOUISE: I wasn’t sure what to say. LINDO: I know, and I’m never sure what to say either. Because I’m not sure that my gender identity has ever changed since birth. I think most people are much more gender fluid than I, they’re much more playful about it. But my gender identity has been the same. So, it’s not like there was a ‘coming out’ period, or a change that happened. I think the problem is though that we live in this world where people just assume a gender binary. And so, everybody has tried to put me into this package that was never ‘me’, and except for in childhood when I really tried to be feminine because my parents, it was important to my parents, I never was ‘woman’ that people saw me as. And being genderqueer, it’s not an easy box for people to put you into. People see me and they just make an assumption about who I am. And I think that shifted over time, physically I look a lot different now, but not enough to always push me out of the like, like what people think of in terms of gender presentation. Not enough to necessarily push me out of a category where people are making the assumption…like, making the assumption that I’m a woman. For example, if you’re hearing audio right now and my voice is definitely what most people attribute to ‘woman’, and so on the phone everybody just misgenders me automatically. But anyway. Having this book out, I’m telling people ‘don’t do that’. So, before it made sense to me that people would make the wrong assumption, but now I’m not allowing for that anymore. Like, I’m just out there and asserting myself. So, I guess that just, might feel different. LOUISE: Yeah, and that’s what you’re talking about in the book as well. Not just the act of self-love but acts of social justice and sticking up for yourself. You’ve got many examples in the book of when you’ve tried to do that and make changes, and that’s part of body liberation, right? LINDO: Sure, yeah. LOUISE: Super cool. So, one of the really fascinating bits of the book, from the science perspective, is when you start talking about the brain on trauma, and how experiences of oppression and exclusion particularly actually impacts our brain. Can you talk a bit about that? LINDO: Sure. It was totally fascinating to me to learn that when you experience rejection, that it’s the same areas in your brain light up as when you experience physical pain. LOUISE: Wow. LINDO: Yeah. All these times socially we’re excluded, we’re told we’re not enough, we’re told there’s something wrong with us, we’re told we’re too fat, all of these things lodge in our brain and after a while the brain changes and adapts to this. We call this ‘high allostatic load’, when you’ve had repeated experiences of…I’ll call it trauma, or…actually, why don’t we call it microaggressions. You can read the book to come up with distinctions there. But repeated experiences of microaggressions add up to trauma in your brain, and after a while your body comes to expect all of these things. And what that means is that you’re going to have a higher level of anxiety, be more fearful when you go into different circumstances, because you have experiences of rejection in the past. And people develop a hypervigilance, get depressed, we talked about this a little bit earlier. Your body adapts and this becomes your go-to response, this kind of fear being in the world. And it also contributes to things like Type 2 Diabetes and heart disease risk. Which explains why marginalised people are much more likely to get many chronic diseases and to die earlier than people who are given more social and economic privilege in the world. 41:00 LOUISE: Yeah, that is so important and so overlooked. LINDO: Right, and it’s interesting to see how physical and biological it is. That it’s not that the individual isn’t trying hard enough in the world, it’s that the world is trying to… LOUISE: The world is being hard for the individual. LINDO: I think we’re always kind of focused on the negative stuff, but the amazing thing is that we always have the opportunity to rewire our brain so that we don’t have to be as hypervigilant in the world and distrustful. There are plenty of strategies we can employ that are going to help our brain to sit with discomfort more readily, and to tolerate not knowing things and going into unfamiliar environments, etc. There are a lot of things we can develop, and probably one of the most beautiful and most powerful is that our friendships can help us to develop a physical resilience that’s going to make us more able to handle life when it gets hard, and more happy in the world. LOUISE: So interesting, so connection can help. LINDO: Yeah, connection is probably one of the most important things, and it can help you to feel more safe in the world, so that you’re more able to kind of venture out and take risks. LOUISE: So, it’s really important to find your people. LINDO: It is. And it’s really important to learn how to do vulnerability, right? Sometimes you need to be protected in the world, and that makes sense because the world isn’t safe. But if you can find safe places where you can truly be yourself and you can get appreciation for that, and love for that, the more you can develop that, the more it can give you a sense of peace that’s going to allow you to move more freely and happily through the world. LOUISE: Yeah. And it’s those people, like I’m thinking of…you’re an example of someone who has that. Connection, community, support. And with that resilience, you can write books like you’re written and put them out there and have these conversations. LINDO: I know, and I appreciate that. I know a lot of people couldn’t put this kind of vulnerability out, that it would be too threatening to them. LOUISE: Yeah, if they don’t have a community or a connection. LINDO: I appreciate that I am so bolstered by other people that it allows me…it protects me, it allows me to do this. And I think in some sense that’s why I feel a responsibility to do the kind of work that I do, because I have so much privilege and… LOUISE: But also, in your bubble…not bubble, but in your community, it’s an inclusive community too, right? There’s attention to Black Lives Matter, there’s gender diversity, there’s all those kinds of things. I’m not at all saying that social justice is working over where you live, but there’s efforts and there’s attention and there’s a sense of preparation, and that social change is important as well. LINDO: Right. I mean, my world would be so boring and unimaginative if everybody looked like me and acted like me. And the way we get excitement in your life is having that kind of exposure to people in all their glorious uniqueness. LOUISE: Yeah, we need to build that. LINDO: And it’s interesting, because I wish the larger corporations would recognise how much creativity they’re losing out on by only hiring certain people who fit a certain mould. You know? Like, you can recognise for example that people who are neurodiverse and might…that everybody sees the problem through a different lens that’s going to allow them to have some kind of unique perspective. And I think that corporations would benefit from like, having so many different perspectives to find what really works well in the world, you know? You think about, if you’re not going to hire fat applicants you have so many fewer applicants to choose from. You’re not going to find the best people. 45:45 LOUISE: Yeah. You’ll probably some very hungry people if they’re dieting, too! LINDO: Yeah, so the more we open up to all the different expressions of humanity, it only benefits us. LOUISE: It really does, and that’s such a lovely way of looking at it. We need to be really welcoming diversity in all areas, in all walks of life. It’s a totally different way of thinking. LINDO: And we do it not because it’s the right thing to do, but because there’s also…we benefit from it. It’s not that we’re helping other people… LOUISE: Yeah. It’s like, it’s evolution too, isn’t it? I few get rid of diversity in any ecosystem, it suffers. LINDO: Exactly. LOUISE: Bring in the glorious diversity and see what can happen. Can you tell us the story, because there’s this awesome story you tell in the book about the gym? LINDO: About the gym. Sure. You know, I haven’t read the book in a while, so I’m going to have to remember which of many stories…but I think it was going into the gym on a day that I was feeling particularly irritable. And there was a new guy that was checking everybody in. so, I do my fingerprint ID, I don’t know, maybe it was a phone ID…I don’t remember. Anyway, I guess my name pops up on the screen and he says, “have a good workout, Miss Bacon”. And it just bummed me out. Like, I had…I was going to the gym to kind of get in a better space. And to be hit right away with being misgendered, it just hit me hard and I kind of snapped at him. I don’t remember what I said. And he got all defensive and said, “that’s what the computer told him” and he was blaming it on the computer. LOUISE: The computer! LINDO: And also he couldn’t quite understand, like I looked like a woman to him, he didn’t understand wht he had gotten wrong. And unfortunately, we’re having this dispute and another worker walked up and was more sensitive, and was able to kind of get the guy to back down and explain that you can’t always know somebody’s gender identity by looking at them and we need to be open minded, and helped me through it. But then while I was working out at the gym, I was just obsessing on it. Iw as just so angry. This was just one more time when… LOUISE: it’s not the only thing, it’s another pain. LINDO: Exactly. Like, he triggered a lifetime of feeling misgendered. And it meant that I couldn’t let go of that, and it kind of spun out into somewhat of an anxiety attack. And anyway, I learned form that, right? And one of the ways I took back my power was by complaining at the gym and my…the end result of that was that they actually changed some of their policies, and that helped me to feel more empowered and respected. The fact that people adapt and change… LOUISE: That’s awesome, that’s such a massive change if out of one panic attack that message of pain in your body drove you into action. LINDO: Right. And another funny part of that story is that at first, just me protesting wasn’t getting far enough. So I just got together a few friends and we just made up a fake organisation. We called ourselves something like ‘Social Justice Advocacy Corps’ or something. LOUISE: Oh my God, that’s brilliant. LINDO: And we kind of threatened a social media callout. And I think the fear of something bigger was really what motivated them to listen. LOUISE: Really? Okay. 50:00 LINDO: So, I think that, that’s an important statement. Build communities so you can get support around this. LOUISE: Yeah, create an organisation. LINDO: Exactly, take it…if you can’t do it. LOUISE: Lean in, get a bit of pressure on them, because people these days might not respond to one person, but if you are a representative of an organisation or if you have social media… LINDO: And I think that more and more, they’re recognising that people are angry that trans folks don’t have equal rights. They’re angry at racism. So it now is a liability for a corporation to be seen in that light. LOUISE: Isn’t that cool? It’s no longer cool to be exclusionary and it has to be attended to. LINDO: So, we certainly have a long, long way of change ahead, but I think that the playing field’s a little bit different now. LOUISE: Yeah, well there’s strength in numbers, as you’re saying, and there’s an increased recognition. Isn’t it incredible to think about what the world might look like in another generation with this kind of change? It’s incredibly hopeful. LINDO: And I know that when I was a kid, I wasn’t even able to imagine ‘trans’ because I hadn’t ever seen a trans person that I was aware of. So, it didn’t even enter my mind as a possibility. But that’s not true of this next generation, at least the generation of kids that live in areas of the United Sates surrounded by that kind of imagery… LOUISE: The inclusion, yeah. LINDO: Kids are more able to find their gender identity and recognise it, it doesn’t have to be the one that was assigned to them at birth. There’s just a lot more creativity that’s possible. LOUISE: I know, exactly. I totally agree with that. I think it’s going to be just this source, amazing source of creativity. If people’s brains aren’t always bound up with that trauma and that kind of confusion, trying to stick yourself in a box that doesn’t fit, there’s so much ability to create and evolve. Yeah. There’s going to be so many cool things come out of this. Thank you for a wonderful conversation. Where can we get the book? It’s here in Australia now, I think. LINDO: Oh, it is? That’s exciting, because I think there was a little delay getting it to Australia. LOUISE: Thanks, Covid. LINDO: Covid-related problems. I’m pretty sure people can get it anywhere books are, these days. LOUISE: Yeah. And there’s an Audible version? LINDO: The Audible version comes out on February 15th, so it’s not out yet. LOUISE: But that’s only a few weeks’ time. And are you reading the book? LINDO: I am not. LOUISE: You’re not reading the book, okay. That’s okay. LINDO: But there is a really wonderful narrator, I spent days and days listening to people to come up with the perfect voice. LOUISE: Oh, how did you come up with that? What was the perfect voice for the book? LINDO: Oh, I wanted someone who could radiate compassion at the same time that they had passion, and really could find when to use one and when to use the other. LOUISE: Cool. LINDO: Yeah, there’s someone that’s really amazing that did it, so I feel good about it. LOUISE: That’s so good, I’m a big fan of Audible lately as reading in Covid for some reason has gotten really hard for lots of people. LINDO: I’m the same way, and I’m out going for walks a lot, and I just listen to books. LOUISE: This is a lovely book to listen to whilst walking, I’m definitely going to do that. LINDO: Excellent. Enjoy. Lovely talking with you. LOUISE: Thank you so much, you’re the best. Thanks. Well, I promised to give you an uplifting start to 2021, and there you are. You don’t get much more uplifting than Dr Lindo Bacon. Thank you so much, Lindo, for coming on and sharing your wonderful book and your vision of what we can achieve if we work together and work more on belonging and just how healing that is. Just a wonderful book, wonderful human. Go out and get it, everybody. And if you want to find out more about Lindo and all of the work they’re doing, head to lindobacon.com website or Instagram, @lindobacon, or on twitter @lindobacon. Some wonderful stuff that is coming out from Lindo, and some wonderful community work in relation to this book. So, go check out the website and find out more there. Okay, so we’re come to the end of the first podcast for 2021. I’m really enjoying myself talking to you, and I’m just really glad to be back. And I’m looking forward to our next episode, which will come out in a few weeks’ time. So, look after yourself, everyone. In the meantime, listen to your body. Think critically. Push back against diet culture. Untrap from the crap!    

There's no-one on the planet like my awesome friend Dr Lindo Bacon! It's been more than 4 years since we got to hang out drinking wine in a hot tub in the Napa Valley, and even though we can't see each other in person, I am SO HAPPY to kick off the new year and a new season of the All Fired Up podcast with them! Do not miss this fiercely loving wisdom from Lindo, who has NAILED the problem with self-love and is calling for a revolution - not of self-care but of BELONGING! We don't need to fall in love with our bodies - we need to work on healing our entire society, we need radical change - EQUALITY, and JUSTICE, and we need to ALLOW DIVERSITY! Basically, if all humans are welcome - if all humans belong - we can heal. Lindo has come a long way since their first book Health At Every Size, and we had an awesome conversation about how their perspective has changed - and all about their fabulous new book "Radical Belonging: How to Survive and Thrive in an Unjust World (While Transforming it for the Better). This is a not-to-be-missed episode!! Show Transcript   LOUISE: Thank you so much for coming on the show, Lindo. Welcome. LINDO: Oh, I’ve always wanted to do this, Louise. It’s always such a pleasure to hang out with you. LOUISE: I know! LINDO: So, I can’t believe we haven’t done this sooner. LOUISE: I can’t believe it either, but I’m so excited we’re talking about your new book as the reason to have you here. But I’m just…I’ve got so much to say and talk about, but it is so awesome to get to chat to you. But, you know, before we kick off…it’s been like over four years since…because we hung out in like, live, when I came in 2016 which was just before Trump got elected. LINDO: Oh, is that the timing? Yeah? LOUISE: Yeah! And now I’m talking to you just a couple of days after that whole period’s ended and we’ve got a new president. Isn’t that weird? LINDO: It is. I remember just relaxing in a hot tub with you in the Napa Valley, which is wine country in California, talking about the election. LOUISE: I know, I know, right? What a wild memory now, thinking of…the fact that I can’t even get on a plane. LINDO: Yeah, so…present tense, what are we talking about today? LOUISE: Yes, so I want to know what is firing you up at the moment? LINDO: What’s firing me up…lately I’ve been listening to all this ‘body positivity’ and what’s getting me is that everybody is preaching this ‘self-love’ message. And self-love, yeah, it’s a gorgeous thing and I wish it for everybody. But there’s this idea that that’s what’s going to save us, and we have to do all the internal work on ourselves. And it makes the whole ‘body liberation’ journey very individual. And that’s not what it’s about, because we can love ourselves fully and completely, and then we walk into a world where people tell us there’s something wrong with us. Whether it’s that we’re too fat, or we’re denied an opportunity because of our skin colour. So, I want people to know that as beautiful as self-love is, it’s not enough to save us. We also have to be working on social change. Because we’re individuals in a context, and if we forget the context then we end up blaming ourselves that we can’t love ourselves, and then it becomes problematic. But it’s hard to love ourselves in a culture that doesn’t support us. LOUISE: Absolutely. LINDO: That’s what’s on my mind right now. LOUISE: Yeah, this is so absolutely necessary, and this is very much your book. LINDO: Can I tell you a very funny thing? I was very proud to see that Radical Belonging, my book, is selling well. And it’s jumped up on Amazon’s best seller list. LOUISE: Really? LINDO: Yeah, it’s near the top of Amazon’s vest seller list. But here’s the thing, it’s the self-help best seller list. And I explicitly have a chapter in there that’s titled something like ‘why self-help is not enough’. You know? Just trying to get away from that. But it makes me laugh, I’ll take it, you know? I’m glad the book is getting around, and I’m glad the book is getting around to people who are interested in self-help. So that it can help to expand their horizons a bit. LOUISE: It helps them hopefully to abandon self-help and start changing the world. Oh wow. You have led this whole…I wouldn’t say body positivity, I’d talk about Health at Every Size®, HAES®. You’ve done three books, you’ve done ‘Health at Every Size’, which a lot of people refer to as one of the original textbooks of HAES®. And you did Body Respect, which was co-authored with Lucy Aphramor, and then Radical Belonging is your third book. And like all of us, it’s such a process, this HAES® perspective. I’m interested to ask you how things have changed for you since you first wrote HAES®, up until now. That’s a big question. 15:48 LINDO: It is. I’ll keep it short, because there’s a short and easy narrative that ties the three books. And that’s that…first of, you didn’t imply this, but I want to just announce it for the audience because there’s a big misunderstanding that people tend to think that I started the Health at Every Size® movement, and I did not. Health at Every Size® was around long before I had ever entered the scene. And my book, I think, helped to popularise it quite a bit. And so, that’s probably why I got that reputation. Anyway, that first ‘Health at Every Size’ book, I’m still proud of it. I think it’s an important book and I get a lot of feedback that it’s changed people’s lives and given professionals a totally new framework for approaching weight. So, I am still proud of it. But in retrospect, what I see is that it was very much a self-help book. It really put the emphasis on individual change. And all that stuff is valuable, but there are also a lot of limitations to it. I mean, one is that it means it’s a very privileged book because there are a lot of people that just don’t have access to being able to eat nutritiously and eat the foods that they want when they want, and they might have a job that doesn’t give them food breaks except during prescribed times so they can’t really respond to body cues, or they’ve got to learn how to make adjustments to that. Or, you know, they might be living in poverty and have difficulty taking care of themselves in that way. So anyway, there’s a lot of class privilege that’s involved in being able to make individual choices. Another problem is that we know that that stuff doesn’t play that huge of a role in our health anyway. I’m not going to deny that eating nd exercise don’t play some role in our health, they do. But research shows that all of our health behaviours combined probably only play 25% of the role in our health. LOUISE: And that’s mind-blowing. LINDO: It is. And the really big thing about your health is about how you’re treated in the world. You know? What we call the social determinants of health. So, I regret in some ways that I wrote a book that was so catered to privileged people without knowing it, and put the emphasis on things…well, I mean, it is helpful for people to learn the skills and strategies of self-help if they can, but not to put that stuff in context also means that there’ll be a lot of self-blame when people don’t get all the health results that they’re hoping for. LOUISE: Yeah, so if you can’t do it, then that’s your fault? LINDO: And if you don’t get a result… LOUISE: If you’re health’s not improving you must be doing something wrong. LINDO: Yeah. I mean, if you still have diabetes after changing your diet and exercising, you’re doing something wrong. Or even if you get, you have diabetes and you’re not eating so nutritious, right? I still don’t think there should be self-blame. Anyway, that’s why I was really happy to have the opportunity to kind of approach it again. And the second time I worked with Lucy Aphramor and we made all those connections, and we started talking about the interplay between the social determinants of health – things like racism, and sexism, and ablism, and how they intersect with our health and our opportunities to change our life. LOUISE: Yeah, that was an incredible book and an incredible change in emphasis from the first, because I came to your training in Seattle… LINDO: Yeah, I remember that. It was the first time we met. LOUISE: Yeah. It was like, five days of diving into all of that, the social determinants of health and thinking about oppression and thinking about stuff I had never thought about. And when I came home from that trip…I had an online program at the time, like a…to help people, based on HAES® principles. And when I came home from that trip, I literally took the whole thing down and shredded it and did it again. And came up with Untrapped, which was a co-work with all of the other people who helped, because of that, that shift in emphasis…and it was mind-blowing, and just phenomenal. 20:30 LINDO: It’s interesting too how much it resonates with people, because you’re telling them ‘your story mattes’. Who you are plays a role, like, your history and what’s happened to you plays a huge role in your attitudes towards exercise, your attitudes towards your body, and how you’re treated in the world is just so, so important. Once people start to see that they’re seen, it opens up possibilities for them to come up with an individualised approach to how they want to live their life, right? Rather than following somebody else’s rules. LOUISE: Yeah, and it also sort of opens the door for social justice and really sort of taking seriously things like inequity and oppression and trauma. Here in Australia, the Aboriginal population have diabetes rates much, much higher than the white population, and of course the weight science researchers like to talk about ‘that’s because of the size of our Aboriginal population, we need to make everyone lose weight and it’s going to go away, it’ll be magic”. It’s just such bullshit to think of things that… LINDO: That’s the first thing they say, is they blame it on weight. And then the second thing they tell people to do is to diet and exercise. Even that has been shown to have limited effect on changing diabetes outcomes. But you know, what the real research is showing is provide people with more opportunity, so they have higher paying jobs, so they’re not so stressed out. Treat them better. Stop oppression. That’s how we make a dent in diabetes. LOUISE: Yeah, right? So, what a huge realisation that maybe the solution here isn’t with individual behaviour but with social change. LINDO: Right. Which again, si not to suggest that individual behvaiour change doesn’t do anything. It does. But to change the emphasis a little bit, to give people more agency in the world. LOUISE: Yeah, and more respect. LINDO: Yeah. LOUISE: Which was the name of the book, Body Respect. LINDO: Yeah. So, it was really fun to have the opportunity to write that book with Lucy Aphramor. That book was meant to be short, to the point, very concise to that people could really see the arguments clearly. And we didn’t do nearly as much storytelling as I did in my first book. This was a very different book. It was meant to really sell to people this idea of what we called in the book ‘Health at Every Size’. I think there’s still some debate as to whether that’s what people were calling Health at Every Size® at the time, or whether that was just ideas that we wanted to be Health at Every Size®. LOUISE: Interesting. LINDO: But anyway. I’m not so sure about that. But regardless, the book to me was a really important transition, and much of what’s in the book, believe it or not, I’m still very much behind. You know? I think it really…it’s last…maybe four or five years since we’ve published it. I think we’ve really grown into the ideas in Body Respect more. LOUISE: Yeah. As a HAES® community, you mean? LINDO: Yes. Exactly. And then the progression as far as the third book goes, there’s very little emphasis on…I don’t use the term Health at Every Size® often. LOUISE: Yeah, I’ve noticed. LINDO: And in part that’s because…I think there’s so many other people right now who are helping to define and grow Health at Every Size®, and I want to step back a little bit and let other people…or not ‘let’, but so that other people can emerge and there can be wider perspective. And I also don’t feel like I want to be responsible for a movement. Like, I’d rather just talk about what’s important to me and not be so closely assigned responsibility around something that is so much bigger than me and is not me. 25:04 LOUISE: Yeah, there’s so many voices and so many people and so many perspectives that need to be heard. LINDO: Right. And Health at Every Size® is a community idea. And also, I’m not so interested in physical health as much. LOUISE: Interesting. LINDO: Like, yeah, I think it’s important, but it’s not my focus. My focus is more on love and community. Maybe I should have said that in terms of what’s firing me up. I think we’re recognising more than ever how much we need each other, and that’s what I want to do. I want to forge those bonds. I find that the more that I connect with my vulnerability and expose myself in the world, the more I get seen by everyone and I can find my pockets where I get respected and valued, and that’s what feeds me. Having that kind of support, of unity. And it’s not so much that I get seen, but the richness of seeing other people too, in all their uniqueness. LOUISE: All of their states of health. Yeah. LINDO: So, belonging seems to be the thing that’s captured me more, and why I wrote about that in my last book. LOUISE: Yeah, belonging. And it’s such a beautiful word. LINDO: It is. LOUISE: What’s…what does it mean to you? What does belonging mean? LINDO: Belonging to me is about that unconditional love. It meant that I can expose the stuff that I might not be so proud of in myself, and yet I’m still loved and validated and seen and appreciated, and people will sit with me through that, right? And that gives me opportunity to make change, or not. But that’s a very different idea to what our culture offers up to people. Like, it says…it kind of sets normal standards and it tells you that you belong if you match up with that. If you’re thin enough, for example, you belong. If you’re cisgender, you belong. And so many people feel that they don’t have the same ability or opportunity ot be appreciated in the world. LOUISE: So, it’s like diet culture would say there’s conditional belonging. LINDO: Right, right. LOUISE: And you’re saying radical belonging, we all belong. LINDO: Right, radical. LOUISE: Radical, meaning like, we don’t need to fit into boxes. LINDO: Right. So, it’s two things there. It’s about not needing to fit into boxes. What that means is we take on social justice issues, because we have to value everybody in this world. And then the second thing is just recognising that humans are vulnerable, we get scared, we make mistakes and inviting all of that humanity into the picture too. LOUISE: Yeah, welcoming that. LINDO: Yeah. LOUISE: It is, it’s so beautiful. This book is so beautiful. It sort of fills you up. I’m interested, what led you to write Radical Belonging? LINDO: When I started writing it, it wasn’t because I had this idea in mind of a book I wanted to get out. In fact, it actually started just as a personal journal. And at first, I was basically just writing my gender identity, and looking at the obstacles over the years, how I overcame them. And I’d say that that first writing was something that was very painful, and it certainly wasn’t something that I wanted exposed to the world, because it was all about my pain. But when I looked at it, I also realised that I’ve developed to much resilience over the years. The stuff that I got japed for when I was a kid…my parents hated that I liked to wear clothes that were meant for boys, they wanted me to wear dresses. When I wore dresses, I always just felt like I was doing drag, right? My parents always just shamed me for that, saw it as something that was really wrong. Never could I go out in public dressed the way I wanted to dress. LOUISE: That’s awful. LINDO: Right. And I have to realise that I got through all of that stuff, you know? Maybe, sure I had to develop an eating disorder to figure out how to…you know, food got me through some of those difficult times. LOUISE: But that’s coping strategy, right? It did get you through. LINDO: Exactly, right. So, I was able to kind of rewrite the book and look at how I saved myself, and not just through the eating disorder but how I learned other skills to kind of manage discomfort, so I no longer needed the eating disorder or the substance abuse that I also went through when I was younger. And recognising that I had developed so many skills to kind of transform the challenges that I was given. And then I went back, and I looked at the book, and was able to look at it through my scientific lens. To recognise that hey, there’s a biological reason why I was reaching for food. And I could recognise the way that trauma kind of lodges in your body, or in my body. You know? And how that participated in a distrust of other people, and hypervigilance that I kind of carried with me in adulthood and kind of a… 31:08 LOUISE: That’s the legacy of trauma, that hypervigilance. That fracturing of trust. LINDO: And that inability to kind of sit with discomfort. So, I could kind of put the science to it and show how trauma played out physically in my body and resulted in a lot of behaviours. And then I could also look at the part two to that, how I developed strategies that kind of rewired  my brain so that I got better at tolerating things, and didn’t have to jump to coping behaviours. And I could fill in all of the science for what you can do to kind of save yourself. LOUISE: Yeah, that’s what I love about the title. It’s ‘how to survive and thrive in an unjust world’. So, not just survival. LINDO: Right, and come out happy and having fun. You have difficult times too, but learning how to just accept them and get through them. LOUISE: Resilience is a remarkable thing. Humans are like, we’re pretty tough. LINDO: We can be. But you can always keep getting better at it. LOUISE: Yeah, and that’s what this book is all about. It’ like, how to do that. LINDO: And then the big recognition that I had through all of that is one of the reasons why we develop all of the coping challenges is because we really want to be loved and appreciated by other people. And when we get rejected, it hurts. And so it makes sense that we develop an inauthentic self to kind of protect ourselves in the world. It makes sense that we kind of run away from relationships and get scared. But once you recognise that it’s all about fear of connection, because connection is what saves us. Right? I mean, that’s the irony. We’re scared of something because if we don’t get it, we can’t survive. Right? So the more you can develop the courage to kind of jump into relationships, and be with people, and be vulnerable… LOUISE: And authentic. LINDO: Yeah. LOUISE: And that’s what you’ve done! By writing the book and putting it out there, that’s the ultimate of what you’ve done. LINDO: Yeah, I put myself out there. I showed the world who I was and asked to be seen in the way that I haven’t been seen previously. LOUISE: And I think that’s one of the loveliest things about this book, is that we get to meet you. LINDO: Thanks, that’s sweet. LOUISE: Alongside the science. But the ‘you’, the human, everything that you’ve been through was… LINDO: Thank you for that. And I think that the storytelling in the book and the vulnerability does make it a lot more readable and fun. I think too that one of the things that I was really looking for was using myself so that other people could see themselves, too. And I was really proud when Ijeoma Oluo who wrote the introduction to the book…she was a stranger to me and I just sent her the book and asked her if she’d read it, and it just moved her. And I asked her to write the foreword and…she’s a black woman, she’s an activist and what she said was that in every chapter she was able to see herself. To me, that just made me cry. That was what I was shooting for in the book, to use myself to open up the possibility that other people can see themselves and think about similar stories. And I write other people’s stories into the book too, to help that process along. But it was really beautiful, because Ijeoma had so many different social identities than I do, and yet she saw herself so profoundly there. LOUISE: That’s extraordinary. LINDO: That to me was a marker of success, you know? That I’d been able to somewhat universalise this book across our different social identities. 35:28 LOUISE: Yeah, you do. And you also speak about so many just human things that we don’t really think about. Like, how much avoidance we engage in, for example. Like, if we’re feeling shame about friends, or things that are going on socially, how much we hide. There’s so many little snippets in the book that you can relate to, like “oh, I’ve done that! I’ve done that” and we don’t really hear about this. It’s really human. LINDO: Right, right. LOUISE: What was it like to come out at trans in the book? Because, you know, in your community everybody knows you and knows you as Lindo for a long time. But this book’s just come out. What’s that been like from that perspective? LINDO: Well, it’s a huge relief. It’s interesting to use the word ‘come out’, because… LOUISE: I wasn’t sure what to say. LINDO: I know, and I’m never sure what to say either. Because I’m not sure that my gender identity has ever changed since birth. I think most people are much more gender fluid than I, they’re much more playful about it. But my gender identity has been the same. So, it’s not like there was a ‘coming out’ period, or a change that happened. I think the problem is though that we live in this world where people just assume a gender binary. And so, everybody has tried to put me into this package that was never ‘me’, and except for in childhood when I really tried to be feminine because my parents, it was important to my parents, I never was ‘woman’ that people saw me as. And being genderqueer, it’s not an easy box for people to put you into. People see me and they just make an assumption about who I am. And I think that shifted over time, physically I look a lot different now, but not enough to always push me out of the like, like what people think of in terms of gender presentation. Not enough to necessarily push me out of a category where people are making the assumption…like, making the assumption that I’m a woman. For example, if you’re hearing audio right now and my voice is definitely what most people attribute to ‘woman’, and so on the phone everybody just misgenders me automatically. But anyway. Having this book out, I’m telling people ‘don’t do that’. So, before it made sense to me that people would make the wrong assumption, but now I’m not allowing for that anymore. Like, I’m just out there and asserting myself. So, I guess that just, might feel different. LOUISE: Yeah, and that’s what you’re talking about in the book as well. Not just the act of self-love but acts of social justice and sticking up for yourself. You’ve got many examples in the book of when you’ve tried to do that and make changes, and that’s part of body liberation, right? LINDO: Sure, yeah. LOUISE: Super cool. So, one of the really fascinating bits of the book, from the science perspective, is when you start talking about the brain on trauma, and how experiences of oppression and exclusion particularly actually impacts our brain. Can you talk a bit about that? LINDO: Sure. It was totally fascinating to me to learn that when you experience rejection, that it’s the same areas in your brain light up as when you experience physical pain. LOUISE: Wow. LINDO: Yeah. All these times socially we’re excluded, we’re told we’re not enough, we’re told there’s something wrong with us, we’re told we’re too fat, all of these things lodge in our brain and after a while the brain changes and adapts to this. We call this ‘high allostatic load’, when you’ve had repeated experiences of…I’ll call it trauma, or…actually, why don’t we call it microaggressions. You can read the book to come up with distinctions there. But repeated experiences of microaggressions add up to trauma in your brain, and after a while your body comes to expect all of these things. And what that means is that you’re going to have a higher level of anxiety, be more fearful when you go into different circumstances, because you have experiences of rejection in the past. And people develop a hypervigilance, get depressed, we talked about this a little bit earlier. Your body adapts and this becomes your go-to response, this kind of fear being in the world. And it also contributes to things like Type 2 Diabetes and heart disease risk. Which explains why marginalised people are much more likely to get many chronic diseases and to die earlier than people who are given more social and economic privilege in the world. 41:00 LOUISE: Yeah, that is so important and so overlooked. LINDO: Right, and it’s interesting to see how physical and biological it is. That it’s not that the individual isn’t trying hard enough in the world, it’s that the world is trying to… LOUISE: The world is being hard for the individual. LINDO: I think we’re always kind of focused on the negative stuff, but the amazing thing is that we always have the opportunity to rewire our brain so that we don’t have to be as hypervigilant in the world and distrustful. There are plenty of strategies we can employ that are going to help our brain to sit with discomfort more readily, and to tolerate not knowing things and going into unfamiliar environments, etc. There are a lot of things we can develop, and probably one of the most beautiful and most powerful is that our friendships can help us to develop a physical resilience that’s going to make us more able to handle life when it gets hard, and more happy in the world. LOUISE: So interesting, so connection can help. LINDO: Yeah, connection is probably one of the most important things, and it can help you to feel more safe in the world, so that you’re more able to kind of venture out and take risks. LOUISE: So, it’s really important to find your people. LINDO: It is. And it’s really important to learn how to do vulnerability, right? Sometimes you need to be protected in the world, and that makes sense because the world isn’t safe. But if you can find safe places where you can truly be yourself and you can get appreciation for that, and love for that, the more you can develop that, the more it can give you a sense of peace that’s going to allow you to move more freely and happily through the world. LOUISE: Yeah. And it’s those people, like I’m thinking of…you’re an example of someone who has that. Connection, community, support. And with that resilience, you can write books like you’re written and put them out there and have these conversations. LINDO: I know, and I appreciate that. I know a lot of people couldn’t put this kind of vulnerability out, that it would be too threatening to them. LOUISE: Yeah, if they don’t have a community or a connection. LINDO: I appreciate that I am so bolstered by other people that it allows me…it protects me, it allows me to do this. And I think in some sense that’s why I feel a responsibility to do the kind of work that I do, because I have so much privilege and… LOUISE: But also, in your bubble…not bubble, but in your community, it’s an inclusive community too, right? There’s attention to Black Lives Matter, there’s gender diversity, there’s all those kinds of things. I’m not at all saying that social justice is working over where you live, but there’s efforts and there’s attention and there’s a sense of preparation, and that social change is important as well. LINDO: Right. I mean, my world would be so boring and unimaginative if everybody looked like me and acted like me. And the way we get excitement in your life is having that kind of exposure to people in all their glorious uniqueness. LOUISE: Yeah, we need to build that. LINDO: And it’s interesting, because I wish the larger corporations would recognise how much creativity they’re losing out on by only hiring certain people who fit a certain mould. You know? Like, you can recognise for example that people who are neurodiverse and might…that everybody sees the problem through a different lens that’s going to allow them to have some kind of unique perspective. And I think that corporations would benefit from like, having so many different perspectives to find what really works well in the world, you know? You think about, if you’re not going to hire fat applicants you have so many fewer applicants to choose from. You’re not going to find the best people. 45:45 LOUISE: Yeah. You’ll probably some very hungry people if they’re dieting, too! LINDO: Yeah, so the more we open up to all the different expressions of humanity, it only benefits us. LOUISE: It really does, and that’s such a lovely way of looking at it. We need to be really welcoming diversity in all areas, in all walks of life. It’s a totally different way of thinking. LINDO: And we do it not because it’s the right thing to do, but because there’s also…we benefit from it. It’s not that we’re helping other people… LOUISE: Yeah. It’s like, it’s evolution too, isn’t it? I few get rid of diversity in any ecosystem, it suffers. LINDO: Exactly. LOUISE: Bring in the glorious diversity and see what can happen. Can you tell us the story, because there’s this awesome story you tell in the book about the gym? LINDO: About the gym. Sure. You know, I haven’t read the book in a while, so I’m going to have to remember which of many stories…but I think it was going into the gym on a day that I was feeling particularly irritable. And there was a new guy that was checking everybody in. so, I do my fingerprint ID, I don’t know, maybe it was a phone ID…I don’t remember. Anyway, I guess my name pops up on the screen and he says, “have a good workout, Miss Bacon”. And it just bummed me out. Like, I had…I was going to the gym to kind of get in a better space. And to be hit right away with being misgendered, it just hit me hard and I kind of snapped at him. I don’t remember what I said. And he got all defensive and said, “that’s what the computer told him” and he was blaming it on the computer. LOUISE: The computer! LINDO: And also he couldn’t quite understand, like I looked like a woman to him, he didn’t understand wht he had gotten wrong. And unfortunately, we’re having this dispute and another worker walked up and was more sensitive, and was able to kind of get the guy to back down and explain that you can’t always know somebody’s gender identity by looking at them and we need to be open minded, and helped me through it. But then while I was working out at the gym, I was just obsessing on it. Iw as just so angry. This was just one more time when… LOUISE: it’s not the only thing, it’s another pain. LINDO: Exactly. Like, he triggered a lifetime of feeling misgendered. And it meant that I couldn’t let go of that, and it kind of spun out into somewhat of an anxiety attack. And anyway, I learned form that, right? And one of the ways I took back my power was by complaining at the gym and my…the end result of that was that they actually changed some of their policies, and that helped me to feel more empowered and respected. The fact that people adapt and change… LOUISE: That’s awesome, that’s such a massive change if out of one panic attack that message of pain in your body drove you into action. LINDO: Right. And another funny part of that story is that at first, just me protesting wasn’t getting far enough. So I just got together a few friends and we just made up a fake organisation. We called ourselves something like ‘Social Justice Advocacy Corps’ or something. LOUISE: Oh my God, that’s brilliant. LINDO: And we kind of threatened a social media callout. And I think the fear of something bigger was really what motivated them to listen. LOUISE: Really? Okay. 50:00 LINDO: So, I think that, that’s an important statement. Build communities so you can get support around this. LOUISE: Yeah, create an organisation. LINDO: Exactly, take it…if you can’t do it. LOUISE: Lean in, get a bit of pressure on them, because people these days might not respond to one person, but if you are a representative of an organisation or if you have social media… LINDO: And I think that more and more, they’re recognising that people are angry that trans folks don’t have equal rights. They’re angry at racism. So it now is a liability for a corporation to be seen in that light. LOUISE: Isn’t that cool? It’s no longer cool to be exclusionary and it has to be attended to. LINDO: So, we certainly have a long, long way of change ahead, but I think that the playing field’s a little bit different now. LOUISE: Yeah, well there’s strength in numbers, as you’re saying, and there’s an increased recognition. Isn’t it incredible to think about what the world might look like in another generation with this kind of change? It’s incredibly hopeful. LINDO: And I know that when I was a kid, I wasn’t even able to imagine ‘trans’ because I hadn’t ever seen a trans person that I was aware of. So, it didn’t even enter my mind as a possibility. But that’s not true of this next generation, at least the generation of kids that live in areas of the United Sates surrounded by that kind of imagery… LOUISE: The inclusion, yeah. LINDO: Kids are more able to find their gender identity and recognise it, it doesn’t have to be the one that was assigned to them at birth. There’s just a lot more creativity that’s possible. LOUISE: I know, exactly. I totally agree with that. I think it’s going to be just this source, amazing source of creativity. If people’s brains aren’t always bound up with that trauma and that kind of confusion, trying to stick yourself in a box that doesn’t fit, there’s so much ability to create and evolve. Yeah. There’s going to be so many cool things come out of this. Thank you for a wonderful conversation. Where can we get the book? It’s here in Australia now, I think. LINDO: Oh, it is? That’s exciting, because I think there was a little delay getting it to Australia. LOUISE: Thanks, Covid. LINDO: Covid-related problems. I’m pretty sure people can get it anywhere books are, these days. LOUISE: Yeah. And there’s an Audible version? LINDO: The Audible version comes out on February 15th, so it’s not out yet. LOUISE: But that’s only a few weeks’ time. And are you reading the book? LINDO: I am not. LOUISE: You’re not reading the book, okay. That’s okay. LINDO: But there is a really wonderful narrator, I spent days and days listening to people to come up with the perfect voice. LOUISE: Oh, how did you come up with that? What was the perfect voice for the book? LINDO: Oh, I wanted someone who could radiate compassion at the same time that they had passion, and really could find when to use one and when to use the other. LOUISE: Cool. LINDO: Yeah, there’s someone that’s really amazing that did it, so I feel good about it. LOUISE: That’s so good, I’m a big fan of Audible lately as reading in Covid for some reason has gotten really hard for lots of people. LINDO: I’m the same way, and I’m out going for walks a lot, and I just listen to books. LOUISE: This is a lovely book to listen to whilst walking, I’m definitely going to do that. LINDO: Excellent. Enjoy. Lovely talking with you. LOUISE: Thank you so much, you’re the best. Thanks. Well, I promised to give you an uplifting start to 2021, and there you are. You don’t get much more uplifting than Dr Lindo Bacon. Thank you so much, Lindo, for coming on and sharing your wonderful book and your vision of what we can achieve if we work together and work more on belonging and just how healing that is. Just a wonderful book, wonderful human. Go out and get it, everybody. And if you want to find out more about Lindo and all of the work they’re doing, head to lindobacon.com website or Instagram, @lindobacon, or on twitter @lindobacon. Some wonderful stuff that is coming out from Lindo, and some wonderful community work in relation to this book. So, go check out the website and find out more there. Okay, so we’re come to the end of the first podcast for 2021. I’m really enjoying myself talking to you, and I’m just really glad to be back. And I’m looking forward to our next episode, which will come out in a few weeks’ time. So, look after yourself, everyone. In the meantime, listen to your body. Think critically. Push back against diet culture. Untrap from the crap!    

It has been a little over a year since we started the podcast. Host and curator of the show Tobi Lawson is a guest on this episode - to talk about the philosophy behind the project and his opinions on many of the issues the show has discussed. You can rate us here. If you want to support our efforts in bringing you the thoughts of brilliant thinkers through these conversations, you can be a patron here.What our guests and listeners are saying…“Thank you so much…for doing this whole project where you’re capturing people’s thoughts and you’re contributing to knowledge and content. It’s extremely important. I cannot even overemphasize how important it is.” - Ayisha Osori, Executive Director, OSIWA“Your comments and views show a deep understanding of what’s happening around the world, what’s happening in Africa and these are not easy issues…” - Andrew Nevin, Chief Economist, PwC Nigeria“I loved chatting with Tobi about my research on Nigerian markets! Tobi has read more political science research than any non-political scientist I’ve met.” - Shelby Grossman, Political Scientist“If you like him, you’ll love his podcast series called, Ideas Untrapped.” - Affiong Williams, CEO Reelfruit“This is fantastic. A great synopsis of the current state of the Nigerian economy.” - Dr Kunle Olu-Nwankwo“Interested in Nigeria’s development? Binge Ideas Untrapped for perspective and smart insights.” - Ewoma Vese“Binged on all the interviews on this platform…” - U.F.O Frank“Good stuff. Thank you and the team for what you do.” - Semper Fidelis“If y’all are looking for a deep podcast, Tobi Lawson does it right! Brilliant and incisive interviews.” - JAYPEE“Lovely insights. Excellent work with questions from the host. I'm very impressed.” - Samuel Okocha“I just finished listening. Really insightful and educative + @tobi_lawson asked very interesting questions.” - Gbenga This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at www.ideasuntrapped.com/subscribe

Luke has a big landscaping company in my area and I spent some time at his shop, getting the tour and listening to his story. I don't often get the opportunity to pick the brain of big landscaping company owners. I know you will find some gold nuggets in this one! Check out the shop tour on YouTube. Subscribe and click the notification bell so you don't miss it when it comes out! LCR on YouTube Luke's Instagram LCR Merch

This is the first Episode of the LCR Media Podcast, with a season teaser at the end.  I sat down with John, Joe, and Hub in the hotel room that I shared with Paul Jamison from the Green Industry, at the Lawntrepreneur Academy Live 2020. We dicussed their experience in the snow management business and what it takes to be successful. Thanks for listening! Support the Show with Podcast Merch!

In this episode, I just went to a parking lot and just talked about life. What life is all about, my struggles, how I reached my ambitions. It is not easy, man, it is not easy to be me. You might see me now, as a successful YouTube Vlogger and Podcaster / Entrepreneur. But the path through it, man I tell you. It is rough. But despite all of that, I strive. I reached my goal. So, the lesson to be kept here, my friend. Don't waste your time. Reach for your goal, while you still have time. While you still can! Let's Dive in.    "This is when you live in equanimity and abundance. You're mindful. And over here, it's really about managing opportunity. There's so much opportunity that you have developed a whole new skill set of learning how to manage opportunity overwhelmed, because that's the real truth, right? Because what got you here won't get you there, what got you here won't get you there. In order to get there, you got to let go of a lot of this shit."  - Keith Kalfas   Topics Covered:    00:28 - We keep on hustling for more jobs because we want to succeed so fast. But what we don't know by getting more jobs we are becoming more stressed and anxious until we're exhausted.  Because we work ourselves to the bone. We tend to just give up. This is not a good strategy, my friend   3:22 -  Don't let toxic people and old thoughts control you. If you will live with this past it will only pull you down.   5:18 - When you come up to your senses. You will learn how to say, NO. This two-letter word will set your boundary for yourself.    6:54 - When you started to say NO. You are now living with equanimity and abundance, that means, you're already mindful. And that is a good start because that is about managing opportunities. Stop hanging out with people who only put you down and direct you in a negative direction.    8:53 - Move on and continue to live, forgive people who hurt you, let go. As soon as you've done that, assess yourself. You will realize that you've reached your self-development and it is now easier to gravitate upward.    12:52 - It's not wrong to set a role model, to be inspired. But, if you're finding yourself comparing yourself to anybody. Stop that now! That will not pull you up from where you are sitting right now. What you need to do is get up and do something with your life and improve yourself.  Key Takeaways:    “What's holding you back? The past negative people, toxic people, toxic old thoughts and stories and bullshit going all the way back down to your childhood and old pathologies in your brain that doesn't even make sense?”    “But when you do little by little, you can build these healthy boundaries where you begin to say, NO, somebody, friend or family member wants to call you up and dump all their bullshit on you or suck you into a victim story, or guilt-trip you. NO, NO. A client wants to call you up and get all dramatic. Oh, how about, how they want you to come right now? And they don't even pay you that well? They want you to. They want "Can you be there? Can you be there tomorrow?" I usually say, yes.  NO. You're not afraid anymore. In the world of scarcity, you live where you always feel like any minute the rug is gonna get pulled out from underneath you any minute.”    “They're watching you. It's your job to be a leader. And what is the definition of confidence? Competence is really just your belief and your own ability to figure things out.”   “Forgive people, anybody who hurt you, let go, move on. And then when you let go of like 80% of all that baggage, you realize that 20% of the rest of the self-development is literally just like a walk in the park. It's not a walk in the park, but it's way easier to gravitate upward when you let go of all the baggage, right?”  Connect with Keith  Facebook Instagram  YouTube LinkedIn Website   Get your FREE Trial of JOBBER here.  https://jobber.grsm.io/keithkalfas8521 DISCLAIMER: This description contains affiliate links. If you buy something, I earn a small percentage.... Get a FREE Trial of JOBBER Software & save 20% for the first 6 months. https://jobber.grsm.io/keithkalfas8521 If you liked the show please leave us a well written positive 5-star review. You may click here The Transcript   (Note: This transcript was created using Otter, an AI transcription software.  Please forgive any transcription or grammatical errors.  We probably sounded better in real life.)   Introduction  0:06   Hey, my friend, what's up? It's Keith Kalfas. And before we dive into this episode, I just want to say, sometimes when I record these podcasts, I'm outside. I'm on a job site, I'm on the go. So I apologize if you hear any background noises or anything going on. And let's jump into the show.   We keep on hustling for more jobs because we want to succeed so fast. But what we don't know, by getting more jobs we are becoming more stressed and anxious until we're exhausted.  Because we work ourselves to the bone. We tend to just give up. This is not a good strategy, my friend 00:28 So I've been thinking about why do we work so hard? Why are we so ambitious and we're always, I call pulling the shit string of the avalanche of all their responsibilities. We keep taking on more, and we want to be successful, so bad, and been thinking about this and it's because we don't want to live in regret. Right? But the more we move forward, and the more things we take on is the more stress and anxiety the more responsibilities where we feel rushed in so many things on our schedule. We're like anxious to get it all done and we're exhausted, we work ourselves to the bone.  1:04  But it's really because we don't want to live in regret. And the worst thing is to, just give up and be lazy and let go and be apathetic and just not care and relax. And ah, that's like torture to me. I remember Joe Rogan, one time, he said something interesting. He's talking about if he lays around on the couch and relaxes, it's torture to him. But if he went out and worked his ass off and accomplished like a whole bunch of stuff, and then he relaxes on the couch, it's pure bliss. Because he earned it, right? Like I just really think that I can feel time going by so fast that the days are just whipping by and it's the weekend again, it's the weekend, it's the weekend then the year then it's Christmas and then it's your birthday again with it in these years are flying by and take it for me like I'm straight 37 now and I just watched seven years fly by so fast. 1:58  So it happens is I hope it happens sooner than later for you, you start becoming very familiar with your own mortality. Like you can see your gravestone coming sooner and faster than you think. And you start looking around, like- if you ever run into clients, or customers or people you haven't seen in a few years, you start oh my God, you're literally watching them get older in front of you. You're watching this happen. And then your time is ticking right now. tic tac, tic tac, tic tac, I can feel the clock just beating over me. And what type of legacy are you going to leave? What do you, what are you going to do with your life right now? While you had this beautiful opportunity? Do you understand how lucky you are if you have your health, your arms, your legs, your fingers, your toes? If you even have the ability and the freedom to go out and make things happen right now because tomorrow you might not? So these little micro-moments of free time just for me to be standing in this parking lot right now is the ultimate freedom to spread my wings and do something with my life. What are you gonna do with your life? 3:06  What are you going to do with your life? And then the next thing is not what you're gonna do because motivation only takes you so far. What the f** Are you gonna stop doing it? Right? You can't move forward. If you're in chains stuck, right? People think it's funny how I get all animated but that's how I really feel, right?    Don't let toxic people and old thoughts control you. If you will live with this past it will only pull you down. What's holding you back? The past negative people, toxic people, toxic old thoughts and stories and bullshit going all the way back down to your childhood and old pathologies in your brain that doesn't even make sense? I was thinking about this if you had like, I'm not saying you, but maybe you had like dramatic parents or something when you were a little kid you witnessed them freaking out being overdramatized about some petty shit, right? They were majoring on minor things all the time and you grew up thinking everything's a catastrophe. So now you have this inner anxiousness about a little shit. I got that. I was thinking oh my God when you were like a kid, your parents were Probably like in their 20s they're like barely coming out of being teenagers themselves. They probably weren't even that fucking mature enough to even have their shit together yet. I don't know what your story is. But all I want to say is a lot of the shit we earned learned in our formative years from other people. 4:15 And the way this the 95% rule 95% of people are all thinking alike. They're in the 95% income group, and there's a 95% chance that 95% of everything you know, comes from people in the 95% income group, therefore, you're a 95 percenter. But as the pendulum swings and you get to like you look, once in a while you get to be around high achievers and high performers, that people that got a bunch of f*** money, that doesn't really mean a lot. I'm talking to people that have a holistic life, a balanced life that is truly successful. And you get around these people that are high performers, and then you go back home and you get around the people you're normally used to being around or the negative people that try to suck your energy and you're like, what? Like it's really possible. You really can live the life that you always dream of living because there are people that are living it. And when you get around those people that rub off on you, and then you go back and you go, "Wait for a second, this doesn't make any sense." I thought this was the only way. But it's not. It's just a way and it's hard to let go and un-adapt some of those fictions and some of those false realities and stories in your brain.   When you come up to your senses. You will learn how to say, NO. This two-letter word will set your boundary for yourself.    5:18  But when you do little by little, you can build these healthy boundaries where you begin to say, NO, somebody, friend or family member wants to call you up and dump all their bullshit on you or suck you into a victim story, or guilt-trip you. NO, NO. A client wants to call you up and get all dramatic. Oh, how about, how they want you to come right now? And they don't even pay you that well? They want you to. They want "Can you be there? Can you be there tomorrow?" I usually say, yes.  NO. You're not afraid anymore. In the world of scarcity, you live where you always feel like any minute the rug is gonna get pulled out from underneath you any minute. You're going to lose everything, any minute you're going to be in a tailspin, you're caught in the swirl. So you run around in a reactive state. Just the Sympathetic Nervous System in the amygdala are firing and you're keeping, they're keeping you with fight or flight mode. But over here is a world of abundance.   Advertisement: 6:08    More of the untrapped podcast continues right after this.    Guys if you need help, being more organized in being perceived as a professional to your clients and prospective customers, then you get to checkout jobber. Jobber is an awesome software that you can run your entire service business on. You can create invoices, quotes, estimates, work orders, it integrates with your calendar, you can collect money, you can run your whole business on jobber and grow with it as well. Get your 14 days free trial of jobber at KiethKalfas.com/Jobber. I use jobber in my business and it's awesome.   And now here's Keith.   When you started to say NO. You are now living with equanimity and abundance, that means, you're already mindful. And that is a good start because that is about managing opportunities. Stop hanging out with people who only put you down and direct you in a negative direction.   6:54   This is when you live in equanimity and abundance. You're mindful. And over here, it's really about managing opportunity. There's so much opportunity that you have developed a whole new skill set of learning how to manage opportunity overwhelmed, because that's the real truth, right? Because what got you here won't get you there, what got you here won't get you there. In order to get there, you got to let go of a lot of this shit. And sometimes that means spending less time with people used to love. I'm not saying get rid of family members but, you can love them, but you don't have to like them, right? I spend less time with them consciously and maybe Catch him. Catch them at their best. And what I mean by that is spend time with people more sparingly, much less than if they suck your energy completely. And they're that negative and put up the boundary. And you might have to stop spending time with them altogether and cut them out of your life and it's a hard thing to do. cutting all those strings. The environment is key. Keep cutting those strings. And the more you do that, imagine like a hot air balloon wants to move up but all these strings to sandbags are connected.  8:01   And before you can go up, sometimes all you got to do is just start cutting all the strings. Little by little, it starts breaking free, and then you just naturally gravitate to this whole new place. And because you change your environment, the people you associate with any old negative or bad habits that you had, here's another thing that works well. Go and purge, go through your clothes, your closets, your shoes, all your shit. If you have stuff you've been holding on to since seventh grade like literally get angry and get some big ass garbage bags and go donate all that shit or throw it on the curb and get shit out of your life. Get rid of all the old baggage and all the little things. You got the stupid things and like, a long time ago when it's just sitting on your dresser, throw in the fucking garbage dude, get rid of all of it.   Move on and continue to live, forgive people who hurt you, let go. As soon as you've done that, assess yourself. You will realize that you've reached your self-development and it is now easier to gravitate upward.   8:53   Forgive people, anybody who hurt you, let go, move on. And then when you let go of like 80% of all that baggage, you realize that 20% of the rest of the self-development is literally just like a walk in the park. It's not a walk in the park, but it's way easier to gravitate upward when you let go of all the baggage, right? Getting around successful people is another this is a huge part. I wish I would have said this at the beginning of the video. It's not okay. It's not okay to "not be successful" if you want to be. When I go to these mastermind events, and I get around these seven-figure earners. Like, it's not okay to do less than seven figures a year. Like it's not even acceptable. Like, it doesn't even make any sense that you would not work it out and have communication with your spouse, your girlfriend, your fiance, your wife, and have a real conversation and move forward.  9:46    It doesn't make sense that you would let this person walk all over you and get in the way of you living your dreams. It doesn't even make any sense that you would let your own negative baggage and bullshit in your victim stories in your head trash and be a bitch to stop you. Why would you select yourself, stop yourself from being who you really want to be, and be successful? Why would you do that to yourself? Time is clicking and moving by very quickly. And the next thing is, dude, I'm on the phone. My buddy Joshua Latimer. He said this to me. He goes, "Are you serious right now, Keith? Are you still telling me this story? Are we seriously gonna be on the phone again the same exact time next year, and you're still gonna be going through the same old problem? Are you kidding me right now?  I'm not even going to have this conversation with you. Like sick of it."  10:37   Are you seriously gonna keep having the same fucking thoughts and conversations and stupid ass petty problems? Next year's you're having right f**  now. Are you f***  kidding me? Who is the role model that you are being to all the people that are watching you, all the people who you love and they love you? Because they're watching you. There are people watching that you don't even know. But especially the people that you love, it is your responsibility to be a role model. See, when you are advancing forward in the destiny of your dreams in the direction of your dreams and your destiny, and you are moving forward confidently. Other people are watching and that inspires them to step up and want to move confidently. They're following you. They're watching you. It's your job to be a leader. And what is the definition of confidence? competence is really just your belief and your own ability to figure things out.  11:33    You believe in it, you believe you can figure it out. I don't like to talk about myself too much. But, in the last three years, four years, I've literally watched a lot of my wildest dreams come true. I remember being a broke kid, riding a bike, riding a bus. We lived in homeless shelters. You've heard me say my mother died of a heroin overdose. I've ridden the city bus. I've lived in 34 homes. I've had like 32 jobs, and I slept on people's couches growing up around drug and alcohol abuse. I was physically abused as a child. And to go through all that and grow up with all these self-limiting beliefs, and I remember being in my mid-20s being such a f**  wuss being afraid to step out and take any chances and do anything because I didn't believe I was good enough. And here I am today, living my dreams. You got to say if it's meant to be, it's up to me. If it's meant to be, it's up to me. Go out and find the people. Get around the people who are doing, being in having what you want to do being happy in your life, and it'll start to rub off on you and get the f** away from anybody who's dragging you down, like ASAP, right now and comparing yourself to other people. That's a recipe for disaster.   It's not wrong to set a role model, to be inspired. But, if you're finding yourself comparing yourself to anybody. Stop that now! That will not pull you up from where you are sitting right now. What you need to do is get up and do something with your life and improve yourself.     12:52    I say if you find yourself scrolling through Instagram or looking at social media, comparing yourself to anybody, you need to literally slap yourself in the hand, put your phone down, and just get out there and hustle and make a plan. Because time's moving by really, really quickly. And you will wake up next year and be in the same fucking spot, you will wake up in five years and have gone nowhere with your life. And that's not okay. It's not okay. I'm out.  13:21   Alright, guys, thank you so much for listening to The Untrapped Podcast, please share this episode with somebody you think it will create value for. And we're quickly moving up the rankings and iTunes in the category of Entrepreneurship. So if you could please just take a quick moment to click the link below or just go to the iTunes store and type in Untrapped podcast and please take a moment to leave us a well written positive five-star review. It would mean so much and it really really helps the show. And as always, you can go to my website, Keith kalfas.com to learn more. Or you can go to my podcast page on www.keithkalfas.com/podcast. All right, I'll see you in the next episode.

Ever thought about how big a role food plays in dating and relationships?For someone with an eating disorder like anorexia, binge eating or bulimia, that thought is inescapable.We look at how to navigate eating disorders in relationships, learn how to date again and reclaim sexuality.If this episode brings up any issues for you, you can find help at the resources below.Butterfly National Helpline - 1800 33 4673Chat to someone online - butterfly.org.auLifeline - 13 11 14National Eating Disorders Collaboration - https://www.nedc.com.au/support-and-services-2/support-and-services/

Ever thought about how big a role food plays in dating and relationships? For someone with an eating disorder like anorexia, binge eating or bulimia, that thought is inescapable. We look at how to navigate eating disorders in relationships, learn how to date again and reclaim sexuality. If this episode brings up any issues for you, you can find help at the resources below. Butterfly National Helpline - 1800 33 4673 Chat to someone online - butterfly.org.au Lifeline - 13 11 14 National Eating Disorders Collaboration - https://www.nedc.com.au/support-and-services-2/support-and-services/

Ever thought about how big a role food plays in dating and relationships? For someone with an eating disorder like anorexia, binge eating or bulimia, that thought is inescapable. We look at how to navigate eating disorders in relationships, learn how to date again and reclaim sexuality. If this episode brings up any issues for you, you can find help at the resources below. Butterfly National Helpline - 1800 33 4673 Chat to someone online - butterfly.org.au Lifeline - 13 11 14 National Eating Disorders Collaboration - https://www.nedc.com.au/support-and-services-2/support-and-services/

In today's episode Keith Kalfas goes deep about knowing your worth in life and business.  Rate Increase Letter https://www.echo-usa.com E-Course: Lawn & Landscape 101 Gulf Coast Bookkeeping The Hardscape Academy

Why Your First Customers Probably Took Advantage of You. This Weird Yet Powerful Epiphany I had While Working Today   To get my free 7 Steps to marketing your business. Text the work "Untrapped" to 31996.

Why You Should Be Brutally Honest with Your Customers. (Selling and Communication Skills) with Keith Kalfas

https://www.instagram.com/random_axe/

Jon discusses Yo Gotti’s 10th album Untrapped.

Host of the Fullerton Unfiltered Podcast, Brian Fullerton, joins Paul Jamison as they talk about the Corona virus and its effects on small business owners. They also talked about entrepreneurship, marriage (sex), goal setting, money, and much much more. Lawntrepreneur Academy How To Install Pavers Try Jobber

Brad Behr sat down to chat with Paul Jamison at the 2020 Lawn and Landscape Society hosted by Kohler. Brad has a unique story of how he went from retirement to begin his entrepreneur journey by starting a lawn care business. He also has a You Tube channel with 53,000 subscribers Try Jobber How To Install Pavers How To Hardscape Podcast

Coach Carroll is a renowned international presenter that has delivered his high energy message to 100's of thousands of people both virtually and in person. As well as a seasoned entrepreneur at just 31 years old, having taken part in over a dozen merger and acquisitions. His work can be found in various trade publications as well as on Inc.com. Author of Phenomenal Phone Calls and creator of the Hustle. It's Worth It brand, he comes from blue collar, humble beginnings. Dyslexic, Carroll knows that everyone has something holding them back, but encourages "You have to believe in yourself, when no one else does!" YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/salescoachdj Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dj_carroll LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dj-carroll-65589b21

Jared from JC's Lawn Tips is not your average 19 year old. He started his lawn care company in the summer of his 8th grade year and has not looked back. Paul and Jared recorded this episode at the Lawn Care and Landscape Society event hosted by Kohler.  Try Jobber How To Install Pavers How To Hardscape Podcast

This week, the iLLogical gang recap the Wilder vs. Fury rematch (4:27), as well as the emotional celebration of life ceremony for Kobe & GiGi Bryant (15:03). Later, the guys pay their respects to Pop Smoke (37:52), recap Crooked I's interview with Eminem (50:58), what direction Def Jam should take after Paul Rosenberg's departure (1:06:19), try to understand why LL Cool J is so mad (1:24:31), the Lovers & Friends Fest lineup (1:30:50), a debate about where Jhene Aiko is ranked (1:41:37), and much more! This week's music reviews include Royce da 5'9”'s 'The Allegory,' Kamaiyah's ‘Got it Made,' NBA Youngboy's 'Still Flexin, Still Steppin,' Denzel Curry's & Kenny Beats' ‘Unlocked' & Yo Gotti's ‘Untrapped.'

On episode 1 of Holly's Hit or Miss, I talk about Lil Wayne's new album “Funeral” & Yo Gotti's new album “Untrapped”, along with why I took a 2 year hiatus

Kris Kiser is the President of the Outdoor Power Equipment Institute. Kris joined Paul on the Green Industry Podcast to share some updates about the 2020 GIE+EXPO, OPEI 68th annual meeting, Mutt Maddness, and some of the exciting new technology in the robotic mowers space. Get Jobber Ring Lawn Care Gulf Coast Bookkeeping How To Hardscape Podcast How To Install Pavers 

In episode 192, we get down and dirty with the latest in hip-hop on That Boom Bap. We get into this newest track from Royce the 5'9 and Benny The Butcher, Upside Down. We also discuss Drake's partnership with Caffeine and goal to bring the URL over to the streaming platform. Royce and Benny the Butcher have a banger with Upside Down. Plus, we review the latest album from Yo Gotti, "Untrapped". All this and a whole lot more on that #BoomBap. Full Episode: http://www.thesphere.tv/boombap/192 Exclusive Boom Bap Content: https://www.patreon.com/boombapofficial That Boom Bap Winter 2020 Playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5dMR7OTd9DGg7oEzUmARYk Articles Referenced: https://youtu.be/5GnQmBu-IXQ https://hiphopdx.com/news/id.54535/title.the-roots-picnic-2020-to-feature-meek-mill-dababy-griselda-ghostface-raekwon-more https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2020/2/11/21131381/drake-partnership-caffeine-ultimate-rap-league-streaming

In episode 192, we get down and dirty with the latest in hip-hop on That Boom Bap. We get into this newest track from Royce the 5'9 and Benny The Butcher, Upside Down. We also discuss Drake's partnership with Caffeine and goal to bring the URL over to the streaming platform. Royce and Benny the Butcher have a banger with Upside Down. Plus, we review the latest album from Yo Gotti, "Untrapped". All this and a whole lot more on that #BoomBap. Full Episode: http://www.thesphere.tv/boombap/192 Exclusive Boom Bap Content: https://www.patreon.com/boombapofficial That Boom Bap Winter 2020 Playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5dMR7OTd9DGg7oEzUmARYk Articles Referenced: https://youtu.be/5GnQmBu-IXQ https://hiphopdx.com/news/id.54535/title.the-roots-picnic-2020-to-feature-meek-mill-dababy-griselda-ghostface-raekwon-more https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2020/2/11/21131381/drake-partnership-caffeine-ultimate-rap-league-streaming

This is a milestone episode, Paul shares about his journey from a vision he had in Illinois to start to show to how they reached the 100 episode mark.  Links to Sponsors Products: How To Install Pavers Try Jobber How To Hardscape Podcast   

On this episode, the wiseguys start the show off discussing the Megan Thee Stallion/G-Eazy drama, their involvement in the upcoming ‘Creating in Color' event on 2/22 in Washington, DC, the best time to get a haircut, the 90 Day Fiance show, whether they should create a relationship segment...then the music reviews begin! REST IN PEACE Kobe Bryant! Did Lil Wayne add to or take away from his legacy with the release of his new ‘Funeral' album? (17:17). Was Russ able to finally get out of his own way with his new ‘Shake The Snow Globe' or does he have more personal demons to bury? (32:00). Yo Gotti is ‘Untrapped'...and we love it! (47:17). Should 2 Chainz take his T.R.U. collective back to the drawing board after the release of ‘No Face No Case'? (58:25). Apparently, Pop Smoke wants us to meet the Woo again on ‘Meet The Woo 2'...but what the hell is a “Woo”? No - seriously? LOL. (75:24). We think it's finally time for Brent Faiyaz to shine after he issues a ‘FUCK THE WORLD' love letter to us all! (85:18). On the ILL and the NOT so advised segment (93:00), the guys discuss a few new hot and struggle singles from Trippie Redd and Young Thug, Justin Bieber and Quavo, Tory Lanez, Nicki Minaj and Meek Mill just to name a few! On the Ill-advised thoughts...Uchay: 10 years after dropping ‘Exhibit C', Jay Electronica “claims” his debut album will be released in 40 days (147:35). QD: Billie Eilish faces backlash for her “truthful” comments on the lies rappers tell in their music (155:21). #musicreview #illadvisedwiseguys #DreamVizionNetwork Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-ill-advised-wise-guys/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Giving my take on Yo Gotti and Lil Wayne's. Recent release albums the funeral and untrapped --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/hardmonei/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/hardmonei/support

On this episode we talk about Lil Wayne and the career, influence and impact he’s has had over hip hop we play some of our fave songs and favorite songs by him we talk about his new album Funeral what should he do next time he’s in the studio and who he should bring with him in the studio . D.N.A. Recaps his interview with Naomi G we talk about how important it was for her to be on the show and other episodes moving forward also how women should & will be more appreciated in music hip hop & R&B. We discuss the Mase & Diddy situation we review Yo Gotti new album Untrapped. Kuda Buggin reviews Key Glock’s new album Yellow Tape and much much more.D.N.A Twitter & Instagram : @_whatwhoisdna —————————————————— Kuda Buggin Twitter: @KudaBuggin—————————————————Instagram: @kudabuggin ——————————————————-——————————————————-Follow Cold HARD Facts podcast on Twitter: @Coldhardfactspc ————————Instagram: @coldhardfactspc

0:00 - 1:12 Sookie & Lap Gawd Freestyle Random zombie discussion. This week on the Hip-Hop Shrink Podcast the guys discuss "Funeral", "It Was Unwritten", "Untrapped", "Yellow Tape", and "The Real Testament II". Nicki Minaj's brother gets 25 to life, Kobe & Gigi pass in a helicopter crash, and the Caronavirus.  

Join hosts Kylo Ri, DJ Lloyd Willin', Deuce Touché, and David Roughin as they discuss Meg and G Eazy's "Kiss" Session, All things Super Bowl 2020, The Corona Virus Update, Chicago Mom Murdered Over Life Insurance Money, Postal Worker Decides Not to Deliver Mail, Key Glock's "Yellow Tape, Lil Wayne's "Funeral", Luke Jame's "To Feel Love/d", Russ's "Shake the Snow Globe", Yo Gotti's "Untrapped", Terry Crews's Public Apology to Gabrielle Union, Gervonta Davis's Abusive Behavior, Kobe's Tribute at Staples Center, the NFL's Latest Hall of Fame Inductees, and much more! #Blessthebottle Season 4 Episode 25 features an exclusive interview with Calument City Rapper, Eli!. Tune in as he discusses his upcoming project "First Take", the inspiration behind his music, REN's origin story, and why "First Take" will make an immediate impact on today's Rap Game. Outro Track - "Clean" by Eli! off of Eli!'s "First Take" DOWNLOAD. LISTEN. WELCOME TO THE PREGAME. For All Things PreGame Podcast visit livefromthepregame.com

This episode begins with a Keith Kalfas studio takeover. Keith hosts the #Untrapped Podcast and broke into Paul's studio that was set up at the Lawn Care Life Conference and recorded a special message for to Green Industry Podcast listeners.  Paul and Mr. Producer also have a family meeting talking about some industry news and vision for the future of this show.  Try Jobber! How to Install Pavers Gulf Coast Bookkeeper Ring Lawn Care

#BanginOnLunchTables Wayne Makes Air Force 1 Lows! RIP Kobe and Gigi Bryant - 1:30 Ma$e wants back pay from Diddy - 16:42 - Jonez sounds off - Let's look from Puff's angle - Diddy got like 4 Grammy's and 1997 was HIS regardless! 50 Cent gets star on Hollywood Walk of Fame - 40:09 New Music Kevin Ross "Audacity Vol.1" - 44:38 Yo Gotti "Untrapped" - 45:38 Key Glock "Yellow Tape" - 48:52 Russ "Shake the Globe" - 51:02 - Jonez Culture concerns - Who is Russ comparable to from the 2000's/2010's? Lil Wayne "Funeral" - 1:05:34 - Jonez gives his critique - Cam is giving a response not a critique - We done telling rappers what WE want or nah? Final Words - 1:28:56 Fakeshore Drive's "Best Chipmunk Sample" questions - Jonez Playlist - Champions isn't Top 20 anymore Do you Sh*t!

IT'S A PLEASURE TO HAVE OUR FRIEND YO GOTTI BACK IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, ESPECIALLY WITH UNTRAPPED COMING OUT TODAY! MORE ON WHAT TO EXPECT FROM THE ALBUM AND NEW MUSIC WITH LIL BABY, SO YOU WON'T WANT TO MISS WHEN YO GOTTI IS IN BIG BOY'S NEIGHBORHOOD!

In this episode of ENDS Podcast, we take a look at 2 singles from Yo Gotti "Untrapped" Album. This is Yo Gotti latest album since dropping "I Still Am" in 2017 About Yo Gotti is an American rapper from Memphis, Tennessee. In 1996, Gotti released his debut album Youngsta's On a Come Up under the alias Lil Yo. He went on to release From Da Dope Game 2 Da Rap Game (2000), Self-Explanatory (2001), Life (2003), Back 2 da Basics (2006), Live from the Kitchen (2012), I Am (2013), The Art of Hustle (2016), I Still Am (2017) and Untrapped (2020). Listen to Yo Gotti with Apple here https://geo.music.apple.com/us/artist/yo-gotti/62763238?mt=1&app=music&at=1000l35jt --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/ends-media-llc/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/ends-media-llc/support

IT'S A PLEASURE TO HAVE OUR FRIEND YO GOTTI BACK IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, ESPECIALLY WITH UNTRAPPED COMING OUT TODAY! MORE ON WHAT TO EXPECT FROM THE ALBUM AND NEW MUSIC WITH LIL BABY, SO YOU WON'T WANT TO MISS WHEN YO GOTTI IS IN BIG BOY'S NEIGHBORHOOD!

Yo Gotti - Untrapped

At Jason Creel's 2020 Lawn Care Life Conference Paul Jamison sat down and chatted about life, Gary Vee, and You Tube with Allyn Hane, aka the Lawn Care Nut, and Keith Kalfas.  Allyn Hane hosts Lawns Across America podcast and Keith Kalfas is also a podcaster. Keith Kalfas podcast is the #Untrapped Podcast. This was a rare, fun, and inspiring conversation with a couple of the leading influencers in the lawn care and landscaping community.  How To Install Pavers Try Jobber! Ring Lawn Care 

Brian Fullerton started his lawn care and landscaping business back in April of 2007, with nothing more than a dream and a desire to accomplish more. Stuck in a dead end job working for a fertilizer company, with little prospects for job advancement and no college degree to fall back on, he decided to go all in with a business of his own. Safe to say the journey that followed would be one of victories and defeats, successes and failures. But through it all and despite the circumstances, he came out on top with a successful business of his own. Brian's Lawn Maintenance Links: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-rcXs51R_ezTebXtx7dAZQ Instagram: https://instagram.com/brianslawnmaintenance  

On this episode of the Green Industry Podcast, host, Paul Jamison continues to shares his takeaways from his experience at Brian Fullerton's Lawntrepreneur Academy Live Event. Paul went in depth about knowing your worth and shared some other insights from what he learned from Keith Kalfas speech at the event.  Show Notes Links: Get Jobber! How To Install Pavers Lawn Care Life Conference

This episodes includes more takeaways from the Lawntrepreneur Academy Live hosted by Brian Fullerton in Michigan. Paul Jamison breaks down his key takeaways from Caleb Auman and Jason Creel's speeches at the event. Some of the topics discussed in this episode are knowing your worth, being willing to say no, bottom line profitability, and knowing your numbers. Links: Get Jobber How to Install Pavers Jason Creel's Conference Sign Up

Keith Kalfas of the Untrapped Podcast, and Shawn Spencer from Spencer's Lawn Care, and Paul Jamison hung out at the hotel in Michigan after Brian Lawn Maintenance's Lawntrepreneur Academy Live event. The conversation lasted well over two hours. Keith, Shawn, and Paul talked about boundaries, marriage, money stories, and got into some deep conversations about life.  Show's Sponsor Links: How to Install Pavers Try Jobber!

Untrapped Podcast w Curt Kempton from Responsibid | Sales Automation

What do you do with your hair down there? Maybe you pluck it, maybe you wax it, maybe you've lasered it all off… But why are we so obsessed with removing our pubes, and has it always been this way? Nat tackles those questions and learns how everyone can embrace whatever landscaping they choose … and how to deal if a partner can't get around it.

The Fast Track Trial is a trial in Australia that is being done to determine the efficacy of intermittent fasting for weight loss in teens. My amazing guest, Louise Adams, has spent the last year actively trying to get the trial stopped because it is unethical. The connection between dieting, especially fasting, and the development of eating disorders is quite strong. This is particularly concerning in relation to young people. She has collected studies, letters of support from medical professionals and organizations in Australia, as well as over 20,000 signatures from around the world on a change.org petition opposing the trial. Unfortunately, her efforts have been unsuccessful and the trial is proceeding. Content Warning: This episode includes information about fasting, eating disorders, weight change, and a brief discussion of normal adolescent weight gain. In this episode, we discuss: A bit about who Louise is and how she started working with eating disorders and the HAES movement A description of the Fast Track Trial Reasons why dieting can lead to eating disorders, particularly in teens How Louise has been fighting against the trial going forward What risks are not being fully explained to participants What the initial results of an initial study mean in practical terms Who the people behind the trial are And much more! Resources: Untrapped website FB group for Stop the Fast Track Trial Parent information for the Fast Track Trial  That Time I Was in a Child Weight Loss Study link:  About Louise: Louise Adams is a clinical psychologist, the founder of Treat Yourself Well Sydney and the creator of the UNTRAPPED online program and community. She has written two books, Mindful Moments and The Non-Diet Approach Handbook for Psychologist and Counsellors (with Fiona Willer, APD). She has been practicing in this field for more than 20 years. Louise is Vice President of Health At Every Size Australia. She has a special interest in problematic eating, body image, and weight struggles. Louise fights to educate people about the cruel trap of dieting, which only sets us up to fail. She uses an evidence-based anti-dieting approach to empower people to achieve permanent lifestyle change. Louise is wholly committed to the Heath At Every Size (HAES) movement, and to spreading the word about shifting our attitudes about weight and health. Louise is determined to make a difference in changing society’s perceptions about health, diets, weight loss, and bodies. Louise believes that people can approach health and happiness without attaching it to weight changes. She is for body diversity and against fat prejudice. As well as her work with individual clients at her private practice, Louise conducts workshops and conferences for the general public and health professionals interested in changing their approach to weight issues. Louise is the host of the popular podcast All Fired Up!, and often turns up in magazines, newspapers, radio, and on television to spread her message. She blogs, she tweets, and she never shuts up about these issues!

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Self Employed & Marriage Tips [REAL TALK] Untrapped Podcast Entrepreneur Relationships    

landscaping How to crush it in lawn care & landscaping business. a few helpful tips from a pro on the Untrapped podcast. Brian's Lawn Maintenance "Creating Insane Route Density ► How I Did It ► Yardbooks How To On Building Customizable Routes" on YouTube https://youtu.be/It4qSt6lDRU How to crush it in lawn care with Brian. https://youtu.be/ohPQlgdMU48 facebook http://facebook.com/thelandscapingemp... Twitter http://twitter.com/theemployeetrap Instagram-http://instagram.com/keithkalfas Website http://www.KeithKalfas.com Send me mail: Keith Kalfas 13854 Lakeside Circle Suite #233 Sterling Heights , MI 48313 #lawncare #landscaping #untrapped

Welcome to the All Fired Up Second Annual Crappy Awards! In this nail biting episode, we hear rants from people all over the world who are letting us know their thoughts on the sh*ttiest diet culture trend for 2018. Hilary Smith, social justice warrior, pole dancer AND winner of last years’ Inaugural Crappy awards, is here to judge the contestants, and my goodness it’s a stiff competition! Pour yourself a drink and get ready to be utterly gobsmacked by the utter diet culture bullsh*t delivered in 2018!   Show Notes It’s time for the 2nd annual Crappy Awards show! Thank you to everybody who submitted their audio rants, we have a very high standard of entries this year! And it is fantastic to have applications from listeners as well as non-diet health professionals. What was the worst, most irritating diet culture trend for 2018? I am joined by last year’s Crappy Award winner, Hilary Smith, who has kindly agreed to come on the show to judge this years entrants and crown the new winner! Hilary will judge each nomination according to Creativity, Quality of the Argument, Passion, and Number of Swear Words. Louise needed to have a little rant about her pet peeve for 2018, the f*cking intermittent fasting craze, with a special mention to Michael Mosely for expanding the spread of such bullsh*t. And to all of the health professionals and researchers pretending that this stupidity is the key to long lasting, effective weight loss, Louise says SCREW YOU! Crappy Award Nominee #1, from New Zealand’s Tania Vincent from Thrive Nutrition: A horrific facebook ad for a fat shaming phone app, using cute little cartoon characters to sell calorie control. Crappy Award Nominee #2, from listener Jade Pettersen: After having gastric surgery, it seems like your body becomes public property! And the support groups online are like breeding grounds for eating disorders! Crappy Award Nominee #3, from listener Ava: Louise reads a heartfelt email about how the weight loss surgery business model is targeting vulnerable people. A good friend of Ava’s was encouraged to take out her superannuation to pay for the surgery, even though her friend has significant mental health issues. Ethics anyone? Crappy Award Nominee #4, from Mind Body Well psychologist Janet Lowndes: The incredibly unethical “Fast Track to Health” trial being run here in Sydney and Melbourne, where adolescents are being  put on intermittent fasting diets for an entire year, in spite of the lack of efficacy for this type of diet. This is just a recipe for an eating disorder, and it is equally heart breaking and enraging that it’s allowed to proceed! Crappy Award Nominee #5, from Heather Eisman all the way from Alaska!: The “Bright Lines Eating” program by Susan Peirce Thompson, a horrendous example of monetising the 12 step programs and increasing restrictive thinking in people who already have eating issues. Crappy Award Nominee #6, from UNTRAPPED member Alyssa: Unsolicited health advice from thin people who think they are doctors. Crappy Award Nominee #7, also from Alyssa: The Cookie Diet - almost no words! Crappy Award Nominee #8, from Anna Hearn from Haven Wellness: The entire diet culture and its relentless toxicity, in particular this idea (incorrect) that we can all ‘choose’ our own body weight. Not supported by science! Crappy Award Nominee #9, from Sona, member of Haven Wellness: Policing people who speak about HAES beyond the idea of body acceptance/body love. Crappy Award Nominee #10, from Natalie Haider, psychologist and yoga instructor from Haven Wellness: Placing the pursuit of health on a pedestal while ignoring all of the other ways humans can be absolute shits to each other. Crappy Award Nominee #11, from listener Mia in California: “WW” and the awful Mindy Grossman, planning to get WW into every home on the planet. Please bugger off Mindy. The Second Annual Crappy Award Prize is a Bullshit Button! The Crappy Award winner is Alyssa, nominee #6, for unsolicited health advice! Unbelievably well delivered sarcasm means Alyssa wins, with 4 equally amazing ties for second place! Resources Mentioned: Hilary Smith’s award winning Crappy rant from last year’s show: The incredibly fatphobic ad for the Huawei mobile phone calorie counter app, thank you to Tania Vincent from Thrive Nutrition for this entry! Find out more about the amazing anti-diet psychologist Janet Lowndes Find out more about Anna Hearn & Haven wellness here

Welcome to the All Fired Up Second Annual Crappy Awards! In this nail biting episode, we hear rants from people all over the world who are letting us know their thoughts on the sh*ttiest diet culture trend for 2018. Hilary Smith, social justice warrior, pole dancer AND winner of last years’ Inaugural Crappy awards, is here to judge the contestants, and my goodness it’s a stiff competition! Pour yourself a drink and get ready to be utterly gobsmacked by the utter diet culture bullsh*t delivered in 2018!   Show Notes It’s time for the 2nd annual Crappy Awards show! Thank you to everybody who submitted their audio rants, we have a very high standard of entries this year! And it is fantastic to have applications from listeners as well as non-diet health professionals. What was the worst, most irritating diet culture trend for 2018? I am joined by last year’s Crappy Award winner, Hilary Smith, who has kindly agreed to come on the show to judge this years entrants and crown the new winner! Hilary will judge each nomination according to Creativity, Quality of the Argument, Passion, and Number of Swear Words. Louise needed to have a little rant about her pet peeve for 2018, the f*cking intermittent fasting craze, with a special mention to Michael Mosely for expanding the spread of such bullsh*t. And to all of the health professionals and researchers pretending that this stupidity is the key to long lasting, effective weight loss, Louise says SCREW YOU! Crappy Award Nominee #1, from New Zealand’s Tania Vincent from Thrive Nutrition: A horrific facebook ad for a fat shaming phone app, using cute little cartoon characters to sell calorie control. Crappy Award Nominee #2, from listener Jade Pettersen: After having gastric surgery, it seems like your body becomes public property! And the support groups online are like breeding grounds for eating disorders! Crappy Award Nominee #3, from listener Ava: Louise reads a heartfelt email about how the weight loss surgery business model is targeting vulnerable people. A good friend of Ava’s was encouraged to take out her superannuation to pay for the surgery, even though her friend has significant mental health issues. Ethics anyone? Crappy Award Nominee #4, from Mind Body Well psychologist Janet Lowndes: The incredibly unethical “Fast Track to Health” trial being run here in Sydney and Melbourne, where adolescents are being  put on intermittent fasting diets for an entire year, in spite of the lack of efficacy for this type of diet. This is just a recipe for an eating disorder, and it is equally heart breaking and enraging that it’s allowed to proceed! Crappy Award Nominee #5, from Heather Eisman all the way from Alaska!: The “Bright Lines Eating” program by Susan Peirce Thompson, a horrendous example of monetising the 12 step programs and increasing restrictive thinking in people who already have eating issues. Crappy Award Nominee #6, from UNTRAPPED member Alyssa: Unsolicited health advice from thin people who think they are doctors. Crappy Award Nominee #7, also from Alyssa: The Cookie Diet - almost no words! Crappy Award Nominee #8, from Anna Hearn from Haven Wellness: The entire diet culture and its relentless toxicity, in particular this idea (incorrect) that we can all ‘choose’ our own body weight. Not supported by science! Crappy Award Nominee #9, from Sona, member of Haven Wellness: Policing people who speak about HAES beyond the idea of body acceptance/body love. Crappy Award Nominee #10, from Natalie Haider, psychologist and yoga instructor from Haven Wellness: Placing the pursuit of health on a pedestal while ignoring all of the other ways humans can be absolute shits to each other. Crappy Award Nominee #11, from listener Mia in California: “WW” and the awful Mindy Grossman, planning to get WW into every home on the planet. Please bugger off Mindy. The Second Annual Crappy Award Prize is a Bullshit Button! The Crappy Award winner is Alyssa, nominee #6, for unsolicited health advice! Unbelievably well delivered sarcasm means Alyssa wins, with 4 equally amazing ties for second place! Resources Mentioned: Hilary Smith’s award winning Crappy rant from last year’s show: The incredibly fatphobic ad for the Huawei mobile phone calorie counter app, thank you to Tania Vincent from Thrive Nutrition for this entry! Find out more about the amazing anti-diet psychologist Janet Lowndes Find out more about Anna Hearn & Haven wellness here

Keith Kalfas is the host of the Untrapped podcast and a social media influencer in the landscaping & window cleaning markets. He is also the owner of Kalfas Services, where he grew the business from zero to a six figure-income in just five years. In this episode, we talked about video marketing, pricing, mindset...

Keith Kalfas is the host of the Untrapped podcast and a social media influencer in the landscaping & window cleaning markets. He is also the owner of Kalfas Services, where he grew the business from zero to a six figure-income in just five years. In this episode, we talked about video marketing, pricing, mindset...

High Voltage Power Line Tree Worker Saves Up & Starts His Own Tree Care Service - Untrapped Podcast Notch & Drop Tree Removal Episode : https://youtu.be/o1dVYgiPBrU Cris Cutting Down Tree https://www.instagram.com/p/BnJy73CDk... SUBSCRIBE YO http://bit.ly/2gUIwVF Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audiobooks - https://amzn.to/2RMbbiI My Bluetooth Neckband - https://amzn.to/2H68YKM Stihl 2-Cycle Oil - https://amzn.to/2SWGqVu Work Gloves - https://amzn.to/2CfzXht Safety Glasses - https://amzn.to/2D55rII Big Camera I Use - https://amzn.to/2D4ToLw Wide Vlog Lens - https://amzn.to/2RHQft5 Regular Lens - https://amzn.to/2SQWRmf Movie Lens - https://amzn.to/2M3rjar Shotgun Mic - https://amzn.to/2D4Ud74 Compact Camera I Use - https://amzn.to/2M5JoVh Drone I Use - https://amzn.to/2CeYJyo My Podcast Mic - https://amzn.to/2RO3NDo My Other Podcast Mic - https://amzn.to/2D5dBkc Best Headphones - https://amzn.to/2VKUO5f Best Cheap Headphones - https://amzn.to/2AFRzTE

Psychologist and author Louise Adams discusses why the Health at Every Size approach is essential in treating disordered eating, the problems with the "obesity epidemic" rhetoric, how trauma and body neglect shaped her relationship with food at a young age, why self-compassion is an essential antidote to shame, how to move from a deprivation mindset to an intuitive mindset with unconditional permission to eat, how to set firm and compassionate boundaries, and lots more. PLUS, Christy answers a listener question about how to handle feeling like you need to lose weight to manage a health condition, and how to stop judging yourself for eating "too much." This episode originally aired on July 24, 2017 Louise is an Australian clinical psychologist, author, podcaster, trainer, and speaker. She owns Treat Yourself Well Sydney, a specialist psychology clinic for weight-inclusive health and wellbeing. Louise founded UNTRAPPED, an online diet-recovery program, and hosts the All Fired Up podcast, where she meets with experts from around the world to debrief, rage, and unpack the (often misguided) messages we’re given about weight, food, exercise, and health. Louise has a special interest and expertise in weight struggles, eating disorders, and body image. Her practice is rooted in the HAES principles of equitable support for people of all shapes and sizes. Louise’s life goal is to dismantle the prison of diet culture and emancipate people to appreciate compassionate, joyful, relaxed relationships with food, movement, and their bodies. Louise has published two books. The Non-Diet Approach Guidebook for Psychologists and Counsellors (2014, co-authored with Fiona Willer, APD) is a manual for health professionals. Her latest book, Mindful Moments (2016) is for the general public, a practical guide to applying self-compassion for people who are time poor. Louise is a member of the Australian Psychological Society (APS), a member of the Clinical College of the APS, and treasurer of HAES Australia. In addition to everything else, Louise runs non-diet training workshops for other health professionals. She regularly speaks to the media on all issues health related, and has experience on radio, print and television. Read more about Louise at www.untrapped.com.au. Grab Christy's free guide, 7 simple strategies for finding peace and freedom with food, to start your intuitive eating journey. If you're ready to give up dieting once and for all, join Christy's Intuitive Eating Fundamentals online course! Ask your own question about intuitive eating, Health at Every Size, or eating disorder recovery at christyharrison.com/questions. To learn more about Food Psych and get full show notes and a transcript of this episode, go to christyharrison.com/foodpsych.

Untrapped pastors are better pastors.

This week on All Fired Up I spoke with Jodie Meichelsen, exercise physiologist and Doctoral candidate (as well as one of our fierce UNTRAPPED guides) about the rage inducing world of Fitspiration. Kayla Itsines, queen of the Fitspo world, is wanting IN to the world of body positivity! She's sniffed out that feeling good about your body is the 'next big thing' and is now pretending that she's all about that. Sorry Kayla but NO. Body positivity exists to push BACK against messages like yours. Jodie and I talk about how statements like this from people who are still busily peddling images of physical perfection is gaslighting and confusing. Money is the motivation here, not social justice. In this enlightening episode, Jodie talks sense about the research on Fitspo and how it impacts our attitudes towards exercise and how it affects our mental health. We also talk about what genuine body positivity is, and how to find inspiration that genuinely supports our wellbeing.

This week on All Fired Up I spoke with Jodie Meichelsen, exercise physiologist and Doctoral candidate (as well as one of our fierce UNTRAPPED guides) about the rage inducing world of Fitspiration. Kayla Itsines, queen of the Fitspo world, is wanting IN to the world of body positivity! She's sniffed out that feeling good about your body is the 'next big thing' and is now pretending that she's all about that. Sorry Kayla but NO. Body positivity exists to push BACK against messages like yours. Jodie and I talk about how statements like this from people who are still busily peddling images of physical perfection is gaslighting and confusing. Money is the motivation here, not social justice. In this enlightening episode, Jodie talks sense about the research on Fitspo and how it impacts our attitudes towards exercise and how it affects our mental health. We also talk about what genuine body positivity is, and how to find inspiration that genuinely supports our wellbeing.

Our guest this week is none other than the fabulous Fiona Sutherland from Body Positive Australia and The Mindful Dietitian. Fiona is also one of our amazing UNTRAPPED guides! In this episode we talk about weight-inclusive health care, and why all bodies deserve to be treated respectfully at the doctor no matter what size! We talk about how weight bias gets in the way of seeing the true complexity of people's health, and how terms such as 'atypical anorexia' (meaning, anorexia in a larger body) are totally screwed up. We then talk about how to EMPOWER yourself and stand up for better treatment.

Our guest this week is none other than the fabulous Fiona Sutherland from Body Positive Australia and The Mindful Dietitian. Fiona is also one of our amazing UNTRAPPED guides! In this episode we talk about weight-inclusive health care, and why all bodies deserve to be treated respectfully at the doctor no matter what size! We talk about how weight bias gets in the way of seeing the true complexity of people's health, and how terms such as 'atypical anorexia' (meaning, anorexia in a larger body) are totally screwed up. We then talk about how to EMPOWER yourself and stand up for better treatment.

Psychologist and author Louise Adams discusses why the Health at Every Size approach is essential in treating disordered eating, the problems with the "obesity epidemic" rhetoric, how trauma and body neglect shaped her relationship with food at a young age, why self-compassion is an essential antidote to shame, how to move from a deprivation mindset to an intuitive mindset with unconditional permission to eat, how to set firm and compassionate boundaries, and lots more. PLUS, Christy answers a listener question about how to handle feeling like you need to lose weight to manage a health condition, and how to stop judging yourself for eating "too much." Louise is an Australian clinical psychologist, author, podcaster, trainer, and speaker. She owns Treat Yourself Well Sydney, a specialist psychology clinic for weight-inclusive health and wellbeing. Louise founded UNTRAPPED, an online diet-recovery program, and hosts the All Fired Up podcast, where she meets with experts from around the world to debrief, rage, and unpack the (often misguided) messages we’re given about weight, food, exercise, and health. Louise has a special interest and expertise in weight struggles, eating disorders, and body image. Her practice is rooted in the HAES principles of equitable support for people of all shapes and sizes. Louise’s life goal is to dismantle the prison of diet culture and emancipate people to appreciate compassionate, joyful, relaxed relationships with food, movement, and their bodies. Louise has published two books. The Non-Diet Approach Guidebook for Psychologists and Counsellors (2014, co-authored with Fiona Willer, APD) is a manual for health professionals. Her latest book, Mindful Moments (2016) is for the general public, a practical guide to applying self-compassion for people who are time poor. Louise is a member of the Australian Psychological Society (APS), a member of the Clinical College of the APS, and treasurer of HAES Australia. In addition to everything else, Louise runs non-diet training workshops for other health professionals. She regularly speaks to the media on all issues health related, and has experience on radio, print and television. Read more about Louise at www.untrapped.com.au. To learn more about Food Psych and get full show notes for this episode, go to christyharrison.com/foodpsych Ask your own question about intuitive eating, Health at Every Size, or eating disorder recovery at christyharrison.com/questions Grab Christy's free guide, 7 simple strategies for finding peace and freedom with food, to start your intuitive eating journey. You can also text "7STRATEGIES" to the phone number 44222 to get it on the go :) Join the Food Psych Facebook group to connect with fellow listeners around the world!