Podcasts about Natural Resources Canada

Will U.S. tariffs disrupt Canada's energy sector? What is the current state of cross-border electricity trade? How can we strengthen interprovincial connections to secure a sustainable energy future in our country? Host Trevor Freeman summarizes the on and offs of Canada's electricity trade. Tune in to learn about the complexities and challenges of evolving energy policies, infrastructure, and regulatory landscapes governed by both federal and provincial authorities. Related links   ●     Canadian Energy Regulator: https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/index.html ●     The Transition Accelerator: https://transitionaccelerator.ca/  ●     Electrifying Canada: https://electrifyingcanada.ca/ ●     Canada Electricity Advisory Council: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/energy-sources/canada-electricity-advisory-council ●     thinkenergy episode 143 with Quest Canada: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/electrifying-canadas-remote-communities-with-quest-canada/ ●     Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en  To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/   Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:07 Welcome to a think energy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman, this is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and we'll compliment our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening.  Hi everyone. Welcome back to another thinkenergy short. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman, today we're going to take a look at Canada's electricity trade. You may recall that in my first episode of 2025 we did a look ahead at the year in energy, and we did briefly touch on potential upcoming tariffs, and I highlighted that there is a fair amount of trade and electricity across the border. So, given that we are still on the potential cusp of these tariffs being implemented, I'm recording this on march 3, and March 4 is the date that new tariffs are set to be implemented by the US on Canada, we thought it was probably a good idea to take a look at trade through the lens of electricity, to give you a sense of how this might impact electricity and what the future might hold. So we'll look at the current landscape, the challenges posed by some of these recent policies, and the potential for strengthening interprovincial connections to ensure a resilient and sustainable energy future.  So, let's start by establishing the current state of Canada's electricity trade. In short, Canada's electricity grids were designed to serve local demand, rather than looking at a large scale, integrated national grid, for all. We'll get more into this shortly, but it's the main reason why you'll see the majority of Canada's electricity grids at the provincial level are kind of oriented north to south when it comes to interconnections, rather than east to west. They are a stronger trade relationship to meet the higher demand of the United States, rather than between provinces and territories. Canada's electricity trade has long been a cornerstone of the North American energy framework that's governed by both federal and provincial authorities. These cross-border interconnections have facilitated a robust exchange with Canada, exporting around $3.2 billion worth of electricity to the United States in 2023 alone. And yes, that was billion with a B. So, let's talk about cross border trade. The Canadian energy regulator, or CER, oversees electricity exports to the United States, ensuring compliance with market regulations, fair access and impact assessment on our domestic supply. It should be noted that the CER does not regulate electricity imports into Canada. That is the role of provincial Crown corporations or private market participants who decide on the volume of electricity being traded here in Ontario, as we've talked about many times on the show, the IESO, or Independent Electricity System Operator decides on the amount of electricity that is needed in coming in terms of infrastructure, the CER regulates 86 different international power lines that connect Canada's provinces to the US electricity grid in different locations. So, to help you visualize this, you know, imagine a map of North America, starting west to east. We've got British Columbia, which is linked to the US Pacific Northwest grid. Manitoba and parts of Ontario are both connected to the US midcontinent grid. The other part of Ontario and Quebec are connected to the US Eastern grids. And finally, New Brunswick is connected to the US New England grid. So, there are a lot of different connection points across the map. So that gives you a picture of our current trade relationship, so, now let's look at how some of the recent policy shifts may affect that.  Canadians will be well aware that the dynamics of international trade are being tested by the recent shift in the US approach to trade policies, and that includes the electricity trade. As I said at the beginning, I'm recording this on march 3, the day before broad, sweeping tariffs are set to be imposed by the United States on Canada, and that will impact electricity potentially, as well. The Trump administration's imposition of tariffs on Canadian imports has introduced a whole layer of uncertainty and tension. In response, Canadian officials have contemplated numerous different measures, including restricting electricity exports to the United States, states like Michigan and in New York or Minnesota who receive a lot of electricity from us. In Ontario, our recently reelected premier Doug Ford has highlighted the significance of these exports and has noted that Canada's electricity has powered 1.5 million American homes just last year, as recently as last month, Premier Ford raised the possibility of charging Americans more for electricity that Ontario sends to the US, and has also announced plans to cut off energy exports to the United States if the Trump administration moves ahead with tariff threats. These developments create a climate of uncertainty, and such trade disputes underscore the vulnerability inherent in our current trade dependent system. That vulnerability has raised calls for Canada to look and invest inward, which brings us to interprovincial connectivity. Let's examine the case for strengthening interprovincial connectivity in Canada, as I said at the top, we don't have a national grid. In fact, Canada's electricity infrastructure, which we've talked about many times, consists of multiple provincial or territorial grids, each governed and regulated by its respective province or territory. They also vary in systems and resources for producing electricity, with some regions having ample access to water resources, hydroelectricity, for example, others relying heavily on nuclear energy, and still, others looking more to fossil fuels, like oil or gas for electricity generation, a more cohesive pan Canadian electricity grid has long been a topic of conversation, even before this current threat of tariffs from the United States. A few years ago, there was renewed interest in the idea of interprovincial connectivity to achieve a 100% net zero electricity system by 2035 and eliminate harmful emissions countrywide by 2050. Basically, utilizing the electricity grid to support decarbonization at the individual customer level. Of course, the federal government has recently relaxed its goal for a net zero electricity system by 2035 mostly due to feasibility concerns, but the goal is still there to achieve Net Zero electricity generation across the entire country, and work has already been done towards that. So, working closely with Natural Resources Canada, the transition accelerator, which is a nonprofit organization dedicated to accelerating the transition to low carbon economy and advancing Canada's 2050 climate target, created an initiative called Electrifying Canada, which was focused on widespread electrification throughout the economy. That initiative brought together a diverse group of stakeholders, including government, indigenous peoples, industry, labor and civil society, to develop a roadmap for the electrification of Canada. This roadmap runs in parallel with the federal government's Electricity Advisory Council, and outlines recommendations to create a pan Canadian electricity grid, including identifying the infrastructure needed, the regulatory and policy changes that are required and the necessary investments needed to make it happen. Given the challenges presented by the United States and the growing discourse around bolstering interprovincial electricity connections, enhancing our domestic grid could offer several different benefits. These could include energy security. So, by reducing reliance on external markets, we can ensure a more stable and self-sufficient energy supply. There's also economic resilience, strengthened interprovincial trade can mitigate the economic impacts of international trade disputes and tariffs. And finally, there are environmental goals, so a cohesive national grid can facilitate the integration of renewable energy sources, aiding in the achievement of our net zero emissions targets. The CERs Canada's energy future 2023 report projects a 27% increase in interprovincial transmission capacity by 2035 under a global net zero scenario. So, we need this interprovincial connectivity in order to meet our net zero targets. It's something that kind of has to happen anyway, or is one of the key strategies in order to make that happen. This expansion would enable more efficient electricity transfers between provinces, allowing us to optimize resource utilization and enhance grid reliability. All the things that we talk about on this show about how to make our grid more efficient and more effective can be enhanced by looking not just at our provincial grids, but at more of a pan Canadian grid. While a National Grid offers many benefits, there are significant challenges to overcome, surprise. Surprise. We talk about this all the time on the show, so let's explore some of these challenges and considerations in order to make interprovincial connections a reality. To start with, the existing infrastructure was primarily designed for localized needs and aligning the diverse regulatory frameworks of each province or territory presents a complex challenge. Additionally, significant investment would be required to develop the necessary transmission lines and related infrastructure. So, it's both a regulatory challenge as well as a physical infrastructure challenge. We just don't have all the transmission lines and interconnections that are required. Here, according to the CER Market Snapshot webpage, electricity transmission lines in the Yukon and Northwest Territories do not actually connect to the larger North American grids or even to each other. And Nunavut doesn't have any transmission lines connecting its communities at all, but rather, each community independently generates and distributes its own electricity. I'll draw your attention back to an episode that I did last October with Gemma Pinchin from Quest Canada. And in that conversation, she highlighted that almost 200,000 Canadians in more than 280 remote communities don't connect to their local electricity grid or natural gas system, and it's not feasible at the moment for them to do so, given how remote they are. So, that presents some challenges as well. At a more macro level, looking at interprovincial framework, in August 2023 Ontario and Quebec announced a 600-megawatt electricity trade agreement, exemplifying the potential for greater interprovincial collaboration. Such initiatives could serve as blueprints for broader efforts to enhance our national grid. Despite these challenges, there is progress being made by investing in our domestic infrastructure and fostering provincial collaborations, Canada can build a resilient, sustainable and self-reliant energy system poised to meet future challenges. The energy transition, as we've talked about before is all encompassing and includes many different strategies. So, while we sometimes talk about the end result that EV or that heat pump that needs to be installed on the show, we also need to look at the more macro level, as how do we actually arrange our energy systems and our provincial grids, and what is the best option for that.  So, that wraps up our look at Canada's electricity trade and how the current trade landscape might impact that moving forward. Hopefully you found that interesting. Thanks for tuning in for another think energy short, as always, we'd love to hear from you, and we'll talk to you next time.  Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com  

What caused this morning's earthquake? Guest: Dr. John Cassidy, Senior Research Scientist with Natural Resources Canada and Adjunct Professor of Earthquake Seismology at the University of Victoria Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What caused this morning's earthquake? Guest: Dr. John Cassidy, Senior Research Scientist with Natural Resources Canada and Adjunct Professor of Earthquake Seismology at the University of Victoria Is the White House using misleading data on Canadian fentanyl? Guest: Kathryn Blaze-Baum, Investigative Reporter for the Globe and Mail Can you predict who will win an Oscar? Guest: Andre Spicer, Professor of Organisational Behaviour at the University of London's Bayes Business School who also studies “Oscarology” The Masterless Men of Butter Pot Guest: Craig Baird, Host of the Podcast “Canada History Ehx” What caused Trump and Zelenskyy's heated confrontation? Guest: Stefan Wolff, Professor of International Security at the University of Birmingham How the trade war is affecting American franchises in Canada Guest: Chad Finkelstein, Partner at Dale & Lessman LLP, and chair of the firms franchising, licensing and distribution group. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tonight, Mark Carney, Chrystia Freeland, Karina Gould and Frank Bayliss will debate each other in English about the leadership for the federal Liberals. As threats of U.S. tariffs loom large, what kind of leader is needed — from any party or level of government — right now?  Shachi Kurl, president of the Angus Reid institute, joins the show to discuss. In the wake of two recent earthquakes, one that was felt by many on the South Coast, how ready are we for more severe shakes? Alison Bird, a seismologist and the outreach officer for the Earthquake Early Warning program at Natural Resources Canada, and Carlos Ventura, a professor of structural and earthquake engineering at UBC, discuss.

What do we know about Friday's earthquake, and could more be on the way? Guest: Dr. John Cassidy, Senior Research Scientist with Natural Resources Canada and Adjunct Professor of Earthquake Seismology at the University of Victoria Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What do we know about Friday's earthquake, and could more be on the way? Guest: Dr. John Cassidy, Senior Research Scientist with Natural Resources Canada and Adjunct Professor of Earthquake Seismology at the University of Victoria What is BC doing with its wine industry waste? Guest: Kirk Moir, CEO of Crush Dynamics Why are Western Canada's glaciers melting so quickly? Guest: Dr. Brian Menounos, Professor of Earth Sciences at the University of Northern BC and Research Scientist with Natural Resources Canada How should you prepare for an earthquake? Guest: Naomi Yamamoto, Board Chair of the BC Earthquake Alliance How does BC want to change its interprovincial trade barriers? Guest: Diana Gibson, BC's Minister of Jobs, Economic Development and Innovation Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We were joined by Allison Bent, a seismologist with Natural Resources Canada, to discuss the small earthquake that occurred on New Years Day in this province.

FPX Nickel CEO Martin Turenne joined Steve Darling from Proactive to share significant advancements in the company's Baptiste Nickel Project during an interview with Proactive. FPX has successfully completed pilot-scale hydrometallurgy refinery testwork, producing battery-grade nickel sulphate—a critical material for the EV battery market. Turenne noted that this milestone follows the successful 2023 bench-scale hydrometallurgy refining testwork and marks a major step forward in demonstrating the refining process of Baptiste's awaruite concentrate. The pilot plant work was partially funded by Natural Resources Canada under the government's Critical Minerals Research, Development and Demonstration program, aimed at advancing Canada's EV battery material supply chain. Turenne emphasized that if the Baptiste project progresses as expected, it could lead to a 50% increase in Canada's annual nickel production, without impacting the country's current nickel smelting or refinery capacity. This breakthrough represents a low-cost, low-carbon solution for linking mining to EV battery production. The results from the pilot plant are being incorporated into FPX's Awaruite Refinery Scoping Study, which will provide detailed evaluations of capital and operating costs. The study is on track for completion in Q1 2025, offering valuable insights into the commercial potential of the awaruite refinery. #proactiveinvestors #fpxnickelcorp #tsxv #fpx #otcqb #fpocf #bcgov #bcpoli #BatteryNickel #ElectricVehicleBatteries #NickelSulfate #MiningNews #EVBatteries #CleanEnergy #NickelProduction #MartinTurenne #BatteryMaterials #invest #investing #investment #investor #stockmarket #stocks #stock #stockmarketnews

Michael Parsons, a research scientist with Natural Resources Canada, says he's identified the best way to clean up the shuttered Montague Gold Mines site. But there's a separate challenge that could be bigger than the cleanup. That's convincing local people to stop using the tailings piles as places to go offroading.

Natural Resources Canada is working on a new label that will be required to be displayed on manufactured window products that are shipped across provincial borders or imported into Canada. The label would display the same energy efficiency information as NFRC, CSA and Energy Star labels, and could act to replace them if the manufacturer desired. Adam Buist is helping to develop the new label and joins Fenestration Conversations to explain the work, explore the benefits and challenges, and update us on the status of the project.Adam invites questions and outreach at adam.buist@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca.Fenestration Review's article about the program here: https://www.fenestrationreview.com/one-label-to-rule-them-all/

Natural Resources Canada ("NRCan") announced conditional approval of 40-million-dollars-canadian in federal funding to undertake pre-feasibility activities to advance a high-voltage transmission line network connecting the Yukon electrical grid to the North American grid in British Columbia. Kootenay Silver reports results from an additional five drill holes at the Columba High Grade Silver Project. American Pacific Mining Corp reports drill results from the 2024 Phase 1 infill and extension drill program at its Madison Copper-Gold Project in Montana. Meridian Mining reports High-Grade Assay Results & New Geophysical Targets at its Au-Cu-Ag & Zn Santa Helena deposit in Mato Grosso, Brazil.

For decades we've known that one day a masssive earthquake would hit the fault off of Canada's west coast—and after new research last year was published this summer, we now know so much more.What we can now determine is what that quake will look like. How much shaking, and for how long? How high will the tsunami be? How far inland will it go? Where will the quake strike first and how much force will it contain? All of this information will help us prepare both our infrastructure and our citizens for when the day comes—but we still don't know when that day will be...GUEST: John Cassidy, Senior Research Scientist with Natural Resources Canada; Professor at the University of Victoria We love feedback at The Big Story, as well as suggestions for future episodes. You can find us:Through email at hello@thebigstorypodcast.ca Or by calling 416-935-5935 and leaving us a voicemailOr @thebigstoryfpn on Twitter

Most Canadians are eager to combat climate change. But how? One actionable area is reducing emissions from our homes. In episode 141 of thinkenergy, Sarah Grant, founder and co-owner of Goldfinch Energy, shares ways you can reduce your home's reliance on fossil fuels. Goldfinch Energy is a women-owned, Toronto-based organization offering energy assessments, clean tech roadmaps, and green renovation support services. Listen in to learn about home decarbonization and electrification solutions. Related links   Goldfinch Energy: https://www.goldfinchenergy.ca/  Sarah Grant on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-grant-89ba152b/ Natural Resources Canada Energy Advisor program: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/energy-efficiency/homes/professional-opportunities/become-registered-energuide-rating-system-energy-advisor/20566  Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/  Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en     To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript: SPEAKERS Trevor Freeman, Sarah Grant Trevor Freeman  00:07 Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroauttawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. And welcome back from the summer. As you know, think energy paused over the summer, and hopefully you got a break over the summer as well, time to rest and be rejuvenated. There were certainly times of that for us here. I was able to get out and do some camping and canoeing with the family, which, if you're not from Canada, if you're if you're not in Ontario, there's some fantastic camping and canoeing spots here, so come and check them out. But it was also a busy summer. Things, some things do slow down, and others just seem to fill in that empty space in the calendar. So, we've been busy and hard at work. One of the things we've been doing is spending some time thinking about what this next season of think energy has in store. There are lots of great topics to explore, lots of interesting and smart people out there to talk to the world of the energy transition and energy in general is not slowing down. In fact, it's picking up steam quite a bit. So, lots to dive into this season. We may take a different approach on some topics, on some episodes. We might try out some new things. So yeah, come along for the ride. So today, for our first episode of the season, we're going to kick things off with something close to home, and you will forgive me for that very intended and poor pun, because we're talking about home decarbonization and electrification. We know that most Canadians want to do something about climate change. The data shows us this, and you can go back and listen to my conversation with David Caletto from abacus data for more information on this. We want to live in a society that isn't producing harmful emissions that are jeopardizing our future, but it often feels like so much of that is out of our control. So when it comes to climate action, what we often look to is those things that are in our control, which, for those fortunate enough to own their own homes, is the emissions that result from where we live and, by extension, for somehow we get around the city, so our vehicles, even that action, however, can be daunting if we don't know where to start and we don't know what our options are, and we're relying on contractors, or tradespeople who tend to take maybe a more traditional, fossil fuel based approach. There are great contractors out there, but sometimes it's hard to find them, so today we're going to explore that a little bit. Now I do want to throw a quick caveat out there to say that this conversation is really through the lens of kind of a single family or semidetached home, and through the lens of those that either own their own home, or at the very least have some decision making. Power for that home. Decarbonizing multi-unit buildings like apartments or condos or decarbonizing for renters, is a whole different but equally important conversation that I do plan on tackling at another time. So my conversation today is with Sarah Grant, who is the co-founder and co-owner of Goldfinch energy. Goldfinch energy is a Toronto, Ontario based, women owned small business that is dedicated to helping Canadians reduce their homes reliance on fossil fuels. They offer energy assessments, clean tech roadmaps and green renovation support services. Sarah has degrees in engineering and computer science. She's held leadership roles in renewable energy and local food systems, and is a certified energy advisor. And is really someone who's just passionate about tackling climate change and passionate about talking about it as well. So, I think you're going to enjoy the conversation today. Sarah, welcome to the show.   Sarah Grant  04:21 Thanks for having me   Trevor Freeman  04:22 so. Full disclosure to our listeners here, Sarah and I have actually known each other for quite a long time. And I was trying to do the math there, I think it's like getting close to 20 years now, and we know each other from a different line of work. We both were in international developments and worked overseas for a while. So, I think my first question is, tell us how you came to be in the home energy business. That's a bit of a shift from international development. And then tell us a little bit about what Goldfinch energy does.   Sarah Grant  04:53 Awesome. It is true. It is a bit of a shift, although I have always been interested in big, big problems that the world is facing, and working in international development, yeah, I guess 20 or so years ago, I could already see the impacts of the climate crisis, working with subsistence farmers, hearing them tell the stories of how they would plant and um, reigns weren't as predictable as they had been before. And so, when it was time for me to come back to Canada live a bit closer to family, it was something that I was always interested in, and felt like it was another global problem that I could start working on more locally, more specifically, sort of how Goldfinch was born was, to some extent, out of the pandemic. So, some goodness came out of that. Early in the spring, I was working in another sort of climate focused endeavor, a nonprofit that it was clear wasn't going to do very well with the pandemic ongoing, and a friend actually approached me and said, hey, I have this idea. She herself had been working in the sort of climate change world and had had a furnace die, and had asked about heat pumps, and was just laughed at. So, she ended up with a oversized, gas guzzling furnace to continue to heat her home and knew she could have done better. So, Goldfinch energy was sort of born out of that idea that we're not alone. Many of us want to do something, and our homes are a large portion of our individual commissions. If you are lucky enough to own a home, that is, and there are small steps, big steps you can take. All of it matters. And so that's Goldfinch. So, we then, early on, decided, in order to help people, it was going to be useful to become energy advisors. So, I took some training. Actually, it's a really interesting program the federal government through Natural Resources Canada administers the, I guess, the industry of being an energy advisor. And so, there are sort of two exams you take. And so, we studied in 2020, and launched Goldfinch energy with the idea that, after doing some market research as well that, you know, what was really going to be helpful was being able to help people sort of break down the complexity of what's going on with their homes, what they can do to address the climate change crisis. And also, you know, with a home, it's also not just about that. It's about maybe making it a bit more comfortable, or maybe there's a planned renovation that someone might want to do to change the layout, what have you. And so, we establish golden energy to help people make their homes better for the planet and for themselves.   Trevor Freeman  07:52 Great. Yeah, it's, I think I hear that a lot from folks, and it's in my own experience of, you know roughly that you want to do the right thing, you know, roughly that, yeah, I want to, you know, reduce carbon, but I don't know how. And the answer I'm going to get from my average contractor is not going to point me in that direction. I'm hoping that we're seeing some change, and folks like you guys are maybe pushing that a little bit, but it's great to know that there's organizations out there that can provide that direct support. So, I mean, what we're talking about today is pretty much home electrification, or, let's say, home decarbonization. And so, let's pull apart what that looks like. And there's probably a few different scenarios of how a homeowner could approach this work. There's the one that you described where your furnace kind of dies in the middle of January, which is my own experience a number of years ago. And you have to make a really quick decision. But let's park that scenario for now. Let's talk about if you have time, if you know you want to do this, and you can start planning now, what where do you start? And, oh, you know, looking through the services that you guys provide, you have the energy assessment, the cleantech roadmap, talk us through some of those tools that you use to help people kind of start their decarbonization journey.   Sarah Grant  09:16 So, this is a great question. The best way to start is just by getting a sense of where your home is now. A lot of the homes that I work in, I'm based in Toronto, are 100 plus years old. So, you know, when they were first built, didn't have any insulation. They leaked like a sieve. They were probably heated with wood or some type of fossil fuel. And you know, different expectations were had and over the over the decades, often homes have had a myriad of homeowners and renovations or no renovations. So, an energy assessment is a way for someone to better understand what's going on with their home right now and our clean tech roadmap, then segues from that and helps goes deeper into okay, I now know where my home is losing heat, where you know how efficient or not it is, what levels of insulation exist in behind the walls and in the attic, and you know how drafty it is. There's a cool tool that we use to measure that, the clean tech roadmap, then puts that assessment and translates that into helps people translate that into a plan that they can then ideally act on. So, this plan includes details like, Okay, what you know if you are going to be renovating the basement, stay and want to finish that space. What are the recommended insulation materials that you should use? And how should you treat water? Because, you know, often basements are a little bit below the water table. So, what does that look like? How can we better air seal that space to make it less drafty as well? And maybe you're going to be touching the heating or the hot water. So, what are the options there? What are some contractor names? So, it's really designed to give people all the tools that hopefully they may need if they have the time to not only understand where their home is at, but what they can do and then even have everything at their fingertips to start to seek out quotes and start to take action on their home in the way that's best suited to them. So, some homeowners are able and fortunate enough to kind of do everything in one big bell swoop of, you know, a big, big renovation, perhaps, or, you know, over a few months' time, able to kind of get, get everything off the list. A lot of the homeowners that we work with aren't in that sort of circumstances. A lot of homeowners who just bought a house, so the house is new to them, but maybe 100 years old. And so, having that clean tech roadmap in their hands then allows them to sort of say, Okay, well, what? What do we want to do this year and the next year, and I've had people that, you know, we worked with four years ago, have who have come back to me a few years later and said, Okay, well, now we're ready to do this? Can you help us which, which is so great, so it's designed to sort of meet people where they are, where they are, with their goals, with their budget and their lifestyle. Because not everyone can afford to kind of do all the you know the right things all at once.   Trevor Freeman  12:24 Yeah, so, I think like having someone in to one understand what's there, because not everybody knows exactly what's in their house, as you said, and then have that plan. That doesn't mean you have to implement the plan today all at once, but knowing you know when this piece of equipment goes or when I work on this part of the house, here's what I'm going to do, here's the things I need to consider. And having that kind of in your back pocket. Or when you do that work is super helpful. You touched on something else that I want to ask you about, which is, you know, oftentimes when we think about decarbonizing our homes or changing out big pieces of equipment. Of course, we're thinking of, you know, our heating system, our cooling system, our hot water system, but you mentioned a couple other things. So, what are some things to address before getting into those big equipment purchases? You know, changing out your furnace. What should what should you do in advance of that?   Sarah Grant  13:20 I mean, first and foremost, you know, if you have a home and you have issues with water, with mold, those are kind of, you know, structural issues. Those are aspects that tend to, you know, they're top of the list. But, you know, assuming, let's assume, you know, we're talking about homes that kind of don't have those pressing needs. Some of the some of the items that are ideal to address before electrifying are involve making your home better at keeping the heat in. So that's really comes down to just insulate, more insulation where you can, to the extent that you can, and reducing air leakage. So, a lot of people are familiar with insulation. Usually, most contractors these days, if someone's renovating a kitchen, will find a way to add some insulation. Reducing air leakage is still, I would say, not as much on a contractor's radar as it would be ideal. A lot of the green contractors and architects that I work with, it's sort of as important, or even more important, and to us it is as well. So, in the winter, the insulation for your house is kind of like your sweater, and if you don't have any sort of windbreaker, you're going to have a lot of air leakage. So, the air leakage for your home is kind of like adding a windbreaker. Sorry, I started to talk about it like with homeowners, like there are different levels of air leakage. So, level one just involves walking around with a caulking gun and doing what you can to seal up the gaps and the cracks, maybe around the windows. In the window trim, maybe along the baseboards. People often have a good sense of some of the larger sources of air leakage, because they feel drafty, and so that's kind of level one, air leakage. Level two could involve maybe doing a little bit more in the basement, around what's called the rim joist. So, if you look up in your basement and your basement is unfinished where the sort of the ceiling joists meet the walls, those are often a huge source of air leakage. And there's a lot that can often be done to reduce air leakage there. And there are different products. I don't know if we want to get into that today, but I'll just leave it at that for now. And level three is if you are going to be replacing the siding from the outside or from the inside, gutting your house, adding an air barrier, which is a material that serves to reduce the air leakage. Overall, it is like wrapping your house in a big windbreaker. If someone is able to do that, if you're able to say, if you have siding on the outside of your house that you need to be replaced. Adding an air barrier can have the most significant impacts in terms of reducing air leakage. So, you asked, sort of, where should someone start? I think, you know, it does come back to a lot of people I find replace their siding or replace their windows, maybe more for esthetic reasons, or they have reached their end of life. But reducing air leakage, doing what you can if you're replacing your siding, to also add insulation, isn't always on people's minds. So again, back to having that plan. If you have a plan, if you know, okay, when I need to redo my flat roof or redo my siding or redo my windows, I'm going to be thinking about these extra pieces that will ensure that I'm going to take a few more steps to make my house do a better job of keeping the heat in, by adding more insulation, by reducing air leakage. Those are great, great first steps when possible.   Trevor Freeman  16:54 And the added benefit, I think, of that, and this is important for people to know, is there's a huge comfort impact there. I mean this, we're not even really talking yet about energy savings and carbon you will just have a more comfortable home if it's less drafty, if it holds the heat in better, keeps the heat out in the summer, and that is one of the drivers for some of these changes that we're talking about here today. It's not just because you really care about climate change, it's also because you want a more comfortable and efficient home.   Sarah Grant  17:25 100% I think that comfort just like someone having a broken furnace. Well, maybe not exactly, but similar to, I think, is can act as that trigger, as that motivator, to push people. So I do often have people calling and saying, Hey, like, can you come and do a consult? Because we don't often use the third floor of our house. It's just not as comfortable. And so we'll figure out what's going on and help people make a plan to address that. And ideally, you know, I find when I'm able to do that, I'd rather help someone make a better use of existing space than help them plan out an addition. Um, I have sometimes ended up talking people out of an addition, because upon sort of discussing their house real, we've realized, okay, like they don't use their basement because it's unfinished, it's dark, it's damp, it's, you know, it's the scary, cobwebby place. And so we develop a plan that involves adding more sunlight and making it comfortable, making it not so damp and scary, and that helps. They're already heating that space. It's sort of a space that you're already sort of half there. And so energy wise, you're making an improvement, and have avoided making your house bigger, which is maybe required, but it can be avoided, is better too.   Trevor Freeman  18:49 Okay, so I want to dive into the things that probably people are most familiar with when we talk about reducing our own fossil fuel consumption in a home. And so these are your big users, like how you heat your space, how you heat your water, and for some people cooking. So especially those first do space heating and water heating. The majority of Canadians at least use some kind of fossil fuel to heat their homes, especially here in Ontario. So that's typically natural gas cooking is a little bit more of a mixed bag, but there's a lot of gas cooking out there. So maybe talk us through what would be the sort of low to no carbon option for each of those three things.   Sarah Grant  19:31 Great, okay, going from large to small. So the largest source of emissions in a home is your space heating. Typically, the emissions are about the same as driving a sort of a mid to large sized car. You know, most people drive, on average, 15,000 kilometers a year. The emissions are going to be about the same so that that's going to be the biggest one, if someone is looking and they're a little bit overwhelmed, and the best alternative is a. Heat pump. So these are they come in many different forms, but the most common, and I think the most common scenario for most homes is if you have forced air. So ductwork and these kind of heat pumps can extract heat from the air outside. A lot of them can work up to minus 30 degrees. So even up to minus 30, they're able to grab latent heat in the air and pump it inside, and then it gets pumped around your house. The cool thing about them is that they can also work in reverse. So, in the summer, they act just like an air conditioner. In fact, the technology is very much the same as an air conditioner, just that they work in reverse in the winter too. So they can also cool. So these are called Air source heat pumps. And, yeah, someone has forced air and they have a gas furnace or an air conditioner or both that need to be replaced. An air source heat pump is, is a great option. A lot of the folks that we've worked with that have switched, you know, you talked about comfort, sort of some of the side benefits, I would say, of a heat pump is they're typically quieter if designed and sized and installed properly, they're they they're quieter both the outside and the inside aspects of a heat pump, and the air from the vents is a lot more comfortable. So we got a heat pump about three years ago, and the first winter we had it installed, my father in law came over for dinner one night and just stood in front of the vent, kind of like a cat basking in that warmth, and said, Oh my gosh, this is way more comfortable. It's not that dry, scorched air that a lot of people associate with poor stairs. So that's, that's an air source heat pump. You can also, there are also ground source heat pumps, but for a lot of you know urban areas, these ground source heat pumps involve drilling into the ground, either horizontally or vertically, to extract heat from the ground. They I have worked with a few homes in sort of more rural areas where it does make sense, but the costs associated with them are really high, and often there's not enough space in urban areas, so they're not quite as common. And I'd say sort of, just to kind of close the conversation on we'll conclude it on the on the heating side of things, if you do have another source of like heat, maybe it's, maybe it's cast iron radiators or baseboards. There are also heat pumps that can help you as well. So with cast iron radiators, they're what's called air to water heat pumps. So they'll the outdoor unit will look similar to someone who has forced air. So it's an it's going to extract heat from the outside air, and it'll transfer it to water. Now that can then go through your cast iron radiators, or maybe have insular heating or what have you. They're not as common, but the technology has existed for a long time in Europe, and there are more products and contractors that I'm working with that are becoming more comfortable with installing this technology. And last there are what's called ductless heat pumps. So if you don't have ductwork or cast iron radiators, or maybe have baseboards, or maybe there's a space where the ductwork just isn't sufficient, these ductless heat pumps can be installed. They can either go on the wall, on sort of these big white boxes. If you've been to Asia, you're probably familiar with them because they exist there, either in the form of heat pumps or air conditioners, or you can have little floor mounted ones as well, which look a little bit slicker, I suppose, but they do cost a little bit more. So that's heating for hot water. There are kind of two main options if you want to get off of fossil fuels. Usually that's yeah, for most of us, that's with the gas, but there could be propane as well. So, if you want to get off of fossil fuels with your hot water, the heat pump technology exists with hot water as well. Heat Pump hot water tanks is what they're called. Are actually, confusingly, sometimes hybrid tanks, because they use heat pump technology, but then also have an electric coil. So, they operate, they can operate like a simple electric tank, if, um, if needed. And they come with a little like Wi Fi app too. So they are, like, four times more efficient than a gas hot water tank. So you will save a little bit by switching to them. But the way they work is they'll extract heat from your basement, actually, so from your basement air and transfer that to the water. So, I would say about half the people I work with end up going with them because they have a space where it makes sense. Maybe their basement is large and they can put it kind of in the corner and a big mechanical room or a workshop where they're not going to go into it. So, if it, if that heat pump reduces the temperature by two degrees or so, it's not a big deal. But for me, my home is pretty tiny, and we're using every nook and cranny with five of us in it, so we opted for an electric tank and, um. And then paired it with a timer so that it only reheats the water overnight when electricity, if you're on time of use, is cheapest, and that's also when our Ontario grid is using the non-fossil fuel related forms of power production, like nuclear and water. So that can work if you're really lucky and you have an open an unfinished basement and a good space to install what's called a drain water heat recovery system. These are super cool, very simple technologies that can transfer the heat from any water that you've already used, like from your shower, and transfer it to the fresh water before that fresh water then goes into whatever heating mechanism you have. So, they can work with anything, even if you have a gas hot water tank, a drain water heat recovery system is a good way to kind of preheat the water by extracting the heat from the hot water you've already used a lot of hospitals I know in Toronto are starting to use these kinds of systems as well. So two main options, electric tank, you pump out water tank, and then those drain water heat recovery systems as well, and hot water. So, you know, I said you're heating, heating your house. It's usually about kind of 8080, or so percent of a home emission, home emissions hot water is, is around 15 to 20% just to give an idea of sort of how it fits into the relative picture. But ultimately, I wouldn't say, you know, do one over the other, unless you know, if you have, if you have a hot water tank that's broken, replace that with a with an electric tank, or heat pump hot water tank. Don't, don't just say, Oh, it's only 20% I shouldn't do that one. It's still worth it. Every little appliance that you can get off of fossil fuels is one step closer to then being able to disconnect from the gas utility or what have you, and sets you up for, ultimately, like a little bit of savings too, because you're no longer paying for that delivery fee to have access to that fossil fuel in your house. So cooking, cooking is cooking is probably, to be honest, like, the most fun of all of these just because, you know, it impacts your daily life. If like, hot water and heating and cooling are one of those things where you don't, like, I don't think about my heat pump unless it's not working properly, which we haven't had an issue with. But, you know, it just sits there and it does, it does its thing, and I'm happy to have it off of fossil fuels. But for cooking, switching, for us, switching. We switched from a gas stove to an induction stove about a year ago, and it's amazing, like I've got little kids, and I love that. I feel comfortable teaching them how to cook on this stove, just because of the way the induction stove works, the whole cooktop doesn't get heated up in the same way you accidentally leave, like a rag or a paper towel on the stove, not going to catch on fire. We did have a few of those incidences with our former gas stove. And, like, it's really quick. I know that there's a lot of stats and data about how quick it can heat up water, but it's one of those things that you don't believe it until you sort of experience it yourself. So yeah, so we got, we got a nice flick induction stove, because our gas stove was kind of reaching its end of life, and we were starting to smell some of the gas as well, even when it wasn't on, which I know is an issue, that's, that's, you know, something that's, that's hostages for our help. And, you know, there's a lot of research and evidence out there related to, like respiratory issues and gas related cooking. So, if you do have a gas stove and you aren't able to afford to switch now, make sure you're using your exhaust, like your range hood, properly, not just when you're using the top, but when you're cooking in the oven too. But yeah, if you're able to switch it out, then you can just break a little easier knowing that you're not, you're not using some sort of like fossil fuel to cook, cook with, and so your house is cleaner, and you're making the planet a bit cleaner as well.   Trevor Freeman  29:11 That's definitely one of those other benefits of going down that path. And everyone we're in a similar vein, I cook with electric resistance now, but our stove is near its end of life, and I've excited to get that induction stove, because everybody I talked to just sort of says it's one of the coolest things that you can add to your kitchen. So, I'm excited about. One other big source of fossil fuels in our daily lives that people will be familiar with, obviously, is, is our cars, how we drive, how we get around. Most folks still have an internal combustion engine car, and we know that for people that are going to switch to an EV if they can, the preferred choice to charge is at home. People want to be able to charge their vehicles at home. So what are some considerations when it comes to owning an EV at your house, as you're trying to decarbonize   Sarah Grant  30:06 Awesome. I'm glad you asked this question, because I was trying to figure out a way how to bring up electric like capacity in a home, knowing that you know, if you do electrify every appliance in if someone does electrify every appliance in their house, they may not need to upgrade. A lot of us are on 100 amp service, and I was able to, you know, install an induction stove switch from gas to induction switch from a gas hot water tank to an electric tank with that drain water heat recovery system and a timer switch from a gas furnace to a heat pump. And we had 100 amps, and we're fine with that. We didn't have any breakers trip or anything. And I've worked with a lot of homes where that's the case. I should just say, even before someone's going to switch to an EV though, the kind of the two main aspects, two main elements that may require an upgrade, would be an EV charger and, um, electric backup, resistance heating. So with a heat pump, they are amazing for so many reasons I've kind of already talked about they're more comfortable, they're quieter. You know, climate fighting machines that work on electricity, but they're not like electric baseboard heaters. They're using one unit of electricity to generate about three units of heat. So they're great. Their capacity isn't as high as as a gas furnace or our propane furnace may be. So if that's the case, and if your house, you haven't been able to do all the things you can to insulate and to reduce heat loss, then the largest heat pump may need to come with an electric resistance heating and these can, if they're working, can draw a lot of electricity. So the way this works with a heat pump is, on a cold day, the heat pump is going to always operate. And then if your thermostat notices, hey, my house isn't able to stay as comfortable. It's not getting to whatever, you know, 22 degrees, it'll then ask for the electric resistance oil to turn on and give a boost to the heat pump. So, um, you're not going to generate like, your bills aren't going to be excessive, like they would be if someone's heating with just electric heating, but larger electric resistance heating requires a pretty big breaker, like a 40-amp sort of thing. So, if, if that's the case, then that may be something that triggers you into the okay, maybe I need to upgrade to 200 amps EV chargers as well. They come in many different forms. We actually I'm just at my in laws cottage, and my father-in-law, very generously, installed an EV charger here, because we were lucky enough to purchase an EV a few months ago and so he put in one that's also on a 40-amp breaker, but you can get ones and put it on a 30 amp breaker, you put on a 50 amp breaker. So with upgrading and with switching everything to electric, I find that's an area that I think things still are evolving and changing. You know, I typically, I was previously doing sort of a what a lot of electricians or HVAC contractors would do with just sort of adding up all the all the aspects on the panel and sort of saying, Okay, well, if you're running your stove and your heat pump and your hot water all at once, here's sort of based on those breakers, here's how much electricity you're going to draw. And if that number is greater than 100 Okay, someone should upgrade which, which tends to be a little bit conservative. So, what we are now doing is, if you have the ability to access your electricity bills and look at sort of your hour-by-hour consumption, there is a way that homeowners can actually figure out, kind of like, what's my peak, what's my worst? Like, draw, I'm probably not using the right terms here, but, um, but. Or you could actually simulate that and just, you know, on a, on a like a really hot day, turn on make sure your air conditioner is running. Turn on. You all your, you know, your dryer, your electric stove, whatever kind of make it the worst-case scenario that you could reasonably see happening in your house and then go on and log into your utility data. And there's a way that you can look at like hour by hour, and it'll tell you your draw and based on that, if you look up online, there's a way to sort of translate that kilowatt draw into amps. And what I've found when I translate people's draw into amps is that like someone who's on 100-amp panel, who's got, you know, their electric dryer and their air conditioner and their induction stove running typically draws between 20 and 40 amps. That's way below the 100 amp. Environment and so upgrading, this is a long winded way of saying upgrading everything you know, from fossil fuels, switching your car, getting an EV charger, may or may not require you to upgrade to 200 amps, but if you have the ability to sort of do a little bit of research online, try and figure out what your draw is, so that, because you may not actually need to upgrade alive, find a lot of contractors are somewhat conservative and are telling people to upgrade before they necessarily need to. And the cost to upgrade can be around five or so $1,000 so at least what I've seen in Toronto and so that kind of cost can actually turn people off.   Trevor Freeman  35:42 Yeah. So, I that's a great point to bring up Sarah. And I think we, we see that, of course, with our customers a lot as well. And I think it's important to know that the quick and easy way to determine if you need a panel upgrade is, as you said, to add up the numbers on the breakers, and if you if you're bumping over 100 yep, that's a panel upgrade. But that's not necessarily the most accurate way, because it's rare that we use the full amount of each breaker. And so looking at your utility data, or having your electrician, your contractor, help you, look at your utility data, can tell you that you maybe don't need a panel upgrade, that you can operate all this equipment that we're talking about on your 100 amp panel, and most utilities in Ontario, at least, I know for you in Toronto, and definitely for any of our listeners in our service territory in Ottawa, you can access Your hourly utility data online through whatever portal you have with your utility. So definitely go and check that out   Sarah Grant  36:47 if you end up realizing that your kind of on the cusp and you may need to upgrade. One of the other things that you could do instead is install a smart switch. So, there are products of their levatron is one that I know of. There are even smart panels that give you at your fingertips through a phone app, the ability to sort of say, oh, okay, I want to charge my car, so maybe I'm going to, sort of not let people draw electricity from other aspects in my home, or vice versa, you can kind of turn off and on your car charger. You can even run your whole panel as well. So, sort of the smart switching aspect is a way that, if you're kind of on that cusp, can enable you to avoid a service upgrade and also get some really cool data at your fingertips as well about your electricity consumption.   Trevor Freeman  37:42 Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up, and I've seen those as well. They're super exciting. And, you know, as a kind of a data nerd, it'd be awesome to have that granular data. And what's every circuit in my house doing? But I think at its most basic, it's basically saying, yeah, like, you can't run your electric clothes dryer and charge your EV at the same time. So it kind of forces one or the other, you know, and whatever slot in whatever piece of equipment you want there, which keeps you under that, that threshold for your panel, no matter what, even if all your things add up to more, you're still going to stay under because it won't let them go on the same time. So that's a great piece of technology. So, I want to quickly ask you about electricity generation and storage, where probably, if anybody kind of wanders around, you're seeing more and more solar panels on roofs. We're hearing more about home battery storage, although that hasn't quite taken off widespread yet, but it is out there. So how would something like that factor into a homeowner's plan?   Sarah Grant  38:42 Yeah, I think that typically, it's kind of one of the later aspects for a homeowner plan. So you know, if you were listening and you're someone who is interested in doing what you can to reduce your carbon footprint, you know the largest things you can do, the single largest thing is to install a heat pump. Get your heating off of off of fossil fuels, and install a heat pump. And, you know, do what you can to reduce your heat loss by adding insulation, making it less leaky. Solar panels are a fantastic complement to that, and I find they, you know, we include them in a clean tech roadmap, and we show people the impact. And some people do choose to do them first just because they're excited, and it is, to some extent, an investment in reduction of your energy bills. So, you know, the sooner you can get the panels on your roof, the sooner you can start to save and no longer spend, you know, and to some extent, also solar panels, at least in Ontario, they're producing their peak amount of electricity at a time when we're using our electricity grid in Ontario, mostly as nuclear and water. But you. Uh, you know, during peak times, we do have some gas power plants that their benefit is to kind of come on quickly and produce electricity really quickly, so that we can make up that that time, say, five o'clock on a really hot August day when everyone comes home from work or six o'clock and turns on their air conditioner and, and, and, but at that same time, solar panels are in peak production. So, you know, I know, I'm sure you've had other podcasts to discuss, sort of our electricity grid, so we don't need to get into more details. But you know, it is something that each can do to offset and reduce that sort of gas peak your plant consumption by putting panels on the roof. And I think a great aspirational goal for everyone would be to be net zero. Just as you know, I know, City of Toronto has a net zero goal as a city overall, so getting each home to net zero would certainly one way to achieve that goal. So there's some savings involved for us. We put panels on, like four years ago, and based on how much we're saving per year and how much we spent, we'll have saved as much in electricity as we spent in 11 to make up the cost in 11 years' time, the cost the return on investment, isn't as great now because we were able to leverage a federal rebate that is no longer available, but For so that'll probably extend the return on investment. For many people to sort of 15 to 20 years' time frame. The reduction in use of our gas peaker plants is another, another benefit and, um, no, I'd say the other like, sort of the pleasant side, again, comfort benefit for us, although I wouldn't say invest in it only for this. It's kept our house more comfortable in the summer. So these solar panels are absorbing the sun's energy, the sun's heat. So it's now no longer the sun's no longer cooking our roof as it used to. And although we did add insulation there, the panels are way more effective at just absorbing that energy. And so our second floor is able to stay a lot more comfortable as well. As far as sort of storage goes, You're right. I'm starting to see more and more batteries. But you know, a few years ago, I hadn't seen really any, any in people's homes. The costs, I know, and sort of the thread tape involved in getting them approved was still quite high. But they are a fantastic option if you do have solar panels, or if you're someone who's concerned about making your house more resilient in the event of a power outage, they're a good option to have, obviously, better than, better than a gas generator, which would be the alternative if you want some form of energy on hand in case the grid goes down. But yeah, this is sort of, I would say, if you're thinking about your house and where solar panels and storage could fit in, I would probably put them sort of later on the list. Again, decarbonize by getting, like, electrify everything in your house as much as possible. Do what you can to insulate and air seal, and if you're lucky enough to have a little bit left over solar and storage are great as well.   Trevor Freeman  43:04 Yeah, it's that's a great way to put it. I certainly look at them as supporting tools to someone looking to decarbonize and electrify their house. To your point, you don't get a lot of carbon reduction just from solar, partly, especially in Ontario, because our grid is primarily clean, primarily carbon free, but during those peak solar production hours, that's also typically our peak emission hours from the grid in Ontario. But what solar panels and storage, to a lesser extent, can do is give you some predictability in your energy costs. So, you're kind of locking some portion of your energy cost in the day you put those panels on, and if electricity prices increase, you've got that predictability based on what you put on your roof. So just getting close to the end of our conversation here today, Sarah, I want to ask you two more questions. One, I alluded to this at the beginning, and as did you there are those scenarios where you haven't done any planning or prep. You know that maybe decarbonizing or moving to a more modern piece of equipment is something you want to do, but you haven't done any work on that, and it's January, and all of a sudden there's no heat coming from your furnace. And you get someone to look at it and they say, yep, you need a new one. What can you do? In that sense, are there contractors out there who can turn around and put a heat pump in as quick as they can put a furnace in? Or are we not there yet? What's kind of on the horizon for folks in that situation?   Sarah Grant  44:36 Yeah, there are a lot of contractors out there who can put in a heat pump as quickly as they would a gas furnace. The rebate program that the federal government offered, which is unfortunately no longer available, did a lot of work to, I would say, get homeowners asking contractors about heat pumps, and that then got a lot of contractors on board with installing key pumps. And. And I'm finding actually, right now, we're in a good space, because a lot of manufacturers brought in a lot of stock, and so there's actually an excess of a supply of heat pumps, so the costs have come down a little bit, which is nice in the absence of rebate. So, yeah, the installation itself is, you know, if you're replacing a gas furnace with heat pump, it's no more or less complicated, to be honest, typically should take about, you know, just into two days, or maybe just under, like, you know, one, a full day, and sort of, and then some. And I would say the sort of the biggest, the biggest lost opportunity is, is, you may not, you may not have a contractor that feels comfortable getting you all the way off of gas. So I find a lot of contractors are more comfortable with recommending what's called a hybrid system, where you would have a heat pump and a gas furnace installed in your house. And in this case, the heat pump will always get the first opportunity to provide heating in a house, but then the gas furnace will kick on. Um, at some point. And I find in this case, like the heat pumps are, tend to be a little bit undersized, and so they may not, it's a bit of a lost opportunity. They may not be able to heat as long into the winter as if it was sort of the right size for your home. And you know, instead of the heat pump going all the way, which is the case if you get all the way off of fossil fuels, it'll switch over to the gas furnace as needed. So just like a hybrid car, you know, with a battery and gas in the car itself, this sort of system is still a great step in the right direction, though. So certainly, if you're stuck in the middle of a winter night or a hot summer's day and you've got no cooling or no heating call around, and you know, if you don't like the first answer, if you have still, there are still some contractors that are misinformed about heat pumps and will sort of say, Oh, well, they don't work greater. But I would say, for the most part, in the last four years, things have changed dramatically, and contractors are now on board, and because they have an excess of supplier are eager to, eager to sell them and install them.   Trevor Freeman  47:05 That's great to hear. And I think the important thing there is you're not going to know unless you ask, and if you don't get that answer the first time, you know, take another couple calls. Try call around, because there are, there are contractors out there who can support you in that. And kind of like you said, this is, you know, when you're replacing your major heating equipment in your house, that's your once in a kind of 10-to-15-year period, if not longer, to get that right. And if you lock yourself into something you didn't really want, then it's hard to hard to change course a few years down the road. So, take the time if you can, to ask those questions. Okay, last question for you here, before we wrap up, I want to zoom out a little bit and talk about just the overall process of retrofitting more homes. You know, you made the point earlier. There's a lot of homes out there. If we can start moving all these homes off fossil fuels, it's going to go a long way towards hitting our climate goals. How do we speed that process up? What programs or regulations or policies have you seen, or would you like to see that and kind of encourage these transitions?   Sarah Grant  48:13 Oh, I love that question. Yeah. I mean, if I had a magic wand and could change things, I would definitely like to see more, more incentives, more zero interest financing out there. You know, the homes that I've seen that have been able to get all the way off of fossil fuels, install solar panels, do what they can to insulate were able to access in the city of Toronto anyway, a zero-interest loan that went up $225,000 came with its own $10,000 incentive. They also accessed what is no longer available, the up to $10,000 incentives. So up to 20k of incentives, zero interest loan, those like of the homes that we work with, they're about 20% that have achieved that kind of like the got to sort of net zero, significant energy reduction, and we're able to, you know, access that level of financing and rebates. Those programs are not available anymore. Or at least, the City of Toronto offers their low interest loan. It's no longer zero interest, and doesn't have the incentives anymore. So that typically showed me that, you know, it's possible, but we do need more financing and support in place for people. You know, there's a there are a lot of great models in Europe and in Germany, the energy sprawl model exists where basically big like panels can be installed on the outside of people's homes that have insulation, that have an air barrier, that kind of come with the Windows already well installed those sort of options as well. If, if, if feasible, can also do a lot to accelerate our rate of decarbonizing or electrifying in in Canada. In that regard, there's a lot happening in the sort of the low income Social. Housing space. And I feel very honored or privileged to be just a small actor in that space and collaborating with many fantastic actors that are not only sort of retrofitting a large number of homes, at least in Toronto, but also treating it as an opportunity to sort of help think about how we can get to scale and how we can accelerate this and so they are changing contractors mindsets and impacting the availability of stock and supply. So, yeah, we need, we need, we do need more policies and support and levers in place, and then, as well, the sort of the contractor industry, there's a lot of training and support that's also needed. So it's a big, it's a big, exciting problem with lots of opportunity, but, yeah, lots of work to happen in order for us to achieve our net zero goals.   Trevor Freeman  50:50 Yeah, I think we have seen that there's a role for funding and financing to help lower that initial barrier of some of this, you know, still fairly nascent technology, although it's becoming more commonplace, but there is a role for those programs, and when they are in place, you know, your experience has shown they work, you're seeing more projects go through when there are funding and financing programs compared to when there aren't. So it's good to know that the programs work, and we just need to see more of them, so that's great. Okay, Sarah, we always wrap up our interviews with kind of a series of questions that I pose to all guests. So as long as you're ready, I'll dive right in. What is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?   Sarah Grant  51:35 That is a great question. That's fun. I'm an avid reader, so it's hard to it's hard to answer this, to be honest, one book that comes to mind that I think everyone should read is called Ishmael. It's a book about a talking gorilla, and it it definitely changed the trajectory of my life. I read it when I was about 20 years old, I think, and in, you know, studying to become an electrical engineer, thinking about my next steps. I was in my last year of university, so maybe I was a bit older, but, yeah, it's a fantastic book that has, I think, still stood the test of time. I come back to it every few years and reread it.   Trevor Freeman  52:18 Awesome. I could be wrong here, my memory is hazy, but that rings a bell. I feel like maybe many, many years ago, you told me about that book. It's possible. I think we, for those of you who don't know this international development thing, Sarah and I did. A lot of us went through that path of being an engineering school and deciding there's got to be something more out there, and I want to have an impact in a different way. And that took a lot of us down to different courses in our lives. But if someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?   Sarah Grant  52:54 Okay, I hope that they're going to offset the emissions, if they're offering or I will offset the emissions, where would I go? I mean, I've always wanted to go to so assuming it's a carbon neutral flight, I've always wanted to go to New Zealand, and I used to play rugby. So I would definitely go catch a few rugby games and watch the All Blacks do their traditional Māori dance and hike the hills and the mountains and just sort of see the, see the landscape in New Zealand.   Trevor Freeman  53:29 Who is someone that you admire?   Sarah Grant  53:32 Okay, so, I mean, this is going to get real, really quick, so I would say, you know, I this is and a bit cheesy, but I'm going to say my kids, I've got three, and they're six, eight and 10, they're all very aware of their role in the world. They go to an alternative school, so perhaps that's part of it, but I just think perhaps it's also just being a kid of this age. And they are the reason we bought an electric car sooner than we could afford, because they started crying when we would go in the gas car, and they were concerned about the emissions. And so, I admire my kids. I admire their awareness and their ability to speak up when, when, when something happens. A few months ago, my partner came out to all of us as a trans person, and this is where I said it was going to get real, pretty quick, because my kids have taken it so well, like, they've taken it in stride. They've My daughter has embraced it. She's like, Oh my God. Now I have two moms I can, like, I'm not the mom that's going to take her to get pedicures, but she now has a mom that can take her to get pedicures. So, it's, I guess what I'm saying is, there was their awareness. and their resilience is astounding.   Trevor Freeman  55:03 Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing both of those things, and I echo that and seeing the way that my kids and kids you know that are aware of this stuff really find ways to identify their role in this and find ways to sort of advocate, even without knowing all the big picture and knowing all the nuance to it. And maybe that's even better, that they're just going based on kind of hard and what they know. So that's fantastic. Thanks for sharing that. Our final question here, before we wrap is, what is something about the energy sector or the work that you do, or something that you see coming in the near future that you're really excited about.   Sarah Grant  55:48 So there's so much to be excited for. So, um, one thing that is that is giving me a lot of excitement is, is the low income, the social housing work that I'm involved in because, because of the potential to help accelerate things, because we're all working in a very different way, I think traditionally, you know, and in any space, there's a lot of competition, but all of us who are working, whether It's I'm working with some architects, with some contractors, the owners, their land trust organizations, of these buildings, everyone is operating with the idea that, you know, we should be collaborating. And so there's a lot of knowledge sharing, a lot of investing in each other's awareness and connections. And, you know, it's net it's net positive. It's resulting in a lot more than if we were kind of just, like, holding our cards close and being like, Oh, you hired me to do this, and I don't want to tell you how I did it, because then maybe you're not going to hire me next time I'm happy, if I get worked out of a job to some extent. And what it means for gold trench energy is that we need to kind of keep adapting. Like, four years ago, the conversations I was having with homeowners are very different from the conversations now, and that's amazing, because four years ago, people didn't, lot of people didn't know about heat pumps, and I know that's still the case, but a lot of people that were hiring us didn't know, and now, four years later, they do, and so that evolving knowledge and enhancing Understanding and the fact that there are people out there who are working in a collaborative manner, I think that's going to get us a lot farther, faster, and honestly, it's just way more fun to collaborate with people.   Trevor Freeman  57:32 Yeah, totally. I echo that. I've said it on this podcast before. That one thing I've noticed having been kind of in this space now for close to 15 years in the sort of energy building sector, it feels like things are moving faster and more widespread. There are more people that are aware of the need to decarbonize. There are more people working on that. There are more people working on it in different ways, which is really exciting to see. So that's something definitely that I'm also quite excited about. So Sarah, it's been great chatting today. Thanks so much for sharing your experience and telling us a little bit more about what you do. And yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time to chat.   Sarah Grant  58:15 You're welcome. Thanks for having me.   Trevor Freeman  58:17 Thanks, Sarah, thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroauttawa.com  

Wrestling 14-foot 'dinosaurs' to figure out why they're dyingDr. Madison Earhart, a postdoctoral fellow from the University of British Columbia,  spent her summer fishing for enormous white sturgeon in the Fraser and Nechako Rivers in British Columbia. Since 2022, there have been a large number of deaths of this fish along the west coast of North America and it's concerning when a species that's been around for hundreds of million years suddenly starts dying off. She and her colleagues are trying to figure out what's happening and how to conserve this important and spectacular fish.Installing Dark Matter detectors two kilometeres undergroundDr. Madeleine Zurowski of the University of Toronto has been underground most of this past summer at  SNOLAB, located in Sudbury, Ontario. She's been helping install specially designed dark matter detectors in a project called SuperCDMS, as part of an international collaboration that is researching the nature of dark matter. Managing Canada's worst invasive plant with mothsAs Director of the Waterloo Wetland Laboratory, Dr. Rebecca Rooney has been investigating how to stop the spread of a plant called invasive Phragmites, which chokes wetlands, ditches and many other environments. Her group has introduced  European moths which eat the plant. This summer PhD student Claire Schon and lab technician Ryan Graham went into the field to collect some more data on their project.Helicoptering in 35 tonnes of material in an attempt to restore a Sudbury peatland  Scientists are working to restore a degraded peatland damaged by contamination from mining activity in Sudbury. Colin McCarter, the project lead from Nipissing University, described how they're trying to figure out how to best restore these toxic metal-contaminated landscapes to restore their natural capacity as wildfire-buffering, carbon-storing powerhoues.  Transatlantic balloon flight from Sweden to NunavutDr Kaley Walker is an atmospheric physicist from the University of Toronto. Working with the Canadian Space Agency, this summer she was in Sweden to send a massive balloon — 30 stories tall and 800,000 cubic meters in volume — on a high-altitude transatlantic flight to Nunavut, to measure stratospheric gases.The accidental discovery of an ancient Roman monument's missing limbDr. Sarah Murray  is the co-director of an archeological project on the history of Porto Rafti, Greece. While surveying for Bronze Age relics, her team discovered an enormous missing limb from a famous Roman marble statue in the area, a monument popular with tourists for centuries. This summer, they returned with drones to make 3D models of the statue, to understand how the arm was attached to the statue's now limbless torso.Canadian astronaut Jeremy Hansen gets lunar geology training in IcelandAstronauts assigned to NASA's Artemis II mission, who'll be heading to the moon as early as September 2025, embarked on their own field research this summer in Iceland to train as lunar geologists. CSA astronaut Jeremy Hansen documented his adventure and filled us in on why this training is crucial for their upcoming mission.Building wildfire resistant housingAfter wildfires devastated Lytton, BC in 2021, the  government announced that they were going to support homeowners to rebuild homes that would be resistant to wildfire. Senior Engineer Lucas Coletta of Natural Resources Canada, was part of the team that tested various fire resilient materials and construction methods this past spring and summer.

We take you to Conche on the Northern Peninsula... where one man says thousands of Monarch butterflies have descended on his property. Then we speak with an insect expert and research scientist at Natural Resources Canada about the unusual visitors to these parts. (Krissy Holmes with Gerard Clements and Joe Bowden)

Summer rewind: Ontario's electricity sector is evolving, as the province navigates the transition to cleaner energy amidst rising demand. In thinkenergy episode 135, we explore the grid's structure and key players, highlighting the crucial role of distributors (Local Distribution Companies or LDCs) in facilitating this transition. Guest Teresa Sarkesian, President and CEO of the Electricity Distributors Association (EDA), sheds light on LDCs' frontline efforts and contributions shaping the energy landscape. Related links   Teresa Sarkesian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teresa-sarkesian-53898613/   Electricity Distributors Association: https://www.eda-on.ca/  Green Button information: https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-information-and-protection/green-button  Electrification and energy transition panel report: https://www.ontario.ca/document/ontarios-clean-energy-opportunity-report-electrification-and-energy-transition-panel  Ontario Electricity Support Program: https://ontarioelectricitysupport.ca/  Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en     To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod     Trevor Freeman Hey everyone. Well, it's officially summer, and the think energy team is taking a break to recharge over the next two months, but also to plan our content for the fall. So stay tuned for some great episodes in the fall. Not to worry, though, we still have our summer rewind to keep you engaged. This is where we pick out some of the great past episodes that we've done and repost them. So whether you're lucky enough to be sitting on a dock or going on a road trip or if you're just keeping up with your commute through the summer, it's a great time to revisit our past content. You will hear past episodes from my predecessor and the host chair, Dan Sagan, as well as a couple of mine from the past few months, and you're welcome to check out your own favorite past episodes as well. Wherever you get your podcasts. We hope you have an amazing summer, and we'll be back with new content in September, and until then, happy listening.   Trevor Freeman  0:07   Hi, welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, at think energy at hydro ottawa.com Hi, everyone, welcome back. Now it's no secret that Ontario's electricity sector is transforming rapidly as it moves to both decarbonize the grid itself, you know, we have a very clean grid in Ontario, but it's not totally carbon free. And to support the growing demand for electricity as our customers across the province, take steps to electrify and change how they use energy. The show is all about exploring those changes, among other things, and today is no different. But before we dive into our conversation today, I think it would be helpful for me to spend just a few quick minutes on some basics about how our electricity grid is structured in Ontario, and who some of the key players are. Now I know some of our listeners will know this already, but it can be hard to keep track of all those key players. And Ontario's structure is a little different than some of the neighboring jurisdictions no two jurisdictions are exactly alike. So, a refresher is never a bad thing. Now the most basic description is that electricity is largely generated at central generation facilities. So, think nuclear power plants are your electric generating stations, some gas fired generating stations and large-scale wind and solar installations. We call these entities generators simple as that. That electricity is then transmitted across the province in an interconnected grid of high voltage transmission lines, which also connect to other jurisdictions such as neighboring provinces and states, and Ontario, Hydro One runs the transmission network. Now you've probably seen this transmission network. These would be the large metal towers that you see out in the middle of a field when you're driving along the highway or in rural areas that have electricity wires strung way up high in the air. The last stage before it gets to the end user is called distribution. So, this is where electricity is taken from those high voltage lines stepped down to a usable voltage for residential and commercial customers via transformers and substations, and then distributed over a network of overhead and underground wires, then these would be the wires that you would see at the top of those wooden or composite poles that are along the side of the road in your neighborhood. The entities that run this distribution part are called distributors, again, simple as that. So, there's a few other key players that are worth mentioning here. Energy Policy is primarily the jurisdiction of the provincial government, who sets the general direction and associated rules and regulations accordingly. The Ontario Energy Board or OEB is the regulatory body who governs what all those other players do and enacts the government mandate. And finally, at least for today's purposes, we have the system operator. It's called The Independent Electricity System Operator in Ontario, or IESO, who runs the system. So, if you're in Windsor, Ontario, or Ottawa, or North Bay, and you want to turn on your air conditioner, or plug your EV in to charge, the IESO is responsible for making sure there's enough power on the grid to handle that load. So, I hope everyone is still with me and feel free to pause and do some jumping jacks if that was a lot to take in. Our conversation today is going to be focused on the role of the distributor. So, for full disclosure, as you know, I work for hydro Ottawa who is one of those distributors, we serve most electricity customers in the City of Ottawa, and the neighboring village of Casselman and in Ontario, you will often hear distributors referred to as local distribution companies or LDCs. So forgive me if I slip into that acronym throughout the conversation today, that's really just the sort of common name that we refer to those distributors as. But I'll try to mix it up and make sure that, that I'm explaining that acronym throughout as well. So the distributor is really the front line, the customer facing entity of the entire electricity system. If you are an electricity customer, and you think about the electricity system, you are probably thinking about your distributor. Chances are you get your bill from a distributor, even though for most customers, most of what you pay on that bill doesn't actually go to the LDC. Some of it stays with your local distribution company, but most of it goes to the transmitter to the generator, to the IESO etc. When the power goes out, it's probably your LDC that you call and it's your LDC that will give you a restoration time. Sometimes outages are caused by issues up the line, so to speak in the transmission portion of the grid. But often the issue is a localized one. And it's your LDC that is identifying the problem and fixing it, whether that means rolling a truck to string new cable, or performing switching to work around the problem. And finally, it's your LDC that is really on the frontlines of the energy transition. While all parts of the grid must then have started to change, the LDCs are really working hand in hand with our customers to identify where and how fast and new demand is needed to bridge that gap between customers and policymakers to enable more and more renewable generation. And also to determine what new technologies or programs we need to pilot and scale up. And it's really the LDCs that are driving change in the way that electricity is managed at the individual customer level moving forward. So to help us make some sense of this, I'm happy to have Teresa Sarkesian on the show today. Teresa is the president and CEO of the electricity Distributors Association, which is a role that she's held since 2016. This is actually Teresa second time on the show the first being back in December 2021. So we're happy to have Teresa back, Teresa, welcome back to the show.   Teresa Sarkesian  6:23   Thanks so much, Trevor. I'm really delighted to be back.    Trevor Freeman  6:27   Yeah, we're glad to have you. So, like I said, you were back on our show in 2021. I don't know if it's because of how COVID has changed our lives or if this is just the way things go. But sometimes, you know, weeks seem like years. So 2021 is a long time ago. Let's start by refreshing our listeners on the role and mandate of the electricity Distributors Association.   Teresa Sarkesian  6:49   Sure thing so the electricity Distributors Association, or the EDA our little acronym represents Ontario's public and private electric utilities that distribute electricity to 5.4 million homes, businesses and institutional customers across the province. And I should note that those 5.4 million customers really refers to build accounts so you have families that are behind a build account. So effectively the millions and millions of Ontarians and businesses that operate and live here are customers of our utilities. And as you know our members are on the front lines of power, and have developed a strong trust with their customers by providing safe, reliable and affordable service for over 100 years. The EDA itself provides analysis and networking and advocacy for our members to ensure that the energy policy direction and framework in Ontario is fair and balanced, supporting the financial viability of utilities to deliver service and ensuring affordability for customers. And long term, we are looking to ensure that our local distribution company members can become the premier energy solution providers to their customers, and that they're able to provide the value-added services that customers are already expecting from them but are going to grow with the energy transformation and electrification in the future.    Trevor Freeman  8:09   Yeah, it's kind of like I said, when people think about the electricity sector, they're probably thinking about their distributor. And the EDA is kind of that common voice for those distribution companies. So, you first joined the EDA back in 2009, and have been the president and CEO since 2016. So, we'll look ahead and talk about the future in a minute. But before we do that, tell us about how things have changed so far during your tenure. How are things different from 2009 When you first joined the organization?   Teresa Sarkesian  8:40   Yeah, and you know, this is almost like perfect timing, Trevor, because I've been at the association now for 15 years, I'm just marking my 15-year anniversary. So, feels really apropos to kind of reflect and look back. So, I want to break down my answer into two parts. So, I'm going to talk to you about some, I guess, just my own personal observations about the electricity system at large. And then I'm going to talk more about the changes in distribution. But some of the changes that I thought were really quite significant and profound, sort of when I joined the industry in 2009, I joined at a time when there was the Green Energy Act, and the province was looking to connect all kinds of renewable energy generation to the electricity grid. So that was fairly significant. Another thing that was happening with the province is that they closed down coal fired generation. That was pretty massive. In fact, I think, at the time, it was the largest kind of carbon reduction initiative in North America. And I think even to this date today, I think it still is something that Ontario really has to be proud of. Another thing that you know, at the time, I think that was you know, fairly significant in 2015 is just the expectation of what the demand would be. What was interesting, sort of like the past for 15 years, the demand from customers for electricity was actually flat or declining. And that's all changed. Now. 15 years later, we're, we're now forecasting, massive increases in in demand of energy, which could potentially be doubling in the future. And the other point I'd like to make is just the nuclear renaissance that we're having. I think when I joined the sector in 2009, I'll tell you, I think the public opinion of nuclear was actually quite low. And that's been completely turned around lots of geopolitical events around the world, I think, have driven that. And now that nuclear is having a huge Renaissance. And you're seeing, you know, lots of new investments in nuclear. And we're not talking about shutting down reactors anymore. We're talking about refurbishing and expanding. So those are some of the things that I've observed over the last 15 years that have really changed. And for local distribution companies, I think what I have seen is a growing expectation by both government and the regulators for electric utilities to do more to both support the grid reliability and meet growing expectation from customers. So, I started in the sector in 2009, it was right on the brink of implementation of smart meters, and time of use. And what was interesting is that was mandated, there were very few jurisdictions in the world that actually had mandated smart meters and time of use pricing. So again, Ontario is was one of the first. And so that was a big change for LDCs. To move from, you know, smart meters and having to bring in that technology and also support the technology of time of use. I did mention the Green Energy Act at the time, we suddenly had to connect 1000s and 1000s, of new solar and wind generation, as well. And that was all new. There were no protocols, there were no standards for that. So that was fairly significant as well. And when I kind of fast forward to I guess, more recently, there have been a lot of changes from government, I think they've really supported our industry, they understand the trust that we have, with our customers. And they've implemented, you know, a number of new changes in terms of rate structures, they've asked us to implement ultra low-rate pricing that can support overnight electric vehicle charging. And they've also asked us to introduce a green button digital platform that allows customers to download their energy data and share with third parties for you know, different assessments and tools for lowering energy costs. But it's all not, you know, unicorns and kittens, there's challenges to for our sector, grid resilience was, you know, not really, people talked about it in 2009, but not like they're talking about it now, because of climate change. And we are seeing more frequent storms, causing, you know, obviously, outages for the customer, and also significant damage to the distribution grid. And I know that hydro Ottawa has faced more than its fair share of very destructive storms over the past few years, we have Yes, I can't remember which Victoria Day weekend where we had, I didn't ever know how to say it the derecho or the derecho. So there, we weren't getting storms we've never even heard of before. And unfortunately, I think that is our new normal. So, grid resilience is something that we are very concerned about, and we need to make sure we've got the appropriate investments for that. So those are just a few of the highlights that, you know, when I came into the sector sort of things that were kind of ramping up, and then what's happening now, but I guess what I could say, the commonality is there's constant change in the sector. And what I'm seeing going forward is that change is going to be accelerated.    Trevor Freeman  13:40   Yeah, I mean, it's, it's fascinating to listen to you lay it all out like that. Thinking back to 15 years ago, it's hard to even remember, you know, not having smart meters, having meters that really just ticked forward and measured your consumption over the course of a month, and someone would come and read that. And, you know, having declining or even flat demand profiles that aren't increasing is so different from the world that we are in today. But I think what you said there at the end is really important. We are in our industry, an organization that knows about change, we're constantly changing, which helps us as we look forward into your point, we're going to see that level of change and the pace of change accelerate. So, I think that sets us up pretty well. So, let's start to look forward, then I know that the EDA is about to launch a new vision paper. So, we're going to dive into some of the details. But maybe let's start by kind of a high-level summary of what is the vision that you are trying to lay out with this paper?   Teresa Sarkesian  14:42   Okay, and no problem. So, I think what I want to start just give a little bit of background as to why we did this. We've done a couple of vision papers and implementation plans in the past. But you know, they were like seven, eight years ago and things have changed a lot even in Seven or eight years. So, what we've been seeing, obviously, I think the big change over the last few years has been the big focus on meeting Net Zero targets in 2050, that we are going to get to net zero in terms of our greenhouse gas emissions. Not only in Canada, but this is actually a bit of a global commitment, you know, for countries that have signed on to that objective. So, what happens when you set up, you know, those big audacious goals? You have all kinds of organizations and entities looking at how are we going to get there, how much it's going to cost? What do we need to do to get there? And so when we started reviewing some of these publications, both in Ontario, Canada, and actually in other jurisdictions, they were very good. They talked about what supply mix that we need the investment in transmission, but almost 100% of the papers, Trevor, if you can believe this, just neglected distribution, no one talked about distribution, they didn't talk about how distribution is going to have to change what the investments would be. And then we'll so we said it's going to be critical for us to identify the electric utility role and the energy transition, and how the sector will need to be grid ready to support electrification, economic development, grid resilience, and customer preferences. So we view that LDCs are going to be pivotal in enabling Ontario's low carbon economy, navigating the challenges posed by climate policies, electrification trends, and these evolving customer demands. And with Ontario's growing economy and the demands for housing intensify, LDCs must innovate to effectively meet these accelerating electricity needs and changing preferences. And right now, we've seen the ISO is predicting significant consumption growth from 144 terawatt hours in 2023, to 240 terawatt hours and 2050 not quite double, but it's getting close. And so this rapid growth demands urgent attention to adopt new strategies and to ensure that the local distribution companies can make the necessary investments in grid enhancements to expand the capacity and capability of the distribution system. So while reliability and affordability remain Paramount customers do expect additional value from their utility service. And, you know, we are seeing all sorts of things that are happening, you know, such as the need for swift electric vehicle charging installation, and other upgrades that will increase the electrical load. We see that LDCs are more frequently interacting with businesses that seek utility partners to achieve their energy management, sustainability and ESG goals. And in parallel, the LDC must prepare to respond to increase climate change induced extreme weather events. So recognizing the essential role of LDCs in the energy transition, we've worked in collaboration with industry experts to outline a vision of the role of utilities, so they can enable economic development, housing growth and electrification. And the report identifies urgent and practical steps that LDCs in partnership with the government, and its agencies must take in the near term to achieve the benefits of this transition. So what you'll see in the paper is recommendations related to the need for clear policy direction on regulatory frameworks to support LDCs in becoming grid ready, and with a continued focus on affordability and enabling a customer choice and opportunity. And we also discuss issues like workforce needs. And we also emphasize the role of human capital in enabling technological advancements. So that's very high level what it is, and I will get into it a bit more as we have our discussion further.   Trevor Freeman  18:41   Yeah, I think it's a good way to frame it of the entire sector is changing at all levels. But what you're really doing is laying out that vision that roadmap for the distributors, in particular, and I think that's great. Maybe like, Who is the audience for this paper? Who are you kind of directing this at?   Teresa Sarkesian  18:59   Well, we're still putting the crossing the T's and dotting the I's., but I think it's about 80 pages. So, it's not going to be for everyone, obviously, you know, government decision makers, government, policymakers, people that work in their regulatory agencies and our energy board, the Independent Electricity System Operator, we did try to make it accessible. There is an executive summary that's about two or three pages, which I think will be of great interest to a lot of people to read. And I think it gives a very kind of a high-level overview of what's in the document. So that's something that we're trying to do. And, you know, obviously our LTC members are an audience as well. They've been working with us hand in glove the last few months we've had extensive member meetings we had a board committee that helped steer this paper. But you know, ultimately, the paper is really focused on our customers because its customers and businesses that are driving a lot of this change for the future, whether it's businesses that are on their own journey on environmental, social and governance ESG objectives, and they're looking for more low carbon communities to invest in its customers who are very interested in EV charging, and maybe what the opportunity for the batteries can be to sell that storage back to the grid. It's, it's really the customers that are driving this change.    Trevor Freeman  20:31   Right Yeah, and I mean, the nature of this medium is I don't know who's out there listening. But I'd encourage, you know, all of our listeners, when this comes out, take a look at it and get some insight into kind of how the distributors role is laid out there. So let's dive into some of the details. You know, you outline obviously, some of the traditional roles and functions of the LDCs. So from maintaining, owning and maintaining the infrastructure, the poles and wires, and doing customer metering and billing, that stuff's not going away, we're gonna keep doing those things. But you also highlight some of these emerging roles that have begun to appear, or that we'll see in the next couple of years, you know, a more of a focus on distributed energy resources, like solar on roofs, for example, that LDCs are going to have to work to both enable as well as integrate into our own systems. It's going to include things like more customer programs, and rate design, etc. I'm curious, you know, how are LDCs going to balance that traditional role that we've already been doing, along with this rapidly new expanding set of roles that we need to tackle?    Teresa Sarkesian  21:38   That's a great question, Trevor. So look, LDCs will continue, as we always have been to be responsible for safe, reliable and affordable delivery of electricity to customers, customers can count on us to do that 24/7. And even with all these anticipated grid expansions, we're not going to be shut down, if the critic dispatches so, you know, we're experts at multitasking in our sector, and we will continue to do so. And with the increases, as you mentioned, in distributed energy resources, and electrification, there are the pressures for us to adapt, modernize and change how we ensure the safety and reliability in the service to customers. And the emerging roles and responsibilities aren't something that's in the distant future. You know, as I mentioned before, changes the constant, we have been engaging in ongoing adaptation. And so when I think about the future, and I think about what we call grid modernization, it really is part of the ongoing continuous improvement, and the pursuit of the digital utility of the future, that every utility is on that journey. So you know, utilities have been bringing in new technologies, particularly related to information technology, communications, and digital solutions. And so while we're in early stages, we are expecting our members to become more digitally based in the future, they're going to be introducing advanced distribution management systems to monitor the grid. And they're also going to have distributed energy resource management systems to monitor all the connections that are behind the meter. So I think what is different now than in the past, is simply that the pace of change is being dramatically accelerated. So for example, it took us about 100 years to get the grid to its current size, yet, we need to almost double the current grid in 25 years. So we have to move four times as fast. And the grid is not going to be built with just simple poles and wires and one way energy flow like it has been for basically the last 100 years, it's going to be a lot more complex, we're going to see two way energy flows, so it's not just us sending power to the customer one way, they're potentially going to be selling back their energy generation or their energy storage back onto the grid. So we need to have that temerity, that two way, power flow. So that's going to be a big change. And we also expect there to be a lot more customer interaction. They want to leverage their own generation and storage behind the meter. And we as utilities, want to be able to leverage that to help us with you know, reliability, Storm outage, other emergency situations. So we see there's going to be a greater interactive relationship with customer than simply, you know, maybe sending a bill to them or offering them conservation programs, it's going to be much more dynamic than it has been in the past. And so, you know, over the last two decades, and we talked about this a bit already, the utility has been modernizing the system in response to government policy initiatives, regulatory requirements, and customer preferences. One other example, recently, utilities were required to implement something called green button. And we've been also engaging by bringing them more into the system through net metering. And a lot of our members are also involved in various pilot projects with the Independent Electricity System Operator and with Enercan to look at all kinds of new LTC models and functions. So and you're going to see a lot of this actually, in our vision paper is that to really be effective, cost effective. To make sure this happens at the accelerated pace, we do need for there to be proactive policy and regulatory changes, to remove barriers and empower LDCs to embrace these new evolving roles in shaping the future of the energy sector. And as I mentioned before, customers are demanding it. And I want to point out a research report that came out by the International Energy Agency just late last year. And they made it very clear that in quite a number of countries around the world, the lack of the regulatory permission to provide more investments in the distribution system is now becoming a significant barrier to new renewable energy projects connecting on the system. And while we don't have that situation here in Ontario, if we don't start moving quickly, in terms of reforming the regulatory context, then we might be like some of these other countries, and we don't want to be that a barrier, you want to be able to enable what our customers want on the grid.    Trevor Freeman  26:07   Yeah, so I'm going to ask you a question about that last point in a minute. But I think your framing of the ways that the sector is going to change, and the way our customers are going to interact with us is going to change is really great. And it's something that you know, often comes up in conversation. And I often say, there is no single strategy or tool here, we can't solve the coming challenges with just more poles and wires. We can't solve it with just new innovative solutions, we need all of those things, we need more poles and wires. But we also need more programming, more innovation, more technology, we need to utilize those distributed energy resources out there on the grid. So, I think that's a great way to frame it. Okay, so let's talk about grid planning a little bit. So LDCs play a really key role in helping forecast the needs of the future, both for our own distribution systems, but also feeding up into those broader provincial needs. So, the insight that we gain from our customers, we pass up to the IESO, for example, so that they can do planning at the provincial level. Traditionally, this is a pretty consistent process. You know, in the past, we get a sense from municipalities and developers, how cities are going to expand and grow. And we've generally been able to count on the typical home using roughly the same amount of electricity as homes that are out there today. So, we account for a certain expansion of commercial customers based on the Intel that we get from those customers. And we know roughly what they're going to use. The problem is that model's kind of being turned on its head a little bit. So, we now need to account for even our existing customers increasing their load because they are electrifying or they want to add EV chargers. And new developments today are likely going to have increased demand compared to some of the historical developments, because we're going to see all electric communities or at the very least more electrified and uses. So I know you don't have a crystal ball yet that tells us exactly how this change is going to happen. But what are LDCs doing to adapt their long term grid planning to account for this uncertainty?   Teresa Sarkesian  28:22   Yeah, you're so right, Trevor forecasting is getting more challenging. And I just want to start with a little story before I get into my answer about that. So, you know, electric vehicles are kind of the hot thing right now. And you know, although people I think are still on a waiting list for certain cars, there's lots of others that are available. And so one of the concerns that our sector had was we didn't know where these electric vehicles were going to pop up. And we weren't getting any kind of pre advanced warning when people started making orders or, you know, advanced purchases for electric vehicles. So we actually did a great advocacy campaign, with the province with both the Ministry of Energy of the Ministry of Transportation, to secure postal code data for utility, so they could see where people were going to be purchasing electric vehicles to help them with their own planning, in terms of, you know, making sure that their local feeders were upgraded their local transformers, and so that just got announced a year ago. But that's obviously not going to be good enough. And that just tells us about electric vehicles, you know, in the near term, but this is I think, you know, having sightlines into our customer behavior, whether we do that proactively with you know, consultations and communications with customers, or we can do it by you know, pinging the meter, or getting data such as postal codes. We are going to have to, you know, adapt and have greater visibility and sightlines into the customer. And so this is that some of that technology that I was talking about earlier, the sophisticated future grid is going to need lots of visibility and transparency, for usage and investment to be able to, you know, look at these two way power flows, look at how customers are behaving, in order to better plan the system, we also need to maximize and optimize the data that we have, you know, from our planners, it's going to be vital to protecting the grid reliability and resilience, we're going to have to have more partnerships with municipalities, in terms of their energy planning for the future and things that they want for their community. And, you know, one of the things that we're asking for on our paper is actually to, you know, rethink the distribution system plan, that the utilities have to file with the OMB every five years, and start building in a, you know, Grid Modernization plan within that broader plan. So we can get the regulator to start looking ahead and seeing what these requests are, it'll be important to also have various performance metrics and filing guidelines for grid modification from the energy board. So you know, these are some of the things I think that the membership is going to have to look at but it is going to be a very iterative experience, because it's just it's the pace of change is the big unknown. And so everyone talks about these things. But you know, I saw something today, I think it was from Ford Motor Company, and they're kind of slowing down, it's taken them a while to retool their plants. So that could take an extra two years now for them to be up and running and producing electric vehicles. So there's going to be all these other pieces of the puzzle that are constantly going to be changing a moving and evolving. It is I think, planning for the future is going to be very challenging. And I do expect the province to start talking about this higher level, maybe starting at the end of this year, they just came off a massive exercise related to the energy transition electrification panel. And I do expect to see more guidance from the province as well, in terms of how they're going to manage this planet, because it's not just planning for us. It's planning for everybody else in the system, too.    Trevor Freeman  32:02   Yeah. And for listeners out there, if you haven't had a look at that energy transition electrification panel reports, a really fascinating read. So I'd encourage you to take a look at it. You mentioned a lot of interesting things there. So for our listeners, and I'll probably do a future episode on this so I won't get into detail, but LDCs typically have to file five year rate applications once every five years that really lay out their plans for those five years and how they're going to fund them. So coincidentally, hydro Ottawa was getting ready to do our next one. And like I said, I'll probably talk about that on a future episode. But one thing we did when it comes to forecasting is, we conducted a electrification study that looks at if we electrify by 2050, like our plans, say we will and you know, society wise, what does that mean for the grid? And some of the inputs we took is, you know, what are the federal plans for electrification? What are our own municipal plans for electrification? What are we hearing from our customers, and that really, is helping us modify and change how we do grid forecasting, based on some of the changes that we're seeing from our customers. So I think this is a really important piece that, like you said, we're going to need to iterate on we're not going to get it right the first time. But we're starting to think of how do we need to change the way we do things in order to keep up with what our customers are doing.   Teresa Sarkesian  33:28   I think one thing I've seen more of the last few years, because this is much more complex than it's been in the past that I've seen, like the IESO, for example, they've done more, you know, scenario setting. So when they've had their, you know, their APO's and AER safe, they sort of had other two or three scenarios, and they're constantly updating their numbers every year. So these are other changes that we're starting to see. And even myself, I was just looking at the provincial budget detail the other day, they also set out, you know, scenarios as well. They're just not picking Oh, it's going to be, you know, X amount of deficit. And you know in 2028 they're actually forecasting out different scenarios. So I think that's another piece I see more in play, that people will, you know, showcase what assumptions they have, and will have maybe two or three different scenarios as well.    Trevor Freeman  34:21   Yeah, and I think it's a, it's a great way to tackle that unknown component to where we've never really been through a change like this before. We've never wholesale changed the way we use energy in our society. So there's a degree of uncertainty, obviously, and I think, targeting out that kind of, let's call it high, medium, low scenario, or whatever the metric might be, is going to be really critical for us to make sure we're staying within the boundaries of what's possible and what's probable and refining that constantly as we move forward. So that's a great point. Something else you mentioned a little bit ago, that's, you know, could be a bit of a nebulous term is grid modernization now I've actually got a future episode, and specifically about grid modernization and what hydro Ottawa is doing, I think it might actually be our next one. So we don't need to go into all the details on this. But let's just help our listeners understand what do we mean when we're talking about grid modernization? And why is this important? Why is it important to our customers that we do this kind of back office improvement?   Teresa Sarkesian  35:23   So I'm going to keep it really simple, because I know you're going to do a deep dive on it and a future episode. But essentially, Grid Modernization are improvements that LDCs will make simply to augment our capabilities, and enable us to offer new or improved services to customers. So back office improvements might look like things like real time sensing, and monitoring systems to improve efficiency and reliability. Or we may be investing in new digital infrastructure communication systems to improve safety, cybersecurity, it can also include more visible improvements to safeguard our infrastructure against extreme weather, and climate change to reduce outages. And like one, I guess, example that some of your customers might already be recognizing, you know, we made investments in green button, which enables customers to download their data, send it to a third party if they want to save on customer use. So it really is the whole soup to nuts, it really is not just one type of technology or solution. It is a combination of a whole series of things that the that the utility will need to do. And I think why we want to do it, I think when we look at all of the pressures on the system, from NetZero objectives to housing priorities, you know, to accelerate broadband development, and support electrification, the pressures seems to be never ending. And the only way that we can respond to all those pressures, is to be grid ready. And, you know, like I said, it's it is a form of continuous improvement. It's just that now it's the pace accelerated pace is such so extraordinary, that we need to have a more dedicated plan. But most importantly, we have to make sure we have dedicated attention by policymakers and regulatory decision makers as well. Because right now, there isn't that dedicated attention to this very important task. Yeah,   Trevor Freeman  37:28   Yeah, I mean, it's, it's great that you bring up all these pressures that we're feeling that it's I think it's time we kind of talk about that elephant in the room, our customers often ask us about affordability, or we're hearing from our customers about affordability, I was actually at a customer event not too long ago, and talking about the change that we're going to see here talking about some of this, you know, large scale transition of our of our energy sector. These are not small investments that we have to make. We're talking about both an increase of our infrastructure, you know, you mentioned almost doubling the capacity of the grid. We're talking about modernizing our grid systems, that's a lot of back office work with new technology, and bringing on new programs. Like this is a big change. Energy affordability is already a kind of a challenge today for some folks. So as we get into this new investment that we have to make as we start moving down the path of the energy transition, how do we balance affordability, especially for our vulnerable populations, with the level of investment that we know is necessary to do the things that we have to do? Yes,   Teresa Sarkesian  38:42   Yes, that's the multibillion-dollar question, Trevor. And it's something I'm going to carve out my response, because there's some things that we've put into our vision paper for the future, because affordability is absolutely critical. And as you know, this is basically a massive restructuring of the economy going forward. So, there's may be other participants who might be playing a funding role. So, you know, right now, obviously, you know, customers aren't monolithic, and you know, residential customers who are struggling to pay bills. Do you have some programs that they can, that they can access, they have the low income Energy Assistance Program, they have the Ontario electricity support program. Some of those are funded by the tax base, some are funded by other electricity customers. The province also gives a rebate to customers in Ontario, and that's a pretty big rebate. I don't think a lot of residential customers are aware of it but it is over 7 billion annually to residential small business customers. That's a lot of money. But I don't know if customers really appreciate that. So I don't know what's going to be available going forward. These are some of the challenges that you know policy makers, you know, have to address as well. So, when we were thinking about this as part of our paper, we sort of looked at it from a number of perspectives. So, the federal government has set up all these Net Zero targets, they've set out, you know, targets for electric vehicle manufacturing, as well. And so it might be appropriate for them to share part of the burden with this massive energy transformation. And it's interesting, we actually pulled customers about 2000 Customers two years ago, we asked them a whole series of questions about the changes going forward. And customers do have different perspectives about who should be paying for some of this energy transition. So when we asked them about who should be paying for electric vehicle, charging infrastructure, and they said, Oh, electricity, customers should pay for that, because that's something that everyone's going to benefit from. When we ask them about, you know, who should be paying for the electricity grid, to address climate change and hit Net Zero targets, they actually the majority, 58% said, the taxpayer should be paying for that. So I think that's just a very interesting data point. But it's something that, you know, we've been active on in terms of having those conversations with the federal government, saying that, you know, you have offered different subsidies to attract different companies to invest in Ontario, based on our clean grid, but we need to have the whole grid support it. So, you know, we're pursuing federal government support, we also are looking at increased maybe private equity engagement in in our sector. So right now, we have a couple of private members, but there's not a lot of private equity money in the sector, most of our members are municipally owned, and municipalities can't invest in their utility, probably even if they wanted to, because they're in short supply of funds as well, they have their own taxpayer that they have to deal with. So one of the solutions we are putting forward to government is to increase the private equity threshold, so it doesn't trigger additional taxes, right now, it's only 10% ownership. But we're saying that maybe a tool in the toolbox should be up to 49% ownership. So it would allow private equity to come the patient capital, they're not maybe looking to seek a return right away. So there's some you know, flexibility there as well. Another thing we're looking at is to revisit the debt equity ratios of utilities to manage the costs over the long term. So you'd be effectively amortizing on some of those grid investments as well. So these are some of the ideas that we have around how we can basically fund the energy transition going forward. You know, and some people say, Well, if you could get customers to think about their energy usage holistically, so if they're going to be, you know, moving away from a, you know, a combustion engine car, and they're going to be using heat pumps, instead of, you know, natural gas heating in their home, if you could get people to think holistically what they're saving on the kind of, you know, GHG side of things, versus what they are going to be spending on electricity, they may actually be spending less if they look at it holistically, but I don't really know, to be honest with you, so that I'd rather focus on the things that we could ask government for, as opposed to asking customers to be, you know, thinking more holistically at their entire energy usage, which is just not how they think. And I think, to change that behavior, would be quite a monumental task going forward. But those are some of the things that we think about, because we are very concerned about the affordability going forward, because it is such a massive change that we're all experiencing.   Trevor Freeman  43:50   Yeah, I think this is another example of there is no single solution here. There is no you know, silver bullet that's going to help us pay for all of this, we need all the tools on the table here, we need to look at all different options. And I think you outlined a couple of them, you know, in what you said about our customers impression of some of this change and who should pay for it. Last episode, I talked to David Coletto, from Abacus data, and he was saying on the whole Canadians really believe that a an electrified energy system, we know once we make that transition, we will be more secure, it will be more affordable. And I think those customers who have made some transition in their lives can see the benefit of that. But sometimes the initial hurdle is pretty hard to get over that upfront capital cost. And so looking for ways, both at the customer level as well as at the utility level, the LDC level I think is going to be important to help get over that initial capital outlay that's required, so that we can realize those benefits that we all know where they are that we know we'll see. So . Yeah, great filling some of those out. So I know I mentioned that I will get back to this. But I do want to talk to you about the advocacy role that the EDA plays. So you mentioned, you know, talking to governments and Ontario, the provincial governments across Canada, the provincial government has jurisdiction over most energy matters. So advocacy to the government is a key role that you play. I'm curious, what are you asking the government to do or to provide to help some of these changes that we're talking about happen? What is the advocacy that you're pushing for with the government.   Teresa Sarkesian  45:32    So I'm going to try to keep it really simple and just sort of, you know, tie it back to our vision paper for now, because at any given time, I'm working on 20 or 30 l policy issues, primarily with the Ontario government. But this past year, we have expanded our work to also include the federal government, because they have investment tax credits that we are interested in for our members to see if they could be eligible for those. We're interested in them changing things to the Canada Infrastructure Bank, also to provide new sources of equity there. And we're also pursuing grants, as well, for grid modernization. So provincially, a whole whack of issues. But I'm going to go back to our paper just to give your audience a little bit of a sneak peek on some of the things that we're going to be asking for. So one of the first things we're going to be asking for is to get a common understanding and definition of grid modernization, and electrification. And this is not really new of an idea, we kind of have copied it from the US, there's a lot of jurisdictions, there where very clear objectives that have been set out in order to justify grid modernization, investments. So we think that it'd be beneficial for Ontario to do that, because then once you have those objectives in place, it is going to make it a lot easier to be able to prioritize grid modernization capabilities, functionalities, and investments in line with those objectives. You know, and then from there, you know, we're looking at creating a series of foundational investments. So going forward, some of the things that we think are foundational, are things like the distributed energy resource management systems and the advanced metering infrastructure, which is sort of like smart meters 2.0, for lack of a better term, and also the advanced distribution management systems. So we see those are going to be foundational pieces that all utilities are going to need to be able to help customers interact with the grid, and they're going to be necessary grid investments. So how what we see for those is we would like it to be similar policy direction, like we had for smart meters and green button, where you have government mandated activities. And then those are given, you know, a kind of lower standard of evidence with the Ontario Energy Board to support that capital infrastructure, they're deemed as priorities and ties back to that initial plan, where you set objectives, as long as those objectives can be that then those should get a pass through.   Trevor Freeman  48:12   If I could jump in right there just for our listeners. So what Teresa is describing here is, at the moment when there are unique things that are not part of government mandate, yet every LDC and Ontario, of which there are many 60, something I don't even have the number in front of me but every LDC when it comes time to enact that project has to go through a whole exercise of justifying it proving why it's necessary, saying this is why we want to do it. If there was some commonality across LDCs in the province, we wouldn't have to put as much effort into, you know, the report writing side of it, we could just get down to business and make these changes that we all know across the province are important. So I think it's helpful for us to understand how that process works.    Teresa Sarkesian  49:00   Yeah, and thank you for interjecting on that, Trevor, because if government wants us to move fast, we can, but we need that certainty. So you know, we're no different than any even though we're regulated monopolies. We're really no different than any other business that wants to do business in Ontario, you're always looking for certainty and clarity, from legislation from policy from regulation, because the uncertainty is what slows things down. Another recommendation that I'm moving forward with is that we need to move beyond pilot projects. I had a conversation with a consultant who is working with Enercan on this and they want to move beyond I love their term, death by demonstration. We've got a couple of dozen pilot projects currently in the sector, whether they're funded provincially through the IESO or they're funded federally through Natural Resources Canada, and you know, there's some very exciting results that are coming out of those. But some of those pilot projects have been going on for all almost four years, in one case, almost five. And at some point you need to pull off the band aid said, Yes, this is a success, all LDCs would be eligible for funding in this. So we need to be able to scale it up. Or we just say no, that's not going to work. But being in this constant state of the pilot projects, while it's informative, at some point, someone has to have the courage to say we're moving forward, this is going to be scalable. Another recommendation we have is to create an action plan to develop a comprehensive human resource strategy to address quantity quality, and partnership aspects of the labor force going forward. There's some great work that electricity, Human Resources Canada has done. And, you know, DC 28,000, replacement and new jobs in our sector, by 2050 and that's, the electricity sector at large across Canada. And I did some, I think back of the envelope calculations to try to figure out, okay, some assumptions about distribution. And we're looking at close to 10,000 new positions in the sector, over the next 25 years. Every sector is having challenges, filling current jobs, never mind jobs, that we're not even sure what they are quite yet. So we don't necessarily have the right programs at the universities and colleges or private training institutions to start getting the right people and talent into our organization. And, you know, so we need help for that. And, you know, I am encouraged, I saw a little announcement out of the province yesterday to have more electricians down on the Chatham Kent area, because that's the whole greenhouse industry. And so I said, Okay, that's exciting. So people are starting to pay attention, but we need it more than just in one local community, it needs to be province wide. And, you know, like I mentioned before, we need to have more conversations about what the funding models are going to be to fund the energy transition. So these are some of the issues and recommendations that we're taking forward from our vision paper. But day to day, I guess that's the other thing, I want to mention in terms, the change I've seen, I've never seen us work on so many issues, prepare so many submissions, invest so many staff at various tables and working groups. And we love doing all that work. We love representing our members at every table of discussion possible, but I've never seen so many. And they're not just oh, you're there for a month, and you're done. Some of these they are multi year. So they have longer legs, because they are far more complex. But you know, we're working every day, you know, for members that way. Very, very proud to represent our sector think it's a fantastic sector. And the fact that they're going to play such a pivotal role in the future makes us only want to work harder to make sure we get the best of everything for our membership.    Trevor Freeman  52:54   Yeah, I know, we echo that at our level, we can certainly see a lot more stakeholdering and engagement happening with all players in the sector, but especially the government as they figure out this energy transition to right, let's not, you know, let's not forget that the government needs to figure out where policy needs to go to lead it, and it's a great role that you're playing to kind of bring the voice of the distributors to the government. Because again, as we've talked about a couple of times, we're really on the front lines, and we're hearing from our customers, and we're seeing what needs to change right at that customer level, in order to enable some of this stuff that's happening so that that conversation between the LDCs and the government I think is really important. So you know, we don't work in a vacuum, I just mentioned a number of stakeholders in our sector. And I highlighted the interconnected nature of our grid at the beginning of our conversation. There are a lot of different players working together to really, at the end goal is bring power to the customer. How do you see the existing model changing or expanding in terms of, you know, the kinds of partnerships that LDCs have moving forward? So you know, you mentioned private equity is being a potential upcoming role. There are things like technology companies that are developing innovative solutions, who, you know, we maybe were a bit more arm's length with in the past. There's a changing nature of our relationship with the customers, you brought up the idea of going from one way power flow to kind of two way back and forth. arrangement. How do you see that partnership evolving in the future?   Teresa Sarkesian  54:30   Well, I think the good news is, there's a very strong foundation knowledge to build on. So I'm going to talk about three different areas. I'm going to talk about sort of shared services across utilities, and I'll talk about a partnerships with the private industry. And I'd like to talk about the engagement with customers as well. So firstly, there's lots of shared services going around in the industry already. There's all kinds of partnerships that members are trying to reduce costs for customers and find the best solution. So instead of saying, having 60 utilities run, seek out the best solution, you know, you get everyone working collaboratively to find a solution at the best price for customers. So we've seen a lot, just in my 15 years I've been there you've got in the past, there was, you know, common delivery of conservation programs, members work together on common engineering standards, lots of mutual aid assistance agreements across among utilities, for Storm Recovery. I've seen shared billing services, bulk purchasing products, and shared control room practices and services. And I've seen private sector play a much bigger role in utilities, as well. I've had the privilege to attend some openings, and launches of micro grids, where you have maybe a solar company and an energy storage, battery company, that are part of that group with utility, creating a micro grid for their community to provide maybe warming and cooling charging services when there's a major outage, for example. And I've seen now, some smart grids, you know, one that's already been implemented up in the north that has a significant private sector partner. And I've seen it also there's a new one, that's another one in the north, that's going to be developed with a private sector partner. And I've seen, not just Ontario businesses, I've seen what businesses come in one of our members is doing a distribution system operator pilot model with a partner in from Norway. So I'm really encouraged, I think the foundation is already there to kind of build on all those successes we already have, and do more, you know, and we talked about the customers going forward as well, that they're going to be to help playing a role, or we hope they're going to be playing a role. Because there's a lot of energy, battery storage and solar generation, sort of behind the meter, whether it's a farm, or it's a residential customer, or it's a big industrial customer. And so we want to be able to optimize all of those resources into the system to be of benefit to all customers to reduce costs. But we'd have to give an incentive to those customers to participate, no one is going to let you know a utility access their, you know, solar panel generation or their battery storage, unless they're going to be getting paid to do so. And I think that's going to be really important going forward, because we don't want to over build the grid, I mean, the grid is going to be so big, going forward. And we have to find ways to avoid over building it. Because we don't want to be in a situation where you know, customers are having to pay too much for a grid that's not properly optimized. So trying to find solutions behind the meter, that will maybe either avoid or delay bigger generation investments or transmission investments, or even actually distribution investments, we want to optimize that. But right now, there's not really a lot of permission to do that. So we need to get that legislative and regulatory permission to do that, to turn those, you know, more passive customers into prosumers, that they're basically your their proactive customers by selling their energy storage back to the grid. So I'm really optimistic. I think we've got a great foundation work to do on the customer peace, letting them participate as prosumers and the system, but I'm pretty optimistic that that we can get that job done.   Trevor Freeman  58:27   Yeah, I think it really highlights, there's a lot to be excited about when it comes to the change, that's going to happen. There's a lot of opportunity out there both for the LDCs, for the other stakeholders for our customers, that this energy transition, this change is going to bring about, you know, there's some challenges to I know, he talked about the challenges. I wonder, though, what do you see, as you know, one of the single biggest are a series of risks to achieving the vision that you've outlined in the paper, how could this go off the rails and not happen the way we need it to happen?   Teresa Sarkesian  59:03   Well, I always like to be glass half full as opposed to half empty, but you're taking me down that road? Trevor? So I'm going to answer that question.    Trevor Freeman  59:11   It's my job.    Teresa Sarkesian  59:11   So you know, obviously, our vision for the future role is big, but it's practical. The energy transition is upon us now. It's not something to contemplate for the future. So we think that the biggest risk is effectively inaction or kind of, you know, kicking the issue down the road, 510 years. We're seeing this right, nearby jurisdictions in the US are taking action. There's been significant funding out of the Biden administration, for all kinds of initiatives from you know, cybersecurity, to grid modernization down there. They're doing they're very competitive. They want to attract businesses, to the US. And so, you know, that's a major competition for Ontario. So if we don't seize the opportunities to kind of start working on these important issues now, we could lose economic development opportunities, we could lose jobs, we could lose investment, we could lose our talent as well, that may want to move to another jurisdiction. So to mitigate that risk, the LDCs, and policymakers have to work together on developing a shared vision around electrification and grid modernization, develop a plan of action and create a realistic timeline to turn that vision into reality.   Trevor Freeman  1:00:26   Yeah, it's a it's a great point. And I think it's important for people to understand that change is happening, the change is going to happen, whether we want it to or not. And, you know, often sometimes people say, Are we are we really going to see this change? I think we're already seeing it, we're already seeing customers want to change the way they interact with energy. The risk here is if we don't react quick enough or properly enough, the costs of that change becomes higher the reliability of the grid that we're working with, goes down, that general customer experience is not where it needs to be. And then you've highlighted some other ones, you know, we can really struggle with talent if we're not offering them the kind of cool innovative roles that they're looking for. But the neighboring jurisdiction is, so it's not so much that the change may or may not happen, it's how do we react to it in a way that really serves all of our stakeholder the best. So, Teresa, this has been a really great conversation. And I really appreciate you taking the time to join us and chat with us today. I think there's a number of things that we talked about today that really set up future conversations I'm going to have nicely. So thanks for the half for teeing that up. And this is your second time on the show. No doubt, there'll be a third time because I think there's a lot more that down the road, we can we can pick apart. So thanks for that. We typically end our interviews here with some common questions to all our guests. So to start off, what is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?   Teresa Sarkesian  1:01:56   So one I recently enjoyed it's by a friend too. By Darrell Bricker, he wrote Empty Planet, and that is very, very good talks about actually declining global population. And what that means from everything from, you know, businesses to climate

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Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Tav and Inmn talk about the utility of waterways and the ways that industrialization has changed our relationship to waterways. Inmn learns new terrifying things about river rafting and how river guides really come up with the scariest things to name potential dangers. Guest Info Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Tav on Waterways **Inmn ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today Inmn Neruin, and today we're going to be revisiting a subject that we've talked about before which is paddling on water. And we're going to talk a lot about rivers and we're gonna talk about—a little bit about planning trips and just generally the importance of getting to know your local waterways, with some specific contexts on places that are really cold. But first, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts, and here's a jingle from another show on that network. Doo doo doo doo doo! **Inmn ** 01:43 And welcome back. Thanks so much for coming on the show today. Could you introduce yourself and tell us just a little bit about what you—what you do in the world and what you're excited to talk about today? **Tav ** 01:59 Yeah, I'm Tav and I'm a, I guess broadly a wilderness guide from so-called Canada. Yeah, I've worked everywhere from the East Coast to Newfoundland, up to the Yukon. And yeah, I'm mostly a paddling guide, so everything from whitewater rafting, to sea kayaking, to canoeing, but I've also been known to guide hiking trips, and yeah, pretty much that's what I do. **Inmn ** 02:32 Cool, cool. That's—I feel like, you know, we've had people come on and talk about like, like arctic hiking, or hiking, or paddling, mostly in the desert, and I feel like—maybe this is just me having a very not understanding of all of these things for the most part. But what—I'm curious about, like, what kind of changes, like, in places where it gets super cold and you're having to be in the water? Which sounds cold. It sounds very cold to me.  **Tav ** 03:06 Um, yeah, I think the main thing is that it really depends on what—well, first of all, what time of year it is and, like, what exactly you're doing or planning on doing. So if you're going to be running rapids, you're certainly going to get wet. And so we have these things called dry suits, which are, well, it's kind of exactly what it sounds like. It's a suit that keeps you dry. They have these rubber gaskets on your wrists and your neck. So it, like, suctions completely to your neck and your wrists and the rest of its waterproof, including the feet. And you usually have, like I have these, call them river boots, and you just put them on over the suit. And then you're nice and protected. And you can wear warm stuff underneath if it's super cold out. But personally, I run hot. So generally, I find that like, just a base layer underneath is good enough for me. Because as soon as, like it really traps in all that air, so you stay pretty, you stay pretty warm. Even if you're in like really freezing water. But in other times of year, like to be honest, in the summer here, it gets pretty hot, like people—people don't really think of it. It's not like it's frozen year round. Obviously the waters running at a certain point and, especially these days, the summers can get up to, you know, like 30 degrees. And yeah. **Inmn ** 04:40 Cool. I'm gonna pretend I know what the conversion is on that. Wow, that's hot. **Tav ** 04:46 Yeah, I mean, it is pretty—it's probably not hot for you coming from the desert actually. But yeah, I think, I think broadly the biggest thing is always, at least for me, dressing as if you're gonna fall in the water. Unless it's really hot out. If it's really hot out and you fall in, it kind of feels great. But, but if it's chilly, you always dress like you're gonna go in the water, and not like you're just gonna have a nice day on the river. And yeah. **Inmn ** 05:25 Well, I guess like, I'm curious about, like, what the kind of preparedness like like, what—like, what do you what do you do if you fall in the water? What do you do if you fall in the water and you get wet? Like, what's—and your dry suit doesn't keep you dry? These scary questions that I have about being in the wilderness and being cold and wet.  **Tav ** 05:50 For sure. Definitely, I mean, so the first thing that's gonna happen it—and again, it all really depends on where you fall out. And like, because rivers are a very dynamic environment, actually, as one of my coworkers put it to me. He was more on the hiking side of things. And he told me that like paddling really scared him, because if something goes wrong on the river, you're still moving down the river as this thing is going wrong. So you have to like deal with the problem, but also maybe deal with a hazard that's like right in front of you. And then it's always about, like, figuring out what the best course of action is in regards to, like, dealing with the hazard, but also, you know, saving the person, and making sure everybody else who's still in the boat is safe. But I think broadly, what I tend to tell people if I'm taking them on a trip that's going to involve whitewater, is: the safest place on the river is in the boat. And if you're not in the boat, you should be on shore. So if I'm gonna, like, enter a bunch of rapids—and the other thing is actually, before I say that, you need to know, like, how to swim if you're gonna like be in whitewater. They call it a defensive swimming position. And you kind of sit back like you're in a lawn chair, and put your feet forward. And that way, if you like smashed into a rock, it's not your face that smashes into a rock, it's your feet. And you just kind of, like, you should have a lifejacket on. So that'll keep you floating. And, and then there's also, like, an offensive swimming position, which I wouldn't normally teach somebody, that's, yeah. Anyways, so yeah, so if I'm about to enter a bunch of rapids, I'll tend to tell people like, hey, if you do fall out, and for whatever reason you can't get back to the boat, you need to swim to the left shore or the right shore. Because sometimes it might not be safe to swim a certain direction and people don't know that and they're just gonna panic and swim whatever way seems the best. But if you let them know beforehand, like, hey, swim left, if something goes really wrong, I don't know, then they'll at least know the safer way to swim. Yeah. And then other than that, like, we have, I guess, a couple tools in our arsenal—and this should be the same with rivers everywhere. We'll have throw ropes, which are just some buoyant rope. And it's in a bag, and you throw it at people. And they should hopefully grab on to it and then you can pull them in to safety. And then there's obviously, again, like, as with all things, it can get more and more complicated depending on what the problem is. Actually, this one place I worked—I wasn't on this trip, but there was a person who got stuck on a piece of debris in the middle of a rapid which is, like, absolutely horrifying, especially because we've run that river—or that section of the river, like, a million times and that's never happened. So there was well, so—this is kind of insane, but there was a an old mill there, like a lumber mill. Or maybe it was a paper mill. I don't know, it was some industrial thing. And rather than, like, you know, when it went out of business, disposing of all the waste properly, they just decided, hey, there's this big river right there. Let's just throw the whole factory in the river. Why not? So there was all this big machinery and like metal under the water, and a lot of the rapids are actually created by that like big hunks of metal and stuff. But anyways, we had no idea that that, like, was there. And maybe it was just like the water level was perfectly right that day or perfectly wrong that day. But yeah, this person got like caught on their swim shorts, like, right on the piece of metal. And they were stuck in the middle of a rapid. So I cannot imagine what my friends went through trying to rescue that person. It must have been pretty terrifying. But yeah, so in situations like that, it would be like a much more complicated rescue than just like throwing a rope at them and hoping for the best. So yeah. **Inmn ** 10:23 Wow, that is—you unlocked a new fear for me. I thought that Blix had like gotten all of my fear out of me, you know, in horrible things that can happen in a river, and new fear unlocked. Thanks.  **Tav ** 10:39 Yeah.  **Inmn ** 10:43 What do you—I guess I'm curious—I guess my guess is, because boats, you just—I didn't know, boats are super interesting to me because, like you said, it's like the boat keeps moving down the river. And so it's like, I want to be like, okay, like, what, like, you know, what do you do if there's an emergency? What do you do if someone needs to be like, medivaced from an area like that? And I guess I'm expecting the answer is: put him in the boat and keep going. But—which is like a cool one interesting thing about boats, is they keep going?  **Tav ** 11:20 Yeah, for sure. I mean, again, it really depends. Like everything is situational, right?  **Inmn ** 11:26 Yeah yeah yeah.  **Tav ** 11:27 And you really have to assess the situation and figure out what the best course of action is. Like, the best thing to do might be to like pull over and call EMS and hope they can land like a bush plane or a helicopter near you, or get to a place where they can land it. I had this one evac where a lady actually had a stroke on the river.  **Inmn ** 11:53 Oh no. **Tav ** 11:53 Yeah, I was pretty terrible. I was the only person there with, like, you know, decent medical training. I'm not like a doctor or anything, but I have my wilderness first responder and all that fun stuff. And yeah, so it was just like me and these other guides, who had, like, some training, but not as much as me. And my coworker—love this guy, he's amazing—but he said that she had a concussion. And I was like, this is not a concussion. This is a stroke. Yeah. And so, so yeah, so what ended up happening is we had to take one of the boats and—honestly, mad respect to my to my coworker for this—he got her down like a 45 minute section of river and like 15 minutes. We were just lucky because we had a raft there with an oar frame on it. And those, like—an oar frame is just like, you know, like a rowboat— **Tav ** 12:51 —with like, the two oars and you're like rowing it. It's that, but you like, it's a big metal frame, and you like strap it down to the rafts. So instead of—like, if you have less than the ideal number of people, you can just have one person paddle the boat. So in that case, it was actually my group, where I only had like two people. So I just ended up strapping the warframe on because it's easier than having them paddle. So anyways, my coworker took that boat and just, like, ripped down the river faster than anybody ever has probably since then. So, so yeah, I mean, in that case, like, it was a serious medical problem, we couldn't deal with the problem, you know, you need to like, get that person to definitive care as fast as possible. And in that situation, we were close enough to the end, that the best thing to do was to just call EMS, get them to bring an ambulance to the takeout and get her there as fast as possible. But you might not be in a situation where that's, you know, plausible, you might have to call a bush plane or something like that. Or, even worse, like a bush plane can't come and you're stuck for like days with somebody with a serious medical problem. That can happen, unfortunately. Yeah. **Inmn ** 12:51 Oh okay.  **Inmn ** 14:18 Yeah. Yeah. I feel like—and I think this is a topic for another time—but I really want to—folks listening out there. This is my plug to our audience. I would really love to talk to someone at some point about like, like we have this idea in, like, wilderness first aid, response, etc. I have like an expired wilderness EMT. I haven't done that work in a very long time and my brain has totally fallen out of it. But like, interested in this conversation of like, long term care in, like, when definitive care is very far away, you know, like, how to troubleshoot situations where it's like, yeah, definitive care is days away. Definitive care is a week away. And I'm like really interested in talking to someone about that. So if that feels like you, Tav, or ambient listener, then send us a message. **Tav ** 15:31 Yeah, I can't say that's exactly my area of expertise. I can offer like, an anecdote from a friend of mine, who— **Inmn ** 15:41 Oh yeah. Love anecdotes. **Tav ** 15:43 —it's pretty, it's pretty grim. I'm not gonna lie. This guy is friend of mine, he's much older than me. He's been doing this river guide stuff for his whole life. And he's had lik three people die in his arms.  **Inmn ** 16:00 Oh my god.  **Tav ** 16:01 Yeah. But like that's, unfortunately, the reality of the situation where, if you're that far away, and someone's not getting there, and there's a serious problem, and you can't deal with it, that's what happens. Right? That's the unfortunate fact of existence. And it's pretty horrifying to realize. Also from a somewhat selfish perspective, like, if I continue along this career path that could very well be me telling another young person and a few years like, oh, yeah, this one horrible thing happened to me. And yeah, like, I've definitely seen my fair share of, like, pretty intense situations that could have gone pretty badly. Thankfully, I haven't had anybody die on any of the excursions I've been on. But be I've had some pretty close calls there. So yeah. It is it is something to always consider, like, when you're heading off on a trip that's going to be far away from a hospital or civilization, I guess. That, yeah, like you are far away, and you need to have a certain level of confidence in yourself to deal with the situations that you might need to deal with. But also, in that, like, for me, it comes with a certain level of, like, risk acceptance. And like, everybody has a different level of risk tolerance. You might not be the person who's going to go, like, on a month long trip through the wilderness. That might not be okay with you. And that's fine, it's not for everybody. You know, in my case, the way I tend to look at it is, like, if there's a problem I can't deal with—pretending I'm alone in this scenario—like, if there's a problem I can't deal with myself, and it's so serious that I'm gonna die, like, in a few minutes, then like, I just accept that, like, that's what's gonna happen. Like, if I can't deal with the problem, and I can't call for help with the problem and it's that bad anyways, then I'm alread—can I swear on this? Is this a no swearing show? **Inmn ** 18:31 Oh, yeah, you can, yeah. **Tav ** 18:32 I can swear? Okay, I was gonna say, I'm already in a lot of shit if that's—if that's happening. So for me, my risk tolerance, I mean, it might be higher than others. But I don't know—it's just like, something you have to accept when it comes to taking risks. I mean, you can be prepared and informed and know everything and still an accident can happen. And then you just have to accept that, yeah, accidents happen, and it might be a really big, bad accident. So, so yeah. **Inmn ** 19:06 Yeah. Yeah, that' very true. I feel like—I feel like there's a lot of aspects of our societies that have kind of—have had our, like, brains adapt to this idea that, like, that there is always a solution to something. And I feel like this was like a big thing with, like, with COVID, like, for a lot of people, was the expectation that there was a solution to something, and a lot of people, like, getting to the ER and being like, oh, there actually isn't a solution right now—or there isn't like a one 100%, like guarantee that this problem can be fixed. And yeah, I don't know. It's—I think that's the thing that I've been thinking a lot about, is how our societies have kind of expected there to always be a guaranteed solution to something that there might not be a solution to. And I think that's like—I think that's getting more extreme as things in the world change more. There's—when we are used to certainty, there is now more uncertainty. That is an articulate thought, I'm gonna stand by it. **Tav ** 20:42 Yeah. No, I mean, definitely. Like, I could see that in society at large, actually, now that you mentioned it. But like, yeah, I mean, with regards to wilderness travel, I think anybody who does this sort of thing, like you have an understanding of the risk involved, and like what—you know, there's things that you can deal with there and there's things you can't deal with. And, yeah, like, but I mean, okay, you know, I also don't want to scare people. It's not—like, yes, you have to kind of look within yourself and accept that something bad might happen. But at the same time, I've done, like, I don't even want to know how many 1000s of hours of paddling in my life. And I, yeah, I've had, like, some problems. But I think a lot of those kind of stem from the fact that it's my job. And I'm taking people out there who aren't necessarily prepared for what they're going to—like, they go online and they're like, oh, I want to go on a guided paddling trip. And they Google, whatever, paddling in the Yukon. And then they find this company and they book a trip and they go. And that's all the preparation and thought that they put into it. Where—and that's exactly what they're paying for, I guess, if you look at it from like a service perspective. They're paying for somebody else to do all of that thought. And what I'm, what I do, like, independently—like if somebody listening wanted to go out paddling, if you just, like, talk to somebody who knows what they're doing locally—like join your local paddling club, a lot of places have those, or like find a group online—and like, learn from people or learn from the Internet. We have a lovely resource of, like, all of the information anyone could ever want. So, yeah, it doesn't have to be dangerous. I think most of the danger, and most of the dangerous situations I've been in, happen simply because it's my job to take unprepared people out into the wilderness. And, like, that kind of sucks. I—that's why I'm not actually working as a guide this summer. One of the reasons is because I'm pretty tired of dealing with unprepared people in the wilderness because it's stressful. It's really stressful. And yeah, so I mean, I guess the the main point is, like, it doesn't have to be dangerous as long as you're prepared. And I think that's a pretty great theme, considering this show. **Inmn ** 23:43 Yeah, yeah. And it's—I don't know, like, I totally understand the outlook of someone who's like, yes, I want to pay someone else to be prepared for me. And it's like, you know, reality is very different from, like, adventure tourism. But like, it's funny because it's a thing that is like a little antithetical to preparedness in general. And I'm divorcing adventure tourism and preparedness, like, because they're different things.  **Tav ** 24:21 Yeah. **Inmn ** 24:21 But, yeah, it's like, that is the thing that we're always trying to talk about on this show is, like, if in our own lives, like, if we are all more prepared than it—then like your prepper friend has to, like, do less when stuff goes wrong because everyone's a little bit prepared.  **Tav ** 24:41 Yeah, for sure.  **Inmn ** 24:44 I kind of want to switch tacks a little bit though and talk about this other thing. So I'm curious—I guess in, like, in the Yukon specifically, like, there's places where I live that I'm, like, okay, yes, that is a less accessible place via like roads and things like that. But I'm curious kind of like what the Yukon and, like, that whole area is like in terms of, like, history of transportation and stuff like that. Because, like, waterways have played kind of like a pretty large part in that from what you've told me before this—and now I sound like it's something I already knew.  **Tav ** 25:27 Yeah, for sure. To be honest, it's not just the Yukon. Throughout this country we call Canada, if you actually look at all of Canadian history, like, Canada's like three companies in a trench coat. Always has been. And it was founded on fur trading. Right. And how that was done is basically, like, white people came over, and then they met the ndigenous people. And they were like, wow, these people move pretty far and they have some neat boats. And then they kind of co-opted those boats. And of course, Indigenous people and Metis people took part in the fur trade as well. A very large part, to be honest, in making sure a lot of white people didn't just die in the wilderness. Yeah, but like throughout this entire nation's history, every single place is really connected by water. Like that's just how people got around. Everywhere from, like, the far north, the Inuit had kayaks and—actually dogsleds. ou know, when the sea froze in the winter, they had greater mobility, because—I mean, and they're still moving over water, it's just frozen water, which is kind of like land. But it, yeah, so every single place in this entire so-called country is connected by water in some capacity. And I think that really forms the way that I look at places now. Because yes, we use roads to get around now. But very likely, there is another way to get anywhere you want to get. Because all of these settlements are built on rivers, on lakes, on the ocean, and the way people got there is probably on a boat, and not on a car because we didn't have cars 400 years ago. So yeah, I guess I just, I think it's really important to recognize that and recognize that it's still very very possible to go extremely long distances. And, you know, reach inaccessible, quote/unquote places with relative ease, to be honest. So actually, something that's pretty insane to me—it's mind boggling, to be quite honest: the longest river system in the country is the Mackenzie River. And it's technically, like, if you go by names, it's a bunch of different rivers that are connected. But it's really, like, from source to sea—I don't actually remember how many kilometers it is. But you can go from Alberta, like, around Jasper, if anybody knows where that is, all the way to the Arctic Ocean on a single river. And you can do that in like a single summer, too. And throughout that whole river, there's a bunch of towns. And a lot of them are not accessible by road, but they are very easily accessible by the river. So if you really think about it, like, in my mind, they're not inaccessible places. They seem inaccessible because of our modern transportation infrastructure, which, you know, makes anything that doesn't have a road seem like it's impossible to get to and you have to spend thousands of dollars and fly or whatever. But really, all it takes is, like, one person in a canoe and you can just go anywhere you want. Yeah. **Inmn ** 29:31 Yeah, that stuff is super interesting. It's like the—I don't know, it's like, I get on some level that, you know, cars are convenient. I love being able to drive somewhere. But it's like, I don't know, obviously cars are also terrible and we need different—we need something different before the planet dies. But It's like also this thing that, like, it's like car—I imagine that like switching over a transportation system to be, like, based on moving around on the river versus based on, like, driving around on some roads that demolish a bunch of shit. It also, like, divorces us from nature and like any connection that we have to, like, the natural landscape that we are using. And, like, used to be on the river and now it's put the remains of petrified trees in your thing and blast around on concrete or whatever. I don't know. It's just funny. **Tav ** 30:43 Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, I definitely—cars are—I wish I could just live out of a canoe. But that, I can't do that. I mean, I live in my car right now. So I get their convenience. But I do think that as, like, as things progress and the climate gets worse and worse, and I mean, even now, this is probably going to mean absolutely nothing to you—Oh, you know what, actually, I was in Alaska, like, the other day. And it's actually a bit cheaper than here. But the gasoline that I purchased was $5.50 American per gallon, which I think is $1.67, or .68 per liter. What I normally—like in the Yukon, it's like 1$.80 to $1.90 per liter right now, which, it's getting pretty unaffordable to go large, long distances in a in a car. And I think that like as this progresses, like—they're not getting—these prices are not getting cheaper, inflation is continuing, and it's quickly going to become really hard, I think, for your average person to go anywhere in a vehicle when it's costing them, like, over $100 to fill a single tank. And that's, I think, where we have to return to what we did historically, which is travel on rivers. And I mean, it's not even just returning to, like, historical transport, I guess. Like we can still use road infrastructure, a lot of people bike everywhere. And you can go pretty long distance—like actually, it's super common in the Yukon to see people biking the entire Klondike highway, or the entire Dempster highway, like all the way to the Arctic Ocean, which is pretty awesome. **Inmn ** 31:27 Whoa.  **Tav ** 32:03 Yeah, yeah, I see them all the time, actually. Yeah, so—but anyways, the point being like, as we're getting, like, priced out of these things that we once took for granted, we're gonna have to understand that, like, people think about collapse and preparedness from really local perspective. And I think that's great. Really, I think getting more local is awesome. But I think what people also forget about is the fact that, like, we still are really an interconnected species. And we always have been, even before modern globalization. Like people really were traveling very far to go trade or whatever, on rivers or on the sea. And I think it's important to recognize that we probably should still be doing that because it does strengthen everybody's community. Like, just, I don't know, checking in on the community next door, or, you know, a few kilometers down the river is important too and, you know, sharing, I guess. Like, I guess there's inter-community preparedness and then intra-community preparedness. And I like to think that, like, using the environment and more specifically the waterways to like stay connected, even when we can't drive everywhere, is is pretty important. **Inmn ** 34:15 Yeah, I don't know. We live in a—we live in a strange world now. Um, I, you know, I didn't know this for a while and finding it out kind of blew my mind in a funny little way. But um, as far as like the eastern half of the United States is, like, someone told me that it is technically an island because you can circumnavigate the, like, eastern half of the United States and a boat. And this has, like, always kind of blown my mind. Like I'm not going to remember what the actual waterways all are, but it's like you can go from Lake Michigan to the Mississippi—whichever one of those lakes connects to the Mississippi—and like take the Mississippi down and then, like, get out into the Gulf and like sail around Florida, and like sail up the Atlantic, and then, like, through—it might be through a series of rivers and it might require using a canal, but you can like, get right back into the Great Lakes system. Like the Hudson Bay, or something. And— **Tav ** 34:50 —probably the same. I mean, if I was gonna do that I'd do the St. Lawrence River. **Inmn ** 35:47 But cool. Yeah. I don't actually know what these waterways are. **Tav ** 35:52 Yeah, for sure. I spend, like, way too much time of my life, like, I'm looking at a map and being like, okay, where does this river lead, and I'm, like, follow the river, like, all the way to its source. And then I go, like, all the way to the sea. And I'm like, okay, that's how far I can get there. But what if I portaged to this lake, and then I take that lake to this river. And like, anyways, I have, like, a whole folder have these like map files of just, like, random paddling routes that I've planned out. And I probably won't get to do all of them. But, yeah, I just, I am kind of a nerd in that I just like to go figure out, like, how I can get around places. Yeah. It's really crazy. Like, once you start—once you realize, like, your mind is opened up to the fact that, like, you can travel, basically anywhere on a boat, all you have to do is look at the blue lines on a map and trace them and figure out how you get from point A to point B using them. And I think it's also actually important to note that, like—so in a context of—yeah, like, in a context of a world where we're not able to use our highways and stuff. Like that, following a river or a creek, even if you don't have a boat, is a great way to make sure you know where you're going. Because, yeah, like, I mean, it's like a really obvious landmark. And you can just follow it the whole way. Especially in places where rivers are super seasonal, like, part of the year, it might literally just be like a bit of gravel, and you can just walk on it all the way to where you're going. Yeah, so I think that's also important to mention, that they're not—it's not just boats, it's just that they're very convenient ways to traverse a landscape, especially one that's, like, heavily forested. There might not be like a lot of other clearings nearby, so yeah. **Inmn ** 38:01 Yeah. Um, have you—so this like folder of, like, wacky routes—I'm gonna call them wacky routes—have you gotten to—could you tell us about a creative, like, trip that you took via waterways. Or, like, what's like the longest that you've traveled in like—I don't have words for the things that I'm asking you... **Tav ** 38:28 Yeah. Honestly, like, the longest trip I've ever done is unfortunately with my job, and that would be about a 10 day trip on the Yukon River. But—and that's just, it's mostly like a time thing. Like I said, you know, I—it's—we live in this cold place, and the water's only running for, like, a certain amount of time. And unfortunately, I've made it my livelihood to, like, spend my entire summer taking other people on trips. So in terms of my, like, crazy, wacky trips, I haven't gotten to do, like, any of the big ones that I want to actually do. Because, you know, they take, like, a month or more. And I just don't have a month because I need to make money.  **Inmn ** 39:17 Yeah. **Tav ** 39:18 But I'm hoping that will change this summer. I'm planning on a very long trip at the end of August, and it should be awesome.  **Inmn ** 39:28 Cool. **Tav ** 39:29 But yeah, so. So yeah, I guess in that respect, I haven't done any of those like ones that I concoct that are kind of wild. But I do like to just go and explore, like, little waterways and figure out, I don't know—I just like find a river and I'll go upstream. Or, actually a few days ago I did—I went just downstream and I I literally walked back to my car at the end, it was just a day thing. And that kind of sucks, being alone, because you're like, oh, cool, I did this river. And now I'm gonna just like walk back to my car and drive and pick up my boat. But yeah, I wish I had more cool stories of me on my own doing things that I want to do, but capitalism exists and all my fun river stories are with tourists that I'm taking. So. **Inmn ** 40:31 Yeah, that makes sense. What is this trip that you're planning gonna be like? **Tav ** 40:40 Yeah, so actually I have a couple different options in that regard, and it is kind of gonna depend on, like, what's on fire and what's not on fire. So, but my main route that I want to take is, basically, it'll be I think 1000–1500 kilometers. And, yeah, and it'll be from this place called Eagle Plains, which is, like, in the Arctic—it's like right kind of on, slightly below the Arctic Circle, on the Dempster highway. And I'll start on the Eagle River, and then go through a series of other rivers. I'll reach Old Crow, which is the furthest north settlement in the Yukon. And then I'll take the Porcupine all the way across Alaska—I'll cross into Alaska. And that'll take me down to the Yukon River. I'll hit up a couple towns on the Yukon River in Alaska, and then I'll get off at the last point where there's road access. That the trip that I'd like to do if the fires allow me. **Inmn ** 41:58 Yeah, yeah. Um, what—are there—I guess like, when planning—when planning a trip that is not, like, a super pre established, I guess, route or something, are there any things that that are important to consider or important to, like, prepare for? **Tav ** 42:19 Yeah, for sure. The first thing is, I wouldn't recommend doing a non pre established route unless you kind of know what you're doing. But the second thing is that, like, basically, my strategy is: I figured out the route. I map it out. And then I scour the internet for information on any of these rivers. So in this case, all of the rivers—it's actually very likely somebody has done this route before. Like, I'm definitely not the only person to think of it. At the very least, some Indigenous people did it, 100%, before I did. **Tav ** 43:01 Yeah. **Tav ** 43:02 Yeah. But yeah, it's a pretty obvious one, as far as routes go. It's just a bunch of rivers, and they all kind of feed into each other. There's no, like, crazy portages I hope—there shouldn't be any crazy portages or anything like that. I have heard one of the rivers runs pretty low sometimes, so I might have to, like, drag my boat along. But um, yeah, so. So yeah, and that—like I met people who've done the route up to Old Crow before. So I know that—I've heard about that portion from a couple of people that I know. And, yeah, other than that, I look online. And, like, you just have to kind of incessantly Google until something comes up about the river you want. And like, it's probably going to be some like, weird, obscure blog from 2006 where someone's like, I paddled this river with my friends and it was cool. And like, it might not even have, like, all the information that you need. But, like, to me, a lot of the time I'm like, okay, cool, if someone did it, that means it's probably fine, right. And that's kind of my strategy. Like, you're not gonna get all of the information you want. But you can get a lot of information just by, like, scouring the internet. And actually, go to your local bookstore. If you're going to like plan a river trip near you, go to a bookstore—or not your local bookstore if it's not near you. Go to the bookstore there and look for maps, because they probably have maps of local places. And if they don't have maps, you should ask them where to get maps, because they probably know where to get maps. I know in Canada, though, you can go on natural resources, Natural Resources Canada, and they should have like topographic maps of the entire country if you need, like, that kind of math. But you can also just, like, go on Google. But, um, but yeah, I guess mostly it comes down to getting information from wherever you can get your information from, whether that's people who've done it, the internet, or your local bookstore. And the second thing is, if you're doing a route you're unfamiliar with, especially if you're alone, you have to be cautious, and you have to know what to look for. And you have to be able to react really quickly to situations. Actually, literally a couple of days ago I was paddling this river in Alaska and the water's really low because of the time of year. And I was coming around a bend and there was a sweeper right across the river. And what happened is the river really, really narrowed, like, in this section. And it just, like, it went right for the sweeper—a sweeper is a tree that's like right across the water. So if you think about it, like, a broom, it'll be like right over up the surface. And then there's all these like branches on the way. And I think there was like a log and there's like other stuff underneath the sweeper. It was not a fun thing to be like hurtling towards really quickly. And yeah, so I was alone. And I, like, swung my boat around and, like, jumped out—because like, it was really low water so that it was shallow, which made it much easier to just, like, jump out of my boat as fast as possible and, like, drag it on shore. But like, it's stuff like that, where you're not necessarily expecting it and then you're like, oh shit, like, I need to deal with this right now. Get out of the way. And I actually lost my paddle it went down—I got it. It's fine. That's why you always have a spare paddle. That's the moral of the story. Have two paddles.  **Inmn ** 47:09 I feel like the moral of the story is: river guides continue to come up with horrifying names for dangers in the river. I thought I had heard the worst but "sweeper" is—sorry this is uh, this is a call back to Blix telling me about, like, just the—I forget what they're—I feel like one of them was called a "blender," and I— **Tav ** 47:35 Blender? I dunno about a blender. Maybe American river guides have different names for stuff. I don't know. I don't know. To me, the most horrifying feature on a river is an undercut. And it's unfortunately something that comes up a lot in places where the rivers freeze. So what will happen is like the banks will be covered in ice. And if you're—and if you're paddling at that time of year, there'll be undercuts along the whole riverbank, like the whole way down the river. And an undercut is basically just where the current goes like underneath a ledge right? At the worst case, it can be, like, a recirculating current under there. So like you get sucked under in like basically an underwater cave. And then it just, like, like, circles you around underneath and like an underwater cave and you just, like, sit there and die.  **Inmn ** 48:30 [Quietly] God. **Tav ** 48:30 Yeah, so that's what an undercut is. And then like the ice undercuts and kind of terrifying, something to be aware of if you're going to be paddling a river during spring or fall. Yeah, those are—to me, that's the most terrifying thing. Because like a lot of other stuff, there's like a way to kind of get around it or, like, you know, figure it out. But if you get sucked into an undercut you're kind of boned. Like you're pretty—there's not a lot you can do. **Inmn ** 49:03 Yeah. **Tav ** 49:04 Especially if you're alone. There's other people—I've heard of someone who got sucked into an undercard on the Ottawa River actually. And, like, there's this—I don't remember the name of the rapid, but there's this one part that's like this crazy undercut. And someone got sucked in there. And they got a rope on them somehow. And they had a truck, like a pickup truck. And they were pulling them out of the current with a pickup truck and the rope snapped. And, like, the pickup truck couldn't even go against the current. Like they were just stuck under—that person didn't live. But yeah, like it can be pretty—those are—yeah, again, that's like the most extreme horrifying thing I think to me, but... **Inmn ** 49:50 Stay away from—I know we're just—we're talking about our rivers are cool, but everyone's stay away from rivers. Golly. That's not my actual advice. **Tav ** 50:02 I think it—no—they're definitely—like that's the thing, right? They're definitely a force of nature. I always like to tell people: you will never win a fight against a river. But that doesn't mean you should be afraid of going on the river always, like, yeah, I feel like I've been talking about a lot of negative bad things that can happen. And I don't want to freak people out. Rivers are really nice and cool, and they help you get places, and it can be really fun. It's not all whitewater. Like, the Yukon River is a giant—like it's a highway. It's like, huge, flat river. It goes like 10 kilometers an hour or something crazy. Like, you can paddle it super fast. And there's, like, basically no hazards. Like, there's like some log jams and like stuff like that, but they're very easily avoided. And it's, yeah, as far as, like, as far as rivers go, if you want to go a long distance and not have to worry about any of that scary, complicated stuff, the Yukon river is fantastic. Actually, every year there's a race called the Yukon River Quest, where people paddle from Whitehorse to Dawson City, it's like 730 kilometers, and yeah, people are doing that in like, three days. Well, less than three days actually. Like they're times because you have to like stop-there's a mandatory rest point where you have to sleep for a certain number of hours, and they don't count that towards the final time, but basically the the race lasts like three days. That's like paddling nonstop. But to be honest, if you think about the fact that you don't have a motor, and you're not in a car or anything like that, and you're traveling 730 kilometers in three days, that's crazy. And there's like no hazards. It's so crazy. **Inmn ** 50:18 That's really cool.  **Tav ** 50:32 Yeah, you can go really fast and get places on certain rivers. **Tav ** 51:21 Cool. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay, that sounds fun now. Now that sounds fun.  **Tav ** 52:09 Yeah.  **Inmn ** 52:12 Um, we're kind of coming up to the end of our time. Is there anything else you want to say about waterways, or paddling, or any questions that I didn't ask you that you're like, golly, why didn't Inman asked me about this.  **Tav ** 52:29 Yeah, um, I guess mainly just—I think I didn't get to talk about oceans as much as I would have liked to. But, like, I think the main thing I would hope people can take away from this is that it's really important to learn about the water near you, if that's the ocean, if that's a river, if that's a lake. You know, learn about whatever boa, the Indigenous people in your area use to travel on that water, because it's probably really well suited for it, to be honest. And yeah, just learn about your local waterway, learn about the ecosystem. I didn't get to talk about that as much too, but—because I'm really into traveling rivers—but they're also sources of food and just, like, life for everyone, you know. So learn about what animals live there, learn about how to help your river, and—or the ocean. And just learn about your local water and have some kind of relationship with it, whether that's, like, paddling or, like, picking blueberries on the riverbank. I think it's just important that everybody is aware of water and the life that it brings us and how it connects all of us. Yeah. I think that's that's it.  **Inmn ** 54:00 Cool. That seems like a great—that is a better place to end on than the blender—the sweeper—whatever that terrifying name was. Is there anything that you want to shout out, whether it's places people can find you on the internet where you would like to be found, or projects, or just anything you want to plug or shout out?  **Tav ** 54:25 Um, yeah, like, I guess I have a tiny YouTube channel that like doesn't have really much—it's mostly just my music, if anybody cares at all. It's, um, I'm birchbark online. You can find me there. That's whatever. But I think the main thing I want to plug is: go have a nice day by the water and be nice to yourself. **Inmn ** 55:00 Cool. That's a great thing. I'm going to go find water. I think there's water here right now.  **Tav ** 55:08 Awesome. **Inmn ** 55:08 I will try. Cool. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. **Tav ** 55:14  Yeah, for sure. Thanks. Thanks for having me. **Inmn ** 55:21 Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, then go learn more about your local waterways. And also come up with a new and terrifying name for a river obstacle so that I might live in fear of water forever. But also, if you liked the show, you can support it. And you can support it by telling people about the show, or doing stuff that involves an algorithm. I don't actually really know anything about any of that. But there is stuff that one can do. Also, if you would like to support the show, you can support it financially. And you can support it financially by supporting our publisher, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. You can find us at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. And you can sign up for different tiers. There's a super basic tier where you just get discounts. I mean, not just you, you get discounts and you get access to digital content. And there's another tier where you can get a zine that we send you every month, and it's a really cool zine. Sometimes it's a short story, sometimes it's poetry, sometimes it's an essay about something. And they're all really cool. And you can listen to those features in audio form on our other podcast, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, and you can listen to interviews with the author, it's really cool. And in all of the ways that you support our publisher financially, it goes towards paying our audio engineer, and paying our transcriptionist, and maybe one day paying the hosts and the guests of the show. And, yeah, that's all that. We would like to give some special shout outs to some of our patrons who support us at the acknowledgement level. And just to plug how cool the acknowledgement level is: If you give us $20 a month, which goes towards us doing really cool things, then you can get us to shout out, acknowledge, or thank an organization, yourself, someone that you love, or a fictional and theoretical concept on all of our shows—except for things like, you know, if you ask us to think the Empire, we're not going to thank the Empire. So don't try. But we would like to give some special things to these folks: Thank you, Amber, Ephemeral, Appalachian Liberation Library, Portland's Hedron Hackerspace, Boldfield, E, Patolli Erik, Buck, Julia, CatGut, Marm Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, Ben Ben, Anonymous funder, Janice & O'dell, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, SJ, Paige, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Micaiah, and Hoss the Dog. Thank you so much for making this show and so many other projects possible. Thanks so much for listening, and we hope that everyone's doing as well as they can with everything that's happening in the world. And we'll see you next time. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

On this episode of This Week in the Peace, Dub Craig talks with Dr. Honn Kao, a seismologist with Natural Resources Canada. Last Saturday, you may have felt an earthquake near Wonowon late in the morning, so we'll discuss that incident and earthquakes in the Peace in general.Then, Jordan Prentice welcomes Patrick Ferris of the Blizzard Bicycle Club to the studio to chat all things bikes as we move into prime cycling season.Tune in to This Week in the Peace every Friday at 10am MST on 100.1 Moose FM and Moose FM and Fort St. John Today social media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Ontario's electricity sector is evolving, as the province navigates the transition to cleaner energy amidst rising demand. In thinkenergy episode 135, we explore the grid's structure and key players, highlighting the crucial role of distributors (Local Distribution Companies or LDCs) in facilitating this transition. Guest Teresa Sarkesian, President and CEO of the Electricity Distributors Association (EDA), sheds light on LDCs' frontline efforts and pivotal contributions shaping the energy landscape. Related links   Teresa Sarkesian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teresa-sarkesian-53898613/   Electricity Distributors Association: https://www.eda-on.ca/  Green Button information: https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-information-and-protection/green-button  Electrification and energy transition panel report: https://www.ontario.ca/document/ontarios-clean-energy-opportunity-report-electrification-and-energy-transition-panel  Ontario Electricity Support Program: https://ontarioelectricitysupport.ca/  Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en     To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod     ...   Transcript: Trevor Freeman  0:07  Hi, welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, at think energy at hydro ottawa.com Hi, everyone, welcome back. Now it's no secret that Ontario's electricity sector is transforming rapidly as it moves to both decarbonize the grid itself, you know, we have a very clean grid in Ontario, but it's not totally carbon free. And to support the growing demand for electricity as our customers across the province, take steps to electrify and change how they use energy. The show is all about exploring those changes, among other things, and today is no different. But before we dive into our conversation today, I think it would be helpful for me to spend just a few quick minutes on some basics about how our electricity grid is structured in Ontario, and who some of the key players are. Now I know some of our listeners will know this already, but it can be hard to keep track of all those key players. And Ontario's structure is a little different than some of the neighboring jurisdictions no two jurisdictions are exactly alike. So, a refresher is never a bad thing. Now the most basic description is that electricity is largely generated at central generation facilities. So, think nuclear power plants are your electric generating stations, some gas fired generating stations and large-scale wind and solar installations. We call these entities generators simple as that. That electricity is then transmitted across the province in an interconnected grid of high voltage transmission lines, which also connect to other jurisdictions such as neighboring provinces and states, and Ontario, Hydro One runs the transmission network. Now you've probably seen this transmission network. These would be the large metal towers that you see out in the middle of a field when you're driving along the highway or in rural areas that have electricity wires strung way up high in the air. The last stage before it gets to the end user is called distribution. So, this is where electricity is taken from those high voltage lines stepped down to a usable voltage for residential and commercial customers via transformers and substations, and then distributed over a network of overhead and underground wires, then these would be the wires that you would see at the top of those wooden or composite poles that are along the side of the road in your neighborhood. The entities that run this distribution part are called distributors, again, simple as that. So, there's a few other key players that are worth mentioning here. Energy Policy is primarily the jurisdiction of the provincial government, who sets the general direction and associated rules and regulations accordingly. The Ontario Energy Board or OEB is the regulatory body who governs what all those other players do and enacts the government mandate. And finally, at least for today's purposes, we have the system operator. It's called The Independent Electricity System Operator in Ontario, or IESO, who runs the system. So, if you're in Windsor, Ontario, or Ottawa, or North Bay, and you want to turn on your air conditioner, or plug your EV in to charge, the IESO is responsible for making sure there's enough power on the grid to handle that load. So, I hope everyone is still with me and feel free to pause and do some jumping jacks if that was a lot to take in. Our conversation today is going to be focused on the role of the distributor. So, for full disclosure, as you know, I work for hydro Ottawa who is one of those distributors, we serve most electricity customers in the City of Ottawa, and the neighboring village of Casselman and in Ontario, you will often hear distributors referred to as local distribution companies or LDCs. So, forgive me if I slip into that acronym throughout the conversation today, that's really just the sort of common name that we refer to those distributors as. But I'll try to mix it up and make sure that, that I'm explaining that acronym throughout as well. So, the distributor is really the front line, the customer facing entity of the entire electricity system. If you are an electricity customer, and you think about the electricity system, you are probably thinking about your distributor. Chances are you get your bill from a distributor, even though for most customers, most of what you pay on that bill doesn't actually go to the LDC. Some of it stays with your local distribution company, but most of it goes to the transmitter to the generator, to the IESO etc. When the power goes out, it's probably your LDC that you call and it's your LDC that will give you a restoration time. Sometimes outages are caused by issues up the line, so to speak in the transmission portion of the grid. But often the issue is a localized one. And it's your LDC that is identifying the problem and fixing it, whether that means rolling a truck to string new cable, or performing switching to work around the problem. And finally, it's your LDC that is really on the frontlines of the energy transition. While all parts of the grid must then have started to change, the LDCs are really working hand in hand with our customers to identify where and how fast and new demand is needed to bridge that gap between customers and policymakers to enable more and more renewable generation. And also to determine what new technologies or programs we need to pilot and scale up. And it's really the LDCs that are driving change in the way that electricity is managed at the individual customer level moving forward. So, to help us make some sense of this, I'm happy to have Teresa Sarkesian on the show today. Teresa is the president and CEO of the electricity Distributors Association, which is a role that she's held since 2016. This is actually Teresa second time on the show the first being back in December 2021. So we're happy to have Teresa back, Teresa, welcome back to the show.   Teresa Sarkesian  6:23  Thanks so much, Trevor. I'm really delighted to be back.   Trevor Freeman  6:27  Yeah, we're glad to have you. So, like I said, you were back on our show in 2021. I don't know if it's because of how COVID has changed our lives or if this is just the way things go. But sometimes, you know, weeks seem like years. So, 2021 is a long time ago. Let's start by refreshing our listeners on the role and mandate of the electricity Distributors Association.   Teresa Sarkesian  6:49  Sure, thing so the electricity Distributors Association, or the EDA our little acronym represents Ontario's public and private electric utilities that distribute electricity to 5.4 million homes, businesses and institutional customers across the province. And I should note that those 5.4 million customers really refers to build accounts so you have families that are behind a build account. So effectively the millions and millions of Ontarians and businesses that operate and live here are customers of our utilities. And as you know our members are on the front lines of power, and have developed a strong trust with their customers by providing safe, reliable and affordable service for over 100 years. The EDA itself provides analysis and networking and advocacy for our members to ensure that the energy policy direction and framework in Ontario is fair and balanced, supporting the financial viability of utilities to deliver service and ensuring affordability for customers. And long term, we are looking to ensure that our local distribution company members can become the premier energy solution providers to their customers, and that they're able to provide the value-added services that customers are already expecting from them but are going to grow with the energy transformation and electrification in the future.   Trevor Freeman  8:09  Yeah, it's kind of like I said, when people think about the electricity sector, they're probably thinking about their distributor. And the EDA is kind of that common voice for those distribution companies. So, you first joined the EDA back in 2009, and have been the president and CEO since 2016. So, we'll look ahead and talk about the future in a minute. But before we do that, tell us about how things have changed so far during your tenure. How are things different from 2009 When you first joined the organization?   Teresa Sarkesian  8:40  Yeah, and you know, this is almost like perfect timing, Trevor, because I've been at the association now for 15 years, I'm just marking my 15-year anniversary. So, feels really apropos to kind of reflect and look back. So, I want to break down my answer into two parts. So, I'm going to talk to you about some, I guess, just my own personal observations about the electricity system at large. And then I'm going to talk more about the changes in distribution. But some of the changes that I thought were really quite significant and profound, sort of when I joined the industry in 2009, I joined at a time when there was the Green Energy Act, and the province was looking to connect all kinds of renewable energy generation to the electricity grid. So that was fairly significant. Another thing that was happening with the province is that they closed down coal fired generation. That was pretty massive. In fact, I think, at the time, it was the largest kind of carbon reduction initiative in North America. And I think even to this date today, I think it still is something that Ontario really has to be proud of. Another thing that you know, at the time, I think that was you know, fairly significant in 2015 is just the expectation of what the demand would be. What was interesting, sort of like the past for 15 years, the demand from customers for electricity was actually flat or declining. And that's all changed. Now. 15 years later, we're, we're now forecasting, massive increases in in demand of energy, which could potentially be doubling in the future. And the other point I'd like to make is just the nuclear renaissance that we're having. I think when I joined the sector in 2009, I'll tell you, I think the public opinion of nuclear was actually quite low. And that's been completely turned around lots of geopolitical events around the world, I think, have driven that. And now that nuclear is having a huge Renaissance. And you're seeing, you know, lots of new investments in nuclear. And we're not talking about shutting down reactors anymore. We're talking about refurbishing and expanding. So those are some of the things that I've observed over the last 15 years that have really changed. And for local distribution companies, I think what I have seen is a growing expectation by both government and the regulators for electric utilities to do more to both support the grid reliability and meet growing expectation from customers. So, I started in the sector in 2009, it was right on the brink of implementation of smart meters, and time of use. And what was interesting is that was mandated, there were very few jurisdictions in the world that actually had mandated smart meters and time of use pricing. So again, Ontario is was one of the first. And so that was a big change for LDCs. To move from, you know, smart meters and having to bring in that technology and also support the technology of time of use. I did mention the Green Energy Act at the time, we suddenly had to connect 1000s and 1000s, of new solar and wind generation, as well. And that was all new. There were no protocols, there were no standards for that. So that was fairly significant as well. And when I kind of fast forward to I guess, more recently, there have been a lot of changes from government, I think they've really supported our industry, they understand the trust that we have, with our customers. And they've implemented, you know, a number of new changes in terms of rate structures, they've asked us to implement ultra low-rate pricing that can support overnight electric vehicle charging. And they've also asked us to introduce a green button digital platform that allows customers to download their energy data and share with third parties for you know, different assessments and tools for lowering energy costs. But it's all not, you know, unicorns and kittens, there's challenges to for our sector, grid resilience was, you know, not really, people talked about it in 2009, but not like they're talking about it now, because of climate change. And we are seeing more frequent storms, causing, you know, obviously, outages for the customer, and also significant damage to the distribution grid. And I know that hydro Ottawa has faced more than its fair share of very destructive storms over the past few years, we have Yes, I can't remember which Victoria Day weekend where we had, I didn't ever know how to say it the derecho or the derecho. So there, we weren't getting storms we've never even heard of before. And unfortunately, I think that is our new normal. So, grid resilience is something that we are very concerned about, and we need to make sure we've got the appropriate investments for that. So those are just a few of the highlights that, you know, when I came into the sector sort of things that were kind of ramping up, and then what's happening now, but I guess what I could say, the commonality is there's constant change in the sector. And what I'm seeing going forward is that change is going to be accelerated.   Trevor Freeman  13:40  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's fascinating to listen to you lay it all out like that. Thinking back to 15 years ago, it's hard to even remember, you know, not having smart meters, having meters that really just ticked forward and measured your consumption over the course of a month, and someone would come and read that. And, you know, having declining or even flat demand profiles that aren't increasing is so different from the world that we are in today. But I think what you said there at the end is really important. We are in our industry, an organization that knows about change, we're constantly changing, which helps us as we look forward into your point, we're going to see that level of change and the pace of change accelerate. So, I think that sets us up pretty well. So, let's start to look forward, then I know that the EDA is about to launch a new vision paper. So, we're going to dive into some of the details. But maybe let's start by kind of a high-level summary of what is the vision that you are trying to lay out with this paper?   Teresa Sarkesian  14:42  Okay, and no problem. So, I think what I want to start just give a little bit of background as to why we did this. We've done a couple of vision papers and implementation plans in the past. But you know, they were like seven, eight years ago and things have changed a lot even in Seven or eight years. So, what we've been seeing, obviously, I think the big change over the last few years has been the big focus on meeting Net Zero targets in 2050, that we are going to get to net zero in terms of our greenhouse gas emissions. Not only in Canada, but this is actually a bit of a global commitment, you know, for countries that have signed on to that objective. So, what happens when you set up, you know, those big audacious goals? You have all kinds of organizations and entities looking at how are we going to get there, how much it's going to cost? What do we need to do to get there? And so, when we started reviewing some of these publications, both in Ontario, Canada, and actually in other jurisdictions, they were very good. They talked about what supply mix that we need the investment in transmission, but almost 100% of the papers, Trevor, if you can believe this, just neglected distribution, no one talked about distribution, they didn't talk about how distribution is going to have to change what the investments would be. And then we'll so we said it's going to be critical for us to identify the electric utility role and the energy transition, and how the sector will need to be grid ready to support electrification, economic development, grid resilience, and customer preferences. So, we view that LDCs are going to be pivotal in enabling Ontario's low carbon economy, navigating the challenges posed by climate policies, electrification trends, and these evolving customer demands. And with Ontario's growing economy and the demands for housing intensify, LDCs must innovate to effectively meet these accelerating electricity needs and changing preferences. And right now, we've seen the ISO is predicting significant consumption growth from 144 terawatt hours in 2023, to 240 terawatt hours and 2050 not quite double, but it's getting close. And so, this rapid growth demands urgent attention to adopt new strategies and to ensure that the local distribution companies can make the necessary investments in grid enhancements to expand the capacity and capability of the distribution system. So, while reliability and affordability remain Paramount customers do expect additional value from their utility service. And, you know, we are seeing all sorts of things that are happening, you know, such as the need for swift electric vehicle charging installation, and other upgrades that will increase the electrical load. We see that LDCs are more frequently interacting with businesses that seek utility partners to achieve their energy management, sustainability and ESG goals. And in parallel, the LDC must prepare to respond to increase climate change induced extreme weather events. So, recognizing the essential role of LDCs in the energy transition, we've worked in collaboration with industry experts to outline a vision of the role of utilities, so they can enable economic development, housing growth and electrification. And the report identifies urgent and practical steps that LDCs in partnership with the government, and its agencies must take in the near term to achieve the benefits of this transition. So, what you'll see in the paper is recommendations related to the need for clear policy direction on regulatory frameworks to support LDCs in becoming grid ready, and with a continued focus on affordability and enabling a customer choice and opportunity. And we also discuss issues like workforce needs. And we also emphasize the role of human capital in enabling technological advancements. So that's very high level what it is, and I will get into it a bit more as we have our discussion further.   Trevor Freeman  18:41  Yeah, I think it's a good way to frame it of the entire sector is changing at all levels. But what you're really doing is laying out that vision that roadmap for the distributors, in particular, and I think that's great. Maybe like, who is the audience for this paper? Who are you kind of directing this at?   Teresa Sarkesian  18:59  Well, we're still putting the crossing the T's and dotting the I's., but I think it's about 80 pages. So, it's not going to be for everyone, obviously, you know, government decision makers, government, policymakers, people that work in their regulatory agencies and our energy board, the Independent Electricity System Operator, we did try to make it accessible. There is an executive summary that's about two or three pages, which I think will be of great interest to a lot of people to read. And I think it gives a very kind of a high-level overview of what's in the document. So that's something that we're trying to do. And, you know, obviously our LTC members are an audience as well. They've been working with us hand in glove the last few months we've had extensive member meetings we had a board committee that helped steer this paper. But you know, ultimately, the paper is really focused on our customers because its customers and businesses that are driving a lot of this change for the future, whether it's businesses that are on their own journey on environmental, social and governance ESG objectives, and they're looking for more low carbon communities to invest in its customers who are very interested in EV charging, and maybe what the opportunity for the batteries can be to sell that storage back to the grid. It's, it's really the customers that are driving this change.   Trevor Freeman  20:31  Right Yeah, and I mean, the nature of this medium is I don't know who's out there listening. But I'd encourage, you know, all of our listeners, when this comes out, take a look at it and get some insight into kind of how the distributors role is laid out there. So, let's dive into some of the details. You know, you outline obviously, some of the traditional roles and functions of the LDCs. So, from maintaining, owning and maintaining the infrastructure, the poles and wires, and doing customer metering and billing, that stuff's not going away, we're going to keep doing those things. But you also highlight some of these emerging roles that have begun to appear, or that we'll see in the next couple of years, you know, a more of a focus on distributed energy resources, like solar on roofs, for example, that LDCs are going to have to work to both enable as well as integrate into our own systems. It's going to include things like more customer programs, and rate design, etc. I'm curious, you know, how are LDCs going to balance that traditional role that we've already been doing, along with this rapidly new expanding set of roles that we need to tackle?   Teresa Sarkesian  21:38  That's a great question, Trevor. So, look, LDCs will continue, as we always have been to be responsible for safe, reliable and affordable delivery of electricity to customers, customers can count on us to do that 24/7. And even with all these anticipated grid expansions, we're not going to be shut down, if the critic dispatches so, you know, we're experts at multitasking in our sector, and we will continue to do so. And with the increases, as you mentioned, in distributed energy resources, and electrification, there are the pressures for us to adapt, modernize and change how we ensure the safety and reliability in the service to customers. And the emerging roles and responsibilities aren't something that's in the distant future. You know, as I mentioned before, changes the constant, we have been engaging in ongoing adaptation. And so, when I think about the future, and I think about what we call grid modernization, it really is part of the ongoing continuous improvement, and the pursuit of the digital utility of the future, that every utility is on that journey. So, you know, utilities have been bringing in new technologies, particularly related to information technology, communications, and digital solutions. And so, while we're in early stages, we are expecting our members to become more digitally based in the future, they're going to be introducing advanced distribution management systems to monitor the grid. And they're also going to have distributed energy resource management systems to monitor all the connections that are behind the meter. So, I think what is different now than in the past, is simply that the pace of change is being dramatically accelerated. So, for example, it took us about 100 years to get the grid to its current size, yet, we need to almost double the current grid in 25 years. So, we have to move four times as fast. And the grid is not going to be built with just simple poles and wires and one way energy flow like it has been for basically the last 100 years, it's going to be a lot more complex, we're going to see two-way energy flows, so it's not just us sending power to the customer one way, they're potentially going to be selling back their energy generation or their energy storage back onto the grid. So, we need to have that temerity, that two-way, power flow. So that's going to be a big change. And we also expect there to be a lot more customer interaction. They want to leverage their own generation and storage behind the meter. And we as utilities, want to be able to leverage that to help us with you know, reliability, Storm outage, other emergency situations. So, we see there's going to be a greater interactive relationship with customer than simply, you know, maybe sending a bill to them or offering them conservation programs, it's going to be much more dynamic than it has been in the past. And so, you know, over the last two decades, and we talked about this a bit already, the utility has been modernizing the system in response to government policy initiatives, regulatory requirements, and customer preferences. One other example, recently, utilities were required to implement something called green button. And we've been also engaging by bringing them more into the system through net metering. And a lot of our members are also involved in various pilot projects with the Independent Electricity System Operator and with Enercan to look at all kinds of new LTC models and functions. So, and you're going to see a lot of this actually, in our vision paper is that to really be effective, cost effective. To make sure this happens at the accelerated pace, we do need for there to be proactive policy and regulatory changes, to remove barriers and empower LDCs to embrace these new evolving roles in shaping the future of the energy sector. And as I mentioned before, customers are demanding it. And I want to point out a research report that came out by the International Energy Agency just late last year. And they made it very clear that in quite a number of countries around the world, the lack of the regulatory permission to provide more investments in the distribution system is now becoming a significant barrier to new renewable energy projects connecting on the system. And while we don't have that situation here in Ontario, if we don't start moving quickly, in terms of reforming the regulatory context, then we might be like some of these other countries, and we don't want to be that a barrier, you want to be able to enable what our customers want on the grid.   Trevor Freeman  26:07  Yeah, so I'm going to ask you a question about that last point in a minute. But I think your framing of the ways that the sector is going to change, and the way our customers are going to interact with us is going to change is really great. And it's something that you know, often comes up in conversation. And I often say, there is no single strategy or tool here, we can't solve the coming challenges with just more poles and wires. We can't solve it with just new innovative solutions, we need all of those things, we need more poles and wires. But we also need more programming, more innovation, more technology, we need to utilize those distributed energy resources out there on the grid. So, I think that's a great way to frame it. Okay, so let's talk about grid planning a little bit. So LDCs play a really key role in helping forecast the needs of the future, both for our own distribution systems, but also feeding up into those broader provincial needs. So, the insight that we gain from our customers, we pass up to the IESO, for example, so that they can do planning at the provincial level. Traditionally, this is a pretty consistent process. You know, in the past, we get a sense from municipalities and developers, how cities are going to expand and grow. And we've generally been able to count on the typical home using roughly the same amount of electricity as homes that are out there today. So, we account for a certain expansion of commercial customers based on the Intel that we get from those customers. And we know roughly what they're going to use. The problem is that model's kind of being turned on its head a little bit. So, we now need to account for even our existing customers increasing their load because they are electrifying or they want to add EV chargers. And new developments today are likely going to have increased demand compared to some of the historical developments, because we're going to see all electric communities or at the very least more electrified and uses. So I know you don't have a crystal ball yet that tells us exactly how this change is going to happen. But what are LDCs doing to adapt their long-term grid planning to account for this uncertainty?   Teresa Sarkesian  28:22  Yeah, you're so right, Trevor forecasting is getting more challenging. And I just want to start with a little story before I get into my answer about that. So, you know, electric vehicles are kind of the hot thing right now. And you know, although people I think are still on a waiting list for certain cars, there's lots of others that are available. And so, one of the concerns that our sector had was we didn't know where these electric vehicles were going to pop up. And we weren't getting any kind of pre advanced warning when people started making orders or, you know, advanced purchases for electric vehicles. So, we actually did a great advocacy campaign, with the province with both the Ministry of Energy of the Ministry of Transportation, to secure postal code data for utility, so they could see where people were going to be purchasing electric vehicles to help them with their own planning, in terms of, you know, making sure that their local feeders were upgraded their local transformers, and so that just got announced a year ago. But that's obviously not going to be good enough. And that just tells us about electric vehicles, you know, in the near term, but this is I think, you know, having sightlines into our customer behavior, whether we do that proactively with you know, consultations and communications with customers, or we can do it by you know, pinging the meter, or getting data such as postal codes. We are going to have to, you know, adapt and have greater visibility and sightlines into the customer. And so this is that some of that technology that I was talking about earlier, the sophisticated future grid is going to need lots of visibility and transparency, for usage and investment to be able to, you know, look at these two way power flows, look at how customers are behaving, in order to better plan the system, we also need to maximize and optimize the data that we have, you know, from our planners, it's going to be vital to protecting the grid reliability and resilience, we're going to have to have more partnerships with municipalities, in terms of their energy planning for the future and things that they want for their community. And, you know, one of the things that we're asking for on our paper is actually to, you know, rethink the distribution system plan, that the utilities have to file with the OMB every five years, and start building in a, you know, Grid Modernization plan within that broader plan. So, we can get the regulator to start looking ahead and seeing what these requests are, it'll be important to also have various performance metrics and filing guidelines for grid modification from the energy board. So, you know, these are some of the things I think that the membership is going to have to look at but it is going to be a very iterative experience, because it's just it's the pace of change is the big unknown. And so, everyone talks about these things. But you know, I saw something today, I think it was from Ford Motor Company, and they're kind of slowing down, it's taken them a while to retool their plants. So that could take an extra two years now for them to be up and running and producing electric vehicles. So, there's going to be all these other pieces of the puzzle that are constantly going to be changing a moving and evolving. It is I think, planning for the future is going to be very challenging. And I do expect the province to start talking about this higher level, maybe starting at the end of this year, they just came off a massive exercise related to the energy transition electrification panel. And I do expect to see more guidance from the province as well, in terms of how they're going to manage this planet, because it's not just planning for us. It's planning for everybody else in the system, too.   Trevor Freeman  32:02  Yeah. And for listeners out there, if you haven't had a look at that energy transition electrification panel reports, a really fascinating read. So, I'd encourage you to take a look at it. You mentioned a lot of interesting things there. So, for our listeners, and I'll probably do a future episode on this so I won't get into detail, but LDCs typically have to file five-year rate applications once every five years that really lay out their plans for those five years and how they're going to fund them. So coincidentally, hydro Ottawa was getting ready to do our next one. And like I said, I'll probably talk about that on a future episode. But one thing we did when it comes to forecasting is, we conducted a electrification study that looks at if we electrify by 2050, like our plans, say we will and you know, society wise, what does that mean for the grid? And some of the inputs we took is, you know, what are the federal plans for electrification? What are our own municipal plans for electrification? What are we hearing from our customers, and that really, is helping us modify and change how we do grid forecasting, based on some of the changes that we're seeing from our customers. So I think this is a really important piece that, like you said, we're going to need to iterate on we're not going to get it right the first time. But we're starting to think of how do we need to change the way we do things in order to keep up with what our customers are doing.   Teresa Sarkesian  33:28  I think one thing I've seen more of the last few years, because this is much more complex than it's been in the past that I've seen, like the IESO, for example, they've done more, you know, scenario setting. So, when they've had their, you know, their APO's and AER safe, they sort of had other two or three scenarios, and they're constantly updating their numbers every year. So, these are other changes that we're starting to see. And even myself, I was just looking at the provincial budget detail the other day, they also set out, you know, scenarios as well. They're just not picking Oh, it's going to be, you know, X amount of deficit. And you know in 2028 they're actually forecasting out different scenarios. So, I think that's another piece I see more in play, that people will, you know, showcase what assumptions they have, and will have maybe two or three different scenarios as well.   Trevor Freeman  34:21  Yeah, and I think it's a, it's a great way to tackle that unknown component to where we've never really been through a change like this before. We've never wholesale changed the way we use energy in our society. So, there's a degree of uncertainty, obviously, and I think, targeting out that kind of, let's call it high, medium, low scenario, or whatever the metric might be, is going to be really critical for us to make sure we're staying within the boundaries of what's possible and what's probable and refining that constantly as we move forward. So that's a great point. Something else you mentioned a little bit ago, that's, you know, could be a bit of a nebulous term is grid modernization now I've actually got a future episode, and specifically about grid modernization and what hydro Ottawa is doing, I think it might actually be our next one. So, we don't need to go into all the details on this. But let's just help our listeners understand what do we mean when we're talking about grid modernization? And why is this important? Why is it important to our customers that we do this kind of back-office improvement?   Teresa Sarkesian  35:23  So, I'm going to keep it really simple, because I know you're going to do a deep dive on it and a future episode. But essentially, Grid Modernization are improvements that LDCs will make simply to augment our capabilities, and enable us to offer new or improved services to customers. So back-office improvements might look like things like real time sensing, and monitoring systems to improve efficiency and reliability. Or we may be investing in new digital infrastructure communication systems to improve safety, cybersecurity, it can also include more visible improvements to safeguard our infrastructure against extreme weather, and climate change to reduce outages. And like one, I guess, example that some of your customers might already be recognizing, you know, we made investments in green button, which enables customers to download their data, send it to a third party if they want to save on customer use. So, it really is the whole soup to nuts, it really is not just one type of technology or solution. It is a combination of a whole series of things that the that the utility will need to do. And I think why we want to do it, I think when we look at all of the pressures on the system, from NetZero objectives to housing priorities, you know, to accelerate broadband development, and support electrification, the pressures seem to be never ending. And the only way that we can respond to all those pressures, is to be grid ready. And, you know, like I said, it's it is a form of continuous improvement. It's just that now it's the pace accelerated pace is such so extraordinary, that we need to have a more dedicated plan. But most importantly, we have to make sure we have dedicated attention by policymakers and regulatory decision makers as well. Because right now, there isn't that dedicated attention to this very important task. Yeah,   Trevor Freeman  37:28  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's great that you bring up all these pressures that we're feeling that it's I think it's time we kind of talk about that elephant in the room, our customers often ask us about affordability, or we're hearing from our customers about affordability, I was actually at a customer event not too long ago, and talking about the change that we're going to see here talking about some of this, you know, large scale transition of our energy sector. These are not small investments that we have to make. We're talking about both an increase of our infrastructure, you know, you mentioned almost doubling the capacity of the grid. We're talking about modernizing our grid systems, that's a lot of back-office work with new technology, and bringing on new programs. Like this is a big change. Energy affordability is already a kind of a challenge today for some folks. So, as we get into this new investment that we have to make as we start moving down the path of the energy transition, how do we balance affordability, especially for our vulnerable populations, with the level of investment that we know is necessary to do the things that we have to do? Yes,   Teresa Sarkesian  38:42  Yes, that's the multibillion-dollar question, Trevor. And it's something I'm going to carve out my response, because there's some things that we've put into our vision paper for the future, because affordability is absolutely critical. And as you know, this is basically a massive restructuring of the economy going forward. So, there's may be other participants who might be playing a funding role. So, you know, right now, obviously, you know, customers aren't monolithic, and you know, residential customers who are struggling to pay bills. Do you have some programs that they can, that they can access, they have the low income Energy Assistance Program, they have the Ontario electricity support program. Some of those are funded by the tax base, some are funded by other electricity customers. The province also gives a rebate to customers in Ontario, and that's a pretty big rebate. I don't think a lot of residential customers are aware of it but it is over 7 billion annually to residential small business customers. That's a lot of money. But I don't know if customers really appreciate that. So, I don't know what's going to be available going forward. These are some of the challenges that you know policy makers, you know, have to address as well. So, when we were thinking about this as part of our paper, we sort of looked at it from a number of perspectives. So, the federal government has set up all these Net Zero targets, they've set out, you know, targets for electric vehicle manufacturing, as well. And so, it might be appropriate for them to share part of the burden with this massive energy transformation. And it's interesting, we actually pulled customers about 2000 Customers two years ago, we asked them a whole series of questions about the changes going forward. And customers do have different perspectives about who should be paying for some of this energy transition. So, when we asked them about who should be paying for electric vehicle, charging infrastructure, and they said, Oh, electricity, customers should pay for that, because that's something that everyone's going to benefit from. When we ask them about, you know, who should be paying for the electricity grid, to address climate change and hit Net Zero targets, they actually the majority, 58% said, the taxpayer should be paying for that. So, I think that's just a very interesting data point. But it's something that, you know, we've been active on in terms of having those conversations with the federal government, saying that, you know, you have offered different subsidies to attract different companies to invest in Ontario, based on our clean grid, but we need to have the whole grid support it. So, you know, we're pursuing federal government support, we also are looking at increased maybe private equity engagement in in our sector. So right now, we have a couple of private members, but there's not a lot of private equity money in the sector, most of our members are municipally owned, and municipalities can't invest in their utility, probably even if they wanted to, because they're in short supply of funds as well, they have their own taxpayer that they have to deal with. So, one of the solutions we are putting forward to government is to increase the private equity threshold, so it doesn't trigger additional taxes, right now, it's only 10% ownership. But we're saying that maybe a tool in the toolbox should be up to 49% ownership. So, it would allow private equity to come the patient capital, they're not maybe looking to seek a return right away. So, there's some you know, flexibility there as well. Another thing we're looking at is to revisit the debt equity ratios of utilities to manage the costs over the long term. So, you'd be effectively amortizing on some of those grid investments as well. So, these are some of the ideas that we have around how we can basically fund the energy transition going forward. You know, and some people say, Well, if you could get customers to think about their energy usage holistically, so if they're going to be, you know, moving away from a, you know, a combustion engine car, and they're going to be using heat pumps, instead of, you know, natural gas heating in their home, if you could get people to think holistically what they're saving on the kind of, you know, GHG side of things, versus what they are going to be spending on electricity, they may actually be spending less if they look at it holistically, but I don't really know, to be honest with you, so that I'd rather focus on the things that we could ask government for, as opposed to asking customers to be, you know, thinking more holistically at their entire energy usage, which is just not how they think. And I think, to change that behavior, would be quite a monumental task going forward. But those are some of the things that we think about, because we are very concerned about the affordability going forward, because it is such a massive change that we're all experiencing.   Trevor Freeman  43:50  Yeah, I think this is another example of there is no single solution here. There is no you know, silver bullet that's going to help us pay for all of this, we need all the tools on the table here, we need to look at all different options. And I think you outlined a couple of them, you know, in what you said about our customers impression of some of this change and who should pay for it. Last episode, I talked to David Coletto, from Abacus data, and he was saying on the whole Canadians really believe that an electrified energy system, we know once we make that transition, we will be more secure, it will be more affordable. And I think those customers who have made some transition in their lives can see the benefit of that. But sometimes the initial hurdle is pretty hard to get over that upfront capital cost. And so, looking for ways, both at the customer level as well as at the utility level, the LDC level I think is going to be important to help get over that initial capital outlay that's required, so that we can realize those benefits that we all know where they are that we know we'll see. So. Yeah, great filling some of those out. So, I know I mentioned that I will get back to this. But I do want to talk to you about the advocacy role that the EDA plays. So, you mentioned, you know, talking to governments and Ontario, the provincial governments across Canada, the provincial government has jurisdiction over most energy matters. So, advocacy to the government is a key role that you play. I'm curious, what are you asking the government to do or to provide to help some of these changes that we're talking about happen? What is the advocacy that you're pushing for with the government?   Teresa Sarkesian  45:32   So, I'm going to try to keep it really simple and just sort of, you know, tie it back to our vision paper for now, because at any given time, I'm working on 20 or 30 l policy issues, primarily with the Ontario government. But this past year, we have expanded our work to also include the federal government, because they have investment tax credits that we are interested in for our members to see if they could be eligible for those. We're interested in them changing things to the Canada Infrastructure Bank, also to provide new sources of equity there. And we're also pursuing grants, as well, for grid modernization. So provincially, a whole whack of issues. But I'm going to go back to our paper just to give your audience a little bit of a sneak peek on some of the things that we're going to be asking for. So, one of the first things we're going to be asking for is to get a common understanding and definition of grid modernization, and electrification. And this is not really new of an idea, we kind of have copied it from the US, there's a lot of jurisdictions, there where very clear objectives that have been set out in order to justify grid modernization, investments. So, we think that it'd be beneficial for Ontario to do that, because then once you have those objectives in place, it is going to make it a lot easier to be able to prioritize grid modernization capabilities, functionalities, and investments in line with those objectives. You know, and then from there, you know, we're looking at creating a series of foundational investments. So going forward, some of the things that we think are foundational, are things like the distributed energy resource management systems and the advanced metering infrastructure, which is sort of like smart meters 2.0, for lack of a better term, and also the advanced distribution management systems. So, we see those are going to be foundational pieces that all utilities are going to need to be able to help customers interact with the grid, and they're going to be necessary grid investments. So how what we see for those is we would like it to be similar policy direction, like we had for smart meters and green button, where you have government mandated activities. And then those are given, you know, a kind of lower standard of evidence with the Ontario Energy Board to support that capital infrastructure, they're deemed as priorities and ties back to that initial plan, where you set objectives, as long as those objectives can be that then those should get a pass through.   Trevor Freeman  48:12  If I could jump in right there just for our listeners. So what Teresa is describing here is, at the moment when there are unique things that are not part of government mandate, yet every LDC and Ontario, of which there are many 60, something I don't even have the number in front of me but every LDC when it comes time to enact that project has to go through a whole exercise of justifying it proving why it's necessary, saying this is why we want to do it. If there was some commonality across LDCs in the province, we wouldn't have to put as much effort into, you know, the report writing side of it, we could just get down to business and make these changes that we all know across the province are important. So, I think it's helpful for us to understand how that process works.   Teresa Sarkesian  49:00  Yeah, and thank you for interjecting on that, Trevor, because if government wants us to move fast, we can, but we need that certainty. So, you know, we're no different than any even though we're regulated monopolies. We're really no different than any other business that wants to do business in Ontario, you're always looking for certainty and clarity, from legislation from policy from regulation, because the uncertainty is what slows things down. Another recommendation that I'm moving forward with is that we need to move beyond pilot projects. I had a conversation with a consultant who is working with Enercan on this and they want to move beyond I love their term, death by demonstration. We've got a couple of dozen pilot projects currently in the sector, whether they're funded provincially through the IESO or they're funded federally through Natural Resources Canada, and you know, there's some very exciting results that are coming out of those. But some of those pilot projects have been going on for all almost four years, in one case, almost five. And at some point, you need to pull off the band aid said, yes, this is a success, all LDCs would be eligible for funding in this. So, we need to be able to scale it up. Or we just say no, that's not going to work. But being in this constant state of the pilot projects, while it's informative, at some point, someone has to have the courage to say we're moving forward, this is going to be scalable. Another recommendation we have is to create an action plan to develop a comprehensive human resource strategy to address quantity quality, and partnership aspects of the labor force going forward. There's some great work that electricity, Human Resources Canada has done. And, you know, DC 28,000, replacement and new jobs in our sector, by 2050 and that's, the electricity sector at large across Canada. And I did some, I think back of the envelope calculations to try to figure out, okay, some assumptions about distribution. And we're looking at close to 10,000 new positions in the sector, over the next 25 years. Every sector is having challenges, filling current jobs, never mind jobs, that we're not even sure what they are quite yet. So we don't necessarily have the right programs at the universities and colleges or private training institutions to start getting the right people and talent into our organization. And, you know, so we need help for that. And, you know, I am encouraged, I saw a little announcement out of the province yesterday to have more electricians down on the Chatham Kent area, because that's the whole greenhouse industry. And so, I said, Okay, that's exciting. So, people are starting to pay attention, but we need it more than just in one local community, it needs to be province wide. And, you know, like I mentioned before, we need to have more conversations about what the funding models are going to be to fund the energy transition. So, these are some of the issues and recommendations that we're taking forward from our vision paper. But day to day, I guess that's the other thing, I want to mention in terms, the change I've seen, I've never seen us work on so many issues, prepare so many submissions, invest so many staff at various tables and working groups. And we love doing all that work. We love representing our members at every table of discussion possible, but I've never seen so many. And they're not just oh, you're there for a month, and you're done. Some of these they are multi year. So, they have longer legs, because they are far more complex. But you know, we're working every day, you know, for members that way. Very, very proud to represent our sector think it's a fantastic sector. And the fact that they're going to play such a pivotal role in the future makes us only want to work harder to make sure we get the best of everything for our membership.   Trevor Freeman  52:54  Yeah, I know, we echo that at our level, we can certainly see a lot more stakeholdering and engagement happening with all players in the sector, but especially the government as they figure out this energy transition to right, let's not, you know, let's not forget that the government needs to figure out where policy needs to go to lead it, and it's a great role that you're playing to kind of bring the voice of the distributors to the government. Because again, as we've talked about a couple of times, we're really on the front lines, and we're hearing from our customers, and we're seeing what needs to change right at that customer level, in order to enable some of this stuff that's happening so that that conversation between the LDCs and the government I think is really important. So you know, we don't work in a vacuum, I just mentioned a number of stakeholders in our sector. And I highlighted the interconnected nature of our grid at the beginning of our conversation. There are a lot of different players working together to really, at the end goal is bring power to the customer. How do you see the existing model changing or expanding in terms of, you know, the kinds of partnerships that LDCs have moving forward? So you know, you mentioned private equity is being a potential upcoming role. There are things like technology companies that are developing innovative solutions, who, you know, we maybe were a bit more arm's length with in the past. There's a changing nature of our relationship with the customers, you brought up the idea of going from one way power flow to kind of two way back and forth. arrangement. How do you see that partnership evolving in the future?   Teresa Sarkesian  54:30  Well, I think the good news is, there's a very strong foundation knowledge to build on. So, I'm going to talk about three different areas. I'm going to talk about sort of shared services across utilities, and I'll talk about a partnership with the private industry. And I'd like to talk about the engagement with customers as well. So firstly, there's lots of shared services going around in the industry already. There are all kinds of partnerships that members are trying to reduce costs for customers and find the best solution. So instead of saying, having 60 utilities run, seek out the best solution, you know, you get everyone working collaboratively to find a solution at the best price for customers. So, we've seen a lot, just in my 15 years I've been there you've got in the past, there was, you know, common delivery of conservation programs, members work together on common engineering standards, lots of mutual aid assistance agreements across among utilities, for Storm Recovery. I've seen shared billing services, bulk purchasing products, and shared control room practices and services. And I've seen private sector play a much bigger role in utilities, as well. I've had the privilege to attend some openings, and launches of micro grids, where you have maybe a solar company and an energy storage, battery company, that are part of that group with utility, creating a micro grid for their community to provide maybe warming and cooling charging services when there's a major outage, for example. And I've seen now, some smart grids, you know, one that's already been implemented up in the north that has a significant private sector partner. And I've seen it also there's a new one, that's another one in the north, that's going to be developed with a private sector partner. And I've seen, not just Ontario businesses, I've seen what businesses come in one of our members is doing a distribution system operator pilot model with a partner in from Norway. So, I'm really encouraged, I think the foundation is already there to kind of build on all those successes we already have, and do more, you know, and we talked about the customers going forward as well, that they're going to be to help playing a role, or we hope they're going to be playing a role. Because there's a lot of energy, battery storage and solar generation, sort of behind the meter, whether it's a farm, or it's a residential customer, or it's a big industrial customer. And so, we want to be able to optimize all of those resources into the system to be of benefit to all customers to reduce costs. But we'd have to give an incentive to those customers to participate, no one is going to let you know a utility access their, you know, solar panel generation or their battery storage, unless they're going to be getting paid to do so. And I think that's going to be really important going forward, because we don't want to over build the grid, I mean, the grid is going to be so big, going forward. And we have to find ways to avoid over building it. Because we don't want to be in a situation where you know, customers are having to pay too much for a grid that's not properly optimized. So trying to find solutions behind the meter, that will maybe either avoid or delay bigger generation investments or transmission investments, or even actually distribution investments, we want to optimize that. But right now, there's not really a lot of permission to do that. So we need to get that legislative and regulatory permission to do that, to turn those, you know, more passive customers into prosumers, that they're basically your their proactive customers by selling their energy storage back to the grid. So I'm really optimistic. I think we've got a great foundation work to do on the customer peace, letting them participate as prosumers and the system, but I'm pretty optimistic that that we can get that job done.   Trevor Freeman  58:27  Yeah, I think it really highlights, there's a lot to be excited about when it comes to the change, that's going to happen. There's a lot of opportunity out there both for the LDCs, for the other stakeholders for our customers, that this energy transition, this change is going to bring about, you know, there's some challenges to I know, he talked about the challenges. I wonder, though, what do you see, as you know, one of the single biggest are a series of risks to achieving the vision that you've outlined in the paper, how could this go off the rails and not happen the way we need it to happen?   Teresa Sarkesian  59:03  Well, I always like to be glass half full as opposed to half empty, but you're taking me down that road? Trevor? So I'm going to answer that question.   Trevor Freeman  59:11  It's my job.   Teresa Sarkesian  59:11  So you know, obviously, our vision for the future role is big, but it's practical. The energy transition is upon us now. It's not something to contemplate for the future. So we think that the biggest risk is effectively inaction or kind of, you know, kicking the issue down the road, 510 years. We're seeing this right, nearby jurisdictions in the US are taking action. There's been significant funding out of the Biden administration, for all kinds of initiatives from you know, cybersecurity, to grid modernization down there. They're doing they're very competitive. They want to attract businesses, to the US. And so, you know, that's a major competition for Ontario. So if we don't seize the opportunities to kind of start working on these important issues now, we could lose economic development opportunities, we could lose jobs, we could lose investment, we could lose our talent as well, that may want to move to another jurisdiction. So to mitigate that risk, the LDCs, and policymakers have to work together on developing a shared vision around electrification and grid modernization, develop a plan of action and create a realistic timeline to turn that vision into reality.   Trevor Freeman  1:00:26  Yeah, it's a it's a great point. And I think it's important for people to understand that change is happening, the change is going to happen, whether we want it to or not. And, you know, often sometimes people say, Are we are we really going to see this change? I think we're already seeing it, we're already seeing customers want to change the way they interact with energy. The risk here is if we don't react quick enough or properly enough, the costs of that change becomes higher the reliability of the grid that we're working with, goes down, that general customer experience is not where it needs to be. And then you've highlighted some other ones, you know, we can really struggle with talent if we're not offering them the kind of cool innovative roles that they're looking for. But the neighboring jurisdiction is, so it's not so much that the change may or may not happen, it's how do we react to it in a way that really serves all of our stakeholder the best. So, Teresa, this has been a really great conversation. And I really appreciate you taking the time to join us and chat with us today. I think there's a number of things that we talked about today that really set up future conversations I'm going to have nicely. So thanks for the half for teeing that up. And this is your second time on the show. No doubt, there'll be a third time because I think there's a lot more that down the road, we can we can pick apart. So thanks for that. We typically end our interviews here with some common questions to all our guests. So to start off, what is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?   Teresa Sarkesian  1:01:56  So one I recently enjoyed it's by a friend too. By Darrell Bricker, he wrote Empty Planet, and that is very, very good talks about actually declining global population. And what that means from everything from, you know, businesses to climate change to pension plans. So it's a fascinating read. People have time for it.   Trevor Freeman  1:02:19  Yeah, very cool. I'll check that out. So kind of the same question. What's a movie or a show that you'd recommend to everybody?   Teresa Sarkesian  1:02:24  I watched one a few months ago was a Netflix series called the Blue Zone. And it was an investigation on people who had made it to 100 I think they called Central Jamarion's I can't remember the name. But basically, they interviewed all these people living around the world about what it takes to get to be 100. So I really enjoyed it. It was just, it was just very beautifully done. And the people they talked to, I found fascinating and so interesting. So I really enjoyed it.   Trevor Freeman  1:02:52  Yeah, I also watched that one that was really great. If somebody offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go

On Episode 101 of Outdoors with Lawrence Gunther, Lilly describes interesting exhibits at The British Museum during their recent visit to the UK. The two then meet up with Philip Ling of Maitland Tower to experience the path of totality along the north shore of the St. Lawrence River. Lawrence has some tips to share on eye safety in the outdoors and reflects on what it was like to experience the solar eclipse in the path of totality. HighlightsShow Open (00:00)Visiting The British Museum with Lilly (00:53)Introducing Philip Ling of Maitland Tower (06:29)Philip and Lawrence Discuss the Solar Eclipse (10:03)Eclipse Soundscapes (15:18)Outdoor Eye Safety Tips (24:00)Lawrence's Solar Eclipse Experience (25:41)Show Close (27:20)Guest Bio - Philip Ling - Skipper, Owner, P.Eng. LEED AP; Certified Biomimicry SpecialistPhilip is a licensed professional engineer (electrical), LEED AP. In 1996, he co-founded Powersmiths International Corp. where he is VP of Technology. Powersmiths is a clean-tech company with a long history of market leadership in ultra-high efficiency low voltage dry-type transformers, internet data center power distribution systems, advanced metering and Sustainability Management.Philip has written and presented dozens of technical papers over the past 25 years covering efficiency and power quality, and received a national award for technological leadership in energy efficiency from Natural Resources Canada. He also sits on multiple professional and community advisory committees.He volunteers on several committees in his community including Markham Environmental Advisory Committee. He is committed to wildlife preservation and owns 87 acres of provincially significant wetlands, and has signed a conservation agreement for 400 acres with the Couchiching Conservancy. He has both solar hot water and solar PV systems on his home, and is on his second electric car. He believes in leading by example and making a difference.This place in Maitland is the opportunity of a lifetime - to be an enabler - to lead the restoration and transformation of an important part of Canada's early days almost 200 years ago to playing a role for the next 200 years. About Outdoors with Lawrence Gunther:Listen live Saturdays and Sundays at 2:30 p.m. Eastern over basic cable on AMI-audio, or stream episodes as a podcast. Send us your comments at Feedback@AMI.Ca and please rank us on Apple Podcast.For more Lawrence Gunther check out Blue Fish RadioThe Blue Fish Radio show features subjects and people of special interest to the future of water, fish and fishing, and is ranked as one of the top 30 fishing podcasts on the internet. Each week the host, Lawrence Gunther, interviews Canada's “giants” in the fishing industry, CEO's of conservation and sport fishing organizations, leading fish biologists and researchers, government scientists and politicians, and people with local and indigenous knowledge who exemplify the spirit of conservation and citizen science. The Blue Fish Radio Show is the official fishing podcast of Outdoor Canada Magazine. The Show is also rebroadcast across Canada 5-times each week by AMI Audio over basic cable and satellite TV.

In this episode of Flanigan's Eco-Logic, Ted speaks with Chris Calwell, Adjunct Professor of a graduate course on International Renewable Energy at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies in Monterey, CA. He is also a Principal at Ecos Research, focusing on clean energy technologies and their transformation in our society. His other passion, outside of Ecos Research, is proactively investing in cleantech and tracking down the companies that are doing the best job of preventing climate change, as opposed to running down a checklist of bad things companies aren't doing if you want to buy their stock.Chris is an internationally recognized expert operating at the intersection of the technologies and policies needed to address climate change, particularly in the fields of energy storage, electric vehicles, and renewable energy. He and Ted discuss his background, born in Independence, Missouri, grew up in Topeka, Kansas, and attended Trinity University in San Antonio, earning a degree in Environmental Studies. He then went on to Berkeley and joined the Energy Resources Group (ERG), which led him to his first summer job at the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC).Chris served seven years in the NRDC Energy Program, helping to launch NRDC's work on climate change, electric vehicles, and voluntary partnerships with electric utilities to improve residential energy efficiency. Chris then co-founded Ecos Consulting in 1997, working with a team of researchers on behalf of the U.S. EPA ENERGY STAR® program, the California Energy Commission, PG&E, NRDC, NEEA, NYSERDA and Natural Resources Canada to improve the energy efficiency of residential lighting, appliances, power supplies and consumer electronics through voluntary labeling and incentive programs and mandatory efficiency standards.  He and Ted dig into his works in consumer electronics and the external power supply story. They discuss Eco's startling revelations about the standard test for television efficiency at the time, as well as cleantech investment. He shares that he continues to do consulting work in the Energy Star world, and is currently in discussions with them on some additional work related to batteries and EVs.

If you live in Canada, and you've looked at your bank account recently, you'll likely see that, at some point on January 15th, you received your quarterly Climate Action Incentive Payment, or what is colloquially referred to as the carbon tax rebate. Will the rebates be enough to cover what most Canadian families spend on carbon tax each year? That's the question I'll be examining in this episode of Green Neighbour. CONTENTS OF THIS PODCAST: 00:00 - Introduction to the Question 02:15 - Scenario A (Upper-Middle Income) 03:38 - Estimating Expenditures on Natural Gas 10:53 - Scenario B (Middle-Middle Income) 13:34 - Scenario C (Lower-Middle Income) 16:08: Final Analysis 17:26 - Thanks for Watching! SOCIAL MEDIA: • Web: www.green-neighbour.com • Twitter: https://twitter.com/ArtLightstone • Twitter: https://twitter.com/GreenNeighbour • TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@GreenNeighbour • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/greenneighbour/ • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/artlightstone/ SOURCES: Motor fuel prices (Ontario Provincial Government): https://www.ontario.ca/motor-fuel-prices/#:~:text=The%20federal%20carbon%20tax%20is%20now%2014.31%20cents%20per%20litre Fuel consumption ratings search tool (Natural Resources Canada): https://fcr-ccc.nrcan-rncan.gc.ca/en Average Natural Gas Usage Per Month (Shrink that Footprint, 2023): https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/average-natural-gas-usage-per-month/ Average Natural Gas Usage Per Month – 2024 (Shrink that Footprint, Updated, 2024): https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/average-natural-gas-usage-per-month/ How Big is a House? (Shrink that Footprint) https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/how-big-is-a-house/ Federal Carbon Tax (Trans Gas): https://www.transgas.com/customer-central/federal-carbon-tax Federal Carbon Tax (Trans Gas): https://earth.org/carbon-tax-revenue-neutrality/ Canadians receiving first carbon tax rebate of 2024, here's when (CTV News, 2024): https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/canadians-receiving-first-carbon-tax-rebate-of-2024-here-s-when-1.6723609 Brace yourself for surging heating bills (Canadian Taxpayers Federation, 2023) https://www.taxpayer.com/newsroom/brace-yourself-for-surging-heating-bills Canada's budget watchdog troubled by spin around latest report on carbon pricing (CBC, 2023): https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/watchdog-spin-report-carbon-pricing-1.6805441 Gini Coefficients based on the adjusted family after-tax income, by province and territory, 2016 to 2021 (Statistics Canada, 2021): https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/230809/t007b-eng.htm Tax filers and dependants with income by total income, sex and age (Statistics Canada) https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110000801 New analysis finds most Canadian households will save money in switch to electricity (Canadian Climate Institute, 2023): https://climateinstitute.ca/new-analysis-finds-most-canadian-households-will-save-money-in-switch-to-electricity ‘Great Canadian Class Study' reveals strong belief in meritocracy despite low mobility across generations (University of Alberta, 2023): https://www.ualberta.ca/folio/2023/11/great-canadian-class-study-reveals-strong-belief-in-meritocracy.html

Waterpower is Canada's most abundant renewable resource, providing 60 per cent of our electricity. But here's the big question: as Canada looks to an emissions-free future, how can waterpower, one of the oldest power sources on the planet, help us get there? And what do we need to consider? To learn more about our hydroelectric future, we sat down with Gilbert Bennett, President and CEO of WaterPower Canada. Tune in.   Related links   Gilbert Bennett on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gilbert-bennett-86166529/ WaterPower Canada: https://waterpowercanada.ca/  Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube   Follow along on Instagram   Stay in the know on Facebook   Keep up with the posts on X (Formerly Twitter) --- Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So, join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, Happy New Year and welcome back. Here's a fun fact. Canada's electricity sector is one of the cleanest in the world when it comes to greenhouse gas emissions. Now today, we're going to focus on one of the oldest power sources on the planet. Hydropower generates power when flowing water spins a wheel or turbine. It was used by farmers as far back as ancient Greece for mechanical tasks like grinding grain. Canada's oldest hydroelectric generating station that still is in operation today was commissioned right here in Canada's nation's capital in 1891. Generating Station Number 2 is located on Victoria Island in the heart of downtown Ottawa is a stone's throw away from Parliament Hill. It's been providing clean, renewable electricity for more than 130 years. While hydroelectricity first powered our great city and country, it was fossil fuels that quickly became the dominant energy source during the Industrial Age of the 20th century, until nuclear power arrived on the scene in the early 1960s. Now, because Canada is a water rich country, it's not surprising that our water power is our most abundant renewable resource, providing 60% of our country's total electricity. That means six out of every 10 homes in Canada are powered by water. This makes Canada the third largest generator of hydroelectricity in the world, after China and Brazil. To reduce Canada's emissions of greenhouse gasses that cause climate change, we must continue to increase the amount of zero emissions electricity we produce and strategically reduce our reliance on fossil fuels in other sectors. So here is today's big question. Can one of the world's oldest renewable power sources play a major role in Canada's Net Zero future? So, joining us today on the podcast is Gilbert Bennett. He is the president and CEO of WaterPower Canada, founded in 1998. WaterPower Canada is the national nonprofit trade association dedicated to representing the water power industry. Gilbert, welcome to the show.   Gilbert Bennett  03:21 Good morning, Daniel. Great to be here.   Dan Seguin  03:23 Now, you've joined WaterPower Canada at a very interesting time where there's a lot of national and international conversations about developments in hydroelectricity, as countries strive to meet their net zero targets. What is your vision on how water power Canada can participate in Canada's energy transformation and decarbonization?   Gilbert Bennett  03:49 So, we at WaterPower Canada represent the Canadian hydro electric industry, so the owners and operators were the vast majority of the Canadian hydropower fleet. So all the major utilities are members of the association. And we also have our industry partners that design manufacturing constructs for the industry. So given the hydropower provided, over 60% of Canada's electricity supply is going to be the backbone of the electricity industry for decades to come. Our role is to make sure that industry, governments, and the federal government, in particular, understand the important role that we play in the electricity system, and why hydropower is a key advantage of building a renewable future for Canada. So we're going to be aware that we're the dominant renewable supply for the Canadian electricity system. We have important value that's provided in terms of reliability. And I guess the ability to integrate other renewables in the system. So, we're going to be here for decades. We're going to be playing a major role in that transformation and the decarbonization of our economy.   Dan Seguin  04:57 Now, what's the value proposition that hydroelectric power brings to a clean, affordable and NetZero future?   05:07 Right. So, most importantly, we have key attributes. And I sort of touched on that in our last question there, we're firm and reliable. So, think about hydropower, just firm generation, there's water in the reservoir, we're going to be producing power at the power plant. It's not a question of is the wind blowing, is the sun shining? It's long term, high capacity, firm generation. And when I think about high-capacity storage for hydropower, in larger, the larger hydro systems, we're talking about 1000s of megawatts of power generation, delivered for months on end with large reservoir storage. So that's an important attribute that contributes to the reliability of our Canadian electricity system. And secondly, is dispatchable. So, we can adjust output of the plant as necessary to meet needs as they change your day to day order in order to balance out the deliveries from other renewables. So, in the absence of a fossil fuel fleet, hydropower with those capabilities is really important for us to maintain reliability and deliveries on our electricity system.   Dan Seguin  06:18 Gilbert, some people still believe that investments in renewable energy translate to higher electricity costs. But I read on your website that provinces with the highest hydropower installed capacity have the lowest electricity costs, perhaps you can break down why that is and what you think the public should know about hydropower that they may not already know.   Gilbert Bennett  06:48 So, if we look at the provinces of Canada with the highest installed base hydropower, they have facilities that were built with large scale capacity and large-scale storage, and they were built in the 60s and 70s. And they still operate reliably today. So, we look back to sort of the major construction that happened in the Canadian hydropower sector. Several decades ago, those long-term reliable assets are now producing really low cost energy, a lot of financing has been addressed from those facilities, and they have low operating costs, the cost of maintaining those facilities is, is a lot lower than the cost of building new ones today. So those those legacy assets are really important contributors to the low rates, we see in the, what I'll call the hydro dependent jurisdictions.   Dan Seguin  07:37 Very insightful. Thanks, Gilbert. Now, I know water power, Canada has commissioned some research projects. Can you maybe talk about some of those, and what makes them important to your sector and your goals?   Gilbert Bennett  07:53 So those studies, and there were four of them that were completed through last year with important financial support from Natural Resources Canada, and fortunately, they address some important topics to discuss hydropower in general. So, the first one deals with this question that we just talked about, what's the role that hydropower facilities play in ensuring reliable service for customers. So now we're getting into some technical points, inertia load, following regulation, frequency and voltage control. So those are things that customers don't think about and don't have to worry about, because they're really important questions or system operators, the people who manage and operate electricity grids. So, it's important for policymakers who are drafting the rules through the electricity sector to understand that these capabilities are essential to delivering reliable service. And in the absence of fossil generation, delivering those capabilities to a large extent is going to fall to the hydro fleet. It's important to understand the services that are uniquely provided by hydro facilities, some of the variable renewables don't have these capabilities. And the services that are provided by the hydro fleet are going to be much more important in the future as we retire the fossil fuel fleet across Canada. So that's, that's the first one. The second study looked at the potential for pumped storage hydro in Canada. And that's a topic that we haven't talked about a lot. It's a mature technology that's used in many places in the world. But with our conventional hydropower fleet here in Canada, we haven't had to worry about too much, but it is becoming an issue as a way to store energy from variable renewables and make it available when needed factor projects under consideration in Ontario. Today, there are two major projects in Ontario, one led by OPG and Northland power, and the TC energy's project in Georgian Bay is another one that probably would be familiar to listeners in Ontario for sure. There are also projects in Alberta. They're looking at that technology. So potential for pump storage as a large-scale storage opportunity to firm up variable renewables. It's an important topic elsewhere in the world. And it's one that we thought would be useful to highlight attention here in Canada. Third study looks at the potential for updating our existing facilities to increase the output of those facilities. So, we've identified 1000s of megawatts of potential that can be realized by replacing the existing turbines and generators and existing plants. So, the point here is that we're using existing dams, reservoirs and structures, while updating the technology inside the plant. So that's a cost-effective way to increase the efficiency of the plant or to increase capacity on the grid. And then finally, the last report looks at the cost of energy from previous generation sources. And we introduced the point here that variable renewables are inexpensive energy sources, but there are additional costs that will be incurred in the electricity systems making them dispatchable and available. And those are, those are features that are built into hydro generation. So, we want to raise the point here that the grid services that I talked about a second ago, need to be factored in when we're comparing various generation sources. So these points are really important for policymakers to understand, well, they're drafting the rules for the industry, and ultimately, for the services that our customers are gonna be relying on. Lots and lots of detail there. And if anybody's interested in taking a look at those reports, are all posted on our website at waterpowercanada.ca.   Dan Seguin  11:28 Okay, I really like this next question here. What are some projects and innovations that you're seeing from your members that you feel may usher in a new era for waterpower?   Gilbert Bennett  11:42 I think we look back at our aspirational goal in Canada to be net zero by 2050. So, talk about that on a fairly regular basis. Various experts have said that we'll need to double our electricity supply to achieve that goal. So just think about that for a second 25 or 30 years, we're going to rebuild the industry that's taken 125 years to build the infrastructure Canada that we have today. So, you know, that's a daunting challenge. And I think it'd be the first sign of the scale of that effort is probably from Hydro Quebec, where they've indicated that they plan to spend somewhere between 155 and $185 billion dollars on their electricity system between now and 2035, in order to set the stage and Quebec to be net zero by 2050. That level of investment, that scale of development of their electricity system, I think is a huge one. And it's one that if we're going to achieve our or aspirational goal is going to be replicated in multiple jurisdictions when we look at significant investments required to set the stage to electrify our economy. So that in itself is a, you know, is a hugely important error for I see the electricity sector in general, feel comfortable saying that water power is going to be an important piece of that.   Dan Seguin  13:07 Now, if memory serves me right, your organization released a collection of success stories of partnerships between utilities, energy companies, indigenous businesses, and organizations affiliated with First Nations. Gilbert, what can you tell us about the path forward? And its intersection is clean energy and reconciliation?   Gilbert Bennett  13:34 Right. So that report, branding indigenous businesses is also on our website. And it's a collection of case studies from members from our member companies that provide concrete examples of how WaterPower Canada member companies are working with indigenous businesses, First Nations, both as partners and owners and developers of projects. So, I think in the context of reconciliation, it should be fairly clear that projects and activities that happen on traditional land should benefit people who you know, who own that land. And here we have some specific examples of how things can be done and are being done to benefit indigenous communities and businesses. So, it's the way we need to move forward with development. It's an opportunity to work together, it's an opportunity to jointly understand issues, opportunities, challenges with projects, and to really come to a common understanding of how to do business together, both between, you know, our member companies and indigenous communities, important step forward. And I think the way things are going to be done in the future.   Dan Seguin  14:43 Okay, moving on to some challenges. It seems that the International Energy Agency expects hydropower generation to increase 50% by 2040. Is the hydropower sector, like many, having difficulty attracting new talent? What are the ways your sector is working to entice youth to consider hydroelectricity to keep up with the growing demand?   Gilbert Bennett  15:14 So, this is a huge challenge for not just our industry, but the Canadian economy in general, we have a retiring workforce, as our population ages. And we're not replacing people across multiple sectors in our economy. Certainly, an issue in the trades for construction and operations. So, a concern in engineering is a concern in most professions, that we're not replacing our workforce. And for our industry, we have a couple of associations that are really focused on this question. So, shout out for electricity, Human Resources, Canada here, they are playing a key role in highlighting opportunities, and reasons why people who are entering the workforce, you know, should look at a career in our sector. It's a common theme from trade unions to say, look, you know, here are these unionized positions, and the trades and the construction trades. And then the operating trades are high paying jobs, they have great working conditions. And they're a great way to build people's career. And it's probably something that we haven't talked about for a long time. These are ways to highlight opportunities in the industry, apprentice programs on projects are another way to highlight opportunities to get people entering the workforce. And then finally, you can link back to our discussion on indigenous communities where training, education, employment opportunities associated with projects are available for residents in nearby communities. But that's as most project developers today would look at that as a key way to both build workforce, and to build economic capability in the, in the communities where they're doing work. It's a big challenge. And we certainly have to, you know, find ways to get people into the trains to get things done. We're going to be talking about this one a lot.   Dan Seguin  17:04 Now, I'm curious to find out what makes our hydropower unique, isn't our production generation water rich reserves, or our cold climate that sets Canada's hydropower apart from other countries?   Gilbert Bennett  17:20 So, first of all, we look at the resource that we have, we have 7% of the world's renewable freshwater. So, 7% of the water that falls on the face of the planet, lands in Canada, and we have 5% of the world's population. So those were important to have the raw resources in the first place. So that certainly we have that in spades, but also the large landmass, we have favorable topography for hydropower sites, so the right to the terrain and most of Canada is favorable to hydropower development. We're a large country with a small population, but lots of water. So, we have a great resource. And I think that that's probably the key reason why we've, you know, got to where we are.   Dan Seguin  18:08 Okay, that's good, Gilbert. Now, do you expect hydropower to remain Canada's largest source of reliable, renewable power for the foreseeable future? What is something you want the government to know right now about how investing in hydroelectricity can help it achieve its netzero goals?   Gilbert Bennett  18:32 Okay, so the first, the first most important point is that the attributes of your hydropower fleet, the technical capabilities are really important in continuing to ensure that electricity, services for customers are reliable, cost effective and renewable. Now, our future is going to be all in with every non emitting and renewable option. So hydro, wind, solar, nuclear, hydrogen, all of these alternatives to fossil fuels, and others are going to be critical for us to achieve our net zero, or near zero aspiration. Hydro today is the backbone of our fleet. It has important services, and it's important to glue the rest of the system together. So that's probably the most important point and then we would say that development of hydropower facilities are long term investments, they have long term development cycles. So we need to be able to find ways to move forward with project approvals with upgrades with expansions you know that deliver low cost service to customers. Now we also recommend with note that our generator members are either major utilities or their producers themselves. So, getting the maximum value from our assets is going to be really important as well and the industry is going to continue to look at existing assets to see how we can get more out of those. So that may be increasing the capacity of sites using, you know, improving efficiency, being strategic about where you know where projects get built. And then finally understanding where hydro fits compared to other technologies. And there's a given that there will be opportunities for those other technologies to play important roles in this electricity system as well. When we look at sort of doubling the electricity system, there's going to be a lot of investment all around. And I think what we would say is that, you know, back to the fundamental point, hydropower is the backbone of the generating fleet in Canada. And it provides, you know, key services that are going to be needed now, well into the future.   Dan Seguin  20:35 Finally, Gilbert, we always end our interviews with some rapid-fire questions. We've got some new ones for you. Are you ready?   Gilbert Bennett  20:44 Let's go. Okay.   Dan Seguin  20:46 What are you reading right now?   Gilbert Bennett  20:48 Nothing on the bookshelf today. So, I will say the last binge read I had was on vacation last summer, and it would have been one of Tom Clancy novels.   Dan Seguin  20:57 Okay, good. Now, Gilbert, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?   Gilbert Bennett  21:04 I don't. We don't have one. This one is a standing family joke. The name of the boat would be Ylime, which is my daughter Emily's name spelled backwards. That's a standing joke for a while with the family.   Dan Seguin  21:18 Here's another question, Gilbert. Who is someone that you truly admire?   Gilbert Bennett  21:23 All right, so let's look back in history to someone who dealt with challenges on a similar scale to what we're talking about now. And I think I'd have to look to maybe someone like General Leslie Groves, from the Manhattan Project. So those of you have seen Oppenheimer would have a pretty clear handle about how he got things moving to that project.   Dan Seguin  21:46 Okay, moving on here. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Gilbert Bennett  21:52 Oh wow. Okay, so I'm an electrical engineer. So, some real things are more like magic to a lot of people. I would say for me, 15 years of effort of the Muskrat Falls project in Labrador, close to the breaker to put the first unit online, looks like magic after all that effort.   Dan Seguin  22:11 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Gilbert Bennett  22:18 Oh, well, I would say switching from a large office setting to a virtual team. And you know, of course, during my time on the Muskrat Project, we had, you know, 300 people on our team, and you're interacting with them on a daily basis. And now you go to a virtual team, and you're doing pretty well, everything like we're doing here today remotely. That was a major adjustment for me.   Dan Seguin  22:40 Okay. Now, we've all been watching a little more TV, a little more Netflix. What is your favorite show? Or series?   Gilbert Bennett  22:49 Oh, I just got through the last season of Slow Horses on Apple TV. So Misfits, that and MI five, who find a way to get things done. It was a pretty, pretty enjoyable series for me.   Dan Seguin  23:03 Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now?   Gilbert Bennett  23:08 Oh, wow. I would say in a nutshell, everything. Sort of the scope, the scale, the challenges, the opportunities that we've talked about, I think are all are all exciting, and helping to, you know, find a way to retool our, our entire society so that it runs on renewables, I think is a huge is a huge challenge. And it was definitely pretty exciting.   Dan Seguin  23:30 Well, Gilbert, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the think energy podcast. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?   Gilbert Bennett  23:42 Oh, two ways. Visit our website waterpowercanada.ca. And we're on LinkedIn as well. So follow the association. And keep up with what's going on in the industry.   Dan Seguin  23:54 Again, Gilbert, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.,   Gilbert Bennett  23:59 Oh this was great. It was great to be with you Daniel. Thanks so much.   Dan Seguin  24:06 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

The Boreal Forest is the worlds LARGEST forested biome! Understanding the inner workings of such a callosal giant can be overwhelming. Now add climate change to the mix. What does the future hold? Luckily, an enormous team of researchers have banded together to create this incredible book that details what we need to do to keep the Boreal Forest healthy, and thriving, for the foreseeable future. Did I mention this incredible resource is completely FREE? See show notes for that link. ResourcesBoreal Forests in the Face of Climate Change: Sustainable Management (Volume 74)SponsorsWest FraserGreenLink Forestry Inc.Quotes07.46 - 07.54: “When I look at the current situation, I feel like the major challenge of humanity right now is climate change.”TakeawaysFor the love of boreal forests (04.39)Sylvie is an Emeritus Research Scientist with the Canadian Forest Service at Natural Resources Canada, Miguel is the Professor of Forest Ecology and Guillaume is the Professor of Aquatic Ecology at the University of Quebec. The book they created is written to draw attention to the boreal forest, which represents 25% of the forest cover in the world. Inclusive writing (14.40)Sylvie mentions that between 60 and 170 authors from different fields - forestry, ecology and environmental science - came together to create this book. Miguel was surprised by the support received for the book. Healthy and resilient forests under climate change (21.33)Miguel highlights that it is essential to maintain a balance between natural and managed landscapes in order to maintain a healthy ecosystem. Sylvie points out that taking a deterministic approach to forestry does not work in the face of a constantly changing natural world. Ecosystem management on the disturbance regime (28.42)Sylvie explains that fire creates diversity at the landscape level which harvesting doesn't allow. By understanding the natural disturbance regime of the forest, they can better manage the managed forest. The current disturbances are related to temperature fluctuations from climate change, which impact the health and resilience of forests.Climate change is here (36.19)Miguel urges listeners to note how frequent climate change impacts have become, and provides examples from different regions that have had hurricanes and storms. Guillaume notes that lakes in some northern countries are becoming browner. Managing forests for the future (50.55)Sylvie shares some tactical decisions made for management planning, including diversifying seed sources and strategic planning of annual allowable count. Miguel adds that they want to preserve forests applying ecosystem management and diversity plantation to increase productivity and tap into their carbon sequestration potential. Human - forest interactions (59.10)Miguel says human-forest interactions will be the basis of forest management in the future, to achieve sustainability in the economy, ecology and society. He touches upon the spiritual aspect of Indigenous forest interaction and how Indigenous communities value preserving their ecosystems. Love is the greatest force (1.11.51)Miguel believes that people must be more flexible in their approaches in the light of the new information on global climate change. Their book speaks to this commonality across the globe, and speaks to cooperation amongst scientists everywhere to improve solutions.

The Hemlock Wooly Adelgid is killing hemlock trees in Mainland NS. The invasive pest has no predators here. Until now! Dr Lucas Roscoe with Natural Resources Canada explains how they're releasing Laricobius beetles from BC into trees infected with HWA because the beetles feed on HWA. And on the phone-in: Nathaniel Pearre answers questions on EVs.

More and more we seek brands and products to help us conserve energy, save money, and make a positive impact on the planet. Every purchase is powerful. ENERGY STAR Canada's Director of Program Support and Modernization, Burt James, joins episode 123 of thinkenergy to chat ways we can harness that power. From energy-efficient products to how ENERGY STAR programs help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, save electricity, and even improve the quality of our lives. Listen to the conversation today.   Related links   ENERGY STAR Canada: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/energy-efficiency/energy-star-canada/18953   ENERGY STAR Canada on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/energy-star-canada/  ENERGY STAR Canada on X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/ENERGYSTAR_CAN  ENERGY STAR Canada on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ENERGYSTARCanada/ To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod ---- Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Did you know that your wallet can help you reduce your energy footprint? Energy efficient products have become powerful tools and conservation and energy reduction efforts as people around the world become more aware of the impact their purchasing choices have on the environment. Consumers increasingly want electronic devices and appliances that use less energy to help save money on their energy bills, create a more sustainable future for people and the planet and are less wasteful and subsequently reduce greenhouse gas emissions. More and more people want to do business with brands that are just as concerned about these things as they are and they're using their wallet to send that message. More than ever, we have come to realize the power our wallets hold, we are dictating what is manufactured and produced because of how we think about and use energy. Over the last few decades and perhaps this last decade in particular, more of us are concerned about our own impact and contribution towards climate change. Enter ENERGY STAR Canada, a voluntary partnership between the Government of Canada and industry to make high efficiency products readily available and visible to Canadians. Providing simple, credible and unbiased information so consumers like us can make well informed decisions in the US alone ENERGY STAR and its partners have reduced greenhouse gas emissions by 4 billion metric tons since 1992. And save the equivalent of 5 trillion kilowatt hours of electricity. You likely know and recognize and have Energy Star products in your home already. Its logo has become a trusted symbol, particularly in the appliances space, but there's a lot more that they do then you may not be aware of. So here's today's big question. In what ways can we harness the power of our wallets to make a positive difference for our planet and what other opportunities exist through programs like ENERGY STAR to lessen our impact on the environment, and even human health? Joining us today is Bert James. He's the Director of Product Support and modernization at ENERGY STAR from the Office of Energy Efficiency. Hey, Bert, welcome to the podcast.   Bert James  03:10 Pleasure to be here.   Dan Seguin  03:11 Now. Maybe you can start by telling us how the ENERGY STAR brand came to be and why it's become such a trusted symbol.   Bert James  03:21 Thanks for the question, Dan. The Energy Star program was actually started in the early 1990s by the US Environmental Protection Agency, but was first brought to Canada in 2001. In an international partnership and our can through the Office of Energy Efficiency are the stewards of the program in Canada. It's a voluntary partnership between the Government of Canada and program participants to make high efficiency products, homes and buildings available and visible to consumers and businesses. The product program is probably the one that people are most familiar with. And it was the first member of the ENERGY STAR candidate family. There are more than 80 types of products available and 1000s and 1000s of products, we have over 1000 program participants in the product space alone. Later on in 2005. We brought in the ENERGY STAR for new homes program in 2017. ENERGY STAR for industry in 2018, Energy Star certification became available for commercial and institutional buildings. And how did it become such a trusted symbol, I think through consistent performance more than anything else, it's recognized by a strong majority, like more than 80% of Canadians know what that little blue star means whenever they see it. It's government backed, which I think gives it some credibility or at least I'd like to think so there are transparent and really strict efficiency specifications as well which makes the program reliable and the products themselves are subject to post market verification in that, you know, it's not just about what you say your product will do, but it's actually about how your product performs. So there are proven savings. The market is quite saturated I think with Energy Star products. In terms of a price comparison, there's no difference in Most product categories and by purchasing one provided that it fits your design style, you know, you're going to save money if you purchase an energy star product.   Dan Seguin  05:08 That's very cool. Now, how does your rating system and our guide fit into this equation?   Bert James  05:15 So the inner guide rating system does kind of dovetail with ENERGY STAR, but they are separate pieces. In the world of residential homes. There is an EnerGuide rating system that compares individual homes from an energy performance perspective against other homes and then issues a rating ENERGY STAR for new homes, by contrast, is actually a reflection of the energy performance as it relates to the building code. In the world of appliances. Energy Star has a certain technical specification or and I guess, to elaborate a little further on that each product must have a certain energy performance, whereas EnerGuide is more just a measure of that energy performance. It's not a standard per se. It's just a reading.   Dan Seguin  05:59 Thanks for the clarification. Okay, but we're seeing a trend where the residential real estate industry is moving towards multi tenant construction. In Canada, two out of three homes built today aren't multifamily. And in Ontario alone, nearly 700,000 households live in condos. Now, does this present a challenge or an opportunity for the Energy Star program?   Bert James  06:28 Well, I like to see everything as an opportunity then. So I would definitely put this into that category. I think the biggest challenge, if I may, is to kind of work within this situation where we find ourselves where we need to build more homes. I think there is a shortage of housing on the market. When we choose to build homes, we would like them to be as efficient as possible. And that's where ENERGY STAR can come in. From a certification standpoint. Many people live in multifamily homes now, or multi unit residential buildings or condo buildings. And of course, we encourage them all to use Energy Star products within their homes. But more broadly for whole buildings. We do have an Energy Star certification program for multifamily high rises in Ontario. It's a certification program for new construction that recognizes buildings that are at least 15% more efficient than those built to the provincial energy code and meet some other program requirements. But as we focus a lot on housing supply in this country, it is sometimes hard to talk about efficiency whenever we just need to get homes built. And so we you know, we see it as a challenge in terms of keeping energy efficiency in the spotlight whenever these homes get built, and also an excellent opportunity to promote the work that we do here within OEE.   Dan Seguin  07:46 Okay, the ENERGY STAR is mostly known for residential homes and appliances. But you're also in the industrial and commercial space. What programs exist to help these sectors reduce greenhouse gas emissions?   Bert James  08:02 This is a question where my answer might be long, I'm going to try and keep it as concise as I can. So there are a number of initiatives in both the commercial and industrial space. And I'll start with the commercial space energy star that has a tool called Portfolio Manager, which is a benchmarking tool. It's been with us this is actually the 10th anniversary this year is the 10th anniversary of the use of portfolio manager. And what Portfolio Manager allows you to do is measure your buildings performance as compared to other buildings that are in a similar class, it spits out a score and that score allows you to compare how your building will perform overall, in terms of reducing greenhouse gas emissions, a building that has a higher score consumes less energy and is more efficient in terms of keeping the heat in and so through the use of a portfolio manager a building owner can actually evaluate how their building performs as they construct it. But also if they were to do some retrofits to see how much better the building actually performs itself in the world of commercial residential or condo buildings. Portfolio Manager is obviously another tool that people could use but we also do have this pilot program in Ontario that does recognize buildings that are more energy efficient. So in the world of industrial players ENERGY STAR has two components. There is an energy star challenge and then a certification process. The challenge for industrial facilities is to reduce their energy consumption by 10%. Within five years, if you achieve this goal, you receive ENERGY STAR recognition and you can display the ENERGY STAR challenge for industry logo while 10% might not seem like a big achievement over the course of five years, the amount of electricity that some of the these facilities consumed is really quite substantial and a 10% drop in energy use can lead to some significant changes to the bottom line for these facilities. From a certification perspective, Natural Resources Canada recognizes the most energy efficient Canadian facilities with ENERGY STAR for industry certification. So industrial facilities located in Canada can earn the certification and display the energy star symbol. And it is done through an energy performance indicator that allows you to benchmark your facility's performance against those across Canada and the United States, it generates a score and those with the highest scores are eligible for certification.   Dan Seguin  10:28 Okay, what makes ENERGY STAR certified buildings unique?   Bert James  10:34 So ENERGY STAR certified buildings are, as I mentioned, in the residential space, the multi unit buildings they perform at least 15% better than the standard as described in the provincial energy code and ENERGY STAR certified buildings are just they are of higher energy performance. And you can feel it whenever you're in some of these buildings. And you can definitely see it through the control systems that are in place to manage energy within them. There are really some fantastic innovations happening in the building space with respect to heat and energy recovery. And these all help to improve the energy performance and ultimately improve the score through Portfolio Manager and that's what sets them apart is that they are higher performing buildings. You know, here in Ottawa, there are a couple of buildings that have recently been announced as net zero buildings whenever they are finally going to be built. That is the highest standard that we are looking at right now. But overall, you know, cut and dried, the difference between the ENERGY STAR certified building and one that is not ENERGY STAR certified is its energy performance.   Dan Seguin  11:34 Burt, are you able to unpack for listeners, what is the process to being certified?   Bert James  11:41 To be eligible for Energy Star certification, a building must earn a certain score through the ENERGY STAR Portfolio Manager access to Portfolio Manager is free. And I want to be clear that it does not require an engineering degree in order to operate it, it is something that a building manager can come in and use if it receives a certain score of 75. That means that it's operating better than at least 75% of similar buildings nationwide. So the entire process is done within the portfolio manager tool. Once you register for an account, you benchmark your building by using metered energy data. It's asking, you know, building operators for the data that they already have, which can be entered into the tool manually, or in some cases that can actually be automatically uploaded into the tool. Once you obtain your score. If it is 75 or higher, then you can submit an online certification application, have it verified by a licensed professional and then submit it to Natural Resources Canada, and then the last step for us is just to review that application. And if it is certified, the building receives an ENERGY STAR deckle to display on the building and also gets listed on in NRcan's online registry.   Dan Seguin  12:50 Now I'm curious about your signature program, the Canada Greener Homes Grant. What can you tell us about it, and how retrofit factors into your work?   Bert James  13:02 So the Canada Greener Homes Grant was launched in 2021. And I think in government time, that still makes it a relatively new program. It is obviously a program to incentivize home energy retrofits in the residential space across Canada. You know, the program itself was designed to improve the energy performance of home so there is a focus on improving the building envelope and also some of the equipment that exists within the home. When I say building envelope, I don't just mean you know the walls I also mean the windows and doors. And as it relates to energy star to be eligible for one of the grants, consumers or homeowners must install ENERGY STAR certified products into those spaces. There's also opportunities to add insulation to swap out furnaces for heat pumps and there are other aspects. So the retrofitting of homes is a very important factor for us as we work towards, you know, a net zero economy by 2050. The building sector accounts for a significant percentage of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions primarily related to space and water heating and retrofitting those buildings is an essential component of how we get to net zero energy star certainly plays a role in in supporting homeowners by putting high performing products in and ultimately can help us down the road of consuming less energy and reducing greenhouse gas emissions in cases where if you are heating with a natural gas furnace, having high efficiency Windows keeps that he didn't and you will burn less gas overall and reduce your emissions associated with it.   Dan Seguin  14:40 Bert, more and more municipalities and communities are looking for ways to reduce costs and greenhouse gas emissions. What is the ENERGY STAR Portfolio Manager and who is the target audience?   Bert James  14:55 So the Portfolio Manager is a free tool you know, it's run by the United States Ba, they are the ones that the custodians of the tool can have certainly modified the tool, you know, for our own context, the target audience for Portfolio Manager are building operators. And so they are the people who have access to the water consumption, the energy consumption, waste generation, all of those things come into the portfolio manager tool, and we, you know, we target our work towards, towards the building operators and the building managers to get their information into it, it is really quite something but we have more than 40% of all commercial space across Canada is already found in the portfolio manager tool, and that date that is increasing all the time. And we have some good news stories from provinces, municipalities who are actually mandating the use of the tool in order to demonstrate energy performance in their jurisdictions. So like I said, the tool itself is free, it is quite easy to use, and but it is targeted towards the people who actually have access to that information about how a building currently performs and how it operates.   Dan Seguin  16:07 That's great, Bert. Now how does the federal budgets focus on energy and decarbonisation, the economy affects your work?   Bert James  16:09 Well, it is my work in many ways. I mean, energy efficiency is a central component of how we get to net zero by 2050. I like to think that there are three pillars to this : decarbonisation, which is the actual, you know, elimination of fossil fuel build burning devices. There is electrification, which is the conversion of certain things to electricity from a fossil fuel device, but then there's also energy efficiency. And so the less energy that we can use in order to operate, you know, a building an industrial facility or a product to the easier it is to to electrify that, and ultimately here in the Office of Energy Efficiency, that's, that's our goal, we want people to use high performing devices, we have many success stories around this, you know, we the efficiency of a refrigerator built in 2023 is, you know, many multiples ahead of of a refrigerator built, you know, 25 or 30 years ago. Similarly, incandescent light bulbs are actually getting harder and harder to find, and at some point in time, they will likely be regulated out of existence. So you know, the energy is the lifeblood of our economy, how we use that energy and the efficiency with which we use that energy is, I think, going to be a major indicator of our success as we move towards a full decarbonisation of the economy and reducing our emissions from coast to coast.   Dan Seguin  17:47 Now has the main social driver to buy Energy STAR shifted from energy saving, to, let's say, planet saving?   Bert James  17:56 That's a very good question. And I would say, our focus is still on saving energy, all energy has a cost. And if we can reduce the amount of energy that we consume, then ultimately we are going to save some money along the way. In Canada, we have a very clean electricity generation grid. And so but there are certain jurisdictions where even within this country where we still burn fossil fuels in order to generate electricity, if we can consume less energy, we will burn less fossil fuels in those jurisdictions. But I would say that the focus for the Energy Star program remains on remaining within energy performance and saving money and through the savings of energy, ultimately, are we going to be saving the planet along the way, I'd like to think that we are contributing positively in that way. But for us here, the focus has always been on just increasing the efficiency of the products that we are responsible for and helping Canadians make smart decisions with respect to where they live, work and play.   Dan Seguin  19:03 Got a follow up question for you, Bert. What trends are you seeing and what are you learning from consumers through their purchasing decisions?   Bert James  19:12 We are seeing I mean, I think greener homes are an excellent example. To go back to that question. We have seen nearly a doubling of program participation in energy star as a result of the incentives that are available through the greener homes grant. So people speak with their wallet sometimes, and by putting Energy Star products into greener homes, we've seen a significant uptick in the purchasing of fenestration products or windows and doors within the ENERGY STAR space. You know, we are are very proud of what we've done in the lighting space in particular, because we you know, ENERGY STAR lighting at one point in time was it was LED lighting and I think before that it might have there might have been some other model But we have largely moved away from incandescent lighting entirely. So, you know, we see people who are interested in purchasing a product, the concern that we tend to hear from Canadians is around cost differential. So they might not want to purchase a product, even if it's going to save them energy if it costs more money. And this is where I really love the Energy Star program. Because if you're buying a ceiling fan, there's no difference in cost between an ENERGY STAR ceiling fan and another ceiling fan. And this is the same thing across products like televisions, computer monitors. And so people don't need much of a push in order to buy a more efficient product. The concern that they have is obviously if there is a cost differential, this becomes a bit more of a pressing concern whenever we start to talk about housing, because obviously we want people to buy high performance housing. But there's a limit to how much more people are going to be willing to pay for a high performing house as compared to one that might not be an ENERGY STAR certified new home.   Dan Seguin  21:04 Okay, Burt, what role does ENERGY STAR have in achieving Canada's net zero emissions by 2050?   Bert James  21:15 Well, I can give you the most recent numbers that I have in 2022. Alone, ENERGY STAR certified products saved enough energy to power over 320,000 homes for a year or the equivalent of removing 680,000 cars from the road. Improving energy efficiency contributes firsthand to reducing greenhouse gas emissions and is an important part of Canada's national approach to addressing climate change. The program supports Canadians in reducing energy consumption and improves efficiency across multiple sectors of the economy. The program assumes a multi pronged approach to advancing these environmental objectives from manufacturing, distribution and purchasing, obviously, as we have discussed residential housing both single family homes and multi unit homes promoting high efficiency and high efficiency performance in the commercial and institutional buildings and challenging industry to push efficiency even further. So I think ENERGY STAR absolutely has a role to play. It is an aspirational standard. But you know, through program participation, and through the work that we do with our various stakeholder groups, we have the power to leverage that brand to influence people to make good purchasing decisions that will ultimately lead them to, you know, reduce their energy consumption, reduce their greenhouse gas emissions, and and hopefully get us towards net zero by 2050.   Dan Seguin  22:37 Now, let's move on from role to goals. What are some of your own internal goals with respect to net zero?   Bert James  22:47 Well, you know, here in the Office of Energy Efficiency, Net Zero is sort of our shining star, it's the one that we're trying to work towards, we continue to push standards higher and hire on the regulatory side of things. To make products more and more efficient. Obviously, we can't push too far too fast. Because sometimes the products just don't exist to have an energy performance that we know where they need to be. And so we are constantly seeking opportunities to identify product types to improve the standards overall. I know we work in close and close contact with the US EPA who are developing new standards for ENERGY STAR for new products that are coming ahead. And so what we want to do is, is just, we want to do everything that we can to make sure that energy efficiency stays front of mind as we are making purchasing purchasing decisions that we're providing information to people about the importance of of energy efficiency, and really supporting what is a robust labor market for energy efficiency as well, you know, the greener homes, you know, to go back to that has really helped to incentivize the retrofit market with a focus on energy efficiency, I think we we should be very proud of jobs that are created the economic activity that gets created out of that because the environment and the economy are not distinct things, more and more they are becoming one of the same in terms of you know, addressing environmental challenges are is an excellent economic opportunity. And I think ENERGY STAR has a role to play in that space.   Dan Seguin  24:25 Okay, time for a little bragging bird. What are some of Energy STARS or the office of Energy's efficiencies greatest accomplishments?   Bert James  24:35 Well, I'll start with ENERGY STAR. Certainly, there are a couple of things that I wanted to point out too. One is that we will be sunsetting the ENERGY STAR requirements for most lighting products. This is to pat ourselves on the back Mission Accomplished story we brought in the ENERGY STAR standard, which was led lights and that standard has what was originally aspirational has now become the industry standard. And we are going to be decommissioning the ENERGY STAR standard because most products are built to it anyways, the overwhelming majority of lighting products that you find meet that standard. And so that's a very good news story for us. Similarly, the EPA has indicated that we will be decommissioning standards related to the performance of fossil fuel devices and burning devices such as furnaces or hot water heaters, because the technology for electric electricity or electric heating and cooling as well as electric water heating have advanced to a point where, you know, our focus is going to become improving that energy performance and, and getting away from consideration around fossil fuels in the world of commercial buildings. Another great story for energy portfolio managers, as I mentioned, is that approximately 45% of commercial buildings by floor space are benchmarked through this through the Portfolio Manager tool, you know, the more that we can get into Portfolio Manager, it's a bit of a game, right? So for building operators, you know, whether you are operating a school or a hospital, you know, a medical clinic, you can compare your facilities, energy performance against other facilities. And the more that we can put into Portfolio Manager, the better we understand the performance of our building stock and look at ways to that we can ultimately improve if I look at the Office of Energy Efficiency, certainly, you know, we've launched a number of very successful programs over the course of the years greener Homes has issued hundreds of millions of dollars worth of grants already, but something that I would like to to advocate for is that, you know, OEE also plays a key role of as regulator, so we have saved a lot of energy, and we've phased out some poor performing products such as light bulbs, but we use our regulatory role to support building operators to support industry to support manufacturers, and we have a couple of very well known products in enter guide, both the inner guide that shows up on your appliances and enter guide for houses. These are very well known and web and highly recognized programs. And nothing beats brand recognition whenever it comes to programs such as this.   Dan Seguin  27:13 Lastly, Burt, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?   Bert James  27:21 Okay, I guess I'm ready as ready as I'll ever be. Yes.   Dan Seguin  27:25 So what are you reading right now?   Bert James  27:28 So I have to confess, Dan, that outside of work, I'm not a big reader. I tend to listen to podcasts. I'm an auditory learner. And so I love the podcast medium, what I'm listening to on podcasts right now, and a couple of things. I love current affairs. And so I listened to Current Affairs podcast quite a bit. Most recently, I, you know, kind of dived into a couple of different topics related to the use of artificial intelligence. And one that is, you know, I would say more of a guilty pleasure than anything else, which is just listening to interminable amounts of sports podcasts. So I, so I read all day, every day for work. And whenever I get to the end of my work day, I tend to turn that skill in my brain off and I tend to listen more than read.   Dan Seguin  28:17 What would you name your boat if you had one? Or maybe you do have one?   Bert James  28:21 I do have a boat. It is a canoe and the canoe's name is Worth My While.   Dan Seguin  28:29 Who is someone that you truly admire, Bert?   Bert James  28:32 Well, the first person that comes to mind is my mother. Of course, I am a mama's boy, if you can't tell from that statement. My mother is 80 years old, and could write a book on how to fit 25 hours into your day. She is quite incredible. You know, Dan, just to just take a step back, I work with the smartest group of people I've ever known right now. And I look around me and, you know, not just within the management community that I'm part of, but people up and down throughout this organization, I really admire their commitment to the organization, their commitment to the work that they do, and the dedication that they show. So I feel very fortunate to be a public servant, and particularly in the role that I'm in right now just to be surrounded by experts in their fields, both technical experts, policy experts and just leaders in the truest sense of the word. And those are the so if I had to say pick anyone to admire would probably be them.   Dan Seguin  29:30 Now, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Bert James  29:35 Well, I actually had - and you can tell me after the fact that this is something that I am not allowed to talk about on the podcast - but I had something truly amazing happen to me about a week and a half ago. I was in Algonquin Park, and I was fishing and I ended up catching a fish and he decided that we were going to have it for lunch. And so in the process of cleaning a fish, I opened it up and a live baby snapping turtle fell out of its belly. And it was the most amazing circumstance that I think I've ever been part of. And if that's not a podcast, suitable material, I've got lots of other experiences. But I cannot get over how magical it was that I happened to be on that beach at that time and to liberate it. So we named the turtle Lucky. And we put the turtle into a safe space for a little while, then we went back and checked on him for a day or so. And then the turtle had disappeared and had gone off. We assumed greener pastures, but that is the closest thing to magic that I have ever experienced. You know, but if that's not a podcast, suitable material, I've got another example for you.   Dan Seguin  30:49 Okay, now, as a result of the pandemic, many of us are guilty of watching a lot more Netflix and TV. What is your favorite movie or show?   Bert James  31:01 So similar to my answer about what I am reading, I don't tend to watch a lot. I spend my day in front of screens and a good portion of my day on camera leading meetings, et cetera. The most recent Netflix show that I really got into was Ozark which was, which was a pretty, you know, dark and brooding show at times. But I found it quite compelling in terms of television. I tend to stick to sporting events, most of the time. That's where my interest lies. It's not that I don't enjoy television. It's just that for some reason, sitting in front of yet another screen, whenever I've spent a good portion of my day in front of screens, doesn't really resonate with me.   Dan Seguin  31:48 Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now, Bert?   Bert James  31:53 Well, I think there is an increasing amount of media attention being paid to energy efficiency, you know, not just from a technological perspective, because there's quite a bit of information in the news right now about heat pumps and the possibilities that heat pumps bring to reducing greenhouse gas emissions. What I think is really exciting about it is that it feels somewhat like a coming of age moment in that the world of energy efficiency has been creating jobs for decades. But more and more, I think people are starting to recognize the potential that this sector has from a research and development angle, you know, the potential job opportunities that it creates, and both the public and social benefits that come with energy efficiency as well. And so there does seem to be a recognition of what energy efficiency can bring to the economy. And I love talking about my work, not just with you with anyone who will listen, and I really feel like we are at a turning point, just because of, you know, some of the environmental challenges. I think climate change being the challenge of our generation, and just looking at the enormous potential that exists within this sector to make life better, measurably better for Canadians and for people around the world.   Dan Seguin  33:18 If our listeners want to learn more about you or your organization, how can they connect?   Bert James  33:23 So if you're looking for information about ENERGY STAR, if you go search online for ENERGY STAR Canada will bring you directly to our web presence. If you're looking for more information about the Office of Energy Efficiency, I would counsel people to do the same. I don't often direct people to our website. It's not something that you know, is going to wow you but there is a great amount of information in there really quite relevant information. It can help people find incentive programs within their own jurisdictions. It can help people learn about the products that they want to buy or are considering buying. And it can help greatly from an education standpoint to help people learn about the benefits of energy efficiency in their home and at their office.   Dan Seguin  34:08 Well Burt, this is it, we've reached the end of another episode of the Think Energy podcasts. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.   Bert James  34:18 I did. I did. How should I say this? It's nice to be on the other side of the speaker. I listen to a lot of podcasts, yours included, and I love to inform myself in this way and whatever I can do to promote my work, which I am intensely proud of. I am happy to do so.   Dan Seguin  34:34 Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow  

How can we trust and apply the information, statistics, and data we find online? Once we have data we can trust, how do we use it to improve? In this episode, Anil Arora answers these and more. What You'll Learn: 1. The biggest challenges and opportunities of our day and how we can face them. 2. Why data literacy is vital to existing in (and making sense of) today's world. 3. How data can be used to improve ourselves and our organizations. 4. How AI can be applied responsibly. Who is Anil? Anil has worked with Statistics Canada for over 25 years, leading significant programs and transformations, and since 2016, he's served as Canada's Chief Statistician. He has also served in policy and regulatory roles in the government of Canada at Natural Resources Canada, as well as Health Canada. He has led substantial international initiatives working with the United Nations and the OECD. He serves on a number of boards and is very active in the community, supporting events and social causes. He received a Bachelor of Science from the University of Alberta and holds a Graduate Certificate in Public Sector Management and Governments from the University of Ottawa. Follow Anil Arora: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anil-arora-146278160/  More of Do Good to Lead Well: Website: https://craigdowden.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/craigdowden/ --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/craig-dowden/message

To address climate change, we must be united, working together towards a common goal. But differing perspectives have created a complex and polarized debate: renewable energy versus fossil fuel versus nuclear power. These discussions require an open mind and constructive dialogue to find solutions that work for all stakeholders. In thinkenergy episode 106, Dr. Monica Gattinger, li, unpacks how we can build a stronger way forward for Canada – together. Related links Positive Energy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/positive-energy  Positive Energy, Twitter: https://twitter.com/uOttawa_Energy  The Institute for Science, Society and Policy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/issp  The Institute for Science, Society and Policy, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/institute-for-science-society-and-policy/  Monica Gattinger, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/monica-gattinger-748a6a42/  Monica Gattinger, Twitter: https://twitter.com/MonicaGattinger To subscribe using Apple Podcasts   To subscribe using Spotify   To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube   Check out our cool pics on Instagram   More to Learn on Facebook   Keep up with the Tweets   ------------------------------ Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry,   Dan Seguin  00:28 Everyone, welcome back. Energy and climate change are important topics that have been increasingly discussed in recent years due to the significant impact they have on the environment, the economy, and society as a whole. The effects of climate change, such as rising sea levels, increased frequency of extreme weather events, and loss of biodiversity are widely recognized by the scientific community. However, there are different views on the best ways to address these issues, particularly in terms of energy policy, and the way we live, work, consume and travel. While some advocate for the transition to renewable energy sources, others still argue for the continued use of fossil fuels or the development of other technologies such as nuclear energy.   Dan Seguin  01:27 These differing perspectives have created a complex and often polarized debate. It is important to approach these discussions with an open mind, consider the evidence and engage in constructive dialogue to find common ground and solutions that work for all stakeholders. We've often heard that working together and respecting different opinions are essential for effective collaboration and innovation. For climate change, it's more important than ever, that we come together to work towards a common goal. So here is today's big question. When it comes to energy, and climate, are we able to consider diverse perspectives so we can identify blind spots, and challenge assumptions that will ultimately lead to a stronger way forward for Canada. Today, my special guest is Dr. Monica Gattinger. She's the director of the Institute for Science, Society and Policy. She's a full professor at the School of Political Studies and founder Chair of Positive Energy at the University of Ottawa. Monica, welcome to the show. Now, perhaps you can start by telling our listeners a bit about yourself, and how the positive energy program that you found it at the University of Ottawa came to be?   Monica Gattinger  02:55 Thanks, happy to. I'm a professor at the University of Ottawa. And I've been a student of energy, Dan it kind of pains me to say it, for but going on three decades now. And I guess about maybe 10 years ago or so around 2014-2015, you might remember at that time, there was a lot of contentiousness in the energy sector, particularly around pipeline development. And I think, you know, I felt a certain frustration that I'd go to energy conferences, and we'd all kind of get concerned about this. And, you know, I don't know, throw our hands up in the air, but what was happening, and then walk away, come back at the next conference to do the same thing. So the idea that I had was to create an initiative that would convene leaders who were concerned about these issues of public confidence and energy decision making, convening them together to try to identify what some of the key challenges are. And then I would undertake a research team, some solution focused, applied academic research to actually feed that process on an ongoing basis. So it's, you know, not just conferences, we walk away conferences, we walk away, it's, let's put in place a process to actually excuse me to actually get to some solution seeking on the challenges.   Dan Seguin  04:11 Okay, now, I have to ask you, because I love the name, given how polarizing energy has been for a number of years now, is the name meant to have a double meaning?   Monica Gattinger  04:20 Yes, it is. You are exactly right. That was you know, at the time when we created that name, that was precisely what we were trying to do, which is let's have some positive discussions about energy. I think the other thing I'd point to is, you know, for us, and it's always been the case that energy is all energy. So yes, at the time when we created positive energy, you know, what was in the news was big pipelines. But many of these issues and the challenges that we address with our work, apply to all energy sources, whether it's, you know, electricity, oil and gas at the upstream downstream, midstream sectors, so we really wanted to try to foster a pan Canadian approach on on the issues with energy as the core.   Dan Seguin  05:10 Monica, in one of your research reports, you acknowledge that division is eroding public trust and preventing progress. Why is that happening? Is it a lack of understanding around climate change and Canada's goals? Or is it more about the method or policies in place to get there?   Monica Gattinger  05:32 That's a super important question, Dan. And it's really at the heart of what we're aiming to do with positive energy. So if you look at where we're at now, on energy and climate, there's, you know, a tremendous global move towards net zero. And, of course, this is going to mean just a wholesale transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. So, you know, there are bound to be disagreements of division over how we go about doing that. And I think, you know, one of the crucial things about this energy transition in comparison to previous energy transitions, is that it's going to be largely policy driven, like, yes, there will be market developments, but policy is going to be playing such an important role. So to your question, you know, a lot of this is around the methods or the policies that we're going to be putting in place when it comes to energy transition. And I think our work really starts from the, you know, the very strong belief that if we don't have public confidence in government decision making over energy and climate, we're not going to be able to make ongoing forward progress on either energy or, or climate objectives. And for us, public confidence is, you know, the confidence of people, whether as citizens, as consumers as community members, but it's also the confidence of investors, right, we know that we're going to need a tremendous amount of new energy infrastructure, without the investor confidence to make that happen, we're not going to be able to to, you know, achieve the emissions reductions that are envisioned envisaged. So for us that whole question of division, and how do we address division, where it exists, is just fundamental to our efforts.   Dan Seguin  07:17 Okay. Now, do you think we lack a shared positive vision as Canadians on the future? And how we get there together? How do we build bridges? Is this what you're trying to achieve with positive energy?   Monica Gattinger  07:32 Yeah, I'd say yes or no, on the shared vision. So you know, we do a lot of public opinion, polling researchers, as you might know, Dan, and and, you know, uniformly Canadian scores, government's very poorly, on whether they are succeeding and developing a shared vision for Canada's energy future. That said, you know, I don't see it all as a whole bad news, there is remarkable alignment of views among Canadians on many aspects of the country's energy future, I think sometimes what, what we tend to hear, you know, are the voices in political debates and in the media, and in the end in the media, that are on you know, sort of opposite ends of a spectrum, if you look at, you know, sort of where Canadians are at, in general, you know, in terms of the majority opinions, they're often much more aligned than what you might think, by listening to some of our political debates or reading the media. So I think what we're trying to do at positive energies is a few things. One is, you know, to really try to see just how divided we are, and a lot of our work has brought forward that we're not as divided as we might think, on some of these issues. And the second thing we're trying to do is provide a forum for people who do want to work constructively and positively to chart a positive path forward, provide that forum for those to do that, and then to undertake academic research to support that. And one of the things that we found is that there's just a tremendous appetite for that kind of initiative.   Dan Seguin  09:05 Okay, Monica, hoping you can shed some light on this next item. What do you mean, when you see that Canada is at a log jam when it comes to charting our energy future?   Monica Gattinger  09:19 That's a great question. Because, you know, when I think about when we wrote that, that was a few that were written a few years ago. So it kind of answers that question a little bit differently now than I would have if you'd asked it at the time that we wrote it. So if you think about it, cast your mind back to 2015. And the creation between the federal government and the provinces of the pan Canadian framework on clean growth and climate change, there was a lot of alignment between the federal government and provinces and territories around climate change. And then we had some electoral turnover and new governments coming into power at the provincial level and the round sort of the 2018 period and that relative peace between federal and provincial governments began to be overturned. And so that, you know, the log jam that we were referring to was really written at that period of time, we were seeing a lot of fractiousness between the federal government and provincial governments. And don't get me wrong, we still see, we still see some of that, but certainly not to the level we did at that time. So I think it over the last few years, we've seen much greater alignment emerge in the country, notably around the concept of net zero, which we think is really, really, really constructive progress. I think, where we see some of the challenges now is moving to implementation, right? How do we move to reduce emissions and actually roll up our sleeves and do it in a way that will build and maintain public confidence? That's, you know, that's very much where we're casting our efforts these days.   Dan Seguin  10:50 Okay, cool. And what are some of the weaknesses you found in energy decision making?   Monica Gattinger  10:56 So I think there are a few that I would point to, you know, one would be and our current work is zeroing in on this more than we have in the past, is the whole question of energy security. And by that what, what we're referring to is the reliability and affordability and availability of energy. So in the absence, I mean, Dan, you know, you work at hydro Ottawa, so you would know, when you know, when the lights go out. People are nervous, it really captures their attention. I'll put it that way. And so in the absence of, you know, reliable, affordable energy, it's going to be very difficult to make ongoing progress on emissions reductions. So that whole question of energy security is one of the what I'd say is sort of the weaknesses in the frame that policymakers are often bringing to, to energy decision making, I think a second area that really is going to need some attention is our policy and regulatory frameworks for energy project decision making. I mean, we know, let's say, you know, take electrification, if we're going to be moving forward on electrification in a meaningful way. Most reasonable estimates assume we're going to need to double or triple our generating capacity in the country, and all the infrastructure transmission, local distribution, all that goes along with that, that's going to require building a whole lot of infrastructure. And so there's definitely some weaknesses there in our existing frameworks for doing that. And then the third area I'd point to is collaboration between governments. And so yes, federal and provincial, but it's also increasingly, municipal governments as well need to be collaborating with other levels of government and indigenous governments too, so bringing together that collaboration across jurisdictions is an area where there's a lot of a lot of strength that we're going to need to be building.   Dan Seguin  12:47 Okay, Monica, following up on this theme, positive energy has conducted a number of public opinion surveys since 2015, to gauge Canadian support for the country's climate commitments and their views on our international credibility. What are some surprises? And have you seen any change in attitudes since you started the surveys?   Monica Gattinger  13:11 Yeah, we've done a lot of work. We have a fantastic partnership with Nanos research, we've been working with Nick Nanos and the Nanos team since 2015, we've done lots of public opinion polling along the way. And so I think, you know, one of the things that has surprised me the most about this, and maybe it's just my own naivete as as a, you know, an academic researcher, but is just the pragmatism of Canadians, you know, many of the questions that we put to Canadians come back with very pragmatic and balanced responses. So there seems to be that recognition on the part of, of Canadians of the need to take a balanced approach to energy and climate issues. So I'll give you just a couple of quick examples. So we've been tracking Canadians level of climate ambition, we started doing this actually, during the pandemic. And so we asked people on a scale of zero to 10, where zero is now the worst time and 10 is the best time to take action on climate, you know, what, what, how would you score things? And, you know, the majority of Canadians, you know, score things strongly, they want to see climate action. We've seen some weakening of that, notably, as we've got some weakening of the economic conditions that has weakened people's appetite. So that's sort of one thing we, you know, Canadians want climate action. On the second. Second thing I'd point to is, we've done a lot of tracking as well, around Canadians views on the importance of oil and gas to Canada's current economy and to its future economy. And so, you know, there again, we see what you might expect, which is people there's a recognition that oil and gas is important to Canada's current economy. Views tend to drop off a little bit in terms of its importance to the future economy, but much stronger than I would have anticipated in terms of the level of, you know, opinions when it comes to the strength, or when it comes to the importance, apologies of oil and gas and Canada's current and future economy. One thing I'm just going to, you know, like heads up, we've got a study coming out very shortly. And we've seen a jump in Canadians' views around the importance of oil and gas to the country's current and future economy. And we're thinking that this might be because of economic conditions having changed, you know, the war, Russia's war in Ukraine, just creating a different kind of an environment for Canadians opinions, then the last thing I point to that, for me is kind of been surprising, but in a not always fun way is that we've also been tracking Canadians views on government's performance on energy and climate issues. And then it doesn't matter what aspect of government performance we ask people about, they always score it like so weak, like weak to the point, when we first asked this question, I'm like, Nick, do people you know, just kind of score governments weekly? And so this is just, you know, typical stuff. He's like, No, Monica, that's really low scores. So I think there's a recognition there on the part of Canadians that governments have a lot of work to do, that this is difficult stuff, to to to take on. But that we're going to need to if we're going to be able to achieve some of our climate ambition in the country.   Dan Seguin  16:27 Now, let's dig into the research. First, can you tell us who you're convening and bringing together to conduct your research and who your intended audience is? Who do you want to influence?    Monica Gattinger  16:42 Yeah, so we're bringing together leaders, from business, from government and from government, we're referring to both policymakers and regulatory agencies, leaders from indigenous organizations, from civil society organizations, like environmental NGOs, and then academics, like myself. And our aim is really with the research and convening that we're undertaking is to inform decision making, you know, so the key audience for this from our perspective as government decision makers, whether policymakers or regulators at, you know, at at any level of government, really, more broadly, in our we're working very closely with the energy and climate community at large. So our intended audience isn't, you know, sort of the general public per se, although I like to think that we're sort of working on their behalf in terms of a lot of the work, a lot of the work that we're doing   Dan Seguin  17:37 Great stuff, Monica, now, let's talk about your first multi year research phase, public confidence in energy decision making. Why is it important to start here?   Monica Gattinger  17:49 Yeah, for us, this was really crucial to try to dig into and understand why we are facing these challenges to public confidence in decision making, for energy and climate issues. And, you know, believe it or not, we spent about two years trying to dig into that problem and identify all of its different, all of its different components. So we published a study in that first phase of research called system under stress, where we were focusing on energy decision making, and the need to inform, sorry, to reform energy decision making in that study, and this was sort of how we unpack this challenge of public confidence. We use this metaphor of elephants, horses, and sitting ducks. And so the elephants were elephants in the room. So at that time, one of the big issues that was, you know, informing or leading to challenges in public confidence was that there was a belief on the part of quite a few folks that governments were taking insufficient action on climate change. And as a result of that, not having a forum, you know, to move forward action on climate change, many folks who were concerned about that or raising those issues in regulatory processes for individual energy projects, right? And if your regulators say, well, that's not part of my mandate. So what would we do with this, and that led to some challenges. Another Elephant, you know, another elephant in the room at that time was reconciliation with indigenous peoples, that there was insufficient action on the part, you know, on the, you know, in the minds of many around reconciliation with indigenous peoples and so, you know, some of the big challenges that indigenous communities were facing, whether missing, murdered indigenous women, you know, potable drinking water, economic conditions, a whole host of challenges were also being raised in the context of individual energy project decision making. The process for lack of other forums to take those concerns to another elephant in the room was cumulative effects. Right. So communities were concerned not necessarily about a particular project, but about the project that came before the project, who was going to come after it, and what would be the cumulative effects on their community. So that was sort of the elephant, the elephant in the room policy gaps, basically, that governments needed to take more action to fulfill. When it came to the horses, we were referring to horses that had left the barn. So in other words, changes in society and the broader, you know, context, where you're not going to turn the clock back on them. So things like, you know, people expect, rightly, to have a say, in decisions that affect them. They're not different, you know, they don't defer the way they used to, to governments and to decision makers, they expect to have a say in decisions that affect them. And some of our decision making processes weren't frankly, providing sufficient opportunities for them to be heard. Technological change, right, you know, you're not going to turn the clock back on social media. And that also has fundamentally changed the context in terms of how information circulates capacities for misinformation, disinformation, etc. And so when against this backdrop, you know, who are the sitting ducks? Well, the sitting ducks are government decision makers, right? They're trying to deal with all of these challenges. We got a lot of traction with that report, Dan, because I think it sort of helped people to, you know, frame up, what is the nature of the challenge that we're facing when it comes to public confidence, which of course, then begins to open up solution spaces?   Dan Seguin  21:40 Okay. What did you uncover when it came to the role of local communities?   Monica Gattinger  21:46 Yeah, we did a major study on this, it was some of this was happening concurrently. But we did a major study in collaboration with the Canada West Foundation, where we did some very deep dive case study research on half a dozen energy projects across the country with the aim of identifying drivers of local community satisfaction or dissatisfaction with energy project, decision making processes. So these were projects, you know, wind, gas plants, hydro facilities, transmission lines, pipelines, shale development, like a whole variety of different kinds of projects in different locations across the country. And so there are a few things I'd point to there in terms of some of the key findings. Probably the first and foremost is the importance of early and meaningful consultation and engagement. And I feel kind of silly saying that, because it's like, we have been saying this for years, how important this is. But yet, you know, there are still proponents that aren't necessarily, you know, aren't necessarily getting out there early and in a meaningful way, to communities. I think the second thing, and it's related, that I'd point to is the importance of information, like yes, communities want information about a project. But it's an what we refer to in the report is a necessary but insufficient condition, right, just saying, you know, here's the project, here's the information, this should change your mind, if you've got any concerns, really and truly is not is not enough, you need that meaningful engagement, you need to hear from people. And in some instances, this is a third thing I'd point to. In some instances, you know, it's important to draw the distinction between what a community's interests are so it could be, you know, economic development, jobs, etc, but also what their values are. And there may be some projects that even though they might advance the community's interests, in terms of jobs, etc, if they run counter to community values, and what they want to see developed in their community, it will be very challenging to foster support for up for a project. Another thing, we found just a couple more things that point to here. Another thing we found that I think is going to be increasingly important as we move on net zero and emissions reductions, oftentimes at the community level, the key environmental issue is local environmental impacts, as opposed to global climate change impacts. So even if you've got a project that's going to be good for the climate, if it's got local environmental impacts from the perspective of a community, those concerns may actually trump the good that could be done more broadly when it comes to the climate. And so I guess the last thing I'd point to is, you know, just the importance of process, having a decision making process in which people can have faith. And so, you know, we did a lot of work right in communities. So you'd have community members say, like, I can get behind a decision that I don't agree with, you know, if my perspective is at the end of the day, we're heard in a meaningful way and were considered in a meaningful way. But governments decided to go in a different direction. I can, you know, I can live with that as long as I felt that the process was one that was legitimate. So that process piece is so important at the community level.   Dan Seguin  25:02 Okay, now, what were some of the biggest takeaways from your project? Monica? Were you surprised by any of the data?   Monica Gattinger  25:09 Yeah, I think, you know, for me, I probably go back to the local versus global impacts piece, I think that is a circle, we're gonna have to figure out how to square for lack of a better a better metaphor here going forward, because many of the projects that we're going to need in the years ahead in terms of emissions reductions, they are going to have local environmental impacts. You know, and it doesn't take long to think about examples of that, right. So think about mining for critical minerals, think about transmission infrastructure, think I mean, on and on and on. And so thinking through how do we, you know, be respectful of local communities ensure we've got processes in place that that they can have faith in and ensure that local environmental impacts are mitigated in a meaningful fashion? And frankly, no has to be an option sometimes, right? There are some projects that have to receive a no of all projects are greenlighted, that puts the entire system into question in people's minds.   Dan Seguin  26:15 Okay, Monica, your second research phase just concluded Canada's energy future in an age of climate change. What challenges and opportunities were you focused on? And what did you uncover?   Monica Gattinger  26:28 That's a big question, Dan. So maybe just a couple of things I'll point to. The first is to say that, you know, for that particular project, because it was or that phase because it got underway at a time where there was quite a lot of fractiousness between the federal and provincial governments. We took on the topic of polarization, in that phase of the research to try to understand, you know, just how polarized are we, when it comes to energy and climate issues? And, and the, you know, the, the, the fortunate answer was that we're not as polarized as we might think, on some of these issues. So those areas where, you know, people's opinions are truly at opposite ends of a spectrum, they've got their heels dug in, the opinions are very hardened and crystallized, they're not willing to move, you know, there's, those are very few and far between a lot more of the division that we see back to that word division that we talked about earlier, Dan, it so those are opinions that are maybe a little bit more malleable to change, where you can potentially bring people together and have a constructive, constructive conversation to move things forward. So that the polarization, the polarization work, I think was really important to try to, you know, shine a light empirically on just how polarized are we, one thing that did come out of that work, though, that I think is really important to note is that a lot of the polarization that we see is along partisan lines. And so it's really important to have and create non-partisan forums for people to come together because partisan polarization on energy and climate issues can be quite challenging. So we looked at polarization, we also looked at, we continued our work around sort of roles and responsibilities of different government authorities in energy and climate decision making, we did a really big project around energy regulators with, you know, again, thinking about how important they are going to be in the future when it comes to energy project proposals and evaluating energy project proposals. And I think, you know, what came out of that work is just the importance of creating regulatory frameworks that are functional, right, they're going to enable us to get to a decision. But that is adaptable. You know, we know there are going to be new energy sources, new technologies we're going to need to be adapting our frameworks over time. And that are, you know, absolutely this crucial element and of legitimate that they are that people have confidence in those decision making processes. But it's not just about regulators. It's also about the broader policy context within which they work, you know, the need for regulatory agencies to be operating in the context of clear policy frameworks. You know, for there to be a good understanding between policymakers and regulators they have their respective roles when it comes to things like energy project, energy project approvals. The third area that we focused on in this most recent phase of research was models of and limits to consensus building, right. So if we do have division, how do we try to foster consensus and we recognize we're not going to get to you know, everybody holding hands and singing Kumbaya there. This is politics, there will be, there will be divisions. But we did a lot of work on this whole concept of what are some of the models that can be utilized to foster consensus? What are some of the limits to those models? And the sort of bottom line of that research is that progress is possible when it comes to consensus building, but it's not easy. It's a hard one, it takes time, it takes a lot of thoughtful preparation and care to put in place processes that will drive towards positive outcomes.   Dan Seguin  30:32 Okay. Now, there were five case studies that came out of this phase intended to identify what works when it comes to public confidence in decision making. What are some of the highlights?   Monica Gattinger  30:44 Yeah, and this kind of picks up on the question of consensus building and models of and limits to consensus building. So we undertook a number of case studies of different initiatives that have been tried in Canada to try to foster consensus. So we looked, for example, at the Alberta climate leadership plan, we looked at the Eco fiscal commission, we looked at the National roundtable on the environment of the economy, we looked at the just transition Task Force on the coal fired power phase out. So this was a mixture of federal provincial, government, non government, current past initiatives. And there are a few things that I point to that, you know, came out of that work. The first is that there are no silver bullets. I mean, Boy, wouldn't it be nice if there were easy answers to these really tough questions, but there are not easy answers to these really tough questions. They, you know, it really is important to, to have kind of a multi pronged approach. And more than one approach, there isn't going to be one single initiative that's going to solve all of these challenges. But process matters process really matters. So who is involved? How are decisions taken? You know, is the process seen as legitimate? That's really, you know, absolutely the place to start with any of these processes around consensus building. Again, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right. So you can have in place a process that is designed to, you know, bring forward recommendations to the government on policy. But if people don't have trust in the information that's produced by that initiative, you've got a problem, right? So I think the Eco fiscal commission was really interesting in that, in that case, because it brought together an advisory board, that included representation from a variety of different political parties, the aim being to see if these folks can come together, and you know, work together and have confidence in this process, then others are more likely to have confidence in the information that's produced on the studies that are produced by by in that case, the ecofiscal, commission, there are a lot of relationships between different processes. So for example, you know, if you think about the development of a carbon price in Canada, you know, yes, that's where the Eco fiscal commission was focusing a lot of its efforts. But the Alberta climate leadership plan, in part paved the way towards the development of a federal price on carbon, because of the work that was done in the province to put in place a carbon pricing a carbon pricing scheme. And then the final thing, and this isn't something that people always like to hear, unfortunately, is that building consensus takes time. And it's something that is, as we know, in the current context with, you know, with climate change is something that we don't necessarily have the luxury of having. So it's how do you sort of hold those two things in your hand at the same time, and I often use the example of a carbon tax, having a carbon tax in Canada is a massive achievement for the country. But it took probably a decade or more to get there. And that's only one small in the big scheme of things policy tool. So you know, no silver bullets. It takes time, but it is possible. So progress is possible, but it's hard won.   Dan Seguin  34:12 Okay, now, this was fascinating. Monica, you identified two realities of energy and environmental leaders in Canada, when it comes to Canada's energy transition. Maybe you can unpack that for us just a bit more.   Monica Gattinger  34:29 Yeah, for sure. So this was a really, really neat study, one of the things that we found in our work, because we convene when we are, you know, very close to a lot of energy and environmental leaders. One of the things that we were finding is that this word transition could have elements to it that were kind of polarizing. And so for some folks, it was something that actually drove them away from our table rather than bringing them to our table. So being academics, we thought, well, let's do a study on this. What do people think transition is? What does it mean to them? Why are we running into these issues? And I have to credit our former Research Director, Dr. Marissa Beck, this was her idea, it was her study, she did an absolutely tremendous job. So she went out there and spoke with over 40 energy and environmental leaders across the country. And, and what, you know, what emerged from that work was that there were really two different realities that people inhabited, either, you know, sort of in whole, or in part, when it comes to transition. And we didn't name the realities, we just stated them, you know, in a very, in a very sort of fact based way. And they differed in terms of scope, and pace of change. And, you know, so in one of the realities, you know, the, the idea is that we're going to have a more measured pace of change, it's going to be driven by market developments, some policy developments, we're going to in the future have, you know, a diverse energy portfolio that's going to include, you know, a variety of different energy sources, yes, in different proportions than we currently have them. But you know, that oil and gas, for instance, is going to be a part of the future. So that's sort of one reality, the other reality grounded in a much more, you know, ambitious, rapid, need for change, quickly grounded in science, much stronger role for government in terms of setting out the policy framework, much greater attention to the need to, notably to phase down oil and gas and in particular oil. And so you can imagine if you've got folks inhabiting these different realities, it is difficult for them to come together, because they're often talking past. They're often talking past one another. And, and so we didn't necessarily have any solutions for this proposed in that particular, in that particular study. I think our work really does try to do some convening around those issues. But what it really did in this particular study resonated so well, with folks in the Energy and Environment communities, we had people saying, like you just nailed it. Yes, that is exactly what is happening right now. And so you would have folks say, you know, well, the reality is, or we just need an honest conversation. But what the reality meant to them, what an honest conversation would mean to them was, was something completely different than folks inhabiting the other reality. And so these are the kinds of challenges, you know, Dan, that we, we hope to shed light on with our work. And we also hope to also address the research and convening as well.   Dan Seguin  37:50 Now, your third phase has just begun. What can you tell us so far, about strengthening public confidence on the road to net zero and the areas you're looking to cover in your research over the next several years?   Monica Gattinger  38:07 Yeah, no, that's a great opportunity to share this with you, Dan. Thanks. Thanks so much. So yeah, I mean, if our first phase was focused on public confidence, and kind of the here and now, second phase was Canada's energy future in an age of climate change, this phase is the longest term, longest term phase yet in terms of looking at net zero. And looking at 2050. We've got four areas that we're focusing in on in terms of this research, that really build in many ways on the work that we've done to date, we've been talking so far data about the importance of regulation, and having energy project decision making systems that are going to foster and support the kind of change to our energy systems that we're going to need. That's a big, a big area for us, one of the areas as well, that we're going to start to be getting into an in a more meaningful way, is downstream regulation as well, because with the, you know, with the growing attention to electrification, this is going to mean, you know, greater focus to what are our regulatory frameworks for energy delivery, whether it's in power markets, or in gas markets. And we think that there's, there's something that we will have to offer there as well, in terms of our work. So that's on the regulatory front. Another topic that for us, we think is really important is this whole question of energy security. And by that, you know, again, this isn't just about what's happening in global energy markets, it's what's happening domestically as well in terms of the need of the need to have reliable and affordable energy to ensure that we don't, you know, take one step forward and then two steps back on emissions reductions. So it's really very much about solving for Yes, emissions reductions and affordable reliable energy simultaneously, which in our observation is something that you know, has has not always been on the radar of policymakers, I think the energy system has just done such a great job of providing reliable, affordable energy that it's not always thought about. And yet, you know, if we're going to be transforming our energy systems, it better be front and center. Or we could really run into some challenges in terms of public confidence on the road ahead. The third area we're zeroing in on is intergovernmental collaboration. We are a federation, we are a federation with increasing roles and authority for indigenous governments, as well. So it's really about how do we make sure we've got good collaboration between federal, provincial, territorial, indigenous and municipal governments on the road ahead. And again, it's that kind of collaboration, collaboration piece. And then finally, we're going to continue with the public opinion survey research. And that work generally aims to support the other streams of research. So we're asking questions that relate to some of the broader work that we're doing. Cool. Okay.   Dan Seguin  41:07 I know you're going to tell me it's early Monica, but based on what the data and public service have shown over these many years, is Net Zero. resonating with people?   Monica Gattinger  41:19 Well, interestingly, so last June, we held a conference to mark the, you know, the conclusion of phase two and the launch of phase three. And we did some public opinion survey research going into that conference, including some questions around net zero. So we asked people if they had heard about net zero. And then we asked them, you know, the dreaded open ended question, and what does it mean to you? So it's one thing to have heard about, it's another thing to, you know, be asked to define it. And I was really surprised at like, the majority, like a strong majority of people had heard of net zero. And when asked to define it provided a definition that was pretty on target. So people, you know, I don't know if that means it's resonating with people. But they have definitely absorbed that this concept, and that this is something that, you know, is in policymakers is in policymakers minds. I think the other thing I would note, though, is you know, there's netzero, and then there's just emissions reductions writ large, the work that we've done around Canadian support for emissions reductions, climate change, policy, etc, shows just time and again, Canadians want to see this, they want to see emissions reductions, they want to see it done in a balanced way back to the pragmatic response I was giving earlier. But they're definitely, definitely committed to that.   Dan Seguin  42:43 Okay, now, when do you expect your first publication will be shared?   Monica Gattinger  42:47 So we've got our quarterly public opinion surveys that come out every few months. We actually have some, we're just finalizing a study right now that will be published very, very shortly. In terms of the research publications, we've got two underway right now, that should be published within the next number of months. One is looking at regulation for project decision making, and in particular, this whole question of timelines. So if you talk with folks, you know, in industry and in government, right now, they'll say, Well, we got to build all this stuff. But can we build it fast enough? And so that's actually the title of the project? Can we build it out fast enough? And we're focusing on what are some of the issues when it comes to regulatory frameworks for project decision making. So that's one study that should be coming out within the next few months. And then a second one, it's republication of a study that we completed for the Canadian Gas Association, electricity Canada and Natural Resources Canada, but this time last year, which was looking at regulation of energy delivery systems and power and gas markets, you're looking at international case studies to try to identify like, how are other countries grappling with the challenges of netzero in their power and gas markets. So we're going to be updating and republishing that study. We're in the process of doing that right now, that should be coming out in the next few months. And the case studies that we're looking at in that research are Western Australia, the United Kingdom, which as you might imagine, is a very interesting case study given the challenges that they've had on their power and gas markets. And New York State.   Dan Seguin  44:25 Just wondering here, is there anything you can tell us about your appointment to the province's New Energy Transition panel, its objectives and how you feel this could move the energy conversation forward in Ontario.   Monica Gattinger  44:39 Thanks for the question. I mean, I'm, you know, let's be honest, I'm an energy geek. And so it is just an unbelievable honor to have been appointed to the panel. This for me, is a dream appointment. I'm just so so so enthused about it. I'm not going to be able to speak on behalf of the panel. It's too Early in our work, but I will just share, you know, in my personal capacity now that I think the panel does have the capacity or the potential to be really quite important to the province's energy future. So if you think about, you know, the research that we've been doing at positive energy, the importance of informed decision making on the part of governments to recognize all of the strengths, limitations, consequences, intended or otherwise, of their decisions on energy and climate. So the panel, I think, has a great opportunity to help inform decision making. But as I've said, on a couple of occasions, today, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right process matters. And, you know, the panel, again, has the potential to be a very important process in terms of its engagement, and meaningful engagement with stakeholders, with indigenous partners, with all those who are interested in the province's energy future. So, you know, a couple of just additional things I would say. One is that the panel's focus in its mandate on long term energy planning, I think, I think is very important, because we're gonna need to plan and think through the long term more than we ever have before in terms of our energy systems when it comes to emissions reductions. I think the other thing, you know, I would lastly, but not leastly, I would recognize, you know, the importance of affordability and reliability. You know, yes, undertaking emissions reductions, but ensuring it's done in a reliable and affordable way. That enables, you know, economic competitiveness and the like. And that's something that, you know, that this government, the Ontario government, brings to the table, which I think is extremely important and will be crucial for the future.   Dan Seguin  46:53 Okay, Monica. Now, if you could speak to everyone in Canada, what would you want people to know, that you think is not widely known? Or understood?   Monica Gattinger  47:06 Yeah, there are a few things I would point to there. I think one would be the scale of the transformation that we're contemplating with netzero. I mean, if you take electrification, just as an example, you know, about only about 20% of and use energy, I mean, I'm telling you this, Dan, you know, all this stuff, but only about 20%. The venue's energy, you know, is currently accounted for by electricity. If we're looking to scale that up, you know, depending on what model you look at, but let's say you're looking to scale that up to you know, 80%, that's four times what it where it currently stands, this is a massive, massive transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. And I think that's one area where, you know, there isn't necessarily as much understanding as there could be in terms of the scale. Like, the second thing that I would love to get out there is that, you know, there's often a view that industry is, you know, dragging its heels, it's, you know, putting in place roadblocks, it's acting as a barrier. That's not what I see, in our engagements with folks in industry across the country, and a whole variety of different energy, different segments of the energy sector. Industry is there. What, you know, the real challenge now is kind of how do we move from the what, to the how, and foster an environment that will foster the kind of change that the companies are really looking to make. And then the third area that I would point to is reconciliation with indigenous peoples. We haven't spoken about that too much this morning. But that's one of the areas over the last number of years where there has just been such a fundamental change in the way industry, and indigenous communities and governments are working together. I think what we often see in you know, in the newspapers in the media is instances of conflict, you know, for obvious reasons, that's, that's, you know, what the media is going to be drawn to, but there are so many examples of just unbelievably constructive, meaningful partnerships between indigenous communities and industry. And I think that's something that you know, that that really is, is just a wonderful, wonderful change over the last few years.   Dan Seguin  49:24 Lastly, Monica, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. I'm hoping you say you're ready.   Monica Gattinger  49:33 Okay, I'm ready. I'll do my best.    Monica Gattinger  49:36 Here we go.What are you reading right now?   Monica Gattinger  49:39 I am reading The Heart Goes Last by Margaret Atwood. You would think you know, during a global pandemic, you wouldn't read dystopian fiction, but that's what I'm doing. Terrific. Terrific book. by Margaret Atwood.   Dan Seguin  49:52 Okay, Monica, what would you name your boat? If you had one or maybe you do have one?   Monica Gattinger  49:58 I do not have one but if I did I think I would name it Smooth Sailing, because that's what I'd want to be doing when I was on my boat.    Dan Seguin  50:05 Okay, who is someone that you really admire?    Monica Gattinger  50:09 Oh, without question. My parents. You know, we've had some pretty tragic things happen in my family and they have, you know, continued to be positive soldier on, be great grandparents to my kids, I don't know how they do it, I admire them to the moon and back, as they say,   Dan Seguin  50:26 Okay, moving on, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witness?    Monica Gattinger  50:33 That's a tough one, I think I'd say I spent a lot of time outdoors. We have dogs. So I'm often out with the dogs, I ride horses. So I'm often out horseback riding anything in nature, there are so many magical moments where you see, you know, ways that animals are interacting with one another or things happening. Things happening in the, you know, in the plant environment and ecosystem that to me are just magical, and remind me of just how little we know about the world around us.   Dan Seguin  51:06 Okay, Monica, that's cool. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began,   Monica Gattinger  51:13 My family has been extremely fortunate during the pandemic. So yeah, it feels almost kind of trite to talk about challenges. I think if there's one thing that I would point to, though, it's the last time it's the last time notably, in my family's case, between my sons and their grandparents. You know, my youngest son used to go to his grandparents house every day after school, they'd feed him snacks, he'd come home, that's gone. They've you know, they've they're missing him growing into a young man, that's, that's been really, really tough. I mean, it's a first world problem. I, you know, we really have been fortunate. But that last time is, unfortunately, and we're just not going to get that back.   Dan Seguin  51:58 Now, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What are some of your favorite shows are movie   Monica Gattinger  52:06 I could talk for hours about this. But if I had to just pick one, the whole Yellowstone series, I am just crazy for that series, you know, because I horseback ride anything that involves horses and ranches. And my own family history, you know, involves homesteading. Just that whole series Yellowstone 1883 1923. And he was talking about magic down the fact that all of that comes out of Taylor Sheridan's brain that fast I have, I don't understand at all. But I really enjoy watching it. That series is just phenomenal.   Dan Seguin  52:45 Lastly, Monica, what is exciting you about your industry right now.   Monica Gattinger  52:50 I think it's the people who are now on the let's roll up our sleeves face. And let's figure out how to know how to get this done. There's the waterfront of challenges seems endless, but the fact that that there's much more alignment among industry, government, civil society, you know, take your pick indigenous organizations, etc, about ensuring that we're reducing emissions, and, you know, the desire to work together to figure out how, to me is really exciting.   Dan Seguin  53:20 Well, Monica, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect or find out more?   Monica Gattinger  53:35 We have a website that you will be welcomed to, to reach out to just type into Google "University of Ottawa positive energy" and it should pop up for you. People are welcome to reach out to me personally, you know, again, easy to find me on the Internet, email addresses and the like. I'd be happy to hear from people.   Dan Seguin  53:55 Again. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.   Monica Gattinger  53:59 This was great. Thanks, Dan. Really appreciate the opportunity.    Dan Seguin  54:03 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

Earlier in June 2023, a series of wildfires across Quebec, Canada blanketed eastern North America in smoke. In this episode of the ESG Insider podcast, we speak to three scientists about how climate change is exacerbating hazards like these wildfires, and to understand how an event like this impacts health, business and the economy.   We talk to Werner Kurz, senior research scientist with the Canadian Forest Service of Natural Resources Canada, about how wildfires can impact net-zero goals.   We speak with Terry Thompson, Chief Climate Scientist at the Climate Center of Excellence at S&P Global Sustainable1. He talks to us about the financial impacts of wildfires.    And to understand the health impacts of climate change broadly and wildfires specifically, we interview Sarah Henderson, Scientific Director of Environmental Health Services at Canada's British Columbia Centre for Disease Control, and at the National Collaborating Centre for Environmental Health.   Photo source: Getty Images     Copyright ©2023 by S&P Global         DISCLAIMER          This piece was published by S&P Global Sustainable1, a part of S&P Global.         By accessing this Podcast, I acknowledge that S&P GLOBAL makes no warranty, guarantee, or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this Podcast. The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this Podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this Podcast is done at your own risk. This Podcast should not be considered professional advice. Unless specifically stated otherwise, S&P GLOBAL does not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned in this Podcast, and information from this Podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third party materials or content of any third party site referenced in this Podcast do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of S&P GLOBAL. S&P GLOBAL assumes no responsibility or liability for the accuracy or completeness of the content contained in third party materials or on third party sites referenced in this Podcast or the compliance with applicable laws of such materials and/or links referenced herein. Moreover, S&P GLOBAL makes no warranty that this Podcast, or the server that makes it available, is free of viruses, worms, or other elements or codes that manifest contaminating or destructive properties.         S&P GLOBAL EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST. 

Canadian wildfires have been spreading in that country for weeks, and that's led to smoke and poor air quality in the United States, and specifically in Michigan. We talk with Michigan meteorologist Stephanie Hengesbach, Natural Resources Canada wildfire expert Dr. Chris Stockdale, and Detroit City Councilwoman Gabriela Santiago-Romero about wildfire smoke and creating cleaner air in Michigan. Then, we discuss how to make solar technology more accessible with environmental law expert Nick Schroeck and Ann Arbor state Senator Jeff Irwin.

It might not rain or snow in space, but our solar system is pretty active. Auroras are inspiring, but the conditions that cause them can impact our planet and technology. NASA Ambassador Tony Rice discusses space weather, and how bursts of solar energy can impact aviation, agriculture, and the electric grid. About the Across the Sky podcast The weekly weather podcast is hosted on a rotation by the Lee Weather team: Matt Holiner of Lee Enterprises' Midwest group in Chicago, Kirsten Lang of the Tulsa World in Oklahoma, Joe Martucci of the Press of Atlantic City, N.J., and Sean Sublette of the Richmond Times-Dispatch in Virginia. Episode transcript Note: The following transcript was created by Adobe Premiere and may contain misspellings and other inaccuracies as it was generated automatically: Hello, everyone. I'm meteorologist Sean Sublette and welcome to Across the Sky, our National Lee Enterprises weather podcast. Lee Enterprises has print and digital operations in 77 locations across the country, including my home base in Richmond, Virginia. I'm joined this week by my meteorologist colleagues from across the sky, Matt Holiner in Chicago and Joe Martucci in Atlantic City and all across the Jersey Shore. Our colleague Kirsten Lang is taking us through a few weeks off to be with family and fellows. We've got a fabulous guest this week, our buddy Tony Rice, a Nassau ambassador. We go to him for all things about astronomy. We've had all the Aurora talk recently, so we're going to get into that and all things space, weather and space weather is something that it's hard to explain. I mean, it's what's going on the sun and how it affects what's going here on Earth. But it's not it's not weather the way we think of of weather. You know what I mean? Yeah. There's no seven day forecast that you put out with the high and low temperatures on this stuff. But it's about the interaction of the, you know, proverbial world around us and the worlds around us. Right. Jupiter, Mars, Neptune, they all have their own types of weather. In this case, we're talking a lot about the sun and how the sun, you know, and its interaction with the air or lack thereof, you know, whether it's Earth or in outer space and how it impacts us. So. Tony, Tony, also, we should say Sean has been on a number of our podcasts. He has given us the astronomy report usually towards the end. So we are we're happy to have him and actually speak to us for more than the 60 seconds, you know, a little blurb he has. So we have a whole half hour with him and I think everyone's going to enjoy it, you know, if you like space, I think most people do. NASA's always rates very highly as the government organizations with high favorability ratings think. You will like this podcast episode. Can we get. Yeah, I've really enjoyed Tony's astronomy reports. I always enjoyed that segment. As always. Is going out with something that's just super interesting, you know, whether it's something to look at in the sky or talking about the auroras. And so like we knew that just off those little minute segments that he does, the guy is just fascinating. We've got to bring him on, do a whole episode with him. And that's what we did. And sure enough, it ended up being a pretty fascinating conversation. Yeah, we're going to so we're going to jump right into it from auroras to space, weather, radio, blackouts, all that stuff. Here's our conversation with NASA Ambassador Tony Rice. Our guest this week is Tony Rice, NASA ambassador, which means there's a lot of education and outreach about astronomy and space science. Tony, thanks for taking some time with us on the Across the Sky podcast. It's good talking to you again, man. Yeah, it's been a little while since we've run into each other. I appreciate the invite. You bet. You bet. Before we get into all the good stuff, Auroras gpps a coronal mass ejections can you explain to the listeners what what a NASA ambassador is? So it's a volunteer program through NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and it dates back to the Galileo probe, actually, and was an outreach program that was started on that. It's really expanded a lot. And what we do is just basically try to get people interested in all the cool things that are happening in the sky. And there's ambassadors all over the country. So if you are a meteorologist, a broadcast meteorologist, go on the JPL website and look for NASA ambassadors and reach out to your local ambassador, especially if you're a teacher or a scoutmaster or, you know, anybody that's that's working with formal and informal education. Reach out to your local ambassador and they can bring some really cool resources and resources and and and share some really cool things, not just about astronomy, but about all these cool missions that are happening right now that are teaching us so much about the universe. There is so much the Auroras have gotten a lot of press recently and with good reason, and I do want to get into those. But first I want to step back about the cause of the Auroras in the first place. We know Earth has this, you know, magnetic sphere and it bends and particles and stuff like that. But I want to go back to the sun first, kind of where where the energy is coming from. These come from things called solar flares, coronal mass ejections. Can you tell people what the difference between those two events are? They're very much related. And when we we think about the sun and we we take a glance at the sun when it's directly overhead or especially when we see it down on on the horizon at sunset, it looks very static. It just looks like this this orange disk, you know, there on the horizon. But the sun is a very, very dynamic thing. It rotates like our planet rotates, too. So we're keeping an eye on all this dynamism that's going on there. You might have heard of sunspots. We probably heard of some of the solar flares. You mentioned coronal mass ejections. There are all of these things that are going on there that when they reach a peak, when they reach kind of a critical mass, they can create events that are very much going to impact us here on the earth. So a sunspot is actually a cooler spot on the surface. I'm using the surface very, very generously because this is, of course, the boiling hot gases there on the on the surface of the sun, that cooler spot. All this energy is coming up from the center of the sun. Hello, everyone. I'm meteorologist Shaun Sublets and welcome to Across the Sky our national Lee Enterprises weather podcast Lee Enterprises has print and digital operations in 77 locations across the country, including my home base in Richmond, Virginia. I'm joined this week by my meteorologist colleagues from across the sky, Matt Hollander in Chicago and Joe Martucci in Atlantic City and all across the Jersey Shore. Our colleague Kirsten Lang is taking a few weeks off to be with Stanley And Fellows, we've got a fabulous guest this week, our buddy Tony Rice, a niassa ambassador. We go to him for all things about astronomy. We've had all the Aurora talk recently, so we're going to get into that and all things space, weather and space weather is something that it's hard to explain. I mean, it's what's going on the sun and how it affects what's going here on earth. But it's not it's not weather the way we think of of weather, you know what I mean? Yeah, there's no seven day forecast. So you put out with the high and low temperatures on this stuff, but it's about the interaction of the, you know, proverbial world around us and the worlds around us. Right. Jupiter, Mars, nothing. They all have their own types of weather. In this case, we're talking a lot about the sign and how the sun, you know, and its interaction with the air or lack thereof, you know, whether it's earth or in outer space and how it impacts us. So, Tony, Tony, also, we should say Sean has been on a number of our podcasts. He has given us the astronomy report, usually towards the end. So we are we're happy to have him and actually speak to us for more than the 62nd little blurb he has. So we have a whole half hour with him in. I think everyone's going to enjoy it, you know, if you like space, I think most people do. That's always rates very highly as the government organizations with high favorability ratings think. You will like this podcast episode than we get. Yeah, I've really enjoyed Tony's astronomy reports. I always enjoy that segment. History always is going out with something that's just super interesting, you know, whether it's something to look at in the sky or talking about the auroras. And so like we knew that just off those little minute segments that he does, the guy is just faceted and we've got to bring him on, do a whole episode with him. And that's what we did. And sure enough, it ended up being a pretty fascinating conversation. Yeah, we're going to so we're going to jump right into it from auroras to space, weather, radio blackouts, all that stuff. Here's our conversation with NASA Ambassador Tony Rice. Our guest this week is Tony Rice, NASA ambassador, which means he does a lot of education and outreach about astronomy and space science. Tony, thanks for taking some time with us on the Across the Sky podcast. It's good talking to you again, man. Yeah, it's been a little while since we've run into each other. I appreciate him invite You bet. You bet. Before we get into all the good stuff, Auroras gpps coronal mass ejections. Can you explain to the listeners what what a NASA ambassador is? So it's a volunteer program through NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and it dates back to the Galileo probe, actually, and was an outreach program that was started on that. It's really expanded a lot. And what we do is just basically try to get people interested in all the cool things that are happening in the sky. And there's ambassadors all over the country. So if you are a meteorologist, a broadcast meteorologist, go on the JPL website and look for NASA's ambassadors and reach out to your local ambassador, especially if you're a teacher or a scoutmaster or, you know, anybody that's that's working with formal and informal education. Reach out to your local ambassador and they can bring some really cool resources and resources and and and share some really cool things, not just about astronomy. What about all these cool missions that are happening right now that are teaching us so much about the universe? There is so much. The Auroras have gotten a lot of press recently and with good reason, and I do want to get into those. But first I want to step back about the cause of the Auroras in the first place. We know Earth has this, you know, magnetosphere and it bends and particles and stuff like that. But I want to go back to the sun first, kind of where where the energy is coming from. These come from things called solar flares, coronal mass ejections. Can you tell people what the difference between those two events are? They're very much related and when we we think about the sun and we we take a glance at the sun when it's directly overhead or especially when we see it down on on the horizon at sunset, it looks very static. It just looks like this this orange disk, you know, there on the horizon. But the sun is a very, very dynamic thing. It rotates like our planet rotates, too. So we're keeping an eye on all this dynamism that's going on there. You might have heard of sunspots. We probably heard of some of the solar flares. You mentioned coronal mass ejections. There are all of these things that are going on there that when they reach a peak, when they reach kind of a critical mass, they can create events that are very much going to impact us here on the earth. So a sunspot is actually a cooler spot on the surface. I'm using the surface very, very generously because this is, of course, the boiling hot gases there on the on the surface of the sun, that cooler spot. All this energy is coming up from the center of the sun. It's got to get its way out and it makes its way around that cooler spot. And there's a lot of magnetic forces that are happening at the same time on the sun. So it's going to follow those magnetic lines. The energy is strong enough. It can follow those magnetic lines upwards and creates these kind of ropes, almost looks like twisted rubber bands. And we're talking a scale of of several several Earths long, huge, huge scale. And as those ropes continue to twist back on themselves, they can snap. And when that snaps, there's a bunch of energy that is released in something called a coronal mass ejection. And it's going to push the the normal amount of solar wind that happens all the time. Just that energy and the particles that are being pushed out by the sun just by continuing to burn its fuel, it's going to push it out in a much more violent fashion and and create some of the effects that I'm sure we're going to talk about here in the next couple of minutes. Okay. So so again, so how is that a little different from a flare or That is a flare. Yeah, that's the flare in a coronal mass ejection is a very significant flare, we'll call it. Okay. All right. Very cool. Just continue to walk us through the process here because we have this huge it's a big pulse of magnetic energy, right, that's coming towards Earth. Right. And so the Earth's magnetic field is helping to drive these auroras. But what would happen if the Earth didn't have that magnetic field? Well, we'd all see auroras, that's one thing. And we'll talk about why the upper latitudes are the ones that see them most often. If the magnetic field didn't exist, we'd all see auroras, but also all of you would be out of a job because we'd have no atmosphere, there'd be no meteorology, we'd be Mars. And that's one of the big things about all the talk we have about going to Mars that sometimes gets glossed over is Mars doesn't have an appreciable atmosphere. It's like 1/100 out of earth. And the reason it doesn't have an appreciable atmosphere is because it does not have that magnetic field that we have here on Earth. So pitcher, pitcher, Earth now pitcher, a big now shot. You'll appreciate this because I'm going to use a Southern reference. I think you've got it up there in New Jersey. You know, I don't know if you've been blessed with it yet in Chicago, but pitcher giant Krispy Kreme donut, really big earth sized. Okay. You're you're in good shape, though. Yes. So picture a giant Krispy Kreme donut surrounding Earth. And we're down in that hole. That is the shape of the magnetosphere, roughly. It's a Taurus. It's this donut shape. And it's not perfectly shaped because that solar wind actually causes the the backside of of the donut to stretch outward. But anyway, so as the solar wind is coming in and all that energy, all that magnetism and the charged particles and all of that, it's being deflected away from particularly the lower latitudes now, the upper latitudes that magnetosphere is, as the name suggests, it's magnetic. Those particles can follow those magnetic field lines down into the donut. And as it moves farther down into the donut, that's when we start to see more effects of it, such as the aurora. So, you know, we had this big Aurora event just about what day was. I believe it was April 23rd going into the 24th. That's Sunday night. And here in New Jersey, we're about 40 degrees latitude, you know, north latitude here. We did actually get to, quote unquote, see the aurora. But many people, I think, were disappointed that they couldn't see it with a naked eye. You can only see it with a long exposure camera at least in the southern part of the state where I am. Tell us about in that specific event, how far south could you have seen that Aurora, both with and without the naked eye? Because it really captured the attention of the country that Monday. This was a naked eye event farther up into the upper latitudes. So let me ask you this one question. The pictures that you saw, that long exposure that you saw, was it overhead or was it closer to the horizon? It was closer to the horizon. It was in Wildwood in New Jersey, which is actually about just about 39 degrees north latitude, if are really splitting hairs. But I did actually get a report, Tony, up in the far northwest corner of the state, about 41 degrees latitude that you could very faintly make it out with the naked eye there, because I'm wondering if that was about what you heard of across your findings over the over that day. The most beautiful pictures I saw were actually taken near Asheville, North Carolina. So it did. Visibility was that far south. But again, those were long exposures, long exposure photography can create some some really amazing images. It's worth pointing out that all those beautiful space images that we see, whether it's taken with something like the James Webb Space Telescope or any of the amazing images that we can see taken from the ground. Almost all of those are stacked images. They're long exposures and many, many, many of them dozens, sometimes hundreds of them stacked on top of each other because it's just you see things when a photon of light hits your eye and there's just not that many photons that are available to you when it's something that far away. If I ask about where you saw it and relative to the position in the sky, what you were seeing there in New Jersey was probably directly overhead, much even closer to the Canadian border. These things are happening very high up in even past the stratosphere. So when you see something that low on the horizon, you know that you're actually looking quite a bit farther away and that's the reason it appears so low. Also, keep in mind, you know, I mentioned looking at the sun directly overhead, how very bright it is now we can look at it when it is sunset because we're looking through 40, 50, 60, 80 thicknesses of atmosphere there. So when you see it on the horizon, it's so very much dimmer because you're looking through so much more atmosphere and that's causing those photons not to make it to your eye. We'll make it to your camera lens. And your camera lens can have a whole lot longer exposure than your eye can. So you're really up against the distance there. And I'll just say to Tony, this was that long exposure camera was also taken by a fellow Narsa and Vasser. His name is Chris Bagley, who's over here in Cape May County. And it was a phenomenal photo he took. But I appreciate the insight into that because I was curious to know, and that's not something you can walk out with your iPhone and snap a picture and not the right kind of images. Take a lot of practice to get to do right. It's beyond me. I really lean on a lot of friends that are really into that to get some of those incredible pictures that I share myself on Twitter and other places. And Tony, with this most recent bill, was there anything for us to be concerned about? Of course, you get these wonderful images and everybody gets excited about seeing something. They usually don't get to see. But then the other thing that usually is associated with it is the buzzword, a solar storm. So was there any danger to anywhere in the planet with this most recent and what kind of a solar storm would we be talking about to really cause disruptions and problems? Aware? Yes. Concern, no. And the word solar storm, it aligns really well with we'll call it terrestrial meteorology. Y'all are not the only ones making predictions out there. We've got our Space Weather Prediction Center, also run by Noah. There's watching these kind of things. Nothing to be concerned about there for most folks, but these kind of impacts, you know, when we see the additional auroral activity and see it that far south, the reason it is making that far south is because it's diving deeper into that donut that I was talking about. It has the energy to push further south and that additional energy does create some additional risk for particularly something like an airline pilot or even the passengers that would be flying in one of those polar routes. I know there's a lot of polar routes that are flown out of Chicago into some of the Chinese destinations and and in other parts of of Asia, Airlines will delay and sometimes even forego a flight that's going polar. There's following the polar route when there is a solar storm that is predicted because of the increased radiation exposure. So disruptive for the airlines. What about a communication? You know, as far as like GPS communication, satellite communication, does it interfere? Could there be a solar storm capable of disrupting cell phone signals for, for example, you know what? What would it take for that to happen? Or is it not possible at all? Probably the cell phone signals, because most of the impacts are happening in the upper atmosphere. There are two areas you mentioned. One of them, GPS is one high frequency communications, particularly the ones that the airlines use when they're flying over water, when they don't have towers near them, they will communicate using high frequency radio. It's up to individual planes to report their their positions to each other. Some of that's done via satellites as well as signals can be disrupted by solar storms because of of what these storms due to the atmosphere, they can make the upper atmosphere denser. They can make it more lumpy. And that's going to introduce errors into the GPS signals that could cause a blackout for a period of time. And we've got to remember that in today's world, Gypsies isn't just something we use to get to the grocery store in our cars. It's critical to aviation. It's even critical to agriculture. So many of the tractors now are driven by GPS and they're they're planning things and they are they're they're watering their fertilizing based on down to the centimeter level of accuracy. And when that's lost, you know, farmers are parking these tractors for a period of time until the solar storm threat is over. Yeah. I want to talk more about those when we come back after the break. But before I toss to break, Tony, one other question I want to just to get out there is about the colors of the aurora. I mean, you know, my understanding is that, you know, you have high energy particles. They're coming into the atmosphere. They slow down and they and depending on what the is, once they release energy, it comes out in a photon of light. Is that a belt? Right, Or is there something a little more accurate about that? That's that's a pretty good way to describe it. Another way of thinking about it is we've all seen fireworks and there's different colors of fireworks. It's different elements that are reacting in the upper atmosphere. In the case of the aurora. And those are the elements that are a part of the atmosphere itself. All the the sun is contributing here is the energy and the charged particles. And comparing that to fireworks, the fireworks themselves are made up of different elements so they burn different colors. Is green nitrogen or oxygen. I get them mixed up. I don't have to look it up in my head. That's fine. That's why we have Google. All right. So we're going to take a quick break. And on the other side, I want to talk more with Tony Rice, our NASA ambassador, about space weather and some of the other issues that space weather presents with for life here on Earth. So stay with us. We'll be right back with more on the Across the Sky podcast. And welcome back to the Across the Sky podcast. I'm here with NASA's ambassador, Tony Rice, talking to all things auroras and space weather. One of the great things or resources that we do have, Tony, is the space weather Prediction Center. And this is part of part of Noa, right? They do all of our our terrestrial weather gathering or data gathering. You go to the the WPC Noa dot gov site and you see space weather conditions. Okay, this is great, but you see r. S g which is, you know, radio blackout, solar radiation storms, geomagnetic storms. What's the best way to interpret what those three categories are and what they impact and impact is? The answer. Each one of those areas has a different impact or has a different area where the impact is felt the most. So you can have a green condition on R for radio blackouts and a red, yellow or red condition on the SE component of that, which is solar radiation. They want to reduce R for for obvious reasons, and that's going to be looked at by somebody like an airline differently. Okay. So there's no radio blackout conditions expected in the next 24 hours. So that's green. So all of my transatlantic flights are probably okay. Their high frequency communications are probably not going to be impacted by anything. Solar, though. The solar radiation right out there is is showing a yellow or a red. I might want to rethink some of those over over the pole flights that we were talking about earlier. And then the G is stands for geomagnetic storming. That's how much of a risk that we might see in the next 24 hours of a geomagnetic storm occurring. Now when we see that go above a green, that's when we start looking for auroral activity. So some of these things have some positive connotations and some of them have some negative connotation. When it comes to the aurora. All right. So so to follow on that, we know that the higher energy storms are going to produce broader auroras and they do have the potential to do some damage. So I'm sure you're familiar with the term Carrington event. Oh, yeah, definitely. Without getting too deep in the weeds, that was a very, very, very bad solar storm that took out power grids and what the late 19th century, I think it was, or early 20th century. I forget exactly what. So here's the thing. For those of us who study disasters, is that something we should really worry about? Is that is that something we should kind of have in the back of our minds? There's so much stuff to worry about nowadays. How much do we need to think about solar storms and electrical grids in this day and age? And now anybody listening to this podcast probably doesn't need to worry about it. Again, awareness, not concern. But right now, you know, go to your pile of bills and go look for the power bill. Get that name of that power company. That power company has somebody sitting in it right now or maybe their parent company or somebody is overlooking their power grid, is probably sitting in a mission control type room with lots of really pretty maps up on the wall with with projectors showing them. And probably one of those maps is coming from the Space Weather Prediction Center. And there may be another image of the sun that's coming from one of the the NSA assets. And we can talk about I'd like to talk about it. Some of the instrumentation is out there that helps us do these predictions. They are worrying about this and they are very interested in the kind of forecast that the Space Weather Prediction Center is putting out so that they can get ahead of any solar storms that are coming that might create a Carrington event. And I wouldn't worry so much about a Carrington event. These kind of events are very much like floods. They're very much like hurricanes. They come in different strengths and there's hundred years events, there's a thousand years events that kind of thing. It's all about risk and probability. So you mentioned the character of it. That's probably the biggest one that we have on the books. You know, that there was a a power grid failed back in 1989 because of a solar storm. Hydro-Quebec, their power grid, which serves both Ontario and upstate New York and some other areas, well, it went offline because of a solar storm. Now we've got a lot more assets up there in space that help us watch for these things. We've got things like the Space Weather Prediction Center that Noah runs. There's a space weather group at Natural Resources Canada that's keeping an eye on these things. So long winded answer, you don't need to worry about it because there are people that are definitely on top of this. Okay, So that makes me feel better. But yeah, do tell me a little bit about about what we have up there in orbit to monitor. I mean, I've heard of Soho, I've heard of a couple of other things, but what other one of the craft do we have up there to monitor? What's going on in the sun? So it kind of comes down to, to measurement techniques. It's really not that different from, you know, anything else in meteorology or a lot of other science. There's observation and then there's in-situ measurements. It's actually measuring the solar wind and its components as it passes that spacecraft. So we do monitor the sun from the ground using optical instruments and watch it for things like counts of sunspots. That's where these things happen. So we want to stay on top of that. And we do watch it with a couple of NASA assets, specifically Soho and Stereo, which are they're looking at the sun 100% of the time. Soho in particular is really interesting because it has a camera on board that creates what they call an artificial eclipse. It is covering up the brightest part of the sun at all times so that it can watch the atmosphere around the sun called the corona. And that's where we see things happen. That's where we see these coronal mass ejections as they occur. We see changes in magnetic fields around the sun. But the the instruments aboard the Solar Heliophysics Observatory are really, really important because they don't eclipse the sun. They are looking directly at it. And those are the ones that we really want to see, those kind of CME, those coronal mass ejections, because those look like they call them crown events, they call them Halo events because you see the circle of of influences this this ball of energy gets pushed out. And what you're seeing is it's coming right at us. Those are the really, really important ones. Those are the ones that are going to possibly impact Earth. This means they can happen anywhere on the sun. And keep in mind, this is all happening in three dimensions. So some of those CMEs might be directed directly up, not in Earth's path, but it's those ones that are directed directly at us that are a problem. So I mentioned some of those in situ measurements. There's really two instruments out there, two spacecraft that we use to to measure those things. One is ACE, and it is all about the solar wind. It's measuring various components of the solar wind, the the density of it, the temperature, the polarity, the polarity of the magnetism at that point can impact how deeply that energy is going to make it into that donut that we've been talking about. But the really important one is Discover, and that's a joint NASA's NOA mission. It's located out at L1. So there's a couple of Lagrange points. There are points of balance, really great place to put a spacecraft because it's the point of balance of gravity between the sun and the earth. L1 is where discovery is. It's between the earth and the sun. And we've also got the James Webb Space Telescope is one of the other points we can kind of think of these like buoys, buoys out in the ocean that are waiting for that solar wind to pass over. And until that solar wind and or CME or all those charged particles that the sun is spit out, wash over that that discover spacecraft, we really don't have a super good idea of what is about to hit us and can't really make really pinpoint predictions or descriptions of what that is made up of again, until it passes over that. So less than a day's warning is a way to look at it, too, because it's about a million miles out, which is not a whole lot when you're talking the the distance between the earth and the sun. Real quick, before I toss it to Matt, let him go. So if we can detect one on the sun, at least we see something's out there, then it has to pass the Lagrange point. And then we have the final warning. But what? How fast is the solar wind going when we have one of these CMEs? Is that I mean, it's not light speed. Obviously they vary. Yeah, it's a couple of days. I mean, what is the variance in these and the speeds of these things? The fastest ones can make it to earth in about 15 hours and the slower ones, four or five days. And that's part of of what is what's one of the components of the of the predictions, you know, based on what we're seeing during that event optically through Soho or Stereo or SDO. And Tony, you mentioned the word Eclipse. And immediately in my mind I'm thinking the next total solar eclipse next year, next April. You know, I happened to see the one in 2017. I got in the path of totality and it was absolutely incredible. It's one of those moments that I'll just never forget. It is literally one of those moments. You can't overstate it. It was truly amazing. And so I definitely want to check out the next one because I want to repeat that feeling in that moment of awe. So what can you tell us about next year's total solar eclipse? Well, I think that's a whole show right there. We should come back and talk about that because I've got some some some tips and tricks from folks that that go out to see every one of these because it is very dependent on the weather, on what kind of experience or what experience you're going to have at all. So we've got two coming up, actually, we've got one in October, and that is going to be an annular solar eclipse. It was just an annular eclipse a week or two ago that was visible down in Australia. And actually eclipses occur when the moon is just far enough away that it can't completely cover the sun. So you're left with a ring of fire around. That annular eclipse is going to run from Oregon down through Texas. And when you're thinking of will be April of 2024, that's going to run through Mexico, into Texas, go up through kind of the Ohio Valley and then out to the Canadian Maritimes. So we can have a whole long discussion about that. It is it is impossible to overstate how cool a total solar eclipse is. I totally agree with you there. And I think, yes, we're going to have to have a follow up episode as we get closer with lots of tips and tricks. Right. To take advantage of and maybe also how to deal with the traffic, because I would also mention the last one, it was incredible traffic, their early plan to stay late. That was really the only advice. So yeah, I think we have another episode as we get closer to that event. Joe, what do you have? Yeah, so it's not so much about eclipses, but I'll keep on on on the sun here. So I sort of we have an increase in solar activity and we'll continue to see that through 2025. What does that mean in terms of auroras or, you know, anything for Earth in general? We're probably going to see more auroras and farther south. Not only is there an increase in activity, the storms are getting more energetic, so they're punching further south into that donut, which makes them visible further south. So the event we saw a couple of weeks ago that was described as I forget on top of my head, I want to say it was 100 year event. You know how that works with floods. Just because it's 100 year event doesn't mean it's not going to happen for another hundred years. We're seeing these things happen more frequently. The sun runs on a 11 year cycle. It's called the solar cycle, and we see an ebb and flow of the number of CME as it's counted based on on sunspots. You know, we're seeing more sunspots than we expected for this point in the solar cycle. We're coming off of a solar minimum a couple of years ago, and it'll be a little while before we reach that solar maximum where we see the maximum number of sunspots across the surface of the sun. But, you know, like I say, it's outperforming. We're seeing more sunspots than than we expect. What that means in the big picture of things, that's for heliophysics just a whole lot smarter than me. And they are absolutely studying these things and seeing the papers come through fast and furious. It's something that's definitely worth keeping an eye on for many of the reasons that we've talked about today, the impact that space weather can have on us. Very cool. And then I think I got the last question here, so I want to circle back to what would happen if Earth didn't have this magnetic field and you were talking about Mars. And I'm wondering in regards to developing Mars, colonizing Mars, what can be done? Yeah, we don't talk about how much money it'll take, but what could be done to actually make Mars habitable in regards to not having any kind of real magnetic field? Yeah, I've seen a lot of proposals thrown out there. You know, everything from, you know, bringing the atmosphere with us to purposely creating a greenhouse effect by releasing a nuclear weapon and punching a bunch of dust up into the atmosphere. I think this is me speaking. I think the the thing that makes the most sense to me is probably going underground. It's probably using the soil itself as that tool for blocking the radiation. Now, standing here on Earth, everybody, you know, whether you're you're taking a flight to London or you're just working at home like all of us have done for the past, what seems like decade, we're getting the equivalent of a chest x ray about every 20 days. Now that's ten times more just on a normal air flight. If you ignore the space weather prediction centers warnings during one of these events and you do fly over the poles, that's 100 times. It's many, many, many times worse than that on the surface of Mars again, because of that lack of a magnetosphere. So protect the lack of an atmosphere is a problem unto itself. But that lack of a magnetosphere is something that's going to have to be addressed. There's know you just can't stay there very long without succumbing to some sort of radiation sickness. Very cool. I do not know that. I'll appreciate the info, Tony. Anything else? Anything else you wanted to share before we before we close up shop this week? So you mentioned the Space Weather Prediction Center. And I really encourage everybody to go out and take a look at that. It's it's WPC dot note, dot gov, the home page. You're going to see some of those letters that that Sean mentioned there. Your first click needs to be dashboards and the the one that is going to give you information about if you hear that there's Aurora coming, click on that Aurora dashboard and you'll see the maps that show the prediction. And it's this big green blob and it's the prediction over the next couple of hours of when Aurora might be seen. Note that red line there, the red line that is beneath that green blob that is your horizon line. You know, if you're above that red line and look to your northern horizon, you might be able to see it. Some of the other dashboards that are there that are worth looking at are the space weather enthusiasts. That's kind of got a bunch of of different readouts from some of these satellites we talked about. But click on some of the others Emergency management, aviation, electrical power, global positioning. This will give you an idea for how these things are being looked at and what the impact are to these these various areas. Now, what the electrical power dashboard is probably on the wall in that mission control and your local power company that I mentioned earlier. So it's a great resource. There's some media and resources. There's some videos that Noah has created that talk more about this and educate more about the different components of space weather. Tony, thanks so much, man. We're working people find you on on social media. And to learn more about about the stuff you do so I'm RTP. Hokie okay. Eii well, proud Virginia Tech alum where we're at very well. So I'm RTP hockey on Twitter. And you can also reach out to me through JPL, through the Solar System Ambassadors website there. And if there's any broadcast meteorologist listening, I love to get in touch with you guys and visit with you and try to get some of this information out so that you can spread it out to your communities as well. It is always good to to let people know what's up in the sky. That's kind of our mantra here as well. Tony, thanks so much for joining us. We are absolutely going to have you back in front of the 2020 for solar eclipse because I'm going to go see it. I just don't know where. Yes, Texas. That's what I'm thinking, because I don't want to be in a place that's going to be climate illogically cloudy. So that. Yes, sir, for sure. I thought we all said we were staying at Matt's mom's house in San Antonio. Yes. And we agree on that. Yeah. I might have to make a trip back home. We might have to clear out some extra space and make room for a few other people. Are we going to let Tony go? We'll be back with a few more closing thoughts on our Cisco podcast. Looking beyond the atmosphere, here's Tony Rice with your astronomy outlook. No Space Weather Prediction Center forecasted another moderate geomagnetic storm this past Sunday evening. You might have noticed that these tend to be coming a little more often, prompting to wonder what's going on. You know, it's a very natural upswing that we see every solar cycle. A solar cycle is an 11 year ebb and flow of activity on the sun. It's measured by a count of sunspots. Sunspots are cool spots on the sun's surface that all that energy coming out of the core must root around. And this creates some stress on the magnetic fields, causing filaments and prominences many times longer than the Earth is wide to either fall back onto the solar surface and be reabsorbed or sometimes break, causing coronal mass ejections or CMEs. The last solar minimum was in late 2020 when nary a sunspot was visible, ending solar cycle 24 and beginning the current solar cycle of 25. It's not a puff of white smoke that announces the next solar cycle, but a flip of the sun's magnetic fields. The sun's north and south poles switch. Over the next five years or so, activity increases until solar maximum is reached. Along the way, you'll see more coronal mass ejections, solar flares and all that other space weather that the WPC keeps an eye on. Though most of the spacecraft and methodologies used to drive those forecasts are relatively new. The technology to monitor those sunspots has been around a long time. And when you look across the 400 years of records that are available, there are cycles that appear within those cycles. Solar maximums have tended to get more maximum for a couple of solar cycles and then less so for a few more solar cycles. Interestingly, they also tend to vacillate between big solar maximums and then smaller solar maximums. Keep in mind that these are separated by 11 years. The patterns.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We're on the road to net zero by 2050, driven by multiple levels of government. But what about sustainable development of our natural resources, including clean energy? Is it possible to meet net-zero goals and secure a prosperous future? Natural Resources Canada thinks so, with initiatives to help provinces and territories reduce greenhouse gas emissions and support their economic priorities. Debbie Scharf, Assistant Deputy Minister at Natural Resources Canada, joins thinkenergy episode 111 to share how.   Related links   Debbie Scharf, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debbiescharf/  Natural Resources Canada: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/  Regional Energy and Resource Tables: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/climate-change/regional-energy-and-resource-tables/24356  Sustainable Jobs Plan: https://www.canada.ca/en/services/jobs/training/initiatives/sustainable-jobs/plan.html  2030 Emissions Reduction Plan: https://www.canada.ca/en/services/environment/weather/climatechange/climate-plan/climate-plan-overview/emissions-reduction-2030.html To subscribe using Apple Podcasts   To subscribe using Spotify   To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube   Check out our cool pics on Instagram   More to Learn on Facebook   Keep up with the Tweets on Twitter ------------- Transcipt: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is the think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. In Canada, the energy sector is going through a major transition. As a nation, Canada has set ambitious targets to reach net zero emissions by 2050, and has made a commitment to prioritize the environment and climate action. Multiple levels of government and government agencies play an integral role in Canada's Net Zero initiative. So who is developing policies and programs to promote the sustainable development of Canada's natural resources, including clean energy? Natural Resources Canada is at the forefront of Canada's movement, working on initiatives that empower provinces and territories to decide their economic priorities while reducing greenhouse gas emissions through regional priorities and projects that align with Canada's netzero goals. Recently, the Royal Bank of Canada stated that the electricity sector is netzero already, but notes that it will require doubling, maybe even tripling the electricity output that currently exists today. This requires not only addressing the technical and economic challenges of transitioning to clean energy, but also creating social and cultural change. So here is today's big question. Can Canada successfully achieve its netzero goals, while creating a sustainable and prosperous future for all Canadians? Joining me today is Debbie Scharf, Assistant Deputy Minister at Natural Resources Canada. In her role, Debbie is responsible for spearheading one of the Government of Canada's signature Energy Initiative, the transformation of regional energy systems through the regional energy and resources tables. She also oversees the sector's electricity resources branch, and the Energy Policy and International branch, both of which are integral to the Government of Canada central energy initiatives to realize a netzero future. Debbie, so great to have you join us today. Perhaps you can start by telling our listeners about Natural Resources Canada, better known as NRCan, and its objectives.   Debbie Scharf  02:54 Yeah. So Dan, thanks so much for inviting me here today, it's really great to talk a little bit about some of these issues with yourself and for your listeners. So NRCan is one of many federal departments. But our role specifically, is to work to improve the life of Canadians by ensuring our natural resources are developed sustainably, hence the name of our department. And we do this in ways for example, supporting climate change mitigation and advancing the net to zero transition using our natural resources to provide a source of jobs prosperity and opportunity for Canadians, of course, preserving our environment and those natural resources and respecting and engaging with indigenous peoples towards economic reconciliation. And so that really sums up very much the heart of what NRCan is about.   Dan Seguin  03:38 How is Natural Resources Canada integral to Canada's initiative to achieve a netzero future?   Debbie Scharf  03:46 Yeah, well, I'd say NRCan is pretty integral because 80% plus of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions comes from producing and using energy, and NRCan Canada's the department responsible for energy, at least federally. And so we play a very, very important role in the journey to get to net zero. And we try to use all of the tools that we have available as a department, which includes things like policies and regulations, funding programs, science partnerships, to help shape and accelerate that transition. And you know what, we're not just focused on emissions, we often talk about emissions when we talk about the net zero transition. But we also think a lot at NRCan, about how to create new economic opportunities that will create jobs for Canadians, good paying sustainable jobs, and to position Canadian businesses to be the supplier of choice for energy globally, and provide those energy services and security to the rest of the world. I just will say one thing and I said the point federally is because energy is a shared jurisdiction in this country, and that is pretty important. So as a department, part of an integral role of what we do is working collaboratively with our provincial and territorial counterparts and indigenous partners to do the work that we do and of course with a variety of stakeholders across the country.   Dan Seguin  04:58 Debbie now With respect to the environment and climate action, what is Canada already doing right?   Debbie Scharf  05:07 Well, I would say the one thing that is worth noting as a starting point is that over the past few decades, we've seen a decoupling of economic growth and GHG emissions. And I think that really speaks to the fact that there are things that are going right when it comes to energy and climate. There have been a number of technology improvements that we've seen regulations that have been implemented. And of course, although not under the purview of NRCan, a pollution carbon charge or tax that has been applied across the country, all of which have helped to tackle emissions and to help get them on a different trajectory. And so I do think that we're on the right track, I do, if you don't mind, highlight three kinds of sets of things that we're doing when we talk about, are we doing things right, and the first one is putting in place a plan. Now, the Government of Canada put in place a series of climate plans, but most recently, the emissions reductions plan in 2022. Because if you don't have a roadmap, to know where you want to go, and how you're going to get there, how are you going to know if you're achieving success, and you're doing the right things? So I think putting in place a really solid plan that gives us that roadmap has been something we're doing right. The other important thing is getting the right investment? How do you attract investment into the sorts of industries and technologies that we need to see Canada prosper as we move to net zero. And the most recent federal budget with a number of tax credits, which I'm sure we'll get into over the course of our chat, is an area where we're sort of moving the bar around Investment Attraction and collaboration. As I said, before shared jurisdiction, we are not doing anything in this country, when it comes to climate and energy and less we are working in partnership with other jurisdictions and with a broad range of stakeholders, and of course, our indigenous partners.   Dan Seguin  06:41 Okay, now, you've taken a new and prominent role as the Assistant Deputy Minister for NRCan, can you tell us a bit more about your role?   Debbie Scharf  06:52 Yeah. And I feel very privileged to be in this role at NRCan and enjoying it very much. So in my particular role, I'm focused on transforming Canada's energy system, through policies, programs and regulatory solutions to try and get to that net zero economy, but very critically, while ensuring affordability, reliability, and security of energy. So it's a bit of a trifecta set of outcomes that we're driving towards, and how you bring all of that together is really at the heart of what my role is, and NRCan and I oversee a large variety of files. But just to highlight a few that may be interesting. First, I'm responsible for the electricity sector and nuclear fuel cycle issues. Within the federal family, we have our resource, regional energy and resource tables, which are new collaborative partnerships with provinces and territories. And I'm happy to talk a bit about that to advance economic opportunities. Of course, the recently launched sustainable jobs plan, very connected to how we transform our industries and create those jobs. And so we provide leadership around that we do some international work on equity, diversity and inclusion, because we want to build the right energy sector of the future. And we do things like just providing that core energy data to Canadians, like our energy Factbooks. So people can understand the energy sector in Canada. So those are all things that I do in my sector, amongst other things.   Dan Seguin  08:09 Great segue here. Okay. So you're spearheading the regional energy and resources table? What is their purpose specifically?   Debbie Scharf  08:18 So that's a great question. So the regional tables are a really different approach that the federal government is taking, and they're very focused on how do you drive economic benefit and economic prosperity in the context of transitioning to net zero? And when it comes to a country like Canada? And when it comes to energy? Where you live matters. A Quebecer is not facing the same type of issues as someone in Alberta, or British Columbia, or Prince Edward Island. And so energy is a very regional issue, the challenges that each region of the country will face in the transition is different. And frankly, the economic opportunities in each region of the country are also going to look a little bit different. And so the regional tables are really about how do we accelerate those economic opportunities on a jurisdiction or regional basis, understanding that these issues are going to be felt differently depending on where you live. And if I can quote Minister Wilkinson, just for one moment, although he's not subject to this podcast, it is, it is a very key comment. He talks about the need to be strategic, ambitious, and collaborative. And those are really the words that I would use to describe what underpins what we're trying to achieve with regional tables.   Dan Seguin  09:26 Can you help me better understand how the regional tables will empower provinces and territories to decide their economic priorities?   Debbie Scharf  09:36 Yeah, that's a great question. So the starting point for the regional tables, regardless of what jurisdiction we're talking to you, is to decide on a small number of priority areas where we think that as government's working with indigenous partners and stakeholders, we can accelerate and make demonstrable progress in the near term and into the future. So we can't do everything under the sun, but we find three or four priority sectors are priority areas where the province or the territory would like to partner with the federal government to accelerate progress. So that is really the starting point. And then the goal is as governments, how can we align our resources, our timelines, or decision making our regulatory processes to accelerate the development of those priority areas, i.e. those industries. And as governments, we have a tremendous ability to do that better, to be able to make that kind of progress. And so very tangibly, it's really about coming together and having discussions around, okay, if I'm British Columbia, and I want to build a hydrogen economy, what stands in the way of doing that? What would be our objectives around what we'd like to see happen in British Columbia? And what are the sorts of tangible actions we can take together to be able to accelerate that progress. And that is really step one, there's, there's more steps to the regional table, that there's very, that is very much step one, to be able to move these forward. And that's very much where we're focusing our efforts right now.   Dan Seguin  10:54 Okay, let's get just a bit in the weeds here. Debbie, can you tell our listeners more about who the participants are at the regional tables, besides the federal, provincial and territorial governments?   Debbie Scharf  11:06 Yeah. And so, you know, the theme of collaboration, I think, will be a thread throughout many of my answers, but collaboration isn't very there. And partnership, frankly, is a very important part of the regional tables. So, you know, you've heard me express that the starting point is this relationship between governments. The other incredibly important feature to the regional tables is a partnership with indigenous communities and partners in the jurisdiction. And you know, just like energy has a very different landscape across the country, the indigenous landscape is also very different depending on what part of the country you live in. And so we're designing very specific ways of partnering with indigenous organizations and communities in each province. So that, ultimately, we hope that we can have more of a trilateral type of discussion around how to accelerate these priorities. So that's another important feature of Who are these partners at the table. The other piece is, there's a number of stakeholder groups out there that have expertise, whether it be industry partnerships with Union and labor groups who are interested in understanding how we're going to build the jobs of the future, think tanks that are really considering so many long term challenges in this space. So universities, there's a large range of stakeholders that want to be able to participate in this process. And we're finding ways to do that as well. Because at the end of the day, we want to understand how to accelerate change. And we need to have all those perspectives brought to bear. And so we're designing that type of input and partnership into the process as well.   Dan Seguin  12:27 Okay, moving on here. Maybe you can tell us how federal funding from existing sources can be directed towards top regional priorities and projects?   Debbie Scharf  12:38 Yeah, so this is a really important piece. Because if the idea is that through these discussions you've identified, what are your priorities, what are your objectives? And therefore, what are the types of projects that we need to advance in those jurisdictions, you could start to develop a pretty clear priority list around where you want to catalyze investment, and how public and private sector dollars can be brought to bear. And that is exactly sort of when we talk about how do we align our programming, it's really about these tables, being able to provide a sense of what are those priorities that we need to invest in? And then how can we bring the programs and the federal family to bear to help facilitate those program investments. And there are a number of programs that we have that exists within the federal government, whether it be the Strategic Innovation Fund Netzero Accelerator, the soon to be brought to fruition Canada Growth Fund, the infrastructure Bank, the Critical Mineral Strategy that had quite a bit of funding attached to it. So these are all areas that we're looking at to say, how do we match, you know, where public funding can support priority investments and the tables are servicing where those priorities are?   Dan Seguin  13:41 Debbie, can you expand on how the approach to net zero emissions and in nature, a positive future will be different across the country?   Debbie Scharf  13:51 So it's really interesting, I have another thread that you'll hear throughout the discussion around regional tables as the no one size fits all approach, or where you live matters type of idea. And so what we're finding is that there's a lot of consistency in the priorities that different jurisdictions across the country are interested in, in pursuing, but they look very different depending on where you live, I'll give you a very obvious example, if you want to talk about carbon capture and storage and you live in Alberta. That's a very different conversation than if you're in Newfoundland, and you have an industry, like an oil and gas industry that exists offshore, the type of conversation you're going to have will be very different in terms of what types of actions you have to take to move that type of technology solution forward. And the same thing could be said around, you know, fuel sources like hydrogen, if you live in Alberta, or Saskatchewan, you may produce hydrogen a bit differently than if you were in Quebec, or in Manitoba. And so it's very interesting to see how common priorities can find their expression very different depending on where you live.   Dan Seguin  14:54 In Canada, where do you see the biggest opportunities to reduce greenhouse gas emissions? Since in nature, and where do you see the biggest opportunities in technology?   Debbie Scharf  15:05 Yeah. Um, so I would be remiss if I didn't talk about carbon capture, and storage or carbon capture utilization and storage, CCS or CCUS. As a great example, for Canada, we have an enormous amount of natural advantages in space. And it is going to be a very important technology for Canada to be able to reduce emissions and think about those hard to abate sectors not only oil and gas, but concrete, steel, other types of industrial activities that need to capture emissions. And in Canada, we have wonderful geology, and we wonder about sort of natural strengths. And we have an amazing industry and investments have been made in this technology in years past, that really put us in an excellent position to take advantage of a technology like that. And in the vein of CCUS carbon capture as a concept is a very important opportunity area. And another example where you can capture carbon, but not necessarily through a technology is, for example, through our 2 billion trees program, where using nature to capture carbon is another very interesting way to be able to tackle this wall restoring nature and biodiversity and having a number of other positive impacts. So I'd say there's a lot to say for carbon capture technologies and a lot of reasons why it's a unique opportunity area for Canada.   Dan Seguin  16:21 Now, staying on this topic of net zero, which sectors are most likely to achieve Net Zero first?   Debbie Scharf  16:30 That's a very hard question, because it's going to be a tricky path, I think, for all sectors, because each one is going to have its own unique challenges to get to net zero. Typically, when I think about it, we talk a lot about reducing emissions in different sectors. I like to start by talking about the energy mix that actually underpins all sectors, and how do you get that energy next to be clean, reliable and affordable, because without that, you're not going to get any sector to actually adopt those clean energy sources. So it is we're starting with electricity where we've made significant headway and is probably the front runner in Canada as a sector in terms of reducing emissions with the phase out of unabated coal fired electricity generation happening in 2030. We're Canada's international leader, that sectors 83% clean and growing. And we have a commitment to get to net zero emissions in that sector by 2035. But what I will say is that's enormous progress and enormous progress that will be made going forward. And now we have to look at getting clean electricity to more people and more industries. And that will be a challenge in and of itself. And the other part of the energy system that's definitely worth attention and will be so important, are clean fuels like hydrogen, because we know that some industries and applications will not be able to use electricity or are going to need to use clean fuels. So I like to think about how do we get the energy system in the right place, have it reliable, affordable and clean, and then you have to get to adoption, and get each of the sectors to be able to adopt that. And you know, then you get into another set of challenges around technology and industrial processes, which will be a challenge. But you know, I would say electricity probably is coming up at the top.   Dan Seguin  18:06 How is NRCan enabling a clean energy future through electrification?   Debbie Scharf  18:13 Yeah, and I think electricity has made its way into your podcasts in the past. It's a very, very important topic. And that's because there are experts that have estimated that the electricity system may need to double, maybe even triple by the time 2050 comes around. And that is going to be an enormous challenge for Canada and nation building, frankly, a challenge for Canada. Think about railroads, the transmission lines of today are the railroads of the past to be able to get electricity to where it needs to get to. And that's one of the reasons why we have the regional tables where we're talking about electricity, infrastructure and investments there. And we're soon to launch the Canadian electricity Advisory Council, which was previously called the pan Canadian grid council to help help us through some of these challenges are that maybe what I will say is perhaps not NRCan, but the Government of Canada in terms of advancing electrification, I think it is worth just reiterating what was in our federal budget that was just announced a number of weeks ago, because there's some real game changers in there. For example, the introduction of a clean electricity tax credit, which is applicable to tax and non tax entities. And to not use jargon, that means you're not a private sector company, it's still okay, which means utilities can actually get access to these tax credits, which is an enormous leap forward for the application of these tax credits, which will help with the investments required in the electricity sector. There's also new and enhanced low cost financing that's being brought to bear with commitments around how the Canada Infrastructure Bank will be spending its money and the Canada Growth Fund. And then of course, the top up to NRCan programming to the tune of about $3 billion to help ensure critical projects get built. And even more important than having tax credits and strategic financing and targeted programs is that they're all going to work together and really come together in an integrated way to support investment. And I think that is a major leap forward in terms of thinking about how to catalyze investment in this sector.   Dan Seguin  20:04 Now, in your opinion, what are the biggest challenges and opportunities that you see?   Debbie Scharf  20:10 I almost feel like the challenge and the opportunity is the flip side of one another. Because huge challenge, we got to build out the system - a huge opportunity, we can build it out more flexibly, more reliably, we could bring more energy efficiency to bear which by the way, will be critical to not overbuilt the system, bring new technologies to bear - like smart grid technologies, and leverage new possibilities like vehicle to grid storage for electric vehicles. Talk about all those batteries that are going to be out there! All of those technologies are enormous opportunities. But the flip side is we need a lot of electricity. And we got to build that out. And what I would say is at the heart of the challenge, is how do you find the balance between having a clean system, an affordable system and a reliable system? And making decisions to build things out in a way that balances those three things, I think is the challenge on the opportunity   Dan Seguin  20:59 To accelerate success, what are the countries should Canada be looking to emulate or learn from?   Debbie Scharf  21:07 Yeah, that is a great point. Because we are not going to get to net zero without learning from partners and others around the world. And there are a few, I think, sort of really good models out there of other countries. And you really need to look to the ones that are tackling similar challenges that we have here in Canada to see what we can learn from them. For example, you know, there's an EU model around integrating regional electricity trade that can be really fascinating for Canada to learn from given that we have fragmented provincial jurisdictions with different market and regulatory structures. And we got to find a way to connect the system together for the collective good. And there are countries like Australia that have quite a similar type of structure to their economy, being the large energy producer, but also wanting to tackle climate and having sort of similar constitutional divisions of labour with their states. And in fact, believe it or not, Australia did something very similar to the regional energy and resource tables. It wasn't called that, but they were a model that we looked at before, before we landed the final design for that particular piece. So we do a lot of international engagement, bilaterally or multilaterally, because there's a lot to learn from others.   Dan Seguin  22:11 Debbie, is it possible to transition to a netzero future without economic hardships in a carbon heavy sector? Can you give an example on how to achieve this?   Debbie Scharf  22:23 Well, to quote another thing that someone wants once mentioned before is the best way to predict the future is to create it. So I think we have to very consciously think about the future we want to create, and how to diversify the industries that we have into new product lines, new clean energy opportunities, in the way that we think about the activities we're going to take going forward. But you know, one example that I think is worth picking up on is the work that we're doing on sustainable jobs in particular. Because this is an area that you can really get wrong, and talking about hardship is an area that you absolutely don't want to get wrong. And so really looking at where we want to see economic growth, and how do you support workers to be able to be ready for the type of opportunities that are going to be available in the future. And I would be remiss if I did not mention that we did publish a first interim Sustainable Jobs Plan earlier this year in February, and it talked about 10 key areas where we can make some demonstrable progress, and we already are making demonstrable progress to get the workforce ready for the future. And frankly, it will be a differentiator because you can't have economic activity without people working. And if you don't have the right labor market, there won't be investment decisions made by companies. And so I think that that is one area that we have to get right.   Dan Seguin  23:38 Now, the Royal Bank of Canada released the thought leadership piece last October. That said, the electricity industry is netzero already, but that we would need to double the electricity output that currently exists today. What are your thoughts on Canada's electricity sector, its readiness, and that assessment.   Debbie Scharf  23:59 So I already mentioned that Canada's grid is about 83% non emitting. Having said that, though, there are five provinces where there's still a significant reliance on unabated fossil fuels, provinces like Alberta, Saskatchewan, some Atlantic provinces, Ontario. And so again, where you live matters when it comes to energy, because when it comes to being Net Zero ready, it's going to feel a bit different in those provinces than if you were Quebec or British Columbia. And so we have to really focus on how to support the jurisdictions that need to get there and will be faced with the greatest challenges. And I cannot emphasize enough like the scale of the challenge. We tend to use the word generational quite a bit, perhaps we use it a bit too much. But it is very generational in nature, just in terms of its size and scope. And so, you know, once again, to just mention that we know as a federal government, we need to be a constructive partner in the Federation around these particular issues and to help those jurisdictions that need help to get to where they need to be and the tax measures in the budget are very good exams. boasts of how we do that providing long term stable, predictable investment climate, and frankly, helping to reduce costs, which means reducing ratepayer impacts around these particular projects in the jurisdictions that are going to feel it the most. So do I think that we have the technology to get there? I do. Does that mean that it's going to be easy for those provinces and jurisdictions that have a long way to go? No, it will not be easy.   Dan Seguin  25:25 Interesting. Is there a myth or misunderstanding about the energy transition or netzero, that you wish more people understood?   Debbie Scharf  25:36 This is a great question. So I'm going to answer it a little bit more from the perspective of what I worry about the most, when I think about the work that I do. And what I worry about the most is that we don't always appreciate that Canada is an energy producing nation. So we generate an enormous amount of wealth, security, and cheap energy from our energy sectors. And in turn, we are providing the world with energy security, not every country can say that. In fact, there's a fairly small number of countries around the globe that can say that. But it puts us in a bit of a tricky position, because we're producing a lot of energy for other people. And when we think about getting to net zero, that creates an interesting dynamic for Canada about how we get there. And I look at other countries like Europe, and it makes you realize that energy affordability and energy security is actually our battle to lose, because those are things we have today. But another country, there are countries, they're not things that they have. And we definitely don't want to end up in that particular situation. So we just have to think a little, I worry that people don't appreciate the challenge unique to Canada as an energy producer. And when we're thinking about the energy transition. And when we design our policies, we have to think not just about emission reductions, but how do we continue to generate that wealth, that prosperity and that security from the energy system? And we have to solve all those complex outcomes for Canadians. Otherwise, we're not going to get it right. And we're going to lose the battle.   Dan Seguin  27:02 Finally, Debbie, how do you make the fight against climate change equitable, and accessible for everyone to participate in? What's needed for all Canadians to buy into the net zero plan?   Debbie Scharf  27:16 So a couple of things that I would say about this. The first thing is, all levels of government have to cooperate, right? Like we've got to get, we've got to get the collaborations and partnerships, right to be able to create the enabling conditions to get to where we want to go. I would say that for Canadians, and my sense is, I would feel this, and I do feel this personally. So it is a very personal experience, I need to have a job, I need to put food on the table, I need to feel like I'm making the right choices. I need to feel like the government and the country are making the right choices. And so we just have to make sure that in all the things that we're doing, we're being mindful that these are outcomes that we need to be able to deliver for Canadians, and not only for the Canadians that are employed in the workforce, but for marginalized people, underrepresented groups, like how can we create a very inclusive Canada on the path to net zero. And I think if we can develop the vision and implement a vision for an inclusive, secure, affordable, and prosperous Canada, then we're going to get the buy-in that we need. And the trick is to be able to solve all those things really well.   Dan Seguin  28:20 Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?   Debbie Scharf  28:27 I am scared but I am ready.   Dan Seguin  28:32 Now, what are you reading right now?   Debbie Scharf  28:34 A historical fiction about World War Two.   Dan Seguin  28:36 Okay. What would you name your boat if you had one?   Debbie Scharf  28:40 Well, I am the eternal optimist. So I would name it Possibility.   Dan Seguin  28:45 Now Debbie, who is someone you truly admire?   Debbie Scharf  28:49 Easiest answer, my mother?   Dan Seguin  28:51 What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Debbie Scharf  28:56 And I would say watching my kids grow into adults.   Dan Seguin  29:01 What has been the biggest challenge to you personally since the pandemic began?   Debbie Scharf  29:08 Yeah, so the biggest challenge I would say is actually supporting my children who I think have borne the biggest brunt of pandemic choices in society. So I would say a real sort of personal experience around the pandemic.   Dan Seguin  29:22 Okay, we've been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or even show?   Debbie Scharf  29:29 Yeah, so right now, Firefly Lane and Night Agent, which shows my bizarre ability to move between romantic comedies and action options.   Dan Seguin  29:41 Lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?   Debbie Scharf  29:47 Oh, that's an easy question, because I am pretty excited about this industry right now. I think we are in the middle of the most difficult but exciting time in the energy transition. And I'm actually feeling pretty privileged to play a part of on behalf of all Canadians to try and get us there.   Dan Seguin  30:03 Well, Debbie, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you, how can they connect?   Debbie Scharf  30:16 Well, the easiest way to do that is to send an email Debbie Scharf, Assistant Deputy Minister of the Energy Systems Sector at Natural Resources Canada.   Dan Seguin  30:25 Thanks again for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.   Debbie Scharf  30:29 Thanks so much, Dan.   Dan Seguin  30:33 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

Governments around the world are working to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Consider Canada's goal to be net zero by 2050. With targets in place, businesses and organizations are tasked with understanding their own emissions and finding ways to limit them. But where to begin? What's the cost? On episode 110 of thinkenergy, Glenn Mooney, Manager of Energy Services for Envari Energy Solutions, shares the business case to operate a more sustainable (and competitive) business in the age of net zero targets. Related links Glenn Mooney, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/glenn-mooney-4656265/ Envari Energy Solutions: https://envari.com/ Envari Advisor Plus: https://envari.com/advisor-plus/ Envari Energy Dashboard: https://envari.com/envari-energy-dashboard/  To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod ----------- Dan Seguin  0:06   This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. The issue of climate change has resulted in a global mission by governments around the world to set targets in an effort to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. In response, businesses and organizations have been tasked with understanding their own emissions, and finding ways to reduce them. But where do businesses begin? Identifying all sources of emissions a business produces can be a daunting task, especially for large organizations with complex operations. Furthermore, collecting, measuring and analyzing data can be time consuming and challenging, especially if the data is dispersed across various systems and departments. It requires specialized equipment, and expertise plus, government regulations can be complex and ever changing, making it difficult for businesses and organizations to stay up to date with the latest requirements. Finally, there is an issue of cost where many businesses and organizations may struggle to justify the expense, especially if they operate in a highly competitive industry with narrow profit margins. How do they navigate what funding and rebates are available? So here is today's big question. How can businesses be informed about their own emissions, and get on track to become a more competitive and sustainable business in the age of net zero targets? Joining us today is Glen Mooney, manager of energy services for inquiry. Glen is responsible for business development, and programs for a variety of energy management and energy advisory services. Glenn, so great to have you join us today. Now, Glenn, perhaps you can start by telling our listeners about Envari and the type of programs and services the organization provides.   Glenn Mooney  2:43   Sure. Envari has been around since 2001. So we just celebrated our 20th anniversary last year, kind of the year before during COVID, so it wasn't much of a celebration. We formed... we've grown out of what was called Energy Ottawa, we've rebranded to Envari a few years back. So that's kind of the history of the organization, we've broken it into three practices, we have a lighting practice, an electrical practice and a buildings practice. And we provide pretty much anything to do with buildings, energy, not just electricity, but electricity, gas, water, Steam, carbon, anything that is a resource or an energy based element. We do on the building side. So I'm responsible for the building side and kind of anything that happens inside them. So we do a lot of systems design for building systems. We do a lot of engineering and audits and assessments and feasibility studies, a lot of green building initiatives. But the one thing we're probably best at is we do a lot of projects, we've probably done well over 1000 energy and sustainability projects from end to end - concept to commissioning, we call it so HVAC, and building automation, ultra efficient heat pumps. We've done a lot of work in that space lately, building automation and controls and doing some really interesting things on the control side, anything data, energy data, carbon data, doing tracking for our customers, and helping to support them with analyzing data and giving them tangible results out of what we find - distributed energy resources. So we've tried to create a business that fits in an area that wasn't serviced well. And I think that served us very well over time.   Dan Seguin  4:12   Cool. So Glen, what are some of the common challenges businesses face when trying to achieve their greenhouse gas emission targets? And how can you help them overcome these challenges?   Glenn Mooney  4:27   Yeah, I think the biggest thing is just where to start. This is a new world. It's a new world for all of us. It's a big shift, and they just need some help, some support. Where am I? How do I start? Where do I need to go? What kind of pathway probably an overused term but it fits for the purpose of chasing carbon. The big thing I guess we can help with is the expertise but just we've been through it, so end-to-end again, you need support right from the top. So you need support from your, your CEO level, your CFO level. That's the big challenge because the economics of this is a bit challenging. The asset management people, the operations people is just getting them engaged, get the stakeholders engaged because a lot of money is a big part of this. So it's it's managing that... managing it versus capital plans, those sorts of things. So like we as a company, or as a group of companies, we've kind of taken what our CEO calls a moonshot, we were trying to go to net zero by 2030. And it's going to be a challenge, but hey, we're going to do it.   Dan Seguin  5:23   Now. Glenn, can you help me better understand how you typically approach the analysis of the company's energy usage? And identify areas where improvements can be made?   Glenn Mooney  5:37   Yeah, we start with what we call it an energy balance, which kind of informs a carbon balance. So that's basically taking how much energy does the building use? How does it use it? How does that convert into carbon or your CO2 emissions, or your greenhouse gases, your footprint, whatever you want to call it, and then we start to break it down. There's a lot of intelligence we can get from information just being in some buildings, understanding how systems work and kind of break down that - how is natural gas used in a building? How is electricity used in the building? And then what can you do about the carbon sources like the natural gas? How do you kind of translate those into potential measures that can reduce that footprint, it's tough the grid, you'll never it's tough to get to a zero because the grid itself is not clean. So even just recently, the Ontario grid as they used to say it was 93% clean, it's now closer to 90, because we brought on a little bit more carbon generation for a while. There's some refurbishment is going on in the nuclear side of things. So it's a it's a bit of a challenge to get to zero, there are ways to do it. And that's the path that we try to find. It also kind of brings up as a whole hybrid one, do you still do want the gas meter off the building? Or are you willing to use gas in really tough times when it's an extremely cold day that maybe some of the other surfaces or sources can't totally get you all the heat that you need, say on a cold, cold winter day?   Dan Seguin  6:54   Okay, now, Glenn, maybe you can give an example of a successful energy efficiency project, Envari has implemented for a business that is helping them achieve their greenhouse gas emission targets?    Glenn Mooney  7:08   Sure.  I guess the one that comes to mind is kind of a large campus multi use multifunction looking at everything from solar to tons of carbon reduction efforts, looking at their fleet and electric vehicle charging, and the infrastructure that goes with it, the biggest thing with a lot of this new shift to less carbon is the impact on the electrical capacity of the facilities or their own network. And then also, how does it impact the utility, the local distribution company like Hydro Ottawa, because we're now asking for more electricity to support this. A lot is done in building automation systems. So we spend a lot of space there and probably more retro commissioning. The best thing to do is lower your load as low as you can first and then look at other ways of delivering the heating and the cooling to the building. So retro commissioning is one just let's let's minimize the load first, and then start from there. And then the HVAC systems, look at what alternatives are there to existing carbon consuming gas devices in a building. So that's where that hybrid discussion comes in. And it I emphasize that because it is a bit of a mind shift for people, they may want to... let's just get that meter off the building. As I said before, we really need to think that decision through because that's got a lot of impact economically, when you try to go build your business case for it. I think the biggest thing for them sorry, Dan, is just to really match it with your capital plans, let's not throw out good equipment right away. And that's a tendency to kind of model things that way. But let's look at... is that boiler due for replacement in say in 2032, or 33? Let's plan on that, unless you've got a more aggressive target. But let's try to match it up with how you're actually going to do your lifecycle of your equipment.   Dan Seguin  8:47   Now, what role does technology and innovation play in reducing greenhouse gas emissions for businesses? And how does Envari stay up to date with all of those latest technologies?   Glenn Mooney  9:01   So we've mentioned it earlier, we've probably built over 1000 projects. So we know what equipment is out there. We're always engaged with the industry, the manufacturing side and the vendor side to understand what's out there. But we also go beyond that. We've done quite a few pilots. We did one recently, for Natural Resources Canada, where we looked at cold climate heat pumps in real situations, we installed them in actual people's houses, and we monitored them, assessed them and figured out what the advantages were and what the economics of it were. And one of the big things that came out of it is just the improvement that's happened just even in the last three, four or five years to heat pump technologies. For example. We're seeing it more on the industrial side where we were seeing heat pumps right now that we can get 180 and 190 degree water out of temperatures that were never before able to be brought out of heat pumps. So those are big advances as a lot of technology and a lot of R&D going into those areas for different products. And I think we have to be also mindful of the fact that it's going to keep going. So to my example earlier of maybe changing a boiler out in 2020, or sorry, 2033, hard to keep track of time these days, we have to know that there's going to be better technologies then as well. So let's keep some hope for the future.   Dan Seguin  10:15   Okay. How do you ensure that businesses stay compliant with government regulations regarding greenhouse gas emissions?   Glenn Mooney  10:25   So we have a separate to practice that we we call Advisor Plus or I guess, a service where we actually help customers track their energy, track their carbon, advise them, when there's changes, advise them on how markets are going... is there any changes are there regulation changes carbon and commodity pricing of electricity and gas, other elements basically of commodity pricing, and just try to give them some good forecasting, we find that there's a lot of lot of tools out there available to everybody, there's so many sources of information, and we try to kind of bring it down to a simple one. And we provide that to them, rather than them having to go look for it.   Dan Seguin  11:04   Okay, I've got a follow up question here for you, Glen. How do you measure and track progress towards greenhouse emission reduction targets? And what metrics do you use?   Glenn Mooney  11:18   Yeah, and that's the tools part of it. So we have a couple of really great tools. One of them is a dashboard. And I think it's industry leadin, It brings in anything you want to bring into it, electricity, gas, water, steam, carbon, and it's got some really good artificial intelligence in it to A - help you run a facility and get some good insights into how your facility is running. But it's also that record that shows you how you're doing progress wise year over year, month over month, those sorts of things, the metrics we use, we tend to standardize on the federal metrics, because this is across Canada effort that's happening. So I will say Ener-Can probably the, they have a product called red screen that they use for their own modeling. So we tend to know that that will be updated as regular and we've decided as a company that that will be kind of our first level of metric as far as how greenhouse gases are calculated.   Dan Seguin  12:12   Okay, now, let's talk about affordability. How does a company balance the financial costs of implementing energy efficient projects, with the potential cost savings and environmental benefits.   Glenn Mooney  12:28   So there's a lot of grants and incentives and programs and offerings out there, keeping track of it is a challenge where they fit, where they don't fit, and how long the windows are open for, they come onto the market, and then they may be close. So there's limited time to maybe make application to some of these. So that's what we help our customers with is, here's what's available for your project. If there's an urgency to it, we get them through that quickly and get them applied and get them hopefully funded for these because these are not great business cases in a lot of times so those grants are essential to actually driving this forward. It's tough sometimes to make business cases these are these are the realities is natural gas is cheaper than electricity right now, our job is to try to find a way to make it more economically feasible to move to a less carbon intensive source. So that's a challenge. And I mentioned it earlier, getting to that CFO level, educating them on this type of business case, because it's not the simple energy efficiency, simple payback business case, there used to be this longer term play here with longer term implications. So it's getting everybody involved, it's getting shareholders to make a commitment, and then educating people from the top to the bottom.   Dan Seguin  13:36   Now, Glen, how do you educate and train businesses on best practices for reducing greenhouse gas emissions? And what role do employee engagement and behavioral change play in this process?   Glenn Mooney  13:51   Yeah, so it is getting that buy in from the top the shareholders and quite often, that's where it'll come from. It'll come from a shareholder statement. And then the rest of the organization needs to walk the talk. And the people at the top, the executive organization needs to actually walk that talk and show that they're serious about doing this, the CFO has to understand the economics of it and be prepared to support it, it's a lens to this. It's a very, these are very precious resources, and it's how they look at it, you've got to kind of create that lens that everything you do in your business needs to be focused on something like this, our kids will figure it out for us because they're going to tell us when we're offsides, that's what a lot of us are going to bring this, and hear from our own families... what are you guys doing in your business? So I think that's one of the neat pressures that probably gonna hold your feet to the fire on this one. So it's a challenge to get everybody to buy in. But I think good examples, and as we move down this path, I think we're gonna see more and more successes that are going to make it easier for the next company to pick it up and go with it.   Dan Seguin  14:45   Okay. How do you ensure that energy efficiency measures are sustainable, and can be maintained over the long term?   Glenn Mooney  14:56   That's the data part of it is tracking. We do a lot of data acquisition and data analysis with insights. But then we also do a lot of measurement and verification, because this is one of the things that will happen as people make commitments to reducing carbon, there's always going to be watchdogs out there watching to make sure that you've lived up to what you said you're going to live up to. So having that measurement and verification by, kind of an unbiased or an independent group, which we perform a lot for clients, I think is a big part of that, because your going to need to some point, put a stamp on it and say, yes, we saved this much carbon.   Dan Seguin  15:30   Finally, Glen, what advice do you have for businesses that are just starting to address their greenhouse gas emissions? And what are some of the most important steps they can take to achieve their targets?   Glenn Mooney  15:45   I'd say find a friend with knowledge we all do that. There's a tendency because it's new to try to solve the solution in house yourself and try to educate yourself and bring yourself up to speed. But I always believe in surrounding yourself with smart people and just reach out to the people that have already done it, we do the same, like we're not all knowing nobody knows all of this, I think we know a really good share of it. But we have some really smart partners around us that we'll often lean on to provide different components of it that we may not have in house, but we try to have the best minds in the industry around us to support us when we're dealing with customers.   Dan Seguin  16:19   Okay, Glenn. Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, sir. Are you ready?   Glenn Mooney  16:30   I am ready.   Dan Seguin  16:31   Okay, here we go. What are you reading right now?   Glenn Mooney  16:35   It's a book called bear town. It's about a fictitious hockey team. And I won't give it away. But in in another country, you don't really figure that out till halfway through the book. But I played a lot of hockey when I was younger. So I kind of relate to this. Good Book.   Dan Seguin  16:47   Glenn, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do.   Glenn Mooney  16:51   I do not have a boat. I spent a lot of time in my younger years around friends at race boats. I spent a lot of time in boat racing. And I guess the one that sticks in my head was a boat that was just physically a beautiful boat very fast. And it was called Color Me Gone and that's a name that always stuck with me is that was he lived up to his name?   Dan Seguin  17:09   Okay, who is someone that you admire?   Glenn Mooney  17:13   I'd have to go with my father - my parents are amazing people, but my father and my ex... or not my ex father in law. My father in law that just passed away a couple years ago, actually, during COVID. They were just very good people. And my father in law, the way he lived his life was just... be kind of people and that's one that I've always I saw the impact that it had around people. When he passed away there a couple years ago, he was just known as a very kind, gentle person.   Dan Seguin  17:40   Okay, next one here. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?   Glenn Mooney  17:46   I saw David Copperfield live actually at the NAC. And I can remember walking, I was going, I have no idea. It was cool. It was entertaining. But... and the other magic I've had in my life personally, is I was behind the net for the golden goal in Vancouver at the Olympics. So that's a that was a pretty magical moment in another way.   Dan Seguin  18:05   Okay. Glen, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Glenn Mooney  18:14   So one of one of the things I did and I'm, I guess a little bit different, and COVID... I actually lost weight. Because I was working at home, I was very dedicated. I needed to lose weight. So I went and did it. The struggle part of that is keeping it off. So kind of changed lifestyle, you creep back, you kind of make adjustments to go back. So I'm not sure I'm winning yet. But I'm trying hard.    Dan Seguin  18:32   Okay, now, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?   Glenn Mooney  18:41   So what I'm hooked on right now is called Loudermilk. I don't think it's Netflix. I think it's a it's a prime one. It's just funny, I just sorry. It's my type of humor. And I kind of relate to it. It's good. We just finished Daisy Jones in the six which I thought was good. Somebody said last week, I never clued into this, but it's kind of loosely based on the whole drama of Fleetwood Mac. So as so soon somebody said that, I was like okay, now I get it. So yeah, very good series.   Dan Seguin  19:05   Lastly, what's exciting you about the industry right now.   Glenn Mooney  19:10   So I've done this for... I did the math the other day, over 30 years that I've been in the energy type business. And I would say that this is just accelerated about 10 fold. We've done energy, this whole transition to climate change, carbon reduction, it's just foots all fully down on the on the accelerator for this. It's things are going to change so much in the next 20 years, probably far more than I've seen in 30 years before now. So I think that's pretty exciting. We have a lot of young engineers here that are just incredibly smart, but they've got a neat future ahead of them with this.    Dan Seguin  19:43   Well, Glenn, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think Energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you. How can they connect?   Glenn Mooney  19:59   Envari.com, we have a bunch of video stories of the kind of work we've done. And I would say that just go go take a look at our website, and we've done a really nice job of it and our comms people have done a great job at just trying to frame the work that we've done. So check it out. Envari.com.   Dan Seguin  20:14   Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.   Glenn Mooney  20:20   It was great. Thanks, Dan.   Dan Seguin  20:21   Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

  Canada is at the forefront of the global energy transition, leading with the goal to be net zero by 2050. To get there, the electricity sector must be decarbonized by 2035, from coast-to-coast, province-to-territory. So what does that transition look like close to home? How will customers be impacted in the near future? The Ontario Energy Board's Harneet Panesar, Chief Operating Officer, and Carolyn Calwell, Chief Corporate Services Officer & General Counsel, share their insight on thinkenergy episode 108.   Related links   Carolyn Calwell, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolyn-calwell-648318b0/ Harneet Panesar, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harneetp/ Ontario Energy Board: https://www.oeb.ca/ Engage with Us, OEB digital engagement platform: https://engagewithus.oeb.ca/ Energy Exchange: https://www.energy-exchange.net/ Adjudicative Modernization Committee: https://www.oeb.ca/stakeholder-engagement/stakeholder-engagement/adjudicative-modernization-committee   To subscribe using Apple Podcasts To subscribe using Spotify To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: YouTube Check out our cool pics on Instagram More to Learn on Facebook Keep up with the Tweets on Twitter --------- Transcript: Dan Seguin  00:06 This is ThinkEnerfy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. The world is going through a major energy transition driven by a multitude of reasons. political policy, economic prosperity, environmental urgency, social change, Greta Thornburg, technological advancements and innovation to name just a few. Canada is at the forefront of the energy transition movement and certainly seen as a leader on the world stage thanks to its aggressive target, to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. Of course, the country's other closer Net Zero target is the decarbonisation of the electricity sector by 2035. emissions free electricity grids in every province, and territories across Canada in just under 12 years. For many provinces and utilities, the race to transition their energy sectors began years ago, in Ontario, where the electricity grid is already more than 90% emissions free. This was in part due to the provincial shutdown of all coal plants between 2005 and 2014. It's no longer business as usual for energy providers, how we've operated for more than 100 years is neither viable nor sustainable. It's becoming clearer and clearer that for the Net Zero future to be reality, we must go further, still eliminating and remaining emissions from our provincial grid to make wait for the electrification of our grid, our vehicles and yes, our houses and buildings. But with all of the unknowns in our evolving energy future, there needs to be a steady hand to help guide the way forward. Enter the provincial regulator, the Ontario Energy Board, energy utilities are more closely regulated than many other industries because of their unique characteristic surrounding energy supply, and delivery. So here is today's big question. Given that the electrical grid needs to be emission free by 2035, what does the energy transition look like here at home in Ontario? What can customers expect in the near future? Today, my special guests are Carolyn Calwell, Chief Corporate Service Officer and General Counsel, and Harneet Panesar, Chief Operating Officer of the Ontario Energy Board. Welcome to the show, Carolyn. And perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourselves, your background, and why you chose to join the Ontario Energy Board.   Carolyn Calwell  03:39 Thanks, Dan. I'm a lawyer by training. I started off in private practice at a big firm and then I moved into the public sector, first at the municipal level and later at the provincial level. Shortly after I began working for the Ontario Provincial Government, I got into energy when that ministry merged with the one I was hired to. And that gave me the opportunity to work on the energy file in progressively senior legal positions, while also serving some other ministries. I eventually became an assistant deputy minister at the Ministry of Energy with a broad portfolio that touched on things like distribution, transmission, agency oversight, indigenous energy policy issues, all kinds of things, lots of fun with a lot of challenging files, and always with great people to work with. So then, when the restructuring of the EOEB came along, I got excited about where the OEB  was gonna go. On a personal level, I saw an opportunity to work on things from both policy and legal perspectives as the chief Corporate Services Officer and General Counsel. And I saw the chance to learn some new skills in the corporate services side of things. And I also saw an opportunity to learn the role of the regulator and get a new perspective on files I'd worked on. So most enticing though, was the opportunity to make some changes a lot like her nude, so I was thrilled by the opportunity to come over.   Harneet Panesar  04:54 Alright, thanks, Dan. So in terms of my background, maybe I'll open it up by saying you know, Today as we talk, I'm hoping to bring three different perspectives, and three different hats that I can wear. And the first one is that a utility, you know, I've spent about 14 years working for Hydro oOne, which is Ontario's largest transmission and distribution company. And I did nine different roles across the organization. And most recently, just before I left, I was Director of Strategy and Integrated Planning. My team looked after the investment plan, the overall capital that the utility was looking to spend, I had the strategy Research and Development Innovation team. And I also had a team that focused on reliability, which is a very important outcome for utility. So we focused on metrics benchmarking studies, and I had a really cool team. I'm an engineer by background. So I find this fascinating, I had a team that did post event investigations. So when equipment fields, we bring in massive cranes, pull them out, and dissect them to see what went wrong, and try and see if there's any systematic issues that we could look to solve across the system. I also had a team that looked after the modernization of the joint use portfolio, which is the use of the poles that are looking to attach other things aside from electricity, infrastructure, it could be things like fiber and telecommunication things or other things that, you know, cities and municipalities might want to attach to poles. And lastly, we also looked after secondary land use for hydro and corridors and pathways for things like parking, lots, parks, pathways, things like that. In June of 2021, I got a phone call about the opportunity at the Ontario Energy Board to join as Chief Operating Officer. And really, it was about modernizing the regulators. And the value proposition of that was huge. And it was just something I can see, it was exciting to know that that was taking place with someone who's in industry. And I saw some of the work that Susanna was doing. And so it was a no brainer. It was something that I wanted to do. And so I joined the Ontario Energy Board June of 2021. And so I'll bring the regulator perspective, obviously, in the conversation. And the third perspective is that of academia, I've been teaching energy, energy innovation, energy storage courses to Master's students, at the university level. And I think it's important when we talk about energy, we look across borders, we don't just get confined with current practices or policies or rules and regulations. Sometimes when we're trying to explore innovative ideas, we need to broaden that scope. And so I'll look to sometimes also bring in some of the academic view of what's happening in this space, too. So those are sort of three perspectives and from our background.   Dan Seguin  07:22 So, Carolyn, for those that don't know, what is the Ontario Energy Board, and what does your organization do?   Carolyn Calwell  07:33 the Ontario Energy Board, or the OE B is the independent regulator of Ontario's electricity and natural gas sectors. An important part of our mandate is to inform consumers and protect their interests with respect to prices, reliability, and quality of electricity and natural gas services. We have oversight over roughly 60% of the electricity bill, and we influence a large part of natural gas bills. We work closely with companies that work in the sector, distributors, transmitters, generators, and with associations like the Ontario Energy Association, the Electricity Distributors Association, CHEC. And of course, with the Independent Electricity System Operator and the Ministry of Energy, we're really just one piece of a much bigger puzzle.   Dan Seguin  08:13 Harneet, there's been a lot of discussion lately about the energy transition in our industry. What does that mean? Exactly? And how will the Ontario Energy Board support the transition?   Harneet Panesar  08:31 Sure, and maybe I can begin this one by even just focusing on the word energy transition, you know, it sounds nice and clear, cotton sounds like there's a linear glide path to this transition, that's going to happen. But you know, it's multifaceted. It's very complex, huge capital dollars are going to be required, it's gonna be a need for a lot of collaboration and how we move forward on it. So it's a very complex transition that's underway right now. And let me also talk to you about it. From what are some of the drivers, you know, a lot of times we talk about transition, we talk about the innovation behind it. And we also focus on what are the catalysts behind some of this change? And we often frame our conversation using four D's and I know in the industry, there's a debate whether there's three days or five, I think we've taken middle ground here, so let's go with our four D's. So the first one is Decarbonisation. You know, as you look globally, or you look federally you look even down to the consumer level, there are commitments being made and choices that are deliberately being made with regards to emissions and and a goal and targets that are being said with regards to decarbonisation. One of the sectors that I know that's going to be really impacted by this is transportation. They have the ability to make some significant changes in terms of the release of greenhouse gasses, and we're seeing a massive shift from combustion engines to EVs (electric vehicles). And so what does that mean? That means a huge need for electricity to also feed these. And maybe I'll also just take a pause and say that, you know, when I talk to other jurisdictions in Ontario, we're quite fortunate, a lot of our generation here is non-emitting, about over 90% of our generation is not emitting. And sometimes we take that for granted, you know, I talked to some of our colleagues down south, or even across the country, they can only dream to get to where we're at in the near future. We're pretty lucky to be where we are from that perspective. And so when we look at what we need to fuel these vehicles, we're going to need a grid that has the ability to supply this type of demand. So what is the EOB doing about it? There's a couple of things. The first one is we've got a couple of industry working groups that are really helping to lead the charge on making clear decisions on what is the process, you do some of this stuff. One of them is the DER connection review workgroup. And I'm excited to say that, you know, we've, we've broken up this work into tranches, and we've made some substantive releases already on changes that we've proposed to our distribution system code. These are really there to help reduce burdens, and, and really help bring on adoption of things like EVs. And I should also back up and just say, you know, when I talk about DER connections, DER stands for Distributed Energy Resources and EVs fall within that category, too. We also know that the grid will need to be able to supply this power, we have a working group called the Regional Planning Working Group that is focused on making sure that regions have what they need to be able to supply this type of energy. And that includes providing them guidance with what they need to look at when it comes to planning for that future. And how do we fill that all in? Well, we also updated our filing requirements. And so our filing requirements are really there to articulate to applicants that come forward to the Ontario Energy Board with their applications to say, look, this is what we need from you. And we've been pretty clear that we've updated our requirements to include things like electric vehicle integration, adoption, into their load forecasting and planning, we need to make sure that utilities are putting the building for the load that's required, based on the Evie adoption in the province. The next D is Digitalization. No, back in the day, our distribution system was just poles and wires, and maybe some fuses. But it's become a lot more complicated. We've deployed a lot more grid modernization in the system, a lot more innovation, and a lot more non-wires, alternatives, and different ways of investing in solving problems that the grid was having. And so what role does the Ontario Energy Board have in that? Well, number one, prudency is something that we expect utilities to take into account when they're building out their investment plans. So we're to check for prudency and make sure that the liability service quality and cost is all kept in mind. The other aspect is, you know, as we digitize the system, there are other risks that come with it, and we need to make sure we're managing them. There are new risk factors that get created from a cybersecurity perspective. And obviously, the Ontario Energy Board plays an important role. You know, we established the Cybersecurity Advisory Committee a number of years back that helped build Ontario's cybersecurity framework, which is something we expect utilities to look at, and also report annually on how they are ready and mature to respond to detect and deal with cybersecurity threats. The last two days, and maybe I'll just kind of shorten this by bringing them together. It's around decentralization and democratization. But the role of consumers is changing. And the investments and the choices that they're making are also changing. You know, the fact that you can go to a shopping mall and go pick up an Eevee, and maybe even a battery pack. These are, by definition, consumer products. Now, they're no longer utility grade investments, like Pull Top investments, switch gears, things like that, the role that they're playing is important. And so going back to our DER. Working Group, it's important that we make sure that we look at the integration of these types of consumer choices into our grid. So that's, that's maybe a roundabout way of looking at all of our structures and the innovation that's taking place and the catalysts that are fueling the energy transition there.   Dan Seguin  13:53 Carolyn, I'd like to hear your thoughts on what you believe is driving the energy transition.   Carolyn Calwell  14:00 Thanks, Dan. I see this largely the same way Harneet sees it, but I would say it maybe a little bit differently. I agree that the four Ds are the catalyst for the energy transition decarbonisation and the move to net zero emissions, the need to deal with and respond to climate change. Digitalization in my mind reflects the growing internet of things and the need for new tools and technologies that allow us to use energy differently. We've talked about decentralization and Harneet mentioned the move away from grid scale, utility planning to decentralized resources, whatever technology or weather wherever they may sit on this system. And her need also mentioned democratization about the changing expectations of customers and their relationship with energy. And in my mind, that just leads to increasing customer choice. So, you know, I think there's tremendous opportunity in all of this, and of course, tremendous challenge. But I think what's exciting is that there's broad consensus that this is a time of extreme change, and there's an imperative to actually make that change. So at the end of the day, it's pretty exciting.   Dan Seguin  15:05 Okay, our need, what does the electric future look like from an industry perspective, and from a customer perspective?   Harneet Panesar  15:15 So let me first look at the customer perspective. And maybe even the term customer, I think, is looking to evolve. As we look at energy markets around the world, we know that consumer choices and how consumers interact with their energy is changing. And even the role of consumers is changing. You know, the term prosumer is also one that is often used in which consumers aren't just consuming power, but they're producing them. And so therefore, the Pro and the prosumer. You know, that's an important aspect of how the grid may evolve. And we're certainly seeing changes in perspective, talked about decarbonisation, just a few minutes ago, that will also create a higher dependency of reliable power while managing costs. So you know, going back to our discussion around EVs, you know, nowadays, if there are reliability issues, utilities will get phone calls. And you know, that hear about power, power off situations where the lights aren't working, or ice cream is melting, or the air conditioner just isn't going. But just imagine the dependency that gets created when you know, I've got to go to work the next morning, and I couldn't go because I couldn't charge my vehicle, you know, the dependency on the grid is gonna grow. But I think there are a lot of opportunities in this type of environment. Also, you know, if Carolyn, for example, is working from home and doesn't need her vehicle, well, maybe I can take 20% of her battery, and then perhaps you're on vacation, and maybe you don't need part of your vehicle, I could maybe take 30% of your battery, you know, I've got 50% of the charge. And now I've got an opportunity to actually use my vehicle. The shifting of how sort of load and suppliers is going to be looked at on the distribution side, I think is exciting. We're seeing a lot of these micro grids around the world interact on these sort of transactive markets. But at the end of the day, you know, the value proposition for consumers is shifting look, I've now got a vehicle that has charge and lets me get to where I need to go. And both you and Carolyn have now gotten some dollars in your pockets for helping me out by supplying some of the energy that you didn't need. This is a real shift. I think that's happening from the consumer perspective and multiple different facets. From the industry perspective, I think we're going to need a lot of help and dependencies on industry to help guide us through this energy transition, you know, there's a lot of capital that is going to need to be spent, there's going to be a lot of steel that's going to be required for Transformers or pole tops, and, and even steel towers and conductors, there's a lot that's going to be required from a supply chain perspective. But there's also growth, I mean, this is an opportunity, there's a lot of growth that's going to take place in the economy for jobs. And we also know that there's gonna be industry in terms of labor markets, to be able to help supply and build the infrastructure that we're going to need for the future. And that includes maybe in adapting some of the skill sets. And I've been speaking to colleges and universities over the last year, and they've been asking, you know: what does the energy industry need in terms of the skills or the shortages? Is there an evolution of the skills that are required, and with all the transition and change that are taking place? I think the labor markets are also important to us to make sure that they're up to speed with helping us get to where we need to be. I think the last aspect maybe I'll cover off in terms of the industry is, I think there's a lot of new players that are entering the energy market, which we haven't seen traditionally, in the past. I've talked about automotive manufacturers moving away from combustion engines to electric vehicles. I think they're going even further by opening up subsidiaries focusing on energy. It's a pretty bold move for the automotive industry to be forming these massive subsidiaries. But even on the technology side, you know, we're seeing companies like Microsoft take stronger and larger positions within energy. So I think we're seeing a shift. And even in industry, I think we're seeing a lot of new players that are joining in.   Dan Seguin  18:52 Okay, so what's the greatest risk to the electricity grid, Harneet?   Harneet Panesar  18:57 So when I think about risk, and you know, I often reflect on that word, because I think when you look at risk, it usually is a reason for why adoption of things like innovation just gets repeated. And even in the energy industry, we've got a wide variety of entities that have different risk appetites. And some of them, you know, stakeholders, shareholders, customers may not be looking to them to take the greatest risk. But what we do know is that there are entities that thrive on the risk reward model. And I think it's important that we look at risk blending, we talk about risk. And why do I bring this all up? The need for collaboration is so important when we talk about moving forward in this transition. You know, in Ontario, I'd say we've got the most complex energy market in North America. I've got 800 Almost licensed entities, and I've got 60 local distribution companies fairly complex that's on the electricity. And we've also got gas distributors. It's fairly complex. So in terms of what is the one of the greatest risks I think alignment and how we move forward. The risk in this would be misalignment. You know, there's no room to backpedal, we need to collaborate and work together and make sure that there's no room to backpedal, and that we move forward collaboratively. So misalignment, I think, could be a risk, but we're making sure we're doing whatever we can. And I know there's various entities within the energy sector that are trying to make sure we're working together, you know, we're holding hands and might be taking penguin steps to make sure we don't slip here. But I think when you hold hands, we'll get a bit more firmness. And we can take bigger, bigger steps forward.   Dan Seguin  20:33 Harneet, what kinds of major investments and other considerations need to be made to deliver the energy transition to the province?   Harneet Panesar  20:43 So when I look at some of the studies that have just recently passed, the IESO released their Pathway studies. And we know that when they looked at generation and transmission, it's gonna require hundreds of billions of dollars, some fairly substantial investments on that front, the other side to this whole thing, and going back to the sort of consumer side is, you know, the tail end of the delivery of power is also going to require a huge influx of dollars. So the distribution system is going to require a lot, I will say that, you know, within our province, you know, we've got a lot of aging infrastructure that we also need to deal with. So it's not just about the forward move around the energy transition, but we also need to look at the assets that we have, the age of them, the condition of them, and really make sure that as we're spending the money, we're still holding things up. While we're also moving forward. You know, there's a lot of advancements in the system, in terms of the dollars that we've spent on the distribution system, primarily, I'd say, on deployment of capital open fields. But we're also seeing a lot of shifts on how some of that technology is now being utilized out into distribution systems. I know that, you know, we talked about dependency on the system. The minister has also asked us as part of his letter of direction to us to help provide recommendations going forward on resiliency and responsiveness and cost efficiency. And I think that's an important consideration that we need to look at when we build out capital plans and look at how we're going to build out the future. Extreme weather events are impacting our grid and energy system, the infrastructure, so the energy systems are vulnerable to that. And we need to make sure that we're resilient and we're able to respond to things like that. And lastly, you know, the other aspect around a lot of the investments that we just talked about, again, is around cybersecurity and the importance of making sure that we're ready for any of those types of issues too.   Dan Seguin  22:28 Carolyn, I read that the Ontario Energy Board's new legislated mandate is to facilitate innovation in the energy sector. How will you do that?   Carolyn Calwell  22:41 A mandate to facilitate innovation with regard to electricity was added to our legislative objectives in 2020. And this put innovation squarely in the mix for us. I thought it signaled to the energy sector a need to take new approaches to doing business, and to think about the services they provide to customers. And it signaled to the OEB that we also need to think about new approaches and new ways to do business. And so we've tried to do that through programs like our innovation sandbox, where we've encouraged local distribution companies to come to us with ideas about how they want to make change, and to test those ideas out in a safe regulatory environment where we can talk through the barriers and hurdles that they face or that they perceive to see what what really stands in their way. We've tried to do this through work like ours in our framework for energy innovation, where we asked the sector to come together to talk about distributed energy resources and how we go about dealing with the questions that they pose. What does it mean for utilities to use them? What barriers are there? So we've tried to take new approaches to having conversations about different types of innovation, and to encourage others to come to us to talk about these things. The change to our objective occurred at the same time as a restructuring of the governance of the OEB. And I think that really underscored for us our change mandate. But when we talk about innovation, our Chief Commissioner would remind me, very wisely Anderson, that our objective has always existed in balance. So innovation is never our only driver. It's one of several others, which include informing consumers and protecting their interests, promoting economic efficiency and cost effectiveness across the sector, and promoting electricity conservation and demand management. So there's a lot going on for us and for everyone in the sector in addition to innovation.   Dan Seguin  24:36 Okay, now, let's talk about the Innovation Task Force. With the report now released, where does it all go from here? Can regulation and innovation coexist and even flourish?   Carolyn Calwell  24:53 I think regulation and innovation have to coexist. We've been talking about change a lot this afternoon. I I don't think we have any choice. But to innovate. Our innovation task force was about strategy and governance, and this was an initiative by our board of directors to ask about disruptive change in the sector and its implications. And to make sure that the OEB was positioned to prepare for that change. The work involved jurisdictional scanning, looking at broad disruptive technologies and trends across the globe, and to look at what other regulators were doing about it. And that certainly provided inspiration for us. And at the same time, we curated experts working at global national and provincial levels to help us understand disruption in the sector, what they were seeing and what they were working on. So all of that informed the strategy that our Innovation Task Force adopted. And what we're trying to do with that is now map out what the OEB is doing about the energy transition. We've got a lot of projects and go and a lot of things that touch the energy transition, but don't necessarily do that directly. People need to understand how those fit together, and how they actually get at the big policy question of the day. What are we doing about climate change and about the energy transition? So what we've tried to do through our engagement with our website is map out the different projects, how they come together, and what people can expect about where they're going. If listeners haven't checked it out, I really encourage you to look at the OED "Engage with us" web page and see all that we have going on and what the next steps are across these projects. There's no shortage of work here. And we're asking a lot of people to come together to meet with us and try to make it work.   Dan Seguin  26:33 Harneet, on the topic of electric vehicles (EVs), what about supporting mass EV adoption? What can you tell us about the proposed ultra low overnight price plan for electricity? And how will it help get more EVs on the road?   Harneet Panesar  26:52 Sure. Thanks, Dan. And when we look at things like ultra low overnight price plans, I think it's also important for us to reflect on the fact that I think I'm sure he's made some good choices in terms of deploying the right capital. Over the years, you know, we sometimes take for granted that we have what is known as AMI, which is Advanced Meter Infrastructure. The fact that we have smart meters deployed across the province, is huge, because it enables us to do things like these price plans. You know, I talked about other jurisdictions, not everyone has smart meters like we do, and therefore don't have the ability to actually even implement price plans. But let me tell you why it's important and why having some of these plans is helpful. Utilities often build to meet peak demand, whenever the demand is there, they're trying to make sure that they have the infrastructure required to meet it. And by introducing pricing plans, which create the right incentives and choices that can help leave to sort of behavioral changes from a consumer perspective, that will ultimately also help utilities manage how they build their system. And what that means is they'll be able to not just build the peak but better manage peaks. You know, if we're able to utilize the system when it's not at peak or it's not fully utilized, there's available capacity generation available. There's no bottlenecks in the system. That's when we want people to use power. And so generally, you know, overnight is when the system is a little bit quieter, and we're able to actually, you know, supply a lot more power. And so for folks like myself, who have an electric vehicle, you know, I have no problems charging overnight. In fact, it's fantastic. And having the right incentives to keep people charging overnight means that we take any additional peaks on the system during the day that might occur away. And ultimately, that also means that it helps keep rates lower, because utilities don't need to invest additional capacity, because they're better able to manage when people are consuming their power. So price plans like the ultra low overnight plan is one way of curbing the behavior and incentivizing sort of the right approach on when we want people to be using the grid to feed things like their electric vehicles.   Dan Seguin  29:03 Okay, now, how does natural gas fit into the energy transition to a carbon free future in the province? What strides are being made in the natural gas sector or Harneet?   Harneet Panesar  29:18 So I think it's an important question. And it's something that we think about quite often at the Ontario Energy Board. You know, natural gas has a lot of potential to replace some of the higher emitting fossil fuel energy sources that are still being used for mostly industrial processes here in Ontario. And to maybe give you an example, you know, one of our natural gas distributors is working with steel mills, to try and replace some of their coal usage with natural gas, which would also bring down some of their greenhouse gas emissions. But you know, when you talk about Net Zero and sort of the net zero future, it's obviously going to involve things like large reductions and even eventually eliminating the GHG emissions from the US to greenhouse gasses, and that's gonna require a couple of things. It's gonna require a combination of energy conservation, some electrification, carbon capture and storage, and even a shift to use things like orangey, which is renewable natural gas, and even other new fuels like hydrogen. There's already work that's underway. Enbridge has been investing about $120 million a year. And this is really around some of the conservation programs. And we also just had a recent decision that the will be rendered. And in that we're going to increase the amounts that are going to be spent. And this is also going to include a new home energy efficiency program that's going to be offered by Enbridge gas, and it's going to be in partnership with Enercon, which is Natural Resources Canada, you know, thinking about what are the next steps, the OEB has also convened a group of experts to help identify and evaluate future opportunities for natural gas conservation. And really, finally, I just want to make sure, I know, acknowledge that, you know, millions of residential, commercial industrial consumers, we've got three and a half million gas consumers who depend on natural gas to heat their homes and run their businesses. And the OEB is going to continue to support these consumers by ensuring natural gas is delivered to them safely, reliably and responsibly.   Dan Seguin  31:14 Okay, again, this one's for you Harneet. Ontario is Canada's most populated province, can you tell us a bit about how you ensure Ontarian voices are heard, and included in your decision making?   Harneet Panesar  31:30 Yeah, so we've got 5 million electricity consumers I just mentioned, we've got three and a half natural gas consumers. So we've got a fairly large consumer base. And it's really important that we hear what Ontarians have to say. And so we've done a couple of things. And let me run you through them. The first one Carolyn, alluded to earlier, which was around making sure people could engage with us, we actually opened up a new platform and launched it, and it's called engage with us. And if you ever wanted to join it, just Google, we'd be engaged with us. And it really lays out all the various initiatives and work streams and programs that the Ontario Energy Board is undertaking. It gives timelines, it has documents, it even has a friendly smile of some of our staff that are helping lead the work along with their emails, so you can contact and reach out to us, it's one way of us making sure that we're transparent about all the work we're doing. And we're engaging with tumors, and taking in any input that they may have. So that's one way the other, the other piece that I think is really important is listening to the customers themselves. About a year ago, just shortly after I joined the Ontario Energy Board, I started a program called voice of the customer. And it was an important program for me, because one of the one of the teams that I have within my shop is responsible for the call center, they take in the calls, the emails, and the chats. And it's one thing to see all that data on a dashboard, or you know, in a PowerPoint slide deck, it's another thing to actually get on the horn and actually hear the voices of consumers, understand their sentiment, hear the emotion, hear their voices. And it was really important for me to be able to do that. And so we set up this program, and it's a monthly occurrence in which myself and my peers, the executive team, we get on the call, and we hear the voice of the customers, we hear what they're saying to us. And so that's one other way that we connect with our consumers. The other thing I'll note is that, you know, our adjudication process is a public process. And, you know, we look forward to having Ontarians participate in that we do also have consumer interest groups, part of that. But we also look to utilities to make sure that as they're building out their plans, that they're engaging with consumers, they also have a role to engage with them and make sure that they're delivering what consumers want. I'll also just put in a bit of a plug that, you know, I talked a little bit about our call center that handles the calls and emails and chats, we get almost 10,000 interactions. And these are really important data points for us. And you know, I created a part of the organization about a year ago called Operation Decision Support, to really help us make data driven decisions. And so collecting information from our calls is very vital. But the point I want to make is that we also have a chat function, which also won an award about a year, year and a half ago. And it's not fed by robots. It's actually the same agents that would also pick up your calls and also respond to emails. So the message you get is very aligned and consistent. We're very proud of, you know, our ways of being able to communicate with our consumers.   Harneet Panesar  34:19 Okay, now it's your turn, Carolyn, let's talk about the OEB's two stakeholder committees. What are the energy exchange and adjudication of the modernization committee all about?   Carolyn Calwell  34:34 Our stakeholders are critical to us. And so we've made some deliberate efforts to create structures to engage them. Energy Exchange is a form of CEOs and senior leaders. And it's really a tremendous platform where we receive advice about our priorities and direction. We've tried to use that forum, not just to talk to people but to hear from and to engage them on questions. Is that we're struggling with? What should we focus on? How should we go about our work? What matters to them, because it's important that the regulator, not just tell everybody what to do, but also listen to the sector that we work in. So this advice has been really critical for us. And it's really helped us on work, for instance, around the letter of direction that we received from the minister, as we've tried to figure out how to unpack that letter, to figure out what the priorities are within it, and how to actually deliver against it. The adjudication modernization committee is made up of regulatory experts, and they give us advice and provide feedback on all things that you indicate from rules of practice and procedure and filing requirements, to advice about intervenors. This has a specific focus to consider best practices and approaches to adjudication. And what's particularly helpful I think about this group is that they have a direct line with the Chief Commissioner. So it's a way for her to talk to stakeholders, and hear about what matters to them on what happens in the hearing room, and everything that goes around. So these are just two examples of how we engage with our stakeholders. But we value tremendously the various working groups, forums, meetings that we call that people participate in, because we know we ask a lot of people we know we demand a lot of their time and a lot of their thinking. But this is all part of the communication that we need on the two way street, so to speak. And, and we really do value everything that people give us in these various forms.   Dan Seguin  36:31 SoI'll ask you both. What is Ontario doing right, right now, that gives you hope, either provincially, or from the energy sector itself?   Carolyn Calwell  36:47 I'll jump in on though, you know, we've spent the afternoon talking about some of the challenges that the energy sector faces and that, you know, that really society faces. And these are big, big challenges, daunting tasks ahead of us. But what gives me hope is that there are some tremendously smart people in our sector and a real commitment to work together. So we're all in this together, we all have a role to play. And I truly believe that we'll make progress.   Harneet Panesar  37:19 Well, I totally agree with Carolyn. I mean, you know, this notion of collaboration coming together and working together, I think we're doing a lot of things right. From that perspective, even this podcast, you know, being here and talking to you and connecting with your listeners, hopefully, that brings a bit of a circle back to us and people reaching back out to us, we need to, you know, no one can be operating in a black box, you need to collaborate and work together. The only other thing, maybe I'll say, in terms of what we're doing what we're doing, right, and I'm going to put on my proud Canadian engineering hat on here and say, look, we've been pioneers in the energy space for decades, you know, when it came to hydroelectric generation in southern Ontario, to even the CANDU nuclear reactors, I think Canadians have been doing a lot to pioneer push the energy sector forward. And you know, advancements and technologies even like SMRs, I think is, is a proud moment for Canadians and leading the charge and how energy is now sort of delivered, you know, bringing energy sources closer to where they're being consumed. And these are game changing types of investments and technologies that, you know, Ontario is making. So definitely a lot of things, things of pride. And I think a lot of things that we're doing right, Dan,   Dan Seguin  38:23 Carolyn, and Harneet, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions.Are you ready?   Carolyn Calwell  38:33 Ready to go.   Dan Seguin  38:36 Harneet, maybe you could start us off by telling us what you're reading right now?   Harneet Panesar  38:42 Okay, well, I'd be lying if I didn't tell you that every night I read Paw Patrol and Peppa Pig for bedtime. That's not my bedtime at someone else's bedtime. But in terms of myself when I put my feet up. Now I just picked up a book. It's not new on the shelf. It's just new to me. I haven't had a chance to really go through it, but it's a book by Rupi Kaur or R-u-p-i, last names core K-A-u-R. And it's a political novel and the book is called The Sun and Her Flowers.   Dan Seguin  39:09 Okay,what about you, Carolyn?   Carolyn Calwell  39:11 I'm reading some essays from MFK. Fisher in the Art of Eating. It's fantastic. Very funny.   Dan Seguin  39:19 Okay, Carolyn, who is someone that you truly admire?   Carolyn Calwell  39:24 Retired Chief Justice Beverley McLaughlin has to top my list.   Dan Seguin  39:27 And what about you, Harneet? Who do you truly admire?   Harneet Panesar  39:32 I would say it would be my 99 year old grandfather, who was a retired Air Force engineer from the Royal Indian Air Force who lived a very colorful life full of incredible stories and journeys. And as always a source of inspiration for me.   Dan Seguin  39:51 Okay, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What are some of your favorite movies or shows?   40:01 For me, Madness is coming up. So my TV is dedicated to women's NCAA basketball.   40:08 I'm a bit of a foodie. And I have a bit of a travel bug. So I like traveling and eating. And so there's a series called Somebody Feed Phil, which brings sort of traveling and food together and a little bit of comedy. So it's a nice casual watch. So we've been watching a lot of that.   Dan Seguin  40:23 Lastly, Harneet, what is exciting you about your industry right now?   Harneet Panesar  40:30 For me, it's changed. And, you know, maybe I'm a creature of change. It's sort of where I thrive. But it's exciting to see us move forward and in the directions we are in. So for me, change is really what's exciting. I'm proud to be part of it. I'm looking forward to what the future brings with it.   Dan Seguin  40:50 Okay, what about you, Carolyn, what's exciting you?   Carolyn Calwell  40:54 I couldn't agree with Harneet more, change is exciting. I think there's a tremendous opportunity ahead of us. I think we're gonna see the world shift, and I'm eager to be part of it.   Dan Seguin  41:04 Well, Carolyn, and Harneet. This is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The Think Energy podcast. If our listeners want to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?   Carolyn Calwell  41:20 They can find us on LinkedIn or at OEB.ca. And we're eager to hear from everybody.   Dan Seguin  41:28 Again, thank you both so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.   Carolyn Calwell  41:34 Thank you so much for having us.   Dan Seguin  41:38 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.      

Ep 443  - Monitoring the Ocean in Real-Time Guest: Dr. Scott Beatty By Stuart McNish   The odds are good that you live on the coast. In Canada, according to Natural Resources Canada, 38.3 percent of us live within 20 kilometres of the coast. In the US, more than 52 percent live within miles of the coast. What happens on the waters that lap against our shores matters. According to Fisheries and Oceans Canada, “we rely on our oceans for food, jobs, [and] clean air. Our social fabric is woven into the vast history of maritime and indigenous traditions.”   What happens at sea is, however, a mystery. Key to understanding what is happening along the vast coastline is data – real-time data. Not just modelling or satellite imagery – real data gathered from the ocean and beamed up in real-time. Enter Victoria-based MarineLabs' “CoastAware” ocean buoys that are now providing critical information to ships' captains, coastal communities, port authorities and governments.   Data that helps to ensure safe passage, data that helps ports react to changing weather, and data that ensures coastal communities have time to batten down the hatches in advance of storms and rogue waves.   We invited Dr. Scott Beatty of MarineLabs to join us for a Conversation That Matters about the importance of real-time wind and wave data and the long-term insights it provides to coastal communities and the plan for changing climatic conditions.   Join me Mar 28 for Conversations Live - A Vancouver Sun Town Hall: Climate Smart Ag - Raising Better Food?   If you love communications and speech writing you'll gain valuable insights from Presidential SpeechWriting which I narrated.

FPX Nickel (TSX-V: FPX, OTCQB: FPOCF) is pleased to announce that it has received funding from the Government of Canada to accelerate demonstration of the technical and commercial viability to produce nickel sulphate and cobalt hydroxide for the electric vehicle battery supply chain from the Company's Baptiste Nickel Project in central British Columbia. On completion of a competitive application process, FPX has been awarded $725,000 by Natural Resources Canada under the Government of Canada's Critical Minerals Research, Development and Demonstration program, designed to assist the development of critical minerals supply chains to contribute to Canada's goal of being a net-zero carbon emitter. CEO Martin Turenne stated: “We are grateful to receive this funding support from the federal government. FPX was honoured to be the only junior mining company in attendance at the December 2022 launch event for Canada's critical mineral strategy, and for NRCan's invitation to attend Minister Wilkinson's recent trade mission to Japan. We see tremendous opportunity for partnership and collaboration between industry and the federal government and First Nations on critical minerals projects such as Baptiste, and look forward to scaling up the production of battery-grade nickel sulphate and cobalt hydroxide from Baptiste and to demonstrating the technical and economic viability of producing battery materials in our upcoming preliminary feasibility study, expected in the third quarter of 2023.” 0:00 Introduction 1:37 Canadian government funds Baptiste Nickel project 5:05 Treasury C$17mm fully-funded 6:00 Revealing of corporate strategic investor 7:12 Future reception of government funds to advance Baptist deposit 8:52 Investors are sleeping on FPX Nickel 10:22 Automakers investing upstream in battery metals miners 13:13 Successful pilot plant flowsheet demonstration 14:56 Van Target exploration success 16:26 Upcoming catalysts Company website: https://fpxnickel.com/ Press release found here: https://fpxnickel.com/news/ FPX Nickel Presentation: https://fpxnickel.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/FPX-Nickel-Corporate-Presentation.pdf Sign up for our free newsletter and receive interview transcripts, stock profiles and investment ideas: http://eepurl.com/cHxJ39 FPX Nickel is an MSE sponsor. The content found on MiningStockEducation.com is for informational purposes only and is not to be considered personal legal or investment advice or a recommendation to buy or sell securities or any other product. It is based on opinions, SEC filings, current events, press releases and interviews but is not infallible. It may contain errors and MiningStockEducation.com offers no inferred or explicit warranty as to the accuracy of the information presented. If personal advice is needed, consult a qualified legal, tax or investment professional. Do not base any investment decision on the information contained on MiningStockEducation.com or our videos. We may hold equity positions in some of the companies featured on this site and therefore are biased and hold an obvious conflict of interest. MiningStockEducation.com may provide website addresses or links to websites and we disclaim any responsibility for the content of any such other websites. The information you find on MiningStockEducation.com is to be used at your own risk. By reading MiningStockEducation.com, you agree to hold MiningStockEducation.com, its owner, associates, sponsors, affiliates, and partners harmless and to completely release them from any and all liabilities due to any and all losses, damages, or injuries (financial or otherwise) that may be incurred.

  To address climate change, we must be united, working together towards a common goal. But differing perspectives have created a complex and polarized debate: renewable energy versus fossil fuel versus nuclear power. These discussions require an open mind and constructive dialogue to find solutions that work for all stakeholders. In thinkenergy episode 106, Dr. Monica Gattinger, li, unpacks how we can build a stronger way forward for Canada – together.   Related links   Positive Energy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/positive-energy Positive Energy, Twitter: https://twitter.com/uOttawa_Energy The Institute for Science, Society and Policy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/issp The Institute for Science, Society and Policy, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/institute-for-science-society-and-policy/ Monica Gattinger, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/monica-gattinger-748a6a42/ Monica Gattinger, Twitter: https://twitter.com/MonicaGattinger   To subscribe using Apple Podcasts To subscribe using Spotify To subscribe on Libsyn --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube Check out our cool pics on Instagram More to Learn on Facebook 16130 HYD: February thinkenergy Podcast – Ep 106: Positive Energy           Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod   ------------- Transcript:  Dan Seguin  00:06 This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry,   Dan Seguin  00:28 Everyone, welcome back. Energy and climate change are important topics that have been increasingly discussed in recent years due to the significant impact they have on the environment, the economy, and society as a whole. The effects of climate change, such as rising sea levels, increased frequency of extreme weather events, and loss of biodiversity are widely recognized by the scientific community. However, there are different views on the best ways to address these issues, particularly in terms of energy policy, and the way we live, work, consume and travel. While some advocate for the transition to renewable energy sources, others still argue for the continued use of fossil fuels or the development of other technologies such as nuclear energy.   Dan Seguin  01:27 These differing perspectives have created a complex and often polarized debate. It is important to approach these discussions with an open mind, consider the evidence and engage in constructive dialogue to find common ground and solutions that work for all stakeholders. We've often heard that working together and respecting different opinions are essential for effective collaboration and innovation. For climate change, it's more important than ever, that we come together to work towards a common goal. So here is today's big question. When it comes to energy, and climate, are we able to consider diverse perspectives so we can identify blind spots, and challenge assumptions that will ultimately lead to a stronger way forward for Canada. Today, my special guest is Dr. Monica Gattinger. She's the director of the Institute for Science, Society and Policy. She's a full professor at the School of Political Studies and founder Chair of Positive Energy at the University of Ottawa. Monica, welcome to the show. Now, perhaps you can start by telling our listeners a bit about yourself, and how the positive energy program that you found it at the University of Ottawa came to be?   Monica Gattinger  02:55 Thanks, happy to. I'm a professor at the University of Ottawa. And I've been a student of energy, Dan it kind of pains me to say it, for but going on three decades now. And I guess about maybe 10 years ago or so around 2014-2015, you might remember at that time, there was a lot of contentiousness in the energy sector, particularly around pipeline development. And I think, you know, I felt a certain frustration that I'd go to energy conferences, and we'd all kind of get concerned about this. And, you know, I don't know, throw our hands up in the air, but what was happening, and then walk away, come back at the next conference to do the same thing. So the idea that I had was to create an initiative that would convene leaders who were concerned about these issues of public confidence and energy decision making, convening them together to try to identify what some of the key challenges are. And then I would undertake a research team, some solution focused, applied academic research to actually feed that process on an ongoing basis. So it's, you know, not just conferences, we walk away conferences, we walk away, it's, let's put in place a process to actually excuse me to actually get to some solution seeking on the challenges.   Dan Seguin  04:11 Okay, now, I have to ask you, because I love the name, given how polarizing energy has been for a number of years now, is the name meant to have a double meaning?   Monica Gattinger  04:20 Yes, it is. You are exactly right. That was you know, at the time when we created that name, that was precisely what we were trying to do, which is let's have some positive discussions about energy. I think the other thing I'd point to is, you know, for us, and it's always been the case that energy is all energy. So yes, at the time when we created positive energy, you know, what was in the news was big pipelines. But many of these issues and the challenges that we address with our work, apply to all energy sources, whether it's, you know, electricity, oil and gas at the upstream downstream, midstream sectors, so we really wanted to try to foster a pan Canadian approach on on the issues with energy as the core.   Dan Seguin  05:10 Monica, in one of your research reports, you acknowledge that division is eroding public trust and preventing progress. Why is that happening? Is it a lack of understanding around climate change and Canada's goals? Or is it more about the method or policies in place to get there?   Monica Gattinger  05:32 That's a super important question, Dan. And it's really at the heart of what we're aiming to do with positive energy. So if you look at where we're at now, on energy and climate, there's, you know, a tremendous global move towards net zero. And, of course, this is going to mean just a wholesale transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. So, you know, there are bound to be disagreements of division over how we go about doing that. And I think, you know, one of the crucial things about this energy transition in comparison to previous energy transitions, is that it's going to be largely policy driven, like, yes, there will be market developments, but policy is going to be playing such an important role. So to your question, you know, a lot of this is around the methods or the policies that we're going to be putting in place when it comes to energy transition. And I think our work really starts from the, you know, the very strong belief that if we don't have public confidence in government decision making over energy and climate, we're not going to be able to make ongoing forward progress on either energy or, or climate objectives. And for us, public confidence is, you know, the confidence of people, whether as citizens, as consumers as community members, but it's also the confidence of investors, right, we know that we're going to need a tremendous amount of new energy infrastructure, without the investor confidence to make that happen, we're not going to be able to to, you know, achieve the emissions reductions that are envisioned envisaged. So for us that whole question of division, and how do we address division, where it exists, is just fundamental to our efforts.   Dan Seguin  07:17 Okay. Now, do you think we lack a shared positive vision as Canadians on the future? And how we get there together? How do we build bridges? Is this what you're trying to achieve with positive energy?   Monica Gattinger  07:32 Yeah, I'd say yes or no, on the shared vision. So you know, we do a lot of public opinion, polling researchers, as you might know, Dan, and and, you know, uniformly Canadian scores, government's very poorly, on whether they are succeeding and developing a shared vision for Canada's energy future. That said, you know, I don't see it all as a whole bad news, there is remarkable alignment of views among Canadians on many aspects of the country's energy future, I think sometimes what, what we tend to hear, you know, are the voices in political debates and in the media, and in the end in the media, that are on you know, sort of opposite ends of a spectrum, if you look at, you know, sort of where Canadians are at, in general, you know, in terms of the majority opinions, they're often much more aligned than what you might think, by listening to some of our political debates or reading the media. So I think what we're trying to do at positive energies is a few things. One is, you know, to really try to see just how divided we are, and a lot of our work has brought forward that we're not as divided as we might think, on some of these issues. And the second thing we're trying to do is provide a forum for people who do want to work constructively and positively to chart a positive path forward, provide that forum for those to do that, and then to undertake academic research to support that. And one of the things that we found is that there's just a tremendous appetite for that kind of initiative.   Dan Seguin  09:05 Okay, Monica, hoping you can shed some light on this next item. What do you mean, when you see that Canada is at a log jam when it comes to charting our energy future?   Monica Gattinger  09:19 That's a great question. Because, you know, when I think about when we wrote that, that was a few that were written a few years ago. So it kind of answers that question a little bit differently now than I would have if you'd asked it at the time that we wrote it. So if you think about it, cast your mind back to 2015. And the creation between the federal government and the provinces of the pan Canadian framework on clean growth and climate change, there was a lot of alignment between the federal government and provinces and territories around climate change. And then we had some electoral turnover and new governments coming into power at the provincial level and the round sort of the 2018 period and that relative peace between federal and provincial governments began to be overturned. And so that, you know, the log jam that we were referring to was really written at that period of time, we were seeing a lot of fractiousness between the federal government and provincial governments. And don't get me wrong, we still see, we still see some of that, but certainly not to the level we did at that time. So I think it over the last few years, we've seen much greater alignment emerge in the country, notably around the concept of net zero, which we think is really, really, really constructive progress. I think, where we see some of the challenges now is moving to implementation, right? How do we move to reduce emissions and actually roll up our sleeves and do it in a way that will build and maintain public confidence? That's, you know, that's very much where we're casting our efforts these days.   Dan Seguin  10:50 Okay, cool. And what are some of the weaknesses you found in energy decision making?   Monica Gattinger  10:56 So I think there are a few that I would point to, you know, one would be and our current work is zeroing in on this more than we have in the past, is the whole question of energy security. And by that what, what we're referring to is the reliability and affordability and availability of energy. So in the absence, I mean, Dan, you know, you work at hydro Ottawa, so you would know, when you know, when the lights go out. People are nervous, it really captures their attention. I'll put it that way. And so in the absence of, you know, reliable, affordable energy, it's going to be very difficult to make ongoing progress on emissions reductions. So that whole question of energy security is one of the what I'd say is sort of the weaknesses in the frame that policymakers are often bringing to, to energy decision making, I think a second area that really is going to need some attention is our policy and regulatory frameworks for energy project decision making. I mean, we know, let's say, you know, take electrification, if we're going to be moving forward on electrification in a meaningful way. Most reasonable estimates assume we're going to need to double or triple our generating capacity in the country, and all the infrastructure transmission, local distribution, all that goes along with that, that's going to require building a whole lot of infrastructure. And so there's definitely some weaknesses there in our existing frameworks for doing that. And then the third area I'd point to is collaboration between governments. And so yes, federal and provincial, but it's also increasingly, municipal governments as well need to be collaborating with other levels of government and indigenous governments too, so bringing together that collaboration across jurisdictions is an area where there's a lot of a lot of strength that we're going to need to be building.   Dan Seguin  12:47 Okay, Monica, following up on this theme, positive energy has conducted a number of public opinion surveys since 2015, to gauge Canadian support for the country's climate commitments and their views on our international credibility. What are some surprises? And have you seen any change in attitudes since you started the surveys?   Monica Gattinger  13:11 Yeah, we've done a lot of work. We have a fantastic partnership with Nanos research, we've been working with Nick Nanos and the Nanos team since 2015, we've done lots of public opinion polling along the way. And so I think, you know, one of the things that has surprised me the most about this, and maybe it's just my own naivete as as a, you know, an academic researcher, but is just the pragmatism of Canadians, you know, many of the questions that we put to Canadians come back with very pragmatic and balanced responses. So there seems to be that recognition on the part of, of Canadians of the need to take a balanced approach to energy and climate issues. So I'll give you just a couple of quick examples. So we've been tracking Canadians level of climate ambition, we started doing this actually, during the pandemic. And so we asked people on a scale of zero to 10, where zero is now the worst time and 10 is the best time to take action on climate, you know, what, what, how would you score things? And, you know, the majority of Canadians, you know, score things strongly, they want to see climate action. We've seen some weakening of that, notably, as we've got some weakening of the economic conditions that has weakened people's appetite. So that's sort of one thing we, you know, Canadians want climate action. On the second. Second thing I'd point to is, we've done a lot of tracking as well, around Canadians views on the importance of oil and gas to Canada's current economy and to its future economy. And so, you know, there again, we see what you might expect, which is people there's a recognition that oil and gas is important to Canada's current economy. Views tend to drop off a little bit in terms of its importance to the future economy, but much stronger than I would have anticipated in terms of the level of, you know, opinions when it comes to the strength, or when it comes to the importance, apologies of oil and gas and Canada's current and future economy. One thing I'm just going to, you know, like heads up, we've got a study coming out very shortly. And we've seen a jump in Canadians' views around the importance of oil and gas to the country's current and future economy. And we're thinking that this might be because of economic conditions having changed, you know, the war, Russia's war in Ukraine, just creating a different kind of an environment for Canadians opinions, then the last thing I point to that, for me is kind of been surprising, but in a not always fun way is that we've also been tracking Canadians views on government's performance on energy and climate issues. And then it doesn't matter what aspect of government performance we ask people about, they always score it like so weak, like weak to the point, when we first asked this question, I'm like, Nick, do people you know, just kind of score governments weekly? And so this is just, you know, typical stuff. He's like, No, Monica, that's really low scores. So I think there's a recognition there on the part of Canadians that governments have a lot of work to do, that this is difficult stuff, to to to take on. But that we're going to need to if we're going to be able to achieve some of our climate ambition in the country.   Dan Seguin  16:27 Now, let's dig into the research. First, can you tell us who you're convening and bringing together to conduct your research and who your intended audience is? Who do you want to influence?    Monica Gattinger  16:42 Yeah, so we're bringing together leaders, from business, from government and from government, we're referring to both policymakers and regulatory agencies, leaders from indigenous organizations, from civil society organizations, like environmental NGOs, and then academics, like myself. And our aim is really with the research and convening that we're undertaking is to inform decision making, you know, so the key audience for this from our perspective as government decision makers, whether policymakers or regulators at, you know, at at any level of government, really, more broadly, in our we're working very closely with the energy and climate community at large. So our intended audience isn't, you know, sort of the general public per se, although I like to think that we're sort of working on their behalf in terms of a lot of the work, a lot of the work that we're doing   Dan Seguin  17:37 Great stuff, Monica, now, let's talk about your first multi year research phase, public confidence in energy decision making. Why is it important to start here?   Monica Gattinger  17:49 Yeah, for us, this was really crucial to try to dig into and understand why we are facing these challenges to public confidence in decision making, for energy and climate issues. And, you know, believe it or not, we spent about two years trying to dig into that problem and identify all of its different, all of its different components. So we published a study in that first phase of research called system under stress, where we were focusing on energy decision making, and the need to inform, sorry, to reform energy decision making in that study, and this was sort of how we unpack this challenge of public confidence. We use this metaphor of elephants, horses, and sitting ducks. And so the elephants were elephants in the room. So at that time, one of the big issues that was, you know, informing or leading to challenges in public confidence was that there was a belief on the part of quite a few folks that governments were taking insufficient action on climate change. And as a result of that, not having a forum, you know, to move forward action on climate change, many folks who were concerned about that or raising those issues in regulatory processes for individual energy projects, right? And if your regulators say, well, that's not part of my mandate. So what would we do with this, and that led to some challenges. Another Elephant, you know, another elephant in the room at that time was reconciliation with indigenous peoples, that there was insufficient action on the part, you know, on the, you know, in the minds of many around reconciliation with indigenous peoples and so, you know, some of the big challenges that indigenous communities were facing, whether missing, murdered indigenous women, you know, potable drinking water, economic conditions, a whole host of challenges were also being raised in the context of individual energy project decision making. The process for lack of other forums to take those concerns to another elephant in the room was cumulative effects. Right. So communities were concerned not necessarily about a particular project, but about the project that came before the project, who was going to come after it, and what would be the cumulative effects on their community. So that was sort of the elephant, the elephant in the room policy gaps, basically, that governments needed to take more action to fulfill. When it came to the horses, we were referring to horses that had left the barn. So in other words, changes in society and the broader, you know, context, where you're not going to turn the clock back on them. So things like, you know, people expect, rightly, to have a say, in decisions that affect them. They're not different, you know, they don't defer the way they used to, to governments and to decision makers, they expect to have a say in decisions that affect them. And some of our decision making processes weren't frankly, providing sufficient opportunities for them to be heard. Technological change, right, you know, you're not going to turn the clock back on social media. And that also has fundamentally changed the context in terms of how information circulates capacities for misinformation, disinformation, etc. And so when against this backdrop, you know, who are the sitting ducks? Well, the sitting ducks are government decision makers, right? They're trying to deal with all of these challenges. We got a lot of traction with that report, Dan, because I think it sort of helped people to, you know, frame up, what is the nature of the challenge that we're facing when it comes to public confidence, which of course, then begins to open up solution spaces?   Dan Seguin  21:40 Okay. What did you uncover when it came to the role of local communities?   Monica Gattinger  21:46 Yeah, we did a major study on this, it was some of this was happening concurrently. But we did a major study in collaboration with the Canada West Foundation, where we did some very deep dive case study research on half a dozen energy projects across the country with the aim of identifying drivers of local community satisfaction or dissatisfaction with energy project, decision making processes. So these were projects, you know, wind, gas plants, hydro facilities, transmission lines, pipelines, shale development, like a whole variety of different kinds of projects in different locations across the country. And so there are a few things I'd point to there in terms of some of the key findings. Probably the first and foremost is the importance of early and meaningful consultation and engagement. And I feel kind of silly saying that, because it's like, we have been saying this for years, how important this is. But yet, you know, there are still proponents that aren't necessarily, you know, aren't necessarily getting out there early and in a meaningful way, to communities. I think the second thing, and it's related, that I'd point to is the importance of information, like yes, communities want information about a project. But it's an what we refer to in the report is a necessary but insufficient condition, right, just saying, you know, here's the project, here's the information, this should change your mind, if you've got any concerns, really and truly is not is not enough, you need that meaningful engagement, you need to hear from people. And in some instances, this is a third thing I'd point to. In some instances, you know, it's important to draw the distinction between what a community's interests are so it could be, you know, economic development, jobs, etc, but also what their values are. And there may be some projects that even though they might advance the community's interests, in terms of jobs, etc, if they run counter to community values, and what they want to see developed in their community, it will be very challenging to foster support for up for a project. Another thing, we found just a couple more things that point to here. Another thing we found that I think is going to be increasingly important as we move on net zero and emissions reductions, oftentimes at the community level, the key environmental issue is local environmental impacts, as opposed to global climate change impacts. So even if you've got a project that's going to be good for the climate, if it's got local environmental impacts from the perspective of a community, those concerns may actually trump the good that could be done more broadly when it comes to the climate. And so I guess the last thing I'd point to is, you know, just the importance of process, having a decision making process in which people can have faith. And so, you know, we did a lot of work right in communities. So you'd have community members say, like, I can get behind a decision that I don't agree with, you know, if my perspective is at the end of the day, we're heard in a meaningful way and were considered in a meaningful way. But governments decided to go in a different direction. I can, you know, I can live with that as long as I felt that the process was one that was legitimate. So that process piece is so important at the community level.   Dan Seguin  25:02 Okay, now, what were some of the biggest takeaways from your project? Monica? Were you surprised by any of the data?   Monica Gattinger  25:09 Yeah, I think, you know, for me, I probably go back to the local versus global impacts piece, I think that is a circle, we're gonna have to figure out how to square for lack of a better a better metaphor here going forward, because many of the projects that we're going to need in the years ahead in terms of emissions reductions, they are going to have local environmental impacts. You know, and it doesn't take long to think about examples of that, right. So think about mining for critical minerals, think about transmission infrastructure, think I mean, on and on and on. And so thinking through how do we, you know, be respectful of local communities ensure we've got processes in place that that they can have faith in and ensure that local environmental impacts are mitigated in a meaningful fashion? And frankly, no has to be an option sometimes, right? There are some projects that have to receive a no of all projects are greenlighted, that puts the entire system into question in people's minds.   Dan Seguin  26:15 Okay, Monica, your second research phase just concluded Canada's energy future in an age of climate change. What challenges and opportunities were you focused on? And what did you uncover?   Monica Gattinger  26:28 That's a big question, Dan. So maybe just a couple of things I'll point to. The first is to say that, you know, for that particular project, because it was or that phase because it got underway at a time where there was quite a lot of fractiousness between the federal and provincial governments. We took on the topic of polarization, in that phase of the research to try to understand, you know, just how polarized are we, when it comes to energy and climate issues? And, and the, you know, the, the, the fortunate answer was that we're not as polarized as we might think, on some of these issues. So those areas where, you know, people's opinions are truly at opposite ends of a spectrum, they've got their heels dug in, the opinions are very hardened and crystallized, they're not willing to move, you know, there's, those are very few and far between a lot more of the division that we see back to that word division that we talked about earlier, Dan, it so those are opinions that are maybe a little bit more malleable to change, where you can potentially bring people together and have a constructive, constructive conversation to move things forward. So that the polarization, the polarization work, I think was really important to try to, you know, shine a light empirically on just how polarized are we, one thing that did come out of that work, though, that I think is really important to note is that a lot of the polarization that we see is along partisan lines. And so it's really important to have and create non-partisan forums for people to come together because partisan polarization on energy and climate issues can be quite challenging. So we looked at polarization, we also looked at, we continued our work around sort of roles and responsibilities of different government authorities in energy and climate decision making, we did a really big project around energy regulators with, you know, again, thinking about how important they are going to be in the future when it comes to energy project proposals and evaluating energy project proposals. And I think, you know, what came out of that work is just the importance of creating regulatory frameworks that are functional, right, they're going to enable us to get to a decision. But that is adaptable. You know, we know there are going to be new energy sources, new technologies we're going to need to be adapting our frameworks over time. And that are, you know, absolutely this crucial element and of legitimate that they are that people have confidence in those decision making processes. But it's not just about regulators. It's also about the broader policy context within which they work, you know, the need for regulatory agencies to be operating in the context of clear policy frameworks. You know, for there to be a good understanding between policymakers and regulators they have their respective roles when it comes to things like energy project, energy project approvals. The third area that we focused on in this most recent phase of research was models of and limits to consensus building, right. So if we do have division, how do we try to foster consensus and we recognize we're not going to get to you know, everybody holding hands and singing Kumbaya there. This is politics, there will be, there will be divisions. But we did a lot of work on this whole concept of what are some of the models that can be utilized to foster consensus? What are some of the limits to those models? And the sort of bottom line of that research is that progress is possible when it comes to consensus building, but it's not easy. It's a hard one, it takes time, it takes a lot of thoughtful preparation and care to put in place processes that will drive towards positive outcomes.   Dan Seguin  30:32 Okay. Now, there were five case studies that came out of this phase intended to identify what works when it comes to public confidence in decision making. What are some of the highlights?   Monica Gattinger  30:44 Yeah, and this kind of picks up on the question of consensus building and models of and limits to consensus building. So we undertook a number of case studies of different initiatives that have been tried in Canada to try to foster consensus. So we looked, for example, at the Alberta climate leadership plan, we looked at the Eco fiscal commission, we looked at the National roundtable on the environment of the economy, we looked at the just transition Task Force on the coal fired power phase out. So this was a mixture of federal provincial, government, non government, current past initiatives. And there are a few things that I point to that, you know, came out of that work. The first is that there are no silver bullets. I mean, Boy, wouldn't it be nice if there were easy answers to these really tough questions, but there are not easy answers to these really tough questions. They, you know, it really is important to, to have kind of a multi pronged approach. And more than one approach, there isn't going to be one single initiative that's going to solve all of these challenges. But process matters process really matters. So who is involved? How are decisions taken? You know, is the process seen as legitimate? That's really, you know, absolutely the place to start with any of these processes around consensus building. Again, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right. So you can have in place a process that is designed to, you know, bring forward recommendations to the government on policy. But if people don't have trust in the information that's produced by that initiative, you've got a problem, right? So I think the Eco fiscal commission was really interesting in that, in that case, because it brought together an advisory board, that included representation from a variety of different political parties, the aim being to see if these folks can come together, and you know, work together and have confidence in this process, then others are more likely to have confidence in the information that's produced on the studies that are produced by by in that case, the ecofiscal, commission, there are a lot of relationships between different processes. So for example, you know, if you think about the development of a carbon price in Canada, you know, yes, that's where the Eco fiscal commission was focusing a lot of its efforts. But the Alberta climate leadership plan, in part paved the way towards the development of a federal price on carbon, because of the work that was done in the province to put in place a carbon pricing a carbon pricing scheme. And then the final thing, and this isn't something that people always like to hear, unfortunately, is that building consensus takes time. And it's something that is, as we know, in the current context with, you know, with climate change is something that we don't necessarily have the luxury of having. So it's how do you sort of hold those two things in your hand at the same time, and I often use the example of a carbon tax, having a carbon tax in Canada is a massive achievement for the country. But it took probably a decade or more to get there. And that's only one small in the big scheme of things policy tool. So you know, no silver bullets. It takes time, but it is possible. So progress is possible, but it's hard won.   Dan Seguin  34:12 Okay, now, this was fascinating. Monica, you identified two realities of energy and environmental leaders in Canada, when it comes to Canada's energy transition. Maybe you can unpack that for us just a bit more.   Monica Gattinger  34:29 Yeah, for sure. So this was a really, really neat study, one of the things that we found in our work, because we convene when we are, you know, very close to a lot of energy and environmental leaders. One of the things that we were finding is that this word transition could have elements to it that were kind of polarizing. And so for some folks, it was something that actually drove them away from our table rather than bringing them to our table. So being academics, we thought, well, let's do a study on this. What do people think transition is? What does it mean to them? Why are we running into these issues? And I have to credit our former Research Director, Dr. Marissa Beck, this was her idea, it was her study, she did an absolutely tremendous job. So she went out there and spoke with over 40 energy and environmental leaders across the country. And, and what, you know, what emerged from that work was that there were really two different realities that people inhabited, either, you know, sort of in whole, or in part, when it comes to transition. And we didn't name the realities, we just stated them, you know, in a very, in a very sort of fact based way. And they differed in terms of scope, and pace of change. And, you know, so in one of the realities, you know, the, the idea is that we're going to have a more measured pace of change, it's going to be driven by market developments, some policy developments, we're going to in the future have, you know, a diverse energy portfolio that's going to include, you know, a variety of different energy sources, yes, in different proportions than we currently have them. But you know, that oil and gas, for instance, is going to be a part of the future. So that's sort of one reality, the other reality grounded in a much more, you know, ambitious, rapid, need for change, quickly grounded in science, much stronger role for government in terms of setting out the policy framework, much greater attention to the need to, notably to phase down oil and gas and in particular oil. And so you can imagine if you've got folks inhabiting these different realities, it is difficult for them to come together, because they're often talking past. They're often talking past one another. And, and so we didn't necessarily have any solutions for this proposed in that particular, in that particular study. I think our work really does try to do some convening around those issues. But what it really did in this particular study resonated so well, with folks in the Energy and Environment communities, we had people saying, like you just nailed it. Yes, that is exactly what is happening right now. And so you would have folks say, you know, well, the reality is, or we just need an honest conversation. But what the reality meant to them, what an honest conversation would mean to them was, was something completely different than folks inhabiting the other reality. And so these are the kinds of challenges, you know, Dan, that we, we hope to shed light on with our work. And we also hope to also address the research and convening as well.   Dan Seguin  37:50 Now, your third phase has just begun. What can you tell us so far, about strengthening public confidence on the road to net zero and the areas you're looking to cover in your research over the next several years?   Monica Gattinger  38:07 Yeah, no, that's a great opportunity to share this with you, Dan. Thanks. Thanks so much. So yeah, I mean, if our first phase was focused on public confidence, and kind of the here and now, second phase was Canada's energy future in an age of climate change, this phase is the longest term, longest term phase yet in terms of looking at net zero. And looking at 2050. We've got four areas that we're focusing in on in terms of this research, that really build in many ways on the work that we've done to date, we've been talking so far data about the importance of regulation, and having energy project decision making systems that are going to foster and support the kind of change to our energy systems that we're going to need. That's a big, a big area for us, one of the areas as well, that we're going to start to be getting into an in a more meaningful way, is downstream regulation as well, because with the, you know, with the growing attention to electrification, this is going to mean, you know, greater focus to what are our regulatory frameworks for energy delivery, whether it's in power markets, or in gas markets. And we think that there's, there's something that we will have to offer there as well, in terms of our work. So that's on the regulatory front. Another topic that for us, we think is really important is this whole question of energy security. And by that, you know, again, this isn't just about what's happening in global energy markets, it's what's happening domestically as well in terms of the need of the need to have reliable and affordable energy to ensure that we don't, you know, take one step forward and then two steps back on emissions reductions. So it's really very much about solving for Yes, emissions reductions and affordable reliable energy simultaneously, which in our observation is something that you know, has has not always been on the radar of policymakers, I think the energy system has just done such a great job of providing reliable, affordable energy that it's not always thought about. And yet, you know, if we're going to be transforming our energy systems, it better be front and center. Or we could really run into some challenges in terms of public confidence on the road ahead. The third area we're zeroing in on is intergovernmental collaboration. We are a federation, we are a federation with increasing roles and authority for indigenous governments, as well. So it's really about how do we make sure we've got good collaboration between federal, provincial, territorial, indigenous and municipal governments on the road ahead. And again, it's that kind of collaboration, collaboration piece. And then finally, we're going to continue with the public opinion survey research. And that work generally aims to support the other streams of research. So we're asking questions that relate to some of the broader work that we're doing. Cool. Okay.   Dan Seguin  41:07 I know you're going to tell me it's early Monica, but based on what the data and public service have shown over these many years, is Net Zero. resonating with people?   Monica Gattinger  41:19 Well, interestingly, so last June, we held a conference to mark the, you know, the conclusion of phase two and the launch of phase three. And we did some public opinion survey research going into that conference, including some questions around net zero. So we asked people if they had heard about net zero. And then we asked them, you know, the dreaded open ended question, and what does it mean to you? So it's one thing to have heard about, it's another thing to, you know, be asked to define it. And I was really surprised at like, the majority, like a strong majority of people had heard of net zero. And when asked to define it provided a definition that was pretty on target. So people, you know, I don't know if that means it's resonating with people. But they have definitely absorbed that this concept, and that this is something that, you know, is in policymakers is in policymakers minds. I think the other thing I would note, though, is you know, there's netzero, and then there's just emissions reductions writ large, the work that we've done around Canadian support for emissions reductions, climate change, policy, etc, shows just time and again, Canadians want to see this, they want to see emissions reductions, they want to see it done in a balanced way back to the pragmatic response I was giving earlier. But they're definitely, definitely committed to that.   Dan Seguin  42:43 Okay, now, when do you expect your first publication will be shared?   Monica Gattinger  42:47 So we've got our quarterly public opinion surveys that come out every few months. We actually have some, we're just finalizing a study right now that will be published very, very shortly. In terms of the research publications, we've got two underway right now, that should be published within the next number of months. One is looking at regulation for project decision making, and in particular, this whole question of timelines. So if you talk with folks, you know, in industry and in government, right now, they'll say, Well, we got to build all this stuff. But can we build it fast enough? And so that's actually the title of the project? Can we build it out fast enough? And we're focusing on what are some of the issues when it comes to regulatory frameworks for project decision making. So that's one study that should be coming out within the next few months. And then a second one, it's republication of a study that we completed for the Canadian Gas Association, electricity Canada and Natural Resources Canada, but this time last year, which was looking at regulation of energy delivery systems and power and gas markets, you're looking at international case studies to try to identify like, how are other countries grappling with the challenges of netzero in their power and gas markets. So we're going to be updating and republishing that study. We're in the process of doing that right now, that should be coming out in the next few months. And the case studies that we're looking at in that research are Western Australia, the United Kingdom, which as you might imagine, is a very interesting case study given the challenges that they've had on their power and gas markets. And New York State.   Dan Seguin  44:25 Just wondering here, is there anything you can tell us about your appointment to the province's New Energy Transition panel, its objectives and how you feel this could move the energy conversation forward in Ontario.   Monica Gattinger  44:39 Thanks for the question. I mean, I'm, you know, let's be honest, I'm an energy geek. And so it is just an unbelievable honor to have been appointed to the panel. This for me, is a dream appointment. I'm just so so so enthused about it. I'm not going to be able to speak on behalf of the panel. It's too Early in our work, but I will just share, you know, in my personal capacity now that I think the panel does have the capacity or the potential to be really quite important to the province's energy future. So if you think about, you know, the research that we've been doing at positive energy, the importance of informed decision making on the part of governments to recognize all of the strengths, limitations, consequences, intended or otherwise, of their decisions on energy and climate. So the panel, I think, has a great opportunity to help inform decision making. But as I've said, on a couple of occasions, today, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right process matters. And, you know, the panel, again, has the potential to be a very important process in terms of its engagement, and meaningful engagement with stakeholders, with indigenous partners, with all those who are interested in the province's energy future. So, you know, a couple of just additional things I would say. One is that the panel's focus in its mandate on long term energy planning, I think, I think is very important, because we're gonna need to plan and think through the long term more than we ever have before in terms of our energy systems when it comes to emissions reductions. I think the other thing, you know, I would lastly, but not leastly, I would recognize, you know, the importance of affordability and reliability. You know, yes, undertaking emissions reductions, but ensuring it's done in a reliable and affordable way. That enables, you know, economic competitiveness and the like. And that's something that, you know, that this government, the Ontario government, brings to the table, which I think is extremely important and will be crucial for the future.   Dan Seguin  46:53 Okay, Monica. Now, if you could speak to everyone in Canada, what would you want people to know, that you think is not widely known? Or understood?   Monica Gattinger  47:06 Yeah, there are a few things I would point to there. I think one would be the scale of the transformation that we're contemplating with netzero. I mean, if you take electrification, just as an example, you know, about only about 20% of and use energy, I mean, I'm telling you this, Dan, you know, all this stuff, but only about 20%. The venue's energy, you know, is currently accounted for by electricity. If we're looking to scale that up, you know, depending on what model you look at, but let's say you're looking to scale that up to you know, 80%, that's four times what it where it currently stands, this is a massive, massive transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. And I think that's one area where, you know, there isn't necessarily as much understanding as there could be in terms of the scale. Like, the second thing that I would love to get out there is that, you know, there's often a view that industry is, you know, dragging its heels, it's, you know, putting in place roadblocks, it's acting as a barrier. That's not what I see, in our engagements with folks in industry across the country, and a whole variety of different energy, different segments of the energy sector. Industry is there. What, you know, the real challenge now is kind of how do we move from the what, to the how, and foster an environment that will foster the kind of change that the companies are really looking to make. And then the third area that I would point to is reconciliation with indigenous peoples. We haven't spoken about that too much this morning. But that's one of the areas over the last number of years where there has just been such a fundamental change in the way industry, and indigenous communities and governments are working together. I think what we often see in you know, in the newspapers in the media is instances of conflict, you know, for obvious reasons, that's, that's, you know, what the media is going to be drawn to, but there are so many examples of just unbelievably constructive, meaningful partnerships between indigenous communities and industry. And I think that's something that you know, that that really is, is just a wonderful, wonderful change over the last few years.   Dan Seguin  49:24 Lastly, Monica, wemalways end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. I'm hoping you say you're ready.   Monica Gattinger  49:33 Okay, I'm ready. I'll do my best.    Monica Gattinger  49:36 Here we go.What are you reading right now?   Monica Gattinger  49:39 I am reading The Heart Goes Last by Margaret Atwood. You would think you know, during a global pandemic, you wouldn't read dystopian fiction, but that's what I'm doing. Terrific. Terrific book. by Margaret Atwood.   Dan Seguin  49:52 Okay, Monica, what would you name your boat? If you had one or maybe you do have one?   Monica Gattinger  49:58 I do not have one but if I did I think I would name it Smooth Sailing, because that's what I'd want to be doing when I was on my boat.    Dan Seguin  50:05 Okay, who is someone that you really admire?    Monica Gattinger  50:09 Oh, without question. My parents. You know, we've had some pretty tragic things happen in my family and they have, you know, continued to be positive soldier on, be great grandparents to my kids, I don't know how they do it, I admire them to the moon and back, as they say,   Dan Seguin  50:26 Okay, moving on, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witness? That's a   Monica Gattinger  50:33 tough one, I think I'd say I spent a lot of time outdoors. We have dogs. So I'm often out with the dogs, I ride horses. So I'm often out horseback riding anything in nature, there are so many magical moments where you see, you know, ways that animals are interacting with one another or things happening. Things happening in the, you know, in the plant environment and ecosystem that to me are just magical, and remind me of just how little we know about the world around us.   Dan Seguin  51:06 Okay, Monica, that's cool. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began,   Monica Gattinger  51:13 My family has been extremely fortunate during the pandemic. So yeah, it feels almost kind of trite to talk about challenges. I think if there's one thing that I would point to, though, it's the last time it's the last time notably, in my family's case, between my sons and their grandparents. You know, my youngest son used to go to his grandparents house every day after school, they'd feed him snacks, he'd come home, that's gone. They've you know, they've they're missing him growing into a young man, that's, that's been really, really tough. I mean, it's a first world problem. I, you know, we really have been fortunate. But that last time is, unfortunately, and we're just not going to get that back.   Dan Seguin  51:58 Now, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What are some of your favorite shows are movie   Monica Gattinger  52:06 I could talk for hours about this. But if I had to just pick one, the whole Yellowstone series, I am just crazy for that series, you know, because I horseback ride anything that involves horses and ranches. And my own family history, you know, involves homesteading. Just that whole series Yellowstone 1883 1923. And he was talking about magic down the fact that all of that comes out of Taylor Sheridan's brain that fast I have, I don't understand at all. But I really enjoy watching it. That series is just phenomenal.   Dan Seguin  52:45 Lastly, Monica, what is exciting you about your industry right now.   Monica Gattinger  52:50 I think it's the people who are now on the let's roll up our sleeves face. And let's figure out how to know how to get this done. There's the waterfront of challenges seems endless, but the fact that that there's much more alignment among industry, government, civil society, you know, take your pick indigenous organizations, etc, about ensuring that we're reducing emissions, and, you know, the desire to work together to figure out how, to me is really exciting.   Dan Seguin  53:20 Well, Monica, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect or find out more?   Monica Gattinger  53:35 We have a website that you will be welcomed to, to reach out to just type into Google "University of Ottawa positive energy" and it should pop up for you. People are welcome to reach out to me personally, you know, again, easy to find me on the Internet, email addresses and the like. I'd be happy to hear from people.   Dan Seguin  53:55 Again. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.   Monica Gattinger  53:59 This was great. Thanks, Dan. Really appreciate the opportunity.    Monica Gattinger  54:03 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.  

It's a staggering number but British Columbia experienced close to 2500 earthquakes in 2022. Guest: John Cassidy, Senior Research Scientist with Natural Resources Canada

Ellen Whitman, a forest fire research scientist with Natural Resources Canada, spoke with host Jeff Douglas about the risk assessment released by the province this week. It looks at how climate change will bring fiercer floods, fires and extreme weather.

The next decade is crucial when it comes to fighting climate change. Each one of us has a part to play in reducing greenhouse gas emissions, but it can be overwhelming to try and pinpoint where to begin. Melanie Johnston is the Director of Energy Programs at EnviroCentre in Ottawa, an environmental non-profit offering real solutions for reducing the environmental impact of not just individuals, but also communities. She joins this episode to share some tangible ways we can all lower our carbon emissions.   Related links LinkedIn, Melanie Johnston: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-johnston-b3534956/ LinkedIn, EnviroCentre: https://www.linkedin.com/company/envirocentre-ottawa/ EnviroCentre: https://www.envirocentre.ca/ --- To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript: Think_Energy_Podcast_EP97 Fri, Oct 07, 2022 12:37PM • 24:35 SUMMARY KEYWORDS home, ottawa, energy, businesses, pandemic, people, climate change, mel, climate, city, audit, starting, transportation, programs, greenhouse gas emissions, bike, homeowners, reduce, achieve, program SPEAKERS Dan Seguin, Melanie Johnston, Rebecca Schwartz   Dan Seguin  00:06 This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Sagan, and my co-host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.   Dan Seguin  00:29 Hey, everyone, welcome back. I'm Dan Seguin. And I'm Rebecca Schwartz, if the pandemic has shown us anything, it's how interconnected we all are. Even though our world became smaller and more insular, the actions needed to combat a worldwide health crisis required a global approach, highlighting that we're all in this together.   Rebecca Schwartz  00:57 This definitely holds true with respect to climate change. We've all heard how pivotal the next decade is to get things under control, it will take all of us -actions big and small -to help achieve the results necessary to make a difference.   Dan Seguin  01:10 That's right. We all have a part to play to prevent the planet from warming 1.5 degrees Celsius above pre industrial levels. For many residents, homeowners and businesses in the National Capital Region, who want to participate in this global call to action and do their part, it can be difficult to know where to begin and what steps to take to reduce our own carbon and environmental footprint.   Rebecca Schwartz  01:41 According to the Canadian Federation of Municipalities, about 50% of all greenhouse gas emissions or GHGs In Canada come from municipalities. That means that right here in Ottawa, we have the power to influence significant change over our individual and collective emissions.   Dan Seguin  01:58 The City of Ottawa has identified that approximately 90% of our city's GHG emissions are derived from buildings, and transportation, essentially, how we heat and cool our buildings, and how we move around the city.   Rebecca Schwartz  02:13 We know that being sustainable can seem a bit overwhelming, and maybe even a little bit abstract. We want practical solutions with real results that are also long lasting, and of course affordable.   Dan Seguin  02:25 In the case of climate change, it really will take a village, our village and every village. Luckily, we have a local organization in our very own village that is making a difference and leading the way by providing practical, actionable solutions from residents all the way to City Hall and the wider community here in Canada's capital city. So here's today's big question. What tangible actions can everyday citizens and businesses take the lower or eliminate their own carbon emissions?   Rebecca Schwartz  03:06 Today, we're going to talk to Melanie Johnston, Director of Energy Programs at Enviro Center, an Ottawa based environmental nonprofit that offers people organizations and communities real solutions to lighten their environmental impact. Hi, Melanie, welcome to the show. Perhaps you could start us off by telling us a little bit about yourself and the four key areas of focus at EnviroCenter.   Melanie Johnston  03:30 Absolutely. So I'm Melanie Johnston. I'm the director of energy programs at Envira. Center. I've been with the group since December of 2009, where I thought I was just going to take sort of a part time job to get me over the Christmas hump, but I fell in love with and EnviroCenter and have been there ever since. So add at Enviro Center, our mission is to provide practical solutions to climate change that create positive environmental impact at scale. So right now our biggest focus is on helping people, businesses and communities reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. And we work in four core areas: green homes, green businesses, green transportation, and our green future for our city.   Dan Seguin  04:12 Thanks, Mel. Now, how can your programs and services help people make a practical link between their daily activities and their environmental impact?   Melanie Johnston  04:23 That's a great question and something we think about a lot here at EnviroCenter. One of the key messages underpinning all of our initiatives is that everything we do, from how we heat and cool our homes to how we get around town to the spending choices we make, has an impact on our city's carbon emissions. And that far from being powerless in the face of climate change, we can make everyday choices that will have a better outcome for the planet. All of the 22 sustainability programs we run an Envirocenter are aimed at helping make those everyday choices easier for folks.   Rebecca Schwartz  04:51 This next question is related to your work and data, in terms of what it showed you thus far of Ottawa's willingness to make change. Are there some success stories that you could share with us?   Melanie Johnston  05:02 Absolutely. So we know that the majority of Canadians believe in climate change, and that most who do acknowledge that global warming is caused by humans. Here in Ottawa, the city declared a climate emergency in 2019. And we have a robust climate change master plan outlining targets and a roadmap on how the city intends to get there. So I'd say there's definitely willingness to make change. In terms of success stories. Yes, I'm happy to say that there are many of those. Over this summer we've been running a program to facilitate the adoption of electric vehicles through educational events, and free test drives. And the response from the community has been phenomenal. The vast majority of folks we interact with understand that electrification is coming. And he's okay with the change. And we've seen a similar acceptance of home energy retrofits to and programs like the federal Greener Homes Grant has helped thousands of Canadians access energy audits and other opportunities for energy efficiency.   Dan Seguin  05:58 Okay. Now, in your opinion, what are some of the biggest barriers and challenges to achieve the zero emission targets?   Melanie Johnston  06:07 Oh, well, I think the biggest challenge we face is the sheer pace and scale at which we need to do the work that will get us to zero emissions by 2050. What a lot of folks don't realize is that in order to achieve the zero emissions by 2050 target, which is a widely recognized by scientists and policymakers, as what is needed to avoid the worst effects of climate change, most of the work to reduce our carbon emissions needs to happen in the next eight years. The problem is that while we know what that work is, and how to do it, so things like renewable energy sources, making everything we do more energy efficient and electrify everything- the level of funding it requires isn't there yet. The good news is that the more conversations we have like this, the more people who understand what is needed there are, the closer to get to where we need to be.   Rebecca Schwartz  06:54 Okay, let's talk about emissions from buildings. What's the first step homeowners should take when looking to reduce their climate impact? And why?   Melanie Johnston  07:03 Definitely a home energy audits. That's basically a comprehensive visit with Natural Resources Canada registered energy advisor, and they can provide recommendations on how to improve the energy efficiency of your home.   Dan Seguin  07:15 This next one, Mel probably comes up a lot. What does an energy audit cost? And what does it involve? So the initial audit cost somewhere between four and $600, depending on which service organization you go with, and virus Hunter is one, but there are lots of other great ones here in Ottawa. The visit itself takes about two hours and the advisor is going to do a thorough inspection of your of your home, they're going to look at your mechanicals, your heating your cooling systems, your ventilation, they're going to look at your insulation levels and measure those insulation levels in your home, check the state of your windows and doors. And then most importantly, we run a blower door test which essentially depressurizes your home and really gives us an idea of where you're getting air leakage. It's also a really importantly, I would say, the opportunity to engage with the energy adviser and the homeowner together to talk about the concerns that you might have in your house questions you might have about the performance and really just talk about what it is that you're looking to get out of this energy audit. And if you don't know anything about it, the energy advisor is there to provide you with lots and lots of recommendations for energy efficiency upgrades in the home. Now, mill, what comes after the energy audit?   Melanie Johnston  08:33 Once you've done the audit, and I should mention that there's always the first step. So before you start doing anything in your home, just always get an energy audit, because you're going to miss the boat on some funding and financing opportunities. But after the audit, essentially, you'll get a report that outlines everything that the energy advisor is found in the home, the current state, and then there's going to be those recommendations. So if you've got an old furnace, for instance, that's end of life, there's going to be a recommendation to put a heat pump in. You know, if your insulation levels are low, there'll be recommendations to improve the insulation levels in the home, you're also get a get an energy label. And that is a comparison of how your house performs against all the other houses in Canada. And it's really in it's informative for you, it tells you basically how your home is performing. Once you've got all that information, then it's time to actually do the retrofits. So you know, do you do the work on your home, follow those recommendations. One- all of the recommendations really up to you as an individual. And once that's all said and done, then we recommend the follow up audit. So basically, you have somebody come back in, they're going to verify all the work that you did. And again, more importantly, they're going to run that blower door test and hopefully we're going to see that the home is performing better than it was before you did all that work. And you get a new label which again would show a better better score against the houses in across the country.   Rebecca Schwartz  10:02 All right, we know that you're involved with the City of Ottawa as Better Home Loan Program. Could you tell us a little bit about that and what your role is?   Melanie Johnston  10:09 Sure. So, the city basically received some funding from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities to develop this loan program. Lots of municipalities across the country are starting these, it's basically a low interest loan that is tied to your property, its value is basically 10% of your property value, up to $125,000, to go towards improving the efficiency of your home. So again, similar to what I was saying about the energy audit, you know, improving your mechanicals moving to electrification in your systems, improving the insulation, you're building envelope, and then it's got some other really cool things that it will cover, as well. So things like adding a secondary suite to your unit. There's some health and safety things that that it'll cover. And it's really interesting program that I think will benefit a ton of folks in Ottawa, our role is really just the administration of the program. So we're there to help homeowners with their application process, we provide energy coaching services. So if you're stuck in your journey, and you're not sure what to do next, we're there to provide that information. We also provide additional reports that are the aim of getting homes to net zero. So just a little bit more information on going above and beyond maybe what the energy audit would show you. The other thing is that we run the Better Homes audible website, which is designed to be a one stop shop for people who are starting their retrofit journey or even if they're already in the journey, tons of resources at Better Homes Ottawa on how to choose a contractor. Lots of technical information, if you're really curious about how a heat pump works. And then really, I think where a lot of people are looking at to get information on that website is access to rebates and incentives, like the loan program.   Dan Seguin  12:03 Okay, so hoping we can shift our focus now to your work with businesses.  What services doesn't EnviroCenter provide to businesses?   Melanie Johnston  12:13 So we have a variety of services for businesses. We've got an online option that provides access to self guided worksheets and general information for businesses that want to start to take action towards reducing their carbon footprint, and becoming more sustainable. We have a membership based program called the Ottawa Green Business Hub, of which Hydro Ottawa is a member. And that service provides businesses with the tools and customized support to measure and manage their carbon footprint. And it also augments the business's capacity to set and achieve their sustainability goals. And then we also offer some consulting services that are really based on a business's individual needs, we've we've got four or five consulting contracts right now looking at a variety of things from waste to travel. And a good example is work that we've actually done with the city of the program called Travel Wise, where we're able to help businesses assess how employees get to work and make suggestions for sustainable options, basically trying to get you know, those single single occupancy vehicles off the road. And so yeah, there's a variety of things that we can do for businesses. I encourage folks just to reach out to us to see how we can get you started.   Dan Seguin  13:24 Proof points are always important. Are business cases or success stories shared among Ottawa businesses for greater learning, and adoption?   Melanie Johnston  13:35 Absolutely. Sharing success is a really important piece of our business program. And in fact, we organize an annual celebration of their achievements called the evening of recognition. And there we hand out awards to businesses that we've seen had the greatest progress in achieving their goals. We also talked to them in our annual green business report and share success stories throughout the year on our blog.   Rebecca Schwartz  13:57 Okay, we read in your report that there's approximately 20,000 businesses here in Ottawa. What programs do you offer? And what are some of the benefits that these businesses can see when they do set targets to reduce their environmental impact?   Melanie Johnston  14:11 Sure. So you know, sort of like I was saying before, we've got the variety of those business services, the suite of services, the online version being very affordable, and again, just a gateway to starting the conversation. And then the the further you are along in your sustainability journey is when you would start to get more involved in say our hub program, where you are accessing a little bit of a higher level of technical expertise in target setting, and helping folks choose what they want to do in their businesses to make them more sustainable. I would say that probably the the biggest outcome that businesses are interested in and actually see results in is saving money for their business.   Rebecca Schwartz  15:00 Okay, so how does the sustainable green economy benefit all of us?   Melanie Johnston  15:03 Um, well, I would say that the only economy going forward will be a green economy. And indeed, we are working to help build the workforce of tomorrow. One program we run is a training opportunity especially focused on upskilling folks from underrepresented communities to become registered energy advisors. As we scale the number of homes being retrofitted. We need more of those registered energy advisors, not just at Envira center, but in our city, in our province and in our country.   Dan Seguin  15:31 Okay, Mel. It seems that transportation causes more than 40% of autos, greenhouse gas emissions, what are some of the programs or initiatives that Envirocenter runs that residents should know about?   Melanie Johnston  15:47 Yes, that's right. Transportation is one of the biggest challenges we face here in Ottawa. Our most popular sustainable transportation program is less bike which runs every June. So of course, we encourage cycling all year round where possible. We also raise awareness of electric vehicles with our website, EVexperience.ca. And we work with the Ottawa Student Transportation Authority to promote active transportation to and from school. So that's actually one of my, my favorite programs. We've got a really cool app called the Hop App that kids can actually like, log their trips to and from school and it makes it super fun.   Dan Seguin  16:21 In terms of transportation, what are some initiatives that Ottawa is doing? That's exciting you?   Melanie Johnston  16:29 Whoo, I probably say the electrification efforts from evey vehicle charging stations to the fleet of 450 buses that will become part of OC transpose fleet by 2027.   Rebecca Schwartz  16:40 Okay, so Ottawa is a city of 1 million people. What would you like to see in terms of residents advocating for systematic change and greener lifestyles in our city?   Melanie Johnston  16:50 Um well, pushing for change is one of the most impactful ways we have of making a difference. Right now, the best way we can do it in Ottawa is by voting in the upcoming municipal elections. Not just voting, in fact, but also engaging with the candidates to learn more about their climate platforms and to push them to be more ambitious. I learned recently, that here in Canada, our local governments have influence over 50% of the country's greenhouse gas emissions. And that gives you an idea of how important it is that we elect local leaders who care about climate. There are other ways to push for change to you know, have conversations with your friends, family and co workers about climate, right to your MPs and MPs. Tell the businesses you shop at they expect them to do better.   Dan Seguin  17:34 Mel, what would you say to someone who asks, how can one person out of a million make a differenc when it comes to environmental change?   Melanie Johnston  17:44 It's really important to recognize that while our individual impact when it comes to something as big as climate change may seem small, our collective impact is massive. So to give you an example, our annual let's bike campaign in June is all about encouraging folks to bike. When they join last bike, they have access to an online app where they can log their bike trips and see how much greenhouse gas they've averted by choosing not to drive, each individual bike trip might not seem like much. But at the end of June, you see not just your personal tally, but also the collective tally of the 1500 participants. And those numbers can be quite impactful. This year, the results came in at 65,000 kilograms of greenhouse gas averted, which is the equivalent of burning 151 barrels of oil, or the energy use of nine homes for a year just by choosing the bike.   Dan Seguin  18:35 Big question here. Do you feel that we've entered a new level of consciousness with respect to the environment and climate change since a pandemic? What are some of the biggest examples of this lifestyle shift at a local level and globally?   Melanie Johnston  18:50 Well, I mean, certainly people being at home has made a big difference sort of, you know, in reductions in transportation. You know, we've we've seen a dramatic decrease in the number of daily commuters going to work. There's some research to suggest that the pandemic has affected people's attitude Toots towards the environment, making them more aware of the fragility of the environment and increasing their support of green policies. But of course, the truth is like climate change is happening regardless of what other crisis we are facing. I think it's fair to say that over the past few years, be it from the pandemic or other events like this summer's heat waves in the US and the Europe and forest fires out west of the storm right here in Ottawa a few months ago. There's just a wide, widespread sense of urgency and that many people are willing to make changes. They just don't always know which are the changes that are going to make the biggest difference.   Dan Seguin  19:46 Mel, are you seeing this translates into real policy change and green funding at levels of government?   Melanie Johnston  19:54 Yes and no. On paper here in Canada, we have sound policies and plans but when it comes to implementing them and actually getting a drop in the emissions reductions, we're still falling short. There is funding available but the kind of change and action that is needed right now requires a lot more funding than what we're seeing. Overall though, I am hopeful and positive that we will get there. The work that I do at EnviroCenter shows that change is possible. We just need to keep working together to achieve it.   Rebecca Schwartz  20:21 Okay, Melanie, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got some for you ready?   Melanie Johnston  20:27 I am ready.   Rebecca Schwartz  20:28 What are you reading right now?   Melanie Johnston  20:30 I'm actually rereading The Handmaid's Tale, read it in high school and just got the bug to reread it and so little frightening actually.   Rebecca Schwartz  20:39 What would you name your boat if you had one?   Melanie Johnston  20:41 That's so funny. I actually just got a cute little electric fishing boat from a friend and we named it after him. His name is already vote. So we call it the SS or the boat.   Rebecca Schwartz  20:51 Who is someone that you admire?   Melanie Johnston  20:53 So I thought a lot. You know, I think about this a lot. It's nobody that you would know. But it's a former colleague of mine, Greg furlong, who unfortunately passed away this March. He was honestly just such a leader in the world of sustainability. He was an expert in building science taught me everything I know. He was a cycling advocate, and just an all around cool guy. And really, you know, somebody who lived and breathed sustainability, I learned so much from Greg and he literally has changed my life and how I approach you know, my day to day lifestyle.   Rebecca Schwartz  21:31 What's the closest thing to real magic that you may have witnessed?   Melanie Johnston  21:35 I'm gonna go ahead and say making a human having a baby. That's pretty magical.   Rebecca Schwartz  21:39 What's been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?   Melanie Johnston  21:44 Well, I broke my leg pretty seriously in February right before the lockdown. So you know, it's really tough. I had already been in lockdown before my whole family joined me. And I have to admit re entry back into the world was just surreal, because I didn't sort of see it happening in little pieces. It was just like, all of a sudden, I didn't know how the grocery stores worked anymore. I didn't understand, you know, different aisles and arrows. And so, yeah, I found it really challenging to sort of re enter the world. After after the lockdowns ended.   Rebecca Schwartz  22:16 Okay, so since we've all been watching a lot more TV and Netflix, we want to know what's your favorite show or movie?   Melanie Johnston  22:23 Well, I've gotten into all the new Star Wars series on Disney. So I'd have to say right now I'm just in the middle of the Obi Wan series, and I'm loving it.   Dan Seguin  22:33 Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now.   Melanie Johnston  22:37 So I guess specific to the world that I work in, which is a lot on the residential retrofitting side is people are starting to look at embodied carbon in building materials, which I think is really cool, and really starting to understand sort of, you know, where our products are coming from and making smart choices about actually what we're putting in the buildings, as well as the idea of unbuilding. So instead of demolishing buildings, really taking them apart and and reducing the amount of construction waste that's out there. So those are two kind of cool things that are happening right now that people are starting to pay a little bit more attention to.   Dan Seguin  23:13 Well, Melanie, we've reached the end of another episode of the think energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?   Melanie Johnston  23:26 Envirocenter.ca best place to go. You can follow us on Twitter, you can follow us on Facebook, we've got Instagram, we're all over the social media. And so that's a good place to get to know all about and Envirocenter. And then we've got some other websites that are sort of linked to us. The one including the EV experience, which is a really cool spot, and our Better Homes Ottawa website as well.   Dan Seguin  23:50 Again, Melanie, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.   Melanie Johnston  23:56 I sure did. Thank you.   Dan Seguin  23:58 Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

Hosted by Amy Cardinal Christianson, and Matthew Kristoff. Amy is a Métis woman from Treaty 8 territory, currently living in Treaty 6, and a research scientist with the Canadian Forest Service, Natural Resources Canada. Matthew grew up in Treaty 8 territory and now lives in Treaty 6. He is a forester in the province of Alberta, Canada and the creator of YourForest Podcast.Episode highlightIn this podcast, Bhiamie Williamson discusses the connection of Indigenous peoples to the land, and how cultural burning is a way to preserve the environment and cultural heritage. ResourcesStrength from perpetual grief: how Aboriginal people experience the bushfire crisisRoyal Commission into National Natural Disaster ArrangementsSponsorsThe Canadian Partnership for Wildland Fire ScienceSupport from:● California Indian Water Commission● Firesticks Alliance Indigenous CorporationQuotes12.00 - 12.10: “There is so much trauma in our communities, people have never had the opportunity, I feel, to kind of pick themselves up and dust themselves off from colonization.”TakeawaysFire is a shared resource (5.58)As an Aboriginal child growing up in Australia surrounded by his culture, Bhiamie “always had a love for country”. He studied environmental and political sciences at university, and discovered the benefits of cultural burning. Land is at the center of healing (11.26)Bhiamie points out that fire plays an important role in Indigenous healing practices. Cultural burning can also prevent wildfires, thus preventing the trauma of losing ancestral lands.Sharing the load (19.04)Bhiamie has written an article that has inspired governments and agencies to provide trauma-informed support to Aboriginal peoples after natural disasters.The land is a living museum (24.42)Bhiamie informs that Aboriginal peoples have connections to land, and the animals, trees, stones, and petroglyphs are all part of the cultural heritage. “The best form of protecting is prevention” (30.22)Bhiamie recommends engaging Indigenous peoples in emergency management and prevention conversations which can help in high-pressure conditions. “Think ahead and be happy to be unsettled” (38.37)Bhiamie comments on the impacts of colonization and “centuries of oppression”, and the need to overturn it. True reconciliation (46.59)Bhiamie expresses his preference to have Indigenous peoples design their own emergency management programs across different lands in Australia.Children of the future (59.19)A majority of the Aboriginal population is young, which brings up the need to provide educational and developmental support along with family and social support. “It's just not good enough to ignore us anymore” (1.02.37)Bhiamie observes that even when Indigenous peoples are invited to share their opinion, they are marginalized, with tokenized opportunities that contain the impact they can have. Indigenizing masculinity (1.08.41)Bhiamie's Ph.D. research is on Indigenous men and masculinity, exploring masculinity from an Indigenous perspective. “You can call that decolonization, I just call that common sense” (1.14.13)In Bhiamie's opinion, the first step to decolonization is to employ Indigenous peoples in senior roles. Land justice and repossession by Indigenous peoples, as well as cultural burning to manage climate change, are the next steps. You can get in touch with the hosts of this podcast via email: amy.christianson@canada.ca and yourforestpodcast@gmail.com.

Natural Resources Canada has given a Nova Scotia company funding to find out if a district heating system could work in New Glasgow. Hear how the facility would burn low grade wood and wood chips to heat more than 90 per cent of the buildings in the community.

In and around Point Pleasant Park and Ashburn Golf Course, trees have white bags hanging from their branches.It's a study in progress, to help protect the American Beech tree from the invasive European Beech Weevil. Hear more from a Natural Resources Canada research scientist.