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This week on the blog, a podcast interview with the writer of a great new book, “London After Midnight: The Lost Film,” a book about the classic lost Lon Chaney film.LINKS A Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Daniel's Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/p/London-After-Midnight-The-Lost-Film-100075993768254/Buy the Book “London After Midnight: The Lost Film”: https://www.amazon.com/London-After-Midnight-Lost-Film/dp/1399939890Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcastTRANSCRIPTJohn: So, Daniel, when did you first become aware of London After Midnight? Daniel: I was about seven years old when I first stumbled into Lon Chaney through my love of all things Universal horror, and just that whole plethora of characters and actors that you just knew by name, but hadn't necessarily seen away from the many still photographs of Frankenstein, Dracula, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. And the Phantom was the one to really spark my interest. But this was prior to eBay. I couldn't see the film of Lon Chaney's Phantom of the Opera for a year. So, I kind of had the ultimate build to books and documentaries, just teasing me, teasing me all the time. And when I eventually did watch a few documentaries, the one thing that they all had in common was the name Lon Chaney. I just thought I need to learn more about this character Lon Chaney, because he just found someone of superhuman proportions just who have done all of these crazy diverse characters. And, that's where London After Midnight eventually peeked out at me and, occupied a separate interest as all the Chaney characterizations do.John: So how did you get into the Universal films? Were you watching them on VHS? Were they on tv? Did the DVDs happen by then?Daniel: I was still in the VHS days. My dad is a real big fan of all this as well. So he first saw Bela Lugosi's Dracula, on TV when he was a kid. And prior to me being born he had amassed a huge VHS collection and a lot of those had Boris Karloff, Bela Lugosi, Henry Hull, Claude Rains, Vincent Price, what have you.And a lot of them were dedicated to Universal horrors. And as a young curious kid, my eyes eventually crossed these beautiful cases and I really wanted to watch them. I think my first one I ever watched was The Mummy's Tomb or Curse of the Mummy. And it's just grown ever since, really.John: You're starting at the lesser end of the Universal monsters. It's like someone's starting the Marx Brothers at The Big Store and going, "oh, these are great. I wonder if there's anything better?" Jim: Well, I kinda like the fact that you have come by this fascination, honestly, as my father would say. You sort of inherited the family business, if you will. The book is great. The book is just great. And I'll be honest, I had no, except for recording the novel that John wrote, I really had no frame of reference for London after Midnight.John: Well, Jim, were you a monster guy? Were you a Universal Monster kid?Jim: Oh yeah. I mean, I had all the models. I love all of that, and certainly knew about Lon Chaney as the Phantom of the Opera, as The Hunchback of Notre Dame. I knew he was the man with a thousand faces. I knew he, when he died, he wrote JR. on his makeup kit and gave it to his kid. So, I knew stuff. But London after Midnight I didn't know at all, except for the sort of iconic makeup and that image, which I was familiar with. What was the inspiration for you in terms of writing this book?Daniel: Like you say, I really had no immediate go-to reference for London after Midnight, away from one or two images in a book. Really clearly they were very impactful images of Chaney, skulking around the old haunted mansion with Edna Tichenor by his side with the lantern, the eyes, the teeth, the cloak, the top hat, the webs, everything. Pretty much everything that embodies a good atmospheric horror movie, but obviously we couldn't see it.So that is all its fangs had deepened itself into my bloodstream at that point, just like, why is it lost? Why can't I see it? And again, the term lost film was an alien concept to me at a young age. I've always been a very curious child. Anything that I don't know or understand that much, even things I do understand that well, I always have to try to find out more, 'cause I just can't accept that it's like a bookend process. It begins and then it ends. And that was the thing with London after Midnight. Everything I found in books or in little interviews, they were just all a bit too brief. And I just thought there has to be a deeper history here, as there are with many of the greatest movies of all time. But same with the movies that are more obscure. There is a full history there somewhere because, 'cause a film takes months to a year to complete.It was definitely a good challenge for me. When we first had our first home computer, it was one of those very few early subjects I was typing in like crazy to try to find out everything that I could. And, that all incubated in my little filing cabinet, which I was able to call upon years later.Some things which were redundant, some things which I had the only links to that I had printed off in advance quite, sensibly so, but then there were certain things that just had lots of question marks to me. Like, what year did the film perish? How did it perish? The people who saw the film originally?And unlike a lot of Chaney films, which have been covered in immense detail, London after Midnight, considering it's the most famous of all lost films, still for me, had major holes in it that I just, really wanted to know the answers to. A lot of those answers, eventually, I found, even people who knew and institutions that knew information to key events like famous MGM Fire, they were hard pressed to connect anything up, in regards to the film. It was like a jigsaw puzzle. I had all these amazing facts. However, none of them kind of made sense with each other.My favorite thing is researching and finding the outcomes to these things. So that's originally what spiraled me into the storm of crafting this, initial dissertation that I set myself, which eventually became so large. I had to do it as a book despite, I'd always wanted to do a book as a kid.When you see people that you idolize for some reason, you just want to write a book on them. Despite, there had been several books on Lon Chaney. But I just always knew from my childhood that I always wanted to contribute a printed volume either on Chaney or a particular film, and London after Midnight seemed to present the opportunity to me.I really just didn't want it to be a rehash of everything that we had seen before or read before in other accounts or in the Famous Monsters of Filmland Magazine, but just with a new cover. So, I thought I would only do a book if I could really contribute a fresh new perspective on the subject, which I hope hopefully did.John: Oh, you absolutely did. And this is an exhaustive book and a little exhausting. There's a ton of stuff in here. You mentioned Famous Monster of the Filmland, which is where I first saw that image. There's at least one cover of the magazine that used that image. And Forrest Ackerman had some good photos and would use them whenever he could and also would compare them to Mark the Vampire, the remake, partially because I think Carol Borland was still alive and he could interview her. And he talked about that remake quite a bit. But that iconic image that he put on the cover and whenever he could in the magazine-- Jim and I were talking before you came on, Daniel, about in my mind when you think of Lon Chaney, there's three images that come to mind: Phantom of the Opera, Quasimoto, and this one. And I think this one, the Man in the Beaver hat probably is the most iconic of his makeups, because, 'cause it is, it's somehow it got adopted into the culture as this is what you go to when it's a creepy guy walking around. And that's the one that everyone remembers. Do you have any idea, specifically what his process was for making that look, because it, it is I think ultimately a fairly simple design. It's just really clever.Daniel: Yes, it probably does fall into the category of his more simplistic makeups. But, again, Chaney did a lot of things simplistic-- today --were never seen back then in say, 1927. Particularly in the Phantom of the Opera's case in 1925, in which a lot of that makeup today would be done through CG, in terms of trying to eliminate the nose or to make your lips move to express dialogue. Chaney was very fortunate to have lived in the pantomime era, where he didn't have to rely on how his voice would sound, trying to talk through those dentures, in which case the makeup would probably have to have been more tamed to allow audio recorded dialogue to properly come through.But with regards to the beaver hat makeup, he had thin wires that fitted around his eyes to give it a more hypnotic stare. The teeth, which he had constructed by a personal dentist, eventually had a wire attached to the very top that held the corners of his mouth, opening to a nice curved, fixated, almost joker like grin.You can imagine with the monocles around his eyes, he was thankful there probably wasn't that much wind on a closed set, because he probably couldn't have closed his eyes that many times. But a lot of these things become spoken about and detailed over time with mythic status. That he had to have his eyes operated on to achieve the constant widening of his eyelids. Or the teeth -- he could only wear the teeth for certain periods of time before accidentally biting his tongue or his lips, et cetera. But Chaney certainly wasn't a sadist, with himself, with his makeups. He was very professional. Although he did go through undoubtedly a lot of discomfort, especially probably the most, explicit case would be for the Hunchback of Notre Dame, in which his whole body is crooked down into a stooped position.But, with London After Midnight, I do highly suspect that the inspiration for that makeup in general came from the Dracula novel. And because MGM had not acquired the rights to the Dracula novel, unlike how Universal acquired the rights of the Hunchback or, more importantly, Phantom of the Opera, by which point Gaston Leroux was still alive.It was just a loose adaptation of Dracula. But nevertheless, when you read the description of Dracula in Bram Stoker's novel, he does bear a similarity to Chaney's vampire, in which it's the long hair, a mouth full of sharp teeth, a ghastly pale palor and just dressed all in black and carries around a lantern.Whereas Bela Lugosi takes extraordinary leaps and turns away from the Stoker novel. But it must have definitely had an impact at the time, enough for MGM to over-market the image of Chaney's vampire, which only appears in the film for probably just under four minutes, compared to his detective disguise, which is the real main character of the film.Although the thing we all wanna see is Cheney moving about as the vampire and what facial expressions he pulled. It's just something that we just want to see because it's Lon Chaney.John: Right. And it makes you wonder if he had lived and had gotten to play Dracula, he kind of boxed himself into a corner, then if he'd already used the look from the book, you wonder what he would've come up with, if Lugosi hadn't done it, and if Chaney had had been our first Dracula.Jim: You know, the other thing that I think of strictly like through my actor filter is here's a guy who -- take Hunchback or Phantom or even this thing -- whatever process he went through to put that makeup on, you know, was hours of work, I'm sure. Hunchback several hours of work to get to that, that he did himself, and then they'd film all day.So, on top of, I mean, I just think that that's like, wow, when you think about today where somebody might go into a makeup chair and have two or three people working on them to get the look they want. Even if it took a few hours, that person is just sitting there getting the makeup done. He's doing all of this, and then turns in a full day, uh, in front of the cameras, which to me is like, wow, that's incredible.Daniel: Definitely, it's like two jobs in one. I imagine for an actor it must be really grueling in adapting to a makeup, especially if it's a heavy makeup where it covers the whole of your head or crushes down your nose, changes your lips, the fumes of chemicals going into your eyes.But then by the end of it, I imagine you are quite exhausted from just your head adapting to that. But then you have to go out and act as well. With Chaney, I suppose he could be more of a perfectionist than take as much time as he wanted within reason. And then once he came to the grueling end of it all, he's actually gotta go out and act countless takes. Probably repair a lot of the makeup as well after, after a couple of takes, certainly with things like the Hunchback or the Phantom of the Opera.John: And, you know, it's not only is he doing the makeup and acting, but in, you know, not so much in London After Midnight, but in Phantom of the Opera, he is quite athletic. When the phantom moves, he really moves. He's not stooped. He's got a lot of energy to him and he's got a makeup on that, unlike the Quasimoto makeup, what he's attempting to do with the phantom is, reductive. He's trying to take things away from his face.Daniel: Mm-hmm.John: And he's using all the tricks he knows and lighting to make that happen, but that means he's gotta hit particular marks for the light to hit it just right. And for you to see that his face is as, you know, skull-like as he made it. When you see him, you know, in London After Midnight as the professor inspector character, he has got a normal full man's face. It's a real face. Much like his son, he had a kind of a full face and what he was able to do with a phantom and take all that away, and be as physical as he was, is just phenomenal. I mean, he was a really, besides the makeup, he was a really good actor.Daniel: Oh, definitely. Jim: I agree with that completely. I kind of in what I watched, I wonder if he was the makeup artist, but not the actor and he did exactly the same makeup on somebody else. And so we had the same image. If those things would've resonated with us the way they do today. I think it had everything to do with who he was and his abilities in addition to the incredible makeup. He was just a tremendous performer.Daniel: Absolutely. He was a true multitasker. In his early days of theater, he was not only an actor, but he was a choreographer. He had a lot of jobs behind the scenes as well. Even when he had become a star in his own time, he would still help actors find the character within them. like Norma Sheera, et cetera. People who were kind of new to the movie making scene and the directors didn't really have that much patience with young actors or actresses. Whereas Chaney, because of his clout in the industry, no one really interfered with Chaney's authority on set. But he would really help actors find the character, find the emotion, 'cause it was just all about how well you translate it over for the audience, as opposed to the actor feeling a certain way that convinces themselves that they're the character. Chaney always tried to get the emotions across to the audience. Patsy Ruth Miller, who played Esemerelda in in the Hunchback, said that Chaney directed the film more than the director actually did.The director was actually even suggested by Chaney. So, Chaney really had his hands everywhere in the making of a film. And Patsy Ruth Miller said the thing that she learned from him was that it's the actress's job to make the audience feel how the character's meant to be feeling, and not necessarily the actor to feel what they should be feeling based on the script and the settings and everything.So I think, that's why Chaney in particular stands out, among all of the actors of his time.John: I think he would've transitioned really well into sound. I think, he had everything necessary to make that transition.Jim: There's one sound picture with him in it, isn't there, doesn't he? Doesn't he play a ventriloquist? John: I believe so.Daniel: Yes, it was a remake of The Unholy Three that he had made in 1925 as Echo the ventriloquist, and the gangster. And yes, by the time MGM had decided to pursue talkies -- also, funny enough, they were one of the last studios to transition to, just because they were the most, one, probably the most dominant studio in all of Hollywood, that they didn't feel the pressure to compete with the burgeoning talkie revolution.So they could afford to take their time, they could release a talkie, but then they could release several silent films and the revenue would still be amazing for the studio. Whereas other studios probably had to conform really quick just because they didn't have the star system, that MGM shamelessly flaunted. And several Chaney films had been transitioned to sound at this point with or without Chaney. But for Chaney himself, because he himself was the special effect, it was guaranteed to be a winner even if it had been an original story that isn't as remembered today strictly because people get to hear the thing that's been denied them for all this time, which is Chaney's voice. And he would've transitioned very easily to talkies is because he had a very rich, deep voice, which, coming from theater, he had to have had, in terms of doing dialogue. He wasn't someone like a lot of younger actors who had started out predominantly in feature films who could only pantomime lines. Chaney actually knew how to deliver dialogue, so it did feel natural and it didn't feel read off the page.And he does about five voices in The Unholy Three. So MGM was truly trying to market, his voice for everything that they could. As Mrs. O'Grady, his natural voice, he imitates a parrot and a girl. And yeah, he really would've flourished in the sound era. Jim: Yeah. John: Any surprises, as it sounds like you were researching this for virtually your whole life, but were there any surprises that you came across, as you really dug in about the film?Daniel: With regards to London after Midnight, the main surprise was undoubtedly the -- probably the star chapter of the whole thing -- which is the nitrate frames from an actual destroyed print of the film itself, which sounds crazy to even being able to say it. But, yeah the nitrate frames themselves presented a quandary of questions that just sent me into a whole nother research mode trying to find out where these impossible images came from, who they belonged to, why they even existed, why they specifically existed.Because, looking for something that, you know, you are told doesn't exist. And then to find it, you kind of think someone is watching over you, planting this stuff as though it's the ultimate tease. To find a foreign movie poster for London After Midnight would be one thing, but to find actual pieces of the lost film itself. It was certainly the most out of body experience I've ever had. Just to find something that I set out to find, but then you find it and you still can't believe that you've actually found it.John: How did you find it?Daniel: I had connections with a few foreign archives who would befriend me and took to my enthusiasm with the silent era, and specifically Chaney and all the stars connected to Chaney films.And, quite early on I was told that there were a few photo albums that had various snippets of silent films from Chaney. They didn't really go into what titles these were, 'cause they were just all a jumble. All I knew is that they came from (garbled) widow. And he had acquired prints of the whole films from various, I suppose, junk stores in Spain.But not being a projectionist, he just purely took them at the face value that he just taken the images and snipping them up and putting them in photo albums, like how you would just do with photographs. And then the rest of the material was sadly discarded by fire. So, all we were left with were these snipped relics, survivors almost to several Chaney lost films. Some of them not lost, but there were films like The Phantom of the Opera in there, the Hunchback of Notre Dame, Mockery, The Unknown. But then there were several lost films such as London After Midnight, the Big City, Thunder. And All the Brothers were Valiant, which are mainly other than Thunder are all totally complete lost films.So, to find this little treasure trove, it was just finding out what the images meant and connecting them up, trying to put them in some sort of chronological scholarly order. Grueling, but it was very fun at the same time. And because I had identified myself with all of these surviving production stills from the film -- a lot of them, which formed the basis of the 2002 reconstruction by Turner Classic Movies -- it didn't take me too long to identify what scenes these surviving nitrate frames were from. But there were several frames which had sets that I recognized and costumes that I recognized, but in the photographic stills, they don't occupy the same space at the same time. So, it's like the two separate elements had crossed over. So that left me with a scholarly, question of what I was looking at. I was able to go back and, sort of rectify certain wrongs that have been accepted throughout the sixties as being the original, say, opening to London after Midnight. So I've, been able to disprove a few things that have made the film, I suppose, a bit more puzzling to audiences. Some audiences didn't really get what the plot was to begin with. So, it was nice to actually put a bit more order to the madness finally.John: At what point did you come across the original treatment and the script?Daniel: The treatment and the script, they came from a private collector who had bought them at auction a number of years ago who I was able to thankfully contact, and they still had the two documents in question. I had learned through Philip J Riley's previous books on London after Midnight that he had the two latter drafts of the script, the second edition and the third draft edition.And, again, the question of why and where. I just always wondered where that first draft of the script was, hoping it would contain new scenes, and open new questions for me and to study. And once I've managed to find those two documents, they did present a lot of new, perspectives and material that added to the fuller plot of the original hypnotist scenario, as opposed to the shortened, time efficient London After Midnight film that was ultimately delivered to audiences. So again, it helped to put a little bit more order to the madness.Jim: You found an actual piece of the film that you were able to, somebody got images from it? And then you found the scripts? But the images are terrific and they're all in your book. They came from what exactly?Daniel: The just below 20 images of the film came from originally a distribution print, a Spanish distribution print, from about 1928. Originally, they were on 35 millimeter indicating that they were from the studio and as is with a lot of silent films that have been found in foreign archives.Normally when a film is done with its distribution, it would have to be returned to the original studio to be destroyed, except for the original negative and a studio print, because there is no reason why a studio would need to keep the thousands of prints when they have the pristine copy in their vault. But, in a lot of smaller theater cases, in order to save money on the postage of the shipping, they would just basically declare that they had destroyed the film on the studio's behalf. There was no record system with this stuff and that's how a lot of these films ended up in the basements of old theaters, which are eventually when they closed, the assets were sold off to collectors or traveling showmen. And eventually these films found their ways into archives or again, private collections. Some of which people know what they have.A lot of times they don't know what they have because they're more obsessed with, naturally, more dedicated to preserving the films of their own culture that was shown at the time, as opposed to a foreign American title, which they probably assume they already have a copy of. But it's how a lot of these films get found.And, with the London After Midnight, example, there were the images that I found spanned the entire seven reels, because they came from different points in the film. It wasn't a single strip of film, of a particular scene. Having thankfully the main source that we have for London After Midnight is the cutting continuity, which is the actual film edited down shot for shot, length for length.And it describes, briefly, although descriptive enough, what is actually in each and every single shot of the film. And comparing the single frame images from the film with this document, I was able to identify at what point these frames came from during the film, which again spanned the entire seven reels, indicating that a complete seven reel version of the film had gotten out under the studio system at one point.As is the case, I'm assuming, 'cause these came from the same collection, I'm assuming it was the same with the other lost Chaney films that again, sadly only survive in snippet form.John: It's like somebody was a collector and his wife said, "well, we don't have room for all this. Just take the frames you like and we'll get rid of the rest of it." So, you mentioned in passing the 2002 reconstruction that Turner Classic Movies did using the existing stills. I don't know if they were working from any of the scripts or not. That was the version I originally saw when I was working on writing, those portions of The Misers Dream that mentioned London After Midnight. Based on what you know now, how close is that reconstruction and where do you think they got it right and where'd they get it wrong?Daniel: The 2002, reconstruction, while a very commendable production, it does stray from the original edited film script. Again, the problem that they clearly faced on that production is that there were not enough photographed scenes to convey all the photographed scenes from the film. So what they eventually fell into the trap of doing was having to reuse the same photograph to sometimes convey two separate scenes, sometimes flipping the image to appear on the opposite side of the camera. And, because of the certain lack of stills in certain scenes cases, they had to rewrite them.And sometimes a visual scene had to have been replaced with an inter-title card, merely describing what had happened or describing a certain period in time, as opposed to showing a photograph of what we're meant to be seeing as opposed to just reading. So, they did the best with what they had.But since then, there have been several more images crop up in private collections or in the archives. So, unless a version of the film gets found, it's certainly an endeavor that could be revisited, I think, and either do a new visual reconstruction of sort, or attempt some sort remake of the film even.Jim: That's an idea. John: They certainly have the materials to do that. I've got an odd question. There's one famous image, a still image from the film, showing Chaney as Professor Burke, and he is reaching out to the man in the beaver hat whose back is to us. Is that a promo photo? Spoiler alert, Burke is playing the vampire in the movie. He admits that that's him. So, he never would've met the character. What is the story behind that photo?Daniel: There are actually three photographs depicting that, those characters that you described. There are the two photographs which show Chaney in the Balfor mansion seemingly directing a cloaked, top hatted figure with long hair, with its back towards us. And then there is another photograph of Chaney in the man in the beaver hat disguise with a seemingly twin right beside him outside of a door.Basically the scenes in the film in which Chaney appear to the Hamlin residents, the people who are being preyed upon by the alleged vampires, the scenes where Chaney and the vampire need to coexist in the same space or either appear to be in the same vicinity to affect other characters while at the same time interrogating others, Chaney's character of Burke employs a series of assistants to either dress up as vampires or at certain times dress up as his version of the vampire to parade around and pretend that they are the man in the beaver hat. Those particular shots, though, the vampire was always, photographed from behind rather than the front.The very famous scene, which was the scene that got first got me interested in London After Midnight, in which the maidm played by Polly Moran is in the chair shrieking at Chaney's winged self, hovering over her. It was unfortunate to me to realize that that was actually a flashback scene told from the maid's perspective.And by the end of the film, the maid is revealed to be an informant of Burke, a secret detective also. So, it's really a strong suspension of disbelief has to be employed because the whole scene of Chaney chasing the maid through the house and appearing under the door, that was clearly just the MGMs marketing at work just to show Chaney off in a bizarre makeup with a fantastic costume.Whereas he is predominantly the detective and the scenes where he's not needed to hypnotize a character in the full vampire makeup, he just employs an assistant who parades around in the house as him, all the times with his back turned so that the audience can't latch on as to who the character actually is, 'cause it must have posed quite a fun confusion that how can Chaney be a detective in this room where the maid has just ran from the Vampire, which is also Chaney?John: Yeah, and it doesn't help that the plot is fairly convoluted anyway, and then you add that layer. So, do you think we'll ever see a copy of it? Do you think it's in a basement somewhere?Daniel: I've always personally believed that the film does exist. Not personally out of just an unfounded fanboy wish, but just based on the evidence and examples of other films that have been found throughout time. Metropolis being probably the most prominent case. But, at one point there was nothing on London After Midnight and now there is just short of 20 frames for the film. So, if that can exist currently now in the year 2023, what makes us think that more footage can't be found by, say, 2030? I think with fans, there's such a high expectation that if it's not found in their own lifetime or in their own convenience space of time, it must not exist. There's still a lot of silent lost treasures that just have not been found at all that do exist though. So, with London After Midnight, from a purely realistic standpoint, I've always theorized myself that the film probably does exist in an archive somewhere, but it would probably be a very abridged, foreign condensed version, as opposed to a pristine 35-millimeter print that someone had ripped to safety stock because they knew in the future the film would become the most coveted of all lost films. So, I do believe it does exist. The whole theory of it existing in a private collection and someone's waiting to claim the newfound copyright on it, I think after December of last year, I think it's finally put that theory to rest. I don't think a collector consciously knows they have a copy of it. So, I think it's lost until found personally, but probably within an archive.Jim: Lost until found. That's a great title for a book. I like that a lot. What do you think of the remake, Mark of the Vampire and in your opinion, what does it tell us about, London After Midnight?Daniel: Well, Mark of the Vampire came about again, part of the Sound Revolution. It was one of those because it was Chaney and Todd Browning's most successful film for the studio. And Browning was currently, being held on a tight leash by MGM because of his shocking disaster film Freaks, I suppose they were a little bit nervous about giving him the reign to do what he wanted again. So, looking through their backlog of smash silent hits, London After Midnight seemed the most logical choice to remake, just simply because it was their most, successful collaboration. Had it have been The Unholy Three, I'm sure? Oh no, we already had The Unholy Three, but had it have been another Browning Chaney collaboration, it might have been The Unknown, otherwise. So, I suppose that's why London After Midnight was selected and eventually turned into Mark of the Vampire. The story does not stray too much from London After Midnight, although they seem to complicate it a little bit more by taking the Burke vampire character and turning it this time into three characters played by three different actors, all of which happened to be in cahoots with one another in trying to solve an old murder mystery.It's very atmospherical. You can definitely tell it's got Todd Browning signature on it. It's more pondering with this one why they just did not opt to make a legit, supernatural film, rather than go in the pseudo vampire arena that they pursued in 1927. Where audiences had by now become accustomed to the supernatural with Dracula and Frankenstein in 1931, which no longer relied on a detective trying to find out a certain mystery and has to disguise themselves as a monster.The monster was actually now a real thing in the movies. So I think if Bela Lugosi had been given the chance to have played a real Count Mora as a real vampire, I think it would've been slightly better received as opposed to a dated approach that was clearly now not the fashionable thing to do.I suppose again, because Browning was treading a very thin line with MGM, I suppose he couldn't really stray too far from the original source material. But I find it a very atmospherical film, although I think the story works better as a silent film than it does as a sound film, because there's a lot of silent scenes in that film, away from owls, hooting and armadillos scurrying about and winds. But I do think, based on things like The Cat and The Canary from 1927 and The Last Warning, I just think that detective sleuth with horror overtones serves better to the silent world than it does the sound world away from the legit, supernatural.John: So, if Chaney hadn't died, do you think he would have played Dracula? Do you think he would've been in Freaks? Would Freaks have been more normalized because it had a big name in it like that?Daniel: It would've been interesting if Chaney had played in Freaks. I think because Todd Browning used the kinds of individuals that he used for Freaks, maybe Chaney would've, for a change, had been the most outta place.John: Mm-hmm.Daniel: I do think he might have played Dracula. I think Universal would've had a hell of a time trying to get him over because he had just signed a new contract with MGM, whereas Todd Browning had transferred over to Universal by 1930 and really wanted to make Dracula for many years and probably discussed it with Chaney as far back as 1920.But certainly MGM would not have permitted Chaney to have gone over to Universal, even for a temporary period, without probably demanding a large piece of the action, in a financial sense, because Universal had acquired the rights to Dracula at this point. And, based on the stage play that had, come out on Broadway, it was probably assured that it was going to be a giant moneymaker, based on the success of the Dracula play.But because of Cheney's, status as a, I suppose retrospectively now, as a horror actor, he was probably the first person to be considered for that role by Carl Laemmle, senior and Junior for that matter. And Chaney gone by 1930, it did pose a puzzle as to who could take over these kinds of roles.Chaney was probably the only one to really successfully do it and make the monster an actual box office ingredient more than any other actor at that time, as he did with. Phantom, Blind Bargain and London After Midnight. So, I think to have pursued Chaney for a legit, supernatural film would've had enormous possibilities for Browning and Chaney himself.You can kind of see a trend, a trilogy forming, with Browning, from London After Midnight, in which he incorporates things he used in Dracula in London After Midnight. So, he kind of had this imagery quite early on. So, to go from – despite it's not in that order -- but to have London After Midnight, Mark of the Vampire, and he also did Dracula, he clearly was obsessed with the story. And I think Chaney was probably the, best actor for someone like Browning who complimented his way of thinking and approach to things like silence. As opposed to needing dialogue all the time, loud commotions. So, I think they dovetailed each other quite well, and that's why their ten year director actor relationship was as groundbreaking as it was.Jim: If the film does surface, if we find the film, what do you think people, how are they gonna react to the movie when they see it? What do you think? What's gonna be the reaction if it does surface?Daniel: Well, the lure of London After Midnight, the power in the film is its lost status rather than its widespread availability. I think it could never live up to the expectation that we've built up in our heads over the past 40 to 60 years. It was truly people, fans like Forrest J Ackerman that introduced and reignited the interest in Chaney's career by the late fifties and 1960s. That's when London After Midnight started to make the rounds in rumor, the rumors of a potential print existing, despite the film had not long been destroyed at that point. So, it was always a big mystery. There were always people who wanted to see the film, but with no access to home video, or et cetera, the only way you could probably see the film would've been at the studio who held everything. And, by the time the TV was coming out, a lot of silent films didn't make it to TV. So again, it has just germinated in people's heads probably in a better form than what they actually remembered. But, the true reality of London After Midnight is one more closer to the ground than it is in it's people are probably expecting to see something very supernatural on par with Dracula, whereas it's more so a Sherlock Holmes story with mild horrorish overtones to it that you can kind of see better examples of later on in Dracula in 1930 and in Mark of the Vampire.It's a film purely, I think for Lon Chaney fans. For myself, having read everything I can on the film, everything I've seen on the film, I personally love silent, detective stories, all with a touch of horror. So, I personally would know what I am going in to see. I'm not going in to see Chaney battling a Van Helsing like figure and turn to dust at the very end or turning to a bat. I'm going to see a detective melodrama that happens to have what looks like a vampire. So, it certainly couldn't live up to the expectations in people's minds and it's probably the only film to have had the greatest cheapest, marketing in history, I would think. It's one of those films, if it was discovered, you really would not have to do much marketing to promote it.It's one of those that in every fanzine, magazine, documentary referenced in pop. It has really marketed itself into becoming what I always call the mascot of the genre. There are other more important lost films that have been lost to us. The main one again, which has been found in its more complete form, was Metropolis, which is a better movie.But unlike Metropolis, London After Midnight has a lot more famous ingredients to it. It has a very famous director. It has a very famous actor whose process was legendary even during then. And it's actually the only film in which he actually has his make-up case make a cameo appearance by the very end. And it goes on the thing that everyone in every culture loves, which is the vampirism, the dark tales and folklore. So, when you say it, it just gets your imagination going. Whereas I think if you are watching it, it's probably you'll be looking over the projector to see if something even better is going to happen.The film had its mixed reactions when it originally came out. People liked it because it gave them that cheap thrill of being a very atmospherical, haunted house with the creepy figures of Chaney walking across those dusty hallways. But then the more important story is a murder mystery.It's not Dracula, but it has its own things going for it. I always kind of harken it back to the search for the Lochness Monster or Bigfoot. It has more power in your mind than it does in an aquarium or in a zoo. Hearing someone say that they think they saw something moving around in Lochness, but there's no photographic evidence, you just have the oral story, that is much more tangible in a way than actually seeing it in an aquarium where you can take it for granted. And it's the same with London After Midnight, and I think that's why a lot of hoaxster and pranksters tend to say that they have seen London After Midnight more than any other lost film.Jim: For a film that I would say the majority of the world does not have any frame of reference, and I'm using myself as the sort of blueprint for that, no frame of reference for this film. That image is iconic in a way that has been, I mean, it at first glance could be Jack the Ripper. I was talking to John before we started the podcast, once I locked in on that image, then I started to think, oh, the ghosts in Disney's Haunted Mansion, there's a couple of ghosts that have elements of that. I mean, it was so perfectly done, even though we don't, I bet you nine out ten people don't know the title London After Midnight, but I bet you seven outta ten people know this image.Daniel: Definitely, it has certainly made its mark on pop culture, again, I think because I think it's such a beautiful, simplistic design. Everything from the simplistically [garbled] to the bulging eyes and the very nice top hat as well, which is in itself today considered a very odd accessory for a grotesque, vampire character.But it's one of those things that has really carried over. It's influenced what the movies and artists. It was one of the influences for the Babadook creation for that particular monster. It was an influence on the Black Phone. It's just a perfect frame of reference for movie makers and sculptors and artists to keep taking from.John: Yep. It's, it'll live long beyond us. Daniel, one last question. I read somewhere or heard somewhere. You're next gonna tackle James Whale, is that correct? Daniel: James Whale is a subject, again, coming from, I happen to come from the exact same town that he was born and raised in, in Dudley, England. So, it's always been a subject close to home for me, which is quite convenient because I love his movies. So, I'm hoping to eventually, hopefully plan a documentary feature on him, based on a lot of family material in the surrounding areas that I was able to hunt down, and forgotten histories about him and just put it together in some form, hopefully in the future.John: That would be fantastic, and we'll have you back at that point.Jim: So, let's pretend for a minute that the audience is me, and they'd have absolutely no idea who James Whale is or what he's done. Just for a minute, let's pretend.John: Pretend that you don't know that?Jim: Yeah.Daniel: James Whale is the most known for his work for directing Frankenstein with Boris Karloff in 1931. But he also directed probably some of the most important horror films that have ever existed in the history of motion pictures. The Old Dark House, which can be cited with its very atmospherical, and black comedy tones, The Invisible Man with Claude Rains and Gloria Stewart in 1933. And, the most important one, which is probably the grand jewel in the whole of the Universal Monsters Empire, which is Bride of Frankenstein in 1935, which is the ultimate, example of everything that he had studied, everything that he'd learned with regards to cinema and comedy, life and death, and just making a very delicious cocktail of a movie in all of its black comedy, horrific, forms that we're still asking questions about today. One of his first films that he did was for Howard Hughes Hell's Angels, in which -- because he'd coming over from theater -- when again, films in America were taken off with the sound revolution. They all of a sudden needed British directors to translate English dialogue better than the actors could convey.So, James Whale was one of many to be taken over to America when he had a hit play called Journeys End, which became the most successful war play at that point. And he did his own film adaptation of Journeys End. He also did a really remarkable film called Showboat, which is another very iconic film.And again, someone with James Whale's horror credentials, you just think, how could someone who directed Frankenstein directed Showboat? But, clearly a very, very talented director who clearly could not be pigeonholed at the time as a strictly horror director, despite it is the horror films in which he is remembered for, understandably so, just because they contain his very individualistic wit and humor and his outlooks on life and politics. And being an openly gay director at the time, he really was a force unto himself. He was a very modern man even then.

Quiet Time Coaching Episode 476 | New Thing Series — Part 31 | “Daniel's Purity” | Malcolm Cox Introduction A new thing! I'm Malcolm Cox. Welcome to your daily devotional podcast anchored in Isaiah 43:19: 'See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland.' We are currently looking at God doing a new thing in the life of Daniel. Today we explore Daniel's purity. “But Daniel resolved that he would not defile himself with the royal rations of food and wine; so he asked the palace master to allow him not to defile himself. Now God allowed Daniel to receive favour and compassion from the palace master. The palace master said to Daniel, “I am afraid of my lord the king; he has appointed your food and your drink. If he should see you in poorer condition than the other young men of your own age, you would endanger my head with the king.” Then Daniel asked the guard whom the palace master had appointed over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: “Please test your servants for ten days. Let us be given vegetables to eat and water to drink. You can then compare our appearance with the appearance of the young men who eat the royal rations, and deal with your servants according to what you observe.” So he agreed to this proposal and tested them for ten days. At the end of ten days it was observed that they appeared better and fatter than all the young men who had been eating the royal rations. So the guard continued to withdraw their royal rations and the wine they were to drink, and gave them vegetables. To these four young men God gave knowledge and skill in every aspect of literature and wisdom; Daniel also had insight into all visions and dreams. At the end of the time that the king had set for them to be brought in, the palace master brought them into the presence of Nebuchadnezzar, and the king spoke with them. And among them all, no one was found to compare with Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah; therefore they were stationed in the king's court. In every matter of wisdom and understanding concerning which the king inquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters in his whole kingdom. And Daniel continued there until the first year of King Cyrus.” (Daniel 1:8-21 NRSV) We do not know precisely why Daniel chose this diet. Vegetables would not be any safer from ritual contamination than meat. I offer you this thought by Joyce Baldwin quoted in a commentary on Daniel: “It would seem that Daniel rejected this symbol of dependence on the king because he wished to be free to fulfil his primary obligations to the God he served. The defilement he feared was not so much a ritual as a moral defilement, arising from the subtle flattery of gifts and favours which entailed hidden implications of loyal support, however dubious the King's future policies might prove to be." Daniel's purity Is an act of faith Is God-focused Is effective in impressing pagans Is blessed by God For Reflection We similarly make decisions which the world would find strange. We attend church services instead of having extra time to do whatever we want. We pray to an invisible God! We hold to a moral and ethical code which seems outdated to most of society. Perhaps you can relate to what Peter wrote: “You have already spent enough time in doing what the Gentiles like to do, living in licentiousness, passions, drunkenness, revels, carousing, and lawless idolatry. They are surprised that you no longer join them in the same excesses of dissipation, and so they blaspheme.” (1 Peter 4:3-4 NRSV) Are there any current situations in your life over which you are finding it hard to make a decision because of how it might look to other people? Will doing things gods way make you look strange? Why not pray that you can take inspiration from Daniel and his friends? Conclusion I hope you find your heart, your life, your congregation and your world inspired by God doing a new thing. Until tomorrow, take care, and God bless. Please add your comments on this week's topic. We learn best when we learn in community. Do you have a question about teaching the Bible? Is it theological, technical, practical? Send me your questions or suggestions. Here's the email: malcolm@malcolmcox.org. If you'd like a copy of my free eBook on spiritual disciplines, “How God grows His people”, sign up at my website: http://www.malcolmcox.org. Please pass the link on, subscribe, leave a review. "Carpe Diem" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Quiet Time Coaching Episode 476 | New Thing Series — Part 31 | “Daniel's Purity” | Malcolm Cox   Introduction A new thing! I'm Malcolm Cox. Welcome to your daily devotional podcast anchored in Isaiah 43:19: 'See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland.'   We are currently looking at God doing a new thing in the life of Daniel. Today we explore Daniel's purity.   “But Daniel resolved that he would not defile himself with the royal rations of food and wine; so he asked the palace master to allow him not to defile himself. Now God allowed Daniel to receive favour and compassion from the palace master. The palace master said to Daniel, “I am afraid of my lord the king; he has appointed your food and your drink. If he should see you in poorer condition than the other young men of your own age, you would endanger my head with the king.” Then Daniel asked the guard whom the palace master had appointed over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: “Please test your servants for ten days. Let us be given vegetables to eat and water to drink. You can then compare our appearance with the appearance of the young men who eat the royal rations, and deal with your servants according to what you observe.” So he agreed to this proposal and tested them for ten days. At the end of ten days it was observed that they appeared better and fatter than all the young men who had been eating the royal rations. So the guard continued to withdraw their royal rations and the wine they were to drink, and gave them vegetables. To these four young men God gave knowledge and skill in every aspect of literature and wisdom; Daniel also had insight into all visions and dreams. At the end of the time that the king had set for them to be brought in, the palace master brought them into the presence of Nebuchadnezzar, and the king spoke with them. And among them all, no one was found to compare with Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah; therefore they were stationed in the king's court. In every matter of wisdom and understanding concerning which the king inquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters in his whole kingdom. And Daniel continued there until the first year of King Cyrus.” (Daniel 1:8-21 NRSV)   We do not know precisely why Daniel chose this diet. Vegetables would not be any safer from ritual contamination than meat. I offer you this thought by Joyce Baldwin quoted in a commentary on Daniel:   “It would seem that Daniel rejected this symbol of dependence on the king because he wished to be free to fulfil his primary obligations to the God he served. The defilement he feared was not so much a ritual as a moral defilement, arising from the subtle flattery of gifts and favours which entailed hidden implications of loyal support, however dubious the King's future policies might prove to be."   Daniel's purity Is an act of faith Is God-focused Is effective in impressing pagans Is blessed by God   For Reflection We similarly make decisions which the world would find strange. We attend church services instead of having extra time to do whatever we want. We pray to an invisible God! We hold to a moral and ethical code which seems outdated to most of society. Perhaps you can relate to what Peter wrote:   “You have already spent enough time in doing what the Gentiles like to do, living in licentiousness, passions, drunkenness, revels, carousing, and lawless idolatry. They are surprised that you no longer join them in the same excesses of dissipation, and so they blaspheme.” (1 Peter 4:3-4 NRSV)   Are there any current situations in your life over which you are finding it hard to make a decision because of how it might look to other people? Will doing things gods way make you look strange? Why not pray that you can take inspiration from Daniel and his friends?   Conclusion I hope you find your heart, your life, your congregation and your world inspired by God doing a new thing. Until tomorrow, take care, and God bless.   Please add your comments on this week's topic. We learn best when we learn in community.   Do you have a question about teaching the Bible? Is it theological, technical, practical? Send me your questions or suggestions. Here's the email: malcolm@malcolmcox.org.   If you'd like a copy of my free eBook on spiritual disciplines, “How God grows His people”, sign up at my website: http://www.malcolmcox.org.   Please pass the link on, subscribe, leave a review.   "Carpe Diem" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Quiet Time Coaching Episode 476 | New Thing Series — Part 31 | “Daniel's Purity” | Malcolm Cox   Introduction A new thing! I'm Malcolm Cox. Welcome to your daily devotional podcast anchored in Isaiah 43:19: 'See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland.'   We are currently looking at God doing a new thing in the life of Daniel. Today we explore Daniel's purity.   “But Daniel resolved that he would not defile himself with the royal rations of food and wine; so he asked the palace master to allow him not to defile himself. Now God allowed Daniel to receive favour and compassion from the palace master. The palace master said to Daniel, “I am afraid of my lord the king; he has appointed your food and your drink. If he should see you in poorer condition than the other young men of your own age, you would endanger my head with the king.” Then Daniel asked the guard whom the palace master had appointed over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: “Please test your servants for ten days. Let us be given vegetables to eat and water to drink. You can then compare our appearance with the appearance of the young men who eat the royal rations, and deal with your servants according to what you observe.” So he agreed to this proposal and tested them for ten days. At the end of ten days it was observed that they appeared better and fatter than all the young men who had been eating the royal rations. So the guard continued to withdraw their royal rations and the wine they were to drink, and gave them vegetables. To these four young men God gave knowledge and skill in every aspect of literature and wisdom; Daniel also had insight into all visions and dreams. At the end of the time that the king had set for them to be brought in, the palace master brought them into the presence of Nebuchadnezzar, and the king spoke with them. And among them all, no one was found to compare with Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah; therefore they were stationed in the king's court. In every matter of wisdom and understanding concerning which the king inquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters in his whole kingdom. And Daniel continued there until the first year of King Cyrus.” (Daniel 1:8-21 NRSV)   We do not know precisely why Daniel chose this diet. Vegetables would not be any safer from ritual contamination than meat. I offer you this thought by Joyce Baldwin quoted in a commentary on Daniel:   “It would seem that Daniel rejected this symbol of dependence on the king because he wished to be free to fulfil his primary obligations to the God he served. The defilement he feared was not so much a ritual as a moral defilement, arising from the subtle flattery of gifts and favours which entailed hidden implications of loyal support, however dubious the King's future policies might prove to be."   Daniel's purity Is an act of faith Is God-focused Is effective in impressing pagans Is blessed by God   For Reflection We similarly make decisions which the world would find strange. We attend church services instead of having extra time to do whatever we want. We pray to an invisible God! We hold to a moral and ethical code which seems outdated to most of society. Perhaps you can relate to what Peter wrote:   “You have already spent enough time in doing what the Gentiles like to do, living in licentiousness, passions, drunkenness, revels, carousing, and lawless idolatry. They are surprised that you no longer join them in the same excesses of dissipation, and so they blaspheme.” (1 Peter 4:3-4 NRSV)   Are there any current situations in your life over which you are finding it hard to make a decision because of how it might look to other people? Will doing things gods way make you look strange? Why not pray that you can take inspiration from Daniel and his friends?   Conclusion I hope you find your heart, your life, your congregation and your world inspired by God doing a new thing. Until tomorrow, take care, and God bless.   Please add your comments on this week's topic. We learn best when we learn in community.   Do you have a question about teaching the Bible? Is it theological, technical, practical? Send me your questions or suggestions. Here's the email: malcolm@malcolmcox.org.   If you'd like a copy of my free eBook on spiritual disciplines, “How God grows His people”, sign up at my website: http://www.malcolmcox.org.   Please pass the link on, subscribe, leave a review.   "Carpe Diem" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

In this episode of The Tragedy Academy Podcast, host Jay Hicks sits down with Daniel Maigler, a dedicated mental health advocate and therapist. Daniel shares his personal journey into mental health and explores the complexities of depression, the human psyche, and the powerful connection between humans and emotional support animals.

Joël is joined by thoughtbot Software Developer and Dirt Jumper Daniel Nolan. Dirt jumping is BMX-style riding

The Bible tells us to hide God's Word in our hearts. As believers, we want it to become the substance of our souls! Stacy Vickroy is a Bible2School worship leader, and today she's talking about the many faces of worship. You'll hear how God orchestrated music throughout her life for His glory, how she shares this passion with our Bible2School kids and their families, & ways in which we can use worship as a tool to combat the enemy in our everyday lives! Worship can be our WARship, and one way we can fuel this ship is by hiding God's Word in our hearts!  Are you ready to get your worship on?  Let's go! STACY VICKROY is a stay at home mom of three school age boys and wife to her husband, Bart.  She volunteers as a worship leader at her local church and also in the Laurel Highlands Bible2School programs.  She has a passion for teaching children how to hide God's Word in their hearts (Psalm 119:11) through song, movement and sign language. Resources For You: Examples of Worship in Scripture: The harp calms Saul's frenzied mind Expressed without words in the woman at the well The woman who washed Jesus' feet  Daniel -  It's what you don't worship Paul & Silas -  singing in jail Jeshosophat - worship made his enemies scatter Psalm 119:9-11  Isaiah 41:10  Hebrews 13:8  Isaiah 40:31  Ecclesiastes 12:13 Seeds Family Worship Songs Seeds Family Worship - Hebrews 13:8 Doorpost Songs Psalm 119:9-11 - Hide the Word 1 John 1:7- Hide the Word NT books of the bible - Slugs N Bugs Father Abraham I am a “C” Toby Mac Phil Whickham Stacy's Youtube B2S Playlist   Next Steps: Check out our Blog Bring Bible2School to Your Community! Share this podcast with a friend Subscribe to You CAN Tell the Children

Celebrating a milestone in their podcasting journey...this is the 100th episode! In this episode, Daniel and Keitoh talk about their growth, evolution, and the lessons they've learned from hosting How Winners Win. They take a look back at past guests and reflect on what they all have in common when it comes to their in their psychology, challenges, and success. "For me, (this podcast) has helped me get out of a lot of situations where I didn't have the answers. With this podcast, we come on and get to ask questions from people way smarter in their field...Who you surround yourself with matters. And when you get to listen to this show and we get to interview these people. It definitely does affect you positively." --Keitoh "My favorite part about this the show is when a guest says something that is super, super, fire-- a lot of value. And then I go home, I tell my wife 'Hey, babe, we should do this because you know, so and so's on the podcast and they said this about this.' And then my wife looks at me and she's like, 'Dude, you're fucking idiot. I said the same thing to you last week." --Daniel It's only natural that these two can go back and forth, spitting fire, and dropping gem after gem as they talk about what they've learned from the past 100 episodes. This is the perfect episode you'll want to share with a friend as an introduction to the show. Thank you for supporting and listening to How Winners Win. --- Through Quest Education, Daniel Blue and Keitoh Spears have helped people all over the country accomplish their financial goals. Do you want to learn how to: Make money tax free? Access your 401k/IRA penalty and tax free? Get funding to start a business? Pay off your debt? Follow Daniel on Instagram:@danielblue__ Follow Keitoh on Instagram: @highkeii

What you'll learn in this episode: Why preparation is the key to a successful career in law How Daniel has won some of the largest verdicts in history, even in supposedly impossible cases How making room for creativity can lead to better case outcomes Why focusing on current clients can be more beneficial than focusing on getting new business How to maximize your networking and business development efforts About Daniel Callahan Daniel Callahan opened his own law office on St. Patrick's Day in 1984. From there, he distinguished himself as one of the top trial attorneys in California and has repeatedly been recognized by his peers for his incredible accomplishments. Mr. Callahan was the winner of the prestigious OCTLA Trial Lawyer of the Year Award three times, in 2000, 2004, and 2012. Since founding Callahan & Blaine, Mr. Callahan has won many jury trials and obtained scores of seven and eight-figure settlements on behalf of his clients. Callahan Consulting: Callahan Consulting | Law Firm Consulting by Daniel Callahan - Instagram: Callahan Consulting Instagram Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dancallahanconsulting Transcript: Daniel Callahan is a legendary California lawyer who has achieved record-setting verdicts for clients. What was the secret to his success? Preparation. By not putting off what he could do now, Daniel had the mental space to think about his cases creatively—and that led to astounding verdicts in seemingly impossible cases. He joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about his tips for building a network; why current clients are more valuable than new ones; and why client bills are an underused selling tool. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Welcome to the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Daniel Callahan. He is founder and head of one of California's top litigation firms and has been a winner of the prestigious Orange Country Trial Lawyer of the Year three times. We'll learn all about his career path and why he thinks his firm is successful. Daniel, welcome to the program. Daniel:  Thank you very much, Sharon. It's nice to be here. Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your career path. Daniel:  It's an unusual path, Sharon. When I left high school, I did not go to college directly. I went to work in construction because I didn't really apply myself much during school. I graduated fifth from the bottom in my class. So, I worked in construction. I was doing that. A buddy of mine got me a job, and I'm chopping trees down with my McCulloch chainsaw, and that turned me into a wood chopper. I'm thinking, “What am I doing here?” I saw my buddy. “I know why he's here, because he's standing next to his dad who got him the job. My mother and father told me I'd be a good lawyer. Maybe I want to try going to college after all.” Then, when I went to college, I thought, “O.K., now I'm with all those smart kids, so I have to work really hard.” I put them on a pedestal and worked really hard, and as a result, I had straight As through college. When I went to law school, I thought, “O.K., you were pretty good at college, but now you're really against all those smart guys.” Again, I put them on a pedestal, worked really hard and finished in the top 10 and editor of the law review. Then I went to law firms. I was recruited by several law firms. I went to Hawaii to practice initially with the oldest and largest firm in the state. I was there for two years. I learned a lot. I came back to California with another large law firm for another three years, and then I opened up my own shop. I was able to bring in more business than most people. I had enough to keep myself and two other associates busy, so I thought, “Maybe now is a good time to go out on my own.” I did that on St. Patrick's Day of 1984. Sharon: Wow! Let me go back for a minute. Why did your parents think you'd be a good lawyer? Daniel:  I think I was a bit argumentative. I could be kind of persuasive and argumentative at the same time. Sharon: Did you decide to go to Hawaii because that's where you wanted to be? Daniel:  No, not at all. I had never given a thought to Hawaii, but when they came to interview at the school, I accepted the interview and met with them. I got a call back. Two days later, they invited me to spend five days on the islands. They put me up at the Ilikai and gave me a car. In three days, you get to know the firm, and then you have two days to get used to Hawaii. It was so great! I took the job, but Hawaii wasn't really for me. I preferred being back in California, where I went to law school at UC Davis. I didn't go back to Davis, but I went to Newport Beach, California. Sharon: Was it more formal? Daniel:  It was a very large firm, and I would not say they were formal. They worked really hard, but they also played pretty hard. I got a good grounding from them. Sharon: It sounds like you have that, between everything you did. Tell us how that led to a couple of your biggest wins, because they're big. Daniel:  One of the things I learned from my mentor at Allen Matkins was you cannot be faulted for working too hard. Remember, I always put the opposition on a pedestal anyway. I want to be really prepared. They taught me how to be prepared, how not to put things off until tomorrow if you can do it today, because you don't know what's coming tomorrow. You may have an ex parte hearing; you may have something coming up. If you planned on doing this but you put it off, now you're crowded, and you can't do your best job. That's why I have been so successful. I almost over-prepare. When I go to trial, I prepare. First of all, someone else usually works up the depositions and the discovery and all that. They bring it to me and give me an idea which depos to read first. I read all the depos. I summarize the depos myself. I match them with all the exhibits that I read. Then I prepare the examinations of each witness, both our side and their side, linking them to the exhibits, and then I practice the exams. I work with the person who's in charge of my AV. When I want to do an exam, I want this coming up, and he's showing me how to put it up on the screen. When we go through these, after a while he knows everything I'm about to do, so you can almost think as I'm thinking. That's because of preparation. I also prepare my own opening statements. I go through them two or three times the day before or two days before it's scheduled. You don't want to do it too much because it gets kind of old. It still has to have some life to it, but you want to do it a few times to get the bugs out. If I have a group of people sitting in a conference room listening to me, they're instructed not to say a word during the opening, but after they can critique me. There is many a good idea I've gotten from those individuals. Some ideas I didn't think much of, and I did not incorporate them. Many ideas I did incorporate. When I walk into trial, I feel like the 800-pound gorilla because I'm really prepared. I have all the exams for the entire case done. The only thing I don't have done is a closing argument, and that's going to depend on the testimony. The attorneys who are listening to this should order a transcript of the trial and have a daily transcript. By the way, you should have it certified. If you don't have it certified, the judge may not allow you to use it. I believe in quoting the witnesses I cross-examine heavily. I believe in doing video depositions. You ask the same question three or four times. You get different responses. You pick out the response you like the best, and then you put a number of clips together and show that either during opening statement or right as you call that witness. Before you even ask him the question, you can play from his deposition. By that time, you've destroyed him in the eyes of the jury before he even gets to open his mouth. That is a helpful tip. I used that in one case called Beckman Coulter vs. Flextronics. That was a $2 million breach of contract case. We discovered a $300,000 fraud and we went to trial. Seven weeks into this trial, I amended the complaint to conform to proof that I had already elicited from the mouths of the defendants. I added two causes of action for economic duress, which is a subspecies of fraud. The jury came back and gave me $2 million on the first claim and $300,000 for fraud on the second, plus $1 million and a quarter of punitive. On the third cause, they gave me $180 million in punitive damages, and on the fourth $750 million in punitive damages, for a total of $934 million, which was and still remains the highest jury verdict in Orange County history. It was the highest in the United States up until about November of that year. How did that happen? Preparation, preparation, preparation. When you do that, when you are prepared, you can allow yourself to think, “What creative way can I go about doing this? How can I do something different?” By example, I had a smaller case called Radco v. Diamond Walnut. Radco was a producer of urethane foam, and they sent it to work sites in California in 55-gallon drums. They sold it to a subcontractor, but Radco wasn't paid. So, Radco calls me and says, “Dan, how do I get a mechanic's lien?” I said, “Well, in California, first you have to do a 20-day notice.” “A 20-day what?” “You have to give the owner notice ahead of time that you're providing materials to the job site, so he knows to get you paid. Where are these 55-gallon drums?” He said, “They're locked in a warehouse.” “Well, can you go get them, drive them around the block, release possession and then do a 20-day notice?” He has to do the notice within 20 days of releasing possession. “No, it's locked in a warehouse.” I thought through my conversation with him. He said he had sold to Midstate, a subcontractor who could not pay their bills as due. Well, that's the definition of insolvency. I remember from my days in law school studying the UCC that if you sold something to someone on credit while they're insolvent, you can reclaim those goods and get constructive possession. So, that's what we did. I got constructive possession back, even though the drums never left the warehouse. I then wrote a letter releasing that possession, served a 20-day notice and went for my mechanic's lien. The in-house counsel of Diamond Walnut said, “That is ridiculous.” There was no precedent for it, but I argued it to the judge in Stockton, and he agreed with me. As a result, Diamond Walnut had to pay twice for those materials. That is being creative. Sharon, if you don't mind, I think creativity is so important. You have to allow yourself enough time to be creative. Here's an example. I had a client who's an SBA lender. He lent money to this company in Orange County who had acquired all of this collateral, which the lender had a security interest in. The lender was not getting paid. He was afraid that if they did the normal due demand letter, filed a complaint, waited 30 days, all this collateral was going to wind up in Mexico. There are two ways to repossess collateral. There's a self-help repossession under UCC 9-503. That's what I did, but in order to make it look better, I put it on 14x11 paper, legal-size paper. I made it look like a form, although I filled it in with the correct statute, and then I had my signature notarized at the bottom, so now it really looks official. Then I went to the police department and said, “I need someone to come with me to make sure there's no breach of the peace.” He said, “I'll come with you to make sure you don't breach the peace.” This was back in the early 80s, when not everybody had a cell phone with a video camera. So, I hired a guy from Los Angeles to come film, and the three of us approached the back of the warehouse. There was an officer from the Irvine Police Department, myself and the videographer. The warehouse doors were all open, and I said, “Get that guy.” When I approached, I said, “My name is Dan Callahan and I represent the SBA. We're here to repossess a collateral of loans to the SBA. We're going to take the CEO down. If you want to be named in the lawsuit, you can go down too, but if you help me, if you identify the collateral right now, then we will let you go.” He went around identifying all the collateral that belonged to the SBA. One of the pieces of collateral was a forklift truck. We had a flatbed and a forklift, and we're loading all this stuff up on the flatbed. All of a sudden, our forklift ran out of gas. Fortunately, they had a forklift, so we picked up our forklift and everything else and left. We were out of there within about an hour. Whenever somebody came from the back room to look, we had the videographer shoot them, “I got you.” We went back to the office and had a beer with the client. I got a call from the lawyer representing the debtor, and he said, “Is it true all they had to do was say no?” I said, “Yeah, that's true.” He said, “Oh, my god. Congratulations on your sting.” The reason I tell you that, Sharon, is because that shows some creativity. On the other one, I grafted the UCC onto the mechanic's lien law. This one I went in on a self-help repossession, but I did a document. That is legal but somewhat deceiving. It looked like a court document almost. So, there are different things you can do creatively within the law that can get you results. Let me tell you one more story. There's a case I had where other lawyers had turned the case down. It's a personal injury lawsuit. There are these two women who were running in the bike lane, and they got hit by an uninsured drunk hit-and-run driver who abandoned his car. He was caught nine days later in a laundromat with beers in his pocket. He was sentenced to four years. The other lawyers who looked at this thought, “There's no money. Who are we going to sue? An uninsured hit-and-run driver?” I went to the site itself and looked where it happened, and I noticed the bike lane. There are regulations for this in California. Usually, the bike lane is about four-and-a-half feet wide. This lane is 11 feet wide. Also in California, it has to be a properly marked bike lane, and this was not. Ordinarily the government would have immunity, but only if they follow the engineer's advice. They had done it correctly many years before, but there had been a landslide covering the road. When they redid it and repaved it, they didn't do the bike lane properly. They didn't do it the way the engineer had told them many years before, so they did not have governmental immunity. So, I sued the City of Dana Point and demanded $50 million, which was the limit of their insurance. They offered me $30 million. I told everybody in my office, “We're not even talking about settlement. There is no settlement. You're not taking your foot off the gas.” For anybody who's listening to this, once people start talking about a settlement, there may be an inclination to take your foot off the gas. Don't do it. Just keep it there. On the Friday before the Monday trial, they said, “O.K., we're in. $50 million.” I got a call from an organization that tracks this, and they said, “Dan, that $50 million settlement is the highest personal injury settlement in the history of the United States.” Sharon: Wow! Daniel:  That's what I said, wow! They also said, “Oh, by the way, you also have the third highest.” I had one for $28 million. As it turns out, $28 million was third. $29 million had been the highest and became second. My $50 million took over. I don't know where that stands right now, but I'm sure it's pretty high up there. Sharon: You can tell just by looking at your website and all the badges and awards. Let me ask you this because you alluded to it. You said you do consulting. Daniel:  Yes. Sharon: Can you tell us a little about that? Daniel:  Yeah, certainly. I was a founder and managing partner of Callahan and Blaine, 28 attorneys in Santa Ana that do business litigation and personal injury. Now, I'm the CEO of Callahan Consulting. I consult with partners and associates from Callahan and Blaine, but also with other attorneys throughout the nation, giving trial practice and strategy advice. Also, I will be contacted by clients that are looking for a particular type of lawyer in a given community. Just last week, somebody needed a bankruptcy lawyer in Michigan. I researched it, and I found two really good lawyers. I presented them to the client. I arranged for a conference call between the client and each of these lawyers so the client could make up their own mind as to who they wanted to retain. I do this all throughout the United States. Usually, I get about one case a day that I'm trying to help somebody with. So, it's two things. I mentor attorneys, as I used to mentor the attorneys in my firm, and I also help clients find the attorney in the right specialty in their community that can help them. The way I'm compensated for this is normal. I get a referral fee when I set up a client with an attorney. I bill by the hour, and the hourly rate goes down. If you use more than five hours, then the hourly rate goes down. That's just getting at the strategy, how to work creatively to get the best result. One of the things that's helped me the most is looking outside the box. That's because I give myself enough time to be able to have that luxury, and that's because I don't put off until tomorrow what I can do today. It's the lessons you learn in your first few years. You get burned once and then you'll know. I was in trial one time, and I asked an associated to do a request for experts or expert designation. I came back from trial and asked, “Did you do it?” He says, “No, I didn't have time.” I go into the court to try to get relief the next day and he said, “No, it's too late.” So, I went to trial. I still won. I had to take their expert and turn him into my expert. So, you don't put things off. You get things done. Sharon: Would you say that's something you practice in the rest of your life as well as in the law? Daniel:  Yes, I would. I try to teach my children. I have my daughter, Caitlin, and my son, Michael, neither of whom are lawyers, but it's been drilled into them about preparation and its success and results. I think I practice that in many areas of my life. Sharon: Do you think you need to have these big wins to be successful? Can you be a successful personal injury firm without huge or noticeable wins? Daniel:  Oh yes, you can be successful without huge wins. Many attorneys spend a lot of time trying to bring in new clients, as well they should, but what you should also do is pay particular attention to the clients you have. Make sure you communicate often and clearly with your clients. Make sure they're comfortable with you at all times so they know what's coming and what to expect. When that happens, they're out there in the community talking about you, and then you get referrals through them. You build your base by working with existing clients who then will be more than happy to refer your business. If they perceive you as someone who cares about them, then they care about you. That's how I built my business. It was mostly from referrals from clients. Then it became referrals from other lawyers I knew, and then, because of the big victories, it became referrals from lawyers I never met but knew if they came to me, they were going to get a referral fee. It's better to get a referral fee on a $10 million victory than a referral fee on a $1 victory. So, people come to me for that reason, and I try my very best to deliver. Sharon: On your website you have both videos and a blog. Is it necessary to have both? Daniel:  10 years ago, I would have said no, but now, yes. Videos are very important. People now want to see a video. When they go to your website, they want to see a video, not just a bunch of doubletalk. They want to see what the person is like and how he reacts on film. Do they like him? Do they not? Certainly, you're going to pitch your wins and tell them what you can do for them. For blogs, it's the same thing. Blogs are very helpful. People are interested in listening or watching or reading to see if they can learn something. To get better at the very beginning, I would go to a lot of CEB courses because I figured I'm going to go there; I'm going to learn. I will always pick up something, and in the meantime, I'll meet a couple of people. We'll exchange business cards and I'll expand my network. You're in the back of the room, you get a cup of coffee, your doughnut, whatever they happen to have, and you meet people. You expand your network. Nowadays with the internet, people are expanding their networks all the time. But I find if it's a more personal touch, not just somebody I met on LinkedIn, it goes further. So, yes, I believe videos are important, blogs are important, personal touch is important. Get out there and meet people. Get out there and tell people what you do. If it's just a client, nobody's going to know about you. You've got to go ahead and show a little bit of what you have to offer. It's always a good idea to tell stories. When you tell a story to a prospective client about a case you won, that prospective client is putting himself or herself in the shoes of your client, thinking, “Damn, that's good. I wish that was me. I wish my attorney would do that for me.” I would go to parties and just talk to people at parties. That's how I would meet a lot of people. I'd tell a few stories and get them encouraged. Your light is always on. When you want to bring in business, your light should be on 24/7. If you go out somewhere, keep in mind you are a lawyer. If you encounter somebody, you should be able to tell them about it and tell them what you can do for them. You don't want to be pushy, of course, but when the opportunity comes, you are a salesman. Some lawyers I used to work with felt embarrassed about going out and trying to get business. They want to be a pure lawyer where they just research and write and argue to the court, but they don't go out to try to get business. Well, that person's not going to advance. That person is not going to advance in a partnership, because partners tend to look at what this person brings to the table, how much business he has, what kind of book he or she has. You have to always be developing that book, not just so you rise in the partnership, but also for your own well-being. If you have a large book of business with reliable clients, then you have a very good platform for further development. Sharon: Is that something a non-lawyer or a marketing director, let's say, should be saying to a lawyer? Have your light on all the time? Daniel:  Yes, definitely. 24/7, have your light on. Be awake. Be alert. You picked a profession. I'm very fortunate because I'm good at bringing in business, but I'm also good at trying cases. In fact, I'm really good at managing a law firm with the numbers and everything, what to spend money on, what not to spend money on and how to spend the money. I do all three, which is a gift. I didn't know I had that gift. When I used to chop trees down, I was a McCulloch chainsaw guy. It's something you learn and develop. If you work at it, you'll get it. Sharon: Do you think it's possible to learn the things you're talking about? How to develop business, how to manage a law firm, that sort of thing?  Daniel:  Obviously, when you manage a law firm, if you start out as a solo, it's not as difficult as stepping in and managing a 28-attorney law firm. There are classes you can take. You can also hire one or two competent people for your office. One is in charge of your accounting; one is in charge of secretarial. Then just manage it. Just make sure you get the bills out on time. Now, here's something. Here's basic 101. If you're working and billing by the hour, when do you write your time down on your timesheet? When you do the work. It's amazing how some people can leave at the end of the day and not have their timesheet filled out. They figure they're going to do it later. I've had attorneys working for me, and I just can't believe it. “What are you doing? Two weeks and you have not billed any time.” “No, but I have all my notes. I'm going to be doing my time.” That's ridiculous. You need to do it on a daily basis because when you do it on a daily basis, you can actually capture all the time. If you look back a week later, you really can't capture it, and you can't be specific enough to sell your information on the bill. When you do a bill, you should write the bill in such a way that the person reading it thinks, “Wow, that's a lot of work.” Don't give them shorthand, “A little research.” You should say what you've done so they know, “Man, that's a lot. O.K., I can see why they took an hour and a half,” or however long. Your bills need to be a persuasive piece of work, and when they're sent out, they have to be sent out timely. When you do something good for a client, they appreciate it, but the level of appreciation goes down over time. Let's say you do something for him or her on November 1. You get a bill out on December 10, and they go to pay it maybe in January. By January, their appreciation of what you did goes down. “Oh, really? I guess I could have done that myself.” Clients often appreciate you more at the beginning when you do the work, but if you delay too long—and some people delay a month or two months before sending out their bill. When they do send out their bill, it's not written like it's going to make you perspire to read it. It has to be written in a sales manner. You want the guy to read it, appreciate the work and pay the bill. Get it to him quickly and get it to him clearly. Sharon: It's something that persuades them. Do you think the aspect of business development—because that's what we're so involved in—can be taught? Daniel:  Yes, it can be taught. There are DVDs on it. There are many people that will try to teach you how to develop business. There are a lot of them out there. I've spoken to several over the years, and some of them are worth their salt. Sometimes I get a good tip or an idea. People will say you should have a 10-second commercial. When somebody says, “What do you do?” in an elevator, you can summarize what you do within the time it takes you to go from the 10th floor to the ground floor. That's called an elevator commercial. Those are helpful, but if people still have business cards now, you also need to exchange business cards or email or text or something, and then follow up on that meeting right away. Whoever you just met, wherever it was, just say, “It was a pleasure meeting you. I enjoyed learning about your son, your daughter, your business,” or whatever it had been, and then note that and follow up. Like I tell my son, you should log everybody you've met and put them into a calendar so you follow up in a week. Maybe it's, “Hey, by the way, I was thinking about you. I saw this may be relevant to your situation. Here's an email.” Maybe it's a phone call. It's just doing that again and again, and now you're expanding your network intelligently. You're not just getting somebody's business card and hoping he calls you. You're reaching out and talking to them about something that is of interest to them. When you talk to them, you don't want to just talk about yourself. You want to find out about their business, their family and what they do for entertainment or travel, whatever you can know. Then, as soon as you get back to your office or home, log all that in and calendar it to get back to this individual. If you do that, you can commit to making three—I'd say five, but even four—phone calls a day to people you met. Or if not a phone call, an email. It doesn't take that much time, but your network will grow huge. I don't know how many working days there are in a year, but if you made four phone calls or emails every working day, by the end of that year, you would have a network that's huge, which can pay off for you. When you want to bring in business, you've just got to reach out and touch somebody. Sharon: I would agree with you, but do you think it's true for the people who would rather research? They like the law, but they like it from a more academic perspective, let's say. Daniel:  Yes, I think they have to learn to adapt. I like the law. I like research and writing and arguing; however, I also like to have a comfortable lifestyle where I have a book of business that I can always rely on. That way, I'm more likely to make partner because I have a book of business. Also, I'm more likely to get more and more business. The people that say, “I love the beauty of the law,” that's good. We all do, but if that's all you've got, when hard times come, you may not be with the firm much longer. You can find dime-a-dozen lawyers that love the law, who think they're really good at it, that don't go out and do anything to generate business. That's not your best way to be a successful attorney.  Sharon: What is your one piece of advice to be a successful attorney? You may have said it already, but what advice would you give a new lawyer? Daniel:  Don't underestimate your opposition. In fact, you may want to put them on a pedestal and fight the guy on the pedestal. If you put the guy on a pedestal, you're preparing for Goliath. If Goliath doesn't show up, but you're ready for Goliath, you're going to have success. The keystone is prepare and don't delay. Don't put it off until tomorrow. Get it done, and get it done now. If you have an idea for something you think may work, write it down. When you have time to look at it more, maybe you can incorporate that into your action as a plaintiff or a defendant. By the way, I represent plaintiffs and defendants. I've only told you about the plaintiff wins. I have numerous defense wins, and I practice the same methodology. Sharon: Hopefully we can hear about those at another time. I want to thank you for being here today. Thank you so much. Daniel:  Sharon, I appreciate it. I'm happy to be here. Call me again anytime.

For episode 100 I decided to play one track from each podcast from the last 99! Enjoy this mix of genres and years!Tracklisting Jack Eye Jones - Fire In Your Soul (feat. Toni Etherson)Diplo,Sonny Fodera - Turn Back TimeDansson - Shake That (Mark Knight Remix)Chocolate Puma & Gregor Salto - Gimme Sum (Original Mix)Dzeko & Torres vs Crossways, Deniz Koyu & Florence - You've Got The Togi Bong (Pete Foster Mash Up)Discotronic - Shooting Star (Golden Arrow Remix)Finn - Sometimes The Going Gets A Little Tough (Mella Dee Going Got A Bit Tougher Mix)KC Lights - Girl (Extended Mix)Gorgon City, Drama - You've Done Enough (Extended Mix)Armin van Buuren & Tom Staar feat. Josha Daniel - Let Go (Extended Mix)Ten Walls - Walking With Elephants (Original Mix)Jack & Daniel - _ It! (Extended Version)Nadia Ali - When It Rains (Tommy Trash Remix) (Nesh's Extemded Edit)Justin Bieber - Children (Matt Nevin Extended Mix)Sultan & Ned Shepard feat. Quilla - Walls (Original Mix)Miriam Bryant - Push Play (Filip Jenven & Mike Perry Remix)Tiesto & Sneaky Sound System - I Will Be HereSidney Samson vs. Tara McDonald - Dynamite (Nicky Romero Remix)Example - Kickstarts (Remady Remix)Lady Bee feat. Grace Regine - Sweet Like Chocolate (Original Mix)Robert Miles - Children (JOEYSUKI Bootleg)DEvolution - Good Love (Alesso Remix)Avicii - Fade Into Darkness (Mario Cross Rework)Niall Horan - This Town (Paul Gannon Bootleg)Gabry Ponte, Jerome - Lonely (Extended Mix)Ariana Grande - Problem (Deficio Remix)Axwell vs Orkestrated - Centre of Where All My Ladies At (Steve Frank Mashup)TJR vs Alice Deejay - Ode To Be Better Off Alone (Dave Bicko Mash Up)Thomas Newton Howard Ft. Jennifer Lawrence - The Hanging Tree (Nick Kennedy Bootleg)Wallpaper. - Good 4 It (Laidback Luke Goes Melbourne Remix)Deorro & Joel Fletcher - Queef (Original Mix)Peking Duk vs Taito - High Bounce (Mobin Master edit)Darkwave - Sunrise (State4 Remix)Ferry Corsten - Not Coming Down (Feat. Betsie Larkin)Ca$ino - Only You (Paul Gotel's Resurrection Soundscape)Fragma - Toca Me (Clubmix)Astroline - Close My Eyes (Peter Luts Club Remix)M-Shape - Tell Me (Ole van Dansk Remix)Unit 5 - I Love You (Djs At Work Remix)Sabotage - Engine Trouble (Lock 'N' Load Remix)Hampenberg - Don't Lie To Me (DJ Richard & Johnny Bass Remix)Diamond - Reason (Kareema Remix)Floorfilla - Le Délire (Extended) Don Esteban - X-Static (Extended Mix)

Hallo Freunde fürs Extraleben! Nachdem wir euch letzte Woche eine Spezialepisode in Form einer Doppelfolge um die Ohren gehauen haben, kehren wir mit dieser Episode zu stinknormaler Form zurück, d.h. wir sprechen über Spiele, die wir spielen, sowie Nachrichten und Gerüchte aus der Welt der Videospiele in traditioneller Extrafreunde-Form! Allerdings haben einige der Nachrichten durchaus noch einen Bezug zu dem beim Summer Game Fest gesehenen. So reden wir unter anderem über das letzte Puzzlestück in Sachen Streams: Capcom hatte letzte Woche noch 30 Minuten an eigenen Spielen in einem Stream geliefert, die wir nicht unkommentiert lassen wollen. Des Weiteren in den News: der kommende, beste Film des nächsten Jahres, das Gecshäftsmodell von Diablo 4 und mehr zu Embracer und den Saudis. Auch das ein oder andere heiße Gerücht wird heute wieder bequatscht, z.B. der von vielen erwartete Playstation-Pro-Controller. Zudem besprechen wir - man glaubt es kaum - auch mal wieder ein neues Spiel, das von Daniel gespielt wurde. Er hat sich die Stollenschuhe angezogen und bolzt über die Plätze von Mario Strikers. Zudem: Manuels Fazit zu Ghostwire: Tokyo. Viel Spaß! Die Folge im Überblick: Was gibt es neues? 02:58 Der Final Fantasy VII Jubiläums-Stream 08:58 Die Ankündigung einer Ankündigung zu Assassins Creed 11:18 Die kommende Nintendo Direct und das diesjährige Nintendo-Lineup 14:26 Manuel und der Sommerschlaf aka der extended Microsoft Stream Was wird denn hier gespielt? 20:22 Mario Strikers…oder doch Schultage vor den Ferien 23:55 jetzt aber wirklich: Mario Strikers, Mario Golf und die Frage: Wieviel Spiel muss Nintendo uns eigentlich bieten? 40:43 Der Rest bei Daniel: It takes two, Horizon und Destiny 45:10 Manuels Fazit zu Ghostwire:Tokyo Neuigkeiten aus der Spielebranche 1:03:47 Der Capcom-Stream in der Analyse 1:27:00 Kein Resident Evil Update für Playstation Plus-Spieler 1:30:26 Der beste Film des kommenden Jahres! 1:35:23 Der Microsoft-Stream und die Embargos 1:44:15 Diablo 4 und sein Geschäftsmodell 1:49:37 Embracers Stellungsnahme zum Saudi-Deal und das Thema Whitewashing Düfte aus der Gerüchteküche 2:03:40 Ist das nächste Fire Emblem bereits fertig? 2:07:10 Kommt endlich ein Playstation-Pro-Controller? 2:12:50 Kommt GOW Ragnarok diesen November? https://twitter.com/Extrafreunde https://www.facebook.com/Extrafreunde https://www.instagram.com/extrafreunde ffelpodcast@gmail.com

Daniel: Putin's actions in Ukraine demonstrate the decline of American global hegemony ... Did the Soviet Union have the same expansionist ambitions as the US? ... How the war in Ukraine could increase nuclear proliferation ... Daniel: It's absurd that people got so upset about Whoopi Goldberg's Holocaust comment ... Does the US have “mass politics” anymore? If not, is that a bad thing? ... When does it pay to privatize? ... What's so bad about utopianism? ... Is true meritocracy possible within a highly unequal society? ... The uses (and possible abuses) of game theory ...

Daniel: Putin's actions in Ukraine demonstrate the decline of American global hegemony … Did the Soviet Union have the same expansionist ambitions as the US? … How the war in Ukraine could increase nuclear proliferation … Daniel: It's absurd that people got so upset about Whoopi Goldberg's Holocaust comment … Does the US have “mass […]

Daniel: Putin's actions in Ukraine demonstrate the decline of American global hegemony ... Did the Soviet Union have the same expansionist ambitions as the US? ... How the war in Ukraine could increase nuclear proliferation ... Daniel: It's absurd that people got so upset about Whoopi Goldberg's Holocaust comment ... Does the US have “mass politics” anymore? If not, is that a bad thing? ... When does it pay to privatize? ... What's so bad about utopianism? ... Is true meritocracy possible within a highly unequal society? ... The uses (and possible abuses) of game theory ...

With the war in Ukraine escalating, I thought it would be a good idea to bring on a guest with some expertise in international relations. So I called on Daniel Bessner, an intellectual historian, associate professor at University of Washington’s Henry M. Jackson School of International Studies, and a co-host of the American Prestige podcast. Daniel is a man of the left, so we spend a lot of time here arguing, and we have a great time doing it.Note: We recorded on February 22, 2022. Between then and now, the situation in Ukraine has changed quite a bit. In order to avoid confusion, we have edited out a portion of the conversation that is no longer up-to-date.Daniel and I begin by discussing what Putin’s invasion of Ukraine might tell us about the US’s standing in the world. Daniel argues that Putin’s willingness to ignore the US’s warnings reflects the decline of America’s global hegemony. He compares the present situation to America’s geopolitical position in the wake of World War II, arguing that the US imputed unrealistic hegemonic ambitions to the Soviet Union in order to justify the Cold War. He worries that the lesson many nations will draw from Ukraine is that the best way to forestall aggression from a stronger state is to acquire nuclear weapons. Unfortunately, this strategy makes a lot of sense to me. We then take a hard turn away from war to talk about Whoopi Goldberg. Daniel and I agree that the outrage over her remarks about the Holocaust is completely overblown. But he sees in this outrage the sign of a frustrated populace with no other way to express its political will. I’m skeptical of the idea we should want a return to mass politics, though. We shouldn’t throw the fate of our institutions to the political winds. We then debate the role of private industry in administering services to the public. We agree that our public schools are in bad shape, but Daniel thinks that market logic is at the root of the problem, whereas I think the market can help offer solutions. The question of meritocracy emerges, and Daniel argues that real meritocracy is impossible within a highly unequal society. No doubt that’s a problem, but I think abandoning meritocratic principles would be a huge mistake. And finally, we get into a debate over the uses (and possible abuses) of game theory.I truly enjoyed this good-natured sparring match with Daniel, and I hope you do, too!This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.0:00 Daniel: Putin’s actions in Ukraine demonstrate the decline of American global hegemony 7:02 Did the Soviet Union have the same expansionist ambitions as the US? 16:01 How the war in Ukraine could increase nuclear proliferation 23:46 Daniel: It’s absurd that people got so upset about Whoopi Goldberg’s Holocaust comment 27:27 Does the US have “mass politics” anymore? If not, is that a bad thing? 34:35 When does it pay to privatize? 38:55 What’s so bad about utopianism? 44:18 Is true meritocracy possible within a highly unequal society? 58:04 The uses (and possible abuses) of game theoryLinks and ReadingsGlenn’s Intellectual Origins, a series of interviews with DanielDaniel’s podcast, American PrestigeDaniel’s most recent appearance on Chapo Trap HouseStephen Wertheim’s book, Tomorrow, the World: The Birth of U.S. World SupremacyPaul Chamberlin’s book, The Cold War’s Killing Fields: Rethinking the Long PeaceDerek Masters and Katharine Way’s book, One World or None: A Report to the Public on the Full Meaning of the Atomic BombDaniel’s essay, “The End of Mass Politics”Walter Lippmann’s book, Public OpinionWalter Lippmann’s book, The Phantom PublicGlenn’s book, The Anatomy of Racial InequalityDaniel Markovitz’s book, The Meritocracy Trap: How America's Foundational Myth Feeds Inequality, Dismantles the Middle Class, and Devours the EliteKenneth Arrow’s book, Social Choice and Individual ValuesPaul Erickson’s, The World the Game Theorists MadeS.M. Amadae’s book, Rationalizing Capitalist Democracy: The Cold War Origins of Rational Choice LiberalismRobert Fogel and Stanley Engerman’s book, Time on the Cross: The Economics of American Slavery This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

About Daniel KimDaniel Kim (He/Him) is a Senior Developer Relations Engineer at New Relic and the founder of Bit Project, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit dedicated to making tech accessible to underserved communities. He wants to inspire generations of students in tech to be the best they can be through inclusive, accessible developer education. He is passionate about diversity & inclusion in tech, good food, and dad jokes.Twitter: @learnwdanielVolunteer with Bit Project: bitproject.org/volunteerLearn Serverless with Bit Project: bitproject.org/course/serverlessWatch this video on YouTube: https://youtu.be/oDdrbDXQG6wThis episode sponsored by, CBT Nuggets.Transcript:Jeremy: Hi, everyone. I'm Jeremy Daly and this is Serverless Chats. Today I'm chatting with Daniel Kim. Hey, Daniel. Thanks for joining me.Daniel: Hi, Jeremy. How's it going?Jeremy: It's going real ...Daniel: I'm glad to be here.Jeremy: Well, I'm glad that you're here. So, you are a Senior Developer Relations Engineer at New Relic, but you're also the founder of Bit Project. So, I would love it if you could tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and your background and what Bit Project is all about.Daniel: That sounds great, Jeremy. My name is Daniel. I'm a Senior Developer Relations Engineer at New Relic, which means I get to help the community and go find developers and help them become better developers. And I got into developer relations because I founded a school club and now it's a nonprofit, but it started as a school club, called Bit Project, where me and my friends gathered together to teach each other awesome web technologies. And yeah, that's how I got my start. And I am still running Bit Project as a nonprofit to help students around the world build and ship projects using awesome technologies and help them learn and become better developers.Jeremy: Right. And one of those awesome technologies is serverless. And that's what I want to talk to you about today because this is a really great program that you're running here that helps make Serverless more accessible to more people, which is what I'm all about, right? So, I absolutely love this. So, let's go back and talk a little bit about Bit Project and just get into how it got started. You mentioned it was a project you were doing with some college friends, but how did it go from that to what it is now?Daniel: Yeah. So, I started this, I think, late freshman year when I was still in school at UC Davis. I was not a computer science major, actually. I was an electrical engineering major, but as I got into technology and seeing all the possibilities of things you can build with cool tech, I was like, "I really need to get into web development because this is so awesome. I can make changes on the fly. I can see awesome things. I can build awesome things with my hands." Well, with my computer. So, yeah, I got a couple of friends together because I'm a very social person so I like to build and learn things together with my friends. So, I got a couple of them together. We rented a lecture hall and then we just taught each other everything we knew to each other. For example, I was super into Gatsby and React, so I was teaching my friends React. Other friends were super into backend development, so they were teaching me things like how to design APIs and how to connect a frontend to a backend, like really awesome things to each other.And it started like that until I decided to scale the program so I could help more and more of my fellow students. So, instead of doing four-person meetups, I would organize a workshop. And those workshops turned into sponsored workshops with funding, which meant a lot of free food, which meant more people, and it just ballooned into this awesome student organization where we always had the best food. We had free Boba, free pizza, and we would share with each other all these awesome technologies and tools that we learned how to work with using in our projects. So, that's how it started.Jeremy: Right. And then, so once you got this thing rolling, obviously you're seeing some success with it, then you get into developer relations?Daniel: Yeah, definitely. So, that's when I understood what I wanted to do with them for the rest of my life. I didn't want to be that production engineer on-call all the time. I wanted to be that engineer that helped other engineers become more successful and find the joy in programming. I love seeing when developers find that "aha moment" when they're learning something new and help them become better developers. And I found that out when I was teaching my friends how to program because I got more joy out of seeing other people succeed than me succeeding myself. So, I was like, "Developer relations is the path for me." So, that's why I directly entered developer relations right out of college, because I was like, "This is what I'm meant to do." Because one of my favorite things to do is figure out how to break down really complex ideas and concepts into more fun, easy-to-understand chunks so everyone can succeed and have a good time. That's my thing.Jeremy: No, I love that. I love that because I feel like, especially people who are maybe not traditional tech people or don't have a traditional tech background, sometimes it just takes a little bit of twisting of the presentation for them to really understand that. And I love that idea of just reaching out and trying to help more people because I'm on the total same page with you here. So, now you go and so you get into developer relations and you've got this Bit Project thing. And so is this something that you wanted to keep as a side project? What was the next evolution of that?Daniel: Yeah, definitely. So, I think Bit Project is an extension to the advocacy work I do at New Relic. Because at New Relic, my job is not to push New Relic the product. We have amazing product marketing managers and other folks who do that. My job is to make it easy for people to level up the community, like the people in the community to level up as developers and help the community. And one way I do that is through Bit Project. So, a lot of the work I do at New Relic mirrors or is parallel to the work I'm doing at Bit Project, where I help make complex ideas more accessible to developers. So, in a way, it's not more of a side project. It's like a parallel project of what I'm doing at New Relic, what I'm doing at Bit Project.Jeremy: Right. And so in terms of the things that you're teaching at Bit Project too because that's the other thing too. I think leveling up developers is one of those things where, I mean, if somebody wants to go learn HTML or CSS or one of those things, there's probably plenty of resources for them to go and do that. There's probably nine million YouTube tutorials out there, right?Daniel: Definitely.Jeremy: But for concepts like Serverless, right? And I mean even Serverless with Azure and AWS and some of these other things, these are newer things. I've actually interviewed quite a few candidates for a recent position that I'm trying to fill and not a lot of them are learning this stuff in college.Daniel: Definitely. Something that we really wanted to instill to our students was that this is not your average bootcamp or course. We're not promising any six-figure salary after our bootcamps. That's not what we're promising. What we're promising is the opportunity to learn a concept that is foreign to many developers, even seasoned developers, because it's a relatively new technology, and we teach you the tools we give you and teach you the ways to become successful. So, we won't teach you everything you need to know, but we will teach you how to find the things you need to know to become successful developers. So, we help establish a good foundation for developers to learn new things and then build things on their own.Jeremy: Right. And this is ...Daniel: That's the focus of our program.Jeremy: Yeah. And this is completely free, right?Daniel: It's completely free. We're run thanks to the generosity of our corporate sponsors. So, shout out to them. Yeah. So, it's completely free for all students. So, please go and apply if you're interested and you are a student.Jeremy: So, one of the major things that you focus on, and I know that you have different courses or different workshops that you're going through. And I know some of the other ones are a little bit earlier like the DevOps one. But you have a pretty robust serverless. I mean, that's the main thing, right? Teaching people to build serverless applications on Microsoft Azure. So, I'm curious, especially having somebody jump in from maybe a non-traditional tech background or no tech background at all, and also students of all ages, right? We're not just talking about high school or college kids here, that jumping into something like serverless, what makes serverless such a good, I guess, jumping in point for the types of candidates that you're looking for?Daniel: Yeah. This is actually a great question because I have this conversation a lot with my colleagues at New Relic because when seasoned engineers hear about serverless, they jump straight into the, "How is this scalable for my enterprise use case? How is this going to integrate with my 70,000 other microservices?" They get into those questions immediately. But if you really boil down what serverless is, it's basically running code without thinking about infrastructure. That's the crux of what serverless is. And if you think about it from that perspective and not worry about all the other technical hurdles into implementing it in scale, it becomes a lot easier to digest for students. And it becomes a really friendly medium to get started with coding a project because you just have to code a small JavaScript or Python function that you just deploy to the cloud.It just magically works. We try not to overwhelm students with all the infrastructure talk and more focus on the code that they're writing. And I was really inspired because one of my mentors for my career is Chloe Condon from Microsoft, and I remember her writing a lot of blogs around getting started with serverless. She built this fake boyfriend app with a Twilio and serverless. And I was like, "Hey, this is not that unapproachable for students to get started with serverless functions," because it was only maybe 40, 50 lines of code. It integrated multiple APIs. So, I was like, "This is the perfect medium," because it's relatively simple to understand the idea of just writing code and deploying it to a magical kingdom where the magical kingdom controls everything, you know?Jeremy: Right.Daniel: So, that's my inspiration for using serverless as a medium to teach people how the modern full-stack app works, if that makes sense.Jeremy: Yeah. No, I totally agree, and I use this quite a bit where I tell people when I was a kid when I first started programming in the late 1990s, everything was CGI bins, right? So, we were just uploading code using FTP, but it was seriously magical. Now, again, it wouldn't scale, right. But it was magical in terms of how that happened. But even if it didn't scale, the point where you can get to that, what do we call it? The "aha moment," right? Where you're like, "Oh, this is how that works," or, "Oh, I get it now." I think you just get there faster with serverless.Daniel: Exactly. I think that's one of the reasons I love serverless is that we have students spin up a serverless function day one of the camp. We don't wait until day three or day four to teach them how to build with serverless. We're like, "Hey, this is the environment that you're going to work in," and then we have them write their own serverless functions based on a boilerplate code that we have written already. So, we try to make the barrier to entry as low as possible, so students don't get intimidated by the word "serverless."Jeremy: Right. Right. Yeah. And I think also it's probably a good place to get people started thinking about just what the cloud is and how the cloud works in general.Daniel: Yeah. Definitely. Some of our students have never even heard of what an API is. So, we really take students from zero to understanding how different services work on the internet and how we can take advantage of services and other code that other people have written to write our own applications. Because a lot of students, especially junior developers, don't realize how little you have to code to actually get an app working. Because most likely there's someone in the world who's coded something that you're looking for to implement already. So, it's more like a jigsaw puzzle than trying to build something yourself.Jeremy: Right. It's that whole Lego concept, just sticking those building blocks together. So, you mentioned, though, some of your students they've never even heard of an API or they don't know what an API is. So, I'm just thinking from the perspective of an absolute beginner, how do you scope a project for an absolute beginner to get them to somewhere where they actually have something that gets them to that "aha moment," makes them feel like, "Hey, I've actually done something interesting here," but not overwhelm them with things like open API spec 3.0? You know what I mean? All this kind of stuff.Daniel: Yeah. I think one of the most important things when you're designing a curriculum is understanding the pain points of the student. So, this curriculum was designed by a bunch of students. I'm not the only one that wrote this curriculum. This curriculum had a lot of contributors from all over the world who are high school and college students. We knew that we didn't want to go too in-depth from the beginning because we have a lot of students from non-traditional backgrounds that don't have a lot of previous knowledge. So, what we try to do is set up guide rails and have boilerplates and things like that to ensure that they're successful. Because the worst thing you can do when you're working with a junior developer is just overwhelm them with information and have really, really hard assignments that lead to frustration.So, we try to make that path really, really easy. But instead, what we try to do is have stretch goals or have extra-curricular assignments where they can apply what they have learned. So, if they're a little bit more advanced and they're getting the concepts and they're understanding at a deeper level how things work, they're able to practice and hone those skills. So, what we do is we try to work with our mentors, our fabulous mentors who are engineers in the industry, to help students code those stretch goals and help them understand at a deeper level if they have the capacity to do so. So, we try to customize the experience for every student based on their previous experience.Jeremy: Right. And I think another important thing is setting expectations with the students as well. I mean, you mentioned earlier that this isn't a bootcamp that you're guaranteeing $100,000 salaries when you walk out. I think that that is something, to me, where I think that level of honesty and truth is really important because I think there are a lot of these eight to 12-week boot camps that over-promise. And I don't know. I mean, I've been doing this for 24 years, and I don't feel like I'm an expert on anything and I've been doing it for a very long time. So, eight weeks doesn't get you to be an expert in anything, but if you can become productive, that's pretty exciting.Daniel: Yeah. Our goal is not to get you a six-figure job. Because that would be nice, but I feel like that's straight-up lying. Because I don't know all the students before they start personally, and I can't promise them a six-figure job. That's just ridiculous to me. But what I can promise is that you will ship an app. That's what I can promise. And I feel like when you're shipping an app and you're writing code to build an actual app that will work, you learn so much. You learn how to plan for a software project, how to ask questions, how to look for things on Google. So, that's the things we promise is the experiences, not necessarily the shiny six-figure salary. Even though I wish I could promise that. That would be amazing.Jeremy: Right. Yeah. And I think probably the greatest skill you can teach anyone as a developer is how to Google and how to use stack overflow.Daniel: Definitely.Jeremy: All right. So, you mentioned something about customizing, trying to make sure that the curriculum is adapted for the particular student. So, tell me a little bit more about that because that sounds really interesting.Daniel: Yeah. So, one of the reasons that I find our content and curriculum really special is that it's open-ended. It's not like they're programming exactly what every other student programs. So, for the first four weeks, we teach how serverless functions work, how to set up your development environment, everything through pair programming. So students, instead of having lectures, we have senior engineers actually pair program with junior developers, younger students, or students with less experience, so they can ask questions in the chat to learn as they are doing it with a mentor. And during the last four weeks, we actually have the students apply the things they've learned in the first four weeks through pair programming into their own applications. So, we teach them, "Hey, by week one, you should have this part of your project done. Week two, you should have this part of your project done." But we don't really specify exactly what their project should be. So, at the end of the camp, every single student has a different project they have built based on the interests they have, which has been really awesome to see.Jeremy: Well, that's also great, too. It's one of those things where, when your English teacher forces you to read Romeo and Juliet and you're not interested in Shakespeare, it's really hard to excel in that sometimes. So, letting people pick and choose where they go, I think is, again, is just a really good motivator and an excellent way. And again, just not over-promising. Just teaching people some of the basics, and then you have something to work on, something to iterate on, something to go a little bit deeper on and start understanding. If you just know that there are headers when you call an API, then you can maybe start doing some research as to what the other headers are and what I can do with those. And I think that level of curiosity would be really great for somebody and again, would excite them and get them going down that path.Daniel: Definitely. And I think the best way that students learn is actually trying to implement the things they have in their head. Because some of these projects that students have built for their capstone projects have been very, very complicated using serverless functions. One of the students actually built a Dropbox clone using serverless functions, and it was actually amazing. I couldn't do that, honestly, but she built it in three weeks, I think. So, I think it's the creativity that really, really I find impressive and amazing every cohort we have, is the variance in projects that we have for every single student.Jeremy: Right. Yeah. So, what are some of those projects? Because I think that'd be really interesting. Just give some examples of the sort of things you can build, right? Because the "Hello, World" tutorials are out there. People can go and probably cobble something together, but it sounds to me like the students that you have are building something that is actually, maybe not-production ready, but it is something that solves a real problem and it's a real solution to that. So, what are some of those different projects?Daniel: Definitely. One of our students, Bo, built an IoT heart rate monitor that connected to a serverless function. So, every time that the heartbeat went over a certain number, it would send a Twilio text message to the family members of whoever was subscribed to that particular heartbeat monitor. And he built that because his grandfather was suffering with some heart issues, and it was really important to his family that they knew that he was doing okay. They got alerted every time his heartbeat got too fast. So, he actually built this whole thing using a Raspberry PI. He had a heartbeat sensor that was attached to a bracelet and it actually connected to a Serverless function. And he demoed it and he actually did jumping jacks to get his heart rate up. It actually worked, which was super awesome. We got to demo during our demo day.Another student built a face mask detector. So, she would have someone take a picture on her website of someone wearing a face mask. And it would tell, using some cognitive APIs, if someone was wearing a mask or not. And she designed that because she knew a lot of local businesses who didn't have staff directly in the entrance of the business, and she wanted to make sure there was a solution where the owners could make sure someone was wearing a mask before they entered the establishment. So, that was a really cool project. There was another student who was actually in his forties who was a mining engineer who wanted to make a career change. So, he actually built this awesome serverless function that sent out earthquake notifications based on the data from the government, which was really, really awesome as well. So, there's so many projects that students have built with serverless functions, ranging everything from IoT to big data and so many things that I've learned actually, by watching all these projects being built.Jeremy: Yeah. That's amazing. And actually I think that something that's really interesting, you mentioned the gentleman with the career change, is that developers, I think, especially career developers, I mean, we get narrowly focused on solving software problems, right?Daniel: Exactly.Jeremy: And we maybe don't think so much about some of these other real-world problems that exist. So, that idea of taking your existing life experiences and problems that you've been dealing with and have a solution maybe in your head, but you can't express that. That's really frustrating, right? So, being able to do something like this and being able to express that, I think that's absolutely amazing.Daniel: Definitely. And I think this is one of the reasons why I find this program really rewarding for both students and the people who actually run the program because they see folks who have zero experience getting to the point where they can build the things that are in their head, which I think is magical.Jeremy: Yeah. No, I totally agree. Also, I think you said there's some other case studies on the blog?Daniel: Yeah. So, if you go to bitproject.org and go to the blog, we have a bunch of case studies that are still being uploaded. So, every week we're going to have new student projects that are going to be uploaded there. So, if you want to see some of the cool stuff that our students have built, feel free to go check it out.Jeremy: Awesome. All right. So, you just mentioned that this is a really rewarding thing. And I know for me, I do a lot of open source projects. I try to help as many people as I can. I don't run a nonprofit that runs courses. Maybe someday. But I do get exactly what you're saying because it is great to get that feedback, to see someone be successful because you've helped enable that. So, I know you're looking for mentors, right?Daniel: Yeah, definitely. We're looking for mentors who have previous experience or passion with serverless to mentor students, to get them to that point where they can build their own apps. So, we'd love to have you if you are interested and have a couple of hours per week to spare.Jeremy: Right. What's the requirement or the time commitment? It's just a few hours a week?Daniel: We recommend four to five hours a week to just work directly one-on-one with the student, and previous experience in serverless or just regular full-stack development is quite encouraged because we want to make sure that you are able to answer some of the technical questions that students might have around the content.Jeremy: Right. And you mentioned that, again, just going back to the mining example, but it sounds like that gentlemen was a little bit older. So, what's the age range of the students that you have in this program?Daniel: We don't have a minimum or maximum age that we accept. We just care about passion and the willingness to complete the program. Because the program is completely free, the standard that we set for our applicants is not of experience, but more of passion and desire to learn and become a successful developer.Jeremy: Right, right. Yeah. So, what about for mentors or people who are looking to do this? Again, I know it's rewarding to work with people and to help people. You know it's rewarding. What can you tell people, though, that might be interested in this? What are some of the other benefits, I guess, of being a mentor?Daniel: Yeah. Some of the really cool benefits I've seen is that we've been working directly with the Azure Functions team at Microsoft to mentor our students because they are using Azure Functions as the platform to host their serverless functions. And we've actually had PMs that are building as their functions, work with our students to get new ideas for product features, as well as engineers getting direct feedback on the features they worked on only a couple of weeks prior. Which I think is quite magical because I've seen these older PMs who are building that product the students are using and the students are very blunt, let me tell you. So they're like, "This feature makes no sense." So, a couple of weeks later it's magically fixed for some reason. I don't know how that could have happened, but things get resolved quite quickly when the student feedback comes in.Jeremy: Yeah. And also the other thing is, is that again, it's feedback that's, I guess, untainted from the experience of being a developer, right?Daniel: Definitely.Jeremy: So, it's like that childhood honesty that is what probably every product management team needs to figure that stuff out. So, all right. Well, so where are you going with this? What do you hope to do with Bit Project? I mean, is this something you want to grow or you want to add more courses? What's the future?Daniel: Definitely. That's a great question. So, as I work for New Relic, we are pivoting to create more content and more courses and more interactive learning materials and experiences in the DevOps field. So, right now we're creating content around observability, around container orchestration, things like that, that are more niche skills that students could learn to better their chances of getting a job as a site reliability engineer or a DevOps engineer. But most importantly, right now what we're trying to do is make sure that we're ready to scale as soon as possible because we feel like we have something really special here where we're teaching students how to ship apps, not to learn specific concepts like HTML or CSS. I think we have a really unique model here of how we're teaching students and how we're working with industry, leveraging cloud advocates and engineers who want to volunteer their specialized skill to better the community. So, right now I see the future as us helping make and lead more engineers of the future so we can have better services and better internet, hopefully, in a couple of years or a couple of decades.Jeremy: Well, it's a very noble goal. And so what about data science? I know there's a thing on the site about data science and I think you're doing some work with universities around that, right?Daniel: Yeah, definitely. So, we have a program called Bit University where we create these really easy-to-integrate data science courses for humanities classrooms, because there's a huge demand right now for humanities students to get data science experience, to get research opportunities as well as job opportunities. But a lot of them actually don't have access to data science courses because they're a humanities major, especially at smaller schools. So, what we do is we partner with universities like Cal State Fullerton and Sacramento State University to provide data science courses specifically tailored for humanities majors at these schools partnering with professors. So, yeah, that's the program and it's been super successful and we've had so many humanities students learn the basic skills they need to get these internships and these research opportunities, which has been really rewarding.Jeremy: Yeah. That's awesome. So Daniel, is there anything else you want to tell the listeners about Bit Project?Daniel: Definitely. Yeah. So, if you or your company want to help us make more technical content, like let's say you work in DevOps or you even work in Serverless functions that you want to extend the work we're doing, especially if you're an advocate, please reach out to me. I'm on Twitter. I'm on email. So, please reach out to me to work together on more technical content because my job is to make things more assessable. So, if you want to make anything, whether it's your area of expertise or something you think could be more accessible, I'd love to work with you to make sure that happens. And that is a free resource that's available to the community. That's my plug.Jeremy: That's awesome.Daniel: Reach out to me.Jeremy: That's awesome. No, I love it. Daniel, I appreciate, one, you being here and sharing this with everybody, but also the work that you're doing with the community is just amazing. The more people we can get into serverless and the more people we can get to understand this next generation of, I don't know, applications, I guess you want to call it, is absolutely a very, very noble goal. So, you mentioned Twitter. So, it's just learnwdaniel, right?Daniel: Definitely. Yeah.Jeremy: And then also the Bit Project has a Twitter, just bitPRJ. And then if you're interested in volunteering, you go to bitproject.org/volunteer. And students, if students want to sign up, how do they do that? They just go to bitproject.org?Daniel: Yeah. You can go directly to apply at bitproject.org, or if you want more information about the program, just go to bitproject. There's a huge banner at the top that will lead you directly to that website.Jeremy: Awesome. All right. Well, I will make sure I get all that into the show notes. Thanks again, Daniel.Daniel: Thank you.

Episode Summary:Daniel Toruno, the founder of GIPHME, jumps on the podcast to discuss his experience of growing from high school to an entrepreneur. Alex Quin and Daniel talk about different values and learnings that they have had along the path and the importance of being consistent no matter what. Alex and Daniel also collaborated and worked on the Hustle Inspires Hustle GIFs and discussed how they were able to generate millions of brand impressions and succeed beautifully. Alex, the show's host, also mentions his experience in strategic partnerships and the importance of connecting. They talk about making the best out of opportunities while adapting and overcoming challenges.So go ahead and dive into the episode to listen to Daniel Toruno’s Hustle, along with some noteworthy entrepreneurial takeaways. Entrepreneurial Wisdom Nuggets:It’s always important to surround yourself with people who bring something new to the table.Don’t think that you need every resource in the world to get started. All you need is enough passion, fire and time to put in to develop your skill set.Be vary of your skills and the value you can give to other people. Knowing your strength and being self-aware is extremely powerful.Podcast Outline:[2:50] The beginning and reconnect between Daniel and Alex[6:00] Surrounding yourself with the right people[8:08] Path and goals[10:50] The business and collaborations[12:40] TikTok Growth [15:20] Strategic partnerships[16:30] Reaching out to people[19:30] Value, strengths and team work[23:40] Deployment to Afghanistan[25:20] Learning from the past[27:30] Adapt and overcome[29:00] Developing through experiences[31:20] Staying healthy and groundedPower Quotes:“You are the average of the people you hangout with” - Daniel“If you give, don’t give with expecting something in return” - Daniel“It’s not anyone’s job to make something happen for you” - AlexResourcesAlex Quin’s InstagramAlex Quin’s LinkedInHustle Inspires Hustle AppHustle Inspires Hustle InstagramHustle Inspires Hustle WebsiteDaniel Toruno on InstagramGIPHME

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Hana: So Daniel, I heard you went on a vacation, where did you go?Daniel: Yeah, I went to Taiwan.Hana: Oh, sounds interesting. What did you do?Daniel: Well, I did a lot of things. It's a really interesting place. I saw a lot of culture. I saw a lot of history. I went to beautiful places. They have like really, really beautiful nature. Everything was really, really good.Hana: How was the food?Daniel: Well, the food in Taiwan is amazing. You wouldn't believe how good it is. Everything tastes amazing. And the good thing about it, it's really, really cheap.Hana: I see. Who did you go with?Daniel: I went with a Taiwanese friend, so that was really good because I cannot speak Mandarin. And my friend helped me a lot with all the food, and that was really good because I really appreciated that.Hana: How long did you go for?Daniel: It was about eight days. And I think it was more than enough to get like a quick view of the whole island. It was really nice to go from Taipei in the north to some cities in the south. I think I got a really good impression of what Taiwan is.Hana: Why did you go to Taiwan?Daniel: Well I'm really interested in Asia and Asian cultures, and since it's really far from my background, I really want to get to know better all those cultures. And since for many western people are quite the same, I really want to find out those differences. And that's why I chose Taiwan.Hana: I see.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Hana: So Daniel, I heard you went on a vacation, where did you go?Daniel: Yeah, I went to Taiwan.Hana: Oh, sounds interesting. What did you do?Daniel: Well, I did a lot of things. It's a really interesting place. I saw a lot of culture. I saw a lot of history. I went to beautiful places. They have like really, really beautiful nature. Everything was really, really good.Hana: How was the food?Daniel: Well, the food in Taiwan is amazing. You wouldn't believe how good it is. Everything tastes amazing. And the good thing about it, it's really, really cheap.Hana: I see. Who did you go with?Daniel: I went with a Taiwanese friend, so that was really good because I cannot speak Mandarin. And my friend helped me a lot with all the food, and that was really good because I really appreciated that.Hana: How long did you go for?Daniel: It was about eight days. And I think it was more than enough to get like a quick view of the whole island. It was really nice to go from Taipei in the north to some cities in the south. I think I got a really good impression of what Taiwan is.Hana: Why did you go to Taiwan?Daniel: Well I'm really interested in Asia and Asian cultures, and since it's really far from my background, I really want to get to know better all those cultures. And since for many western people are quite the same, I really want to find out those differences. And that's why I chose Taiwan.Hana: I see.

Daniel Moshe, entrepreneur, business owner and CPA firm technology guru, joins the show to share the story of how he overcame management roadblocks and worked himself out of a job by applying EOS. In this episode, Alissa and Daniel break down and analyze the importance of communication, innovation and setting core values to sustain growth within an organization. What We Covered: 01:45 – Daniel talks about how his company Tech Guru made the 2019 Inc. 5000 List of Most Successful Companies in America and how they have sustained their growth 08:09 – How Daniel has used EOS implementation to promote innovation throughout his organization 12:04 – The moment Daniel realized it was alright to be himself as an entrepreneur 17:22 – Best practices for internal communication and maintaining sustainability 19:35 – Daniel breaks down the Trash Can Test and his State of the Company Meetings 26:02 – The importance of living by your own set of core values 31:28 – Lessons Daniel would have preferred to learn earlier in his career 40:34 – Final advice Daniel would give to aspiring entrepreneurs and where listeners can follow Daniel Tweetables: “As the adage goes, ‘When the leader turns his/her head and looks in a different direction, so does everybody else.’” (06:37) (Daniel) “Learner is number one for me. And I love learning by doing and learning by teaching.” (11:02) (Daniel) “It’s not just ya know you finish school and you go work for a company. You can start your own company. And I definitely try to teach that to my boys. But I think that would be so cool to have an Entrepreneurial Day at school.” (15:19) (Daniel) “We [Tech Guru] have four core values: Caring, Accountable, Responsive and Empathetic.” (21:28) (Daniel) “Part of living your ideal life is surrounding yourself with people who you really want to be spending your time with. And that, by definition, is that they share your values.” (30:21) (Daniel) “If there’s anything I wish I could have learned and applied much sooner, it would be the way that we work with our people.” (36:15) (Daniel) Links Mentioned: Alissa’s Website – https://www.daire2succeed.com/makingthelistpodcast/ Daniel’s LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/danmoshe/ Daniel’s Website – https://www.stronginsix.com/ Tech Guru Website – https://www.techguruit.com/ Books Mentioned: Traction Entrepreneurial Leap

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Olga: So I really want to try chicha.Daniel: You should.Olga: Is it like wine? I heard like wine in Chile is really good, so is it any similarity to it?Daniel: Well, it's a bit lighter than wine. You don't get the color of red wine. It's not as strong as red wine but it also is much nicer because it's sweet and it tastes more like juice but it has alcohol in it.Olga: Then it should be a really young like wine right?Daniel: Yes it is.Olga: Oh, I see. And, you know, how many degrees of alcohol does it have? Is it really like strong?Daniel: I don't think, we haven't measured it because it's really, we don't produce it in any companies.Olga: Oh, I see. It's like a nice traditional drink?Daniel: It's a traditional drink but it's pretty much, it's really similar to wine. It's not that stronger.Olga: And do, you know, housewives in Chile make it like in their own house?Daniel: Yes, yes.Olga: Oh cool.Daniel: You can actually go to some places. There are some famous places you can go and you can see how they make it.Olga: Is it really a hard process?Daniel: I've heard it is so if you don't know how to do it, it will just stay as juice.Olga: And I guess they don't sell it in Santiago, right?Daniel: No we don't.Olga: Only, you know, in the countryside?Daniel: You have to go to the countryside, yes.Olga: Oh, I see. Well I would like to taste it so get it for me next time, right?Daniel: You have to come to Chile and get it for yourself.Olga: OK, I will.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Olga: So I really want to try chicha.Daniel: You should.Olga: Is it like wine? I heard like wine in Chile is really good, so is it any similarity to it?Daniel: Well, it's a bit lighter than wine. You don't get the color of red wine. It's not as strong as red wine but it also is much nicer because it's sweet and it tastes more like juice but it has alcohol in it.Olga: Then it should be a really young like wine right?Daniel: Yes it is.Olga: Oh, I see. And, you know, how many degrees of alcohol does it have? Is it really like strong?Daniel: I don't think, we haven't measured it because it's really, we don't produce it in any companies.Olga: Oh, I see. It's like a nice traditional drink?Daniel: It's a traditional drink but it's pretty much, it's really similar to wine. It's not that stronger.Olga: And do, you know, housewives in Chile make it like in their own house?Daniel: Yes, yes.Olga: Oh cool.Daniel: You can actually go to some places. There are some famous places you can go and you can see how they make it.Olga: Is it really a hard process?Daniel: I've heard it is so if you don't know how to do it, it will just stay as juice.Olga: And I guess they don't sell it in Santiago, right?Daniel: No we don't.Olga: Only, you know, in the countryside?Daniel: You have to go to the countryside, yes.Olga: Oh, I see. Well I would like to taste it so get it for me next time, right?Daniel: You have to come to Chile and get it for yourself.Olga: OK, I will.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Daniel: And while we drink this, we dance cueca.Olga: What is cueca?Daniel: Cueca is our national dance.Olga: How do you, how can you explain it?Daniel: It's about, OK, it's the Chilean cowboy dancing in order to flirt with the girl.Olga: Do you wear any kind of special dress?Daniel: Yes. The girl is wearing a long dress.Olga: Yes.Daniel: And the guy is wearing sombrero.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: It's not like, it's not as big as Mexican sombrero but it's smaller and a small poncho.Olga: Oh yeah, I think I've seen it before. Yeah, like the small poncho is like almost like every time it's brown and with like kind of like colorful lines?Daniel: Yes.Olga: Oh yeah, I've seen it before, yeah.Daniel: And we also wear boots and spurs which makes it really, really difficult to dance.Olga: Have you danced it before?Daniel: I have but I don't think I succeeded.Olga: Oh, I see. And what do you mean it's kind of romantic dance?Daniel: It is a romantic dance.Olga: How?Daniel: Because you have to flirt with the girl.Olga: Oh, I see.Daniel: That's the point of the dance.Olga: And is it, does it mean anything? Does it have any meaning?Daniel: It's related to how, because we use a handkerchief so it's how, it symbolizes a rope so you can, you have to catch the girl with your rope.Olga: Oh, I see, that's pretty cute.Daniel: Yeah, it is.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Daniel: And while we drink this, we dance cueca.Olga: What is cueca?Daniel: Cueca is our national dance.Olga: How do you, how can you explain it?Daniel: It's about, OK, it's the Chilean cowboy dancing in order to flirt with the girl.Olga: Do you wear any kind of special dress?Daniel: Yes. The girl is wearing a long dress.Olga: Yes.Daniel: And the guy is wearing sombrero.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: It's not like, it's not as big as Mexican sombrero but it's smaller and a small poncho.Olga: Oh yeah, I think I've seen it before. Yeah, like the small poncho is like almost like every time it's brown and with like kind of like colorful lines?Daniel: Yes.Olga: Oh yeah, I've seen it before, yeah.Daniel: And we also wear boots and spurs which makes it really, really difficult to dance.Olga: Have you danced it before?Daniel: I have but I don't think I succeeded.Olga: Oh, I see. And what do you mean it's kind of romantic dance?Daniel: It is a romantic dance.Olga: How?Daniel: Because you have to flirt with the girl.Olga: Oh, I see.Daniel: That's the point of the dance.Olga: And is it, does it mean anything? Does it have any meaning?Daniel: It's related to how, because we use a handkerchief so it's how, it symbolizes a rope so you can, you have to catch the girl with your rope.Olga: Oh, I see, that's pretty cute.Daniel: Yeah, it is.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Olga: How is Chilean Independence Day?Daniel: Well, Chilean Independence Day, it's in September.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: September the eighteenth but we have another holiday on the nineteenth so we take those two days plus probably Saturday and Sunday of the same week.Olga: What do you do?Daniel: We have parties for pretty much the whole week and we do some special, kind of special shops and then you can eat empanadas. You know what empanada is?Olga: I think so. Isn't it made, you know, with flour, you know, wheat flour and it's filled with something like corn or something?Daniel: Yeah, exactly. Well, you have the pastry and then you can fill it with meat, onion, eggs or you can actually put olives in it and then you put it in the oven. It's really, really nice.Olga: And do they sell sweet ones too?Daniel: Yes, yes. Actually now we have even you can put vegetables in it.Olga: Vegetables?Daniel: Yeah.Olga: Sweet?Daniel: I mean sweets or vegetables.Olga: Or vegetables.Daniel: Or meat, chicken.Olga: OK.Daniel: Yes. And it always has to go with a drink that is called chicha.Olga: What is chicha?Daniel: Chicha is kind of wine.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: It's made out of grapes or apple and it takes a while to get, to become, you know, alcohol so if you drink it at the beginning it's just juice.Olga: Juice.Daniel: Yes.Olga: I see.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Olga: How is Chilean Independence Day?Daniel: Well, Chilean Independence Day, it's in September.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: September the eighteenth but we have another holiday on the nineteenth so we take those two days plus probably Saturday and Sunday of the same week.Olga: What do you do?Daniel: We have parties for pretty much the whole week and we do some special, kind of special shops and then you can eat empanadas. You know what empanada is?Olga: I think so. Isn't it made, you know, with flour, you know, wheat flour and it's filled with something like corn or something?Daniel: Yeah, exactly. Well, you have the pastry and then you can fill it with meat, onion, eggs or you can actually put olives in it and then you put it in the oven. It's really, really nice.Olga: And do they sell sweet ones too?Daniel: Yes, yes. Actually now we have even you can put vegetables in it.Olga: Vegetables?Daniel: Yeah.Olga: Sweet?Daniel: I mean sweets or vegetables.Olga: Or vegetables.Daniel: Or meat, chicken.Olga: OK.Daniel: Yes. And it always has to go with a drink that is called chicha.Olga: What is chicha?Daniel: Chicha is kind of wine.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: It's made out of grapes or apple and it takes a while to get, to become, you know, alcohol so if you drink it at the beginning it's just juice.Olga: Juice.Daniel: Yes.Olga: I see.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Olga: The next place?Daniel: The next place would be well Santiago.Olga: I don't really look forward to going to Santiago. I would rather go to some other place.Daniel: OK then. Then if it's around like the center of the country, I would recommend you to go to Easter Island.Olga: Oh, I've heard about it. The place where they have those big statues, right?Daniel: Right. Do you know the names of them?Olga: Actually no.Daniel: OK. They're called Moai statues. Yes, and you can see them. If you take a plane from Santiago, it will take you around five hours and you can see the indigenous people. You can see the statues and if you're lucky you can stay in a house with an indigenous family.Olga: Actually those families, do they speak Spanish?Daniel: They do speak Spanish.Olga: That's great.Daniel: But they also speak their local language.Olga: Maybe I can learn.Daniel: Yeah. I think you can learn if you live like, if you stay with a family for a week.Olga: It is thoroughly different from Spanish, right?Daniel: It is. It's more close, it's more closer to the Polynesia.Olga: I see. That's great.Daniel: But it's really interesting and the island it's really beautiful and if you go in summer you can swim and it's going to be a really, really good time.Olga: It's not expensive to go there, right?Daniel: It's about five hundred dollars.Olga: It's OK. Yeah, I can manage.Daniel: You have to be careful though because the prices in the island are a bit more expensive than...Olga: Yeah, they do that sometimes in Mexico too. Yeah, touristic places.Daniel: Yeah. And if you want to go south, I can recommend you Patagonia.Olga: Yeah, I heard it's really hard to go there. Is it?Daniel: Well it's really hard to get there if you go on the Chilean part but if you go on the Argentinian part it's not that difficult.Olga: Then I think we want to go there too.Daniel: And it's beautiful because you have a lot of mountains, rivers, glaciers.Olga: It sounds so romantic too.Daniel: Yeah. It's good that you go with a boyfriend.Olga: Thank you. I'm looking forward to go there.Daniel: Good. If you need any other advice just let me know.Olga: Thank you.Daniel: You're welcome.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Olga: The next place?Daniel: The next place would be well Santiago.Olga: I don't really look forward to going to Santiago. I would rather go to some other place.Daniel: OK then. Then if it's around like the center of the country, I would recommend you to go to Easter Island.Olga: Oh, I've heard about it. The place where they have those big statues, right?Daniel: Right. Do you know the names of them?Olga: Actually no.Daniel: OK. They're called Moai statues. Yes, and you can see them. If you take a plane from Santiago, it will take you around five hours and you can see the indigenous people. You can see the statues and if you're lucky you can stay in a house with an indigenous family.Olga: Actually those families, do they speak Spanish?Daniel: They do speak Spanish.Olga: That's great.Daniel: But they also speak their local language.Olga: Maybe I can learn.Daniel: Yeah. I think you can learn if you live like, if you stay with a family for a week.Olga: It is thoroughly different from Spanish, right?Daniel: It is. It's more close, it's more closer to the Polynesia.Olga: I see. That's great.Daniel: But it's really interesting and the island it's really beautiful and if you go in summer you can swim and it's going to be a really, really good time.Olga: It's not expensive to go there, right?Daniel: It's about five hundred dollars.Olga: It's OK. Yeah, I can manage.Daniel: You have to be careful though because the prices in the island are a bit more expensive than...Olga: Yeah, they do that sometimes in Mexico too. Yeah, touristic places.Daniel: Yeah. And if you want to go south, I can recommend you Patagonia.Olga: Yeah, I heard it's really hard to go there. Is it?Daniel: Well it's really hard to get there if you go on the Chilean part but if you go on the Argentinian part it's not that difficult.Olga: Then I think we want to go there too.Daniel: And it's beautiful because you have a lot of mountains, rivers, glaciers.Olga: It sounds so romantic too.Daniel: Yeah. It's good that you go with a boyfriend.Olga: Thank you. I'm looking forward to go there.Daniel: Good. If you need any other advice just let me know.Olga: Thank you.Daniel: You're welcome.

Have you ever wondered what it means to be a professional conversation designer? Listen as your host Douglas Ferguson and his guest Daniel Stillman, the founder of the Conversation Factory and a master facilitator, discuss what it means to be a conversation designer and much more in this episode of the Control Room Podcast. Daniel shares how he got started as a conversation designer and why he believes that everything is an active conversation. He speaks about what he would change about meetings and why having a narrative with an opening, exploration, and closing is essential in a productive conversation. Listen as Douglas and Daniel discuss impromptu networking, the best questions to ask, and the definition of appreciative inquiry. They also talk about meeting mantras and why they are so important. Daniel shares his take on why using sticky notes is so effective in the ideation process and how to translate the practice to the virtual landscape. Daniel also explains how to host a virtual rock, paper, scissors tournament; it's both crazy and fun. Order a copy of Daniel’s book Good Talk, How to Design Conversations that Matter', available now. Show Highlights [00:50] Welcome. [01:02] Daniel's journey as a conversation designer. [04:01] Teaching design thinking to non-designers. [04:48] Everything is a conversation. [07:43] Providing an interface for an important idea for a product. [08:34] One thing Daniel would change when it comes to having meetings. [11:06] A narrative is crucial in conversations–opening, exploring, and closing. [13:19] Closing out daily meetings with precision. [16:14] The power of impromptu networking to make meetings better. [19:23] Impromptu networking is a great way to model the participation that you expect. [20:34] Daniel's favorite questions to ask. [22:15] Appreciative inquiry, defined. [24:23] The evolution and significance of Daniel's mantra. [26:27] Sticky note ideation heightens focus on specific concepts. [29:03] Reading the room virtually. [31:16] Virtual rock, paper, scissors tournament. [34:47] Ways to signal during virtual group gatherings. [35:48] Distributive facilitation and the future of work. [39:23] Thank you. [41:02] Waiting forever is not a good business plan for your company or your wedding. [43:24] Do large virtual meetings need comedians to keep people interested? [44:57] Daniel's book. [47:23] It has been a pleasure. [47:36] Subscribe. Links | Resources Daniel Stillman Good Talk: How to Design Conversations That Matter LinkedIn | Twitter | YouTube About the Guest Daniel Stillman designs conversations for a living and insists that you actually do that too. As an independent design facilitator, he works with clients and organizations of all shapes and sizes (From Google to Visa, to name a few) to help them frame and sustain productive and collaborative conversations, deepen their facilitation skills, and coach them through the innovation process. His first book, The 30 Second Elephant and the Paper Airplane Experiment is about origami and teams and yes, it’s as strange as it sounds. He hosts The Conversation Factory podcast where he interviews leaders, changemakers, and innovators on how they design the conversations in their work and lives.   Full Transcript Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting. Douglas: Today on Control the Room Podcast, I have Daniel Stillman. Daniel Stillman is a conversation designer, and insists that you're one, too. He is the founder of the Conversation Factory and a master facilitator. Welcome to the podcast, Daniel. Daniel: Douglas, it’s a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me on. Douglas: Of course. So, Daniel, I’d love to just have the listeners just hear a little bit about how you got started. Daniel: So, this is funny because I was thinking about this during our pre-conversation. You and I have known each other for a while, but there's still stuff we don't know about each other. This came up when we were having a conversation last week, where you're like, “I don't know the story behind that thing. You just assume I know that because I've known you for a couple of years,” stuff I've just never talked about. And so you've heard little snippets. So it's just kind of funny because we're friends, and now I'm telling you my story. I don’t know. Just pulling out for a second on the meta-ness of it all. Douglas: Yeah. And as you know, conversations can get weird. Daniel: Yeah, they sure can. So, wait. What was the question again? How did I—what's my origin story? Douglas: That’s right. Daniel: Was there any radioactive spiders involved in how I got my superpowers? I feel like I found my way into conversation design through design. I remember actually seeing an ad in the New York Times back when people found jobs in the New York Times’ job-wanted section. Like, that was a thing. And I remember seeing this job for an exhibit designer, and I was like, this is so cool, because I had a background in science. I had studied physics in undergrad. And this idea of designing science exhibits—I loved going to museums when I was a kid. I grew up in the Upper West Side of Manhattan. I went to the Museum of Natural History as a kid often. That's where they would just send us on a rainy day. Like, just go there. And this idea of being able to walk into a space and automatically learn just by being immersed in a space, just like, I don’t know. It kind of tickled me. And I wound up going to design school because they had a studio in science-exhibit design. And so I was super-duper excited to learn how to become a designer and how to design spaces for education. But while I was in design school, what I really learned was human-centered design. This idea that, wow, you can just go out into the world and talk to some people and learn about their problems, and then, make some stuff for them that they like, and then find out if they like it, and then, try it out again, make some test iterations. This was, like, 2005, 2006. The idea of human-centered design and design thinking we're really, I mean, nascent in design at the time. Pratt, where I went to school, was still very much form. We studied negative space and curves for entire semester-long classes. And so this idea of designing for people and designing for needs is what really inspired me. But when I got out of school and I started working in a design studio, what I realized was that I actually had to start designing—I didn't know at the time—but I was designing conversations: stakeholder-engagement workshops to try to pull intelligence out of various stakeholders to understand user needs. And so workshop design became a real passion for me. And so that's kind of how I got to where I am today was I realized that design thinking and teaching design thinking to non-designers was something that was really important. I had this fantasy. I was like, if we all knew the rules to the same game, we could play the game. Let's make something that matters together, right? And that to me are like—those are the rules of design thinking. Hey, let's empathize and understand and define and deliver. That's what I do now is I try to inspire people to be intentional about how they create. Douglas: That’s amazing. So, thinking back to when you were just post school and you were starting to have some of those early realizations that everything was a conversation, can you take us to that moment? And what was it that really clicked for you? How did that make you feel, or what was surfacing? Was there something that wasn't quite serving you at the time and you realized there needed to be more, or was it just an observation? Daniel: Actually, I can—I really remember the moment. I went to an event that my friend Jooyoung Oh was running. She was a design researcher at the time, and for many years she worked at Ziba. And at the time—I can’t remember what she was doing—but she did this workshop where she had us do collages of words and pictures that she had printed out on stickers. And we did this visual collage of “my ideal experience for blank is…,” and “my ideal experience for blank is not…” So she gave us these sheets of stickers with words and pictures on them. The pictures were evocative, emotional, suggestive. And we made these collages, and they became a focal point for a dialog. And I remember doing this and I was like, “Oh, my god, this is amazing.” And it seemed so simple. But we had this big meeting coming up with some stakeholders in the consultancy I was working on, and we were doing this big kickoff for this bug-repellent product, which I probably shouldn't talk about. And I said to my boss, he’s like, “We really need to understand all these different stakeholders and what they really think this thing should be.” And I was like, “Oh, my god, I've got a thing for that.” The language I would use now is “I have a design for that conversation.” I explained it to him a little bit, and he squinted his eyes, and he's like, “Okay.” And I'm like, “Dude, you got to trust me on this. I can land this plane. It’s going to get us good information.” And I remember going into that meeting, and we did this exercise. I remember—I literally remember printing out these sheets of these words and these stickers and these images. And one member of the stakeholder team was an engineer, and the other was a marketer. And there was a word that was placed on the is versus the isn't, in either case. The engineer did not want the experience of this chemical bug-repellent product to be magical, and the marketer thought that the experience should be magical. And so what we had was this conversation about magical and what it meant for something to be magical, and why the engineer didn't want it to be magical and why the marketer did want it to be magical. Magical to the marketer meant effortless, easy, efficacious. Boom, done—bugs are gone. And to the engineer, he's like, “If it's magical, then that means that people don't trust it. If it's magical, people don't understand why it works. If it's magical, people can't understand that it's safe and scientific.” And so just from that collaging effort, which some people would deride as goofy, mood boarding, or whatever, it provided us with an opportunity to dive into this really important conversation, which is, What do we want this thing to be, and what do we want our customers to think about it? And what we were doing was providing an interface for the conversation. If we just said, ”Hey, what do you guys want this to be?” it would have seemed like, I don’t know, one, we didn't know our stuff. But by giving them an activity to do, it pulled ideas out of their heads and put them on the wall and allowed us to unpack a really, really important idea for the project. What is magical? Douglas: That's amazing. I think that is a challenge that I see in so many meetings, where two people are using two different words to mean two different things, or they're using the same word to mean different things. And that's a real problem. And often it is not surfaced, and I think that's where a lot of these visual-thinking tools can really surface some of those things and then gives us an opportunity to discuss it. Can shape the narrative. And when I asked you about one thing that you could change about meetings, you talked about this need to have a narrative for our meetings. And just “we're having a meeting” is a flat story, and you're looking for something more dynamic. So tell us a little more about that. Daniel: Well, you were in the room when our friend Allan Chochinov, at the first masterclass, Facilitation Masterclass, you came to in New York, when Allan talked about, what was it, like, a text expander that one of his students made? Allan was an old professor of mine at Pratt. Now he runs the Products of Design program at SVA. And one of his students wrote a text expander so that whenever you write meeting, it erases it. You literally can't write the word meeting, because a meeting is a meaningless word. A meeting can mean so many different things that it means nothing. What are we doing at that meeting? Are we meeting to sing a song together? Are we going caroling. Let's meet to go caroling. Oh, let's meet to align on a decision. Let's meet to figure out what our options are. Let's meet to plan the holiday party. It doesn't mean anything. And so Allan's idea was if you don't have a prototype, you shouldn't have a meeting. If you don't have an object or an interface or a list, a thing to start the conversation off with, you shouldn't have that meeting. And so I think the story of “let's have a meeting” is just, it's a flat story, but it's also just a super-incomplete story. “Let's meet in order to blank, and let's talk about these three things, and I think that we should have process x, y,  and z  to discuss about them. Here's who can make the final decision. I'm just going to be gathering your inputs.” “Oh, okay, cool. I don't want to come to that meeting if I can't make the final decision.” Oh, interesting. Now we have tension and a cliffhanger for how this story is going to end. If you told people the real story of your meeting, most people might not even come to those meetings, which people don't like. “Well, what if I made my meetings optional? People might not come.” And I'm like, “Yeah, well, make your meetings better, make them matter, talk about something that people really care about.” Douglas: That’s amazing. Also, I think the super power of that is when you realize that there's actually multiple narratives, multiple tracks, and that you might need to divide your audience. If someone's focused more strategically and someone else more tactical, being able to split those things rather than jamming everyone together into the same conversation and creating so much discord. Daniel: Yeah. Everybody’s sitting around a table and talking over each other. And yeah, so this is why narrative is important in conversations, at least this idea of opening, exploring, and closing. Years after people come to my Facilitation workshops, the one thing people remember, they forget most things, but the one thing they remember is this idea of opening, exploring, and closing, and having time to both open or diverge and close and converge and making some time in the middle for something interesting to emerge. And I absorbed that idea from Dave Gray's coauthored book, Gamestorming, just the importance of having those three modes of thinking. And I think having that baked into the process and communicating that to people, it just means that we expect that something interesting and surprising will happen. Otherwise, just make a video. Just make a video of what you've decided and just tell everybody. Douglas: It’s fascinating because Dave Gray talks about the explorer section also being referred to as the groan zone because no one typically enjoys it. But the funny thing is most people, their meetings just consist of explorer. Let's just start exploring when we walk in the door, and then we explore until we have to walk out of the door. And that's really unfortunate if you don't give people that time, that boot-up time. I just recently read a book on facilitation that was talking about—they were talking about it as clearing, which I thought was a really fascinating way to think about an opener, is allowing people to clear themselves and get ready for the meeting to start. Daniel: Well, you’re basically closing before you can open. As we all know, if you don't close, you can't open the next—like, if you don't—and I'm sure you've seen this in sprints, right? If people don't close on day one, mapping the problem, it's really hard to open on day two, finding a target. And if you don't close on a target, it makes drawing a set of solutions really, really super hard. And if you refuse to close on a smaller number of prototypes, it means that your last day of the sprint’s going to be a bear because you test everything. Douglas: Yeah. And we've often talked about how critical closing is in the kind of more macro sense as well, because if you aren’t closing out your everyday meetings with precision, then it's really difficult to align on anything. The real, I think pathological cases, when you walk out thinking you're aligned, but you're not, and so everyone else is telling a different narrative. And you were all in the same meeting, so it should sound like it. Daniel: The cost is even higher than that, Douglas, because internally—I think one of the reasons why people pay an external facilitator, one reason why people hire me and hire you, is to create urgency. “Douglas is here. We’ve paid him. It’s expensive. Everyone stop what you’re doing. We have to focus now.” When people have an internal meeting, their urgency isn’t there. There’s no burning platform, like Kotter talks about. There’s no urgency. And so if you don’t close, you push off decisions. And work is a gas. A gas at standard pressure and temperature expands to fill the space available to it. So time creates pressure, and a sprint or a workshop reduces the volume of space we have to it. And if we don't cap things off or tie them off and say that this is the decision we're going to have, and now we're going to move on to the next phase, it's very idealistic to say these things. It is really hard to do, right? It's really hard to say, okay, well, let's just try this thing, or let's move on to the next thing, even though we don't feel we're ready. I hate doing it. I still tell my clients to do it because it's hard. I know it's important to do, and I struggle with it myself. But if we don't do that, what happens is we wind up working nights and weekends. That's the cost—not seeing our families. If we can close in the time that we have proposed, then we can have the rest of our lives back. Douglas: Yeah, well, it's interesting. You talked about it being hard, but the answer really is to disagree and commit. If we can come together and not rely on unanimity, this desire to have everyone agree, then we can get to a point where there is a decision, we're all going to support it, and we're going to see what comes out. And I think the thing that I try to coach people on is there’re one-way doors and two-way doors. So if it's a reversible decision, then why are we working weekends to get this? Daniel: Right. Having kids is not the same thing as, where should we go for vacation? Where you go to vacation is still a reversible because you've gone and you've spent that money; you've gone on that vacation. But you can always just leave early. You know, you can cancel a vacation halfway through. You're like, “I hate it here. Let's go someplace else.” But it is very hard to cancel, not to get into any politics, but once you've got the kid, it's really hard to cancel it. Douglas: That's right. Daniel: Still not impossible. All my friends who are adopted, it's a thing. But it creates repercussions. Douglas: Let’s shift gear a little bit here and talk about impromptu networking. It is a really powerful way to make meetings better. And why is that? Daniel: Oh, right, right, right. This was my—actually, it’s funny. I was only a light dabbler in liberating structures before I worked with you. I remember looking at the website, and I know many people have had this experience of, this is a crazy place on the Internet. You get to the website, and you’re like, wow, there’s a lot of interesting stuff here, but this looks like the ravings of a madman. And having met Keith, I still actually have that same opinion. It is definitely the ravings of a madman. And I had done things like that before. I had started most of my workshops in my early days with “Grab someone and tell them a story, and then, listen to their story,” because creating energy in a workshop or a meeting is a hard job, and it shouldn't be the job, the sole job, the sole responsibility of the facilitator. As I like to say, it's everybody's problem we're here to solve. It's just not my problem, presumably. If people are here, they're buying into the problem. So starting with a conversation or a story or a reflection about an important component of it is really, really great. Plus, conversations are complex, and so the fewer number of people in the conversation, the less complex it can feel. And so if you've got a group of five or ten or fifteen, pairing up with somebody just immediately simplifies the conversation and makes it more intimate. I was talking with somebody today about this. He used to be a teacher. And this “think, pair, share,” which I thought I invented because it rhymes, and I thought I was clever, this is baked into Harvard University’s education best practices initiative. And every teacher already knows this. Think to grab a partner and talk to them about blank. It's just such an easy reflex. But I see so many facilitators who try to wrangle a group as a large mass of people, and I just don't think it works. You have to be—it takes a lot of strength. This is a total side note, but I love telling this story. Have you seen The Princess Bride movie? Douglas: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Yeah. There's the scene where Fezzik and the Man in Black are fighting as Vizzini is escaping with Buttercup. And they've just climbed up the wall, the Cliffs of Insanity, and they're about to face off. And spoiler alert—Fezzik loses. And he realizes halfway through the fight why he's having such a hard time. He's like, “I haven't done one-to-one combat in so long. I'm used to fighting groups of people. You have to use different techniques.” And I think of impromptu networking as a really, really great group-fighting technique, because it doesn't matter if you've got two people or ten people or a hundred people, you say, “Okay, everybody grab a partner and have a quick conversation about blank.” And then the room is filled with energy that you did not have to create. People are connecting to other people, they're learning from each other, and then it's up to you to do the next thing, which is take that energy and funnel it, direct it, focus it towards the next activity, get people to do something with that inspiration and that information and that connection that they've gotten from other people at the moment. Douglas: Yeah. And we often talk about modeling behavior. And I think impromptu networking is a great way to model the participation that we expect. So we get them at ease with participating and gaining that human connection that they so need. And especially in the virtual world, it's really critical to start setting some of those expectations, because people aren't used to doing it when they're tuning in the virtual webinars and stuff. Daniel: Oh, my god, I know. I did that with a workshop, super-duper early in the meeting. And one of the reasons why I like to do it early is this idea of antifragile openings. If somebody shows up five or ten or fifteen minutes late, they can still float in, weave in to the second or third pairing. And this woman was like, “I knew you would do breakout rooms. I didn't think it would happen so soon.” I'm like, “Yeah, if you show up 20 minutes late to this workshop, you're going to miss something, but you're not going to miss everything. You're still going to be able to get some…” She was able to come into the third pairing in impromptu networking. Douglas: For sure. And impromptu networking only works if you have a good invitation, and your prompt has to be tight. This means that you have to have a good question. So Daniel, what are your favorite questions? Daniel: Oh, man. That's my favorite question. That’s definitely my favorite question. I actually asked that of somebody on a recent podcast episode that I was hosting, on my Conversation Factory podcast. I interviewed Cameron Yarbrough, who has a scaled coaching platform called Torch.io. And his favorite question to ask people is, what are your blind spots? And boy, oh boy, that's a really—I mean, technically an impossible question to answer yourself, but it's a really, really interesting one. He described it as a cone, like a Zen question that is unanswerable but interesting. And so good questions can be like that. I think the other easy, easy question is, tell me a story about blank. Just tell me a story when you last blank, or tell me a story about how you have blanked. Or just go straight to story because stories evoke emotions and empathy. So don't just say, “Tell me a story of when you were at your best.” It's a hard question to answer still, but it's a really interesting one, and it evokes interesting reactions for people. And that's why I think focusing on positivity over negativity is always hard. Douglas: Absolutely. That was the thing I was going to bring up next, actually, was the fact that I'm a huge fan of, if your questions can be appreciative or express gratitude, that can be really amazing. And if you can make people become introspective. So think about a time when you maybe received—what's the best compliment you've ever received? So lovely. Daniel: Yeah. And just to double stitch on that, by the way, not everybody knows what appreciative inquiry is. And it's, when you look at it, if you come from design thinking or the sprint world, you look at appreciative inquiry, and you're like, it can be weird, but you're like, wait, how is this different than design thinking? And the difference is is that you only focus on the positive. And there's this idea that you can, in fact, heal a system and a person by looking at only the positives. And in my book, I actually, I found a story. I couldn't find the truth of it. I couldn't find a direct quote, but people have talked about it, this idea that—I forget the name of the Dallas Cowboys coach—but at one point during a slump, he was like, we are only going to show you your best plays. You know, they tape the plays, and they go back, and they review things. They’re like, look, we are going to review and analyze your best plays only. And it kind of flips things on its head because a lot of designers and a lot of innovators think like, oh, we're problem solving. And so if I'm problem-solving, I have to look at what's broken, and then I have to fix it. But with appreciative inquiry, there's this radical idea that I can find what's working and ask how I can magnify it and expand it. Douglas: Yeah. there's an amazing book called Super Human, and it goes into a lot of super athletes that are doing just amazing things, like free scaling mountains, and the winged airmen—the Red Bull team that just jumps off of buildings and does insane things. Daniel: Base jumpers. Douglas: Exactly. And one of the things that they discovered—and this is a phenomenon in this world—which is there is something that humans have not been able to do for decades. And the first time one human does it, like 10, 15 other humans would do it a day later, because they've shown that it's possible. It just opens up the world of, well, now I can just go to do that thing that I know—I've seen them do it. Now I can do it. Daniel: Yeah. Wow. I love that. That's really, really awesome. Douglas: And so this is similar to your mantra, Daniel: if you don't write it down, it didn't happen. So we need to be able to see it to prove it, and then we can we can double stitch on it. And we have a mantra that's similar: always capture room intelligence. So why is this so important? Daniel: Well, I, first, have to honor my friend Miles Begin, who gave me that mantra years ago, and that was when I first started teaching design thinking to non-designers. That's the whole point is if it's not on a sticky note and it's not on the wall, we can't talk about it. And having that mantra’s really helpful, especially if you have over-talkers in the room, and it's also really helpful if you have “under-talkers” in the room. If somebody’s really, really overexplaining an idea, you can say, “Hey, can you fit that on one sticky note and get it up on the wall? That is truly, truly awesome. That'll be great.” But we used to tell a story about—have you ever watched Mad Men? Douglas: Of course. Daniel: Yeah. So there's an amazing Mad Men episode where—I forget the team. It's, like, Peggy and a couple of the other people stay up all night to bang out some ideas for something. They're drinking, and they're smoking. And they finally have this amazing insight, and they're like, “Wow, that is such a great idea!” And then they go to sleep because they're satisfied. Spoiler alert—they didn't write their idea down. And so the next day, when Don Draper comes in, and Don’s like, “Okay, what’d you jerks come up with?” And they're like, “Oh, my god, we've got this great idea,” and they're looking around their desks, and they're like,  Wait a minute. What was it?” And their brains are just this empty vacuum of space. And they're like, “Oh, my god, we didn't write it down.” And they're just crestfallen. And Don's like, “I understand. That happens sometimes.” It’s one of the few moments when Don decides to be really, really human. Like, he gets it. You didn't write down the idea, and it disappeared. And so I found an old PowerPoint of mine from, like, one of the first design-thinking workshops I ever taught. And there is a scene—we found a screenshot of Don Draper and some other people, just to teach people this idea of, if you don't write down your ideas, they will disappear into the air. And this is long before I knew that conversations had interfaces and that if you use a durable interface for your conversations, not surprisingly, you can have a more-sustained conversation about it. That’s why when you get it on the wall, we can talk about it. If it's not on the wall, I'm just interpreting what I heard, and it can disappear in the air. So one of the great things about design-thinking workshops is that we create this paper trail of insights and agreements when we go from phase to phase. And if you don't do that, we're having a much floofier conversation. So it's really, really important to get things down. And if we're talking about virtual, it's actually really problematic. I mean, I love MURAL, but MURAL sticky notes are not the same thing as real sticky notes, because on a real sticky note, there's a limit to how much information I can put on the sticky note. With MURAL, you can literally write the great American essay on one sticky note and just shrink it down to infinitely small size. So, you're not as limited. We always used to tell people, oh, use Sharpie on a sticky note. That's because a Sharpie and a sticky note create one idea. But it's way too easy in virtual visual capture to put too much information into one sticky note. Douglas: You know, Daniel, that's a big debate: how much limitations did the software put on us to mimic the real world? I think that's a fascinating conversation. Daniel: I would love to be able to switch on real-sticky-note mode. Douglas: Yeah, that’d be fantastic. And I find as a facilitator, where you talked about virtual being more difficult, and this is just one example. There's a long, long list of why we have to lean in more, and it's difficult to be a lazy facilitator, virtually, whether it's we're looking to see how long the sticky notes are or we're making sure that people are connected and having to do troubleshooting and provide technical support. One of the things we spoke about, this notion of helping teams get unstuck and making sure that they continue the momentum as they leave the workshop and they go start to build their vision. And you talked about that being the magic question, just having to look around and just check and see if everything's fixed. This is something that I've talked to Erick Skogsberg quite a bit about, this notion of, from learning the science, we have to consider assessment points. What is our learning objective and making sure we've built in points of assessment so we can understand if we've gotten there. And even if you're not training people, it's important that you build this into workshops because you're taking people on a journey and you want to make sure that they're hitting the milestones, right? What do we do virtually? You and I have talked about this quite a bit, but what do the listeners need to know about virtual kind of reading the room? Daniel: Well, you have to find other feedback loops. And I think that's where—like, when we've set up MURALS for multiple tables, when you put them on separate MURALS, which I know is something you've recommended in the past, especially if you're doing a larger meeting, putting them on separate MURALS reduces the load, but it makes it harder as a facilitator to monitor multiple tables. So it's nice to have three or—if you only have 15 or 20 or 30 people to just make areas for each of the breakout rooms to work, because then you can just see everything that's happening, because while MURAL does have those preview images, as we've argued over before, the preview images don't update often enough for you to get that feedback loop, but it can be really, really simple. I've seen you do this, where you ask everybody to rename themselves in Zoom. And that's pretty meta because you're asking them to give you some information about themselves, but you're also testing whether or not they're engaged and whether or not they are interested. And if you don't see people—if you see people not doing that, then, we don't have anyplace to go because it's like, oh, they don't know how to use the tool, Zoom, and they aren't interested enough to tell you something about themselves in this area. And so it's just finding simpler, smaller feedback loops to make sure that you're moving forward with people with you, if that makes sense. Douglas: Oh, absolutely. And we've been using two facilitators in most of our workshops, with someone dedicated to looking for those signals. So they're kind of keeping a lookout for those things. So, absolutely. And also, just to keep this a bit evergreen, I'm now on the beta for the new rendering engine, so do not have to make multiple MURALS for even larger gatherings now on MURAL, so that's pretty exciting. And after that launches, you won’t have to be in the beta program, have access to that. So I'm sure listeners in the future will be happy to have that. Daniel: I’m wondering why I’m not on that beta program. Douglas: I think you should talk to some friends, Daniel. So with that, I’m super-curious about Rock, Paper, Scissors online. How does this work? Daniel: Well, so here's the thing. Like I say, I, because I think you're referring to a LinkedIn post that I made, where I didn't even think it was possible. I just sort of assumed. And this goes to your sporting-events thing, right? where when somebody does it, then you're like, oh, that's how to do it. And it partially goes against my lazy facilitation principle. But during some of the facilitation masterclass cohorts that I run, we make spaces for people to try out new warmups and icebreakers that they've never done before. And this one woman, Janine Underhill, said, I'd like to try to do a Rock, Paper, Scissors tournament.” And I'm like, “Good luck, sister. I'm going to enjoy this.” And she did it. She did it. It can be done. I think what's interesting about it is that simultaneity in remote facilitation is impossible because of the speed-of-light limit. It’s basically an Einstein-Bose condensate kind of a problem. If you and I tried to snap at the same time, we can’t. Even if we said, “One, two, three, snap,” we wouldn’t snap at the same time, because you wouldn’t hear me snapping at the same time. There’s a delay because we’re in between this piece of software. The software institutes a delay, and sound travels more slowly than light. And so we’re never going to have simultaneity. In person, it is very hard to notice that lack of simultaneity, right? When I say, “Rock, paper, scissors, shoot,” it seems simultanous because we're within, like, two feet of each other. But when we are 100,000 miles from each other, and we are on Zoom, we notice it. And what happens is people start slowing down, because we go one, two, three, shoot, as we wait for the other person to catch up with us. And then somebody always throws before the other person, and so it's like—but we don't have a response action time to metabolize that information. And so it's actually a really interesting learning opportunity to talk about how challenging communication can be remotely. But it is totally possible to do it, and it is fun to do it, and it is ridiculous to do it. Everyone should try it. Douglas: That’s amazing. So structurally, when you do a Rock, Paper, Scissors battle, you're just having people start off in groups. Daniel: Yes. Douglas: And then the winners are laddering up to—it’s like a basketball tournament kind of… How do you do all these groups? Are you doing breakout groups, and then combine them together? Daniel: Yes, I will, in the interest of community, I will tell you all of my secrets. So Janine worked too hard at it, I think. She did all the initial pairings. We only had a group of 15, and she did all the initial pairings, and she did the secondary pairings as well, and she did the tertiary pairings. She called out all the pairings, kept track of it all. And that was to her credit. Douglas: She was recording the brackets. Daniel: She was the bracket-eur. My variation is to have people turn off their video if they lose. That's the easiest thing to do is just have people turn off their video if they lose, because then, at least, the bracketing is easier. Douglas: Yeah. Or someone could raise their hand if they're looking for… Daniel: Yes. Totally. They're signaling. And so here's the thing. We could try to do it a perfect way, or we could let the group solve it and see if we can get them to understand everything there is to understand about group communication, because signaling, oh, how do we signal stuff? Okay. How do we start—how do we keep signaling for the rest of our meetings? Okay, cool. And I've seen groups really develop some great habits around, okay, put your hand over your head if you haven't blanked. And so I don't think the bracketing thing—video makes it easier. Bracketing, the problem is, is that I think bracketing can't be done automatically. It's much harder to say, okay, I'm going to claim blank person as my hand-off person. So I haven't solved it. But I also haven't tried to do it with 100 hundred people. I've only done it with 20. And then it works fine. And it's fun. Douglas: Absolutely. Daniel: It's as fun and as ridiculous, if not more so, than doing it virtually. Douglas: Speaking of distributed facilitation in general, you've mentioned to me that it's weirder and squishier. So I guess some final comments for the listeners around challenges, just why is it weirder and squishier? And then, what are you hopeful for? What are you optimistic about? Daniel: I’ve written about this before. I can send you a link to the article on LinkedIn that I wrote. It's called “This Digital Place,” and we have a sense of place that comes for free by being four-dimensional beings. We exist in space and time, and we've had a long time, our entire lives, to get used to it. And we've had 40,000 years as modern humans to evolve for it. We've evolved in it. This is our—you know, [knocks on wood] this physical space is my native place. And so when we go into this digital place, it feels weird because it is literally not natural for us. But those Post-it notes behind you on the wall are not natural for us either. We designed those for ourselves as a tool, and I cannot imagine having an in-person meeting without those tools anymore, in the short decade that I've had those tools. I remember we didn't always have big Post-it sticky pads. We didn't always have whiteboards. We've grown really used to this environment. In the last 10, 20, 30 years, we've created this built environment around our meetings and our engagements, and we require them now. But I assure you, they are not natural. They feel natural to us because we’ve become acculturated to it and to them. And we do not have a culture for this distributed place. We don't have rituals for this distributed place. We are learning them slowly but surely. The example I love to give is, whatever it was, like, maybe five years ago, that guy from the BBC whose kids tromped in in the middle of his presentation—a little girl in yellow, running in like she owned the place. It was hilarious. And the guy was super embarrassed. The mother of the kids was extra-special embarrassed. And I was listening to NPR yesterday, where this woman was welcoming this man on to share a report about something. And he's like, I'm really glad to be here. Blah, blah, blah. And then his dog barks in the background. And the interviewer was like, “And it sounds like your dog’s excited to be with us today as well, too. What’s his name?” And he’s like, “It’s Buster.” And she’s like, well, hello to Buster. So, blah, blah, blah, let’s talk about blah, blah, blah. And it was seamless. It was smooth. She was like, whatever. We're just here, and there's a dog. Nobody cares anymore. That's something to be optimistic about, that we can adapt to this place, that we can learn new tools, that we can learn new rituals and new patterns. The fact of the matter is this is not natural, but there's very, very little that's natural about our lives. And we make our lives. We design the spaces and places where we have the conversations that we want to have. And so I'm pretty optimistic about the fact that our old patterns don't work as well here and that we have to develop new patterns, and that it is possible that maybe we will learn to retain some of those patterns when we get back to meeting in person in 19 months, my current estimate. Douglas: Well, Daniel, I look forward to continuing this journey with you. I agree, there's lots to learn and there's lots to explore. And we won't know for quite some time where these new norms and these new customs emerge, but I'm already seeing some things happen, and I think you and I are doing our best to be on the forefront of that. And so I just want to say thanks for being there with me, and it's been fun learning with you. Daniel: Likewise, man. I mean, a lot of facilitators say, “I can't feel the room, and it's not as good.” And honestly, I was one of those facilitators. Jim Kalbach from MURAL will literally quote back to you, like, the umpteen times over the last three years that I said to him, like, “I'm good, dude. I'm a great in-person facilitator. I'd much rather not compete on a global scale with anybody who has access to MURAL for facilitation gigs.” And we're in a situation where that's no longer possible in person is a fundamental assumption of what I used to do. That is impossible anymore. And I think if we can't adapt, if I can't adapt, if the rest of us can't adapt, we are royally screwed. We have to learn how to do this. And that's one of the reasons why we did the large virtual meetings things together. I thought it was important to push my own limits and say, is it possible to do the kind of big, crazy workshops that we did in person? If they had value—and we thought they did, and I think they still do—then, can we do them here, rather than, I don’t know, wait 18 months before having a bunch of people come together to make an important decision? I mean, honestly, Janet and I are having a long, ongoing discussion about this. We had to cancel our wedding in June. And what to do about getting married, and do we do a Zoom wedding? Will that be fun? Will that be interesting? Will it feel like a real wedding? Or should we wait an indefinite amount of time to bring everyone together to celebrate the fact that we have something good going here? I don't think that waiting forever is a really good business plan for anything, not for a marriage and certainly not for third-quarter top-to-top strategic meeting. I see you're nodding. You’re like, yeah, they should not be putting off those meetings. And I think people are putting them off, or they're doing them really, really poorly. Douglas: Yeah. I think there are two outcomes we've seen the more we explore this with companies. And some companies have the mindset, they have it figured out because they know how to run a Zoom meeting, or they know how to do webinars. Daniel: Right. One to Many—done. Douglas: Yeah. Like, I'm good. So they're just in the camp of, don't realize all the potential they're missing. And then you've got another camp that says we’ll just wait until we can do it in person because they've got caught flat-footed and they know that there's so much missing, but they don't know what to do. And so that's definitely the inspiration for putting together more virtual offerings. And the large virtual-meetings workshop is, I think, really hits the nail on the head as far as a real challenge around, what do we do with large groups? That sounds troubling. But the fascinating thing to me, Daniel, is that there's so much more that people learn. These aha moments can apply to much smaller meetings, but it's the large groups that people are the most confused by, and so that's where we approach the teaching opportunity. Daniel: Yeah. And large can just mean 15 or 20. It’s not hard to break the two-pizza rule, right? It is really easy to break the two-virtual-pizza rule quickly, and most of us don't have Fezzik-level skills when it comes to wrestling with large groups. And we need them. Everybody needs them, I think, especially if you work in a large corporation. But also, I went to a birthday party on Friday for someone I went to junior high school with. And this guy’s sister, who I was best friends with in junior high, she does stand-up comedy. And we did a call on Wednesday for the party, and she’s like, “What should I'd be looking out for, Daniel?” And I was like, “Well, look, it's a lot of people. You need to have an M.C.” And she's like, “Oh, I can do that,” because she's M.C.’d open comedy nights. And it’s like, “You need to have somebody to keep the energy moving and to orchestrate things and to keep the conversation moving.” It's not trivial. I think maybe this is where comics will find work in this new economy. How the Emmys and the Oscars need Billy Crystal and Kevin Hart, maybe these large virtual meetings just need comics, which is an insight you had for the first Control the Room,right? Just bring in some comedy to keep it going. Douglas: It might work a little better in the virtual setting, maybe. We’ll see. Daniel: Yeah. Are they available for me and my team? Douglas: Yeah. Bring them in, for sure. Yeah. There’s also some companies that have sprung up that allow you to rent— Daniel: Llamas? Yes, I know. Douglas: Llamas and perezosos and all sorts of stuff. Daniel: I don’t even know what those are, but… Douglas: Oh, it’s a sloth. Daniel: Oh, okay. Douglas: Everyone's got to have a sloth at their workshop. Daniel: Yeah, but see, that’s just like shiny distraction. Douglas: I agree. And Daniel, you know, I think this is the exact reason why so many people dislike icebreakers and eye openers and energizers, because they just throw them in, with no reason whatsoever, and without a debrief—in fact, I've started to say, if you can't ask, “Why did we just do that,” and have that erupt into a pithy conversation, ask yourself, “Why did we just do that?” Daniel: Whoa, yeah. I agree with you. Obviously, I agree with you. Douglas: So, Daniel, what do we need to leave listeners with? What should they know? And how could they find you, contact info, all that good stuff? Daniel: Well, I'm on the Internet, easy to find, fairly SEO’d. If you Google “Daniel Stillman,” you might find me. If you Google “The Conversation Factory,” you'll definitely find me. I have a podcast. I have a book coming out, by the way, Douglas. It will be coming out shortly, God willing. It's called Good Talk: How to Design Conversations that Matter. They're advertising it as a step-by-step handbook. It's not a step-by-step guide, because I don't think there's a single recipe that could possibly account for all situations. But it is a map to the territory and can help people learn how to form and shape and guide all the conversations in their lives better, from big-group conversations to the conversations that they have with themselves every day. We have a shocking number of conversations with ourselves, and those need to be designed just as much as quarterly action-plan gatherings and off-sites. And so if you go https://theconversationfactory.com/goodtalk, you can find it. You can download some chapters. It’s a thing. You don’t have to pay me anything. You don’t have to buy the book. The first two chapters, there’s a lot there—although somebody has told me that I ended the first two chapters at the right spot, that made them want to read the third chapter. And to that, I have to thank Kellie McGann, who helped me with the editing of the book. Douglas: It is a fantastic book. I've read it several times— Daniel: What?! Crazy. Douglas: —and I think it's really critical for people that are wanting to elevate their meetings and just their interactions at work and at home. It is a fantastic way to step back and look at your dialog in an abstract way so that you can put terms to it. So just like physics is the science of being able to take the phenomenon in the world, how the air moves past you and how your car functions, and you can put equations to it so you can understand it. You can talk about it in an abstract way so that you can reason about it. Daniel has done that for conversations. And if you think about how many conversations we have and all the moments throughout life where conversations are important, you can imagine how relevant this book becomes. And I can't highly recommend it enough. Daniel: It's really, really—it's wonderful to hear you say that. I appreciate you saying it. Writing a book, as you know, is a terrible, terrible thing. I’d never recommend it to anybody. The fact that it's out there and everyone can read it is terrifying to me. You can see what goes on in my head now, and the fact that I had a love of physics, and still do, and a love of design, it's not surprising, hearing you talk about it, I'm like, “All right. Of course. That's why I wrote the book the way that I did.” Douglas: Excellent. Well, Daniel, it's been a pleasure having you here today, and I can't wait to chat with you again. Daniel: Thanks, Douglas. It's always a pleasure. Thanks, man. Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together, voltagecontrol.com.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Olga: Hey, Daniel, how are you?Daniel: Hey Olga, I'm fine thanks. How are you?Olga: Fine. Actually I have a favor to ask you.Daniel: Yes, sure.Olga: OK. Like my boyfriend and I are planning to go to Chile next month.Daniel: Really?Olga: Yes, so I was trying to ask if you could recommend us some place to go.Daniel: Sure.Olga: All over Chile. Actually we're planning to go to three places because we're planning to go to Chile for around one month so I think we have enough time.Daniel: That's good.Olga: Yes.Daniel: So have you been to South America before?Olga: No, never.Daniel: Never?Olga: No, we've never been outside of Mexico.Daniel: Wow, so this is going to be your first time in South America?Olga: Yes.Daniel: Good. Well it depends what you want to do. You said about a month and also it depends on how much money you're taking.Olga: We have been saving around like one year money so I think we have enough money to, you know, just travel around and don't worry about money.Daniel: OK, good, because I think if you go to the right places you can save a lot of money.Olga: Oh.Daniel: Because if you go, you know, to like big fancy restaurants, you're going to take a lot of money but I can give you a lot of tips so you can save money and also have I think a much better time.Olga: That would be great.Daniel: OK. So I can recommend you about three places.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: The first one would be in the north.Olga: Oh.Daniel: We have a desert.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: So if you are OK with the heat.Olga: Yeah, I'm OK. I'm from Mexico.Daniel: OK, that's good then. It's called Atacama Desert and we have a lot of really, really nice places there.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: There's a place called San Pedro de Atacama. There's another one called The Valley of the Moon and it's supposed to be, it's supposed to look like the moon actually, that's why the name.Olga: It sounds so romantic.Daniel: It is. I've never been with my girlfriend but it should be romantic.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: There's also a lot of mountains and if you go to a couple of places near the Andes you can see a lot of beautiful lakes and you will also have to be careful with the altitude.Olga: Oh, right, yeah, because I come from a really low place.Daniel: Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Olga: Hey, Daniel, how are you?Daniel: Hey Olga, I'm fine thanks. How are you?Olga: Fine. Actually I have a favor to ask you.Daniel: Yes, sure.Olga: OK. Like my boyfriend and I are planning to go to Chile next month.Daniel: Really?Olga: Yes, so I was trying to ask if you could recommend us some place to go.Daniel: Sure.Olga: All over Chile. Actually we're planning to go to three places because we're planning to go to Chile for around one month so I think we have enough time.Daniel: That's good.Olga: Yes.Daniel: So have you been to South America before?Olga: No, never.Daniel: Never?Olga: No, we've never been outside of Mexico.Daniel: Wow, so this is going to be your first time in South America?Olga: Yes.Daniel: Good. Well it depends what you want to do. You said about a month and also it depends on how much money you're taking.Olga: We have been saving around like one year money so I think we have enough money to, you know, just travel around and don't worry about money.Daniel: OK, good, because I think if you go to the right places you can save a lot of money.Olga: Oh.Daniel: Because if you go, you know, to like big fancy restaurants, you're going to take a lot of money but I can give you a lot of tips so you can save money and also have I think a much better time.Olga: That would be great.Daniel: OK. So I can recommend you about three places.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: The first one would be in the north.Olga: Oh.Daniel: We have a desert.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: So if you are OK with the heat.Olga: Yeah, I'm OK. I'm from Mexico.Daniel: OK, that's good then. It's called Atacama Desert and we have a lot of really, really nice places there.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: There's a place called San Pedro de Atacama. There's another one called The Valley of the Moon and it's supposed to be, it's supposed to look like the moon actually, that's why the name.Olga: It sounds so romantic.Daniel: It is. I've never been with my girlfriend but it should be romantic.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: There's also a lot of mountains and if you go to a couple of places near the Andes you can see a lot of beautiful lakes and you will also have to be careful with the altitude.Olga: Oh, right, yeah, because I come from a really low place.Daniel: Yeah.

The COVID-19 craziness has caused people to stress out and scramble to work remotely. This crisis is pushing everything forward technologically. Why not hire a virtual assistant (VA) to scale your property management business? Today’s guest is Daniel Ramsey of MyOutDesk. Daniel is a real estate investor/broker who loves doing deals, and property management is a way to connect with others and create communities. But he also wants time to take a vacation with his family! You’ll Learn... [02:52] MyOutDesk: Property managers find talent to inexpensively scale their business. [04:05] MLS Porn: Scrolling through new investment properties on the market. [05:05] Remote Reality: In 2018, 5% of America worked remotely, now it’s 50%. [07:58] Work Culture: Maintain good team, quality interaction, and customer service; and reduce operational/overhead costs. [15:00] Steps to Scale: Assess business, compound leverage, develop plan, craft outcome, start interviewing, launch, and training.  [25:48] Match Values, Not Personalities: Define who you are as a person and company. [33:15] Go Remote Guide: Tips for working remotely with new technology. [35:08] Push vs. Pull Leadership: Communicate, don’t micromanage. [44:15] MyOutDesk Mission: VAs need to be indispensable and irreplaceable. [46:15] Pricing vs. Cash Crunch: Do you need help? Can you afford MyOutDesk? [53:52] Care ROI Concept: Emotion is what creates memories. Tweetables I had a need in my own real estate practice. I hired a virtual assistant. I was like, ‘Wow, this works.’ Leverage is compound interest and entrepreneurs’ biggest swing. When I hire somebody, I'm hiring them to grow my revenue. I'm hiring them to save money. I'm hiring them to own an entire process for my business. The biggest cure for the economy is businesses and entrepreneurs staying productive. Resources MyOutDesk Go Remote Guide (text MOD to 31996) MLS Mark Spain Bluefishing by Steve Sims Upwork OpenPotion DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive DoorGrow Website Score Quiz DoorGrow Cold Leads Calculator Transcript Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today, we have a really cool guest. He is Daniel Ramsey, over at MyOutDesk. Daniel, welcome to the show. Daniel: Thanks for having me, Jason. I'm so glad to be here. Jason: Daniel and I were talking a little bit in the green room chatting up a little bit about what's going on. It's a little bit crazy right now, with COVID-19 and Coronavirus, and all this stuff, the real estate market looks scary. We may get into that a little bit in the show, but our topic today is using a virtual assistant to scale your property management business with MyOutDesk. Before we get into that, Daniel, what I want to hear about your background, your entrepreneurial journey and that should lead us right into the inception of MyOutDesk. Daniel: Yes, sure, man. I love the show. I'm really grateful to be here. I agree, I'm a real estate guy. I love doing deals and property management is just such a great way to connect and create community, and also, it's a great place for deal flow if you're a buyer and want long-term wealth. I love being here. I'm a real estate investor, myself, real estate broker, contractor, mortgage guy, developer, broker, this is my world. I love it. In fact, you'll love this story. My wife and I, we've got two little girls who will drive in the neighborhood and I'm like, "baby, baby, open house, I gotta go look at it," and she's like, "fine, just go." I'm a real estate guy, I love what I do. We help property managers basically find talent and inexpensively scale their business. The topic is timely. Our business was started because I had a need in my own real estate practice. I hired a virtual assistant. I was like, wow, this works. My wife and I went on our honeymoon, and as many entrepreneurs, I brought my laptop on my honeymoon. I'm in Guatemala in a rainforest, and I'm at the bar at like 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning and the bartender in Spanish is making fun of me. He's basically saying things like dumb Gringo, his wife's here, beautiful woman just married, why is he still working? At that moment, I knew something had to shift in my world, and that's when we started to scale and really use leverage at a high level. Jason: I would imagine that most of our partners as entrepreneurs go through quite a bit, and they don't always appreciate us doing things like that. Daniel: My wife calls it MLS porn for me, because at night, I'm scrolling through all the new investment properties that came on the market. I'm really lucky to marry her, and she's understanding. But at the same time I wanted to stay married, and I wanted to have a kid, and a family, and I knew I needed leverage in my business. I wanted to be able to take a vacation. Jason: I'm sure you have kids at home right now. Daniel: That's right. Jason: Me too, it's crazy. One of them just came in to hand me an Xbox controller so I could give them access because I control that, crazy. I'm on air, they don't care. They're like, dad, this is important. Daniel: This is the deal. This is what we're in, and it's crazy timing because we have this call like a month ago, and we're in a crazy place. In 2018, 5% of America worked remotely, 5%. Last week, that number went to 50%, in one week. Jason: The rest are probably not even working. Daniel: Yeah. Here's the thing, as a company, one of the things that we've been doing is we've been remote for 13 years, 100%. We're about 1300 people. If you're listening right now, we figured out how to scale a business remotely with 1300 people, and serve clients like property managers, real estate brokers, investors, flippers, that's what we do. In the last couple of weeks, we've helped more companies just understand the tools required, what systems you have to put in place, how to communicate with your people when they're not physically in your office. We put together a whole like go remote guide that we're going to give away in the show, basically, just to help things like what you just said. We were just on a conference call with our largest client and his two and a half year old son just, hey, daddy, I need more Cheerios. This is just how it is now. Jason: Yeah, that is what it is. There's all these funny videos you'll see online where you've got like some guy on the news and his kid walks in, in a diaper, and then the wife's crawling on the floor because she thinks she's not on camera trying to pull it out, these things. The world we live in, we're fathers, we run companies, there are moms that run companies, and I don't think there's anything that needs to be hidden. It's not like there's something shameful that you have kids or that you have a personal life. For those that are watching this or listening, just own that. It's totally okay, everybody likes to see that you're a real person anyway, instead of just a suit and a tie stuck behind a desk all the time. It's a lot more relatable I would imagine. I've got four kids. I'm slightly insane, I think, and it's crazy, and they need to be quieter, hey guys be quieter. Daniel: That's awesome. Jason: I started my company Open Potion the corporation back in 2008 right around the time everything was falling apart then. I've just worked from home. I've been virtual, my team members are in Toronto, New York, wherever. We've got some in the Philippines. A while ago, there's always a stigma connected to those that were remote, especially if they were not in America. I think that we're going to see some crazy shifts that are going to be happening. One, every company that’s like, “We can’t have people working from home, how will we know that they're actually going to do work?” These things, these concerns, now you have to. If you want them to work, they're working from home. Your office is shut down, you're not doing business. Everybody's figuring out in this new environment, and they're scrambling. I'm sure companies like Zoom are just going to go gangbusters, but this is the new world that we live in. I think it's going to push everything forward technologically which is exciting, and it's going to cut out a lot of bullshit. All the fluff that was just bloated in companies is just eating up resources, like people are just going to realize after this why do we need this $20,000 a month office space for this big corporate building? All these things are going to be shifting, and we're going to have this new culture as a result of everybody being forced to stay indoors and work from home. I think that's going to open people up to the idea that, hey, I can have team members and they don't have to be right geographically near me. I can find the best that are anywhere, and find people that are lower costs, and figure this out. People are going to be a lot more open that have been closed to it before. I imagine this will be really good for companies like yours, to be able to help people out and help people see that you can still maintain a really good team, and quality interaction, and customer service, and you can lower your operational costs, or at least make a more healthy cash flowing business by reducing some of these overhead expenses that you have in the company. I was hanging out on a really great course with training over the last few days with a financial coach. One of the phrases, I don't know who said it but he made this joking comment that overhead walks on two legs. Basically saying people are the biggest piece of overhead a lot of times that we might have in a company. I want to point out, that was a really humble intro you gave, but in the written intro I have here you've got 10 years of experience serving more than 5000 clients, including over half of the real trends, top 10 Real Estate teams. Daniel: Right. Jason: Your company has already got a who's who list of clientele as far as real estate businesses go. Daniel: Yup. Jason: You've built real estates' number one staffing company, and it says you've worked with some of the top clients in the industry from sales organizations like the Mark Spain team to tech providers, like the Zillow Group, Keller Williams, and RE/MAX, and so you sound like you're a pretty cool connected guy as well. Daniel: Maybe connected. I don't know about cool, though. What we do, and I love this. We have a property manager who's in Austin, and I really love this guy. Jason: That's where I'm at. Daniel: Okay, cool. You guys are neighbors. He manages half a billion dollars of commercial real estate, and he's like one of these guys that's just freaking brilliant. I'm like, hey, what are you doing? He's like, I'm sitting with my son and looking at deals. He's middle age, and he's really had a lot of success, but he called us because he had four property managers, a bookkeeper, and an office manager. Five people running half a billion of real estate, and he's like, hey, my people are overworked. I'm worried that nobody's taking vacations. Everybody works on Saturdays and Sundays, and our systems aren't tight. Jason: Burnout is coming. Daniel: Exactly. They had a system that didn't have all the information in it. They had basic terms, but every lease is different. Some tenants are paying for maintaining their HVAC, some are not. He had all of these leases that nobody had actually put into the system. Every time somebody called and said my roof is leaking, he'd be like, okay, we'll call you back, and then they have to dig up the lease, and we have the lease and say, who do we call? Is it our responsibility, or is it their responsibility? Five hours later, they're responding to what could be a really big deal like damage everywhere for the tenants. We started working with him about two years ago, and we started helping him with SOPs, Standard Operating Procedures. We started helping them take their leases and get him into the system, which is any basic scale a business grows, a business scenario. We gave him a book like an AP, AR person, so now his really talented bookkeeper who's managed his whole financial world for his entire career has time in her day to think strategically, and save money for the company. What we did is all the property managers got in the system. We basically gave them somebody to run their system so that there was a person who could enter data and just make sure the system was clean. The bookkeeper got an assistant, and now all of a sudden he's poised for what are some phenomenal growth years that he's had in the last couple of years. It didn't change his world. It really didn't, because we're $21,000 a year for a full-time employee. If you think about that, half a billion dollars making all the rents, literally for almost $100,000 now he's not going to lose his team. That's our story. That's what we do for really big companies like Zillow, and all the way down to small investors who own 5 or 10 properties and just need somebody to help the day to day, keep things running. Jason: Let's get into how this process works. Let's take a typical listener of the show, they're probably maybe a property manager, entrepreneur. Maybe they've got about 200 to 400 doors that they're managing, largely single family residential. They might have a property manager by now or two. They've got maybe somebody having maintenance coordination, and everybody on their team is telling them that they're maxed out on time, because that's what always happens. Every team member is maxed out on time, and they feel like I can't afford to hire anybody right now. Every appointment back on time, and then they call you up. Let's go through the process here of what it would look like maybe for one of these clients to start a conversation and work with you. Daniel: Sure, Jason. I don't want this to be a commercial for us. What I want to do is if you're listening right now, like what the steps that I'm going to go through are the steps to determine how to scale your business. Even though these are our steps, you can actually write these things down and go through the step by step process. Whether you hire us or not, this is the process that we know works, because we've done it 5000 times. The first step is just really assess your business. We do a strategy call with all of our clients where we do a one on one video conference, just like you and I are right now on video, and we go through things like who's on your team, what are your systems. When I say systems, like where are you putting all the information? Do you have a voice phone system so that when people call, you can transfer that number around. A lot of property managers do but some actually don't, and you can imagine during this Coronavirus what happens if you're a property manager and you had regular phones tied to an office that you can't go to anymore. What do you do? We're looking at who's on your team. We're looking at what your systems are, what tech do you have right now to operate, and then we're looking at what your processes are. Talk to me about what happens when you have to turn a tenant over, talk to me about what happens when you put a property out to lease, what's the step by step process. Who owns that process, and so we'll go through those three things in our first strategy call and really identify what's your highest value leverage, and we have this process and I liked it. I love thinking like this. Leverage can be just like compound interest. You can have compound leverage, meaning you as the business owner, or your managers, or the people on your staff can offload some of the not very valuable process based day to day repetitive stuff that you just don't need to do, and then you get two or four hours back of your day, and then you can take those hours and help build your business, and then you get a compounding effect with leverage. That's the next step is what do we need to do to start taking advantage of compound leverage? If you or your team gave up some stuff, how would you then drive revenue for your business or increase your value for your customers? What would you do to really scale and grow if you got half your day back? Jason: You do the strategy call. You figure out team systems attack, you're going over their processes. You're identifying the highest value leverage, I think it's a cool idea of compound leverage. And then what would you do next? What would you recommend next? Daniel: It's developing your plan. From that guy that owns half a billion dollars in property to the person who's got 100 homes, every single person has opportunity. It's standard blocking and tackling in business. We're doing a needs analysis for you. We're saying, okay, what do you need to do now, or who do you need to hire on your team now? It's always been developed with the plan moving forward. Any company like ours who says, oh, we'll just hire somebody for you tomorrow, be scared. Just be scared, because as an entrepreneur, leverage is your biggest swing, it's where you can get the most value for your dollars, you really have to be strategic about it. Step two is what's my plan? What systems do I need in order to do this virtual thing like what we're talking about going remote? Who do I need? What do I need? What conversations need to happen for my internal team? What planning do I need to make? Let's create an outcome statement. You could call step three crafting an outcome. Another thing that's unique about our businesses is we don't do job descriptions, areas of responsibility. I don't say anything wrong, there's nothing wrong with that, but what we do is we create outcomes. For instance, when I hire somebody, I'm hiring them to grow my revenue, I'm hiring them to save money, I'm hiring them to own an entire process for my business. We will help you craft and create a plan that really adds value to your business, so that you're getting a 3 or 4 times return on the $21,000 that you're going to pay us. Jason: You're crafting an outcome, you've developed the plan. You've done the strategy call, you develop the plan. You've crafted this outcome, and then what's the next step? Daniel: At that point, we know exactly what you want to accomplish. As a company, what we'll do is we'll take that outcome, we'll craft a series of interviews with somebody who has experience doing that thing. One challenge that we have in the outsourcing virtual assistant world is you can go on Upwork and hire somebody from India for $3 an hour, and that's what most people think about when they think of outcomes, or outsourcing, or virtual assistants. The thing is we're a virtual professional company. We are very strategic, we hire people who've done it before, who've been there before, who have served that outcome in the past. If you need somebody to answer the phones and be a prospector for you, or handle like client calls or tenant calls. We're going to find somebody who they've been 10 years doing that. They may not be property management, but they've been 10 years on the phone handling concerns and being a support mechanism for businesses similar or very like yours. The next step is to get three to five people right in front of you, so you can interview them, and you can choose somebody who is a great cultural fit plus an expertise and experience. Jason: I love the idea because I think cultural fit is the most important piece to look at first. A lot of people, well, they're great for this job. They look great on paper, they know how to do this job, but if it's not a good cultural fit, and I find as an entrepreneur if you don't feel comfortable around them… There's a great book by a really cool guy called Steve Sims called Bluefishing, and he talks about it in it. He calls it The Chug Test. He's like, what I want to go chug a beer with this person, if the answer's no, like then there's a disconnect, there's a problem. He uses the chug test with clients and different things. I think on our team, it's really important that everybody on our team exists to lower our pressure and noise. They exist to help move the business forward towards our outcomes. If there's resistance there, or discomfort there, and you're adding more and more team members like that, you're building a business you don't even feel like being involved in. It's very important, I think, for us as entrepreneurs to be really conscious of how we feel around our team members. Daniel: I can tell you I've hired people before and you have it too. If you're listening right now, it's interesting because I think this is a mistake that we make as entrepreneurs, we either hire people that we really like, or we hire people who know the job, and have expertise or experience doing the job. The reality is you need both. You've got to enjoy them, or at least feel like there's a fit in who you are and what you think, but they also have to be an expert at what they do, or a professional in our world. I can always tell when I'm talking to somebody who understands growing and scaling a business because they say what you just said, Jason. I appreciate it. Jason: I'll add, I think one of the biggest mistakes I've seen entrepreneurs make in trying to grow, or scale their business, or hire in their team is that the biggest mistake we make is that we try to hire somebody like our self a lot of times. We have a natural rapport for people that are like us. In NLP, Neuro-Linguistic Programming, they teach if you mirror or communicate at the same pace of these sorts of things, then you can build artificial rapport, or build real rapport perhaps really quickly. But, the challenge is we also tend to have a blind spot and hire people that are like us. A lot of times, the people that we need to do a certain job, or not the entrepreneurial, visionary, cowboy personality type, or whatever personality type you are as an entrepreneur. You might need a different personality type for that role, and sometimes we're trying to get people like us, which we don't even want to do those things, and we're trying to put them into that role. We need to find people that love and enjoy doing that particular thing that we don't want to do. Somewhat, they need to be different from us, but we need to be able to have a relationship with them that feels comfortable and feels good and that we value. We enjoy being around them or having them on our team. Daniel: Some things I'm going to add because I'm a nerd. I love people, I love growing and scaling. I think there's another possibility which is when values match. If you're very clear about what your values are as a human and a business, then you can be with somebody who maybe doesn't match up with your personality, because you feel like you at least have that commonality and value. Jason: You guys trust them. Daniel: Yeah, exactly. One of our values as a family is we take care of our people. I teach my kids, we don't give up. I naturally gravitate to people who care about people, and who have a bit of grit. Defining who you are as a person and defining who you are as a company, and having those values can help you in selecting somebody who you may not love hanging out with, but there's a value match, and they have an expertise match. Things just jive as a company. Jason: I find that's one of the biggest flaws that I see in property management businesses, probably any business. As entrepreneurs go from the stage of solopreneur to building a team, they build a team around them but they're operating like a solopreneur. They're trying to micromanage them. They're viewing these people as people that are supposed to be extensions of them in some way, and instead of building a team around them, of people that are taking things off of their plate and their jobs to lower their pressure and noise, they're hiring people for jobs, people for roles they think the business needs instead of what they need. In order to hire a team and build a team around you that is what you need as an entrepreneur, there needs to be clear values. Those need to be defined. That's one of the foundational things we coach clients through is getting clear on their business, why we get entrepreneurs personal why, how those connect, creating, figuring out their core values. If they don't have that, they don't have culture. Culture comes from the entrepreneur, and it's the business that is supposed to exist to serve the entrepreneurs needs in some way, and it's also supposed to exist to solve a problem in the marketplace. If they have those things in alignment, it significantly affects their ability to close deals and create trust. That speeds up rapidly. If they don't have that, then not only are they having challenges with that, but they also have a team around them that they have to micromanage, that they always feel like they have to tell what to do, and that are not believers in them or in the business because they've never given them anything you believe in. Having a team of believers feels great. You feel like you're Iron Man. You feel like you've got the super suit, you've got all these people supporting you. We had an issue this morning, there was a client that had a product or something and they were frustrated or upset because they didn't do any of the work and they didn't get the results, obviously. They didn't do some things that needed to be done, didn't show up any calls, that didn't do anything. We want this client to get a result. One of my team members is brilliant at coaching and helping clients just feel the negative energy and transform it. He's just a brilliant coach in that, and he talked to this client for like 60 minutes. The client was like, okay, I'm excited to work with you guys, I'm not going to sue you now. My approach probably would have been a little bit more hardline and hard nosed. I've got another team member, and he deals with the clients directly. He's super diplomatic, and I'd be like just do it this way. But he's like, why don't we say it like this? I'm like, that's better. Our team members protect us. They protect the business, especially if they believe in you. You always feel like you're being supported. God, it is so stressful. It's worse having a team than being a solopreneur if you have a team that isn't there to believe in you, to support you, and lower your pressure and noise, it's worse. Daniel: Agreed. Agreed. Jason: You want to talk about the next step? You've got this outcome crafted. I love that idea because ultimately what matters is results, the outcome is what matters. A lot of people will hire just to fill a wall. They're like, "We need this." They think that's the outcome, we solved it, we got this person. The real outcome is them helping the business achieve a goal, achieve the outcome, that's involved. I like the idea of crafting outcomes. What's next? Daniel: You know what? I have to follow it up with the outcome. I want clarity for your audience around why we do that, it's really important. When you have a person coming into it and you give him a job, they could do a job and not get a result. Jason: Absolutely. Daniel: That's the challenge. When you craft an outcome and there's massive clarity between you and the employee about what the outcome is, how to do the job is well informed. It's like, "Look, we are going to need you to book X, Y, and Z so that the clients have this result." They're like, "Well, I booked it." Yeah, you booked it but the client didn't get this result. This is a challenge. Outcomes just align the interests of the entrepreneur business owner and the employee so that the coaching conversations and the interactions are super, super, clean. There is some responsibility on the entrepreneur because I can't say, "Look, I want to fly to Pluto one day. I'm going to hire you to help me do that." That's just not a possibility right now. We have a lot of clients here who are like, "I don't know how to do that. I need to hire somebody. Daniel, can your virtual professionals help me?" I'm like, "Absolutely not, we can't help you. You don't even know how to do it. How would we know if you don't know?" The military has this great concept, "You can't give one unless you have one." They don't promote from outside. You're not going to get a two star General who used to work at Coca-Cola, they're not just going to make him the general. They have a process of rising through the ranks because that experience is so important. When our clients say, "Hey, I want to try this thing out." We're like, "Hey, we can't help you because we're not a try-it-out company. We're a professional organization that helps entrepreneurs get time freedom in their life and high caliber leverage." We're not going to experiment something with you, we're not going to try to create the shift that's going to go to pluto. We just don't know how to do that. That's some clarity on the outcome. Our next step after an outcome, we start interviewing. Then, it just moves into the launch which is why we have the Go Remote gift for your audience which is really timely because 50% of the world is now working at home. How do you do that? What are some of the technologies? How do I communicate? Jason, you're going to love this one. You and I, we've been working remote for a while. Most people would be on a chat platform, "Hey, I got to go to the bathroom." Nobody wants to see that, but we're all humans. What do you say? In our Go Remote guide we're going to give out, you type ‘bio.be right back.’ It's just a little bit better to see that on a chat platform in your corporate office, maybe 100 people. We've got a lot of tips, tricks, what's the right etiquette, and all that. After you interview, which is about a launch, that's probably where all the magic happens—the first 90 days. Jason: Yeah. I just saw on Facebook, it went viral, that all these people are working from home now. People are doing Zoom meetings and stuff. Some lady in her team of 20 or 30 people on a Zoom call forgot that her camera and her mic was still active while she was going to the bathroom. She said, "I'll just go to the bathroom," and took things with her. How awkward would that be? They need to understand some basic etiquette dealing with this new technology. Daniel: Sure. The fun thing about it, we're all humans. We all have kids, we all go to the bathroom, we all need a lunch break, and the rules are different now working at home. If you find yourself as a manager or an employee, you have to hyper communicate now because nobody can see if you're actually working. If you find yourself as a leader, you have to give people the benefit of the doubt, and really communicate, communicate, communicate. This is a time unprecedented in history. Nobody can plan for needing to take your entire team remote in a matter of seven days. It just can't be planned for. Having a little bit of grace as a leader, and also increasing your communication for your employees as a leader is really super important right now. Jason: Yeah. One of my coaches, Al Sharpton, gave me the idea that the best way was push communication rather than pull in which as a leader, you don't have to go to hold them, stand over their shoulder, and ask them, "Hey, did you do this? Are you doing this? Where's this at?" That's pull communication. You're always trying to get things from them but you set up systems in which the system, they're reporting, submitting things, and providing the information to you so you'll feel comfortable, and you don't feel the need to micromanage them that way. Daniel: That's a great point. Part of our onboarding is helping people understand what a start of the day report looks like and the end of the day report looks like. Each of our folks, 1300-ish, 1200 or 1300 people, are doing a start of day report where they're like, "Hey, these are the seven things I'm going to accomplish today." And an end of the day report, "Hey, those seven things I knocked out five of the seven. I did three others and these two are pushed to the next day." Again, if you've got those communication systems well-oiled, one of the things because we've been virtual for so long, we have a tech platform where all of our virtual professionals enter their time. They start their day and they do their start of the day report in our system. At the end of the day, they report in our system. It keeps tabs and track of our virtual professionals so that we have a system of knowing, "Hey, they took a break." They enter into a system, "I'm taking my lunch break," or, "I'm taking my 15 minute break." We have a system that reports to our clients everything they do throughout the day. Our clients can login to that portal and just see it. We've been doing that because that's normal. Now, everybody's like, "Hey, how do I do that?" That's another example. You just have a start and end of day report so your managers and your people have a clear way of communicating what their day looks like. Jason: Yeah. That same coach I mentioned, I once asked, "How do you know if somebody in your team is a believer?" He just said, "They're getting their work done. You've got the outcomes and the things they're supposed to be doing. They're reporting that they're getting these things done. The performance is there and you're getting the results that you want. You don't have to micromanage them, you don't have to live in fear. They're getting things done.” That's ultimately what you want. You want to pay money, you want them to help you make more of it. You want them to get it done. Strategic call, development plan, crafting an outcome, interviewing, and you said launch. The launch is then setting, you've got these systems in place. For your clients, they can login, they can see what the team members are doing. Clarifying question. There's two types, I've noticed, of assistant companies or outsourcing companies where they're like, "Hey, we'll answer your phones and we've got 50-100 people here in a call center. Some random ones are going to answer the call." Or, you've got Raymond who's assigned to your phone and he's going to do this, he's going to do this job for you. Maybe you could help the listeners understand what MyOutDesk and this relationship looks like. Daniel: Yeah, make sense. The first example is for major corporations. Our business is designed for SMBs—Small and Medium Sized Businesses. We think of us like an extension of your business. You get to interview them, you get to onboard them. They report everyday to you. It's like, "Hey, Jason. I'm here. Daniel's here. I'm ready to login. I'm going to rock it. Do you need anything today? Here's my start of the day report." Every single day, they login. We typically do Monday to Friday. Some of our clients will have multiple schedules depending on coverage needs. LIke over the weekend, late night calls, or emergency phone numbers. Just think of us like an extension of your business. We're giving you leverage. We're a real estate staffing company that is specific to property managers, brokers, busters, mortgage companies. Our whole world is around helping you grow and scale. After the launch, it goes through training. Most entrepreneurs who ever hired somebody realizes that in the beginning, I liked this X. If you've been watching us on video right now, I'm doing an X. In the beginning, it's low value because they're brandnew to your business. They don't know your culture, they don't know your customers, they don't know your value proposition. There's just not a lot of value in the first two weeks. At some point, the value goes up. The amount of time you have to spend with somebody is high in the beginning because you need to tell them everything that's in your brain. That all of this tribal knowledge that you need to impart and give to them. You might already have it documented, you might not. The first 90 days is really teaching them how you want them to serve the business. Communicating, giving around like, "Hey, here's how to use our system. Here's the training platform. Here's all the team members. Here's all the systems you need to learn." The first 90 days, it's just getting them up to speed. After that, typically our clients are recording a 60% or 70% savings with the exact same result they were getting prior. It's pretty awesome. Jason: Now, these team members, is it hourly or are you dedicating a monthly? Fulltime? How does this tend to work? Daniel: There's a couple of things. We're different. Obviously, they're virtual professionals so they're working full time. We're a subscription based business. You pay us, we pay them. We also carry their healthcare, their vacation time, and all their benefits. Most companies, they're making a very razor thin margin. Honestly, 90% of what you guys pay us, what our clients pay us, actually goes to benefits for their virtual professionals—benefits, vacation, health plan, we do conferences. We have an entire support system, team, tech, and all that kind of craziness. The point is they're our people. We're helping you get up to speed so they can help you grow and scale your business. At some point, we all become a team. Meaning, the company is here to support the virtual assistant, support the client, and everybody wins. That's what I love about working here. I'm going to help people find jobs in the Philippines, that's where we operate. I get to help businesses scale and grow. It's like the coolest place to be especially because we’ve helped over 5000 clients. I’ve gotten to see growth plans, org charts, systems. It's just so exciting every day to see so many Small and Medium Sized Businesses really see under the hood—profitability, who's on your team, what are some of your struggles. It's just really awesome for me and my team because every day, we're just serving our community. Jason: Love it. What are some of the frequently asked questions that people have that maybe we haven't covered? That somebody might be asking during the process? Daniel: A lot of people are like, "What does my commitment look like? How long do I have to stay in contract?" I'm a real estate guy and very firmly believed in value. We don't lock our people into any long term contracts. Every two weeks, every single one of my clients is voting with their credit card, honestly. Imagine if your business, 100%, runs on adding value for others. That’s how our business works. One of the missions that we've embraced at a really high level is our virtual assistants or virtual professionals need to be indispensable to your business. That's the guiding light, it has been from the beginning. If they come in and they take things off of your plate, you have all this time freedom, all of these opportunities to crack, and grow your business, then we just created an indispensability, it is irreplaceable. That's our whole mission as a company. We're really excited. Jason: Very cool. Do we talk about pricing? What is it going to cost? Typically, I know that the people listening, that's the big question. They're like, "Can I afford this? Would this make sense for me?" Most of them are thinking, "I can barely afford the team I have now. Is this something I can do to get to that next level? Maybe this will help me bridge that gap." For example, in property management, what I call the first sandtrap is the property manager that's maybe broken about 50 doors, they broke that barrier there. They're between 50-100 doors, they can't break the 100-door barrier. They're operating as a solopreneur, they can't afford to hire their first team member. Their pricing is too low, they've taken on too many crappy properties to manage. They've got a lot of leaks. They're trying to figure out, "How do I get ahead?" They can change some of these other things but one of the things is, "I need another person." Maybe you can touch on that and give people an idea of what they should budget for and make this work. Daniel: Step one, three, or five, is 100% free. If you're listening right now and you're like, "I need support," or, "I need help," I just want you to jump on our website, myoutdesk.com. Just go and schedule a consultation, go through the process. Worst case scenario, we walk away as buds. We high five each other, say, "Congratulations," and we walk away. Best case scenario, we find a way to make it a win-win where you're getting time freedom back into your world and you're able to focus on growing and scaling your business. If you decide to move forward with us, I always like to say, "Look, it's $400 a week. It's $400 and some change." It's not a super expensive value proposition in our world. It's $1747 a month, all in—benefits, vacation time. Like an entire team supporting you. All the systems and processes that we’ve developed over the years will help you. This Go Remote guide we're going to give out is 12 pages and 5000 clients later worth of really good this-is-how-you-run-a-remote-team guide. We're going to give everything away for free because that's what we do. Including our time, energy, and effort. We were just on the news last week. We basically gave out consultations to help business leaders, C-suite people, and entrepreneurs figure out how to go remote. There's this bottleneck in California. Everybody got shelter in place. California went down, people were scrambling. We helped our insurance broker, we helped our attorneys. We were just helping people figure this out and give them some confidence in this. If you're listening right now and you think this might be an avenue, I would just encourage you to reach out because it costs you nothing but your time. You'll walk away with a lot of value. Jason: Another major issue right now is the cash crunch. Every business is feeling a cash crunch. Cash is just shortened, people are laying people off. Companies are furloughing people, their team members can collect their employment insurance. This is a painful time period. They're having to figure out how to cut expenses. Some businesses will not be the same after this. This might be another option if they're having to layoff staff and they're not able to fund or keep cash flow positive. The big challenge then is how do we keep some sort of level of service? How do we still deliver to our clients if we cannot afford that overhead anymore, and we need to lower the overhead. For those listening, that's what you need to do right now, to cash crunch, and solve that problem. If you can be healthy there, then you can get on some higher level problems to deal with like how do we keep the [...] economy or what not. You've got to solve the immediate cash crunch issue. That might be an SBA loan, that might be some of these things coming out. Maybe having a conversation with your team might help facilitate that. Daniel: We have a good friend of mine who owns a recruiting firm. One of her right hand women has a 1 year old and a 3 year old. They're all at home. She needs support now, not tomorrow, because she's contractually obligated to add value to her clients. If she doesn't, they have the opportunity to walk away and cancel. We're seeing a big uptake in people who are like, "Hey, we're having staffing issues right now. I'm not sure. We need support in X, Y, and Z.” We're happy to go through that process with somebody and say, "We can help you here," or, "No, this isn't what we specialize in but these people are your best option." There's a lot of companies like ours. There's lots of resources out there where the SBA thing, that's one of our free gifts in the Go Remote right now. When we give that away, we have a guide to getting the SBA disaster loan there. We have a guide for what's happening with the taxes right now. We have a guide for what you are saying to your clients right now in this weird, uncertain time. You can't say you want to buy or sell, this is an odd time to be a sales person but it's a great time to have conversations, ask questions, and connect people on a human to human basis. We put together a little guide for people in that space. We should give it away. What do you think, Jason? Jason: Let's do it. How do we get it? Daniel: All you have to do is text MOD—MyOutDesk—MOD to 31996. Anybody that wants it can go there. You'll get a link to our Go Remote stuff, all those free guides are down there. Here's the other thing, normally, you understand marketing, we date our content. Normally, we help people register and do a bunch of stuff so that we know who they are. Because of this disaster and because of everything that's happening in the world, when you text MOD to 31996, we're giving that stuff in a Word format. Meaning, you can take the Go Remote guide, put your logo on it, and give it away to your customers and clients. You can put your logo on our disaster recovery plan. We have a CEO mindset conversation. It's time to adapt your value proposition for your customers because we're in a new world right now. All that stuff is given away free because we're all in this together. The biggest cure for the economy right now is businesses and entrepreneurs staying productive. Jason: Right. I'm texting it right now so I can check it out. It's 31996 and I just do MOD. Daniel: That's right. I can't wait to see Jason from across my phone. It's going to be awesome. There we go. Boom! "MyOutDesk is your partner in going remote!" That's exactly it, brother. Right there. Here's the thing, we were on TV. I think it's an important message. I think we can wrap it up with your audience with this one thing. As entrepreneurs, as business leaders, it is our job to stay productive. It's our civic duty right now. Our economy is going to be challenged. The people at the bottom who have the normal middle class jobs, they're going to go through pain. As a leader in my community, my job is to help everybody I can stay as productive as possible. That's what's going to shift, that's what's going to change this world. That's why we put together a guide. That's why we're giving it up free. I hope it's valuable to you guys, your audience, and Jason—even you guys. Jason: Awesome. I just did a training just last week. Property management and property managers are going to be even more critical during this time than ever before. This is an opportunity for property managers to plant seeds for the future. I taught a concept called Care ROI. Right now may not be the time to focus on financial ROI but Care ROI will lead to that in the future as things shift. In turn, people will remember. Because emotions are heightened right now, anything that we do, and it actually takes a communication that we do as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, will be magnified times 10 in the mind of our customers or consumers because emotion is what creates memory. It's the difference between what you were doing the day before 9/11 or the day on 9/11. People's memories are very different because of the emotions attached. Right now, you have the opportunity to get a 10x ROI on positive things that you do out to your customers, to your audience, and your potential clients. That is massive.  Everyone listening, make sure you checkout the training that I did and leverage that Care ROI. I want to thank you for coming on and doing this even though it's crazy right now. I honor you for putting out this awesome guide to help people out. That's awesome. I look forward to having some more conversations with you in the future, Daniel. Daniel: Jason, thanks for your time, man. We really appreciate you today. Jason: I'll say one more thing, Everybody, businesses exist to solve a problem. That's why businesses exist. If the business is not solving a problem, it's taking people's money and not delivering results. There's no higher purpose or cause that entrepreneurs can do right now than to solve people's problems and to also make money. Making money helps you help the economy, it helps everybody. It helps you help your team. Find ways to help people solve their problems and to make money. I don't think there's anything wrong. Some people try to guilt and shame right now. They're the people that are just taking from the system, don't worry about them. The other thing I'll point out is if you're an entrepreneur, you don't like your business, you've been looking for your out. You're an entrepreneur, this is your perfect out. This is the perfect opportunity to choose out of your business and just not do it anymore. You have the perfect excuse. For the rest of us that are driven, that we’re passionate about what we do, if you are a property management entrepreneur, you're still wanting to grow, still wanting to be part of the community, check us out at doorgrowclub.com. Get inside our Facebook group community there. There's lots of helpful things going around, property management trying to solve problems for each other, and figure out what to do with things. Make sure to have a conversation with us at DoorGrow. Our goal right now is to plant those Care seeds, ROI as well, and help you out in any way that we can. Check us out at doorgrow.com. Daniel, thanks again for coming and hanging out. Daniel: It's been my pleasure. Jason: All right. We'll let you go. Everyone check out his website. It is myoutdesk.com. Make sure to do the text message thing. Until next time, everybody. To our mutual growth. Bye, everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge in getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life. Always use the JS Compressor to shrink before you publish a website.

Part 2-2: How Understanding My Husband’s Pornography Consumption Led to Healthy Dialogue and HealingLeanne is a wife of 31 years. She has 2 children who are both married. She is the grandmother of one. She is a retired preschool teacher of 17 years. She is enjoying her season of time with her husband as an empty nester.**Note from Leanne, please read prior to listening: I think there might be some confusion in our story for some people. Some people I think believe that we started to view pornography together as a couple. That is not what happened at all. That day that I sat down with him and opened my heart to understand what was driving him to look was the last day that he viewed it. So I just want to clarify that.When my husband and I started the journey of turning towards each other in all of the aspects of our lives and began to create a truly intimate marriage, the “need” for my husband to turn to porn left him. And my “need” to constantly check up on him left me. And I was healed from being stuck in betrayal trauma. The connection that we made in turning towards one another to proactively create what we really wanted for our marriage was the answer to porn not being an issue for either of us from that point forward. Turning towards each other healed both of us.**Transcript:0:00:04 VO: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel in this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:23 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. I'm really excited today. We get to have Leanne back on with us. We get to explore some of the topic set we addressed in the previous podcast in a little bit more depth and I'm excited and thankful that you Leanne are willing to come back on and explore these topics further with us. There is a lot of excitement with people who listen to your podcast and we're just craving more and this is a very private and very vulnerable experience for you, so I really appreciate you coming on and being willing to explore some of these topics in depth. There's clearly a need and it's moved a lot of people to hear your story. So, let's turn it over to you. Where do you wanna start? What do you feel from the people who've listened to your podcast and the comments that have been made? Where do you feel it's important to start?0:01:19 Leanne: Well, first off, thank you for having me back. I'm excited to be back on here and like you say, to go over more in-depth of my journey and how I got to where I am today, but basically I just wanna start off with my struggles, like what my struggles were with my sexuality and what was holding me back for years and years. I struggled for probably... We were married for 31 years and I probably struggled for 25 of those years, overcoming some hurdles and issues that I had in order to be able to step into my sexuality. So, basically, that's just what I wanna share with everyone today is how I overcame. What those struggles were and how I worked through them, how I overcame them, how I was able to think differently. I think so often when we try to improve our sexuality, like we come to it from... Sex, like we try to... What sex acts can improve my sexuality, what things can I be doing in the bedroom to make me like it more. And I think too often we're just chasing after sex acts when really, especially for women, our biggest sex organ truly is our brain.0:02:42 Leanne: And one of the things I learned... Just what I've heard about, I haven't read any of her books, Emily Nagoski. I've never read any of her books but I've heard people explain about her brakes and accelerators and I realized that for years and years as... 'Cause I wanted to want sex, I wanted to like sex. I did have that desire, all through the years of my marriage, I just could not figure out how to get there. And so, I would try different things over the years but what I realized with brakes and accelerators was even though I was trying to push on the gas and go forward and figure it out, I was standing on the brakes. I had so many issues piled up that I just didn't have my foot on the brake, I was standing hard on the brake. And so that was preventing me to make any forward movement at all in the area of intimacy, does that make sense?0:03:38 Daniel: It does and for those who aren't familiar with Emily's book it's "Come as You Are", great book, very very insightful, gets into exactly what you're talking about, the science and the process our brains go through in experiencing sexual arousal. Tell us a little bit more though. What do you mean you're standing on the brake? What did that look like for you? What were you doing or not doing?0:04:01 Leanne: For me, standing on the brakes, I guess, meant for me just any time I would try to make any forward progress in my marriage. One of the issues that I want... I'll talk. Some of these issues that were holding me back, they would just come forward to the surface and then I would be slamming on that brake again. And so, yeah, I guess going forward, talking here, we'll just start talking about some of those things that kept me with my foot on the brake.0:04:27 Daniel: Yeah, let's start by that.0:04:29 Leanne: Okay, so first off, when I finally decided that I really wanted to start working on my sexuality, one day I came across a little meme on Facebook and it broke down the word intimacy and I'm sure people have seen this before, but it broke it down to me saying, "Into me see". And I break it down to "into me you see." And what that means to me is, for me, the goal in marriage is to have a desire to know your partner on a very deep level and then to also allow your partner to know you on that very deep level. And for me that means knowing your partner's heart, their mind, their spirit, their body, and then letting them also know your heart, your mind, your spirit, your body. And so I really wanted that, that was the goal of me being able to work on my sexuality, was I wanted all of that, I wanted all that intimacy had to offer, and so that was the driving force that moved me forward to really working on my sexuality. But first, the first thing I think that I had to figure out was in order to be intimate on a sexual level, and to have true intimacy in a marriage, you really need to work on all the levels of intimacy in your marriage, and that means working on the psychological intimacy in your marriage which means honesty, loyalty, trust and commitment. I feel like that is the foundation to your marriage, is those four things; honesty, loyalty, trust and commitment.0:06:09 Leanne: And then the other areas are verbal, emotional, intellectual, spiritual, physical, and then I've also added recreational. But in order to really be able to work on that physical level, the other levels had to also be being worked on. It's not just enough to say, "I want a wonderful intimate life, intimate sexual life." I feel like it was important in my marriage to work on all the levels. And once my husband and I started to work on all those levels of intimacy within our marriage, then it was easier to work on the physical intimacy part. I think so often we hear that women are more emotional and for me that's definitely true. And so I had to feel like things were being worked on outside of the bedroom in order for me to also be working on things inside of the bedroom.0:06:57 Daniel: Before we get there and maybe you're gonna address this, but what did you have to do yourself? In the previous podcast and online you've talked a lot about how you have to face your own trauma, you have to face your own hold-ups around this before you can engage and improve your relationship together. That's a very difficult place for people who especially have experienced trauma and mental health issues around intimacy. How did you get there? What did you do to... We already discovered in the previous podcast that you do have a level of insight that I think is a little higher than most people, but regardless, what did you do to recognize, "Okay, I need to address this, this is my issue that I need to overcome." And what steps did you take?0:07:50 Leanne: I honestly think the thing that really hit me the hardest when I started to really face myself was one day I was... It was the very, very first podcast that I listened to from Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, and I can't even remember where... I know it was some LDS site, like LDS Living or something and I've tried to find it and I haven't been able to just find it since, but she talks in that podcast about... We really need to bring our very best self to our partners every day. Like, we need to take a good long look at ourselves and ask ourselves, would we wanna be married to ourselves? "Would I wanna be married to someone like me?" And when I really started to look hard at myself and answer that question, the answer was no. I would not wanna be married to me, I was not nice because of some of the anxieties that I faced, I gave myself permission to act badly towards my husband either in coming from a place of I'm trying to protect myself or then also coming through a place of excusing my anxieties and saying, "I can't help it. This is just how I soothe myself, it's how I soothe my anxieties, is to control everything that's around me."0:09:09 Leanne: And so, it really hit me hard when I listened to that podcast when she said, "We, we need to bring our best self to our spouse, every day." And I feel like my husband, for the most part, did bring his best self to me every day. He is so kind and very caring and very patient. And I realized that I wasn't giving the same.0:09:32 Daniel: Was there a point, and maybe I'm making some assumptions here, that you viewed him as the broken one with the issues around pornography and maybe his behavior in the bedroom? Did you view him as the broken one and then have this epiphany like, "Oh, my goodness. I'm the one who's struggling here."0:09:49 Leanne: It doesn't really played a role, it played a role in the bedroom, it played a role just because I had my foot so hard on the brakes that I... "He's just using my body because of what he's seen."0:10:03 Daniel: Yes, exactly, thank you for clarifying. And that's what I was alluding to.0:10:07 Leanne: Yeah, so some of the struggles within the actual sexual realm of things, I could blame some of them on him but I also knew what was going on in my own head, surrounding some of the struggles that I had, and so then I just realized I needed to work on 'em.0:10:32 Daniel: Yeah, again, so you had that level of insight where you were able to acknowledge, and I think for the most part, most people are like that. Specifically women. I think there is that level, "Okay, I know there's an issue here with me too, but the pain and the difficulties in the relationship make it difficult to focus on that inward self because you see other problems in the relationship that you want to address or think are bigger and contributing to that, in this case maybe the pornography, it's tempting to say, "My husband's behavior is what's triggering me and until he fixes it, I can't fix myself." But you're seeing that or at least at this point you're saying, "No, I gotta address myself too."0:11:17 Leanne: Mm-hmm. 'Cause I knew it was part of it, but I knew it was definitely not all of it, so I finally had to just face myself, "I need to figure this out." So then some of the things that I struggled with, like the first one being "the good girl syndrome" and I talked about that the other day. I think it's so hard, and not in just LDS relationships, but also I've heard lately more just in Christian relationships, in religions that really stifle sexuality or have such a strong belief around waiting 'til you're married. So, we get this message growing up that it's a bad thing like, "We don't do this, it's bad." And then all of a sudden when you're married, it's okay, it's fine now. It's really, really hard to change gears for a lot of women, and not just women, but for some men too, it's really hard to all of a sudden think it's okay. So, I had to get over that good girl syndrome and just really come to embrace the fact that I was created to be a sexual being as well as a emotional, and intellectual, and spiritual being, I was also created to be a sexual being.0:12:28 Leanne: And, I think, so often growing up and nobody talking to us when we're teenagers of how to embrace our sexuality we try to repress it. And the other thing I struggled with and I talked about this on the last podcast, was I struggled to be sexual and spiritual within the same body, that didn't make sense to me of how to marry the two. And so the danger is in that though was I was completely shutting down my sexuality because I thought that my spiritual self should learn how to control the physical self. And by doing that it's like you're cutting off your arm, like when you shut down, you're shutting down a part of who you are and it's...0:13:12 Daniel: Let me pause you right there for a second 'cause that's I think an important statement there, and I wanna make sure that the listeners understand what you just said. Tell us a little bit more about what it means, or at least what your paradigm was at the time that you're thinking the spiritual self should, would you say control my sexual behavior or my sexual desire, and you couldn't marry 'em together, what were you... Tell us a little bit more about what that meant to you at the time?0:13:39 Leanne: I feel like it meant that if I... We hear that about our carnal selves and that we need to learn, control our carnal selves, and the natural man is an enemy to God. And so I think I was equating that my sexual part of myself was carnal, it was dirty, it was naughty, it was wanting things that it shouldn't want, and so...0:14:06 Daniel: And that's why you were shutting it down, is...0:14:09 Leanne: Mm-hmm.0:14:10 Daniel: The experience you're having spiritually, so what was that? Did you feel like it was the spirit telling that this was inappropriate, that this was dirty, this shouldn't be pursued? And if you did, how do you view that insight now? Do you still look at that and say, "Yes, that was a spirit telling me that?" Or how do you reconcile that now?0:14:31 Leanne: No, I don't believe that was the spirit at all. I think that was fear, I think it was fear, I think it was guilt, it was shame, it was those. It was those feelings. They were very negative and I don't think that's how the spirit works.0:14:45 Daniel: Yeah, and it's interesting though, because this is not the first time I've heard this. And I've had many, many people come in and say, "This isn't right, the spirit's telling me it isn't." But typically, and who am I? I can't tell somebody that they're not feeling the Spirit, but this is usually what I'm discovering, is it's fear. How would you guide people who are trying to sort that out to distinguish between the Spirit and the fear or guilt that they're feeling around it, and why are they confusing the two? Kind of a bunch of questions there, but I guess, how would somebody distinguish that? What did you do to identify that really wasn't the spirit, that was actually fear and guilt?0:15:33 Leanne: When I finally decided that I was gonna work on my sexuality and really open up my perceptions, and my thinking around it, and just become more open in my thinking, very quickly when I started to work on things with my husband there was a difference. Our relationship just grew so quickly, whereas before there was just... It was a hindrance to our relationship, progress was not being made. The guilt was there that I should not feel that way towards my husband, it's a beautiful thing and if there's guilt for even trying to become closer, I mean that's not right. That's not what our heavenly father wants for us, He wants us to be close, very, very close in that relationship. And so, once I just decided, "I'm not gonna feel these feelings of guilt anymore. I'm not gonna allow them into my mind," and started to work on things with my husband, very, very quickly things moved along at a really beautiful pace, really beautiful, wonderful things were happening within my marriage.0:16:51 Daniel: Are you willing or comfortable with sharing any details, experiences around that?0:16:58 Leanne: Well one thing, and I kinda have details interwoven when I talk about some of my struggles. So there's the one struggle that I had of giving and receiving. Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife talks about this a lot. Truly being able to receive from your partner and you truly being able to give to your partner. I think, so often as women, we have a hard time receiving because we're always on the giving and the serving end of the doing and the taking care of kids, we have a really hard time receiving sometimes. And so the very first time that I had really learned how to calm my anxieties down in the bedroom, and there was one particular time when we were being intimate, and I for the first time ever I felt on a very deep level of how much my husband was giving to me, like giving his whole self to me, his heart, his spirit, his mind, his body, and I just had tears just streaming down my face because I felt like his goodness was pouring into me, and afterwards I was like, "I felt that. I felt your generosity towards me. I felt your love and your goodness," and he said, "I've been trying to love you that way for 27 years but you shut me down."0:18:25 Leanne: I was just stuck in a place of, my mind was just so closed because of the guilt that I couldn't even open up to begin to accept what he was trying to offer me through his sexuality.0:18:36 Daniel: What an amazing experience. He was able to tell you that in those words is, "You're were shutting me down?"0:18:42 Leanne: Mm-hmm. Yup.0:18:43 Daniel: It sounds like maybe you were ready and a place to hear that. I don't know, if I recommend every husband say that to their to their spouse, but...0:18:52 Leanne: I definitely, yes, I definitely was in a place to hear that.0:18:55 Daniel: That's wonderful, and you were recognizing how much love he was giving to you. So it sounds like you were ready to hear that. What a wonderful experience.0:19:02 Leanne: And the other thing on that other end, so then the giving part, I think, that something that can become problematic and it was for me, is we...0:19:13 Leanne: Dr. Jennifer, she talks about this and she got this idea from David Schnarch. And it's where we want to belong to ourselves, like the desire to belong to ourselves is even stronger than the desire to receive sexual pleasure. And so, if we as women or anybody if you don't step into your sexuality and really embrace it and own it and want to share it with another person, then you're constantly gonna be feeling like your partner is taking it from you, 'cause you're not freely giving it and so you're gonna... Over time, I became very resentful because I felt like my husband was constantly taking from me and when I really stepped into my sexuality and had the strong desire to share it with my husband, it made all the difference in the world for me, I never feel like he's taking from me anymore 'cause I've owned it, I've owned that sexuality, it is mine, and it's mine to share. So those feelings completely went away. And so the resentful feelings went away, all that went away because my sexuality now belongs to me.0:20:17 Daniel: If you don't mind, I wanna emphasize that point that is so, so critical in the process. And I love how you describe it when you're rejecting your spouse, you're setting him up for failure and you're gonna always feel like he's taking something away from you or burdening you. And I see that dynamic over and over and over again, where the spouse, the wife in this case, will set certain expectations, until those expectations are met there's no physical intimacy, whatever those expectations may be, and it sets the partner up for failure because you can't ever really live up to those expectations. Whatever they be, you may be able to do it, but then it becomes a checklist and it's anything but intimate. And that creates that cycle downward that spiral downward because, so well said, because it feels like now it becomes this exchange of tasks and a burden, it does not create the intimacy. So that is so hard to break, but then what's reinforcing it is we're thinking, "Well, we're having this negative experience in our sexual dynamic relationship because he isn't doing his part." It becomes very deflective, and so being able to look at this and say, "Open up to it." And then it's connecting, it's beautiful.0:21:39 Daniel: And then you have these experiences. Now, not everybody's gonna have this, there's... In fact, I'm very curious, I would love to know at least your perspective what your husband was going through? He's been... He was giving and giving and giving for 27 years. That's endurance in... I would have to say, I know very few men who are able to maintain that level of giving for so long without becoming resentful, lost in their own sexuality. What do you think, if your husband wouldn't mind you sharing, what he was able to do to embrace that and continue patiently giving? And I'm not assuming he never had an issue of maybe resentment or hurt feelings. We're human beings, right? What do you think allowed him to continue to be loving and patient over almost three decades?0:22:33 Leanne: It makes me a little weepy. He just had a very, very strong love for me. So it sounds like cheesy in a way to be like, "It's because he loves me, that's why he was able to endure it all." But that really was it, he was so in love with me, and that's not to say that there weren't hard times, there were times when things were rough and he would weep and he would say, "You hurt me deeply, you're not nice, and you hurt me deeply." But it was because he loved me so immensely that he endured it, and then also when he prayed to know whether he should marry me or not the answer that he got was yes and take care of her. And he understood how broken I was from the trauma that I received as a child and a teenager. He understood that he knew how broken I was and I think also he knew I was trying. I did want to want it and I expressed that often. It's not that I was the type of person that I was like, "I hate it, don't talk to me about it. I don't want anything to do with it." I wasn't that type of a person, I was the type of person that I would longing to want it, I just didn't know how to get there. And so he was very patient with me all those years and he just loved me through it and felt like he made that promise to my father that he would take care of me.0:24:07 Daniel: What would you say to men who... I think there's a lot of men who have the level of love that your husband has for you, but the years have taken such a toll on them in their relationship and they're experiencing this, their wife not wanting you can't even bring up sex anymore, you can't talk about it. It's become very isolating even to suggest therapy or some sort of intervention around sex is just yet another manipulation or selfish desire to have more sex. What are your thoughts around encouraging those husbands to support their wives who are disconnected from this? Who aren't having that level of insight and they're starting experience that bitterness, any thoughts? They're not losing the love but they're they're lost themselves. It's been such a lonely experience that they don't know what to do. Do you recommend how husbands can support their wives and helping them understand their sexuality better?0:25:06 Leanne: That's a situation that really breaks my heart and I wish I could sit down with those wives and have a conversation with them because I feel like in a marriage where the wives have completely set down is a very difficult place to be for men. And my heart really aches for them.0:25:26 Leanne: I know that I've listened to a couple of podcasts by Jennifer Finlayson's life. Where she addresses that. And she talks about how a husband needs to sit down with his wife and say, "This is not okay for me, I need to feel loved in this way. And we have created this dynamic within our marriage to where we won't even talk about it and that's just not okay for me anymore. I'm suffering and our marriage is suffering and I believe you're suffering as well. And something needs to change." I'm not an expert to speak on that. But I feel like from things I've heard from Jennifer, she is an expert and has helped in that area. She talks a lot about how we each collude in the kind of marriage that we have. And I think that oftentimes in a marriage if we're not speaking up, in a loving way, and just kind of claiming what our desires are and what our needs are, if we're not speaking up about those then we are colluding in the type of marriage that we are creating.0:26:28 Daniel: I like that idea in what you're saying there. First of all, I think what you're saying is very helpful. I think a lot of women appreciate hearing that. That you feel sad that they're in those difficult, difficult places, where they don't even... To even think about sex, would just drain them and frustrate them. And somehow getting out of that.0:26:50 Daniel: But what I also liked is, how to have that discussion. I think there's so much shame for men. There's this, I don't know if it's completely acceptable. But it tends to be more acceptable to not want to have sex and so when the higher desire partner wants to have better sex or more connecting sex, it's viewed as selfish, carnal. And so the man and the relationship is experiencing these feelings of guilt, embarrassment. Yes, I wanna have more sex, I wanna have this type of sex. And so they're shutting themselves down, before they even have that conversation with their wife. But I like how you said that when you can frame it, put all other frustrations aside.0:27:32 Daniel: A lot of times this conversation happens in connection to so many things kids, busy life, stresses and then we throw in, "Well we're not even having sex anymore." or "That's all you want." But to be able to have that dedicated conversation and say, "Sweetheart, I love you and I want this area of our life to be better." and I keep it within that context, I think, can set each other up for success and to be able to address those issues better. I really like that insight there.0:28:01 Leanne: And the reason why I wish I could sit down and talk to the wives is, I think we as wives, really don't understand how that oftentimes, not in every marriage, but statistically are more regularly that a husband, the way he gives love and receives love is through physical intimacy. He feels it on a very deep level. And we as wives do not understand that. I think society has conditioned us to believe that men are just sex pots and that's all they want is sex. They just wanna use women's bodies to get their own physical pleasure and I don't think that's true at all. I mean, it can be true for some people, that they're selfish and they use their sexuality in selfish ways. But I really believe for the most part that men, that's how they are wired, is to love deeply and give love deeply, to feel love deeply and give love deeply through their sexuality.0:29:01 Leanne: And when I grew to really understand that, that's what changed for me. A big thing in the bedroom like that night when I felt the goodness coming from him, it's because I wasn't just being like yes my husband is having sex with me. I felt on a deep level what he was offering to me from every fiber of his being. When you can receive that as a woman, it is amazing and beautiful. And so I wish women could understand it and calm down their anxiety surrounding their husband sexuality and stop putting a label on what it is that they're wanting from... And open up their heart to the fact that your husband just wants to really love you deeply. That helped for me a lot.0:29:45 Daniel: I love this so much because one of my mentors in this field has often said, "Who is your sexual role model?" And I think that's one of the biggest obstacles that we face both men and women in relationships is, you're doing something tremendous for women right now, you're providing, whether you like it or not, you're providing a healthy role model, and the journey you took to get there. It's one thing to hear you can have an amazing sex life, but what does that really mean when all your definition right now is around sex, your sexual relationship is shame, pain and bearable at times. What is it to even mean when we say a thriving healthy sex life?0:30:30 Daniel: I think, a lot of people think... Oh, just more sex. They don't understand what you're actually saying here is a beautiful, profound connection. Which is exactly what they're desiring and is being hindered because they can't see that. But the same thing for men, and unfortunately I think a lot of men get into this place that thinking just like women, sex is bad, but yet they have these urges and desires, and they don't know how to manage them. And then they start to view them cells in the way that they've been told to view themselves.0:31:02 Daniel: It's bad, it's dirty, they take on that definition so they don't even engage in the conversation. And I'll tell you from personal experience because we don't have sexual role models and we don't understand what healthy sex looks like. Which is a variety of experiences, based on couples personalities, cultures and their relationship with the Lord. I didn't know what I wanted. And so it was a frustrating conversation to have, because even though my wife was willing to listen and not just willing, but embracing it. I didn't know what to say because I didn't know what I, I think I knew what I wanted in a relationship, in a sexual relationship. But then I had to come to the understanding to be able to explain, you know what, this is what I'm curious about, I'm wondering if this will work well for me.0:31:49 Daniel: And for you, let's reevaluate because I think we finally have this big conversation, this vulnerable conversation where you're now in a place to have that conversation and your husband is, "What do I say? I just want better sex. And this is how I think we're gonna get there and then we hold to that." It's like, "You don't want that? Well, you know what? I just discovered what I wanted in the relationship was to be able to explore that with you. It really had little to do with the actual physical act but now I feel safe." I could tell you, I'm really curious about this and I'm wondering if this will help in our relationship and not be shut down or viewed as selfish or promiscuous or dirty. I know in my personal experience that allowed me to at least redefine what a sexual relationship looked like because I really didn't know, I had no idea. And where do you begin with that? Even when your wife is willing to have that discussion, I think it's a daunting and scary experience but allowing yourself to reevaluate, come back and discuss, and I think that's been the most bonding opportunities with my wife is just being able to feel like we can openly discuss it. What's your experience around that? Or does that resonate with you?0:33:03 Leanne: Yeah, when I was starting to work through all these, all the things that like the breaks that I had on, like the Good Girl Syndrome, marrying of the spiritual and sexual and just all that. When I was really starting to work through those and be able to push each one aside as I work through. We started practicing, we had sex every day, every single day for probably about six weeks and it really was a learning, and a growing, and a discovery time for the two of us. Just like what does this look like? What does this sexual relationship between the two of us? What's it gonna look like? And so, we practiced and try things and for six weeks, every single day, and it was a great learning experience for both of us, where we both felt free to express our desires and discover each other in a sexual way.0:34:03 Daniel: What made you think of that? I mean was that just something that you randomly thought of says, "Hey, let's do this every day for six weeks and see what happens." Or where did you get that idea from?0:34:13 Leanne: We just started practicing and it just happened. [chuckle] It is not, but that's okay. And it's funny and I have to say this. So, just recently in general conference the one man gave the talk about reading the Scripture and suddenly he's like, "Every day, every day, every day." And my husband and I left because when we were practicing, when we would start again my husband was like joking he got, "Every day, every day, every day." And so that just made us laugh so much when it came up on general conference and we looked at each other 'cause it's just kind of something cute that you would say to me as we were practicing, but we never like said, "Here's the timeframe, we're gonna do this for six weeks. Is just happened that I think we were just both excited that we were working on it, that we were discovering each other, it was exciting for us.0:35:05 Daniel: You took away in that strategy, if we called this pursuer and avoider dynamic where he's pursuing and you're avoiding and you created as a both come together, you're treating each other as equals. I think that's crucial, I think there's this... As we engage into this discovery mode, we pay a little bit more tension like you've been cautioning people to do, to put aside your fears, but there's still that fear there that they want to respect and they don't jump in like that. And I think that's really important, I think we're preparing a little too much emotionally to go into sex and instead view it as, "Let's learn, let's try this, let's schedule it, let's at least plan for it in some way and make it a mutual goal." And that eliminates a lack of predictability, right now, at least at that point in your relationship, what I'm hearing is there's so much unpredictability and there's so much harder and discovery that need to happen that you didn't wanna give heed to that ambiguity anymore. You said, "Let's do this every day. Let's create some predictability, let's be a team on this and come together." Am I hearing you right?0:36:16 Leanne: Mm-hmm. And one thing I wanna say too about that pursuer and... I, a couple of years before that, one thing that we did that helps us transition then 'cause like I said I did want to want sex. I did try different things throughout our marriage to figure things out. But one thing that was helpful for me is Laura Brotherson does talk about how sometimes husbands and wives can create anxiety within each other and by the husband-wife, she calls it the Hungry Dog Syndrome where the husband like it's been a while since he's had sex and he wants it, and he's requesting it and his wife doesn't want it, and so we're creating this hungry dog, she calls it syndrome, where he's chasing after her and looking for any cues that she's throwing him that he might get lucky that night.0:37:09 Daniel: Oh, yeah.0:37:10 Leanne: And he gets irritable and cranky because he's not getting his need's man and he's not being able to be close to his wife in the way that he wants, and so he gets cranky but the more he pursues her and chases after her, the more anxiety is created in her and so she is the avoiding wife, she will avoid touch, she will avoid flirting, she'll avoid any flirty looks from him, because she doesn't wanna send him a message in any way, shape, or form that he might get lucky. And so you're creating this anxiety within each other outside of the bedroom where he's chasing it, she's running all the time. And so, I came to my husband one day and I just came up with this on my own, I sat down with him and I said, "Okay, I need to learn to not run from you, any time you go to hug me or touch me." If I'm at the kitchen sink and he comes up and fondles me, I would elbow him like, "Stop, you always have to be touching me." I can't even begin to tell you how many times I said, "Can you not just love me for my brain? Does it always have to be about my body?" I've said that so many times to him.0:38:12 Leanne: Why does it always have to be about my body? And the sad thing is he just wanted to be affectionate with me, he just wanted to love me, he just wanted to come and connect with me. But I always perceived it as, "This is sexual, so stop." So anyway, I sat down with him and I said, "I need to learn to stop running," and so at that time, what I said was, "Can we please schedule sex? How many days a week would you like to have sex?" And so we negotiated how many days that would be and we said, "Okay," then I said, "Which days are those?" And so we decided upon which two days of the week those were gonna be. And I said, "Okay, I promise you that on those two days I will say yes, we will have sex." But on the other days outside of the bedroom or even inside the bedroom, no matter how much touch we give each other you cannot ask me for sex. But I need to learn to become comfortable kissing you, embracing you, allowing you to touch me in those fondling ways, and I need to learn to be able to calm my anxieties down around those types of touches. And I said, "Even if we full-on make-out on the couch, you cannot ask me for sex if it's a non-sex day," so that I can learn to be comfortable with touch, with your touch, with your wanting to be just intimate with me just through touch that's not sexual in nature.0:39:34 Daniel: I can't tell you how successful that strategy is. Too many people feel like, "Well that's gonna kill the mood and the desire by scheduling. And I will even depending on the relationship, tell them to schedule specifically when you're gonna do it, 9 o'clock at night, 8 o'clock in the morning, otherwise we find we push it out, but not everybody has to do that. Like your approach generally saying, "Tuesdays and Thursdays, for example, are our sex days and it will happen that day," that allows us to put aside our anxieties. Okay, I'm not gonna engage 'cause as you said, "This sexual dynamic becomes a pursuer and an avoider experience where the man is looking for every clue, looking for all those micro expressions. Is this a flirt or is she just being nice with me? Can I go in for a loving touch? And then it feels like groping, it feels like inappropriate, it feels like objecting, and then it shuts down the loving engagement that the the husband is trying to express. But by setting up a specific time we're able to put those anxieties aside. Okay, I don't have to worry about being grabbed today, randomly, or I don't have to worry about constantly looking at my wife.0:40:41 Daniel: Is this the right time? Is she giving me a clue? We put all that stress aside, so we've been able to eliminate that stress. We've already got too much stress in our relationship, and then to be able to engage, and follow through with that. And a lot of couples feel like that kills the romance. And so the first question I ask is, "Are you having romance right now? [chuckle] No, no, none. And so being able to create that predictability will then allow for romance to happen. And so you can create, so excellent approach. Absolutely excellent.0:41:15 Leanne: Because I found that in doing that, being able to calm down that anxiety, then when he did come up, for instance, behind me at the kitchen sink and give me a hug and then maybe even fondled me a little bit. I was able to learn to fold into that touch, to really embrace that and appreciate it, and just know that he just was wanting my attention. He was wanting to be affectionate with me, and I was able to fold into that instead of being angry, "Ahh he wants sex with me tonight," it's like, "Nope, it's not a sex night," I can fold into this, he's just wanting a moment with me at the kitchen sink. So that helped a lot, and that was a couple of years before the whole exercise of every day. And now it's not even a thought, we engage in all kinds of touch and flirting, and it's not even a worry in either one of our minds if it will or will not lead to the bedroom. Our relationship now it's beautiful, it's wonderful. All of it is just embraced and cherished.0:42:19 Daniel: Do you have any words of advice or cautions that you've learned from your relationship that you feel is important to share that we haven't addressed yet?0:42:28 Leanne: Any cautions?0:42:29 Daniel: Yeah, maybe reflecting on your own approach, What words of advice would you give the wives who are maybe willing to, "Okay, this is scary for me, I wanna open up and embrace my husband's sexual touches." Is there any words of caution around that? Do you feel like that can go wrong? Or did it go wrong for you at any point? Or any other aspects of your sexual relationship and self-discovery?0:42:55 Leanne: I definitely feel like there are still boundaries. And I still give myself permission if there's a certain thing I don't like, I voice it. Just because we're being more open and accepting, you still have your boundaries and it is absolutely okay to voice your boundaries and say, "I don't care for that, or I don't like when you touch me in that certain way it really bothered me because of the," is that what you mean?0:43:22 Daniel: Yeah, that's a great clarification. 'Cause I don't want the listeners to think, "Okay, I'm going to follow Leanne's example and just give myself completely over to my husband's sexual desires and anything goes. You still get that right to say, "I'm uncomfortable with this, I'm not sure about this, I'm not ready for that." Whatever that boundary looks like. And so how do you go about or how would you recommend going about that? 'cause it could be a fine line at times, right? You're wanting to explore, but you also don't wanna shut your partner down. How do you have that communication or to navigate that, that disinterest or that boundary without shutting down, or regressing in your recovery?0:44:06 Leanne: Well, for me, we have progressed so far that I do it just because of the personality that I am. I kinda do it in a blunt, but jokey way, I will say to him, "I am not a milk cow. Please don't touch me that way. It makes me feel like a milk cow."0:44:26 Leanne: Like, stuff like that. Because we've come so far that it's not... We know where we are.0:44:33 Daniel: It's not rejection.0:44:33 Leanne: No, it's not rejection at all because he knows that nine times out of 10 the way he touches me I love and I accept, and I revel in. But if there's a certain way I'll be like, "Hey, that doesn't feel good to me," and sometimes I'll make a joke out of it, but sometimes, I'm like... But I would say though in the bedroom, this is like outside of the bedroom, but in the bedroom when you're trying new things I definitely am more tender, or more thoughtful of his feelings, like make sure just, "Why don't you try it this way 'cause that way is hurting me a little bit." Or I'm more careful with how I... So just because that is so vulnerable place to be in the... You're all there, your whole body, all of you is there. And so I feel like more of a sacred space. I'm definitely more careful.0:45:22 Daniel: And I think husbands need to embrace the idea once you get to at least this level of sexual development and healthy approach. Recognizing it's not a rebuke, it's not a criticism. It's I want you to pleasure me, and if you're willing I could give you ideas on what will help, and right now that's not helping. And being able to embrace that as a learning tool and as a connecting tool as opposed to filling criticized and shut down. Because I think husbands too often will hear it, "Stop doing that," and they stop everything or they give up, or whatever.0:46:04 Leanne: I think husbands they get such a bad rap. It just makes me so sad. But I think they are very sensitive in this area. They feel like they're, society tells them that they should be these sexual experts who should automatically know how to please a woman or whatever. And it opens them up to, there's a lot of pressure that they feel to try to please their wives. And then I wanna talk about that for a minute, so the learning each other sexually. Too often we think that men just need to automatically know what their wives would want. And recently, I've heard this idea and concept and it's absolutely true, and made so much such in my head. You're the only one that's in charge of your sexual pleasure, you're in charge of it because you're the only one that's in your head and inside your body. Your husband's not, he doesn't know what you're thinking. He doesn't know what you're feeling inside of your body. And so yes he's trying to pleasure you, but if you don't voice if that's pleasurable or not he's not gonna know. And so it takes a lot of communication. And if a wife is not receiving, if she's unhappy with her sex life and basically all they're having his intercourse because she hasn't voiced anything different and she hates it and resents it.0:47:36 Leanne: Well, my question to them is, "Have you asked for anything different? Because how is he supposed to know that you want anything different? And I think me, I talked about this in my last podcast. But men and women really do need to understand each other sexualities and how we pick, and that women tend to be more emotional. And if my emotional needs were not being meet outside the bedroom, then it is hard for me to then be physical with my husband. If I feel like he was being, that he was mean to me on a certain day, or just really being grumpy and kinda taking it out on me, I'm gonna be less inclined to want to then be physical with him in the bedroom if he asks me for it. It's like, "You were kind of a jerk today, I'm not feeling emotionally connected to you because you hurt my feelings." But sometimes maybe we need to get to the bottom of that."Have you had a rough day? You seem really stressed today. Can I help you with that at all? Can we talk about that?" And maybe it's the end of the day and he answers that conversation, "Yes, he was really stressed and yes he would love to be with us intimately to get some tenderness from us to relieve that stress." And so yes, we can't completely shut him down because they were barking outside the bedroom.0:48:55 Leanne: But I think men also has a duty to understand that it's important for women to feel connected on emotional level with their husbands in order to be able to be intimate in the bedroom. But then on the other hand, women need to understand that men that's the way they connect with you is through the physical. That's the way they show you that they love you and you need to love and embrace that.0:49:16 Leanne: And women and men we've talked about it before, we need to figure out what each other likes. We need to have some [0:49:23] ____ focused exercises within our marriage where you're just really discovering each other's bodies, and discovering what each other likes. That needs to be happening. Women need to figure out what they love, so do men. And we need to come together as a couple and figure out and what then together we can do to bring the most pleasure to each other in all aspects, in the four-levels, spiritual, mental, emotional, bring all that together, and figure it out. And it's a journey. I think people think it's gonna happen overnight. It is not, it doesn't happen overnight. It's a journey and you need to embrace it as a journey. This is a journey of discovery that we are on together, and embrace it and be excited about it.0:50:09 Daniel: And it never ends, because we're constantly changing...0:50:13 Leanne: No.0:50:13 Daniel: As human beings biologically, emotionally, stress, whatever. And so if we think, "Oh that's a mistake," we finally feel like we've had some breakthroughs we enjoy sex this way, and I think that's why a lot of couples get stuck in a rut and repeating certain routine sexual behaviors is 'cause we knew it worked then, but it still needs to be discovered. Is this still working and explore that and also a thought, going back to what you're saying about if he's grumpy, I actually recommend that you first have sex and I think it goes along with this concept of being responsible for your own sexual arousal, not making somebody else a partner or excuse me, relying on somebody else for your arousal. There is definitely a need for your partner to be loving and kind to you to help that along, but I've often suggested have sex and then have that conversation of, you appeared grumpy today, and it was kind of hard to be around that. Can we talk about that? And you'll find in almost every situation, after you have sex it's much easier to have that conversation. Much, much easier and to recover and reduce that type of behavior.0:51:33 Leanne: Sex really is or can be kind of a bomb, like a healing bomb for couples. It's a beautiful thing, it really is. It's such a beautiful gift that God has given to couples, and it breaks my heart to see all the struggle that surrounds it. Because when the barriers can be broken down and the husbands and wives can really work on this part of their relationship, it really is a healing bomb for the rest of their relationship. It's like the crowning jewel and it breaks my heart when so many couples just struggle with it, and so many women just shut it down. Not understanding it at all, not understanding what it can be. It just, it really makes me sad.0:52:39 Daniel: I think we focus a lot on how the adversary can corrupt the sexual experience, and we generally view that in the context of perverting it in physical acts. But the one aspect that the adversary tries to destroy sexuality is by avoiding it. If he can't corrupt it, then avoid it. I refer to that as sexual silence, and that can take on many, many forms. Whether it's just not talking about, or avoiding it, or saying a certain behavior is bad, it shuts it down and it creates that divisiveness. But if we're able to use sex in a way to communicate we could bring each other together. And that's the beauty that I hear you saying over and over today.0:53:31 Leanne: I fully believe, my husband I have talked about this very thing quite often. The adversary, before we're married he will tempt us with trying to get us to have sex outside of marriage because after we're married he will try to get us to stop having sex. It is so true because he knows that will reek havoc within a marriage, and he doesn't care how he destroys a person. He doesn't care if he's having you have sex outside of marriage, or get you to stop having sex inside a marriage. He'll try to destroy people in any way he can, and he knows how powerful a marriage is when they can be deeply connected sexually. A marriage that is truly intimate in all levels of their marriage, that is a powerful marriage, and satan knows that, and he will try to get at it in any way you can. And the biggest way he does it is by shutting down sexuality. I firmly believe that.0:54:28 Daniel: Absolutely. Leanne, you've been so insightful. Is there any other things that you would like to address before we end today's podcast?0:54:37 Leanne: Okay, one more thing really, really fast.0:54:39 Daniel: Absolutely, take your time.0:54:40 Leanne: Can I just say that having kids is really tiring. And my husband and I weren't able to have children, but we adopted two children. And sex and being able to work on your life, sex life, it gets easier, and easier as the kids get older and older. And so I would just say give yourself grace in this area. Both husbands and wives need to realize that kids can be exhausting, and there's seasons of our lives that are harder for us to work on our sex lives just because of exhaustion. There are two things that kill desire the most, one is exhaustion, and the other one is being pressured. If you feel pressured to have sex or if you are exhausted those are the two main killers of desire. And so I just wanna say, just know that and work through that. It's gonna be tricky to work through when your kids are small, especially, but just try to keep working on that as much as you can. And just keep looking forward to that day, it's gonna get easier, it's gonna get easier. And now that we're empty nesters it's amazing because we work on it whenever we want. But we had something to work on it on the other side of our kids being gone, like we started working on this a couple of years ago. And so we weren't staring at each other when both of our kids are gone saying, "We don't know who we are anymore. Like who are you?0:56:17 Leanne: I haven't been creating this relationship with you all these years. I don't even know you." And husbands, I didn't realize how hard kids were until I had my little grand baby for two weeks, a couple of weeks ago, and he kicked my butt. I had him for two weeks and I was exhausted, and it really made me appreciate again young mothers. And so husbands just step in where you can to help her, especially if it's a night that you know you're gonna have sex. Help her get the kids to bed, help her with dinner, help her relieve some of that exhaustion, so she has some energy left for you at the end, 'cause honestly kids can be exhausting.0:57:04 Daniel: Yes, they can be.0:57:05 Leanne: I discovered that. [chuckle]0:57:07 Daniel: Absolutely.0:57:07 Leanne: I discovered that a couple of weeks ago. I was like, "Oh my God."0:57:09 Daniel: In with those, to borrow this idea that we talked about earlier. Even in my opinion, I find that with kids scheduling is even more important 'cause you can do it during nap time time, and create some sort of expectation around that, positive expectation with your spouse, so that you don't feel like you're being demanded from constantly. Thank you Leanne. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing more of your story, thank you.0:57:38 Leanne: Can I say one more thing really, really fast.0:57:40 Daniel: Of course. Go for it.0:57:41 Leanne: Okay, one thing that helped me the most and then I'll be done. It's been bugging me 'cause I knew I wanted to say it and I couldn't remember what it was. Because men and women's desire is so different, there's responsive desire versus, what's the other one? I'm sure you know it, responsive versus spontaneous. So a husband is more spontaneous desire, when he thinks about sex he's ready to go right then, and a woman is more responsive, she kinda has to kinda start being intimate and then the desire comes. And so the biggest thing that helped for me was to always have a pilot light lit with inside of me. And what the pilot light says to me is that, "I am so connected to you, and I want to be known by you, and I want you to know me, and I wanna connect on a deep level, we are already connected on that deep level." And so that pilot light is always lit and whenever my husband wants to be intimate or whatever, and I initiate just as much as he does now. But whenever he does want to initiate the answer is always yes because that pilot light is like, "Yup," and I know it will take me a little bit to get in the mood, like right now I'm not sexually feeling it in this moment. I'm not turned on in this moment, but I know once we get started it will come.0:58:56 Leanne: And I think so often women are like, "I just don't have a sex drive, I just don't think about it. I don't have a sex drive." Well it's 'cause we're created differently. We're responsive, we have to be talked into sex, or feel start to engage and then the response comes. And so, I think, we as women we need to remember that. You might not feel like you're in the mood right now, but start being intimate and you'll find that not too long into it you're in the mood. And so keeping that pilot light always lit for me is very helpful.0:59:45 Daniel: I think that was a wonderful way to end us. Thank you, I appreciate your time.0:59:52 Leanne: Yup, yup. Thank you.0:59:53 Daniel: Alright.

 Amanda Louder is a Certified Life Coach who helps women from conservative Christian backgrounds love their sex life. She helps women embrace their sexuality to help them strengthen their relationship with themselves, their spouse, and their Heavenly Parents. As a first step to helping women embrace their sexuality, she has provided a FREE guide to help women understand how they personally experience pleasure. You can get this guide by going to www.amandalouder.com/improvingintimacyIn addition to being a coach, Amanda is also a wife, mom to 3 and step-mom to 2.  In her spare time, she enjoys reading, watching her kids play sports, fishing, and camping.To hear more from Amanda, you can find her on Instagram @AmandaLouderCoaching or her podcast "Live From Love" where she talks about all things sex and marriage.[music]00:02 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.00:20 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, we have life coach Amanda Louder with us, and I'm excited to explore her journey. I've been through her podcast and her website, and she's a member of the Intimacy Group. And I really enjoy her comments a lot, so I'm excited, and hopefully you are excited, to explore her journey to healthy sexuality here. So, let's jump right into it. Welcome. Tell us a little bit about yourself, Amanda.00:47 Amanda: Thanks so much, Daniel, I'm excited to be here. My name is Amanda Louder. I am a certified life coach. I coach women, primarily from conservative Christian backgrounds, help them embrace their sexuality, learn to love their sex life. I'm married. I'm currently on my second marriage, don't plan to have any more. [chuckle]01:08 DANIEL: Oh, wow.01:09 AMANDA: And together we have five kids, ranging from 11 to almost 20.01:14 DANIEL: That's exciting. So, what took you on this journey? I'm assuming that you weren't always a life coach.01:18 AMANDA: No. [chuckle]01:20 DANIEL: So, what brought you here?01:22 AMANDA: So, when I went through my divorce about eight years ago, it was really a time of discovery for me and discovering myself. And I actually have a great relationship with my ex-husband now, and we co-parent really well. And I'm remarried. I actually got remarried fairly quickly. I met my husband just six weeks after my divorce was final, and we married about nine months later, and we've been very happily married for seven years now. And so, people started reaching out to me for divorce advice, because they could see that, I guess as far as divorce goes, it was pretty successful. [chuckle] And so, I was getting calls like three or four times a month from people either asking for themselves or for a close friend or family member. And I really started thinking about going back to school to become a therapist so that I could help more women who had been in my situation. And I looked into it, and it would have taken me a lot of years and a lot of time that I wasn't willing to sacrifice with my family. I had five children at that point, and I'm very busy with them. And so, it wasn't something that I was willing to pursue. But then I found coaching a few years ago, and immediately, it felt like the right choice. It felt like what I was meant to do.02:44 AMANDA: So, I started coaching, and then I went through a certification program. I started originally just coaching women who were struggling in their marriage and contemplating divorce, helping them come to that decision for themselves with confidence and peace. And as I coached more and more, I found more and more women were struggling with healthy sexuality within their marriage and within themselves. And I was actually just on a trip this summer with a bunch of other girlfriends who are also coaches, and we're sitting around our condo, as girls do, and sex comes up. And so, I started imparting of my knowledge of the subject. And by the end of our trip, all of my friends were like, "Amanda, you have to do this. You have to change your niche. This is what you were truly meant to do. We have learned more from you in a weekend than we have in 15 years of marriage." And I was very hesitant at first. Sex can be a very scary topic for some people. I come from a background... A very private background. My parents are very private people.03:48 DANIEL: Very.03:49 AMANDA: I've never been that way. I'm always been an open book. But respecting where I came from and stuff, I understand that it can be a very scary subject for a lot of people to talk about. But it is something that I am very comfortable talking about. I feel very comfortable in that space and really want to help women love their sex life and embrace that so that they can not only enjoy their marriage more, but truly embrace who they are as a person. And I think it helps them come closer to themselves, to their spouse, and to their heavenly parents.04:20 DANIEL: I think it's impressive as I listen to your podcast. It's one thing to be a coach or even a therapist and work with people with sexual health issues, another have this ability to talk about the very sensitive, private, taboo topics in a way that's very comfortable. And that's one thing I immediately appreciate listening to your podcast. You could say things like vagina, clitoris, masturbation. The one episode I was listening to, I think it was orgasms. And the way you presented the information, you even talked about how using masturbation is a healthy part of discovering yourself. The way you presented it was very impressive. It's very difficult within our culture to even use the word masturbation. You pointed out it's a dirty word, and it triggers a lot of people.05:04 AMANDA: Well, I have to attribute a lot of that to you, Daniel. I listened to a podcast you were on, I think it was maybe the Mormon Marriages podcast, and mainly...05:11 DANIEL: Oh, with Nate Bagley and his wife?05:13 AMANDA: Yes. And it really opened up my eyes to a different way of looking at things. And then, I really started doing a lot of my own research and thoughts and prayer about it to be a lot more open-minded about it.05:26 DANIEL: Thank you. It's been quite a journey, but today's podcast is not about me. I relate to you a lot, just I didn't realize you had this background with your divorce. It sounds almost parallel to my experience. I'm assuming you probably already know. But it sounds like we were even divorced at probably about the same time. And I met my wife shortly before my divorce, and we knew we were gonna get married within months after my divorce was finalized. And so, in my journey, I made the stupid decision of jumping back into school and getting into therapy, and that was... It's difficult. And I knew it was gonna be hard, but I value and appreciate the weight of that journey, and I've been very open and vocal about life coaching and the concerns I have around it. You have something that most coaches don't have, is an actual certificate. You're a certified professional life coach. And I think that's important because one of the things of working with people, especially with this type of subject, is you really gotta understand your boundaries, professionally, ethically, and what the client's responsibility is and your responsibility is. And I think that adds an additional level of safety in the relationship.06:37 DANIEL: And so, very good for you. I admire you for doing that, because you're right. I can't tell you how many people I've seen in our position, try to go back into, or at least pursue therapy as a career, and they have to stop after four or five years because it's gotten too expensive, and the barrier to entry is just ridiculous. And that's why I don't say life coaching is not an option. I think it is definitely an option. In fact, I hire life coaches, and I worked as a life coach for a while. But back to what you do, I love this. So, you're presenting a message of safety to these women and you're giving an example that they haven't seen before. When you say you did a divorce right, I totally understand what you mean by that. No divorce is easy, by any means. But they were pursuing you. What did you notice? What was maybe a common theme or pattern that you saw in the people who were seeking your advice? Kind of a big question there, but what would you sum it up, or did you see any patterns, or was it kind of all over the place?07:33 AMANDA: It's really all over the place. Everybody comes to the table with different issues. Their spouse comes to the table with different issues. And it's just really helping them see how they're interpreting the situation, the story that they're telling themselves, and how that's giving them the results that they're getting in their marriage. I worked with women who were really struggling with their sexuality, I worked with women whose husbands had issues with pornography, I was working with women who have had issues with infidelity in their marriage. And some, they were just unhappy because their husbands weren't living up to what they thought husbands should be, what they thought their spouse was supposed to be, the needs that their spouse was supposed to be meeting in them, and just teaching them how to meet those needs for themselves and just letting their partner be them and choosing to love them anyway.08:22 DANIEL: That's a big one, and one that I don't think even a lot of therapists embrace. Maybe that's not a fair statement. Maybe don't value or understand a lot. We get couples into the therapy room, and we focus on better communication. And those things are important. But I like what you're saying here. And I wanna inquire a little bit more about that, and focusing on the individual and their needs. And I've heard that in a few of your podcasts, the need to turn to yourself and understand what your needs are. Tell me a little bit more about your journey there and how you came to that conclusion.08:54 AMANDA: Well, we all have issues, we all come to the table with baggage. And really, being able to look at yourself and see what you're bringing to the table and how you're contributing to your relationship. Are you being needy? Are you being demanding? Are you being... And they stem from all sorts of issues from your background, but you're showing up in a way that's creating the relationship that you don't want. And so, really taking a look at how your thinking is creating that result for you, creating that relationship for you, and what you can do differently even if your spouse never changes. And sometimes that means making hard decisions. Sometimes, that means setting boundaries, walking away, whatever that is for you. But looking at yourself first, not, "How do I change him?" It's, "How do I change me? How do I get comfortable with myself in this situation, no matter how my partner shows up?"09:54 DANIEL: That's a huge concept. [chuckle]09:56 AMANDA: Yeah, it is.09:56 DANIEL: Big. And I'm curious if you get any push back on that?10:00 AMANDA: For sure.10:00 DANIEL: How do you deal with that? Let's get a little bit more specific here. I think there's this danger, and you pointed out in one of your podcasts is, "Are you blaming me for my spouse's behaviors then?" And that's usually how that phrase is taken. It's like, "Focus on yourself. See what you're doing to contribute to the problem or the issue." How do you navigate that?10:19 AMANDA: Well, it's individual. It really just depends on how they're thinking about it. What I say to all of my clients is, every problem is a thought problem. It's just how you're choosing to think about it. Or, you're believing what your brain is offering to you without questioning it. If you wanna believe something, believe it with intention, not just because that's what's offered to you. One I hear a lot is, like, "My spouse plays way too many video games. I'm sick and tired of him neglecting me, neglecting the house, neglecting the kids, because he's busy playing video games." And this could be a variety of things. It could be watching sports or looking at pornography, or whatever it is. It's his behavior. Well, how are you choosing to think about it? How are you contributing to that situation? One, you can choose to think that it's not a problem. That's totally up to you. But you can also choose to think it is a problem, and then what are the results of that? And are you okay with that? Is that serving you? If it's serving you, go ahead and keep thinking about it. But if it's not, then you can look at what you want to purposely think instead that might change that dynamic.11:25 AMANDA: Try to look at it from his point of view. Maybe he's had a long day at work, and this is how he knows how to unwind. Maybe he's doing that too much and you just need to have a conversation about it. But are you having that conversation in a blaming way, like, "You shouldn't do this," or you're saying, "This is what I see, and this is how it's affecting me. This is how I feel"? And be confident enough in yourself to be able to say those things.11:49 DANIEL: I really appreciate that. I use this example and I appreciate it as an example because we focus on the wrong problem a lot. And when I work with clients and they say, let's go with this example of, "He's gaming all the time. And he won't listen to me, he won't get off. He's absorbed with it." And what the discussion starts to evolve around is, how much he's gaming. But that's not really what we want. We want his attention. And so, I will often say, "Tell you what, let's try this experiment. Why don't you stop talking about the... Don't ever bring up the gaming anymore. And you walk into the house after getting the kids or coming home from work, and you see him gaming with his headphones on or whatever he's doing, and tell you what, why don't you do something a little bit different and go up to him, hug him in a way that's not distracting him but letting him know that you're there, and say, 'I would really love to spend a few minutes with you. I miss you'? And watch how that changes." Now, often, people will... They'll come back and they'll say, "He didn't listen to me."12:55 AMANDA: Keep doing it.12:56 DANIEL: No, keep doing it, day after day. Create a new sense of predictability. I think a lot of couples, depending... Especially if they've been in this rut for so long, it's like, "I'm not trusting that behavior. Where is that coming from?" It becomes a little bit suspicious. "You're actually focusing on me and not the games. Are you just trying to manipulate me?" But we give the gaming, or whatever that problem is or that distraction, all the attention. And it no longer becomes about each other. It's about ending this. As though taking that behavior away will then create a healthy behavior.13:28 AMANDA: Well, so I talk a lot about, like, "Who do you want to be in this situation? Do you wanna be the nagging, controlling wife? Or do you want to be the wife who's loving and compassionate and trying to create that connection with your spouse?" Because really, that's what's happening. You're not getting that connection that you want. He's getting the connection through gaming, or whatever. He's getting what he thinks he needs, but he probably rather get it from you, if you're offering it in the right way.13:55 DANIEL: It's interesting, as I listen to you speak, you're definitely using language, I think you have an advantage as a woman working with female clients. I don't know if I could ever get away with saying, "nagging." "Stop nagging your husband."14:05 AMANDA: [chuckle] Yeah. Women nag, I can say that. We nag. Yeah.14:09 DANIEL: [chuckle] Yeah, that's very good, that's very difficult to do, and be able to focus on the positive behavior. I always call it, "What's the desired outcome?" And they'll say, "Stop the game." No, that's not the desired outcome. The desired outcome is, "I wanna feel closer. I wanna feel connected." Then, let's make that...14:29 AMANDA: Let's make that the goal.14:30 DANIEL: Not the ending. 'Cause really, if your husband... And let's exaggerate a little here, for example's sake. If he's gaming 12 hours a day, but he's providing a living and you feel totally connected to him, is the gaming really a problem? "No, I feel totally connected to him." So, it's not really the gaming. I realize it's an exaggerated example, but usually, is the case. So, excellent, I love that approach. So, tell me a little bit more about how you work with the sexual topic. I know when I first did this, it was... And I appreciate the compliment that you got it from me, but when I first did this, and I've shared this story before. My first blog post was a couple, maybe three years ago, about masturbation, my infamous, seven series blog posts. I remember when I clicked post, I was shaking. I was afraid of how people would perceive me and just the whole cultural phenomenon around that. And so, it took me quite a few years to get to that point where it was even comfortable to say out loud, even with clients. Masturbation. I'm constantly managing that sensitivity around that issue. How do you feel like you've taken that journey and getting comfortable with engaging in those topics with people?15:48 AMANDA: It's just kind of who I am. I'm...15:51 DANIEL: Oh, really?15:51 AMANDA: I think it's become more and more comfortable, but it's never been something that I've really had a problem talking about, body parts and saying vulva and vagina and clitoris and penis. That's never been an issue for me. But that's not how I was raised, so...16:10 DANIEL: Yeah, you were saying you were raised in a very private home.16:13 AMANDA: Yes, very. Very private. So, it's just something that I feel like... I almost feel like it's a gift that I've been given. And that's part of the reason... When I started coaching a year-and-a-half ago, I don't know that I would have been ready at that point to discuss these sexual topics in the nature that I do now and become a sex coach. [chuckle] But now, I'm stepping into my own, that is who I am, and I can see that very, very clearly. And I feel very prompted. I bring prayer and the Spirit very much into every podcast that I do and all of my coaching sessions. I pray about what I'm supposed to be podcasting about that week, and I feel very prompted onto what those topics are supposed to be. And so many times, when I listen to those promptings, the words just flow. And so, I just learned to recognize that this is who I am, this is who I was made to be, and I'm just really stepping into that, and as I do so, my Heavenly Father is blessing me more and more.17:26 DANIEL: I appreciate hearing that. I think one of the collateral damage of work in my type of profession is being hyper-sensitive to people's concerns and not wanting to offend or come across as unempathetic. And I think sometimes that's a detrimental in the sense that I forget my personality in that because I'm so focused. And it's interesting because it's almost like a marriage in a sense, because if I lose myself in that work and that other person, I forget the gifts that I bring. So, that's a really good reminder to me, I appreciate hearing that. And being myself, I think, I've talked about this, written about this, is, I'm gonna say dumb things and I'm gonna say things that are incorrect.18:12 AMANDA: Totally.18:13 DANIEL: I'm dyslexic in my communication, as you probably already can tell, but if I focus more on a fear on not being truthful to myself and offending somebody else, I lose that power in that message. And so, that's a great reminder.18:28 AMANDA: We can't control what other people are thinking, so no matter what we say, people could be offended. [chuckle] So, I would rather just be true to myself and true to who I know I'm supposed to be, and let them worry about them.18:40 DANIEL: We call that differentiation in therapy, and that's a powerful concept and very difficult for a lot of people to embrace. I've discovered, as I've tried to bring that to the table, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this is, as you teach clients how to differentiate and to be an individual, is that scary for them? What's their experience like?19:01 AMANDA: Yeah, I always tell clients it's gonna get worse before it gets better.19:05 DANIEL: What do you mean by that? I think I know what you mean.19:07 AMANDA: Yeah, so when we start showing up differently, the dance changes. We've been doing this dance with our partner, with ourselves, even, for a very long time, and when we start showing up differently, the people around us, and not just our spouse, but our parents, our children, our friends, are like, "Woah, what's happening here? This is not normal." And they're like, "I don't know how to do this dance, I don't know how to respond." But eventually, most the time, they get the hang of it. If we just...19:35 AMANDA: You create a new normal...19:36 AMANDA: You create a new normal. So, I have a client who... She was definitely... Well, she says, "Being controlled," by her spouse. Really, she was letting herself be controlled. We know that it's not... They're not controlling, you're letting yourself be controlled. So, once she learned to step into her own, her spouse was like, "No, this is not happening. I run... This is what I do." And she was like, "Sorry, this isn't the way it's happening." And now, they've figured out this new dance and things are so good, so good. They've learned to give and take more, and she's willing to really say what she's thinking and not be afraid of his response. And he wasn't abusive or mean, or anything, it was just like, "I'm the man. This is the way it's gonna be". And she...20:26 DANIEL: It was his role.20:28 AMANDA: It was his role. And she's like, "Sorry, that's just not gonna work anymore". And it was really rough for a long time, but then he's like, "Okay, this is the new normal. Okay, I can see how this is actually beneficial for both of us. Okay, this is working. Yeah, okay, let's keep doing this, let's do it, let's do this dance now." And it's so much better.20:48 DANIEL: That is so wonderful to hear from you because I think there's a concern when we... When we look at these relationships, we have a difficult time in general. I'm not just talking about life coaches or therapists, is someone has to be bad and somebody has to be good. And so, when we look at these situations I think we have to be very, very careful. And you demonstrated that right now, is where we have... Let's go with this example of the wife coming in, saying, "I'm being controlled." And then, you reframe it to, "You're allowing yourself to be controlled," which is a big concept and a little scary, as you see. But then, the husband's response in this is, "No, this isn't gonna happen." We tend to stereotypically identify that as a manipulative person. But you had this insight is, "Well maybe this is just his training." He's not trying to be a bad person, as you clarify. He wasn't abusive, but his behavior, the way he was raised as an individual, this is his communication style and he doesn't know how to get out of it, so we need to help him out of it. It's not because he's a bad person. But he just doesn't know how to do it.22:00 AMANDA: But he didn't come to coaching, he didn't go to therapy. It was only her. But by her changing the dynamic and changing the way that she was showing up in the relationship, changed the relationship.22:12 DANIEL: Yes, and that's huge. Good clarification there. And you were able to create that change through her.22:18 AMANDA: And it wasn't me creating the change through her, it was her creating the change through her.22:22 DANIEL: But even in that situation... In fact, it could be even more risky, because we could look at this, we don't know the husband, we don't know his behavior, it could become an easy out and say, "He is abusive. You need to get away from him."22:33 AMANDA: Well, you can, but we talk about that and we talk about healthy boundaries, what those look like. When he starts exhibiting more control, maybe using some language that violates one of those boundaries, then you say, "Hey, that's not okay with me. If you wanna keep using that language, that's totally fine, but I'm gonna go, I'm gonna leave the room. I'm gonna leave the house for a couple of hours. I'll come back when you're ready to talk about it again in a better manner," I guess.23:00 DANIEL: I notice on your website, and it sounds like you work exclusively with women, but do you ever work as a couple?23:06 AMANDA: Yeah, I've worked with couples, I've worked with just men.23:08 DANIEL: Okay, so it's not just women.23:10 AMANDA: No.23:11 DANIEL: But that's your primary audience.23:13 AMANDA: Yes.23:13 DANIEL: So, along this line of thinking, you extend this idea of, "You need to take responsibility in your relationship for your own behavior and how you perceive things and create a new healthy or a new normal." You push this idea into intimacy. And I think it was that same podcast I was listening to is, "When sex is requested, say yes."23:36 AMANDA: It's the Nike approach. Just do it.23:38 DANIEL: Just do it.23:38 AMANDA: Say yes to the sex. That's what I say.23:40 DANIEL: And you addressed the concerns around that in the podcast, but tell me a little bit more because there is a risk there. How do you create healthy boundaries in an environment where you're saying yes to sex whenever requested?23:52 AMANDA: Yeah, so of course there's gonna be abuses taken, but what I'm talking about is more just in a good healthy relationship, where a lot of women are just not in the mood, so they're not... They don't wanna do it whenever their husband wants. And I'm really encouraging them to cultivate that connection and that desire within themselves, so that when their husband approaches them, they're ready, they want it too. And the more that they cultivate that within themselves, the more they start to crave it themselves.24:28 DANIEL: Is there ever a time to say no?24:29 AMANDA: Yeah, I've had women who, like, "Well, what if my husband is wanting sex as I go out the door and I need to be somewhere?" I'm like, "Okay, that's not gonna work. But you don't say, 'No, we're not having sex right now,' you say, 'Hold that thought. Let's do it later. I gotta run here.'" So, you're not saying no, you're saying yes, but let's do it later, when it's a little bit more convenient.24:51 DANIEL: You're focusing on the desired outcome. I love it.24:54 AMANDA: Yeah. Another one was like... And this is... Sorry, maybe too much for you, but women are like, "Well, can I say no when I'm on my period?" I'm like, "Well, that's a boundary... "25:03 DANIEL: Not too much here at all.25:05 AMANDA: "That's the boundary you can set for yourself." "Yes, I will say yes to you when I'm not on my period." But I will push you a little bit further and say, "It is totally fine for you to have sex while you're on your period, you just have to make some adjustments. Get a towel. It might be a little messier. Use a menstrual disk so that you can... " There are options. It's just, what are you willing to do for that?25:28 DANIEL: As I said at the beginning, we're gonna meander here. I love having just casual conversation. Let's explore that a little bit more there. I've actually, and maybe it's just being a man, I'm seeing a different perspective here, but I'm curious what you're seeing. Usually, I hear the man doesn't wanna have sex while the wife is on her period. Are you seeing it the other way around, where usually it's the women or is it...25:50 AMANDA: I see both. In my, "say yes to the sex challenge", if the man is saying, "I wanna have sex and I know you're on your period," then what is your hold up? What barriers are you putting into play? Just like, "Oh, I can't do it because I'm on my period," or like, "Is there really a problem?"26:09 DANIEL: Excellent, excellent insight there. I love it. So fascinating. So, what is the maybe biggest obstacles to intimacy that you're seeing for women?26:22 AMANDA: Guilt. Shame. Not knowing their body.26:25 DANIEL: Guilt and shame around what?26:28 AMANDA: I think the cultural dialogues that they've had in their youth, that their sexuality is something that needs to be repressed and is evil and is going to take them to hell, and then all of the sudden expecting that to be different when they're married. And not understanding that we should not be repressing sexuality as teenagers. We should be learning to manage it. And so, now that you're an adult, you've gotta figure out how to manage it as an adult. And that means not continuing to suppress it, and that means doesn't going crazy but learning how to manage it as an adult manages things.27:06 DANIEL: Wow. How does one go about eliminating that guilt? That's...27:11 AMANDA: Figuring out where it comes from, what the thoughts are, and just retraining the brain on... A lot of what I get is women saying, "I feel dirty. I feel un-virtuous. I feel like Heavenly Father is going to be mad at me."27:28 DANIEL: Wait, wait, wait. Are you talking about about when they're having sex with their spouse?27:30 AMANDA: Yes, when they're having sex with their spouse, that it creates all of this guilt and shame that somehow their Heavenly Father is looking down on them for not using sex only for procreation. For a lot of them, it's okay to procreate, but for fun and enjoyment and being closer to their spouse, not okay.27:48 DANIEL: This is actually something that I've discovered more and more. I think I knew it before, but I didn't realize how deep it ran. I knew it did with me, but for maybe other reasons. But this concept, if you noticed in the group and maybe you saw are common, with the new interview, temple-recommended interview questions came out. And the questions around the law of chastity where you're striving to have morally clean thoughts. And some... And this is not to point out anybody or criticize or shame in any way, but a few people were actually saying, "How do I answer that question when I'm desiring sex with my husband?" Or something to that effect. And so, they equated this idea that sex, even with your eternal companion, is dirty and can't be experienced emotionally or mentally.28:35 AMANDA: Or having thoughts about having sex with your spouse is dirty. And yeah, I just... I'm like, "No." And I tried to tell this as much as I can and try to help women understand, like, "This is what's supposed to be happening. This is what your Heavenly Father wants for you. He gave you an entire organ just for your pleasure. It's not... He wants you to be having fun. He created your brain to need novelty and newness and dare we say dirty thoughts to get aroused with your spouse." Now, sometimes minds wander, and that's fine too. But if you're not turning away from your spouse to do that, if you're turning towards your spouse, even if your mind is going a different direction, good on you. That's what's supposed to be happening. This is how your brain was created. This is what your Heavenly Father wants for you. Just changing that dialogue, I think, is so needed, and that's what one of my main messages is. It's like, let's just change this dialogue a little bit. All of these things that you've heard or you heard as youth or you're reinforcing to yourself now, you're interpreting, there's a different way to think about things, and I just want you to open up your mind to that possibility.29:47 DANIEL: Yeah. What a wonderful idea there. That concept of guilt runs so deep and we start to bring so many different perspectives into the bedroom. And...29:58 AMANDA: Oh, for sure.29:58 DANIEL: We gotta get the Bishop out of the bedroom, we've gotta get our culture out of the bedroom. And how do we do that? 'Cause it crushes sex. Do you see... When a client of yours is able to embrace that idea and start to re-map their brain in how they think about this, what do you see happen to their sexual arousal or desire?30:19 AMANDA: It goes way up.[chuckle]30:22 DANIEL: It seems like I led right into that...30:23 AMANDA: Way up, yeah. This has happened with quite a few clients, but I usually see them creating, cultivating that more within themselves. And it just... It makes everything better. I have a little theory here that the anxiety that so many women have is really just that they're sexually frustrated. And I would love to do some sort of study on this. I gotta try and figure it out. But I really think that they don't understand their body well enough to know that they're actually craving it, and they need it. And if they would just let their body do what it was made to do, quit putting on the brakes all the time and just let it run, it would be so much better for every aspect of their life. They would be a better wife, they would be a better mother, they would be a better friend, they would be a better worker. Every single aspect of their life would be better. And I have seen that for myself. I've seen it in my clients. It happens almost every time. Unless there's some sort of sexual trauma, abuse or something that needs to be worked through, and that's not something I do. I turn that over to the professionals. I can work with a therapist when it comes to that, but that's not something that I personally work on, that's out of my scope. But unless there's that there, it's just women putting on the brakes when they don't need to put on the brakes.31:50 DANIEL: Yeah. Have you ever seen... And I appreciate the clarification around the trauma, and I think that's very important to... And thankful that you refer out for that stuff. And I think that it's important to understand too, it's not for everyone to approach it this way. I'm curious if you've ever seen where somebody is working on their guilt and they start to experience their desires in a way that they've never done before. Have you noticed any of them actually get scared of that desire?32:17 AMANDA: Yeah.32:18 DANIEL: Tell me a little bit about that.32:19 AMANDA: Their brain is doing this, like, "I want it, but I can't." And they're just fighting it constantly, and so, it's causing all this friction that they don't understand.32:28 DANIEL: They can't what? They can't have it or... Oh, because it's bad.32:31 AMANDA: It's bad. They shouldn't. But helping them retrain their thinking so that, like, "No, this is a good thing. This is what I was created for. If I can embrace this, my Heavenly Father can give me even more of His Spirit and His blessings. He can bless my relationship, my marriage, even more when I can open myself up to everything that I was created to be."33:00 DANIEL: I've even heard female clients say... I wanna represent it correctly. I think it was, "I don't... " As they're starting to feel this arousal and this orgasm come on, I've heard a handful of them say, "I don't deserve this." It's very self-shaming language. I'm not exactly sure what they're experiencing as a female, and that... 'Cause I know for a lot of men is like, "Yes, we're creating that experience." So, what is this dynamic they're feeling?33:32 AMANDA: I talked about it a little bit in my last podcast, that we...33:37 DANIEL: Was that 77 or... Which podcast was that?33:39 AMANDA: 78, I think. We're told in the proclamation of the family that we're nurturers. We are responsible to nurture our husbands and our children, and we've turned that into, "We need to be self-sacrificing."33:52 DANIEL: That's the language they use. "It feels selfish to have an orgasm." [33:55] ____, yes.33:57 AMANDA: Yes. Yes. And so, they don't feel like they can have that for themselves, because if they do, then they aren't fulfilling their eternal role as a nurturer. And what I say is, "You need to nurture yourself first." Sex isn't about the culmination of a man having an orgasm. That is not what sex is about. And when it comes to sex, yes, you want to take care and nurture your spouse, but you need to make sure that you are taken care of and nurtured for yourself as well. You and your arousal and your feelings and your primary responsibility. It is not your spouse's responsibility to give you an orgasm, it is your responsibility to get yourself in a place where that can happen.34:40 DANIEL: Wonderfully said. And I'm gonna link the listeners to the specific podcast that I'm referencing, we're referencing, in this podcast. But tell me a little bit more about that. I think it was in the orgasm podcast, again, that learning yourself, even through masturbation, it's not just about stimulating your clitoris. Tell me, do you recall what I'm talking about? Tell the audience more about self-exploration, what's involved with that?35:06 AMANDA: Yeah. So many people think that orgasm is the end goal. And really, it's about connection, but it's also about pleasure. So really, understanding how you personally experience pleasure, that can probably get you to orgasm, but understanding your body... We have erogenous zones all over our body. I love that Friends episode. [chuckle] I don't know if you remember that, but I'm sure some of your listeners probably do. The seven erogenous zones. We have so many places on our body that can experience pleasure. And so, if we tune into our body and really understand how we personally experience pleasure, then we are much more able to have that experience and cultivate that within ourselves. Whether that's, we are understanding how we can touch ourselves, or how we can guide a partner to touch us. It doesn't have to be masturbation. You don't have to pleasure yourself to the point of orgasm. It's just understanding what feels good to you, and then, being able to replicate that, either with a partner or on your own.36:17 DANIEL: We refer to this as sensate focus therapy. Touching and even dragging your fingers across your skin, and just becoming present with yourself. And I really valued how you approached this topic in that podcast, and that you're even sharing with the audience. Consider things you haven't considered before, like anal stimulation. And that may seem dirty, but even that concept of it feeling dirty or not even considering is self-shaming and not really considering what your body can or should do or would like to do. You're silencing your body and not actually paying attention to it. And so, in this senate experience, touching yourself all over, your nipples, your anus, your vagina, your arms, everything.37:04 AMANDA: Everything.37:05 DANIEL: Discover what you like and how it resonates with your sexual self.37:10 AMANDA: Yeah, and so, I actually... And I couldn't offer this, and I'll give you a link to put in your show notes. I offer a free worksheet, a download, where it guides a woman through different body parts and how those body parts like to be touched. And it's just... I call it the roadmap to personal pleasure. Really figuring out what pleasure feels like for you. It can be done alone, it can be done with a partner, both, either. You can do whatever you want with it. It's just a guide to get you thinking and get you started.37:47 DANIEL: Amanda, I gotta have you back on, 'cause I would love to continue to poke and prod your knowledge, and I could go on for hours like this. Anything that you would like to... I think you shared a lot here, but anything you'd like to leave the audience with, before we wrap up?38:03 AMANDA: I would love for you guys to follow me on Instagram @amandaloudercoaching. My podcast is called Live From Love. That's what I believe this life should be, that if we live from a place of love, we're not only honoring ourself, but we're honoring everybody else around us, and that's the best place to be.38:20 DANIEL: Amanda, thank you, thank you so much for your time.38:23 AMANDA: You're so welcome, Daniel, thanks for having me.

We often feel an urgency to start saving for retirement at a young age. “Start saving in your qualified plan (401k) now or you won’t have enough money for retirement!” Maybe we should change our thinking and accept that the economy is changing, and what worked for our parents and grandparents might not necessarily work in this developing economy. Join Daniel Ameduri, of Future Money Trends (https://www.futuremoneytrends.com/) , and WTR as we discuss why having a passive income could be what you need for building wealth and living the life you thought was merely an illusion, and what you can achieve if you adapt to living in the present. Ingenious tactics to accumulate wealth, for people who see things differently. Daniel Ameduri Website: (https://www.futuremoneytrends.com/) Facebook: (https://www.facebook.com/FutureMoneyTrends/) Twitter: (https://twitter.com/FutureMoneyTren) YouTube: (https://www.youtube.com/user/FutureMoneyTrends) Notes: Kevin: Daniel is the author of the new book “ Future Money Trends (https://www.futuremoneytrends.com/tag/daniel-ameduri) Clearly, you tend to think outside of the box. What inspired you to get to where you are today? Daniel: I’ve always had a fascination with money Unfortunately, when you make a lot of money in a bubble when you’re young, you’re destined for a blowup which happened to me Kevin: Robert Kiyosaki says “The poor way of thinking is ‘I can’t afford that’, whereas the wealthy way of thinking is ‘How can I afford that?'” Daniel: The biggest thing that you can to cut spending is moving (either out of state, out of the country, or to another part of the state you reside it) Can reduce the expenses by about 50% Buying for cash flow instead of buying for appreciation Most retirement savers are just speculating and hoping things go up, but my book focuses on how you can rethink that If it doesn’t bring you a check don’t buy it Kevin: I find it interesting in you saying not saving for retirement because typically, when people are talking about money in terms of retirement, people say they’re going to save for retirement and put money into their retirement savings account, which usually is a 401K or another IRA We make a distinction when we talk about money where you have two tanks for money Investment tank that has risk (you could lose money) Savings tank that is relatively safe If you put your money in a 401K or an IRA, it’s in a mutual fund and in the market, meaning it has risk (not a savings account) Daniel: So many people don’t know what they’re invested in and they continue to hope that it pays off It’s time to start asking ‘Is this even working?’ According to VanGuard, the median account holder who is 65+ with a 401K is only $58,000 Kevin: How could you survive with $58,000? For most people, that would get them by living a minimal life for approximately 2 years or so Daniel: It is very minimal. Perhaps they’re dependent on social security now You wonder what the lost opportunity was that they had just bought something that would pay them a dividend or pay them a yield, let’s say whether they’re investing in real estate or maybe they want to buy a single family home Kevin: I’m assuming that you would invest those dividends back in maybe to another property or expanding into other investments? Daniel: It depends what stage of the game you’re at If you’re young and you have great active income then go for it Later in life you may decide you want to use half of the passive income to pay for your vacation, your bills, your house, a change in career, etc. Kevin: So in terms of passive income, investing in two things that deliver a check to your mailbox or into your account, are there other options

Innovation. We love to talk about it, everyone wants it. Innovation is critical for people and organizations to grow. But we all mean different things when we say it. Today I have a conversation about how innovation is a conversation with Brian Ardinger. He's the director of Innovation at Nenet (which owns my student debt! Hi Nelnet!) and the host of InsideOutside.io, a community for innovators and entrepreneurs that produces a great podcast and a conference that brings together startup and enterprise organizations to talk innovation. There are three key conversations worth designing that we discuss and I want you to have your ears perked up for each as you listen to this episode. Each conversation can help you navigate the innovation process inside or outside your organization.  These three are the pre-conversation, the conversation about where to look for innovation and the conversation about patience. Brian specializes in a unique perspective on where to look for innovation. More on that in a moment. The Pre-Innovation Conversation Before you even start to talk about ideas or technology, it's essential to start with the end in mind. What kind of innovation is the company really looking for? Skip the pre-conversation and you have no idea of where you're heading. As Brian points out “without having that definition, then it's sometimes hard to know if you're playing the right game to begin with...the process itself of level setting... I don't think it takes a long time.” Brian and I didn't dive into tools to help with that conversation, so I put a few into the show notes. Mapping the innovation conversation can be done in lots of ways. One is thinking about evolutionary vs revolutionary change, another is about tangible vs intangible change, like rethinking policies or business models vs remaking product or space design.  I *just* did a webinar on this topic with my partner in the Innovation Leadership Accelerator, Jay Melone, hosted by the amazing people at Mural. Templates of the two innovation leadership frameworks we outlined are there in Mural for you to download and use, along with the webinar video to help you along. Also check out Mapping Innovation, by Greg Satell. You can download his playbook free in the show notes.  Where to look for innovation Brian's Inside/outside perspective is that innovation can be a conversation between the inside of a company and the outside world. Some innovation will happen internally, and some innovation can be brought from the outside in: the exchange and acquisition of ideas and technology from outside your organization is an important conversation for enterprise organizations to be having. When you're trying to innovate, it can be tempting to look in familiar places. If you're a financial technology firm, it can be tempting to look to fintech startups for what's next and to try to innovate through acquisition. But you'll also be looking were your competitors will be looking. Try an innovation approach based on Horizontal Evolution - look to the sides and edges of the landscape. Brian describes this approach as “playing a different ball game”.  The conversation about patience Innovation does not happen overnight. Real change takes time and that takes real patience. Brian also points out that organizations need to be having a bigger conversation, about what else needs to change to make real innovation flourish inside the organization. Hint: it's generally more than you bargained for.  As he says “Corporations are doing exactly what they should be doing...They figured out a business model that works and they're executing and optimizing that particular business model...And to radically change that, the people, the resources, the compensation, all of that stuff has to kind of morph or change to play in a different environment. And so I think that's where the challenge really begins.” Often people think innovation is about the idea, but it's a much, much longer conversation. That is, in fact, the first “Myth of Innovation” from Scott Berkun's excellent book: The Myth that innovation is about an epiphany, not hard work. It was a real treat to have a conversation with Brian about some of these key issues...I hope you enjoy the episode and happy innovating! Brian on the Web: https://insideoutside.io/ https://twitter.com/ardinger https://www.nxxt.co/ Innovation Leadership Models from the Mural Webinar https://blog.mural.co/innovation-leadership Mapping Innovation by Greg Satell https://www.amazon.com/Mapping-Innovation-Playbook-Navigating-Disruptive/dp/1259862259 Download the Playbook for Free: https://www.gregsatell.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Mapping-Innovation-Playbook.pdf Horizontal Evolution https://evolutionnews.org/2015/08/horizontal_gene/ An amazing summary from Scott Berkun about his solid book, Myths of Innovation: https://scottberkun.com/2013/ten-myths-of-innnovation/ A few more gems from Greg Satell on the Rules and questions central to innovation: https://medium.com/@digitaltonto/on-december-9th-1968-a-research-project-funded-by-the-us-department-of-defense-launched-a-ee063b7585f0 https://hbr.org/2013/02/before-you-innovate-ask-the-ri Transcription: Daniel: Welcome to the conversation factory. Brian, I'm glad we made the time to make this happen. Um, the reason I'm excited to talk to you is, is that not everybody is, is open or interested in the, the analogy that a company has to have a conversation with the outside world that they can't just, you know, put up some walls and just figure everything out inside those four walls that they have to go outside and have a dialogue with the world in lots of different ways. And the way you do that is, is through helping companies think about inside innovation versus outside innovation, which is my way of like teeing up the how you, how do you talk about what you do with people when you, when you meet people, like how do you contextualize what it is that you do? Brian: Well, I think a lot of things, uh, Daniel around this particular topic, it's this whole inside/ outside innovation. It's kind of come to us over the years of working first on the outside with startups and trying to understand how do they develop new ideas and, and build things. And then, uh, you know, as I was having conversations with startups and helping them navigate that, I kept having conversations with corporations and bigger companies saying, you know, how are you doing this? How are you taking these early stage companies and through an accelerator program and that, and, and kind of getting them traction in that faster than we can do in our own walls. And so that started to have conversations with the corporations and the people inside organizations and saying, hey, how can we interact with the outside world and, and think and move and act more like a startup or, uh, become a little bit more adaptive in how we do that. So I think it was an evolution of just having conversations and figuring out what's working, what's not working in this world of change and disruption that we're living in. Daniel: Yeah. So like there's two layers here, which I think are interesting to unpack. I've learned this new term, the idea of an accelerated work environment and this idea of like, let's speed up the conversation about innovation and let's not just put our feet up and look into space and hope a great idea comes to us. Like, let's structure it and let's do it faster. And so can you talk a little bit about like how you structure an accelerator? Like what does it mean to accelerate people through the innovation process from your approach? Brian: Yeah, so I think a lot of it, like when I go in and talk to bigger companies, first thing I like to do is kind of do a level set of what does innovation even mean to the people in the room. Uh, because innovation has become such a word that's, you know, so limp, so to speak. It can mean anything to anybody. Uh, and so kind of understanding that level set of what does innovation mean to the company? How do they define it? Um, is it transformational innovation where it's, you know, we've got to become the next Uber and disrupt our industry? Or is it a innovation from the standpoint of value creation where we're looking at ways to optimize and incrementally improve what we're building? And so from that perspective, you know, it's, once you have that level set, then you can start thinking about, well, how, what are the particular tactics that you can work through depending on what kind of objectives you want to have and, and what you're trying to accomplish. Brian: So I think that's the first place we start. And then how we do that. Um, again, I think a lot of is trying to help them understand that you've got to place a lot of bets on innovation and innovation is not, um, you know, it's by default working in the new, it's working in this area of gray and this area of uncertainty, Daniel: which means there's got to be failure, right? Like there's going to have to be failure. Brian: Yeah. So, yeah, this uncertainty by default, requires you to figure out and make assumptions and, work through this... Areas of the unknown. And that's very difficult for, a lot of folks to work through. You know, especially at companies and people who are used to having a plan or having an execution model that, that they just execute on. Corporations are doing exactly what they should be doing...They figured out a business model that works and they're executing and optimizing that particular business model… Brian: And to radically change that, the people, the resources, the compensation, all of that stuff has to kind of morph or change to play in a different environment. And so I think that's where the challenge really begins. Daniel: So...I'm comfortable with taking this seemingly simple question of like, we want to innovate more and turning it into this, really stretching it out into a much more complicated conversation. Like I'm wondering if people you deal with ever get frustrated with, (you): "well, Brian, you're just making this complicated. Like, we just want to innovate. Just teach us how to innovate. Let's get started." Versus like, let's talk about your strategic goals. Like I can see how some people might get a little impatient with the, with the bigger picture, with the strategic thinking approach. Brian: Sure. Yeah. And I think, and I think it doesn't have to take a long time on to go through that particular process, but I think if you don't start off on that common definition, then you run the risk later on. And you know, why are we doing this? Why is it not working? You know, we said that, uh, you know, we need to have x, Y, z outcome and these brand new bets that you're putting on the table are not getting us an outcome that we want. Um, but you know, without having that definition, then it's sometimes hard to know if you're playing the right game to begin with. So I think, so the, the process itself of level setting I don't think takes a long time to, to make that happen. And I think, but I do think in general, to change a culture or to move the company towards having that innovation mindset set or innovation as a competency to so to speak, does take a long time. Um, but you can do that through a variety of tactics and in ways that doesn't, um, change, change it all overnight. You know, it doesn't have to be something where, um, you know, you're basically creating something brand new and, and throwing out everything that you've done in the past and, and hoping that the new thing works. Uh, it's really a series of iterative bets that you kind of de-risked these new ideas as you're, as you're approaching them into the world and seeing what happens. Daniel: Yeah. Now, now here's the, the piece that I think that, that we were talking about that's interesting is that companies can innovate through outside acquisitions or through outside collaborations, like through working with startups. And maybe that makes it seem "like, wow, that's neat, there is an easier way to do this". we don't have to do it all ourselves. We can, we can turn outwards and see, uh, not just learn from other people, but actually like bring that outside innovation inside. Like, and that seems to me like, uh, a complicated process to navigate. Like how do you facilitate, how do you facilitate that conversation and make it smooth for people? Brian: Yeah. So I think, at least for a lot of folks, you know, the idea of looking outside is not become, it's not a novel concept anymore. You know, maybe five or six years ago it was like, oh, what's one of these things called startups out there? And you know, we're, we're seeing more and more hearing more and more about it. So it's, it's not a novel concept that, hey, the ability for two women in the garage or in a dorm room to spin up something and get some traction and create something of huge value in the world...that's, that's there and that's not going away. And that's speeding up. And so I think, uh, that, uh, first part of the conversation happening, having people understand that, people have the power and tools and capabilities and access to markets and cheap technology, et Cetera, to really disrupt things is there. Brian: So if we understand that, then what can we do to kind of help navigate that? And, and I think the first thing is just, you know, raise your hand and say, Hey, there are things going on outside. Let's, uh, let's take an inventory or a map on discover what's going on...and one of the, pitfalls I see a lot of companies jump into is let's look in our industry. You know, what's happening in our industry. And that's great, and that you should do that of course. But, um, that's also probably where 99% of your competitors are also playing in that same field. And so I find a lot of times it helps to look at adjacent industries or industries far and away, uh, different from your own to see what's going on, and look for clues or models or technologies or, or talent that may give you a different advantage, if you put those pieces together differently than playing, in the same ball game as your competitors are playing. So, you know, I, I see a lot of people going to these conferences and looking for startups in the fintech space and all you have are corporations in the Fintech area looking at Fintech startups where a lot of times I think, it's better to maybe go to a more of a horizontal conference and looking at AI or uh, you know, different types of data conferences and that would give you a different perspective on how those technologies could be used in your industry or in somebody else's, industry, for example. Daniel: Do you have a story like, cause it's funny as you're telling me the story, like I'm realizing this is, this is the classic innovators trick, right? Which is, yeah, it's, and it's a classic trick from nature, right? Which is, people don't realize that evolution isn't just, um, vertical where you adapt and survive. But there's horizontal transfer of, of genes in nature. Like literally the reason we have mitochondria is because we ate them, you know, a billion years ago. And all of the energy in our bodies is made by an alien organism that has its own DNA, which I find a very, it's always just like an extraordinary fact. Um, but you know, and I've been telling my clients this for a long time too. Like what do you, do you have, uh, a story to share of a surprising transfer of, of innovation from industry to industry in case there's any doubters in the world. Brian: Yeah, it's, let, I'm trying to think of one off the top of my head, but I know I've seen it on the reverse side. For example, we've seen, because I run a conference called inside, outside/innovation. And, one of the things we do is we, uh, go out and find startups in a variety of different markets, bring them to a showcase and then bring corporations around to kind of see what they're building and why and hopefully make some connections for that. And where I've seen it happen is a lot of times where, a startup will be working in a particular vertical market, early stage, uh, and they think they've got a solution in, you know, retail or whatever, and a corporation conversation will come around and they'll say, hey, I love your technology, but you're looking in the retail space. Did you know that you could apply this to insurance? Brian: And the light bulb will kind of go off in the entrepreneur's mind. It's like, oh, this is an opportunity for me to potentially go into a different market or get traction with an early customer that I didn't have before. And so I need to happen that way. Um, and I'm sure the reverse could happen as well where a corporation, uh, is, you know, looking at a variety of startups out there and say, hey, that startup's, not in our industry, but we could definitely apply that technology to what we're doing and leverage it in some way. Daniel: So that actually sparks, I mean, I definitely, I want to make sure we talk about the conference before we, before we leave, but in a way, like you said, this thing that was really interesting about startups, you know, they're, they're trying to, uh, you know, iterate and build their own, um, you know, their own growth engine. Right? Um, I would imagine that some of them are not necessarily open to this idea of like, well look, we're, we've got our roadmap and we're trying to build our own flywheel and move it, get that moving. This, they may not be open to this, this pivot or this expansion. Uh, there's like, oh, you know, well, we're just focusing on market X and like, do you want me to also like expand our, our code base so that we can also take advantage of, of why and collaborate with these guys. Like I how do you sort of, I know you've done a lot of work on building community through, through the conference. Like how do you find startups are expanding their perspectives to being open to this collaborative conversation versus like, nope, we're just doing our thing. Brian: Yeah. And I think a lot of it depends on where the startup is in their lifecycle. A lot of the folks that we bring in are probably seed stage and so they, they haven't figured out their business model. They haven't figured out the exact markets sometimes. Uh, and they're looking for that early traction. And you know, one of the reasons we hold this in the Midwest is because, you know, venture capital and the traditional ways of kind of scaling a business in Silicon Valley don't exist out here. And so you've got to find customers. You've got to find ways to, um, to, to get that early traction. And a lot of that means, you know, getting out and finding those early customers. And so having conversations with customers, uh, real people out there and trying to define what problems are out there in the marketplace and then create a solution, uh, to meet those problems and then meet the market where it's at, I think is more effective way a lot of times in the Midwest here or in places outside of your core tech hubs that don't have the, the against the, um, the advantage of getting a venture capital and being able to have a year or two young, two year runway to figure out, uh, how, where that market is. Brian: So I think, I think so part of that is that, um, I think when I'm talking to start ups, you know, I put my "accelerate" hat on and working as a person who is helping startups through that process, a lot of times I'll quite frankly tell them to stay away from corporates until they, until they figured out some of that stuff. Cause it's very easy to go down the rabbit hole of um, hey, if we just get this one big customer on our plate, we'll be good to go. But a lot of times you know that the timing of the two types of organizations don't match up and it can very, very easily kill start up really pretty quickly. Daniel: Yeah. And it can kill them in that what they're, they're focusing, they'd lose their focus or their, they spread themselves too thin. You know, so like what, what sort of, I think beautiful about what you do is that there's this symmetry in a way you have a community driven approach to innovation through the conference you do building community, but building community so that you have a group of startups who are interested in this type of thinking so that companies can have an innovation community. So they're not just going it alone, that they have a view to what's, what's open in the world for them. I mean, I guess my question is like, have you always been so community driven? Like how did you come to value community as an approach, as in a solution to, to these challenges that you're seeing? Brian: So, I mean, I guess I've always felt community is, is a way to accelerate your learning. Uh, and I think early stage ideas, no matter what they are, whether they're inside a startup or inside a corporation, the key to a lot of those taking place in actually taking hold is that the speed of learning. How fast can you, um, take your assumptions and navigate those and understand where you're on the right track or not, and, um, get to that next stage that you need to get to. So, um, community's always been away from me, uh, personally and otherwise to help accelerate those learnings, whether it's, you know, again, connecting somebody to somebody else who can, uh, an expert in a different field or, um, someone who can help me navigate to something else that I didn't know I needed. Um, and so I think it started from that perspective and it started because, uh, you know, quite frankly, when I started a lot of this stuff seven, eight years ago, uh, the, you know, entrepreneurship and startups were, were smaller, uh, both, you know, nationally as well as in our own backyard. Brian: And so part of it was like, well, if we're going to do this, we're going to, we can't do it all are ourselves. So how do we create a community that allows startups to raise their hand and first say, Hey, I want to be entrepreneurial. I want to try some things. I want to build something. In my backyard. Yeah. And then what do I need and what am I missing and how do I then can be that catalyst to help, um, folks figure that out. Uh, and so it was an evolution of just having conversations, going to different cities, uh, meeting different people, starting a podcast, you know, telling stories, um, you know, starting a new newsletter and then, uh, eventually a conference and everything else around it. Um, and then all the while, you know, consulting and helping companies kind of figure it out on both sides. Brian: And, um, it's been fun. It's been fun to see that journey and continue to figure out what the, what the next phase is as we build it out. Daniel: Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess I'd begs the question, what is, what's the next phase? Can you talk about it? Is it Secret? Brian: Yeah, no! Um, so yeah, so inside, outside innovation, you know, we started four years ago actually with the podcast and the original idea was it was called inside, outside, and it was an inside look at startups outside the valley with the idea that their stories, outside the tech hubs that need to be told and how can we help our entrepreneurs, uh, figure that stuff out. And so that's where it started. And again, it'll happen with further conversations as, as we built that particular audience and had conversations around those particular topics, we kept getting asked by innovators in bigger companies, you know, it's like, how are we doing this? Brian: How, how's this working? We want to be connected to startups. We want to understand this new way of innovating things like design thinking and lean startup in that work, uh, becoming methodologies and tactics that could apply to, you know, start ups outside of a big corporation or, or startups within a corporation that were trying to spin up new ideas. So through that we started the inside outside innovation podcast as the, as the way to have those conversations and talk about corporate innovation and how we're corporate matching with startups and how corporate venture play out differently and how we're internal innovation accelerators popping up all around. And what were the different tactics that folks were using through that. We've kind of created this weird community. It's almost like two communities, but the, the advantages by bringing them together, they both learned from each other. So that's kind of how, that's how it's kind of evolved. What's next? We're trying to figure out the third year of the insight off the innovation summit. Uh, we haven't got the dates and, and that solidify, but it's looking like we're probably going to do it sometime in the end of October. I'm in the process, I'm looking at writing a book around this concept of collaborative and innovation and this innovation as a competency. And then, um, we'll just continue with the podcast and the newsletter and keep growing our conversations with great people out there. Daniel: You know, Brian, it's really, it's, I mean it's, it's lovely to talk to you about this stuff because, you know, the, the ecological approach you have to this, to this processes, you know, it's, it's clearly organic. Like, like anything else, it's starting a conversation and then you've gotten feedback from the world and over time you've, you've built more than you've added to it. Like it's, it's a, it's just guy. It's a wave that is sort of, it has its ups and downs clearly. But you're just continuing to, to ride that wave, which was really awesome. Brian: What the, it comes back to, you know, my feeling is that obviously with the world changing in the, in the speed of change that's happening out there, everybody is going to have to take on some of the skillsets of, of the early innovator. You know, again, a startup entrepreneur or, um, or innovator are going to have to have kind of core capabilities or characteristics that allow you to adapt and be nimble and, and, uh, execute. Daniel: Unless you want a robot to do your job! Brian: Yeah. That's executing different ways that, that you didn't have or that were different in the way that you could execute in the past. So things like, you know, curiosity having a bias towards learning characteristics like having a, an a customer focus and this bias towards problem solving for that customer. You know, the, the skill of collaboration and you know, knowing that you can't build everything yourself. Brian: There's bias towards team, um, you know, some of the characteristics of just speed, you know, how can you have this bias towards action and experimentation. And then finally having kind of the reverse of that you are having patience and that bias towards that long term value creation. You know, I think those are some of the core concepts that make up, um, this new world that we're living in. And the more individuals, whether you're, you know, a traditional manager or a entrepreneurial founder, those are the skillsets that are going to take you to the next level in the world that we're living in. Daniel: It sounds like a good book already, Brian. I don't know. I like it. Brian: I'm still outlining. Daniel: It sounds like a pretty good proposal to me. Um, so listen, I, I, we're, we're up against our, our, our time together. Uh, is there anything I haven't asked you about that I should, that we should talk about? Any, any, any final thoughts? Brian: Yeah, I'm curious for, you've obviously been in the space of helping people have conversations and that I'm always curious to understand what have you learned from helping companies and people kind of navigate a, this world of change, uh, and in this world of innovation, what are some of the things that are obstacles or things that stand out that, uh, I could take back to my audience as well? Well, Daniel: I mean, do you have a hard stop in the next three minutes because, no, go ahead. We can go over a little bit. Well, I mean, for me, what really resonated in what you were talking about is the necessity for patients. And I think this is one thing that's really, really hard, um, for people because we want to go fast and we want to have results. Um, but we also need to slow things down. So one of the things that like I'm becoming more aware of in my own work is psychological safety, which people, you know, Google identified as like the main characteristic of effective teams. The ability, the willingness, the openness to saying what's happening, to be able to speak your mind, to say what's right or to say what's wrong. And that, I don't know, that stuff doesn't really come for free. Uh, it's a really, you have to cultivate that environment. Daniel: And so for me, you know, my angle and entry point is always that somebody, somebody has to design that conversation. Um, if a group of, you know, if a group of people is gonna talk about what we're going to do next and how to innovate, we can either contribute content or we can contribute process. Um, if the, to me, the most important and precious conversation is when a group of people is coming together, the fact that you're willing to, that you have a framework, I'm guessing, to stretch out the conversation about what's our innovation roadmap and where are we placing our bets allows people to say like, okay, what's my holistic view of this? It creates, it creates safety, right? It creates a moment where, where we can have the conversation about innovation, we can have the conversation about how we're gonna brainstorm. Daniel: We can have the conversation about how we're going to, uh, evaluate ideas and how we know if they're good or not. Um, and so for me, I think, um, I feel like I'm ranting now, but I was at a problem framing workshop, uh, with my, my friend Jay Malone, who has a company called new haircut. They do a lot of design sprint training and he was teaching a problem framing workshop. And at the end of the workshop, he presented, uh, you know, on one hand, a very straightforward, like, here, this is what problem framing is in the essence. Like, uh, who has the problem, uh, why does it matter? Um, when does it happen? Uh, like, you know, think about like, where to play and how to win. And this one woman said like, well, yeah, what about, uh, uh, how do we know when it's been solved? You know, how do we know if it's working? And this is, I think one of the biggest challenges with, with companies is we don't know like what good looks like. We don't know when to start. We don't know how to stop working and grinding it out. Um, well, and the metrics Brian: are so different from existing business model versus a new business model that you don't even know who the customers are and the value proposition you're creating at the beginning. Daniel: Yeah. So I mean, for me, like I find the, one of the biggest challenges of innovation is that people bring me in to say like, okay, let's help this team coach through this process. Meanwhile, they've already got a job that takes 100% of their time. Um, and they look at me and they're like, this guy has just given us extra work to do. You know, the workshop that I come in is taking them away from their quote unquote real job. The, the work that I asked them to do to go out and do the interviews and to, to get customer contact looks like it's taking away time for them. And so this idea that that innovation's like something you can buy or pay someone else to do. To me, I want people to be earning their own innovation. But the problem is that most people are at 110% capacity. Daniel: And You bring in somebody like me who says, okay, let's do some design thinking stuff. Let's do a, you know, even if it's a week long sprint, which doesn't give you everything you need, you know, if it's a six week process, it's people are like, Oh man, that was great, but oh, that was hard and I never want to do that again. It's like, it's really, really challenging to get people to find time to innovate. And that's frustrating to me. Brian: Absolutely. Daniel: As a person who just really wants people to get their hands dirty with it so that they value it and, and participated in it. So, I don't know. I don't know what the balance is there. That's... I don't know. I don't know if that's a question with an answer, but Brian: I don't know if there's a clear answer for that one. No, no. Daniel: that, oh, so, yeah, I mean that, that's, that's, that's my perspective. I don't know if that, if that's helpful to you at all, but that's, that's… Brian: Very much so, very much so. Daniel: Is there, is there anything else we should I this, this is definitely the shortest episode. You know, I'm, I'm sort of enjoying or slash you know, floundering in the, in the 30 minute time zone. So I just want to make sure that we've covered everything that you want to cover … Brian: No, it's been great, thanks for having me on the show and the opportunity to talk about insideoutside.io and everything we're doing. Daniel: Yeah. So like that's the, that's the final question. Like where, uh, where can people find all things insideoutside and Brian Ardinger on the Internet. Brian: Yeah. Thanks Daniel. Yeah. So, uh, obviously you can go to the website insideoutside.io that has our podcast, our newsletters sign up for that. Um, and obviously I'm very, um, out there on Twitter and Linkedin in that happy to have conversations. So reach out and say hi. Daniel: Well we will do that. Um, Brian, I really appreciate you taking the time. It's really, it's always interesting to have some patience and just slow down and have some of these conversations about this stuff, that's I think really, really important. Like you said, the future is unwritten and uncertain and all of us need to have skills of adaptability, the inside and I think both sides of the ecosystem that you're a co-creating - the innovator, the startups need to learn from big companies how to scale and big companies need to learn from startups, how to be more nimble. So I think it's really a really important dialogue that you're facilitating. It's really cool. Brian: Thanks for having me on the show!

Nich is a 28-year-old convert to the church and has been married to Kelsey for almost 2 years now. Father to the almost 1-year-old Evelynn. Having dealt with depression and ADHD for most of my life but not getting diagnosed and treatment until my mid-20's caused a lot of problems that were not approached until they were deeply ingrained. Overcoming those problems while also learning marriage and fatherhood has brought the issues to the forefront where the work has been done and continues to be done.Kelsey is a 26-year-old from Provo, UT (born, raised, and still living there and an active member of the Church). She and Nich have been married just shy of two years and are the parents of an 11-month-old baby girl. She struggles with high stress and anxiety, which combined with Nich's depression and ADHD projects a steep learning curve in motherhood and wife-hood (wife-ing?). As the daughter of Dan and Julie, she has been following Dan's research and culture-changing methods for years and says "Dan may not be involved in the day-to-day of our relationship, but his ideas certainly are."[music]0:00:05 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthened their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:28 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, we have in studio my daughter and son-in-law, and they're gonna be talking about navigating communication while struggling with anxiety and depression. So we wanna welcome you here and appreciate you taking the time. They actually volunteered, they said they wanted to talk about this, so I appreciate them being vulnerable and willing to share their personal experiences about the difficulties and maybe even successes of dealing with anxiety and depression in the relationship and how you navigate those discussions. So let me turn it over to Kelsey and Nich and have you introduce yourself and tell us some more details about your struggles.0:01:17 Kelsey: Well, we've been listening in on and learning about what my dad talks about through the groups that he does and stuff like that and we wanted to be a part of this if we could. I'm Kelsey, my husband is Nich and we have an 11th month old cute little girl. And...0:01:43 Daniel: She is cute. [chuckle]0:01:45 Kelsey: And we live in Utah in Provo, we're both active members of the Church.0:01:52 Nich: We just renewed our temple recommends actually before we came out.0:01:56 Kelsey: Yes, we did. We were visiting Dan, my dad, and my mom in California and so we get this opportunity to be together today.0:02:06 Nich: Yeah.0:02:07 Daniel: You wanna tell us more, Nich?0:02:09 Nich: Yeah, I am a convert to the Church, grew up in a non-denominational house, and then when I was almost 20, so about eight years ago, I joined the Church and varying levels of activities since then but we actually met on the mission.0:02:28 Kelsey: Yeah, we served our mission, missions, is it plural or singular?0:02:33 Nich: Singular, yeah.0:02:34 Kelsey: We served our mission in Seattle, Washington. So we were in the same MTC group, actually, so we started at the same time and then I got home five-and-a-half months before he did. So that's kind of a fun aspect of our relationship. We have the mission to share with each other. And Nich mentioned that he joined the Church about eight years ago. I'm 26, he's 28. So that's about where we are in life.0:03:05 Daniel: Yes. So who's, I realize there's a bleed of emotions here, or not bleeding, but an overlap rather. Who's the one who struggles with anxiety and who's the one who struggles with depression?0:03:20 Kelsey: I struggle with anxiety and Nich has the...0:03:24 Nich: We could go both. We could say both.0:03:26 Kelsey: Grand experience of having both.0:03:27 Daniel: I, thank you, that's absolutely true but Nich is the one who struggles predominantly with depression and anxiety is Kelsey. So, you've been married for how long?0:03:41 Nich: One month short of two years.0:03:43 Kelsey: Yeah.0:03:44 Nich: So almost two years.0:03:45 Kelsey: One month short of two years.0:03:45 Nich: So, mathematically our daughter was born eight days before our first anniversary.0:03:51 Kelsey: Yup. [chuckle]0:03:53 Daniel: So tell us about what it's been like? Now, let's start in your dating phase. So you guys knew each other on the mission. We don't necessarily need... You weren't dating on the mission, but I think you had exposure to each other's personalities there. But let's focus more on the dating phase. Did you, how did you navigate anxiety and depression? Was it something that was present in the dating phase?0:04:20 Kelsey: Well, I think we had a sense of what each other kind of struggled with just from knowing each other on the mission. I knew that Nich had things he was working on... I mean, then elder Henry, it's weird to refer to him in that now, but I knew he had things he was working on, 'cause when we were on MTC together, he would get called down and go and have a session with his therapist there or what I thought was probably a therapist, I'd kind of fill in the blanks. So we knew a little bit that we struggled then. Actually on our first date, I remember saying some of my struggles and then saying, I cannot play therapist girlfriend, so I cannot be just, like if I'm gonna be in a relationship with you, it needs to be... I can't just play the emotional help card.0:05:11 Daniel: So, Kelsey, let me pause there 'cause the audience doesn't know who you are and I understand why you said that, but hearing that for the first time, I think will sound a little cold. You wanna give it a little background on why you said on the first date you're not gonna play therapist girlfriend, do you mind sharing a little bit about that?0:05:28 Kelsey: Yeah. So the reason why I said that is 'cause I'd had previous relationships where my boyfriend had some pretty deep struggles and I assigned myself the responsibility for his emotions. And I've always taken that as I was self-sacrificing and I'm helping and I need to be there for them but I would... All of their emotional struggles were suddenly my responsibility, and I think that can be really loving, but I also found that it was really tiring and that I put an unhealthy load on myself. Yeah, it was just an unhealthy amount of responsibility I assigned to myself, that I needed to be the one to help them navigate all of their emotional struggles.0:06:25 Daniel: You put a 110% into your relationships. And a couple of the boyfriends that you had previously struggled with severe depression, and there was definitely that... I'm gonna use the term "co-dependency," That enmeshment, where you felt a lot of responsibility for their emotions. So, here, meeting Nich, recognizing he's very open about his depression, he made that clear. And you're pragmatic, so you don't mince your words, but it wasn't... I guess, let me ask. Nich, I wasn't there. Was that a shock to hear Kelsey say that?0:07:00 Nich: I wouldn't say it was a shock. It was actually, in my opinion, quite refreshing. Because in my past, I had had people try to do that to me, and I think both Kelsey and I struggled with co-dependency in previous relationships. And having that honesty at that moment showed that this would be something more than just a nice, fun relationship. It would be something that would, actually, be a serious relationship that we wanted to have and that would help both of us with that, and not help each other in bad ways.0:07:32 Kelsey: Yeah, we jumped into being pretty serious pretty quickly. And "serious" is a vague word, but we were okay with being really emotionally open really fast. Once he got home from his mission, we started going on dates. And I think part of that was just that we were really willing to be open with each other about the struggles that we had, and along with... See, you said that me saying right off the bat that I didn't wanna be a therapist girlfriend was cold, along with...0:08:11 Daniel: Just the way you said it here. I just didn't want the audience...0:08:13 Kelsey: Right, yes. [chuckle]0:08:15 Daniel: "I don't know who you are, Nich, but I'm not gonna be your therapist girlfriend."[chuckle]0:08:18 Daniel: I just want the audience to know that that's not what went down.0:08:21 Kelsey: No, no, there was some background with that, and I had a follow-up comment.0:08:26 Daniel: "Great, you wanna go out to dinner now?"[chuckle]0:08:29 Kelsey: Oh, I said with that... 'Cause we continued to have a conversation about that, 'cause it was... We felt it was gonna be a big thing to navigate in our relationship. But part of the conversation then was that I didn't want to assign myself the responsibility for all of his emotional struggles in that unhealthy way that I had before. But at the same time, I told him that I wanted him to know that I wanted to hear about it when he was struggling, I didn't want him to feel like he was alone.0:09:05 Daniel: That's a great, great clarification. You weren't abandoning him, you weren't saying, "I'm not gonna be a part of this." You were saying, "I wanna do this right. I'm gonna learn how to do this in a healthy way." And that's Evelyn, your daughter, in the background. Everybody can hear.0:09:21 Kelsey: She's looking at us funny, 'cause we're wearing headphones. [chuckle]0:09:25 Daniel: Yeah. And so, I think that was a very appropriate thing to do. And Nich, you were saying, that was refreshing. What was your experience like in previous relationships?0:09:38 Nich: Not good, but that's because most of my relationships before that had happened in high school, which no one's had a great relationship in high school, except for the very rare people. And so, it felt a lot more mature and adult in that sense. And that's what made it so refreshing, was it didn't feel like I'd be dating someone that wasn't emotionally mature at all, but someone that was comfortable in who they were and what they actually wanted in their life and relationships at the time.0:10:10 Daniel: So, why was it distracting or not helpful in your relationship for others to feel like they had to save you? Or... I don't wanna put words in your mouth. What was difficult about those relationships where they were taking that responsibility?0:10:27 Nich: It was enabling. I felt...0:10:29 Daniel: You recognize that?0:10:30 Nich: Yeah. In retrospect, I recognize that. At the time, I'm an idiot and don't recognize it.0:10:37 Daniel: I wouldn't say that, but it is hard to recognize that in the moment.0:10:41 Nich: I personally was an idiot. If anyone else is feeling that, that's up to them to decide what that feels like. But really, looking back on it, it was super enabling, and it made it easy for me to subconsciously manipulate my way through the relationship in that sense, then.0:11:00 Daniel: So, what did you do? You had a few dates, testing up the relationship. Tell us how it started to develop.0:11:07 Kelsey: Well, at the risk of just sounding super Mormon-y, one of the reasons that we were okay with being so emotionally serious so fast is because we both felt really strongly in a spiritual way, the Spirit prompted us that we were meant to really dive into this relationship and really try to make it work. And we felt pretty soon into the relationship, probably less than a month, that, "This," in Nich's words, "could be it." Search could be over, we could make this work long-term and be together and get married and raise a family. And so, that was the guiding force, factor, in the beginning of our relationship, was just, we really wanted to dive in and follow what we felt like God would want us to do with each other and for each other.0:12:01 Daniel: So, you set these healthy boundaries at the beginning, you felt the Spirit in your life, and I would call that authentic, super-Mormon-y. Gosh, I'm gonna struggle speaking today. I get what you're saying there, but it sounds very authentic. You both were praying about this, you're trying to figure it out. You liked each other, you established those healthy boundaries. So was it easy from there on out?0:12:30 Kelsey: No, not at all.0:12:32 Daniel: So what was the... Well, go ahead, go ahead.0:12:35 Kelsey: I think when anybody's dating even if you're really emotionally mature and are open with each other, there's things that don't fully get opened up because you're dating... You're learning about each other, you don't just... You're not an open box right, right from the start. And in all honesty... We were engaged by Easter, so we started dating in after Christmas time, and then we were engaged by Easter, so it was pretty quick. So, obviously, we couldn't have known everything about each other's emotional struggles and how to navigate that. And then less than a year into marriage, add the responsibility of a baby into there. So no, it hasn't. It's definitely been bumpy, trying to navigate each other's way of thinking and emotional needs and that's, I guess, that's kind of what we wanna focus today.0:13:27 Daniel: Yeah, so share with us the first time in your dating relationship this became an issue, issue meaning you're facing the realities of depression and anxiety and how it was affecting your relationship. So the first part, when did you experience your first difficulty? However you wanna define that, whether it was major or something that you consciously had to navigate, what was that like and how did you navigate it?0:14:00 Kelsey: So I would say the first one was, and correct me if I'm wrong, Nich, but when we were... Because we knew that we could try to be pretty serious and that we were wanting to go towards getting engaged and getting married pretty early and actually Nich was having struggled feeling like he was accepted into my family because they didn't know him, right, they hadn't even met him. And all of a sudden it's like, I want you to meet Nich and we're probably gonna get married. And Nich had expressed to me once that growing up in a non-denominational Christian household, he had this idea that getting married to an LDS girl means being kept in this open arms LDS family and he felt a little bit judged, because my family was wary because we were getting together so quickly and they didn't even know who he was.0:15:00 Kelsey: So I would say that was probably the first struggle that we had to navigate is him not feeling like he was immediately accepted into my supposedly in traditional LDS family, which I don't think we're very traditional at all. If, I don't know how much Dan has shared in the podcast before, but Dennis, my step dad, and so I have two sets of parents that are both wonderful, and so that's in and of itself, not very traditional. And Nich wasn't feeling very accepted by any of the four of them plus my sisters for a while there. And I think that's probably... That first time we had to navigate through.0:15:36 Daniel: Yeah, and I'll speak from the perspective of the family and that was accepting, I think, we were pretty accepting, I think, we were very cautious because we didn't know Nich and we knew the struggles with depression and the tendency for you to date with individuals with depression. And I wanna pause there real quick, 'cause again, we have a variety of listeners and when we talk about anxiety and depression, I think it might be good to put a level on that. And so it's not just your common anxiety. Kelsey, you clarify, there's a high level, you're a high-functioning very anxious person. And Nich, how would you describe your depression?0:16:20 Nich: I would say that I typically am very high functioning with it. I do still struggle with suicidal thoughts occasionally, and Kelsey I have talked about that, not as much as we probably should thinking about it, but I've attempted suicide in the past. It's made it that there are days that I just feel completely shut down but I can still get out of bed, I can still do things. So it's not to that level and it never has been, but it's a lot more emotionally taxing. And then you mix that with me being a pretty severe introvert where I can get socially tired listening to a podcast, that it makes it nearly impossible in those moments to want to reach out and talk to anyone because I feel like I'm already exhausted from my depression, just talking to someone's gonna make it even more tiring.0:17:10 Daniel: Yes, yes and we were aware of that, and so we weren't actually at the time aware of how severe the depression was but we knew that we were being cautious and so rightfully so, you're absolutely correct. There was a concern for us and we didn't know Nich and it wasn't that we didn't wanna accept him in and it was just who is he and we were concerned. Were you getting pulled into another relationship that you felt like you to care and you were showing signs of maturity, way beyond your previous relationships. And I think that put a lot of ease in to Mom and I's side of it. Yeah, that we...0:17:47 Kelsey: I think because of the other relationships, I right off the bat, recognized that there was the potential for me to want to become the what I had been named the therapist girlfriend, the caretaker girlfriend, the emotional support system for everything that depression, anxiety, and actually ADHD, all piles up together. And so we knew going into it, I didn't know the depth. And I think we're still learning the depth of what each other is struggling with emotionally but we knew going into it, that there would be... That we would need to be able to focus on those kind of differences and that we needed to do it while still remaining healthy, and that I wanted to make sure that I didn't simply... How do I word that? The word that just keeps coming to me is assigning unnecessary responsibility.0:18:41 Daniel: That's huge. It is very hard to communicate that because in a relationship you care about each other. And the last thing you wanna see is the other person suffering, and that is difficult when somebody struggles with anxiety or depression, you wanna rescue them, that's a very natural... Or you wanna make it more comfortable or you wanna be... You want your love to be able to heal and uplift that person and it is hard to describe. And that's why we generally use the words or phrases setting healthy boundaries which we were seeing, and we were very impressed. And it sounds like, Nich, you were appreciating that. So what was one of these times, at the beginning of your relationship where you had to really focus on being mindful with these boundaries?0:19:33 Kelsey: I'm remembering right after we got married, or not right, before we got married, actually, Nich was trying to navigate. He had done some school before his mission and he was trying to navigate what life choices he wanted to make now, the big life decisions. Like do I want to go to school so I wanna go to a trade school, do I wanna, how am I gonna start a career? And obviously with having, being majorly introverted, so the whole build up a network and make all these friends was not his cup of tea at all, that was an nope right out of that one, but he also didn't wanna just sit around and do nothing and stew, because that builds up anxiety, which depression and anxiety are such friends with that. You wanna talk more about how you were feeling then, 'cause that was a big thing?0:20:20 Nich: Yeah, 'cause I made it so much worse, because it was... At the time I was 25, 26-ish, and I had done some school before and failed miserably at it, for a lot of mental health issues, and not knowing exactly what I wanted to do is my life but felt like, well, that's what you do after you graduate high school, you go to college. And so we had that, and I simply felt that there was nothing that I was qualified to do and that anything I did choose to do schooling-wise or anything would take several years, I wouldn't be able to support the family and all of that. And it was a huge drain and when we were talking about it, I don't know if Kelsey remembers this, but I remember well, 'cause it was something I was thinking, but thinking that one of the things that I really wanted to do was make that decision for me and not... Let Kelsey help, let her inform and have her opinion, but that if it wasn't something that I chose to do and wanted to do that I really wouldn't be happy in whatever choice I made in that.0:21:36 Daniel: So you're recognizing that in your fear of the future, you didn't have clarity there, you didn't wanna fall into the habit of depending on Kelsey to guide through this, you had this desire to differentiate, is what we call it, and to make this decision on your own. That's an interesting experience because, with depression and setting healthy boundaries in this relationship, it's important to have that distinction, but there's also a risk that you're doing it all alone and not receiving help. Did you experience that?0:22:10 Kelsey: The first thing that comes to mind with that is that I like to have a plan. It eases my anxiety. I like to know exactly what's gonna happen and how I'm supposed to be involved with it. So, while I knew that he needed to make this decision on his own when... And he had a job then that he didn't really like, he worked with a hotel chain, which is a fine hotel chain, but this particular management wasn't awesome, so he would come home angry and not satisfied with where he was at, and I would just want him to make a plan for how he could be more positive, how he could move in the direction that he wanted to. And I kinda wanted to be able to...0:22:45 Daniel: Make Nich happy.0:22:46 Kelsey: Make Nich happy and lay out steps that would make it work, and like the now steps were, okay, well, you can only change you. And I would give them all of the motivational talk about that and then what do we wanna do to make it so that you can move out, maybe get out of this job or see if there's opportunity for promotion or whatever it is. And I wanted there to be a plan that eases my anxiety. And because he was expressing that he wanted to make this decision on his own, I was thinking, well, then, am I not allowed to say anything? This is all up in the air. It's making my anxiety spike so much and I wanna help you, but I also know that your emotions are your responsibility but I don't like feeling this tension between us, because you haven't figured your life out. It's really hard and I think all recently married couples kind of experience that, because usually you're still finishing school, or you've just finished school and you're figuring out what kinds of things feel like your life.0:23:43 Kelsey: And I was really worried about Nich, because he had told me that school was such a... Just a not good experience before his mission, and so we wanted to find something else, but me being someone who was like on the regular track, I went to high school, then went to BYU and graduated from BYU and so I was like, well, that doesn't make sense, you just do the thing so you can feel confident that you have the school you want. And I knew that he was gonna be a little less traditional with that and I didn't know how to help him navigate it, but I also wanted to help him not be so unsatisfied and hence depressed with the way that he was thinking, and so that was a huge... It still is kind of a big thing to navigate, even though he has more of a life plan now. I need to... My need for a plan makes it so that I bug him about it a lot, and that increases both of our anxiety, even though I'm trying to assuage mine.0:24:37 Daniel: Not knowing what Nich's plan was, was spiking your anxiety.0:24:40 Kelsey: Oh, a ton.0:24:41 Daniel: So you're dealing with a handful of things there, wanting Nich to be happy and help him while also managing your own anxiety. You don't know what's happening tomorrow, a year from now, we're getting married and we need to figure this out. And so you're trying to nail it down and trying to figure out what's your part? A great example there. So what was your experience like, Nich, in that experience?0:25:06 Nich: The big thing is, and Kelsey and I have talked about this several times since then, is that Kelsey needs to let me be happy in the way that I am happy. And that's really difficult, 'cause usually she gets so anxious about it 'cause it's like, but you need a plan that I like, which makes sense, you wanna plan that you like. That's what everyone wants in their life. But what we've had to navigate with that is that my way of going about and thinking about things isn't nearly as plan-oriented as hers is and it... That's difficult, but it's because I've set up a lot of plans in my past and they never came to fruition, and I felt really hurt by all of that and so I've been trying to figure out, okay, how do I set a goal and a plan without it actually not coming to fruition, therefore it really hurts.0:26:05 Daniel: Which feeds into your depression and your sense of failure.0:26:08 Nich: Bcause I'm like, "Well, I couldn't even accomplish that," and that's why I didn't wanna go to, why I was so apprehensive about school again and feeling that about a career was I've had all these major plans and failures in the past, that's just gonna repeat itself again because look at what's already happened, which getting married should have shown that not true to be... Not to be true, but...0:26:32 Kelsey: Something that comes to mind too, with all of this, is not only do I like to have a plan. A huge difference between me and Nich is that I like to talk things out until they make sense and I like to keep saying more words, even if we're talking to...0:26:50 Daniel: It's already getting overwhelming, isn't it?0:26:52 Kelsey: Until it makes sense, because that's how I like to plan, I like to be on the same page, and I feel like the best way to do that is to talk it out, but the way that Nich thinks is more, I'm not gonna say anything until this whole thing is more formulated in my mind. And so I'm sitting here like, why is isn't he saying anything, and why can't we have a conversation about this and why is he keeping all this from me, and he needs to do this by himself, but I wanna be in on it, and... And my thoughts are that fast. Just little fireballs. I don't know what he's thinking, and I want to, and I want to contribute to what he's thinking, and there's been a lot of times when I'll ask a lot of questions and then Nich will say, Kelsey, I'm thinking about this, I don't want you to think, I'm not thinking about it at all, I am I'm just not ready to formulate it into a conversation.0:27:43 Kelsey: And that stresses me out because I like talking things through, even when they don't make. Especially when they don't make sense to myself yet. I'll talk through something that I'm worried about till I'm blue in the face, and Nich will not say a word, and then I'll be like, "So what, so what are you thinking?" He's like, "A lot of things. I can't talk about it 'cause I'm thinking so many things you just laid a lot on me." So I'm a talker. He's a thinker, and I think out loud, and he thinks in his head. So those are very polarized when we... Especially if we're both feeling anxious. The more anxious I feel, the more I want to talk, the more anxious he feels, the less he wants to talk as the more he wants to just be like, just let me be by myself. I'm gonna put on noise canceling headphones and I don't hate you, but I want out.0:28:31 Daniel: Let me go think, give me room to think. So what did you do? So here, you're noticing these difficulties, not easy, it's very messy. What did you do, how did you or have you learned to navigate that in a way that's supportive of each other, and I'm not necessarily suggesting that your anxiety is going down. For example, one thing you said is Nich will say, "I can't talk about this, I'm definitely thinking about it." But that would spike your... So on one hand he's communicating, he's saying, I need you to back off. Let me... Give me some space here, which is great communication, but stressful to you because it's not the information that supports you. And so have you two found a way to navigate?0:29:23 Kelsey: Well, we even had to work up to... Like me being able to read that that's what he was saying 'cause sometimes he wouldn't actually say, "I can't do this right now. I can't have a conversation, but I am thinking about it." He would instead kinda just halt the conversation. He's continuing the conversation in his brain, but he would halt the conversation with me and either put on his ear buds or go into a different room, and I'm just like, "We weren't done, where are you going?" And he'd be like, "I was done with that conversation right now," and then I think that he just wants to drop it and he's being very uncaring and it's just, I'm saying all these things about how he's mad at me now, and he's annoyed. So we've had to work up to me knowing that what that means isn't, "I'm mad and you've offended me," but instead, "That's a lot to process. I'm thinking about it. I wanna shelve this conversation and start it up another time," and the more that I bring it up like, "Oh, have you thought about that yet?" Twenty minutes later, the more anxiety he has.0:30:22 Kelsey: And so I just have to... Okay, I realize now, it's hard for me, but I have to say, okay, I probably shouldn't bring this up again until he brings it up, which for me needing a little bit is going into our bedroom and saying a prayer and then I'm fine. For him, it could be, it could be 20 minutes if he really wants to talk about it, right then but it can also be five days, and five days is a really long time for someone who wants to talk about things right now.0:30:51 Daniel: Yes, it is.0:30:51 Kelsey: And we've had to build up to a spot where I'm getting to be a little bit more okay with him needing to shelf it and that's hard. And then I'm sure I make it harder for him when I keep bringing it up over and over and over again.0:31:10 Daniel: I appreciate what you said, though, you recognize that's what he needs and a mistake that a lot of couples make, and I'm sure his... It's a tendency, I don't... It's probably not fair to say it's a mistake, it's a very natural tendency to say, "Oh, Nich isn't talking to me. If he loved me, he would understand he needs to talk to me." And it becomes not about the depression, but the degree of love in the relationship, you start to assign degrees of love. Him walking away is an indicator he doesn't love me, and that's a dangerous place to be in, because it has very little to do with love when our minds are running wild, our depression's kicking in. Our anxiety's kicking in. So what I was hearing is you were consciously keeping it on the forefront of your mind, okay? He's not trying to hurt me, he's not falling out of love with me, he's not doing this because he hates me, he's struggling. And then you would go say a prayer to help manage your own anxiety. Is that successful every time? Do you do find going and praying, is the right balm for you?0:32:23 Kelsey: When I'm in the right enough mindset to decide to go do that, yes. A lot of the times it's, "No, I wanna sit here and I wanna hash this out until it's done," and there can't be any other thing that happens.0:32:35 Daniel: And that's how we got our taxes done. Oh, boy. Sometimes you do... You have to, right, because there's a deadline. I may wanna address that in a minute, here, but so, but specifically for you, what are some other ways maybe that you...0:32:49 Kelsey: Well, and you say that it would have had to be on the forefront of my mind and I have had... That's a subconscious narrative all the time is this, "Well, if he's abandoning conversation, does that mean he doesn't actually care about how I feel? And he just is fed up with me and he wants to be just done with this." And then of course if I'm in a high anxiety mode I escalate done with this conversation, to done with me and like he wants to leave now, and I don't know when he's gonna come back, and that doesn't happen.0:33:19 Daniel: Leaving is not the marriage. Out the door, take a walk, is that what you mean?0:33:24 Kelsey: Right. Well, like I said, when I'm feeling really, really anxious sometimes I think... Well, for the sake convenience he probably wouldn't divorce me, but he wants to be gone. I would think he doesn't want to be in this right now. He wants an escape. And...0:33:42 Daniel: You mean as an excuse? I don't wanna deal with this. I'm leaving.0:33:47 Kelsey: Yeah, kind of. And when I say leaving, I realize that that can be vague, and I kinda joke that... We want to stay together. We've, I come from a family that has divorce and remarriage and from the beginning we were like, "We have some things to work through. We are going to have things to work through, but we wanna stay together." And so I know that I don't ever have to be afraid that he's literally going to want to leave as in divorce me, but I think he doesn't wanna be dealing with this right now, and that means he doesn't wanna be dealing with me and that can create a lot of...0:34:22 Daniel: You internalize and it becomes part of your anxiety. So what do you do to get yourself out of that, that mindset?0:34:30 Kelsey: Up until super recently, actually, I needed him to talk me out of it, I really craved for him to say, "No, that's not how I'm feeling. I don't wanna leave you, I'm overwhelmed by the situation, but it's not your fault and I'll work through it, just give me some time." And when he wouldn't say things like that, but I was just supposed to infer it, and I didn't realize that yet, I would be really scared that like, "He's fed up with me, he doesn't wanna be in this relationship, he wants an out," and so that's something that now that he has told me some of the things that go through his head in those high anxiety moments, I can kind of remind myself of that when a high anxiety moment comes back again that he doesn't need to say it every time. And like I said, up until recently, I wanted him to say it every time, every argument I wanted him to say what he was feeling and reassure me and I realized that that's not who he is and that my need for validation of my emotions was very high.0:35:38 Kelsey: It still is, I'm working on it, but... And that I can remind myself of what he's told me in the past and trust what he's told me in the past without needing to hear it every single time he got angry or anxious or upset or whatever...0:35:50 Daniel: Overwhelmed.0:35:51 Kelsey: Title you want to call the emotion. Because I needed the validation every time and I'm currently working on being able to trust what he's already said and not needing a repeat on the validation every time.0:36:05 Daniel: What you're describing there is, I think, such an important takeaway. I assure you that there are many listening to this who also struggle with anxiety, depression and what you just described is breaking a cycle. I liked the words you said, your need for validation... Validation is valid, alright, it's... And there's this very... There's this interesting place because we feel love, we feel connection when we have those feelings validated, but what you're experiencing is this escalation of depression and anxiety. And you just said exactly that. I knew I needed him to reassure me that he wasn't gonna leave, but then you said, I had to remember our previous conversations, and that's where I found comfort, and it's still hard.0:37:03 Daniel: So there's this interesting place where your anxiety is driving the need for the validation versus the actual need for validation. And I wanna be careful with that, 'cause that's a very difficult place to differentiate and discern because when your anxiety and depression are kicking in, it's a concrete need, isn't it? It's like, tell me you're not leaving now, but you're recognizing, okay, no, no, no, no, this is my anxiety, I need to, I need to take responsibility, just as much as I told Nich he needs to take responsibility for his depression. That's impressive. And that is a very difficult place to be in.0:37:41 Kelsey: And just as a follow-up to that, sometimes it'll even be while I'm trying to remind myself and trust the things that he's told me in the past, I'll actually say things like, "This is what I'm feeling from you, I'm worried about this. Would it be truthful of me if I said his is what you're thinking right now?" And then because I said the words and he didn't need to, 'cause he's not feeling put together enough to say it, he'll then be like, "Yes, that's right." And then I could reassure myself without needing him to do it, but I needed a little extra assurance of him confirming what I've trusted from him before, if that makes sense.0:38:20 Daniel: Wonderful, yeah. Nich, anything to add to that?0:38:24 Nich: I would say, for me, a lot of the time, the word that we've been using a lot recently is that we feel overwhelmed with anxiety or depression or just our emotions in general, and like Kelsey's been saying for her it's... She blasted at you. I would go beyond a shotgun to like a machine gun effect on it sometimes, versus so much in such quick succession, and terrible accuracy at the same time, because that's what you end up doing. Well, for me, it becomes my mind becomes foggier and foggier and foggier and that's why it becomes so difficult for me to want to reach out and actually cut through that and recognize that those moments when she's like, "This is what I'm thinking, this is what I'm feeling. Is that accurate?" And it's like, "Okay, the words are there. I can agree or disagree with that, and that can provide me some clarity and some guidance through that right now."0:39:22 Nich: And so that's always been beneficial to me, but I also have to keep it at the front of my mind, some of those times where it's, okay, I only have half a sentence right now, I have to trust that if I begin that, that will cut through and provide my clarity for me and that I can actually start to talk and actually can break out of this right now, even though I feel absolutely terrified that I don't know where the sentence is ending and I don't wanna be Michael Scott from The Office, thank you.0:39:52 Kelsey: Yeah, that's a huge thing too, is that when I'm feeling anxious, I obviously I want him to respond, I want him to tell me what he's thinking, and he doesn't like to unless he's done thinking, which can take days or more.0:40:11 Daniel: Or more. Is this complete silence or is it just on that particular point or topic, or does it depend?0:40:19 Nich: It's usually on that point or topic, I would say, because if we can, if we end up changing the topic to something more...0:40:24 Kelsey: Light.0:40:25 Nich: Light, yeah, less serious like, "Oh, what are we gonna do for dinner," which typically ends up, "I don't know, let's figure that out," or like, "Oh, okay," then we just take a break and then it's, "Hey, what's on TV," or something like that, that can break it out, because then it's a new direction, a new focus and I don't feel the pressure to respond.0:40:50 Daniel: A distraction.0:40:50 Nich: Yeah.0:40:51 Kelsey: But when we are really, when... Well, maybe it's just me, when I'm really focused on a topic, because again, I want to hash it out all right then, and I'll say everything that's on my mind. And then if it's just like nothing, just like, not even crickets, I won't even say crickets, just nothing.0:41:08 Daniel: The crickets are scared.0:41:09 Kelsey: And then I feel like I've just left this big emotional blob and then a slight inquiry at the end and I'm getting nothing and then that spikes my anxiety. Because in those moments, it is complete silences. I don't wanna talk about any of what you've just said at all right now because it's all running through my head, and that can be hard to deal with, but again, I will say I have learned that I need to say what I need after I've expressed all that stuff. If I have the clarity to say it beforehand, I'll say, okay, I'm feeling a lot of emotions, this is what I need right now. If it's either listen or confirm if what I'm feeling is crazy or not, then I'll spill out everything, and then because I've already told him what result I need from him, he can respond. And sometimes when I'm not feeling clarity enough to do that, I will say all the stuff because I'm overwhelmed and then say, "Okay, now that I've said all of that I realized that what I need from you right now, is blank."0:42:15 Kelsey: And then that gives us both something to focus on, and often I solve my own problem, but sometimes, often, he can help me solve it, now that I've given him something more narrow out of my big emotional balloon I just popped in his face.0:42:29 Daniel: So what I like about that is you're communicating right now. I know you can't, so I'm putting it, obviously, in my words, but is how I'm gonna summarize it. It sounds like, Nich, you're overwhelmed, and I see that. I also have a need to verbalize what's going on here, and this is what I'll probably need afterwards. What do you do in those situations where you're recognizing she's communicating? I need to verbalize this, and maybe she doesn't always have to communicate that verbally or at least... Hey, heads up. I got to vocalize this, you know, we're now, it's two years in the marriage and you know, she needs to share her thoughts and you want to provide her that space to share. How do you go about doing that?0:43:15 Nich: I think a lot of the time, recently, it usually happens at night, when we're just laying in bed before we attempt to sleep. And it helped recently that Kelsey even said that typically the thing that she needs is a hug or just to be held. And that if she doesn't tell me exactly what it is, that's probably a good default option for...0:43:40 Daniel: That's good.0:43:41 Nich: And the moments when she has been able to directly state that this is... Like, when she ends it on a question that was very implicitly, "I want an answer to this question," whether she verbalized that, you could kinda tell that, "Okay, this is actually a question question and not a thinking out loud question," which has been very hard to discern until we've been more open and talking about what that can look like and mean for us, I've... It's a lot easier for me to answer then because then I know what that expectation is, and it's harder for my mind to then run out of control, 'cause it's like, "Okay, there's a very clear question here that she wants," and there's still a space there as I collect my thoughts after she finishes and I wanna make sure that she is done, and then as I start to collect it, I become more okay with that half-finished idea that I feel like I have.0:44:41 Daniel: What I like hearing here is, is you eliminate the guessing, you don't wanna become as a, Kelsey, as an anxious person, hyper-vigilant to Nich's behavior. And there's a danger there, because if he shuts down, he's going silent. You're becoming hyper-vigilant. It's like, "Okay, something's wrong with Nich, what's going on? I have to dig and I have to dig and I have to dig," you're recognizing, "Okay, I need to treat him like an adult and allow him to go through this but I am gonna vocalize what I need and Nich is gonna respond to that."0:45:13 Daniel: I think this is really important and it's gonna lead into two other questions I have here. And the first one is, what would you say, I guess, both Nich and Kelsey, with anxiety and depression, for those who don't truly understand how difficult it is to live and function in a relationship with these two things, who might say, this is something that you use, as you're alluding to, a way to avoid a conversation, what's the difference there? And then the second one is, and you can answer whatever order you like, is now that you have a kid and you do have deadlines, how do you function with these two struggles, anxiety and depression, in meeting those deadlines and the needs of your child. 'Cause sometimes you can't, you can't put something off for a day or two. So, guide us in that, what do you do?0:46:13 Kelsey: Well, to answer your second question, the first thing that comes to mind actually is that having a baby, actually, it provides... How Nich mentioned that sometimes we'll just switch to a lighter topic if it feels like it's getting too overwhelming, too heavy, because we're both too anxious, it's really easy to just then, "Baby needs attention, so we're not talking about this right now, because... " Or baby's fussy or she wants to eat or I'm still nursing her a few times a day so that actually provides me... "Okay, baby's hungry. We're gonna pause this conversation. I'm gonna go have a chance to go think in baby's room while I'm nursing her by myself."0:46:57 Kelsey: So in some ways it eliminates my need to just keep hashing it out because there's an immediate need of a baby there, and so I can then focus my energy on her, whether that's anxious energy, it's usually anxious energy. I can focus that need on her and take a break. Not that I always recognize it as a break, sometimes it's more like... I wanted to have this conversation and this, this baby just needs to interrupt it. And so in the moment it might feel more stressful because there's another human being that needs me right now, other than myself and my husband but...0:47:40 Kelsey: And when I think about it, and while I'm then taking care of the baby, it's okay. This is probably a needed break from that conversation. We could take a pause. I can take care of the baby for a little while and then maybe bring this up again later when we've had a chance to chill out. And that's an up and down emotional roller coaster, right, because when somebody else needs you, it's like it's fulfilling but at the same time, it's like... But I had something else I wanted to focus on right now. So it's, it's up and down definitely.0:48:18 Daniel: Yeah, and what was the first question again? I'm trying to... For those who don't, haven't experienced this level of anxiety or depression or understand it and may say, life is tough, you've gotta still... Are you using it to... Is this a form of running away and not handling your responsibilities?0:48:39 Nich: I was slightly thinking about that and I wanted clarification on the question. And it's not... You can use an excuse to run away from any responsibility that you find anyway.0:48:49 Daniel: Absolutely.0:48:50 Nich: And so I would say it can definitely appear like that. And when you're in that moment of depression, when that thought comes to mind, or anxiety, all it does is make it worse because now you're like, "Great. Now, I'm also not taking care of my child, I'm not doing my homework." And it just keeps building upon itself more and more, and that makes it so difficult. And that's one of the benefits to marrying Kelsey and having you as a father-in-law is that we've been able to recognize that more and in a healthy way rely upon each other to know that even if we're both feeling super overwhelmed, we've been able to develop a sense of trust with each other where it's, okay, we both need something right now, and we need to figure what that is.0:49:45 Nich: And for... I can definitely see that people that haven't felt that and don't understand that how that could appear from the outside, but I would say just think about all the different excuses that you make in your life, for not doing the dishes or not giving your all at work, you're gonna find excuses in your life that are gonna be doing the same thing and they might be as deeply ingrained in your personality as depression or anxiety can be.0:50:15 Daniel: Oh, that's a great, great point. Everybody has their own struggle with procrastinating in some form. Some may be great, like Kelsey and your mom who are great schedulers and use that as a tool for productivity in their life, but there are other aspects of your life that may be a type of procrastination. And so we're all struggling with our own... I really appreciate this conversation 'cause... And I have shared a lot with my audience, but for those who don't know, I by no means struggle with the anxiety or the depression that either of you do, but I definitely do shut down when I get overwhelmed, to a point that I don't even realize, and this came to light, and why I'm sharing this is 'cause it's a lot of what you're doing early in the marriage.0:51:01 Daniel: When we started working out early in the morning, mornings are not good for me, at all, and so I didn't even realize how away I was in my mind and mom, my wife, your mother, would like to talk, and plan out in our drive to the gym in the morning at 5:00 AM, and it would become quickly overwhelming, and I would shut down more. And that was very difficult for her, and it was difficult for me and so becoming verbal. And one of the things that we did was we took the focus or potential offense off of each other. It's not because of you. What I would often do is... You know what, I am having a really... So I had to have it on the forefront of my mind, today is a really rough day. I don't think I slept well. This has nothing to do with you. I kinda need some space here as we drive. And that would be hard for her, because she... That was her time to talk, and there were mornings where she would say, "This is really hard for me." I thought it was going well, I thought it was going well, I didn't feel bad, but I wasn't talking, I wasn't engaging in the conversation, but she would be able to say that and just articulate it, and I would say, "Oh, I had no idea, thank you," and be able to engage in some dialogue right there and then to be able to meet it.0:52:27 Daniel: But I didn't feel like I was responsible for her experience there, and vice versa. And that was a process that we had to grow through, and I think we've gotten pretty good at it and being able to recognize, I'm struggling, you're struggling, okay, that's all that's going on right now and that's it. But that still, that struggle still affects us emotionally, it's like, "Oh, my goodness, I don't want today to be unpredictable." So we start to learn how to navigate that. I need 10 minutes of rest, I'll go shut down, and then I'll come back out and engage in a way that is supportive for her and I'm hearing you two develop those skills and that's really impressive and it's very hard, very hard, 'cause it has to take... You have to learn how not to get offended or take it personal, but yet it's still emotional, and to be able to communicate that so it's very impressive that you two are navigating that.0:53:26 Kelsey: Thank you.0:53:27 Daniel: And I'm not in your daily life. Yeah, you said because of me, but I have very little involvement in your marriage.0:53:35 Kelsey: No, but your ideas have a lot of involvement in our marriage.0:53:39 Daniel: Thank you.0:53:40 Kelsey: Another thing that I was thinking what you're saying that is sometimes you just need to verbalize something to connect, to check in, whatever it is. Something that we've started doing is because I've realized that when Nich gets really overwhelmed verbalizing is the last thing he wants to do.0:53:57 Daniel: It's hard.0:54:00 Kelsey: A lot of the time now he'll just... It kind of communicates... Well, let me tell you what it is first. He'll flash the I love you, the ASL sign, at me, or make the I love you sign with his hand and then touch my knee or something like that, and that's come to communicate that a lot's going on in my mind right now and I can't continue to talk about it at the moment, but I heard you and I love you and that just like... That simple little thing is just like I'm telling you I understand and that I can't do anything about it at the moment, but that I love you.0:54:36 Daniel: That's brilliant. In the context of sex, that's safe words, right? But that's in our emotional relationship, I think that's huge, and I think Julie and I, my wife and I, have done similar things. I don't know if we're as conscious of that, but there are definitely things that we do to communicate, this is where I'm at, so that's brilliant, I really like that. I hope the audience understands the impact of that, so that's... That's good. And I think where that gets really successful. Well, it is a little bit more conscious in our relationship because one of the keys for that to be successful is that we don't use... For example, in your case, the I love you sign as a way to escape the conversation and never follow up for it, right. Where it becomes successful is when you can use it and trust that this will then be followed up later. It's not a way to permanently set it aside. And I think that's where couples get into trouble, and we don't have to hold each other to a specific time frame.0:55:34 Daniel: Sometimes I will say, "Sweetheart, I need to talk to you. Let's put this off until tomorrow," and then, tomorrow comes along and, boy, it's a really bad day at work, or very emotional, it's like... But, I will communicate that with her and say, "It was really rough. Tell you what, let's try to do this tomorrow," but I'm following up eventually following up. It's not, "I'm putting you off." I know my limitations. So another great idea, I love it.0:56:02 Nich: One of the things I was thinking about right now, was that through all of this, one of the biggest problems that we've encountered is in those anxiety or high depression moments and in arguments in general, you take things very personal from what the person says. And for me, one of my big problems throughout life and why Kelsey and I think I might be actually somewhat autistic, is my ability to express my thoughts has caused a huge amount of misunderstandings in my life, and I didn't have it pointed out until my mission that my tone of voice doesn't typically match what I'm actually trying to get across. And I had no idea, and that was a very weird moment on the mission to have my companion tell me that, and he was just making note of it, he wasn't angry with me, or anything. It was just like pointing that out.0:56:53 Daniel: This isn't making sense, Nich, you said this, but it felt like this.0:56:57 Nich: All he said was, your tone of voice really doesn't match what you're saying. And I had the most, what? And so like that, and my phrasing and wording is very particular from what it's been pointed out to me from people and so when I feel like I've expressed something and because she's feeling very anxious or confused, which makes Kelsey hard to actually communicate with, 'cause she's trying to figure it all out in her way, that what I've said very profound or very direct to the point and it was misunderstood. It feels very personal to me, 'cause it's like, but I spent all this time thinking about it and composing this and you're completely misunderstanding and that means you don't understand me.0:57:51 Kelsey: One of the things that I think he mean with that is, if you can tell, Nich is bass, and this means that when he says something that's very direct, it can often sound cutting or short or he doesn't care, because it's just, "Well, this is how it is." The end.0:58:10 Daniel: It's strong.0:58:12 Kelsey: Yes, it's strong. And while that felt very, it might have felt like he was saying something consoling in his own mind because he took time to think about it and that that was his answer, to me it just felt like, well, that was disappointing and rude. And I'll say that, I'll say so, "What do you mean? That was rude. You didn't even think about what I said." And so, yes, while tone and voice and the word choice can play a lot into if you sound nice or consoling or you understand, something we've also had to learn, is that I don't want Nich to speak differently or sound like all rainbows and butterflies, just because I'm anxious, I want him to be himself, but I need to realize that his tone of voice and the way that he says things, even if it can, if I'm having a hard and overwhelming time, it can sound really cutting or dismissive.0:59:11 Kelsey: What I need to realize is that I need to pay attention to the words and also kind of like fill in what I know about him, fill in that I know that he's not trying to dismiss me or tell me that I'm being dumb, but rather that he wants to help me through it, but he also doesn't want to dwell on things that don't need to be worried about, and that's where the directness is coming from, is that he wants to help me dismiss the things that I am focusing my anxious energy on that I don't need to, and that can sound really cutting in the moment. But then I realize he's actually being caring saying, you simply don't need to worry about that. But how it translates to me is I don't care. And...1:00:03 Daniel: Do you have an example of that, 'cause I don't want the listeners... 'Cause the way that does sound, is it could sound controlling. I don't want you to think about this. You got every right to think about whatever you want. So what's a situation where that has occurred and how that's played out?1:00:24 Nich: A lot of the time with our daughter.1:00:26 Kelsey: Right. So there's been a lot of times when... I mean, I'll get really anxious if I put Evelyn down for a nap, 'cause she's still learning how to self-soothe and get herself snuggled up and asleep. I'll put her down for a nap and she's crying and I don't wanna leave her there crying, but I know that she'll get herself to sleep, because she's learning how to do that, and then I'll come out and I'm like, "She's crying again, I don't know why she won't let me put her down for a nap. She didn't even wanna snuggle. She likes you better than me. You're the favorite parent, and you can put her down for a nap and she doesn't cry... "1:01:00 Kelsey: Your anxiety starts to spiral.1:01:00 Kelsey: Yeah, and then I just think, "She hates me." She's 11 months old. Her memory is just so short term, she'll forget in two seconds that I put her down crying and she'll be happy 'cause she's asleep. But I come out saying, "This happens all the time. She hardly wanted to nurse, she didn't wanna snuggle me, she was just crying. I put it in her crib, but now I feel like I abandoned her." And those are the kind of moments when Nich is just like, one of his favorite phrases for those kind of moments for me is, "It is what it is right now," and those exact words.1:01:31 Daniel: That's not quite... I like that, because it's not dismissive. He's acknowledging, it is what it is right now, but don't let me put words in your mouth, that don't allow that, the anxiety to escalate in a way that's distracting or hurtful in the situation.1:01:48 Kelsey: The first few times that he said that I thought he was simply saying, "Shut up, you're overwhelming me, go away." But instead he was saying, "She'll be fine. You don't need to worry about this." So that's what I mean when I say that he'll say something that sounds really direct and cutting, but what he's really trying to say is, "You can tone down your anxiety, this is going to be fine," and I need to translate that in my brain that while I want him to, you know, maybe there's a part of me that wants him to go buy me chocolates and write me a love letter and make me feel better. Him saying it is what it is right now is like the emotional equivalent of that. He's saying, "You can calm down, it's going to be fine."1:02:34 Daniel: So what I'd like, maybe one final thought is, and maybe you two can share, if there's one thing that you can, the listener can take away from this, what would it be? What would you tell your pre-married selves, what would you inform yourselves? But before you answer that, one thing I think is important to clarify here is some will be thinking who are struggling with spouses who struggle with depression, is that they get this feeling of they are who they are, and I just have to let them be. What I notice in your relationship is, yes, there's a degree of that. The fact is, you do struggle with depression and you struggle with anxiety and you both at times struggle with both, and there's this element of that's who they are, but you're not becoming your depression, you're not using that as an excuse, and you are finding opportunities like what you're just describing there is how to communicate better with each other, so you're incrementally trying to meet each other's needs without denying what you're experiencing. Is that fair to say?1:03:43 Nich: Yes, I'd say so.1:03:45 Daniel: Kelsey?1:03:46 Kelsey: There was a lot of description there and I lost the question.1:03:50 Daniel: You're not using this as an excuse, you're not just saying, I'm an anxious person, so you have to live with me, just who I am. You're recognizing that's what you both are struggling with, but there are opportunities in your lives where you're actually trying to meet the needs of the other person. Is that fair to say?1:04:07 Kelsey: Yeah.1:04:08 Daniel: It's not being used as an excuse. I will never change, and I can't learn how to communicate the way that you value. You both are actually trying to communicate in a way that each other values.1:04:19 Kelsey: Yeah. Yeah.1:04:22 Nich: Makes the marriage easier.1:04:23 Kelsey: I would say that with that being said, a good takeaway that I would tell my pre-married self is one, that I don't need to feel like it's 100% my responsibility to care for my husband's emotions or to fix, I guess that's a better word, my husband's emotions if I feel like they're not happy. And with that, while I'm not responsible... While I'm not the sole responsible person for his emotions, I also, on the flip side, can't make him fully responsible for the way that I'm feeling. So that I need to take responsibility for me, and that will need to balance with helping and taking some responsibility for how he's feeling. But if I try to go 100% both ways, we're just both gonna be overwhelmed.1:05:21 Daniel: I love that summary. Thank you. Nich, what about you?1:05:26 Nich: If I would tell something to my pre-married self, it's that you don't have to be who they want you to be. With that, especially with depression and everything else that I felt with that, is that I needed to be able to accept who I am and what I have, with the depression and how my voice is and my ability to communicate, and that the more that I embrace that and try to learn and grow inside of that, that I will find people that are okay with that and who will be friends for a long time. And I will find someone that I'll get married to, despite all these things that most people are looking and going, "Oh, well, you're gonna need to fix that to actually be accepted in society and be accepted by someone."1:06:24 Daniel: Thank you both. I think this is a great example of what it's like to live the gospel, live a relationship where you both love each other, and it's still messy. I think that's important for people to hear and learn how to navigate it and I hope that those listening will hear your example and find encouragement, even in the messy. And I know sometimes we get this ideal of what a eternal temple marriage relationship looks like, and that's not bad, but to be able to see it and on day-to-day basis, and I think you guys have provided a window into that. And so I appreciate your vulnerability, and sharing that with everyone else. Thank you.1:07:06 Kelsey: Thanks, Dan.1:07:06 Daniel: Thank you.[music]Continue the improving intimacy discussion by joining the Improving Intimacy Facebook group. 

 This Post is broken out into two separate sections; Evelyn’s written first-hand account of her sexual health journey as a Latter-day Saint and the full transcript of Evelyn’s podcast interview. Evelyn’s written first-hand account of her sexual health journey:As a single Latter-day Saint woman struggling with anxiety and depression, my sexuality was not a priority in my life. After all, I was single, wasn’t I? As an active and devout member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, my responsibility as I saw it at the time was to avoid and ignore anything related to sex. Whatever my well-meaning youth leaders had intended, the message that I had received from them was that anything related to sex - discussion, acknowledgment, unintended feelings of arousal, etc. - was off-limits. The idea that this avoidance might be contributing to my mental health struggles never crossed my mind. In fact, at one point, when asked whether I had a healthy view of sexuality, my answer was “How should I know?” In my mind, even knowing the answer to a question like this was potentially inappropriate, because it would require thinking about sex.Then came the challenge to make some goals in my life in all areas, including my sexuality. This made me uncomfortable. I have tried to do what is right throughout my life, and this felt like straying a little too close to the fence for me, so I started small. I would just think about my sexuality. That was all. For a few minutes, I would consider that this part of myself that I had isolated, ignored, and disconnected was, in fact, a legitimate part of me. Over time, this few minutes of thought led to study. I read books written by members of the Church and other Christian authors and considered what they had to say. I prayed about what I was reading and my own questions. I became increasingly certain that sexuality and desire are God-given and an important part of being whole and complete. As I came to this understanding, some truly unexpected things began to happen.The first noticeable change was that I began to feel differently about certain TV shows. Many comedies use sex as a primary source of humor. Where these shows had not bothered me previously, I began to feel uncomfortable with the way that they were portraying sexuality. Using this gift from God for a cheap laugh began to affect me more. Studying and thinking and acknowledging my own sexuality made it feel more sacred to me, not less. I changed some of my media habits to reflect my new understanding. This led to a closer relationship with God. I also began to feel better about myself. I felt more comfortable in my own skin. I worried less about what others thought about me, and felt less need to hide behind a mask of whatever I thought others wanted to see. My symptoms of anxiety and depression began to decrease. This was a shock to me, but I realized that accepting my own sexuality and desires allowed me to stop fragmenting myself. I became more whole and more authentic. My relationships did not suffer for letting go of my carefully constructed mask. I became closer to my roommate as we had vulnerable discussions and talked - and sometimes laughed - together about our shared insecurities. Other relationships also improved. I began to serve others more and noticed their needs more easily. I felt more comfortable reaching out to comfort and help others in need.Eventually, I decided to take another step forward in understanding my own sexuality and desires. I decided to explore masturbation. This was not a step that I came to lightly. When it was first suggested during a therapy session, I had a strong negative reaction. I couldn’t possibly do this! It was wrong. I felt anxiety and pressure. I felt torn between a desire to please someone I respected by agreeing to try but also fear that trying this would ruin my relationship with God. As a child, I had stumbled upon the ability to stimulate myself and had done this occasionally for some time before I even understood what it was. The shame I felt when I eventually realized that this was what people meant when they used the term “masturbation” was extreme. I spoke with a bishop about this behavior, and put it behind me as best I knew how, by locking away that part of myself as completely as I possibly could to avoid even entirely unintentional feelings of arousal. Now, the thought that I might choose masturbation on purpose frightened me. I thought about this deeply for some time. Eventually, I made a choice: I would not try masturbation. I shared this in my next session. Once again, the results were unexpected. I didn’t consider this at the time, but this was the first real choice that I had ever made about my own sexuality. I had always attempted to do the right thing, but it was an effort to do what others told me to do. Never before had I exercised my agency around my sexuality. I had never owned a choice before in regards to this part of myself. I felt empowered. I felt strong. My fear and anxiety decreased, but not because of what I had chosen. They decreased simply because I had chosen. I realized then that I had previously allowed myself to be acted upon, rather than claiming my agency and making my choices. I began to pray and consider the possibility of making the choice to try to better understand and appreciate my own body, my sexuality, and my desire through masturbation. After a period of time, and with significant thought and prayer, I decided that this was something that I would do. Not long after this, I met the man that I would marry. My experiences had increased my ability to interact and communicate authentically, and I was able to bring my whole self to this relationship in a way that I had not been able to in past relationships. I was able to communicate more honestly about my needs, with less fear. This is not to say that this was easy, or that I was fully prepared to enjoy the sexual relationship with my husband after marriage. I discovered that what my mind and heart believed, my body did not necessarily understand. Like many women, I had to deal with painful sex and difficulty staying in the present moment during intercourse without shame or fear. Gratefully, my husband is a kind and honest communicator who cares about my enjoyment and is patient with me. As we have talked and shared and supported each other, I have felt increased closeness and enjoyment in sex. I know that if I had not begun the process of understanding and appreciating my sexuality and my own body before we married, this process would have been far more difficult. I fear I would not even have been able to talk about it with my loving husband with honesty and awareness, which would have made our intimate experiences together more challenging and our conversations less effective.I know that my journey is far from complete. I still often feel like I have a long way to go. I also would never presume that someone else should make the same choices I have. Every person needs to make their own decisions thoughtfully and prayerfully. However, I truly believe that my Heavenly Father cares about my relationships and is concerned with my experiences with sex. He doesn't want me to live in fear of my own sexuality, given to me by Him for righteous purposes. He wants me to recognize that this gift is a part of who I am. He wants me to enjoy sex with my husband and use it as an opportunity for us to grow closer together. He wants me to claim the gift of agency and make choices for myself, rather than acting out of fear. I am grateful for the experiences that I have had as I have sought to understand my sexuality. I know that they have helped me to develop my relationships - with myself, with my friends and family, and with God. I know also that they will impact the way that I teach my children about this topic. While I still appreciate the efforts of youth leaders who impacted my life in many ways for good, I want to better prepare my children to understand this powerful gift from their loving Father in Heaven. I hope that by teaching them differently than I was taught, they may be more prepared to fully enjoy and appreciate the blessing of their sexuality. Full Franscript of Evelyn’s Podcast Interview:0:00:05 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:29 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, we have Evelyn in the studio, who's gonna be talking about her experiences around improving her sexual health through masturbation. A sensitive topic, and I appreciate her coming in and being vulnerable with us today. Evelyn, will you tell us a little bit about yourself?0:00:50 Evelyn: Sure. I am an active member of the church. I enjoy attending every week and with my family. Anything else you wanna know?0:01:06 Daniel: Kids?0:01:07 Evelyn: Kids, I do. I do have a child. I have a daughter.0:01:13 Daniel: How long have you been married?0:01:14 Evelyn: Been married about... A little more than two years.0:01:17 Daniel: Two years. And how old are you?0:01:20 Evelyn: I am 37.0:01:21 Daniel: Thirty-seven. Wow.0:01:23 Evelyn: Well, I did not get married real early.0:01:24 Daniel: No. Well, out here in Silicon Valley, that's a pretty standard age right there.0:01:30 Evelyn: That's true.0:01:31 Daniel: But you married right, which is a great thing.0:01:33 Evelyn: I did.0:01:35 Daniel: So you're coming in here today, and we're gonna be talking about some pretty private and personal things. What's your motivation for doing this? What's your purpose for doing this?0:01:49 Evelyn: I would say my purpose for doing this is that I feel like I've made a lot of progress through the different experiences that I've had. And some of them have been challenging, but I'm in definitely a better place than when I started, and I want to give other people the opportunity to hear about it so that maybe their journey could be a little bit easier.0:02:14 Daniel: That's wonderful. Tell us some of those challenges that you're having.0:02:19 Daniel: Well, I have struggled with anxiety for a lot of my life. I would say that when I was young, it was really challenging for me to kind of manage day-to-day. I had fairly crippling perfectionism and really was very, very worried about how other people perceived me, and that got in my way a lot. When I was in college, I hit a point where I realized that I needed help. I had great parents who helped me see that I needed some support, so I reached out and I got some help. And...0:03:08 Daniel: What kind of help did you get?0:03:10 Evelyn: I started attending therapy, and I also went on medication. So I was able to get better, but I kind of got to a point where I wasn't really making too much progress beyond...0:03:26 Daniel: Did the medication help?0:03:27 Evelyn: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.0:03:29 Daniel: And this was in your college years?0:03:32 Evelyn: Mm-hmm. Yes. The medication definitely helped, and so did the therapy. I was able to talk to a few different therapists, and it was really beneficial. But I guess that by the time I reached adulthood, I had learned how to manage a lot. I had learned a lot of coping skills which were very beneficial. They certainly made a difference in the quality of my life. I was able to calm myself down. I was able to kind of recognize when I might be having an anxiety reaction that was above and beyond the legitimate need based on what was going on. So I developed a lot of those skills, and I've made a lot of progress, but I would still slide back periodically. And I still realized that I hadn't dealt with some of the root issues.0:04:35 Daniel: Now, we're not talking about, "I'm nervous." We're talking about anxiety that was paralyzing.0:04:43 Evelyn: Yes. Yeah. I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, and it definitely was making it so that there were a lot of things that I couldn't do. Interacting with people was particularly difficult.0:05:00 Daniel: Let's talk a little bit more about that. Not only interacting with people, you're going into a profession. You're working. You're living on your own. You're high-functioning. But this was getting in the way, not just of interacting with people, but your job too?0:05:17 Evelyn: Well, I wouldn't say that it was getting in the way of my job performance. It was definitely getting in the way of my job enjoyment.0:05:24 Daniel: Ah, yes. And that's an important clarification right there. So how... If you can put it on a scale, it sounds like it was growing and becoming increasingly worse, and you'd been on medication and during your... Maybe your 20s is what we're talking about now. You're out of college, and it's increasingly getting worse. How bad was it? Tell us a little bit more about that.0:05:52 Evelyn: It depended, I would say, on the time. I would have times that I was... Felt pretty in control of how things were going, but then I would have other times when things would slide backward and I would just not want to do anything. And I would... I would say, externally, everything looked fine.0:06:11 Daniel: Yes.0:06:12 Evelyn: From an outsider's perspective...0:06:13 Daniel: You're good with that.0:06:15 Evelyn: Yes, I am. [chuckle]0:06:17 Daniel: As most... As a lot of people who struggle with anxiety are and who are high-functioning, people don't realize how bad they're suffering inside. And that was the case with you.0:06:28 Evelyn: Yeah.0:06:29 Daniel: Yeah.0:06:30 Evelyn: Yeah. But it became... Yeah, it was really very, very difficult on a day-to-day basis to just carry out the things that I needed to do, to make myself do that. It cost me a lot to go through a day and to make sure that no one knew how I was feeling about everything that I had to do, and just the overwhelming... Sometimes, it was... Sometimes it just felt incredibly devastating. I remember explaining it to my mother one time how I would feel about the future and about how things were going. And she said, "Wow, that sounds like the dementors in Harry Potter."0:07:11 Daniel: Wow.0:07:11 Evelyn: They just suck the joy out of everything.0:07:12 Daniel: Yes. What a perfect visual. Absolutely. And I think that's when I first met you was you were at that point. Dementors had sucked everything out of you.0:07:24 Evelyn: Yup.0:07:25 Daniel: You made a particularly interesting request, though, when you came and saw me. So this is much later, so in your mid-30s. So I think that's important. So for about 15 years since college.0:07:40 Evelyn: Yeah.0:07:41 Daniel: Were you on medication that whole time?0:07:44 Evelyn: Not the whole time, but I would say off and on.0:07:47 Daniel: Okay.0:07:47 Evelyn: A reasonable amount of the time.0:07:49 Daniel: And when you were on medication, it seemed like it was manageable?0:07:53 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:07:55 Daniel: And by the time you came and sought help from me, you were... If I remember right, you were not on medication.0:08:04 Evelyn: Yeah, I did try to not go on medication for a while.0:08:07 Daniel: That was a particular request you actually had.0:08:09 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:08:10 Daniel: You said, "I wanna try to do this without medication."0:08:12 Evelyn: Yes. I ultimately did go back on for some help with sleeping, but...0:08:19 Daniel: But for anxiety?0:08:21 Evelyn: Yeah, for anxiety I think I've made a lot of progress.0:08:23 Daniel: Yes.0:08:24 Evelyn: It still helps, but the biggest reason that I take some now is because it helps with sleep.0:08:30 Daniel: Yes. Well, and you're a new mother too, isn't it so?0:08:33 Evelyn: Well, that's true. Yes.0:08:35 Daniel: A lot of stress is going on. In fact, to that point, with all the stresses that you have, you've been married in the last two years.0:08:42 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:08:42 Daniel: You have a baby in your late 30s.0:08:47 Evelyn: Yep.0:08:47 Daniel: Later 30s. All these life changes. You became accustomed to living alone, or at least independently.0:08:58 Evelyn: Yes. Yes.0:09:00 Daniel: And so you have a lot of stresses in your life in your... I mean, yes, medication for sleeping, which, gosh, I'm on right now. Not to minimize at all what you're experiencing there. But even with all these major life changes, how would you say you're coping?0:09:16 Evelyn: Oh, much better.0:09:18 Daniel: Much better.0:09:18 Evelyn: Much better than I was.0:09:20 Daniel: So you eventually, in your mid-30s, you sought out help again. Had you see seen a therapist since college?0:09:28 Evelyn: Yes.0:09:29 Daniel: Yes, you have?0:09:30 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:09:30 Daniel: And I'm assuming it was somewhat helpful because you're coming again.0:09:33 Evelyn: Yeah. Absolutely.0:09:35 Daniel: And so you're in a new area, you're seeking some support here. Tell us about that. What was that experience like? You're having to reach out. Give me some emotions.0:09:45 Evelyn: Sure. I would say that when I've gone to see a therapist, it has helped. And so I would... I decided that when I reached a point in a new area, I needed to find someone to help me out because with the moving to a new place, it kind of pushed me backward to the point where I really wasn't coping well at all. So I decided that I needed to find somebody, and luckily, I'd met you.0:10:12 Daniel: Okay.0:10:12 Evelyn: So I asked you, and we started talking, and that was really helpful.0:10:21 Daniel: Well, it was interesting at the beginning. We were doing... So one of the first things we did was we tried to explore what's working. And we repeat those and we try to find ways to enhance that or build on the skills that you already knew how to do and do very well. In fact, I do recall a lot that you were, "Yep, familiar with this. I know how to do this." But what we were experiencing, yes, some of the anxiety was being manageable, but it wasn't getting to a point where you're okay. And correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly, it wasn't... We weren't making the progress that I think you were hoping for.0:11:02 Evelyn: Well, I think I kind of got to the point where I thought this is as good as it's gonna get.0:11:08 Daniel: Yes, yes.0:11:10 Evelyn: And I guess this is life. And that's okay. I mean, it's not too bad. I'll just have to do my best and take a day at a time.0:11:16 Daniel: Well, hold on a second. When you say, "It's not too bad," I think we need to put that in context. You've lived a life of anxiety, so you're not too bad. And yeah, don't let me misspeak. I don't wanna put words in your mouth. But I think... To some degree, I think you're minimizing it. You were struggling.0:11:35 Evelyn: Well, yes. I was struggling, but I guess I figured that we reached the point where I had gotten before, which was manageable.0:11:45 Daniel: Manageable. Okay.0:11:47 Evelyn: And figured that this was... What I was going to do was I was going to kind of do a cycle where I could manage it, and then maybe changes in life or something would happen that would increase the stress, and then I would go downhill, and then I would get some help, and then I would bring it back to manageable. And that would kind of be life. But that's as good as I could hope for, so I should make the best of it.0:12:13 Daniel: So what happened from there? Why didn't we just quit, say we succeeded and moved on?0:12:20 Evelyn: Well, that's a good question. I don't know. I think that you brought up some interesting points that I hadn't considered before, and at first I thought that they didn't have anything to do with me.0:12:34 Daniel: Tell us about those points. What points were we bringing up?0:12:37 Evelyn: Well, I remember you bringing up, at one point, just... Well, how do you feel about your sexual health? And I thought, "How should I know?" I think that's what I said. "How should I know?" I was single and being an active temple-attending member of the church. That meant that I didn't really have a sexual life. So it seemed like something that was disconnected.0:13:11 Daniel: It's interesting even now, when you recall this, and you're a lot more informed now, you went immediately to the sexual experiences. I'm not married.0:13:22 Evelyn: Right.0:13:23 Daniel: And so was it even on the forefront of your mind, sexual health, 'cause that was the question that was what was being explored, was much more than just physical intimacy with somebody else. And so even now when you're talking about it goes, you're recalling, right?0:13:40 Evelyn: Oh, yeah. I'm remembering that I didn't really see any other sides to the issue.0:13:46 Daniel: So what was that experience like, coming from your therapist, even a male therapist, what was your experience hearing it come out as even something to be suggested or thought about. And as again, as a male therapist, any thoughts or feelings around all that?0:14:03 Evelyn: I would say that initially I rejected it, and put it aside as something that didn't really apply to me, but it did plant some seeds of thought that I returned to on my own.0:14:21 Daniel: What prompted you to return to it? So that seed was planted.0:14:27 Evelyn: Well, I think one thing that prompted me to return to it was that I think in a session, I actually brought up the idea that I think that this is as good as it's gonna get. This is kind of what I live with, this is... This is how it's going to go, this is how my life's gonna go. And you said I don't buy that. And I thought, well, maybe you're wrong. [laughter]0:14:56 Daniel: You always told me you like forwardness, directness. So, yes, I thought there was much more potential there I didn't think we had to suffer with just manageable. So where did that take your thoughts?0:15:16 Evelyn: Well, I went home and I thought about it and I decided I wanted to give it a try. I guess if you always do what you've always done then you're gonna always get what you've always gotten. So...0:15:30 Daniel: Give what a try?0:15:33 Evelyn: Exploring other ideas, sexual health was one of them. But you did kind of bring up this idea of wholeness.0:15:41 Daniel: Yes.0:15:43 Evelyn: And that there's just so many sides of me as a person and to make some goals in all these different areas.0:15:51 Daniel: Yep, I think so, good memory on that. That's definitely what we do is try to approach it from a wholeness. All too often we get focused on, "Okay, I have anxiety. So just give me the skills and techniques to manage it."0:16:07 Evelyn: Exactly.0:16:08 Daniel: But if there's a possibility to... I'm not gonna say eliminate, I don't think we eliminate anxiety. Everybody experiences anxiety every day at some sort of level, but get to a point where you can actually be proactive about it, or thrive or get it to a point where the management is much, much less, and so we have to step outside of just the managing anxiety aspect, we have to focus on the mental, the spiritual, the physical side of this. And so I think I, well, I'm remembering this because it's a standard procedure I do, I think I even recommended, let's get your blood work done, let's get you... Make sure everything's fine physically, biologically, but this has been around for a long time, and so, this isn't a new... It wasn't like you're coming into a new biological stage of life, although that could have been possible, but we wanted to rule those things out. And so, one thing that you've never explored was that sexual aspect, is my sexual health good and can this be part of the problem?0:17:15 Evelyn: That one was brand new, and some of the other ones were not brand new. Thinking about them altogether was a little bit new, but I'd certainly worked on myself spiritually, I'd worked on myself mentally, I had focused on exercise, and eating right and I mean, all of those things were things that I had done before. Looking at it as a holistic perspective was a little bit different, but they weren't different ideas. It was the sexual health piece that was the different piece, and it felt like it didn't fit. But now when I look back, it feels like... It feels odd to assume that something that's so much an important part of myself would not be a puzzle piece whereas everything else would be, but it was the only piece of it that I had never explored before.0:18:06 Daniel: Looking back now, what do you think was making it feel like it didn't fit?0:18:12 Evelyn: I would say that I had worked pretty hard to make it not a part of myself.0:18:21 Daniel: Yes.0:18:22 Evelyn: And that was in an effort to be as good as possible.0:18:33 Daniel: Tell us more about that, what does that mean? So first of all, the fact that you're saying you worked as hard as you could for it not be a part of... I feel like there's some insinuation going on there. Was this something that you may have or tempted to be struggling with or tempted...0:18:49 Evelyn: I would say that I... Well, to go back when I was young, I discovered that I could stimulate myself.0:19:00 Daniel: How young are we talking about?0:19:00 Evelyn: Oh, maybe between 10 and 12.0:19:02 Daniel: Okay. Entering your teen years, yep, yep.0:19:05 Evelyn: So pretty young, accidentally... And explored it a little bit and...0:19:13 Daniel: Talking about masturbation?0:19:14 Evelyn: Yes. Didn't really have any idea of what I was doing, honestly. I went to youth meetings and things where they would tell you that you should not masturbate. And I didn't have any idea that these things were connected at all.0:19:37 Daniel: Oh, so in those youth meetings, you weren't realizing that's what was happening?0:19:40 Evelyn: Correct. I had no idea what masturbation really was.0:19:43 Daniel: You were just hearing this terminology and you were like, "Oh, okay, I'm not gonna do this."0:19:46 Evelyn: Yeah, absolutely not. It was clearly a bad thing, I was not gonna do it.0:19:50 Daniel: So at what point did you realize what you were doing between 10 and 12 was actually what they were saying don't do?0:19:57 Evelyn: Well, I did it occasionally.0:20:01 Daniel: In your teen years?0:20:02 Evelyn: In my teen years. It wasn't actually until I picked up a teen magazine that was sitting on a table at the library sometime around the age of maybe 14-15, something like that, that the magazine actually gave me a clear enough definition of masturbation that I was able to make the connection.0:20:22 Daniel: Interesting. So, what were you experiencing when you had that connection?0:20:26 Evelyn: I was devastated, I was completely devastated. And...0:20:31 Daniel: About how old were you at this time?0:20:34 Evelyn: I would say maybe 15.0:20:37 Speaker 1: 15. Pretty young.0:20:39 Evelyn: So I just... I felt incredibly ashamed and that I had managed to do something so terrible without even realizing that I was doing it.0:20:50 Daniel: So how did you respond to that?0:20:55 Evelyn: I think that's when I started to try to avoid any...0:21:02 Daniel: It became an active suppressing.0:21:06 Evelyn: Yes, yeah, that was when I kind of began the process of trying to avoid any accidental, 'cause I did my best to avoid any masturbation, but I also tried to avoid any reading something that might accidentally make my mind go that direction. I mean, I was really working hard.0:21:30 Daniel: Totally shut it off?0:21:32 Evelyn: Mm-hmm. Yes.0:21:34 Daniel: And in all intents and purposes, that's really what the ideal was communicated in these youth meetings, don't stim... I mean, for the strength of youth, right?0:21:40 Evelyn: Yes.0:21:40 Daniel: And so you've spent from 15 on when you discovered, made the connection with this magazine, and your behavior and these youth meetings. Well, was there any kind of formal repentance or did you discuss this with leadership?0:21:57 Evelyn: Not at that point, but I did about when I was a freshman in college. So about the age of 17.0:22:04 Daniel: Is that because you were struggling with it or...0:22:06 Evelyn: Yeah, I would say I hadn't been able to 100% cut it off, so I didn't...0:22:12 Daniel: But this wasn't like a daily thing for you, it was like...0:22:15 Evelyn: No.0:22:16 Daniel: Once in a blue moon kind of.0:22:16 Evelyn: It was occasional. Yeah. It was occasional.0:22:18 Daniel: Wanting to clear the air with the bishop.0:22:21 Evelyn: Or, and sometimes it wasn't even physical stimulation, maybe it was just mental. My thoughts might go a different direction, but I would find myself feeling stimulated so it wasn't...0:22:30 Daniel: So when you say you worked hard.0:22:32 Evelyn: I did.0:22:32 Daniel: Not only your sexual arousal but your thoughts, your feelings, all around it.0:22:37 Evelyn: Well I... Yeah, I felt that sometimes I would have thoughts that would lead me toward arousal, and I would feel some physical response, thoughts that I was having or something that I might read or anything like that. And so I...0:22:54 Daniel: So you're a completely different person today because I remember when you first would even start to... I don't even think you would say the word masturbation.0:23:03 Evelyn: No, I didn't say the word masturbation for a long time.0:23:06 Daniel: Even I think maybe eventually you did with me. I don't remember exactly the timeline, but even your mind going there, there was a clear anxiety being provoked.0:23:17 Evelyn: Oh, very much so, yes.0:23:19 Daniel: And did you notice that at the time or was that even something that you were physically aware that was happening? You literally really physically changed.0:23:28 Evelyn: Yeah, I think I'm aware of it. Yeah.0:23:31 Daniel: Prior to 15, I realize we're going back 15, 20 years. Do you feel like before you made this discovery, that you were masturbating, that your anxiety was as severe?0:23:48 Evelyn: It was not. However, I couldn't necessarily say whether that was because of this discovery.0:23:55 Daniel: Absolutely, and I wanna be careful with that...0:23:57 Evelyn: 'Cause I think it...0:24:00 Daniel: Again, 15-20 years ago, we don't know.0:24:00 Evelyn: Right. I think it grew for who knows how many different factors.0:24:05 Daniel: As you're entering puberty too, that's... Or you're well into puberty. Yeah. So all these feelings are coming up which could add to... So yeah, clear, I'm not making any... I can't go there and say that was the cause of it. But now you're in your 20s, you're in your 30s, you've spent 15-20 years going on and off medication, managing. Now we start to explore this. And one thing I really appreciated about you is usually I have a... My clients fall into one of maybe three different categories: One, when we explore... I have seven principles that I explore and that includes mental health, spiritual health, physical health, sexual health, so forth. And usually when we get to the sexual health part, especially with single adults, I get one of maybe three different reactions, one is, oh, no, they never even... Even just mentioning, how is your sexual health? It's very rare, but sometimes I get them... They'll never even come back.0:25:07 Daniel: So I'll get some people who are like, okay, whatever it takes, and then we get people that I think are more like you. I need to think about this. And I really, really value that, because that's part of therapy is getting you to be that individual and you have no problem with differentiating from other people, and so that didn't surprise me, but the thought process, both spiritual and mental, that you put into it was impressive, and I admired, I fully admired how you approach this. You didn't just say, "Whatever you say, Dan. Let's figure this out," and for you as somebody who wanted to get rid of your anxiety, you didn't just jump on and say... So tell us... I'll stop talking there, but you tell us what that process was like from your end. That's what I observed.0:26:00 Evelyn: Okay, sure. Well, after I kind of went through college, when I didn't see a bishop and talked through everything and then no more, I'd really cut off that part of myself as much as possible. No, sexuality is not really a part of who I am. I need to focus on the spiritual, I need to focus on the mental, I can focus on the physical. Those are all okay, but this other part is something that I'm just saving for until after I'm married. Then we came to the point where you brought it up and asked me to make a goal and I started very small.0:26:45 Daniel: Yes.0:26:46 Evelyn: I said I will think about it. I will think about sex for a few minutes. I feel comfortable going that far, but thinking about it started me wondering if there might be something that was missing in my life, and I still didn't connect it to anxiety, not really, but I thought as long as I was working on everything else, maybe I would continue to work in this area as well, and...0:27:22 Daniel: What started to happen? So we're talking about, and I put a timeline in just to give an appreciation, it's not that it was fast or slow or anything like that, but we're talking about months. You were taking...0:27:38 Evelyn: It started to happen, yeah.0:27:40 Daniel: Yeah, so what was the process? You started...0:27:42 Evelyn: Okay.0:27:42 Daniel: So let's explain the thinking about sex a little bit more there. The goal there, do you recall what it was? I'm not, I don't mean to put you on the spot.0:27:52 Evelyn: Do I recall what it was? I remember that there was a goal in every area, and that the one that I felt like I could do was I would think about this issue.0:28:00 Daniel: Being aware of your own sexuality, what are your own desires and thoughts, getting... So the goal was to get in tune, in connection with yourself, your sexual identity, what does that look like? And what does that feel like? And so you started to explore that a little bit more.0:28:19 Evelyn: Yeah, and it was not fast at, it was not a fast process for me, but what I started to notice was that beginning to recognize this piece of myself changed. The first thing I think I noticed it changing was my interactions with other people. I started to feel more open and able to communicate with people. I had a roommate, we'd lived together for some time and we got along reasonably well, but we were just roommates. I mean, kind of ships passing in the night, and one day I started talking with her and our relationship began to grow and to change. And...0:29:13 Daniel: You talking, you mean just casual conversations.0:29:16 Evelyn: At first, yeah, but then eventually, we started talking about deeper things, and discovering that we had more in common than we thought.0:29:26 Daniel: I think it's important, I think you, we alluded to it with the anxiety but part of this, I think the audience should understand is how much of an introvert you are.0:29:35 Evelyn: Oh, very.0:29:36 Daniel: And so just talking with your roommate, you liked your roommate, this had nothing to do with personalities or anything, just you're on probably the higher end of being an introvert than most introverts. And so just having this conversation, how do you feel that was connected to your exploring your sexuality?0:29:55 Evelyn: Well, at the time, I didn't understand it at all, it didn't make sense to me, it was just an observation. So if we're kind of going on the journey, at the time I was noticing that this was happening more and more, but I wasn't clear how it connected.0:30:18 Daniel: So at this time, you're not masturbating, you're...0:30:20 Evelyn: No, just thinking.0:30:20 Daniel: Just explain... What is my sexual identity. Let's just call it that, and doing that, opening that up was starting to allow you to open up to other people.0:30:37 Evelyn: If I'm going to reflect from a position of having travelled a long way from where I was.0:30:44 Daniel: Yes.0:30:45 Evelyn: I think it has something to do with that wholeness piece. There was a part of myself that I was hiding and I was hiding it even from myself. That was my goal, was to hide it even from myself, and because I was hiding it, I felt vulnerable so much of the time, I felt so nervous and yes, I am an introvert and that hasn't changed.0:31:13 Daniel: No.0:31:14 Evelyn: I will continue to be one. But I was so afraid of being found out almost that I had this piece of myself, that was hidden and I...0:31:26 Daniel: Your sexual self.0:31:27 Evelyn: Right. But it's not like I could have pinpointed that that was why I was nervous in any way, but I think that the fact that I was fragmenting myself a little bit, and keeping...0:31:40 Daniel: That's a great way to say it, yeah.0:31:42 Evelyn: Keeping a part of myself away even from me, increased my anxiety and increased the difficulty that I had interacting with people, I was always so nervous, I was very hypersensitive about the reactions that other people were giving me. And anything that seemed negative I took on myself very, very deeply, and...0:32:08 Daniel: We're talking like at work, your social life, at church events, every interaction, even talking with your roommate, you're...0:32:17 Evelyn: Yeah, I was always looking for any negative signs, anything that was wrong, and trying to fit myself into something that would never, ever receive a negative, negative feedback of any kind from anybody, which is so hard to do that pretty much it involved trying to avoid interactions.0:32:37 Daniel: Absolutely. So tell us more. You're starting to explore your sexual identity. Now that you're looking back, you didn't know at the time how or why that would have a positive impact on even your interaction and in minimizing this.0:32:53 Evelyn: I found it confusing, honestly.0:32:54 Daniel: So what did you do with that confusion?0:32:56 Evelyn: Well, I felt like I don't know why this is working, but it seems to be.0:33:05 Daniel: So you were seeing results.0:33:06 Evelyn: Yes, I was seeing results.0:33:07 Daniel: Right.0:33:07 Evelyn: I was seeing positive interactions. I was finding myself... I mean, I bring up the roommate, but there were other indications too. I mean, at work, I found myself willing to step forward a little bit more and disagree with people at times and tell them things that I thought as opposed to what I thought they were looking for.0:33:28 Daniel: This was an impressive time, because your anxiety for the first time that we're seeing wasn't just managed and reduced, your confidence was increasing.0:33:36 Evelyn: Right. Yeah. I felt very different. I have a sister-in-law that I've come to have quite a good relationship with at this point, but I will say that the first, quite a lot of years of my brother's marriage to her, I was terrified of her, because she has a tendency to give negative feedback unintentionally.0:33:58 Daniel: She was feeding the cycle.0:34:00 Evelyn: Yeah. So, I mean, I just thought she hated me. Every time I was in the room, I would just feel... My heart would be pounding and my stomach would be tight and I would be so nervous, because I felt like there was no way that I could get the right feedback from her, and I found myself... She came in one day and said something, and I could have easily taken it the wrong way, and I thought, "I don't think she means anything by that."0:34:25 Daniel: Interesting.0:34:27 Evelyn: And just kind of let it go, and opened the door to actually having a positive relationship with her, because I was no longer living in this place where I was always, always worried about what other people thought of me.0:34:46 Daniel: So why didn't you end it there? You got success you haven't had before. What made you go to the next step?0:34:55 Evelyn: Well, I would say that the first thing that made me go the next step was that you suggested that I might wanna consider masturbation. And I thought that was a terrible idea.[laughter]0:35:08 Daniel: What was going through... In this experience, what was happening?0:35:13 Evelyn: Well, you mentioned it and I...0:35:17 Daniel: Now, let's be clear, I wanna... For the audience to understand it. This wasn't, "Go home and do this."0:35:23 Evelyn: No.0:35:24 Daniel: So, what was the invitation, do you recall?0:35:27 Evelyn: I think you said something like, "Have you ever considered or tried masturbation? Has that ever been a part of your exploration?" I don't remember your words exactly, but it was somewhere along those lines.0:35:44 Daniel: Yup. And I think that was pretty close, 'cause at that point where I started to see more anxiety come up from what we know now, was from your teenage years and it's like, "Woah," so that seed was planted, what happened from there?0:36:00 Evelyn: Well, I didn't wanna dismiss it out of hand, because I was interacting with someone that I had respect for, and that I had seen positive success from what we'd been working on so far. At the same time, I was pretty terrified that it might destroy my relationship with my Heavenly Father, because that always has been and remains one of the most important relationships in my life.0:36:34 Daniel: And still is.0:36:35 Evelyn: Yeah, and still is. And I wanted to make sure that I didn't ever engage in anything that would impact that negatively. So, I was kind of torn between this fear of harming that relationship, and considering the progress that I've made.0:37:03 Daniel: Yes.0:37:03 Evelyn: And that trusting you in the past had led to some positive things.0:37:09 Daniel: You were trusting yourself.0:37:12 Evelyn: And that's true, I was. But it was your idea that I should explore sexual health in some way.0:37:20 Daniel: That's correct.[chuckle]0:37:23 Evelyn: So, I did have that on my mind too. So trying to balance those things, I went back and forth a lot. And...0:37:35 Daniel: What does back and forth mean? What were you doing...0:37:38 Evelyn: Back and forth as in, "Maybe I should try this, wonder what would happen, I wonder how that would impact me? Nope, never gonna do it. Nope, that would be a terrible thing."0:37:48 Daniel: Talk about your relationship with the Lord in this process, how did you include or not include Him?0:37:58 Evelyn: I definitely prayed, and my prayer was something along the lines of help me not do something that I will regret, and help me let... Help let me know if I'm going to do something that would be detrimental to our relationship. So there were a lot of prayers like that. I would say, I didn't feel a lot one way or the other at that point, as far as an answer to that prayer.0:38:26 Daniel: Was that confusing to you?0:38:29 Evelyn: Not terribly. I think that I've gotten some clear answers in my life and a lot of times that I've been encouraged to figure things out myself.0:38:40 Daniel: So is that what you did?0:38:45 Evelyn: Yeah, at least at that moment, and what I did...0:38:47 Daniel: So, what... Yup.0:38:49 Evelyn: Was I decided I was not going to masturbate, and I came back and I told you that. And I felt wonderful.0:39:02 Daniel: Yes, you did, you were glowing.0:39:06 Evelyn: And... Yeah.0:39:07 Daniel: I remember that, and I praised you for that. What was the focus of my praise? Do you recall?0:39:15 Evelyn: I don't recall.0:39:16 Daniel: You made the decision.0:39:18 Evelyn: Well, that's... I mean, I think that that for me was the thing that I came to. Yeah, I mean, it was the first decision I had ever really made, sexually, in my life.0:39:30 Daniel: Yes. That's exactly right. And that was one of the indicators to me, 'cause as you're just talking about a lot of your life, your lot of... What was feeding your anxiety was what... The impressions of what other people were having on you or at least your interpretation of their responses to you.0:39:48 Evelyn: Yes.0:39:50 Daniel: And...0:39:51 Evelyn: A lot of it was interpretation.0:39:53 Daniel: And what you were just saying also about me, you respected me, both as a... And that's something I take... I don't take lightly, as a therapist, and... Especially within our faith, how do we guide individuals to healthy living while also maintaining their level of faith, their love of God, and supporting them in those areas of their life? And you didn't just do this because I recommended it. You came back with a decision, you prayed about it, you pondered about it, you researched about it, and you came in and you were glowing. Now, this was your choice, and that was amazing.0:40:41 Evelyn: Yeah. Yeah, the making of the choice was a claiming of my agency in regards to sexuality that I had never made before. Everything I'd done prior to that point was an effort to please somebody else, really.0:41:02 Daniel: Even suppressing your sexual health?0:41:04 Evelyn: Yes, yes.0:41:07 Daniel: That is huge. And I can't... I mean, we're exploring this in the environment of the therapeutic office, but I had seen this, this wasn't a new occurrence, I had seen this over and over, where people had abandoned their agency around their sexual health and the same or similar things occurred. So this was not new to me, but to see it come out of you was just this light bulb moment. So, what did we do from there? What's... We were done with therapy, right? You were perfect, you're healthy.0:41:43 Evelyn: Yeah, isn't that great?[chuckle]0:41:45 Daniel: And end of story, right?[chuckle]0:41:47 Evelyn: Of course. [chuckle] Well, I mean, what you did at that point was say, "Okay, that's your decision. Go with that."0:41:57 Daniel: Yes.0:42:00 Evelyn: But I kind of continued to think about it, and I think that I felt so freed by the fact that I owned this part of myself, that I...0:42:16 Daniel: Was it scary owning it?0:42:20 Evelyn: No, actually.0:42:23 Daniel: That's interesting. The audience can't see her, she's glowing right now [chuckle] when she responds to that. [chuckle] Tell us more about that. Why was that not scary? This thing was scary all your life.0:42:37 Evelyn: It was scary on my life and I thought it would be scary, you know? I mean, I thought it would be terrifying, because it had worried me so much, and had been... I mean, I would have such a physical response even to the word masturbation, if anyone else ever said it, I would just feel... I would kind of start to sweat and I'd feel my stomach tighten up and I'd feel just... All my muscles kind of get tight, which was why I couldn't say it. I would dance around the term as much as possible. It was so frightening to me and yet when I made that decision, I was very nervous to tell you. I'll tell you that. I mean, when I came in...0:43:27 Daniel: I noticed and I...0:43:28 Evelyn: Yeah.[chuckle]0:43:28 Daniel: Absolutely. Hopefully I came across very respectful?0:43:32 Evelyn: You did, you did. But I mean, that part was nervous...0:43:34 Daniel: Of course.0:43:36 Evelyn: But nerve-racking, but when I made the decision and then when I moved on to owning it, it lost its fear. I mean, I lost so much fear around that, and I gained so much confidence to make decisions in other areas of my life too, I think.0:43:58 Daniel: How much of that was or was any of it, the fact that you're working with a male therapist or was it just the nature of the topic? Did me being a male therapist enhance that nervousness?0:44:12 Evelyn: Well, probably. Yeah, it probably did.0:44:15 Daniel: How did you navigate that or how did you resolve that? Or was it a factor that you felt like you had to address?0:44:24 Evelyn: I didn't really resolve or address. I think it probably did increase my anxiety a bit around it, made it more nerve-racking than it would have been with a woman, but I didn't really... I mean, it wasn't so overwhelming that I really had resolve it, I think.0:44:46 Daniel: The ability to speak it, to vocalize it was freeing.0:44:50 Evelyn: Yes, it really was.0:44:54 Daniel: So you made your decision, you are... You have no need to masturbate, you owned it, your health was improved and we were done with therapy.0:45:05 Evelyn: No, no, we weren't.[laughter]0:45:07 Daniel: So take it to the next step, what's happening?0:45:13 Evelyn: So the next step was continuing. I continued to work on some of those goals, I was thinking, I was reading, I was studying, I was considering and pondering and praying, and all of those kinds of things, and then I really felt like, actually, I do wanna understand my body, I wanna understand my desire, I want to better understand this whole piece of myself and I made the decision that I did want to try masturbation.0:45:48 Daniel: I want the audience to understand how thorough you are, 'cause if somebody doesn't know you and hearing what you just said, you continued to think about it. They don't understand how much of a... Exaggeration, that is.0:46:07 Evelyn: Think about it for me.0:46:09 Daniel: You read every book there was.0:46:11 Evelyn: I did, yeah.0:46:12 Daniel: You scoured the internet, you... Both religious materials, sexual health, you picked up books like And They Were Not Ashamed and you dove right in.0:46:24 Evelyn: Read about half a dozen different books cover to cover.0:46:27 Daniel: You're taking the doctrine covenants to heart, read and study and ponder. So I think it's important for the audience, because they don't know you. And so when I hear that you're pondering this, I know that you are diving and this is beyond just thinking.0:46:42 Evelyn: I am a researcher.0:46:44 Daniel: Yes, you are.0:46:45 Evelyn: When I got a cat about 15 years ago or so, I spent a good three days researching all the different names that I might actually name the cat before coming to a decision. If anyone wants to know what product that they should buy that I've already bought, they just ask me, because I have done all the research, I have read 15 different articles, about the 10 best and then looked at what they all had in common and then compared the pros and cons. I am an extremely careful person.0:47:19 Daniel: So you went into this well aware of what the church leadership, what the culture is, what you've read, but you're feeling that this... I'm gonna put the word positive desire, or desire to explore this, and when I say desire, it's not just arousal desire. Go ahead, tell us more about that.0:47:45 Evelyn: I would say it wasn't arousal desire at that point, it was a desire for increased understanding. That's what I was looking for was a fuller understanding of myself, and I prayed more and again, there was a lot of I'm feeling good about this decision, and if it's not right, please help me to know that. I really, I really didn't take it lightly.0:48:20 Daniel: Yeah, so what was your answer, what did you end up doing?0:48:29 Evelyn: I felt good about it, and so I decided that I would try masturbation and see what happened, and so I did and I felt that understanding, what I was looking for, I felt more in tune with myself, and it wasn't even primarily arousal, it was more that this was a better knowledge of who I am as a person. This is what my body can do, this is the gifts that I've been given, this is... This whole body is a gift and I would like to understand it better. And now I do. So that was, that was more what it was about for me, I think, than it was arousal and orgasm, it was who am I? And I did feel like I developed my relationship with myself.0:49:39 Daniel: What... I realize you're not even thinking about this, but I know the audience is listening and wondering maybe pornography was not involved.0:49:50 Evelyn: No.0:49:51 Daniel: This is a self-understanding. This was so huge. You connected with yourself, with the Spirit. I don't wanna misuse any terminology here, but you seem to increase in your wellness.0:50:13 Evelyn: Yeah, I would say that... I wouldn't go so far as to say that masturbation was in and of itself a spiritual experience for me. However, what I would say is that as I became more aware of myself that led to things in my life that led to increased spirituality. For example, the appreciation of my body and of the gift that I have received through my body, what I found myself doing was becoming offended by TV shows that made light of sexuality, that had previously not had that impact on me. Previously, I could watch these shows, they really kind of just... Some of these jokes just washed over me. It was just the way that jokes are, and yet suddenly they were bothering me more because they were making light of this thing that was a gift, and so I began to change my media habits and that kind of thing I do think led to overall increased spirituality for me.0:51:28 Daniel: You're being able to own your own sexuality, you start to have more confidence around people interacting and socializing more, now understanding your physical self, your sexual self physically, you're starting to have a more profound appreciation for how sex is represented in media, that is profound, that is a response that you... I don't think everybody has that response. And I don't wanna set this up as though you go out and masturbate, and you're gonna reject all forms of unhealthy sex. But this is key. This is, I think, part of your personality and was part of your healing and growing into your whole self, and that was a part of your personality you don't want to be exposed to that, you want to appreciate what God has given you. And the media was a distraction to that. Am I understanding that right?0:52:28 Evelyn: Yeah, I would say that, yeah, that's pretty solid. I think it was, for me personally, in my experience, it was before the different little jokes and things like that. They didn't mean anything to me because it wasn't even...0:52:51 Daniel: On your radar.0:52:53 Evelyn: A part of me. But now suddenly it was a part of me, it was impacting me and I felt like I needed to make those changes, so certainly not something I would expect of everybody, but in my personal journey, that's how it went.0:53:08 Daniel: So, you're emotionally understanding your sexual health, you're physically understanding it, now we're good. Your life is great, is that true?0:53:18 Evelyn: Well, my life is different.0:53:20 Daniel: It is different. I think there was some more progress going on there and some new skills that you were learning.0:53:29 Evelyn: Well, I'll insert another person at this point, which is that this is about the point that I met my husband, and I think that this process kind of prepared me for meeting him, because I was able to talk to him. We were able to discuss things. When we started, I was more comfortable, I was less concerned about what he was thinking about me than I had been in previous relationships where, who knows if they might have worked out or not otherwise, but one reason they definitely weren't going to work out was because I wasn't myself in them, I was too concerned about the way I was being perceived, so I'd reached the point where I was not feeling that in that same way, it was more like, "This is who I am. And let's see if we happen to be compatible and if we're not, it's not a judgement on me, you can go find somebody else."0:54:35 Daniel: You were much more relaxed about this relationship.0:54:37 Evelyn: So more relaxed, yes, than I had been in previous relationships.0:54:42 Daniel: It's interesting 'cause I can't recall if we've ever had this conversation, because I was on the outside looking at as you're sharing your meeting your now husband, and I was wondering the same things, if this, if your ability to understand yourself was helping. It seems like it would be logical, but not necessarily, it doesn't always happen this way, but that was transferring well into your relationship with him.0:55:07 Evelyn: It was... Yeah, I think the biggest one really was that I liked myself. Not every single tiny little bit of myself.0:55:18 Daniel: But you valued...0:55:20 Evelyn: But in general. I thought I was...0:55:22 Daniel: You were no more rejecting parts of yourself.0:55:24 Evelyn: Yeah, exactly.0:55:25 Daniel: And the things that you were not liking, because this isn't about liking every single thing about you. I think that's a beautiful thing if you can do that. Reality is, we're human and we're imperfect and there's gonna be things about ourselves that we don't always love. And you were able to acknowledge those parts without shaming it, without suppressing it, including... I'm talking other things besides just the sexual health part. And so that was making you a more whole person able to interact with your now husband better.0:55:58 Daniel: Definitely. So we got to know each other and we went from levels of just getting to know each other to having more deep conversations. I felt like I was able to be more vulnerable, and he was too. And then we were eventually able to talk about some of these issues, and that also brought us closer and helped me.0:56:26 Daniel: You mean before you married? Are you talking about your issues around anxiety and using masturbation as a coping mechanism, or understanding...0:56:37 Evelyn: Not really a coping mechanism, but that I had had anxiety, that I'd tried different things, we talked about that. We did talk about sexuality before marriage.0:56:47 Daniel: Which is something you would never done before.0:56:49 Evelyn: No, I really wouldn't have, I don't think I would have been able to, but I had the vocabulary, and this wasn't like early in our relationship.0:56:58 Daniel: No, no, no, you guys were... This was clearly at a point that you guys were committed.0:57:03 Evelyn: Yes. Before we discussed, anything that deep, but...0:57:08 Daniel: So at this point, let's backtrack just a little bit here. With the use of masturbation, was this a one or two time occurrence, or was this something that you now incorporated into a healthy routine or part of your life? What was it for you?0:57:25 Evelyn: I'm gonna say somewhere in between those two. It wasn't something that was a routine. Every so often I would masturbate but I wasn't afraid of that either. And so at times I would choose to do that.0:57:45 Daniel: You recognized the benefits and you were able to use it as... Is that fair to say?0:57:50 Evelyn: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's here to say.0:57:53 Daniel: So, the reason when I bring that up, is you now have this additional tool, if you will, in your skill set and understanding yourself and also addressing anxiety. I'm going to assume, I know, but you're dating your husband. How is the stress level? How's your anxiety? Does it ever spike again or what do you deal... How do you deal with your anxiety?0:58:21 Evelyn: I would say that when we got really close to getting married, I got really anxious. Luckily, I was able to talk about it because I have a husband who's really good at communicating and so he is able to ask me about things, and then I was able to tell him, so I was able to talk about how I was feeling, and the communication reduced my anxiety.0:58:51 Daniel: Which is something you wouldn't have done before, talk, you would have...0:58:55 Evelyn: Talking was not one of my management strategies for anxiety.0:59:02 Daniel: Even though you knew it would help. So that was one of the things that you struggled with. But being able to have the confidence now, and reduced anxiety, or at least anxiety to a level that you can now engage in that conversation, but your pattern in the past was to shut down, become more independent. And would you... In the past, how would you have handled that fear of getting married, how would that have played out?0:59:32 Evelyn: Okay, well, I would have run away. And I guess I wanna correct the no talking, because it's not that I wouldn't talk to anybody, but I wouldn't talk to the person.0:59:45 Daniel: Yes, a good clarification, yes.0:59:48 Evelyn: And I would just run and hide. When I was in college I knew where all of the women's bathrooms were that were really comfortable and had couches in them, because should I be avoiding someone who I was dating who was causing me anxiety, I would spend a lot of time there, because I knew that that was not a place they would go. So running away was a strategy that I used and would probably have been what I would have done. Just run away.1:00:21 Daniel: So you got married?1:00:22 Evelyn: I did.1:00:23 Daniel: Yes, and now, you're having sex?1:00:30 Evelyn: Uh-huh.1:00:32 Daniel: How did the things you learned before marriage help you or not help you in your sex life?1:00:39 Evelyn: Oh, boy, they helped me, but there was a long way to go.1:00:45 Daniel: So it wasn't automatic, you now...1:00:47 Evelyn: No way.1:00:49 Daniel: And part of this also is you're learning yourself in a later phase of your life, and so this is... Even if you're learning earlier on there's no comparison to having another intimate person in your sexual life. And so as much as you're comfortable tell us about the... What are some obstacles you had to face and how did you use these skills to help you through it?1:01:14 Evelyn: Okay, well, the major obstacle that we ran into was that sex was very painful for me. And I think that if I had not had the experiences prior to marriage that I had, I would have had no idea what to do from there. I would either have completely cut off sex and decided that that was not something we could do, or honestly, more likely I would have continued to say yes but absolutely hated it and felt every experience being something that pushed me farther away rather than bringing me closer to my husband.1:02:03 Daniel: So you mentioned painful sex?1:02:05 Evelyn: Yes.1:02:06 Daniel: You later found out through a medical check-up what that was and something that a lot of people still don't understand. Do you mind talking about that?1:02:13 Evelyn: No, I don't mind at all. I guess this goes back to how my prior experiences helped me, because I was willing to talk about it and so we had a lot of conversations, my husband and I, and I really felt committed to figuring out what was going on, and part of that was going to see the doctor. So I made an appointment with my OBGYN.1:02:37 Daniel: You knew something was wrong, whereas before, you may not have, you just might have thought, "Okay, this is just what sex is."1:02:44 Evelyn: Yeah, I might have. I mean, that would have been devastating, but yeah, I might have, but I did know that wasn't what it was supposed to be like, and I went and I spoke with the doctor, and she did some checking, and she said that I had vaginismus and she prescribed some physical therapy, so I was able to go and work with a physical therapist weekly for several months.1:03:20 Daniel: These involved dilators?1:03:20 Evelyn: Mm-hmm. Yeah, we did dilators, we did massage, which not as fun as the other kind of massage, sorry, but was helpful. [chuckle]1:03:30 Daniel: Not With a physical therapist. But it was helpful.1:03:34 Evelyn: It was helpful.1:03:35 Daniel: Joking aside, it was helpful.1:03:37 Evelyn: All joking aside, it was helpful, because I started to gradually get to work on the physical part. I didn't enjoy using the dilators at all.1:03:48 Daniel: No. I can't even imagine.1:03:49 Evelyn: Not very fun, but I could put on a TV show or something like that, and distract myself a little bit.1:03:56 Daniel: So the physical therapist... Way to be, way to order support there. The dilators, the physical therapist, did that help resolve the pain?1:04:10 Evelyn: It definitely made significant progress toward it, but it was incomplete without the communication.1:04:17 Daniel: Was masturbation involved in this at all?1:04:21 Evelyn: Little bit, yeah.1:04:22 Daniel: So in your marriage, you're using masturbation.1:04:25 Evelyn: Well, what I used it for, I would say at that point, was to assist me with the physical therapy.1:04:32 Daniel: Yes. That would make sense.1:04:35 Evelyn: Because it did help there.1:04:35 Daniel: Warm things up. Yeah.1:04:37 Evelyn: Yeah, exactly.1:04:39 Daniel: What about other times in your marriage, do you... Was masturbation used as a...1:04:45 Evelyn: Hasn't been, really. Not that it never would be, but we've done other things.1:04:51 Daniel: Good.[chuckle]1:04:57 Evelyn: I feel like the physical aspects were part of it, and so I was able to work on those, but the other piece of it that was really important was being able to work on the psychological and talk and go slow and be patient and enjoy whatever it is that we can enjoy, what pieces of it, as we continue to develop.1:05:23 Daniel: Evelyn, you've been so open here, and I assure you there are many listening to this who maybe even in tears, just feeling comforted from the words that you're using. Is there any, as we're wrapping up here, any advice that you would specifically give young women maybe who were in your shoes as a teenager or currently are, or anyone, what advice would you give?1:05:54 Evelyn: Well, I think something that I would like to have been able to tell my younger self is that, that feeling arousal is something that happens to people, and I felt so alone because of the way that it was being talked about, and I don't want to villainize any of the wonderful people that I got to work with as a youth, because they were incredible leaders. They touched my life and they blessed my life in so many ways, and they were absolutely doing the best that they could. Having said that, though, no one ever told me that feeling arousal is something that people experience and that it is not a sin, and it's just something that happens because that's the way we're built.1:06:58

0:00:05 Daniel: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess, is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:29 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today we have on the line, Anarie. And she will be sharing with us, her personal experiences around porn addiction in her relationship, and her experiences with addiction recovery treatment. Welcome to the show, Anarie.0:00:49 Anarie: Thanks Daniel.0:00:51 Daniel: Tell us a little bit about yourself. Give us some details, who are you, and tell us a little bit about your experience?0:01:00 Anarie: Hey. I am in my early 30s. I'm an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have two kids, ages eight and five. I was married for 11 years. We were married in a temple. And we had our divorce finalized about four months ago, and separated about a year ago. So, that's kinda where I'm at.0:01:24 Daniel: This is pretty recent and fresh. And I appreciate you, even with that, coming on and sharing your experiences here. Give us a little background on the... You shared with me that, was it your husband or you, who is experiencing the issues around pornography? Let's start there.0:01:47 Anarie: It was my husband.0:01:48 Daniel: Your husband. And how long into the marriage or before the marriage did you know that there was a problem?0:01:55 Anarie: So, we dated for about nine months before we got married. A pretty short time. Looking back at the time, it seemed like a long time. But about two months into our dating, kind of the time when we went fairly exclusive, he told me that he had had struggles with pornography before his mission. He was a return missionary at the time we were dating. He told me he'd had some trouble with it before his mission, that he'd resolved it with his Bishop, at that time.0:02:25 Anarie: And that since then, that it had been no issue at all, that he had no struggle with it during his mission. And but since meeting me, felt extra strong and resisting but he wanted me to know that that had been a part of his past. So I took his word for it, that it was in the past and that it was several years since he'd had a struggle with it. At that time, we didn't really talk about it very much other than I basically said, "Hey I don't expect you to be perfect, I'm proud of you for resolving it." And it sort of went to rest at that time.0:03:11 Anarie: Then about nine months after we were married, is when I found out that he was still actively using pornography and masturbating without my knowledge. And I found that out, there were some things off in our marriage, in our sexual relationship right from the beginning. And sort of when I was pressing into some of that, that he admitted that he had viewed some. At that time he told me it was just recent and that he'd never do it again. He felt it wasn't something that he needed to talk to the Bishop about, and I was okay with that. I do feel like I had a trauma response, and I was very anxious to believe that it really was just once or twice and kinda put it away at that time.0:04:11 Daniel: What happened before? So you were at about two months into the relationship, you guys became serious. And from what I'm hearing, it's impressive. Some individuals don't even, if they feel like their porn use or whatever sin it may be, is in the past, sometimes they don't even mention it. But he was mentioning it to you at about two months in. To, I don't know, clear the air, or just keep you informed. Which seemed like a good thing. What was your experience at the time?0:04:45 Daniel: I really value what you said, you said, "You know it's in the past." But emotionally, what were you experiencing? Were you thinking, "Oh boy, this is gonna be a potential issue in the future."? Or did you feel like, "Oh, it's taken care of, this shouldn't be a problem, going forward."? What were you experiencing?0:05:03 Anarie: That's a great question. I was nervous about it. It was a little bit of a concern. And actually, about a month before we got married, my older sister said to me, "Make sure you've talked to him about pornography. Make sure you've asked him about pornography use." And I said. "Oh... "0:05:22 Daniel: She did that just randomly, or did she already know?0:05:25 Anarie: Yes.0:05:25 Daniel: Okay.0:05:26 Anarie: No, she didn't know. And I didn't tell her. I told her, "Yes, we've had the conversation." And she seemed to imply that if there was pornography use that I shouldn't be marrying him. I very much wanted to marry him, so I chose not to tell her that that was something that had been a problem in the past. So I was a little bit nervous about it.0:05:49 Daniel: Did that scare you?0:05:50 Anarie: I knew it could potentially be a problem in the future. Yeah.0:05:53 Daniel: When she said, "If there's any pornography, don't pursue the marriage." I think it sounds pretty clear why you didn't share more, is because he had issues...0:06:05 Anarie: And I think rather than not pursuing the marriage, he was encouraging to take it seriously.0:06:10 Daniel: Oh absolutely, right.0:06:12 Anarie: And to not just dismiss it. Which I probably dismissed it more than I should have.0:06:21 Daniel: You said, before we went back to the dating phase, you were starting to talk about how you're seeing some signs after he'd mentioned he had ongoing issues. Did I hear you correctly?0:06:33 Anarie: Yes, yeah.0:06:34 Daniel: What were those indicators, those red flags, so to speak?0:06:38 Anarie: We did not have a good sexual relationship right from the beginning of our marriage. We didn't have sex very often. There were just a lot of things that were really weird, that seemed like they weren't typical at all for what I'd heard initial marriage was supposed to be like. And...0:07:04 Daniel: For the sake of the listeners and their, for a variety of experiences, are you comfortable with maybe giving some of those specifics? What did you see as...0:07:14 Anarie: Oh, what I was expecting?0:07:15 Daniel: Yeah. What you were expecting, or what seemed off?0:07:18 Anarie: I think I was expecting honeymoon phase, where we have sex multiple times a week, multiple times a day. I felt, before we were married, there was lots of sexual tension and lots of sexual interest, and so in my mind, I thought that once we got married, we were gonna have sex a whole bunch, and it was gonna be really fantastic, and we were gonna want each other whole bunch. And that's not what happened, when we got married there actually was a significant decrease in any sort of sexual tension or sexual interest.0:07:56 Daniel: Even though it sounds like you were wanting more frequent sex at that time, and were you communicating that, or did it just dry up real quick?0:08:08 Anarie: Yes, I was communicating it. Through our whole marriage, we had what would be termed as a sexless marriage, sex fewer than 12 times a year. And I was the one who consistently was saying, "Hey, I want more. This isn't right. What's wrong?" Reading lots of books. I took on a lot of the blame for that, and I think because by taking on the blame myself, it was something that I could fix.0:08:42 Anarie: So I read lots of things about Good Girl Syndrome, about maybe why... 'Cause he would sort of say that I wasn't responding the way that I should, and so he didn't want to, or usually when I tried to talk to him about it, it just sort of... It was almost like we couldn't talk about it, it never went much of anywhere. I expressed a lot of like my things, but then there was never much response from him.0:09:11 Daniel: Traditionally, we think of the husband as the higher sex desire partner. Was that confusing to you to see he had a lower desire than you, and that the sex was infrequent? Was that part of the reason why you're taking on the blame?0:09:27 Anarie: It was very confusing to me, especially because prior to our marriage, I was the boundary keeper, he was always pushing the boundaries sexually, and I was the boundary keeper. So then it was really confusing when we got married, and suddenly it was different. I wasn't feeling that desire from him any more.0:09:51 Daniel: And what was he saying, what was the feedback? And I wanna respect the fact that he's not here, and the listeners are taking this at the value... From your perspective. With that being said, what information was he giving to you? Was he saying that he wasn't attracted to you, or what was the reasoning he was giving?0:10:15 Anarie: Not really any reason at all. After a while, as I read more books and stuff, we did have the high desire-low desire. And so he would say, "I guess I'm just a lower-desire person," or... But no, there was never much explanation. I would say things like, I did believe that he wanted me before marriage and after marriage, he didn't, so that must mean that I was a disappointment, so I was the problem, I think that was part of it too. And so a lot of that, I was the one saying, and he didn't really counter it. I mean, he would say, "No, that's not the case," but then he'd never tell me why or do anything to make me believe anything different, in terms of attractiveness and interest, if that makes sense?0:11:11 Daniel: So the absence of information left you with very little to go off of, and it was like you didn't feel that attraction towards you, and he wasn't refuting it, so what else were you left to believe? Interesting.0:11:24 Anarie: Yeah. And so I filled a lot of that void with my own ideas and my own beliefs, and read books to try to figure it out.0:11:34 Daniel: So from there, that was about, you said, nine months into the marriage. Then when did... You're doing all this research, when did it finally become clear that this was actually being as a result of his porn use or masturbation? How far into that discovery was it?0:11:54 Anarie: Okay, so I'm actually kind of embarrassed that it was so long, but it was years before I really got clear that it was pornography, that it was still an active issue. We went to a couple of therapists, we went to one at LDS Family Services, and this was probably four years into our marriage. And so that was fairly traumatic for me, 'cause it ended up feeling very much like... The therapist that we went to... We only went to one session, so... And it was my first therapy experience, but I felt very much like the male therapist and my male husband were looking at me, confirming that I was the problem and waiting for me to get on board or figure something out. I don't remember any discussion of pornography in that session.0:12:57 Daniel: What were they then saying, or what... How do I ask this? You felt it like you were the problem. What were they identifying as the problem, specifically?0:13:11 Anarie: My lack of trust in him. So that actually... And that's something that my husband would say to me a lot. I would ask him about porn, so during this time, I would ask him about it, and he would tell me, "No, I'm not using it. I haven't for years." And he would say, "You need to trust me." So even though he knew that he was not trustworthy, but that was what he was using. It's something that needed to be resolved, is I needed to forgive and I needed to move on and I needed to trust.0:13:47 Daniel: It was manipulative. He knew he wasn't being trustworthy, yet asking for your trust.0:13:53 Anarie: Right. Yeah, yeah. And I was overriding a lot of my gut instinct. I can see now, looking back, that I didn't feel safe with him, and I didn't trust him, and I wasn't able to connect with him because he wasn't being truthful and he wasn't being safe. But I was so unwilling at that time to look at that reality, to believe that he could be lying to my face, that I was taking it all on myself and trying to fix it that way.0:14:23 Daniel: Unfortunately. An unfortunate event, not only the betrayal from your husband, but coming across the therapist who, is what we call triangulating, siding essentially with one person in the experience. But it sound like you got rid of that person pretty quickly, you only had one session.0:14:44 Anarie: Part of it was because he was male and I specifically wanted a female therapist. I felt like it would, I would feel safer. So the second therapist we went to was female, and we went to her for several months. And that was interesting. The only conversation about pornography that we had there was, I remember she asked him directly once if he had current use of pornography. He said, "No."0:15:10 Anarie: So then, all of the conversations about how I couldn't get over his past pornography use and how that was interfering and during that time, we were assigned to have sex a certain number of times a week or a month and report back. And when it was an assignment, it happened, so he was willing to engage with me when it was an assignment, when we were reporting back to the therapist. And I think I felt hopeful, so maybe we just needed to get jump started. So that when we were no longer going to that therapist, it again, that essentially disappeared.0:15:48 Daniel: Again, I wanna respect the fact that he's not here, but that sounds a little... For the sake of the listener, he wasn't, am I following you right, he wasn't willing to have more sex with you when you were asking for it but when it was an assignment from the therapist, he would meet that assignment? Is that what you're saying?0:16:07 Anarie: Yes, yes, yeah.0:16:08 Daniel: What do you think was the difference? Do you think he was wanting to meet a commitment with the therapist, or impress the therapist, or why the difference there? Why was he willing to comply as an assignment?0:16:22 Anarie: I think it may have been partly that; I also think there's a rejection factor, that because it was assigned by the therapist, it was clearly mutually greed, that he was on board and I was on board, so there was no risk of him initiating something sexually and having me feel unsafe or not want it, or be hesitant. Does that makes sense?0:16:44 Daniel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it seems to make sense, especially in the context of what we're talking about here. And what about your hurt; what about your trauma in this experience? Was the therapist mindful of your experiences?0:17:00 Anarie: No, I don't think she had much knowledge of betrayal trauma at all and I didn't have much vocabulary for that either. I don't know that I even knew what betrayal trauma was as a category or how it might be impacting me. Once I learned about betrayal trauma, then my response to everything made so much sense, my response over the years.0:17:24 Daniel: And you said how long were you seeing this particular therapist?0:17:29 Anarie: I think it was about four months. And it was right after the birth of... I think it was when my oldest was about a year old, so four years after our marriage, and we had a one-year-old baby at home.0:17:42 Daniel: And this, I think you're saying seemed to provide some sort of hope, because you're having more frequent sex, things seemed to be improving, but emotionally they weren't.0:17:54 Anarie: Yes. And I would often say to my husband; I felt like I was begging, "Please give me another chance. Can we try again? Can we do this more often?" And he would say, "Yes."0:18:07 Daniel: Wait, wait, begging for what? Sex, or just stay married?0:18:10 Anarie: For us to have sex, for us to have sex more often.0:18:13 Daniel: Oh, okay.0:18:15 Anarie: I talked to... One other thing that was going on here is I did talk to my OB-GYN about vaginismus, and got some information about a program for that.0:18:27 Daniel: So you were, you're experiencing painful sex also?0:18:29 Anarie: Yes. And I think largely due to no foreplay and no arousal. So I don't know that... The vaginismus program wasn't super helpful for me, because I think...0:18:47 Daniel: The foreplay was absent.0:18:49 Anarie: Yeah, there was no arousal happening at all, so of course it was painful and not awesome for me.0:18:57 Daniel: But even with the painful sex, you were still craving... Maybe craving isn't the right word, desiring more frequent sex from him.0:19:06 Anarie: Yes. I think a lot because I had been taught to believe that it was my responsibility as a wife to meet my husband's sexual needs and to fulfill my husband sexually. And I had been, I'd heard from parents and from church leaders that men who are happy with their wives don't look at porn. Which is a incredibly harmful message, that I had internalized and was accepting as part of truth. So I think part of it too was I knew that pornography had been an issue for him, and so one of my ways of helping him with that was gonna be to have sex with him, and then it wasn't working.0:19:49 Daniel: That's powerful.0:19:50 Anarie: I don't know if that makes sense, but that's...0:19:52 Daniel: It actually... You read... Yeah, well, I was about to ask that question, about how much of this was a preventative measure? You felt it was your responsibility as the wife in this eternal marriage to protect and provide a source for his outlet, to prevent him from pornography?0:20:12 Anarie: Yes.0:20:13 Daniel: You're desiring more sex, but there was also a strong element there of, "Okay, if I'm desirable enough to him he won't venture into this icky place," right?0:20:24 Anarie: Yeah, I felt like it was part of my responsibility as a good wife to have a good sexual relationship. I also think, my parents had also told me that sex is a beautiful thing. And once you're married, it's a beautiful part of life. So I do feel like I had a lot of positive affirmation for sex as well.0:20:42 Daniel: But you're like, "Where's the beauty?" [chuckle]0:20:45 Anarie: Yes, yeah. But I felt like I wanted that. And I wanted to make it happen, and I wasn't just gonna settle for like, "Oh, I guess sex is stupid and painful, and so good riddance." I wasn't content to just write it off as, "Okay, well, I guess we won't do this."0:21:03 Daniel: There are quite a few spouses out there that are in similar positions as you and, I don't have any statistics at all, but at least with my anecdotal experience and things that I've read, it seems like a lot of wives will go to a place of... They will actually stop having sex. But you were trying to make this beautiful. You were trying to achieve this thing that your parents were saying is good.0:21:34 Anarie: Yes.0:21:34 Daniel: And so that was amazing. That's, you weren't giving up on this hope that it could be something wonderful. So when did things, so to speak, hit the fan? When did you... Did he finally come out and say, "You know what, it's not you, it's been the pornography." What happened there, how did that occur?0:21:55 Anarie: Okay, so it was when my... Let's see, my five-year-old was a year old. Yeah, so our second child was a year old, and by that point, I felt like I had read all the books and talked to my doctor. Essentially, I felt like I had done everything to fix myself and to educate myself. I kinda felt like I'd hit a limit on what I could do on my end. And so I...0:22:32 Daniel: This was what, about five, six years in your marriage?0:22:35 Anarie: So this was about four years ago. So yeah, so it's seven years...0:22:40 Daniel: Seven years into the marriage.0:22:41 Anarie: Seven years into our marriage.0:22:42 Daniel: Wow, so this is...0:22:42 Anarie: So, yeah...0:22:43 Daniel: Wow, okay, good.0:22:46 Anarie: So I got to the point where I basically told him, "I am done with our marriage. I'm not willing to live in a marriage like this. It's not okay with me." By then, also, I had seen a lot more, I'd gotten a lot smarter about pornography usage. So I think a lot of my denial, believing that he was not actually engaging, had been broken down, because I actually started believing a lot of the studies, a lot of the information that was saying that pornography is an ongoing problem, that you don't just turn it off, like he was claiming he'd done. So basically I said, "I've done everything I can. Either you start talking and you start doing something, or I'm out of this marriage. I'm done."0:23:42 Anarie: And I really was to the point where I was willing to get divorced over this. That I didn't want to live in a emotionally disconnected sexless marriage. We were great. We've always been great business partners, good at coordinating logistical things. So the other aspects of what I believe should be part of marriage were completely non-existent. So I believe it was at that point when he realized that I was dead serious that... So by continuing to lie and hide his addiction, he was going to lose the marriage that he decided to start disclosing.0:24:18 Daniel: And can I ask you a personal question here? Is...0:24:22 Anarie: Yeah.0:24:23 Daniel: Were you at any time in that seven years trying to find clues, or go through his internet history or browser, and see if... Were you checking it?0:24:37 Anarie: No.0:24:37 Daniel: Wow, I'm impressed.0:24:39 Anarie: No, I didn't, I didn't play detective like that.0:24:42 Daniel: No, and forgive me, I'm not suggesting you should have, or anybody else should have. I'm just curious to what extent you were... You had a gut feeling, things weren't adding up, and you wanted to believe him, but there was something just off and...0:24:58 Anarie: Well, I am sort of amazed that I... Looking back, there was evidence. I did actually see some things that I should have realized were linked to current pornography usage. But I didn't. One other thing here that I wanna mention is that, about when we were going to that female therapist, you know, a few years into our marriage.0:25:21 Daniel: Right.0:25:23 Anarie: One of the things that came up was that he had never gone and talked to the Bishop after that initial disclosure nine months into our marriage. So I expressed that maybe if he went and talked to the Bishop to resolve that old issue with pornography nine months into our marriage, then I would be able to relax about it and trust him. So he went to our Bishop. And, I was not there so I don't know exactly what was said, but basically he disclosed that he'd viewed pornography within the first year of our marriage, and that it had been really devastating to me. So he told the Bishop some story, and about three weeks later, he was called as elders quorum president in our ward. Which I took to be a sign from God that he was clear.0:26:15 Daniel: Oh.0:26:16 Anarie: That the pornography issue was resolved. So I think that that was also part of why I refused to acknowledge that it was still actively happening all the time.0:26:28 Daniel: So you gave him this... Gosh, it almost sounds like an ultimatum. You were saying, "I'm done here. You gotta bring it forward," seven years into the marriage, what was his response?0:26:42 Anarie: He started disclosing some things. It was a staggering disclosure. He started admitting that he had... At first he just said that he had masturbated. So he'd been actively masturbating. And, which was upsetting to me but also relieving, "Oh, so that's where your sexual... You are a sexual person. That's where your sexual energy is going." And he said it at first that it was like old... He was using old mental images from his prior pornography use and stuff. So over the course of two or three weeks, he started disclosing more that, "Okay, there had been pornography use, but not in the last year."0:27:29 Anarie: Now that I know more about addiction or sexual addiction and how these disclosures generally happen, it really did fit the framework a lot, that he would disclose a little bit and see how I reacted, and then disclose a little bit more, or based on how I responded or what his shame was. And it was about three weeks after he initially started disclosing that he went to our current bishop. It was his initiation. He went to our current bishop and talked to his parents. And then, I talked to my parents and got in touch with a Lifestar therapist. And we were able to pretty quickly get into a sexual addiction recovery program.0:28:13 Daniel: So, now that you hear what's going on, you're able to get the right resources in there, at least different resources. So what was your experience? Was that... I asked these questions... I know you mentioned at the beginning you're divorced now, what was that experience like for you? Was it helpful?0:28:30 Anarie: It was very helpful, yes. I think we both felt a lot of relief that we had a problem that was identified, and that we could seek treatment for. So, there was a clear path for us to get on now. Whereas before it was like, "Something's wrong in our marriage, what's wrong? What's wrong? How do we fix this?" At least what was going on on my end. And with the pornography sexual addiction model, that gave, "Oh, there's a clear problem, there's a name for it, there's a name for what I'm experiencing, there's a treatment plan, there are other people that are experiencing this." So I feel like it immediately brought a sense of release and hope and safety that we would be able to figure this out.0:29:23 Daniel: For those who aren't familiar with Lifestar out in Utah, I think they're actually in a couple of different other states now but, for those who aren't familiar with addiction treatment, behavior treatment, what was that like? So you're saying now they're actually focusing on the pornography, and they're providing a treatment plan. Help the audience understand what does that mean? What does that look like?0:29:49 Anarie: Okay. So, the first part of Lifestar is called, Phase One, and it's a six-week education phase that couples attend together. If they want to. Sometimes individuals come 'cause their spouse won't come. But generally it's attended by couples, it's six weeks and basically it's kind of... I said educational 'cause the therapist presents information, and we had workbooks to do learning about addiction, learning about shame, some basic family of origin things. A little bit about drama triangle, attachment principles, and, during those we would sometimes break into smaller groups and share some answers from our workbooks. But for the most part, it was not a group therapy kind of experience.0:30:41 Anarie: Then after that six week, Phase One, then Phase Two starts, and that's when each person goes to their group therapy. So it's divided based on gender. So I had my group, and he had his group, and that was a group therapy, a weekly group therapy session. And we had additional workbooks and assignments that we would each work through in our individual groups; and their groups were led by a therapist. The Lifestar program is administered by different therapists, so it's like a franchise type of thing. And, the program that we did it in, the therapist really believes in not setting strict time parameters.0:31:29 Anarie: So, we were actually... Compared to some others where it's like phase two is six months and then you moved to the next phase. It was much more based on readiness and reaching a certain emotional place. So, compared to some other Lifestar group, I was in Lifestar for a total of three years before I completed it.0:31:50 Daniel: Is that...0:31:51 Anarie: And a lot of people do the Lifestar program in 18 months.0:31:54 Daniel: Yeah, you answered my question.0:31:54 Anarie: So I just wanna throw that out there, that's my experience, it's a little different from other Lifestar experiences. After about a year of... Or maybe 10 months of Phase Two, I graduated to Phase Three. And the reason for the different phases is just because it keeps people in the group that are in a similar stage of recovery, 'cause early recovery and fresh raw trauma looks and feels and sounds different than a little further down the recovery road. So, moving from Phase Two to Phase Three, it was more about...0:32:34 Anarie: There was a little change in focus, much less like raw trauma. And so, that's why there it was divided by phase. And in Phase Three, there were different assignments. One significant thing that's done... And they've changed it a little bit now, but there's a formal disclosure that happens during Phase Two, if both parties are willing, and it's a therapeutic disclosure. So the couple meet with the therapist, and it's a organized disclosure where the addict discloses to their spouse all of their behavior, behaviors in the addiction, and the spouse prepares questions in advance to ask.0:33:20 Anarie: So it's a chance to clear the air, start fresh, to ask questions in a safe environment, with a therapist you can hopefully watch for signs of lying or... And for me it was kind of healing because there had been a lot of unhealthy disclosure, it was helpful to have that formal disclosure where I had support, I knew it was coming, I had a therapist, I had friends. So in a way, that was able to heal some of the more traumatic earlier disclosures. So anyway, that was also...[overlapping conversation]0:33:52 Daniel: What a wonderful resource. So during that three years, you're taking it your own pace, working through your own trauma. So this is wonderful, you finally it sounds like now that you have your own cohort, so to speak, or a group of people that you can trust. You're able to now work through your trauma, your hurt, while he's dealing with his struggles. Did you see during that three-year period the relationship improve, or what was the result of attending these different phases?0:34:29 Anarie: Okay, so I do wanna throw in real quick that we also did individual therapy, we each had individual therapy sessions in the same group.0:34:35 Daniel: There at Lifestar, or somewhere separate?0:34:38 Anarie: We did it with the same therapist. So the therapist that led our lifestyle group was also the therapist we went to for our individual sessions, through most of it.0:34:49 Daniel: Excellent. So they understood what you were doing. And that's great. The reason why I point that out is, I think that's actually wonderful. In fact, studies show that if you only do group treatment, you don't have as high success rate. If you combine individual and group treatment, the success rate goes up. And the fact that your therapist was familiar with the program allowed that, I guess synergy, or you don't have to re-explain everything why you're doing what you're doing, or anything like that.0:35:22 Anarie: It integrated really well in taking place.0:35:24 Daniel: Exactly.0:35:25 Anarie: It was really helpful. We did have some couple sessions often on during that time mostly after disclosure and we did the couple sessions as well with the same therapist. When I was in phase three so in the third year of recovery I did go to an outside therapist for a period of time and that was really, really helpful for me. And looking back, I would say that I wish that we would have done some couples therapy with another therapist as well. I think because all of our treatment was coming from the same therapist there was some more... There were just some issues that came up with that but I think there might have been more safety if we had had some other therapist as well.0:36:08 Daniel: Would you point that out if you feel comfortable in doing that. I think that's actually a really important fact that people don't realize. There's a couple of elements here, and I'll share with you my thoughts, and then tell me what it was for you. I personally I'm very comfortable in doing individual and couples with the same people, there are limitations and there are exceptions there and that's usually discovered in the intake processes, is what we call it, and if I feel like it will be a benefit to both the individual and as a couple.0:36:43 Daniel: But there are cases where it's even if I'm comfortable with it, it's not a wise move or it's not a good way to support the couple because of the dynamics or whatever it is there and so a lot of clients will sometimes seek that from a therapist and there comes the other issues if a therapist is confident to navigate and to be able to separate the individual versus the couple experience there and sometimes bringing them together and so the individual seeking that kind of treatment both the individual and couples therapy, need to be aware of that in the risks and the benefits from that. What was your personal experience with that?0:37:27 Anarie: So, I feel that there were some very real benefit, because that therapist was aware, very aware of where each of us was individually. I think that that aided him in a lot of our sessions to... I don't know, I think he was aware of things that we didn't have to talk about 'cause he already knew but I think the biggest reason that I would say I wish we would have gone to someone else with kind of a safety thing.0:38:00 Anarie: So there were times that I felt like our therapist was on my husband's side, and there were times when my husband felt like the therapist was on my side. Whether or not that was accurate, I do think that... And maybe that would have happened with any therapist, but that came up. My perspective from me right now, and my therapist has acknowledged this, is that there was some manipulation, my husband manipulated the therapist. And that was part of why, when I went to an outside therapist, that was really helpful and empowering for me, because that other therapist had not been manipulated by my husband. So, I don't know.0:38:51 Daniel: That's... Yeah.0:38:54 Anarie: Because the therapists that we shared was so in it for multiple years and so he started giving blind spots and there are some things that he didn't see at the time that happens with any therapist.0:39:09 Daniel: Yeah, I think this is a very valid point, one that's kinda hard to communicate in a brief interview like this. And there's a lot of caveats here, I understand very well what you're talking about. I've even had to be very careful with working with couples that I'd known for a long time, or have been... Or I'm following up with, and knowing when and how to ask the right questions. It's very difficult when you have built that relationship, and you're not necessarily looking for all the signs of manipulation. And I'm gonna be cautious here. I'm tempted to say a good therapist can see those signs, but that means we would have to be perfect too.0:39:51 Anarie: Right. Yeah.0:39:52 Daniel: It's a very difficult experience.0:39:54 Anarie: Yeah. Well, and I think my main message to any of the listeners would be, I know it's really scary to get in with an initial therapist. At least it was for me. For me it was really scary to get into therapy, to build a relationship with a therapist, to be vulnerable about these things. So it was really scary to go find another therapist, another person, especially because I'd had some bad experiences...0:40:18 Daniel: Exactly.0:40:18 Anarie: With therapists before. I had some therapist trauma. But if you're feeling like you want another therapist, you want another perspective, a good therapist is not gonna be threatened by you wanting to go talk to somebody else for a period of time.0:40:31 Daniel: Thank you for saying that. Absolutely.0:40:34 Anarie: And you can get the support that you need to go talk to another therapist, or to go as a couple and try talking to another therapist.0:40:43 Daniel: I think you've brought up...0:40:44 Anarie: That you don't have to be still fiercely loyal to one therapist.0:40:50 Daniel: Absolutely, and I think that's a good way to approach it. First of all, trust your gut. You've had, whether there was actual manipulation going on or not, whether the therapist was siding with you or not, your experience is real and valid in that moment. There's a lot going on there's trauma, there's hurt, there's confusion. Trust your gut. First of all, trust your gut. And it is scary trying to get, especially if you've had bad experiences like you did with therapists, pose that question, "Do you mind if I look for another therapist for this?"0:41:25 Daniel: And their response I think will be a great indicator of maybe their motivation, or whether or not you should go get another therapist. If they get kind of awkward or embarrassed, or question, "Why would you do that?" Or if they even kind of stonewall in a way, "Well, we have all this history. How are you gonna communicate that history, and how will they follow our treatment plan?" That's a good indicator that you probably should go look a good therapist, like you said, will be totally supportive. Absolutely, go for it. This is your experience, do what you feel is important.0:42:07 Anarie: And I think sometimes, going to another therapist, I know this is sort of a tangent, but it could be motivated by wanting to run away from your current therapist. Maybe they're wanting you to look at some things you don't want to. So that could also be a factor but.0:42:22 Daniel: That is true. That's why it's hard. I think it's important to, kind of a tangent, but kind of not. This is all part of that experience in realizing what's happening here, especially when you have a partner who's manipulating you. Especially if there's been manipulation in the relationship, that therapist should be joining with you and building that trust, right?0:42:43 Anarie: Yeah. Yeah.0:42:46 Daniel: Yes there is a potential that you're running away, but you know what, you get to. You're having this experience and you need to have somebody who can trust you in this experience. And I've had people come back and say, "You know what? I was running away, and I realized that." And I'm putting it into my own words, but eventually he came out and says, "Thank you for letting me do that. I wouldn't have learned this if you prevented me or discouraged me from doing that."0:43:19 Anarie: Yeah.0:43:19 Daniel: And so, you're absolutely right. People are gonna run away when they don't like hearing what they're hearing but part of the experience is supporting that person in that experience, 'cause that's really what you're asking your husband to do, is, "This is scary. You should have been upfront with me from the beginning, regardless of my response. It's scary, I get it, this is scary for me, too. I need you to be open with me just like I should be open with you." And so, great, great. I think that was an important tangent. If we wanna call it a tangent. So...0:43:51 Anarie: One other thing I wanna...0:43:52 Daniel: Go for it.0:43:52 Anarie: Real quick, another part of my recovery over the last four years has been a 12 step program. The one that I have found most supportive was at a Lifeline group. So I did go to some of the LDS church's ARP program, and did not find them to be as supportive as I did the 12 step groups that are done through S.A Lifeline. [0:44:23] ____.0:44:24 Daniel: Oh, no, I think that's important. And if you could boil it down to one or two things. Why was it not as supportive...0:44:32 Anarie: Okay, so I wanna say at first ARP was wonderful, right at first, I'm super grateful that there was a place to go immediately, and that there was a place within a gospel context and within a gospel framework. So I did attend ARP continuously for about six months, and I was grateful for it. It met a need at the time. The biggest thing that I felt was not supportive about ARP, was actually the way that it was structured, that it was, it is missionaries that lead the ARP group, and a lot of them are not sufficiently educated on the topic on what they're dealing with.0:45:10 Daniel: Yeah.0:45:10 Anarie: And a lot of them spent a lot of time sharing. The missionaries would spend time sharing and teaching and lecturing things that were not actually helpful, were inadvertently shaming, and created a lack of safety. Another thing that I saw happen in the ARP group, in recovery there's a real need to give permission for emotion, and for letting your experience be what it is, and for having that experience be validated. And within the context of ARP, often it felt like there were certain emotions that were okay to have, and there certain emotions that were not okay.0:45:53 Anarie: Or that... And boundaries are important in any group, but I felt like there was not adequate space in ARP for anger. I felt like there was a real jump to forgiveness and share positive things and share faith things, faith-promoting things. And there's a place for that, but when you're down on the ground in, especially the immediate aftermath of trauma, there's so much anger and there's so much hurt. And there's, it rocks you spiritually.0:46:25 Anarie: I've gone through times where I don't even believe in God. I feel like, I know my betrayal that I experienced, it ran deep, a lot of it impacted my relationship with God. So there were times when I felt like I couldn't believe in God the way that that group was wanting me to believe in God. So for me it kind of increased the shame.0:46:47 Daniel: That is so...0:46:48 Anarie: Some of my shame experience there. Compared to the S.A Lifeline, where it's more general language, you talk about a higher power. And there I felt so much permission in that group to be wherever I was at, without feeling like I needed to show only the nicer part, or to be immediately jumping to the right way of saying things. If that makes sense?0:47:10 Daniel: I really appreciate you sharing that, about ARP. I think it's a great resource that is offered. I also agree that it's not for everyone, and I will say it's not for most people. I'm gonna say that very carefully for the very reason you've just mentioned. Untrained volunteers who are doing their best but not aware of how a lack of safety is created by reverting to forgiveness versus allowing that anger to be present and understanding how that can be healing in a group of people with a common experience.0:47:55 Anarie: Yeah.0:47:56 Daniel: Thank you so much. I don't wanna come across as criticizing ARP, I think it's a resource, but I think it's just that, a resource.0:48:06 Anarie: Yes, and I was incredibly grateful that it was there for me at the time, and by going there and talking to some of the people in the group, that's how I learned about some of these other resources as well. And I think that the experience in an ARP group it can be heavily dependent on who the missionaries are, and who else is there in the group.0:48:27 Daniel: Absolutely. So let's come... Thank you, I think that was very important. Let's come back around to... You have so much good information, I love it, I absolutely love it, but I'm trying to remember if we actually answered the question. In that three years of going to Lifestar, and these other various treatments, did we see progress in the relationship? What was a result of that?0:48:51 Anarie: Okay, so in terms of our relationship, we did not really, we were not very successful at connecting emotionally, through the three years. At different times we did. And I'm not entirely sure why. I felt like I made lots of individual progress, lots of individual healing and growth. And relationships with family, I saw relationships with my family members and with my friends, radically transforming and changing.0:49:38 Anarie: Within my marriage though, and my relationship with my husband, I was not seeing and experiencing much fundamental change. We were not connecting sexually, we were not connecting emotionally, really, through that process. We were supportive of each other in our individual journeys, but sort of in the same old like logistical business partner-y kind of way that it had been before.0:50:15 Daniel: So you don't want... You don't want a eternal business relationship, you want an eternal marriage.0:50:22 Anarie: Right.0:50:22 Daniel: So...0:50:23 Anarie: And I was... He might say The reason we didn't have a sexual relationship was because of my boundaries, and I would say, "Well my boundaries were where they were because there was still no emotional safety." I wasn't feeling... I didn't have trust restored, in like, I believe his disclosure was honest. I think I do.0:50:54 Daniel: You mean the disclosure in Phase One, or Phase Two?0:50:57 Anarie: The formal disclosure.0:51:00 Daniel: Okay.0:51:00 Anarie: Yeah, and I appreciated him sharing that. And immediately after there was some connection. He supposedly was able to achieve sobriety really early in the program. So a lot of times during the process of Lifestar, there's opportunity to work on conversation about experiences of pornography and slips, and disclosing that and working through that. And because he was so immediately sober, we didn't have much of that. So, I don't know.0:51:34 Daniel: So Tell me a little bit more about that. I think that's important for the audience to hear, now quite a few episodes are available with my podcast. What is sobriety when we talk about sobriety? And it may sound like a stupid question, and you may be familiar with the way I've tried to define it, and explain what is pornography. So how did they measure that for the sake of the listener Sometimes the definition around pornography could be anything that could potentially lead to something more severe, for example, maybe looking at in a lingerie or Instagram or something like that. So how was... Did Lifestar create some sort of definition, or was this an agreed-upon sobriety? How did that get decided and navigated?0:52:25 Anarie: So, for us in Lifestar there, I think there was a certain expectation in the group of what sobriety is, which is not actively seeking out pornographic images or sexual stimulation, things that with... Because with the addiction model the addicts are turning to that as a way to medicate their feelings, and so it was a... They weren't sober if they actively went after something that would give them their sexual hits. So if they were searching for pornographic images, or...0:53:07 Daniel: Of any kind?0:53:08 Anarie: Of any kind. Or... I believe a lot of people in my husband's group, and I think in 12 steps as well, sort of had a 10-second fantasy rule, that if they engaged in fantasy for more than 10 seconds then that was considered a slip.0:53:31 Daniel: Okay.0:53:33 Anarie: Or they needed to share that with their stuff.0:53:36 Daniel: That's a pretty short, short window in reality.0:53:40 Anarie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.0:53:40 Daniel: But I actually like that concept because it's actually encouraging self-awareness. You're not penalized or you're not viewed, whether by your group yourself or whomever, as back to zero again because, oh, my goodness, my mind went into an automatic thought process, and now I have to... It seems impossible, but that self-awareness or that time allows you to become more, "Oh, my goodness, that's what's happening. Okay, I still have time to recover." And not have to count that as, "Oh, excellent, great." So he was basing sobriety, supposedly off of that.0:54:22 Anarie: Masturbation as well. No masturbation, no self-stimulation.0:54:26 Daniel: Got it.0:54:28 Anarie: But really, so much of it was about the lying. So no... And with my experience with my friends on the betrayal side of it, so much of it was about the lying and the hiding. So yes, it would hurt if there was a slip, but it in a way, it was almost healing to have those slips shared, 'cause then we were being let into that world, and we were a part of it.0:54:58 Daniel: So this is what's... What's really interesting to me, and not a criticism, 'cause I... Well, at least I like to think I understand the human behavior side of it, but now you've gotten at least, you're past phase one, into phase two, the disclosure has been made, you've had a ton of psychoeducation about what these patterns are like, and now creating this environment of trust where he can disclose to you. And you're actually finding healing from it. It feels, "Oh my goodness. You're open with me." Why would he hold that back? If you've made this success... Again, I know I'm asking you to kinda interpret from his experience.0:55:39 Anarie: Yeah, I'm not sure.0:55:41 Daniel: Okay.0:55:41 Anarie: I have wondered if shame... Just using the sexual addiction model, as like these behaviors are bad, coming from that background of these are bad and shameful, by disclosing, it's, I'm showing you again that I'm shameful.0:56:03 Daniel: For those who keep hearing the phrase, "sex addiction model", just to provide a little bit more clarity here, there are different theoretical approaches to treating sexual behavior. And one of them is what is being referred to here as this sex addiction model, which is places like Lifestar and other organizations, believe in treating this behavior. And you're bringing up an interesting point here, is even though the sex addiction model was very enlightening to you, it helped you as an individual. You made a comment about how it might have been reinforcing the shame. Is that what I heard?0:56:44 Anarie: Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure if it was ideal scenario for him.0:56:51 Daniel: Can you say more about that?0:56:55 Anarie: Just because I feel like all through the recovery there was too much fear around it. Even if it was trying to be normalized, and other people struggle with this, I still feel like there was not an acknowledgement of how normal pornography use is. And I feel like there was still a lot of fear around it, and a lot of labeling of it as being bad and wrong, and...0:57:37 Daniel: So it...0:57:37 Anarie: It itself was still demonized a lot. Even if there was work done to navigate shame, like education about what role it's serving, and choosing more appropriate ways to meet some of those needs, it was still coming from this premise of, the pornography and the masturbation in and of itself is bad and wrong and... Yeah.0:58:11 Daniel: Yeah, well that makes sense. So, what I think I'm hearing here is, even though you've had this psycho-education, you're having this great support network, you're getting the resources you need for both of you and your relationship, there's a possibility that same treatment method was also reinforcing more fear. And so, even though he knew he could reveal to you, and that could be an opportunity for success and recovery, acknowledging that you slipped up again, you are now taking on all these...0:58:46 Anarie: Yeah, it still made him look like the bad guy.0:58:48 Daniel: Very much so. Again, not minimizing the seriousness of it, or giving him an excuse here, but the reality is, is when we demonize the use we then become and identify with that demon, so to speak. Right?0:59:05 Anarie: Yeah.0:59:05 Daniel: And so being able to acknowledge that even though you know you've done it, wow, that could really feed into, not only his fear, but your fear. What does it mean? You did this again. Who are you? Is that what I'm hearing?0:59:18 Anarie: Yeah, yeah. There in... I quite often heard it like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. There's the addict self and the true self. And I think there's some truth to that, and I also think it's problematic and was harmful, for both of us, to turn it into a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde type of scenario. Because I believe it's more integrated.0:59:45 Daniel: This is an experience that I hear so many have, where they finally get the... I thought it was beautiful the way you described it, is they provided resources and information that resonated with you perfectly, things made sense. And your personal journey, you felt like you were getting the right support, the right help, he was being held responsible in the right way to divulge his information and his struggles. While you have this great resource, you're also seeing how it was problematic. What is...1:00:22 Anarie: Yeah, look... Oh sorry, go ahead.1:00:24 Daniel: No, absolutely, go ahead.1:00:26 Anarie: I was just gonna say, looking back there, we're dealing with a sexual issue, pornography, his masturbation, sexual addiction, but there was not much information given in our program about healthy sexuality...1:00:42 Daniel: Bingo.1:00:42 Anarie: About normal sexual development. And I know normal's a relative term, but human sexual development, there was not much information about that. Even with disclosure, hearing about a lot of the forms of acting out that he used, I still, during my time in recovery, there was so much fear that there was never really any normalization of some of those kinds of behaviors. So I would hear that he'd done this type of pornography that, to me, was extra scary and extra bad. And there was never any space to put that in a less terrifying way.1:01:30 Daniel: I think that's huge, and I think that's a thing that's missed in all treatment. Well, not all treatment, but a majority of treatment. Even in those clinics that are, like Lifestar, who are phenomenal at what they do, we focus on what not to do, right? But we don't actually explore and understand from a expert point of view, of what healthy sexual behavior looks like. We have these assumptions, but those assumptions aren't necessarily true, or need further expanding on.1:02:06 Daniel: But I also, what you said there was, the type of pornography, and there's huge misunderstandings around this. Pop-psychology, a lot of the predominant resources out there teach this idea that it's escalative behavior, and that is... There's very, very little support for that, in that somebody who's looking up maybe bondage type of pornography, or something very serious, or is perceived as something more serious than another, then that creates this whole new treatment model or severity around the person. Or there's something more sickening about the person, which is, again, problematic and not supported in treatment or in science. But you started to notice that.1:02:54 Anarie: Yeah. I feel like I needed to have my experience validated, so I was coming at it from a place of a lot of fear.1:03:03 Daniel: Of course.1:03:03 Anarie: In fact, it was really scary for me to listen to his disclosure. I had never watched a rated R movie myself at that time, and so to learn about these sexual behaviors and these kinds of pornography, that was a really scary thing for me, to have to learn about those things. And it was helpful for me to have others validate how scary and how much fear there was in that. At the same time, I feel like there could have been... I could have been validated in my fearful approach to it, and a more balanced view could have also been presented a little bit sooner, so my narrative could have been validated and some reframes could have been offered more.1:03:51 Daniel: So what would you recommend to somebody who's in your position, situation rather, and they're struggling with a similar behavior, their spouse is hiding, and you're seeking treatment? How would you... I guess what I'm asking is, What would you do different?1:04:11 Anarie: Or what would I do the same? What would I...1:04:13 Daniel: Oh yeah, fair, fair.1:04:14 Anarie: Recommend for someone in that place?1:04:16 Daniel: Yes.1:04:17 Anarie: For me, getting support from others and moving out of isolation, is so so scary. So wherever you can start to get that support from. For me, looking back, I have felt some like, "Oh, maybe we should have gone to a different program. Maybe if we would have found a better therapist." Or, "I should have not gone to ARP first, I should have... " It's really easy to get into some of that. But any support, any... Reach out to the people around you, look for the best resources that applaud any steps out of isolation, any effort to express your experience and get support. And permission to experience what you're experiencing, to feel what you're feeling.1:05:09 Anarie: However you're coming at it from, whatever you feel about it, those things are valid, and there's a place for it, and you don't need to feel ashamed for the way that you're experiencing it. So you... I heard a lot of messages about how betrayed spouses need to respond right to disclosure. So, if you freak out, they're not gonna share with you in the future. But... And there's truth to that. At the same time, when you're in fresh trauma it makes sense that you freak out and that you can't hold space for yourself the way that you might be able to further down the road. So, I guess just permission to be where you're at when you're there.1:05:57 Daniel: I really appreciate that insight right there. I will often... If we discover that disclosure has to be made, I can't tell you how valuable it is to, depending on which partner it is, in this case let's say the husband, pulling them aside, meeting with them individually and coaching them through this. "Look, it's gonna be rough. You don't try to manage your wife's feelings and emotions at all. Let her experience it. This is about revealing, building trust, and she gets to have her emotions just like you do. In this experience, allow her to be. In fact, encourage it." But that's, I think... Oh, that's a big one. Thank you for bringing that up.1:06:47 Anarie: And that is something I felt Lifestar did a really good job, of giving space for the betrayed partner to have their experience, for their trauma to be validated. And to expect that the addicted spouse needed to find support elsewhere, and that the betrayed person can't... You want to come together as a couple to address the issue together, but for a time maybe you can't do that. You need outside support, outside people. So...1:07:23 Daniel: Absolutely, so you now are divorced. It's been how long since the separation?1:07:27 Anarie: Four months since it was finalized, a year since we separated.1:07:29 Daniel: Four months. Alright. And do you feel like you're in a better place now?1:07:34 Anarie: I do, yeah.1:07:37 Daniel: Well, Anarie...1:07:39 Anarie: And I'm hopeful that he is as well, and that he will be.1:07:46 Daniel: Well, it sounds like you're making some important decisions to move forward, and that healing is occurring. And I can't tell you how much I personally appreciate you coming on here and sharing your information with everyone else. I can't tell you...1:08:00 Anarie: Well, I hope that it can be helpful. There was so much... Shame thrives in believing that you're the only one. And for so long I believed that I was the only one, or one of only a few. And particularly the sexless nature of my marriage didn't match a lot of what I heard about other...1:08:21 Daniel: No.1:08:22 Anarie: Addicted people. And I think that was part of what was so distressing too, it seemed to not fit. And since recovery I've found, no there are others who are experiencing this dynamic of being married to someone who's acting out sexually while having a sexless marriage and sexless relationship. And so, for a long time I was even nervous to tell other people in my recovery circle about what kind of sexless marriage I'd had because often I was in a minority. So, for that reason I wanna share my story because I know now that I'm not the only person experiencing that kind of dynamic.1:09:03 Daniel: It's so much more common then people realize.1:09:04 Anarie: And when you... When you feel like it's just you, when you feel shame for your shameful experience, it's just so much more painful. So I know now that I'm not the only one experiencing that, so I wanna share that so that others can know as well, that this is part of the experience too.1:09:24 Daniel: I could assure you, the people listening right now are comforted by that comment. You did mention one other thing, before we go. I can't remember if we were personally talking about it offline or if it was at the beginning. You said one of the concerns, or... And maybe you have addressed it in a round about way. But one of the concerns you had about this treatment process, just the whole process I guess, was, yes, you got solutions, you got treatment plans for the porn and sexual behaviors, but some of the underlining issues weren't addressed.1:10:02 Anarie: Yes.1:10:02 Daniel: Do you mind talking about that for a second?1:10:04 Anarie: Yeah. So, in terms of our relationship and what was actually going on in our relationship, I feel like the pornography was a symptom of other things that were going on. So in spending a couple of years honing in specifically on pornography, and the pornography use, and regulating and learning about that, it took a couple of years before we started actually looking at more of our relationship dynamics, that were actually more of our problem. And it's linked, so it's not like... Okay.1:10:50 Anarie: But in a way I feel like the focus on the pornography use was able to feed... We almost... It started to become a part of some of our underlying issues. We almost used it in old unhealthy ways. So, in terms of what the underlying issue was, there was some control and power manipulation, lying, unhealthy shame management, enmeshment, differentiation issues, sexual shame, repressed sexuality. Some of those things... We spent so much time on the regulating sobriety and porn behaviors that by the time we started actually getting to the real meat of stuff, it took a couple of years.1:11:48 Daniel: Which is absolutely a case I see quite frequently here. We may resolve the pornography, the addictive behaviors, but when that's gone what happens is exactly what you described. You're going to this, you're healing, but where's the connection? The absence of porn and undesired sexual behaviors does not create connection.1:12:16 Anarie: Yes, yes, yes. [chuckle]1:12:18 Daniel: Right?1:12:19 Anarie: Yeah. Yep.1:12:19 Daniel: And so, this is an element that is always... Again, I'm using always. Not always the case. Is too often overlooked, because we do, we make the symptom, which is the pornography, the problem. And we think if we get rid of the problem, which is actually just the symptom... There's clearly something else going on here with the constant manipulation. And unfortunately, the way... The addiction model, or pop psychology, whatever we wanna refer to it or blame it on, tells us that manipulation is a result from the escalating behavior. Well, we're finding that it's actually an underlying issue that's unresolved and not treated. And then the pornography, in a sense, becomes yet another form of manipulation to cover that real problem. It's this benign tumor that just is hidden somewhere we can't find it. Right?1:13:17 Anarie: Yes. And pornography addiction recovery can, in a sense, end up being used as a tool of manipulation.1:13:25 Daniel: Yes.1:13:25 Anarie: And, there was something I was gonna say. I can't remember.1:13:33 Daniel: Now, if it comes back to you feel free to jump in.1:13:36 Anarie: Sorry. [chuckle]1:13:36 Daniel: But I think that you hit... I think one of the biggest takeaways from this is not to neglect the... We focus too often on getting rid of something. I phrase it... You went to treatment at the beginning, no one talked about pornography, and then you went to Lifestar where pornography was finally talked about, but yet connection wasn't addressed. If there was some way that we can address both the undesired behavior and the desired behavior... And in my practice, I always say, "Let's focus on the desired outcome. What is the desired outcome? Okay, you're using pornography right now, the desired outcome isn't just to stop that.1:14:20 Daniel: The desired outcome is, "I wanna feel closer to you, I wanna feel connection. Okay, even if you saw some pornography today, I still wanna come home and have a meaningful discussion with you, I wanna have meaningful sex, I wanna feel close to you. If that means getting rid of the pornography, great. If it means we need to understand how to communicate better, let's do that too." And it sounds like that was an element that was missed, at least in your experience.1:14:52 Anarie: Yeah, and it was talked about, and I... Connection, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. That's a phrase that I heard a lot in recovery. So there was a lot of talk about connection.1:15:06 Daniel: Yeah, but we're discovering, it sounds like you did too... And forgive me, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth at all. Is the absence of the addiction doesn't re-result in connection.1:15:18 Anarie: Yes, yeah, yeah.1:15:19 Daniel: So we talk about it a lot, but we don't actually, I think, create a treatment plan around that and try to improve it.1:15:27 Anarie: Yeah. And I do wanna say that I am grateful that pornography... Because pornography was labelled as an issue, as a problematic thing, it gave a doorway into some therapy and some information that was incredibly helpful. So I am grateful that there was this issue and there are these programs that help, that were able to catch me and help me get directed into some real therapeutic help.1:16:00 Daniel: Absolutely. Well, you've given us so, so much to think about here. And I know it may sound redundant, but I'm gonna ask again, any final thoughts or things you wanna leave us with?1:16:13 Anarie: I do wanna share just some of the things beyond betrayal trauma that I needed to learn, and that were an important part of my recovery, and my process of learning how to be a healthy individual in a healthier relationship. Because there were definitely

A New Lease on Life at 70 - Who Me? Harriet and Daniel met while working in the financial industry. They’ve been married 20 years. Both in their 70’s now, they clearly state that who they are now is so different than who they were 20 years ago. Harriet shares that she was all business - saying that that is what the banking world is - all business and very little heart. About eight years ago, they came across a particular network marketing company, which they initially took on as a business, with the mindset of serious business people. And over a very short period of time, the experience they were having with the company and the people they were serving opened their hearts. Harriet shares that Daniel isn’t the person he used to be. He would never hug anyone before, and didn’t really smile much. Now he is incredibly happy getting out of bed and seeing what the day brings.  How I came to meet Harriet and Daniel is through this network marketing organization that they are passionate about. When I met Harriet almost two years ago, her eyes sparkled and her whole being vibrated with love and generosity. And she still does today. She is very clear this isn’t who she was in her previous life as a banker. Harriet remarks that she had no idea she had such a capacity for love and connection. Harriet and Daniel weren’t looking for a new lease on life. They weren’t interested in changing their attitudes, or participating in any self-discovery programs. But here they are, thrilled with their lives and going strong. Harriet shares, “I wake up every morning feeling younger than I did the day before. I’m so excited to see what life has in store for me today!" So why am I sharing this story about Harriet and Daniel? It’s not to suggest you quit your job and join a network marking company. I’m sharing this story in support of saying that there are so many people who are happier later in their lives than they ever expected to be. They found themselves. Is that really possible? Are Harriet and Daniel lucky? Are Harriet and Daniel Blessed? Or, did they somehow make choices later in their lives that brought about this possibility of discovery and living into happiness? I believe it’s the later! My belief is that luck and blessedness are available to every one of us. What allows for what we call luck or blessedness to show itself in all the ways it does, is the attitudes that empower luck to be perceived and acknowledged. If I don’t believe luck exists, if I don’t believe blessings rain down on us all the time, then I will never recognize its expression in the world. I hear quite often from clients, “Oh, I believe luck exists, just not for me.” So when good thing happen to them - which is so much more often than they can acknowledge, they are blinded by their belief: “It doesn’t exist for me.” Our Guru within would probably see it differently! A few years ago, when I was on the Mainland, there was a barrage of experiences in which I experienced a sense of blessedness. Little things like traffic lights turning green instantly, getting the perfect parking spot, getting an unexpected super deal on what I was buying, and even seeing a traffic jam on the highway and somehow finding my way through it all effortlessly. This happened a number of times, so I came to the conclusion that, when I went off Island I was blessed!  Well, my curious mind said, “well if I’m blessed when I go off Island, am I not blessed when I am on the Island?” At first the response was, “well I have no evidence that I’m blessed when I’m on the Island, when I’m home.” Then my guru within asked: "Well, it sounds as though you assume you aren’t blessed on the Island. Could that keep you from experiencing the blessings that are present?” Hmmmm! So I decided to practice anticipating the presence of blessings and luck. I chose to see anything out of the ordinary as a blessing, - an eagle in the sky, seeing a friend at the store. I opened myself up to seeing beauty and delight where before I was closed. Even when things didn’t go the way I anticipated, I chose to see this as a blessing - that somehow something great would come about! And inevitably, something good came out of what seemed to be impossibly not good! Harriet and Daniel are blessed and lucky because they chose to be open to the possibility that luck and blessings are always and everywhere. They were open to exploring potential abundance, and found an abundance of love and joy to exist within their hearts. I think that is pretty cool! Leaning into the possibility that joy, fun, and abundance are available for each of us, regardless of our age, allows us to begin to look into our world for what is good, what is joyful, and what is a blessing or a lucky coincidence. A newfound lease on life is then available to you. Who me? Yes You!!! - - - -  For more blogs, books, videos, or if you are interested in coaching or training with Dr. Rosie, check out her website: www.theparadigmshifts.com

What makes a great Flash Briefing? Daniel Hill, creator and host of The Instagram Stories Flash Briefing is our guest. Daniel and Emily Binder, creator and host of Voice Marketing - Daily Beetle Moment Flash Briefing discuss the top five tips for creating a popular Flash Briefing. Why Daniel has the #1 Alexa Skill for search term “Instagram”:“Others are doing similar things [marketing tips for small businesses] on Instagram, but no one was doing it on Alexa.” -Daniel HillLength - 10 seconds, 90 seconds, or 3 minutes? Don’t waste time on your intro and outro. Use markers. (Emily uses Pippa - click here for a $25 Amazon Gift Card when you sign up for a year of audio hosting). Include sonic branding - be consistent.Schedule / cadence - how often to publish your Flash Briefing? Make a commitment. How many days per week? 5 weekdays, or all 7 days? Should you publish on weekends? Whatever you do, be consistent and let listeners know what to expect. Listenership for Flash Briefings diminishes on weekends but you may want to post at least one or two weekend posts for the ones who stay engaged (Daniel). Consider a weekend edition (something short and simple). Survey your listeners: Daniel used a Google Form, created a bit.ly link to it, and announced it on his briefing - and he gave away an Echo to incentivize listeners to take the survey. Batch record - don’t leave this until the night before (Emily). Daniel: Fresh news briefings require recording daily most of the time. Consider recording early after the gym or whenever you feel most energized. Listeners can hear fatigue in your voice.Content: what to talk about? Daniel: It has to be newsworthy. Emily: Don’t be obvious and basic. Don’t make a briefing about something basic. Add value: “What do I know that other people don’t?” And add your take on the news you share. INSERT - HERE IS A SAMPLE OF NEWS AND EMILY’S TWO CENTS: (Why: this demonstrates authority and subject matter expertise).What to name your Flash Briefing: Daniel: Look for a name or word people are talking about. Capitalize on popular search terms because this platform is so uncrowded. Emily: Look at Google Search Trends or Amazon’s list of top product searches. https://twitter.com/emilybinder/status/1117167808851382274. What’s the point of your briefing? Emily: Public speaking should make your audience feel something, remember something, and do something. Look at your briefing as a body of work over time. You need a central theme or idea that is the backbone of all your content. Daniel: Make a Flash Briefing that is niche: example: not just fishing, not just deep sea fishing, but Sustainable Deep Sea Fishing! Show notes hereSubscribe free to this podcast:Apple PodcastsStitcherSpoitfy See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Daniel Beer Interview Joining us today is Daniel Beer. Daniel is the CEO of Daniel Beer Home Selling Team in San Diego California and has been in real estate since 2005. In 2017 his highly leveraged team was the top producing team in Southern California. Daniel shares his story about his business with us, talks about his decision to move his already successful business to EXP Realty and explains why he believes EXP is the most important opportunity that has ever existed in the Real Estate industry.  Learn More about eXp Realty - Click here to watch a quick 7 Minute Intro Video. Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content discussed within this podcast are the opinions of Kevin Cottrell and/or the guests interviewed.  This information is intended as general information only for listeners of the podcast. Listeners should conduct their own due diligence and research before making any business decisions. This podcast is produced completely independently of eXp Realty and is not endorsed, funded or otherwise supported by eXp Realty directly or indirectly.     In this episode Why EXP is the most important opportunity in Real Estate  How easy it is to move to EXP Many mega agents are making the move to EXP Creating revenue and passive income through EXP EXP is currently the fastest growing company in Real Estate The benefits of moving to EXP in these early stages EXP is like buying in to a business without paying for it Want to Learn More about eXp Realty? If you are interested in learning more about eXp, reach out to the person who introduced you to eXp or contact Sean to inquire or ask questions. Contact Daniel via his website www.fastforwardwebinar.com   Noterworthy "It's killing the traditional model and this is the highest value proposition available today to people selling houses." "Me being at EXP has nothing to do with wanting to move away from Keller Williams vs it actually just has to do with me wanting to move towards something that I see as being a phenomenal opportunity"  Daniel Beer   PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION KEVIN: Welcome to the show Daniel. DANIEL: Thanks Man. It's good to be here. KEVIN: Looking forward to the conversation.. The market and the industry are a buzz when you made the move recently but before we jump into all that why don't you give a little bit for those that maybe are listening to this that don't know you personally and know what you do as far as your real estate practice a little bit of your background. DANIEL: Sure. So having been real estate full time since 2005 and this past year 2017, my team was the number one producing team for all of Keller Williams and the Southern California region IGCI. And number two buy units. So we closed 222 houses for 164 million dollars in sales volume. We have what I call a highly leveraged fully built out team everything from operations, listing management, transaction management through company listing, showing agents inside sales and of course our sales agents or sales executives. It's been an incredible journey. And I went through the same Genesis that I think a lot of agents go through. I like most other stumbled into the industry. In 2005 I was 23 years old and my dad was about to sell a house and of course I got licensed because it's unfortunately are too easy to get licensed. And I started selling homes basically just doing friends and family business and that was cool. Up until the market crash.. The market crash happens we all know how devastating that was. All the friends and family business goes away. And I'm left to either make a decision to leave the industry or learn how to build a true business that can predictably systematically create leads in income for my family. So fast forward there were a lot of learning that you know that I went through is some winds some fails and here we are today having a ton of fun and now at EXP man I can't even begin to tell you how energising this has all been. I haven't had as much fun in a long time. KEVIN: And that's great. I like Gene Frederick we're team leaders and in leadership at Keller Williams I was with Aaron Lancaster and Andy Allen in the early 2000s and they had a team and we ran and we were doing about 600 transactions a year and that was the genesis for the whole MREA and so we thought we were having a lot of fun back then but it's nothing like this. So tell me about the process. Obviously well before you decided to move you started to hear about the EXP and you start seeing agents moving. What was the genesis for you making the decision to take a major big business like yours and make a change. DANIEL: Yeah it was an interesting journey. And so for me my personal story goes back to being in Gary Keller's mastermind of killer Williams so I have to say by the way it was a wonderful company. I was very very happy there and me being he has nothing to do with wanting to move away from kW vs it actually just has to do with me wanting to move towards something that I see as being a phenomenal opportunity. So anyway I was at Keller Williams. I was part of Gary Keller's mastermind. And you go back over a year ago. All of a sudden in our group we had a Facebook group. We suddenly started having people asking you know and making comments asking questions about EXP. And you know questions like "EXP just did this in my market" or "what are you guys doing about EXP saying this" or taking this person or "oh my god you hear we lost that one". And I found that to be really interesting because first of all I don't know who the EXP was. I had never heard of it. And of course at the time it was like a 2000 person company. And so I started to asking myself this is where do you think it's curious that the most elite group in the biggest company in the world or at least in North America is talking about some 2000 person company. But I have never heard of. So that's over a year ago and you know going back to say mid 2016. And the interesting thing about that too is that.. that group never talked about Berkshire Hathaway and they never talked about Remax they never talked about Coldwell Banker. They never talked about anybody. Yet they were talking about some little 2000 person company. So that's kind of interesting right. That was my first introduction to it all. I have another group that's a very very high powered mastermind. Everyone's number one or two in their market. There's about 35 or so people in it and that group all of a sudden three of them went to EXP. I'm talking about big heavy hitters. And so I learned the model and Kevin I think this might resonate with you. You know there's an evolution in this whole thing just when you hear about it, there is when you learn the model. So you go back over about a year ago. I understood the model okay call their stock. There's revenue share. There's the fact that you keep selling houses right? We're not being asked to become essential oil sales or anything we're just simply selling houses as stock revenue share. Cool. I got it. That was a year ago. But then there's when you finally kind of see the entire picture come together Kevin and you see the real power of the opportunity to step into the fastest growing brokerage in the country in the very beginning of the first inning. And when you see real productive agents start moving into the business. For me that was Curtis Johnson. Johnson was another guy that I was friends with he's a guy I followed actually been stocking years back before we knew each other. I was trying to learn from him. Now all of a sudden he goes yes. There's just that moment when you say wait a second what is going on. Too many incredible smart strategic business people that I respect are making the same move to the same group that Gary Keller's private mastermind's talking about. That's interesting. And so... you know I'll take a pause here Kevin in case anything to throw in there but when you start seeing that and then start seeing how truly financially incentivize the people at EXP are to help each other and essentially make it true the thing that we all tend to say in all brokerages that we are all for each other we want to share. We want to do this. Not in my market right or not too much. Not my true secret stuff. Well I started finally seeing a model that really incentivize people to open up completely and help one another because everybody financially benefits and the power of that and being able to go from one bucket of income to three right? just simply selling houses getting checks. It's also owning your brokerage and having passive revenue became so compelling that I made the move and I have been having a ton of fun since. KEVIN: Couple of interesting tidbits that you'll know who I'm talking about I'm not going to mention by name because I've got a good friend and he's in St. Louis and he's got a mega mega team like yours Daniel. I mean he was my mastermind in St. Louis when he was just getting started and I had my team and we were the number three team in the market. So I was talking to him about EXP and he said I get it. I know the model. Don't worry about it. Let me tell you this I've been accumulating stock and EXPI for over thirty four months. I've got thirty or forty thousand shares. I can't tell you the number of people. And he's with an NRT company. So guys like that are buying stock and the EXPI. There's a mortgage lender in central Texas. I think he's got close to 50000 shares. The industry is betting that this is the new model. And so some of the stuff that you know I just wanna throw in here because this predates your entry into KW and I agree with you it's a great company for people like Gene Frederick and I and others. We were there in 1999 when Keller Williams was a small little company and I'm going to tie down why you said it's kind of interesting to you to give you some perspective. Gary Keller and the team and the regional directors are all getting ready to launch a ton of market centers. They've got somewhere around 50 700 agents in 1999 and they have to go through the process of fining agents finding investors they have to go the 14 to 18 month process that other people have talked with me about on other episodes mentioned this. It's a slow process right. I could have met you in San Diego. Got you all excited about a market center and then 18 months later we'll be all through the process and opened. So now Brent Gove and I always give the story because it's most enlightening when you listen to his interview you'll hear him say this. He was in San Antonio for the EXP meeting met with Glenn met with Gene met with the team brought some people that were his best Devil's Advocates said poke holes in this model. Tell me why I shouldn't do this. Ten days later he is up and operating as the EXP and basically being powered by the brokerage. So the reason that people like you are seeing these antidotal people dropping in and out and it gets mentioned 12 times at fam reunion is this is Netflix versus Blockbuster. If you're sitting in the private room with Gary Keller's insiders not the people in the company but the guy that he's paid millions of dollars in consulting fees to they're going to tell him this is Netflix vs. blockbuster. You have all this bricks and mortar. You have all these franchise locations. It's a great company but so is Blockbuster and they couldn't pivot they didn't pivot. DANIEL: It becomes very difficult when you wrap up in hundreds and hundreds of franchise agreements. KEVIN: Absolutely. The interesting part about that I wanted to tie that down is there were fifty seven fifty eight hundred agents now eight years later they were at 78000 agents right. They executed extremely well. There were a bunch of us in leadership and I ran some market centers in South Florida. Gene was regional director as well as a team leader and phenomenal model lots of execution. The thing is and this is where Gary and the others realize this if it takes some 14 18 months to open a markets and with 100 agents EXP adding agents at 250 plus per week and you don't need a slide ruler to do the calculus to figure out if we're disproportionately high on producers like you or in the parlance of the franchise system cappers or better they can figure out what the picture looks like in 3 years when the company has 100000 agents. And I want to do two more data points you may not even know this in a one week period somewhere around Baltimore one of the market centers number one through five at one market center in one week they all basically said we're going EXP. So that is how you end up with a small little company being mentioned 12 times at fam reunion. The momentum is crazy. DANIEL: It is an incredible thing and here's how you know I truly believe this will be the first 200000 person company in North America. And the reason why and that it will also get there much faster than what is currently the biggest company is simply because let's imagine that you're an agent somewhere in remote Montana. Okay. And you want to be at Keller Williams and let's rewind right years back is I don't know where the market centers are but let's imagine it's the year 2000. And you want to be a Keller Williams And you're in remote Montana. Well they had to award the franchise fine the space build up the space they need to get X amount of what they called capping agents to be able to finally launch. And then eventually you can join that. That's a long process. If an investor chooses to build a market center in your area. You know that's that could be a one or two year process there. And again if they choose to build a market center in your area well you could be on a remote mountain top somewhere in Vermont right now without an agent within 500 miles of you and you could be speed this afternoon. And that is why this company without the restrictions of brick and mortar and traditional franchising territories and regions. When you remove all that you allow scale to happen at an exponential rate versus what companies not just in real estate but in any industry can traditionally experience. And so when you take all that in when you hear a guy like me that know I've had the privilege of being connected to some of the most incredible producers in the country I have a unique point in that I know what those conversations are. I know there's market centers being quickly unwinded so that people can move to EXP I know that headline making names across the country across every major city are all in motion right now. Right now is an opportunity that I saw to essentially step into Keller Williams in 1990 and in the very beginning the first inning. It it's been around for nine years by the way. But I would still say this is the first inning of a productive agents that will quickly and exponentially grow the awareness and the conversation which is already the loudest conversation in our industry is only being magnified each time one of these large producers in a different region nor a different city moves to EXP and the real aha is that if you can do that and you can have world class uplined support from big influential names and people and you're the first productive agent or among the first if you're in this first wave the first inning of agents that are really selling house it's moving into it. Yes. Well everyone wants to know about it. The conversations will naturally flow to you. What I saw Kevin is an opportunity to essentially own my region. It's like buying a Williams region without ever having to pay for it. And that opportunity was when I could not even I had not pass up. And this happened just like that right?. This is the loudest conversation in our industry. KEVIN: Absolutely. I mean I want to come back to what you just said because for people we've been talking a lot about wins it doesn't matter if you're at Remax or even if you're independent. The analogy of the fact that you can build a business where it's the equivalent of owning a region something that was out of reach for anybody in the franchise systems is the reality. And so if you're Daniel Beer and you're a major producer in your market and you have a couple of choices for additional income this is where I see the next phase of this momentum and rapid growth. You could go expansion right go into multiple markets and there's a lot of the franchise focus on that and certainly we're starting to see a lot of talk about this loud conversation from people looking at the EXP from an expansion standpoint and there's a lot of momentum there but it's that revenue share regional ownership if you will in the building a business around that that we have enough demonstrable examples whether you listen to the episode by Pat Hayes look into the Gene Frederick ston or even Sherry Elliott and Dallas. It's incredible now and I think the market with this loud conversation can no longer go. Well yeah. You know what they don't have anybody that has any real success because now regardless of how you've been introduced to this episode or any of the other episodes and as my guest ask whomever introduced you to EXP to go get you success stories. It doesn't matter if you want to talk to Daniel you want to talk to me Gene Frederick Pat Hays. We're all agent shareholders we're all here to help you. And again I want to get your perspective on this. Isn't that the craziest part of this culture that's not apparent from the outside. Anybody will help anybody because we're all age owners we're all either going to benefit through share or through our ACLI because the stronger the company can become the more our stock is worth in the most simple terms. Like I said the math finally makes sense. It's the first time it's been able to put the numbers and the altruistic or altruistic aspirations finally in alignment with the numbers and the math. It's a beautiful thing. And here's something I was listening to as I might say to myself OK that's helpful and great. So the 160 million dollars of real estate in the last 12 months. Sure. What about me. What I have seen over and over and already has set for us here locally in San Diego just within our first literally the beginning stages of us being at the company is if you're 5 million or 10 million or producer if you're an agent that's been operating with integrity showing up as a professional in your marketplace you are vastly underestimating your influence whether it be at a branch level or a zip code level a neighborhood. A town or county or city or state your region your underestimating your influence and keep something in mind. Again you're stepping into the loudest conversation only is being magnified by every big iconic agent keeps coming into the company which seems to now be happening on a weekly basis. So I'm stepping into the middle of that and your boots on the ground doing deals. Talking to agents talking to a hundred plus agents on a yearly basis. No one's asking you to go become a recruiter. In fact make sure you keep selling houses. Do what you do sell houses. All you needed really did was alter 10 percent of your awareness 10 percent of your script when speaking to an age. Something as simple as closing a deal out with somebody and just simply calling them hey is great doing that. You know what let's do another one soon. Let me know. Let me know if you listening coming up. You know I had the same conversation you're already having. And then just adding. And by the way you mentioned earlier during our transaction you know you'd asked me about EXP. We're actually having an event or there's this wedding or going on or blah blah blah. What I'm trying to say is that someone like me someone like Kevin and a lot of other folks across the country there's a lot of opportunities to it regardless of sponsorship there's a lot of people like us that have already created the system. Or you could just alter 10 percent of your awareness and introduce people into the system so that you can continue to do what you do and sell houses. You're going to go from what I call one bucket to three real estate sales but can we just sell a house and get a check. Transition to now having ownership. Because you actually get ownership simply for doing their jobs and having passive revenue here locally. Kevin like it points out an agent great agent just you know your bread and butter productive long time respected agent. She's not a YouTube star she's not on stage. She's just doing what she does in her local market place for some time. And she has five hundred ish dollars of profit sharing the last 12 months that her previous company her revenue share based on which she's already introduced. It's unnatural attraction and conversations coming to her is already on track for seven thousand dollars this year. And I think that's incredible. I think that's the most incredible thing because it makes seven thousand dollars in passive revenue in San Diego. You need to invest about a hundred and twenty thousand dollars cash to do it in real estate on a rental. So that's power. KEVIN: There are tons of examples and you're going to see them on these podcasts episodes. I mean I always love to tell the story of Sherri Elliott. It's one of the other episodes she was age at number 14 in Dallas and they have over a hundred there now. So when you look at the growth of the company the other thing I want to point with that comment is even if Daniel's point you're in a market where there aren't 800 agents. Here's the deal if you're in a market like San Diego it's coming. Right. Less than two years ago Dallas had 14 agents they have 800. Austin's over 315. I'm just picking a couple of markets. Daniel have every confidence that you'll be at a huge number in the southern California San Diego market and it will be but here's the point nobody in real estate does a good job of saving like you can with an opportunity like EXP. I want to talk about her two numbers that she talks about publicly. One is the equity she's been hurt less than two years she participates and in the GCI program where she dedicates 5% right? And if you're at a franchise and you pay that royalty. Think of it as the same thing off the top she has. And when she told Gene this recently, even hundred thousand dollars in her stock account in EXP stock and less than two years. So I challenge anybody listen to this. If you're an independent you're in the franchise model and where you are you're never going to see something like that. We were telling the story and one of the lunch and learn actually explain meetings and one of the three agents from Austin was in there and she said well I don't know nearly as much business as Sherry does and this is your point. I probably do a tenth of what she does in production she said. Isn't it interesting that my stock portfolio in less than two years of the EXP stock is 155000. I've never seen that much money in a investment account my life. Those are why Daniel's point of you don't have to be 150 million dollar producer with a big team. You could be a capper in that parlance. DANIEL: Well the story I told news about someone that's been in the company for three weeks its simply for this reason. And really this is the thing that people have to take with them. If you go and see who's making six figures profit share. Keller Williams which again a wonderful company that I love respected. Gary Keller will forever be one of my biggest influences if he goes to you. Who's collecting six fingers of profit share at Keller Williams what you're going to find is that it's not the superstar agents it's not the guys on YouTube on stage and being created around panels and it's not the celebrity agents that you whose names you know today it's actually the people whose names you don't know who were simply there early period. Now that doesn't mean they just showed up and didn't do it thing. And he EXP isn't that either. You can't just show up and not participate. It's not a get rich quick and just you just sign here you a million. No that's not what it is. But the people collecting six figures of profit share at KW And that's profit share revenue sharing exponentially more powerful only to talk about why in a moment. And a key reason why as we go deeper into it the number one reason why is top line revenue can't be manipulated. People collecting six figures of a profit share in this. You have to allow them to land. It's not a celebrity agent. It's not the people you saw on stage at the last conference convention etc. It's people that were there early. In my view is 1995 all over again being given the chance to enter. What's about to be the fastest growing company in the history of North American brokerage and I might be wrong right. I mean I've done an incredible job of being right more often than not in terms of my vision of where to take my business which is how we've got here. But I've also been wrong but was a guy like Curtis Johnson also rock the guy like Jay Kinder was a guy like Frank go wrong and Gene Frederick are all of these producers Kyle Wessell 200 million dollar producer was he also wrong are we all seeing the same thing and are we all wrong. Well I'm excited to find out. Here's the thing. The odds of all those people being very low and if we are we'll just go back to selling houses because that's what we're doing is we're selling houses. And so you obviously can hear the enthusiasm and buy my voice around what's going on here. It's just been on fun I keep coming back to that. You know what I'm talking about Kevin like me the amount of energy that you feel around all this. It's something I hadn't felt until... KEVIN: Absolutely I would agree with that completely. Before we drop off today if somebody is listen to this and they want to reach out to you and talk more about it what's the best way to reach you. DANIEL: Well two things you could do. One is my name is Daniel Beer. So just like the drink I'm easy to find. Go get me. Call me e-mail me it was jump on a call. The others go to fastforwardwebinar.com spell out the whole model. We spell out exactly why we've done what we've done not just my self on the way but some other mega producers that have made to jump as well. Independent brokerage's you know I'm giving you the KW because that's my history but independent brokerages are seeing that this becomes a platform where they still get to operate their brand. They're what they wanted to build their brokerage associates operated they just can get rid of this stuff it's not so unlike the broker stuff repurpose that time to building your passive revenue it and not have to take your eye off the ball at all as it relates to real estate sales. So you want more detail around it it is fastforwardwebinar.com and yeah it takes a whole webinars. The reason why is it's a completely different model. It's a model that I hadn't seen in my entire career. And it's just different. And when we've been looking for what's going to disrupt our marketplace. You know Kevin we always thought it was going to be someone that would create a button that would allow a buyer to purchase a home. That's actually not where the disruptions coming in disruptions coming in the brokerage space and how the agent is demanding value from their brokerage on a level that had never been previously demanded before it and that's happening more and more. It's killing the traditional model and this is the highest value proposition available today to people selling houses. KEVIN: Absolutely I agree with you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. DANIEL: You've got it!

Nasir and Matt welcome security guru Daniel Libby to discuss the issues involved with the secrecy of whistleblower apps, and answer the question, "We had an issue with some customer info that was compromised. Should we tell our customers, and if so, how?" Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Welcome to Legally Sound Smart Business. This is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And this is Matt Staub. NASIR: And welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist and also answer some of your business legal questions at ask@legallysoundsmartbusiness.com. That was a pretty good intro. MATT: Yeah. NASIR: That was nice and clean. MATT: Yeah, not too bad. NASIR: If I may say so myself. MATT: Yeah, it was good until you brought up the fact that it was nice and clean and good. NASIR: I know. I can’t not comment on the intro. It sticks with me. MATT: That’s fine. NASIR: So, what do we have up today? MATT: Well, this is a pretty interesting story. I was unaware of this before coming across this story but there’s a few apps out there – and the ones they mention are Whisper and Secret so you can probably figure out what these are – but it’s a way to communicate anonymously. I’ve checked them out and I still don’t fully understand the purpose of them but it’s basically a way to say what you have to say and do it was anonymity. The only problem is, you know, these apps have their own privacy policies in place. It basically allows them to take the information that’s communicated over these apps and give them to necessary people. It says, you know, law enforcement, subpoena for a civil lawsuit, or simply any accusation of wrongdoing on the service. NASIR: That’s general. MATT: Yeah, we touched on this last week with the Snapchat thing with information not disappearing. It’s another app that defeats its own purpose. NASIR: Except Snapchat was violating their policy, right? MATT: Yeah. NASIR: It was a little bit different with them. They actually had a privacy policy that protected it. This is like the complete opposite. But, you’re right, I don’t really get the point of it all either. But I thought we would bring Daniel Libby from Digital Forensics on. He’s what I call an IT technology security guru who also does some digital forensics. Daniel, welcome to the program. DANIEL: Good morning, gentlemen! I appreciate it very much. Thank you. NASIR: Absolutely. I’m curious whether you’ve even heard about these apps or not. I just wonder, the fact that you may have employees that are using this to whistleblow or to share company secrets is a little scary. I don’t know. DANIEL: It really is and I think it’s a group of folks that are building some apps that basically take advantage of a current trend as so many do. I was surprised by the amount of venture capital that was put into an app like this because there are several others that do basically the same thing. I would like to comment just real quick on your issue of Snapchat. The funny thing in the computer forensics world is we knew that Snapchat didn’t delete those photos and everything else right from the outset. It took the rest of the country maybe 18 or 24 months to figure it out, but we knew it right from the outset – that it didn’t do what it reported to do. MATT: That’s good. NASIR: Well, I think you can speak very well to even things that are deleted aren’t exactly deleted, right? DANIEL: You can take it exactly out of that, depending on the operating system. Apple does a better job – and I don’t know how much time I have but a really quick way that I explain it to a jury is you walk into a library and a file system on a Windows computer is basically a library. It gives you an address on where the book is on a shelf. You can go there, check out the book, not a problem. If you don’t want someone else to have the book, all you do is remove that reference from the card catalog. Now, the book is still on the shelf but no one else knows it’s there.