Podcast appearances and mentions of Josh One

If you missed the first and second episodes with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipant and founder Josh Herzig-Marks of Knect, you can listen to Josh's first episode (https://www.giantrobots.fm/incubators3e1josh) and his second (https://www.giantrobots.fm/s3e3incubatorjosh) to catch up. In the third interview with Josh, Lindsey Christensen, head of Marketing at thoughtbot, and Jordyn Bonds, head of the Incubator Program at thoughtbot, discuss the progress of Knect in the thoughtbot Incubator Program. Most of the conversation involves identifying and focusing on the right target audience. Initially, they considered startup enthusiasts, but after exploring other segments like journalists, they returned to startup enthusiasts with a more refined focus. Josh also talks about developing a prototype and its usefulness in getting feedback and refining the product concept. The technical feasibility of integrating various communication platforms into their solution is a significant focus. They examined different platforms like email, LinkedIn, WhatsApp, Telegram, and SMS to determine which integrations were essential for the minimum viable product. Looking forward, Josh outlines the next steps for the program, which include finalizing high-quality prototypes and making strategic decisions about the scale and funding of the project. Transcript: LINDSEY: Hi, everyone. JORDYN: Hi. LINDSEY: Thanks for tuning in and joining. We're going to be checking in on one of our incubator program participants today. If you haven't joined us before, thoughtbot runs a startup incubator, about an eight-week program for the early, early, early-stage company, idea, founder project to validate that business, find the market, and start thinking about how you build that thing. So my name is Lindsey Christensen. I head up Marketing here at thoughtbot. And today, I am joined by Jordyn Bonds, who heads up the incubator program at thoughtbot. And our guest of honor checking in once again, Josh Herzig-Marks, Founder of Knect, the company going through the program. Thanks for joining. JOSH: Super excited. I'm always excited. LINDSEY: How's it going? How is your founder sentiment this week? JOSH: This -- LINDSEY: Are you on a high? Are you on a low? JOSH: I don't think I'm on a typically high-high. I'm a pretty even-keeled, chill founder. I think it's appropriately enthusiastic but not excessively so, and definitely not at a low trough. LINDSEY: All right, even-keeled. We love to [crosstalk 01:19]. JOSH: Appropriately enthusiastic because we're doing really cool stuff. And this is a lot of fun. LINDSEY: Well, that's great. So, I mean, [inaudible 01:25] that you're working on and especially the last time I checked in with you in the really early stages, trying to find that target niche audience or invalidate, like, the problem with them. How is that going? How's that search for the people with the problem going? JOSH: Yeah. So just to, like, rewind the clock for the folks who maybe haven't seen every one of these, you know, there's a few things that I was trying to figure out to validate whether this problem that I saw was an opportunity for business. And, Jordyn, help me out if I forget some of these. So, number one, is this a Josh problem, or is this problem more broad? Question number two is, could we find an audience of people who are reachable, who share the problem, and who'd be willing to actually pay for this thing? And those little asterisks after pay, right? People pay for things with money but also with time or with reputation. Generally, we're thinking about money here, ultimately. But do they pay for this thing even in time? Would they be able to do that? And the reason we're looking for that kind of a more narrow audience is because you got to build for somebody in the very beginning. This isn't, like, we're limiting ourselves to a narrow audience forever, but we wanted a set of people who we could design this thing for, have prototypes, share it, and hopefully get some consistent feedback so we can build a thing which they would find useful and use that from there. That was two things. And the third thing: is this actually technically feasible? You know, the first time I was a founder, incidental to building our business, we built the world's fastest online transaction processing database that was processing, like, billions and billions of retail records in, like, the time it takes you to, like, click and drag and change the query that we're doing, which is really cool to say out loud, and it demoed really, really well. But that isn't actually a business. And what I wanted is part of validating if this idea, if this problem was an opportunity or something that wasn't a science experiment. And I'd love to talk a little bit more about what we've been doing over the past week, maybe a little later on in this. Because I think it's been a big week for the science experiment or not validation stage of this thing. So, two things we've also done over the past week and a half, two weeks since the last time we chatted, we have a prototype, which looks pretty good, which we can now use to show to people who we think are our core starting audience, our core starting market, and we actually have a core starting market. Both of these things are pretty exciting. I mean, I'm always excited. But we're doing it, like, we're doing the thing that we're supposed to be doing, and I like that. LINDSEY: That's really exciting. So, core starting market is happening. Do you want to talk about maybe how you got there? JOSH: One of the reasons why I was excited about doing this program is Jordyn, and I share the understanding of its importance. But when you're, like, actually the founder, it's really hard to see this, right? Jordyn is like the...I don't know quite how to describe it, but Jordyn is the person who, like, made sure we stayed focused on this part of the effort. And, like, it's a really key part of the thoughtbot incubator. And it's one of the reasons why I'm really appreciative of having gone through the program. JORDYN: So, Josh walked into the program with a problem that he had, which is frequently how products get made and companies get founded. Like, that's fine. It's a great starting place. And as he listed, his question was, is this a Josh problem, or is this a problem for more than just Josh? Because Josh isn't a market segment. Josh is an individual human [laughs]. And a lot of us have product ideas that we would love to have exist so that we can use them, but that doesn't make them good market opportunities. I may or may not be speaking from experience in that regard, ahem. Anyway, so part of the programming here was to figure this out. And it's great to start with, like, okay, well, if Josh is our primary user, who is Josh? Is there a market of Joshs, right? So, we actually started off talking to those folks. And, you know, we're human beings, and we tend to hang out with people like ourselves. And so, Josh knew a lot of people like Josh. One of those people that he knew was me. I am like Josh in regard to this pain point. I also had it. And then I was connected to a bunch of people who had this pain point. So, we broadly spoke to a lot of those folks at first. I don't know that we really had a persona name for this. I don't know, how would you frame this? JOSH: As you know, I only have poor pejorative names for people like us. JORDYN: [laughs] Pejorative? JOSH: There's, you know, a class of people who are at tech companies and startups, and sometimes they start their own companies, and sometimes they work at companies. And sometimes they do coaching. And sometimes they do a little bit of an investment. And sometimes they're on advisory boards. And, you know, when you kind of smoothly move from one thing to the next, sort of often doing several of these things all at the same time. And there's not a really good name for them, but they're kind of people, like I might go so far to say the three of us, and maybe a lot of people who work at thoughtbot and a lot of people we've all worked with in the past and, hopefully, a lot of the people who are listening to this conversation because they, too, could slip into the founding a company stage of this business. JORDYN: So, we've kind of loosely called those people, most recently, startup enthusiasts is our nickname, and there are a lot of folks under that umbrella. But as we talked to those people at this kind of high level, it was very broad. That maybe sounds fairly specific to some of you out there listening, but it's not specific, nearly specific enough to address with a product. So, we were talking. We were listening, getting people to talk to us, "Hey, tell us about how you keep in touch with folks. How does that go? What do you do? Have you ever built your own spreadsheet to keep track of people you know? Tell us about that." Broad questions. And we were learning things and hearing about trends. It wasn't coming into focus. We weren't hearing enough repeatable things. And we certainly weren't hearing about red, hot pain points. It was like a, "Yeah, this is kind of a problem sometimes, but not all the time. My system works more or less [inaudible 07:11]. Then we kind of found this range of personas. Some folks were just like, "I'm awesome at this. It's not a problem. I don't know what to tell you." Okay, well, clearly, that person doesn't need a product because they're feeling good. Great. At the other end of the spectrum, you have people who are just like, "I don't even know what you're talking about [laughs]. Like, this isn't [laughs]..." There were people who were like, "I know what you're talking about, but I'm good at it." There were people who were like, "I don't know what you're talking about. I don't care to ever do this." And then, there was this broad set of people in the middle who were like, "Yeah, I have a problem with this." But we were hearing a lot of different things. In the course of that, Rami, one of the folks on the team, ended up talking to a journalist. And that conversation was very interesting because it did seem like way more of a red, hot pain point with, like, something on the line. And we were like, oh, maybe we've been barking up the entire wrong tree and, like, startup enthusiasts aren't our people; journalists are our people. So, then we did a whole sprint with journalists and realized that journalists is a very broad umbrella [laughs]. There's a lot of different kinds of journalists in a lot of different kinds of contexts. And they have widely varying pain points, habits, needs, wants. We were like, okay, we're hearing some really interesting things in here, but they don't seem like early adopters because they are not the kind of people that just try an app who are just like, "Sure, new app, cool. I'll try that." Startup enthusiasts are people who just, like, try stuff. They're, like, on Product Hunt. They're friends with a bunch of founders, and those founders are, like, "Try this." And then they're like, "Sure, okay. Sure, I'll try it. I'll login." Login to anything once, right? Is kind of the attitude of this group of people, journalists not so much. And so, it felt like it was going to be a really hard thing to address those folks. But we learned a ton. And we really ended up mapping the emotional train in a lot of detail. And as a group, like, we came to a lot of alignment. There was a lot of, like, really good understanding, deeper understanding having gone on that journey. But where we ended up back was like, okay, startup enthusiasts really actually seem like [laughs] a place to start. And it feels like there's enough of them that they could create some kind of early adopter market. But now, with the information that we had, the new information we had, we were like, let us sub-segment this group of people. It's not everybody in that umbrella. Doing that whole journey enabled us to kind of come back to the question with renewed focus, but, like, conviction about how valuable it was going to be to do that, right? And sometimes that's what it takes. You kind of have to do the wrong thing for a second to appreciate doing the right thing, and that's totally fine. The fact that we were able to do that in, what, five weeks is, like, fine. JOSH: And I think the way that we found the sub-segment that made sense was actually pretty simple, right? Once we understood what are the dimensions that are actually important, we did a quick brainstorming session. This wasn't actually a very long process at the end of it, a quick brainstorming session. What are the different kinds of people who fall into this segment? And we just scored them on all the easy things you'd expect to score people on, namely: are they easy to find and easy for us to reach? Do they advertise this quality of theirs someplace publicly, like, perhaps on LinkedIn? And are they easy to find? Like, do we have enough of them inside of our network so we could, like, search for these kinds of folks? And as it turns out, we've already spoken to a lot of these kinds of folks as well. And primarily, we're talking to repeat founders and/or chiefs of staff at startups. JORDYN: If you are one of those people, please reach out to us. We'd like to talk to you. JOSH: We would love it. LINDSEY: Call to action. So, Josh, you mentioned one of the benefits of the program has been Jordyn's ability to kind of laser-focus on finding the target market. Jordyn, how do you do that? How do you keep the team coming back to that? Especially as sometimes it maybe doesn't take that long—sometimes it might feel like you're kind of circling around and around and still aren't finding anyone—and keeping folks motivated to do that or understanding, you know, when are we going to say, "This is it, you know, we're not finding someone"? JORDYN: I'll talk about how it worked in this case. And every team is different and is motivated by different things. And this process is a little different every time, so it's hard to make generalizations. But in this case, what was interesting is that after we did our journalist sprint and we were like, we do want to refocus on startup enthusiasts, but we need to understand a little bit better what we're doing, we actually prototyped a little bit given what we knew, which seems like a bad idea [laughs] on the face of it. It seems premature. The purpose of doing that, then, was to really take a different path to drawing out of each of us what was in our lines. That's, like, so much of the work of a team at this stage is, like, making sure that we're externalizing the things that we're thinking and the assumptions that we have. And it's strange. You would think you would just be like, "Hey, tell me what's in your mind?" But minds don't work that way. You can't just be like, "Hey, mind, what's up?" And then articulate it perfectly in a way that everybody in this group is going to know what you mean. So, prototyping actually drew a bunch of that stuff out. It really...I think that was the moment...I don't know, Josh, how you feel about it. We had been kind of in the doldrums because we did get to the end of that journalists' sprint. And we were like, what are we doing? What have we learned? And prototyping at that moment enabled us to...it was a different way of understanding what we had learned and what we were all now thinking. And it really drew a bunch of dynamics out that it was super helpful. JOSH: It brought some real sharpness to what we thought we'd be able to...the kind of value we thought we could deliver in the early versions of this thing, right? Fast forward two years, who knows? But it brought some sharpness to the kinds of problems that we thought we'd be able to fix and the kinds of problems we thought we couldn't solve. And that also clarified for us, certainly for me, why, oh, here's why this isn't really landing with the journalists, right? And here's why this isn't really landing with some other kinds of folks we were talking to. And -- JORDYN: Biz dev folks. We talked to a bunch of biz dev folks. It wasn't going to land with them, but yeah -- JOSH: They weren't at all excited about it, and then we can kind of understand why. One of the ways that I think about a prototype and I talk about this a lot, and I love doing this. Somebody called this a Pinocchio prototype, the wooden child who wants to be a real boy. Once we had a prototype, we could actually put it onto our actual phones. And I'm not sure how many other people did this on the team besides me but, like, I would carry my phone around with a prototype on it. And every time I thought I might use it, I would pull the damn thing out of my pocket and, like, tap away on the phone. It gave me, again, a very clear sense of the kinds of things I thought we were moving towards solving and the kinds of things that we weren't really solving. LINDSEY: Yeah, Josh, you mentioned there were some exciting developments in the past week. Is that around the prototype? JOSH: This is one. Having the prototype on there was good. It's also really nice to have this be part of a larger team. I was having a hard time. I had been playing with, like, our design team's paper prototype. I was having a hard time communicating what I was trying to do inside of my head. So, I built my own parallel prototype in Google Slides, which was exactly as awesome looking and as functional as everybody listening is imagining it must have been. If you would like your own copy of my Google Slides app development template, please reach out. I will share it [laughs]. But it let me think a little bit, again, the same thing, like, here's how these things fit together. And then it started moving really, really fast. Once we were all putting things down in a way that we could play with, and touch, and talk about in a concrete way, it felt like that part of things started to move really fast. And the quality of our conversations improved with people we were talking to as well. I would say that's half of the things that are really exciting. LINDSEY: Just to continue on the prototype for a second, Jordyn mentioned a major outcome of starting to use the prototype; well, I guess [inaudible 14:37] that you all as a team got better aligned around what you were envisioning for the solution. And then, it also helped you, again, kind of identify the true target market. Are there other things you're already learning from using the prototype and getting it in front of people? JOSH: Yeah, I think there are. By the way, this shouldn't be surprising. This is, like, the classic diverge-converge model that I know thoughtbot uses all the time with not just startup clients when you're building something new. One of the things which, you know, rewind the clock six and a half weeks ago to when we started this thing. I didn't realize how much intelligence would be required behind the scenes to make this thing actually sensible to the final users. And the more we show it to people, the more we realize that, like, intelligence to make things look simple is going to equal people actually using the damn thing. I think we started to see that ourselves in playing with it. But it's really important to have that be validated by actual potential users who aren't, like, in this shit themselves. JORDYN: I mean, immediately, you know, we were able to start showing the prototype to the folks that we were having interviews with, and there's just nothing better than that because they're not going to pull their punches with you. And we got a lot of great immediate sort of spicy feedback [laughs] from people, especially if you're showing them to people who are, like, startup people [laughs], they're just not going to be nice. And so, there was a lot of [crosstalk 15:59]. JOSH: They're like, "Have you considered making this suck less?" JORDYN: Yeah, exactly. "I wouldn't use this at all [laughs]." You're just like, "Okay, thanks." Tell me how you really feel [laughs]. But it's great. I mean, like, there's nothing better than that. Like, I would way rather that than a bunch of people trying to be polite. JOSH: And it also prompts feedback that we wouldn't necessarily have thought of, which is the idea of this. We [inaudible 16:20] thought of this on our own. Like the idea that sometimes you might want to not take an action when you don't really care about a person. But sometimes you really, like, dislike a person so much who you've been talking to you want to never see them again, right? Never show me this person again. It's a thing that we never would have come to, I think, if we hadn't, like, actually been showing the prototype to end users. LINDSEY: Okay, what is the second half of the exciting thing that happened in the past week? JOSH: This is very much a thoughtbot thing. thoughtbot is full of really talented engineers. And over the past couple of days, we've been able to bring a lot of those folks to bear on the question of like, is this thing technically feasible or not? Which was one of my big concerns. And it turns out, that was probably too large a question for the team that we started with. And to be able to, like, do this, like, little discovery spike with, you know, going beyond the three-and-a-half thoughtboter team that we had to some of your most talented, most experienced engineering leads, not forever, but just for, like, a short moment is kind of, for me, at least, like, a real taste of, like, the thoughtbot value is, you know, Jordyn gets to put out a call for assistance, you know, across the company, and people raise their hands and put real-time in. And, you know, we're able to do something in a couple of days that we probably couldn't have done because we have enough people. And, you know, all those, like, network effects of people coming together that could have taken us, you know, weeks or longer just kind of toiling on our own. LINDSEY: For those technical challenges, maybe you don't want to get into specifics, but in broad strokes, can you talk about what some of those considerations are? And maybe at this point, maybe it makes sense to also talk a little bit about, like, how the solution, how you're thinking about the evolution of what the solution is and provides. JOSH: I have an Android phone. I live in the world as a green bubble in a world of blue bubbles. My partner and I are in an interfaith relationship. She has an iPhone. I have an Android phone. And forever, people are accidentally trying to hit up my, like, iMessage account tied to my email address, and the things don't come through. And, all of a sudden, this company someplace in the U.S. figured out some way to, like, reverse engineer the Apple messages iMessages protocol, so I can put iMessages onto my Android phone. They built this thing. It's been, like, all over the tech news recently. This is the problem, if you're trying to bring together all of somebody's social network, is that there is no, like, handy-dandy API for iMessages. There is no handy-dandy API for regular SMS or RCS or any of those other variations of that. There is no handy-dandy API for WhatsApp, for Telegram, sort of ish, kind of maybe for Slack, not really for Discord. It remains to be seen how mature it is for LinkedIn. By the way, email works great, right? If we just build our entire lives off of email, we'd have none of these problems, but we can't. And we had some hypotheses about ways that we could make connecting these other accounts easier. And we just took, like, an awful lot of hands, right? More than two hands. It took more than two hands to figure out if these things were possibilities if those things turn out to be true. And the answer is if they are true, which we're still working to figure out, though it's looking better and better, this isn't a science experiment, right? And if it's not true, then step one is an awful lot of engineer hours to go do what those Beeper Mini folks did and reverse engineer a whole bunch of protocols and systems that were never intended to be open in the first place. JORDYN: I would like to say -- JOSH: Which is why we should all donate to EFF and promote an open internet so that startups like mine don't need to exist. JORDYN: To loop back to your earlier question, Lindsey, about how to keep the team focused on who something is for, this conversation seems like it's not about that. But, to me, this conversation is also about that because we have a long list of messaging platforms that we have heard from folks, like from interviewing them would be useful to have brought into a single place. This was one of the key pain points that Josh has that we heard from other people, which is, like, you connect with people across platforms, right? You might be connected to some on LinkedIn, but you're also emailing with them. Your email history with them is not a complete history of your life with them. None of your online stuff is going to be a complete history because sometimes you actually interact with people [laughs] in reality, which is still, at this moment, not being recorded all the time, but probably not for long. JOSH: As little as possible. JORDYN: [laughs] But still, even within the online world, you're communicating with people across platforms. Maybe you text with someone, maybe you message on LinkedIn, whatever. And having complete context for your relationship with them in a way that makes it really easy to kind of, like, boot up that context in order to reach out to them for some reason, like, maybe you haven't talked in six months, and you just want to remember, where did I leave this relationship? What's going on with this person, right? You're like, where was I talking to them? Oh, I was talking to them in these four places that don't have very good protocols for being brought into the same interface, right? So, like, the stuff is, like, all connected. But to get back to the who question, we have this list of places we'd heard from people, like, in the early interviews and places that Josh was trying to do this connect with people, et cetera. So, it's, like, Slack DMs, and it's email, and it's LinkedIn, whatever. But we also heard Telegram, and we also heard other things. If we don't sufficiently focus on a narrow enough group of people, we risk making the MVP way too big because it needs to connect with every one of these things. And we can't go to market with something that doesn't connect with 12 platforms or something, right? But because we're sufficiently focused, we could actually do the thing where we're like, okay, well, out of this list of platforms, what are, like, the top five? Where is the line? Where's the minimum viability here with what we can connect with that will actually bring value? And I also am an Android user living in an iPhone world. And Josh and I at least have enough awareness to be like, you know what? Maybe Android isn't necessary, even though we would love [laughs] for it to be there. Nine times out of 10, the people that look like us are using iPhones, right? So great, cool. Let's just do the thing. JOSH: Obligatory iPhone test device. JORDYN: Right. I have one, too, but I don't know where it is. So, like, the question of who really matters. Who, like, really helps you focus? If your answer to "Who?" is anybody with a smartphone, well, like, it's going to be really tough to build an actual MVP that's buildable. So, this question that Josh brought in to us, which is, like, "What's technically feasible here?" really intersects very directly with this question of who are we building for? Because you really want to be able to start somewhere. And, you know, if you have a sufficiently red, hot need and it's not, like, to time travel or something that is, like, probably impossible given the laws of our universe, you can find a way, right? And so, the question was, like, why don't we find that so that we can focus on whether it's worth finding a way? And then that intersection of who it's for, what their pain points are, and what's possible with what amount of effort. It all fits together. No single one of those pieces is sufficient for figuring out a path forward. LINDSEY: And are you taking the, you know, okay, we've gotten really good sight on these startup enthusiasts, and these are their top four communication methods; let's try to solve them? Is that the approach? JORDYN: More or less, yeah. Yes. It's like, can we interface with those top...I think for us, it's like a top five, maybe six. JOSH: Five or six. JORDYN: But, like, the first one on there is email, and that's not a problem. Like, we don't...that's fine. LinkedIn is also not a problem; one and two are email, and LinkedIn: good. We're cool with that. That's okay. JOSH: Because every individual has their own thing. So, you know, you may be talking about long tail services, you know, but for the person who uses Telegram as their, like, daily driver, which isn't most people in the U.S., but there's a lot of people abroad, not having Telegram means it isn't useful. And I think that's one of the things hard about this, right? This is a hard business potentially, or it's really easy. We have no idea yet. And that's part of what I find exciting about this is because over the next, you know, week or so, we'll find out how hard a business this is actually, or at least where are the technically difficult parts? LINDSEY: Great segue. What does the next week look like as we've got market niche, prototype, technical feasibility intersectioning, figuring those things out? What exciting things are on the horizon? What's next? JOSH: So, we have about two weeks left, and at the end of two weeks, we're going to end up with a set of high-quality prototypes, which, you know, are easy for any of us to have on our phones, and to flash around to rando strangers we meet at the grocery store because there's no better way to make friends than product testing. And we'll have a good sense of how big and complicated, and complicated in what ways might it be to build this thing. And then, it's time for Josh to make some decisions around, you know, the whole goal of this was to figure out, like, how big of an opportunity is this just to go and do that? What could growth look like? What could pricing look like? Where might the costs be? What would the cost be to build this? Is this, like, a side gig scale thing? Is it a small, you know, angel-funded startup thing? Is this, like, a VC-size thing? I really hope it's not a VC-size thing. And then to think about, you know, what are the resources that would be required to build it, and where might those resources come from? So, at the end of this, two weeks out from now, I think we'll have all the information, you know, that we need. And then, I know a whole bunch of people inside of thoughtbot who are in a great place to provide their own thoughts and advice and experience and feedback on this. And I'll take this to my personal board of directors, including my family, but also, you know, other experienced entrepreneurs and investors I know, and we'll talk through this. And we'll have to go make some decisions, which is a little scary and a little bit fun, but a nice way to kick off 2024. JORDYN: And a lot easier to do after this program. JOSH: We'll have some real information, right? [laughs] JORDYN: Yes. LINDSEY: That's the goal, right? JOSH: Yeah. LINDSEY: Of the incubator to get you in that spot where you can make educated decisions and get others up to speed really quickly with all that research. JOSH: That's right. LINDSEY: That's great. All right. So, you had a call to action earlier. What was that? Oh, if startup enthusiasts are listening, we want to chat with them and talk to them about the solution. JOSH: If you're a founder, if you're a multi-time founder and either done it a couple of times in the past or you're still doing it, reach out. If you are a startup chief of staff and you can define that role for yourself, please reach out. We'd love to talk to you there as well. If you would like a copy of Josh's free wireframing template for mobile apps, please reach out, and I will be happy to provide you that as well. LINDSEY: Amazing. Thank you once again, Josh and Jordyn, for joining and catching us up. It definitely was an exciting update. I can't wait to hear what happens in the final stretch. JOSH: Me too. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Special Guests: Jordyn Bonds and Josh Herzig-Marx .

After many problems with software updates etc I finally got the mixer to work although I still have no mic so it is a voiceless selection recorded without distortion at last show number 140 for your ears...ENJOY! Scruscru - It's Been On My Mind (Original Mix) Birdee, Kelli Sae - Best There Ever Was (Extended Mix) Raheem Madee - The Supreme Power (Original Mix) Eddie Leader - The Unknown (Original Mix) Atjazz - Harmony 6th Borough Project - Truth SoulFreakah - Calling Out His Name (feat. Zibandlela) Roque - Joy Song (Original Mix) Ron Carroll, Swaylo - Something Beautiful (Michael Gray Remix) Patrick Green Feat. Big Brooklyn Red - Shine Your Light On Me (Phil Asher Restless Soul Mix) Paris Cesvette, Hannah Khemoh - Better (Extended Vocal Mix) Pat Bedeau Jodie Erica - Gold (Main Mix) DJ Spen pres. Yooks & Rona Ray - Goosebumps (Original Mix) Robert Owens, Yass - Beautiful (Main Mix) Aloe Blacc, Josh One, Demetrius Rhymes - Sacrifice (Terry Hunter Club Mix) Cafe 432, Lifford - Symphony (Extended Club Mix) Homero Espinosa - Dance to the Rhythm of Love (David Harness Afro Puff Mix) Tasha LaRae, Larry Espinosa - Something Special (DJ Spen & Reelsoul Vibes Mix) Stacy Kidd Feat. Tracy Hamlin - He's The One Remix (Stacy Kidd House 4 Life Dub Remix) Migosy - Skyline (Sean McCabe Vocal Mix) Aki Bergen Ft. Carmen Miranda - Into My Soul (Full Intention Remix) Kenny Bobien, Jose Burgos - Love Is The Only Way (Jonny Montana Sax Remix)

After many problems with software updates etc I finally got the mixer to work although I still have no mic so it is a voiceless selection recorded without distortion at last show number 140 for your ears...ENJOY! Scruscru - It's Been On My Mind (Original Mix) Birdee, Kelli Sae - Best There Ever Was (Extended Mix) Raheem Madee - The Supreme Power (Original Mix) Eddie Leader - The Unknown (Original Mix) Atjazz - Harmony 6th Borough Project - Truth SoulFreakah - Calling Out His Name (feat. Zibandlela) Roque - Joy Song (Original Mix) Ron Carroll, Swaylo - Something Beautiful (Michael Gray Remix) Patrick Green Feat. Big Brooklyn Red - Shine Your Light On Me (Phil Asher Restless Soul Mix) Paris Cesvette, Hannah Khemoh - Better (Extended Vocal Mix) Pat Bedeau Jodie Erica - Gold (Main Mix) DJ Spen pres. Yooks & Rona Ray - Goosebumps (Original Mix) Robert Owens, Yass - Beautiful (Main Mix) Aloe Blacc, Josh One, Demetrius Rhymes - Sacrifice (Terry Hunter Club Mix) Cafe 432, Lifford - Symphony (Extended Club Mix) Homero Espinosa - Dance to the Rhythm of Love (David Harness Afro Puff Mix) Tasha LaRae, Larry Espinosa - Something Special (DJ Spen & Reelsoul Vibes Mix) Stacy Kidd Feat. Tracy Hamlin - He's The One Remix (Stacy Kidd House 4 Life Dub Remix) Migosy - Skyline (Sean McCabe Vocal Mix) Aki Bergen Ft. Carmen Miranda - Into My Soul (Full Intention Remix) Kenny Bobien, Jose Burgos - Love Is The Only Way (Jonny Montana Sax Remix)

If you missed the first episode with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipant and founder Josh Herzig-Marks of Knect, you can go here first (https://www.giantrobots.fm/incubators3e1josh) to catch up. A key focus of Josh's second episode is the importance of user research and customer discovery. Josh stresses that talking to users is crucial, as it grounds the development process in reality. thoughtbot's Director of Product Strategy, Jordyn Bonds, adds that direct engagement with users builds empathy and understanding within the team, making it more effective. They also discuss the challenges of identifying a product's target audience and the importance of iterative customer feedback. Josh and Jordyn highlight the need for founders to be resilient and open to feedback, even when it's negative. Transcript: JOSH: We're live. DAWN: Welcome. Thanks, everyone, for joining. I'm Dawn. I am going to be emceeing today, facilitating, really just asking questions and letting these great people talk. Filling in for Lindsey, who is usually here. Thanks for being here. We're excited to talk to everyone and hear your comments and questions. You might be familiar with thoughtbot. We're a product design and development consultancy. And we like to help people make products or make products better. We are currently in our third incubator session. And today, we're talking to one of two founding teams. And in case you aren't familiar with the incubator, it's an eight-week program that we run with founders. We pair founders up with a product quad from thoughtbot. And we undergo market research, customer discovery, basically market and product validation exercises to help us hone in on a solution, a potential solution for the problem that we're trying to solve, and build a product plan with the founder, basically set them off on a path for success, hopefully, and next steps. Do you want to kick us off, Jordyn? JORDYN: Yes. DAWN: Tell the people about yourself. JORDYN: I'm Jordyn. I'm the Director of Product Strategy on Dawn's team. Dawn is my boss. And I sort of run the incubator. I have also founded two startups and been the first head of product at two others, so four early-stage startups. JOSH: I'm Josh. I am the founder part of this who is working with the thoughtbot incubator. I founded a startup. I wasn't very good at it. I was very lucky at it. I was head of product at a whole series of other startups. And I enjoy that a lot. A few folks have asked me why I wanted to join the thoughtbot incubator if I've done this before. I'm, like, moderately techie for a non-technical person. And I coach other founders in doing the sorts of things that Jordyn and her team are coaching me on. So, I'm doing this thing for a few reasons. One is being a founder is really, really lonely. But the other one is that there's just a huge value in bringing together the diverse set of perspectives. And we're doing that with a company that's really good at getting complicated things out the door, having them be successful through a focus on who the end user is. It kind of felt like a no-brainer because I felt like—and we talked about this last week—I had the Josh problem that I wanted there to be a solution to. And trying to figure out, is there a larger opportunity that this represents? DAWN: Thanks. Well, you cued us up well for the topic, at least that we're going to start with today, which is user research or customer discovery. I think it probably goes by several names. That's another interesting topic we [laughs] could get into. But what is this user research that you're doing? Why is it important? What's it doing for this team at this stage? JOSH: One of the founders I work with asked me a couple of months ago, "Just remind me again, what are the things I have to do to build a product?" And I'm like, "It's actually really easy," right? My, like, standing on one foot advice is talk to users, mostly customers. Bring your engineers along when you can. And if you do those things, mostly everything will work out. But I think it's actually, like, there's some subtlety in all of those things, right? It's not that talking to users or customers is going to solve all of your problems. It's just that you're not going to make any progress in the absence of doing that, right? Because then you're just talking to yourself. And I don't know about everybody else here in this group or who might be listening, but it's really easy to get yourself all spun up inside of your head if you're only talking to yourself. Users are the ones who ground you, right? And ultimately, users are the ones who could turn to customers. So, why customers, right? As the people you really want to be talking to. Now, we don't have any customers yet, so we can't do that. But you know something about customers more than anybody else, and that's they're willing to pay for the thing, for the problem you're trying to solve. They could be paying in money. They could be paying in time. They could be paying in reputation. Oftentimes, they'll be paying in all three of those things or two out of three of those things. But they have an expressed willingness to pay. And that's really the magic of, like, having a product and having those conversations. Now, why do you bring along your engineers? It's because the most effective tech companies...and I think thoughtbot is maybe unusual in design-build firms in really internalizing this, but the most successful tech companies are the ones where the entire organization is aligned around understanding who is our market? Who is our customer? What is their problem, and what does it take to solve that problem for them? And too often, all that stuff is, like, stuck inside of the founder's head, or the sales team's head, or the marketing team's head, or the product manager's head, or little bits of stories are stuck other places. But when we're all listening to the same conversations, that's when it's most effective to build alignment around who's the customer? What are their needs? What would they pay for? JORDYN: I agree. And I would add some detail there that why does it work like that? How does having everyone at the organization talk to users and customers build that alignment? And it's one of those things that's kind of, like, it has to be seen to be believed in a certain way. But, like, you can break it down. You know, we can all sit in a room and argue about what reality looks like out there. But it's a lot more efficient if we're all living in that reality together. There's a lot less bringing everyone along. If you've got skeptics on your team, and I hope that you do because they're very useful people, they want to hear it from the source. So, great, go have them hear it from the source. And there's nothing that's more motivating as an engineer, having been an engineer, than seeing someone live fail to achieve their goal in the piece of software you're working on. You will turn around and go fix that bug right then. A bug that has maybe been sitting at the top of the backlog for, like, six weeks or six months, when you see someone struggling with it [laughs] in action, you'll be like, oh, I see. Okay, this is actually causing a lot of angst out there, and I... So, anyway, building that empathy, it's always easiest to build it directly. And it's harder if I am here and if I'm having to triangulate empathy through someone else. Like, if only one person on your team is talking to users and listening to users, and then they come back to the team, and they're like, "Here's what I'm hearing," maybe the team believes you. Maybe they hear the same things out of your mouth that they would have heard directly out of the user, but probably not [laughs]. So, it sounds less efficient. People resist it because it feels intuitively, I think, to a lot of people like a waste of time to have engineers doing user interviews or having anyone else. There's a lot of pushback at organizations for doing this for different reasons. If you're doing, like, an enterprise SaaS thing, sales might really not want anyone else talking to customers because they worry it's going to erode that relationship that they feel like they have. Nothing could be further from the truth in my experience. Customers feel valued. The more people on your team they talk to, the more they are listened to, the more they are taken seriously, and, like, have people engaging with them, that only bolsters your relationship with them, not the opposite. But either way, it's just much more efficient when everyone is hearing the thing from the people it's impacting directly. I get that that does not intuitively feel true, but I assure you that it is true. DAWN: So, -- JOSH: And even more so at this stage where our experience as designers or engineers is much less important than our experience as team members who are trying to find who is that initial audience going to be who is so motivated they will let us build a product for them? DAWN: That's exactly what my follow-up question was related to, which is there's this sort of perception that you sort of stay in your lane, right? With the different roles that you occupy [laughs] in an organization, whether it's early stage or later stage. And even for people who are participating in that customer discovery, you kind of want to, like, ask questions that are most relevant to your role. So, how do you, like, prepare teams or, you know, offer guidance to teams to help them sort of get into the right mindset going into those conversations, not so that they execute it perfectly because they have to have some UX design background, but so that you can learn the important things? JOSH: I think it is totally natural for someone to feel unprepared coming into these, but that's okay, right? Their job is to develop this as a skill, and the only way they're going to do that is by actually doing it. I am certain there were people on the thoughtbot team who felt uncomfortable doing this for the first time, talking to somebody who wasn't even a user, a rando who Josh found on the internet who was willing to chat and go talk to them. And I know they got better at it because I get to watch everybody's interview recordings, and I get to watch the notes they're taking. And I get to watch my own. And we have, like, a team of five of us who, like, are all getting better at this, and that's good. These things are skills, and you got to practice them, which, putting on my friends of thoughtbot hat, is, I think, one of the reasons why thoughtbot likes to do these things because it's a chance to develop these skills in a really intense way, which we may not otherwise get to. And it's a thing that, you know, as a founder, I want everybody on my team to be getting good at as quickly as possible. So, sure, prep work. You read a book. It's like baking a cake, right? You know, you can read cookbooks. You can walk up and down the aisle at the supermarket, right? You can go to the bakery and try other people's cakes, but until your arms are deep in flour, butter, and sugar, like, you've no idea what you're really talking about. And I just want to get people making a mess in the kitchen as fast as possible. Nothing bad happens if you have a bad interview. Lots of bad things happen if you never interview. That's my very strong opinion. JORDYN: I share the opinion and its intensity. That is exactly how I would have answered. JOSH: [laughs] JORDYN: There's no substitute for doing the thing. And you can spend your whole life feeling like you're not ready to do the thing. You're not going to learn and get better at it until you just start doing it. It's like...and, Josh, you are right. That is partly what this incubator is for, both internally and externally. One of the main differentiators of what we're doing here with this incubator from other incubator programs out there is we get into the kitchen with you and get our arms and elbow deep in flour with you so that we can help founders, not necessarily Josh who has brought some skills into this with him, but, like, so that you know what it feels like to do the thing. There's a lot of content out there about how to start a company, how to do customer discovery, all this stuff, and you can read all of that stuff. You can also listen to people talk about it all the livelong day. There are tons of people out there who do this all the time. They are on podcasts. They are here on this live stream. That's cool [laughs]. Like, listen to them. But really, there's no substitute for you getting out there and talking to people. And this, I just cannot stress this, like, so many people...given my role here and what I do, people often bring their startup ideas to me. People at thoughtbot, people outside of thoughtbot they say, "I have this idea." I ask, "Who is it for?" They tell me. I say, "Have you talked to those people?" and they say, "I'm not ready to start talking to people yet." And I'm like, "That is incorrect. You're talking to me. The only way you're going to get to a thing is if you start talking to people, like, yesterday." And they resist. "Well, I still need to figure out." And I'm like, "No, you don't need [laughs] to figure anything out." If you're going to build something for someone, go engage with them, learn what their life is like, what their work is like today. Hello, people listening to this, do this today. JOSH: Jordyn talks a lot about the emotional labor of being a founder, and I think it's really important. Like, hey, founders out there who hear this and they feel a bit overwhelmed, that's okay, right? The thing which you're going to learn how to do as a founder is talk to people about the thing you're trying to do and have people give you feedback you don't like, and it's not fun. You know, I work with a lot of very technical founders, and it's amazing the things people will do to avoid that. They will take their savings, their retirement money out of the bank and plow it into design-build firms. They will quit their jobs to build this thing themselves just to avoid having that potentially unpleasant conversation. So, potential founders, if you want to prepare yourself for being a successful founder or even a mediocre founder, the thing which you need to do is [laughs] improve your frustration tolerance. Get really good at people telling you your idea is bad, or your process is bad, or something else is bad. And maybe they're right, and maybe they're wrong, and it doesn't matter. But you got to be able to tolerate that. JORDYN: Yes, you have to be able to tolerate that. And you have to be able to actually, like, listen for the relevant feedback that's buried in there. So, the founder Josh just described was me, P.S. JOSH: [laughs] JORDYN: The first time. JOSH: Not just you. JORDYN: And not just me, not merely me, but it was me. You know, technical background definitely plowed my meager savings—because I'd already been working in startups, which does not pay well, newsflash [laughs]. I don't know if any of you know this; they don't pay well—into a product that I hadn't really spoken to very many people about. But I knew that I needed to start talking about it with people, but I didn't know how to do that well. That's okay. So, I started talking to people about it after the fact. I should have done this sooner. That's cool. My first company was this product called TallyLab. Like, you can think of it like a data diary app. Basically, it's a place you can go and collect small data to kind of figure out, like, if you think you have a food allergy. Think of it like a food allergy notebook but a digital app for it. I think that when the moon is full, and I eat over a pint of strawberries, I get a stomach ache, whatever it is. So, you need to track the cycles of the moon and how much strawberries you ate and when, and then you can do this analysis. Anyway, if you're thinking to yourself, that doesn't sound like a business, you are correct. Anyway [laughs], I was describing this to my friend's dad. My friend had just had her first kid. I was over meeting this baby. Her dad was there. And he was just like, "What do you do?" And I was like, "Oh, I have a startup." He's like, "What's your startup do?" And I told him. And he was like, "Sounds like you're just feeding people's OCD to me." Like, I felt physical pain at that reaction to this. Like, he was like not only...his tone was so derisive [laughs]. But, like, there was information for me in that. First of all, I needed to think about who is this guy. Where is he coming from? Does this have anything to do with his life at all? Should I even listen to this? In fact, maybe he's, like, my anti-ideal customer. And this feedback is great for me because it means my ideal customer is a good fit, whatever. There's information in there, right? But this was some of the first feedback I was getting on this from someone in the wild [laughs]. So, I had to dig that dagger right out of my heart. So, it's going to happen. It's going to happen, but you got to, like, steel yourself for it, like Josh says. And you also find a way to respond to it with curiosity. So, if I could go back in time to that conversation...I just changed the subject immediately, I think, at the time. I was like, "Cool. Let's talk about something else [laughs]." What I should have done is been like, "Tell me more. Why does it strike you like that? Tell me more about this problem in your life," right? That was an opportunity for me to have a customer interview, and I just totally whiffed it [laughs]. DAWN: Hopefully, it didn't harm your relationship with your friend [laughs]. JORDYN: Not at all. Not at all. I think she felt somewhat aghast. She was like, "Dad, lay off." [laughs] JOSH: Which is actually the other lesson to take from this, which is these things all feel really important and personal and, like, present to you as the founder. Nobody else gives a shit. JORDYN: No. And this was a lesson for me. I at least didn't have that problem because I had been in a series of touring rock bands, and I had learned over and over again how little anything I was doing mattered to anyone. Like, you know, you get to the point where, like, you walk offstage, and you're like, "That was the worst set we ever played." No one knows that. No one cares. They were, like, talking to their girlfriend at the bar the whole time, like, whatever, man [laughs]. Like, whatever is going on with you, you as a human are maybe this big in their purview. What you're doing professionally is even smaller. So, like, don't sweat it. They're not going to be thinking about it again, ever [laughs]. DAWN: That's the thing. Maybe your startup idea doesn't matter, but you matter. Everyone here matters. Okay? JORDYN: Yes. DAWN: So, I want to go back to the users or the particular customers in this case. Have there been any surprises? Have there been any daggers out there or any delights? What have you been learning? JOSH: Last time we were speaking, we were basically talking to a convenient sample of people who, let's be honest, look a lot like Jordyn and myself, right? They are people in mostly U.S. tech companies, mostly early-stage ones, not necessarily programmers, but maybe they found the company. Maybe they work in product management, or they have other kinds of executive roles. Maybe they change their job every couple of years because that's what people in tech companies do. Maybe they like, you know, they carry around a smartphone. They live out of their smartphone. They care about building a network. They attend in-person things when they can. They're in a bunch of, like, networking Slacks, and WhatsApp groups, and things like that. And they all kind of look the same. And I think the last time we spoke two weeks ago, we were noticing that this thing we were trying to work on was a problem for all of them but not necessarily a problem that they were, on average, investing a whole lot of time and energy into. We recognized this as a group largely because everybody was participating in the conversations and getting better and better at it and getting better and better at kind of, like, pulling out the insights. So, we experimented with a couple of other audiences. And the reminder here is the idea isn't to build a product for one of these audiences; the idea is to build the first version of the product for one of these audiences who feels the need so intensely they're actually going to use the damn thing and give you some feedback. So, the audience has to have a real pain–a willingness to do some work. And we have to be able to find them, so some attribute that allows us to identify where they are. They all hang out at the playground after recess is, like, a good attribute, or they all search for the same kinds of things using the same language or a comparable language on Google, or they all follow the same people on TikTok. They are all examples of audiences that we could somehow identify and address. People who, you know, deep down, are worried that their second-grade teacher didn't like them enough, right? Probably not an addressable audience, even though you can imagine, you know, all sorts of potential problems and potential solutions you can build for those folks. So, we got to find that. So, we've experimented with a few other groups. One is we identified early on in kind of our broader conversations that journalists might have a need for this, journalists or folks that have a broad network, and they check in with those people frequently. And the other one was people who do Biz Dev, or partnerships work at tech companies as well. And we reached out to a bunch of people. And we discovered that both those groups are probably also a little bit too big for us to be focused on. It's not that nobody in those groups had a burning need for the thing that we're trying to do; it's that people in those groups overall didn't. And now we got to go figure out, like, okay, is there, like, a subgroup inside of there that we can identify? Just sports journalists, just investigative journalists, just journalists who don't have a salary who work freelance, just radio journalists, you know, just journalists who went to specific schools. Hard to know what that's going to be, and that's the work that we're doing, like, literally right now. JORDYN: We actually published our methodology for doing this recently. People should go to thoughtbot.com and look at our Playbook, our Customer Discovery Playbook, if you want to know how to do this. It is not black magic or something. Basically, you just think about the dynamics that matter that create a need for the thing that you're contemplating building, and then you just generate giant lists of the people who might need that thing. And guess what? It's going to be totally wrong and weird, and a bunch of different shaped groups of people. It is going to be like people who hang out at the playground and also dog walkers, and just, like, some weird random assortment of personas, individuals, groups of people, but that's where you start. And then you start learning. You take what you know about those people today, and you find the best place to start. And then you start talking to them, and then you learn why they are or are not a good fit, and you keep going through the list. So, it's not mysterious, but it is work. It is hard work. Synthesizing on a team what you're hearing is part of that hard work, but it's really invaluable because everybody, like Josh mentioned earlier, brings something different to the conversation, thinks about it from a different vantage, brings different life experiences. And that is just invaluable to unlocking insights, perspectives, directions to pursue. It really is very much a...I don't know what we would call it. It's like a real...it's the hard work. You go talk to a bunch of people. You get together as a group, and you talk to each other about what you're hearing from all the other people [laughs]. You go back and talk to more people or the same people if you realized you weren't asking them the things that you needed to be asking them. You come back together. And out of that process, the patterns emerge. DAWN: This is also kind of meta, the fact that y'all are doing so much customer discovery with potential customers who their entire work lives [laughs] are managing conversations, both the frequency and timing of that, but also, like, what they're learning from those conversations. So, that's super interesting. It sounds like, obviously, there are still many conversations to be had. But what else is next? I know we're about halfway through the program. So, what are y'all looking into for the next week or two? JOSH: I mean, we don't yet have that audience, which is, I think, a really important part of this and something which I think about all the time as the founder. What does this mean that it's hard to find the audience? Like, what does that tell about the idea, about the opportunity? But I think we've had enough conversations with enough people who have enough similarities in the problems we're trying to solve that I think we're getting good insights into if we knew who would really want this thing; we have some good ideas about how we might be able to help them out. So, we're starting to actually go through the process of, you know, the really early sketches, the wireframes. And what might a solution look like? Which I think is doing two things, right? One, it helps us to sharpen our thinking a fair amount, right? There's, like, a thing which we can react to as a group, which is not as amorphous as an interview. Like, a sharp, pointy thing we can react to. The second is we're going to start showing this to people. And not everybody we talk to is going to be, like, our final audience we're building for. That's okay. They can still, like, give us thoughts and give us feedback. And it'll probably change the tenor of the conversations we're having with them. And that's also okay, too, right? We're going to learn different kinds of things than we would in the absence of this. JORDYN: Yeah. And that is super exciting. And then the other side of that coin becomes feasibility questions. So, this thing that we're imagining, how would we build it? Can we build it? What do we need in order to build it? And so, those conversations are really starting to fire up as we start to imagine a solution. DAWN: I know there's a really awesome blog post to come from Jordyn that I reviewed [inaudible 22:27] JORDYN: Wow. Public nudging. DAWN: [laughs] JORDYN: I'm late with this blog post, and I'm being publicly nudged. This is so intense; you're right. DAWN: [laughs] But it's so relevant to exactly what y'all have been talking about. JORDYN: I know. I know. [laughs] DAWN: So, [crosstalk 22:40] retroactively point everyone to it. It's really good stuff. JORDYN: How would you state the problem, Josh, if anyone out there has the problem? JOSH: The problem we're looking at is people who have a hard time managing their social network in general but their professional social network in particular. You know, that might be, you know there's people you wish you were keeping in touch with, but you just forget to keep in touch with them. Or, you know, you tell somebody to do something in some thread, or some channel, on some social network, or some direct message, and you just kind of forget about that because you don't go back to it. Or maybe, you know, you're making friends on Discord. You're making friends on Slack. You're making friends out in the real world, but you don't actually, like, add them into your LinkedIn, something like that. Somebody who's having problems like that that's actually done something about it. Did you go and build yourself, like, a spreadsheet? A baby CRM in Notion, or in Coda, or in Airtable? Do you search out a purpose-built tool? You know, if you think you've ever tried, whether you've been successful or not, to actually solve this problem for yourself, I'd love to talk to you, or Jordyn would love to talk to you. Dawn would probably love to talk to you also. But reach out to any of us any way you can. I got a super Googleable SEO-compatible name, as does Jordyn. So, like, reach out to one of us, and we'd love to chat. DAWN: Awesome. Well, thanks, y'all. This has been wonderful, as always. And if anybody has questions for the team, feel free to comment on the post afterwards. And we'll see y'all next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

(Christine and Josh) One of the most powerful popes of the Middle Ages, Innocent III made sure to have his hand in everything from religious wars like the Crusades to political squabbles with kings. Here, Josh and Christine take a look at some of the most interesting points in the life of the controversial pontiff. 

This Episodes Questions: Hey guys, I'm a hobbyist and new to 3d printing. I have the budget right now for the P1P w/ AMS and would be able to save a bit for the X1C w/ AMS. I'm really debating between the 2 as I primarily print only PLA & PETG, and don't really see myself needing an enclosure for some of the other filamen types. I'm interested in multi-material printing, speed, and not having to worry about leveling. I'd love to save some money by getting the P1P w/ AMS, but don't know if it's worth it to have the LiDar and some of the other bells & whistles that the X1-Carbon offers. Would love your input, thanks! Josh  One thing I've always struggled with when designing new parts and fixtures is getting tolerances right, whether it be for a loose, sliding fit; push fit, or even creating a hole that a screw will go into and cut its own threads. Is there a general formula for sizing based off of the type of fit? Brendon Filament temps - When I first started printing I finally learned the correct settings for the original spool of PLA that I got. I got a new spool of PLA from a different company and just left the temp settings the same thinking it'd get the same result and I can't get anything to stick. How do you guys go about finding the optimal temperature settings for a new spool? Thanks for the great podcast! Josh Another question I was thinking about that I would love to hear your opinions about is bed adhesion, Glue Stick vs a Brim. Slicers are starting to default to autobrim, which I think is really weird.

01. Ken@Work - Jamaica Funk (Original Mix)[Over The Top] 202202. Dames Brown, Andrés, Amp Fiddler, Louie Vega, Josh Milan - What Would You Do? (Expansions NYC Extended Dub Vocal)[Defected] 202203.  Soulfuledge - Up All Night [Nyte Music] 202304.  Frank McComb, Laroye - Listen To Your Heart (Laroye Remix)[Making Moves] 202205.  Miguel Migs, Lisa Shaw - Promises (Migs Piano Love Extended Vocal) [Soulfuric Deep] 202206.  FLIP-DA-FUNK - Real Love (Original Mix)[Disco Down] 202207.  Prefix One, Chidi Mayamiko - Organic Approach [Househead London] 202308.  Josh One, Aloe Blacc, Demetrius Rhymes - Sacrifice (Terry Hunter Club Mix)[Boomnote Music] 202309. Prefix One, JaeLee Small - I Know You (Booker T Vocal Mix)[Househead London] 202210.  Demarkus Lewis - This Woman (Original Mix)[Ohmelya Music] 202311.   Neil Pierce- Rok Da Riddim (Original Mix)[Rhemi Trax] 202212.  N.W.N. - Sunshine [Panthera Limited] 202313.  Jimpster, Mavhungu - Tribute [Freerange] 2023

Rona Ray & Deep Soul Syndicate | All I Need |Original Mix|Booker T f. Sheree Hicks | Rescue Me |Booker T Main Mix|Ralf GUM f. Monique Bingham | Take Me To My Love |Ralf GUM Main Mix|DJ Fudge & Chinua Hawk | Who's Gonna Save The World |Vocal|Markus Enochson f. Jocelyn Mathieu | Feeling Fine |Frankie Feliciano Vocal Mix|Corey Holmes | Let You GoParis Cesvette f. Hannah Khemoh | Better |Extended Vocal Mix|Josh One, Demetrius Rhymes & Aloe Blacc | Sacrifice |Terry Hunter Club Mix|Audiowhores & Groove Assassin | Lifts Me Up |AW + GA 2005 Rub Up|Dames Brown f. Andres & Amp Fiddler | What Would You Do? |Expansions NYC Extended Dub Vocal|AirBorn Gav & Hurricane | Work |Atjazz Extended Remix|Hallex M f. David Morin | U Do It 4 Me |DJ Spinna's Journey Remix|Ken@Work | Change your Mind |Original Mix|Lil Louis | Fable |Frankie Knuckles' Directors Cut Classic Club Mix|Longzo Mofunk f. Thami Jay | He Knows My NameDav Risen | Not By Might |Original Mix|Elements Of Life f. Lisa Fischer | Draggin' My Heels |Dub Harness|Martino | Ankh |83 West Retouch|Selomi f. Abdul Kharim | Makhelwani |FNX Omar Remix|Mtsepisto | The Land Of Africa Joi Cardwell | Soul To Bare |Miles Blacklove Ecxtended Amapiano Rework|

Aaron K, Gray,Josh One, Atjazz, Peacey, Piers Kirwan, Low Steppa, Queen Rose, PlastikPeopleDigitalBad Colours, Ezel, Red Met, Trinidad Deep. Just a few of the banging artist on this weeks show.

Today on the Ether we have the AstroAMA discussing Astroport on Injective. You'll hear from Deebs DeFi, José Maria Macedo, Eric Chen, Mirza, Stefan, Josh ONE, Jacob, and more! Recorded on January 20th 2023. If you enjoy the music at the end of the episodes, you can find the albums streaming on Spotify, and the rest of your favorite streaming platforms. Check out Project Survival, Virus Diaries, and Plan B wherever you get your music. Thank you to everyone in the community who supports TerraSpaces.

Join us as we talk about creative writing and inspiring our children with Josh Davidson. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors   We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings:   Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase   Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class    Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription  LTWs    Maren: Warby Parker   Angela: All You Can Ever Know by Nicole Chung   Connect with us!  Visit our website  Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren  Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com   Complete Episode Transcript   [00:00:00]  [00:00:08] Maren: Hi, we're Maren and Angela of homeschool, unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters. Together with our master's degree and 20 years combined homeschooling. We are here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic  [00:00:26] Angela: lens. [00:00:27] At Homeschool Unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourselves credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self-care, listening to and elevating LGBTQ plus and PAC Voices.  [00:00:47] Maren: We are here to encourage and support you. [00:00:51] Whether you're a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether all of your kids are at home or all of your kids are in [00:01:00] school or somewhere in between. Wherever you are on your journey, we're the voice in your head telling you, you're doing great, and so are your.  [00:01:08] Angela: This is episode 1 95, Sparking Inspiration with Josh Davidson. [00:01:14] We are gonna talk about creative writing and inspiring our children, and then we'll end like we always do with our lt. Ws are loving this  [00:01:22] Maren: week. Yes. And we wanted to give you a quick reminder that a. Few. We have a few new exciting updates to our podcast this year. Number one, we are including transcripts with all of our episodes. [00:01:35] So if you look at the show notes, you're gonna see transcripts. So you can check through everything we've said and if you wanna go back and get some of the details of what we talked about. Find it  [00:01:44] Angela: there. Yes. And those are in your right, in your podcast app. We also have them on our website.  [00:01:49] Maren: Yes. Which episode? [00:01:50] Yep. Yep. So that's at homeschool fine.com/episodes. So it'll be right in there. And then also we are also publishing our podcast [00:02:00] episodes. In video this season. And so you can go to YouTube and find our channel homeschool owner, Finded, and we even have a playlist specifically for the fall 2022 season. [00:02:11] And we have our videos. You're gonna see us on screen recording our episodes.  [00:02:16] Angela: Yeah. So that's very exciting. If you prefer that method. Yeah, you can get that there. Okay. So we are starting something new this season where we are bringing you three new sponsors for the entire fall season. We were very intentional about who we chose for sponsors. [00:02:29] We appreciate you taking the time to learn about them because we think they're really good companies. Also, they're giving discount codes, so you wanna listen for those. We are so happy to work hard on this podcast, and we appreciate the financial support in making  [00:02:42] Maren: it. Here at Homeschool under fine. You know we're all about making your life easier. [00:02:47] That's why we are excited to introduce you to Night Zookeeper. Is your child a reluctant writer? Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, then night [00:03:00] zookeeper may be just what you're looking for. Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 years old that uses a gamified and creative approach to help keep kids engaged and focus on developing awesome reading and writing skills all while having fun at the same time. [00:03:19] Some of the features we love included include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutor. And the super safe community pages where children can work with each other and learn together. If Night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show notes. [00:03:42] And when you, when you register, you'll get a seven day risk free trial as well as a huge 50% off annual subscription. That's a great deal  [00:03:51] Angela: if you ask. I always had the toughest time finding a curriculum that was aligned with our values. Enter Blossom and [00:04:00] Root. Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum, focusing on creativity, science, nature, literature, and the arts. [00:04:09] Blossom and Root has been gently encouraging and supporting homeschool families around the globe since 2016. Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the future. Additionally, a three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development as of August, 2022. [00:04:32] Volume one is available for purchase, and volume two is available on pre. All profits from this history curriculum. A River of voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. You can find samples, scope, and sequences and information about each of their levels online@blossomandwrit.com. [00:04:54] You can also find them on Instagram at Blossom and Root. Blossom. Andre has [00:05:00] created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% off your purchase.  [00:05:09] Maren: Our kids have taken so many different out school classes over the years, which is why partnering with them was a no brainer. We know that kids love to learn. Kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future, they create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. [00:05:32] Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their interests, connect with diverse peers from around the world, and take an active role in leading their learning out. School has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for you and your family, and join us as we set [00:06:00] learning. [00:06:01] Sign up today at out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined, and get up to 20% off your first class when you enroll with the code unrefined.  [00:06:13] Angela: We are excited for our main topic today, which is sparking inspiration and Creativity with Josh Davidson. Josh Davidson is the creator and managing director of Night Zookeeper, a magical inspirational brand where children discover and create imaginative animals. These animals join an interactive world and can feature in his story books on on Anani animated series on Spy Kids. In a collectible card game and an online learning program that helps children with reading and writing and unlocks their creativity, Josh is a passionate public speaker on games, education, and creativity. He has spoken at many international conferences. Additionally, he has been interviewed across BBC stations in the United Kingdom. [00:06:54] Please enjoy our conversation with Josh. [00:06:58] Maren: I want [00:07:00] to invite our guest, Josh from the Night Zookeeper here today. Thank you so much for being with us, Josh.  [00:07:08] Josh: Oh, thank you so much for having me.  [00:07:10] Maren: I'm wondering if you could just tell us, just start out by telling us a little bit about yourself and just your background.  [00:07:17] Josh: Absolutely. So, yes. So I'm Josh. [00:07:19] I'm the author of the Night Zookeeper Storybook series and the creator of night zookeeper.com, which is a website based on the the theme, if you like, of the night zookeeper stories but is an interactive website. Children are inspired to fall in love with writing and get lots of reading practice. [00:07:42] And we also help with grammar and spelling, et cetera, to sort of really convert the most reluctant. You know, there's a few of them out there, the most reluctant of young readers and writers into the authors of tomorrow. I just made up that line, but it sounds good. The authors of, of tomorrow. [00:07:57] Maren: I really love that. I really love that, and [00:08:00] I love that you have that vision. We'll talk more about that in just a little bit, but at first I wanna ask you like, how did you come up with this idea of the night zookeeper? It just, it sounds like the ideal thing for a reluctant reader or writer, and I'm wondering what, what brought you here? [00:08:16] What, what made you create.  [00:08:18] Josh: Sure. So I mean, obviously with all things in life there's a, there's an element of serendipity I heard. So during my studies I traveled to Australia. So as you say, I'm based in the uk but I did an exchange in Australia, in Melbourne, and I heard whilst I was there that their zoo was open at night. [00:08:39] And obviously I, now, I think zoos, you know, across the world, some of zoos often open, like there's a night zoo in Singapore and London Zoo late, so there's a, this is a thing. Oh wow. But at the time I didn't know anything about it. Right. And being a strange young man hearing about a night zoo I so immediately was. [00:08:56] My head was filled with time traveling elephants and [00:09:00] buying giraffes that could turn invisible. And Oh, cool. I had a little notebook and I started to write my story about this strange zoo and the sort of things that you would encounter there. Right, right. But I finished my, I was doing my, my fine art degree at the time. [00:09:14] I then did a Master's in Digital Art, and one of the modules that I was studying was called Collaborative Practices. And it was about using the internet to collaborate with others. So, you know, kind of like we're, we're doing now, right? Talking over the, the, the magical power of the internet. And it was different things that you could use the internet for to collaborate. [00:09:34] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. anyway. In trying to work out what I was going to do as part of my studies into that module, I was flicking through my notepad of ideas and I came across my short story that I'd written about the night suit, and I realized that although my story was okay, what was really lovely about the story was that it was a. [00:09:59] [00:10:00] Fundamentally of what magical animals could exist in a zoo at nighttime. Right. And not only was I as an author, you know, or a writer or whatever, I was inspired to write something, but I was pretty sure that other people would be just to tell them, you know, that that power of the night, Right. It's kind of, it always been. [00:10:18] My childhood. I think it's a very human thing that things can exist in nighttime. All the way back to the teddy bear picnic, the thing teddy bear picnic. Oh yes. No. Yeah. But the thing is gonna happen. And so yeah, I I turned this short story into a collaborative project, which was based around a website where anybody could log on and create new magical animals that would live in my fictional night suit. [00:10:41] And my best friend Paul, Hudson, who is my co-founder in Night Sweet Keeper, was a primary school teacher and he said, Josh, I want to do this with my kids in class. Yes. I said, That sounds awesome. Mm-hmm. . So he convinced his head teacher to invite me [00:11:00] in. So I came in as an artist and we ran this project where we, I, you know, I, I lied to children, which I've now made a professional career. [00:11:08] And I told them that I was a night zookeeper in a magical night zoo. And I looked after these spying giraffes and time traveling elephants. But the, The night zoo needed more animals. And we were wondering whether these, you know, these kids wanted to come up with some animals to live in the zoo, and boy did they, they absolutely went for it. [00:11:29] And it simultaneously showed me just how. Uncreative. I am because I created a draft that could turn invisible, whereas they had created a dragon fish crossed with a ham sandwich. You know, like they, they, they took things to this, this level that, That's amazing. Creativity. That was like, okay, I, I, yeah. [00:11:48] I bow down before the and, and yeah, that's where we are now. Like with that's cool. Website. That's basically that idea. That initial sort of engaging assembly, if you like, where you [00:12:00] tell kids, this is what we're gonna do through, through digital media, and then let them go for it and, you know, Yeah. [00:12:06] It's doing a pretty much a massive disservice to the website to say that that's what it does, because it's huge and, you know, we're throwing everything but the kitchen sink it, Getting kids to fall in love with reading and writing, but at the, at the very heart of. It's that it's this story that, and the power of storytelling and how that can sort of spark an individual child's imagination and how you can then channel that imagination into creative output like writing. [00:12:32] Maren: I love that because I do think when we, when we approach learning as , we, we have to do this, You have to get to this level. Then our kids often. Get to that level and maybe that's it. Maybe that's all they do. Or maybe they even struggle to get to this certain level. But when you come in as a night zookeeper, , and you're like, I want you to think of, imagine these animals, you know, the limit. [00:12:56] There's no limit. They go, they go everywhere with [00:13:00] that. Absolutely.  [00:13:00] Josh: You can see the brains, like you can see the sparks flying. Right. And what's wonderful is it's such. A UNFI for all the kids, cuz you've got kids of all different ability levels. Some totally. Some, some engaged in the activities, some not. [00:13:12] Some with, you know, have been spending the morning reading about the how a human eye works and others that have been reading about animals on a farm. Yeah. But you put them together and they've all going to, they're all gonna express themselves. They're all gonna create something. Is using their, their brain in a really interesting way, as I mentioned, that they were destroying me. [00:13:31] But then they can all relate to each other. Of course, they were, they were, yeah. Kids, 12 year old kids talking to six year old kids about their animals. Mm-hmm. Like that's wonder. So, so we see this with siblings in homeschool. So you get the older kid and the younger kids, some of the playing together for, and learning, playing together. [00:13:46] And it's, it's a wonderful way to To, to sort of, to sort of, in a way sort of forget about some of those levels that we try and think about. Yes. And because there's something so hu it's just [00:14:00] human. That's what it is. It's just human. Ultimately it's about being human and using our, you know, the gifts that we've been given and seeing how, where we can take them. [00:14:08] Maren: Exactly. And so that's, you kind of answered this question, which is why do you think creative writing is a good way. To start at such a young age. You're talking about very young kids here. So, I mean, I think you kind of answered that, but if there's anything else you wanna add, why do you think it's good to start creative writing at such a young age? [00:14:27] Josh: Oh, I like, yeah. I mean, I think that like with any anything that's innately human as a skill storytelling is. You know, the to human skill, it's right at the core of what we do and how to survive in this world, and. Yeah. Writing is, is an extension of that. But what the tools that we've built on my zookeeper, you know, of course you, the most common scenario you get with kids is that their, their brains run a million miles ahead of their, their technical ability. [00:14:59] [00:15:00] That is so true. Yes. Tell and imagining and their thinking and, and getting those thoughts and down and sort of structuring them is, is a huge challenge. But it is like zookeeper as a platform. It's built to scaffold that process so, You're not giving kids a blank piece of paper and saying, Tell me everything about this creature you've invented. [00:15:21] The way that it unfolds is, you know, you asked to draw the creature that you're imagining, then you're asked what its name is. Then you are asked, maybe it's where does it live or what does it eat? Or does it have any special abilities? And each question is, you know, almost delivered like a, a chat between yourself and the animals and the animals kind of learning about themselves. [00:15:41] And this. Means that it never feels to the kid like a daunting thing. Absolutely. It never feels like something that they can't do. And, and so from the youngest ages, they're, they're constantly having this interaction with the program, but they're also having it with themselves and anyone that's doing it [00:16:00] with, I mean, that's the other thing about, Yes, this particular experience, like it's a lovely way for a parent to engage with their child or as I mentioned, like an older sibling, to engage with the younger sibling because suddenly, You know, you are drawing each ideas out of each other and you are realizing like, Oh, where, where did you think of that? [00:16:17] Like, where did that idea come from? But like, Oh, maybe you must have heard, you know, grandpa say something about this the other day. So you're bringing that into it and it's like, Oh, this is really interesting. Where, where your mind works. Because that's where, you know, creativity is at the core of how our  [00:16:30] Maren: brains work. [00:16:31] I think that is so, you are so right about that, and I love that you're scaffolding it like that, or, and also just making maybe the most challenging parts very small. Like, do this one little thing that's challenging and actually it's so motivating because it's not like, do this one little thing that's challenging and you don't get any reward from it. [00:16:49] No, you do this one little challenging thing and then it, it, it adds to your, you know, You know, this world that you're creating and feels in  [00:16:59] Josh: your mind's so good. [00:17:00] Gives you, Yeah. So in terms of that as well, like we do this scaffolding process, not just for the younger kids, but for the older kids as well. [00:17:06] Cause you do absolutely find that you get a lot of older kids who have been turned off writing. They don't like it. Yes. They don't wanna do it. Yeah. And feels hard. It's one of the few subjects actually that we've really struggled. Globally to sort of gamify and make feel like it's fun, but not what Zuki does. [00:17:20] By doing this sort of building up of questions and answers is at the end of that process, if you are an older kid, we show you what you've done. Okay. Show you. Ooh, I like that now. I just wrote all of that without realizing it. Like here's a big, I'm doing it visually. Of course no one can see , but I've got a,  [00:17:36] Maren: I see it. [00:17:37] It's really big.  [00:17:38] Josh: An elephant sized head of writing. Yes. On the page and the kids. Even though it's just right at the back of their subconscious, they're like, Yeah, yeah, I can do that now. So whenever they're, you know, they, they see other pieces, people's writing, if they've struggled with writing stamina because they, they typically write a couple of sentences and then it's, they just don't want to write anymore. [00:17:58] Right. They're bored, [00:18:00] they're struggling. It's hard, like part of it is like with everything in life as you feel that you can do it once you've. And we are saying, Hey, you know what? You've done this. Here it is. And then the next time they come, they might not need, the older kids might not need that scaffolding approach. [00:18:15] They might wanna jump straight into that work classic kind of word processor setting because they feel like they can do it now. Yeah, you're gonna have that writing stamina. But yeah, we always provide that as a yeah, as a realization for the kids ultimately that they are.  [00:18:29] Maren: That is so great because it just builds that self confidence and their identity. [00:18:35] As you know, a lot of times our kids don't even, can't even identify as a writer, even though they certainly have all the ideas, but we just need, you know, maybe just need a few tools and then it can go, you know, wherever. You know, they have freedom to do so many things with just a few things. So Good. It's so hard though. [00:18:56] It, so many of us, especially homeschool parents [00:19:00] are feeling frustrated about reading and writing, to be honest. Right. I mean, it just, it feels like sometimes it feels like we're slogging through things. It feels like we're requiring things more than enjoying things. And so what are your tips for a, for us , for us parents at home who are like feeling frustrated right now? [00:19:20] Josh: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's it's a difficult position to be in because kids can be stubborn and Yeah. You know, once they've made up their mind about a subject or an area that they're like, Okay, no, I, I don't do that. That's not, you know, I don't like that. Or that, you know, even to the point, you know, you have kids crying when they're put in front of a piece of paper, they want to write like it breaking and they've got to that point in their brain where they're like, This is something I can't do. [00:19:44] Yes. And I guess that's the first thing to realize is that ultimately this, this is a, a feeling that's inside them that needs to be, be worked through, needs to be worked out. And of course I would say this, but no, zookeeper's a really good way of doing that because it's yeah, it's a game [00:20:00] and I, you know, whether it's night zookeeper or something else, right. [00:20:02] You need to find a game, which has a different element to it than pure writing. And you need to show the child, the, the writing part, the reading part of the writing part of that game is something that they can do because they're not focused on it. They're not thinking, This is what I'm doing. Right, Right. [00:20:20] I'm writing, they're thinking. Right, right, right. I need. I need to beat my parents at this board game, which involves a bit of writing or reading, or I need to beat my kid, you know, Or I want to create something really beautiful. There's a painting for my, my, my mom's fridge. But I'm, but then mom's asked me to give a title for it and maybe like, just write down a few things so I, she can read, read about what, what's into this castle. [00:20:43] It's just, yeah, they need, they're gonna need a breakthrough moment, I guess. That's what I would say. I don't think. You're gonna have success, you know, looking at the traditional ways of doing this. Right, right. [00:21:00] Classic sort of systems that exist. Yeah. Recognizing, made up mind and adapting the approach.  [00:21:07] Maren: I love that. [00:21:08] Yep. That's so true. It seems like a lot of times we, we definitely. Homeschool parents, us, we focus on the semantics and the, the actual like details of the, I don't know, might be punctuation or handwriting or capital, things like that, that we are, I mean, we can really focus on those things and then it gets, it becomes more about that. [00:21:33] Rather than, and what, what I hear you saying is our, the kids, our kids' strengths are often in their ideas, right? In their imagination. And the possibilities in the unreal , you know, this is this whole, they, you know, there can be a whole world. That's where their strengths lie. I feel like. And I feel like with your program, there's so much like we, you build on the strengths [00:22:00] and the other stuff kind of comes along with it. [00:22:04] I think so. But it's not the focus always. It's not like the thing they have to do.  [00:22:08] Josh: Exactly right. I think, I think a lot of it is if we're talking about you know, upskilling mm-hmm. or if you have a child that you know, will write but writes terribly Yes. And hates being paroled into doing the kind of the classic practice mm-hmm. [00:22:21] And, and editing and redrafting. Or elements within Zuki that help with that as well. So yes. First of all, we're trying to get 'em to write lots. Then anything that they're writing is part of this game is coming through to a tutor. So this isn't you, this isn't the parent and the child relationship. [00:22:39] If there's stress building up here, then take that stress away, you know, by giving this piece of work to. You know, a face on the screen could be my face, but probably not one of our, our tutoring team. But their tutoring team's face is going to be coming back on that piece of writing that your, your [00:23:00] child has put together. [00:23:01] Okay? And they're gonna know, they're gonna see the strengths in it, but they're also gonna see the weaknesses and they're gonna craft a comment that will nudge. As, as enthusiastically as possible, your child toward better practices with the writing. Wow. So that is the, that is the key because worst all it matters in some, to some children it matters that this is somebody who cares. [00:23:24] That's not. Their parents. This is someone else in the world. Exactly like that can make a massive, just a, a switch of, you know, if you have kids in a traditional school system, even like sometimes it's the teacher and the parent kind of doesn't count anymore, but there's someone else out there who's saying, this is good. [00:23:42] This is good. And you are? Yeah. Yeah. I feel quite good about that. Then I feel quite good that I think it's good. Oh, but they've said I can improve it if I just check that spell for that bit or, or I learn, remember to start using a few more paragraphs. I can do that. Cause I know what a paragraph is. Cause I just watched a video of it on that previous thing that Zuki sent me. [00:23:59] Yeah. And then I'm [00:24:00] gonna, and, and those kind of skill based. You know, real sort of core curriculum points that every young writer has to learn. I mean, it's, it, it comes back to like reading ultimately, like you just need your kids to read, right? Mm-hmm. , I mean, fundamentally. Yep. Kids will learn to read if they're reading, the more they read, the better at reading they're gonna get. [00:24:20] Right. Exactly. Your kid picks up a soccer magazine like, and they're reading great.  [00:24:25] Maren: Right. The more they enjoy reading, the more they're going to read, the more they're gonna choose to read.  [00:24:30] Josh: Exactly, and it's exactly the same with writing. Exactly. The more they're gonna enjoy writing, the more they're gonna get over any inner turmoil they have about writing, and then they're gonna, all those other things you're worried about, all those other things curriculums, tell you to worry about. [00:24:45] They will. They will come. Yes, they will come. Because you're in the same way that when you read and you read and you read, you pick up the the words and the skills that you need to Yeah. To, to go to new places.  [00:24:56] Maren: I love that you mentioned that there's this personal [00:25:00] tutor or a feed, a personal feedback that our, that every child gets when they, when they use night zookeeper, because I do, you're right. [00:25:07] Like it's so good to have somebody else besides your parent or your teacher work with you sometimes, especially in writing, I think because it is so personal and it almost feels a little vulnerable, even if. Even if it is about an animal that doesn't really exist, it's something that's been in your mind. [00:25:24] And you know, and to have your parent maybe give a little criticism of that can really be tough for a child. And so even just a little encouragement from someone else, you know, that's a little bit removed, but also very encouraging. Mm-hmm. is very encouraging. Yes. It seems, it seems like the best. [00:25:43] Situation, .  [00:25:45] Josh: One other, There's one other even better scenario that happens on my zookeeper. Ooh. And we encourage the kids to comment on other kids writer. Oh, that's awesome. So they, and we've trained them up, you know, through the system to leave positive book constructive [00:26:00] comments on other kids writing. [00:26:00] And it all goes through the tutors. So everything gets, you know, moderated and checked. And then, then if it's a nice constructive comment, it will appear on your kid writing from another student. Wow. And that, I'm, I'm yet to meet a kid who hasn't loved that actually. Like, there, there, there. You know, there's, and kids the best at being sensitive, like adults. [00:26:21] Like we, we try and be sensitive to our, to kids, right? But kids just kind and get other kids. They kind of know that they're all kind of in it together and Yeah. Yeah. They say it, they phrase it so nicely, like, Oh I laughed this piece. It was amazing. I, I'm gonna dream about this story you wrote tonight. [00:26:37] Of course. Just so you know I think you've missed a full stop at the end of that sentence. Yes, yes. Keep writing. I can't wait to read your next story. I'm your biggest fan and say, Wow, okay. I, I could write that. Like, the kid that receives, that's gonna be like, I'm adding that full stop and I'm writing something to mine and  [00:26:53] Maren: I'm gonna keep my mind, Yeah. [00:26:54] I'm gonna keep writing because that is so powerful. That is so [00:27:00] powerful. And you don't get that normally. You just don't get that experience. At such a young age. I mean, a lot of people don't get that unless you're in a creative writing program. Like you probably went through and had, you know, some kind of a group, a writing group or whatever. [00:27:14] But this is amazing and kids deserve to hear and feel that about their own ideas and writing.  [00:27:21] Josh: Absolutely. And you know, that's where you get those transformations. That's where you get a kid. You know, where we hear from parents who would scream and cry and hate, hate the idea of writing and they start using nights of Cuba cuz they've been told it's a game And Right. [00:27:35] Do see around it and before you know it, they're not They're not even worried about the, the game aspects. So n Uber has a sort of a gamified curriculum and some of them, we call them challenges and they're the closest to kind of like your, your kind of classic interactive challenge where you're like dragging and dropping work. [00:27:54] Or you are learning new pieces of vocabulary. All, all that stuff is, is there and, and it [00:28:00] follows you know, the classic, like in the, in the UK that's the called the National Curriculum And America, you know, you have your Common Core and there's the International Baccalaureate, you know, the, the interactive challenges and games on nights. [00:28:11] So you keep the, the sort of, as I say, you kind of expect from digital products. Now they're all. And kids when they first join, they kinda wanna play those. They want to be in the bit, which kind looks more gamey. Sure. But the kids. All kind of reach this point where they realize the real fun of Nisu Keep is taking all the stuff that they've been learning in those games and producing the writing, and then getting those comments and feeling like they've got a no idea, a new idea for a story that they really want to tell. [00:28:43] And they want people to be able to read that story. So they're gonna write it on my to keep, Yes. They're gonna write that idea that they've had for a story, and that's where you get the That's where when I said that thing about like the authors of tomorrow, like that is. What's happening that literally tells what's happening. [00:28:58] Maren: And it sounds like they're authors of [00:29:00] today too, because they're getting Well, absolutely. Basically, essentially published if they want to. Right? Well,  [00:29:05] Josh: they're, they're, they're published. Well, and it's another little segue actually. Nice one that so I still write the night, so keeper books and I write them with the community. [00:29:13] So I come up with. Sort of general themes of the stories and I have a plot and I kind of know where I want the stories to go. Yeah. But then I come up with a whole bunch of questions and I put them onto the website. So kids come up with characters, they come up with jokes. Mm-hmm. , plot points, locations, and they write these. [00:29:28] Again, it's a reason to write, They write this stuff onto the website. Yes. And, and the best ideas, you know, we credit the credit the kids in the books. I've even done book signings where I've been set next to kids who have contributed towards the, the story. So Awesome. Yeah, they can, Not only can they get themselves published, but they can be published. [00:29:45] Published if they can . Yeah.  [00:29:46] Maren: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. That's so awesome. I was just gonna ask too, so you mentioned you, so you have these books and this, that was really the inspiration for the, this whole program. Is it important for. The [00:30:00] families to get the books as well and make sure they read those before they start the program. [00:30:04] I mean,  [00:30:04] Josh: I, I'm, I'm obviously very biased to the, to the books, but No, no, you absolutely don't. The, the story is baked into the website. You know, you're gonna meet the characters, you're gonna go on an adventure. Yeah, Yeah. But it's all very self-contained. But if you've got a kid that struggles with reading and writing mm-hmm. [00:30:21] and of course I'm a, I'm, I'm a big book person as my overcrowded shelves at home will attest. You know, I think there's something very magical about a kid holding a book. Absolutely. And I that it's, it is a great way to compliment the learning. So yeah. Members of people who sign up tonight, Cuba get a pretty decent discount as well on, on getting. [00:30:40] Maren: And that's awesome. It is. You're right. There is something cool about having a physical book these days. You know, especially on a, with a digital, there's, everything's digital including this program. So it's kind of cool to make it tangible for them. There are some kids, especially younger kids, who really, that makes it feel  [00:30:54] Josh: real. [00:30:55] I, I agree. And I, I think that it's, it's yours, you know, when there's a [00:31:00] physical book Yeah. Take that extra care. There's something, you know, and this is something that I think that the world will, will find its balance between mm-hmm. , what digital enables and what the physical is so natural to us as physical beings. [00:31:15] And I feel like Zuki is a great example of where I think we're adding value. To traditional offline play where, you know, the kid can sit and paint a picture of an animal and then take onto the website if they want. They can write on Absolutely. If we produce monthly resources where, you know, you can print out, print them out, and write offline and practice your handwriting. [00:31:35] And all of these aspects are very important in developing writing. And again, that's all, all part of the experience because I think that digital is incredible. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . But sometimes it puts us in slightly. Alien positions, right. Human beings. I mean, I still think it's, it's hilarious that the, the kids playroom for the last 20 years has been their dad's study or [00:32:00] Wednesday , you know, that kind of like, go and sit in a dark room in front of a screen like that. [00:32:04] They should be out. Right. And we'll get, we'll get there again, like, I'm pretty confident that these kind of hybridized tools that, and, you know, augmented reality and all this kind of stuff is going to mm-hmm. , reenable us to play away from. You know, screen pure, screen based situations and Yeah. But in the meantime, I think it's about balance and it's about having mm-hmm. [00:32:25] if you can sit and read a physical book, brilliant. If you can print out these resources and use phy, you know, physical resources to practice handwriting and do drawings and things on and, and aspects of the program offline, then great. But then, It. Yeah. We're in a situation where it's silly not to use all the benefits of technology as well. [00:32:42] Maren: Absolutely. And I think the best, the best programs, the best online programs, I think inspire you to do things offline too. And I think that's what your program definitely does. Like, you could, you, you would easily be inspired to go paint a picture or go just do some creative playing. Right. Role playing. [00:32:58] I mean, you know, all that [00:33:00] kinda stuff can, can be inspired from your program, so that is really  [00:33:03] Josh: awesome. Actually. I think that was one of the reasons why I ended up. Starting the business and taking it as far as I did. We were saying but I think before we started recording, but like how started with a, my co-founder was a primary school teacher working in schools, and he invited me into his school to run the first night Zuki project. [00:33:21] And at lunchtime, having me, you know, lied to the children and saying, I'm a night zookeeper and I look after magic animals. We went out into the playground at lunchtime and all the kids were running around pretending to be night zookeepers and all match animals and playing. And it was, it was such a moving and compelling experience for me that I was sort of convinced at that point that more kids in the world needed to, to have this. [00:33:46] Maren: Absolutely. I, yeah, I'm so excited for everyone who gets this program and can you just let us know how we can find you and how we can sign.  [00:33:55] Josh: So it's night zookeeper.com as in nighttime and [00:34:00] zookeeper. And you know, from there there's a, there's a parent page. That's your effect effectively, that's the homeschool page where you, you go through and Yeah, yeah. [00:34:08] Sign up to the service. There's a free seven day trial to give it a go and see what your kids think. Yeah.  [00:34:12] Maren: So we have a very special link that you need to use and it'll be in our show notes that you can you can use and it'll give you a huge 50% off an annual subscription, which is awesome. And you still get the seven day trial too. [00:34:25] So Wonderful. It seems like a win, win, win, win for, for everyone. So, Absolutely. Thank you so much, Josh. We really appreciate that you joined us.  [00:34:34] Josh: Well, thank you so much for having me. It was really nice to speak to you and yeah, hopefully speak again soon. Definitely. [00:34:40] Maren: Let's move on to our loving this week. L t Ws. Yes. All right. Angela, do you wanna get  [00:34:49] Angela: started? I would love to. All right, Go for it. I have a book to share. Yeah. Yeah. It's a memoir, which Nice. My favorite genre. Yes. This is called All You Can [00:35:00] Ever Know by Rebecca Chung. Ooh. Rebecca is an adoptee and she is Korean, and she was adopted by a white family. [00:35:09] Mm. And so she tells the story of her childhood in that context, and she grew up in a small town and so she kind of always wonder. About herself and her identity, and she was very curious about her birth family. And so she tells about her curiosity. About that and just how that affected her growing up. [00:35:32] And then as she became ad an adult, she decided to try and find her birth family. And so she tells that story. It is so well written. She's a writer. So it's super well written, super inspiring. I think if you If adoption has affected your family. Mm-hmm. , especially transracial adoption. I think you would probably love to read this book. [00:35:52] But I think even for anybody like Yeah, it does, it has not affected my family, but I really, really learned a lot [00:36:00] and, well, I enjoyed reading this book. It was captivating. I listened on audio. Wow. And I listened in two days. I mean, I blew through it. What? I was just, I wanted to find out what would happen. [00:36:10] Yeah. Like, is she gonna find her birth family? What's gonna happen? Cuz I kind of figured that was coming and so it like, kept me interested the whole way through. So I think I think you should definitely read it if this is like, if this peaks your interest at all, I  [00:36:23] Maren: think you would love it. The fact that you read it in two days or listen to in two days makes me think it was definitely well written, obviously. [00:36:31] Oh yeah. Yeah. And then also the story was just deriving and then the fact, fact that it's just real. This has really happened and it really happened. Yep. Yeah. That's like a magical trio there, so for sure. That's awesome. Yes. Thank you.  [00:36:43] Angela: What are, yeah, what are you loving, Marin?  [00:36:46] Maren: Okay. I'm loving some, I'm loving something that is not brand new to probably anybody, but it's an i glass store online store. [00:36:54] It's a, and it's called Warby Parker. I'm sure you have, have heard of it. And [00:37:00] maybe you all have glasses from Warby Parker already. I don't know, but I kind of I never thought I really wanted to try war Beer Parker. Number one. We've done online glasses before and I'm like, well, if we're gonna do online glasses, we're gonna go, They're really cheap route, which, you know, there's like zny or whatever. [00:37:16] So we've done that before. And or we're just gonna get glasses in our real life eyeglass store so we can actually try things on and get the actual fit that we really need. And, you know, I'm sure they're much higher quality. That's what I always thought. Enter whereby Parker , you know, like it's, it has been a journey finding glasses for my whole family over the years. [00:37:39] Mm-hmm. and we've tried so many things, but whereby Parker just kind of happened upon us. Because they actually have a physical store in our nearby mall Now They do. Yeah. Which was awesome. So we just walked past it one day and we're like, Well, let's try these on. And they're all the frames. I [00:38:00] mean, not kidding you, in the whole store I fell in love with, I couldn't decide which ones I wanted, number one, number. [00:38:07] They're so cheap. I mean, I don't wanna say cheap, like Inex. I didn't, What I'm saying is cheap, Inexpensive. Yeah. They're actually very high quality and they're awesome. And I just couldn't believe it. They're even for us out of network for our insurance. Uh, But because we can get reimbursed some of the way we, you know, I just, we paid and then sent in receipts and got paid back right away from our insurance, which was, which was awesome. [00:38:31] It ended up being cheaper than getting full coverage at another eyeglass store. Any other, like we, I think I looked at three or four other eyeglass stores in the, in the area. And even with like full insurance coverage whereby Parker was so much cheaper. So much cheaper. Wow, that's amazing. And their customer service is unbeatable. [00:38:54] They're so amazing at customer service. Everybody in the store was like, [00:39:00] became our friends right away. . They just loved us and we loved them and I don't know, we just all connected. We all have this vibe. They just have this vibe and it's just great. And they gave us great feedback on what. What we should look for in glasses for our, you know, for our face shape and things like that. [00:39:16] And so it was just fun. It was actually just like a fun experience, which I have not had before with my  [00:39:21] Angela: family and fighting eyeglasses. That's awesome. That is so awesome. Yes. Yeah. So would you, would you only recommend it going into the store or now that you've done it? That's a good question. Do it online. [00:39:34] Maren: Well, and I know that when you do it online, they do send you like, Pairs of glasses that you can actually try on. Yeah. And then, so, which is great. I think that's also a viable option for sure. Yeah, for sure. You can totally do that. And I would say the other thing is that they make the glasses and send them to you so quickly too. [00:39:53] So if you need glasses quickly, they're, they never, I, I think they don't like maybe Guarantee that they'll come really fast, [00:40:00] but ours came really fast. And then also they have like lots of different lenses that often are super expensive when you upgrade lenses. Especially with like the blue blocking material that protects your eyes from the screens and stuff like that. [00:40:13] Like that can be hundreds of dollars other places and it's. Just so affordable, so affordable at where we park. I just can't believe it. Like,  [00:40:21] Angela: I, I can't believe that either. I, Yeah, I feel like I hit the jackpot. I'm just so, so excited. Well, I'm really glad to have a real world what's the word? [00:40:29] Maren: Endorsement. I don't Endorsement.  [00:40:31] Angela: Yes. A real world endorsement because I have of course heard of them on, on pockets, but those are like ads. So you just, you  [00:40:38] Maren: know. This is an A by the way, this is not an ad.  [00:40:41] Angela: I'm just telling you. It's true. I always, I always I've stayed away from Warby Parker because I thought it would be more expensive, so I'm glad to hear it. [00:40:48] It's actually not, it's  [00:40:49] Maren: actually really not. Really not. And Okay. Yeah. Yep. So I'm super excited to even get more now, . That's great.  [00:40:56] Angela: Yeah. That's great. Thanks for sharing. Yeah. All [00:41:00] right, so thank you everybody for listening, and we wanna say a special thank you to our three sponsors, Blossom and Root Out School and Knight Zoo Zookeeper. [00:41:08] Be sure to check out all their links and coupon codes and stuff in our show. Show notes.  [00:41:13] Maren: This podcast is created and hosted by Angela Sizer and Maren Goerss. We are listener supported. To get extra content and the Back to School summit free with your membership, go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. [00:41:27] Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive book list. Add homeschool unrefined.com/newsletter. You can find Maren on Instagram at Unrefined Maren and at Always Learning With Maren. Find Angela at unrefined Angela.  [00:41:47] [00:42:00] 

Producer Josh breaks NFL news before Adam Schefter, and the NCAA punishes Memphis

It's new years, and I know you have a lot of goals. Listen to this episode to find out how to become the person you need to be to actually achieve what you want! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com Magnetic Marketing ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody. This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. Today's episode, you guys have a chance to listening on a really fun actually interview that Josh Forti and I did today about goal setting and what that looks like. I know that we're... At the time we're recording this, it's almost the new year. And so he asked me the questions about how I set goals. How do I make sure I hit my goals and reach them? And what does that look like? And I was excited because it's actually a topic that I'm writing it sensibly about in my new book. And so anyway, a lot of things are top of mind, and we had some fun with it. It went longer than we thought. And so I had to go fast through some things. Someday maybe I'll do a three or five day or two week, two month long event teaching these topics. But hopefully it gives you a head start to kind of figure out what is you want in life? What kind of goals you want to set for this year, and then how you actually make sure you achieve those. Stuff that's fascinating to me and hopefully you guys will find some cool stuff in as well. And at the end of it, there's assignments, so make sure you do it. And if you do that, in fact, I'd block out two or three hours during this new year's break as you're figuring out what you want to with your life over the next 12 months and go through this audio and then actually do the assignment at the end. And if you that, your chances of hitting that goal will dramatically go up. All right, with that said, we're going to cue up the theme song. And when we get back, you have a chance to listen in on an interview with me and Josh Forti. What's up, everybody. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. Today I'm here once again with Josh Forti, and at the time we're recording this it's a little after Christmas. We're getting ready for the new year and world domination. I think today we're going to be talking about how to focus and goal setting, all that kind stuff. Is that right? Is that the- Josh Forti: Yeah. Today's episodes a good one. I'm so excited for this because I mean, we get to listen to Russell Brunson tell us how he picks his goals, how he's going to plan the world. It's going to be great. Russell: I'm excited too because some of you guys know I'm actually working off and on, just depends on, but I have another book in the works that I'm working on and it's my first personal development book. But for me, personal development's definitely around picking a target and running towards it with definiteness of purpose and trying to accomplish the thing. And so as I've been not... I wrote 200 pages of the book, and I told you this when you were out in Boise. Josh: I know. I'm waiting for my copy, Russell. Russell: And then I said, I hated it. So I got... I didn't hate the book. It's actually good stuff. I'm putting it in the new behind the scenes newsletter. I'm putting the chapters in there. So it's being reused, but I wasn't happy with how it turned out as a book book. And so I'm starting over from scratch and rethinking it all. And so that's the phase I'm in right now. But a lot of it is tied around what we're talking about today, so it should be good. I'm excited for this. Josh: Heck yeah. Awesome. Well, let's kick it off and get started with that note. So whenever we sit down for podcast, I go and it's interesting because now that we are doing so many, normally when I do long-form interviews or because we record in batches, right. Normally when I sit down, I'm just like record go. But you can only do that so many times with somebody before you have to start planning topics ahead a time, right? So I'm on the plane yesterday or a couple days ago, whenever we flew back home, and we got to upgrade to first class for like $47. It was great. I'm there on my computer, just have room. And so I was thinking, walking through the topics that we wanted to cover over the next couple episodes and one that kept coming up and my mind kept coming back to is goal setting. Right? We're sitting here. We're coming to the end of this year. The last two years have really just been crazy, right? Like 2020 was super, super uncertain. 2021 was a little bit more certain, but we all know we're not back to reality yet. Right? With everything. And so I was like, all right, how do you set goals? Not only in the midst of just chaos, but just in general, right? Because there's so many different ways you can think about goals and set goals and do targets and all the different things. And so as we wrap up this year, as we bring this year to an end, and as we look ahead to 2022, what are the areas specifically that you look at as far as setting goals, and how do you set goals effectively that you're going to stick to? Because I think that's a big thing for a lot of people is they can write down, like I want to make $1 million this year, or I want to lose weight. You know what I'm saying? But how do we actually do that? Right? Do you break it down? How does that work? Russell: Yeah. So I'd say, again, this is like, we could write a whole 25 book topic on this. So I'll just go over some of the highlights of things I think about. One of them actually I got from Scharf and that was interesting. He spoke at Funnel Hacking Live Orlando, and we did a little session on stage, and it was interesting because he was talking about it from a team building standpoint, but I took this principle back, and I started implementing it with my family and then in my own personal life. And he talked about how a lot of people set a goal like I want to make a million dollars. And he said if you structure it and if you look at it like a football game or a football team, it's different, right? He said, if you sit and look at the goals, there's always the main goal of anyone who's a football player. They want to be in the Hall of Fame. That's their legacy, their legend. There's the Hall of Fame goal. Right? And so that's the first thing is what's the Hall of Fame goal? And then you break it down from there and say okay, now what's the Super Bowl? What do you have to do to win the Super Bowl in football, what the Super Bowl for you, what it is. And then from there you break down to like, okay, what are the things you've got to do to win this game, this quarter, this half and things like that. Right? So it's breaking things down like that. And so I did this with my family like two or three years ago. It was really cool. We said for our family, what's our Hall of Fame goal for our family? What is the big thing where we're like, I made it into the Hall of Fame. I'm a legend. This is amazing. So we set a goal for the family. And I've been thinking about that with ClickFunnels and with me and my mission. What's my Hall of Fame goal? So that's the first thing to think through because it's not something like I'm going to get this year, I'm going to get it. But it's like, I've got to be doing a lot of things to eventually when I retire, I did this thing and I'm in the Hall of Fame, right? What is that for you? Because if you don't know what that is, it's hard to reverse engineer everything backwards. A lot of times entrepreneurs are good at just running, ready, fire, aim, but we're not thinking, and I'm as bad as anyone else. Right? Again, I want to make a million dollars. Then 10, then 100. You keep looking at these things as opposed to what's the end goal of where you're trying to get to. So that's first thing, Hall of Fame goal. And then what's your version in the Super Bowl? And the Super Bowl is more like, in my mind, the next 12 months, like what are you going to do, right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And so that's the bigger one I think a lot of people are thinking about when you're trying to January 1st setting your New Year's goal. This is your Super Bowl goal. Next 12 months, this is the thing I want to accomplish. And it's not 12 things. Football teams aren't like, okay, I'm going to win the Super Bowl, and I'm going to win this. I'm going to win this. No, there's just one goal. There's one thing that you're focusing on. And then underneath there, there's all the things you've got to do to be able to accomplish that. And that's where these sub-goals come in. Right? And so that's the first phase. Any questions about it before I move on to the next? Josh: Yeah, well, no, just a comment on that. I was reading. I don't have the book next to me. The book Essentialism. Have you ever read that book? Russell: Yes. Back in the day, I did. Josh: Okay. Super, super good. Right? And one of the things that he talks about there is he's like, it's always funny to me when companies say that their company has a lot of priorities. He's like, you can't have a lot of priorities. You can have a priority and then everything else comes secondary. Right? So whenever I walk into a company they're like, our priority is customer service and this, and then list all the other ones. He's like, then you don't have any priorities. Right? And so he is like, when you sit down, what's the number one thing? What is the thing that if that thing happens, it is a success? Right? The whole year, that's what the thing was. And so sitting down, I noticed that for me and my company, for us, our number one priority for next year is not, yes, we have a revenue goal and yes, we have quarter goals and all the different things. But for us, the number one goal is we want to build the very best product in the space for what we do. Right? That is the goal. For 12 months, that is our goal. And so now everything else comes secondary. And so when you're talking about that is like, what is the goal? I love football, right? So football is how I do all my analogies? Right? The Super Bowl is the 12 month goal. Right? And what's interesting about that is the Super Bowl is a collective team goal. The Hall of Fame is an individual goal. Right? Which is super interesting because then you can have your own individual, but then as a team, and as I'm starting to grow a team more, things like that, having that really clear goal, I think, was really cool. So no, just some comments, but no questions on that. '. Russell: I love that. Very cool. So then, and you could tell who I'm studying right now by some of my phrases. I've been going deep into Napoleon Hill and Charles Haanel and all the old time people right now. That's where my mind's been with. And it's interesting because as I study all them, especially Napoleon Hill, what he talks about all the time is you've got to pick a goal, and then you have to move forward with definiteness of purpose. And he uses that phrase, and took me forever. Finally I couldn't even like say the word right because it's such a weird word, but definiteness of purpose. And when I think about that definiteness of purpose is like, this is what I'm doing, the Super Bowl. I'm going forward. There's the goal. I'm not just dabbling and hopefully I'll figure out my way. I've got my sights on the goal, and I'm moving forward with definiteness of purpose. It means everything is going towards that thing. Right? And so, that's the biggest thing. And I was reading a Charles Haanel book last night, and he's the guy that wrote Master Key System and a bunch of other really cool old books. And what he talked a lot about is just desire. A Lot of people are like, oh, I want to go. I want to hit Two Comic Club, but then their desire isn't big enough to actually get them moving forward with definiteness of purpose. Right? And he shared this story, and I've heard this story a thousand times over the years. I'm sure everyone's heard it. I think my math teacher used to tell, he said it was Euclid that told this story. In this book it was someone different. I don't know what that story is, but basically the dude comes up to the gurus like, "I want to learn how to do whatever. I want to learn how to make money online. I want to learn how to whatever the thing is." Right? And so the guru's like, "Well meet me tomorrow morning at the beach, and I'll show you how to do that." So the next morning, meets the dude at the beach. The guru walks him out in the water, and they get deeper and deeper and deeper. And he gets the point where the water's up to the kid's head or whatever. And he grabs head and shoves it under the water, and he holds him there, and the guy's fighting and failing. And the point is where he is about to die. And then he pulls the guy out of the water and the guy's like, "What are you doing?" And he's like, "When you want the thing you want as bad as you wanted air, you're going to get it." And that's this desire thing. So we have the goal. We have to move forward with definiteness of purpose. That becomes the focal point of every thing we're doing. And then the last piece is that desire. Because most people that I find who don't have success, it's because they don't have desire. Right? For me, when I was wrestling, and I wanted to be state champ, I had so much desire. I couldn't stop thinking about it. It was day and night. I'd sit in class, and all I could think about was different wrestling moves and what I could do to increase my strength and my cardio better and how to get the moves better because my desire was so strong for that thing. And for me, business was the same one. When I got into business, I just wanted to figure this out and to make money and to grow a company. I had so much desire that it happened. Right? I think most people just don't have desire. Like, oh, let's just set a goal, and hopefully I make that. If that's what you're going into it, you're not going to be successful. What's the Yoda quote? Josh: Do or do not. There is no try. Russell: Yeah. If you ask him what's your goal? And they're like, "Oh, I'm going to try to whatever." It's like, you're not going to make it. Why not? Because you said I'm going to try to do it. Josh: Right. Russell: You have to be definiteness of purpose. I'm going to be a state champ. I'm going to hit it a Two Comma Club. I'm going to make a million dollars. I'm make 10, I'm going to make a hundred. I'm going to get to a billion dollars. I'm going to get to 200,000 customers. This is what I am doing. And my desire's high. I'm moving forward with definiteness of purpose, and that's where it begins with. Josh: Yeah, and I think part of the thing that goes with that is Tony Robbins. Gosh, every time you bring Tony Robbins in, it's never bad. Right? You could do that every single year, and it would never get old. Right? . Russell: Yeah. Josh: But he says this a million times. He's like, you have to be so specific with what you want. Right? He's like people come to me all the time and I've heard him say this a million times, but just, we got second row right behind you because Parker Woodward came over. Shout out, Parker. He's like staring into your soul. And he's like, you want a million? And he is like, you want more money? Fine. Here's a dollar. You have more money move. Get out of my way. Right? Or get out of here. I'm like, dang. Right? If you're not so specific with what you want, you'll get it. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Right? But it's not going to be what you actually want because you're not specific with it. And so with definiteness of purpose, I feel like one of the keys to that is to be very specific with what that purpose is. Russell: Yep. Yep. Josh: You know what I'm saying? Russell: Oh, I want to get better. I want to get, yeah. It's got to be something tangible. You can touch it. And you know when you got it. You know when you went to the Super Bowl if you got to the Super Bowl or not. You can be like where's your goal last year? Oh, did you hit it? Oh, I don't know. Therein lies the problem. Right? That specific goal, move forward with definiteness of purpose because your desire's not high enough. You don't know if you hit it or not? That's a problem. Josh: Yeah. One more thing on that. I think it also helps you if you can get really... Setting clear goals is like a muscle, I feel like. It's a skillset that's learned. And I was listening to Alex Becker, which I know you know Alex. And dude's like just a mega-genius man. His mind. If I can ever get him on the podcast, I'll let you know because- Russell: You'd get a 30-second podcast with him. Josh: Right. Right. It'd be a profanity-laced thing full of truth. And you'd be like, wow, I have to process. Anyway, I was listening to him. I was watching his training on YouTube Ads and going through. And he is like, what people need to understand is that all of marketing is the exact same thing when it comes to running ads. Right? And actually I still have it written up on my board. He goes, every single person wants the exact same thing. They want a result. They want a consistent system to get there, and they want it fast. That's it. Right? He's like, if you just are able to specifically call out the result, provide the specific system to get there, and do it faster than anybody else, you will win every single time. Right? I feel like a lot of goal setting is that. Right? It's what is the result that you're actually trying to go after and get to? If you're not specific on that result, try marketing something where there's no specific outcome. It's so hard. Right? And so the more clear you can get on that specific outcome, the more clear that you can get on the outcome that you're providing for your customer. I feel like that's a learned skill that transfers in other areas besides just goal setting. You know what I mean? Russell: Oh, for sure. That's awesome. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Becker's smart, man. I did one call with him one time, and it was literally like three minutes long. He's like, "Kid, it's all I got," and it was done. I was like, that was amazing. Anyway, so. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Becker, he's a freak of nature. That's for sure. Russell: Yeah. Okay, I got four more things to talk about related to it. Josh: Okay. Russell: I got this from Tom Bilyeu because Tom's one of those people who is again, just brilliant. And he said something in three or four podcasts, just kind of like as a blah, blah, blah. Just went off on it. And I remember one day, so I finally, I messaged him on text message. I sent an audio message. I was like, okay, you said this. I want to make sure I understand this right. And he wrote back to me, and he messages back. He's like kind of, but you kind of got it all wrong. I'm like, what? So I scheduled a call with him because I was like, I'm writing this book and this thing you just shared was so powerful. I need to map it out. So I spent an hour with him on the phone and mapped it out. I drew it out. I was like, is this what you're talking about? He's like, "Oh yeah. That's what I'm talking about." So it's going to be in the new book because it's core foundational. I'm going to go through with you guys because a lot of times, and I didn't know this, there were things that I did unconsciously related to these things, but now that I consciously know this, I'm going deep in it. In fact, I'm planning our Two Comma Club X Managed Circle members are going to Mexico in March, and I'm thinking I'm going to do a three-day event in Mexico just going deep on this alone because this is the key to everything you want in life. So there's the pre-frame you guys ready for me to jump? Josh: I'm ready. I'm hooked. Russell: Okay. So what Tom said was interesting. He said a lot of times we set a goal, but what we don't realize is that for us to get the goal, we can't be who we are today. Because if we were, we'd already have the thing, right? We have to actually evolve and change and become something different if we're going to achieve the thing we do. So then how do you become something different? And that's where you're in this weird limbo thing. Right? And so there are four core things that really tie into this. And so I'll talk briefly on each one as much as we can in the time we have. So the first one is after you know this is the goal, very specific, definiteness of purpose. I desire to go there. The first thing we have to do is have an identity shift. Right? Our identity has to be different than what we are right now. If we don't shift it, then we struggle. So I started looking back at the things I've had success in life. For me, the very first one was a wrestler. And I remember I got into wrestling. I liked it. And I was good at it, but I wasn't great. I don't have time probably to tell the specific story, but I remember a specific story where something happened where that day I was like, I'm a wrestler. This is me. This is who I am. I'm a wrestler. And as a wrestler, I'm going to do what wrestlers do. Right? And Tom, when I was talking to him, I mentioned that. And he's like, now imagine this. Instead of saying I was a wrestler, what if you said I'm a world class wrestler or I'm a state champion wrestler. He's like just by changing the identity that you're putting on yourself, changes how you view everything. Right? And for me, I viewed myself as a champion wrestler, and I view myself like I'm someone who's a state champion. Therefore, I started looking at what do the state champions do? How are they doing it? What do they believe? What do they think? What do they do? What do they value? And I started matching my beliefs, values, and rules based on that. But the first thing is that you have to realize what's the identity you want to put on yourself? And I think most people don't do it consciously. I didn't do it consciously. But when you become aware of it, it changes things. At Funnel Hacking Live, Anthony Trucks talked about identity, and it was such a powerful thing. If we figure out how to put these identities on ourselves, it makes everything else become easier. So the first thing is understanding, okay, what's the identity I've got to put on my shoulders if I'm going to become the person who's going to be able to reach that goal? And we've got to think through that and strategize and figure that out because if you don't, if you pick the wrong identity, like, oh, I'm an athlete, that's good. But I'm not become a world class wrestler if my identity's an athlete. If my identity is I'm a world class wrestler, I'm going to become a world class wrestler. Right? You've got to... When I got into business, it was the same thing. I was dabbling and dabbling and dabbling until I figured out I wanted to be an entrepreneur. And then after that, it wasn't just an entrepreneur. It's shifting, and it's changed throughout time, but the identity is the key because everything struck. You start doing things differently when you have a different identity. One of the identities I've I've recently, and I did a podcast about this, that I've put on myself is that I'm not just an entrepreneur or I'm not like... I'm a curator. And just by me saying that, I've literally bought, I would say conservatively, probably 3000 books in the last three months that I'm buying that I'm going through them, curating old books, trying to figure out all these kind of things because I have the identity. I put the identity upon myself, and all of a sudden, it shifts my behavior because of that. Josh: Yeah. Russell: So identity's the first thing. And again, we could talk for a day on identity, but understanding what is the identity that you're going to have to have to be able to become the person who's going to go get that thing. Josh: Okay. Can I touch on that just really briefly? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Okay. Only because, I don't know, I've spent like a hundred thousand dollars in coaching on this exact topic. So it was so crazy, when I was working with Katie and lots of other people. Have you ever read the book Psycho-Cybernetics? Russell: Yes. Josh: Dude, that book changed. That was the first personal development book I ever read. Russell: I'm trying to find the rights to that book right now, just so you know. Josh: Dude. Dude, ah. Russell: It's so good. Josh: Why do you get to do all cool stuff, Russell? Russell: Curating, that's my identity. It's what I do. Josh: Yeah. But I read that book and it, I mean, it completely changed my whole perspective on life. Right? And for the premise of the book, for those of you don't know, there's a guy. He was a plastic surgeon. He rebuilds people's faces and stuff. And he realized that when he would make even the smallest tweaks in people's faces that it would change their entire life. Everything about their life and their change based on how they saw themselves basically in the mirror. Right? And so this whole premise of the identity, part of it is when you have an identity shift, you actually believe it now. And there's so many people that are like, they want something, but the reason they don't do it is because they don't believe it's possible. They see themself as the person that's able to do that. Right? And so one of the things I thought about doing with the podcast sometime down the road is openly Dream 100ing people. How cool would it be to have on the board of, "Hey guys, we're all Dream 100ing Elon Musk right now." Right? How cool would that? But if you have the identity I'm going to Dream 100 Elon Musk, then all of a sudden, it just becomes, oh, for the next three, five, 10 years, it doesn't matter if you haven't gotten there yet. That's just who you are. It's just what you're trying to do. It's just what you're doing. And by default, your brain starts thinking differently. So anyway, I love that. I don't want to take anymore out of that, but that one concept changed my whole entire life of understanding that if you shift your identity, by default, you'll get to where you want to go. Russell: Yeah. It's huge. And again, I look at the things I've been successful in my life in, and again, looking backwards, I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize that I had an identity shift tangible. And in fact, I remember the day that it happened, and it changed everything for me. It was the day I became a wrestler. It was the day I became an entrepreneur. It was the day... It shifts things. And so, ah, anyway, so that's number one. So identity. Now under identity, if you look at my graphic, identity is at the top, and there's three pillars that go underneath identity. And they're all super powerful, and they all have different purposes and things. So if you look at one of the legs under identity is beliefs. What do you believe? And beliefs are cool. Because beliefs, I feel like beliefs can change. I have to figure what are the beliefs I need to have to be able to achieve this thing, right? If I believe that making money's difficult, I am not ever going to make money. If I believe making money's easy, it's going to be really easy for me to make money. Right? If I believe that I'm a good athlete, I'm going to be able to be a good athlete. If I believe that eating healthy is going to make me have more success, I'm probably going to eat more healthy. And so in the second phase, figure out what are these beliefs that you need to have? And some of them you already have inherently, a lot of them you don't yet. And so that's why when you have this identity, it's like, well man, if I want to be a world class wrestler, what do world class wrestlers believe? If I want to be an entrepreneur, what do world class entrepreneurs believe? Right? What are those beliefs? That is sitting down physically, I've been doing this recently. This is part of my New Year's thing I'm doing now is I'm listing out here are all the things I either believe or I need to believe to be able to hit this goal. Right? And so I start writing out these beliefs. Now the thing about beliefs that's hard is just by you writing down I believe this thing, does not necessarily mean you're going to believe that thing. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And this is where like most of personal development is affecting this tier, this leg of this thing. If I knew to believe I need to be successful, like I'm going to go read a bunch of Tony Robbins books because he's going to help me instill this belief in me until I actually believe it. Or I'm going to listen to a bunch of podcasts or whatever that thing might be. Right? Or if I believe that eating healthy is going to make me more successful. You may say I know I need that belief, but I don't really believe right now. That's why I keep going back to cookies and candies and ice cream or whatever. Right? So you need to instill that belief, so this is where a personal development comes. If I believe this belief is going to help me get the thing I need to do, I need to go listen to everybody that's talking about health or fitness or whatever that is until that belief becomes so ingrained in my psyche that now I actually believe it. Because when I believe it, now it becomes really easy to do. When I believed in wrestling that if I got on top of anybody in this country that I could turn them, then guess what? As soon as I got on top of anybody in this country, I could turn them, right? Because I believed it at such a deep level. I always tell people my core job at ClickFunnels is be the belief cheerleader. If I can get you guys to believe in yourselves, that's it because it's not that difficult. All these things are not hard. The hardest thing is getting you to believe it's actually going to work. Right? And believe if I buy ads, it's going to work, believing that I'm going to lose money on the front end, but it's going to be successful. I believe that if I put myself out there, it's not going to be scary. I believe, so it's like, I've got to get you to believe those things, but if you can do it, then it becomes easy. So I look at who's already achieved what I want? What are the things that they believe? And then I've got to start focusing on getting those beliefs wired into my brain so that I actually believe them. Okay? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I always tell people this, the biggest problem we have as humans is we always want to try to conform the world to what we believe, and that's not the right strategy. Especially, I see this in religion all the time where people are trying to convince like, this is what God should believe. It's like, no, no, no. If you really want to be successful in religion, you've got to figure out what does God believe? And then you shift your beliefs to that. You don't try to bend God's will to yours. That's insane. Why would you even think that's okay. We need to believe that he believes, it's not trying to get him to believe what I believe. Right? And that's the extreme example is religion in God, but it's true in anything. Right? If I was going to be basketball player, I would go figure out what Michael Jordan believes, and I would do everything I can to believe what he believes. I would not be trying to conform Michael Jordan's belief patterns to mine. Okay? Because he's done it, and I haven't yet. Right? And so that's the next step is figuring out what are the beliefs I have to have to be successful? And then I've got to go and start plugging the stuff into my ears and my head and be reading and listening and everything until these beliefs become so real that they become real. Because that's the hardest thing. The beliefs are the one, the other two I'm going to share are much more simpler, I think. Beliefs are the ones that are, they come and they go. And this is where it takes the mental mind power to make those things actually stick. Does that make sense? Josh: Yeah. Yeah. No for sure. No, I have so many thoughts on that. But for the sake of time, oh my gosh. Belief, I think that's the hardest thing. Like you said, it's one of the hardest things though. But I love the religion example because it's like, what was that? There's that one quote on it that says we will question everything except for the things we truly believe. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Right? And religion is a perfect example of this. I believe that Jesus came down to die on the cross for my sins. I believe that. Russell: Yeah. Josh: I've never even questioned it, and I've questioned pretty much everything in my belief. But I'm like, if I believe Christianity to be true, I by default believe that. Right? I believe that that happened. And so when I talk to people that don't have that world view, you're not even having the same conversation. It's not even worth debating on some particular topic about right or wrong or this because they don't believe this and I do. And it's a fundamental different thing about you. So yeah, anyway. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Talk a million years on it. Russell: That's true because, so when I'm on mission for my church, I, not to get religion, but I had that same thing. I was out there knocking on doors, telling people about God and about Jesus. And all of a sudden I realized, oh my gosh, most people don't believe in this. Josh: Right. Russell: And it was freaky for me. All the way back to do I actually believe in Christ? Do I actually believe there's a God? And I had to question those things and figure it out and get the belief. And then it was strengthening everything I was doing moving forward. But same thing in anything we're doing in life. So beliefs are beliefs. Josh: We'll do the Mormon episode because I have questions for you on that. I've got to finish the podcast first. We're not done all the way done yet. But that'll come once I know everything you believe, Russell, then I'm going to come question you on it. Russell: Yeah. I'm excited. One thing it'd be cool if you guys want, if you type in to Google type in Tom Bilyeu Impact Theory beliefs. He actually has a list that he makes all people who join his member site go through these belief patterns. And they're fascinating. And it's seeing Tom mapping out for his community here's the beliefs that we have as a community if we're going to have the impact. And so it's worth it to go look at his beliefs. It's as related to his members and his membership platform. But it's something you guys can use this as well if you are serving group of entrepreneurs or a group of whoever you're serving, when they come in, helping them to identify and strength. Like these are a the beliefs you have to have to be successful in our world. And Tom did it such a cool way. I've not yet done that in my world, but I'm planning on that because again, if people are joining my coaching program, they want to become more like me, therefore, what do I believe that got me here? I need to be able to identify those things and give them to people and then help drill those things into their mind because that's what's going to be successful as they believe those things. And so belief is just, anyway. We can go again, this is another three day event just on beliefs. Josh: All right, all right. Russell: Okay. I'll go through the other two. The other two are not simpler, but they're easier. Okay, so we have identity at the top, right? Identity shift, boom. Beliefs, and again, map these things out, you guys literally between now and New Year's or whatever you're listening to this, sit out and write out here's all the beliefs I have to believe to be able to be successful in this thing that I'm trying to figure out. And for me, it's funny as I've been doing this, I've been listening to a lot of Tony Robbins's stuff or reading Napoleon Hill. Tony will tell, like when he speaks, he's like, you've got to believe this, and he shares a belief. And I started putting those things in. Like I want to keep building up my belief. These are all things I believe in because if I can believe those things in myself, again, my likelihood of success. So this is an ever-going thing. It's not just like, here's my beliefs, and it's done. It's like if you're hearing speakers or podcasts or books or whatever, like, oh this is the belief I need to have. I see why this is such a powerful thing to start adding these things into your version of your beliefs. Okay? The next one. So you have your beliefs. The next one I'm going to go to is values. And values and beliefs are very similar, but values, I feel like, are more so... Beliefs are things that I've got to be working on to get myself the belief things to move forward. Values are what I actually value. For me, I value hard work. Okay? In fact, I have so many friends who their beliefs are different. One of my really good friends, John Jonas, who owns OnlineJobs.ph, super successful company, great entrepreneur. But he values being able to work as little as humanly possible and still make money. And he does. And he's been very successful. I value working my face off because my whole value system growing up was wrestling. We worked hard. We had at work everybody. So I value hard work, and I love it, and I enjoy it, and I'm never going to... My values are not John's, and that's okay. They're going to be different, but I need to know what my values are because if I'm going to go into something, if this is not aligned with my values, I'm not going to have success with it. So I need to know what my values actually are. And so what are the things you value? I value hard work. I value giving. I value creation. I value... Top of my head, I don't have my list here, but what are the things you actually value? Okay? And then as you're looking- Josh: We know hard work has to be close to the top of that list because that's the one that came out first when you can't remember anything else. Russell: And for sure, for me, it is. It's such a core value. But if me and John were both going after the same goal, which is let's grow our company by whatever, he's going to struggle because his value's not going to be hard work, and vice versa, for he's like I want to take four to five days of vacation every single month, that goal is never going to work for me because I don't value those things like he does. And so it's going to be constant odds with ourselves. Right? So listing out here's all the values you have and understanding those things and again, you can shift your values and values change. But values are harder to change, I believe. Beliefs, I can change, not faster, but those things are multiple whereas values, based on my life experience, these are things I value, and those things are there. They're not going to shift or disappear or leave. These are my values. Josh: Yeah, very rarely. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Yeah. Russell: But if I list those things then I can look at as I'm trying to become this person, do these fit in my values? If not, it's like, how do I structure this in a way where it still fits and it's still congruent with my values because otherwise you're going to be odds to yourself. And I know so many people who are like, they have one value but they have a goal and they're those things are at odds with each other. And that's why they never succeed because they're just, I want this goal, but I don't value this. Therefore, you can't hit it. Josh: Yep. Russell: So beliefs, values, and the last ones are your rules. Okay? And your rules are like, you set up these, it's almost like guideposts to get the thing. Right? So when I was wrestling, I had a lot of rules. My rules were I do not cut corners. I have a story behind that, but I do not cut corners. I don't drink carbonation. One of my other rules was I'll never go more than 24 hours without doing some kind of cardio because I had a belief that after 24 hours, if I haven't worked out that my cardio would drop down, and I didn't want to lose anything. So I had a rule saying I cannot work out. So I could take Sunday off, but I can't take Saturday and Sunday. Right? I had a rule of no more than 24 hours of no cardio. I had rules of what time I woke up in the morning, what time I went to bed. I had all these rules, and rules bleed into routines. Right? So you set these rules, and from there you create a routine. So looking back, here's the goal I have, I'm moving forward with definiteness of purpose. Here's all the rules I have to create to give me boundaries to make sure that I move forward and I hit those things. And so for me, my rules right now are like, okay, I have to make sure I write for two hours every morning before I come in. Because if I don't do that, none of my writing gets done. I have a rule about this and rule about this, and I have these different rules I create for myself to give me boundaries, to be able to actually hit my goal. And then the rules again, here's the rules. The rules are translating into routines. Right? So here's my rules. I tie these into my morning routines, my afternoon routines, my night routines. And now I've got the things I need to guide me to the goal. Whew. So there's a lot of stuff in there. Josh: That's really, really good though. I feel like if someone were to just go and apply that right there, that sounds simple, but it's not. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Right? If you were to actually go sit down like that, you could map out that for a while, and I see why you want to do a three day event on it or something like. That'd be awesome to go through each one of those because you're literally rewriting. So how I think of the mind is I think of the mind as a computer system, and then the story, the master story, ha-ha. The master story of your mind. Right? But the master story is the computer program that you program it. Right? So there's the Windows operating system inside of a computer, right? Or the Mac. And so the master story is like the operating system. And by going through and identifying and writing down those three things, it's like you're rewriting your operating system almost that by, or if you've never done it, you're writing your operating system because your subconscious mind by default then just carries that 80% of the way. Right? And that's the coolest thing is if you can just switch your subconscious mind, 80% of the work is done. It'll do it for you. Right? You've only got to battle that last 20%. So that's super cool. Russell: Yeah. So if we were to recap this really quick, for those who are like, I want to do this exercise with my kids or my family or by myself, I sit down and say, "Okay, what's the Hall of Fame goal?" Where do you want to go someday? Right? So you've got that, right? Then from there, say, "What's the Super Bowl goal?" That's what I'm going to accomplish the next 12 months. Here's my Super Bowl goal. And I have that, and say, "Okay, now to do this, I've got to have desire, and I've got to have definiteness of purpose." Meaning I have to really, really want the thing or it's not going to happen. Why do I want it? How do I amplify that desire in my head? And where am I going, right? Now we come back and say, "Okay, what's the identity I need to take on to be able to achieve this thing?" Right? And be specific with the identity. I'm a wrestler versus I'm a world class wrestler versus I'm an Olympic level wrestler. Right? So here's the identity to have. So write that down. And identity is just one thing. This is the one thing I am. Then now what are all the beliefs I have that I need to have to be able to be successful in this thing? Okay, I've got to believe this. I've got to believe this. I've got to believe this. This is what I already do believe, but a lot of it's new beliefs I need to create to be able to be successful. Right? And then who are the things I value and making sure I'm not out of alignment here. I value this. I value this. Here are the things I value. And then here's the rules I need to create for myself to make sure I actually move forward and hit that thing. And I'm going to take these roles, and I'm going to convert them into routine to make sure that I'm in the guardrails to my success. And so that's the pieces and ah, it's so much fun. Again, this will be a book someday if I ever get it done. But these are the pieces that are- Josh: Yeah, Russell, we need it. Come on, man. Not like your life's busy. Get it done. Russell: I'm working my fastest. It's going to be amazing. So anyway, I hope that helps you guys. As you're sitting down this year, this is literally what I'm doing. We're recording this December 28th. I've been mapping these things out. And my goal is January 1st, I'm waking up, and I'm just going to sit down and I'm going to flush these things and spend hours just putting it... Again, I've been percolating on them and taking notes on stuff, and I'm going to map it out, have it printed out. And this is the next 12 months of my life. This is the goal. This is where we're going and moving forward with definiteness of purposes. I'm going to just amplify my desire. Here's the identity I've got to take on to make it successful. Here's my beliefs, my rules, my values. And let's go and start running. So hopefully that helps. Josh: One more super rapid fire question then we can wrap it up. Russell: Okay. Josh: Do you have a coach that helps you with this, or do you do it all yourself? Russell: Oh, very good question. So during my life, I always go on and off with different coaches that have helped different parts. Right now. I do not have a coach. How do you say this right without being creepy. I don't have a coach who's living right now. Right now I am looking at authors as my coach. And for me right now, Napoleon Hill is the person I'm focusing on, who I'm literally going through so much of his stuff right out and having him accountable to me. I will in the near future rehire a coach to help me, but I'm still trying to, I don't know if that makes sense or not, but I'm trying to- Josh: Yeah, no, no, for sure. Russell: Yeah. Josh: That's awesome. That's good. Russell: Anyway. Josh: All right. Thanks Russell. That was awesome. Russell: Hope you guys enjoy it. If you enjoyed this episode with me and Josh, please let us know. Take a screenshot of the podcast on your app, tag me in it. Let us know your favorite thing, biggest takeaway. And with that said, I hope you guys enjoy the new year, planning it out. And I want you to all hit your Super Bowl goals over the next 12 months. So let's do it. If you do that, you'll change the world in your own little way, and it'll be awesome. So thanks, Josh. Thanks everybody, and we'll see you guys on the next episode.

Hello and welcome to this week's Club Room! I have some great new music for you over the next hour from Mr. Ho, Andrea Oliva, Ryan Aitchison, Philippe Petite, Sailor + I in a Radio Slave & Thomas Gandey remix, Paula Tape plus my new track ‘Aperol Spritz', a forthcoming release on Sous Music from Basic Instinct and a classic to finish from Josh One & King Britt. Enjoy and stay safe! 01. Mr. Ho - Bail_E 02. Andrea Oliva - Transit 03. Ryan Aitchison - DN5 04. Philippe Petite - Black Hole 05. Sailor + I - Thinking About You (Radio Slave feat. Thomas Gandey Remix) 06. Anja Schneider - Aperol Spritz 07. Basic Instinct - Into The Night 08. Paula Tape - Multiverso 09. Josh One - Contemplation (King Britt Mix)

In this episode of Sneakers!, Amalia and Ellen are joined by our very first guest, Sneak Attack's Joshua Lorimer, to discuss Greaek's character episode, "The Hope of Hammer Hall." Links:  Sneak Attack! Discord SA! Patreon Content (including notes and character sheets referenced in this episode) Josh's Script Document

Chad interviews Managing Director at thoughtbot, Joshua Clayton, about what a Managing Director at thoughtbot does, what makes Boost at thoughtbot different than other teams, and the belief in integrated teams of designers and developers company-wide. Empathize with Your Customer by Josh Clayton (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/empathize-with-your-customer) thoughtbot Boost (https://thoughtbot.com/boost) Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/) Follow Josh on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuadclayton/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/joshuaclayton) Check out Josh's website (https://joshuaclayton.me/) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Josh Clayton, Managing Director of the thoughtbot Boost team. Hey, I know that company. Welcome, Josh. JOSH: Hey, Chad. How are you? CHAD: All right. I'm back to the show I think. I didn't get a chance to look up the last episode you're in, but it was probably hundreds of episodes ago now. JOSH: Yeah, it's got to have been a while. CHAD: [laughs] Speaking of a while, you recently…now time is all messed up for me, but I know that you have been at thoughtbot for a long time. How long has it been? JOSH: It was 12 years in August. CHAD: It's been a wonderful 12 years, Josh. JOSH: I agree. I agree. CHAD: [laughs] JOSH: It's been fun. CHAD: So in that time, you have had a few different roles. But you've been a Managing Director for a while now. JOSH: Yeah, I think that's...let's see. It was seven and a half years for the Boston team. And then it's 10 and a half months with Boost. CHAD: So your background is as a developer. And you, like a lot of people who have a background as developers at thoughtbot, myself included, still do development on a fairly regular basis. What does the Managing Director job at thoughtbot actually do? JOSH: What don't we do [laughter] is maybe a better question. Effectively, we're running that team's business. So it involves some amount of software consulting. It involves software sales. It involves managing the profitability of the team. There are marketing functions, and, I don't know, anything and everything, hiring-related things. We opened up and recently filled our Development Director position, which was open for a couple of months over the summer. We've just opened up a Design Director position. So it's everything. [laughs] It's everything it feels like. CHAD: At the beginning of this year, we did an episode about the changes that we had made at thoughtbot to reorganize the teams around rather than geographic studios around the types of work that we would do on that team. And that's how the Boost team was created. So in that episode, we gave people an overview. But I'd love to hear in your own words, what makes Boost at thoughtbot different than the other teams, and what do you focus on? JOSH: So what makes Boost different? I think one of the drivers, one of the motivators, is to embed alongside existing product teams, engineering, and design teams, and help them get better, help them grow as well as ship features and fix bugs. So I think that the way that I position it is if there's an existing product that's deployed, people are using it day in and day out. Hopefully, it's been battle-tested. There are probably some funky areas of the code. Those are the codebases that we're operating in. It might be a team of two people; it might be a team of 200 people. But there is an existing product and an existing team. They're looking for our support to help make it better. CHAD: One of the things I love about Boost and the changes that we've made, especially relative to Boost, is that at thoughtbot, we really believe in integrated teams of designers and developers. And a big part of what we've always done has been to be a complete product design and development team that brings new products to market, big and small. And because we were one of the first consulting companies in the world to switch to Ruby on Rails and because of that deep experience with Rails, and scaling, and working on existing products, we had a significant number of customers who engaged us for development for that expertise, and to help them scale, and grow, and hire, and implement best practices or solve problems that they were having in their existing codebase or on their existing team. And even though that was a significant part of our business, it was always something that seemed that we maybe even didn't really want to be doing it, or it was on the periphery of our marketing and positioning. And I was super excited when we officially created this team because it allowed us to acknowledge that this was a significant part of what we do, a significant part of our revenue, and to have a team of people that opted into doing this kind of work who would not only love the kind of work but want to even grow it and do more of it. And we haven't really had that for this kind of work. We've had individuals wanting to do it but not at an organizational level in an organization that supports it. That was more of a statement than a question, but reaction? JOSH: [laughs] I think you're spot on. It's always been interesting to me to hear that it's...obviously, at thoughtbot, we have been building MVPs and working with a lot of different types of companies over the years and helping them launch products. But I think that the type of work that I and, ideally, obviously, other people on the Boost team enjoy working on is existing platforms and working alongside existing teams. We talk about legacy systems, and I think they get a bad rap. And it's like, no, it's battle-tested. CHAD: [chuckles] JOSH: The business has proven its viability. It is still around years later. Conway's law applies in all of the stuff. Again, there are gnarly aspects of the code. But I think that's what the folks on the Boost team enjoy being challenged by is problems where these things are larger systems. They've been around for a while, and they do get pretty gnarly. CHAD: I think one of the things that held us back in the past is that it is a skill set, and it's an experience. And you are going to be on an MVP project where you're doing design and development, going from concept to launching of a new idea, usually in a matter of weeks, working directly with a founder or a team of co-founders. And then you rotate on to this significantly larger project with maybe an engineering team of tens or dozens or hundreds of other developers on it. It's a very different skill set, and you have very different challenges in that environment. And when you're constantly switching between those different kinds of projects, you can't necessarily get better at it. And that's one of the other things that I think is helping us be more successful. JOSH: I remember one of the teammates had joined the kick-off call with me at the Boost inception that very first meeting. And it was Joël. And Joël had asked pretty straightforwardly, "What is the expectation in terms of project rotations?" Because I think historically across the company, we'd aimed to do two to four-month engagements before we'd rotate folks. And I told him point-blank it's going to be six months to a year probably. And I don't think it necessarily shocked him or other folks on the team. But I think when you're going into existing codebases and working alongside existing teams, there is inherently politics at play and complexities at play where it might take you being a new developer on a team six weeks, maybe longer before you actually feel comfortable and confident navigating the codebase and knowing where you can have and make an impact. And so, I think some of the shifts there have been particularly interesting to watch the types of consulting conversations that we have within the team just because it is a different beast, I think than building and launching products. CHAD: So let's get into a little bit of detail about the kinds of projects we're doing in Boost to the extent that we can give specific examples and maybe more importantly and relevant to the audience, what are the things that we see? What are the common challenges that we see as products grow and evolve, as teams grow and evolve? What do you think one of the most common challenges that people have is? JOSH: As teams grow and evolve, I think a lot of teams run into onboarding issues and general knowledge sharing. I think when you start a small team, and you're two, three, maybe five engineers, it's pretty easy for everyone to keep probably the entirety or the majority of that domain in their head at any one time. As you work to scale a team...there's a client of ours right now where they're effectively doubling every...I don't know what the time period is, but they're growing very, very rapidly. And the feedback that some of our team have provided to them is it's really hard, and there are very much knowledge silos. And they're working through, okay? How do we tease this out? How do we share this context so that you don't have a couple of folks that are effectively blocking every single other member of the team? And so that's one of the core areas that hangs up our team and other teams. [chuckles] Our clients bring us on, and a lot of times, it's like we're rip-roaring and ready to go. And it's like, I need information from a bunch of people, and the processes aren't in place such that we can be as effective as we would want to be given the nature of work that we're doing. CHAD: I think that's a straightforward problem, and it's a good example...I don't want to make this an hour-long thoughtbot commercial. But I'll just point blank say one of the reasons why sometimes working with us is positive for clients is it's really easy to have a certain pain around your onboarding process or company, even just simple things like how long it takes to get a new person a computer or to ramp them up on their existing team. If you're just hiring an employee, it's easy to ignore the cost of that. JOSH: Yes. CHAD: But when you're bringing on thoughtbot and we have a specific start date, and it's a certain cost, and those kinds of things, it can really expose the pain that is already happening but was just being ignored and provide the impetus to actually fix the problem. JOSH: One of the things that we try to set out to do on the first day for any project is to open up a pull request to the codebase, whether it's an improvement to the onboarding like the README for the repository or whatever it might be. Ideally, we are finding ways to contribute on day one. And sometimes, that's frankly not realistic for individual contributors doing it from their own machines. But oftentimes, we'll know that going in. And as we onboard new folks and things like that, we'll say, okay, well, day one is going to be your pair programming over Tuple or some other tool so that you are able to engage and interact with a team and work on the code, even if there's still a bit of a lag between GitHub access and everything else that's the base of onboarding steps. CHAD: So another common one that people bring us on to help with is scaling challenges in terms of the actual product itself, maybe that's performance or other scaling challenges. I'm working on a project now where that was how we first got involved. The service was failing, and it was only getting worse under the increasing scale. So, what are some tips that you have for how to effectively solve some of those problems while not bringing everything else that you need to accomplish to a screeching halt? JOSH: At the end of the day, you can't fix something that you don't know is broken. Or you might have a hunch in terms of, oh, I know this page or this set of pages are slow. I think so much of what we see is teams come in, and they're like, "We don't have New Relic setup." We don't have an instrumentation setup. So they can't measure anything. And so it's like, I know this page takes three or four seconds to paint, but I don't know why. And I don't know how to fix it. It's like, okay, well, the first thing that we need to do is set up some amount of performance monitoring and application tracking just to get a sense of what that's like. There is a potential customer who had reached out back in January of this year. So this was weeks into Boost's inception. And they said, "Listen, we've got some performance-related issues. We don't really know what to do, but we know the application is really, really slow on these couple of pages." It's like, "Are you using New Relic, or Scout, or anything like that?" They're like, "No." It's like, okay, that's the first thing that you need to do. And they came back about a month ago and were like, okay, "Here's the access to all of this data. Now we're ready to go," and it's like, "Yes!" They probably didn't need to wait for that long. But it really speaks to that in order to address some of the performance-related stuff; we need to have some sense of what is going on and where. I know Steph over on The Bike Shed Podcast had talked to Nate Berkopec. And she had floated one of the questions I had had. And he basically schooled me on that podcast and reiterated it really is ultimately about measuring so much of what we're doing. CHAD: Yeah. One of the things, especially for teams that are having a problem but feel like they don't know what to do it's tough when it's actually the case. But the reality is a lot of times; there's actually very low-hanging fruit that it's just no one has the time or experience to actually identify that. And putting some monitoring in place combined with actually taking the time to look through it, especially if it's the first time you ever hit scaling problems...There's either a missing database in that index or some N+1 queries, and fortunately, once you identify that kind of problem, it's usually fairly quick to fix as well. It's a different thing when there's maybe fundamental architecture things that are causing your app to have scaling problems. But it's very unlikely that those are the first problems you're ever experiencing. The first problems you're ever going to experience if your app is running slow are going to be things happening at the database level or missing an index or something like that. And it's very unlikely that significant architecture changes need to be put in place in order to fix the first scaling problems that any product usually has. JOSH: That wasn't the type, or at least I think when we got brought on, and you were working on your most recent clients, we were well beyond...maybe we weren't, maybe I'm misrepresenting or misremembering, but it feels like we were well beyond some of the low hanging fruit. CHAD: Yeah, there was a batch of low-hanging fruit. One of the things if you're working on a product that is scaling super rapidly, what can happen is that the low-hanging fruit masks the other problems that are happening there because it all happened too quickly, all at the same time. And that was the case on this project. So it went from having hundreds of people using it to millions of people using it in the span of a month. And so there was low-hanging fruit. But removing the low-hanging fruit didn't make the app suddenly work again; it just made it so that we could look at the metrics and say, "Okay, those things are no longer the problem." The real problems are not being masked now. We now can identify the architectural changes that need to be put into place in order to operate at the scale. JOSH: Yeah, it's the low-hanging fruit when the orchard is on fire. [laughter] That is true. CHAD: Right. So you got to peel back like an onion. And this is the case with I think a lot of...whether it be a technical challenge or a team challenge. You can't always come in and very quickly solve the root problem. You might not even know what the root problem is. You just have to start solving the problem that is obvious in front of you and learning more. And then you solve that one, and then you expose the next one, and you expose the next one. And even when you can identify the root problem, you'll be like, this is the problem, and everyone agrees it's the problem. It still might be too hard to actually fix that problem. It might be an organizational or a systemic problem. And instead, you say, "Okay, we have to iteratively solve that problem." And you start peeling back those layers to get to the point where you've positioned yourself to solve that core problem. And I think we face that a lot, particularly as external consultants. We're coming in, and we can't just be the bull in the china shop. Because we haven't built the trust with everyone necessary to make the changes, or we don't know enough to know what the changes need to be. JOSH: Right. And I think the people aspect of all of these things in my opinion...and I should caveat this with I've been writing software professionally for almost 20 years. The people, in my opinion, are always the harder aspects to any engagement. It's very rare that we go into a technical project where it's like we literally cannot figure out a technical solution to this thing. We can usually figure it out. And it might take weeks or months to implement, especially as it spans multiple systems. But more often than not, it's really navigating the people and the relationships and building that trust like you had mentioned that is really what will help dictate success within that project. CHAD: I have a line that I use fairly often, and it's that I really believe very few, if any, developers sit down and are like, I'm going to write a bad solution today, or I'm going to write bad code today. That's not what people are doing. I think the majority of people genuinely try within their entire capacity to do a good job. And so that means that when I'm coming into a situation where there are problems, or things are messy, or there were bad decisions or bad code written, it can't be chalked up to like, oh, that was a bad developer, or that was a bad choice that was made. There was usually some people or organizational problem that caused that to happen in the first place. And merely fixing the bad code is not going to be what we should focus our time on. We probably need to do that. But if we don't fix the reason for that problem in the first place, it's just going to happen again. A really popular example of this is when we get approached to do a Rails upgrade on a very significant product that is very behind with Rails. First of all, it's very expensive to do that on a very significant project if there's no test coverage. People could hire us to spend and spend a lot of money just getting to the next Rails version. But if they do that and don't solve the reason why they were so behind with Rails and have no test coverage and all that stuff, along the way, it will have been wasted effort because in a year or in two years, it will be back to the way that it was before. And that's one example that's very technical. But that kind of stuff happens all the time, even with squishy things [laughs] like the structure of a team or something like that. So if you could give advice to people that are struggling with a particular problem, what would you tell them? And let's maybe make it a little bit more concrete. Like, one thing that can happen is as teams grow, like you said, not everyone can know everything. And so it starts breaking down into pods; maybe is one way to organize the team. And then you've gone into a bunch of individual teams working on discrete features. And that's happening fairly quickly. What are some ways to manage that change and manage that growth while maintaining continuity and making it go well? JOSH: I think a lot of it depends on the goals from the technical leadership in terms of areas of ownership. That'd be the first part that I would dive into, I think. We work with clients where they segregate front-end from back-end development. And that allows the teams to focus on React and TypeScript versus Ruby or Go or whatever their back end is written in. But if the goal is to share that knowledge, I think you've got options in terms of lunch and learn and shared code review and team demos and things like that. There are other ways to spread that information across the team so that everybody still has maybe not intimate knowledge of the code that's being written on a day to day basis, but they're at least aware of those patterns and practices and what each of the individual pods is may be responsible for and is delivering. So you have that team cohesion across more of the functional space, on the engineering side or on the product design side. CHAD: One thing that I think I would also add is that a lot of times, people take for granted how better developers will do their job if they understand the reason or the business drivers behind what they're working on. And it's really easy for people to take that for granted because it's like, there's a ticket to the ticket. It says what to do on the ticket. [laughs] JOSH: I have a blog post about this, actually. CHAD: [laughs] Okay, great. We'll put that in the show notes. But if someone doesn't understand the reason behind that, it's not going to go the way that you're expecting frequently. It's not as straightforward. JOSH: Yeah. You're left guessing what the underlying customer need is. And if you're guessing about the motivations, I don't want to say not in absolutes, but you're likely not going to address all of those core needs and implement an effective solution. I think in the blog post that I had written, ultimately, it was advocating for getting engineers to participate in customer interviews and really understand, like, how are people using the product that I am implementing features for? Because without that exposure, without seeing those pain points, oftentimes, it's okay, you've got a product designer or a product manager who's putting together this list of things to do. And if it's treated as a checklist or oh, I need to go implement XYZ without understanding why that needs to be done in the first place, what is the pain point? What is the customer-facing? How are they feeling as they're going through the product? Without that context and without that empathy, the solution is going to be...it might functionally work. But will it be a good user experience? Will it be a good customer experience? It's a little bit more shaky, I think. CHAD: Yeah. And in a fast-moving, fast-growing startup where everyone has a lot to do, if you're experiencing this kind of problem, it might manifest to you as stories get caught up at the beginning stages of when a developer is supposed to be working on them. And you find yourself having calls about what something is even supposed to be or supposed to do. And as the person who originated that ticket or originated that idea, you might have the feeling like, I can't believe we're having this conversation. Like, we don't have time to educate you about all the reasons why this is important and just please just do what we've said on the ticket. That is a natural reaction to that thing. And so my advice would be if you're feeling that, if your team is feeling that or something similar, there's probably something small you can do. It might not even be having developers participate in discovery or interviews or anything. It might be as simple as just making sure that on the ticket you say why it's important. If your ticket is a checklist of things to change or do, making sure that the reason why is communicated there will go a long way to having the person pick up that ticket, get the context necessary to understand, and make good decisions as they work on it. JOSH: Yeah, I remember the switch to the jobs to be done format. And I remember just being like, oh, [laughs] this makes a lot more sense because we can understand the context and the why. What is driving it? What is the problem there rather than what is the solution? And I think that shift in mindset does go a long way, like you said. CHAD: I think one of the ideas behind a well-functioning team is we talk about this idea of collaboration which is you feel like you're doing your best work, that things are moving quickly, and you're enjoying the people you're working with, and you're building upon each other's ideas, and you're making things better as a team. And I was recently talking to someone else, a candidate for VP of Engineering at one of our clients, and they were talking about flow, the idea of flow. And it wasn't a way that I had articulated it previously, but it's certainly another way of thinking about and a good way of thinking about it, especially when it comes to what is the role of a VP of engineering? Or what is the role of a CTO at a small company? Or what is the role of a development team or a product team in general? And one way to think about that is to work to maintain a flow state. And when we think about the processes that we have in terms of retrospectives where every week we gather, and we identify things that could be better, and we come up with action items, a lot of the things that drive what could be better or what we want to try to do differently are all identifying the things that take us out of the flow state and trying to fix that problem so that items flow from beginning to end smoothly, that they go from concept to production smoothly as quickly as possible, and that individual people know where the next item to take is that it's ready so they're not blocked as they begin it. And they're able to get that to staging, and get a pull request out, and get that reviewed quickly, get it to staging, get that reviewed quickly, and then deploy it to production. And in theory, even do a continuous deployment so that that whole flow is automated as much as possible. So this idea of flow resonated with me. Has it resonated with you? JOSH: Yeah, I agree. I remember seeing the comparisons people saying, okay, you're not actually looking for an engineer's passion necessarily. What you're looking for...and I come back to the hiring side of things because I'm doing that right now. But rather than looking to assess passion, it's assessing capacity and ability to get into a flow state more quickly. And obviously, so much of that is dependent on the team, and the communication style, the management style, and things like that. But flow is very much...I think once you get into that and you know how to get into that like you said, every waking moment is spent trying to optimize how do I get into this space? Because when you're in that space, when you're flowing, be it from an IC level or above, there's nothing quite like it. It's just this calm state of just everything feels like it's firing all the time perfectly, and it's good. And I think trying to make those spaces available for the rest of the team to get into that state and maintain that state makes a lot of sense. I remember years and years and years ago, there was the focus on maker versus manager time. And we talk about anchoring manager time either at the start of the end day or around lunchtime or whatever is a logical time for a break. The idea is to maintain that flow state for as long as possible so that nothing else eats into that. Because you do an hour of writing software, and then you've got a 30-minute one-on-one with a teammate. And then you go, and you run for another hour, hour and a half, and then it's another half an hour meeting. It's like you're being sucked away. It is really hard to get into that zone and then stay there. So I think there's been a focus on it for a while. And I'm really glad that there's now a name and a thing that we can point to. CHAD: I don't want to lead people astray about what Boost is. There's a big important part of Boost, which may not be immediately obvious to people, and that is design. I may have insinuated that design wasn't part of Boost before when we were talking about it, but it is. And it's designed on existing products and existing teams which is a different need than going from concept to launch of a new idea. JOSH: So we had done some work with The New England Journal of Medicine. And their team, a very small team, internal team, had basically designed an application. And they ran into a number of accessibility and usability issues. They continued to hear feedback from a lot of folks saying, "This is not effective for what we're looking to do." And they'd engaged us in a couple of different times basically to rip apart and re-architect some of the application hierarchy and the usability side of things. It's been really interesting to see okay, well, within the design side of operating within existing products, it's often lended or leaned more towards doing some amount of a design audit and usability audit, talking to customers. And less around we're going to start from scratch and more what are some of these iterative improvements that we can make to make the product more accessible, easier to understand, easier to navigate, easier to use within what is, again, these very large platforms sometimes? CHAD: I know one common request we get is we're thinking about implementing a design system or introducing a design system with the first version of the product. And we're having this growing pain around introducing new features. Is a design system the right thing to do there? That's a request we sometimes get. JOSH: Yeah. And I think a lot of it at the end of the day, what we're looking to assess is what are the knowns? How much do we know about the application, about the interface? We talk about on the software development side of things avoiding premature abstraction, and I think the same thing is true about design systems. Like, if we're going through a product, maybe it's a wizard, and apart from forms, the pages are individualized, and there's not really any common patterns. It's like, okay, well, maybe now it doesn't make sense. But when you've got an application that spans hundreds of pages, there are going to be patterns across the different pages in terms of application hierarchy and componentization and things like that. And the work that we're oftentimes brought in to do is let's assess what's there, figure out what are the common patterns here. And it's almost like refactoring and teasing things apart to where we get slight...it's a reduction in code use or rather an increase in code reuse because we're removing some of the idiosyncrasies that maybe were not teased apart into some component-based system. And that's fun work. [chuckles] It's really interesting. You get things like React when you're doing client-side rendering. And within the Rails side of things, there's a big push for the GitHub ViewComponent. RubyGem is another example. It's both ways to introduce these layers of abstraction that allow more of the engineering team to take on more of the application development, not because design isn't necessary, but they're then empowered to reuse these logical set of components. And so it amplifies the dev work, but it also amplifies the design work because the entire team is now leaning on that pre-baked work. It enables designers to shift focus and priorities to okay; what are new components? What are different ways to position this or present this information? And also, for our designers, it frees up their time to talk even more to customers, to people using the system. CHAD: Well, I guess we'd be remiss if we didn't do a more blatant plug. You mentioned it earlier, but we do have an opening for Design Director on the Boost team. JOSH: We do. CHAD: So who would be a good fit for that role? JOSH: That's a great question. I think a couple of the things that we're really focusing on for this role is someone who has done the work, so to speak, at an IC level for a lot of the work that we're doing right now with customers. And so we ask point-blank on the application sheet, have you worked in HTML and CSS? Have you facilitated design exercises like design sprints? Have you facilitated user interviews? Because so much of what we're seeing from a vision and a strategy perspective is we need to take and leverage these tools in the skill sets that our teams are looking to hone in on, and we want to take it a lot further. I think there's a big opportunity there. So I think it's less around years of experience. I wouldn't say you need to have 15 years of management experience or having been a director in order to apply for the role. But it's someone that can empathize with the team and has some opinions and some thoughts in terms of okay, what is design? What is not only visual design but product design accessibility? What does that look like in the next 5 to 10 years? Those are the people that I would love to see apply. CHAD: If someone's interested, where's the best place for them to do that? JOSH: thoughtbot.com/jobs. And the listing is there. CHAD: So what's next for Boost, Josh? What do you have your sights set on as we wrap up 2021 and head into the next year? JOSH: Oh boy. A lot of where the focus has been on this year is continuing to double down on Rails as the technology stack and get our feet wet, not that our feet aren't wet, [chuckles] continue to invest on the front end with React. I think for 2022, I think the big focus...we've run in the past some pretty successful custom trainings workshops for engineering teams. I think one that we had done earlier was late last year into early this year. We ran about 120 or so of their engineers through a custom RSpec course. So we worked with their engineering managers and some of their teams and got a sense of okay; given this codebase and given the skill sets of this 100-plus person engineering team, where should we focus? And we put together a two-day RSpec workshop. We administered over; I think, five or six weeks. We did it virtually. And the reception from that was incredible. They ended up bringing us back on. We're getting ready to start another round of consulting work where we're embedding alongside their teams. So I see that as a huge opportunity for Boost coming into next year. And then I think one of the things that we've been pushing for is reducing some of the billing time from folks in leadership positions so that they're in a better position to support their designers and developers. And I'm really excited about the progress that we've made thus far. And I'm excited to continue carrying that into next year. CHAD: Awesome. Well, thanks for taking the time to talk to me. JOSH: Thank you. CHAD: Part of this new season, Season 11 of the podcast, for the next few episodes, I'm going to be talking to each of the managing directors at thoughtbot about their teams, about the different kinds of work we do on those teams, and the challenges, and what phases are clients in those different stages of the product lifecycle. So you can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode and all the other episodes at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. Josh, if folks want to get in touch with you or follow along with you, what are the best places for them to do that? JOSH: Definitely Twitter. My handle is @joshuaclayton, all one word. CHAD: Awesome. Thanks again. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time. Special Guest: Joshua Clayton.

Click here to download the full transcription as a formatted PDF. Episode Summary: Welcome to The No Cap Health Show, a weekly podcast where Dr. Brian Boxer Wachler uses his decades of experience in medicine and ability as an expert researcher to provide a light-hearted approach and share health trends popular on TikTok. In this episode, Dr. Brian welcomes Stand-up Comedian and life advice wizard, Josh Otusanya to provide his Cap/No Cap analysis on today's topic: How to Be Funny. How do you set up a great joke to land a strong punchline and get an even stronger laugh? How can you use long pauses and misdirection to get a laugh? Find out in today's episode. If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you leave the show a Rating & Review at RateThisPodcast.com/NoCap. Episode Sponsor RevitalVision - https://www.revitalvision.com/ Key Takeaways 01:10 – Dr. Brian provides a quick and easy remedy for dealing with a hoarse voice 2:09 – Dr. Brian thanks today's sponsor, RevitalVision 02:49 – Dr. Brian welcomes today's guest, Josh Otusanya, who joins the show to share the story of how he became a stand-up comedian 09:09 – Dr. Brian and Josh dissect today's topic, How to Be Funny 10:47 – Josh speaks to some basic comedy principles and what he's noticed throughout his career 14:28 – Setting up the joke for the strongest punchline 16:33 – Dr. Brian talks about the late, great Lenny Bruce 18:40 – Dr. Brian provides the No Cap Recap of today's episode and encourages listeners to reach out and Rate and Review this podcast on   Tweetable Quotes “I definitely think that there are definitely some skills that anyone can learn that will absolutely increase their ability to be funny.” (09:35) (Josh) “If you talk about something that's relatable – that a lot of people can connect with – or even pointing out the absurdities in something that's relatable, I've noticed that you don't really have to do too much to be incredibly funny. You just need to have something that someone connects with.” (12:26) (Josh) “The more tension that you build, the more that punchline has to pay off. And when it does pay off, it typically results in a really strong laugh.” (15:04) (Josh) “One technique is make others feel superior. In other words, use self-deprecating humor where you make fun of yourself. People always find that funny.” (18:55) (Dr. Brian) Links Mentioned Dr. Brian's Website Dr. Brian's TikTok Dr. Brian's Instagram Josh's TikTok  Josh's Instagram   Please remember, Dr. Brian is a doctor, but he is not your doctor. He is here to provide general information, not medical advice, so you should always check with your doctor before relying on any information.   Podcast Production & Marketing provided by FullCast Copyright. Advanced Vision Education, LLC See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Show notes:Links:Threads.comBlueyVogmaskTwistIt’s a Southern ThingIf I had a front porchFull transcript:Josh:How y'all doing?Ben:I'm doing.Starr:Yeah, about the same.Ben:I've been riding my scooter to work all week.Starr:Oh, how's that?Ben:It's a lot of fun. Got a little electric kick scooter and top speed about 25 miles per hour. I was concerned about it being able to get up the hill that I have to go back up on my way home. It does drag a bit on that hill. I only got a single motor. Guess I should have gone with the dual motor. Otherwise it's fun. It's nice to be out in nature, I guess, air quotes, because you're still on the road and you're still a victim of cars and stuff. Being able to see the sun coming up over the hills and down to the valley and while you're just feeling the wind on your face, it's all good.Josh:It sounds nice.Ben:Yeah.Starr:Yeah, sounds awesome. I don't know. It seems terrifying to me, but I'm sure it's a lot of fun.Ben:It helped that I have done a lot of bike riding on roads for the past several years, so I'm already comfortable with the idea of mixing it up with cars and weaving in and out of traffic and realizing that people aren't going to see me and things like that. I think if I had just gone from driving a car straight to riding a scooter in the bike lane, that would be a little more terrifying.Starr:Yeah, that makes sense.Josh:Next you're going to have to upgrade to one of the electric skateboards or a Onewheel or something, just remove the handle bars.Ben:Right, right, right. Get one of those Onewheel things.Josh:This is leading up to-Ben:Totally.Starr:We're just working up to hoverboards. I mean I commute to my backyard office, so maybe I should get a zip-line or something from the main house.Ben:I like that, yeah.Starr:... then I could be extreme.Josh:We want a zip-line at our place out into the forest.Starr:That would be fun.Ben:You could do a zip-line from your deck to the sandbox, send the kids out to play.Josh:The kids would love it. Well, I was thinking more for myself though. Screw the kids. They don't need a zip-line.Starr:There you go. That's actually not a bad idea. We're going to get-Josh:That would be cool though.Starr:... a deck in the fall.Josh:Oh, nice.Starr:I had thought it would be fun to put a fireman pole on one side or something so kids could slide down it. It's raised up a little bit but not that much. It's like a kid's sliding size.Ben:That would be totally awesome. That would-Josh:We have been loving our new deck that we have had for a month and a half or something now. It's a new deck. If you have a really old, rickety deck, a new one is a big upgrade. Also ours is a little bit larger, too, so it's like a bigger house almost.Starr:Oh, that's great. We don't even have a deck it's just like a little stairway.Josh:I think you're going to like it, Starr.Starr:I think so, too. I know, deck life. It's going to be covered. I was just like-Josh:It's just the small things.Starr:I know. All I want is to be able to go out on a nice evening or something and sit and drink a cup of tea and be outside.Ben:And think about all-Josh:I was going to say, where do you drink the sweet tea in the summer if you don't have a front porch?Starr:Yeah, that's the main problem with houses up here in the Northwest is there's not real front porches. We have one that's like a weird nod at a front porch. It's like somebody maybe had seen a front porch once when they were... They were like, "Oh, maybe I'll try and do that from memory," without really knowing what it's supposed to be like.Josh:Some of the ones in Portland have them, but they're boxed in usually, and they're the older houses-Josh:... like the old Craftsmans or whatever.Starr:The stately grand dames.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:Well, here in Kirkland we're destroying all those old houses and putting in-Starr:Thank God.Ben:... townhouses.Josh:Hell, yeah.Ben:I drove by one this morning. This morning was the first morning since I got my scooter that I actually didn't ride the scooter because it was raining and the ground was wet. I was like, "Ah, I don't want to deal with that this morning." So I just drove. I drove past this house that... Well, yesterday it was a house. Today, it's a pile of sticks because they sold the lot, and they're going to split it into probably, I don't know, four lots and put in some townhouses. It's always a sad thing, but people got to have a place to live.Starr:Yeah, it's a shame. They tore down a house on my block, too, except it was a condemned house. It looked like a gingerbread fairy house that you'd find on just a random stroll in the woods where you'd go inside and you'd find just a delicious meal laid out on the table just waiting for you. So I'm a little sad it's gone just for, I guess, the storytelling aspects, the mythology of it. I guess it's probably best not to just have a condemned structure hanging out.Josh:I still do feel like Ida's is missing out with your telling of that story. I feel a little sad for you all.Starr:I know. I know.Ben:You're totally missing the threat possibility there. Like, "Don't misbehave or I'll send you over to the gingerbread house."Starr:Oh my god, yeah. Yeah, lots of great ways to traumatize my child.Ben:Speaking of traumatizing children, I was going through Twitter the other day, and the Washington State Department of Health had a tweet. I don't remember what the tweet was, but they had a GIF embedded in it. It was Stimpy from Ren & Stimpy as a scene from the show. I was like, "That's from the Department of Health? My generation is now in charge."Starr:With the Twitter account at least.Ben:We're now putting in-Josh:Yeah, exactly.Ben:That was the weirdest... It's like, "I'm an adult." That was a weird, weird experience.Josh:It is kind of strange when the people in charge start looking more and more like you until you realize they're just like-Ben:They're just little kids, just like I am.Josh:Then you wonder why the hell they're in charge.Starr:I'm getting like Paul Ryan listening to a Rage Against the Machine vibe from this.Josh:That's what I'd be playing if I was in charge of the Department of Health's-Starr:There we go.Josh:... Twitter account.Starr:I think this week has all been a little bit... I don't know. We're all maybe a little bit having a hard time focusing. I know I have a little bit just. It seems like that happens every spring as soon as the weather gets nice and it stops being nice, then it gets nice and it stops being nice. You're waiting by the door with your kayak. You just got to get the jump on it before everybody else gets to the lake.Josh:Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. Also allergies have been kicking in lately.Starr:Oh my god, yeah.Josh:I was really on top of it this year, but then I ran out of my Zyrtec or whatever. It was on the list to replenish the supply or whatever, but I procrastinated and missed a few days. That's a huge mistake.Starr:Oh, yeah.Josh:That was this week. Now I switched to Claritin, so we'll see how... That's the big news of my week.Starr:Oh my gosh. I'm getting vaccinated later today, my second dose.Josh:Nice.Starr:Yeah.Josh:Congrats.Starr:I think I'm still going to keep wearing the KN95 respirators outside, though, just for the allergies.Josh:It's probably a good call.Ben:I was helping a neighbor with some yard work and doing a bunch of weeding and had the weed whacker out, and there's just dirt flying everywhere. I'm like, "Man, I should really wear a mask." Like, how ironic. I've got like, I don't know, a thousand masks in my house, and I'm not wearing one as I'm doing all this dusty stuff.Josh:That's a good thing to do.Starr:Oh, this is reminding me, I need to stock up before fire season.Ben:A few years ago when we had the really bad fire season, we got some Vogmasks. This was before the world knew that you were supposed to wear masks. Vogmasks are fantastic. They're a fabric mask that have the filtering stuff on the inside and highly recommend. I'll put a link in the show notes.Starr:Cool.Ben:Good stuff. When the pandemic hit, of course, they were out of stock immediately because everybody and their brother wanted one, but they've been back in stock. They're nice masks. They're really nice.Starr:Well, one thing that we have been doing is casually just checking out alternatives to Basecamp for our internal company's message board. I don't know. I feel like we're just perusing the alternatives. Honestly, it's been a little bit difficult finding just a system out there that's just a simple thread and message board without a million complex adjustments for running a forum that has thousands of people. Somebody on Twitter yesterday recommended Threads. I don't know. I think we're currently evaluating that one but no decisions yet.Josh:Is that like Twitter threads? You just-Starr:Oh, yeah, just Twitter threads.Josh:We do all of our communicating but just public threads.Starr:No, we're just going to use Twitter stories. We're just going to take some pics of ourselves in different-Josh:If we're trying to go to the opposite direction of Basecamp, we could just... Well, I guess this is like Basecamp, just do all of our communication via thought leadership.Starr:There you go.Ben:What if we did all of internal communication via TikTok?Starr:Okay, I'm getting this. I'm on board with this. We're just going to be influencers. Whoever's the most influential is going to-Josh:You know what? If our employees don't like it, too bad. You're getting a Twitter account, and it's getting verified.Starr:Yeah, they can interpret our really random TikTok video and try and figure out what it means. That's how they'll discover our disapproval.Ben:On the Basecamp thing, though, it was interesting as I was looking at it this week and realizing that the only thing that we use in Basecamp is messages along with the files. We sometimes attach files to our messages.Josh:Or email forwards.Ben:Yeah, occasionally we do an email forward. But we don't-Starr:Usually we do calendars, but we also have Google calendar.Ben:And Slack.Josh:And Notion.Ben:And notion. So we don't do to-dos. We don't do hill charts. We don't really use the project management side of the project management software that we're using. As I was looking at alternatives this week, I looked at monday.com and ClickUp and, I don't know, a few different ones. They're all these project management things. It's like, well, we don't really manage projects. We do that via chat or via a Zoom call every once in a while or via Notion. We don't use a project management tool for that. So it's like, yeah, all we really need are threads, conversations.Starr:It's the sort of thing where you could just do it in email, but it's nice having that archival ability, the ability to go back and check things out and not have it dependent on, "Oh, maybe I deleted that message by accident or whatever."Josh:Well, you could do it in Slack, but then you end up with the weird history aspect of it, and you'd have to have some sort of... You have to create a channel for it with the rules so it doesn't end up being just a chat. You have to say, "The rule of this channel is every message is a thread or a post or whatever."Starr:You kind of have to do it manually.Josh:Yeah.Ben:I did look at Twist. That was pretty cool, pretty close, but it also has chat. It's like, "well, I don't want a second chat since we already use Slack." We're not going to ditch Slack.Starr:Basecamp has chat, too.Ben:Right, and we don't use that. I guess you could use Twist. Twist is pretty nice.Starr:I think we need threaded messages, we need everything to be archived, and we need some way to see what people have been writing on lately, see what the latest activity is. That's basically it. I don't even use notifications. I get them, but I don't really... Usually by the time I see them... That's not my process. I don't look at my notifications and be like, "Oh, I'd better check this out." I check out the messages at a set set time basically.Ben:Then, like you said, the forum software, like the discourse, and it's just way, way too much. It's like, "Yeah, we get it." We just need a message board. We don't need all the dials and knobs. It's totally a dials and knobs application. I saw it in the settings, and I was like, "Whoa, okay. I'm just going to back away slowly."Starr:It could be fun, I don't know, if we want to be passive aggressive, we could shadow ban people. We could just do all sorts of fun things.Ben:But I suppose we don't have the hard requirements supporting BBCode.Starr:Isn't that a negative requirement? Supporting BBCode, I think that's a detriment. But we do have a chance to maybe, I don't know, maybe... One thing that I've always really... This really annoyed me about Basecamp is that it doesn't support Markdown, and everything we use supports Markdown, so everything I have is in Markdown. So if I write something in my personal notes, it's going to be in Markdown. If I want to transfer that to Basecamp, I got to manually format it, which is just like, "What am I? What is this? Who do you think I am?"Josh:That's my number one gripe with Basecamp, like the editor, is just a WYSIWYG editor that... I constantly... even just when I'm writing and I want to make a list and I just type a dash like I normally... in most things these days, and it just doesn't do anything in Basecamp. Then I remember, "Oh, I have to get my mouse and click on the bullet." It's a huge hassle.Ben:I can imagine your quality of life being dramatically affected by that.Josh:Yeah.Starr:You know we're developers when we're complaining about things like that.Josh:This is why I'm wearing wrist braces.Starr:Or dual wrist braces.Ben:I totally get what you're saying. I want to be able to type star, space, stuff, stuff, stuff and I get a list. Yeah, totally.Starr:It looks like threads.com, it does support Markdown, which is nice. I don't know. I haven't really played around with it a ton. Some aspects of its design, I'm not super happy. I wish the column widths were a little wider and stuff, but also I don't like certain aspects of Basecamp's design. So it's kind of a toss up for me.Ben:I did an export of our Basecamp content, and I got to say their export is fantastic. They give you an HTML page that links to a bunch of other pages per topic or project or team, whatever they call it, and the files are there. It's really well done. So I think if anyone's looking for inspiration on doing exports in their app, they should totally look at Basecamp. They nailed it. It's actually usable. You get this zip file. You open it up and bam, you can just browse through all your stuff.Starr:That's pretty great. I guess I should declare, I think maybe I started this casual looking for alternatives just because I've seen a lot of stuff online about people are angry at Basecamp. It's like, I'm not really angry at them. Well, this isn't really the point. I'm sad and disappointed in them. But also a lot of the reason why I think they have had our business and they had my business, I've stored personal stuff in a personal Basecamp account, it's just because they're trustworthy. That feeling of trustworthiness has gone down a few pegs for me.Starr:Also, I just kind of felt gross logging in there. If you haven't been keeping up with this, part of the deal is they were making fun of people's names and stuff. I don't know. Are they making fun of my name? I've got a weird name. Are they going through my stuff making fun of it? I know they have access to pretty much everything that I put into Basecamp. I don't know. Even if they're not doing that now, are they going to do that in the future? Because it seems like they're going in that direction. I don't know. It seems like they're shutting down people trying to hold them internally accountable for that sort of thing. I don't know. It's just like a gross feeling. I'm just sad about the whole thing.Josh:I personally I kind of doubt that that's like... I got the feeling that the list was more of an artifact from the past, and it had stuck around for too long. I didn't get the feeling that they're condoning that sort of activity really, but I get what you're saying. Also for me, a big factor of it, it's not even just that I'm mad at them or something, they did lose 30% of their company, and they're supporting two products now, one of which is a major infrastructure product but basically is like email. So they have operation overhead and stuff. They did just lose 30% of their company including their, what, head of strategy but basically head of product. So I just wonder, where is the product going from here? It was already, I felt, a little bit stagnating. I don't know. I think they've been working on the next version of it is what I heard. I don't know. It just seems like there are questions about just the stability from that nature, too.Ben:I'm probably in a third place from you two and I probably care the least. I'm like, "Eh, it's a message board. They can make fun of my name." Okay. I had that happen when I was 10. People do that. It's like, "Oh, get on." I have a hard time getting up the energy to care, I guess.Starr:Don't mistake me. I'm not like up in arms about it. This is more like a passive viewing. It's like, "Oh, I got to go on Basecamp and check my things. Uh, I just feel kind of crummy about it." This is-Ben:It's one of those friction things in your life you just don't need. Yeah, absolutely.Starr:Yeah, yeah.Josh:Absolutely.Starr:I'm like, this is a message board. Like, should I be having to deal with this just to go check some messages? It's ridiculous.Josh:I think all of us are really just talking these are passing thoughts we have using the product in light of the drama of the past few weeks.Starr:If we end up staying on it, I'm not going to be super upset. I'll probably get over it. I don't know. It just seems like it might be nice to try something different especially if we can get that sweet Markdown.Ben:I've been surprised that there are so few products that are just about this one use case of the simple messages. I expected there to be tons of things to try and no.Starr:Of course, in our company Notion, there's now a design document-Ben:Of course.Starr:... for a simple-Josh:Because we're going to build our own.Ben:We're going to build our own, of course. What does any good tech team do when they're frustrated with the 20 solutions on the market? They build solution number 21.Starr:Of course.Ben:Maybe we'll build that. The code name for that project is Budgie. I named it Budgie because I went to do the Google search, I'm like, "What's a communicative type of animal? What's a social animal?" I can't remember the search I did, but the first thing that got turned up was like, the most social birds. I don't know. So there's this list of birds, and budgie was the number one bird. So I'm like, "Okay, cool." Then I was like, "Well, what kind of domains are available?" Because of course when you start a project, you have to buy the domain. Before you do anything else, you got to buy that domain. Surprisingly, and perhaps not surprisingly in retrospect, every variant of budgie is taken, of course, budgie.com but also budgie.app and budgieapp.com. I'm like, "Wow. How many...?" And they're all for sale. None of them are actual products. They're all parked, and they're for sale. I'm like, so a bunch of people have had this idea about what's a social animal. I guess budgies are really popular for pets, and so they're looking for the ad opportunities with people looking for, "How do I take care of my budgie?" Anyway, just kind of a diversion.Starr:That's interesting. The first thing that pops into mind when I heard that... I like the name. It's a cute name. There's this really good Australian kids' cartoon called Bluey, and there's an episode where they find a little budgie that's injured, and it dies. So the kids have to come to terms with that. I don't know. It's just like, "Little budgie died."Josh:Bluey is one of the best cartoons ever, by the way.Starr:Yeah, Bluey. Oh, I'm glad you like it, too.Josh:It's so good.Starr:It's super good. It's super good. Basically the whole cartoon is just these kids... They're dogs but they're kids. They're just making up games to play with each other. How it works is the kids watching the show see it and that makes them want to play that game, too. So it's just not dumb TV. It gets them doing stuff outside of the TV, which is kind of nice.Josh:That's a really good analysis of the show. I hadn't thought about that aspect of it, but come to think of it, my kids totally imitate them.Starr:Oh, yeah.Josh:Climbing all over us.Starr:I now have to play every game in that show, and I've got to know them by name and what the rules are.Josh:One of the things we like about it is just they really got the sibling dynamic down. It is like our kids to a tee. It's pretty funny. Now that I think about it, maybe it's like our kids have now become the characters in the show.Ben:It's a good thing I watch the Simpsons.Josh:Oh, no. Actually we do watch the Simpsons.Starr:Is the Simpsons still on?Josh:It's on Disney+.Starr:Oh my gosh.Ben:Yeah, it is still a thing.Josh:They're still making it, too, right?Ben:Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.Starr:Wow. I don't know. I don't even know about that.Josh:We don't watch much of the Simpsons with them yet, a three and four-year-old.Josh:I don't know if I'm quite ready for a couple little Bart and Lisas.Ben:You put that off as long as you can. Well, I actually did a little bit of work this week. I was working on something, I don't know what. I noticed one of the tests was running kind of long like it was just stuck. I don't usually watch tests. I don't usually run the tests actually. I just let our CICB run the tests. I don't even worry about it. But this morning for some reason, I don't know, I was working on something, and I happened to be running the tests. I noticed one of the tests was just stuck. Like, that's weird. So I did a little investigation.Ben:It turns out that a number of our tests do some domain name server resolution because, for webhooks, when someone puts in their webhook, we want to verify that the destination is not like a private thing. They're not trying to fetch our EC2 credentials and stuff like that. So it does some checks like, is this is a private IP address? Does this domain name actually resolve, blah, blah, blah? Also for our uptime checks. Obviously, people are putting in domains for that, too. It turns out that, I don't know, maybe it was my machine, maybe it was the internet being dumb, whatever, but the domain name resolution was what was holding up the test. This happens, as you can imagine, in a variety of ways in our tests. This one test that I was running, which was only, I don't know, seven or eight tests, it was taking a minute or two minutes to run. Then I fixed this so that it stopped doing the domain name resolution, and it took two seconds.Josh:Wow.Ben:So a slight improvement to our test suite there. A quality of life improvement.Josh:Did you benchmark overall? Because that's got to be a huge improvement if it's doing that everywhere.Ben:Well, it's not doing that everywhere. I did do a push, so I have to go and check and see what GitHub... see if it dropped that time.Josh:Well, it might have been whatever was wrong with your DNS resolution in the first place that was causing it to be extra slow. Would it be faster if DNS was fast?Ben:Yeah, it could have been. I actually did some tests on my laptop at the time. I'm like, "Is my DNS resolution slow?" No.Josh:So it's-Ben:The test... I don't know what the deal was.Josh:It was just resolving a bunch of actual URLs in the test.Ben:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Josh:Yeah, that's bad. So nice work. You reminded me that I did some work this week, too.Ben:OhJosh:Very important work, I must say. I added a yak to our Slack bot to where-Josh:... if you mention the word "yak" when you're interacting with the Slack bot now it will return... You should do it in Slack, just whatever Badger bot. Say Badger bot yak me, it-Starr:Okay, I'm doing it.Josh:Okay, do it.Starr:Oh, sorry. It was the wrong channel. Hold on.Josh:You got to do it in general, I think.Starr:Come on Badger bot. Oh my god. It's a little text space yak.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Awesome.Josh:This came about because earlier this week I was just passively mentioning in chat that I'm just yak shaving. My entire life is yak shaving. That just got us talking about, why don't we have some representation of that in our chat, in our Slack? Obviously, I had to stop everything I was doing and build that right away. Of course, there were some escaping issues that came up as a result of that, so obviously I had to deploy a few hot fixes.Ben:The whole episode amuses me. I love it. I would do exactly the same thing. But also what amuses me is that we already have, as part of Slack, GIPHY, and you could just dump a picture of a yak in there. But you're like, "No, that's good enough. I must have an ASCII yak.Josh:It's got to be an ASCII yak, yeah.Ben:This is great. I love technology.Josh:I kind of miss Hubot where it would just automatically... if you just mention it. Maybe I should change our Slack bot so that it does that. So if you say "yak," a wild yak appears. By the way, that's what the text at the bottom of the ASCII yak says, a wild yak appears. I just wish it would pop up if someone just mentions it in a chat, like if they're talking about it just because-Josh:It's listening to everything, right?Starr:That would be fine.Ben:We used to have Hubot, and every time you said "ship," it would show the ship-Josh:The ship, the squirrel. But I definitely would like... annoying at times, but overall I'd say it was worth it.Ben:Totally worth it.Starr:Yeah, definitely. I do remember sometimes where things were on fire, and it's just popping up funny GIFs, and it's like, "Not now. Not now Hubot, not now.Ben:Sit in the corner. Should have had that command. Like, "Go away for a while."Josh:Or just make it a separate... Maybe we should just make this a separate bot that you don't have to have any ops channel. Maybe this'll be our next product.Starr:Oh, there you go. It's like when you mention yak, it turns into an Oregon trail-type hunting scene, and you have to shoot the very slow pixel at it.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative). I do love this aspect of our business of being... I assume it's like a side effect of being small. I don't know. I'm sure large teams also do this, I didn't spend a day on this, but spend a day just doing something completely useless. I like that we can do that-Ben:Yes, it is.Josh:... and the total lack of responsibility, to be honest.Starr:Is there a total lack of responsibility? I don't know. I don't know.Ben:I think you could argue that there is a total lack of responsibility.Josh:Maybe relatively.Starr:Maybe.Josh:I think we're speaking relatively.Starr:Relatively? Well, there's responsibility to customers. I don't know. Do they count? Nah.Ben:Speaking of being a small company, just because of a recent acquisition of one of our competitors, I had gone to look at what some of our other competitors, what status they were, and I was just blown away with how many employees our competitors have. It's really amazing.Starr:What are they doing with all those people? Are they paying...? Do they have a professional volleyball team or something?Josh:Not in the past year.Starr:Well, they play over Zoom.Josh:It's a professional pong league now.Starr:There you go.Ben:We have five employees. The competitor that has the closest number of employees comes in at a hefty 71. Then the largest number that I found was 147 employees. That's impressive.Josh:With the competitor, the first one that you mentioned with the 70 something employees, and I assume over $100 million in funding, were they the ones that were recently bragging on Twitter about how much more usage they have than everyone else?Ben:I don't know because I don't remember seeing that bragging.Josh:They were. It was kind of funny. Yeah, you would probably be the major player.Starr:That's something I definitely learned throughout the course of running this business is that a company that has tens or, I don't know, hundreds of, did you say $100 million, that's a lot-Josh:It's a lot.Starr:... of funding can do more work than three people even if those three people are very, very good. It's-Ben:That's right.Starr:They can do more work, and that's all right. We're just going to have our little garden patch over here. It doesn't matter if ConAgra is a mile down the road. They can do their thing. We can do our thing.Ben:As long as they don't let their seeds blow into our farmland, right?Starr:Oh, yeah, definitely. Let me just ask you a question. When it comes to buying your strawberries for your traditional summer strawberry shortcake, are you going to go to that wonderfully, just delightful artisanal farm down the road, or are you just going to slide over to ConAgra and, I don't know, get some of their strawberry-shaped objects?Ben:I got to say, I love roadside fruit stands. Those are the best. When cherry season happens here in Washington, going and grabbing a whole mess of cherries from some random person that's propped on the side of a road, I mean it's awesome.Starr:My favorite ones are the ones have no... if you stop and think about it... I used to live in Arkansas. One time I was walking by and there was this roadside fruit stand just with oranges. It was like, "Hold up. Hold up. Oranges don't grow in Arkansas. What is this?" I don't know if he just went to Costco and just got a bunch of oranges or maybe he did the Cannonball Run from Florida straight up-Josh:Road trip.Starr:... and was selling oranges all the way up. There was some explaining to do.Ben:I didn't realize until I was saying it, but it really does sound ridiculous that you're going to go and get some fruit items from some random person on the side of the road. But I love roadside fruit stands. They're great.Starr:Oh, yeah.Josh:I don't know. In this day and age probably, yeah.Josh:Maybe things should be more like that. Maybe that would solve some problems.Ben:Well, coming back to the front porch thing, do you know that country song, If the World Had a Front Porch?"Starr:No, I don't.Ben:Definitely have to link it up in the show notes. It's all about if the world had a front porch like we did back then, then things would be different. People would be more friendly. We'd be chatting with our neighbors. Things would just be overall good.Starr:Yeah, totally.Josh:We'd all know each other.Starr:Is that true? Is that true?Ben:I got to say, I grew up in the Deep South. I did not have a front porch and none of my friends had a front porch because we all lived in the same neighborhood and all the houses were the same, but we were all still pretty friendly-Starr:Oh, there you go.Ben:... even though we didn't have front porches.Starr:Well, I had a front porch and people were assholes, so I think the correlation between front porches and nice people is weak.Ben:The song If I had a front porchJosh:.Isn't it more like a metaphor? I don't know.Starr:You could say the internet's the world's front porch and look how great that's worked out.Josh:If you just build a front porch-Starr:I'm sure it's a nice song. I don't mean to make fun of the song. I'm sure it's a good song.Josh:You build a front porch that the entire population of the world could fit on, just see how that goes. That's what we-Starr:It's like, "Oh, shit. We deforested the Amazon to get the wood for this."Ben:We should name our little message board product Front Porch.Starr:Front porch, ah, that's nice. You could have add-ons to that. Like for upgrades, you could get the rocking chair or the whittling knife.Ben:Yeah, and the sweet tea-Starr:The sweet tea, yeah.Ben:... or the mint julep.Starr:Can I ask you a question? Was sweet tea a thing when you were a kid?Ben:Yes.Starr:Do people refer to it as like, "Oo, sweet tea," as a saying?Ben:No.Starr:Okay, that-Ben:They'd just refer to is as tea.Starr:Okay, thank you.Ben:There was no other tea. It was just that.Josh:But it was sweet.Ben:Yeah, it was sweet, of course.Starr:Yeah, of course. It's-Ben:That's the only tea that existed. None of this Earl Grey hot business, no, no, no.Starr:I just noticed, I don't know, around 2007 everybody started talking about sweet tea. It's like, "What? What's this?" Ben:Yeah, totally. It's a Southern Thing, on YouTube, their channel, is pretty funny. They go into the sweet tea thing quite a bit. If you want some additional context, do some research on that whole aspect. You can go and watch that YouTube channel. I'll have to link it up in the show notes.Starr:Yeah, I'll check that out. Well, would you gentlemen like to wrap it up? I think I've got to start... I'm going to be Southern here. I'm fixing to get ready to think about going to my vaccine appointment.Ben:Jeet yet? You know that joke? Have you heard that?Starr:I haven't heard that joke. What?Ben:It's like, oh man, two southern guys, one's like, "Jeet yet?"Starr:Ah, did you eat yet? Okay, yeah.Ben:"No. Y'want to?"Starr:I haven't been back in a while.Josh:Did you eat yet?Starr:I haven't been back in a while.Ben:Oh, good times. Sometimes I miss the South but not during the summer.Starr:One of my favorite words, I think it might be a local Arkansas word, is tump. It's a verb, tump. It's the action of tipping something over and dumping out its contents. The perfect use case is a wheelbarrow. Like, you tump out the wheelbarrow. I'm sorry. Tump out the wheelbarrow.Ben:Totally.Josh:I am learning so much on this episode, by the way-Starr:There you go.Josh:... about the South.Josh:It's great. I'm learning more about-Josh:This is your second vaccine appointment, right?Starr:Yeah, it's the second one.Josh:Second and final. Well, for now.Starr:So I'm ready for it to hit me. I'm like, "Bring the storm.Josh:Yes, it hit me.Starr:Bring it on."Josh:Mine was like a 48-hour ordeal, but back to normal now. I feel great.Starr:That's good. You got your super powers.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Well, good luck with that.Starr:Thank you. Maybe one day we'll be able to have a conclave in person again, although I might need the support of a therapist or something because just like... I mean I like y'all, but I don't know if I'm over the droplets yet.Ben:You can still wear masks.Starr:Okay, that's good. Thank God, okay. All right, I will talk to y'all later.

Here is the exciting final part of this special three episode series! On this episode, Russell and Josh talk quite a bit about the new book Russell is currently working on! The new book will be the first (of possibly many) personal development book that Russell has written. We also get to hear why Russell loves to write books and why he thinks everyone should write one. So listen in to the final part of Russell and Josh’s “Outwitting The Devil” interview. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody. This Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the third and final episode from the Outwitting The Devil interview with Josh Forti. Hopefully you enjoyed the first two episodes. If you missed any of them, go back and listen to episode one, two and this is part three of three. In this one, Josh started asking me questions about my new books. Why I was so excited about Outwitting The Devil, by how I'm using this? Why I'm writing my fourth book and a bunch of other really cool things. So I hope you enjoy it. And you've enjoyed this interview series, please let me know, let Josh know. The best way to do that is take a picture of any of these on your phone, post them on your social media and tag me and him and let us know what you thought about the episodes. Thanks again, you guys. I appreciate you all for listening with that said, let's queue up the exciting conclusion of the Josh Forti, Russell Brunson Outwitting The Devil Podcast interview. Josh Forti: Okay. I want to do this because we're talking about all these amazing books and I don't know, this is probably like two, three weeks ago. Maybe it's a little bit longer that. You start hinting on Instagram about this book. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh. There's another book? What could it possibly be?" And then last week I'm out here and you started telling me about it and what it is. Russell: Showing you the deal. Josh: It's not a marketing book. It's the next piece and it's your first ever... And I don't want to spoil it for them. I'm going to say it's like your first ever take at personal development. Talk to us about this book. When's it coming out? How did this come about and the details of that, because I'm super, super excited for it. Russell: I think it was my only, hopefully. But I said that about Dot Com Secrets too. Josh: I don't believe that at all. There's going to be a trilogy for... Russell you're going to be writing books till you die dude. Russell: I don't know. Writing is so painful but this one, again, it's me coming back. We launched Traffic Secrets. The world goes chaotic and I have more time and I'm trying to just occupy my mind. Josh: Which by the way, how perfect time. My heart was completely broken when you had to cancel the Traffic Secrets event because I was supposed to speak to there. I was like, "No." But how perfect of a timing was Traffic Secrets when- Russell: There are pros and cons of it. It was really good from a selling book standpoint. It was really hard for making New York times bestseller list, which we actually hit, which I'm still freaked out about. It was tough because Amazon wasn't shipping books. Things weren't shipped, all sorts of chaos. They said books weren't essential and so like it was hard to hit lists because you'd sell 10,000 copies of books in a week but Amazon was waiting two, three, four weeks to ship them because it wasn't... The way that the lists work is, how many did you sell in retail outlets? How many do you sell on USA today? All the things. And so when you have the big push, but then some books aren't being counted four or five weeks later because Amazon doesn't consider them essential. They're not sure when they can glut. Normally it takes 10,000 books or something to hit a bestseller list. We hit over 100,000 to be able to do it. It was way harder, way more stressful, but we got it. But it was easier to sell because I had more time. Anyway, a lot of pros with that. Plus it was crazy because in the beginning of the book I talked about there's a storm coming and then literally it was like, we're in the middle it. You should give this book right now... Josh: Literally right now. Russell: I think I'm similar to you. I think a lot of people in our community where it's just like, my mind is always spinning. I can't stop. Josh: I cannot shut it off ever. Russell: It's like there's got to be something I got to be thinking about. And again, it was harder me to find stuff for me to geek out on inside of marketing and business. It was just hard to find the next... I don't know. Every level you get to, it's harder to find the next level. I'm sure there's time where Michael Jordan's like, "I can't find people to push me anymore." Where do you go? And it's just like- Josh: Yeah. Like Tom Brady in the NFL just completely dominating every team that's out there. Yeah. That's right. Russell: Anyway. So not that I'm that level or anything. Josh: Right. Right. Right. Russell: For me it gets harder and harder- Josh: Likewise. Russell: To find things. I have to dig so hard to find the gold. And so I started just looking again at some of these things. And that's when I stumble on this book and just like, every page is gold and it's like I'm lit up again. I'm on fire. Again, I talked about earlier, for me one of my highest values is ROI. What's my return on my investment. So I'm learning these things. I'm growing myself personally, but I'm feeling empty because I'm not sharing them. So it's like, "What's the platform?" That's why I'm like, "Everyone go read this." I need to have this conversation with somebody. So having Dave reading it, everybody can get to read it I'm trying to read so I can get this conversations. Then when you're like, "Hey, do you want to talk about a podcast?" I said, "Yes." You forged some of this stuff because it's in me and if I can't contribute, it seems like I'm wasting it. And so there was this, there was other things. And I started looking more and more. Right now I've got five kids. Three of my kids are teenagers now and teenagers have been way harder than I ever thought or expected. It's weird. Kids are really fulfilling, but man teenagers have been just... It's different for me. I'm feeling like I have to grow to understand myself, but to also understand them. And what I envisioned my kids as teenagers are going to be what it is, has been so much different. I think for me, at times it got me depression, sadness and these things. And I was like, "I shouldn't be depressed this time in my kid's life. This is the greatest time I could be with them but I got to shift my mind." So it was me trying to do some work on myself, to fix myself. Not fix myself, but to get myself in a spot where I could enjoy the season. And then number two is how do I serve them now at this point? Because I envisioned the way I was going to serve my kids was when my dad did. Where I was like, he drove me to wrestling practice and we traveled the world, we worked out super hard because that's what I needed and I assumed that that's what my kids are going to need and it's not. That's not what they want. They want almost the opposite of those things. I'm like, "But I have these gifts. These skills I can give you." They are like, "I don't want them." I'm like, "I can help you start a business." Like, "We don't care." I get them value money because they've always had it. It's like all these things. Every gift that I have, it's like all my unique abilities I want to give my kids, they don't want it. So I'm learning this thing of well, instead of me trying to give my kids these things that I think that were so valuable to me. It's like, I have to sit back and understand what's actually valuable to them, which is so much harder and I'm learning this process. And so as I'm going through this lens of trying to learn these things, understand them, trying to figure them out for myself and I'm stumbling upon things like this and other things. It just got to a point where I was like, "I need to write this book first off for myself." If anyone who's done it, there's this weird thing as you start reading, you start seeing connections. You don't see any other spot. I feel like God opens up insights to you. They're just magical. Like I remember- Josh: When you start writing. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Yeah 100%. Russell: You have to get deep in a topic, you have studied all these things to figure things out. And I remember the first time I really understood this is, after I finished Traffic Secrets, I wanted to reedit DotCom and an Expert Secrets to publish the trilogy. So I went back. I remember reading those books and I was like, "Where did this stuff come from?" I was like, "This is good crap. I don't remember saying this or thinking that." I couldn't remember and- Josh: Interesting. Russell: It's the weirdest thing going back and fighting things. Somehow that was given to me because that was not something that I just intuitively knew. And I feel like for me, I wanted to start the book journey because I'm searching for these answers. The premise of the book is not, "I have all the answers, let me give them to you." I'm in the season where I'm going through it again and let me share through I'm learning on this journey because I'm learning some amazing things. And as I'm sharing as I'm writing them, again these insights keep popping in and it's fascinating. So I'll be doing something, I'll be doing something and I have a doodle. I'm like, "Oh my gosh." I run to Dave I'm like, "Look at this." He's like, "What am I explaining?" He's like, "I never saw it before." New to that. It showed up when I'm in this intense time. And so it's been fun as I'm writing it because these insights are coming at a speed that they don't normally come in. Josh: And I think also- Russell: It's really funny. Josh: I think... Hold that train of thought. I want you to keep going on that. But I've noticed that as well, when it comes to reading books. Reading a book and then applying the book, those are two very different things. I have read Expert Secrets, Dotcom Secrets, Traffic Secrets. And I'm going through, I've not read the hardcover of Expert Secrets. I've only read the soft cover. So right now I'm going through and yes, two nights ago I started it and it's- Russell: You started the hardcover? Josh: Yeah. I'm going through, I'm listening to it and I'm reading it and I'm taking notes- Russell: Get the hardcovers. They're way better than softcovers. Josh: So I'm going through all this stuff. For the last four or five, six months, all I've been doing, I have no front end products of my own. I'm not building anything. All I'm doing is working with big campaigns on the backend. It's like full out stuff. We're doing stuff with cash phones. All these stuff is up and I'm going through and actually inboxed you. I was like, "Dude. People say they've read this book but they haven't." They've read the words, but it's totally different when you actually experience it. And you're watching where it all fits in and you start to see how it all clicks together. So that broke from the reverse angle of when you're writing it and trying to put it on in together is what you're talking about here. Russell: Yes. It's super fascinating. So it's been fun. I'm excited. So my goal, I'm trying to get it done by summer for it to be a launch in March. So if you published traditionally, this publishing schedule is really, really long. So if you are going to read it in March, I'd have to have it done by June. Josh: If we want to read in March of next year, you have to have it done by June this year. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Dang. Russell: So that's where I'm at. So I'm also with the first section of the book and there's four sections. Back then this month I spent the section number one and then that's where I'm at. Josh: Do we get to know what it's called? Do you have a title yet? Russell: I do. I don't want to show a title yet because I don't want someone going and- Josh: Oh, that's true. Russell: "You guys all suck." And buys those domains up and they start like SEOing me and beating me and all that stuff. But it's going to be cool. It's a study of two things. So I'll give you this part. This is the subtitle. So subtitle, something Tony Robbins talks a lot about, but it's the science of achievement and the art of fulfillment. These two things. How do achievers achieve? And then how do you actually get fulfilled? Because it's fascinating. I think- Josh: Interesting. Russell: I see my own life. I achieve something thinking that, "When I achieve this thing, I'm going to be fulfilled and happy and everything." And you achieve the thing and you're like, "I'm not happy." And you figure that achievement and fulfillment, they don't work hand in hand. It's a science of achievement, which that's why science achieves more scrutiny. It's like, "Here's a step-by-step process to get this result." I want to be state champion wrestler here's a step by step process. Boom, got it. I want to be a known American step-by-step process. Got it. I want to start a business, step-by-step. Science. It's not thinking, you just follow a process and you get it. So for me, achievements always come easy. Anything I ever want in my life I've achieved it because there's a science. I figured out. Fulfillment's art, it's different. It's not follow these steps and you become fulfilled. The yin yang of these two things. And it's so fascinating. I've been going deeper into it and seeing the pattern appear over and over and over again, all these different things. And how do you apply it to your life? And there's so many cool things in this book that don't necessarily talk about science of achievement and fulfillment but they're all in here. The patterns in here over and over and over again. So it's pulling it from all these sources and showing it to everybody, that's what the book's going to do and then how to weave it all into aspects of your life anyway. So that's- Josh: One of the things and I'm sure you'll talk about it, but will be the balance of those two things. Because it's early on in my very young career of being 27 years old, but it was all about achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve. And there's always my mom's voice in the back of my head, it's like, "Things won't make you happy." "I know mom." Russell: Yes they will. Josh: Yeah. Yes they will. And then you get there. There have been moments in my life where right now in this moment I am completely fulfilled or I'm completely content and it's just like, I don't know what could make my life better. And it's not when I achieved anything, it's not when I did anything. But in that moment, whenever I take a step back and think about that moment, I have very little drive to go achieve anything more. And there's that balance of how do I stay fulfilled and content while also being driven to go achieve. Because for me and this is something I'd wrestled with and talked to Katie about it. And I'm like, "It's either one or the other. I can't be..." And she's like, "There's always another option. There's never black and white." And so balancing the two of those and understanding that. Like you said, they don't go hand in hand. They're separate things, I think it's really important and something that I'm trying to figure out and learn. Russell: So I got frustrated about all the times I achieve something and I'm so frustrated, why do I not feel how I thought I was going to feel and leads to depression or frustration or whatever. But when you start separating these are two different things I can achieve and I want to achieve, but how do I get fulfilled in the journey or separately from it and you start anyway. It's been fascinating and learning so many cool things and it's going to be fun to start sharing with everybody. I'm going to probably start in my podcasts, start dropping more and more things then getting deeper and deeper. More of the thoughts are going be flushed out. That's the weird thing about writing a book too, is initially I'm like, "Here's what I'm going to write." I write an outline of what the book is going to be and I write chapter number one. I was like, "Now this outline makes sense. You write that one" Chapter two. And so it's like, it's this rebuild, rebuild, rebuild. And by the time it's done, hopefully we'll find out. It'll be the perfect thing that's like, here's the frameworks you need. And for example, this whole concept here, there's a chapter that's going to be taking the frameworks from this book and this is going to be the chapter walking people through this concept of faith and fear. This doodle is a rough draft. I just tell you I sent this to you today. I'm like, "This is not the perfect doodle. I saw it. I'm not going to post it down below yet because this is partially done." It's going to be perfect by the time the book's done. I'm still thinking through and trying to get it right. And making it a simple form where I can understand it and hopefully it makes it easy for people to apply. But anyway, it's pretty cool. I think everyone should read a book. I think everybody listening should set that as a goal because when you do, just the act of writing the book will change your board. And I think anyone will understand. And when somebody asks, "What are you doing?" You're like, "I'm writing a book." Josh: That sounds very cool. Russell: There's no much cooler than that. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Okay. I know you have a hard cutoff, so I want to be respectful of that here. So I want to end with one question here and that is specifically about reading books. It's interesting. I'm pretty involved in the ClickFunnels world. Those are my people as well too. And so those are the people that follow me and that I interact with and I talk to a lot and it's always interesting when I talk to people about reading versus action. And some people have this... I feel like there's weird thought that if you're a reader, you're not an action taker, which I'm like, "That's not true. That's not how that works." But anyway, for you, if you are early on in your career, early on in you journey of building your business and your funnels and putting everything together. Do you recommend? Going back and thinking of your life, were you a big reader early on? Did you do a lot of reading or were you more action taking and looking back, would you recommend people read more, take more action? What's that balance? Because it's very easy. I know for me, I'm making time to read and then that's all I want to do. I'm like, "This is amazing." And then I'll take action. And so what's that Balance there? And what do you recommend as far as reading versus action? Russell: It's tough because some people read just because you get fulfillment or like there's- Josh: There's a good feeling that comes with reading. Russell: Comes with reading. Josh: For sure. Russell: So- Josh: It's a fake sense of accomplishment. Russell: Yes. So this is my belief. I remember when I first got started, I was reading a lot, I was listening, I was going to seminars. I remember at first it always frustrated because I was learning all this stuff and I was getting it but I had nowhere to use it and I was trying to use it all. That's why I think I launched... I can't remember. A couple of funnels by measure. It was like a 106, 116 or something funnels I launched before ClickFunnels. And that's because every idea that came to me, I was like, "I have to create something." I create this and I create this. I was creating funnel and funnel and coaching program. I joined Dan Kennedy's mastermind and they talked about, "You should have mastermind groups." So at the event I launched a mastermind group. I'm like, "You should have phone sales." We started phone sales and "You should be doing seminars." We launched a seminar. Every idea that came, I launched it. But man, I got a point where I was drowning. Because we had 8,000 things we're doing and nothing really worked. And I remember always feeling guilty because these ideas are coming to me. I'm thinking, "These are gifts from God. These are inspiration. I need to have these things." And it wasn't until... I don't remember when. But somewhere down the line, I realized that, "I don't actually have to take all these different things and do them, but I can understand them." Because I enjoy learning, understanding. So I would take them into my mind and literally put them on a shelf. I remember there's this Dan Kennedy on how to do high ticket, air exclusive program. So when we were listening to it, there's talking about franchise and this. All of a sudden, this is amazing. So I was taking it because I enjoyed the learning of it. And then I was like, "I'm not doing this right now." I'm so stretched thin, but I enjoyed the learning. So I'm flying an airplane, listening to this audio book or whatever. If I'm going to put it over here, I'm just categorizing and I put it over here in my brain. Like, "Hey. If I ever wanted to go back and do that, I know where it's at or at least put over here." So I started learning because I enjoyed learning but I didn't have to implement everything. And I've put things in these different spots. At the same time I had a very clear vision. This is definitive purpose. I had a vision. So I'm trying to execute on something I'm trying to do. So as I'm learning, when something came that crossed my mind I was like, "That's the next step. I could grab it and plug it in and I could use it." If it didn't. I'm like, "That's awesome. Put it right here. Someday I'm going to use that in future." And I talked to… James Friel and I talked about because he has a Trello board. He calls his shiny penny Trello board where anytime you have a great idea- Josh: Yeah. I have one of those. Russell: Instead of trying to implement, he puts it on his Trello boards. Keeps your ideas. I think for most entrepreneurs, every idea is like your baby, like "This is the greatest idea of all time." Josh: Yeah. I have a Trello board called Josh's brain. Russell: Oh awesome. This pre Trello because I remember getting a note card. I had three by five note cards and when I had the ideas, I put them in there, I put them there. And somebody I'm going to come back to this and I get ideas and put them there. I kept putting them there either in a note card or somewhere else. And it's crazy. And I fast forward. Man, I think it's 19 or 20 years, I'm doing this now. So whatever it is. Almost two decades. And it's really cool because when I coach people now and this is my inner circle so I have people in here I'm coaching and someone would appear on stage and they're stuck with a problem and they're frustrated. They're like, "I don't want to do this thing." And all of a sudden out of the back of my mind pops up this thing and it comes into my- Josh: Exactly. Russell: I have this thing. I'm like, "Oh my gosh. Where did that come from?" It's because I learned it. Because I read this book here, I saw this thing over here and all these things. And so I think a lot of times we have to understand that learning is fun. So enjoy it. Don't be like, "I'm not going to read because..." Reading is awesome. Read, learn, do those things, but also understand, what is your mission? Stephen Larson talked about this two funnel hiking lives ago. He called it just-in-time learning. It seems like if you are going to read the book you need... I agree with that except for this is a better pastime than watching movies. So let's read, let's study. But having your path, this is my goal, this is where I'm going to go. If you join my coaching program, we're going to talk about what's the first funnel. That's what we focus on. Don't do anything else, just focus on that. You can learn other things, but categorize them or wait until you're ready. And then as you get pieces right. I need that, I need that and figure out the next steps. I think that's how I would do the yin yang of both of those. Because I'm the same way. I'm learning so many things or study things or I find things are awesome that I'm not going to use but someday there'll be someone I come upon that that nugget is going to be the thing that unlocks something for them and they're going to super grateful. So, anyway. Josh: All right. Well man, thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. This is so much fun. We could talk for hours, but we do have to wrap it up there. We've got a little something to get to, so thank you man. I appreciate it. Russell: No worries. And hopefully all you guys, two things I want to say. Number one, I'd highly recommend reading this book and read through the lens of this. The first time I didn't know where I was going. So I was all over the place and just freaking out. But look at the lens of Faith and Fear of, I don't want to be a drifter. I want to be somebody spiritually, mentally, and physically free. Look at that and start looking at everything he talks about from this lens and just look at it as protections of you that will be there to get to the spot where you're learn 2% or how to keep yourself from becoming a drifter or if you are drifter shift yourself back. And looking at this, because it's this guide book of all the ways that the devil uses to shift you around. And when you're aware of it, man, it makes it so much more powerful. Josh: And- Russell: This is huge. Josh: The thing that I would say we didn't have time to get to it, but I would say too is understand that it's not... If you're religious, understand that there's probably going to be some things that the devil is like, "You don't need God, you don't need me." Some of the things that are going to be in there, like Russell said, 97% is good, 3% is bad. Don't let that prevent you from understanding the value and the power that's in this book because there is so much good stuff in this. And any single time that I've ever had success at anything when I look back, it follows very closely to the principles that were taught here, so anyway. Russell: That's awesome. And then wait until next March to buy my book. Josh: And I will be the number one affiliate. So hopefully you all can be number two, three, four. That's cool. That's going to be super, super cool. So Russell, thank you so much, man. I appreciate it. Love to do it again for The Book of Mormon or something like that and all right. All right guys, that's it. Russell: Thanks everyone. Josh: As always, hustle, hustle. God bless. Don't be afraid to think different because those of us who think different are going to be the ones who change the world. I love you all. See you soon. Russell: Bye everybody. Josh: See you.

Welcome to the first part of a special three episode series! On this episode, Russell and Josh start talking about the book “Outwitting The Devil” by Napoleon Hill. They discuss some of the background of how this book was published, and then go into detail about the premise and the lessons that it teaches. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. So I told you guys a couple episodes ago, I told you about one of my new favorite books, which is Outwitting the Devil by Napoleon Hill. I told you a little bit about the book and why you should read it. I told you I was doing a podcast interview with Josh Forti where he was going to ask me a bunch of questions about the book. We did that and it was really, really fun, and so I'm going to actually... I want to stream that interview to you guys over the next three episodes here on the podcast, and it's fun. The interview went way different than I thought it was going to go, and so I think you're going to enjoy it. The first part we talked about the book and the story behind it, and the breaking down the doodle and explanation, and the difference between faith and fear, some of the basic stuff. The second episode, we start talking about my biggest takeaways from the book and why personal development is important, and then Josh start asking questions about a time in my life when I used faith over fear and stuff like that. The story that came out, most people probably haven't heard this about ClickFunnels crashing and a bunch of other stuff, and so that episode two is going to be really fun for you guys. I'm excited, and episode number three is about my next book, so that was what the interview was about. It was really fun. It was a little over an hour long, and so we decided to break it up into three episodes for you guys, and so that's the game plan. So this is episode one of The Outwitting the Devil interview with Josh Forti, one of three. So when the theme song comes back, we'll cue that up. You'll have a chance to listen to the first one. Make sure you listen to all three episodes over the next week or so because I think you're going to enjoy it. The first one is really cool because you understanding why I'm so excited about this book, the biggest takeaways, but then some practical application, episode two and then episode three, we'll talk about the new book, why, what we're talking about, and a bunch of other cool stuff. So I'm excited. With that said, we’ll queue up the theme song. When we come back we'll jump into the first part of my interview with Josh Forti. Josh Forti: What's up, everybody! Russell: We're back. We're back. Josh: We are back. Russell: Four months, we're back. Josh: We're back. We're back guys. What is up? Welcome back to another episode of Think Different Theory, I'm going to claim this one, episode of Think Different Theory. Russell: And I'll probably also use it on the Marketing Secrets podcast; we'll use it for both. Josh: That's perfect, a dual episode. Guys. We are back. We were supposed to do this last week, but Russell's- Russell: Circumstances didn't allow it. Josh: Yeah. Russell was in a bad mood. So we have to do this, but guys, welcome back today. I'm really, really excited because we are discussing- Russell: One of my new favorite books. Josh: One of your new favorite books, Outwitting the Devil, which you recommended to everybody, the whole world, what? Like three months ago, four months ago. Something like that. Russell: Yeah. I'm shocked when people read it. If you haven't yet, go buy it on Amazon. There's two versions. I got to share this real quick. He'll share that while I'll tell you guys about this. Josh: Perfect. Russell: There's two versions of it. This one's got Sharon Lechter's notes, one doesn't. I'd get the one with Sharon Lechter's notes and oh, I talk to the camera here. Hey, what's up camera. And also you get the audio book. It's awesome. Because in an audio book, you can actually hear the two voices and one voice is the devil. One's Napoleon Hill. And it's amazing. Should I tell the story about the books? Josh: Okay. So actually I want to do that. I actually want to do this because how I want to open this up is, I want to take it back. Kind of take a step back because you've built Clickfunnels and now I feel like you've gone into kind of this new stage. You start reading a bunch of books and then you like geek out on Atlas Shrugged, and then you geek out on the next thing now we're at this book. So back us up, how did you find this book? Where did it come about? And then let's dive into it because I feel like context is important. Russell: Yeah. So, man, a lot of things. So obviously those who've read any of my books. I feel like I'm done. I wrote all the marketing books, I'm out of secrets. That's it. Trilogy is done. Work is finished. It's over. Josh: Guys, we're done with Russell forever. Russell: But then for me it's like, I don't know. I think in any area of life there's a point where you get mastery and it gets harder and harder to find new things. So there's all these incremental things, but there's not a whole bunch of new stuff I can discover, like oh my gosh, ah, freak out. Josh: Right, something about marketing you've never seen before. Russell: Yeah, so it's harder. And so for me, I'm a learner. I'm always pursuing education ideas and things. And so I started just kind of re geeking out on personal development stuff just because I miss it. I'm trying to think about things in my life. And so I was going through a bunch of different things and rereading a bunch of books I read back a decade ago, like Think and Grow Rich. Which by the way, that's kind of ... This Is the first edition printed Think and Grow Rich. Russell: Josh knows I'm kind of a geek with old books. You guys will see why more in about 18 months from now. We're doing some cool things, but this is first edition Think and Grow Rich. Think and Grow Rich was written by Napoleon Hill in 1937. It's the most, outside of the Bible, it's the highest personal development book ever sold. And it's really, really good. And so I was reading that again and then people kept tell me about this other book. And there's a lot of books. Right here, this is Think and Grow Rich, this is the Laws of Success. I'm trying to acquire a first edition Laws of Success, which is, I was telling you it's insane, expensive. Josh: It's crazy expensive. But Russell's over here, geeking out on all the books. Russell: I love old books. Josh: Actually a side note on that guys, the very first time ... So this is back at, I think it was the first or second offer. I can't remember mind lab mind, the big one. Offer mind you spoke at it and you were coming off stage. And I walked out and it was you and Dave and I like ran up to you as you were getting on the elevator. Do you remember this? Russell: Yes I do. Josh: And remember I was like Russell. And I didn't know you hardly at all this time. We kind of knew, basically, we had had some interactions. I was like, I'm trying to dream 100 you, what's a good gift? And you're like old books. Ding, the elevator door shuts. You're on the elevator, I'm off the elevator. And I was like, all right, that's all I have to go on. Russell: And you sent me some amazing old books. Josh: Yeah. Russell: So, very very cool. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Yeah. And so I just, again, I'm kind of going back through and I'm relearning from Tony again and from other people and stuff like that. But then this book keeps coming up and for some reason the title didn't grab me. I was like, Outwitting the Devil, it sounds stupid. I didn't want to read it. It never even crossed my mind as a book I was going to read. It's not something that I would really care about. And then one day I downloaded it on Audible. I download almost all the books I buy physical copies of- Josh: A hundred percent. Russell: I do it Audible too just in case. And I'm one of those kind of people that when I'm in a mood for something, that's why when I travel, it drives my wife crazy. I'll bring a backpack with like 40 books. I don't know what mood I'm going to be in. Russell: And she's like, why don't you bring a Kindle? I'm like, because like paper and I wanted to be able to hold it and see where the bookmarks at. Josh: Yeah, yeah. Russell: And the same thing is true with Audible. So I just download all the Audible just in case. And so one day I was working out, I was trying, anyway. This is a longer story, but I was trying to buy success.com at the time, it ended up falling through. I didn't get it. But Napoleon Hill was actually one of the original, he wrote for success in 1980. In fact, hold, this is kind of cool. This is Napoleon Hill's, he started a magazine. He actually talks about it in Outwitting The Devil. So he started a magazine called Hill's Golden Rule. This is one of the original, this one is from 1919. But anyway, he was also an author in the original Success Magazines back in 1800, I have a whole bunch of copies, actually 1800's and Napoleon Hill's articles in Success Magazine. Josh: Dang, that's so cool. Oh my gosh. Russell: So I had just gotten some of these things. And then one morning I was working out and I was looking at my playlist and Outwitting the Devil popped up. And for some reason I was like, all right. So I clicked it and it start talking about this magazine, talked about Hills Golden Rule, talked about Success Magazine, which I was trying to acquire the time and all these things. I was just like, oh my gosh. And so the very beginning he tells the story, he's kind of telling the story, I don't really know what I was going to go. He's telling this story about his life. And then all of a sudden transitions to this conversation is happening with the devil. Russell: And as you know, you've read it. Josh: It's so good. Russell: It's just like, I started getting like, oh my gosh. Why did nobody tell me about this before this is ... Let me put in perspective, I've read a lot of personal development books. I love Think and Grow Rich. This is so much better than Think and Grow Rich. Josh: It is, I agree with that. Russell: And, do you want me to tell the story behind or do you want to tell? What's the... Josh: Full behind... Russell: Just what the book is, where it came from. This is an amazing story. Josh: I just want to pass it over to you because I have questions about it. So I want to kind of hear things from your perspective here on this thing. I think a lot of people do as well. It's funny though, because when you put this on, gosh, I kind of picked up reading halfway through last year. I made a public declaration when I graduated from high school, I literally, I bought a pickup truck. Russell: I don't read anymore. Josh: And I put down the tailgate, I got up there, I stood up, I held my arms there and I literally yelled audibly out loud. I will never read another book ever again, outside of the Bible. Literally I was so done with reading my mom made us do all this reading in high school. Right. I was like, I'm so done. And thankfully that's not the case. Russell: Do you know what that reminds me of? I got done wrestling my senior year in college and after my last match. I've publicly said I will never run again. And then I gained 60 pounds, now I run. Josh: And now you run. Yeah. Russell: We had a similar experience. We were like- Josh: We'll never do that again. But six months into last year I started picking up reading more or whatever. And actually I've been averaging three books a month this year, which is freaking awesome. But, I'm halfway through. I can't remember what book it was. I see on your Instagram story. And you're like, everybody read this book. Russell: Every chapter, it was like, oh my gosh. Josh: Right. So I immediately go and buy it. And as soon as I finished the next book, I read the whole thing. And I think I read it in two sittings, right? Like the whole day I was like, oh my gosh, this is so good. So I do. I want you to kind of break it down for those people out there that don't know what it is. It is a story of Napoleon Hill interviewing the devil essentially. So I have a lot of questions just after you kind of explain the context of it all, but why don't you just kind of give people some context around what that is. Russell: By the way I spent last little while trying to take the entire book and put it into a framework like I do. So that's what this is back here, we'll talk about this. And some of the things… Josh: We have this here too. Russell: That hopefully serve as a framework for you guys. If you decided to read, here's some stuff to help. But, okay. Russell: So there's the story. So Think and Grow Rich was published in 1937, the next year. And if you've read Think and Grow Rich, there's times in here where he's like having conversations, people would pass away. People died, he's thinking about them and having these, in his head, these conversations that they come into the book. So it's pretty cool. So in 1937, 1938 he writes the manuscript for Outwitting the Devil. Josh: Yep. Russell: And so it's a year later. And the premise of this is literally, he talks about, I don't know if this is a little interview or if this was a physical, just something in my head, but this is the conversation I had with the devil. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And it's less of just an interview, but more like he's putting the devil on trial. He's on trial and he's like, you have to answer my questions. These are my questions. Josh: And the during this time, the devil, I can't remember how he explained it in the book, but the devil is forced to have to tell the truth 100% of the time. So any question that he asked him, he cannot lie. He has to be able to tell the truth. And that's one of the questions in there is he even says, it doesn't matter if you're religious or not. It doesn't matter whether you think it's a metaphor or whether you think he actually sat down and interviewed the devil. No matter what it was, the principles still reign true. Which is why I love the book. And you basically take that element out of it. Don't let that belief get in your way, still read the book. So, yeah. And 1938 is when he wrote the book, but didn't get published in 1938. Russell: Yeah. So imagine, this is one of the coolest stories ever. So 1938, he writes the book and in the book, he actually talks about the devil's like, if you ever publish this, it'll destroy your life, it will destroy your family it will destroy everything, because all the people fighting against this are going to destroy you. And so he finishes this book a year after Think and Grow Rich, has the manuscript. And he's so scared. He never actually publishes it. So he ends up dying. I think in '78, I believe. He passes away. His wife, second person gets the manuscript. She reads it. And she's like, I'm not publishing this. Josh: Yeah. Russell: She refuses to publish it. Later, she passes away. Napoleon Hill foundation gets the book. It gets to them, they read it and they're like, oh my gosh, this is probably the best thing he's ever written. Russell: And then they actually contacted, this is cool. I talked to Sharon Lechter last week. So I called Sharon Lechter. She's right here. Says- Josh: No way. That's awesome. Russell: Right here. Sharon Lechter. So she was probably the fourth person to ever read the manuscript. They sent it to her, what do you think we should do with this. So she says she got it. She sat down and she was reading it. And she's like, this is one of the greatest things ever published. If you don't know Sharon Lechter. She was the one who helped with all of the Rich Dad, Poor Dad books. She was the CEO of the company for a long time. She helped build the biggest financial education company on the planet. And now she's coming over here to this mission and she takes his book and she's the one who takes it, gets the manuscript ready for print. Inside of here's got her notes, which is kind of cool. Her notes taking it from, it was published back in, the last big crash what were the two- Josh: Eight, yeah. Russell: 2008. So she's sharing things in here and how they relate back then, which is kind of cool. But anyway, so she published it. Josh: And it's in the audio book as well, she kind of goes through and comments. Russell: She jumps in. Josh: There's a devil's voice. And then there's Napoleon Hill's voice. And then there's her kind of commenting, which is actually kind of cool through the thing. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Yeah. Russell: It is kind of cool to make it natural or make it kind of tied to the time. But I think even nowadays, a decade later, whatever, it's even more- Josh: Well. Russell: Applicable. Josh: And that's, what's crazy is you read the book and if you didn't know that it was written back in 1938, you'd be like, oh, he's totally talking about right now. Russell: Yeah. Josh: You have no clue he's talking about- Russell: Because some of the references he's talking about Hitler and Mussolini. All of these people and we're like, okay, well, the dictators nowadays are different, but that was who- Josh: Right. Russell: The things that were happening. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Right then in time. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. And just the craziness of fear and economic turmoil and depression. I'm like, huh. Sounds like where we're at now. So anyway. Russell: So that's, the cool story about it. It's just this book that this manuscript has been lost for generations from literally the best personal development author of our time. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And to bring it back. I was just visualizing myself as Sharon Lechter reading that original. Can you imagine just reading the manuscript and be- Josh: Being the first part of the third or fourth person to ever read it? Russell: So insanely cool. So anyway, that's kind of the backstory and then you get into it and it's fascinating. So that's the story behind the book. Josh: That's why you guys have to read it, how cool is that? Yeah, it's super, super cool. And kind of what I'd love to do, I want you to go through, because I think this is important. For the sake of time, I mean, we could probably talk for four or five or six hours on this book. But for the sake of time, the time constraints, I think this summarizes the book super well. Josh: And so I'd love to go through the book. I'd love to see your interpretation of the framework and kind of explain it. And then, it's funny because whenever I go through personal development books, you see everything through the world of funnels and marketing and things like that. I cannot read a personal development book without looking at whether or not the fundamental principles of it are true or what they align with. Right. So they align with Christianity or Atheism or whatnot. So I have questions about, because I'm a huge fan of the book. You're a huge fan of the book. Right. But there's some certain things in here that he talks about that I have questions that I'd love to know your opinion on. So I think if we go through and kind of talk through the overall context of the book here and then kind of pivot towards that towards the end, I think that would be awesome. Russell: Well, one thing to just kind of address that before we get too deep into it. Because I know a lot of people have this fear of reading, anything of what if I don't believe it. Well, I'm not this belief therefore, I can't. And I'm such a big believer in there's truth in most things, I think there's truth in all things. And I can read something and be like, oh my gosh, 97% of this, I believe spot on. 3% I don't really agree with, but I can still appreciate the 97% and love it and enjoy it and be grateful for it. In fact, I do the same thing in my personal relationships, I can talk to somebody I don't agree 100% with. And I still like them afterwards, which is something I think our world needs to learn how to do better. But. Josh: Yeah, even if you lose Bitcoin bets. Russell: Hey, now. Let’s talk about frameworks… That's 3% of him I can’t stand right now. Anyway, okay. So the way my mind works, when I read it ... So I read the book first time and I was just in this whirlwind of, oh my gosh, there's so many things. And I was re listening today as I was working out, trying to ... This is a framework, but there's so many levels and layers and things go deeper and deeper and deeper. So the first time I listened to it, I was just kind of overwhelmed because there's so much good stuff. Russell: And the second time I was going through it, I was like, okay, if I was trying to doodle this to explain to somebody what's the overarching- Josh: Yeah, what's the promise of the book? Russell: The framework. Josh: Yeah. Russell: That's just kind of the way if you've read any of my books, that's how my brain works. I read like 30 books and from there I'm like, okay, this is what I think they're saying. So this is kind of the premise. I'll walk up to the board and kind of show you guys this. But the basic concept is all of us, me, you, anybody. Right. We have a decision comes to us and we've got two choices every single time. And that's kind of where this whole thing starts from. So should I go over there? Josh: Yeah. Yeah. You take my mic too. Russell: Okay, I'm taking mic. So I know you guys can't see this perfectly and this is going to be the words they're all small, so I'll kind of talk through it and hopefully that'll work. So here's me or you. And this is us and we have decisions come to us. They come to us. Am I audio right here? Can you hear it? Cool. So we have decisions all the time. So the biggest thing is, if something comes to us, we can make decisions based on one or two things. Right. We're either making decision based on faith or based on fear. That's it, those are the two things. And obviously, especially in the last year, we've noticed, I think that this has been amplified. Where do most of us make our decisions? I think the way you'll find is that people traditionally make their decisions one way or the other. Russell: Either they make all their decisions towards fear, or all of them towards faith. And so that's something start thinking about personally yourself, as I start thinking about when I'm making decisions, am I doing them through fear or through faith? And I feel like people, not a hundred percent, I think you tend to favor one of these. And it's important because when you start understanding Satan, how the devil is using these as tools, it starts helping you think, I got to start making my decisions differently or else I'm doing what he wants. So I'm going to start on the fear side. So his initial goal is to get people to make decisions based on fear. If he can get that, you become what he calls the drifter. So drift or somebody who's drifting through life- Josh: I'm going to stop you really quick. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Really quick. I'm just going to take my mic back really quick. I think one of the things I want to just cover here really quick, is kind of the premise of how this, even before we dive into this, how this came about. Because in the book, basically Napoleon Hill asks the devil. He's like, Hey, listen, I want to understand what you, as the devil are doing to try to control people. Because in the book, one of the things that he claims, and I guess you have it up here, the 98%. Is that the devil controls 98% of people on the earth by getting them to do drifting, which we'll talk about here in a second. Right? And so the whole premise of this book is basically Napoleon Hill is interviewing the devil and getting the devil to explain how the laws of the universe work and basically how the devil is using those laws of the universe to pull people towards him. And then he also draws contrast of that, of how God uses them to draw people towards God. And so it's basically understanding the laws of success, the laws of the universe, how they work and it's, what is it? The secrets of freedom and success. So if you understand he's asking questions with the specific intention of trying to figure out how the world works, how the devil is using those, and then how we can use those things to ultimately have success if we can figure out how they work. Is that? Russell: Perfect. Josh: Good. Yeah. Russell: Cool. Thank you for adding that. That was awesome pre-frame and I think that ... Hope that works. When you understand that it's like, that is this that's the war we're in every single day, right? I mean, it's every movie. Right and wrong, good and evil. Right? That's the fight. Right? And so the devil here is showing, this is my playbook. This is how I get people to come to my side. And so his side, he calls them drifters. Drifters, people who are drifting through life. They're not ambitious, not doing anything. There's kind of there. And when you're a drifter, he controls you. And he said, 98% of the population he controls by getting them to drift. The first thing does that by initially, decision comes, you act in faith or act in fear. If you act in fear, you are moving down towards being a drifter, okay. Now he starts going through what are the most effective ... Ugh, so good. So many good things. But so he said, how does he get people to act towards fear? So he's like, these are my six tools. I have six tools. Off camera: Are we good on volume? Russell: Is the volume good? Do I need to yell louder? Okay. These are the six tools, the most effective tools I use. I have to get people to act towards. So the first one is poverty. If you can get them to fear poverty, oh, if I do the thing I might could be poor. Then I'm going to be fearful instead of having faith. And, I don't care if I'm poor, I'm going to go for it. Right. So he gets people to fear through poverty. Through criticism. How many of you guys have had a decision to make, and you have fear. Oh, what if people criticize me? That's one of his tools, right? Health. Ah, I don't know if I can do that. Because I'm not healthy enough. Loss of love, old age and death. So those are the six most effective fears that the devil uses that get you to take fear over faith. And he said of those six, the two most powerful are poverty and death. He can get you to be scared of, I'm going to lose all my money. I'm going to be broke. Or, oh, if I do that, I might die. Or, I might not... Those things. Those are the two most powerful tools. So that was really fascinating for me. I look to that because I have so many times in my life when I have decisions, I am scared of criticism or I'm scared of loss of love or whatever those things might be, right. Entrepreneurship. How many times you trying to gamble everything. If you're scared of poverty, right? Then it's like, ah. In fact, I have entrepreneurs all the time. This is a conversation I have way more often than you would think where they're coming to me. And they built the business to a certain point and they're stuck and they're so scared. And the thing that I always had to come back to them, what's the worst case scenario? Because there's a spot where they're so fearful. They can't act and they can't make decisions. They can't do anything. And they just are frozen and they start shrinking right there. You see them going from people who have the presence to be able to take action. Do things. These people are stuck and frozen. And I literally, my conversation I have over and over and over again, it's like, well, what's the worst case scenario. Because if you're not okay with the worst case scenario with poverty, with death, these things. If you're not okay with those, there's no way you're going to have faith to move forward. You have to break yourself of the worst case scenario. And so I see this in my own life. I see it in so many entrepreneurs, coach, I see this as the cycle for them getting to fear. So everyone take a personal reflection. Which one are the ones that you're most afraid of, is it poverty, criticism, ill health, loss of love, old age or death. Josh: And I'm actually just going to stand up here. Because I think it'll be easier. And one of the things that... So what he's trying to do is he's trying to use one of these six things to get you to become a drifter. Ooh, we just moved the screen. That's the key thing. And I'm looking at this camera here. Okay. That's the key thing that he's trying to get you to do is the devil wants you to become a drifter because if the opposite of being drifting is, and it's the characteristics of a non drifter over here, is you have definitive purpose. You have mastery over self, you have a learning from adversity, controlling environmental influence, time, positive thoughts over time. And then thinking through plans before you act on them. So if you have those things, that's the opposite of being a drifter. If he can get you to drift, then you don't have definitive purpose, then you're not actually going after anything. Then you're not going to be able to have control over it. And then he has control over you. And that's the comparison that he keeps drawing in the book, right? If he can get you to drift, then he has control over you. But if you're not a drifter, then guess what? Then he doesn't have power over you. And then you're ultimately going to have success and freedom in life. And so, these are the things that he lays out in the book and it's like, okay, look, if you choose to be a free thinker, if you choose to be someone who is like, this is what we're all about. Has control of your mind. You're going to come into this spiritual, mental, and physical freedom category versus the drifter category. Russell: Yeah. It's amazing. And yeah, I think what... In fact, I almost called this column here, definitive purpose. Because it's so in fact if you read Think and Grow Rich, he talks to the whole chapter about definitive purpose. People who say, this is the thing I want going to go through it. I'm at a definitive purpose. No matter what happens, no matter what obstacles, trials I'm going to go get the thing that's definitive purpose, right? Again, that's the big premise of Think and Grow Rich. And here he comes back to it. Again, I almost made the title of this, but it's not- Josh: I think it fits better. Russell: It does. But it's not an opposite, where this is freedom versus drifting is the opposites. And this is what it actually says in the book. Josh: If we just summarized it as one word drifters versus freedom. Russell: Yeah, yeah. Spiritual and physical freedom. Yeah, because freedom of mind, this whole thing is he trying to control the mind if you control your mind, you win. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And so, yeah. The definitive purpose, that's the number one characteristic of a non drifter is definitive purpose. Right? So, you're coming here. I'm an act. And you're like, oh, I got fear. I got fear. What if, what if, what if they criticize me? And you don't act. Where here you're like I've got definitive purpose. This is my mission. This is the goal. I don't care what happens. I'm going to go for it and you just go for it. And that's where you're acting in faith. I don't know the path. I don't know where I'm going, but I believe in my skillset, I believe in my mission. I believe in my calling. I'm going to go and you start moving and eventually you show up and you end up over here. Josh: Yeah. Russell: So anyway, and then these other ones are all amazing. We can go deeper, but. Josh: Yeah, we can go deeper. And I think we can hold this. This is the same thing. Right? Russell: Okay. Josh: So we can hold up there? Russell: All right. Josh: And that way we can get kind of back to poor Brandon's over there. Brandon's over there like, yeah. Russell: You're ruining my mic. Josh: Yeah. So one of the things I want to dive deep down in on this is specifically on here, you have this thing called hypnotic rhythm. And if I were to do this, as an overview, it's basically, there's a human and then there's the devil. And then there's God, this is basically how he describes it in the book. Right. There's the devil and there's God. And there's the human and the human is going through life and there's the devil pulling for him and there's God pulling for him. Right. And then that person has the choice. Russell: It's like two angels, devil on your shoulder Josh: Yeah, pretty much. Right. And then you have the choice to either choose faith or choose fear, which is why, one of the things that I've been so adamantly kind of fighting right now is, don't live in fear. Why is anybody fearful of anything? And I know that's easy for me to say, because I'm not afraid of death. Right. And that's literally one of the top things that he uses to control the mind. Right. And you look around the world today and everyone's so afraid of dying or it's like, who cares? Whatever. I know where I'm going when I die. But, that's one of the things that I've been fighting so strongly. So, I have a fear and I become a drifter or I have faith and I become someone with definitive purpose and I have freedom ultimately in my life. But there's this thing underneath that is kind of the core crux of what ultimately keeps us there. And it's, I actually have notes on it, but it's this thing called hypnotic rhythm. Russell: It was interesting because he talks about hypnotic rhythm after he talks about drifters. And he's like my goal is to get them into hypnotic rhythm. He says that if you go from routines to habits you have, it's going to be habitual. And they're habitual, they become hypnotic rhythm where you're stuck in this cycle. And he says is that how you control the drifters. That's how the universe controls everything. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Positive and negative. That's why, if you look at the bottom here, it's got the little whirlpool at the bottom for hypnotic rhythm. It's the same thing. So if you have good habits and you're doing things, do you get a spot where eventually it's a pattern that you're just stuck in. It's easier to stay in the 2%. If you're in the 98%, it's easier to stay there too. Hypnotic rhythm serves all things. Josh: And that's the thing I think is so interesting about it is the way that he explains it is hypnotic rhythm is the thing that keeps the world in harmony. Right? And one of the quotes out of the book that I wrote down is nature, which in this particular case he's talking about nature in the form of hypnotic rhythm. "Nature is not interested in morals, as such she is not interested in right or wrong. She is not interested in justice or injustice. She's interested only in forcing everything to express action according to its nature." Right? So when you go into hypnotic rhythm, either positively or negatively, you get into the rhythm of nature, right. And nature is interested. And if you look at it purely from an objective standpoint, he's saying that nature is only interested in making the thing, the object, in this case you do what has been designed to do. So if you're choosing to be in hypnotic rhythm in the spiritual freedom side of things, nature is going to keep you in that. And that's why, it's almost rewiring your whole brain and your whole life for success. It's why successful people continue to have success. And it's why non-successful people do not have success. And I think understanding that and understanding that hypnotic rhythm is, I almost like to think of it as the subconscious mind. Right? Once your subconscious mind goes into the hypnotic rhythm to just do the same thing over and over and over again, it's very, very difficult to escape that. Russell: Yeah. And you see it happen in your life all the time. There's times in my life, when I was wrestling where I had so many routines, so many things where that structure in my life was just, it happens on autopilot because that was what I did. Right. And so it was perfect. I didn't have to everyday figure out, how am I going to be successful? How am I going to have definitive purpose? It become part of me. Right. Josh: Yeah. Russell: It’s something in business, or other parts. I think that it's true. We get these patterns, these ruts, these things, wherever it is. Either positively or negatively, but that's the hypnotic rhythm where that's the goal is to get in those. But in the positive side, not negative side. Because you see it's a downward spiral. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Right. Upward spiral positively or downward spiral negatively. But if you get into hypnotic rhythm, that's the thing that keeps you in that spot. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Does that make sense? Josh: Yeah.

After a dramatic week in the grain trade, this week’s podcast kicks off with Andrew and the market report for week commencing 26th April 2021. In Farmchat, Andrew is joined by Ben, Ian and Josh as they reflect on the most thrilling week in the grain market for a number of years.This week's podcast is dedicated to the memory of Cyril Adams. Thanks to all our listeners, old and new.Keep in touch - we are @dewinggrain on Twitter.The Dewing Grain Podcast is produced by www.eastcoastdesignstudio.co.ukDewing Grain - Independent grain trader for Norfolk and Suffolk01263 731550 - www.dewinggrain.co.uk See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

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Welcome to the final segment of this special interview! In this episode you get to hear Russell answer all these interesting questions: Who do you look up to? What is Tony Robbins like? How do you “deal” when things get heavy? What do you sacrifice for success? Is there closure as an entrepreneur? What do you want to be known or remembered for? Russell and Josh chat about all this and much more in the exciting conclusion to this “Atlas Shrugged” interview series. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson, and I want to welcome you, first off, to the Marketing Secrets podcast; and, second off, to the last part of our five-part Atlas Shrugged interview series. The exciting conclusion. At this time, we'd been going for three-plus hours. I was really, really tired. If I sound like I am kind of out of it, it's because I was probably a little bit out of it. We started the interview at 8:00 or 9:00 at night, so this is probably midnight or so. The night before, I had slept three hours. Or, two nights before, it was three-and-a-half... Three hours and 12 minutes. I remember. I wear an aura ring, so I track my sleep cycle. So, the night before, I slept three hours and 12 minutes. The night before this was, like, five hours. So I was tired. I was worn out. But I still had a lot of fun with it. I think Josh is a great interviewer. And I think that we had a lot of fun talking about all this stuff. So, with that said, you guys, hope you enjoyed this interview series. And, when we come back from the theme song, you have a chance to jump right into the exciting conclusion. Part five of the Atlas Shrugged interview. Josh Forti: So, one of the things you talk about in... Well, actually, expert secrets. But I think they mention it... She kind of mentions it in this book, too... is creating belief by looking up to somebody. And, if you can't see it, if nobody else has done it, then it's hard for people to kind of imagine it and ingrain it. Like, for me, I look up at... I'm like, "Who do I want to be like? What business do I want?" I'm like, "Okay, cool." Like you and your books, I want to be like that type of bit here. And then Katie Richards is another one. Being a powerful person, just in general. Okay, like, these are the people that I look up to, and I'm like, "Okay. That's what I'm going towards." So, for you, who are those people? Like, in your life. That you look up to, and you're like, "Okay, that's it." Because I feel like, the higher you get... And, I mean, you're not all the way up the ladder, right? There's still plenty more. But you're way above where the average person is going to get to. The average person has a lot of people they can look up to. You, there's a lot less options, I feel like. Who are those people that you look up to and go, "Okay, that's who I'm trying to be more like," or, "That's where I learned my lessons from." Russell Brunson: Yeah. There's different parts of my life for different people, too. You know? Josh: Yeah. Russell: I look at the business side, I know the companies I aspire to be like. Salesforce, Shopify, HubSpot. Those are companies that are just like the next tier, but from where we are. That they've crossed the chasm, where we're still trying to figure out how to... That next tier. Right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: I think watching them has been... That's when we said we'd go to DreamForce two years in a row, just because I wanted to... And I talked about it, actually, on my podcast. Because when I was out there, it was like... And you need to see it to understand it. Because I remember, when I was wrestling, my dad, my freshman year, took us to the... I had just started wrestling. He took us to the state tournament. I saw this guy on my team win state. And I was like, "That's what I want." Exactly what it was. That'd be my goal. And you see it to do it. So I think for me, those are kind of the businesses that I look up to. People, I mean, Tony... From an influence... Like, people speaking, Tony still, to me, is like... Who's bigger than him, right? Josh: Right, right. Russell: Or better. And the fact I've had a chance to build a friendship with him is really cool, because it's been interesting to see him not on stage. You know what I mean? Like, everyone has a chance to see him on stage, and he's the best in the world on there. But then you see him offstage, and see who he really is. And it's just cool to see that, I don't know, someone who's been doing this for that long, consistently, who still cares, who's still doing this. He doesn't need money, but he still is doing events almost every day of the year, because he wants that. So I think that- Josh: He can stop. Russell: Yeah. And I get it. I have so much respect for that. So I think that's a big thing. Yeah. Just, different areas of life, there's different people. But- Josh: What's it like- Russell: I've tried harder and harder to get closer and closer to him, because I like seeing... I like understanding them, not just from the outside, but understanding from inside. Because it's just a different perspective that you don't get. You know what I mean? Josh: Yeah. What is it it like? What is Tony like? Russell: Honestly, he's like a little kid. We went to his house, and... I can't talk with details, but he had a slide in his house, and he went down the slide with us, and it just... It was really cool. And we had a chance to go with him and do the meditation thing. And the way he served us, when we were with him at his house, you can tell it's how he wishes he could serve everybody. You know? And that just is hard. Like, you saw him... He's in this room serving us, and he's crying, and you see this emotion. And you're just like, "Oh my gosh," like, "he would do this for everyone if he could." But he can't. So that's why you do these big scale things. But it's the best way he can do that. But I think, if he could, he would do that for every single human being he could. It's just really... I don't know. It's cool. There's been a lot of situations, when I've been around him, where he could have not... He could have easily, like, turned it off. You know, but it's sincere. He doesn't turn it off. You know what I mean? And I try to be that way as much as I can. And hopefully you've seen, now with me and my kids? Josh: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Russell: I try to. And obviously, there's Russell, who's a more introverted, more reserved, and then there’s Russell who’s gonna be like, "Ahh!" But it's still the same... Hopefully. I want to be growing like that. Like, I'd respect him, because he's... In every situation I've seen him, he's always been sincere. Which is not... I can't say that about most people in our industry, and our world. Josh: Yeah. For sure. Russell: Which is unfortunate, because it's just like, "You are..." I remember one time I was in an event, and I heard this guy speak. He was awesome. And he just breaks down crying in the middle of this event, in the middle of the speech. And I was like, "This guy is great." And he got offstage. And he looks at me, and he's like... He said something like, "I pulled out the fake tears again." And I was like, "What?" I remember just feeling like... Ugh. I just felt so sick. How does someone do that and not... He was all proud of it. Like, "Ha," like, "I got them with my..." I just remember feeling so... Just dirty. And I just didn't like that. I was like, "I don't want to be that way. I want to be..." I don't want people saying, like, "Oh, yeah, Russell's different here than here." I don't want people saying that. Josh: Yeah. Like, one consistent person. The same person on and off stage. Russell: Yeah. Josh: There's certain people that... You just know. You meet them, and they're just genuine all the way through. Right? Russell: Mm-hmm Josh: I'm trying to think... Like Catherine Jones, right? For example. She's awesome, right? We had dinner. I had dinner with her, and... Well, God. I had dinner with her, and some friends... Russell: "What am I allowed to say in the podcast?" Josh: Yeah. No, her and some friends, when I was in Utah last. And I've had her as a client. I've watched her speak on stage, in front of... Live. I've had dinner with her. And it's like, it is the same person. Right? Russell: So cool. Josh: And there are people like that. And they're rare. I really do think- Russell: That's what people say. Like, "You never want to meet your mentors, because they're going to disappoint you." Josh: Yeah. Russell: Because of that. Because it's like, "Oh, you put them on this pedestal, and you see them in real life, and you're like... 'Huh. Well. That's disappointing.'" And then it negates all the stuff... That's my biggest thing, is that I don't want somebody who... I gave them something, to help them, and they see me in real life, and it's like, "Oh." It negates- Josh: Yeah! Russell: All you just gave them. Which it does, right? Josh: It really does. Because it takes away the trust factor. Russell: Yeah. And so it's just like... I don't know. Because I think I was nervous meeting Tony the first time. I was like, "What if..." Josh: Yeah, no kidding. Russell: You know? And you see him multiple times, over and over and over, and you're just like, "Cool." It's just neat to see that. Josh: So, what's interesting is, one of my biggest reservations about Tony before... You, and Funnel Hacking Live, was actually the thing that warmed me up to Tony. Because I didn't really know a whole lot... I'd never experienced Tony like I have at Funnel Hacking Live, or anything like that. It's so crazy. You walk into the room when he's talking, and it's like you feel the energy shift. Russell: Nobody on earth has presence like that. Josh: It is insane. Like, everyone tells you about it, but then you don't really believe it until you experience it. And I remember, actually, it was in Orlando. The first time, when he was down there or whatever. And I remember, he came... He was in the room... I was in the room when he entered. And energy, obviously, just like when anybody walks on stage, was quite ramped up. But then he just went into his normal talking. And I remember leaving the room. And, most people, you walk in and you feel it? And I remember opening that door, and shutting it, and like... My whole body shifted. Out of this high energy state, into the low energy state. And I felt like, if I was in that room, I could literally go forever. Right? It was just this nonstop source of energy. But what was interesting about Tony is, Tony doesn't really talk about God. Which is super interesting. Like, I don't know what faith Tony is. And maybe he's talked about it in something about that. And so, for me, one of the biggest struggles that I had... Because, well, growing up, and when I first the house, and when I first got into the entrepreneurship, I, like, really wrestled with God. Right? Especially, you know, going through the death of my brother was actually, ironically, the thing that brought me back to God. But I really, really wrestled with that. And so, for Tony, it was like, he's got all this energy, and he's connecting to this higher source, and he's talking about all these things, but he never... He never ties it to anything. He never gives credit to... Well, in this story I'm telling myself at the time, he's never giving credit to this higher... thing. Like, where does that all come from? And then, the more I got to know Tony... Not personally, but through his work, and through watching his videos, and seeing him at Funnel Hacking Live... I'm like, "I don't know what it is that he believes." I've never sat down... And if I ever get to interview him, I'm absolutely asking him that question. But, whatever that is, I don't think it's possible to be incongruent. Because it's... I don't know! It's not of Earth, almost. It's like you're tapping into something that isn't... In in order to operate at that level, you can't be selfish. Like, you know what I mean? Do you sense that with him at all? Like- Russell: Yeah. And he is, I think... And I'm sure you've seen it before. You talk political, and your audience is cut in half, right? Josh Forti: Yeah. Russell: I think for him, he's traveling such a world-global thing. I mean, Tony is Christian. But it's tough because half the world he speaks to are not Christians. Josh: Right. Russell: And so he... He draws that line, because he doesn't want to alienate people. Because he's like, "I'm here to serve God, and..." Josh: Right. Russell: “God didn’t send me to serve a certain group, it’s to serve everybody.” I think... That's my guess, as to why he doesn't anchor that in as a hard thing. Because his audience is so massive. But he definitely, if you ask him, he definitely knows where it's coming from. You know what I mean? Because, wherever he talks about it, he's... You know, the first time he told me, he's like... It's funny, because I'd experienced this myself, and didn't have words to put to it. Because I come on stage, I have a plan, everything's there. I start talking, and all of the sudden, like, something comes through me? And he's like, "It never comes out the way that I plan, but it always comes out perfect." And he's like, "As long as I follow that, it always just works out perfect." Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I've had so many times where I... Again, I start talking about something, I don't know where I'm going. I'm like, "Why am I talking about this?" And then all of the sudden, it's like, "Oh, wow." And there's somebody... Like, that was the thing that- Josh: Connected it. Russell: Shifted it for them. You know what I mean? And I think the more that you tap into that, the more... Again, it comes back to what I talked about before, like, where you do that... God's giving you this thing, and if you have stewardship over it, and you use it, he'll give it to you more and more. And Tony, now, who's been doing it for 40 years... Josh: It's actually super interesting you say that. So, literally, every Tuesday, I meet with Katie. Right? And we have our one-on-one call, and we talk for an hour. And one of the topics of conversation was, I was like, "Katie..." We were actually talking about getting ready for this interview. I was like, "I don't feel nervous. At all." Right? And I'm like, "And I'm getting so many texts and DMS or whatever, like, 'Oh my gosh, are you nervous? What if you mess up?'” And, so many… So many different things, right? And I'm like, "I don't feel any of that. I feel like this is just like, 'All right, cool. I'm flying out to Russell. We're gonna hang out. It's gonna be great. We're gonna go.'" And I'm like, "So, why is everybody else telling me I should be nervous? Right? Like, why is that a thing?" One of the things that she said was like, "Being who you are, being your person, knowing yourself, and, like, doing this..." But one of the things that we talked about was some of the things that you have to accept by faith. And I was really wrestling with this idea of, like, "Am I supposed to be prepared?" Am I? Russell voxed me and was like, "This is the first interview he's ever prepared for." I'm like, "I just read the book. I don't have any notes prepared for him! I'm just gonna show up and talk, right? That's what I do." And she's like, "But that's your superpower. That-" And sometimes you have to just have faith. And she's like, "You prepare 80% of the way, and leave the 20% up to God." And she's like, "And most people are not going to understand that. And, for a lot of people, that's going to freak it out." But she's like, "How many times have you prepared something 100%, you knew every word you were going to say?" And I'm like, "Very little." She's like, "Well, think back to one of the times that you did." I'm like, "Okay," and she's like, "How'd it go? I was like, "Well, terrible! Literally. It was some of my worst presentations. The most prepared I come, the biggest it'll flop." Right? And she's like, "And the least you prepare sometimes, you just walk in confidently and you do your best, turns out amazing." Yeah. Because that's what Tony's talking about, like, "It just comes over you." It's like, if you have faith that, when you show up and become... You are the best version of yourself. You show up the most prepared you can be. And you just fully embrace that, and have faith in the rest? God, the universe, whatever you want to call it, I feel like it just works the rest of it out. You know what I mean? Russell: Understood. Yeah. That's why, before I do anything, I pray before. I prayed before this call. Or, what's it called? Before this interview, before I step on stage every single time. Because a big part of it's like... Without that, what good are your words? You know what I mean? If you're doing it with the Spirit, with God... Whatever you want to call it, you know? For me, it's the Spirit. If you're with the Spirit, then it'll touch people, in a way that you can't just by your words alone. And so I always ask that, and I look for help. And I remember, I think Steven Larson, the first time he was working for me, we did our first event in the room over here. And I remember, before I would do the events myself, he started working for me. And I was in the back here. And I was saying a prayer, and he walked in. He's like, "Oh, sorry!" He's like, "That's cool." I'm like, "What?" He's like, "You pray before you go out there." I was like, "Oh, yeah. I'm not going out there by myself!" Like, you know? I'm not that good. So, I need help, and it shows up when you... pray. Josh: All right, I have two questions that I want to ask you, before we kind of go to rapid-fire, to kind of bring this to a close. I don't know. We could probably go all night, but... Russell: You just want us to keep going all night? Or you want us to go to bed? Josh: How much longer do we go for? Are you guys liking this? Comment down below. Let us know. Give some feedback. Do you like it? Do you not like it? What are your thoughts? We've been going for about three hours. And I figured, at least, it was going to go at least this long. Russell: I guarantee there's going to be some of you guys who are like, "I agree with everything," to be like, "I agree with half," or to be like, "I don't understand what they're saying. I agree with nothing." So- That's okay. There's nothing... Again, our goal was not to motivate, was not to try to convince you guys of anything. That's not my goal. Our goal was to flesh out these ideas, and hopefully you guys come on the journey, and get some cool ideas from it, and see how perceive life. I think what's fascinating is everybody has such a different perspective on life. And so many times, when we hear somebody else's perspective, we get offended. And it's like, "What if you didn't get offended, and just listened to their perspective?" And maybe you don't listen to everything, but you're like, "Oh. I'm going to take that, and that. Those are two things that were really cool for me." Just don't pay attention to the rest of it. Right? Because I'm sure, if you paid attention to everything that we both said, you probably got offended at least 12 times. But if you're just like, "I'm just going to take the gold that's good for me, and then leave everything else on the side," you got a dozen amazing things that you can use, hopefully. So. Josh: All right. And so my next question is, who are you voting for? No, I'm just kidding. Russell: Ugh. Actually, last year, I don't... Four years ago... So, I'm a big Jack Bauer fan, and I bought "Jack Bauer for president" shirts. And then, that whole day, I was Instagramming and Facebooking, "I'm writing in Jack Bauer! I'm writing in Jack Bauer!" And I would have if he was a real human. But, anyway. Josh: That's funny. Who was I just... Oh, Leah, I was talking to her on the way, as we were driving to the airport. We were talking about Joe Rogan. And, because Joe Rogan is... It's so funny, because people... Like, Trump retweeted one of his tweets. And Joe Rogan's a big liberal, right? Like, he even said he was going to vote for Bernie, before Biden became the nominee. And so I feel like a lot of Trump supporters, are like, "Yeah, Joe Rogan's a Trump fan!" Like, Joe Rogan is not a Trump fan. That's not at all what it is. And so we were like, "Well, who do you think he's going to vote for?" And I was like, "If I was a betting man, I would bet that he votes for Kanye. That he wrote him in." Because he does this three-hour interview. And Kanye answers... If you watch the interview... I mean, I know it's three hours of your time, and you'll probably never get to it. But it is a fascinating interview. And he asked... Because he keeps trying to bring Kanye back to like, "If you were president, what would you do?" Because Kanye is like, "I'm going to be president. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when," right? Like, "If I don't win this year, I'm going to for sure win in 2024." Kanye, I love your confidence. But anyway, so, Kanye answers these questions completely differently. And so, anyway. I don't want to run with that. But, my real question for you... So, you can go long on these, or we can go rapid-fire questions on them. Either way. Atlas Shrugged. Got the world on his shoulders. You feel that. How do you deal with that responsibility? Because I'm sure there's been times, I know in my own life, with my three to five little people that I'm managing, and some contractors, I'm like, "Oh my gosh! If I have to take one more thing, I'm just going to explode!" Right? Like, if we don't... So how do you, how do you deal with that pressure, and not... One of the things that I've had to learn how to do is, I don't know if anger is the right word, but deal with not taking out my frustration on somebody else. Right? Like, God bless Leah. She knows me super, super well. And like she knows the moods where it's like, "Don't ask him a question." Like, "Avoid it, and let him cool off," because if you say the wrong thing right now, I'm just going to inadvertently take it out on her. And I've had to learn how to balance that and communicate that. How do you deal with all that pressure, and still... You've got 400 people looking up to you. I know you don't talk to them everyday, but that's a lot. Russell: Yeah. That's just employees. And you have the community, and... Josh: Right. Russell: Yeah, it gets heavy. A lot. And I think it's funny, because, as you read the book, you know, Atlas Shrugged and walked away from the thing... Josh: Right. Russell: And I think for me, I don't want to walk away. You know what I mean? I don't think... That's a big thing. And I think, because the first part is, I was thinking about it, that... Because I'm a big believer that this, for me, is a calling. It's a mantle. This is what I've been called to do at this time in my life. And since, as heavy as it gets... Like, man, think about other people in a different time who had to carry a burden they didn't want to lift, right? There's tons of them. So I think about that a lot. I reached out to other people who were producers, who I know have heavy... You can ask Garrett White. Every time I'm stressing out to the max, I text Garrett, and I'm like, "Hey, man. Life's heavy. Just thinking about you." And he always sends back something about, like, "Dude, do you realize how you've changed my..." just things like that, that just... It's just like, "Okay, it's worth it. Thank you." And then, in Voxer, whenever someone voxes me something, it's like, this success story of, like, "Dude, just so you know, blah, blah, blah." And on Voxer, you can star things. So I have a whole starred menu of all the people that have told me how the fact that I'm carrying this has changed their life. So I'll listen to those, and I'll listen to four or five or six of them. And eventually, when I hear those things, it gets lighter. And so that's a big thing, for me, is just that... Dave, one of my... I'm not sure if Dave's still here or not. But Dave's one of my best friends. Josh: Is he still here? Russell: No. Josh: Dave. Russell: One of my favorite humans. Yeah. And now he's... Anyway. You know, he's carrying a lot of pressure, now, too. Dave... I don't know if you knew this... Dave is the CEO now of ClickFunnels. He's taking over a huge part of my responsibility. And he's carrying out- Josh: Oh, he's into the CEO role? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Or, is he? Or he's moving into it? Russell: He is. Officially, now, yeah. Internally. And he's... Josh: Congratulations, Dave. Russell: And, looking back now, something I should have done five years ago. He's so much better than me at... Than I am. But I see him, I see Todd, I see that people on our team who are carrying weight. And having other people that you're doing this with, besides yourself, helps a lot. So I think that's a big part of it, too, is just... I don't know. If it was just me, like that, eventually I think I'd shrug and walk away. But I know that there's a dozen other people all holding that up as well, and that helps a lot as well, because you know you're not in it alone. I always tell Dave, I'm like, "Man, if I was going to war, I would bring you. Just because I want you in the trenches with me. You know what I mean?" And knowing that I'm not in it alone helps a lot. So I think a lot of times, it's those things. When you're where, when you're doing it by yourself, that's when it gets hard. I try to not... And I think our default human thing is to isolate, and take the pressure and pain. And just for me, as an introvert, I'd rather isolate. But I try, specifically when it gets heavy, just to, like, "Okay, I can't isolate, or I'm going to just get crushed." Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I reach out, and that helps me a lot to be able to sustain stuff. Josh: Next rapid-fire question, if you will. Success takes sacrifice. So, in managing ClickFunnels, obviously you love it. But what things are you not able to do, or do you wish you were able to do more of, that you are not able to because of the role that you play in ClickFunnels? Russell: Yeah. Stuff like this. I feel bad. There's so many people who ask for podcast interviews and things like that. People that I would love to do it with, but just there's not enough time. I miss... When we were first growing ClickFunnels, and starting it, I just remember coming in in the mornings, and being like, "What should we do today?" And thinking about it, and brainstorming. I miss that part. Now you come in, and it's like, "All right, there's 8,000 things you got to do." And it's like, "Okay," and I miss those parts of it. I don't know, I miss... Not being able to turn it off, but I think... I don't know, it would be nice... I think it's Alex Charfen, I'm thinking about. Like, "You don't want to run off into the white wood." There's times where... And this is dorky. This is the cheesiest thing. Remember watching the last... Endgame? Avengers Endgame. Josh: Oh, yeah. Russell: And, at the end, when Iron Man dies, and... What's her name? Pepper Potts. When she's like, "You can rest now." I remember hearing that, and I was just like... I actually started crying. I was just like, "I feel like I want to rest sometime. I don't know how, or when, or-" I desire that. I don't know how, because there's so much stuff and so many things. And I think, I don't know, I long for that moment. Where it's just like, whatever the... Like at the end of the Bootstrap book. I don't know where or when that happens, but- Josh: Right, yeah. Russell: If there's ever a time where it's just like, "Oh. We did it." Like, it's weird, because in wrestling, there was a thing where you get your hand raised, and then you get to rest. Business, I haven't found that. Like, it's just this constant thing. Where you have victories and stuff, but you never... Again, wrestling is like, you'd cut weight a week, you'd train, you'd practice, and you'd go out there, head-to-head. You wrestle. You get a hand-raise, you go out to eat, and you relax. You sleep that weekend. Monday, you get back to work. I don't feel like, in business, there's ever been that. Like, "Ah." Josh: Do you think it exists? Russell: I don't know. I assume when people sell a business there's some of that, but most people I know that have sold a business... It's harder. Because it's like someone else is taking your thing that your identity is tied to. So that scares me too. And so I don't know. That's something, I don't know if it's like... Is it when I die that I'm like, "Ah." Like Iron Man? I don't know... I don't know. Some day. I desire that. I don't know how to get it, but that's something I'm looking at. How do you get that? How do you get that release you get, where you're just like, "Ah, I did a good job." I think Funnel Hacking Live is probably the closest to that? Josh: Yeah. That's what I was thinking. Russell: Right after it ends? But then also, sometimes... Like two years ago, and it's semi-controversial, and I got blown up for, like, three or four days. And I remember I was like, "This sucks!" Like, "I just killed myself, and now I'm defending myself for three days because of some other speaker who said something that I wish they wouldn't have, but they did, and..." And, yeah. Some of the things like that are hard, but, huh. Anyway. Josh: Are we having Funnel Hacking Live this year? Or, next year, I guess? Russell: Some version of it, yeah. We're in a contract battle with Nashville, where we've done it the last two years. I was just to go there again this year. It typically takes us nine months, for Funnel Hacking Live. Obviously, because of everything, we haven't. We're three months out from when it was supposed to be, and there's no way I can fill it in time. Plus, I don't think we were going to come do there. And so we're trying to push that contract for another year, and then doing a hybrid, something in between. So far, we haven't even got the contract, which is... Anyway. So, something will happen. And I'm dying to not announce it yet, because I don't have finality yet. But some version of Funnel Hacking Live- Josh: What? You mean you can't break something right here, live, at- Russell: I've tried my best! To- Josh: 1:00 in the morning, Eastern time? Russell: We'd love to do some kind of hybrid... Something. Essentially, because I spoke at Tony's thing, where he had the big internet… Josh: Yeah. How was that? Russell: It was really cool. And hard. Because, at first, you come out, and you're in this room, and there's faces everywhere, like, "Ah! That's amazing!" But you're speaking at an event. You shift, and you're looking at different people, which is fun. Here, if you look at people, it looks like you're talking like this. So you have to look at the camera. So, you have a million faces everywhere, and you have to look right here? And you can't- Josh: Oh my God! Russell: And everyone's doing weird things, and so it's kind of hard. Because you're like, I have to look here, or else it looks like I'm not connected to you. But there's so much happening that I want to... It was- Josh: Oh. That's crazy. Russell: It was almost... I don't know if "Dizzy" is the right word, but something that we were just like... It was different. It was hard to get used to. But, anyway, he's building a new place that's three times as big. We're just going to have a hybrid, where half is at... half's the stadium. He said something interesting. He's like, "This year is the year of virtual. Next year is the year of hybrid." So I'm trying to figure out our version of that. And I don't know what that is yet. Josh: Hybrid being part live, part... Russell: Yeah. Yeah. Because I never wanted to make Funnel Hacking Live virtual, ever. Because… it’s this thing. But I also want to make it... Yeah, anyway. So, I'm hoping. I'm hoping the next couple weeks have some finality on that contract, so we can start the next... Whatever the process looks like. So it'll be some version of 2021, for sure. Josh: Cool. Russell: Where people who want to travel will be able to travel. Josh: All right. Awesome. Two more questions. Russell: Okay. Josh: One: what is one thing that people don't know about you? What's a Russell Brunson thing that is a pretty defined part of who you are that people don't really know? Russell: I'm public about everything... Josh: Are you, though? Russell: I don't know. That's a good question. Have you learned anything by me since you've been here in our... Josh: Yeah, a couple of things. Russell: Really? Josh: Yeah. A couple of things. Yeah. More from your wife, though. Yeah. She's told... Russell: She's telling you all the good stuff. Josh: Also, your kids are fascinating. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Yeah. I talked to them for probably 10, 15 minutes. Russell: My kids are the coolest. I think my biggest fear in life is that I am not going to be the dad that they need. You know what I mean? I don't know. He's going to be like... I don't know. Being a parent's way harder than I thought I was going to be. I thought I was going to be amazing at it. I'm like, "I can influence thousands of people at once," but the person you care about and love the most? And same to my wife. I think those are my biggest fears. I don't want to mess up the family. And it's weird because, again, it's like all my super powers are like my kryptonite in a family. You know what I mean? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And so I think I struggle with that a lot of times, where it's just like, "Nah, I'm such a good communicator." I think. Communicating messages. And I struggle communicating with people I love the most. So I think that's it, I think. I am scared to death of cats and dogs. I will not touch them. Josh: Really? Russell: Yeah. I won't touch any animal. They're disgusting to me. And I'm allergic to cats, but the way it came about is, when I was in high school, the girl I was dating, she had a cat, and they went out of town. She's like, "You can watch my cat." And I was like, "Okay." So I came in, and the cat's rubbing against me, so I was petting it, because I'm like... I'd never had an animal before, right? And I'm petting it. And my eyes swole shut. For three days. Three days later, they finally opened again, and the white part was all blood-red. And I don't trust animals since then. You can watch me. My in-laws have cats. I walk in the house, and I stand there. I won't sit on the couches, because I'm like... Because I break out an allergies. If like a dog runs up to me, everyone... You'll see I've kind of turned my... Like, "Don't touch me." Anyway, I don't like animals. Unless you can eat them. So there's something people probably don't know about me. Josh: There you go! Who would've guessed, who would've guessed. All right. Last question. Final question. And I asked this to you... I think I have asked this to you before, but now we're here. We're in person. And we're going to talk. I want you to fast-forward to the end of your life, when you are on your deathbed, and I want you to... All your money, and success, and fame, and influence it's all gone. But you've influenced a lot of people. And you get to leave them with a final message that kind of defines... not what you took away from life, but like the message that you feel like you should put on to some... Pass on, for generations to come. What would you want to be defined by? What would you want that message to be, for people to remember you by? Russell: Cool... And I'm hoping... Honestly, my biggest hope. I'm hoping that when we die, we go to our maker. I'm hoping that we get a glimpse of what our life actually did. You know, like the ripple effect? Josh: Fascinating. Russell: You know It's A Wonderful Life? Josh: Yeah. Russell: When he sees what it was like, before and after? I'm hoping all of us get that experience. Because you have no idea what you're actually doing with it. But I'm sure what we're all doing is... Anyway, I'm praying that we get that moment, because that would be... Anyway. I think my message that I- Josh: That would be so cool. Russell: Yeah. Can you imagine that? Josh: Yeah. That'd be wild. Russell: Yeah. Josh: We need to do a podcast just about our faith. That'd be cool. That'll be our next one. Russell: Okay. That'd be fun. Josh: Next one, I'll fly out here for, and we'll just do it, just about- Russell: That'd be fun. Josh: Just about God, and faith. All right. Russell: That'd be fun. But I think for my message, I would leave it as, I think that... Again, just to tie back to what we talked about initially, I think a lot of us start these businesses, or start whatever we're trying to do, whatever we're called to do, you start initially out of greed, right? It's natural, man. We have these desires that make us want to do stuff, right? And I think for me, when I first got started in this business, I just thought it was to make money, and all these kind of things. And I saw, even when it started having an impact, I mean, "This is cool, this is cool." But it wasn't until... I had a coach a few years ago. She's amazing. And I remember she asked me about what I think God thinks about my business. I'm like, "Why would He care about this?" He cares about how I'm living my life, and I'm keeping to the Commandments and stuff, but why would He care about this?" She's like, "Don't you see it?" And I'm like, "See what?" She's like, "You don't see what He's... Who you've become? His hand in your life?" And it never had crossed my mind. And she started helping me understand, like, "This thing that you're doing is not just to make money. This is a calling. This is literal... This is a calling. You were called of God to do this thing, and the ripple effect, and people's lives you're changing... Even though you're helping people to start businesses, build funnels, it seems like it doesn't matter, but it does. Because it frees people, and then they can change people's lives. And the ripple effect is huge." And she helped me understand that day, in such a profound way, that just these things that we're doing, it's a literal calling from God. I think if I was on my deathbed, I would want people to know, like, when you feel that tug, or that nudge, that thing that starts you on this journey, that's not just like, "Oh, it'll be fun. Oh, I'll make some money," or whatever. It's literally God giving you something. This is your stewardship. Do something with it. See what it is. I think, if you realize that... Since I've realized that, it's been different. Now that I know that, it's like, "Okay, I'm going to run as hard as I can. Because this is not just an idea I had. This is a gift." And it's like these tests, like, "What am I going to do with this?" And then when you look at it from that lens, it's like, man, you can do and create... You have more faith in yourself, because it's not yourself, right? I get scared every time I get on stage. I got nervous before this. Like I get... "You're probably confident, because you're on the stage in front of 35,000 people." No! I freak out in front of, like, 20 people! I get so nervous. But I'm like, "I know that I can do it, because this is a calling that was given. And He's not going to give me something that I can't do." And so I think that, if I could help people understand that... I don't know the right way to articulate it, but I think if everybody understood that, how real that actually is, it'd make you run harder, make you work harder, and make you braver, and make you have more courage, more... All the things you need to get that message out. Because you were called. It is a literal calling. And you're probably not worthy of it yet? Like, when you get it, you're not worthy. Like they say, "He qualifies, so he calls," right? You're not qualified right now, but the act of you moving forward is what qualifies you, and what prepares you for the calling. And I think that, if people understood that, man, people would focus so much less on themselves and on their situation and just, like, "All right. Here's the baton. Run." Right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: You're now gonna start running. And you would do it with perfect faith, because you know it's from somebody beside yourself. And I think if people understood that and believed, it would change everything. Josh: Russell. Thank you so much, man. Russell: Yeah, man. Josh: This was so much fun. Russell: It is fun. Josh: I'm so glad we were able to make this happen. Russell: How long do we have to do... Where are we at? Josh: We're at three hours and 18 minutes. Russell: Dang. And we're still here? Josh: Three hours 20 minutes. Yeah. Russell: Dang, a lot of people still here. Josh: Yeah. I've got... Yeah. Quite a bit. Russell: Thanks for having me, man. Thanks for coming all the way out here for this. It was cool. Josh: Yeah. Of course. Yeah. And- Russell: Oh, and we have the comments now. Josh: What do you guys think of the interview? Yes? Good, bad? Thumbs up? Rate it! On a scale from 1 to 10. On a scale from 1 to 10, give us a rating. 1 to 10. Russell: "I used to think Russell was cool, but now I think he's crazy," or, "I used to think Russell was crazy, now I think he's cool." I'm good with all those things. I'm just curious. Josh: Russell, God bless you. God bless your wisdom and mission. Look at this. Thank you so much. This is amazing. Russell: Smileys are here. What's up, Smileys? Josh: Let's go, let's go. What's up, James Smiley? Great stuff. Awesome. I love it, I love it. I could do... A 1000. We got a 1000 out of 10. Russell: Dang! Josh: That's pretty darn good. Russell: It is really good. Josh: 12? 12 out of 10. Russell: Oh, so fun. Josh: Brent? what's up, man? All right, we're going to have to do this again. Sometime when we can sit down and talk about God. That one, we're really gonna have to get prepped for it. Oh, do you know Nick Robbins? Russell: Not off the top of my head. Josh: All right. He's kind of in the ClickFunnels world? He ran an agency, sold it, but still remained a partner, and then got bored, and then came back into it? Anyway. So he and I had, I think, a three-and-a-half-hour conversation about God. So, it's interesting, because he and I actually have a lot of similar beliefs, but he doesn't believe in God. So he's like, "Yeah, I think there's something out there, and it's something intelligent," or whatever. And so we had a... He uses language. And I don't, typically. And so we had all this big, long, huge debate. So, and we've gone there and said that. Russell: That's fun. Josh: Yeah. So. Russell: I think one of the most fascinating conversations I ever had was with Howard Berg, the world's fastest reader? That guy's, like, 30,000... Josh: Yeah. Oh, that's right! He came here, didn't he? Russell: Yeah. A couple of times, since we've hung out. He's read 30,000 books. I was like, "I can ask this guy any question I want." And so I asked him. I was like, "What's your opinion on God?" And I remember he told me, he said... Because, again, religion usually causes fights. Because, like, "Well, I believe-" you know, and it's so cool, because he's like, "Well, most people read one book, and then they base their belief in God on this one book." He's like, "I've read..." I can't remember what it was... "Like, 1,200 books on God, from every perspective." And he's like, "Based on that, this is what I believe." It was just so cool to see that, I think. And I feel like all of us, instead of us being like, "This is my way, this is my way." It's like, just hear... Even if you completely... I completely disagree with so many people's opinion, but I still hear it. Because, again, why do they believe that? There's something. There's a reason why they believe that. I want to understand that. And, anyway. And it's just so interesting. Josh: That's my big thing. My big thing is like... And that's one of the hardest things, for mem is figuring out... My beliefs are always changing. That's probably reason I started the podcast. I just wanted to talk to people. Right? Like, if I'm wrong... I'm so excited whenever someone comes in and is like, "You're wrong, and here's why!" And I'm like- Russell: "Sweet!" Josh: "Oh my gosh! Thank you so much! I know what I'm onto next! Yes!" Right? Where everybody else is like, "I don't want to be wrong. What are they-" I'm like, "If somebody comes in and proves my idea wrong..." Like, my ideas are pretty thought-through. And I'm a really thought-through person. I know why I believe what I believe, not just what I believe. Right? So if somebody can come along and challenge that? That's one of the things that is so attractive to me about Leah. Leah was smart. She challenged even beliefs that she maybe even agreed with. She'd play the devil's advocate, and change, and challenge it. And I'm like, "that's what I like. I want to grow and expand like that." So, anyway. Russell: Yeah. That's awesome. Josh: We'll have to come back and do that, so. All right. Russell. Thank you so much, man. Super, super appreciate it. Guys, as always. Hustle, hustle. God bless. Don't be afraid to think different. And who knows? You might just end up in a chair next to Russell Brunson. So, that'd be awesome. Guys, as always, hustle, hustle. God bless. Don't be afraid to think different. Those of us that think different are going to change the world. By using funnels! And other stuff. Russell: Yeah! Josh: I love you all. And I will see you on the next live stream episode. Take it easy, man. Russell: Bye everybody. Josh: Peace!

Welcome back to the 4th part of this interview series. We are getting near the end and the topics keep getting more interesting. In this episode you hear them talk about the influence their parents had on their lives in business. If they feel misunderstood as entrepreneurs and how their ability to communicate might be able to change that. Russell explains how he realizes that Clickfunnels is a team effort and that’s what help him stay so grounded. Then they discuss what each liked most about the Atlas Shrugged book and what character they each associate with most. So tune into part 4 of this exciting interview! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up everybody, this is Russell. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. All right. I hope you guys have enjoyed the first three. We are moving into the fourth episode of our interview. My interview with Josh Forti talking about Atlas Shrugged. Again, during this series, we've been talking about religion and politics and all the things you're not supposed to talk about, but we've done it all through the lens of Atlas Shrugged, which I hope you've enjoyed and had a lot of fun with it. Hopefully it's made you want to go and actually read the Atlas Shrugged book, which I think would be really, really cool. With that said, I’m going to queue up the theme song. When we come back, you have a chance to start listening to part four of my interview with Josh Forti. Josh Forti: So, what did your parents do right for you? One of the things that I try to say, I try to say it a lot but I don't even say it enough. My parents have played a absolutely tremendous... I owe so much of who I am today to my parents indirectly in a lot of ways. My parents didn't teach me about money or things like that. That wasn't their gift, but the principles of hard work and family values, biting your tongue, even though it doesn't seem like I bite my tongue. Oh my gosh. Every day, right? Russell Brunson: It could be worse guys. Josh: Right. It could be way worse. Some people would love that, but you know, deescalating situations and having those... I owe so much of who I am to those. Yeah, they messed up in a lot of ways like you said, but what were some of the things that your parents did right? What are the things that you remember from your parents? Russell: Yeah. I love my parents. I was very blessed with my parents, for sure. I don't think my dad was super engaged when we were younger just because he was in the phase where, like trying to figure things out and make money. It was different back then. Josh: Is he an entrepreneur? Russell: Yeah. He also had a job, but he did side business so he was always trying to figure things out. I saw him doing these things. I saw the job he didn't love and then I saw him doing stuff he did love and I watched him work really hard. Then when I started wrestling, I saw my dad... That became the thing that me and him connected with which meant the world to me and it was so important to him. What's cool was that my dad showed up to every wrestling practice. He came to every single match. His day job was State Farm insurance, he built up his book of business where by the time I was wrestling, he was able to take off as much as he wanted. It ran itself and he was making money and had residual income. I remember my dad was the only one, as soon as wrestling practice got done, my dad would walk in and we would do practice afterwards. Never missed a match. He was always there. I remember just thinking, I want to make sure I have a business or something like my dad was for me. That was so important to me. Like I said, he wasn't super around when we were younger and I think he struggled because of the younger kids, which I understand. That phase in my life, he was there and my best friend and it was just, it was awesome. I love that and I've been trying to have my kids now. Especially at times where maybe I wasn't as good of a dad, I was too busy. I'm trying to connect more. That was my dad for sure. Then my mom, for me she was just... I wouldn't say I'm a people pleaser but I'm very much an achiever. I think when I started wrestling and I saw my dad got closer to me and then I got a win and I saw him get excited, I wanted to win because I wanted to impress my dad. To this day, I think I still have that. Part of the reason I'm in this business and I'm doing stuff is I love when my dad sees it. There's something, I love impressing him. To this day I love that win. With my mom, she loved me even when I didn't win. that was something that was so foreign to me. I remember I'd be cutting away for wrestling, I hadn't eaten for three days. I'd be so tired, so miserable. She'd come down and sneak in my room, bringing me food. I'm like, "Mom, I can't eat. I'm not going to make weight." She's like, "Why don't you just quit then? You don't need to do this." She was the opposite of my dad. She loved me no matter what and didn't care that I was trying to win or succeed. Couldn't care less. She loved me just because I was me. That was weird but so cool as well. It's both those principles, it's something I've tried to weave in. I've got two different sides I'm trying to weave that into my kids. Again, so far from perfect, but I think those are the two things that meant the world to me, that I'm super grateful for them those things for me because I still remember those things now. Josh: So there is... Which by the way, that's awesome. There's a lot of people in this world that are growing up without a dad, without a mom. It's interesting because I think a lot of my social media posts, I kind of come across sometimes like the heartless a-hole, you know what I mean? A little bit, they're like, "Josh!" You know what I mean? You talk about, take personal responsibility for your life, everybody can do anything. If you're broke it's your fault, that's one of my favorite sayings. If you're broke in America it's your fault, right? They're like, "Josh, you don't understand. You grew up and your parents are still married. Not only do you have parents, they're still together and they still actually love each other." It's not even necessarily they're still together. You're like a percentage of the percentage of the percentage in a lot of ways. I don't even know what question I'm asking you, but what would you do? Where could somebody find that? What can we do as a society or just as entrepreneurs, as producers to help those people? I feel like that's a really big need. Russell: For sure. Josh: One of my big struggles with this is I always want to point it back to the church. I had a really awakening, come-to-Jesus moment back when I posted, this is probably a month ago or so. I posted it on Instagram actually. I think you liked it, actually, so I know you saw it. I said, "Defund the media, defund fear, defund career politicians. Fund orphanages, churches and schools." I posted it on Facebook and I posted it on Instagram, and I was shocked at how many people were like, "Dude. Fund the churches? They're a bunch of pedophile people there too." So many people had such this negative view of the church. I grew up in the church, that's what I knew. How I knew how family works is because I saw our own family and then I saw the church family and I saw the community and how the church was involved in the community. The church that I went to, after I moved out Grable, Indiana, I worked three doors down from it and that's where people went to vote was in their gym. And the fair, that's where people parked. The church was such an integral part... that word, a part of the community. So when I saw all these people that had this negative view of the church, that broke my heart because that was my solution. There are so many things. Like, if you don't have a dad, you can go to the church. If you don't have this, you can go to the church. Said, "What?" If that's your answer, that's cool, but how can we as producers of society and the people that are going out there and making the money, how can we help those that don't have what you and I had? Russell: It's interesting. What Mormons believe is the family is the central everything. That's God's plan. Husband and wife starts a family. That's an eternal principle, right? If you look at the adversary, Satan, whatever you want to call him, his job, if he can destroy the family, everything falls apart. That's the war we're in right now. We think we're in a lot of different wars. The war we are in is, Satan is attacking families. That's it. Josh: Okay. I want you to finish this, I have to say this though. Guys, and this is not Russell saying this, this is me. This is why I hate the Black Lives Matter organization. Not movement, the organization so much. Because, their whole principle is bragging about the traditional family values. Anyway, I'm not speaking for Russell. Russell: Yeah, if you Google "The Family: A Proclamation to the World," you'll see my beliefs on family. We have it printed out eight foot on my wall in my house. That's my belief. Family is central, everything. So, Satan, the way he destroys societies and nations and this world is, destroy the family. So when you see families are broken, they're single mothers and single fathers, it's heartbreaking. I think it's the saddest thing in the world. I don't know the right way to solve it. I do know that it's vitally important. I remember first time I met Tony Robbins and started learning from him, one of the principles he talked about in relationships is masculine, feminine energy. The masculine and feminine is key to a relationship. I could go on for four hours just on masculine and feminine. Oh, that's the most fascinating topic in the world. If you ever see how Tony fixes relationships, you look at the traditional view of traditional counseling, there's a problem. They're like, "What's the symptom of the problem?" They try to solve the symptom of the problem and counseling takes years because it's a symptom of the problem. All the issues, they're all symptoms of problems. The real problem is when there's a masculine and a feminine, and it doesn't matter. Again, this is true with gay, straight, doesn't matter. Feminine, masculine energy. You take a masculine and a feminine and that polar opposite, that magnetism, magnetize together, right? That's what creates attraction, passion, everything. What happens is you have a masculine and feminine, they're attracted together. That's how you start. That's how any relationship starts. Right? Then you look at people getting married. It was interesting because what Tony talked about, he said you look at typically in a relationship, there's what they call the seven-year itch, and why is that? He talks about the way the feminine causes change is... Some day I want to write a book on this. I don't know perfectly enough to- Josh: Russell needs to become a writer. My word… Russell: Yeah, I've got a lot of books to write. But, this is how it works in traditional marriage. Masculine and feminine. What happens is one of the ways that feminine causes change is they criticize, right? I see this with my wife, with friends, with girls. If they want their friend to change their hair they don't say, "Hey, you should get a haircut." They'll criticize to try to cause change. Right? What happens is that a feminine- Josh: Yo, wow. That's so true. Interesting stuff. Russell: Yeah. That's just one example of- Josh: Dave! Russell: Feminine… Josh: Right, right. Russell: So, feminine and masculine come together. This is just an example. They'll start criticizing the man, but a masculine man doesn't care, it bounces off him. Like, "Okay. Okay." Right? What happens after seven years of that happening? Eventually instead of it balancing off of you, which is the masculine response, you start taking it personally. Like, "Oh." As soon as you take it personally, guess what happens? You are shifting physically from your masculine into a feminine. You start shifting and what happens is you shift from masculine to feminine and boom, the attraction breaks, and it starts falling apart. And then all the other problems start happening. The problem isn't solving the fact that you leave the toilet seat up or that you don't communicate well. The problem is that the masculine-feminine attraction is broken. If you fix the masculine and feminine, you can make men become men and women become women. Attraction comes back, all the other symptoms disappear. It's fascinating. That's from a marriage, family, relationship standpoint. Josh: Okay. I want to- Russell: I'm telling this because I want to talk about this from the family with kids in a minute, but yes. Josh: Okay. But I want you to now give me another example that Tony Robbins has said, because what you made it sound like there is that the way the woman does something is the thing that's causing the bond. I know that's not what you meant. Russell: Oh, it could be, yeah. That's- Josh: I just wanted to do that clarification. Russell: It's the same thing with the men where the men are responding over and over, where women now become defensive and they become more masculine and it's the other way. Yeah. Sorry. That's not the only example. I was just- Josh: Right. Russell: The one- Josh: I just wanted to make sure we clarify that because I know thing's have been taken out of context before. Russell: Somebody is going to be angry at me. I apologize. I'm stupid. I get it. But conceptually, does that make sense? It's the break of the masculine and feminine that causes the split, which causes the disharmony. And if you bring the masculine and feminine together, I think that's what causes attraction and causes passion and causes all these things. I look at my life when we were struggling in our marriage, it's because I'm showing up feminine. When I show masculine, everything's great. Where my wife comes in masculine and I'm masculine, we butt heads, it's fascinating. Anyway, I don't want to get deep into this because there's so much stuff. There's another show on this, because you look at this thing. You've got a family and the mother and father split and then there's kids who go with either the mother or the father, and now what they have is they've got either a very masculine person they're learning from or feminine, but they don't see both. And so it shifts them and it shifts their relationship. So many problems. I think the way we help the most, or can help the most is... Hormozi does this. Alex Hormozi does this. He donates his money to... Do you remember the name of the charity? He got our first Two Heart award. It's afterschool kids. These kids, like men who... There's these kids trying to play basketball or lift weights or whatever, who don't have masculine energy in their life. They come and they donate their time and they help the kids to brig masculinity. All of us, we need male and female perspectives. Josh: Right. Russell: It's designed to have those things together. When you lose one of them, it's a tragedy. I think the way we can start helping is, how do we bring programs where they can see masculine energy and see the way to make it a positive and not a negative thing? A lot of times, all they know is masculine energy left and oftentimes there's a lot of anger between the people. They hear talking trash about the spouse and talking trash about these traits which are traits that are essential for them to develop. I don't know. I don't know if that's the right answer or not, but I feel like that's how we could help those things. Help them understand, like the kids who don't have a father or a mother. They need that energy in their life to understand it, to be able to... I don't know. Josh: Okay. This is seemingly unrelated to this, but I think that I can tie it back in because it's a question that I think fits in here. I'm going to start with a super-basic question, which I think the answer is obvious, but we'll go down this road. Do you feel misunderstood as an entrepreneur? Russell: I did early on, less so now. Josh: Why is that? Russell: When I was got started... Entrepreneurship has become more of a cool thing in the last decades. Since Shark Tank and stuff. Back when I first started it wasn't. Everyone was confused. Like, "Why would you do that?" It is cooler. Also, I think the more you talk, the more you either alienate people or you attract people, and I think a lot of the people who I have alienated have been alienated and I think they are attracted by attractive. So my bubble of people around me are people who understand this lingo, who relate to it. So it's less hard now than it was initially. Josh: I believe that one of my superpower... Your superpower, your art, your format is marketing and funnels, funnels specifically. That's what you do. I feel you could just sit there for hours and hours and days and forever for the rest of, all of time. Russell: Yes. I love it. Josh: My superpower thing that I like to do is this. Communication. I love constructing words in a way that people can understand. I'm sure not, but the Kanye West interview that Joe Rogan just did three days ago. Russell: I've heard about him… Josh: This has been a long awaited episode. No one thought it was ever going to happen because it was teased and it wasn't, didn't happen. Finally happens. So I see this, I had no idea what's coming. It drops and I'm a huge fan of Joe Rogan and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing!" I sit down and I look online and all these people are like, "Terrible interview. Not worth your time. Couldn't get past the first 20 minutes." Anything like that. I'm like, what? So I go and the first 20 minutes are kind of like, eh whatever. I get done with this three-hour interview. It was like, top three interviews of all time. What's interesting is... Do you know Kanye? Like, how Kanye communicates at all?   Russell: No.   Josh: Okay, there's so many references that I want to use that you won't get. Kanye sees the world fundamentally differently and how Joe describes it in there and the way that I described it is... You wouldn't know this, like I said, because it's psychedelic, it's like a drug or whatever. But imagine being on a psychedelic drug in a small format at all times. That's how his mind works. He sees everything, it's like expanded. So even Kanye said, "The reason I have such a hard time communicating sometimes is because I see things in three-dimensional and then I have to put them into a two-dimensional conversation." I'm not trying to compare myself the way I think to the way that Kanye thinks, ubt this concept of people think he's beating around the bush when really he's just trying to explain something. One of the things I love doing is taking a concept that and figuring out how to describe it in a way that the average person can understand. I live in a different world, just like you live in a different world than the average person does. I live in a different world and that is by choice. I do not see the world the way that most people do. I intentionally do not want to see the world the way that other people do. Everything that I do, I will intentionally engineer where my life is different than the average person because I want to see the world differently, but I want to be able to communicate that in a way that they can understand. My question is, do you think that there's a lot of great ideas stuck inside of producer's heads that if more people understood them and thought like that, we could change the world for the better? But because they're stuck in their head and that person doesn't know how to communicate it well, or is not focused on that, that that effect never happens. Russell: Gotcha. Yes. That's why I think for me the study, this art of funnels and copywriting and story does, is so fascinating. That's what it is, right? I always pitch, like when we have an idea, in my head it's like this big granite block, right? It's like, this is the idea and give it to somebody, like, "This is the idea." You're like, "I don't get it." Right? Josh: Right. Russell: Then you start thinking about, who is it? Start chiseling away at the stone. You start chiseling, chiseling, and eventually you have this amazing statue. This thing that people can see and they can understand and they gravitate towards. I feel it's the same thing with communication or with any kind of idea you're trying to sell. The funnel is one thing. Right now, like, "Hey, you should buy my coaching programs." Why? Like, "Ah, it's too big." I need to take them to a path, simplify that. So there's a step-by-step process which is like chiseling away. Then inside each step of the process, there's the words and the stories, the things you communicate to simplify it to get more and more fine tuned. That's why for me, when we create a funnel and we launch it, it's like taking this big granite block and chiseling it down to now something that somebody can come in on the side of it go through a process. By the time they're done at the end, they're going to get some money, they're going to get a product and something's going to change for them. I think that's what marketing is. it's that process of trying to simplify the message. I think a hundred percent, that's why most ideas don't get out. I don't know, how many times have you had... This kind of comes back to talking about, who knows, an hour or two ago too, but four or five people get the same idea, but then one person executes on it. It's like the person who understands the communication the best is the one typically who gets it out, right? How much of your life or my life has been focused on the communication? I don't necessarily like that part as much. It's not my favorite part, but it's such an essential tool. I remember when I got in this game and I was trying to sell my very first product, Zip Brander. I put it up, I had a picture of it, Buy Now button and tried to send traffic, and nobody bought it. Someone's like, "Well, you need a headline," so I'm like, okay. So I put a headline. "Tell us what this does." So I found some sites that kind of modeled what they did and the people started buying it. It was learning that process of, how do you communicate? I remember thinking, I never want to learn how to write copy. That's what we all thought back then. "I don't want to write copy, I don't want to do that. That sounds horrible." I wanted to hire someone, but the people I tried to hire was expensive, it was 10 to $20,000 for a sales letter. I couldn't afford it, so I'm like, I have to learn this art and how to communicate. I'm so grateful because that's how everything we built has been, off the communication of an idea, and doing it in a way that gets people to move. Josh: How do you decide what you're going to communicate? You have a lot of ideas in your head and you have a lot of different thoughts on everything and you choose to share funnels and marketing primarily. Then you have some religion in there, which I would say probably is number two, maybe ish, of what you communicate. But that's it. How do you decide... Russell: The battles I want to choose? Josh: Yeah. Russell: What battles? That's a good question. I think part of what's interesting, like why did I want to do this interview? I read the book, it was fascinating. I don't know the answers and I thought this would be a fun way to talk it out loud. This is fascinating. Funnels are fascinating to me because I can apply it to so many things. You know when I talk a lot about wrestling, but not the community you bump into but for wrestling, I talk about that. I think it's just the ideas that fascinate me that I feel have the most fluidity and can do the most. Again, as an introverted person, I'll typically go out and have conversations with people as much as I can, but when I find something that does cause and effect, that's why I practice telling my story so many times and I'll do a podcast. I know now when I'm on stage in front of 9,000 people, the stories can get people to move because I practice it. So I think it's putting a lot of things out in the water and then seeing what things people relate to, and then I go deeper on the ones that are like, "Okay, this one had an impact." There's a lot of stuff. I remember in first version Dotcom Secrets, there were seven or eight chapters more that never got published. I was going to publish… Josh: Do you have copies of this? Russell: Yeah. It was like, all my best stuff at the time that I knew that I was going to publish it and it was all in the book. I remember I heard an interview with Tim Ferriss and Ryan Holiday... Ryan Holiday at the time and they were both talking... Anyway, they were talking about their books. Both of them said that when they write a typical book... You know, Tim Ferris's books are like this fat… My first draft was like, twice as big. It's like, to make your book go from good to great, it's not adding more. It's cutting. Like, I cut two thirds of my book to give you this one. I think it was Ryan said the same thing. The first draft is usually twice as big as the final one. Then the next section, it's cut, cut, cut, cut. I remember going back to Dotcom Secrets that night and I was like, "Okay, based on that, what would I cut and how would that do?" I cut seven chapters out and after I was done, I was so scared because I love these things, but those things aren't that important to get people what they need to actually be successful. Some of those things ended up being in Dotcom Secrets and Expert Secrets, and different places, but yeah. I wonder how that first version- Josh: I was going to say, I wonder if she just published the first day or if she had a 2,700 page book and cut something out of it. That's crazy. Okay. Back to the question in the car, and I want to tie this back to the book. How has growing a multi-hundred million dollar, making hundreds of millions of dollars having a roughly billion-dollar company, being the CEO of 400 employees, how has that changed your perspective of the world? Russell: So many things I could respond. I think there was a season of my life where I thought that if I was going to create something, if I was going to do something, the way I was going to do it, by me. Does that makes sense? Josh: Yeah. Russell: In fact, if you look at my history, the first decade of business, the businesses were about me. They were me. I was the sole owner, the sole person. On this journey, when we started, it was so different. It was like, what's the team look like? Todd was my first time I had a partner. That was so scary for me. Then it's been the greatest thing I possibly could have done. Right? Then we brought in other partners and then employees and stuff. I don't know. It's been fascinating just realizing that to build this, it wasn't about me. It was about... I don't know, just that whole thing. I think anything great, a lot of times there's a person that gets credit for it. Like, Elon Musk gets credit because whatever or Bill Gates or whoever the people are, they get the credit for it. You start really seeing how many people are involved to make something amazing. You know what I mean? I think that's the biggest thing for me as I started growing it. It's frustrating. Not frustrating for me. I enjoy it. People are always asking, "Russell invented ClickFunnels." I literally don't know how to code anything. There's not one dot of code in that word. Maybe once I leaned over Todd's shoulder, put a button in that and he had to delete it. I think it's cool that you see how many... Before Funnel Hacking Live, every time we start we bring our whole team together. I'm the one who's on stage, but I am fully aware that it is not me. This is us. If it wasn't for this team and these people, all you guys, all your contribution, this was impossible. I want to always ground that because I think sometimes the leader or whoever gets a big head where they think it's them. I see that with a lot of people who are on big stages where they still drink their own Kool-Aid so they think it's them. That's my shift in the world, just understanding the great things, the things that we remember. The things that are legacies that go on and on and on. There may be a head or a person that the branding tied too, but there's this group of people that created something amazing. That's… know what I mean? Josh: How do you stay grounded? I am a huge fan of Russell because for me, you're the person I look up to as not just, hey, you taught me how to make a lot of money, but I want to have the character that you have. I don't want to have... I look at Grant Cardone. You don't have to talk smack about Grant Cardone, but I can. Grant Cardone is really, really full of himself. Don't get me wrong. I learned a lot from Graham Cardone, especially about money. He's changed my perspective about a lot of things. I'm eternally grateful for that, but if I grew up to be Grant Cardone, where that was the focus.., I mean, I watched him, I was there at the stadium down in Miami or whatever. It was all about him. I think he even got up on stage and was like, "Oh yeah, everybody says Russell is the greatest salesman, but I'm the one that packed the house." I'm like, dude! You know what I'm saying? Why? Why is that necessary? How do you stay grounded? It's so fascinating to me to watch different types of people. I know Tai Lopez for example, for awhile there, it was all about Tai and now he's gone more behind the scenes, but each person that I watch whether it's Tai or Gary or Grant, they all have a different way about them. You have your way about them. The one that I see as the most grounded, humble... There's nobody that's looking at you. You get up on a stage and you're like, "Oh yeah, I'm Russell!" You know what I mean? Russell: Everyone awkwardly, like, "Yay." Josh: Right. Then you walk up and Grant's like... But you, it's just yeah, it's that awkward, "Hey, I'm just over here." How are you grounded in that? How do you not let it get to your head? Because it would be so easy for you to get wrapped up in your own head. Russell: Someone told me it's because of my wife. They said, "If you'd married anybody else, your head would be so big." Josh: I met your wife for the first time today. I mean, we had crossed paths, but I said when you were getting your haircut, "So what's it like being married to Russell?" She goes, "Hes just the sixth child of mine." I was like, oh boy. The big kid. Russell: That's awesome. I think I would say it's two things. We kind of talked about this earlier, but I'll tie back to it. The first one is that I am fully aware that these ideas are not mine. I didn't invent the funnel. I didn't invent any of this stuff. All I know is that I was on a path, in a journey. I was given the thing and the next thing, and I was freaking out and I was putting them together. That's part of it. This stuff's not mine. It's stuff that was given to me and tested and so I'm so grateful for that. It's never me like, "Oh, look what I invented." That's so annoying because it's not. Again, come back to these ideas, these thoughts, these desires and things that were given to us. I think that's the first part. The second part of it is, and I see this a lot in people in my world who, they had some success and then they're like, "This is my person. I made them a bajillion..." I hate that too. Like, you helped them in a piece but they did the work. I'm very careful to always when I'm talking about any of our success stories, I didn't make that person. We had this super-cool opportunity to be a piece to their journey. Right? We helped them give them some ideas and a tool, but they're the ones that killed. I don't know what it takes to build what they're building. I didn't do that. They did that. I'm grateful that they did and I'm even more grateful that I got to be a little piece of that. I got to be part of that journey. I got to see that and just have the impact of, oh my gosh. Because I killed myself and wrote those books and because Todd killed himself and wrote software and I was able to communicate it, they're able to do this thing and it's not all me. I'm fully aware it's not all me. I know what every entrepreneur has to go through to be successful and it's not a mentor who gives you everything. It's just a lot of people who are a piece. I've had mentors who gave me a piece that I'm so grateful for, but then they try to take all the credit, like, "Oh, this is when..." I hate that too. So I think those two sides. Number one is again, I don't think these ideas are something that I came up with. They were given to me and I was a good steward of them because I was able to aggregate and there's the thing. The number two is just my belief that I didn't help anyone. Even when you said, "You and Katie," I felt awkward. I didn't do anything. Josh: Right. Russell: Luckily some of the stuff resonated with you and it was a little piece of your journey. I'm so grateful for that. The fact, to see you do stuff now, it's so much fun for me to watch you. Just knowing, "Man, because he bumped into me, maybe something happened and now he's doing this stuff and this work and it's so cool seeing how you're impacting people." I think those are the reasons why I don’t think my head gets big, because I don't think it's me. I'm grateful that I get to be a piece of it, of the journey, but I'm not the creator of it. Josh: All right. I want to loop back to the book. Russell: Go ahead. Can we just read it? You guys want us to read it to you? Josh: Yeah. What was the thing that fascinated you about it though? When you've asked me, you were like, "Dude, I read it and I'm geeking out about it, I just want to geek out about it." What about it had you so fascinated? What did you want to geek out about it? I have a question that I want to ask later on about it, but what was the thing that just made you geek? Russell: There are a lot of things. I think the biggest thing that I was really excited, we talked about earlier was just… The biggest thing earlier was just this cons-... Again, for those of you who are tuning in late in here, there's the whole, it talks about greed. Right? And that concept of greed versus charity. Again, the book very much is like, greed is good, it's the thing that causes production and you should care about yourself and then good things will happen, it will create jobs and everything else will take care of as long as you're caring most about yourself. Which I thought was kind of cool but then also I had the other side with my beliefs in Christ and Christianity and all these things like that, where it's just like, how does that reconcile with faith, hope, charity and love, and serving everybody else? That's probably the thing that got me the most. I think about that a lot, especially in politics. Again, I'm not deep into politics, I'm not going to talk about who I'm voting for, not voting for, it doesn't matter. But I see that on both sides. I feel like on the Republican side you see a lot of this stuff, like this. Then on the Democrat side, you see a lot of the charity stuff. Again, in my notes I wrote this actually initially, because I wanted to talk about this. I'm a big believer that there's not a right and wrong. There's good in both sides. Josh: There's not a right or wrong side. Russell: Yeah. Things are messed up on both sides. It's how the world works. Satan, there's this eternal struggle between God and Satan and Christ, this is always happening. So there's two sides and there's God-like principles and things on the right that are amazing and then there's Satan that's twisting things and jacking them up. Same thing on both sides. I see everyone fighting tooth and nail and I bet you, if we all sat down, the majority of all issues we'd all agree on. But then it's these fringe things that causes so much hatred and fighting and just drives me crazy. I think that this book is the perfect example of what I believe so much in some of these principles, but there's also the opposite principles that I also believe in and they're both right. If you missed the beginning part of the interview, we talked more about that but the greed, the growth and contribution, that transition is the key that just fascinates me. Josh: Yeah. What parts of the book contradicted the most with your faith? What part of the books did you have the hardest time with because of your faith? Russell: Yeah. The producers in the book, the minds, the people that I connect with, because I self-identify as a producer, someone who's obsessed with production and creating. That’s why I relate with Hank Rearden, Dagny, all these people are cut from my same cloth. It's as they're growing this stuff that they didn't give back, that they didn't... That's the thing. I felt like they weren't rounded out characters and that's the biggest thing for me. The first half of the book, I want to be Hank Rearden. He's fricking the man. Like yes, that's all I want to be. I wanted to see him have that change of heart where he's Christ-like and he gives of his own free will. Not because the government came with the gun and told him he's got to pay taxes. I wanted to see his character develop and realize that, "Oh my gosh, I should be serving people because I love them. Not because of the government's force." That's the piece that I wish. Josh: It never took that turn. The book, you almost expected it and then it didn't happen. Russell: It got worse and worse and worse and then they waited until just everything... People were dying, everything collapses and then the lights in the yurt go out, wooh, and they're like, "Okay, now we can come back and build." Josh: Now we can go back and build, but even when they come back and build, it was built by our new law of basically... Actually, one of the things that's fascinating about that was... Gosh, it was towards the end. Was it Galt? I think it was Galt. Yeah, I think it was during his speech when he was like, "The minds society, we gave all this stuff to you guys basically." Trying to be like God there, but every day, we created all this stuff, we created these jobs, we created these resources. We gave it to you and all we wanted from you guys was for you to let us be in our own head. Let us, our minds be free and not be controlled by anything else. You took all that and not only did you take it all, then you said, "No, you're bad and we're going to take that away too. So we're all going on strike because of that." You relate to that so much and then it's like, yes! Then they explained how they live and it's like, you expect them to have that change of heart rather, but no. It's because we are amazing and because we are the great minds and we must live by this code. It has nothing to do with actually giving back or actually contributing to society. It was like they didn't care about contributing to society. It just happened to happen. Russell: Yeah. Which is cool, which is why again, governments should let producers produce because the byproduct is really good. Josh: Right. Russell: For everybody. So that part is so much I relate to. Part of this is probably because Ayn Rand didn't believe in God. You know what I mean? That wasn't part of her values and so it's tough because she weaved that... I just wish at the end of the book, it would have been like, and then Hank Rearden realized that he could help all these people himself and so he built orphanages and changed all these kids' lives. Like, yes! That would have been amazing. He found about OUR and he went and donated money to save all these children. Josh: Right. Russell: But he did it of his own free will because he had that change of heart. I don't want to die at the end of my days and... I produced some great jobs, but I didn't care about people. I feel like that missed the mark. Josh: Hank Rearden you say is the person you related to really most in the book? Russell: Yeah, I think so. I wanted to be Francisco though, he was pretty sweet. Josh: Who do you think I related to most in the book? Russell: Oh. Who was it? Josh: It was a relatively main one. You were close. Russell: Oh, was it Francisco? Josh: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah. Russell: He was cool. Josh: Right from the beginning he fascinated me. I knew right when, the plot twist of where he ran off and became the playboy or picture, he was obviously a playboy or whatever. I knew right then and there. I don't know what the plot, I don't know what the connection is but I know this is going to come back around and it's not going to be how it seems. The mind doesn't shift and then he stays in the scene or whatever. He fascinated me because, or he strikes me as someone... Hank Rearden didn't care about the crowds. He did not at all. He hated going to the wedding. It was by force that his wife drug him out there that one time. It was always, "I just want to work in my office." I'm actually not like that. I am actually much more the... I do like the crowds, but I don't like the crowds because I need praise. Don't get me wrong, I like being on stage and doing this type of stuff or whatever, but for me, I like the crowds because I love people. It's funny because I actually don't get along with a lot of people in real life. Whenever I go to the airport, I'm like, I will pay whatever it takes. Put me on a plane first, the least amount of people I have to deal with, whatever. I don't want to have to interact with people that I don't want to interact with. But I love studying and understanding people's minds. For me, one of the reasons I am so fascinated by Donald Trump is because of how he can control the crowds. You look at his rallies. Dude, you can't ignore them. They're just huge. My fiance's parents, or her mom and Kirby went yesterday, I think it was last night, to Omaha. 29,000 people showed up in the bitter cold of Omaha, a last-minute notice. That type of control or not even control, but that type of influence to be able to go through, what is it that makes people go and do that? So Francisco in the book, he was the partier guy and he went and he was with the crowds and he was very good with words and articulated, but he sold me at that wedding. I'm telling you. Russell: That was good. Josh: To me, there's more than two ways, but super simplified down, there's two ways to influence people. There's one, which is the indirect, which is build a software company, it's build a product, it's build an iPhone. You're not directly influencing them with your words or whatever, but it's influencing their behavior by creating a product, by creating a service that's going to go out and change the world. Then the other way is to actually go out there and change them with your words. That's why Jesus, for example, Jesus didn't build the product. He did it through His words kind of, sort of, but to me that's so fascinating. If I can figure out how to do that, that's how I can affect real change in the world. And it's funny because you've had had such a massive influence on my life, but probably a year and a half maybe ish into me knowing ClickFunnels, I was like, "Man, Russell's doing it all wrong." I had this thing of, if Russell would communicate more about stuff besides funnels, he would have a bigger impact. I had this limited belief of, this is the only way you can influence and impact people, is by going out there and actually speaking to them. But that's my superpower and my gift. In the book, Francisco was the one I think that best represents my style of trying to go out and do things. I find it interesting by Hank Rearden with you… Russell: I'm the same way. I would rather be in here building funnels, doing some stuff. There's scenes of Hank in the book where he's sitting there looking out over the factories at night and he sees, he watches the steel being poured, it's glowing. He's enjoying that. For me, it's similar where I do the stage thing and things like that. I get less value… interactions are hard, but I spend a lot of time on social media at night, just looking at the people that I know are in our world and watching what they're doing because that's me watching the steel. My mission is not to go teach people how to do what you do. I'm giving you a blow horn so you can go do it. That's more fascinating to me to sit back and explain to my wife. Events drive her crazy because then it'll happen and it'll get done and then I scurry off and I don't want to talk to anybody. I sit in the room and I just watch what people takeaways and then who they're talking to. I spend a lot of time just watching. That's for me like looking over the steel and being like, I gave them a trumpet or I gave them a blow horn and now their messages are going out there and I can just watch it. So for me, I don't want to teach personal development and this and that, but I want to empower or give tools or whatever tools there are so that you can and whoever all the other influencers are to be able to do those things. Does that makes sense? I'm an amplifier. I'm an amplifier of other people's messages and my message just happens to be, "Here's the amplification that you need to amplify your message," and then letting everybody else go and do it.

Welcome to the first episode in a special 5 part series. Over the course of these next 5 episodes, you’ll get to hear an interview between Russell Brunson and Josh Forti about the book “Atlas Shrugged” by Ayn Rand. But this interview is much more than just them talking about the book, they are actually discussing business, religion, and politics (a subject Russell doesn’t talk about often) as they pertain to the concepts in the book. In this first section, you’ll get to hear the introduction and the basis for how the entire conversation will flow. The first main topic of the book, and the main concept for this episode is greed. Is it bad? Can it be good? Are we born with it? Can we change? So listen in to part one of this unique interview and start reading “Atlas Shrugged” (just read it, the movies aren’t great), so you can be ready for part 2! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. And right now, I have a treat for you. Over the next five episodes, I'm going to be taking you in behind the scenes of an interview that I did with Josh Forti about the book, Atlas Shrugged. And some of you guys have read Atlas Shrugged, some of you haven't. Some of you know the premise, some of you don't. And I want to preface this by saying I do not believe in everything taught in the Atlas Shrugged book. I love a lot of it. It talks about producers versus consumers, the looters and the takers versus those in society who are the creators. Right? And there's a lot of things I strongly align with. There's also things that I don't strongly align with. And so I love the book, one of my favorites I've ever read. And so that's the first thing. Number two is, as I finished the book, I remember Josh Forti, who's one of our funnel hackers, he wanted to do the interview with me and I was just like, "I don't have time for interviews." And we're getting closer and closer to the election, we talked on Facebook. We were posting some comments and I was like, "You know what? The interview that I would actually love to do would be about Atlas Shrugged, looking at the whole political thing as it's happening right now and the elections and everything, through the lens of Atlas Shrugged. That'd actually be fascinating for me," because I don't typically, as you know, talk about politics. Right? I do talk about religion, but I don't talk about politics. That's not something I typically go into, but I thought it'd be interesting to look at politics from the lens of Atlas Shrugged. And so in this interview series, it's a lot of fun. We talk about producers versus consumers. We talk about the left and the right. We talk about some political things. Now Josh, just so you know ahead of time, he's very pro-Trump, very much on that side of the discussions during this interview. And this interview, just so you know, took place before the elections. As of right now, I'm still not sure who won. You guys probably will know by the time you're listening to this, but as of when I'm recording this, we don't know, but he definitely leans on the Trump side. I don't really share much of my political beliefs, but you'll get kind of what I believe and why I believe it through the lens of Atlas Shrugged over this interview series. So I hope you enjoy it. It was a lot of fun to do, a lot of great feedback and comments. And again, we talk about stuff I don't typically talk about ever. So this may be a one-time shot to hear inside my mind when it comes to politics, religion, and all through the lens of Atlas Shrugged, the book. So with that said, I want to introduce you guys to the first part of this five-part interview series with me and Josh Forti, talking about Atlas Shrugged. Russell Brunson: Are we live? Josh Forti: We are live. Russell: What's up, everybody? Josh: Oh, my word, with the incredibly ... I don't know if long-waited. It hasn't really been that long. Two months ago. So much expected podcast with Mr. Russell Brunson, himself. How are you doing, dude? Russell: I'm doing amazing, man. Thanks for flying all the way to Boise just for this conversation. Josh: Yeah, absolutely. Dude, this is probably the conversation I'm looking forward to most, certainly in my life thus far, when it comes to business and philosophy and everything like that. Russell: No pressure at all. Josh: Well, it's funny. Your wife said, "Oh, thanks so much for coming out." I was like, "Yeah, it's certainly ... Yeah, because it's inconvenience to me to fly all the way out here." I will say, this is my first ever in-person interview like this. Russell: Oh, really? Josh: Yeah. Russell: We got the microphones set up. Josh: I know. We have- Russell: He’s a professional. I've never done this before. Josh: Literally, we have a soundboard down here. We've got Russell's mic. Can you guys hear us all right? By the way, guys, for all of you listening on audio, we apologize because we're going to answer some comments in the Facebook feed here because we've got everybody down here. By the way, you can see all the comments down here. Russell: What's up, everyone? Josh: All right, guys. If you are live, comment down below. Let us know where you're tuning in from. Let us know if you know Russell or if you know me or if you know both of us or what you're most looking forward to. And Russell, I'm going to be honest with you. We're just going to be super chill. Guys, we have a live audience back here. We've got Dave. Dave's over there. We've got Jake and Nick. Russell: What's up, Dave? Josh: Where'd Jake go? Russell: Jake's working. Josh: Oh, there we go. Jake's working late over there. Russell: Jake, by the way, designed these amazing shirts for this- Josh: Yeah, check us out. Russell: This is my Rearden Steel shirt. This is my Who Is John Galt shirt. Josh: Isn't this great? Okay, but I feel like the back- Russell: Yeah the back I’ll read what it says. It says, "I started my life with a single absolute, that the world was mine to shape and the image of my highest values never to be given to a lesser standard, no matter how long or hard the struggle." So do you guys like these shirts? These are custom made for tonight. And you guys may have a chance to get one of these, but not yet. No, not yet. Josh: Not yet. Russell: We'll let you know when the ability ... If you guys ... Josh: Oh, man. Oh, man. Russell: Anyway, it's going to be fun, but these are custom ... We literally made these today. We needed some sweet shirts…for the show. Josh: Okay, Will says he got your text. Did you send my text to everybody? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Russell on top of it. I sent out a ManyChat, Russell sent out a text. All right, guys. Let's lay some ground rules here. So the quick backstory behind this ... And it's going to be weird. You've got to look in the camera here. Quick backstory behind this is I make a post on Facebook about, what, probably three months ago now or so? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Two, three months ago. And I go, "We need some epic people to interview for the podcast. Who do you know? Tag them all down below." And shout out, Georgie. Georgie comments and goes… "I coached Russell. You should totally interview me." And I was like, "You've got to be pretty gutsy to tag Russell in your comment and tell him you coached him," but then Russell comments back- Russell: And George is an Olympic wrestler. He was on the Bulgarian Olympic team. He wrestled at Boise State with me. He's the man. So yeah. Josh: I commented back. I go, "You coached Russel?" And then Russell goes, "Well, yeah. He coached me. He's awesome. You should totally interview him." And so I said, "Yeah, Georgie, of course, you can come on. We'll do an interview, but Russell, I've got an open invitation to you if you want to come back on." And then you were like, "Sure, if we can talk about…" or no, you didn't say sure. You said, "Can we do it about Atlas Shrugged?" Russell: Yes. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Because I interview a lot about business stuff and- Josh: I'll pull the microphone just slightly. Russell: Yes. I don't do a lot of interviews because ... I feel like I've said, but I don't want to say, but I just finished literally probably the fattest book in the history of books called Atlas Shrugged. And I was geeking out on it and I wanted to talk about it. I didn't have a way or someone to geek out with, other than some of my friends here. And I was like, "If you want to talk about Atlas Shrugged, I'm in." And then you started freaking out. Josh: The funny thing was is I go something to the effect of, "You want to talk about the fall of capitalism because of a boycott, because of a brilliant person and why socialism sucks? Yes, absolutely. I would love to do that," to which you don't give me a yes or no answer. You reply back and go, "Ha-ha. Oh, man. That'd be fun." I'm like, "Talk about an open loop, man. Come on." So anyway, I immediately messaged Russel and I'm like, "You better not be joking because that would just be rude." He goes, "No, I'm totally in." Josh: So about two months go by. You had a bunch of stuff. You had some fun stuff during that time, hanging out with- Russell: Lot of stuff is happening. Josh: Tony Robbins? Russell: Yeah, Tony, man. And it's been chaos the last couple months, not going to lie. And as we got closer and closer to the election, I'm like, "This is an interesting conversation, post-election, but I think it's more interesting before election." And so was it two days ago, three days ago, you're like, "I will fly to Boise to record this." Josh: Yeah. Russell: "What day do you have open?" I'm like, "Only Wednesday night." And now we're here. Josh: Yeah. It was Friday afternoon. We were Voxing back and forth and you're like, "Dude, we've got to get this done before the election." I'm like, "Before the election? Oh, my word." I said, "All right. Sounds good. What time do you have available?" And that's when I was like, "You know what? I was going to ask you creatively, but I'm just going to ask you. How about I fly out to you?" And you're like, "Heck, yeah." Josh: So guys, that's the backstory. That's how we got here. And so this is an open conversation about Atlas Shrugged and kind of everything that encapsulates. I think we'll talk about some religion, some politics, kind of both sides of the aisle there and open it up. Russell: Fun. Josh: Anything else you want to add to that? Russell: The only other thing I would add is, because this book, by the way, if you haven't read it yet, is very polarizing. There are people on both sides of it. Russell: And I think both of us wanted to stress ahead of time that I do not believe in everything in this book. A lot of things in this book, I do believe in. And it's interesting. One of the things I want to dive deeper in in this conversation, I'm excited for and I told you not to do Voxer. I was like, what's fascinating to me is not, "This is what we should believe." What was fascinating to me as I was reading this book, and we'll get into the premise of the book for those who haven't read it, but the big thing is producers and going out there and creating stuff and doing things, which is what entrepreneurs do. Right? And it gets in the part of greed is good. You should be greedy because it's going to create all these amazing things, which then the byproduct's really good. Russell: And part of me is like, "Yes, yes, yes, yes," and then part of me, as a believing Christian, I hear this message I believe in and then I hear in my mind ringing Christ, talking faith, hope, charity, and love. And I feel like they're these two polar opposite things, which by the way, we dive into politics a little bit. There are two polar opposite sides, one that believes one, one believes the other. Russell: And I think that there's a happy medium and that's what I want to dive deep into just because I don't want anyone thinking, "Oh, Russell and Josh just believe this," or whatever. It's like, no, there's sides of this and I empathize on both sides. I want to talk about both of them because they're fascinating. Anyway, I've toyed writing a boy about this concept, these two things. Anyway, I think it should be fun to first time verbally ever talk about this stuff. So I'm excited for it. Josh: Yeah. And I would just echo that, as well. I think one of the things that often happens with me, with my ... So funny. You, who never, ever talks about politics and me who doesn't know how to get on Facebook without arguing about politics, colliding here, but is that a lot of times I get grouped into, "Oh, you like this reading. Therefore, you believe with everything." "You read this book," or, "You support this person," whether it's a political figure or a book or something like that. It's like, by saying that you enjoyed that or that you learned a lot from it, that all of a sudden you suddenly believe everything in it. And that is not the case at all. And I've gotten a lot of criticism from people that are like, "How could you possibly like Atlas Shrugged?" And I'm like, "Well, this is the conversation that we're going to have." Josh: So real quick, before we dive in, I'd be curious ... I want to do a poll real quick. How many of you guys have actually read the book? I'm curious to know. Hold up here. There's two different versions of it, but if you've read the book, just comment below the number one if you have read the book, the number two if you have not read the book. I think that will just kind of give us a poll. We've got 200, 300 people. Russell: And if you listened to the audiobook, we'll count that as reading, too, either way. Josh: Yeah. Not if you know the premise of the book, but actually have read the book and have a deep understanding of it, or not deep understanding. But have like… Russell: Understand the stories them in. Josh: Yeah, things like that, because then it'll be interesting. Russell: One is read. Josh: One is read, two is not read. Oh, more ones than I thought was going to. Russell: Yeah. Me too. Josh: Russell's book is so underrated. Russell: We're 50/50. Josh: Ooh, yeah. I think we should take a poll at the end; what's better, Atlas Shrugged or Dotcom Secrets? That's the real question we should be asking right now. Russell: That would be good, that would be good. Josh: Okay. So we have a lot of people that have not read it, so we'll have to go into the premise of that. Okay. Russell: Are you ready to get started? Josh: Yeah. I'm ready to rock and roll with it. Russell: Oh I’m ready. Josh: Okay. Guys, we want to lay a couple ground rules. Okay? Because I don't know what it's like to be Russell, Russell doesn't know what it's like to be me, but I think we both have a mutual understanding that we could very easily be taken out of context here. Josh: I think the goal, and then I want you to kind of expand upon this, is we're not trying to take a side here. We're trying to have an open discussion about it. This could very easily turn into something that's like, "Why did you vote for Trump? Why Biden sucks, why Biden's great, why Trump sucks," something like that or certain religion. We're not trying to convince you of anything, really. In fact, this is honestly more of a conversation for us. And we're like, "We think it'd be cool to stream it out to a bunch of people because there's a reason for me to fly out here and do that," but the purpose of this is to have an open discussion about the book, the premise of the book, an understanding of it, and then honestly we're probably going to be in our own little world over here. Josh: And we want you guys to interact and comment and engage and push your questions. And we'll go back through it, obviously, but the purpose of this is not to try to convince anybody of anything. It's simple to, at least from my perspective, shed a new perspective and give the perspective of somebody who, for those of you that don't know who Russell is, the founder of a ... ClickFunnels is a billion-dollar company, SaaS company. You have 400 employees? Russell: Yeah. Josh: 400 employees. So from that perspective and from my perspective, to open your eyes to a new perspective of what we like, what we don't like and, like I said, more of a conversation for us. Russell: Yeah. I think that's good. And I think a big thing that we will talk about ... Our goal is not to convince you of anything. In fact, I think I'm still convincing myself of both sides. I believe both these two things that seem contradictory, but I think there's a middle ground and I'm excited to explore it. So it'll be fun. Josh: Cool. So I think we got to- Russell: Talk about the premise of the book? Josh: Yeah, we've got to talk about the premise of the book. Russell: I might have a little mini statue behind me that might help. Can I grab that? Josh: Ooh, yeah. Russell: Okay. So folks that have not read Atlas Shrugged, I didn't know what the premise was at first, but this is the story of Atlas. Some of you guys know Atlas was cursed to have to carry the entire weight of the universe, entire weight of the world upon his shoulders for forever. Right? And so this is where the premise of the book ... All of us, people who are listening to this might guess that you are a producer. Right? Otherwise, you probably wouldn't be listening to me or to Josh. I attract, I teach, I coach, I help producers, entrepreneurs, people who are trying to change the world. Right? Russell: I'm curious, how many of you guys have ever felt this pressure. Right? When you feel like you literally have the entire weight of the world upon your shoulders. And if you haven't, it's time to become a producer. That's first off. Second off, I can empathize, though. There's so many times, you can ask Dave or any guys on my team, there's days I come in, I was like, "I feel like I'm going to crack." There is so much weight to carry this around. And I'm guessing most of you guys have felt that. It could be with your family, could be in work, could be business, whatever, but you've felt the weight of the world. Right? Russell: So this is what Atlas had to hold. Right? And so the premise of the book, Atlas Shrugged, is what would happen if the producers, the people that are carrying the weight of the world on their shoulders, what happens if they were to go on strike and they were to shrug their shoulders and be like, "Meh." In fact, should I read your tile you gave me here? Josh: Yeah. Russell: So Josh, as a gift today, gave me some amazing tiles. This is a quote, actually, from the book, Atlas Shrugged, talking about this. It says, "If you saw Atlas, the giant holds the world on his shoulders. If you saw that he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms trembling, but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his strength, and the greater of his efforts, the heavier the world bore down on his shoulders, what would you tell him to do? Just shrug." That's things like, what happens to society when us, the producers, when we no longer want to carry the weight of the world? We shrug and we walk away from it. Russell: And the book is a story about that. What happens when these producers start disappearing and they start leaving, they start going on strike? You see society, what happens when the producers disappear. Josh: Yeah. It's interesting because there is no one named Atlas Shrugged in the book and there's nobody named Ayn Rand in the book. And so there's concepts that she's writing about outside of that and it's this ... How do you summarize a 1200-page book? Basically, in the book, there is a main character by the name of Dagny. Russell: Oh. Yes. Josh: Oh. Russell: I was going to say John Galt, but you're right. Yes, Dagny’s the main character. Josh: Sorry. For the first two thirds of the book, the main character is a woman by the name of Dagny. And basically, she is one of the producers of society. And she's not the head boss of the railroad, but she's basically the person that runs this railroad company. And it is written, what, 1950 is when this was- Russell: Yeah. Josh: So 1950, and it's basically this forecast into the future of a government that is basically forcing super, super strict restrictions onto private businesses and making them do things, kind of like today in America, but super, super government overreach in a lot of ways. And so Dagny is trying to keep the world afloat, more or less, by getting the railroads done on time and getting orders shipped. Josh: And I'm super oversimplifying, but around her, all the people that she works with that owned all these other companies that she would buy copper from or she would buy steel from or buy the railroad track from or buy the coal from, all of a sudden all these head people ... Imagine people like Russell, all his friends just start disappearing. Imagine Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and Russell all just started disappearing. Right? That's what's happening all around her and she doesn't understand what's happening to them because just, one day, it's up and it's gone. Josh: And so the premise of the first two thirds of the book is showing this story of this producer who is living in this world of super government tyranny, overreach that's super, super controlling and she's watching all of her friends disappear and she doesn't know why. Would you say that's a pretty good explanation of it so far? Russell: Yeah. And every time they disappear, they leave behind a note or something that says, "Who is John Galt?" That's this theme throughout the book, is who is John Galt? Who is this John Galt person that makes all the producers disappear? Josh: And Dagny has no idea who John Galt is. Right? She doesn't even know, actually, for awhile that John Galt's actually even a real person. And so once she does find out that John Galt is probably a real person, John Galt becomes her sworn enemy because she doesn't know who he is or what he's doing. All she knows and all she associates with is that John Galt is taking away all these producers of society and is making her life harder because ... Imagine you being an entrepreneur and all of your entrepreneur friends that you buy stuff from and that you send all your people to, your referrals and everything, you buy all your supplies from, imagine they're all just disappearing and you think it's because of this one guy who's taking them all away and you don't know what's happening to them. Obviously, they'd become your sworn enemy. Josh: So for the first two thirds-ish of the book, that's kind of this premise of they're painting this really, really vivid story of the ... what are they called, the great thinkers of society? Yeah, the great minds of society, basically disappearing. And Dagny and ... there's a guy by the name of Hank Rearden, I think. Russell: Yeah, Rearden Steel. Josh: Rearden Steel, yeah. So Dagny and Hank Rearden are the two major ones left right before the big plot twist happens and you're like, "Oh," and then you get introduced to John Galt. I'm going to let you explain John Galt now. Russell: Oh, man. Okay. So that's the first two thirds of the book. By the way, there's movies. Don't watch them. They'll ruin the book. The movies were really bad. Josh: Yeah. Read the book. Russell: So two thirds into the book, she starts trying to figure out this mystery of who's John Galt. She ends up finding him and turns out that he has been going around and getting all these producers to go on strike, convinces them to, "Look, it's not worth fighting for anymore. All your incentives are gone. Let's leave. Let's go on strike," and they leave. And John Galt's trying to get her to leave and she's like, "I can't. I have to do everything in my power." The last third of the book is her leaving John Galt's presence and going back and trying to figure out how to do this thing as she's watching just government regulations getting harder, and harder, and harder, and harder to the point where everyone just has to disappear. Russell: But one of the things John Galt and the people say, "When the lights of New York go out, then we'll come back and we'll rebuild society from the ground up, after the looters and the people are gone." Josh: And that's basically how the books ends is lights of New York go out and then- Russell: For such a long book, all of a sudden it just ends and you're like, "Oh, I need one more chapter. Come on. Just end it." Josh: And we're never going to get it. Ah. Russell: Well, maybe I'll write it. Josh: Yeah. So that's the storyline of the book, but what I think we really both want to focus here is kind of the premises and the overarching ideas that the book presents, and capitalism versus socialism, and I think we'll talk religion and politics and kind of everything that’s in that, but I kind of want to, if it's all right with you, I kind of want to turn the conversation more towards us now and just kind of start geeking out just about that. Josh: So guys, we'll obviously go back and ... By the way, we want all your comments if you're ... Actually, comment below right now. Where are you watching? Are you watching it on YouTube? Are you watching it on Think Different Theory page or are you watching it on Russell's page? Comment down below because we went to multiple different locations. So we have a bunch of different people tuning in for everything. So just comment down below. Leave your comments, leave your questions, smash the like button, love button, share this out, and we're going to be here. Josh: All right, Russell. What's up? Russell: Hey, man. Josh: All right. Dude, I've been wanting to, and I hate this terminology, but just pick somebody's brain like yours for the longest time. And this book, oh, my gosh. So what do you like about the book? What was your favorite thing? Russell: Yeah. Well, let me tell the backstory. So 2008 is when the market crashed last time, right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I didn't realize that, that year, over 500,000 copies were sold organically by people talking to me about it, talking about, "Everything's she's prophesying is happening right now." And so, back then, I remember all my entrepreneur friends, like, "You have to read this book." It was the word-of-mouth buzz that sold 500,000 copies of a book has been ... The author died, whatever, 30 years earlier. There's not active marketing out there. It's crazy. And everyone's talking about it, like, "What's happening in this book is happening in 2008." And it was just this prophecy that was being fulfilled. Russell: And so everyone in 2008 was telling me to read this book. I remember buying it and I was like, "This is a really, really big book." And it took me awhile to get into it and I could never get into it. I read the first, I don't know, first 200 or 300 pages four or five times. And then, finally, this summer, one of my very first trips where I didn't bring a laptop since my marriage. So my wife is very proud of me. Josh: Dang. Russell: And so as I was leaving the office, I grabbed this book. And I picked it up and I was like, "I have no computer, but I've got this." And usually, I bring 20 books just because I know I'm going to read. I just brought one and I was like, "I'm going to do this. I'm going to be forced. I'm on a lake for a week and a half with my kids and all I can do is read this book." So I brought it, got the audiobook, as well. It's funny, I do the same. I listen to the audiobook and I read along so I can listen to it way faster, that way. And I started going through it. It took me a little while. She does such a good job of character development at the very beginning, it took awhile to get into it. Josh: Yeah, for sure. Russell: And then the story hits and then you're just like ... And you couldn't- Josh: It's like thing, after thing, after thing. It's so quick. Russell: Oh, yeah. And it got crazy. So for me, it was interesting because I think, if I would've listened to it 10 years ago or read it 10 years ago, I had never experienced any of the things they talk about in this book. Right? Josh: Now you don't have to worry about it. Yeah. Russell: Even better. I never experienced government regulations and things like that or just those kind of things. And as ClickFunnels has grown from me and Todd to our first member, to our first thousand, 10,000, 100,000 members, 400 ... I don't know how many employees, a lot, 400 plus employees. As it's grown, it's been crazy because you would think all we'd be focusing on here inside ClickFunnels is the next feature in the app, next thing. Russell: And there's the year where we had to spend an entire year just refactoring the software for GDPR compliance. We have regulations that come in on taxes and this. It's constant where most of the battles we fight at ClickFunnels right now is not about, how do we make this thing better for the customer? It's, how do we protect our customers from the government? It's crazy. And just so many regulations and things. Russell: And so I have been feeling this pressure. Some of you guys may have seen my interview I did with Tony Robbins ... not interview, but Tony Robbins did an intervention with me last year in Fiji. Josh: Yeah. That was fascinating, by the way. Russell: I'm so glad we captured that. It was a really cool moment in my life, but if you listen in there, I talked about ... He's like, "Well, what do you want to do?" And I was like, "I don't know, but the pressure ... I love the same, so I love everything I'm doing. I love the people we're serving, but there's these other pressures that aren't the game, that aren't the people, that they just get so heavy sometimes where it makes me want to just walk away." And again, as I'm reading this book- Josh: You hadn't read the book at the time. Russell: I hadn't read it yet. Josh: Yeah, okay. Russell: As I'm reading this, it's like- Josh: Did you know anything about the- Russell: I did not know the premise, no. Josh: You knew nothing. Okay, okay, okay. Russell: I didn't know what Atlas Shrugged meant. I was just like, "Oh, it's Atlas ..." I didn't know ... And it was like, when I read this title, like, "What would you tell Atlas if this was happening? Just shrug." And I was like, "Oh, that's why they called it Atlas Shrugged." And then I remember vividly feeling the pressure of this calling and how heavy it is. Russell: And there's so many times I wish, like, "Okay, sometimes it'd be so nice to walk away or to shrug or whatever." And so I instantly, with Dagny's character, I was like ... I feel that with Hank Rearden. I had so much empathy and understood their characters because I feel that so many times. Hank Rearden just wanted to invent his steel and put it out. That's all he cared about, right? For me, funnels are my art. I can't draw, but funnels, that's my art and entrepreneurship. That's my art. And so I just want to do my art. That's it. He just wanted to create steel. And it's all these other things and it's just like, "I just want to do my steel. I just want to do my art. Why do I have to deal with all this other stuff?" Russell: And so as I'm reading this, I just had so much empathy for the characters because I felt like I was the characters, even though it was weird because it's railroads and stuff like that and I'm internet, but I think that's why I really got into it. And then I got just curious, what happens? How does this story end? Be I'm in the middle of it. And depending who's listening, you may or may not have felt some of these pressures. As you grow, you feel them. Russell: It's interesting. As ClickFunnels has grown, we've talked about the pressure that I feel today would've crushed me five years ago. Right? And so you have to go through this thing where you build capacity to handle the next set of pressure, and build capacity, and build capacity. And nowadays, stuff happens daily that's just like, "Man, that would've destroyed me five years ago." Russell: And so I think, if you guys haven't felt that, as you grow, as you continue to try to get your message out and try to grow your businesses, whatever, the bigger you get, the more that pressure comes. Josh: Do you think…with that ... And I want to continue that because it's such a good conversation, but with the pressure, the things that are happening now daily that would've wrecked you five years ago or three years ago, whatever it was, do you think it's good, though, that they would've? Is it good that, at the capacity that you understood, that you took those things seriously then or would it have been better for you to just be in this mindset? I know it's not possible, but looking back, if you could snap your fingers and back then would've had the mental capacity to just ignore all those things and go up, would that've been a good thing? Or the fact that you went through all those things, does that help? Russell: The going through it is what makes you worthy of the things, right? Josh: Being able to… Russell: It makes you ready for it. Otherwise, just like lifting weights, if you try to squat 800 pounds, that's what it feels like. Right? Your legs buckle and you die, but because you went through that thing, you're able to have the capacity to hold the weight. Josh: Okay. Russell: Yeah. So anyways, the thing for me that was the big thing is reading this. And so I was just fascinated because I was like, "This is kind of my story. How does it end?" Josh: How long did it take you to get through it? Russell: I'd say about two months. I got a lot of it done on the boat, and then I got into biking for a little while, so I was listening to it while I was biking. Josh: That's right, I remember that. Russell: I just kept biking and biking, like, "One more chapter, one more chapter." I'm in really good shape because of it. It's funny because one of the premises ... And they don't say greed is good, but there's a chapter, I think it's called Greed. And I remember, if you guys have ever seen Wall Street, Gordon Gekko talks about, "Greed is good," and I never understood that premise. Right? In the book, they start talking about that, how greed is what drives this whole thing. Is it called Greed? Josh: I'm trying to find it. Russell: Utopia of Greed, yeah. Josh: And then Anti-Greed. So Utopia of Greed and then Anti-Greed. Russell: So what's interesting is ... because all of us are taught that greed is bad, right? That's just, like, you shouldn't be greedy. That's, I think, a principle that's instilled in most of us, but then I think about, for me, when I started this business, why did I start this business? I wanted to make money. That's greed, right? And you think about any of us, we go through a phase in all of our lives that greed is the driving factor. Right? When I wanted to become a good wrestler, I wanted to become a good wrestler. It was greedy. I went and got coaches and spent all my time and it was a very selfish time in my life. Not that it's bad, but it's a very greedy time. Right? Kids, when they're first born ... I love my kids. They are so ... not in a bad way, but they're greedy. It's about them. Right? Josh: Right. Russell: And it's this growth phase where growth ... You have to be greedy. You're in the growth phase. Right? When you're trying to learn, you're sucking things and you're learning and you're not contributing it. You're just learning, you're growing. And it was interesting because, as I'm going through this, I'm like, the greed is what got me into business. Right? And it's what got these things started and then the byproduct of that is jobs were created and things ... All the byproduct of it is ... I think, in the book, how it justifies it, Hank Rearden going after ... he wanted to build his steel and make a bunch of money, created tens of thousands of jobs and changed the world and changes all these things. Russell: And so the premise of the book is that greed is this driving force that gets you moving. And it is. If you think about any aspect of your life, from sports to education, to business, to everything, it starts with greed. Now, we'll go deeper into this. I don't want everyone to think that I'm just into this for the greed, because there's a transition point. We'll talk about it in a minute, but there's a transition point from growth to contribution that happens, but that's in the book where it starts talking about that. Russell: And I remember I was on the greenbelt here in Boise, riding my bike with James P. Friel, listening to that chapter. And I was trying to think, "Is this true? Did I get started because of greed?" And it's like, yeah, I didn't start a business because I wanted to change the world. Eventually, that happened, but it wasn't like it was ... Greed was the driving force that moved me forward. I think it moves all of us forward such a long time. And as I was listening as I'm riding my bike, I'm like, "Yes, I understand this," and the other half of me was like ... I started thinking about my spiritual upbringing. Right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: I'm very Christian. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints and I started thinking about Christ and his teachings, which are, honestly, the opposite of that. Right? It's like- Josh: Really the polar opposite. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Which it's funny, whenever you say that, people are like, "You know, Jesus was a socialist." I hear that a lot. I'm like, "You need to read the Bible." Anyway, but I think a lot- Russell: But he definitely is way more liberal leaning, 100%. Josh: Right, right. And I think that that's where Republicans, conservative, traditionally on that side of the aisle, fiscally Republicans get into trouble is where we're like, "Yeah, we're Christians, but we also want to get rich," and they never talk about all this other ... People like to use Christianity, I feel like, when it's convenient. Russell: We call it cafeteria Christians. Josh: Right. Russell: They pick and choose the things off the menu they want. Josh: Right. And then they go through and do it. So I definitely want to dive further into that, but continue that. Russell: Yeah. So that started this question in my head, though, of just, so is greed bad then or is it good or where does it fit in the whole grand scheme of things? Because it is something that's instilled in all of us from birth. Right? When you're born, you're a baby, if you didn't have greed, you would just die. Right? It's me. I need food, I need love, I need shelter. It makes you cry, which creates people coming to you. Greed is a driving force that's instilled in humans from birth, right? When we come here, greed is what helps us survive the first part of our life. Russell: And first, I was having this conundrum. I'm just like, "God, is this book evil? I don't know what to do with myself." Right? But all good things in my life that happened happened initially because the seed of greed started me on motion, started me in momentum. And then I started thinking, if you've read the Expert Secrets book, which- Josh: If you haven't, come on. Russell: If you haven't, you must hate money. Come on. No, but in the beginning of Expert Secrets book, I talk about this concept, as well, where as an expert, there's two phases to go through. The first is a growth phase. Right? I want to be an expert in whatever. You go through and you're a consumer, consuming everything. And that's greed, right? And then there's this transition point where, eventually, you keep trying to grow, grow, grow, grow, trying to learn everything, going there. I'm listening to all the podcasts, I'm reading all the books, I'm growing, growing, growing. And eventually, there's this point. I remember feeling it in multiple parts of my life. In wrestling, I felt it. In business, I felt it where you can't continue ... The ability to grow through consumption slows to almost a halt where you can't continue to grow. Right? Russell: I've shared this story. I think I shared it in the book with wrestling. I was a really good wrestler. I was a high school state champ. I took second place in the nation. I was an All-American. And my senior year, I got invited to go to a wrestling camp. My coach was like, "Hey, do you want to come coach wrestling this summer?" And I was like, "Why would I do that? What's in it for me?" Josh: Before you go on here, I want to ask you something. So you're riding your bike, wrestling with this whole greed thing. Is this the first time that you've thought about greed in this way? Russell: 100%. Josh: And this is, what, six months ago? Russell: Not even that. Maybe four months ago. Josh: So you've built most of what ClickFunnels is today and now this is the first time you're really sitting down and wrestling with this idea of greed and is it bad, is it good, what's the balance there and stuff like that? Russell: Yeah. Josh: That's fascinating. Russell: Yeah. It never crossed my mind, really. And then it became this thing where it bothered me because I'm like, "Oh, my gosh. I don't want to be a greedy person." You know what I mean? Josh: Right. Russell: I'm like, "I don't feel like I am," but I was stuck. I couldn't figure that out. Right? And so I'll rewind to the wrestling story because I think it will set it up. Josh: Yep. Russell: But my senior year, again, I'd been growing as a wrestler. I was going to camps. I was getting coaching. I was greedy. I was sucking up everyone's brainpower I could and I became a really good wrestler because of it. And then my coach asked me to go coach a wrestling camp. So I say yes, go to the wrestling camp, and I remember he's like, "Okay, I need you to teach ..." My best move… I'm really good at tilts. So for all the wrestlers out there, I'm really good at cheap tilts. And he's like, "Teach these kids how to do a cheap tilt." Russell: And I was like, "Okay." So I walk out, there are like 30 kids. I'm like, "Yeah, you do this. You just do it like that." And they all look at me and they go try and they try to do a cheap tilt and they all just fall apart. I'm like, "Are you guys dumb? This is not that hard." I'm like, "Come back in, come back in. No, you did it all wrong. This is how you do it." I show them again, like, "Go do it." They go back out, nobody can do it. Russell: And then, all of a sudden, I'm like, "Gosh, they're missing something. What is it?" So I have them come back in and I start breaking down, "Hey, for the move to work, your hips have to be here, your legs have to be here." I start walking through all the things. And as I'm doing that, I start realizing, "Oh, the season why I'm able to do this is because of this," and I started realizing what I was doing as I was teaching people. And as I taught it to people, then the kids started doing it and they got better and better. And all of a sudden, I started realizing, "Oh, my gosh. This move works because of this." Russell: And now that I was aware of the situation, now I was able to make these tweaks and stuff on my own. And I realized that, but coaching the kids, that was the next-level growth. It was a shift from selfish greed growth to contribution. So that's why I started coaching camps every year and that's why I went from slowing down my progression to, all of a sudden, it sped back up again by shifting from growth to contribution. Okay? Russell: And so I think the same thing happens in business, right? I got in business because that seed of greed is in us. It gets us moving, gets us in the momentum. And some people never get out of that. Some people live their entire lives chasing greed and they die and it's a tragedy, but I think for most people, there's this transition point. And I don't know where it happens. It happens different spots for everyone where, all of a sudden, you realize ... you make the money, you started the business, and you realizing how unfulfilling that is. You're tapping out. You're like, "I'm not growing anymore. I thought I wanted money, but I don't. I want growth. That's what we're here on this planet for, is to grow as humans. Right? Russell: You don't get that and, all of a sudden, you realize money's not fulfilling and then you start seeing the other people you're contributing to and you're helping. Then it shifts to ... We hear people talk about, "This is about impact, about growth, it's about helping other people," and that's that transition. That's charity, love. That's pure love of Christ. It's that transition, but greed is the seed that gets us moving, right? And so there's this handoff. It doesn't happen all the time. And are you guys cool if I share scripture stuff? Because- Josh: 100%. Russell: -all this stuff is scriptural. It's not just- Josh: They don't get to decide, Russell. I get to decide. It's my podcast. You can talk about whatever. Russell: If you hate scripture, just close your ears and go, "Blah, blah, blah." So I wrote down some scripture. This is a scripture because it illustrates this point. I think it's so good. Josh: Also, I just want to say, Russell Voxed me and he said that this is the first episode of a podcast that he's ever prepared for. When you said that, I'm like, "Ha! I was the first for something for Russell. Let's go." Russell: I want to be ready. Okay. So this is a scripture. It says, "For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam and will be forever and ever." I'm going to stop right there. Okay. So natural man is an enemy to God. Why is that? We're born. We have this greed inside of us, so the natural human is the enemy of God because we're chasing after greed. Right? But God gives us that seed because it creates momentum. It creates motion. It creates us doing something. Right? Russell: And then it says in here, it says, "For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam, will be forever and ever," and then this is the transition point, "unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit." So he's greedy forever, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and puteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ, the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." Russell: So growth is the seed. It's the natural man. It's the thing we have that's ... It's good, right? God gives it to us because it gets us to do stuff, gets us to learn, gets us to not die in our crib because we need love and attention and to get fed. Right? So then it gets us off our butts, off the couches, us being producers that gets us moving. And if we're not careful, though, the natural man will destroy us. You see so many people who made tons of money and they destroyed themselves in their lives because they don't do that second thing, which is, "Unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit." Russell: That's the thing saying this is not about money, this is about the impact. Look at the people you're changing. And it shifts, right? If you make that shift, all of a sudden, now this thing you’re creating is not about greed, it's like, "Oh, my gosh ..." I remember, for ClickFunnels, when I had that transition was when I started seeing Brandon and Kaelin Poulin. I started seeing the ripple effect of their business. And I can name hundreds of people, person, after person, after person. Russell: I was like, "This isn't about money. This is about the ripple effect of what we've created in each person's life." Now, that's charity. That's love. Now the mission isn't about money. We don't care about the money. We keep score with money, but that's the mission, is the people's lives and the impact. And I think that's that transition where greed is the thing that gets us moving, but if we don't have that ... Russell: I think that's happened in the book. We talked about it. You said this at my house earlier, like, "A lot of people in the book seem like they have a miserable life." And it's like, yeah, because they never yielded to the spirit. They never made that shift. It was all greed to the point where they let everything collapse as opposed to the charity side of things. Josh: Yeah. So one of the things about the book ... And I'm sitting on the plane on the way over here and I'm like, "How do I articulate this?" Because that's always the hardest thing. You have this idea in your head and you're like, "How do I get it out and explain it in a way that somebody else can be like, 'Yes, I understand that?'" I'm going to go kind of political here for a second. I'm going to bring it back, too, specifically to the book. So I am pretty vocally a conservative. Right? I'm a blatant Trump supporter, very much so conservative when it comes to everything fiscal, but I call myself a libertarian because I actually think that I lean left on a lot of social issues. I think the government should stay out of gay marriage. Right? There's a lot of things that I lean left on, but when it comes to money and finances and things like that, I lean to the right. Josh: But the reason I lean to the right and I typically go with the right is because I like what the left is trying to do in concept. It's like, okay, there's a bunch of people that are really truly in need. I agree. We need to help them. The problem is is that the way they go about doing it, I so radically disagree with it. It's against everything that I stand for. Right? I'm like, it's not that I disagree with what you want to do, it's I disagree with how you want to do it. Josh: What's interesting is I feel like, in this book, I feel like it's the opposite. I actually don't agree with why they're doing it. This concept of ... I mean, Hank Rearden says it over and over again, "Everything that I do is for profit." That is it. Even to his friends. He took a bullet for John Galt, right? He gets shot. And John Galt thanks him for it. He goes, "You know I only did it because it's what I wanted to do, right?" Literally saves a guy's life. Josh: So it's all about what he wants and only for him and that's it. And it's profit and money and dollars. It's not about everything that he helps. And I'm like, I disagree with that premise, but what that leads to, I actually do like. And I feel like it's flipped compared to the world I'm living in now. Half the stuff that the Democrats ... I hate to… oh I want to go into politics so bad… Russell: Left and right. Josh: Yeah, the left. Guys, we're going to say left and right. Generalized here, right? Oh, my god, but generally speaking. And so when it comes to the whole greed issue, I'm like ... It's interesting to hear your perspective because I never, even throughout the book, I'm like, "Greed is a bad thing." And hearing your perspective, I'm like, okay, I understand what you're saying, but is it greed or is there some other driving ... If I were to ask you a year ago ... When were you in the heart of ClickFunnels, like a year and a half ago, two years? There was a time of your life when all you ... I know all you do is ClickFunnels, but when- Russell: It's the last six years of my life. Josh: But you know what I mean? Wasn't there a year or two period in there, in the growth phase, where 100% of everything you do was just ClickFunnels, ClickFunnels, ClickFunnels. It felt like you were going nonstop. It feels like you're a little bit more balanced now. Maybe not, but from the outside perspective looking in, it does. Anyway, during that time of growing ClickFunnels, before you read that, would you have described yourself as greedy? Russell: No. Josh: What would you have described yourself as? What's the word? Russell: I don't know. That's a good question. I was always trying to create stuff. It's art for me, right? So it's like I was trying to create stuff. I think, initially, I was creating for myself as opposed to, "Oh, my gosh. I create this for myself, but look what happens to the people." Josh: What point was that shift for you, though? Russell: You can see it in my marketing, by the way. And by the way, for those who are greedy capitalists who only care about money, it actually is a better marketing way, too. My marketing went from- Josh: For all you greedy capitalists out there, switch to being a contributor, you’ll make more money. Russell: Well, think about it. My marketing is always like, "Here's Russell. Here's how much money my funnel made. Here's how much ..." It was me talking about me all the time. And then I realized, "Who cares about me? I don't care about me. Let me show you what this person ... Let me show you all the results of the people we're serving, what's happening there," which first off, is better marketing and, second off, it's that transition where I was literally like, "Everything I've accomplished is stupid. What they're doing, that's the real ... What we're doing, that's the thing that's amazing." Right? That's the spiritual side of it. That's the thing where it's like, the thing that got you into motion now is doing good in the world. And when you start seeing that, it's like, oh, my gosh. That's so much more fulfilling and so much more exciting. Russell: And people ask me, "The last six years, why'd you keep getting up? Do you need more money?" I'm like, "No, that's not what keeps me up," but I can tell you 100 stories of people who ... literally the ripple effect of how many lives they've changed because I did my thing. Right? We made a documentary of the Two Comma Club and Jamie Cross has this whole part there where she's bawling her eyes out and she said, "Where would my family be if Russell wouldn't have fulfilled his God-given calling?" And every time I see that, I start bawling, myself. That's why, eventually, you start doing it. Right? Josh: But when did that shift happen? Russell: I don't know. It wasn't a day that it happened. The energy of it shifted. Right? I don't know. It gradually kind of happened. Josh: What's that? Dave: Tell them about your dad. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Dave, come on in. Dave's here. Dave, take the mic. Here. Dave: Yeah. No, honestly, I think… this has been one of those things. It's been fun for me to watch Russell from the sidelines here. I think, honestly, it was your dad's 60th birthday. Josh: Which was how long ago? Dave: I don't even know. Russell: Three, four years ago probably. Dave: But it was the reflection on that and it was the difference from having your hand raised versus ... because I remember you… Russell: Yeah, you want me to tell that story? Dave: Russell is a much better storyteller. I'll seed the thought, but I'll let him finish. Russell: All right. Josh: Oh, thank you Dave. Russell: Thank you. Interesting. Josh: Guys, we have a live audience here. Russell: So yeah, my dad turned 60 and we have our little family reunion every year we do. And so it was during his birthday. And I remember my mom gave him $60, six $10 bills. And so she gave them to him one at a time and said, "Okay, the first decade was one to 10. Tell us something you remember about that." He's like, "I don't remember anything back then." The second one, he's like, "10 to 20, that's when I was a wrestler. It was so much fun for me." And then, 20 to 30, he was like, "Okay, that's when I was starting my business, trying to figure things out and trying to get our family stable." 30 to 40, "That's when my kids were wrestling and I was coaching them." And then 50 to 60, he kind of went through everything. Russell: And then, after it was done, I asked him, I said, "Well, Dad, of all the decades, what one was the best for you?" Thinking, in my world, the best was going to be when he was a wrestler because I was like, for me, the greatest part of my life was when I was wrestling. And my dad said, "The greatest decade was when I got to coach you." I forgot that story until Dave said that, but I remember coming back and telling Dave and other people that I always thought the best part was being the all star. For my dad, the best part was coaching other people and seeing their hand raised. Josh: That was a good interjection there, Dave. Huh. Russell: …which was really cool.

All Things Franchising With Lance Graulich Josh: Let's talk about all things franchising. You might have a cool idea, a booming business or want to get into one and I want you all to listen up. We've got Lance Graulich here and he is the expert in franchising around the world, the top 1%. So I'm going to ask you here, Lance, tell me, how do you know if you have an idea that's franchisable? Get more tips about franchising at dorksdelivered.com.au Lance: Well, Josh, first of all, thank you for having me from around the world here in Las Vegas. So look, I always talk to people when it comes to franchising, what is your secret sauce? What do you have? What do you have that other people don't? More importantly, what do your customers tell you that you have? Why are you good? And I always call it the secret sauce. Every business has it. Is it your people? You know, I was in a conversation the other day about Starbucks. Starbucks, the founder and CEO Howard Schultz will certainly tell you, it's not about coffee, it's about people. He'll tell you his culture that he built is the secret sauce to why Starbucks is so successful. So that's the short answer to start off. Josh: Cool. So everyone needs to find their secret sauce, I guess is what it comes down to. And that sounds on paper easy enough. But I understand that like, obviously, you have the likes of McDonald's and these huge franchises. Is McDonald's the biggest franchise at the moment? Lance: Well, McDonald's, Subway, those are two of the top right there in units. I mean, Subway has 15,000 just in the United States alone probably now. Josh: Yeah, Subway recently has had a bit of a an upset with their direction. Is that fair to say? Lance: You hit on something very important, because one of the biggest things that I talked to people about when they are looking into a franchise is you have to really like the leadership of the brand that you're looking to get involved with. Because, you know, this is a long term relationship. A typical franchise agreement is 10 years. And it's like dating, you know, you have that first conversation and you decide, is there going to be a second date? So you talk about Subway. Yeah, there have been hiccups along the way. And that typically stems from leadership. As brands are growing, and in some cases, are not growing, all of a sudden, they have a period of time where they go negative. And, you know, the future is not looking so bright. Well, change of leadership means change of strategy. And the new strategy doesn't necessarily always take off as quickly as everybody hopes. And the franchisees isn’t in some cases, the ones that are high performing and doing very well typically are not going to be affected. It's the franchisees that aren't doing as well that, you know, could have the most to lose, I guess you could say at that point. Josh: That makes sense. I guess it's just for lack of a better term, removing the dead wood or clipping the bush. Lance: Trimming the bush Josh: Trimming the bush, that's right. So finding your secret sauce, like, I would say that I've got a team of unicorns that work for me, they're fantastic, and they are the lifeblood of our company. I can say that when I started the business 13 years ago, and it was all me as a single one-man band in my parent's garage as it would be that expanded out. And one of the things I noticed with expanding my business was, I had a process in the way that I did things. And when I brought staff on, they would have a process and the way that they did things all that would be looking to a process and amid the training and that upscaling was quite a long process to get there. One of the things that I've seen with franchising is documentation is paramount and procedural documentation so that you can stir and repeat and have your empire run by 14-year olds is a big key to success. If you don't have documentation, or if you're running a business that is heavily reliant on the professional services industries, where you need upskilled, university degrees and so forth, is there any reason that that should create more friction or less friction towards setting up and selling a franchise? Lance: You know, since technology has become a thing, I think it was 2000 or so that Google really came out strong, might have been about 20 years or so. But as technology has come about, the franchise world has really gotten even stronger in my opinion. Technology is a major advantage to being part of a franchise organisation. You remember the old Yellow Pages, I mean, in the US? You know, you wanted to if you wanted to find any kind of business, you would either call directory assistance, or you would, you know, open up the Yellow Pages and look for an ad on movers or whatever you're doing, you'd find the Yellow Pages. Well, now everything's on Google. So what do all the big companies do? It's all about SEO, Search Engine Optimisation. And the biggest companies is spending their most money there or so, you know, all the franchise brands will show up in the top 10 searches. If you're a lowly little mom and pop, good luck getting discovered when all the franchise brands are spending the money. So look, I mean, the idea of a franchise is that anybody can jump into a franchise. What brands are typically looking for is they're looking for smart people. They don't care if they have any experience in the industry. Let me give you a story. I got a guy. He has 19 franchise hair salons. He was a banker. He didn't even have a retail establishment. He did nothing about retail and hiring employees at all. He was a banker. Had some money. And he's a good friend of mine now, but I met him after he made this deal with another friend of mine who's a franchise consultant like myself. And what we do as franchise consultants, is we listen to what people want in a brand. They don't necessarily have any emotion attached to what the brand is because they don't know what the brand is, but they know what lifestyle they want to have. Are they going to operate it? Are they going to be a semi absentee owner and hire somebody? Are they looking to have a lifestyle where they don't work nights, they don't work weekends, etc.? What's their investment level going to be? So in this particular example, this gentleman has 19 franchised hair salons and guess what, he has no hair, he’s cutting the hair of a customer. And on top of that he doesn't even know how to cut hair. Nor is it a passion or interest of his. So he followed this particular system, an amazing franchised hair salon brand. He nets, nets a million and a half US dollars a year from his hair salons and probably only works about five, six hours a week. Josh: And he's not spending that money on cutting hair obviously, because he doesn’t have any. Lance: He's saving his money on his haircuts. Absolutely. Josh: That's great. So I guess there's two parts to it. So we got the franchise's for go getter investors really it's not about what the product is. It's about go getter investors and making sensible financial decisions, as opposed to buying a pie shop because you really love pies. Somebody went to McDonald's is looking at the numbers, not looking at how the burgers cooks so to speak. Lance: Yeah, I mean, look, anybody can start their own business, you don't need to be in a franchise model. However, to do every single thing yourself, create a logo and trademark it and figure out what the prototype is. What size is just right for this particular business? Is it home based? You know, how do we do it? How do we get the name out there? How much marketing dollar in marketing dollars do we need to spend to get any traction that gets us any attention. There are a million different pieces. Now besides myself owning quite a few franchises and being very successful. I've created some of my own brands and been very successful and sold several of them. So I am a consummate entrepreneur, but I'm also lucky. I was brought up in a very entrepreneurial type family. My dad realised at a young age, my young age at the time, he said, you know, I'm pretty sure you're unemployable like your grandfather's, you better go figure out how to be an entrepreneur. You know, so you can start your own business. But if you can start with a franchise. You know, what I educate a lot of people on Josh is, you can basically get into a franchise as your first venture. And getting into any good franchise will teach you everything you need to know about business in general. And I see a lot of people do that, do really well. And then start to create their own concepts that they have a burning desire to bring to market. Because look, if you have a burning desire to do something, the first step is to look at all the franchise brands and compare and contrast is there's something out there that’s similar to what I already want to do. Do that competitive analysis. And if there truly is nothing and you still think it's a great idea, then go for it. Josh: There was a company just on comparing and contrasting. There's a company called Pita Pit. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Pita Pit. Lance: Oh absolutely. I know the founder of Pita Pit. Josh: Oh cool. We did a lot of their IT support work throughout southeast Queensland and I had a look at Pita Pit versus Subway in Australia. And I personally liked Pita Pit more than Subway. Fresher ingredients, slightly more exotic ingredients. You had more options with the way it was cooked. It became instead of just a sandwich or a raffle stuffing, an experience. Let's use that term. Lance: More creative. Absolutely. Josh: Absolutely. And then all the Pita Pits locally around here we had like eight and we're down to one now and it's ages away. And I had to look at why is that? Now I don't know if Subways done this everywhere. But Subway now started using similar ingredients, similar reps and they sort of looked at it, okay, this is what our competitors doing, wipe them out. The reason I'm saying that when it comes to franchising, is it good to come through with a slightly different idea. I'm not going to say Burger King and McDonald's are the same company pretty much but they are, aren’t they? They really are. And you know who came first. But Burger King or Hungry Jack's, as it is in Australia is still doing fine. They're still doing very well. Is there any problem being, for lack of a better term again, a copycat type business in a franchise or do you have to completely reinvent the wheel? Or what would you say? Getting back to that secret sauce. What's the secret sauce that the Hungry Jack's or Burger King has that McDonald's doesn't or how do they differentiate from an investor's standpoint? And from the end consumers? Lance: It's certainly a great, great question. You know, there was a book many years ago called Raving Fans. And I still think, you know, when I'm looking at franchise brands, I'm looking for who that customer base is, why our customers, use the example of Hungry Jack's or Burger King, why are some customers coming to Burger King versus McDonald's? Is it the product? Is it the convenience? Some brands are definitively a destination. Starbucks in the early days was absolutely destination, they made a conscious decision that they were now going to be a convenience, and they started putting in Drive Thru’s. So all of those things, you know, part of my expertise in franchising also happens to be the restaurant space. So with this question, I would want more of a point of differentiation. I don't want to be another me too look alike type brand. Now to your story on Pita Pit. I don't know the history in Australia and what might have happened. But sometimes you have operators that maybe don't perform for whatever reason, maybe there was a partnership breakup. And it was easier to not pursue Pita Pit, and there was nobody else interested in the market at the time. I could tell you there's a brand right now a friend of mine owns in the US, where he has quite a few of these restaurants. And he's incredibly successful by all standards with these restaurants that he operates. And I think he has eight right now, makes a lot of money. And he's very happy. He's got a great team. Interestingly, this brand has opened about 150 restaurants successfully, but they've closed 52 at this point. Those aren't exactly good numbers, would you say? I mean, definitely not. Josh: One in three is not ideal, no. Lance: But they're still able to sell franchises at a good pace. You know, the most difficult thing is getting to a new market, and really expanding in a new market and doing it effectively. So your customers can actually hear you through all the noise. And it's what I call competitive noise. You know, Starbucks, when they opened in Las Vegas, where I am, Las Vegas isn't that big of a place, about 2 million people and Starbucks literally open eight locations back to back to back to back in no time. Why? Because they wanted to build brand awareness quickly and get out and you know, have enough advertising dollars to share and spend for the entire market. So there are different strategies. But the bottom line is, for me, it always comes back to you know, does your family like the food, because if you like the food, and you can be a customer, there's a chance that this brand can do really well. If your entire family doesn't like the food and nobody knows is going to be a customer. Probably a brand I'm going to try to stay away from. Fair to say? Josh: Yeah, absolutely. One of the things on liking the foods that I found that just recently so only in the last 15 months or so Hungry Jack's and Burger King, before McDonald's released the Beyond Meat patties, the vegan options that then put them as a differentiator in the marketplace. Now I thought cool, okay. And that sort of made me think why hasn't McDonald's done this? And what is their connection to the meat production industry to have not done this? I thought cool, they've done this and then that instantly made it you if you're ordering Uber Eats or something like that. If you're ordering for a few people and there's a vegetarian or a vegan or something like that instantly, you know exactly the place you're going to be going because they’ve made that differentiator. On that, when it comes down to things like Uber Eats, so I understand there's a lot of different ways that franchises can be modeled now Uber Eats isn't a franchise, but you still have solo operators that are going around getting a slice of the pie so to speak, whether or not an employee they're contracted to a larger business. Would you call Uber Eats and Lyft and Uber a franchise in a sense, or what would you say differentiates their model to a franchise model? Lance: They're not a franchise at all. A franchise system one of the biggest keys so let's talk about its use McDonald's as an example. If you're going to become a McDonald's franchisee, McDonald's corporate, which is the franchizor, ZOR. The ZOR versus the ZEE, the franchizor has to exercise quite a bit of control over their franchisees to have a successful franchise model. And the documents you know, franchising is regulated in the US regulated by the Federal Government, the Federal Trade Commission, and there are specific documents you have to create in order to be a franchise in the US. And for that matter anywhere in the world, there are different laws depending on the country you're in, they might vary. But the bottom line is this, you have to exercise a reasonable amount of control. So if you are a franchisee of McDonald's, you can't decide to purchase things from different vendors. You can't choose to have your employees wearing a different uniform, you certainly can't choose to buy certain, you know, menu boards or lighting or tables and chairs, you have to use only approved vendors. Now, if you can consider franchising the most rigorous control type environment, you know, you have licensing, which can be kind of loosey goosey, where, you know, you can license a certain product or recipe or name, but they can't control whether or not you serve hot dogs, for example, or change the uniforms. And some of the companies you're talking about, you know, Uber Eats or what have you or Uber. I mean, they are major corporations that, you know, choose to run markets in a different fashion than a franchise would entirely. They're not following the same rule book or operations manual necessarily, the control is on a corporate level, but it's completely different from a legal setup. Josh: Okay. If you've got an awesome idea that's scalable, and you're not looking to buy into, obviously a franchise, you're looking to franchise at your business. How do you go about picking your market? So just recently, we've got Taco Bell, and Carl's Jr. to Australia. And people are loving it. And it's going great. If you've got a product, how do you go about picking your market share? Where do you go about finding where you should be running a franchise? Because I'd imagine it's not always going to be best just to run from home base. Lance: No, you know, the first step is always where have you founded the company? All great franchises, at least start a franchise brand, starts with one location. A lot of people have seen the movie The founder with Ray, you know, Ray Kroc, and the story of McDonald's, it's pretty true. As far as I can tell, I've read all the various books on it as well. But it all starts with one location. In their case they started in Southern California. Where did the first franchise take place? Well, Southern California, that's where they were. And they started expanding throughout California. So it's all about proximity and franchising to start, although with technology, you can be worldwide in no time, it purely depends on the brand and how much support is required. So I would say if you have a business in Australia, and as I mentioned in the pre show, you know, I have actually talked to Australian brands quite recently that want to come to the United States. If you have a brand that's already successful, even if it's a single unit, by all means you could be ready to start a franchise. And that starts with a free call with myself to explore those options. We get on a Zoom call like this, and have that conversation. So anybody, it doesn't, you know, some people say, Oh, you need five locations, ten locations. Look, if you have a brand that's successful period, doesn't matter how big you are, let's have a conversation. If you're looking to grow, that's an option, because to grow on your own, the way Uber has chosen to do, they raise money in the public markets, they went public, they raised funds. And it's not a question of better or worse, it's a question of the desire of the owners. I can tell you in the United States, there's a lot to be said about private equity. Private equity is a huge topic. Private Equity groups control the money in the United States these days. And then the private equity groups love to gobble up franchise brands, because they're successful. That's why I do what I do. And by the way, Joshua, keep in mind, there are so many franchises because so many people do think of restaurants as being the preeminent franchises. And while I represent almost 190 restaurant franchises, I represent about 400 non restaurant franchises in every category. Josh: If you are looking to dip your toes into business, as you said, this is an easy entry point jumping into a franchise is you've got a rulebook there, you've got sales guidelines, you've got call to actions ready to go, you've got logos, you've got websites, you've got all this information that I know after being in business for 13 years, takes a long time to get sorted and get set right. If you wanted to dip your toe in and go okay, let's see if buying a franchise is right for me and you're interested in taking a little bit of money out of the mortgage or saving up a bit of coin, what’s the palatable entry price that you could expect to dip your toe in again. Okay, this is for me. Now let's go the full hog and dive right in. Lance: In US dollars, about $150,000 or less. I have quite a few franchises around the 100,000-dollar mark, home based brands that are phenomenal. And in some cases, it might be $100,000. Get a little bit of little office somewhere, a lot of great brands. So that's the answer. $100,00 and $150,000. And I have quite a few brands that are branching out. I mean, look, most US brands go to Canada first and then they look to eventually get to Europe, Asia, and eventually they'll get to Australia of course, like McDonald's for example. Taco Bell, as you mentioned, just got there, because they're pretty much full of the US at this point. Josh: In the land down under it takes us a while to catch up, I think. Lance: Running for the border. Josh: If you're buying into a franchise, let's say buying into a taco bell or a home based business, you say you should have a backing of about 150,000 or be able to gain a position the bank is going to give you that that kind of money. Is that fair? Lance: Yeah. I mean, look, there are opportunities throughout the United States, the Small Business Administration, which is of course, backed by the government, it's essentially a government backed loan will lend to everybody on franchises. I mean, if they're a good franchise, they'll lend typically 75%, 80% of the money that you need with a minimal credit score, it's not even a fantastic credit score. It's in the US, it's just a 680 credit score. So Australia is going to have similar programs to simulate business and the Australian economy. You know, the challenge just becomes, you know, what are those brands that if somebody wanted to bring it to Australia, what are they? Because Taco Bell is not an inexpensive franchise, Taco Bell is not sizable investment, so is Carl's Jr, as you mentioned. Again, as I mentioned earlier, because of technology today, it's quite a few, very inexpensive high performing franchise brands that are easily duplicatable or replicable in Australia. And those brands, if they're not in Australia, now they're coming. Josh: That's a pretty easy entry point really. Like if you had to look at the return on investment of buying a house with a 20% loan or 80% Elvia, and then you had to look at buying a franchise where you're getting the same amount of money sort of borrowed from the bank or whatnot. And it's sitting at 30 grand or something like that US obviously, as we're saying, but 30 grand, what would you say you see, and obviously, this is such a difficult question to ask, but what are the returns? So a house, you might get 5%, 7% every year if you’re doing well, 2% in worst areas, 0.5 in the middle of the cities. Lance: This is one of my favorite questions, because I've actually gotten in arguments with accountants and attorneys over this, because sometimes they miss this. When you buy a franchise, you know, just like you're describing a house. So you make a big investment like a house. Obviously in the US, you certainly have write offs, mortgage interest, you get to deduct, there are various things that advantages to owning a house in the first place. And then you also have the equity that you build over time in owning a house. Well, a business is no different. First of all, you have a tremendous amount of write offs when you own a business, and a lot of people forget that. Secondly, you do have the obvious equity that you have, when you own a business. When you sell a business in the US, especially a franchise, there's a secondary market for franchises, there are brokers set up all throughout the US, if franchisees want to sell, you know, you could sell for four times your cash flow. This is substantial upside. So if you got into a franchise that only cost you $100,000, and you create a substantial cash flow, which you can, I'll give you a perfect example, I have a franchise that cost $62,000 US home based. There's a gentleman that just sold his franchise that he purchased it for $62,000, seven and a half years later, he just sold it for $1.7 million US, he also made a nice income, about $500,000 to $800,000 a year while he operated. Josh: So that's a perfect segue into what I was just about to ask. How do you make sure or how do you make sure you're buying a job or some franchise, you're buying a job, some of you buying an investment, some of you buying a spot to work with a known brand where you're doing something you love, so you might be a plumber, and you go, I'm going to operate underneath this brand, because I know that this is a going to bring leads to the door, I'm not going to have to do any of the other business stuffing around or the footer, I'm just going to be able to do the voodoo that I do. In the franchise world, is there an easy way to differentiate between buying that investment, which is probably going to have a lower return, but you're forking out the money but you're doing nothing. You’re just sitting there set and forget the like, like stocks and shares or something like that. Versus buying a job, which is still a fine enough thing to do, because you're buying that brand recognition, you're getting your foot in the door very easily to get to do exactly what you want to do with a known brand with leads coming through. Is there a way to differentiate between those if you're going through some franchise broker or someone was to contact you? And I said, Look, I want to buy an investment. I don't want to buy a job. How do I work that up. Lance: That's why people use me, I'm free. My advice is free. I get paid by the brands. So there's a lot to unpack in what you said. So let's take it in two parts. There's a validation stage. So once I introduce you to various brands, and Joshua says, Lance, I'm interested in this brand and this brand, set me up with a phone call. I introduce you, you have your first call, your second call and you go to especially these days, it might be a virtual type discovery day where you meet the team, tour their corporate office, even virtually if that’s the case usually has been done face to face, they've changed things up a little bit these days for expediency. But there's a validation process, as you get to the end. Where if they really love you, and you love them and you want to do a deal, they say, well wait a second, Joshua, we would like you, here's a list of all of our franchisees, I would like you to call at least five of them at random, whoever you want to call. And I want you to ask him any question you want to ask him. Things like, you know, would you do it again? Are you happy? Do you make money? Do you have the appropriate support, marketing, etc., etc. And you could either see yourself in those people or you don't, and decide to move forward. So in the due diligence process, I asked you or my candidates questions like, again, what kind of lifestyle are you interested in having? Are you going to be the owner operator? Because let me tell you, if you want to be a semi absentee owner, and absentee owner, I have brands like that. I have brands where you can be a complete absentee owner, and not do anything, it's a strategic move by the franchizor. They have technology and systems in place where you can do that successfully. Now, there are quite a few of prospective franchisees in the US as an expression called the pipe dream that doesn't necessarily exist. And they think they're going to get wealthy from owning one little restaurant. That's not how it goes. Sometimes you have the individual franchisees that jump into one restaurant, and they might be successful, but it's a grind, and it's a JOB. It's not the dream that they wanted. So what I tell people is, if you only have money to get into one restaurant, you really want to do the restaurant business, go right ahead. But keep in mind, you got to get ready to get a second one, and a third one. Wealth is easily built in the restaurant business when you have multiples. You start to get five restaurants, you can net $80,000 a location, $400,000 US from five restaurants, that's substantial income. I's hard to do that when you're working for someone else. And now you get to write your own schedule. In my case, I work seven days a week in my restaurants, because it was working for myself. You know, what’s the old expression, you rather work 80 hours a week for yourself than 40 hours a week for someone else. Josh: Yep, it becomes something you're interested in doing, especially if you're buying into something that you believe in and you're passionate about. So I understand you've got an assessment tool at ionfranchising.com that people can jump on to. Tell us a bit more about that tool. Lance: Yeah. So, at my website, ionfranchising.com, there is a free assessment. If you scroll down a little bit, and it's quite scientific, it'll take you 10, 15 minutes to do. And it'll determine not only your current mindset based on your past skills, and your risk tolerance, comfort zone, and it kind of whips it all together and determines compatibility with what brands you're most compatible with is the best way to say it. Then it'll give you a detailed report. It'll give me a detailed report, and I'll be able to guide you better. I'm still going to ask about 30, 40 other questions to roll it all together, because that's the way I'm going to help you best. So it's a great tool. It's free. It's right on my website. Now one of the big pieces I tell people a lot, Joshua, is my goal is to get people really clear, to give them the clarity to understand what their goals are. As much as I'm a franchise consultant, I'm really a franchise strategist. I help people develop their life plan and how they can most effectively be an entrepreneur. And my favorite expression as a result of that is clarity is currency. So clarity is currency is my general theme. Getting people clear so I can get to you know finding them brand that is absolutely perfect for them. Josh: It sounds like there's nothing to lose only things to gain. More clarity for them, more clarity for everyone and definitely give me more clarity on how franchises work and the direction that things can go. And if anyone out there is keen we're going to be jumping in and organising to have another podcast on how to set yourself up and price your first franchise. Otherwise, did you have any other questions, Lance, or things that you'd like to go through before we head off? Lance: No, Tony Robbins once said model success and that is what franchising is. So that's my final word of the day and you have been amazing and I look forward to round two. Josh: I've loved doing it Lance. And if anyone out there has any feedback and comments, jump across the iTunes, give us some love. Leave us some feedback and stay good.

This is part 1 of 2 "Best Of" episodes! Some amazing highlights (and a lot of wisdom). In this episode, you'll hear from:Tuma Basa @tumabasa on Instagram/Twitter                   Lacy Dicharry www.lacydicharry.com and @lacydicharry on Instagram           Josh One @boomnote on Instagram and Twitter and Josh One on SpotifyJason Bockman @serneybanders and @strangedonuts on Instagram www.strangedonuts.com and www.btfurnishingsstl.com       Katie Miller www.katiemillerfitness.com and @ktmillerkerner on Instagram           Diandra Lyle @simply_diandra on InstagramFollow us @bestworstthingpodcast on Instagram/Facebook and @walehwa on Twitter                

Planning For Growth With Blair Ann Verrier Josh: G’day everyone out there in podcast land. We've got Blair here from Enrich Bookkeeping Solutions and she's going to be talking today about change, planning for growth and how to become a business warrior. So Blair, tell me what is the first step that people need to be doing when it comes to planning for growth? Blair: My advice on planning for growth is anything to do with budgeting, and making sure you understand the cash flow of your business. So what's flowing in and what's flowing out, and the timings around the flow of the ins and outs. Josh: Okay. So would that be say for instance, hypothetically if I'm running an IT company, instead of having supplies that we're working on a cash basis, we move to an account basis, we could then times the bills so that we're not always I guess in arrears, so to speak with buying a product that comes out of our account that then gets shipped off to the client. And there might be like a net 30 terms or something like that with the client that then waits 30 days to pay, and then we're sort of sitting without that money. Is that kind of to sort of help out with those sort of situations? Blair: Yeah. So the sooner you can collect money from your clients, and the longer you can pay your suppliers, it’s going to help the cash flow of your business. Josh: When is the right time to do that? Like, I know that when you first start out in business, you don't necessarily have any proof of dealing with businesses. And when you have different suppliers and things like that, they might say, give me some trade references, for instance, how do you sort of jump in there? What's the step? Are you just having a cash account and then showing them that you do have some throughput before moving across? So how do you manage that? Blair: Yeah, look, the earlier you can implement that in your business the better your cash flow is going to be earlier. Some businesses will offer accounts straight up. But it may be for a smaller amount than you need in your business. So, you know, you may have part of it cash part of it on credit until you've gained that credibility and trust with that supplier. And if you've got suppliers that maybe won't do it, shop around and see who will, and have the conversation with the supplier about, you know, how long will it be until we can look at a trade account? So is it three months, six months, 12 months? What, you know, is their general rule in their business that they're looking for? That way you know you're working towards. Josh: And that's always just as simple once you know that just chucking me a calendar and having another review in three or six months, whatever they say, I guess. Blair: Yeah, yeah. Josh: One of the things we noticed when we put in accounts, I was in my teenage years and I didn't have a credit card or any sort of cash reference. And I guess to them they would have been red flags. So it was difficult to get the first account for me. But what I did find out in shopping around exactly as you said, I found one supplier that was happy to have a cash account. And they also had very, very good guarantees at the speed that they will get things out. They said we'll give you a cash count after three months or six months, can’t remember what it is now, we did work with them and what they would do is drop ship the items so that's when they have the item is in their warehouse and they'll send it straight to your customers if it's come straight from you, which means it doesn't have to bypass through you to speed things up. We found that was great because it meant that they weren't waiting for the money to go from our bank account to their bank account, and back in the day, it's a bit quicker now for a lot of the big four banks now but back in the day it was overnight, then and then they would see it, they’ll reconciled it and they'd send it out and that's normally by the time they've done that it was two or three days before the customer saw it. The moment we got the account in place. We noticed that if we place the order eight o'clock, it was at the clients at 11 o'clock. So it improves the customer satisfactions. This supplier in particular wasn't the cheapest supplier around. But the ability to get the products out quicker was more important to us than saving $5 or $10, here and there. So we found that having that relationship and having the account was great just to increase the customer satisfaction, even if it means you're spending more. Is there any other ways that you would look to I guess, when planning for growth, you said cash flow is very important. Is there any other things that you think would be those Cornerstone, milestone type items that people should definitely be having on their to do list to look at? Blair: The budget is important because the budget, I guess sets the path for where you want to go. So you're going to plan in your budget for that growth. So then it's going to show you when do I need to start looking at hiring new employees, or do I need office space or bigger office space. So you're going to see that you know, your budgeting, you can budget you know, up to five years in advance. So if you're doing that you're going to see in advance what you need to do in your business. And you can plan for that prior to then all of a sudden, oh, I need two new employees yesterday. Josh: On the employees, that's something that I've learned the hard way. And I think a lot of people out there, a lot of business owners, for lack of a better term, start off as cowboys, cowgirls and try to work out what am I doing? How am I doing this? How do I step in that direction? And before the episode started, actually, we're talking a little bit about people that kind of think they know it old but have a lot of advice to give but no experience of where that came from. When looking at these I guess different monster moments looking back retrospectively, which is great. I have a look, and I go okay, before I got employees on I should have been planning for documentation and planning for our systems and infrastructure to make sure that the IT support that we'll be able to supply to our customers was top notch before already working at 120% capacity and then bringing on some of that, take that 20% while still having to then train them up, which was very stressful. Definitely put some pressure on the family. Blair: Yeah, that's right. And even, you know, when you are just that sole operator, getting the time to do that stuff as well, like you get so bogged down in working in the business, that often working on the business gets forgotten about. But I think, you know, if you are planning to grow your business, you need to allocate time each week to be working on the business. Josh: I completely agree. We get stuck in the trenches. And it's just what happens. Again, like as I said, most business owners, they start off as cowboys and cowgirls and it just comes through. A lot of people just have this brain fart and go, I'm going to be a business owner because I can do this better than where I'm at. Or I want to have more flexibility. Or whatever the case is, and very rarely do they think that they're going to be working more than they're working. Secret. Everyone works more than 40 hours a week if you're a business owner. But it's something you enjoy doing, which is good. Unless you've stopped enjoying doing it, then stop doing what you're doing. But the big difference I think between learning to work on the business to grow your business and working in the business is the differentiator between the business owners that own a job, and the people that own an investment. I'm definitely not slacking on Avon and some of the other bits and pieces out there when people say I own my own business. I sell Avon or Tupperware and things like that. That's fine. I wouldn't really say that that's it's earning a job more in my eyes and I think you're going to be retiring and selling off your share of your ownership of Tupperware or Isagenix or whatnot, and that's where working on the business is growing your business. That's where the investment is. It's money now versus money later. Blair: Yeah. It's about also like don't feel guilty about spending that time on the business when you know, you're not working on clients or income producing for right now, because the time you spend on the business now, like you said, produces income in the future. Josh: Yeah. And I think one of the other big things that I found when we were in our growth stage, I don't think we ever really get out of that. So it's just a cycle. And a mindset change is the mindset and the people aspects of that. So we had the first contractor, and I thought that he's great, he's fantastic. And then he started getting rather sick and had a lot of health problems. I thought, oh no, what I'm going to do. I can't run the business without him. And then I got someone else in and then he moved down to Coffs Harbour. And then oh no, what I'm going to do when they're working for you. You need to make sure that they are working and doing the best things for the business and you are pulling everything in the right direction. You want to have reliance safe, but you don't want to have them have the knowledge that you are completely reliant on them because then they've got more cards than you have. And then you kind of stuffed, you sort of push yourself into a corner. What’s been your experience with businesses that you've worked with when it comes to sole operators when they go from being a solo operator to the first full time employee, it pretty much doubles their workforce. It's pretty significant as opposed to someone who has 100 employees that gets another 10 employees, it’s only 10% more workforce. It's not anywhere near as drastic. Have you found people manage that sort of growth and having to have that management aspects of their business? Blair: Yeah, I think a lot of business owners aren't prepared for that first employee. I think sometimes it happens quicker than they expect it to happen. Like their business may experience growth quicker or all of a sudden, they just wake up and they go, you know, I can't work keep working 80 hours a week and not having a day off. And so they look at hiring and that you know, they're just talking out off on sea. And then they're bogged down with hundreds of resumes and trying to decipher through who is the best fit for their business and they don't really have a good HR or hiring plan, you know, and I think sometimes without that plan, and if they do get a good employee, they just get lucky, probably more often than not, they, you know, get someone who's not necessarily the right fit and they're starting again, or that person like you’ve experienced and then, you know, again, you're starting again looking for someone else. Josh: I don't think it's any secret for anyone listening to the podcast for a while that I love automation, I hate repetition. And the thought of hiring someone, and although I sound extroverts is a learned skill. Anyone can learn to do this. I definitely love my alone time. But the thought of hiring someone scared the hell out of me. I'm sort of putting food on their table and their family's table and it's became too much thinking about it alone. Oh, this is scary. So the first full time employee I had the HR guy come in and go through. And as I was asking the questions he was looking at the, I guess, the psychological responses and body language that the person was showing when these questions were being answered. And that's something that I went who, at that stage I hadn't even really thought too much about having to look at someone listen to their answers. Look at their body responses. Did they look away? Did they look to the right or do they look to the left? Did they close their hands or did they open their hands if you reword the question three different ways was it answered three different ways or the same way? And so I was thinking far out man, there is a science behind this. And I was so happy that I did, because the person I bought on, Alex was great as the first full time employee, as I said just family stuff and he had to move down to Coffs Harbour, but it was something that I was so happy I did that. That was a stress that was removed. That comes down to I guess what we touched on a little bit earlier about cowboys and people giving advice when it’s not warranted advice. You're talking a bit about a bit earlier about GST and the right time to sign up for GST. You want to let our audience here a bit about that? Blair: Yes, as I mentioned earlier, I saw on Facebook on one of the business pages, I'm a member of. Someone who had asked about when is the right time to register for GST? They're in business. They're have not met the threshold requirements yet, but wanted to know should they register anyway. There was a lot of people commenting, you know, giving their unqualified advice, and one person commented and that they had registered prior to needing to. And if you use an online bookkeeper such as QuickBooks, it's really easy, which I found was quite an interesting comment to make. Because QuickBooks is not a bookkeeper, it's software. Josh: It’s like comparing a screwdriver to a builder. You don't need a builder to build your house, go and buy a screwdriver. It'll work. It's the same thing. They’re just going to use a screwdriver anyway. The fact that you bought a screwdriver and a hammer and you think you’re going do something with that when you didn't buy nails or screws. It's kind of just like, what are you doing? It's, I thought, yeah, we see some of these situations and it just blows my mind. Have you heard of the Dunning Kruger effect? Blair: No. Josh: So the Dunning Kruger effect. And this is a big, big problem on the internet, it's a cognitive bias, where people think that they are smarter, more capable than they really are. So it pretty much means that people with a lower ability, don't have the skills needed to recognise that they're incompetent. And so they think they know everything, and they'll go and express that to everyone but the more they learn on the topic, the deeper they find the topic is, the less confidence they have, even though they're now more experienced. Does that make sense? The smarter you are at a certain topic, the less confident you are until you've been doing this for years and years and years. And I think that the biggest problem I have on these like Facebook groups and LinkedIn groups and other online forums is people give this advice and they go I've been a business owner for six months. Use Zero, use MYOB, it's easy. You don't need a bookkeeper. Just don't worry about it. Don't worry about depreciation schedules or anything else or how that even works. It's not even something in it. Just make sure the lines line up. The chart of accountants, not something important to you at the moment. It's just go and buy the screwdriver and build the house. Blair: Yeah, yeah, I did find it to be an interesting comment and show that obviously a lot of people don't really understand the value of a bookkeeper and the value to their business. Because it's not just about inputting information into an accounting software. Josh: No, the first person that I had that came into my business after myself. So in 2007, before I started the business, I got all of the different books that I could get from the government on GST and tax and everything that I could possibly learn about how things would work. The Queensland Government, well, just generally, the Australian Government has a lot of resources available. Now, it's probably all online, but back in the day, not so much. And these resources I read cover to cover and all these terrible examples of Sam and Sally going through and buying a certain amount of apples and whatnot. But the end position was I knew more about it, which is good for business owners to know about it. But it still scared the hell out of me. And so the first person I bought in was a bookkeeper to help me out and that was in 2011, I think, 2010, and two years after I set up the trust, and I hadn't done any returns. I was freaking out, I'm like, they're going to send the police here, I'm stuffed. I don't know if I've been doing anything right or wrong, or backwards or upside down, and I thought I’m just going to be completely stuffed and I was freaking out. Anyway, I got the bookkeeper, and she's like, no, it’s so good. We'll get through it. And it was like to fix up the previous two years maybe wasn't much, like $1,000 maybe 1500 dollars. And this is again, rewinding around a decade so adjust for inflation, but oh my goodness, I could sleep better at night. Now, I could have sat there reconciling lines, but it wouldn't have helped me out in the situation that I was in. And the second blunder that I've had is know that your bookkeepers doing what they're meant to be doing. And they have the qualifications and they're associated with the appropriate governing body. So say you're Zero certified and you’re CPA in bits and pieces, because the bookkeeper that I had after the first bookkeeper, the second bookkeeper wasn't looking at the invoices. One of the main suppliers that we had moved over to And we'll then claiming GST on something that we weren't meant to be for a number of years, racked up like a $30,000 GST debt that we weren't anticipating on. Yeah, so definitely don't go do it yourself far out. Blair: Yeah, I know. Like I've got clients who do sort of the bookkeeping side of it themselves. And then every quarter, I check their accounts and lodge their BAS. And I don't believe there is one of those clients, that's when I do the checks. I don't have to fix something that's wrong. Mostly incorrectly classified GST. So you know, claiming GST on things they shouldn't be or vice versa. One of the biggest ones that affect most people is Telstra. So, Telstra does not charge 100% GST on their invoices. I haven't been able to work that out yet. But they don't show that. Josh: Interesting. Wait, what parts are they not charging GST on? Blair: So if you have a look at your Telstra bill, your GST will not be 10% of the total or one-eleven. Yeah, it's usually a little bit less and most business owners just claim, put it in, you know, 500 bucks to my Telstra bill this month, find the GST, $45, and it's not. It might be $30 that they should have claimed. Josh: Far out. That's that's a big one because that's like, not a small company. People know of it. Blair: Yeah, so that's probably the most common one. The other ones would be insurance. People not claiming the right amount on insurance because obviously there's a stamp duty component to insurance that there's no GST on. And yeah, people don't realise that. So Yeah, it's not just about putting the information into the system, it's about ensuring that it's correct, but also making sure that it's been allocated to the right part of the chart of accounts. And that all your accounts actually reconcile, that's going to make your tax accountants job a lot easier at the end of financial year, is if everything's in the right place and reconciling. And like you said, making sure your bookkeeper’s qualified. Like, as a minimum, you want your bookkeeper to be a registered BAS agent? Anyone who's not a registered BAS agent, legally, cannot do anything to do with GST, FBT or single touch payroll. Alright, so chances are they will ask you for your paper BAS form that you've received from ATO so they can fill that out for you. That's a huge red flag. They lodging STP under your company's name rather than under an agent's registration. A lot of things business owners wouldn't realise. And it's something that I tell people a lot is anyone can wake up tomorrow and decide to be a bookkeeper. There is nothing governing them from not doing that. So Mrs. Jones, who's done the books of her husband's building business for the last 40 years. And now all the kids have left home and she's a little bit bored, can wake up and start advertising bookkeeping services. And business owners don't realise how easy it is for someone to do that. Josh: That's terrible. Well, it's great for Mrs. Jones but it’s terrible for every other business that she's working with. Blair: That's right. And often, you know, like, I hear people say, oh, but I can get someone to do it for $10 or $20 less than you down the road. And I'm like, okay, see you in 12 months, when they've messed it up and it’s not right. Josh: Yep. money spent on the right thing saves a lot of money in the future, being cheap is very expensive. Blair: Yeah, and a good bookkeeper will save you money at the end of year with your tax accountant. Like people think they're saving money by not using a bookkeeper. But then it gets to their tax accountant at the end of the year and it's wrong. And the accountant needs to fix it. Most tax accountants are charging anywhere from $150 an hour up. Whereas you're paying a bookkeeper half that. Josh: Circling back to what we're talking about planning for growth, you can't plan for growth if you're doing your own books. It's a task that you're able to outsource to a professional that can hold that screwdriver and build that house for you, build the infrastructure out and make sure it's working. And as you said, if they're checking on the pulse and doing some reconciliation, that's fine, but it doesn't make them a doctor. They're not going to hear a flutter in your heart that you guys will pick up on. So I think anyone's foolish for not engaging in the services of qualified people to look after the items of their business that they're not qualified to be doing it. Tell me a bit a bit about your book. You've got a book called Business Warriors? Blair: Yes, last year, the book was launched first of June last year. So I was a co contributor of 11 authors in that book, so I've written one chapter of that book about my journey in corporate world as a female and, you know, some of the stuff I've seen and experienced. I believe the accounting industry is a bit of a men's club, and considering like I did a little bit of research, when I was writing my chapter around the evolvement of the accounting industry, and found that, you know, way back when that industry started, they didn't actually let women be accountants. Josh: I could see that. Yeah, definitely. Blair: Yeah. And it wasn't until the wars came and they needed to send them into war. They were like, well, what are we going to do? We've got no men to do the work. So they then started letting women do the work. But they weren't allowed to call themselves accountants, even though they were doing the same work that men were doing. Josh: Really? What were they called? Blair: I think, like, just clerks. Like, yes, something along those lines. I kind of feel that's where that men's club started. And the culture of that just sort of continued. Probably, obviously, nowhere near as bad because we now let women work as accountants and 49% of the CPA membership are women. So there are a lot of female accountants in the industry now. And we're allowed to call ourselves accountants or we're allowed to be CPAs and CAs, and, you know, part of these governing bodies that originally we were never allowed to be a part of. We were not recognised in the industry. Josh: The IT industry, similar, very, very male dominated. Now, the majority of the managing positions in IT, 55% women, so it's really good. It's good to see sort of this change. My sister is an engineer. And when she was working for different businesses, she was the female engineer of a team of 100 engineers and things like that. It was good as she saw new blood coming in and empowering that there is sort of a bit of a change here. I still can't believe like some of the shady paths that we've come from. But if anyone out there is looking to have a fantastic bookkeeper, definitely jump across to Enrich Bookkeeping Solutions and give Blair a holler. And I'm sure she'll get to talk to you about all sorts of things from how to grow your business and better your business with your numbers and make sure that if you bought into some advice that you've seen on Facebook, you can do your numbers yourself, it'd be probably a good idea for her to at least give you an audit and then see where you're at. So, if anyone out there does have any advice or would like to leave a review, jump across to iTunes, give us some love and stay healthy and stay good out there in these interesting times.

Josh One is an internationally recognized producer and DJ. Based in Long Beach, CA born in the Midwest, his path to music wasn't a direct one. In this episode, Josh and I recount some honest and gritty conversations about growing up in southern California, how a personal setback unpredictably defined his career, and what he believes is needed to continue moving forward in a competitive field. You can find Josh One @boomnote on Instagram and Twitter and as Josh One on Spotify to listen to his incredible music.

Vanguard Sessions by Vanillaz (EPISODE 006) tracklist: https://1001.tl/1hqv3cn9 001. ID - The One 002. Dua Lipa - Dont Start Now (Kungs Remix) 003. Breach - Jack (Odd Mob Remix) 004. Diplo - On My Mind 005. Nightcrawlers - Push The Feeling On (Edu Marks Remix) 006. Kraft - So Sweet 007. Monolink - Sirens (Meca, Zuffo Remix) 008. Sonny Fodera - The Moment (Dubdogz, Zuffo Remix) 009. Junior Jack - E Samba (Matt Sassari Remix) 010. Empire Of The Sun - We Are The People (Ownboss, Mitch Remix) 011. Josh One & King Britt - Contemplation (Philip Z Bootleg) 012. Josh Samuel - Pump Edit 013. Moonwalk - Elessar 014. Temper Trap - Sweet Disposition (Camille Lucianim Remix) *Vanguard Sessions by Vanillaz (Weekly Radio Show) Online every Monday!

Finance Alternatives with Paul Boyd-Skinner Josh: Everyone out there in podcast land, we've got a great guest for you today. We've got Paul here from NoBNK, and he is a bit of a wizard when it comes to looking at a different way that you can do finance. This is especially critical in today's financial climate. So Paul, tell me a bit about what it is that you do with NoBNK. Learn more about finance alternatives at dorksdelivered.com.au Paul: So NoBNK is predominantly a non-bank business and commercial finance solutionist. I've been involved in nonbank lending for around about 16 years. So I've done all sorts of finance. I've done everything from home loans to commercial development, construction equipment, finance, factoring, all that sort of thing. And I'm proud to say that I've never ever put anybody in a loan with the bank.  Josh: High five! Paul: Look, you know, my adversity towards banks. Back in the 80s, back in the day when I got my first home, which was in late 1988, 89. You know we will be excited about getting our first home and interest rates at that time were around about 12% when we went and got our loan. The way it sort of worked back then was you go to the bank. And you're begged for a loan and they'd say, ‘Yes, yes, we'll give you a loan.’ And it was usually, you know, like about 70% or something that they give you, but they will do on a bit of a special, at the time for first home buyers where they give you 100% at interest only. We were living in a caravan when we first got married, so that was a pretty good option to get our own homes.  Josh: Absolutely! And upgrading it’s pretty low friction option, I guess. Paul: The only thing was the in-laws had to go as guarantors. So I now know that today is like a parental guarantor. Really wasn't heard of back then. So it was a little bit of a product for first home buyers. So we did that. We jumped in and we got the house and everything was going along nicely. And then we had to have the recession that we had to have. And our interest rates went from 12% to a 7%, 8.5% in the space of about six months. And just to give you an idea, the loan was $105,000. My repayment was $1,560 a month. Yep. And I was on $33,000 a year. So when you take tax out, 80% of my income was going towards paying my mortgage.  Josh: Yeah. Far out.  Paul: And it wasn't knocking 1 cent off it. Josh: Yeah. Just sitting there as interest only. And that is a scary spot to be in, because you're not sure if it's going to go up or down or left or right, or what it's going to do. Somersaults.  Paul: That happened with a lot of first home buyers over the years. Eventually, you know, it just got too heavy. I had to do up to 30 hours a week overtime to make ends meet, I was a fitter-machiner at the time,and you know, we ended up losing it. It's just the way it was. There were a lot of people losing their properties.  Josh: You weren't the anomaly. I don't think so. Paul: I sort of didn't understand what happened to me. I didn't like the banks at all when I worked it out. I've done a lot of study on the banks since then, or the banking system, and, you know, my thoughts on the global financial system is, I believe it's a world's biggest Ponzi scam. I've been open and honest about this for quite a long time, about how I feel about the banking system and I'm a bit like the disruptor.. I'm all about wanting to make the change so that it's a benefit for us, not so much just for them.  Josh: Yeah, well, I guess like I've done a bit of research into things such as the fractional reserve system and how that works. Paul: Does it work?  Josh: Well, how it works doesn't mean it works. No, you're exactly right. It's not a very good system, which is based on, now, nothing really. It's just based on numbers in a computer. It's not weighted against any real thing of intrinsic value. Paul: Well, have a think about that. So what a lot of people don't understand is that when you deposit money into a bank, you're actually lending them that money. It's a loan. You become an unsecured creditor, yet there is no security for that loan to that bank.  Josh: Yep.  Paul: It's a promise that they give you. We'll promise that we'll give you your money back.  Josh: After changing you bank fees or having it in there. Paul: Well, what a great deal for them, isn't it? They say, ‘Joshua, can you lend me your $100,000?’ Josh: Yeah, no problem at all.  Paul: Now would you want to say, ‘Oh, I need a contract with that?’  Josh: Well, normally you would. Yeah. You hope so. Paul: No. So what's going to happen, Joshua, on the bank is you're going to lend me $100,000. You're the bank, though. Not as a contract, but I do promise that I'll give you your money back and I'll dictate the terms. Right? So you might want 10% interest, but I'm happy to give you 1 ½. And you'll say, ‘Yep, I'm happy to do that.’  That's really what you've done when you put money in the bank, and just remember that one critical part. You're an unsecured creditor. Meaning that secure creditors, in the event of the bank collapse or whatever, secured credit is paid first and then unsecured credits. Josh: Yup. So in the situation where shit hits the fan hypothetically, we can all feel the recession, we can all hear it being spoken about, we can also feel some pressures around the place. If shit hits the fan and everyone starts frantically pulling money out of the bank, they've already planned for that, and that's what's been going through at the moment. Am I right?  Paul: Yeah, correct.  Josh: Tell me a bit about that for our listeners. Paul: Well, long story short is that there's three generations of savers, so you've got you've got your builders, you've got your boomers, and then you've got generation X, which is me. We've all been bought up as a generation of ‘get yourself a good job, save for retirement.’ It was all about saving money. Okay. The other thing too is that we had our children quite young, so you know, I've been married 31 years and I've got married to my wife she was 19, and I was 23. And, we had our children when she was 21. So we had our kids young, and if you think about my father, he was one of 17 children, so they had big families. So they were called boomers, you know. Josh: Huge families, but small houses.  Paul: Can you imagine having 17 children? And the house, there were three bedrooms, one bathroom, right?  Josh: One bathroom, 17 people. 17 children! 19 people. Paul: It's 28 years from youngest to oldest. You know what I mean? Like it's just a constant flow of, you know, at least seven, eight, nine people in a 3-bedroom house.  Josh: Should have bought a TV, so that there's something else to do.  Paul: Didn’t have TV back in the day, so what they did was they went out into the world and started the businesses and all that sort of thing and created quite a lot of wealth. And they stored that wealth in the bank because that's what they were told to do, you know? And they'll get great returns. So when I had those interest rates of 18% of my home, you would get 16% return on money that you had sitting in the bank and you know that's a fantastic return. But look what's happened over the years. You know, that was 30 years ago. Now we're down to zero negative rates in other countries. Japan has been at negative rates for 20 years.  Josh: How much money have they reprinted over there? Paul: Does anyone know why? Does anyone really know why? Or is it just like it's a bad economy and all this sort of stuff? So what makes the bad economy? When people stopped spending! If you're not buying things at the shop, then retail starts to drop off. I want to spend the money. So they're trying to force you to get your money out to spend. Banks don't make money out of people saving and make money out of people borrowing. So they don't want you having money sitting in the bank anymore. Their fractional reserve system, that doesn't matter anymore because they're reprinting money off loans. They make more money out of loans than they do early use saving. So the idea is to try to get that money out of the system and into risky investments or to just get you out there spending.  But when you have the majority of the world's population over 45 years old, that's when our spending curve drops right off. We're not out there buying. We're not down to supermarkets every week, three times a week, or whatever at the big shops. I'd be lucky to go to near Robina. I'd be lucky to go there once a month.  Josh: Yup. For those listeners that didn't hear you. You were saying the GFC is a light rain comparative to what could be happening. And I always say if it's been 30 years since a major recession and it doesn't hit right now, all that means is we're going to be getting a slightly bigger downfall before we're getting absolutely torrential rain in 7 or 11 years time from now. Would that be fair to say?  Paul: It could be any time. When you think about in Australia, we've had 28, 29 years without a recession. What has stopped that recession from happening? So back in the 90s when it happened, like 1990, 91, we had the recession we had to have, but they didn't do anything to try to stop it. You know, and as I said, the interest rates are at 18% so what they've done to stave it off every year, you know, because the next government that comes in needs to be leaving it in a good place. They don't want to be the government that caused the recession. Right.  Josh: The inevitable recession. Paul: The inevitable recession. And when you look at what the US in particular, they've had about seven or eight in that amount of time. Australia have had none. So every time that you look at the interest rate table and you look at different things that's happened, like the 9/11, the GFC, they've dropped rates 3% to 6% in order to stave off that recession. Probably the other recession that we had to have. And now we're getting down to zero. We will be at zero. We're 100% going to zero. Where do they go? Where do they go if we had some major problem, like a GFC or whatever again or a reset? How do they fix that? Josh: I don't know. How do they reset that? They can’t.  Paul: They can't! There was a paper written 18 months ago by the IMF, and in that paper, they said that they are working on models to make -4% to -5% feasible. Josh: All right. Paul: So try to get your head around that.  Josh: I get paid to have a house. Is that right?  Paul: That's already happening overseas.  Josh: I have read up about that. So that would mean that the more debt you've got. Go and buy a house now, ladies and gentlemen.  Paul: Why would they want to do that? Why would they want to get down to -4% to -5%? Josh: Well, I always say if they're getting down to those numbers, it's going to mean that people are going to be more wanting to get loans and get things like that.  Paul: I think it's about getting rid of cash because if they could get rid of cash and move it into a digital world, get rid of the physical cash, then they've got complete control. Josh: Well, see, the problem that I, and this is something that's come about over the last 10, 12 years. When cryptocurrency started coming around, if you're comparing apples with apples, and I'm not going to say that they're both exactly the same, obviously. But when you have a digital currency being compared to a digital currency, which is, if they're getting rid of all paper and all money becomes more frictionless to be able to move from the AUD to a Bitcoin or any of the other cryptocurrencies that are out there without it being is in the power of the banks or anyone else. How do you think they are going to overcome?  Paul: Well, I believe cryptocurrency is a red herring. I believe that it's just been set up for you to play with while they build their real money system. And there's a little bit of a showing of that last week. So in this IMF paper, what they actually said is that they would introduce e-money. They call it e-money. And basically what that means is that that item there is $100. They say, ‘Joshua, you know, that's $100 if you pay cash or $95 if you use e-money.’ And you go, ‘Well, I'll use e-money.’ So that's how they destroy cash. So they make it worth less than what it is. That's how they get rid of it.  There's a bank in Sweden, and the currency in Sweden is krona. The central bank in Sweden has announced the e-krona and they're in the second phase of testing e-krona. Josh: The timing of it's great.  Paul: And of course, it runs on blockchain because blockchain is a great technology. But yeah, it's a decentralized system? I don't believe so. I think it'll be a very centralised system, but it'll definitely be electronic or digital.  Josh: Yeah. Okay. So I guess the recession at this stage, you're saying, is inevitable. It's going to happen. Got a beautiful way to at least have people that are struggling a little bit in their business, whether that be because they need to have more finances bought into it. Or maybe you've got people on the other side of the coin that have liquid assets or liquid cash where they want to be able to use that and invest into something that's going to be giving them a bit of a better return without having to put it into the big nasty banks. How do you go about? How does NoBNK work?  Paul: So the way that NoBNK came around is that many years ago, I looked at many of the managed funds and different places like that where they would collapse. There were quite a few here on the Gold Coast where a lot of those managed funds collapsed and the person who lost that was the investor every single time.  And it's only because the managed funds, number one, they think like a bank. And number two, they take their fees and everything out first. I'm not saying that all managed funds are like this. I'm just saying that when you get that real control freak at the helm, that's when there's a problem. So I designed a system where there is no control freak. So it's all about putting the control, the choices, the security back in the hands of the investor. And the number one thing is the trust. You know, because I think that we put a lot of trust in these organisations, in the corporate side, the banks and a lot of these managed funds. That's what we were told. You know, this is what you do. And I think they’ve broken our trust. I think they've broken our trust big time. You know?  The way that NoBNK is set up is that we make our number one product service. You know, everybody wants service. Well, the banking model can't give you service. It's impossible because of the way that their pecking order is designed. So their pecking order is profits first, shareholders second, then clients, then employees, that's the pecking order. They can't give you service. They don't make money out of service.  We're not about that. We're about, if we create that service for you, where you're having a great experience and you feel that you've got the trust and you will have to trust because what I say to people is, who's the one person that you trust more than anybody else in the world? To make the right finance decision for you. It's yourself, right? You trust yourself more than anybody else. So why are we giving that away? Why are we giving that trust away to the banks? So what we've done with this platform is that we're going to make you the bank.  Josh: Okay.  Paul: If I want to borrow money from you, why do I have to go to a bank to do that? You put your money in the bank and then I go and borrow the money from the bank. That's your money that's in the bank. That's not theirs. So why not just borrow directly from you? So the platform is set up where we facilitate accurate information between somebody who wants to borrow money and someone who wants to lend it. So the terms are all worked out, and if the borrower is happy to go, and the lender is happy to go, we just put those two together. That's all we do. And they've paid monthly returns in events on their investment. I don't know how many other investments you get paid monthly in advance, and it's direct in the security goes into the investor's name. Josh: Okay. So let's say I'm new to the idea and I'm going, ‘Okay. Yeah. Stuff the banks. They've stuffed me over too many times.’ Without saying the bank that I'm with, I can see the interest rates that I could be getting just changing to another bank, I could be saving $11,000 a year in mortgage repayments, and I had to look and I thought, ‘Ah, it's too hard.’ How hard is it? Or how would I go about moving a lot like a house?  Paul: The area that we're not going after at the moment is the consumer market. It's very regulated. There are a lot of rules around that market. We'll get to that. We'll get to that market. But the area that we want to look after, first of all, is the business and commercial arena. I think that if you look after the business side of things first and the business owner, they're gonna have to worry about their day-to-day things rather than worrying about when the next dollars, you know, how they're gonna pay their bills, if the bank's going to foreclose on them and the house is tied to that loan and all that sort of stuff.  So we look at things a lot more commercially and it won't always need to be property initially. There’s a lot of lending that happens out there that a lot of people don't know about, where you might have some text it or you need to, you want to jump on an opportunity pretty quickly and all this sort of stuff. So they use private, short-term lending and that short-term lending could be a loan that's anything from 3 months to 3 years. It’s not a 30-year loan and all that sort of stuff, and it's just about jumping onto an opportunity or it could be getting out of trouble. You know, ‘We're in a bit of trouble over here. We need to pay back the bank and get some cash flow into our business as well so that we can stay afloat.’ So really, we're more targeting that area there at first, which is perfect. Yeah. Well, I think it's an area that's very under-serviced.  And the other area that we're targeting, and this, as I said before, is those people all around the world, those high net worth investors all around the world that's got money sitting in the bank and it's getting them no return or very low returns. We want you to be able to negotiate the term between what sort of return you want. So really you get to choose the return you want. And the client gets to choose whether to accept it or not.  The way this platform is designed is that as an investor, we don't touch your money. So we never touch your money. We're not a managed fund. It's not a pooled investment. It's not a, you know, sort of property trust. It's not a contributory fund, none of that sort of stuff.  It's just one loan, one investor, one loan, one investor, one loan, one investor. So someone wants to borrow $1 million, the investor's gonna put up the whole $1 million, and we're just going to put those two directly. Josh: So it sounds like obviously it's a lot of advantages for both parties in regards to the returns that they're going to be getting, as well as the rates that they're going to be paying because you're cutting out the bank in the middle. What would be some of the, I guess, risks? Or does it take the same amount of time to process through if you wanted to get an equipment finance loan for $50,000 for a new digital printer or something like that. Paul: The process is quick, it all happens within 24 to 48 hours. You'll know how many people So as a borrower, you'll know how many people are interested in doing your loan and you'll get offered the lowest interest rate that they offer.  Josh: Is this a global thing or is this just Australia?  Paul: This will be a global thing. Initially, it's Australia, but we do want to take it globally because the problems that started in the world, the reason why I've talked a lot about Japan is because the reason why they've already experienced all this, what we're going through, is they’re the oldest population in the world, you know? So it all adds up to me. Their ages crossed over and over that 45-year mark, they're average age crossed over 15 or 20 years ago. So it comes in a lot sooner than what it has to us.  Josh: And their workforce is diminishing because of that. Paul: That's exactly right. And the wages aren't going up. All the problems that we're starting to have here in Australia, you know, property prices are going through the roof, but wages aren't going up. So the next step is how does somebody that's on 60 grand a year buy a million dollar property in Sydney? Well, I'll have to have a 70-year mortgage just like they have in Japan. You can see it. You're watching the pattern globally. It's happening all through Europe. You know, there are 30 countries in the Eurozone now that are on zero and negative rates and the lowest is -0.75.  Josh: All right. That's nuts. It's nuts when you think about it, and as you were saying, like it was only 30 years ago, we had the last recession, and so for Japan to be at the position...  Paul: 20% 30 years ago. Now the -0.5.  Josh: And that all comes down to the workforce and the economy, and that's where we're, as you said, we're heading towards the potential issue here.  If someone wants to jump in and jump onto NoBNK or hear any more information, how do they go about sort of doing that? Paul: The good thing about us is we can look after you no matter where you are in Australia and then as I said, that eventually, New Zealand will be pretty quick, but then we'll be going into places like the UK and America and things like that as well. This is something that can go global and that's the whole idea is that we're about like, you know, if you're going to disrupt your models and make it worthwhile.  Josh: Absolutely. If you’re going to kick the big in the head you may as well do it globally.  Paul: They had their place and as I said, we're not going to manage, we're not going to take your money and just go and do a hope and pray thing like many do. Your money stays in the bank under your control, so nothing changes, right? The only thing that changes is you get the opportunity to be able to have a crack at one of these deals and become the bank.  And your worst case scenario is you're sitting there with a security in your name and you're getting a return. Whereas what's your security in the bank? There isn't any, but if you don't win the deal, because it's going to be like an auction type system where you make a bid on what sort of return you want, then nothing's changed in your life. You still get your money sitting in the bank, you know? No one's touching it. No one's taking any fees off you or any of that sort of thing.  We're all about mitigating risks. We've got to mitigate the risk for the borrower, the lender, and for ourselves. So it's about everybody having this happy equilibrium, you know? That's how we're going to structure this thing.  We've got a whole website there. It’s NoBNK.com.au. And the reason why we got B N K is because ASIC won't let us use the word ‘bank’. It's a swear word. So we call ourselves NoBNK and we advertise as NoBNK does that, which has a double meaning. NoBNK does that. Josh: Perfect. As an investor and a borrower, what's the starting and ending amounts you can go for.  Paul: Because we're starting with the property component of it first of all, the minimum line would probably be around the $50,000 mark. This is why we're up to sophisticated investors. So this is some for your institutional versus, or you know, like your mum and dad's and things like that. You must be a high net worth. You know, I know people out there, they have tens of millions just sitting in the bank.  Josh: Yep.  Paul: Globally. So you might have somebody, you might have a deal here in Australia. There might be somebody in Japan that makes a bid on the deal and all of a sudden they're getting a return of 4%, 5%, 6%, 7%, whatever it is, whatever that agreed return is, where they're getting nothing over there, but they've actually got to pay to put their money in the bank over there. So it's a really good outcome because, you know, we just let the market set itself dynamically. There is no ‘ring Paul up and say, “Mate, what interest rate can I get?”’ There's none of that anymore. It's just like, well, it's whatever anyone's prepared to bid and whatever you're prepared to pay. Josh: Yep. So it's win-win. Paul: And look, there's rules for the investors. I've got a pretty good record. We're doing this sort of thing.  Josh: You've been doing it for more than 10 years?  Paul: Yeah, about 10, about 12 years now. I've been doing these sorts of loans for some high net worth. And in that amount of time, we've had no foreclosures and the investors haven’t lost money in the capital. And it's just about managing it.  Josh: That's a good run.  Paul: Yeah. It's just about managing. You don't smash people when they're down. You help them. You don't have to be all hard about it. You know, you're a day late or two days late with your payment. It's about managing it. Nobody gets hurt. You know what I mean?  Josh: So how do you guys come into it? Do they just clip the ticket on the way through?  Paul: You have a gross line amount. You have a net loan amount. You got to add that first month's interest. There's lawyers involved, there's all sorts of things, which for the investors, it's great for them. It's their lawyer. So it's a lawyer of their choice. And you know, usually there's brokers involved in all the research, so there's nothing under the table. So there's no hidden fees and charges and all that sort of stuff. In our letter of offer, it's like, say for example, you want half a million dollars and it might cost $520,000 you know, like when you add everything up. So you say, okay, so your gross loan amount is 520, that's what it is. You'll see all the costs that are involved, all the rest of it, and you get the choice to say, ‘Yeah. I'm happy with that.’ ‘Well, no, thank you.’  Josh: Fair enough. Cool. Cool, cool, cool. I think there's going to be a big help for a lot of people that are feeling a bit of pressure, whether that'd be as an investor or they're looking potentially down the barrel of a gun for a business. They might not be going as well as it was. Is there anything else you'd like to add? Paul: There's lots of businesses out there that need lots of help in different ways. It's not just about, you know, finance and properties and all that sort of stuff. It's just about knowing that there are people out there that, you know, we'll have a chat about it first. I mean, whether you've been rejected by a bank, don't want to go to their bank or can't go to a bank, that's why we're here. So pretty well covers everybody. When you do those things, we tell them, you don't go to the bank, come to NoBNK.  Josh: I guess back in the day, there was like no-doc loans and things like this. This is from a business owner's perspective. Paul: It's a very, very simple process. So you know, the information that we asked from you is not onerous. It's really quite simple. It's a very quick application process. This platform that we've built that we'll be releasing in the next couple of weeks, it'll be automated. It's just a quick, you know, fill in the application process type of thing and you'll get SMS and emails and all that sort of stuff, and then so will the investors and they'll be able to start bidding on your deals straight away.  Josh: Sweet.  Paul: It's a little bit of a game changer, come to the market.  Josh: Absolutely. Yeah.  Paul: That's what it's about, isn't it? It's about changing things up and seeing if we can do it better and make a change, you know, a different change for the better for once rather than just doing the same as everybody else.  Josh: Really enjoyed talking to you and is there anything else you'd like to add before we jump off? Paul: No, mate, I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. I'd like to wish everybody out there that, you know, there is hope. It costs you nothing to apply with us or to have a chat with us or anything like that. So, you know, your people wanting to, you know, they're welcome to have a chat anytime they like. Josh: Cool. Only advantages and as I said, a very welcome time for me to be talking to you about this sort of stuff for a lot of people out there.  Paul: Appreciate it, mate. Thank you very much.  Josh: If you have any questions and bits and pieces, we'll put a link down to NoBNK as well as Paul's details. If you've enjoyed this episode, jump across to iTunes, leave us a review, give us some love and stay good. 

NAKTERNL ENTERTAINMENT PRESENTS NAKTERNL RADIO EPISODE 17 HERE IS THE SEVENTEENTH EPISODE OF OUR ONLINE RADIO SHOW MIXED BY OUR RESIDENT DJ MIKE SHAWR. THIS WEEK SHOW FEATURES TRACKS FROM THE LIKES OF ROLAND CLARK, JOSH ONE, LOW STEPPA AND MANY MORE! ENJOY!!!!! 1. Don’t Leave Me This Way (Kevin McKay Extended Mix) – Start […] The post Nakternl Radio Episode 17 appeared first on Nakternl Entertainment.

Welcome back to the Club Room for an hour of the very latest and in my opinion the greatest new music I have discovered this week. Listen out for new tracks from Soulwax, Adriatique, Redshape, Markus Suckut, Gerd Janson, Cromby, Marco, Maceo Plex, Special Request and myself. Plus a total club classic from the genius that is King Britt. Enjoy! 1. Robyn - Ever Again (Soulwax Remix) 2. Delhia de France - Tremors Nemesis' (Adriatique Remix) 3. Redshape – Rise 4. Markus Suckut – Shoreditch 5. Deetron - Photon (Gerd Janson DJ Version) 6. Cromby – Cruising 7. Anja Schneider - Far Side Of The Moon 8. Marco Faraone - Don't Need You 9. The Advent & CJ Bolland - Camargue 2019 (Maceo Plex Remix) 10. Josh One & King Britt - Contemplation (King Britt Funke Remix) 11. Special Request – 237,000 Miles

Full show: http://kNOwBETTERHIPHOP.com Artists Played: E-TURN, DILLA, conshus, Dave Dar, Kannon Salim Dar, Bekon, PremRock, Fresh Kils, Blockhead, Tom Misch, Talib Kweli, Yummy Bingham, Jay Electronica, Josh One, Shana Halligan, Blu, Exile, Giraffage, Matosic, Hiko Momoji, Chris Dave, Elzhi, Phonte Coleman, Eric Roberson, J Dilla, Jorok, Kristen Warren, Stick Figure, TOKiMONSTA, Selah Sue, Ezri, Leisure Chief, Wax Tailor, Raashan Ahmad, Mattic, Fatbabs, Nabihah Iqbal, ChanHays, Edo G, Reks, Skyzoo, Reeny Smith, Free Tillman, OutKast, GOODie MOb, IMAKEMADBEATS

Wenn du zur richtigen Zeit im richtigen Club warst, hast du Underground House erlebt, wie aus diesem Podcast. Während die Interpreten wie Djaimin & Crystal Re-Clear, Submission, Josh One, Ministers De La Funk und Those Guys relativ unbekannt sind, erkennst du bestimmt ihre Musik. Viele Underground Club-Hits der 90er entdecke ich heutzutage auf Samplern wieder. […] Der Beitrag HSP187 Underground Classics von Jocelyn Brown, Submission, Josh One und King Britt erschien zuerst bei Houseschuh. Verpasse keine Podcast-Folge und werde VIP-Hörer unter houseschuh.com/vip.

Full show: http://kNOwBETTERHIPHOP.com Artists Played: Jorok, Kristen Warren, Niko Is, Marz Mello, conshus, AG of DITC, John Robinson, Blu, Dave Dar, Ray West, Jophlo, DJ King James, Zagnif Nori, Josh One, Eighty, Jamall Bufford, Shredders, Kidswaste, Manila Killa, Big K.R.I.T., Joi, LOrange, Modern Scribe, Megan Shuck, Tribeca-Grand, Superet, Mega Ran, Edamame, F.E.E.L. (Fearlessly Elevating Eliminating Limitations), Jamar X, Jay Z, No ID, The Mynabirds, Wordsworth, Sam Brown, Cvd, OutKast, GOODie MOb, IMAKEMADBEATS

We're back for some reason...

The real Delice Story / Recorded @ Manhattan Café Part 1 Sounds of Delice between 2000 and 2008 . Beginning of the story that let us do parties all over the world. Demon , Dj On , Ralphi Rosario , Shakedown , Smoke City , Armand Van Helden , Joe Smooth , Shapeshifters , Sweet Drop , 4Tune 500 , Orielle , Samim , OutWork , Josh One , Jurgen Paape , ....

This is an exclusive Jazztronica! mix for one of my favorite NY record / tastemaker shops nested in Dumbo, Brooklyn. 1. Wax Tailor - Ungodly Fruit 2. Josh One feat Aloe Blacc - Risin' 3. Nightmares on Wax - The Sweetest 4. Madlib - Testin Me (Instr.) 5. Strange Fruit Project - Soul Clap 6. Marc Mac presents Visioneers - Rollin' for the Ride 7. Mos Def - There is a Way 8. Fort Knox Five feat. Akil Dasan - Blowing Up the Spot 9. Gang Starr - Words I Manifest (Remix) 10. DJ NuMark & Pomo - Lola 11. Zeph & Azeem - Come One Come All 12. Sergio Mendes feat. Q-Tip and Will.I.Am - The Frog 13. Eric Sermon feat. Marvin Gaye - Music 14. Eric B. & Rakim - I Know You Got Soul 15. Lyrics Born feat. the Poet of Rhythm - I Changed my Mind (Remix) 16. Nick Nack - Do You Believe Me ? (DJ Chicken George presents: The Swed.u.s.h Connection 2)

With tracks from Jaydee, Function, DJ Hell, Oculus, Henry Cullen/Pattrix, Carl Craig, Thomas Muller, Will Saul/Tam Cooper, Tres Demented, Vincenzo, Tony Lionni, Anthony Rother, Paul Kalkbrenner, Josh One, Mathew Jonson, Syclops and Laurent Garnier. Contact: dj@ribeaud.ch.

(Subscribe for free with iTunes and get this and future podcasts directly into your iPod, iPhone, or computer in CD quality.  One click on button below =) We've been in touch with Brent Crampton for years and finally met him in person in Miami at the Winter Music Conference - Mi Casa Pool Party.  We are very proud to bring you this exclusive [M&W Radio] set from an amazing artist who is properly holding it down in the Midwest. Multi-award winning DJ, including Best DJ in 2006-2008 for the Omaha Entertainment & Arts Awards, Scion/Imeem Breakthrough Emerging Artist in 2006, named one of Omaha's top artists of the year in 2009 by The Reader and recognized as a NextAid.org artist, Brent Crampton has been pushing the boundaries of music and culture throughout the Midwest.  His sound centers around the deep house and global soul movement, yet defies genres, dropping anything from underground disco, conscious hip hop, party rocking classics, post punk and world flavors such as afrobeat, samba and bhangra. Most importantly, his music has a message: Bringing people together – connecting through music – releasing in dance. Crampton founded the global soul party by the name of "loom" in 2006. It has established itself as the longest running dance party in Omaha and has had international guest DJs such as Kevin Yost, jojoflores, Sabo, FLX and Julius the Mad Thinker. Essentially, Crampton created a soulful and multicultural dance party in a middle-tier Midwestern city that previously had none. His impression has been made throughout North America and beyond, having performed in places such as London, Mexico, NYC, Chicago, Miami, Montreal, Las Vegas, Boston and Hawaii. He's promoted shows or played alongside talent such as King Britt, The Rapture DJs (The Rapture), Todd Fink & Jacob Thiele of The Faint, Alton Miller, Colette (OM), Sierra Leones Refugee Allstars, Woody McBride, Josh One and Tim Sweeney (DFA). In all, his driving ambitions have made him one of the most sought after and active DJs in the area. “There is a healing power in music - and I want to get that out to the people,” says Crampton.  For more information visit www.BrentCrampton.com Here's the tracklist of the mix (for the collectors among us): 1. Love Will Find A Way - Stardust  2. In Pursuit Of The Pimp Mobile - Isaac Hayes 3. I Never Thought I'd See Glittertind 4. Shining Your Way (Jephte's Tet Kale Dub) - Jephte Guillaume pres. AK 5. Do It Tomorrow - Akwaaba 6. Do With You - Suges feat Limore 7. Sunday Showers - Kenphonik 8. Superman - Black Coffee feat Bucie 9. Lovin' U - Marie Joly 10. Upside (Bugz Dubside Mix) - Reel People feat Darien 11. Sunshine (Kenny Dope & Terry Hunter Sunset Dub) - Terisa Griffin 12. Babatunde - Fast Vision Soul 13. Rosa Nova (Dj Smoove Vienna Deep Dub) - Hanna Hais 14. Jazzy Kinda Sum'n - Mark Grant 15. Reach Inside (Sean McCabe Vocal Mix) - Bah Samba 16. Touched - Shannon Chambers 17. Yemeya - John Beltran   Enjoy the mix and see you on Saturday night at Martinis!

Mixed Oct 08. Spacey Grooves & Cosmic Disco. A fresh hypnotic funktec mix with a sprinkle of classic house stardust. 1. Lorenzo vs Stage One - Steve's Deep Space Intro (CDR) 2. Furry Phreaks - Lament for a dead computer (Miso) 3. Klute - Only memory is a good one (Commercial Suicide) 4. Kelley Polar - Entropy Reigns - Pearson & Ushers Closed System Dub (Environ) 5. Ahmet Sendil -Your kisses dynamite - Delete Remix (Sender Records) 6. TJ Kong - Merging feat Robert Owens - Jay Shepheard Mix (Compost) 7. Ben Watt - Guinea Pig - Vocal Variation Mix (Buzzin Fly) 8. Layo & Bushwacka - Djemba (Olmeto Records) 9. Justin Martin - The Fugitive - Winning Circle Mix (Buzzin Fly) 10. Atmosfear - Dancing in Outer Space - Acapella (Disorient) 11. Josh One vs Broombeck - Contemplation Turns Mono - Steves Sky Tower Mashed mix (CDR) 12. Turntablerocker - Hand in Hand (Compost) 13. Naughty - World of a Woman - The Green Men Mix (Mood Music Records) 14. TF & Moltoguso - Are You Doin It With Me (Airplane) 15. Black Science Orchestra - New Jersey Deep 2008 (Junior Boys Own Records)