Spooky Sconnie Podcast

Long time, no see (hear? words are hard)! I'm back with some personal news and an amazing interview with filmmaker Josh Armstrong. Links Apocryphal - http://apocmovie.com/  Shift on amazon prime - https://www.amazon.com/Shift-Raymond-Hemson/dp/B08L44F3PQ  Josh's website - https://www.jsarmstrong.com/ Pentagon confirms leaked photos and video of UFOs are legitimate - https://bit.ly/3bwhIXw  Take The ACE Quiz — And Learn What It Does And Doesn't Mean - https://n.pr/2S04rzG  Beyond Health Care: The Role of Social Determinants in Promoting Health and Health Equity - https://bit.ly/3w9usez What mental health resources are available? - https://bit.ly/3tUD4UR   Wisconsin Mental Health Resources - https://bit.ly/3eT4p5K  For resources on ableism and disability, visit http://bit.ly/Dis101Resources  ----more---- Rough transcript: hello, spooky friends, and welcome to the spooky sconnie podcast. The podcast that explores all of the wonderfully wicked and wild Things that go on in the state of Wisconsin. I'm your host Grayson Schultz. Um, you might be noticing some new things around the podcast. It's been a minute and the podcast took a break, um, was dealing with some life stuff as I'm sure we all have been doing during the pandemic. Um, one of the things that I started doing, and I'm sure I've talked about this before, but I hate listening to my own voice. So I'm not going to go listen to past episodes. But one of the things that I started doing in January of 2020, um, is I started testosterone and started transitioning to being more masculine. And, um, for a little bit here, it's been a little difficult for me to control the pitch and volume of my voice. And so I wanted to wait until that was a little bit better under controls, being able to record new podcast episodes, uh, because I know I would probably lose it. If I was listening to somebody crackling and going through puberty on a podcast, you will hear voice breaks. I am sure you will. But, um, for the most part, things have evened out and, um, my voice has gotten a lot deeper. Other things have happened to I'm turning into Robin Williams, all of a sudden with all the hair. Um, it's been a pretty wild almost a year and a half here. Um, and, and with that too, I've been using a new first name Grayson, um, and needed to kind of reconfigure things to match all of that. So if you stay and listen to the outro, there's new outro, it's basically the same script. I just changed my name, um, and a couple of other things that I needed to take care of. Um, and also I am working in public health right now. And as you can imagine, uh, kind of a fun time and by fun, I mean not really fun at all. Um, it interesting time to be working in public health and it's a little taxing. Um, so, you know, with, with the pandemic, with people, not to reason or science, and now with the CDC pulling stuff about not having to wear masks, if you're fully vaccinated without explaining to people the risks, um, and that a vaccine does not necessarily mean you will not get COVID, it just means you might not die from it might not die from it. Um, anyway, I won't get on my soapbox there, but, um, it's been a minute and I'm really glad to be in a position to, um, at least record a couple of episodes here and there over the summer at the very least. Um, I am having top surgery in July. Um, for those of you who are not familiar with, uh, gender affirming surgeries, top surgery, for those of us who are on testosterone and like transitioning to masculine or male appearance, um, basically is getting rid of my womanly chest and turning it into something that I can like actually walk around outside with. So I'm very excited about that. Um, but that also means that there might be another disruption in, you know, the timetable of releasing episodes around then. Um, my goal is to try to maybe get ahead of that and record some more episodes, you know, uh, before then and have them scheduled and ready to go. We'll see what happens, uh, between work and the 5,000 other projects I do and, you know, spending time with my partner, um, which brings up another thing. Um, I may not actually be living in Wisconsin a whole lot less. Um, I, I started dating somebody last year who lives in Ohio of all places and, and, um, we are in talks like a, some sort of negotiation we're talking, talking about moving in together, um, which would be me moving there. So, um, you know, the, the podcast may change a little bit, um, may not be as focused on Wisconsin specifically. We'll see what happens with it. Um, but my goal is to keep the podcast going. So, you know, we'll, we'll see what happens, everything's up in the air. Um, and I'm really excited. Um, and his is a pretty fantastic person and I'm really very lucky and feel very affirmed and cared and supported, um, and very loved, which is really nice, really, really, really nice. Uh, I will stop talking about that because I don't want to get mushy on here. So, um, for this first episode back, um, I actually am doing an interview. What I know, um, I sat down with Josh Armstrong, who is a filmmaker, um, to talk about his work and talk a little bit about why, um, he is fundraising for an upcoming project. And I think it sounds really, really, really cool. So I'm gonna throw you not, I'm not gonna throw you, Oh my God. I'm going to throw it to past me. I mean, a conversation with Josh. Um, and then I'll talk to you a little bit more at the end. Okay. Okay. Hi, Josh. Thanks so much for joining me today. I thank you for inviting me. Yeah. Um, for people who don't know who you are, could you like tell them a little bit about, um, the work that you do and the kind of the themes that you like to portray in your work? Yeah, absolutely. So as you probably realize from my accent, I'm a London filmmaker in England and at the moment I'm really driving to break or essentially redefine horror and science fiction to better portray mental illness. Um, I think it's a theme which is so vital talk about, I see it as really the next big pandemic, if not the current, you know, another covered academic. Um, but that's what I worked with was I'm a filmmaker who tries to make people, uh, not see the stigmas of mental health. That's, that's really cool. And I think something that's super important, um, especially like during the pandemic, right. I think, um, a lot of people who may have had good coping mechanisms back in the old times, right. Seems to go, um, you know, are, are maybe now struggling with like isolation and how that might be bringing up depression or anxiety around things reopening or, you know, all of that. And so I think this is, you know, incredibly precious, right? It's, it's incredibly time sensitive stuff. Um, Yeah. And if you look at the current situation, I think if you talk to most people below the age of 40, and even even older than that, almost everybody says they've experienced some form of mental illness or really struggled with their mental health. Uh, in Britain we say, Oh, you know, keep calm and carry on. I don't know if that's a popular phrase, but, uh, I just, I think that's not what you should do. I think we need to talk about it because if we ignore it, it's just going to make the situation so much worse and we need to look out for each other. Yeah. And so much of that starts right. Um, with, with tearing down walls that are historically built, right. Whether that's, um, as we talk about systems of oppression and healthcare, or, you know, um, the ways that I don't have the problem with healthcare. Oh, do you guys just want to like a job to me? Can I just More than welcome to come by? But like, like as we talk about ways that that oppression shows up, right. Like, I think it's very telling that a lot of people don't like to talk about their mental health, um, because it's one way that we've kind of self reinforced this idea of like, keep calm and carry on. Right. Like if I don't talk about it, it's not there. I don't have to deal with it. Yeah, exactly. And I think we're seeing the impacts of that now, uh, especially in the younger generations, um, you know, I always try to incorporate these subjects in my films, whether it be horror sci-fi as I mentioned. Um, but I think the important thing is yet to just work towards creating that content because you look at say the cabinet of Dr. Category writes a film made in the 1920s and the depiction of mental illness in that is shocking. If you watch it now it's really quite depressing. Um, but even now with TV shows like American horror story, even then the person with mental illness is often villainized. And really they're the people who need the most help rather than the people that they're supposedly after it trying to swing a chain, saw a rat, uh, you know, we really need to push full together in changing this representation in film as well, because it does make such a huge influence. It really does. Um, I have a friend who who's visiting right now. Um, who's dating my roommate and, um, they have schizophrenia and, you know, one of the things that I think other people might have been concerned about, about them visiting it's like, Oh yeah, schizophrenia is one of the quote, unquote, bad mental illnesses. Like you can't, you know, you can't handle that. Like what happens if they have an episode, whatever. Right. Um, and the reality of, of any mental health right. Issue is it's, it's made so much scarier in the media. Right. Um, you know, my friend definitely deals with hallucinations, but has also had, you know, years of dealing with them and is on medication and knows how to cope with them. And in healthy ways that like, it's one of those things where, um, people often don't trust the person that has the mental illness, um, to handle their own thing. Right. Like they know their own body, they know their mind, they know how things might be for them. It's important to kind of let them take ownership of that. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I think as well, it's interesting because if you look at Asia, people with schizophrenia are more likely to hear positive voices and have positive hallucinations. Whereas in the Western world, it's the opposite and often negative, which I think really helps drive home the message that there is a correlation between negative mental illness and then negative influence. Um, my friend passed away, uh, from heroin addiction a couple of years ago. Uh, and he had schizophrenia. And what I found though, when I tell that story is that people just think, Oh, we died from heroin addiction. Well, he went to heroin because of schizophrenia and because it was so difficult for him to find that support. So, you know, it, do you, I keep drilling it's home. It's so important to talk about it. Um, and by the sounds of it, it's good that your friend has you and, you know, they have somebody they can rely on. Um, I think it's been an interesting journey for me having them here. Um, you know, as somebody who talks a lot about mental health and like my own mental health, um, I think there was still as, as much as everybody tries to, you know, practice what they preach. Right. So to speak, I think because of media and like negative representation and stuff like that, there was still a part of me that was like, huh. And that's a good description of it. I don't know how I'm going to caption that. No, I think, I think it's also one of those things of, if you don't know somebody who has one of those conditions, that's so stigmatized, you're not going to talk to them. You're not going to like learn what it's like for them or the ways that they're able to cope or handle those things. Right. And so it's almost like the self perpetuating cycle where, okay, we're not going to talk about it. Um, which means we don't know which, which people in our lives may have conditions, which means we don't know like the healthy ways people cope or, um, you know, anything that would, de-stigmatize the conditions, which then leads to us not talking about it. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's uh, yeah. I mean, w what can you say it's so important? I think that we move forward in various different stadiums to address big issue, because we don't want it to be until too late. Um, especially with my friends, you know, what you think sadly was when he passed away, decided he just, wasn't a surprise because we'd seen him go downhill so often. Um, but if there wasn't this huge stigma against schizophrenia, maybe it would have, you know, worked out a little bit differently. And especially, you know, saying earlier that specifically in Western culture, schizophrenia does tend to involve negative, uh, hallucinations. Um, yeah. Well, let's, uh, let's shift to talking a little bit about shift, uh, The, the short that you have that's on Amazon right now. Yeah. So you can watch it free with Amazon prime. It was, gosh, how so shift is a supernatural ice rink, thriller. That's how I always pitch it. It's a 10 minute little short and we crowdfunded it with 2,500 pounds in the U S I think that's like three know $3,500. My is terrible. I could make anything. I don't know, but we made it with a very short, uh, sorry with a very small amount of money, uh, for film. And it did really well in festivals. We really try to explore if it was possible to create tension and suspense on a well lit ice rink. And I think we definitely succeeded. Yeah. I would agree As, as someone who, uh, plays hockey, um, it was really fun to kind of see a different kind of tension, right. Like on ice. Um, I'm a goalie, so I'm usually like getting to see like all of this different tension between the different players or players on myself. Right. Um, and it was really fun to be able to see this different kind of tension. And there's like a part of you that knows at the beginning that like something bad is going to happen. Right. Like that that's part of that tension, but like, just the way that, that you, you guys crafted the story and the cinematography was really great. Um, and I just also really enjoyed kind of that little last twist at the end. Um, did not see that coming at all. And then I was like, Oh my God. Well, I, yeah. I hope your listeners really your choice as well. It was a fun thing to still feel that's for sure. It was surprisingly, we only did it over three nights, so yeah, three long nights, but, you know, there were certain restrictions in place at the interstate all picked up fine now, um, which is why we're working towards crowd funding and other projects, uh, on a bigger and more, shall we say, vibrant scale. Yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit about, um, your new project? Uh, yeah, sure. Why not? Um, so gosh, you'd think after all this time I'll be able to pitch it well. So, so essentially it's a film, uh, mental illness and drug addiction, and we follow the story of a drug addict who has paid out of this world, uh, encounter with aliens. And the question is how would society treat them if a member of the public came up to you looking like they've had a wild night out and they said to you, Oh, I've just been abducted by aliens. Would you stop and listen to it now to do this sort of film? We've actually worked with the battle winning story writer of his house, which is a really great little horror film. Uh, that's exposed some really important themes of all time. And we're working really to, as I mentioned earlier, sort of redefine horror tackle stigmas of mental health. And what I like to do in my work is try to blur those lines of realism as claims, say of realism and surrealism. Um, because I feel like that is for me trying to get somebody to understand what mental health is like. You know, there are some great little projects, uh, out there and indeed Gogo scene and spark. There's some great projects out there. There's one which is called [inaudible], which is, you know, explores like stigmas of mental disabilities combined with homophobia. Um, and there are so many of these little projects that are going on, but in order for them to happen, we need supportive of fans because I think we can probably safely say that when you look at the film industry, they seem to just want to perpetuate this villainization of mental illness in order for us to stop that we need to work together and try to support projects that go against that. I don't know if I actually talked about the film, but yeah. So we're crowdfunding a film called apocryphal, which is a scifi horror, and it's a 34,000 pound goal, which I think is like $45,000. It changes every day. I can't keep up with that, but I think that's the conversion. Um, and all of that goes to just creating this film. You know, I don't make any money from it. Uh, I put in my own money and spurt as well. We've all arranged to sleep, head to toe in one hotels need cardboard food. Nope. All of the money goes to creating this film because we feel it's such an important project to make. And I think too, like the notion of, you know, kind of exploring if somebody comes to you and says, Hey, I just had like an alien encounter. I was just abducted. Right. I, I think it's such an interesting way to talk about like mental illness and addiction too, because oftentimes, you know, if people don't really believe in aliens or whatever, right. Like if somebody comes to you and was like, Hey, this is a thing that just happened. There's automatically this dismissal of, Oh, okay. Like you were either inebriated high for your crazy. Right. Um, the, those are kind of the things that leap to people's minds immediately. And so I think it's especially cool way to explore mental health and addiction because those things are so intertwined when it comes to alien abduction stories. And, you know, I think, I don't know, what's, I believe if you'd asked me three years ago, do I believe, uh, eight years of visited earth? I would say no. And now I just have no idea, you know, with the Pentagon have released all this video footage of UFO's I just, and we've got this report coming out June 1st. I just don't know what to believe anymore. And so that really does, as you said, just go hand in hand with mental illness. I don't know when to believe some people who have extreme mental illnesses and that's really sad on my part. Um, you know, I, I should be able to support them as much as possible, but I just feel there isn't enough of a foundation out there to, for these people to get all of the support they need. Um, one thing I found with my friend was sadly that we were giving so much support. Eventually it starts to consume your own life and it puts your own mental health down and it's hard work. Um, but if I foundation of support had been there from the start, uh, perhaps he would still be with us. Um, and you know, that's, that's a theme that we explore in the film as well, where these detectives that's, the main character is speaking to just look at him as if he's guilty of a crime or talking like he's mad, man. So yeah, we, we really hope that it actually resonates with people and, you know, challenges, their ideas of how to preach even people in the streets look like they need to talk to something. Yeah. I, I really liked that. Um, yeah, I, I have had a few friends, um, you know, like, like the friend that's visiting us right now, um, who, who struggle a lot with their mental health and it's, um, I mean, shoot, I do too, but mine is always like super internalized and nobody can tell there's anything wrong. Right. Like, um, which I feel like there's, there's stigma there too, but it's like a whole different world of stigma. Right. Um, and I think it's interesting, um, that the seems to be like a relatively global thing, right. Um, that the portrayals in media, aren't always as positive, uh, of mental health and that there is some sort of stigma around whether it's talking about your own mental health or, um, you know, certain types of mental illness, um, especially like hallucinatory based ones. Um, and like America, sorry, I think in America as well. It's, it's so important. I know that, uh, people with mental illness, I think that, I think there are 8.3 million Americans who are openly, uh, saying that they were addicted to drugs and have mental illness. I mean, that's huge. That's absolutely massive. So, you know, I won't go into the politics of it all, but you know, when you look at, say gun crime, uh, in America, uh, you know, we don't have two things progressive, but obviously the people who are doing them have mental illness. And I think you have to, I have to pick the question. If a foundation had been there to support their mental health, would they have gone and done what they've done, uh, because, uh, you know, same person would do those sorts of atrocities. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's good. Deepest. Um, I think there's also, um, a lot to be said for like adverse childhood experiences. Right. Um, and I don't know if it's something that, you know, a ton about, but there's, um, the, the center for disease control here, um, put together kind of, well, they didn't put it together, but they like highlighted it it's from a study. Um, and that there are a certain number of adverse childhood experiences that you can go through as you're growing up that also make you more statistically likely to develop, um, not only like mental health issues, but substance use and addiction issues, um, issues around possibly like committing crimes, um, and living in kind of like continual poverty or having worse overall health outcomes and things like that. Um, and you know, some of those things are actually like one of them is, uh, living with a parent guardian or other adult that has undiagnosed and, or untreated mental health issues. Um, which I think is a really poignant thing. Absolutely. Especially now that we only really started to talk about, yeah, my parents' generation, it was very much keep calm and carry on. Uh, and that did affect me that attitude. So yeah, I think that's really true believe. Um, but you know, for, for the film as well, we try to have as much of a diverse crew as possible in order to essentially make this feel more pointed with as many people as possible. You know, we've got, uh, LGBT, we've got people from all various different ethnicities and different accents, uh, you know, so I think it's so important to just try to speak to as many people as possible and work together for a common cause whether it be in film or indeed ensuring that, uh, our children, the next generation, don't this negative impression of being able to talk about things. Yeah. It's, it is really interesting. Um, so I I'm on Tik TOK because I have no life and because there's a pandemic, um, one of the things that I've found on Tik TOK is there are a lot of people kind of, um, millennials too, like the younger generations, right. That are really doing a lot about talking around, Hey, like, do these symptoms sound familiar? You might actually have ADHD that was never diagnosed. Right. Because you grew up a girl or whatever. Um, and so it's really cool to be able to see that kind of movement happening, um, on social media platforms with some of the younger like crowd and knowing that this is like the perfect time, right. To talk more about mental health, to talk more about like, how do we grapple with the different things that might keep somebody from getting diagnosed or treated. And, um, you know, I think it's just like the perfect time to work on this project. Yeah, absolutely. Um, it's something we've been working on for almost a year now in pre production. So passionate about it, any support we can get. So, so appreciative. Um, but even if people can't fund it, if they can share it, that makes such a huge difference as well. But if people do want to go ahead and fund it, they can@apocmovie.com, that's APOCmovie.com. And yeah, we really hope that you'll enjoy the content we have on there. And you feel that this is something, you know, you'd like to get involved with. Super cool. I'm so excited for this project. And I, I know it will be fully funded. I'm just going to like, bring that into the universe right now. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. You know, I think we have such an amazing class and it's such an important theme that, you know, I, I think we can do this, but we all need to work together to make it up. Yup. Agreed. Well, thank you so much for coming on and talking about your work. I'm super excited to be able to share this with other people. Is there anything else that you want to say to anybody who might be listening before I turn off the recording? Um, gosh. So just the people. No, I, I actually also work in COVID lab and I just want people to know, you know, just stay safe, keep sanitizing your hands, wear your masks. Uh, just ultimately look out for each other. Cause so important to speak to people who need help right now, keep going, pandemic will be over. We can get through it, but we can only get through it together. I think it's so important for us to think about what that means. Right. Um, Josh's parting words with us there. It is really telling that so much of the world kind of focuses in on this individuality aspect. Um, especially here in the States, right? We're all, all for one and one for themselves. Right. It's got nothing to do with community. Um, capitalism, doesn't really set things up that way. Right. And there are a million things I could say about capitalism and why I hate it. But I think one of the key features of it is that removal of community, of communal thinking of communal action. Um, and I think that's part of why during COVID times we've seen such a big boom of people engaging in mutual aid work. Um, that's been something that I've actually been doing a lot of in the last couple months, um, you know, giving things like an old better way and helping people get stuff set up in their new places and moving things, um, and doing other things that, that are really helpful, um, to individuals, right. But also to our communities. Um, and I would just encourage you if you have the ability and the means to do that. If you have something that you are really good at, or you really like to do that can be turned into something that helps another person, right. Whether it's fixing up a computer or, um, being some, some muscle to move some stuff around or, um, doing a grocery run for the community fridge or something like that, um, that you, that you spend time and take time to do that, um, I think is really important. And I would say, especially as we start thinking more about what does community look like, right. Um, I know here in Madison, we are pushing more and more towards less police presence and we're not the only city doing that by any means. Um, but if we were to have an end to policing, as we know it, what would justice look like? Right. Like what would our justice system look like? What would there have to be set up from a community standpoint for that to work? Um, and I think, I think this is a really great first step for a lot of people to think about, you know, stepping in and helping other people when you have the means and ability to do it. I also really, um, I want to point out another thing that Josh and I talked about, um, about ableism, right, as essentially what we were talking about and the different ways that it ingrains itself into representation. Um, and I know I've talked about ableism before, but there are, you know, a couple of different kinds of able is. Um, and one of the things I want to call out specifically is seen as, um, which is able as, um, um, geared at people with mental health conditions, substance use disorder, um, intellectual disabilities, things like that. And, um, I think it's just really important to call that out. We see a lot of movies where killers are, you know, mentally unfit or deranged or unhinged. And the reality is that that's not who generally commits crimes, right? Like my mental health actually makes me more likely to be a victim. Um, with some health conditions, it can be up to 10 times more likely to be a victim than a perpetrator of a crime. And that's especially true for people who have some of the more quote unquote severe, you know, kinds of mental health issues like schizophrenia or Schizoaffective disorder and especially true if you are a woman, right. Or, um, a racial or ethnic minority and the other different identities that you might hold really impact your likelihood of being a victim. Right. Um, I also want to share a definition of ableism for those of you who might not know what it is. Um, like I said, I'm sure we've talked about it before on here, but, um, I specifically wanted to use a working definition by Talia Lewis, um, who has helped, has been helped in coming up with this, um, definition by other disabled black and negatively racialized folk, including Dustin Gibson. Um, and so Abel isms announ, and it is a system that places value on people's bodies and minds based on societaly constructed ideas of normalcy, intelligence, excellence, and productivity. These constructed ideas are deeply rooted in anti-blackness eugenics, colonialism, and capitalism. This pharma's systemic oppression leads to people and society determining who is valuable and worthy based on a person's appearance and or their ability to satisfactorily produce reproduce Excel and quote unquote behave. You do not have to be disabled to experience ableism. And one way I'd like to point out, you know, cause we do talk about ableism a lot, um, in, in work that I do. And one thing I want to point out about the fact that you don't have to be disabled to experience [inaudible] um, is, you know, we saw a lot of discussion over the last four or five years about Donald Trump and his mental health, um, or his overall health. And there were a lot of people who would cite things like he's crazy, he's unhinged, et cetera. Now we don't know. Right. Like if he has a mental health issue, if he has other health issues, we don't know that. And frankly, it's not our business to know. I hate the man. I hope he burns in hell, but like from, from a very basic human standpoint, it's nobody's business. Um, and there have been presidents who have had mental health issues before Lincoln had horrible depression and other, um, presidents have had other health issues, right? Like having a mental illness or, or any health issue does not preclude you from being a public official or even precedent. Right. The issue here is that people are connecting possible illnesses to reasons why Trump did or said or put into place XYZ. And when you do that, um, not only are you kind of excusing his actions, you're actually like harming the disability community as a whole, right? Like, um, the American psychological association says like nobody can armchair diagnose, like even the best of the best psychologists and therapists are not allowed to armchair diagnose. Like they can get in trouble reprimanded and possibly lose their license for that. So if they can't do it, nobody really should be doing it. Uh, and you know, we don't know again, to kind of go back to my main point, right. We don't know if, if Trump has a mental health issue or not, um, and acting as though he does often exposes him to be on the receiving end of ableism. Not that he pays attention to that, but like people act and, um, speak in ways about him that are full of ablest rhetoric and harm. Um, and again, that really doesn't do anything to Trump. It doesn't really do anything to his supporters. What it does is tell the disabled people in your life, um, that you don't care about us because if you did, you wouldn't be resorting to that kind of conversation, that kind of language. Right. Um, and that system of oppression. Right. Um, and I'm gonna put some links in the show notes about things like ablest language that we can work on unpacking. And, um, this stigma around, um, you know, villains being disabled, whether it's the villain in ant man and the wasp, or, you know, um, gosh, all that's coming up or are Marvel movies right now, like any superhero villain for the most part has either gone through some sort of major trauma or is somehow disabled. And that's why they're awful instead of like, I don't know, people just choosing to be evil. I get that it's not as fun from a storyline perspective, but it really, uh, is really nice to like, it would be really nice to like watch a movie where somebody sucks and it has nothing to do with their mental state. They just suck as a person. Um, I've, I've gotten off on a tangent, but, um, I'll put some links in the show notes about those kinds of things and some of the stuff that Josh and I talked about, um, like the Pentagon footage of aliens or, um, adverse childhood experiences, social determinants of health, um, resources for, if you are struggling right now with your mental health. Um, and then also the link to the fundraiser for the film, uh, pot LA, I can't speak apocryphal. I can speak sometimes, um, that Josh has working on which that you are all again, and I'll put it in the show. Notes is a P O C movie.com. Okay. I think I have rambled enough at you. Um, thank you so much for listening. I really, uh, can't say enough. Um, during this time that I was taking a break, it was really something to get notes from people asking when there would be new episodes, have people check in on me, see how many people were listening to these other episodes that are already up, um, and just really cool. Um, and really made me want to come back to this, you know, sooner rather than later. And I, I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you. Um, Oh, one final thing too, um, is I've been streaming on Twitch. Um, so Twitch, for those of you who don't know is, um, a website mostly for gamers, um, to like play games while other people can watch. Um, and there are all sorts of different interactive things you can do. Some people do podcasts on there. Um, so you know, doing a live episode might be something that we do, um, and things like that where people can chime in, in the chat. Um, and you can kind of have real time interaction with somebody. Um, I've been playing resident evil eight, so resident evil village, um, and it's been really fun to do that and stream that. So I'm going to do more of that. Um, and specifically around horror themed games. So dead by daylight, um, play big, you know, those kinds of things Subnautica, which isn't as much horror, but it's very puzzley, which I can appreciate a lot about too. So, you know, if that's something that you're interested in, I'll put that link in the show notes too, and you can come hang out and watch me stream games, or, you know, talk about spooky things live. Um, and I'd like to start doing more of that kind of interactive stuff with y'all cause it would be really fun, um, really fun. And okay, now I think I've actually yammered at you enough, but please, please, please. Don't forget to check the show notes for all these links and other information that I'll put in there. Um, and if you don't know where to find the show notes, um, it's spooky Scotty, um, dot podbean.com. And again, that link will be, I think, in like the main thing on the podcast. So you should be able to see it anyway. I don't know. Um, it's been a minute since I looked at this stuff, but, um, with, without any further ridiculous, uh, do take care of yourselves, um, please continue to wear your mask. Please continue to take steps to protect yourself and your family and other people. You care about people around you and in your community. Um, this pandemic is not over and it's not going to be over if we start eliminating masks now, uh, um, by any means, so take care of yourselves and I will talk to you next time. You just listened to the spooky sconnie podcast. It's produced every so often by me, Grayson Schultz. The intro outro music is from purple plant. You can find show notes, a rough transcript, and more over at spookysonnie.podbean.com. While you're here, take a minute to rate and subscribe. If you can, you'll help more people see the show by rating and you won't miss a single episode if you subscribe. And that's pretty dope. Feel free to reach out with feedback, spooky stories or episode suggestions at spookysconniepodcast@gmail.com in the meantime, sleep tight and don't let the badgers bite.

Image source Check out This Podcast Will Kill You's TB episode Script Tuberculosis is a chronic bacterial infection, that passes through the air, and attacks the lungs (sometimes, it will attack other internal organs, as well). Patients with an "active" form of tuberculosis, may feel: weak, loss of appetite, fever, chest pains, night sweats, a persistent cough and may even cough up blood. It is possible to be a carrier for the bacteria without displaying symptoms (asymptomatic carrier).   TB in WI   By the late 1870s, concerns that cases of tuberculosis, often referred to as consumption, were increasing in Wisconsin were expressed.  Physicians identified the need to gather information about the number of cases, their locations, patient ages, and fatalities, in order to better understand the effects of the disease in Wisconsin.  The information could then be used to help determine how to reduce the spread of infection and to develop viable treatments.   The cause of tuberculosis was unknown until 1882, and speculation regarding the possible causes of the disease was widespread.  Reports were intermixed with discussions of supposed sources including “soil moisture,” “climate change” and “insufficient clothing.”  A large component of health professionals strongly believed the origin to be genetic. In 1882, when Robert Koch discovered that the cause of tuberculosis was a bacteria called tubercle bacillus, the medical community could finally begin to address controlling the spread of the disease based on limiting exposure to contamination.  However, not everyone was convinced by Koch’s work, and even those who endorsed it included individuals who felt it unwise to accept the bacteria as the only source of the disease.  Also, no treatment was known.  Therefore, movements to develop appropriate treatments based on the bacterial nature of the disease were not pursued in earnest immediately. The Wisconsin State Board of Health continued to support treatment through “purity of air and removal from all special causes of irritation to the lungs... and the general upbuilding of the system by nutritious diet, with relief from overwork and from depressing anxieties...”   The first statistical report on the prevalence of tuberculosis in Wisconsin was presented in 1894 stating: For the year ending September 30, 1893, according to the reports received from 593 localities in the state 622 deaths occurred from Consumption; and for the year ending September 30, 1894, from 648 localities 903 deaths are reported.  It is impossible to estimate the exact number of death that occur from this disease in the state at the present time.  Statistics in relation to these are of the most vital importance as it is now recognized that this is one of the preventable diseases with which we have to contend.   Collection of additional statistics, as well as intense advocacy efforts made by individuals and organizations, eventually led, in 1902, to the Wisconsin State Board of Health recommending the establishment of a state sanatorium for the care and treatment of patients with tuberculosis.7  In 1904, the Milwaukee county committee on tuberculosis was organized to “...address the question of the establishment of sanatoria for the treatment of consumption...” and to organize a campaign for the education of the public regarding the contagiousness of the disease and of the curability of consumption in the early stages.   Reports were prepared and, by 1908, there were three small sanatoriums in Wisconsin accommodating a total of 100 patients.  The oldest was River Pines, a private hospital that opened in August 1906, located on the Wisconsin River near Stevens Point.  The second to open was Blue Mound, located on the outskirts of Milwaukee, which operated as a philanthropic institution.  The third placed into operation was the publicly owned and operated Wisconsin State Sanatorium, near Wales (see Figure 2-1).  The three all struggled to remain stable financially, and operated at maximum capacity at all times.  They mainly provided care for incipient cases, and there was an acute need for isolation of advanced cases to help halt the spread of infection.  Also, many more patient beds were required.  Advocates developed a plan to address the need by establishing a system of county sanatoriums.  An enabling act was necessary for counties to set up the facilities, and a bill was developed and presented to the 1911 Legislature “permitting counties to build and operate county sanatoriums for the care of advanced cases.”  The bill was signed into law by Governor Francis E. McGovern on 27 June 1911 as Chapter 457 of the statutes.  The establishment of the Wisconsin county system for treating tuberculosis patients was unique compared to most states.  As a result, the majority of Wisconsin’s sanatorium facilities were built utilizing county funds and operated by the counties with only minor financial aid from the state.   The quick construction of the Greenfield hospital in Milwaukee, was based on rushed planning and design, resulting in errors that impacted the ability of the facility to function properly.  As a result, in September 1911, the Wisconsin Anti-Tuberculosis Association’s publication, The Crusader, published a report outlining a planning approach and architectural design for a model county sanatorium.  “So well thought out was the design that it was adopted at once by several county boards contemplating sanatorium construction. Indeed, most of the 17 county sanatoriums opened in the next 19 years were built essentially on this plan.”   The importance of implementing the county system in Wisconsin was underscored with the onset of the Great Depression.  As unemployment and homelessness rose, ideal conditions for spreading tuberculosis escalated.  Wisconsin’s established sanatoriums played a major role in caring for those struck by the disease.  The Wisconsin Anti-Tuberculosis Association published posters and brochures providing information about the services provided at the sanatoria.   Efforts of the Madison Tuberculosis Association   Beginning in 1907, a small group of men began to work toward the eradication of tuberculosis in Madison and the surrounding area.  The group formed the Madison Tuberculosis Association (MTA) in 1908 and established a campaign of public education and a survey of the prevalence of the disease in the area.  About two hundred cases were identified.  Members of the MTA developed a plan for a tuberculosis sanatorium focused on curing and preventing the disease in Madison.  Philanthropist Dr. Charles H. Vilas contributed the funds to purchase land and erect buildings for the Morningside Sanatorium, which served as the only facility of its kind in Dane County until Lake View Sanatorium was opened in 1930. Soon after its establishment, Morningside Sanatorium was unable to serve the quantity of tuberculosis patients in Dane County.  A campaign ensued to develop support for the development of a larger sanatorium to serve the county.  Finally, in 1928, the Dane County Board committed to construct a tuberculosis sanatorium with one hundred beds to serve the community.   Location & Construction of Lake View Sanatorium   In order to determine the design and location of the facility, a building committee was appointed.  Their first task was to choose a site for the Dane County sanatorium.  Once selected, the choice of the property in the town of Westport was unanimously endorsed.  This property had many desirable attributes including its location in the center of the county, proximity to Madison to make staffing easier, and the aesthetically appealing characteristics of the site.  In fact, according to the 1940 annual report, the site was unequalled from an aesthetic standpoint.   The high land on which the Sanatorium stands not only provides the best atmospheric conditions available, but presents a beautiful view, almost unsurpassed in the state of Wisconsin.  From these premises the eye may wander from the wooded hills in the west, over almost all of Lake Mendota to the University buildings, to the dome of the Capitol which always presents itself above the skyline of Maple Bluff, to the city of Madison straight to the south, and, more to the east, a typical Wisconsin pastoral landscape.  It is said that John Muir, the naturalist, in walking from Madison to Portage, paused on this hill to feast his eyes on this superb vista which he believed his last view of Madison.   The property was purchased from Henry Harbort (or Harbour) by Dane County in 1929.17  The original appropriation of $250,000 for construction had to be expanded by an additional $225,000 to complete the project.  The construction firm of J. P. Cullen & Sons, Inc., was hired to construct the facility.  Figures 2-4 through 2-6 include images of the building under construction.  When the building opened in 1930, it was “undoubtedly, at that time, the leading structure for the treatment of tuberculosis in the Middle West.” The facility included every modern convenience and equipment for the operation of the Sanatorium and for the medical and surgical care of the patients. The main building was completed and ready for occupancy on 1 June 1930. The first patient was admitted the evening before, 31 May 1930.  The first power plant on the property was completed the same year.   The name Lake View was selected because of the view one can command from its premises.  The ground floor of the sanatorium is on a level with the roof of the State Capitol and has an elevation of 150 feet above the surrounding countryside.   Although Morningside Sanatorium continued to operate in Madison, Lake View also admitted children when it first opened.  During the 1941-42 fiscal year the determination was made to cease treating children at Lake View.  The children’s rooms were converted to be used for adult patients.   Because the treatment of tuberculosis has changed considerably since the time the institution was erected, numerous changes within the physical structure of the building have taken place.  The ground floor originally had a large play room for children, and the porches on the third and fourth floors did not have roofs.  The roofs were added at a later date when sun treatment was no longer used.   From a review of the new facility by the first superintendent, Dr. W. C. Reineking:   When the Superintendent and Medical Director took charge of the institution in the Spring of 1930, he found a splendid up-to-date building, very effectively planned, and embracing all modern features for the care and treatment of tuberculous patients.  Those responsible for the selection of the site not only chose wisely from a practical point of view, but located the san. In the most beautiful and delightful spot that could possibly have been obtained.  From the point of view of the patients, the elevation, the outlook over Lake Mendota, and the immediate surrounds are ideal and conducive to recovery.  The hospital building not only has a very desirable abundance of floor space for each patient, including ample porches for the majority of the patients, but also an exposure to light, air and sunshine that permits each patient to receive the maximum of these valuable necessities for recovery   The builders also made liberal provision for every form of treatment known to medical science; good examining and treatment rooms, a well planned and equipped operating room, solariums and lamp rooms, facilities for direct sunlight treatment, children’s play room and school room, occupational therapy department, and the finest and most up-to-date X-ray installation obtainable.  Also a laboratory, treatment rooms, and everything that the most exacting physician might desire are provided.   The arrangement of having an available porch connecting with almost every room so that patients’ beds might be moved in or out, is a feature enjoyed by very few sanatoria, and is a large factor in the recovery of patients. In short, the location, well planned building and fine equipment, should place Lake View Sanatorium in the front rank, not only in Wisconsin, but in the whole middle west.   The medical approach to treating tuberculosis at the time included extensive bed rest, exposure to fresh air and sunshine, and a diet consisting of plenty of meat, fresh fruits, vegetables, and dairy products.  Patients joked about growing fat at the Sanatorium, and in fact, it was a goal of the facility to increase the weight of many of the patients, who had grown emaciated from the effects of the disease.  Former patients commented on the very good quality and large quantity of food offered to patients at the Sanatorium.   The emphasis on fresh air and sunshine meant that the building site, design, and surrounding landscape were considered vital factors in the recovery of patients.  Throughout Wisconsin (and the United States) the movement focused on the treatment of tuberculosis applied a similar approach to emphasizing the location and design of sanatoria to maximize exposure to fresh air and sunshine.   By 1933, several cost-saving techniques had been initiated, including growing a garden to offset the cost of fresh produce, and operating a dairy plant to bottle and pasteurize milk at the facility.  The locations of the garden and other site features are illustrated in a sketch maps prepared for the patient newsletter, provided herein as Figures 2-10 and 2-11.  Revenues for the year ending in 1933, included produce grown in the institution’s garden and consumed at the Sanatorium, saving thirteen percent of the overall cost for food, or a total of $125.00.  In addition to providing food for the patients, the garden was a source of interest and pride to those housed at the institution.  The patient newsletter referred to the garden, and other landscape-related activities often. This was a common practice, not only at TB sanitoria but asylums and other isolated patient spaces - especially if there were concerns around disease transmission. Some sanitoria were completely self-sufficient.   By the end of 1933, the facility had 105 beds for patients that were filled at all times, and a consistent waiting list of ten to thirty patients.  These patients were crowded into the space intended for seventy-five patients, so conditions were by no means ideal.  The institution continued to operate at, or above, maximum capacity and administrators made a strong case for the allocation of funds to construct an employee’s dormitory.   The Dormitory for Help (also referred to as the Nurses’ Dormitory, or simply the Dormitory) was completed in 1934 and staff were housed in it from that point forward.  Removal of staff from the main Sanatorium opened up space for patients, and the patient bed capacity rose from 100 to 140 during the 1934-1935 fiscal year.  Each bed was immediately occupied as it was made available.  To accommodate the construction of the dormitory, the topography on the site was altered.  Most notably a large stone retaining wall was added south of the new building.  In addition, new roads and paths were constructed to provide circulation to the dormitory.   Water features were added to help with healing. South of the dormitory, Sputum Lake (or Sputum Pond) included a small ornamental bridge that crossed it at one end.  The patient newsletter records the construction of the pond in 1939, and the origin of the name “Sputum Lake.”  Apparently, the patients were curious about the construction activities and watched closely as the pond was constructed.  They joked that it would be filled with sputum, and named it “Sputum Lake.”  The name persisted and appears on several sketches of the property that were drawn during the period of significance.   Several other additions were made to the property in 1939.  The access road was rebuilt and a fence was installed at the eastern property line.  An area for raising hogs was established by fencing several acres of land on the north border of the property, and a herd of hogs was developed as a kitchen waste disposal system.  A chicken coop was also present on the property, providing fresh eggs for the institution.32  The presence of beehives, outbuildings, and fences in a sketch first printed in 1948 (see Figures 2-10 and 2-11) illuminates further the use of the landscape to help supplement the operations at the Sanatorium.  In addition, the northern portion of the property was used for disposing various kinds of refuse, from broken crockery to power house coal slag, old bricks, concrete, bottles, etc.  It appears that the path used to access the hog enclosure in the woods was once surfaced with slag, and a slag heap is located between the dormitory and Sputum Pond/Lake on the southern portion of the property.  Given the possible expense of removing these items from the site, it may have been yet another cost-saving approach to utilize the property landscape to dispose of selected materials.   A stone quarry existed to the west of the Sanatorium property during the period of significance (see Figures 2-10 and 2-11).  Oral history accounts include references to a bedrock cave system that may underlie the property.  Lake View hill is situated on an isolated bedrock knob of Ordovician Prairie du Chien dolomite underlain by sandstone.  Although it is possible that there are some enlarged fractures in the knob, it is not possible that an extensive cave system exists in this location as a cave would not form in the underlying and surrounding sandstone bedrock (Cambrian Jordan Formation).   Within a year of the opening of the dormitory, the superintendent was urging the county to improve the reliability of the supply of electricity and water at the institution.  The improved water supply was accomplished with the installation of a 300 foot deep well, elevated reserve water tank and water utility building in 1938.  By 1940 a new pumphouse was constructed.  The original power generator for the facility, constructed at the same time as the main Sanatorium building in 1929-30, did not include a back-up system.  When the boilers were turned off for maintenance or repairs, the electricity and heat at the facility would be interrupted.  This was especially problematic if operations were occurring, and the need for an emergency power plant was repeated often.   Daily schedules for patients included outdoor exercise prescribed based on the level of wellness reached.  An example from one guidebook explains: Exercise is not prescribed for indulgence nor as a special reward.  It is an essential part of your treatment and must be taken as such.  All exercise should be taken at a slow, leisurely rate; violent exercise such as running and jumping is injurious to you.  Never let yourself get out of breath or become fatigued unless instructed by the physician to ignore fatigue or breathlessness.  ...Activity will be assigned by number as follows: 1. Strict bed rest:  You may sit up in bed for meals and washing only: reading and letter writing are to be done lying down. Patients eventually built up to bathroom privileges, then meals in the dining room, and finally outdoor exercise was introduced in a phased manner: 7. 15 minutes twice daily of outdoor exercise... 8.30 minutes twice daily of outdoor exercise... 9.45 minutes twice daily of outdoor exercise... 10.1 hour twice daily outdoor exercise... Club and rehabilitation activities, including croquet in the summer, could be substituted as part of the regular outdoor exercise.   In 1948, a residential property adjacent to the Sanatorium, near the maintenance facilities, was purchased to serve as the home of the Associate Medical Director. The addition of this facility enabled the Associate Medical Director and his family to live together in very close proximity to the institution. Sometime during the later years of the operation of the Sanatorium, a superintendent constructed an ice skating rink for his daughters in the woods near the water tower. The rink was constructed by “leveling an oval area on top of the hill and using soils from the inside of the oval to create berms surrounding the rink.” The area was mown and kept clear until the 1980s, when woodland species began to encroach upon it. A 1997 survey identified the feature as a possible burial site or native American earthwork however, the 2008 archeological survey determined that it was constructed recently.   Downhill   Throughout the years of operation of the Lake View Sanatorium, changes were made to embrace newer treatment regimes and improve the success of patient treatment.  By 1953, Lake View Sanatorium began to see a steady decline in patients.  For the first time since its establishment, the institution housed significantly fewer patients than its available capacity.  Only 95 of the 140 beds were occupied on a regular basis throughout the year.  The stand-by electrical plant was finally completed during the year—providing a back-up source of power for emergencies.  The hog farm was disbanded in 1955, due to increasing difficulty in marketing the garbage-fed livestock, and the need to conform to city of Madison regulations (the property was annexed into the city of Madison ca. 1953).   In 1956 the number of occupied beds at the facility had dwindled to 60.  This number rose the following year when the State Sanatorium (in Milwaukee) closed and the patients were moved to Lake View.  In 1958 the fourth floor of the Sanatorium was converted into a general hospital, the first “Dane County General Hospital.”  The facility was used for bed-ridden patients who needed extra medical attention.48  By 1961 it appears that the facility was again accepting children as patients.  A tutoring program was expanded to assist the children who were missing school while at the Sanatorium.49  For the next several years, the issue of whether or not to close the Sanatorium and Hospital was debated, as the number of patients continued to decrease.  Concerns about an increase in the number of tuberculosis cases in rural areas were expressed; if the sanatorium closed, the patients would need to be transferred to facilities where they could contaminate other patients.  It was determined that Dane County could find another use for the main building, and plans were put in place to close the hospital (in January 1965) and the Sanatorium (in 1966).   When the Sanatorium was closed in 1966, the administration of the property was shifted to the Dane County Department of Health and Human Services, Department of Public Works, and Dane County Parks.51    Since that time, the main Sanatorium building has been used by the Department of Health and Human Services for administrative offices.   In 1991, the northern 22.5 acres of the site were designated as the Lake View Woods nature conservancy to preserve one of the last hilltops in Madison from development.  The Dane County Parks and Open Space Plan was amended in 1993 to include the southern portion of the Lake View property as an urban greenspace. Also in 1993, the 46 acre Lake View Sanatorium property was listed in the National Register of Historic Places for its significance related to the treatment of tuberculosis in Dane County.   The Dane County Board amended the 2001-2005 Parks and Open Space Plan to include Lake View Hill as a recreation park in 2004 and the park was placed under the jurisdiction of the Dane County Parks Commission in 2005.  Also in 2005, 2.34 acres of the Esch family property was donated to Dane County Parks Commission as an addition to the park.   One person shared the following anecdote: "My family owned the farm where the sanitarium [sic] is now. My great great grandfather was a farmer and shot him self on the land. I found the old farmer sighting interesting, as it was probably him. My grandmother is also buried in the cemetery along with all my relatives who came here from Germany. All this land was the Sachtjen farm for a long time. They also built the little church." While I can't fully substantiate this based on research, the family owned several farms in the area. The sanitorium is 1.3 miles away from a house built in 1852 on one of the family's farms, still-standing at 2215 N Sherman Ave.   Spooky Things   While the main building is imposing in its vintage horror visage, it is the woods behind it and the small graveyard to the west of the old Sanitarium that have the strongest reputation for paranormal activity. Reports of cold and hot spots, apparitions, strange lights, odd mists, and physical manifestations—such as being touched by phantom hands—are common on the trails woven throughout the tree-enshrouded Lake View Park, and in the nearby graveyard.   People who've walked through here report hearing voices - especially low-toned voices - and some say they've captured recordings. These range from random noises that are hard to make out to cries for help or being told to get out of there. There are also feelings of being stalked, slapped, having their hair pulled, seeing red eyes (although that could potentially be explained away by animals) and other unexplained occurrences.   While it was demolished in recent years from what I can tell, the abandoned dormitory building was a source of much spookiness. Many windows were missing and it was clearly out of use... Still, there were often lights left on and red-lit exit signs that add to the eerie feeling of the building. Many visitors reported an apparition at the door to this building.   In the woods there is also the ruins of what is rumored to be a crematorium, and a large depression over the spot that used to be an underground tunnel that housed the dead, due to the fact that they could only cremate the bodies once a week so as not to constantly diminish the air quality for the patients. Others believe they stumble across some old foundation to a torn down building - something they assume must have been nefarious - but this is likely the retaining wall built on the property during sanitorium days.   Paranormal belief aside, the grounds are a lovely example of Madison’s dedication to natural spaces, and perfect for a pleasant stroll. Dogs are allowed in the park, but must remain on-leash. As winter approaches, too, this is a major sledding hill so check that out if you're a sledder. Keep in mind, though, that the park closes at 10 pm and, due to housing some state services in the old building, is subject to routine visits from police.   If you're lucky, you might even see Sandhill Cranes as you pass by or walk through the park.   Dane County Parks 2011 report - https://www.danecountyparks.com/documents/PDFs/plans/LakeView-Draft-Historic-Landscape-Evaluation.pdf https://parks-lwrd.countyofdane.com/park/LakeViewHill https://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM119011  

Photo source Content note: murder, police brutality With everything going on, I wanted to cover a murder-by-cop from 2015 that happened here in Madison. Tony Robinson was murdered by Madison PD Officer Matt Kenny - who murdered once before and is still on the force. I lose my voice a little towards the end of this episode because it's a long one (that and I used my slightly-deeper-from-testosterone voice). Please listen with an open mind and without judgment going in. There are resources below about racism, police brutality, and more. If you want to sign the petition to get Matt Kenny fired, you can do so here. Episode sources https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/13/tony-terrell-robinson-madison-wisconsin-police-shooting-how-it-happened https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/us/man-shot-dead-by-police-after-scuffle-in-wisconsin.html https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime/more-than-three-years-after-tony-robinson-shooting-wheels-of-police-reform-turn-slowly/article_c9da662d-cd05-58ba-aab6-9fda64cd6c04.html https://isthmus.com/opinion/opinion/another-tragic-police-shooting/ https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime-and-courts/madison-police-chief-mike-koval-announces-immediate-retirement/article_87d97d61-c030-579f-8175-550c6b86b515.html  https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime-and-courts/madison-mayor-eyes-mental-health-ambulance-condemns-police-response-to/article_29286e59-c57c-5cc1-96a2-918bcad88578.html https://wkow.com/2020/06/07/madison-police-chief-responds-to-emails-about-8-cant-wait-campaign/ https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/milwaukee/2017/02/23/family-tony-robinson-man-shot-madison-police-receive-335-million-lawyers-say/98292352/ https://isthmus.com/news/news/tony-robinson-attorneys-release-lawsuit-documents/ https://isthmus.com/news/news/for-tony-robinsons-mom-life-and-grief-endure/ https://isthmus.com/news/news/tony-robinsons-mother-is-moving-to-california/ https://isthmus.com/news/news/this-is-not-a-riot/ https://isthmus.com/news/news/wake-up-madison/ PS: right after I posted this, our mayor posted a thank you to police showing she lied through her teeth. Resources Required reading on anti-racism, white privilege, and being an ally: https://www.vox.com/2016/7/11/12136140/black-all-lives-matter https://www.driep.org/anti-racism-training https://theinfophile.substack.com/p/volume-1-resources-9-anti-racist https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Xa9Av-NfuFsWBHlsMvPiqJHdNedZgnCRW56qAS-7PGQ/mobilebasic?fbclid=IwAR2FbHsiBgfZildRNI6TFCzOmSge--F4Oqqg993T0EosX2F5lFz9cAL7BVw https://wearyourvoicemag.com/radicalizing-your-family-against-white-supremacy https://insidethekandidish.wordpress.com/2020/05/30/dear-white-people-this-is-what-we-want-you-to-do/ https://forge.medium.com/performative-allyship-is-deadly-c900645d9f1f https://www.facebook.com/allyhennypage/posts/1554771434673161 https://www.them.us/story/halsey-white-passing Reading more https://www.haymarketbooks.org/blogs/65-haymarket-books-on-the-struggle-for-black-liberation  https://www.facebook.com/dane.edidi/posts/10101004480001033 https://www.facebook.com/kirbir/posts/10100704327214994 https://www.facebook.com/johannjacob.vanniekerk/posts/4047521888655072 On defunding and abolishing police - and their qualified immunity: https://www.autostraddle.com/how-to-never-call-the-cops-again-a-guide-with-a-few-alternatives-to-calling-police/ https://www.autostraddle.com/police-and-prison-abolition-101-a-syllabus-and-faq http://maltajusticeinitiative.org/12-major-corporations-benefiting-from-the-prison-industrial-complex-2/ https://www.8toabolition.com/ https://electricliterature.com/10-nonfiction-books-on-why-we-need-to-defund-the-police/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km4uCOAzrbM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY How to support black folx: https://www.redbubble.com/people/ashleenychee44/shop https://www.consciousrootsllc.com/conscious-roots-radio https://www.autostraddle.com/support-black-community-with-your-money-a-living-index-of-local-mutual-aid-efforts/ https://www.facebook.com/kirbir/posts/10100702916462154 FB group:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/spookysconnie   Rough transcript (will update when able):   Today's case is one of the most upsetting cases of cops murdering black men in recent Wisconsin history.   Williamson Street, on the east side of Madison, is affectionately known to its diverse residents as “Willy Street”. It is lined with an array of progressive shopfronts: vegan cafes, a co-operative grocery store and a social justice center. On March 6, 2015, 18-year-old Javier - one of Tony's two roommates - called the police. The other roommate was not home. Javier had just left home to go to a basketball game and Tony chased the car down the street. He was acting erratically and Javier made sure to tell them that he was unarmed and not violent, but did need assistance.  Earlier in the day Robinson had been out with a small group and had eaten magic mushrooms, according to a friend who was present at the time. The friend, who had known Robinson for five years, said Robinson was inexperienced with hallucinogens and had consumed a large quantity. “He had no clue what he was in for. Realistically, he needed someone to sit him down and tell him that everything was OK,” the friend said.  Robinson returned to Willy Street at around 5 pm after playing on the ice at Governor’s Island. Following Javier's departure, Tony allegedly went across the street and punched someone.  At around 6.30pm, Madison police officer Matt Kenny forced entry into the house - at 1125 Willy St - after apparently hearing a “disturbance” inside the apartment and forced entry. No one else was present in the apartment at that time, raising questions about the nature of the disturbance heard before entry was forced.    The Police said Robinson was acting violently, and had knocked Kenny to the ground. Kenny then shot Tony. Kenny is said to have suffered a concussion and a sprained knee from the assault.  The dispatch audio indicates just 18 seconds elapsed in the time between his arrival and shots being heard. Police Chief Koval described the scuffle between the officer and the man as “mutual combat.”   Marshall Erb, a 27-year-old insurance worker who lives in the apartment next door, rushed to the window after he heard the shots. He told the Guardian that “gurgling and choking” noises could be heard, but he couldn’t see from where.   Olga Ennis, a 43-year-old neighbor from across the street, says she saw officer Kenny and another officer dragging the limp, bloody body of the biracial 19-year-old out on to the porch. "I watched them drag him out like a piece of garbage,” she said. Other said cops were standing around Tony, but not acting with any immediacy. Kenny claimed that he performed CPR on Robinson, and Robinson was taken to a hospital but later died. However, Ennis disputes that - “He was put on a gurney and he was lifeless,” she said. “He died at the house. He didn’t die at the hospital.”   “He was in a place in his head that no one else in the world, in the universe could have understood but him,” said the friend, who still seemed traumatised by the events. “You have one person [Robinson] who was so fucking gone, and another man [Kenny] who was trained and capable of reason. And they killed him... He needed help and they just took him.”   Tony's life   “Terrell grew up with no structure,” Turin Carter, his 24-year-old uncle, told the Guardian, explaining that little things such as regular meal times “help mold the child’s identity and help him know right from wrong”.   Tony lived in Stoughton from aged 5 to 9, a suburb to the south of Madison where racism is even more rampant than in Madison proper.  In his early teens, Carter says, Robinson effectively became the man of the house. But the instability and the ordinary angst of adolescence were compounded by changing three different high schools before he graduated from Sun Prairie high school, in another largely white community outside of Madison.   Racism is so rampant in Madison that nearly half of Madison’s black students don't graduate on time. Robinson finished early.   After graduation, Tony ran into one legal issue after having participated in a nonviolent home invasion with four others. When he was murdered, he was on probation but also dedicated to turning things around. He had plans to attend a community college and, someday, move to New York.   “I could not imagine somebody’s death impacting my life more profoundly,” Carter said. “There is something so beautiful about a black kid, especially in America, trying to make it against all odds and fucking up so bad, but then actively trying to better his situation and become a better person. He was so close. He was so close.”   Tony's mother, Andrea Irwin, said  “My son has never been a violent person, and to die in such a violent, violent way, it baffles me. Whatever you believe about my son, he was a human being and he was my son and... he was a brother and a nephew and a grandson,"   Officer Kenny's history   This was not Officer Kenny's first murder. In 2007, Officer Matt Kenny had shot and killed Ronald Brandon, who was standing on the porch of his own home, holding what was later learned was a pellet gun. Kenny is still on the police force. Chief Koval described this murder as 'suicide by cop' as Ronald had called the police to report someone wielding a gun. He then was sat on his porch where he put his pellet gun up to his head, and then pointed it at police. That's when Kenny fired multiple shots and murdered Brandon. The Dane County district attorney ruled the shooting as justified, and the Madison Police Department awarded Officer Kenny its medal of valor.   The aftermath   The Black Lives Matter movement has protested Robinson's death.[11][12][13] Some 1,500 protesters, mostly high school students who had staged a walk-out, filled the state capitol on March 9 to protest Robinson's death, yelling the "Hands up, don't shoot" chant through the capital building.  The Wisconsin Department of Justice investigated the Robinson shooting, as required by Wisconsin law.[15] Robinson's uncle said that the family had faith that the Division of Criminal Investigation will "handle [the investigation] with integrity".  On May 12, 2015, Dane County District Attorney, Ismael Ozanne, announced that Officer Matt Kenny would not face charges for the shooting of Tony Robinson. The shooting was labeled a "lawful use of deadly police force."   Chief Koval said it was “absolutely appropriate” for the protesters to express their feelings, but called for restraint. He consistently was antagonistic in press conferences, not really allowing for any concerns that the police locally had major issues with both racism and overuse of force. In fact, he seemed more worried about how this would reflect on officers at the time and on recruiting. Koval retired suddenly in October 2019, supposedly after pressure from Mayor Satya Rhodes-Conway. Rhodes-Conway has been a staunch advocate for speaking out against police brutality in the past. Quite frankly, I think his words - often combative and dismissive - speak for themselves:  “To the ‘haters,’ thanks to you as well — for through your unrelenting, unforgiving, desire to make the police the brunt of all of your scorn — I drew strength from your pervasive and persistent bullying,” Koval said.   The Robinson family attorneys insist that forensic and video evidence prove that Kenny lied about what happened the night Robinson was killed. In particular, they say that synchronized audio and video from the incident show that Kenny couldn’t have been at the top of the stairs when he began firing. “The audio and video show that Officer Kenny was at the base of the stairs — it doesn’t take a forensic scientist to see that. He couldn’t be at the top of the stairs for the first shot and then be coming out the [bottom] doorway by the second shot,” says Swaminathan. “That means that Officer Kenny’s story about being punched at the top of the stairs and responding with a shot is untrue.” He adds: “The location of the bullet casings are all at the base of the stairs and outside, indicating the shots were fired at the base of the stairs. There is no high-impact blood spatter anywhere above the halfway point of the stairs — that’s strong evidence that there were no shots fired at the top of the stairs.” The family attorneys also fault the police department’s internal investigation, saying it was aimed to clear Kenny. Most specifically, Kenny was never questioned. “This is the main problem with the internal investigation: They asked zero questions. This isn’t a case where they asked some questions but didn’t ask other questions,” says Swaminathan. “They asked zero questions of an officer whose story at even first glance, was problematic. That’s a broken internal investigation process.”   In February, 2017, Robinson's family accepted a $3.35 million settlement from the city, to settle a civil rights lawsuit. Of course, the city would not admit guilt.   The family's legal team had placed evidence on a website, now defunct, to share with the public. Jim Palmer, executive director of the Wisconsin Professional Police Association,says he wishes 1) that the family didn't do this and 2) that the case had gone to trial. “We find it difficult to reconcile the Robinson family’s efforts to try their case in the court of public opinion, after they chose to settle the case and stay out of a court of law,” he says. “If they felt as confident about their claims as they suggest, we would have preferred they hadn’t agreed to a settlement. Which was a choice that Matt Kenny did not have. Matt Kenny would have preferred a trial and the opportunity to clear his name again.” In a later statement, Chief Koval said that he cannot respond to specific arguments raised by Robinson’s lawyers. “We cannot comment on a one-sided version of facts that will never be subjected to the cross-examination afforded by a trial,” Koval says. “To suggest that you have ‘new’ evidence supplied by experts paid by the plaintiffs should be considered in the context from which it is proffered.” Kemble says she wants a new internal investigation so that Kenny will be “interviewed directly” and questioned “on the discrepancies between his story and the forensic and scientific evidence. Those are important questions that should be answered.” Formerly a case manager for a transitional living service working with children, Ton'y mother says she lost her job due to the time she had to take off after her son was killed. She also was forced to move. A local TV station posted audio from a 911 call she made last January when she feared Tony was suicidal. The call included her address and phone number, which were broadcast. “People would bang on my patio door at night and throw all kinds of stuff at my house,” she says. “I couldn’t sleep. I was scared I couldn’t get to my kids if something happened. So, we got out of there.” Her second-oldest son now lives in Canada with Irwin’s brother. “I didn’t want him here. I’m very afraid for either of my boys to have an encounter with any police officer in the city because I don’t know what’s going to happen,” she says. “He can create his own friendships there and not have people know everything that’s going on in his life. He’s not gone for good, but he needed to go to grieve.” In all, the $18,000 collected from the online campaign, “every ounce of it went to his funeral,” she says. “I had $10,000 in savings that’s all gone now. We haven’t even gotten him a headstone for his gravesite yet because we can’t afford it.” Irwin’s also leery of getting a headstone because the gravesite has been vandalized. “They keep stealing things from it, and someone drove over his grave,” she says. “We’ve tried to keep it secret where he was buried because there are so many people against us.” Andrea recently got married and moved to California to escape the pain Madison caused and continues to cause her.   What has changed?   Despite Rhodes-Conway being against police brutality, she has lied to protesters in saying she can't affect change to measures like curfews that have been set recently.    Acting Police Chief Victor Wahl has released a statement in response to the #8CantWait campaign nationally:  Ban Chokeholds & Strangleholds – MPD does not, nor has it ever, trained officers in chokeholds, strangleholds or any other similar techniques.  MPD policy specifically prohibits use of these techniques unless deadly force is justified. Require De-Escalation – MPD has implemented a policy on de-escalation that requires the use of de-escalation techniques (such as time, distance, communication, etc.) when feasible.  All officers were trained in de-escalation when the policy was implemented.  New officers are trained in de-escalation and the principle is incorporated into many aspects of officer training (professional communication, tactical response, etc.). Require Warning Before Shooting – MPD policy requires that "Before using deadly force, officers shall, if reasonably possible, identify themselves and order the subject to desist from unlawful activity."  This requirement is reinforced in officer training. Require Exhausting all Alternatives Before Shooting – MPD policy clearly states that deadly force is "a measure of last resort, only to be employed when an officer reasonably believes all other options have been exhausted or would be ineffective."  This principle is emphasized in officer training. Duty to Intervene – MPD policy and Code of Conduct states, "Any officer present and observing another officer using excessive force, or engaged in unlawful conduct, or in violation of the Madison Police Department's Code of Conduct has an affirmative obligation to intercede and report." Ban Shooting at Moving Vehicles – MPD policy states that shooting at a moving vehicles is never authorized unless: a person in the vehicle is threatening the officer or another person with deadly force by means other than the vehicle; or the vehicle is being operated in a manner that reasonably appears deliberately intended to strike an officer or other person, and all other reasonable means of defense have been exhausted (or are not present or practical). Require Comprehensive Reporting – MPD policy requires that any officer who uses physical force, weapons, items, or devices against a person shall complete an original or supplemental report on the incident. This includes pointing a firearm at an individual. Additionally, officers who use "recordable" force must contact a supervisor to review the use of force and enter information about the incident into an internal database.  Each use of recordable force is reviewed by the MPD Use of Force Coordinator, and certain levels of force require an initial on-scene supervisory response/review. Require Use of Force Continuum – The "8cantwait" initiative defines this as restricting "the most severe types of force to the most extreme situations" and "creating clear policy restrictions on the use of each police weapon and tactic."  MPD policy and training are consistent with this.  Deadly force is clearly restricted to extreme situations, and the use of specific tools/techniques is specifically restricted in policy.  MPD officers are trained in a manner consistent with the State of Wisconsin's Defensive and Arrest Tactics (DAAT) curriculum (as required by the State).  The DAAT system incorporates an intervention options matrix, with restrictions on specific techniques. It's important to note that the 8 Can't Wait campaign is NOT endorsed by most black folx, especially black women who have been leading the BLM cause. The following is an update from black organizers: "While communities across the country mourn the loss of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Tony McDade, Jamel Floyd, and so many more Black victims of police murder, Campaign Zero released its 8 Can’t Wait campaign, offering a set of eight reforms they claim would reduce police killings by 72%. As police and prison abolitionists, we believe that this campaign is dangerous and irresponsible, offering a slate of reforms that have already been tried and failed, that mislead a public newly invigorated to the possibilities of police and prison abolition, and that do not reflect the needs of criminalized communities. We honor the work of abolitionists who have come before us, and those who organize now. A better world is possible. We refuse to allow the blatant co-optation of decades of abolitionist organizing toward reformist ends that erases the work of Black feminist theorists. As the abolitionist organization Critical Resistance recently noted, 8 Can’t Wait will merely “improve policing’s war on us.” Additionally, many abolitionists have already debunked the 8 Can’t Wait campaign’s claims, assumptions, and faulty science. Abolition can’t wait." A protest organized by Freedom Inc, Urban Triage, and the Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL) started off the protests here in Madison. Sawyer Johnson with recently stated at the first protest that  “We have a white queer mayor...as a fellow white queer person, I got to have a conversation with her. We refuse to denounce any black, youth leader that is continuing to lead the rebellion. Because that’s what it is. We care more about black lives than Urban Outfitters getting tagged. It is clear to us that Madison’s liberalism only masks the true white supremacy nature of capitalism. Not only does Matt Kenny still have his job, he’s training [police] on meditation.”  The founder of Urban Triage,  Brandi Grayson, said earlier this week: “Some of us are upset at the looting. I get it. Some of us are upset about the property. I get it. But nobody is offering solutions or policy change...What was offered? Tear gas, More people showed up and donated to businesses, who have insurance, than donated to the cause. If you are really about black liberation, we need you to put your money where your mouth is.”  She also says several years of leading peaceful protests over the police shooting of 19-year-old Tony Robinson, along with efforts to stop the construction of a new Dane County jail and remove police from schools, have given black youth the tools to create something new.  “[These protests] really were spontaneous and led by the youth. They have been paying attention to the organized protests that happened during the day [after Floyd’s death]. And you can see them using the same tools and strategies we use to direct the crowd and refocus the crowd. It’s powerful as hell,” says Grayson. “It’s like the youth is just waiting to be led. They just needed an example. They just needed a model and they are doing it.”  “This is the greatest revolution since MLK was assassinated,” declared a young man on the mic at one protest. “Think about that. This is in every state.... This is international.” They're right! All 50 states in addition to 18 countries have participated in BLM marches.  Aaliyah Grey, a 15-year-old Madison high school student, says she feels an obligation to her father.  “I'm scared that he’s gonna walk out the house, the police are gonna think he did something wrong, and he's gonna get shot,” says Grey, who marched in the rain June 2 at a protest that ended without any violence downtown. “That's why I'm out here. I'm out here for him. I’m out here so my little sister will not have to grow up without a father.” Arrieonna Cargel, another black teenager from Madison, says it feels like “people don't understand our pain and the struggles.” “I’m here to end police brutality,” says Cargel. “I’m willing to risk my life for people who have lost theirs.”  Tamaya Travis says the killing of Floyd is just the latest “horrific example” of injustice and indignities felt routinely by black youth in America.  “We shouldn't be scared to go out in public. We can't hang out in groups because they think we're a gang. We shouldn't be scared to get pulled over,” says Travis, a black high school student from Madison. “We shouldn't be scared to talk to the police when we need something. But we're terrified because every time we do, our lives might be in danger. Because even three simple words — ‘I can't breathe’ — is not respected.” Jay, an 18-year-old graduate of Madison Memorial, says he’s come out to protest at night to “finally see something positive happen. Black people are the most hated people alive. We have been for hundreds of years. Wouldn’t you be mad if you were me?” asks Jay. “There's a reason why we feel like this. There's a reason why we're upset. Our entire lives we have grown up at a disadvantage. There's no such thing as a peaceful protest. You don't get nothing out of that. We've been doing that for 60 years or longer and barely anything has changed,” he adds. “Barely anybody is hearing our voice. Barely anybody is coming up and speaking out on the fuckery that's going on all the time.” The youth organizers use call and response chants to stop fights, weed out troublemakers, and prevent crowd panic. “Don’t start no shit, won’t be no shit” and “stay together” are common refrains if there’s a whiff of trouble. The method has stopped violent behavior without a single cop in sight. The protests also feature drills in case police try to break up the protest or bad actors try to infiltrate. One of these methods is asking white allies to form a human chain around protesters of color. “We aren’t asking you to take a bullet for us,” said one of the black organizers over the sound system while directing white protesters. “We just know that the police won’t shoot you...we are all on the same side.”  Stacii and a few friends, who have attended several of the late-night protests, show up with tennis rackets to “swat tear gas canisters” if needed.  “As a white ally, I am there to listen but to be ready to put my body between the police and people of color who are peacefully protesting,” Stacii tells Isthmus. “Having protective gear is vital just in case.” A white man, who looks about 20 years older than most of the people in the crowd, walks around with a cart full of snacks.  “There are supply houses across the isthmus. There’s a group, about 100 of us, who communicate covertly to make sure the youth have everything they need. We have a whole medic team, too,” says the man. “Our job is support, stay out of the way.”    After a number of days and night launching tear gas - which, btw, violates the Geneva Convention - in addition to flash grenades and projectiles at protesters, things have quieted down. Mayor Satya Rhodes-Conway, too, has attempted to distinguish the masses of peaceful protesters from small groups that police witnessed June 1 making molotov cocktails, wielding baseball bats, and setting off fireworks near the crowd. She has repeatedly praised several daytime demonstrations organized by Freedom Inc., Urban Triage and the Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL) following the death of Floyd.  But Sawyer Johnson, a member of PSL, rejected the mayor’s support at a June 1 daytime rally, saying the groups side unequivocally with black youth — some of whom may have looted — and consider the criminal activity part of an effort “to lead the rebellion.”  Rhodes-Conway still pleaded in a June 2 statement for the nighttime demonstrations to end. “Please stay home tonight. I welcome protests — particularly in the daytime — but I do not want legitimate protests to continue to provide cover for this violent, unacceptable behavior,” said the mayor. “I understand anger, but there is no excuse for putting lives in danger, and that is what is happening. Again — please stay home tonight, and tomorrow night.” Thankfully, starting June 3, police were invisible downtown — keeping watch of the protest from surveillance cameras and through dark windows in buildings overlooking the demonstrations. Police strike teams continue to stand ready in tactical gear inside the City County Building and at the Capitol but have not been deployed recently.   Ciara says organizers “haven’t put an end date on justice” and the demonstrations will continue until their demands are met. “We demand that Matt Kenny be fired and that the community has control over the police. The community should be in charge of investigating police violence — not other cops. We have no plans on stopping until then.”    What now? I'm here to tell you an uncomfortable truth: all white people are racist. Hear me out - I'm white. I hate knowing that I'm involved in racism. The reality is, though, that I benefit greatly from my porcelain skin in a way that folx who are BIPOC - black and brown and indigenous and people of color - will never experience. Systems are not built to oppress me on the basis of my race. That doesn't mean my life isn't hard - all it means is my skin color isn't part of that difficulty.  Those of us who are white must see that recognizing white privilege doesn't mean we're awful people. As James Baldwin, a noted black queer author, once said, " Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced.." We cannot change the oppressive systems that exist until we see them for what they are. Right now, that means listening to black folx specifically and following their lead. It means that, if we can, we should be out there protecting black folx with our white privilege, lifting up their voices, and supporting them however we can. It also means not tone policing or automatically deciding that rioting isn't from BLM as a movement. The notion of agitators from the outside coming into cities has been used for eons to explain away the momentum that civil rights work has picked up, and we do folx a disservice by believing that lie. Instead, we must recognize that property isn't worth anywhere near as much as human life.  When I call you in or out, either on this pod or in other ways we interact, I do it because I care about you. I'm not alone in this. Those who point out issues? We do it because we want to help you grow and improve. We want you to rise up to where we all should be right now, to be on the right side of humanity and history - and we know you can be. This is especially true when fellow white folx call you out on racism-related issues. We know that you can find your way to anti-racist work. We believe in you because, frankly, we wouldn't be your friends if we didn't. That emotional investment? That's love. If people didn't care, they'd probably just unfriend or block you and move on.   When you're called in or out? Please don't offer false platitudes like thanking folx without following up with action. Be transparent and share the work you're doing to learn and listen so that there is accountability. We all have to do better, and part of that involves holding each other to that. Growth isn't comfortable. It pushes our limits, reminds us we're human, and points out our flaws. It reminds us that we have work to do, and that we actively need to follow through with that work. We can't grow in comfort, though - just like, say, napping for a weekend doesn't produce any change in the world. We still have to meet it, sit with it, and process how to move forward.   In addition to sources for the information in this article, I'm putting in a list of anti-racism resources. Let's work on learning and doing better. If you want to be a part of a group where we can work on that, there's a FB group for this podcast. Come join it and let's work on being anti-racist together.

Check out the following pods and spooky series Buzzfeed Unsolved (find on YouTube, Buzzfeed app, Amazon Prime) Mirths and Monsters Nothing Rhymes with Murder Straight-Up Enigmas Octoberpod Haunted Happenstance 3 Spooked Girls Unsolved, Unexplained Horrifying History Two Scared Siblings Florence Peters   Photo source   So, today's episode is close to home for me - literally. While I've spent nearly all my lockdown time at my partner's apartment in Middleton, our story is set in Westport - a tiny town between the north side of Madison and Waunakee. The apartment I'm in the middle of moving out of just so happens to be there on Westport Road.    Florence Peters and her husband John farmed together in the late 1930s. Their marriage wasn't in great shape. While John hadn't cheated, Florence had engaged in multiple affairs. So, when 23-year-old farmhand Edward Harvey came along in 1938, it didn't take long for the 38-year-old Florence to fall for him.    By July of that year, Florence had also grown tired of John. He was oblivious to the affair, but was cramping the couple's style. She sent Harvey out to the barn to grab some arsenic, something they had around for pest control. He was excited and ready to have Florence all to himself, and picked up the poison without saying a word.   While John was out milking the cows, Florence mixed him a drink. He fell ill that night and was confined to the bed. Meanwhile, Florence tried to play concerned wife. She was there to nurse him back to health, helping him with whatever he needed. One day, he asked her to fix him up a drink to help him feel better. She couldn't help but mix some more arsenic into milk. He got sicker and there were concerns from the townsfolk, especially the police.   See, as much as John hadn't noticed the affair, neither Florence nor Harvey were being discrete at all about their feelings for each other. Police brought Henry in for questioning, but he wasn't cooperative at all. He was released, despite being charged with resisting arrest, if he left the state.   Meanwhile, John had gotten so sick that he was moved to a hospital in Madison. Florence and her children moved to an apartment at 1335 Rutledge Street in Madison to be closer to John. That's only two blocks in from Lake Monona in what is now a pretty on-demand neighborhood. Harvey moved in with them secretly... or not so secretly.   By the end of September, the home was raided and both Florence & Harvey were arrested for committing 'lewd and lascivious' behavior for living together. Harvey explained that the two were engaged to be married once Florence divorced John. Nonetheless, the two were being held in jail.   In the meantime, John's family recalled a similar illness of someone in the community just a few years before. Henry Kessenich fell ill in 1930 in a similar manner. John's family asked the police to revisit the investigation and they performed an exhumation. The state toxicologist at the time, Dr. F.L. Kozelka, indeed found arsenic in the victim's hair roots and tissues.   Henry's wife had apparently wanted a divorce as she had fallen in love with a younger farmhand, but Henry had refused. As fall came on, the wife had gotten poison from the barn and put a small amount in Henry's tea. Within two days, he fell incredibly ill and began vomiting. Henry died quickly thereafter, and his death was attributed to pneumonia. Doctors were interested in doing an autopsy, but the widow didn't want it so they passed. While people in the community clearly were suspicious, there was no further investigation. The wife collected $1000 in life insurance, which would be just over $15k today.   In case you hadn't guessed, this was clearly Florence. Three years after his death, she married John Peters. Between 1933 and 1938, the two had two of their own children in addition to the two children from her marriage to Henry. When investigators met with her and accused her of murdering Henry, she asked "Whoever would think I did that?" She was quickly confronted with the evidence and confessed. Investigators had Florence right where they wanted her and brought up the evidence that she poisoned John, to which she immediately confessed.    Following her confession to the Kessenich poisoning Wednesday, Walstead and Mrs. Guynes interrogated Mrs. Peters to clarify her motive for her action nine years ago. “Why did you give it to him?” Walstead said, grilling her on the motive for the Kessenich poisoning. “Because I wanted to be free, just as I told you, that I wanted to go by myself,” Mrs. Peters said. “Why didn’t you divorce him?” Walstead queried further. "Because he wouldn’t give me a divorce,” she said. “Your married life had been unhappy with him, had it?” Walstead wanted to know. “How much did you put in the tea?” the assistant prosecutor Slim Dick Post, asked her. “Not a quarter of a teaspoonful,” was the answer. “Did you once give it to him more than once?” Walstead continued. “No, sir,” she answered, Walstead said, and went on to tell him that Kessenich became ill the second day.   Shortly thereafter, Florence confessed in court. She pled guilty in front of the judge, speaking in a low and quiet voice. As she began to walk to the witness chair to expand upon her confession, she fainted. The next day, they tried this again. The court asked if Florence had anything to say prior to sentencing. Policewoman M. Pearl Guynes was accompanying Florence; she shared, after whispering with Florence, that she wished for a swift sentence. Judge Roy H. Proctor asked again if it was Florence's intent to plead guilty as the charge from 1930 had been added. She responded in the affirmative. “What is your plea?” Proctor asked, referring to the first-degree murder charge. “Guilty,” was the low answer, and the judge pronounced her guilty. The second charge was read, and the judge again questioned her. “I did poison him,” she said, explaining her actions toward her second husband, Peters, in July, “but he was after me all the time.” “You did not want to do it?” Proctor asked. “No, not until he forced me to,” she said. “But you are guilty?” he persisted. “Yes,” she said, tonelessly, strain evident in her whole bearing.     Proctor began his sentencing: "No good purpose would be served to recount the incidents leading to the discovery of the crime. I am satisfied that you were fully aware of what you were doing. You have committed the most serious of all crimes and it is the duty of the court to impose the penalty set in the statute." While Proctor was in the middle of sentencing Florence to life in prison, she cried out and fainted. Adding to the sentencing, Proctor did drop the lewd and lascivious charges, but did additionally sentence Florence to 1-10 years for poisoning John.   Florence was sent to Taycheedah women's prison. While she was there for her life sentence, due to fainting she thought she was only there for the 1-10 years she was sentenced. Police didn't tell her for some time as they couldn't bear to inform her that she would effectively never see her children again.   By this point, John was doing much better. It's amazing how not having someone actively poison you will do that. He moved into the Rutledge Street apartment, caring for all four children. While he initially promised to care for the two Kessenich children, they were later sent to live with Florence's relatives while John raised his two biological kids. While this sounds kind of bad, Andrew was 17 and Blanche was 11 at this time. They were, thankfully, not very young. Catherine and Billie, John and Florence's biological children, were four years old and 10 months old respectively.   Harvey was awaiting his own trial and pissed about Florence's sentencing. While he pined for her, Florence didn't feel the same. He soon confessed to his part. Due to Florence's prior murder and Harvey's youth, they took pity on him believing that he was harmed more in the process than committing harm. The assistant DA Elliot N. Walstead argued that Harvey should be given leniency. Judge Proctor disagreed, sentencing Harvey to the same 1-10 years as Florence. This was to be served at the Green Bay Reformatory.   Florence was eventually paroled in 1951. She remarried and moved out of the area, being discharged from parole in September of 1969. I wish that I had information about how the rest of their lives went, but I don't. Much about this case was hidden as a family secret until 1985 when the Wisconsin State Journal's Crimes of the Century was published. Combined with relocation and name changes - and the fact that I can't really go digging through the Historical Society stacks and microfilm, thanks to the pandemic - makes it difficult to know what happened to anyone in this case.    References 50 Wisconsin Crimes of the Century http://unknownmisandry.blogspot.com/2011/10/repeat-husband-poisoner-with-14-year.html

Content note: abuse, incest, animal torture, bestiality, sexual assault, murder Photo source Rough transcript (will upload full one later this week) Hello spooky friends! I apologize for the long delay in new episodes. Life has been intense between moving, divorce stuff, and hockey. That's right - ya boy started playing hockey! I've continued the strong Wisconsin tradition of learning how to do a tough sport on a slippery surface. Today's episode The subject for this episode is one Peter Kurten. To those of you who think you recognize this name, you may be wondering why I'm covering him here. After all, this guy is a German serial killer. I won't spoil this yet, but there is a major Wisconsin connection at the end of the story. Peter's Life Peter Kurten was born in Mülheim am Rhein in Germany on May 26, 1883. He was the third of 13 children, although two of his siblings would die early on. His family lived in a one-bedroom apartment and his father routinely beat everyone in the family. Even worse, Peter's dad would often force the children to watch him and his wife have sex when he was drunk. In 1894, the father would be found guilty of committing incest with his oldest daughter, aged 13 at the time. Peter's mother was able to use this as a basis for separation and moved to Düsseldorf. Throughout his childhood, Kurten would endure a number of hardships - and begin on the path to becoming a serial killer. Because of his fathers' abuse, Peter's academic performance suffered. Additionally, he would run away frequently or try to stay at school as long as possible, avoiding returning home. He learned how to commit some petty crimes in order to keep himself fed while living on the streets. At the age of 9, Peter claims to have committed his first murder. He pushed a school friend into the water, knowing this kid couldn't swim. Another kid jumped in to try to save the first and Peter claims he held both of their heads underwater, drowning them. Police wrote these off as accidental.    At the age of 13, Peter had a girlfriend. They were sexually active but she would not allow them to have PiV sex. Instead of just jerking it like the rest of us would do, Peter resorted to bestiality. Soon, he found he could not orgasm without stabbing these animals during the act. He swore that he stopped this after being discovered doing this with a pig. Of course, this followed a time when he befriended a local dog catcher who let him sidekick it up during work. Together, they would abuse the animals they caught. Around this time, he also tried to rape the sister who had already suffered sexual abuse at the hands of their father.   An FBI profile of Kürten's criminal behavior later concluded his compulsion to abuse and torture animals and to commit arson were a manifestation of his need to feel a sense of control in response to his chronically abusive upbringing.   The arrests begin   In total, Kürten would serve 17 separate sentences of imprisonment between 1899 and his arrest, the combined total of which equals 27 years of his life. Let's dig into why...   He was arrested in 1899 after stealing money from his boss and skipping town, serving a month. In November of that year, he claims to have committed his first adult murder. He stated that he picked up an 18-year-old girl and persuaded her to accompany him. He claimed to have engaged in sex with the her before strangling her to death with his bare hands. In 1900, he would be arrested again for fraud and attempted murder by gun of a young girl. He served four years in Derendorf, a borough of Düsseldorf.   Upon being released, he was drafted into the 98th Infantry Regiment of the German army. He quickly defected and began committing acts of arson. He was arrested on New Year's Eve, admitting to 24 counts of arson. He also stated that he gained sexual excitement over the notion of possibly burning homeless people alive in these fires. He also had committed and attempted robbery. The military tried him and he was imprisoned from 1905 to 1913 in Münster. He refused to follow rules and often found himself in solitary confinement. During this time, Peter later stated, he began to be introduced to intense forms of torture - and gaining sexual satisfaction from them. He would consider performing the 'corrective' torture he experienced in the penal system towards women, often achieving sexual satisfaction from this.   The first murder we know for sure Kürten committed occurred on May 25, 1913. During the course of a burglary at a tavern in his hometown, he encountered a nine-year-old girl named Christine Klein asleep in her bed. He strangled the child, then slashed her twice across the throat with a pocket knife, ejaculating as he heard the blood dripping from her wounds onto the floor by her bed.   The following day, Kürten specifically returned to Köln to drink in a tavern located directly opposite that in which he had murdered Christine Klein, in order that he could listen to the locals' reactions to the child's murder. He later recollected to investigators that he derived an extreme sense of gratification from the general disgust, repulsion, and outrage he had heard in the patrons' conversations. He would visit her grave, too, and spontaneously ejaculated while handling the soil there. He was not caught.   Two months later—again in the course of committing a burglary with the aid of a skeleton key—Kürten broke into a home in Düsseldorf. Discovering a 17-year-old girl named Gertrud Franken, Kürten manually strangled the girl, ejaculating at the sight of blood spouting from her mouth. He was not caught here, either.   After murdering Franken, Kurten was arrested for burglaries and arson. He was originally sentenced to six years, although he served an extra two due to being a shit.    Released in April 1921, Kürten relocated to Altenburg, where he initially lived with his sister. Through his sister, Kürten became acquainted with a woman three years his senior named Auguste Scharf, a sweet shop proprietor and former prostitute who had previously been convicted of shooting her fiancé to death. Two years later, Kürten and Scharf married, and although the couple regularly engaged in sex, Kürten later admitted he could consummate his marriage only by fantasising about committing violence against another individual, and that, after their wedding night, he engaged in intercourse with his wife only at her invitation. For the first time in his life, Kürten obtained regular employment, also becoming an active trades union official, although with the exception of his wife, he formed no close friendships.   Things seemed to be going pretty well for him, all things considered.   Then, in 1925, the couple moved back to Düsseldorf. Peter began having a series of affairs. When Auguste discovered these, both women reported Peter to the police saying they were either seduced or raped. Only the individual who cited seduction and threats had their claims pursued. Peter served six months in prison.   Peter's crimes just jumped up from there. In 1929, he stalked an elderly woman named Apollonia Kühn and stabbed her repeatedly with scissors. Despite many of the wounds going down to the bone, Kuhn survived! Five days later, he strangled a nine-year-old girl named Rosa Ohliger until she was unconscious. He then stabbed her in the stomach, temple, genitals, and heart with a pair of scissors, spontaneously ejaculating as he knifed the child and inserting his semen into her vagina with his fingers. He hid her body initially under leaves, returning later to set her on fire. Another five days later, he murdered a 45-year-old mechanic named Rudolf Scheer in the suburb of Flingen Nord, stabbing him 20 times, particularly about the head, back and eyes.   It wasn't hard to tell, given the timeline and locale, that one person was responsible for these crimes.   Although Kürten did attempt to strangle four women between March and July 1929, one of whom he claimed to have thrown into the Rhine River, he is not known to have killed any further victims until August 11th when he raped, strangled, then repeatedly stabbed a young woman named Maria Hahn. She was looking to marry and he took her on a date, later luring her into a meadow in order that he could kill her; he later admitted Hahn had repeatedly pleaded with him to spare her life as he alternately strangled her, stabbed her in the chest and head, or sat astride her body, waiting for her to die. Fearful his wife might connect the bloodstains she had noted on his clothes with Hahn's murder, Kürten later buried her body in a cornfield, only to return to her body several weeks later with the intention of nailing her decomposing remains to a tree in a mock crucifixion to shock and disgust the public; however, Hahn's remains proved too heavy for Kürten to complete this act, and he simply returned her corpse to her grave before embracing and caressing the decomposing body as he lay beneath her remains. He then reburied her body.   After this murder, he sent the police a map to her remains. He also would change his weapon of choice from scissors to a knife.    On August 21st, he randomly stabbed three individuals who all lived and reported their experiences to police. Three days later, he saw two sisters - aged 5 and 14 - and murdered them both. He decided to suck the blood from their stab wounds, too, leading to him earning the nickname Vampire of Düsseldorf. Not content, he approached a housemaid in her late 20s the next day and propositioned her for sex. When she declined, he attempted to murder her. She survived but was unable to provide details about her attacker.   In September, he attempted to murder two more people, but failed. He felt it was time to change his murder weapon again - this time, to a hammer. He also began to travel more, using train stops to commit his murders.   At the end of September, Peter met a 31-year-old servant girl named Ida Reuter at Düsseldorf station. He asked Reuter to accompany him to a café, then for a walk near the river. He repeatedly struck her about the head with a hammer both before and after he had raped her. On October 11, he met a 22-year-old servant girl named Elizabeth Dörrier outside a theater. As had been the case with Reuter, Dörrier agreed to accompany Kürten for a drink at a café before the pair took a train to Grafenberg, with view to a walk alongside the Kleine Düssel river, where she was struck once across her right temple with a hammer, then raped. Kürten struck her repeatedly about the head and both temples with his hammer and left her for dead. She was found in the early hours of the morning and never woke up from the coma she was found in.    On 25 October, Kürten attacked two women with a hammer; both survived, although in the second instance, this was only because Kürten's hammer broke in the attack. On 7 November 1929, Kürten encountered a five-year-old girl named Gertrude Albermann in the Flingern district of Düsseldorf; he persuaded the child to accompany him to a section of deserted allotments, where he seized her by the throat and strangled her, stabbing her once in the left temple with a pair of scissors as he did so. When Albermann "collapsed to the ground without a sound", Kürten stabbed the child 34 further times in the temple and chest, before leaving her body in a pile of nettles against a factory wall.   The murder of Gertrude Albermann proved to be Kürten's final fatal attack, although he did engage in a spate of non-fatal hammer attacks and attempted strangulations between February and May 1930, maiming 10 victims in these assaults. All recipients survived and many were able to describe their attacker to police.   On 14 May 1930, an unknown man approached a 20-year-old woman named Maria Budlick at Düsseldorf station. Discovering Budlick had travelled to Düsseldorf from Köln in search of lodgings and employment, he offered to direct her towards a local hostel. Budlick agreed to follow the man, although she became apprehensive when he attempted to lead her through a scarcely populated park. The pair began to argue, whereupon another man approached the duo, asking whether Budlick was being pestered by her companion. When Budlick nodded, the man with whom she had been arguing simply walked away. The identity of the man who ostensibly came to Budlick's aid was Peter Kürten. Kürten invited the distressed young woman to his apartment on Mettmanner Straße to eat and drink before Budlick—correctly deducing the underlying motive for Kürten's hospitality—stated she was uninterested in engaging in sex with him. Kürten calmly agreed and offered to lead Budlick to a hotel, although he instead lured her into the Grafenburg Woods, where he seized her by the throat and attempted to strangle her as he raped her. When Budlick began to scream, Kürten released his grasp on her throat, before allowing her to leave.  Budlick did not report this assault to police, but described her ordeal in a letter to a friend, although she addressed the letter incorrectly. As such, the letter was opened at the post office by a clerk on 19 May. Upon reading the contents of the letter, this clerk forwarded the letter to the Düsseldorf police. This letter was read by Chief Inspector Gennat, who deduced there was a slim chance Budlick's assailant might be the Düsseldorf murderer. Chief Inspector Gennat interviewed Budlick, who recounted her ordeal, further divulging one of the reasons Kürten had spared her was because she had falsely informed him she could not remember his address. She agreed to lead the police to Kürten's home, on Mettmanner Straße. When the landlady of the property let Budlick into the room of 71 Mettmanner Straße, Budlick confirmed to Chief Inspector Gennat this was the address of her assailant. The landlady confirmed to the chief inspector the tenant's name was Peter Kürten.   Peter Got Caught   Although Kürten was not at home when Budlick and Chief Inspector Gennat searched his property, he spotted the pair in the communal hallway, and promptly left. Knowing that his identity was now known to the police and suspecting they may also have connected him to the crimes committed by the Vampire of Düsseldorf, Kürten confessed to his wife he had raped Budlick and that because of his previous convictions, he may receive 15 years' penal labour. With his wife's consent, he found lodgings in the Adlerstraße district of Düsseldorf, and did not return to his own home until 23 May. Upon returning home, Kürten confessed to his wife he was the Vampire of Düsseldorf. With Kürten's full consent, he urged his wife to collect the substantial reward offered for his capture, Auguste Kürten contacted the police the following day. In the information provided to detectives, Kürten's wife explained that although she had known her husband had been repeatedly imprisoned in the past, she was unaware of his culpability in any murders. She then added that her husband had confessed to her his culpability in the Düsseldorf murders, and that he was willing to likewise confess to police. Furthermore, he was to meet her outside St. Rochus church later that day. That afternoon, Kürten was arrested at gunpoint.   Kürten freely admitted his guilt in all the crimes police had attributed to the Vampire of Düsseldorf, and further confessed he had committed the unsolved murders of Christine Klein and Gertrud Franken in 1913. In total, Kürten admitted to 68 crimes including 10 murders and 31 attempted murders. He made no attempt to excuse his crimes, but justified them upon the basis of what he saw as the injustices he had endured throughout his life. Nonetheless, he was adamant he had not tortured any of his child victims. Kürten also admitted to both investigators and psychiatrists that the actual sight of his victim's blood was, on many occasions, sufficient to bring him to orgasm, and that, on occasion, if he experienced ejaculation in the act of strangling a woman, he would immediately become apologetic to his victim, proclaiming, "That's what love is all about". He further claimed to have drunk the blood from the throat of one victim, from the temple of another, and to have licked the blood from a third victim's hands. In one of these instances, he had drunk so much blood from the neck wound he had inflicted upon victim Maria Hahn that he vomited. Kürten also admitted to having decapitated a swan in the spring of 1930 in order that he could drink the blood from the animal's neck, achieving ejaculation in the process.   There's a lot of interesting information about his psychological study and trial. It's not something I feel is super relevant to cover here. Needless to say, he was convicted and sentenced to death. On the day he was to be killed, he asked to write letters of apology to his victims' families in addition to one for his wife. For his final meal, he had Wiener Schnitzel, a bottle of white wine, and fried potatoes - and asked for seconds which he was granted.   At 6 am on July 2,1931, Kurten was marched to a guillotine. As someone who derived intense pleasure from gushing blood, he asked "Tell me...  after my head is chopped off, will I still be able to hear, at least for a moment, the sound of my own blood gushing from the stump of my neck? That would be the pleasure to end all pleasures." He had no other final words before being beheaded.   Wait, where's the Wisconsin connection here?   After Kurten was executed, scientists were keen to learn how he worked. They took his brain to study it in an effort to find what made him evil. The head was bisected and mummified. Arne Coward, a noted collector of strange things with a torture museum in Hawaii, wound up with it following World War II. Coward had acquired the famed Nuremberg Torture Collection in order to open up this museum. That collection has made international tours, and went through the US just before the turn of the 20th century.   Ripley Entertainment, Inc., tried to buy the museum from Coward. The Nuremberg collection itself was divided up after Coward's death in 1989, and Ripley's settled for some pieces. The Nuremberg collection itself was divided up. Initially, the third-party seller Randall Miller and Edward Meyer, VP of Exhibits and Archives at Ripley Entertainment, Inc., had no idea whose mummified head they were bargaining over in June 1989. Meyer was interested in acquiring more mummified objects for Ripley's and found the head a great specimen. He says "It didn't have to have a story to be interesting to me. Visually, this is a museum piece." And, he's right. The head is split straight down the middle so that one can see the inner workings of the skull, sans the brain of course.    Meyer recalled that the Kurten head came with a magazine article depicting the crimes of Kurten. Without having seen this ahead of time, Meyer could have had no idea what the significance of this mummified head was. Given that, Meyer ranked Kurten's head as one of the top five strange things they have in their collection.    The Ripley's Believe It Or Not! museum in the Wisconsin Dells was slotted to open in May 1990. As the designers began to work on a display for this head, they designed a whole gallery around medical oddities for the Dells location. While there has been a slight change towards torture, Meyer believes Kurten's head is likely the only thing that has never moved or changed from our local location.    The problem with Ripley's   In episode one of the web series Serial Killer Culture, available on Amazon Prime, Meyer takes the viewers through the Ripley warehouse in Orlando, Florida. In it, he's quick to point out the various tribal art and how important it's been to the organization. Ripley himself, Meyer says, traveled to around 201 countries during his lifetime to collect the strange and unusual. He also makes some assumptions about cannibalism and other practices that are seen as 'other' to Western eyes. He's also proud of the nearly 100 shrunken heads the organization owns, even using two pretty out-of-date racial comments for 2016. Despite this, Meyer considers himself to be an educator.   This is a great display of colonization and seeing those different from yourself as 'other.' Noted exhibits, both current and past, display medical anomalies and resort to ableism to shock attendees. Meyer's racism aside, we also see racism instilled in a wonder over shrunken heads, tribal instruments, and other attractions. In the show notes, I've linked a paper from Sarah Haughenbury called 'A Spectacle Of The Odd: Constructing Otherness In The Odditoriums Of Ripley’s Believe It Or Not!' Haughenbury explores these issues closely, from ableism and racism to lack of context and ethics. The otherness involved in cultural tourism, especially without proper context, harkens back to the days of sideshows. These generally remove personal agency, just like Ripley's does with displaying bodily remains, especially without specific consent.   Links   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_K%C3%BCrten https://www.biography.com/crime-figure/peter-kurten https://listverse.com/2018/02/02/10-twisted-facts-about-peter-kurten-the-vampire-of-dusseldorf/ https://www.cultofweird.com/crime/peter-kurten-head-wisconsin-dells/ https://www.amazon.com/Serial-Killer-Culture-Web/dp/B06W2LMBBD Haughenbury's paper: https://bit.ly/2Vpwcja ACEs score: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/03/02/387007941/take-the-ace-quiz-and-learn-what-it-does-and-doesnt-mean   Next episode   My goal is to bring the show back to every other week here. You should see a new episode in two weeks. I'm hoping to pull together a few more ways to interact with folx, too!

Content note: murder, sexual assault Photo source Everyone and their BFFs confessed to the abduction and murder of Georgia Jean, but her disappearance remains unsolved over 70 years later. If that wasn't enough to bring out the feels, I'm in the middle of a surprise divorce! Also! The True Crime Podcast festival is this Saturday, July 13, at the Marriott Downtown, right on the magnificent mile. There are over 80 true crime podcasters coming - including True Crime Obsessed and even me! This is a full-day event, and gives you a chance to meet your favourite podcasters in a large-scale meet-and-greet, with several panel discussions and live episodes too. Come hang out! To find out more and join the almost 400 people who have bought tickets, head to tcpf2019.com or look for it on social media. I can't wait to see you there!! Resources Family weebly site WTMJ4 story from 2017 2013 story Charley project page Missing children from Wisconsin Missing children nationally Transcript Please note this is a rough transcript due to time limitations. I'll come back and fix it! Welcome to the most belated episode of the Spooky Sconnie podcast thus far. This is the podcast that seeks to dive into everything from Wisconsin, from the true crime and paranormal stuff to cryptids and just wonderfully weird Wisconsin history. And I'm your host, Kirsten Schultz. ----more---- It's been a minute, a couple minutes, several weeks. Um, I owe y'all an explanation. If you don't already follow the social media channels for the podcast, then you probably haven't heard because I'm shit at posting on the Pod Bean, a app on its own, like updates. Um, but I am in the middle of getting a divorce and it's not necessarily a hundred percent amicable on my side, but it's kind of a surprise divorce for me at least. So it's been a rough couple of weeks and I needed to take some space, stepped back from a couple of things to take care of myself and, um, you know, dive in with all of my energy to finding a new place, which I have found one. Um, I signed the lease today and I move in, um, in about two weeks, a little less. Um, and my goal is hopefully by the beginning of August to be fully moved into that new place and, um, hopefully be putting out some more regular episodes, between now and then. It might be a little funky. Yeah. Not sure schedule wise, what's going to work. so far I've gotten basically almost everything that I own in our apartment up into our loft space, which was like my office anyway. Um, and I'm sleeping on a Futon, which is not great for my chronic illnesses and my back and so many things. Um, but you know, have to do what we can do till we can do better I guess. Um, yeah, so like I said, episodes will probably be infrequent until, mm, Probably middle of August or something like that. Um, so this will be the kind of the last episode for a couple of weeks again, but, uh, I'm hoping to kind of like plunge into late summer slash fall, um, deeply and really be able to have more time set aside to doing research too. Um, you know, finding new things to talk about and um, being a lot more present for all of you. So I appreciate you guys sticking in there with me and hanging in there. Um, and you know, things will get better and it'll be good. It'll be fine. I'm, I'm going to be fine. Um, I'm just going to keep repeating that until it's the thing. So, um, part of why I'm releasing this episode on a day different than what I normally would do, um, is because the Saturday is the true crime podcast festival in Chicago, um, at the Marriott downtown on magnificent mile. So please make sure you come. I will be there. I have goodies to give away and to sell, um, including buttons and bottle openers or jars. Oh gold. I keep using mine. It's amazing. It's also magnetic, which I discovered by accident, but like in a good way. Um, I also have a piece of original art that I may be giving away. We'll see. Um, so if you come, make sure that you find me, cause I would love to say hi to you. And, um, if you are coming again, make sure you try to follow the social media pages because I will be posting what I'm wearing that morning and other stuff so that y'all can come find me so we can talk and it'll be great. It'll be great just to spooky. Scani girl in a Chicago world there should be a Hashtag, right? If you still haven't gotten your ticket, you can go to t c p F as in true crime podcast festival TCP f 20 nineteen.com, and you'll be able to snag tickets and see who else is coming. Um, and also check out the schedule, which they're releasing more and more information about, which is great. Um, there's also a shop you can buy like other cool things from them, so make sure you check that out. And what else? What else, what else? Yeah, I think that that's the big stuff. Um, so let's dive in to today's episode. Okay. We are talking about Georgia Jean Wexler and her disappearance. Georgia Jean was an eight year old in 1947. She got a ride home from school with a friend's mom and got dropped off on the opposite side of the road, um, from her home next to her mailbox. She had grabbed the mail, uh, walked across the highway because of course this is Wisconsin, you must cross a highway to get to your house. Um, and, and I was the last time that anybody saw her, which is terrifying, especially considering the fact that again, she's eight years old. Um, and this is in Fort Atkinson, which is, um, it's kind of between Milwaukee and Madison, but slightly to the north. It sits in Jefferson County and as along the Rock River, um, near Lake Koshkonong. So if you know where any of those places are, you kinda know where that is. Um, four is kind of a small town. Um, it's, is kidding bigger now, but it's still, it's still pretty small. Towny um, as you know, compared to places like Green Bay eve and, um, not at, not even just Madison and Milwaukee, but Green Bay. So that's fort to shame. Not that Green Bay is my favorite place, but okay. There has been a couple of news stories about George's disappearance in the last couple of years. Um, but first I want to, you know, kind of go through what happened. So she's been missing sense again. May 1st, 1947 from Fort Atkinson, Wisconsin, they classified this as a nonfamily abduction. Her date of birth is January 28th, 1939. I'm at time of disappearance. She was four foot three inches tall and weighed somewhere between 65 and 75 pounds. She was wearing a light blue tee shirt with a pink button sweater over it, a blue skirt with a red moon or flower pattern, blue jeans under that skirt, rubber boots or Brown moccasin type shoes with reddish colored composition souls and a brown flowered headscarf. Um, she's very white, very blonde and had, um, Brown eyes and apparently had a growth on one heel, which I can not figure out any more information about that. So the neighbor who dropped her off was a friend's mom and again, dropped her off kind of at the beginning of the driveway by the, um, mailbox. Okay. The, um, Georgia told the neighbor that she might go into the woods and pick some flowers for a May Day basket before going inside her home. She and her, um, siblings, I believe she had two brothers and a sister usually rode their bicycles, but it had rained so it was really muddy and their dad drove them to school that morning. She got out half an hour earlier than, um, her siblings. And so that's why she got a ride home from this neighbor after Georgia started walking up the driveway slash crossing the highway. There seems to be a, some disputes depending on where you're looking. Um, she never made it fully up that way. Like never arrived at the house. Nobody saw her inside the house or at the house itself. Again, it's a long driveway though. So [inaudible] the meal she was carrying wasn't found. And I think that's an important piece, um, because it shows that she clearly didn't get inside, um, at least not in a space where she could actually put down that meal. George's mom wasn't really concerned right away when Georgia didn't get home. She kind of assumed that Georgia's dad had picked her up and they didn't start searching until about 6:00 PM when the dad got home without Georgia witnesses had reported seeing a dark colored possibly black sedan. Um, a 1936 or 37 Ford with a gray plastic spotlight in the vicinity that afternoon. The car vanished around the same time Georgia did. And deep tire tracks were later found in the road as if a vehicle had pulled out fast. Um, the person driving that was described to be blonde male and somewhere between 20 to 25 years old, this person is the prime suspect in George's abduction. He was never identified, um, despite the fact that they actually questioned a ton of people over the years. This wasn't necessarily one of those cold cases that they just sit on forever. There was actually a lot of work, um, going on behind the scenes consistently on this case. Yeah, several witnesses reported seeing a young girl struggling and pleading with a man inside a similar vehicle in Fort Atkinson shortly after Georgia vanished. Um, you know, there's no definitive answer on whether or not that was Georgia, but people assumed. So they believed, um, at the beginning that she might have been kidnapped for ransom. Her father was a public official and they weren't poor. Um, but after several days with no attempt to, you know, stay at ransom demands, the family and local authorities were like, Huh, I guess that's not what's going on. So they quickly moved to, assuming she had been taken by a sexual Predator and that continues to be the main theory in this case, she was actually terrified of being kidnapped and we'll, we'll get into that later. But I think it's such an interesting thing to consider, um, that that was the case. There is a detective currently, or at least as of 2017 I'm with the Jefferson County sheriff's office named detective Leah Meyer, and she's the one that's handling the cold case or at this point, um, she shared a lot in some news articles. So I'll link to some of those. Um, and kind of the big takeaway from interviews that she's done around this case is that she knows that it's going to be probably impossible to solve this case at this point. It's so old. Um, so many people have died that were involved with the case and it, there's just a lot of obstacles to getting this solved. It's 70 something years old here. The offender, um, detective Myra believes that the offender didn't preplan this, this was not a premeditated kidnapping, but just saw Georgia after she'd gotten dropped off and decided to take her. So not unlike, um, the case of Jamie Kloss, like we discussed in some of those Minnesota earlier this year, which I have to do an update on that shit because yeah, that has gone to hell in a hand basket. I mean, he's still guilty and he's still been sentenced and all of that, but he tried to pull some shit. Like it was not a big deal. I don't know. Anyway, that is not this episode. Um, detective Myra believes that the prime suspect that it's known as opposed to this random blonde man as a person named Buford Senate. He was paroled after a conviction in the 1940s related to sexual violence. Um, he actually had confessed to George's murder. Um, he claimed that he and a companion that he refused to name had kidnapped her for ransom and given her some sleeping pills to keep her quiet in the meantime, but that she had accidentally overdosed and died, which just want to change that sentence a little bit cause I don't like how it's written in this piece. Um, it's not that she accidentally overdosed, it's that they gave her too many pills. Like you shouldn't be giving anybody that's that young sleeping pills. You shouldn't be kidnapping a young girl. Like the onus is on you guys. Um, she didn't accidentally overdose. Anyway, Senate in this confession shared details about the case that we're not ever released to the media and the physical description of the suspect, that blonde dude between 20 to 25 matches, sentence description and witness accounts of that dark car scene in the area match kind of what he drove. So it really fits in very well. Senate said that after discovering that, um, he had killed Georgia on accident, that he tossed her remains into the blue river, which is near the town of Blue River, surprise, a search of the river turned up no sign of Georgia. Um, and in 2017 they actually found um, senates hideout and um, she shared that they had like gone in and tried to see if there are any ashes or remains or anything like that. Um, and she says it's nothing more than a giant Fox hole. I think it would be important to search the, that vicinity, finding any new leads or possibly discovering her remains. Um, you know, they found some ashes and did testing, but that it didn't, uh, come back as related to George's body whatsoever. Son, it was never charged in connection with George's case. Police still don't actually know whether he was involved because he turned around and recanted his confession. Um, and up until he died, maintained that he had nothing to with George's case. Senate was paroled in 1974 and then arrested again for the sexual assault of two young girls in 1987 he was sentenced to 20 years in prison for those assaults. The sentence ran consecutively to the remainder of his 1947 rape slash murder sentence because you know, being rearrested and sexually assaulting other young girls is a violation of your parole. He died in prison here in Wisconsin in 2008. And Detective Meyer doesn't really believe his description of the events. Um, she's gone on record as saying it feels more like a mix of truth and fiction than pure truth. Um hmm. Just the different things that he's shared, but she's also gone on record to say, um, to describe him as extremely violent, sexually based offender that I think would fit the emo for crime. Like Georgia. Jean's son Senate was not the only person to confess to George's kidnapping a murder. A number of other individuals, including a convicted murderer from Nebraska have confessed over the years. Nothing could be proven against any of them and just about everybody recanted. So let's dive into these other potentials aspects. The first is that convicted murderer from Nebraska steam is Charles McClelland. He was 25, um, in this article I found from 1954 in which he was discussed, um, and won't read this all in like 1930s voice cause that's a lot of 1930s voice. But, um, he was found innocent. Um, the night before this article ran of killing a prison guard and, um, officers had said the day before that he had signed a statement, um, the prior December saying he had kidnapped and killed Georgia gene during his trial for the killing of this prison guard, his defense counsel contended that the prisoner had made a number of confessions to murders that he could not have done. And that one of those was this crime. Um, he said on the Friday, again, the day before that this ran, that he had made up the story about kidnapping Georgia gene after it in an Omaha newspaper in October of the previous year, a letter from him to Wisconsin officials led them to question him. Captain Glenn Petty of the Jefferson County police said, McClelland has told us too much, so much that we don't have to prove his guilt. He will have to prove his innocence. I'm sorry, that sounds like a Trump line. I kind of want a bar for right now in my mouth and all over this microphone so I won't Barf. Um, he had actually been McClellan who had actually been serving two life terms for murdering a tourist couple from Virginia near Omaha during, uh, August of 1947. And, um, you know, he didn't have a motive, but definitely was a violent person so people could see how that could have been a connection. Okay. But, um, his story is also extremely similar to Buford sentence in that he claimed basically the same things that they had kidnapped her, that they had accidentally given her too many sleeping pills and then dumped her body off of blue river red or bridge, excuse me. Um, and again, nobody ever found anything from her body within that river. Yeah. Um, senates comments were made seven months after Georgia gene disappeared. And at this point, we are several years later. And so what I think could, um, play into this is I have a feeling that McClelland would rather have been in Wisconsin than actually be facing this trial for murdering this prison guard. Cause I can't imagine other prison guards are going to treat you well if they know you're in prison and facing trial for murdering one of them. That's not how cops act. Um, and that maybe word had traveled through the various prison whisper networks like it does okay. And that he kind of owned that story as his own, but, but that's just my theory. You know, he definitely doesn't fit the same way that Buford Senate does. Okay. Another potential subject is none other than future podcast. Uh, yeah. Subject I guess. Ed Gene. Hmm. Yeah. Um, George's case received additional attention about 10 years after she vanished. Um, when authorities in Plainfield, Wisconsin arrested at Geen for murdering a local female tavern keeper. Um, investigators uncovered lots of things that his farm were not going to go into it yet. Um, and they consider him a possible subject in suspect. Oh my God. In George's disappearance as well as the disappearance of Evelyn Hartley who was abducted from Lacrosse in 1953. Um, I think part of it is just because neither of them have been found and he had a bunch of like nipples and stuff in his house. Like, I don't know, I just feel like that's what people would assume what happened. Neither Avalon nor Georgia Jean fit the profile for gains victims. Like he went after middle aged women. There's a reason he might want after middle aged women. Um, he also doesn't match the description of the person that they believe abducted Georgia gene. Cause surprise. He was not 20 to 25 during this time period. He did own a black 1937 Ford, but like how many people owned that at this point in time? Um, there's a couple other stories associated with George's disappearance that I wanted to touch on because I think they're interesting. Um, and these are all pooled from like local news stories that are all on a Weebly site. And I'll, I'll put the link in the show notes, but it's um, family members who have like meticulously kept notes and news articles are related to the case. So you can go back and look from like the day she disappeared onwards at the evolution of the case, see the obituaries of her family members. Um, look at the family member that runs the site, what their theories are. It's just absolutely fascinating. And Oh my God, I could spend hours, could spend hours, I won't, but I could. So these are, these are all from some of those articles. Um, so right after Georgia gene disappears, they are looking for this man in his late twenties, mid to late twenties, driving a black Ford or 1936 or 37 Ford sedan equipped with a spotlight. And a spare tire carried on the rear as was kind of the thing. And the time period that car had been seen twice near the Wexler farm around the time she disappeared. And the two stories told to the men of, um, the sheriff's office in Jefferson County did have some contradictions between them, especially in time, but they, I think they were just grasping for everything they could get. Um, see even try to link anything up at this point. Around 3:40 PM on Thursday, about 10 minutes after Georgia gene was seen last, um, a man named Ernie was driving east on highway 12, a black Ford sedan turned out of a byway ahead of him and he followed it to the city. He believes that the side road was the lane leading to the Wexler farm. About 10 minutes later, the teacher of the Ives school about to land one half, two and one half miles southwest of the Wexler home noticed a very similar car or the same car. School had already been dismissed and she was there alone putting the Friday lessons on the blackboard. So prepping for the next day. The car on the side road running past the school, moved very slowly. The teacher went to the door and looked out in the car, sped up and went away. Um, and again it resembled the same one seen by Ernie. A third story was during the time this news story came out being checked by the Fort Atkinson police. Sometime between three 30 and 4:00 PM, Sam Clement of Fort Atkinson stopped his car at a sign near the Fort Atkinson telephone exchange. Um, an older car parked a man and woman got out as they were about halfway across the street, a little girl in the back seat of this car yelled out, let me out. I want to go home. The man in this couple turned back, reached into the car and appeared to either strike the girl or pull something over her head. Um, claimant also said that this incident was seen by two men standing on a corner and possibly by, um, picketers in front of the telephone building. Um, the account of Georgia Jean's actions really follows a pattern up until the point where she gets towards home. Um, and they're not sure what happens, right. So they're really grasping at straws and looking into this theory. Um, at least one this was all happening. Yeah. Clement moved to get out of his, um, to try to go look at what was happening with this girl in this forward. Um, he noted that there were two men, those two men that had also witnessed this incident were coming towards the car from where they had been standing. Cars behind him began honking because he was still driving, right. Um, he had just been stopped at a stop light and the light had changed. So he had to go and he said that he believed that those two men on the corner were going to handle the situation. This was between half an hour to an hour after the neighbor, Mrs Flowcrete, that's a funky name. Um, took Georgia Jean home. The children had been carefully told about stranger danger and you know, don't get into cars, pupil, you don't know all that stuff. Um, but her dad also pointed out that it wasn't unlikely that she might've gotten into a car within the driveway itself cause the driveway really is like a longer road that just goes up to their house. Um, and she'd probably assume that a driver coming up the driveway was going to be there to visit her dad who was the treasurer of the town. Um, and so probably wouldn't have thought as much about saying no to them as she would to somebody driving on main street, offering her a ride. Numerous black cars, several of them without license plate had been stopped by police during this time period. Um, so within a couple of weeks after the incident, but all drivers had been able to, you know, share their alibis and, and nothing came of that. A neighbor, Mrs Ivan l Jones, I love when they just refer to women as their husband's name. That's great. Mrs. Jones had said that Georgia Jean often talked about how she'd feared kidnapping after hearing about the kidnapping and murder of Suzanne Degnan in Chicago. They're not sure what prompted that fear, but I'm sure hearing details about being kidnapped and murdered, I might do that. Just, I don't know. Why are we listening to true crime podcasts right now? Friends. Um, the sheriff and George's father, we're still at this point, you know, searching. Um, but we're exhausted. They went nonstop for as long as they could. Um, and it would just was really, really hard on them in the whole community. They searched for Georgia for several weeks and months and years. Um, I'll be at not with the same vibration as right after her disappearance naturally. But you know, within the couple of days after she disappeared, they went from, you know, calling each other to sweeping, you know, fields and woods nearby and putting up posters to people jumping in their airplanes and, you know, doing surveillance sweeps of the area to see if they could see anything out of the ordinary. And even spiritual. Is Scott in on this? Y'All a tip from one spiritualist precipitated one of the biggest rural police raids in southern Wisconsin history. It brought out 11 police cars, more than 25 officers, sirens, guns, and spotlights. The raid had it start in a trip, which Elmer Wachtler and uncle of the girl made it to a spiritualist in fall. DLAC the spiritual is described as deserted farmhouse in which the searchers would find the eight year old girl. The uncles convinced the officers to at least give this try. Right. What do you have to lose at this point? And 11 police cars. The men converged by several roads at midnight Friday. I didn't look at the dates. I'm so sorry. I'm on an embarrassingly deserted farmhouse and the eastern part of Dane County, um, which is where Madison is. Madison is like the capital of Dane County. I mean it's the capital of the state, but like it's the main city in Dane County. Yeah. Everything else is super rural. For the most part. The officers surrounded the structure and then hit it with spotlights from their cars. They hunted the horns and yelled for the occupant, if any to come out. No one appeared. The men observed a fresh tire trail leading into the yard. Um, and then into a dark foreboding barn. They opened the door and found a car with what? Tires in the back seat. They found a Jefferson newspaper in which the story about George's disappearance was featured. They found a pair of stockings and a flowered scarf. The car license was issued to a man from Meryl, Wisconsin. Yeah. Those findings convinced the officers they were on the right trail. So they returned to the house and when they were about to break in the front door, the owner just like came out in his long underwear and was like, what's up? What do you want? And they asked if he had a little girl in the house and he said, yeah, my like nine year old daughter is here. And they're like, George's almost nine. So they were just like super convinced, like, we have got her, this is it. And they demand to see the daughter. And the guy is like, oh fuck you guys think it's Georgia. It's not Georgia. He leads her upstairs. It is two 30 in the morning. He, um, he leads the police officers upstairs and they go, oh, fuck. It's not Georgia. Um, the police officers and specifically Elmer Wah Claire, the Song Cole as with most, um, kidnappings, especially of young girls, there were reports of Georgia being seen in other cities and even states. I mean, that was not an uncommon thing. Um, but they really didn't ever turn out to be her. Mrs Wachtler said, this is so sad. We thought we'd been through the worst when the children had polio last August. So before she disappeared, um, Georgia and her siblings had all had polio terribly and Georgia actually had the worst case of it. Um, and I actually know somebody who had polio. So it's quite fascinating to be able to like, ask questions about that time period and what polio was like. Um, and then want to shit my pants because of anti-vaxxers and okay. Polio wants to try to make a comeback. Okay, well let's go back to this quote. So we thought we'd been through the worst when the children had polio last August. It would be better. She'd been killed on the highway then. At least we'd know. And that's so fucking sad. Okay. Only once did a search party and cover really anything useful. And it was George's brother Laverne, who is 12, and he was with a couple of older teens hunting through the woods near the Ives school and they found the footprint of a small girl, one of Georgia jeans shoes, like totally fit that print. And then like within a couple of days, one of the neighbor girls was like, oh guys, sorry. That was me. I was picking flowers. Um, other than that, no trace of Georgia has really ever been found and her disappearance is still unsolved and Israel fuck and sad. Um, just on the off chance that one of you is like a hundred years old, if you or anyone you know has information about what might've happened to Georgia, um, called detective Lee Admirer of the Jefferson County sheriff's office. Her number is 920-SIX-SEVEN-4736, five. And it is so sad, so sad. Um, you know, George's family, her, her parents are dead. All of her kind of extended family. The older people who were really gung ho about trying to search for her, that uncle Elmer, you know, they're, they're all dead. Um, I think she has maybe a couple of her siblings are still around, but okay. It's, it's very sad because you know that these people have gone through hell and that they will never have had closure. Um, this is one moment where I do feel very strongly about my own beliefs in some sort of afterlife and I don't know what that looks like. I mean, maybe it's different for everybody. I don't know. But, uh, my hope is that, you know, the, the mother, the father, the rest of the family members who have passed, um, have been able to reconnect with Georgia gene on the other side and at least know what happened. Um, and excuse me, I think I'll just like throat burped. Um, and I, I really do hope that the story about her taking sleeping pills, being made to take sleeping pills and going in her sleep is what happened. My Gut says that's not what happened, but I want to believe that that's what happened for her sake. Um, and you know, maybe for the sake of people, if they ever do find out what happened is there is so many stories where that's not the case, but I also can't see that being reality. So ugh. Sucks. Why did I pick a Downer at bus? Oh, topic. Well, uh, you know, I'll, I'll go back to the thing from when I first covered Jamie clauses disappearance. Um, when they first found her really is when I started. So I just have to remember that Georgia Jean's case has stuck around because she was a white kid. She was a little white girl in the middle of white town whose family was well connected. And that's why we know about her story. There are tons of black and brown babies that have gone missing that nobody cares enough about to even look at doing a fucking fly over. Um, and I'm going to put a link up in the show notes too. Information about current missing children. Um, you know, figure out where to get that information in your area and, and look for it because you never know. You could be the one person that sees something, says something and saves someone's life or the very least can give a family closure. And that's pretty fucking awesome. Just for those people to have that regardless of whether or not you really are involved with it. I think that's pretty cool. So anyway, um, again, butt plug for a, the true crime podcast festival this Saturday in Chicago. Come hang out and come see me. I'm excited to see people there. Um, I might scream about some of the podcasters that are going to be there. That'll be fine. Um, but also like I will probably have no voice by the end of that day. Um, and if you are going to be in Chicago for that, let me know. Maybe we can hang up, get a drink, you know, ham sandwich. I don't know. I really like do write doughnuts in Chicago. So shit, maybe we can just eat some donuts. I am so down for true crime and donuts. That should be a thing. Anyway, come on on Saturday. If you can't, you know, keep me posted on true crime hops in your area. And maybe I'll do that sometime when I have money after being divorced. Um, thanks again for being understanding about shit cause this has been a weird ass couple of weeks and I don't like it. Um, but you know, knowing that I have a duty to y'all actually helped a lot and sitting down and doing this like right now while I'm alone in my current place is just, it's been really Cathartic. So I'm going to stop talking at, you know, and I will catch Ya. On the flip side, you just listened to the spooky scanny podcast. It's produced every two weeks by me, Kirsten Schultz, the intro, outro music is from purple plants. You can find show notes and more over at Spooky Scani Dot Podbean dot. Including a transcript in case you missed anything. Take a minute and rate and subscribe if you can. You'll help more people see the show by rating and you won't miss a single episode if you subscribe. And that's pretty dope. You can support the show over at patrion.com/spooky scani podcast and you can email me anything you'd like me to know at spooky. Scani podcast@gmail.com in the meantime, sleep tight and don't let the badgers. Bye.

Content note: animal mutilations with details   Pic source   This week, I'm covering the Beast of Bray Road - just like Em from And That's Why We Drink did during one of their live shows here in Madison this week. I'd totally planned it already, so the coincidences are the best. What do you expect from the two coolest theybes?   Resources Wikipedia Did Legend Hunter just solve the mystery of the Beast of Bray Road and add new theories on Dogman and Chupacabra legends? 14 Facts About the Beast Prairie Ghosts Historic Mysteries Linda Godfrey's site PBS video Isthmus article The Bray Road Beast on Amazon Prime Script transcript Transcript   Welcome to episode nine of the Spooky Sconnie podcast, the podcast that covers everything fun from Wisconsin, from the criminal and the paranormal to the just plain weird. I'm your host, Kirsten Schultz. And on this edition we're covering a story I got to see live this week actually, um, this week, the wonderful podcast And That's Why We Drink was here in town. And I went and saw them both nights. They were performing at comedy on state, on state street here in Madison, and it was a really great time. Um, I love Em and Christine, the two of them are just hilarious, and it's always fun when I get to see them and say hi. So I really enjoyed that and they covered some cool stuff that I'll be bringing up soon. Um, although I guess, you know, really they covered two stories I've already done too, which is kind of cool. ----more---- Um, and that's probably my husband's fault, but I won't get into that. But, uh, no, I, I love And That's Why We Drink. I love Em and Christine and, and it was great fun to be able to see them this week. Um, and one of the stories that Em covered actually was the beast of Bray Road. So I was already planning on doing it for this week's episode and it just pushed me to do it even more. Em did a really great job and I'm not going to be able to live up to the amazing, amazing humor that they injected into the story. But I'll try. Before I get started, just another reminder that the um, true crime podcast festival in Chicago is coming up on July 13th. That is a Saturday. It is a one day deal and yours truly, we'll be there. I will have some goodies for sale, and you might even just be able to win some of them. So, you know, come the tickets aren't that pricey. Come hang out. There's a lot of other great podcasts that will be there too. Um, and it'll be a great time. I know, I'm really excited to see True Crime Obsessed the night before - they have a show which the tickets are already sold out. I'm so sorry for bringing it up, but, um, I'm really excited to be able to go listen to them, cover a story and enjoy them in person to the true crime and paranormal podcast world is kind of amazing and it's really fun to, uh, to be able to, to meet people and see how they hone their craft. So, so there you go. Make sure to put that on your calendars and come hang out with me in Chicago and while you're there, pickup Do Rite Donuts because they're fucking amazing. They have Vegan and gluten free options to just saying I am not in any way sponsored by them, but every time I go to Chicago I get so many donuts and now I just wish I had donuts. It's way too early to be functioning without donuts. Um, so yeah, so as I said, we're covering the beast of Bray road today, which is pretty exciting. This occurs in and around Elkhorn, Wisconsin, which is about 40 to 50 miles depending on where you mark it, south west of Milwaukee. It's located in Walworth county and it's basically the biggest city in the county. So it's the county seat is where like the county court house is all that kind of stuff. But despite being kind of the main city in that county, it's still pretty small town, still pretty Homey, which is kinda fun. So Bray road itself is more traveled now than it used to be. Um, it's one of the ways that people can get towards some of the highways in the area. So if you're going anywhere basically, um, Bray road is a potential for you to drive down to get towards like 43 or other highways to, to travel across the state. It used to be basically like a driveway. In fact, the road is named after four brothers who all had farms along the road. Um, and those farms have for the most part continued for multiple generations. The last Bray brother that purchased a plot, um, did so in 1902. So these families have been living on this land for all a really long time and there are definitely some non-Brays living there. But, um, it's, it's really heavily populated with people with the last name Bray and that's um, in a lot of rural and small town areas. That's how a lot of roads get their names is they're named after the people who lived on them, which is kind of fun. So I want to describe the beast itself and there's a couple of different descriptions, but these are kind of the main things you need to know as we go through the story and the history of the beast. It's been described by witnesses in several ways. Um, sometimes it's described like a bear, a bear like creature. Other times it's described as something similar to bigfoot. It's usually incredibly tall for something like a wolf. Um, but it has been compared to that too. It's around at the highest, um, six to eight feet when it's standing upright and can be as tall or described as tall as five feet when on all fours. The fact that this is an animal able to walk on its hind legs and that does so often is I think an interesting thing. Um, it's been described as weighing between 400, 700 pounds, sometimes more, sometimes less. I don't know how people estimate this stuff. Like I would just be like, it was built, I dunno. Um, and, and that's, that's a true thing too. This is supposed to be a very buff cryptid. Um, it has fur or hair that ranges from like a brown gray to a black color. Um, and again is very similar to dog or bear hair where it's not incredibly long. People have seen it eating roadkill along Bray road, but upon being seen, this creature who they would have previously described as wolf, like well then get up and run away on two legs on the back too. Naturally, witnesses have also claimed to have been chased through cornfields and other spaces. Um, and that the beast had red glowing eyes. Some other reports have described the eyes as yellow and kind of iridescent the way animal eyes get dark. Um, with the exception of maybe you want to, it's angry thighs will be red. So there's, there's a lot of flexibility in these reports. Um, it has pointed ears and the face is very similar to a wolf. It has three long claws on each hand with two other fingers. So essentially what we would deem as like the index or a pointer finger and the thumb more like shriveled, um, which I think could make sense if we're talking about a wolf, um, or, or some similar type of creature. It's interesting. Um, the body has been likened to that of a lean, muscular man. Um, the leanness is more in the back half and the muscle tends to be more in the front half or upper half. If it's on the back two legs. It's been seen eating prey or scavenging, um, you know, roadkill. Other animals that are left out, it's never attacked anyone successfully, um, as far as the live in person. But some witnesses, um, have said that it's been very aggressive towards them and that behavior includes things like running at people, jumping on their vehicles. Um, they're not sure what the rest of the creature's diet is other than, you know, like roadkill or already dead animals. It also tends to sit back, in almost in a squat, which I think is an interesting thought. Um, or also could kneel like a man. Many locals consider it to be aware of wolf. Some crypto zoologists - people who study cryptids - really see it as a continuation of national and international bigfoot sightings. But you know, naturally since nobody has been able to get evidence of this creature, we, we don't know what it is. It may go back all the way to the very first settlers in Wisconsin who had described canine like creatures who would attack and then vanish without a trace. But a lot of those way back accounts occur in other spaces in the Midwest. So like Michigan, you know, there've been a lot of sightings of a similar creature near Detroit and that's not something I would necessarily say is very close to Elkhorn. So I dunno, I dunno about that one. Most signings tend to occur at night when it's dark. Um, usually between about 10, 30 PM and 5:00 AM, but there have been sightings that have occurred during the day or at other times just far more likely to happen during the dark times. Sightings have occurred all year round but tend to be most, um, reported between August and October. So like these are times when corn fields are growing and it might be really difficult to tell what type of an animal is in a corn field. It's believed that, um, this beast is not one of a kind, um, Linda Godfrey who will talk about a lot during this episode. Um, it was a journalist that helped break the stories, um, in the late eighties, early nineties, and she has seen and gotten reports from people of sightings that match these descriptions across the United States and across the world. It's, um, an actually fairly well known cryptid and thought to be one of the most popular and well known from Wisconsin and other places with the only, um, competition really being the Hodag, which we've already talked about. And it's just the cutest creature. Em from And That's Why We Drink also covered the hodag and it was kind of fun to hear them riff about it. Uh, it was just such a fun little creature. So fun. So with that, we're going to move into some stories about the sightings. So the very first sighting, um, is actually believed to have occurred in 1936 but the siding wasn't really reported, um, to one source until the eighties and nineties kind of phenomena of seeing this beast more often happened in this was reported by Mark Shackleton who worked at St Coletta's as a nightwatchman and occurred in Jefferson county precinct. Coletta is there one night while patrolling the grounds, he spotted a figure digging in a native burial mound, which I promise an episode on those is coming up. On taking a closer look. He saw something that was covered in hair and when it stood erect it was over six feet tall and had shriveled looking thumbs and forefingers on each hand with the other fingers fully formed and humanoid. And as I said later, these fingers would be described as long clause as well. It smelled like death and decay. Shackman returned the next night because he wanted to see the creature again. Um, and he did lucky dude. It was making a strange three syllable growling noise that he dubbed as sounding neo human. He said, it sounded like something like 'gadara' and in the new testament there's a piece about a person possessed by demons that Jesus heals, that people feel like this is in reference to. Um, the problem is from a logistical standpoint, that's likely not the name of the location of this exorcism of this demon. So like, yes, but also no, I see the connection, but also that's like not historical. Shackelman naturally was like "the fuck?" He began praying loudly and started to back away from the beast and the beast, like, mimicked his behavior and backed away too Later, his son would go on to share that his father's first thought was that it must be something satanic. Maybe that's because Shackleton knew his bible and like connected the dots between the Gadara thing or I mean naturally, what are you going to think when you see like this giant hairy beast trying to talk to you at night? I don't know. In 1964, the beast was apparently spotted near the same burial ground and in 1972 a woman had reported it outside her house. She was patro side of it. Trying to get in her home was she said it was trying to um, and harming her family. It's a really interesting story just because I can see it being that she was just very scared that it was trying to be around her home, but I could also see with such humanoid-like hands it trying to get in the home. Um, I think it's aggressive behavior that we don't normally see. So I dunno, I don't know. The rash of claimed sightings in the late eighties and early nineties prompted a local newspaper, the Walworth county week to assign Linda Godfrey to cover the story. While she was initially skeptical, she became convinced of the sincerity of the witnesses. Later on, after interviewing them, she wrote a series of articles which then like spawned this giant book, the beast of Bray road tailing Wisconsin's Werewolf. And she has a site that feels a little like it might want to be on geocities still. Um, but she has people from all over the world who contact her to report their sightings, whether that's been visiting here in Wisconsin or you know, in their local regions. That's, it's really quite fascinating. The sightings here in Wisconsin follow a rash of reported wolf man or well or Werewolf sightings from the 1970s, um, around the United States, specifically in Ohio, New Mexico and Pennsylvania. The first sighting that went public here was fittingly on Halloween in 1989, a high school senior named Doris was driving along Bray road. And as she neared the intersection of hospital road, she leaned over to change the station on her radio. She felt her right front tire jump off the ground as if she had hit something and naturally she was concerned. So she got out of the car to see what it was. And that was her first mistake. She saw nothing on the road behind the car, but began to look around to see, you know, did I hit a deer or a small animal? And as she looked into the darkness, she suddenly saw a dark hairy form racing towards her. She didn't see what the figure looks like from the distance she was standing, which was like 50 feet or so. But she did see it was quite bulky and leader. She compared it to somebody who works out continuously, like is always in the gym pumping that iron. She was really startled and he, and naturally, and um, part of that was because she described the sounds while this thing was running at her as like really heavy footsteps. Um, so I think that'd be scary as it is. She quickly ran to her car and jumped in and was starting to drive away when the beast jumped on to the trunk of her car. It was too wet for the creature to hang on, so it fell off onto the pavement. But the back of her car had these, um, like slashes on the trunk where, um, this creature had been trying to hold on. She returned to the site leader that evening, which I think is bold, um, because she was taking a younger kid out trick or treating and you know, just to had to drive that way. And she saw this thing on the side of the road and saw it start to move towards her. So, you know, this is back in the days of manual door locks. So she told the kid in the backseat to lock the door, um, and drove away as fast as she could. She had no idea what she'd seen, but some of the things she thought it was like, it was just like a bear and it was mad cause I hit it or a wolf or something like that. She told her neighbor about the encounter and the day after and then, you know, showed her car, like, this is the evidence I have. My car is fucked. And more people started talking about it and um, started to share their own encounters with the beast. So one night in the fall. Um, so around the same time a bar manager named Lori Endrizzi was rounding a curve on Bray Road and she thought she saw someone kneeling on the side of the road. So she slowed down to try to see like, is this person hurt? Do I need to help? And took a closer look at this figure. She wasn't more than like six to 10 feet away. So she was pretty close and this was a fairly long encounter as far as these go. It was almost a minute long. Endrizzi stated that what she clearly had seen was a beast with grayish brown hair things and pointed ears. She also said his face was long and snotty like a wolf. I love that she noted that even though the car's headlights were pointed towards the roadway, the creatures eyes glowed with that yellowy color. And like Doris, she saw that this creature was very wide and the chest and very powerful looking and she said the arms were really weird. Um, they were jointed like a humans and seemed to be holding the food upwards, like with the palms of the hands upwards, which no animal that isn't somewhat humanoid or ape-like does that, like dogs don't do that. Guinea pigs don't do that. Cats don't do that like that is not - well I guess unless they're licking their paw - but, like, that is not a typical animal behavior unless you're looking at like apes, monkeys and humans. She didn't notice any sorts of tail. Uh, said the back legs were behind it as though a person was kneeling. Um, you know, again, the arms were muscular and the fingers seemed human like, but there were claws on the end. Endrizzi was super unnerved by the sighting, natch. She later said in an interview that the creature appeared to be so human like that it was scary. And the only answer to what she'd seen she thought was like, maybe this is some sort of freak of nature. She didn't have any idea what else it could be until she was later at the library and saw an illustration of a werewolf. And it's so closely resembled that she like freaked out after hearing Doris is account as a rumor. Endrizzi contacted the Lakeland animal shelter. John Frederickson, who was the county humane officer at the time, spoke with her about what she saw and she also has claimed that she thought she saw the devil. I mean, you know, it happens during their conversation. There was like odd stuff going on in the office to like books were flying off the shelves behind John's desk. That doesn't seem good. Um, at this time he started to create a folder, um, to keep track of all of these interesting sightings and he just casually labeled it 'Werewolf' - just casually. Endrizzi's mother contacted Linda Godfrey hoping that the publicity might encourage other people who had seen this creature to come forward. And the story that followed was published, uh, right after Christmas in 1991. And while it contained some basic information about both what Doris and Endrizzi had seen, it also included information on other sightings. Um, and the nice thing about this was they used pseudonyms for Doris and for Endrizzi. Even though I think at this point a lot of people in the town knew who it was that was, you know, said they had had these sightings, especially Doris. The story also mentioned that chickens had been stolen and that another family who lived near the road had experienced their own close encounter with the beast. Karen Bowie, who actually lived along Bowers road, stated that her daughter, Heather, who was 11 had seen the creature in 1989 they had been playing outside and though they had spotted, oh they thought they had spotted large dog, like hanging out outside and then it's stood up. She mentioned the odd shape of the back legs and how quickly it was moving. John Fredrickson told Godfrey that he thought that this was some sort of coyote, but he did concede that there were a lot of people who believe they'd seen something funky and the he didn't know what to make of it. He'd actually believed, cause the around this time there was a lot of animal mutilation going on and he had believed initially that those mutilations were related to the occult. He'd received a call and the 90s at some point from an anonymous cult member who admitted to playing a part. But many think maybe this was just this beast, like go into town on some tasty little protein packs of animals or if the activity via cult activity brought the beast about. That's the other theory. I feel like the occult explanation as a little to say panic panic for me like this is around the same time that every city somehow had some sort of Satanic panic like, 'oh my God, there's satanists.' Um, and that just feels off for me personally. Um, one of the police chiefs locally, James Jensen, dismissed this idea in June, 1981 but Fredrickson still insisted that officials were missing the point. According to him, some of the animals had had ropes tied around their back legs and their throats were slit somewhere decapitated and others were dismembered in other ways. The most recently killed animals included a dog that had, had its chest cavity split open in its heart removed, which shit? Shit. Oh, several animals match the description of recently missing pets too and certainly had not been killed by passing cars. These mutilated animals were basically covered up immediately. Um, the site where they kept being found wound up being bulldozed. Um, it was kind of in the woods and they just kind of bulldozed everything, you know, tore down trees and that ended Frederickson's investigations into this issue, but really didn't stop anybody in the town from talking about it. Other reports began to reach Fredrickson that summer about this beast. You know, rumors were passed on about humane officer imposters who were pursuing stray dogs. One incident involved this dude nobody knows in a black uniform driving a large black car who attempted to intimidate a kid who was home alone into giving up his black lab. About the same time there were reports of occult graffiti in an abandoned house and at the local cemetery - the abandoned house was about a quarter mile off of Bray road. So that's the connection there, I guess. Um, and yeah, it led to more people wondering if these things were connected. I think it's interesting, the story has so many elements of other stories, right? If we look at the, this unidentified man, he definitely seems like a men in black guy, right? Um, at not the fun movie, like the really creepy ass stories. Um, and I, I think it's just an interesting idea to consider if this was a man in black, why is he trying to get this kid to give up his, um, his puppy? Does it make sense to me? After seeing Frederickson's folder and all of the, um, stories he'd been collecting, Godfrey began reaching out to other witnesses and upon interviewing them all, she no longer thought this was some kind of joke and realize that people had truly believed they'd seen something really freaky. She also, during her conversations with this, these people would watch them essentially going through a PTSD response while reliving their encounters to be able to tell her about them. It's a really fascinating thing. Um, you know, Godfrey herself hasn't said their PTSD type of encounters, but I was watching a documentary last night, um, which is why this didn't go out last night. About the beast of Bray road and, um, the way she's describing these sayings, like they began sweating the, you know, went very white. They had trouble recalling things in order, a lot of those things as someone with PTSD, like their PTSD things. So I just wanted to be clear, she hasn't said their PTSD things, but my PTSD ass did. Large media outlets started picking up this, and unfortunately when that happened, you know, people who had witnessed this animal began to be the butt of jokes and they began to deal with pranks. Um, things would happen. Like they'd wake up to Werewolf signs planted in their front yards or people would have werewolf parties. And that one, I don't think it's that bad, um, except for the fact that this even happened at the bar where Endrizzi worked. And I don't think that she was consulted about whether or not that was okay. Many witnesses who had come out publicly at this point really wished they hadn't. Um, because of all of this monster tee-shirts began to be sold and tourists began to come around, you know, driving up and down those basically this very long driveway that was Bray road at the time. I'm trying to see this creature. So it started to where patience thin around the community, there is also still this large undercurrent of fear in the area. You know, something was going on here and nobody knew exactly what it was and you still have animals being mutilated. You still have, um, pets going missing. Like this is still happening all around the same time. An earlier sighting of quote, something unquote was made by dairy farmer Scott Bray, who reported seeing a quote, strange looking dog unquote in his pasture near Bray road. He said the beast was larger and taller than a German shepherd. That it had pointed ears, a long tail covered in hair and the hair was gray and black and kind of long and shaggy. He added that it was built very heavy in the front and had like a very strong chest. He followed this animal to a large pile of rocks. But then the creature vanished. He did find that I left behind huge footprints. So now we've got this idea of this very large animal and now we've got, okay, we've got very large footprints as well. So that to me and to many disputes, the idea of like a coyote or I dunno like a Malamute gone loose or, um, even like there have even been, um, ideas that this was like a Hyena. Definitely not a Hyena with a very, very large foot, although a hyena would explain how the body is very kind of jacked in front and very, not in the back. We'll, we'll get to that in a bit though. Russell Gest also reported seeing the creature about the same time as Scott Bray. He was a block or so away from this overgrown area and he heard, you know, foliage being wrestled. So he's like, the fuck is this. He looks up to see this creature or emerge from the thicket. It was standing on their feet and took too wobbly steps towards Gest before Gest decided, 'I'm fucking out of here.' He looked back to see that the creature was now on all fours, but it did not chase him. After a short time. It did wander off in the direction of Bray road though guest said this creature was much larger than a German shepherd and again was covered in black and gray hair when it was standing upright. He said it was about five feet tall. It had this very oversized dog or wolf like head, had a big neck and wide shoulders. So this is like the jock of canine creatures. The animals form was mostly dog like and that led guests to hypothesizing that maybe this was some sort of dog wolf hybrid. Um, around Christmas 1990, Heather Bowie had her previous mentioned and counter. Um, she had no idea that she'd seen the same thing as doors, Gibson until she heard Doris talking about it on the school bus and their driver, Pat Lester, who happens to be Lori Endrizzi's mother listened to the girl's story and then pass that on to Linda Godfried. Linda contacted them. Um, well contacted Karen Bowie who was Heather's mom who is also a school bus driver and then mentioned that sighting in the newspaper. So, um, it's really interesting to go back into Heather's story a little bit. This happened at 4:30 PM and again, Heather and several friends were outside. They were returning home from sledding near Loveland road, which is about a mile and a half southeast of Bray and Hospital where, um, Doris had her encounter. They looked up and they saw this dog walking along a creek and since they thought it was a dog, what do you think they did? They're like, hey, puppy puppy, and the creature looked at them and then stood up on its back legs and they were like, oh shit. Heather described the animal as being covered with long silver fish, like brownish hair. The dog walked 4 awkward wobbly stops towards them on those back feet and then dropped down to all fours while starting to run at the children. And then Heather described it later as, um, this animal was taking bigger leaps than dogs run. If all of the group about halfway to the Bowie home before running off in another direction in Elkhorn farmer named Mike Eten also spotted something unusual around the road. Um, it was around two o'clock in the morning. Eten admits he had been drinking at the time, but he saw a dark haired creature bigger than a dog, a short distance from that intersection with hospital road, whatever the creature was. It was sitting like a raccoon sits using its front paws to hold onto something that it was eating. As he passed by the creature lifted its head and looked at him and he described the head as being thick and wide with a snout that was not as long as the dog's, the body was covered with dark, thick hair and the legs were big and thick. He wasn't able to identify it but assumed it was a bear. But then one other sightings came out publicly. He had to sit with that and wonder if what he'd seen was this beast or if he had seen a bear. One of the last reported encounters with this beast happened in early February, 1992 it was about 10:30 PM on Highway H, which is six miles southwest of that intersection of Brian Hospital. A woman named Tammy Bray - surprise - worked for a retirement home and was driving home when a large dog dog like animal, uh, she puts it, crosses the road in front of her. She had quickly hit the brakes and stopped about the same time that this creature is turning and looking at her, which would be fucking terrifying. She described the creature is having a broad chest pointed ears and being covered with maded brown and black for it had a narrow nose, thick neck and shining yellow eyes and that convinced her she was not looking at a puppy. Finally, unafraid though, it's like, it's like that scene and that movie or Joe Pesci or whoever is like, 'Hey, I'm walking here.' It's not Joe Pesci - Why did I pick him? That's okay. You get what I'm saying? Um, so you know, he basically stops the stare down and be like, 'Hey, I'm walking here' and then like walks off. She said it was strong in front and more slouchy, sloppy, like in the rear. So she hurries home and goes to tell Scott Bray that she's seen the same animal. Scott Ray, by the way, it's her husband. The sightings die out, but you know, people are still like the fuck is happening and you know, right as things calm down, a local reputable businessman tells Linda Godfrey anonymously that he's seen two bright lights emitting sparks and moving a radically across the sky above Delavan, which is a nearby town. Later that spring, four or five horses that were in the pasture near Alcorn were found with their throats slashed. John Fredrickson, remember local humane officer dude investigated it and was quoted as saying they were almost surgical type wounds. After that, things became eerily quiet again. So really nobody knows what this is. Um, Linda Godfrey had sat down and kind of sketched out what she thought based on the people she'd talked to, which is, um, kind of the stereotypical idea right now going around still of like, this is very buff werewolf. Um, uh, coyote doesn't match a native Red Wolf doesn't match. Um, gray wolf's are larger than red wolves, but like, they're not really in the area and they're much nearer were in the chest, so it doesn't fit. Um, it just really doesn't resemble anything, even what it was compared to, um, Dan Groebner of the International Wolf Research Center in Minnesota, I was like, Nah, this is not a wild wolf. Y'All not a wild wolf. You know, there's, there's a lot of thoughts of what this could be. Um, could it be some sort of beast along the lines of Incadu from Gilgamesh, this type of Proto-human that isn't civilized yet? Um, I don't know. I, I think it's hard to say, right? There's a lot of our world that's still unexplored, but I also feel like white people are so good at finding, like on, you know, quote on civilized people, unquote to quote, fix on quote that I just feel like we would have found them by now and fucked it up. A researcher named Richard Hendricks points to a creature suggested by a couple of others called the "shunka warak’in" - it's a creature that is said to have lived in the wilds of the upper Midwest. It's a wolf like animal that was known to the native and indigenous population and early settlers in the region region. Um, the creature was named by a native American tribe and the name means carrying off dogs. Nobody really knows that much about the creature naturally, but apparently it was quite fierce. Um, at one point it was a mounted specimen at exhibits in the Yellowstone area and in a small museum in Idaho. Um, and it is some sort of like dog hyena hybrid, which fits a lot of the descriptions that we've seen. So it could be something like that. Uh, other Native American related things could be like skin walkers, although the running theory with skin walkers is that other people within the tribe would know. And a, I would assume someone would have come forward at this point. Could it be an interesting mutation or part of evolution? That's one of Godfrey's theories that she's been working with. Um, another thing she's run into a is people telling her that they felt this was some sort of harbinger of doom, um, not unlike the moth man of, you know, mostly West Virginia lore, although it has been spotted in Chicago in the last couple of years, which is fucking scary. But you know, there's a thought of that, although there's not been some sort of huge tragedy here, like the silver bridge collapse in West Virginia, at least not that we know of. Um, another thought other than Werewolf is could it be some sort of other animal? Um, so we've already talked a bit about like wild dogs. Um, there's a thought that it could be a wolf dog hybrid. There's a thought. It could be a coyote dog hybrid. Um, there were similar encounters about the same time in Michigan and they, um, have labeled it the dog man. So is this some sort of like related thing? I don't know. Um, there is somebody from the show called legend hunter and he believes that, um, the first thing to do is to start by examining the natural wildlife and the region in the area. So wolves hadn't been seen. There are many theories, which we've already covered. Um, but he did consider that an increase in the wolf population everywhere could mean that, you know, wolves are passing through again though we don't think that's a thing. There's not enough forest cover, there's not enough available prey. And the thing is just bigger than a wolf. He did find odd tracks, but again, they didn't match wolves. The other major problem with the idea of this being some sort of wolf if is is wolves are hunters. They are not scavengers, right? Like they don't go and eat things that are already dead. Hyenas do. But we've also already covered why that doesn't fit. Witnesses have also noted that the animal, right was like squatting down and like lifting pray to with mouth to eat, which again, not a wolf trait. You know what is it s trait of? Bears. Bears display this behavior. Bears can walk up. Right. And they're were not supposed to be in the area either. The bears have been spotted in the general, like larger area, so it could be feasible. And Spain from legend Hunter thinks that this is a bear with mange. You know, it would not be easily easy to recognize that this was a bear. Mange makes animals look funky. Um, but I just don't know. I don't know. The other theory, sorry to say is that this could be a very large hoax. So Doris' account took place on Halloween, which that's kind of a red flag, right? The biggest issue though is that there's relationships between a lot of these people and that raises red flags for some, for me, I dunno, it's hard. I can see where they're coming from. But this is also a small town. I don't know. Um, injuries. The mother Pat Lestor is a central figure in this case. In addition to being one witnesses mother, she's also Doris Gibson's neighbor. Um, and drove the bus that Gibson, Heather Bowley and Russell Gest rode. Heather's mother was also a school bus driver. Karen. Um, Tammy Bray was a friend of Pat Lester's daughter and Scott's wife and it was also Lester who took the initiative to contact the newspaper about the sightings. But Lester never tried to influence the reports of witnesses. Um, and so people just think, well she was just in a position to over hear what people were saying and encourage them to talk about it. It's, it's an interesting thing to consider. I think. I found some wild firsthand accounts that I would love to share with you because Holy Shit. So this first account, um, I just found, I don't know who it is from, but it's an account: “I lived in the town of Franklin, WI. This was about 1997-98 We had just moved into a brand new subdivision, and were currenty the only house that was built. The rest of the area for a long distance was empty lots on what used to be the adjoining farm’s old land. Our back yard had a running creek. On the other side of the creek was some brush and a single lane road with an old wooden streetlight that gave off an orange hue about 30 yards or so away. It was a warm summer night, and I was having a sleepover with one of my friends. We had all the lights off and were playing hide and seek in the dark. I went back into our sunroom and saw something crouched over illuminated through the brush and the orange streetlight. I’m not sure how to descrbe its body posture. You know how when you’re about to throw up, and you hunch over on your knees and palms? I was similar to that. Its breaths were so deep and heavy that you could see its chest heaving from that distance. We had a 140lb Akita who stood 6 ft on his hind legs. I could easily tell that whatever this was dwarfed my akita. I also know that it wasn’t any type of dog or wolf. Its hind legs were thick and muscular like a mans but its body tapered at the abdomen and head like a wolf or canine. I called out to my friend who came over and just said “what the fuck is that!?” to me, trying not to make much noise. We sat there as it was hunched for a good 30 minutes. My dad (who was a hardass Vietnam Vet) came out to see what the hell we were doing up so late. We asked what it was and he just said ” I…..don’t know.” He then went outside as we stayed in, scared for my dad. He had one of those old “megalights” that had “the power of 1000 candles” and took it with him. He stood in the driveway and shined it onto whatever we were watching. It looked back at us and I honestly dont remember its eye color. What I do remember is that when it took off into the brush it took off upright, like a sprinter from the on all 4’s stance. My dad heard it splash through the creek and hightailed it in. It was one of those fucked up moments you dont really talk about because people with think you were crazy. When I heard about it so many years later I immiediately knew I’d seen it too.” Another account involves speeding away from the beast only to have it keep pace with a car speeding in excess of 60 miles an hour. Here's some other fun ones. Uh, okay. This first one, I don't know who it's from, but the next couple I do, so I will chime in with their name before I dig into their kind of long quotes. “I’ve spent some time on Bray Road. A good friend of mine has too. You hear things in the woods, maybe see shadows in the fields, but I’ve never had a “true” sighting of anything. Just a creepy being watched feeling. But that could simply be nerves as you’re expecting/hoping for something to happen. My friend has experienced quite a bit and has some impressive EVP’s from different areas. I had something on two legs run out in front of me on the north side of Madison/Middleton, but it happened so fast, it’s hard to say what it was or could have been a deer/wolf/coyote lunging. It seemed pretty big.” So here we can see that, you know, the sightings may not necessarily just be confined again to this area and Elkhorn. Tom Brichta shared his own um, interesting interaction: "it was a Saturday night, late July, early August and I was coming home from a wedding reception, I had my friend Scott and my friend Chris from Hanover Park Illinois in the car with me, it was very foggy, we could barely see two car lengths ahead of you. And we started smelling this funny odor, this real foul smelling odor like this skunky kind of smell. I had noticed a hand sticking out into the road, and my friend had noticed me looking out on the side of the road, and he had looked and he had seen whatever it was, it was huge, it was really large, it was whitish, gray and black, streaks in it. It was hairy, it was reaching out towards my car, it scratched a small piece of pin striping from my car. The fingers were either pointed or had quite the nails on them, I did not get any facial detail but it was frightening, it was very frightening. And now as long as I think about this, not a day goes by that I don't, and I know a day won't go by that I won't think about it. I can remember like it was just yesterday." in case you're wondering, Tom was a teenager when he saw this and coming back from a wedding reception with friends with his car and maybe they smelled weed. I'm just saying that's all I'm saying. Um, this next account is from a man named Ricky Sanchez. Um, and I'll be sharing a good chunk of what he said on the documentary that I'll talk about in a couple minutes here. But he lives out towards the Horicon march area, which is I think about 70 miles north ish of Milwaukee area. Um, and it's, um, it sits right on this marsh, which is really pretty. It's kind of the area my husband grew up in, so I'm really familiar with it but has a lot of wild life and even if you kind of know what you're looking at, it's kind of scary sometimes to be out there at night. But, um, this is just a very interesting story. So in between a couple of really long quotes from him, I'm going to share something that was on the documentary, the broke up, these two long quotes because I think it's really interesting and it adds to the story. So here we go: “2017 is when it all started at my property. It all started one night around one o'clock. I walked outside with a head lamp, we don't have, like we're out in the country, so there's no lights out, and I saw this large black object in the property but beside the silhouette which really could focus with the headlamps were the two eyes." I just want to chime in and say that some of these accounts difficult to read because I have a thing for grammar and I want to correct them, but I'm not, so if I'm stumbling, that's why. Back to the quote! Didn't really pay much attention to it because it was really low to the ground, so I kept walking towards the car. As I got to the trunk of the car I glanced at again, and it was slowly walking crouched down to the ground but towards me. So I'm trying to figure out what is this? So I walked towards it a little bit, and it walked backwards while still looking at me. That sparked my curiosity because it was coming towards me, the cat normally doesn't come towards me, I put the headlamp on brighter and kind of walked towards it, and it tried to back in the same position. So I walked towards it more and it kept on walking backwards and backwards while still looking at me, and still looking at me walked back until it reached one of the trees on the property. Flipped up, looked at me, now it's eyes shine at my height and it just stood and stared at me. I'm still trying to figure out what the hell because now it's higher up, so my headlamp can't really focus on what it is. Brought the water in, brought the dogs inside, by the time I went back out it was gone.” 'For the next few weeks repeated activity would occur on Ricky's property, including multiple sightings of strange shapes moving through the fields and forests surrounding his house. On more then one occasion he saw not one, but multiple pairs of strange glowing eyes peering at him from the darkness. As Ricky began to search for answers as to what was prowling on his farm he began to investigate other sightings of upright canids in the surrounding area. Soon the activity would extend to his neighbors homes including the house located closest to his.' “So according to my neighbor, which is my nextdoor neighbor he gets up to work at two o'clock in the morning. He puts his trash in the back of his pickup truck, and drives out to the front of the road, picks up his trash, goes to the corner, puts it down. But he's hearing something from the truck, as he turns around to go back towards his truck he sees this dog like, wolf like creature in front of his pickup truck pacing back and forth, looking at him. He froze, it was in a kind of crouched down position but not completely on fours, looking at him as it paced back and forth. He got into his truck and went to work after he got his composure back because he didn't know what it was. Probably a week after, this was mostly every week, we were outside with a bonfire me and my neighbor, and my dad, my dad comes home from Springfield, Mass for vacation. My dad had gone inside, so it was one of those days we decided to just call it quits because there were too many mosquitoes and go inside. When we threw water on the fire it was looking at us from the other side of our field of our property. His eye shine was probably at my height, but you could see a silhouette, it wasn't on all fours, it wasn't starting erectile, it looked like it was scared. It looked terrified, it ran. While it was on the grass it ran on two legs. When we got to the trail, it's already overgrown, so you can't see through the treeline, it's already June. So you know, you have bushes and everything, you can't see, so I got kind of iffy, I told him let's head back because if this guy is either side we don't have a lot of space between us to react. So by then I told my neighbor I think it's time for us to go inside.” yeah. I'm sorry. Some of these quotes like since I heard these people say them, I'm trying to stick to a, how they said them. So I'm sorry that it's not like in my normal nice quote reading voice. The next long quote is from a man named Lee Hampel: “I cut hay, and it was ready to be bailed on a Sunday in September 2013. So I basically went down the road to a couple of local farmers, and I said I need help getting hay up, will you guys come and help, and they said, sure we'll come and help. So they did. And after we got done, the one guys said, he said well you know the Beast of Bray Road lives back on your property there. He said, oh yeah, he said, my wife saw it, and another farmer saw it, and then he's telling me another farmer saw it. The one farmer who had seen it on Bray Road, eating a raccoon. And I go okay, sure, you know, so forth. So a couple days later I was driving down Bowers Road and there was a raccoon so I took it and threw it outback on my property line, and go back two days later, and here the raccoon is cut open, and the intestines are gone. So then I, couple days later, I got a badger, it was dead on the road, roadkill, put it down in the hole, three days later it's out of the hole like 10-15 feet away, and a badger weighs 20-25 pounds. So I know a birds not picking this thing up, and there's no path, the grass is all still around this. So what I do is reach down and take it out. I said so alright some guys coming back on my property and doing this, that's crazy. So then I started setting up cameras." And the um, the documentary goes on to like break this up and you have like Linda Godfrey's take on it. You have like the narrator's take on it. It's really interesting. So when I tell you about it in a minute, go watch it. "I basically had a deer out for three years, three to four years. There was things happening with the deer and the lights, they were very close together. And then a mist came and like cloaked it, and then the deer's gone. There's these five toed, seven pad tracks that I have many pictures of and castings off along the edge of the field. I've gone to the Field Museum, they sent me to a track expert, who said these are not tracks, these are not animals. They said, you can go to home depot and buy stilts and walk around your field and make those tracks. There's nobody walking around my field with stilts. I tried universities, University of Wisconsin, I tried to talk to them. I've tried VNR, they tell me it's an abnormal coyote, and they've looked at the tracks, oh that's an abnormal coyote. I believe it exists, I've seen it. I have evidence, I'm past that, now I want to to know where is it coming from? Does it really live here? Why does it need food at all, does it actually use it for food? That's my pursuit.”" Lee's story is really interesting and Linda talks a lot more about like some of these lights and some things going on. Um, if you want to see you, the beasts of Bray road, please note that the land around Bray road is privately owned. It is under increasing development. People who see you on their land, will call the neighbors to let them know there's some random person there and we'll call you on the sheriff and report you for trespassing. You have to obtain permission from land owners if you want to walk in their fields or the woods right there. Honestly, you'd be better off camping. Um, there's a lot of campgrounds around the area who and, and they have like a lot of hiking trails. So like do that. Um, also some assholes keep stealing the Bray road sign. It's not cool. That is a criminal acts. It is disrespectful of the Goddamn town. Leave signs alone. Okay. Of course, if you're lucky or unlucky, I guess you'll wind up being one of the many people who have seen a similar creature around the world. If not, go watch this documentary. It's called the Bray road beast. It's available for free on Amazon prime right now. The documentary features interviews with people who've had firsthand encounters, um, interviews with Linda Godfrey, with John Fredrickson, um, and a lot more, um, Ricky Sanchez and Lee Hampel shared theirs. Um, so did Tom Brichda, Duh. So those are all from the documentary itself. It's an interesting film for a cinematography perspective. Uh, the recreation's are little. Oh, awful. I mean it's from Wisconsin, it's going to be cheesy. Ah, but, um, the actual footage of like driving down roads and stuff, they, they interject some weird like static things and you know, uh, pixelization and things like that. It has the feeling of like being very related to the movie footage from the ring, like while they're watching the shitty VCR shape. So keep that in mind. Um, I, I've already found like a couple of problems with the documentary. It's interesting. Um, I don't think there, there was a lot of hype here locally for it to come out and people were really excited and when I came out, it just, it's not great. It's only an hour and six minutes. Uh, it's just really upsetting to me personally because I think they could've done a better job, especially with Linda involved in this. Like, hello, can you just do this? But you know, it's still pretty interesting and I'll link to it in the show notes. For those of you who would like to take a look at it. Um, as I said, don't expect anything. Super Fantastic. So that's the piece of prey road. Um, there have been sightings at other points in time, but not quite as maybe reputable or well known. So I left some out. And you know, it's not too difficult to find those by just doing a Google search or duck duck go search or wherever you search. Um, I'll put the uh, uh, put a bunch of links for further reading and that include my sources in the show notes. Um, some of the things from the original sources, I found some better information. Um, so some dates were altered to make them actually what it looks like. It happened like closer to the actual time period. But yeah, it was, it was a really interesting thing to dive into and I'm really glad that, um, it just so happened that the Amazon prime, like having this documentary just recently happened. So it was nice to be able to like watch that last night and be able to talk about it. Um, and considering doing some kinds of mini episodes where I do reviews of documentaries, um, shitty movie and other things that are related to Wisconsin. So if that's something you're interested in, let me know. Um, I might just put it on Patreon and see if that goes somewhere. We'll see. Um, for now I think that's all. I'll have an interesting story next time. I think there's, um, there's some really interesting kidnapping stories that have happened about this time of year and, um, that are recently, you know, picking up steam again, um, cold the case kidnappings from decades ago. So I think I'm going to cover one of those for the next episode unless I find something more timely. Um, and if you were keeping track of the Jayme Closs case, I believe that, um, Jake Patterson's next arraignment day is coming up in June or July. So there will probably be some upcoming mini episodes about that too. All right. Um, like always, you can make sure to reach out to me on social media or via email if you have some thoughts you'd like to share. Um, and make sure to go check out the podcast And That's Why We Drink. Um, I'm sure they'll probably be releasing some of the Madison episodes coming up soon. Um, and they might already have the Milwaukee went up. I'd have to check am I'm a couple episodes behind myself because work has been interesting, so make sure to go check them out. And then, um, next episode I'll also have a trailer from another podcast that I'll be sharing so that, um, you know, those of you who are interested in checking out other things, no. What cool things to check out until next time, please take care. You just listened to the Spooky Sconnie podcast. It is produced every two weeks by me, Kirsten Schultz. The intro, outro music is from Purple Plant. You can find show notes and more over at spookysconnie.podbean.com, including a transcript in case you missed anything. Take a minute and rate and subscribe if you can. You'll help more people see the show by rating and you won't miss a single episode if you subscribe, and that's pretty dope. You can support the show over at patreon.com/spookysconniepodcast and you can email me anything you'd like me to know at spookysconniepodcast@gmail.com. Meantime, sleep tight. Don't let the badgers bite. Bye.

Content note: mention of suicide, anti-semitism In this week's belated episode, I talk about the witches of Whitewater, the Morris Pratt Institute, and how traditional views of what's 'weird' shift throughout time. Don't forget to check out the True Crime Podcast Festival in Chicago. Look, I know it's not until July, but it was SNOWING today and I need something to look forward to in my new older age. Photo of the Morris Pratt Institute from Wisconsin Historical Images Resources Second Salem Whitewater college paper on hauntings Spine-tingling tales from a weird site Roots of Whitewater's witch lore Whitewater Historical Society on the Morris Pratt Institute WPR piece on the MPI MPI site In Frightening Times, Witchcraft Rediscovers Its Political Roots You can’t control the government—but you can hex it Why millennials are ditching religion for witchcraft and astrology Intimate photos of modern-day witches across America 9 Myths About Witchcraft That Modern-Day Witches Like Me Are Tired of Hearing Anti-Semitic Legends Why Do Witches Wear Pointy Hats? Transcript Welcome to another edition of the Spooky Sconnie Podcast, the podcast that talks about everything, wonderfully creepy, spooky, criminal, and weird in the state of Wisconsin. I'm your host, Kirsten Schultz. And before we dive in to today's very interesting topic, I do just want to remind everybody that I will be at the true crime podcast festival in Chicago that's coming up in July on the 13th. It's a Saturday, it's just the one day, but it's like all day. We did get some more details that um, there's going to be a meet and greet portion of the event with a kind of a relaxed atmosphere and that podcasters are going to be around in the main hall, um, so that you can come meet with us and hang out. So you know, come hang out. The website for that is tcpf2019.com and you can get your tickets and see all the cool stuff going on. I apologize for this episode being late. Um, yesterday was my birthday and I chose to go get drunk and eat a hamburger instead of recording my podcast. But also I have just started a new full time job and my schedule's been a lot busier because of that and because of some of the other volunteer stuff I'm doing. So I just didn't have time to record. I mean I probably did, let's be honest, but I didn't really. ----more---- So, um, for today's episode we're going to be talking about the witches of Whitewater and as I was digging into this, it's really interesting and it's part of why I do a lot of research on the topics I'm covering because if you just kind of take a cursory Google search, um, things you'll find are, you know, like haunted stories of, of people relaying information from another person about like the campus of UW-Whitewater or being haunted and things like that. And a lot of that stuff is actually not entirely true - surprise. And so what I'm going to be talking about today is more about not only, you know, things that are supposedly haunted but also debunking some of the other issues like I do. In the late 19th century, whitewater began being referenced to as the Second Salem and why water is really interesting because it's about an hour from both Milwaukee and Madison. So it's a little bit more south of both of those cities. Um, and it's right at the edge of the kettle moraine state forest. So there's kind of a lot of greenery and a lot of stuff that's already kinda spooky. Anyway, so the tales about Whitewater being haunted popped up. Um, as I said, it was the late 19th century - the late 1800s hundreds - and that was about the same time that the Morris Pratt institute was built in town. The institute was known for Teaching Spiritualism, and that was a really popular belief during the 1800s and incorporated things like seances and mediums and a lot of the spooky stuff we discuss today, Ouija boards, et Cetera. So there were regular lectures at the institute about, um, paranormal items, psychic items, and they also taught people how to be better and mediums, which is interesting. The building supposedly also had an all white room that was used to conduct seances and, um, a couple of the articles that I found had some really influential people involved, um, within Whitewater itself. So as somebody who's an archivist or historian for Whitewater, another person who's a historian that really focuses on the area as well. Um, so I'll be quoting them throughout this episode too. Morris Pratt was someone who was born in New York and he built the institute in Whitewater in 1899 ish is what it was finished. It wound up being a three story building, had two auditoriums and one of those was big enough to hold 400 people. Morris Pratt's dive into spiritualism was interesting. It was around 1840s and 50s when he became interested in it. And that's a pretty popular, um, subject for that time period. There have been a lot of podcasts to kind of go over what spiritualism is, what it isn't the rise of spiritualism so I'm not going to go into that because this would be another really long episode. Um, but during that time period, not only did Pratt get really interested in spiritualism, he really got serious about practicing it. In the 1880s, he met with a medium here from Wisconsin named Mary Hayes-Chynowith and she really focused on using her skills to heal and then also give advice to rich people naturally. She had, um, told Pratt to invest in land in northern Wisconsin and that land turned out to have some of the richest iron ore in the state. And Pratt got super rich. Um, naturally it probably didn't take her to, to convince him to do this. The state of Wisconsin was really going through a large population boom at the time. People moving in, a lot of lumber jack-related things and companies getting set up here and you know, people were finding iron ore already in the far north part of the state. So yeah, Pratt took the time to find land and uh, and bought it and had an iron ore mine and became extremely rich. And I guess in those conversation with Chynowith, he promised that if he ever like made it rich because of her assistance that he would somehow invest in teaching spiritualism to others. So he began building what he referred to often as the 'temple of science' in Whitewater using the profits from the sale of his mining stock. Of course the residents of Whitewater weren't super enthused like at all. And then would always refer to as Pratts folly, which I think is interesting. In April of 1888, um, that's when the, they broke ground and began to actually construct the building. And by December the building was getting closer to completion and editor, an editor of a local paper, the Whitewater Register, got a grand tour. So, um, he was really very hush hush about what this building was actually supposed to be for - a lot of rumors began circulating throughout the community and you know, people knew he was very into spiritualism, but a lot of people didn't really understand what that was. And so there were a lot of rumors flying around, a lot of gossip about what does this man, what is he doing here? What is he doing to our town? Who is he going to windup inviting into the town? And even as he's giving this newspaper editor the tour, he's really vague about it, right? So what he says is that he 'hopes it may prove a useful factor in the education, morally, mentally, scientifically, and philosophically of that class of society that needs it most.' The editor summarized it as 'let us give him the credit he deserves of making the splendid improvement, which adds to the beauty and business of our city. And having done it without a selfish motive,' which I think is a nice touch. But of course the following year, um, when it opened, things were not as great. And I just want to go back. I think I said 1899 when it opened was 1889. Um, so April of that year they published an opening - Um, you know, a little thing that said they were opening in the register. So it was the opening and dedication of m Pratt sanitarium and hall of Psychic Science. And actually what's happening this weekend, April 26th, 27th and 28th, the announcement didn't wind up being written by the editor of the newspaper, but it was something that like Pratt and his pals had submitted and had publish. The next issue though of the newspaper talked a bit about the dedication of the building and it wasn't great. It didn't go well. Um, the dedication wound up being buried within the newspaper was very short and the editor was not thrilled with what he'd heard of the ceremony. He was really critical about the spiritualists that were speaking there and of how, um, critical they were of organized mainstream religion at the time. So that was kind of, I think, their motive behind hiding really the, the report on the dedication. So, you know, that wasn't a great start. Things were still really tense. In December of that year, Pratt had issued a challenge to the clergy within the city, um, and wanted to debate them on religious issues and he publishes it in this newspaper that isn't thrilled with him and I don't know how he keeps being able to do that. Um, he proposed a debate topic and it was 'resolved that the so called teachings of Jesus Christ as found in the new testament are immoral and their tendencies.' So, you know, no one really jumped into that debate. So you can imagine in January of the next year, he again issued an invitation for people to come to the institute and see what it was like. He was a lot more friendly at this point though, probably realizing that he had come off real standoffish the year earlier. So his call this time was to 'both young and old, the president and professors of our schools, the clergy, lawyers, doctors, and business men to meet . . . for a social and intellectual feast, and if they see fit to lay out a plan for future work to build up and maintain a higher state of civilization.' Yeah. Other than that, there really wasn't much within the newspaper about what was going on at the temple. Um, it was either because Pratt was being really reserved and quiet or because of the editor and their run-ins. Given the way the building was set up, it wound up being used for a lot of lectures and meetings and it really wasn't at the time set up as a school or a college, but more like where spiritualists from around the country you could come through as they were like going on speaking tours and um, that people could come and meet them and hear what they had to say, or that spiritualist relatively locally, you could also come and meet and mingle together. There was always an evening lecture on Sundays that was open to everybody, so that tended to be then those kinds of lectures were scheduled. By early 1902 Pratt was now 80 years old and the temple wasn't sure it was going to do. He decided to about that time period form something called the Morris Pratt Institution Association and then gave the temple to them and they made plans to run the temple, um, as a more formal spiritualist school that not only had classes on spiritual isn't, but also general education. And they did this rather quickly. So by late June of 1902, the newspaper reported that the meeting of the trustees was really successful and that public interest was really high, um, about turning the building into a school. And so at that time is when it was actually formally, um, renamed as the Morris Pratt Institute. The full course of study consisted of two different areas. So the first area was general education stuff - so grammar, rhetoric, writing, lit, history, geography, all the good stuff, right? And that was pretty typical of what people were expected to learn at secondary schools throughout the country. Um, and was really helpful, I think at this point because there really wasn't an extended organized school system. The second area of study was only open to people who were practicing spiritualists and it included things like psychic research, comparative religion, evolution. And Bible study as it relates to the principles of spiritual wisdom. Like, dude, I want to take those classes. Tuition was really, really reasonable. It's $50 a year. Um, and then plus you got a room that was $1.50 to $2 a week. Only girls were allowed to board at the meeting or at the building, excuse me - while dudes were boarded in private homes instead. And even though there was a separation between Gen ed and um, spiritualism - it didn't give degrees. Um, you could not get a college degree from the institute. It was more set up like a, like a boarding high school. They could become really well versed in being a medium, um, giving lectures, working as a spiritualist, but also could, you know, have a really nice firm background in their studies from which to um, ease into college or something else later on. And this was really, they saw themselves as offering ways for people to pursue self improvement activities. That was, whether they were spiritualists or not. And I couldn't find anything about how many people actually took the institute classes to become mediums and to just go through, um, you know, the Gen ed curriculum. But, um, there was an article in 1917 that reported students that had come to the institute, um, from all parts of the United States. The, the, the current number was about 25 people in the school of the time, mostly coming from the Midwest. As I said earlier, the community kind of just keeps being really unsure about how they feel about the institute. Um, you know, on the one hand it was this really helpful space and provided needed education and was relatively low cost a boosted the city's economy. And on the other hand, you know, it was still weird. It was not normal. Um, one thing I saw some of the students at the State Teacher's College, which was also in Whitewater, would go to the Sunday services just to like make fun of everything. And it seems like the institute became kind of a running joke throughout the town During the Great Depression in the 1930s, the institute really struggled and wound up closing its doors, but it did move to Milwaukee. There's a local historian named Carol Cartwright and I found several interviews with her about the institute and about like haunted Whitewater. And she thinks that Whitewater residents were distrustful of the Institute for a couple of reasons. So one is that spiritualism was much more popular in larger cities than isolated kind of rural areas. And Whitewater, even though it's grown to a sizable city, at least in Wisconsin, which is not saying much, um, it's still really rural. It's still pretty. And you know, if people want to do something cultured or something fancy, they would just drive to Milwaukee or Madison. Like the Whitewater is not a fancy place. Um, it's still today. So, and then the fact that only spiritualists could go to seances or attend certain programs made everybody wonder what was actually happening. Like what is going on? Are they devil worshipers? Are they sacrificing babies? All of those kinds of things. And of course, once the school stopped operating there, everything became embellished. It turned into like, oh yeah, like some of the other students at other places would come and mock this place too. Oh yeah, no, we totally saw witches from that place, like practicing witchcraft. So I dunno. Um, this building was torn down in 1962 but before that it served as a women's dorm and the forties and 50s. Um, Cartwright said “You can imagine how those stories picked up steam. There’s a lot of confusion between who the spiritualists were and what they were doing as opposed to other occult practices. Many of the spiritualist mediums were women. They were engaging in nontraditional activities for women, so making that step from mediums to witches was easy for some people to take." Before the institute was established, there were actually already rumors of witches throughout Whitewater. I mean, it's probably true of just about everywhere. Gotta be honest. Um, but one of the legends, um, talks about the fact that there was an active coven in the late 19th century that had ceremonies and tunnels and kept an altar either in the field behind, um, one of the dorms at university or in one of the cemeteries. And supposedly all these things are like buried where they once stood. So like the altars buried where they were, that once stood. And then like there's several dead coven members that are supposedly buried around there. I don't know. Um, it's an interesting place. One of the other legends talks about the three cemeteries in Whitewater and proposes that they form a triangle known as the witches triangle. A home buildings and land on the sides of the triangle are supposedly haunted and um, one of those cemeteries called Calvary Cemetery has Gates that supposedly close on unsuspecting freshmen that sneak in at night? So there's, um, Calvary Cemetery, Oak Grove Cemetery and Hillside Cemetery are the ones that are supposedly positioned in a perfect isosceles triangle. Um, there are stories from Oak Grove Cemetery. Um, it said that it was the final resting place of this ax murderer named Mary Worth. And legend says on Halloween night she can be spotted among the tombstones. And it's interesting because that's supposedly from Oak Grove and then Cartwright shared that according to another legend, she's buried in an unmarked crypt in Hillside. And the problem is though, there's literally no evidence she ever existed, not in city directories, not in the census, no birth or death certificates, nothing. And that's not - it's hard, right, because it's not that uncommon for people to like not have many written records during that time period by Wisconsin actually did pretty well with some of those things. So Cartwright believes that the stories circulated for so long that like eventually a composite of somebody named Mary Worth just kind of popped out of them. Another story is about the stone water tower in Stairin Park. Stories say witches would surround the tower at night and perform rituals in the park. An iron fence was put up around the tower with barbed wire spikes pointed inward as if it was trying to keep something in rather than people out. The tower sits just south of Wells Hall, which is also said to be super haunted since being built in the late sixties. And that's actually not the only student housing hall that has questioning stories. Um, in 1981, the Alpha Sigma Sorority heard loud noises coming from their basement while they ate dinner. Bricks of the basement floor were scattered around everywhere when they went to check it out, revealing a tunnel that had never been seen before. Story of that goes on to talk about the tunnel system having been used by witches as a way of traveling between the town's oldest mansion sized homes without being spotted by civilians. And here's the other interesting thing, right? That actually exists. Um, the tunnels are probably, um, from the underground railway, from hiding people from them, um, from, from, you know, slave owners trying to find these people and, um, and as a part of the system that moved them up towards Canada, it's just really interesting. Um, yeah, everything I saw said that, you know, those exist. I don't know. I'm going to take that with a grain of salt. The most recent story about witches took place in 1982, three students supposedly witnessed a late night ritual on the beach, near Whitewater Lake, and during the ritual it appeared as if a huge object was coming out of the lake and when they saw that they split naturally. Another interesting, um, rumor is that there's a locked book in the special collections section in the basement of Anderson Library. We're immersed say that the dark contents of the book have driven three students and a professor to commit suicide. Supposedly one person who borrowed the book wound up being locked in an insane asylum. Because of that, the book is not hidden under locking key at there is now hidden under locking key at the library. If you ask to see the book, supposedly you'll be expelled. Um, and a librarian at the, this location [acutally an historian named Weston] helps clear that up: "The only locked book we own is actually a Catholic hymnal. We think the stories about it come from the fact that up until 1989, 100 years after the Morris Pratt Institution was founded, the storage we used for the book was a locked cage because it’s the only storage unit we had. A locked book in special collections got this image of being dangerous. However, none of the people who have ever talked about this Catholic hymnal have given us a publisher, a title, an another, no date, nothing.” It's unknown if this mysterious book remains unlabeled for reasons or if it's just a coincidence. In 1909 there were large ice flows in the lake in June. There's a lot of weird stuff that happens in Whitewater. In 1923 some fishermen said their boat turned over and they were dragged underwater by a creature with large tentacles. They had a really hard time getting back up and when they came back up, they were supposedly covered with small bite marks. In fall 2003 while hiking the trails near Calvary, a professor and several other people supposedly saw a strange flying objects. They were sure it was an alien and posted fliers asking others who had seen it to let them know. Of course it wouldn't be, uh, a story full of shitty haunting rumors if I didn't share that supposedly many of this, these disturbances are caused by the development of the city and the ruining of Indian burial grounds. We've already talked about this, right? How that's bullshit? And some fucking colonialist narrative that does not need to be continually perpetuated by anybody? Okay, cool. One of the interesting things I found too, um, in articles that I read were some personal story is related to these hauntings and spooky things. So I wanted to share some of them cause I thought they were interesting. This first one is from someone named Jeff: "I live in Whitewater, and according to legends, the whole town is haunted. The university that is in town was originally built as a school for mediums and research into the paranormal. I have been told that all possible ways to leave town require going over running water and that the cemeteries form a five-pointed star when looked at from above. There is a hill behind the student dorms that is supposed to where a coven of witches (evil ones, of course) meet. Also, an apartment building was once the residence of a guy who fancied himself a master of the black arts, and is haunted. Whitewater has been referred to as the "Second Salem." I can attest that some areas of town just really give me the creeps. The problem is this: There is reputed to be documentation telling about the weird things in town. However, the town council has made sure that none of that exists in town anymore." I don't know. I just seems to me that sometimes some of these people don't question anything they hear like at all. I don't understand that. Anyway, I like this, this next story a lot better. There a man named Dave Saalsa - It's s a a l s a - and he remembers walking his dogs one evening across the wooded lawns of Whitewater's Hillside Cemetery. The animals completely stopped and stood extremely still, and Dave looks up to see what the dogs are looking at, but he doesn't see anything - until he sees it, right? He says “Right across from a crypt, I saw this full-bodied apparition of a woman. She was floating up the hill.” The owner of the Quiet Huts Sports in Whitewater - That's Dave's job - wasn't sure what it was he saw, but people who come to his store have shared really similar stories of encounters at that cemetery. “I don’t know,” Dave said. “I don’t discount it. I’ve talked to people who have seen firsthand some strange things. There are logical explanations for things, but there are also legitimate goings-on that can’t be explained away.” His longtime interest in local history really became ignited when he was a student at Whitewater in the 1970s he was working on this class project and wound up interviewing a local historian for it and heard a lot of local budgets, including the head of Mary Worth, who we've already talked about. Um, you know, one of the articles that I found earlier that I referenced like earlier in the podcast was that she was an ax murderer. Here, she's supposedly a self proclaimed witch, and Dave learned in this conversation with the historian that Mary Worth put a curse on a Whitewater manufacturer of wagons, and the company's owners died not long afterwards. People now living at the former house of one of those owners named Lucius Winchester have reported here in footsteps without seeing anyone and light switches mysteriously turning on and off. Dave has heard of a coven that still supposedly practice and local cemeteries according to local cemetery workers, circles of stones can be found around the properties and a pyramid shaped cap that topped the monument on the gravesite of Morris Pratt was stolen at some point back. “Back in 1971 when I was still a student, on Halloween night, one of the students broke into the crypts at the cemetery, stole a coffin and brought it to the fountain on the mall. We have to admit we have a rich history in Whitewater of all kinds of things, from stops along the Underground Railroad to a school for spiritualism, whose founder promised to connect people with the departed," Dave said, and there you have it. Is Whitewater haunted? Are there still really witches? I have no idea. I think it's plausible. Um, I think that most places probably have more occult-related activities than anyone realizes. But I also think that the notion of which is being creepy, people with pointy hats who were all black and hang out in cemeteries is outdated. That's not what a witch is anymore. Witches are everyday people. Witches are people who use their powers for good and for evil. And you know, the mark of a witch is not necessarily the ridiculous, the overdone antisemitism of, you know, witch drawings of days past. And I think too, one thing to note as we talk about witchcraft is that within the last few years, More women and other femme people have gotten involved in witchcraft. And it's not anything like, it's not a bad thing. Um, for them, it represents a way to take control of your life. In a way to honor nature sometimes. Um, like for people who engage more in Wicca related activities. It's also I think, um, a giant fuck you to people like Donald Trump, um, who dislike the idea of women having power or of, of anybody of any, um, gender identity that is not a cis male having power. And it's really helped people find others who are likeminded, right? Just like listening at creepy podcasts, um, you run into somebody and you're like, oh, I love purity podcasts, do you, and that's an instant bond, that's instant shared experience that you have. And it's the same with being on a running team or going biking with the same friends every week. Oh. Um, you know, being a part of online patient activity groups or you know, things like that are all ways to build shared experience and community. And just some of us take weird routes to it, or I shouldn't say weird, I should say nontraditional routes to finding community. And I think we have to remember that those, those ideas changed throughout time, right? Back during Morris Pratt stays, they probably never would have thought of the Internet. They would never have thought that anybody would be listening to like a podcast. Um, so what seems nontraditional in society's view - and something maybe impossible in the views of people around when Morris Pratt was still alive - that's changing and that changes with every generation. And as we grow and we figure out what we like and don't like, um, we, we tend to push society the way that we're thinking depending on how many numbers we have to, to influence that push. But, um, all of that is to say which is they're not at all like the sisters from Hocus Pocus, they are not all like the wicked witch. Um, they can be everyday people that just liked to do cool things. I'm not a witch, but also like I have friends who are, and you know what, that's kind of awesome and we just have to step back and realize that being a, which isn't anything different than, you know what it's been for the last several hundred years because I, for the fact that it's a lot more different than the societal ideologies related to being witches are right, the stigma associated to being a witch. So I'll put some links in the show notes. Um, not only the links I referenced and pulled a lot of texts from, from the episode like I always do, but also some links about witchcraft and about what witches look like now and what they do now. Um, and more people becoming witches in the wake of Donald Trump's election. So that's, that's Kirsten's rant corner for this episode. Um, I'm not sure what I'm going to do next week. I'll probably try to pull another cryptid out. I think The Beast of Brey Road looks like a good possibility, although I have a busy couple of weeks, so we'll see how that goes. Maybe something slightly shorter again, but stay tuned. Make sure you checkout the true crime podcasts festival in Chicago. If you are in the Midwest. Um, I would love to see you and hang out and I'm going to try to get some goodies to have at the table. If I have a table, I don't know exactly what's happening with that yet, but you know I'll have some goodies on me with the logo on it. Um, so that you can maybe win some, maybe purchase some, however you'd like to handle that. And um, the other update I have is the thing I'm going to be doing a couple of minisodes a month, maybe if I could swing it after this month is over and call them badger bits. Um, and just do like a really quick, not like biography but kind of have some influential Wisconsin related people. I think that Kinda sounds fun and I stole it from my husband, so I tend to stay a lot of things from him, but he freely offered it, so whatever. So you know, stay tuned for that if that's something you're interested in. And for now, have a wonderful couple of weeks until I speak with you again. You just listened to the Spooky Sconnie podcast. It is produced every two weeks by me, Kirsten Schultz. The intro, outro music is from Purple Plant. You can find show notes and more over at spookysconnie.podbean.com, including a transcript in case you missed anything. Take a minute and rate and subscribe if you can. You'll help more people see the show by rating and you won't miss a single episode if you subscribe, and that's pretty dope. You can support the show over at patreon.com/spookysconniepodcast and you can email me anything you'd like me to know at spookysconniepodcast@gmail.com. Meantime, sleep tight. Don't let the badgers bite. Bye.

This week, let's talk about the father of Earth Day! He did a lot of great stuff - like pushing for side effects to be listed with medications - and preached some racisms. Why do people suck so much? Resources Wikipedia Nelson Earth Day Founding of Earth Day Death-related article 95 speech on Earth Day Is the way we think about overpopulation racist? I’m an environmental journalist, but I never write about overpopulation. Here’s why. (Roberts) Environmentalism’s Racist History Perpetuating neo-colonialism through population control: South Africa and the United States Is Thanos Right About Killing People In 'Avengers: Infinity War'? Featured image from NASA Transcript Welcome to another edition of the Spooky Sconnie Podcast, the podcast that talks about everything, spooky paranormal, and weird in the state of Wisconsin. Since it's April, I thought that it would be remiss of me to not discuss the founder of Earth Day and the actual founding. And it was created by a Wisconsinite naturally. His name was Gaylord Nelson and he was born on June 4th, 1916 in a city called Clear Lake. Um, it's located up in Polk county which is kind of the upper north western corner of the state and it's about an hour away from Minneapolis. Nelson's father's parents - so his parental grandparents - were immigrants from Norway who moved to the area in 1878 and I couldn't find much about his maternal grandparents, but his mother was a nurse. Um, at least she completed the training to do that, but she spent most of the time kind of at home, spending time with the kids, that kind of stuff. ----more---- She taught Nelson a lot about the natural landscape and the world around him - while Nelson's father who was a doctor and very politically active, taught him about political life. And this reminded me a lot actually of college in an interesting way. Um, one of my history professors in college who I love, uh, we had a course on feminism in history and we talked a lot about the two spheres of the world in about the same time period. You had the domestic sphere, which was the realm of the woman who, you know, cleaned house and all of that. And then you had the public sphere, which was the realm of the man who did all of the outward things and voted and all that crap. So I had, this was a really clear cut example of that, which was interesting. In the time period we're talking about Clear Lake was not a great space to be in. There was a lot of pollution. Um, there was a lot of poverty. Of course, we're talking leading up to the Great Depression, which was not great anywhere, but especially in kind of tiny towns and rural areas. The Great Depression, you know, brought a lot of itinerant workers to the area. Um, a lot of people got grumpy about itinerant workers and not only was there an uptick in just general assholery, um, there was a lot of racism, a lot of extra bigger tree going on. And, and it's not exactly xenophobia because that's not, it's not exactly what this is what you can have people coming in from other spaces that are not your own space, I guess for lack of a better word xenaphobia is what was going on. Um, a bunch of the county's farmers actually went on strike in 1933 and it forced the local creamery to close down, which I think was interesting. Um, the works progress administration launched a bunch of projects in the region to do things like build roads, take care of wetlands, built the town's first sewer system, you know, things like that. Um, and Gaylord Nelson actually took a job shoveling stone on one of the crews, um, right after graduating from high school in the mid 1930s. And not only was it a lot of hard work, he also really didn't like the fact that he contributed to disturbing and destroying a lot of really beautiful natural habitats in the area and ruining fresh water in the name of progress. And that kind of pushed him to go to college. He followed his older sisters to San Jose State University. I couldn't figure out for the life of me what is actual major was in some sites said economics. Others said political science. Uh, I guess we don't know. I probably could have found out if I dug deeper, but I did not have time. It's okay. He really loved kind of exploring California and looking at all of the beautiful nature in the area, especially at the time period. And he would always come back home during the summers and worked in a cannery. He graduated in 1939 and in 1942 he also completed a bachelor of law degree at the UW law school here in Madison and was set to begin practicing law, but was quickly drafted into the army. While there he made first lieutenant, trained as a medical technician, um, commanded a segregated black company, and then spent the rest of the in Okinawa and actually met his future wife there who was a nurse named Carrie Lee Dotson. I honestly, I think it's really cute that his path, you know, like I don't know how his father and mother met, but to have to medically minded people in a relationship and then be somewhat medically minded and wind up in a relationship with another person similar. I think it's kind of cute. I'm a nerd. Um, when he came back from the war, the political landscape of Wisconsin was shifting a lot. The Republican Party, and when I'm talking about this right now, I'm not talking about the same Republican Party we see today. We're talking about the Republican Party of Lincoln era ideals. So think slightly more liberal than actual Republicans we think of today. So, they had enjoyed almost an exclusive rule of the state of Wisconsin since, uh, before the civil war. So really long standing and you know, there may be like rifts between groups in the party. There were some third parties, the popped up, but nothing that really stuck around significantly. And during this time period though is when things did start to shift from Lincoln era, republicans to Fox News he era Republicans - obviously, uh, you know, no TV yet, but that's kind of what was happening. And it was, uh, destroying the ideals of the party, shifting the party's platform, shifting who wanted to stay in the party. Um, and this was not something specifically limited to the Republican Party at the time, was kind of a everybody thing. I mean, think about it with the war, with the war ending, with all of the things that had just gone on, um, there was a lot of isolationism like, why the hell did we get in the war in the first place? It's not our business. Um, and that's kind of the, funny enough, that's one of the things that, um, at the time started help shifting, um, political ideologies. It's not much different than today, right? Where we have people questioning why are we getting involved in this conflict or that conflict? And not necessarily thinking about the, the general human rights of people everywhere. I don't know. That's a tangent. Um, so during this time period, Philip and Robert La Follette, um, who, who are the sons of the legendary progressive firebrand fighting Bob La Follette. Um, and we'll, we'll talk about him eventually. They had lead followers out of the Republican Party in 1934 and had suffered a lot of defeat and kind of came back and 46 and in that November, um, Bob the younger lost his Senate seat, which really signaled the end of an era here in Wisconsin. And you know, Gaylord Nelson was like, all right, I am going to try to bring this Republican progressivism to clear lake and I try to be in the state assembly. Let's do it. And he lost. Um, at the time though, he decided he was gonna move back to Madison. So he did that and he offered legal counsel to unions, spent time with a lot of friends from law school, really made some great connections. And then spent a lot of time talking with friends from law school and other spaces about rebranding the Democratic Party and about bringing that progressivism to this side. So what they really wanted to do was link people Milwaukee who were, um, you know, at the time, very pro union really, uh, you had a very large working class and then you had a lot of progressives who were feeling the pain of the shifting ideology and connect them with people in Madison who were and still are very much seen as, uh, a base of intelligence, right. Um, with the school here, with all of the educational opportunities, it's, it's kind of the smart kid town, um, to put up bluntly - not that people, Milwaukee aren't smart, but it's kind of seen as liberal safe haven. So to kind of link these two groups and see what they could do together, um, and see how much they could lift up people in rural areas and around the state. So in 1948 after what the capital times called a 'rip snorting hide tearing kind of campaign,' (oh my God) Um, won a seat in the state senate and he really championed advancing civil rights and reforming the government, um, and really pushing progressive ideals that people had been thinking about when Bob La Follette was really popular. Um, and, and making such big waves. He worked tirelessly throughout the state as the Democratic Party cochair for Wisconsin. And um, thankfully with, with all the work that he put in, um, you know, he, he was able to shift the state's political leanings and not single handedly mind you, but you played a major part. Through a large number of local and then statewide races through the 1950s, things began to change and shift back to more progressive ideologies and Democrats managed to replace Joe McCarthy - Yes, the motherfucker who haunted down leftists - with William Proxmire in 1957 and that was a huge win, not only for the state, but nationally and internationally. We had scared off a lot of entertainers, a lot of writers and artists who were very, very, very left leaning with the whole like Red Communist scare and McCarthy's, uh, for lack of a better term witch hunts. So it was really good to get him out. And maybe at some point if I feel like torturing myself, I will do an episode on him. I'm going to have to do it. I know I am, but not soon. The following year, so 1958 Nelson ran a successful campaign to be the state's second democratic governor of the century and the first governor ever from northern Wisconsin, which is pretty great. Um, he served four years as governor, uh, which was two, two year terms. And throughout his reign in, in the early 1960s, he pushed for better care and better protections for the environment. Um, he took what was at the time, a fairly large set of departments and divisions and Smush them down into the department of Resource Development, um, and established a youth conservation corps, which helped employ over a thousand young people and created green jobs for them where they were doing things to help preserve nature. And I'm really good things across the state. He also fought to earmark $50 million for the outdoor recreation action program, which, you know, bought up thousands of acres of land and converted them into public parks and wilderness areas. And those spaces serve, um, not only adds great spaces for families to visit and exist in, um, and you know, free, uh, entertainment spaces essentially. But they also really helped preserve a lot of wildlife. So I live in Madison. Um, you know, it's not necessarily - when you think of a college town, you don't think of deer walking down the road, you know, League of Turkey's crossing the road in the middle of your morning commute. And those things happen here and they have because we have the natural spaces that allow wildlife to thrive and live alongside humanity in a way that, um, uh, lots of places don't have because they didn't plan for it. And I think to Nelson's credit, um, he really helped create a space where wildlife and humanity could live side by side and not necessarily, um, but has a lot, unless someone's running late for work. And then there's a lot of honking - the Turkeys, uh, in our area that kind of wander about a two mile about area between like the school and our side of, um, like almost heading into Middleton, which is just a block over from us. And we'll see them walking down the sidewalk. They'll wait until they know it's safe to cross. Sometimes they'll stand in front of buses and it's always the dude's, and they will get very puffy and show off all their fancy feathers. And I just imagine Joe Pesci, that's the turkeys voice. I, I just kind of do, I'm gonna fuck you up. Like, I don't know. That is a super tangent too. I am so sorry. Not really though, because now you all envision what I envision every time I see the Turkeys job, she, um, another one of the things that Nelson really worked towards was ending the kind of lobbying system as it was set up then for the state of Wisconsin. If you're familiar with how lobbying works on the national level and how many people who are pro gun get a ton of money from, say the NRA or other, you know, uh, people who don't want to put so many restrictions on tobacco, get money from cigarette companies, et Cetera. Um, it's, I think it's a little better now than it was in the 90s. Thanks to some laws that had passed, but, um, it was bad. It was very bad and that was something similar going on in the state level here in the 60s, uh, like late fifties, early sixties. So he really switched that up. He, um, put a lot of restrictions on lobbyists so that they couldn't do that. He, um, just overall really consolidated the state government departments and made them work more efficiently. He really tried to champion, um, you know, racial - Oh my God, I'm having brain fog and I cannot think of the word that I want to use. Racial equity. Jeez, I'm so sorry. Um, just as an aside, if you don't have chronic illnesses, brain fog is something that's like almost a cognitive delay and you can't think of the right word or you might say Broccoli when you mean to say antidisestablishmentarianism like something that completely doesn't make sense. Anyway. So he really championed, um, racial equity and putting an end to discrimination, um, specifically on the basis of race or religion. Those were his babies. And he envisioned what he is quoted as talking about as "the creation of a social structure founded on quality instead of quantity and moral might instead of military might," which having been through war I'm sure came across really well to like, I've been through this, I helped treat people through this. It sucked. It was awful. Let's not do the military thing. In 1962, he was elected to the National Senate and served three consecutive terms. So he wound up serving from 1963 to 1981. And when he got there in [inaudible] 63, he basically immediately signed on as a cosponsor of President Kennedy's civil rights bill and participated in the march on Washington. Um, he also convinced JFK to start a national speaking tour to discuss conservation and environmental issues. And as President Johnson came into power, he really, um, Nelson pushed for advanced civil rights legislation and ending poverty. He really, really wanted to fight that. And I'm sure growing up during the Great Depression, um, and in a city where people were very, very hard hit by that pushed him to champion that cause he really saw these, um, things linked to his environmental agenda. Right. Cause it's not just about conserving natural resources, it's about using human resources. Well it's about, you know, uh, if we end poverty, there will be fewer excuses to do things that negatively impact the environment. Um, because we'll be able to live at a baseline that allows us to make smarter decisions and, um, do things that help protect the environment as opposed to negatively impacting it. In 1964 he wrote the following. We cannot let us situation continue in which millions of our fellow citizens do not have a suitable environment in which to live and raise their families. So he proposed a slate of federally funded green jobs. He talked to officials around the country and um, you know, talked a lot with President Johnson about how much, you know, Labor was out there not being utilized. Um, and how if we could create more jobs focused on environmentalism where you are not only help the environment, the create jobs that could help bring families out of the poverty cycle and lift them up. In 1965, he chided President Johnson for not doing enough to stop the lawlessness, terrorism and economic coercion in the Jim Crow south perpetuated against civil rights activists. He worked to secure federal protections for activists as a part of the civil rights act in 1968. He was an early and very passionate critic of the Vietnam War and also really disliked the misappropriation of public funds that was happening. Um, during the time period too. It became clear to him that spending so many public funds on even things like environmental Islam was not going to actually fix things. Yeah. DDT, a pesticide that was developed during this time period, um, and it was sprayed on lawns like here in the Madison area. And we watched as it began showing up and fish and groundwater all over the nation after it was used. Um, you know, other synthetic chemicals and things like detergents or as a result of mining practices and industrial production and pollution, you know, spread it throughout the water. He had smog all over because of no standards on car missions, contaminants in food, um, large numbers of pharmaceuticals showing up in waterways because people would just flush them instead of like turning them into the police, which is probably out of that system got started. Um, and really what he saw, and he talks about this in 1965 is that quote, man cannot live or act apart from his environment. And, and really what he saw was, you know, we were being so wasteful. We were being so thoughtless and careless, um, and not necessarily always have our own accord, right? The average person isn't like, 'oh, nothing's going to happen if I flush these down the toilet.' Like, they've got a other things going on. Right? But how do we lift up through education? How do we offer it up through, um, talking about it through public awareness so that we know that those things are great to do. Right? So he immediately called for sweeping government regulations, bans on pesticides like DDT and the end of the internal combustion engine, bans on dumping and waterways and oceans and even, um, had a constitutional amendment that guaranteed every person had the right to a decent environment, which I think is a fascinating idea. In July of 1967, there was a riot in Milwaukee that, um, turned deadly and I don't know the full story, so we'll probably explore that at some point. But he attributed this to thousands of citizens with inadequate educations, low incomes, poor housing, and poor job opportunities as a soldier in Johnson's war on poverty. He got more excited about that than the president did. He wanted to have a 10 billion with a B dollar program of public works projects and job training. Um, and wow Johnson was excited about that. He was like, I'll give you a 10th of what you asked for. And you know, Nelson proposed a ton of projects and they really took off, including things like the national teacher core, what's trained new educators, particularly a high concentration of people of color to then turn around and teach in impoverished schools. And kids began seeing themselves in their teachers. And I think that is incredibly amazing. During his 1968 reelection campaign, Nelson was praised by Vince Lombardi, the general manager and former coach of the green bay packers as the nation's number one conservationist at our banquet in Oshkosh. And Oshkosh is about an hour southwest of Green Bay or 25 minutes south of Appleton, if you know where those places are. Um, Nelson decided while his campaign, I don't know who exactly made the decision to turn that banquet speech into a radio and television campaign commercial and pissed Lombardi off because Lombardi was, uh, like he and his wife were very republican and the Republican Party was pissed too. So it did not, uh, make him friends with the Lombardy's. Let's just say that in 1970, Nelson called for congressional hearings on the safety of combined oral contraceptive pills, which are famously called the Nelson pill hearings. And as a result of the work that he did, side effect disclosure in patient inserts were required for the bill, which was the first disclosure for a pharmaceutical drug. I'm going to say it again. That was the first disclosure of side effects for a prescribed drug that got to patients. Holy Shit. Like I take a bunch of medications. Okay. Like I am alive because of that literally or inflammation in my body would probably have killed me by now. And the fact that I could potentially not have known about a side effect by being born just a couple of decades earlier, Holy Shit. And to not know which side effects are coming from which medications or side effects or even possible from some medications like birthdays. Great. And we'll get into it. But this, this is what makes Nelson cool in my mind. He made it so that patients knew what we were getting ourselves into and that is bad ass anyway. So, earth day. Or if they began as a teach-in about environmental issues and um, he really, Nelson wanted to propose a day where everyone around the nation could host like a teach in, you know, teachers could teach it to students and people could talk about it in library or universities and, and elsewhere, right, to really talk about environmental problems and what can we do to fix them. And immediately it took off national media, like picked it up and ran with it and his office got flooded by letters of support. Um, so he, he turned around and he created very small national office, um, that was there to help offer support to people around the nation that were going through, um, and creating grassroots efforts to educate and to enact change. He didn't like the idea of something like a top down organization because it never works out the way you want it to. Um, instead, he, he later reflected "earth day planned itself." An estimated 20 million Americans gathered on April 22nd, 1970 to talk about, um, the ecological troubles going on in their cities going on in larger spaces and not only to demand action from each other and to plan direct action, but also to demand action and accountability from their elected officials. And that's important. It really kicked off the, um, environmental decade, right? We think of the 70s, we think of vague he'd be is and Oh, all these people who on a leg not go to war and like not destroy the environment. So weird. Um, with, with all that Nelson did in the 60s, he tried to pass so many things. He tried to get so many things moving and now he was involved in so much. So not only did he, um, create earth, Earth Day, right? He's also involved in clean water act, the National Wild and scenic rivers act, the Federal Pesticides Act, the clean air act, the Environmental Education Act, the national hiking trails and national scenic trails act, and the establishment of the apostle islands national lake shore. That lake shore and where the apostle islands are - it's about two hours east of Duluth, Minnesota or like six hours north of Madison and it's beautiful - the water is gorgeous. I've not been myself, but I look at pictures and I go, 'I need to go to there.' Um, and it's just a gorgeous space and to be able to preserve that so that it's there for everyone to visit and enjoy. It was pretty great. He was also actually a pretty big advocate of small businesses, which I think is cool. He was a chairman of the Senate Small Business Committee and um, led efforts to authorize the first modern White House correspondence on small business, created the system of small business development at universities and really improve the way that federal agencies handle small business and other entities, um, through what's called the Regulatory Flexibility Act. I'm not going to talk about it. It's like over my head. But he did the thing. In 1973 he was one of three senators who opposed the nomination of Gerald Ford to be vice president, the other two word, Thomas Eagleton and William Hathaway. I couldn't figure out why, but I also didn't really look that hard into it. So hmm. After Nelson's 1980 defeat for reelection, he became counselor for the Wilderness Society in January of 1981 in September of 1980 or sorry, in September of 1995 in recognition of all of his work for the environment, he received the Presidential Medal of freedom. He viewed the stabilization of the nation's population as an important aspect of environmentalism. And these are his words: 'The bigger the population gets, the more serious the problems become ... We have to address the population issue. The United Nations, with the U.S. supporting it, took the position in Cairo in 1994 that every country was responsible for stabilizing its own population. It can be done. But in this country, it's phony to say "I'm for the environment but not for limiting immigration."' We're gonna get into that. Trust me. He also rejected the suggestion that economic development should be more important than an um, environmental protection because as he said, "the economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not the other way around." At the end of the Cold War, um, he called for the US and Russia to allocate resources to working on environmental issues. He lobbied friends and Congress to stand up to, um, the vintage McCarthyism of the executive branch after the September 11th terrorist attacks, which I think is cool. Um, and then in the nineties, he really did get into this overpopulation idea. It's bad. We're going to go into it in just a second. I just want to like get to where he dies first and then we're going to go back into this. Um, do, do, do, do, do. So yeah. He received numerous awards and tuning, including two for the United Nations Environment Program. Um, he gave a speech about Earth Day in 1995 where he said some of the following: "All economic activity is dependent upon that environment with its underlying resource base. When the environment is finally forced to file under Chapter 11 because its resource base has been polluted, degraded, dissipated, irretrievably compromised, then, the economy goes down into bankruptcy with it because the economy is just a subset within the ecological system." - which, yeah, I mean, that makes sense to me. "We are dealing with a social, ecological and economic challenge unlike any other in our history. It is a challenge that begs for the kind of dedicated, inspirational leadership provided by Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill in their pursuit of victory in the Second World War. This challenge is far more serious than the military threat to the democratic west in World War n. Nations can recover from lost wars-­witness Germany and Japan--but there is no recovery from a destroyed ecosystem." - which again, like, yeah, that makes sense. In 2002, he appeared on the show To Tell The Truth as a contestant. Um, and then he died of cardiovascular failure at age 89 on July 3rd, 2005. There's a buncha places around the state named after him, including the Gaylord Nelson Institute for Environmental Studies, or it's also just called the Nelson Institute here at Uw Madison. So now let's get into this overpopulation bullshit. So it's not great. It is not great fam. Um, some in the 1990s is when he starts championing this. There's this guy named Paul Ehrlich who is the author of, a classic book in Environmental Studies called the population bomb. And he served as an earth day adviser to Gaylord Nelson. And one of the things that Nelson wanted to push for, um, I think partially because of Ehrlich was for better family planning services and it wasn't because let's make sure people are ready to have kids. Let's make sure you know, people's choices as human beings are respected. It was because of concerns about overpopulation. He pushed the u s to shrink immigration quotas and help other nations establish their own population controls. And you know, people really push back because it's dismissive of things. The immigrants and people who go through asylum or like, apply for asylum. Go through. Um, it doesn't take into account disparities in various parts of the world. So the, the crux of the matter is the ideas about overpopulation are often rooted in racism, classism, ableism, and of course the cisheteronormative, white patriarchy. Um, often people who are harmed by these policies are not white. They are not middle to upper class, they are not abled. And often they're also not cisgender or heterosexual or men. And I think we have to sit with that thought, right? Sure. More people might live in different parts of the state and the different parts of the country, more people tend to move to cities because those are where the jobs are. That doesn't mean that we set - whether at the city, state, or national level - limits on how many people can live here. If we go back to the idea of America being like every person for themselves and the American dream and pursuit of happiness bullshit, which was never actually accurate, um, any of those limits would put a huge damper on all of that. And those, those ideas don't Mesh. Um, in a 2017 article for Vox, David Roberts dives deeper: 'In practice, where you find concern over “population,” you very often find racism, xenophobia, or eugenics lurking in the wings. It’s almost always, ahem, particular populations that need reducing. History is replete with examples, but perhaps the most germane recent episode was less than 20 years ago, at the Sierra Club, which was riven by divisions over immigration. A group of grassroots members, with some help from powerful funders, attempted to take over the national organization. These members advocated sharply restricting immigration, saying the US should be reducing rather than increasing its population. Their contention is that the country’s open immigration policies are hurting the environment by bringing in poor immigrants and making them richer, thus increasing their environmental impact. Of course, they swore up and down that xenophobia had nothing to do with it... I don’t doubt that it’s possible to be concerned about the environmental stresses population brings without any racism or xenophobia — I’ve met many people who fit that description, and there were well-meaning (if quite mistaken) population-focused groups in the ’70s and ’80s — but in terms of public discussion and advocacy, anyone explicitly expressing that concern starts out behind the eight ball. The mere mention of “population” raises all sorts of ugly historical associations.' Roberts is not wrong here at all. I think he's just leaving out pieces that maybe two years later we understand better or maybe it's because I'm disabled, Queer and Trans, I don't know, but we're not talking about the ableism. We're not talking about that. The US already places heavy restrictions on the number of disabled people that come come over because of what a 'strain' on our resources they would be - and let's not pretend the countries like Canada are any better. All the people after the 2016 presidential election telling me I should move to Canada - guess what? Canada won't have me because I will place too much of a burden on their healthcare system. First world countries already put these kinds of restrictions in place and we're supposed to think that making those restrictions broader and even more awful is going to help? All it's going to do is lead to population decrease because people are dying. And I don't know about y'all. I don't want that fucking shit on my conscience. (I almost said conference again, brain fog.) Um, and the way Roberts talks about this in the article, it's not about article. I definitely suggeste just reading it but do keep in mind it's from a very cis, Hetero Normative Lens, Aka there's binary gendered language and um, it's under the assumption that like parents who do the sex are going to have the kids because one does the eggs and one does the sperm and that's not reality. Um, yeah, so I've put a link to it in the show notes. I've put a link to a couple of other, um, pieces that are along a similar nature. There's a piece from the Guardian that discusses two sides of the issue, um, including like how beneficial large cities are, how they can be like technological-idea-producing cities out like, like San Francisco. That was phrased terribly - I am sorry. But like, cities tend to push technology further and it's like not only because of necessity but also like it just serves as an incubator. Green living tends to excel in cities too because you've got people like in San Francisco that are doing composting. They have city-wide composting. Madison just did composting for a while. It wasn't well like put out there. I had no idea until they stopped the program. Uh, now you got a bunch of people living in apartments and they have nowhere to do their compost. Like I know for a city, so rooted in environmental action, not great anyway. You know, it seems, it seems to me that the people who are against overpopulation are also against ways we might fight against that. (You know, like not ones rooted in white supremacist Bullshit.) If the concern was about actual quality of life or the environment, right, we would focus not on population density or overpopulation. Instead we'd put our energy into lifting up the quality of life of everyone, especially those living in large cities. We would focus on improving access to things like family planning, comprehensive sex ED, contraception. We would improve equality between the many genders, including pay, and destroy legislation that allows not only different genders, but disabled folks to be paid cents on the dollar. We'd improve adoption rates. We'd work better to like provide foster families with the resources and tools they need. We'd promote and accept families created in any form instead of telling Queer families they can't adopt more kids. We'd also stop approving and putting out articles, tearing down millennials like me who aren't going to have kids. But then again, I'm American and white, so my kids are the ones that they'd probably want to have around until they learned that I'm disabled. And that's what I got to say about that. Yeah, it's always good to end the episode on a great diatribe. Ah, yeah. Um, cool. Please, please, please, please, please, if you are listening on stitcher or apple podcasts or another program that allows you to rate, please do it. It helps people find the podcast. It makes me feel good and lets me put up cool things at work that say, 'hey, people should listen to my podcast cause other people like it.' Yes, I'm a nerd. I just started a fulltime job and um, and told people about the podcast. People are already excited about the prospect of listening to it. They probably will have forgotten the name of it, which I'm okay with. But um, it's exciting to be able to talk more about it as like something cool instead of like, oh yeah, I got this thing mumble, mumble, mumble. Anyway, please. Again, if you have the ability to subscribe, stitcher lets you do that. Well like every podcast app lets you subscribe I guess. But subscribe rate. Tell me what you think is going on that's good, or bad. Tell me if you think I should edit more then I do, which is not very much. Um, yeah, give me your thoughts. Send me emails to me. Facebook messages. Let's tweet at each other. Let's be friends. Um, I'd love to hear from people. I'd love to hear what people think is working, not working, what they'd like to see, all that stuff. Um, but for now, I have a date with some tacos and I hope soon who you also have tacos. You just listened to the Spooky Sconnie podcast. It is produced every two weeks by me, Kirsten Schultz. The intro, outro music is from Purple Plant. You can find show notes and more over at spookysconnie.podbean.com, including a transcript in case you missed anything. Take a minute and rate and subscribe if you can. You'll help more people see the show by rating and you won't miss a single episode if you subscribe, and that's pretty dope. You can support the show over at patreon.com/spookysconniepodcast and you can email me anything you'd like me to know at spookysconniepodcast@gmail.com. Meantime, sleep tight. Don't let the badgers bite. Bye.

In this episode, I give an update in the Jayme Closs case before going on to cover the history of one of the coooooolest cemeteries in Wisconsin - Forest Hill in Madison. Come learn about the northernmost Confederate cemetery, effigy mounds, and some willllddd history - oh, and make sure to visit the FB page for pics! Resources Jayme Closs Today show snippet Patterson guilty plea Forest Hill wiki Parks page Haunted Madison Forest Hill Cemetery guide Confederate Rest removed A Biographical Guide to Forest Hill Cemetery: The Ordinary and Famous Women and Men Who Shaped Madison and the World (Amazon) This Podcast Will Kill You Transcript Welcome back to the Spooky Sconnie Podcast - the podcast that talks about everything, spooky, funky, criminal and weird in the state of Wisconsin. Before I dive into this week's topic, I wanted to give an update because I'm recording this right now on Wednesday the 27th and that means Jake Patterson who abducted Jayme Closs and killed her parents in October of 2018 was just arraigned and pled guilty to charges. So I wanted to talk a little bit about that before I dive into today's topic. Upon entering the court, he was crying and sniffling as he answered the judge's questions. He pled guilty to the three charges against him, which was killing Jayme's father, killing Jayme's mother, and then kidnapping Jayme. Um, the murders bring with them a life sentence while the kidnapping charge could be up to 40 years. So he's basically facing, um, two life sentences and an extra 40 years. ----more---- It seems as though from what I've read, that he struck a plea deal in this case, which means that, um, no other charges during the time that he had Jayme in his possession will be brought up as well as he won't be charged with armed burglary, which was part of this as well. So, um, for people wondering if Jayme had undergone any sexual violence with him, we still don't know. My guess is, again probably, but at this point they don't want to put her through talking about that. And I would say rightly so. Um, he, as I said, pled guilty to all those three counts and will be sentenced on May 24th. As he was being led out of the court, he said "bye, Jayme." She was not in the courtroom. I, I'm sure that he wants to think that she's watching, but her family has been shielding her from basically all of the coverage around this case. Over the weekend of the 16th here, um, he had a call with WCCO, which is, um, uh, a local news station, I believe out of Minneapolis with one of their reporters that also made the Today Show. And I wanted to give a little bit of an update about that. Um, he said that he knew he wasn't supposed to talk to the reporters but he didn't care. Um, and that he doesn't want to cause any more harm, which to be frank, I think talking to the reporters and basically coming into people's living rooms is causing more harm. But that's just me. He talked about that he wants to talk to her [Jayme] but knows he can't. He loves her. Um, which, uh, Gail on the today show mentioned after the, um, snippet about this aired that she hoped that Jayme's family and people that she was close with were still shielding her from, um, the news and, and making it so she wasn't watching things like the Today Show when the stuff will randomly pop up because of how jarring that could be. And, um, I think that was rightly so. And, and just as an Fyi, I have linked to the youtube video of this news snippet. Um, Gail is laughing at the beginning of it because they were talking about something funny in the previous segment. She's not laughing about this. There were a lot of youtube comments - context, people. He - Patterson - said that while he had Jayme in his custody, they spent time talking about stuff, playing games, watching TV and cooking and that just about everything that they ate was home, home cooked. Um, obviously as you can guess with wanting to not, you know, tell everybody that he has a kidnapped girl in his possession. About that same day on the 16th, Elizabeth Smart - famous kidnapping survivor - talked here in Wisconsin in Barron where Jayme grew up and in her hometown. She talked a lot about how to help Jayme heal but also how to heal as a community. Um, and I think I've talked about this before in the, in the minisodes about this case, but Elizabeth Smart got abducted when I was young and, um, her constant work around not only kidnapping, not only healing from trauma, but also around how the sex negative culture that we have makes it even tougher on victims and survivors is just fascinating. And I have goosebumps right now because, um, it matches up so well with the work I do, um, in the, in the sex ed world. So it just makes me happy. Elizabeth Smart also talked about respecting Jayme's privacy and avoiding really tough questions. So again, I really feel like this comes back to don't ask her if she was on the receiving end of any sexual violence during this, uh, 88 day kidnapping and being held against her will. So that's the update for Jayme's case. And, um, hopefully here we will have a very quick sentencing and there won't be any issues to let Jake off because motherfucker does not need to be anywhere outside of the jail right now. I generally want to like move towards restorative justice and things like that, but when people can't even tell you why they abducted someone, there's still a part of me that says, "Nope, that's too scary." Um, that's obviously something I'm working on and I think something we all need to work on. But, um, when it's a a white boy, I also don't feel that sad about it to be frank. Um, but that's a topic for another day. So for today's episode we're actually talking about a cemetery here in Madison. It is Forest Hill Cemetery and it's actually one of the first US national cemeteries established here in Wisconsin. It's located at one Speedway Road, which basically serves as a junction between Mineral Point Road - which is on the west side for the most part - and campus. So like the Regent Street area that goes, you know, right down by LaBahn arena where the badgers just brought home the national championship in women's Ice Hockey and I'm fawning all over. Um, and um, yeah, the Kohl Center where the Badgers men's hockey team plays. Um, but also like Camp Randall and some other spaces. So this is a pretty well traveled area. Um, it's right by one of the high schools. It's, it's fairly well known. So if you've been to Wisconsin and you're remembering a very, very large cemetery that covers both sides of a road, it's probably Forest Hill. It's often described as a romantic or rural cemetery. Um, the rural cemetery movement really drew upon like English garden landscape styles that were really, really popular. Um, especially the late 18 hundreds, like middle to late 18 hundreds here in the states. About the same time that, um, you know, we were turning the corner into the 19 hundreds. There were concerns about the aesthetic around like this rural cemetery thing. Um, and there wasn't any uniformity around gravestone markings and headstones. So people would make these grand elaborate things on top of their graves and in their families' plot area. And, um, of course, you know, at that point the people that ran Forest Hill couldn't turn around and say, okay, we need to get rid of those. Um, but they do have some areas now where it's just flat markers and it just makes maintenance easier. There's not this constant like one upmanship and, um, just tends to be a newer area for, for people who've been buried far more recently. Um, they also really wanted to use like soft lines. And so when you go and you see the landscaping around the cemetery, it's really beautiful and, um, it feels rural while at the same time, you know, you can hear cars and the distance, you don't feel like scared rural. That makes sense. Um, but instead you're just kind of in this very nice space that turns almost into its own world, which I think is powerful. Um, and also beautiful. The graveyard contains just about everybody from Catholics to Lutherans to Jews, um, and more, but we especially have a very large Hmong population. So the Mung are an ethnic group originally from, um, this kind of region between China and Southeast Asia. And there were a lot of Hmong people who came over to Wisconsin in general as refugees during the Vietnam War. Um, and, uh, you know, were coming from Vietnam and China to come seek space here to be safe. So there's a very large Hmong population throughout the state, but especially, um, as we start looking at graveyards and things, there's a lot more diversity than I think people think Wisconsin would have, especially here in Madison, right, with the university and people really making homes here after that. The first burials of settlers slash colonizers here in Madison happened on Bascom Hill. And like, if you watch, um, you know, college football games, you'll usually see Bascom hill, um, when it's featured on like national TV. So it's this big hill with like the snazzy White House look in building at the top of it. And sometimes it's decorated with flamingos. There's a history about that. We'll get into it in a later date. But, um, so, so it's really like a very main point of campus. State Street is a street that you, um, you can't drive down. It's just like a pedestrian street with a lot of shops and restaurants and that kind of runs straight into the hill, um, which then goes up into a different part of campus. And um, further on the other side of that hill is really more of like ag buildings and um, vet buildings and even the medical building cause the hospital's much further down from the hill. But let's get back to this right now that I've given you a mental layout. So basically this hill's right in the middle of campus and I'll talk more about it on its own because the UW is definitely going to get its own very long episode. There were a few other cemeteries around the city located around, um, spaces we know now as like North Carroll Street or even where the Saint Mary's hospital currently is, which is further down on Park Street. But uh, that, that also just reminds me never to go there. Um, it's a Catholic hospital and there's a lot of problems with it anyway. But, um, I think it's kind of a, an interesting thing to have a hospital basically built on where a graveyard used to be but of course there are houses and stuff built there too. Um, anyway, downtown Madison and much of campus itself lies on an isthmus and I hate saying this word cause I feel like I have like a slight lisp and so it makes it hard to say isthmus - whatever. It's i s t h m u s. As defined by Wikipedia, an isthmus is "a narrow piece of land connecting two larger areas across an expanse of water by which they are otherwise separated." So it's like a land bridge and, here in Madison, the isthmus is between Lake Mendota and Lake Monona. There's only one other city built on an isthmus and that's Seattle. So fun fact there - between being on the isthmus and having a very rapidly growing population, they were looking locally to establish a more formal cemetery and to push it more towards the outskirts of town. Not only was that a pretty common thing at the time, it also pushed the cemetery to further away from the lakes and the isthmus itself. So you wouldn't run into things like major flooding that might bring up bodies and stuff like that. Um, this last summer we had terrible flooding and now that all of the snow is melting, um, it's, it's definitely not as bad as it was over the summer. Um, cause we had a couple of days of torrential downpour, but a lot of the water spaces are very, very, very, very high almost to the road. Again, the first official village cemetery was established in 1847 near what is now Orin Park, which is really close to, um, this area that we're talking about. In the mid 1850s, a committee was formed to search for a more appropriate site to really create, as I said, like an official, um, cemetery for the city and, and some surrounding areas as well. So they chose the current site, which was at that point on the very far west side. Um, and they bought in original 80 acres of land for about $10,000 from John and Mary, right in 1857 and they had actually obtained the land from James Duane Doty who had gotten it from Alanson Sweet who was a territorial council member from Milwaukee that really led the fight to make Madison, um, the Capitol of the state, which is kind of cool. We'll get into that at some point too. Um, this is definitely like the nerdiest stuff and I get way too excited about it. Um, so this area is about two and a half miles away from the state Capitol building, which, um, to go back to Bascom hill and that layout Bascom hill flows into state street and state street goes right up to the Capitol building. So it all flows really cool. Um, but is very far to walk. Um, many of Forest Hill's earliest like graves were re burials from other graveyards around the city, including spaces like Orton Park. And they're actually at the time that they bought this, this large plot of land, there were still people using it for agricultural purposes. And so the transition to really fully using it as a cemetery was gradual. Um, and it wasn't until 1861 that the common council and asked the cemetery committee to, um, you know, not allow people to keep farm animals in the cemetery, which is wild to me to think of like, you're just going to like have a picnic by your dead relative and there's a cow. It just feels like the most Wisconsin thing. By five years later, um, the Wisconin State Journal had written about a group of men who were just covered with, um, like horses and plows and other farming material, planting potatoes in unoccupied parts of the cemetery. Um, you know, people that live nearby still continued to use the land for their own purposes, for planting crops, for planting a garden, um, up until basically they were phased out by like the cemetery growing or people catching on, which I think is hilarious. During the 1860s, the city made a lot of improvements because they had sold a lot of plots. And so they added things like fences and a gate, um, a receiving vault, which allows people to, um, be held in a space where they're not going to stink everything up while it's winter and there's too much snow or the ground is too frozen to actually bury them. So something that actually happens a lot here in Wisconsin is you'll see somebody dies in say November and then they're not buried till April because everything's frozen. And even then, sometimes April's a stretch. So, uh, that's something that was really important at this point in time for them to install and, um, get a lot of use out of. They also planted some new trees and some nice shrubbery and, and other miscellaneous, um, gardening goodies throughout the space of the cemetery to really make it feel, um, you know, going back to the beginning, like this romantic, earthy, beautiful space. Um, at that point, they also decided that they, you know, they recognized that people with different faiths might want to be buried in their own sections. And so they offered sections to some of the Jewish congregations locally, which they accepted and purchased a section on the southwest side of the cemetery and, um, to Catholics and the Catholics and the Roman Catholic society had declined. And then turned around a couple of years later and purchased, um, 25 acres from the city, which is now the Resurrection Cemetery, which is basically the other side of the road, um, from Forest Hill, which is fun. It's still basically there. So again, like mid 18 hundreds, people would get in their carriages on Sunday afternoons and go out to the cemeteries for picnics. And this may sound really weird, but that was actually part of what they wanted picnics to be at that point in time, was to be this space where you could go and have this nice park atmosphere, but also be able to go be with and remember and honor your loved ones. So, you know, um, uh, kind of anecdotal example could be, um, when I was little I would go visit my great grandmother's grave, um, back in the Pacific northwest and we would get ice cream cones, which were some of her favorite things. We would like go out on day trips and drive around and get ice cream Collins and look at the pretty nature around us. Um, so you know, I'd like go sit there and eat ice cream cone and like talk to her. Right. And it's just like an anecdotal example, but there are many other people who might bring their whole families to visit, you know, their late mother or late father and really kind of spend time there in that space with them, which I think is really cool. And I kind of hope we get back to not just cause I want to eat ice cream in a cemetery. I just like, I think it's really cool. I mean, I don't mind eating ice cream in a cemetery. I could eat ice cream anywhere. Well, almost anywhere a morgue would be terrifyin. So the people who had access to carriages were really the well to do and this became a pretty good sign of wealth and of social status if you could like be seen at the cemetery eating sandwiches. Um, and it wasn't until about the late 18 hundreds, so 1897 when they actually extended the street car tracks from downtown to the entrance of Forest Hill. And um, it allowed a lot more people to be able to go and visit their loved ones and you know, do picnics if they wanted or, or just sit and visit and honor them, which I think is really cool. Um, the, let's get back to the civil war because that's about to happen. It really became a turning point for how we used cemeteries here in the states. And you know, looking at the demographics of who died. I think that's a pretty important thing we look at here in Madison. Um, as a city we sent two thirds of men age 20 to 45 off to war. And that was a larger population than any other city in Wisconsin, probably because we had a lot of younger people and about 24% of those men died in service, which means just about everyone here in Madison would have lost a loved one, whether it was a family member or a friend. And honoring those people became something really important, um, not only locally but nationally. Um, it became far less of "let's go to the cemetery on a picnic to honor Papa" and more "Let's go visit our brother John who died and mourn and bring all of those feelings with us." It wasn't so much about spending time and honoring in a maybe jovial way or a comforting way as it was looking back on the loss of the sorrow of that time period. And that's where, where everything really started to shift with cemetery use. Within, um, Forest Hill itself, there's the Soldier's Lot where about 240 union soldiers are buried as well as the Confederate Rest plot, which holds 140 prisoners of war. And we will get to that shortly. Well, kind of shortly. Um, Memorial Day, um, or as it was called way early on, 'decoration day' was first observed here in Madison in 1868 and they had a parade from the center of the town to the cemetery to adorn the graves and talk and honor people who had fallen. In 1878, they constructed a chapel, Caitlin Chapel, Catlin Chapel. Sometimes I can't read what I wrote. I think it's Catlin, c, a, t, l, i, n. And they built it new their cemetery entrance and it became a space for people to come and worship. Um, and it really kind of signaled along with the street car being built within the next couple of decades. It really signaled even more change from um, what the cemetery had been one at first started to really becoming something that was public and not exclusive. Going back to the streetcar thing, since we're there about timeline wise, the current cemetery office was actually built as a street car station, um, which I think is absolutely fantastic. And it was built in 1908, so about a decade after the street cars started to really, you know, help hold crowds and help provide shelter for people waiting for the street car back and all of that stuff. In the 1920s, the city purchased an additional two tracts of land bordering Forest Hill. There's 20 acres from the Zwerg farm and 60 acres from the Wingra Land Company. Now the, um, land from the farm has been incorporated into the cemetery. There's dead people in it. Um, and then the land from Wingra has actually been leased to a golf course since 1927 - the Glen Way Golf course, which is nine holes. Um, and a lot of people who have enjoyed golfing in general like to find plots in a duration sections like very close to the green so that they could conceivably like watch golf. It's just fantastic. The land itself hasn't really changed since this time. So, um, Forest Hill cemetery itself is about 75 acres right now. Madison was also figuring out, um, how to handle people who are using the cemetery for a sexy purposes, um, at probably because of the fact that it was so much more accessible at this point. A lot of young couples, and this was not a Madison specific thing. This is something that also happened nationwide, but a lot of young couples would sneak off to the cemetery after dark because no one would be there to go neck and snug and whatnot. And I mean, you think about it, it's a gorgeous space. Yes, there's headstones and dead people, but like there's pretty, there's trees. It's very naturey. Um, it's all kind of makes sense honestly. And this just represented, you know, one more new thing that was happening. Um, and, and having people who had enough extra time to be all like, sneak off and make out, especially teenagers, um, having teenagers who weren't at, at, um, like working out in the fields all day and were instead like in school and then maybe at jobs, um, give them a lot more time to go do the dippidy in the cemetery. Many local commissions really tried to regulate this new, uh, recreational purpose. And they would do things like charge admission fees or um, if they hadn't had gates install gates or have people who kind of kept the grounds in the evenings to like chase kids off, which I think is kind of fascinating. Um, in 1910 to back up a smudge, there was a booklet released called "Rules and Regulations of Forest Hill Cemetery." And some of the stuff I read really tied that into this notion of having to like push back against kids doing it. Um, but part of this booklet talks about hours at admission and you know, tells you you can't pick any of the shrubbery or flowers and you can't ride or drive faster than you walk. You can't be drunk or drinking. You shouldn't be resting in spaces that don't belong to you. And, um, you shouldn't be like walking over dead people, which might be my favorite one. Um, I really try hard to like not walk over dead people's spots anyway. So when I read that, I was like, Ooh, it's me. I'm a big nerd. Um, unfortunately a lot of the pushback against, you know, kids and, and people coming to use the graveyard area for different purposes, um, I think helped contribute to the fact that now cemeteries are lonely and sad and sure, you know, bringing in the civil war and bringing in the sorrow from that time period forward and all the wars we had sense definitely plays a part. And, um, one of the things I was reading also talked about cars playing apart. You know, a lot of people when they go visit graveyards, they might just stop in their car and not get out, especially if it's like a shit day weather wise. But I really think a lot of it was this pushback and I don't know if there's any way that they could have done it differently, but it's just something to think about I guess. Hmm. Forest Hill's landscape, architecture, and building program shifted to really incorporate new design ideas. Um, the mausoleum was built in 1916 which offered, you know, above ground burials. And it's a really nice space. It's like right across from the chapel. It's, it's really pretty. Um, and then they eventually, um, as I said had adopted the notion of having flat grave markers in a, at least one part of the cemetery. One of the cool things is that there're a lot of effigy mounds within the cemetery. So let's talk about effigy mounds for a minute. Long before Forrest Hill became like this premiere big cemetery, it was a cemetery already. Um, Native American and Indigenous people had been using the space for effigy mounds for a really long time. And these mounds remind all of us, right, that this land was a sacred spot already and it wasn't white people coming in that made it sacred. You can explore effigy mounds in this area and, and honestly, all throughout the state. Um, and there's different sections, which is, is cool. Um, most of the effigy mounds are within section 35, but, but you can get hints and um, you might be able to see where there may have been one in the past. It's really unfortunate - for really long time, people didn't think of effigy mounds is the thing or just thought it was a hill or give a shit cause it was Native Americans and indigenous people. Um, so unfortunately there is a lot of effigy mounds that have been destroyed, um, even if just partially so, which is so sad, but a lot of them have been preserved. Um, and we'll talk a little bit more about that. Join me on our effigy mound journey. So effigy mounds were built between the years 700 and 1200 CE by Native Americans and indigenous people. And they were built, you know, on the land that is now part of Wisconsin. Earlier mounds tended to be, um, connical or geometric. So they were shapes but not necessarily the same way as, um, you know, the effigy mounds as they are now. I feel like that didn't make any sense. It's like if you look up here, I meds, right? Some of them are step pyramids and some of them are triangular pyramids and step ones usually came earlier. And it seems to be that like once people figured out how to make the triangular ones, they shifted to that. Um, or if they had the resources to do that, they shifted to that. It's kind of the same idea with the effigy mounds. So at first they might've just been a little mound and then they grew into, now if you look at it from far away, it looks like a Jaguar, which is pretty cool. The term effigy really refers to the fact that they were built in shapes of animals. Um, and they were usually constructed around sites that already had earlier mounds, which is really neat. Kind of keeping those spaces together, recognizing that you'd already created a sacred area and really kind of filling it out and telling a story with the shapes you were making. People who built the effigy mounds during the late woodland period, which is where we were at in Wisconsin, and that was happening, excuse me. Um, really obtained a lot of resources by hunting and gathering. Um, so you may find things like corn near an effigy mound. You may find things like clay pots near an effigy mound or in an effigy mound. Um, and the effigy mounds themselves were burial spaces. Um, they were really meant to serve as this really cool decorative way to bury your dead. And archeologists have found no other significant burial grounds by the late woodland people who lived where we now know as Wisconsin. So really these effigy mounds were the primary way they buried and honored their dead. Effigy mounds typically contain one body or might have several. Um, it all depends on how large the mound is and shape and stuff. Some mounds had no bodies at all and that winds up bringing up concerns about, well, was this already disturbed at some point? Did they forget to put a body in there or what was the other purpose of this mound? I will do a whole episode about effigy mounds at some point, but um, the basic way they usually created them was they would dig the shape they wanted and then place the dead and whatever objects they wanted that person to have with them and then create the rest of the shape on top. So it's really like building a hill, um, which is really cool. I think, I don't know. I'm a nerd. Mounds began to be excavated and preserved, um, probably around the mid 19 hundreds. Um, and now let's become a really big part of Wisconsin. And a part of our tradition has been preserving Native American and indigenous spaces as much as we can and talking about them and learning about them and sharing that knowledge with others, which I think is cool. So let's talk about the confederates. Hooray. Not really. Um, so as I said earlier, there's a section of the cemetery that's known as Confederate Rest and there's about 140 confederate prisoners of war who died while in confinement and a union camp here in Madison in 1862. The bulk of the soldiers were a part of the first Alabama and from tree regimen or supporting that regiment during fights. And they had just moved from, I think it was Ohio, back into Illinois when they got caught up in a 23 day fight and then were captured by General John Pope and Commodore Andrew Foote. 5,000 of the prisoners of war were sent to different areas. So some were sent to like a Saint Louis for example. And then about a thousand of them came up to camp Randall. You might be saying right now like "wait, Camp Randall is where the Badgers play football!" Yeah. So it used to be a training camp for soldiers mostly during the civil war and it wasn't well equipped at all in general, but it was especially shit - shittily equipped to be a holding facility prison. On April 19th, 881 confederates arrived and on the 25th, another 275 came, the leader group actually came by boat, um, because they were incredibly sick and would not have been able to do the journey by rail that the earlier group had done. Within two days of the second group coming, 10 of the confederates had died. Most of the soldiers who would die did so due to wounds they had sustained during the fights, um, due to infections due to malarial fever. Um, who knows whether it was like it actually anything related to that, like malaria or anything like that at all? I think it was just fever. Um, so again, infection and then some sort of condition that caused diarrhea. There wasn't great, um, maintenance within camp Randall. So one of the things that they're worried about like cholera or something like that that was passed through stools and then, you know, hung out in spaces where you're drinking water. Yeah, it's great - shit water. After 140 soldiers had died, those who were left were transferred to Camp Douglas in Chicago. The state journal kept a record of deaths that happen day to day, which is Kinda cool. Um, on May 3rd, they posted the following under the headline of Death of Prisoners at Camp Randall: "There is a great mortality in the Prisoners Hospital at Camp Randall. Rumors are prevalent of gross neglect in respect to medical and other attendance, and of inattention to the ordinary hospital alleviations and to sanitary rules. We have not visited the hospital, and cannot vouch for these current reports. It is to be hoped that means will be adopted to spare needless suffering, and to provide, as far as possible, for the comfort and restoration of the sick." (book, part 2, 393) So clearly it wasn't on in great shape. Um, and we'll never know for sure. I think what a lot of these folks actually died of. Germ theory was not prevalent at the point, uh, that the civil war happened. And so there just wasn't knowledge about how we spread germs and all of that. Um, and there's some really great podcast episodes around that topic from the podcast called This Podcast Will Kill You. It's fantastic. It's nerdy. It's about epidemiology and diseases and pandemics and it's fantastic - and it's led by two chicks. So please go listen to it cause it's a great podcast. In the confederate section, there is a grave just in front of it and it belongs to a woman named Alice Whiting Waterman. She was born in the south and moved to Madison in 1868. She was widowed and didn't have any relatives, so she really didn't know what to do with her time to be quite frank and she became really interested in the neglected graves because they weren't well kept as you can imagine, because they're prisoners of war, so she spent the next 25 years of her life, the the year she had left taking care of that space and beautifying it and making it look better, cleaning it up so you could see the tombstones getting tombstones for those who didn't have them. Governor Lucius Fairchild also assisted in the effort, likely due to having fought in the war himself, but he's also often left out of the narrative and all of the blame is placed on Waterman. I don't know who knows what the full story is, but seems like uh, a lot of it gets placed on her because they don't want to associate Fairchild with it. I don't know. Anyway, the movement really was Waterman's baby. She referred to them as her 'boys' and really took ownership of essentially her kinfolk having grown up in the south. And when she died, she asked it to be buried with them. So they did what they could and buried her in front of them. We're going to get into some interesting things with this. Uh, but first let's boop ahead to 1872 and For memorial day that year, this space really served as a space of reconciliation. Um, that year, Governor Cadwallader C Washburn - who had been a union general at Vicksburg and elsewhere, but that was his big battle - spoke, and this goes on for a minute, so I'm sorry, but it's pretty great: "I would not have these ceremonies perpetuated for the purpose of keeping alive resentments of dividing a people that ought to be united, but only to remind us of the priceless value of our glorious union, and our obligations to those who sacrificed their lives to uphold and maintain it and to the near and dear ones they have left behind. Here, almost side by side, and in one silent bed, are laid not only those who sacrificed their lives to preserve - but also those to destroy our fair fabric of governance. Misguided as the last were, you wage no war with lifeless clay and your resentments stop with the grave. Let us then after we shall have decked the graves of our brave defenders, scattering pansies, forget-me-nots and the 'rosemary of rememberance,' nowt forget the lowly bed of those who sleep so far away from their once happy and sunny homes." (book, part 2, 398) I'm about to get into why this is bullshit, but first, let's hear what the newspaper has to say about this whole shenanigans: "After the graves of the Union soldiers had been handsomely and befittingly decorated, Governor Washburn stepped to the front, with more courage than has ever been shown on these occasions, asking volunteers to go with him to scatter flowers over the graves of the rebel dead who reposed nearby. No one can go beyond us in renouncing the cause of secession in all its forms, but we say Governor Washburn's conduct yesterday was that of a high-minded, magnanimous solider - of one who dared to sustain his professions by his public acts - and show charity for the erring and misguided 'boys in gray,' who like our own soldiers were brave beyond parallel, though sadly in the wrong. So little an act as this will do more to wipe out the asperities of the war than we can estimate. We can say it with credit to the old soldiers present that the Governor was not without a following in his work of merciful charity. All the officers of the day, chaplains, and veterans of a hundred battlefields joining in strewing the graves of the rebel dead." (book, part 2, 398) So it was either really easy to forgive and forget during this time period or this is the whitest thing I've ever heard. I can see in that time period right, going, okay, we're done. Things are getting better. But the fact that people thought it was actually getting better at that time period without recognizing that, slavery just shifted. And that black people still didn't have the right to vote from in most places. And in the small places they did have the right to vote, they were often bullied and threatened and harmed if they did. So like from a white person's perspective - Sure. Let's forgive and forget. And these little boys were wrong. They just made an Oopsie. I'm sorry. Fuck all y'all. No And it just gets better. Are you ready for this? So you know, from the 1872 up to 2000, people would still come and decorate that area with confederate flags. And it was only when a couple of people complained that they went, 'oh, I guess we should stop that.' Now let's fast forward to last October because of all of the stuff that has happened in fairly recent history with white supremacists and racists bigots re using the confederate flag and reasserting their, um, loyalty to those who led the confederate army and everything they stood for. Um, you know, there was a question about what the fuck do we do with the spot. And in October, 2018 the Madison City Council had convos about this. They were like, what the fuck do we do? They voted 16 to two to destroy the marker with the list of buried prisoners, which overturned the landmarks commission, um, who had denied a permit to remove the marker. The marker was built in 1906. Like, okay, it is historical, but do we need it and do we need everything that says, oh, proud boys, these are great? Um, no, we don't. The eradication of that plaque was seen as some people within the city government as some sort of reparation. Um, I don't think it's that, but it was supported by a number of people and a number of organizations throughout the city, state and even nationally, um, including like the Equal Opportunities Commission here in Madison. The Dane County Historical Society was pissed. Um, the editorial board of the Wisconsin State Journal was pissed because this is the northern most confederate graveyard. And I get that. I get that there's history, but we don't need to celebrate people who did terrible things. Um, then I think that if you're going to war for the confederacy, we can't excuse that. When I was in eighth grade, we had conversations about, 'oh well Robert E. Lee didn't really like slavery. He just didn't think black people were people, so that's why he fought on that side' as if that's somehow excused it and I'm sorry. No, it doesn't. As of January, the monument was removed and it was given to the local veterans museum. They didn't do damage to the monument, the cemetery grounds. Um, and uh, I'm going to talk about this interview and I'll put the link in the resources notes. I always do that. Um, but I, I think it paints a good picture of this. Michael Telzrow, the director of the Wisconsin Veterans Museum, said the marker is in crates at the state archive preservation facility on Madison's Near East side. He said there are no current plans for its exhibition either now or in the near future. It's highly unlikely that it would ever be permanently displayed. The museum, which is that 30 West Mifflin Street on the Capitol Square, accepted it because of the connections between that memorial and the union veterans from Wisconsin because there were a lot of veterans here that helped raise money for that marker, um, and things like that. So that's part of why they decided to take it and I think they also just wanted to get the shit done with, to be honest. Um, not all of the monument's gone. So there's a base of the structure that kind of acts as a fence around the plots themselves and it was going to be way too costly to get a permit to take that out. Um, it's made from granite, it weighs like over 4,000 pounds, so it's just not, um, something that's worth it at this point. Instead, they took like the two top portions off and brought that to the state archives preservation facility on Thornton Avenue. The top most portion listed 132 of the names of the soldiers who died at the camp when it was used as the military base. The middle section stated erected in loving memory by the United daughters of confederacy to Mrs Alice Whiting Waterman and her boys - a reference to again Waterman - and nothing's inscribed in the base. So in August, 2017, mayor Paul saw Glen, (who's running again, dear God. Why?) ordered that a smaller stone marker and plaque be removed. And that monument that was placed in 1982 described the dead as "Valliant confederate soldiers" and "unsung heroes." And that came right after, um, the protest around the statue in Virginia and um, the death of Heather Heyer. Is that her last name? Oh, Shit. I think it is. Y'All know what I'm talking about. It's okay. Um, yeah, so that's the big stuff with this area. Um, some notable residents include Steve and Babcock who, um, helped revolutionize dairy production. I mean, this is Wisconsin. Kathryn Clarenbach, who was one of the founders of the National Organization for Women (NOW) who I unfortunately need to point out are TERF. Um, if you've not encountered the term TERF, it stands for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist. Um, I've also seen people write it as fart and I can't remember everything it stands for it cause I laughed too much. Um, I can't remember. But the point is that, um, as we're doing feminist stuff, there's a lot of people who want to exclude people who are trans in some way. And um, let me put my sex educator hat on. Being cisgender just means you assigned or you, you're identity aligns with your assigned sex slash gender at birth. So you're born, you have a penis, they call you a boy. Um, and you know, fast forward 30 years later, you're still cool with being a dude. Then you're cisgender. Transgender people don't identify that way. And actually there's a lot of science to back this up. I won't get into a lot of it because that's a whole different section of a podcast, right? But the fact of the matter is science shows that, excuse me, our brains align far more with our identities then, I dunno, our genitals do. And the reason I talk about this is I am trans. Trans is not just being one gender and wanting to go to a different gender. It's not just going through, um, hormone replacement therapy or, um, going through surgeries. Sometimes it's just, um, your state of being. So for me, I am what is known as gender fluid. And what that means is that some days I wake up and I want to be super femme and pretty and paint my nails and maybe be called a slut and have my hair pulled. And um, just enjoy that. Right. And there are some days where I wake up (usually after watching ghost adventures, not really), but I wake up and I'm like, yeah, dude, Bro. Ah, and I get like really aggro and I'm very masculine and other days I'm somewhere in between and aren't just me. And there's not a good way to put a finger on that, but organizations that are TERFy in nature don't want people like me involved. They don't want people who were assigned as boys at birth who are now women to be involved in their organization. And that's fucking bullshit. Um, also Matilda S Howell who started the first kindergarten and fighting Bob La Follette who we will talk about later. I promise - there's so much to talk about. Since the early two thousands, the Wisconsin Veterans Museum has sponsored an annual talking spirits, tore that runs for a week, each October. It's really cool. Um, groups walk throughout the cemetery with a guide and they stopped for the little vignettes that are performed by actors that you know, are all dressed up and I'm representing kind of civil war era people. So in 2013, um, for example, they had someone portray a woman whose two sons were a part of the iron brigade and had died and how she was handling things and all of this stuff is really heavily researched and they actually base it on like real life, which I love. It's brought like 1600 school kids and, um, several hundred people from the community and it's just really fun. Um, if you go at night, you have candles. It's just, it's nice. I like it. Um, so I couldn't find a ton about it being haunted, but there's just a couple of things. Um, you know, of course the people who were moved from other cemeteries to here, um, maybe their spirits are wandering and lost. Of course, there's also, you know, concerns about, people within the confederate plot and haunting and, and being upset that they're stuck up here in the north or that they lost. Um, and then there were other people who were buried in unmarked graves. There's actually a, a large section in one of the books that I read, um, where people are just kind of lost to time. Nobody knows who's there, just really sad. And I did find something about, um, they think there might be people hearing baby's crying, but I also saw that on a similar, um, similarly named cemetery in another part of the state. So I can't say for sure, but I love this graveyard. It's one of my favorite places to go. And I'm that bitch that grew up going to graveyards. Sorry. Sorry about it. Um, and I just love seeing the ornate, beautiful statues and remembrances of family members. Um, I love walking through and recognizing names that are now names of buildings on the UW campus. Um, and I love in the fall, the way the sunlight hits the trees just right and it creates this very etherial lighting. It's just beautiful. I've got a couple of really fun pictures I've taken, so I'll put some of those, um, in the show notes for y'all to take a look at. It's beautiful there. I love it. And if you ever have the chance to come to Madison, especially in the fall, um, stop at Forest Hill Cemetery. Explore and you'll never know who you'll run into. Maybe me. [goofy spooky laughter] That's it for this episode. Next episode we're going to be talking about Earth Day, so stay tuned to that because Earth Day was started by a Wisconsinite and it's amazing. Have a great and wonderful fortnight! You just listened to the Spooky Sconnie podcast. It is produced every two weeks by me, Kirsten Schultz. The intro, outro music is from Purple Plant. You can find show notes and more over at spookysconnie.podbean.com, including a transcript in case you missed anything. Take a minute and rate and subscribe if you can. You'll help more people see the show by rating and you won't miss a single episode if you subscribe, and that's pretty dope. You can support the show over at patreon.com/spookysconniepodcast and you can email me anything you'd like me to know at spookysconniepodcast@gmail.com. Meantime, sleep tight. Don't let the badgers bite. Bye.

Content note: animal abuse, murder, rape, sexual violence, torture, necrophilia, child molestation, drug use and misuse, cannibalism, gross details of so many things, sanism, and ableism. Photo: Dahmer's sketch of his body altar, courtesy of Oxygen. Even thought part one wasn't even an hour, I wanted to be rid of Dahmer as quickly as humanly fucking possible, y'all. So, part 2 is almost two hours long... but we don't have to talk about it anymore. This episode starts right as he moves into the notorious apartment on North 25th Street. For the early stuff, make sure to listen to the first episode. Resources Wiki Biography Crime Museum Inside the Mind of Jeffrey Dahmer: Serial Killer’s Chilling Jailhouse Interview 1991 Vanity Fair piece Jeffrey Dahmer Trial Victim Impact Statement Highlights (video) 5 Of The Most Shocking Moments From The Jeffrey Dahmer Trial 9 Mind-Blowing Quotes Made By Serial Killer Jeffrey Dahmer Dahmer on Dahmer Sneak Peek from Oxygen 2 Servicemen Reveal Their Stories Of Being Sexually Abused By Jeffrey Dahmer These Are The Chilling Crime Scene Photos From Jeffrey Dahmer's Apartment Stone Phillips interview Murderous Minds: Inside Serial Killers S1E7 on Amazon Prime All the other links I said I'd include Study Shows Mentally Ill More Likely to Be Victims, Not Perpetrators, of Violence True Crime Obsessed - Episode 40: Kidnapped For Christ Bruce McArthur (Toronto serial killer)How alleged Toronto serial killer Bruce McArthur went unnoticed Toronto serial killer destroyed gay safe space Grad student claims she tipped off police to serial killer a year ago The sad predictability of Toronto’s alleged serial killer Patreon poll Transcription Welcome back to the Spooky Sconine podcast. This is the podcast that covers everything that is paranormal, criminal, spooky and just plain weird from the state of Wisconsin. This is the second episode in the Jeffrey Dahmer Series. If you haven't listened to the first one, go back and catch that because there are going to be some things I talk about in here that I explained in the first episode. And also like you wouldn't watch the last half of the movie, right? Like, go listen to the first one. ----more---- When we last left Jeffrey Dahmer, he had just convinced a judge he was going to change his ways after molesting a child. Let's rejoin him a year later, shall we? On May 14th, 1990 Dahmer moves out of his grandmother's house where he had had to move back into it, because of the molestation charge and having just gotten out of jail and all that jazz. He moves into apartment 213 at 924 north 25th street and takes any momentos he'd kept from his previous victims, including the mummified head and genitals of Anthony Sears. Within one week of moving into his new apartment, he had already killed his sixth victim. Raymond Smith was a 32 year old sex worker who Dahmer lured to his apartment with the promise of $50 in exchange for sex at the apartment. He gave Smith a drink laced with seven sleeping pills and manually strangled him. The following day, Dahmer purchased a Polaroid camera with which he took several pictures of Smith's body in suggestive positions before dismembering him in the bathroom. This all becomes a very major part of his M.O. and, with very few exceptions, this is what he tends to do with the rest of his victims from here on out. He boils the legs and arms and also the pelvis in a steel kettle with Soilex, which allows him to then rinse the bones off in his sink. He dissolves the remainder of Smith's skeleton with the exception the skull in a container filled with acid. Dahmer later spray paints Smith's skull, and he places it alongside the skull of Anthony Sears upon a black towel inside a metal filing cabinet. About a week later - and it's on or about May 27th - Dahmer lures a young man to his apartment but he fucks up. Um, you know how he spikes the drink, right? He'll go and he'll be like, "oh, I'm going to make us a drink." And then he sneaks the sleeping pills into the one drink. Well, just this one time he forgets which drink is which and drinks the laced drink himself. He wakes up the next day and his intended victim stole a bunch of his close $300 and a watch. He doesn't report this to police, natch. You know, when you have like a severed head hadn't genitals, you don't report this. On May 29th, though, he does share that he'd been robbed with his probation officer because, remember, he's also still on probation, you know, for molesting a kid. In June of 1990 he brings a 27 year old acquaintance to the apartment named Edward Smith. He drugs and strangles Smith and instead of just immediately acidifying the skeleton or going through his normal process, he actually puts Smith's skeleton in his freezer for several months because he thought maybe it wouldn't retain as much moisture, which like from a scientific background, bruh, no, this is not going to work. Obviously it didn't work and then he acidified the body like later on. He'd destroyed the skull on accident because he placed it in the oven to dry and it exploded. It exploded! Later, he told police that he felt 'rotten' about Smith's murder since he didn't get to keep anything from the body. Less than three months later he meets a 22 year old Chicago native named Ernest Miller on the corner of north 27th street. Miller agrees to company Dahmer to his apartment for $50 and then is like, oh, you want to listen to my heart and stomach? Okay. Dahmer decides, 'mm, since I'm here I might as well try to suck your dick.' And Miller says, 'you know what, that's going to cost you extra.' So that's when Dahmer goes and grabs the drinks. He only had two sleeping pills to put in Miller's drink though. So he is out for a very short amount of time and when he wakes up suddenly in the middle of Dahmer doing stuff to him, Dahmer kills him by slashing his carotid artery and he does this with the same knife he uses to dissect the victims bodies. So it's a knife he really has taken time to like sharpen and make sure it's in the best possible form, which to be honest, is kind of a godsend in this type of a situation because I'd rather have something sharp nick my carotid and die quickly then try to have someone use like a very dull knife to do that. He bleeds to death within minutes, but not before Dahmer grabs his Polaroid camera and is like taking pictures of Miller dying and bleeding out. He puts Miller's body in the bathtub for dismemberment after he does the sex to it. While he is dismembering the rest of the body, he takes time to like kiss Miller's face and talk to him, which everything I read was really um, happy to point that out with this victim. But I'm pretty sure if you're going to do it to one victim, you probably do it to most victims. And let's be real. How many of us don't talk to random stuff when we're doing things? Like I talk to random stuff all the time, like, 'hey, cherry coke, how you doing? I'm going to put you in my mouth.' Um, which I am, but like, you know, I cannot be the only other person who does this and also isn't a serial killer. That's all I'm saying. He wraps Miller's heart, Miller's biceps, and parts of his legs in plastic bags and puts them in the fridge so he can eat them later. He boils the rest of the flesh and organs, and they turned into this jelly like substance because again he's using that Soilex and he wanted to keep the skeleton. So he rinses it off, puts the bones in this light bleach solution for 24 hours and then allows them to dry like, like you would with dishes, right. Um, and this is all stuff that his father had taught him to do - by the way. The severed head was initially placed in the refrigerator before being stripped of flesh and then painted and coated with an enamel, which is a smart move because at least it won't get as brittle as the other ones that he's had to discard at this point. He's learning. Three weeks after murdering Ernest Miller, on September 24th, Dahmer meets a 22 year old man named David. Thomas at the Grand Avenue Mall. It's a mall, but it's like weird because it's set up between several buildings and then there's like skywalks and like I, I was there like a decade ago going through the mall and being like, what the fuck is this place? It's weird. Anyway. It's not like Ye Grand Mall, okay? It's, it's a weird mall. Anyway, Dahmer persuades Thomas to come to the apartment for a few drinks and again with his MO of picking up people who are down on their luck or people who are sex workers. He offers money for nude photographs. Dahmer would later state that after giving Thomas a drink full of sedatives, he felt bad because he realized all of a sudden he wasn't attracted to Thomas, but he was still afraid to allow him to wake up in case he would have been angry about being drugged. So he decides to go through with strangling and dismembering. Since he wasn't attracted to Thomas, though, he intentionally doesn't keep body parts. He does take photographs throughout the dismemberment process and keeps them and honestly that's part of what led them to being able to identify this victim as being David Thomas. So, as creepy as it is that he took photographs - he didn't remember people's names, he probably didn't know many names - and these photographs at least allowed us to find the victim's families and let them know what had happened. I can't believe I'm saying I'm kind of grateful for these photographs. Jesus Christ. Um, okay. He doesn't kill anyone for like five months. He tries to bring a couple of guys back to his apartment during that time period. But like, you know, it just wasn't happening. So he takes all of that creative energy, you know, that you use when you do the same thing over and over again to dead bodies and starts planning the altar he wants in his apartment. And this is really interesting because it's got like different sets set ups. So he wanted this black shower curtain behind the altar, um, and was going to put that in front of a window. And then, um, I'll put a link in the show notes because this is wild. So on either side he's got skeletons that have been painted. And then there's a black table where he has the skulls that he's saved that have been painted. And then there's like one of those funky lights that has like several different bulb things coming down behind that in front of the window. And then he has like a little plaque above the window and a chair set up in front of the altar so that, you know, he could, uh, sit there and look at it. It's so creepy. He is also known to regularly complain of anxiety and depression to his probation officer throughout this time. And you know, talks a lot about being gay, being alone, not having a lot of money. And this is when he also starts talking about feeling suicidal. He was really careful if you think about it to select victims on the fringe of society. They were often itinerant or criminal or even criminal by association. They were children at times or even slightly older people, not too old, but still. And often he went after, men who were not white. Um, his first two victims were white. But I think the bulk of the rest of them are Black, Hispanic, Native American/Indigenous, and Asian. Like he picks people who are not white on a regular basis. And this actually led, once he's captured, to a lot of racial tension in Milwaukee, which is consistently battling with St Louis to be one the most segregated cities in the United States. Like whatever one is number one, the other one is either number two or three like it. They are consistently in the top three. Um, and just because it's 2019 doesn't mean that's changed a ton. I gotta tell Ya. In February of 1991, he observes a 17 year old named Curtis Straughter standing at a bus stop near Marquette University. He brings Straughter back to his apartment again with the idea of giving him money in exchange for nude photos. And he's also like, 'Hey, I'll pay you to do the sex.' Dahmer drugs and and strangles Straughter with a leather strap. Then dismembers him and keeps his skull, hands, and genitals. The head is put in the freezer along with several other heads at this point. On April 7th, he meets 19 year old Errol Lindsey who iss walking to get a key cut. Now Lindsey was straight, but Dahmer somehow gets him back to his apartment, drugs him, and this is where he starts his major experiment to try to zombify his victims because remember, he doesn't necessarily want them dead - and he later says this in interviews - but he wants them to not leave him. And what's the best way to get someone to not leave is to have complete control of them. And if somebody is in a Zombie like state, you can do that a lot easier then, uh, you can with just keeping them bound, especially in a safe way too. So, after being drugged, uh, Lindsey winds up with a hole in his skull - Dahmer drills a hole in and he pours hydrochloric acid right into Lindsay's brain. Lindsay wakes up, um, and says, 'I have a headache. What time is it?' He then collapses on the floor and, um, just keeps holding his head. At this point, Dahmer drugs him again and strangles him because he's like, well, this didn't work. He decapitates Lindsey, keeps his skull, flays the body, and actually places his skin in this solution of cold water and salt AKA like a brine for several weeks because he wanted to keep it. But of course that doesn't work. Um, so he tosses it eventually. At this point his apartment smells like awfulness and the other residents in the Oxford apartment building are continually like repeatedly complaining to management about foul smells, about falling objects, about hearing a chainsaw, etc. The manager Sopa Princewill contacts Dahmer in response to these complaints several times. Although Dahmer initially excuses the odors because he's like, 'aw, my freezer keeps breaking. And the, you know, the stuff inside got spoiled.' 'Oh my tropical fish just died. So they're kind of smelly and I haven't had a chance to like clean everything out,' et cetera. But we'll come back to his neighbors cause it will get wild. Anthony Hughes is a friend of Dahmer's and he's Deaf and mute. Um, so he can't hear and he can't speak. He communicates by signing with his hands and also by lip reading for people who don't know how to sign back to him. They are hanging out somewhere else when Dahmer's like, 'hey, you want to hang out at my house?' So they go back to the house, he drugs Hughes, drills a hole in a skull, and injects acid like he previously tried. But this time - and I'm not sure if it's because of the volume or the location of where he drilled - um, the injection winds up killing Hughes and Dahmer gets really sad about that. Like, he didn't want to kill his friend, he just wanted to keep him around and um, he gets really depressed. Like, I don't know... If you don't want to kill your friend, maybe don't do stuff that could kill your friend? That's all I'm saying. That's why I don't text and drive with friends in my car - only on my own. Um, he leaves Anthony's body to rot on his bedroom floor before dissolving it in acid several days later. And actually his body comes into play in this extremely close call I'm about to talk about. On the afternoon of May 26th in 1991, he meets a 14 year old kid on Wisconsin Avenue. The kid's name is Konerak and I cannot pronounce the last name because I am so white. Um, I'm going to try [failes miserably several times] Sinthasomphone. Um, I'm just going to keep calling him Konerak because I don't want to mess up his name several times. Um, he approaches Konerak and is like, 'Hey, I'll give you money for pictures.' And the kid's like, 'okay.' Um, actually the kid's really reluctant at first and then comes with him. He poses for two pictures in his underwear before Dahmer drugs him. Um, while he's drugged, he performs oral sex on this kid. And it's important to note this kid is actually the younger brother of the boy Dahmer molested in 1988 and was convicted of molesting after the kid had to go get his stomach pumped, um, from being drugged. And you know, the kid didn't know that Dahmer was that guy. He didn't remember. This is a couple years later. Um, but Dahmer also doesn't recognize kind of the familial resemblance. Um, it's not until quite a long ways later that they figure this out. But while Konerak is drugged, Dahmer drills a hole in his skull and injects hydrochloric acid right into the frontal lobe - o the front of your head. Before Konerak falls unconscious, Dahmer leads him into the bedroom where Anthony Hughes' body is sitting on the floor naked. And Dahmer says that he believed Konerak saw the body, but Konerak didn't react to it, which is probably because of a mixture of being really sedated and then also, I don't know, having acid in your brain. Soon, Konerak passes out. Dahmer drinks several beers while sitting there next to him and then is pretty sure that the experiment has failed again. He is really upset. So, now that he's out of alcohol, he decides he's going to go drink at a bar and then buy alcohol and come back and he's gone for a few hours. Konerak manages to not only wake up but to escape despite being injured and being incredibly out of it. Um, this kid was a bad ass. Dahmer's neighbor Sandra Smith calls police to report that there's an Asian boy running naked in the street and it's the early hours of the next day when Dahmer comes back to his apartment and he is greeted by Konerak sitting naked on the corner of 25th and state speaking in Lao - cause he he's Laotian - with three distressed, uh, young ish women standing near him. He approaches the trio and explains that Konerak - he uses a fake name by the way - was his friend and tries to get him back into the apartment, but the women are like, 'oh no, no, no, motherfucker. We called 911.' So, 2 officers show up - John Balcerzak and Joseph Gabrish. Dahmer is like really relaxed and he knows he's got to put on a show. So he tells the officers that Konerak who was 14 was his 19 year old boyfriend who had had too much to drink after they fought. And that he just acts like this a lot when he's drunk. The three women were like, 'Excuse the fuck out of me. Do you see that this kid is like actively bleeding from his ass and that he doesn't want to go anywhere with Dahmer? And like, this kid has been hurt.' The officers tell her to butt out, shut the hell up, and not to interfere in this "domestic situation." So the officers have a towel with them, they wrap Konerak up in it and bring him back to Dahmer's apartment. They do try to verify the claim that Dahmer and Konerak lovers. So Dahmer shows them like these pictures he'd just taken of the kid along with his neatly folded clothing - because if he was a victim, why would he fold his clothing, et cetera. The officers later report having noted a strange smell that kind of smelled like shit, um, inside the apartment. And clearly it was coming from Hughes' decomposing body. Dahmer stated that to investigate this, one of the officer's peeked his head around in the bedroom, but he clearly didn't take good look because he missed the body on the floor. The officers leave and tell Dahmer to take good care of Konerak. The thing is, had these officers done their due diligence and at least run a background check, um, like run Dahmer through their system? They would have seen that he was a convicted child molester and on probation. Um, and probably would have investigated this more deeply, especially since this kid is clearly a kid. Like I know it might be hard to tell whether someone's 14 or 19, but I think when you add the layer on that he's a convicted sex offender, that that gets less difficult. The cops leave and Dahmer's like, 'okay, time for round two.' He injects hydrochloric acid right into the frontal lobe again and um, kills Konerak. He takes the next day off of work to devote the entire day to dismembering the bodies of both Konerak and Hughes, and he keeps their skulls. Within a few days, there's an article that appears in the local paper about Konerak being missing and one of the women who had tried to protect him that night calls the police to tell them that like this was that kid. The police don't follow up with her at all. So we've had two spots right here where women - and probably honestly Black women - are saying like, 'Hey, this is this guy. This is what he's doing. Hello.' And police failed to investigate throughout this, this like giant murder period, right? Dahmer is able to maintain his job at Ambrosia Chocolate Factory. His friends and family weren't really suspicious even when they came to his house cause he would take care to really clean up before he let people come over. If he knew his family was coming, you know, he'd clean up, et cetera. The only thing that his father was suspicious of is, you know, Dahmer hasn't revealed that he's gay. By now, Lionel is like, 'yeah he gay - probably,' but they don't talk about it because toxic masculinity. To quell the neighbors, Dahmer by now has had a 57 gallon drum put in his apartment that he's filled with hydrochloric acid. So this way he's able to like dissolve bodies right away - very quickly - and has multiple ways of doing so, meaning less smell at this point. He also knows he needs to change things up a bit because that was really close call with Konerak. So he decides to take a Greyhound bus - cause he doesn't drive - to Chicago, which is about, well on a greyhound bus it's probably closer to three hours of a trip. You can make it in like an hour and a half depending on how fast you're going. That's all I'll say. On June 30th he meets a 20 year old named Matt Turner at the bus station. Turner is like, 'okay, I'll come with you to Milwaukee' because Dahmer has convinced him that he is a professional photographer and is going to have a photo shoot. At Dahmer's apartment, he drugs, strangles, and dismembers Turner, placing his head and internal organs in separate plastic bags in the freezer. Everything else was put into a vat of acid. Turner winds up not ever being reported missing. Five days later on July 5th, he lures a 23 year old - mm, I've seen his name either as Jeremy or Jeremiah. I'm going to go with Jeremiah - Jeremiah Weinberger from a Chicago bar to his apartment to spend the weekend with him. Before accepting the offer, Jeremiah asked a friend who he was at the bar with if the friend thought Dahmer was a safe person and that this would be okay. And the friend was like, 'okay, yeah, no, he seems really nice' - like after having a conversation. The two actually wind up having a really nice couple of days, um, until Weinberger's like, 'hey, I really got to go home. Like I have to go to work and shit.' And of course that's the part Dahmer hates. So he drugs Weinberger after requesting one last drink together. He twice injects boiling water into Weinberger's skull. The first time it didn't seem to work at all and Weinberger wakes up seemingly okay. Dahmer drugs him a second time and does the second injection that sends him into a coma and he actually dies 2 days later. During this kind of waiting period. Dahmer's like, 'okay, I'll go to work. Like, it's fine.' Even after that close call, which I think is brazen. Um, and he comes home after a shift to discover Weinberger dead. The body is dismembered and dissolved an acid, but the head is added to the growing collection in the freezer. The friend who greenlit Weinberger's visit to Dahmer's place later commit suicide because he feels hella guilty. I know what you're thinking right now. Uh, with all of these heads and body parts in the freezer, Dahmer was running outta room, right? He was. Like, honestly, he had no room for real food in his fridge or his freezer. Um, that really didn't stop him. On July 15th, he meets 24 year old Oliver Lacy at the corner of 27th and Kilburn. Lacy was an aspiring body builder and had just moved to Milwaukee from Illinois to live with his girlfriend and their kid. And Dahmer was like, 'Ooh, I like the muscle boys.' So, again, the proposition of posing nude and Lacy agrees. He goes back to Dahmer's apartment and they do some sexy times before Dahmer drugs him. Dahmer really wanted to spend as much time as possible with Lacy while Lacy was alive. So he tries to render Lacy unconscious with chloroform, which does not work. He has to strangle Lacy. And then, um, he has sex with the corpse before dismembering him. He placed Lacy's head and heart in the refrigerator and his skeleton in the freezer. And he had asked for like a days absence during all of this from work, which was granted, but then he was suspended because he kept missing work, right? And then his performance was getting shit. And on the 19th, he actually gets word that he's fired. He doesn't get to come to work anymore and he's distraught, he's pissed. And he goes to bar and approaches 25 year old father of three, Joseph Bradehoft. Like many other victims, he promised cash in exchange for nude photos. Bradehoft was strangled and left laying on Dahmer's bed covered with a sheet for two days. And on the 21st he removes the sheets to find Bradehoft's head covered in maggots. It's gross. He decapitates the body then cleans the head and places it in the refrigerator - which like, brah, that just had maggots - like, why? He later acidifies Bradehoft's torso along with those of the other two victims he killed within the previous month - so along with Lacy's body and Weinberg's. So that's kind of the end of his lucky streak. On July 22nd, 1991, he approaches three men with an offer of $100 to accompany him to his apartment to pose nude for photographs again. Um, but he throws in like, 'Hey, I've got a bunch of beer we can drink and we could just hang out.' Out of the trio, one of them agrees to come to the apartment and that's 32 year old Tracy Edwards. The other two agree to come party later, but Dahmer gives them the wrong address so they don't interrupt his fun. Upon entering Dahmer's apartment, Edwards notices it smells and also sees the acid on the floor. And he asks about it and Dahmer's like, 'Oh yeah, like I do Xyz for work. I use those to clean bricks.' Dahmer keeps pressuring Edwards to get naked and drink a spiked drink and he quickly changes from the sweet talker Dahmer from the bar to very pushy and angry. Edward's decides he probably should leave, and Dahmer distracts him and put a handcuff on his wrist. By the time Edwards is like, 'wait, what's happening?' Um, Dahmer brings Edwards to the bedroom to pose for nude pictures. While inside the bedroom, Edwards notes that there's nude male posters on the wall and that there is a video tape of The Exorcist III playing. This was Dahmer's favorite movie at the time and especially during those last couple of weeks - he got increasingly obsessed with it for some reason, nobody knows. Edwards also notes that 57 gallon drum in the corner that smells. Dahmer brandishes a knife and informs Edwards he intends to take nude photos of him. So Edwards unbuttons his shirt and says he would allow him to do that as long as he takes off the handcuffs and puts the knife away. In response to the promise, Dahmer simply just turns his attention towards the TV. Edwards sees Dahmer rocking back and forth and chanting before turning his attention back to Edwards. He places his head on Edwards' chest, listens to his heartbeat, and then with the knife pressed up towards his neck says that he intends to eat Edwards' heart. Edwards repeatedly says, 'you know, I'm your friend. I'm not going to go away. I promise. Like you don't have to worry, you don't need to attack me.' In his head, Edwards had already decided he was going to have to jump from a window or bolt through the unlocked front door at the next opportunity he had. Edwards says he needs to go to the bathroom and then he asks if they could sit with a beer in the living room because that's where the air conditioning unit was. And Dahmer agrees. So the pair walk to the living room. As soon as Edwards is done in the potty, inside the living room, Edwards waits until he observes that Dahmer has a momentary lapse of concentration. And then he asks to use the bathroom again. So Edwards gets up from the couch, saw that Dahmer was not holding onto the handcuffs, and he turns & punches Dahmer in the face - which knocked him off balance - and Edwards bolts for the front door. By about 1130 - and this is on July 22nd - he has flagged down 2 Milwaukee police officers at the corner of North 25th Street. Um, it took a while for them to understand this was not a domestic thing, but they did notice that he had handcuffs on his wrist. Um, and Edwards explains to them that a "freak," that's what he said, had placed the handcuffs on him and asked if the police could remove them. The police officers try but their keys failed to fit that brand. So Edwards, um, agrees to show the officers where this apartment was that he just spent, you know, several hours and they go. Dahmer invites the three people inside and acknowledges that yeah, he did put handcuffs on Edwards, but he says nothing about why - not a thing. And normally he's so quick with those explanations. At this point, Edwards also tells the officers Dahmer had brandished a very large knife and that this had happened in the bedroom. Dahmer says nothing about that. And he tells one of the officers that the key to the handcuffs was in his bedside dresser in the bedroom. So that officer goes to enter the bedroom. Dahmer tries to kind of block him to get the key himself. And the second officer tells him to back the fuck off. In the bedroom, [Officer] Muller notices that there is indeed a large knife beneath the bed. He also sees an open drawer which, upon closer inspection, contains tons of Polaroid pictures... Not only of naked dudes, but also of, like, the dismemberment process. He notes that the decor in the photos is the same as the apartment that they are in right now. He walks in the living room and shows them to his partner Robert Rauth and says, uh, these are real. When Dahmer sees that Muller's holding several of the Polaroids, he starts fisticuffs with the officers to try to resist arrest. They quickly overpower him, cuff his hands behind his back, and call a second squad car for backup. At this point, Muller is, um, you know, looking around, doing more investigating and opens the refrigerator to reveal the freshly severed head of a black man sitting on the bottom shelf. He's later recalls that he heard someone screaming before realizing that it was him. Like he was screaming himself. Dahmer is pinned on the floor by Rauth and he turns his head towards the officers and mutters the words "for what I did, I should be dead." Uh, yeah. Well, Edwards is deemed a hero. The publicity also is a negative thing for him. It helps the state of Mississippi catch up with him. They had a warrant out for his arrest due to sexually assaulting a 14 year old girl. Um, at least allegedly. He's arrested and charged with a crime, but I can't find anything about the outcome. I tried. By 2011, he is back in Milwaukee. He is homeless and he gets into a fight with two other homeless men, one of whom falls off of a bridge that they are on and drowns. Edwards winds up with time in prison and probation for, um, like aiding and abetting because - Well, one of the things that I saw said the guy just fell off. The other thing that I saw said the other guy pushed him off and then Edwards stayed quiet. And so that's why he got charged. I don't know. I don't know. But that shit's gone down. Back to Dahmer in 1991. A more detailed search at the apartment conducted by the Criminal Investigation Bureau reveals a total of four severed heads in Dahmer's kitchen. There are seven skulls - some painted, some bleached - in his bedroom and inside a closet. They discover collected blood drippings upon a tray at the bottom of Dahmer's fridge because apparently motherfucker does not clean that shit out. They also find 2 human hearts, part of an arm muscle, and those are all wrapped inside plastic bags on the shelves. In Dahmer's freezer, they discover an entire torso - plus a bag of human organs and flesh is stuck to the ice at the bottom of the freezer. [humorous wretching noises] They also discovered two skeletons, a pair of severed hands, 2 severed and preserved penises, a mummified scalp, and in the 57 gallon drum, three further dismembered torsos dissolving in the acidic solution. Um, there winds up being a total of 74 Polaroid photos that detailed dismemberment and sexual stuff. The chief medical examiner later states that it was more like dismantling someone's museum than an actual crime scene. Beginning in the early hours of July 23rd, Dahmer is questioned by detectives Patrick Kennedy and Patrick Murphy as to the murders he committed and the evidence found at his apartment. Over the following two weeks, the detectives conduct numerous interviews with Dahmer which, when combine,d wind up equaling to about 60 hours of face to face time with this motherfucker. He had waived his right to have a lawyer present and said he wanted to confess because he had "created this horror and it only makes sense. I do everything to put an end to it." He readily admits to having murdered 16 men in Wisconsin since 1987 and Steven Hicks back in Ohio in 1978. The detectives, uh, wind up being floored and disgusted because Dahmer's so matter of fact about all of this. He readily admits to performing necrophilia with several of his victims' bodies including performing sexual acts with their viscera as he dismembers their bodies in the bathtub. Now, um, what this means I have sadly learned is that he, you know... In the process of dismemberment, he cuts a hole, say like in the dude's belly button. And especially if the body is still a little warm, your body retains the most warmth in your core. I mean, you can tell if you go outside when it's cold, like your arms get cold, your legs get cold, but your core usually stays warmer because it has to cause you have like your heart and shit. Okay. So again, he, let's say he cuts a dude in the belly button and the body's kind of warm and that's a hole for things to go in... Yeah, it's gross. Uh, it's so gross. Mm. He noted that a lot of blood pooled inside his victims chests after death. So he usually would remove their internal organs first and then he'd suspend the torso. So all the blood drained into the bathroom. He then would dice any organs he didn't want to keep and then pull flesh off the body. Bones that he wanted to dispose of we're pulverized or, um, acidified with Soliex, and bleach solutions were used to aid in the preservation of skeletons and skulls that he wanted keep. He confessed to having consumed hearts, livers, biceps, and portions of thighs of several victims that he'd killed within the last year describing the increase in his rate of killings in the two months prior to his arrest. He's stated he'd been completely swept along and added. "It was an incessant and never ending desire to be with someone at whatever cost. Someone good looking, really nice looking. It just filled my thoughts all day long." This is, uh, I don't know why this is so wild to me. I mean, I do because it's a wild case, but it's, it feels so disturbing. When asked why he had preserved seven skulls and the entire skeletons of two victims, he shared about his private altar that he wanted to make. The display of skulls was to be adorned at each side with the complete skeletons of Ernest Miller and Oliver Lacy. The 4 severed heads in the kitchen we're going to be removed to all flesh and used on the altar and he still needed one more victim to complete the skull number that he wanted on this altar. Incense sticks we're going to be placed at the end - each end of this table above which he was going to put a large blue lamp with extending blue globe lights. It those lights that are like an octopus thing, right? So you've got the stand and then there's several different arms with the, with these blue globe lights. And this is, again, all to be placed in front of a window that had been covered with a black opaque shower curtain. And then he was going to sit in front of it in a black leather chair. In a November 18th, 1991 interview, they asked who the altar was dedicated to and he said "myself. It's a place I could feel at home." He further described it as kind of a place for meditation where he felt he could draw power from, and he felt that if they had arrested him six months later, that they would have already seen the altar - that it would be complete which, at the rate he was going, I could see it. Um, I don't know if the whole thing would be complete, but he had at least have all the components he wanted. He also - it's interesting - he explained that things he does to the bodies like preserving certain parts, taking souvenirs in the form of body parts, et cetera. Um, the photos, whatever. All of that was a way of remembering. And this is, this part's a quote, "remembering their appearance, their physical beauty. I also wanted to keep - if I couldn't keep them here with me whole, at least I felt I could keep their skeletons." On July 25th, 1991, he is charged with four counts of murder and by August 22nd, he is charged with a further 11 counts in the state of Wisconsin. Again, brings the grand total up to 15. on September 14th, investigators in Ohio have like, by this time they have gone back to his childhood home and explored the woods right there and found a shit ton of bone fragments. They formally identify two mplars and a Vertebra with x ray records of Steven Hicks and he's charged by authorities in Ohio with Steven's murder. He winds up not being charged with the attempted murder of Tracy Edwards or with the murder of Steven Tuomi. Now for Tuomi, it was because the Milwaukee County district attorney only wanted to bring charges where there could be no reasonable doubt. And since Dahmer didn't actually have a memory of killing Tuomi, um, and there was like no physical evidence of it, they didn't feel like they had enough to proceed - And that including that within this larger, um, number of charges could actually hinder the ability for him to be charged successfully and like convicted. At a scheduled preliminary hearing on January 13th, 1992 he pleads guilty but insane to 15 counts of murder. His trial begins on January 30th, 1992 - the day my sister was born. I spent the day like in the hospital holding her while she slept after she was born. While she was getting pushed out, like watching The Jungle Book. Um, I dunno, for me, it was a great day. He was tried in Milwaukee for those 15 counts before Judge Laurence Gram. By pleading guilty and on the 13th, he had waived his rights to that initial trial to establish guilt, um, something that is at least required by Wisconsin law. The issue debated by opposing attorneys then is whether or not he was sane. The prosecution says that any disorders he did have clearly did not, um, deprive him of the ability to appreciate how wrong his actions were - and/or I guess that they wouldn't have deprived him of the ability to control his impulses. And the defense were like, "Nah." I mean, basically their experts argued thought he was insane due to his necrophilic drive. And one of their experts, Dr Fred Berlin, testifies that Dahmer's unable to conform his conduct at the time he committed crimes because he was suffering from necrophilia, which is also known as paraphilia. Dr. Judith Becker, who is a professor of psychiatry and psychology, was their second witness, who also, you know, comes at them with that diagnosis. And then forensic psychiatrist, Dr Karl Walstrom not only diagnosis Dahmer with that, but throws in borderline personality disorder, schizotypal personality disorder, alcohol dependence, and a psychotic disorder. All of that is a lot. But I also want us to step back and take a look at - are there people with BPD, borderline personality disorder that don't kill people? Oh yeah. Are there people who have schizophrenia or any similar disorder and don't kill people? Like all of them. Um, what about people who are dependent on alcohol? Oh, good amount of them don't kill people unless they're driving. I just want us to take a look at that because, yes, you could have those things, but those things do not drive someone to kill. Having a mental illness, having a chronic illness, having a disability, those things do not make it more likely for you to commit crimes. In fact, they actually make it more likely for you to be a victim of crimes. Um, and depending on your diagnosis, that can be anywhere from up to like two times more likely, all the way up to like 10 times more likely then, you know, the average mentally abled person. So I just wanna throw that out there. There will be links in the show notes for ya'll to educate yourself further on that if that's something you're into. This is the social justice corner for the week. Having a chronic illness, disability or mental health issue does not make you a murderer. Thank you for coming to my tedtalk. Okay. Back to this, right. The prosecution is like, "no, he's not insane." Um, one of their experts, forensic psychiatrists, Dr Philip Resnick testifies that, yeah, Dahmer likes to do the sex to dead people, but it's not a primary condition because he actually prefers live sexual partners - which is why he was trying to zombify people, right? He doesn't want them dead. He just wants him to do exactly what he wants them to do. He wants control. And so it's not true necrophilia. Another one of their experts, Dr Fred Fosdel says that he believes Dahmer was without mental disease or defect of the time he committed these murders. He says Dahmer is calculating and cunning, able to differentiate between right and wrong, and definitely able to control his own actions. He does believe necrophilia is something Dahmer deals with, but also says he's not like a sadist. He's not necessarily, um, you know, going out with this need to harm people. Um, it's essentially derived from - I'm on a wiki spiral. It's derived from the Marquis de Sade. So sadists are people who derive pleasure if they, or someone else is undergoing pain. And it can actually be a part of personality disorders, which I mean, again, we're going to take a look at and say, hmm, does it make it, does it make you a terrible person? If you have a personality disorder? No. Does it mean you're going to do bad things? No. Anyway, um, the final witness for the prosecution is forensic psychiatrist Park Dietz, and um, he begins his testimony on February 12th. He says, the Dahmer's completely sane. Um, because you know, he's gone to great lengths to be alone with his victims. He's gone to great lengths to have no witnesses. There's ample evidence that he was really prepared. These crimes were not impulsive, um, and all of that. Right? So he believes, too, that Dahmer's alcohol dependence before committing murder is something that's significant. And he says, if he had a compulsion to kill, he would not have to drink alcohol. He had to drink alcohol to overcome his inhibition to do the crime, which he would rather not do. I think that's really important. He also notes the Dahmer strongly identifies with evil and corrupt characters from The Exorcist III - which we already know he's obsessed with - and also Return of the Jedi. He also really identified with the power that these evil corrupt characters had. He saw himself on a similar level. Dahmer would occasionally like wash his favorite scenes from these movies before he went out and looked for a victim and really took power from them, which is creepy. It's creepy. Don't turn my Star Wars into your creepy stuff. I know this was before me, but don't do it - well, not before me, like before I was super obsessed with Star Wars. Given the fact that the majority of Dahmer's victims were African American. Um, there were, like I mentioned, some big racial tensions. Um, it got to the point where we were having a number of, um, you know, racial justice leaders coming in to lead marches, give talks, et cetera. Strict security precautions were taken around the trial. So there was an eight foot barrier of bulletproof glass between Dahmer and other people. Um, one of the things that also pissed off people was there was only one Black person on the jury, which like, I don't know, I'm sorry, but if a lot of this, a lot of what this person has done is negatively affected the Black community locally, you should have more than one Black person on the jury. Also like one Black person on a jury in Milwaukee is not, um, it does not represent a jury of your peers. Like I'm just going to be honest. Like it's just like in everywhere else. You wouldn't just have one Black person on a jury. It's, it makes me mad. Anyway. Um, and then another thing to note is that Lionel Dahmer, Jeffrey's Dad and his second wife, um, attended the trial throughout. Two court appointed mental health professionals both independently testifyed - forensic scientist George Palermo and clinical psychologist Samuel Friedman. Palermo thinks that the murders were result of pent up aggression the Dahmer had within himself. He wanted to kill these men cause he thought they were attractive. And so like he was trying to kill what he hated in himself and also thinks that Dahmer's a sexual sadist who has antisocial personality disorder but is sane. It's amazing how many different personality disorders they're going to try to diagnose Dahmer with - amazing. Um, Friedman testifies that it was more of a longing for companionship that caused him to kill. He says Dahmer's not psychotic, speaks kindly of Dahmer. Um, talks about how he's amiable, pleasant to be with. Nice, funny, handsome, (I don't think so) charming, et cetera. He diagnoses Dahmer with a personality disorder not otherwise specified, featuring borderline, obsessive-compulsive, and sadistic traits. I will say out of all of the diagnoses, um, that one may feel like it fits the most. Um, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not a mental health professional, but I do think that it is important to note when a personality disorder or any other, you know, mental illness has certain traits. So maybe it's just that like, I like how it's laid out. I don't know. I don't know these things. It just feels somehow a better fit than some of the others. Perhaps it also includes because it includes the obsessive compulsive trait. I don't know. Anyway, the trial lasted two weeks. On February 14th, both lawyers give their closing arguments. They speak for like two hours. The defense attorney Gerald Boyle goes first and keeps referring to the mental health professionals - just about everyone said he had some sort of mental health issue. And, um, one of the big sticking points, and it's been quoted in a lot of different things, is that he says that Dahmer's compulsive killings had been a result of "a sickness he discovered, not chose." He keeps painting Dahmer as desperately lonely, profoundly sick, out of control. Um, and you know, I can see where that could sway some people on the jury. After that, Michael Mccann delivers his closing argument for the prosecution. He describes Dahmer as sane, in full control. He simply strove to to avoid detection. He argued that that first murder in Milwaukee - again because this is for all the Milwaukee/Wisconsin crimes - that it was committed hostility and anger and resentment and frustration and hatred and all these big negative feelings and that each victim "died merely to afford Dahmer a period of sexual pleasure." He further argued that by pleading guilty but insane to the charges, Dahmer was trying to avoid accountability or responsibility for his actions. The next day, February 15th, the court reconvenes to hear the verdict. Dahmer was ruled to be sane - not suffering from a mental disorder at the time of each of these murders - although in each count, two of the 12 jurors signified their dissent. On the first two counts, Dom Dahmer was sentenced to life imprisonment plus 10 years with the remaining 13 carrying a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment plus 70 years. The death penalty was not an option because, we in the great state of Wisconsin had that abolished in 1853. Dahmer addressed the court later on and he said, Your Honor, it is over now. This has never been a case of trying to get free. I didn't ever want freedom. Frankly, I wanted death for myself. This was a case to tell the world that I did what I did not for reasons of hate - I hated no one. I knew I was sick of evil or both - now I believe I was sick. The doctors have told me about my sickness and now I have some peace... I take all the blame for what I did... I should have stayed with God,” he said. “I tried and I failed, and created a holocaust." [audibly cringing] We're going to get back to that statement in a second. I just want to finish this part. In addition to expressing remorse for victims and their families, he expressed remorse for causing two policemen to lose their jobs - the policemen that failed to rescue Konerak. He said, "I hope and pray that they get their jobs back because I know they did their best and I just plain fooled them." In both of these statements we see his cockiness, right? "I've created a holocaust." Holocaust is such a big grandiose genocidal act, which is not what he did. And all of these poor cops, I just fooled them. It's not their fault, I'm just that good. Even in this statement, he is reasserting his control of these situations and reasserting the fact that he is better than everyone else in that room. And honestly he's probably doing it with a boner. Let's be honest. People like this thrive and get thrills out of having power over other people. I mean, it's what they do, right? Of course, the statement really wasn't consoling and definitely wasn't convincing. There were a number of powerful impact statements from family members that were read. And, um, so far I've only found one video that puts together a lot of snippets of, um, some of those statements, but I'll put that link to that video in the show notes. Um, there's a really, it's really important I think, to read them, to remember that this is not just like, Ooh, creepy story, but look, this case affected so many more lives than just - 'just' - these 17 people that Jeffrey killed and then his own family, right? It's these people's families, these people's friends. It's Weinberger's friend who commits suicide, right? Because of saying that Dahmer seemed like he was okay. Um, all of these different people struggling with the actions of this man. One of the most impactful victim statements is at the very end of that video Um, so please watch it because I think that's important. Upon hearing of Dahmer's sentencing, his father and his stepmother request to be allowed a 10 minute private meeting with him before he's transferred to the Columbia Correctional Institution in Portage to begin his sentence. The request is granted and they exchange hugs, um, and well wishes before Dahmer is escorted to begin his sentence. Three months after that conviction, he's extradited to Ohio to be tried for the murder of Steven Hicks. It's really just a formality at this point because, again, he has confessed. So the court hearing lasts just 45 minutes. He again pleads guilty and he's sentenced to a 16th term of life imprisonment on May 1st, 1992. After that, he has transferred back to the Columbia Correctional Institution in Portage, Wisconsin. Um, Portage is in again, Columbia County - it's the Columbia correctional facility, right? It is technically part of the Madison metropolitan area, but to be honest, I don't know that I would consider it that. Um, it is really... I mean, I guess? It's north of Madison and just to the east of Wisconsin Dells, so it makes sense to lump it in with Madison, but it's about a 45 minute drive. Like, it is not necessarily close, but I guess that's Wisconsin for ya, right? Hooray! For the first year of his incarceration, Dahmer is placed in solitary confinement. They were worried about his safety should he come into contact with fellow inmates. And we're talking like some of the worst people are in this prison. Right? You've got other serial killers, you've got other, um, rapists, other molesters, and they all absolutely despise this man. I think there's something to be said with that. I don't know what, but... While Dahmer is isolated, he does have a television and access to books, so he's probably blasting like Exorcist III and reading all the Exorcist novels while he's holed up in his cell for a year. After that - and with his consent - he is transferred to a less secure unit after a year. Um, and then he is assigned like a two hour daily work detail, cleaning the toilets. He was actually really happy to get out of solitary because he felt his intrusive, disturbing thoughts were way more harmful than anything anyone else could do to him. He also didn't give a fuck if he lived or died. He had regular phone calls with his family. His father actually visited a lot, making the 11 hour drive from his home in Ohio. He really wanted to understand why Jeffrey committed these crimes, um. To that end, you know, he writes a book, he does a lot of interviews with Jeffrey. He tries to work to figure out the puzzle pieces that, you know, what, what was that last piece that slid into place that caused Jeffrey to really go from very excited, exuberant kid he'd been before that hernia surgery in his youth, right, to where he is now. Shortly after completing his lengthy confessions in 1991 he [Dahmer} had requested that he be given a Bible. And from then on he really devoted himself to being a Christian and you know, use the phrase 'born again.' And his father also like urged him to read a bunch of creationist bullshit. His father - Um, there is an interview I watched earlier, I'm sure it's in the links, but um, with Stone Phillips, and Stone Phillips asks Lionel what um, Lionel would have done had Jeffrey come out as gay, you know, without killing everyone. And Lionel said that he was - and this is paraphrasing, right? - he basically would have made him read the Bible and like try to do something to 'fix him' AKA probably send him off to conversion therapy camp. Which is terrifying. And if you don't know about conversion therapy camps, y'all - whoooo - I'm going to put a link in the shownotes - a couple lins for you to checkout. Um, one of which is a great episode of the podcast True Crime Obsessed (which I'm obsessed with). Um, I think that's the one called Jesus Camp. I mean, whatever one I put in the show notes is it, but if you've listened, you probably know which one I'm talking about. In May, 1994 Dahmer is baptized in the prison whirlpool by Roy Ratcliffe, who is a minister in the Church of Christ and a graduate of Oklahoma Christian University. He visits Dahmer on a weekly basis until Dahmer dies. And they regularly discuss things like death and whether or not Dahmer was sinning against God by continuing to live. And that's Dahmer bringing this up. in July, 1994, a fellow inmate Osvaldo Durruthy attempts to slash Dahmer's throat with a razor embedded in a toothbrush. Um, and it was right after Dahmer was coming back from Roy's weekly church service in the prison chapel. Dahmer gets, you know, some superficial wounds but doesn't wind up seriously hurt. They had a conversation and Dahmer's family said, you know, he'd been ready to die already and was ready to accept whatever punishments he might endure in prison. His mom, um, also retained regular contact with him at least over the phone, um, in contrast to like his dad and step mom coming to visit every so often. But prior to, um, Dahmer's arrest, he hadn't seen his mom since Christmas of 1983. Um, but now at this point he's talking to her on a weekly basis over the phone. And whenever she would express concerns about his wellbeing, he would say, 'you know, um, don't worry. Whatever happens, it'll be fine.' And this one's a direct quote: "It doesn't matter, Mom. I don't care if something happens to me." In a 1994 interview with Stone Philips - Okay, so this is the one I was just watching. It was on Dateline - Dahmer had stated that "If a person doesn't think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what's the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought anyway." So before he'd become, you know, Super Goddy, right? He didn't think there was any higher power and so he didn't think it mattered what his actions were. This is essentially what he's saying there. So now that he's born again, he realizes the error of his ways and all that good shit. Um, and supposedly wouldn't do this again. Supposedly. On the morning of November 28th, 1994 Dahmer left his cell to conduct his assigned work detail in the toilets. I just, I like the idea of Dahmer having to work in the shitter. Oh, I like it so much. Um, accompanying him were 2 fellow inmates, Jesse Anderson and Christopher Scarver. The trio wound up being left unsupervised in the prison gym, like shower, toilet area for approximately 20 minutes. And, at 8:10 AM, Dahmer is discovered on the floor of the bathrooms, suffering from extreme head and facial wounds. He had been severely bludgeoned in the head and face with a metal bar. His head had also been repeatedly struck against the wall - shit. Although he was still alive and then and then was quickly rushed to a nearby hospital, he died within an hour. Anderson had also been beaten with the same instrument and died two days later from his wounds. Scarver who had already been serving a life sentence for murder committed in 1990, um, comes clean. He tells authorities he attacked Dahmer first with the metal bar as Dahmer was cleaning a staff locker room before attacking Anderson as Anderson cleaned an inmate locker room. Um, they were in, you know, kind of separate areas, which is weird to me that they were still left on supervised - at all. According to Scarver, Dahmer did not yell or make any noise when he was attacked. He had been adamant at the time he had not planned the attacks in advance. He did later divulge to investigators that he concealed the 20 inch iron bar to kill both men in his clothing shortly before the killings, though. There were questions about how involved the prison staff might have been in these murders. Surprise. Scarver hadn't been on toilet detail until literally that morning. He completely loathed Dahmer. He carried around a newspaper clipping about Dahmer's crimes and just completely hated him. Additionally, it's highly irregular for guards to leave inmates alone together at a maximum security prison like Columbia. Hmm. Weird, isn't it? In 2015 Scarver, speaks to the New York post about his reasons for killing Dahmer. He alleged that he was disturbed not only by Dahmer's crimes, but by a habit of Dahmer, um, where he would take prison food and make it look like severed limbs and then squirt ketchup all over the place to look like blood. This fits very much in with the shit that he pulled as a kid, right? Um, and then he would like taunt and antagonize people. So that was part of the reasoning. And he also alleged that both Dahmer and Anderson had, um, taunted him during work detail while they were in completely different spots. He said he confronted Dahmer about his crimes and Dahmer seemed to be unrepentant and that's when he beat him to death. He also claimed the prison guards allowed the murders to happen and that's why they left him alone with these guys. One more thing about the death that puzzles me and many other people is that Dahmer was in really good physical shape. I mean, what do you do in prison? You work out like that's what you do - and I guess make jokes with your food. Um, he could easily have fought back. I mean, a metal bar is no joke, but like he could have fought back and Scarver says he didn't, and his wounds say he didn't. That just leads me back to this whole idea where he's shared his thoughts consistently from his teens even about being suicidal, about not deserving to live, and about questioning if living spits in the face of God. And it, it feels like he wanted it. Um, one of the things that I watched was talking about how, as a born again Christian, he knows that suicide is a no-no, but then if someone else killed you, that's not suicide and you don't necessarily have to fight back. Like I dunno. I thought that was an interesting thought. In Dahmer's will, he asked that there be no services conducted. And he stated he wanted to be cremated. And by September, 1995, he was, and his ashes were split between his parents. His estate was awarded to the families of 11 of his victims who had sued for damages. In 1996, Thomas Jacobson, a lawyer that represents eight of the families, announced that they were planning an auction of his estate. Although victims' relatives stated that the motivation wasn't greed, 'eople were like, oh my God, you're so greedy. Like, dude, I don't know, especially for the people who had kids - at this point, they've gone without, um, you know, the income that parent would have had. I don't know. It's not greed to ask for any sort of reparations or monetary or property payment. I would say like for wrongdoings that you've been through. I think honestly like early nineties peoples weren't there yet in the mindset there was not enough Judge Judy {laughs] I hate that bitch. She's an awful human being. So just FYI. A civic group, Milwaukee Civic Pride was quickly established in an effort to raise funds to purchase and destroy Dahmer's positions. They pledged a little over $400,000 including $100,000 gift by a Milwaukee real estate developer for the purchase of Dahmer's estate. Five of the eight families agree to the terms and Dahmer's possessions were subsequently destroyed and buried in an undisclosed landfill in Illinois. Oh my God. I accidentally scrolled like way up. That was terrifying. On August 5th, 1991 a candlelight vigil to celebrate and heal the Milwaukee community was put on and over 400 people attended. So it was really well attended. There were community leaders, gay rights activist, family members, and they really wanted it to be a spot for people to share their feelings of anger and pain and frustration. And it worked. You know, they got out those feels. And I think it did bring the community closer together, although it also definitely pointed out - like this whole shenanigan right pointed out the lack of fucks the police gave about queer people and especially queer people of color. That's still going on. And the recent serial killings in Toronto are a, uh, good way to say that this, uh, It's not a thing of the past. I'll put a link to that too. I'm going to put a link to everything. The Oxford apartments where Dahmer had killed 12 of his victims were demolished in November of [1992]. The site is a vacant lot still. Um, there've been like these thoughts about like, oh, how do we, how do we fix this piece of land? Do we build a memorial garden or a park or a playground or new housing? And it just never happens. Which honestly, from a ghost perspective, pretty glad about. Lionel released a book in 1994 called A Father's Story where he explores Jeffrey's life and tries to examine what happened. He also talks about their similarities. It's pretty interesting, like I watched a snippet of him reading some, and it was interesting. I think we all have some issues about having control over things. But Lionel tended to blame himself and then also his wife who had been on some medications during like her pregnancy with Jeffrey, that Lionel's pretty sure caused Jeffrey to be a serial killer. I don't think that's how it works, dude. In fact, I'm like 99.999999 to the ninth percent sure that's not how it works. Jeffrey's younger brother - cause remember he has a younger brother - David, he changed his last name. He lives in anonymity. He's not doing any fucking interviews and shit. He's not having it and honestly good for him cause fucking bullshit. I wouldn't want my sister to have to deal with that. I will say it's interesting. Um, there is an odd amount of pride that Wisconsinites seem to feel talking about Dahmer and it's weird. Um, there's an episode of the Netflix show Dark Tourist where he visits spots in the United States and one of the tours they go on is The Cream City Cannibal Tour and it is so disturbing. They make a lot of jokes, which like, okay, I'd probably laugh at the jokes, but then they have like some jump scares along the tour route and stuff? And that just feels wrong. I mean, the jokes are probably a bit much too, if we're honest, but like jump scares? it's wrong. Um, and I mean that tour had been shut down for a time to get it's shit back together before it started to back up. So there's some shit. Um, you know, the other thing is that there's just so much incredibly wrong when we have tours that are light hearted and also only exists to cash in and make light of what happened? And I would say, especially when those tours tend to attract white women. You know, the, the bulk of the audience on this Dar

Content note: animal abuse, murder, rape, sexual violence, torture, necrophilia, child molestation, drug use and misuse, cannibalism, and ableism. Photo: Mug shot of Dahmer taken by the Milwaukee Police Department, July 1991 The Jeffrey Dahmer case is a wild ride, so it's time for the first 2-parter. Find out how Dahmer got his start. This episode goes right up until he moves into the notorious apartment on North 25th Street. Resources Wiki Biography Crime Museum Inside the Mind of Jeffrey Dahmer: Serial Killer’s Chilling Jailhouse Interview Transcription Welcome to this first 2 part episode of the Spooky Sconnie podcast. This is the podcast that talks about everything that is interesting, funky, spooky, criminal, and just plain weird from the state of Wisconsin. For this episode & the next episode, we will be talking about Jeffrey Dahmer who is probably the most well known serial killer from the State of Wisconsin. And being on top of that, he is relatively recent. Um, he was still killing people when I was like four. So a lot of older millennials are very aware and, um, I think probably have memories of, um, you know, seeing information about this case on the news depending on if they were allowed to watch the news a young age. I didn't have any barriers on what I could watch, so I watched a lot. Um, a couple of content notes for these two episodes. Uh, because this is a wild case. We're going to be talking about [animal abuse], murder, rape, sexual violence, torture, necrophilia, child molestation, drug use, and misuse, cannibalism and ableism. So Woo, prepare yourself. Let's just start right in. Just do it. ----more---- Jeffery Lionel Dahmer was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin on May 21st, 1960. He was the first of two sons to be born to Joyce, Annette Flint and Lionel Herbert Dahmer. Joyce worked as a teletype machine instructor and his father was studying at Marquette University working towards a degree in chemistry. There are conflicting reports on whether or not, uh, Dahmer had a lot of attention as a child. Some accounts say he was very doted upon, others say he was not. Um, it's really difficult to say, I think. He was described as an energetic and happy child until age four when he had to have surgery to correct a double hernia. And he seemed to go through a lot of changes after that. He recalled his early years of family life being of extreme tension, which he noted between his parents who were constantly arguing with each other. At elementary school, he was regarded as quiet and timid. And on his first grade or report card, one teacher described him as a reserved child whom she sensed felt neglected, and she thought that this neglect stemmed from his mother's chronic health issues. And we can talk all about that on my other podcast, it's called the chronic sex podcast where I talk about a lot of things that have to do with chronic illness, disability and sexuality. So while that is not, uh - while parenting with a chronic illness is not something I've covered yet, that is definitely on the docket for that one. But needless to say, somebody can be chronically ill or disabled and still be a great parent, so let's not resort to ableism with that. Cool. During this time, Joyce had been spending a lot of time in bed recovering from probably a flare up of a condition. Um, it's unknown or un-noted from the information I found. A lot of it seemed to suggest she was just hysterical and wanted attention and that is clearly not true. Lionel was studying so much that he was away a lot. And when he was home he needed to help Joyce a lot. So that's where a lot of the, um, assumption that maybe Jeffrey didn't get enough attention comes from, I think. From an early age, Dahmer was really interested in animals. Friends would later recall that he collected a lot of large insects, dragon flies, butterflies and keep them in jars. You know, something that a lot of kids do. Don't use jars because they can't breathe. But you know, you don't know that when you're a kid. Later on he would start collecting carcasses from the road side. And, you know, sometimes his friends would come along. He would dismember these animals at home in an expansive woodland behind the family home according to one friend. Not only would he does dismember the animals, he would store their body parts in jars behind the family's tool shed and would explain that he was curious as to how each animal fit together. In one instance, he decapitated the carcass of a dog before nailing the animal's body to a tree. And later impaled the skull of the dog upon a stake behind a wooden cross in the wood behind his house, woods behind his house, sorry. His fascination with dead animals might've begun around the age of four when he saw his father removing animal bones from underneath the house. And according to the father, um, Dahmer was oddly thrilled by the sounds of the bones made and really became fixated on playing with and looking out for animal bones. He constantly would search beneath the home for more bones. And, um, when he was around live animals like pets, he would constantly like feel around to try to figure out where the bones were. If you take away like the dismemberment part, I feel like he could have been a good like vet, I don't know. I don't know. He became increasingly withdrawn following the birth of his younger brother. And then the family moved around a lot, which did not help the moves to Doylestown, Ohio in October 66 when Joyce was pregnant with um, Dahmer's brother and when he was born on December 18th, 1966, Jeffrey was allowed to choose the name of the baby and he chose David. The same year. Lionel got his degree and was able to go to work in Akron, Ohio. By his early teens, Jeffery was really tense, really out of it, didn't really have friends and he began binge drinking and heavy drinking for fun, which is not great. He claims that his compulsions toward necrophilia and murder began around the age of 14. And um, you know, it appears that the breakdown of his parents' marriage and their divorce a few years later could have been the major catalyst for moving from just having these thoughts to really enacting them. In 1968, the family moved again to Bath, Ohio. Two years later, um, they were eating chicken and Jeffrey asks his father what would happen if the bones of the chicken were to be placed in a bleach solution. So Lionel was really excited that Jeffrey, you know, was asking these scientific questions because he'd been worried about Jeffrey's attitude. And so he willingly demonstrated to Jeffrey how to bleach and later preserve animal bones. The knowledge regarding cleansing and preserving bones was used on many animal remains that Jeffrey continued to collect. From his freshman year in high school, he was seen as an outcast by people around him and um, he really didn't have many friends. Many of his classmates would later recall being disturbed by the fact that he drank beer and hard alcohol, that he smuggled into the school and concealed in his locker. Drinking would happen all throughout school. Um, on one occasion a classmate saw Jeffery drinking a cup of gin and asked why he was drinking liquor in class. And Jeffrey replied, "it's my medicine." He was largely uncommunicative. He was observed by staff to be a polite student who was known to be really smart. He achieved only average grades though, which they were pretty sure was because he was pretty apathetic and just didn't give a fuck. He played tennis. Um, and he also played in the band for a bit. When Jeffrey reached puberty, he realized, like many of us do, that he was not straight. Um, he figured out that he was gay. He didn't want to tell his parents. He did engage in a brief relationship in his teens, but they never really did much sexually, which is fine. Um, later on he began fantasizing about dominating and controlling someone who is completely submissive. These fantasies would gradually grow and become intertwined with this idea of dissection and, and looking inside this body to see how it worked, just like he'd done with the animals. When he was 16 years old, he conceived a rape fantasy of rendering a male jogger that he found attractive unconscious and raping him. He concealed himself in the bushes on the route that he had noted the jogger took every day. Um, he had a baseball bat in his hand and waited for the jogger to come by. But the jogger was not out that day. Dahmer never attempted to implement this plan again, but stated that this was his first real attempt to attack another human being. Despite being regarded as a loner, he was also known as a class clown and staged a lot of pranks. Some of them clearly were to make other people laugh, but others were really to get attention. These pranks became known as 'doing a Dahmer' and included some really horrible things, uh, making random noises and ablest bullshit, like faking a seizure or acting as though they were physically or mentally impaired.. and it makes me want to punch him even more than I already do. By 1977 Dahmer's grades had tanked because of his alcohol abuse. His parents hired a private tutor for him, but the tutor really couldn't help that much. The parents attended counseling sessions the same year to try to resolve their personal differences and save their marriage, but that was unsuccessful and they decided to divorce. Initially the divorce was amicable. They were like, 'okay, this just isn't working.' But the parents began to fight even more and more, and in early 1978 Lionel decided to just move out of the house. In May, Jeffrey graduated from high school. A few weeks before his graduation, one of his teachers saw him sitting close to the school parking lot and drinking a lot of beer and the teacher threatened to report the matter. And Jeffery was like, 'look, there's a lot of problems at home. The, the guidance counselor is aware of them. It's okay. Just let me be.' After this, Joyce was awarded custody of her younger son, and she and David left and moved in with family back in Wisconsin. Jeffrey, though, was legally an adult and you know, didn't have to follow anyone anywhere. Um, at the time he was living alone in the family home really after, um, graduating high school in 1978. Three weeks after graduation, um, he picked up a hitchhiker named Steven Hicks and took him home. Jeffrey proceeded to get the man drunk and when Steven decided to leave Dahmer, killed him by striking him in the head and strangling him with a 10 pound barbell from behind. The following day. Dahmer, dissects Hicks' body in the crawl space, he later buries the remains in a shallow grave in the backyard before several weeks later unearthing those remains and paring the flesh from the bones. He dissolves the flesh in acid before flushing the solution down the toilet. He then crushed the bones with a sledge hammer and scattered them in the woodland behind the family home. Six weeks after murdering Steven Hicks, um, Jeffrey gets a surprise visit from his father Lionel and Lionel's new fiancée. They hadn't realized he was living alone at the house. And upon coming back they were like, 'okay, like you can stay here, but you've got stuff you have to do.' So, um, that August Jeffrey enrolls at Ohio State University and his goal was to major in business. He stayed for one term, though, and was really unproductive because he kept abusing alcohol. He received failing grades in introduction to anthropology, classical civilizations and administrative science. The only course he did well at was riflery - like shooting rifles - where he received a B minus grade. His overall GPA because of that was 0.45 out of 4.0 - not good. On one occasion, Lionel decided to pay a surprise visit to his son on campus only to find his room strewn with empty liquor bottles. Lionel had paid it in advance for the second term, but Dahmer left after just three months of school. By the time of his first murder - killing Steven Hicks - Jeffrey's alcohol consumption had spun out of control. You know, he dropped out, his father had gotten remarried and was living locally and his father was like, 'look, you should join the army.' So Jeffrey did. Um, he enlisted in December, 1978 late in that month and was posted to Germany shortly thereafter. Unfortunately, he still had his drinking problem and in um, early 1981, the army granted him an honorable discharge because his superiors did not believe that problems Dahmer had the army would be applicable to civilian life. Um, while he was in the army, there are theories that he may have engaged in murders in Germany and German authorities later investigated possible connections between him and murders that took place in the area while he was there, but they don't think it was him. Two soldiers attested to being raped by Dahmer while in the army, one of whom stated in 2010 that while stationed at Baumholder Dahmer had repeatedly raped him over a 17-month period, while another soldier believes Dahmer drugged and raped him inside an armored personnel carrier in 1979. Neither of these things were ever investigated. On March 24th, 1981 Dahmer was set sent to Fort Jackson, South Carolina for debriefing and he was provided with a plane ticket to travel anywhere in the country. Dahmer later told police he felt he could not return home to face his father. So he opted to go to Miami beach because he was 'tired of the cold' and also he wanted to try to live on his own. In Florida, he found employment at a Deli and rented a room in a nearby motel. He spent most of his salary on alcohol - surprise - and was soon evicted for not paying his rent. He initially spent evenings on the beach while he kept working at the Deli. But in September of that year, uh, he called his father and asked to return home. He lived with his father and stepmother for a bit and insisted on being delegated numerous chores to occupy his time while he looked for work. He continued to drink a lot though. And two weeks after getting home was arrested for drunk and disorderly conduct. He was fined $60 and given a suspended at 10 day jail sentence. He was then sent to live with his grandmother here in Wisconsin. She was really the only family member that he had a really good emotional connection with and Lionel hoped that her influence and the change of scenery might help Jeffrey, you know, get his shit together. Initially things were great. He would go with his grandmother to church. He did as many chores as he could. He tried to find work. He um, followed most of her rules with the exception of he still drank and still smoked. This new influence of his grandmother really helped a lot for a bit. In early 1982 he started work as a phlebotomist - hat's the person that draws your blood - at the Milwaukee Blood Plasma Center and held this job for 10 months before being laid off. He then was unemployed for over two years, um, living really only on the money his grandmother gave him. Shortly before losing that job, he was arrested for indecent exposure on August 7th, 1982 at the Wisconsin State Fair Park - and by the way, this is about the same time of year the state fair is going on, so that's my guess is he was at the state fair - he was observed to expose himself to a crowd of 25 women and children. He was convicted and fined $50 plus court costs. In January, 1985 he was hired on as a mixer at the Milwaukee Ambrosia chocolate factory and he worked the night shift - 11:00 PM to 7:00 AM six nights a week with Saturday evenings off. Shortly after working there an incident occurred in which he was propositioned by another man while sitting and reading in the West Allis public library. Um, West Allis is a part of basically Milwaukee, but it's, it's, it used to be its own city, um, it's basically Milwaukee though. The stranger threw Dahmer a note offering to perform fellatio upon him. Dahmer didn't respond, but of course it got his creative juices flowing, so to speak. He began familiarizing himself with the gay bars in the area, queer bookstores, the bathouses. He even stole a mannequin from a store to like sex it - do the sex to it. Um, his grandmother found it and demanded it be tossed out though. By 1985, he was frequenting bathhouses. He became very frustrated though when his partners would move during sex. So he starts drugging men and raping them as they lay unconscious. Beginning in June, 1986, he administered sleeping pills to his partners, giving them liquor laced with the sedatives. He was never charged and to be frank, this is likely related to the distrust of police from the queer community and um, the police not giving a fuck about the queer community. Following his later or arrest, he would state "I trained myself to view people have an as objects of pleasure instead of people." After approximately 12 such instances, the bathhouses' administration revoked Dahmer's membership and he moved to using hotel rooms to continue this practice. Shortly after that, he read a report in the newspaper regarding the upcoming funeral of an 18 year old male. He conceived the idea stealing the freshly entered corpse and taking it home. He even got so far as to try to dig the coffin from the ground, but found the soil too hard and abandoned the plan. He was arrested again in 1986 when two boys accused him of masturbating in front of them near the Kinnickinnic River. Dahmer initially admitted the offense and was again charged with indecent exposure, but quickly changed his story and just said he was peeing - just taking a piss and didn't know people were there. The charge was changed to disorderly conduct and on March 10th, 1987 he was sentenced to one years' probation with additional instructions to undergo counseling. On November 20th, 1987 Dahmer, again still living with his grandmother, encountered a 25 year old man from Ontonagon, Michigan named Steven Tuomi at a bar. He persuades Steven to return to the Ambassador Hotel where Dahmer had rented a room for the evening. According to Dahmer, he had no intention of murdering Tuomi but simply intended to drug and rape him as he lay unconscious - simply. The following morning, however, he awoke to find Tuomi lying beneath him on the bed. His chest crushed in and black and blue with bruises. Blood was also seeping from the corner of his mouth, and Dahmer's fists and one forearm were extensively bruised. To dispose of Tuomi's body, he purchased a large suitcase in which he transported the body to his grandmother's residence. There, one week later, he severred the head, arms and legs from the torso and filleted the bones from the body before cutting the flesh pieces small enough to handle. He then placed the flesh inside plastic garbage bags. He wrapped the bones inside a sheet and pounded them into splinters with a sledge hammer. The entire process took Dahmer approximately two hours to complete, which is honestly really fast. He disposed of all of Tuomi's remains in the trash, excluding the severed head. Um, for two weeks following the murder, he kept the head wrapped in a blanket. Uh, after that time he boiled the head and a mixture of Soilex, which is an alkaline based industrial detergent and bleach and an effort to retain the skull and then use it for jerking. Eventually, um, the skull became too brittle and he had to pulverize and dispose of it. Two months after murdering, Steven Tuomi, Dahmer encounters a 14 year old Native American sex worker named James Doxtator. Jeffrey lures, James to his home with an offer of $50 to pose for nude pictures. The pair did the sex and then Dahmer drugs James and strangles him on the floor of the celar. He leaves the body there for one week before dismembering it in much the same manner as he had with Tuomi, like literally down to keeping the head until it got too brittle. On March 24th, 1988 Dahmer meets a 22 year old bisexual dude named Richard Guerrero outside of a gay bar called the Phoenix. Dahmer lures Guerrero to his grandmother's house. Although the incentive was $50 to simply spend the night with him, he then drugs Guerrero with sleeping pills and strangles him with a leather strap. Dahmer then sucks the dead guy's Dick. What? He dismembers the body within 24 hours of the murder and again, keeps the skull for a bit. On April 23rd Dahmer lures another young man to his house. However, after giving the victim a drug coffee, both he and the victim hear Dahmer's grandmother call out "Is that you, Jeff?" Dahmer replied in a manner that led his grandmother to believe he was alone, but she knew he wasn't. So he didn't kill this guy. Instead, he waited until he became unconscious and then took the victim to the hospital. In September, 1988 his grandmother asks him to move out of her house because of his habit of bringing young men to her house late at night and the foul smells emanating from both the basement and the garage. So Dahmer goes on his own and finds a one bedroom apartment moves in on September 25th. The following day, he was arrested for drugging and sexually fondling a 13 year old boy. He pleads guilty claiming the boy had appeared much older. In 1989, he's convicted of second degree sexual assault and of enticing a child for immoral purposes because he had tried to lure this child to his house to pose nude. Sentencing for this assault was suspended - so he's convicted in January and the sentencing is suspended until May. On March 20th, he um, takes a 10 day Easter absence from work and moved back to his grandmother's house. He then uses that basement to do what he loves to do. Um, he lures, drugs, strangles, sodomizes, photographs, and then dismembers and disposes of Anthony's, Sears, an aspiring model. They met at a gay bar on March 25th. According to Dahmer, on this particular occasion, he was not looking to commit a crime. However, shortly before closing time, Sears just starts talking to Dahmer, so he lures him to the grandmother's home where they engage in oral sex before Dahmer drugs and strangles Sears. And the next morning, Dahmer places the corpse in his grandmother's bathtub where he decapitates the body before attempting to flay the corpse. He then strips the flesh, pulverizes the bones and tosses them in the trash. He found Sears "exceptionally attractive" and he was the first victim from whom Dahmer permanently retains body parts. He actually preserves Sears' head and genitals in acetone and stores them in his work locker. When he moves later on, he takes those with him because they are important obviously. At his trial for the molestation in May, um, he was said to be the model of contrition arguing eloquently in his own defense, but how he had seen the error of his ways and that his rest marked a turning point in his life. Like many other serial killers - y'all go watch the Ted Bundy tapes - these guys know how to play. They know how to play with you. His defense argued that he needed treatment and not incarceration, which the judge agreed to handing down a one year prison sentence on day release. This allowed Dahmer to work at his job during the day and returned to the prison at night after that one year. Um, he was also given five years probation. Years later in an interview with CNN, his father stated he had written a letter to the court requesting psychological help before, um, Jeffrey gets paroled. However, Jeffery is granted an early release after serving only 10 months of his sentence. He briefly lives with his grandmother following his release during which time we, he doesn't seem to have killed anyone. Um, and then he moves back into his own apartment. And that's that for this half of the episode. Tune in next time to hear the chiling conclusion!. I feel like I need to do like those really cheesy Batman, like 'will they make it?' kind of segues but it's fine. Um, so when we will rejoin Jeffrey Dahmer will be in May of 1990 um, when he moves to his infamous apartment on North 25th street. Thanks for listening to this very condensed early part of Jeffrey Dahmer's life and make sure you turn in in two weeks for, um, there the rest of the story. And to hear more about Dahmer's victims as well. You just listened to the Spooky Sconnie podcast. It is produced every two weeks by me, Kirsten Schultz. The intro, outro music is from Purple Plant. You can find show notes and more over at spookysconnie.podbean.com, including a transcript in case you missed anything. Take a minute and rate and subscribe if you can. You'll help more people see the show by rating and you won't miss a single episode if you subscribe, and that's pretty dope. You can support the show over at patreon.com/spookysconniepodcast and you can email me anything you'd like me to know at spookysconniepodcast@gmail.com. Meantime, sleep tight. Don't let the badgers bite. Bye.  

Content note: discussion of ableism/sanism at the end, mentions of sexual violence and murder throughout (no details), general dudely creepitude Photo of creepy letter courtesy of Radar Online (link below) In this minisode, I discuss the updates on the Closs case that have happened in the last month. Dude sent a creepy ass letter this week, too, and now I feel like I need to shower. Further Reading & Sources 'No guilt, no remorse, no empathy.' Criminal profilers say Jake Patterson case stands out ‘Jayme is doing well:’ Family, friends of Jayme Closs mark a milestone by wearing blue Jayme Closs case: Investigators examine call logs, photos, videos stored on Jake Patterson’s cellphone Father of Jayme Closs' alleged abductor speaks out: 'Our hearts are broken for their family' (autoplay video in link) Suspect ordered to stand trial on charges of kidnapping, murder in Jayme Closs case Suspect Jake Thomas Patterson hosted a Christmas gathering while Jayme Closs was imprisoned in the same house, sources say Jennie-O to donate $25,000 in reward money to Jayme Closs Kidnapping victim Jayme Closs thanks well-wishers for support Online fundraisers have raised more than $100K for Jayme Closs since her escape Radar Online exclusive about the creepy letter (heads up for sensationalism) Plain text of the creepy letter Transcript Welcome to the second minisode in the Jayme Closs case coverage. Please go back and listen to the first one if you are not familiar with the case because it gives a lot of background and everything that has happened up until the end of January, 2019. As of February 6th, Patterson was arraigned. He waived his right to a preliminary hearing and his next arraignment date is set for March 27th that is when he is expected to formally enter a plea. He has of course already confessed to the crimes, but we'll see if that sticks. ----more---- As he was leaving the courtroom, he smiled and nodded towards relatives telling them he loved them. Investigators are working right now on searching his vehicle for clues as well as examining his cell phone records, who we called, who he texted, which towers his phone pinged off of, et cetera. My guess is they're double checking that there aren't any people involved in this case in any way other than Patterson. Uh, it's, it's very clear that Patterson was obviously the main driver behind this crime. But when you have someone who is so adamant that they did this on their own, it's always a case where you have to double check everything before you just make an assumption that they're telling the truth. Investigators, profilers and researchers who have interviewed or studied killers that have multiple victims believe Patterson's case is unusual. He told the detectives that he carefully plotted these crimes, but he was impulsive and a lot of the actions he took in decisions he made. He had no relationship with the Closs family, but it wasn't completely random since he targeted her after seeing her get on a school bus. He spares Jayme and drives her away from the murder scene after murdering her parents. And that's usually not something that happens. And you wind up having the victim alive at the end of the case. I think that most people assumed she was probably dead. Um, and I think it may potentially come out that she has, dealt with some sexual violence. I would be nearly willing to bet a large sum of money I don't have on that. Greg McCrary, a former agent with the FBI, worked a lot with the National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime and was one of the early criminal profilers - he says that Patterson's case, like his situation is outside of the norm. "He’s impulsive on one side but he is more ritualistic. When guys do this sort of thing, anybody who gets between them and their target is in peril,” he said. “That’s his desire, and he is willing to kill. This is someone with no guilt, no remorse, no empathy. He killed these people with the empathy of lighting a cigarette.” "(Multiple killers) are not that common, but this guy is even more uncommon, McCrary says, with his willingness to callously and unremorsefully (commit murder and kidnapping.) It’s pretty striking, going in with a shotgun and blasting away. He talks about being criminally sophisticated and his efforts at not being detected. He likes to brag about it, which is extremely pathological,” McCrary continued. “He thinks he’s smarter than anybody else. He was just getting off on this. He had this secret, which reinforces his feelings. He has a captive in the house and appears to lead a normal life. It’s the narcissism that often is their vulnerability, such as the confidence to go out and leave (Jayme) alone. He got overconfident in his ability to maintain this.” S,o part of how he did this was by following groups dedicated to true crime that we're talking about the case, uh, which is creepy. He loved watching TV coverage of the case and he also spent a lot of time googling terms, terms they found on his computer so far were things like “Jayme Closs, “Jayme Closs Suspect”, “Barron County”, “Jayme Gordon” [Gordon is where she was found], “Jayme Closs Gordon” and “Gordon”, “FBI” and “Kyle Jaenke-Annis”, which go listen to the first episode to hear why he's involved. Kim Rossmo is the director of the center for Geospatial Intelligence and investigation and the Department of Criminal Justice at Texas State University. He's also the former detective inspector in charge of the Vancouver Police Department's Geographic Profiling Section. The Post Crescent interviewed him about the case and he said, "I think one of the unusual aspects was the fact that he didn’t kill his victim within 24 hours. That’s pretty standard. Given his planning, it was unusual to go into the home (without knowing who was there). Maybe he couldn’t wait.” And I think that speaks to a lot of what we've heard so far. He went to the house several other times, but there were people home and he didn't want to go into a house necessarily full of many people and instead chose, you know, 1:00 AM midnight, when he knew no one else was there other than the family. Patterson's family is just as shocked as anyone that this happened. His father, Patrick, recently shared his thoughts: "My words can mean nothing after such a tragedy has taken place. I most definitely want Jayme's family to know, everyone to know, that our hearts are broken for their family. I'm very sorry for everything that has happened. These words come directly from my heart and my family's heart. I wish for a complete healing of Jayme's mind, heart and soul. I would like to thank the federal, local and state authorities for their professional and respectful way in which they have treated me and my family. I would also like to thank the media for the way in which they've been patient and understanding with this difficult matter. It has been a very difficult time for us." Earlier this week, Patterson reportedly sent a letter that Radar Online got ahold of the, like, scanned copy. I'll put a link to the show notes for that. It is difficult to read just from a logistical aspect. I Dunno. Scanned copies of letters with shitty handwriting are just difficult to read. In the letter, he really seems to think that he and Jayme just had our regular domestic relationship, which I think is an interesting counter to, on the outside, his very, his nature of being very braggadocious bragging a lot about the situation, about how smart he was. Um, this, this is just a quick sampling of two different parts of the letter. “My brother… got a puppy named ‘Vale’ a couple of weeks before [heart] Jayme [heart] ran away. I love Mexican food too, but I like lots of stuff. Chocolate and berries are probably my favorite. Me and Jayme cooked a bunch of stuff. Cooking is another thing I like doing a lot. It’s weird. I went from never committing a crime or really doing anything bad to doing the worst thing a human can do. Just one big f–k up ha ha.”. Oh, this was in a letter to a friend that got leaked. In the meantime, Jayme has been doing well. Um, I think as well as possible considering everything that has gone on. When it's warm enough - because we have had several cold spells - she has been playing outside, spending time with family and working on healing WCC0-AM reported that she also had a steak dinner on the third with her grandfather, which was the promise he had made to her while she was missing. That makes me wonder too with how obsessed Patterson was with watching footage and learning more about what the public knew about the crime, how much Jayme had heard. Had she known that her grandfather promised this steak while she was missing, or did she only learn about it when she escaped and you know, but probably it a day or two after was able to get in contact with more relatives? I have no idea. Jayme's parents worked at the Jennie O plant that's local. The company had donated $25,000 towards Jayme's reward, a match of the FBI's $25,000. Since Jayme escaped herself, Jennie-O is donating their portion of the money directly to her. The FBI hasn't said what they're doing with their portion but I highly doubt it will go to Jayme and I don't know that it should. Um, there are a lot of kids out there that are missing a lot of adults out there that are missing and potentially in danger and that money I think would be better served towards trying to help other kids. Jayme is currently living with an aunt and in a statement she and the Closs family expressed their deepest gratitude for the incredible gifts and generous donations that she's received from all around the world. "Jayme... appreciates each and every gift, as well as the many cards and letters. The many kind words have been a source of great comfort to her," the statement said. A Facebook fundraiser raised $51,000 for Jayme within days of her escape in January and a separate go fund me for Jayme and the family started by her cousin Angela De Andriano has raised an additional, uh, about $51,000 as of this past Wednesday. In an interview with Wpr, De Andriano said she's increased the Gofund me goals twice already at the request of donors. "Each time I get close to a goal I have just like an overload of messages coming in, 'This isn’t going to close is it? We would like to help.' And I’m like, 'OK, nope it doesn’t just close. You can go ahead and go on there and I’ll just keep adjusting it.'" She also said donations have been steady ever since news of Jayme's escape broke, but that there have been upticks whenever Jayme's story gets renewed attention in social media or news reports. "There’s a lot of people out there that want to help and that are really concerned and following along as these hearings begin, and I think that Jayme has a lot of support from all over the world," De Andriano said. She said another fundraiser established by the class family at sterling bank in Barron has been accepting donations in person and by mail ever since the crime happened. The branch manager has declined to say how much money has been donated, and I think that's probably a good thing. Lastly, an FBI special agent, Justin Tolomeo and a team of 250 FBI agents and personnel worked nearly around the clock to try to work to bring Jayme home. He said, "I'm still amazed by the bravery and resilience she displayed," he said. "We did everything we possibly could and I again, I said it, Jayme herself that gave us that break." Like I said, probably the next big step in the case is the March 27th arraignment date set for Patterson and we'll see what happens. I fully expect that since he confessed, he will consider pleading guilty. But I can also see his lawyers or he himself thinking they would be smug and trying to claim insanity. I do not think that that fits here. I do not think that it's okay to say that he is insane when he clearly knew what he was doing was wrong, didn't give a fuck, et cetera. I think there's a whole discussion about sainism and ableism that we could get into about how the general true crime community and people beyond view insanity and view a person's ability to do things though, um, with that label. I think so often we want to push off something that's evil as insane. And unfortunately when we do that, we're really shitting on everybody who actually has a mental illness and you know, is struggling versus the Ted Bundys and Jake Patterson's of the world. Um, I think it's important to remember that evil and, and sanity are not necessarily connected. Someone can be perfectly sane and be an incredibly evil asshole and that's really hard to stomach. And so I think that's something that we have to work on. People don't want to think that an average other person just like them could turn around and do something horrible without having some sort of a, a reason or without having lost their minds. And the reality is people do evil shit every single day. There are people who, everything they do is rooted in hatred and bigotry and harm. And if they're lucky, uh, they don't get caught or don't get punished for it for a long time. That usually just means that their actions tend to grow exponentially. We see it with serial killers, right? Some of the first steps they usually take are abusing animals and then they're not caught or they're not punished, and then they step up and step up and step up. We see that with, um, all sorts of other criminals to someone who works at a store and steals a pair of sunglasses and then, you know, ramp up to where they're stealing five Playstations to sell and then ramp up to where they're robbing banks. I mean, it's a very clear, it's very clear to me anyway, that there are steps that get us to a point where we're causing even more harm. And nowhere along that path is there a clear point where someone loses their sanity. Someone could go down that path perfectly sane the entire time and perfectly aware of everything they're doing. We see those even in politicians, right? People constantly say that 'Trump is mental. Trump is losing his mind. Or Trump never had a mind. He's got dementia.' What if he doesn't have anything and he's just an evil fucking asshole? That's probably more terrifying to people than blaming evil actions on a disability. Did you know even psychological associations will not allow people to armchair diagnose someone with a mental illness unless they've actually had, you know, evaluation time, which then it's not armchair diagnosing. So why is everybody else arm chair diagnosing people if even psychologists can't? What makes the average, uh, true crime afficianado the person who can tell who is or isn't sane? Something to think about. That's my little social justice diatribe for this episode and stay tuned for more updates. This probably won't get a big update until again, the arraignment date or, um, unless some big news happens between here and the end of March. Thanks for listening. Have a great day! You just listened to the Spooky Sconnie podcast. It is produced every two weeks by me, Kirsten Schultz. The intro, outro music is from Purple Plant. You can find show notes and more over at spookysconnie.podbean.com, including a transcript in case you missed anything. Take a minute and rate and subscribe if you can. You'll help more people see the show by rating and you won't miss a single episode if you subscribe, and that's pretty dope. You can support the show over at patreon.com/spookysconniepodcast and you can email me anything you'd like me to know at spookysconniepodcast@gmail.com. Meantime, sleep tight. Don't let the badgers bite. Bye.  

Content note: discussion murder throughout, mentions of racism Featured photo: An early photograph of Taliesin, taken during its first winter, 1911–12 by Henry Fuermann and Sons | Wisconsin Historical Society http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/whi/fullimage.asp?id=83133| Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=28958581It's time to talk about one of the most outrageous figures in Wisconsin history and the murder spree at his Spring Green home that changed his life. That's right - it's Taliesin murder time, baby! Further Reading The History Channel's Version (sadly, without aliens) Taliesin Preservation Society Frank's wiki and Tan-y-Deri's wiki Books from our Amazon book list Death in a Prairie House: Frank Lloyd Wright and the Taliesin Murders by William R. R. Drennan  Building Taliesin: Frank Lloyd Wright’s Home of Love and Loss by Ron McCrea Transcript Welcome to a new episode of the Spooky Sconnie podcast, the podcast that talks about the paranormal, the criminal, and the just plain weird about the state of Wisconsin. Um, if you are already following the podcast, you may have noticed that I skipped our last episode, which means it's been about a month since I put out an episode. The week I was going to record this episode was just really, really hectic and lots of stuff happened. And then I got laryngitis and literally like sounded like a kid going through puberty and really just couldn't, um, couldn't record. I didn't want to put anyone through that. So now my voice's 90% better and uh, it's time for a new episode. ----more---- Before I get into today's topic, um, I just did want to mention that I do have an event coming up in July. It's, - look, it's really cold and very snowy here, so I'm just thinking happy thoughts. July in Chicago is the happy thought for me right now. Um, there is a podcast festival, the true crime podcast festival, happening on July 13th. And, um, you can learn more about it if you go to their site, which is t c p f like true crime podcast festival tcpf2019.com. I am officially a registered podcast for that festival. I'm very excited to be going there. I have not quite entirely sure what that all entails. All I know is that I get to be recognized at the festival with 'designated podcaster gear.' So I dunno if that means like a table or booth or something. I Dunno. Um, I will let you know if slash when I find out, but that will again be happening in Chicago on July 13th. It's just a one day thing. Um, and you know, if you're going, let me know. Let's hang out. Uh, I may be getting some gear, like some cool, uh, bottle openers and magnets and buttons and Shit and give that away while I'm there. If you find me, we'll have to work something fun out. Um, and I'm really excited about that. I'm really excited about that. I love Chicago. It's one of my favorite places. And honestly, if I had the money, I would just move to there. I want to move to there. Um, I'll be honest, like a large part of why wouldn't mind living there is I love the subway. I, I don't know. I don't know what's wrong with me. Um, I love like a lot of local businesses to Chicago. Like Do Rite Donuts. They make bomb gluten free donuts and like, it's like heaven. It's like heaven. I actually really even like driving in downtown Chicago. There are things wrong with me that I cannot explain, but that's not why you're here. You're here to talk about the Taliesin murders. Oh yeah. Frank Lloyd Wright had some shit go on in his life. Let me tell you. So Frank Lloyd Wright was born Frank Lincoln Wright in 1867 in a town called Richland Center. And that's about 90 minutes west and very slightly north of Madison. His family was a family of Welsh descent, so a lot of things that he did, he would put in nods to, um, his heritage and his family's background because he felt that it was very important. After spending a few childhood years in Massachusetts, Wright's family moved back to Madison where he grew up. Um, he changed his middle name to Lloyd after his parents split in 1885 and it was a nod to his mother's family, the Lloyd-Joneses. I think he was really upset with his father after that split. He actually never saw his father again and it was just a really nice nod I think to the supportive nature of his mother's family and, and honoring her, too, in carrying that name with him. In 1886, he attended the University of Wisconsin here in Madison and he took some classes part time for a couple of semesters, but then left without getting a degree. He was later granted an honorary one from the university in 1955. In 1887, he moved to Chicago and started to work as an architect. The architecture movement in Chicago was really big at the time, especially because, you know, even over a decade later there, they're really still working on rebuilding from the fire in 1871. So there was a lot of space for growth. There was a lot of need for housing and for really cool buildings, which, oh God, Chicago, I love you, Chicago. Why do I love you so much? I don't know. But, so he, he really thrived in Chicago, learned from a lot of other great architects and really built his life there. Um, of course he built houses and buildings all around the world, but that was really, you know, his base of operations for a really long time. Now there's a lot that we could say again about his work in Chicago, about his work around the world, about his influence on, you know, modern architecture movements. Like, this is not that kind of a podcast. And as fancy as that stuff is, um, it's just, it's a lot to go through. Um, like researching this episode, I feel like the A&E show Biography would have to do a couple of hours to really even talk about all of Frank Lloyd Wright's life and do it justice. So, uh, you know, in the interest of time and not wanting to drone on and on, we're not going there. But we are talking about Taliesin. He built Taliesin near his childhood home in 1911 and he named it after, um, this character in Welsh mythology who was a poet, magician and priest. And there's, um, a family motto that was taken from another Welsh poet who had a son named Taliesin. The motto, which I'm going to butcher cause I don't know any Welsh um, maybe I won't even try. It translates to 'the truth against the world' and it's really still used a lot today in Wales, um, in, in like Druidism and I think it's just a beautiful saying cause I'm a nerd. Taliesin is set on 800 acres and the estate itself comprises a number of structures. So from now on, when I talk about Taliesin I will be talking about the main house now. The main house is approximately 12,000 square feet. Holy Shit. And it's designed in Wright's prairie style. So the prairie style is basically a style of building that emulates the prairies. Um, it's kind of a low building. It's very boxy. There's a lot of horizontal planes. The roofs are flat, um, and it just feels like it might fit in really well in the prairies. It also included a separate studio for Frank to do his work that was right there. Uh, the estate also included the hillside home school which was run by his aunts, the Romeo and Juliet windmil, which he built in 1896, a farming facility named the Midway Barn, and then, um, a house that he built for his sister. He designed that in 1907, and it's named Tan-y-Deri. And that building we're actually going to talk about later too, but really the main, the main players architecturally are Taliesin - the main house - and Tan-y-Deri. So he built the home for himself, but also for the woman he had left his wife and six children with, uh, for Martha Borthwick whose nickname was Mommah. He meets her in Chicago. He had been commissioned by this businessman and a neighbor, Edwin Cheney, to design a house in 1903 and he meets Mrs. Cheney AKA Mommah. And she was a person that Frank could have very intellectual conversations with and she stayed with him. You know, they could have these grandiose conversations about architecture, about philosophy, and really jelled well together intellectually and finding someone who was his intellectual equals really attractive to him. The pair runs off to Europe together, uh, to Italy. And Edwin is like, 'you know, if this is what makes you happy, Mommah, I will grant you a divorce. That is okay.' Catherine, uh, Frank's wife, decides she's not going to do that. Frank had had a history of cheating on her and she was pretty sure that this was going to blow over, that this was just another in a long line of flings and you know, everything be damned if she's going to give up everything that she's seen Frank through and, and give up his support for, for just another Hoochie Mama. Oh my God. Mommah - Hoochie Mommah. Oh, I didn't even mean that. Um, the pair comes back from Europe then and Wright uses his mother's name. You know, he says, 'I want to build my mom a house' to buy the land that Taliesin is built on. This helps avoid a lot of publicity in the early stages of building the house. To the outside world, he puts on a face like he is reconciling with Catherine even though the truth is, is much different than that. Press later would dub Taliesin 'the love cottage.' Locals did not want them in the neighborhood. They were very upset. The couple was criticized by church ministers and even the superintendent of the community schools. Um, all of these things really have no effect on Frank. He's, he doesn't give a shit. Honestly. He's like, 'you know, y'all can do your thing. It's fine, but I'm going to do my thing.' The townspeople in Spring Green, which is where Taliesin is really located, um, you know, they call the sheriff, they're like, 'Hey, he's living in sin.' He's a horrible example to the community and they want him to arrest Frank. But that isn't something he could do. That's not the function of the sheriff. Um, so really they, they started living their life very well. Um, Mommah's two kids from her marriage to Edwin would come visit and um, so would Frank's six kids. The kids weren't there all the time, but it was something that, that it had enough space there that they could convince it and their lives were, were really nice for, for a while there... Until August 15th of 1914 when shit hit the fan. So, Frank is in Chicago - he's working on building Midway Gardens. Um, some articles talk about that his son John was with him. Others don't mention the son at all. Um, so who knows? But uh, you know, regardless, Frank is in Chicago working on the Gardens and essentially all hell breaks loose. One of the servants unleashes an attack the winds up claiming several lives leaving Taliesin the main house in rubble and completely devastating Frank. The, the attacker is 30 year old Julian Carlton and he works on the estate. He's originally from Barbados and at lunchtime, Martha and two of her children from, from the Cheney marriage. 8 year old Martha and 12 year old John are visiting and they're, they're sitting down to eat on the porch. In the main dining room about 30, 25, 30 feet away the laborers and draftsmen are around a table and they're about to be served lunch by Julian. Now, a little bit more about Julian. He's both a handyman and a servant. He spent the summer waiting tables and performing housework at Taliesin, but his wife, Gertrude, did most of the cooking. After serving soup to Martha and the children, Martha and Martha and John, um, Carlton tells his wife to leave the house and he returns to the porch and he's got a hatchet. He attacks Martha and the children. Um, so they're eating and Julian sneaks up behind Mommah/Martha. Um, she's, she's at the table and he buries a hatchet in her skull. He then attacks the children and he quickly kills Mommah and then John... But Martha runs and he has to really catch up with her and then, you know, wacks her in the head four times very powerfully. The blows weren't fatal even though they were very powerful. They absolutely were incapacitating. She was unable to do anything and in the fire that's to come, she winds up being essentially burned alive. After attacking the three of them, Carlton goes to serve lunch to the men in the sitting room and they're eating, um, and talking and enjoying company. And the 19 year old draftsman, Herbert Fritz notices something unusual. Uh, he says, “We heard a swish as though water was thrown through the screen door. Then we saw some fluid coming under the door. It looked like dishwater. It spread out all over the floor.” By the time they realized it was gasoline, Carlton had already struck and dropped a match into the puddle and started the fire. He bolted the door from the outside, preventing them from escaping. As they are burning and on fire, the men try to jump out of the windows and Carlton is actually waiting there with his ax to attack the people coming out. So the, the other victims, um, were: Ernest Weston - 13 - the son of carpenter William Weston, Milwaukee draughtsman Emil Brodelle - 26, and Taliesin foreman Thomas Brunker - 68. David Lindblom, who is 38 who escapes but later dies from his burns.. So William Weston, the carpenter, and Herbert Fritz survive the attack and together walk half a mile to the nearest telephone to raise the alarm. With help on the way, Weston returns to Taliesin to try to put out the fire, but at that point there was really no way for him to do it on his own. By the time help arrives, the main house is destroyed. All of this work that they've all put in and this beautiful home is gone. Miraculously, Frank's studio is intact. They discover Carlton hiding in or around the furnace. He, um, realized that it was impossible for him to escape and tried to drink hydrochloric acid in a suicide attempt, but, um, it didn't work, which... As awful as all of the things that he just did were, hydrochloric acid like drinking that is a terrible way to go. Um, and it just makes me wonder if at that time he was feeling any remorse or guilt about what he did or if it was just, 'Oh, this is the closest thing to me.' Cause most people, I think when you are feeling guilty or remorseful or sad about something you've done, um, if you are going to plan a suicide or some other form of self harm, you really want it to hurt. You want to suffer a bit. Um, kind of, uh, in exchange for the harm that you've done. But, again, didn't work. The sheriff, um, and kind of a posse that he's thrown together arrive, get Carlton, and get him to the Dodgeville jail. And they are pursued by three car loads of men with guns, so this was not an easy thing. Um, people wanted to kill him right away, wanting to, to lynch him. And um, the sheriff is very lucky that he was able to get Carlton to the jail. Carlton actually dies from starvation within the next couple months - seven weeks - and all of that in spite medical attention. Um, they really wanted him to live, to be able to, you know, face justice and that didn't happen. He did make two court appearances and kind of the preliminary, you know, set up but never stood trial and really never explained his motive for the attack. There are a number of various theories. Um, his wife, Gertrude, said that he had become increasingly paranoid in the weeks prior to the attack and was even going so far as to keep the hatchet in a bag next to the bed. There were rumors that he was being harassed by some of the workers. Um, there had been an argument a few days before over like a saddle on a horse? I'm not sure what that entailed, but there are also rumors that the workers were incredibly racist towards him and xenaphobic. So that could have been an issue, too. He, according to one report, had a tendency to stay up at night and stare out the window holding a butcher's knife. I'll be honest, I think that one is myth. I don't feel like that is realistic, but it's a thing. One of those surviving workers told police that Mommah had told the Carltons they were going to be let go and the killer's wife did confirm they were supposed to take a train back to Chicago later that night. So, to me, that seems like the strongest theory. There is - this is ridiculous - there is a theory that Frank somehow hired, uh, Carlton to murder Mommah to rid himself of an unwanted lover. And others, you know, said, 'well, it's just, it's just God's way of handling it. Like, they shouldn't have been together anyway. They were living in sin. Now it's taken care of.' Which is just really ridiculous. Um, but like I said, I think the, the strongest theory is the one about them being let go. And if you don't have another job to go to, what are you supposed to do? And someone who might have already been on edge getting that news? I mean, people act drastically for far fewer reasons than that. Upon witnessing what her husband had done, Gertrude leaves, she flees and winds up being apprehended by police later. She's ultimately acquitted of being an accomplice and, um, disappears, which is honestly good for her. Frank comes home that night and he actually brings Edwin Cheney with him. Like I said earlier, they had been neighbors, they were friends and I think there really wasn't that much animosity between them. Everything that I've read seems to suggest that the two of them and Mommah all got along fine. And, and that, there wasn't any difficulty there - at least publicly, there wasn't any difficulty between the three of them. So it doesn't really surprise me that that Frank comes home from Chicago and brings Cheney with him. Frank describes the scene as a devastating scene of horror and said that he wanted to fill the grave himself when he saw Mommah in her grave. He buries her in the family chapel graveyard in Spring Green and shortly thereafter winds up publishing a letter in the local newspaper to thank the community for their support. Um, but he also takes the time to defend Mommah and to show that, that he's not going to be driven out. I think that he was concerned about some of those reactions to what had happened - the idea that living in sin brought this on, etc., and really wanted to push back against those. He promised to rebuild Taliesin in her memory and he does. By the end of 1914 the residential wing - so, you know, the main house - is rebuilt and it's labeled Taliesin II. Because of what happened, though, and I think the, the emotional terror that caused for him, he doesn't live at the property again until 1922 so a lot of time has passed. By the end of 1914, though, he falls in love with another woman, Maude "Miriam" Noel. And she had actually written him a condolence letter over what had happened. Um, and you know, the, their relationship started from there, which I think is really sweet actually. It's really sweet. So, the two married in 1923. Um, Catherine had finally agreed to a divorce in 19 -Oh, probably about the time he meets Maude or early in 1922. Um, the only stipulation is that he cannot to marry for a year. So that's why they waited in 1924, though very quickly, he leaves Maude. Um, she struggled a lot with substance misuse and really needed a lot of help and wouldn't accept it. He then meets Olga Ivanovna Lazovich Milanoff who was also just called Olgivanna. So they kind of just smushed her first two names together. It works! He meets her shortly thereafter and later he builds Taliesin West in Scottsdale, Arizona for her. They have a daughter Iovanna, um, who's born at Taliesin at the end of 1925 but not before faulty wiring leads to another fire at Taliesin in April. Wright's studio again is miraculously spared. Several collections that he had of Japanese art though, um, were destroyed in that fire. And he estimated that damage to be 250 to $500,000, just of losing that alone, which woooo at that time like, I didn't look about the inflation, but like if things are really cheap and you've lost that much, like the inflation has to be ridiculous. So, he rebuilds a third time and he uses, um, some bits of the rubble from the ruins like he did the first time. He, um, you know, he's still upset. Obviously. This is the second fire this house has been through. Um, and it's gotta be deflating. But, um, Taliesin III is the structure that stands today. He and Olgivanna were married in 1928 although to backup slightly in 1927, he does experience some financial problems and there is a foreclosure on the building by the Bank of Wisconsin. He is able to reaquire the building with the help of friends and then reoccupy it in November, 1928 and that's where he lived for the rest of his life. Um, he did wind up spending the winters at Taliesin West after that was finished being built in 1937. Just to kind of round out Frank's story here - on April 4th, 1959, he is hospitalized for abdominal pains. He goes into an operation on the sixth to alleviate that. He seems to recover but then dies quietly and rather quickly on the ninth. After his death, his wife Olgivanna wanted Wright and herself and then her daughter from her first marriage to all be cremated and interred together at Taliesin West where they were building a memorial garden. But Frank's wishes at least in, in like the most recent will, um, had him lain into the family cemetery, which is next to Unity Chapel in Spring Green. And she didn't take any legal steps against it. Um, she didn't want to necessarily, you know, move his body or upset family members or even the state of Wisconsin. But, in 1985, um, the members of the Taliesin Fellowship do remove Frank from his grave, cremate him, and then sent him to Scottsdale to be interred at that memorial garden. So his original grave site here in Wisconsin is still there, still marked. He's just not in it. All of the stuff that happened during the murders, yeah, it's very, very traumatic. Um, a fire alone is traumatic, but to have these murders, to have a loved one murdered, um, to have children murdered on your property, it's not great - not something you should probably aim for. So Tan-y-Deri - the house built for Frank's sister - is said to be haunted. It is where people were brought during the fire - people who had not yet succumbed to their injuries or people who were simply just injured were brought to that house to be looked after, to have, you know, minimal first aid done before responders showed up. And as a result, a lot of people, you know, passed there, um, or at least their bodies were there after they had passed. The main spirit who is seen here is Mommah herself. She's usually dressed in a long white gown and, although she is peaceful, she seems restless and lost. Doors and windows will open and close by themselves. Lights will turn on and off. Uh, doors will slam and there's other phenomena, but they're often accompanied by smells of smoke and gasoline as well as the voices of children. One theory is that Mommah is stuck there because she can't seem to find where her kids went. Um, that's a pretty common theory in most like, 'oh, mom died and the kids died' kind of situations. Yeah, I dunno. I think one of the things could also be just that she loved it there. She loved it on that property and maybe Tan-y-Deri was, the piece, she still recognized the most, you know. Taliesin has been rebuilt twice now and so maybe it doesn't look like it did when she lived there and maybe she doesn't want to, to haunt that building that much anyway because of the trauma that happened there. Uh, so maybe it's just a matter of 'This is where I know I would have been safe. This is where people I trusted lived.' Um, I dunno, I mean it's an interesting question as to why someone haunts a specific location. Today, Taliesin stands as a testament to Frank Lloyd Wright, um, to his work, to his perseverance. It's essentially set up as a museum to Frank Lloyd Wright, um, to preserve and share his work. You can go on a couple of different tours of the 800 Acre property. There are programs you can, enjoy from performing arts to other cultural events, culinary events, summer youth workshops. Also on the grounds is the School of Architecture at Taliesin that was formally created in 1932 when about two dozen apprentices came to live and learn from fFank at Taliesin. And some newer buildings were constructed to accommodate them, including like a dining hall and some other things, um, near that hillside school that his aunt's formerly had run. I haven't been able to go on the tours yet, but I think it's, um, quite a fantastic thing that Frank set up this preservation society before he died, um, with his wife Olgivanna and they really championed preserving his work and sharing his work with others. And I think it's quite fantastic that he had the foresight to do that because a lot of people don't... but also that he had the means to do that because again, a lot of people don't. A lot of artists aren't necessarily recognized for their talents while they're alive either, which I'm sure doesn't make it any easier. If people don't think you're great and you don't think you're that great, then you probably don't have a lot of money and you know, it just makes it that much more difficult. So those are the murders at Taliesin. I hope you enjoyed listening to them. Um, I will include some links in the show notes for you to learn more as well as kind of the sources that I used and hoping to include some photos. Um, I will at least include a photo of Taliesin back in the heyday before it was ravaged by fires so that you can at least kind of plan out in your mind. I don't know. I'm a nerd so I like to look at that stuff and plan out in my mind like where everything happened and, and have a better understanding of everything from a spatial aspect. Join us again in two weeks - that would be due March 2nd - for a new episode and um, I am also working on a Jayme Closs update episode that I'm hoping to have out next week. So hopefully by the 23rd, um, just to, you know, give an update on some of the things that have gone on in that case. Thanks so much for listening. Um, I know I say it in the outro, but if you could take a second to like review that would be great cause that helps other people find the podcast and the more people listen, the more like maybe I'll feel like I need to do things with this. I need you all to keep the pressure on me. Okay, and also make sure to find the social medias because I have been sharing a lot more on there while I've been recuperating with my laryngitis. Have a great rest of your day and I will talk to you in two weeks! You just listened to the Spooky Sconnie podcast. It is produced every two weeks by me, Kirsten Schultz. The intro, outro music is from Purple Plant. You can find show notes and more over at spookysconnie.podbean.com, including a transcript in case you missed anything. Take a minute and rate and subscribe if you can. You'll help more people see the show by rating and you won't miss a single episode if you subscribe, and that's pretty dope. You can support the show over at patreon.com/spookysconniepodcast and you can email me anything you'd like me to know at spookysconniepodcast@gmail.com. Meantime, sleep tight. Don't let the badgers bite. Bye.

Hodag photo by Gourami Watcher - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=28838534 In this short episode, I discuss the hodag. It's a cryptid that's put Rhinelander, Wisconsin, on the map. Sadly, it's not real, but the city has embraced it in a wild way. Further reading Rhinelander Area Chamber of Commerce page on the Hodag What is the Hodag? Cryptid wiki on the Hodag Hodag: The Legendary, Ugly, Smelly Beast of Wisconsin Transcript Welcome to another episode of the Spooky Sconnie Podcast. This week we'll be talking about a cryptid from northern Wisconsin, known as the Hodag. It is probably one of the most well known Wisconsin cryptids, but it's probably not a real thing, which is kind of sad. To understand the Hodag, we have to understand the man named Eugene shepherd who supposedly discovered this monster. He was born in 1854 in Green Bay and later moved to Rhinelander. Rhinelander is two and a half hours east and slightly north of Green Bay, so it was a fairly large move at the time. He held a ton of jobs, including a few at a logging camp. Um, Rhinelander is a pretty prime area for logging, being kind of up in the north woodsy area. ----more---- Shepherd was a man who loved exploring and he actually named a ton of the lakes up in the area and made maps that we still use today, which is really fascinating. He also claims to have invented Paul Bunyan, but he's also well known jokester and kind of an exaggerator. So who knows? His claim to fame is the Hodag, which is a ferocious mythical beast that's a cross between a wild boar and a hungry alligator. So, supposedly in the early 1890s, Shepherd was walking in the woods just after sunset. You can just see it - picturesque it's beautiful. You just want to like take a walk with someone you love, but then he starts smelling something. There's a foul smell. There's noises in the bushes, and suddenly he comes face to face with this monstrosity with glowing eyes and terrible breath. Apparently what he saw according to the authors of Wisconsin Lore is “The animal’s back resembled that of a dinosaur, and his tail, which extended to an enormous length, had a spear-like end….The legs were short and massive and the claws were thick and curved denoting great strength…From the broad muscular mouth, sharp, glistening white teeth protruded.” Shepherd later gathered a group of locals and they all formed a search party that allegedly killed a Hodag using dynamite, which feels like the most Wisconsin thing. There's actually a photo of the men surrounding a hodag's charred remains in a local newspaper. A couple of years later, Shepherd apparently catches a live Hodag. He takes out on tour with him to various county fairs. Visitors would run screaming from the tent after seeing the animal suddenly move inside its cage. It's interesting how he set it up. It's very similar to how he set it up with the 1896 Oneida County Fair where the Hodag was basically the centerpiece. He would charge a dime for a peek, which, like, you were at the very far end of a dimly lit tent and then suddenly the Hodag would move and you would freak out. After that fair, Shepherd quit his job as a timber cruiser and took up one as real estate broker. He then spent his whole life promoting Rhinelander and the Hodag that made it famous. He died in 1923. Before that, you know, people started hearing about the hodag and the Smithsonian even announced that it wanted to investigate. And that's when Shepherd finally came clean. He admitted was all an elaborate prank that he fabricated the animal from cow hide and cattle horns and animated it with hidden strings. Despite the hoax standing, people in Rhinelander still claim to see the beast. When we take eyewitness accounts, rumors, legend, speculation - basically every source we have - several aspects of the hodag's appearance become clear. So it's supposedly covered in this fine green fur. It's about 30 inches tall and weighs anywhere from 185 to 265 pounds. It's about seven feet long. Supposedly the diet varies - anything from like mud and water snakes to oxen and white bull dogs. Of course, the white bulldogs are supposedly only eat on Sundays. It's reported to have more of the head of a frog, the face of an elephant, stout legs, and a spiky dinosaur-like back with a long tail. Supposedly the smell is something of a mix between buzzard meat and skunk perfume, which does not sound apetizing. You can actually find a larger than life representation of the Hodag outside the Rhinelander Area Chamber of Commerce at 450 West Kemp Street. We also know based on reports that the Hodag is mischievious. He's thought to be responsible for everything from lost golf balls to stealing fish off of anglers' lines. There's even a free game called Hungry Hodag you can download it and chomp your way through Rhinelander like a Hodag if you can't make it there in person. Oh yeah. Rhinelander is Hodag Central and they're proud of it. People actually come to the city specifically because of the Hodag which is amazing. The town continues to recognize the unusual appeal and spares no opportunity to hype this creature. There are banners that flutter from street poles downtown. There are at least six statues. Several billboards of Hodags are along main roads. There's one where he's wearing cowboy boots and a guitar outside of a gas station on southbound highway. 17. One is on a pedestal in front of a real estate agency on business. US eight and a 2D Hodag is across the street on top of Judy's Hodag bar. There's also even a Hodag park and you can get just about anything with a Hodag on it. In fact, the Rhinelander's town site everything has a cute little Hodag - like their lodging thing? It's a Hodag sleeping. Their eating thing? It's a Hodag eating. Like it is bananas in the best way. They even - the Chamber of Commerce has unveiled its own copyrighted and trademarked statue on the front lawn of its building. For a glimpse of a less evolved Hodag, you can go to the Rhinelander Logger Museum - Logging Museum. It sells a selection of souvenirs including postcards from the capture, and keeps 2 prime Hodags on display. One is a life size replica in a glass case from 1951. The other is a smaller, furry Hodag up near the rafters which shows both the promise and limitation of modern monster taxidermy. The Hodag is an interesting thing. There are very few cases where we know something has been falsified, but people still run with it anyway, and I think it's fascinating to have the Hodag be this really cool creature that's unlike anything seen anywhere in the world and, you know, have it represent the city - have it mischievous, like Shepherd was, have it to blame for losing your golf balls in a pond. Um, it's just an interesting snapshot I think of how odd Wisconsin can be. I'm sure there are similar things elsewhere, but I don't know. There's something just so wholesome about the Hodag. I Dunno, I like it. It's cute. Make sure you check out the pictures and the show notes so that you can take a look. Another thing that is interesting to me, nowing that it's falsified too, is looking at the different, uh, I guess kind of the evolutions of it from the very simple renditions that Shepherd created to these adorable, almost animated, very kid-friendly versions that I really want a stuffy [stuffed animal] of. It's interesting to see that change and the growth. Um, and I think it's really fun to have it to blame if you're a bad golfer, but let's blame the Hodag for stealing your golf ball and dragging it into the lake. You know, things like that I think are really cute. Um, so this was a really short episode. I did a good amount of research, but there really wasn't a ton out there that was original. I guess a lot of it was kind of rehashing the same things. It's just kind of a bummer because I was hoping this would be slightly longer, but I think it's a really cute snapshot of Wisconsin and the Hodag is just so adorable. The next episode is going to be about Taliesin, the Frank Lloyd Wright House that he built here in Wisconsin and the horrific murders that occurred there. Isn't that fun? It's a wild story. Um, you're going to want to like pre plan to listen to it. Like buckle your seat belts, buckle your seat belt belts if that's still a hip thing. I don't think it is... Take a seat, get you some wine, like relax. And then listen to it because it is wild and make sure to stay tuned for updates about the Jayme Closs case. I am doing minisodes where I update people about them. The first one came out earlier this week and it's kind of a snapshot of everything that's gone on with the case so far, including um, Jake Thomas Patterson's official charges as of Monday this week. So, um, yeah, make sure you stay tuned and have a great day. You just listened to the Spooky Sconnie podcast. It is produced every two weeks by me, Kirsten Schultz. The intro, outro music is from Purple Plant. You can find show notes and more over at spookysconnie.podbean.com, including a transcript in case you missed anything. Take a minute and rate and subscribe if you can. You'll help more people see the show by rating and you won't miss a single episode if you subscribe, and that's pretty dope. You can support the show over at patreon.com/spookysconniepodcast and you can email me anything you'd like me to know at spookysconniepodcast@gmail.com. Meantime, sleep tight. Don't let the badgers. Bye.  

Content note: discussion of murder and kidnapping, mention of sexual violence (no details), general dudely creepitude Welcome to the Spooky Sconnie podcast, the show that talks about the spooky, paranormal, criminal, and just plain odd Badger State. While we're known for sportsball and food, there's a lot more to learn about Wisconsin if you know where to look. In this first minisode on the subject, I discuss the Jayme Closs case. Three months after her parents double murder and her kidnapping, Jayme was recently found. Details are still coming out about her captivity and, yesterday, her captor - Jake Thomas Patterson - was officially charged. Further reading Link to Wisconsin's current missing children cases Jayme's GoFundMe Jayme's FB update Complaint: Kidnapper saw Jayme Closs get on school bus; 'he knew that was the girl he was going to take'   Transcript Welcome to the first minisode of the Spooky Sconnie Podcast, the podcast that talks about all things creepy, weird, spooky, and more in the state of Wisconsin. One of the things that I think it's very interesting about true crime is when you get the opportunity to cover a case as it unfolds when you are a podcaster or a writer or what have you, and I wanted to take time today to talk about a fairly well known kidnapping. The recently occurred here in Wisconsin and is actually reaching the trial stage and I'll talk about all the details and get you all caught up if you haven't heard about what's going on, um, since this case is going to start going to trial potentially in February. This will be, um, you know, I would imagine a longer minisode series, um,and we'll just see where it takes us. Some of the episodes might be really short, some of them may be fairly long and this one will probably be a longer one just because of, uh, getting everyone up to speed on the kidnapping of Jayme Closs and her recovery. ----more---- At the center of this case are two, uh, locations in Wisconsin. The first is Barron, Wisconsin, which is located in the northwest of the state. Um, it's a city, so there's a town of Barron and surrounding that town is the city of Barron and is located in Barron county. This happens so much in Wisconsin specifically as wild. Uh, let's be more imaginative with names. I don't know. Anyway, there's an estimated 3,300 people in the area and it's actually closer to Lake Superior, one of the Great Lakes than it is to Madison. In fact, it's roughly 220 miles or about three and a half hours away by car from Madison versus being about an hour and 45 minutes in slightly different directions from both Minneapolis or Lake Superior. Gordon, Wisconsin, the other city that is really being focused on in this case, is up in Douglas County. This is, at least in my eyes, the most northwestern county in the state of Wisconsin. In 2000, there were only 645 people living there permanently and that really hasn't changed 19 years later, which is weird. Anyway, um, as, as par for the course for Wisconsin, there are a lot of cabins where people come up and stay throughout the year, use for hunting, use for snow sports, use to be close to the lake because it is only about 35 miles south of Lake Superior. And to give you another idea of how remote and how full of kind of snow sport type people this is, um, there are signs that remind motorists to share the pavement with ATVs, be mindful of snowmobiles, etc. So it's really kind of up there. Um, and, and a very active Space. The two cities are about an hour's drive apart on US-53. And um, as I said, they've both been at the center of a kidnapping that made national attention. Now, um, it did start earlier than this date, but this is the main starting date is October 15th. James Closs who's 56 and his wife Denise, 46, were at home with their daughter Jayme, who is 13. Jayme was asleep and James and Denise were likely asleep or getting close to it as this was, you know, just after midnight on technically the 15th. The silence of the night in their sleepy area at such a late time - or early time in the morning, depending on how you look at it - was not going to last much longer. A 911 call early monday morning featured people screaming and yelling for help in the background, but there was no response to the dispatchers' requests. The dispatchers called trying the phone back several times without success and they got the voicemail on Denise's cell phone and tried to call the landline listed for them, but it was disconnected. All 911 calls are supposed to be investigated, especially when there's no direct response response and there's screams for help. So they sent, um, some squad cars out, sirens blazing after arriving at the Closs home around 1:00 AM. Authorities reported one male down and multiple rounds spent before discovering Denise's body likely near the bathroom. By 3:57 am, Jayme Closs was entered as a missing juvenile. The FBI immediately got involved with the case. Law enforcement agencies all over the country were told to look out for a five foot, 100 pound teenage girl with green eyes and strawberry blonde hair. Many tips were called in including one the next day from Miami, Florida that didn't go anywhere. The next two weeks were spent conducting searches of the area near the Closs home as they didn't think that she would have been taken very far after her disappearance. Police collected more than 3,500 tips, but no hard leads emerged. On October 30th, James and Denise Closs' joint funeral was held at St Peter's Catholic Church in Cameron, which is just a few minutes from their home. It's. I'm just down the road from Barron. Unfortunately earlier that same day, a Wisconsin man was arrested for allegedly burglarizing their home. Kyle Jaenke-Annis - that's a Wisconsin name - 32, was spotted Saturday just before 2:30 AM on motion-activated surveillance cameras set up around the property and entering the home through the patio door. He admitted to taking items from the home and a search found that among things he stuffed in his coat pocket were two tank tops, a girl's dress, and two pairs of Jayme's underwear. He told deputies that he just took the items because he was "curious about the size Jayme was" and he figured no one was going to miss these things. He also said he didn't know the family. He did work at the same Jennie-O Turkey plant that James and Denise worked at. Um, he was charged with burglary but cleared of any involvement in the murder and kidnapping. I think it's safe to say he's a fucking creeper though. Who takes and steals girl's underwear? Like, just think about it. most. Uh, well many I would say serial killers, kidnappers, uh, started with peeping tom stuff and breaking in and stealing underwear. So I hope they keep a close eye on that motherfucker. If you've been following the case, you'll know that the next big break came in just last week on January 10th, a 21 year old Jake Thomas Patterson confessed to killing James and Denise Closs shortly after detectives began interviewing him on the 10th. He told them he targeted Jayme randomly after seeing her one day get on a school bus. He told investigators that he was working at a nearby cheese factory, which he worked there for two days before quitting. On his drive to the cheese factory one of the two mornings he worked there, he stopped behind a school bus on highway eight and watched Jayme get on the bus. He told investigators he had no idea who she was or who lived at the house. But when he saw her, he knew she was the girl he was going to take. He meticulously planned the abduction. He went to the home twice before actually committing the kidnapping. Um, you know, he was ready to do it, but said that he was unable to kidnap her because there were too many people around. He took steps to steal license plates from another vehicle to put on his to avoid being detected. He also removed, um, inside trunks that are relatively modern. There's an anti kidnapping release cord and um, he, he went to the steps to remove that so that once he put Jayme and the trunk, as we'll find out later on, she couldn't get herself out. On the night of the killings and the abduction, Patterson says he took his father's 12 gauge Mossberg pump shotgun. His research had showed the shotgun was really common and would probably be difficult to trace. He also shaved his face and his head so he wouldn't leave hair behind. He said that he was determined he was going to take Jayme that night and was going to kill anyone in the house because he could not leave any eyewitnesses behind. He was also prepared for a shootout with the police if he had been stopped. I'm not sure if that just means mentally prepared or if he maybe had more arms on him that would be better for, I don't know, a shoot out. I've been playing a lot of Red Dead Redemption and shotguns are okay, but I feel like pistols are better for a shootout. I don't know. I don't know what I'm saying. this. I'm just nervous and this case makes me anxious. Anyway, Jayme told police that she was asleep in her room when the family dog started barking. She looked and saw there was a car in the driveway and woke up her parents. Her father, James went to the door and saw Patterson there with a gun. Jayme says she and her mother hid in the bathroom, holding one another in the bath tub with a shower curtain pulled shut. They heard a gunshot while they were hiding and knew that James had been killed. Denise starts to call 911 as Patteron breaks down the bathroom door. He was dressed in black wearing a face mask and gloves and carrying the shotgun. He told Denise to hang up the phone and ordered her to tape Jayme's mouth shut. He told detectives that Denise struggled with the tape, so he wrapped the tape himself around Jayme's mouth and then taped her hands behind her back and her ankles together before pulling her out of the bathtub. He then shot Denise in the head right in front of her. He dragged Jayme outside, nearly slipping in blood, pooled on the floor from murdering James. He threw Jayme in the trunk and drove off, pausing to yield to the three squad cars speeding towards the house with flashing lights. The entire attack took about four minutes. Patterson then took Jayme to a cabin,he said was his. He told police he ordered a weeping Jayme to strip and then dressed in his sister's pajamas saying he had to get rid of the evidence. Uh, he took her clothes and threw it in the fireplace in the basement of this cabin. He kept her in a space under his bed. To make her stay there, he would barricade it with plastic totes and laundry bins filled with barbell weights and she was stuck under there for up to 12 hours a day. I can't imagine being out of there would be much better at this point. Um, he believes that she tried to escape at least twice. One of those times was making banging noises so loud that it alerted some of the other people in the household before he made some excuse about it. He threatened her, uh, and scared her. He says into not escaping. We'll see how well that worked out for him. When his father visited, Patterson would turn up the radio in the bedroom to cover any noise that she might make. Jayme told investigators that she was able to escape on January 10th when Patterson told her he would be leaving for five or six hours. After he left, she was able to push the bins and weights away from the bed and crawl out. She then put on a pair of his shoes, walked out of the house and ran into a woman who helped rescue her. Um, Jeanne Nutter is a social worker and she was out walking her dog when Jayme approached her. She immediately took Jayme to a nearby home, making sure it was not the Patterson home and phoned police. They actually approached, um, a neighbor - teacher Kristin Kasinskas who had been just arriving home from work and absolutely knew it was Jayme right away, brought them into the house. Um, she and Jean got her - Jayme - calm and, um, phoned the police say, you know, 'we've got Jayme, she's here. You have to come. She's safe.' She was positively found then in the town of Gordon at 4:43 PM. Within a span of less than 20 minutes, police converged on the Patterson cabin where they came upon Patterson in his car who was out looking for Jayme. Police say Patterson got out of the car and said, 'yeah, I did it.' Patterson told detectIves he thought he'd gotten away with the killings because he hadn't been caught in the first two weeks. He also said he would never have been caught if he had planned everything perfectly, which also just feels like a scooby doo episode. "I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for that damn kid I kidnapped!" A shotgun consistent with the type of gun used to kill Jayme's parents was recovered. They haven't officially run it through the state crime lab system yet, but you know, when the ballistics come back and it checks out they'll be able to definitively say it was the same weapon. Patterson was actually officially charged Monday - yesterday - with two counts of first degree intentional homicide in the deaths of James and Denise Closs. He also faces one charge of kidnapping and one charge of burglary with a dangerous weapon. Each first degree intentional homicide charge carries a life sentence with it. The kidnapping charge carries 40 years in prison and armed burglary is 15 years. His bail was set at $5,000,000 and he will appear in court again for his preliminary hearing on February 6th at 11:00 AM. His defense attorneys, um, state Assistant Public Defenders Charles Glynn and Richard Jones said they believe he can get a fair trial, but they're not sure where they might have to seek a change of venue, which is something I was thinking about the other day. With how publicized this has been, it may be quite difficult for them to figure out a space to try him where they believe he can get a fair trial. My guess is they might just bring him down either to Madison or Milwaukee and try him in one of those two cities. Otherwise they may have to do something out of state and I'm not sure what the likelihood of that is. Um, especially like this was so close to Minnesota that I don't think, you know, uh, a Minneapolis court would be a good idea, but something like Chicago could potentially be a good idea. But they're so backlogged and they have negative funding all the time anyway. So I don't know what the likelihood of that is. Um, but it's something to think about. One thing that's interesting to me is Patterson has no criminal history. He was born in 1997. He graduated from Northwood high school in nearby Minong, Wisconsin in 2015. Minong actually from what I was reading, um, it's a single building that houses everything from kindergarten through high school because there's just a very small population. He was a member of the school's quiz bowl team. Uh, his parents divorced in 2007. He has an older sister and an older brother, Erik. Eric is the one person in the family that has a criminal record, which includes bail jumping, marijuana possession, and a no contest plea to a 2013 fourth degree sexual assault charge. Um, he was sentenced to a year probation served that. All of that said about Erik, they believe that Jake acted alone. Details of Jayme's captivity for the three months she was kidnapped have not been released. And the Barron county sheriff Chris Fitzgerald hasn't said whether Jayme was sexually assaulted. I think it's quite possible. Um, if you're going to kidnap a young girl and hold her for three months, I mean, where's the other drive for that? Where is the motive for that, if you're not going to engaged in sexual assault? I don't know. It's important to note though, that Patterson's attorneys have been lauded for taking high profile cases that have an emphasis on sexually violent people. So it's quite possible that those details will come out as the proceedings get underway. Jake wrote in his high school year book that he planned to join the marines after graduation. Um, military records show he only lasted about five weeks, which isn't even the full course of basic training. And he was prematurely discharged in October, 2015 at the rank of private because, again, he hadn't even finished basic training. Naturally the news is full of interviews with people saying things like he was just so quiet which like, look, also please don't extrapolate that and think all of us who are quiet in social settings are going to kidnap people or kill people. And I think he was just, it seems like, um, you know, they tried to talk to some of the teachers he had in high school and stuff. And it seems like he was really forgettable, um, which I think is more important than just quiet. The few neighbors who know Patterson's family say he grew up in a cabin in a remote development that's a mix of seasonal and year round homes about 10 miles outside Gordon proper. So that's I think that's where this cabin is that they're talking about, that Jayme was kept in. Um, as I said, his high school teachers barely remember the 21 year old man, even though he only graduated a few years ago and they didn't realize you lived in the same area still. Um, as I said, his parents had divorced. One of their neighbors told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel that the parents had moved away, but that Jake and his brother Erik continued to stay at the cabin. They often got in trouble, stole things and um, may have potentially spent time in foster care. Of course, that's according to the neighbor. Um, but, um, you know, that hasn't necessarily been fully verified. He worked for one day in 2016 at the Jennie O Turkey Plant in Barron where James and Denise worked before he quit ,saying he was moving out of the area. Um, between that and only having worked at that cheese factory for two days, nobody actually knows what he's been doing to make money since then. Um, he, he told, uh, you know, the detectives that he was unemployed. So I have no idea what he doing to get money. One could speculate that he'd been going back to stealing things potentially, or that Erik had, I don't know. Um, he apparently has no online presence, like no facebook, nothing like that. The teacher who nearby, who helped rescue Jayme told the Star Tribune she didn't even realize that Patterson was her neighbor. So I think that's an interesting juxtaposition to the other neighbor who, you know, so that they got in trouble a lot. Photos of the cabin, um, were shared across you know, a couple of news sites and they show like an unfinished ceiling. There's a three car garage. Um, there was an empty box of adult female diapers in the trash. A sign over the front door reads. 'Patterson's retreat.' Ownership of the remote cabin was passed to a credit union soon after Jayme's abduction. Records actually show that Jake Patterson's father transferred the title of the cabin to Superior Choice Credit Union on October 23rd. We're not sure why. Could -There could be a number of things. Um, and I'm sure that will come out as time goes on. After being recovered, Jayme was checked into a Duluth, Minnesota hospital, so that was about an hour away from Gordon. Um, she spent the night there and was being evaluated and was taken back to her hometown of Barron on Friday after meeting with an aunt. And then, um, later that evening was reunited with other relatives, including her grandfather who has been so vocal about trying to get her back. I mean her aunts have as well, but he really has, um, and he described the moment when they saw each other and, and they both just gave each other a really big hug. And that really gives me the happy chills? Is that a thing? Um, there've been a number of, you know, other kidnapping survivors that have spoken out about her recovery, about the fact that she needs time and, you know, she'll know that things won't go back to the way it was, including Elizabeth Smart, whose case really hit me hard as a kid. Um, she was kidnapped in 2002 from her Salt Lake City home and was held captive for nine months. And her entire family is Mormon. My entire family's Mormon. I'm not, um, but that was a really big shock I think to the Mormon community - like this cute little white girl getting abducted from her home. Um, and she's written a lot publicly about how the way that we view and teach sexual health stuff to young people is awful. Um, and I will especially say like within the Mormon church growing up, there were a lot of things like, 'oh, like you don't want to have sex with someone before you're married because then you're like, uh, chewed piece of gum and no one wants to chew an already chewed piece of gum.' And for people like Elizabeth Smart who have gone through horrible sexual trauma, um, that kind of stuff is really even extra demeaning because it's not like you chose to engage in those actions. Even if you did, you're not a chewed piece of gum. You're a human being. Um, and anyway, my, my sex educator side really likes Elizabeth Smart, um, and the work that she's done to try to combat a lot of that bullshit. if you're looking for ways to support Jayme and her family. um, I've got a link in the show notes to the official GoFundMe that you can donate to. You can keep up with her journey at facebook.com/JaymeCloss. And her name is spelled slightly different. So it's facebook.com/j a y m e c l o s s. And don't worry, it's a public page. It's not like her private facebook. Um, it was initially the page to try to find her and now it's turned into kind of a, uh follow her journey as she heals and let's, you know, help her and help the family. Also, if you want to - please don't be a fucking creeper - but you could send her a note at Light the Way Home for Jayme Closs P.O. Box 539 Rice Lake, WI 54868 I'll be covering the breaking news on this case as time goes on. So expect, you know, some mini episodes every so often in between the normal ones. I do want to say, um, that this case is great and I'm glad that she's back, but she's gotten a lot of press because one, she was a pretty white girl and two, because of the circumstances of her kidnapping and disappearance. Um, there are currently over 50 missing children from Wisconsin who aren't lucky enough to be in similar situations. And, um, I really hope that you will take a minute to look at the links in the show notes because I do have a link to some of the missing children's information, their photos, and I'd really like to see more people have a happy ending like Jayme will have. Um, I mean, you know, happy is obviously relative in this case. Um, her parents are dead - she'll never get them back. She'll have to work really hard to get over that trauma of watching her mother be killed, seeing her father's dead body, whatever happened to her in the last three months, but, um, these other kids deserve to be found too and they deserve justice and they deserve peace - and so do their families. And just because they may not be white or just because the circumstances of their disappearances may be different, doesn't make it any less important to find them. So please take time to read those. In the meantime, uh, the end of this week, you'll see a new episode about the Hodag of Rhinelander and I'm hoping to actually get that recorded today as soon as I get this up. Um, and then, uh, yeah, the, the regular episodes would be every two weeks. These ones will happen every so often as there are updates and, um, eventually I'm hoping to do some kind of Wisconsin-related movie reviews, which will be fun. Um, yeah, so I hope you enjoyed listening to this episode - minisode - and, um, make sure to check out sites like the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, the Wisconsin State Journal, um, and channel3000.com if you are looking for more updates about Jayme's, um, you know, abduction and recovery. And I'll also really work on sharing those things on social media. So if you're not only already following the facebook page and twitter page, you may want to do that. Um, in the meantime, have a great couple of days until I talk to you again. You just listened to the Spooky Sconnie Podcast. This podcast is produced every two weeks by me, Kirsten Schultz. The intro, outro music comes from Purple Plants. You can find show notes and more over at spookysconnie.podbean.com including a transcript in case you missed anything. Take a minute and rate and subscribe if you can. You'll help more people see the show by rating and you won't miss a single episode if you subscribe. And that's pretty dope. You can support the show over at patron.com/spookysconniepodcast. And you can email me anything you'd like me to know at spookysconniepodcast@gmail.com. Meantime, sleep tight. Don't let the badgers bite.  

Welcome to the Spooky Sconnie podcast, the show that talks about the spooky, paranormal, criminal, and just plain odd Badger State. While we're known for sportsball and food, there's a lot more to learn about Wisconsin if you know where to look. In this episode, I cover the Pfister - a Milwaukee hotel spooky enough to scare off professional atheletes... and fancy enough to keep the pleebs like me away. We'll cover fun history, baseball, and portly gents. Also, does this look like it's seemlessly integrated? I don't think so. Further reading History on the Pfister website Documentary on the Pfister Pfister named one of America’s most haunted historic hotels Stories from Bryce Harper, Brandon Phillips, Giancarlo Stanton, Michael Young, Justin Upton, Pablo Sandoval, CJ Wilson, and Shane Victorino Carlos Martinez's story Jon Gray's ghost hunting The most frightening haunted baseball stories from Milwaukee's Pfister Hotel, according to MLB Here's a list of MLB players who have been haunted by Milwaukee's Pfister Hotel from JS Online This Shit Doesn’t Happen Overnight: The Insidious Planning That Goes Into Gentrification 7 Reasons Why Gentrification Hurts Communities of Color 5 Tactics That Fight Gentrification While Boosting Community Development 9 Ways Privileged People Can Reduce the Negative Impact of Gentrification Don’t Fall for These 3 Excuses for Gentrification – They’re Excusing Colonization, Too The next episode should be out by January 19th. Transcript Hey! In case you haven't listened to the first episode, I'm Kirsten Schultz and I'm your host. We talk about everything weird and creepy and spooky and random in Wisconsin. I really love true crime and I was really kind of getting bummed that the only few things being covered in Wisconsin constantly are Ed Gein and Jeffrey Dahmer. And while both of their stories are interesting, there's so much more to Wisconsin. So thanks for tuning in. Thanks for wanting to learn more about Wisconsin and random creepy shit. This week I wanted to do one of the coolest places. I have never been in the state. The Pfister hotel in Milwaukee is expensive enough to scare off the average person (i.e., me) and haunted enough to scare off even professional athletes. ----more---- Located at 424 East Wisconsin Avenue, the Pfister Hotel opened in 1893. The hotel is ornate and beautiful and happens to house the largest Victorian art collection of any hotel in the world, which I guess I didn't assume any hotel housed much Victorian art. So that was a weird fact for me. I don't know. It's fancy. It costs about a million dollars to build back in 1893. Um, and just to give you a rough idea in today's money, that's about $26,000,000. It's a lot. It's not just one of the most haunted places in Wisconsin, it's also one of the most haunted places in the country and constantly makes top 10 lists or top nine list or random numbers, but it's constantly the top of like spooky haunted hotel shit which is kind of awesome. It is the vision of businessman Guido Pfister and his son Charles. Um, like I said, the hotel opened in 1893. Charles went forward with the plan, still really enthusiastic about it, um, after his father passed away in 1889. So they had been talking, had been, you know, getting things set in motion for the hotel to go and be built and get started. And I'm all the sudden Guido dies and Charles, you know, carries on, wants to make sure that their family name, you know, still gets represented and really, um, kind of do this for pop kind of a thing, which was cool. It was designed by architect Henry C Koch [multiple pronunciations follow] - I don't know, whatever. There's too many pronunciations of that name. Um, he also designed the Turner Hall which is now Turner Ballroom which is a concert hall in Milwaukee, um, Science Hall at the University of Wisconsin campus in Madison as well as Milwaukee's city hall. The Pfister had features uncommon in its time such as fireproofing, electricity, and even thermostat controls like this shit was fannnncy. It replaced the Newhall House essentially, um, which had been destroyed in a fire in 1883. And that killed 90 people. But, but the Newhall House was like THE hotel in the city. Um, so once the Pfister came in, it became THE hotel in the city. And it's constantly where a number of professional sports teams stay when they're in town, where a lot of performing acts at nearby entertainment venue stay. So it's really a mainstay of stable in Milwaukee 125 years later, which is really cool. The story or the lobby is three stories and they really wanted to make it like a lush, opulent, glorious living room. There's touches of gold gilding, grand marble staircases that have bronze lions on them, like, to greet people, like on the sides. It's ridiculous. There's of course paintings and all the fancy art. There's a fresco on the ceiling, like it's like the spooky hotel should have been on American Horror Story: Hotel. Like it is fancy as fuck. Fuck-fancy. The whole way that the art collection started was actually, Charles wanted to share his personal art collection with the guests and really make that area feel like the fancy ass living room it is. It kind of started from there. The original building, um, because there have been additions which I will get to in a moment. Um, but it was eight stories. It's kind of this creamy or grayish limestone. There's romanesque renewal architecture on the outside. Um, there's granite columns, there's terra cotta touches and there's these giant bay windows - giant. The original 200 rooms were built with high ceilings and decorated with 19th century decorations, as you might imagine. It really offered a number of cool, um, services and conveniences within its walls as a lot of, like really fancy hotels tend to do it, housed things including restaurants, naturally a barbershop, hair salon, a drugstore with a Soda Fountain, a men's Lounge, a ladies' lounge, and the ballroom, which is, you know, available for rent for different things like weddings and other events at exorbitant prices. Um, you know, has seen a number of really cool events including a dinner for President William Mckinley and his cabinet, which is kind of amazing. Um, I don't think many people realize like how cool Wisconsin is. I mean, that's why I'm doing this podcast, but like, it's just one of those places that has always, you think of Milwaukee and that's what you think of, um, at least for people I think within the state who know about Pfister and it's significance in Milwaukee. That's what you think - for me, I think of the Brewers, the Bucks, and the Pfister, which they all kind of go together oddly enough. We'll get to that in a minute. So in the late fifties to early sixties, uh, there was a real period of decline, um, just in general in Milwaukee. It kind of tanked a little bit and fewer people were going to these really expensive fancy places. So, the hotel was purchased by Ben Marcus (of Marcus theaters, like, fame) and he wanted to bring the hotel back to its former glory because it also had kind of fallen into disrepair in some spots and it wasn't as great as it once had been over several years. They, you know, did renovations across though, it's how they also added some new things. So the first thing to do was a 23-story guestroom tower and it's kind of, if you're looking head on at the building, it's actually behind the original building, kind of like a circular tower, which is interesting. And that provided another 176 rooms and there's also a parking garage with that. And this is all 'seamlessly' added onto the old building. I kept seeing the word seamlessly added like that phrase. And honestly I get what they're going for. The colors the same. The style is not the same. I mean it's like setting up a roll of paper towels behind your laptop and making sure they're the same color and being like, "look, this was seamlessly added." Like, no, it's not the same. Um, it is really clear that it's not the same. You know, the, the added tower really looks very a sixties, I don't know. Anyway, to them it was seamlessly added. That's where the fanciest things are, which to me doesn't make any sense because they should be in the old building. But uh, there's rooms that feature English regency furniture, oversize wooden beds with post headboards swag drapes, framing bay windows and written white marble bathrooms. And just roll, just roll with the, uh, accents here. Currently all of the hotels, rooms and suites have magnificent furnishings. I copied some of this stuff from their hotels.com page, so I'm not meaning to sound like an ad for them, but it's going to come off a little bit that way. Um, there's 307 rooms currently. Um, there are 82 suites which have wet bars and sitting rooms. And wet bars, if you don't know what that is, um, if you've ever been in a larger hotel room and there's a little kitchennette kind of a thing where you've got like a little sink and a little like wine fridge that's a wet bar, not like swim up to a bar Wet Bar, although that'd be kind of amazing in these suites. The heritage suites have separate baths and showers, vanities, beautiful bathrooms and California king size beds. The king suites are in the historical section of the hotel and those have two rooms, a parlor and then the bedroom with a king bed. And in the pictures I was seeing, they are all like four-post beds, which is kind of fun. There's also usually like a pull out sleeper sofa in the parlor room. The tower king and double rooms or deluxe rooms which have spectacular views of the city and Lake Michigan because it is really in the heart of kind of downtown area, so you're really close to the lake and that towers pretty tall, so it's really easy to see the lake from those rooms. The Pfister double room is a deluxe room which is located in the section of the hotel that was renovated in 2008 because there was, there have been some ongoing renovations, but nothing quite as large as that one in the sixties from Ben Marcus. There's also a governor suite which is a three room suite. It includes a desk, a flatscreen TV, makeup mirrors, hairdryers and other amenities. You know, kind of going back to that Victorian artwork, visitors can explore and learn about the art collection in two ways. There's a self-guided tour, but the hotel - this is how you know it's fucking fancy - always has an artist-in-residence and they will take you on a tour of the artwork. Of course, it's had many different fancy people from dignitaries to musicians to actors, politicians (which I guess they're including in dignitaries but I feel like there's not a lot of dignity there). It's the most historic hotel in Wisconsin. It's a member of the elite preferred hotels and resorts worldwide and historic hotels of America, which, uh, is part of the program for National Trust for Historic Preservation. It's also a perennial winner of the AAA four diamond award. It's got like, it's one of those places that leaves chocolate on your pillows and has this little little note on the chocolates: "Because this hotel is a human institution to serve people and not solely a moneymaking organization. We hope that God will grant you peace and rest while you are under our roof. May the business that brought you out here way prosper. May every call you make and every message you receive add to your joy. May this room and hotel be your second home." Yeah, a is weird. Like I get it, but also like we're in 2018, 2019 here. Um, I don't know. It's just weird. Anyway, like I said, not here to be an advert for the hotel. So, let's dive into hauntings. The Pfister is legendary for ghosts, ghost hunting, ghost stories. Um, it was actually named one of America's most haunted historic hotels, which is real cool. The legend is that one of the ghost that haunts the hotel is Charles Pfister. You may remember him as the kid that went ahead and built the hotel. Guests and staff have seen him. They think he's a good natured portly gent. (Portly Gent - please some day if slash when I die, refer to me as a portly gent because that would be amazing) He usually stands, like, around the fancy staircase or is walking around the lobby and kind of enjoying what he built, which is cool. He's also been seen walking around the galleries and looking at the art. There's also like a random note in here about the people, like, hear puppies? I, I would be so happy, like I love dogs! So, every time I see any kind of animal I either shout out what it is - "Puppies!" - or, like, if I'm driving and I see a cow, okay, I'll go "Moos!" or I'll just start moving at them. Like, it would frustrate me to no end to be in a place where I can hear puppies, but there's no puppies to be found. I'm sorry. That is torture. Torture. Um, aside from puppies, the Pfister is beyond infamous among sports teams, particularly in major league baseball - so much so that a number of players will pay their own way to stay in different hotels to avoid the Pfister altogether when their teams are in town to play the Brewers. Players in general have reported things like stomping footsteps, moving lights, the AC or TV turning on and off, and mysterious voices. Um, I'll put a link to some of the most interesting and fun stories because there are a lot. Um, but I also want to share some right now because Holy Shit. Adrian Beltre, who's now retired, said in an interview in Sports Illustrated of all places that he heard knocking in the hallway and on his door. So, he went out to investigate, and found no one. Later, he watched as the air conditioning and TV both were switching on and off by themselves. When he was sleeping, he was awakened by pounding noises from behind his headboard. He was so scared that he actually took his bat with him to bed for protection and he was only able to sleep about two hours he said during his three nights stay. Carlos Gomez, former Brewer now on the Tampa Bay Rays, also experienced something paranormal. A day before a game, he heard disembodied voices and his ipod switched on by itself. It began vibrating wildly and just fell down. When he picked, he picked up the Ipod to look at it, to try to figure out what's wrong. So he puts it back down on the table and it started doing the same thing again. I love Carlos Gomez. Oh God, he's so cool. Brendan Ryan said in 2009 of his experience, "it was like a moving light that kind of passed through the room and the room got a bit chillier." The Brewers' manager, Craig Counsell, said two years ago that he heard former Pirates infielder Pedro Alvarez had experienced some 'weirdness' at the hotel and that matches up with a story told that year by Pirates manager Clint Hurdle, who didn't name names but said one of his players became spooked because the TV in his room turned on a couple of times throughout the night. Ji-Man Choi, who's currently on the Tampa Bay Rays and playing with Carlos Gomez which is awesome, had a spirit appear in his bed in 2016. Carlos Martinez of the Cardinals had a run in with a ghost in mid 2018, too. This one made a lot more news because I think we're more down to talk about this shit now it seems like. Um, so what he said was after he saw an apparition in his room, he couldn't sleep alone. And he even took to instagram to share his experience, which is probably part of why this blew up. Um, so he has actually like an instagram video and I'll link to that in the show notes. You can take a look at it because it's amazing. Colby Lewis apparently saw a 'skeletal apparition' move across this hotel room around 1:30 AM. It freaked him out so much that he talked with the team's chaplain as soon as possible. And then missed a press appearance the next day because he was too freaked out just trying to deal with it. Um, one anonymous manager reported he had to calm down a player in the middle of the night to convince him that ghosts don't exist. While many players have fear over the hotel, there are actually a bunch that are like, "Yeah, bring it on!" Rockies pitcher Jon Gray is one of those types of people. He's our peeps, um, and he actually conducted a paranormal investigation where the times he was in town, which is really cool and I want to hang out with that dude. Seriously, that's the way to do it. You just got to embrace it. If you find nothing, then like, you can calm yourself down and be like, 'hey, it's fine. No portly gents in my room.' Portly gent. Um, some of the other things that people see or experience are phantom footsteps, both apparently of the human and puppy variety, floating orbs, phantom voices, electrical anomalies, object manipulations and apparitions of portly gents and apparently also not poorly gents. Uh, so this is kind of a quick one because there's not really anything super scary about the Pfister. It just haunted as fuck. Um, and I'll put pictures of the outside. You can tell me if you agree with me or not, that they are two parts and do not look seamlessly integrated whatsoever. Yeah. I don't know. I really love downtown Milwaukee. In the last couple of years, It's seen a really nice resurgence and um, you know, good restaurants and good entertainment. I think one of the tricky things though is so much of that resurgence has come because of gentrification and that's essentially when white people move in and start taking over neighborhoods. So, if you've ever seen a Whole Foods go up in a place that was "not a good neighborhood" um, and then like that neighborhood starts prospering and hipsters move in? That's gentrification. Um, and Oh God, it happened so much here between Milwaukee and Madison and even some of the other larger cities in the state. Um, it's actually happening right now over on the east side of Madison where there's a number of buildings being put up - like new concert venues and new, like, luxury apartment buildings that then nobody can afford. And I think that's part of why you see it almost always tends to be like white hipster kids move and because they have money, or somehow at least enough money to, to live there because it's convenient and they can walk across the street to get groceries and whatever. I don't know. Um, it's, it's frustrating to me because there should be ways we should be looking at ways to, you know, reignite parts of our cities without gentrifying and without essentially resorting to racist white supremacist tactics to get there. Um, come for the knowledge about historical fun, creepy shit in Wisconsin, stay for the civics and justice lessons. Um, if you're interested in learning more about gentrification, I will include a couple of notes here, a couple of links in the show notes for you to do so. I hope you enjoyed the show. Uh, I think next I'm going to do a cryptid, the Hodag from Rhinelander. Yes. Rhinelander is a city, it's not like the Highlander, I promise. And I've kind of got a basically out of some of the things I want to cover soon. Um, I think after that I'll probably do a crime - like cover or crime, not commit a crime, um, because I wouldn't advertise that on any sort of media that I was going to commit a crime. The only crime I've done lately is I just ate Taco Bell before recording a podcast, which doesn't sound like a smart idea, does it? If you heard tummy gurgling was me, it's not you, it's fine. That's all for today's show. If you're wanting to find ways to get in touch with me, just search 'Spooky Sconnie Podcast' on social media. The twitter handle is @SpookySconnie, and then on facebook and instagram it's just Spooky Sconnie Podcast and you can see phone pictures of my husband wearing a cow head fake cowhead emphasis on fake. If you have anything you want to send me, you can do that at SpookySconniePodcast@gmail.com. Uh, as long as it's, you know, electronic. Don't try to put cookies in your email - it will not send edible cookies. Yeah, I think that's it. Um, if you like the show, please consider rating and subscribing. The ratings really help people find us. And it'd be Kinda cool to, like, be fancy causeI love being fancy and hanging out with some of my favorite podcasty people would be AMAZING. Oh, a quick shout out if you are looking for another podcast to listen to if you're just like so excited about learning about different places and you want to continue that and learn about whole different countries. Check out Nothing Rhymes With Murder. It is one of my favorite podcasts. The host are hilarious. They're funny. They're British, so I love listening to them talk anyway. And each episode they 'travel' to a different country and cover crimes in country. Sometimes it's murders, sometimes it's not, um, but then they'll also give you hot spots that are like somewhat close to where they are crimes occurred so that if you should happen to be going to know Ireland, then you could like checkout a cool place near Belfast where this crime happened. Like it's, it's really like 50 percent crime, 25 percent amazing banter and another 25 percent like travel show. It's basically my dream show. It's fine, it's the best. It's amazing. Um, so if you're looking for another great podcast, check that one out. And thanks for listening. Have an awesome day. And stay tuned for more creepy shit. You just listened to the Spooky Sconnie podcast. It is produced every two weeks by me, Kirsten Schultz. The intro, outro music is from Purple Plant. You can find show notes and more over at spookysconnie.podbean.com, including a transcript in case you missed anything. Take a minute and rate and subscribe if you can. You'll help more people see the show by rating and you won't miss a single episode if you subscribe, and that's pretty dope. You can support the show over at patreon.com/spookysconniepodcast and you can email me anything you'd like me to know at spookysconniepodcast@gmail.com. Meantime, sleep tight. Don't let the badgers. Bye.  

Content note: discussion of ableism/sanism, forced medical procedures, the fucking patriarchy Welcome to the Spooky Sconnie podcast, the show that talks about the spooky, paranormal, criminal, and just plain odd Badger State. While we're known for sportsball and food, there's a lot more to learn about Wisconsin if you know where to look. In this first episode, I cover St. Coletta's School in Jefferson, Wisconsin, lobotomies, and the Kennedy family. Further reading History according to the school JFK Library link about Rosemary First-hand accounts about lobotomies including history Movie link on IMDB Transcript You're listening to the Spooky Sconnie Podcast. I'm your host Kirsten Schultz. I have lived in Wisconsin for 12 years now and one of the things that always surprises me and that has pushed me to create this podcast is when we talk about odd things, creepy things, paranormal things, there are only a few things that people think about when they think about Wisconsin and usually quite frankly it's Ed Gein and Jeffrey Dahmer, and as creepy as those two motherfuckers are, there is so much more to this state then either have them or beer or cheese or the packers. And that's really what I want to talk about on this podcast. We'll touch on things from aliens to cryptids to plain odd facts to haunted towns, to serial killers and true crime. It will be a really fun journey and I'm really excited that you're listening. I hope this is something that you'll wind up liking and subscribing to, to kind of break with the traditional podcast thing. ----more---- Um, I do just want to list kind of my social media at the top of the show in case you want to peek around. The twitter is at SpookySconnie - that's s-p-o-o-k-y-s-c-o-n-n-i-e and our instagram is SpookySconniePodcast, so just pop the name of the podcast in there and the facebook page is also SpookySconniePodcast. So, hopefully that makes it easy for you to find. I think that's all the social media I've got set up right now. If you have creepy Sconnie stories you want to send in, you can send them in at SpookySconniePodcast@gmail.com. And I will eventually work on doing some listeners episodes, um, with this being the first episode of the podcast and want to do something like super creepy or super terrifying. But I wanted to do something I was really interested in. And um, as someone who lives with a number of chronic illnesses and deals with mental health issues, something that I was surprised to learn recently was that Rosemary Kennedy, lived in Wisconsin for the bulk of her life and that has to do with a place called St Coletta's in Jefferson. Jefferson is a city that's about halfway between Madison and Milwaukee. Madison is our capital, uh, and where the Wisconsin badgers reside and where I reside, and Milwaukee is probably the most well known Wisconsin city. It sits on the West Bank of Lake Michigan and um, that's where Jeffrey Dahmer played around. So... Some very different spaces as well, geographically, Milwaukee's very flat. Um, the, the glaciers back in the glacier moving era of the world, um, moved through that area pretty quickly. So there's a lot of flat land, whereas the further west you move in Wisconsin, you actually get to what is known as the driftless area where the glaciers didn't move through. And so I'm in Madison and, west of here, we have a lot of rolling hills and things like that. Jefferson is, I would say it where it starts to get a little hilly, um, but not enough to where you're like, whew, rollercoaster on the road. Jefferson's founders were settlers from New England and they really came during the 1800s. So it was while New England farmers were headed west into what was known as the wild kind of northwest territory. So what we're looking at are usually second generation or first, like, American-born generation, uh, you know, settlers who came, colonized this country and then started their movement westward when they came to Jefferson. It was basically forest and prairie and they started building farms and roads and government buildings and everything we kind of take for granted today. They really set themselves up as a, a place for education, a place for good schools, a place for abolitionism. Um, and it was relatively religious. We're looking at Episcopalians, we're looking at methodists. We're looking at baptist. Um, and that's, that's pretty par for the course when you're looking at people who came from New England in the 1800s. Uh, the school I'm going to talk about is called St Coletta. Um, it still kind of operates? It's In this interesting state at the time, and we'll get to that later, but I do want to address really quickly that the school was a school for the developmentally disabled. So if you do look it up, you may find the r word. You may find other ableist slurs, slurs, that are rooted in the discrimination against disabled people. And as a disabled person, I'm not going to use those because they piss me off and make you want to slap someone and I'm by myself. So I'd really like to not slap myself. So, um, you know, you're, you're welcome to look it up and, uh, take a look at other things and I'll put some links in the show notes, but this is not necessarily an investigation for the faint of heart when it comes to a discriminatory ideas. In 1904, a family approached Father George Meyer, who ran a school called St Coletta about accepting their developmentally disabled daughter as a student, uh, by September that year, four students had arrived and by December that grew to 10 students, which also included boys. So it very quickly became a coed school. Technically the school is organized by the sisters of St Francis Assisi, which is the, um, you know, religious chapter that was right there. The property immediately east of the city was purchased because the existing convent in school for girls that was operated by the nuns. By the early 20th century, a large campus with residence halls, chapels, an infirmary, administration building, classrooms, and even a natatorium occupied the southeast corner of highway 18 and county road Y in Jefferson? And technically this was in the town of Jefferson. It then became annexed to the city of Jefferson. A lot of places that have been settled had both the town and the city by the same name. In fact, actually Madison has both the town and the city and the town is only a few spots. There's actually one spot over here on the west side where I live that is still technically a town spot Most of the town is kind of in that, um, off of fish hatchery and um, oh, what's the other road? It starts with an R. I can't remember even though I lived off of it. It's fine. This is what happens when you have what we call brain fog. Um, which is something that you deal with, with chronic illness, it's like a, like a cognitive delay. So sometimes I might use the wrong word even though I know the correct one or it might not be able to find the information I'm looking for in my head. Rimrock. That was it. So it's a predominantly kind of the south part of Madison is technically town, which is fascinating to me. Um, by 1931, the 'St Coletta Institute for backward youth' as what it was called, became incorporated under a new title called the 'St Coletta School for exceptional children', which was chosen out of the consideration of parents, family members and residents. Um, and, and the myth at least is that one of the students, residents brought up, "hey, we don't walk backward, we're not backward youth." And, and while the change was good, backward youth is an awful term. Exceptional children is a bit inspiration porn-y, and I'll put a link in the show notes to Stella Young's talk about inspiration porn. She coined that term in a Ted talk and in writing before her death. And, um, there's so many layers of nuance to it that I'm not going to get into it here, but I highly suggest you look at it. Uh, we're just normal people, like anyone who's disabled in any way is just a normal person. We're not exceptional people for existing - that's kind of the cut and dry of it. And so they quickly became the most influential Catholic school in the United States that specialized in the care and training of people with developmental and mental disabilities or illnesses by 1948. Um, you know, they were expanding and building new new homes, new buildings, and really amassing a very large amount of residents by in 1963. This is, I'm going to just say this, knowing that I prefaced that there was the R word. I hate this so much. The first international awards for achievement in the field of mental retardation (Jesus Christ) which was sponsored by the Joseph P Kennedy Jr. Foundation was attended by, um, some of the sisters at the school. They started a habilitation program in 1965 that was started to encourage young adults to become more successful community members. and by 1976, a public law was passed that guaranteed a free appropriate education in the least restrictive environment for these residents - particularly focused on anyone with a disability, but, uh, it really affected these residents in a positive way. The Kennedy Foundation, um, gave a gift to the school, um, in honor of Rose Kennedy's 93rd birthday that was to help create a program that would eventually serve as a national model to help, um, aging people who were dealing with developmental disabilities. Now there's more that goes on with the school, but that's really kind of where our big, um, the most important part that we need to know stops. As I said, the school's kind of still running programs. Um, they kind of got rid of their main building and renovated it to, um, to be a corporate headquarters and all sorts of things they've expanded to not only helping people across Wisconsin, but now in like northern Illinois, all these different things. While important - and definitely, um, interesting to learn - don't really have to do with what we're going to talk about and you may have mentioned or you may have noticed that I mentioned several times, uh, the Kennedys and I mentioned Rosemary Kennedy at the top of the show. Rosemary Kennedy is the sister of JFK and RFK, and she was born in September 1918 - on the 13th in fact - and she was the third child and oldest daughter. They quickly noticed that she was a little bit slower to reach some of the youth milestones than her brothers were. So learning how to walk, learning how to crawl, speaking some of those kinds of things. She was just a little bit slower to reach those milestones. and, um, it doesn't really, when you, when you look at pediatric care now, there are some, um, mile stone kind of trackers almost that will help you decide with your physician, with your child's physician if the child should be tested for any sort of developmental delay or disability. Um, and they come at a number of different benchmark ages, you know, six months, a year, 18 months, two years, all sorts of things and they actually continue into young, young childhood and not just being a toddler, so that can be a really helpful for people. At this point, those weren't really developed. Um, but you hear a lot about, oh, parents notice that this person was just not as quick to do stuff. And I do want to say that that's not always a marker of um, you know, any sort of disability. My husband is a, was a very lazy baby and so he didn't really walk until he was like a year old because he knew if he cried, someone would come pick them up. So it's not always a marker of disability, but it is something that you could work with your child's doctor to, to keep an eye on 'em. We don't all follow the same growth patterns and some of us maybe learned to be a little bit more manipulative than others as we're children. Rosemary had a really nice childhood. She participated in most of the family activities, going to dances, concerts, visiting the White House when Roosevelt was there. Um, her father was appointed us ambassador to Britain in 1938 and Rosemary moved over to London with her mother and her sister Kathleen, and they just really enjoyed living there. When they came back in 1940, Rosemary was not making the progress that they wanted her to be making. Um, she was 22 at the time and she was becoming 'increasingly irritable and difficult.' And, unfortunately that is, um, about the time when Joseph Kennedy learned about lobotomies. Now I want to go into the history of lobotomies before we kind of continue on this because I'm a really big proponent of learning, uh, about what we're talking about. And lobotomies are terrifying. There are a lot of jokes that people make about lobotomies like, "oh, I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy." And I think once you learn the history of these kinds of things, how harmful they were, how harmful they still remain. Um, it's really terrifying. And it's not something I feel like we should be joking about, but that's just me. And you can make your up your mind up after you hear about these facts. In 1936, a psychiatrist named Walter J. Freeman modified a leucotomy, a surgery that a portuguese neurologist, Egas Monez created to treat mental illness. He renamed it the lobotomy. And with his neurosurgeon partner James Watts, they performed the first ever pre frontal lobotomy in the United States on a housewife from Topeka, Kansas, Alice Hood Hammatt. In 1945, Freeman begins experimenting with a new way of doing the lobotomy after hearing about a doctor in Italy who accessed the brain through ice sockets. By January of the next year, he's performed his first trans orbital lobotomy. Um, this is also called an icepick lobotomy. His patient at the time was a depressed housewife named Sallie Ellen Ionesco. He rendered her unconscious through electric shock, something that's terrifying in and of itself. He then took an ice pick and inserted it above her eyeball, but closer in towards her nose. He banged through her eye socket and into her brain by using a, like a little mallet on the other end of that ice pick. And he made cuts in her frontal lobes. When he was done, he sent her home in a taxi cab of all things just by herself. He was convinced that he had cured her depression and he believed that cutting away the brain would help regulate mental illness because he thought mental illness was related to overactive emotions. And of course, cutting away your brain is the solution to overactive emotions. These kinds of things were really common, um, before the medications that we have now came to be, um, institutions were overfilled with not only people who were developmentally and physically disabled, but women who had the nerve to speak up, speak back to their husbands and those who tried to vote and those who read too much and those who are dealing with vaginal pain and a number of things could get you landed in an institution and labeled as insane. Um, there's a lot of racism involved and misogyny and discrimination against all sorts of people, including queer and trans people that happened in institutions and within the field of, I guess institutional torture, including lobotomies, including electro shock, um, and more, unfortunately, which is terrifying. And I think, um, being someone who is disabled, queer and trans, that terrifies the shit out of me because that is, you know, the history of my people and um, that's terrifying. It's terrifying. But, these kinds of miracle cures that really served to shut patients up and make them how we wanted them to be, um, was, was really what happens. And even today, um, that still happens with ABA therapy for autistic people. Um, that's really geared at "here, here are the skills you have to learn right now to be as normal and allistic (the opposite of autistic) as possible." Um, and that's not a way to go through life. I've tried it for chronic illness shit - it doesn't work. In the prefrontal lobotomy - because there's the difference between these two lobotomies - The doctor actually drilled holes in the side or the top of the patient's skull, you know, through, through the actual bone itself to get to the frontal lobes. And so it can be messy. It takes more time. In the transorbital lobotomy, you could actually just access the brain through the eye sockets, as I mentioned a bit ago, um, and Freeman really kind of created what we know as the transorbital lobotomy today. It left no scars apart from having terrible black eyes, as you can imagine. It took less than 10 minutes and it could be performed outside of an operating room. And Freeman believed it produced better results. Uh, in 1949 Egas Monez - the portuguese neurologist - wins the nobel prize for developing the lobotomy and Freeman nominated him. It was about this time that James Watts - Freeman's partner - expresses disapproval about the procedure and basically leaves the practice. He's done. Um, and at this point, Freeman's career really takes off. He does these like nationwide tours teaching at different state hospitals and institutions how to perform lobotomies and, by 1952 he performs or in that year, I'm sorry, he performs 228 transorbital lobotomies within a two week period in West Virginia. It was for a state sponsored lobotomy project that was called Operation Ice Pick. And it was a huge thing for him. Uh, newspapers and news agencies were flipping their shit to be there and see him 'cure', you know, people. Two years later though, a medication called chlorpromazine or thorazine as it's more commonly known, comes out and actually helps treat a lot of the conditions that these lobotomies were supposed to fix. The medication itself has a really interesting history. It actually came about because of a french pharmaceutical company. And I'm going to ruin this because french is not my strong suit called Laboratoires Rhône-Poulenc. I don't know. I suck at French. Um, they wanted to search for new anti histamine, which is something that treats allergies and immune system reactions and kind of stumbled upon this medication. And today it treats everything from anxiety and mood disorders to nausea and even chronic hiccups, um, which is fascinating and terrifying. I don't want, I don't ever want chronic hiccups. It largely replaced, for a lot of people, things like electro shock, things like hydrotherapy (which at this point was really drowning you and waterboarding you), psychosurgery, other brain surgeries to make you how they wanted you to act. And insulin shock therapy, which is also terrifying as fuck. They would give you too much insulin, you'd kind of be in this almost comatose state. They'd bring you back. What was happening in these institutions and schools and hospitals was legitimately torture in the name of medical science. And it got us really nowhere other than these are all torture techniques that we use today against "enemies of the state." So yeah, you thought you were listening to a fun podcast, didn't you? In 1967. Freeman performs his final transorbital lobotomy on a patient named Helen Mortensen. it wasn't uncommon for him to do a couple of lobotomies on people, and this was her third lobotomy. She dies from a brain hemorrhage after the procedure and, um, he's actually banned from operating ever again. His medical license got taken away, um, which is frankly far too late. Um, there's actually a case in 1951, he was treating a patient at Cherokee Mental Health institute in I believe Iowa. And he paused for a photo op because he was so excited and the photo op happens when he's got the pick in her eye and you know, is hammering, smiling at the camera hammering and um, he went too far into her brain and he killed her. And that's not an uncommon story. He kIlled hundreds of his patients, whether directly or indirectly because of the "operations" he was performing. He had no formal training in lobotomies. Um, I mean as a spearheader of the technique, you generally don't get formal training, but, um, you know, he didn't clean his instruments often between patients. He didn't wear gloves, he didn't wear a mask. He didn't operate in a sterile environment. He often did it in his, um, office, like, like his home office or like academic office. You know where it's dusty and shit? Yeah, he did there. And a lot of his patients were queer or trans and they were given lobotomies to change how they were expressing their sexuality or their gender. And that's something that's really hard to sit with. I don't have words. My heart is beating in my throat because I'm just thinking about how lucky I am to have been born 30 years later than what could have potentially killed me. It's terrifying. By 1968 freeman is going on cross country followup studies of his lobotomy patients visiting them, visiting their families, trying to kind of prove that his shit is working, which is still terrifying. About 50,000 people received lobotomies in the United States. Most of those were between 1949 and 1950. About 10,000 of those were transorbital lobotomies and the rest were mostly those prefrontal lobotomies. Freeman performed about 3,500 the bottom of his career during his career, sorry, of which were, um, 2,500 with these ice pick/transorbital lobotomies. Freeman believed that cutting certain nerves in the brain could eliminate too much emotion, could stabilize your personality, and I mean he wasn't incorrect with those things, um, but for the wrong reasons. Where he's cutting into the brain, it gives patients an inability to feel very intense emotions and, sometimes, any emotions at all. And they kind of aren't as worried. People expressed that they've seemed childlike. Some patients did improve, which is terrifying to lend any credence to this. Some essentially became comatose and for others it didn't really have an effect and still others died. If you're looking for a good, um, fictional account of a transorbital lobotomy, you can go read One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest by Ken Kesey. Randall McMurphy is a character within that book who receives a transorbital lobotomy. Um, I dunno, I don't think it does it justice, but I'm a weird person. Freeman's most common rationale for doing this lobotomies was to treat things like schizophrenia. He also used it to treat suicidal depression, major depression as we know it today. And even chronic pain, which is a whole 'nother layer of terrifying to me. He had a quote, I'm in a New York times article 1937 - It wasn't his quote, but uh, but this article talked about the different things that a lobotomy could help with: "Tension, apprehension, anxiety, depression, insomnia, suicidal ideas to things like delusions, hallucinations, crying spells, melancholia, obsessions, panic states, disorientation psychalgesia," which is pains of psychic origin - I Think they really mean like psychosomatic, like that you're making up your pain essentially. Just bullshit. "nervous indigestion" - Hey, IBS pals! - "And hysterical paralysis." I don't know. It's ridiculous. He traveled in a van during his visit to all of these psychiatric hospitals, um, that he did over his career and basically had crossed the nation 11 times. During the time that he practiced, he performed the lobotomy on no less than 2,500. It could be more than that, this ice pick lobotomy. But it was on patients across 23 states, which is an amazing. The reach. He could perform over 20 of these operations in a day, banging them out quickly. And there were staff members who were horrified about how he treated patients about the procedure, about, you know, the, the likelihood of people dying during it and all of that. But there were, there were often people who couldn't speak up. Um, I read one account of someone who was an immigrant who was really just starting in medicine as an aid to freeman and, um, didn't feel he could speak up because Walter Freeman was Walter Freeman. How are you going to tell him he's wrong when you're just a peon? Um, again, terrifying and unfortunately still relatively common in medicine today. Um, this kind of the White Coat Syndrome is what we call it, that the white coat is seen as a, some sort of god like apparel and that a physician knows everything, sees everything and um, you should follow everything they say. And in reality - nerd tangent - In reality, whether you're a staff person or a patient, that's not the case. Studies have shown - and I did my master's capstone on this. I won't go too preachy, but, um, you know, studies have shown that patients who are more involved with their care, who gets the opportunity to participate in their care have far better health outcomes, you know, fewer emergency department and urgent care visits, lower health care utilization, lower health costs, etc. Etc. Etc. So, just uh, there's that, I guess. Coming back from our tangent and our discussion about lobotomies in general. Um, Joseph Kennedy approves Freeman to give Rosemary a lobotomy. Unfortunately, it left Rosemary permanently incapacitated and she was unable to care for herself. Um, this arch bishop was like, "oh, hey, you should send her to St. Colleta's." And um, the family traveled there. They built her own house on St Coletta ground so that she didn't have to deal with the overcrowding in the institution itself because after all, she's the Kennedy. She lost the ability to speak coherently. Her movement, um, took awhile to gain back. She lost the ability to walk for quite a long time, had to relearn it. Movement in one of her arms and the use of that arm was lost permanently. Her family really just kind of dropped her. Her mother didn't visit her for two decades and her father never visited after they got her there. After her father's death and only after his death she'd be taken on trips to go visit, you know, the Kennedy home every so often. And after JFK's election, um, in 1961 after he took office, the family came out publicly saying that she'd been diagnosed as a R word. It's a really sad story. I think people forget about her so much. Um, she had an older sister named Eunice Kennedy Shriver. I'm sorry, not an older sister a younger sister. I read my notes wrong. Um, and they were very close, very close. In 1962 Eunice started at a camp in her own backyard that was meant for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities. And that camp actually involved into the Special Olympics, which is pretty cool. It's really nice to kind of learn the basis for how things like that came about. The Special Olympics is not perfect and I don't like some of the inspiration porn ideas that it sets up. But it is cool to know that that came from there and, um, I think that really pushed for the paralympics to start and things like that. So it's, um, it is kind of really cool. Rosemary lived at St. Coletta's for the rest of her life. She died in January of 2005 at age 86. On January 7th, Eunice said in her eulogy that Rosemary left a legacy that was long and deep, particularly for, you know, the beginning of the Special Olympics - but even when JFK was in office, he was pushing to improve, how the government handled disability and really used her story to try to spearhead that. And I'm really sad that he died at this point because who knows, the, the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) could have been passed 30 years earlier. Um, you know, other things happened as well that, that she really helped with. Rosemary died at Fort Atkinson Memorial Hospital and her three surviving sisters - Eunice, Patricia Kennedy Lawford and Jean Kennedy Smith - And then, um, Ted Kennedy were all by her side. She was the fifth child of the Kennedy family to die, but the first to die from natural causes, which is also sad. There's actually an IMDB movie in there - err there's a movie that's listed on IMBD that's in the works right now about Rosemary and I am so fucking excited I cannot contain it! And I'm going to read some facts kind of about what they've got listed about the storyline, um, because I just think it's so fantastic. So she was really easy going as a teenager and a child. Um, as she returned, she became increasingly assertive and rebellious - how rare for a teenager! She had some violent mood swings and mood changes, but they thought that maybe that had to do with her own frustration with being expected to do so well and performed at these high Kennedy family standards. And then when you just didn't reach that, it's really frustrating and I could definitely see that shit. She began to sneak out at school. She, she was in a convent school in dc. She would sneak out at night and her parents were pissed. Joseph thought that she was bringing shame and embarrassing the family and could damage his political career and the political career of his sons, which was all he cared about. About of the 80 percent of lobotomies in the forties and the fifties were performed on women. They were very often performed at the behest of a man in their life, whether it's a father or a husband or even a son. And the youngest person that Freeman operated on was a four year old, so there were really, it was a very wide range of people, but it was often at the behest of other people and not someone coming in and being like, "doc, you gotta give you this lobotomy!" Joseph didn't tell his wife that they were going to do this procedure on Rosemary until it was done, which is terrifying. It was basically uh, they used an instrument that was basically like a butter knife to cut the brain tissue. And as they were doing such rosemary was awake. All of these patients were awake for transorbital um, and even for prefrontal at times. Um, she just had a mild tranquilizer but, but she was awake and they asked her to recite things like the Lord's Prayer or sing God Bless America or count or anything like that. And they made estimates on how far to cut based on how she responded and only stopped when she became incoherent. They estimated that her brain capacity went down to that of a two year old child. I hate the notion that we have to quantify those things. Um, I also really disliked the idea that just because someone may not be able to express more complicated ideas, um, means they don't have them. There are a lot of cases where even people in a coma, for god's sakes, and knew what was going on around them or could grasp the horrible things that family members were saying about them or around them and just maybe didn't have a way to communicate that outside their brain. And that's something everyone needs to remember. Anyone with a, with a medical condition, a chronic illness. it's not always that we aren't able to even comprehend things. Sometimes it's just finding the right words, sometimes it's finding the right way to communicate those things. I'm going back to the brain fog idea, right? It's really hard sometimes for me to find the words and that's actually why I do a lot more writing than I do podcasting and videos and things. Um, but it is really important, uh, to just remember that like, just because I might communicate better via writing doesn't mean that I'm like awful or the, my mental capacity is diminished that have so and so age child. I just hate those quantification - barf. Um, she, uh, again, she couldn't walk or talk after the procedure and she actually became incontinent for her entire life. So she had urinary and fecal issues, uh, which are awful at the time. That arch bishop Richard Cushing that I mentioned earlier told Joseph about St Coletta's. There were more than 300 residents there, which was, you know, growing rapidly. And the home they built for her was called the Kennedy Cottage. Two catholic nuns were really assigned to take care of her. And then there was a student that would come help - students across the years, and there were artists, uh, a woman who works on ceramics with Rosemary several times a week. Some of those kinds of things as she got allowances that other residents didn't often get. She had a dog, she'd get taken for car rides. She'd loved riding in cars. Um, and, and things like that that, that other people wouldn't get because after all, again, she's the Kennedy. Her, her family freely abandoned her for a long time. They would explain when, when John was running for reelection in the senate in the late fifties, you know, they explained away her absence, said, "Oh, she's reclusive. Oh, she's too busy, you know, working as a teacher for disabled kids. Oh, she's doing this, she's doing that." And they didn't tell people again until 61 after John was an office in the presidency that, um, she was dealing with developmental disabilities, but they, they also never said that that was the result of a procedure that Joseph approved. I mean, why would you? You wouldn't want that out there. Of course. I think in today's day and age it would be found out almost immediately and there would hopefully be an uproar. But after Joseph died in 1969 again, Rosemary was taken to visit relatives, visit home. Um, she'd learned to walk again. She always had a limp. Um, and she really didn't ever regained the ability to speak clearly, which is unfortunate. Um, she deserved to have that. She deserved to have a long life and a life full of support and care. She's buried beside her parents in holly hood's cemetery in Brookline, Massachusetts. Of course, with this being the Spooky Sconnie Podcast, I mean, obviously we're going to talk about hauntings. I found just a smatterIng online. There wasn't a lot. Um, but I think they're interesting and they're, or do seem to be a lot of rumors, but there weren't a ton that I could find that weren't, you know, that, that existed across a couple of different sites and not just, "oh yeah, I heard one time x, y, z." And I really want it to not just be hearsay, but like, it's also weird to be like, don't be a hearsay ghost, like I don't know. So, one of the dormitories, Serra Hall, was built during that time when they expanded a lot, has had several occurrences where there's someone walking up and down the hallway in the second floor. But every one is in their rooms and all the staff members are downstairs. Then there's also these interesting occurrences where apparently there's a spirit on the second floor that likes to turn on the showers. Cause there's no one around and that's what happens. I don't know - it's interesting. Um, and they, they call her the girl spirit. So it would be like, "oh, that girl turned on the showers again." They would always just refer to her as a girl. Um, but I don't know, you know, I couldn't find anything about why they say she's the girl. Like has anyone seen her? Or is it just like did, was there a resident at some point that loves to just run and turn on showers and they assume that it's her ghost? I don't know, I couldn't find anything. Uh, there, there's that. And there's also some reports of weird cryptid-like appearances around the campus. Um, Wisconsin has a lot more cryptids than anyone knows. I think the Beast of Brey Road [I misspoke] is the one that people may know. And I think that's especially because there was a movie that came out earlier this year about that. There's a lot. And apparently there's a werewolf/wolf man that has been spotted in the area. Um, Jefferson itself has some interesting haunted history and it definitely could be related to this wolf. My idea. So, so there's that. There's st coletta's school in jefferson, Wisconsin. Um, I hope that you enjoyed this episode. I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do next, but I have a ton of research sitting in my evernote and really just kind of going with the flow as to what I want to use for our next episode. My goal is to try to make this a bi-weekly podcast for now. That may change. um, and we'll see. I don't think I'd ever run out of creepy Wisconsin or Wisconsin-adjacent stories, um, but you know, some of them may be reaches, I think this one having the focus beyond Rosemary Kennedy might have been a reach, but I didn't know she lived here for so long. Um, so I think it's really important to tell that history. Um, and I think it's important to remember how those of us who are disabled have been treated historically. Um, and I promise not every episode is going to be so goddamn dark, but I think it's a good. I think that's a good base for maybe understanding kind of where I'm going with this podcast. Like I want it to be funny. I want it to be educational. I want it to be fucking weird. Um, but I also want us to all take away stuff from it. Not just from an educational basis, but like a snapple. I mean, maybe tomorrow I'll be talking with somebody who brings up the have of the kennedys were great and you're like, oh, but actually, and you can peel walking snapple cap. Can you imagine? Like somebody just dressing up as a snapple cap for halloween. that would be amazing. Don't steal my ideas, or do you. I mean, are you going to remember this by halloween? I don't know. I don't know that I'm going to remember this balancing. I'm gonna have to write it down. Anyway, thank you for listening to the inaugural episode of the Spooky Sconnie podcast and I will see you back in two weeks for our next installment. You just listened to the Spooky Sconnie podcast. It is produced every two weeks by me, kirsten schultz. The intro, outro music is from Purple Plant. You can find show notes and more over at spookysconnie.podbean.com, including a transcript in case you missed anything. Take a minute and rate and subscribe if you can. You'll help more people see the show by rating and you won't miss a single episode if you subscribe, and that's pretty dope. You can support the show over at patreon.com/spookysconniepodcast and you can email me anything you'd like me to know at spookysconniepodcast@gmail.com. Meantime, sleep tight. Don't let the badgers. Bye.