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Featured Podcast Episodes: David Friedberg on Joining Ohalo Genetics as CEO, Gene Editing Technology, and AgTech Trends by The Modern AcreHow Syngenta is Thinking About AI with Feroz Sheikh by Agtech - So What?The Agriculture Economy: How Bad Is It and Where Is It Going? by The Business of AgricultureCoaching Farmers for Profit: Athletes Have Coaches Why Shouldn't You? by Farm4ProfitNavigating the De-Commoditization of Ag with Daniel Oh of AgCertain by The Pacesetter PodA New Direction in Florida Citrus with Benny McLean by Regenerative Agriculture PodcastEmerging Trends in Sustainable Packaging with Max Teplitski and Andrew Stephens by Fresh Takes on TechLinks to other resources mentioned: FoA 395: Where is Agriculture Headed? Insights From Six Different Ag Podcasts'Biological' Is Not A Category (it's the future of agriculture)The Changing Farm Economy with David Widmar of Agricultural Economic InsightsAsk The Ag Economist With Trey Malone, Ph.D.Farm Business Strategy with Kristjan HebertImplementing a Farm Operating System with Kristjan HebertThe Farm Entrepreneur Mindset with Evan Shout of Maverick AgUnderstanding Status Quo Risk in Ag with Jim Schweigert of Gro AllianceChallenging Assumptions About Regenerative Agriculture With John Kempf

Welcome to Issue 246.5 of Deadpool Encounters, a podcast about that sweet sweet contest and lots and lots of Deadpool cards.. Here we take a good look at ahh who cares, this is all about that Deadpool contest so let's get to it. I'm one of your hosts Steve “The Brain” Wilson and I'm joined by Scott “Sharkbait” Wilson, and Daniel “Oh the glare, my eye my eyes!” Wilson.   In this Special Poolsgiving issue we look at our Poolsgiving-Away contest submissions and draw some winners! Our Friends: BoardGameLawyer: https://www.youtube.com/@boardgamelawyer Will and Meeple Professionals: https://www.meepleprofessionals.com/about-us/ Contact Us: You can find us on Discord as: Vardaen, bigfomlof, WanderingTook, and ReyReyPod Email us at: criticalencounterspod@gmail.com Follow us on Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/criticalencounterspod/ Subscribe to our YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg-r6-EooHoJGa1RRsH7i3w Find our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/criticalencounterspodcast Find our Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/vardaen You can also find our Discord Channel on the Marvel Champions Monthly Discord Server.  “With great power comes great irresponsibility." - Deadpool

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with the writer of a great new book, “London After Midnight: The Lost Film,” a book about the classic lost Lon Chaney film.LINKS A Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Daniel's Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/p/London-After-Midnight-The-Lost-Film-100075993768254/Buy the Book “London After Midnight: The Lost Film”: https://www.amazon.com/London-After-Midnight-Lost-Film/dp/1399939890Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcastTRANSCRIPTJohn: So, Daniel, when did you first become aware of London After Midnight? Daniel: I was about seven years old when I first stumbled into Lon Chaney through my love of all things Universal horror, and just that whole plethora of characters and actors that you just knew by name, but hadn't necessarily seen away from the many still photographs of Frankenstein, Dracula, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. And the Phantom was the one to really spark my interest. But this was prior to eBay. I couldn't see the film of Lon Chaney's Phantom of the Opera for a year. So, I kind of had the ultimate build to books and documentaries, just teasing me, teasing me all the time. And when I eventually did watch a few documentaries, the one thing that they all had in common was the name Lon Chaney. I just thought I need to learn more about this character Lon Chaney, because he just found someone of superhuman proportions just who have done all of these crazy diverse characters. And, that's where London After Midnight eventually peeked out at me and, occupied a separate interest as all the Chaney characterizations do.John: So how did you get into the Universal films? Were you watching them on VHS? Were they on tv? Did the DVDs happen by then?Daniel: I was still in the VHS days. My dad is a real big fan of all this as well. So he first saw Bela Lugosi's Dracula, on TV when he was a kid. And prior to me being born he had amassed a huge VHS collection and a lot of those had Boris Karloff, Bela Lugosi, Henry Hull, Claude Rains, Vincent Price, what have you.And a lot of them were dedicated to Universal horrors. And as a young curious kid, my eyes eventually crossed these beautiful cases and I really wanted to watch them. I think my first one I ever watched was The Mummy's Tomb or Curse of the Mummy. And it's just grown ever since, really.John: You're starting at the lesser end of the Universal monsters. It's like someone's starting the Marx Brothers at The Big Store and going, "oh, these are great. I wonder if there's anything better?" Jim: Well, I kinda like the fact that you have come by this fascination, honestly, as my father would say. You sort of inherited the family business, if you will. The book is great. The book is just great. And I'll be honest, I had no, except for recording the novel that John wrote, I really had no frame of reference for London after Midnight.John: Well, Jim, were you a monster guy? Were you a Universal Monster kid?Jim: Oh yeah. I mean, I had all the models. I love all of that, and certainly knew about Lon Chaney as the Phantom of the Opera, as The Hunchback of Notre Dame. I knew he was the man with a thousand faces. I knew he, when he died, he wrote JR. on his makeup kit and gave it to his kid. So, I knew stuff. But London after Midnight I didn't know at all, except for the sort of iconic makeup and that image, which I was familiar with. What was the inspiration for you in terms of writing this book?Daniel: Like you say, I really had no immediate go-to reference for London after Midnight, away from one or two images in a book. Really clearly they were very impactful images of Chaney, skulking around the old haunted mansion with Edna Tichenor by his side with the lantern, the eyes, the teeth, the cloak, the top hat, the webs, everything. Pretty much everything that embodies a good atmospheric horror movie, but obviously we couldn't see it.So that is all its fangs had deepened itself into my bloodstream at that point, just like, why is it lost? Why can't I see it? And again, the term lost film was an alien concept to me at a young age. I've always been a very curious child. Anything that I don't know or understand that much, even things I do understand that well, I always have to try to find out more, 'cause I just can't accept that it's like a bookend process. It begins and then it ends. And that was the thing with London after Midnight. Everything I found in books or in little interviews, they were just all a bit too brief. And I just thought there has to be a deeper history here, as there are with many of the greatest movies of all time. But same with the movies that are more obscure. There is a full history there somewhere because, 'cause a film takes months to a year to complete.It was definitely a good challenge for me. When we first had our first home computer, it was one of those very few early subjects I was typing in like crazy to try to find out everything that I could. And, that all incubated in my little filing cabinet, which I was able to call upon years later.Some things which were redundant, some things which I had the only links to that I had printed off in advance quite, sensibly so, but then there were certain things that just had lots of question marks to me. Like, what year did the film perish? How did it perish? The people who saw the film originally?And unlike a lot of Chaney films, which have been covered in immense detail, London after Midnight, considering it's the most famous of all lost films, still for me, had major holes in it that I just, really wanted to know the answers to. A lot of those answers, eventually, I found, even people who knew and institutions that knew information to key events like famous MGM Fire, they were hard pressed to connect anything up, in regards to the film. It was like a jigsaw puzzle. I had all these amazing facts. However, none of them kind of made sense with each other.My favorite thing is researching and finding the outcomes to these things. So that's originally what spiraled me into the storm of crafting this, initial dissertation that I set myself, which eventually became so large. I had to do it as a book despite, I'd always wanted to do a book as a kid.When you see people that you idolize for some reason, you just want to write a book on them. Despite, there had been several books on Lon Chaney. But I just always knew from my childhood that I always wanted to contribute a printed volume either on Chaney or a particular film, and London after Midnight seemed to present the opportunity to me.I really just didn't want it to be a rehash of everything that we had seen before or read before in other accounts or in the Famous Monsters of Filmland Magazine, but just with a new cover. So, I thought I would only do a book if I could really contribute a fresh new perspective on the subject, which I hope hopefully did.John: Oh, you absolutely did. And this is an exhaustive book and a little exhausting. There's a ton of stuff in here. You mentioned Famous Monster of the Filmland, which is where I first saw that image. There's at least one cover of the magazine that used that image. And Forrest Ackerman had some good photos and would use them whenever he could and also would compare them to Mark the Vampire, the remake, partially because I think Carol Borland was still alive and he could interview her. And he talked about that remake quite a bit. But that iconic image that he put on the cover and whenever he could in the magazine-- Jim and I were talking before you came on, Daniel, about in my mind when you think of Lon Chaney, there's three images that come to mind: Phantom of the Opera, Quasimoto, and this one. And I think this one, the Man in the Beaver hat probably is the most iconic of his makeups, because, 'cause it is, it's somehow it got adopted into the culture as this is what you go to when it's a creepy guy walking around. And that's the one that everyone remembers. Do you have any idea, specifically what his process was for making that look, because it, it is I think ultimately a fairly simple design. It's just really clever.Daniel: Yes, it probably does fall into the category of his more simplistic makeups. But, again, Chaney did a lot of things simplistic-- today --were never seen back then in say, 1927. Particularly in the Phantom of the Opera's case in 1925, in which a lot of that makeup today would be done through CG, in terms of trying to eliminate the nose or to make your lips move to express dialogue. Chaney was very fortunate to have lived in the pantomime era, where he didn't have to rely on how his voice would sound, trying to talk through those dentures, in which case the makeup would probably have to have been more tamed to allow audio recorded dialogue to properly come through.But with regards to the beaver hat makeup, he had thin wires that fitted around his eyes to give it a more hypnotic stare. The teeth, which he had constructed by a personal dentist, eventually had a wire attached to the very top that held the corners of his mouth, opening to a nice curved, fixated, almost joker like grin.You can imagine with the monocles around his eyes, he was thankful there probably wasn't that much wind on a closed set, because he probably couldn't have closed his eyes that many times. But a lot of these things become spoken about and detailed over time with mythic status. That he had to have his eyes operated on to achieve the constant widening of his eyelids. Or the teeth -- he could only wear the teeth for certain periods of time before accidentally biting his tongue or his lips, et cetera. But Chaney certainly wasn't a sadist, with himself, with his makeups. He was very professional. Although he did go through undoubtedly a lot of discomfort, especially probably the most, explicit case would be for the Hunchback of Notre Dame, in which his whole body is crooked down into a stooped position.But, with London After Midnight, I do highly suspect that the inspiration for that makeup in general came from the Dracula novel. And because MGM had not acquired the rights to the Dracula novel, unlike how Universal acquired the rights of the Hunchback or, more importantly, Phantom of the Opera, by which point Gaston Leroux was still alive.It was just a loose adaptation of Dracula. But nevertheless, when you read the description of Dracula in Bram Stoker's novel, he does bear a similarity to Chaney's vampire, in which it's the long hair, a mouth full of sharp teeth, a ghastly pale palor and just dressed all in black and carries around a lantern.Whereas Bela Lugosi takes extraordinary leaps and turns away from the Stoker novel. But it must have definitely had an impact at the time, enough for MGM to over-market the image of Chaney's vampire, which only appears in the film for probably just under four minutes, compared to his detective disguise, which is the real main character of the film.Although the thing we all wanna see is Cheney moving about as the vampire and what facial expressions he pulled. It's just something that we just want to see because it's Lon Chaney.John: Right. And it makes you wonder if he had lived and had gotten to play Dracula, he kind of boxed himself into a corner, then if he'd already used the look from the book, you wonder what he would've come up with, if Lugosi hadn't done it, and if Chaney had had been our first Dracula.Jim: You know, the other thing that I think of strictly like through my actor filter is here's a guy who -- take Hunchback or Phantom or even this thing -- whatever process he went through to put that makeup on, you know, was hours of work, I'm sure. Hunchback several hours of work to get to that, that he did himself, and then they'd film all day.So, on top of, I mean, I just think that that's like, wow, when you think about today where somebody might go into a makeup chair and have two or three people working on them to get the look they want. Even if it took a few hours, that person is just sitting there getting the makeup done. He's doing all of this, and then turns in a full day, uh, in front of the cameras, which to me is like, wow, that's incredible.Daniel: Definitely, it's like two jobs in one. I imagine for an actor it must be really grueling in adapting to a makeup, especially if it's a heavy makeup where it covers the whole of your head or crushes down your nose, changes your lips, the fumes of chemicals going into your eyes.But then by the end of it, I imagine you are quite exhausted from just your head adapting to that. But then you have to go out and act as well. With Chaney, I suppose he could be more of a perfectionist than take as much time as he wanted within reason. And then once he came to the grueling end of it all, he's actually gotta go out and act countless takes. Probably repair a lot of the makeup as well after, after a couple of takes, certainly with things like the Hunchback or the Phantom of the Opera.John: And, you know, it's not only is he doing the makeup and acting, but in, you know, not so much in London After Midnight, but in Phantom of the Opera, he is quite athletic. When the phantom moves, he really moves. He's not stooped. He's got a lot of energy to him and he's got a makeup on that, unlike the Quasimoto makeup, what he's attempting to do with the phantom is, reductive. He's trying to take things away from his face.Daniel: Mm-hmm.John: And he's using all the tricks he knows and lighting to make that happen, but that means he's gotta hit particular marks for the light to hit it just right. And for you to see that his face is as, you know, skull-like as he made it. When you see him, you know, in London After Midnight as the professor inspector character, he has got a normal full man's face. It's a real face. Much like his son, he had a kind of a full face and what he was able to do with a phantom and take all that away, and be as physical as he was, is just phenomenal. I mean, he was a really, besides the makeup, he was a really good actor.Daniel: Oh, definitely. Jim: I agree with that completely. I kind of in what I watched, I wonder if he was the makeup artist, but not the actor and he did exactly the same makeup on somebody else. And so we had the same image. If those things would've resonated with us the way they do today. I think it had everything to do with who he was and his abilities in addition to the incredible makeup. He was just a tremendous performer.Daniel: Absolutely. He was a true multitasker. In his early days of theater, he was not only an actor, but he was a choreographer. He had a lot of jobs behind the scenes as well. Even when he had become a star in his own time, he would still help actors find the character within them. like Norma Sheera, et cetera. People who were kind of new to the movie making scene and the directors didn't really have that much patience with young actors or actresses. Whereas Chaney, because of his clout in the industry, no one really interfered with Chaney's authority on set. But he would really help actors find the character, find the emotion, 'cause it was just all about how well you translate it over for the audience, as opposed to the actor feeling a certain way that convinces themselves that they're the character. Chaney always tried to get the emotions across to the audience. Patsy Ruth Miller, who played Esemerelda in in the Hunchback, said that Chaney directed the film more than the director actually did.The director was actually even suggested by Chaney. So, Chaney really had his hands everywhere in the making of a film. And Patsy Ruth Miller said the thing that she learned from him was that it's the actress's job to make the audience feel how the character's meant to be feeling, and not necessarily the actor to feel what they should be feeling based on the script and the settings and everything.So I think, that's why Chaney in particular stands out, among all of the actors of his time.John: I think he would've transitioned really well into sound. I think, he had everything necessary to make that transition.Jim: There's one sound picture with him in it, isn't there, doesn't he? Doesn't he play a ventriloquist? John: I believe so.Daniel: Yes, it was a remake of The Unholy Three that he had made in 1925 as Echo the ventriloquist, and the gangster. And yes, by the time MGM had decided to pursue talkies -- also, funny enough, they were one of the last studios to transition to, just because they were the most, one, probably the most dominant studio in all of Hollywood, that they didn't feel the pressure to compete with the burgeoning talkie revolution.So they could afford to take their time, they could release a talkie, but then they could release several silent films and the revenue would still be amazing for the studio. Whereas other studios probably had to conform really quick just because they didn't have the star system, that MGM shamelessly flaunted. And several Chaney films had been transitioned to sound at this point with or without Chaney. But for Chaney himself, because he himself was the special effect, it was guaranteed to be a winner even if it had been an original story that isn't as remembered today strictly because people get to hear the thing that's been denied them for all this time, which is Chaney's voice. And he would've transitioned very easily to talkies is because he had a very rich, deep voice, which, coming from theater, he had to have had, in terms of doing dialogue. He wasn't someone like a lot of younger actors who had started out predominantly in feature films who could only pantomime lines. Chaney actually knew how to deliver dialogue, so it did feel natural and it didn't feel read off the page.And he does about five voices in The Unholy Three. So MGM was truly trying to market, his voice for everything that they could. As Mrs. O'Grady, his natural voice, he imitates a parrot and a girl. And yeah, he really would've flourished in the sound era. Jim: Yeah. John: Any surprises, as it sounds like you were researching this for virtually your whole life, but were there any surprises that you came across, as you really dug in about the film?Daniel: With regards to London after Midnight, the main surprise was undoubtedly the -- probably the star chapter of the whole thing -- which is the nitrate frames from an actual destroyed print of the film itself, which sounds crazy to even being able to say it. But, yeah the nitrate frames themselves presented a quandary of questions that just sent me into a whole nother research mode trying to find out where these impossible images came from, who they belonged to, why they even existed, why they specifically existed.Because, looking for something that, you know, you are told doesn't exist. And then to find it, you kind of think someone is watching over you, planting this stuff as though it's the ultimate tease. To find a foreign movie poster for London After Midnight would be one thing, but to find actual pieces of the lost film itself. It was certainly the most out of body experience I've ever had. Just to find something that I set out to find, but then you find it and you still can't believe that you've actually found it.John: How did you find it?Daniel: I had connections with a few foreign archives who would befriend me and took to my enthusiasm with the silent era, and specifically Chaney and all the stars connected to Chaney films.And, quite early on I was told that there were a few photo albums that had various snippets of silent films from Chaney. They didn't really go into what titles these were, 'cause they were just all a jumble. All I knew is that they came from (garbled) widow. And he had acquired prints of the whole films from various, I suppose, junk stores in Spain.But not being a projectionist, he just purely took them at the face value that he just taken the images and snipping them up and putting them in photo albums, like how you would just do with photographs. And then the rest of the material was sadly discarded by fire. So, all we were left with were these snipped relics, survivors almost to several Chaney lost films. Some of them not lost, but there were films like The Phantom of the Opera in there, the Hunchback of Notre Dame, Mockery, The Unknown. But then there were several lost films such as London After Midnight, the Big City, Thunder. And All the Brothers were Valiant, which are mainly other than Thunder are all totally complete lost films.So, to find this little treasure trove, it was just finding out what the images meant and connecting them up, trying to put them in some sort of chronological scholarly order. Grueling, but it was very fun at the same time. And because I had identified myself with all of these surviving production stills from the film -- a lot of them, which formed the basis of the 2002 reconstruction by Turner Classic Movies -- it didn't take me too long to identify what scenes these surviving nitrate frames were from. But there were several frames which had sets that I recognized and costumes that I recognized, but in the photographic stills, they don't occupy the same space at the same time. So, it's like the two separate elements had crossed over. So that left me with a scholarly, question of what I was looking at. I was able to go back and, sort of rectify certain wrongs that have been accepted throughout the sixties as being the original, say, opening to London after Midnight. So I've, been able to disprove a few things that have made the film, I suppose, a bit more puzzling to audiences. Some audiences didn't really get what the plot was to begin with. So, it was nice to actually put a bit more order to the madness finally.John: At what point did you come across the original treatment and the script?Daniel: The treatment and the script, they came from a private collector who had bought them at auction a number of years ago who I was able to thankfully contact, and they still had the two documents in question. I had learned through Philip J Riley's previous books on London after Midnight that he had the two latter drafts of the script, the second edition and the third draft edition.And, again, the question of why and where. I just always wondered where that first draft of the script was, hoping it would contain new scenes, and open new questions for me and to study. And once I've managed to find those two documents, they did present a lot of new, perspectives and material that added to the fuller plot of the original hypnotist scenario, as opposed to the shortened, time efficient London After Midnight film that was ultimately delivered to audiences. So again, it helped to put a little bit more order to the madness.Jim: You found an actual piece of the film that you were able to, somebody got images from it? And then you found the scripts? But the images are terrific and they're all in your book. They came from what exactly?Daniel: The just below 20 images of the film came from originally a distribution print, a Spanish distribution print, from about 1928. Originally, they were on 35 millimeter indicating that they were from the studio and as is with a lot of silent films that have been found in foreign archives.Normally when a film is done with its distribution, it would have to be returned to the original studio to be destroyed, except for the original negative and a studio print, because there is no reason why a studio would need to keep the thousands of prints when they have the pristine copy in their vault. But, in a lot of smaller theater cases, in order to save money on the postage of the shipping, they would just basically declare that they had destroyed the film on the studio's behalf. There was no record system with this stuff and that's how a lot of these films ended up in the basements of old theaters, which are eventually when they closed, the assets were sold off to collectors or traveling showmen. And eventually these films found their ways into archives or again, private collections. Some of which people know what they have.A lot of times they don't know what they have because they're more obsessed with, naturally, more dedicated to preserving the films of their own culture that was shown at the time, as opposed to a foreign American title, which they probably assume they already have a copy of. But it's how a lot of these films get found.And, with the London After Midnight, example, there were the images that I found spanned the entire seven reels, because they came from different points in the film. It wasn't a single strip of film, of a particular scene. Having thankfully the main source that we have for London After Midnight is the cutting continuity, which is the actual film edited down shot for shot, length for length.And it describes, briefly, although descriptive enough, what is actually in each and every single shot of the film. And comparing the single frame images from the film with this document, I was able to identify at what point these frames came from during the film, which again spanned the entire seven reels, indicating that a complete seven reel version of the film had gotten out under the studio system at one point.As is the case, I'm assuming, 'cause these came from the same collection, I'm assuming it was the same with the other lost Chaney films that again, sadly only survive in snippet form.John: It's like somebody was a collector and his wife said, "well, we don't have room for all this. Just take the frames you like and we'll get rid of the rest of it." So, you mentioned in passing the 2002 reconstruction that Turner Classic Movies did using the existing stills. I don't know if they were working from any of the scripts or not. That was the version I originally saw when I was working on writing, those portions of The Misers Dream that mentioned London After Midnight. Based on what you know now, how close is that reconstruction and where do you think they got it right and where'd they get it wrong?Daniel: The 2002, reconstruction, while a very commendable production, it does stray from the original edited film script. Again, the problem that they clearly faced on that production is that there were not enough photographed scenes to convey all the photographed scenes from the film. So what they eventually fell into the trap of doing was having to reuse the same photograph to sometimes convey two separate scenes, sometimes flipping the image to appear on the opposite side of the camera. And, because of the certain lack of stills in certain scenes cases, they had to rewrite them.And sometimes a visual scene had to have been replaced with an inter-title card, merely describing what had happened or describing a certain period in time, as opposed to showing a photograph of what we're meant to be seeing as opposed to just reading. So, they did the best with what they had.But since then, there have been several more images crop up in private collections or in the archives. So, unless a version of the film gets found, it's certainly an endeavor that could be revisited, I think, and either do a new visual reconstruction of sort, or attempt some sort remake of the film even.Jim: That's an idea. John: They certainly have the materials to do that. I've got an odd question. There's one famous image, a still image from the film, showing Chaney as Professor Burke, and he is reaching out to the man in the beaver hat whose back is to us. Is that a promo photo? Spoiler alert, Burke is playing the vampire in the movie. He admits that that's him. So, he never would've met the character. What is the story behind that photo?Daniel: There are actually three photographs depicting that, those characters that you described. There are the two photographs which show Chaney in the Balfor mansion seemingly directing a cloaked, top hatted figure with long hair, with its back towards us. And then there is another photograph of Chaney in the man in the beaver hat disguise with a seemingly twin right beside him outside of a door.Basically the scenes in the film in which Chaney appear to the Hamlin residents, the people who are being preyed upon by the alleged vampires, the scenes where Chaney and the vampire need to coexist in the same space or either appear to be in the same vicinity to affect other characters while at the same time interrogating others, Chaney's character of Burke employs a series of assistants to either dress up as vampires or at certain times dress up as his version of the vampire to parade around and pretend that they are the man in the beaver hat. Those particular shots, though, the vampire was always, photographed from behind rather than the front.The very famous scene, which was the scene that got first got me interested in London After Midnight, in which the maidm played by Polly Moran is in the chair shrieking at Chaney's winged self, hovering over her. It was unfortunate to me to realize that that was actually a flashback scene told from the maid's perspective.And by the end of the film, the maid is revealed to be an informant of Burke, a secret detective also. So, it's really a strong suspension of disbelief has to be employed because the whole scene of Chaney chasing the maid through the house and appearing under the door, that was clearly just the MGMs marketing at work just to show Chaney off in a bizarre makeup with a fantastic costume.Whereas he is predominantly the detective and the scenes where he's not needed to hypnotize a character in the full vampire makeup, he just employs an assistant who parades around in the house as him, all the times with his back turned so that the audience can't latch on as to who the character actually is, 'cause it must have posed quite a fun confusion that how can Chaney be a detective in this room where the maid has just ran from the Vampire, which is also Chaney?John: Yeah, and it doesn't help that the plot is fairly convoluted anyway, and then you add that layer. So, do you think we'll ever see a copy of it? Do you think it's in a basement somewhere?Daniel: I've always personally believed that the film does exist. Not personally out of just an unfounded fanboy wish, but just based on the evidence and examples of other films that have been found throughout time. Metropolis being probably the most prominent case. But, at one point there was nothing on London After Midnight and now there is just short of 20 frames for the film. So, if that can exist currently now in the year 2023, what makes us think that more footage can't be found by, say, 2030? I think with fans, there's such a high expectation that if it's not found in their own lifetime or in their own convenience space of time, it must not exist. There's still a lot of silent lost treasures that just have not been found at all that do exist though. So, with London After Midnight, from a purely realistic standpoint, I've always theorized myself that the film probably does exist in an archive somewhere, but it would probably be a very abridged, foreign condensed version, as opposed to a pristine 35-millimeter print that someone had ripped to safety stock because they knew in the future the film would become the most coveted of all lost films. So, I do believe it does exist. The whole theory of it existing in a private collection and someone's waiting to claim the newfound copyright on it, I think after December of last year, I think it's finally put that theory to rest. I don't think a collector consciously knows they have a copy of it. So, I think it's lost until found personally, but probably within an archive.Jim: Lost until found. That's a great title for a book. I like that a lot. What do you think of the remake, Mark of the Vampire and in your opinion, what does it tell us about, London After Midnight?Daniel: Well, Mark of the Vampire came about again, part of the Sound Revolution. It was one of those because it was Chaney and Todd Browning's most successful film for the studio. And Browning was currently, being held on a tight leash by MGM because of his shocking disaster film Freaks, I suppose they were a little bit nervous about giving him the reign to do what he wanted again. So, looking through their backlog of smash silent hits, London After Midnight seemed the most logical choice to remake, just simply because it was their most, successful collaboration. Had it have been The Unholy Three, I'm sure? Oh no, we already had The Unholy Three, but had it have been another Browning Chaney collaboration, it might have been The Unknown, otherwise. So, I suppose that's why London After Midnight was selected and eventually turned into Mark of the Vampire. The story does not stray too much from London After Midnight, although they seem to complicate it a little bit more by taking the Burke vampire character and turning it this time into three characters played by three different actors, all of which happened to be in cahoots with one another in trying to solve an old murder mystery.It's very atmospherical. You can definitely tell it's got Todd Browning signature on it. It's more pondering with this one why they just did not opt to make a legit, supernatural film, rather than go in the pseudo vampire arena that they pursued in 1927. Where audiences had by now become accustomed to the supernatural with Dracula and Frankenstein in 1931, which no longer relied on a detective trying to find out a certain mystery and has to disguise themselves as a monster.The monster was actually now a real thing in the movies. So I think if Bela Lugosi had been given the chance to have played a real Count Mora as a real vampire, I think it would've been slightly better received as opposed to a dated approach that was clearly now not the fashionable thing to do.I suppose again, because Browning was treading a very thin line with MGM, I suppose he couldn't really stray too far from the original source material. But I find it a very atmospherical film, although I think the story works better as a silent film than it does as a sound film, because there's a lot of silent scenes in that film, away from owls, hooting and armadillos scurrying about and winds. But I do think, based on things like The Cat and The Canary from 1927 and The Last Warning, I just think that detective sleuth with horror overtones serves better to the silent world than it does the sound world away from the legit, supernatural.John: So, if Chaney hadn't died, do you think he would have played Dracula? Do you think he would've been in Freaks? Would Freaks have been more normalized because it had a big name in it like that?Daniel: It would've been interesting if Chaney had played in Freaks. I think because Todd Browning used the kinds of individuals that he used for Freaks, maybe Chaney would've, for a change, had been the most outta place.John: Mm-hmm.Daniel: I do think he might have played Dracula. I think Universal would've had a hell of a time trying to get him over because he had just signed a new contract with MGM, whereas Todd Browning had transferred over to Universal by 1930 and really wanted to make Dracula for many years and probably discussed it with Chaney as far back as 1920.But certainly MGM would not have permitted Chaney to have gone over to Universal, even for a temporary period, without probably demanding a large piece of the action, in a financial sense, because Universal had acquired the rights to Dracula at this point. And, based on the stage play that had, come out on Broadway, it was probably assured that it was going to be a giant moneymaker, based on the success of the Dracula play.But because of Cheney's, status as a, I suppose retrospectively now, as a horror actor, he was probably the first person to be considered for that role by Carl Laemmle, senior and Junior for that matter. And Chaney gone by 1930, it did pose a puzzle as to who could take over these kinds of roles.Chaney was probably the only one to really successfully do it and make the monster an actual box office ingredient more than any other actor at that time, as he did with. Phantom, Blind Bargain and London After Midnight. So, I think to have pursued Chaney for a legit, supernatural film would've had enormous possibilities for Browning and Chaney himself.You can kind of see a trend, a trilogy forming, with Browning, from London After Midnight, in which he incorporates things he used in Dracula in London After Midnight. So, he kind of had this imagery quite early on. So, to go from – despite it's not in that order -- but to have London After Midnight, Mark of the Vampire, and he also did Dracula, he clearly was obsessed with the story. And I think Chaney was probably the, best actor for someone like Browning who complimented his way of thinking and approach to things like silence. As opposed to needing dialogue all the time, loud commotions. So, I think they dovetailed each other quite well, and that's why their ten year director actor relationship was as groundbreaking as it was.Jim: If the film does surface, if we find the film, what do you think people, how are they gonna react to the movie when they see it? What do you think? What's gonna be the reaction if it does surface?Daniel: Well, the lure of London After Midnight, the power in the film is its lost status rather than its widespread availability. I think it could never live up to the expectation that we've built up in our heads over the past 40 to 60 years. It was truly people, fans like Forrest J Ackerman that introduced and reignited the interest in Chaney's career by the late fifties and 1960s. That's when London After Midnight started to make the rounds in rumor, the rumors of a potential print existing, despite the film had not long been destroyed at that point. So, it was always a big mystery. There were always people who wanted to see the film, but with no access to home video, or et cetera, the only way you could probably see the film would've been at the studio who held everything. And, by the time the TV was coming out, a lot of silent films didn't make it to TV. So again, it has just germinated in people's heads probably in a better form than what they actually remembered. But, the true reality of London After Midnight is one more closer to the ground than it is in it's people are probably expecting to see something very supernatural on par with Dracula, whereas it's more so a Sherlock Holmes story with mild horrorish overtones to it that you can kind of see better examples of later on in Dracula in 1930 and in Mark of the Vampire.It's a film purely, I think for Lon Chaney fans. For myself, having read everything I can on the film, everything I've seen on the film, I personally love silent, detective stories, all with a touch of horror. So, I personally would know what I am going in to see. I'm not going in to see Chaney battling a Van Helsing like figure and turn to dust at the very end or turning to a bat. I'm going to see a detective melodrama that happens to have what looks like a vampire. So, it certainly couldn't live up to the expectations in people's minds and it's probably the only film to have had the greatest cheapest, marketing in history, I would think. It's one of those films, if it was discovered, you really would not have to do much marketing to promote it.It's one of those that in every fanzine, magazine, documentary referenced in pop. It has really marketed itself into becoming what I always call the mascot of the genre. There are other more important lost films that have been lost to us. The main one again, which has been found in its more complete form, was Metropolis, which is a better movie.But unlike Metropolis, London After Midnight has a lot more famous ingredients to it. It has a very famous director. It has a very famous actor whose process was legendary even during then. And it's actually the only film in which he actually has his make-up case make a cameo appearance by the very end. And it goes on the thing that everyone in every culture loves, which is the vampirism, the dark tales and folklore. So, when you say it, it just gets your imagination going. Whereas I think if you are watching it, it's probably you'll be looking over the projector to see if something even better is going to happen.The film had its mixed reactions when it originally came out. People liked it because it gave them that cheap thrill of being a very atmospherical, haunted house with the creepy figures of Chaney walking across those dusty hallways. But then the more important story is a murder mystery.It's not Dracula, but it has its own things going for it. I always kind of harken it back to the search for the Lochness Monster or Bigfoot. It has more power in your mind than it does in an aquarium or in a zoo. Hearing someone say that they think they saw something moving around in Lochness, but there's no photographic evidence, you just have the oral story, that is much more tangible in a way than actually seeing it in an aquarium where you can take it for granted. And it's the same with London After Midnight, and I think that's why a lot of hoaxster and pranksters tend to say that they have seen London After Midnight more than any other lost film.Jim: For a film that I would say the majority of the world does not have any frame of reference, and I'm using myself as the sort of blueprint for that, no frame of reference for this film. That image is iconic in a way that has been, I mean, it at first glance could be Jack the Ripper. I was talking to John before we started the podcast, once I locked in on that image, then I started to think, oh, the ghosts in Disney's Haunted Mansion, there's a couple of ghosts that have elements of that. I mean, it was so perfectly done, even though we don't, I bet you nine out ten people don't know the title London After Midnight, but I bet you seven outta ten people know this image.Daniel: Definitely, it has certainly made its mark on pop culture, again, I think because I think it's such a beautiful, simplistic design. Everything from the simplistically [garbled] to the bulging eyes and the very nice top hat as well, which is in itself today considered a very odd accessory for a grotesque, vampire character.But it's one of those things that has really carried over. It's influenced what the movies and artists. It was one of the influences for the Babadook creation for that particular monster. It was an influence on the Black Phone. It's just a perfect frame of reference for movie makers and sculptors and artists to keep taking from.John: Yep. It's, it'll live long beyond us. Daniel, one last question. I read somewhere or heard somewhere. You're next gonna tackle James Whale, is that correct? Daniel: James Whale is a subject, again, coming from, I happen to come from the exact same town that he was born and raised in, in Dudley, England. So, it's always been a subject close to home for me, which is quite convenient because I love his movies. So, I'm hoping to eventually, hopefully plan a documentary feature on him, based on a lot of family material in the surrounding areas that I was able to hunt down, and forgotten histories about him and just put it together in some form, hopefully in the future.John: That would be fantastic, and we'll have you back at that point.Jim: So, let's pretend for a minute that the audience is me, and they'd have absolutely no idea who James Whale is or what he's done. Just for a minute, let's pretend.John: Pretend that you don't know that?Jim: Yeah.Daniel: James Whale is the most known for his work for directing Frankenstein with Boris Karloff in 1931. But he also directed probably some of the most important horror films that have ever existed in the history of motion pictures. The Old Dark House, which can be cited with its very atmospherical, and black comedy tones, The Invisible Man with Claude Rains and Gloria Stewart in 1933. And, the most important one, which is probably the grand jewel in the whole of the Universal Monsters Empire, which is Bride of Frankenstein in 1935, which is the ultimate, example of everything that he had studied, everything that he'd learned with regards to cinema and comedy, life and death, and just making a very delicious cocktail of a movie in all of its black comedy, horrific, forms that we're still asking questions about today. One of his first films that he did was for Howard Hughes Hell's Angels, in which -- because he'd coming over from theater -- when again, films in America were taken off with the sound revolution. They all of a sudden needed British directors to translate English dialogue better than the actors could convey.So, James Whale was one of many to be taken over to America when he had a hit play called Journeys End, which became the most successful war play at that point. And he did his own film adaptation of Journeys End. He also did a really remarkable film called Showboat, which is another very iconic film.And again, someone with James Whale's horror credentials, you just think, how could someone who directed Frankenstein directed Showboat? But, clearly a very, very talented director who clearly could not be pigeonholed at the time as a strictly horror director, despite it is the horror films in which he is remembered for, understandably so, just because they contain his very individualistic wit and humor and his outlooks on life and politics. And being an openly gay director at the time, he really was a force unto himself. He was a very modern man even then.

Show Highlights: Daniel Oh's corporate throughline to AgCertain. [00:03:33] Explore the need for de-commoditization in ag. [00:09:14] Specialty economies of scale explained with examples. [00:14:15] Learn about AgCertain's B2B brand safety assurance. [00:18:13] A deep dive into trust risk over economic risk in ag. [00:24:38] How to approach organizational size as a leader. [00:32:39] Is large vs. small a true binary in company size? [00:40:52] Discover a wealth of wisdom on risk management. [00:43:21] If you are interested in connecting with Joe, go to LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joemosher/, or schedule a call at www.moshercg.com.

In this week's episode, we've got Daniel Oh from BTSA giving us the 411 on all the dye & wash trends coming up in the 2024 fashion scene. He highlights the growing adventurousness in color choices, such as lavenders and neons, and the demand for vintage looks achieved through techniques like potassium spray. He also covers the benefits of piece dyeing for bulk orders and the importance of sampling to navigate the temperamental nature of natural fibers. Tune in for an informative listen that touches on both the creative and technical aspects of textile dyeing!

On episode 38 of the Innovators Podcast, Alison Doyle, Associate Director of Iowa State University Research Park, interviewed Daniel Oh, President & CEO of AgCertain. Throughout the podcast they discuss AgCertain development, resources for companies in Central Iowa, and placemaking. Thank you for listening and we hope you enjoy!

What you'll learn in this episode: Why preparation is the key to a successful career in law How Daniel has won some of the largest verdicts in history, even in supposedly impossible cases How making room for creativity can lead to better case outcomes Why focusing on current clients can be more beneficial than focusing on getting new business How to maximize your networking and business development efforts About Daniel Callahan Daniel Callahan opened his own law office on St. Patrick's Day in 1984. From there, he distinguished himself as one of the top trial attorneys in California and has repeatedly been recognized by his peers for his incredible accomplishments. Mr. Callahan was the winner of the prestigious OCTLA Trial Lawyer of the Year Award three times, in 2000, 2004, and 2012. Since founding Callahan & Blaine, Mr. Callahan has won many jury trials and obtained scores of seven and eight-figure settlements on behalf of his clients. Callahan Consulting: Callahan Consulting | Law Firm Consulting by Daniel Callahan - Instagram: Callahan Consulting Instagram Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dancallahanconsulting Transcript: Daniel Callahan is a legendary California lawyer who has achieved record-setting verdicts for clients. What was the secret to his success? Preparation. By not putting off what he could do now, Daniel had the mental space to think about his cases creatively—and that led to astounding verdicts in seemingly impossible cases. He joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about his tips for building a network; why current clients are more valuable than new ones; and why client bills are an underused selling tool. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Welcome to the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Daniel Callahan. He is founder and head of one of California's top litigation firms and has been a winner of the prestigious Orange Country Trial Lawyer of the Year three times. We'll learn all about his career path and why he thinks his firm is successful. Daniel, welcome to the program. Daniel:  Thank you very much, Sharon. It's nice to be here. Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your career path. Daniel:  It's an unusual path, Sharon. When I left high school, I did not go to college directly. I went to work in construction because I didn't really apply myself much during school. I graduated fifth from the bottom in my class. So, I worked in construction. I was doing that. A buddy of mine got me a job, and I'm chopping trees down with my McCulloch chainsaw, and that turned me into a wood chopper. I'm thinking, “What am I doing here?” I saw my buddy. “I know why he's here, because he's standing next to his dad who got him the job. My mother and father told me I'd be a good lawyer. Maybe I want to try going to college after all.” Then, when I went to college, I thought, “O.K., now I'm with all those smart kids, so I have to work really hard.” I put them on a pedestal and worked really hard, and as a result, I had straight As through college. When I went to law school, I thought, “O.K., you were pretty good at college, but now you're really against all those smart guys.” Again, I put them on a pedestal, worked really hard and finished in the top 10 and editor of the law review. Then I went to law firms. I was recruited by several law firms. I went to Hawaii to practice initially with the oldest and largest firm in the state. I was there for two years. I learned a lot. I came back to California with another large law firm for another three years, and then I opened up my own shop. I was able to bring in more business than most people. I had enough to keep myself and two other associates busy, so I thought, “Maybe now is a good time to go out on my own.” I did that on St. Patrick's Day of 1984. Sharon: Wow! Let me go back for a minute. Why did your parents think you'd be a good lawyer? Daniel:  I think I was a bit argumentative. I could be kind of persuasive and argumentative at the same time. Sharon: Did you decide to go to Hawaii because that's where you wanted to be? Daniel:  No, not at all. I had never given a thought to Hawaii, but when they came to interview at the school, I accepted the interview and met with them. I got a call back. Two days later, they invited me to spend five days on the islands. They put me up at the Ilikai and gave me a car. In three days, you get to know the firm, and then you have two days to get used to Hawaii. It was so great! I took the job, but Hawaii wasn't really for me. I preferred being back in California, where I went to law school at UC Davis. I didn't go back to Davis, but I went to Newport Beach, California. Sharon: Was it more formal? Daniel:  It was a very large firm, and I would not say they were formal. They worked really hard, but they also played pretty hard. I got a good grounding from them. Sharon: It sounds like you have that, between everything you did. Tell us how that led to a couple of your biggest wins, because they're big. Daniel:  One of the things I learned from my mentor at Allen Matkins was you cannot be faulted for working too hard. Remember, I always put the opposition on a pedestal anyway. I want to be really prepared. They taught me how to be prepared, how not to put things off until tomorrow if you can do it today, because you don't know what's coming tomorrow. You may have an ex parte hearing; you may have something coming up. If you planned on doing this but you put it off, now you're crowded, and you can't do your best job. That's why I have been so successful. I almost over-prepare. When I go to trial, I prepare. First of all, someone else usually works up the depositions and the discovery and all that. They bring it to me and give me an idea which depos to read first. I read all the depos. I summarize the depos myself. I match them with all the exhibits that I read. Then I prepare the examinations of each witness, both our side and their side, linking them to the exhibits, and then I practice the exams. I work with the person who's in charge of my AV. When I want to do an exam, I want this coming up, and he's showing me how to put it up on the screen. When we go through these, after a while he knows everything I'm about to do, so you can almost think as I'm thinking. That's because of preparation. I also prepare my own opening statements. I go through them two or three times the day before or two days before it's scheduled. You don't want to do it too much because it gets kind of old. It still has to have some life to it, but you want to do it a few times to get the bugs out. If I have a group of people sitting in a conference room listening to me, they're instructed not to say a word during the opening, but after they can critique me. There is many a good idea I've gotten from those individuals. Some ideas I didn't think much of, and I did not incorporate them. Many ideas I did incorporate. When I walk into trial, I feel like the 800-pound gorilla because I'm really prepared. I have all the exams for the entire case done. The only thing I don't have done is a closing argument, and that's going to depend on the testimony. The attorneys who are listening to this should order a transcript of the trial and have a daily transcript. By the way, you should have it certified. If you don't have it certified, the judge may not allow you to use it. I believe in quoting the witnesses I cross-examine heavily. I believe in doing video depositions. You ask the same question three or four times. You get different responses. You pick out the response you like the best, and then you put a number of clips together and show that either during opening statement or right as you call that witness. Before you even ask him the question, you can play from his deposition. By that time, you've destroyed him in the eyes of the jury before he even gets to open his mouth. That is a helpful tip. I used that in one case called Beckman Coulter vs. Flextronics. That was a $2 million breach of contract case. We discovered a $300,000 fraud and we went to trial. Seven weeks into this trial, I amended the complaint to conform to proof that I had already elicited from the mouths of the defendants. I added two causes of action for economic duress, which is a subspecies of fraud. The jury came back and gave me $2 million on the first claim and $300,000 for fraud on the second, plus $1 million and a quarter of punitive. On the third cause, they gave me $180 million in punitive damages, and on the fourth $750 million in punitive damages, for a total of $934 million, which was and still remains the highest jury verdict in Orange County history. It was the highest in the United States up until about November of that year. How did that happen? Preparation, preparation, preparation. When you do that, when you are prepared, you can allow yourself to think, “What creative way can I go about doing this? How can I do something different?” By example, I had a smaller case called Radco v. Diamond Walnut. Radco was a producer of urethane foam, and they sent it to work sites in California in 55-gallon drums. They sold it to a subcontractor, but Radco wasn't paid. So, Radco calls me and says, “Dan, how do I get a mechanic's lien?” I said, “Well, in California, first you have to do a 20-day notice.” “A 20-day what?” “You have to give the owner notice ahead of time that you're providing materials to the job site, so he knows to get you paid. Where are these 55-gallon drums?” He said, “They're locked in a warehouse.” “Well, can you go get them, drive them around the block, release possession and then do a 20-day notice?” He has to do the notice within 20 days of releasing possession. “No, it's locked in a warehouse.” I thought through my conversation with him. He said he had sold to Midstate, a subcontractor who could not pay their bills as due. Well, that's the definition of insolvency. I remember from my days in law school studying the UCC that if you sold something to someone on credit while they're insolvent, you can reclaim those goods and get constructive possession. So, that's what we did. I got constructive possession back, even though the drums never left the warehouse. I then wrote a letter releasing that possession, served a 20-day notice and went for my mechanic's lien. The in-house counsel of Diamond Walnut said, “That is ridiculous.” There was no precedent for it, but I argued it to the judge in Stockton, and he agreed with me. As a result, Diamond Walnut had to pay twice for those materials. That is being creative. Sharon, if you don't mind, I think creativity is so important. You have to allow yourself enough time to be creative. Here's an example. I had a client who's an SBA lender. He lent money to this company in Orange County who had acquired all of this collateral, which the lender had a security interest in. The lender was not getting paid. He was afraid that if they did the normal due demand letter, filed a complaint, waited 30 days, all this collateral was going to wind up in Mexico. There are two ways to repossess collateral. There's a self-help repossession under UCC 9-503. That's what I did, but in order to make it look better, I put it on 14x11 paper, legal-size paper. I made it look like a form, although I filled it in with the correct statute, and then I had my signature notarized at the bottom, so now it really looks official. Then I went to the police department and said, “I need someone to come with me to make sure there's no breach of the peace.” He said, “I'll come with you to make sure you don't breach the peace.” This was back in the early 80s, when not everybody had a cell phone with a video camera. So, I hired a guy from Los Angeles to come film, and the three of us approached the back of the warehouse. There was an officer from the Irvine Police Department, myself and the videographer. The warehouse doors were all open, and I said, “Get that guy.” When I approached, I said, “My name is Dan Callahan and I represent the SBA. We're here to repossess a collateral of loans to the SBA. We're going to take the CEO down. If you want to be named in the lawsuit, you can go down too, but if you help me, if you identify the collateral right now, then we will let you go.” He went around identifying all the collateral that belonged to the SBA. One of the pieces of collateral was a forklift truck. We had a flatbed and a forklift, and we're loading all this stuff up on the flatbed. All of a sudden, our forklift ran out of gas. Fortunately, they had a forklift, so we picked up our forklift and everything else and left. We were out of there within about an hour. Whenever somebody came from the back room to look, we had the videographer shoot them, “I got you.” We went back to the office and had a beer with the client. I got a call from the lawyer representing the debtor, and he said, “Is it true all they had to do was say no?” I said, “Yeah, that's true.” He said, “Oh, my god. Congratulations on your sting.” The reason I tell you that, Sharon, is because that shows some creativity. On the other one, I grafted the UCC onto the mechanic's lien law. This one I went in on a self-help repossession, but I did a document. That is legal but somewhat deceiving. It looked like a court document almost. So, there are different things you can do creatively within the law that can get you results. Let me tell you one more story. There's a case I had where other lawyers had turned the case down. It's a personal injury lawsuit. There are these two women who were running in the bike lane, and they got hit by an uninsured drunk hit-and-run driver who abandoned his car. He was caught nine days later in a laundromat with beers in his pocket. He was sentenced to four years. The other lawyers who looked at this thought, “There's no money. Who are we going to sue? An uninsured hit-and-run driver?” I went to the site itself and looked where it happened, and I noticed the bike lane. There are regulations for this in California. Usually, the bike lane is about four-and-a-half feet wide. This lane is 11 feet wide. Also in California, it has to be a properly marked bike lane, and this was not. Ordinarily the government would have immunity, but only if they follow the engineer's advice. They had done it correctly many years before, but there had been a landslide covering the road. When they redid it and repaved it, they didn't do the bike lane properly. They didn't do it the way the engineer had told them many years before, so they did not have governmental immunity. So, I sued the City of Dana Point and demanded $50 million, which was the limit of their insurance. They offered me $30 million. I told everybody in my office, “We're not even talking about settlement. There is no settlement. You're not taking your foot off the gas.” For anybody who's listening to this, once people start talking about a settlement, there may be an inclination to take your foot off the gas. Don't do it. Just keep it there. On the Friday before the Monday trial, they said, “O.K., we're in. $50 million.” I got a call from an organization that tracks this, and they said, “Dan, that $50 million settlement is the highest personal injury settlement in the history of the United States.” Sharon: Wow! Daniel:  That's what I said, wow! They also said, “Oh, by the way, you also have the third highest.” I had one for $28 million. As it turns out, $28 million was third. $29 million had been the highest and became second. My $50 million took over. I don't know where that stands right now, but I'm sure it's pretty high up there. Sharon: You can tell just by looking at your website and all the badges and awards. Let me ask you this because you alluded to it. You said you do consulting. Daniel:  Yes. Sharon: Can you tell us a little about that? Daniel:  Yeah, certainly. I was a founder and managing partner of Callahan and Blaine, 28 attorneys in Santa Ana that do business litigation and personal injury. Now, I'm the CEO of Callahan Consulting. I consult with partners and associates from Callahan and Blaine, but also with other attorneys throughout the nation, giving trial practice and strategy advice. Also, I will be contacted by clients that are looking for a particular type of lawyer in a given community. Just last week, somebody needed a bankruptcy lawyer in Michigan. I researched it, and I found two really good lawyers. I presented them to the client. I arranged for a conference call between the client and each of these lawyers so the client could make up their own mind as to who they wanted to retain. I do this all throughout the United States. Usually, I get about one case a day that I'm trying to help somebody with. So, it's two things. I mentor attorneys, as I used to mentor the attorneys in my firm, and I also help clients find the attorney in the right specialty in their community that can help them. The way I'm compensated for this is normal. I get a referral fee when I set up a client with an attorney. I bill by the hour, and the hourly rate goes down. If you use more than five hours, then the hourly rate goes down. That's just getting at the strategy, how to work creatively to get the best result. One of the things that's helped me the most is looking outside the box. That's because I give myself enough time to be able to have that luxury, and that's because I don't put off until tomorrow what I can do today. It's the lessons you learn in your first few years. You get burned once and then you'll know. I was in trial one time, and I asked an associated to do a request for experts or expert designation. I came back from trial and asked, “Did you do it?” He says, “No, I didn't have time.” I go into the court to try to get relief the next day and he said, “No, it's too late.” So, I went to trial. I still won. I had to take their expert and turn him into my expert. So, you don't put things off. You get things done. Sharon: Would you say that's something you practice in the rest of your life as well as in the law? Daniel:  Yes, I would. I try to teach my children. I have my daughter, Caitlin, and my son, Michael, neither of whom are lawyers, but it's been drilled into them about preparation and its success and results. I think I practice that in many areas of my life. Sharon: Do you think you need to have these big wins to be successful? Can you be a successful personal injury firm without huge or noticeable wins? Daniel:  Oh yes, you can be successful without huge wins. Many attorneys spend a lot of time trying to bring in new clients, as well they should, but what you should also do is pay particular attention to the clients you have. Make sure you communicate often and clearly with your clients. Make sure they're comfortable with you at all times so they know what's coming and what to expect. When that happens, they're out there in the community talking about you, and then you get referrals through them. You build your base by working with existing clients who then will be more than happy to refer your business. If they perceive you as someone who cares about them, then they care about you. That's how I built my business. It was mostly from referrals from clients. Then it became referrals from other lawyers I knew, and then, because of the big victories, it became referrals from lawyers I never met but knew if they came to me, they were going to get a referral fee. It's better to get a referral fee on a $10 million victory than a referral fee on a $1 victory. So, people come to me for that reason, and I try my very best to deliver. Sharon: On your website you have both videos and a blog. Is it necessary to have both? Daniel:  10 years ago, I would have said no, but now, yes. Videos are very important. People now want to see a video. When they go to your website, they want to see a video, not just a bunch of doubletalk. They want to see what the person is like and how he reacts on film. Do they like him? Do they not? Certainly, you're going to pitch your wins and tell them what you can do for them. For blogs, it's the same thing. Blogs are very helpful. People are interested in listening or watching or reading to see if they can learn something. To get better at the very beginning, I would go to a lot of CEB courses because I figured I'm going to go there; I'm going to learn. I will always pick up something, and in the meantime, I'll meet a couple of people. We'll exchange business cards and I'll expand my network. You're in the back of the room, you get a cup of coffee, your doughnut, whatever they happen to have, and you meet people. You expand your network. Nowadays with the internet, people are expanding their networks all the time. But I find if it's a more personal touch, not just somebody I met on LinkedIn, it goes further. So, yes, I believe videos are important, blogs are important, personal touch is important. Get out there and meet people. Get out there and tell people what you do. If it's just a client, nobody's going to know about you. You've got to go ahead and show a little bit of what you have to offer. It's always a good idea to tell stories. When you tell a story to a prospective client about a case you won, that prospective client is putting himself or herself in the shoes of your client, thinking, “Damn, that's good. I wish that was me. I wish my attorney would do that for me.” I would go to parties and just talk to people at parties. That's how I would meet a lot of people. I'd tell a few stories and get them encouraged. Your light is always on. When you want to bring in business, your light should be on 24/7. If you go out somewhere, keep in mind you are a lawyer. If you encounter somebody, you should be able to tell them about it and tell them what you can do for them. You don't want to be pushy, of course, but when the opportunity comes, you are a salesman. Some lawyers I used to work with felt embarrassed about going out and trying to get business. They want to be a pure lawyer where they just research and write and argue to the court, but they don't go out to try to get business. Well, that person's not going to advance. That person is not going to advance in a partnership, because partners tend to look at what this person brings to the table, how much business he has, what kind of book he or she has. You have to always be developing that book, not just so you rise in the partnership, but also for your own well-being. If you have a large book of business with reliable clients, then you have a very good platform for further development. Sharon: Is that something a non-lawyer or a marketing director, let's say, should be saying to a lawyer? Have your light on all the time? Daniel:  Yes, definitely. 24/7, have your light on. Be awake. Be alert. You picked a profession. I'm very fortunate because I'm good at bringing in business, but I'm also good at trying cases. In fact, I'm really good at managing a law firm with the numbers and everything, what to spend money on, what not to spend money on and how to spend the money. I do all three, which is a gift. I didn't know I had that gift. When I used to chop trees down, I was a McCulloch chainsaw guy. It's something you learn and develop. If you work at it, you'll get it. Sharon: Do you think it's possible to learn the things you're talking about? How to develop business, how to manage a law firm, that sort of thing?  Daniel:  Obviously, when you manage a law firm, if you start out as a solo, it's not as difficult as stepping in and managing a 28-attorney law firm. There are classes you can take. You can also hire one or two competent people for your office. One is in charge of your accounting; one is in charge of secretarial. Then just manage it. Just make sure you get the bills out on time. Now, here's something. Here's basic 101. If you're working and billing by the hour, when do you write your time down on your timesheet? When you do the work. It's amazing how some people can leave at the end of the day and not have their timesheet filled out. They figure they're going to do it later. I've had attorneys working for me, and I just can't believe it. “What are you doing? Two weeks and you have not billed any time.” “No, but I have all my notes. I'm going to be doing my time.” That's ridiculous. You need to do it on a daily basis because when you do it on a daily basis, you can actually capture all the time. If you look back a week later, you really can't capture it, and you can't be specific enough to sell your information on the bill. When you do a bill, you should write the bill in such a way that the person reading it thinks, “Wow, that's a lot of work.” Don't give them shorthand, “A little research.” You should say what you've done so they know, “Man, that's a lot. O.K., I can see why they took an hour and a half,” or however long. Your bills need to be a persuasive piece of work, and when they're sent out, they have to be sent out timely. When you do something good for a client, they appreciate it, but the level of appreciation goes down over time. Let's say you do something for him or her on November 1. You get a bill out on December 10, and they go to pay it maybe in January. By January, their appreciation of what you did goes down. “Oh, really? I guess I could have done that myself.” Clients often appreciate you more at the beginning when you do the work, but if you delay too long—and some people delay a month or two months before sending out their bill. When they do send out their bill, it's not written like it's going to make you perspire to read it. It has to be written in a sales manner. You want the guy to read it, appreciate the work and pay the bill. Get it to him quickly and get it to him clearly. Sharon: It's something that persuades them. Do you think the aspect of business development—because that's what we're so involved in—can be taught? Daniel:  Yes, it can be taught. There are DVDs on it. There are many people that will try to teach you how to develop business. There are a lot of them out there. I've spoken to several over the years, and some of them are worth their salt. Sometimes I get a good tip or an idea. People will say you should have a 10-second commercial. When somebody says, “What do you do?” in an elevator, you can summarize what you do within the time it takes you to go from the 10th floor to the ground floor. That's called an elevator commercial. Those are helpful, but if people still have business cards now, you also need to exchange business cards or email or text or something, and then follow up on that meeting right away. Whoever you just met, wherever it was, just say, “It was a pleasure meeting you. I enjoyed learning about your son, your daughter, your business,” or whatever it had been, and then note that and follow up. Like I tell my son, you should log everybody you've met and put them into a calendar so you follow up in a week. Maybe it's, “Hey, by the way, I was thinking about you. I saw this may be relevant to your situation. Here's an email.” Maybe it's a phone call. It's just doing that again and again, and now you're expanding your network intelligently. You're not just getting somebody's business card and hoping he calls you. You're reaching out and talking to them about something that is of interest to them. When you talk to them, you don't want to just talk about yourself. You want to find out about their business, their family and what they do for entertainment or travel, whatever you can know. Then, as soon as you get back to your office or home, log all that in and calendar it to get back to this individual. If you do that, you can commit to making three—I'd say five, but even four—phone calls a day to people you met. Or if not a phone call, an email. It doesn't take that much time, but your network will grow huge. I don't know how many working days there are in a year, but if you made four phone calls or emails every working day, by the end of that year, you would have a network that's huge, which can pay off for you. When you want to bring in business, you've just got to reach out and touch somebody. Sharon: I would agree with you, but do you think it's true for the people who would rather research? They like the law, but they like it from a more academic perspective, let's say. Daniel:  Yes, I think they have to learn to adapt. I like the law. I like research and writing and arguing; however, I also like to have a comfortable lifestyle where I have a book of business that I can always rely on. That way, I'm more likely to make partner because I have a book of business. Also, I'm more likely to get more and more business. The people that say, “I love the beauty of the law,” that's good. We all do, but if that's all you've got, when hard times come, you may not be with the firm much longer. You can find dime-a-dozen lawyers that love the law, who think they're really good at it, that don't go out and do anything to generate business. That's not your best way to be a successful attorney.  Sharon: What is your one piece of advice to be a successful attorney? You may have said it already, but what advice would you give a new lawyer? Daniel:  Don't underestimate your opposition. In fact, you may want to put them on a pedestal and fight the guy on the pedestal. If you put the guy on a pedestal, you're preparing for Goliath. If Goliath doesn't show up, but you're ready for Goliath, you're going to have success. The keystone is prepare and don't delay. Don't put it off until tomorrow. Get it done, and get it done now. If you have an idea for something you think may work, write it down. When you have time to look at it more, maybe you can incorporate that into your action as a plaintiff or a defendant. By the way, I represent plaintiffs and defendants. I've only told you about the plaintiff wins. I have numerous defense wins, and I practice the same methodology. Sharon: Hopefully we can hear about those at another time. I want to thank you for being here today. Thank you so much. Daniel:  Sharon, I appreciate it. I'm happy to be here. Call me again anytime.

On this edition of the Iowa Business Report: The Midwest economic outlook is not as rosy as it was earlier this year. Creighton University economist Dr. Ernie Goss explains why.U.S. Deputy Commerce Secretary Don Graves talks about the third quarter economic report. And in this week's "Business Profile", we'll reintroduce you to Daniel Oh of AgCertain.For more, go to totallyiowa.com and click on the "radio programs" link.    Presented by Advance Iowa, on line at advanceiowa.com; search for "Advance Iowa" on LinkedIn and Facebook, as well.Additional support comes from the Iowa Business Council, online at iowabusinesscouncil.org.  

In this episode, host Mary Barroll explores a bit of a mystery: Why, with incredibly sophisticated technology within easy reach, are some nonprofits still struggling to adapt and take advantage of digital tools? Is it simply a question of cost? Or is something more fundamental at work here, such as a lack of skills and understanding of how digital technology can help charitable organizations better connect with donors and volunteers? Listen to the full episode to hear our guests discuss these questions and more, and to learn how your organization can work towards digital transformation.Meet Our Guests in Order of Appearance ·        Marina Glogovac, former CEO of CanadaHelps·        Aine McGlynn, Nonprofit Technology Expert, Aine McGlynn Consulting·        Katie Gibson, Vice President, Strategy and Partnerships at CIO Strategy Council and the Centre for Nonprofit Digital Resilience ·        Daniel Oh, Country Manager (Interim) at Sage Canada·        Joy Robson, Co-Founder of Data for Good·        Matt Ambrose, Partner at BDO Canada·        Wen-Chih O'Connell, Executive Director of PayPal Giving Fund Canada About your HostMary Barroll, President of CharityVillage, is an online business executive and lawyer with a background in media, technology and IP law. A former CBC journalist and independent TV producer, in 2013 she was appointed General Counsel & VP Media Affairs at CharityVillage.com, Canada's largest job portal for charities and not for profits in Canada, and then President in 2021. Mary is also President of sister company, TalentEgg.ca, Canada's No.1, award-winning job board and online career resource that connects top employers with top students and grads.Resources from this EpisodeWe've gathered the resources from this episode into one helpful list:·        Future of Giving: Online Across Generations (PayPal Giving Fund)·        Digital Transformation for Nonprofits (CharityVillage eLearning Course)·        Are Canada's Charities Ready for Digital Transformation? (CanadaHelps Digital Skills Survey 2021)·        Grow Together: How digital transformation empowers Canadian nonprofit organizations to embrace change (Sage Canada)·        A Guide for Not-for-Profit's Digital Transformation (BDO Canada)·        Google Workspace for Nonprofits·        Microsoft 365 Nonprofit SolutionsLearn more and listen to the full interviews with the guests here. 

Olivia a new restaurant helmed by veteran Los Angeles chef Mario Alberto and partner Daniel Oh, is now open in the heart of Koreatown. The food is PHENOMENAL! Take a listen to what they have going on.

In this episode, our guest is Daniel Oh a Group Creative Director of copy at Marina Maher Communications where he helps lead the creative function of the agency. Dan is uniquely versed in communicating with virtually everyone with buying power and/or influence: consumers, businesses, healthcare professionals, educators, prospective donors, government officials, and the media. He has built his career-launching products, devising awareness campaigns, and setting creative strategies for brands of all shapes and sizes—CPG, healthcare, non-profit, spirits, energy, and advocacy organizations. Dan spends any free time he can get his hands on, writing short stage plays, mentoring youth, and teaching his own kids the mindset to be the world's best. MMC: hellommc.com _____ E-mail Us: asiansinadvertising@gmail.com Shop: asiansinadvertising.com/shop Learn More: asiansinadvertising.com --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/asiansinadvertising/support

On this edition of the Iowa Business Report: Chris Lampe, program manager of STAR4D within the Iowa Waste Reduction Center, talks about the unique niche they've established in Cedar Falls that has led to training protocols shared across the country.Tourism and the West Branch economy may get a boost from extensive remodeling and enhancements at the Herbert Hoover Presidential Library & Museum.And in this week's "Business Profile", we talk with Daniel Oh of AgCertain.For more, go to totallyiowa.com and click on the "radio programs" link.    Presented by Advance Iowa, on line at advanceiowa.com. Search for "Advance Iowa" on LinkedIn and Facebook, as well.

Each week, the Iowa Business Report radio program features a Business Profile segment, introducing listeners to an Iowa-based company or business. In this extended IBR Business Profile, we meet Daniel Oh, president and CEO of AgCertain, on line at agcertain.com. The Central Iowa-based company focuses on food, agriculture and bio-based product development, manufacturing and marketing.He spoke with Jeff Stein for Iowa Business Report program number 21-35 via Zoom on August 23, 2021; this podcast contains the full conversation.    

In this episode, I have a guest who discusses nutritional AI that you can eat. Grant Everybody, this is Grant Larsen. Welcome to another episode of ClickAI radio. Wow. Today I have in the house with me. Mr. Daniel DeMillard, he is the CTO of FoodSpace, and I am just honored for the opportunity to meet him and to get to hear his story and what he and his organization has been doing with AI. Alright, let's jump into this. Okay, so, Daniel, first of all, welcome. Daniel Thanks for having me, Grant. Great to be here. Grant It is, it is really great to have you here and to have another another patriots in AI, right things that you guys are doing, as I got to know you. And before we started this recording, I was fascinated with the kind of work that you guys are doing and where you focus your use and application of AI. But before we get too deep into that, would you step back in time and tell us? Who's Daniel, where do you come from? And what is it that's brought you to this point to be CTO applying AI in such a cool way? Daniel Yep, so I actually studied economics and finance in school and came across an online class by Andrew Yang on Coursera. And at that point, I just absolutely fell in love with machine learning and artificial intelligence. And I was like, wow, this is absolutely what I'm wanting. Yeah, with my life. So, you know, started studying a lot. Got a job eventually at IBM Watson, and worked at a small company doing what type classification, then I was doing some consulting on the side, where I actually got connected with iosshare, Nike, the CEO of foods, but at the time, it was a lunchbox. And they were developing a consumer facing app that, you know, they were trying to pair people with recipes. And you could set up a diet profile for yourself, and instantly order things online through instacart, based on recipes that you find. And I initially got engaged with them, building a wine pairing recommendation application, where, given a certain recipe will automatically recommend a wine pairing that would go well, really well I Grant ...need that certain kind of food, you're like, Hey, this is the right, right, Daniel ...we're gonna wanna medium red wine with that right or a very sweet dessert wine. Grant Until it this where lunchbox started, they were focusing on solving that problem. Daniel They were focused on solving the one stop shop for keeping all of your recipes together, ordering food very easily. And then also being able to manage your diets, and allergens, and just make making sure all of that was really seamless. And they also had a great mission of trying to mitigate food waste, so that they could recommend given all of the stuff that you have in your fridge that would normally sit there and forget about they could recommend a recipe and for you to make of the things that you've already selected. And so Grant all right, very good. All right. So so then you bumped into them, and you started to work with them. Tell us a little bit about the transition over to food space. How did the vision change? Daniel Yeah, it was actually pretty serendipitous, and rather abrupt. So back in 2019, io was a part of grocery shop, which is a big conference in the CPG space and food industry. And he's trying to pitch this idea of lunchbox to brands and retailers to get them to sign up for it. And they all have basically kept telling them the same thing of like, hey, it's a great idea. It's super interesting. I would love to but what you're asking for with all of these like dietary profiles, and The information necessary to build these types of recommendation algorithms. It's we just don't have it, we don't have ingredients and digitized nutrition labels. And, you know, we have the very minimum. So given that that information is like, Okay, well, we've got to take a step back. So he calls me up. And he says, you know, hey, Daniel, would it be possible given a bunch of computer or a bunch of e commerce images, to extract the product information from there and actually read it from those images. And I had done a little bit of stuff with computer vision by that point, using, like pre trained, convolutional neural net models on image net, and then using transfer learning to identify key regions. And so I stopped and thought about it. And I was like, yeah, you know, I think the problem is tractable enough. And the technology's in such place, now that we can absolutely solve this problem. And so yeah, two years later, we now have a model that can classify things that matter of seconds. And we're gonna extract that product information and seconds with 99.7% accuracy 99.7. So if I bring I can assume to you, and you can see the label on it, you can figure out what this is, you can identify it. Exactly. So we'll extract things like brand name, product, name, net weight, the ingredients, the nutrition label, any certifications, such as whether or not it's recycled, kosher, non GMO, vegan, all of that awesome stuff, including marketing claims, like low sodium or, you know, contains less sugar, those those types of things, well, pull out all of the relevant information from the product label. And we'll read it in the same way that a person would read it. A lot of other products that do something similar or are entirely based on the universal Product Code code, the UPC barcode on the back, where they're basically just looking things up from a database, a database might have inaccurate information, it might be out of date, so might have been accurate at one point, it might have been transmis, transcribe with whoever transcribed it in the first place, we're gonna read that label and not image, the same way that a human would label it so that it's, we're going to the ground truth. Grant So PC based, you're actually extracting the actual text, you're figuring out what this is, and then the semantics of it. What does that mean? Oh, it means this ingredient, this so much in the, you know, in terms of the amount of the ingredient, and so forth. Daniel Exactly. And then we will also derive new information from that information that we've extracted, such as whether or not it's going to be had certain allergens. If it contains peanuts, we're going to let you know if it has a peanut allergy. We're also going to determine whether or not it conforms to different diets. So I'm a vegetarian. And I'm constantly reading labels for obscure things like whether or not my cheese contains rennet in it, which is a animal derived enzyme. So we will read all of that for you, and then derive whether or not it's going to correspond with with your diet. Grant So can you talk about some of the use cases around this? So are you targeting b2b scenarios? Are you doing b2c? Is that something that I as an end consumer comes in interacts with it, let's say through through my cell phone? or How are you? How are people going to consume this this cool platform? Daniel Yeah, absolutely. So right now, we are primarily focused on optimizing the e commerce experience. So if you're on Walmart, or Albertsons or target, and you are using your favorite grocery delivery app, or you're going in to do pickup, all of that purchasing decisions are happening upfront on the e commerce website. And at the very least, we want to make sure that that information is present and accurate so that you can make the decisions yourself whether or not at the very least, you can see that ingredients label and search to see if that rennet in gradient is there, or if you're trying to, you know bulk up make sure that it has enough protein or has low sugar, low fat, whatever your dietary needs are. We want to make sure that information is there. But we really want to enable a more optimized ecommerce experiences where you know in your little left side of the toolbar, you can select vegetarian or pescatarian or low sodium diet or a South Beach diet, or I'm allergic to shellfish, and automatically only be shown products that correspond to your dietary needs. So we really think that optimizing that e commerce experience and the search is where we can have the largest impact right away. Grant So So some of the health profile of the person intersects with this, is it coming off? Like, I don't know, like, like the fitness app? Or is it coming off of other sort of apps? And then are capturing that health information? How do you integrate with that? Daniel Yeah, absolutely. So right now, we are basically providing the data to the retailer so that they can make those optimizations. But certainly being able to integrate with, you know, My Fitness Pal, or Weight Watchers would help optimize these experiences. And we are in discussions with those types of companies as well to improve their databases. So that you aren't, you don't have to manually type in all of that information on your fitness app, you can basically just look it up in the database, and it's accurate and recent. One problem that we've seen is that 30% or so of data is of grocery products are updated every year. So anyone I think use one of these apps has the experience of typing in their information, finding out finding the correct product, but it's a little bit outdated, the calories are a little off the nutrient profiles a little bit off, we're gonna make sure that it's updated. And in the right place. Grant That's interesting. So you talked about accuracy, the model accuracy for AI? And I think you should say 97%. Right. 99.7. Daniel Yeah, we are absolutely religious about that is, wow, you know, that is the problem that we're trying to solve. Right now, if you look up any product, on, say, a large, very large e commerce website, like walmart.com, there is a somewhere between 40 and 70% chance that there is at least one mistake on that website, regarding just the ingredients and nutrition information. So if you're trying to base you know, your health profile on that, it's it's an inaccurate, so we are just absolutely religious about getting every single piece of information. Correct, at least as so far as it corresponds to the product images. Grant So is this is this just for humans? Or is this also food for animals and pets? And how does this work? Daniel Yep, so we've definitely just, we started with humans, we are expanding to pet food and being able to build attributes around that two things like wet versus dry pet food, whether it's for a large size dog, or a small size dog. And all of those attributes we're hoping will also assist in that product search and discoverability so that you're not being shown a dog food, that's, you know, too too big for your small small dogs. Right. Grant Right. Right. Okay. All right, that makes sense. And then in terms of what we're talking about, who it's relevant to terms, your current market, so it's for humans, obviously, animals in the future. But as we think about the humans, this English base, is it other languages, Spanish or Mandarin or others? Where are you in terms of multilingual? Daniel Yep. So, you know, food is, I think, sacred to everyone everywhere. And as we move from this, in store grocery experience, where you're, you have the product in front of you, you can pick it up, and you can read the label to an e commerce experience, where somebody might just be dropping that off to your doorstep, and you don't see the product until it's there. We really think it's important that we have as larger reach as possible. So we definitely are working on expanding our algorithms to apply to different regulatory regulatory environments. You know, Europe has, I think, 12 allergens, whereas the united states currently has nine, and they just added sesame, to their allergens. They also have different nutrition labels and different information that they require to be on those. And then in addition to that, the different languages that are actually present there, and all of that obviously presents different technological issues, custom models for each of those markets, but really what we've spent a lot of time Building and working on is creating models that can quickly adapt to these new domains and building a really robust training pipeline. So that basically all we have to do is collect more data, instill a little bit of domain expertise, where we have to learn a little bit about that new market or that language. But after that, we can adapt our models very quickly to that new. Grant You know, I just have to ask, given that I love the AI piece of this, as well as just the benefit that you're bringing to human family. I mean, that's, that's huge. When I think about the AI portion of this, I think, how, how was building that model? I mean, how you have a lot of cans in your food storage now. I mean, how much? How many boxes of Cheerios did you buy? I mean, that's amazing. How did you get through all that? That's just that, right? There is a big challenge, right? To get through enough instances? Daniel Yeah, um, I Oh, and Dan, my business partners, they spent a lot of time getting kicked out of grocery stores, because they kept picking out prod products and taking pictures with their phones. And so they were kicked out of a few grocery stores, I think they learned to, you know, explain what, what they were doing their first after a little bit, but certainly a lot of time, taking pictures of your entire pantry. Going around the grocery store, just pick it up as many random things as possible. That's creative. Grant Yeah, that's, that's really great. If you have any particular challenges in terms of the kinds of food and other words, some things don't have labels, right. So certainly asparagus typically right or decent, things like that. So how do you deal with that? Daniel Yeah, absolutely. So currently, we only support branded foods. So it does need to have that product label. But it's interesting that you should mention certain types of foods, we were doing a analysis an audit of our accuracy. And we were noticing that a certain product category, yogurt, in particular, was creating a lot of issues for us and was very low accuracy. And it turned out that the curvature of the yogurt container, and then the fact that it kind of tapers down, creating a lot of issues for OCR model, where the text is kind of getting bunched up at the edges of that, you know, yogurt container. So we actually had to like build a specific model just to handle those types of containers. So certainly, you know, a lot of our time and effort has been focused on the corner cases in those weird scenarios where that are particularly difficult. The like, very simple run of the mill cereal box, where it's a nice rectangular box and the nutrition labels very prominent. And it's a very usual format that's easier to solve that most of our time has been focused on these weird one offs, like these tobert, tapered yogurt containers. Grant So so let me think about because I love the, again, this problem that you're solving and how it benefits people and their dietary needs. When I think about how people can consume this, what's the way that they will be able to interact with this standard? And what's the state of what space is doing today? Is it? Is it out there ready to be used? Or Where are you guys? Daniel Yeah, we're currently working with brands to get their data to the retailers and some retailers are a little bit further along than others and optimizing the, you know, experience for you where you can set up those dietary profiles for yourself and only be shown the products that correspond to your values, or do you only want organic food or you have a gluten intolerance, only being charged on those foods that correspond with those values or dietary needs to just getting the product information out there to the retailers in the first place. We're also working with some initial engagements with smart appliance manufacturers, things like smart fridges and smart micro microwaves, where you can simply scan the product, either using the barcode or just the front of the product and instantly have your oven or your microwave set the time timer or the temperature for you to cook that product for you. Additionally, being able to do things like recipe planning based on the products that you have in your fridge, being able to order products from I'm a retailer directly using the feature on your fridge that is based on your dietary profiles and just you never needed to get on your computer. And you could just order, you know, your gluten free pizza directly from your smart fridge that is linked to a product database with information that we're providing, we really think that more and more people are going more and more of our purchasing Our food is going to happen in this virtual digitized space, whether that's through your computer, your smart fridge, and the more that information is available, the more that we can build a more customized experience, and really make shopping easier as well, so that you aren't ever being shown products that don't correspond to your dietary dietary needs or your values. You know, even being able to set timers and things for microwave, it might sound trivial, but it really should make the entire cooking, cooking experience that easier for you. Grant You know, I certainly could benefit from walking up to the fridge and say, what are the possibilities of what I can create from what's in there, my wife will do that she's got that AI model already in her head, but I don't have that model, same set of food and go, there's nothing in there. And then she can craft you know, miracles out of it. Daniel So yeah, I'm the exact same way. And, you know, you could you can set user profiles for everyone in your family and say, Hey, you know, I'm a pescetarian. And my daughter's gluten intolerant and my son really only it's organic food, and being able to mix and match all of those constraints, we can figure out what recipe and you know, what to eat for dinner, right? Grant And so it sounds like, like, like, we've done that, that South Beach diet multiple times. Sounds like you know, you can literally walk up to your, to your fridge at some point and say, Hey, what is it that I can make that is in compliance with the South Beach diet? Daniel Exactly. And then things like, you know, macros counting, like calorie counting, and counting how much protein that you're consuming, would be a lot easier using if all of this information is digitized, and you're interacting with it in a smart fridge type environment where it can track what you're picking up and making. So I think entering information into one of those calorie counting apps is often a pain and I think, a limitation for a lot of people. So anything that can mitigate some of that barrier to getting healthier and keeping track of what we're putting in our bodies, to me is very much welcome. Grant So we've talked about the art of the possibilities around this right? What is it that this can bring the people that dramatically influences and impacts their health? What do you see in terms of the downsides? What hurdles or challenges? What could get in the way of either people adopting this or getting value from it? What what concerns or challenges do you see there? Daniel Yeah, so some of the things that we've seen in the industry about the difficulty to use this type of data is, every retailer kind of has a different format for how they ask for data. Some retailers want the units and the nutrition and the value to be separate. So if you have seven grams for protein, sometimes they want us separate key for seven and a separate one for brands. They might call things different. Some people might think call things, UPC, other ones call it barcode. Other ones call it product ID. So that's some of the work in transit translating the data mapping or the data model to each of those retailers can be a major bottleneck for a brand say wants to get their data to Walmart to Albertsons to target. And they basically had to look at these like massive Excel spreadsheets, but like 70 columns or 150 columns, and manually copy that data over and it's a huge pain. And that that is one of the major reasons why only the largest of brands have the resources to get their data digitized in the first place. So what we do is, you know, we're going to first extract that information for you automatically from your images. You don't have to hire a team of people to do that extraction in the first place, where we've also built these mappings for the top 10 retailers where we can automatically syndicate and get the data in the format that they want to see. Whether that's directly through an API, and just automatically updating your information through an API, fortunately, some of the grocery industry isn't quite as forward thinking. So a lot of updates are just made through Excel spreadsheets. But we'll create that Excel spreadsheet for you. So that it's basically just a matter of sending that over an email. And I think that should mitigate a vast majority of the bottlenecks currently faced in the industry. Because some of the, I could just imagine being a brand manager and be like, Alright, well, here's my data mapping. But then there's these close lists for Walmart, where, you know, I'm supposed to put in a certain beef cut type for this product. And doing that, for every single one of my 150 500 products, that is going to be a huge ass. Grant Yeah, it has said that. It's one of the things that drew me to this. And when you and I were first talking about this recently, which was, I feel like the work that you're doing is not only scales to the larger brands, but also it's pulling out all this information that makes it available, even the small to medium business space as well. And so feels very scalable, therefore approachable to benefit a lot of people, lots of different scenarios. Daniel Yeah, absolutely. And we try to make things as easy as possible to get integrated with our system. So, you know, our simplest use case, if you already have data and a list of URLs for your product, you're going to send us over a CSV with your URL links and the product IDs associated with those. And we'll download those images for you and process them through the system. And now you can download it and whatever data format you want, you know, CSV or JSON, or an Excel or in target specific taxonomy format, or Walmart's or Albertsons. Or you can upload it through a, you know, drag and drop upload portal where you can just drop, drag a folder of your product images into that upload portal, interact with an API, or even give us access to your put them up on an FTP server and point us to it and we will download the images there. So it's really trying to make things as simple as possible. So that whatever your tech stack is, and whatever the size of your organization is, we can help you get up and running as quickly as possible. Grant Lots of integration strategies for if that's powerful. That's awesome. Alright, so let me ask you, if the for the people that are listening to this, where are you going to direct them to what's what's, where are you going to invite and where do they go find out more about this? Daniel Yep, so a FoodSpaceTech.com is the place to find all of the information. Grant Okay, FoodSpaceTech.com; Awesome. That's great. Daniel Okay, we actually just released a brand new website. So it looks great. And you can look at it now. Grant It looks awesome. I've asked you a ton of questions. What questions Haven't I asked you? What would you like to share that I haven't prompted you? Daniel Yeah. So I think that can be skepticism and the world of AI. And, you know, whether or not we can do what we say that we can do. And we are, again, just absolutely religious about product accuracy. And I think it's good for anyone who knows a lot about AI to know that AI can only take you so far and the machine learning is only going to get you so far. So we've spent a very large amount of our time building a very sophisticated human in the loop process, were really trying to figure out where the ML system is doing well and can be trusted, versus when a human needs to come in and take the reins and make a more educated more critical thinking decision about things with things like building known rules between the nutrition label. So calories is a very direct calculation from total carbohydrates and protein and total fat. So we can basically just cut check to see if that calculations done well. We can cross check our nutrition information against our ingredients where we've actually built models where we can predict certain nutrition elements based on the ingredients. You know, we know that a cookie were the first ingredient might be butter or sugar is going to have more fat content than something where the first ingredient is carrots. So if anything falls outside of those ranges, we can alert it and say, Hey, something's gone off the rails here, we should make sure if human takes a look at it. For certain container types, we know we are struggle a little bit more things like that yogurt container. So instead of relying on the ML models that work most of the time, but not all the time, we can just flag that certain product type for review by a human just to get another check on it. But we really think that the just to solve a problem, at least in the near term, using AI involves humans in that in the loop and being able to really distinguish that the easy cases, the happy path that I like to call from, hey, we've seen a new domain, you know, maybe it's a it, both English and Spanish is written on the back. So our models are getting a little bit confused. Let's flag that for review. Grant Yep. Yeah, I really appreciate the qualification around AI. I tend to prefer to think of it as augmented intelligence than artificial intelligence, I feel Yeah, I feel like that's the state of where it really is. There's so many things out there, like, Oh, you know, ai robots and Terminator that give a real misperception. But, but today, this stuff around deep fake, right, is really starting to become, you know, a bit of a challenge, right, in terms of creating even less trust around this. So it's a real misuse, if you will, of that. So in this particular case, this is obviously real, honorable use of AI itself. But the whole if we can keep people's perceptions to this is to augment your thinking process, right? Your cognitive behavior. So even though it's coming to you and saying, This is what you could or should eat, or this is what makes sense, you know, from a nutritional value, you still own the responsibility yourself, right to end up saying, Yeah, this is something I'm gonna do, I'm not passing that off, you know, to the AI model and say, do all the thinking for me, right? Daniel Oh, absolutely. And I could not agree more, you know, we are just providing the information to you. But it still requires that critical thinking and decision about your own values and your own goals to make the final decision about what you're going to put into your body. Right. We're just trying to make that easier. Make that whole decision process simpler. Yeah. Powerful. Grant They're very cool. Okay. All right. Any last comments, before we wrap up here, Daniel? No, it was a great to be here at Brampton. Thank you very much for having me. Yeah. Thanks for taking the time and for sharing this cool platform that you've put together everyone, go take a look at food space tech.com. Thank you for joining and until next time, go get some nutrition. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your FREE eBook visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

In this episode, I have a guest who discusses nutritional AI that you can eat. Grant Everybody, this is Grant Larsen. Welcome to another episode of ClickAI radio. Wow. Today I have in the house with me. Mr. Daniel DeMillard, he is the CTO of FoodSpace, and I am just honored for the opportunity to meet him and to get to hear his story and what he and his organization has been doing with AI. Alright, let's jump into this. Okay, so, Daniel, first of all, welcome. Daniel Thanks for having me, Grant. Great to be here. Grant It is, it is really great to have you here and to have another another patriots in AI, right things that you guys are doing, as I got to know you. And before we started this recording, I was fascinated with the kind of work that you guys are doing and where you focus your use and application of AI. But before we get too deep into that, would you step back in time and tell us? Who's Daniel, where do you come from? And what is it that's brought you to this point to be CTO applying AI in such a cool way? Daniel Yep, so I actually studied economics and finance in school and came across an online class by Andrew Yang on Coursera. And at that point, I just absolutely fell in love with machine learning and artificial intelligence. And I was like, wow, this is absolutely what I'm wanting. Yeah, with my life. So, you know, started studying a lot. Got a job eventually at IBM Watson, and worked at a small company doing what type classification, then I was doing some consulting on the side, where I actually got connected with iosshare, Nike, the CEO of foods, but at the time, it was a lunchbox. And they were developing a consumer facing app that, you know, they were trying to pair people with recipes. And you could set up a diet profile for yourself, and instantly order things online through instacart, based on recipes that you find. And I initially got engaged with them, building a wine pairing recommendation application, where, given a certain recipe will automatically recommend a wine pairing that would go well, really well I Grant ...need that certain kind of food, you're like, Hey, this is the right, right, Daniel ...we're gonna wanna medium red wine with that right or a very sweet dessert wine. Grant Until it this where lunchbox started, they were focusing on solving that problem. Daniel They were focused on solving the one stop shop for keeping all of your recipes together, ordering food very easily. And then also being able to manage your diets, and allergens, and just make making sure all of that was really seamless. And they also had a great mission of trying to mitigate food waste, so that they could recommend given all of the stuff that you have in your fridge that would normally sit there and forget about they could recommend a recipe and for you to make of the things that you've already selected. And so Grant all right, very good. All right. So so then you bumped into them, and you started to work with them. Tell us a little bit about the transition over to food space. How did the vision change? Daniel Yeah, it was actually pretty serendipitous, and rather abrupt. So back in 2019, io was a part of grocery shop, which is a big conference in the CPG space and food industry. And he's trying to pitch this idea of lunchbox to brands and retailers to get them to sign up for it. And they all have basically kept telling them the same thing of like, hey, it's a great idea. It's super interesting. I would love to but what you're asking for with all of these like dietary profiles, and The information necessary to build these types of recommendation algorithms. It's we just don't have it, we don't have ingredients and digitized nutrition labels. And, you know, we have the very minimum. So given that that information is like, Okay, well, we've got to take a step back. So he calls me up. And he says, you know, hey, Daniel, would it be possible given a bunch of computer or a bunch of e commerce images, to extract the product information from there and actually read it from those images. And I had done a little bit of stuff with computer vision by that point, using, like pre trained, convolutional neural net models on image net, and then using transfer learning to identify key regions. And so I stopped and thought about it. And I was like, yeah, you know, I think the problem is tractable enough. And the technology's in such place, now that we can absolutely solve this problem. And so yeah, two years later, we now have a model that can classify things that matter of seconds. And we're gonna extract that product information and seconds with 99.7% accuracy 99.7. So if I bring I can assume to you, and you can see the label on it, you can figure out what this is, you can identify it. Exactly. So we'll extract things like brand name, product, name, net weight, the ingredients, the nutrition label, any certifications, such as whether or not it's recycled, kosher, non GMO, vegan, all of that awesome stuff, including marketing claims, like low sodium or, you know, contains less sugar, those those types of things, well, pull out all of the relevant information from the product label. And we'll read it in the same way that a person would read it. A lot of other products that do something similar or are entirely based on the universal Product Code code, the UPC barcode on the back, where they're basically just looking things up from a database, a database might have inaccurate information, it might be out of date, so might have been accurate at one point, it might have been transmis, transcribe with whoever transcribed it in the first place, we're gonna read that label and not image, the same way that a human would label it so that it's, we're going to the ground truth. Grant So PC based, you're actually extracting the actual text, you're figuring out what this is, and then the semantics of it. What does that mean? Oh, it means this ingredient, this so much in the, you know, in terms of the amount of the ingredient, and so forth. Daniel Exactly. And then we will also derive new information from that information that we've extracted, such as whether or not it's going to be had certain allergens. If it contains peanuts, we're going to let you know if it has a peanut allergy. We're also going to determine whether or not it conforms to different diets. So I'm a vegetarian. And I'm constantly reading labels for obscure things like whether or not my cheese contains rennet in it, which is a animal derived enzyme. So we will read all of that for you, and then derive whether or not it's going to correspond with with your diet. Grant So can you talk about some of the use cases around this? So are you targeting b2b scenarios? Are you doing b2c? Is that something that I as an end consumer comes in interacts with it, let's say through through my cell phone? or How are you? How are people going to consume this this cool platform? Daniel Yeah, absolutely. So right now, we are primarily focused on optimizing the e commerce experience. So if you're on Walmart, or Albertsons or target, and you are using your favorite grocery delivery app, or you're going in to do pickup, all of that purchasing decisions are happening upfront on the e commerce website. And at the very least, we want to make sure that that information is present and accurate so that you can make the decisions yourself whether or not at the very least, you can see that ingredients label and search to see if that rennet in gradient is there, or if you're trying to, you know bulk up make sure that it has enough protein or has low sugar, low fat, whatever your dietary needs are. We want to make sure that information is there. But we really want to enable a more optimized ecommerce experiences where you know in your little left side of the toolbar, you can select vegetarian or pescatarian or low sodium diet or a South Beach diet, or I'm allergic to shellfish, and automatically only be shown products that correspond to your dietary needs. So we really think that optimizing that e commerce experience and the search is where we can have the largest impact right away. Grant So So some of the health profile of the person intersects with this, is it coming off? Like, I don't know, like, like the fitness app? Or is it coming off of other sort of apps? And then are capturing that health information? How do you integrate with that? Daniel Yeah, absolutely. So right now, we are basically providing the data to the retailer so that they can make those optimizations. But certainly being able to integrate with, you know, My Fitness Pal, or Weight Watchers would help optimize these experiences. And we are in discussions with those types of companies as well to improve their databases. So that you aren't, you don't have to manually type in all of that information on your fitness app, you can basically just look it up in the database, and it's accurate and recent. One problem that we've seen is that 30% or so of data is of grocery products are updated every year. So anyone I think use one of these apps has the experience of typing in their information, finding out finding the correct product, but it's a little bit outdated, the calories are a little off the nutrient profiles a little bit off, we're gonna make sure that it's updated. And in the right place. Grant That's interesting. So you talked about accuracy, the model accuracy for AI? And I think you should say 97%. Right. 99.7. Daniel Yeah, we are absolutely religious about that is, wow, you know, that is the problem that we're trying to solve. Right now, if you look up any product, on, say, a large, very large e commerce website, like walmart.com, there is a somewhere between 40 and 70% chance that there is at least one mistake on that website, regarding just the ingredients and nutrition information. So if you're trying to base you know, your health profile on that, it's it's an inaccurate, so we are just absolutely religious about getting every single piece of information. Correct, at least as so far as it corresponds to the product images. Grant So is this is this just for humans? Or is this also food for animals and pets? And how does this work? Daniel Yep, so we've definitely just, we started with humans, we are expanding to pet food and being able to build attributes around that two things like wet versus dry pet food, whether it's for a large size dog, or a small size dog. And all of those attributes we're hoping will also assist in that product search and discoverability so that you're not being shown a dog food, that's, you know, too too big for your small small dogs. Right. Grant Right. Right. Okay. All right, that makes sense. And then in terms of what we're talking about, who it's relevant to terms, your current market, so it's for humans, obviously, animals in the future. But as we think about the humans, this English base, is it other languages, Spanish or Mandarin or others? Where are you in terms of multilingual? Daniel Yep. So, you know, food is, I think, sacred to everyone everywhere. And as we move from this, in store grocery experience, where you're, you have the product in front of you, you can pick it up, and you can read the label to an e commerce experience, where somebody might just be dropping that off to your doorstep, and you don't see the product until it's there. We really think it's important that we have as larger reach as possible. So we definitely are working on expanding our algorithms to apply to different regulatory regulatory environments. You know, Europe has, I think, 12 allergens, whereas the united states currently has nine, and they just added sesame, to their allergens. They also have different nutrition labels and different information that they require to be on those. And then in addition to that, the different languages that are actually present there, and all of that obviously presents different technological issues, custom models for each of those markets, but really what we've spent a lot of time Building and working on is creating models that can quickly adapt to these new domains and building a really robust training pipeline. So that basically all we have to do is collect more data, instill a little bit of domain expertise, where we have to learn a little bit about that new market or that language. But after that, we can adapt our models very quickly to that new. Grant You know, I just have to ask, given that I love the AI piece of this, as well as just the benefit that you're bringing to human family. I mean, that's, that's huge. When I think about the AI portion of this, I think, how, how was building that model? I mean, how you have a lot of cans in your food storage now. I mean, how much? How many boxes of Cheerios did you buy? I mean, that's amazing. How did you get through all that? That's just that, right? There is a big challenge, right? To get through enough instances? Daniel Yeah, um, I Oh, and Dan, my business partners, they spent a lot of time getting kicked out of grocery stores, because they kept picking out prod products and taking pictures with their phones. And so they were kicked out of a few grocery stores, I think they learned to, you know, explain what, what they were doing their first after a little bit, but certainly a lot of time, taking pictures of your entire pantry. Going around the grocery store, just pick it up as many random things as possible. That's creative. Grant Yeah, that's, that's really great. If you have any particular challenges in terms of the kinds of food and other words, some things don't have labels, right. So certainly asparagus typically right or decent, things like that. So how do you deal with that? Daniel Yeah, absolutely. So currently, we only support branded foods. So it does need to have that product label. But it's interesting that you should mention certain types of foods, we were doing a analysis an audit of our accuracy. And we were noticing that a certain product category, yogurt, in particular, was creating a lot of issues for us and was very low accuracy. And it turned out that the curvature of the yogurt container, and then the fact that it kind of tapers down, creating a lot of issues for OCR model, where the text is kind of getting bunched up at the edges of that, you know, yogurt container. So we actually had to like build a specific model just to handle those types of containers. So certainly, you know, a lot of our time and effort has been focused on the corner cases in those weird scenarios where that are particularly difficult. The like, very simple run of the mill cereal box, where it's a nice rectangular box and the nutrition labels very prominent. And it's a very usual format that's easier to solve that most of our time has been focused on these weird one offs, like these tobert, tapered yogurt containers. Grant So so let me think about because I love the, again, this problem that you're solving and how it benefits people and their dietary needs. When I think about how people can consume this, what's the way that they will be able to interact with this standard? And what's the state of what space is doing today? Is it? Is it out there ready to be used? Or Where are you guys? Daniel Yeah, we're currently working with brands to get their data to the retailers and some retailers are a little bit further along than others and optimizing the, you know, experience for you where you can set up those dietary profiles for yourself and only be shown the products that correspond to your values, or do you only want organic food or you have a gluten intolerance, only being charged on those foods that correspond with those values or dietary needs to just getting the product information out there to the retailers in the first place. We're also working with some initial engagements with smart appliance manufacturers, things like smart fridges and smart micro microwaves, where you can simply scan the product, either using the barcode or just the front of the product and instantly have your oven or your microwave set the time timer or the temperature for you to cook that product for you. Additionally, being able to do things like recipe planning based on the products that you have in your fridge, being able to order products from I'm a retailer directly using the feature on your fridge that is based on your dietary profiles and just you never needed to get on your computer. And you could just order, you know, your gluten free pizza directly from your smart fridge that is linked to a product database with information that we're providing, we really think that more and more people are going more and more of our purchasing Our food is going to happen in this virtual digitized space, whether that's through your computer, your smart fridge, and the more that information is available, the more that we can build a more customized experience, and really make shopping easier as well, so that you aren't ever being shown products that don't correspond to your dietary dietary needs or your values. You know, even being able to set timers and things for microwave, it might sound trivial, but it really should make the entire cooking, cooking experience that easier for you. Grant You know, I certainly could benefit from walking up to the fridge and say, what are the possibilities of what I can create from what's in there, my wife will do that she's got that AI model already in her head, but I don't have that model, same set of food and go, there's nothing in there. And then she can craft you know, miracles out of it. Daniel So yeah, I'm the exact same way. And, you know, you could you can set user profiles for everyone in your family and say, Hey, you know, I'm a pescetarian. And my daughter's gluten intolerant and my son really only it's organic food, and being able to mix and match all of those constraints, we can figure out what recipe and you know, what to eat for dinner, right? Grant And so it sounds like, like, like, we've done that, that South Beach diet multiple times. Sounds like you know, you can literally walk up to your, to your fridge at some point and say, Hey, what is it that I can make that is in compliance with the South Beach diet? Daniel Exactly. And then things like, you know, macros counting, like calorie counting, and counting how much protein that you're consuming, would be a lot easier using if all of this information is digitized, and you're interacting with it in a smart fridge type environment where it can track what you're picking up and making. So I think entering information into one of those calorie counting apps is often a pain and I think, a limitation for a lot of people. So anything that can mitigate some of that barrier to getting healthier and keeping track of what we're putting in our bodies, to me is very much welcome. Grant So we've talked about the art of the possibilities around this right? What is it that this can bring the people that dramatically influences and impacts their health? What do you see in terms of the downsides? What hurdles or challenges? What could get in the way of either people adopting this or getting value from it? What what concerns or challenges do you see there? Daniel Yeah, so some of the things that we've seen in the industry about the difficulty to use this type of data is, every retailer kind of has a different format for how they ask for data. Some retailers want the units and the nutrition and the value to be separate. So if you have seven grams for protein, sometimes they want us separate key for seven and a separate one for brands. They might call things different. Some people might think call things, UPC, other ones call it barcode. Other ones call it product ID. So that's some of the work in transit translating the data mapping or the data model to each of those retailers can be a major bottleneck for a brand say wants to get their data to Walmart to Albertsons to target. And they basically had to look at these like massive Excel spreadsheets, but like 70 columns or 150 columns, and manually copy that data over and it's a huge pain. And that that is one of the major reasons why only the largest of brands have the resources to get their data digitized in the first place. So what we do is, you know, we're going to first extract that information for you automatically from your images. You don't have to hire a team of people to do that extraction in the first place, where we've also built these mappings for the top 10 retailers where we can automatically syndicate and get the data in the format that they want to see. Whether that's directly through an API, and just automatically updating your information through an API, fortunately, some of the grocery industry isn't quite as forward thinking. So a lot of updates are just made through Excel spreadsheets. But we'll create that Excel spreadsheet for you. So that it's basically just a matter of sending that over an email. And I think that should mitigate a vast majority of the bottlenecks currently faced in the industry. Because some of the, I could just imagine being a brand manager and be like, Alright, well, here's my data mapping. But then there's these close lists for Walmart, where, you know, I'm supposed to put in a certain beef cut type for this product. And doing that, for every single one of my 150 500 products, that is going to be a huge ass. Grant Yeah, it has said that. It's one of the things that drew me to this. And when you and I were first talking about this recently, which was, I feel like the work that you're doing is not only scales to the larger brands, but also it's pulling out all this information that makes it available, even the small to medium business space as well. And so feels very scalable, therefore approachable to benefit a lot of people, lots of different scenarios. Daniel Yeah, absolutely. And we try to make things as easy as possible to get integrated with our system. So, you know, our simplest use case, if you already have data and a list of URLs for your product, you're going to send us over a CSV with your URL links and the product IDs associated with those. And we'll download those images for you and process them through the system. And now you can download it and whatever data format you want, you know, CSV or JSON, or an Excel or in target specific taxonomy format, or Walmart's or Albertsons. Or you can upload it through a, you know, drag and drop upload portal where you can just drop, drag a folder of your product images into that upload portal, interact with an API, or even give us access to your put them up on an FTP server and point us to it and we will download the images there. So it's really trying to make things as simple as possible. So that whatever your tech stack is, and whatever the size of your organization is, we can help you get up and running as quickly as possible. Grant Lots of integration strategies for if that's powerful. That's awesome. Alright, so let me ask you, if the for the people that are listening to this, where are you going to direct them to what's what's, where are you going to invite and where do they go find out more about this? Daniel Yep, so a FoodSpaceTech.com is the place to find all of the information. Grant Okay, FoodSpaceTech.com; Awesome. That's great. Daniel Okay, we actually just released a brand new website. So it looks great. And you can look at it now. Grant It looks awesome. I've asked you a ton of questions. What questions Haven't I asked you? What would you like to share that I haven't prompted you? Daniel Yeah. So I think that can be skepticism and the world of AI. And, you know, whether or not we can do what we say that we can do. And we are, again, just absolutely religious about product accuracy. And I think it's good for anyone who knows a lot about AI to know that AI can only take you so far and the machine learning is only going to get you so far. So we've spent a very large amount of our time building a very sophisticated human in the loop process, were really trying to figure out where the ML system is doing well and can be trusted, versus when a human needs to come in and take the reins and make a more educated more critical thinking decision about things with things like building known rules between the nutrition label. So calories is a very direct calculation from total carbohydrates and protein and total fat. So we can basically just cut check to see if that calculations done well. We can cross check our nutrition information against our ingredients where we've actually built models where we can predict certain nutrition elements based on the ingredients. You know, we know that a cookie were the first ingredient might be butter or sugar is going to have more fat content than something where the first ingredient is carrots. So if anything falls outside of those ranges, we can alert it and say, Hey, something's gone off the rails here, we should make sure if human takes a look at it. For certain container types, we know we are struggle a little bit more things like that yogurt container. So instead of relying on the ML models that work most of the time, but not all the time, we can just flag that certain product type for review by a human just to get another check on it. But we really think that the just to solve a problem, at least in the near term, using AI involves humans in that in the loop and being able to really distinguish that the easy cases, the happy path that I like to call from, hey, we've seen a new domain, you know, maybe it's a it, both English and Spanish is written on the back. So our models are getting a little bit confused. Let's flag that for review. Grant Yep. Yeah, I really appreciate the qualification around AI. I tend to prefer to think of it as augmented intelligence than artificial intelligence, I feel Yeah, I feel like that's the state of where it really is. There's so many things out there, like, Oh, you know, ai robots and Terminator that give a real misperception. But, but today, this stuff around deep fake, right, is really starting to become, you know, a bit of a challenge, right, in terms of creating even less trust around this. So it's a real misuse, if you will, of that. So in this particular case, this is obviously real, honorable use of AI itself. But the whole if we can keep people's perceptions to this is to augment your thinking process, right? Your cognitive behavior. So even though it's coming to you and saying, This is what you could or should eat, or this is what makes sense, you know, from a nutritional value, you still own the responsibility yourself, right to end up saying, Yeah, this is something I'm gonna do, I'm not passing that off, you know, to the AI model and say, do all the thinking for me, right? Daniel Oh, absolutely. And I could not agree more, you know, we are just providing the information to you. But it still requires that critical thinking and decision about your own values and your own goals to make the final decision about what you're going to put into your body. Right. We're just trying to make that easier. Make that whole decision process simpler. Yeah. Powerful. Grant They're very cool. Okay. All right. Any last comments, before we wrap up here, Daniel? No, it was a great to be here at Brampton. Thank you very much for having me. Yeah. Thanks for taking the time and for sharing this cool platform that you've put together everyone, go take a look at food space tech.com. Thank you for joining and until next time, go get some nutrition. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your FREE eBook visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

Sage's “Global distributors transform to adapt, survive and thrive” report, which captures how distributors around the world, including North America, are responding to the disruption of the COVID-19 pandemic.“Across Canada and globally, distributors have had to rapidly transform their operations to meet increased consumer demand by being innovative and agile,” said Daniel Oh, VP, Medium Segment at Sage. “Cloud technology enhanced with AI capabilities and data analytics will be critical for future-proofing supply chain operations. Organizations will need to adapt and scale at a moment's notice to meet fluctuating demands as e-commerce and next-day delivery becomes the industry standard.”We recently had the chance to chat with Daniel Oh, Vice President of Sage's Medium Business Segment. Where he oversees the sales team that supports Sage's SMB customers. In this podcast, Daniel shared the key findings from the report, and discussed to what extent do the survey's findings apply to Canada and what are some implications the survey's findings have for Canadian SMEs? 

My name is Sarah Chapman. I’ve been married for almost 20 years to my husband, Trent, together we have 5 children and live in Lehi, Utah. I am an author of two books, “MindStrength for Women” and “Underneath it all.....You’re Naked” Both of these books were written after a very hard period of time in life. One was about my physical journey to coming back to myself and the other is my sexuality journey of overcoming my judgment about sex to becoming more curious. I went about teaching women about sexual health for 2 years and mainly surrounding the female sexual response cycle. I taught women that you can’t find freedom in your understanding of your sexuality until you have overcome the deep rooted beliefs about sex. I found my own freedom from it that is why I wrote a book about it. Now my focus is on creating a community of women where we come together weekly to share the physical, mental and sexual aspects of our lives and have meaningful discussions with a workbook followed by an exercise class. Because movement creates emotion. You can find me: Instagram : @mindstrength.for.women MindStrength for Women Facebook Group Email: sarah@mindstrengthmentor.com   Full Transcript:  00:00 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married, Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy, Daniel is a Marriage and Family Therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.   [music]   00:28 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. On today’s episode we have Sarah Chapman, who is an author; and we’re excited to review her book with her today and kinda learn her journey to getting to this book. Sarah, welcome to the show.   00:44 Sarah: Thank you for having me, Daniel. I appreciate this, it’s really exciting.   00:48 Daniel: I’m very excited. As someone who’s writing a book, I also 1) kinda selfishly learn your journey, (mine’s been a very difficult one). And, so I may get a little selfish in my inquiries here--but more importantly, I’m curious to hear more about you. Who are you as a wife, as a person, as a mother? Tell us a little about yourself and what got you to this point.   01:12 Sarah: Sure, love to. So, I (we), Trent and I, my husband and I, will be going on 19 years of marriage this September. I have 5 children, I currently live in Utah. We lived in California for a time, actually, in San Diego area actually. Miss that place, for sure. But, yeah, I first basically grew up in an LDS home and I grew up in a family with 8 children, and I’m 6th of the 8. [...] In our home we didn’t talk about anything remotely close to our bodies. We were very surface type of family. We didn’t really talk about hard things. I wouldn’t say that we were an authentic family. But, at the same time, I did feel loved by my parents and I felt that they were providing me with a really great education, secularly as well as spiritually. And so, I didn’t feel like I was necessarily neglected in the way I was thinking.    02:29 Sarah: However, growing up as a teenager in the 90s, I’d run around with some friends who were sexually active and seeing the naive young teenager that I was, I kinda looked at them and viewed them as people who were naughty girls, right? And so, I remember church lessons here and there. It wasn’t very often, but I do remember those specific metaphors that were shared. I actually did get the “chewed up piece of gum” kind of analogy, which maybe a lot of your audience here might have gotten.   03:10 Daniel: Oh…(sarcastically) excellent. Yeah.   03:13 Sarah: You know? And then I also just really created a lot of...I would just look at the word sex and just immediately think that it was just this dirty thing. However, there was also this other part of me that was being told that it was this sacred thing, and you don’t talk about it, right? And so I was just kinda like this....back and forth in my head about like, “what is this?” Sure, I had boyfriends in high school and I do remember getting close a couple times where I feel like my body was in a state of arousal. Obviously I didn’t know what it was, because I didn’t know my body then. But looking back, I’m like, “Oh, that’s what that tingling sensation was when I was getting close to that boy, oh! Okay, right.”    04:06 Sarah: I can say that now, but at the time, as a teenager, I didn’t at all. And I never (like when I would shower and stuff), like I would just hurry and shower really quick and then get out. I never wanted to self-pleasure or anything, at all. I didn’t even know my body. And so, come the time of marriage, the night before I’m to be married, my mom thinks it’s a great time to talk about sex. She pulls me aside and she basically asked me, “You’re gonna have sex tomorrow night, right?” and I was like, “well, I guess…”. I mean, I kinda remember my teenage years back in high school telling me that a penis goes inside a vagina, but then I was like...I plugged my ears like “I don’t wanna hear this, I don’t wanna hear this!” I just kinda ignored what they were gonna tell me. I knew just that fact: that a penis goes into a vagina and that was it. My mom was like, “Well, here’s a book. Go ahead and read this book.” And it was the book from...is it called, Between Husband and Wife by Lamb? Dr. Lamb?   05:14 Daniel: Oh yeah, oh yeah. 05:15 Sarah: Yeah, it was that book. And I was like, “Mom, I don’t have time to read this book.” And she’s like, “Well, you’ll eventually refer back to it.” And that was it. That was my sex talk from my mom. I was just basically thrown into the fire the night of my wedding. It was very traumatic. Very long, exhausting night as any honeymooners would imagine, who had never had sex before, trying to figure things out, trying to figure out our bodies. Anyways, it was just a mess. And I called my mom the next day, just in tears, like, “I just got married and this just happened to me.” I didn’t go into detail with her because we don’t...we don’t talk about details or anything like that. But I really wanted to, like, it was like this cry for help. Like, “why didn’t you tell me these things? Why didn’t you help me to understand how my body works in this way? That it’s supposed to be designed for this?” Anyway. That’s just kinda the cycle that happened for I’d say the first 16 years of my marriage. That was the only thing we really fought about in our marriage, was sex. It wasn’t money or anything, it was always about sex.   06:42 Daniel: You mean, the issues were always about sex? 06:45 Sarah: The issues, yeah. 06:46 Daniel: Okay. 06:47 Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. The issues around sex. He would always try to approach me and help to try to fix me, right? Because of course he wanted a decent experience, too. But, at the same time, I was looking at him like, “Oh...this is all you want. You just want my body.” And that was it. I viewed myself as this tool for him.   07:09 Daniel: So let me pause you right there. What you just stated was big! It was huge. So, you viewed yourself as a tool for him to get satisfied, is that what you’re saying? 07:22 Sarah: Exactly, yeah.   07:24 Daniel: And that was because of…   07:25 Sarah: You know, because I never...I never wanted to receive that pleasure for myself. Because I once again thought it was like...I thought I was a bad girl if I did that, right? So, even when I did have an orgasm, I’d immediately feel guilty every single time afterwards because of this shame that I’d created in my head about me having pleasure. So then, I viewed him as, “oh, he’s just using my body, and sex is for him, and orgasm is something that he just needs all the time.” 08:03 Daniel: I wanna explore that a little bit, if you’re okay with it. I know you bring it up in indirect ways, in fact, in your book Underneath it All... and I apologize to the audience, I didn’t mention the name of your book, Underneath it All...You’re Naked. I love that title by the way, I think it’s excellent.   08:18 Sarah: Thank you   08:19 Daniel: And your subtitle is “shedding light on misconceptions about sex from a Christian wife to Christian women.” But what you said right there was, you couldn’t allow yourself to experience pleasure. If you’re okay with that, let’s explore that a little bit more. You’re not the first to say this on my podcast and I hear it a lot from clients. What did it mean to you to experience pleasure? You’re married now, you knew clearly beforehand that (or, atleast, your value system says that) before marriage, I’m not gonna experience this. You’re saying: you jump in the shower, you get out as fast as you can because you didn’t want to self-stimulate or do anything wrong.   08:56 Sarah: Yep   08:57 Daniel: So now you’re married. What was the barrier for you in allowing yourself to experience that joy?   09:08 Sarah: Well, I think you’re basically asking what kinda shifted that focus for me? 09:16 Daniel: Well, what continued? A lot of men will get into relationships, they know they’re not supposed to pleasure before marriage but now they’re in marriage and they’re willing to let it all go--kinda the dynamic you just explained with you and your husband.   09:28 Sarah: Yeah.   09:29 Daniel: But, what prevented you, I guess...maybe, is it a shift? I guess that’s the question I’m asking you is, is it a shift? Or, it seemed more like though, you carried this perspective: “I’m not allowed to have sexual pleasure even in marriage.” Which seems incongruent with the thoughts and beliefs you had before marriage. What was the barrier to...I mean, you saw your husband having pleasure, did that peak your interest and say, “How can I have that pleasure?” or was it this continued, “I can’t have this. It’s too shameful, it’s too hurtful.” 10:04 Sarah: No, it was definitely too hurtful to me. I would just, lay there. I always like to say I’d lay there like a dead fish, maybe you’ve heard that term before. I would just allow him to just do whatever he wanted to my body. You know? And I was really good at faking orgasm. It was definitely something just to get him off me as soon as I could, right? Because I just felt dirty the whole time, when he was on me. It’s amazing how much conditioning that I had created in my head, and this belief that really ate away at my soul. To know that this shame enveloped my whole body and created a wedge in my marriage to where I looked at him as somebody that just used me. You know?    11:10 Daniel: So, I’m really curious. What took you from that experience to what you say on page 56? It’s this idea of being able to embrace very differently. Practice patience, self-compassion, and have a sense of humor about it. That seems like a complete 180 shift.    11:29 Sarah: Yeah. 11:30 Daniel: What was the journey you had from what you’re experiencing, that “pleasure is painful and icky” to this wonderful perspective of even having a sense of humor about it? What led you there?   11:41 Sarah: Well, not an overnight thing. I’ll just say that right now. [laughs] It definitely was, you know, I had this moment--this wake-up call. Sixteen years in, I was fed up. Basically telling myself over and over and over, “Sarah why can’t you figure this out? Why is this so hard for you? Why can’t you just get over this? Why do you look at sex in this perspective?” Just this why, why why. I finally had this moment of surrender. I didn’t talk to anybody, Daniel. I suffered in silence for years. I didn’t talk to my sisters, definitely not my mom, right? Not even my girlfriends, nobody. 12:30 Daniel: That’s what we’re taught. We’re taught to not even talk to our loved one’s about it, even our spouse.   12:34 Sarah: Exactly, exactly. And of course, then Trent would ask, my husband would ask me, “what is it you want?” And I’m like, “well, I don’t know what i want.” I’ve never allowed myself to have conversations and talk about it. He would just ask me question after question to open my mind and see the possibility and then I’d shut him down all the time, right? It was just this constant battle. So finally, it was just this one day, I called Suzanne, right? I refer to her in my book a lot. She was this woman who I met randomly in Guatemala of all places. I just look back and I’m like, it was by divine design that I would meet her that summer of 2017 so that she could open my eyes.   13:20 Daniel: I actually love what you said about Suzanne, is that she started her journey because of romance novels. I like that.   13:29 Sarah: Yeah. I’m not a big romance novel kind of girl but you know, some people are. Anyway we got to talking. We literally...our airbnbs were literally across from each other. I didn’t know Spanish, she didn’t know Spanish, it was a Sunday afternoon, we had nothing else to do--so we got to know each other. And we literally...like, she just opened up to me. We talked about our sex lives, and this ws the very first time I was like, this is a really fun conversation! It was the first time I actually looked at it with clear eyes to see the potential in me and the hope. Because she had already kinda gone through her own little journey, because she was basically me. She gave me hope to look at it with a different set of eyes. I went from a place of--this is where I talk a lot about, in my book--this view of going from a judgement place to being more curious. She allowed me, she gave me permission. It’s interesting how as women, we need permission, you know? 14:44 Daniel: What I’m curious though, is, what was it about Suzanne that allowed you to open up? you have been fighting this for so many years.   14:52 Sarah: Yeah.   14:53 Daniel: What prevented you from putting up another barrier? “Nope, I’m not talking about that, that’s betraying my husband, that’s betraying myself…”   14:57 Sarah: That’s true.   14:58 Daniel: What was it about her that allowed you to open up?    15:03 Sarah: Good question.   15:04 Daniel: I think that’s the biggest thing with women is finding that opportunity and how, because they get into this same place where “I can’t talk about this and I won’t talk about it and I don’t care how familiar I am with you”--so what was it about her>   15:15 Sarah: Yeah. Well, one of the things that I had been studying and learning about...I love Brené Brown, and at that point in my life I’d really been learning vulnerability and authenticity. When she just started talking to me and exposing herself to me, I was .... she gave me permission to therefore share my things, right? There’s power when you can start a conversation and be like, “I’m messed up.” You know? “Here’s all these parts of me that I don’t understand, can you help me kinda walk through this?”    15:53 Sarah: And that’s what she was for me, you know? And I think that’s what really created that safe place for me. She was like my safe place, because we could relate on so many levels, right? And I think when there’s vulnerability and authenticity in any friendship or relationship, there’s definitely power behind that--to be able to know, “hey, I’m not alone. We can do this together.” And I feel like that’s kinda what I’ve been doing now...you know, here’s my mess and I’m creating it into a message and helping other women to understand “you’re not alone. You’re not broken. There’s hope for you.” And I think that’s what's beautiful about this. And that’s what made that shift for me, is to allow myself to just open up, receive the information from this trusted (well, quick-trusted friend, right? I’d just met her) and just share all of me with her. It was quite an experience, that was for sure.   17:00 Daniel: So it sounds like Brené Brown gave you that courage,    17:04 Sarah: Yeah, exactly.   17:04 Daniel: that platform, or, not platform, kinda that foundation that it’s okay to be vulnerable here. But what I think is important for the audience to be aware of is, you’re still really new in your journey. This was very recently. So, you went to, on that trip back in, if I remember right, 2017? 17:20 Sarah: 2017, yeah. 17:21 Daniel: So you’re only like, three years into this. 17:25 Sarah: Yeah. 17:25 Daniel: That is phenomenal! You cranked out a book in sharing your journey. That’s...   17:31 Sarah: Yeah. 17:32 Daniel: So, emotionally, what is that like for you right now? So, kinda step away from the book and this narrative. You really are, in the context of people who are learning themselves, you’re really at the beginning of this journey. So, emotionally, what are you going through right now?   17:52 Sarah: Emotionally, I mean, you know what? I started it...I just consumed as much information as I could. I finally got to this place where I could..   18:06 Daniel: Do you feel like you’re a lot more confident? Or do you feel like you still have a lot of insecurities or vulnerabilities around it? Where do you feel like you’re at? 18:15 Sarah: I totally feel confident in my sexuality now, and that I can say that--I wouldn’t say 100%, for sure--I’m still learning and growing and I think that’s what’s great about understanding your sexuality because it’s going to always evolve and change because there’s just more things we’re gonna find out about ourselves. But, oh man, just to think about where I’ve...even just two years ago...to where I am now, and being able to have emotional connection with my husband, and him understanding how me, as a woman, how I work. And, you know, he takes the time to emotionally connect with me before even getting into the bedroom, you know? And understanding how my body needs to go through this sexual response cycle, which, I talk about that in my book. There’s a lot of therapists out there that talk about the different sexual response cycles that we go through, right? 19:20 Daniel: Exactly. 19:21 Sarah: And just, understanding that.   19:22 Daniel: So you gave yourself permission to get here so that you can help your husband understand your body because in the past, you know, he’s asking what you want, and as you said, you’re there as a dead fish. Just, finish it out. 19:33Sarah: Yeah. 19:34 Daniel: That, I think, is critical. Like I posted in our Improving Intimacy group today this idea of, especially with women, “okay, I’ve given myself permission, now it’s scary.” Was it scary to give yourself permission? Were you afraid of what you discovered? 19:50 Sarah: Oh, yeah! Yeah. So, of course, we’re going to have those fears. It’s part of our human nature, especially when we’ve created so much judgement and shame around it. There’s going to be fear that comes up. And there’s definitely going to be things that we might come across we don’t quite understand, or we definitely judge really quickly, right?    20:18 Sarah: Masturbation being one of them for me. That was a huge, like...I didn’t want to enter that specific subject until I felt comfortable in my body first, and learning the anatomy of my body first, before I could venture into that. So I feel like it’s a series of stepping stones. You kinda have to evolve into and work into. As I started reading all these books, that’s kind of what happened after I met with Suzanne, she gave me a couple books to read--and from there, I just took off. I was like, thirsting for knowledge for the first time in sex. Once I’d read one book, I went to the next book, and then I went to the next book. Just reading so much content that I could get my hands on. It was this, like, basically cry for help and just learning on my couch from all different kinds of therapists and sex experts and human sexuality professors and so many things, and I just was like, “oh my gosh! I’m finally in a place where I can receive this!” And yes, there’s gonna be content out there, once again, that we just kinda have to like, pick and choose, I don’t know, what resonates with you? 21:39 Daniel: I think that’s...I wanna ask you about that.    21:43 Sarah: Sure.   21:44 Daniel: But before I do, I really appreciate you addressing, briefly, in your book, about masturbation. You give a context for it, the history behind it, the fears around it. 21:51 Sarah: Yeah. 21:52 Daniel: What was that journey for you? You’re addressing that fear, you’re realizing, “okay, I need to understand myself.” Some wives feel like, “okay, I do need to figure out my body, but I will not do it without my husband present.    22:05 Sarah: Yeah.    22:06 Daniel: What was it like for you? Did you find that it was more valuable to do it alone so that you could do it without pressure? Or was it important for you to explore that with your spouse? 22:15 Sarah: So, in the beginning, I chose to explore with my husband. And it’s still a work in progress, Daniel [laughs], it’s still kinda like...I’m not fully 100% like going off by myself all the time, you know what I mean? But at the same time, like, it’s kinda going back to this stepping stone thing. I start with my husband to understand, and know, and feel comfortable, and then [...] it’s still just something that I know, I KNOW--that’s the crazy part, I KNOW--that it’s beneficial for me to know what feels good and what doesn’t, you know?    22:56 Daniel: Absolutely.   22:57 Sarah: But then, the shame just creeps in. And I remember this one specific time, I was like, “okay, Sarah.” I was seriously coaching myself! “Okay, Sarah, we can do this. We can do this!” You know? 23:11 Daniel: And you’re talking about when you’re masturbating, you’re trying to... 23:14 Sarah: Yeah!   23:14 Daniel: ...to get into the headspace.   23:15 Sarah: Like, I’ll go and I’ll coach myself and like, I’ll breathe and everything. A really great book, Slow Sex, was really powerful for me, by the way. 23:24 Daniel: Okay, excellent. Excellent book.   23:25 Sarah: Just the breathing, and… yeah.   23:26 Daniel: I think a lot of...so, we’re speaking to an LDS audience or a Christian-based audience. Sometimes, that book isn’t received very well. She talks about a lot of--   23:37 Sarah: Yeah   23:38 Daniel: So, the audience--it’s an excellent book. Excellent book. It does venture into some concepts and ideas that I think are extremely helpful, but be aware, it is not a warning, but just be aware--you're not going out and getting, you know, an LDS book about how to understand your own sexuality. It’s a very raw and in-depth book. Excellent.   24:00 Sarah: Yeah. 24:01 Daniel: So, I think that’s, so that kinda leads me into my second question, or where we left off before I asked this question. There’s so many resources out there. Often, when people try to explore this route, they stay, you know they kind of follow that insecurity be staying on a very safe path of resources. I don’t wanna name any books, I don’t want anybody to feel like they’re being judged around it, but--   24:27 Sarah: Sure.   24:28 Daniel: How did you, for example, Emily Nagoski, that’s not an LDS author. How did you determine which books were good for you? Whether it’s Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, or Natasha [breaks off]   24:39 Sarah: Uh huh.   24:40 Daniel: What was your internal compass to decide, “this is helpful, this is good in my pursuit of my own sexuality, but being within the framework of my faith?” 24:51 Sarah: Sure. The thing is, when you go on Amazon, there’s going to be all kinds of reviews from all over, right? Of course I would read the reviews, that’s what most people do when they go searching for a book. but also, of course, having my friend Suzanne of course had already read a few. So I kinda had an understanding... 25:14 Daniel: [laughs]   25:15 Sarah: ...from some of the things, right? so then there’s also...I did go and actually look them up, not just about their book but just them as a person. I did some research on who they are and like, what are they teaching, what are they, like, out there, like, what’s their message, kind of thing. And so then I felt more comfortable to kinda open up and seek. And of course, I’d go to my city library, right? And go to the sexuality section and I’d just camp out and just kinda peruse books that way. That’s also helpful ‘cause it’s free. It’s not like I’m going to buy a book. But, there’s so many [pauses] there’s amazing people out there doing amazing things, and I just…   26:09 Daniel: So I guess, let me push a little on this, is--for example, with Slow Sex, what kept you from reading that and saying, “whoa. This is way outside of my value system.” 26:17 Sarah: [laughs]   26:18 Daniel: “I shouldn’t be reading this.” And we’re talking about, just three years ago, you’re Sarah who’s just now recognizing all the rigidity around your sexual understanding and lack of understanding with your sexuality.   26:31 Sarah: Yeah.   26:32 Daniel: What kept you from throwing that book aside and saying, “this is horrible”?   26:39 Sarah: Well, I know this sounds really simple, but what I kept coming back to all the time, Daniel, was “Sarah, quit judging it. Be more curious.” 26:50 Daniel: Not simple at all. That is beautiful.   26:54 Sarah: You know, that’s it. That’s all...and that’s what I had to tell myself all the time. “Sarah, you’re looking at oral sex and you’re judging it. How can I be more curious about how it can apply to me and my relationship in my intimate relationship with my husband?” Like, what does that look like, you know? And so [laughs] it really is simple. But it is so profound to me, and it’s carried me the last three years. And that’s why I really hone-in on it in my book. Waking up women to understand, “quit judging it so much,”   27:34 Daniel: Absolutely love it.   27:34 Sarah: “and look at it from a place of curiosity.”   27:35 Daniel: And I think you see that journey as you go through this, like, starting in...what chapter is this? Page 100 or so. You start talking about loving yourself from the inside out. And you do a full inventory: “what do I lack? What am I insecure about?” (I’m putting some of my own words to this, but…) you take the individual through this process and I think that’s key. absolutely key. So, yes, the answer is simple, but boy, the process can be painful. That’s something that I actually warn my clients when I do this similar type of self-inventory. I have them often review themselves: where did they start--I like the word you used, stop judging it, and just learn from it. And I have people start to do this, is “stop judging your body, in fact, look at yourself. You think you have a fat tummy, who told you that? Who defined that for you?”   28:28 Sarah: Exactly.   28:29 Daniel: “Who took away your agency to keep you from actually looking at yourself in the way you should? Who defined it?” And they’ll go through this emotional process, “oh my goodness, that first boy I dated, he made fun of me or he poked me in the tummy and ever since then, I’ve been insecure. I’m not gonna let that dude take away from my agency. I’m gonna choose how to view my body.” And you kinda do a similar thing here.   28:53 Sarah: Yeah. 28:54 Daniel: Tell us a little more about that.   28:55 Sarah: Yeah, so, this is actually my second book. [laughs] I wrote a book 5 years ago called, MindStrength for Women. And it was all about just loving ourselves and overcoming this idea that we’re not enough and we're not good enough, not smart enough, and all these things, right? Of course I, at that time, I did like, I’d learned a lot about myself. And so the crazy part to all that whole story was, I felt amazing and went through a physical change, emotional change, and all these other things, but I kept sex hidden up in the corner, you know? Like in this closet, you know? So when I actually brought sex in, into the light, right? Now I felt like I’d become this whole person, and then like, a wholly unique being.    29:54 Sarah: And I talk about this term called “sexy confidence” in my book, and how as women, it’s not so much about our body or anything of that nature. It’s about, how do we walk into a room, and how do we make people feel? What kind of energy are we bringing into the room? Is this a loving environment? And this is where I kinda had to do this with my husband, too. Because, when you’re in the bedroom, as women, we start to...like, if we even put on a piece of lingerie or something, we start to immediately judge our body that it’s not looking so amazing.    30:35 Sarah: And I talk about, when I’m with women and stuff, I talk about this idea of like, you know, there’s this...we as women get into serious judgement, but when we can come from learning to love ourselves from the way God sees us (because obviously that’s important), that we can be able to be at one with our husbands, even. And not focus so much on the belly fat that’s hanging out when we’re trying to get on top of him, you know? And just like, how we can emotionally connect instead of looking at our bodies and judging every nook and cranny that we don’t like, kind of thing.   31:25 Daniel: Love that.  Now, you jumped into something later on, about how women need novelty. I thought this was interesting. I believe it. I’m one who likes to shatter myths out there. But the prevailing thought is, men need novelty. Women want consistency. Tell me more about this.    31:45 Sarah: Yeah. 31:46 Daniel: I think this is fascinating. I don't think anybody else is addressing it, and I’ve read a lot of books, so tell me a little about your discovery there.   31:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, I think [...] I do believe women, we do need novelty. We just don’t think we need it [laughs]. I don’t know if that makes sense. We do love,   32:11 Daniel: Yes   32:12 Sarah: we like change. I don’t like the same position every time, I mean, anybody else? I mean, once I actually, was the--I mean, yes, I did missionary position for years, trust me, I know. But now that I’ve educated myself and I’ve found other ways to, you know, “quote, unquote” “sized up the bedroom” I actually do thrive on change in the bedroom. It keeps the spark alive and it creates more novelty, you know? 32:43 Daniel: Well, I think that’s important,   32:45 Sarah: Yeah   32:46 Daniel: because I think a lot of men get criticized because they want something new and that’s scary for their partners, but I--   32:51 Sarah: Yeah   32:52 Daniel: You’re realizing, part of the problem is you wanted it to be changed up, you wanted it exciting, you wanted it novel. And I think that’s part of the discovery for a lot of women in discovering their desire is, “wow, I’m realizing I’m not as vanilla as I thought I was.” 33:07 Sarah: Yeah. 33:08 Daniel: “Where will this end?” Were you concerned with that? Did you feel you were gonna go into desires and passions and things that were forbidden for you? What was that experience like for you? 33:19 Sarah: Yeah. Well, of course in the beginning--because, you know, my shame was still enveloped around me in certain points where it would rise up, you know? But then I’d have to open my eyes, like, “Sarah, quit judging it again!” You know? But at the same time, I realized how we can add just more experiences that we haven’t had necessarily before, in like, the safety of our own couple relationship.   33:55 Daniel: Just going back to the concept of not judging it and allow it to flow naturally.    34:01 Sarah: Yeah.   34:02 Daniel: As Emily Nagoski says, don’t put on the brakes. Just... 34:05 Sarah: Yeah, the brakes. I love that analogy, too. Oh my gosh, shes...yeah. Don’t put on the brakes, keep the accelerator going, because, you know. Sometimes, you don’t know if you’re even going to like it. So, quit judging that you’re not going to like it before you even start it, right? And allow yourself to receive. Okay, that’s another thing. Oh my gosh. As women, we give, give, give all day long, to everybody and everything. All the time. Right? So when I was like, “Sarah, you deserve to receive. You get to receive pleasure, you get to receive these different avenues of novelty, and this is okay for you.” Like, once again, I [laughs] I’ve had to coach myself. I do thisl ike, mental inventory in my head before I have sex with my husband. Like, “Sarah, we can do this. It’s fine. This is something that we’ve talked about, we’ve had discussions about this, we feel comfortable that this is something we want to choose to do and explore, and let’s be open to that.” So, yeah. I'm really good at coaching myself now. 35:19 Daniel: Yeah, it sounds like it. Sounds like you’ve come a long way in just three years. I like the other concept you’ve shared about sex drives, desire level. The differences aren’t the problem. Share with the audience what you meant by that.   35:35 Sarah: Differences aren’t the problem. We label ourselves when we first get married [laughs]. Now, like, you know as I’ve learned, not all men are higher desire partners, okay? Right? 35:49 Daniel: Not at all, right. 35:50 Sarah: Right. And so, we are really quick to label who’s higher, who’s lower, you know? And we, there’s a …. do you want me to quote books in here? 36:05 Daniel: Absolutely! Tell your story. Yep. 36:08 Sarah: Okay. One of the books, Passion Paradox, have you heard of that book? 36:13 Daniel: Actually, no, I haven’t read nor have I heard of it.   36:16 Sarah: Okay, I’m trying to think of the author right now, but it was...it’s like, an old book. It was like....it’s old. But anyway, there’s this...he talks about this whole idea of passion. Because, sometimes like, as women, we label ourselves as lower desire, say that we are, right? And we view the partner as the higher desire. But there’s different ways of expressing and showing passion to each other. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be just like a sexual thing. Sometimes, in different seasons of our lives, we kinda ebb and flow, and you know, go from one extreme to another or something. And I think this whole idea that we put labels is unfortunate, because I chose to give myself that label for all those years, and I clung on to it. And I would just view my husband, like, “you just want sex all the time. And I’m just gonna sit here, and just kinda vent to you that I don’t wanna have it, because I’ve already labelled myself that I don’t want it.”   37:30 Daniel: As opposed to learning how to meet the needs of each other.   37:33 Sarah: Yeah, yeah. 37:34 Daniel: I think that theme is so important throughout your book. I refer to it as breaking the culture of sexual silence, and I love that you hit on it throughout the entirety of your book. Especially, I believe, in chapter 14 talking about it. Even if I don’t know a lot about it, talk about it. Talk about it. Talk about everything you know about sex, and become comfortable with it. That is so important. As you learned early on with your mom, and with other friends, you couldn’t talk about it. And that is one of the biggest desire killers and barriers to education. So, learning how to break that culture of silence around sexuality, even when you don’t know fully what you’re talking about, start to share. That’s what we do. As kids, we talk about things we don’t know, and then parents correct us. People inform us. You go into it non-judgmentally, again, another thing that you carry throughout the book. Absolutely wonderful. You want to tell us a little bit about how you...what that was like for you as you realized you’re in this process, you’re learning. What were some of the fears, hesitations, or positive experiences you had with sharing freely your knowledge?   38:45 Sarah: Ok, so, you know I’m reading all these books, right? And consuming everything that I could. And I just, I remember always just like walking out, like, in public, you know, in Target or wherever, and seeing all these women. And I”m like, “oh. If they only knew. oh if they only knew.” Right? [laughs] and there’s a point where…’cause I truly believe I’ve obviously come to a place where I--and you’ve seen this in my book--I’m a realist. Like, I really share the dark sides of me, and my hang-ups and everything, and I’m okay with it. I've come to a place where I don’t have this fear of judgement of what other people might think of me, because I’ve realized that the more I share, the more respect I get from people. And so, as I was reading all these things, and I’m going out into public and I see all these women, and I’m just wondering, “I wonder if she’s like...if she was like me.” Because I’m now, not. I don’t really...it’s hard for me, sometimes, to even take myself back, even three years ago, to where I was. Because I’m so much more happier now. But sometimes i have to take myself there so that I can be, you know, relatable, to other women, right? So, of course in our LDS culture, [laughs] I have definitely … I’ve lost friendships. I’ll be honest.   40:18 Daniel: What do you mean? I think I know what you’re talking about there, because I’ve experience the same, but share with the audience what that means. Just because you’re being passionate and open about sexuality, you lost friends? 40:28 Sarah: Yeah. 40:29 Daniel: What happened there? 40:30 Sarah: Yeah, so...just in small conversations, or I might have written like a post or something on facebook about a book that I was reading. And then it just rubs somebody the wrong way, you know? And I've actually had a few friends who’ve vocally come and told me that they don’t agree with what I’m talking about and learning about. And that’s fine. It was of course hard to hear, ‘cause it’s like a blow. It’s like this form of rejection that you don’t want to ever experience in your life. But at the same time, there was like, 30+ women behind me saying “thank you. I learned so much from you,” you know? And so, it’s just our human nature to cling-on to those one or two people that give you that negative comment, right? But it definitely propelled me to keep sharing, because I know how my life has changed because of it. And my marriage has changed because of it. And I can’t deny it.    41:43 Sarah: So as I’ve opened up about it, and talked to people within my neighborhood or community, like I just know that I am making strides with people. I actually, just yesterday, I had a friend who had finally come around. I’ve been talking to her for like, since I started reading books, and just recently she was like, “Sarah, I think I’m ready.” You know? And you just have to kinda wait for those people to come around, and they will, eventually. And they’ll realize just how powerful this can be, when they can open and be more curious to see what their life can be like if they chose to look at it with a different perspective.    42:34 Daniel: Absolutely.   42:35 Sarah: So yeah. 42:35 Daniel: In other words, you’re not pushing your narrative. 42:36 Sarah: No.   42:38 Daniel: People know what you know.   42:38 Sarah: No, yeah. 42:40 Daniel: Because, you’re open about it. And you’re waiting for them to come and seek you out. 42:43 Sarah: Yeah. 42:44 Daniel: That’s excellent. 42:45 Sarah: Exactly. yeah, just kinda wait for them and whenever they’re ready, I’ll be there with open arms to teach them and to guide them through their own experience. The crazy part is [laughs] I have no desire to be a sex therapist like yourself, or you know, go and be a professor or anything of that nature. I just love learning about it. I feel like, I don’t know, I guess people can kind of resonate more with a girl off the street I guess first, and then I can guide them to therapists or whoever else they need help with, right? Because I obviously don’t have all the tools, but I’m their starting point, you know? And that’s what I love about me being open about it, is that I can be their starting point and then they can move from there to seek more professional help if they need it, you know? 43:41 Daniel: Absolutely. What a wonderful theme that you’ve carried out through the book. I think it’s been wonderfully done, I think you’ve communicated well. Are there...as we wrap up here, is there anything else about the book or your experiences that you feel is important for the audience to know about you, and your journey, or maybe possibly the journey that they’re going through? 44:02 Sarah: Oh yeah, I mean, as you [...] just, the book, in and of itself, it just breaks down so many things. You know, out there in our audience, you  might have someone who feels like they are broken, right? Or, they feel like, that there’s no hope in their marriage. We didn’t even touch on porn, that’s a whole-nother enchilada in and of itself…   44:28 Daniel: So, I… hold off on that, because I--   44:31 Sarah: [laughs]   44:31 Daniel: I love that you refer to porn the way you did in your book, as a compulsion, as a temptation, as a potential device in a marriage or [pauses] divisiveness in a marriage.    44:45 Sarah: Yeah.   44:46 Daniel: And I love the language that you used in there, and I would be interested in exploring that a little more, if you’d like. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about it, and why you included it? 44:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, obviously from personal experience, it was not me, it was my husband’s, right? I think it’s just, he actually, it was the [....]  I remember the day, and I’m sure a lot of men and women here can remember the day that their spouse came to them with this news, right? Or they found out in some other way, right? That’ll be a day that you won’t ever forget.    45:24 Sarah: But, that day, he came and approached me, and it was during this time that I had finished writing my first book. And I was, like I said before, I was in a really good place, and just felt pretty good about life because I was working on myself. And I think that’s what’s key here, in this chapter particularly, is, whether man or woman, right? Really focus on, what are you doing in the relationship? What can you do to better yourself, to become a better version of yourself? And that’s kinda where i was at that point, luckily.    46:01 Sarah: And that’s when Trent felt comfortable to actually approach me and tell me about his porn addiction. Because, you know, he had these fears that I would leave him and all these things, right? Like everybody might have. And he came, and he told me, and it was just this, you know, gut-wrenching kind of feeling. And the first question that came into my mind, “what’s wrong with me? Why does he feel like he has to do this? I can’t believe he’s done this. He’s this amazing man, how did porn get a hold of him?” Kind of thing. And so, back then, I was doing a lot of video journaling, and so after he told me, I just was like, “kay, just hold on a second, I need to go into my closet and kinda think about this.”    46:48 Sarah: So, I went to my closet and for ten minutes I just kind of, just like, talked to myself. Like, just basically went through, in my head, what I’d just heard. And, it’s interesting, I still have this video and I treasure it, but...so you’ll notice (well, you won’t notice, because you’re not watching it), but in the first five minutes, I’m just like, processing, like, “why him? Why me?” Everything right? This pity party. And then, the last five minutes, I just kinda make this shift. It was God telling me, “Sarah, he’s a son of God.” And that’s all I heard. That’s all I heard, and I knew that I needed to walk with him in this journey.    47:34 Sarah: I was not to fix him, because I can’t fix him, right? But I can walk with him to, you know, figure out how to help him navigate, you know, and how to get the help that he needed kind of stuff. And so, that was [...] once again, it’s a simple thing, but that was the one thing that really carried me through that experience. Just recognizing that he’s a son of God and together we can work through the porn addiction, and we can come out on top. And we definitely have. And it’s been an incredible experience. But there’s definitely been pain. It hasn’t been easy. But, there’s definitely a light at the end of the tunnel.   48:22 Daniel: A lot of people are listening, saying, “okay, yeah, you just shared he just dumped this big thing on you.” And if I remember right, you even equate pornography to adultery, or cheating, on the relationship, am I remembering correctly? 48:39 Sarah: Yeah. 48:39 Daniel: That’s a very big view to have. One that, generally, is very divisive in a relationship. And you also refer to it as an addiction. And if anybody’s been in my group, they know how sensitive I am about that terminology.    48:54 Sarah: Yeah.   48:54 Daniel: You actually went and learned a lot from Cameron Staley, 48:58: Oh, man. 48:59 Daniel: about mindfulness, which is not an addiction approach, it’s a very mindful approach. 49:03Sarah: Yeah. 49:03 Daniel: Which is very much in harmony with the theme of your book: non-judgemental, non-rigid around these things but being more mindful and self-aware. 49:15 Sarah: Self-awareness is huge, yeah. 49:17 Daniel: And I think that led you to this [...] because usually, the concepts of addiction don’t lead you into the direction that you’re talking about, in fact, it leads you in a very opposite direction. But I love that mindfulness, and fortunately, meeting up with Cameron, or whatever you learned from him, it led you to this idea.   49:34 Sarah: Yeah. 49:35 Daniel: One of the concepts that you shared there was, and I’m gonna put it in my terminology: “I don’t view sex as a punishment or reward, I view it as communcation.” And you talk about there, “yes, it’s not your fault, and you as the wife, you’re not responsible for his behavior. However, why are you punishing him by not giving him sex? Is that your because of your insecurity?” I realize I’m butchering your words, I’m putting in mine.   49:59 Sarah: Yeah. 50:00 Daniel: And correct me if I’m misrepresenting your train of thought there. But, you're saying, “embrace them. Don’t withhold sex because of mabye, your insecurities.”   50:09 Sarah: Yep, that’s the worst thing you could do, is to withhold it.   50:10 Daniel: Absolutely, absolutely. Although, giving them sex, you shouldn’t have this expecation: now, he’s gonna be safe, you know? In fact, I think you pointed that out, if I remember right. 50:20 Sarah: Yes, I did. 50:21 Daniel: You said somethinglike, “okay, I’m gonna give him all”--because some women do that--”I’m gonna give him all the sex he needs so he avoids it.”   50:26 Sarah: Then he won’t even go look, yeah.   50:27 Daniel: And that’s a reward or punishment approach, as opposed to communication and connecting.   50:33 Sarah: Yes. 50:33 Daniel: And so, ironically, taking that other approach of withholding or giving too much, is very much objectification, and divisive in the relationship. It’s not connected. And so I love that you embrace that idea, of “it’s not my responsibility, but I’m not going to miss this opportunity to connect with my partner. Because I view porn in this context”--whatever it is-- “I’m not going to let that get in my way of connecting with my partner.” I thought that was beautiful.   51:02 Sarah: Yeah, just finding that middle ground. I mean, I remember coming home and asking anything I could about porn. Because, I had no idea what that world was like. None. And so, it blew my mind to see, like, wow. I really don’t know anything! But at the same time, like, let’s come together and have conversations to see, like, how we can navigate this new normal. Come to a middle ground to connect. I mean, we uh, this could be a whole-nother podcast. That definitely, that experience...I mean, it didn’t take me on my sex journey, because I found out about this, probably like 5 years ago.    51:51 Daniel: You mean, his use of porn? 51:54 Sarah: Yes, his use of porn. And so, there were still a couple years in between there where I was just trying to like, you know, I’d have [...] our communication was better, it wasn’t the best as it is now, but we were definitely communicating. And I wasn't that one that was like, you know, denying him and like, that kind of thing. Because, I was kind of understanding how, you know, I needed to create this middle ground to see how we can evolve into something better. And so then, when I finally accepted like, “okay, I need to work on my sexuality,” then that took us to a whole-nother level. And he’s been amazing and [pauses], yeah. He doesn’t have those compulsions anymore and even if he does, he comes and talks to me about it, you know? And so, we’ve created a very healthy relationship in regards to porn.    52:52 Daniel: Sarah, that is wonderful. I would actually really love having you on again, at a future time, to talk about that.    52:58 Sarah: Yeah. 53:00 Daniel: Again, the book is Underneath it All...You’re Naked. Wonderful theme throughout the book. I think you did an amazing job with it, and I think the audience would really benefit from it. Thank you so much for coming on.   53:11 Sarah: Thank you. Aw, yeah, it’s been a pleasure. I appreciate you letting me have an opportunity to share my story. 53:18 Daniel: Thank you.   53:18 Sarah: It’s always something I like to talk about [laughs].   53:20 Daniel: Oh, clearly, 53:21 Sarah: It changed my life. Like, literally changed my life.   53:24 Daniel: Yeah. Your journey has been--   53:25 Sarah: Saved me. 53:26 Daniel: amazing. Thank you so much, Sarah. 53:28 Sarah: You’re welcome. [music]  

Daniel: So Hana, I'm planning my first trip to Japan, but since I've never been there I'm not really sure what I should do. Is there anything you can help me with?Hana: Well first you should definitely go to a temple or a shrine. It describes Japan. And there are many famous temples all over Japan. So you should definitely visit one.Daniel: Okay, that sounds really interesting. Anything else that I should try? How about for example, Japanese food?Hana: Well Japanese food is very famous, for example, fish like sushi or sashimi, Japanese people love it, and so does foreign people.Daniel: Yeah, especially because sushi is getting really, really popular everywhere now. So I'm really looking forward to trying proper Japanese sushi. How about anything else, any like cultural experience or something that Japanese people do every day?Hana: Well you should try and go to an onsen, it's a hot spring, it's a big bath where you can all go. It'll be different and it would be kind of weird at first. But I'm sure you'll enjoy it.Daniel: Why do you say it's going to be weird?Hana: Well a lot of people at first, they're embarrassed to be naked in front of people. But once you get used to it, you'll enjoy it and you would want to go every day.Daniel: Yeah. I'm not sure if I'm okay with being naked in front of people. But if you say that I have to try it I probably will. Do you have any big celebrations or any like big events that I can see in Japan?Hana: Well, in Japan there are many festivals all around the year. For example, in the summertime, there is a huge festival where there is parades and you get to see the fireworks and you can see people in their traditional yukata. And you can try lots of food too.Daniel: Oh, that sounds really interesting, especially because I'm going in summer. Is there anything I shouldn't do in Japan or that I should be really careful with?Hana: Well, Japan is a very quiet country and a very polite country. So you shouldn't be too loud or you should be polite to older people.Daniel: Well yeah, I'm trying to keep that in mind, because especially my friends are quite loud. Thank you very much for the tips.Hana: You're welcome.

Daniel: So Hana, I'm planning my first trip to Japan, but since I've never been there I'm not really sure what I should do. Is there anything you can help me with?Hana: Well first you should definitely go to a temple or a shrine. It describes Japan. And there are many famous temples all over Japan. So you should definitely visit one.Daniel: Okay, that sounds really interesting. Anything else that I should try? How about for example, Japanese food?Hana: Well Japanese food is very famous, for example, fish like sushi or sashimi, Japanese people love it, and so does foreign people.Daniel: Yeah, especially because sushi is getting really, really popular everywhere now. So I'm really looking forward to trying proper Japanese sushi. How about anything else, any like cultural experience or something that Japanese people do every day?Hana: Well you should try and go to an onsen, it's a hot spring, it's a big bath where you can all go. It'll be different and it would be kind of weird at first. But I'm sure you'll enjoy it.Daniel: Why do you say it's going to be weird?Hana: Well a lot of people at first, they're embarrassed to be naked in front of people. But once you get used to it, you'll enjoy it and you would want to go every day.Daniel: Yeah. I'm not sure if I'm okay with being naked in front of people. But if you say that I have to try it I probably will. Do you have any big celebrations or any like big events that I can see in Japan?Hana: Well, in Japan there are many festivals all around the year. For example, in the summertime, there is a huge festival where there is parades and you get to see the fireworks and you can see people in their traditional yukata. And you can try lots of food too.Daniel: Oh, that sounds really interesting, especially because I'm going in summer. Is there anything I shouldn't do in Japan or that I should be really careful with?Hana: Well, Japan is a very quiet country and a very polite country. So you shouldn't be too loud or you should be polite to older people.Daniel: Well yeah, I'm trying to keep that in mind, because especially my friends are quite loud. Thank you very much for the tips.Hana: You're welcome.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Hey Hana, you know, I had a horrible dream last night, horrible.Hana: Really, what is it about?Daniel: Well I can't tell you because it might become true so I'm not going tell, I'm just going to tell you I had a horrible dream, that's it.Hana: No, no, you have to tell me like I heard that you have to tell otherwise that will come true.Daniel: No, no, it's the opposite, trust me. So, do you dream a lot?Hana: Ahm, well yes, I usually remember my dream every day but I forget it so I don't really remember it now.Daniel: Oh because, you know, I've been reading a lot about dreams because lately I've been dreaming a lot and people said that you dream every single night but the difference is whether if you remember the dream or not, so do you know that?Hana: Yeah, I read something similar to that. I heard that you dream seven dreams like seven different stories.Daniel: Seven?Hana: Yeah and you only remember the fourth and fifth dream.Daniel: Why is that?Hana: I don't know, you only can remember the fourth or fifth so that's why sometimes when you have a dream, there are many different stories.Daniel: So that means if what we read is true it's like we dream every night and every night we dream seven different stories.Hana: Yes and I heard it's good if you write your dreams down while you remember it and it's really interesting.Daniel: Yeah it is but even if you remember the dreams because that has happened to me, you wake up, you remember the dream but really quickly and really say you forget the dream. Has that happen to you?Hana: Yeah, that happens to me a lot that's why I think really should keep a diary of my dreams because I heard a lot of things that you dream about can be hints for your life or what you're thinking.Daniel: Oh that's really interesting so well, I think I'm going to get a notebook or something and keep it, you know, on my bedside table.Hana: Yeah, me too.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Hey Hana, you know, I had a horrible dream last night, horrible.Hana: Really, what is it about?Daniel: Well I can't tell you because it might become true so I'm not going tell, I'm just going to tell you I had a horrible dream, that's it.Hana: No, no, you have to tell me like I heard that you have to tell otherwise that will come true.Daniel: No, no, it's the opposite, trust me. So, do you dream a lot?Hana: Ahm, well yes, I usually remember my dream every day but I forget it so I don't really remember it now.Daniel: Oh because, you know, I've been reading a lot about dreams because lately I've been dreaming a lot and people said that you dream every single night but the difference is whether if you remember the dream or not, so do you know that?Hana: Yeah, I read something similar to that. I heard that you dream seven dreams like seven different stories.Daniel: Seven?Hana: Yeah and you only remember the fourth and fifth dream.Daniel: Why is that?Hana: I don't know, you only can remember the fourth or fifth so that's why sometimes when you have a dream, there are many different stories.Daniel: So that means if what we read is true it's like we dream every night and every night we dream seven different stories.Hana: Yes and I heard it's good if you write your dreams down while you remember it and it's really interesting.Daniel: Yeah it is but even if you remember the dreams because that has happened to me, you wake up, you remember the dream but really quickly and really say you forget the dream. Has that happen to you?Hana: Yeah, that happens to me a lot that's why I think really should keep a diary of my dreams because I heard a lot of things that you dream about can be hints for your life or what you're thinking.Daniel: Oh that's really interesting so well, I think I'm going to get a notebook or something and keep it, you know, on my bedside table.Hana: Yeah, me too.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: So we're talking about holidays. Is there any really, really good holidays that you remember?Hana: Well, one of my favorite holidays was when I went to Greece a couple of years ago with my family.Daniel: Wow, Greece, I've never been there. How is it? Sounds really, really nice.Hana: Greece is a very beautiful country. The houses are ... everything is so white and the beaches are so beautiful.Daniel: So what did you do in Greece?Hana: Mainly I just relaxed at the swimming pool and at the beaches. And at night time I went shopping with my mum. And we had some really nice food too.Daniel: Oh, that sounds really interesting, like the perfect holidays. So you said you went with your family, right?Hana: Yes, I went with my mum and dad and brother.Daniel: And for how long did you go there?Hana: We went for four days. And when we went there was a big football tournament. And so everybody was so happy and excited. And at night times everybody will start dancing. And so me and my brother, we would join and dance with them.Daniel: Cool! So did you get to see any of those matches of the tournament?Hana: Yes, I went to see one match with my dad and I had so much fun.Daniel: Oh, it sounds really cool, like really nice holidays.Hana: Yes, it was one of my best holidays.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: So we're talking about holidays. Is there any really, really good holidays that you remember?Hana: Well, one of my favorite holidays was when I went to Greece a couple of years ago with my family.Daniel: Wow, Greece, I've never been there. How is it? Sounds really, really nice.Hana: Greece is a very beautiful country. The houses are ... everything is so white and the beaches are so beautiful.Daniel: So what did you do in Greece?Hana: Mainly I just relaxed at the swimming pool and at the beaches. And at night time I went shopping with my mum. And we had some really nice food too.Daniel: Oh, that sounds really interesting, like the perfect holidays. So you said you went with your family, right?Hana: Yes, I went with my mum and dad and brother.Daniel: And for how long did you go there?Hana: We went for four days. And when we went there was a big football tournament. And so everybody was so happy and excited. And at night times everybody will start dancing. And so me and my brother, we would join and dance with them.Daniel: Cool! So did you get to see any of those matches of the tournament?Hana: Yes, I went to see one match with my dad and I had so much fun.Daniel: Oh, it sounds really cool, like really nice holidays.Hana: Yes, it was one of my best holidays.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Hey, Vella. Well we're talking about things, big things you want to achieve in your life, so how about you? What do want to do?Vella: Well, one of my biggest dreams is to become an actress.Daniel: Uh-uh.Vella: Because I really love acting and, you know, it would be fun to act in a movie and to play, you know, as a different character than who you really are.Daniel: Uh-uh. What kind of movies especially, do you have any preferences?Vella: I would love to try all characters. You know, maybe play in a horror movie or comedy or romance, anything.Daniel: Where do you want to do this? Back in Indonesia, in the States?Vella: Well, I would love to become a Hollywood actress, but it might be too impossible so I would just try in Indonesia first, and maybe if I can go international, then that would be amazing.Daniel: OK, good. Do you have any, like do you want to do it within ten years or something?Vella: Well, since I'm graduating pretty soon, I would love to try, you know, as soon as I get back to Indonesia.Daniel: Uh-uh.Vella: And, you know, start trying to go to agencies.Daniel: Is there any other dream that you want to achieve?Vella: This might sound silly, but I love Ricky Martin.Daniel: Uh-uh.Vella: And, you know, I really want to have the chance to meet him and maybe dance with him.Daniel: OK.Vella: Because he's Latino and I'm really into Latin culture, and I know that dancing is really, you know, a big part of the culture.Daniel: Oh, yeah, it is.Vella: And it will be really amazing if I could just dance, you know, with Ricky Martin.Daniel: He's a really good dancer.Vella: And maybe I could be in his music video.Daniel: That would be nice. That would be really, really nice.Vella: And the last thing is probably get married and start my own family.Daniel: Uh-uh. How is that going? Do you have any plans? Do you have a boyfriend, like do you have any...?Vella: Well, I'm in a relationship right now, so hopefully that goes well.Daniel: Oh, good. So you want to start a family right?Vella: Yes.Daniel: How many children would you like to have?Vella: Two to three, maximum three.Daniel: Two to three, OK.Vella: I would love to have twins.Daniel: Wow, why?Vella: A girl and a boy so ....Daniel: Why?Vella: I don't know.Daniel: Oh, it sounds, it sounds really fun.Vella: Because no one in my family, you know, has twins, so I think it would be cool to be the first one to have twins.Daniel: But at the same time, it seems to me to be quite hard to raise like twins because everything comes double, you know.Vella: It's the same thing as having like two or three children, you know, you just get them at the same time.Daniel: That's why it's even harder because you have, I don't know, double expenses, double everything.Vella: Yeah, well I'd just love to try having twins.Daniel: No, great, that sounds like a good plan. Thanks.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Hey, Vella. Well we're talking about things, big things you want to achieve in your life, so how about you? What do want to do?Vella: Well, one of my biggest dreams is to become an actress.Daniel: Uh-uh.Vella: Because I really love acting and, you know, it would be fun to act in a movie and to play, you know, as a different character than who you really are.Daniel: Uh-uh. What kind of movies especially, do you have any preferences?Vella: I would love to try all characters. You know, maybe play in a horror movie or comedy or romance, anything.Daniel: Where do you want to do this? Back in Indonesia, in the States?Vella: Well, I would love to become a Hollywood actress, but it might be too impossible so I would just try in Indonesia first, and maybe if I can go international, then that would be amazing.Daniel: OK, good. Do you have any, like do you want to do it within ten years or something?Vella: Well, since I'm graduating pretty soon, I would love to try, you know, as soon as I get back to Indonesia.Daniel: Uh-uh.Vella: And, you know, start trying to go to agencies.Daniel: Is there any other dream that you want to achieve?Vella: This might sound silly, but I love Ricky Martin.Daniel: Uh-uh.Vella: And, you know, I really want to have the chance to meet him and maybe dance with him.Daniel: OK.Vella: Because he's Latino and I'm really into Latin culture, and I know that dancing is really, you know, a big part of the culture.Daniel: Oh, yeah, it is.Vella: And it will be really amazing if I could just dance, you know, with Ricky Martin.Daniel: He's a really good dancer.Vella: And maybe I could be in his music video.Daniel: That would be nice. That would be really, really nice.Vella: And the last thing is probably get married and start my own family.Daniel: Uh-uh. How is that going? Do you have any plans? Do you have a boyfriend, like do you have any...?Vella: Well, I'm in a relationship right now, so hopefully that goes well.Daniel: Oh, good. So you want to start a family right?Vella: Yes.Daniel: How many children would you like to have?Vella: Two to three, maximum three.Daniel: Two to three, OK.Vella: I would love to have twins.Daniel: Wow, why?Vella: A girl and a boy so ....Daniel: Why?Vella: I don't know.Daniel: Oh, it sounds, it sounds really fun.Vella: Because no one in my family, you know, has twins, so I think it would be cool to be the first one to have twins.Daniel: But at the same time, it seems to me to be quite hard to raise like twins because everything comes double, you know.Vella: It's the same thing as having like two or three children, you know, you just get them at the same time.Daniel: That's why it's even harder because you have, I don't know, double expenses, double everything.Vella: Yeah, well I'd just love to try having twins.Daniel: No, great, that sounds like a good plan. Thanks.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Hey, Vella, how are you?Vella: I'm good. How are you?Daniel: I'm well thanks. Just wanted to ask you what's your favorite movie?Vella: OK, I have one all-time Indonesian favorite movie.Daniel: Uh, uh.Vella: And it's called Lima Juanita, Lima Kintai, Lima Macharita.Daniel: What's, what's the name of it in English?Vella: In English, the translation would be Five Women, Five Love and Five Stories.Daniel: Uh, uh. What is it about?Vella: OK, it's basically about five women with different love stories and one of them, her parents died when she was really young.Daniel: OK.Vella: She couldn't get a better job so she ended up being a prostitute.Daniel: That's really sad.Vella: Yeah, it is and the second one, she, her husband had an affair with her best friend and the third one, she couldn't get a boyfriend all her life. You know, she was really struggling to find the right guy.Daniel: Uh, uh.Vella: And I think she was really busy trying, you know, to find the guy that fulfills all her stereos, that she ends up, you know, not finding anyone.Daniel: Hm, hm.Vella: And the fourth one, she got married only for eleven months and one day before the anniversary her husband died in a car accident.Daniel: Oh.Vella: Yeah, it was a really sad movie but, you know, you learned a lot from it.Daniel: Yeah, it sounds really, really sad and really depressing.Vella: It is. I cried actually watching it. You know, as a girl I learned a lot from it and, you know, it opened my eyes to, you know, society and how women are, you know, treated and how they experience, you know, love stories.Daniel: OK. So how did the movie help Indonesian people to the movie? How is, did they like it, did they thought it was like only sad or did everyone thought like, I don't know, we can learn from this?Vella: Well, I've read this website. They have, you know, many comments on the movie and I think most of the watchers were, you know, female audiences and a lot of them really related well to the movie and they really took it as, you know, a positive.Daniel: OK. And so it's, all the stories are quite related to Indonesian kind of reality?Vella: Yeah, pretty much.Daniel: But, so how's the relation between like Indonesian movie industry and Hollywood movie industry? Which one is bigger?Vella: Well, I think people in Indonesia are more attracted to Hollywood movies just because they have, you know, better storylines and I think a lot of us are really into, you know, Hollywood actresses and actors.Daniel: Hm, hm.Vella: So, you know, they are more interested in watching Hollywood movies.Daniel: OK.Vella: Than Indonesian.Daniel: OK. But the Indonesian industry is still...Vella: Is still really big, yeah.Daniel: Really big, OK. OK, thanks.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Hey, Vella, how are you?Vella: I'm good. How are you?Daniel: I'm well thanks. Just wanted to ask you what's your favorite movie?Vella: OK, I have one all-time Indonesian favorite movie.Daniel: Uh, uh.Vella: And it's called Lima Juanita, Lima Kintai, Lima Macharita.Daniel: What's, what's the name of it in English?Vella: In English, the translation would be Five Women, Five Love and Five Stories.Daniel: Uh, uh. What is it about?Vella: OK, it's basically about five women with different love stories and one of them, her parents died when she was really young.Daniel: OK.Vella: She couldn't get a better job so she ended up being a prostitute.Daniel: That's really sad.Vella: Yeah, it is and the second one, she, her husband had an affair with her best friend and the third one, she couldn't get a boyfriend all her life. You know, she was really struggling to find the right guy.Daniel: Uh, uh.Vella: And I think she was really busy trying, you know, to find the guy that fulfills all her stereos, that she ends up, you know, not finding anyone.Daniel: Hm, hm.Vella: And the fourth one, she got married only for eleven months and one day before the anniversary her husband died in a car accident.Daniel: Oh.Vella: Yeah, it was a really sad movie but, you know, you learned a lot from it.Daniel: Yeah, it sounds really, really sad and really depressing.Vella: It is. I cried actually watching it. You know, as a girl I learned a lot from it and, you know, it opened my eyes to, you know, society and how women are, you know, treated and how they experience, you know, love stories.Daniel: OK. So how did the movie help Indonesian people to the movie? How is, did they like it, did they thought it was like only sad or did everyone thought like, I don't know, we can learn from this?Vella: Well, I've read this website. They have, you know, many comments on the movie and I think most of the watchers were, you know, female audiences and a lot of them really related well to the movie and they really took it as, you know, a positive.Daniel: OK. And so it's, all the stories are quite related to Indonesian kind of reality?Vella: Yeah, pretty much.Daniel: But, so how's the relation between like Indonesian movie industry and Hollywood movie industry? Which one is bigger?Vella: Well, I think people in Indonesia are more attracted to Hollywood movies just because they have, you know, better storylines and I think a lot of us are really into, you know, Hollywood actresses and actors.Daniel: Hm, hm.Vella: So, you know, they are more interested in watching Hollywood movies.Daniel: OK.Vella: Than Indonesian.Daniel: OK. But the Indonesian industry is still...Vella: Is still really big, yeah.Daniel: Really big, OK. OK, thanks.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Well we're talking about men and being macho and stuff like that but recently there's the whole thing about being metrosexual, right? What do you think about that?Vella: I have no problem with, you know, metrosexual because I think, you know, everyone has the right to look good and to take care of themselves even for men.Daniel: Uh, uh.Vella: For example, David Beckham, he's one example of metrosexual guys and I think he looks amazing with the underwear he dresses. Yeah, I have no problem.Daniel: Yeah, yeah but like one thing it's about how you dress and, because metrosexual people they don't, I mean they do care of a lot of other things not only clothes, right? They take care of their hair, I don't know, their faces. I don't know, so many things they do that not a lot of people do especially men. You know, they take care of their nails, their hands, and for some people that might be a bit weird. What do you think as a woman? Do you like it, you don't? It's too much? What is it?Vella: I'm OK with that, just not too much though.Daniel: OK.Vella: Like for example, I mean guys in rock bands they usually wear makeup, like eyeliner, and I'm actually really into that.Daniel: OK.Vella: And I don't know if you know this guy called Adam Lambert, he was the winner of American Idol last season.Daniel: Oh, yeah.Vella: And he wears a lot of, you know, eyeliner and yeah I think it's pretty cool.Daniel: But I don't know, as a girl for example, because OK usually makeup and stuff like that are more related to girls, right? So what if your boyfriend is a metrosexual and he knows or he has more makeup than you have, how does that make you feel?Vella: Well I wouldn't, you know, choose a metrosexual guy to be my boyfriend but, you know, I think it's OK for guys to wear makeup just not too much.Daniel: Uh, uh.Vella: I mean only eyeliner I think is fine but if he starts wearing blusher or lipstick, you know, there's something wrong with them.Daniel: OK. So how about all the other things they do that they take care a lot of their bodies? How about that?Vella: I think it's totally fine, you know, taking care of yourself. I think it shows that you really care about, you know, how you look.Daniel: I had a discussion with a female friend before and she totally agreed that boys should take care of themselves like a bit more because I mean, yeah, the whole macho thing I think it's appealing but at the same time I don't think, I don't think it's fair that like boys expect girls to take care of themselves and to be pretty, to look pretty, I don't know makeup, the hair, the nails, but boys sometimes, I mean I don't think girls want to go out with a monkey, you know. It's like, you have to take care of themselves, of yourself, it's not fair that girls have to put all the effort and boys, you know, just don't do anything. So I agree with the thing that, I mean it's all right, we have to take care of ourselves and we have to try to look better but I'm not used to the whole makeup and stuff so personally I don't do it and I don't think I will be comfortable doing it. So I don't know.Vella: Absolutely, I agree.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Well we're talking about men and being macho and stuff like that but recently there's the whole thing about being metrosexual, right? What do you think about that?Vella: I have no problem with, you know, metrosexual because I think, you know, everyone has the right to look good and to take care of themselves even for men.Daniel: Uh, uh.Vella: For example, David Beckham, he's one example of metrosexual guys and I think he looks amazing with the underwear he dresses. Yeah, I have no problem.Daniel: Yeah, yeah but like one thing it's about how you dress and, because metrosexual people they don't, I mean they do care of a lot of other things not only clothes, right? They take care of their hair, I don't know, their faces. I don't know, so many things they do that not a lot of people do especially men. You know, they take care of their nails, their hands, and for some people that might be a bit weird. What do you think as a woman? Do you like it, you don't? It's too much? What is it?Vella: I'm OK with that, just not too much though.Daniel: OK.Vella: Like for example, I mean guys in rock bands they usually wear makeup, like eyeliner, and I'm actually really into that.Daniel: OK.Vella: And I don't know if you know this guy called Adam Lambert, he was the winner of American Idol last season.Daniel: Oh, yeah.Vella: And he wears a lot of, you know, eyeliner and yeah I think it's pretty cool.Daniel: But I don't know, as a girl for example, because OK usually makeup and stuff like that are more related to girls, right? So what if your boyfriend is a metrosexual and he knows or he has more makeup than you have, how does that make you feel?Vella: Well I wouldn't, you know, choose a metrosexual guy to be my boyfriend but, you know, I think it's OK for guys to wear makeup just not too much.Daniel: Uh, uh.Vella: I mean only eyeliner I think is fine but if he starts wearing blusher or lipstick, you know, there's something wrong with them.Daniel: OK. So how about all the other things they do that they take care a lot of their bodies? How about that?Vella: I think it's totally fine, you know, taking care of yourself. I think it shows that you really care about, you know, how you look.Daniel: I had a discussion with a female friend before and she totally agreed that boys should take care of themselves like a bit more because I mean, yeah, the whole macho thing I think it's appealing but at the same time I don't think, I don't think it's fair that like boys expect girls to take care of themselves and to be pretty, to look pretty, I don't know makeup, the hair, the nails, but boys sometimes, I mean I don't think girls want to go out with a monkey, you know. It's like, you have to take care of themselves, of yourself, it's not fair that girls have to put all the effort and boys, you know, just don't do anything. So I agree with the thing that, I mean it's all right, we have to take care of ourselves and we have to try to look better but I'm not used to the whole makeup and stuff so personally I don't do it and I don't think I will be comfortable doing it. So I don't know.Vella: Absolutely, I agree.

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Have you ever wondered what it means to be a professional conversation designer? Listen as your host Douglas Ferguson and his guest Daniel Stillman, the founder of the Conversation Factory and a master facilitator, discuss what it means to be a conversation designer and much more in this episode of the Control Room Podcast. Daniel shares how he got started as a conversation designer and why he believes that everything is an active conversation. He speaks about what he would change about meetings and why having a narrative with an opening, exploration, and closing is essential in a productive conversation. Listen as Douglas and Daniel discuss impromptu networking, the best questions to ask, and the definition of appreciative inquiry. They also talk about meeting mantras and why they are so important. Daniel shares his take on why using sticky notes is so effective in the ideation process and how to translate the practice to the virtual landscape. Daniel also explains how to host a virtual rock, paper, scissors tournament; it's both crazy and fun. Order a copy of Daniel’s book Good Talk, How to Design Conversations that Matter', available now. Show Highlights [00:50] Welcome. [01:02] Daniel's journey as a conversation designer. [04:01] Teaching design thinking to non-designers. [04:48] Everything is a conversation. [07:43] Providing an interface for an important idea for a product. [08:34] One thing Daniel would change when it comes to having meetings. [11:06] A narrative is crucial in conversations–opening, exploring, and closing. [13:19] Closing out daily meetings with precision. [16:14] The power of impromptu networking to make meetings better. [19:23] Impromptu networking is a great way to model the participation that you expect. [20:34] Daniel's favorite questions to ask. [22:15] Appreciative inquiry, defined. [24:23] The evolution and significance of Daniel's mantra. [26:27] Sticky note ideation heightens focus on specific concepts. [29:03] Reading the room virtually. [31:16] Virtual rock, paper, scissors tournament. [34:47] Ways to signal during virtual group gatherings. [35:48] Distributive facilitation and the future of work. [39:23] Thank you. [41:02] Waiting forever is not a good business plan for your company or your wedding. [43:24] Do large virtual meetings need comedians to keep people interested? [44:57] Daniel's book. [47:23] It has been a pleasure. [47:36] Subscribe. Links | Resources Daniel Stillman Good Talk: How to Design Conversations That Matter LinkedIn | Twitter | YouTube About the Guest Daniel Stillman designs conversations for a living and insists that you actually do that too. As an independent design facilitator, he works with clients and organizations of all shapes and sizes (From Google to Visa, to name a few) to help them frame and sustain productive and collaborative conversations, deepen their facilitation skills, and coach them through the innovation process. His first book, The 30 Second Elephant and the Paper Airplane Experiment is about origami and teams and yes, it’s as strange as it sounds. He hosts The Conversation Factory podcast where he interviews leaders, changemakers, and innovators on how they design the conversations in their work and lives.   Full Transcript Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting. Douglas: Today on Control the Room Podcast, I have Daniel Stillman. Daniel Stillman is a conversation designer, and insists that you're one, too. He is the founder of the Conversation Factory and a master facilitator. Welcome to the podcast, Daniel. Daniel: Douglas, it’s a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me on. Douglas: Of course. So, Daniel, I’d love to just have the listeners just hear a little bit about how you got started. Daniel: So, this is funny because I was thinking about this during our pre-conversation. You and I have known each other for a while, but there's still stuff we don't know about each other. This came up when we were having a conversation last week, where you're like, “I don't know the story behind that thing. You just assume I know that because I've known you for a couple of years,” stuff I've just never talked about. And so you've heard little snippets. So it's just kind of funny because we're friends, and now I'm telling you my story. I don’t know. Just pulling out for a second on the meta-ness of it all. Douglas: Yeah. And as you know, conversations can get weird. Daniel: Yeah, they sure can. So, wait. What was the question again? How did I—what's my origin story? Douglas: That’s right. Daniel: Was there any radioactive spiders involved in how I got my superpowers? I feel like I found my way into conversation design through design. I remember actually seeing an ad in the New York Times back when people found jobs in the New York Times’ job-wanted section. Like, that was a thing. And I remember seeing this job for an exhibit designer, and I was like, this is so cool, because I had a background in science. I had studied physics in undergrad. And this idea of designing science exhibits—I loved going to museums when I was a kid. I grew up in the Upper West Side of Manhattan. I went to the Museum of Natural History as a kid often. That's where they would just send us on a rainy day. Like, just go there. And this idea of being able to walk into a space and automatically learn just by being immersed in a space, just like, I don’t know. It kind of tickled me. And I wound up going to design school because they had a studio in science-exhibit design. And so I was super-duper excited to learn how to become a designer and how to design spaces for education. But while I was in design school, what I really learned was human-centered design. This idea that, wow, you can just go out into the world and talk to some people and learn about their problems, and then, make some stuff for them that they like, and then find out if they like it, and then, try it out again, make some test iterations. This was, like, 2005, 2006. The idea of human-centered design and design thinking we're really, I mean, nascent in design at the time. Pratt, where I went to school, was still very much form. We studied negative space and curves for entire semester-long classes. And so this idea of designing for people and designing for needs is what really inspired me. But when I got out of school and I started working in a design studio, what I realized was that I actually had to start designing—I didn't know at the time—but I was designing conversations: stakeholder-engagement workshops to try to pull intelligence out of various stakeholders to understand user needs. And so workshop design became a real passion for me. And so that's kind of how I got to where I am today was I realized that design thinking and teaching design thinking to non-designers was something that was really important. I had this fantasy. I was like, if we all knew the rules to the same game, we could play the game. Let's make something that matters together, right? And that to me are like—those are the rules of design thinking. Hey, let's empathize and understand and define and deliver. That's what I do now is I try to inspire people to be intentional about how they create. Douglas: That’s amazing. So, thinking back to when you were just post school and you were starting to have some of those early realizations that everything was a conversation, can you take us to that moment? And what was it that really clicked for you? How did that make you feel, or what was surfacing? Was there something that wasn't quite serving you at the time and you realized there needed to be more, or was it just an observation? Daniel: Actually, I can—I really remember the moment. I went to an event that my friend Jooyoung Oh was running. She was a design researcher at the time, and for many years she worked at Ziba. And at the time—I can’t remember what she was doing—but she did this workshop where she had us do collages of words and pictures that she had printed out on stickers. And we did this visual collage of “my ideal experience for blank is…,” and “my ideal experience for blank is not…” So she gave us these sheets of stickers with words and pictures on them. The pictures were evocative, emotional, suggestive. And we made these collages, and they became a focal point for a dialog. And I remember doing this and I was like, “Oh, my god, this is amazing.” And it seemed so simple. But we had this big meeting coming up with some stakeholders in the consultancy I was working on, and we were doing this big kickoff for this bug-repellent product, which I probably shouldn't talk about. And I said to my boss, he’s like, “We really need to understand all these different stakeholders and what they really think this thing should be.” And I was like, “Oh, my god, I've got a thing for that.” The language I would use now is “I have a design for that conversation.” I explained it to him a little bit, and he squinted his eyes, and he's like, “Okay.” And I'm like, “Dude, you got to trust me on this. I can land this plane. It’s going to get us good information.” And I remember going into that meeting, and we did this exercise. I remember—I literally remember printing out these sheets of these words and these stickers and these images. And one member of the stakeholder team was an engineer, and the other was a marketer. And there was a word that was placed on the is versus the isn't, in either case. The engineer did not want the experience of this chemical bug-repellent product to be magical, and the marketer thought that the experience should be magical. And so what we had was this conversation about magical and what it meant for something to be magical, and why the engineer didn't want it to be magical and why the marketer did want it to be magical. Magical to the marketer meant effortless, easy, efficacious. Boom, done—bugs are gone. And to the engineer, he's like, “If it's magical, then that means that people don't trust it. If it's magical, people don't understand why it works. If it's magical, people can't understand that it's safe and scientific.” And so just from that collaging effort, which some people would deride as goofy, mood boarding, or whatever, it provided us with an opportunity to dive into this really important conversation, which is, What do we want this thing to be, and what do we want our customers to think about it? And what we were doing was providing an interface for the conversation. If we just said, ”Hey, what do you guys want this to be?” it would have seemed like, I don’t know, one, we didn't know our stuff. But by giving them an activity to do, it pulled ideas out of their heads and put them on the wall and allowed us to unpack a really, really important idea for the project. What is magical? Douglas: That's amazing. I think that is a challenge that I see in so many meetings, where two people are using two different words to mean two different things, or they're using the same word to mean different things. And that's a real problem. And often it is not surfaced, and I think that's where a lot of these visual-thinking tools can really surface some of those things and then gives us an opportunity to discuss it. Can shape the narrative. And when I asked you about one thing that you could change about meetings, you talked about this need to have a narrative for our meetings. And just “we're having a meeting” is a flat story, and you're looking for something more dynamic. So tell us a little more about that. Daniel: Well, you were in the room when our friend Allan Chochinov, at the first masterclass, Facilitation Masterclass, you came to in New York, when Allan talked about, what was it, like, a text expander that one of his students made? Allan was an old professor of mine at Pratt. Now he runs the Products of Design program at SVA. And one of his students wrote a text expander so that whenever you write meeting, it erases it. You literally can't write the word meeting, because a meeting is a meaningless word. A meeting can mean so many different things that it means nothing. What are we doing at that meeting? Are we meeting to sing a song together? Are we going caroling. Let's meet to go caroling. Oh, let's meet to align on a decision. Let's meet to figure out what our options are. Let's meet to plan the holiday party. It doesn't mean anything. And so Allan's idea was if you don't have a prototype, you shouldn't have a meeting. If you don't have an object or an interface or a list, a thing to start the conversation off with, you shouldn't have that meeting. And so I think the story of “let's have a meeting” is just, it's a flat story, but it's also just a super-incomplete story. “Let's meet in order to blank, and let's talk about these three things, and I think that we should have process x, y,  and z  to discuss about them. Here's who can make the final decision. I'm just going to be gathering your inputs.” “Oh, okay, cool. I don't want to come to that meeting if I can't make the final decision.” Oh, interesting. Now we have tension and a cliffhanger for how this story is going to end. If you told people the real story of your meeting, most people might not even come to those meetings, which people don't like. “Well, what if I made my meetings optional? People might not come.” And I'm like, “Yeah, well, make your meetings better, make them matter, talk about something that people really care about.” Douglas: That’s amazing. Also, I think the super power of that is when you realize that there's actually multiple narratives, multiple tracks, and that you might need to divide your audience. If someone's focused more strategically and someone else more tactical, being able to split those things rather than jamming everyone together into the same conversation and creating so much discord. Daniel: Yeah. Everybody’s sitting around a table and talking over each other. And yeah, so this is why narrative is important in conversations, at least this idea of opening, exploring, and closing. Years after people come to my Facilitation workshops, the one thing people remember, they forget most things, but the one thing they remember is this idea of opening, exploring, and closing, and having time to both open or diverge and close and converge and making some time in the middle for something interesting to emerge. And I absorbed that idea from Dave Gray's coauthored book, Gamestorming, just the importance of having those three modes of thinking. And I think having that baked into the process and communicating that to people, it just means that we expect that something interesting and surprising will happen. Otherwise, just make a video. Just make a video of what you've decided and just tell everybody. Douglas: It’s fascinating because Dave Gray talks about the explorer section also being referred to as the groan zone because no one typically enjoys it. But the funny thing is most people, their meetings just consist of explorer. Let's just start exploring when we walk in the door, and then we explore until we have to walk out of the door. And that's really unfortunate if you don't give people that time, that boot-up time. I just recently read a book on facilitation that was talking about—they were talking about it as clearing, which I thought was a really fascinating way to think about an opener, is allowing people to clear themselves and get ready for the meeting to start. Daniel: Well, you’re basically closing before you can open. As we all know, if you don't close, you can't open the next—like, if you don't—and I'm sure you've seen this in sprints, right? If people don't close on day one, mapping the problem, it's really hard to open on day two, finding a target. And if you don't close on a target, it makes drawing a set of solutions really, really super hard. And if you refuse to close on a smaller number of prototypes, it means that your last day of the sprint’s going to be a bear because you test everything. Douglas: Yeah. And we've often talked about how critical closing is in the kind of more macro sense as well, because if you aren’t closing out your everyday meetings with precision, then it's really difficult to align on anything. The real, I think pathological cases, when you walk out thinking you're aligned, but you're not, and so everyone else is telling a different narrative. And you were all in the same meeting, so it should sound like it. Daniel: The cost is even higher than that, Douglas, because internally—I think one of the reasons why people pay an external facilitator, one reason why people hire me and hire you, is to create urgency. “Douglas is here. We’ve paid him. It’s expensive. Everyone stop what you’re doing. We have to focus now.” When people have an internal meeting, their urgency isn’t there. There’s no burning platform, like Kotter talks about. There’s no urgency. And so if you don’t close, you push off decisions. And work is a gas. A gas at standard pressure and temperature expands to fill the space available to it. So time creates pressure, and a sprint or a workshop reduces the volume of space we have to it. And if we don't cap things off or tie them off and say that this is the decision we're going to have, and now we're going to move on to the next phase, it's very idealistic to say these things. It is really hard to do, right? It's really hard to say, okay, well, let's just try this thing, or let's move on to the next thing, even though we don't feel we're ready. I hate doing it. I still tell my clients to do it because it's hard. I know it's important to do, and I struggle with it myself. But if we don't do that, what happens is we wind up working nights and weekends. That's the cost—not seeing our families. If we can close in the time that we have proposed, then we can have the rest of our lives back. Douglas: Yeah, well, it's interesting. You talked about it being hard, but the answer really is to disagree and commit. If we can come together and not rely on unanimity, this desire to have everyone agree, then we can get to a point where there is a decision, we're all going to support it, and we're going to see what comes out. And I think the thing that I try to coach people on is there’re one-way doors and two-way doors. So if it's a reversible decision, then why are we working weekends to get this? Daniel: Right. Having kids is not the same thing as, where should we go for vacation? Where you go to vacation is still a reversible because you've gone and you've spent that money; you've gone on that vacation. But you can always just leave early. You know, you can cancel a vacation halfway through. You're like, “I hate it here. Let's go someplace else.” But it is very hard to cancel, not to get into any politics, but once you've got the kid, it's really hard to cancel it. Douglas: That's right. Daniel: Still not impossible. All my friends who are adopted, it's a thing. But it creates repercussions. Douglas: Let’s shift gear a little bit here and talk about impromptu networking. It is a really powerful way to make meetings better. And why is that? Daniel: Oh, right, right, right. This was my—actually, it’s funny. I was only a light dabbler in liberating structures before I worked with you. I remember looking at the website, and I know many people have had this experience of, this is a crazy place on the Internet. You get to the website, and you’re like, wow, there’s a lot of interesting stuff here, but this looks like the ravings of a madman. And having met Keith, I still actually have that same opinion. It is definitely the ravings of a madman. And I had done things like that before. I had started most of my workshops in my early days with “Grab someone and tell them a story, and then, listen to their story,” because creating energy in a workshop or a meeting is a hard job, and it shouldn't be the job, the sole job, the sole responsibility of the facilitator. As I like to say, it's everybody's problem we're here to solve. It's just not my problem, presumably. If people are here, they're buying into the problem. So starting with a conversation or a story or a reflection about an important component of it is really, really great. Plus, conversations are complex, and so the fewer number of people in the conversation, the less complex it can feel. And so if you've got a group of five or ten or fifteen, pairing up with somebody just immediately simplifies the conversation and makes it more intimate. I was talking with somebody today about this. He used to be a teacher. And this “think, pair, share,” which I thought I invented because it rhymes, and I thought I was clever, this is baked into Harvard University’s education best practices initiative. And every teacher already knows this. Think to grab a partner and talk to them about blank. It's just such an easy reflex. But I see so many facilitators who try to wrangle a group as a large mass of people, and I just don't think it works. You have to be—it takes a lot of strength. This is a total side note, but I love telling this story. Have you seen The Princess Bride movie? Douglas: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Yeah. There's the scene where Fezzik and the Man in Black are fighting as Vizzini is escaping with Buttercup. And they've just climbed up the wall, the Cliffs of Insanity, and they're about to face off. And spoiler alert—Fezzik loses. And he realizes halfway through the fight why he's having such a hard time. He's like, “I haven't done one-to-one combat in so long. I'm used to fighting groups of people. You have to use different techniques.” And I think of impromptu networking as a really, really great group-fighting technique, because it doesn't matter if you've got two people or ten people or a hundred people, you say, “Okay, everybody grab a partner and have a quick conversation about blank.” And then the room is filled with energy that you did not have to create. People are connecting to other people, they're learning from each other, and then it's up to you to do the next thing, which is take that energy and funnel it, direct it, focus it towards the next activity, get people to do something with that inspiration and that information and that connection that they've gotten from other people at the moment. Douglas: Yeah. And we often talk about modeling behavior. And I think impromptu networking is a great way to model the participation that we expect. So we get them at ease with participating and gaining that human connection that they so need. And especially in the virtual world, it's really critical to start setting some of those expectations, because people aren't used to doing it when they're tuning in the virtual webinars and stuff. Daniel: Oh, my god, I know. I did that with a workshop, super-duper early in the meeting. And one of the reasons why I like to do it early is this idea of antifragile openings. If somebody shows up five or ten or fifteen minutes late, they can still float in, weave in to the second or third pairing. And this woman was like, “I knew you would do breakout rooms. I didn't think it would happen so soon.” I'm like, “Yeah, if you show up 20 minutes late to this workshop, you're going to miss something, but you're not going to miss everything. You're still going to be able to get some…” She was able to come into the third pairing in impromptu networking. Douglas: For sure. And impromptu networking only works if you have a good invitation, and your prompt has to be tight. This means that you have to have a good question. So Daniel, what are your favorite questions? Daniel: Oh, man. That's my favorite question. That’s definitely my favorite question. I actually asked that of somebody on a recent podcast episode that I was hosting, on my Conversation Factory podcast. I interviewed Cameron Yarbrough, who has a scaled coaching platform called Torch.io. And his favorite question to ask people is, what are your blind spots? And boy, oh boy, that's a really—I mean, technically an impossible question to answer yourself, but it's a really, really interesting one. He described it as a cone, like a Zen question that is unanswerable but interesting. And so good questions can be like that. I think the other easy, easy question is, tell me a story about blank. Just tell me a story when you last blank, or tell me a story about how you have blanked. Or just go straight to story because stories evoke emotions and empathy. So don't just say, “Tell me a story of when you were at your best.” It's a hard question to answer still, but it's a really interesting one, and it evokes interesting reactions for people. And that's why I think focusing on positivity over negativity is always hard. Douglas: Absolutely. That was the thing I was going to bring up next, actually, was the fact that I'm a huge fan of, if your questions can be appreciative or express gratitude, that can be really amazing. And if you can make people become introspective. So think about a time when you maybe received—what's the best compliment you've ever received? So lovely. Daniel: Yeah. And just to double stitch on that, by the way, not everybody knows what appreciative inquiry is. And it's, when you look at it, if you come from design thinking or the sprint world, you look at appreciative inquiry, and you're like, it can be weird, but you're like, wait, how is this different than design thinking? And the difference is is that you only focus on the positive. And there's this idea that you can, in fact, heal a system and a person by looking at only the positives. And in my book, I actually, I found a story. I couldn't find the truth of it. I couldn't find a direct quote, but people have talked about it, this idea that—I forget the name of the Dallas Cowboys coach—but at one point during a slump, he was like, we are only going to show you your best plays. You know, they tape the plays, and they go back, and they review things. They’re like, look, we are going to review and analyze your best plays only. And it kind of flips things on its head because a lot of designers and a lot of innovators think like, oh, we're problem solving. And so if I'm problem-solving, I have to look at what's broken, and then I have to fix it. But with appreciative inquiry, there's this radical idea that I can find what's working and ask how I can magnify it and expand it. Douglas: Yeah. there's an amazing book called Super Human, and it goes into a lot of super athletes that are doing just amazing things, like free scaling mountains, and the winged airmen—the Red Bull team that just jumps off of buildings and does insane things. Daniel: Base jumpers. Douglas: Exactly. And one of the things that they discovered—and this is a phenomenon in this world—which is there is something that humans have not been able to do for decades. And the first time one human does it, like 10, 15 other humans would do it a day later, because they've shown that it's possible. It just opens up the world of, well, now I can just go to do that thing that I know—I've seen them do it. Now I can do it. Daniel: Yeah. Wow. I love that. That's really, really awesome. Douglas: And so this is similar to your mantra, Daniel: if you don't write it down, it didn't happen. So we need to be able to see it to prove it, and then we can we can double stitch on it. And we have a mantra that's similar: always capture room intelligence. So why is this so important? Daniel: Well, I, first, have to honor my friend Miles Begin, who gave me that mantra years ago, and that was when I first started teaching design thinking to non-designers. That's the whole point is if it's not on a sticky note and it's not on the wall, we can't talk about it. And having that mantra’s really helpful, especially if you have over-talkers in the room, and it's also really helpful if you have “under-talkers” in the room. If somebody’s really, really overexplaining an idea, you can say, “Hey, can you fit that on one sticky note and get it up on the wall? That is truly, truly awesome. That'll be great.” But we used to tell a story about—have you ever watched Mad Men? Douglas: Of course. Daniel: Yeah. So there's an amazing Mad Men episode where—I forget the team. It's, like, Peggy and a couple of the other people stay up all night to bang out some ideas for something. They're drinking, and they're smoking. And they finally have this amazing insight, and they're like, “Wow, that is such a great idea!” And then they go to sleep because they're satisfied. Spoiler alert—they didn't write their idea down. And so the next day, when Don Draper comes in, and Don’s like, “Okay, what’d you jerks come up with?” And they're like, “Oh, my god, we've got this great idea,” and they're looking around their desks, and they're like,  Wait a minute. What was it?” And their brains are just this empty vacuum of space. And they're like, “Oh, my god, we didn't write it down.” And they're just crestfallen. And Don's like, “I understand. That happens sometimes.” It’s one of the few moments when Don decides to be really, really human. Like, he gets it. You didn't write down the idea, and it disappeared. And so I found an old PowerPoint of mine from, like, one of the first design-thinking workshops I ever taught. And there is a scene—we found a screenshot of Don Draper and some other people, just to teach people this idea of, if you don't write down your ideas, they will disappear into the air. And this is long before I knew that conversations had interfaces and that if you use a durable interface for your conversations, not surprisingly, you can have a more-sustained conversation about it. That’s why when you get it on the wall, we can talk about it. If it's not on the wall, I'm just interpreting what I heard, and it can disappear in the air. So one of the great things about design-thinking workshops is that we create this paper trail of insights and agreements when we go from phase to phase. And if you don't do that, we're having a much floofier conversation. So it's really, really important to get things down. And if we're talking about virtual, it's actually really problematic. I mean, I love MURAL, but MURAL sticky notes are not the same thing as real sticky notes, because on a real sticky note, there's a limit to how much information I can put on the sticky note. With MURAL, you can literally write the great American essay on one sticky note and just shrink it down to infinitely small size. So, you're not as limited. We always used to tell people, oh, use Sharpie on a sticky note. That's because a Sharpie and a sticky note create one idea. But it's way too easy in virtual visual capture to put too much information into one sticky note. Douglas: You know, Daniel, that's a big debate: how much limitations did the software put on us to mimic the real world? I think that's a fascinating conversation. Daniel: I would love to be able to switch on real-sticky-note mode. Douglas: Yeah, that’d be fantastic. And I find as a facilitator, where you talked about virtual being more difficult, and this is just one example. There's a long, long list of why we have to lean in more, and it's difficult to be a lazy facilitator, virtually, whether it's we're looking to see how long the sticky notes are or we're making sure that people are connected and having to do troubleshooting and provide technical support. One of the things we spoke about, this notion of helping teams get unstuck and making sure that they continue the momentum as they leave the workshop and they go start to build their vision. And you talked about that being the magic question, just having to look around and just check and see if everything's fixed. This is something that I've talked to Erick Skogsberg quite a bit about, this notion of, from learning the science, we have to consider assessment points. What is our learning objective and making sure we've built in points of assessment so we can understand if we've gotten there. And even if you're not training people, it's important that you build this into workshops because you're taking people on a journey and you want to make sure that they're hitting the milestones, right? What do we do virtually? You and I have talked about this quite a bit, but what do the listeners need to know about virtual kind of reading the room? Daniel: Well, you have to find other feedback loops. And I think that's where—like, when we've set up MURALS for multiple tables, when you put them on separate MURALS, which I know is something you've recommended in the past, especially if you're doing a larger meeting, putting them on separate MURALS reduces the load, but it makes it harder as a facilitator to monitor multiple tables. So it's nice to have three or—if you only have 15 or 20 or 30 people to just make areas for each of the breakout rooms to work, because then you can just see everything that's happening, because while MURAL does have those preview images, as we've argued over before, the preview images don't update often enough for you to get that feedback loop, but it can be really, really simple. I've seen you do this, where you ask everybody to rename themselves in Zoom. And that's pretty meta because you're asking them to give you some information about themselves, but you're also testing whether or not they're engaged and whether or not they are interested. And if you don't see people—if you see people not doing that, then, we don't have anyplace to go because it's like, oh, they don't know how to use the tool, Zoom, and they aren't interested enough to tell you something about themselves in this area. And so it's just finding simpler, smaller feedback loops to make sure that you're moving forward with people with you, if that makes sense. Douglas: Oh, absolutely. And we've been using two facilitators in most of our workshops, with someone dedicated to looking for those signals. So they're kind of keeping a lookout for those things. So, absolutely. And also, just to keep this a bit evergreen, I'm now on the beta for the new rendering engine, so do not have to make multiple MURALS for even larger gatherings now on MURAL, so that's pretty exciting. And after that launches, you won’t have to be in the beta program, have access to that. So I'm sure listeners in the future will be happy to have that. Daniel: I’m wondering why I’m not on that beta program. Douglas: I think you should talk to some friends, Daniel. So with that, I’m super-curious about Rock, Paper, Scissors online. How does this work? Daniel: Well, so here's the thing. Like I say, I, because I think you're referring to a LinkedIn post that I made, where I didn't even think it was possible. I just sort of assumed. And this goes to your sporting-events thing, right? where when somebody does it, then you're like, oh, that's how to do it. And it partially goes against my lazy facilitation principle. But during some of the facilitation masterclass cohorts that I run, we make spaces for people to try out new warmups and icebreakers that they've never done before. And this one woman, Janine Underhill, said, I'd like to try to do a Rock, Paper, Scissors tournament.” And I'm like, “Good luck, sister. I'm going to enjoy this.” And she did it. She did it. It can be done. I think what's interesting about it is that simultaneity in remote facilitation is impossible because of the speed-of-light limit. It’s basically an Einstein-Bose condensate kind of a problem. If you and I tried to snap at the same time, we can’t. Even if we said, “One, two, three, snap,” we wouldn’t snap at the same time, because you wouldn’t hear me snapping at the same time. There’s a delay because we’re in between this piece of software. The software institutes a delay, and sound travels more slowly than light. And so we’re never going to have simultaneity. In person, it is very hard to notice that lack of simultaneity, right? When I say, “Rock, paper, scissors, shoot,” it seems simultanous because we're within, like, two feet of each other. But when we are 100,000 miles from each other, and we are on Zoom, we notice it. And what happens is people start slowing down, because we go one, two, three, shoot, as we wait for the other person to catch up with us. And then somebody always throws before the other person, and so it's like—but we don't have a response action time to metabolize that information. And so it's actually a really interesting learning opportunity to talk about how challenging communication can be remotely. But it is totally possible to do it, and it is fun to do it, and it is ridiculous to do it. Everyone should try it. Douglas: That’s amazing. So structurally, when you do a Rock, Paper, Scissors battle, you're just having people start off in groups. Daniel: Yes. Douglas: And then the winners are laddering up to—it’s like a basketball tournament kind of… How do you do all these groups? Are you doing breakout groups, and then combine them together? Daniel: Yes, I will, in the interest of community, I will tell you all of my secrets. So Janine worked too hard at it, I think. She did all the initial pairings. We only had a group of 15, and she did all the initial pairings, and she did the secondary pairings as well, and she did the tertiary pairings. She called out all the pairings, kept track of it all. And that was to her credit. Douglas: She was recording the brackets. Daniel: She was the bracket-eur. My variation is to have people turn off their video if they lose. That's the easiest thing to do is just have people turn off their video if they lose, because then, at least, the bracketing is easier. Douglas: Yeah. Or someone could raise their hand if they're looking for… Daniel: Yes. Totally. They're signaling. And so here's the thing. We could try to do it a perfect way, or we could let the group solve it and see if we can get them to understand everything there is to understand about group communication, because signaling, oh, how do we signal stuff? Okay. How do we start—how do we keep signaling for the rest of our meetings? Okay, cool. And I've seen groups really develop some great habits around, okay, put your hand over your head if you haven't blanked. And so I don't think the bracketing thing—video makes it easier. Bracketing, the problem is, is that I think bracketing can't be done automatically. It's much harder to say, okay, I'm going to claim blank person as my hand-off person. So I haven't solved it. But I also haven't tried to do it with 100 hundred people. I've only done it with 20. And then it works fine. And it's fun. Douglas: Absolutely. Daniel: It's as fun and as ridiculous, if not more so, than doing it virtually. Douglas: Speaking of distributed facilitation in general, you've mentioned to me that it's weirder and squishier. So I guess some final comments for the listeners around challenges, just why is it weirder and squishier? And then, what are you hopeful for? What are you optimistic about? Daniel: I’ve written about this before. I can send you a link to the article on LinkedIn that I wrote. It's called “This Digital Place,” and we have a sense of place that comes for free by being four-dimensional beings. We exist in space and time, and we've had a long time, our entire lives, to get used to it. And we've had 40,000 years as modern humans to evolve for it. We've evolved in it. This is our—you know, [knocks on wood] this physical space is my native place. And so when we go into this digital place, it feels weird because it is literally not natural for us. But those Post-it notes behind you on the wall are not natural for us either. We designed those for ourselves as a tool, and I cannot imagine having an in-person meeting without those tools anymore, in the short decade that I've had those tools. I remember we didn't always have big Post-it sticky pads. We didn't always have whiteboards. We've grown really used to this environment. In the last 10, 20, 30 years, we've created this built environment around our meetings and our engagements, and we require them now. But I assure you, they are not natural. They feel natural to us because we’ve become acculturated to it and to them. And we do not have a culture for this distributed place. We don't have rituals for this distributed place. We are learning them slowly but surely. The example I love to give is, whatever it was, like, maybe five years ago, that guy from the BBC whose kids tromped in in the middle of his presentation—a little girl in yellow, running in like she owned the place. It was hilarious. And the guy was super embarrassed. The mother of the kids was extra-special embarrassed. And I was listening to NPR yesterday, where this woman was welcoming this man on to share a report about something. And he's like, I'm really glad to be here. Blah, blah, blah. And then his dog barks in the background. And the interviewer was like, “And it sounds like your dog’s excited to be with us today as well, too. What’s his name?” And he’s like, “It’s Buster.” And she’s like, well, hello to Buster. So, blah, blah, blah, let’s talk about blah, blah, blah. And it was seamless. It was smooth. She was like, whatever. We're just here, and there's a dog. Nobody cares anymore. That's something to be optimistic about, that we can adapt to this place, that we can learn new tools, that we can learn new rituals and new patterns. The fact of the matter is this is not natural, but there's very, very little that's natural about our lives. And we make our lives. We design the spaces and places where we have the conversations that we want to have. And so I'm pretty optimistic about the fact that our old patterns don't work as well here and that we have to develop new patterns, and that it is possible that maybe we will learn to retain some of those patterns when we get back to meeting in person in 19 months, my current estimate. Douglas: Well, Daniel, I look forward to continuing this journey with you. I agree, there's lots to learn and there's lots to explore. And we won't know for quite some time where these new norms and these new customs emerge, but I'm already seeing some things happen, and I think you and I are doing our best to be on the forefront of that. And so I just want to say thanks for being there with me, and it's been fun learning with you. Daniel: Likewise, man. I mean, a lot of facilitators say, “I can't feel the room, and it's not as good.” And honestly, I was one of those facilitators. Jim Kalbach from MURAL will literally quote back to you, like, the umpteen times over the last three years that I said to him, like, “I'm good, dude. I'm a great in-person facilitator. I'd much rather not compete on a global scale with anybody who has access to MURAL for facilitation gigs.” And we're in a situation where that's no longer possible in person is a fundamental assumption of what I used to do. That is impossible anymore. And I think if we can't adapt, if I can't adapt, if the rest of us can't adapt, we are royally screwed. We have to learn how to do this. And that's one of the reasons why we did the large virtual meetings things together. I thought it was important to push my own limits and say, is it possible to do the kind of big, crazy workshops that we did in person? If they had value—and we thought they did, and I think they still do—then, can we do them here, rather than, I don’t know, wait 18 months before having a bunch of people come together to make an important decision? I mean, honestly, Janet and I are having a long, ongoing discussion about this. We had to cancel our wedding in June. And what to do about getting married, and do we do a Zoom wedding? Will that be fun? Will that be interesting? Will it feel like a real wedding? Or should we wait an indefinite amount of time to bring everyone together to celebrate the fact that we have something good going here? I don't think that waiting forever is a really good business plan for anything, not for a marriage and certainly not for third-quarter top-to-top strategic meeting. I see you're nodding. You’re like, yeah, they should not be putting off those meetings. And I think people are putting them off, or they're doing them really, really poorly. Douglas: Yeah. I think there are two outcomes we've seen the more we explore this with companies. And some companies have the mindset, they have it figured out because they know how to run a Zoom meeting, or they know how to do webinars. Daniel: Right. One to Many—done. Douglas: Yeah. Like, I'm good. So they're just in the camp of, don't realize all the potential they're missing. And then you've got another camp that says we’ll just wait until we can do it in person because they've got caught flat-footed and they know that there's so much missing, but they don't know what to do. And so that's definitely the inspiration for putting together more virtual offerings. And the large virtual-meetings workshop is, I think, really hits the nail on the head as far as a real challenge around, what do we do with large groups? That sounds troubling. But the fascinating thing to me, Daniel, is that there's so much more that people learn. These aha moments can apply to much smaller meetings, but it's the large groups that people are the most confused by, and so that's where we approach the teaching opportunity. Daniel: Yeah. And large can just mean 15 or 20. It’s not hard to break the two-pizza rule, right? It is really easy to break the two-virtual-pizza rule quickly, and most of us don't have Fezzik-level skills when it comes to wrestling with large groups. And we need them. Everybody needs them, I think, especially if you work in a large corporation. But also, I went to a birthday party on Friday for someone I went to junior high school with. And this guy’s sister, who I was best friends with in junior high, she does stand-up comedy. And we did a call on Wednesday for the party, and she’s like, “What should I'd be looking out for, Daniel?” And I was like, “Well, look, it's a lot of people. You need to have an M.C.” And she's like, “Oh, I can do that,” because she's M.C.’d open comedy nights. And it’s like, “You need to have somebody to keep the energy moving and to orchestrate things and to keep the conversation moving.” It's not trivial. I think maybe this is where comics will find work in this new economy. How the Emmys and the Oscars need Billy Crystal and Kevin Hart, maybe these large virtual meetings just need comics, which is an insight you had for the first Control the Room,right? Just bring in some comedy to keep it going. Douglas: It might work a little better in the virtual setting, maybe. We’ll see. Daniel: Yeah. Are they available for me and my team? Douglas: Yeah. Bring them in, for sure. Yeah. There’s also some companies that have sprung up that allow you to rent— Daniel: Llamas? Yes, I know. Douglas: Llamas and perezosos and all sorts of stuff. Daniel: I don’t even know what those are, but… Douglas: Oh, it’s a sloth. Daniel: Oh, okay. Douglas: Everyone's got to have a sloth at their workshop. Daniel: Yeah, but see, that’s just like shiny distraction. Douglas: I agree. And Daniel, you know, I think this is the exact reason why so many people dislike icebreakers and eye openers and energizers, because they just throw them in, with no reason whatsoever, and without a debrief—in fact, I've started to say, if you can't ask, “Why did we just do that,” and have that erupt into a pithy conversation, ask yourself, “Why did we just do that?” Daniel: Whoa, yeah. I agree with you. Obviously, I agree with you. Douglas: So, Daniel, what do we need to leave listeners with? What should they know? And how could they find you, contact info, all that good stuff? Daniel: Well, I'm on the Internet, easy to find, fairly SEO’d. If you Google “Daniel Stillman,” you might find me. If you Google “The Conversation Factory,” you'll definitely find me. I have a podcast. I have a book coming out, by the way, Douglas. It will be coming out shortly, God willing. It's called Good Talk: How to Design Conversations that Matter. They're advertising it as a step-by-step handbook. It's not a step-by-step guide, because I don't think there's a single recipe that could possibly account for all situations. But it is a map to the territory and can help people learn how to form and shape and guide all the conversations in their lives better, from big-group conversations to the conversations that they have with themselves every day. We have a shocking number of conversations with ourselves, and those need to be designed just as much as quarterly action-plan gatherings and off-sites. And so if you go https://theconversationfactory.com/goodtalk, you can find it. You can download some chapters. It’s a thing. You don’t have to pay me anything. You don’t have to buy the book. The first two chapters, there’s a lot there—although somebody has told me that I ended the first two chapters at the right spot, that made them want to read the third chapter. And to that, I have to thank Kellie McGann, who helped me with the editing of the book. Douglas: It is a fantastic book. I've read it several times— Daniel: What?! Crazy. Douglas: —and I think it's really critical for people that are wanting to elevate their meetings and just their interactions at work and at home. It is a fantastic way to step back and look at your dialog in an abstract way so that you can put terms to it. So just like physics is the science of being able to take the phenomenon in the world, how the air moves past you and how your car functions, and you can put equations to it so you can understand it. You can talk about it in an abstract way so that you can reason about it. Daniel has done that for conversations. And if you think about how many conversations we have and all the moments throughout life where conversations are important, you can imagine how relevant this book becomes. And I can't highly recommend it enough. Daniel: It's really, really—it's wonderful to hear you say that. I appreciate you saying it. Writing a book, as you know, is a terrible, terrible thing. I’d never recommend it to anybody. The fact that it's out there and everyone can read it is terrifying to me. You can see what goes on in my head now, and the fact that I had a love of physics, and still do, and a love of design, it's not surprising, hearing you talk about it, I'm like, “All right. Of course. That's why I wrote the book the way that I did.” Douglas: Excellent. Well, Daniel, it's been a pleasure having you here today, and I can't wait to chat with you again. Daniel: Thanks, Douglas. It's always a pleasure. Thanks, man. Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together, voltagecontrol.com.

SHOW: 76SHOW OVERVIEW: Chris talks with Daniel Oh (@danieloh30, Principal Technical Product Marketing Manager, Red Hat) about new innovation in deploying Java applications on Kubernetes, with Quarkus. SHOW NOTES:OpenShift Homepage - http://openshift.comTry OpenShift 4 - http://try.openshift.comLearn OpenShift - http://learn.openshift.comQuarkus HomepageUnderstanding Java Quarkus (videos)SHOW TOPICS:Topic 1 - Quarkus: What is it, how does it save developers so much time, and how do folks get startedTopic 2 - Java developers are in demand across the planet and the Java language is evolving at the speed of cloud-native. How do you stay sharp on the skills you need and stay aware of the new things in the ecosystem?Topic 3 - Does this change the reality of Java development on containers? Will Quarkus help developers feel more comfortable using Java as serverless apps on immutable infrastructure (i.e. Kubernetes/OpenShift)? How does Quarkus change the reality for developers?Topic 4 - Does Quarkus help Spring Boot apps and Spring Developers with Kubernetes/OpenShift?Topic 5 - How does Quarkus unify imperative and reactive applications? FEEDBACK?Email: PodCTL at gmail dot comTwitter: @PodCTLWeb: http://podcast.podctl.com

Hearts That Praise Luke 1:46-56 Exegetical Main Point: At Elizabeth’s blessing, Mary’s soul turns from wonder to praise. God’s personal care for Mary and for His people causes joyful praise to erupt from her heart. Main Point of the Sermon: When we see God and self rightly, we will praise greatly. Me: Have you ever wondered why Christians sing so much? Why do we make singing such a large part of our gatherings? While I always enjoyed the singing that I grew up around in church it took a while before it really clicked for me. I would watch people who had no sense of pitch sing, if you can call it that, at the top of their lungs to God. I didn’t think it was beautiful. I thought it was comical. My brothers and I would sometimes sit behind those individuals purposefully just to get a good laugh during service. Sometimes my mom would get caught up in the fun too, and I’d see my dad nudging my mom to stop, if he wasn’t up on stage leading. I was telling some of the guys this morning about the churches that I grew up in – sometimes I’d even see people take off running down the aisles because they were so overcome by joy in the Lord. I’ve been a lot of different denominations worship services. I’ve seen a lot. I’ve seen people laugh, cry, lay on their faces, shout, dance, wave flags, pray and sing in spontaneous tongues, you name it. While I liked it, I didn’t always get it. But it clicked for me as a teenager. At the revelation of my sin and God’s grace that swallowed it all up, I couldn’t help but sing. My heart became like a geyser ready to explode out of my lips. In fact, at times it felt like my body would lift off of the ground because of joy my soul felt. Minus the flag waving – I’ve experienced all of these forms of worship, whether private or in public worship. When you see God and self rightly, you cannot help but praise. We: Whether you can relate with singing or dancing, every human can relate to this in life generally. When you see something spectacular, like the grand canyon, or an amazing sunset, or a gorgeous bride coming down the aisle, what do you do? You talk about! You tell others. Humans cannot help but overflow with praise for the things that we love. We cannot help but respond when we see beauty. The Bible tells us that similar responses come from humans when we see something amazing not with our eyes, but with our spirit. Remember Paul’s prayer for the Ephesians, where he prayed “that the eyes of [their] hearts would be enlightened…?” When we come to see with our spiritual eyes how great God is and how much he has given to us, our souls cannot help but erupt in praise to God. When we see God and self rightly, we will praise greatly. So, let me ask you today, does the Gospel cause your heart to overflow in praise? Is your praise weak and small? Do you find more joy at a Vikings game or over that video game, or… fill in the blank? If this is true, it’s quite possible that your view of God is small. What he’s done and will do doesn’t impress you. If that’s you today how do we move from a place of stagnation to joyful and expressive praise? Today’s text gives us some powerful clues on how. Text: Context: In the previous weeks, we’ve unpacked Luke’s telling of the infancy narrative. First, John’s birth was prophesied. Then Mary received news from Gabriel that she would have a child who would be king. And last week we read that Mary went to visit Elizabeth. When she got there she found Elizabeth pregnant just as the angel had said. And at Mary’s greeting, Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, proclaimed blessing over her and her child, even calling her newly conceived child “my Lord”. For her own baby had leaped with joy at the approach of Mary and her child. As Elizabeth spoke these words over Mary, Mary’s wonder, perhaps fear, over all that had been told to her concerning her son turned suddenly into a song of praise erupting from her soul! Mary’s sight of God’s grace caused praise 46-47 Luke records her song. Let’s look together: 46 And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, Mary’s praise sounds like the Psalms. Psalm 69:30 reads, “I will praise the name of God with a song; I will magnify him with thanksgiving.” This word “magnifies” in the original language means “to make great”. That is, Mary is praising God’s greatness. She is rejoicing in her Savior. I love the way John Piper talks about magnifying God. He writes, “There are two kinds of magnifying: microscope magnifying and telescope magnifying. The one makes a small thing look bigger than it is. The other makes a big thing begin to look as big as it really is. When David [or Mary] says, “I will magnify God with thanksgiving,” he does not mean, “I will make a small God look bigger than he is.” He means, “I will make a big God begin to look as big as he really is.” We are not called to be microscopes. We are called to be telescopes…”[1] I think Mary’s song magnifies God like a telescope. Seeing God’s enormous grace given to her, a lowly teenage girl causes her to talk about God’s true greatness. She knows she is a sinner in need of a Savior, but sees an incredible God who brings her and all the world salvation through her newly conceived child, Jesus. When Mary sees God and self rightly, she cannot help praise greatly. Hannah’s Song: Mary’s is most likely drawing from Hannah’s song in 1 Samuel 2, another woman who praised God’s greatness when she saw him intervene in her life. Listen to the opening lines of Hannah’s song: “My heart exults in the Lord; my horn is exalted in the Lord. My mouth derides my enemies, because I rejoice in your salvation. “There is none holy like the Lord: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God. Out of teenage Mary’s heart flowed praises from the Scriptures. Is that how you praise God, teens? Is that how you praise God, church? Remembering God’s faithfulness to others in the stories of old is perhaps the best way to deepen our faith in God’s goodness to us. This is why it’s so important that we memorize and internalize the Bible. Praise like Mary’s, like Hannah’s, comes from spiritual sight, birthed out of meditation on God’s present, past, even future faithfulness. This is why Mary says “my soul” praises, “my spirit” rejoices. Having encountered God, her whole being, spirit and body, is erupting with praise to God. Transition: Mary is beginning to understand all that God had done and would do for her. And when she came to understand, she didn’t stay silent. She didn’t keep meditating. She spoke! She sang! She couldn’t help but praise God. And hear me on this: she praised God for specific things. Do you praise God for specific things that he has done? 1) Mary praised God for his personal care 2) and for God’s care for her people, Israel. Let’s see it. Verse 48 Praises for God’s Personal Care 48-49 48 for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed; 49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me, When you see the word “for” at the beginning of a sentence in Scripture, it is usually grounding a statement that has come before it. It answers the question “why is your soul praising God” with the reason, with the “because”. She praises becauseGod has seen her and visited her with abundant grace! Because even the “mighty” God knows the lowly. He knew the poor virgin teenager and gave her such a great gift: to bear and mother the Son of God. As a result of this child all generations would call her blessed, as indeed we do today! Mary’s heart overflows in praise because she sees that such a mighty God, the creator, the ruler of the universe chose her. This understanding of God should make us praise just like it did Mary. Do you know how mighty God is. Yet, he knows you. He chose you for his family, for his mission. If this doesn’t make you praise than you may not know just how much grace has been shown to you. Mary adds at the end of verse 49, “and holy is his name.” Like Hannah, Mary grounds God’s kindness toward her in his character. Why has God been so good to Mary? Because his name is holy. God’s “name” represents his being, his character. Holiness is one of many aspects of God’s character. God’s holiness usually makes us think of his moral perfection, but holiness here should not be limited to that. It is so much more! God’s holiness doesn’t leave him separate from the world on his throne looking down saying, “you pitiful sinners”. His holiness moves him to act on behalf of the lowly and against the unrighteous according to his covenant promises.[2] Because God is holy he cannot lie. He cannot go against his promises to save his people and to judge the ungodly. God’s holiness is the reason hell exists. His holiness is the reason you and I can be assured of our salvation if we are trusting Jesus alone for it. Why does God care for me and for you? Because his name is holy. Perhaps you are struggling today to believe that God actually does care for you. God obviously did something great for Mary, but what has he done for me, Daniel? Oh friend, if you are a follower of Christ then you are God’s beloved child, if you don’t see his care for you even in your poverty, in your loneliness, in your pain, can’t you see what he has done? In coming to Mary in this way, as a baby, God was getting into your skin, into your pain, into your poverty, into your loneliness. In coming to Mary, a lowly peasant girl, God is proving his steadfast love to all of us – especially the meek and broken. I pray now that God will give you spiritual sight to see and believe this. In coming to Mary, he has come to you. Who is like our God? This should cause us to praise greatly! Amen? Transition: Mary praises God for his personal care for her. Now let’s look at her praises for God’s care for his people. Let’s look at verse 50. Praise for God’s Care for His People 50-55 50 And his mercy is for those who fear him from generation to generation. Steadfast Love: Mary’s praise turns from first person pronouns to third person. His mercy is for “those” who fear God. This passage parallels Psalm 103:17 closely, which says, “The steadfast love of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear him, and his righteousness to children’s children… This word “mercy” in verse 50 could be translated steadfast love, coming from the Hebrew word hesed, which denotes the covenant faithfulness of God. God’s steadfast love and mercy never ceasesfor the one who is in relationship with God. Those who bow in reverence to God like Mary, those who know the grace that has been poured out on them, can be sure that God will never fail them, never leave them. It’s hard to compare this faithfulness to anything on earth, but the best I can do is to compare it to a mother, who’s compassion for their child, keeps them coming at their call even when they are disobeying, when their fears are irrational, when they are overreacting, when there is nothing actually wrong. Oh Church, do you see the steadfastness of God’s love for you and for his people? This is a reason that our souls should praise him. Who is like our God? Let’s continue in verse 51 with Mary’s praises for God’s corporate care for Israel. 51 He has shown strength with his arm; he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts; Second Exodus: Mary, here, speaks of what God has done in having the Messiah be born by a lowly teenage girl. And whether she knows it or not, she is prophesying of what Jesus would bring about in his rule. This language about God’s strong biceps resembles Old Testament descriptions of God’s saving power displayed at the Exodus. Listen to how God described the coming deliverance of Israel to Moses in Exodus:“Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for with a strong hand he will send them out, and with a strong hand he will drive them out of his land.” What’s amazing about this statement by Mary is that she is attributing the same powerful personal rescue that God brought about in the Exodus to the coming birth of the Savior, Jesus! God would bring about judgment on Israel’s enemies. He would scatter “the proud in the thoughts of their hearts.” What she didn’t yet understand is how he would do this. Yes, Jesus would scatter Israel’s enemies like he did at the Exodus, but he would in fact start within the hearts of his own people. Jesus would lead a second exodus, setting people free from slavery to sin – setting us free from our own fleshly desires that keep us from God! God came near to Israel in Egypt and Pharaoh and all of his wise man and armies were no match for him. God comes near to humanity in the person of Jesus and the darkness of our sin is no match for the light of his presence. Make no mistake, while Jesus’s coming does mean mercy for the repentant, his presence will always shine light on pride in our hearts, on sin in our hearts. Today, Jesus’s message goes into all the earth and Scripture tells us that we will know who are enemies or friends of God based on their response to Jesus. Friends, God knows your thoughts. He knows whether you are rejecting him in thought or deed. God tests the heart of man. He knows what we are truly made of and he will judge accordingly (Jn 10:16). Verse 52 illustrates this point: 52 he has brought down the mighty from their thrones and exalted those of humble estate; 53 he has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent away empty. We have already seen this taking place in God’s description of John the Baptist and Jesus as great in contrast to King Herod “the great”. God decides who will be great. It would be easy to misinterpret this passage, and much of the Gospel of Luke for that matter, by thinking that God somehow hates the rich and loves the poor inevitably, like he is utterly opposed to someone taking a high position of leadership or ever growing in wealth. No, but what God hates is the pride that often comes with power, with wealth. What God hates is the oppressive leadership of the proud found throughout history. So why do we keep craving the power and wealth of the world? When we read in the sermon on the plain later in Luke, “blessed are the poor”, Luke is getting at much more than social and political realities, though they are also included. He is talking about the spiritually poor (the humble) and the spiritually rich (the proud). So where are you? Can you be categorized as the poor in spirit? If so, Jesus says you are blessed! Oh, but if this is not true of you, I urge you to repent before the Lord. Humble yourself before him before he brings you low in another way. Verse 54 continues the praises: 54 He has helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy, 55 as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his offspring forever.” Verse 54 tells us that God sent his Son in “remembrance” of his promises to Abraham. That promise was that all the world would be blessed through his offspring! Galatians tells us that Jesus is that offspring. He is the salvation of the world! Israel waited for thousands of years for the Messiah. In the birth of Jesus, God has helped his servant Israel! In the birth of Jesus he has helped us! He will surely finish what he started. Who is like our God? Gospel Call: If you do not yet know Christ I hope you are beginning to see your need for help? I hope you are beginning to see that help comes through Jesus? He is the help you need! It’s just that simple. God knows what you need, sinner. God knows what you need, sufferer. You need a Savior. You need a perfect life, you need a substitute for the death you deserve for your sins against God. You need life to overcome death. You need Jesus Christ, who lived perfectly, died that death you deserved, and rose again. God sent his Son out of great love for us so that all who would believe on him would be saved – saved from sin, from Satan, and from the world. Find your help today in Jesus. Turn to him today if you do not know him and find help. Be baptized and join a family that will help you grow in your faith. Forgotten? If you think that your sin, your circumstances, your life is too far gone, that you are too far from God, hear me today: God doesn’t forget you. If he can rescue a nation, even the world, he can rescue you today. Doubt God’s love for you no more. He is not a God who will fall through on his promises. He is not one to go back on what he says, or fail to finish what he started. Oh church, take your eyes off yourself and look to the faithful God. If you have been joined to Christ through faith, you must know that even when you are faithless God is faithful. He cannot deny himself! (2 Tim 2:13). This is reason for us to praise God! Amen? Mary saw God clearly and recognized the amazing grace shown to her and to her people Israel, and as a result she couldn’t help but praise. So what about us? You: Church, don’t you see that God has shown you incredible grace and mercy? He has come so low for you, even being born in this weak flesh, bearing the weight of the world, its temptations and suffering, and dying the death that you deserve. Don’t you see that he is risen and reigning, preparing a place for you, indwelling you by his Spirit, interceding for you daily. Don’t you see God’s covenant faithfulness to you? You have a reason to sing! You have a reason to sing with joy and dancing and celebration! Allow me to finish the quote I started above from John Piper: The whole duty of the Christian can be summed up in this: feel, think, and act in a way that will make God look as great as he really is. Be a telescope for the world of the infinite starry wealth of the glory of God. This is what it means for a Christian to magnify God. But you can’t magnify what you haven’t seen or what you quickly forget. Therefore, our first task is to see and to remember the greatness and goodness of God. So we pray to God, “Open the eyes of my heart!” (Ephesians 1:18), and we preach to our souls, “Soul, forget not all his benefits!” (Psalm 103:2).”[3] We preach this glorious Gospel so that the eyes of your heart would be opened by the Spirit to see his greatness, so that you would not forget all his benefits in the midst of the trials of life, and so that your heart will respond in worship of our gracious and merciful God. Singing with heavy hearts: And church, if your heart is heavy, if you feel like you cannot rejoice today because you are still in the waiting season, you failed in that sin again this week, because you struggle to live without that loved one, or in this depression, cling to Jesus. He knows how to sympathize with you in your weakness. At Jesus’s last meal with his disciples, after revealing to Judas and Peter that they would betray him, after telling his disciples that he was about to be deserted by all and killed, Matthew’s Gospel reveals these words: 30 When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives. Jesus had a reason not to sing, he had just eaten his last meal and was headed for death. His soul was in such anguish that he would sweat drops of blood a short time later in the garden of Gethsemane. But his soul knew better. His heart knew that God was worthy of praise. His lips could not contain the Psalms of praise stored away in his heart. Even at the cross, they would come from his bloody and swollen lips. He knew God’s faithfulness, God’s goodness, and on your behalf, he sang to God the Father in faith. This Jesus lives in you, sufferer, to empower faith-filled praise in the face of evil. You don’t have to pretend you are happy, but Jesus invites you to come and sing to him in trust that he will comfort and restore you. We: This is why we gather throughout the week, to remind one another of these truths, in song, in word, in the Lord’s supper. We remember all that God has done while we wait for his second coming. Jesus Conclusion: Church, Jesus is surely coming back! And on that day we will join the heavenly chorus, with the angels, with Mary, with all the saints of old, saying, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. 7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come… (Rev 19:6-8). Let your kids, your spouse, your co-workers, your class-mates and roommates see the greatness of God this week in the way that you praise him, even if in a song of lament. In faith filled expectation, let’s magnify his name together! We have a reason to praise! For he who is mighty has done great things for you and me! And holy is his name! Amen? [1]https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/how-to-magnify-god [2]Stein, R. H. (1992). Luke(Vol. 24, p. 92). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers. [3]https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/how-to-magnify-god

Part 2-2: How Understanding My Husband’s Pornography Consumption Led to Healthy Dialogue and HealingLeanne is a wife of 31 years. She has 2 children who are both married. She is the grandmother of one. She is a retired preschool teacher of 17 years. She is enjoying her season of time with her husband as an empty nester.**Note from Leanne, please read prior to listening: I think there might be some confusion in our story for some people. Some people I think believe that we started to view pornography together as a couple. That is not what happened at all. That day that I sat down with him and opened my heart to understand what was driving him to look was the last day that he viewed it. So I just want to clarify that.When my husband and I started the journey of turning towards each other in all of the aspects of our lives and began to create a truly intimate marriage, the “need” for my husband to turn to porn left him. And my “need” to constantly check up on him left me. And I was healed from being stuck in betrayal trauma. The connection that we made in turning towards one another to proactively create what we really wanted for our marriage was the answer to porn not being an issue for either of us from that point forward. Turning towards each other healed both of us.**Transcript:0:00:04 VO: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel in this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:23 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. I'm really excited today. We get to have Leanne back on with us. We get to explore some of the topic set we addressed in the previous podcast in a little bit more depth and I'm excited and thankful that you Leanne are willing to come back on and explore these topics further with us. There is a lot of excitement with people who listen to your podcast and we're just craving more and this is a very private and very vulnerable experience for you, so I really appreciate you coming on and being willing to explore some of these topics in depth. There's clearly a need and it's moved a lot of people to hear your story. So, let's turn it over to you. Where do you wanna start? What do you feel from the people who've listened to your podcast and the comments that have been made? Where do you feel it's important to start?0:01:19 Leanne: Well, first off, thank you for having me back. I'm excited to be back on here and like you say, to go over more in-depth of my journey and how I got to where I am today, but basically I just wanna start off with my struggles, like what my struggles were with my sexuality and what was holding me back for years and years. I struggled for probably... We were married for 31 years and I probably struggled for 25 of those years, overcoming some hurdles and issues that I had in order to be able to step into my sexuality. So, basically, that's just what I wanna share with everyone today is how I overcame. What those struggles were and how I worked through them, how I overcame them, how I was able to think differently. I think so often when we try to improve our sexuality, like we come to it from... Sex, like we try to... What sex acts can improve my sexuality, what things can I be doing in the bedroom to make me like it more. And I think too often we're just chasing after sex acts when really, especially for women, our biggest sex organ truly is our brain.0:02:42 Leanne: And one of the things I learned... Just what I've heard about, I haven't read any of her books, Emily Nagoski. I've never read any of her books but I've heard people explain about her brakes and accelerators and I realized that for years and years as... 'Cause I wanted to want sex, I wanted to like sex. I did have that desire, all through the years of my marriage, I just could not figure out how to get there. And so, I would try different things over the years but what I realized with brakes and accelerators was even though I was trying to push on the gas and go forward and figure it out, I was standing on the brakes. I had so many issues piled up that I just didn't have my foot on the brake, I was standing hard on the brake. And so that was preventing me to make any forward movement at all in the area of intimacy, does that make sense?0:03:38 Daniel: It does and for those who aren't familiar with Emily's book it's "Come as You Are", great book, very very insightful, gets into exactly what you're talking about, the science and the process our brains go through in experiencing sexual arousal. Tell us a little bit more though. What do you mean you're standing on the brake? What did that look like for you? What were you doing or not doing?0:04:01 Leanne: For me, standing on the brakes, I guess, meant for me just any time I would try to make any forward progress in my marriage. One of the issues that I want... I'll talk. Some of these issues that were holding me back, they would just come forward to the surface and then I would be slamming on that brake again. And so, yeah, I guess going forward, talking here, we'll just start talking about some of those things that kept me with my foot on the brake.0:04:27 Daniel: Yeah, let's start by that.0:04:29 Leanne: Okay, so first off, when I finally decided that I really wanted to start working on my sexuality, one day I came across a little meme on Facebook and it broke down the word intimacy and I'm sure people have seen this before, but it broke it down to me saying, "Into me see". And I break it down to "into me you see." And what that means to me is, for me, the goal in marriage is to have a desire to know your partner on a very deep level and then to also allow your partner to know you on that very deep level. And for me that means knowing your partner's heart, their mind, their spirit, their body, and then letting them also know your heart, your mind, your spirit, your body. And so I really wanted that, that was the goal of me being able to work on my sexuality, was I wanted all of that, I wanted all that intimacy had to offer, and so that was the driving force that moved me forward to really working on my sexuality. But first, the first thing I think that I had to figure out was in order to be intimate on a sexual level, and to have true intimacy in a marriage, you really need to work on all the levels of intimacy in your marriage, and that means working on the psychological intimacy in your marriage which means honesty, loyalty, trust and commitment. I feel like that is the foundation to your marriage, is those four things; honesty, loyalty, trust and commitment.0:06:09 Leanne: And then the other areas are verbal, emotional, intellectual, spiritual, physical, and then I've also added recreational. But in order to really be able to work on that physical level, the other levels had to also be being worked on. It's not just enough to say, "I want a wonderful intimate life, intimate sexual life." I feel like it was important in my marriage to work on all the levels. And once my husband and I started to work on all those levels of intimacy within our marriage, then it was easier to work on the physical intimacy part. I think so often we hear that women are more emotional and for me that's definitely true. And so I had to feel like things were being worked on outside of the bedroom in order for me to also be working on things inside of the bedroom.0:06:57 Daniel: Before we get there and maybe you're gonna address this, but what did you have to do yourself? In the previous podcast and online you've talked a lot about how you have to face your own trauma, you have to face your own hold-ups around this before you can engage and improve your relationship together. That's a very difficult place for people who especially have experienced trauma and mental health issues around intimacy. How did you get there? What did you do to... We already discovered in the previous podcast that you do have a level of insight that I think is a little higher than most people, but regardless, what did you do to recognize, "Okay, I need to address this, this is my issue that I need to overcome." And what steps did you take?0:07:50 Leanne: I honestly think the thing that really hit me the hardest when I started to really face myself was one day I was... It was the very, very first podcast that I listened to from Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, and I can't even remember where... I know it was some LDS site, like LDS Living or something and I've tried to find it and I haven't been able to just find it since, but she talks in that podcast about... We really need to bring our very best self to our partners every day. Like, we need to take a good long look at ourselves and ask ourselves, would we wanna be married to ourselves? "Would I wanna be married to someone like me?" And when I really started to look hard at myself and answer that question, the answer was no. I would not wanna be married to me, I was not nice because of some of the anxieties that I faced, I gave myself permission to act badly towards my husband either in coming from a place of I'm trying to protect myself or then also coming through a place of excusing my anxieties and saying, "I can't help it. This is just how I soothe myself, it's how I soothe my anxieties, is to control everything that's around me."0:09:09 Leanne: And so, it really hit me hard when I listened to that podcast when she said, "We, we need to bring our best self to our spouse, every day." And I feel like my husband, for the most part, did bring his best self to me every day. He is so kind and very caring and very patient. And I realized that I wasn't giving the same.0:09:32 Daniel: Was there a point, and maybe I'm making some assumptions here, that you viewed him as the broken one with the issues around pornography and maybe his behavior in the bedroom? Did you view him as the broken one and then have this epiphany like, "Oh, my goodness. I'm the one who's struggling here."0:09:49 Leanne: It doesn't really played a role, it played a role in the bedroom, it played a role just because I had my foot so hard on the brakes that I... "He's just using my body because of what he's seen."0:10:03 Daniel: Yes, exactly, thank you for clarifying. And that's what I was alluding to.0:10:07 Leanne: Yeah, so some of the struggles within the actual sexual realm of things, I could blame some of them on him but I also knew what was going on in my own head, surrounding some of the struggles that I had, and so then I just realized I needed to work on 'em.0:10:32 Daniel: Yeah, again, so you had that level of insight where you were able to acknowledge, and I think for the most part, most people are like that. Specifically women. I think there is that level, "Okay, I know there's an issue here with me too, but the pain and the difficulties in the relationship make it difficult to focus on that inward self because you see other problems in the relationship that you want to address or think are bigger and contributing to that, in this case maybe the pornography, it's tempting to say, "My husband's behavior is what's triggering me and until he fixes it, I can't fix myself." But you're seeing that or at least at this point you're saying, "No, I gotta address myself too."0:11:17 Leanne: Mm-hmm. 'Cause I knew it was part of it, but I knew it was definitely not all of it, so I finally had to just face myself, "I need to figure this out." So then some of the things that I struggled with, like the first one being "the good girl syndrome" and I talked about that the other day. I think it's so hard, and not in just LDS relationships, but also I've heard lately more just in Christian relationships, in religions that really stifle sexuality or have such a strong belief around waiting 'til you're married. So, we get this message growing up that it's a bad thing like, "We don't do this, it's bad." And then all of a sudden when you're married, it's okay, it's fine now. It's really, really hard to change gears for a lot of women, and not just women, but for some men too, it's really hard to all of a sudden think it's okay. So, I had to get over that good girl syndrome and just really come to embrace the fact that I was created to be a sexual being as well as a emotional, and intellectual, and spiritual being, I was also created to be a sexual being.0:12:28 Leanne: And, I think, so often growing up and nobody talking to us when we're teenagers of how to embrace our sexuality we try to repress it. And the other thing I struggled with and I talked about this on the last podcast, was I struggled to be sexual and spiritual within the same body, that didn't make sense to me of how to marry the two. And so the danger is in that though was I was completely shutting down my sexuality because I thought that my spiritual self should learn how to control the physical self. And by doing that it's like you're cutting off your arm, like when you shut down, you're shutting down a part of who you are and it's...0:13:12 Daniel: Let me pause you right there for a second 'cause that's I think an important statement there, and I wanna make sure that the listeners understand what you just said. Tell us a little bit more about what it means, or at least what your paradigm was at the time that you're thinking the spiritual self should, would you say control my sexual behavior or my sexual desire, and you couldn't marry 'em together, what were you... Tell us a little bit more about what that meant to you at the time?0:13:39 Leanne: I feel like it meant that if I... We hear that about our carnal selves and that we need to learn, control our carnal selves, and the natural man is an enemy to God. And so I think I was equating that my sexual part of myself was carnal, it was dirty, it was naughty, it was wanting things that it shouldn't want, and so...0:14:06 Daniel: And that's why you were shutting it down, is...0:14:09 Leanne: Mm-hmm.0:14:10 Daniel: The experience you're having spiritually, so what was that? Did you feel like it was the spirit telling that this was inappropriate, that this was dirty, this shouldn't be pursued? And if you did, how do you view that insight now? Do you still look at that and say, "Yes, that was a spirit telling me that?" Or how do you reconcile that now?0:14:31 Leanne: No, I don't believe that was the spirit at all. I think that was fear, I think it was fear, I think it was guilt, it was shame, it was those. It was those feelings. They were very negative and I don't think that's how the spirit works.0:14:45 Daniel: Yeah, and it's interesting though, because this is not the first time I've heard this. And I've had many, many people come in and say, "This isn't right, the spirit's telling me it isn't." But typically, and who am I? I can't tell somebody that they're not feeling the Spirit, but this is usually what I'm discovering, is it's fear. How would you guide people who are trying to sort that out to distinguish between the Spirit and the fear or guilt that they're feeling around it, and why are they confusing the two? Kind of a bunch of questions there, but I guess, how would somebody distinguish that? What did you do to identify that really wasn't the spirit, that was actually fear and guilt?0:15:33 Leanne: When I finally decided that I was gonna work on my sexuality and really open up my perceptions, and my thinking around it, and just become more open in my thinking, very quickly when I started to work on things with my husband there was a difference. Our relationship just grew so quickly, whereas before there was just... It was a hindrance to our relationship, progress was not being made. The guilt was there that I should not feel that way towards my husband, it's a beautiful thing and if there's guilt for even trying to become closer, I mean that's not right. That's not what our heavenly father wants for us, He wants us to be close, very, very close in that relationship. And so, once I just decided, "I'm not gonna feel these feelings of guilt anymore. I'm not gonna allow them into my mind," and started to work on things with my husband, very, very quickly things moved along at a really beautiful pace, really beautiful, wonderful things were happening within my marriage.0:16:51 Daniel: Are you willing or comfortable with sharing any details, experiences around that?0:16:58 Leanne: Well one thing, and I kinda have details interwoven when I talk about some of my struggles. So there's the one struggle that I had of giving and receiving. Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife talks about this a lot. Truly being able to receive from your partner and you truly being able to give to your partner. I think, so often as women, we have a hard time receiving because we're always on the giving and the serving end of the doing and the taking care of kids, we have a really hard time receiving sometimes. And so the very first time that I had really learned how to calm my anxieties down in the bedroom, and there was one particular time when we were being intimate, and I for the first time ever I felt on a very deep level of how much my husband was giving to me, like giving his whole self to me, his heart, his spirit, his mind, his body, and I just had tears just streaming down my face because I felt like his goodness was pouring into me, and afterwards I was like, "I felt that. I felt your generosity towards me. I felt your love and your goodness," and he said, "I've been trying to love you that way for 27 years but you shut me down."0:18:25 Leanne: I was just stuck in a place of, my mind was just so closed because of the guilt that I couldn't even open up to begin to accept what he was trying to offer me through his sexuality.0:18:36 Daniel: What an amazing experience. He was able to tell you that in those words is, "You're were shutting me down?"0:18:42 Leanne: Mm-hmm. Yup.0:18:43 Daniel: It sounds like maybe you were ready and a place to hear that. I don't know, if I recommend every husband say that to their to their spouse, but...0:18:52 Leanne: I definitely, yes, I definitely was in a place to hear that.0:18:55 Daniel: That's wonderful, and you were recognizing how much love he was giving to you. So it sounds like you were ready to hear that. What a wonderful experience.0:19:02 Leanne: And the other thing on that other end, so then the giving part, I think, that something that can become problematic and it was for me, is we...0:19:13 Leanne: Dr. Jennifer, she talks about this and she got this idea from David Schnarch. And it's where we want to belong to ourselves, like the desire to belong to ourselves is even stronger than the desire to receive sexual pleasure. And so, if we as women or anybody if you don't step into your sexuality and really embrace it and own it and want to share it with another person, then you're constantly gonna be feeling like your partner is taking it from you, 'cause you're not freely giving it and so you're gonna... Over time, I became very resentful because I felt like my husband was constantly taking from me and when I really stepped into my sexuality and had the strong desire to share it with my husband, it made all the difference in the world for me, I never feel like he's taking from me anymore 'cause I've owned it, I've owned that sexuality, it is mine, and it's mine to share. So those feelings completely went away. And so the resentful feelings went away, all that went away because my sexuality now belongs to me.0:20:17 Daniel: If you don't mind, I wanna emphasize that point that is so, so critical in the process. And I love how you describe it when you're rejecting your spouse, you're setting him up for failure and you're gonna always feel like he's taking something away from you or burdening you. And I see that dynamic over and over and over again, where the spouse, the wife in this case, will set certain expectations, until those expectations are met there's no physical intimacy, whatever those expectations may be, and it sets the partner up for failure because you can't ever really live up to those expectations. Whatever they be, you may be able to do it, but then it becomes a checklist and it's anything but intimate. And that creates that cycle downward that spiral downward because, so well said, because it feels like now it becomes this exchange of tasks and a burden, it does not create the intimacy. So that is so hard to break, but then what's reinforcing it is we're thinking, "Well, we're having this negative experience in our sexual dynamic relationship because he isn't doing his part." It becomes very deflective, and so being able to look at this and say, "Open up to it." And then it's connecting, it's beautiful.0:21:39 Daniel: And then you have these experiences. Now, not everybody's gonna have this, there's... In fact, I'm very curious, I would love to know at least your perspective what your husband was going through? He's been... He was giving and giving and giving for 27 years. That's endurance in... I would have to say, I know very few men who are able to maintain that level of giving for so long without becoming resentful, lost in their own sexuality. What do you think, if your husband wouldn't mind you sharing, what he was able to do to embrace that and continue patiently giving? And I'm not assuming he never had an issue of maybe resentment or hurt feelings. We're human beings, right? What do you think allowed him to continue to be loving and patient over almost three decades?0:22:33 Leanne: It makes me a little weepy. He just had a very, very strong love for me. So it sounds like cheesy in a way to be like, "It's because he loves me, that's why he was able to endure it all." But that really was it, he was so in love with me, and that's not to say that there weren't hard times, there were times when things were rough and he would weep and he would say, "You hurt me deeply, you're not nice, and you hurt me deeply." But it was because he loved me so immensely that he endured it, and then also when he prayed to know whether he should marry me or not the answer that he got was yes and take care of her. And he understood how broken I was from the trauma that I received as a child and a teenager. He understood that he knew how broken I was and I think also he knew I was trying. I did want to want it and I expressed that often. It's not that I was the type of person that I was like, "I hate it, don't talk to me about it. I don't want anything to do with it." I wasn't that type of a person, I was the type of person that I would longing to want it, I just didn't know how to get there. And so he was very patient with me all those years and he just loved me through it and felt like he made that promise to my father that he would take care of me.0:24:07 Daniel: What would you say to men who... I think there's a lot of men who have the level of love that your husband has for you, but the years have taken such a toll on them in their relationship and they're experiencing this, their wife not wanting you can't even bring up sex anymore, you can't talk about it. It's become very isolating even to suggest therapy or some sort of intervention around sex is just yet another manipulation or selfish desire to have more sex. What are your thoughts around encouraging those husbands to support their wives who are disconnected from this? Who aren't having that level of insight and they're starting experience that bitterness, any thoughts? They're not losing the love but they're they're lost themselves. It's been such a lonely experience that they don't know what to do. Do you recommend how husbands can support their wives and helping them understand their sexuality better?0:25:06 Leanne: That's a situation that really breaks my heart and I wish I could sit down with those wives and have a conversation with them because I feel like in a marriage where the wives have completely set down is a very difficult place to be for men. And my heart really aches for them.0:25:26 Leanne: I know that I've listened to a couple of podcasts by Jennifer Finlayson's life. Where she addresses that. And she talks about how a husband needs to sit down with his wife and say, "This is not okay for me, I need to feel loved in this way. And we have created this dynamic within our marriage to where we won't even talk about it and that's just not okay for me anymore. I'm suffering and our marriage is suffering and I believe you're suffering as well. And something needs to change." I'm not an expert to speak on that. But I feel like from things I've heard from Jennifer, she is an expert and has helped in that area. She talks a lot about how we each collude in the kind of marriage that we have. And I think that oftentimes in a marriage if we're not speaking up, in a loving way, and just kind of claiming what our desires are and what our needs are, if we're not speaking up about those then we are colluding in the type of marriage that we are creating.0:26:28 Daniel: I like that idea in what you're saying there. First of all, I think what you're saying is very helpful. I think a lot of women appreciate hearing that. That you feel sad that they're in those difficult, difficult places, where they don't even... To even think about sex, would just drain them and frustrate them. And somehow getting out of that.0:26:50 Daniel: But what I also liked is, how to have that discussion. I think there's so much shame for men. There's this, I don't know if it's completely acceptable. But it tends to be more acceptable to not want to have sex and so when the higher desire partner wants to have better sex or more connecting sex, it's viewed as selfish, carnal. And so the man and the relationship is experiencing these feelings of guilt, embarrassment. Yes, I wanna have more sex, I wanna have this type of sex. And so they're shutting themselves down, before they even have that conversation with their wife. But I like how you said that when you can frame it, put all other frustrations aside.0:27:32 Daniel: A lot of times this conversation happens in connection to so many things kids, busy life, stresses and then we throw in, "Well we're not even having sex anymore." or "That's all you want." But to be able to have that dedicated conversation and say, "Sweetheart, I love you and I want this area of our life to be better." and I keep it within that context, I think, can set each other up for success and to be able to address those issues better. I really like that insight there.0:28:01 Leanne: And the reason why I wish I could sit down and talk to the wives is, I think we as wives, really don't understand how that oftentimes, not in every marriage, but statistically are more regularly that a husband, the way he gives love and receives love is through physical intimacy. He feels it on a very deep level. And we as wives do not understand that. I think society has conditioned us to believe that men are just sex pots and that's all they want is sex. They just wanna use women's bodies to get their own physical pleasure and I don't think that's true at all. I mean, it can be true for some people, that they're selfish and they use their sexuality in selfish ways. But I really believe for the most part that men, that's how they are wired, is to love deeply and give love deeply, to feel love deeply and give love deeply through their sexuality.0:29:01 Leanne: And when I grew to really understand that, that's what changed for me. A big thing in the bedroom like that night when I felt the goodness coming from him, it's because I wasn't just being like yes my husband is having sex with me. I felt on a deep level what he was offering to me from every fiber of his being. When you can receive that as a woman, it is amazing and beautiful. And so I wish women could understand it and calm down their anxiety surrounding their husband sexuality and stop putting a label on what it is that they're wanting from... And open up their heart to the fact that your husband just wants to really love you deeply. That helped for me a lot.0:29:45 Daniel: I love this so much because one of my mentors in this field has often said, "Who is your sexual role model?" And I think that's one of the biggest obstacles that we face both men and women in relationships is, you're doing something tremendous for women right now, you're providing, whether you like it or not, you're providing a healthy role model, and the journey you took to get there. It's one thing to hear you can have an amazing sex life, but what does that really mean when all your definition right now is around sex, your sexual relationship is shame, pain and bearable at times. What is it to even mean when we say a thriving healthy sex life?0:30:30 Daniel: I think, a lot of people think... Oh, just more sex. They don't understand what you're actually saying here is a beautiful, profound connection. Which is exactly what they're desiring and is being hindered because they can't see that. But the same thing for men, and unfortunately I think a lot of men get into this place that thinking just like women, sex is bad, but yet they have these urges and desires, and they don't know how to manage them. And then they start to view them cells in the way that they've been told to view themselves.0:31:02 Daniel: It's bad, it's dirty, they take on that definition so they don't even engage in the conversation. And I'll tell you from personal experience because we don't have sexual role models and we don't understand what healthy sex looks like. Which is a variety of experiences, based on couples personalities, cultures and their relationship with the Lord. I didn't know what I wanted. And so it was a frustrating conversation to have, because even though my wife was willing to listen and not just willing, but embracing it. I didn't know what to say because I didn't know what I, I think I knew what I wanted in a relationship, in a sexual relationship. But then I had to come to the understanding to be able to explain, you know what, this is what I'm curious about, I'm wondering if this will work well for me.0:31:49 Daniel: And for you, let's reevaluate because I think we finally have this big conversation, this vulnerable conversation where you're now in a place to have that conversation and your husband is, "What do I say? I just want better sex. And this is how I think we're gonna get there and then we hold to that." It's like, "You don't want that? Well, you know what? I just discovered what I wanted in the relationship was to be able to explore that with you. It really had little to do with the actual physical act but now I feel safe." I could tell you, I'm really curious about this and I'm wondering if this will help in our relationship and not be shut down or viewed as selfish or promiscuous or dirty. I know in my personal experience that allowed me to at least redefine what a sexual relationship looked like because I really didn't know, I had no idea. And where do you begin with that? Even when your wife is willing to have that discussion, I think it's a daunting and scary experience but allowing yourself to reevaluate, come back and discuss, and I think that's been the most bonding opportunities with my wife is just being able to feel like we can openly discuss it. What's your experience around that? Or does that resonate with you?0:33:03 Leanne: Yeah, when I was starting to work through all these, all the things that like the breaks that I had on, like the Good Girl Syndrome, marrying of the spiritual and sexual and just all that. When I was really starting to work through those and be able to push each one aside as I work through. We started practicing, we had sex every day, every single day for probably about six weeks and it really was a learning, and a growing, and a discovery time for the two of us. Just like what does this look like? What does this sexual relationship between the two of us? What's it gonna look like? And so, we practiced and try things and for six weeks, every single day, and it was a great learning experience for both of us, where we both felt free to express our desires and discover each other in a sexual way.0:34:03 Daniel: What made you think of that? I mean was that just something that you randomly thought of says, "Hey, let's do this every day for six weeks and see what happens." Or where did you get that idea from?0:34:13 Leanne: We just started practicing and it just happened. [chuckle] It is not, but that's okay. And it's funny and I have to say this. So, just recently in general conference the one man gave the talk about reading the Scripture and suddenly he's like, "Every day, every day, every day." And my husband and I left because when we were practicing, when we would start again my husband was like joking he got, "Every day, every day, every day." And so that just made us laugh so much when it came up on general conference and we looked at each other 'cause it's just kind of something cute that you would say to me as we were practicing, but we never like said, "Here's the timeframe, we're gonna do this for six weeks. Is just happened that I think we were just both excited that we were working on it, that we were discovering each other, it was exciting for us.0:35:05 Daniel: You took away in that strategy, if we called this pursuer and avoider dynamic where he's pursuing and you're avoiding and you created as a both come together, you're treating each other as equals. I think that's crucial, I think there's this... As we engage into this discovery mode, we pay a little bit more tension like you've been cautioning people to do, to put aside your fears, but there's still that fear there that they want to respect and they don't jump in like that. And I think that's really important, I think we're preparing a little too much emotionally to go into sex and instead view it as, "Let's learn, let's try this, let's schedule it, let's at least plan for it in some way and make it a mutual goal." And that eliminates a lack of predictability, right now, at least at that point in your relationship, what I'm hearing is there's so much unpredictability and there's so much harder and discovery that need to happen that you didn't wanna give heed to that ambiguity anymore. You said, "Let's do this every day. Let's create some predictability, let's be a team on this and come together." Am I hearing you right?0:36:16 Leanne: Mm-hmm. And one thing I wanna say too about that pursuer and... I, a couple of years before that, one thing that we did that helps us transition then 'cause like I said I did want to want sex. I did try different things throughout our marriage to figure things out. But one thing that was helpful for me is Laura Brotherson does talk about how sometimes husbands and wives can create anxiety within each other and by the husband-wife, she calls it the Hungry Dog Syndrome where the husband like it's been a while since he's had sex and he wants it, and he's requesting it and his wife doesn't want it, and so we're creating this hungry dog, she calls it syndrome, where he's chasing after her and looking for any cues that she's throwing him that he might get lucky that night.0:37:09 Daniel: Oh, yeah.0:37:10 Leanne: And he gets irritable and cranky because he's not getting his need's man and he's not being able to be close to his wife in the way that he wants, and so he gets cranky but the more he pursues her and chases after her, the more anxiety is created in her and so she is the avoiding wife, she will avoid touch, she will avoid flirting, she'll avoid any flirty looks from him, because she doesn't wanna send him a message in any way, shape, or form that he might get lucky. And so you're creating this anxiety within each other outside of the bedroom where he's chasing it, she's running all the time. And so, I came to my husband one day and I just came up with this on my own, I sat down with him and I said, "Okay, I need to learn to not run from you, any time you go to hug me or touch me." If I'm at the kitchen sink and he comes up and fondles me, I would elbow him like, "Stop, you always have to be touching me." I can't even begin to tell you how many times I said, "Can you not just love me for my brain? Does it always have to be about my body?" I've said that so many times to him.0:38:12 Leanne: Why does it always have to be about my body? And the sad thing is he just wanted to be affectionate with me, he just wanted to love me, he just wanted to come and connect with me. But I always perceived it as, "This is sexual, so stop." So anyway, I sat down with him and I said, "I need to learn to stop running," and so at that time, what I said was, "Can we please schedule sex? How many days a week would you like to have sex?" And so we negotiated how many days that would be and we said, "Okay," then I said, "Which days are those?" And so we decided upon which two days of the week those were gonna be. And I said, "Okay, I promise you that on those two days I will say yes, we will have sex." But on the other days outside of the bedroom or even inside the bedroom, no matter how much touch we give each other you cannot ask me for sex. But I need to learn to become comfortable kissing you, embracing you, allowing you to touch me in those fondling ways, and I need to learn to be able to calm my anxieties down around those types of touches. And I said, "Even if we full-on make-out on the couch, you cannot ask me for sex if it's a non-sex day," so that I can learn to be comfortable with touch, with your touch, with your wanting to be just intimate with me just through touch that's not sexual in nature.0:39:34 Daniel: I can't tell you how successful that strategy is. Too many people feel like, "Well that's gonna kill the mood and the desire by scheduling. And I will even depending on the relationship, tell them to schedule specifically when you're gonna do it, 9 o'clock at night, 8 o'clock in the morning, otherwise we find we push it out, but not everybody has to do that. Like your approach generally saying, "Tuesdays and Thursdays, for example, are our sex days and it will happen that day," that allows us to put aside our anxieties. Okay, I'm not gonna engage 'cause as you said, "This sexual dynamic becomes a pursuer and an avoider experience where the man is looking for every clue, looking for all those micro expressions. Is this a flirt or is she just being nice with me? Can I go in for a loving touch? And then it feels like groping, it feels like inappropriate, it feels like objecting, and then it shuts down the loving engagement that the the husband is trying to express. But by setting up a specific time we're able to put those anxieties aside. Okay, I don't have to worry about being grabbed today, randomly, or I don't have to worry about constantly looking at my wife.0:40:41 Daniel: Is this the right time? Is she giving me a clue? We put all that stress aside, so we've been able to eliminate that stress. We've already got too much stress in our relationship, and then to be able to engage, and follow through with that. And a lot of couples feel like that kills the romance. And so the first question I ask is, "Are you having romance right now? [chuckle] No, no, none. And so being able to create that predictability will then allow for romance to happen. And so you can create, so excellent approach. Absolutely excellent.0:41:15 Leanne: Because I found that in doing that, being able to calm down that anxiety, then when he did come up, for instance, behind me at the kitchen sink and give me a hug and then maybe even fondled me a little bit. I was able to learn to fold into that touch, to really embrace that and appreciate it, and just know that he just was wanting my attention. He was wanting to be affectionate with me, and I was able to fold into that instead of being angry, "Ahh he wants sex with me tonight," it's like, "Nope, it's not a sex night," I can fold into this, he's just wanting a moment with me at the kitchen sink. So that helped a lot, and that was a couple of years before the whole exercise of every day. And now it's not even a thought, we engage in all kinds of touch and flirting, and it's not even a worry in either one of our minds if it will or will not lead to the bedroom. Our relationship now it's beautiful, it's wonderful. All of it is just embraced and cherished.0:42:19 Daniel: Do you have any words of advice or cautions that you've learned from your relationship that you feel is important to share that we haven't addressed yet?0:42:28 Leanne: Any cautions?0:42:29 Daniel: Yeah, maybe reflecting on your own approach, What words of advice would you give the wives who are maybe willing to, "Okay, this is scary for me, I wanna open up and embrace my husband's sexual touches." Is there any words of caution around that? Do you feel like that can go wrong? Or did it go wrong for you at any point? Or any other aspects of your sexual relationship and self-discovery?0:42:55 Leanne: I definitely feel like there are still boundaries. And I still give myself permission if there's a certain thing I don't like, I voice it. Just because we're being more open and accepting, you still have your boundaries and it is absolutely okay to voice your boundaries and say, "I don't care for that, or I don't like when you touch me in that certain way it really bothered me because of the," is that what you mean?0:43:22 Daniel: Yeah, that's a great clarification. 'Cause I don't want the listeners to think, "Okay, I'm going to follow Leanne's example and just give myself completely over to my husband's sexual desires and anything goes. You still get that right to say, "I'm uncomfortable with this, I'm not sure about this, I'm not ready for that." Whatever that boundary looks like. And so how do you go about or how would you recommend going about that? 'cause it could be a fine line at times, right? You're wanting to explore, but you also don't wanna shut your partner down. How do you have that communication or to navigate that, that disinterest or that boundary without shutting down, or regressing in your recovery?0:44:06 Leanne: Well, for me, we have progressed so far that I do it just because of the personality that I am. I kinda do it in a blunt, but jokey way, I will say to him, "I am not a milk cow. Please don't touch me that way. It makes me feel like a milk cow."0:44:26 Leanne: Like, stuff like that. Because we've come so far that it's not... We know where we are.0:44:33 Daniel: It's not rejection.0:44:33 Leanne: No, it's not rejection at all because he knows that nine times out of 10 the way he touches me I love and I accept, and I revel in. But if there's a certain way I'll be like, "Hey, that doesn't feel good to me," and sometimes I'll make a joke out of it, but sometimes, I'm like... But I would say though in the bedroom, this is like outside of the bedroom, but in the bedroom when you're trying new things I definitely am more tender, or more thoughtful of his feelings, like make sure just, "Why don't you try it this way 'cause that way is hurting me a little bit." Or I'm more careful with how I... So just because that is so vulnerable place to be in the... You're all there, your whole body, all of you is there. And so I feel like more of a sacred space. I'm definitely more careful.0:45:22 Daniel: And I think husbands need to embrace the idea once you get to at least this level of sexual development and healthy approach. Recognizing it's not a rebuke, it's not a criticism. It's I want you to pleasure me, and if you're willing I could give you ideas on what will help, and right now that's not helping. And being able to embrace that as a learning tool and as a connecting tool as opposed to filling criticized and shut down. Because I think husbands too often will hear it, "Stop doing that," and they stop everything or they give up, or whatever.0:46:04 Leanne: I think husbands they get such a bad rap. It just makes me so sad. But I think they are very sensitive in this area. They feel like they're, society tells them that they should be these sexual experts who should automatically know how to please a woman or whatever. And it opens them up to, there's a lot of pressure that they feel to try to please their wives. And then I wanna talk about that for a minute, so the learning each other sexually. Too often we think that men just need to automatically know what their wives would want. And recently, I've heard this idea and concept and it's absolutely true, and made so much such in my head. You're the only one that's in charge of your sexual pleasure, you're in charge of it because you're the only one that's in your head and inside your body. Your husband's not, he doesn't know what you're thinking. He doesn't know what you're feeling inside of your body. And so yes he's trying to pleasure you, but if you don't voice if that's pleasurable or not he's not gonna know. And so it takes a lot of communication. And if a wife is not receiving, if she's unhappy with her sex life and basically all they're having his intercourse because she hasn't voiced anything different and she hates it and resents it.0:47:36 Leanne: Well, my question to them is, "Have you asked for anything different? Because how is he supposed to know that you want anything different? And I think me, I talked about this in my last podcast. But men and women really do need to understand each other sexualities and how we pick, and that women tend to be more emotional. And if my emotional needs were not being meet outside the bedroom, then it is hard for me to then be physical with my husband. If I feel like he was being, that he was mean to me on a certain day, or just really being grumpy and kinda taking it out on me, I'm gonna be less inclined to want to then be physical with him in the bedroom if he asks me for it. It's like, "You were kind of a jerk today, I'm not feeling emotionally connected to you because you hurt my feelings." But sometimes maybe we need to get to the bottom of that."Have you had a rough day? You seem really stressed today. Can I help you with that at all? Can we talk about that?" And maybe it's the end of the day and he answers that conversation, "Yes, he was really stressed and yes he would love to be with us intimately to get some tenderness from us to relieve that stress." And so yes, we can't completely shut him down because they were barking outside the bedroom.0:48:55 Leanne: But I think men also has a duty to understand that it's important for women to feel connected on emotional level with their husbands in order to be able to be intimate in the bedroom. But then on the other hand, women need to understand that men that's the way they connect with you is through the physical. That's the way they show you that they love you and you need to love and embrace that.0:49:16 Leanne: And women and men we've talked about it before, we need to figure out what each other likes. We need to have some [0:49:23] ____ focused exercises within our marriage where you're just really discovering each other's bodies, and discovering what each other likes. That needs to be happening. Women need to figure out what they love, so do men. And we need to come together as a couple and figure out and what then together we can do to bring the most pleasure to each other in all aspects, in the four-levels, spiritual, mental, emotional, bring all that together, and figure it out. And it's a journey. I think people think it's gonna happen overnight. It is not, it doesn't happen overnight. It's a journey and you need to embrace it as a journey. This is a journey of discovery that we are on together, and embrace it and be excited about it.0:50:09 Daniel: And it never ends, because we're constantly changing...0:50:13 Leanne: No.0:50:13 Daniel: As human beings biologically, emotionally, stress, whatever. And so if we think, "Oh that's a mistake," we finally feel like we've had some breakthroughs we enjoy sex this way, and I think that's why a lot of couples get stuck in a rut and repeating certain routine sexual behaviors is 'cause we knew it worked then, but it still needs to be discovered. Is this still working and explore that and also a thought, going back to what you're saying about if he's grumpy, I actually recommend that you first have sex and I think it goes along with this concept of being responsible for your own sexual arousal, not making somebody else a partner or excuse me, relying on somebody else for your arousal. There is definitely a need for your partner to be loving and kind to you to help that along, but I've often suggested have sex and then have that conversation of, you appeared grumpy today, and it was kind of hard to be around that. Can we talk about that? And you'll find in almost every situation, after you have sex it's much easier to have that conversation. Much, much easier and to recover and reduce that type of behavior.0:51:33 Leanne: Sex really is or can be kind of a bomb, like a healing bomb for couples. It's a beautiful thing, it really is. It's such a beautiful gift that God has given to couples, and it breaks my heart to see all the struggle that surrounds it. Because when the barriers can be broken down and the husbands and wives can really work on this part of their relationship, it really is a healing bomb for the rest of their relationship. It's like the crowning jewel and it breaks my heart when so many couples just struggle with it, and so many women just shut it down. Not understanding it at all, not understanding what it can be. It just, it really makes me sad.0:52:39 Daniel: I think we focus a lot on how the adversary can corrupt the sexual experience, and we generally view that in the context of perverting it in physical acts. But the one aspect that the adversary tries to destroy sexuality is by avoiding it. If he can't corrupt it, then avoid it. I refer to that as sexual silence, and that can take on many, many forms. Whether it's just not talking about, or avoiding it, or saying a certain behavior is bad, it shuts it down and it creates that divisiveness. But if we're able to use sex in a way to communicate we could bring each other together. And that's the beauty that I hear you saying over and over today.0:53:31 Leanne: I fully believe, my husband I have talked about this very thing quite often. The adversary, before we're married he will tempt us with trying to get us to have sex outside of marriage because after we're married he will try to get us to stop having sex. It is so true because he knows that will reek havoc within a marriage, and he doesn't care how he destroys a person. He doesn't care if he's having you have sex outside of marriage, or get you to stop having sex inside a marriage. He'll try to destroy people in any way he can, and he knows how powerful a marriage is when they can be deeply connected sexually. A marriage that is truly intimate in all levels of their marriage, that is a powerful marriage, and satan knows that, and he will try to get at it in any way you can. And the biggest way he does it is by shutting down sexuality. I firmly believe that.0:54:28 Daniel: Absolutely. Leanne, you've been so insightful. Is there any other things that you would like to address before we end today's podcast?0:54:37 Leanne: Okay, one more thing really, really fast.0:54:39 Daniel: Absolutely, take your time.0:54:40 Leanne: Can I just say that having kids is really tiring. And my husband and I weren't able to have children, but we adopted two children. And sex and being able to work on your life, sex life, it gets easier, and easier as the kids get older and older. And so I would just say give yourself grace in this area. Both husbands and wives need to realize that kids can be exhausting, and there's seasons of our lives that are harder for us to work on our sex lives just because of exhaustion. There are two things that kill desire the most, one is exhaustion, and the other one is being pressured. If you feel pressured to have sex or if you are exhausted those are the two main killers of desire. And so I just wanna say, just know that and work through that. It's gonna be tricky to work through when your kids are small, especially, but just try to keep working on that as much as you can. And just keep looking forward to that day, it's gonna get easier, it's gonna get easier. And now that we're empty nesters it's amazing because we work on it whenever we want. But we had something to work on it on the other side of our kids being gone, like we started working on this a couple of years ago. And so we weren't staring at each other when both of our kids are gone saying, "We don't know who we are anymore. Like who are you?0:56:17 Leanne: I haven't been creating this relationship with you all these years. I don't even know you." And husbands, I didn't realize how hard kids were until I had my little grand baby for two weeks, a couple of weeks ago, and he kicked my butt. I had him for two weeks and I was exhausted, and it really made me appreciate again young mothers. And so husbands just step in where you can to help her, especially if it's a night that you know you're gonna have sex. Help her get the kids to bed, help her with dinner, help her relieve some of that exhaustion, so she has some energy left for you at the end, 'cause honestly kids can be exhausting.0:57:04 Daniel: Yes, they can be.0:57:05 Leanne: I discovered that. [chuckle]0:57:07 Daniel: Absolutely.0:57:07 Leanne: I discovered that a couple of weeks ago. I was like, "Oh my God."0:57:09 Daniel: In with those, to borrow this idea that we talked about earlier. Even in my opinion, I find that with kids scheduling is even more important 'cause you can do it during nap time time, and create some sort of expectation around that, positive expectation with your spouse, so that you don't feel like you're being demanded from constantly. Thank you Leanne. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing more of your story, thank you.0:57:38 Leanne: Can I say one more thing really, really fast.0:57:40 Daniel: Of course. Go for it.0:57:41 Leanne: Okay, one thing that helped me the most and then I'll be done. It's been bugging me 'cause I knew I wanted to say it and I couldn't remember what it was. Because men and women's desire is so different, there's responsive desire versus, what's the other one? I'm sure you know it, responsive versus spontaneous. So a husband is more spontaneous desire, when he thinks about sex he's ready to go right then, and a woman is more responsive, she kinda has to kinda start being intimate and then the desire comes. And so the biggest thing that helped for me was to always have a pilot light lit with inside of me. And what the pilot light says to me is that, "I am so connected to you, and I want to be known by you, and I want you to know me, and I wanna connect on a deep level, we are already connected on that deep level." And so that pilot light is always lit and whenever my husband wants to be intimate or whatever, and I initiate just as much as he does now. But whenever he does want to initiate the answer is always yes because that pilot light is like, "Yup," and I know it will take me a little bit to get in the mood, like right now I'm not sexually feeling it in this moment. I'm not turned on in this moment, but I know once we get started it will come.0:58:56 Leanne: And I think so often women are like, "I just don't have a sex drive, I just don't think about it. I don't have a sex drive." Well it's 'cause we're created differently. We're responsive, we have to be talked into sex, or feel start to engage and then the response comes. And so, I think, we as women we need to remember that. You might not feel like you're in the mood right now, but start being intimate and you'll find that not too long into it you're in the mood. And so keeping that pilot light always lit for me is very helpful.0:59:45 Daniel: I think that was a wonderful way to end us. Thank you, I appreciate your time.0:59:52 Leanne: Yup, yup. Thank you.0:59:53 Daniel: Alright.

 Amanda Louder is a Certified Life Coach who helps women from conservative Christian backgrounds love their sex life. She helps women embrace their sexuality to help them strengthen their relationship with themselves, their spouse, and their Heavenly Parents. As a first step to helping women embrace their sexuality, she has provided a FREE guide to help women understand how they personally experience pleasure. You can get this guide by going to www.amandalouder.com/improvingintimacyIn addition to being a coach, Amanda is also a wife, mom to 3 and step-mom to 2.  In her spare time, she enjoys reading, watching her kids play sports, fishing, and camping.To hear more from Amanda, you can find her on Instagram @AmandaLouderCoaching or her podcast "Live From Love" where she talks about all things sex and marriage.[music]00:02 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.00:20 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, we have life coach Amanda Louder with us, and I'm excited to explore her journey. I've been through her podcast and her website, and she's a member of the Intimacy Group. And I really enjoy her comments a lot, so I'm excited, and hopefully you are excited, to explore her journey to healthy sexuality here. So, let's jump right into it. Welcome. Tell us a little bit about yourself, Amanda.00:47 Amanda: Thanks so much, Daniel, I'm excited to be here. My name is Amanda Louder. I am a certified life coach. I coach women, primarily from conservative Christian backgrounds, help them embrace their sexuality, learn to love their sex life. I'm married. I'm currently on my second marriage, don't plan to have any more. [chuckle]01:08 DANIEL: Oh, wow.01:09 AMANDA: And together we have five kids, ranging from 11 to almost 20.01:14 DANIEL: That's exciting. So, what took you on this journey? I'm assuming that you weren't always a life coach.01:18 AMANDA: No. [chuckle]01:20 DANIEL: So, what brought you here?01:22 AMANDA: So, when I went through my divorce about eight years ago, it was really a time of discovery for me and discovering myself. And I actually have a great relationship with my ex-husband now, and we co-parent really well. And I'm remarried. I actually got remarried fairly quickly. I met my husband just six weeks after my divorce was final, and we married about nine months later, and we've been very happily married for seven years now. And so, people started reaching out to me for divorce advice, because they could see that, I guess as far as divorce goes, it was pretty successful. [chuckle] And so, I was getting calls like three or four times a month from people either asking for themselves or for a close friend or family member. And I really started thinking about going back to school to become a therapist so that I could help more women who had been in my situation. And I looked into it, and it would have taken me a lot of years and a lot of time that I wasn't willing to sacrifice with my family. I had five children at that point, and I'm very busy with them. And so, it wasn't something that I was willing to pursue. But then I found coaching a few years ago, and immediately, it felt like the right choice. It felt like what I was meant to do.02:44 AMANDA: So, I started coaching, and then I went through a certification program. I started originally just coaching women who were struggling in their marriage and contemplating divorce, helping them come to that decision for themselves with confidence and peace. And as I coached more and more, I found more and more women were struggling with healthy sexuality within their marriage and within themselves. And I was actually just on a trip this summer with a bunch of other girlfriends who are also coaches, and we're sitting around our condo, as girls do, and sex comes up. And so, I started imparting of my knowledge of the subject. And by the end of our trip, all of my friends were like, "Amanda, you have to do this. You have to change your niche. This is what you were truly meant to do. We have learned more from you in a weekend than we have in 15 years of marriage." And I was very hesitant at first. Sex can be a very scary topic for some people. I come from a background... A very private background. My parents are very private people.03:48 DANIEL: Very.03:49 AMANDA: I've never been that way. I'm always been an open book. But respecting where I came from and stuff, I understand that it can be a very scary subject for a lot of people to talk about. But it is something that I am very comfortable talking about. I feel very comfortable in that space and really want to help women love their sex life and embrace that so that they can not only enjoy their marriage more, but truly embrace who they are as a person. And I think it helps them come closer to themselves, to their spouse, and to their heavenly parents.04:20 DANIEL: I think it's impressive as I listen to your podcast. It's one thing to be a coach or even a therapist and work with people with sexual health issues, another have this ability to talk about the very sensitive, private, taboo topics in a way that's very comfortable. And that's one thing I immediately appreciate listening to your podcast. You could say things like vagina, clitoris, masturbation. The one episode I was listening to, I think it was orgasms. And the way you presented the information, you even talked about how using masturbation is a healthy part of discovering yourself. The way you presented it was very impressive. It's very difficult within our culture to even use the word masturbation. You pointed out it's a dirty word, and it triggers a lot of people.05:04 AMANDA: Well, I have to attribute a lot of that to you, Daniel. I listened to a podcast you were on, I think it was maybe the Mormon Marriages podcast, and mainly...05:11 DANIEL: Oh, with Nate Bagley and his wife?05:13 AMANDA: Yes. And it really opened up my eyes to a different way of looking at things. And then, I really started doing a lot of my own research and thoughts and prayer about it to be a lot more open-minded about it.05:26 DANIEL: Thank you. It's been quite a journey, but today's podcast is not about me. I relate to you a lot, just I didn't realize you had this background with your divorce. It sounds almost parallel to my experience. I'm assuming you probably already know. But it sounds like we were even divorced at probably about the same time. And I met my wife shortly before my divorce, and we knew we were gonna get married within months after my divorce was finalized. And so, in my journey, I made the stupid decision of jumping back into school and getting into therapy, and that was... It's difficult. And I knew it was gonna be hard, but I value and appreciate the weight of that journey, and I've been very open and vocal about life coaching and the concerns I have around it. You have something that most coaches don't have, is an actual certificate. You're a certified professional life coach. And I think that's important because one of the things of working with people, especially with this type of subject, is you really gotta understand your boundaries, professionally, ethically, and what the client's responsibility is and your responsibility is. And I think that adds an additional level of safety in the relationship.06:37 DANIEL: And so, very good for you. I admire you for doing that, because you're right. I can't tell you how many people I've seen in our position, try to go back into, or at least pursue therapy as a career, and they have to stop after four or five years because it's gotten too expensive, and the barrier to entry is just ridiculous. And that's why I don't say life coaching is not an option. I think it is definitely an option. In fact, I hire life coaches, and I worked as a life coach for a while. But back to what you do, I love this. So, you're presenting a message of safety to these women and you're giving an example that they haven't seen before. When you say you did a divorce right, I totally understand what you mean by that. No divorce is easy, by any means. But they were pursuing you. What did you notice? What was maybe a common theme or pattern that you saw in the people who were seeking your advice? Kind of a big question there, but what would you sum it up, or did you see any patterns, or was it kind of all over the place?07:33 AMANDA: It's really all over the place. Everybody comes to the table with different issues. Their spouse comes to the table with different issues. And it's just really helping them see how they're interpreting the situation, the story that they're telling themselves, and how that's giving them the results that they're getting in their marriage. I worked with women who were really struggling with their sexuality, I worked with women whose husbands had issues with pornography, I was working with women who have had issues with infidelity in their marriage. And some, they were just unhappy because their husbands weren't living up to what they thought husbands should be, what they thought their spouse was supposed to be, the needs that their spouse was supposed to be meeting in them, and just teaching them how to meet those needs for themselves and just letting their partner be them and choosing to love them anyway.08:22 DANIEL: That's a big one, and one that I don't think even a lot of therapists embrace. Maybe that's not a fair statement. Maybe don't value or understand a lot. We get couples into the therapy room, and we focus on better communication. And those things are important. But I like what you're saying here. And I wanna inquire a little bit more about that, and focusing on the individual and their needs. And I've heard that in a few of your podcasts, the need to turn to yourself and understand what your needs are. Tell me a little bit more about your journey there and how you came to that conclusion.08:54 AMANDA: Well, we all have issues, we all come to the table with baggage. And really, being able to look at yourself and see what you're bringing to the table and how you're contributing to your relationship. Are you being needy? Are you being demanding? Are you being... And they stem from all sorts of issues from your background, but you're showing up in a way that's creating the relationship that you don't want. And so, really taking a look at how your thinking is creating that result for you, creating that relationship for you, and what you can do differently even if your spouse never changes. And sometimes that means making hard decisions. Sometimes, that means setting boundaries, walking away, whatever that is for you. But looking at yourself first, not, "How do I change him?" It's, "How do I change me? How do I get comfortable with myself in this situation, no matter how my partner shows up?"09:54 DANIEL: That's a huge concept. [chuckle]09:56 AMANDA: Yeah, it is.09:56 DANIEL: Big. And I'm curious if you get any push back on that?10:00 AMANDA: For sure.10:00 DANIEL: How do you deal with that? Let's get a little bit more specific here. I think there's this danger, and you pointed out in one of your podcasts is, "Are you blaming me for my spouse's behaviors then?" And that's usually how that phrase is taken. It's like, "Focus on yourself. See what you're doing to contribute to the problem or the issue." How do you navigate that?10:19 AMANDA: Well, it's individual. It really just depends on how they're thinking about it. What I say to all of my clients is, every problem is a thought problem. It's just how you're choosing to think about it. Or, you're believing what your brain is offering to you without questioning it. If you wanna believe something, believe it with intention, not just because that's what's offered to you. One I hear a lot is, like, "My spouse plays way too many video games. I'm sick and tired of him neglecting me, neglecting the house, neglecting the kids, because he's busy playing video games." And this could be a variety of things. It could be watching sports or looking at pornography, or whatever it is. It's his behavior. Well, how are you choosing to think about it? How are you contributing to that situation? One, you can choose to think that it's not a problem. That's totally up to you. But you can also choose to think it is a problem, and then what are the results of that? And are you okay with that? Is that serving you? If it's serving you, go ahead and keep thinking about it. But if it's not, then you can look at what you want to purposely think instead that might change that dynamic.11:25 AMANDA: Try to look at it from his point of view. Maybe he's had a long day at work, and this is how he knows how to unwind. Maybe he's doing that too much and you just need to have a conversation about it. But are you having that conversation in a blaming way, like, "You shouldn't do this," or you're saying, "This is what I see, and this is how it's affecting me. This is how I feel"? And be confident enough in yourself to be able to say those things.11:49 DANIEL: I really appreciate that. I use this example and I appreciate it as an example because we focus on the wrong problem a lot. And when I work with clients and they say, let's go with this example of, "He's gaming all the time. And he won't listen to me, he won't get off. He's absorbed with it." And what the discussion starts to evolve around is, how much he's gaming. But that's not really what we want. We want his attention. And so, I will often say, "Tell you what, let's try this experiment. Why don't you stop talking about the... Don't ever bring up the gaming anymore. And you walk into the house after getting the kids or coming home from work, and you see him gaming with his headphones on or whatever he's doing, and tell you what, why don't you do something a little bit different and go up to him, hug him in a way that's not distracting him but letting him know that you're there, and say, 'I would really love to spend a few minutes with you. I miss you'? And watch how that changes." Now, often, people will... They'll come back and they'll say, "He didn't listen to me."12:55 AMANDA: Keep doing it.12:56 DANIEL: No, keep doing it, day after day. Create a new sense of predictability. I think a lot of couples, depending... Especially if they've been in this rut for so long, it's like, "I'm not trusting that behavior. Where is that coming from?" It becomes a little bit suspicious. "You're actually focusing on me and not the games. Are you just trying to manipulate me?" But we give the gaming, or whatever that problem is or that distraction, all the attention. And it no longer becomes about each other. It's about ending this. As though taking that behavior away will then create a healthy behavior.13:28 AMANDA: Well, so I talk a lot about, like, "Who do you want to be in this situation? Do you wanna be the nagging, controlling wife? Or do you want to be the wife who's loving and compassionate and trying to create that connection with your spouse?" Because really, that's what's happening. You're not getting that connection that you want. He's getting the connection through gaming, or whatever. He's getting what he thinks he needs, but he probably rather get it from you, if you're offering it in the right way.13:55 DANIEL: It's interesting, as I listen to you speak, you're definitely using language, I think you have an advantage as a woman working with female clients. I don't know if I could ever get away with saying, "nagging." "Stop nagging your husband."14:05 AMANDA: [chuckle] Yeah. Women nag, I can say that. We nag. Yeah.14:09 DANIEL: [chuckle] Yeah, that's very good, that's very difficult to do, and be able to focus on the positive behavior. I always call it, "What's the desired outcome?" And they'll say, "Stop the game." No, that's not the desired outcome. The desired outcome is, "I wanna feel closer. I wanna feel connected." Then, let's make that...14:29 AMANDA: Let's make that the goal.14:30 DANIEL: Not the ending. 'Cause really, if your husband... And let's exaggerate a little here, for example's sake. If he's gaming 12 hours a day, but he's providing a living and you feel totally connected to him, is the gaming really a problem? "No, I feel totally connected to him." So, it's not really the gaming. I realize it's an exaggerated example, but usually, is the case. So, excellent, I love that approach. So, tell me a little bit more about how you work with the sexual topic. I know when I first did this, it was... And I appreciate the compliment that you got it from me, but when I first did this, and I've shared this story before. My first blog post was a couple, maybe three years ago, about masturbation, my infamous, seven series blog posts. I remember when I clicked post, I was shaking. I was afraid of how people would perceive me and just the whole cultural phenomenon around that. And so, it took me quite a few years to get to that point where it was even comfortable to say out loud, even with clients. Masturbation. I'm constantly managing that sensitivity around that issue. How do you feel like you've taken that journey and getting comfortable with engaging in those topics with people?15:48 AMANDA: It's just kind of who I am. I'm...15:51 DANIEL: Oh, really?15:51 AMANDA: I think it's become more and more comfortable, but it's never been something that I've really had a problem talking about, body parts and saying vulva and vagina and clitoris and penis. That's never been an issue for me. But that's not how I was raised, so...16:10 DANIEL: Yeah, you were saying you were raised in a very private home.16:13 AMANDA: Yes, very. Very private. So, it's just something that I feel like... I almost feel like it's a gift that I've been given. And that's part of the reason... When I started coaching a year-and-a-half ago, I don't know that I would have been ready at that point to discuss these sexual topics in the nature that I do now and become a sex coach. [chuckle] But now, I'm stepping into my own, that is who I am, and I can see that very, very clearly. And I feel very prompted. I bring prayer and the Spirit very much into every podcast that I do and all of my coaching sessions. I pray about what I'm supposed to be podcasting about that week, and I feel very prompted onto what those topics are supposed to be. And so many times, when I listen to those promptings, the words just flow. And so, I just learned to recognize that this is who I am, this is who I was made to be, and I'm just really stepping into that, and as I do so, my Heavenly Father is blessing me more and more.17:26 DANIEL: I appreciate hearing that. I think one of the collateral damage of work in my type of profession is being hyper-sensitive to people's concerns and not wanting to offend or come across as unempathetic. And I think sometimes that's a detrimental in the sense that I forget my personality in that because I'm so focused. And it's interesting because it's almost like a marriage in a sense, because if I lose myself in that work and that other person, I forget the gifts that I bring. So, that's a really good reminder to me, I appreciate hearing that. And being myself, I think, I've talked about this, written about this, is, I'm gonna say dumb things and I'm gonna say things that are incorrect.18:12 AMANDA: Totally.18:13 DANIEL: I'm dyslexic in my communication, as you probably already can tell, but if I focus more on a fear on not being truthful to myself and offending somebody else, I lose that power in that message. And so, that's a great reminder.18:28 AMANDA: We can't control what other people are thinking, so no matter what we say, people could be offended. [chuckle] So, I would rather just be true to myself and true to who I know I'm supposed to be, and let them worry about them.18:40 DANIEL: We call that differentiation in therapy, and that's a powerful concept and very difficult for a lot of people to embrace. I've discovered, as I've tried to bring that to the table, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this is, as you teach clients how to differentiate and to be an individual, is that scary for them? What's their experience like?19:01 AMANDA: Yeah, I always tell clients it's gonna get worse before it gets better.19:05 DANIEL: What do you mean by that? I think I know what you mean.19:07 AMANDA: Yeah, so when we start showing up differently, the dance changes. We've been doing this dance with our partner, with ourselves, even, for a very long time, and when we start showing up differently, the people around us, and not just our spouse, but our parents, our children, our friends, are like, "Woah, what's happening here? This is not normal." And they're like, "I don't know how to do this dance, I don't know how to respond." But eventually, most the time, they get the hang of it. If we just...19:35 AMANDA: You create a new normal...19:36 AMANDA: You create a new normal. So, I have a client who... She was definitely... Well, she says, "Being controlled," by her spouse. Really, she was letting herself be controlled. We know that it's not... They're not controlling, you're letting yourself be controlled. So, once she learned to step into her own, her spouse was like, "No, this is not happening. I run... This is what I do." And she was like, "Sorry, this isn't the way it's happening." And now, they've figured out this new dance and things are so good, so good. They've learned to give and take more, and she's willing to really say what she's thinking and not be afraid of his response. And he wasn't abusive or mean, or anything, it was just like, "I'm the man. This is the way it's gonna be". And she...20:26 DANIEL: It was his role.20:28 AMANDA: It was his role. And she's like, "Sorry, that's just not gonna work anymore". And it was really rough for a long time, but then he's like, "Okay, this is the new normal. Okay, I can see how this is actually beneficial for both of us. Okay, this is working. Yeah, okay, let's keep doing this, let's do it, let's do this dance now." And it's so much better.20:48 DANIEL: That is so wonderful to hear from you because I think there's a concern when we... When we look at these relationships, we have a difficult time in general. I'm not just talking about life coaches or therapists, is someone has to be bad and somebody has to be good. And so, when we look at these situations I think we have to be very, very careful. And you demonstrated that right now, is where we have... Let's go with this example of the wife coming in, saying, "I'm being controlled." And then, you reframe it to, "You're allowing yourself to be controlled," which is a big concept and a little scary, as you see. But then, the husband's response in this is, "No, this isn't gonna happen." We tend to stereotypically identify that as a manipulative person. But you had this insight is, "Well maybe this is just his training." He's not trying to be a bad person, as you clarify. He wasn't abusive, but his behavior, the way he was raised as an individual, this is his communication style and he doesn't know how to get out of it, so we need to help him out of it. It's not because he's a bad person. But he just doesn't know how to do it.22:00 AMANDA: But he didn't come to coaching, he didn't go to therapy. It was only her. But by her changing the dynamic and changing the way that she was showing up in the relationship, changed the relationship.22:12 DANIEL: Yes, and that's huge. Good clarification there. And you were able to create that change through her.22:18 AMANDA: And it wasn't me creating the change through her, it was her creating the change through her.22:22 DANIEL: But even in that situation... In fact, it could be even more risky, because we could look at this, we don't know the husband, we don't know his behavior, it could become an easy out and say, "He is abusive. You need to get away from him."22:33 AMANDA: Well, you can, but we talk about that and we talk about healthy boundaries, what those look like. When he starts exhibiting more control, maybe using some language that violates one of those boundaries, then you say, "Hey, that's not okay with me. If you wanna keep using that language, that's totally fine, but I'm gonna go, I'm gonna leave the room. I'm gonna leave the house for a couple of hours. I'll come back when you're ready to talk about it again in a better manner," I guess.23:00 DANIEL: I notice on your website, and it sounds like you work exclusively with women, but do you ever work as a couple?23:06 AMANDA: Yeah, I've worked with couples, I've worked with just men.23:08 DANIEL: Okay, so it's not just women.23:10 AMANDA: No.23:11 DANIEL: But that's your primary audience.23:13 AMANDA: Yes.23:13 DANIEL: So, along this line of thinking, you extend this idea of, "You need to take responsibility in your relationship for your own behavior and how you perceive things and create a new healthy or a new normal." You push this idea into intimacy. And I think it was that same podcast I was listening to is, "When sex is requested, say yes."23:36 AMANDA: It's the Nike approach. Just do it.23:38 DANIEL: Just do it.23:38 AMANDA: Say yes to the sex. That's what I say.23:40 DANIEL: And you addressed the concerns around that in the podcast, but tell me a little bit more because there is a risk there. How do you create healthy boundaries in an environment where you're saying yes to sex whenever requested?23:52 AMANDA: Yeah, so of course there's gonna be abuses taken, but what I'm talking about is more just in a good healthy relationship, where a lot of women are just not in the mood, so they're not... They don't wanna do it whenever their husband wants. And I'm really encouraging them to cultivate that connection and that desire within themselves, so that when their husband approaches them, they're ready, they want it too. And the more that they cultivate that within themselves, the more they start to crave it themselves.24:28 DANIEL: Is there ever a time to say no?24:29 AMANDA: Yeah, I've had women who, like, "Well, what if my husband is wanting sex as I go out the door and I need to be somewhere?" I'm like, "Okay, that's not gonna work. But you don't say, 'No, we're not having sex right now,' you say, 'Hold that thought. Let's do it later. I gotta run here.'" So, you're not saying no, you're saying yes, but let's do it later, when it's a little bit more convenient.24:51 DANIEL: You're focusing on the desired outcome. I love it.24:54 AMANDA: Yeah. Another one was like... And this is... Sorry, maybe too much for you, but women are like, "Well, can I say no when I'm on my period?" I'm like, "Well, that's a boundary... "25:03 DANIEL: Not too much here at all.25:05 AMANDA: "That's the boundary you can set for yourself." "Yes, I will say yes to you when I'm not on my period." But I will push you a little bit further and say, "It is totally fine for you to have sex while you're on your period, you just have to make some adjustments. Get a towel. It might be a little messier. Use a menstrual disk so that you can... " There are options. It's just, what are you willing to do for that?25:28 DANIEL: As I said at the beginning, we're gonna meander here. I love having just casual conversation. Let's explore that a little bit more there. I've actually, and maybe it's just being a man, I'm seeing a different perspective here, but I'm curious what you're seeing. Usually, I hear the man doesn't wanna have sex while the wife is on her period. Are you seeing it the other way around, where usually it's the women or is it...25:50 AMANDA: I see both. In my, "say yes to the sex challenge", if the man is saying, "I wanna have sex and I know you're on your period," then what is your hold up? What barriers are you putting into play? Just like, "Oh, I can't do it because I'm on my period," or like, "Is there really a problem?"26:09 DANIEL: Excellent, excellent insight there. I love it. So fascinating. So, what is the maybe biggest obstacles to intimacy that you're seeing for women?26:22 AMANDA: Guilt. Shame. Not knowing their body.26:25 DANIEL: Guilt and shame around what?26:28 AMANDA: I think the cultural dialogues that they've had in their youth, that their sexuality is something that needs to be repressed and is evil and is going to take them to hell, and then all of the sudden expecting that to be different when they're married. And not understanding that we should not be repressing sexuality as teenagers. We should be learning to manage it. And so, now that you're an adult, you've gotta figure out how to manage it as an adult. And that means not continuing to suppress it, and that means doesn't going crazy but learning how to manage it as an adult manages things.27:06 DANIEL: Wow. How does one go about eliminating that guilt? That's...27:11 AMANDA: Figuring out where it comes from, what the thoughts are, and just retraining the brain on... A lot of what I get is women saying, "I feel dirty. I feel un-virtuous. I feel like Heavenly Father is going to be mad at me."27:28 DANIEL: Wait, wait, wait. Are you talking about about when they're having sex with their spouse?27:30 AMANDA: Yes, when they're having sex with their spouse, that it creates all of this guilt and shame that somehow their Heavenly Father is looking down on them for not using sex only for procreation. For a lot of them, it's okay to procreate, but for fun and enjoyment and being closer to their spouse, not okay.27:48 DANIEL: This is actually something that I've discovered more and more. I think I knew it before, but I didn't realize how deep it ran. I knew it did with me, but for maybe other reasons. But this concept, if you noticed in the group and maybe you saw are common, with the new interview, temple-recommended interview questions came out. And the questions around the law of chastity where you're striving to have morally clean thoughts. And some... And this is not to point out anybody or criticize or shame in any way, but a few people were actually saying, "How do I answer that question when I'm desiring sex with my husband?" Or something to that effect. And so, they equated this idea that sex, even with your eternal companion, is dirty and can't be experienced emotionally or mentally.28:35 AMANDA: Or having thoughts about having sex with your spouse is dirty. And yeah, I just... I'm like, "No." And I tried to tell this as much as I can and try to help women understand, like, "This is what's supposed to be happening. This is what your Heavenly Father wants for you. He gave you an entire organ just for your pleasure. It's not... He wants you to be having fun. He created your brain to need novelty and newness and dare we say dirty thoughts to get aroused with your spouse." Now, sometimes minds wander, and that's fine too. But if you're not turning away from your spouse to do that, if you're turning towards your spouse, even if your mind is going a different direction, good on you. That's what's supposed to be happening. This is how your brain was created. This is what your Heavenly Father wants for you. Just changing that dialogue, I think, is so needed, and that's what one of my main messages is. It's like, let's just change this dialogue a little bit. All of these things that you've heard or you heard as youth or you're reinforcing to yourself now, you're interpreting, there's a different way to think about things, and I just want you to open up your mind to that possibility.29:47 DANIEL: Yeah. What a wonderful idea there. That concept of guilt runs so deep and we start to bring so many different perspectives into the bedroom. And...29:58 AMANDA: Oh, for sure.29:58 DANIEL: We gotta get the Bishop out of the bedroom, we've gotta get our culture out of the bedroom. And how do we do that? 'Cause it crushes sex. Do you see... When a client of yours is able to embrace that idea and start to re-map their brain in how they think about this, what do you see happen to their sexual arousal or desire?30:19 AMANDA: It goes way up.[chuckle]30:22 DANIEL: It seems like I led right into that...30:23 AMANDA: Way up, yeah. This has happened with quite a few clients, but I usually see them creating, cultivating that more within themselves. And it just... It makes everything better. I have a little theory here that the anxiety that so many women have is really just that they're sexually frustrated. And I would love to do some sort of study on this. I gotta try and figure it out. But I really think that they don't understand their body well enough to know that they're actually craving it, and they need it. And if they would just let their body do what it was made to do, quit putting on the brakes all the time and just let it run, it would be so much better for every aspect of their life. They would be a better wife, they would be a better mother, they would be a better friend, they would be a better worker. Every single aspect of their life would be better. And I have seen that for myself. I've seen it in my clients. It happens almost every time. Unless there's some sort of sexual trauma, abuse or something that needs to be worked through, and that's not something I do. I turn that over to the professionals. I can work with a therapist when it comes to that, but that's not something that I personally work on, that's out of my scope. But unless there's that there, it's just women putting on the brakes when they don't need to put on the brakes.31:50 DANIEL: Yeah. Have you ever seen... And I appreciate the clarification around the trauma, and I think that's very important to... And thankful that you refer out for that stuff. And I think that it's important to understand too, it's not for everyone to approach it this way. I'm curious if you've ever seen where somebody is working on their guilt and they start to experience their desires in a way that they've never done before. Have you noticed any of them actually get scared of that desire?32:17 AMANDA: Yeah.32:18 DANIEL: Tell me a little bit about that.32:19 AMANDA: Their brain is doing this, like, "I want it, but I can't." And they're just fighting it constantly, and so, it's causing all this friction that they don't understand.32:28 DANIEL: They can't what? They can't have it or... Oh, because it's bad.32:31 AMANDA: It's bad. They shouldn't. But helping them retrain their thinking so that, like, "No, this is a good thing. This is what I was created for. If I can embrace this, my Heavenly Father can give me even more of His Spirit and His blessings. He can bless my relationship, my marriage, even more when I can open myself up to everything that I was created to be."33:00 DANIEL: I've even heard female clients say... I wanna represent it correctly. I think it was, "I don't... " As they're starting to feel this arousal and this orgasm come on, I've heard a handful of them say, "I don't deserve this." It's very self-shaming language. I'm not exactly sure what they're experiencing as a female, and that... 'Cause I know for a lot of men is like, "Yes, we're creating that experience." So, what is this dynamic they're feeling?33:32 AMANDA: I talked about it a little bit in my last podcast, that we...33:37 DANIEL: Was that 77 or... Which podcast was that?33:39 AMANDA: 78, I think. We're told in the proclamation of the family that we're nurturers. We are responsible to nurture our husbands and our children, and we've turned that into, "We need to be self-sacrificing."33:52 DANIEL: That's the language they use. "It feels selfish to have an orgasm." [33:55] ____, yes.33:57 AMANDA: Yes. Yes. And so, they don't feel like they can have that for themselves, because if they do, then they aren't fulfilling their eternal role as a nurturer. And what I say is, "You need to nurture yourself first." Sex isn't about the culmination of a man having an orgasm. That is not what sex is about. And when it comes to sex, yes, you want to take care and nurture your spouse, but you need to make sure that you are taken care of and nurtured for yourself as well. You and your arousal and your feelings and your primary responsibility. It is not your spouse's responsibility to give you an orgasm, it is your responsibility to get yourself in a place where that can happen.34:40 DANIEL: Wonderfully said. And I'm gonna link the listeners to the specific podcast that I'm referencing, we're referencing, in this podcast. But tell me a little bit more about that. I think it was in the orgasm podcast, again, that learning yourself, even through masturbation, it's not just about stimulating your clitoris. Tell me, do you recall what I'm talking about? Tell the audience more about self-exploration, what's involved with that?35:06 AMANDA: Yeah. So many people think that orgasm is the end goal. And really, it's about connection, but it's also about pleasure. So really, understanding how you personally experience pleasure, that can probably get you to orgasm, but understanding your body... We have erogenous zones all over our body. I love that Friends episode. [chuckle] I don't know if you remember that, but I'm sure some of your listeners probably do. The seven erogenous zones. We have so many places on our body that can experience pleasure. And so, if we tune into our body and really understand how we personally experience pleasure, then we are much more able to have that experience and cultivate that within ourselves. Whether that's, we are understanding how we can touch ourselves, or how we can guide a partner to touch us. It doesn't have to be masturbation. You don't have to pleasure yourself to the point of orgasm. It's just understanding what feels good to you, and then, being able to replicate that, either with a partner or on your own.36:17 DANIEL: We refer to this as sensate focus therapy. Touching and even dragging your fingers across your skin, and just becoming present with yourself. And I really valued how you approached this topic in that podcast, and that you're even sharing with the audience. Consider things you haven't considered before, like anal stimulation. And that may seem dirty, but even that concept of it feeling dirty or not even considering is self-shaming and not really considering what your body can or should do or would like to do. You're silencing your body and not actually paying attention to it. And so, in this senate experience, touching yourself all over, your nipples, your anus, your vagina, your arms, everything.37:04 AMANDA: Everything.37:05 DANIEL: Discover what you like and how it resonates with your sexual self.37:10 AMANDA: Yeah, and so, I actually... And I couldn't offer this, and I'll give you a link to put in your show notes. I offer a free worksheet, a download, where it guides a woman through different body parts and how those body parts like to be touched. And it's just... I call it the roadmap to personal pleasure. Really figuring out what pleasure feels like for you. It can be done alone, it can be done with a partner, both, either. You can do whatever you want with it. It's just a guide to get you thinking and get you started.37:47 DANIEL: Amanda, I gotta have you back on, 'cause I would love to continue to poke and prod your knowledge, and I could go on for hours like this. Anything that you would like to... I think you shared a lot here, but anything you'd like to leave the audience with, before we wrap up?38:03 AMANDA: I would love for you guys to follow me on Instagram @amandaloudercoaching. My podcast is called Live From Love. That's what I believe this life should be, that if we live from a place of love, we're not only honoring ourself, but we're honoring everybody else around us, and that's the best place to be.38:20 DANIEL: Amanda, thank you, thank you so much for your time.38:23 AMANDA: You're so welcome, Daniel, thanks for having me.

In this Best of Episode we help Daniel decide if he's expert enough to start his online business. This episode was originally published on July 10, 2018.  You can check out the original episode here:  http://flippedlifestyle.com/podcast212 FULL TRANSCRIPT Jocelyn: Hey, y'all!  On today's podcast, we help Daniel decide if he's expert enough to start his online business. Shane: Welcome to the Flipped Lifestyle podcast where life always comes before work.  We're your hosts, Shane and Jocelyn Sams. We're a real family who figured out how to make our entire living online.  And now, we help other families do the same. Are you ready to flip your life?  Alright, let's get started. What's going on everybody?  Welcome back to the Flipped Lifestyle podcast, it is great to be back with you again this week!  Super excited to have another member of the Flip Your Life community on the show today. I've been looking forward to this specific interview all week, and you're going to learn why here in just a minute. Jocelyn: I'm pretty sure he's talked about it like every single day.   Shane: Every single day.  I'm so pumped up right now to welcome Daniel Hulsman to the show.   Daniel, what's up man?   Daniel: Hey, how you guys doing?  It's really good to be out here and talking to you both!   Jocelyn: We are pumped to have you here, as Shane has mentioned.   Shane: I am super pumped to have you here! Jocelyn: Shane loves telling stories, so I'm just going to let him take it away.   Shane: Alright, here's how Daniel and I got together, okay? Jocelyn: Something I should know?   Shane: No, no.  This is a G-rated show, Jocelyn.  Alright, so Daniel sent me an email during a recent launch.  A few weeks ago, we opened the doors to the Flip Your Life community and started giving everybody out there a month for free.  Daniel apparently heard this and signed up and you know, and he went through a couple of the emails and things like that. He had not joined yet, he had not joined the membership yet.  So, I wake up one morning, and I get this email because yes, we check our emails, okay. And I get a message and the first line -- what was the subject line on this? Daniel: I'm just shaking my head over here.   Shane: I know, right.  There was some hater-ade in this email, people.  This is a critique, is what I'm about to show you, I'm not going to read the whole thing.  But Daniel's sends me this email and says two things -- a little smug Daniel, I'm not going to lie -- but it said two things: "One, your customer service link in this email leads to a 404 page.”  So that is not a good sign when somebody pointing out a broken link. Jocelyn: When your email starts like that it's probably not going to go too good. Shane: And he made the emoticon, it wasn't even the Emoji.  He actually used the type of symbols of a smiley face with a tear.  That's sad, guys, we're supposed to have all this together, right?  And then he goes on with this giant block text of paragraph about just all sorts of stuff he didn't like in our marketing and things like that, but here's what drew me in.  Are you ready for this Daniel? This is the turn to the positive, this is the turn to the light side of the force. Daniel: (sighs) Shane: So he's critiquing all of our sales techniques and blah, blah, blah, and I just heard all of this skepticism in all of this stuff.  And then he said, "And you gave me a heart attack on Episode 200 when you said goodbye because I did not want your podcast to go away.”   So that's where the turn was and it says, "You are changing lives of people like me who want a better life for their families.”  I read every word of this email and it was really long, and that's the point where I was like, man, I saw something there. I was like, “This guy wants a better life.”  Then he went on to say, "I've been struggling to get my website off the ground for a few years, and your story inspires me to keep trying." So, all of that criticism, all of that critique, when I got to the end, I realized it was just frustration.  It was just a little frustration, a little skepticism, a little "Is this real?" and you've been doing this for a while, and I sent him a message back, my email.  I purposefully had to write more words than you did. Daniel: Oh, that was a good little novella.   Shane: Yes, yes.  There was some massive… this was a no-sugar soliloquy.   Jocelyn: Oh, now we're going to get tons of hate mail, so people will get to have--   Shane: Yeah, everybody will just send me hate mail now, like, "Shane will write me back if I do that!”  Here's what's funny though. This is the difference between me and Jocelyn. I was writing this email, and when I was doing it, Jocelyn was like, "Are you still writing that guy back?"  And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm still writing. I'm doing it!” Jocelyn: I'm trying to talk to him about stuff, and get things done.  And he's like, "No, no, no, I'm writing this email!” Shane: "No, Daniel is getting a message back from me.”   Jocelyn: I'm like, "Okay.”   Shane: I could have gone a thousand ways with this email.  I could have gone, "How dare you find my broken link.”   Daniel: Or just deleted it.   Shane: Or just deleted it and I could have just ignored it.  But I really just felt drawn, and there was potential there and you wanted something more, and that's what we're here for -- that's our mission.  So basically I won't read the whole soliloquy. Jocelyn: Please don't.   Shane: I won't, I won't.  I won't read this parable that I wrote you back.  But in the future book, it will come out. But my main point was, “Are you going to let a link that goes to a 404 page or a sales page hold you back, and are you going to look back again in a few years from now and say, ‘Man, I've struggled for a few years and I'm done,' or are you going to look back and say, ‘That was the moment I actually took action and took my next step.'” And I challenged you.  I just said, "Go join! It's free for 30 days.  You go look at every course we've got and you see if it doesn't move you forward.”  And I said, "Instead of critiquing our sales process, watch the magician's hands. You've been struggling for a few years, and we have it.  Maybe there's something there. Maybe there's something we're doing differently.” I've got to read what you sent me back. Daniel: Oh, yeah.  Please go ahead, I was angsty. There was a long time of just reflection before I sent anything back.   Shane: I jumped up, man, and you can ask Jocelyn.  I started going crazy and pumping my fist because I was so excited.  You sent me this message back, and it said, "I started to spend a few minutes, trying to think of a clever yet grateful response to your candid feedback--" and I like how you said 'candid feedback' because if anyone saw this message, it was pretty candid.   Daniel: Yeah.   Shane: And it says, "But I think I'll just shut up and get started instead.  Sounds like I've got some work to do. I just finished the form, I'm logging in, and when I get home, I'm printing your email and hanging it on my wall next to my computer.  Thank you for the much-needed kick in the (blank)!” So I just want to say, you're welcome for the boot print on the back of your pants. Daniel: Thank you, sir.   Shane: And I am so glad that you are a member of the Flip Your Life community now, and that we turned a critic into a customer.  After you followed up, and I saw what you have going in your business, I know that you've got a great, great potential to do something with it, okay, so Kudos to you, man.   Jocelyn: We love these kinds of stories so much because it's just awesome.  So many people want to point fingers at other people and say, "You're doing this wrong, you're doing this wrong.”  But most of the time it's more like a mirror. They're looking back at themselves, and thinking, "My life is not perfect either.”  None of our lives are perfect. So that's the cool thing about this, is that we're able to help each other and we don't just give up on people. I mean, if you were like a blatant hater or... Shane: There is a difference in a critic and a troll.  I was actually very thankful you found that link.  Before I wrote you back, I emailed our team and I said, "We've got to fix this link.”  That's how I started my email back to you, so I was actually really grateful that you sent email in the first place.  It helped us, and I wanted some reciprocity there to help you back. Jocelyn: And so we knew that we had to talk to you because of this crazy story, and we just love it when things like this happen, so thank you for being here today! Daniel: No problem.  And I'm sure my wife's going to get a real kick out of listening to this as well because when I finally told her that you had offered to speak with me this morning, she was like, "Why?!" And then I had to tell her the whole backstory.  And she's like, "I am a little surprised that you sent that email, but sounds like you deserved your response." Shane:  That is absolutely hilarious!  Jocelyn: Okay.  If we're being honest with ourselves, like everyone listening to this show, myself included, we've all done something like this.  This is not something-- we're not trying to pick on you and say like, "Oh, you shouldn't have done this or whatever." Shane: This is like when you get mad and you honk at somebody or give them a rude gesture on the highway for doing something you did a week ago.  It's all it is. I've seen so many emails like that. There's a difference between a troll, and a guy who's like, "Guys, I really like what you're doing and I'd love to have it, too.  And I think I could get it, but I'm frustrated, and nothing's just working and I'm just trying to vocalize that, and I don't know how to do it." Daniel: Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've been beating my head against a wall for years.  The whole way that I started my current website, I actually bought another course, a $500 course years ago.  I've been a longtime listener of that podcast, and I signed up. They're very adamant, don't skip any steps. As a good little soldier, I did all the steps and at the end I had ended up with this website and like a tiny little affiliate sale every now and then.  And a website that I felt was nice, but it was a website, it wasn't a business. I just didn't know where to go after spending all this time pouring myself into this and years later here I am still not sure how to course correct. Shane: Well, listen.  You're not the only person that's ever done that.  The next step is always the most frustrating step that never goes away.  We're sitting here figuring out our next step just like you are. It's just at a different level.  That frustration is part of the journey and hey, man, we'll get you past it, and let's get you to the next step and that's what we're here for so we can help you do that.   Jocelyn: The reason that we started this trial because we feel like there are so many people out there who are frustrated, and they don't know what to do next.   Shane: Or they've been burned by that $500 course in the past and nothing happened.  Like I got burned by a course like that! What happened in 2012, when I first started this, the first thing I discovered was Google ad marketing, like where you make a niche website that has like five pages and you put Google ads on it and the gurus all said you'd be a millionaire in six months.   Jocelyn: All that was before the big Google smackdown, they call it.   Shane: So I built a couple of these sites and, granted, it did make our first ad click, which was eleven cents that inspired us that it's possible to make money online.  But I'm paid a dime and a penny! If you can't pay my groceries with this thing, you can't even get the cart at Aldi! That's a quarter. For anybody that has an Aldi, you know what I'm talking about here, you can't even get the cart out at the grocery store for a dime and a penny.  But what happened was -- it's so funny-- I got frustrated, but once we figured that out, I bought another course about email marketing. I noticed, not that that guy was email marketing for affiliates.  I noticed that his email marketing was to sell his course on email marketing and he was selling his own product.  That was really the epiphany that we had was, it's not about partnering and JV Partnerships. That's cool, that's later.  It's not about affiliate links, it's not about ad clicks, it's not about Amazon and all that. You're not going to make any money that way.  It's about figuring out how you can serve other people, creating a product that solves their problem and that's what you promote. That may be the next step for you too.  Alright, so rewind! Jocelyn: That was a lot of information. Shane: It's still one of my favorite stories ever and it always will be, and I'm going to be so proud of you, not only because you joined, but I can't wait to see you succeed.   Jocelyn: I can't even express the joy that Shane had when you decided to join the membership. Shane: Oh my gosh, when you joined the membership, I was like, "That dude joined.  Holy cow, that's unbelievable!” Jocelyn: That's his mission in life.   Daniel: You know what it was.  It was the last line in your email.  It just went off on me and then at the end, the last time was just 'Finish', with a link back to the form that I didn't complete.  That was just the word that echoed in my subconscious until I did it. Shane: Oh yeah.  I see it now.  It just says 'Finish:' and then the form.   Jocelyn: I hope that, if nothing else from this story, I hope that people understand that we really do care about you and we want what's best for every single person listening to this podcast.  That's the reason why we do what we do. Yes, we are a for-profit business. We have to pay our bills, but we want everyone out there to succeed, and that's why we're offering this free trial.  So I hope that if nothing else, people understand that we really do want what's best for every single one of you. Shane: And I also realized too, there's a lot of movement out there.  People want to shut everyone out of their lives and all these gurus are like, "Well, if anyone hates you, delete them, and if anyone critiques you, screw them, and if anybody, whatever, whatever, whatever," but like man, 90% of the people that even send you feedback, they're just really asking you for some advice.   Jocelyn: And if somebody has taken their time to email you, even if it's something you'd really don't want to hear-- Shane: They care.  They at least care.   Jocelyn: They care enough to send the email.   Shane: Love it, hate it, but never ignore it, man.  Help somebody next time they send you a bad email, send them back and say, "You alright?  What's going on? Can I help you?" Jocelyn: That being said, please don't send us a lot of hate mail! Shane: I can read through the fake hate mail guys.  I know fake hate from real hate. Okay, so let's do it!   Jocelyn: Alright.  So before we get more into the story, let's go back just a little bit.  We want to know about you, your background, and what you have started so far online.   Daniel: Sure, so, by day, I'm a father.  I live in Boston and I am a full-time music teacher at an inter-high school in Boston.  I grew up in Delaware. Go Blue Hens! Our mascot's a giant blue chicken, really exciting!   Shane: We have a mascot in the Kentucky school called, “The Hilltopper.”  It's literally a red pile of dirt. That's what he is. The Hilltoppers and the Blue Hens can go to war.   Daniel: I don't even know what to say about that.  That's so strange. But you know, why not? Sure.  I graduated with my music education degree looking to be a music teacher, and then that was 2008 and then the economy crashed.  All the arts jobs disappeared so I had to kind of scramble and figure out something else to do. I ended up working for Apple for a few years doing B2B sales, and then I just started nerding out on online marketing stuff after reading the Four-Hour Work Week.  I ended up getting a job at a marketing software company called Hubspot. Worked there for a year before getting back into teaching.   So it's been kind of a bit of an eclectic journey professionally.  But then on the side of that, two years ago, as I said, I started, you know, I did an online course and at the end of that I had a website for video game composers because I love video game music and I've always loved to do games and stuff.   Jocelyn: Okay.  I need to just stop you right there because in your intake form, it says I manage-- Shane: 'Intake Form.' That sounds like he's getting up for parole, and your intake form-- "Your podcast application" would be better, probably. Jocelyn: On the podcast questionnaire, how's that?   Daniel: Perfect.   Jocelyn: Okay.  I just have to ask you about this because I don't know what this means.  Okay, it says, "I manage a choir that records professional video game soundtracks twice a year.” So let's back the truck up. Shane: That seems like the coolest job ever!   Daniel: Alright, sure.  So I ended up by networking in the Boston scene here, which actually there's an orchestra called the Video Game Orchestra in Boston and they started as a club out of Berkeley College of Music, and then they ended up becoming a full-blown professional orchestra that records the live music for video games.  I happened to meet and befriend the guy who runs that. Over a couple of years, just because he knew I was a singer, I ended up getting pulled into a choir to record a trailer for a game called, “Final Fantasy 15.” Shane: Are you kidding me?  You sang on Final Fantasy 15?! Daniel: I did.  I sang on the trailer, and then I sang on 10 tracks on the soundtrack.   Shane: Dude, I am so glad you wrote me hate mail! Jocelyn: Who gets this job?   Shane: Yeah, this is amazing.   Jocelyn: "Yeah, I sing on video games.”   Daniel:  It's a very fun thing to drop in a conversation.  I've got to admit. I mean, you know, it's very few and far in between, but the gigs are extremely fun.  I've just wrapped up a second one or our first one for the year. It's just a lot of fun. But the third grader in me is just elated.  Every time I go into the recording studio and get the recorded video game music, I got the music pumping into my headphones, and with the school to sing-- the instrument that I was trained on was voice.  And so it, you know, I'm really thankful for that because now I get to go and sing on video games. Jocelyn: My nine-year-old son would think this is the coolest thing ever.   Shane: Oh yeah, because he loves music, he loves video games.   Daniel: Then you know, he and I, we understand each other, then.   Shane: What's cool about this, too, man, is I can see where this is going.  One thing that people love about the Flip Your Life community, and once again there are needs for life coaches and business coaches, but everybody doesn't have to be one.  The variety of niches and our community is second to none. Like we have people, we talk about it all the time. We've got people doing everything you can imagine. Ninety percent of our people are doing something besides life coaching.   And you hear about this, I would never think, oh, there's a niche for video game music composing.  But even as you say this, we've got a member named Chris Greenwood, he goes by the name, Manafest. Really big Christian artist, awesome guy.  His songs, though, one of the ways that he markets his music is he licenses it for games and licenses it for movies. And now you're actually recording original tracks for things, so there are so many niche markets out there that you wouldn't think people would want to get into.  But then you're like, "Well, wait a minute, if you're doing it and he's doing it and somebody else is doing it, well, there are probably thousands of people that want to do it.  Right?" And uh, that's where this kind of came from. Jocelyn: Okay, so your site is about this video game music, correct.   Daniel: Yup, to help new and aspiring video game composers.   Shane: What is it called?  What's the domain name?   Daniel: VGMacademy.com Shane: videogameacademy.com, okay.   Daniel: You can go to either videogamemusicacademy.com, or you can go to vgmacademy.com, and it'll redirect you.   Shane: You actually own a three letter domain?   Daniel: vgmacademy.com Shane: Wow, that's really awesome that you have that, you know what I'm saying?  Because those are hard to get. Daniel: Well, it was kind of those dot academy ones, I wasn't that fast.   Shane: I got you, I got you, I got you.  Now tell everyone a little bit about where your community is, because you've actually built a community, an audience around this.  We've not monetized it yet, which is very common, right? So tell everybody else about the other assets that are around the website.   Daniel: Yeah, sure.  So I've got an email list that has got currently over 2,600 people on it, which I feel pretty good about that number.  I just obviously don't know what to do with it at this point. I've got a pretty sizable Twitter following of like 4,500 people or somewhere around there right now.  But my thing that I really liked the most at this point is that I've got a private Facebook group that has just reached 1,000 members.  It's like a no-spam, no-self-promotion zone for people to get in there and get questions and ask help, but also engage in anything that's going on with the website.   I've got a community challenge that I run over the summer.  So this is the second time I'm doing it, starting in a couple of days in July.  It's a 21-day challenge for composers to get in there, and just write something, even just like a little tiny something.  One little musical idea, just write something new every day for 21 days straight to make it a habit, and everyone goes in there.  Last year it was awesome! Everyone posted, you know, put up a graphic for each day. Shane: Is this free?   Daniel: Yeah, this is free! Yup! Shane: Do you make them opt in to get in the challenge?   Daniel: Yes.  Yeah. Shane: Okay, that's good.  Do you create content regularly on your website?  Like blogs or videos or anything like that? Daniel: I used to, but this past year, to be completely upfront and honest, I've just been kind of burned out and frustrated.  I feel like anytime I come back and pour energy into it, I feel like it's misdirected, or it doesn't really move the needle on anything.  So this past year, it's been pretty inconsistent. Shane: Listen, you have no idea what you've got in your hands.   Jocelyn: You're doing so many things right!   Shane: So many things right, so many things that other people can't even figure out how to do or won't figure out how to do.  Like how to do a challenge, how to opt in for it, how to get them in a private Facebook group. And your audience? I mean you have 2,500 emails.  Do you know how many people would drive to Boston and punch you in the face to steal 2,500 emails from you? You have this Facebook group with a thousand people, Twitter followers.  You have an audience that you've built! When Jocelyn and I launched our first product that did like thousands of dollars, we had less than 400 emails total, and it did like almost three grand in like the first week.  So you've got the people, you've got the thing, you've proven that people want this, and these challenges, you've proven that people will opt in. It's not a large stretch to just say, "Well, what if I charged for a challenge that got more involvement with me?" Jocelyn: Or at the end of my challenge, I'll give them their next step and I charge them for it?  Daniel, this is not hard! Shane: Yeah, you got this, man, dude.  I want to talk about two things, first, really quick is fears and obstacles.  Something's holding you back because you've got the tools in place. Jocelyn: What's going on inside your head that's saying, "I can't do this?   Shane: What are you afraid of?  What's the fear that's holding you back?   Daniel: The biggest thing is that I feel like-- and this is again a part of the result of that original course.  I ended up with a website and a community that's really looking for someone. In some ways at least I feel like I'm not qualified enough to take people to the next step that they want because I'm not a full-time working video game music composer.  I'm a music teacher. I know a lot of basics in terms of songwriting and composition. But in terms of like a lot of the technologies that people want help with the digital audio workstations, people can spend and waste countless hours of time diving into the audio technology and the audio engineering part of it.  And that's just something that's a huge time investment. I'm not able to become the expert on that as fast as I think I would need to be at this point. I feel like I'm in a lot of ways behind the ball of my audience in terms of the audio engineering component.  But that's the biggest thing: I kind of feel like in some ways I'm just not qualified. In other words, I think I am.  I think that I know a decent amount about marketing, I know a little bit about negotiating, which is something that comes up with freelancing.  So I got some transferable skills, you know, music theory and that kind of stuff. But I just don't know if I'm at a point where I have put myself in a position where I can be as helpful as I originally intended to be.  I think I have really big and ambitious dreams. But then becoming a parent, apparently you have a lot less free time and energy. So yeah! Shane: You have less time than the millennial on the beach in Thailand? Daniel: You know, believe it or not, I have a little less time than them, you know.  And that was the thing that shocked me. That was, I was definitely one of those, "I'm going to make it, I'm going to figure out how to manage this and make it work for me,” sort of people.  But then I had a kid that didn't sleep for two years. Jocelyn: Okay, let's push pause on that because that's a different issue.   Shane: Let's pause! Okay.  We've pulled out a fear and an obstacle.  The obstacle is kids that don't sleep on time.  We'll get to that in a minute. Now the fear is this: let me do a mock conversation for you here, okay.   I walk up to you and I'm like, "Oh man, I would love to compose music for video games.  Man, that'd be a cool job. I would love to do that, but Daniel, I think you could maybe teach me how to do that, but you know what?  Like I just want to make sure that you're even expert enough.” So then it comes back to you, "You look at them and say, 'Have you sang on Final Fantasy 15?' And that guy goes, 'No,' and you look at him and you say, 'I have.  Sit down and listen.'" Okay, so let me just dispel that: you're expert enough!  What you're trying to do is what a lot of people do: you think you have to know every single thing ever about your topic.  There are things that we don't know about online business. I meet with people that are very high level all the time in different spaces.  I'm in a mastermind group with some ballers and they're good dudes and we all do our businesses very differently and sometimes they say things and I can't even wrap my brain around it, what they're talking about.  But that's okay because I don't teach that thing even though it's still online business. What we teach is how to start, how to find an idea, how to get your website going, how to get your product created, how to get it out to market, how to start a membership site and create stable recurring income.   I don't know anything about JV partnerships and affiliate marketing, but I've got a friend who's made millions of dollars doing it, but I don't teach that.  I don't have to teach that and I don't have to go learn that. You don't have to learn all the digital audio mixing and stuff like that.  You could partner with someone who sells that and be an affiliate for them though, and then you could teach composition, negotiation, how to get the job, how to keep the job, how to make sure they call you back because you're getting called back.   You got to teach what you know and then point them to other people.  We don't teach people to do public speaking even though that's a big part of some brands.  Jocelyn and I, the only public speaking we do is at our own live events, we don't have time to go do all that other stuff.  But if I wanted to send someone to teach public speaking right now, I would send them to my friend, Grant Baldwin, The Speaker Lab, because he knows how to teach public speaking.  But I'm not going to go learn how to teach public speaking just so I can create a course about it, that doesn't make sense for us. Jocelyn: Let me tell you, and everyone who's listening, a secret.  And it's not really a secret. But you are not for everyone.  We are not for everyone. There are people out there who say, "You know what, I've grown my business and you know, I'm making a million dollars a year, and your stuff is beneath me.  Like I don't know how to get to the next level, and you're not going to be able to help me.” No, we're not, because that's not who we serve. Shane: I don't want to help you get to 10 million dollars a year.  Fine, you're a millionaire. You figured it out! You know what I mean?  Like that's not our point. Our mission is to help 100,000 people start their online business, and get to a point where they could have the decision to quit their job.  That's our mission is to help people start that journey. Our mission is not to take the person from a million dollars to 10 million dollars.  I'm not going to go try to figure that out. I'll leave that to somebody else. Same thing here, don't think you've got to teach all these other things.  I don't know the Video Game Music Act that requires you to have so many hours of certain degrees to teach people how to get into the industry. That doesn't exist.   Jocelyn: Let me tell you what this is, though.  This is you looking at yourself saying, "I'm not perfect in these ways, and I don't want someone to point out those flaws," and let me tell you how I know that because this is my everyday life.   Shane: Yeah, Jocelyn always does that.  We might have a deficiency. Like, one of the things that we struggle with is leading our team.  Jocelyn and I are very much like visionary, mud-on-the-wall, let's go, let's figure this out, and sometimes it's hard for us to pull back and lead our team.  But we have a really big team and we've got to actually go and sort this out. We have to be better. Jocelyn: It's just not something we enjoy doing.  Therefore, we don't want to do it. Shane: But we do share our struggles with our community.  We share our struggles on our podcast, and those struggles are just as valuable as someone who's got it figured out.  You could even talk about that. Listen, what if someone is a composer, and understands music because they went through music, and the band, and choir, and all these things, and they went to college, and they were vocal, and they learned how to sing.   What if the millions of people who do that never learned how to use these digital audio things?  And now you can say to them, “I don't have this skill, but I made it. I figured it out and I can help you do it, too!” Jocelyn: Do you know what the beauty of having a community for this is?  You don't have to know all the answers. You are surrounded by lots of other people who are interested in the same thing and guess what?  They might be strong where you're weak. It's just like our community. Like there are things that I'm not fantastic at, but there are hundreds of people inside our community, and a lot of them might have experience with it where maybe I don't.   That's the awesome thing, is that I can go in and say, "Hey, I've never done this, but our member, Kevin, has done this," or, "Our member, Karen, has done this.”  You know, I can pull out names of people who are an expert in this field and I don't have to be. So that is the awesome thing about doing that. Shane: That's one reason that we always say people come for the content, but they stay for the leadership in the community, because the leadership guides them to what things that leaders don't even know.  Like I can at least point to you the direction where you need to go, and the community fills in gaps of knowledge because if we have thousands of entrepreneurs in one place that are dealing with the three-year-old who doesn't sleep, that are dealing with the fear of being expert enough, that are dealing with how do I overcome this software plugin or whatever, then now we get to fill in the gaps and we get to work together and you can create that same dynamic.   You've probably seen this, I bet, in your community, haven't you?  Like people are talking about things and giving feedback that you didn't even think of and conversations and challenges. Have you seen that in your community? Daniel: Yeah, yeah! It's funny that you mentioned that because you know in a way I haven't needed to talk about the technical stuff in terms of the software in the Facebook group because a lot of times when people ask that question, which is not as often as I would've expected, but when those questions do come up, a bunch of people jump on them.   Shane: Exactly.  And that's why a community is really important in this kind of thing because what you have to do is say, “What CAN I teach people?  That's the most important question. “What problem CAN I solve?” And we so often get bogged down in the things that we can't solve.  "Well, I can't solve this for them. Well, I can't teach them this so I must not be sufficient," but you are sufficient. You are good enough and you are awesome at these things.   You have to make a bulleted list of “What Can I Teach Them?”  Well, I can teach them to the composure. I can teach them to negotiate.  I can teach them where to look for these gigs because you've probably got an idea of that, you know, you can teach them all those things.  That's what forms the basis of your content and then your leadership with coaching or community and things like that, that's going to guide them to the next step.  And that's what you are. You're a lantern bearer on a dark path, you're going down a path, you're showing them where to go. Jocelyn: You've already found the lantern.   Shane: That's right, you got it.  So you know where to go. You came back and got somebody else.  Now, you're taking them to where you were. And another thing I really sensed from you is you really want these people to do this.  Like, you know this is awesome, and these people want to do it. And you're like, "Man, I really would love for everybody to get to sing on Final Fantasy 15, right?" Daniel: Yeah, I mean, one of the biggest kicks I got doing this challenge last year was that, I was blown away by -- I was very clear with the community that I was really only looking for you to show up and write two to four bars of music a day.  A few seconds of music, a little idea. People really just created some really beautiful, some really awesome tracks, and a lot of them were doing full-blown, completed tracks almost every single day. That to me was a huge win. There was so much really great music that came out of it.  And I was just really happy! Jocelyn: But here's the problem.  You pumped the brakes, you gave them something awesome.  And he said, “Okay guys, see you next summer. We'll do this again.”  Daniel, stop it! Shane: You're like, "Look, I'd love to create a course, but I got to write some hate mail to Shane.  That's what I've got to do here." Daniel: I've got emails to write.   Shane: “I've got emails to write, y'all.  I know we're making great music, but I'm writing great copy here.”  I love your mission that poured out right there. Your mission is to help people write great music.  Your mission is to give them a doorway, an opportunity to go the next step. Your mission is not to teach them the mixer, teach them the thing, get them the job, all of that.  The first step that you can teach everybody is that you can do this. because you do it every day in your classroom, you do it every day in your group, you do it on all these challenges. You can teach people to make music that's changing their world, the people around them.  They're releasing new things into the world that never existed before, and then they have the opportunity to go the next step, And then they have the opportunity to learn the technology. And then they have the opportunity to apply for the job, but until they write that music, until it's released into the world, they don't have that opportunity.  Your endgame for them might be to do what you've done, but you have to help them get started and give them the opportunity. Jocelyn: And I'm going to tell you something.  I talked about this a few weeks ago on the podcast.  I feel like I can speak freely with you because, well, this whole podcast this week is kind of crazy.   Daniel: Yeah, it's free, pretty free.   Shane: There's been some free speaking.   Jocelyn: But here's the thing.  I talked about this, I think the 200th episode.  You are being selfish by holding this gift back, so stop it.  You have to do this. You owe it to these people who have a dream, who have something that they want to do, you're being selfish by not giving them the next step.   Shane: Your mission is not to get people a video game job.  That's a result! Your job is to help people unleash music that's inside of them into world through the conduit of video games.  I play Fortnight with my son. Daniel: Nice! Shane: Isaac and I play all the time.   Jocelyn: Not so nice for me.   Shane: Yeah, Jocelyn loses about an hour and a half a day of her life, so we play Fortnite together.  We play almost every day. I love the music at the beginning of Fortnite. I just love it, it makes me happy.  But going back before that, before I had kids, and right up when we had kids, I played Halo, that very famous game.  And I looked it up one day. Jocelyn: That music haunts me.   Shane: Yeah, the music haunts her.  It's not just the music. I looked it up one day and it keeps all your stats, and me, my brother, and my two best friends from high school, we lived far apart from each other when we were adults, right?  So Halo was a way that we got to connect every night. We got to get together for an hour before we had kids and we could actually play games and we got to connect virtually. When I hear Halo's music, I don't just think of the video game, I don't just think of the actual looked-up-in stats, ninety days of my life in actual hours, that I put into that game over a few years in Halo 3.  I don't think about that. I think of laughter, and I think of joy, and I think of all the good times and good conversations that I got to have with my brother who lived five hours from me, with my best friend who lived five hours from me.  Like that's what I think about. If that guy doesn't write that music that was the soundtrack of that game, then those memories don't happen and that nostalgia doesn't come back when I hear that music again.  That's your mission, bro! It's the help these people unleash music that can be used in these games, not only for them, but for all the people that are going to hear it. You've got no choice, man. You got to do this and you are expert enough. There is no degree, there's no certification that can make you more qualified for what these people need. Jocelyn: And I want to say, too, before we move on from this, think about people that you respect as leaders, just in everyday life, maybe in online business, every different area of your life.  Do you respect somebody more who is perfect and never makes mistakes, or somebody who says, "Hey, I don't know everything, but I'm going to help you. I'm going to do the best I can to help you get to the next step," and I feel like that's why people follow us because we're not perfect, we're not polished, we're just regular people who are trying to help other people have a better life.  So, who do you prefer to follow? Shane: Yeah, let me tell you a story about a guy.  This podcast may never end. We're going to talk for a while, we're just sitting back.   Daniel: This is my first day of summer break.   Shane: You're good.  Alright, cool, man.  Our kids are probably doing something right now.  I haven't seen them in about an hour, whatever. They'll be all right.  I can see the lake behind our house. So as long as they're not going into that, we're cool.   Okay, so I had a very influential man in my life who was a teacher of mine in high school.  He actually was what made me even consider being a teacher when I got a history degree because he was my history and political science teacher.   He really taught me a lot about how to argue politics, and think about deep issues and you know, look at both sides, and not be so hateful like everybody is on Facebook these days and all this other stuff.  He was very good at playing devil's advocate and arguing socratically. But that's not where he made the most influence in my life. I actually took a media class and I got to be the director and producer of our school news show when I was a senior in high school.  And I was a hoodlum! But when people see what I do now and my teachers, they're like, "Wow, you're not in jail! That's pretty amazing.”  And then when people see Jocelyn, like from her high school, they're like, "Why did you marry that guy? Because he had very great potential to go to jail.”  For him to give me a leadership position like that and give me that opportunity, it was amazing. I so appreciated it because he knew that I had a passion for the video editing, the audio editing, and the production of it.  I still have a passion for that stuff today with our podcast, with our videos and things like that. Here's why this story is so related to what we're talking about.  He took the media class because he liked the journalism aspect of it. He liked the telling stories aspect of it. He couldn't use a video editor. He could barely use a VCR.  We're going way back now. He didn't know which way to put the tape in the VCR.  It would've been upside down, inside out and he didn't understand how to use anything technology-wise.  And we had got a grant, and they had bought us all this video editing stuff. So this was like professional tape editing stuff back in the day, right?   Daniel: Yeah.  We had the same stuff.   Shane: Yeah.  So we go in and he's like, "Shane, you're the producer, you're the director.  So you've got to figure all this stuff out. I don't know how to do it, but I'm going to tell you how to organize the show.  I'm going to tell you how to lead your team. I'm going to tell you how to do this.” And we would sit in there.  I would remember me sitting at the station just slaving, I would stay hours after school.  I'd leave the school at like 8:00 in the night right after school. Loved it, editing the broadcast for the next day, and he never left me.  He was always right there beside me, and it's really emotional, thinking about it like right now, how much that changed my life because it kind of was a foundational thing for now, like what we do.   I always remember him just sitting there with his leg crossed, reading his newspaper and every once in a while, he'd look over and go, "Shane, how's it going?" Or I'd look back at him and say, "Hey, do you think this story should go before this story?  How should I edit this?" But I had to figure out the technology. He had no clue how to do it. But he taught me how to lead and he taught me how to put things in the right order and how to compose the show. And it didn't matter if he didn't know how to do the editing, and it doesn't matter if you don't know how to use the technology.   You're leading them and you're teaching them how to compose and you're pointing people in the right direction to figure it out.  He gave me the instruction manual. I just had to read it. And that's really what you're doing for your people is you're just leading them, and you're helping them compose and you're giving them the chance, the opportunity, and who knows what happens to those people 10 to 20 years from now?  That's up to them. You're going to give them the chance and they're going to pay you for it, and then some of them probably the minority are going to do something with it. It's going to be inspiring and it's going to be world changing, and that's going to be because you made the decision, "I am qualified to do this, and by God, I'm going to teach it.”  Okay. Whew!   Jocelyn: Whew! That was a lot of information.   Shane: Oh my gosh.  I'm sitting in here, teared up thinking about that guy, and how much it changed my life and it tears me up because I know we've changed lives, but not all of them, the minority because the majority can't cut it.  And if you're in the majority, you need to get over in the minority, if you're listening to this podcast. I know you can change lives and I know that everybody listening has something but they can do! All that guy did was sit beside me and read the newspaper, answer a question here and there.  He didn't answer every question. He answered maybe one question a day. We'd sit there for four hours together.   Daniel: And he just gave you the opportunity.   Shane: And he just gave me the opportunity, man.  That's what everyone listening to this podcast right now has to do, is release what you know into the world and give people an opportunity.   Jocelyn: Okay, Daniel, we have said a lot of words.   Shane: Which, for an introvert like Jocelyn, this was like triple the word count of the normal podcast.   Jocelyn: I know, my word count for the day is over, so I'm not going to be talking anymore.   Shane: Oh, yeah.  Now, my wife will not speak to me until tonight!  I know that she's going to go into her cave, watching Netflix and it's over.   Jocelyn: Okay, but in all seriousness, alright, how do you feel about all of the stuff we just said?  I know it was a lot to process, but how do you feel about that and how do you think that it can hopefully help you to move forward to the next step?   Shane: It's not what me and Jocelyn think your next step is.  It's, what do you think your next step is? Daniel: I think I need to stop trying to be everything and really focus on what I know.  As I was listening and I had been thinking about this and going through the content in the Flip Your Life community this week, I think what's kind of been slowly shifting to the surface is this idea that I know music theory, I know how to teach that.  I know how to teach the basics of composing a good tune. And that's something that is missing a lot in this niche. A lot of people go towards the technology and they go towards the audio engineering and spent hours and hours and hours and making a really basic thing sound really complicated and expensive but the music is forgettable, so it doesn't take it anywhere. So, I think I need to focus more on the piece that I know, and divorce myself from the piece that I don't need to focus on.   And then I guess in terms of specific steps, I need to come up with a core product offer I can lead people to.  Get them the end result of getting their music, getting music that is not only memorable but the music that they'll like themselves the next day, which I think is like a huge pain point.   I think that I'm thinking of like a lot of the people who get into this niche, they have these composers that they've been listening to since they've been growing up.  And there's this one Japanese composer who is like the John Williams of video game music. Shane: John Williams is the greatest composer of all time who did Star Wars -- I just want to show my nerd cred. Daniel: Well done, sir.  Well done! Tip of the hat to you.  People constantly are comparing themselves to this guy.  They always hold him up as the example that they want to aspire to.  He was fantastic at writing great melodies and he was fantastic at using, you know, really beautiful harmonies and then people go out and they write these like beats and there's no melody, and they have no idea how to get over that hump. I think it's just a piece that's missing because they went to the technology but they don't have music education, the formal education.  The technology's there, they have access to that. They've got a lot of resources to learn that, but not everyone went through a formal music education degree or knows where to look or what the problem is. Jocelyn: Right.  And I think that we can really help you craft your offer in the community.  Like, that's something that our community members can really latch onto and help you with because I really think that you need to launch something off this next challenge.  That is really, really important. So we can definitely hash through all that. Shane: And it could be ready in 21 days.   Jocelyn: Absolutely, yeah.   Shane: It's already named, it's the Video Game Music Academy, right?  So you have to open a membership area, and your whole thing is give them the training they need to write these things, and then give them a place where they can share music for you to listen to so you can tell them what to do next.  That's it! That's the whole concept of your membership, is that they need someone to show them how, a place to let people hear it, and some feedback, and then they can go and take the other courses that you make, like How to Contact the Video Game, how to submit your music, how to do that stuff.   Jocelyn: We will get into that inside the community a little bit more, and I wanted to touch on one other thing that we kind of glossed over.  It was the time aspect because we've talked about this a million times. Everyone has the same amount of time, but here's the thing: Once you can get clear on your mission, and you can get clear that you are enough of an expert or whatever mindset hurdle is holding you back, I promise that time will not be as much of an issue going forward.   Shane: You've been obsessed so far with how to monetize a product.  That's not exciting. But now, you have a passionate mission to reach into people's hearts and unleash music into the world that can change other people's lives AND maybe make those people a living.  That's deep, dude! That's going to make you find the time, that's going to push everything that's taking up your time to the side, except the things that matter, your mission, your family, your focus.  You're going to see your calendar changed dramatically over the next couple of weeks. I promise you. Daniel: Sounds good.  Sign me up! Jocelyn: Alright, Daniel.   Shane: I'm signing off.  Jocelyn usually signs off, but listen, man, I am so glad that you wrote me that email!  I'm so glad that you wrote it in the way you did, where it was a critic, but it wasn't hateful.  You let yourself be vulnerable there and you were like, "Man, I'm just frustrated, and it frustrates me that you're doing this stuff.”  I'm just really glad that you were also responsive to my feedback back to you and most importantly, that you took action because if you don't take action, right, wrong or indifferent-- I'm not going to say that that hateful email was right, wrong or indifferent.   But like if you don't take some action, right, wrong or indifferent, nothing happens.  You took action and it turned into another action, and then it turned into a better action and now you're going to take even better actions going forward.  And that's how we all get to where we want to be, is just taking action. So, hey man, I'm glad you're in the Flip Your Life community, and I cannot wait to see how you change the world through this music business and it's going to be awesome watching your journey going forward, Daniel.   Daniel: Yeah.  Thank you, thank you both!  And for anyone else who's listening, who is not sure about whether or not to finish that form, shut up and do it.  You'll feel a lot better. Like I said, I've been through a course before. I was super impressed once I got into this.  I mean, you know, everyone's in there, everyone's doing the work and I've been checking in every day and, the videos, and it's like... it's bulletproof.  At the end of every video, there's a giant yellow button telling you what to do next. I'm not confused. I know what I need to do, so I'm feeling better.  I think I know what I need to do next now, and I'm looking forward to having you help me out craft my offer. Shane: All right man.  Awesome stuff, dude!  Welcome to the community!  Let's get it going. Daniel: All right.   Shane: Hey guys.  Thanks again for listening.  We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.  If you still need more help with any of the topics that we discussed today, or maybe you have a question about something that we went over, we have all the training and support you need inside of the Flip Your Life community.   With over 50 training courses on dozens of online business topics, active community forums, and live member calls with me and Jocelyn every single month, the Flip Your Life community is your opportunity to get the help and support you need to make your online dreams a reality.   And the best part is you can get started today for free.  That's right! All you have to do is go to flippedlifestyle.com/free, and you can get full unlimited access to everything we offer inside of the Flip Your Life community at no cost for 30 days.  Your first month is absolutely free! If you sign up today, you can get unlimited access to all of the courses inside of our training area, unlimited access to all of our community discussion forums, and you'll get to attend our next two live member calls with me and Jocelyn, where you can ask questions about your online business.   And it's all free for the first month.  All you have to do is go to flippedlifestyle.com/free and start your free month today.  That's flippedlifestyle.com/free. We can't wait to see you inside! Shane: Before we go we like to close every single one of our shows with from a verse from the Bible.   Today's Bible verse comes from Proverbs 11:3 and the Bible says, "Honesty guides good people.  Dishonesty destroys treacherous people.” Make sure you are always building on an honest online business that's full of integrity and you treat people the way you would want to be treated.   That's all the time we have for this week! As always, guys, thanks for listening to the Flipped Lifestyle podcast.  Until next time, get out there, take action, do whatever it takes to Flip Your Life. We will see you then. Jocelyn: Bye! Links and resources mentioned on today's show: Daniel's Website Flip Your Life community PROLIFIC Monthly Enjoy the podcast; we hope it inspires you to explore what's possible for your family! Join the Flip Your Life Community NOW for as little as $19 per month! https://flippedlifestyle.com/flipyourlife

Nich is a 28-year-old convert to the church and has been married to Kelsey for almost 2 years now. Father to the almost 1-year-old Evelynn. Having dealt with depression and ADHD for most of my life but not getting diagnosed and treatment until my mid-20's caused a lot of problems that were not approached until they were deeply ingrained. Overcoming those problems while also learning marriage and fatherhood has brought the issues to the forefront where the work has been done and continues to be done.Kelsey is a 26-year-old from Provo, UT (born, raised, and still living there and an active member of the Church). She and Nich have been married just shy of two years and are the parents of an 11-month-old baby girl. She struggles with high stress and anxiety, which combined with Nich's depression and ADHD projects a steep learning curve in motherhood and wife-hood (wife-ing?). As the daughter of Dan and Julie, she has been following Dan's research and culture-changing methods for years and says "Dan may not be involved in the day-to-day of our relationship, but his ideas certainly are."[music]0:00:05 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthened their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:28 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, we have in studio my daughter and son-in-law, and they're gonna be talking about navigating communication while struggling with anxiety and depression. So we wanna welcome you here and appreciate you taking the time. They actually volunteered, they said they wanted to talk about this, so I appreciate them being vulnerable and willing to share their personal experiences about the difficulties and maybe even successes of dealing with anxiety and depression in the relationship and how you navigate those discussions. So let me turn it over to Kelsey and Nich and have you introduce yourself and tell us some more details about your struggles.0:01:17 Kelsey: Well, we've been listening in on and learning about what my dad talks about through the groups that he does and stuff like that and we wanted to be a part of this if we could. I'm Kelsey, my husband is Nich and we have an 11th month old cute little girl. And...0:01:43 Daniel: She is cute. [chuckle]0:01:45 Kelsey: And we live in Utah in Provo, we're both active members of the Church.0:01:52 Nich: We just renewed our temple recommends actually before we came out.0:01:56 Kelsey: Yes, we did. We were visiting Dan, my dad, and my mom in California and so we get this opportunity to be together today.0:02:06 Nich: Yeah.0:02:07 Daniel: You wanna tell us more, Nich?0:02:09 Nich: Yeah, I am a convert to the Church, grew up in a non-denominational house, and then when I was almost 20, so about eight years ago, I joined the Church and varying levels of activities since then but we actually met on the mission.0:02:28 Kelsey: Yeah, we served our mission, missions, is it plural or singular?0:02:33 Nich: Singular, yeah.0:02:34 Kelsey: We served our mission in Seattle, Washington. So we were in the same MTC group, actually, so we started at the same time and then I got home five-and-a-half months before he did. So that's kind of a fun aspect of our relationship. We have the mission to share with each other. And Nich mentioned that he joined the Church about eight years ago. I'm 26, he's 28. So that's about where we are in life.0:03:05 Daniel: Yes. So who's, I realize there's a bleed of emotions here, or not bleeding, but an overlap rather. Who's the one who struggles with anxiety and who's the one who struggles with depression?0:03:20 Kelsey: I struggle with anxiety and Nich has the...0:03:24 Nich: We could go both. We could say both.0:03:26 Kelsey: Grand experience of having both.0:03:27 Daniel: I, thank you, that's absolutely true but Nich is the one who struggles predominantly with depression and anxiety is Kelsey. So, you've been married for how long?0:03:41 Nich: One month short of two years.0:03:43 Kelsey: Yeah.0:03:44 Nich: So almost two years.0:03:45 Kelsey: One month short of two years.0:03:45 Nich: So, mathematically our daughter was born eight days before our first anniversary.0:03:51 Kelsey: Yup. [chuckle]0:03:53 Daniel: So tell us about what it's been like? Now, let's start in your dating phase. So you guys knew each other on the mission. We don't necessarily need... You weren't dating on the mission, but I think you had exposure to each other's personalities there. But let's focus more on the dating phase. Did you, how did you navigate anxiety and depression? Was it something that was present in the dating phase?0:04:20 Kelsey: Well, I think we had a sense of what each other kind of struggled with just from knowing each other on the mission. I knew that Nich had things he was working on... I mean, then elder Henry, it's weird to refer to him in that now, but I knew he had things he was working on, 'cause when we were on MTC together, he would get called down and go and have a session with his therapist there or what I thought was probably a therapist, I'd kind of fill in the blanks. So we knew a little bit that we struggled then. Actually on our first date, I remember saying some of my struggles and then saying, I cannot play therapist girlfriend, so I cannot be just, like if I'm gonna be in a relationship with you, it needs to be... I can't just play the emotional help card.0:05:11 Daniel: So, Kelsey, let me pause there 'cause the audience doesn't know who you are and I understand why you said that, but hearing that for the first time, I think will sound a little cold. You wanna give it a little background on why you said on the first date you're not gonna play therapist girlfriend, do you mind sharing a little bit about that?0:05:28 Kelsey: Yeah. So the reason why I said that is 'cause I'd had previous relationships where my boyfriend had some pretty deep struggles and I assigned myself the responsibility for his emotions. And I've always taken that as I was self-sacrificing and I'm helping and I need to be there for them but I would... All of their emotional struggles were suddenly my responsibility, and I think that can be really loving, but I also found that it was really tiring and that I put an unhealthy load on myself. Yeah, it was just an unhealthy amount of responsibility I assigned to myself, that I needed to be the one to help them navigate all of their emotional struggles.0:06:25 Daniel: You put a 110% into your relationships. And a couple of the boyfriends that you had previously struggled with severe depression, and there was definitely that... I'm gonna use the term "co-dependency," That enmeshment, where you felt a lot of responsibility for their emotions. So, here, meeting Nich, recognizing he's very open about his depression, he made that clear. And you're pragmatic, so you don't mince your words, but it wasn't... I guess, let me ask. Nich, I wasn't there. Was that a shock to hear Kelsey say that?0:07:00 Nich: I wouldn't say it was a shock. It was actually, in my opinion, quite refreshing. Because in my past, I had had people try to do that to me, and I think both Kelsey and I struggled with co-dependency in previous relationships. And having that honesty at that moment showed that this would be something more than just a nice, fun relationship. It would be something that would, actually, be a serious relationship that we wanted to have and that would help both of us with that, and not help each other in bad ways.0:07:32 Kelsey: Yeah, we jumped into being pretty serious pretty quickly. And "serious" is a vague word, but we were okay with being really emotionally open really fast. Once he got home from his mission, we started going on dates. And I think part of that was just that we were really willing to be open with each other about the struggles that we had, and along with... See, you said that me saying right off the bat that I didn't wanna be a therapist girlfriend was cold, along with...0:08:11 Daniel: Just the way you said it here. I just didn't want the audience...0:08:13 Kelsey: Right, yes. [chuckle]0:08:15 Daniel: "I don't know who you are, Nich, but I'm not gonna be your therapist girlfriend."[chuckle]0:08:18 Daniel: I just want the audience to know that that's not what went down.0:08:21 Kelsey: No, no, there was some background with that, and I had a follow-up comment.0:08:26 Daniel: "Great, you wanna go out to dinner now?"[chuckle]0:08:29 Kelsey: Oh, I said with that... 'Cause we continued to have a conversation about that, 'cause it was... We felt it was gonna be a big thing to navigate in our relationship. But part of the conversation then was that I didn't want to assign myself the responsibility for all of his emotional struggles in that unhealthy way that I had before. But at the same time, I told him that I wanted him to know that I wanted to hear about it when he was struggling, I didn't want him to feel like he was alone.0:09:05 Daniel: That's a great, great clarification. You weren't abandoning him, you weren't saying, "I'm not gonna be a part of this." You were saying, "I wanna do this right. I'm gonna learn how to do this in a healthy way." And that's Evelyn, your daughter, in the background. Everybody can hear.0:09:21 Kelsey: She's looking at us funny, 'cause we're wearing headphones. [chuckle]0:09:25 Daniel: Yeah. And so, I think that was a very appropriate thing to do. And Nich, you were saying, that was refreshing. What was your experience like in previous relationships?0:09:38 Nich: Not good, but that's because most of my relationships before that had happened in high school, which no one's had a great relationship in high school, except for the very rare people. And so, it felt a lot more mature and adult in that sense. And that's what made it so refreshing, was it didn't feel like I'd be dating someone that wasn't emotionally mature at all, but someone that was comfortable in who they were and what they actually wanted in their life and relationships at the time.0:10:10 Daniel: So, why was it distracting or not helpful in your relationship for others to feel like they had to save you? Or... I don't wanna put words in your mouth. What was difficult about those relationships where they were taking that responsibility?0:10:27 Nich: It was enabling. I felt...0:10:29 Daniel: You recognize that?0:10:30 Nich: Yeah. In retrospect, I recognize that. At the time, I'm an idiot and don't recognize it.0:10:37 Daniel: I wouldn't say that, but it is hard to recognize that in the moment.0:10:41 Nich: I personally was an idiot. If anyone else is feeling that, that's up to them to decide what that feels like. But really, looking back on it, it was super enabling, and it made it easy for me to subconsciously manipulate my way through the relationship in that sense, then.0:11:00 Daniel: So, what did you do? You had a few dates, testing up the relationship. Tell us how it started to develop.0:11:07 Kelsey: Well, at the risk of just sounding super Mormon-y, one of the reasons that we were okay with being so emotionally serious so fast is because we both felt really strongly in a spiritual way, the Spirit prompted us that we were meant to really dive into this relationship and really try to make it work. And we felt pretty soon into the relationship, probably less than a month, that, "This," in Nich's words, "could be it." Search could be over, we could make this work long-term and be together and get married and raise a family. And so, that was the guiding force, factor, in the beginning of our relationship, was just, we really wanted to dive in and follow what we felt like God would want us to do with each other and for each other.0:12:01 Daniel: So, you set these healthy boundaries at the beginning, you felt the Spirit in your life, and I would call that authentic, super-Mormon-y. Gosh, I'm gonna struggle speaking today. I get what you're saying there, but it sounds very authentic. You both were praying about this, you're trying to figure it out. You liked each other, you established those healthy boundaries. So was it easy from there on out?0:12:30 Kelsey: No, not at all.0:12:32 Daniel: So what was the... Well, go ahead, go ahead.0:12:35 Kelsey: I think when anybody's dating even if you're really emotionally mature and are open with each other, there's things that don't fully get opened up because you're dating... You're learning about each other, you don't just... You're not an open box right, right from the start. And in all honesty... We were engaged by Easter, so we started dating in after Christmas time, and then we were engaged by Easter, so it was pretty quick. So, obviously, we couldn't have known everything about each other's emotional struggles and how to navigate that. And then less than a year into marriage, add the responsibility of a baby into there. So no, it hasn't. It's definitely been bumpy, trying to navigate each other's way of thinking and emotional needs and that's, I guess, that's kind of what we wanna focus today.0:13:27 Daniel: Yeah, so share with us the first time in your dating relationship this became an issue, issue meaning you're facing the realities of depression and anxiety and how it was affecting your relationship. So the first part, when did you experience your first difficulty? However you wanna define that, whether it was major or something that you consciously had to navigate, what was that like and how did you navigate it?0:14:00 Kelsey: So I would say the first one was, and correct me if I'm wrong, Nich, but when we were... Because we knew that we could try to be pretty serious and that we were wanting to go towards getting engaged and getting married pretty early and actually Nich was having struggled feeling like he was accepted into my family because they didn't know him, right, they hadn't even met him. And all of a sudden it's like, I want you to meet Nich and we're probably gonna get married. And Nich had expressed to me once that growing up in a non-denominational Christian household, he had this idea that getting married to an LDS girl means being kept in this open arms LDS family and he felt a little bit judged, because my family was wary because we were getting together so quickly and they didn't even know who he was.0:15:00 Kelsey: So I would say that was probably the first struggle that we had to navigate is him not feeling like he was immediately accepted into my supposedly in traditional LDS family, which I don't think we're very traditional at all. If, I don't know how much Dan has shared in the podcast before, but Dennis, my step dad, and so I have two sets of parents that are both wonderful, and so that's in and of itself, not very traditional. And Nich wasn't feeling very accepted by any of the four of them plus my sisters for a while there. And I think that's probably... That first time we had to navigate through.0:15:36 Daniel: Yeah, and I'll speak from the perspective of the family and that was accepting, I think, we were pretty accepting, I think, we were very cautious because we didn't know Nich and we knew the struggles with depression and the tendency for you to date with individuals with depression. And I wanna pause there real quick, 'cause again, we have a variety of listeners and when we talk about anxiety and depression, I think it might be good to put a level on that. And so it's not just your common anxiety. Kelsey, you clarify, there's a high level, you're a high-functioning very anxious person. And Nich, how would you describe your depression?0:16:20 Nich: I would say that I typically am very high functioning with it. I do still struggle with suicidal thoughts occasionally, and Kelsey I have talked about that, not as much as we probably should thinking about it, but I've attempted suicide in the past. It's made it that there are days that I just feel completely shut down but I can still get out of bed, I can still do things. So it's not to that level and it never has been, but it's a lot more emotionally taxing. And then you mix that with me being a pretty severe introvert where I can get socially tired listening to a podcast, that it makes it nearly impossible in those moments to want to reach out and talk to anyone because I feel like I'm already exhausted from my depression, just talking to someone's gonna make it even more tiring.0:17:10 Daniel: Yes, yes and we were aware of that, and so we weren't actually at the time aware of how severe the depression was but we knew that we were being cautious and so rightfully so, you're absolutely correct. There was a concern for us and we didn't know Nich and it wasn't that we didn't wanna accept him in and it was just who is he and we were concerned. Were you getting pulled into another relationship that you felt like you to care and you were showing signs of maturity, way beyond your previous relationships. And I think that put a lot of ease in to Mom and I's side of it. Yeah, that we...0:17:47 Kelsey: I think because of the other relationships, I right off the bat, recognized that there was the potential for me to want to become the what I had been named the therapist girlfriend, the caretaker girlfriend, the emotional support system for everything that depression, anxiety, and actually ADHD, all piles up together. And so we knew going into it, I didn't know the depth. And I think we're still learning the depth of what each other is struggling with emotionally but we knew going into it, that there would be... That we would need to be able to focus on those kind of differences and that we needed to do it while still remaining healthy, and that I wanted to make sure that I didn't simply... How do I word that? The word that just keeps coming to me is assigning unnecessary responsibility.0:18:41 Daniel: That's huge. It is very hard to communicate that because in a relationship you care about each other. And the last thing you wanna see is the other person suffering, and that is difficult when somebody struggles with anxiety or depression, you wanna rescue them, that's a very natural... Or you wanna make it more comfortable or you wanna be... You want your love to be able to heal and uplift that person and it is hard to describe. And that's why we generally use the words or phrases setting healthy boundaries which we were seeing, and we were very impressed. And it sounds like, Nich, you were appreciating that. So what was one of these times, at the beginning of your relationship where you had to really focus on being mindful with these boundaries?0:19:33 Kelsey: I'm remembering right after we got married, or not right, before we got married, actually, Nich was trying to navigate. He had done some school before his mission and he was trying to navigate what life choices he wanted to make now, the big life decisions. Like do I want to go to school so I wanna go to a trade school, do I wanna, how am I gonna start a career? And obviously with having, being majorly introverted, so the whole build up a network and make all these friends was not his cup of tea at all, that was an nope right out of that one, but he also didn't wanna just sit around and do nothing and stew, because that builds up anxiety, which depression and anxiety are such friends with that. You wanna talk more about how you were feeling then, 'cause that was a big thing?0:20:20 Nich: Yeah, 'cause I made it so much worse, because it was... At the time I was 25, 26-ish, and I had done some school before and failed miserably at it, for a lot of mental health issues, and not knowing exactly what I wanted to do is my life but felt like, well, that's what you do after you graduate high school, you go to college. And so we had that, and I simply felt that there was nothing that I was qualified to do and that anything I did choose to do schooling-wise or anything would take several years, I wouldn't be able to support the family and all of that. And it was a huge drain and when we were talking about it, I don't know if Kelsey remembers this, but I remember well, 'cause it was something I was thinking, but thinking that one of the things that I really wanted to do was make that decision for me and not... Let Kelsey help, let her inform and have her opinion, but that if it wasn't something that I chose to do and wanted to do that I really wouldn't be happy in whatever choice I made in that.0:21:36 Daniel: So you're recognizing that in your fear of the future, you didn't have clarity there, you didn't wanna fall into the habit of depending on Kelsey to guide through this, you had this desire to differentiate, is what we call it, and to make this decision on your own. That's an interesting experience because, with depression and setting healthy boundaries in this relationship, it's important to have that distinction, but there's also a risk that you're doing it all alone and not receiving help. Did you experience that?0:22:10 Kelsey: The first thing that comes to mind with that is that I like to have a plan. It eases my anxiety. I like to know exactly what's gonna happen and how I'm supposed to be involved with it. So, while I knew that he needed to make this decision on his own when... And he had a job then that he didn't really like, he worked with a hotel chain, which is a fine hotel chain, but this particular management wasn't awesome, so he would come home angry and not satisfied with where he was at, and I would just want him to make a plan for how he could be more positive, how he could move in the direction that he wanted to. And I kinda wanted to be able to...0:22:45 Daniel: Make Nich happy.0:22:46 Kelsey: Make Nich happy and lay out steps that would make it work, and like the now steps were, okay, well, you can only change you. And I would give them all of the motivational talk about that and then what do we wanna do to make it so that you can move out, maybe get out of this job or see if there's opportunity for promotion or whatever it is. And I wanted there to be a plan that eases my anxiety. And because he was expressing that he wanted to make this decision on his own, I was thinking, well, then, am I not allowed to say anything? This is all up in the air. It's making my anxiety spike so much and I wanna help you, but I also know that your emotions are your responsibility but I don't like feeling this tension between us, because you haven't figured your life out. It's really hard and I think all recently married couples kind of experience that, because usually you're still finishing school, or you've just finished school and you're figuring out what kinds of things feel like your life.0:23:43 Kelsey: And I was really worried about Nich, because he had told me that school was such a... Just a not good experience before his mission, and so we wanted to find something else, but me being someone who was like on the regular track, I went to high school, then went to BYU and graduated from BYU and so I was like, well, that doesn't make sense, you just do the thing so you can feel confident that you have the school you want. And I knew that he was gonna be a little less traditional with that and I didn't know how to help him navigate it, but I also wanted to help him not be so unsatisfied and hence depressed with the way that he was thinking, and so that was a huge... It still is kind of a big thing to navigate, even though he has more of a life plan now. I need to... My need for a plan makes it so that I bug him about it a lot, and that increases both of our anxiety, even though I'm trying to assuage mine.0:24:37 Daniel: Not knowing what Nich's plan was, was spiking your anxiety.0:24:40 Kelsey: Oh, a ton.0:24:41 Daniel: So you're dealing with a handful of things there, wanting Nich to be happy and help him while also managing your own anxiety. You don't know what's happening tomorrow, a year from now, we're getting married and we need to figure this out. And so you're trying to nail it down and trying to figure out what's your part? A great example there. So what was your experience like, Nich, in that experience?0:25:06 Nich: The big thing is, and Kelsey and I have talked about this several times since then, is that Kelsey needs to let me be happy in the way that I am happy. And that's really difficult, 'cause usually she gets so anxious about it 'cause it's like, but you need a plan that I like, which makes sense, you wanna plan that you like. That's what everyone wants in their life. But what we've had to navigate with that is that my way of going about and thinking about things isn't nearly as plan-oriented as hers is and it... That's difficult, but it's because I've set up a lot of plans in my past and they never came to fruition, and I felt really hurt by all of that and so I've been trying to figure out, okay, how do I set a goal and a plan without it actually not coming to fruition, therefore it really hurts.0:26:05 Daniel: Which feeds into your depression and your sense of failure.0:26:08 Nich: Bcause I'm like, "Well, I couldn't even accomplish that," and that's why I didn't wanna go to, why I was so apprehensive about school again and feeling that about a career was I've had all these major plans and failures in the past, that's just gonna repeat itself again because look at what's already happened, which getting married should have shown that not true to be... Not to be true, but...0:26:32 Kelsey: Something that comes to mind too, with all of this, is not only do I like to have a plan. A huge difference between me and Nich is that I like to talk things out until they make sense and I like to keep saying more words, even if we're talking to...0:26:50 Daniel: It's already getting overwhelming, isn't it?0:26:52 Kelsey: Until it makes sense, because that's how I like to plan, I like to be on the same page, and I feel like the best way to do that is to talk it out, but the way that Nich thinks is more, I'm not gonna say anything until this whole thing is more formulated in my mind. And so I'm sitting here like, why is isn't he saying anything, and why can't we have a conversation about this and why is he keeping all this from me, and he needs to do this by himself, but I wanna be in on it, and... And my thoughts are that fast. Just little fireballs. I don't know what he's thinking, and I want to, and I want to contribute to what he's thinking, and there's been a lot of times when I'll ask a lot of questions and then Nich will say, Kelsey, I'm thinking about this, I don't want you to think, I'm not thinking about it at all, I am I'm just not ready to formulate it into a conversation.0:27:43 Kelsey: And that stresses me out because I like talking things through, even when they don't make. Especially when they don't make sense to myself yet. I'll talk through something that I'm worried about till I'm blue in the face, and Nich will not say a word, and then I'll be like, "So what, so what are you thinking?" He's like, "A lot of things. I can't talk about it 'cause I'm thinking so many things you just laid a lot on me." So I'm a talker. He's a thinker, and I think out loud, and he thinks in his head. So those are very polarized when we... Especially if we're both feeling anxious. The more anxious I feel, the more I want to talk, the more anxious he feels, the less he wants to talk as the more he wants to just be like, just let me be by myself. I'm gonna put on noise canceling headphones and I don't hate you, but I want out.0:28:31 Daniel: Let me go think, give me room to think. So what did you do? So here, you're noticing these difficulties, not easy, it's very messy. What did you do, how did you or have you learned to navigate that in a way that's supportive of each other, and I'm not necessarily suggesting that your anxiety is going down. For example, one thing you said is Nich will say, "I can't talk about this, I'm definitely thinking about it." But that would spike your... So on one hand he's communicating, he's saying, I need you to back off. Let me... Give me some space here, which is great communication, but stressful to you because it's not the information that supports you. And so have you two found a way to navigate?0:29:23 Kelsey: Well, we even had to work up to... Like me being able to read that that's what he was saying 'cause sometimes he wouldn't actually say, "I can't do this right now. I can't have a conversation, but I am thinking about it." He would instead kinda just halt the conversation. He's continuing the conversation in his brain, but he would halt the conversation with me and either put on his ear buds or go into a different room, and I'm just like, "We weren't done, where are you going?" And he'd be like, "I was done with that conversation right now," and then I think that he just wants to drop it and he's being very uncaring and it's just, I'm saying all these things about how he's mad at me now, and he's annoyed. So we've had to work up to me knowing that what that means isn't, "I'm mad and you've offended me," but instead, "That's a lot to process. I'm thinking about it. I wanna shelve this conversation and start it up another time," and the more that I bring it up like, "Oh, have you thought about that yet?" Twenty minutes later, the more anxiety he has.0:30:22 Kelsey: And so I just have to... Okay, I realize now, it's hard for me, but I have to say, okay, I probably shouldn't bring this up again until he brings it up, which for me needing a little bit is going into our bedroom and saying a prayer and then I'm fine. For him, it could be, it could be 20 minutes if he really wants to talk about it, right then but it can also be five days, and five days is a really long time for someone who wants to talk about things right now.0:30:51 Daniel: Yes, it is.0:30:51 Kelsey: And we've had to build up to a spot where I'm getting to be a little bit more okay with him needing to shelf it and that's hard. And then I'm sure I make it harder for him when I keep bringing it up over and over and over again.0:31:10 Daniel: I appreciate what you said, though, you recognize that's what he needs and a mistake that a lot of couples make, and I'm sure his... It's a tendency, I don't... It's probably not fair to say it's a mistake, it's a very natural tendency to say, "Oh, Nich isn't talking to me. If he loved me, he would understand he needs to talk to me." And it becomes not about the depression, but the degree of love in the relationship, you start to assign degrees of love. Him walking away is an indicator he doesn't love me, and that's a dangerous place to be in, because it has very little to do with love when our minds are running wild, our depression's kicking in. Our anxiety's kicking in. So what I was hearing is you were consciously keeping it on the forefront of your mind, okay? He's not trying to hurt me, he's not falling out of love with me, he's not doing this because he hates me, he's struggling. And then you would go say a prayer to help manage your own anxiety. Is that successful every time? Do you do find going and praying, is the right balm for you?0:32:23 Kelsey: When I'm in the right enough mindset to decide to go do that, yes. A lot of the times it's, "No, I wanna sit here and I wanna hash this out until it's done," and there can't be any other thing that happens.0:32:35 Daniel: And that's how we got our taxes done. Oh, boy. Sometimes you do... You have to, right, because there's a deadline. I may wanna address that in a minute, here, but so, but specifically for you, what are some other ways maybe that you...0:32:49 Kelsey: Well, and you say that it would have had to be on the forefront of my mind and I have had... That's a subconscious narrative all the time is this, "Well, if he's abandoning conversation, does that mean he doesn't actually care about how I feel? And he just is fed up with me and he wants to be just done with this." And then of course if I'm in a high anxiety mode I escalate done with this conversation, to done with me and like he wants to leave now, and I don't know when he's gonna come back, and that doesn't happen.0:33:19 Daniel: Leaving is not the marriage. Out the door, take a walk, is that what you mean?0:33:24 Kelsey: Right. Well, like I said, when I'm feeling really, really anxious sometimes I think... Well, for the sake convenience he probably wouldn't divorce me, but he wants to be gone. I would think he doesn't want to be in this right now. He wants an escape. And...0:33:42 Daniel: You mean as an excuse? I don't wanna deal with this. I'm leaving.0:33:47 Kelsey: Yeah, kind of. And when I say leaving, I realize that that can be vague, and I kinda joke that... We want to stay together. We've, I come from a family that has divorce and remarriage and from the beginning we were like, "We have some things to work through. We are going to have things to work through, but we wanna stay together." And so I know that I don't ever have to be afraid that he's literally going to want to leave as in divorce me, but I think he doesn't wanna be dealing with this right now, and that means he doesn't wanna be dealing with me and that can create a lot of...0:34:22 Daniel: You internalize and it becomes part of your anxiety. So what do you do to get yourself out of that, that mindset?0:34:30 Kelsey: Up until super recently, actually, I needed him to talk me out of it, I really craved for him to say, "No, that's not how I'm feeling. I don't wanna leave you, I'm overwhelmed by the situation, but it's not your fault and I'll work through it, just give me some time." And when he wouldn't say things like that, but I was just supposed to infer it, and I didn't realize that yet, I would be really scared that like, "He's fed up with me, he doesn't wanna be in this relationship, he wants an out," and so that's something that now that he has told me some of the things that go through his head in those high anxiety moments, I can kind of remind myself of that when a high anxiety moment comes back again that he doesn't need to say it every time. And like I said, up until recently, I wanted him to say it every time, every argument I wanted him to say what he was feeling and reassure me and I realized that that's not who he is and that my need for validation of my emotions was very high.0:35:38 Kelsey: It still is, I'm working on it, but... And that I can remind myself of what he's told me in the past and trust what he's told me in the past without needing to hear it every single time he got angry or anxious or upset or whatever...0:35:50 Daniel: Overwhelmed.0:35:51 Kelsey: Title you want to call the emotion. Because I needed the validation every time and I'm currently working on being able to trust what he's already said and not needing a repeat on the validation every time.0:36:05 Daniel: What you're describing there is, I think, such an important takeaway. I assure you that there are many listening to this who also struggle with anxiety, depression and what you just described is breaking a cycle. I liked the words you said, your need for validation... Validation is valid, alright, it's... And there's this very... There's this interesting place because we feel love, we feel connection when we have those feelings validated, but what you're experiencing is this escalation of depression and anxiety. And you just said exactly that. I knew I needed him to reassure me that he wasn't gonna leave, but then you said, I had to remember our previous conversations, and that's where I found comfort, and it's still hard.0:37:03 Daniel: So there's this interesting place where your anxiety is driving the need for the validation versus the actual need for validation. And I wanna be careful with that, 'cause that's a very difficult place to differentiate and discern because when your anxiety and depression are kicking in, it's a concrete need, isn't it? It's like, tell me you're not leaving now, but you're recognizing, okay, no, no, no, no, this is my anxiety, I need to, I need to take responsibility, just as much as I told Nich he needs to take responsibility for his depression. That's impressive. And that is a very difficult place to be in.0:37:41 Kelsey: And just as a follow-up to that, sometimes it'll even be while I'm trying to remind myself and trust the things that he's told me in the past, I'll actually say things like, "This is what I'm feeling from you, I'm worried about this. Would it be truthful of me if I said his is what you're thinking right now?" And then because I said the words and he didn't need to, 'cause he's not feeling put together enough to say it, he'll then be like, "Yes, that's right." And then I could reassure myself without needing him to do it, but I needed a little extra assurance of him confirming what I've trusted from him before, if that makes sense.0:38:20 Daniel: Wonderful, yeah. Nich, anything to add to that?0:38:24 Nich: I would say, for me, a lot of the time, the word that we've been using a lot recently is that we feel overwhelmed with anxiety or depression or just our emotions in general, and like Kelsey's been saying for her it's... She blasted at you. I would go beyond a shotgun to like a machine gun effect on it sometimes, versus so much in such quick succession, and terrible accuracy at the same time, because that's what you end up doing. Well, for me, it becomes my mind becomes foggier and foggier and foggier and that's why it becomes so difficult for me to want to reach out and actually cut through that and recognize that those moments when she's like, "This is what I'm thinking, this is what I'm feeling. Is that accurate?" And it's like, "Okay, the words are there. I can agree or disagree with that, and that can provide me some clarity and some guidance through that right now."0:39:22 Nich: And so that's always been beneficial to me, but I also have to keep it at the front of my mind, some of those times where it's, okay, I only have half a sentence right now, I have to trust that if I begin that, that will cut through and provide my clarity for me and that I can actually start to talk and actually can break out of this right now, even though I feel absolutely terrified that I don't know where the sentence is ending and I don't wanna be Michael Scott from The Office, thank you.0:39:52 Kelsey: Yeah, that's a huge thing too, is that when I'm feeling anxious, I obviously I want him to respond, I want him to tell me what he's thinking, and he doesn't like to unless he's done thinking, which can take days or more.0:40:11 Daniel: Or more. Is this complete silence or is it just on that particular point or topic, or does it depend?0:40:19 Nich: It's usually on that point or topic, I would say, because if we can, if we end up changing the topic to something more...0:40:24 Kelsey: Light.0:40:25 Nich: Light, yeah, less serious like, "Oh, what are we gonna do for dinner," which typically ends up, "I don't know, let's figure that out," or like, "Oh, okay," then we just take a break and then it's, "Hey, what's on TV," or something like that, that can break it out, because then it's a new direction, a new focus and I don't feel the pressure to respond.0:40:50 Daniel: A distraction.0:40:50 Nich: Yeah.0:40:51 Kelsey: But when we are really, when... Well, maybe it's just me, when I'm really focused on a topic, because again, I want to hash it out all right then, and I'll say everything that's on my mind. And then if it's just like nothing, just like, not even crickets, I won't even say crickets, just nothing.0:41:08 Daniel: The crickets are scared.0:41:09 Kelsey: And then I feel like I've just left this big emotional blob and then a slight inquiry at the end and I'm getting nothing and then that spikes my anxiety. Because in those moments, it is complete silences. I don't wanna talk about any of what you've just said at all right now because it's all running through my head, and that can be hard to deal with, but again, I will say I have learned that I need to say what I need after I've expressed all that stuff. If I have the clarity to say it beforehand, I'll say, okay, I'm feeling a lot of emotions, this is what I need right now. If it's either listen or confirm if what I'm feeling is crazy or not, then I'll spill out everything, and then because I've already told him what result I need from him, he can respond. And sometimes when I'm not feeling clarity enough to do that, I will say all the stuff because I'm overwhelmed and then say, "Okay, now that I've said all of that I realized that what I need from you right now, is blank."0:42:15 Kelsey: And then that gives us both something to focus on, and often I solve my own problem, but sometimes, often, he can help me solve it, now that I've given him something more narrow out of my big emotional balloon I just popped in his face.0:42:29 Daniel: So what I like about that is you're communicating right now. I know you can't, so I'm putting it, obviously, in my words, but is how I'm gonna summarize it. It sounds like, Nich, you're overwhelmed, and I see that. I also have a need to verbalize what's going on here, and this is what I'll probably need afterwards. What do you do in those situations where you're recognizing she's communicating? I need to verbalize this, and maybe she doesn't always have to communicate that verbally or at least... Hey, heads up. I got to vocalize this, you know, we're now, it's two years in the marriage and you know, she needs to share her thoughts and you want to provide her that space to share. How do you go about doing that?0:43:15 Nich: I think a lot of the time, recently, it usually happens at night, when we're just laying in bed before we attempt to sleep. And it helped recently that Kelsey even said that typically the thing that she needs is a hug or just to be held. And that if she doesn't tell me exactly what it is, that's probably a good default option for...0:43:40 Daniel: That's good.0:43:41 Nich: And the moments when she has been able to directly state that this is... Like, when she ends it on a question that was very implicitly, "I want an answer to this question," whether she verbalized that, you could kinda tell that, "Okay, this is actually a question question and not a thinking out loud question," which has been very hard to discern until we've been more open and talking about what that can look like and mean for us, I've... It's a lot easier for me to answer then because then I know what that expectation is, and it's harder for my mind to then run out of control, 'cause it's like, "Okay, there's a very clear question here that she wants," and there's still a space there as I collect my thoughts after she finishes and I wanna make sure that she is done, and then as I start to collect it, I become more okay with that half-finished idea that I feel like I have.0:44:41 Daniel: What I like hearing here is, is you eliminate the guessing, you don't wanna become as a, Kelsey, as an anxious person, hyper-vigilant to Nich's behavior. And there's a danger there, because if he shuts down, he's going silent. You're becoming hyper-vigilant. It's like, "Okay, something's wrong with Nich, what's going on? I have to dig and I have to dig and I have to dig," you're recognizing, "Okay, I need to treat him like an adult and allow him to go through this but I am gonna vocalize what I need and Nich is gonna respond to that."0:45:13 Daniel: I think this is really important and it's gonna lead into two other questions I have here. And the first one is, what would you say, I guess, both Nich and Kelsey, with anxiety and depression, for those who don't truly understand how difficult it is to live and function in a relationship with these two things, who might say, this is something that you use, as you're alluding to, a way to avoid a conversation, what's the difference there? And then the second one is, and you can answer whatever order you like, is now that you have a kid and you do have deadlines, how do you function with these two struggles, anxiety and depression, in meeting those deadlines and the needs of your child. 'Cause sometimes you can't, you can't put something off for a day or two. So, guide us in that, what do you do?0:46:13 Kelsey: Well, to answer your second question, the first thing that comes to mind actually is that having a baby, actually, it provides... How Nich mentioned that sometimes we'll just switch to a lighter topic if it feels like it's getting too overwhelming, too heavy, because we're both too anxious, it's really easy to just then, "Baby needs attention, so we're not talking about this right now, because... " Or baby's fussy or she wants to eat or I'm still nursing her a few times a day so that actually provides me... "Okay, baby's hungry. We're gonna pause this conversation. I'm gonna go have a chance to go think in baby's room while I'm nursing her by myself."0:46:57 Kelsey: So in some ways it eliminates my need to just keep hashing it out because there's an immediate need of a baby there, and so I can then focus my energy on her, whether that's anxious energy, it's usually anxious energy. I can focus that need on her and take a break. Not that I always recognize it as a break, sometimes it's more like... I wanted to have this conversation and this, this baby just needs to interrupt it. And so in the moment it might feel more stressful because there's another human being that needs me right now, other than myself and my husband but...0:47:40 Kelsey: And when I think about it, and while I'm then taking care of the baby, it's okay. This is probably a needed break from that conversation. We could take a pause. I can take care of the baby for a little while and then maybe bring this up again later when we've had a chance to chill out. And that's an up and down emotional roller coaster, right, because when somebody else needs you, it's like it's fulfilling but at the same time, it's like... But I had something else I wanted to focus on right now. So it's, it's up and down definitely.0:48:18 Daniel: Yeah, and what was the first question again? I'm trying to... For those who don't, haven't experienced this level of anxiety or depression or understand it and may say, life is tough, you've gotta still... Are you using it to... Is this a form of running away and not handling your responsibilities?0:48:39 Nich: I was slightly thinking about that and I wanted clarification on the question. And it's not... You can use an excuse to run away from any responsibility that you find anyway.0:48:49 Daniel: Absolutely.0:48:50 Nich: And so I would say it can definitely appear like that. And when you're in that moment of depression, when that thought comes to mind, or anxiety, all it does is make it worse because now you're like, "Great. Now, I'm also not taking care of my child, I'm not doing my homework." And it just keeps building upon itself more and more, and that makes it so difficult. And that's one of the benefits to marrying Kelsey and having you as a father-in-law is that we've been able to recognize that more and in a healthy way rely upon each other to know that even if we're both feeling super overwhelmed, we've been able to develop a sense of trust with each other where it's, okay, we both need something right now, and we need to figure what that is.0:49:45 Nich: And for... I can definitely see that people that haven't felt that and don't understand that how that could appear from the outside, but I would say just think about all the different excuses that you make in your life, for not doing the dishes or not giving your all at work, you're gonna find excuses in your life that are gonna be doing the same thing and they might be as deeply ingrained in your personality as depression or anxiety can be.0:50:15 Daniel: Oh, that's a great, great point. Everybody has their own struggle with procrastinating in some form. Some may be great, like Kelsey and your mom who are great schedulers and use that as a tool for productivity in their life, but there are other aspects of your life that may be a type of procrastination. And so we're all struggling with our own... I really appreciate this conversation 'cause... And I have shared a lot with my audience, but for those who don't know, I by no means struggle with the anxiety or the depression that either of you do, but I definitely do shut down when I get overwhelmed, to a point that I don't even realize, and this came to light, and why I'm sharing this is 'cause it's a lot of what you're doing early in the marriage.0:51:01 Daniel: When we started working out early in the morning, mornings are not good for me, at all, and so I didn't even realize how away I was in my mind and mom, my wife, your mother, would like to talk, and plan out in our drive to the gym in the morning at 5:00 AM, and it would become quickly overwhelming, and I would shut down more. And that was very difficult for her, and it was difficult for me and so becoming verbal. And one of the things that we did was we took the focus or potential offense off of each other. It's not because of you. What I would often do is... You know what, I am having a really... So I had to have it on the forefront of my mind, today is a really rough day. I don't think I slept well. This has nothing to do with you. I kinda need some space here as we drive. And that would be hard for her, because she... That was her time to talk, and there were mornings where she would say, "This is really hard for me." I thought it was going well, I thought it was going well, I didn't feel bad, but I wasn't talking, I wasn't engaging in the conversation, but she would be able to say that and just articulate it, and I would say, "Oh, I had no idea, thank you," and be able to engage in some dialogue right there and then to be able to meet it.0:52:27 Daniel: But I didn't feel like I was responsible for her experience there, and vice versa. And that was a process that we had to grow through, and I think we've gotten pretty good at it and being able to recognize, I'm struggling, you're struggling, okay, that's all that's going on right now and that's it. But that still, that struggle still affects us emotionally, it's like, "Oh, my goodness, I don't want today to be unpredictable." So we start to learn how to navigate that. I need 10 minutes of rest, I'll go shut down, and then I'll come back out and engage in a way that is supportive for her and I'm hearing you two develop those skills and that's really impressive and it's very hard, very hard, 'cause it has to take... You have to learn how not to get offended or take it personal, but yet it's still emotional, and to be able to communicate that so it's very impressive that you two are navigating that.0:53:26 Kelsey: Thank you.0:53:27 Daniel: And I'm not in your daily life. Yeah, you said because of me, but I have very little involvement in your marriage.0:53:35 Kelsey: No, but your ideas have a lot of involvement in our marriage.0:53:39 Daniel: Thank you.0:53:40 Kelsey: Another thing that I was thinking what you're saying that is sometimes you just need to verbalize something to connect, to check in, whatever it is. Something that we've started doing is because I've realized that when Nich gets really overwhelmed verbalizing is the last thing he wants to do.0:53:57 Daniel: It's hard.0:54:00 Kelsey: A lot of the time now he'll just... It kind of communicates... Well, let me tell you what it is first. He'll flash the I love you, the ASL sign, at me, or make the I love you sign with his hand and then touch my knee or something like that, and that's come to communicate that a lot's going on in my mind right now and I can't continue to talk about it at the moment, but I heard you and I love you and that just like... That simple little thing is just like I'm telling you I understand and that I can't do anything about it at the moment, but that I love you.0:54:36 Daniel: That's brilliant. In the context of sex, that's safe words, right? But that's in our emotional relationship, I think that's huge, and I think Julie and I, my wife and I, have done similar things. I don't know if we're as conscious of that, but there are definitely things that we do to communicate, this is where I'm at, so that's brilliant, I really like that. I hope the audience understands the impact of that, so that's... That's good. And I think where that gets really successful. Well, it is a little bit more conscious in our relationship because one of the keys for that to be successful is that we don't use... For example, in your case, the I love you sign as a way to escape the conversation and never follow up for it, right. Where it becomes successful is when you can use it and trust that this will then be followed up later. It's not a way to permanently set it aside. And I think that's where couples get into trouble, and we don't have to hold each other to a specific time frame.0:55:34 Daniel: Sometimes I will say, "Sweetheart, I need to talk to you. Let's put this off until tomorrow," and then, tomorrow comes along and, boy, it's a really bad day at work, or very emotional, it's like... But, I will communicate that with her and say, "It was really rough. Tell you what, let's try to do this tomorrow," but I'm following up eventually following up. It's not, "I'm putting you off." I know my limitations. So another great idea, I love it.0:56:02 Nich: One of the things I was thinking about right now, was that through all of this, one of the biggest problems that we've encountered is in those anxiety or high depression moments and in arguments in general, you take things very personal from what the person says. And for me, one of my big problems throughout life and why Kelsey and I think I might be actually somewhat autistic, is my ability to express my thoughts has caused a huge amount of misunderstandings in my life, and I didn't have it pointed out until my mission that my tone of voice doesn't typically match what I'm actually trying to get across. And I had no idea, and that was a very weird moment on the mission to have my companion tell me that, and he was just making note of it, he wasn't angry with me, or anything. It was just like pointing that out.0:56:53 Daniel: This isn't making sense, Nich, you said this, but it felt like this.0:56:57 Nich: All he said was, your tone of voice really doesn't match what you're saying. And I had the most, what? And so like that, and my phrasing and wording is very particular from what it's been pointed out to me from people and so when I feel like I've expressed something and because she's feeling very anxious or confused, which makes Kelsey hard to actually communicate with, 'cause she's trying to figure it all out in her way, that what I've said very profound or very direct to the point and it was misunderstood. It feels very personal to me, 'cause it's like, but I spent all this time thinking about it and composing this and you're completely misunderstanding and that means you don't understand me.0:57:51 Kelsey: One of the things that I think he mean with that is, if you can tell, Nich is bass, and this means that when he says something that's very direct, it can often sound cutting or short or he doesn't care, because it's just, "Well, this is how it is." The end.0:58:10 Daniel: It's strong.0:58:12 Kelsey: Yes, it's strong. And while that felt very, it might have felt like he was saying something consoling in his own mind because he took time to think about it and that that was his answer, to me it just felt like, well, that was disappointing and rude. And I'll say that, I'll say so, "What do you mean? That was rude. You didn't even think about what I said." And so, yes, while tone and voice and the word choice can play a lot into if you sound nice or consoling or you understand, something we've also had to learn, is that I don't want Nich to speak differently or sound like all rainbows and butterflies, just because I'm anxious, I want him to be himself, but I need to realize that his tone of voice and the way that he says things, even if it can, if I'm having a hard and overwhelming time, it can sound really cutting or dismissive.0:59:11 Kelsey: What I need to realize is that I need to pay attention to the words and also kind of like fill in what I know about him, fill in that I know that he's not trying to dismiss me or tell me that I'm being dumb, but rather that he wants to help me through it, but he also doesn't want to dwell on things that don't need to be worried about, and that's where the directness is coming from, is that he wants to help me dismiss the things that I am focusing my anxious energy on that I don't need to, and that can sound really cutting in the moment. But then I realize he's actually being caring saying, you simply don't need to worry about that. But how it translates to me is I don't care. And...1:00:03 Daniel: Do you have an example of that, 'cause I don't want the listeners... 'Cause the way that does sound, is it could sound controlling. I don't want you to think about this. You got every right to think about whatever you want. So what's a situation where that has occurred and how that's played out?1:00:24 Nich: A lot of the time with our daughter.1:00:26 Kelsey: Right. So there's been a lot of times when... I mean, I'll get really anxious if I put Evelyn down for a nap, 'cause she's still learning how to self-soothe and get herself snuggled up and asleep. I'll put her down for a nap and she's crying and I don't wanna leave her there crying, but I know that she'll get herself to sleep, because she's learning how to do that, and then I'll come out and I'm like, "She's crying again, I don't know why she won't let me put her down for a nap. She didn't even wanna snuggle. She likes you better than me. You're the favorite parent, and you can put her down for a nap and she doesn't cry... "1:01:00 Kelsey: Your anxiety starts to spiral.1:01:00 Kelsey: Yeah, and then I just think, "She hates me." She's 11 months old. Her memory is just so short term, she'll forget in two seconds that I put her down crying and she'll be happy 'cause she's asleep. But I come out saying, "This happens all the time. She hardly wanted to nurse, she didn't wanna snuggle me, she was just crying. I put it in her crib, but now I feel like I abandoned her." And those are the kind of moments when Nich is just like, one of his favorite phrases for those kind of moments for me is, "It is what it is right now," and those exact words.1:01:31 Daniel: That's not quite... I like that, because it's not dismissive. He's acknowledging, it is what it is right now, but don't let me put words in your mouth, that don't allow that, the anxiety to escalate in a way that's distracting or hurtful in the situation.1:01:48 Kelsey: The first few times that he said that I thought he was simply saying, "Shut up, you're overwhelming me, go away." But instead he was saying, "She'll be fine. You don't need to worry about this." So that's what I mean when I say that he'll say something that sounds really direct and cutting, but what he's really trying to say is, "You can tone down your anxiety, this is going to be fine," and I need to translate that in my brain that while I want him to, you know, maybe there's a part of me that wants him to go buy me chocolates and write me a love letter and make me feel better. Him saying it is what it is right now is like the emotional equivalent of that. He's saying, "You can calm down, it's going to be fine."1:02:34 Daniel: So what I'd like, maybe one final thought is, and maybe you two can share, if there's one thing that you can, the listener can take away from this, what would it be? What would you tell your pre-married selves, what would you inform yourselves? But before you answer that, one thing I think is important to clarify here is some will be thinking who are struggling with spouses who struggle with depression, is that they get this feeling of they are who they are, and I just have to let them be. What I notice in your relationship is, yes, there's a degree of that. The fact is, you do struggle with depression and you struggle with anxiety and you both at times struggle with both, and there's this element of that's who they are, but you're not becoming your depression, you're not using that as an excuse, and you are finding opportunities like what you're just describing there is how to communicate better with each other, so you're incrementally trying to meet each other's needs without denying what you're experiencing. Is that fair to say?1:03:43 Nich: Yes, I'd say so.1:03:45 Daniel: Kelsey?1:03:46 Kelsey: There was a lot of description there and I lost the question.1:03:50 Daniel: You're not using this as an excuse, you're not just saying, I'm an anxious person, so you have to live with me, just who I am. You're recognizing that's what you both are struggling with, but there are opportunities in your lives where you're actually trying to meet the needs of the other person. Is that fair to say?1:04:07 Kelsey: Yeah.1:04:08 Daniel: It's not being used as an excuse. I will never change, and I can't learn how to communicate the way that you value. You both are actually trying to communicate in a way that each other values.1:04:19 Kelsey: Yeah. Yeah.1:04:22 Nich: Makes the marriage easier.1:04:23 Kelsey: I would say that with that being said, a good takeaway that I would tell my pre-married self is one, that I don't need to feel like it's 100% my responsibility to care for my husband's emotions or to fix, I guess that's a better word, my husband's emotions if I feel like they're not happy. And with that, while I'm not responsible... While I'm not the sole responsible person for his emotions, I also, on the flip side, can't make him fully responsible for the way that I'm feeling. So that I need to take responsibility for me, and that will need to balance with helping and taking some responsibility for how he's feeling. But if I try to go 100% both ways, we're just both gonna be overwhelmed.1:05:21 Daniel: I love that summary. Thank you. Nich, what about you?1:05:26 Nich: If I would tell something to my pre-married self, it's that you don't have to be who they want you to be. With that, especially with depression and everything else that I felt with that, is that I needed to be able to accept who I am and what I have, with the depression and how my voice is and my ability to communicate, and that the more that I embrace that and try to learn and grow inside of that, that I will find people that are okay with that and who will be friends for a long time. And I will find someone that I'll get married to, despite all these things that most people are looking and going, "Oh, well, you're gonna need to fix that to actually be accepted in society and be accepted by someone."1:06:24 Daniel: Thank you both. I think this is a great example of what it's like to live the gospel, live a relationship where you both love each other, and it's still messy. I think that's important for people to hear and learn how to navigate it and I hope that those listening will hear your example and find encouragement, even in the messy. And I know sometimes we get this ideal of what a eternal temple marriage relationship looks like, and that's not bad, but to be able to see it and on day-to-day basis, and I think you guys have provided a window into that. And so I appreciate your vulnerability, and sharing that with everyone else. Thank you.1:07:06 Kelsey: Thanks, Dan.1:07:06 Daniel: Thank you.[music]Continue the improving intimacy discussion by joining the Improving Intimacy Facebook group. 

 This Post is broken out into two separate sections; Evelyn’s written first-hand account of her sexual health journey as a Latter-day Saint and the full transcript of Evelyn’s podcast interview. Evelyn’s written first-hand account of her sexual health journey:As a single Latter-day Saint woman struggling with anxiety and depression, my sexuality was not a priority in my life. After all, I was single, wasn’t I? As an active and devout member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, my responsibility as I saw it at the time was to avoid and ignore anything related to sex. Whatever my well-meaning youth leaders had intended, the message that I had received from them was that anything related to sex - discussion, acknowledgment, unintended feelings of arousal, etc. - was off-limits. The idea that this avoidance might be contributing to my mental health struggles never crossed my mind. In fact, at one point, when asked whether I had a healthy view of sexuality, my answer was “How should I know?” In my mind, even knowing the answer to a question like this was potentially inappropriate, because it would require thinking about sex.Then came the challenge to make some goals in my life in all areas, including my sexuality. This made me uncomfortable. I have tried to do what is right throughout my life, and this felt like straying a little too close to the fence for me, so I started small. I would just think about my sexuality. That was all. For a few minutes, I would consider that this part of myself that I had isolated, ignored, and disconnected was, in fact, a legitimate part of me. Over time, this few minutes of thought led to study. I read books written by members of the Church and other Christian authors and considered what they had to say. I prayed about what I was reading and my own questions. I became increasingly certain that sexuality and desire are God-given and an important part of being whole and complete. As I came to this understanding, some truly unexpected things began to happen.The first noticeable change was that I began to feel differently about certain TV shows. Many comedies use sex as a primary source of humor. Where these shows had not bothered me previously, I began to feel uncomfortable with the way that they were portraying sexuality. Using this gift from God for a cheap laugh began to affect me more. Studying and thinking and acknowledging my own sexuality made it feel more sacred to me, not less. I changed some of my media habits to reflect my new understanding. This led to a closer relationship with God. I also began to feel better about myself. I felt more comfortable in my own skin. I worried less about what others thought about me, and felt less need to hide behind a mask of whatever I thought others wanted to see. My symptoms of anxiety and depression began to decrease. This was a shock to me, but I realized that accepting my own sexuality and desires allowed me to stop fragmenting myself. I became more whole and more authentic. My relationships did not suffer for letting go of my carefully constructed mask. I became closer to my roommate as we had vulnerable discussions and talked - and sometimes laughed - together about our shared insecurities. Other relationships also improved. I began to serve others more and noticed their needs more easily. I felt more comfortable reaching out to comfort and help others in need.Eventually, I decided to take another step forward in understanding my own sexuality and desires. I decided to explore masturbation. This was not a step that I came to lightly. When it was first suggested during a therapy session, I had a strong negative reaction. I couldn’t possibly do this! It was wrong. I felt anxiety and pressure. I felt torn between a desire to please someone I respected by agreeing to try but also fear that trying this would ruin my relationship with God. As a child, I had stumbled upon the ability to stimulate myself and had done this occasionally for some time before I even understood what it was. The shame I felt when I eventually realized that this was what people meant when they used the term “masturbation” was extreme. I spoke with a bishop about this behavior, and put it behind me as best I knew how, by locking away that part of myself as completely as I possibly could to avoid even entirely unintentional feelings of arousal. Now, the thought that I might choose masturbation on purpose frightened me. I thought about this deeply for some time. Eventually, I made a choice: I would not try masturbation. I shared this in my next session. Once again, the results were unexpected. I didn’t consider this at the time, but this was the first real choice that I had ever made about my own sexuality. I had always attempted to do the right thing, but it was an effort to do what others told me to do. Never before had I exercised my agency around my sexuality. I had never owned a choice before in regards to this part of myself. I felt empowered. I felt strong. My fear and anxiety decreased, but not because of what I had chosen. They decreased simply because I had chosen. I realized then that I had previously allowed myself to be acted upon, rather than claiming my agency and making my choices. I began to pray and consider the possibility of making the choice to try to better understand and appreciate my own body, my sexuality, and my desire through masturbation. After a period of time, and with significant thought and prayer, I decided that this was something that I would do. Not long after this, I met the man that I would marry. My experiences had increased my ability to interact and communicate authentically, and I was able to bring my whole self to this relationship in a way that I had not been able to in past relationships. I was able to communicate more honestly about my needs, with less fear. This is not to say that this was easy, or that I was fully prepared to enjoy the sexual relationship with my husband after marriage. I discovered that what my mind and heart believed, my body did not necessarily understand. Like many women, I had to deal with painful sex and difficulty staying in the present moment during intercourse without shame or fear. Gratefully, my husband is a kind and honest communicator who cares about my enjoyment and is patient with me. As we have talked and shared and supported each other, I have felt increased closeness and enjoyment in sex. I know that if I had not begun the process of understanding and appreciating my sexuality and my own body before we married, this process would have been far more difficult. I fear I would not even have been able to talk about it with my loving husband with honesty and awareness, which would have made our intimate experiences together more challenging and our conversations less effective.I know that my journey is far from complete. I still often feel like I have a long way to go. I also would never presume that someone else should make the same choices I have. Every person needs to make their own decisions thoughtfully and prayerfully. However, I truly believe that my Heavenly Father cares about my relationships and is concerned with my experiences with sex. He doesn't want me to live in fear of my own sexuality, given to me by Him for righteous purposes. He wants me to recognize that this gift is a part of who I am. He wants me to enjoy sex with my husband and use it as an opportunity for us to grow closer together. He wants me to claim the gift of agency and make choices for myself, rather than acting out of fear. I am grateful for the experiences that I have had as I have sought to understand my sexuality. I know that they have helped me to develop my relationships - with myself, with my friends and family, and with God. I know also that they will impact the way that I teach my children about this topic. While I still appreciate the efforts of youth leaders who impacted my life in many ways for good, I want to better prepare my children to understand this powerful gift from their loving Father in Heaven. I hope that by teaching them differently than I was taught, they may be more prepared to fully enjoy and appreciate the blessing of their sexuality. Full Franscript of Evelyn’s Podcast Interview:0:00:05 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:29 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, we have Evelyn in the studio, who's gonna be talking about her experiences around improving her sexual health through masturbation. A sensitive topic, and I appreciate her coming in and being vulnerable with us today. Evelyn, will you tell us a little bit about yourself?0:00:50 Evelyn: Sure. I am an active member of the church. I enjoy attending every week and with my family. Anything else you wanna know?0:01:06 Daniel: Kids?0:01:07 Evelyn: Kids, I do. I do have a child. I have a daughter.0:01:13 Daniel: How long have you been married?0:01:14 Evelyn: Been married about... A little more than two years.0:01:17 Daniel: Two years. And how old are you?0:01:20 Evelyn: I am 37.0:01:21 Daniel: Thirty-seven. Wow.0:01:23 Evelyn: Well, I did not get married real early.0:01:24 Daniel: No. Well, out here in Silicon Valley, that's a pretty standard age right there.0:01:30 Evelyn: That's true.0:01:31 Daniel: But you married right, which is a great thing.0:01:33 Evelyn: I did.0:01:35 Daniel: So you're coming in here today, and we're gonna be talking about some pretty private and personal things. What's your motivation for doing this? What's your purpose for doing this?0:01:49 Evelyn: I would say my purpose for doing this is that I feel like I've made a lot of progress through the different experiences that I've had. And some of them have been challenging, but I'm in definitely a better place than when I started, and I want to give other people the opportunity to hear about it so that maybe their journey could be a little bit easier.0:02:14 Daniel: That's wonderful. Tell us some of those challenges that you're having.0:02:19 Daniel: Well, I have struggled with anxiety for a lot of my life. I would say that when I was young, it was really challenging for me to kind of manage day-to-day. I had fairly crippling perfectionism and really was very, very worried about how other people perceived me, and that got in my way a lot. When I was in college, I hit a point where I realized that I needed help. I had great parents who helped me see that I needed some support, so I reached out and I got some help. And...0:03:08 Daniel: What kind of help did you get?0:03:10 Evelyn: I started attending therapy, and I also went on medication. So I was able to get better, but I kind of got to a point where I wasn't really making too much progress beyond...0:03:26 Daniel: Did the medication help?0:03:27 Evelyn: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.0:03:29 Daniel: And this was in your college years?0:03:32 Evelyn: Mm-hmm. Yes. The medication definitely helped, and so did the therapy. I was able to talk to a few different therapists, and it was really beneficial. But I guess that by the time I reached adulthood, I had learned how to manage a lot. I had learned a lot of coping skills which were very beneficial. They certainly made a difference in the quality of my life. I was able to calm myself down. I was able to kind of recognize when I might be having an anxiety reaction that was above and beyond the legitimate need based on what was going on. So I developed a lot of those skills, and I've made a lot of progress, but I would still slide back periodically. And I still realized that I hadn't dealt with some of the root issues.0:04:35 Daniel: Now, we're not talking about, "I'm nervous." We're talking about anxiety that was paralyzing.0:04:43 Evelyn: Yes. Yeah. I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, and it definitely was making it so that there were a lot of things that I couldn't do. Interacting with people was particularly difficult.0:05:00 Daniel: Let's talk a little bit more about that. Not only interacting with people, you're going into a profession. You're working. You're living on your own. You're high-functioning. But this was getting in the way, not just of interacting with people, but your job too?0:05:17 Evelyn: Well, I wouldn't say that it was getting in the way of my job performance. It was definitely getting in the way of my job enjoyment.0:05:24 Daniel: Ah, yes. And that's an important clarification right there. So how... If you can put it on a scale, it sounds like it was growing and becoming increasingly worse, and you'd been on medication and during your... Maybe your 20s is what we're talking about now. You're out of college, and it's increasingly getting worse. How bad was it? Tell us a little bit more about that.0:05:52 Evelyn: It depended, I would say, on the time. I would have times that I was... Felt pretty in control of how things were going, but then I would have other times when things would slide backward and I would just not want to do anything. And I would... I would say, externally, everything looked fine.0:06:11 Daniel: Yes.0:06:12 Evelyn: From an outsider's perspective...0:06:13 Daniel: You're good with that.0:06:15 Evelyn: Yes, I am. [chuckle]0:06:17 Daniel: As most... As a lot of people who struggle with anxiety are and who are high-functioning, people don't realize how bad they're suffering inside. And that was the case with you.0:06:28 Evelyn: Yeah.0:06:29 Daniel: Yeah.0:06:30 Evelyn: Yeah. But it became... Yeah, it was really very, very difficult on a day-to-day basis to just carry out the things that I needed to do, to make myself do that. It cost me a lot to go through a day and to make sure that no one knew how I was feeling about everything that I had to do, and just the overwhelming... Sometimes, it was... Sometimes it just felt incredibly devastating. I remember explaining it to my mother one time how I would feel about the future and about how things were going. And she said, "Wow, that sounds like the dementors in Harry Potter."0:07:11 Daniel: Wow.0:07:11 Evelyn: They just suck the joy out of everything.0:07:12 Daniel: Yes. What a perfect visual. Absolutely. And I think that's when I first met you was you were at that point. Dementors had sucked everything out of you.0:07:24 Evelyn: Yup.0:07:25 Daniel: You made a particularly interesting request, though, when you came and saw me. So this is much later, so in your mid-30s. So I think that's important. So for about 15 years since college.0:07:40 Evelyn: Yeah.0:07:41 Daniel: Were you on medication that whole time?0:07:44 Evelyn: Not the whole time, but I would say off and on.0:07:47 Daniel: Okay.0:07:47 Evelyn: A reasonable amount of the time.0:07:49 Daniel: And when you were on medication, it seemed like it was manageable?0:07:53 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:07:55 Daniel: And by the time you came and sought help from me, you were... If I remember right, you were not on medication.0:08:04 Evelyn: Yeah, I did try to not go on medication for a while.0:08:07 Daniel: That was a particular request you actually had.0:08:09 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:08:10 Daniel: You said, "I wanna try to do this without medication."0:08:12 Evelyn: Yes. I ultimately did go back on for some help with sleeping, but...0:08:19 Daniel: But for anxiety?0:08:21 Evelyn: Yeah, for anxiety I think I've made a lot of progress.0:08:23 Daniel: Yes.0:08:24 Evelyn: It still helps, but the biggest reason that I take some now is because it helps with sleep.0:08:30 Daniel: Yes. Well, and you're a new mother too, isn't it so?0:08:33 Evelyn: Well, that's true. Yes.0:08:35 Daniel: A lot of stress is going on. In fact, to that point, with all the stresses that you have, you've been married in the last two years.0:08:42 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:08:42 Daniel: You have a baby in your late 30s.0:08:47 Evelyn: Yep.0:08:47 Daniel: Later 30s. All these life changes. You became accustomed to living alone, or at least independently.0:08:58 Evelyn: Yes. Yes.0:09:00 Daniel: And so you have a lot of stresses in your life in your... I mean, yes, medication for sleeping, which, gosh, I'm on right now. Not to minimize at all what you're experiencing there. But even with all these major life changes, how would you say you're coping?0:09:16 Evelyn: Oh, much better.0:09:18 Daniel: Much better.0:09:18 Evelyn: Much better than I was.0:09:20 Daniel: So you eventually, in your mid-30s, you sought out help again. Had you see seen a therapist since college?0:09:28 Evelyn: Yes.0:09:29 Daniel: Yes, you have?0:09:30 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:09:30 Daniel: And I'm assuming it was somewhat helpful because you're coming again.0:09:33 Evelyn: Yeah. Absolutely.0:09:35 Daniel: And so you're in a new area, you're seeking some support here. Tell us about that. What was that experience like? You're having to reach out. Give me some emotions.0:09:45 Evelyn: Sure. I would say that when I've gone to see a therapist, it has helped. And so I would... I decided that when I reached a point in a new area, I needed to find someone to help me out because with the moving to a new place, it kind of pushed me backward to the point where I really wasn't coping well at all. So I decided that I needed to find somebody, and luckily, I'd met you.0:10:12 Daniel: Okay.0:10:12 Evelyn: So I asked you, and we started talking, and that was really helpful.0:10:21 Daniel: Well, it was interesting at the beginning. We were doing... So one of the first things we did was we tried to explore what's working. And we repeat those and we try to find ways to enhance that or build on the skills that you already knew how to do and do very well. In fact, I do recall a lot that you were, "Yep, familiar with this. I know how to do this." But what we were experiencing, yes, some of the anxiety was being manageable, but it wasn't getting to a point where you're okay. And correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly, it wasn't... We weren't making the progress that I think you were hoping for.0:11:02 Evelyn: Well, I think I kind of got to the point where I thought this is as good as it's gonna get.0:11:08 Daniel: Yes, yes.0:11:10 Evelyn: And I guess this is life. And that's okay. I mean, it's not too bad. I'll just have to do my best and take a day at a time.0:11:16 Daniel: Well, hold on a second. When you say, "It's not too bad," I think we need to put that in context. You've lived a life of anxiety, so you're not too bad. And yeah, don't let me misspeak. I don't wanna put words in your mouth. But I think... To some degree, I think you're minimizing it. You were struggling.0:11:35 Evelyn: Well, yes. I was struggling, but I guess I figured that we reached the point where I had gotten before, which was manageable.0:11:45 Daniel: Manageable. Okay.0:11:47 Evelyn: And figured that this was... What I was going to do was I was going to kind of do a cycle where I could manage it, and then maybe changes in life or something would happen that would increase the stress, and then I would go downhill, and then I would get some help, and then I would bring it back to manageable. And that would kind of be life. But that's as good as I could hope for, so I should make the best of it.0:12:13 Daniel: So what happened from there? Why didn't we just quit, say we succeeded and moved on?0:12:20 Evelyn: Well, that's a good question. I don't know. I think that you brought up some interesting points that I hadn't considered before, and at first I thought that they didn't have anything to do with me.0:12:34 Daniel: Tell us about those points. What points were we bringing up?0:12:37 Evelyn: Well, I remember you bringing up, at one point, just... Well, how do you feel about your sexual health? And I thought, "How should I know?" I think that's what I said. "How should I know?" I was single and being an active temple-attending member of the church. That meant that I didn't really have a sexual life. So it seemed like something that was disconnected.0:13:11 Daniel: It's interesting even now, when you recall this, and you're a lot more informed now, you went immediately to the sexual experiences. I'm not married.0:13:22 Evelyn: Right.0:13:23 Daniel: And so was it even on the forefront of your mind, sexual health, 'cause that was the question that was what was being explored, was much more than just physical intimacy with somebody else. And so even now when you're talking about it goes, you're recalling, right?0:13:40 Evelyn: Oh, yeah. I'm remembering that I didn't really see any other sides to the issue.0:13:46 Daniel: So what was that experience like, coming from your therapist, even a male therapist, what was your experience hearing it come out as even something to be suggested or thought about. And as again, as a male therapist, any thoughts or feelings around all that?0:14:03 Evelyn: I would say that initially I rejected it, and put it aside as something that didn't really apply to me, but it did plant some seeds of thought that I returned to on my own.0:14:21 Daniel: What prompted you to return to it? So that seed was planted.0:14:27 Evelyn: Well, I think one thing that prompted me to return to it was that I think in a session, I actually brought up the idea that I think that this is as good as it's gonna get. This is kind of what I live with, this is... This is how it's going to go, this is how my life's gonna go. And you said I don't buy that. And I thought, well, maybe you're wrong. [laughter]0:14:56 Daniel: You always told me you like forwardness, directness. So, yes, I thought there was much more potential there I didn't think we had to suffer with just manageable. So where did that take your thoughts?0:15:16 Evelyn: Well, I went home and I thought about it and I decided I wanted to give it a try. I guess if you always do what you've always done then you're gonna always get what you've always gotten. So...0:15:30 Daniel: Give what a try?0:15:33 Evelyn: Exploring other ideas, sexual health was one of them. But you did kind of bring up this idea of wholeness.0:15:41 Daniel: Yes.0:15:43 Evelyn: And that there's just so many sides of me as a person and to make some goals in all these different areas.0:15:51 Daniel: Yep, I think so, good memory on that. That's definitely what we do is try to approach it from a wholeness. All too often we get focused on, "Okay, I have anxiety. So just give me the skills and techniques to manage it."0:16:07 Evelyn: Exactly.0:16:08 Daniel: But if there's a possibility to... I'm not gonna say eliminate, I don't think we eliminate anxiety. Everybody experiences anxiety every day at some sort of level, but get to a point where you can actually be proactive about it, or thrive or get it to a point where the management is much, much less, and so we have to step outside of just the managing anxiety aspect, we have to focus on the mental, the spiritual, the physical side of this. And so I think I, well, I'm remembering this because it's a standard procedure I do, I think I even recommended, let's get your blood work done, let's get you... Make sure everything's fine physically, biologically, but this has been around for a long time, and so, this isn't a new... It wasn't like you're coming into a new biological stage of life, although that could have been possible, but we wanted to rule those things out. And so, one thing that you've never explored was that sexual aspect, is my sexual health good and can this be part of the problem?0:17:15 Evelyn: That one was brand new, and some of the other ones were not brand new. Thinking about them altogether was a little bit new, but I'd certainly worked on myself spiritually, I'd worked on myself mentally, I had focused on exercise, and eating right and I mean, all of those things were things that I had done before. Looking at it as a holistic perspective was a little bit different, but they weren't different ideas. It was the sexual health piece that was the different piece, and it felt like it didn't fit. But now when I look back, it feels like... It feels odd to assume that something that's so much an important part of myself would not be a puzzle piece whereas everything else would be, but it was the only piece of it that I had never explored before.0:18:06 Daniel: Looking back now, what do you think was making it feel like it didn't fit?0:18:12 Evelyn: I would say that I had worked pretty hard to make it not a part of myself.0:18:21 Daniel: Yes.0:18:22 Evelyn: And that was in an effort to be as good as possible.0:18:33 Daniel: Tell us more about that, what does that mean? So first of all, the fact that you're saying you worked as hard as you could for it not be a part of... I feel like there's some insinuation going on there. Was this something that you may have or tempted to be struggling with or tempted...0:18:49 Evelyn: I would say that I... Well, to go back when I was young, I discovered that I could stimulate myself.0:19:00 Daniel: How young are we talking about?0:19:00 Evelyn: Oh, maybe between 10 and 12.0:19:02 Daniel: Okay. Entering your teen years, yep, yep.0:19:05 Evelyn: So pretty young, accidentally... And explored it a little bit and...0:19:13 Daniel: Talking about masturbation?0:19:14 Evelyn: Yes. Didn't really have any idea of what I was doing, honestly. I went to youth meetings and things where they would tell you that you should not masturbate. And I didn't have any idea that these things were connected at all.0:19:37 Daniel: Oh, so in those youth meetings, you weren't realizing that's what was happening?0:19:40 Evelyn: Correct. I had no idea what masturbation really was.0:19:43 Daniel: You were just hearing this terminology and you were like, "Oh, okay, I'm not gonna do this."0:19:46 Evelyn: Yeah, absolutely not. It was clearly a bad thing, I was not gonna do it.0:19:50 Daniel: So at what point did you realize what you were doing between 10 and 12 was actually what they were saying don't do?0:19:57 Evelyn: Well, I did it occasionally.0:20:01 Daniel: In your teen years?0:20:02 Evelyn: In my teen years. It wasn't actually until I picked up a teen magazine that was sitting on a table at the library sometime around the age of maybe 14-15, something like that, that the magazine actually gave me a clear enough definition of masturbation that I was able to make the connection.0:20:22 Daniel: Interesting. So, what were you experiencing when you had that connection?0:20:26 Evelyn: I was devastated, I was completely devastated. And...0:20:31 Daniel: About how old were you at this time?0:20:34 Evelyn: I would say maybe 15.0:20:37 Speaker 1: 15. Pretty young.0:20:39 Evelyn: So I just... I felt incredibly ashamed and that I had managed to do something so terrible without even realizing that I was doing it.0:20:50 Daniel: So how did you respond to that?0:20:55 Evelyn: I think that's when I started to try to avoid any...0:21:02 Daniel: It became an active suppressing.0:21:06 Evelyn: Yes, yeah, that was when I kind of began the process of trying to avoid any accidental, 'cause I did my best to avoid any masturbation, but I also tried to avoid any reading something that might accidentally make my mind go that direction. I mean, I was really working hard.0:21:30 Daniel: Totally shut it off?0:21:32 Evelyn: Mm-hmm. Yes.0:21:34 Daniel: And in all intents and purposes, that's really what the ideal was communicated in these youth meetings, don't stim... I mean, for the strength of youth, right?0:21:40 Evelyn: Yes.0:21:40 Daniel: And so you've spent from 15 on when you discovered, made the connection with this magazine, and your behavior and these youth meetings. Well, was there any kind of formal repentance or did you discuss this with leadership?0:21:57 Evelyn: Not at that point, but I did about when I was a freshman in college. So about the age of 17.0:22:04 Daniel: Is that because you were struggling with it or...0:22:06 Evelyn: Yeah, I would say I hadn't been able to 100% cut it off, so I didn't...0:22:12 Daniel: But this wasn't like a daily thing for you, it was like...0:22:15 Evelyn: No.0:22:16 Daniel: Once in a blue moon kind of.0:22:16 Evelyn: It was occasional. Yeah. It was occasional.0:22:18 Daniel: Wanting to clear the air with the bishop.0:22:21 Evelyn: Or, and sometimes it wasn't even physical stimulation, maybe it was just mental. My thoughts might go a different direction, but I would find myself feeling stimulated so it wasn't...0:22:30 Daniel: So when you say you worked hard.0:22:32 Evelyn: I did.0:22:32 Daniel: Not only your sexual arousal but your thoughts, your feelings, all around it.0:22:37 Evelyn: Well I... Yeah, I felt that sometimes I would have thoughts that would lead me toward arousal, and I would feel some physical response, thoughts that I was having or something that I might read or anything like that. And so I...0:22:54 Daniel: So you're a completely different person today because I remember when you first would even start to... I don't even think you would say the word masturbation.0:23:03 Evelyn: No, I didn't say the word masturbation for a long time.0:23:06 Daniel: Even I think maybe eventually you did with me. I don't remember exactly the timeline, but even your mind going there, there was a clear anxiety being provoked.0:23:17 Evelyn: Oh, very much so, yes.0:23:19 Daniel: And did you notice that at the time or was that even something that you were physically aware that was happening? You literally really physically changed.0:23:28 Evelyn: Yeah, I think I'm aware of it. Yeah.0:23:31 Daniel: Prior to 15, I realize we're going back 15, 20 years. Do you feel like before you made this discovery, that you were masturbating, that your anxiety was as severe?0:23:48 Evelyn: It was not. However, I couldn't necessarily say whether that was because of this discovery.0:23:55 Daniel: Absolutely, and I wanna be careful with that...0:23:57 Evelyn: 'Cause I think it...0:24:00 Daniel: Again, 15-20 years ago, we don't know.0:24:00 Evelyn: Right. I think it grew for who knows how many different factors.0:24:05 Daniel: As you're entering puberty too, that's... Or you're well into puberty. Yeah. So all these feelings are coming up which could add to... So yeah, clear, I'm not making any... I can't go there and say that was the cause of it. But now you're in your 20s, you're in your 30s, you've spent 15-20 years going on and off medication, managing. Now we start to explore this. And one thing I really appreciated about you is usually I have a... My clients fall into one of maybe three different categories: One, when we explore... I have seven principles that I explore and that includes mental health, spiritual health, physical health, sexual health, so forth. And usually when we get to the sexual health part, especially with single adults, I get one of maybe three different reactions, one is, oh, no, they never even... Even just mentioning, how is your sexual health? It's very rare, but sometimes I get them... They'll never even come back.0:25:07 Daniel: So I'll get some people who are like, okay, whatever it takes, and then we get people that I think are more like you. I need to think about this. And I really, really value that, because that's part of therapy is getting you to be that individual and you have no problem with differentiating from other people, and so that didn't surprise me, but the thought process, both spiritual and mental, that you put into it was impressive, and I admired, I fully admired how you approach this. You didn't just say, "Whatever you say, Dan. Let's figure this out," and for you as somebody who wanted to get rid of your anxiety, you didn't just jump on and say... So tell us... I'll stop talking there, but you tell us what that process was like from your end. That's what I observed.0:26:00 Evelyn: Okay, sure. Well, after I kind of went through college, when I didn't see a bishop and talked through everything and then no more, I'd really cut off that part of myself as much as possible. No, sexuality is not really a part of who I am. I need to focus on the spiritual, I need to focus on the mental, I can focus on the physical. Those are all okay, but this other part is something that I'm just saving for until after I'm married. Then we came to the point where you brought it up and asked me to make a goal and I started very small.0:26:45 Daniel: Yes.0:26:46 Evelyn: I said I will think about it. I will think about sex for a few minutes. I feel comfortable going that far, but thinking about it started me wondering if there might be something that was missing in my life, and I still didn't connect it to anxiety, not really, but I thought as long as I was working on everything else, maybe I would continue to work in this area as well, and...0:27:22 Daniel: What started to happen? So we're talking about, and I put a timeline in just to give an appreciation, it's not that it was fast or slow or anything like that, but we're talking about months. You were taking...0:27:38 Evelyn: It started to happen, yeah.0:27:40 Daniel: Yeah, so what was the process? You started...0:27:42 Evelyn: Okay.0:27:42 Daniel: So let's explain the thinking about sex a little bit more there. The goal there, do you recall what it was? I'm not, I don't mean to put you on the spot.0:27:52 Evelyn: Do I recall what it was? I remember that there was a goal in every area, and that the one that I felt like I could do was I would think about this issue.0:28:00 Daniel: Being aware of your own sexuality, what are your own desires and thoughts, getting... So the goal was to get in tune, in connection with yourself, your sexual identity, what does that look like? And what does that feel like? And so you started to explore that a little bit more.0:28:19 Evelyn: Yeah, and it was not fast at, it was not a fast process for me, but what I started to notice was that beginning to recognize this piece of myself changed. The first thing I think I noticed it changing was my interactions with other people. I started to feel more open and able to communicate with people. I had a roommate, we'd lived together for some time and we got along reasonably well, but we were just roommates. I mean, kind of ships passing in the night, and one day I started talking with her and our relationship began to grow and to change. And...0:29:13 Daniel: You talking, you mean just casual conversations.0:29:16 Evelyn: At first, yeah, but then eventually, we started talking about deeper things, and discovering that we had more in common than we thought.0:29:26 Daniel: I think it's important, I think you, we alluded to it with the anxiety but part of this, I think the audience should understand is how much of an introvert you are.0:29:35 Evelyn: Oh, very.0:29:36 Daniel: And so just talking with your roommate, you liked your roommate, this had nothing to do with personalities or anything, just you're on probably the higher end of being an introvert than most introverts. And so just having this conversation, how do you feel that was connected to your exploring your sexuality?0:29:55 Evelyn: Well, at the time, I didn't understand it at all, it didn't make sense to me, it was just an observation. So if we're kind of going on the journey, at the time I was noticing that this was happening more and more, but I wasn't clear how it connected.0:30:18 Daniel: So at this time, you're not masturbating, you're...0:30:20 Evelyn: No, just thinking.0:30:20 Daniel: Just explain... What is my sexual identity. Let's just call it that, and doing that, opening that up was starting to allow you to open up to other people.0:30:37 Evelyn: If I'm going to reflect from a position of having travelled a long way from where I was.0:30:44 Daniel: Yes.0:30:45 Evelyn: I think it has something to do with that wholeness piece. There was a part of myself that I was hiding and I was hiding it even from myself. That was my goal, was to hide it even from myself, and because I was hiding it, I felt vulnerable so much of the time, I felt so nervous and yes, I am an introvert and that hasn't changed.0:31:13 Daniel: No.0:31:14 Evelyn: I will continue to be one. But I was so afraid of being found out almost that I had this piece of myself, that was hidden and I...0:31:26 Daniel: Your sexual self.0:31:27 Evelyn: Right. But it's not like I could have pinpointed that that was why I was nervous in any way, but I think that the fact that I was fragmenting myself a little bit, and keeping...0:31:40 Daniel: That's a great way to say it, yeah.0:31:42 Evelyn: Keeping a part of myself away even from me, increased my anxiety and increased the difficulty that I had interacting with people, I was always so nervous, I was very hypersensitive about the reactions that other people were giving me. And anything that seemed negative I took on myself very, very deeply, and...0:32:08 Daniel: We're talking like at work, your social life, at church events, every interaction, even talking with your roommate, you're...0:32:17 Evelyn: Yeah, I was always looking for any negative signs, anything that was wrong, and trying to fit myself into something that would never, ever receive a negative, negative feedback of any kind from anybody, which is so hard to do that pretty much it involved trying to avoid interactions.0:32:37 Daniel: Absolutely. So tell us more. You're starting to explore your sexual identity. Now that you're looking back, you didn't know at the time how or why that would have a positive impact on even your interaction and in minimizing this.0:32:53 Evelyn: I found it confusing, honestly.0:32:54 Daniel: So what did you do with that confusion?0:32:56 Evelyn: Well, I felt like I don't know why this is working, but it seems to be.0:33:05 Daniel: So you were seeing results.0:33:06 Evelyn: Yes, I was seeing results.0:33:07 Daniel: Right.0:33:07 Evelyn: I was seeing positive interactions. I was finding myself... I mean, I bring up the roommate, but there were other indications too. I mean, at work, I found myself willing to step forward a little bit more and disagree with people at times and tell them things that I thought as opposed to what I thought they were looking for.0:33:28 Daniel: This was an impressive time, because your anxiety for the first time that we're seeing wasn't just managed and reduced, your confidence was increasing.0:33:36 Evelyn: Right. Yeah. I felt very different. I have a sister-in-law that I've come to have quite a good relationship with at this point, but I will say that the first, quite a lot of years of my brother's marriage to her, I was terrified of her, because she has a tendency to give negative feedback unintentionally.0:33:58 Daniel: She was feeding the cycle.0:34:00 Evelyn: Yeah. So, I mean, I just thought she hated me. Every time I was in the room, I would just feel... My heart would be pounding and my stomach would be tight and I would be so nervous, because I felt like there was no way that I could get the right feedback from her, and I found myself... She came in one day and said something, and I could have easily taken it the wrong way, and I thought, "I don't think she means anything by that."0:34:25 Daniel: Interesting.0:34:27 Evelyn: And just kind of let it go, and opened the door to actually having a positive relationship with her, because I was no longer living in this place where I was always, always worried about what other people thought of me.0:34:46 Daniel: So why didn't you end it there? You got success you haven't had before. What made you go to the next step?0:34:55 Evelyn: Well, I would say that the first thing that made me go the next step was that you suggested that I might wanna consider masturbation. And I thought that was a terrible idea.[laughter]0:35:08 Daniel: What was going through... In this experience, what was happening?0:35:13 Evelyn: Well, you mentioned it and I...0:35:17 Daniel: Now, let's be clear, I wanna... For the audience to understand it. This wasn't, "Go home and do this."0:35:23 Evelyn: No.0:35:24 Daniel: So, what was the invitation, do you recall?0:35:27 Evelyn: I think you said something like, "Have you ever considered or tried masturbation? Has that ever been a part of your exploration?" I don't remember your words exactly, but it was somewhere along those lines.0:35:44 Daniel: Yup. And I think that was pretty close, 'cause at that point where I started to see more anxiety come up from what we know now, was from your teenage years and it's like, "Woah," so that seed was planted, what happened from there?0:36:00 Evelyn: Well, I didn't wanna dismiss it out of hand, because I was interacting with someone that I had respect for, and that I had seen positive success from what we'd been working on so far. At the same time, I was pretty terrified that it might destroy my relationship with my Heavenly Father, because that always has been and remains one of the most important relationships in my life.0:36:34 Daniel: And still is.0:36:35 Evelyn: Yeah, and still is. And I wanted to make sure that I didn't ever engage in anything that would impact that negatively. So, I was kind of torn between this fear of harming that relationship, and considering the progress that I've made.0:37:03 Daniel: Yes.0:37:03 Evelyn: And that trusting you in the past had led to some positive things.0:37:09 Daniel: You were trusting yourself.0:37:12 Evelyn: And that's true, I was. But it was your idea that I should explore sexual health in some way.0:37:20 Daniel: That's correct.[chuckle]0:37:23 Evelyn: So, I did have that on my mind too. So trying to balance those things, I went back and forth a lot. And...0:37:35 Daniel: What does back and forth mean? What were you doing...0:37:38 Evelyn: Back and forth as in, "Maybe I should try this, wonder what would happen, I wonder how that would impact me? Nope, never gonna do it. Nope, that would be a terrible thing."0:37:48 Daniel: Talk about your relationship with the Lord in this process, how did you include or not include Him?0:37:58 Evelyn: I definitely prayed, and my prayer was something along the lines of help me not do something that I will regret, and help me let... Help let me know if I'm going to do something that would be detrimental to our relationship. So there were a lot of prayers like that. I would say, I didn't feel a lot one way or the other at that point, as far as an answer to that prayer.0:38:26 Daniel: Was that confusing to you?0:38:29 Evelyn: Not terribly. I think that I've gotten some clear answers in my life and a lot of times that I've been encouraged to figure things out myself.0:38:40 Daniel: So is that what you did?0:38:45 Evelyn: Yeah, at least at that moment, and what I did...0:38:47 Daniel: So, what... Yup.0:38:49 Evelyn: Was I decided I was not going to masturbate, and I came back and I told you that. And I felt wonderful.0:39:02 Daniel: Yes, you did, you were glowing.0:39:06 Evelyn: And... Yeah.0:39:07 Daniel: I remember that, and I praised you for that. What was the focus of my praise? Do you recall?0:39:15 Evelyn: I don't recall.0:39:16 Daniel: You made the decision.0:39:18 Evelyn: Well, that's... I mean, I think that that for me was the thing that I came to. Yeah, I mean, it was the first decision I had ever really made, sexually, in my life.0:39:30 Daniel: Yes. That's exactly right. And that was one of the indicators to me, 'cause as you're just talking about a lot of your life, your lot of... What was feeding your anxiety was what... The impressions of what other people were having on you or at least your interpretation of their responses to you.0:39:48 Evelyn: Yes.0:39:50 Daniel: And...0:39:51 Evelyn: A lot of it was interpretation.0:39:53 Daniel: And what you were just saying also about me, you respected me, both as a... And that's something I take... I don't take lightly, as a therapist, and... Especially within our faith, how do we guide individuals to healthy living while also maintaining their level of faith, their love of God, and supporting them in those areas of their life? And you didn't just do this because I recommended it. You came back with a decision, you prayed about it, you pondered about it, you researched about it, and you came in and you were glowing. Now, this was your choice, and that was amazing.0:40:41 Evelyn: Yeah. Yeah, the making of the choice was a claiming of my agency in regards to sexuality that I had never made before. Everything I'd done prior to that point was an effort to please somebody else, really.0:41:02 Daniel: Even suppressing your sexual health?0:41:04 Evelyn: Yes, yes.0:41:07 Daniel: That is huge. And I can't... I mean, we're exploring this in the environment of the therapeutic office, but I had seen this, this wasn't a new occurrence, I had seen this over and over, where people had abandoned their agency around their sexual health and the same or similar things occurred. So this was not new to me, but to see it come out of you was just this light bulb moment. So, what did we do from there? What's... We were done with therapy, right? You were perfect, you're healthy.0:41:43 Evelyn: Yeah, isn't that great?[chuckle]0:41:45 Daniel: And end of story, right?[chuckle]0:41:47 Evelyn: Of course. [chuckle] Well, I mean, what you did at that point was say, "Okay, that's your decision. Go with that."0:41:57 Daniel: Yes.0:42:00 Evelyn: But I kind of continued to think about it, and I think that I felt so freed by the fact that I owned this part of myself, that I...0:42:16 Daniel: Was it scary owning it?0:42:20 Evelyn: No, actually.0:42:23 Daniel: That's interesting. The audience can't see her, she's glowing right now [chuckle] when she responds to that. [chuckle] Tell us more about that. Why was that not scary? This thing was scary all your life.0:42:37 Evelyn: It was scary on my life and I thought it would be scary, you know? I mean, I thought it would be terrifying, because it had worried me so much, and had been... I mean, I would have such a physical response even to the word masturbation, if anyone else ever said it, I would just feel... I would kind of start to sweat and I'd feel my stomach tighten up and I'd feel just... All my muscles kind of get tight, which was why I couldn't say it. I would dance around the term as much as possible. It was so frightening to me and yet when I made that decision, I was very nervous to tell you. I'll tell you that. I mean, when I came in...0:43:27 Daniel: I noticed and I...0:43:28 Evelyn: Yeah.[chuckle]0:43:28 Daniel: Absolutely. Hopefully I came across very respectful?0:43:32 Evelyn: You did, you did. But I mean, that part was nervous...0:43:34 Daniel: Of course.0:43:36 Evelyn: But nerve-racking, but when I made the decision and then when I moved on to owning it, it lost its fear. I mean, I lost so much fear around that, and I gained so much confidence to make decisions in other areas of my life too, I think.0:43:58 Daniel: How much of that was or was any of it, the fact that you're working with a male therapist or was it just the nature of the topic? Did me being a male therapist enhance that nervousness?0:44:12 Evelyn: Well, probably. Yeah, it probably did.0:44:15 Daniel: How did you navigate that or how did you resolve that? Or was it a factor that you felt like you had to address?0:44:24 Evelyn: I didn't really resolve or address. I think it probably did increase my anxiety a bit around it, made it more nerve-racking than it would have been with a woman, but I didn't really... I mean, it wasn't so overwhelming that I really had resolve it, I think.0:44:46 Daniel: The ability to speak it, to vocalize it was freeing.0:44:50 Evelyn: Yes, it really was.0:44:54 Daniel: So you made your decision, you are... You have no need to masturbate, you owned it, your health was improved and we were done with therapy.0:45:05 Evelyn: No, no, we weren't.[laughter]0:45:07 Daniel: So take it to the next step, what's happening?0:45:13 Evelyn: So the next step was continuing. I continued to work on some of those goals, I was thinking, I was reading, I was studying, I was considering and pondering and praying, and all of those kinds of things, and then I really felt like, actually, I do wanna understand my body, I wanna understand my desire, I want to better understand this whole piece of myself and I made the decision that I did want to try masturbation.0:45:48 Daniel: I want the audience to understand how thorough you are, 'cause if somebody doesn't know you and hearing what you just said, you continued to think about it. They don't understand how much of a... Exaggeration, that is.0:46:07 Evelyn: Think about it for me.0:46:09 Daniel: You read every book there was.0:46:11 Evelyn: I did, yeah.0:46:12 Daniel: You scoured the internet, you... Both religious materials, sexual health, you picked up books like And They Were Not Ashamed and you dove right in.0:46:24 Evelyn: Read about half a dozen different books cover to cover.0:46:27 Daniel: You're taking the doctrine covenants to heart, read and study and ponder. So I think it's important for the audience, because they don't know you. And so when I hear that you're pondering this, I know that you are diving and this is beyond just thinking.0:46:42 Evelyn: I am a researcher.0:46:44 Daniel: Yes, you are.0:46:45 Evelyn: When I got a cat about 15 years ago or so, I spent a good three days researching all the different names that I might actually name the cat before coming to a decision. If anyone wants to know what product that they should buy that I've already bought, they just ask me, because I have done all the research, I have read 15 different articles, about the 10 best and then looked at what they all had in common and then compared the pros and cons. I am an extremely careful person.0:47:19 Daniel: So you went into this well aware of what the church leadership, what the culture is, what you've read, but you're feeling that this... I'm gonna put the word positive desire, or desire to explore this, and when I say desire, it's not just arousal desire. Go ahead, tell us more about that.0:47:45 Evelyn: I would say it wasn't arousal desire at that point, it was a desire for increased understanding. That's what I was looking for was a fuller understanding of myself, and I prayed more and again, there was a lot of I'm feeling good about this decision, and if it's not right, please help me to know that. I really, I really didn't take it lightly.0:48:20 Daniel: Yeah, so what was your answer, what did you end up doing?0:48:29 Evelyn: I felt good about it, and so I decided that I would try masturbation and see what happened, and so I did and I felt that understanding, what I was looking for, I felt more in tune with myself, and it wasn't even primarily arousal, it was more that this was a better knowledge of who I am as a person. This is what my body can do, this is the gifts that I've been given, this is... This whole body is a gift and I would like to understand it better. And now I do. So that was, that was more what it was about for me, I think, than it was arousal and orgasm, it was who am I? And I did feel like I developed my relationship with myself.0:49:39 Daniel: What... I realize you're not even thinking about this, but I know the audience is listening and wondering maybe pornography was not involved.0:49:50 Evelyn: No.0:49:51 Daniel: This is a self-understanding. This was so huge. You connected with yourself, with the Spirit. I don't wanna misuse any terminology here, but you seem to increase in your wellness.0:50:13 Evelyn: Yeah, I would say that... I wouldn't go so far as to say that masturbation was in and of itself a spiritual experience for me. However, what I would say is that as I became more aware of myself that led to things in my life that led to increased spirituality. For example, the appreciation of my body and of the gift that I have received through my body, what I found myself doing was becoming offended by TV shows that made light of sexuality, that had previously not had that impact on me. Previously, I could watch these shows, they really kind of just... Some of these jokes just washed over me. It was just the way that jokes are, and yet suddenly they were bothering me more because they were making light of this thing that was a gift, and so I began to change my media habits and that kind of thing I do think led to overall increased spirituality for me.0:51:28 Daniel: You're being able to own your own sexuality, you start to have more confidence around people interacting and socializing more, now understanding your physical self, your sexual self physically, you're starting to have a more profound appreciation for how sex is represented in media, that is profound, that is a response that you... I don't think everybody has that response. And I don't wanna set this up as though you go out and masturbate, and you're gonna reject all forms of unhealthy sex. But this is key. This is, I think, part of your personality and was part of your healing and growing into your whole self, and that was a part of your personality you don't want to be exposed to that, you want to appreciate what God has given you. And the media was a distraction to that. Am I understanding that right?0:52:28 Evelyn: Yeah, I would say that, yeah, that's pretty solid. I think it was, for me personally, in my experience, it was before the different little jokes and things like that. They didn't mean anything to me because it wasn't even...0:52:51 Daniel: On your radar.0:52:53 Evelyn: A part of me. But now suddenly it was a part of me, it was impacting me and I felt like I needed to make those changes, so certainly not something I would expect of everybody, but in my personal journey, that's how it went.0:53:08 Daniel: So, you're emotionally understanding your sexual health, you're physically understanding it, now we're good. Your life is great, is that true?0:53:18 Evelyn: Well, my life is different.0:53:20 Daniel: It is different. I think there was some more progress going on there and some new skills that you were learning.0:53:29 Evelyn: Well, I'll insert another person at this point, which is that this is about the point that I met my husband, and I think that this process kind of prepared me for meeting him, because I was able to talk to him. We were able to discuss things. When we started, I was more comfortable, I was less concerned about what he was thinking about me than I had been in previous relationships where, who knows if they might have worked out or not otherwise, but one reason they definitely weren't going to work out was because I wasn't myself in them, I was too concerned about the way I was being perceived, so I'd reached the point where I was not feeling that in that same way, it was more like, "This is who I am. And let's see if we happen to be compatible and if we're not, it's not a judgement on me, you can go find somebody else."0:54:35 Daniel: You were much more relaxed about this relationship.0:54:37 Evelyn: So more relaxed, yes, than I had been in previous relationships.0:54:42 Daniel: It's interesting 'cause I can't recall if we've ever had this conversation, because I was on the outside looking at as you're sharing your meeting your now husband, and I was wondering the same things, if this, if your ability to understand yourself was helping. It seems like it would be logical, but not necessarily, it doesn't always happen this way, but that was transferring well into your relationship with him.0:55:07 Evelyn: It was... Yeah, I think the biggest one really was that I liked myself. Not every single tiny little bit of myself.0:55:18 Daniel: But you valued...0:55:20 Evelyn: But in general. I thought I was...0:55:22 Daniel: You were no more rejecting parts of yourself.0:55:24 Evelyn: Yeah, exactly.0:55:25 Daniel: And the things that you were not liking, because this isn't about liking every single thing about you. I think that's a beautiful thing if you can do that. Reality is, we're human and we're imperfect and there's gonna be things about ourselves that we don't always love. And you were able to acknowledge those parts without shaming it, without suppressing it, including... I'm talking other things besides just the sexual health part. And so that was making you a more whole person able to interact with your now husband better.0:55:58 Daniel: Definitely. So we got to know each other and we went from levels of just getting to know each other to having more deep conversations. I felt like I was able to be more vulnerable, and he was too. And then we were eventually able to talk about some of these issues, and that also brought us closer and helped me.0:56:26 Daniel: You mean before you married? Are you talking about your issues around anxiety and using masturbation as a coping mechanism, or understanding...0:56:37 Evelyn: Not really a coping mechanism, but that I had had anxiety, that I'd tried different things, we talked about that. We did talk about sexuality before marriage.0:56:47 Daniel: Which is something you would never done before.0:56:49 Evelyn: No, I really wouldn't have, I don't think I would have been able to, but I had the vocabulary, and this wasn't like early in our relationship.0:56:58 Daniel: No, no, no, you guys were... This was clearly at a point that you guys were committed.0:57:03 Evelyn: Yes. Before we discussed, anything that deep, but...0:57:08 Daniel: So at this point, let's backtrack just a little bit here. With the use of masturbation, was this a one or two time occurrence, or was this something that you now incorporated into a healthy routine or part of your life? What was it for you?0:57:25 Evelyn: I'm gonna say somewhere in between those two. It wasn't something that was a routine. Every so often I would masturbate but I wasn't afraid of that either. And so at times I would choose to do that.0:57:45 Daniel: You recognized the benefits and you were able to use it as... Is that fair to say?0:57:50 Evelyn: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's here to say.0:57:53 Daniel: So, the reason when I bring that up, is you now have this additional tool, if you will, in your skill set and understanding yourself and also addressing anxiety. I'm going to assume, I know, but you're dating your husband. How is the stress level? How's your anxiety? Does it ever spike again or what do you deal... How do you deal with your anxiety?0:58:21 Evelyn: I would say that when we got really close to getting married, I got really anxious. Luckily, I was able to talk about it because I have a husband who's really good at communicating and so he is able to ask me about things, and then I was able to tell him, so I was able to talk about how I was feeling, and the communication reduced my anxiety.0:58:51 Daniel: Which is something you wouldn't have done before, talk, you would have...0:58:55 Evelyn: Talking was not one of my management strategies for anxiety.0:59:02 Daniel: Even though you knew it would help. So that was one of the things that you struggled with. But being able to have the confidence now, and reduced anxiety, or at least anxiety to a level that you can now engage in that conversation, but your pattern in the past was to shut down, become more independent. And would you... In the past, how would you have handled that fear of getting married, how would that have played out?0:59:32 Evelyn: Okay, well, I would have run away. And I guess I wanna correct the no talking, because it's not that I wouldn't talk to anybody, but I wouldn't talk to the person.0:59:45 Daniel: Yes, a good clarification, yes.0:59:48 Evelyn: And I would just run and hide. When I was in college I knew where all of the women's bathrooms were that were really comfortable and had couches in them, because should I be avoiding someone who I was dating who was causing me anxiety, I would spend a lot of time there, because I knew that that was not a place they would go. So running away was a strategy that I used and would probably have been what I would have done. Just run away.1:00:21 Daniel: So you got married?1:00:22 Evelyn: I did.1:00:23 Daniel: Yes, and now, you're having sex?1:00:30 Evelyn: Uh-huh.1:00:32 Daniel: How did the things you learned before marriage help you or not help you in your sex life?1:00:39 Evelyn: Oh, boy, they helped me, but there was a long way to go.1:00:45 Daniel: So it wasn't automatic, you now...1:00:47 Evelyn: No way.1:00:49 Daniel: And part of this also is you're learning yourself in a later phase of your life, and so this is... Even if you're learning earlier on there's no comparison to having another intimate person in your sexual life. And so as much as you're comfortable tell us about the... What are some obstacles you had to face and how did you use these skills to help you through it?1:01:14 Evelyn: Okay, well, the major obstacle that we ran into was that sex was very painful for me. And I think that if I had not had the experiences prior to marriage that I had, I would have had no idea what to do from there. I would either have completely cut off sex and decided that that was not something we could do, or honestly, more likely I would have continued to say yes but absolutely hated it and felt every experience being something that pushed me farther away rather than bringing me closer to my husband.1:02:03 Daniel: So you mentioned painful sex?1:02:05 Evelyn: Yes.1:02:06 Daniel: You later found out through a medical check-up what that was and something that a lot of people still don't understand. Do you mind talking about that?1:02:13 Evelyn: No, I don't mind at all. I guess this goes back to how my prior experiences helped me, because I was willing to talk about it and so we had a lot of conversations, my husband and I, and I really felt committed to figuring out what was going on, and part of that was going to see the doctor. So I made an appointment with my OBGYN.1:02:37 Daniel: You knew something was wrong, whereas before, you may not have, you just might have thought, "Okay, this is just what sex is."1:02:44 Evelyn: Yeah, I might have. I mean, that would have been devastating, but yeah, I might have, but I did know that wasn't what it was supposed to be like, and I went and I spoke with the doctor, and she did some checking, and she said that I had vaginismus and she prescribed some physical therapy, so I was able to go and work with a physical therapist weekly for several months.1:03:20 Daniel: These involved dilators?1:03:20 Evelyn: Mm-hmm. Yeah, we did dilators, we did massage, which not as fun as the other kind of massage, sorry, but was helpful. [chuckle]1:03:30 Daniel: Not With a physical therapist. But it was helpful.1:03:34 Evelyn: It was helpful.1:03:35 Daniel: Joking aside, it was helpful.1:03:37 Evelyn: All joking aside, it was helpful, because I started to gradually get to work on the physical part. I didn't enjoy using the dilators at all.1:03:48 Daniel: No. I can't even imagine.1:03:49 Evelyn: Not very fun, but I could put on a TV show or something like that, and distract myself a little bit.1:03:56 Daniel: So the physical therapist... Way to be, way to order support there. The dilators, the physical therapist, did that help resolve the pain?1:04:10 Evelyn: It definitely made significant progress toward it, but it was incomplete without the communication.1:04:17 Daniel: Was masturbation involved in this at all?1:04:21 Evelyn: Little bit, yeah.1:04:22 Daniel: So in your marriage, you're using masturbation.1:04:25 Evelyn: Well, what I used it for, I would say at that point, was to assist me with the physical therapy.1:04:32 Daniel: Yes. That would make sense.1:04:35 Evelyn: Because it did help there.1:04:35 Daniel: Warm things up. Yeah.1:04:37 Evelyn: Yeah, exactly.1:04:39 Daniel: What about other times in your marriage, do you... Was masturbation used as a...1:04:45 Evelyn: Hasn't been, really. Not that it never would be, but we've done other things.1:04:51 Daniel: Good.[chuckle]1:04:57 Evelyn: I feel like the physical aspects were part of it, and so I was able to work on those, but the other piece of it that was really important was being able to work on the psychological and talk and go slow and be patient and enjoy whatever it is that we can enjoy, what pieces of it, as we continue to develop.1:05:23 Daniel: Evelyn, you've been so open here, and I assure you there are many listening to this who maybe even in tears, just feeling comforted from the words that you're using. Is there any, as we're wrapping up here, any advice that you would specifically give young women maybe who were in your shoes as a teenager or currently are, or anyone, what advice would you give?1:05:54 Evelyn: Well, I think something that I would like to have been able to tell my younger self is that, that feeling arousal is something that happens to people, and I felt so alone because of the way that it was being talked about, and I don't want to villainize any of the wonderful people that I got to work with as a youth, because they were incredible leaders. They touched my life and they blessed my life in so many ways, and they were absolutely doing the best that they could. Having said that, though, no one ever told me that feeling arousal is something that people experience and that it is not a sin, and it's just something that happens because that's the way we're built.1:06:58

0:00:05 Daniel: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess, is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:29 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today we have on the line, Anarie. And she will be sharing with us, her personal experiences around porn addiction in her relationship, and her experiences with addiction recovery treatment. Welcome to the show, Anarie.0:00:49 Anarie: Thanks Daniel.0:00:51 Daniel: Tell us a little bit about yourself. Give us some details, who are you, and tell us a little bit about your experience?0:01:00 Anarie: Hey. I am in my early 30s. I'm an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have two kids, ages eight and five. I was married for 11 years. We were married in a temple. And we had our divorce finalized about four months ago, and separated about a year ago. So, that's kinda where I'm at.0:01:24 Daniel: This is pretty recent and fresh. And I appreciate you, even with that, coming on and sharing your experiences here. Give us a little background on the... You shared with me that, was it your husband or you, who is experiencing the issues around pornography? Let's start there.0:01:47 Anarie: It was my husband.0:01:48 Daniel: Your husband. And how long into the marriage or before the marriage did you know that there was a problem?0:01:55 Anarie: So, we dated for about nine months before we got married. A pretty short time. Looking back at the time, it seemed like a long time. But about two months into our dating, kind of the time when we went fairly exclusive, he told me that he had had struggles with pornography before his mission. He was a return missionary at the time we were dating. He told me he'd had some trouble with it before his mission, that he'd resolved it with his Bishop, at that time.0:02:25 Anarie: And that since then, that it had been no issue at all, that he had no struggle with it during his mission. And but since meeting me, felt extra strong and resisting but he wanted me to know that that had been a part of his past. So I took his word for it, that it was in the past and that it was several years since he'd had a struggle with it. At that time, we didn't really talk about it very much other than I basically said, "Hey I don't expect you to be perfect, I'm proud of you for resolving it." And it sort of went to rest at that time.0:03:11 Anarie: Then about nine months after we were married, is when I found out that he was still actively using pornography and masturbating without my knowledge. And I found that out, there were some things off in our marriage, in our sexual relationship right from the beginning. And sort of when I was pressing into some of that, that he admitted that he had viewed some. At that time he told me it was just recent and that he'd never do it again. He felt it wasn't something that he needed to talk to the Bishop about, and I was okay with that. I do feel like I had a trauma response, and I was very anxious to believe that it really was just once or twice and kinda put it away at that time.0:04:11 Daniel: What happened before? So you were at about two months into the relationship, you guys became serious. And from what I'm hearing, it's impressive. Some individuals don't even, if they feel like their porn use or whatever sin it may be, is in the past, sometimes they don't even mention it. But he was mentioning it to you at about two months in. To, I don't know, clear the air, or just keep you informed. Which seemed like a good thing. What was your experience at the time?0:04:45 Daniel: I really value what you said, you said, "You know it's in the past." But emotionally, what were you experiencing? Were you thinking, "Oh boy, this is gonna be a potential issue in the future."? Or did you feel like, "Oh, it's taken care of, this shouldn't be a problem, going forward."? What were you experiencing?0:05:03 Anarie: That's a great question. I was nervous about it. It was a little bit of a concern. And actually, about a month before we got married, my older sister said to me, "Make sure you've talked to him about pornography. Make sure you've asked him about pornography use." And I said. "Oh... "0:05:22 Daniel: She did that just randomly, or did she already know?0:05:25 Anarie: Yes.0:05:25 Daniel: Okay.0:05:26 Anarie: No, she didn't know. And I didn't tell her. I told her, "Yes, we've had the conversation." And she seemed to imply that if there was pornography use that I shouldn't be marrying him. I very much wanted to marry him, so I chose not to tell her that that was something that had been a problem in the past. So I was a little bit nervous about it.0:05:49 Daniel: Did that scare you?0:05:50 Anarie: I knew it could potentially be a problem in the future. Yeah.0:05:53 Daniel: When she said, "If there's any pornography, don't pursue the marriage." I think it sounds pretty clear why you didn't share more, is because he had issues...0:06:05 Anarie: And I think rather than not pursuing the marriage, he was encouraging to take it seriously.0:06:10 Daniel: Oh absolutely, right.0:06:12 Anarie: And to not just dismiss it. Which I probably dismissed it more than I should have.0:06:21 Daniel: You said, before we went back to the dating phase, you were starting to talk about how you're seeing some signs after he'd mentioned he had ongoing issues. Did I hear you correctly?0:06:33 Anarie: Yes, yeah.0:06:34 Daniel: What were those indicators, those red flags, so to speak?0:06:38 Anarie: We did not have a good sexual relationship right from the beginning of our marriage. We didn't have sex very often. There were just a lot of things that were really weird, that seemed like they weren't typical at all for what I'd heard initial marriage was supposed to be like. And...0:07:04 Daniel: For the sake of the listeners and their, for a variety of experiences, are you comfortable with maybe giving some of those specifics? What did you see as...0:07:14 Anarie: Oh, what I was expecting?0:07:15 Daniel: Yeah. What you were expecting, or what seemed off?0:07:18 Anarie: I think I was expecting honeymoon phase, where we have sex multiple times a week, multiple times a day. I felt, before we were married, there was lots of sexual tension and lots of sexual interest, and so in my mind, I thought that once we got married, we were gonna have sex a whole bunch, and it was gonna be really fantastic, and we were gonna want each other whole bunch. And that's not what happened, when we got married there actually was a significant decrease in any sort of sexual tension or sexual interest.0:07:56 Daniel: Even though it sounds like you were wanting more frequent sex at that time, and were you communicating that, or did it just dry up real quick?0:08:08 Anarie: Yes, I was communicating it. Through our whole marriage, we had what would be termed as a sexless marriage, sex fewer than 12 times a year. And I was the one who consistently was saying, "Hey, I want more. This isn't right. What's wrong?" Reading lots of books. I took on a lot of the blame for that, and I think because by taking on the blame myself, it was something that I could fix.0:08:42 Anarie: So I read lots of things about Good Girl Syndrome, about maybe why... 'Cause he would sort of say that I wasn't responding the way that I should, and so he didn't want to, or usually when I tried to talk to him about it, it just sort of... It was almost like we couldn't talk about it, it never went much of anywhere. I expressed a lot of like my things, but then there was never much response from him.0:09:11 Daniel: Traditionally, we think of the husband as the higher sex desire partner. Was that confusing to you to see he had a lower desire than you, and that the sex was infrequent? Was that part of the reason why you're taking on the blame?0:09:27 Anarie: It was very confusing to me, especially because prior to our marriage, I was the boundary keeper, he was always pushing the boundaries sexually, and I was the boundary keeper. So then it was really confusing when we got married, and suddenly it was different. I wasn't feeling that desire from him any more.0:09:51 Daniel: And what was he saying, what was the feedback? And I wanna respect the fact that he's not here, and the listeners are taking this at the value... From your perspective. With that being said, what information was he giving to you? Was he saying that he wasn't attracted to you, or what was the reasoning he was giving?0:10:15 Anarie: Not really any reason at all. After a while, as I read more books and stuff, we did have the high desire-low desire. And so he would say, "I guess I'm just a lower-desire person," or... But no, there was never much explanation. I would say things like, I did believe that he wanted me before marriage and after marriage, he didn't, so that must mean that I was a disappointment, so I was the problem, I think that was part of it too. And so a lot of that, I was the one saying, and he didn't really counter it. I mean, he would say, "No, that's not the case," but then he'd never tell me why or do anything to make me believe anything different, in terms of attractiveness and interest, if that makes sense?0:11:11 Daniel: So the absence of information left you with very little to go off of, and it was like you didn't feel that attraction towards you, and he wasn't refuting it, so what else were you left to believe? Interesting.0:11:24 Anarie: Yeah. And so I filled a lot of that void with my own ideas and my own beliefs, and read books to try to figure it out.0:11:34 Daniel: So from there, that was about, you said, nine months into the marriage. Then when did... You're doing all this research, when did it finally become clear that this was actually being as a result of his porn use or masturbation? How far into that discovery was it?0:11:54 Anarie: Okay, so I'm actually kind of embarrassed that it was so long, but it was years before I really got clear that it was pornography, that it was still an active issue. We went to a couple of therapists, we went to one at LDS Family Services, and this was probably four years into our marriage. And so that was fairly traumatic for me, 'cause it ended up feeling very much like... The therapist that we went to... We only went to one session, so... And it was my first therapy experience, but I felt very much like the male therapist and my male husband were looking at me, confirming that I was the problem and waiting for me to get on board or figure something out. I don't remember any discussion of pornography in that session.0:12:57 Daniel: What were they then saying, or what... How do I ask this? You felt it like you were the problem. What were they identifying as the problem, specifically?0:13:11 Anarie: My lack of trust in him. So that actually... And that's something that my husband would say to me a lot. I would ask him about porn, so during this time, I would ask him about it, and he would tell me, "No, I'm not using it. I haven't for years." And he would say, "You need to trust me." So even though he knew that he was not trustworthy, but that was what he was using. It's something that needed to be resolved, is I needed to forgive and I needed to move on and I needed to trust.0:13:47 Daniel: It was manipulative. He knew he wasn't being trustworthy, yet asking for your trust.0:13:53 Anarie: Right. Yeah, yeah. And I was overriding a lot of my gut instinct. I can see now, looking back, that I didn't feel safe with him, and I didn't trust him, and I wasn't able to connect with him because he wasn't being truthful and he wasn't being safe. But I was so unwilling at that time to look at that reality, to believe that he could be lying to my face, that I was taking it all on myself and trying to fix it that way.0:14:23 Daniel: Unfortunately. An unfortunate event, not only the betrayal from your husband, but coming across the therapist who, is what we call triangulating, siding essentially with one person in the experience. But it sound like you got rid of that person pretty quickly, you only had one session.0:14:44 Anarie: Part of it was because he was male and I specifically wanted a female therapist. I felt like it would, I would feel safer. So the second therapist we went to was female, and we went to her for several months. And that was interesting. The only conversation about pornography that we had there was, I remember she asked him directly once if he had current use of pornography. He said, "No."0:15:10 Anarie: So then, all of the conversations about how I couldn't get over his past pornography use and how that was interfering and during that time, we were assigned to have sex a certain number of times a week or a month and report back. And when it was an assignment, it happened, so he was willing to engage with me when it was an assignment, when we were reporting back to the therapist. And I think I felt hopeful, so maybe we just needed to get jump started. So that when we were no longer going to that therapist, it again, that essentially disappeared.0:15:48 Daniel: Again, I wanna respect the fact that he's not here, but that sounds a little... For the sake of the listener, he wasn't, am I following you right, he wasn't willing to have more sex with you when you were asking for it but when it was an assignment from the therapist, he would meet that assignment? Is that what you're saying?0:16:07 Anarie: Yes, yes, yeah.0:16:08 Daniel: What do you think was the difference? Do you think he was wanting to meet a commitment with the therapist, or impress the therapist, or why the difference there? Why was he willing to comply as an assignment?0:16:22 Anarie: I think it may have been partly that; I also think there's a rejection factor, that because it was assigned by the therapist, it was clearly mutually greed, that he was on board and I was on board, so there was no risk of him initiating something sexually and having me feel unsafe or not want it, or be hesitant. Does that makes sense?0:16:44 Daniel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it seems to make sense, especially in the context of what we're talking about here. And what about your hurt; what about your trauma in this experience? Was the therapist mindful of your experiences?0:17:00 Anarie: No, I don't think she had much knowledge of betrayal trauma at all and I didn't have much vocabulary for that either. I don't know that I even knew what betrayal trauma was as a category or how it might be impacting me. Once I learned about betrayal trauma, then my response to everything made so much sense, my response over the years.0:17:24 Daniel: And you said how long were you seeing this particular therapist?0:17:29 Anarie: I think it was about four months. And it was right after the birth of... I think it was when my oldest was about a year old, so four years after our marriage, and we had a one-year-old baby at home.0:17:42 Daniel: And this, I think you're saying seemed to provide some sort of hope, because you're having more frequent sex, things seemed to be improving, but emotionally they weren't.0:17:54 Anarie: Yes. And I would often say to my husband; I felt like I was begging, "Please give me another chance. Can we try again? Can we do this more often?" And he would say, "Yes."0:18:07 Daniel: Wait, wait, begging for what? Sex, or just stay married?0:18:10 Anarie: For us to have sex, for us to have sex more often.0:18:13 Daniel: Oh, okay.0:18:15 Anarie: I talked to... One other thing that was going on here is I did talk to my OB-GYN about vaginismus, and got some information about a program for that.0:18:27 Daniel: So you were, you're experiencing painful sex also?0:18:29 Anarie: Yes. And I think largely due to no foreplay and no arousal. So I don't know that... The vaginismus program wasn't super helpful for me, because I think...0:18:47 Daniel: The foreplay was absent.0:18:49 Anarie: Yeah, there was no arousal happening at all, so of course it was painful and not awesome for me.0:18:57 Daniel: But even with the painful sex, you were still craving... Maybe craving isn't the right word, desiring more frequent sex from him.0:19:06 Anarie: Yes. I think a lot because I had been taught to believe that it was my responsibility as a wife to meet my husband's sexual needs and to fulfill my husband sexually. And I had been, I'd heard from parents and from church leaders that men who are happy with their wives don't look at porn. Which is a incredibly harmful message, that I had internalized and was accepting as part of truth. So I think part of it too was I knew that pornography had been an issue for him, and so one of my ways of helping him with that was gonna be to have sex with him, and then it wasn't working.0:19:49 Daniel: That's powerful.0:19:50 Anarie: I don't know if that makes sense, but that's...0:19:52 Daniel: It actually... You read... Yeah, well, I was about to ask that question, about how much of this was a preventative measure? You felt it was your responsibility as the wife in this eternal marriage to protect and provide a source for his outlet, to prevent him from pornography?0:20:12 Anarie: Yes.0:20:13 Daniel: You're desiring more sex, but there was also a strong element there of, "Okay, if I'm desirable enough to him he won't venture into this icky place," right?0:20:24 Anarie: Yeah, I felt like it was part of my responsibility as a good wife to have a good sexual relationship. I also think, my parents had also told me that sex is a beautiful thing. And once you're married, it's a beautiful part of life. So I do feel like I had a lot of positive affirmation for sex as well.0:20:42 Daniel: But you're like, "Where's the beauty?" [chuckle]0:20:45 Anarie: Yes, yeah. But I felt like I wanted that. And I wanted to make it happen, and I wasn't just gonna settle for like, "Oh, I guess sex is stupid and painful, and so good riddance." I wasn't content to just write it off as, "Okay, well, I guess we won't do this."0:21:03 Daniel: There are quite a few spouses out there that are in similar positions as you and, I don't have any statistics at all, but at least with my anecdotal experience and things that I've read, it seems like a lot of wives will go to a place of... They will actually stop having sex. But you were trying to make this beautiful. You were trying to achieve this thing that your parents were saying is good.0:21:34 Anarie: Yes.0:21:34 Daniel: And so that was amazing. That's, you weren't giving up on this hope that it could be something wonderful. So when did things, so to speak, hit the fan? When did you... Did he finally come out and say, "You know what, it's not you, it's been the pornography." What happened there, how did that occur?0:21:55 Anarie: Okay, so it was when my... Let's see, my five-year-old was a year old. Yeah, so our second child was a year old, and by that point, I felt like I had read all the books and talked to my doctor. Essentially, I felt like I had done everything to fix myself and to educate myself. I kinda felt like I'd hit a limit on what I could do on my end. And so I...0:22:32 Daniel: This was what, about five, six years in your marriage?0:22:35 Anarie: So this was about four years ago. So yeah, so it's seven years...0:22:40 Daniel: Seven years into the marriage.0:22:41 Anarie: Seven years into our marriage.0:22:42 Daniel: Wow, so this is...0:22:42 Anarie: So, yeah...0:22:43 Daniel: Wow, okay, good.0:22:46 Anarie: So I got to the point where I basically told him, "I am done with our marriage. I'm not willing to live in a marriage like this. It's not okay with me." By then, also, I had seen a lot more, I'd gotten a lot smarter about pornography usage. So I think a lot of my denial, believing that he was not actually engaging, had been broken down, because I actually started believing a lot of the studies, a lot of the information that was saying that pornography is an ongoing problem, that you don't just turn it off, like he was claiming he'd done. So basically I said, "I've done everything I can. Either you start talking and you start doing something, or I'm out of this marriage. I'm done."0:23:42 Anarie: And I really was to the point where I was willing to get divorced over this. That I didn't want to live in a emotionally disconnected sexless marriage. We were great. We've always been great business partners, good at coordinating logistical things. So the other aspects of what I believe should be part of marriage were completely non-existent. So I believe it was at that point when he realized that I was dead serious that... So by continuing to lie and hide his addiction, he was going to lose the marriage that he decided to start disclosing.0:24:18 Daniel: And can I ask you a personal question here? Is...0:24:22 Anarie: Yeah.0:24:23 Daniel: Were you at any time in that seven years trying to find clues, or go through his internet history or browser, and see if... Were you checking it?0:24:37 Anarie: No.0:24:37 Daniel: Wow, I'm impressed.0:24:39 Anarie: No, I didn't, I didn't play detective like that.0:24:42 Daniel: No, and forgive me, I'm not suggesting you should have, or anybody else should have. I'm just curious to what extent you were... You had a gut feeling, things weren't adding up, and you wanted to believe him, but there was something just off and...0:24:58 Anarie: Well, I am sort of amazed that I... Looking back, there was evidence. I did actually see some things that I should have realized were linked to current pornography usage. But I didn't. One other thing here that I wanna mention is that, about when we were going to that female therapist, you know, a few years into our marriage.0:25:21 Daniel: Right.0:25:23 Anarie: One of the things that came up was that he had never gone and talked to the Bishop after that initial disclosure nine months into our marriage. So I expressed that maybe if he went and talked to the Bishop to resolve that old issue with pornography nine months into our marriage, then I would be able to relax about it and trust him. So he went to our Bishop. And, I was not there so I don't know exactly what was said, but basically he disclosed that he'd viewed pornography within the first year of our marriage, and that it had been really devastating to me. So he told the Bishop some story, and about three weeks later, he was called as elders quorum president in our ward. Which I took to be a sign from God that he was clear.0:26:15 Daniel: Oh.0:26:16 Anarie: That the pornography issue was resolved. So I think that that was also part of why I refused to acknowledge that it was still actively happening all the time.0:26:28 Daniel: So you gave him this... Gosh, it almost sounds like an ultimatum. You were saying, "I'm done here. You gotta bring it forward," seven years into the marriage, what was his response?0:26:42 Anarie: He started disclosing some things. It was a staggering disclosure. He started admitting that he had... At first he just said that he had masturbated. So he'd been actively masturbating. And, which was upsetting to me but also relieving, "Oh, so that's where your sexual... You are a sexual person. That's where your sexual energy is going." And he said it at first that it was like old... He was using old mental images from his prior pornography use and stuff. So over the course of two or three weeks, he started disclosing more that, "Okay, there had been pornography use, but not in the last year."0:27:29 Anarie: Now that I know more about addiction or sexual addiction and how these disclosures generally happen, it really did fit the framework a lot, that he would disclose a little bit and see how I reacted, and then disclose a little bit more, or based on how I responded or what his shame was. And it was about three weeks after he initially started disclosing that he went to our current bishop. It was his initiation. He went to our current bishop and talked to his parents. And then, I talked to my parents and got in touch with a Lifestar therapist. And we were able to pretty quickly get into a sexual addiction recovery program.0:28:13 Daniel: So, now that you hear what's going on, you're able to get the right resources in there, at least different resources. So what was your experience? Was that... I asked these questions... I know you mentioned at the beginning you're divorced now, what was that experience like for you? Was it helpful?0:28:30 Anarie: It was very helpful, yes. I think we both felt a lot of relief that we had a problem that was identified, and that we could seek treatment for. So, there was a clear path for us to get on now. Whereas before it was like, "Something's wrong in our marriage, what's wrong? What's wrong? How do we fix this?" At least what was going on on my end. And with the pornography sexual addiction model, that gave, "Oh, there's a clear problem, there's a name for it, there's a name for what I'm experiencing, there's a treatment plan, there are other people that are experiencing this." So I feel like it immediately brought a sense of release and hope and safety that we would be able to figure this out.0:29:23 Daniel: For those who aren't familiar with Lifestar out in Utah, I think they're actually in a couple of different other states now but, for those who aren't familiar with addiction treatment, behavior treatment, what was that like? So you're saying now they're actually focusing on the pornography, and they're providing a treatment plan. Help the audience understand what does that mean? What does that look like?0:29:49 Anarie: Okay. So, the first part of Lifestar is called, Phase One, and it's a six-week education phase that couples attend together. If they want to. Sometimes individuals come 'cause their spouse won't come. But generally it's attended by couples, it's six weeks and basically it's kind of... I said educational 'cause the therapist presents information, and we had workbooks to do learning about addiction, learning about shame, some basic family of origin things. A little bit about drama triangle, attachment principles, and, during those we would sometimes break into smaller groups and share some answers from our workbooks. But for the most part, it was not a group therapy kind of experience.0:30:41 Anarie: Then after that six week, Phase One, then Phase Two starts, and that's when each person goes to their group therapy. So it's divided based on gender. So I had my group, and he had his group, and that was a group therapy, a weekly group therapy session. And we had additional workbooks and assignments that we would each work through in our individual groups; and their groups were led by a therapist. The Lifestar program is administered by different therapists, so it's like a franchise type of thing. And, the program that we did it in, the therapist really believes in not setting strict time parameters.0:31:29 Anarie: So, we were actually... Compared to some others where it's like phase two is six months and then you moved to the next phase. It was much more based on readiness and reaching a certain emotional place. So, compared to some other Lifestar group, I was in Lifestar for a total of three years before I completed it.0:31:50 Daniel: Is that...0:31:51 Anarie: And a lot of people do the Lifestar program in 18 months.0:31:54 Daniel: Yeah, you answered my question.0:31:54 Anarie: So I just wanna throw that out there, that's my experience, it's a little different from other Lifestar experiences. After about a year of... Or maybe 10 months of Phase Two, I graduated to Phase Three. And the reason for the different phases is just because it keeps people in the group that are in a similar stage of recovery, 'cause early recovery and fresh raw trauma looks and feels and sounds different than a little further down the recovery road. So, moving from Phase Two to Phase Three, it was more about...0:32:34 Anarie: There was a little change in focus, much less like raw trauma. And so, that's why there it was divided by phase. And in Phase Three, there were different assignments. One significant thing that's done... And they've changed it a little bit now, but there's a formal disclosure that happens during Phase Two, if both parties are willing, and it's a therapeutic disclosure. So the couple meet with the therapist, and it's a organized disclosure where the addict discloses to their spouse all of their behavior, behaviors in the addiction, and the spouse prepares questions in advance to ask.0:33:20 Anarie: So it's a chance to clear the air, start fresh, to ask questions in a safe environment, with a therapist you can hopefully watch for signs of lying or... And for me it was kind of healing because there had been a lot of unhealthy disclosure, it was helpful to have that formal disclosure where I had support, I knew it was coming, I had a therapist, I had friends. So in a way, that was able to heal some of the more traumatic earlier disclosures. So anyway, that was also...[overlapping conversation]0:33:52 Daniel: What a wonderful resource. So during that three years, you're taking it your own pace, working through your own trauma. So this is wonderful, you finally it sounds like now that you have your own cohort, so to speak, or a group of people that you can trust. You're able to now work through your trauma, your hurt, while he's dealing with his struggles. Did you see during that three-year period the relationship improve, or what was the result of attending these different phases?0:34:29 Anarie: Okay, so I do wanna throw in real quick that we also did individual therapy, we each had individual therapy sessions in the same group.0:34:35 Daniel: There at Lifestar, or somewhere separate?0:34:38 Anarie: We did it with the same therapist. So the therapist that led our lifestyle group was also the therapist we went to for our individual sessions, through most of it.0:34:49 Daniel: Excellent. So they understood what you were doing. And that's great. The reason why I point that out is, I think that's actually wonderful. In fact, studies show that if you only do group treatment, you don't have as high success rate. If you combine individual and group treatment, the success rate goes up. And the fact that your therapist was familiar with the program allowed that, I guess synergy, or you don't have to re-explain everything why you're doing what you're doing, or anything like that.0:35:22 Anarie: It integrated really well in taking place.0:35:24 Daniel: Exactly.0:35:25 Anarie: It was really helpful. We did have some couple sessions often on during that time mostly after disclosure and we did the couple sessions as well with the same therapist. When I was in phase three so in the third year of recovery I did go to an outside therapist for a period of time and that was really, really helpful for me. And looking back, I would say that I wish that we would have done some couples therapy with another therapist as well. I think because all of our treatment was coming from the same therapist there was some more... There were just some issues that came up with that but I think there might have been more safety if we had had some other therapist as well.0:36:08 Daniel: Would you point that out if you feel comfortable in doing that. I think that's actually a really important fact that people don't realize. There's a couple of elements here, and I'll share with you my thoughts, and then tell me what it was for you. I personally I'm very comfortable in doing individual and couples with the same people, there are limitations and there are exceptions there and that's usually discovered in the intake processes, is what we call it, and if I feel like it will be a benefit to both the individual and as a couple.0:36:43 Daniel: But there are cases where it's even if I'm comfortable with it, it's not a wise move or it's not a good way to support the couple because of the dynamics or whatever it is there and so a lot of clients will sometimes seek that from a therapist and there comes the other issues if a therapist is confident to navigate and to be able to separate the individual versus the couple experience there and sometimes bringing them together and so the individual seeking that kind of treatment both the individual and couples therapy, need to be aware of that in the risks and the benefits from that. What was your personal experience with that?0:37:27 Anarie: So, I feel that there were some very real benefit, because that therapist was aware, very aware of where each of us was individually. I think that that aided him in a lot of our sessions to... I don't know, I think he was aware of things that we didn't have to talk about 'cause he already knew but I think the biggest reason that I would say I wish we would have gone to someone else with kind of a safety thing.0:38:00 Anarie: So there were times that I felt like our therapist was on my husband's side, and there were times when my husband felt like the therapist was on my side. Whether or not that was accurate, I do think that... And maybe that would have happened with any therapist, but that came up. My perspective from me right now, and my therapist has acknowledged this, is that there was some manipulation, my husband manipulated the therapist. And that was part of why, when I went to an outside therapist, that was really helpful and empowering for me, because that other therapist had not been manipulated by my husband. So, I don't know.0:38:51 Daniel: That's... Yeah.0:38:54 Anarie: Because the therapists that we shared was so in it for multiple years and so he started giving blind spots and there are some things that he didn't see at the time that happens with any therapist.0:39:09 Daniel: Yeah, I think this is a very valid point, one that's kinda hard to communicate in a brief interview like this. And there's a lot of caveats here, I understand very well what you're talking about. I've even had to be very careful with working with couples that I'd known for a long time, or have been... Or I'm following up with, and knowing when and how to ask the right questions. It's very difficult when you have built that relationship, and you're not necessarily looking for all the signs of manipulation. And I'm gonna be cautious here. I'm tempted to say a good therapist can see those signs, but that means we would have to be perfect too.0:39:51 Anarie: Right. Yeah.0:39:52 Daniel: It's a very difficult experience.0:39:54 Anarie: Yeah. Well, and I think my main message to any of the listeners would be, I know it's really scary to get in with an initial therapist. At least it was for me. For me it was really scary to get into therapy, to build a relationship with a therapist, to be vulnerable about these things. So it was really scary to go find another therapist, another person, especially because I'd had some bad experiences...0:40:18 Daniel: Exactly.0:40:18 Anarie: With therapists before. I had some therapist trauma. But if you're feeling like you want another therapist, you want another perspective, a good therapist is not gonna be threatened by you wanting to go talk to somebody else for a period of time.0:40:31 Daniel: Thank you for saying that. Absolutely.0:40:34 Anarie: And you can get the support that you need to go talk to another therapist, or to go as a couple and try talking to another therapist.0:40:43 Daniel: I think you've brought up...0:40:44 Anarie: That you don't have to be still fiercely loyal to one therapist.0:40:50 Daniel: Absolutely, and I think that's a good way to approach it. First of all, trust your gut. You've had, whether there was actual manipulation going on or not, whether the therapist was siding with you or not, your experience is real and valid in that moment. There's a lot going on there's trauma, there's hurt, there's confusion. Trust your gut. First of all, trust your gut. And it is scary trying to get, especially if you've had bad experiences like you did with therapists, pose that question, "Do you mind if I look for another therapist for this?"0:41:25 Daniel: And their response I think will be a great indicator of maybe their motivation, or whether or not you should go get another therapist. If they get kind of awkward or embarrassed, or question, "Why would you do that?" Or if they even kind of stonewall in a way, "Well, we have all this history. How are you gonna communicate that history, and how will they follow our treatment plan?" That's a good indicator that you probably should go look a good therapist, like you said, will be totally supportive. Absolutely, go for it. This is your experience, do what you feel is important.0:42:07 Anarie: And I think sometimes, going to another therapist, I know this is sort of a tangent, but it could be motivated by wanting to run away from your current therapist. Maybe they're wanting you to look at some things you don't want to. So that could also be a factor but.0:42:22 Daniel: That is true. That's why it's hard. I think it's important to, kind of a tangent, but kind of not. This is all part of that experience in realizing what's happening here, especially when you have a partner who's manipulating you. Especially if there's been manipulation in the relationship, that therapist should be joining with you and building that trust, right?0:42:43 Anarie: Yeah. Yeah.0:42:46 Daniel: Yes there is a potential that you're running away, but you know what, you get to. You're having this experience and you need to have somebody who can trust you in this experience. And I've had people come back and say, "You know what? I was running away, and I realized that." And I'm putting it into my own words, but eventually he came out and says, "Thank you for letting me do that. I wouldn't have learned this if you prevented me or discouraged me from doing that."0:43:19 Anarie: Yeah.0:43:19 Daniel: And so, you're absolutely right. People are gonna run away when they don't like hearing what they're hearing but part of the experience is supporting that person in that experience, 'cause that's really what you're asking your husband to do, is, "This is scary. You should have been upfront with me from the beginning, regardless of my response. It's scary, I get it, this is scary for me, too. I need you to be open with me just like I should be open with you." And so, great, great. I think that was an important tangent. If we wanna call it a tangent. So...0:43:51 Anarie: One other thing I wanna...0:43:52 Daniel: Go for it.0:43:52 Anarie: Real quick, another part of my recovery over the last four years has been a 12 step program. The one that I have found most supportive was at a Lifeline group. So I did go to some of the LDS church's ARP program, and did not find them to be as supportive as I did the 12 step groups that are done through S.A Lifeline. [0:44:23] ____.0:44:24 Daniel: Oh, no, I think that's important. And if you could boil it down to one or two things. Why was it not as supportive...0:44:32 Anarie: Okay, so I wanna say at first ARP was wonderful, right at first, I'm super grateful that there was a place to go immediately, and that there was a place within a gospel context and within a gospel framework. So I did attend ARP continuously for about six months, and I was grateful for it. It met a need at the time. The biggest thing that I felt was not supportive about ARP, was actually the way that it was structured, that it was, it is missionaries that lead the ARP group, and a lot of them are not sufficiently educated on the topic on what they're dealing with.0:45:10 Daniel: Yeah.0:45:10 Anarie: And a lot of them spent a lot of time sharing. The missionaries would spend time sharing and teaching and lecturing things that were not actually helpful, were inadvertently shaming, and created a lack of safety. Another thing that I saw happen in the ARP group, in recovery there's a real need to give permission for emotion, and for letting your experience be what it is, and for having that experience be validated. And within the context of ARP, often it felt like there were certain emotions that were okay to have, and there certain emotions that were not okay.0:45:53 Anarie: Or that... And boundaries are important in any group, but I felt like there was not adequate space in ARP for anger. I felt like there was a real jump to forgiveness and share positive things and share faith things, faith-promoting things. And there's a place for that, but when you're down on the ground in, especially the immediate aftermath of trauma, there's so much anger and there's so much hurt. And there's, it rocks you spiritually.0:46:25 Anarie: I've gone through times where I don't even believe in God. I feel like, I know my betrayal that I experienced, it ran deep, a lot of it impacted my relationship with God. So there were times when I felt like I couldn't believe in God the way that that group was wanting me to believe in God. So for me it kind of increased the shame.0:46:47 Daniel: That is so...0:46:48 Anarie: Some of my shame experience there. Compared to the S.A Lifeline, where it's more general language, you talk about a higher power. And there I felt so much permission in that group to be wherever I was at, without feeling like I needed to show only the nicer part, or to be immediately jumping to the right way of saying things. If that makes sense?0:47:10 Daniel: I really appreciate you sharing that, about ARP. I think it's a great resource that is offered. I also agree that it's not for everyone, and I will say it's not for most people. I'm gonna say that very carefully for the very reason you've just mentioned. Untrained volunteers who are doing their best but not aware of how a lack of safety is created by reverting to forgiveness versus allowing that anger to be present and understanding how that can be healing in a group of people with a common experience.0:47:55 Anarie: Yeah.0:47:56 Daniel: Thank you so much. I don't wanna come across as criticizing ARP, I think it's a resource, but I think it's just that, a resource.0:48:06 Anarie: Yes, and I was incredibly grateful that it was there for me at the time, and by going there and talking to some of the people in the group, that's how I learned about some of these other resources as well. And I think that the experience in an ARP group it can be heavily dependent on who the missionaries are, and who else is there in the group.0:48:27 Daniel: Absolutely. So let's come... Thank you, I think that was very important. Let's come back around to... You have so much good information, I love it, I absolutely love it, but I'm trying to remember if we actually answered the question. In that three years of going to Lifestar, and these other various treatments, did we see progress in the relationship? What was a result of that?0:48:51 Anarie: Okay, so in terms of our relationship, we did not really, we were not very successful at connecting emotionally, through the three years. At different times we did. And I'm not entirely sure why. I felt like I made lots of individual progress, lots of individual healing and growth. And relationships with family, I saw relationships with my family members and with my friends, radically transforming and changing.0:49:38 Anarie: Within my marriage though, and my relationship with my husband, I was not seeing and experiencing much fundamental change. We were not connecting sexually, we were not connecting emotionally, really, through that process. We were supportive of each other in our individual journeys, but sort of in the same old like logistical business partner-y kind of way that it had been before.0:50:15 Daniel: So you don't want... You don't want a eternal business relationship, you want an eternal marriage.0:50:22 Anarie: Right.0:50:22 Daniel: So...0:50:23 Anarie: And I was... He might say The reason we didn't have a sexual relationship was because of my boundaries, and I would say, "Well my boundaries were where they were because there was still no emotional safety." I wasn't feeling... I didn't have trust restored, in like, I believe his disclosure was honest. I think I do.0:50:54 Daniel: You mean the disclosure in Phase One, or Phase Two?0:50:57 Anarie: The formal disclosure.0:51:00 Daniel: Okay.0:51:00 Anarie: Yeah, and I appreciated him sharing that. And immediately after there was some connection. He supposedly was able to achieve sobriety really early in the program. So a lot of times during the process of Lifestar, there's opportunity to work on conversation about experiences of pornography and slips, and disclosing that and working through that. And because he was so immediately sober, we didn't have much of that. So, I don't know.0:51:34 Daniel: So Tell me a little bit more about that. I think that's important for the audience to hear, now quite a few episodes are available with my podcast. What is sobriety when we talk about sobriety? And it may sound like a stupid question, and you may be familiar with the way I've tried to define it, and explain what is pornography. So how did they measure that for the sake of the listener Sometimes the definition around pornography could be anything that could potentially lead to something more severe, for example, maybe looking at in a lingerie or Instagram or something like that. So how was... Did Lifestar create some sort of definition, or was this an agreed-upon sobriety? How did that get decided and navigated?0:52:25 Anarie: So, for us in Lifestar there, I think there was a certain expectation in the group of what sobriety is, which is not actively seeking out pornographic images or sexual stimulation, things that with... Because with the addiction model the addicts are turning to that as a way to medicate their feelings, and so it was a... They weren't sober if they actively went after something that would give them their sexual hits. So if they were searching for pornographic images, or...0:53:07 Daniel: Of any kind?0:53:08 Anarie: Of any kind. Or... I believe a lot of people in my husband's group, and I think in 12 steps as well, sort of had a 10-second fantasy rule, that if they engaged in fantasy for more than 10 seconds then that was considered a slip.0:53:31 Daniel: Okay.0:53:33 Anarie: Or they needed to share that with their stuff.0:53:36 Daniel: That's a pretty short, short window in reality.0:53:40 Anarie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.0:53:40 Daniel: But I actually like that concept because it's actually encouraging self-awareness. You're not penalized or you're not viewed, whether by your group yourself or whomever, as back to zero again because, oh, my goodness, my mind went into an automatic thought process, and now I have to... It seems impossible, but that self-awareness or that time allows you to become more, "Oh, my goodness, that's what's happening. Okay, I still have time to recover." And not have to count that as, "Oh, excellent, great." So he was basing sobriety, supposedly off of that.0:54:22 Anarie: Masturbation as well. No masturbation, no self-stimulation.0:54:26 Daniel: Got it.0:54:28 Anarie: But really, so much of it was about the lying. So no... And with my experience with my friends on the betrayal side of it, so much of it was about the lying and the hiding. So yes, it would hurt if there was a slip, but it in a way, it was almost healing to have those slips shared, 'cause then we were being let into that world, and we were a part of it.0:54:58 Daniel: So this is what's... What's really interesting to me, and not a criticism, 'cause I... Well, at least I like to think I understand the human behavior side of it, but now you've gotten at least, you're past phase one, into phase two, the disclosure has been made, you've had a ton of psychoeducation about what these patterns are like, and now creating this environment of trust where he can disclose to you. And you're actually finding healing from it. It feels, "Oh my goodness. You're open with me." Why would he hold that back? If you've made this success... Again, I know I'm asking you to kinda interpret from his experience.0:55:39 Anarie: Yeah, I'm not sure.0:55:41 Daniel: Okay.0:55:41 Anarie: I have wondered if shame... Just using the sexual addiction model, as like these behaviors are bad, coming from that background of these are bad and shameful, by disclosing, it's, I'm showing you again that I'm shameful.0:56:03 Daniel: For those who keep hearing the phrase, "sex addiction model", just to provide a little bit more clarity here, there are different theoretical approaches to treating sexual behavior. And one of them is what is being referred to here as this sex addiction model, which is places like Lifestar and other organizations, believe in treating this behavior. And you're bringing up an interesting point here, is even though the sex addiction model was very enlightening to you, it helped you as an individual. You made a comment about how it might have been reinforcing the shame. Is that what I heard?0:56:44 Anarie: Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure if it was ideal scenario for him.0:56:51 Daniel: Can you say more about that?0:56:55 Anarie: Just because I feel like all through the recovery there was too much fear around it. Even if it was trying to be normalized, and other people struggle with this, I still feel like there was not an acknowledgement of how normal pornography use is. And I feel like there was still a lot of fear around it, and a lot of labeling of it as being bad and wrong, and...0:57:37 Daniel: So it...0:57:37 Anarie: It itself was still demonized a lot. Even if there was work done to navigate shame, like education about what role it's serving, and choosing more appropriate ways to meet some of those needs, it was still coming from this premise of, the pornography and the masturbation in and of itself is bad and wrong and... Yeah.0:58:11 Daniel: Yeah, well that makes sense. So, what I think I'm hearing here is, even though you've had this psycho-education, you're having this great support network, you're getting the resources you need for both of you and your relationship, there's a possibility that same treatment method was also reinforcing more fear. And so, even though he knew he could reveal to you, and that could be an opportunity for success and recovery, acknowledging that you slipped up again, you are now taking on all these...0:58:46 Anarie: Yeah, it still made him look like the bad guy.0:58:48 Daniel: Very much so. Again, not minimizing the seriousness of it, or giving him an excuse here, but the reality is, is when we demonize the use we then become and identify with that demon, so to speak. Right?0:59:05 Anarie: Yeah.0:59:05 Daniel: And so being able to acknowledge that even though you know you've done it, wow, that could really feed into, not only his fear, but your fear. What does it mean? You did this again. Who are you? Is that what I'm hearing?0:59:18 Anarie: Yeah, yeah. There in... I quite often heard it like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. There's the addict self and the true self. And I think there's some truth to that, and I also think it's problematic and was harmful, for both of us, to turn it into a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde type of scenario. Because I believe it's more integrated.0:59:45 Daniel: This is an experience that I hear so many have, where they finally get the... I thought it was beautiful the way you described it, is they provided resources and information that resonated with you perfectly, things made sense. And your personal journey, you felt like you were getting the right support, the right help, he was being held responsible in the right way to divulge his information and his struggles. While you have this great resource, you're also seeing how it was problematic. What is...1:00:22 Anarie: Yeah, look... Oh sorry, go ahead.1:00:24 Daniel: No, absolutely, go ahead.1:00:26 Anarie: I was just gonna say, looking back there, we're dealing with a sexual issue, pornography, his masturbation, sexual addiction, but there was not much information given in our program about healthy sexuality...1:00:42 Daniel: Bingo.1:00:42 Anarie: About normal sexual development. And I know normal's a relative term, but human sexual development, there was not much information about that. Even with disclosure, hearing about a lot of the forms of acting out that he used, I still, during my time in recovery, there was so much fear that there was never really any normalization of some of those kinds of behaviors. So I would hear that he'd done this type of pornography that, to me, was extra scary and extra bad. And there was never any space to put that in a less terrifying way.1:01:30 Daniel: I think that's huge, and I think that's a thing that's missed in all treatment. Well, not all treatment, but a majority of treatment. Even in those clinics that are, like Lifestar, who are phenomenal at what they do, we focus on what not to do, right? But we don't actually explore and understand from a expert point of view, of what healthy sexual behavior looks like. We have these assumptions, but those assumptions aren't necessarily true, or need further expanding on.1:02:06 Daniel: But I also, what you said there was, the type of pornography, and there's huge misunderstandings around this. Pop-psychology, a lot of the predominant resources out there teach this idea that it's escalative behavior, and that is... There's very, very little support for that, in that somebody who's looking up maybe bondage type of pornography, or something very serious, or is perceived as something more serious than another, then that creates this whole new treatment model or severity around the person. Or there's something more sickening about the person, which is, again, problematic and not supported in treatment or in science. But you started to notice that.1:02:54 Anarie: Yeah. I feel like I needed to have my experience validated, so I was coming at it from a place of a lot of fear.1:03:03 Daniel: Of course.1:03:03 Anarie: In fact, it was really scary for me to listen to his disclosure. I had never watched a rated R movie myself at that time, and so to learn about these sexual behaviors and these kinds of pornography, that was a really scary thing for me, to have to learn about those things. And it was helpful for me to have others validate how scary and how much fear there was in that. At the same time, I feel like there could have been... I could have been validated in my fearful approach to it, and a more balanced view could have also been presented a little bit sooner, so my narrative could have been validated and some reframes could have been offered more.1:03:51 Daniel: So what would you recommend to somebody who's in your position, situation rather, and they're struggling with a similar behavior, their spouse is hiding, and you're seeking treatment? How would you... I guess what I'm asking is, What would you do different?1:04:11 Anarie: Or what would I do the same? What would I...1:04:13 Daniel: Oh yeah, fair, fair.1:04:14 Anarie: Recommend for someone in that place?1:04:16 Daniel: Yes.1:04:17 Anarie: For me, getting support from others and moving out of isolation, is so so scary. So wherever you can start to get that support from. For me, looking back, I have felt some like, "Oh, maybe we should have gone to a different program. Maybe if we would have found a better therapist." Or, "I should have not gone to ARP first, I should have... " It's really easy to get into some of that. But any support, any... Reach out to the people around you, look for the best resources that applaud any steps out of isolation, any effort to express your experience and get support. And permission to experience what you're experiencing, to feel what you're feeling.1:05:09 Anarie: However you're coming at it from, whatever you feel about it, those things are valid, and there's a place for it, and you don't need to feel ashamed for the way that you're experiencing it. So you... I heard a lot of messages about how betrayed spouses need to respond right to disclosure. So, if you freak out, they're not gonna share with you in the future. But... And there's truth to that. At the same time, when you're in fresh trauma it makes sense that you freak out and that you can't hold space for yourself the way that you might be able to further down the road. So, I guess just permission to be where you're at when you're there.1:05:57 Daniel: I really appreciate that insight right there. I will often... If we discover that disclosure has to be made, I can't tell you how valuable it is to, depending on which partner it is, in this case let's say the husband, pulling them aside, meeting with them individually and coaching them through this. "Look, it's gonna be rough. You don't try to manage your wife's feelings and emotions at all. Let her experience it. This is about revealing, building trust, and she gets to have her emotions just like you do. In this experience, allow her to be. In fact, encourage it." But that's, I think... Oh, that's a big one. Thank you for bringing that up.1:06:47 Anarie: And that is something I felt Lifestar did a really good job, of giving space for the betrayed partner to have their experience, for their trauma to be validated. And to expect that the addicted spouse needed to find support elsewhere, and that the betrayed person can't... You want to come together as a couple to address the issue together, but for a time maybe you can't do that. You need outside support, outside people. So...1:07:23 Daniel: Absolutely, so you now are divorced. It's been how long since the separation?1:07:27 Anarie: Four months since it was finalized, a year since we separated.1:07:29 Daniel: Four months. Alright. And do you feel like you're in a better place now?1:07:34 Anarie: I do, yeah.1:07:37 Daniel: Well, Anarie...1:07:39 Anarie: And I'm hopeful that he is as well, and that he will be.1:07:46 Daniel: Well, it sounds like you're making some important decisions to move forward, and that healing is occurring. And I can't tell you how much I personally appreciate you coming on here and sharing your information with everyone else. I can't tell you...1:08:00 Anarie: Well, I hope that it can be helpful. There was so much... Shame thrives in believing that you're the only one. And for so long I believed that I was the only one, or one of only a few. And particularly the sexless nature of my marriage didn't match a lot of what I heard about other...1:08:21 Daniel: No.1:08:22 Anarie: Addicted people. And I think that was part of what was so distressing too, it seemed to not fit. And since recovery I've found, no there are others who are experiencing this dynamic of being married to someone who's acting out sexually while having a sexless marriage and sexless relationship. And so, for a long time I was even nervous to tell other people in my recovery circle about what kind of sexless marriage I'd had because often I was in a minority. So, for that reason I wanna share my story because I know now that I'm not the only person experiencing that kind of dynamic.1:09:03 Daniel: It's so much more common then people realize.1:09:04 Anarie: And when you... When you feel like it's just you, when you feel shame for your shameful experience, it's just so much more painful. So I know now that I'm not the only one experiencing that, so I wanna share that so that others can know as well, that this is part of the experience too.1:09:24 Daniel: I could assure you, the people listening right now are comforted by that comment. You did mention one other thing, before we go. I can't remember if we were personally talking about it offline or if it was at the beginning. You said one of the concerns, or... And maybe you have addressed it in a round about way. But one of the concerns you had about this treatment process, just the whole process I guess, was, yes, you got solutions, you got treatment plans for the porn and sexual behaviors, but some of the underlining issues weren't addressed.1:10:02 Anarie: Yes.1:10:02 Daniel: Do you mind talking about that for a second?1:10:04 Anarie: Yeah. So, in terms of our relationship and what was actually going on in our relationship, I feel like the pornography was a symptom of other things that were going on. So in spending a couple of years honing in specifically on pornography, and the pornography use, and regulating and learning about that, it took a couple of years before we started actually looking at more of our relationship dynamics, that were actually more of our problem. And it's linked, so it's not like... Okay.1:10:50 Anarie: But in a way I feel like the focus on the pornography use was able to feed... We almost... It started to become a part of some of our underlying issues. We almost used it in old unhealthy ways. So, in terms of what the underlying issue was, there was some control and power manipulation, lying, unhealthy shame management, enmeshment, differentiation issues, sexual shame, repressed sexuality. Some of those things... We spent so much time on the regulating sobriety and porn behaviors that by the time we started actually getting to the real meat of stuff, it took a couple of years.1:11:48 Daniel: Which is absolutely a case I see quite frequently here. We may resolve the pornography, the addictive behaviors, but when that's gone what happens is exactly what you described. You're going to this, you're healing, but where's the connection? The absence of porn and undesired sexual behaviors does not create connection.1:12:16 Anarie: Yes, yes, yes. [chuckle]1:12:18 Daniel: Right?1:12:19 Anarie: Yeah. Yep.1:12:19 Daniel: And so, this is an element that is always... Again, I'm using always. Not always the case. Is too often overlooked, because we do, we make the symptom, which is the pornography, the problem. And we think if we get rid of the problem, which is actually just the symptom... There's clearly something else going on here with the constant manipulation. And unfortunately, the way... The addiction model, or pop psychology, whatever we wanna refer to it or blame it on, tells us that manipulation is a result from the escalating behavior. Well, we're finding that it's actually an underlying issue that's unresolved and not treated. And then the pornography, in a sense, becomes yet another form of manipulation to cover that real problem. It's this benign tumor that just is hidden somewhere we can't find it. Right?1:13:17 Anarie: Yes. And pornography addiction recovery can, in a sense, end up being used as a tool of manipulation.1:13:25 Daniel: Yes.1:13:25 Anarie: And, there was something I was gonna say. I can't remember.1:13:33 Daniel: Now, if it comes back to you feel free to jump in.1:13:36 Anarie: Sorry. [chuckle]1:13:36 Daniel: But I think that you hit... I think one of the biggest takeaways from this is not to neglect the... We focus too often on getting rid of something. I phrase it... You went to treatment at the beginning, no one talked about pornography, and then you went to Lifestar where pornography was finally talked about, but yet connection wasn't addressed. If there was some way that we can address both the undesired behavior and the desired behavior... And in my practice, I always say, "Let's focus on the desired outcome. What is the desired outcome? Okay, you're using pornography right now, the desired outcome isn't just to stop that.1:14:20 Daniel: The desired outcome is, "I wanna feel closer to you, I wanna feel connection. Okay, even if you saw some pornography today, I still wanna come home and have a meaningful discussion with you, I wanna have meaningful sex, I wanna feel close to you. If that means getting rid of the pornography, great. If it means we need to understand how to communicate better, let's do that too." And it sounds like that was an element that was missed, at least in your experience.1:14:52 Anarie: Yeah, and it was talked about, and I... Connection, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. That's a phrase that I heard a lot in recovery. So there was a lot of talk about connection.1:15:06 Daniel: Yeah, but we're discovering, it sounds like you did too... And forgive me, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth at all. Is the absence of the addiction doesn't re-result in connection.1:15:18 Anarie: Yes, yeah, yeah.1:15:19 Daniel: So we talk about it a lot, but we don't actually, I think, create a treatment plan around that and try to improve it.1:15:27 Anarie: Yeah. And I do wanna say that I am grateful that pornography... Because pornography was labelled as an issue, as a problematic thing, it gave a doorway into some therapy and some information that was incredibly helpful. So I am grateful that there was this issue and there are these programs that help, that were able to catch me and help me get directed into some real therapeutic help.1:16:00 Daniel: Absolutely. Well, you've given us so, so much to think about here. And I know it may sound redundant, but I'm gonna ask again, any final thoughts or things you wanna leave us with?1:16:13 Anarie: I do wanna share just some of the things beyond betrayal trauma that I needed to learn, and that were an important part of my recovery, and my process of learning how to be a healthy individual in a healthier relationship. Because there were definitely

Daniel Zimmerman, an LA-based digital marketer, took a year sabbatical and went on a 50 state search for the perfect artisanal ice cream! In this quest, not only did he get to taste some spectacular ice cream, he also met some fantastic people along the way. Here he is today to talk about the lessons learned on this journey in pursuit of ice cream. Well, welcome, Daniel. So happy to have you here. Daniel: Thank you for having me on. Katty: So I know that you and my colleague Laura had spoken at length about your adventures recently, and I just found it fascinating and I wanted to continue our conversation. I think the audience will just find it really interesting to see the journey that you took, the decisions that you've made to take the sabbatical, and the lessons learned along the way. So I really appreciate you coming on and sharing that with us. Daniel: Absolutely. If there's anything that you know, I could share with others that would help them along their way in their own journey, I would be more than happy to do it. Katty: Fabulous. Well, to give some context to the audience, you took a year sabbatical, and you went on the pursuit of tasting ice cream in all 50 states? Daniel: That is correct, yes. Katty: So what inspired you? Daniel: I've always had a love for ice cream. But more specifically then that, it was more like the fear of potential regret. This is, you know, everyone talks about, oh, I want to travel in my 20s I want to explore the world, I want to do all these things. But really, the idea of just always being talk and not actually following through scared me more than not doing it. Which I'm not kind of a strange way to think of it. And really, it was just something that I thought I was at that point in my life where I had some money saved up, you know, I didn't have any real responsibilities in terms of a mortgage, no kids. I still have my metabolism, so I can just eat loads of ice cream. Katty: Lucky you! Daniel: Yeah, so I had to do that while I was on the tail end of getting as much out of that metabolism as possible. Really it was just the perfect storm. And I just saw this golden opportunity and I was like, “yeah, you know, what I'm gonna follow through on this, you know, not just talk about it, but actually do it”. So that was kind of the onset initial inspiration. Katty: How long have you had this idea that one day, I'm going to do this ice cream adventure? Daniel: So it's always one of those like vague ideas. I never really put like a true concrete plan of going a road trip to all 50 states. It was more along the lines of you know, I've always had a love of ice cream. You know, like I had been eating like every day since a child. July is National ice cream month. So starting college, I would do this thing where every single day during the month of July, I'd try to find a different flavor of ice cream. And then like to eat it and write you know, a tiny review on it. And then like, over the years, they just, the reviews got longer flavors got crazier. And like, eventually people like you know, like, here are some other crazy things that you should do. So they would start sending me links. Someone sent me an ice cream cleanse, which is like a juice cleanse things, but with ice cream. You just eat ice cream for three days straight, and it's like a special vegan ice cream, but you like cleanse your body of toxins, and then you lose weight. So I did it and I lost three pounds in three days, and it was this crazy thing. And then like it just kind of kept snowballing where people would send the other ice cream challenges around the country. And so I just had this ongoing list of like, cool places around the country that you know, like I got to visit. And then from there, it just kind of snowballed into like well, you know, I have like at least two dozen states I need to visit now. So like why don't I just knock out all 50 and I'm sure there's like I supposed best ice cream in every single state. And sure enough, there's all these different publications that have you know, from you know, Scoop Adventures to BuzzFeed, Thrillist to you know, I think PBS had one too, like the best ice cream every state. So I literally just compiled all those lists together and then giant excel sheet. And then that was kind of like my road map of all the places I need to hit up. Katty:  I love it. So you took your experience with data! Daniel: Definitely. I did some excel hotkeys there to compile lists. Katty: That is funny. Well, it's clearly very strategic in terms of how you attack this plan. Daniel: Thank you. Yeah, like I said, it was something that, you know, there was a kernel that someone else sent into me, and then that somehow, you know, blossomed into something else entirely. So it's not always, you know, to have the crystal clear vision is to be able to adapt along the way and let a small idea grow into something bigger. Katty: Nice. Love it. Love it. Of course, I'm sure everybody asks you all the time, what's your favorite flavor? What's your favorite place that you went to.   Daniel: Yes, yes. As far as favorite flavor goes, I get asked that a lot. And my answer is always the same where I say there's no such thing. There are a time and a place for every flavor. So that's like, my canned response. But you know, and everyone hates that answer because you know, you're supposed to have a favorite. But if I think about it more, you know, cognitively I think food tastes and in general, and this very much applies to ice cream, that it's not always just about objective criteria of you know, this is like the best amount of milk fat ratio, this is, you know, supposed to have so many parts per million of you know, like a Madagascar vanilla bean whatever. I think it's very much a social experience where you know, eating with a friend, you know, you eat it at a time, like on a hot summer day, you're eating it in all these other situations that can impact how you taste it. So, it is so subjective, I don't think there is an objective criterion of what can constitute as like a single greatest flavor. Which is something that I kind of knew beforehand, but at the same time, you know, I was like, maybe I can be proven wrong, like maybe there is truly something that's like, you know, transcendent will reach Nirvana or something. Maybe, but that wasn't the case. Katty: But it's also one of those foods that it triggers memories. You know, if you remember your childhood. Yeah, this is just comfort food, if you will. Daniel: Oh, 100 percent. You know what, I've been talking to other people about this, and I ask them about some of their most cherished times eat ice cream, they usually like recall, sometime when they eat with their grandparent, who's no longer here. You know, they went up to like a farm by their place in some rural area, and they say it was the best ice cream they ever had. And then, you know, I'm where I was like, I'm kind of wondering like, is it truly that great? Or is it the memory of, you know, spending with a loved one that is also what's impacting, you know, some of those rosy tinted memories they have. Katty: It'd be interesting to see, if you, I don't know, if you have plans of taking your ice cream adventure overseas, and have a  comparison, right? Daniel: Oh, absolutely. Like, so I had those ideas like the second I finished the 50th state, or even beforehand, really, but like, similar to what I said beforehand. But the original goal was just to hit all 50. And I don't know necessarily that I would do the same intense traveling at that kind of breakneck speed that I did beforehand. But, you know, I definitely have plans to try ice cream all over the world, because throughout this whole journey, like other people will reach out to me like, “hey, yeah, I stumbled across, you know, your social media or something like that from a picture of ice cream that you took. And I was like, we have good ice cream, or, you know, gelato or custard or whatever, in like all these other different countries.” So I have invitations from India, to Australia, to Japan to you know, England and beyond, to try all these different ice cream. So the list is always growing. Katty: Wow, fantastic. Yeah, I'm originally from Iran. And we have some really good Persian ice cream here in LA. I don't know if you've tried it or not. But I'll send you a couple links of some places to go. Daniel: Oh, my gosh, I mean, specifically, in Los Angeles, you know, Sapphire and Rose ice cream I love. Katty: Yes. that's the one. Daniel: Yes. You know, I used to live a couple of blocks from that ice cream shop. So I've been there a handful of times. Katty: Good, good, good. Good. Yeah. They make it certainly makes it very unique. For me, obviously, it reminds me of my childhood.   Daniel: Absolutely. And, you know, there's, I mean, I do like this the sharing of cultures too, you know, you can find it. It's not just in Los Angeles, where is the only place you can Persian ice cream, but, you know, just this idea of a different take on it. And that's something that I think should be celebrated also, as far as, like, pushing the boundaries and not just staying within the comfort zone of you know, your chocolate, vanilla strawberry. Katty: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And then again here, in LA, we have such a variety of Mexican ice creams, which are absolutely delicious. Daniel: Absolutely. I was just gonna say like, it's surprisingly, where you think, like, such a vibrant, you know, Latino population, Southern California. And then also, like, I'm thinking about, like, other Latino populations around the country, like Miami, Florida has, you know, a lot of good Cuban ice creams, and, you know, also like some inspiration from, like, Latin American like South America to like with some of their guava with this type of like, almost like a biscuit cookie. They're called Maria cookies, but it's kind of like a biscuit cookie. But it's huge in those areas. And when it was brought to Miami, like it became the number one seller of, at this one ice cream shop in Miami. So, it's crazy how that it's literally, you know, like, exporting flavors to other areas and kind of expand the horizon. And then they perform really well, which is always, like, exciting to see. Katty: Ice cream, is at the intersection of cultures and how it brings it all together. Daniel: Absolutely, that that is a great way to phrase it. Just because in my personal experience, I haven't met a single person who doesn't like ice cream. I mean, I think even people that are lactose intolerant, they like the idea of ice cream, and they're just maybe a little sad that it doesn't agree with them, in their digestive tract. Katty: Yeah. Or they have lactate pills to take so they can have ice cream. Daniel: Yeah, they will suffer through it. Katty: Yeah, there you go. So, I know that part of this journey that you've taken, because I know that you have an idea to write a book, it's really about the people and the cultures that you came into contact with. Can you talk a little bit about that? Daniel: Absolutely. So when I first started the journey, you know, I had a fixed budget set aside for all my room board, ice cream, travel expenses, what have you. And then while traveling, I found out about this platform called Couchsurfing, where literally, it's an online community, you know, there's an app for it, and then you can pretty much search within a city and see if someone might be willing to let you sleep on the couch for free. And it's, it's an amazing thing, and it's not just about you know, getting a free place to stay. It's you know, about pretty much exactly what we were talking about, as far as that exchange of cultures and ideas and, you know, stories and just sharing moments with other people. And it's something that I didn't think of at all at the onset. But similarly, you know, when you kind of keep an open mind, there was like a seed that was planted, and that bloomed into something incredible. And just the idea of when I started, you know, just Couchsurfing staying with all these people, I try to learn, you know, things from their perspective, and it was just to say, life change, it would be an understatement, you know? Oh, absolutely, you know, it as far as I think, one, you know, your empathy just goes through the roof, because you realize, you know, we're all people, we kind of going outside your bubble comfort zone, you can take on new perspectives, you can learn, you can grow. There are so many different things that, you know, so many different by-products that come up from these types of travel stories and experiences. And so much so that, you know, like, there were there were times when you know, I would I try to talk about, like all the things that I learned along the way, sometimes there are, you know, I think there might be some more overarching things in terms of like hope of humanity, or, you know, like some other really big lofty ideals. And then sometimes, it's just a really cool story of how he'd know like, someone that they-- So one guy, he literally, Forrest Gump'd it and ran from Los Angeles to Miami, in like, 100 days, like, so that's like, over a marathon a day, pretty much. And so he just has a really cool story. And, you know, so I stayed with him and, and I learned about all the crazy things he's doing. And he's just a really interesting character. So yeah. So that's kind of, I'd say, some of their stories, and maybe how sometimes how they've changed my perspective on things is kind of what the book is trying to be about. Katty: But how amazing, it's almost serendipity here where you're doing a 50 states pursuit, and then you meet someone who's doing their own 50 state pursuit of something different. There you have that common denominator. Daniel: Absolutely. It is interesting, too, when you just because I mean, within the 50 states, but just the city. So basically, when they're doing their own 50 standard ventures like for which are the cities that are overlapping? What are the ones that you know, may have a specialty in one area, but may not as much in another? So it's definitely interesting, and then we talked about, like, I don't know, sometimes in Couchsurfing at least, how, if there's a chance, “hey, we happened to have stayed and slept on the same couch pretty much, just by pure coincidence. And yeah. So, then there are those kinds of moments to that always just kind of fun or coincidences, I guess? Katty: Yeah. So I know that you are very strategic, and you know, in your professional life, an account manager, and you look at data and all of that. Did you? Did you take that approach into deciding which whose couch you were going to be staying at? Daniel: Yes, and less than yes. I mean, so I would say, it's not as much data more about just research in general. So basically, everyone on Couchsurfing, they fill out a profile, they talk about themselves, they have to, you know, in terms of -- you try to talk about some of your interests so that you might have like, common denominators things to talk about, what have you. So basically, I would say, I took some of the research approaches that I would do when I was an account manager with clients. And then, you know, tailor messages to like, outreach, like, “Hey, I noticed, you know, we both have the same favorite movie”, what have you. And then, you know, you kind of use that to bridge the gap when doing outreach. It is, in some ways, like sales a little bit. So you know, you can't just have, you know, it's not necessarily like an email blast, where you're getting it all out, I'd say it's closer to a one on one sales, where you really kind of want to tailor it to them to have the highest success rate. So there is some of that type of account management in as well. Katty: Very relationship driven. Daniel: Absolutely. And kind of through this, you know, as you get more experience you like you notice things that might be more effective and picking out as far as things that they've had interested in or places they've traveled to, or things that you can, like, how interesting that you get a higher response rate from then maybe someone might be slightly more generic. Katty: Got it. Love it. What has surprised you in this pursuit? Daniel: I mean, aside from the people, um, I mean, that's obviously a big one. I would say. I mean, I was surprised a lot. Just because, I mean, in terms of ice cream, like, I was definitely surprised at, like, some of the crazy flavors that people are coming up with around the country. You know, we talked a little bit about Saffire Rose Persian ice cream, you know, that's not that common. So, I mean, that is, is something certainly more unusual and out there. But also, there'll be other places like, you know, there's this place, forget the town, but they were right on the border between New Hampshire and Vermont, and they have like a peanut butter curry ice cream, which is really crazy to think about, but also like, surprisingly delicious, like, it has a nice nutty base, like a little curry kick at the end. So, I mean, or, you know, like, in Portland, Oregon. There was a paring blue cheese ice cream, which is like, really strange to think about, but it ends up tasting like, you know, a pear cheesecake of sorts. And he's like, “Oh, this is actually pretty good.” Katty: Right. We have it like on a salad. Right? Daniel: Right. Yeah, absolutely. I'll take myself a side of pear ice cream, please. So like, you know, I was surprised in those regards. And then, like I was talking about, like, all the people surprised me and how much I learned there. And, and then I also was surprised at like, how, in some ways, I was able to travel fairly inexpensively, but the other time, there were other things I thought would be inexpensive to travel but ended up costing surprisingly, more than I had anticipated. So, so things just like booking, you know, the romanticized idea of booking a train across the country or something like that. Like, those are like, surprisingly, more expensive than like, renting a car, sometimes like, really? A train ticket is, you know, sometimes, like equal parts as far as like a plane just based on like, the number of stops you do. Or, you know, buses are always the cheapest, but there's like all these other things to think about. Katty: Okay, so in my mind, I guess I assumed, incorrectly. I assumed this was a driving trip, but not necessarily. It was a plane, trains, and automobiles trip for you? Daniel: Absolutely. I mean, I think I took just about every form of transportation. I did take a ferry to an island. So that includes boats as well. Katty: I guess if you wanted to make it to Alaska, you would've needed to somehow. Daniel: That was a plane. So yeah, that one wasn't as connected. But there was an island, just off the coast of the states in Washington. So then we went there and had to take a ferry to get there. But the idea of-- I would often what I would do is, you know, I would go out on multiple legs, I would say, where I would do a loop of, you know, a handful of states and then maybe like, return to like Los Angeles for like, a week or two, just to like, kind of get my bearings a little bit. Gotta you know, train like that does drain you a little bit when you're just on the road. Yeah, months on end. So even though it was a full year of traveling there, it was broken up into, like, small sets. Katty: Yeah, living out of the suitcase, I would imagine after all those months. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, you could do that for a while. But there is something nice about you know, having a home base of sorts, you know, a nice bed to crash on. Katty: And did you continue on this adventure on your blog so that others can follow you? Daniel: Absolutely. Well, so the blog is specifically dedicated just to the ice cream for you. But you know, like I said, I'm really just trying to currently still reach out to like, some people, I stayed with trying to like, put, you know, a fine point on some of the things we talked about, and then hopefully get that into a book, it is definitely not an easy task. I don't know whether or not I overestimate or underestimate the difficulty of it. But it is, certainly I'm still trying to work through and you know, I do have the discipline and dedication to overcome it. I just don't know exactly how long it will be. Katty: Yeah. Got it. But in terms of how you document it along the way, were you just journaling every, every day? Daniel: Not every day. But you know, definitely when something noteworthy happened, I, you know, always had, whenever I got internet access, I had an ongoing, just online document that just literally has, you know, dozens of scores probably of single typed, single-spaced typed pages, where them notes from interesting things that happened or what have you. And then I have like, actual journals filled with like ice cream notes based on the flavor and like texture, composition, all that kind of stuff. Katty: And then you came back and started working with an ice cream shop, or was that concurrently?  Daniel: Yeah, so that was --so I took the year-long journey around all 50 states. And then towards the end of that someone kind of planned the idea, like another seed of an idea in terms of, should you open up your own ice cream shop now that you've had all these good things? And I thought that was an interesting idea. Like, maybe I should probably, maybe I'll do a little research into that. Be very thoughtful in terms of that approach. So really, what I want to do is like, learn, you know, how these the best places that I went to around the country, how do they do it? So I reached out to like, a handful or two of the best ice cream shops I visited, and asked if they would want to take on an apprentice. So there was an ice cream shop up in Maine. That was like, yeah, come on up to Maine like will make ice cream for a season. It'll be awesome, and I can teach you all about that. So that's what I did. Then after that, I road tripped back from Los Angeles to Maine to live there for like 6 to 8 months and then learned everything about ice cream making-- from running the business, all that good stuff. So, and at the same time, they were benefiting for me in terms of digital marketing and account management and some of those other skills that I had, you know, more previous corporate life. So we were both benefiting from this apprenticeship. Katty: And then are you thinking of foraying into entrepreneurship with your own ice cream business? Daniel: That's a great question, and the answer is no. I am so glad I did this, you know, like data mining apprenticeship to learn about it. And then realize that I don't necessarily want to open up my own shop. I'm glad I did that, as opposed to having, you know, opening up my own shop and doing the very costly mistake or learning that the hard way. I still love ice cream, I can make some pretty good ice cream now. I have the skills to do it. But as far as you know, open up my own business. There's like a handful reasons why I came to that conclusion, but I decided against opening up my own. Katty: Well, you'll get to do it for the love and the passion of it. Daniel: Absolutely. Katty: Good. Good. One final question. I want to kind of bring it back to where you are now in your career and really talk about the concept of discipline. I know, it's something that you had mentioned earlier when we were talking about innovation and creativity, and you brought it back to how discipline is really where you have focused and that's really the differentiator for you. Daniel: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, discipline is so important in that, I mean, there are so many different aspects where the discipline comes involved. One in terms of, even when I was on my journey, like I as much as is a fantastic idea to talk about, you know, all the amazing experiences that I had traveling and eating ice cream, and, you know, doing whatever. I would be lying if I said there weren't, you know, some tough times. There weren't some times when I had doubts. But the same time, you know, I, when you kind of trust in the process a little bit. You know, even if you're having a less than a great day, what have you to continue pushing forward and, you know, having that discipline resolved to kind of go through with what you set out to do. You know, just the idea of just traveling alone for, you know, extended periods of time. Like when I first started out, I didn't, I mean, I wasn't a great traveler, you know, I talked about traveling, I hadn't really done much alone. So then the idea of being alone in a foreign place before I found Couchsurfing, and I had no idea what I was doing. And you know, there are times when you get lonely like is this whole thing going to work out? But you know, persevering through that, like keeping the discipline, and then again, life-changing experience. And then discipline in terms of, you know, career-focused, like, definitely seeing something through to the end, I'd say that, you know, inspiration is well and good. It can provide, you know, momentary energy, but discipline is where you always kind of need to fall back on. And just kind of knowing, forcing yourself even when, you know, it might be a little bit tough. Because then inspiration usually comes again after that, you know, it kind of ebbs and flows. It's not always just, you know, the creative drive juices pushing everything forward. There is something that should be said, of trusting in the process and pushing through some of the tougher times too. Katty: Yeah, absolutely. One of my favorite quotes, I actually have it up on my wall. It's a Stephen Covey, quote, just says “making and keep commitments to yourself”. It is so true. That's what the discipline comes into play is to not only make them because they sound great but actually keep them. Daniel: And I love the part where it says to yourself, because you know, sure we don't want to let others down, but you don't want to let yourself down too. Yeah, that's really I think, finding that internal motivation. Katty: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Daniel, I can't wait until you get an opportunity to sit down and write Cream of the Couch. I can't wait to read. It sounds like a fascinating, fascinating journey. And thank you for taking us along.   Katty: Thank you so much. That was Daniel Zimmerman sharing his story of the pursuit of the perfect ice cream. You can follow his blog, called TheKingofIceCream.com or follow him on Instagram with @_kingoficecream and learn more about this unforgettable journey that he was on and everything that he learned along the way. Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Artisan podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Artisan Creative, a staffing and recruitment firm specializing in creative marketing and digital talents. You can find us online at artisancreative.com or via social channels @artistancreative We look forward to connecting.

Alice Cooper was raised in the Bickertonite Church, and his grandfather was the president!  Alice Cooper's song, "No More Mr. Nice Guy might have a reference to his Bickertonite upbringing!  What else can Daniel tell us about Alice Cooper?  Did Mr. Smithie really punch him in the nose? https://youtu.be/fClNRep22iU Daniel:  We go to a friend, a family friend, between the both of us and we have dinner together and we're talking and my wife just out of the blue says, "Okay, let me ask you this, are you that Mr. Smithy in the Alice Cooper song that punches him in the nose?" And then Ike Smith's wife just burst out laughing and says either her or Bonnie, she says "That's where it comes from!" See, they didn't, as far as we know, they didn't know. Apparently people had been telling them that reference and they didn't really fully realize where it was coming from. So my wife is, I guess maybe it was the first bold one to flat out say, Hey, are you the guy that punched him in the nose? So go Laura! That was awesome of her. And he said, he goes, "Oh." He goes, "Oh my goodness. Oh Vinny." And he basically, or something like that, just very friendly and laughing. And he says, "Just for the record, I did not punch Vinny in the nose." So yeah. And I guess we have a friend that's a part of the Latter-day Saint movement. I had met him one time at a John Whitmer Historical conference. I forget his name. Really Nice Guy. Anyways, he knows Ike Smith as well. And his wife Bonnie. Anyways, he went to an Alice Cooper--I don't know if it was a meet and greet or a concert or something like that and they took a picture with Alice Cooper and he told him saying, "Hey, I know Ike Smith." And Alice said to him, "Tell Ike, Vinny said hi." So, there's a history between them and it's very possible. It's very possible that sarcastically, you'd have to ask Vincent Furnier himself. Here's the video of the song if you're interested! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN6ngThqMEs We'll also talk about Bickertonite leadership.  Did they follow Brigham Young's pattern where the senior apostle becomes leader?  Is an apostle greater than a prophet? Daniel:  Bickerton is a prophet who are ordains apostles. So it shows, at least through history, and if you would to tie that in scripturally, Bickerton kind of acts in a way. I don't want to say he was Jesus, but he started a movement and restored the movement. Obviously if you're a Bickertonite, you have to believe that he had the power to do that and to ordain apostles. So, it's little interesting mental gymnastics that we play. GT: I just wonder if that's because the Cadman narrative is what won out, right? Daniel: Yeah, exactly. GT: So he would probably try to push prophets below apostles because he was an apostle and he wanted to be at the top of the church. Daniel: Oh for sure. GT: And so it sounded like... Daniel: And he could even been considered a prophet necessarily, but he still was an apostle and the president first. Yeah. GT: So, the president of the quorum of the Twelve--so you guys will follow the Brigham Young Movement in that the president of the Quorum of Twelve becomes the president of the church. Daniel: Exactly, Yep. Check out our conversation!  Here are our other conversations with Daniel!   Alice Cooper's grandfather was President of the Bickertonite Church! 204: Writing History Without Getting in Trouble (Stone) 203: Reuniting the Bickerton Break (Stone) 202: Ousting a Prophet (Stone) 201: False Prophecies Are Possible! (Stone) 200: Civil War Prophecy Leads to Black Ordination (Stone) 199: Biblical Support to Ordain Women (Stone) 198: Bickerton Becomes Prophet (Stone) 197: Sidney's Church Falls Apart (Stone) 196: Rigdon/Spalding Manuscript Theory (Stone)

Daniel and Andrew talk about different ways of relating to the ancestors. Especially getting into how to help the ancestors evolve and make our lives better in the process. They also get into their relatinoships to the orisha and ways of thinking about practicing a tradition that you were not born into.  Daniel can be found through his site here. His events are there too.  Daniel's talk on practicing other peopels traditions is here.  Andrew's upcoming Ancestral Magick Course can be found here.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcription ANDREW: Welcome to the Hermit's Lamp podcast. I'm hanging out today with Daniel Foor, and Daniel is a Ifá priest and has done all sorts of wonderful work along the lines of ancestral healing. And Ancestral Medicine is the name of the book that he has out. And he and I have a lot of similarities in practices and the kinds of things we're interested in, so, you know, lots of people have been suggesting I have him on for a while, and, and well, today's the day! So, welcome, Daniel! Thanks for being here!  DANIEL: Thanks so much. It's good to be here.  ANDREW: There are people who might not know who you are. Who are you? What are you about?  DANIEL: Yeah, well, I ... to locate myself a bit, I'm a 40-year-old, white, cis-gendered American living in western North Carolina. From Ohio, originally, but traveled a good amount, but live in the States, and have a PhD in psychology. I'm a licensed therapist, so I have a background in mental health.  But mostly I'm a ritualist, and I've been training with different kinds of teachers and traditions for over 20 years now, and started out with more shamanic pagan background with magical things, and migrated into involvement with Islam, and Sufism, Buddhist practice, and then circled back to involvement with indigenous systems and earth-honoring traditions. And in the last decade have been immersed in west African Ifá practice, lineages in the Americas and also in west Africa, and so I'm an initiate of Ifa, Obatala, and Oshun, and Egungun priesthood, [inaudible], and in the lineage of Oluwo Falolu Adesanya Awoyade, Ode Remo, in Ogun State. So I've been four times to Nigeria, and that's one influence on my practice.  But mostly I teach and guide non-dogmatic, inclusive, animist ancestor-focused ritual practice. The last two years or so I have shifted to training others, which has been really satisfying after years of doing more public-facing ritual, I'm now ... I do some of that but mostly I'm training other people in how to guide the work. And I have developed a specialization in repair work with blood lineage ancestors. But I also operate from a broader animist or earth-honoring framework that isn't limited to just that. So. And I'm a dad, I'm a, you know, married, and love the earth here, and live in the American South, which is kind of strange, but also okay. Yeah.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. That's awesome.  DANIEL: Yeah. ANDREW: So, I mean, I guess, my first question for you is, when did you start feeling the ancestral stuff calling you?  DANIEL: Well, my own lineages are German, English, Irish, early settler colonialist to North America, and so I didn't inherit any religious or spiritual framework or culture that was of value to me in any conscious way as a young person. And so, my first teachers in shamanic practice, Bekki and Crow with the Church of Earth Healing, in the late 90s, nudged me to get to know my ancestors ritually. And it was really impactful, actually. I was surprised by it. I'd never thought about them really before that. And I ended up assisting with an older ancestral guide or teacher, my father's father who had taken his own life, and just showing up for that work, which was powerful.  And it was a catalyst for me to research, do a lot of depth genealogy research about my own family history, and that dovetailed in with my training as a therapist, so I was in a period of connecting a lot of dots and valuing my own heritage, and, in a grounding way ... Not in like some awkward, go white people way, but in a way that helped me to reclaim what is beautiful about European, you know, northern western European cultures, and ... including earlier pre-Roman, pre-Christian magics and lineages. And so, I ran with that ritually. And have guided 120 maybe, multi-day, ancestor healing intensives since 2005 in that work, so I spent about six or seven years getting grounded with all of it myself. Then started to help other people with it. And it just organically developed as a specialization. And I tend to be a little obsessive about a thing, when I'm into it. I'll do that like crazy, until it's ... yeah.  ANDREW: Yeah, I think ... I mean, I think it's interesting how ... Cause I do a lot of ancestral work as well, you know ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I do ancestral divination work and, you know, ancestral sort of healing and lineage healing and so on.  DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, I've been teaching it with my friend Carrie, we have this, we developed this system of people working with charm casting as a tool ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: To get into that work. And, you know, we've been traveling around and teaching it everywhere. We were in China last year teaching it, and stuff like that, with people ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: You know, I think that the thing that sort of stands out in your story, that I think stands out everywhere, is so often, like the last little bit, you know, the last few generations, it's kind of wonky, or like there's not a lot, there's not a lot of connection or living connection. Even, you know, it wasn't until last year that I found out that my grandmother read tea leaves when she was alive ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And she's been gone for like 12 years, and it just never came up before. She never talked about it, and my mom just never brought it up. Not for any particular reason but it just, it just was never a thing. Even though that's the same grandmother who bought me a tarot deck when I was like 13, long ago.  DANIEL: Right. Of course she did.  ANDREW: But I would have talked about it, right? But how ... Often when you kind of go back, you know, a few generations or somewhere a bit deeper, you know, there are these sort of more ... evolved isn't the word that I super like, but you know, like, more grounded, more helpful, you know, ancestors with a, with a sort of more capacity to be really guides and assist you in this process, right?  DANIEL: Yeah, often. It ... Where those cut-offs happen varies so widely from one demographic or even one individual to another, and I know in a lot of my own lineages, it's been over 1,000 years since anyone during life had a culturally reinforced and supported framework for honoring the ancestors. And so the older ones, the ones even before that, are quite available. So it's not ... I mean I could ... reinforce some kind of orphan victim culturally-damaged white person narrative, but it's not that sexy or useful, and so at a certain point, you're just like, well, you pick up the pieces where they're at, and get the fire going again.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And the older ancestors are happy to do that. And so even if someone comes from a really recently and before that culturally fragmented set of lineages, the ancestors are still available, the older ones, and the main repair orientation or practice that I encourage people to try on at first is to partner with those older ancestors and with them, assist any of the dead who are not yet well, any of the ones between those older ones and the present, who are not yet really well-seated, really vibrant. Help them to become well-seated ancestors. So the dead change. It's very important for us living folks to not fix them in some static condition.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: Just cause people were a pain in the ass or really, you know, culturally in the weeds during life doesn't mean they're doomed to that condition forever. They can really change and become, not only, like, not ghosty, but they can become dynamic, engaged, useful allies for cultural healing work in the present.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: So. ANDREW: Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's a misconception that a lot of people have that they automatically change on crossing over. DANIEL: Oh, sure, yeah, that's different. (laughing) ANDREW: And then the other side of that is, you know, they can change, but it might take a bunch of work, even if they did change, right?  DANIEL: Yeah, totally. Yeah, both, both are true. Yeah. The idea that just dying makes you wise and loving and kind is really hazardous actually, as a world view. So. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: Cause it'll lead to a view of ... I've seen it at times in pagan circles as well, where it's “Oh, the ancestors, ancestors are good, let's invoke them all. Okay, here are all the names of my ancestors, and the pictures, and let me light a candle and strongly invoke all of them.” ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Well, I hope your invocation doesn't work. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Because if it does, you're going to get a mixed bag! Cause your people are, you know, if they're well, awesome, but if they're not yet well, and your invocation works, then what you have is some not yet well ghosty energy in your space.  ANDREW: For sure, right? And some of those spirits can be pretty tumultuous, you know, if they're ... DANIEL: Oh, no doubt. Yeah. ANDREW: [crosstalking 09:53] here. I have one grandfather that I continue to work with who, sort of, work on, let's put it [laughing].  DANIEL: Right.  ANDREW: It's been a long time and they're still not ready to be, you know, front and center in anything, cause they just, so caught up in so much deep, deep trauma in their own life and in their generations before them, and, you know. DANIEL: One of, one of the things that I don't, I won't say it's unique to how I approach it, but it's emphasized in how I approach ancestor work, which isn't across the board, is I take a very lineage-based approach. Like I don't even really encourage, necessarily, relating with individual ancestors that much. ANDREW: Hmm. DANIEL: So in the case of someone, not to speak to your specific case necessarily, but let's say someone's grandmother is really quite entrenched in the unwell ghosty range of wellness. My strategy is to make sure that her mother and her mother and her mother and her mother and the lineage of women before them on back through time to the ancient weird witchy deity-like grandmothers, that that whole lineage is deeply well, and the repair happens from the older ones toward the present. And so, once you have the parent of the one who is quite troubled in a deeply well condition, and the whole lineage before them deeply well, as a group energy, asking them to intervene to address the rowdy ghosty grandparent tends to be ... It can ... Well, it can be more effective, simply because there's a re-anchoring of the rogue individuality in a bigger system, in a collective energy.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And there's a respect for seniority or hierarchy, by having that person's elders be the ones to round them up. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: So, so that's. I shared that because in the West, generally, I find that people tend to conceive of ancestor reverence primarily as a relating of one individual to another individual, and, and some of the lineage or group level aspects of it can get lost, or they're not as emphasized. And so I find that's an important nuance to include, and then another is, and we've spoken to it, is just the way in which one's ancestors are not at all just the remembered dead, the ones, the recent ones, but they include ... The vast majority of them are living before remembered names. And that's helpful for people who are like, my family are abusive trolls. I'm like, okay, I believe you, but I think what you mean to say is all the generations you know about, which is probably not more than two or three. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: And so, it's like, you're at the ocean, at a windy, cloudy day, and you're saying, “Oh, the ocean is tumultuous,” well, I believe it is, right there at the beach. But the ocean's a big place, yeah. So expanding our frame for who we mean when we say ancestor is gonna be helpful too. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure. Yeah, and there's lots of times when, you know, we'll make offerings or do work with all of those ancestors, right? With the Egun, right, with everybody? Right? DANIEL: Yeah.  ANDREW: You know? And in those ways and so on, right? Yeah, yeah, I mean it's interesting how ... It'd really be interesting to make sure that you're looking at those things. And some of my, some of my best ancestral allies have been gone, you know, three, four hundred years, right?  DANIEL: For sure. ANDREW: Or longer.  DANIEL: Yeah, totally, yeah. ANDREW: They arrive, and they're just like, “Yes! You're the beacon of light amongst all of these things, and let's radiate that out to everybody afterwards and anchor further and deeper,” right?  DANIEL: Yeah. For sure. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So, when you're doing work with people, are you mostly focused on ... you know, because a lot of people come to ancestor work because they want to get messages and receive stuff and do ... DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: ...[inaudible at 13:59] kind of stuff, right? I mean, I think that that can be fruitful, too, I enjoy that kind of work as well, but that's not really what we're talking about here either, right? I mean not explicitly, right?  DANIEL: Yeah. If we say like, what's the point? It can ... There are a lot of different motivations that can drive someone to want to engage their ancestors. The most common one is, “I'm suffering, will this help?”  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: That's legit. Sometimes it will help indirectly. Sometimes it will help directly because the source of the suffering is unmetabolized intergenerational trouble that's directly connected to ancestral interference, and so sometimes it, you know, it can help in different ways.  Another motivator for the work is seeking life guidance, cause the ancestors have insight into our unique destiny, and can help us to move into closer alignment with that, you know, our unique instructions or soul level work in the world.  As you know, in Yoruba culture, we sometimes talk about the world as the marketplace and Orun or the spirit world as home, and, and so if you forget your shopping list, working with the ancestors can be like, “Let us show you, you said this, this, this, and this,” and be like, “Oh, yeah, okay, thanks,” and so that's helpful to not waste our lives.  And ancestors can be great for being a resource to parents or supporters in family, like they're especially good with all the family sphere, the domestic sphere, like being a responsible family human. And they're also good allies for cultural healing. A lot of the racism and colonialism and sexism and other kinds of cultural toxicity and garbage and bad capitalism that we're stewed in and trying to get out from underneath and help transform ... Those are ancestor, those are troubles created by the ancestors. Like, they're implicated in the trouble. And so they have, appropriately, a hand in resolving the trouble as well.  And so they're great allies, by whatever form, activism, cultural change, all that. And so I really think that working closely with one's ancestors helps cultural change-makers to up their game, so to speak. So that's another motivation.  And this is, I guess it's related to the one about destiny, but, inspired a bit from the Yoruba frameworks. The collective energy or wisdom of the ancestors is associated strongly with the Earth. Like the onile, the earth is like the calabash that holds the souls of the dead. And because the Earth is associated with accountability and, you know, moral authority, and is the witness through of all interactions, in that way also the ancestors carry that same quality of accountability. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And I think whether or not people can consciously own it, some part of us craves accountability. Like we want to be seen and checked when needed. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: There's something really like ... our daughter almost made it to the top of the steps. Like, the door was open the other day. She's nine months old. But we caught her. It was good. It was way better than had we not held her in that moment.  ANDREW: Right. DANIEL: And there's a way in which that kind of love and connectivity is like, “Oh, I'm not alone in the universe.”  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: If I crawl to the top of the steps, someone will pick me up. So we want that, and the ancestors bring that, as well, when we live with them.  ANDREW: I think it's a, I think it's a thing that, especially, you know, in my experience, people, in Western culture, struggle with too, right? This sort of willingness to acknowledge an authority or an awareness or a position that's sort of above them in a way that they can allow in to say, “You know what, actually, we do know what's better for you in this moment.”  DANIEL: [laughing] Oh, yeah, it's- ANDREW: You what, my friends, you know, going down that road has nothing to do with your destiny, or what have you, right?  DANIEL: Oh, yeah! [laughing] ANDREW: Here's your fault in this mess that you're trying to put on this other person, right?  DANIEL: Oh, yeah, no, people, look, I'm a teacher, also, and so often it's great and fine, and sometimes people are idealizing in awkward ways, and like, oh, don't do that, don't do that. But, but just whatever, fine, it's fine, it tends to burn out and even out. And also sometimes people are really just not okay with anything resembling a power differential or a student teacher relationship.  ANDREW: Right. DANIEL: And it's ... It's tiring a little, as a teacher. Because there is a difference between telling someone just what to do in an authoritative way, and also saying, like, “Well, do you want to learn a thing? Because I know this skill. Like, what do you ... do you want to tell me how it goes, cause ... ?” So, so yeah, it is ... I think it's a function of power so often being abused, that people understandably have mistrust.  ANDREW: Yup!  DANIEL: Yeah. So I have compassion for it, and also the piece around hierarchy and authority is really, is challenging. In the coming months, some dear friends are going to Nigeria to do initiations and I was talking to them last night, and I was like, in the nicest possible way, “Really, your main job as the initiate is to obey.” ANDREW: Yes. DANIEL: Just to, like, the ritual is done to you, nobody really cares what you think about it. And it's totally fine.  ANDREW: Stand here, stand there, [crosstalking 19:59]. DANIEL: Right! Yeah, totally, sit down, drink it, sit, eat it, say thank you. Like ... ANDREW: Yeah.  DANIEL: Yeah. Like you're the thing being consecrated. Your input is not needed.  ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Nothing personal. Next time you go back, then you can have an opinion.  ANDREW: Yeah. And even then-- DANIEL: And even then, so you get one small vote. [laughing] Yeah.  ANDREW: No, for sure. Yeah, let's see what people who ... I mean come for readings of all kinds, but you know, people who approach, you know, getting dillogun readings and stuff like that, and you know, the Orishas come through, and they're like, “Oh, you know what? Don't drink this year, don't, you know, whatever. Don't get tattooed. Don't, you know, no, no red beans for you.” They're like, “Well, what do you mean? I don't understand.” It's like, “Well...” [crosstalking 20:52] DANIEL: Obey! [laughing] ANDREW: What is the understanding? I mean, in a lot of that situation ... in some of those situations, the understanding is more obvious, right?  DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: I had a conversation with a person who'd say, “Well, it seems like you kind of have this kind of challenge, and this is kind of the thing that might counter that,” and they're like, “Okay, yeah, maybe.” But other times it's just energetic or on other levels that it's just like, you know, it's kind of the ... It's an equivalent of saying “Hey, carry this citrine with you for the next year, it's going to help your energy,” but it's in a different structure that people don't relate to in the same way, right?  DANIEL: For sure, yeah.  ANDREW: And then they're like, “But, but, I don't want to be told what to do!” I'm like, “What else are you gonna do?” DANIEL: You just paid me to do that.  ANDREW: Yeah, you asked, right?  DANIEL: [laughing] ANDREW: You didn't have to, I wouldn't worry about it ... DANIEL: But some part of us does, some part of us really, I think wants to be told what to do. And that could go awry, and I'm not saying it's an entirely healthy impulse, but there's something about accountability and structure and community and limits, that's actually really intimate. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: And if you can't hear and accept “no,” your “yes” is meaningless.  ANDREW: Mm. DANIEL: And so there's something that's precious and sweet about protocol and tradition and about structure.  ANDREW: I also think that a lot of people don't really ... Faith is a really complicated and difficult thing for a lot of people too, you know?  DANIEL: Mm.  ANDREW: And especially when entering a new tradition, you know? And, and I think that part of what we're talking about here is also a matter of faith, right? What is your faith in the ancestors or the Orisha or whatever, and how, how do you sustain that faith through being deeply challenged by all that stuff?  DANIEL: Yeah, and for me, look, I was involved with different Orisha teachers in the States, American, for the most part, and ... it didn't work out that well, for the most part. I mean, complicated. But I ... I felt like there was a lot of restrictive and unhealthy and kind of confused energy around it. And I had an opportunity to go to Nigeria to reset some of the initiation-like things that had happened here, so I took a risk on it, and I'm like, “Well, this is either gonna be like the final straw, or some breakthrough,” like, “let's pray for the latter.” And I saw kind of a non-dogmatic group community like, in my Ifá initiation, there were men aged like 80 to five, holding space. Like, and 20, 30 people there. And people were teasing each other, playing, and having a good time. Like the people were well human beings, they seemed happy. And so that relaxed, teasing heart aware energy. I'm like, “Oh, good, this is what I was looking for.” And it helped ... For me, it helped me to trust, and just not fight the system. I'm like, “Just tell me what to do.” Just okay, “eat the pig dung,” okay, “Leave me a bite,” or whatever. Whatever it is. Just tell me what to do. So.  ANDREW: Yeah.  DANIEL: Yeah, it's great.  ANDREW: I used to, you know, get some people who would bring their, you know, like, elderly, Cuban elders to the store. You know? And pick up stuff. DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, they're here in Toronto to do a thing, and they'd bring this person to the store, right? And you know my Spanish is not great [laughing] and their English was not great, and we'd like, know some like, Yoruban words in common or whatever. And you would see how sweet and genuine and nice they were. And then they'd notice that like, you know, I've got plants growing at the front of the store for working with religion, and they'd be like, “oh, alamo,” I'd be like, “yeah, yeah,” and we'd have this like sort of pidgin conversation and a bunch of other things, and mostly what it would be is our hearts being opened, all this sharing of our love of this religion and these spirits ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And the continuity of that. And it was such a beautiful and uplifting experience, even though there wasn't a lot of words that were associated with it. There was just so much communication happening at other levels, and you could, you know, I could feel my Shango just being happy about it, you know, be like whoever there, too, just being happy about it, and so on. You know? It's so uplifting in that way, right? But ... DANIEL: That's good. It's one of the things in, you know, we had mentioned in our previous chat about my talk on practicing the traditions of other people's ancestors. And-- ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: I respect it a lot about the necessary and important dialogues around cultural appropriation, and especially, not only, but especially around respecting different Native North American or First Nations, as you say, traditions, and being mindful of what the conditions of involvement, if that's open, to non-Native people are, etc., and what's important to understand is those same parameters are not universal, and how cultures are shared and understood from one part of the world to another really vary.  And Yoruba culture, for example, is generally an open system. Yoruba people in my experience, in Yorubaland, have never had anyone feel off about me being there and training in Orisha, except for the Christians, who were like, “Why don't you want Jesu?” I'm like, “We have Jesu where I'm at,” it's like, “It's fine, like, go Jesu!” but it's not why I'm here. And one of the things that is important though, is, it's family, like you're stepping into a family, a spiritual family. It's not like a “Hey bro, thanks for the culture, now I'm gonna go back and set up shop, I got what I need.” There's a ... And so when your teachers hit you up for money, it's family. That's what like, you can't be part of a family and have a bunch of stuff, and then other people don't have something, and you don't share it.  ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: And so it's ... It's not like you're getting exploited. I mean, that also happens. But just the ethic of sharing and supporting one another. If people don't want that, then they might not want to get involved. because most indigenous systems that I know of that are open to people not of that blood ancestry hold things in a family-oriented way. There's intimacy with that, but there's also connectivity, reciprocity, accountability. Yeah.  ANDREW: And, you know, so, you know, my immediate family where I was initiated lives in the Detroit area, and my, you know, my elders are in Miami, you know, and like, but like, especially when the Detroit folks are doing work, you know, especially bigger things like making priests, you know, I always show up, like, you know, it's like you, when they're doing the work, and you're like, “Oh, it's so inconvenient for me to take four or five days off and go down there and help out, right?” And it's like, yeah, it's inconvenient, and you know, it's time off work, and it's whatever, but it's what those people did for me, right? And it's what allows all of that to continue, and it's a chance to, you know, to also sustain those connections, and you know, sing together, and sit and joke together, and, you know, complain about handling the ... cleaning up after the animals together, and whatever, it's just part of it, right? Like ... DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: And in the absence of being willing to engage that community element of it, right? It's pretty ... If you don't have the community element in one way or another, especially in the Orisha tradition, you don't really have much of anything, you know?  DANIEL: It's true, with the tradition, it in my experience is very communal, and there are a lot of ritual domains of activity you just can't pull off solo.  ANDREW: Yeah.  DANIEL: And it's just that, you know, it's a lot of hard work, it's heavy lifting. And for people who have worked with psychoactives, there's a certain kind of feeling among the group after a long, successful, like all night acid trip, when the sun's coming up, you're sort of like, “Oh, we've just gone through something together.”  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And, and, minus the LSD, there can be a sense after a multi-day ritual of a strong sense of magic and beauty and intimacy that's shared through all the effort and all the devotion ...  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: That it takes to keep old lineages of practice alive.  ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Yeah.  ANDREW: For sure. And I think it's, I mean, one of the other points that I think was super important ... It's been a while since I listened to that talk and we'll link to it in the show notes, cause it was a good talk. Folks should go back and listen to it. You know, is also the fact that these are living traditions, right? They have continuity. DANIEL: Yeah. ANDREW: And, you know, but there's a big difference between, hey, we're gonna call up some Greek deities and see what happens, you know, and, like, or you know, see what happens sounds dismissive, I don't mean it in that way. And you know, there's nobody, there's no continuity to ancient Greece, in that particular way, versus there are people who've been practicing these traditions from person to person to person, all the way through until now, and you can actually go and ask those people and they can answer you as to what's done and how it's done and why it's done. DANIEL: Yeah. No, it's true. People don't ... If they don't know something, would be in the habit of divining on it, but I wouldn't want someone to, like, not go to flight school and then divine on how to fly the plane. [crosstalking] Yeah.  ANDREW: Yeah. There's that great proverb, which I'm sure you know, which is “Don't ask what you already know,” right?  DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: And I think that there's a sort of choleric glory to that which is, you know, there are things you just shouldn't ask, cause you should already know them, right?  DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: You don't need to ask if we do this thing because we know we don't. You know? DANIEL: Yeah.  ANDREW: We know that Oshun won't take this as an offering. We know that we don't do this kind of thing. We know that, like, you know, you don't ask if you could rob a bank cause the answer's already no. You know? DANIEL: Right. And there's a beautiful essay [inaudible 31:07] by Ologo Magiev [31:09], a child being asked to divine, and their parents died young and so they didn't get the information. And so they invoke their ancestors, and bring a lot of humility, and wing it, and it turns out fine. And, and I think there's also this kind of an implicit message, “And don't do that again. Don't pull that card too many times.”  ANDREW: Right?  DANIEL: [laughing] Then go train! ANDREW: For sure, right?  DANIEL: So, it's both. The deities have kindness, and benevolence, and also, careful! ANDREW: Yeah. And, you know, I was traveling, and I got a call that a friend of mine was like at death's door in the hospital, basically, right? And, you know, and I was just literally at a rest stop getting, gassing up the car when I checked my phone in the middle of New York State, right?  DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And I was just like, all right. And so I went and, you know, kind of looked around for some stuff, and it's like, there's nothing, like I can't, there's nothing I could really sort of put together here, so I just collected a bunch of white flowers and, you know, it's really hilly, right, so I just took them to a spot that I thought was appropriate for Obatala ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: And I was like, Obatala, this is all I have today. I'm here, it's this situation, and I need you to accept these and intercede in the situation. And you can get away with that. But that's not practicing the tradition. And that's not gonna, as you say, it's not gonna fly all the time, right?  DANIEL: Yeah. ANDREW: When you're at home, you can do all sorts of other things, you have your shrines or your ancestors or wherever you're working with, right? They will accept these things, cause they do understand circumstance and they're not tyrannical about it, right? They just say, you don't want that to be your way of practicing forever.  DANIEL: I spent years like, I don't know, not quite 20 years, not involved in a really dedicated way in one set tradition. I was training with different traditions for a period of time, and would definitely learn stuff, and would develop my own ashe [33:20] or whatever, but I wasn't like embracing one fully, as an operating system. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: But I learned that it's possible to do it that way. That was actually really helpful to me. That it's possible to go deep with one's own ancestors, to go deep with the spirits of the land, where you're at. ANDREW: Sure. DANIEL: And to get to know them, and to get clarity about your own destiny and to just constellate in the different powers and forces and spirits that are gonna help you to do that. And I also ... that there's loneliness in going it solo, as well. There's like a freedom and a loneliness, both. And it drove me eventually to ... You know, I spent almost ten years involved in Orisha practice and Yoruba ways before I decided to initiate. And it's like a long slow dating process. It wasn't a lot of charisma. It was like, oh, you're the last one left standing, and ... ANDREW: [laughing] DANIEL: We have a ton of compatibility, why are we not doing this? And I go, okay, I guess we're gonna do this. So we just had the high match on the dating, you know, religious dating profile website. So I'm like, oh, maybe we should try this. And, and I haven't regretted it at all. It's very ... It's been a relief. The sense for me is of being held in a bigger frame. And it's not really ... It's not what I teach publicly, I'm not publicly offering services in that way, even though there are certain ones I could, in integrity.  I'm still in training, I'm still trying to learn Yoruba language, and especially with a west African orientation of practice it's such an aural language-based tradition, especially Ifá practice in particular, so I'm trying to hold a ... I think if you're not ancestrally of a tradition, the standards are even a bit higher for you to get it right, which I think is fair and understandable. Especially with the cultural climate of racism in the west and all that, for European ancestor people to be doing west African Ifa, you need to not look like a fool doing it, and so part of that looks like studying the language and really, you know, taking to heart the training.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: But, it's possible to go really deep without stepping into a tradition. And there are a lot of ritual advantages to having a system to work from, as well. So I appreciate both sides of that. Yeah.  ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. I think you can get there ... I think you can accomplish the same ends either way, right?  DANIEL: Yeah, yeah. ANDREW: I think that where it gets, where it gets touchy is where you're solely working independently, but within the set of spirits that has a living tradition. If you're only working independently and devoid of traditional teaching, you know, that's where it starts to become a question for me of what ... DANIEL: Well, yeah, no, if the main powers you're working with are the Orisha, it's like, well, you've got to, here's the front door. You can try crawling in the window, but it's going to go badly, so.  ANDREW: Yeah.  DANIEL: Yeah. But if you're just working with the weird old land gods and your own ancestors, you can get away with it. yeah.  ANDREW: For sure.  DANIEL: Yeah, for sure.  ANDREW: Yeah. I also like the weird old land gods. You know? There's this beautiful ravine, you know, about a two-minute walk from the shop, [crosstalking 36:45] in Toronto. It runs through and you know, under there, there's sort of part of a buried river, that was once upon a time up on the surface, and all sorts of stuff, and there's wonderful and magical energies that are there, and really fascinating things have happened in that space over time. You know? Like I was ... I was there making a ... dealing with something and helping somebody, and making an offering essentially to the spirit of that place in the snow, right? And then when I came out of sort of the wood part back onto the path, all of these moths emerged, these white moths. And I'm like, there's snow on the ground, and it's snowing right now, what is going on with these things? And I'm like, all right, I'll take it. Big old yes from the spirits of this place on that thing, you know?  DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: So I mean yeah, there's some amazing stuff that can happen in those ways, for sure.  DANIEL: Nice. Yeah.  ANDREW: So, I mean, first thing is, I'm going to ask you now if people should, if they're listening to this, and they want to think about starting a, you know, where they should start? And I know that one of the answers is definitely, they should go read your book, cause your book is great. DANIEL: Sure. ANDREW: But like, for the context of our conversation today, where would you kind of point people? Where, where do you point people [inaudible 38:02]? DANIEL: I'm not a very trusting person, really. So, if I were to listen to this conversation, and I didn't know that I'm a good person, I would go to my website, which is ancestralmedicine.org. Root around there, see what the vibe is, and there are other talks, or whatever, and see if you, you know, get an instinctual, this guy's not crazy vibe from where I'm coming from, and if you're drawn to the ancestral work, there are three main ways to engage.  One is to connect with one of the practitioners in the directory there. And there are 30 some people at this point who are trained in the work. Men, women, all different genders of people [38:43--not sure I've got his exact words here], ancestrally diverse people, lots of different opportunities for low income sessions, sessions in seven languages, so, opportunities to connect with people directly for session work. That's the most efficient way. Another is that I offer an online course that starts in December, that's thorough, and it maps along the heart of the book, chapters 5 through 9, which is lineage repair work, and there's a lot of support throughout that course, so that's an option, and I'll also be offering a course through the Shift network in the fall.  And then, a third way is the in-person trainings. And the last one I'm going to guide probably in North America will be in just over a week in Ottawa, the 24th to the 26th, and there's a talk on August 22, next Wednesday, in Ottawa as well, and all the info on that is on my site, and additionally, to that, there are trainings in maybe ten cities and also coming up in Australia and Mexico and maybe Russia and Canada and Victoria, so. And those are done by students who I trust to guide the work. So in person work, online course, or sessions, are, in addition to the book, the three main ways to plug in. Yeah.  ANDREW: Perfect.  DANIEL: And, and, you know, like just to say it, if you're wary of people, which is warranted, this approach to the work doesn't involve the practitioners or me or anybody saying, “Hey, this is what your grandmother says to you.” It's about stepping the individual through a process of reclaiming and re-energizing their ability to connect directly with their own people. So, it's an empowering approach in that way. It's not somebody getting all up in the mix and channeling messages to your people. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just not this approach, so. And especially if your family's a mess, it's useful to do ancestor work. Cause you get some space from all that, and connect with what's beautiful and trustworthy in your own blood and bone lineages. So that's grounding, it's helpful, also for the cultural healing that's needed.  ANDREW: Yes. Well and I think it can be quite liberating, you know, because we're carrying those patterns, right?  DANIEL: Oh, yeah. So you can relate consciously or unconsciously with your people, but you don't get to opt out of relatedness. Yeah. ANDREW: Exactly, right? And if we can tidy those up and take some of that burden off of us or free ourselves from that, right? Then we get to show up much differently in that way, right?  DANIEL: Yeah. I think the masquerades in Yoruba culture, Egungun, and it's a blessing when they come around, but it's also a lot of people try not to be touched by them. And so there's ... It conveys something about the ancestors, like, they're dangerous to avoid and they're dangerous to have around. ANDREW: Yeah.  DANIEL: But, whatever, it's just like living humans. [laughing] ANDREW: For sure. People are challenged on both sides of the veil, right?  DANIEL: [laughing] Yeah, exactly.  ANDREW: For sure.  DANIEL: So, good.  ANDREW: Well, thank you so much for making time today, Daniel. It's been great to hang out and chat with you.  DANIEL: For sure, thanks, Andrew, thanks for your service, here. Blessings on everything you're up to. ANDREW: Thank you. DANIEL: Yeah. Good.   

In today's podcast, Daniel talks with Hana about her trip to Greece. Go to elllo.org for the complete lesson for this audio. Transcript of Conversation | elllo.org | #1259 Greek Vacation Daniel: So we're talking about holidays. Is there any really, really good holidays that you remember? Hana: Well, one of my favourite holidays was when I went to Greece a couple of years ago with my family. Daniel: Wow, Greece, I've never been there. How is it? Sounds really, really nice. Hana: Greece is a very beautiful country. The houses are ... everything is so white and the beaches are so beautiful. Daniel: So what did you do in Greece? Hana: Mainly I just relaxed at the swimming pool and at the beaches. And at night time I went shopping with my mum. And we had some really nice food too. Daniel: Oh, that sounds really interesting, like the perfect holidays. So you said you went with your family, right? Hana: Yes, I went with my mum and dad and brother. Daniel: And for how long did you go there? Hana: We went for four days. And when we went there was a big football tournament. And so everybody was so happy and excited. And at night times everybody will start dancing. And so me and my brother, we would join and dance with them. Daniel: Cool! So did you get to see any of those matches of the tournament? Hana: Yes, I went to see one match with my dad and I had so much fun. Daniel: Oh, it sounds really cool, like really nice holidays. Hana: Yes, it was one of my best holidays. elllo.org