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On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I'm joined by Jiaming Ju @kunhealth, a second-generation traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) practitioner and health economist who co-founded Kun Health with her father. From leading one of the world's largest longevity data projects to creating personalised Chinese herbal formulations, Jiaming brings a rare and fascinating perspective to holistic fertility care. We dive deep into the roots of Chinese medicine and its powerful role in treating unexplained infertility, recurrent miscarriage, and postpartum recovery. Jiaming shares why customized herbal medicine—rather than a one-size-fits-all approach—is key, and how stress, liver qi stagnation, and over-medicalisation can often stand in the way of conception. We also discuss the importance of preparing the body and mind for pregnancy, how men's health is often overlooked in fertility journeys, and the practice of wu wei—doing nothing—as a healing principle. This is an eye-opening and empowering conversation for anyone navigating fertility or seeking a deeper understanding of the interconnectedness of health, mindset, and tradition. Key Takeaways:  Chinese herbal medicine offers a deeply personalized and effective approach to treating fertility challenges, especially unexplained infertility and miscarriage. Liver qi stagnation and chronic stress are common root causes in fertility struggles. True healing goes beyond quick fixes—it involves preparing the whole body and mind for pregnancy, not just aiming for a positive test. Partner health, especially sperm quality, is often under-acknowledged and under-tested in fertility journeys. Practicing wu wei—intentional rest and non-productivity—can help calm the nervous system and enhance reproductive health. Guest Bio: Jiaming Ju is the co-founder of KUN Health, where she partners with her father to offer personalised Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) care rooted in decades of lineage and wisdom. Before stepping into the world of herbal medicine, Jiaming led one of the largest global data projects on aging, spanning from New York to Singapore. With a background in health economics and longevity research, she brings a unique perspective to healing—bridging ancient Chinese traditions with modern insights. Together with her father, she helps individuals restore balance, improve fertility, and honour the heritage of Chinese medicine through customised herbal formulations and deep one-on-one care. Websites/Social Media Links: Learn more about KUN Health hereFollow Jiaming Ju in Instagram —------------- For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ _____ Transcript: **Michelle Oravitz:** [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast Jiaming.  **Jiaming Ju:** Thank you for having me.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yes. I would love for you to share your background. I know you're second generation, um, traditional Chinese medicine practitioner, which is really cool. Um, I love the fact that you actually have your roots there and your father does too, and I feel like. That kind of takes it to a whole other level when you're working and learning from your parents. So I'd love to hear your background and have you share it with the listeners. **Jiaming Ju:** Uh, so I'm a health economist first. So I was in health, I was in economics basically for 10 years. Um, and. I think before Covid I was running one of the largest think tank on longevity, uh, data collecting in the world at the time in Singapore. Um, and then I came back to the States in 2019 and decided to [00:01:00] retrain for four years. It takes four years in California. And then, um, that's when also around the same time I opened Quinn.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. So, um, do you Longevity? I think of longevity and I think about fertility. 'cause a lot of times when we treat fertility, we're actually doing a lot of anti-aging. Um, we don't call it that 'cause we're working on mitochondria and really kind of getting the health, um, of the eggs and the uterine lining. So tell us about your experience with fertility and what you've, um, what you've seen. In practice. **Jiaming Ju:** Well, I mean, I work with a lot of people who have unexplained infertility. That's actually an area that, um, that I work a lot in. And, uh, this applies to both men and women among my patients. So I will have. A lot of patients who, uh, you know, they probably had a failed, failed rounds of IVF. [00:02:00] Um, and then that's when we work together. I also have a lot of patients, um, who have repetitive miscarriage, uh, which is increasingly, uh, common, unfortunately. And then I also work with a lot of women on postpartum, which is more on the traditional side, as you know, in Chinese medicine.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yes, and so I know that we often get asked this, and I get asked this too, but I love always hearing the different perspectives on Chinese medicine. To explain to people in layman terms, why does acupuncture and Chinese medicine, I know Chinese medicine's a big umbrella. Acupuncture is really one part. I think most people think just acupuncture, but of course there's MOA herbs. I mean, there's so many different things. There's also auricular, you can get really detailed on that. So can you explain what Chinese medicine could do really to regulate periods, to regulate ovulation? Just kind of help fertility.[00:03:00]  **Jiaming Ju:** Well, I mean, first off, I think I grew up in the Chinese medicine family business, so to me it's very bizarre when people separate them. Um, you  **Michelle Oravitz:** the acupuncture and the herbs and the, **Jiaming Ju:** treatment from the, herbal treatment. However, I think, um, customized herbal formulation has always been the elitist form of Chinese medicine. It takes a lot of family lineage. Um, you know, pre bottled stuff aside for the modern human really, you know, whether you have fertility issues or not is really that one has to take a one-on-one approach to effectively treat something that's very complex. So having said that, um, I only work at Quinn for customized herbal formulation, so we don't do, although I'm licensed, I don't do acupuncture, uh,  **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, got it. Oh, I didn't know that. I thought you did acupuncture as  **Jiaming Ju:** no I don't.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, okay.  **Jiaming Ju:** We have all of you guys who are.  **Michelle Oravitz:** actually, um, I know in China they do separate it. A lot of times people will get really, really [00:04:00] focused on one aspect.  **Jiaming Ju:** Um, yes and no. I think in if, because in China and Korea they have TCM hospitals, right? So you have different departments where post-stroke, you go first off to the acupuncture people, which is the physical therapy part of Chinese medicine. And then. Depending on the severity of the stroke, you likely will get customized herbal formulation on top of that. Um, I usually say that, um, acupuncture is amazing, is like a great deep spring cl that everyone needs it often, um, customized herbal formulation and diagnosis is more like a renovation, so they're entirely different projects. I think when you consider a human as a house, right, you're building a house, you need, you have different needs. Um, in terms of female, I think we go back to the topic. I always like to talk about how, uh, women are fundamentally very, very important in Chinese medicine [00:05:00] because Chinese historically are obsessed with babies. Um, so this is the reason why a long time ago in all these empress, like, you know, like palaces, you will have. Uh, a whole college of hundreds of royal physicians, and they're all Chinese medicine doctors. And their goals are not only to keep, to make sure the emperor can live for as long as possible, is to make sure all these concubines can produce as many kids as possible. So this is why I think the, the practice, um, has a lot more interest in the history, right? The history is being that. We love kids and you want, China has one of the largest population in the world throughout history and you know, so it has a lot of that. You want kids and you need to care about women's health. So in a nutshell, I really like what you mentioned before, like when I actively worked as a, basically a longevity economist and my job was to advise countries in terms of, um, you know, fertility policies, aging population, right? How can you encourage, [00:06:00] and I often say that women's. Women friendly policies are essentially longevity policies. You don't have women giving birth to kids, then you won't have a, you know, sustainable population. This is one of the same. So I really liked you pointed that out. That is totally right. I think not many people think like that. Um. And so in a nutshell, like there is the historical interest then that would mean that in terms of research, there is the interest in the research, there is interest in data, there is, uh, Chinese medicine has been around for 3000 years and gynecology in particular in that field has been around for 3000 years. This is very different with how western medicine has developed. Right? Like c-section technique for example, was developed, I dunno, a hundred years ago, like it is very. It's, it is, it is. So it's really like not comparable in terms of history, even sheer patient number and uh, patient cases. So I think Chinese medicine really in many ways excel in understanding women's health [00:07:00] and fertility. I.  **Michelle Oravitz:** For sure. And I, I always say like with medicine, one of the key things that you wanna look at is how well does it age And Chinese medicine ages really well. So a lot of times you'll see new things, new pharmaceuticals, and then a couple years later you find out it's not as great and then something else comes out with Chinese medicine. I mean, it looks at nature, it really looks at like the elements of nature. That is something that is consistent. It's just part of really understanding that and then understanding ourselves. So I think that that is so cool about Chinese medicine. **Jiaming Ju:** Right. The internal is very much so the physical, right. I have, I'm sure you have too, a lot of patients who on the surface they're like. Really healthy. Uh, but they haven't had a period for three years. So, you know, this is, this is not, and then they will spend the money on Botox. But which then you're like, okay, you look good for maybe a [00:08:00] month, and then you have to do this again. Right. It, it is very different perspective. I think, um, many people say that, you know, why do, for example, in the practice of, uh, postpartum recovery, right? I'm sure you see it, and I see it a lot from the practice where. People who don't have, who are not on top of their health condition, especially in terms of digestive health. I'm more prone to have thyroid issues or, you know, uh, preeclampsia in the last trimester and then post burst. This doesn't only drag their health just downhill. And then also impact how you're going to have a second kid or a third kid if you want to. It really completely like, you know. Like it really completely wrecks your house in a ways that you didn't even see this coming. And that is a completely different perspective, right? Because often I will have patients who say that, oh, you are the first person who listens. How do you know I have these issues? Before I even tell you, I. It is really patterns. And I go back because [00:09:00] I am a nerd and I am an economist. Like I go back to data collecting Chinese medicine like in my father's, you know, practice. Like he will start seeing a kid at the age from the age of five and then she's, he sees the same kid when the kid is 35. You see a person's in a whole families right Conditions throughout their whole life, and That's The best possible data collection you can dream of, and you can think of. This is not just a, oh, here is some pills for antidepressant, for postpartum depression. Like give a women a pill like that. They will still have gazillion other issues, like what does this solve? And you will hear often for people who have postpartum depression, for example, right? Like they will then be dependent on depre antidepressant for the rest of their life. Then one questions. What does that serve? Right? Where does that put you as a human? Do you feel like you are out of control for your own health? Um, so Yeah. it's a different approach.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, completely. Uh, it's interesting you say about [00:10:00] antidepressants because I feel like it's almost, um, a screen in between me and the person. I feel like I'm not able to fully get through to the person with the treatments because there's something in the middle, in the way I. And um, and of course I don't tell them just stop because I know that that is a whole process. They have to be under the care of a doctor and tell them how to come out of it, because it's not something that you can just suddenly take out. I often feel like that. And I'd much rather if I can just treat it with nothing else, it'll be a lot easier. And then another thing too is um, that I thought you said that was really interesting and true is, um, you know, I think a lot of times often people just want that positive pregnancy, but you talked about something that is actually crucial. If people want a healthy pregnancy and then also healthy afterwards for more kids, you really have to think big picture and not just quick fix. And I [00:11:00] think that we're so conditioned for the quick fix that we don't think about the whole garden and really tending the soil. And I always think about it like that. It's like, yeah, we could throw a seed in and maybe that's gonna sprout. But if we don't give it the conditions it needs, those roots aren't gonna go deep and it's not gonna be a sustainable, like rooted sprout, which I think similar with pregnancy, you want not just pregnancy, but you want a healthy pregnancy, and you also want a healthy mom and baby. You need it all. It's not like you can have an unhealthy mom, healthy baby. You have to have the whole picture working together. **Jiaming Ju:** I think that's why like many people getting on IVF, and if you consider it a percentage of success rate for IVF is actually not that high. Right? Um, and then everyone is, and a lot of people are disappointed because they feel like I paid all this money and I, I, I got it. Why is it not happening? I think first off is because we're all conditioned to think that pregnancy is such a simple thing, right? You do it and you'll get [00:12:00] pregnant. Uh, the, in Chinese medicine we always say mental is the physical and vice versa. The impact of stress of our day-to-day demand, of being a modern human, whatever, whatever that means, has a huge number in other fertility potential, right? I often says to, I often say to my, uh, patients, um, and I say like, you know, often because. My patients might, in the middle of it, they're, they didn't come to see me For, fertility, but like after they healed from like long covid or something, they're like, I want to have kids. You know? Now I can really think about it and I will usually say that, you know, definitely be careful with like when you wanna get pregnant, because the healthier you are, the fertile you are, the more fertile you are. Often I think in this society where we talk about IVF technology, ever since it has been introduced, it has become a thing where people feel like, oh, so long as I do it right, I will, it will happen. And often people get very disappointed when [00:13:00] it doesn't happen. And I'm sure you see in your practice a a lot in recent, in the past five years, you know the, there is an increasing percentage of people who have to DOIs. IVF like twice or three times and still maybe without success. Right? Um, so I think there is a lot of, um, a lot to be said about looking at fertility, not just as a functionality that you as a woman or you as a human will just somehow have, but it's really about your overall health, right? Like, and I often talk to people who have repetitive miscarriage. I'm like, your digestive health is everything. Who is gonna carry the baby is gonna be you. Now, if you are having, already having like nausea, dry gagging, like five times a day, even when you're not pregnant, your chances of basically having repetitive miscarriage is probably quite high, right? So we have to fix what's, what is the fundamental thing. It is. Not that let's have a kid, because often [00:14:00] I, um, and I very, I talk about this not very often. But I do treat kids, and you often see a lot of kids who have incredible intolerance for food early in age is due to the fact that mother had a very difficult pregnancy.  Um, so this is very much so linked. It's not, like you said, it's not like the mother has to be in perfect house. So you have a chance, the mother and father in perfect house. So you have a chance of this baby being in perfect house often, even if you could get pregnant, if you have a kid who has so many problems, um, in the first two or three years there, basically. Um, you know, there was one time with a patron of mine who, when he came to see me, he was two and a half years old and he was basically deemed a failure to thrive because he couldn't gain weight and he was having leg diarrhea. Often. He was having crazy eczema. And then you find out the mom during [00:15:00] pregnancy and before pregnancy had a lot of issues. So this is all interlinked. Yeah.  **Michelle Oravitz:** it really is. Another thing I see often is people who do IVF and then they go to the doctor and the doctor says, well, you barely have anything. You really need to start immediately. And I always encourage them, spend a little time prote, you know, preparing yourself if they've never, if they haven't come to me and I say, you're much better off waiting a few months. Taking care of yourself, nourishing yourself, then doing IVF, then rushing into it. 'cause we're just looking at numbers and not kind of thinking about the quality and the preparation.  **Jiaming Ju:** Mm-hmm. ' **Michelle Oravitz:** cause in three months, it's not like you're gonna just lose everything. It's gonna just drop off a cliff. I mean, it's gonna be a few more months. You're gonna be in much better position. **Jiaming Ju:** I think that's totally true. I mean, in, in the old country, in East Asia, when you prepare for pregnancy, six months is very standard. That's when your partner quits smoking. They quit drinking, you know, you both eat [00:16:00] healthy. All of those stuff, Right. Um, and in this country we don't, it's almost like nobody necessarily prepare it. Everyone just expect it would just happen until it doesn't happen after a while and suddenly it goes from, oh, I'm really casual about it, to now I'm in a panic. I must do IVF. Right? Um, and. A large, obviously unexplained infertility has a lot to do with, there are multiple root causes. One of the most common ones I have seen is actually intense liver g stagnation, where often a women consider themselves as a failure for not being able to get pregnant. And the more you and I usually be able to tell with a patient when the first, for the first consultation, they'll say, I need to be pregnant by this date. **Michelle Oravitz:** Right. **Jiaming Ju:** You're not a machine, we're not ai. It doesn't work like that. And often, I also, I don't know whether you experienced this in your practice as well, but I [00:17:00] often, uh, I always ask about better the partner, uh, or whoever, is the sperm donor better? They have tested, oftentimes they have not.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, I agree.  **Jiaming Ju:** has done all the  work then,  **Michelle Oravitz:** I've seen that a lot and and sometimes the doctors don't even mention it.  **Jiaming Ju:** Right. And it is shocking to me because as we all know. through research, uh, I believe it was the newest study done using collective data from Europe, uh, the sperm quality, both in terms of speed and quality per say, is 50% lower than like. 20, 30 years ago, and this is understandable due to drugs, due to not sleeping, due to not taking care of ourselves, Right. Due to stress. So why is it always that we're plowing the field of a women? And I always say this, I said the worst thing would be I'm p plowing your field. And the seed is subpar then. So,  **Michelle Oravitz:** Correct.  **Jiaming Ju:** right? Like, it's so, like, it's So easy. for the man to get checked. [00:18:00] It takes no time at all.  **Michelle Oravitz:** I know. **Jiaming Ju:** So like how is it in this, like, you know. this is almost common sense both in terms of money, in terms of time, get your, get your sperm donor, you know, partner  checked first. Um, it's, uh, It is interesting. **Michelle Oravitz:** It is for sure. And then also, I mean it's, what's interesting is, yeah, you can get checked and everything looks normal and they're like, everything's perfect. But then the DNA might have something off, which. A normal analysis does not cover that. It's a special test that people take after, and usually they won't do that unless there were like miscarriages or there were failures with, um, the embryos to grow. So they'll, they'll then they'll check the sperm. DNA fragmentation. **Jiaming Ju:** It is always a little too late. And interestingly, um, I think even given my own experience, like I have two kids and they were born in different, two different countries, and I. Uh, [00:19:00] the second one who was born in the us I think the, the, even the md, the gynecologist like checkup is very minimum. There was, you know, like if you want like a, a better, clearer picture, you gotta pay more. Like there is like, I think the, the, the standard of what women are provided in this country in terms of like basic, you know, um, like a, a basic kind of gynecological service, um, throughout is very low compared to other countries. Uh, but I mean that also creates a lot of. Tension and anxiety from first time moms. Right. You don't know. And then you show up and then you said you're having some pain and doctor's like, it's okay. And then You know, there  **Michelle Oravitz:** supported because you know, internally something's off. Like, you're like, I know something's off. I'm not crazy, but like, ah, you're fine. It's in your head.  **Jiaming Ju:** right. And I think through and, and I think that's really the fundamental difference between [00:20:00] Chinese medicine and western medicine. Right. Chinese medicine. This is why a lot of people ask me, they're like, you're a Columbia educated economist. You wrote for the Economist magazine, and then you know, you run Nobel Prize winner think tank like, but like Chinese medicine, it must be so different. It's actually not. Health economics is all about getting subjective health data from. The person you interview, that's not so different from what, what we do in Chinese medicine. It's about you being the patient who knows best about your health, right? So if you say you have a pain, you have a pain, I'm, I'm don't live in your body. I don't get to judge you. I think this is also the reason why so many people feel heard. Chinese medicine clinics, um, where they feel like you're just another pregnant person, like time is up, you are leaving. So it's um, it's a very different process. Yeah.  **Michelle Oravitz:** It is such a different process and I actually remember myself the first time I went to an [00:21:00] acupuncturist. This is like kind of what started it all. I was, uh, in a completely different career and I all I could get from every single doctor I went to was the birth control pills. And people hear hearing this, a lot of my listeners already know my story, but it was just basically I had irregular periods and that was the only answer I can get. Never made sense to me on a intuitive sense. I was like, this just doesn't make sense. There's gotta be something. They're like, Nope, that's just your body. The only time you can have normal periods is if you take this. So I went through 12 years of that and the first time I met. My first doctor, Dr. Lee, who's from China, and he actually happened to specialize in gynecology. He sat with me and one of the biggest takeaways, like the biggest impacts that it had, was him listening to me and asking me questions and showing me interest in every part of my life. And I was like, wow, this is crazy. This is so cool. I've never gotten this much attention from anybody [00:22:00] on like, what's going on in my body? **Jiaming Ju:** right.  **Michelle Oravitz:** And then, um, so that was really fascinating. Of course, that did change my period and I was resolved. I, I did the, you know, real raw herbals and the acupuncture. But then also, uh, looking back when I went to school, one of my teachers said, and it kind of like never left my mind that part of the healing, like the therapy starts before a needle goes in. Just by listening and the second you feel heard, that by itself has an impact on your healing. **Jiaming Ju:** Right. The, the physical is mental and that is, um, observed and in every single way we treat patients. I have, I would just say like 90% of my patients not only have like physical ailments, they have a lot of like mental. Concerns as well. Right. Um, and usually as both the, the [00:23:00] mental improved physical improvement and vice versa. And this usually seems very, like, it's like a huge surprise or a big relief to the patients because they're like you. I mean, I, I didn't have to take antidepressant pill for this whole time. Right. Um, it's, I think is, is is, it is a very interesting. Myth we are told, um, and I, I don't mean this as a, as a, something like a, like I'm simply raising this as a question. How is it that we all come in different shape and form, race, color, experience, lifestyle, choices, all of that, and sexes. And then when you say, okay, someone is suppressed, you give everybody exactly the same. The only thing that varies is in the dosage. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yep. **Jiaming Ju:** Isn't that weird?  **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm.  **Jiaming Ju:** Right? Like it, and if you ask people who are depressed, um, I'll give you an example because I have a lot of A DHD patients, um, [00:24:00] especially, um, and The first thing I always ask when I examine the tongue, um, for A DHD patients is better. You have anemia. And often they do. Um, but as we know in Chinese medicine, even if the lab says you don't have anemia, your tongue can tell me you have anemia. The, the chance of you being anemic and showing a DHD symptoms is very high. So is that actually a DHD or not? Oftentimes is actually not true. A DHD. This is the reason why a lot of women who, uh, thought they have a DHD got on A DHD medication and then they crash when they don't take the medication, right, their energy crash, their focus crash. Then if, I mean, this is really a questions like if you take something, it works. The minute you stop, it doesn't work. Did they ever work? Right. It's almost  **Michelle Oravitz:** it resolve it? It's not resolving, it's not a, a true solution.  **Jiaming Ju:** Right. And then [00:25:00] when we talk about pregnancy, it's a similar process, Right. Is this just we implant a child in your body? Great. I'm glad technology works, but I think if I recall back in the days when, uh, IVF was invented, It was not supposed to be used so widely in today's environment. It was for, I believe, for specific reason, Right. There was a, a really strong infertility, I believe structurally for. Was it the researcher? We invented it. So like it was not supposed to be. It's the same thing with C-section. It was not supposed to be widely used. Like today's, I remember when I lived in Singapore, uh, C-section was so popular. It was like, you can pick your date. It was a thing you can pick, pick a auspicious date to give birth to your child, and everyone goes to have a csection on the same day. It wasn't designed like that. It wasn't meant to be used like that. So I think. Modern human need of getting things done. [00:26:00] Like I need to have a child. Here is the child, and here the child is delivered like this need of doing, boom, boom, boom. Just click on your life. To-do list is preventing us to see the garden you talked about is preventing us from really taking care of ourselves and really do the way that we are supposed to do that. Nature enables it because we probably wants too much. I don't know.  **Michelle Oravitz:** It's a too quick to, you know, quick fix. It's, it's going against the dao. It's going against that present moment, that being present because I, my theory or 'cause it wasn't really something that I specifically learned, but like, the more present you are, the more life force q you have because you, in this portal, your energy, your attention, like you said, no separation between the mind and the body. So the more present we are, the more energy could be here. If our minds are here and then it's somewhere else, or our bodies are just here and our minds somewhere else, we're scattered all over the place. [00:27:00] And, uh, so let's actually go back 'cause I thought that was really interesting what you were saying about the liver chi, like really, really severe liver cheese stagnation. Uh, for people listening, I've talked about the liver before, but liver cheese stagnation is severe stress. It's really being, to me it's kinda like being in major fight or flight chronically. **Jiaming Ju:** Mm-hmm. And it is interesting because the liver store is the blood. So some people will say like, especially, it's funny because I lived in New York for a long time and I will always spot a patient from New York, uh, from a mile away because whenever you ask them like, are you stressed? They're like, no, they look really stressed, but they're like, no, I can't handle it. This is intense Stress.  Handling it, you know,  doesn't  **Michelle Oravitz:** first of all, I lived in New York, so I know exactly what you're talking about. 'cause I'm a re recovering New Yorker. And then secondly ahead, I have a, like, I have a patient I could just picture in my head right now. I'm like, how are you doing? Everything's perfect. Everything's fine. Sleep is good. Good, good, good. Great. You know, and I'm like, she, and, [00:28:00] and then like every needle that goes in, oh, oh, you know, she's. **Jiaming Ju:** I think this is the hardest lesson in life. Um, I feel. Um, is to desire something and not getting it, like, either, not on your timeline or like not the way you want it. And I think, um, liver cheese stagnation is exactly that. I mean, traditionally we say, oh, it's anger is more manifested in road rage. But really in today's society, I like to interpret liver cheese technician manifested in ways. That is like a mild, like a irritability, like a constant irritability. You're just waiting people to, to do something wrong and you are snap at them, right? We are all familiar with that kind  **Michelle Oravitz:** It's resistance. It's resistance to life.  **Jiaming Ju:** frustration, right? You're like constantly frustrated. Someone [00:29:00] else got a promotion, you think you are deserve the promotion, you're not seeing anything frustration. It is. What you think in your head you deserve. And the reality, and there is a gross, like mismatching here. Um, and I, every single time I have a patient who comes because of, you know, infertility issues and I will always spend so much time talking to them about their psychology, like mental health. I, the way I do consultations. I have a huge part, at least I think. Total 30% of my total questions about the mental this matters in particular to people who have been having difficulty pregnant because, and I explain it to my patients like this, if you are so stagnant, if your body is so full of stagnation and cheat, where do you think a baby can sit? The baby. The baby has nowhere to sit. There is no room for the child. And [00:30:00] that in a way. Is indeed the hardest lesson because to be pregnant, to be a parent to me personally, I think is the hardest thing in life is, is the uncertainty. You can do everything you do. Right, right. In, in parenthood. You don't know how it's gonna turn out, and this is, this process actually start from getting pregnant. Like so many people feel so certain, oh, I just do it, you know, a couple of times. And during ovulation I will be pregnant. It doesn't work like that in Chinese medicine. You know, when it advocates for healthy pregnancy, it is the Jing, it is the Chi, it is the Ansys, it is the spirit and body of you and your partner.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yep. **Jiaming Ju:** I'm not even a religious person, but I would say that is rather agno agno agnostic like process, right? Because it depends. You need a bit of luck For a [00:31:00] person who is intensely chi stagnant, they don't believe in luck. You, I'm, I don't know whether you've checked this with your patients,  **Michelle Oravitz:** yeah. No, they, they put everything on their shoulders. They think that it's all up to them, and that's why they feel like they need to control, and it's being in that fight or flight because you're in survival mode. And when you're in survival mode, there's not plenty to go around. You need to scrounge and you need to work, and you need to fight to get whatever you need. And that's, um, that's ultimately, you know, from an observer's perspective. Yeah, that's what I see. **Jiaming Ju:** Right. And it is, you will see whenever that happens, you know, it's almost like you as a provider, you are being told like. This is the only thing you're doing. You're, you're giving me a child and then like, this is never gonna work. This is never gonna work because liver cheese stagnation. Really, I feel like clinically is one of the major reasons for unexplained fertility. And that in turn frustrates the person even more because you're telling them structurally there is nothing wrong, [00:32:00] but they just cannot get pregnant no matter what they do. Right. Um, so this is already a deeply frustrating process and telling them that, leave it to. Just follow the protocol and leave it to fate. And you, I will always notice that 50, not 50%, like you always have like 20% of people or 30% of people who are just not, they'll ask you like, what are the best thing I can eat to make this happen faster? Right? Like, what, what is, um, you're going against what you, you know, you're, you're doing exactly the opposite of what you're supposed to. Um, but that is hard. I think  **Michelle Oravitz:** It is hard. Yeah. It, it's, it's one of those things that is often missed and I, I, I actually wrote a book about that. 'cause in the book I don't give any diet tips or anything. Like, I'm like, that's not what's needed. Because everybody can look up like the best diet and there's plenty of great books about what can help. And of course everybody's different and, you know, really understanding kind of your own sensitivities and et cetera. But. [00:33:00] My point is, is that many times people going through the fertility journey are actually very smart. They're very educated, and they educate themselves on. Supplements and what to do. And so they're, they, they have that down, but that's not what it's about. I mean, it's about also the nervous system and I, I say the nervous system 'cause it's more late layman terms, but it's ultimately what the QI does. Like the QI needs to move and to flow. And if we're in this fight or flight, it's stagnates. And so you see that often? **Jiaming Ju:** I think that's really true because it is really about the difficult, the most difficult thing in life is to dive into uncertainty.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. **Jiaming Ju:** You have two types of people who, well, you have three types. One type who just like go with the flow, right? Nothing wrong with that. You have one type who always wanna get ahead before everybody else. They always wanna know everything that's supposed to be done, it comes to being pregnant, having a healthy delivery, [00:34:00] that's actually not how it works. And I think that's, you gotta have a openness. To say, I'm going to dive into this uncertainty because you know what, when a baby is here, when you have to raise this child, right, um, you're gonna need that when they start going to school or even when you homeschool them. It doesn't matter. Like you cannot control everything. And I think that is a very important thing that, uh, really starts even during pregnancy preparation.  **Michelle Oravitz:** You know, I will say it's kind of like meeting the love of your life  **Jiaming Ju:** Right,  **Michelle Oravitz:** and you're not like, you are gonna be the one that I marry. You know, you can't, you, it doesn't work like that. Then the person's gonna wanna run, run away.  **Jiaming Ju:** right. you. can't just come with your list and be like, well, You check every single list here. Right. Um.  **Michelle Oravitz:** it's gotta be a little more romantic and have those, you know, moments of quiet and silence and, and kind of have this dance [00:35:00] happen. **Jiaming Ju:** Yeah. But you know, I, I think the world has in increasingly, has increasingly become a place where. People want bandage solutions. And I think that where, uh, the economy, if you're looking at some like rising industries, that that's what it gives like, right? A product. This is especially the case in America where it's all about something has a product, right? Like what is the one-off solution you could give to that? But things where humans have been doing for centuries, like procreation. Defies the odd of that, no matter how many one-off Band-aid solutions you're gonna have, it's not going to click. And I keep telling this to all my patients who not only just for fertility, but for every odd syndromes under sun, as I have a lot of patients who have very difficult, complex disorders, [00:36:00] is that. When you commit to something that is trying to get pregnant or trying to get better, it's like when you go to a Taoist pimple or you go to any church or any religious place you go and you put a slice of your peace of your heart and peace of your mind there because you are really committed right in that given moment. And that's all I'm asking for as a provider. Um, I always don't always go into it with. But what about this? What about this? What about this? Like, why don't we settle this one first? Um, so, you know, talk about nervous system. You can come down first. Otherwise your nervous system is all over the place where you are like, you're not doing anything like, you know, fully. So.  **Michelle Oravitz:** And what other suggestions do you ever give people, um, suggestions that they could do outside of the. What you're helping [00:37:00] them with. Because I would typically say even like you can come in, do the acupuncture, even take the herbs and supplements. But if you're going back and having a crazy stressful time, then it's going to pretty much negate a lot of what we did. So I'll suggest things even like rounding or spending a little time in the morning of silence or peace just to kind of get themselves into a partnership really with me on their health. **Jiaming Ju:** Um. We have a 16 page behavior report that we customize for every single new patient, um, that I will hold 'em to it. That includes  nutrition and also lifestyle tips for people who try to get pregnant specifically. Um, I give, like, I consider this not as tips. I consider this as just like you need to do it is to get your [00:38:00] husband or your partner or whoever donates the sperm tested as soon as possible and making sure they're not drinking like six. Bottles of beer a day. Like, you know, like if you're in this like, you know, situation prep, pre uh, preparing for pregnancy, they should too. Um, and I usually advocate for morning intercourse rather than night intercourse. During ovulation to increase the chances. Um, and there are a bunch of specific ones. I usually give like on a patient to patient base, but I also will tell people to, um, spend at least one or two hours of, of a day to practice the Daoist principle of Uwe. **Michelle Oravitz:** I love that. That's my favorite, by the way.  **Jiaming Ju:** and I, you know, your New York patients will be like, no. But like, um, can I actually go cycling during that time? I'm like, no. The point of Uwe is you do nothing productive. [00:39:00] Then they have, you put them in a conundrum because they're like, then I'm just wasting my time. I'm like, no.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Wait, so people who don't know wwe, can you explain. **Jiaming Ju:** So WWE is the Daoist principle of doing nothing. Um, it's a practice I regularly issue to people to forcefully calm their mind. So I give a bunch of suggestions through what you can do for your wwe. Like for example, uh, you can knit, but not because. You're knitting for a nephew or something, you're learning to knit, not because you're good at it, it is because you want to. So it's to completely deviate from a lifestyle where we are chasing daily achievement all the time, right? It's more about resting your body and mind and focus on what matters on the present, which traditionally you to think it doesn't matter. So one of my favorite thing, even when I lived in New York City, was to really sit in a random coffee shop and just sit there, read my book or like judge [00:40:00] people's sense of fashion. So I will like people judge when I'm in the cafes. Like, what did you do during that time? Nothing. But I always feel like, great.  **Michelle Oravitz:** But it's like effortless effort. You're still there. It's not like you're totally inactive. You're, you're still there, but you're like in this neutral flow  state.  **Jiaming Ju:** Right, and then that's very important because there is nothing more difficult to a person who tries to get pregnant than thinking they're losing time. They're being told that they're losing time. They're late by every possible doctor under the sun. But you know, that is a time, is a, being late or not is a relative concept, as we say in Chinese medicine,  **Michelle Oravitz:** It's true. **Jiaming Ju:** So oftentimes you'll see people like signing off for IVF, not because they're physical ready, It's because they are told they are short on time, right? You don't do this now, you can't do it in three months. But statistics don't work like that. Like you said, you know, [00:41:00] within three months, your body's not going to dramatically change. You, you must well spend the time to take care of yourself, then really increase your chances rather than, I'm gonna dive into this when I'm super stressed. Um, pinning so much hope on this. Um, so yeah, again, I mean, I, I think that's really the thing, like having a child and being pregnant is not just something you must do in life. It's a, it's more than that. It's a mild, it's, it's, um. It's a face in life. One doesn't have to have it, but if you do decide to have it, I, I really think that people need to take a broader view on it.  **Michelle Oravitz:** 100%. I think that is so beautifully put because it is a big picture and it's um, you can't just take the part and then look at the part and say, okay, that's it. You have to look at like. How it interplays and works together as a [00:42:00] whole organism. And that's when you get the big picture. And, um, yeah. And I think about like, you know, the yin and the yang, you know, being too young all the time, you're gonna burn out the yin and that's ultimately the nervous system right there, having that balance. **Jiaming Ju:** Yeah, exactly. I think the society demands us to constantly deliver.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. **Jiaming Ju:** The question is, what are you delivering? There isn't a return policy for a parent once the child is here. You are responsible for them for life. Um, so this is not just, I'm just, I just wanna get pregnant. This is a how it's going to completely transform your life wrecking you because your identity will be rewritten the minute you are pregnant, uh, when you become a parent. Um, and I think people need to probably, you know, take it, I always say like, take it more seriously, but [00:43:00] also take it less seriously. I. Because I think people take it really seriously on the, am I pregnant or not pregnant part, Right. But that don't take that too seriously, but like people need to consider what that means. The implication at your health more seriously.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, for sure. And so if people, and it's, it, it really helps to have somebody to work with because I think that. There's a lot of reminders that can be done from somebody who's looking at it more objectively and not in it because it's very hard to understand, um, what you're sharing if you're not working with somebody else. And I think that that's like the benefit on top of obviously getting the therapy, but also getting, you know, the treatments and also. Getting that perspective because when you're too in it, it's very hard to decipher. So I think that that is very priceless. Um, so for people who want to work with you, what do you offer? **Jiaming Ju:** [00:44:00] I think the, if you're interested in, and I always say this as a dare and those are kinds of my favorite tongue, tongue readings to do, is that people who say like, no, I won't tell you anything. I just give you my tongue, and then they're completely in shock when I spell out all your, their life secrets. So I think That's the number one thing you can do. Um, and in these tongue readings, I also give three quick suggestions, but I give a very good overview of like what you're not telling me about what's happening, wizard Health. Um, and that's a very fun thing to do. 'cause everyone has a tongue, right? And tongue reading is one of the most traditional things we offer in Chinese medicine. Uh, but usually the serious, more serious part. Is the one-on-one consultation with me online. And um, and then customized herbal formulation. I would say like 95% of my one-on-one patients on customized herbal formulation. And then. We do the monthly follow up for [00:45:00] that. And then there is also a bunch of digital small booklets, recipe books like that we, um, that I have written. For example, I have a postpartum recipe booklet that I highly recommend for anybody who is pregnant. And you don't know what, what really you heard about this myth about Chinese women eating different things postpartum. You don't know what that is. Uh, I wrote. A 20 page I believe, recipe book that  includes breakfast, lunch, and dinner and snack. Uh, for that. So That's a lot of like self study resources as well. Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** That's great. Um, sounds awesome. And you do raw herbs.  **Jiaming Ju:** no, I only do gran.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, granule, which is so easy, but it also is effective because it's easy to digest, easier  **Jiaming Ju:** right. And everything is made to order. So we have patients from Scotland to, to Singapore. It's, it. is we, so it's, uh, everything is made to order and I co-write a formula with my dad for every single [00:46:00] patient. So,  **Michelle Oravitz:** Fantastic. And how can people find you? **Jiaming Ju:** Uh, you can follow us at Quinn House, KUN House. Uh, I believe we're on TikTok as well, but I never check TikTok. I'm a little bit scared of TikTok, so, um, Instagram is my  **Michelle Oravitz:** It's funny, I never got into TikTok too. I just do reels on Instagram. I just love Instagram. **Jiaming Ju:** Yeah, I think TikTok is a little bit of a wild scenario, but, um, yeah, Instagram is where I, I think do the most, so.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. Well, it was such a pleasure talking to you. You sound like a wealth of knowledge and I love your perspective and really how you understand, um, really from diet and, and also herbals, which is an art in itself. So thank you so much for coming on today. It was such a pleasure talking to you.  **Jiaming Ju:** you. [00:47:00]     

“I had already formed an identity as a parent, which made it easier for me to make decisions in the best interest of my family and kids during that time without heightened fear of judgment. I continue to be grateful for that. If I had had my first child during Covid I know it would have been different.”As part of our pandemic parenting series, Christine, a parent in Brooklyn, joins Miranda to share her reflections on giving birth for the 4th time in 2020, as well as her observations as a teacher about how pandemic isolation impacted not so much child development but parental development.Links: * Our pandemic parenting survey (you can still take it if you want to)* The first episode of our pandemic parenting seriesIf you love (or honestly even just like) the work that Sarah & Miranda do here on Mother Of It All, please consider becoming a paid subscriber. You support this work (thank you) and will get access to super special content like subscriber-only episodes and even very awesome tote bags for founding members. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit motherofitall.substack.com/subscribe

Hey everyone, I'm the producer of The 80,000 Hours Podcast, and a few years ago I interviewed AJ Jacobs on his writing, and experiments, and EA. And I said that my guess was that the best approach to making a high-impact TV show was something like: You make Mad Men — same level of writing, directing, and acting — but instead of Madison Avenue in the 1950-70s, it's an Open Phil-like org. So during COVID I wrote a pilot and series outline for a show called Bequest, and I ended up with something like that (in that the characters start an Open Phil-like org by the middle of the season, in a world where EA doesn't exist yet), combined with something like: Breaking Bad, but instead of raising money for his family, Walter White is earning to give. (That's not especially close to the story, and not claiming it's [...] --- First published: November 21st, 2024 Source: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/HjKpghhowBRLat4Hq/bequest-an-ea-ish-tv-show-that-didn-t-make-it --- Narrated by TYPE III AUDIO.

Throughout my life (especially during COVID) I have learned that when life gets heavy, my defense mechanism is Christmas. Something about burying yourself in holiday cheer makes everything better. It has taken a long time for Penn to understand and embrace my need for Christmas. As soon as Halloween ends, Christmas begins.This week we invite our producer Ann Marie Taepke onto the show for some laughs. We play some games around Hallmark movies, decide what the best Thanksgiving side is, and Penn tells us his Top 5 underrated Christmas songs. At the end of the day, we hope this podcast makes you smile.Shop our 2024 Gift GuidesVisit Our ShopJoin Our NewsletterFollow us on YouTubeFollow us on InstagramFollow us on TikTok Follow us on FacebookKim and Penn are award-winning content creators known for their online videos, including original music, song parodies, and comedy sketches. Their videos have resulted in over 2 billion views and 9 million followers across their social media platforms since they (accidentally) went viral in 2013. They have a New York Times bestselling book on ADHD, best-selling book on marriage communication, a top-rated podcast, a fun-filled family card game, and most recently, they were the winners on Season 33 of The Amazing Race.The Holderness Family Podcast is produced by Ann Marie Taepke and edited and engineered by Max Trujillo of Trujillo Media and Sam Allen. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

1)    Why do we say שהחיינו for Shofar on the 2nd day of Rosh HaShono, but we don't say שהחיינו when bentshing Lulav on the 2nd day of Succos?[1] 2)    I have no option to do Kapporos locally with a chicken, so I've been doing it with money. I've now read that it is preferable to delegate and to request someone to do it on my behalf with a chicken. Would you recommend that I do so?[2] 3)    One who lost a parent on the 18th of Elul, may he have a haircut on Chol HaMoed?[3] 4)    My rental of my dwelling includes a parking spot. I don't have a car, so I rent out the spot. A) Should I give Maaser from the income; B) May I keep rent for Shabbos?[4] 5)    I was taught that when giving utensils as a gift, Tevilas Keilim must be left for the recipient to do. Recently I read that the Rebbe toivelled dishes before gifting them to a relative. Please enlighten:[5] 6)    Minyan in two adjoining rooms. Does Kaddish-sayer have to be visible to all?[6] 7)    Due to Covid I've lost my sense of smell. At Havdolo says a brocho over spices. Do I answer Omein to her brocho or is it a hefsek between my HaGofen and my drinking?[7] 8)    When lifting the roof of my Succah after a rain, water pours on to my lawn. Is that a concern on Shabbos and Yomtov?[8] 9)    In Musaf of Yomtov we say ומפני חטאינו. A similar expression is said on Shabbos Rosh Chodesh, but not in Musaf of Rosh Chodesh on a weekday. Why the difference?[9] 10)  On Yomtov, may I read my lists of which foods are for each meal?[10] 11)  Feedback re. eggs for Melave Malka[11]; re. the meat from Ireland; story with Reb Shoiel Bruk; re. saying גם בשמחה ובצהלה on Shabbos Breishis[12]: https://us02web.zoom.us/j/9764852268?omn=82020039643 Index to previous Panorama Shiurim: Panorama Index 2 - Google Docs [1] מבואר בשו"ע סי' תרסב ס"ב ובמשנ"ב שם סק"ב, וראה גם שוע"ר סי' תר ס"ז.     [2] בס' 'הלכה למעשה' (ע' 175) דייק בלשון אדה"ז בסדור שהעיקר הוא השחיטה, וא"כ מועיל גם ע"י שליח. ומציין גם לשו"ת משנה הלכות חי"ז סי' ע:ג.     [3] דיני הגילוח לאבל ר"ל – ביו"ד סי' שצ. בנדו"ד הגיע לשיעור "יגערו בו חבריו" בתוך המועד, והר"י פרקש בספרו 'חול המועד כהלכתו' פ"ג סכ"ז מקיל רק כשיש צורך גדול. [4] נלע"ד שכל עוד שאין ריוח נקי, ותשלום השכירות שמקבלת רק מפחית ההפסד, אז אין כאן ריוח. וא"כ מותר לקבל תשלום לשבת, וגם אין חיוב 'מעשר'. {לבאר דין שכר שבת בהבלעה} [5] בס' פסקים ותשובות יו"ד סי' קכ סל"ד הביא מכמה פוסקים של זמננו שהקונה כלי לתתו במתנה ליהודי אחר, יכול גם הנותן להטבילו.   [6] ראה שוע"ר סי' נה סי"ז. לכאורה האומר קדיש דינו כש"ץ וצריך שיראה אלו ואלו. [7] בשו"ת אגרות משה (או"ח ח"ד סי' קא:א) דן בעניית האשה לברכת 'שהחיינו' בליל יו"ט, אחרי שכבר בירכה בהדלקת נרות. הוא מתיר לה לענות, כי היא כרוכה לברכות המקדש. זה לא יועיל בנדו"ד. [8] בפסקי תשובות סי' שלו אות ט והע' 78 הביא מכמה פוסקים להקל. [9] ראה שיחת ליל שמח"ת תשל"ז (הנדמ"ח) אות ז. [10] ראה שוע"ר סי' שז סכ"ב וכ"ג; שמירת שבת כהלכתה (מהדו"ח) פכ"ט הע' קלג בשם הגריש"א ז"ל. [11] ספר מנהגי ישראל תורה סי' ש אות ג. [12] בשנת תשל"ד הורה כ"ק אדמו"ר זי"ע לנגן הניגון 'ושמחת' במלים של 'ופרצת', ובהתוועדות ביאר באורך. וי"ל ששם כבר התפללו ערבית.

Welcome back to Inside Voice, where we kick off Season 2 with a deep dive into the world of coaching for voice actors. Hosts Louise Porter and Brad Grochowski return from their hiatus to discuss the evolving role of coaching in their careers and how it can both empower and overwhelm. Join us as we explore the nuances of coaching, from the benefits of niche-specific guidance to the potential pitfalls of overthinking every read. Brad and Louise candidly share their experiences with various coaches, highlighting the importance of finding the right fit and knowing when to focus on practice versus seeking more instruction. The episode also touches on the challenges of breaking into competitive genres like commercial voiceover work and the value of continuous learning in less glamorous but steady fields like corporate narration and e-learning. As always, we invite you to join the conversation. Whether you're a seasoned pro or just starting out, your insights and questions are welcome at connect@theinsidevoicepodcast.com. 00:00 - Inside Voice explores freelance voiceover world while being introverts 00:37 - Welcome, everybody, to season two of Inside Voice 03:10 - Some of the frustrations or maybe downsides to coaching are discussed 08:52 - Gen says if you're not getting enough work, get coaching 14:58 - If there was one bit of coaching that I would prioritize right now 19:09 - I do a lot of E learning for industrial stuff like that 20:31 - Covid: I wish I'd sought more coaching earlier 25:49 - Okay. Have we exhausted, uh, that topic for now? I think so. Yeah. That's good 26:02 - Emmanuel: Sometimes giving an ABC roll can backfire on revisions 30:59 - Giving three reads without being asked for three is going above and beyond, right 34:14 - Inside Voice Episode 11 is available everywhere that podcasts stream 34:54 - We have a new closing tagline to try out 35:27 - Inside Voice is where quiet strength meets bold narratives We hope you enjoy this episode of Inside Voice, where quiet strength meets bold narratives. Don't forget to leave us a review and let us know how we're doing! For more information, visit theinsidevoicepodcast.com and find us wherever podcasts stream. Links: Kim Herdon Darcy Smith  

After getting knocked for a loop with a dose of Covid I'm slowly crawling back to the desk and providing some timely advice regarding current and predicted threat reports from our friends at Fletch. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/crucialtech/support

Although having rock music hardwired to nearly every thread of his sonic DNA, Shihad frontman Jon Toogood is also compelled to expose himself through calmer means.For a man best known for songs like My Mind's Sedate, The General Electric and Sleepeater, Toogood's decision to release his first solo album as an acoustic body of work came as a surprise to most, but not those who follow the man not the music.Following a tumultuous period of his life wrought with loss, sorrow and isolation, Toogood turned to his long-standing love of music, more for personal reasons than any other, and sat down to commit his feelings and fears to paper. These songs were originally never intended to be heard in the public domain but after letting close friends and representatives listen to his solo work Toogood was convinced to assemble his songs into an album so that the world could share in his triumph and tragedy.It was not a decision made lightly, but he relented on his initial misgivings and packaged the songs together to form Last Of The Lonely Gods, which was released last Friday. To celebrate the release Toogood is also headed to Australia next month for a run of solo shows starting at Mo's Desert Clubhouse on Thursday, November 14.HEAVY caught up with Toogood for more details."I love this record," he shared, smiling. "It's heavy in what I'm singing about… I'm singing about heavy shit. I'm a 53-year-old who lost his Mum during COVID when I was locked down in Melbourne, and she died in Wellington, New Zealand, so I had to say goodbye on the phone which I found really sad. I wanted to be there with my Mum and couldn't so it was tough. After that, I got stuck in New Zealand away from my wife and kids for three and a half months because there was an Omicron outbreak that happened while I was on tour. There was no flights going between countries, so I got stuck there and that was pretty traumatic. It was traumatic for my kids and wife as well because they were locked down in Melbourne, and she couldn't get any help so she was losing her mind, I was losing my mind. Then we finally made the move back to New Zealand and I caught COVID. The thing that happened to me was I've got pre-existing tendinitis - so ringing in my ears - which is basically from a life of playing heavy music and getting too close to a china cymbal. I've always been able to deal with it. I will go and see a band, and it will be loud, but if I take it easy the next day it will fade into the background. But this… two weeks after I caught COVID I got woken up out of a dream with a car alarm going off in my head. It was like I'd been to see Motorhead and stuck my head in the PA. On that first night, I didn't sleep for 36 hours. I ended up in the hospital, with doctors having to knock me out. It's literally like a car alarm going off in your head really loud."In the full interview, Jon talks more about the personal situations that led to him wanting to write a softer, mellower album, more about Last Of The Lonely Gods musically, why now is the right time for his first solo album, utilising his voice in different ways to suit acoustic music, if there will be more solo albums or if this is a one-off, the upcoming Australian tours and what to expect, what he gets out of smaller shows like these as opposed to full band sets and more.Tickets for Australian shows jontoogood.com.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/heavy-music-interviews--2687660/support.

Garth Heckman  The David Alliance TDAgiantslayer@gmail.com   Website: www.aegisdefensesolutions.com Insta:   For anyone in IL. Luke is a linseed professional counselor who specializes with kids, teens, and families in Christian Counseling. If you or someone you know is struggling with anxiety, mood challenges, ADHD, and other mental health concerns, reach out to Luke   https://www.whitestoneresources.com/counselors-list/lmerrill     5 Steps to Transition a Free Country to Socialism Disclaimer: The following information is presented as a theoretical framework and does not advocate for any specific political system. It's important to note that real-world transitions to socialism are often complex and involve a variety of factors. 1. Centralized Economic Planning: Government Control: The government takes control of major industries and resources, determining production, distribution, and pricing. Reduced Private Enterprise: Private ownership of businesses is restricted or eliminated, leading to a decline in market competition. **We see this with big Pharma, the global warming movement, the FDA and free speech on social media  platforms…    2. Nationalization of Key Industries: Government Ownership: The government acquires ownership of essential industries like transportation, energy, healthcare, and education. Public Services: These industries are then operated as public services, often providing goods and services at subsidized rates or for free. 3. Welfare Programs Expansion: Social Safety Net: The government expands social welfare programs to provide financial assistance, healthcare, housing, and other benefits to citizens. Reduced Inequality: This aims to reduce economic inequality and create a more equitable society. 4. Labor Union Empowerment: Collective Bargaining: Labor unions are encouraged or mandated to negotiate with employers on behalf of workers. Worker Rights: This promotes worker rights, such as fair wages, safe working conditions, and job security. 5. Political Reorganization: Democratic Centralism: The government may adopt a system of democratic centralism, where decisions are made collectively by party leaders and then implemented throughout the organization. **this has been this whole past presidency… President Biden has not been in charge… it has been a behind the scenes collective power brokerage of decision making ‘minds that be”… who are those minds? I have my guesses, but I will bite my tongue for now.    One-Party Rule: In some cases, a single political party may come to dominate the government, leading to a reduction in political pluralism. It's important to note that these are general steps and the specific path to socialism can vary significantly depending on the country's unique circumstances and historical context. Additionally, the effectiveness and desirability of these steps are subjects of ongoing debate and discussion.   But all this is sped up and empowered by what we call Crisis fatigue. A government creates crisis after crisis and creates a social DNA in their people that is overwhelmed with division and distraction until finally the majority just give up and say… “I just wish the government would take care of me and everybody would just be equal”…..    Can someone just take care of me, im overwhelmed.  The key to this is don't see it as a crisis. Covid… I never saw it as a crisis. Grocery shortage, no TP, Retirement fund going under, investments crashing, climate change, Political unrest, Vaccine mandate, influx of illegal aliens… Younger generation going nuts, LGBTQ, Trans agenda, BLM, racism… none of it is a crisis. 

Gratitude. Gratitude. Gratitude.  What really is gratitude? I speak about it all the time. I share with students, clients, and colleagues - gratitude is the foundation of an Abundance Mindset and living a joyful life.  But why?  What is really happening with a gratitude grounded life?  Simply put, gratitude is the practice of appreciating what one has. On the next level it is the practice of appreciation for what one has, what one is given, and what one has lost.  But it is more than that. It is a practice in being aware. To appreciate what one has - one must be first aware of what they have.  To appreciate what one is given, one must be aware that they are being given things.  And to appreciate and hold gratitude for what has been taken away or lost - one must have an even greater awareness of cause & effect and other subtle hermetic universal principles at work - so you can see the quote, unquote “loss” for what it truly is. So if one is actually grateful, and truly holds appreciation for everything in their life (even the unpleasant stuff), then you are in a place of high vibrational awareness, clarity and discernment.  Holding true sight and acknowledgement of what is going on around you and the ability to access wisdom and discern what is actually happening at any given time.   So, in short, gratitude = awareness.  Awareness = discernment. Discernment = wisdom. Wisdom = Discernment.  Discernment = Awareness. Awareness = gratitude. And thus, we have a positive thought cycle occurring which allows us to live a joyful abundant life in flow with the universe even if our circumstances are filled with opportunity and challenge.  In fact, we are more likely to seek opportunities and challenges because we have awareness, because we know that those difficult things we face are the fertilizer for the joy we grow.   A joyful life is not one without difficulties or sorrow.  We all experience loss and grief in life because life ends. We lose loved ones to death. This is the only certainty in life. That this physical life ends. And along the way in our life we have people we love, and they grow old and die, or they are young and die from illness or tragedy.  These are huge losses.  But we continue.  And those of us who learn in life how to continue and thrive are those who realize and are aware that this cycle in the physical body is not about learning how to survive - because that is the one impossible task. None of us get out alive. This experience in the physical body is about learning how to live and to see the glory that is everything we are given, everything we have, and everything we experience—even the losses. Jesus said to his disciples when you can truly SEE, then you will enter the kingdom of heaven. He was talking about discernment and gratitude. True awareness. When you can truly see what life offers you are capable of gratitude, and when you have awareness, gratitude and discernment - you enter the kingdom of heaven—a joyful life. What is more heavenly than to be able to look at a shit storm in your life and say Thank You Universe for this opportunity. I am so grateful I had this experience.  I've been reflecting on gratitude all month. At the end of August I had the opportunity to be faculty for an attorney retreat and intensive where we engaged in some serious learning about different life insurance vehicles and annuities interspersed with meditation, personal development, and fun outdoor activities.We pushed ourselves out of our comfort zones in order to learn and shift ourselves and our practices for the sake of being better advisors to our clients.  For me, I was also there holding a container for everyone to meditate and grow within, while keeping the focus on gratitude. Because with gratitude we can learn better, we can accept change better, we can live better.  It is an essential element to anyone's life but especially for times of change, growth, and obstacles. And in order to change how one does something, or accept and adapt to a forced change we have to expend energy - we have to move out of the groove we have been in to shift into a new one.  No more autopilot.  Time to expend effort little by little every day until we get to the new phase of our becoming.  Gratitude helps us with this because when we start with awareness and recognition of everything we have in our environment to support us (even if it is just out own wits), and we see just how good it is, then we do not have to expend energy worrying about the lack and attracting more lack, we aren't running away from anything, we are moving towards something. And if that which we focus on expands it continues in the positive manifestation zone and we manifest that which we desire to bring about, versus that which we are trying to leave behind.  As an attorney, I find it exceptionally important to always be finding ways to hold gratitude and create containers for my clients that allow them to move toward things. Lawyers in a traditional sense are called upon only when there is a problem. We are the solvers. Or the ones that must help people through an unpleasant situation, or we are the ones causing the unpleasant situation because we manage litigation in a win-lose system. Winning in the law is determined by whether or not the proper procedure is followed - which for the average person is not winning. People want wrongs righted, justice served - but the law cannot really provide that - legal “justice” is not moral justice or God's justice - is simply checking all the boxes in the proper order and following the proper rules.  What the law can provide however, are strong containers of prevention and protection to ensure to the best of our ability that bad things don't happen, and worse things don't happen when bad things do occur (especially in the case of dying). But for me that isn't enough either - I don't want to just prevent something, I want to create containers for my clients that also grow in abundance alongside providing protection.  And what I learned in my attorney summer camp experience in August was the missing piece on how to use planning to build actual abundance and wealth for families. A true abundance manifestation goal versus just the mindset of planning with the end in mind and using that to expand on opportunities through prevention and protection planning. Now my understanding of life insurance, its strategic use in retirement planning, saving plans and investment, as well as the access to an extremely knowledgeable team of resources that I can consult with to guide my clients, has opened up a huge new gallery of wealth building containers that every family can take advantage of. And it gives me great joy to be able to offer a direction that is truly an Abundance building methodology. As I write this it is Fall Equinox.  Mabon in the Wiccan calendar.  A day of gratitude and appreciation, bringing balance into our lives as we harvest the fruits of our efforts and give thanks for them.  This autumn I am holding immense gratitude for my new partner in life and everything he has brought into my life, as well as everything he has given me, and alongside this relationship those things which have been lost. I hold gratitude for all of it - and for all of the growth I've experienced as a result of being in a real relationship with someone willing to do the work next to me. It's not all roses and sunbeams, and his health is far from good, but I wouldn't trade this time to be in something else with someone else. I am beyond grateful for the opportunity to experience something so real with someone so willing & capable of being themself with me. This relationship that brings me such great joy also reminds me of the short and preciousness of life. I've never been one to sit by the wayside and not squeeze the marrow out of life—but since Covid I have to admit that all I've done is work and fit my relationships in inbetween. When sitting next to my partner and knowing that with his particular health challenges, that our life together is more likely to be truncated than not - it adds an urgency to living. Death is a reality for everyone, and I spend a lot of my time reminding people of that because I am an estate planning attorney - but when it is on your own doorway - it is no longer a philosophical conversation. It is happening. And this is where gratitude is my foundation now, more than ever. The kind of appreciation that keeps me in full awareness so that I can truly see, discern, and live in the kingdom of heaven right now in this physical body enjoying my life in the present moment, for what it is. Jesus said Come to know what is in front of you, and that which is hidden from you will become clear to you. This is gratitude. Clarity. Awareness. Discernment. Recognition. “Whoever has (something) in his hand, (something more) will be given to him.  And whoever has nothing, even the little he has will be taken from him.”  So, your homework this month is to determine what you have through the practice of gratitude. Build your foundation to live a joyful life by creating and cultivating your garden of appreciation for every aspect of your life - even the hard parts.   

DianeKazer.com/VIP DianeKazer.com/CALL I'm back from a whirlwind trip to the West Coast and WOW do I have some updates that you're going to want to hear (and see!) all about. And, since today is Warrior Wednesday, there's no better day to share these huge insights with YOU, my warrior crew. Since ya'll are my Freedom Family and I know you learn a lot from the lessons I learn in my own life and with patients, family, friends, pets…this trip was full of all sorts of them I plan to REALLY unleash to warn, help and guide! Join me live tomorrow for our CHI Podcast at 10am PT / 1pm ET and learn ALL the details on the transformational events and moments I experienced this past week. I'm talking: SURGERY: Going under the knife…again…Really? MENOPAUSE AT AGE 45? - are BioIdentical Hormones really the only answer? Some big warnings for you guys on ‘Regenerative Spas' opening up across the country…. 2024 UPDATE: Dr Diane's advanced AND foundational personal protocol for cleansing, killing parasites, boosting immunity and beauty building naturally AND regeneratively REDEFINING DEATH: The significance of my grandmothers dying & Healing Ancestral Trauma BANK WARNINGS & where to consider investing / protecting your wealth THE POWER OF HO'OPONOPONO & the Freedom in Forgiveness (how I rekindled a damaged friendship that broke down during Covid…I know this will help a LOT of you) LIVING IN HARMONY WITH PARASITES?: The Moon cycle and why the lunar and solar eclipses are so powerful for parasite cleansing + how to do it right!

What is our relationship to the land, to its other-than-human inhabitants, and to the rest of humanity? These are fundamental questions for thinking through how we can transform ourselves in ways that allow a multiplicity of ecologies and human communities to thrive alongside one another. And these questions are not just fundamental to us as individuals—they are essential to how we view our cultures, traditions, institutions, and ways of knowing.Layel Camargo lives at the vibrant intersection of ecological justice, queer liberation, and indigenous culture—a cultural space that offers a distinctive vantage point on how our societies work, while holding enormous potential to both see and reorient our relationships to the land and to one another.Layel Camargo is an organizer and artist who advocates for the better health of the planet and its people by restoring land, healing communities, and promoting low-waste and low-impact lifestyles. Layel is a transgender and gender non-conforming person who is an indigenous descendant of the Yaqui and Mayo tribes of the Sonoran Desert.I met Layel at a climate storytelling retreat in New York City in 2019, where I became a huge fan of their work and of their way of being in the world.Layel is a founder of the Shelterwood Collective, a Black, Indigenous, and LGBTQ-led community forest and retreat center, healing people and ecosystems through active stewardship and community engagement.Our conversation explores the idea of culture as strategy in confronting the climate crisis, diving into Layel's work in video, podcasting, and poetry and the origins of their approach to this work of healing people and planet.You can listen on Substack, Apple Podcasts, and other podcast platforms.Please rate, review, and share to help us spread the word!Layel CamargoLayel Camargo is a cultural strategist, land steward, filmmaker, artist, and a descendant of the Yaqui tribe and Mayo tribes of the Sonoran Desert. Layel is also transgender and non-binary. They graduated from UC Santa Cruz with dual degrees in Feminist Studies and Legal Studies. Layel was the Impact Producer for “The North Pole Show” Season Two. They currently produce and host ‘Did We Go Too Far' in conjunction with Movement Generation. Alongside Favianna Rodriguez and at the Center for Cultural Power, they created ‘Climate Woke,' a national campaign to center BIPOC voices in climate justice. Wanting to shape a new world, they co-founded ‘Shelterwood Collective'. The collective is a land-based organization that teaches land stewardship, fosters inventive ideation, and encourages healing for long-term survival. Layel was a Transformative Justice practitioner for 6 years and still looks to achieve change to the carceral system in all of their work. Most recently, Layel was named on the Grist 2020 Fixers List, and named in the 2019 Yerba Buena Center of the Arts list of ‘People to Watch Out For.'Quotation Read by Layel Camargo“You wanna fly, you got to give up the s**t that weighs you down.” - Toni Morrison, Song of SolomonRecommended Readings & MediaTranscriptIntroJohn Fiege  What is our relationship to the land, to its other-than-human inhabitants, and to the rest of humanity? These are fundamental questions for thinking through how we can transform ourselves in ways that allow a multiplicity of ecologies and human communities to thrive alongside one another. And these questions are not just fundamental to us as individuals—they are essential to how we view our cultures, traditions, institutions, and ways of knowing.Layel Camargo lives at the vibrant intersection of ecological justice, queer liberation, and indigenous culture—a cultural space that offers a distinctive vantage point on how our societies work while holding enormous potential to both see and reorient our relationships to the land and to one another.And besides that, Layel is hilarious.Layel Camargo My passion for humor has come from has been maintained by a lot of data and information that I've gotten around just the importance of people being able to process things through laughter. And that the climate crisis is nothing to make mockery and or to laugh, there's this is very serious. The ways in which our species is kind of being at threat of extinction, and right before our eyes. But I think that as humans, we're so complex and layered, and we're so beautiful in the sense that we get to feel so intensely, and feeling is what motivates us to take action. And laughter helps you process so much data quicker, it helps you be able to take something in, embrace it, release, and then have it make an impression.John Fiege  I'm John Fiege, and this is Chrysalis.Layel Camargo is an organizer and artist who advocates for the better health of the planet and its people by restoring land, healing communities, and promoting low-waste, low-impact lifestyles. Layel is a transgender and gender non-conforming person who is an indigenous descendant of the Yaqui and Mayo tribes of the Sonoran Desert.I met Layel at a climate storytelling retreat in New York City in 2019, where I became a huge fan of their work and of their way of being in the world.Layel is a founder of the Shelterwood Collective, a Black, Indigenous, and LGBTQ-led community forest and retreat center, healing people and ecosystems through active stewardship and community engagement.Our conversation explores the idea of culture as strategy in confronting the climate crisis, diving into Layel's work in video, podcasting, and poetry and the origins of their approach to this work of healing people and planet.Here is Layel Camargo.ConversationJohn FiegeHow you doing?Layel Camargo I'm doing pretty good. How are you doing?John Fiege I'm doing well. I've got this thing in my throat. I, so I'm going to be drinking a lot of tea. And I might have to have a bathroom break. Know, I have forgotten to take my allergy medicine. And here we are. Great. Yeah. So can you start out by telling me where you grew up? And how you viewed your relationship to the rest of nature when you were a kid?Layel Camargo Yeah. Um, I can start off by Yeah. talking a little bit about where I grew up. Yeah, so I grew up on the Mexican border between Tijuana and San Diego. And my upbringing was in this very highly dense migrant community from Latinx to Philippines, because of the proximity to the military base. It was very military towns, pretty much the professions. They're like you're either work for Homeland Security, the military or police. And I didn't really notice what my upbringing was like till I left. But I grew up crossing the border back and forth. My grandmother migrated from the Sonoran Desert, to Tijuana. And that's basically where my mother was born. And she grew. She went to high school in San Diego, which is why I can say I'm an American citizen, but I'm a descendant of the Maya or the uremic tribes, my grandmother said, and then my grandfather said, The yucky tribes of the Sonoran Desert so I think for me, my connection ecologically was like the ocean Because I grew up in a beach city, and then it was also the desert, because of all the stories and my grandmother's connection to sanada. So high, I never felt like I was at home because as a queer person paid never really fit into the conservative nature of San Diego due to how militarized it is, and all this stuff. But it was through a drive, which I took from Northern California, down to Sonora, where my grandmother's family lives, when I drove through the saguaros and Arizona that I remember seeing the Saguaro forests and just like needing to pull over and just like, take them in. And I had this a visceral feeling that I don't think I've ever had before of just like being home. And I think this, this experience was like in 2016 2017. And that's when I realized that, in theory, I was a climate activist, I cared about the planet. But it wasn't until that moment that I was like, oh, what I'm actually doing is like actually fighting for us to return to be in better relationship with the planet. And this is where I belong, this is my source of my route, these trees and this desert. So because of that, and growing up in proximity to the beach, water conservation has always been an area of like passion for me and caring about the ocean, which pushed me to a practice of lowering my plastic consumption and being more mindful of oil consumption. And the desert has always been a source of like grounding in regards to like place and knowing that I come from the earth. So it's kind of like I was gonna say, it's kind of like, I'm from a lot of places, I moved to Northern California in 2006. So I love the forest. But nothing speaks to my heart, like the beach in the desert.John Fiege Well, they have sand in common. Is there? Is there a tension between the ocean pulling you in the desert pulling you or is it? Is it a beautiful harmony?Layel Camargo It's a bit of a tension. But I would say that in my body, it feels the same. They both dehydrate me and over, over like it's just a lot of heat, typically. So yeah, that it's different for Northern California beaches, because they're a little bit more Rocky and more cold. You have to wear more layers. Right? definitely like to where I grew up, it's it is warm, the sandy ness. That's a great connection, I definitely need to make that a little bit more concrete.TotallyJohn Fiege cool. Well, can you tell me more about the path you took from the neighborhood where you grew up in San Diego, to studying at UC Santa Cruz and what that experience was like for you?Layel Camargo Yeah, I, I went. So I grew up in a home where there was a lot of violence, which is very common in a lot of migrant-specific and indigenous communities. And I kind of came into my teenage years, like really realizing that I was different, but I didn't know how when it kind of got summarized in college around my queerness my sexuality and my gender, but just feeling this need of like needing to leave. It just didn't make sense for me to be there. And with that being said, I had a wonderful community. I still have quite a few friends in San Diego that I keep in touch with my sisters live there. And I was actually just started last weekend. So I, when I was in San Diego, I think a lot of my trauma responses of like, just ignore what doesn't make sense and just keep moving forward was how I kind of functioned. And that race. And I loved it, I succeeded at it. I've actually realized that I'm a performance artist because of that upbringing. Like I, you know, was captain of the water polo team. I was president of my senior class, I was featured in newspapers for my swimming. I was a competitive swimmer for 10 years. I I did, I did a you know, a good job. I had advanced placement classes and honors classes and I was well rounded but in the inside, I just didn't feel like I belonged. So I picked UC Santa Cruz to go to college because it was the farthest University and the University of California system that had accepted me. And they went and I didn't know what I was getting myself into. I visited the campus like two to three weeks before I had to actually be there to live on campus. Bass. And when my dad drove me, drove me up with my whole family drove me up and they left me they were like, are you sure you want to say I'm like, I got this, like, it was all redwoods. So it was definitely like, we went down to the local store. And it was like all these like hippie dreadlock, folks. And I was like, I don't even know what I got myself into. But I'm getting this degree, so we're good. And it was a big culture shock, I think for a lot of black and brown and indigenous youth when they have to leave their communities to attend. What is like better economic opportunities outside of them it is it's, it's more than just having to adjust, it's having to really like, Oh, I had to let go of everything I knew. And in order for me to take the most out of college, and I was fortunate enough that I had a container a university is like a container for young folks that I wasn't having to leave for work or opportunities. And so I fully immersed myself, and it allowed me to be able to identify myself sexually and through my gender, and a gave me solace, when you know, my family rejected me for coming out. And I think that I'm so fortunate that I had that experience. And then I also was able to gain double bachelor's when feminist studies and legal studies which allowed me to have some upward mobility that my family hadn't had, traditionally I was, I am the first person in my whole family to attend a four year university after high school. So I'm definitely very grateful that that path took me there. And at this point, I feel like it was not only good for me, but it was good for my whole family for me to have taken that journey.John Fiege And did you come out to them? In college or before college?Layel Camargo in college? Yeah, I was my second year, I had my first girlfriend. And I was a Resident Advisor, always I'm always trying to be the overachiever. So I was like Resident Advisor of my college, I was like, involved in every club, I was part of the dance team. And, you know, my mom called me, I just decided to actually move in with my girlfriend the following quarter. And she was like, What are you doing? I was like, Oh, my girlfriend's house. And she was like, why do you have to tell me those things. And I'm just like, because I'm not gonna lie to you. And she was like, I know, you're gay, but I just don't need you to rub it in my face. And I was like, then I guess we can't talk. And so we didn't talk for three months. And then she called me It's, it's, it's hard, you know, like, going to college is hard, especially when I went to very marginalized public schools before that. So I was struggling academically. And my solace was, like, being involved on campus, like to meet some social needs. And I was in, I was in a retention program for black and brown youth from urban communities. So that helped a lot. But I, I, my mom kind of rupturing that, really. I didn't realize what the impact was until probably a quarter the quarter into after that. And she called me three months later, and was like, so are you not gonna talk to me? And I was like, you're the one that doesn't talk to me. And she was like, well, let's just let's just try to make this work. And so we, you know, it took probably five to six years for my family to kind of fully integrate my, you know, my, my lifestyle as they, as they call it. The magic word of magic word. Yeah.John Fiege Yeah, wow. Well, you know, that's just what you need, right in the middle of college trying to adapt to, you know, crazy new culture and world is for your family to reject you.Layel Camargo Yeah, yeah. It's definitely one of those things that like a lot of queer LGBTQ folks. I, I feel like it's so normalized to us, right? And it's just like, well, when you come up, just expect to lose everything. And I think it is it now until I'm like, in my 30s, that I realized how painful that is, and how, like, it's just like, you know, one of the core things I think, as a human species is to know that you belong somewhere. And if you don't belong at home, then where do you belong? And I think for many of us, we've had to go through that unconsciously, without really thinking through that we're seeking to belong. And this theme of belonging has been something that's been coming up as I'm I navigate like, my professional career now is that like, I really do want people to feel like they belong somewhere. And the only thing I feel like makes sense as we all belong to the planet. We all belong to the same descendants and how we got here as a species and that I think that's being rejected from my family allowed me to be like weird do I belong? And so I fortunate that I had a best friend who was also queer. I had my queer community I had student governments and students social organizing. And then when I graduated, I was like, wait, like, Where else do I belong? So I went to my natural habitats like to the beach, and I picked up surfing again and scuba diving. And then it was like, Oh, I actually like I belong to the earth. Like, that's where I belong.John Fiege That's beautiful. Yeah. I love that. Oh, I am hearing some background noise.Layel Camargo Is it audio? Or is it just like,John Fiege people laughing?Layel Camargo It's my partner's on an Akai here, I'm going to shoot her a quick text. She like gets really loud because she gets so excited. Just going to share a quick text.John Fiege So before coming to climate justice work, you worked as an organizer with the Bay Area transformative justice collective. Can you tell me how your work in transformative justice informed your understanding of the climate crisis and how you approach ecological concerns?Layel Camargo Yeah, so I I organized with transformative justice for about six years. And then I you know, for folks who don't know, transformative justice is an alternative response model to violence, harm and hurt. And so similar to restorative justice, which works with the carceral system, so police, judicial systems, etc. to reform in order to help alleviate some of the biases that exists in the systems, transformative justice, as there's those systems actually don't serve certain communities like migrants, folks like that are trans, just the way that those systems just inherently violate certain people who are not included in our society fairly, was like, transparent justice exists to serve folks who cannot access or choose not to access or use the carceral system. So if you will, if you believe in defunding the police, and let's say you're sexually assaulted, you're probably not going to call the police for a rape kit, because there's probably ways that you've experienced those systems as harmful or violent. So when I started organizing were transferred to justice the spoke to me as somebody who had just come out as trans, somebody who grew up in a mixed status family, have relatives who have been deported. And I realized, like, Oh, it's actually worth investing in alternative models, besides the police. In order for us to get our needs met when crisises do happen, because they happen to all of us. And I was in it for six years, you know, we had built up, I had built a great capacity to work with people who had caused harm people who are caused domestic violence, sexual assaults and transforming their behavior and working towards reparation of relationships and or just like helping victims be able to move on after something like that happens. And it's it wasn't an easy task. And what we would come back to is we would spend like the first front of the months, trying to make sure that people's basic needs were met in order for them to slow down enough to process what had just happened. And basic needs included food included shelter, if they lived near, you know, a toxic site, what was infringing on their health, making sure that they had access to health coverage or health benefits. And that was about 60% of what we're doing was making sure that we could get the basics kind of stable so that they could jump into really honoring what it was a justice look like for them. And in doing this a handful of times, not too many, I will say I didn't think thankfully, we had a team. And so I did wasn't always having to handle everything. And we, the experiences that I did have, I was like, man, if people just had, like, a healthy environment where having to fight for housing wasn't a thing. Like we could just actually say, this is where I was born, this is where I belong, and I'm in relationship with the land. And that's how I feed myself, I clothe myself, like all these things that are kind of like indigenous traditional ways, then people could actually solve a lot of their crisis. He's in the moment without having it to be delayed years or having to rely on for it to get outsourced through the carceral system in order for them to feel like they get a minuscule amount of justice. And so I started to just be more cognizant of the way that we interact with the planet and how are everything from our legal structures to our economic structures are just completely devastating. Our environment that have led for us not to have good air quality for us not to have good clean water for us not to feel like we've belong to the earth that is right beneath us that we like, are in relationship with, with the rest of you know, most of our lives. And I, at the time I was living in West Oakland and I had just looked into the air quality report in the area I lived in, and I had the worst air quality in the whole Bay Area. And I started noticing my dog started developing like little spots on her skin, I started having like a lot of chronic coughing. And I was looking at how much money I was making. And so at the time, I was doing a lot of our pop ups, I was really passionate about zero waste, I cared about veganism, a lot of it was through the planet, and it just slowly started shifting away from Yes, I care about how we respond to violence and harm and all of that. And I want us to have alternatives that meet the needs of folks who fall through the waistline of certain systems. And at the same time, we don't even have clean water to come home to to drink when something violent happens, like we have to go buy it from, you know, a grocery store. Most of us don't even test our tap water anymore, because it's just consistently, we just grew up thinking that it doesn't, it's dirty, it's gross, it's non potable, so Right, right. I think at that moment, my heart just completely was like, I want to dive into this work 100% I want to fight for people to have clean air, like if you can't breathe, then you can't, you can't even do a lot, a lot of things. And so many black and brown people who grew up in rural communities have high rates of asthma have like low life expectancy because of air pollution, to you know, the logistics industry etc. And I just kind of fell in with all my heart in like, if I'm, if I'm against plastic put which at the time I was, like vegan for the planet and vegan for my health. And I was also really passionate about reducing plastic use. And I was like, if these are two things that I care about, I want to do it at a larger scale. So it meant that I had to really make those connections of if I want to end gender based violence, if I want to end large forms of violence, I have to start with the one common thing we have that we're constantly extracting and violating, which is the earth. And I think that that led me towards climate justice, because that is the most critical environmental crisis that we're in at this moment.John Fiege So what is the climate crisis? What what what causes is how do you how do you think about culture as a source of power and strategy for climate crisis?Layel Camargo Yeah, I mean, I this is this is really, you know, this, that this is what I do for my life is I spent the last 7 to 8 years really strategizing around what are the cultural shifts that are needed in order for us to be able to be in right relationship with the planet where things like the climate crisis are not happening, so that we can have an economic system and a political system that is serves the planet and the needs of our of us living and thriving, not surviving, which is I think, what we're stuck in as a global society now. And the, we have like quite a few things to kind of look at historically. And I think that there is a dominance of, which is we now know, it is like white supremacy, which is the idea that one group of human is like better than another group of human, and that because of that, everybody else needs to conform to the languages, the culture, the food, the clothes, the housing structures, that are pervasive, and that in, you know, the Euro centric way of living, and that has created a monoculture that is now spread at a global scale. And it's even because it's an economic sister in their economic system. Now we have global stock markets. Now we have the extraction at a global scale, for the sourcing of consumer goods that are all homogenous, and there. There's just one kind of how we do things. And I think the crisis that we're in is the ways that human have removed ourselves from our natural biodiversity relationships with our ecological systems. And then as removing ourselves we have are allowed for the rupture of a relationship that is very needed, which is if we're not integrated into the trees that are natural in our environment into trimming certain invasive species and supporting other biodiverse relationships around us, then we're crippling the ability of the soil to be healthy of the air to have the most amount of oxygen Have you Now we know that we need to be trapping carbon at such high rates. And I think that with a crisis that we're in is that we've allowed and have fallen victims to white supremacy, which was facilitated by colonization, that I, you know, that dominance of one group of people in the way of existing, and I think that's where we're at. I mean, if you look at the kelp forests, the kelp forest needs the otters, they need the, the sea urchins. But when you remove the otters and the sea urchins, you know, are not being preyed upon at a normal scale. And that's, you know, we're connecting it to white supremacy, let's assume that the sea urchins are like the dominant and because they're, they're the ones that ruled the kelp species are starting to be eradicated, and some of them are becoming a threat of extinction. And without a healthy kelp forests, you don't have healthy oxygen and maintenance of the acidification in the ocean, which, you know, couple that with global warming, and you basically have the rapid eradication of so many other natural ecosystems in the ocean that we need to survive. And so when you have one species dominating over another, it leads towards a crisis. So I think we're in a imbalance of relationships because of, of white supremacy. And that's what's causing the climate crisis we have. We have a monoculture. And so just as you look at mono cropping, as you look at anything that eradicates the health of the soil, because it doesn't have the reciprocal relationships that it needs from other crops, and are the resting in order for the soil to be healthy. This might not be speaking to everybody who's listening. But it makes sense that like, Yeah, definitely. The environment crisis is a symptom of Yes. Oh, the climate crisis is a symptom of a larger systemic problem.John Fiege Yeah. And in so many ways, white supremacy was created by colonialism, like, white supremacy is the cultural system that in some ways had to emerge to justify the political and economic brutality of colonialism. You know, it was a it was it was a way of organizing and understanding the world that justified these terrible things that were happening. And they're so it goes so much hand in hand.Layel Camargo Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I could talk about this for hours, because there's just so many ways in which we can break it down to the minute level. And then there's so many ways that we can think about solutions. And a lot of my my work and my passion is really bringing as much power as I can to black, indigenous and people of color. Because the retention of culture, language, and different ways of engaging with the world, everything from how we grow our food to how we dress and what we celebrate. And where we honor is what's going to help us be more resilient towards the impending and the realism of what the climate crisis means to a lot of our communities.John Fiege Yeah, totally. Yeah. And you're you're living and working at this really interesting intersection between ecological justice, queer liberation and indigenous culture. Can Can you talk a bit about the intersections of your identity and cultural background and their importance to you and how you orient yourself to this work?Layel Camargo Yeah, definitely. So as I mentioned, I'm a descendant of the Yaki and the Mio tribes in the Sonoran Desert. And I didn't really realize how much this matter to me, I think till about like five to six years ago, because I grew up because of the borders. Technically, I'm Mexican descent, and Mexican American salesperson in this country. But the Mexican government is similar to what we're talking about white supremacy was created by European settlers and, and a hybrid of mixture of stealing of indigenous cultures. And there are so many subgroups of different indigenous cultures. And my heritage is that both my grandfather and my grandmother's tribe as they were nomadic, and they used to migrate up and down the Sonoran Desert, before the border was there from seasonally for survival. And there's so many ways that like food that we eat, how we dress, how we talk that I didn't realize like, Oh, that makes me so much more than just Mexican American. It makes me more than just Latinx. And I think my background and being in such close proximity to immigration and the necessity of immigration or to survive because my grandmother came to Tijuana because it was industrialized and she needed work. And so when they migrated, they like left everything behind. And they never went back. Like, I think so many people leave their home, thinking that they're going to go back and they don't, their children are born in different places. And eventually, that led me to be born in a different country. And so because of that background, I am so keen to issues around native sovereignty and land back here in the United States is like the retention of keeping people in the place of their origin is a climate solution. It's a way of keeping that ancestral knowledge in the place that is needed. I mean, here in Northern California, we look at the wildfire crisis, and it's due to climate change. And it's also due to the lack of forest management, that our indigenous relatives that are native to that area have been robbed of the opportunity to maintain those forests at the scale, which is needed in order to adapt and prepare for wildfires. Yeah,John Fiege yeah, with with the prescribed burning, and all that maintenance that used to happen. That was invisible in so many ways to the European colonists, they didn't even understand that that was going on, or how it worked.Layel Camargo Yeah, and I feel like, you know, it goes back to the monoculture. And I think, because I have indigenous ancestry, because I understand the nature of needing to migrate. And the realities of migrant experience, I think I feel so passionate about keeping people in their place of origin as much as possible, and allowing for people to move freely when they have to. And I think as as the climate crisis gets worse, I started to realize just what a disservice we have made by instilling borders by having governments that have been so gatekeeping and operating off of scarcity, that we've kind of mandated a world where people can move freely people, and people have to leave their place of origin. And that these two paradox that we exist in, is creating the dehumanization of a group of people that if you cannot sustain yourself in your place of origin, because of global extraction, by the way, because of environmental degradation and the economic viability of your area, and how that creates wars and mass extraction, that that is why people migrate. But yet those same people who are creating those systems that make it difficult for you to stay in your place of origin have also created borders to not let you move freely. That paradox to me is also part of this climate crisis as because many of us are going to have to leave john, at some point, there's going to be floods, there's going to be hot water, we're experiencing a drought prices in California, I'm actually living between northern California and Southern California already. And a lot of it is because of the wildfires and my family's down here. And my family's at threat of sea level rise by living in San Diego, which San Diego filed a lawsuit against Exxon and Chevron. And I think one or two other oil companies is we're all we're all existing now in this global climate crisis, that it's not quite in our face every day, but we feel it seasonally now, so we're gonna have to be able to move. Right? So yeah, and last to say is like similar to my cultures I have I lived with an end an endocrine illness. And so air pollution is something that could severely impede my ability to reproduce my ability to function. At this point, I spend about four to five days a month in bed, working from bed, and I'm fortunate enough that I get to work remotely. But for a lot of people, we're going to see more and more ways in which the mass destruction of the planet which has led to the climate crisis is how we become to adopt ways of having different abilities or not being able to live our day to day function. So yeah, the intersecting points are just, they're overwhelming. And I think a lot of us are starting to feel that more as things start to kind of get a little worse.John Fiege Right, right. Yeah, I was talking to, to my partner the other day, she was she was talking to a fellow activist about this idea of ableism. And how, you know, so much of the discourse around it is you know, what are your abilities and, and this, this person was talking about how it it's how unstable that is. Like you can be able bodied today and tomorrow, you can be not able bodied in the same way. Because of, you know, like you say the changing air quality or something happens, or you just you're getting old, or you get sick. And it's one of those things that we've so ignored as a culture of what, what ableism really means about our assumptions about the world.Layel Camargo And like the economic viability and how our economic system is just so dependent on us being fully productive 24 seven, which I made a video on this called The Big Sea, which talks about the intersecting points of labor and how the labor crisis is actually the root of our climate crisis. Because if we can have people have a bigger imagination around how they can use their bodies, to serve their own needs, instead of serving the needs of corporate interests, how that would actually alleviate a lot of pressure on the planet. And that that would potentially lead to our most successful outcomes in regards to the climate crisis.John Fiege Yeah, totally, totally. Well, can you tell me about decolonizing conservation in the environmental movement and what that looks like to you?Layel Camargo Yeah, so I, I started during the beginning of the pandemic, I started a nonprofit called shelterwood collective, which is black and brown and indigenous queer folks who are aiming to steward land at the time, I was aiming to sort of land a month ago, we acquired a 900 acre camp in cassada, California, and Northern California and our team is about conservation efforts, specifically with forest resiliency against wildfires. Taking Western Western practices of conservation, mixing them with indigenous practices that are similarly to conservation. And I feel like when we think about conservation efforts, a lot of them have been dictated by European ways of thinking through conserving natural environments, which a lot of it is like humans are bad, nature must be left uncared for. And this does such a disservice because our indigenous ancestors knew that in order for a forest to be thriving, we needed to be in relationship with it, we needed to monitor monitor it, if there was a fun guy or a virus that was spreading their disease, that we could actually help it, he'll help trees, he'll help it spread less, if there was fires that were coming that we could trim, and tend and do controlled burns, if there was, you know, sucks anything happening where a species was struggling, that we could help support its growth and its population by you know, hunting its predators. And so I think that, that is the challenge between indigenous conservation efforts are traditional ways of just being in relationship with the natural environment and conservation is the western conservation is that we have been so removed from what it means to protect water systems, what it means to protect forests, that now we have a crisis of mismanagement we have and that more and more countries are adopting European Western perspectives because of the dominance that white supremacy has instilled that there are certain group of people that know more than we do. And that's just that's created, at least for me feels very heavy on when it comes to wildfires. There is certain areas in Northern California where there have been residential communities that have been built on wildfire lines that we know now, indigenous people knew that like every 30 years, for every 50 years, there would be a wildfire that would run through that area. And now that we're not that it's getting hotter, the gap of that time is getting shortened. And also that we're realizing that the years, hundreds of years of mismanagement, and lack of tending has led to also these extreme wildfires, that's now causing casualties outside of wildlife. And I feel like conservation needs to evolve. I think that there needs to be more understanding around the harm that Western conservation has done to not only the ecosystems but to the people who have traditionally been keeping those ecosystems. And I do feel like it's like it's evolving. I just think that it's not evolving as fast as we need. And unfortunately, with the climate climate crisis, we're gonna have to really come to recognize what do we need to move really fast on on what can wait because it just feels like Everything's urgent, we need to save the oceans as much as we need to save the forest as much as we need to Save the Redwoods as much as we need to take the rain forests and it just feels like and and that is like the natural environment, then we have like the growing list of extinction, threats of extinction for certain animals. And I think that I don't know why just came to my head. And then you have people like Bill Gates who want to eradicate a whole mosquito species. So it just feels like we're gonna have to pick and choose our battles here. And I do feel like coming to reckoning around the harm that this pervasiveness in western conservation, which isn't the idea that sometimes we are harmful to, you know, our natural ecosystems isn't a bad one. Yeah, we are. But how we got here was by completely removing ourselves and not knowing how to take care of those ecosystems, had we been in a relationship with them for the last 100 years, maybe we wouldn't be so wasteful, maybe we would have caught air pollution sooner than then our body is telling us, hey, we don't like this, this is bad, we're gonna die sooner if you keep doing this. And I think that that is a disservice. So it's beautiful to see more forest schools popping up for young people. It's beautiful to see more conservation groups trying to bring in indigenous leaders into the conversations. But I do feel like that overall idea needs to shift. And I also think that the land back movement, which is returning national parks back to indigenous hands, is going to help alleviate some of those major tensions that do not honor that certain people have been doing this for hundreds of years. And if we don't return it in this generation, we just run the risk of losing more language, more culture and more practices that we need at a larger scale.John Fiege Yeah, in protecting ecosystems is just not a complete picture of everything that's needed. Like as you say, it's important on some level, but it's it's not it's not a whole, it's not a whole understanding of of the problem or how to address it. There reminds me I was I was just reading or rereading a bit of Robin wall kimmerer book braiding sweetgrass, and she talks, she talks about this very issue a bunch about, you know, sweet grass in particulars is something where there's this, this back and forth relationship between humans and nature. And she talks about teaching one of her University classes up here in New York, and asking them at the beginning of the semester, you know, whether people are bad for the environment, and almost everybody says yes. And we alsoLayel Camargo have this this perception of we are bad. Right?John Fiege Yeah. Yeah, this Western guilt is pervasive in that as well. Which is,Layel Camargo which is facilitated by religion? Yes, religion has a very good job of making us feel like we are horrible for everything that we have sent us that we need to repent for our whole existence as like, going from embryo to sperm is actually a sin itself. So we're born with so much already on our shoulders.John Fiege I was gonna say Catholic guilt, but I feel like at this point, it's so much broader than that. Yeah, it is. So you work with the Center for cultural power. And, and one of the main projects you've done with them is climate woke. And I'd like to start by saying how much i'd love the artwork of the logo. It says climate woke. And it's in, in the style of this fabulous flashback 1980s airbrushed t shirts, with, you know, rainbow colors and sparkles. And it feels like there's so much meaning embedded in the artwork. And I wondered if you could tell me about climate woke, how the project emerge, but also like how this logo artwork reflects what this project is.Layel Camargo Yeah, so we when we started thinking about what climate woke would be, we didn't know what's going to be called climate woke it was through several meetings with different community partners, different funders and other stakeholders, where we kind of discussed that we wanted a unifying symbol for all the communities that we had been meeting and we kind of landed that we wanted something to look good to represent black Dan Brown young people between the ages of 16 to 25, something that was appealing that somebody would wear with pride. And, you know, at the time, there was a lot of like, different stuff coming up around the importance of wokeness. The it wasn't used as how we use it now, which is like political correctness. It's, it's, it's not where it is now. And so we decided to kind of ride on the, the term itself climate woke, which talks about uses black vernacular very intentionally that this is a racialized issue. And we spoke with several leaders in the black community, and at the time, it felt like it made sense. And, and so we kind of quickly were like, this makes sense kind of work. We want people to wake up to a climate crisis, but also be like down and enjoy it. And that it's different than this doom and gloom narrative that we constantly see when it comes to the environment. As it is kind of depressing when you think about it. But so we wanted it to feel like inviting. And at the time, which I think was like 2017 2018. All these like 90s was like coming back. So we sat with like two or three potential designers, and we didn't really like what we saw. And then it was heavy and agile that he Guess who is kind of a co creator of this. Also, like a globally recognized artist who was like, hold on, I got this and just like hopped on her computer through some colors, did some and we were like, We love it. Like we just love it. We wanted it to be bright. We wanted it to be inviting. And I feel like we've been successful just two weeks ago actually got a text from my executive producer who works on the planet. Well, content, it was like to send a photo of like, I believe it was a young male of color about 21 or 22 years old wearing a climate woke t shirt. And she was like, do you know where that's from? And he was like, No, I have no idea. And I was like, that's how, you know, we succeeded. Because we popularize something, we made it look so good. People don't necessarily need to make the connections, but they'll be promoting our work. And I'm sure and I get so many compliments when I wear t shirts and sweaters. And so she she told him to look up the videos. And you know, she sent me the photo. And she's like, we've I think we've succeeded. And I was like, I think we succeeded, I think we have you know. But at this moment, we are considering evolving the terminology because it doesn't feel as honoring. And we definitely are very sensitive to the fact that we use black vernacular intentionally. And it's time to kind of give it back and think through like what other ways can we popularize other terms to kind of help. It's about it's about to help kind of build the community because it was about building a group of people kind of drawing in a certain community that wouldn't necessarily be about it. And I feel like that to me was like a, we did it. We did it.John Fiege Yeah, it's it's it's definitely one of those terms that the the right has co opted and really done a number on they. Yeah, they're they're good at stealing those terms and turning them on their head. And usually, honestly, as a as a weapon back the other direction. Can you turn down your volume just to hear again, just noticing when you get excited? I get excited so much. Alright, how's that? Right? Great. Yes. So in a couple of your videos, you talk about what being climate milk means to you. And you say it means one, standing up for communities of color and communities most impacted by climate change, to complicating the conversations on climate in the environment. And three, doing something about it. Can you take me through each of these and break them down a bit?Layel Camargo Yeah, so the first one is, can you repeat it again, that's the firstJohn Fiege standing up for communities of color and communities most impacted by climate change,Layel Camargo right? That's right. Yeah, I've said it so much. And we actually haven't even recorded anything because of the pandemic. So I'm like, I haven't said it in a while. Yeah, standing up for communities of color. I think that that one to me specifically spoke to that. We need black, brown and indigenous people to feel protected and seen when it comes to the climate and environmental crisis. And that's everything from activating people in positions of power to empowering the people who come from those communities to know that this is an intersectional issue. I think that the climate crisis traditionally was like a lot of visuals of melting ice caps, a lot of visuals of the polar bears and you It's interesting because as we're getting more people narrative, I feel like the, we need to get a little bit more people narrative. And we need to return those images a little bit back, because the IPCC report has just been highlighting the rapid rates in which we were losing ice. And I think that when I initially thought of this at the time, there wasn't highlights of how indigenous people were protecting the large scale biodiversity that we have on the planet. There wasn't stories of, you know, urban, black or brown youth trying to make a difference around solutions towards climate change. And so I kind of made it my purpose that climate woke represent those demographics that we that I was important for me that black, brown and indigenous people of color were at the center of the solutions. And the complicated conversations and do something about it was that I actually feel like we have a crisis of binary versus complexity in our society. And I think that how we've gotten into this climate crisis is because everything's been painted. So black and white for us, that if you want a job, you have to be harming the planet, if you want to be unemployed, then. And then like all these hippies that are fighting to save the trees, they're taking away your job, you know. So I feel like there's so many ways in which our trauma responses just look for the patterns have been used against us. And it just felt really important for me, that people feel comfortable to complicate as much as possible, where we're gonna need different angles and different ways of looking at solutions that we need to embrace experimentation, where we need to embrace failures, and we need to really let go of these ideas that technology is going to come in and save us technology is a big reason why we got into this mess. And so I think that complicating the conversation to me was about this is like, if you are black, brown, indigenous, and you want to be a part of the climate crisis, but you have no way of integrating yourself besides talking about gender oppression, go for it, look at look at the leaders in this movement, and look at how many women are fighting and protecting, you know, at a larger global scale that don't get the visibility that they deserve. So I feel like that was my aim is to really invite that complexity. And then let's do something about it is that I don't want things to get stuck on the dialog. One of the biggest failures of the United Nations when addressing these crisises is that they don't have global jurisdiction. So they cannot actually mandate and or enforce a lot of these, it's usually done through economic influence, or like if one if we can get a first world to sign on to a certain agreement, then hopefully, they'll all do it. But then who ends up in implementing it, usually it's not the United States and Europe is not the first one to do it. And yet, we are the biggest global polluters on almost every sector you can think of. And I think that the do something about it is, for me a call to action, that we can talk about this, we can try to understand carbon emissions, methane emissions, global greenhouse, carbon markets, carbon, sequestering drawdown methods, we can talk about it. But if we're not doing it, putting it to practice while integrating these other two points, which is centering communities of color, and embracing the complexity of that, then it's nothing, it's pointless. We're just we're just allowing corporations to keep exploiting the planet and governments can keep, you know, sitting back and saying that they're doing something because they're convening people without actually regulating and putting down their foot for us. So, yeah, I think it was trying to summarize just my general feelings of this movement and the ways that there's been just lack of opportunities by not centering certain other people or allowing there to be more complexity.John Fiege Yeah, there's, I find, watching how those un meetings go down. So frustrating. Yes, just, you know, Time after time. It's just maddening. I'd have a hard time working in that space.Layel Camargo Yeah, I think I was fortunate enough to take I voluntarily took like a law class at pace, Pace University, pace law University, and one of the classes was United Nations policy, and so I got to witness the sub All meetings before that big meeting where Leonardo DiCaprio came out and said that we had a climate crisis, which everybody googled what the climate crisis was, I think it was called climate change. It was like the most time climate change was googled in the history of mankind. And I was sitting in those meetings and just seeing how it really is just a lot of countries just try not to step on each other's toes, because relationships translate into the economic sector, that I'm like, wow, y'all, like legit, don't care about the people you're representing?John Fiege Yeah. Yep. Yeah, it's crazy. Well, I wanted to talk a bit about what environmental justice means to you. And I thought we could start with your video called a power to rely on. And in your crudest, you include a statistic in the video that says in the US 75% of all houses without electricity, are on Navajo land. And, and then one of the people you interview in the video with Leah, John's with a group called native renewables, says, whoever controls your water and your power controls your destiny. And that's really powerful statement. Can Can you talk a bit about your experience working on this video, and how it impacted your thinking about environmental justice?Layel Camargo Yeah, so I, I realized that I'm really passionate about renewable energy and alternatives to energy capturing, probably through working on this video. And when we were first thinking about what themes we were going to cover, that's usually how I approached most of the climate world videos as I tried to talk to a few community partners. But mostly, I just do a lot of like, cultural observation, just like what are some of the themes that feel that are kind of resonating for people outside of the sector. So what's resonating for folks outside of the environmental justice world, and, you know, land back native sovereignty is something that's been popularized, especially after the Standing Rock camp, the no dapple camp, and I was noticing that it was kind of dwindling down. But a lot of data was coming up around the fact that a lot of indigenous communities are either sitting around and or holding and protecting 80% of the global biodiversity. And so something that how I approached this video was I wanted to show the native sovereignty piece with the land back as well as my passion for alternatives to our current energy use. And what Haley Johns is somebody who was recommended to me by Jade bug guy who's also featured in the videos, a dear close, like cultural strategist, filmmaker, co conspire in the sector. And she would I had initially approached her and said, I want ndn collective, which is what she works to kind of help us think through the script. And she said, Yeah, we're down and like, we trust you, like, we know you're gonna get the story, right, but we're down. And so it was, it was very easy for us to start with that. And then when I was like, Who do I talk to? They're like, you need to talk to a hayleigh. And I was like, Alright, let's talk to a healer. And so I flew out to Arizona, just to have a scout meeting with her, which I felt like I was chasing her down, because we didn't know she was going to be in Flagstaff, or if she was going to be near Phoenix, like we didn't know. So we were flying in. And we were like, Where are you today? She's like, I'm at my mom's house. I'm with my mom at this hotel. And we're like, Alright, we're coming through. So it felt very, like family off the bat, which now she has been nominated for I forget the position, but it's the internal affairs of Indian energy, energy efforts and some sort. So she's she's doing it at a federal level now. And when I was when I was working on this video, and I had talked to her and I interviewed her as she was giving me a lot of these numbers, and I just realized that, you know, the irony of this country is just beyond what we could imagine. You have a lot of these coal mines that help fuel some of the larger energy consuming cities and in the United States, like Vegas, like la that just consume energy at such high rates that are being powered by coal mines in Navajo or near Navajo Denae reservations. And yet, I was hearing about what halos program and her efforts were just trying to get funding and or subsidies from the government in order to put solar panels on folks his house because the infrastructure doesn't exist. And she was running she's letting me know about that. cost, she's like at $75,000 per house. And then we in order to like run the lines, and that's not even including the solar panel infrastructure. And then if they can't, we can't run the lines, and we're talking about batteries. And she was breaking this all down, I'm like, that is a lot of money. We need to get you that money. And then she started just educating us more through that. So I think I went into this video just knowing that I was going to try to make those connections. But what I realized was that I was actually going in to learn myself, just how much I need to humble myself with the realities that communities who have had less to nothing in certain things, everything from food, to energy to water, have made alternatives that they are, they've already created the solutions like we found one of the elders who had put up one of the first solar panels and Hopi reservation, which I highlighted in my video, she got it 30 years ago, like I, I was flabbergasted that she had the foresight, and the way that she articulated was everything from comfort to entertainment. But at the end of the was she knew she needed power. And she runs a business, the local business won a very few on the reservation that she was passionate enough to keep alive. And so this video just showed me that like, wherever you go, where there has been disenfranchisement, that's where you will find solutions. Because a lot of people have just making do for a long time, it just hasn't been seen, it hasn't been highlighted. Those are the people that like the UN should be talking to the you know, our federal government should be listening to.John Fiege Yeah, and I actually wanted to talk to you about Janice de who's the Hopi elder that you mentioned. And, you know, in particular, how it relates to how depth and skillful you are communicating with people from a wide range of backgrounds. in you, you you use humor a lot. And in this power to rely on video, you're sitting down with Janice day. And talking about how she's one of the first people to get solar power 30 years ago. And you asked her whether the first thing she charged with solar power would be a vibrator. And that was that was that was really funny. And all of a sudden, I'm watching with anticipation, asking myself, how is this woman going to react to that question? And you seem to have such a good read on the people you're speaking with. And I was hoping you could talk a bit more about how you communicate so many, so well and so many in so many different spaces and how you consciously or unconsciously lubricate the relationships with humor.Layel Camargo Yeah, I've been I I think a lot of it is my passion for humor has come from has been maintained by a lot of data and information that I've gotten around just the importance of people being able to process things through laughter. And that the climate crisis is nothing to make mockery and or to laugh, there's this is very serious. The ways in which our species is kind of being at threat of extinction, and right before our eyes. But I think that as humans, we're so complex and layered, and we're so beautiful in the sense that we get to feel so intensely and feeling is what motivates us to take action. And laughter helps you process so much data quicker, it helps you be able to take something in, embrace it, release, and then have it make an impression that is the one line that everybody brings up with that video. So I made the impression. And I hope that people watched it and then wanted to show it to other people. And so I think that, that that knowledge has retained my passion for humor. And then like I said, You know, I grew up in an abusive home where we had to process things fairly quickly in order to be able to function in the world to go to school to go to work. And growing up in a home where there was a lot of violence. I learned how to read people very keenly everything from anticipating when something was going to happen tonight, and I speak about that pretty like nonchalantly because I think a lot of us have a lot of strategies and skills that we've developed because of our traumas and our negative experiences that we've had in the world. And I think they don't often get seen as that we'll just say like, Well, I was just really I'm just really good at reading people and we'll leave it at that and it's like, but what is your learn that from like, there have been many chronic situations where you had to be really good at reading people in order for you to like practice it so clearly in it skillfully. And so I think I honor my experience in that in order for me to do that. And then I think cultural relativity and cultural content petencies is another thing like, Janice de actually reminds me a lot of my grandmother and my grandmother was somebody who was very religious. And at the same time, I always loved pushing her buttons. I would just like try to say things to get her activated. And I knew at the end of the day, she loved me. And that was about it. I didn't have to question whether she loved me because she was upset that I asked her something and appropriately. So I think it's a combination of that. And I'm grateful that I can embody that and be able to offer it to people who are curious about climate change and and feel more invited through laughter than they would about doom and gloom or heavy statistic videos and our ways of gathering information.John Fiege Awesome. Well, another kind of video you made is called consumerism, cancelled prime. And the first shot is you waiting while the camera crew sets up the shot and you're putting items in your Amazon cart on your phone. And then the quote unquote real video begins. And and you say 80% of California's cargo goes through the Inland Empire. And then you yell along expletive that's beeped out. And you ask emphatically his climate, wrote, his climate woke about to ruin amazon prime for me. And and I love how rather than just saying Amazon, or Amazon customers are bad. You're starting by implicating yourself in this system that leads to serious environmental justice issues. And again, it's really funny. Can you talk more about the situation with Amazon and other real retailers? And and how you went about positioning yourself in this story, and using humor again, and self criticism to connect to the audience?Layel Camargo Yeah, I mean, when we first started working on this video, we explore different avenues of that opening scene, when we wanted to highlight community members, I kind of at this point, have a pretty good like tempo of what it is that I want. I want a community member I want somebody who's like academic or scientifically based, and then somebody else who kind of comes in allows her to be more of a creative flow. So we have a pretty good structure at this point of the voices that we seek, we just didn't know how we wanted to hook the audience. And we went back and forth quite a bit on this, the thing that kept coming up was amazon prime memberships are very common. Most people have them most people buy on e commerce and this is pre COVID. And I was keenly aware of that I also knew that Amazon was growing as a franchise to now own Whole Foods that were just like expanding in regards to what it is that they offer people online. And as I mentioned, I, through my passion for reduction of plastic usage and plastic consumption, and plastic waste, I understand the ways that ecommerce has really hurt the planet. So I myself am not an Amazon Prime member, I I don't actually buy online and I allow myself when needed one Amazon thing a purchase a year. And it's like kind of more of a values align thing. So in order for me to reach connecting with somebody who's kind of a little bit more normal in regards to needing to rely on buying online, is I just had to exaggerate what I think happens when you're shopping, which is you look at a lot of stuff, you add them to cart, you get really excited, and then you kind of mindlessly click Buy without knowing what's going to happen. But you're excited when it arrives, surprisingly, because maybe you bought it in the middle of the night while drinking some wine and watching some Hulu. So that's like what I was trying to embody. And then what I was really trying to highlight in this video was I wanted to invite audiences to not feel shame about what they do, like we are we've all been indoctrinated by the system through what our education has taught us. Like we have values of individualism and patriotism and all these things, because that's what we were taught in schools. And that's been used and co opted by corporations in order for us to continue exploiting other humans and the planet. And that's by no fault of our own. That's a design that's an economic model that was designed since the Great Depression. It's just the way that it's been exaggerated and has scaled so quickly is beyond our control where our governments don't even regulate it anymore at the ways in which they should be. And I think that I wanted this to feel like it's not just on you as an individual, but it's specifically if you live in Europe or in the United States. You need to know that we are The biggest consumers on the planet, we have the most economic resources. We actually, if even a fraction of the United States decided to stop shopping at Amazon, we could significantly bring that Empire down. I say Empire pretty intentionally. And we could I mean, I feel like you. And that's and how I understand economics is that all you need to do is impact 10 to 20%. of supply and demand chain in order for a whole corporation to collapse. The problem is, is that our governments always come in to aid these large corporations that are hurting us on the planet by saying that they want to maintain jobs and maintain a GDP are going stock market, which they're reliant on. So this video was meant for audiences. And for people to feel like this is not just on you. But if you live

Shownotes and Transcript We are delighted to be joined by Dr Mark Trozzi, a seasoned emergency physician, to share his insights on the ethical challenges of  the COVID-19 pandemic.  With over 30 years of experience, he recounts his transition from patient care to researching treatment amid questionable hospital protocols.  Resigning from his medical positions due to concerns over coercive vaccination practices, Dr Trozzi critiques the current medical education system for prioritizing compliance over ethics.  He advocates for a holistic health approach through lifestyle choices, introducing the "NEW START" framework.  Dr Trozzi emphasizes the importance of personal responsibility and integrity in healthcare, urging a proactive stance on well-being. Dr Mark Trozzi MD has practiced Emergency Medicine In Canada for 25 years, taught critical resuscitation and advance trauma care for over a decade, and held teaching positions in 3 Canadian medical schools. While on call in multiple emergency units when covid-19 was launched, including one designated specifically for Covid-19, he noted severe discrepancies of medical science, ethical norms and human rights, and misrepresentation of dangerous genetic injections as “safe and effective.” At the end of 2020, he walked away from his entire pre-existing career and income, sold his home, and committed himself completely to alerting the public, advancing genuine medical science despite the current climate, and supporting the drive for justice. Connect with Mark... WEBSITE           drtrozzi.org

A milestone stream that ran for 4 dang hours!A little over 4 years ago The Hornets Nest was born. Transmitting from the utility closet of a Western Australian beach house, I really had no idea what to expect from the world of online streaming as I'd paid it very little attention in the past.Due to Covid I found myself stuck in my hometown which felt all too alien after living overseas for 17 years. I'd decided to move home at the end of 2019 as I had a child on the way and a 3 year old who I wanted to grow into a full sick Aussie kid like I was. Little did I know that a few short months after that move, the world would go into lockdown and our borders would close.Fast forward to June 2020 and I had a 3 month old baby, a career in tatters, and a marriage on the rocks. I realised that for once in my life I had all my records in one place and unpacked. So amidst the most elevated stress levels I've ever experienced I turned to Twitch and constructed a extremely basic streaming setup. Some of the OG's reference 'broom cam' periodically as I quite literally taped an old webcam to a broom handle, pointed it sort of towards my turntables and hit 'go live'.If not for the community of Twitch I do not know how my life would have panned out. I fear it might have gone very differently to how it did and I owe a debt of gratitude to the platform and to the fans for keeping me connected to the world that I had previously hopped around so freely.It was a blessing and it got me through the darkest days.I am eternally grateful.We've grown, we 've lost and we've loved.Heres to you, the moisities, the bushpigs, the Nest gang. Thank you.

In 2023 my dear uncle Carl Putt and his best mate Paul Steinfort embarked on a life changing experience walking Le Puy Camino, a huge pilgrimage trail through France.I have obviously known my Uncle Carl my whole life and with a shared love of France it was wonderful to share this chat with him. I have known Paul mainly as Carl's best mate through my life (but just prior to COVID I took on the role as President of a large football club in suburban Melbourne for a number of years, with Paul having the capacity and experience to be my mentor through that time.) It was just lovely to chat with both Paul and Carl about this extraordinary experience they shared in France and I was thrilled to meet up over in Cahors, France to witness their last night.The walk they did is what's known as "Inn to Inn" walking, that is hotel to hotel. Most days they walked about 20 kms, but then as I discovered some days they walked more when they got lost! We chatted about the preparation required including training, equipment and the impact on participants' health and wellbeing. With both men being aged 75 at the time of this walk, I ascertained that taking on a challenge of this kind is not out of anyone's reach, as long as adequate medical advice is sought prior and the required steps to ensure readiness are undertaken.I loved how this experience has now spawned the idea of doing something similar with grandchildren. That experience will potentially provide memories for those grandchildren completing a similar trek now, to carry through their lives and possibly then do with their own grandchildren in the future whilst remembering the same experience with their grandfather. A wonderful ongoing family connection through the generations.Paul identified the deepness of the connection to France for our family and he was very happy to immerse in that with his friend, my Uncle Carl. This connection has brought a closeness of our extended family, and may possibly bring about more walks such as this for us all in the future.**Louise Prichard is the host of the Loulabelle's FrancoFiles podcast.**Other Loulabelle's links:FrancoFile Fix on YouTubeLoulabelle's FrancoFiles Spotify Playlist Loulabelle's FrancoFiles InstagramLoulabelle's FrancoFiles website

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I sit down with Chantell Preston, CEO of Facilities Management Group. She takes us through her journey of transforming the healthcare industry - from an unexpected start managing facilities to founding Mentis Neuro Rehabilitation. Chantell's strategic moves in positioning her company through the pandemic era offer key leadership lessons. We discuss her transition in fostering trust and respect amongst staff, vital for a positive culture, especially in difficult times. Her reflections on setbacks emphasize emotional readiness for both failures and leadership burdens. Wrapping up on a lighter note of future dreams, from travel adventures to family time, Chantell offers a well-rounded portrait of an impactful leader. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Chantell Preston shares her unexpected entry into the healthcare industry and how it led to her role in developing numerous healthcare facilities across Texas. We discuss Chantell's experience founding and successfully exiting Mentis Neuro Rehabilitation, a company focused on traumatic brain injury patients. Chantell explains her strategic decisions and leadership style transformation during the COVID-19 pandemic, emphasizing the shift from an authoritarian to a collaborative approach. We explore the importance of trust, respect, and open communication in maintaining a positive team culture, especially during challenging times. Chantell recounts the lessons learned from entrepreneurial setbacks, including the emotional toll of difficult business decisions and the significance of building strong relationships. We discuss the tactical choices made to support frontline workers and expand service lines during the COVID-19 pandemic. Chantell reflects on her evolution from a closed-off, authoritative leader to a compassionate and empathetic one, inspired by her business partner's example. We talk about the challenges and liberation of breaking societal norms as a female leader and the importance of achieving work-life integration. Chantell shares her personal dreams of travel and family time, highlighting the difficulty of balancing a busy work schedule with personal aspirations. We discuss the advice Chantell gives to young entrepreneurs, emphasizing the importance of focus, having a supportive team, and being ready to pivot when necessary. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Facilities Management Group GUESTS Chantell PrestonAbout Chantell TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode, you will meet Chantell Preston, CEO of Facilities Management Group. Chantell is a self-described risk taker who emphasizes the importance of establishing trust and respect in building a strong company culture. Chantell, I want to thank you for coming on Building Texas Business. I appreciate you taking the time. Chantell: Thanks, Chris. I appreciate you inviting me to come on. Chris: So let's just kick this off by telling us a little bit about Facilities Management Group, the company you're currently CEO of. Chantell: Sure, so Facilities Management Group. We're really a platform company. We own and operate healthcare facilities throughout Texas. Initially, when I took it on, we had a hospital in Las Vegas, but we divested that and sold that to a local system there, and so now our main facilities are here in the Texas market. Chris: Okay, and I know this isn't your first venture in the healthcare space Tell us a little bit about how you got involved or found yourself being an executive in the healthcare industry. Chantell: Sure, it's kind of an interesting story, chris. I don't think any of us know when we graduate from college where we're going to end up in life, and I can truly tell you I never thought it would be health care. So you know, straight out of school I got a great opportunity to go to work for a small company that was developing ambulatory surgery centers. Didn't know anything about ambulatory surgery centers but I knew the folks that were in the organization. So took the leap of faith and I just wanted to learn every aspect. I felt like if? How could I go out and sell things if I didn't realize or understand how they were operated? So took the opportunity to really dive into the health care and learn both the development aspect as well as the operational aspect. Best thing I ever did. From there just kind of soared, I became very niched in regards to building healthcare facilities. I've built over 65 hospitals in my career, whether they're LTACs, rehabs, full acute care hospitals, linear accelerators. So I just kind of found a niche. I really enjoyed watching something from concept to operations. However, I got to a certain point in my life I decided I didn't want to be a consultant forever. So my previous partner and I started a company called Atlantic Health Group. We were going to be a surgery center company. We realized the market was saturated at that point, so we started a company called Mentis Neuro Rehabilitation. Mentis was assisted living rehabilitation for traumatic brain injury patients. To be honest, we really didn't know much about it when we started. We built an amazing team to operate the company for us and then we realized how much need there was for traumatic brain injury patients, so we continued down that path. I continued to build facilities to generate revenue, to build Mentus, so we didn't have to raise huge capital. So we bootstrapped everything together and we took Mentus from concept to exit in 2015. Chris: Wow. Chantell: So we exited the mid-market. And then comes back to what are you going to do with your life from there? So I really stayed for about a year and realized that just my heart wasn't in it anymore. Things changed. We built such an amazing culture, so really focused on what was the next phase of my life. That's when I ended up taking over facilities management group. One of my partners that was operating the entity got ill and so I stepped up and said I'll take over, and that's when we really developed Facilities Management Group. At that point, we had a lot of individual facilities running independently of each other and we wanted to build a platform company that we could have some synergistic services across all facilities. So that was 2018. And so that was a great ride. I learned a lot. Six months after I took over, covid hit so you can only imagine what happens with the hospital industry when that happens? Chris: Yeah, I'm sure there's. We'll get into that because there has to be a lot of good stories there, but I can't help but notice that, as you told, that is, you talked about being thrown in cold, knowing nothing about the industry healthcare that is but then you found yourself evaluating opportunities for surgical centers and then the mental health, brain injury type of facilities that you mentioned. I want to talk about what type of processes did you go through, and or with your partners, to evaluate the opportunities when you're like, okay, what's next or what else can we do? What are some of the things that you found to be valuable and useful in going through that process, as well as maybe some of the things you wish you hadn't done? Chantell: Sure, Great question, chris. You know, as we all go through our career, we, you know, we try to evaluate things. Everybody looks at things very differently and you know you probably say I'm a calculated risk taker. So, again, I wanted to be able to find a path where, you know, my number one was I wanted to help people. You know, I think most of us get into health care because we have this naivety that we really, you know we can make a change in the world, and I think we do, just maybe different than what we anticipate when we go in. So I think it's really about when I would look at each of the opportunities that came up. You know, again started at a small company and I wanted to learn as much as I could, and then I got recruited from there. Once I found a niche for myself, I didn't really have to go looking for jobs. People would come to me, but then it was like, okay, I learned some hard knocks at the same time as to going to work for folks, because they throw a lot of money at you or they say, oh, we're going to create this amazing environment, and then you get in and you realize this is not really a productive place for me to be and in those situations you just try to take, learn everything you can, you know, gain as much experience and knowledge, because I look at everything as a stepping stone to the next place. So when we, you know, when we started Atlantic, it was kind of an interesting scenario because I had a ton of development partners that I had already established that I was working for as an independent consultant. I didn't really want to be a consultant forever. I wanted to build something, I wanted to have some security. So I actually talked my partner, my business partner, into leaving his organization because he had a skill set that I didn't have. So he was really more around the finance side of things, operationally, and I was really more the development aspect. And so you know, and I was really more the development aspect, and so you know, I think it's really important when people look at their careers, a everything in life is a stepping stone to the next thing. I mean, you have to look at it that way. What can I get out of this particular situation to advance my overall objectives later? Chris: Sure. Chantell: But also who you're getting in bed with and I speak a lot to entrepreneurs. It's really important to pick your partners wisely. And when you say your partners, you know I tell people it's like a marriage. Oh well, we're best friends. We're never going to, you know, get sideways with each other. Well, it is important that when you're going into a partnership, you know even a company is what's it going to look like if we got divorced? I look at everything as it's kind of like a marriage. Chris: No, no, Look, I advise clients all the time into the same thing. You know, be careful, Don't do 50-50 unless you have a good deadline provision. But it is they are. I can attest from being on the litigation side of these things. They are truly business divorces when they go south, and we always tell people it's better to invest up front to getting your documents right. You don't want to think you and your best friends could ever go south, but there's a reason. There's a bunch of law firms and lawyers that stay busy because that's what happens. Chantell: Right, and I was fortunate not to go through that. To be honest, it was just, I was very cognizant and I think when I was younger I didn't realize the value I brought. So I felt like safety was in numbers, right, and sometimes we create an environment around us because it makes us feel protected and then at the end of the day you go, wait a minute, what about me? And so you know again, lessons learned. You know, we also have a tendency, you know, adhd. We're all entrepreneurs. We like to do lots of different things. You know a few mistakes that we made along the way was we started getting into things that we didn't know too much about, because it was the shiny penny oh this is great, let's go do this and then, oh my God, we would either lose a ton of money. You know a lot of headaches. We didn't stay focused on our core business and it kind of school of hard knocks a little bit. It took us a little bit of time to realize that, hey, we need to solely focus on, you know, our core business, mentis, and let's stop messing around with all this other stuff that seems like it's fun and exciting. Let's stay focused on our core business until we reach. You know what we were hoping to accomplish. Chris: That's great advice. The discipline of staying focused on your core and what you do best can't be overstated. So many people lose their way because of the distractions, and you're right. They end up costing more money than you expected and taking more of your time away, and it takes it away from your core, so then it suffers. Chantell: That's right, and people don't realize. You know, time is the one thing we'll never get back in life, and so if you're looking and focusing your attention on something else, what are you losing at your core business? And I see a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of people oh, I want to go do this and this. Again, we did it Not successful, but we did it. And so now, when I'm looking at things and where do I want to go next, it's where do I want to spend my time, knowing that if I spread myself too thin or too many things, I won't be as successful as I want to be. Chris: Yeah, that's great advice. I hope people are taking notes on that. So let's go back. You kind of left us a minute ago taking over the reins at FMG, right before COVID hits. Obviously, you have to manage through that in the healthcare space. Take us back to that time. What were some of the things that you learned, having to manage through such an uncertain period of time? Chantell: When I took over FMG there was a couple things that identified very quickly. Again, they were all running as independent facilities and there was no collaboration and really the culture there was no culture. You know, in my previous organization with Mentis and a lot of the companies I've been involved with, culture was huge. You know, you wanted people to want to be there and fortunately we were able to quickly build a culture that we felt and it was actually proven true through COVID that people wanted to be there. You know I was very visible in our facilities. I wanted people to know me, I wanted to hear what they had to say. As a new CEO coming in, you know, tell me how can we help you do your job more effectively? How can we help you be happier? You know, looking at things in a different perspective, other than you need to be here nine to five every day, do exactly what we want, right? You know, when COVID hit, the uncertainty of everything I mean we were. Some of my facilities were emergency rooms at the time, some of them were hospitals. You know we had limited staff, we had limited services. You know, when COVID hit it was really interesting because with the unknown of nobody really understanding the magnitude of what was happening. It was decisions on a day to day basis. Right, you know, everything was a crisis every single day. It was a very time for me, as a leader, to figure out how could I continue to hold on to this culture that we had built so we didn't lose staff, right? So, but also giving our staff the ability to take a break every once in a while, even though we didn't really have folks to fill in for them, in for them. So it was a time that we really had to bond together. And again, me being in our facilities during that time, even though I really couldn't do much to help, but at least showing my face, saying hey, I'm here with you and I'm standing beside you, especially on some of those hard decisions, I think made a big difference for our success. Chris: Yeah, you raised an interesting point there because first of all, I mean I it's been four years and maybe the memories start to fade but health care frontline workers, right, that was ground zero for the response. So I can only imagine the taxing environment for your employees. Most CEOs can be there shoulder to shoulder with their employees and maybe actually get in, you know, step in on the manufacturing line or pick up something and help out in the shop, and if you're not a licensed physician or a PA or a nurse, you can't right, you couldn't do the work, you could just be there to encourage them. Chantell: That had to be a challenge. You know you're right, because we just want to jump in and help and but there was a lot of things that what I could do and again you know, spirits high, helping clean, I mean there was, you know, again it wasn't above anybody. We had to kind of all throw hands in, all hands on deck, to help out in any aspect. And so we did what we could to try to motivate and try to help give people some breaks and give them the resources that they needed, and that was a big thing. That we did was just trying to get the resources that they needed, and so it was a trying time, but again we came across. You know, as a CEO, I wanted to be able to expand our service lines because we knew what was coming. And you know, after we got kind of settled in and we realized this was going to be a longer, a longer path than we thought, we converted all of our ERs into hospitals so we could provide additional service lines. So there was things that we could do on the strategic and on the management side where we weren't necessarily in the trenches, but yet it provided our staff some amazing resources that they needed. Chris: So you talked about culture and how important it is. It doesn't have to necessarily be at FMG, but just in your role as a leader. What are some of the things that you have done to try to build that positive, sounds like collegial team environment type of culture at the various organizations you've been? I mean, is it kind of the same playbook every time, or you know? If so, what is it? And if it's changed, how do you adapt? Funny question I'm just going to. I'll give you a quick story. You know? If so, what is it? And if it's changed? Chantell: how do you adapt? Funny question. I'm just going to give you a quick story. You know there's a lot of people that have been with me for the last 10, over 10 years, so they've seen me kind of develop as a better leader as I've gotten a little bit older. So in my old days, I have to tell you I was probably very authoritarian, very dictatorship it's my way, no way. And leadership, it's my way, no way. And then, as I've gotten a little bit older and through you know my role at FMG I realized I can't continue to lead like this. This is not how to get the most productivity out of my staff, and so I changed a lot in regards to how to build a culture. And so now you know people will tell you these are the four principles I use authenticity, I want to build trust and respect. You know again, you know I'm going to be very direct with individuals. I don't beat around the bush and I think anybody that knows me knows that. Collaboration I want people to have the ability to have a say. I want them to take ownership. You know used to as my way. You know we're going to do things my way. Now it's let talk about it Because, in today's world, I want my staff members they're there for a reason and that's to come together in a path or a process that everyone feels like is going to be beneficial to the organization. Now, it doesn't mean I won't give them my thoughts, but again, that collaboration and that belonging, I want them to feel like they're part of the team. Whether you and I both know, in an organization everyone's valuable and I want everyone to realize how valuable each member is and where they fit within that organization. Authenticity, trust, collaboration yeah, those are communication too, you know. Chris: Oh, for sure. Chantell: We used to be like we wouldn't tell anybody anything, you know, just say here's our goals, to go do them. Now we really talk about why you know and really have those hard conversations about this is you know the company. And when we went through COVID I know everybody's tired of hearing the COVID stories, but when we went through COVID, you know we would tell them hey, this is why we're doing this. And it wasn't just oh, they're causing us all these headaches. You know they're pushing stuff down. No, it was. We're doing it because of X, y and Z, and that made people appreciate it a little bit more, versus us just shoving things down. Chris: Yeah. Chantell: And so I think communication is a big one as well. Chris: Couldn't agree more. I mean, I think you know, at the end of the day, all those things sound really good and are important, but if you're not communicating effectively, it won't matter. That's right. So, something that occurred to me, I want you to talk a little bit about being innovative, because I know for sure at FMG, because I just know enough about the story that in the middle of all that y'all did some pretty innovative things that other competitors of yours weren't doing. That required some really quick on the fly decisions to get some innovative things going. So tell us about that. It helped the patients and it helped your facility. Chantell: Sure, you know, one of the perks of dealing with a smaller organization is we can make quick decisions. So when all of this was happening, you know we did have to get innovative in regards to how we were running tests, how we were treating the patients, what we were doing when we couldn't find patients higher level of care. So there was a lot of innovation that we did, you know, whether it was streamlining our processes, whether it was, you know, the equipment that we were bringing in to try to mitigate certain things. I mean, there was a lot of stuff that we did that if we weren't going through that time, we probably wouldn't have been forced to do so quickly, if that makes sense. And so there was some stuff that we tried to do in regards to you know, I'm trying to think of some specifics. A lot of it's around the labs and the testing side of making sure that our patients are being treated in-house versus having to send things out. I mean, we just tried to do everything we could to control our own destiny. Advert Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslik, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermiller.com, and thanks for listening to the show. Chris: Well, for example, I know one of the things you did was very quickly developed an app so patients could schedule an appointment that you didn't have before. Chantell: Yeah, that's correct. We tried to do some things so people would mitigate being around other, you know, possibly infected COVID people. So, yes, we did do some things to try to limit exposure during that time, just because, again, we didn't know what was going to happen long-term. Chris: So I guess one thing that people may not know about you that we want to talk about is, in addition to this professional you know journey you've described, you do a lot and have done and continue to do a lot where you advise other entrepreneurs. I want to ask you a little bit what are some of the kind of the key nuggets of advice that you tend to provide, and maybe what are some of the mistakes you see young entrepreneurs making that you try to correct before what still can be corrected, I guess Sure, it's kind of interesting. Chantell: The world has changed a lot in regards to entrepreneurship. You know, in our day it was just work your ass off. You know 24-7 and just try to climb the ladder. You know now, with some things that have happened, you know, with technology, sometimes they have this misperception that it's just going to be easy, it's going to be rainbows and unicorns all the time. It's not. There was many nights we'd sit at the bar going, holy shit, how are we going to make payroll? So I mean again, I think it's bringing that true realism back into their world of hey, you're not going to go get a CPT code for a device that doesn't exist in six months. It just doesn't work like that. And I think sometimes these young entrepreneurs are given almost bad counsel because they think that things are just so easy. Well, so-and-so did it, so I can do it. I see that a lot. I do get the opportunity to speak to some of the entrepreneurship classes up at UT and I do probably focus more on the negatives versus the positives, because I've always learned more from my failures and my successes. Some of the things of hey look, be focused. You know you don't have to have everything figured out, but have a pretty good path of where you're headed. You know, and surround yourself with the folks that are going to build you up, not break you down. You know, as an investor as well. I look at who's the team. If you've got a good jockey, I'm going to go ahead and support you. Having that right team in place is so critical and you want it to be more than just one individual. You know you want to make sure if they get hit by a bus, somebody else is right there ready to take the company. So I think that there's just little things that you know. I would probably give some insight to the entrepreneurs of you know, again, you're going to have good times and bad times. The bad times will come and go. But again, being willing to pivot If something's not working, don't wait too long to pivot or to reevaluate maybe certain aspects of the organization. Chris: Okay, so you brought it up, but I was going to. You said you learn more from your failures than successes, so tell us a story it's story time now, chantel a failure or setback that you've encountered, experience that you survived because you're sitting here today, and what that learning was and how it made you better. Chantell: So we talked a little bit earlier about how we got a little bit outside of our wheelhouse of oh, let's go do some different things, because we, you know, have been very successful at what we were doing. We were trying to purchase a hospital group out of bankruptcy. We thought, oh, how hard can this be? We can run organizations, we can run ASCs. Why can't we do this? It was a very eye-opening experience because when we got in there, we hadn't really had a path forward as to what we were going to do or how we were going to do it. It was just like, oh, we'll figure it out as we go. We also didn't think about other things that could come in and really impact us that we couldn't control. So we had purchased, we were in the process of purchasing this group, they were in bankruptcy, and then we had a flood. Well, we had just finished remodeling a hospital here in town. The flood came in. It flooded the hospital. At that point we were kind of at a place where there was not much more we could do. It was a horrible time to have to tell all those individuals that worked so hard with us that we were going to have to let them all go and you know lessons learned. You know there was positives in there because I remember the day we were getting ready to tell these poor individuals we were going to fire them the night before. You know we probably drank too much and you know it was a very emotional situation because I'd worked hand in hand with these individuals for so long. Chris: Sure. Chantell: And I remember having to tell them in tears I mean, you know, I know we're not supposed to be emotional, but these are these people's livelihoods. I was emotional, I you know I was not in a great place and I remember, after that happened, one of the the janitors came up to me and she said don't worry, chantel, we're going to be okay. But are you going to be okay? Chris: Oh, wow. Chantell: And I realized, you know, even through this failure, we had built such great relationships with these individuals and made them feel valued in so many ways that you know again, that's probably a really good example of learning myself of how important it is for relationships you know and building that trust as a leader. Chris: Well, to what to point you made just a minute ago. There is emotion in business. For sure, people try to carve it out and maybe for decades that's been the mentality, but it's ignored the reality that there's emotion in business and you're affecting people's lives when you are hiring them and when you're firing them. So you know people that lose sight of that are missing the boat, and I think how you manage the emotion in the business is one thing, but don't make the mistake of thinking it's not there. Chantell: No for sure, and you know, again, my old days I would have never showed, you know, a whole lot of emotion. I will tell you, though, being authentic with people just builds more trust. And look, some people say I'm very challenging to work with. You know, because I'm very specific, I'm very direct, but you know where you stand with me at all times, you know, and I had a situation last year where I had to let someone go, and it was. I mean, I really love this person as an individual, but this just wasn't the right place for them, and I tried very hard to mentor, to get him to that place, and I just couldn't, and it was very emotional to have to say, hey look, this is not, you know, the best place for you. The greatest return was six months later. They contacted me and said thank you so much. The best thing you ever did was have that conversation, and now I found a place where I love I'm being respected, and so, again, I think we all have emotion. It's as you mentioned, it's how you use it. It's okay for people to realize that you're human. I mean you know I'm human, I mean, and so I have emotions, and there's people I like and, again, you are impacting their lives and they're impacting yours. Chris: For sure, and I mean I have a number of stories similar to the one you just shared, where you run into an employment situation that's not working. You, knowing that it's not working, have to make a decision, expend a ton of emotional energy over it, worried about it. My experience has been, I think I can say, almost every time, despite that hard conversation, that person ends up in a better place because it's where they were meant to be. And we say this all the time. We're not trying to be the largest organization. We just want to be the best for those that fit with our mission and what we're passionate about and our values. And doesn't mean we're right for everybody and that doesn't make people a bad person. Chantell: That's right. Chris: There there's another organization where they're going to fit. Chantell: And and, and she did say to me she goes thank you, because I always knew where I stood with you and thank you for always being very direct. You know and that's the other thing people hide from those conversations. I'd rather have those conversations, you know, leading up to it. Look, here's the expectations. Let's talk about how you can get there, and I'm always happy to mentor and advise, but at some point you have to say, hey, look, this just isn't the right place. Chris: Right. Chantell: And so, and that's OK too. Chris: So let's talk a little bit about as you built these companies. You've had to have key stakeholders and relationships with them that are part of the success, that's vendors, customers. Let's talk about what are some of the things that you've learned that have helped to kind of build, nurture and grow those types of strategic relationships, if you will. Chantell: Sure, most of the people that I still work with, I've worked with for many years and I think you know I tell people all the time my integrity is the only thing that I really is mine in this world. My kids have everything else, but my integrity is mine. I think it's really being fair with people. You know I'm loyal to a fault, but I'm also again, I don't want to say high maintenance, but I have great expectations of people as well. And so if you look at a lot of the vendors, you know, again, they've been with me forever because I'm very loyal to them, I'm very fair, I'm very direct and they're good to me. Chris: Right. Chantell: You know, and I think as I've gotten older I had never realized the importance of relationships and how you have to be very intentional with giving and taking Right Right. But I also know with my vendors, they do a great job for me. I'm going to, I want to give them out to everybody else. I mean, I'm going to drive business their direction. And so I think that you know, with the stakeholders, a lot of people make a mistake of. You know everyone's got to win. You know that's just the reality. There's an abundance for everyone in life. You know, one of my best friends is a direct competitor of us. We laugh all the time. We can't be friends in public, but we can be friends behind closed door. But there's an abundance for everyone in life and so if you treat people like that and you're fair, I think you know you win, everyone wins. Chris: Everyone wins, and that's the thing I think finding the way where everyone can win, sure, and there's the value in kind of reciprocity, right, when someone does treat you well, that you obviously should treat them well in return. But have that be a lesson how you should be treating others that you're coming into contact with, right, absolutely, absolutely. So you mentioned this earlier because I like to talk about leadership style and you've kind of alluded to some of your evolution. Any more you can share kind of on how you view your style, how you feel like it's evolved and maybe some of the things that have helped you make those steps to kind of grow from the command and control to the more collaborative leader. Chantell: I think self-awareness, I think when we're younger, we think we're invincible and we do no wrong. I think self-awareness, I think when we're younger, we think we're invincible and we do no wrong. I think self-awareness has been critical for me, just for personal growth, right. So I also realized, you know, I wasn't getting the most out of the people and I realized that how I came in impacted everybody around me, if that makes sense. Chris: Sure. Chantell: So when I walk in and I'm closed off, everyone's going to scatter. If I walk in and I'm in a great mood and I say hello to everybody, your energy that you put out, you get back. And so I think, as I've gone through my career path, I've realized that, getting more and really I had a great partner, business partner, that he would talk to everyone. I wondered how he got anything done some days because he was just the most jovial guy that loved everyone and he would sit and listen to people for hours and I used to say I don't know how you do this. Isn't this driving you crazy? You know, I just I want, I don't want to know what time it is, I want to know, yeah, I want to know what time it is. I don't want to know how to build the clock. And I realized how much everyone respected him because he not only cared about them on the job, he cared about the whole person. Right, and people felt that. And I finally asked him one day. I said can you teach me how to be like that? Because I want people to realize I do care. I may not come across and show it, and so I that's how I kind of evolved, of taking that time and realizing ten minutes out of my day of sitting down and really focusing and being present with people, how much more they wanted to be there, how much more productive they were, and so it's really again being the leader that you have to establish boundaries. I'm not saying you, you know, let everybody circumvent their ladder, but having the ability to really show how much you care for those individuals and also what's going to put them in a position to be a better employee, right, right. And look, I went through a big thing with my team about working from home. Okay, I hate working from home, ok. Chris: I hate working from home. I'm just going to tell you that I like the collaboration. I like everyone in the office. You know that you're in good company. There was literally an article in the online Houston Business Journal this morning about that topic and how everything is swinging back to five days a week in the office. Chantell: That's right, and it was a big fight in my office about that and I finally said, okay, let's compromise, because I realized that some of them were driving an hour both ways, okay. So Mondays and Fridays we have home days. Tuesday, wednesday, thursday, we're all in the office. So again, I met them where they wanted to be and how could they be most effective. And I realized, having that time at home, where they didn't have 5,000 people walking in their offices every day, they were more productive. And so again it's you know. You know you asked me a specific question about how I've changed. I mean, I've really come, you know, 180 in regards to who I was many years ago versus how I am now. Chris: Well, and what I hear you saying is there was an evolution and development in your leadership style that started to focus on and demonstrate humility and empathy, absolutely, you know, going back to kind of the work remote thing. I think those things, what you've got going on, can be successful because you have to start with why are we here? It's the why around the company, and we have to all agree that the company has to survive in order for any of us to have any benefits. That's right, right and so what's that going to take? And then where can there be some compromise around? You can't sacrifice productivity and you can't sacrifice delivery of services or you won't have the business. Right and right. It's really to me, getting clear around that, communicating, that we talk about communication with clarity and really everyone understanding the why absolutely, and I'll just we'll talk about the elephant in the room also being female, I mean. Chantell: So in my younger days I thought in order for me to gain respect, I had to be that authoritative bitch. You know. Basically Because that's what society told me, you know in order for me to be able to play in a man's world, I had to really be that person. You know, as my career, and I got to a point where I didn't need anybody's approval or permission. You know, I realized, got to a point where I didn't need anybody's approval or permission I realized, wait a minute, I can be my authentic self. I can be compassionate, I can be empathetic and I can still be a damn good leader at the same time. Chris: That had to be liberating. Chantell: It was very liberating, and I try to instill this with a lot of the women that I talk to now. It's okay to be who we are. Let's use our innate qualities that make us such great individuals in our professional lives. You know, and I mean again, people say I'm aggressive. That's okay, I'll take it and I can be, but it enables me to also utilize what I need to build the culture and the team that I want, and so I think that's also been, you know, the last 30 years. It's also changed a lot, you know, as a society, but that's also breaking the societal norms of, oh, I have to be a certain way in order to be a good leader. I don't think that's true anymore. Chris: I agree with you Again. I think there's been an evolution in how we think about business, corporate America, whatever. And again I go back to as long as we realize that there are certain fundamentals that, no matter what is going on, we have to do for the business to survive. Then we can look on the fringes and go okay, where can we make maybe some things a little more accommodating. Chantell: Exactly so. Chris: I like to talk about those a little bit. So what are some of the strategies that you've employed to kind of and you mentioned being a mom, being a leader, being an entrepreneur to help, not necessarily balance, but be successful in both your business and personal life? Chantell: Great question. Here's my theory behind that. There's no such thing as balance. Chris: That's why I didn't use the word. Chantell: I call it work-life integration. I can't say I've figured it all out, chris. I'll just be honest and I think it's being very intentional with your time. I used to let a lot of people control my time, meaning, you know, I was always willing to meet whenever they were available. I was willing to move around things because it was important to them. I've now really been intentional about taking control back of my own time, and that's time for myself in the mornings, that's time for my kids, but that's time for work too, and so I think we all have to establish boundaries. Because I used to work 24 seven. I'd be at dinner. I mean, my five-year-old used to say mom, please put the phone down, and I would thought I was that important that I had to respond to that email, right. That second, because that's how important I was. It's not true, and I think that really establishing you know we also try to get through our entire things to do list every day what are the top three priorities I really need to get done today? Okay, let's focus on those. First, because we all know once everybody starts coming to the office, you're going to get blindsided 5,000 different ways. So really prioritizing maybe three items that I need to get done that day and then all the rest of it's great if I do, but if I don't, it's okay to walk out of there at 4.30 to go to my kids' game, right. And so I'm really trying to be intentional with my time. I'm not going to say I'm successful all the time. Chris: You know, but I've really tried with that. You have to keep in mind no one's perfect right, but I think, if you have, those intentions, that thoughtfulness about how you're going to approach your day, and I totally agree with the work-life integration. I think that's a much better way to think about it than balance, I mean. Chantell: I've learned you can have it all. You just can't have it all at the same time. So, everything in life is about a give and take. It's about you know you're sacrificing something for something else. And so it's again where are you in your life, what's important to you? I mean, I waited late in life to have children, you know, and now I'm going to enjoy my kids. So again, doesn't mean I'm sacrificing my professional, but I do amazing conversation. Chris: I really appreciate it. I want to kind of turn to some less business topics that I like to cover with all my guests. So what was your first job? Chantell: My first job. I worked at Mount Asia when I was in high school. I loved scooping ice cream and I loved hosting birthday parties for small kids. Chris: Okay, so that was it. I was going to ask what Mount Asia was. It's that golf off I-10. Chantell: So yes, that was it. I was going to ask what Mountasia was. It's that golf off I-10. Chris: So, yes, that was my first job. I love it. Do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Chantell: Tex-Mex, of course. Chris: All right. And if you could take a sabbatical for 30 days, where would you go? What would you do? Chantell: Oh gosh, A sabbatical for 30 days. Chris: Does that exist I? Chantell: don't know. I think I would really just like to travel the world. You know, I spent so much time working I would never take more than two days off at a time. I never got to see a lot of the world, and so I think it would probably just grab my kids and just embrace a great trip with my family. Chris: That sounds great. Yeah, pick a spot and go enjoy it Absolutely. Very good. Well, again, this has been great. Thank you for taking the time to share your story Lots. Special Guest: Chantell Preston.

Embassy Ingredients combines creativity and science to provide its customers with the very best innovative flavors and bakery ingredients available. Embassy Ingredients has an on-site flavor lab and full bakery test kitchen staffed with certified flavorists, food scientists and bakery specialists.They formulate, test and manufacture a wide range of flavors and bakery ingredients ensuring that taste, quality and performance are built into every product.Natural ingredients and colors have taken over, with nearly 80% of flavors and ingredients being natural. Using high quality, natural ingredients is something Embassy Ingredients has been focused on for many years. It is possible to have indulgence AND clean labels. Many products that are indulgent and taste great have clean labels. The technology today allows for the use of natural ingredients that taste as good or better than the artificial ingredients of the past. The typical Embassy customer takes 12-18 months to launch a new product. For that reason, tracking trends that are in the earliest stages and will still be relevant a year from now is important. QUOTES ]“When I started, I was the only employee. I got the orders in the morning, made them in the afternoon, delivered them the next day and got more orders.” (Martino)“As a 17 year old kid I found out that persistence and perseverance were the personality traits you need as an entrepreneur.” (Martino) “In the 90s I'd say about 80% of the flavors that were sold were artificial and 20% were natural. Right now it's about 80% natural and 20% artificial.” (Martino) “We've always tried to keep the junk out of mixes. Just because you're buying something you want to indulge in, doesn't mean it has to be completely unhealthy for you.” (Martino)“If it's not needed inside the product, why put it in?” (Martino) “When you indulge, it better be good. You don’t want something that's being made as inexpensively as possible.” (Martino) “Every crisis you face you learn some new business skills you didn't know you had.” (Martino) “During a crisis (like COVID), people eat more sweets than in a non-crisis.” (Martino)“If you taste test new recipes for a living, you get really good at tasting without eating.” (Martino)  TRANSCRIPT 00:01.76vigorbrandingToday’s guest is someone who knows a lot about ingredients a lot about flavor trends and a lot about baked goods. He’s Martino Babila and he’s the founder and president of embassy ingredients welcome to show Martino and thank you very much for joining us. So. 00:13.47MartinoThank you Michael thanks for being glad to be on the show. 00:18.41vigorbrandingYep, So tell everyone you know a little bit about Embassy ingredients. What’s your mission and what do you guys? do. 00:21.59MartinoSo embassy ingredients is centered on the bakery trace so we supply ingredients to large scale bakeries. So we have a side of our business that makes flavors and a side that makes the industrial version you might say of a Duncan hides cake mix. So when you go off to your supermarket or to Dunkin Donuts or Starbucks you’ll find our ingredients and a lot of the baker that you’re going to be buying at those qsars or supermarkets. 00:47.54vigorbrandingFantastic I like in forktails we talk about food and beverage right? So restaurants you know cpg all of the like. But what’s really kind of cool about you and your businesses is you make the flavors and the reasons we go to restaurants reason we buy Cpg is because we like the way stuff tastes we like the way they prepare their food and you guys are. Kind of the secret ingredient if you will ah in in behind it all. So my first question I’ve known you for a long time but I actually found this out and did not realize it so I think this is fantastic and a great way to start I love I love stories. Um, you know I started my agency. Ah my first advertising agency when I was 27 I thought that was really young. Ah, but you took over your father’s company as owner and president when you were seventeen years old ah you know and when I was 17 I was probably getting in trouble for speeding with my my new driver’s license. So I mean I can’t imagine ah starting and running a company at that point in time. Can you can you tell tell us that story how how does someone start a company or take over a company at 17. 01:45.63MartinoBut it started actually 2 years before that my dad pulled me out of school when it was in grade eleven. So technically I never graduated high school and I started a company with my brother and I and my dad so the 3 of us started up a business that was mostly distribution. My dad had a hobby of. Bringing in these flavors from italy diluting them with simple syrup which is water and sugar and we used to sell them to bakeries up and down the street. All these small italian bakeries that were all over toronto. These toronto is a large italian community Two years later my brother went off and started directing television commercials. He’s in video art. He’s done pretty well though he’s ah he did the the graphics for the sphere for the u 2 concert. Yeah and my dad and I didn’t really see I eye on how to run a business because he wanted to have a business with no employees and the business was going bankrupt. 02:28.68vigorbrandingUm, yeah, very cool. 02:39.68MartinoSo my dad left and I took over a $5000 a year business so that was our total sales or remember at that point and I had a j two thousand wagon to do my deliveries in so there wasn’t a lot of speeding going on in that j two thousand bag and I think if I floored that sucker it wasn’t going over 60 02:44.82vigorbrandingYeah, yeah. 02:54.12vigorbrandingA. 02:59.43MartinoYeah, So so that’s how the business started I was the only employee basically got the orders in the morning made them in the afternoon delivered them again the next day got more orders we slowly ah slowly grew the business started making our own flavors started getting into bakery Mixes. Bought used equipment from a company that went bankrupt and we started blending our own cake mixes for these bakeries and then as we grew we started getting into more industrial customers and then our business model kind of evolved into dealing with the larger and larger bakeries and the big product Launches. So. And where I really learn how to run a business is that as a 70 year old kid I found that but persistence and Perseverance really are what is the personality trait you need as an entrepreneur like without that you’re not going to make it but then I went back to school in my forty s. 03:48.31vigorbrandingAny man. 03:55.33MartinoI went to a class called opm at Harvard and it’s ah nine weeks of schooling at Harvard is three weeks every year over three years that’s when I joined ypo because about 20% of but classmates were Ypr is and organization that we both belong to learn how to develop a business model learn how to really run a company rather than just ah, having a job in grunt work and building a business that way and really expanded the business after that and and that’s when we really broke into. Um, you might say we deal with all the largest bakeries in North America right now. So our products are going to be in your baked goods whenever you want to indulge. It’s probably something of mine is in something you’re eating during the week 04:34.64vigorbrandingUm. 04:42.92vigorbrandingYeah I heard you say it before and that’s that’s amazing like there’s probably everybody in in the country at USCanada and I think South America said too that they they taste your products you’re you’re you’re in there. You’re in their bread or their their cupcake or their. 04:53.66MartinoAnd Natural America. Yeah. 05:00.66vigorbrandingThey’re muffin somewhere right. 05:00.74MartinoAnd we’re also some global launches with some retailers so we produce the product mostly North America sometimes we export it internationally. So there’s some of our products that are going all over the globe and global launches. 05:15.55vigorbrandingThat’s Great. You know I think it’s It’s really Interesting. You brought up about I’ll say either Ypo or I’ll just see entrepreneurs as a whole the folks I talked to on this program are all like presidents or or ceos of of companies. A lot of them are entrepreneurs. Um. Everyone seems to have by and large the same store I think I think a lot of people just think oh you know? Yeah yeah, you were highly Educated. You came from money. Ah you were handed this opportunity and that’s quite the opposite like pretty much everybody has that same thing in common that they they grind it out. They they started at the bottom they had an idea. They didn’t have any money they they just they they just pushed and I think that’s the that is the secret sauce and and absolutely every one of these great like ah stories I get to hear you know everybody just kind of pushes and pushes and pushes and and doesn’t give up I mean I’m sure you faced a lot of ah adversity. Ah, can you talk a little bit about some of the things that that you bumped up against. 06:11.56MartinoWell, you know what I had 0 money when I took it over and at 17 you can’t even legally book get a loan from the bank because I wasn’t eighteen yet. So my only line of credit was a credit card that the bank manager was able to give me I had no help from anybody including my family actually. 1 thing that 1 thing that drove me a lot in terms of adversity was my dad’s parting words when he left was I’ll be bankrupt in six months so the thing is if I don’t think he meant it that way but that inspired me to never throw in the towel. Ah and and that’s part of my personality is. 06:45.48vigorbrandingUm. 06:50.75MartinoI I will never give up I just just before this podcast I just got off a call with one of our largest customers and we’re trying to work on a big new program with them and at the end of the phone call I tell them well 1 thing you’ll notice about embassy we’re very persistent and he just started laughing and he goes yes I’ve noticed that. 07:08.87vigorbrandingThat’s fantastic Hey you got to be a bulldog. 07:09.69MartinoTo this day. Yeah to this data and what if if there’s one trait that will make an entrepreneur successful or any business leader successful is persistence. 07:20.27vigorbrandingYeah, yeah, we call it being bulldoggged here I mean we we all ah, that’s our mascot and it’s sort of our attitude you got to just be. You know you got to be bulldoggged about stuff just don’t give up and keep pushing forward. So that’s that’s awesome advice. Um all right? So let’s jump into the business thing here. Let’s talk about. Ah, the clean labels in the 80 s and 90 s people didn’t care about additives preservatives artificial colors as long as the finished products tasted good and that’s no longer the case right? So how how much of a challenge has that been to keep up with the demand for cleaner ingredients. 07:49.18MartinoWell let me give you an example on the flavor side back in the 90 s I’d say 80% of all the flavors were sold were artificial and 20% more natural I think right now it’s about 80% natural 20% artificial 08:03.90vigorbrandingMe. 08:06.83MartinoAnd that also has gone to the color side. Um, the challenge. There’s a challenge there. There’s a cost increase in some cases but not always ah but at this point here after doing it for so many years. It’s quite simple to switch a product from Being. An artificially flavored and colored product to at least the natural flavors. The colors are more of a challenge. Ah, but that also could be done now. But that’s the most costly part is the is the color side. Um in terms of clean label in terms of what you’re Eating. We actually have fun in that like like. 08:35.98vigorbrandingYou. 08:43.98MartinoWe’ve always tried to keep the junk out of our mixes only because you’re buying something that you want to indulge in doesn’t mean it has to be completely unhealthy for you and we’ve always thought about if it’s not needed inside the product. Why put it it so we’ve always looked at keeping a shorter ingredient deck. Keeping it natural and even there we’ve done a lot of very old natural products that we launched over the last few years 09:07.73vigorbrandingSo so you can’t have indulgence in clean labels right? I mean even though we’re talking cakes and cookies people. You know they they want to watch what they eat but they can still have clean labels right. 09:19.50MartinoOh absolutely actually some of my favorite products that you find in the store shelf that are indulgent and taste great. Our clean label. Um, so in the 70 s the technology wasn’t there to make them clean label. And give the conditions that you need in the supermarket. For example, if if you produce a big good Today. You have to make it freeze it and then it has to go to the supermarket and then the supermarket typically wants to thaw the product and have it on the shelf for up to eight days so that customers can buy bring it over and it still tastes good. In the 70 s the technology wasn’t there to do that. Naturally the technology is there now that using natural ingredients you can achieve that and you can actually make it tasted better than using an artificial ingredients. 10:00.40vigorbranding5 10:06.61vigorbrandingVery cool. So I mean talking about trends um you and I met probably years and years ago and I would do the food and beverage trends presentation at ypo and ah for ah for anybody that’s listening would would care if they go to cheers at quench agency. dotcomthey can download our food and beverage trends presentation. It’s free. We have several years we always have the most updated on the website so that’s always there so that’s how that’s how you and I met and but the thing that we had in common right? away was was talking about trends and I know that you follow them very closely. 10:39.50MartinoUp. 10:41.18vigorbrandingUm, the way we always looked at it. There’s innovators who are really super early on a train then there’s early adopters early majority and then late majority and then obviously laggards We’re always obviously trying to be in the forefront. Um, when I do a Trends presentation. It’s like sometimes people are like well I’ve already heard of that. Well. If No one had heard of it before at all, it certainly wouldn’t be a trend so you want to catch that early edge of it. Talk about like how you look at Trends because you’ve told me before a lot of times your flavor profiles and things like That. You’re just listening you’re watching and and again I think you’ve always said too. You want to be on the early side of it because till you can get it to Market. Ah, if you know if you wait til the the the late majority will hell it’s too late I mean it’s ah you you know it’s It’s past it’srying. 11:21.79MartinoHey look even inside the company here at embassy we have a lot of the dates about trends and how do we do the market research. So our typical customer takes 12 to 18 months to launch a product from the time we present it. 11:36.65vigorbrandingE. 11:39.22MartinoOr they request a presentation which means that if you’re trying to grab a trend that’s already out there. They’re going to be at the at after the peak. So it’s about looking at the trends that are up and coming and. 11:52.15vigorbrandingE. 11:56.11MartinoThat really makes us that the most successful products that we’ve launched have been with companies that haven’t done focus groups that haven’t done the mentel research in terms of these are because if you wait eighteen months after that comes out, you’re you’re getting the tail end of the trend. 12:14.11vigorbrandingThat’s right. 12:14.20MartinoYou’re getting already where you’re going to be losing money on it. The most successful launches we have is when you’re scouring social media. You’re looking at what’s happening at the local small bakeries when you’re going to the trade shows and you’re looking at the booths that couldn’t afford the the really good area in the middle. 12:27.60vigorbrandingAh. 12:32.94MartinoAnd they’re right at the back corner and these entrepreneurial companies that are really hungry and come up with this novel little product. Ah those where you get the ideas for the really good trends and then you have to then you have to sort out all these trends that you’ve seen and all these ideas These people are having of which. 12:40.70vigorbrandingUm. 12:52.48MartinoI’d say 80% will fail and not really become a mass Market trend and then hopefully pick the right one to say this one’s got legs. Let’s really present it to our customers and when we have customers that don’t want to go to the focus groups because. A lot of those trends will fail in the focus group because we’re showing that the customer somebody. They’ve never seen before but when people are willing to take a chance and say this is up and Coming. We’ve seen great results coming out the other end. 13:15.24vigorbrandingWho. 13:26.11vigorbrandingVery Cool. So How how do you balance that? How do you bounce between ah a trending exotic flavor and say something that’s familiar like comfort food so you mean at the end of the day. Sometimes you just want a really good chocolate chip cookie or a blueberry muffin I mean how does that work like how much how do you decide how much of these exotics. Or how much of ah ah say a flyer. Do you take on some of these new flavors. 13:48.23MartinoYeah, it’s like the basics are easy to sell and they’re always going to be a mass market item and they’re going to get great sales out of them and you could tweak those a little bit so sometimes if you don’t want to take too much risk. You can do a tweak on a basic. And then you can get on a new trend with a tweak on a basic um or you can try experimenting with ltos so a lot of our customers will try with ltls like so it reduces the risk factor and they can see if it’s something that can go mainstream and they can make it go all year round. And they come in with a three month lto project but it’s it’s really listening to the noise in the media and going around to different parts of the world and seeing what’s trending there because the us is going to get the trends usually after Europe and after asia gets them it depending the community you’re trying to Target. And it’s really listening what’s coming out of there and trying to grab um to it at the right point. 14:48.74vigorbrandingVery cool. So if if you can tell me what are some of the trends you’re tracking now like in terms of ingredients and maybe recipe development is there anything. That’s that you’re looking at that you think is pretty cool, exciting and new. 14:59.41MartinoWell, the stuff that’s coming out sometimes it’s not as exciting as new as I would like it to be but sometimes yeah and and you know what every year we publish a little pit thing that we send out to everybody like at like and at the end of 2023 15:06.61vigorbrandingBut it sells. 15:17.84MartinoWhat other transfer 2024 and it sounds like oh my my god embassy’s got a crystal ball though. The reality is is our customers are always launching 12 to 18 months out. We already know what’s trending for 2024 because it’s already in the pipeline. So. 15:28.84vigorbrandingWho. 15:32.32MartinoWhat’s really trending for next year is a lot of basics. It seems like coming out of covid everybody wants comfort foods. Ah everybody wants to get into what their what their grandmother used to make into that comfort and so on ah, there’s a lot of indulgence where they wanted a lot richer to though. 15:36.13vigorbrandingHer. 15:51.67MartinoSo they want something with a lot of richness. So if if people trending wise are trying to get healthier in general like there’s a there’s a push right now where people are drinking a little bit less alcohol people are trying to get a little bit healthier but people still want to indulge so when before. 16:10.40vigorbrandingUm. 16:11.62MartinoA lot of customers would want. Okay, how inexpensive can we make this There’s a little bit more of a push for quality so that with the clean label push is also coming to push where if I’m going to consume eight hundred calories I want it to be worth the one hour on the treadmill I’m going not to pay for this. And it’s going to taste really good and there’s nothing wrong with indulging once’s in a wild no matter what diet or you’ on you have you need to indulge or also there’s nothing long term to going to happen. But when you indulge it better be good. You don’t want to have something that had 3 cost cutting projects done before it. And it’s being made as inexpensively as possible so people are trending more. They’ll spend a little bit more money but by a smaller portion and that’s one trend that I really am supporting because everybody would rather sell quality than something that doesn’t have that quality behind it. 16:55.82vigorbrandingAnd. 17:07.97vigorbrandingYeah I mean that makes sense absolutely so I mean you started your business. You’re 17 you’ve you’ve obviously seen a lot of challenges 2008 covid and I’m sure there’s ah, a million in between. Um. Like what are some of the the biggest challenges you’ve gone through I know you’ve said that the the covid pandemic is your biggest professional accomplishment were there others before that you want to talk a little bit about that and go into the whole covid thing. What you did there. 17:32.82MartinoOh I guess the the big the last time before covid that was a great learning process every every crisis Trust me, you learned some new business skills. You never thought you had was 2008 financial crisis like and for about three months or sales went down 50% because none of our customers knew what to buy or if to buy anything and so on and it ended up just being a depletion of supply chain because what we found that that during a crisis people actually more sweets than in a non-crisis so business rebounded very fast after that. 18:05.40vigorbrandingThat’s right? so. 18:11.59MartinoUm, during Covid The biggest issue was supply chain. Okay, that’s that’s probably with everybody else. It was a matter of how do we keep our customers supplied and how do we keep their operations going and how do they continue supplying their customers and how do we get the food of the table. 18:14.36vigorbrandingAre. 18:30.63MartinoAh, for the people that need it. So That’s where the challenges were so it was a lot of prioritizing reformulting sometimes they use less of an ingredient that we use to use inside of a product we we we try to see. Okay, can we substitute it with other ingredients and bypass the shortage of this one ingredient So There was a lot of R and D work being done on that. Um, a lot of tough decisions like we had to abandon some of our expert Markets. We decided to focus in on our. 18:58.36vigorbrandingMy head. 19:06.70MartinoCanadian and us and Mexican customers and abandoned some of the other markets a little bit more than we had were’re aggressively pursuing before we stepped back until supply supply chain caught up and now we were reengaging again. 19:19.45vigorbrandingDid you feel like the supply chains are catching up. You feel like that’s getting better. 19:23.37MartinoSupply chains are catching up in most parts. What’s happening now to us is global warming so supply chain seems to be catching up and then you get an email that there’s a drought in Africa so in the ivory coast. 19:40.34vigorbrandingMyth. 19:41.60MartinoSo now you can’t get cocoa so you’re gonna everybody’s gonna be seeing if there’s anything chocolate on the shelf that’s going to probably go up 30 to 50% in price and in some cases you want to even be able to find it so the world cocos and chocolate supply just went down 30% 19:49.39vigorbrandingWow. 19:59.66vigorbrandingThe. 20:00.24MartinoBecause of one drought. So we’re finding a lot of the challenges that we’re having right now is all due to global warming and crisis happening in certain parts of the world and then mitigating the supply challenge of that ingredient that got affected. 20:15.21vigorbrandingIncredible. Um, so I mean okay during Covid I mean there was the shutdown at home baking was a big trend Certainly that’s not bad for you but but it certainly you probably do but even better with the store bought bake goods and things like that is that correct. 20:28.63MartinoWell at Home Beagle was terrible for us. We don’t have anything that is for the at home baker. Ah we only supply the large bakeries that will supply all your qsrs and your supermarkets. 20:33.69vigorbrandingUm, ah. 20:39.14vigorbrandingSo you’re not in any mixes you’re just in the actual the finished product got it. 20:44.74MartinoYeah, we’re in we’re in the finished product. So covid even the work from home was now good for us because a lot of the sales like you can use. Ah, let’s say Duncan as an example like a lot of people will get a coffee on their way to the office and then when they get their coffee. They’ll also get a muffin. 20:56.47vigorbrandingUm. 21:03.28MartinoOr they’ll get a bagel. But if you’re not going to the office. You might not leave your house to get the coffee and if you’re not getting the coffee. You’re also not getting the muffin or bagel or donut So the work from Home. Ah. Also affected the business and where the customer shop because it went into the supermarket rather than the qsrs. So. It’s a matter of finding out where the new outlet is. 21:30.25vigorbrandingYeah, the work from home thing is still affecting everybody I know that it’s ah it’s just a whole different animal and there’s a lot of real estate out there. That’s sitting empty and it’s just ah, it’s changed how we are. It’s ah it’s interesting to see how this all evolves. Um, so. 21:44.10vigorbrandingYou know?? Ah well I’m going to go back to another another question so in in your on your website it says here if you’re an employee of of Embassy you get bakery treats galore all right. So that is a perk right? So if someone was starting Tomorrow. What would they find are there bakely treats. Ah bakekery treat school or waiting for them. 22:03.70MartinoOh absolutely like ah so how we work our quality department is that every time we make a batch of anything we test a batch and we actually make the finish cake so we have ah. 22:15.87MartinoEndless amount of baked goods coming out of our bakery testing the products that we made that is free to take for any any of their employees to take home with them. Take it home to their family and so on and then depending on your job function. But any ah, any employee gets invited to this. We’re always developing new products in R and D and we’re always looking for people to taste the products and give us feedback so in some job Functions. You have to be eating sweets every day. So for some people is a dream Job. So. 22:47.35vigorbrandingUm. 22:50.93MartinoYou get really good at tasting and not eating. Okay, so so because first you join embassy then you get what I call the embassy 15 ah, then you realize that okay I only had to take a bite out of that muffin I didn’t have to eat the whole muffin to taste it. Then you go back to just a bite and you get back regular but then you sometimes you get these really great. We just finished a project that just got approved last week is goingnna be a national launch later on this year at the in the us and. 23:11.16vigorbrandingAh, there. 23:25.27MartinoIt hit the sweet spot for exactly what I like I mean it was right down to bullseye for stuff that I have a weakness for it is the first time in a year that not only did I not taste I was actually actively asking r and d can you tell me when it comes out of the oven and make an next round for me. Ah. 23:43.28vigorbrandingAh, ah so now you’re gonna put on put on the 15 is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, never trust a skinny baker right? Then that end that what they say. 23:44.22MartinoBoy yeah I put on the 15 but you know what when it’s that good. The 15 is well worth it. You know what? like I said it’s it’s worth every every calorie at one point. How offs absolutely like what 1 baker 1 time was patting his belly and said this is my r and d department. 24:04.33vigorbrandingAh, that’s fantastic. That’s fantastic, Fantastic all right? So I’m going to test you with some rapid fire questions here on your baked goods I Want to know your personal favorites. Okay, so pancakes or waffles all right I would agree with that spongecake or angel food cake. 24:17.72MartinoWaffles. Okay, when I was 10 years old. There would be angel food cake Now let’s say sponge cake. 24:24.77vigorbrandingYeah I agree with that multigreen bread or white bread. Yeah same here donuts are danish. 24:31.50MartinoMultigrain. 24:36.46MartinoOh nice east straight donut. Ah so good brownies and oh and there’s 2 There’s also 2 camps in brownies. There’s the kki brownie people and the chewy brownie people. 24:36.71vigorbrandingAnd we’re we’re exactly in the same line here cookies or brownies. No. 24:53.73vigorbrandingUm I see that’s that’s great. That’s great. Yeah I prefer the chewy browning myself I Totally agree with that and you know it’s funny. You had said earlier too about how. 24:53.74MartinoAnd the world is split fifty fifty and I’m a chewy brownie person. 25:07.42vigorbrandingYou know when there’s issues with the economy suites go up. Um, you know we we worked in the ice cream category for many many years and that was absolutely the case you know you worry about like oh discretionary spending is going to go down. People aren’t going to spend money on grocery. They’re going to cut back just to the necessities. Ice cream is definitely a necessity. Any suite is a necessity when the when the economy’s in trouble. So that’s something we learned a long time ago I got 1 one last question I’m throwing a curve ballll here I’ve being a tang guy this is this is intriguing to me. There’s obviously dough which is you know in your breads and everything and I’m a italian I love bread. 25:41.50MartinoUm. 25:41.55vigorbrandingAnd then there’s there’s batter right in your pastries batter or batter or dough if you had to pick one or the other you can’t have anything ever again. Okay, all right I’d buy good dough. That’s bad. It’s forever where we’d split there well but basically you should. 25:47.63MartinoI go for the batter know I got a sweet tooth I got a sweet do in the gold sauce suit. 26:00.84vigorbrandingYeah, you you you basically should so okay, a couple last questions here I you I know you have a really busy. You said you’re on the road for like three weeks four weeks busy trade shows what? what trade shows? Do you go to like what you know and where do you find that you’re observing some of the cutting edge, edge flavors and food trends are they international shows they more national or. 26:14.30MartinoI. 26:19.82vigorbrandingI Mean where are you going and what are you seeing and why. 26:20.36MartinoIs it’s a combination of international and national shows like in the us you got the fancy food show you you have 2 of them and they happen in the states and again where we find value is all the middle of the show. You’ve already seen all that stuff. 26:25.42vigorbrandingAccess. 26:35.41vigorbrandingYeah, yeah. 26:37.99MartinoLike you’ve seen it on your website. You’ve seen it on every website you you want to look at those are stuff that stuff that’s been in the stores already or is about about to be launched. We’ve already heard of it I like the back corners and that new company booth. 26:46.69vigorbrandingUm. 26:54.48MartinoArea where all these new entrepreneurs are exhibiting their cl which you’re looking at finished products and that’s a more international show. There’s a nuga in Germany so we go to a lot of the international ones too because that gives us trends that are happening over there. Might be mainstream but they haven’t come to the us or Canada yet. So that gives us maybe a outlook going. Okay, which one is transportable and which one is not in our industry show. There’s like id to be a that’s a bakery show just for our industry. There’s Ibe and vegas that app is every three years 27:15.21vigorbrandingRight. 27:25.23vigorbrandingMe. 27:32.54MartinoAnd there’s some industry shows that are just for bakery that are happening in Germany and France. 27:36.65vigorbrandingVery cool, very cool all right. My last question for you Martino if you had 1 final meal. What would you eat and why and it can’t be 1 of your products. No can’t be 1 of your products. No no, no, you get off the grid here. 27:47.44MartinoWell has to be 1 of my products well can’t be 1 of my product. Okay, so I’m I’m italian so I’d like every nationality of food I’ll try anything and I eat everything but at the end of the day I’m italian it’s going to be italian food. 27:55.67vigorbrandingI know. 28:03.50vigorbrandingThere you go. 28:05.86MartinoAnd it could be anything from a great plate of pasta to and like steak Turk Tar the italian style not the french style. There’s 2 different first styles I’m on the italian side of course and then also like fish crudo like it’s thinly sliced raw fish. 28:14.54vigorbrandingBig difference. Yep. 28:24.14MartinoIt’s like the Italian version of the sushi. 28:27.25vigorbrandingUm, absolutely, that’s fantastic. Well done is there a special restaurant something in Toronto is there is your is your go to for you. 28:34.36MartinoWell, but the my favorite high end rest right? and to toronto that does italian food is a place called the nico ah it’s they have amazing high end italian food. But if you’re looking for like basic pastas and everything else. There’s a a mano pasta that’s it’s actually the a location in the train station but they have great pastas and you get them. They’re cheap and they’re really good. Ah, toronto’s going to half a million italians so it’s it’s hard to select 1 restaurant and I go to a lot of different restaurants and. 28:53.46vigorbrandingWow! yeah. 29:08.57MartinoBut that many Italians foods the culture. 29:10.75vigorbrandingThat’s it. That’s right amen that’s perfect Martino you were wonderful. It’s always a pleasure talking to you and and I always enjoy when we we get to hang out. So hopefully I’ll get to see you soon and I appreciate you being being a part of this all right buddy talk soon. 29:20.71MartinoThank you by Michael. 

After finishing her training in neurology at Mayo Clinic, Dr. Svetlana Blitshteyn started a Dysautonomia Clinic in 2009. Little did she know what was in store many years later when Covid hit!Ground Truths podcasts are on Apple and Spotify. The video interviews are on YouTubeTranscript with audio and external linksEric Topol (00:07):Well, hello, it's Eric Topol from Ground Truths, and I have with me a really great authority on dysautonomia and POTS. We will get into what that is for those who aren't following this closely. And it's Svetlana Blitshteyn who is a faculty member at University of Buffalo and a neurologist who long before there was such a thing as Covid was already onto one of the most important pathways of the body, the autonomic nervous system and how it can go off track. So welcome, Svetlana.Svetlana Blitshteyn (00:40):Thank you so much, Eric for having me. And I want to say it's a great honor for me to be here and just to be on the list with your other guests. It's remarkable and I'm very grateful and congratulations on being on the TIME100 Health list for influential people in 2024. And I am grateful for everything that you've done. As I mentioned earlier, I'm a big fan of your work before the pandemic and of course with Covid I followed your podcast and posts because you became the best science communicator and I'm very happy to see you being a strong advocate and thank you for everything you've done.Eric Topol (01:27):Well, that's so kind to you. And I think talking about getting things going before the pandemic, back in 2011, you published a book with Jodi Epstein Rhum called POTS - Together We Stand: Riding the Waves of Dysautonomia. And you probably didn't have an idea that there would be an epidemic of that more than a decade later, I guess, right?Svetlana Blitshteyn (01:54):Yeah, absolutely. Of course, SARS-CoV-2 is a new virus and we can technically say that Long Covid and post Covid complications could be viewed as a new entity. But practically speaking, we know that post-infectious syndromes have been happening for many decades. And so, the most common trigger for POTS happened to be infection, whether it was influenza or mononucleosis or Lyme or enterovirus. We knew this was happening. So I think it didn't take long for me and my colleagues to realize that we're going to be seeing a lot of patients with autonomic dysfunction after Covid.On the Front LineEric Topol (02:40):Well, one of the things that's important for having you on is you're in the front lines taking care of lots of patients with Long Covid and this postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS). And I wonder if you could tell us what it's care for these patients because so many of them are incapacitated. As a cardiologist, I see of course some because of the cardiovascular aspects, but you are dealing with this on a day-to-day basis.Svetlana Blitshteyn (03:14):Yeah, absolutely. As early as April 2020 when everything was closed, I got a call from a young doctor in New York City saying that he had Covid and he couldn't recover, he couldn't return to the hospital. And his colleagues and cardiology attendants also had the same symptoms and the symptoms were palpitations, orthostatic intolerance, tachycardia, fatigue. Now, how he knew to contact me is that his sister was my patient with POTS before Covid pandemic. So he kind of figured this looked like my sister, let me check this out. And it didn't take long for me to have a lot of patience from the early wave. And then fairly soon, I think within months I was thinking, we have to write this up because this is important. And to some of us it was not news, but I was sure that to many physicians and public health officials, this would be something new.Svetlana Blitshteyn (04:18):So because I'm a busy clinician and don't have a lot of time for publications, I had to recruit a graduate student from McMasters and together we had this paper out, which was the first and largest case series on post Covid POTS and other autonomic disorders. And interestingly, even though it came out I think in 2021, by the time it was published, it became the most citable paper for me. And so I think from then on organizations and societies became interested in the work that I do because prior to that, I must say in the kind of a niche specialty was I don't think it was very popular or of interest to me.How Did You Get Interested in Dysautonomia?Eric Topol (05:06):Yeah, so that's why I wanted to just take a step back with you Svetlana, because you had the foresight to be the founder and director of the Dysautonomia Clinic when a lot of people weren't in touch with this as an important entity. What prompted you as a neurologist to really zoom in on dysautonomia when you started this clinic?Svetlana Blitshteyn (05:28):Sure. So the reasons are how I ended up in this field is kind of a convoluted road and the reasons are many, but one, I will say that I trained at Mayo Clinic where we received very good training on autonomic disorders and EMG and coming back to returning back to Buffalo, I began working at the large multiple sclerosis clinic because Western New York has a high incidence MS. And so, what they quickly realized in that clinic is that there was a subset of women who did not qualify for the diagnostic criteria of multiple sclerosis, yet they had a lot of the same symptoms and they were certainly very disabled. Now I recognize that these women had autonomic disorders of all sorts and small fiber neuropathy, and I think this population sort of grew and eventually I realized there is no one not only in Buffalo but the entire Western New York who is doing this work.Svetlana Blitshteyn (06:34):So I kind of fell into that. But another reason is actually more personal that I haven't talked about. So years ago I was traveling to Toronto, Canada for a neurology meeting to present my big study on meningioma and hormone replacement therapy using Mayo Clinic database. And so, in that year, the study received top 10 noteworthy studies of the year award from the Society of Neuro-Oncology, and it was profiled in Reuters Health. Now, on the way back from the conference, I had the flu, and when they returned I could no longer walk the same hallways of the hospital where I walked previously. And no matter how hard I try to push my body, we all do this in medicine, we push through, I just couldn't do it. No amount of wishing or positive thinking. And so, I think that's how I came to know personally the post-infectious syndromes. And I think it almost became a duality of experiencing this and also practicing it.Eric Topol (07:52):No, that's really striking and it wasn't so common to hear about this post flu, but certainly it changed in 2020. So how does a person with POTS typically present to you?Clinical PresentationSvetlana Blitshteyn (08:08):So these are very important questions because what I want to stress is though POTS is one of the most common autonomic disorders. Even if you don't have POTS by the diagnostic criteria, you may still have autonomic dysfunction and significant autonomic symptoms. How do they present? Well, they present like most Long Covid patients, the most common symptoms are orthostatic intolerance, fatigue, exercise intolerance, post exertional malaise, dizziness, tachycardia, brain fog. And these are common themes across the board in Long Covid patients, but also in pre-Covid post-acute infection syndrome patients. And you have to recognize because I think what I tell my colleagues is that oftentimes patients are not going to present to you saying, I have orthostatic intolerance. Many times they will say, I'm very tired. I can no longer go to the gym or when I go to the store, I have to be out of there in 15 minutes because the orthostatic intolerance symptoms come up.Svetlana Blitshteyn (09:22):So sometimes the patients themselves don't recognize that and it's up to us physicians to ask the right questions to get the information down. History is very important, knowing the pattern. And then of course, as I always say in all of my papers and lectures, you have to do a 10-minute stand test by measuring supine and standing blood pressure and heart rate on every Long Covid patients. And that's how you spot those that have excessive postural tachycardia or their blood pressure dropping or so forth. So we have the tools. We don't need fancy autonomic labs. We don't even need a tilt table test. The diagnostic criteria for POTS is that you need to have either a 10-minute stand test or a tilt table test to get the diagnosis for POTS, orthostatic hypotension or even neurocardiogenic syncope. Now I think it's important to stress that even if a patient doesn't qualify, and let's say many patients with Long Covid will not elevate their heart rate by at least 30 beats per minute, it could be 20, it could be 25. These criteria are of course essential when we do research studies. But I think practically speaking, in patient care where everything is gray and nothing is black or white, especially in autonomic disorders, you really have to make a diagnosis saying, this sounds like autonomic dysfunction. Let me treat the patient for this problem.Eric Topol (11:07):Well, you brought up something that's really important because doctors don't have much time and they're inpatient. They don't wait 10 minutes to do a test to check your blood pressure. They send the patients for a tilt table, which nobody likes to have that test done, and it's unnecessary added appointment and expense and whatnot. So that's a good tip right there that you can get the same information just by checking the blood pressure and heart rate on standing for an extended period of time, which 10 minutes is a long time in the clinic of course. Now, what is the mechanism, what do you think is going on with the SARS-CoV-2 virus and its predilection to affect the autonomic nervous system? As you know, so many studies have questioned whether you even actually infect neurons or alternatively, which is more likely this an inflammation of the neural tissue. But what do you think is going on here?UnderpinningsSvetlana Blitshteyn (12:10):Right, so I think it's important to say we don't have exact pathophysiology of what exactly is going on. I think we can only extrapolate that what's going on in Long Covid is possibly what's going on in any post infectious onset dysautonomia. And so there are many hypothesis and there are many suggestions, and we share this disorder with cardiologist and immunologist and rheumatologist. The way I view this is what I described in my paper from a few years ago is that this is likely a central nervous system disorder with multisystemic involvement and it involves the cardiovascular system, immunologic, metabolic, possibly prothrombotic. The pathophysiology of all POTS closely parallels to pathophysiology of Long Covid. Now we don't know if it's the same thing and certainly I see that there may be more complications in Long Covid patients in the realm of cardiovascular manifestations in the realm of blood clots and things like that.Svetlana Blitshteyn (13:21):So we can't say it's the same, but it very closely resembles and I think at the core is going to be inflammation, autoimmunity and immunologic dysfunction. Now there are also other things that are very important and that would be mitochondrial dysfunction, that would be hypercoagulable state, it would be endothelial dysfunction. And I think the silver lining of Long Covid and having so many people invested in research and so many funds is that by uncovering what Long Covid is, we're now going to be uncovering what POTS and other autonomic disorders are. And I think we also need to mention a couple of other things. One is small fiber neuropathy, small fiber neuropathy and POTS are very much comorbid conditions. And similarly, small fiber neuropathy frequently occurs in patients with Long Covid, so that's a substrate with the damaged small nerve fibers that they're everywhere in our bodies and also innervate the organs as well.Svetlana Blitshteyn (14:34):The second big thing is that needs to be mentioned is hyperactive mast cells. So mast cells, small nerve fibers and capillaries are very much located in proximity. And what I have usually is a slide from an old paper in oral biology that gives you a specimen where you see a capillary vessel, a stain small nerve fiber, and in between them there is a mass cell with tryptase in it stained in black. And so there is a close communication between small nerve fibers between endothelial wall and between mast cells, and that's what we commonly see as a triad. We see this as a triad in Long Covid patients. We see that as a triad in patients with joint hypermobility syndrome and hypermobile EDS, and you also see this in many of the autoimmune disorders where people develop new allergies and new sensitivities concurrent or preceding the onset of autoimmune disease.Small Fiber NeuropathyEric Topol (15:49):Yeah, no, it's fascinating. And I know you've worked with this in Ehlers-Danlos syndrome (EDS) as you mentioned, the hypermobility, but just to go back on this, when you want to entertain the involvement of small fiber neuropathy, is that diagnosable? I mean it's obvious that you can get the tachycardia, the change in position blood pressure, but do you have to do other tests to say there is indeed a small fiber neuropathy or is that a clinical diagnosis?Svetlana Blitshteyn (16:20):Absolutely. We have the testing and the testing is skin biopsy. That is simply a punch biopsy that you can do in your clinic and it takes about 15 minutes. You have the free kit that the company of, there are many companies, I don't want to name specific ones, but there are several companies that do this kind of work. You send the biopsy back to them, they look under the microscope, they stain it. You can also stain it with amyloid stain to rule out amyloidosis, which we do in neurology, and I think that's quite accessible to many clinicians everywhere. Now we also have another test called QSART (quantitative sudomotor axon reflex test), and that's a test part of autonomic lab. Mayo Clinic has it, Cleveland Clinic has it, other big labs have it, and it's hard to get there because the wait time is big.Svetlana Blitshteyn (17:15):Patients need to travel. Insurance doesn't always authorize, so access is a big problem, but more accessible is the skin biopsy. And so, by doing skin biopsy and then correlating with neurologic exam findings, which oftentimes involved reduce pain and temperature sensation in the feet, sometimes in the hands you can conclude that the patient has small fiber neuropathy and that's a very tangible and objective diagnosis. There again, with everything related to diagnostics, some neuropathy is very patchy and the patchy neuropathy is the one that may not be in your feet where you do the skin biopsy. It may be in the torso, it may be in the face, and we don't have biopsy there. So you can totally miss it. The results can come back as normal, but you can have patchy type of small fiber neuropathy and there are also diagnostic tests that might be not sensitive to pick up issues. So I think in everything Long Covid, it highlights the fact that many tests that we use in medicine are outdated perhaps and not targeted towards these patients with Long Covid. Therefore we say, well, we did the workup, everything looks good. MRI looks good, cardiac echo looks great, and yet the patient is very sick with all kinds of Long Covid complications.Pure Post-Viral POTS?Eric Topol (18:55):Right. Now, before we get into the treatments, I want to just segment this a bit. Can you get pure POTS that is no Long Covid just POTS, or as you implied that usually there's some coalescence of symptoms with the usual Long Covid symptoms and POTS added to that?Svetlana Blitshteyn (19:21):So the studies have shown for us that about 40% of patients with POTS have post-infectious onset, which means more than a half doesn't. And so of course you can have POTS from other causes and the most common is puberty, hormonal change, the most common age of onset is about 13, 14 years old and 80% of women of childbearing age and other triggers or pregnancy, hormonal change again, surgery, trauma like concussion, post-concussion, autonomic dysfunction is quite common.Eric Topol (20:05):So these are pure POTS without the other symptoms. Is that what you're saying in these examples?Svetlana Blitshteyn (20:12):Well, it's a very good question. It depends what you mean by pure POTS, and I have seen especially cardiologists cling to this notion that there is pure POTS and then there is POTS plus. Now I think majority of people don't have pure POTS and by pure POTS I think you mean those who have postural tachycardia and nothing else. And so most patients, I think 80% have a number of symptoms. So in my clinic I almost never see someone who is otherwise well and all they have is postural tachycardia and then they're having a great time. Some patients do exist like that, they tend to be athletic, they can still function in their life, but majority of patients come to us with symptoms like dizziness, like fatigue, like exercise intolerance, decline in functioning. So I think there is this notion that while there is pure POTS, let me just fix the postural tachycardia and the patient will be great and we all want that. Certainly sometimes I get lucky and when I give the patient a beta blocker or ivabradine or a calcium channel blocker, sometimes we use it, certainly they get better, but most patients don't have that because the disability that drives POTS isn't actually postural tachycardia, it's all that other stuff and a lot of it's neurologic, which is why I put this as a central nervous system disorder.TreatmentsEric Topol (21:58):Yeah, that's so important. Now you mentioned the treatments. These are drug treatments, largely beta blockers, and can you tell us what's the success rate with the various treatments that you use in your clinic?Svetlana Blitshteyn (22:13):So the first thing we'll have to mention is that there are no FDA approved therapies for POTS, just like there are no FDA approved therapies for Long Covid. And so, everything we use is off label. Now, oftentimes people think that because it wasn't evidence-based and there are no big trials. We do have trials, we do have trials for beta blockers and we know they work. We have trials for Midodrine and we know that's working. We also have fludrocortisone, which is a medication that improves sodium and water resorption. So we know that there are certain things we've used for decades that have been working, and I think that's what I was trying to convey in this paper of post Covid autonomic dysfunction assessment and treatment is that when you see these patients, and you can be of any specialty, you can be in primary care, you can be a physiatrist, a cardiologist, there are things to do, there are medications to use.Svetlana Blitshteyn (23:20):Oftentimes colleagues would say, well, you diagnose them and then what do you treat them with? And then I can refer them to table six in that paper and say, look at this list. You have a lot of options to try. We have the first line treatment options, which are your beta blockers and Midodrine and Florinef and Mestinon. And then we have the second line therapies you can choose from the stimulants are there Provigil, Nuvigil, Wellbutrin, Droxidopa is FDA approved for neurogenic orthostatic hypotension. Now we don't use it commonly, but it can still be tried in people whose blood pressures are falling on your exam. So we have a number of medications to choose from in addition to non-pharmacologic therapies.Eric Topol (24:14):Right now, I'm going to get to the non-pharmacologic in a moment, but the beta blocker, which is kind of the first one to give, it's a little bit paradoxical. It makes people tired, and these people already are, don't have much energy. Is the success rate of beta blocker good enough that that should be the first thing to try?Svetlana Blitshteyn (24:35):Absolutely. The first line medication treatment options are beta blockers. Why? Okay, why are they working? They're not only working to reduce heart rate, but they may also decrease sympathetic overactivity, which is the driving mechanism of autonomic dysfunction. And when you reduce that overactivity, even your energy level can improve. Now, the key here is to use a low dose. A lot of the time I see this mistake being done where the doctor is just prescribing 25 milligrams of metoprolol twice a day. Well, this is too high. And so, the key is to use very low doses and to use them and then increase them as needed. We have a bunch of beta blockers to choose from. We have the non-selective propranolol that you can use when someone maybe has a migraine headache or significant anxiety, they penetrate the brain, and we have non-selected beta blockers like atenolol, metoprolol and others that you can use at half a tablet. Sometimes I start my patients at quarter of tablet and then go from there. So low doses will block tachycardia, decrease sympathetic overactivity, and in many cases will allow the patient to remain upright for longer periods of time.Eric Topol (26:09):That's really helpful. Now, one of the other things, I believe it's approved in Canada, not in the US, is a vagal neuromodulation device. And I wonder, it seems like it would be nice to avoid drugs if there was a device that worked really well. Is there anything that is in the hopper for that?Svetlana Blitshteyn (26:32):Yeah, absolutely. Non-invasive vagus nerve stimulator is in clinical trials for POTS and other autonomic disorders, but we have it FDA for treatment of migraine and cluster headaches, so it's already approved here and it can also be helpful for chronic pain and gastroparesis. So there are studies on mice that show that with the application of noninvasive vagus nerve stimulator, there is reduction of pro-inflammatory cytokines. So here is this very important connection that comes from Kevin Tracey's work that showed inflammatory reflex, and that's a reflex between the vagus nerve and the immune system. So when we talk about sympathetic overactivity, we need to also think about that. That's a mechanism for pro-inflammatory state and possibly prothrombotic state. So anything that decreases sympathetic overactivity and enhancing parasympathetic tone is going to be good for you.Eric Topol (27:51):Now, let's go over to, I mean, I'm going to get into this body brain axis in a moment because there's another part of the story here that's becoming more interesting, fascinating, in fact every day. But before I do that, you mentioned the small fiber neuropathy. Is there a specific treatment for that or is that just something that is just an added dimension of the problem without a specific treatment available?Svetlana Blitshteyn (28:21):Yeah, we certainly have treatment for small fiber neuropathy. We have symptomatic treatment for neuropathic pain, and these medications are gabapentin, pregabalin, amitriptyline and low dose naltrexone that have been gaining popularity. We used that before the pandemic. We used low dose naltrexone for people with chronic pain related to joint hypermobility. And so, we have symptomatic, we also have patches and creams and all kinds of topical applications for people with neuropathic pain. Then we also have, we try to go for the root cause, right? So the number one cause of small fiber neuropathy in the United States is diabetes. And certainly, you need to control hyperglycemia and in some patients you only need a pre-diabetic state, not even full diabetes to already have peripheral neuropathy. So you want to control blood glucose level first and foremost. Now then we have a big category of autoimmune and immune mediated causes, and that's where it gets very interesting because practical experience from many institutions and many neurologists worldwide have shown that when you give a subset of patients with autoimmune small fiber neuropathy, immunotherapy like IVIG, a lot of patients feel significantly better. And so, I think paralleling our field in dysautonomia and POTS, we are looking forward to immunotherapy being more mainstream rather than exception from the rule because access and insurance coverage is a huge barrier for clinicians and patients, but that may be a very effective treatment options for treatment refractory patients whose symptoms do not improve with symptomatic treatment.Eric Topol (30:38):Now, with all these treatments that are on the potential menu to try, and of course sometimes it really is a trial and error to get one that hopefully works for Covid, Long Covid, what is the natural history? Does this persist over years, or can it be completely resolved?Svetlana Blitshteyn (31:00):That's a great question. Everyday Long Covid patients ask me, and I think what we are seeing is that there is a good subset of patients for whom Long Covid is going to be temporary and they will improve and even recover close to normal. Now remember that original case series of patients that I reported in early 2021 based on my 2020 experience in that 20 patient case series, very few recovered, three patients recovered back to normal. Most patients had lingering ongoing chronic symptoms. So of course mine is a kind of a referral bias where I get to see the sickest patients and it looks to be like it's a problem of chronic illness variety. But I also think there is going to be a subset of patients and then we have to study them. We need to study who got better and who didn't. And people improve significantly and some even recover close to normal. But I think certain symptoms like maybe fatigue and heat intolerance could persist because those are very heavily rooted in autonomic dysfunction.Vaccination and POTSEric Topol (32:26):Yeah, well, that's something that's sobering and why we need trials and to go after this in much more intensity and priority. Now the other issue here is while with Covid, this is almost always the virus infection, there have been reports of the vaccine inducing POTS and Long Covid, and so what does that tell us?Svetlana Blitshteyn (32:54):Well, that's a big, big topic. Years ago, I was the first one to report a patient with POTS that was developed after HPV vaccine Gardasil. Now, at that time I was a young neurologist. Then the patient came to me saying she was an athlete saying two weeks after Gardasil vaccine, she developed these very disabling symptoms. And I thought it was very interesting and unique and I thought, well, I'll just publish it. I never knew that this would be the start of a whole different discussion and debate on HPV vaccines. There were multiple reports from numerous countries, Denmark, Mexico, Japan. Japan actually suspended their mass HPV vaccination program. So somehow it became a big deal. Now many people, including my colleagues didn't agree that POTS can begin POTS, small fiber neuropathy, other adverse neurologic events can begin after vaccination in general. And so, this was a topic that was widely debated and the European medical agencies came back saying, we don't have enough evidence.Svetlana Blitshteyn (34:20):Of course, we all want to have a good cancer vaccine. And it was amazing to watch this Covid vaccine issue unfolding where more than one study now have shown that indeed you can develop POTS after Covid vaccines and that the rate of POTS after Covid vaccines is actually slightly higher than before vaccination. So I think it was kind of interesting to see this unfold where I was now invited by Nature Journal to write an editorial on this very topic. So I think it's important to mention that sometimes POTS can begin after vaccination and however, I've always advised my patients to be vaccinated even now. Even now, I have patients who are unvaccinated and I say, I'm worried about you getting a second Covid or third without these vaccines, so please get vaccinated. Vaccines are very important public health measure, but we also have to acknowledge that sometimes people develop POTS, small fiber neuropathy and other complications after Covid vaccines.Prominence of the Vagus Nerve Eric Topol (35:44):Yeah, I think this is important to emphasize here because of all vaccinations can lead to neurologic sequelae. I mean look at Guillain-Barre, which is even more worrisome and that brings in the autoimmune component I think. And of course, the Covid vaccines and boosters have a liability in a small, very small percentage of people to do this. And that can't be discounted because it's a small risk and it's always this kind of risk benefit story when you're getting vaccinated that you are again spotlighting. Now gets us to the biggest thing of all besides the practical pearls you've been coming up with to help everyone in patients and clinicians. In recent weeks, there's been explosion of these intra body circuits. There was a paper from Columbia last week that taught us about the body-brain circuits between the vagus nerve and the caudal Nucleus of the Solitary Tract (cNST) of the brain and how this is basically a master switch for the immune system. And so, the vagus nerve there and then you have this gut to brain story, which is the whole gut microbiome is talking to the brain through the vagus nerve. I mean, everything comes down to the vagus nerve. So you've been working all your career and now everything's coming into this vagus nerve kind of final common pathway that's connecting all sorts of parts of the body that we didn't truly understand before. So could you comment about this because it's pretty striking.Svetlana Blitshteyn (37:34):Absolutely. I think this pandemic is highlighting the pitfalls of everything we didn't know but should have in the past. And I think this is one of them. How important is the autonomic nervous system and how important is the vagus nerve that is the longest nerve in the body and carries the parasympathetic outflow. And I think this is a very important point that we have to move forward. We cannot stop at the autonomic knowledge that we've gained thus far. Autonomic neurology and autonomic medicine has always been the field with fellowship, and we have American Autonomic Society as well. But I think now is a great time to move forward and study how the autonomic nervous system communicates with the immunologic system. And again, Kevin Tracey's work was groundbreaking in the sense that he connected the dots and realized that if you stimulate the vagus nerve and the parasympathetic outflow, then you can reduce pro-inflammatory cytokines and that he has shown that you can also improve or significantly such disorders like rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune inflammatory conditions.Svetlana Blitshteyn (39:03):Now we have the invasive vagus nerve stimulation procedures, and quite honestly, we don't want that to be the mainstream because you don't want to have a neurosurgery as you go to treatment. Of course, you want the non-invasive vagus nerve stimulation being the mainstream therapy. But I think a lot of research needs to happen and it's going to be a very much a multidisciplinary field where we'll have immunology, translational sciences, we'll have neurosurgeons like Kevin Tracey, we'll have rheumatologists, neurologists, cardiologists. We'll have a multidisciplinary collaborative group to further understand what's going on in these autoimmune inflammatory disorders, including those of post-infectious origin.Eric Topol (40:02):I certainly agree with all of your points there. I mean, I'm really struck now because the immune system is front and center with so much of what we're seeing with of course Long Covid, but also things like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and across the board with metabolic diseases. And here we have this connection with your sweet spot of the autonomic nervous system, and we have these pathways that had not been delineated before. I didn't know too much about the cNST of the brain to be such an important connect point for this. And I wonder, so here's another example. Concurrently the glucagon-like peptide 1 (GLP-1) drugs have this pronounced effect on reducing inflammation in the body before the weight loss and in the brain through the gut-brain axis, as we recently discussed with Dan Drucker, have you ever tried a GLP-1 drug or noticed that GLP-1 drugs help people with Long Covid or the POTS problem?Svetlana Blitshteyn (41:12):So I have heard anecdotally people with Long Covid using these drugs for other reasons, saying I feel much better. In fact, I recently had a woman who said, I have never been more productive than I am now on this medication. And she used the word productive, which is important because non-productive implies so many things. It's the brain fog, it's the physical fatigue, it's the mental fatigue. So I think we are, first of all, I want to say, I always said that the brain is not separate from the body. And neurologic manifestations of systemic disease is a very big untapped area. And I think it's not going to be surprising for me to see that these drugs can improve many brain parameters and possibly even neuroinflammation. We don't know, but we certainly need to study this.Eric Topol (42:15):Yeah, it's interesting because statins had been tried for multiple sclerosis, I think maybe not with very clear cut benefit effects, but here you have a new class of drugs which eventually are going to be in pills and not just one receptor but triple receptor, much more potent than what we're seeing in the clinic today. And you wonder if we're onto an anti-inflammatory for the brain and body that could help in this. I mean, we have a crisis here with Long Covid in POTS without a remedy, without adequate resources that are being dedicated to the clinical trials that are so vital to execute and find treatments. And that's just one candidate of many. I mean, obviously there's so many possible ones on the list. So if you could design studies now based on your extraordinary rich experience with Long Covid and POTS, what would you go after right now? What do you think is the thing that's, would it be to evaluate more of these noninvasive, non-pharmacologic treatments like the vagal nerve stimulation, or are there particular drugs that you find intriguing?Svetlana Blitshteyn (43:33):Well, a few years ago we published a case series of patients with severe POTS and nothing helped them, but they improved significantly and some even made close to recovery improvement and were able to return to their careers because they were treated with immunotherapy. So the paper is a subcutaneous immunoglobulin and plasmapheresis and the improvement was remarkable. I say there was one physician there who could not start her residency. She got sick in medical school and could not start her residency due to severe POTS and no amount of beta blockers, Midodrine or Florinef helped her get out the house and out of bed. And therefore, sheer luck, she was able to get subcutaneous immunoglobulin and she improved significantly, finished her residency and is now a practicing physician. So I think when we have these cases, it's important to bring them to scientific community. And I think I'm very excited that hopefully soon we're going to have trials of immunotherapy and immunomodulating treatment options for patients with Long Covid and hopefully POTS in general, I believe in novel, but also repurposed, repurposed treatment.Svetlana Blitshteyn (45:01):IVIG has been used for decades, so it's not a new medication. And contrary to popular belief, it's actually quite safe. It is expensive, it's a blood product, but we are very familiar with it in medicine and neurology. So I think we have to look forward to everything. And as I tell my patients, I'm always aggressive with medications when they come to me and their doctor said something like, well, let's see, it's going to go away on its own or keep doing your salt and fluids intake or wear compression sucks. Well, they're already doing it. It's not helping. And now it's a good time to try everything we have. And I would like to have more. I would like to have immunotherapy available. I would like to have immunosuppressants even tried potentially, and maybe we'll be able to try medication for possible viral persistence. Let's see how that works out. We have other inflammatory modalities out there that can potentially give us the tools. You see, I think being that it's a multifactorial disorder, that I don't think it's going to be one thing for everyone. We need to have a toolbox where we're going to choose what's best for your specific case because when we talk about Long Covid, we have to remember there are many different phenotypes under that umbrella.A Serious MatterEric Topol (46:40):Now, before we wrap up, I mean I guess I wanted to emphasize how there are clinicians out there who discount Long Covid in POTS. They think it's something that is a figment of imagination. Now, on the other hand, you and I especially, you know that people are totally disabled. Certain days they can't even get out of bed, they can't get back to their work, their life. And this can go on and on as we've been discussing. So can you set it straight about, I mean, you are seeing these people every day. What do you have to say to our fellow colleague physicians who tend to minimize and say, this is extremely rare, if it even exists, and that these people have some type of psychiatric problem. And it's really, it's distressing of course, but could you speak to that?Svetlana Blitshteyn (47:39):Absolutely. So as I always say, Long Covid is not a psychiatric or psychological disorder, and it's also not a functional neurologic disorder. Now, having said that, as I just mentioned, brain is not separate from the body. And neurologic manifestations of systemic disease are numerous. We just had a paper out on neurologic manifestations of mast cell activation syndrome. So certainly some patients will develop psychiatric manifestations and some patients will develop major depression, anxiety, OCD or functional neurologic disorder. But those are complications of systemic disease, meaning that you cannot diagnose a patient with anxiety and send them off to a psychologist or a psychiatrist without diagnosing POTS and treating it. And in many cases, when you approach an underlying systemic disorder with the right medications, like dysautonomia for example, all of the symptoms including psychological and psychiatric, tend to improve as well. And certainly, there is going to be a small subset of Long Covid patients whose primary problem is psychiatric.Svetlana Blitshteyn (49:01):And I think that's totally fine. That is not to say that all Long Covid is psychiatric. Some will have significant psychiatric manifestations. I mean, there are cases of post Covid psychosis and autoimmune encephalitis and all kinds of psychiatric problems that people may develop, but I think we can't really stratify well, this is physiologic and this word functional that I'm not a fan of. This is physiologic as we see it on MRI. But here, because we don't see anything on MRI, it means you are fine and can just exercise your way out of it. So I think with this Long Covid, hopefully we'll get answers as to the pathophysiology, but also most importantly, hopefully we'll get these therapies that millions of people before Covid pandemic were looking for.Eric Topol (50:02):Well, I just want to thank you because you were onto this well over 10, 15 years before there was such a thing as Covid, you've dedicated your career to this. These are some of the most challenging patients to try to help and has to be vexing, that you can't get their symptoms resolved no less the underlying problem. And we're indebted to you, Svetlana, because you've really been ahead of the curve here. You were writing a patient book before there were such things as patient activists in Long Covid, as we've seen, which have been so many of the heroes of this whole problem. But thank you for all the work you do. We'll continue to follow. We learned from you about POTS and Long Covid from your work and really appreciate everything you've done. Thank you.Svetlana Blitshteyn (50:58):Thank you so much, Eric, for having me. As I said, it's a great honor for me to be here. Remarkable, amazing. And thank you for all this work that you're doing and being an advocate for our field because we always need great champions to help us move forward in these complicated disorders.********************************The Ground Truths newsletters and podcasts are all free, open-access, without ads.Voluntary paid subscriptions all go to support Scripps Research. Many thanks for that—they greatly helped fund our summer internship programs for 2023 and 2024.Thanks to my producer Jessica Nguyen and Sinjun Balabanoff tor audio and video support at Scripps ResearchNote: you can select preferences to receive emails about newsletters, podcasts, or all I don't want to bother you with an email for content that you're not interested in. Get full access to Ground Truths at erictopol.substack.com/subscribe

Ep 434: Writing Erotica: A Passionate Journey with Hank Dolworth.Listen in on a literary adventure as I chat with the multifaceted erotica and erotic romance author, Hank Dolworth. We dive deep into the steamy waters of erotic fiction. He's a man who's not just a writer, but a storyteller at heart. Hank, the creative force behind Jackal Publishing, shares his experiences from his first tantalizing reads to becoming a voice in the world of self-published erotica.We explore the intricate dance between characters and plot, the thrills of writing sex scenes, and the delicate balance between fulfilling reader expectations and staying true to one's creative vision. Hank candidly discusses his writing process, revealing how his characters take on lives of their own, steering stories into uncharted territories of desire and intimacy.Listeners will get a peek into Hank's upcoming works, including "A Hot Wife Spring Training," (excerpt in the episode), a tale that promises to be as provocative as it is heartfelt. He also sheds light on the importance of understanding your niche, the power of community in the writing world, and the liberating act of sharing stories freely.Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.A Hot Wife Spring Training book link: https://amzn.to/3w0qevj Hotwife book bundle  https://amzn.to/4aCNGhl Connect with Hank Dolworth: https://read.hankdolworth.com/ Twitter:/X Hank_DolworthJackal Publishing: https://books.jacklpublishing.com/Show notes created by https://headliner.app(01:37) Which way does the harem swing? (02:22) What would you like to share about your own sexuality with readers(09:11) Sometimes I outline, sometimes I don't(10:13) Why did you choose to write erotica? What was that trigger(16:45) Trust can be fully scary when someone has power over you(17:29) Do you have a favorite character or story or book that you have created(25:34) been writing fiction since he was in the military(30:23) I think books reflect our culture, which also shapes us(34:11) What do you consider success for yourself as an author(39:47) You learn from mistakes and you keep moving on. Same thing with success. The good stuff and the bad stuff, it's just data(41:08) What's a typical writing session for you? It varies widely(44:31) I'm currently in the kind of slump.(51:30) Do you have short term and long term goals for writing(57:52) Covid: I read 200 romance novels in 2021(01:02:39) Knowing your niche is important when writing a book(01:14:07) Do you have any other advice for people who want to write eroticaCheck out Ruan's books: https://books.ruanwillowauthor.com/Ruan's Hotwife books: Servicing the College Fence Builders https://books.ruanwillowauthor.com/servicingthecollegefencebuildersanagegaphotwifestory Support the showSubscribe for exclusive episodes: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1599808/subscribeSign up for Ruan's newsletters: https://subscribepage.io/ruanwillowhttps://linktr.ee/RuanWillowRuan's a Manscaped Ambassador get 20% OFF+Free Shipping with promo code RUAN at https://www.manscaped.com/

I want to introduce you to Jann Weeratunga from South Africa who is our guest on this episode. Jann was born and grew up in Lundon. After working as a highway maintenance engineer for 10 years she moved to Sri Lanka where she married and lived for several years. Her husband passed away after they were married for four and a half years, but Jann continued to work and live there until she got the moving urge and ended up living in South Africa.   Jann has always had a deep interest in the para-Olympics. In 2012, while watching the closing ceremony of the London Paralympic Games, Jann was deeply moved by Sir Philip Craven's speech which included The tale of a young boy reading a book and recognizing a man with an eye patch, a hook for a hand, a parrot on his shoulder, and a wooden leg as an Olympian. This imagery sparked a transformative idea within her. Anyone recognize the man as a pirate? Jann did and began to write what is now a series of 10 children's books about Polly the Parrot or Pirate. Jann will tell us Polly's story and how this bird helped to create the Piralympics. This series is all about pirates, all of whom have disabilities and who compete in the “piralympics”.   To date, Jann has written over 40 books for children, some poetry and even books for adults. As she says, writing is a muscle that needs to be developed and exercised daily. This conversation to me is certainly quite inspirational and insightful for all. I hope you enjoy it.   About the Guest:   Jann Weeratunga is an author who firmly believes in the importance of representation and diversity, particularly for the 15% of the population who are often overlooked— the disabled community. In 2012, while watching the closing ceremony of the London Paralympic Games, Jann was deeply moved by Sir Philip Craven's speech. The tale of a young boy reading a book and recognizing a man with an eye patch, a hook for a hand, a parrot on his shoulder, and a wooden leg as an Olympian sparked a transformative idea within her. This powerful moment gave birth to the unique concept and content of the Polly's Piralympics Series (Paralympics for Pirates). Through these books, Jann tackles important themes like disabilities, bullying, and cheating.   However, plagued by self-doubt, Jann's journey faced a roadblock until 2016, when a friend who pushed her to take a leap of faith, reminding her that she would never know unless she published her work. This encouragement marked the beginning of her real journey as an author and Polly's Piralympics was launched in South Africa.   Jann's flagship series, Polly's Piralympics, has garnered tremendous success and continues to thrive, with the tenth book currently in the works. In March 2018, she established the Schools Reading Road Show, a non-profit organization aimed at enhancing literacy among primary school students in South Africa. Alongside her fellow authors, she embarked on a mission to visit schools in various regions, sharing inspiring stories, delivering motivational talks on important topics like "anti-bullying" and "it's okay to be different," and encouraging young learners to explore their own storytelling abilities.   Beyond her writing, Jann founded the Schools Reading Road Show, an organization that promotes literacy and encourages young learners to embrace diversity. She has visited schools, delivered motivational talks, and empowered children to tell their own stories.   Jann's impactful work extends to addressing conferences, conducting workshops, and participating in panels, all aimed at emphasizing the importance of representation and inclusivity. She continues to write Best Seller stories for children, while exploring different creative avenues for adults under her pen name, JE Gallery.   Her works have received several awards and nominations across Africa.   Recognized for her invaluable contributions to the literary landscape, Jann has spoken at the prestigious Embrace Head Teachers Conference in 2018 and 2019. She has also conducted workshops on the significance of reading for young adult pupils, participated in panels at esteemed events such as the JBBF (Jozi Books and Blogs Festival), South African Children's Book Fair, and Kingsmead Book Fair.   In 2020 on the eve of Lockdown, she organised and ran the Bennies Book Fayre for Children. The largest Children's Book fair for children in South Africa. To Date in 2023 she has attended the Zintzomi Storytelling Book Fair and The Johannesburg Festival of Women Writers.   Even amidst the challenges posed by the Covid-19 pandemic, Jann found solace in her writing during the period of isolation. This time allowed her to focus on her craft, resulting in the release of her latest series, Patch's Pirate Pals. The first two books in the series, "Bluebird's New Ship" and "Redhair's Snot Cannonballs," achieved the remarkable feat of becoming Amazon Best Sellers in June and July 2022. ** ** Ways to connect with Jann:   https://www.facebook.com/JannWeeratunga    www.linkedin.com/in/jann-weeratunga-4aa852137   https://www.amazon.com/stores/Jann-Weeratunga/author/B07RPGCF61       About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi, thanks for listening here on unstoppable mindset. We're inclusion diversity in the unexpected meet. Today, we get to travel to South Africa to talk with Jann Weeratunga. I hope I pronounced that reasonably right. And absolutely perfectly. Oh, great. I like to I like to try. Jann is an author. She's created a series around what she calls the piralympics. And we're going to talk about that. But she has a lot of other things to bring into the discussion as well. So I think we're going to have a lot of fun today. So Jann, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here with us.   Jann Weeratunga ** 02:05 Thank you, Michael. We're really glad to join you.   Michael Hingson ** 02:07 Well, why don't we start at I love to do with kind of learning a little bit about the earlier Jann growing up and all that sort of stuff.   Jann Weeratunga ** 02:16 Okay. I was born in London. I grew up in London, schooled in London. I eventually got married and moved out to Sri Lanka, hence my very peculiar surname. And I was out there for about 10 years, my husband passed away. And from there, I moved into the Middle East. I taught for a year there and then came over to South Africa, and I've been here for 17 years now.   Michael Hingson ** 02:49 Wow. What? What made you decide to go to South Africa? Well,   Jann Weeratunga ** 02:55 I was hoping it seemed like a good idea at the time. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, it was after the tsunami I had. I'd spent two years working on the east coast of Sri Lanka, I set up my own NGO. And I met people from all over the world. And on one occasion, we'd actually been down the coast this way and driving back and the army stopped us and sort of said, Did you know that there's a tsunami warning? Why are you driving around and of course, where we had been, it had just been water and monkeys and us and that was about it. And in the car, there was myself, British, a friend who was from South Africa and another friend who was from Australia, and another friend who was from America. And it dawned on us, literally, as we were explaining who we were and where we were from, that we were four ladies from four different countries from four different continents. So yeah, it was it was a very different sort of thing. And from there I I made friends with them. And then one of them sort of said, Look, you know, would you like to come and visit South Africa? You know, I've I'm just finishing off here and my time is in Sri Lanka is finishing would you like to come visit? So I thought, Okay, why not? I've never been South Africa. And that's what brought me here.   Michael Hingson ** 04:28 Pretty, pretty interesting scenario all the way around on but you never thought that was going to happen. Did you   Jann Weeratunga ** 04:36 know I didn't. But, you know, life has a habit of sort of just taking you where it wants to. So yeah, it   Michael Hingson ** 04:44 was good. So we're in South Africa, are you?   Jann Weeratunga ** 04:48 I'm actually in Johannesburg. So yeah, so inland about 1000 kilometers from the in gold country as they call it. eaglet and So yeah, I live up in Johannesburg.   Michael Hingson ** 05:03 So you, you have definitely moved around in the world. Have you been to America before?   Jann Weeratunga ** 05:10 I actually haven't. I sort of came out of Britain and turned left instead of turning right. And I never got to the States or Canada is actually one country I would love to go to. It's on my bucket list, along with Iceland and a few others. But yeah, I sort of got as far as as far east as Sri Lanka and as far as South and South Africa. So you know, all the bits in between there?   Michael Hingson ** 05:39 Well, I hope you do get to come to America. It's a it's a large country. fairly large physically, but certainly a lot of different cultures and different kinds of ways of life, depending on what state you're in, and, and so on everything from relatively new in California, which became a state in 1850, compared to some of the other states like Massachusetts, in the other colonies much earlier. And I love to travel around America to see the various different kinds of pupils, the different cultures that have all assimilated into this one really great country, which is, which is a lot of fun to do. And it's really enjoyable to to see the different states and everyone's a little bit different.   Jann Weeratunga ** 06:25 Okay, okay. Yeah, no, it's very big. I sort of looked at Washington State and thought that was a place I'd really like to go to, because it looks very green, and lots and lots of trees. So, you know, I'd like to travel around America if I get the opportunity. So you never know, hey, hey,   Michael Hingson ** 06:42 you never know. Well, I'm actually going to be in Washington State next month. So it'll be it'll be kind of find I've been there before and love going up to Washington. I love California as well. But I've enjoyed going to all 50 states now and just found a lot of wonderful stuff to see and do in all of those various states. So I can't complain a bit. I find it to be rich and, and exciting. But I've been to a number of countries. I have not been to England, I've been to Ireland, and I've been to New Zealand. And of course, I've been to Canada, and to the Netherlands. And in Japan and Korea, but I haven't really been to South Africa. I'd love to come and speak there some time. If the opportunity ever arises. I think it would be fun to do. And I've been to Israel. I went to Israel in August because I was there to be with accessibly for a week. And so again, I love going to a variety of different countries and experiencing and getting the chance to be a part of other cultures. So it's great. Well, so you went to college in England?   Jann Weeratunga ** 07:57 I sort of Yeah, I was a bit of a dropout. Yeah, it some. I passed with straight A's. My first two years and then I just decided, I don't know, I don't know what I decided. But I got a job. And I moved up very, very quickly, and I got paid way too much money. So I just decided that I wasn't going to go back to college.   Michael Hingson ** 08:24 What was your job?   Jann Weeratunga ** 08:27 I was actually a highway maintenance engineer. I actually built roads.   Michael Hingson ** 08:31 Wow. That's an interesting and different job. No, you enjoyed it.   Jann Weeratunga ** 08:39 I did actually it was your same thing. Two days on the trot, which was lovely. And I like sort of variation. I don't like sort of being stuck in an office. That's not really me. So yeah, I really I actually did, I really enjoyed it. And I worked with a great bunch of people. All men, I was the only woman I was the first woman into the department. So that was a little challenging to begin with. But they got used to me and yeah, and then eventually I left there to get married and go out to Sri Lanka.   Michael Hingson ** 09:13 So how long did you have that job? 10 years. Wow. So you you obviously did enjoy it?   Jann Weeratunga ** 09:20 Yeah, no, it was good.   Michael Hingson ** 09:22 So what do you do as a highway maintenance engineer?   Jann Weeratunga ** 09:25 Well, you basically dig up the road and relay it in in sort of very much layman's terms. I actually was responsible for a section of the a 40 which is the sort of London to Oxford road. I was responsible for a section of that. And yeah, just making sure that everything on it was working well. It was supposed to it was kept clean. The lights were on. The Galley pots were cleaned out, there were no potholes. At one point we even managed to put a new footbridge across it which was They're different. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 10:02 that's definitely a different thing to do. But certainly I can understand why that would be part of your job. Yeah, yeah. Then what took you to Sri Lanka.   Jann Weeratunga ** 10:14 Um, my best friend from school was actually Sri Lankan. And we'd gone there when I was when I literally just finished my A levels. And we went out there for a trip. She came over to Ireland to see what Ireland was like. And I went over to Sri Lanka with her, you know, the parents thought it was good, sort of cultural exchanges for us. And I really liked the country. And then sort of 1010 odd years later, I hadn't taken any holiday, I still run a scout troop. So every weekend that I had free and my suppose it holidays, whereas he spent scouting. And I just I got to the point, I was very, very tired. And I needed a break. And her dad actually said, Well, why don't you go back to Sri Lanka? You know, lots of people out there still. You kept in touch go out there. And I did. And then I met my husband and six months of chewing and froing. And eventually, we he popped the question, and we got married, and I moved out there.   Michael Hingson ** 11:21 I'm assuming your parents were okay with that.   Jann Weeratunga ** 11:24 The Not really. She was the other side of the world as far as they were. Yeah. And it was way too far away. But he made sure that every year I actually went back to the UK for, you know, I actually chose your Christmas. Because that's a very family orientated time for us. And unfortunately, he passed away after we'd been married about four and a half years. But I continue to stay out there for another six. The tsunami hit during that time. I also worked as the club secretary for what was at the time, the only the third golf course in the country rated in the top 10 in Southeast Asia, which was the Victoria golf club sat on struggling. So for Duncan golf union, which is actually where I was in 911. Yeah, I was actually at a golf meeting. And somebody said, Excuse me, I think you should all come and see the television. And we watched the plane. The second plane hit. So yeah, it's for those ones. We know exactly where you were in what you were doing. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:41 most, most people do. Most people do remember that. And I've heard so many fascinating and interesting stories about where people were or why they ended up not being in the tower that day, although they were scheduled to be and even up on higher floors. It is one of those amazing things and there's so many different stories. And a lot of people have stories to tell about it, which is pretty interesting.   Jann Weeratunga ** 13:08 Yeah. So the world stop moments a little bit like, I suppose, the shooting of JFK and, and of course, COVID More recently, you know, I think everybody knows where they were and what they were doing during COVID. Yeah, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 13:26 we stayed home. My wife had rheumatoid arthritis. And so her immune system was suppressed and she took medication for it that helped the pain, but it did keep the immune system down. So we chose without any qualms at all to stay home, and basically locked down. We were blessed. We could could get things brought in through things like GrubHub and other things like that. And I did my shopping or an our shopping through a service called Instacart. That would bring things and it worked out really well. And we live very close to a country club here in Spring Valley lake in Victorville. And we joined a social members of the club. And although they didn't deliver food, they had food available that you could go down and get, but we were friends with the general manager. And he said, anytime you want food, just call him we'll bring it and they were. So we were we were blessed. That   Jann Weeratunga ** 14:21 sounds really, really good. It's actually something it changed shopping, and how we shop in South Africa. Prior to COVID, everybody used to just go to the supermarket or go to the shops. And we didn't have any delivery services. It didn't exist in South Africa. And it's actually created a whole industry of young men on motorbikes that deliver and I know in the UK, they had deliveries, but it sort of, after about a year it fizzled out and people got back to going shopping, you know, whereas here It is carried on, and people still get their shopping delivered from the local supermarket with these little guys. It's good dude outside your house. And there they are. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 15:11 we have their word delivery services prior to prior to COVID. But it certainly did pick up a lot in COVID. And after COVID. And you're right, it's changed a lot of things. And we can view that as a positive thing or not. But I think overall, people are starting to discover, even with working that there's no need to be in the office five days a week, eight or more hours a day that it's healthier, to let people do some work at home, and do some of their work outside of the office.   Jann Weeratunga ** 15:49 Absolutely, absolutely. But I must admit, I think I saw more dogs being walked around my blog than I had ever seen. People tend not to take the dogs out too much. Yeah. They were very, very big plots, and the dogs run around on those. But of course, that was the only excuse we had initially to actually be able to leave our properties. So all the dogs had their little walkies on a regular basis every day. So that was quite interesting as well.   Michael Hingson ** 16:18 I've been to places in Europe and also talk to to other people who live there. And I guess it was fairly common, even well before COVID, to walk dogs and even see dogs go into stores or restaurants and so on. And it was a common thing. But the difference between there and here and correct me if I'm wrong. But the difference is that most all of those dogs were well behaved and they were controlled by their people.   Michael Hingson ** 16:51 Generally, yes, generally. And   Michael Hingson ** 16:54 unfortunately, here, people just think they should be able to take their dogs, whether they're well behaved or not. And all too often, we see that dogs are not as well behaved as they should be. That creates a problem for those of us who use dogs like guide, like I use our my guide dog Alamo as a guide dog who's trained. And then they tried to put restrictions and has put some restrictions on us, because of those other people that they wouldn't really just deal with them appropriately. So it is it is a challenge. Yeah,   Jann Weeratunga ** 17:25 no, I know, from obviously the UK and Ireland, because my mum's from Ireland, that, you know, taking the dogs out for a walk is commonplace. I mean, dad would always take the dog for a walk around the block at night, just you know, before we went to bed. And it was my brother and my job to sort of walk the dog down to the park and give them a good run during the day. So I think you know, so walking dogs, it was it was it was good, actually, because it's a good form of exercise as well. And, you know, I mean, I would often sort of pop the dog into the car, drive up to the forest and go for a walk for two to three hours, you know, and then come back with a very tired dog. So yeah, well, that's   Michael Hingson ** 18:07 that's a good thing. Yeah. And sometimes attire, Jann, but but still, that's probably.   Jann Weeratunga ** 18:14 Yeah, I wasn't bad. In those days. It was bit younger. But the Yeah. Well, I   Michael Hingson ** 18:20 know one of the things about you is that you, you write you're an author, when did you start writing?   Jann Weeratunga ** 18:25 I think I've always had an interest in poetry, and sort of wrote little details here and that sort of thing. But it was more or less when I came to South Africa, we owned a restaurant down in Nisa, which is on the coast, in very beautiful part of the country is just above the sort of Jitsi, karma, forest area. And I actually lived in a wooden cabin in the forest, where I didn't spend much time there because I actually spent sort of like, six and a half days at the restaurant running it. But when I had spare time, I would actually just sort of sit on the deck. And just let my mind wander. And I started with the poetry. And then I started writing in seriously children's stories in 2012, which was the start of the Paralympics.   Michael Hingson ** 19:27 So love to hear more about that. What got you started doing that? And well, let me ask first, did you publish any of your poetry?   Jann Weeratunga ** 19:38 Would you believe I actually only published my poetry last year? And that was because some friends had basically seen some of the poems and sort of said, Why haven't you published the and I think it's the difference between being judged by your peers and being judged by children. So so most of them My writing is actually for children. But my poetry is obviously for adults. And funnily enough, I actually took a couple of books with me, I went back to the UK in May to see my family. And I took a couple of books, and gave them as gifts to friends. And they actually sort of said, well, would you read a couple of poems for us, and so I read a couple of them, and they were in tears. And I didn't think my poetry would have that much of an effect on people. So it was quite an eye opener for me. The other adult work I've done is I actually write adult short stories, dark stories, unfortunately. I know a couple of other authors that do the same. They write poetry, children's books, and dark, short stories. And I think it's a release from writing children's stuff all the time is to write sort of the dark adult stuff. But I've actually not that I'm not public, I've got two books ready to go. They've been sitting there for a couple of years. And, and yeah, and there's just a block there that the   Michael Hingson ** 21:10 public, are they going to be dark?   Jann Weeratunga ** 21:14 They are dark, all the short stories are very dark. And yes, but they're there. I mean, one of one of them is actually a monologue, for example of a character who has schizophrenia. And so they're obviously talking to themselves. And they're on a plane. They I say they because it was it's one person is on a plane, and the quieter voice of the two has actually arranged to be euthanized in Switzerland, which is legal. Without the other one, knowing what the other side of the venue knowing. And it's this, this monologue, and that's all it is, is this conversation the whole way through the story. And a few people that have read it have been, I think, quite shocked, because it's not the sort of usual happy clappy stuff that I wrote for kids. Yeah. And they were saying, Okay, well, when is it publishing? Have you got any more? And can we read it? So sorry about that thing? I can't stop that.   Michael Hingson ** 22:26 Look at JK Rowling. You know, she wrote the Harry Potter series, and now she's writing the Cormoran Strike series. And I don't know that I would say they're, they're darker, although I think the last Harry Potter book that she wrote was, was darker than the others. But she clearly throughout both series is a mystery writer. Because in one real sense, Harry Potter is all about mystery is being a mystery. Just the various things that go through it.   Jann Weeratunga ** 22:58 Yeah, I think the interesting thing with her work is the fact that it sort of it crossed genres. Yeah. And it was the first of all really strong, young adult series that came out really strong. And I think it defined it defined that that genre completely, you know, all those that don't know, young adult is basically stories that don't contain sex, or explicit violence as in blood, guts and gore type of thing. So So, and it's actually turned out to be a very popular genre, because a lot of people, they don't necessarily want that. But they want a good story, they will, you know, they don't want to read children's stories. They want to read adult stories, but they don't want that side of it. So it's quite interesting how it's developed.   Michael Hingson ** 23:58 Well, I will say any number of adults like them, too. I would love to, I would love to see more Harry Potter books. But there is a new series that's written by an American about one of his sons, James Potter, and five books have come out in that series, and they're pretty good. And again, there's some good mysteries in them. Well, so what got you started writing children's books and the pirate Olympics and so on. I'd love to hear that story.   Jann Weeratunga ** 24:30 Okay, I have always loved watching the Paralympics more than the Olympics. Right from a very young child. I was glued to the TV for the Paralympics. And 12 was the London Olympics, which I personally feel changed people's views towards disabilities in general. I think was a big leap forward for the disabled community at that particular point. But for me personally, it was, so Philip Craven, who's paraplegic himself was giving the closing speech. And he was chatting away and sort of saying, you know, there was this mother with her son, and they were reading a book. And in the book, there was a character and he had a patch over one eye, a hook for a hand, and a wooden leg. And the mother turned around and she said to the boy, my boy, who's this? And he said, Well, he's got one eye, one arm, one leg, he must be a Paralympian. And it was like one of those light bulb moments you get you know, you you don't think they exist. But it but actually it really did exist for me. And I suddenly thought, hang on a minute. Because he was talking about the pirates in Treasure Island. I thought pirates, Paralympics. Hang on a minute. There's something here. So I googled, and I Googled, and there was nothing, nobody had written anything. There was no parallel drawn between pirates and Paralympics. So I started. I spoke to a friend and they and I said, Well, there's nothing out there. Why is nobody written this story, you know? And they said, Well, why don't you write that story? So I did. And then I sat on it. Again, I think fear of failure as much as anything else fear of judgment. Being a bit dyslexic, it's sort of, I got really knocked by my English teacher at school. And so I lacked the confidence to actually pump in a publicize something. So or publish something. So I sat on it until 2016. And of course, the Olympics was round again. And the Paralympics were around again. And I found her and said, Come on your book. Enough now it's got to go out. And so I did I put the first one out and it was very well received and I had a couple of very very young readers that read it me young eight year old turned around to me and said, is Polly real? A Poly is a parrot that was born with one I stolen from her nest in Africa, ends up in Scotland where she's rescued by Captain hiker pirate and she learns to become a pirate. And and so I turned around, and it's a little bit like those sort of questions about you know, is Father Christmas or Santa Claus real. And you never burst a child's bubble. You never ever, in my, that's my rules. You never destroy childhood. You allow a child to be a child for as long as they need to be. And so I chatted to him and I said, How many parents are there in the world? And he said, Ah, auntie, there must be millions. I said yes, because over here they everyday call everybody Auntie's. If you go into a school, they'll call you and your listing they call your auntie, or uncle. And then I said, and do you think any of them are called Polly? He sat down for a moment, he said, I reckon there must be I said, Well, there you go. You've answered your own question, haven't you? So that was how Polly was created. And Polly creates the the Paralympics and they get up to all sorts of things, but they like made me realize Hang on. I mean, I need to actually do a little bit of a backstory here as to the story about Polly is the first one I wrote was just all about the sort of the actual games themselves you know, there's a master chef competition and there's a walk the plank and this time, the rigging gymnastics and what have you. And then I wrote the backstory, which was how they discovered the prosthetics. So my parents have blades and racing wheelchairs and prosthetic hands. And yeah, they they get up to all sorts of antics and lots of fun. So   Michael Hingson ** 29:26 you do you publish your own books, or do you have a publisher?   Jann Weeratunga ** 29:33 For these this set, I published my own books. I had a publisher for a book I wrote. I actually headed up during lockdown. I had it up nosology called locked down behind the mask. So I had a publisher that because for me, when everybody was wearing masks, it reminded me of when I lived in the Middle East and the burqa, and all you would see is the lady's eyes. So I had a publisher for that one. But otherwise I self published. So they all went up on Amazon. I'm on the 10th. One at the moment. The Halloween Paralympics is finished, but that won't be out until next year. So there'll be two others come out before that one, so, but there's seven on Amazon at the moment.   Michael Hingson ** 30:27 So you'll have a ghost pack, you'll have a ghost pirate.   Jann Weeratunga ** 30:31 There is a ghost pirates. Yes, they actually meet, they meet Captain Blackbeard and his ghostly crew. And they have to fight their way off his ship with the map, which is the map that takes them to the treasure, which, of course treasure is in the eye of the beholder. And that is their prosthetics.   Michael Hingson ** 30:50 That sounds like fun. Have you? Have you made sure that or have you done anything to make sure that the books are accessible? Like for blind people to be able to read? Are they? Are they put out in an accessible form like that at all? Do you know? At   Jann Weeratunga ** 31:09 the moment? No. I did have a gentleman that was with the Braille organization in Australia that wanted to actually have them, I suppose you call it translated it into Braille? And unfortunately, he never came back to me. So at the moment, no, I don't I don't have them on audio, audio is very expensive to do. And when I have so many books, because I'm actually up, I think I've been I've got over 40 children's books. So you know, when you're sort of producing a lot of books, it's sort of keeping up with them. And when you don't have a publisher, you have to do everything yourself. So you have to pay for the illustrations, you have to pay for the editing, you have to pay for the proofreading that cover everything that goes into a book, and it's quite costly. So the additional cost of an audiobook is not not something I've yet been able to manage. But I'm still hopeful. So yeah, I'll see what happens with that.   Michael Hingson ** 32:19 You might explore something like in this country, there's the National Library Service for   Michael Hingson ** 32:27 blinding and well print handicapped, essentially, Vegas, originally National Library Service of the blind, physically handicapped, but it goes beyond that. Anyway, they oftentimes will take books that they think people will read or that are popular, and they will produce them. And the reason they will do that is that they are protected under copyright law. So they are only available for people who have some sort of print disability. But still, that's a pretty good circulation. And what prompted me to ask the question was that I would think that people with disabilities could benefit from what you have to say as much as others do.   Jann Weeratunga ** 33:13 Yeah, I mean, for me, it's especially children. I went into a school here, recall, and they have, it's very, it's a mixed school. So they have children with physical disabilities. Unfortunately, not blind children simply because the layout of the school is too dangerous for the kids to be able to navigate. But juggle, there was one young girl, for example, had a prosthetic leg. And I remember going in, and I gave a number of books into the school, and I did a whole day chatting to the kids about disabilities. Because I believe very much about educating young people. And I think, I mean, chatting to you, for me is a real privilege. Because I think very often, by the time we're adults, we're too embarrassed or nervous to ask questions. And because we don't ask questions, we tend to avoid talking to somebody with a disability. And the children don't have that same barrier. You know, that they don't see color. They don't see disability. When I describe it a little bit like you know, being inside the box looking out as opposed to adults who are outside the box looking in. And I very much believe that if we can have young people able bodied as well as disabled reading books were characters have disabilities and I mean, as you my books are a complete flip in in many ways. So the norm because most of my characters have disabilities As Of course, they're pirates. So they've got something missing or they're blind, or they're deaf or whatever. So I've probably got about 80% of my characters that are actually disabled. Whereas most books may be, you might get 10% If you're lucky. So for me, it's important because young people, then able bodied and disabled can can read these books. And this particular young young lady I was talking to you about, I was invited back to the school about six weeks later. And she saw me across the car at the car park, and she came for flying over. And she flow her arms around me. And she said, auntie, auntie, thank you for writing that book for me. And I had this most enormous lump in my throat, that seems to be there for five minutes, I'm sure it was just only there for maybe five or 10 seconds before I could get, you know, regain my composure, because it had meant so much for her to be able to identify with other characters in the book, you know. So I think it's very important that these stories are available to young people, as I say, both able bodied and disabled, because I think it gives an understanding, I think it gives an empathy and an education to both.   Michael Hingson ** 36:29 You not only does it I absolutely agree it, it does. And that's again, one of the reasons I asked about audio or more another accessible version, I would, would think that   Michael Hingson ** 36:47 some people may shoot me for it. But with AI today, the so called artificial intelligence and the number of voices that are out there, that there ought to be some ways to convert the books relatively easily by comparison to even five years ago to audio, and then publish them. And   Jann Weeratunga ** 37:09 I did actually purchase a program that I can't remember the name of it now, because I'm not techie minded, but I was advised that that was the best fit at the time. But it's it sounds so mechanical. Yeah. It still didn't, it didn't flow and the emphasis wasn't on the words. Right, what I felt the emphasis should be if you know what I mean. So I do, I have actually recorded I'm very lucky, I do some work with a local school here, I actually scribe for for some of the boys. And they allow me to use their music rooms, which are all sort of, you know, soundproof. So I've actually recorded some myself, I've got one of the books is actually up on YouTube. That's the first of the poly books, and it's up in four sections. But the whole book is actually actually up there. And that's how Polly became a pirate. So I have actually sort of started this myself. And I've done it sort of through the YouTube roots. But yeah, there have   Michael Hingson ** 38:18 been so many great strides in voice technology. And so on that that even in six months, it might be a lot better. I don't know, I've seen some some discussions where I think there might be some some good voice, artificial voice things that are a lot better. But certainly if you can do it, that would make a lot more sense to do by any standard.   Jann Weeratunga ** 38:44 Yeah, yeah. Let's say and I quite enjoy reading my own stories as well to two kids. So it's, it's something I enjoy doing as well.   Michael Hingson ** 38:54 There are now some programs that can take your voice and create unlimited vocabulary speech. If it has enough of your voice to learn from how do we find your books? While you're one book on YouTube? Let me ask that.   Jann Weeratunga ** 39:14 Row. I think basically, you just go January Tonga, YouTube, and it will come up. Okay. How Polycom virus Yeah, I think I   Michael Hingson ** 39:23 look for it. I have to go look for it. I want to read about Polly   Jann Weeratunga ** 39:29 Okey doke. Good. So   Michael Hingson ** 39:31 is writing kind of full time job for you? Or do you have other work that you do to help income or what?   Jann Weeratunga ** 39:38 No writing is my full time job. That is what I do. I love writing for kids. It's a real I think it's a passion. You know, you either love it or you just don't go near it. And prior to COVID I used to be in schools two, three times a week. I was always is in a school somewhere up here. I even did a tour down on the Eastern Cape and took a couple of other authors with me. So, yeah, it's, it's become literally full time. And at the moment I'm putting out a book roughly one book a month? Well, I   Michael Hingson ** 40:19 think I think it's really important that your books, get out there and get visible. And so since it is your full time job, I'm assuming that you do write every day.   Jann Weeratunga ** 40:33 I pretty well write five days a week, I tried to just have a bit of time off at the weekends, sort of family time, but Monday to Friday. The house is quiet by six o'clock, everybody else's. So I actually sit then, and I write usually to that too. And then whatever sort of household bits and pieces need to be sorted out or shopping or whatever, whatever gets done in the afternoon, so but yeah, I put a good six hours in and it's a bit like people that do physical exercise, you know, you build up your muscles, and is a sort of, I believe it's like building up your mental muscles. You know, the more you write. I mean, I picked up, Polly, I haven't written Polly for quite a long time actually. I wrote a younger series, because a lot of people came to me and said, can't Can't you write a pirate series for younger children as well. So I had the patches pirate pals. And for a year, we literally put out a book a month, or 12 books out there on that series No, like on? Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 41:44 Are those books, oh,   Jann Weeratunga ** 41:46 they're all short little 32, page eight by 10 inches by 10. But those ones, I've actually left the illustrations to be colored in by the kids because I feel, especially with boys, they tend to be a bit more than sort of reluctant readers and you hear coloring in it sort of attaches them to the book, and they gain a bit more of an interest in the book. And from that you gain an interest in the words and the story, etc, etc. So that whole series was like that. I've just produced one from my niece. She's three in two weeks time. And she actually was my my illustrating editor, he saw the pictures and either like them or didn't, which was quite interesting. So my poor illustrator had to redo a couple. And I'd given her a toy dinosaur Bronwyn, the dinosaur. And my sister said to me at one point, you can't see anything except purple because Bronwyn eating the phone. And that was because I've sent the picture of Bronwyn, for my niece to approve. And so she was actually using the dinosaur to kiss the phone to those he liked it. So yeah. So but that one's a mixture of color, color and drawing. And so there is a color picture. And an opposite is the same picture just as an outline. And the kids can either use the same colors or their own imaginations. And I believe very much in that as well. I think it's very important that young people use their imaginations, you know, things have changed from from when we were children. You know, when we were kids, we would play outside, we would, you know, almost have fights with brothers or sisters or mock fights or, you know, we played cowboys and Indians or whatever it was we were doing, we do it. And we maybe would watch television for an hour in the evening, sort of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday. Weekends was always sports. So that was dad's time type of thing. But today, it's changed. And we didn't have computers, we didn't have smart telephones, we didn't have any of those things. You know, we used to sit there and do this huge Jigsaw which was four foot by four foot square, on our dining room table, you know, every evening was in pieces in type of thing. But today, it's changed. And I think young kids are in a way missing out and missing out on the opportunity to expand their imaginations because so much is spoon fed to them. So much as you know, Google is wonderful. I fall down the rabbit hole with Google all the time when I'm researching my books. And some of the stuff I come I find is just absolutely mind blowing. But it gives you everything. And I think with young people, if they're given too much, they don't use their imaginations that so that's one of the reasons why I like to. I've, I've created I've actually created two journals. which a guided journal is for very young children to start journaling, you know, so it sort of helps them guide them through. And that's actually part of the practice part ELS series, which is really aimed at sort of four to seven year olds, they're very young ones, maybe up to nine, depending on, you know, ability levels. But it's getting them to use their imagination, to write their story, their poem, draw their drawing, or coloring with the colors that they want to use. And if they want to give somebody green hair, that's fine. They know what color hair is. But let them use their imagination. Let them be creative.   Michael Hingson ** 45:42 We don't do nearly enough of that. And I absolutely agree with you. The the problem with so much television is that everything is just for store, everything is there, there's no imagination. It didn't used to be that way. Even in television, of course, early in televisions era, there was, it was an issue where you had both television and radio. And so people were were used to helping individuals use their imagination. But the longer television has gone on, the more we just put everything out there and there's nothing left for a person's imagination. I collect old radio shows as a hobby, and I love listening to old shows, because they still make you use your imagination. And even now, there are new series. And again, people have to use their imagination and fill in a lot of blanks that are deliberately left and can't be there because there are no pictures to look at. So you've got to do it. And I think television should do more of that.   Jann Weeratunga ** 46:52 Yeah. And books as well. I mean, I think books are wonderful. You know, when I go into in schools, and I open the book, and I say to the children, right, what am I doing? And I'm literally I'm standing there and I'm opening a book, okay? And they say you're opening a book? And I say, Yes, but what else am I doing? And they look puzzled. And I said, I'm opening up the pages to your imagination. And then what is imagination? What is it? And I remember one youngster gave a wonderful definition that it's like dreaming, but your eyes are open. But the story is in your head, and you can see it like a film, attitude. And I thought that is exactly it. Because I know, when I write my books, when I'm writing about Polly, especially Polly, Polly has a very she's very special. Polly and my parents are very special. They, that's my comfortable place. Whenever I go back to Holly. And I can see her, I can hear she's almost talking in my ear. When I'm writing her. It's a weird sort of relationship that I think a writer has with their characters. But she's so real for me. It's almost like she's speaking. And I'm just using my hands to write the words if that makes any sense. Yeah. So it's, it's wonderful. From my point of view, because I can just let my imagination go all over the place, you know. And then when you actually are reading the story, and you watch the kids faces, it is so special. Because you can see, they can see it in their heads. They can take their imagination, they can see the pictures, like a little film, you know? Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 49:05 Well and and that's the way imagination should be now, here's a question does skip and where Polly ended up does Polly have a Scottish accent? Sort of   Jann Weeratunga ** 49:17 weird actually. And he definitely has a Scottish accent. And all of his crew do. He has a cruiser quite there's nine crews and they each have quite definitive accent so the the Caribbean Jamaican crew has very Caribbean the turbaned Indians very much the cowboy Americans very much with an American lil. So each each crew I've actually given their own voice, which is important because it also brings diversity for the kids to understand the world is quite a big place that we live in. So we've got tattooed Maori And we've got Scandinavians, we've got Scots, we've got Zulus, we've got Greek goddesses, we, you know, we've got the the Japanese ninjas, you know, there's all these different crews that are very different. But they all belong to the fellowship of pirates, right?   Michael Hingson ** 50:21 That's really the issue, isn't it?   Jann Weeratunga ** 50:24 Yeah. Yeah. You know, what am I realize we're actually all the same, we all want the same things.   Michael Hingson ** 50:31 One of the things that I talked about, on the podcast, I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it today, because people hear it enough. But you talked about able bodied and disabled people, I work to try to get people to understand that disability doesn't mean and I know you're saying somewhat the same thing. disability does not mean a lack of ability. Disability is a characteristic. And I would submit that everyone has a disability, everyone in the world. And for most of you, as I tell people, it's like dependents, you know, when the lights go out, and you don't have an iPhone, or a smartphone of any sort, or a flashlight nearby, you're in a world of hurt, because you can't see what you're doing. So I submit that we need to get away from making a distinction between so called Able bodied and persons with disabilities, because everyone has one. And what we really need to do is to recognize that disability is a characteristic, and it manifests itself in different ways. Yeah,   Jann Weeratunga ** 51:32 yeah. 100% 100%. I mean, it's even down to one, you might disagree with me on this. But if all you've ever wanted to do is ride a bicycle, and you have no sense of balance, and you cannot ride a bicycle, you are effectively disabled. You are disabled from being able to ride a bicycle. Now, people argument they know that that's not really a proper disability. Sure,   Michael Hingson ** 52:03 it is. It's a it's a characteristic.   Jann Weeratunga ** 52:06 Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's, I think you and I are very much on the same page for this. And I know we had a little chat for a few months about that back end. Back   Michael Hingson ** 52:17 in the day. Yeah, it's been a while.   Jann Weeratunga ** 52:21 Yeah, we touched on it. But But But I agree 100% I think we all have a disability. But one of the things I do say is disability does not mean inability, correct.   Michael Hingson ** 52:33 It does not mean a lack of ability, it just means you have something.   Jann Weeratunga ** 52:39 Yes. And I think each each gift is different. And it makes us see the world in a different way. So for example, because I have dyslexia, I have to work a little bit harder. With my writing. There's nothing wrong with my grammar, there's nothing wrong with the my my word order, or the words I use, until I try and type them and then very often they can come out backwards, or I mean to this day, if I type the word, the, I can guarantee guarantee 90% of the time, it comes out HTTP II. Okay, and that's, and my fingers know what they should be doing. To this date, they know what they should be doing. But   Michael Hingson ** 53:29 they know what you want them to do, but they have their mind of their own.   Jann Weeratunga ** 53:33 They do return. So bit of what I'm trying to say there is that, you know, disability, if you if you look at the figures as such, they say that between 20 and 25% of the world is disabled. Those are the disabilities that can be measured. The other 75% they also have disabilities, they just don't admit to it. Right, exactly right. And now the stigmas that are attached to disability. And again, that's why inside the box looking out outside the box looking in, which starts for me with children, because if you are a child inside the box with others use you just as I said earlier, kids don't see disability, they're just friends, right? They all get on with each other. And if somebody can't do something, they'll help them or if they won't help them, they'll believe them or whatever. But the kids will learn to stand up for themselves. And they will get through that   Michael Hingson ** 54:30 until adults until adults get in the way.   Jann Weeratunga ** 54:33 And so the adults get in the way Exactly. But But what I'm saying is when that group of children become adults, and that's where we haven't got that that's why I believe we haven't got to yet. We're getting there but it's not got there yet. When that group of children become adults, because they've grown up with a whole range of people, different races, different colors, different abilities. It's just normal, it's what's around them. Whereas at the moment, we're having to constantly play catch up. And we're having to put into companies and businesses, the the structures for people with disabilities to be able to go to work.   Michael Hingson ** 55:23 As long as those,   Jann Weeratunga ** 55:25 it will just automatically be there. Because those are going to be the new bosses,   Michael Hingson ** 55:30 as long as they don't forget. As long as they don't forget.   Jann Weeratunga ** 55:35 But that's if we don't interfere. Right.   Michael Hingson ** 55:41 So when is Polly going to be in a movie?   Jann Weeratunga ** 55:46 Oh, my goodness, the big question. Yes, I've actually finally sorted out my pitch. And that's taken a long time. And I've actually a gentleman called Steve Longley. He has been my fairy godfather. He produced Hacksaw Ridge, which is a slightly different type of movie to what we're probably going to be. But he's been a real mentor. And that's why I'm giving you a little bit of a shout out to him, because he doesn't have to help me. He doesn't know me from a bar. So I introduced myself on LinkedIn to him one day, which is, of course, how I met met Sheldon and through Sheldon, you. And he, he's given me so much confidence. So my pictures ready. I'm helping a friend launch their book tomorrow, which has taken up most of the last two weeks. And once that's done, I'm actually going to be going out to producers and directors to see if I will hook somebody that will actually produce it. Because to me, it's important. And I think whether it becomes a TV series or a movie, I don't mind, it probably lends itself more to animation, simply because so many of the characters have disabilities. And I think the insurance for that, in real life would would go through the roof on a movie set? I don't know, but I think so. But it leads me on also to something again, that we touched on before. And that was basically when we were talking about actors, disabled actors. And at the moment most most actors sort of literally have a wheel on reel off for a walk on walk off part. There are no real central characters based around disability or very, very few very emerge now. There's one or two sort of characters that are, you know, building up or what have you. But one of the things I've been advocating for is, why can't disabled actors do voiceovers and dubbing there's nothing stopping them to do those doing those things. We need   Michael Hingson ** 57:56 to we need to talk offline about some of that because there's an organization called Radio enthusiast of Puget Sound and a whole group of people who are blind. And the president of that organization also is the lead in a radio Well, internet radio stations called yesterday usa.net. And there's a red network in a blue network, like there is on a piece on NBC in the golden days of radio. And there actually is some work being done to try to create some programs to encourage blind people to go into doing more audio type stuff. So we should talk about that offline.   Jann Weeratunga ** 58:39 I think so. I think so. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 58:43 Speaking of Washington, that's what we're going to do next month is go up and do for radio show recreations. And I and some other blind people and non blind people are all going to be parts of the show. Now   Jann Weeratunga ** 58:54 that's so cool. It's so cool. I've got a friend here, Lois. And she's just done an art exhibition. And I found it. It was a concept that I found quite difficult to get my mind around, obviously. You know, how can somebody who's blind do an art exhibition, but she's actually working with a group of people down in Cape Town, a group of blind students found in Cape Town, and some have maybe 10% site up to they have just a little bit but not very much, you know, and they're doing amazing, amazing work and I and I think just bringing more of this it needs to be funded, it needs to be supported. I mean, South Africa there's no funding for anything. We don't have electricity most of the time internet sometimes and water when they feel like it. But, but but, you know, in Western countries where there is a little bit more money, I think these things need to be fun. Need more supported a lot more than they are? And I suppose, unless we started up and start shouting, it won't happen. And so that's one of the reasons why I want to see my pirates and poly made into either a film or set of films or a TV series. Again, because it's something that everybody can enjoy. Maybe   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:23 well, Todd, what can I do? Sorry? Maybe we also want to explore making it into an audio series. Hmm,   Jann Weeratunga ** 1:00:34 I think so. I think so. Yeah, definitely.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:37 How do we increase the conversation around disabilities and get people? I know, you've talked about one way as children grow up, but what else can we do as adults to break through some of those barriers and get the conversation? more a part of the mainstream?   Jann Weeratunga ** 1:00:59 Oh, gosh. Well, I think number one, we have to identify the problems. And I think the main problems are and I'm going to talk about disability disabled and able bodied, if you will, just sort of entertain me on that. The more able bodied, shall we say? folk out there feel awkward talking to people with disabilities, they will shun away from speaking to somebody with a disability, they will avoid going to help somebody with a disability. And I think it's just such a stigma. And it's not the disabled person. I don't think it's the individual. It's just the whole sphere of disabilities. And I, I've watched LinkedIn recently, and there's a lot more out there and a lot more stories coming out. And I think I think that's a really good thing. And I think things like I know, the Paralympics does focus on the physical, and the Disabilities is a lot more than that. I mean, people in wheelchairs are only 8% of those with disabilities. Yeah, what is the symbol that we use for the disabled? It's, it's a word character in a wheelchair. Right. Yeah. You know, so. And I know there is a movement towards possibly changing that. I don't know how why is that is, in the sense that I understand why, but at least is recognized as a symbol for disabled. You know, there's pros and cons around everything. Yeah. And I think I think we just have to talk more, I think there needs to be, I think, all right, I think people are frightened. It's like when I first spoke with Lois, because I think she was the first blind person I spoke with. And I said, Louis, can I ask you a question? Should you ask me anything? But I thought I had actually say, may I ask you the question? Because I felt awkward. I didn't want to cause offence. I didn't want to be rude. I didn't want to say something that will upset. And I think that's part of it. With a lot of people. And we have to get over it. We have and I think that's what Sheldon did that for me. Actually, he was wonderful. We had an hour long chit chat. And I was chatting to him about how to use some of the analytics in LinkedIn and stuff as well, you know, stuff he had, and been able to do, and what have you. And it was so nice, because I felt so much more comfortable at the end of the conversation than obviously, I had at the start of the conversation. And I think just the more able bodied people, a person is, they just need to get over it. They just need to start talking to people. But it's our and it's hard. And that's why I go back to kids because I think, you know, to a degree we have to start with young people and educate them and bring them through the system. But then what do we do with all of us old is sitting at the top end.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:20 But the awkwardness is more of a learned behavior than anything else. We we don't like to think that just because someone is different than us. They're necessarily at the same level we are. And we we grow up learning that which is in part why I said I hoped that children today don't forget as they grow up, because it's a learned behavior. And you're right. It's great to start with children, and the more children get to be involved in the conversation and carry on the conversation. and don't have the fear, the better it is, oh,   Jann Weeratunga ** 1:05:03 well, I'll give you an example on something. My niece, as I mentioned earlier is going to be three. One of the things my sister did with her, when for about six months on, she taught her how to sign. Now my niece isn't there. But there's a movement in the UK to teach babies to sign. Because they can sign I'm hungry, I'm full. I would like more. And, you know, I mean, there's obviously a lot more signs than those, I've just taken three, the very basic ones, they can do that six to eight months before they can speak up. So they can communicate on a level to express themselves, which also reduces frustration, and anger. And I'm actually trying to learn there's a guy called the Deaf chef on Instagram, and I'm following him. And every day, he comes out with a new sign. And I've been trying to learn some of those number one, so I can keep up with my knees and get better at styling than I am. But also, sign language actually just became 12 official language in South Africa. And I went to a restaurant one day, and there was a lady there. And I asked her a question, and then she sort of put her hand to it yet and said, you know, yeah, basically, you know, was was telling me she was deaf. So I wrote it down, because I couldn't sign. But the only thing I had looked say was, thank you. So at the end of the conversation, I actually just gave the sign of Thank you. And her face just lit up. It was the only thing I knew how to do. But have it made her day. You know? And and I just think that we we need to all make more of an effort, I suppose. And I think things like, Why can't say why can't we have sign language in schools? You know, over here, we have 11 languages, and they're all taught in school. So why can't we have some language taught and useful? The more we communicate, the more we talk to each other. The more I think barriers will come down. And we've got to get over this stigma of disability. And again, it's that word, isn't it? disability?   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:25 And only YouTube anytime we need to learn it doesn't mean Yeah, because it's not a lack of ability.   Jann Weeratunga ** 1:07:30 Exactly.   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:33 If people want to reach out to you and learn more about you, how do they do that?   Jann Weeratunga ** 1:07:38 Okay, so they can they can email me. And I've actually, I think I've given you some of my links. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:48 we'll go ahead and spell out email if you want to or whatever. Go ahead and say it here as well, please. Okay,   Jann Weeratunga ** 1:07:54 what is quite a complicated kind of fortunately, but it's, it's, well, I'll give you my easy one. I've got one which is Jann Weeratunga, which is? No, maybe that's not the easier one. I think they'll probably is. It's J a n S Jans, Pics P i C S. SA for South africa@gmail.com. Jan's pics SA for South Africa,   Michael Hingson ** 1:08:21 at Gmail. com. That's pretty easy. Great. Well, I want to thank you for being here. And we will be putting the book covers and all the other things up in the cover notes. And I hope people will reach out this has clearly been fun and fascinating. And I want to continue our discussions later offline. We got to do some

Episode 92: Embrace the Journey: Lessons for Busy Moms from a Working Physician   Join Dr. Prianca Naik on the Empowering Working Moms Podcast! In this episode, she discusses the importance of taking the time to appreciate the day-to-day, regular, mundane moments in your life in order to truly cultivate  more presence and peace. Dr. Prianca invites you to learn about how soaking in your surroundings can help you keep yourself grounded and be more content with life. Tune in for more on this topic.   In this episode, you will learn how to: Manage the common struggle of working mothers to stay present amidst their busy schedules. Be present and enjoy life. Embrace life as a journey and not just a series of achievements or goals.   Check out her free masterclass on how over-driven career moms can ditch burnout and exhaustion without more self-care in only five minutes a day. https://program.stresscleansemd.com/4-secrets-to-living-a-life-you-ll-love-podcast   If you want to work with Coach Prianca Naik, MD, go to www.priancanaikmdcoaching.as.me to book a 30-minute consultation call.   Follow Dr. Prianca on social media:   https://www.facebook.com/prianca.naik   https://www.instagram.com/doctorprianca   https://www.linkedin.com/in/prianca-naik-md-0524a196/   Join her FREE Facebook group:   https://www.facebook.com/groups/646992382603860   [FULL TRANSCRIPTION:]   You're listening to the empowering working moms podcast episode number 92. Hello there. Thank you so much for tuning in today to today's podcast episode of empowering working moms. And hopefully the weather is warming up near you. I know finally the sun is shining here. It was raining like crazy yesterday.   It has been an interesting week or so, maybe 10 days for me. My old au pair left, I was awaiting my new au pair, in between childcare, trying to work. And then I ended up having to move up carpal tunnel surgery. And that was going to be literally like the second day my new au pair was here. And then driving with her to make sure that she's safe to drive my kids. It's been pretty logistically crazy.   And that's what really inspired today's episode. Because really, so many times when we're at work, we're just obsessing over our to do lists, getting everything done, vacuuming with the Dyson, the crumbs, or signing our kids up for soccer. And then when we're at home, we're thinking about emails that we need to answer.   Or if you're a physician, you might have charts pending that you need to finish piling up and a backlog. And you end up just not being present. You're not present at home because you're thinking about work. You're not present at work, because you're thinking about home. And you're just missing out and you're stuck in this daily grind dread trap.   And this really happens because you're just so busy. And you're busy trying to keep up with everything in your life. And then you just end up falling behind and feeling like you're not doing good enough of a job. And then life is just really passing you by.   And so, this whole logistical the circumstances that were super annoying in these past 10 days, I just had so much to do, my to do list was really long. And well, I don't make to do lists. But you know what I mean, I had a lot to do.   And it was just really hectic. And so it really got me thinking about the fact that life is now, like it's happening right now. And the regular moments of our day to day lives are really what make it up. And yes, there are beautiful trips. There are memories we make that are really special, like the holidays.   But besides those, we've got our day to day life that we are lucky to wake up and be alive. And I say this because as a physician, I have seen so many elderly folks, and they're really sick. And they just wish they had more time and they're towards the end of their lives. And it's tough. So while we're here and we're still young, we get to decide what kind of life we want to live.   And that means that we learn to be present for the now and enjoy the journey. And I bring up this concept of the journey because it really is all about this journey. Life is a process. It's never going to be perfect.   And it's all about just being here. And when things go wrong, learning the lessons and being there with the turbulence, knowing that it's going to end and then you come out on the other side. And you are all good. You're resilient.   And I'm sure if you're listening to me and you're thinking, What the heck is she talking about? Like, I don't believe a word of this. I know you can reflect and think of times where you have bounced back and you were so strong.   Because you are a kick ass female and you work you are a mom and we are tough, we are so much tougher and stronger than we give ourselves credit for. So back to the journey. It's really about being here, being present, enjoying the now, and not sweating what's to come.   Because a lot of the time, what's to come isn't as bad as we assume. And we sit there worrying because we want to troubleshoot, we want to problem solve, we want to fix. And it's just a waste of time and energy. So then we drain ourselves but on top of the waste of time and energy, you end up missing out on what's right in front of you.   And so I'll give an example of this actually, this was happening today. So I got my new au pair and we always do a lot of test driving. I do the drive with my kids, getting on and off a kind of like a mini highway where I live, getting on and off, dropping my kids off, figuring out that route, watching are you putting your turn signal on, all those things.   Anyway. So, I go through that. This is my second time doing this with my new au pair. And I feel stressed a little bit because of course, I'm very protective of who drives my kids. They are young children, and they're my most precious cargo. And of course, we're all as mothers, right? We're not just let anyone drive our kids.   So it ends up making me always feel a little stressed and anxious. Right. So then I ended up getting this retired police officer to do a test drive and lesson test him out and give an objective assessment on how he thinks the au pair drives. And that usually puts my mind at ease, and helps to teach any driving skills that maybe they need some brushing up on.   So today, I went to an Easter egg hunt with my kids while my au pair was getting the lesson. And then after the Easter egg hunt, I took them to frozen yogurt. And that's all to say that during frozen yogurt, I knew that her driving lesson was coming to an end soon.   And I could find my mind wandering and thinking about oh, what is the driving teacher gonna say, is he going to say she's a good driver, is he gonna say she's not good, am I going to have to go in to re- all these things just, I could feel my brain going down that path.   And as my brain was going down that path, because I do this work, I'm able to notice that. So I pulled myself back into the present moment, I looked at both of my kids, because they're so cute. And they were enjoying their frozen yogurt so much. And I looked at each one of them.   And I thought this time is not coming back. And this is a really special time, the time that I get to take them for frozen yogurt. And some of the stuff just brings me to tears, the regular daily stuff, because here's the thing, and I'm not preaching about this, it's really the truth like. These are our lives people.   Like taking our kids to frozen yogurt, that's just a regular thing to do. But you know what, 20 years from now, when they are off at college, or they don't live with us anymore, we're going to be dying to spend time with them.   And they may not want anything to do with us. I believe it's sooner than that, actually, that people say that they're just not hanging out with us. Maybe in middle school. I don't know, my kids are young.   But that's it, watching them enjoy their frozen yogurt that mundane, boring, it's not so boring, though, just regular moment, that's what we get to soak in. That's what we get to be grateful for.   That's what we get to really be present for instead of sitting there and worrying about what the report is going to be about the au pair driving. Because regardless of the outcome of that report, I would figure it out, you would figure it out, we'd be fine no matter what, right?   So why bother worrying about that and missing out on the magic of the ice cream, or the frozen yogurt and the look on the kid's face, or my daughter has chocolate ice cream all over her lips. It's just really cute and adorable. And the enjoyment that my son shows. And I look at him. And I look at both of them. And I remember when they were newborns, and I just cannot believe how quickly time has flown by.   So just being grateful, being present, being here and now. Pulling yourself to the present moment by simply noticing what's happening around you, noticing what's happening right in front of you, and pulling yourself there instead of letting your mind wander.   Because believe me, you got this, whatever challenges come your way, you're going to be able to deal with it no matter what. And so that's the journey, the journey is here now.   Which also brings me to pointing out that we often are so used to going from one thing to the next and checking off one box, then getting to the next and the next. And we're always on to the next thing. And then we're sitting there thinking yeah, I'll be happy and satisfied when. I will be happy when I go on this vacation, I will be happy when my divorce is final, I will be happy when I got the perfect job.   And that's just not the case. The happiness is now. The happiness is appreciating all the beauty for what it is while it's happening. As opposed to thinking that a circumstance something that happens is going to solve all your problems.   It's not, and the sooner that we can realize that we are in control of our own thoughts, our own feelings, our own experience of life, this journey, the more empowering that is and that's how we end up enjoying our lives and being happy.   Okay, so in a world obsessed with outcomes and goals and the end game, it's so easy to overlook what's happening, where the real magic is happening, where we learn and we grow. And that is so beautiful, and the destination, where we're heading, which is really we're all heading to death, right? We're all gonna die someday. So we might as well just enjoy the time that we have.   And I know you might think that's easier said than done. But I will tell you that even in my darkest hours, and the most difficult difficult times in my life, especially in the beginning of COVID I would say from 2020 to 2022.   Even when I was pregnant with my daughter from 2020 to 2021, I would enjoy the fresh air outside and soak in my surroundings to keep myself happy, balanced, sane, whatever you want to call it. Even when I was struggling big time in my marriage and things like that. It was a very hard time.   But by being present, and really focusing on where I was at the moment, that is what allowed me to be well during a very turbulent time. So think about this. How often are we rushing through our days, we're just checking off the stuff on our to do list without really experiencing our life. And we're taking for granted the journey.   And instead, we can allow ourselves to be present and really savor the regular parts of life and find gratitude every single day. And gratitude is so important in just helping ourselves have a lens that is a little bit more rose colored.   And as we realize that we don't have to take life so seriously, we don't have to be so intense about everything, we can have a lot more fun, we can be more adaptable, we can be more flexible, we can be resilient. And this really helps build our sense of self and balance and stability.   And by really just taking hold of each day and appreciating it and taking things in your stride. And the thing is, there are always going to be curveballs that get thrown our way. A client was telling me how she was supposed to go to a party and then her spouse who's also a physician had to stay late at work. And then she had to do all this juggling, and eventually she got there.   But the point is that when those things happen, right, that's all part of the course, we make all these plans and we've got to learn to roll with the punches and be flexible and not freak out when things change when plans change, because that is life.   And we get to realize that sweating the small stuff, it doesn't really matter. And it is a waste of time. So I would just encourage you, I know you're ambitious. I know you're a go getter, I know you're getting stuff done left and right.   But I would really encourage you to slow down, stop and really soak in moments with your kids, holding your spouse's hand, the hugs, bedtime, whatever you enjoy. Looking at them while they're enjoying something, seeing the magic of whatever it is, kids get really excited about the tooth fairy or all these things.   And just being there. We're not going to remember half of the stuff that goes on anyway. But I know for me when I'm dying, I am going to look back and know that I did the best I could and I did my best to connect and be there with the people who mattered to me the most. And I highly encourage you to do the same.   Because that's what this is all about. It's our journey, learning to be present and really letting go of toxic stuff, toxic dynamics, we let go of our worries, we don't have to worry so much. It's just not worth it. And we can learn to have presence and connection and truly enjoy our lives.   So if you really want to dive deeper into this work and heal yourself from the inside out to truly find peace, happiness, joy in your life, and therefore we're going to create a happier and healthier next generation of kids.   Book a call with me PriancaNaikMDcoaching.as.me. Thank you so much for tuning in, and I will talk to you next week.

I would like to introduce you to Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills. She had a decent childhood, for the most part. She was raped and also gang raped, but as she learned to be unstoppable and gained strength from these experiences, she grew into a fierce advocate for women and then later for other marginalized groups. Her story is quite amazing. To me, the most amazing thing is that she is quite willing to share her story if it will help others. She will tell us all about her philosophy on the subject.   For a time she worked in the insurance arena and then went into other endeavors. Over the past 20 years she has been a coach, trainer and consultant to over 2,000 companies and, as she says, she has assisted countless more in various ways.   Barbara's story and life lessons demonstrate how someone can make the choice to be unstoppable. She lives in Mount Loral, NJ with her family. If you ever meet her, don't mess with her as she is quite proficient in various martial arts styles as you can read in her bio. I hope you gain wisdom and knowledge from our conversation. Barbara Anne is a gem and a wonderful person to talk with. I hope you feel the same.   About the Guest:   Barbara Anne is a “Solutions Navigator” and servant leader who has directly assisted over 2,000 businesses in the past two decades and provided training, coaching, and technical assistance to countless more companies, teams, entrepreneurs, and individuals throughout her career. She is the founder and owner of Purpose-Filled Solutions and Evolutions LLC, a business consulting and leadership coaching company that partners with people, leaders, companies, and agencies to find their "why" (core purpose), identify resources, navigate challenges, change mindsets, and develop and implement plans to achieve their visions of success, with an emphasis on civility, inclusion, equity, and diversity (CIED), her unique alternative to current DEI approaches. Barbara Anne also serves as Director of Compliance & Engagement for Cooperative Business Assistance Corporation (CBAC) in Camden, NJ, and hosts “What The Why?!? with Barbara Anne,” a weekly talk show on RVN Television, Roku, and more. Before her current roles, she served as the Management Analyst and Community Liaison for the U.S. White House Promise Zone Initiative in Camden, NJ, stationed at the U.S. Department of Housing & Urban Development (HUD), and as Supervisor of Lender Relations and Economic Development/Women's Business Ownership Representative for the U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA) New Jersey District Office, and in other leadership roles in the corporate, non-profit, and municipal government arenas. Barbara Anne holds an M.S. in Executive Leadership, a B.A. in Political Science/ Honors with concentrations in Pre-Law and Women's Studies, and an A.A. in Liberal Arts with a concentration in Business Communications. She has completed multiple professional designations and adult continuing education certificates, including her Professional Certified Coach (PCC) certification with the International Coaching Federation (ICF), Certified Professional Coach in Executive Coaching from RCSJ, and certifications in talent optimization and implementing Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) in the workplace. Barbara Anne serves in volunteer leadership capacities with ICF's NJ Charter Chapter and Braven, and she is a member of ICF Global, the Association of Talent Development (ATD), CDFI Women's Network, and other professional and civic organizations. The National Association of Women's Business Owners (NAWBO) – South Jersey Chapter honored her with their 2016 “Women's Advocate of the Year” award.  She is also a Second-Degree Black Belt and member of the Okinawa Goju-Ryu Kenshi-Kai Karate-Jutsu Kobu-Jutsu Association and trains in multiple other martial arts styles.   ** ** Ways to connect with Barbara:   Email: info@Purposefilledsolutionsandevolutions.com Phone: 856-313-0609 Website: https://www.purposefilledsolutionsandevolutions.com/  Personal LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bgardenhiremills/ Purpose-Filled Solutions & Evolutions' Social Media Links Through LinkTree: https://linktr.ee/purposefilledcoach "What The Why?!? with Barbara Anne" On-Demand: https://rvntelevision.com/tv-show/what-the-why/        About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, and hello, once again. Welcome to unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Michael Hingson. Or you can call me Mike, it's okay. Just Oh, I hate to do the joke, just not late for dinner. But anyway, here we are. And today we get to talk with Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills. Barbara Ann is in New Jersey has an interesting story and things that she's doing as a coach and other work that she is doing. And also, I'm going to give it away and she'll talk about it anyway. Barbara has had a couple of bouts with COVID. And actually just got through with one but she has a lot of wisdom about long COVID And actually already and just talking with her before we started this I learned some things I didn't know. And knowledge is always useful thing to have. So Barbara Anne welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 02:12 Thank you so much. I am super happy and honored to be asked to be your guest today. I'm really looking forward to our conversation.   Michael Hingson ** 02:23 Well, then we ought to have one right. So tell me about maybe the the younger barber and growing up and all that let's start there. It's always good as they say to start at the beginning somewhere.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 02:34 Yes. Start at the beginning. So younger Pribram was born in the late 60s to Maryland and Joseph, a biracial couple. So when my parents got married, still wasn't even legal in some states. And I was born right here in New Jersey, Jersey girl my whole life. And my my five foot three Caucasian mom and my six foot three. Black dad, African American reef. Yeah, they met when they were in college. And while my mother's family was very, very not in any way any color in the family tree has recently improved by one to three me my father's family was always very integrated. And I was the first of four children. My mother and dad had me and my sister exactly 16 months apart on purpose. I think that's insane. I can't even imagine doing that these days. And, and then there was three other siblings that would come along the way. One of whom died shortly after birth because of complications. And it was interesting. I grew up in an apartment complex that wasn't then but is now officially designated as what you would call affordable housing. And a small little, I never thought of it as rural growing up, but they call it rural. It was Vineland, New Jersey. Ah, and it actually is the biggest city in the state of New Jersey in terms of land size, all 69 square miles of it. And but definitely in southern New Jersey. And this is at a time when a lot of the highways and systems that exist now didn't even exist in its parts of South Jersey. And it was like its own whole other world. Anybody who has any familiarity with North and South Jersey knows how vastly different the two are the right down to the accents. And you know, we you know, had a good upbringing, the Things were going well, when it's time for me to go to school, because of the time that it was was you talking about early 70s, I was bussed as part of a program to make sure that they were, you know, equally distributing children aka schools. Which was really interesting. When back in the days before there was cell phones, in fact, my parents had a party line. They accidentally put me on the wrong bus. That was fun when you're in kindergarten. Yeah. But probably one of the earliest tragic things that would happen to me what happened when I was seven. And it's interesting, because I, my mom said, I've always been a forward planner, I've always been very rational, but also very even tempered. And she likes to tell stories about how you know, at a time when I was 14 months, I spilled a bowl of popcorn and I sat there at 14 months old, individually picking up each piece of kernel of corn and putting it back in the bowl. And when I was when I started walking it at nine months, and around 1112 months, we were out walking, and I saw a dandy line and I bent over and I pulled it up, I had no idea that would kill it. I picked it up and I sniffed it, and proceeded to put it right back in its exact place where it was. And so all these years later, she still loves to tell that story because I was very methodical and particular and had my routines and my processes. And then 10 days before Christmas, just after my seventh birthday, my father was killed in a car accident. And here was my mother, at the age of 28, widowed with four biracial children, the oldest of whom was seven and the youngest of whom was only had just been born on October 27. And that would be one of many pivots, in terms of that would define my future going forward. Okay, how   Michael Hingson ** 07:09 did you how did your parents, your, your grandparents deal with you? Maybe at the beginning, you said that they on your mom's side, we're not really oriented toward having biracial or any color in the family did that mollify at all especially towards you as you grow older,   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 07:30 not till I was much older. In fact, when my dad died, my grandfather, who was an Episcopal priest, refused to let my grandmother even can be with my mother, her grieving daughter, because as far as he was concerned, she was dead to him.   Michael Hingson ** 07:51 I have just never comprehended, of course, I've been blind my whole life, baby. And I regard it as a blessing. But I've just never understood this whole issue of color, and skin color having any significance to anything. It's just crazy. But   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 08:09 for the most part, it wasn't even a thing until the mid 1800s. In terms of, you know, I can't think of his name right now, because I'm coming off of my long COVID relapse, but a British scientist, was the one who kind of artificially constructed and classified race. Yeah. And there were a number of people, including Alexander Graham Bell, who bought into some of those theories. Yeah. And but before that, it really was just more of a familial designation, in terms of what country you are from and royalty was royalty. So they intermixed all the time. You know, there was how we understand things now really, are an artificial construct, which is one of the foundational pieces of what I do in my work as it relates to civility, inclusion and equity and diversity. But in that time, my grandmother didn't come my aunt didn't come they were in Florida. My dad's family. My dad was the youngest of six and he was a sports person he had played for the Eagles, arm team and he played basketball and everybody knew who he was. And his family stepped up and stepped in by her family was non existent. I would finally meet her sister a few years after that, and we have a good relationship. I only ever met my one uncle on her side once and I have a necklace that's handed down to my mother was. Her maiden name was aptly As in former Prime Minister Attlee of England, and so they were very particular, he was very much. Interestingly, it was almost bad that he married my grandmother. He was very much a white Anglo Saxon Protestant male, who married my mother's mother, my grandmother, credibly beautiful woman, her name was Ruth Fogarty. And like, parents off the boat Irish, her dad was an Irish house in New Orleans. And, and they had three children, and my mother was the oldest of them. And so dad wasn't so thrilled and dad ruled the household. And I finally met my grandmother right before I turned 12, because there's a family necklace that's handed down through the Fogarty family line to the to the oldest female on their 12th birthday. And so she was permitted to come see us and, and transfer that to me. And then right around the time I turned 16, my grandfather decided to have a change of heart, and that he was wrong. And I would meet him a couple of times between 16 and 19. And then when I was 19, he passed us was very awkward, I agreed to go to the funeral for my mother. But that was probably actually one of the biggest fights we ever had to because I had very strong feelings about being forced to go and mourn someone that had done, what I now understood had been the things that he had done over the course of her life in mind. But I, you know, she she said, incredible person. So my mother, who I'm I've ever been, I don't know who it is, but I don't like she tends to be much more private. She watches everything I do. But I don't usually name her for her own privacy reasons. You know, she would raise all four of us on her own, she never remarried, she went back to school, because she dropped out when she married my dad, and then had me, you know, urina. She got married in February of 67. They had me in mid November of 68. So she decided to go back to school, she completed her associate's then her Bachelor's than her Master's. And she went on to teach at the college where she got her nursing degree. And all of that joined the military before age 40, to become a nurse. And for the US Army, reserve corps, so she did a lot of really amazing things on her own, with me, helping out along the way, as the oldest child. So I learned to do a lot of things very young, that I probably wouldn't really be able to do now, in terms of watching siblings, cooking and cleaning, and things like that, but things that were otherwise really common at the time. And another big part of our lives was the church that we raised in. And because the whole family, my dad's family, was involved on both sides, my family were involved in the clergy, but the brother and cousins that we were most close to, went to the church where we went to and so they became a huge support system for my mom. And in a very interesting indoctrination process for me, that I would spend the better part of my teens and early 20s trying to undo. So that's the very early I, you know, we went to a private Christian school on scholarship. And when my mom graduated, they said no more scholarships. So I went to public high school, and did really well. You know, but I felt like I had been kind of thrown into this weird alternative universe where I had been used to being one of the only children of color in an entire school. And now I was in a school that was pseudo integrated. Different kids tended to be tracked based on their intelligence, but also, in part based on their socioeconomic status and, and race. And on my very first day, when I went to go in with the few kids that I didn't know, into the school cafeteria, I was stopped at the door and I was told that only the white kids ate in there, I had to go to the other cafeteria with the black and Spanish kids. And I was like, what, what are you talking about? And they were like, You eaten here. And that that was not something that my high school fixed for almost another 15 years when they finally decided to assign cafeterias, and eliminate a lot of staff. But other than that, I did choir, I did drama, I did all the things that I loved to learn, had its really great friends. And then couldn't afford to go to college. Now that my mom was working, I didn't get enough aid, and I wanted to be a doctor. And so I ended up getting just enough grants to go to community college. And then I went to work full time, and we went to school full time at nights. I went to work for Prudential insurance company, and they paid 90% tuition reimbursement. And I worked there in policyholder services, answering questions for agents for 10 states. Here I was, you know, the ages of 1819 20 ensiling complex insurance questions back when everything was in these little books, we would have to pull the pages out. And to replace them to update them. We covered all of New England and most of the East Coast with the exception of New Jersey and Massachusetts along scope   Michael Hingson ** 16:36 guard. So this was like 1987 88. Yes, exactly.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 16:40 8788 89. And, and then one of the next major pivotal things in my life happens. Having been raised in a very fundamentalist religion, I had never been involved in any kind of a sexual relationship. And I got raped. And what was interesting about it, other than the fact that it was pretty bad and it was somebody I knew, I got angry. And that's, that pivoted me into advocacy. And I became a speaker. I spoke on college campuses, I spoke at my high school. I was like, oh, no, no, no, this is never going to happen to another woman. Right? Yeah. This is just not okay. And, and then I had this whole world of advocacy opened up for me. And it's funny, I'll never forget, I ended up changing my major. Because my political science class and my sophomore year of college, the professor has put a list of all of these different characteristics. He said, Well, what describes a typical politician and he was what in New Jersey, we now call commissioners, but back then we called them freeholders freeholders held land. And we put all these characteristics on a board of what a typical politician is. And he said, Georgia class, he said, Okay, everybody, if you aren't, at least, almost all of them, if not all of these, you never, ever, ever have a chance of holding any kind of high office or elected office in government. And I looked at him in my stereotypical, defiant way, when somebody says I can't do something, and said, Oh, really. And I changed my major to political science that week. And I would later tell him after I graduated from political science honors from what is now Rowan University, with concentrations in pre law and Women's Studies. I would eventually tell him go back and tell him that he was the reason why I changed my major. And he was just so blown away. He's like, Oh, wow, I'm so odd. Really told him why. And guess what, like many politicians, he ended up having an affair with a staffer and losing his his seat and his wife in the process. So I guess he was so much more like, far too many prostitutions back then, than what was listed on the board.   Michael Hingson ** 19:31 Do as I say, not as I do.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 19:35 When I go ahead, no, go ahead. I was gonna say when I finished college, though, my first job right out of college. As I had left Prudential to go back full time to finish, which was good because by the time I got done Prudential no longer existed. They had moved their job offices to Jacksonville and have the office that I would have worked at had I stayed there like so many people said I should. Of course they He told me he really shouldn't leave this great job. And I said, Okay, really well watch me. And so again, I answered an ad in the newspaper. And I ended up going to work for the city of Bridgeton, in my field, actually working for the city in a new role for called the Community Development Block Grant sub recipient monitor. And my job was to create the infrastructure for monitoring funds from a community development block grants that were distributed to organizations in the community as a whole host of other things. And that was the beginning in 1992, of my 31 year career, other than one, brief six year return to insurance after having my son, my otherwise 31 year career in community and economic development.   Michael Hingson ** 20:59 So you got married along the way?   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 21:02 I did, but not yet. I stayed for a while. Yeah. Which is a really great question. I, I just wasn't ready. Yeah, I, I was in this I was in this weird world of, I was too white for most black boys. I was too dark for most white boys. I was not Latina. But that was what I was most often mistaken for, because of my skin tone and where I grew up. And, and I was often just a novelty, somebody wanted to be able to say that they had tried being with a black girl. And in 2012, when I was 23 years old, that culminated actually, in a second, much more serious rape scenario with a guy that I had been seeing. Who knew about the first one, we'd had conversations about the fact that his sister had been through something similar. And then myself and a friend went to a party at his house, and they, I didn't even drink, because I didn't want to be in that situation. And yet, I felt like I was drunk. And it didn't. We didn't talk about things like being date rape drugs, and things like that. But yeah, it was, it was bad. And I remember bits and pieces, and they were just kind of joking that they all wanted to know what it was like to be with a black girl. And, um, so I was very protective of myself in many ways for many years. And when I met my husband, I was in a, I was long distance seeing someone he was seeing somebody else, we could care less. And then we would be reintroduced a couple years later. And I was at a point where I was like, I just not I can't get involved with. I've had all these bad experiences with white guys and black guys. I just know, I was seeing a guy from Puerto Rico at the time. And as my husband likes to say, he just had to convince me that he was the only thing missing from my life. So he did what every other guy who wants to be with somebody does, he became a really good friend. And then we would end up finally getting married three years after our first date, which was a disaster, by the way, because our first date was literally the day of the very first Million Man March. Oh, and I said to him, What were you thinking we had ended up getting into a political conversation and realized we were about as diametrically opposed as one could be. And that's what he thought about. What was he thinking when he asked out a young black urban professional, he said he didn't know because he didn't realize I was black. He thought I was lucky not then. And then one of the jokes of that evening that still gets repeated to this day, I said, oh, and I suppose you haven't marched? And I suppose you've marched in a militia too. And he says, well, not lately. Now he was he had been on the north on a Civil War reenactment militia militia, but my husband would really appreciate your sense of humor. So no, in spite of that disastrous first date, next month, we will have been married for 25 years and together for 28. Any he was so everything I was not looking for at the time, which is probably exactly why it worked because I after all of those other experiences I had decided to find out. And we did, we got married. And, in fact, I was executive director of a nonprofit housing organization at the time, and it was selling, it's celebrating its 25th anniversary. So we postponed our talk about understanding guy, he's always supported me and said, You go be you. We actually postponed our honeymoon, so that we could get the anniversary banquet and celebration out of the way, and then go on our honeymoon without having that hanging over our heads. So he knew what kind of person he was getting together with. And he was he was fine with that. And so yeah, and we would go on, and I would have, we would have one son. And that was another pivot. This year, I was, at this point, I'm now running an organization that the nonprofit that I was with helped start, I'm used to like going around the country, and conducting training classes in housing counseling, and homeownership education for housing counselor is for the federal government on going all these great places. And then along comes this son, who God purposefully gave me to prove I have absolutely no control over anything. I remember Oh, my gosh, it was it was something else. And remember, and of course, you know, being a slightly older mom, at this point, I'm 33. Having a geriatric pregnancy just didn't sound right. At all, I'm like, Oh, my God, I've I've tested I'm sitting there in tears one day, like, how is it that I could testify and in front of the state legislature and congressional hearings that I can't get this kid to go to sleep? What is wrong?   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 27:10 got through it. I went back to the insurance industry. took a pause. 911 happened. I remember you. I remember seeing interviews with you on Larry King. And you know, one of the reasons why we chose our son's name, Colin, which is, the original Greek word for courage was after that happened, because we had, as you probably I know, you can relate based on having heard your story. I worked in Trenton and so there were people, a lot of people would commute by train. So someone I grew up with was lost. Very, very close friend of ours, his cousin was lost. But then there were other people that were actually supposed to be there that I was friends with, for various reasons that, like interviews were cancelled. A friend of mine who worked in Jersey City was supposed to cross over to work for Wall Street Journal, he was supposed to be there that morning, it got postponed to that afternoon. So many people that had so many close brushes. And so Colin seemed like a really good name. And, but it also drastically affected our funding as a nonprofit, because all the organizations where we were basically redirected already committed funds to World Trade Center efforts. And which is why to this day, I'm still firmly believe in cash accounting, and not the cruel accounting. And I went back into the insurance industry for six years. And it was fun. And I was underwriting manager for a company here in New Jersey. And and then, we unmerged with our parent company merged with another company and a whole bunch of changes started happening. And I ended up going through my next major pivot. I decided to leave a role where I was having a lot of difficulty with someone who was actively sabotaging my work. And so I decided to take a lateral move left a team of 19, several of whom were in extreme tears to help go create another department. And that behavior continued constant, what we would now call bullying but there was no such thing as bullying in the workplace. Right? And that would culminate in him. physically assaulting me on the job in a conference room full of leaders in front of witnesses. And he herniated all the discs in my neck. And what was really interesting about that is all of the other things that I had been through. They were emotional, and it was easy to recover. But the physical injury that I went in for a while I, my neck got everything swelled up so much I couldn't walk, I couldn't feel my feet. I couldn't function it was was incredibly painful. All of my C spine discs, were either damaged or bulged. And you would think, with so many people having witnessed it, it would be a no brainer, he would get fired. That's not what happened. Yeah, I was gonna ask. Yeah. That's not what happened at all. I would later find out through notes that he was giving a an a one time final warning, but this person had had a history of inappropriate behavior. And everybody would just chalk it up as to being that person. And so he had been there 20 years I had been there, three, and they decided that I was the one that needed to go. And they did what we used to call an insurance terms and other corporate terms called circle the wagons, protect their jobs. And that got ugly, very, very ugly. And Lisa Halloran was my hero. She was my, she taking the job was supposed to be a director was downgraded to a manager, which then downgraded me from management to consultant. And so she had only been there six months when this happened, she had transferred from another office. And in full integrity, she stood by me. Even when she personally was threatened, she stood by me. One point, she was told by the Vice President, I'm trying to save our jobs, you need to get in line. And she said, I would rather lose my job and be able to sleep at night, and do what you're asking me to do. And fortunately, for me, even though that left knee permanently partially disabled, I was able to find specialists, they did pay for one disc to be replaced. I did, New Jersey has binding arbitration, and the company pays for it. So there's not really much of an incentive for a binding arbitrator to actually rule in the favor of an employee. And they had argued in court that assaults were not not considered eligible for arbitration, but then tried to argue, in arbitration, that assaults belonged in court and the judge saw right through it and sent them all and joined everybody together, inviting arbitration and what was interesting is they lost. Wow, they lost and what what the ruling basically was was that the assault aside the way I was treated, including having ignored blatantly and openly admitted to ignoring their own grievance procedures process, that they had made a bad situation worse. And the funny thing is, then they then filed an appeal. At which point the arbitrator scathingly said, what part of binding arbitration Didn't you understand when you asked for binding arbitration? And they would eventually shut down all New Jersey operations. I, there's lots of rumors, I won't speculate. But yeah, almost everybody lost their jobs, all the way up to the top, including the New Jersey president. And I went back into government nonprofit work, and that's where I've been ever since.   Michael Hingson ** 34:26 You know, it's the insurance industry is a fascinating place. The reason I said early on that you joined in the insurance world in 1987 1988. Something like seven years before around 1980, maybe 1979. Probably 1980. Somebody in the National Federation of the Blind, which is the largest consumer organization of blind people, was at a meeting of insurance people Sitting next to a person from Prudential and said to this person, I think it also had to do with the National Association of Insurance Commissioners, but anyway said, you know, insurance companies won't provide life insurance for people who are blind. And this guy said, Yeah. And the person who I knew said, Well, why don't you do everything that you do based on evidence to actuarial statistics and evidentiary data? And you have mathematical models for everything? And the guy said, Well, absolutely. That's how we make all of our decisions. And my friends said, Well, can we see the evidence that says that blind people are a higher risk? And the guy said, Sure, no problem. Six months went by, without any indication that there was anything. And finally my friend said, so where's the evidence? And the guy from Prudential said, Well, we were working on it. We haven't found it yet, but it's there. And my friend said, you don't have any do you? You have been discriminating against blind people and other persons with disabilities is it eventually expanded. But you've been doing that simply based on prejudice, and a mistaken belief that we're a higher risk without any evidence to show for it. And on the other end, we as blind people know, we're not a higher risk. Well, what that eventually led to was a campaign in every State of the Union at the time, I was living in Massachusetts. So I ran the effort for the state of Massachusetts for the National Federation of blind in Massachusetts. But to get every state to pass a law that said, you can't discriminate against blind or other persons with physical disabilities, unless you can provide actuarial statistics or or evidentiary data. And to this day, of course, no one's been able to because it doesn't exist. Yeah. It wasn't scientific at all. It was prejudice. Yep.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 37:00 Absolutely. Absolutely. And my husband had worked in that industry for a while. And yeah, and it both in the life insurance, but also in health and also in property and casualty. To be honest, at one point from in 95, and 96, I had gone back to insurance company, because I was recruited from a nonprofit specifically to help with a pilot program where they were reentering the urban environment to because they had stopped insuring in most cities, urban environments, because of flat roofs, and the fire risk that they support that they had. And my boss, an amazing person, his name was, Andre Howell had conceived of this idea that if we worked with people to help mitigate risk, we think that they'll actually perform well. And he was right. And we worked in a very specific target targeted neighborhood of Philadelphia, and offered like free inspections, and all kinds of things. And, and part of my job was to track the performance of that. Now, this was for all state at the time, and I will name them because at that time, they had lost more money in Hurricane Andrew than they had made in the history of the company. Yeah. And this is a program that they would eventually roll out across all the states. And I had been serving on the National Insurance Task Force which dealt with access, availability, and affordability, affordability of insurance and regional or in a metropolitan as well as rural areas, because there's a big issue with rural areas too. But interestingly, a division of theirs decided not long after I got there that they were going to start mass canceling and a non renewing policies in the state of New Jersey. And the actuarial logic behind it was they looked at all of the people who had had not an accident, apparently you get an accident every five years, they looked at all the people who had not had an accident within a five year period determined that they were due and decided that they were going to use a loophole in a tooth what was called the two for one law. For every two g non renewed you could take one new customer and they just started, guess what group hasn't had a car accident within a five year timeframe. Disabled people, seniors and those who only use vehicles for pleasure use. So here I was in the government relations divisions of a company whose state subsidiary was mass, non renewing disabled and non working individuals. We had agents that were losing clients like 90 a week, and of course, those individuals were taking other business with them, I've never. And this is on the heels of them having gotten in trouble because somebody had made a very inappropriate comment about why they wouldn't cover repairs to a property for a same sex couple. So it was a rough period for them that they would eventually overcome. But really just, that was some of the eye opening for me in terms of why my advocacy needed to be so much broader than just around women. So   Michael Hingson ** 40:28 is that what sort of really led you into dealing with the whole issue of inclusion and equity and so on?   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 40:36 Yes, because I had now at this point, I had worked. in Bridgeton, I had worked in Cherry Hill Township, I had worked in Camden, I had worked in Philadelphia, looking at all of this, I'm seeing all this happening, I'm looking at people use numbers in ways that they should never have to use them because they had their own proprietary insurance score. And I had to know that model. So I had to know what went into it, so I could teach it. And I realized that the problem was so much bigger than even the different things that I had in my life that were intersectional in terms of being a female being a woman of color, you know, I wasn't even dealing with the disability yet at that point. And, but just other things, and, and hearing the way people would talk about people, as groups and status as individual human beings.   Michael Hingson ** 41:34 You know, it's, oh, go ahead.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 41:36 No, go ahead.   Michael Hingson ** 41:37 It's amazing, just how, as I said, Before, people do as I say, not as I do, how people behave, you know, and most people don't think about their own disabilities, all of you who have eyesight, and I've said it several times on this podcast, have a disability as well, your light dependent, just wait till the power goes out in the building, and you got to go off and try to scrounge for a flashlight or a smartphone. The thing is that, because so many people think that eyesight is really the only game in town, our society collectively, has worked really hard to make light on demand, a fact of life everywhere. And so we've spent basically 145 years developing this technology to make light on demand available, pretty much in a ubiquitous sort of way. So most of the time, you have light on demand until you don't like when I was in a hotel in March. And I've seen it other times since then, before being a building and settling, the power goes out and people start to scream and they don't know what to do. And the fear comes in, and I'm sitting there going so what's the problem? The the issue is, you guys are light dependent. And the reality is disability should not mean a lack of ability, because it's not. Disability is a characteristic that every single person on the planet has. And what we need to truly understand and do is to recognize that the characteristic manifests itself in different ways for different people. It doesn't mean it's not there. So let light cover up your disability, but you still have it. And you can say all day long, you don't. But you do. But but we're too arrogant sometimes to really address that and deal with it. And it's so unfortunate, when that happens so much in our world today. But but the fact is, that's that's the way it is. And so I talk about it, probably more than some people would like on the podcast, because I want the message to be heard by everyone. That disability does not mean lack of ability, and everyone has that characteristic in one way or another. For my part.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 43:51 Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, no, I was gonna say AB so lute Li and I loved hearing you talk about it, on the podcast that I listened to in the speeches that I listened to. Because disability disabled individuals are among some of the most discriminated individuals in this country. And that's planet. And, you know, when you were talking about what happened to you as a child in terms of what the doctors told your parents, you know, a lot of people don't realize that in this country in this country, till as recently as 1979. They were sterilizing women to keep certain women from being able to reproduce, because it will pollute the gene pool with disabled disability character, and   Michael Hingson ** 44:37 there were courts who backed that up. Yes. And supported eugenics like that. Yes, exactly.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 44:43 And so, you know, I mean, depending on it had I didn't born in a different state, God knows what would have happened. Yeah. But you know, in California was one of the biggest ones. And, you know, a lot of people don't know that because we don't talk About those parts of our history, but whether I was paying attention, I'm really good at listening. And I realized that it's naturally human beings tend to want to group things. They all want to be seen as individuals, but they want to put everybody else in groups. And you could say, you know, people talk about, you know, different immigrants being stupid. I'm sorry, How many languages do you speak? Because they may be struggling in English. But most, most people I know, who have immigrated here know at least one if not five, or six. My Spanish is terrible got Mexico, to for my honeymoon. I mean, people who have all these diverse people, we are all wonderfully and perfectly made, depending on whether or not you believe in God, we've written to flee imperfectly made in God's image. Yeah. And if the Bible says God makes no mistakes, who are we to think that any one else is any less? More superior, less, less superior? Or that we're more superior than anyone else?   Michael Hingson ** 46:19 Well, except that in Oh God, George Burns said that he made a mistake, because he made avocado pits too large. Yeah. Oh, my God to sneak that one in.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 46:34 Which is funny, though, only. But   Michael Hingson ** 46:37 I hear exactly what you're saying. The fact of the matter is, and kids especially I was talking with someone earlier today. And we were we were doing another interview, and we were talking about children and growing up and how kids are, are fun loving, they are full of adventure. And they don't have all of these agendas. And it's so unfortunate that we teach this in so many ways to children, and they grow up with these these horrible attitudes to a large degree, and there's no need for it. Children aren't evil. But we make them that way.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 47:17 Well, we could say that about a lot of things, right? I mean, a thing is a thing. It's, it's how we use it. Now, children are born a blank slate, it's what we write on it. Right. And the younger, we can undo that the better. And which is a huge part of you know, you know, like I said, my third pivot was was my most recent pivot after going to grad school. Because I was determined, I was going to get that master's degree before I turned 50. And then getting long COVID. I was like, Okay, you're still here. What are you going to do with this? And I said, well, since grad school, I've been talking about it, because here I am this black female who's been, you know, the first list the first you know, first black female here at first black female there because I was lighter skin, I was palpable, which gets into a whole other issue. And I didn't say quote, unquote, sound black or growing up, the black kids would say your family talks white. Half of my family is white, all my cousins are all interracial. That was my way my dad's family was three possible shade. So it was just normal to me. But then in the post Obama era, it was a little bit more normalized. For a while, oh, if I had $1 for every time somebody said, Oh, she speaks so well. I'd be very, very rich. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 48:45 if I had $1, for every time somebody said, you're amazing. And of course, what they're really saying is, especially for a blind person, you know.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 48:53 And so after getting COVID, and realizing I was still here, and seeing the spotlight shine on all things that were broken with our health care system, and then some, for anybody who was a person of color, who had an existing disability. Some of the things that I experienced. I actually had to I was like, Mom, you deal with the hospital, you're a nursing professor, you're Caucasian. They're not listening to me. You just deal with it, because they're not listening to me. Because there's so many of us continue to have to deal with ongoing symptoms before anybody would acknowledge that that was a real thing. The and so many people who are in the disability community, we're right in there with us. We're all in there together finding each other and social media and Facebook groups, because no one would listen to us. Mm. That's when I was like, Okay, it's, you're still here, you're here for a reason, it's time to get vocal about everything that's broken in this country about how we treat each other in general. And as the person of color in many organizations back when it was still called affirmative action. And having been part of integrating teams and corporate and government agencies, and seeing the narrative shift. Over the years, I was already getting concerned. And then when everybody was exposed to what so many of us knew, in the death of George Floyd and others, while everybody else said, Okay, stand up, this is a time for celebration, people are finally going to live, learn, change is going to happen, companies are issuing pledges everywhere, we're finally going to get the change that's been coming. And me, I'm on a webinar, still in very deep throes of long COVID with massive cognitive issues. And I said, here's my concern. And I meant to say backlash. I said, the black lashes coming. And that stuck. I see, I see, give it time. People know, when things aren't authentic. People know, when change is being shoved down their throat, people don't like being told that they're responsible for things that they didn't have happen. And saying, Now, you know, how it feels to be me is not the right response for that. And people started reading books about anti racism and all these things I said, I'm telling you, and then I repeat it, I said, I'm gonna keep using the word the black lashes coming since 2021, on record in a webinar. And now we have what we're seeing in Florida, and other states, and book burnings, and Supreme Court decisions. And all of these things as the pendulum swings back from one side to the other. And companies are eliminating diversity, equity inclusion programs, and people are leaving this fairly new kind of practice, for lack of better words. I mean, they've been, it's been slowly been evolving from diversity, diversity, inclusion, diversity, equity. And, and I've been saying for eight years, we're doing it all wrong. doing it all wrong. At no point, in over 20 years, if I ever brought a new hire into a situation without first addressing what needed to be addressed in house to create the environment that would make it possible for them to succeed, we should be doing it differently. And then, of course, after my assault, I was like, we have a serious civility issue. Just in terms of me, you can only legislate how people treat each other so much. But we have serious civility issues going on in workplaces that aren't being addressed, for all of the wrong reasons, across different groups. And it's time that we get our houses in order in terms of civility, then focus on creating the inclusive environment that it should be, then look at the equity issues within that environment, then you bring in the diversity hires that you want to bring in to help your company capitalize on the 30% return on investment that most companies that are diverse actually experience when they are run properly. In a truly, you know, culture add way, and then everybody can succeed. Otherwise, they're just hiring somebody that person comes in, they can't function, they quit. Everybody throws up their hands and says, Oh, well, we tried it didn't work, move on.   Michael Hingson ** 53:46 Tell me about purpose, build solutions and evolutions, if you would.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 53:49 Sure. It's a purpose built solutions and evolutions while I was in grad school, and I've been doing coaching internally and externally, since 1997. And I was asked, in grad schools, what as part of one of my classes to come up with a two or three word way to describe what I am from a professional standpoint. And I described myself as a Resource Navigator. And because so many of my roles involved, either giving the answers or putting people into the direction where they could find the answers. And so I had been doing everything that you're not supposed to do as a business as a side hustle. And Maryam with long COVID I go ahead, I finally get my international coaching Federation certification that I've been putting off for 12 years. And my coach says, When you get to start a business, you've helped like 1000s of others when you can actually do it yourself. And I figured, okay, so put was filled solutions and evolutions was originally going to be purpose filled solutions and evolutions navigators. But I've refiled the service mark to drop the the navigators, even though I still use it. Solutions navigator was already taken. So I was like, well, everything I do is coaching around the purpose. Once your why what is your core purpose? I know mine, mine is helping others figure out theirs, and then achieve it. And after about three weeks of analysis, paralysis, and finally settled on purpose built solutions, and evolutions, a company that would offer the coaching that I had been doing, but also capitalize on my years of experience in various leadership roles, from supervisor up to Executive Director, as well as my Masters of Science and executive leadership and all that I had learned in grad school with a big focus on fixing what I felt was broken with what I call civility, inclusion, equity and diversity. And my company's turned to in June. And I have a team of consultants that support me, and a young woman that I hired from a program that I served as a leadership coach in breathe and shout out to Braven, which is a fellowship program for college students. I brought her in as an intern, and then hired her as my team. And she was a young woman who came here at the age of three, as part of her parents trying to escape Mexico. And she's DACA. And she's going through the citizenship process. And she couldn't find a job in the DEI space. And so we after a number of things, I asked her apologize for the parking. After a number of meetings, I asked her, Okay, we've had all these conversations about what I feel is wrong with the tape all of the information that I gave you, and then I want you to go and I want you to research and I want you to come back and tell me how you would redo my inclusion, equity and diversity program. And she came back. And she said, I think we need to start with mental health and physical disabilities. So this young woman who herself was an immigrant, who had was given carte blanche to look at everything that we should be looking at as part of a program that focuses on inclusion, equity and diversity, had every reason to throughout her life to come back with any number of options. And that's what she came back with. And I said, Okay, would you like a job as consultant? And how would you like to help me take take the lead and developing this program, and that's how paving the way to civility, inclusion, equity and diversity was born. Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 58:09 Well, that is pretty cool. And, and you're even making enough to pay her and everything, huh?   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 58:14 I am. That's a blessing. Unfortunately, it works out she's she's part time consultant. She just had her and her husband just had their second baby. And she's on maternity leave right now. But we did our first official full public offering of the program in June, it was very well received, people were blown away. They learned things, of course, that they were never taught and about everything from how the messages are even being manipulated to you know, you know why it's so important to see every person as an individual being and someone who I love Louis Brandeis Griggs was the one who I stole the spelling of it from because I would always say people want to be human beings. And he would always capitalize the B E. In being and so paving the way to civility, inclusion, equity and diversity, a new way of be in, in workplace and in life is our our most comprehensive flagship training program, who   Michael Hingson ** 59:24 have been some of the people who had the most influence on you as you're going through life.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 59:31 My mom obviously has been one. I mentioned a couple of Lisa Halloran who stood by me when she had everything to risk. I have to ride or die. Best Friend's one. Unfortunately. Kathy Jagger passed actually. It'll be here next week. She was also a rape survivor and we met when I was 19. She was a little bit older too. She was 32. And we bonded and she was my best friend and mentor in so many different ways. She was the reason I went to work at Prudential. We went through all kinds of things together. And you know, she will she I referred to her as one of the greatest loves of my life. And the other one, her name is Maria Callahan, Cassidy, who she relocated to an amazing new position at Richmond University only weeks before Kathy passed. So I lost I fortunately didn't lose Maria, it's, it's hard because she's not here. But these are both people that I've known since my teens and have definitely shaped who I am. My son, actually, I've learned so much from him. My son is neurodiverse. He likes to say he's not on the spectrum. He broke the spectrum. Well, that's can and and, and he is hysterical and funny and incredibly talented and incredibly brilliant. And helping navigate the public schools where we live. And watching him continue to still get back up even when he was pushed down. Because in our school district, if you are not in the box, you're basically out of luck. So we had to get an attorney for our son when he was only in third grade, to fight for his rights, and the he knows himself. And really, his biggest challenge is he has something called dysgraphia. He can recite things verbatim, but you could give him that same thing to copy, and he struggles to copy it. And that was a very difficult educational experience for him. But now he's a mechanic, he's training to be a mechanic, he wants to own his own mechanic shop, he has a lovely girlfriend, Collins girlfriend is Ariel, they've been together since they were 14 and 16. And now they are 19 and 21. Going on 20 and 22. And she is the daughter I would have chosen. I call her the daughter I got to choose. And I've learned so much because of her a lot of her upbringing is very similar to mine, they say we've we're very careful to make sure it doesn't get weird. But they say you end up with somebody very similar to your parent. Ariel and I have definitely have a lot in common and and then I would be remiss if I didn't say my husband because even though we have a definitely have our different political beliefs. He has really just unleashed me. He, one thing he stands very firm on is equal pay for women after watching some of the experiences that I go through and he is constantly up, go do it. You got to do this, you got to speak up up, you've been offered a show. I should mention Joe Cole, Antonio, my coach, she is the one who did push me off the cliff to get my show by saying I'm booking you on a local talk show. So that you have two weeks, you have a couple of weeks to get ready to go announced your business is finally open. That's the other reason why purpose filled solutions and evolutions came in. But these are some really all unique but very interesting teachers in my life. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:36 tell me really quickly if you would about your talk show.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 1:03:39 My talk show was an offshoot of Joe pushing me off the cliff, ironically, and we joke because Joe is my husband. But Joe is my coach and also probably one of my closest friends at this point. To Joe to Joe's once God wants J O. And Jo booked me on this talk show called Morning Coffee and gave me a couple of weeks. She said I know you can incorporate a business within 72 hours. I've seen you do it. You're going to do it. And so sure enough, on July 2 of 2021, I went in there. My business was two weeks old. And I announced and introduced myself and my one intern to the world. Somebody else who my son's girlfriend and told them about what I was looking to do and how I was going to change the world and the narrative and be a coach and offer services that I couldn't offer in my day job. And they came back to me and said the response to your episode was so amazing. Do you want to do a show? I was like, I was like I've always been the person on answering the questions or writing for government officials who are answering the questions. I've never been on that side of the mic. They said, Well, what do you think I said, Let me think about it. And I was originally going to call my blog, what the why? Kind of like instead of WTF, WT w. And I said, I have an idea. If you give me full control over who my guests are, would you be interested in doing a show called What the Why, and it would be conversations with diverse leaders from all walks of life, all races, genders, disabilities, ages, and I would interview them about what their purpose in life was and how they figured it out. And the station manager said, huh, yeah, let's do it. And so right now I'm on a brief hiatus because the station is in the middle of a move, but I'm in my second season. Of what the why with barber and and I have, I'm hoping to have you on in like, third season because you are so friggin awesome. And not because you're blind. You're just freaking awesome. Period. You just amazing. I'm completely and utterly amazing. But I have interviewed the smallest of businesses. My oldest guests had been in their 80s. My youngest recently was eight. He is a he's a math genius who video of him doing complex math at the age of three went viral. He was invited to join MENSA fours. Mom submitted it and he was accepted at age five. He and She both have long COVID Cynthia, shout out to Cynthia ad Nagin her brilliant son, Aiden. They're both brilliant. And she founded a health equity agency. And he is officially the paediatric spokesperson. He does not know he does not know his IQ. So cute. He had literally just turned eight a couple of weeks before I interviewed him in August. And one second, he's telling me what I need to understand about quantum singularities. And then the next second is holding up pieces of clay saying look at the ribbon I made. And he's what's funny about the interview we did is all three of us were having a level of a COVID flare up. So all three of us were having cognitive challenges. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:24 it was like a fun show.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 1:07:25 It was fun. But you know, when you're with an eight year old, you roll with it. Yep. And we just kind of laugh with but he's, he's amazing. He is training to be a chess champion, because COVID has affected his ability to do outdoor sports. And he's homeschooled with a pod of other little young geniuses like Kim. And but I got to talk with the Sunni meet. One of the people I got to interview was the biker from the village people, ah, and the first woman to be the president of the National Association of government guaranteed lenders and, you know, some local elected officials. But then like, I found out a whole side to my hairdresser. And, and his story as a small business owner who's getting ready to hand it off to his daughter, now that he's in his 60s and I know what his journey was like and how his grandparents stood behind him as a black straight male wanting to do hair.   Michael Hingson ** 1:08:28 There you go. So you have lots of lots of people. I have one more question for you. This is a very crucial question. How tall are you?   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 1:08:38 five foot six.   Michael Hingson ** 1:08:40 And how tall is your husband?   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 1:08:42 five foot eight.   Michael Hingson ** 1:08:44 Ha we did not follow in our parents footsteps. Okay, I just wanted to check that out.   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 1:08:49 But here's the flip side to that though. Yeah, they were both named Joe. My dad was a Joseph. My husband is a Joseph.   Michael Hingson ** 1:08:57 There you go. And what's your son's name?   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 1:09:00 Colin   Michael Hingson ** 1:09:01 Cartwright. You said that Yeah. Well Colin Joseph. Okay. So there's a Joseph in   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 1:09:05 all of them in my dad was was rather dark for a mixed race man. All three of them are avid outdoorsman. In my husband's not into the same kind of football basketball. My dad was but all three of them were hunters. Okay. married to former vegetarian. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:09:24 there you are. If people want to reach out to you maybe learn about your coaching and and get in touch. How do they do that?   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 1:09:31 They can find me on LinkedIn. BGardenhiremills. And you spell it sure it's B G A R D E N H I R E. Mills. I'm on all forms of social media. And honestly, if they can get Barbara Anne garden Hire Mills if you Google that and What the Why it pops up the show airs on RVN R V N television.com as well as roku. And then I believe I forwarded you some some other links to the website. I'm not going to spell out our whole ridiculously long website because I'm actually I actually bought the URLs to shorten it. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:10:26 how do I find it on Roku?   Barbara Anne Gardenhire-Mills ** 1:10:28 I believe rvn because I don't have Roku that's why it's there. Yeah. But if you go on Roku you should be able to find the channel for RV and television is supposed to be on the Roku channels are and I'll check out under the Roku channels otherwise, RV and television or there's access to it directly from my website, which is my entire name spelled out a moment of weakness. It when I was having COVID Happy hypoxia which is really not happy. But I thought somebody said to me, Oh, let it you just name your website, your company and I thought, Oh, sure. Yeah, well, yeah, well, as if my name isn't long enough purpose built solutions and evolutions because you can't have an ampersand and a website.   Michael Hingson ** 1:11:08 No, that's okay. I'm gonna go hunted down on Roku though. That'll be kind of fun. Awesome. Well, I want to thank you for being here. And I want to thank you for listening. I love to hear your thoughts about today. This has been a lot of fun and firebrands, life and lessons are definitely worth paying attention to and I really value the time that we got to spend. I'd love to hear your thoughts, please feel free to email me Michaelhi m i c h a e l h i at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to www dot Michael Hingson H i n g s o n.com/podcast. To listen to more podcasts. But you can also find us wherever Podcasts can be found. And wherever you listen, please give us a five star rating. We appreciate it. We appreciate your insights and your comments and value them greatly. Now, of course, both Barbara Anne for you and for you listening. If you know of anyone who want to be a guest on our podcast, please let us know. We're always looking for more people to come on our podcast. I'm sure that Barbara Anne could talk to you about talk shows and in finding guests. So whatever. We'd love to hear from you and we really value your time and that you took the time to be with us today. And Barbara Anne one last time. T

In this episode, host Craig Dalton interviews professional cyclist Andy Lydic. They discuss Andy's journey in the world of cycling, from his early days in high school to his decision to pursue a career as a professional cyclist. Andy shares his experiences racing for amateur teams in Spain and his transition to gravel racing. He also talks about his participation in the UCI Gravel World Championships and his goals for the future. The conversation highlights the growing popularity of gravel racing and its potential as a pathway to professional cycling. Episode brought to you by AG1. Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  About the Guest(s): Andy Lydic is a professional cyclist from Boulder, Colorado. He began his cycling journey in high school, transitioning from track and cross country to mountain biking and road racing. Andy joined the Boulder Junior Cycling team and quickly progressed in the sport. He decided to pursue a career as a professional cyclist and moved to Europe to race for amateur teams in Spain. After facing challenges with team closures, Andy shifted his focus to gravel racing. In 2023, he participated in the UCI Gravel World Championships and had a standout performance as the unofficial under 23 world champion. Andy continues to pursue his passion for gravel racing and aims to make a mark in the professional cycling world. Episode Summary: In this episode, host Craig Dalton interviews professional cyclist Andy Lydic. They discuss Andy's journey in the world of cycling, from his early days in high school to his decision to pursue a career as a professional cyclist. Andy shares his experiences racing for amateur teams in Spain and his transition to gravel racing. He also talks about his participation in the UCI Gravel World Championships and his goals for the future. The conversation highlights the growing popularity of gravel racing and its potential as a pathway to professional cycling. Key Takeaways: Andy Lydic's passion for cycling began in high school when he transitioned from track and cross country to mountain biking and road racing. He joined the Boulder Junior Cycling team and received mentorship from experienced cyclists, which helped him progress in the sport. After facing challenges with team closures in Europe, Andy decided to focus on gravel racing as a pathway to professional cycling. Gravel racing offers a unique combination of physical and technical challenges, making it an exciting and competitive discipline. Andy's participation in the UCI Gravel World Championships showcased the potential of gravel racing and its ability to attract top-level riders. Notable Quotes: "I want to use gravel as my pathway to pro... I want to write the story of what is the future of gravel." - Andy Lydic "Gravel racing is a true test of a rider's strength, endurance, and technical skills." - Andy Lydic "The U.S. has limited opportunities for young American riders to race in Europe, and gravel racing can provide a unique pathway to professional cycling." - Andy Lydic Resources: BMC (Andy Lydic's bike sponsor) It Could Be Me (Andy Lydic's title sponsor)  Maurten (Andy Lydic's nutrition sponsor) Northwave (Andy Lydic's shoe sponsor) Don't miss this engaging conversation with Andy Lydic as he shares his journey in the world of cycling, his experiences in gravel racing, and his aspirations for the future. Tune in to gain insights into the growing popularity of gravel racing and its potential as a pathway to professional cycling. Automated Transcript (please excuse the typos): [TRANSCRIPT] [00:00:00] - ():  Craig Dalton: Andy, welcome to the show. [00:00:04] - ():  Andy Lydic: Thanks so much for having me. I'm stoked to be here. [00:00:07] - ():  Craig Dalton: I'm excited to get into a little overview of your career and What's in store for you in 2024. I always love to start these conversations by just learning a little bit more about you. I mean, you've been involved in bike racing for a long time since your junior days, but why don't you just say, you know, where did you grow up and how did you originally get into cycling? **** - (): And we can kind [00:00:26] - ():  Andy Lydic: of go from there. Yeah, totally. So I'm from Boulder, Colorado, grew up here in Boulder, Colorado, and got into cycling in high school, probably my junior year of high school. I used to run track and cross country, and I used to also be a downhill ski racer previous to that, and I was pretty burnt out on track and cross country as a high schooler, just didn't find it that fun. **** - (): And a bunch of my friends were doing high school mountain biking. A couple people that I knew, but weren't really my friends at the time were doing road racing as well. And my dad was pretty into the cyclocross scene here in Boulder. We've got quite a few local events in the front range area. So he got super into that and there was sunshine hill climb my junior year. **** - (): Sunshine's a big climb here in Boulder. It takes like 45 minutes or an hour or something like that. And he was like, yo dude, if you go right up sunshine during this hill climb faster than I do, I'll take you out for a burger and some ice cream. And I was like, yeah, totally. I want to go get a burger and ice cream. **** - (): So I love those dad [00:01:23] - ():  Craig Dalton: incentives. I feel like I had one of those similar ones from my dad to run cross country one year. And it was like, that works for me. It doesn't have to be a big incentive. Just a little one works as a high schooler. [00:01:34] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah, just something. So from there, I did the Sunshine Hill climb. I actually thought I was wearing a kit for the first time. **** - (): And I think I was wearing tennis shoes on my mom's road bike. And I was like, you know, it's kind of strange, you know, you're wearing tight clothes biking out in public. But then I thought about it and I was wearing short shorts running. So it's not all that different from there. I decided I wanted to do the high school mountain biking team. **** - (): So I told the cross country coach that I was going to stop running cross country and go to the high school mountain biking team. And from there, I've had a bunch of my core friends who are still a bunch of friends. Now, some of them are really high level racers, mountain bike and road just across the country and across the world. **** - (): So they got me into mountain biking for the first season. I was borrowing bikes from people from, I don't think of the five races in the Nike league, I use the same bike twice my first year, just because I was borrowing bikes from people. And from there, I progressed into, I joined the Boulder junior cycling team and had a pretty good time there. **** - (): I did. Like three races of a cyclocross season, my senior year of high school. And then also did high school mountain biking again that summer following, I was like, yeah, I'm going to get into road too. I'd been training on the road a bit and done a couple of road races with the Boulder junior cycling team and decided from there, like. **** - (): Yeah, let's see what I can do with this bike racing thing, but was still pretty focused on going to college. It was COVID when I chose where I went to school. So I ended up going to CU Boulder. I was debating between a couple schools in California and a couple schools other places in the country and mid COVID I was like, you know what? **** - (): I'm just gonna start here at CU. See how I like it. It'll give me the chance to keep riding and see how much I like riding and from there my freshman year of college. My dream of being a professional cyclist kind of really took off. And from there on, I was like, that's what I'm going to do. I want to be a professional cyclist. **** - (): I want to race on the road. And I want to see how high of a level I can get to at this store. [00:03:28] - ():  Craig Dalton: Interesting. So going back to those Boulder junior cycling days, is that the type of program that is, you know, giving you guidance and really trying to create elite level athletes? I think of sort of the NICA program as like, Great jumping off point, obviously a lot of infrastructure to bring people into the sport and create good vibes around mountain bike racing. **** - (): Was Boulder Junior Cycling kind of a next level of that, which is a little bit more intentional to create elite level cyclists? [00:03:57] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah, I think it's a bit of a step up. It's not like what you would see with the old team that used to exist, Lux, or what you'd see with Hot Tubes or something like that. But there was definitely like a lot of really talented guys from Boulder or the front range area who went through the program, guys and girls who went through the program and have stepped up to pro road level racing and pro mountain bike level racing. **** - (): You see a couple of those guys and girls are over racing in Europe now on professional teams. A couple are gravel privateers now. So I don't think the team's intention is to create elite athletes. But I think the Boulder community and some of the mentors like Joe Lewis was my first coach there and he was a pro for quite a long time and had a lot of really cool experiences that he was able to share along with us. **** - (): And it provided the platform of inspiration so that riders like myself and riders like like Bjorn Reilly or Mattie Monroe or Riley Sheehan, all those guys came through Boulder Junior Cycling and now they're racing at the top level of the sport across the world. So it's a bit of the team and I think also just a bit of the Boulder community, pretty high achieving people here. [00:05:03] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. I remember moving out to Boulder from the East Coast and immediately being knocked down a peg because there's got such a great scene and such great riding out there. You mentioned starting CU Boulder during COVID. Was the CU Boulder cycling program able to be active during that first year? [00:05:24] - ():  Andy Lydic: They weren't. I don't think or not at least that I was involved with because we started in 2020 fall and then 2021 spring there wasn't really road racing here in Colorado and at that point I was also racing with a club team, the cinch elite club team here in Colorado so I was just racing with them. I was a cat three and then upgraded to cat two my freshman year in college that spring. **** - (): So I don't think the CU team did a whole lot that year, or at least I wasn't super involved with it if they did. And then the fall of my sophomore year before I ended up moving to Europe to start racing, I did collegiate mountain biking. I did like two races just because it was a way to keep me motivated and have fun and been doing mountain bike racing in high school. **** - (): So I was like, I want to keep doing this. It's fun racing on the dirt. I like it. [00:06:13] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, it sounds like that experience racing kind of with, with the cinch program and you're moving up through the categories at least said, Hey, I've got some, I've got some potential here taking that potential and then saying, I'm going to move to Europe is a little bit of a leap. **** - (): So can you just talk through like what that looked like and did you just move and then try to figure it out or do you, is there a way that you contacted some programs over to Europe to help you at least have a focus point? [00:06:43] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah, I sophomore fall was sitting in my dorm room and I was like, I want to go move to Europe and be a professional cyclist. **** - (): Like that's what I want to do. I don't want to go to school this spring. I want to be a pro cyclist. So I went on the databases of email contacts for all the teams in Spain, all the teams in France and all the teams in Italy. And I think I sent like 400 emails to every amateur team I could possibly get the contact to saying, Hey, what's up? **** - (): I'm 19 years old. These are my power numbers, I'm looking to move to Europe, I want to start racing, what can I do? And I think of the three or four hundred emails that I sent, I got like 16 total responses, and of 16 total responses, maybe like five of them weren't immediate no's. And from the non immediate no's, I had like a couple people entertain the conversation. **** - (): They're like, yeah, we might be looking for an American writer. I was like looking at France. I was looking at Italy. I was looking at Spain. I kind of knew I wanted to go to Spain because I speak a bit of Spanish just from high school. And so I was like, yeah, that might be easy. And then I connected with an agent who works with a bunch of the amateur teams in Spain. **** - (): And he got me placed on a team and he was like, yeah, man, like you fly out in February and this team's got housing for you. They'll take you to a bunch of really high level Spanish cup races and stage races across Spain. Like all you got to do is just be ready come February. And it was kind of, it was pretty uncomfortable at first cause I'm sending all these emails to a bunch of people. **** - (): I have no idea who they are, no idea what language they speak. And I'm just the silly American sending English emails saying, what's up? Here's my power file. I don't actually know how relatively good it is, but I'd really like to come race in Europe for you guys. Because that's the dream, isn't it? Like go racing for a European team. **** - (): So then from there, I ended up moving to Northern Spain and racing for an amateur team. And unfortunately that amateur team folded in March, which would be kind of set a precedent for how my amateur racing experience in Spain went on. So I raced with that team from. End of January, beginning of February, until the end of March, they folded. **** - (): I moved from northern Spain to Girona. Started racing with another team and got a really cool experience to go race in Denmark at some UCI races, and also do some other cool Spanish races with that team. And then they folded in July, sitting in Girona, just not sure what to do. And that's kind of what led to the whole gravel idea. [00:09:16] - ():  Craig Dalton: And was that July, 2022, just to try to timestamp it? Yeah, July, 2022. Okay. So you're sitting in, you know, the, the road aspirations are having some, some, uh, detours and some challenges along the way. You're sitting in Girona in July. Um, yeah, talk us through, how did you spend your time the rest of that year? **** - (): Yeah. So. [00:09:38] - ():  Andy Lydic: In the midst of the teams falling apart, I'd moved from the team house in Northern Spain to a friend's apartment in Girona. I was connected with a couple of different people who lived in Girona or spent time there just through Boulder, the Boulder community. A bunch of pro cyclists come and spend time here in Toronto Altitude while they're in the U. **** - (): S. And then one of my friends, Sean, was at CU Boulder and he had an apartment in Girona. So when this team folded, I was like, Hey man, can I come crash with you for a couple of weeks? And in that time, I was just training, hanging out in Toronto, get to meet a whole bunch of pro cyclists, which is really cool. **** - (): And at that time you're enamored because you're like, wow, like everybody here is a pro cyclist. Everybody here knows what's going on. And you found out after a couple months that all factor wears off and you're like, wow, like I'm, I'm just living here. This is pretty sweet. So from that time after the team folded, I came back. **** - (): Or after the second team folded in July, I came back to the US and I knew I had a prospect with a team that was hopefully gonna be starting in the fall of 2022 and gonna be officially a UCI team in the spring of 2023. And so I had that idea in my back pocket, came back to the US when I was back in Boulder for, I think it was like a month and a half total of 2022. **** - (): I raced Steamboat Gravel. I did a pretty decent ride there and that was my second time doing Steamboat Gravel and at that point I was convinced I was racing with this team that was going to be a Conti team. I had a good ride there, went back over to Europe, moved into another apartment in Toronto where I was living with some of the guys that were going to be on that team. **** - (): And we're supposed to be going to university in Girona, and the whole premise of the team was like, you're part of the team, you're going to university, and you got to learn how to become a professional athlete and somebody off the bike as well, which is super cool idea, super cool concept, and I think there's definitely space for a program like that in the sport. **** - (): This one just. Didn't end up working out. So they then fell apart in the fall. And while that was all happening, we were, me and the other guys who were supposed to be routing for the team were kind of like, okay, well we're gonna have to figure out what's next. And some of these guys were like, oh, just gonna go back to the us. **** - (): Other guys were holding on seeing if they could race with other Spanish teams. Spanish amateur teams. 'cause we were all in Spain already. So it just makes sense too. Yeah. And I was like, you know what? I've done gravel a couple times. I've done Steamboat gravel twice, and I did a local race here in Colorado. **** - (): That's pretty fun. And those races are really hard. So I want to see, you know, there's privateers popping up in the U S and there's a booming scene in the U S and there's a couple of races in Europe. What can I do to make, make that an actual thing? So then in the fall of 2022, I got a pretty good result at one of the UCI qualifiers and was able to go to the first ever UCI gravel world championships in Italy. **** - (): And that was a super cool experience because, you know, it was my first ever world championships, my first time ever seeing a bike race at that high of a level. And I was able to ride for the elite team because there hadn't been a whole lot of people who were super interested. Everyone, all the American riders were like, Oh, this is a test event. **** - (): We're going to see where this goes. And I had qualified and I was like, I want to see if I can race for the elite team. So sent some emails back and forth with you and say, cycling, they made that a pretty easy process, but it wasn't really team oriented that year. So we all just showed up, got our own accommodations, our own hotels. **** - (): I traveled with some of the friends I was living with in Toronto and yeah, just had a blast. Like, yeah. What an amazing experience. That whole trip. That race was super cool. And it was my first time getting to race against guys that were that high of a level you got to race against. Yeah. Like Matthew Vanderpool and wow. **** - (): Then our, and Greg Van Avermaet were all there. And then I'm at the back of the field. I didn't know how sick I was, but I had COVID it ended up and I was super sick, ended up DNFing the race. But I look back at that experience and I was like, that was. One of the coolest races I've ever done like standing at the start line, looking at my superheroes. **** - (): That's [00:13:43] - ():  Craig Dalton: pretty sweet. Yeah, it sounds amazing. So it sounds like, you know, you had, it's the end of the season. I think October 2022 would be the timeframe of that UCI world gravel championships. So then you're looking at 2023. Your road program has dissolved at that point. What were your plans for 2023? [00:14:05] - ():  Andy Lydic: Uh, I think it was officially December 15th or December 12th or something like that, that we were told the road program wasn't going to go on, wasn't going to exist. **** - (): So then we were all kind of scrambling and I was, the UCF just announced they're going to do this European gravel series. And I was just kind of stubborn, told my parents multiple times, I was calling them every day, like, I don't know what I'm going to do. And like, well, like you can talk to other teams, start racing for amateur teams again. **** - (): And I was like, no, I'm going to another team that's going to hold again. Like. That's just not something I wanted to keep doing because it while the racing is really cool The life off the bike when you're racing for these amateur teams is it's pretty tough and it can be really isolating and lonely Just you know, you're sitting in a team house Don't have a whole lot of access to a social life a social experience and I knew I was having a really good time in Girona, so I was like I'm gonna stay here in Girona and chase these gravel races So from that point, I was like, okay, well to race gravel, I have to have a bike to do it and I have to have sponsors to support me and I have to have a mission and a vision for what I'm going to do. **** - (): And at that point, I had just started working with a new coach and my new coach at that point was like, yeah, man, like I think there's definitely an opportunity to get to a really high level if you're racing gravel. It's the first time there's like a full UCI series, but. Check it out. Let's see, let's see where you can go. **** - (): Let's see what you can do from it. So I had a lot of really good support from my coach. I had good support from my parents. Um, the first people I started working with were BMC, who I just met in Toronto from just being in Toronto. It's, it's such a funny, small place because. So many people in the bike industry and the professional racing industry live there. **** - (): So being there and that one of the guys who works in marketing, I was able to get a deal with BMC to ride their bikes for the 2023 season. Just having that kind of gave me the confidence that, you know, I'm worth something. I'm able to go out and build my own program and build my own sponsors. And I've been learning how to make sponsor decks from my friends, from my parents. **** - (): I've gotten really good mentorship and how to put together. Like a pitch to a sponsor and say, Hey, this is who I am. This is my mission. This is how I think I can add value. This is what I want to do. And this is who I want to be. Will you help me tell that story? And from there, then I started working with on a roadway safety organization from here in Boulder, who was my title sponsor for last year. **** - (): They're called, it could be me. And they work on. Improving the relationship between roadway users, cyclists, runners, and drivers, and improving safety protocols, local legislation, and stuff like that. And I had those two in my pocket, and they were my biggest supporters through last year, and then I added a couple other sponsors to the line and was able to put together a season that, at first, I was really, really nervous about and really hesitant about. **** - (): And now, I look back on it with a lot of pride, being like, wow, like, It was December 20th, and I had no idea what I was doing. And then by the end of January, I had my first sponsor. And by the end of February, I had two more sponsors. And then the beginning of March, I actually went and raced with an amateur team, some UCI road races in Greece. **** - (): And then flew back to Girona from there, and here the gravel season is. Yeah. [00:17:27] - ():  Craig Dalton: Amazing. I mean, kudos to you for pulling that together after such a tumultuous year. I know how tough it can be for American riders living abroad and especially when you're the team you're trying to ride for, in this case, multiple teams folds right underneath you and you're sort of left with, you know, are the gods telling me something? **** - (): Should I be quitting the sport? Is there no future? So yeah, huge kudos for kind of pushing through that. I'm curious about, you know, awesome that in 2023, you kind of, you know, built this plan and you got some sponsors together. And I know you're going to be pursuing gravel pretty hardcore in 2024 and we'll get into it. **** - (): Is your mindset that You know, there will be multiple pathways for you in the future. Like there's still this idea that you could go race professionally on the road. [00:18:14] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah, I think that's the big story that I want to tell right now. I think right now gravel is a lot of guys exiting the world tour exiting pro teams, whether it's for mountain biking or cyclocross or other pro road teams. **** - (): And they use it as like a stepping stone out of their careers that gives. gravel a lot of validity in the fact that there's a lot of really high level, really talented riders that are doing these races. Like I'm getting to race against Val Verde and I'm getting to race against, um, riders on plenty of world tour teams from Israel to, uh, Alpes and Phoenix. **** - (): Like all these pro world tour teams are sending riders to these gravel races as one off expose. And then you see that at the world champs this year. And so the whole story now that I want to tell, and I knew this since last year as well, like I want to use gravel as my pathway to pro, but now that's kind of the big story I'm trying to push. **** - (): And I've been using this hashtag future of gravel that I've kind of coined and I've got a personal email address, Andy at future of gravel. com. So I'm trying to write the story of what is the future of gravel. And what I believe that to be is because the racing is at such a high level, you get. A really high level physical performance out of a gravel race. **** - (): You know, you're racing for three, four, five, six, seven hours full gas. Like it's a spring classic, but you're also on tricky technical terrain where the requirements, not just that you're a strong bike rider, but that you're. A capable bike rider as well that you're technically skilled and technically talented. **** - (): And I think there's definitely I don't know of anyone who's used gravel to get into a professional cycling organization yet, but I definitely think there's room for it. And if the directors of pro road teams are the directors of pro mountain bike teams. Are taking a look at what is really required to win these races. **** - (): They'll see the power numbers required to do these races is equal to and or greater than that of some of these really high level road races, as well as the fact that. You're getting a really good router if you pull a gravel rider out of the gravel along the road. [00:20:21] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think it's a super interesting discussion, Andy. **** - (): I think, you know, for, for listeners who maybe aren't familiar with the road scene, there used to be this tried and true pathway that involved a lot of development programs. And then maybe you get on the development team of a big pro tour team. And then maybe in your mid to late twenties, you were given a shot on the elite level team. **** - (): And the last number of years, obviously on the roadside, we've seen a lot of young athletes just kind of come out of nowhere, whether it's a Pogacar or Tom Pickock, all these riders who they clearly didn't come out of nowhere, but they didn't go through that traditional pathway. So I do think it's fascinating for you to kind of hold up your hand and say, like, I'm going to I'm going to go all in on this gravel in a world where data files can be readily shared with coaches and would be agents and teams. **** - (): They're going to see the amount of power that you can put out there. And to your point, the technical nature of a lot of these gravel races is going to showcase, yeah, you may not be racing, uh, you know, in a one day classic, but you're. On varied terrain with various technical challenges in a big group and a lot of undulation, a lot of technicality, clearly it's showing your professionalism as a, a by Candler. [00:21:37] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah, totally. And I think also as an American writer, especially it's, it's incredibly valuable opportunity right now because the U S only really has two development teams, two under 23 development teams for young American guys to get the chance to go over race in Europe. And. You know, as cool as it is to race crits, I'm A, not built to race crits and B, that's not the kind of racing I really want to do. **** - (): And that's really the only professional level of racing that you can do in the U. S. The U. S. is so crit centric that these development teams, which only have a certain number of spots for riders, can only send so many people over to Europe. So, You know, as an American rider, the pathways to getting too professional in Europe, which is where, you know, the money in the sport is the visibility and the sport is the fame and the sport is. **** - (): The pathway to that is pretty limited just because, you know, each team has 10, 12, 15 riders, and there's only two of them. There's one that's purely American and one that's got four or five American riders, but that's it. So I think having gravel as an opportunity to progress to professional could be a really unique, a really unique pathway that won't end up being that unheard of in the future. **** - (): I think if one rider can do it, I'll set a precedent. And then once the precedent's set. You'll see guys who went from high school mountain biking to gravel racing to pro teams more and more because the level of riders in America is really incredible. There's just not a whole lot of road races and there's not a whole lot of opportunity for those riders to get to the European road races where there is the opportunity. **** - (): Yeah, [00:23:15] - ():  Craig Dalton: yeah, yeah. That's super exciting. Continuing on your 2023 campaign, you got selected for the United States World Championship team once again. So you got to attend your. Second world championships, you mentioned in that first one, which I recall, there wasn't a lot of team camaraderie, um, or alignment with the people participating, but it sounds like from talking to a few of the, of the other athletes in 2023, there was much more of an alignment. **** - (): So can you talk about what it was like racing with that crew and how the day unfolded for you? [00:23:48] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah, it was a super cool experience having USA Cycling step up and say we want to go to this race and we know we have riders who can perform really highly in this race. So the US National Championships for gravel was an auto qualifier for the top three positions at that race to get to be on the Elite World Championships team. **** - (): And then everything else was a petition process and going into the petition process, I knew that I had raced more of the UCI gravel races than any other American had. So I thought I had a leg up there, but it ended up being a pretty tough process. And I think it was a tough selection process from USA cycling, because there was definitely a bunch of really deserving guys who applied to be on that elite team and who wanted to go to the world championships that applied for it, but didn't get selected because you know, the team only gets a certain amount of slots. **** - (): And so it was definitely. Definitely fortunate that I was able to get that spot on the elite team again. I think, I think I had earned it just because I had done so many of the UCI races and I had gotten pretty good results at some of them. So from there, the USA team put together an email list and we're all on the same page of Okay, we're going to this race and we want the USA to show up and show up. **** - (): And we knew we had Keegan. He's one of the most talented and one of the strongest riders in the world, just bar none. So we all showed up and USA Cycling had organized a hotel, so a bunch of the riders stayed at the hotel and, you know, they had food and everything for us. We had soigneurs, we had mechanics, and they did a really good job just organizing, putting together. **** - (): Look, we want to perform. This is what it takes to perform. So it was almost like being in a professional team for a week because, you know, staying at the hotel with the guys on the team, that was super inspiring getting to hang out with guys you've raced against, but don't really know was super fun. And then going into the race, we had a plan to ride for Keegan, which everybody was on board with. **** - (): Cause everyone's like, you know, Keegan can podium or if Keegan can win, that means a lot more than. A whole bunch of us getting 30th place. So yeah, it didn't end up working out incredibly well to ride for him. Just because in gravel, I think the nature of the sport is, you know, it is more of an individual race. **** - (): It's more of an individual sport, but we went into it all knowing, like, we're going to try and get our best rider as high up as possible. And that result, Deacon had a really great ride. He finished fifth on the day. And then the other American boys had a really good ride and I had a ride. I'm super proud of. **** - (): I call myself the unofficial under 23 world champion in gravel because I was the first under 23 rider in the elite field to cross the line. So while it's not something UCI gives a Jersey for yet, uh, I'm hoping they're going to give an under 23 world champs Jersey next year, I'll still be eligible for that, but I had, I had the ride of my life too. **** - (): There was a point in the race where I'm riding next to. Wout van Aert and Matej Mohoric, and I stick both my elbows out to see if I could touch both of them at the same time and just because it was such a surreal experience that I was riding elbow to elbow with Matej Aert, I was like, this is crazy. I had a really good ride there that I was super proud of. **** - (): And I think the course designers did an awesome job of making a course that actually really was a feeling of a gravel race course. Like we have hard gravel climbs, hard farm roads. There was flats, there was climbs. There was two river crossings in the race. Like, it definitely wasn't just a one day classic disguised as a world championship. **** - (): It was a true gravel race, and I think it spoke a lot to the riders and gave a lot of validity to the sport beyond the fact that Some of the world's best riders were racing [00:27:26] - ():  Craig Dalton: it. Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, they continue to improve the format. Obviously, they're melding what we think of gravel in the United States with what Europeans think of gravel and UCI has their own perspective on how long events should be And what they should look and feel like, but clearly like in 2023, it did capture the attention of both male and female elite level gravel racers in the United States. **** - (): And there was this dramatic shift in desire to actually go attend the worlds, which I, for one, I hope continues on. I do think it's important for us to have enthusiasm for the world championships. Cause I want nothing more than to have the rainbow stripes on an American at some point in the gravel [00:28:09] - ():  Andy Lydic: discipline. **** - (): Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, to speak to the validity of the race in the Europeans mind, like I think there was 50 plus pros in the race of including pro Conti and world tour riders. And then you add in continental riders and that's another 30 And then you have pro mountain bikers and pro cyclocross racers on top teams in the world. **** - (): Like the field was. Completely stacked. And it was really cool to see all these super high level riders there, as well as the U S putting in a really good result. Like I know Keegan was hoping to win it and I really believe he was capable of it, but you know, it's a race races don't always play out how you expect. **** - (): And I think it won't be too far in the future when we see an American wearing. I [00:28:57] - ():  Craig Dalton: love it. 2024. [00:29:02] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah. So I started the race season two weeks ago at one of the, at the Low Gap Grasshopper race in Northern California. Had a pretty fun ride there. It was for being a, one of the smaller season opener races. **** - (): There was a pretty strong field. We had Chris Blevins and Pete Stetna. Uh, Brent Wurtz and John, no, not him, but a bunch of really high level riders, super cool. So started the season there, got 7th place after a silly little crash, 4k from the line, but then Looking forwards in two weeks, I'm going to fly over to Greece and start my racing season in Greece, actually racing on the road. **** - (): So I'll do a stage race in a one day in Rhodes, Greece. And then from there, I start with the UCI Gravel World Series race. So I'll be hitting, I think, six races in Europe over a seven week period. I'll do a UCI gravel race in Austria, a three day gravel stage race in Spain. A one day UCI gravel race in southern Spain and then up to Netherlands for a one day back to Spain for Traco, which is one of the biggest gravel races in the world now, but it's, I'd compare it to like, it is the, it's the unbound of Europe and then I'll finish the season off in Scotland at the UCI gravel race there. [00:30:22] - ():  Craig Dalton: Amazing. And then will you be dipping your toe back in the United States throughout the season? Or are you mainly focused on the UCI gravel events internationally? [00:30:31] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah, after that race block, I'll come back to the U. S. in mid May and kind of refocus as the American season gets going. I think the American gravel season. **** - (): Gets going slowly. And then through the summer, it picks up quite a bit. So I won't be doing some of the big American stuff. I won't be doing Unbound, which I'm pretty happy to not be doing, but then I'll do Crusher and the Tusher. I'll do Steamboat. I'll do a couple of marathon mountain bike races. I'm hoping to go to. **** - (): Marathon mountain bike, national champs. I think that'd be a super fun experience. And then some local races here in Colorado and then the rest of the lifetime Grand Prix races after unbound. [00:31:11] - ():  Craig Dalton: Okay. Yeah. It's interesting to me, you know, I remember sort of historically speaking, they would often try to keep younger riders away from the super massive distance races, like an unbound 200. **** - (): And that's what was curious, you know, in the UCI vision of what gravel distances should be, they're not, they're not going 200 miles. They don't want it to be sort of an ultra endurance fest. They're, they're looking for it to be more active racing. How do you feel about, like, it sounds like. Not doing a 200 mile gravel race sits okay with you for this next season. **** - (): But do you think about it like that? Do you feel like 200 miles is too much for you as a younger professional? [00:31:53] - ():  Andy Lydic: I think it's hard as such a young guy to compete with the likes of Keegan or the likes of the other world tour pros coming from Europe to the U S to do onbound because These guys have lifetime miles, which gives them a level of durability that it's really hard to have as a young rider. **** - (): And so beyond the fact that it's just a long day in the saddle, I think it's hard for young riders to really perform there and you know, it's well doing as a career changing result. But that said. I really like the UCI format of the shorter races. I like racing for four hours. I like the four hours to be really hard. **** - (): I like it to be really tactical and it feels like a road race that's more technical because you've got the gravel and you've got the, you know, whether it's a tricky descent or a river crossing or something like that. It's still a hard gravel race, but you're not out there for seven or eight or 10 hours. **** - (): Yeah, like you would find in some of the longer American races. So it's nice. It's nice to get the speed from the European races and hopefully I can get the speed from the shorter races and then take it into the endurance that the longer American races later in the season will [00:33:02] - ():  Craig Dalton: require. Yeah, I think it's fascinating. **** - (): I mean, look, there's, my opinion is there's room for all these types of events on the calendar. But it is interesting. And after talking to the UCI about like their perspective on the format, I have to acknowledge that like the dynamic racing element of a four to five hour race is just higher than a, a 10 [00:33:23] - ():  Andy Lydic: hour race. **** - (): Yeah, totally. And it's not, not that the racing in the U S is like not tactical because I think it's completely tactical, but it's just a different way. Whereas, you know, if the race, if you know, the race is 130 K or it's only going to be a four and a half hour race on the gravel guys are going to take much bigger poles, have much bigger attacks and yeah, it's going to play out more like a race that you'd want to watch on TV. **** - (): Whereas, I didn't really think it'd be super interesting to follow unbound for all 200 miles of it, just because, you know, things happen a lot slower because it's a much longer race. Riders have to think a lot more about conserving. Riders have to think a lot more about whether it's their fuel strategy, their nutrition strategy. **** - (): I think, you know, that's still equally important in the shorter races. How good your pit crew is doesn't determine your result in a UCI race, because you don't have a, that's not a thing that doesn't exist. It's you go out there, you race full gas for four hours, and then when you're done The race is over and, you know, some guys are wearing hydro packs. **** - (): Some guys are not, but it's not so much a war of attrition as much as it is like a proper race. Yeah. [00:34:32] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Um, how are you supporting your 2024 campaign? Do you have a set of sponsors that are carrying over from 23? [00:34:42] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah. So I'm working with quite a few of my sponsors from 2023 continuing into next year. **** - (): And I've added a couple other sponsors as well. I think this year has been definitely tricky to get sponsors and to work with sponsors because it's so such a difficult bike market right now. You know, I've heard all across the industry, like, Oh, 2023 was a really tough year and that really impacts marketing budgets. **** - (): And marketing budgets is where, you know, privateers and writers like me get the finances to do the season. So it's actually not a complete process for me right now, figuring out how I'm going to pay for the entire season and pay for my living and everything. That's an ongoing process. And I think looking outside of the industry is something I've been doing recently as to how can I get some money and how can I share my story and how can I provide value to brands inside or outside of the industry? **** - (): While it's this late. The other hard thing for me was, you know, my best result, the unofficial under 23 world champion wasn't until October when a lot of people have already signed their contracts for next year. So my best results did come late. Moving into next year, I anticipate I'm continuing to work with BMC. **** - (): I'm continuing to work with It Could Be Me. I'm now working with Morton as a nutrition sponsor, which is really exciting and that's honestly a grail sponsor to me because I've been using their products. Been buying them for two years now and it's really exciting to get to work with the brand now. And I work with Northwave for shoes and Getting helmets from them. **** - (): So it's really cool that the product support I'm getting is really strong and fairly well covered when it comes to product, but definitely still trying to tie up some ends when it comes to financing the whole season. Yeah. Yeah. [00:36:19] - ():  Craig Dalton: Got it. Well, I love that you're forging your own way and you know, you've got a unique racing calendar that should appeal to some sponsors and wish you best of luck and certainly hope you're wearing the stars and stripes Jersey for us in the world championships again, [00:36:35] - ():  Andy Lydic: in 2024. **** - (): Yeah, that's the goal. I'd love to go back and double love it if the UCI offers up a jersey for the under 23. And even if they don't, I'm going to go and see how good I can do in that elite race. So that's the goal. [00:36:49] - ():  Craig Dalton: Amazing. Thanks for the time today, Andy. Great to get to know you. [00:36:53] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah. Thanks so much, Craig. **** - (): Have a good one.    

This episode is... about... COVID I guess? You'll see. It'll all make sense. Or not. For extended episodes, bonus content, and most importantly, for an AD FREE SHOW, make sure to pledge on Patreon! Join the Facebook Group! facebook.com/groups/dearolddads For comments, email thedads@dearolddads.com Follow us on Twitter: @DearOldDads Facebook Page: Dear Old Dads on Facebook

Since 2002 I haven't missed many Ironman World Championship events. Being on the Big Island during race week is a magical time Having missed a couple since Covid I realise how lucky I've been to be able to travel each October. I also met my wife Beth on the finish line while volunteering so now it has a special place in our hearts. 2023 is one of those years I missed and I'm especially sad about that because the racing was exceptional at both Nice and Kona.   The IRONMAN World Championships have been held in Kona, Hawaii since 1978. Covid forced a change of location to St George for the 2021 race (which had to be held in May 2022), and then in 2022 World Triathlon Corporation experimented with two races on different days. For whatever reason, more changes happened in 2023 so this year we had the mens-only race in Nice in September and then on the usual second Saturday in October we had the female-only race in Kona. Our favourite triathlon journalist Tim Heming was lucky enough  to go to both events and he joins me today to discuss his thoughts on:    Tim's top 10 predictions versus the final results the concept of splitting not just race days but also venues atmosphere in both locations leading up to, and on, race day overall quality of racing not just for the pro athletes but age groupers as well (this is especially poignant given the negative publicity that WTC were receiving before the Kona event) does the split venue format have enough support and momentum to continue after 2025?   If you want to follow Tim for his insights on the world of triathlon you can find him on Twitter (X): @TimHeming   To contact Beth regarding Life Coaching, please email her at Info@BethanyWardLifeCoaching.uk.   To leave a review of the podcast on Apple podcasts CLICK HERE.   Sports Nutrition questions - if you have a sports nutrition question that you would like answered on the podcast, please email it to me via Beth@TheTriathlonCoach.com.   Join our SWAT/High Performance Human tribe using this link, with a happiness guarantee! You can watch a brief video about the group by going to our website here, and join our SWAT High Performance Human tribe here. Purchase a copy of my High Performance Human e-book featuring more than 30 top tips on how to upgrade your life. If you would like to help offset the cost of our podcast production, we would be so grateful. Please click here to support the HPH podcast. Thank you! Visit Simon's website for more information about his coaching programmes. Links to all of Simon's social media channels can be found here.  For any questions please email Beth@TheTriathlonCoach.com.

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we review "The Morning Show" season 2. This season is pretty heavy with themes of substance abuse, toxic relationships and Mitch Kessler's [SPOILER ALERT] death by suicide. We spend time discussing cancel culture and the complexities of the human experience. We also explore Cory's charcter, is he hypomanic? Or is it more of an ADHD presentation we are seeing? Who does Bradley choose? Is everyone in love with their mother? Listen now to your favorite TV loving shrinks for our full break down. We hope you enjoy! Instagram TikTok Website Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And your DSM Five and enjoy. We get started. We just wanted to include a trigger warning for this episode. This episode could include discussion about some themes and topics that might be upsetting, including, but not limited to things like substance abuse, suicide, self harm, disordered, eating, and harassment and assault. So if any of those topics are too upsetting, we totally get it. Please feel free to skip this episode and join us next week. Otherwise, we hope you enjoyed. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Thanks for joining us today to cover the Morning Show season Two. If you have not listened to our take on season one, feel free to scroll back a couple episodes in our feed. Season two did come out in September of 2021, which was kind of in, like right. The throes still of COVID I mean, not like the Lockdown, which this show oh, my God. With that visual of New York City, which was eerie, to say the least. But did you watch this in real time? Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: No, I think I watched it last year, maybe, but rewatching it again. I had, like, a visceral reaction to all of the COVID stuff. What about you? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was weird. I really like and we talked about this about season one, how they show, right? Like, real time things. And it's so funny thinking back to hearing about, you know, it was like, in more of the Asian countries in Asia. It was kind of, like, sprinkling through. And I remember having some friends traveling internationally and being like, yeah, it was weird. Like, a lot of people are wearing masks, not domestically. And then all of a sudden, it was here, right? And it was like this very March white. I don't know, like, the grocery stores were full, and then they were empty. Schools were open and they were closed. It wasn't a smooth transition. Oh, this is coming. It was just like, okay, we're making this decision. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, my gosh. I remember I'm so ashamed to admit this, but I was supposed to go on a bachelorette party to New Orleans, like, right in mid March, and it was for my very good friend, Dr. Kristen Heisel, an infectious disease physician at Mass General Hospital, so you can imagine what her March 2020 turned into. But as the news of COVID was, like, trickling in, I remember sitting in the psychiatrist talking to a colleague being like, this is just going to be like ebola where we all freaked out. And then it was fine. And I was like, trying to tell myself this because I really wanted to go on this Bachelorete trip and I feel so selfish saying that. Should we cut that? Like, does that make me look at. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I can share a similar thing. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But then my friend kristen called me after they had this super secret meeting at MGH and was like, we're not like, you need to go to the grocery store immediately. This is like a really big deal. Harvard is preparing. They've talked to like, this is going to be a really serious thing. And I was like, oh, my god. And then two days later, yeah, everything shut down. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's funny because I was in DC. In February, like mid February, and there was still nothing. I don't know which speech I know that's not the right word for it was happening, but everyone in congress and the senate were there and it was really busy and it was fine. The airports were all good. But then I ended up having to come back from puerto Rico early. So I've told this story, obviously to my friends, but for my new friends out there listening. So we had been here and meeting family down in puerto Rico who had missed it by three days of what was kind of happening. And we were like, should we go? Should we not? And we're on the airplane, it's about to take off. They shut the door and everyone's like, phone alerts start to go off if you have news alerts. And it was that all international travel was stopped and we weren't going internationally. But I was immediately like, I need to get off this plane. Obviously I couldn't. So we went to Puerto Rico. We told our family that was down there and they just did not get it's. The like, this isn't a big deal. Why is everyone up there freaking out? Brian were like, my partner and I were like, how can you not understand? The grocery stores are empty. So we ended up flying home early and thank goodness we did because the island closed down. There was a ship in the port there from Italy that had some italian travelers that were sick and so it was just chaos. And then I remember coming back to work on Monday and we closed, right? So we had this meeting of how we were going to handle it. Everyone took their laptops and we went home. And then I never went back to that job. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, it was scary. I don't know, I feel like triggered watching this show and all the COVID stuff. It's like hard for me to watch. I notice kind of like not looking at the empty street. It's just like really hard for me to watch. I thought they did a magnificent job, though, covering it and how they had Daniel, the lone wolf, sort of like raising the alarm and seeing how Mia, who's now in Chip's old role, is kind know, not covering, know, choosing other stories to cover instead. And then they send him to China, right? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And he is just like in the throes of it being like, this is serious. They keep giving him a short segment, they cut his segment, he's like but. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It'S so symbolic of how we were all thinking about it until it was really serious, right? And then we sort of see the COVID sprinkled in, I thought, even starting with New Year's Eve and how joyous it all was, like, woohoo. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: 2020. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And now as we watch it, you're just like, if we all knew what was coming. And then they still sort of sprinkle in COVID throughout the whole season as it builds. And I enjoyed how they kept reminding us of the date. Like, oh, Alex comes back February 20. And I was like, oh my God, that's like three weeks before it's going to start. And then her last day was like March, I don't know, like 14th or something, right? Like, it just kept building and building and building till we see Alex with COVID and we see Bradley, like, rushing into the Er to find her brother in the chaos of the emergency room with COVID cases. And it was just like, we see them all go home and trying to figure out contact tracing and Corey with. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The and being silly with like, I don't know what that know? Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Well, we didn't know what it meant. And Corey's like, can you stand can you step back? 6ft, right? Oh my God. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was such like an awkward time because I think everyone it was new social norms that we all had to just adopt and everyone had their own length of time for getting on board with specific social norms or not. And I think it was just like, there's a lot of awkward interactions with people. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think what I found personally interesting as a physician and as a psychiatrist, as the time when it all hit, I was still doing some moonlighting at a local hospital and fortunately that was like extra work. And so as soon as I started to feel unsafe, I stopped. And I had a lot of guilt over that, but certainly I had a couple of shifts. I never will forget how scared I felt because I didn't have enough PPE. And I remember nurses coming in and smuggling in masks to each other and saying, don't tell the supervisor. And we were trying to figure out, as a psychiatrist, what do you do when there's a code and you don't know if the patient's COVID positive? Like a behavioral code, agitation, delirium, things like that, that you get called for in the middle of the night, like, how close do you get? How close do you not get? We didn't know yet how is it transmitted? How does it affect if you have history of asthma, how does it affect you? How does it affect kids? All of that stuff. I just will never forget being so scared. And I remember leaving one of those shifts and realizing, like, I can't do this right? Like, I'm terrified. And one of the nurses being like, Dr. Fury, are you okay? And I was like, no, I'm really not. And then I think as a physician, realizing this is really serious, during that time when everyone was trying to figure out, like, do we really need to stay home? Do we really need to stock up? And when people were like, oh, it's just 60 days lockdown. And I was like, this is going to be years, and it's just hard to watch. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It was an interesting theme, like, you said that even I know one of the producers who went up to Mia with one of like it was a COVID story about a number going up, but there was also, like, three other things happening that day. And she was like, Nope. No, we're not running that story. And it's just right. Like, they didn't and then all of a sudden, it was the most important thing, right? Like, in mid March, everyone that's all anyone could talk about. And I remember, funnily enough, with the morning show being like, right, a news network. I'm just not, like, a news watcher. And I watched the news, right, for like, 72 hours when things had locked down. And then I was like, this isn't. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So great for my mental mental health. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, but it was wild. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It was wild. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Dr what was it? Fauci. And then that woman with the scar, Deborah. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And just watching them try to keep their composure. I'll never forget that. Meme going around with Dr. Fauci, like, touching his forehead in frustration and being like, you know, it's bad when the man telling you don't touch anything is like touching its head in frustration, right? And they showed clips of Dr. Fauci in this. So the season does culminate with COVID and I'm really interested to see now that we know season three is about to come out, like, how does that evolve? But there was a whole lot more in season two, and I have no idea how we're going to cover it. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: All in this know? So so we have some new characters. We have Stella, who's the new president of the news division. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think she took Cory's job. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yep. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And then Corey took Fred's job, right, because they fired Fred. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, that was a little I mean, it became clear, but right at the end of season one, it seemed like Corey was going to be let go, and then they ended up letting Fred go. And then Corey stepped into that role, which is what he wanted, right. And I think he kind of set some things up so that happened. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I think also we come to find out he's kind of in cahoots with right? Like, it kind of sounded like I was a little confused by this, but it kind of seemed like Bradley thought she walked in and said, I'm not coming back if you don't rehire Corey. And then they did. But then we sort of found out later on that Fred was like, corey should be my successor and give me all this money. And then he's maybe pulling some strings in the background. So he's like gone but not really gone. That kind of confused me. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Corey is an interesting guy. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Do you think he's hypomanic? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He is something. He is so animated and constantly hyper and activated. I just want to know his routine off when he's not at work. We saw some of his exercise routine. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: When I saw that I was like, I think he's hypomanic constantly on the go. But explain that a little bit. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So when we think about hypomania, what we mean by that clinically is when you think about depression, we think about people who have clinical symptoms of depression for two weeks or more. That's where your mood is lower than your average baseline. We all have mood fluctuations over the course of our life, but when you're feeling depressed, your mood is way too low. Now, the flip side of that is something we call mania. This is what we see when you have something called bipolar disorder where not only do you have the depressive episodes, but then you also have the manic episodes where your mood is way too high, right? Like, you don't need sleep. You're talking a mile a minute. You have all these big grandiose ideas. You're really impulsive. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And people can tell. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: People can tell when you are fully manic. That's a psychiatric emergency. You need to go to the emergency room. A lot of times people end up getting hurt either because they're doing something really risky like skateboarding down a highway or something or because they're using substances or sex, gambling, spending money, things like that. There's something in between what we call euthymia, which is like a typical normal baseline mood. You still have fluctuations because you're human, but it's all within a controlled range of feelings. It never dips too low or too high. Mania is like the highest you ever get. Hypomania is kind of like halfway in between. And some people with hypomania function really well in society. Like maybe corey, right. Like, maybe he only needs 4 hours of sleep. Cool. He can get a lot more work done. Maybe he has boundless energy, but he's not like, talking way too fast or having really big ideas that are people with mania might write their memoirs on postit notes and put them all over their room, for example. He's not really behaving like that outside the norm. But sometimes people with hypomania are really successful and productive because they just don't need as much sleep, and they have more energy than the average person. He also could be abusing stimulants or something. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He could be and sometimes I think there's that little edge or overlapping, also, potentially, of ADHD, just like, really hyperactive. You know, what if you have ADHD? Some of the symptoms with mania are not presenting, though. But just that on the go. And we think about people who, in adulthood often find careers that do fit better if you have attention hyperactive or you're inattentive. It's hard when you're a child. I know I'm taking a little bit of a left turn here because school is pretty much the same. Right? We have expectations for everything. But when you get into adulthood, there's so many hands on careers. There's so many careers that you can be on the go that we see people typically be able to function a little bit better with that. So even I'm wondering for him, right. He's constantly being stimulated. He's constantly thinking of these things. So it's like that's a great point. He's got something, though. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Man, I'd love to evaluate him. He also has a history with his mom, which we won't get into all the details. Please watch the show. But which clearly influences his behavior and his love, it seems like, for Bradley. One thing I thought season two did a really interesting job of is, like, depicting how they're all falling in love with who I imagine their parents were. Right. I don't know. What did you think? Did you pick up on that at all? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Or, like, with Bradley. Right. It's like, for me, I felt like Laura was someone she never had. Right. Like, safe. She was really empathetic, really nurturing, really sweet, kind, really good advice, really validating, not dismissive. And then it's just, like, interesting now with, like, in the mix. It's like, who know in season three, I guess, where does and it's like it depends on, I think, where she is with herself and doing work or not. Because I would say and again, this is just like a guess if she hasn't done work on herself, I could see her picking Corey, and if she has, then it's like Laura. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So I think it's going to be Cory. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: What did you think about that scene with Laura and Bradley where Laura was encouraging Bradley to go to therapy? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought it was excellent. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. I thought it was so gentle. Yeah. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You're crazy. You need to go to therapy, or you need to get over this, so you should go to therapy. It was just, like, very like, it seems like you need to talk about this, or you need some support, you need someone to help you figure this out. Stuff with your brother. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes. After her brother Hal. And we'll get into this a little more later. That depiction of being the sibling of someone with an active addiction coming from a dysfunctional home life, we'll definitely get into all of that. But I thought the way Laura so, like, validated how hard all of that was for Bradley and said, I think you need some help figuring this out. Have you tried? Therapy was just such a nice way to bring it up. And then I thought it was so honest when Bradley was like, I think they're going to tell me I'm crazy, I'm scared. And I was like, girl, me too. I hear you. I think we all feel like that, right? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And what a great Know line for her to say, right? Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I thought that was such a beautiful depiction of sort of like a nice way to encourage someone you love to seek help and a really nice way to introduce a really tough concept of boundaries and when is it time to walk away? That's hard. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's hard. And I think in the spirit of therapy, everyone could use it on the Know. I think Mia certainly needs some support. I mean, what a complicated loss she is experiencing. Right. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's like Mitch, you mean? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And even just of this distance, right, of just know, fall from grace as a loss, his loss of the show and then ultimately, right, like his death and then reporting on it and you can see her tearing up. But knowing that he also did all these horrible things and know had come out in this episode, these questions around, like, was he praying specifically on black mean? I just was like, Mia, I would love to I don't just I really like her character. I really empathize with her and I would love for her to get all the support she can. She seems like she's throwing herself into work, which is the job. I mean, I think it just is what it is. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: At the end of season one, he looked so haggard and disheveled and exhausted. And I was like, you are like, going to collapse at the beginning of season two. He looks great. He's like well groomed. He's engaged. He's got this beautiful little house. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's driving a Subaru. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: He's probably getting 8 hours of sleep a night. He's probably exercising. Maybe he's playing pickleball. Like, he looks so good. And it was fascinating to me how he so early on told Bradley, like, if I ever talk to Alex again, I got a lot to say to her. But then when she shows up and asks him to come back, he's like, okay, yeah. Why do you think he did that? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know if it was a selfish, not like, self seeking, self serving thing where it's like, I do want to be a bigger producer, right? Like, I'm this little smaller station and this is really my world. Or was it his connection with Alex? Does he think he owes her? Is there, like you had mentioned before, a trauma bond with like I don't know if it was for I mean, it could be all of those things at the same time. So what about you? Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think my theory is that I do think, like, near the end when they have that knockout fight in the car where they're really raging at each other and she mentions that she feels like he's in love with her and she doesn't love him like, that that got me thinking, like, is that true? Especially because then when he was making out with his fiance and was like, let's go do it in Alex's office, and that is kind of creepy. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It got me thinking, like, was his mom, like Alex? Did he have a self centered, narcissistic mother who was constantly absent or critical? And is he seeking that validation unconsciously? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But is he seeking that approval, that acceptance, that validation in a super unhealthy way? That's what I think. So I'd love him to get some therapy too. And I think what we were talking. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: About with who Bradley will choose based on her own internal path, I think same with like, if he is a well self, he's going to choose his current right like life, right. Working at the smaller station with his this this quiet, healthier, seemingly life, but maybe not so big and showy, right? Like you could see him kind of being pulled back and back and back into this abusive relationship. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. And we see that with how in that final scene or the final episode when Alex is on air with COVID which was weird that he lied and said he tested positive too. So he's like, totally around her. He could have just put a mask on if he could find one. I guess back then they were hard to find, but we see his fiance call and he declines it. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He also then puts something on the prompter that Alex wasn't expecting, which is like, so are you getting back at her or you just like it was confusing of where they're going to land. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: 100% because in so many ways, their relationship continued evolving in a very raw, honest way. But then we continued to see the power dynamic stay the same when she FaceTimes him. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. Initially from bed and after, they are still not okay. They had just had that big fight in the car. And then she's like, very sick. He's being kind, but he gets sucked. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Into her again and again. And she keeps using him as a narcissist will do again and again. And I felt like at the very beginning of season two with Alex, she's in her little chalet. It looks so cozy. She has a dog now. She's writing her memoir. And you see when she comes back to the station, that dinner party at Corey's house, I felt like she put on such a good mask of like, I've really done a lot of self reflection. I want to be different. And then as the season progresses, under more and more stress and scrutiny, I just feel like she's the same old narcissist she's always been. And we see it in such a big way that she goes to Italy to get this letter from Mitch as if he's not again, she doesn't care what he's dealing with. She doesn't care that know, at that point, we knew COVID was spreading. She doesn't care. We see how much she doesn't care about other people. She kicks them off the private jet so she can get back. She goes back to work despite knowing she was in it. She doesn't answer chip's phone calls for like weeks. She's just so utterly selfish and it's. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Just such a big and telling Mitch's wife, right. I think she thought that she was being so kind, like, I'm going to tell her, look at me. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I'm such a person. Look at me. But it's like, no. And I loved when Mitch's wife really put her in her, right? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, because her whole world was shattering then. Because it's like other people know, right? She had been so desperate to protect that secret that her and Mitch had know consensual sex. And now it's like, well, actually, other people do know, or other people. There were whispers. And then when Bradley got the excerpts from the book and she's interviewing Maggie, it was just so fascinating to watch Alex unravel, right? Because her whole world had changed. She's no longer in the driver's seat. Her world is falling around her. People are starting to not like her. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Because people are seeing the real her. And the whole world was about to see the real her. Like, we saw Daniel's reaction to the real her. And I was really proud of him again, in that early scene at the dinner party, that he didn't just let her off the hook and like, because that's what he's supposed to do. He really held her accountable. And you see how much he does not like that. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Daniel may be doing some work therapeutically. He is starting to stand up for himself more. He's setting is he is doing what feels authentic to him. You know what? Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: He has the it factor. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Okay. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I agree with his grandpa. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Okay. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I didn't love the cringy song and dance for Alex, and I'm sure that was humiliating for him, but he's got the if factor. And I would be ****** if I were him that I almost got the job at the other network and I agreed to stay. And then Alex just like, stabbed. He just uses people. We really saw that in that scene with Laura when they talked about going to see Bring into Noise, bring Into ****, we see how even with like and I thought this was actually really smart of the writers because it shows that Alex has always been this way, that she was new on the scene. Laura was like know, she was like the lead anchor. She was closeted at the time, but she had some close friends who knew. And it sounds like we're accepting, but it wasn't the kind of thing you just shouted from the rooftops back then. And then soon after, Alex coming into the social circle, all of a sudden it leaks and all of a sudden she gets fired. And then Alex disappears but rises up the ranks. And it was just really interesting to see Alex try to get on Laura's good side and sort of remember that whole scenario so differently from how it actually happened. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Do you think that there was malicious intent or do you think Alex just had no, no. It was either malicious intent or zero self awareness at that time. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Honestly, I feel like for someone with narcissistic personality disorder, how do you split the difference? I really feel like Alex meets criteria for that and she's always just it might not be conscious, but unconsciously thinking for herself and putting her own needs first. And the whole world revolves around her and quite literally it does. Being in such a powerful position in the media, we see again, people kick people off the private jet so she can get home. Chip comes in and exposes himself to COVID so she can go on the like, quite literally, people do revolve around her. So it's hard to like, was it malicious or was it just selfish? But where's the line? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I saw a really interesting TikTok with Alison Stoner. So she was a child star and so she just made this video. It's from September 1, if you want to watch it. And she kind of speaks on how in the film industry, especially starting out with in childhood, how narcissists are kind of grown, even if it's not like rightly. You're born with the trait. And so I think what we've talked about also with Succession 100% is just like how do you have developed drive, right? This internal drive that maybe separates you or you have what do you call it? Like predestined predetermined. Pre, whatever that word is. I'm not saying it predisposed to something that maybe comes out in some people, not others. I don't really see it in Daniel. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. But maybe is that why he's not so as successful? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Because he's not so brutal? Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That's the thing, is you have more empathy and you think about others. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And so that kind of holds him back. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Exactly. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Whereas Alex was thinking for herself and wanted what she wanted and was going to get it at and then she. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Did and then she did and then she did over and over and over again doing it. And then there are her expectations. I mean, even her family we saw in season one way more, but the facade with her partner, they did that because of her career, because she asked them to. It was expected. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And when you're on her good side, when you're on the good side of the split, she is so charming and funny and. You feel special being in her orbit, right? Like, we see that time and time again with Chip. And I feel like that's how she keeps sucking people in to help further her own agenda, though. That's the thing. Even Bradley again, I think because Bradley hasn't done the work, she's getting sucked in in a way that they I don't even think consciously realize. But Bradley's getting sucked in, too. And in many ways, we see that Bradley's mom, although very know in terms of not being successful, not being wealthy, but is still very critical, dismissive and invalidating. Much like Alex's, when you're on her bad side, like when you try to confront or criticize or point out that she's done something wrong, quickly flips on you. But I think that's why Bradley keeps getting sucked, why all these people get sucked into her orbit and she just uses them to get what she wants. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So what do you think? Do you think it was Bradley being sucked in? What do you think about the interview with Bradley? And, like, what was Bradley's angle? I mean, I liked it. I know a question I'm saying to me. I liked it in the fact that I don't like Maggie, really. And I don't know if that's because I'm in Alex's. I just thought as a woman, instead of being about Mitch, which I'm not saying that in the way that it dismisses, because Alex is not like, a good person, really, but the fact that she kind of lied the whole time about what the book was. And it's like, I remember when Bradley was scrolling through the pages, gets in the back, right? She see her name twice. And then Alex, it's this huge thing. She's on the COVID And I thought that was a really I liked how she challenged her on some of like, why isn't this about Mitch? This was supposed to be about all of the guys and whatever. And yes, Alex is a part of that, which she doesn't want to admit. But I did appreciate kind of the pushback on, too. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I did too. And I think I would imagine Alex has really hurt Maggie. She must like I feel like this was Maggie's way of calling her to the carpet. Is that a saying? Maybe we'll go with know, like, holding her accountable and being, like, exposing who she really is to the world. But I think what Bradley was saying was, like, was that your right? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Why'd? Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: You do know, why did you do this? Especially when she came to you and begged you not to. And that is true. She did. It was interesting. Yeah, I think it was really interesting. I don't think Alex expected it at all. I don't think anyone did. And then I'm wondering, why did Bradley do it? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right? Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And again, is it like. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Corey keeps putting her in these interesting, like, of, well, you should do it because you're fair. And it's like what does that mean? Remember when he's like, can you do the interview? And she's like, well, why? I don't know. This might be difficult. And he's like, I just know that you'll be really fair. But it was a drawn out it was intentionally that we heard that moment. What does that mean? Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I feel like especially in season two, we see that I hate this about professional settings, when people are saying one thing but really meaning something different and you have to learn the lingo and the undertones and what's being implied. I feel like we saw that a lot with season two. So just that when he's saying fair, does he mean, don't hurt the network. Let's keep us in a good light? Is that what he really means or does he mean, you'll be fair? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it's almost both. But I'm only saying it's both because I think the fact that he likes her complicates things for him. I don't think he's used to that. I don't think he knows what to do with Bradley initially. He likes her. He keeps giving her all of these things. He keeps promoting her, promoting her, promoting her. Is it because he truly right, has this almost fantasy of how amazing she is as a career woman? Or is it that love piece? Is it infatuation? Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But then he's the one who outs her. So he also loves her, but he's hurting her. And that makes me want to know more about Corey's mom. We learned just a little bit how he was taking care of her and he's kind of taking care of Bradley in terms of giving her the job, giving her a place to stay, rising through the ranks, giving her even Laura, like sending Laura into her life. Can you please help her? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But with her in a really weird way? Permission. I think he made it in his head, okay, for him to do that when he outed them. Because Bradley he made Bradley say, right, he set her up to be like. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: You have to do whatever it takes to protect. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And, like, I think I don't know, maybe Bradley would at the end of the day, if it was super black and white or she knew the outcome later on, that she'd be like, maybe she would have given permission for that. I don't know. But in his head, I think he got permission from her. And that absolves him of the guilt. Yeah, guilt. Maybe it comes out in season three, maybe. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Because I don't think he ever told her that it was him. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I thought he was going to at the end, but then he said, I love you. And then I was like, can he not sit with the guilt of telling her this? So he says he loves her instead, right? He's fascinating. I really hope we see a lot more of his development. I really hope we see Bradley in therapy in season like, I really, really hope we do. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think that would be a great line of whatever, to see Alex and. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Bradley in therapy together, almost like couple therapy or family therapy. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And maybe she did she would go to therapy twice. Right. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And she's good. That's right. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She talks some of the external problems, like the network or the cancellation. Right. But it's not about her. It's not deeply rooted in her Psych for interest. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And then she'd be good. She'd be like, I'm good. Or it would be like we saw in succession with the family therapy, right. Where you can't actually go anywhere substantial or honest. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So rewatching those episodes with Alex and Mitch and watching Mitch's death by suicide was really emotional for me. But what about for you? What did you think of all that? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's interesting. Bringing then in paola paula. Paula because I feel like I was just feeling many different feelings towards Mitch. At the one hand, I obviously don't like his character. I think he's like, a crappy person. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Really hard to see Steve Carell like this. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes. Right. But 100% such a good job. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And he's also such a good choice because I think it automatically makes you, like, ambivalent. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yep. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And he is right from the office like this. Like everyone loves my favorite boss. But then, obviously, this is also another character. But it's like, oh, it's a perfect character based on his other fictional characters. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: 100%. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Because he's just, like, beloved. He's funny, rodeo virgin. There hasn't been bad press about Steve Carell, as far as I know. So him being in the role, it just automatically, I think, plants that seed of ambivalence in our minds. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes. So when he was in Italy and that woman kind of came up to him right. And was, like, saying those things to him, and then we know her friend is filming it. Yeah. Paula come in and kind of interject. I didn't know how to so Mitch was like, right. He's excommunicated. He's living in Italy. He's by himself again. I think at that moment, he doesn't still have self awareness. I think he has more than his mentor. I think there's lines that Mitch won't cross that mentor did, but he still, I think, is lacking self awareness or really kind of understanding. He's still trying to, I think, come back or liked again. But I was again torn with that woman kind of saying those things to me. He's like, he's here minding his business. He's a hat on. Like, he's not right. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Exactly. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Clear the restaurant for me. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I thought it also brought up this idea of cancel culture and that exploration in a really smart way, how, like, yeah, he's done something many things that are awful and egregious. But, yeah, he's alone. He's not doing anything egregious right then. And we're just going to provoke him in hopes of filming it, that it'll go viral for that person's. Personal gain. That was. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I i the one thing that I liked Paola said to them was kind of just the pointing out of, like, you're doing this to post it. And I was, yeah, like, this isn't you kind of coming up and having a conversation and being like, I just feel like I need to say you whatever. Like a small thing, which, again, still is unprovoked, but whatever. I think just like, people do that, right? People do that. She would have gone viral and had her moment and that feels just a little icky. So anyway, moving through that, I think, just because I always am. So I don't think it's naive, but, like, go lucky, optimistic, never ending. But I feel like Mitch, in his way, on his path, which is not mine or other people's, was kind of exploring what he did. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: He was I thought so, too, way more than exactly. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, I think he, with time was changing, maybe with more support. I think that documentary that he did with Paolo was powerful or learning of that survivor in Italy that she was talking about or trying to film or make the documentary about. I think he was learning. And so I'm wondering if because he was it was like all of a sudden there was this guilt or like he couldn't handle the fact that he was this person who did these terrible things because he wasn't suicidal before. It was on his journey almost to changing that he took his life. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It was so sad. Like that scene where he swerves and then you see his hand let go. I was like, oh, it really gets him. And he shuts his eyes like he's at peace. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, so sad, portia I mean, he's a children. I don't know. I feel like he had the capacity for change and you have to want it, and he didn't want it before. I don't think he wanted to be. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Alone, away from everyone. COVID, like, thinking about your life, I do think I was seeing more and more capacity for reflection and introspection and ability to change, and I wasn't seeing that from Alex. To me, it was a fascinating juxtaposition of her coming out to Italy, won her letter from him, really railing on him, saying anything she could to get what she wanted. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then them being good and then them not being good. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It was like this whiplash and then them dancing and having these really tender, loving moments and then parting ways, it seemed like, on good terms. And then that happens. But then in between, I guess, then he is intimate with Paola, who he's. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Very upset by the allegations about it being like, preying on black women. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know. It was sad. It was definitely sad and unexpected for me. I did not see that coming. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And one thing we've talked about in some previous episodes is that humans are complicated and flawed and complex and you can be a perpetrator and a victim. Like, we talk about this a lot with children who grow up in really abusive households and then, unfortunately, become abusive as adults, but I feel like we see that with Mitch here. And again, I'm not trying to be a Mitch Apologist or anything, but he did awful bad things, and now he's being treated so and, yes, he should be held accountable and be fired and maybe arrested or charged with things like all of that. And I think this show, we see what could happen to a human soul going through that and then being just, like, piled on, piled on, piled on top of it, as he does seem to be trying to figure it out or figure out how do you move forward? Right. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it's also, like, the power of cancel culture, which is what I heard you kind of saying, but not saying those specific words just now. Because I think when some things are very clear, like taking absolutely social media or any kind of presence out, it's like, okay, you do something bad, maybe you do get convicted. Like, you actually are part of the criminal justice system, and you go to jail. It's like you are then treated poorly and in this terrible system. But it's clear then it's like the world, everyone hates you. They are death threats, making things about your kids. It's so interesting to hear people talk about cancel culture or being canceled because everybody says it's, like, the worst thing, because it's so unique. I don't know. It feels nuanced. I know it's not super new at this point, but it's just this weird thing. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I think, too, with social media, I feel like that has to add to it. It's not just like you're being canceled at your place of work, in your immediate family, or even in America. He was canceled internationally, and again, in some ways, he deserves it. 100 million%. And then all the piling on at the same time. You just think about that is a human at the end of the day, too? And this is really tricky. I feel like this is really hard for everyone, humans, me to wrap my head around. The show just does such a good job portraying really difficult topics. And as we wrap up, I do want to make sure we talk about Bradley and Hal. What did you think of this? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought it was was because I was so moved and I was so angry at him when he know, I'll make it really simple. He's describing how their mom has impacted him right. By being threatening, manipulative, all of these things. And he does it exactly to Bradley, like, within the same sentence. And it's just like I was speechless at how well they got it. Right. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I know. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then Bradley, the guilt tripping, the threatening, the putting it it's on you. My substance use is on you. Showing up and hurt me. Job horrible. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: All of it. You can just see how much she is struggling with wanting to help and support him. Especially now that she has so much money, like more money than they ever had and she can't help him. But then being totally like, what are you doing? Like, why are you showing up here? Are you using? She looks through his bag and then he notices. But then it's like, of course she right. And it's just they perfectly demonstrated that dance. And that scene when she's dropping him off at rehab and trying to set those boundaries like Laura was encouraging her to, was heartbreaking. But I felt like if I was her therapist, I would say you have to set boundaries. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I would have been very proud of her for how she was when she dropped him off. I can't do this for you. This is your decision. Go in or go out. I can't make you sober. And then sucked back in again later on. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But Manipulatively leaves all the money and disappears again. It's like just like Alex disappearing with her back and not answering anyone's calls. It is such a primitive way of getting someone's attention, right? By scaring them, being like, oh, you don't want anything to do with me? Well then look what's going to happen. And it totally worked. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And it's so hard to not be impacted by that. People do it 1000 times over and over again. Sometimes they never stop and sometimes they do, but it just breaks you as a person and having to do that over and over and over again. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: You really need help navigating that. And that's where support groups, even like Alanon, your own individual therapy can help with that. I don't think there was any way for Bradley to stick with her boundaries in that situation. I thought her reaction was really accurate and human and you just saw all the desperation and remorse and guilt and everything that she was feeling. And I feel like, unfortunately, people who love someone affected by substance use will totally relate to that. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And the people who know in a relationship like Laura with Bradley, because I think that can oftentimes alienate the person like Bradley even more. Because as things are happening, as Hal is pushing Bradley and kind of like making her unwell, there's the people around Bradley like Laura, who then even more so will start to be know, you really can't do this anymore. You really need to set a boundary. And sometimes that know, break a relationship, right? And so then it's like, then you're more know, you're without more it's so it seems know, okay, it's just between Bradley and it just the spider web goes out so far with how substance abuse impacts families. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That's what we always say, right? It's a disease of the family. It affects everyone. Which I guess you could say about most mental health conditions. But we really see it with substance use. And it was just what a portrayal. And I mean, so expertly done and so heart wrenching. I was so glad she did finally find him, but I'm really worried they're both going to get COVID now. Or I was like, Bradley, what if you have COVID and you're running in exposing all these other people? And it's just like the chaos, right? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And it's still so at the beginning. So they hadn't shut down, no visitors yet. It's within all the chaos of her own life. And then it's like you're seeing which we love, the parallels of all the chaos that now the world is being pushed into. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So where do you hope season three goes? Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I'm sure there'll be at least a couple episodes, right, with them working from home. And I'm curious how that is. But then I'm wondering where season three ends. I know I'm getting way ahead of myself, but because will Cobra be, quote unquote, over? Are they back into the office? Does anyone die? Are Corey and who does Bradley end up with? Is anyone fired? Is Alex ever able to gain anything? Does she keep doing her? Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: No, I don't have any hope for her. I'm sorry. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it's interesting because the show, or maybe not the writers, but the producers or the directors in an interview had talked about how they really wanted to give Alex her redemption at the end of season two. And I feel like maybe a person without mental health background would think she did. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Were you watching, like, the stay tuned for the show? I did watch that for a couple of episodes, including the last one, and I think they touched on, like they were trying to say, like, Alex is human. And I'm like, yeah, and really far on the narcissistic spectrum, like, really lacking empathy and ability to appreciate how our actions affect others. So I just don't think that's going to magically develop. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And if it does, I don't know. I think the writers, like we've talked about a million times, are wonderful and have they must have mental health experts they have to, helping them develop these characters. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: If you want some more, you can find us at Analyze Scripts podcast. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Exactly. So please reach out to us anywhere. You can find us on Instagram or TikTok at Analyze Groups podcast or check out our website. You can also email us if you'd like to get in touch with us on a more of a professional level. But stay tuned for more of our episodes and check out the ones that we have back in the feed. There's a lot. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: There's a lot. All right, thanks for listening and we'll see you again next Monday. Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Bye bye. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts, all rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine. Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

In this episode- recorded back in late November 2023, as I was recovering from COVID- I was delighted to be joined by Is Paul Dano OK?'s Daryl Bär to discuss 'Spider-Man: Homecoming' as part of out ongoing MCU coverage. And aside from singing the praises of this film (we're both big fans), we talk all things Spidey from our early encounters with the character, the comics, the moovies and the multitude of bizarre spin-off films Sony are apparently making (Kraven- we're looking at you and asking 'why?').  And if you want to hear more Spider-Man discussion, you can hear Paul and I talk about 'Spider-Man: Far From Home' right now by going to https://www.patreon.com/ERRP 

Ashley Pope is an incredible woman by any standard. She grew up mostly in the Ventura area of Southern California. She went to school graduating like any high school senior. She tried college and found that it wasn't for her. She had been working at a department store while in high school and for a bit after that including when she decided college was not her forte.   She spent a few years working in sales for an ophthalmological company before opening her own spice and tea shop in Ventura at the age of 23. During this time her son was born. At the age of two, he was diagnosed as being autistic. Ashley learned how to be a fierce advocate for him and joined forces with Autism Society Ventura where she now serves as president.   Ashley sold her business and took a position with the Ventura Chamber of Commerce to have the time to devote to her son's needs.   Life wasn't done throwing curves at Ashley. In 2020 she was feeling some health issues of her own. She thought they were stress-related. After a STAT MRI's ended in a diagnosis of Multiple Sclerosis she now had not only to advocate for her son but for herself as well.   You will see from listening to Ashley that she is as unstoppable as it gets. She is by any standard the kind of person I am honored to know and I do hope we will hear more from her in the future.     About the Guest:   Ashley Pope is 33 years old and lives in beautiful Ventura, California with her husband Carlos and their 10-year-old son, Gavin. She is employed by the Ventura Chamber of Commerce as a Membership Development Manager. She feels fortunate to get to work with the business community, including small businesses and non-profit organizations. Ashley is an entrepreneur, having owed a spice and tea store Downtown Ventura for 6 years before selling it, all before the age of 30. During that time, she was acknowledged for being a young business owner, most notably in the Wells Fargo Works national competition and by the National Association of Women Business Owners when she was awarded Young Entrepreneur of the Year in 2015.   Ashley is also a passionate volunteer. She has worked countless hours as a volunteer for Autism Society Ventura County- a role that doubles as a hobby! She is currently the President of the organization and has served on the board for 6 years. The projects that bring her the most joy are centered around workforce development, advocacy, changing the local narrative around Autism one family at a time, and obtaining large grants to put on new meaningful projects and programs in Ventura County. Ashley is also a 7 year Rotarian with Rotary Club of Ventura East.   In 2015, when her son was 2 years old, he was diagnosed with Autism. This diagnosis rocked her world and sent her family on a quest for services and to understand what this meant for her son. Acceptance wasn't immediate, but it was fast. Ashley became a passionate advocate and began to help other families whenever she could. This quest for more led her to Autism Society Ventura County, where she was able to combine her energy with other advocates for greater impact. She credits the organization with empowering her with the knowledge and experience to be the best mom she can be. By the end of 2016, Ashley was known in her community as a disability advocate.   In 2020, Ashley came into another challenge. She had been experiencing some strange medical symptoms that she wrote off as stress induced. She was shocked when STAT MRI's ended in a diagnosis of Multiple Sclerosis. Ashley didn't know much about the condition, only that it was debilitating. She quickly learned that unlike Autism, there wasn't much fun or interesting about progressive multiple sclerosis. She is currently in the process of coming to acceptance of her own limitations and grappling with her sense of self as her ability to do a lot changes.   Through her experience with her son, Ashley has learned that the ability to communicate is a gift and is motivated to share her story, even when she feels vulnerable.   Ashley loves to read, spend time with her family, and loves her 2 cats Scarlett and Pebbles and her dog Donut.   Ways to connect with Ashley:   Instagram: VenturawithAshley Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ashley.pope.10/     About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello once again. And yep, you are absolutely right. This is unstoppable mindset. We're inclusion, diversity in the unexpected meet. And it's always fun when we get to have a lot of all of that kind of stuff on here. I'm your host, Mike hingson. We're really glad you're here with us today. And today we have a guest Ashley Pope, then Ashley would be a person I would describe as an unstoppable mom advocate and she'll tell you all about why that's the case. But that's a good description to start with. Anyway, we've been working on getting this all set up for a while and we finally got it done. And here we are. And Ashley, thank you for coming on. And welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Ashley Pope ** 02:03 Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here with you today.   Michael Hingson ** 02:06 And I am not really if you want to get technical everyone totally pleased with Ashley because she lives in Ventura, California, and I wish I were there. But no Victorville is really okay. Ventura is a nice seaside town, and there's a lot of value in being there. And it's a wonderful place and not too far from where I live. So I could get a ride there within a couple of hours or so. So not complaining too much. Right, Ashley?   Ashley Pope ** 02:33 That's right, Ventura Great.   Michael Hingson ** 02:35 Well, let's start by maybe learning a little bit about kind of the earlier Ashley, you growing up and all that kind of stuff. And we'll, we'll take it from there.   Ashley Pope ** 02:44 Yeah. So I grew up right here in Ventura, California, which is about halfway between Santa Barbara and Los Angeles and super sunny, beautiful place to live. And it's a wonderful place to grow up. And I have a brother and a sister and you know, my parents, we all just grew up here and and I think I think the universe all the time for allowing you to grow up and such a gorgeous place with wonderful people. I really don't think there's anywhere better in the world. And then, shortly after high school, I just jumped right into actually working full time before high school even ended. And I just always have had a really strong work ethic and a really big passion for whatever work I was doing. I never expected that I would find myself in disability advocacy, that's for sure. This is where I landed and I'm grateful to be here as well.   Michael Hingson ** 03:43 So you didn't go to college?   Ashley Pope ** 03:45 No, I did for a little bit. I went to MIT for college. Okay, great. Yeah. And I dropped out. I have I have a short attention span so I knew pretty quickly that college was not my thing. It was really hard for me to sit down and sit still I've always learned better by using my hands and my mind and getting out there and I chose the work route which you know, pros and cons but no regrets at all.   Michael Hingson ** 04:14 Well, and that's really the issue isn't that you are you're happy with what you're doing? There are no regrets. You can always do shoulda, coulda, woulda, and what good does it get us anyway?   Ashley Pope ** 04:24 Absolutely. I actually bought a business at the age of 23. A retail store in beautiful downtown Ventura. And I consider that to be my college experience. I had it for six years. And there's there's no business experience like that experience, that's for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 04:43 And what happened to the business? I sold it. See there you go. So you beat the odds first of all, because they say that typically most startups don't last five years. Not only is it yours last but then you sold it. So you can't do better than that. Unless you wanted to stay in it and there are a lot of reason Since not to necessarily do that, as I'm sure we're gonna discover, but what were you doing? You said you were working even in high school?   Ashley Pope ** 05:08 Yeah, I worked at Macy's. So when I was in high school, my parents moved to Sacramento, my dad's job got transferred. And I kind of refused to start new in high school and opted instead to do homeschooling and ended up working full time at Macy's, while homeschooling for a year, and then I moved back to Ventura to graduate, and kept the job. And shortly after graduating high school, I went on to work at LensCrafters, which was a great management experience and really taught me a lot. I think my days at LensCrafters really helped to prepare me for advocacy in a lot of ways it you know, just working with people who have vision impairments, or have medical issues and need the glasses to see it was really enlightening for me honestly, that to think somebody could lose a pair of glasses or break a pair of glasses and then be unable to see the world and maybe not have the accommodations that they needed to pick glasses right away. Rather, it was financial or transportation restraints, just to have somebody kind of be left without resources for maybe a week before they could get in for an appointment. It was really it was enlightening. For sure. It's pretty cool to to witness that.   Michael Hingson ** 06:39 It's kind of an off the topic question. But I'm just curious, it sort of pops into my head. How do we get people to recognize that eyesight is not the only game in town, and even if you lose your glasses, it's not the end of the world.   Ashley Pope ** 06:52 I mean, I think it is the end of the world in first moments, right? In the first moments, in the first moments, you see, oh my gosh, I can't work, I can't drive. I can't be an effective parent. I can't help my kid with their homework. It's like you have to learn how to deal with what life gives you. But if you only have a week to figure it   Michael Hingson ** 07:15 out, oh, yeah, that's not a lot of time.   Ashley Pope ** 07:19 But you're absolutely right. I mean, that's one thing I did not learn from LensCrafters. But maybe I learned later down the road, is that these things are not life or death. Right? It's, it's not. It's not the end of the world. You're absolutely right. But it's the end of that person's world when they have a week worth of plans that they can no longer make. It feels like the end of their world. And perhaps that's an issue with America and with the world as it is more than it is the way that those individuals were thinking,   Michael Hingson ** 07:54 Yeah, we teach. We teach people so much that I say it's the only game in town and I and I understand why for most people, it really is because that's what they know. The other part about it, and we talked about it here every so often is that somehow we've got to get away from using the term vision impairment, because for visual impairment, because we're not impaired. And people who don't hear well would shoot you if you said they were hearing impaired because they recognize it impaired means you're really comparing it with something, rather than saying, hard of hearing. And likewise, with people who are blind or low vision, that's a much better way to put it than blind or visually impaired visually, we're not different and impaired as also an inappropriate thing. But we're still a long way from getting people to understand that language. And that doesn't help people thinking that it's the end of the world. But I appreciate it. And and the reality is it's an education process. And hopefully over time, it will be something where we'll have better revolution.   Ashley Pope ** 08:58 Thank you, Michael, it. It is an educational process. And there's so many, we've we're always changing and always evolving. And that's something I didn't know I do remember prometrics at one point telling me that we should never say blind, right? And it seems like we've gone backwards or gone forwards but like it's like what used to be acceptable for a while was no longer acceptable, such as like person first language. That's another thing with autism. Like you don't say autistic, you say a person with autism. And then now we're going back to know the person that is who they are. That's part of their culture that they want to claim and part of their identity. So now we got to stick. And we always want to be respectful of the language that one wants to use in the language that's culturally appropriate and no, that's super valid. And thank you so much for for sharing.   Michael Hingson ** 09:55 Well, in the case of blind for example, and I think there are reasons why optometrists should ophthalmologists think that I'll get to that in a second. But the real issue is that blind and low vision is and or are characteristics. And the issue isn't politically correct or not the issue is accurate and how it really classifies people. And that's why the whole idea of impaired is a problem. From my perspective, the optometrist, you talked about his blind impaired, why is that any different than being blind, you know, a, maybe a better way to put it is that guy's light dependent, and he'd be in a world of hurt if the power suddenly went out in his office, and he didn't have a window to allow sunlight in. But he didn't have a smartphone right close by to be able to turn it on for a flashlight. And most people in the world are like dependent. And that's all they know, that I don't expect everyone to necessarily get to the point up front where they're experts and won't panic. But they sure also ought not to assume that just because some people aren't like them, that we're not just as capable. And of course, that gets back to the whole issue of disability does not mean lack of ability, which is something you understand very well. Absolutely. So you sold your business. Cool. That was great. What was your business?   Ashley Pope ** 11:26 It was a spice and tea store, downtown Ventura, and it's very much still there and the new owners are not new anymore. It's been four years. They are absolutely amazing. The store is called spice topia. And it's right on the 500 block of Main Street, downtown Ventura, and I love the tan family. If you drop in, you should definitely spend a lot of money and and visit the family.   Michael Hingson ** 11:52 Well, only we'll go with you. We'll have to get to Venter and do that. I've been a great fan of some Well, vibrant British teas, but I like green tea and other other teas as well. I've never been the coffee drinker and I don't know why. But I've always been since I started drinking hot drinks more of a tea drinker. Of course, I can always be spoiled with hot chocolate, but that's another story.   Ashley Pope ** 12:15 Same same. I love chocolate bars. I'm not so much of a coffee drinker anymore, either.   Michael Hingson ** 12:21 Nothing wrong with hot chocolate.   Ashley Pope ** 12:24 Especially with whipped cream. Yep. Absolutely. Do it.   Michael Hingson ** 12:28 Make it with milk? Yep. We, my wife and I in the winter would get Starbucks cocoa from Costco. And we would make it with milk never water. And so always tastes great. Yeah, spoiled me. I might just have to have some anyway today just because. Well, that comes later. But meanwhile, so what did you do after you sold the business?   Ashley Pope ** 12:59 So this is another point when I had a business, I always had another job kind of outside of the business. Because as you said, small business is hard. And retail is hard. So that was always kind of a side project for me, that I had for a long time. When I went into business, my son was just about a year old. And within another two years he was diagnosed with autism. And so I tried to kind of let go of the job that I had and went to go work my retail store and then ended up with a different kind of job sticking with the optometry ophthalmology field. I would do outside sales for LASIK and cataract surgeons. And yeah, stick with the field stick with what I knew. And then the Chamber of Commerce here in Ventura was hirings. Oh, I've actually worked for the chamber for about seven years. So there was some overlap between selling my business and the time that I worked for the chamber. The time came in 2019, I really was just beginning to feel the squeeze of having a child with special needs, doing my volunteer work that I love to do, and of course, having a job and a business. So something had to go. And I really took a good hard look and thought, what do I want to do? Do I want to quit my job? Do I want to stay in the business? And I ended up deciding to go ahead and sell the business. And that was a really great decision for me. A very wise decision in terms of especially not knowing what was coming next, which I know we're gonna get to about what less than a year after selling I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. And so that was really telling why I was having some of the issues that I was having, focusing, holding conversations with fatigue EEG, all of these symptoms that I had been having just in case I was overstressed overworked, which I was, but not really answered some of those questions, and I was really grateful that I made the decision that left me with health insurance versus the one that maybe wouldn't have. So.   Michael Hingson ** 15:16 So the job that you had at that time was the Optima logical one or the optical one or what? No, with the chamber with the chamber. Okay, great. Yeah. So you got health insurance. So you had two different sets of challenges, because clearly MS is not anywhere near the same kinds of issues as as autism. And now suddenly, you had to deal with both. Is there a husband in the picture?   Ashley Pope ** 15:39 There is? Yeah, my husband, my son's dad, he is a stay at home dad, actually, to this day, really supportive also than I assume? Yeah, he's really supportive, and definitely the primary caregiver for my son being that I was working. So that's it. It's been great just being able to lean on him.   Michael Hingson ** 16:03 And, and he does that, which is so cool. Because he cares enough to do that. And so he's able to deal with your son and, and you when necessary. Oh, absolutely. I see you a lot on a lot of different ways. But with the MS and all that, does your son go to school?   Ashley Pope ** 16:23 He does. So he goes to a special education program that's been a typical school, he does have a inclusion where he sometimes goes into the general education classrooms. And he goes to public school.   Michael Hingson ** 16:38 How's he doing?   Ashley Pope ** 16:39 He's doing great. My son is so awesome. He's really positive. He's really smart. He's really happy. He has a hard time with language, both understanding complex instructions or complex ideas even. And then also verbalizing, complex feelings, emotions, he talks a little bit but mostly about, like his needs and his wants. But I really learned that there's a lot of different ways to communicate. And he's, he's a happy kid. So we're really grateful for that. Does he read? He is super good with reading? He does. He doesn't read so much. Books. And the comprehension is still a challenge. But he definitely reads words and is really good with spelling. That's he has been fascinated with the alphabet, since he was like, nine months old. He's been super drawn to numbers and letters and colors and shapes. And that's actually, I think, a pretty common thing with autism.   Michael Hingson ** 17:50 Well, that's cool. Does, does he? Have you ever tried to explore the concept of listening to audiobooks? Or is his listening comprehension just not there yet.   Ashley Pope ** 18:02 He's never really shown interest. He's just barely starting to show interest in cartoons, which is funny, because, you know, so many parents are like, Oh, too much screen time for the kids, like, you know, you don't want him glued to the TV all day. And for us, we're like, thrilled that he wants to watch cartoons and you can kind of like, maintain a focus on it. I know so many people who learn English through watching cartoons, and maybe you know, grew up on learning Spanish only. And were in households that didn't speak English at all. And were able to pick up English through cartoons. So I'm a big believer that this can be a positive thing for him. And it gives me hope, also, that he's interested in the stories being told and in the characters. So I'm interested to see where that will land.   Michael Hingson ** 18:53 Well, so of course, the issue is you're getting something out of it. And clearly, you can see that so that's a really positive thing. Needless to say. Absolutely. Yeah. So he, he watched his cartoons to see what kind of games does he play?   Ashley Pope ** 19:10 Plays, you know, it's he, he likes to do things his own way. So you can usually find him like jumping on the trampoline, he likes to go for walks, he runs around on the beach, and terms of games. He's just not into it. And we try to pull him into like, you know, our space and get him to engage in these different ways. He loves doing LEGO sets, which is really fun. The booklets like, really, really well, he does better than I do. I'll be like trying to help him and put something on backwards and he's like, no, no, like, he'll like take it from me and fix it. So it kind of comes back to that whole, you know, shapes, numbers, colors, letters thing he's really drawn to what's concrete. Which is interesting because for me, that's so not who I am as a person. So it's been fun to learn alongside him and watch the way that he learns. Just because it's so interesting and different from the way that I learned.   Michael Hingson ** 20:18 Well, clearly, there is a lot of awareness there. And that's probably the most important thing. So you may not know just what's going on in that mind. But there's something that that is going on. And he's aware of his surroundings. And I wish more people were aware of their surroundings in so many ways.   Ashley Pope ** 20:38 Yeah, he'll pick out like, the tiniest little thing and hyper focus on like, one, you know, little tiny toy or one little thing in the carpet, or whatever it might be. In so many ways, it's like he'll he'll fully get immersed in one little part of his day. And it's a really beautiful thing to watch that at attention. And that focus is really rare.   Michael Hingson ** 21:11 You've talked about autism or autistic awareness, as opposed to acceptance. Tell us about that.   Ashley Pope ** 21:17 Yeah, so autism acceptance is a term that's been used for decades, or autism awareness, I'm sorry. So autism awareness is basically like, what is autism? What are the first signs that you should reach out for help if you see these, you know, first things not talking, not smiling, not engaging, no eye contact, they have like this big long list of things for parents. And to know those things is to be aware. So society pushed that for a really long time, autism awareness, autism awareness. And just in the last maybe five years, Autism Society of America, as well as Autism Society of Ventura County, and several other organizations have said, Okay, we've kind of met awareness, people know, what is autism, people know someone with autism. People have heard the word autism. So what does it mean? What's the next step? And autism acceptance is really not only being aware of what autism is, but being accepting of who the unique individuals are, who have autism, and also taking a good look at how does our world work? And how do we make sure that it works for these populations? So for instance, in like workforce training, and education and inclusion, pretty much from birth to end of life? How do we build a world that is more inclusive? And that has been the focus now on acceptance more than awareness?   Michael Hingson ** 23:02 Yeah, it makes sense. And we'll know when there's true acceptance when people recognize that just because someone may be happens to be autistic, that doesn't make them less of a person, it means they're going to do things in a significantly different way. But doesn't mean they're less.   Ashley Pope ** 23:23 Yes, absolutely. That's the goal. We are noticing the differences and honoring the differences, and accommodating the differences when necessary. But that we're recognizing that they are just as much human and have just as much right to find their happiness and passions in the world. We're not just creating cookie cutter programs for kids that are so not cookie cutter. And we're definitely not pushing adults into cookie cutter dogs, or cookie cutter programs. And we honor the diversity of everyone else. We hope that we can honor that diversity across the autism spectrum as well.   Michael Hingson ** 24:06 Do we really know what causes autism?   Ashley Pope ** 24:09 We don't. We don't know what the causes are they they, you know, some genetic factor for sure. environmental factor for sure. But they still haven't identified what exactly causes autism. And one thing that I love most. And what really drew me to Autism Society, is that we really don't talk or work on causes or cures at all. We only focus on providing programs and making the world a better place. As a mom. I remember getting that diagnosis and seeing so many organizations that are talking about you know, finding a cure or figuring out what the cause is so that we can eliminate it and just being like, well, that doesn't really help me. Now, it doesn't help my son now like we don't we're not trying to You know, change, that he has autism, it's part of who he is, in a sense, even very early on, I knew like, I don't want to take his wonder or his joy away from him, like, I'm not trying to make him not jump in spin. That's clearly what's making him happy. But I also just want to help him whatever that looks like. And so I was really attracted to an organization that uses their donations, to help those who are already living versus looking at 20 years ahead, to see what they can figure out about causes or cures. And there's a lot of controversy there as well around even finding a cure for autism, because more and more we're learning that it's, that is the genetic makeup, it's a different wiring of the brain, it's a different way of thinking, and it's not wrong, it's not something to be fixed, it's something to be accommodated. So there's a lot of that feeling out there as well that focusing on a cure or a cause is perhaps not the right focus for the time.   Michael Hingson ** 26:10 Well, or using the words we use a little while ago, or you use a little while ago accepted. There's nothing wrong with acceptance.   Ashley Pope ** 26:18 Yeah. It's trying to convince someone that you are accepting, when in the next breath, you are looking to fix what you feel is broken. So   Michael Hingson ** 26:30 that's the issue what you feel is broken. Yeah. Which is, which is all together a different issue. What do you want parents and other people to know about having a child with autism, you must have life lessons, that would probably be valuable for people to hear about.   Ashley Pope ** 26:50 Yeah, for first getting a diagnosis, what I would tell parents is, it's definitely not the end of the world, that there are a lot of positives that can come from, even from the diagnosis, this child is still the same child, and they still have just as much to offer the world and your family as they did, before they got that diagnosis, or the moment they were born, or the moment you dreamed them up. There is still just as much value there. And I would also say that, you know, cry if you need to cry, but then wake up the next day and get to work. Because there's a lot to do, there's a lot of services to find, there's a lot to learn. And the longer you take to process, whatever feelings you need to process, whatever your your grief process looks like, quicker you can get through it. And the faster you can get to work, the better off your child will be. And the more likely they are to be able to be independent to some capacity in this world. So that's a really important message. And then for the rest of the world, I would just say that individuals with autism do deserve the same access and the same experiences. It's shocking, what we sometimes hear, right? In terms of like, well, that program exists, like isn't that enough? Or these services in the community are available? We have one inclusive Park, is that not enough? Why do you need them all to be inclusive? It's like, No, it's not enough, we deserve the same access. And so I will continue to fight those fights, not necessarily for you to park just one idea or one example. But in every area everywhere should be accessible. And the idea that we put any type of limitations on a child or on a person due to a diagnosis or disability is just not okay. So that's it gets.   Michael Hingson ** 29:03 It gets back to what we talked about earlier, blindness being the end of the world or not, and it doesn't matter whether it's being blind or have been being autistic or whatever. It is something that we've got to get to the point of saying get over it. Where's the real problem? The real problem is us who think there's a problem rather than there necessarily really being a problem.   Ashley Pope ** 29:29 The way I put it is the problem is with the world. There's nothing wrong with my son. The problem is with what the world has available for or does not have available for the way that the world perceives, or the way the world thinks about my son. That's the problem. It's not him. And so I think that's a really important piece for people to recognize is that it's the world that falls short never, never ever child and Never the person with a disability.   Michael Hingson ** 30:04 Yeah, and the reality is that we can get over it. And we can move forward. So well, let's let's talk about Gavin a little bit more. So he's 10. What do you expect will be Gavin's future? At some point, will he go into the workforce and have a job? You know, given his level of autism was I'm not going to call it a disability, because it's no more a disability than being able to see as a disability, but, but he is autistic. What, what will that mean in terms of him being able to ever work or be on his own and so on?   Ashley Pope ** 30:47 Here, as the world would say, and this is another term, not, we don't really use, but he does have a lot of needs. And so sometimes in the autism community, we'll hear, Well, is he low functioning, or is he high functioning, or somewhere in the middle, and that is another category of words that we want to kind of let go of using because just because somebody is high functioning doesn't mean that they don't really struggle with things related to their autism. And just because somebody is low functioning, doesn't mean they don't have anything to offer the world. And that the way that we perceive low functioning and high functioning are not, they mean, really very little to like, the actual experience that that person is having. So we've tried to get away from using that language. And my son does have a lot of needs, and he will hopefully be able to work if that's what he is driven to do. He is really interested in things that I think would be good qualities to have as an employee. He's super happy. He's really good at like keeping things organized and clean, you'd make a great merchandiser, for instance, however, he is easily distracted, and he's not really so into direction at this point in his life. He's also 10. So you never know. So to answer that question, I don't really know, I guess it could be anywhere between having a day program or volunteer opportunities up to being like, a legal engineer, I don't know, could be anywhere. So we're not so sure. Um, fortunately, he has a lot of family support. And we've gotten a lot of the supports and systems in place for him, so that he will be okay financially, and with people around him that care for him, he will never be fully independent, which is hard to say or think about. But that's just the reality of it. And a lot of you know, a lot of people in this world won't. So how are we as society, protecting the interests and the rights and the safety of those amongst us who will never be fully independent, or independent, even partially independent, they'll always need someone   Michael Hingson ** 33:27 kind of almost really submit that most all of us really need someone, and that none of us are totally independent. Probably some people would disagree. But the reality is that we all are interdependent on each other in so many ways, and I don't see a problem with that.   Ashley Pope ** 33:45 Yeah. I hear you. I think, obviously, there's levels and you're right. Everybody's independent, in some sense, but But yeah, it's dependents will be a little bit more   Michael Hingson ** 34:01 payments will be a little bit more than, than a lot of people and so on. You know, but he may end up being a great card shark in Las Vegas. We'll see.   Ashley Pope ** 34:10 That's right. You never know, either. Maybe   Michael Hingson ** 34:12 they'll be supporting you. Yeah,   Ashley Pope ** 34:14 it's very true.   Michael Hingson ** 34:16 Does he have any siblings?   Ashley Pope ** 34:19 He does not. So. But no siblings. He's,   Michael Hingson ** 34:23 he's, he's a lot to concentrate on. Right? Yeah. He and her husband for you?   Ashley Pope ** 34:28 Yes. That's enough for me. Yeah, that's   Michael Hingson ** 34:32 a lot of work all the way around. Or your husband has you and he and Gavin to concentrate on and that's a lot for him too. So that is my wife. My wife and I chose not to have kids. We chose to spoil nieces and nephews. So at the end of the day, we could ship them off to home.   Ashley Pope ** 34:49 Nice,   Michael Hingson ** 34:50 worked out well. Yes, it did. Well, we valued each other we valued our togetherness. She was in a wheelchair. And so as I always told people she read, I pushed worked out really well. And so we work together, we relied on each other. And that's, that's as good as it could possibly be as well. So I appreciate though the the fact that we all do happen to be interdependent in one way or another. Absolutely, which is pretty cool.   Ashley Pope ** 35:23 It is really cool.   Michael Hingson ** 35:25 Well, so for you. What, when? When are you when you discover a parent who has encountered autism? And we've talked some about that, but do you have any other advice or any other kinds of words of wisdom that you want to pass on for parents to think about,   Ashley Pope ** 35:48 um, I sometimes come across parents who won't want to tell their child that they have autism. And I think that that's cruel. For lack of a better word, we'll hear that these kids are having a hard time socially, emotionally, maybe with learning. And parents will just be like, oh, you know, I don't, I don't want to give them the label. I don't want them to, you know, feel like they're living with this or under this. Yeah. And we oftentimes hear from adults with autism, that it answers so many questions to have the diagnosis. And so I think that being able to give them the gift of knowing as early as possible, and have them grow up around the word and around being proud of having a different mind, and aware that their mind is different. And there, they may have some struggles, like they may learn a little bit different, or they might have some social issues or difficulties or differences. But that the family loves them and that they are proud of who they are. And that autism is something to be proud of. Because in a lot of ways, it's also a superpower. And look at all the things that you're great at. That is a better approach, and just not addressing it at all, can be really hurtful   Michael Hingson ** 37:21 to that whole thing of living with autism or whatever, it's the same thing about what we were talking about with blindness or any other kind of so called disability. The reality is we've got to get beyond these words that really are only hurtful and not accurate anyway.   Ashley Pope ** 37:39 Yeah, it's, it's a gift to be able to grow up knowing and to find your pride and sense of self, within the life that you have, you're not going to have another one, it's not going to change, you know that you're not going to one day wake up and not have autism. So just live with it. And you loving that about your child empowers them to love themselves, regardless of any difficulties that they may have.   Michael Hingson ** 38:09 And they're going to know that you love them. And if you don't, they're going to know that. It's it's something that so often we don't understand. Children and and other people in general, really observe instinctively as much as anything else. And they know when you're blowing smoke or when you're genuine, whoever you are, and whatever you do. And I, and it's, you know, I learned it a long time ago, I have been very much involved in sales. And I learned a long time ago in sales. They know when you're faking it, they know when you're telling the truth. And you can try to pull the wool over people's eyes. But the reality is, it doesn't work. People really can sense it. I was interviewing someone actually on a recent episode, who was talking about self confidence, and we talked about confidence and arrogance. And one of the points that he made was with arrogance, it's usually because there's an insecurity and you can bluster and, and do all sorts of things. But the reality is, if you're truly confident in yourself and what you're doing and so on, that shines through and people can tell the difference.   Ashley Pope ** 39:27 Very true.   Michael Hingson ** 39:29 And so love is extremely important. And I'm I'm really glad to hear that you can can really support that in the you guys are doing that and Gavin's gonna certainly appreciate it and give it back in return and that's is important as anything else.   Ashley Pope ** 39:46 Yes, he is so happy and and I think lucky. Just how much support he has. And we don't put him in situations where We don't feel like he is fully accepted and embraced and loved. Ever. So if there was a teacher that I felt was not fit, then we would find a new one. It's like those types of situations, because we can't. I want him to be happy and to live that fullest life. And in order to do that he needs to be around people who believe that he can and that he's worth that,   Michael Hingson ** 40:25 who believe in Him. Uh huh. Well, so I want to talk more about you in terms of your diagnosis and so on. But first, what do you do for the chamber,   Ashley Pope ** 40:39 I do membership development. So I meet with different businesses and organizations and people around the community and bring them into the chamber. I also do a lot of the events work, so help to organize events. It's really awesome to be able to connect with the business community on a really deep level. It's a really supportive community here in Ventura. We have a ton of nonprofits who do really great work, and the business community really comes out and supports them. So I'm really in a position to uncover unmet need, and also to find organizations and people who can help to meet that need. And it's one of the things I'm most grateful for when it comes to my job. Oh,   Michael Hingson ** 41:25 percentage wise, how many businesses are in the chamber? And when not only in winter? But typically speaking? How does that work? Do most businesses join their local chambers?   Ashley Pope ** 41:38 So our chamber has 700 businesses as members, we represent over 25,000 employees. So it's a really big network. Every chamber is different. They're all operated independently, they all have different initiatives, different boards of directors. So Chamber of Commerce in one city could be doing completely different things than a chamber of commerce. And another one. So yeah, I mean, Fincher is is fantastic. And chambers in general, do networking, business advocacy, it just kind of depends city to city. I love today, a lot of small businesses join. It's hard to give like a percentage or, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:22 yeah, I was just curious. I didn't know whether that was even an answerable question. Because unless you have some real way to track every single business, it's it's kind of hard to tell.   Ashley Pope ** 42:33 Yeah. And there's a lot of businesses that do. Like, if you looked at a business license list, you would see a lot of businesses that pull like a one day permit or do business in the city, but aren't actually like based in the city, and so no different than hard to measure for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 42:51 In our post COVID world or sort of post COVID world do you find there are a lot more home based businesses and there used to be   Ashley Pope ** 43:02 a lot of businesses have gone virtual. Although that is slowly but surely, people are getting back into the offices. So back to the physical location, we saw it with big tech first, a lot of big businesses called their people back. And now there's data coming out around productivity, not in the favor of the work from home people. So I think we'll continue to see that those commercial spaces will fill back up. But that will always be able to do some things hybrid and have zoom meetings. And definitely people are working from home when they're sick now, which is a nice change because people used to go to work sick. And now that's kind of unimaginable, you wouldn't go to work sick, that's the worst thing to do ever. So definitely some positive change there. They will be really interesting to see what happens in the next 510 years. If the work from home thing sticks at all.   Michael Hingson ** 44:04 I hope it sort of sticks I think what what you just said is true that there there's this whole work life balance but even in addition to that there's virtual verse is in person life balance and the fact is that there's there's value in letting people do some of their work at home. It's great to get away from the office and the inherent pressures that that provides and do some of your work at home. My job is pretty much all at home except for a few times and when I go speak places of course, and I love to go speak in person because I get to interact with audiences even in ways that I can't virtually but between that and then working with accessibly I actually get to go to accessory in Israel this year, which will be fun. And I go to a couple of conventions a year but the I'm used to working at home, and a lot of my sales life, I did remote offices. So sometimes I was at home and sometimes I was in the office. So I kind of got trained to be able to do it and be disciplined to work at home, which is not something that a lot of people are totally used to yet, but I hope that they get there and that they recognize that there's value in having a little bit of both.   Ashley Pope ** 45:24 I hope so too. I really hope that for our community and for America, especially we're known as workaholics and and not to take enough time, at home or enough time to self. On one hand, the ability to work from home, I think causes people to continue to work when they're done working at the office. But we just have to find the balance there. And we have to be able to maintain some of the positive that came out of COVID as negative as it was there was a silver lining there. Yeah. We kind of toggle back and forth on being able to maintain that as a society or not. And I know for sure in Ventura, but I think that's been kind of a worldwide struggle of do we want our employees to be able to work from home a day, a week or five days a week? Or do we want everybody back in the office? And when do we want things to go back to the way that they were. And every business has different needs. And every manager manager is different, but it's definitely still a demand. This next generation Gen Z, I believe we're calling them they are not going to go work in any setting for 40 hours a week. So there's that generation that's going to change things, and a lot of ways, but definitely the workforce, they're not willing to work. Eight to fives like we were. So that's   Michael Hingson ** 46:57 well, and the reality is that normal will, you know, people can talk about getting back to the way we were but normal will never be the same again. And there have been there are, there's always change. There are times in our history where there have been quantum sudden changes. I mean, September 11 was one which of course I'm very familiar with, but the pandemic is another one and there have been others that are dramatic changes, normal will never be the same again. And there's nothing wrong with not trying to get back to the way everything was before. Because if we do that, then we're going to play in forget what we learned. And so we don't want to do that.   Ashley Pope ** 47:42 No, we don't want to do that.   Michael Hingson ** 47:46 So you had your own diagnosis, you talked about Multiple Sclerosis, and so on. How did you're learning to be an advocate for Gavin, and all that you learned about Gavin and his experiences and adventures? How did all that help you? Because now suddenly, it hits even closer to home for you?   Ashley Pope ** 48:09 Yeah, it was definitely a mind switch. I learned so much through advocating for my son. So being able to immediately know, okay, like I can get through this. I've been through other hard things. And I just need to know what's out there. And I need to find the resources and absorb all of the information that I can and find people who can help. And I'll be okay. So that was kind of my initial thought I immediately reached out to the Multiple Sclerosis Society thinking okay, well, if Autism Society has gotten me this far, breastfeed, MS society that can help as well. And we did there was a lot of help there. There's not a lot of answers with a mess, there's more questions than there are answers. And that has been one of the most difficult things for me. I do find peace through information and through knowing what is going to happen knowing what's gonna come next. And that really went out the window with Ms. I would say with my son, there's this constant belief that things are going to improve and they have improved and they'll continue to improve will continue to learn and older and learn new skills and we can be there for him and with him. And a mess is different, rather than things are going to get better. It's kind of knowing that things are going to get I don't want to say well worse but it is a progressive, debilitating conditions. So   Michael Hingson ** 49:56 unless, unless of course somebody finds a way to birsa Cure,   Ashley Pope ** 50:00 yes, a cure. And that is part of the mission of the MS Society is to find a cure and restore what's been lost, which is awesome. So yes, fingers crossed, but I do have to prepare for more needs down the line. And already in the last few years, I've lost some strength in my hand, and in my right hand and my left foot. So it's just becoming, finding a different level of acceptance. So in a lot of ways, I did it, I don't think I really went through the same. I call it a grief process, I feel like there should be a better word because you don't you grieve when somebody dies. And as we've already talked about, nobody's dying. So but it is that same kind of process, right? Where like, okay, things have just changed, I'm kind of going to grieve things as they are, or denial, or denial, right. And he goes through like the same process of like denial, and, you know, the bargaining and anger or whatever, whatever. So, of course, I went through a little bit of that with my son early on. But I felt like with that mess, it was just like, so much easier to just get straight to acceptance. And I talked to a therapist, and I was like, I know, this sounds crazy, but I think I just like, the whole process. And I think it's because fairly recently in the last decade, I already went through something that's it's not similar, but it's still similar in a way like, they're, they're not connected, but I feel like I was just immediately able to be like, okay, Ms. Like, what is it? How do we deal with it and what comes next, and I just kind of skipped, like, all of these stages of grief or whatever we want to call it these stages that people usually go through when they get news like this. And that I think, was interesting. And I do think it was directly related to the work that I've already done around accepting things as they come being okay with not having all the information. The fact that I'll always be an advocate for my son, but that job is never going to be able to retire from that job. Not that I would ever want to, but it made it easier in a way to find the information and just to move through to where I can have an impact. And I was ready to share pretty early on. I didn't make it super public. But because I was on immunosuppressants during COVID I wasn't shy about telling people like hey, you know, if you're if you feel sick at all, or if you haven't been vaccinated, these are my limitations in that I just started on immunosuppressants. So I did feel really vulnerable in those early days, especially before I knew what immunosuppressants meant for me and during a pandemic.   Michael Hingson ** 53:01 Did you get vaccinated and all that stuff?   Ashley Pope ** 53:03 I did. But with the, the drug that I'm on, it actually greatly reduces the effectiveness of the COVID vaccination, it kills the B cells like that you're the COVID vaccine attaches to to get to its destination. I'm not a scientist, so forgive me if I said that wrong. But basically, I didn't have the cells to carry the vaccine. So I did get it. And then off the boosters, and I, you know, I did all the things, but it was very clear, like, that may have been just basically a shot of water for you, and may or may not have actually worked for you. So I was nervous about dying, because I feel like it's fair to be. But I think, yeah, it just it really did change the way that I think about it, these processes that we go through because I didn't handle it so different at time. And it also the vulnerability, I think is the biggest thing for me that I had to deal with. That was different from my son. Because as a mama bear, you know, you defend your kid at all costs, you get out there and you make things happen for your kid. But when it came to advocating for myself, I found that I would kind of lose the words when it would come time to talk to the doctor, I found myself kind of been like, oh, you know, it's not these things are not that bad or kind of stretching. Like if they'd asked me a question like, how can you do this? I would so want to say like, yeah, I can do that I can do this and that and this hasn't changed that much and just kind of predict things in a positive light. So I kind of had to start thinking like I have to advocate for myself as if I'm advocating for somebody else because it's really hard for me to say that I need help.   Michael Hingson ** 55:00 The same process does fit. We, I was in New York on March 5, of 2020, to do a speech and flew back early on March 6, because of COVID. And also, my wife had been diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis in 2017. So she was on medications to suppress part of her immune system to help deflect or deal with the RA. So we immediately went into lockdown, and just stayed home. And, and then when the vaccinations when the vaccines came out, we started taking them. And in fact, I, we both were all up to date. And then I learned that being over 65 I could get another vaccination recently. In fact, I could have gone in late February, but I didn't know it then. But anyway, I just went in today for another vaccination, because I'm going to be doing some traveling and I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that I can be as protected as possible. And I recognize that the vaccine doesn't keep you from getting COVID. But it certainly mitigates it a lot. So my intention is not to get it. I also don't mind wearing masks. I've been on airplanes for long periods of time with a mask doesn't bother me. And it doesn't seem to bother my guide, dog Alamo. He doesn't look at me differently, because I happen to wear a mask, so I'm not going to worry. Yeah. But you know, the fact of the matter is that it's something that is part of our world. And there's nothing wrong with it.   Ashley Pope ** 56:43 Yeah, I may be on the same drug as your wife. Actually. They're both autoimmune conditions. So she took her brinsea Oh, no, I'm mine for Tuckson. So but probably still do the same things. amatory processes similar. Yes, different different parts of the body, tissues, whatever.   Michael Hingson ** 57:03 Same concept, in a lot of ways. Well, so obviously, you have a disease that's very progressive, and I do hope that we find cures for that and other things, or, or at least things to improve it for you as time goes on. But how for you? How has your own diagnosis really affected? How you deal with being an advocate, and how you encourage others to advocate for themselves? You've I think you've hit on some of that. But if you want to summarize, you know, you're, you're now having to be a double advocate, if you will, how is your own diagnosis help with that?   Ashley Pope ** 57:46 Yeah, I think the vulnerability has been good for me, in a sense, I don't think I've ever truly felt vulnerable in my life. Until I got my diagnosis, even through my son's diagnosis, I always have been like that I can handle it, I can handle it, I'll do it. I'll make it happen type of person. And feeling firsthand, like things need to change so that I can live a fulfilling life is a much different place to come from then, even when you're advocating for your own kid. There's a sense of, it's probably, I would think how someone feels when they have a child with special needs. And there they are ending. Like nearing the end of their own life. They probably feel like oh my gosh, who's gonna protect my, my kid, if I can't, and I know that a lot of parents feel that as they age. But this was my first experience with like, oh, I have something that can impact my ability to do what I want to do in my life. And it just made me more I think sensitive, and I have a lot more empathy for people and their unique situations now, because it's a situation that I never could have imagined myself in until I found myself in it.   Michael Hingson ** 59:21 Yeah. What do you want people to know about? Somebody who has a progressive, debilitating diagnosis? How do you? What do you want people to think about that? And what would you like them to do?   Ashley Pope ** 59:37 I see. A lot of people don't know how to respond. Social relationships can become a little bit strained. Because things change in your ability. Like in my case, my ability to say yes to everything. I really had to stop saying yes, which I should have stopped doing a long time ago. But I'm definitely like I've said a couple of times there. In this conversation, I'm a doer. And I had to start saying like, No, I can't, I can't take that on, I really need to prioritize that I'm going to prioritize. And there have been some people in my life who didn't like that so much, or felt that like, I was changing, which I have changed. Obviously, these situations have changed who I am a little bit as we should, I would just say, just be a friend. And don't be afraid to ask how somebody is doing. Don't stop checking in and just, you know, do what you would want somebody to do for you in that situation, which is not to disengage. And then general public. I would say that one in four adults in their lifetime will have a disability. So when you vote, and when you advocate for things to be a particular way, keep in mind that that could be you or someone that you love, that has some kind of condition or extra need. And so we should always take care of each other and consider that things should be accessible to all once again, kind of circling back to that, you know, we can we can do so much better with our resources in this country. And it's rarely the wrong decision when it allows more people access, whatever, whatever it is that we're looking at, that's just a very general statement. But if you're looking at opening the world to more humans who live on it, then that's probably the way to go. Because it's just the right thing to do.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:53 And I think the most important thing you said is be a friend, there's nothing wrong with different. There shouldn't be, even if the different is something that maybe you've been taught is a bad thing. Is it really? And yeah, Multiple Sclerosis is progressive right now. But we've seen so many modern kinds of progresses in so many ways. Who knows, and autism the same thing, or blindness or even being a politician? I'm sure there's a cure for that. But I haven't found that one yet, either. So that's another story. But the bottom line is that, in reality, we're all different. And you're right. 25% have what's considered a typical disability, although I've made the case before that everyone has a disability who lives on this planet. And for most people, it's like dependents. But you know, the bottom line is that we all have different challenges. And we all by the way, have gifts that we get to use, if allowed the opportunity. And that's the most important thing. And I'm really excited about hearing and having had the opportunity to hear all the things that that you do and get to do. So what are you going to write a book about all this?   Ashley Pope ** 1:03:09 You know, that was something that I was actually in the process of writing a book when I was diagnosed with autism. And I set it aside, and I just was like, so everything changed. In that moment, I have written quite a bit around diagnosis and accepting of diagnosis and how to be a friend in diagnosis. Rather, it's been a friend to, you know, parent who has a newly diagnosed child, or what that looks like mostly around autism, because that's my experience. And then I had this experience, and I really just had to set it aside and kind of find my, my opinion, and my, my thoughts. But who knows, maybe down the line right now, I'm just trying to juggle everything I juggle. But we'll see, you know, you never know, they may,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:05 you may find that sitting down and writing about some of it will be a help to you. And you now clearly have a whole new dimension that you can add to it, I would think it'd be very powerful, which isn't to say just drop everything and do it. But you might certainly sit down and continue to write thoughts because those then that will help you. I know for me, people have asked if I've ever gone to therapy after September 11. And my response is I hadn't but I started getting requests for television and radio and newspaper interviews and so on and chose to accept those if it would help people move on from September 11. And I got to teach people about blindness and guide dogs and all that. And I've realized over the years that literally going through hundreds of those and talking about September 11 Being asked the dumbest and the most intelligent questions, was invaluable at learning to deal with it, and to talk about it, and I wouldn't trade those experiences for anything. And so it is, you know, I do know that writing is a valuable thing. You know, we wrote thunder dog, which I actually started in 2002. And it took over eight years to complete. But right from the beginning, I started writing a lot of my thoughts, and that was helpful. So even just writing things down, although you may not ready to be ready to put them in a book might be helpful.   Ashley Pope ** 1:05:33 Yes, absolutely. Or, you know, there's also like voice recording and just getting your thoughts out, I think is really important. So I am a big proponent of therapy and talking and learning, right learning and sharing, I find a lot of peace and volunteering and giving back and talking to other parents and giving people resources. And just learning obviously, even today, it's been a learning experience. I've learned something new about you know, your, your experience, and it's, it's all empowering.   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:15 It is and, and you, like all of us can choose how we deal with our gifts and what we know and what we do and what we use. And so I'm sure it's all gonna work out well for you. And I'm really glad that we had the chance to do this. If people want to talk with you, is there any way they can reach out to you or interact with you?   1:06:36 Sure, I would say let's enact first by email. And the email I will give is my Autism Society email. It's Ashley a s h l e y at autism ventura.org. That's a s h l e y autism a u t i s m Ventura, v e n t u r a.org.   1:06:58 And Ventura really means in parentheses hingsons jealous. But that's another story. That's great.   Ashley Pope ** 1:07:05 If anybody is it, is it it's a fantastic place and also a good place to live. It's a good place to live for people with autism because there's great services California in general, has more than a lot of other states. And a mess wise now I'm like, sorry, sorry, family, I can't go visit you. Unless it's less than 87 or 87 degrees, it's probably pushing it like 85 degrees. But I've always been so spoiled here in Ventura, because it's like, we pretty much live between 65 and 73. Like, doesn't change much from there. That's where this town's is all year long. So really good for somebody with an autoimmune condition for sure.   1:07:49 There you go. Well, I want to thank you for being here. And I want to thank you for listening. So if any of you would like to chat with us about this, please feel free to email me. You can reach me at Michaelhi, m i c h a e l h i at accessibe  A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael Hingson m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. But wherever you're listening, please give us

The Inside Stylists Podcast: Episode 131 Laura Ashley's Vice president and Head of design told us they're still going strong... and we're excited  Show notes for today's episode are here Today, for the first time since BC (before Covid) I am recording a podcast in person and I have to say this is a great way be doing it as I'm chatting with Poppy Marshall-Lawton, Vice President and Helen Ashmore, Head of Design, at none other than Laura Ashley. Laura Ashley turns 70 this year - and yes they are still going and going strong, so, I thought now was the perfect time to catch up and see what's going on in the land of fabulous florals. Enjoy.   The Inside Stylist's Interior Styling Course   Find us here InsideStylists.com Instagram: Instagram.com/InsideStylists  Facebook: Facebook.com/InsideStylists Podcasts : Insidestylists.com/podcast/ Blogs : Insidestylists.com/inside-stylists-blog/

Today we're diving into the world of private yacht charters. Whether you're taking 30 of your best friends on a mega yacht or just want a nice 4 cabin catamaran for your family in the British Virgin Islands - there is a yacht out there for you!  I grew up sailing and during Covid I took a course on yacht brokering, so we love planning this type of trip for our clients but there are still so many unknowns if you've never done a yacht charter so I wanted to have one of our partners join me today for a Yachting 101 session.  Trish Cronan and I discuss the feeling of freedom you get when enjoying a yacht charter, the many different destinations you can enjoy, the basics like cost and itinerary planning, and some fun stories from sea.  Learn more at www.luxtravelinsider.com   Connect with me on Social: Instagram LinkedIn  

Do you ever feel like your immune system is working against you? You don't know what's wrong, no one else knows what's wrong, you keep doing medical tests and it's coming back normal or the pieces don't add up. Autistic people often experience a myriad of chronic health conditions and nervous system dysregulation that leaves us feeling terrible, overwhelmed, and with tons more questions than answers about what's going on with our bodies. In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, talk with Dr. Mel Houser (she/they), an autistic family physician, about myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), the connection between Autism and nervous system dysregulation, the struggles with the healthcare system and getting treatment for these symptoms, and the importance of becoming a “detective in your own life.” Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode: Understand the role that daily experiences play in potentially triggering health conditions or pain through nervous system dysregulation. Uncover the complexities of living with neuroimmune conditions like ME CFS and mast cell dysfunction. Learn how to get support to address the unique challenges that neurodivergent individuals face in accessing mental health and medical care. More about Dr. Mel Houser: Dr. Mel Houser (she/they) is an Autistic family physician with a clinical focus on providing primary care for neurodivergent patients across the lifespan. She is the Founder and Executive Director of All Brains Belong VT, a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization in Montpelier, Vermont that uses universal design principles to provide neurodiversity-affirming medical care, social connection opportunities for all ages, and neurodiversity-related educational training. At age 37, Dr. Houser was diagnosed as autistic, ADHD, dyspraxic, dyslexic, and dyscalculic. She is also the parent of an autistic 6-year-old, who is her guru of so many keys to the universe. Website: https://allbrainsbelong.org  Instagram: @allbrainsbelongvt Check out All Brains Belong's new project: Everything is Connected to Everything: Improving the Healthcare of Autistic & ADHD Adults provides health education resources to support people with this constellation of intertwined conditions, as well as strategies for discussing the project with medical providers. There is also a Clinician Guide with a combination of evidence-based practice and the lived experiences of more than 100 Autistic and ADHD community members. Here's the link to the project: https://allbrainsbelong.org/all-the-things    Transcript PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone, you are listening to the Divergent Conversations Podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale. MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff. PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening. MEGAN NEFF: Well, Mel, I was so excited when you reached out to me over email. Patrick and I have been talking about how we just keep getting sick. I've been dealing with long COVID. And we've been saying probably for the last four weeks we've got to do an episode on health.  So, you're an autistic physician, this is your, like, specialty. I'm so excited you're here. Before we started recording, I was talking about like, "Oh, we don't do bios." Which I actually love. It feels more organic. But it does put a little bit more pressure on you to explain to the audience who you are and give us context.  So, can I hand it over to you to give us some context of who you are, why this conversation is important to you around autism and health? MELISSA HOUSER: Definitely, and thank you so much for having me. So, yes, I am an autistic physician. I am the founder and executive director of a nonprofit in Vermont called All Brains Belong. We provide neurodiversity-affirming medical care, in addition to social connection opportunities for kids and adults, plus, community education.  And in my medical practice, I am providing medical care, both primary care and additional support for the conditions that we'll talk about today for kids and adults. And so, not all of my patients are neurodivergent but most are. And the majority of my autistic and ADHD adult patients suffer from a constellation of related medical conditions. And the problem is that not only do many medical providers not know that these conditions are related, the standard management of some parts of this constellation, and in my practice, we would really call it all the things because mostly all the people here have all the things, so… MEGAN NEFF: I love that, all the things. That's a good hashtag. MELISSA HOUSER: Yeah, so the standard management of some parts of all the things make the other parts of all the things worse. It's like internal conflicting access needs. MEGAN NEFF: Absolute, I love how you unpack that. A lot of the folks I work with and myself included will talk about that of like, well, I could do this medication for this diagnosis, but then, this other diagnosis I have is going to be negatively impacted by that treatment. So, it's like this wacky mole of health conditions.  Yes, so having a provider who can do the zoom out which Western medicine is not historically great at, the, like zoom out, let's look at this whole body, and how its integrated. I get the sense you're absolutely doing that. I love the language of constellation. I feel like that is a really integrative way of thinking about it. I'm curious what you would say are some of the like, big planets in the constellation. Also, I love how we're like co-creating a metaphor here as we [CROSSTALK 00:03:51]- MELISSA HOUSER: I love this. Yes, like, yes. So, I've been thinking about these "planets" as like buckets. So, this constellation includes something in the allergy immunology bucket, something in the connective tissue bucket, something in the gastrointestinal bucket, something in the sleep bucket. MEGAN NEFF: That's that. MELISSA HOUSER: Yeah, great, right, right, yeah. Something in the nervous system or neuropsychiatric bucket, something in the metabolic or vitamin absorption bucket, and something in the dental face and jaw bucket. And- MEGAN NEFF: Oh, that's a new one. I didn't know about that. MELISSA HOUSER: Yeah, yeah. And so, one of the things about this is that many people go often decades with like, maybe some like prodromal mild symptoms, and then because these are all neuro immune conditions, meaning they impact the nervous system and the immune system, and like the system's crosstalk, the mast cells, which we can talk more about, anytime the neuro immune systems get triggered by something, whether that be infection like COVID, for example, or surgery, or a concussion, or like, you know, trauma, you know, physical/emotional trauma, any kind of trauma, like these, or pregnancy, or menopause, or like just any trigger to the neuro immune systems, these conditions can get worse and for many people, they can get a lot worse. MEGAN NEFF: So, not that I'm going to treat this like a consult, but this feels like a consult question. So, for me, I had two very complicated pregnancies as well as two pregnancy losses. So, pregnancy, that whole season of life was difficult for me. But both of my two labors, complicated and did C-sections, my recovery to C-sections was brutal. And I always attributed that to the fact that I'd had a 36-hour labor and uterine infections. But based on what you're saying about surgery, is it possible that my difficulty coping post-C-section was actually related to organic things going on related to being autistic? MELISSA HOUSER: That is certainly possible. And in my practice, we see surgery, both from… there's all these different aspects of surgery, that's like a whole other podcast episode maybe. But like, when we think about, you know, aspects of connective tissue, for example, many autistic ADHD people have a condition called Hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. So, like. wound healing from a connective tissue standpoint. Like, we just maybe don't heal well. And then, like, again, the autonomic nervous system aspects of, you know, maybe there's an impact in like blood flow, and maybe there's an impact in like, blood pressure, and heart rate, and like, all these things. Yeah, all of it, it's all related.  But I think the take-home point is that everything's connected to everything. And I think patients know that. It's the medical system that's so like, fragmented and siloed with like the body parts are treated as separate entities, but like, we know everything's connected to everything.  And you know, I love, Megan, you're talking about zooming out. You know, it's kind of like, you know, like on Google Maps, and you're so zoomed in, you don't even know what [INDISCERNIBLE 00:06:52] that you're on. Like, that's what goes on in healthcare. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think this is such an important topic because so many medical professionals don't look at it in that perspective, or are not neurodivergent affirming, in general. And that [INDISCERNIBLE 00:07:08] to impact everything in terms of even like seeking out treatment, seeking out support, being comfortable disclosing your own autistic diagnoses sometimes can feel really challenging and triggering as well.  I was telling Megan, like, I'm 36 years old, I can remember being sick all my life, like getting mono at super early ages, in like second and third grade, being out of school a lot. And now my career has taken me to a place where I travel pretty often, and I'm sick constantly, whether it's upon arrival, or when it's upon landing, and coming home. And the immune system just feels like it can never catch up. And I just started to think about how much association there was between the way an autistic nervous system and body heals and recovers, and also, responds to stimuli, and just responds to immunity, in general. And it's just fascinating to start thinking about it from this lens. MELISSA HOUSER: Yes, and a good search term is myalgic encephalitis chronic fatigue syndrome, MECFS. So, MECFS is this really complicated neuro immune condition that impacts multiple organ systems. It's part of the cluster, it's not its own thing, it's part of it. You know, and many people, for example, think about long COVID as being MECFS triggered by COVID. And the thing about MECFS that's really important, and, you know, patients with MECFS, which is, like, for any people's triggered by illness, you know, doesn't have to be COVID, it could have been like, you know, Epstein Barr virus, which is the virus causes mono, like you're saying, you know, Lyme. There's like all these things that kick off MECFS.  And what we know is that one of the common hallmarks of MECFS is something called post-exertional malaise, PEM. And PEM is the consequence of, like you just said, the body doing too much. So, you tell me the story of every time you go do something too much your neuro immune system responds. And what happens is if you push through post-exertional malaise, it actually prolongs recovery. And so, and this can be, you know, physically pushing through, this can be emotionally pushing through, a cog really pushing through, and like you think about it, like, that is daily life for many neurodivergent people to survive in this world that is not built for us. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, Megan and I talk about that constantly about the fact that we're both very privileged to work from home, to work for ourselves, to have a lot of privilege in terms of employment. And I think about it, like, I'm intentionally placing myself in situations that are going to make me feel this way, but a lot of people don't have the choice, and have to go to work from a 9:00 to 5:00, or have to show up in large communities of people, and just thinking about how much impact that has on both the body, the immune system, and the nervous system, and not just feel pretty constant, and feeling like there's not a lot of escape from that in a lot of ways, either, in terms of recovery. MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative.) MELISSA HOUSER: Yes, yes. And like when you think about, like, zooming way out, when viewed through an equity lens of like who gets to show up in society. And so, you have these layers that we might talk about like a lack of neuro inclusion. But like, if you don't have, like, the privilege of autonomy over like the safety of the air you breathe, or like whether you, in fact, are forced because as a survival requirement to put yourself in situations that harm your health, and there's so many layers of that.  MEGAN NEFF: I think what really complicates it, you know, when I hear you talking about MECFS or some of these other conditions, these are not conditions that are well recognized by most doctors, and so, the experience, and then, especially, if you're a high masking autistic or ADHD person, the experience of chronic invalidation from the medical community that a lot of us experience of like, "There's something wrong with me, I'm tired." Like, I remember what I was at the height of my fatigue, I had gone to a naturopath who was like, "Your adrenals are…" Like, "You're producing cortisol of an 80-year-old woman." And I was 31. And I went to my Western doctor, and I showed her these, like hormone tests, totally dismissed. And then, she's like, "Well, you seem kind of emotional." Because I was really anxious talking to a medical provider, "How about we start you on an antidepressant?" MELISSA HOUSER: Hashtag health care, right? Like, this is what goes on.  MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. So, that, like, chronic diffuse, just feeling of unwell paired with chronic invalidation is just, I'm trying not to swear, but like, I will swear here, it is a mind fuck. MELISSA HOUSER: Yap, yap. Amen to that. So, you know, it's really hard. And I can send you a recording from a free educational that my organization put on last month about the health care system, and like, everything you just said. And so, we had a panel of clinicians, medical clinicians talking about, like, the system.  So, a lot of times it's not the individual healthcare provider who's like setting out to, like, thwart and invalidate the patient. It's the system is thwarting and invalidating the clinicians, which, like, interferes with full access to one's cortex to like perspective taking, you know? What's the consequence of saying that thing right now to that person? Like, it's everything. MEGAN NEFF: I love that Mel. So, I think an unfair burden gets placed on the providers, and the clinicians, and people don't often realize. So, I used to work in hospice, people don't often realize like, these medical providers are so booked in their days and like, it is like the system, like there's a reason so many medical providers are experiencing burnout, moral injury is so elevated in the medical community. So, this is not like medical providers being terrible humans, this is a much, like, the context around this is so much bigger, and I appreciate that you could bring that in. MELISSA HOUSER: Yeah, like, it's, you know, healthcare system is the villain, not the individual people within. MEGAN NEFF: Right, right. They've got 20 minutes with you, like 20 patients that day, and yeah. PATRICK CASALE: And if we're being honest, most of the medical model is set up to just treat symptoms, right? Like, we're treating symptomology. We're saying, okay, if this is what you're explaining, and experiencing, this is how we fix it and alleviate it. And for autistic, or ADHD, or any neurodivergent human, it's so much more complicated than just saying, "Oh, Megan's emotional right now, let's start an antidepressant." Like, that's just a quick band-aid fix that does not actually zoom out, as we're saying, and take into consideration everything that's going on behind the scenes. But if you don't have time to take in to consideration everything that's going on behind the scenes, it's a double-edged sword. It's like where do you fix the problem? And how do you alleviate that?  I was telling Megan, yesterday, I have a healthcare collective that I'm a part of here in Asheville. And my PCP I think is quite open-minded, and really wants to be holistic, and integrative, and perspective. I sent her Megan and I episode on neurodivergence and sleep because we were talking about feeling dismissed when you go in and talk about sleep. And the issue is like, "Have you tried mindfulness? Have you tried relaxation techniques? Have you tried this? Have you tried this?" And we're like, yes, we're fucking autistic. Like, I've researched everything under the sun that could help me sleep more than two hours a night. I promise you, anyway. She messaged me yesterday and was like, "I listened to your episode. I can't believe how dismissive I came across. I'm so sorry for that. And can you help me navigate how we can better understand how to help you sleep and rest?" And I thought that was so unbelievably validating. And I was like, "Okay, I can see this person and feel really comfortable here." MELISSA HOUSER: I mean, this person cued safety right there? Like, "Oh, I just got chills." Like that, yeah, right. There are people who get it and can come to get it. So, and I don't know if this will air, or when this will air, or whatever but All Brains Belong has for the past year, we've been creating a free resource both for patients and for medical providers to different versions about this picture of all the things to just like be available of like, here's, you know, what's going on, here are some things that might help.  And it has been about really bridging the double empathy problem, where, you know, when we think about, you know, the questions, or even the style, the way of clinical interviewing that medical providers are trained in, like, does not work for all brains, right?  So, like, the medical writers are often not getting the information because they're not able to elicit the information. Like, the patients will tell you what's wrong, if you can, like, cue safety, and allow people to have access to their own cortex, to communicate in their own way. And we did focus groups of autistic adults, about like the words they use to describe their experiences. And so, that's all like built in to the tool. And so, like, when it's out, it'll be out like, maybe in like, three weeks. You know, I can send it along. MEGAN NEFF: That's amazing. That is like one of the top requests I get is, can I have like a one-page handout to help me advocate with my medical providers? I'm so glad you've created that or are creating that. We'll absolutely link that because I think that'd be a really helpful resource.  I like how you keep going back to cueing safety. I had a medical appointment last week and it's interesting. I'm not emotional. I've talked about that on this podcast. The one place I cry is in medical offices. Like, it's not intense, but it's like I'll say something vulnerable. And I think it's because I'm so prepared and scared about being misunderstood that it is really like the one place I cry. MELISSA HOUSER: Yeah, I know, that resonates with me a lot. I, in general, don't seek a lot of health care for all the things. I have all the things also- MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:17:54]. MELISSA HOUSER: Yeah, except very health care avoidant, right, exactly. But, yeah. Yes, like your nervous system is like, it's a trauma response, right? It's just, you know, you're waiting for the next hit. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. PATRICK CASALE: Well, Megan and I have also talked about, you know, as mental health professionals how often autistic adults or adolescents, young adults won't come into a therapy room and say, "Hey, I'm autistic." And therapists will then say, "I don't work with autistic people, this is not my area of expertise." And refer the person out the door. And how invalidating and dismissive that is.  So, if we take that in the mental health realm, and then, go into the medical world, there's almost this additional layer of fearfulness and vigilance around disclosure, and feeling safe, and feeling like you have to prepare to be dismissed or misunderstood, or you already feel dismissed and misunderstood in most areas of your life. So, it really does complicate seeking out treatment and support.  And I think myself, like, talking about just chronic health conditions, people in my life, you know, especially, like family members, or friend groups, or probably like, this is all hypochondria, like this is like you're sick all the time, there's always an issue here, like there's always something going on. And that can feel really invalidating and shame-inducing as well to constantly feel like, I always feel this way and I wonder what it would feel like to have a week or two where you're like in optimal health as a 35, 36-year-old human being. MEGAN NEFF: You know, one thing I've said my whole life pre-autism discovery was I just wish I could have a day in someone else's body. I just want to experience it. And I think it's because it's like, I don't feel like what I'm feeling is what other people are describing, but I don't know that because I only have my subjectivity. So, that's been my fantasy since I was a child, can I just experience someone else's body for 24 hours? MELISSA HOUSER: Yeah, so what our model at All Brains Belong is that connection is the path to health. So, we do a lot of group medical appointments, for example.  MEGAN NEFF: I love that.  MELISSA HOUSER: So, not only do we have this piece of like, I learned for the first time that I'm autistic and/or ADHD, but I'm also like, I have this thing, and it's called all the things. And the thing you've been saying was happening, it has been happening. And guess what, there's like a ton of other people who are experiencing this also, and you have fun together, and you learn together, and you learn how to adapt the environment, and the routines, you know, to meet your access needs and, you know, be promoting neuro immune health. MEGAN NEFF: I love that, I love that, this community of all the things. Okay, I'm going to ask a question, and if you're like, no, I just don't want to go there, like just- MELISSA HOUSER: Okay.  MEGAN NEFF: …tell me. I noticed the first few years or the first year of entering autism advocacy space, I was really cautious of talking about anything related to gut health, nutrition, because for so long the message was, if you cure your gut, you will cure autism. And so, I wanted to steer so clear from any of those reductionistic stories of autism of this health thing or like if you cure your nervous system, you cure autism. I've heard that too. So, that nuance of autistic people are more vulnerable to a ton of health conditions and supporting it supports our well-being, and no, we're not trying to cure autism, that sort of middle line of here are some things you can do to support yourself. Like, do you ever experience tension around that or? MELISSA HOUSER: Yeah, no, it's interesting. I, like, sick mono-tropism. I, like, forgot to experience tension around that because I like experience tension by so many other things. So, I would say that it's not that these neuro immune conditions, like I read this book about like, some component of all the things that was talking about, you know, it had like a curative narrative, and it was gross. Anyway, whatever, I won't even like name the book.  But it is worth like throwing that narrative out, like I am autistic, I have always been autistic, I always will be autistic. And in fact, it is the fact that I am autistic that allows me to zoom out and see the whole pattern because that's, like, what my brain does, right?  So, it's that. These patterns are more common because of the way that we're wired. And most of the environment is unsafe, it's the environment that's unsafe. And so, that is why we're going to have a dysregulated autonomic nervous system, we're going to have a dysregulated immune system, we're going to have mast cells, which are a type of immune cell that like crosstalks between the nervous system, and the immune system, and the soft tissue, there's mast cell receptors on every organ system, like, so it's a good search term because that like managing your mast cells is like part of how you support this cluster.  And it's not because we're trying to like, not be autistic anymore, we're trying to like, not be in pain, and we're trying to not have a blood pressure plummeting, we're trying to not have you know, trouble breathing, we're trying to not have a GI tract that's completely flipping its lid all the time when we eat. Like, that. So, I would just name… MEGAN NEFF: Yes, I love that. And then, this is where also like mental health, right, so many of the things you just named are going to cause mental health issues, right? MELISSA HOUSER: Of course. MEGAN NEFF: A dysregulated nervous system, fight/flight anxiety. So, for therapists like Patrick and I, you know, we aren't typically trained to look for, like nervous system dysregulation as the cause. So, we'll go straight to like, here's some emotion regulation strategies. Not that those don't have an impact on nervous system, a lot of emotion regulation strategies are downregulation strategies, but I find adding an element of nervous system work in therapy for autistic people is so important.  MELISSA HOUSER: I would add to that because like, what you're both bringing to the community is so critical because, you know, not only do we have patients who are seeking mental health support from like, neuro normative therapists that are like, you know, pointing out their irrational thoughts or something, but also, we bring this layer now, in the context of all the things that not only is emotional dysregulation, you know, equal, nervous system dysregulation, actually, making the mast cells more pissed off, actually, impacting the immune system.  But the other way goes too, so if you have, you know, for example, where I am in Montpelier, Vermont, there was just really devastating floods. So, like, everything is wet and there's all kinds of crap in the flood water, and so, you know, a lot of people's mast cells are flaring. And so, what they may feel in their bodies may not be, "You know, I feel my mast cells." Like, they just feel terrible. They don't know what kind of terrible they feel because it's not like one or the other, it's everything because everything's connected. MEGAN NEFF: Okay, so my internal clock just went off around how long we've been talking. And one thing I'm trying to be mindful of is as much as we talk about some of the hardships and the challenges we experience around navigating healthcare, I also want to have some words of encouragement, or empowerment, or just really practical advice that people can take away. So, I'm curious, kind of, what do you recommend to people, if they're listening to this, and they're like, "Oh, my goodness, I think maybe I've got all of the things but I didn't realize it." Like, what's next steps for them? Especially, if they're struggling to navigate with their medical team, things like that. Like, where do you start with people? What are some of your recommendations? MELISSA HOUSER: I think, like, first step is to figure out that this cluster or this constellation of related medical conditions may apply to you. And, you know, first off, I need to say the disclaimer that of course, this is like general education, this is not medical advice. But like in general, what people find helpful is first step to recognize that this pattern applies to them, and then to learn about the pattern because a lot of what we talked about earlier were some parts of the management of all the things, maybe other parts worse. A lot of times people know that, they know it about themselves, and there's also a ton of information out there amongst the neurodivergent community. They may not know it, they may not like, you know, know that all these conditions are connected or, but a lot of people do because they feel it in their own bodies, and there's a ton of information.  And I think what we've tried to do at All Brains Belong is like, synthesize all that information and put it in one place. But I think figuring out the things that make you feel better, that don't make you feel worse, like stopping the things and working with, you know, your personal medical provider to, like, figure out what are the things that I'm doing that might be making this thing worse, eliminating those things that are maybe making you worse, you know, is the first step I think.  And a lot of times, especially, you know, I would say like, if you're going to pick like one search term, I would read about mast cell activation syndrome, MCAS because if you can understand mast cells, this is a cornerstone of this constellation. MEGAN NEFF: So, I actually went on a rabbit trail a little earlier this year, and I was like, "Oh, maybe this is the missing thing." I've then, like, took a one-hour course on it. And like, in the course, the provider recommended a ton of vitamins. But I walked away from the course and I was like, "I don't actually know how to implement this or start."  MELISSA HOUSER: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, like, figuring out what your triggers are is the most important thing. And so, like, I'll give a personal example, sometimes when I do podcast interviews I shut off my air purifier because it makes a noise, and then, I feel terrible afterwards, and then, I'm like, "Huh, I think it took like the, like, sixth or seventh time over the past year." And I'm like, "Really, it's every podcast interview, what is that? I'm not stressed out." Like, I shut the freaking air purifier. There's something in the air that my mast cells are responding to. So, like, you have to be like zooming out, you feel like zoom out on your day, on your week, on your month, and like, identify these things, there's no test. Like, there's going to be no test that says, "You know, my mast cells are pissed off by something in my office." Like, we're not going to have that. It's like being a detective in your own life.  Or I've never had a problem with dairy, but after I had COVID I can't eat dairy anymore. It took me like a few weeks even to be like, "Wow, I feel so terrible." And I realized that's what it was. And so, yes, you know, there are a variety of medications and supplements that can be helpful, and like, you know, life-altering for many people in the context of all the things. But trigger elimination is really important. MEGAN NEFF: I love that idea of become a detective in your life. PATRICK CASALE: My mind immediately goes like to the cynical place, though, like when it's all the things, and then, you're like, I have to identify all of the triggers and all of the things. It feels very overwhelming. So, I think for our audience, like, one thing at a time, you know? Try really hard to start small. So, that's a good example of having like, major throat surgery this year, and still being impacted by it. MELISSA HOUSER: Sorry to hear that. And possibly related to all the things, right? So, yeah. The other thing is, Patrick, you brought up sleep a little while ago, that is a critical starting piece as well. When I listed the different buckets or like Megan's use of planets, you know, one of the things I listed was face, teeth, jaw. So, many of us we have long faces. You know, we have more of an oval-shaped face as opposed to a round face, right? Like, the three of us, like, look at our long faces. And so, we have, therefore, a narrower airway.  And if we also have Hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos, for example, we may have a high-arched palate, her palate though that like also is making the airway more narrow. And so, there's like extent, I should have said this earlier, each piece of all the things is known to be more common in autistic people and some of which are known to be more common ADHD which, of course, are like, you know, almost superimposed Venn diagram circles, right? But the idea being that, you know, these pieces are known by healthcare, but they're known as pieces, not as a whole entity. So, like, yeah, you might say, yes, you know, I know that obstructive sleep apnea, for example, is more common in autistic people because that is known, and having, you know, obstructive sleep apnea is more common in people with long faces and higher arched palates, that's known. Obstructive sleep apnea is more common in people with Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, that's known. Put it together, zoom way out, this is one thing and a lot of us have sleep apnea.  And so, you know, in my medical practice that is a starting place in many people, is identifying what's going on with sleep because it is so much bigger than like, like the examples you gave Patrick of like, you know, do you have a bedtime routine? Like, this is neuro immune, right? So, that is what I have to say about that. Fixing your sleep is essential and like if you don't fix your sleep, it's very hard to get the rest of all the things better.  MEGAN NEFF: Yes, I talk about that a lot, too. Same thing for mental health, it's like well, if sleep's off the rails, let's start there. Okay, so now I'm super curious, one thing that I hear and know is also common among autistic people is our voices tend to be raspier or just have a different tone. Like, both my kids have done speech pathology. I know and I talk more from my throat, so I've kind of a raspy voice, is that connected to the like high arch, and what you were just describing about throat jaw stuff? Or is that a different mechanism? MELISSA HOUSER: That's really interesting. I've never been asked that question before. That's a pattern I certainly see a lot and that I personally experience. And I wonder… I would imagine, I'm just like speaking off the cuff, I have no, like, literature to support what I'm about to say. But it's probably multiple things, right? So, raspiness might be because there's like mucus on the vocal cords because there's mast cell dysfunction. And so, you know, like, the allergic responses to things in the environment, so that might be playing a role of it.  There's also like the dyspraxia component of like, ineffective or inefficient motor plans of like, when I speak, you know, I'm using, like, all of my upper body at the same time. I'm turning all of it on because like, that's how I learned to do it. So, I keep doing it this way, at almost 40 years old. Or, you know, if I have, you know, Hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, and I'm working harder to hold myself upright, my diaphragm might get stuck, and I'm using my neck muscles to breathe, and so, these muscles get really tight, and so, that tension may be impacting, you know, vocal cord usage. Anyway, I would imagine it's like many, many things that are connected to all the things because everything's connected to everything.  MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. PATRICK CASALE: So, it's blowing my mind. I'm like, I wonder if my [INDISCERNIBLE 00:37:34] is diverticula? [CROSSTALK 00:37:36] 65, that's a whole conversation that we can go into, but it's the third issue that I have at 36 years old that I've had two surgeries for that impacts my vocal cords, that impacts everything, and it's just interesting to start conceptualizing it from this lens, and the recognition of everything being so connected, and yeah, potentially impactive. MELISSA HOUSER: All that's related because it's definitely related, it's like on the list, is that connective tissue goes to the whole body, and so, if you look at the connective tissue of your esophagus is extra stretchy than like, the outpouching within the connective tissue. Like, you push it through same way that like, a lot of autistic people who struggle with, like chronic constipation, it's because the colon gets extra stretched out, and then, loses it squeeze. You know, I mean, there's a lot of ableism in healthcare, right? But, you know, of course, that autistic person is constipated because, like, look at their terrible diet or look at their inactivity. It's like, no look at their connective tissue. MEGAN NEFF: So, I'm having like both aha moment, and kind of like an oh, shit, moment. Like, I think I sometimes feed into reductionism, partly, because my head just would like, it would be too much to contain. But like, I think I probably over-attribute a lot of autistic struggles to interoception issues and autistic burnout. I actually had this thought a few weeks ago when I was reading more on the research on autism and chronic fatigue of like, yes, burnout, but like, also, all of these, like, all of the things that you're describing, or even hearing that thing about the colon and constipation, I didn't know about this stretchy tissue aspect of it. So, there's more than interoception struggles going into that. It's kind of overwhelming. MELISSA HOUSER: It is overwhelming. So, like, I wouldn't say that, like, oh no, I like erred on the side of saying things were attributable to interoception. Like, there are also interoception differences, but also, when you're Hypermobile because for anyone, you don't get feedback, you don't get like proprioceptive feedback until you're at the end range of motion. And if you're like extra stretchy, you go past, you know, what someone else's end range of motion is. So, you don't feel your body, you don't get that proprioception until you've gotten big movements.  So, you know, when, like, I don't ever thought about this until, you know, I learned about all the things. But you know, I don't think I really feel my face unless I'm like smiling really, really big or like I think I'm smiling, but I'm really not. And the people are like, "Why are you so upset? "I'm like, "I'm not." Anyway, all that it's like that. So, it's [CROSSTALK 00:40:20]- MEGAN NEFF: So, do people feel their face?  MELISSA HOUSER: I think people feel their face. I think they, like, know like what facial expression they're making [CROSSTALK 00:40:29]- PATRICK CASALE: We can have so many conversations on this [CROSSTALK 00:40:33]. MEGAN NEFF: …and you're listening to this, like, I want people to comment if they feel their face. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, when you see the reel for this video, or for this episode, please comment if you can feel your face. We would like to know, this is part of our research. MEGAN NEFF: Well, it's the same thing with interoception, when I read about how interoception is measured, it's you connect a person to a machine and ask them to detect how many heartbeats they've had, and then, how accurate they are. And I was like, "Wait, what? People feel their heartbeat." Like, unless you're, like, sprinting- MELISSA HOUSER: Well, there's like a- MEGAN NEFF: …but otherwise no. MELISSA HOUSER: So, the thing is, what's really interesting is, you know, you could feel like, I don't feel hungry until I'm like ferociously hungry, and then, can like, no longer access food. But I feel my heartbeat all the time. And I feel all kinds of things all the time. Like, that was surprising to me to see how common that is, that like people might have, you know, an increased sensitivity to some types of interoception signals, but not to the others. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. No, and that difference of, and I think that's really important too of like, some interoception might be exaggerated, some might be under, and then, it's really more about the differentiation that causes a struggle. Can you differentiate? Is it accurate reflection of what's objectively going on? Yeah. MELISSA HOUSER: And like what you explain to yourself, so for example, like in my medical practice, when people learn about all the things, and then, something happens, they have a narrative to understand it. So, to the extent that your mast cells are triggered by your autonomic nervous system being triggered. Like, so that's where this integration of, you know, nervous system regulation strategies actually directly impacts the immune system. And part of that is like, knowing what this is, and not like… I mean, it's not that you don't worry that because like, it's still like, uncomfortable, and we need to have it not happen because it's impacting your quality of life. But we don't, like, you know, that like special narrative of like, I don't know what's wrong, and no one knows what's wrong, and they keep doing tests, and they come back normal, and there must be something really very dangerously wrong with me, that triggers mast cells, triggers autonomic nervous system, therefore, makes your symptoms worse. MEGAN NEFF: I love that kind of tie-in. And I did this a lot when I worked with chronic pain, not that it's all in your head, that's a terrible message. But the story we end up telling ourselves about the pain signals will influence whether or not we get more pain signals or not. And I'm hearing that same as you talk about the narrative around your health conditions and what you're experiencing is going to actually influence your mast cells and influence your body's response because if your body thinks it's in danger, it's going to say, "Hey, we need to go on high alert." And that fight/flight activation. So, absolutely, not that it's all in our head, but that the story we tell ourselves about our experience will influence what's happening in our body, MELISSA HOUSER: Just from a nervous system regulation standpoint, how could it not? You know, it's part of like, one of the strategies that one… But the other thing that I would say is that, like in my medical practice, you know, many people know that they're autistic and/or ADHD, many people come because they're wondering if they're autistic or ADHD, but many people come not having anything to do with that. They come because their needs were not met by the traditional healthcare system. And amongst that group, that group is much more likely to have all the things and that group is much more likely to be autistic and/or ADHD.  So, like, it goes both ways. And either way, when people just, you know, I would say very similarly for many people, when they discover their neuro divergence, that organizing narrative, like you said Megan, that organizing narrative is so… it can be like life alteringly helpful for many people so it is with all the things. Like, having a narrative to understand often like decades of your whole life of living in your body all through a single lens, that's the point. PATRICK CASALE: So, I think that we can have a whole series with you now because this is so unbelievably informative and honestly enjoyable. But I am always timekeeping for Megan's purposes, and we are getting close. So, I think that is a perfect way to wrap up with what you just said. And also, I think we're going to have like, once we release this episode, so many people Googling, "Can I see this practice in Montpelier, Vermont for health care?" And it's unfortunate, I wish that we knew about more practices within our country who are doing things the way you are doing them. It's really amazing. And I appreciate you showing up for the community the way that you are. MELISSA HOUSER: Thank you and I think, like, this is probably my, like, most enjoyable podcast experience. Like, this has been wonderful. PATRICK CASALE: I like hearing that. We are just going with the flow and seeing where it goes. And that's kind of been our routine since day one. And I think that's what works for us. And it's felt really, really enjoyable so far. MELISSA HOUSER: That's awesome. And I'll send you… when our All the Things resource is out, it's almost out, the flood was a setback. But we're still on track, we just have to do some… Because we also want to be using universal design principles in presenting this information. So, we have text, and we have graphics, and we just have to record some videos, and then, we'll be ready to go. MEGAN NEFF: So, yeah, I did want to ask Mel kind of so obviously, if people are in Vermont, they can come to your practice. But when I was on your website, it felt like you were also providing, at least education, but maybe not medical services to people outside of Vermont. But for people who might be interested in your work, like, are there ways that they can connect with you or connect with your center?  MELISSA HOUSER: Yeah, definitely. So, first off, we do educational trainings that, yes, most of the trainings that we do are for organizations of a wide variety of types. But we do have people who they are coming to learn about specific health topics. So, it's an educational consult. So, I do those. And so, it's not medical advice, it's not prescribing medicines or making diagnoses. But like, you know, we definitely have people who come and want to learn about all the things, so we definitely offer that.  And then, we have free community programs. So, for adults, we have Brain Club, it's virtual, it's open to anyone, everywhere, and it's free. It's [CROSSTALK 00:47:15]- MEGAN NEFF: …it's open to anyone  MELISSA HOUSER: [CROSSTALK 00:47:17] we have people… Like, last week we had somebody from the UK and somebody from Australia. Anyway, so it's open to everybody and like, it's a community education on everyday brain life. And we have, like, panelists, and presenters, and stuff, and it's really fun. And for kids, also, open to anyone, anywhere, we have Kid Connections. It's a friend-matching program. So, like, we connect kids based on their shared interests, like their shared [INDISCERNIBLE 00:47:42] and [CROSSTALK 00:47:44]. Yeah, that was a kid's idea. So, we have a junior advisory board, so this kid is nine-year-old. We were like, "How do you make kids feel like they belong?" "You let us do what we love." Holy crap, yes. So, anyway, that's what Kid Connections is. PATRICK CASALE: And where can people find this information for those that are like, "Oh my God, this sounds amazing." Where do they find that? MELISSA HOUSER: allbrainsbelong.org. PATRICK CASALE: And all of this information will be in the show notes so that everyone has easy access, and all of the links, and all of the information that Mel provided today. And we really appreciate you coming on and making the time. This has been really enjoyable and wonderful, wonderful resource for the community.  MELISSA HOUSER: Awesome, thank you so much. PATRICK CASALE: And to everyone listening to the Divergent Conversations Podcast, new episodes are out every single Friday on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share.

Episode 164 has themes of: Intuitive Awareness, Ideological thinking, Insecurity, Growth Mindset, Body Shaming, God, Mental Constructs, Healing the Mind, Shadow Work, Paradigm Shift, Gold & Silver, Fiat Currency, Belief Systems, Stagnation, Drugs & Alcohol, freedom community, COVIDI sit down with an old high school buddy named Adam Walton and we talk about everything that makes you think. Adam is an entrepreneur, coach, and leader in the space of personal development and Mental Mastery. He is the owner and founder of the Mental Mastery Alliance, and we share similar views on life, the freedom community, the conditioned mind, personal growth and development, winning and losing, reality vs. the constructs of the mind, and today on the show we get into ALL OF IT.Be prepared to think, get emotional, learn how you might be limiting yourself with your own beliefs and mental constructs, and of course, have fun and laugh with us (we even laugh at ourselves many times).Follow Adam on Social Media https://instagram.com/thementalmasteryallianceListen to his podcast: HERELearn more: https://thementalmasteryalliance.comFor more on the Elisa Unfiltered Podcast and all the links to all things Elisa Unfiltered click here: https://elisaunfilteredcoaching.com

In this episode of Cloudlandia, Prepare to embark on an enlightening journey as we traverse the diverse landscapes of Toronto, compare it to America's NFL cities, and reflect on how major 20th-century developments in the U.S., from the GI Bill to national television, continue to shape its geography and economy.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS The episode explores the diverse landscapes of Toronto, its vibrant neighborhoods and corporate ecosystem, and compares it to America's NFL cities. Dean and Dan discuss the major 20th-century developments in the U.S., such as the GI Bill and national television, and their impact on geography and economy. The episode highlights the potential future implications of the modern era of internet access and platform proliferation. They delve into the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on urbanization and manufacturing, drawing lessons from Japan's strategic decisions to place factories close to their customers. The podcast also touches on the repatriation of industry back to the U.S., and the financial implications of the Mason-Dixon line. Valuable insights are shared on creating a fulfilling decade of life, emphasizing the importance of creativity, productivity, and physical health. The "Fast Filter" tool is introduced to help listeners identify their top five strengths. The discussion includes how to incorporate enjoyment into life in a meaningful way. They reflect on the impact of defense of the French language on Montreal's dynamic spirit. Lastly, the podcast explores the intricate web of connections between industry, geography, and societal change. Links: WelcomeToCloudlandia.com StrategicCoach.com DeanJackson.com ListingAgentLifestyle.com TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dean Jackson Welcome to Cloudlandia. Is that the Mr Jackson who hangs out in that domain? Dan Sulllivan That is exactly right Ambassador of Clublandia. Dean Jackson Writing possibility in Sunder. Dan Sulllivan Exactly right. Dean Jackson Is the. Dan Sulllivan Canadian ambassador to Clublandia. Dean Jackson Yeah, the main one. Yeah, we both are we both go both ways. Dan Sulllivan That is so funny, actually, because you are an American living in Canada becoming a Canadian, and I am a Canadian living in America, but I'm an actual dual citizen. Dean Jackson Did you ever get a Canadian citizenship? Oh sure. Dan Sulllivan But you had to earn it right, 1985, something like that. Dean Jackson Yeah, I know it's been pushing 40 years and I've been a Canadian. Yeah, and it makes crossing back and forth across the border much easier. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, exactly, I look at that as one of my most wonderful uniqueness is being a natural born dual citizen through my mother and father, so having it every way possible. Being born to a US father and a Canadian mother on a US Air Force base in Canada, so it's like talk about the triple play there. It's every way you can have it, I've got it. I look at that as a really unique asset. Dean Jackson Yeah, and having listened to that, I have you on duration in Canada. That's probably true. Yeah, this is my 52nd year that I've been living in Canada. Okay, okay. Dan Sulllivan Consequently yeah consecutively. Dean Jackson Yeah, I've been here. I came in 71 in June, so it's 53rd year that I'm in the 53rd year. And I came up for a job offer with big ad agency and I said why not? I put in a couple of years, see what it's like. And here I am. You fell in love with it. It's funny, you know we find places that suit us. Yeah, that is true. People say why do you live where you live? And I said it suits me. You know Toronto kind of lets you alone. You know, as a big city and the metropolitan area, the GTA greater Toronto area, is 6.6 million and a lot going on. 60% of the people who live in that GTA were not born in Canada. They were born someplace else. And so yeah, majority of people, including myself, we were born someplace else, so it doesn't have the fervor of some other cities. You know where there's a civic spirit? I don't really detect a civic spirit in Toronto. Dan Sulllivan There's something. But I think it has to do with. Dean Jackson I think it has to do something with uniquely different neighborhoods that make up Toronto. You know, that they have character. Like I, live in an area called the beaches. There's a contention whether it's called the beach or the beaches, but I come down on the side of the beaches and it's like a close to side. It's like a small New England, you know, seaside town and it's got its own. It has a lot of different things going on during the year parades and parties and festivals and so it's got a nice quality to it. You know boardwalk along Lake Ontario. So it takes us, you know, and that's about a two mile boardwalk which is very nice to walk on, and then two minutes the other way puts us into a neighborhood storage district you know, you know you're a residential, but you have stores, and then you have the water and there's lots of parks there. Dan Sulllivan And you walk all the way to. Can you walk all the way to Harborfront along the path? I don't know if you. Dean Jackson I don't know if you, I don't know if you would walk. I mean, it's a bicycle. Dan Sulllivan That's already a bicycle, but it's there. Dean Jackson Yeah, but it's got. Yeah, well, it goes for. It goes for long ways. It goes all the way to Niagara Falls. Dan Sulllivan Actually, that's what I wondered Is it unbroken? Yeah, like there's a trail or a path. Yeah, it's. Dean Jackson It's temporarily broken because they're all the area which is called the dock lands, which is that big and starts in. Cherry Street. It's between Cherry and Leslie and that's south of Lakeshore where big factories, cement factories and everything. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, sugar there's a well. Dean Jackson That's further along. That's almost a red pass. It's almost downtown. Now I'm saying that the real estate that they have their sugar factory on is probably worth more than all the sugar they've ever sold. I bet Holy cow yeah. Dan Sulllivan Yeah. Dean Jackson And yeah, so it's. It's a nice city. I mean, it's a new city, you know, compared to, you know, new York or one of the other cities which go back to the 1600s. Toronto really just kind of starts in the late 1800s and so it's, and I am told, kind of a boring place. Montreal was the key exciting city in Canada up until the 70s and then it sharply changed because they put in the language laws the, you know, the French, defending the French language, and yeah, it doesn't make for a dynamic doesn't make. Defense never makes for a dynamic spirit. You know defense is not an entertaining activity. Dan Sulllivan Oh right. Dean Jackson Yeah, you don't find defenders telling jokes, you know they're short on sense of humor. So, anyway, so anyway. But Toronto, all the big corporations that had their headquarters in Montreal quickly moved them to Toronto and it became the key thing. Yeah, it's a major city. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, I've been working, you know, on in my mind here I was looking at some projects that I'm working on that we're going to roll out. This was with a client and we're looking at rolling out in what I've identified as NFL cities, basically, like every, when you look at it, that there's, you know, 30, you know NFL cities and they all have they're all these metro areas basically the GTA I wonder, you know, having grown up, my only experience is having my childhood be filtered through the lens of the GTA. So there's all that, what all that means? The Canadian and the specifically the Toronto sort of you know environment, everything was around you know the Toronto newspapers, the Toronto radio, you know your out. Your look to the world was CDC through, yeah, through that, and I imagine you know same thing in Canada, if we take you know NHL cities or CFL cities that you know the GTA has a different vibe than Ottawa and Montreal, and then they do have to Calgary and Regina. Yeah, all those things, yeah, and I wonder now, like what? How is this shifting? Is it relevant now in for Generation Z on the cover of Wired magazine this month as a Gen Z theme for the whole magazine? And you know there's such a big generation I mean there's 72 million of them, which is kind of funny. They're bigger than Baby Boomers and bigger than Generation X and the millennials but I wonder you know they've been grown into a Cloudlandia first world. Yeah, that really their primary world is Cloudlandia and it's almost like the thing, the importance or interaction or sense of identity or community that shapes as you kind of grew up in that thing. Do you think that's as relevant or do you think it makes any difference? Now, like you had the opportunity you kind of grew up in, if we take an NFL city kind of orbit or satellite, you grew up what would have been in the Cleveland the Browns. Dean Jackson The Browns, the Browns right. Your whole that's kind of like your satellite or orbit of Cleveland as the big city kind of thing, yeah and yeah, and that was sort of a real treat because I grew up on a farm 60 miles west of Cleveland and it was always a big treat when you got, we got to go downtown, you know to downtown Cleveland. Dan Sulllivan And. Dean Jackson Cleveland was a hopping place. I mean, I was born in the 40s and Cleveland was probably the fifth biggest American city then and a lot of wealth there. The Rockefellers are from Cleveland. And yeah, I mean, and, but then there was the Western movement, you know. But the world war. Second world war changed, really changed a lot of things. I always say there's four things that happened in the 40s and 50s that really changed the geography of the United States as far as what you thought of as places to go. And the first one was the GI Bill. You had 16 million people who got the GI Bill and that gave them really cheap education, really cheap, really cheap home loans, and so you had a lot of blue color people who would never go to education beyond high school and suddenly the universities were filled with these veterans who came back and when they got their degree, first of all they went away. They didn't do it in their home village, hometown or the you know the neighborhood in the city. They went away someplace, to the university. They had four years away. They had already been away for three years, three or four years with the service, but with the education being cheap, and then also the home loans. They didn't go back to where they came from. And then that coincided with the interstate highway system. Dan Sulllivan You asked for the interstate. Dean Jackson Right and the suburbs, yeah, yeah, and the suburbs and the interstate highway system. So inner city people moved to the suburbs or they moved to another city and about all the westward growth was towards California, you know, was towards the south Texas, oklahoma, arizona, and so you had that. And then you had air conditioning, and then air conditioning made it possible to have business in really hot places. You know, you could, you could have factories, you could have you could have plants with air conditioning and so that's. and the other thing is I don't include it in my for, but generally these new places were very resistant to unions. Labor union were mainly in the biggest established cities in the east and in the north, but when they got to the south and west they were were not union states. They came much later and so you could pay wages. You know that the unions would not have agreed to, but they with unions weren't there. And then I think it was the fourth one. So we had the GI bill, we had the highway system, we had air conditioning and the fourth one was national TV and that came at 50. So you had the three you had the three networks and they were basically competing for the same audience, competing with the same themes, competing, you know, with the same kind of programming, and I think that totally changed the character of the United States from what it had been Before the Second World War, I think those four things, yeah, I mean you could add everybody would have something else to add to that, but it'd be hard to find four things more central than those four. Dan Sulllivan Yes, I think, and that's so all of those, and even you know, then the yeah that sense of everybody having the same experience. I think the kids now I think you think like if we were to take that, because some of those are infrastructure things right. Dean Jackson That you were, that you're talking about. Well, almost all four of them are infrastructure of one kind or another Communications infrastructure, transportation infrastructure, educational infrastructure. And then you know the air conditioning is. I don't know. That would fall under a technological infrastructure. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, I mean I wonder you know we're in if you take these and kind of like overlay, that's all you know circa right around 1950, all of that in place now that if we take this to today, you know, and I think when you really think about the Gen C, you know 1996 to 2010,. Those kids you know, the oldest of them now are in the workforce and in the early 20s, so it's. But they grew up with an infrastructure that the internet was already established and then the modern internet by the time they were, you know, teenagers, the modern internet, everything was in place and I still think about the. You know that all lives were kind of on that in terms of, you know, youtube, facebook, instagram, now Twitter, and then I don't know whether you've been following threads just got released which is Facebook's sort of Twitter competitor. Dean Jackson And it was the fastest. Dan Sulllivan It's the fastest thing to go to 100 million users. They went to 100 million users in five days, right. Dean Jackson And that's kind of a you know, but I guess they were the same customers. That's what I mean when you start with. You start with. They were Instagram customers who just added another channel. Dan Sulllivan You just start with a billion already and you've got yeah yeah, now you're at 100 million, but those things it's almost like the. I start to see that all of those main platforms tend to now, you know, sort of mimic each other in that you know, whatever, whatever, anybody starts to take a lead everybody oh yeah, we've got that too. So you know TikTok with the short form, endless scrolling videos. You know, between TikTok Reels, youtube Shorts and Instagram stories, you can't really tell which one you're on. It's all that same thing. And I think that when you look at what Threads is trying to do with Twitter because Twitter was kind of unique in a way that it was the 140 character, mostly words and comments, commentary, discussion type of thing the others haven't really yeah. Dean Jackson I would say there's a big fundamental change that is happening right now that probably it will give the newest generation a completely different future, and that is the notion of a global economy is disappearing. Ten years from now, there won't be a global economy and it's already starting to break apart, and that's a function of geopolitical change that is fundamentally different than anything that happened since 1945. You go to conferences and you listen we're going all global. At a certain point we will change over where there's a single global government and borders don't really matter and everything else. That was a bad guess and that was a bad bet. That whole thing was disappearing because it was basically with the agreement of one very powerful country. That would be true. That country has changed its mind. But the other thing is that there's a much better prediction that can be made that a lot of the generation Z won't go to university. They won't go to college because the money is going to be in the trades again. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, and that's what I wonder if the? What I've been wondering about now is what is the relevance of these little You're kind of NFL cities, your MSA cultures kind of thing. I was only had the Canadian experience, but I imagine people who grew up if you live in Chicago, that's got a different vibe than living in Detroit or in Cleveland or in St Louis or Charlotte, north Carolina, all these things. I wonder what the role of these is kind of in the next 25 years, is it? We're coming back? I always remember I don't remember the exact way that you said it, but you talked about the dueling furniture stores or the best furniture store on the street or the best furniture store in town in the state, in the glow in the world that was right back around to the best one. Dean Jackson The best one on the street. Yeah, I haven't really given much thought to that. Dan Sulllivan I don't really know. Dean Jackson But there's an interesting thing with Chicago the Bears, who have been the most downtown of the sports franchise. The White Sox baseball team is on the south side and the Wrigley Field. The Cubs are kind of going towards the wealthy sections, the North Shore, evanston, sort of moving towards Evanston and Lake Forest and those really wealthy cities. But the Bears were right downtown. They were right on the Soldier Field, which is right near the lake. They're leaving. They're going to go out to one of the Northwestern suburbs which is Evanston which one of them, but they'll be easily 25 miles from downtown the basketball team, and I don't think they're in the center city. The basketball and the hockey team I don't think they're center city, but they're losing population. I mean Chicago's downtown is losing. As a matter of fact, I think Toronto's inner city now is bigger than Chicago's inner city, chicago's suburbs are bigger than Toronto and my sense is that the need to be in the most densely part of the city for business reasons has lost its force. And I think that COVID I have a huge impact on that, where people who normally commuted downtown spend a couple of years not commuting downtown and I think they had a chance to figure out maybe there's a different way of my work future than going downtown. Yeah, so I think that COVID, as we go along, as I came with, covid will be seeing year by year as we get further away from had a profound sociological. I think it had a profound economic impact on people where they started planning out a different future that did not include every day, an hour into the city, every night, an hour out. They got those two hours back and they're kind of choosy and picky about whether they want to spend their whole future that way. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, exactly Like that was so normal. I look at growing up in Georgetown and Houghton Hills that was like a normal. Almost everybody in Georgetown commuted. Dean Jackson To go train an hour. That's exactly right. Dan Sulllivan And that was like just a normal, that's just a normal thing, or at the very least they drove to Mississauga or 30 minutes somewhere, Not a lot of indisputable. Dean Jackson So I think that every year the effect of those two lockdown years will be more pronounced. I think it won't go the other way. They say you know, we'll get past COVID and we'll go back to things the way they were. I don't think that's going to happen. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, I agree. Dean Jackson The other big thing is the repatriation of industry and manufacturing back to and I'm talking about the states here, and the US has gone through greater industrial and manufacturing growth in the last three years than it did during the three main years of the Second World War, which was, I mean, it was out of sight how much manufacturing they did. Dan Sulllivan And the industrial plant. Dean Jackson But it's not coming back to the East Coast any of the you know not the old, established New England. It's not going to the Great Lakes states. You know Chicago, buffalo, cleveland, detroit, chicago. You know it's going to places where they have Really cheap land and you can build new TSMC, which is the highest level chip makers in the world from Taiwan. They're just completing a 20,000 empoi chip factory just north of Phoenix. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, and that's the one that they're going to power with the small nuclear. Dean Jackson Well, I'm not sure, that's true. I was just talking to Mike Wanderl and it seems to me that a project like that would be a really good use of your new thing. No. I think they're using their own generators, but they're not nuclear generators. Dan Sulllivan Maybe it was solar that I thought. Do you remember something that they were going to make it? Dean Jackson No, it's not solar. Well, they would use solar for part of it, because they've got a pretty steady sun all year round, but anyway, I don't really know the ins and outs of it. I was just thinking that TSMC, on Taiwan and 100 miles from China, decided that 8,000 miles from China was better. Right, that's funny, and I think the other thing that you're going to see is the Japan set a model about 30 years ago, so Japan was going to take over the world, and then they didn't take over the world. And so remember, in the 1980s we go to movies and that would be about how smart the Japanese were and how stupid the Americans were. And we'd be taking orders from the Japanese. Well, they hit a wall at the end of the 80s and they've been essentially flat economically for the last 36 years. But what they did is they made a very strategic decision. This is companies like Toyota. They made a strategic decision that they have such a falling population. They had the fastest collapsing population in human history up until the Chinese. The Chinese now are losing population faster than any country in history. But what the Japanese sort of at the government level and at the investment level and the actual industrial level made a decision that from now on they would have their factories where their customers were and most of the customers were. And then other I mean the top level customers who were right for the price here items, and so they have moved a large portion of their industrial base to mostly the south of the United States, south Carolina, alabama. Mississippi you know, tennessee, kentucky, but below the Mason-Dixon line, if you know, if you yeah that was the division between, essentially between, the Union and the Confederates. So all the factories are going to the former Confederate States during the Civil War. And and. But they said they voluntarily did that. I mean well, voluntarily is that they were constrained and they said that if we're going to have future and then the money, you know a portion of the money comes back to Japan, but they're higher American. They're hiring, the people who run the factories are American, the people who work in the factories are American and you know they pay taxes in the states and to the country. But my sense is that as we go forward over the next 10 years, there will be a tariff for other countries to sell into the United States. There will be tariffs unless you move your factory to the United States. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, wow, this is, yeah, this is what I wonder now. It's like almost like the, it's almost like the wave kind of thing that the waves are shifting back into you know more. An inward, an inward shift here. Dean Jackson Well, I think I think yeah, I think the central thinking here is we want the supply chains to be guaranteed. Dan Sulllivan Yes, and that makes it if it's all in the fall. Dean Jackson Mexico, the United States, canada, it's all you know. All the rail lines are there, all the highways are there, you know, and they're not enemies of each other. And you know when the when the Canadians nationalized pot. You know marijuana, you knew there wasn't going to be any invasion by Canada and to the United States. Dan Sulllivan Oh, that's so funny. Yeah, yeah, that is funny. Dean Jackson For those of you you know know something about the United States and Canada. That was a joke, I just told you. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, I love that. My favorite Canadians. Dean Jackson Placid Canadians got more placid. Dan Sulllivan Yeah exactly. That's so funny this was. I did hear a comedian talking about the how our friendly neighbors to the north, the Canadians, are just so chill. He's a, let's face it. Our salvation army could kick their butt. Dean Jackson Well here's what they just had NATO exercises Canada's part of NATO and they don't have enough working equipment that they could participate. Dan Sulllivan Wow, that's something, isn't it? Well, there you go. Dean Jackson No, I mean probably you know I mean looking at it from Canadian standpoint. I kind of understand it because nothing's going to happen in Canada that would in any way be seen as a threat to the United States and the American military would be all over it. Dan Sulllivan Oh absolutely yeah, but talk about one of the best, like just that's why, that's why I look at my Canadian citizenship as a gift. You know, I look at it as something that's very rare and you know, you just look at it's why Canada is always amongst the top places to live in the world. You know, yeah, it's just got so much, so much going for it. Dean Jackson Yeah, I mean this started with Generation Z conversation you know, yeah, started, you know, really started. You know we experienced growing up where we were in one way. But I suspect that somebody who was born in the late end of the 90s and is in their 20s and you know their take on the world would be radically different from what our take was. Dan Sulllivan That's. What I'm saying is that it feels like they wouldn't have that same sense of identity or association with their click. You know with that they were, because I think it was. It's less and less relevant in your daily life. Dean Jackson So the chances are that, first of all, that you would, for example, have to go in the military. I mean, I was born in the 40s, and when I got to the 60s and the Vietnam War started and I got my draft notice, I didn't give it a thought. Well, you know, I had one, two, three. I had three older brothers who had already served, I mean, they volunteered and mine was conscription. I never gave it a thought because all the growing up, all the adults I talked to, had been in the military, so it didn't seem like yeah it was kind of like a tax. You know, it was two years of your life and it was kind of like a tax, but you know and there was no thought. But then you had the anti-war period during this. But I was already back from the military when that all started and you know I didn't really pay any attention to it. I mean, it wasn't, it didn't concern me at all. And you know and you didn't get into discussions going through college that you had been in the military. You know it wasn't, it wasn't a popular topic. Right yeah so yeah, I think that's where the sharp change happened. I think it was the late 60s anti-war protests and then yeah a lot of protests. I remember Little Abner it was a cartoon series Little Abner, al Cap and he had he was reflecting. In the late 60s, a protest group called SWINE it was the acronym was SWINE Students. Wow, they indignant about nearly everything. That's true, that's great, and they run the country. Now they're in their 60s and 70s. Dan Sulllivan Well, the size of the, the size of the SWINE. You know, army now is huge because it can be collective on the internet, cancel culture. Dean Jackson Well, and what we call woke used to be called yeah, no, I mean the. I'd say there's a you can chase, you can easily track the genealogy, the ideological genealogy of the present woke population and it. But it started with the swine population in the 1960s, you know. But students wildly indignant about nearly everything, yeah. Dan Sulllivan I think that's something you know. That's so great. Dean Jackson Yeah, yeah Well you know I mean, if you're not creative. Opposition gives you a lot of focus and identity. Being against something can give you a lot of energy. You know, and yeah, but it doesn't get you a high paycheck. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, this is. Yeah, I wonder now the whole, this whole like notion of Work and what, how that's going to shape this generation? I haven't gotten to that part in the in the magazine. Yeah yeah, but I mean it certainly. You know there's a different level of Apparently. Dean Jackson They're saying that we're, that it is a very entrepreneurial group which is well, there as far as I mean Just by observation, because we have I would say we certainly have 20 of our Team members out of 130. Might be more than that I have encountered, but they seem like worker bees to me. Dan Sulllivan Okay, interesting. Dean Jackson Yeah, they work real hard, they work real hard, they, you know they show up on time, they do what they say they're going to do, they finish what they start and they play. They say please and thank you, and you know, and so I have a very positive take on those individuals who we've hired, you know, and I mean we have. There's five steps to get higher-deck coach. So there's a filtering and a screening that goes on. Yeah, it was one thing that we had a lot of millennials, for you know we had a lot of one. Yeah, some lot of them are still with us and I asked the person most in charge of hiring For a coach. I said is there anything you're doing different with these people? Because I don't see, I don't detect any of the attitudes that are supposedly Millennial attitudes. And she said well, we have one more question we asked them and I said and it's if you come to work as strategic coach, what do you think you're entitled to? Dan Sulllivan and if they answer the question. Dean Jackson They're gone. So funny. I like that if they even know what the word entitled means. Yeah, they disqualified, they disqualified themselves. Yeah, oh that's funny. Yeah. Dan Sulllivan Well, I didn't. I didn't ask you, dan, but how did free-thone go this week? I know everybody was in Gathered in Chicago. Dean Jackson Well, I had one of my periodic last-minute creative changes, where what was the planned out workshop on Friday was completely changed on Monday. Okay, okay, and what I did was I just got a feel for it that something More is needed, and also, we had a guest speaker. For the first time, we had a guest speaker and we had. Andre Norman. We had Andre Norman come in. And I gave Andre script in the term in the form of a fast filter and I said Andre, we're just going to talk about and we're going to divide your life into three parts. When you were a gang leader in Boston you're the boss. And when you got into Prison, and you were the prison boss. And now you're out and collaborating with Joe Polish and you do crisis Intervention with individuals and groups across the country. But you're the boss of doing that and I like you just to walk us through your three entrepreneurial stages and, looking back, things you might have done differently now from your. You know, from the. You know the advantage of backward perspective. What would you have done differently? But we had to tick to. We had two videos and there was about a Two-minute tick tock where he's just telling the story about how he went through five guard stations and got into the kitchen to ask for a hamburger and a cheese, a cheeseburger, and was confronted by the warden, and then let the warden know who actually ran the prison and and that he had no issue getting through five gates and getting into the kitchen, but the Warden was being an issue, and that the warden had a choice of how he was going to handle this and the warden at the end goes over and says give him a second cheeseburger. I make him do yeah, exactly and then at the end it was just the the trailer for the movie that's been made on Andre. So we that was sort of neat. One was about two minutes, the other one was about two minutes at the end, but it was a terrific hour, so that that that was a special event in the workshop. But what I did was I drew a diagram and it's an upward arrow, you know, goes up, and it's broken down into eight arrows and there are the decades of my life. So next year I complete my eighth decade eighth arrow and I just observed that my Creativity and productivity since I was 70 was greater than the 70 previous years I've created and produced more in the last ten years. So I had them all do that. They had to draw it out. I just drew it on the whiteboard and and then you lay down, you know everything. But just under the category of creativity and productivity, and that I had, I bet I had ten people at the end of the First hour because they just drew it out and then they went into breakout groups and then we had the general Discussion, let's say the first hour and a half. They said we could go home right now. This was worth the trip, and I said, well, that's good. And I had a prepared sheet which said what their best ever decade was going to be ahead. So mine was a bit easy because I'm going to be right at the end of a calendar decade, my chronological. Not a calendar decade, but my chronological. So I'll be 80 next May and so it'll be 80 to 90, it'll be 20, 24, 20, 20, 23. I says, now, choose that one. And I said you may have it start right away, you may have it start in a couple of years, you know, but you're going to now start them too. Yeah, start creating the decade. That will be your best ever. But you've seen what you've done with the best one in the past and we did that. But we're going to drag, break it into two parts. One of them is Creativity times, productivity. That'll be one side and the other side will be fitness times, health. Because I said, you know, and right now, at 80, most they get some people born in 19 in the United States, people born in 1944, 61% of them are dead, 61 and so. So you know, you got to put a bigger emphasis on your physical energy. And so I said and you won't plan for something bigger in the future if you're not in great shape, and you will not plan for greater shape in the future if you're not becoming more Creative and productive. And this was a huge, this is a huge new, a new time tool, a new time tool. And it went. It was the whole day just that thing, yeah, we just, and then they picked three things that were most important and then they did a triple play on it. So I think we had about we had about three breakout groups and then general discussions and we had a party the night before house and on the Monday, where you have the 10 times workshop, is just free zone people in that 10 times. There's no, nobody else in the 10 times and that really worked. And then there were people who were going to do their 10 times the day after Free zone and I had. We had another party at our house that night, and that's 10 times a week of parties. Yeah, but it's all. You know. All the success and achievement Is strictly for the parties. Dan Sulllivan That's exactly right. I like that. Dean Jackson Yeah, and being Having a seven in your print, you would appreciate parties. Yes, exactly, I love it. They're happy. Yeah, enjoying life and having fun. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, I love that. Well, I'm a guy, so we're gonna go through that same thing on you so you'll do that on. Dean Jackson You'll do that on the zoom yeah. Dan Sulllivan I like it. That's next week I think that's next week. Dean Jackson I think that's next week, is that next? Week no it's this week. Dan Sulllivan This week, I think one of these guys. Dean Jackson It has to be this week because we're at the cottage for two weeks. Oh yeah, there you go. I think it's the starting next week, yeah, but it went really well. Yeah, yeah yeah, so, yeah so anyway, that's, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it now Did? Dan Sulllivan I saw in one of the I got the prep package and stuff and I saw something that made my pupils dilate and I think it was some indication of some free zone Expansion into Toronto. Dean Jackson Yeah, what we want to do because it's getting big. Now we have 91 in free zone and so we want to add another available workshop day during the quarter and there's been a growing interest from people in Canada who would do it if it were in Toronto, and so we've looked at the date. It'll start in early. It'll start in early 24, 2024 and but there has to be enough interest that we would have a good size, and by good size We'd have more than 20 people there either new or existing and and but To say the other bother of going to Chicago, we're still going to charge you an American dollars. Dan Sulllivan Right on. Dean Jackson Yeah, so it's great we're not having that deeper one. Yeah, though. Dan Sulllivan This is great. I think it's so nice to see it expanding. I mean, the Our group in in Palm Beach was really something. I mean it's really a great energy. Dean Jackson Yeah, and next year the summits back in Palm Beach too. Dan Sulllivan I like that yeah. Dean Jackson Yeah, we have, well, the four seasons. You there's. You know, there's nothing you have to Think about with the four seasons right you know I mean very instant response and anything you want. That's great yeah man, we're going to have our first big global conference in Nashville Next year and it gets in May, first week of May, so be today, and it's everybody who's involved and we'll have out clients come. So we're shooting for probably 1500 1600 people and we're going to break out sessions and this is a global overall strategic coach yeah. Yeah, so people come from overseas for it, but yes, you know, a lot of it is mingling and you know, and yeah whining and dining and everything but and I have nothing to do with this I was told it was going to happen, so you know you're just relaying the news. Yeah. I'm usually the last one to know. And and yeah, and people say boy, how do you find time for all this stuff? And they support what stuff? And they said well, you know moving the other coaches up to ten times. I said that was 15 minutes on my part to do the whole. I simply announced that after 2023 I wasn't going to do anymore. After 2022 I wasn't going to do any more Workshops. Right, well, how we gonna? Huh, I said my security clearance is not high enough to be involved. Dan Sulllivan Oh, yeah, we're nothing but rave reviews for Chad. Dean Jackson Yeah, chad, that was really good. Yeah, and in fairness to you know, in fairness to you know someone else, they had to split their tension between free zone and ten times people on the same day and that stuff and but Chad just got the pure, the purebred lambs. Dan Sulllivan Oh man, that's so funny. The purebred yeah, the Mayflower yeah that is funny. Well, I you know what feel I feel good about is. I have been. I was the Mayflower of the ten times. Oh yeah made me voyage and Mayflower of free zone. That's funny. Dean Jackson Yeah. Yeah well, you know it, you know, I mean there's. You know. See, my whole approach is that you don't know how good your team is and you don't know how good the program is Until you're not involved in any of it. Yeah, yeah, so it's. Why don't the people say, well, all this free time? And I say they said don't you worry about the company. And I says, actually it's on my free days. Then I find out how good my company is or as a result of my free days. They can't phone us. We don't phone them or zoom them, we don't, and they have to sort things out on their own. Dan Sulllivan And that's and they do they do when they grow, did you? How many days did you who up with the? You know, letting Without doing the ten times? Dean Jackson prepping workshops in about 60 days yeah. Yeah, and then you've already. Some of those with oh yeah, I'm Programs Less. Dan Sulllivan Active. I don't think I'm any right. Dean Jackson I'm just doing different things, but the big one for the last five years and on Tuesday will be five years Was the no television for five years and I got back about four thousand hours Over the five year, about 800 hours. So you know, I Truthfully I kind of worked like ten hour days when I'm working, so that was 880 years and 880 days a year and then I got about of work time and then I got 60. So the big, I had a big return of Days available for doing new things, and you know. So it's that stuff works, you know. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, absolutely Well, I've been really enjoying and expanding on my adventures in Dean Landia. Dean Jackson Yeah. Dan Sulllivan Let's screen time, more team time. I'll tell you there is so much yeah, there's so much more compelling things going on in Dean Landia than in Netflix or on YouTube or, you know, tiktok, any of those things that take up all that. Dean Jackson well, you can be more of a coin you can be. More of a cone is, sir you know. Dan Sulllivan But you know, I mean. Dean Jackson I watch YouTube, but basically half of it is just watching Peter Zion's latest take on something, and that's Never more than about seven or eight minutes and but you begin to realize, you know that if you're truly a An entrepreneur who's expanding freedom, time, money, relationship and purpose Is that there's a lot going on the world that doesn't, or should shouldn't, really concern you. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, I think that's really the thing of being able to know that this you can let go of a lot of them, right? That's really I think that when you, when you really come to the fact that there's no way to keep up with it, there's no like all the content that's out there, it's kind of like you're saying about swimming in the ocean you know you miss a lot of it, but you really you know it was. As long as you get a good swim and that's all. Yeah, yeah, but the other thing is. Dean Jackson People say, well, how do you keep up with the world? And I said, if I knew what the world was, maybe I would have an answer. But I says our world is basically a measurable number of Relationships that you have, you know. You know, I mean people say, what do you think about what's going on in Africa? And I said, well, not very much. And I mean I don't really think about it that much. And because I've got some clients I have a client clients in Botswana, I've got clients in Ghana. You know there's some clients there and we interact and I know about them. But Africa itself not really much. And but people, I think what's happened over the last 40 years? We've had a sizable number of people who went to college with the and came out of the college with the Mission of changing the world. Yeah, but they don't know how to change the tire, you know. So they have theoretical, this theoretical sort of vision, but they don't really have any practical skills. And, and I think, as the world becomes less united and less Interconnected which I see happening already and it's going to happen more so over the next 20 years it strikes me that people will become more practical in their focus and they'll be more local. I'm not local in the sense that they're dealing with real relationships and they're creating things and producing things with real relationships. And they're not buying into a lot of fantasies about what's going on in the world and that this is generation Z. I mean we started with this Topic, but I think they're going to turn out to be more practical than the two or three generations ahead of them. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, and they're much more there. You know they're technically fluent. I mean that's certainly a thing that they're. I think, especially now the younger ones that are going to you know they're going to grow up with their Chat GPT sidekick, you know, always available to them. I think it's going to be amazing. Dean Jackson I think it's, yeah, I think it's. There's some changes in the wind, uh-huh. Anyway, got a jump, oh, by the way always fun as a pick up on a previous thing, I checked with Julia Waller about the strength finder and we do not have your numbers. Dan Sulllivan She sent me an email. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it today. Actually, I'm gonna Okay, yeah, good the test, but I'm just gonna send you. Dean Jackson I have it on a draft and I'll just punch the button and you know. The thing is that you take your top five strength finders and you plop them into the fast filter. Perfect, the fast filter has five success criteria. Dan Sulllivan Yeah, I'm gonna just put down whatever your five are yeah and yeah it's gotta, it's got a neat outcome. Dean Jackson When you do that, I like it. I can't wait. Dan Sulllivan Well, I will. Okay, back are we, are we next? Dean Jackson week, next week, and then I won't at the cottage, I'm just gonna cottage, I'm just gonna cottage things. Dan Sulllivan Okay, great, so no podcast next week. Okay. Dean Jackson No, next week we have it. Dan Sulllivan I haven't left next week I'm here on Sunday, so would okay yeah yeah, if you would be so inclined. Dean Jackson Yeah, of course, always. Okay, okay, okay, then, okay, bye, okay, bye, bye.

Rohkem kui kolm aastat tagasi käis Marten Palu Pärnu GameCanist rääkimas Overstepist. Nüüdseks aga on juhtunud ühtteist ja kogu mäng on saanud uue mootori, välimuse ja nime ning GameCanil on ambitsioonid teha Pärnust Baltikumi mängutööstuse keskus. Aga idee segada omavahel kokku Tony Hawk'ilik trikitamine ja tulistamine säilib, ning uue nimega Contenders: Arena ootab Steamis proovijaid https://store.steampowered.com/app/2445510/Contenders_Arena/ Saade salvestatud originaalis ka Covidi kõrghetkel, 2020 mais, seega see varjutab hoogsalt ka kogu uudisteosa ja muud saadet, mis praeguseks huvitav ajakapsel. Uued saated tagasi juba Augustis.  Kogu Puhata ja Mängida arhiivi leiad siit: http://www.puhatajamängida.ee/arhiiv

Most of us are very used to the concept of 'Use By Dates' or 'Best Before Dates' when we go shopping but many commercial outdoor foods also come with these labels. Due to COVID I ended up with a large number of 'out of date' meals and thought that I'd see how they went. Are these labels just cautionary recommendations or can you just ignore them?  www.australianhiker.com.au   Australian Hiker can also be found on our various social media platforms Australian Hiker Facebook Australian Hiker Instagram Australian Hiker LinkedIn Australian Hiker Twitter Australian Hiker Pintrest Australian Hiker Youtube

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcastCompetition ends July 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.  Show references:  https://www.alnwickgarden.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/ianjmcallister/https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2023-05-24/worlds-biggest-play-park-set-to-open Ian McAllister is the Strategic Head of Marketing and Communications at The Alnwick Garden and Lilidorei.  His route into attraction marketing wasn't an obvious one – from not joining the RAF (based mainly on eyesight and petulance) he dabbled in recruitment ( based mainly on proximity to his flat) then television (based mainly on flatmate work envy).  He manages a team of marketers who deliver all marketing, PR and communications to these two attractions based in Northumberland. Transcriptions: Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. In today's episode I speak with Ian McAllister, Strategic Head of Marketing and Communications at The Alnwick Garden.Ian shares with us the magical story behind Lilidorei, logistics of creating a play structure over 26 meters tall, snot ice cream, free Fridays and the impact this will have on the local area and children. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue. Kelly Molson: Ian, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for coming to join me. Ian McAllister: No problem. Kelly Molson: Let's start with some icebreakers, shall we? Ian and I, we had a little pre podcast chat a few weeks ago and we established that we're both from sunny old Essex. This could end up quite messy, really, couldn't it? Because I tend to whenever I'm speaking to my Essex kinfolk, my accent goes, very Essex. This might get messy. Ian McAllister: The good thing is, living up here, people don't know my real accent, but once they hear that, I'm sure that it'll come out. Kelly Molson: They will after this, Ian. Right, okay, icebreakers. I want to know, topical, what's the worst Essex nightclub that you've ever been in? Ian McAllister: Tots, Southend. But it was so bad that I used to go every Friday. It was bad for the sticky floors and for the people that were there and for the music they played and everything about it was terrible. But every Friday I would still go up there. I don't know why.Kelly Molson: So bad. It's so good. I can remember driving there from my part of Essex and going out Tots. Someone broke my big toe into Tots. Literally, like, stamped on my big toe and broke it. Ian McAllister: Do you remember? There was a place called Ritzes, which I think was in Romford, and went there one night, and this was back in the day, where people thought if you were wearing trainers, you were going to cause trouble, so you weren't allowed to wear trainers. And a mate of mine, Paul Mayo. I had two good friends in Essex, Paul Mayo and Ross Gherkin, so they were the three of us. But Paul Mayo went up to the club and they wouldn't let me say trainers. So he left the queue and went around the corner, took his shoes off and took his black socks off, put his trainers back on and his black socks over his trainers, and they just let him straight in. Kelly Molson: Wow. Ian McAllister: Yeah. Which made Moonwalking brilliant, because he had a really good sock that he could moonwalk across the dance floor. Kelly Molson: That is ridiculous. That's ridiculous. So sorry, we just need to go back to your friend's names as well. Mayo and Gherkin. Are you joking? Ian McAllister: Mayo and Gherkin? No. So, I mean, I was always Mac. So I was always Ian Mac. Then there was Mayo and Gherkin. So they were the three of us that used to kick around together in Essex. Kelly Molson: That is chaos already. Ian McAllister: There you go. Opening question. Kelly Molson: This is an ethics thing as well, right? Everybody has nicknames, don't they? You know the Gavin and Stacy thing, where you got Smithy and what? Chinese Allen. That's the thing. That is so Essex, it's ridiculous. Ian McAllister: My nickname for ages was I wasn't a good looking chap growing up. And I had a brace, a demi wave, and I had these big reactor like glasses and I don't know if you've ever seen the National Lampoons European vacation, but the sun was called Rusty Grizzwald. So my friend Gary decided that I was just called Rusty, so he still calls me it to this day. So I'm still just Rusty. Kelly Molson: Oh, God, that's so weird, because my next question was going to be, if you ever been told you look like someone famous, who was it? Ian McAllister: Yeah, but that's not a positive thing. Kelly Molson: No. I wasn't expecting Rusty from National Lampoons to come up. Ian McAllister: I mean, lots of people to try and compare themselves to you, like some Brad Pitt and George Clooney, whereas I'm going for 15 year old Rusty Grizzled. Kelly Molson: Humble. I think that's quite humble, isn't it? Right, final one. I feel like the ice is well and truly broken, melted. What is your best scar story? Ian McAllister: My best scar story is a very recent one. Last year on New Year's Day, I took the kids for a lovely walk to our local woods with the dog. And me being me, I challenged them both to climb a tree. And it was a tree that was like one of these trees that's too good not to climb, do you know what I mean? It was really big branches and big trunk. So I've got twins, 14 year old twins, a boy and a girl. So my daughter was like a whippet and she went up the tree and then my son, with a bit of encouragement, went up the tree and he got his foot wedged in, like the V of the branch, about seven and a half, eight foot up, so he couldn't get out. Ian McAllister: So I climbed up behind him and I held onto a branch either side of him. I said, "Right, all you got to do is just wiggle your foot a little bit". So he obviously didn't hear a word I said. He yanked his foot out, so we both fell out the tree. So I grabbed onto him and he landed on me. And as he landed, I heard ankle snap. So I'm at the top of a woods, probably a mile into the woods. So the kids that week before have been at Scouts and they learned about what three words. So we had to phone an ambulance and they did the what three words and this, that and the other. Ian McAllister: So the ambulance had to then he couldn't drive, so you had to push the stretcher for a mile, pretty much up an incline to get to me. Had to take a breather because it was so far up, put me on the stretcher, but then the ambulance had to drop, so it's just me and the kids that live here with the dog. So the ambulance then had to drop the dog and my kids at my house before they took me to hospital. So turned out I completely broken my ankle, so I had to go for an operation. And I had a metal plate pulse, ligament and wiring all around my ankle. Ian McAllister: So I've got a treat of a scar on my ankle that they also cut through two nerves, so I also can't feel from a nerve down from the little toe, from a knee down to the little toe at the minute. Kelly Molson: I feel like we're going to have to put a warning on this podcast episode, if anyone's like a slightly queasy disposition. Wow. I was not expecting that. Ian McAllister: Yeah, it's a lovely story, isn't it? I think I've learned the lesson. I made a blue plaque on photoshop about Ian fell here and I went back to the tree afterwards and pinned it on the tree. Kelly Molson: It's a special moment. Ian McAllister: That tree will always be in my memory. Kelly Molson: But well done, your children, on learning the skills to get you out of a very tricky situation. Ian McAllister: Yeah, it was great, but they loved it because they got riding an ambulance, so their Snapchat stories were filled up that day with pictures of them and the dog in an ambulance on a muddy New Year's Day. Kelly Molson: Great story. Thank you for sharing. I feel like we've started the podcast on high. Ian McAllister: We can't really go any lower than this, can we? Kelly Molson: Not really, no. Your unpopular opinion, Ian. I dread to think what this might be. Ian McAllister: Had a few and I was trying to think which one would upset the least people. So I had a few. I was trying to think which one upset the least people. So this one's cake. And I hate cake. And I've always hated cake, really dislike cake. And I think people say to me, "what is it you don't like about cake?". And I think I've narrowed it down to the taste, the texture, the smell and the look. Because just everything about a cake, I don't like. So when it comes to birthdays, the kids obviously get me a birthday cake because they can eat it themselves, but I just don't like cake. I've got a bit of a funny not so much now, but I had a funny food thing. I'm sorry in advance. I didn't eat yellow food for about six months. Ian McAllister: It was anything yellow, even to the point where if I got a packet of M&Ms, I wouldn't eat the yellow ones. Kelly Molson: Can I just ask what age you were? Was this 30? Ian McAllister: Probably worse than that? It's about 35. Like my late 30s. Genuinely, genuinely developed an aversion to yellow food. So my friend Steven, who's head of HR at work, he went through a phase of thinking to try and reeducate me. So every Friday he'd go through Steven's adventures in food. It was all the food that I probably should have eaten by the time I was, like, 40 years and hadn't. So things like sushi or porridge. Every Friday he'd bring in something and it would be a chart, like a reward chart. And he'd put a little sticker on if I liked it or didn't like it. Just because people don't know I'm a 47 year old man with two children. Kelly Molson: Oh, God. And have you eaten a banana since? That's what I need to know. Ian McAllister: Yeah, since I started re eating yellow food, I'm all over it. I like a banana, like a bit of pineapple. Cheese is great. We just have the argument because people would say to me, and this was my bugbear, and they get really irritated with this. It's a what about chips? Chips aren't yellow. They're like a beige. So chips were allowed. Kelly Molson: Okay. And pasta as well. They're all in the beige category rather than yellow. Okay. Ian McAllister: Yeah. So can you imagine presenting me with a yellow cake? Yellow cake? That'd be my idea of h***. Kelly Molson: That's your worst nightmare, isn't it? Jaffa Cake. How do you sit about that? Is that a cake or a biscuit? Ian McAllister: But food of choice would always be a chocolate hobnob. No question. Kelly Molson: Great biscuit. Yeah. In the fridge. Ian McAllister: Great biscuit. Crunch. Good for the dunk. Always in the fridge, yeah. Chocolate. What do you think about this chocolate? Does it live in your cupboard or in your fridge? Kelly Molson: Fridge. I like a crunch. I like it to go crunch and then I like that it then melts in your mouth. It's like two different sensations in one. People will argue about this. This is not an unpopular popular opinion, by the way, but people will not be happy about this at all. Ian McAllister: No, but I mean, the people that aren't happy with it are wrong. Kelly Molson: They are. Agreed. Oh, my goodness, what a start for this podcast. Okay, how did an Essex boy end up in Northumberland? Tell me a little bit about your background, because you're not from attractions background at all, are you? You come from a completely different sector. Ian McAllister: Yeah, when I got married, which since divorced, but when I got married, my best man suggested it was witness protection. That's what kind of brought me 350 miles north. But the fact was I was working, I'm from Essex, as we've previously mentioned, and I then went to university in Surrey. I went to Kingston and I was working just locally, really, just in pubs and clubs. And I went downstairs to my flat and it was a redeployment, so I thought, it's time to get a proper job. And it was literally under my flat and I ended up working there, mainly because it was under my flat and it took about 10 seconds to commute to it. So I spent a bit of time in recruitment and at the time I was living with two flatmates weirdly, both called Marcus. Ian McAllister: So Marcus One and Marcus Two both worked in TV. One worked, I think Channel Five and One was a BBC or ITV. And I kept telling how good their jobs were and how great their life was, and I thought, "Well, you know what, can't beat them, got to join them". So I did actually beat them. So I wrote to MTV with a really cocky letter saying how much it be their big mistake if they didn't recruit me and this and the other. So I went in for my interview and the guy said, I've got you in because you're either really good or really cocky. And I don't know which one it is. So eventually they gave me a job. So I worked in media in London and I think I was there for two years. Ian McAllister: I just got sick of the rat race and it was just the commute to London. It was an hour each way and I was fed up of it, and I was fed up with the people and I was fed up of the busyness. And I met my then wife, who is from up here, but she had a flat in Edinburgh. I just thought, "You know what, I've got no real commitments down here". I don't have any kids or pets or any of that sort of stuff. So I just chose to order and we moved to Edinburgh and I kind of flipped around in recruitment and odds and ends, moved to the north and set up a property company. So were renting properties to students. Ian McAllister: Then I went to work for a marketing company and then I ended up working where I do now, The Alnwick Garden part time doing marketing and then just kind of worked my way up from there. I couldn't remember what the question was. Was it your background? Kelly Molson: Yeah, you answered it well. Yeah. Well done. Ian McAllister: Thanks. Definitely didn't come from tourism, but I kind of came from marketing kind of sales. And I think I've always been one of these people that might be clear by now that could just talk. Kelly Molson: That's coming across. Definitely getting that on this episode. But I like that you sound like someone who makes their own opportunities in life, which I like. You just go out and get what you want and what's going to fit for you. Tell us a little bit about Alnwick Garden because we're going to talk a little bit about something attached to Alnwick Garden. But Alnwick Gardens itself is quite spectacular. Think it dates back is it 1996? It dates back to is that when. Ian McAllister: It was originally about 1890s. We can date it back to. So it was the original garden kitchen garden for the Alnwick Castle. So it was throughout the two World Wars, it was what fed all the local farmers and the local community and this, that and the other. So come the 90s is when the Duchess of Northumberland, who lives in the castle, was married to the Duke. That's when she took it on as a bit of a project. And she got in some designers from, I think Belgium called Vertz Design. So it's a Vertz design garden and she took it over as a garden and she always wanted it to be she always said it was going to be a stage for people to do whatever they want in, so we can put on events. Ian McAllister: We've had random things, like we've had mixed martial arts in the garden and then we've had Peppa Pig characters coming in. So it's a real variety of things that we do in the garden. But, yeah, so it's been open for 20 odd years now. We're a charity, so we're just about celebrating the 20th year of becoming a charity. So, yeah, the Alnwick Garden itself is a garden, as you'd expect. It's got world's largest Taihaku cherry orchard outside of Japan, got Poison Garden, it's got the world's largest treehouse, which is a restaurant. It's got all these kind of unusual things that you wouldn't necessarily put in, like an RHS garden or a queue garden type place. And it's a great big open space that we market, people come and we do weird events in. Kelly Molson: So it's quite special in its own right, isn't it? But then, about twelve years ago, Jane Percy, the Duchess of Northumberland, she had another idea, didn't she? And that's what we're going to talk about today. Do you all get a little bit worried when she says, "I've got this idea?". Because this one's been a pretty mental one, hasn't it? Spectacularly mental one. Ian McAllister: Yeah. It's kind of that first glimmer of, "Oh, God, what's it going to be now with the backup of the thing is that when she has an idea, she sees it through". And I say this, I know a lot of people chuck this phrase around loosely, and I don't mean it this at all. She's a visionary, because she has these completely off the wall ideas, but has then got the determination and the team behind her to actually see them through. So the new project being the biggie, which has been years in the making and years in the planning, and I'm sure do you want to introduce it or do you want me to say what it is? Kelly Molson: Well, what do you do it. The world's biggest children's play park. Ian McAllister: Yeah. So it's called Lilidorei, which every single thing in it is from her head. And she's got this really creative outlook on life, and she's then pulls in the right people to kind of bring them to life. So she imagined this place where kids could just be away from technology, where they could play and actually play like we used to when were little. And we'd go out making dens and kind of making up our own stories. And it's called Lilidorei,. So the concept of the place is that it's a Lilidorei, village and there's nine clans that live in this village and all of the clans worship Christmas. So you've got good clans and you've got bad clans. Ian McAllister: And it's weird talking about this in a normal way now, and I've seen construction staff talk about this, and it feels weird to be saying things like the elves and the fairies and the pixies. But it got to the point when were building where you'd see the big construction workers and the joiners fags in their mouth, talking about pixies houses and fairies and elves. But the concept is that some of the clans are really good, like the fairies and the pixies, and then some are a bit more troublesome, like the goblins and the hobgoblins and the trolls. But at Christmas time, they all come together to worship Christmas. So whilst it's Christmas themed, it's not Christmas all year, apart from the gift shop, which is fully Christmas at every time. Ian McAllister: They can buy a ball tomorrow if you want, but we've also got the world's largest play structure. So the place structure was built by a company called MONSTROM, who are based in Denmark. And it's one of these things that's got to be seen to believed, which makes marketing it quite tricky because you can't really feel it until you stood underneath it. But local landmark, the angel of the north, is always a good point of reference. So our play structure is 6 meters taller than the angel of the north. And there's a slide from the top, so it's a 26 meters high structure and there's a slide that comes from 20 meters up. Ian McAllister: But to get to this slide, you go around this really convoluted system of walkways and corridors and climbing up uncomfortable spaces and squeezing through things and climbing up nets, and that's just part of it. The rest of it is all these clan houses. So it's a really fascinating place. Kelly Molson: It's amazing, isn't it, that all of this came out of her head? So I watched the ITV, did a publication on your launch, which was it was only a couple of weeks ago, wasn't it, that it opened? The presenter of the snippet, he went up the slide and came down it and he was talking it through and he was saying, 26 meters. And I was like, "Yeah, that's quite high, isn't it?". But you can't really grasp when someone says that. To me, I couldn't really kind of grasp what the height of 26 meters actually looked like. So when you said that comparison that you've just given about the angel of the north, that's really big. Ian McAllister: But there's no point. It's all enclosed. So, like, you've got open netting and this and other but there's nowhere that kids can actually fall off, if you like. So I think kids, it tests their bravery. It's handy for us from an insurance point of view, health and safety, certainly, but kids like, test themselves. So you'll see them start the session and they'll just be on the little swings at the bottom or on the little spinny mushrooms, and then by the end of the session, you see them at the top running around like it's no one's business, just testing bravery. I think that's the big thing. Kelly Molson: Yeah. And I love the idea that it opens your imagination. You can be any part of that story. You've got that underlying story of the clans and that they worship Christmas, but then you make your own part of that story to go with it, and based on where you interact and where you go and where you climb or what houses you go into and all of those kind of things. It is pure magic, isn't it? Ian McAllister: It is. And we've got a team of people that work. They're called secret keepers. So they're sitting in their outfits and costumes, but they're really extravagantly dressed with feathers in their hats and all sorts. Their job is almost to facilitate the play. So it was almost a marketer's dream when I started off because we couldn't really talk about what it was because people didn't understand until it was built, couldn't see it. So I came up with a concept, which is the most lazy marketing you'll ever think of and the whole tagline which is carried through is, what's your story? So really what we're doing is we're encouraging people to make their own narrative and to make their own story, which saves me the job for a start, but also we don't want to dictate that. Ian McAllister: Well, that clan looks like this because you can't see the clans, you can see the houses and you can imagine how they are, but you can't actually see anything. So when you get there, it's all brought together by this immersive sound we've got. It's like a million quids worth of sound system for each clan. House has got its own immersive sound system that kind of gives you implications or ideas as to what that clan might be up to or what's happening inside the house. So you can look into their house window and you can see how it's all set up. So it kind of starts to build this picture and then the secret keepers are there to encourage that with the kids and, "What do you think they look like? And could you hear that sort of noise?". Ian McAllister: And it gives this underlying narrative for every kid that comes, is obviously going to leave with a different picture of what a particular clan or a particular circumstance is like. Kelly Molson: That's amazing. So you don't have the characters. They never see what the goblins look like, for instance. They have to make all of that upload in their own minds. Ian McAllister: Yeah, I mean, we've got this sort of narrative in the background. We've got an idea of what Duchess has imagined the Clans to look like or the Clans to do, or the Clans to kind of be like. But we never tell the kids this. It's all about provoking thought and provoking story. There was books that I used to read when I was a kid, and they would choose your own adventure books, and it was kind of you make your own adventure. So every even if one kid came to Lilidorei, five times, they might have a completely different experience each time just because of their imagination and the sort of stuff that the secret keepers have fed them, if you like. Kelly Molson: I love that. While we're talking about secret keepers, you've got ahead of Play, haven't you, Nathan? I don't know any other organisations or attractions that have got ahead of Play. How did that kind of come about? Ian McAllister: So to give me his full name, it's Nathan Bonk.Kelly Molson: Excellent name. Ian McAllister: Nathan Bonk, he's come over from America specifically to organise the play and the secret keepers and this. So that's his kind of creation, if you like, in conjunction with the Duchess. So he was meeting with the duchess virtually daily to make sure he's on the right lines, and she was happy with what he was doing, but to kind of put an extra element of weirdness into the story, which in case we haven't had enough weirdness in the podcast already in the Garden going back two or three years, I'm friends with a guy called Stewart who's the reigning Mr. Gay World, and he's only reigning because they disbanded the competition after he finished it. So he kept title. He's kept that. So he got in touch to say that he wanted somewhere to host Mr. Gay England, which is like a pride initiative. Ian McAllister: And it's not just a catwalk, it's education and it's exams, and then the winner of it ends up representing the gay community to go to Parliament and lobby Parliament and speak in schools and this and the other. So I said, well, the best place, really, if you think of the most sort of unusual place that you could think of in a really rural town where there aren't many people of any persuasion, would be Alnwick. So we put it in the middle of the garden. The cat walks right down the middle of the garden, and we've rebranded that entire day, which we're doing again this year, Gay Day. So what we do is we have Gay Day, and it's everything. We've got market traders, LBTQ+ friendly market traders and face painters, and we do trails and all sorts of things. Ian McAllister: So anyway, last year we had Mr. Gay Europe and Nathan's friends with Stewart. So Nathan came over to help with the competition. Mr. Norway had COVID, so couldn't turn up. So there were one person short. So Nathan ended up weirdly representing America in the Mr. Gay Europe competition. Kelly Molson: Wow. Ian McAllister: If you get to know Nathan, as you'd understand, he's always got an outfit of two just stashed away just in case. So he came out with like, the short camouflage shorts and the face paint and waving the USA flag. Anyway, after Gay Day, he went home and he'd fallen in love with Alnwick. And it was just it wasn't New York. He lived like a six minute walk to Central Park. So it's totally different. But he fell in love with the place. And he sent me an email, a bit of a video explaining why love Alnwick and if there's any opportunities that came up, and this, that, and the other. And the only thing that popped in them ahead as soon as I saw his video was the head of play, and I just knew that he would be the person for this role. Kelly Molson: But was it a role that you were looking for or did you create. Ian McAllister: It for the role we discussed? We always discussed that we needed someone. It was going to be it's almost like a head of operations for Lillidorei, but that sounds far too boring. So we always knew there was going to be a role for somebody. I don't think we quite realised to the extent of how influential this role would be in creating the entire story and the entire visit. So Nathan, with his ideas, he's opened theme parks before. He's been in stunt performances in various theme parks. He opened, like, the Harry Potter experiences in Orlando. So he's done all this stuff already. But I remember he Zoom called me one morning. He said, you're never going to believe it. I've got an interview with the Duchess at lunchtime. Brilliant. So I gave him a few bit of background and what were working towards. Ian McAllister: About 2 hours later, he zoomed me back. He said, you're never going to believe it. I've got the job. They sort me out a house. I'm flying over next week, and I've got a tea at the castle with the Duchess. It's like every American film you've seen where they tried to represent England in a completely fictional way. He was living it. Kelly Molson: What a life. Wow. Ian McAllister: And that was it. And he's been here since. And he loves it. He's absolutely settled. He's incredible. He's got this team of amazing people who do things like juggling with Diablos and teaching kids that go on balance boards and hula hoops. Their job is to interact with everybody that comes in and just create the atmosphere. Kelly Molson: And that's what makes the place so special, isn't it? It's that interaction from the people and the encouragement of the ideas that the children have to explore them that makes it a magical place. Ian McAllister: It is. It's incredible to sit as a construction site. All of a sudden. And now to see 600, 700 kids running around each session screaming and laughing and coming out with ruddy faces and wet trousers, it's everything we wanted it to be come to life, a Kelly Molson: It sounds magic. And I've seen those faces, I've seen the kids faces on the ITV clip, which we'll put in the show notes, actually, so you can have a look at it if you haven't had a chance to go up there yet. I want to talk a little bit about, because you've said a few times now, Alnwick want to talk a little bit about, because you've said a few times now, Alnwick, it's relatively rural, a small community, there's not a huge amount going on there other than this spectacular Alnwick Garden and Lilidorei that's just launched. You offer Free Fridays. And I saw the Duchess talk about this. It's for local children, school children, to come for free on a Friday so they can experience what's happening there. What impact do you think that Lilidorei is going to have on the local community and the children there? Ian McAllister: I think so. Two elements to that, really, then, the creation of the attraction itself. We've always estimated roughly, or looking quite accurately, based on recent figures, that it's going to bring an extra 200,000 people a year into the area. And that's going to benefit, obviously, it's going to benefit us, it's going to benefit the Alnwick Garden Trust, it's going to benefit the Alnwick Castle, which is another attraction up the road. All the local restaurants, pubs, hotels, everyone's going to benefit because what we're hoping to do is turn AlnwickAll the local restaurants, pubs, hotels, everyone's going to benefit because what we're hoping to do is turn Alnwick into a multi day destination, so people won't just come for one of the things and go back to Newcastle, back to Edinburgh. They'll do it as a day trip. So we're hoping that it will really kind of drive the local economy. Ian McAllister: So in terms of local economic benefit, I think that's kind of nailed, really. The figures are already quite obvious. In terms of the Free Fridays, then you don't have to go that far out of Alnwick, particularly if you went to South Northumberland and there's quite a lot of people that are in all sorts of various situations. There's schools in different areas, there's kids that just would not be able to afford to come otherwise because it's comparable to other attractions. But it's still not a cheap day out, it's not three quid to go to the local soft play. So there's a lot of kids that the Duchess particularly just didn't think it was fair, wouldn't be able to experience it, hence Free Fridays. Ian McAllister: So the idea of Free Friday is that every school child in Northumberland, and then eventually, when we've kind of been running for a bit, we'll widen it to Tyne and Wear into Newcastle. But at the minute, every child in Northumberland should be able to experience Lillidorei without having to pay. So we've opened up this application process where local schools can apply to come to one of the sessions and that's for any Friday throughout the year. So already the mini uptake has been phenomenal and there's schools that you see that you think, you know, I know exactly what area that school is in and without making too many judgments, you know, that they just would not be able to afford to come, so we're giving them the opportunity to come. Ian McAllister: So that's part one of Free Fridays, which is well underway at the minute, and I think we're almost booked up for the rest of the next twelve months with Fridays. Kelly Molson: That's amazing. Ian McAllister: But the next part is that the Duchess is to now do other initiatives to try and put money into a ring fenced account. So then eventually when that account builds up, we'll also be able to start to subsidise travel. So if you've got a school that's an hour's journey away, hopefully this pot of money, they can apply to it to pay for their hiring of a school coach or a minibus or whatever it's going to be to actually bring the kids up. So it's an entirely free day and there's different things like she's doing private tours, we're doing packages where you can have a nice meal at the treehouse and then come into Lilidorei afterwards. So like I say, that's all going to be ring fence specifically for transport from Free Fridays. Kelly Molson: That's incredible. What an opportunity. And like you say, for the kids that just would not have that opportunity to be able to go and experience it. It's just such a wonderful thing to be able to do. Ian McAllister: It is, it's incredible. And I think a lot of the feedback we saw before we opened, because again, as I say, it was quite hard to explain the concept of it and what you actually got for your 15 quid entry fee. So a lot of people say you've outpriced us and we can't afford it and this, that and the other. And that's why it was really good to then say, "Look, if you want to bring your kids, just tell your kids to speak to their teacher and get the teacher to speak to us and we can facilitate them for free". So it's making a difference already. It's incredible. Kelly Molson: Yeah. And I guess then it's about selling what that 15 pounds gets you the benefits of that 15 pounds. Yes, it's a relatively higher price point, but you start to break it down about the experience that they get there and the magic that can actually happen that they can't get anywhere else, and then it starts to become slightly more appealing purchase.  You can stay there for quite a long time, right? You've got that dwell time as well. So when you work it out, cost per hour, it actually seemed quite reasonable. Ian McAllister: And I think having two kids myself, I think what am I going to compare this to? So you can't compare it to going to local council run park because it's nowhere near the same, it's not just a climbing frame. And then I think, "Well, what else would I do for the kids for that time period on a Saturday if we're bored?" Probably get the cinema. So the cinema is going to be 1520 quid to get in. And then, sweetness, you got 2 hours of sitting in silence watching a film and then you come out, go home and that's done. Ian McAllister: So to compare it to that, to Lilidorei, you've got a three hour session where you can come in, whole family can interact and it's running free and it's fresh air, I mean, it's not fumbling, it's always fresh air and by fresh I mean probably freezing most of the time. But you've got this it's a completely different experience and I think where people were just looking at it as it's a climbing frame, well, I could just go up the park. So it's trying to explain to people that it is different and yeah, it doesn't work out a really cheap day if you've got two parents and three kids, for example. But what we have done, we've introduced, and we're going to look at this after some holidays, we introduced the founder Lilidorei membership. Ian McAllister: My idea with this is always it's got to be for the child focused. So it's the child that has the membership. So little Johnny could have a membership for him and an adult, or him and two adults, and that means they could bring in mum and dad or they could bring in Nanny Granddad or they could bring in whoever they want. But it's always for me been the child that dictates this whole thing. So we always say that well behaved adults can come in with a responsible child. So we've kind of flipped the narrative a little bit there. And in terms of the membership itself, I used to read the Beano when I was a kid and the only thing I ever wanted grown up was Dennis the Menace fan club membership. Ian McAllister: And with that it cut a wallet, a membership card and a badge. And so for me, Lilidorei membership, you get a wallet, a card and a badge. So all these founder lidorians walk around proudly displaying their badge because there was a limited number of to be the very first people to be these members. But it's empowering the kids. The adults are allowed to come if the kid says they can come. I almost wanted to wake up on a Saturday morning and the child go, "Right, mom, you've been good, you can come with me. Dad, you got to wash the car and do the dishes". Kelly Molson: I love that. I love that giving them the choice of who they take and to take Granny as well. Yeah, it's a really good point about the memberships, isn't it? Because it is generally tied to the adult and the children that they have. But I love that you've empowered the kids to make that choice. Yeah. So you've got to be the kid. The parents have to be good all week. Ian McAllister: Exactly. That's to end the story points.Kelly Molson: Yeah. Well, we're going back to your food eating and your little sticker chart, aren't we? That's what you need. There you go. Sell that in the shop for the adults to buy their sticker reward chart, whether they get to come back or not on the next visit. Ian McAllister: That's a great idea, talking to the shop, actually, just briefly, because you may. Kelly Molson: Segue listen, I'm on fire today, Ian. Segue into the shop. Ian McAllister: My good friend Matthew Henderson, who anyone who listens to podcast will have heard him before. He has been incredible. He's been absolutely amazing. It was him that put you and I in touch in the first place. We bought him in to get the shop ready. And to say it's shop ready is the biggest understatement of the century, because I've never seen anything like it. The people that work in retail, a retail manager, Tracy, to coin a phrase, and not sound corny, it's like all the Christmases have come at once, because she's always wanted this shop that she's proud of, that she's selling things that she believes in. It's all been sourced specifically for her. And Matt has done just what a job. It's incredible. Kelly Molson: He is such a great guy, Matt. So Matthew came on our podcast. It was only a few episodes away, actually, ago, actually, and Matt used to work at Beamish and now he's out on his own. He's a consultant now and helps lots of attractions work out their special offering, the uniqueness when it comes to products. And I have seen a photograph of the shop and, oh, my God, it looks like an attraction in itself. It looks like something you'd pay to go visit in itself, like a Santa's Grotte or say. It's just incredible. Ian McAllister: It's phenomenal. And he was also fundamental in helping us with all the food and stuff that we're doing across site, but mainly in there. You know about the ice creams? Kelly Molson: I know about the ice cream. Tell us. Ian McAllister: So there's three flavours. I mean, you've got a vanilla, but then you've got the other obvious choices. You've got Troll Snot ice cream and you've got fairy dust ice cream. So fairy dust is like a raspberry ripple with popping candy. And Troll Snot is pure bright green, but it's sour apple, which sounds vile, but it's actually really nice. But I've got pictures of him with a hair net at the ice cream facility, which I keep telling him should be his next Tinder profile. He's got so involved in it, he's been instrumental in the whole thing. I don't think we'd be anywhere near where we are now without Matthew. Kelly Molson: Oh, wow. Well, that is a massive compliment to Matthew in itself, isn't it? No, he's a great guy. And I think it's something that sometimes gets a bit overlooked when it comes to shop. And you often go to places and you see the same things. Exit through the gift shop, you see the same things, and it genuinely just feels like, and I can only say this from the photos, but it just feels like you're stepping into such a magical world as an extension of the magical world that you've just come out of. Ian McAllister: It really is. It's surreal because on Press Day, we had a launch day a couple of weeks ago, it was so hot. It was a beautiful day. I clearly have the sunglasses on all day, caught a nice tan. Apart from the work stuff, it was a really nice day. But then you do, you exit into the shop and it's like you've already sudden fast forwarded six months and you're in the middle of Christmas. There's Christmas trees and candy canes and balls, not to mention the ridiculous amount of old fashioned sweet jars with trolls fingers and different fudges. And it is surreal because then you've had this 20 minutes Christmas experience in the shop and then you're back into 24 degree heat again. It's bizarre. Kelly Molson: You opened on was it the 25th of May? Is that your opening day? Ian McAllister: Yeah. So a couple of days before half term, were supposed to have a lot more testing than we had, but because of construction issues, we ended up with two testing days. We were supposed to have at least a month or two months testing, but we had to literally do it all in two days. So we opened a VIP date and then we opened for the public on the Thursday. We would never have predicted this, the Thursday Friday, and then the full half term, every single slot was sold out to the point where after a couple of days, we made a judgment call to up capacity and then we upped it again. And it's been full, absolutely full. Kelly Molson: And have you kept that capacity as well? Ian McAllister: Because I think we didn't want the risk of opening, saying, right, we're going to get 800 kids in per session, and then all of a sudden there's 800 people trying to go down a slide. So we didn't want to ruin the visitors experience with queues and with too many people and crowds and this and the other. So we opened with 300 capacity, which was, I mean, once 300 people are on the play structure, you kind of see it. It's like you can't hear them, you can't see them, they've just vanished like ants. So we upped it to five and we're looking at up in it again to, I think, 750. We're going to maybe try and push it up to for some holidays. Kelly Molson: Gosh, that's incredible. So safe to say that it's been a successful launch, then. Ian McAllister: You know what, we couldn't have asked for more. We've had the weather, we've had the publicity. Everything has been going so well. It's been a really positive experience. It was touch and go for a bit where we're all sort of walking around a few days before launch. S***, there's a bump there. There's a thing here. And the construction team, I've never seen anyone react like it like the lighting team would pretty much work until 04:00 in the morning. So they'd work all day. But then they'd want to test their lights so they'd have to wait until it got dark. But then they'd work all night till 04:00 the next morning, go home for a few hours kip and then come back again. Ian McAllister: And we've got a big thank you party tonight at Lilidorei to thank all of the staff, volunteers and construction team for everything they've done to a few hundred people coming tonight. And it's been overwhelming how everybody's got involved, even contractors that might be there for a week doing something. It's been almost like a pride project for them. Kelly Molson: It's amazing. Well, but that shines through in what you've created, right? Everybody that's touched it has taken some kind of ownership of it. What a lovely thing to do. Just throw the party as well to say thank you. It's June now. The story behind Lilidorei obviously involves Christmas. I'm really intrigued as to what you might have planned for Christmas. Are you allowed to talk about any of that yet or is it embargoed? Ian McAllister: I can talk about it a little bit because I've seen it. So we had a sneak peek. So for the last two years, we've been followed around by MGM who have been filming the documentary for Channel Four. So Channel Four documentary goes out, I think, August. So there's a six part Saturday night documentary going out all about the Duchess. It's called The Duchess, but it's all about her leading up to this project. So their last filming day was VIP press day. Kelly Molson: Wow. Ian McAllister: About three days before that, we had a preview one night at 10:00. We would like to go onto site to get a preview of Christmas. I don't even think I can come up with the words. And I'm quite good with words. I can't even put together a sentence that explains quite how magical it is. It's just the lights, the sounds, the atmosphere. And this was a summer's night at 10:00, so I can't even think what it would be like when it is actually Christmas. And we've got three Santa's grottos. To talk, you kind of back a little bit.  Ian McAllister: You've probably seen the picture of the big Lilidorei entrance gate. So when you get to the gate, you've got sounds. You've got a troll talking to a pixie and who wants pixie, wants to let us in and the troll won't let her. So you stand there and you can hear this immersive sound and they won't open the gate. So what you have to do is kind of find a way around and go through a hidden tunnel. At Christmas, those gates will open and it's like, all of a sudden, Christmas is there. So you come in, every Christmas tree is going to be lit, and bear in mind, we've got 1400 Christmas trees. Every Christmas trees got fairy lights in. The atmosphere was just phenomenal. It sounds like a cop out, but it's got to be seen to believed. Kelly Molson: Well, I look forward to that, because that sounds right up my street. Ian McAllister: You know, you're welcome. You're more than welcome. I'll even treat you to some troll snot ice cream. Kelly Molson: How could I possibly say no to that? Ian McAllister: It's the Essex charm, isn't it? Kelly Molson: Just wins me over every time Ian, thank you for coming on. So we always ask our guests to recommend a book at the end of a podcast. What have you got for us today? Ian McAllister: And it was post, COVID I read it and someone had recommended it. So I went and bought a copy and it's got to the point now where I've probably funded about 90% of the book sales because I'll keep buying copies and saying to someone, you love this, I've given them a copy and it's The Midnight Library by Matt Haig. Have you read it? Kelly Molson: Yeah. Great book. Ian McAllister: For me, I think I am where I am now and my career path, my life path, everything was based on decisions and sometimes it's easy to sit and think, that's a bad decision. If I hadn't made that decision, I'd be much happier now. And The Midnight Library, for anyone who hasn't read it, is all about going back and retrospectively looking at your decisions that you've made in life and you get a glimpse of where that decision took you. And I think for me, what it did was instead of me constantly going back, not depressed or anything, but you kind of sit and dwell sometimes instead of thinking well. Ian McAllister: So, for example, I nearly joined the RAF when I was 17 and I wanted to be military police, but because I've got terrible eyesight, they said, well, we can't give you a gun because you probably shoot the wrong person. So they offered me dentistry. So, looking at the time, I was typical Essex. Toys were out, the pram, I'm not doing this, I don't want to do it. So I went to uni and did all that stuff. But I often think back, I think, you know what? If I'd have gone in the RFN and had paid to train me as a dentist and I've done the service, I could have come out and sat me in dental practice and this, that and the other.Ian McAllister: And I often think, would I be happier had I done that and done that as a career path and been a professional, if you like, because I still don't consider myself a professional. But then this book almost made me reframe that a little bit and think, you know what, I might not have done that. I might have hated it or something else would have changed and I wouldn't have had my beautiful children, I'm a stupid dog, or wouldn't have any of that sort of stuff now if I'd have taken that career path. So in a nutshell, for me, The Midnight Library is a really good read. It's quite an easy read, I found, because I was really invested in it, but it made me reframe a little bit. Kelly Molson: Yeah, it's a great book. I've read it a couple of times now and similar to you, it's made me look back at not so much choices but events that have happened to us. Me and my partner, we've had a load of people this is quite public knowledge, we've had a load of trouble having children and we lost quite a few along the way and multiple rounds of IVF and all of that malarkey. And I think that book made me reflect on some of those things that had happened because you start to question, am I a bad person here? Or like, why are these things happening to us? We're good people, what's wrong? Kelly Molson: But some of those things that have happened regardless, despite them being really difficult and quite awful, they've led you to other things that are magic and they've given you gifts of something really tragic happened. Has been able to give us the gift of being able to talk about it openly, which has then gone on and helped other people be able to talk about it or share how they are or just given someone found them, someone that they can talk to. And I think you have to just kind of look back at those things and I don't know, it's a long winded way of saying I completely agree with you and it's a really good book. If you're feeling a bit reflective about your life, it's definitely one to go and have a read of. So yeah, good read. Ian McAllister: I think it may me kind of start to think about the ways I've handled things and how I sort of shape things moving forward so that my best friend died when were at college and my nephew died when he was eight. And all these things in your life that at the time are the worst thing that could ever possibly happen and you could either go one way or the other and it almost explained or kind of put into context a little bit. I think that these things happen not necessarily for a reason, but the way that you cope with it and deal with it and move on after it. That's almost like the learning that you take from it. But this is a different podcast altogether. This is like a griefcast, so we'll do another one. Kelly Molson: This has ended on a complete opposite spectrum than it started, Ian. Anyway, listeners, if you want to win a copy of that book, I'd highly recommend you go and do this. So go over to this podcast announcement and retweet it with the words I want Ian's book. And you will be put into the draw to win a copy of The Midnight Garden. Kelly Molson: Midnight Garden? Midnight Library. Midnight Garden is a whole different book, kids book Midnight Library.Kelly Molson: Ian, thanks for coming on today. It's been brilliant to chat to you. We will put all of the information about Lilidorei and Alnwick Gardens into the show notes so you can have a little look for yourself. But those tickets for Christmas are going to sell out quickly, people, so get yourself on the mailing list. That's all I'm going to say. Ian McAllister: Thank you, Kelly. It's been so nice to talk to you. Living this far north, it's nice to establish my roots with an Essex person again. Kelly Molson: Well, always welcome. Six months check in, right?Ian McAllister: Thanks, Kelly.  Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Today's guest, Neil Ferrier and I share many mutual friends and acquaintances, and we've exchanged several DM's, yet we'd somehow never met prior to this recording. Early during COVID I reached out to Neil, and though it took 2+ years, I was thrilled we made this happen. We chat about his Industrial Design firm, Discommon, as well as his watch brand, Blok, let alone so much of his insights he has as a founder and entrepreneur. I often thank guests for their candor, and this chat is no exception. As I edited this, I honestly got lost in the conversation as though I was hearing it for the first time and felt lucky, quite frankly, to be hearing and understanding the depths of what Neil has to say. Not to be greedy, but I really hope to have a round two later down the line, even though I'm thoroughly excited to share this conversation.  Links: STANDARD H https://standard-h.com/ @standardh_ @standardh_podcast Discommon https://www.discommon.com/ @discommon

Dr. Chrystle Cu is giving all our listeners 50 FREE Cocofloss Minis! Head on over to our link to claim your 50 free Cocofloss Minis on your first order! https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/50free-cocoflossminis/‍‍Guest: Chrystle CuBusiness Name: CocoflossCheck out Chrystle's Media:‍‍Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/getcocofloss/Website: https://cocofloss.com/Website for Dentists: https://cocoflosspro.com/Email: help@cocofloss.com‍Other Mentions and Links:‍Young Dental GroupInvisalignMatch.comADAYelpYellow PagesCVSiTeroThe Almanack of Naval Ravikant‍Host: Michael Arias‍Website: The Dental Marketer Join my newsletter: https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/newsletter/‍Join this podcast's Facebook Group: The Dental Marketer Society‍‍My Key Takeaways:Look past just the dentistry you're providing and think about the real values of the patients. Are they searching for more confidence, convenience, or preventing future problems?Having a fancy office will only go so far. Developing patient relationships is the real key!Adding vibrant colors and a colorful feel to your practice is a great way to stand out from the cold sterile environment.As a business owner, it is imperative to delegate tasks. Don't be afraid to give responsibility to team members in your absence.Make sure to find your true long term goals and work towards them on a day to day basis. It's easy to get off track and lose sight of these!‍Please don't forget to share with us on Instagram when you are listening to the podcast AND if you are really wanting to show us love, then please leave a 5 star review on iTunes! [Click here to leave a review on iTunes]‍p.s. Some links are affiliate links, which means that if you choose to make a purchase, I will earn a commission. This commission comes at no additional cost to you. Please understand that we have experience with these products/ company, and I recommend them because they are helpful and useful, not because of the small commissions we make if you decide to buy something. Please do not spend any money unless you feel you need them or that they will help you with your goals.‍Episode Transcript (Auto-Generated - Please Excuse Errors)Michael: Crystal, how's it going? Great, how are you? I'm doing pretty good. Thanks for asking. If you don't mind me asking, tell us a little bit about your past, your present, how'd you get to where you are today? Chrystle: Sure. So I am, well first I'm a dentist.Mm-hmm. And I have been a dentist for 15 years and I kind of fell into this industry. Most likely because my mom is a dentist, she's a general dentist as well. Mm-hmm. And I've, I mean, I'm not sure which part of today or or the future you wanna talk about, but. I, uh, had a dental practice in San Mateo.I kind of built a scratch practice out of my mom's practice, so she kind of helped incubate me out of her one free chair that she had, and I built a practice out of that. And through working as a dentist and doing a lot of my own hygiene for the first few years in practice, I grew super frustrated with.The state of oral hygiene as it was, and the lack of compliance or motivation um, for my patients. And so then I created coco floss with my sister in 2015. And it's since been very well received among dental professionals and in the dental community and consumers alike. So my goal as a dentist and as an entrepreneur is to help people achieve teeth for life, via small habits um, that they can incorporate easily.And something, something small, takes a couple minutes out of your day, and it's something delightful. It'll help make you healthier and help you achieve teeth for Michael: life. Gosh. So why um, well, we're gonna get into the why the cocoa. Bit right now or like part of it, but rewind a little bit. You were, you just decided to do dentistry because more like you saw your mom and you're like, I like that life, or, or why?Chrystle: You know, It was actually pretty roundabout. That's why I'm always a little hesitant when I share that, you know, it's not, so, it wasn't so simple. Like if A then B it wasn't that. Mm-hmm. My mom's a dentist, so I wanna be a dentist. It wasn't at all like that growing up. I I did spend a lot of time in her practice.You know, she would pick me up from school and sit me in her office and I would do my homework there. I would fill in for the front desk whenever the front desk was out sick, or if she had jury duty or was on vacation. I was the front desk and I would, Schedule appointments with pencil and paper and would do the patient ledgers and um, the claims.But those were fun times as a, as a, young adult. And I, uh, also growing up I was a competitive pianist, so my mom being a dentist, many of her friends were dentists and they would say, you know, crystal, you know, with your fast fingers, you should consider dentistry because, those hand skills might come in handy for you in the future.And so all these like little seeds were planted for me very early on in. And it really wasn't until college I was a chemistry major. I knew I had an inclination towards the health sciences because I have a lot of healthcare professionals in my family. And then I, just tried to explore various things.I really tried hard not to, funnel straight into dentistry and I explored various things, but I, I met a group of other women who were determined they wanted to be dentists and they were part of a very small pre-dental society at our college, Wellesley. And together we volunteered at elementary schools in the local um, in suburban Boston.And we taught young children how to brush their teeth and how to care for their teeth. And I had so much fun in this experience that, that that volunteer, those volunteering days alone were what really made me decide that, okay, I wanna be a dentist. So it was the education part of it that really um, got me the education and prevention.So that, yeah, so it was a little roundabout, but definitely helped that, you know, I was exposed to dentistry very early on throughout my childhood. Michael: Yeah. But it didn't become like what you wanted to do until you, until you volunteered. Chrystle: Exactly. Yeah. So it was the volunteering, the community stuff that really got me why.I care a lot about health personally. I just, just love, how, you know, just a little bit of education and education can be free and how that can really help impact a person's life um, you know, in a small way. But that can add up into, let's say, extra years of your life, for example.And so I just, I just had so much fun, you know, that instant reward feeling of being able to teach children how to take care of their teeth and understand about oral health. It felt so good to do that and I, I, I continue to live off of that. I thrive on that feeling so. I continued on in dental school.I was president of our community service organization, and I coordinated everybody's community service while I was there. And so through that I also got to pick and choose the, the coolest community service events. And so, you know, I, I thrived off of that and just really love the outreach work.I love being able to just get in, help people immediately and just, being able to like, fix someone up in like 20 minutes and then them like, give you a big hug and like tears in their eyes and telling you that you've changed their life, that's the kind of stuff that really gets me going.So, and as a dentist, I um, do some, like outreach work. I like to travel to the Philippines and I work out of a pediatric clinic in a very rural town um, in behold in the Philippines. So all of this just, it just keeps fueling my fire and makes me continue to be really passionate about oral health and about prevention.Nice. Michael: So it's more like the. The feeling of the empathy with the people. Right. Kind of like, oh, like, you know, you feel like you can do something right, and then you're doing it basically. Yeah, Chrystle: yeah, definitely. And I would say that, you know, as a dentist, my favorite among, among the things I love about dentistry, one of my favorite parts about it is just building these relationships with people and trying to understand them and, understand what, what are their, what drives 'em, what motivates them.And then I try to help them align. Their goals with better oral health. And it sounds kinda like a little abstract, but I usually can make it, uh, can connect the dots for them because they think they have very like, simple goals with regards to oral health. But when I ask a patient, well, you know, cuz they might say like, oh I just want white teeth or mm-hmm.I don't wanna have to spend so much on my fillings every year cuz that's what I have to do every year. And then I'll kind of, you. I'll make them take a step back and we'll ask them like, how about teeth for Life? Would that be a good goal for you? If they're always like a little surprised, they're like, whoa, teeth for life.I never thought about that. Cause like maybe you should, you could have a little control over it with the right with the right habit building and the right intentions early on. We, we, there are things we can't control in life and there are things that we can control and so why not, implement some small changes to your day-to-day that would help you achieve something that shouldn't be so abstract teeth for life. Mm-hmm. Michael: And so these are like, when you're talking to a patient about that, are those like your new patient exams? Yeah. Okay. How long are those normally Chrystle: for you? Um, Usually at least an hour, but of course in the beginning my assistants are doing like with a requisite ECRI rays and we usually do an IRO scan and photography.Mm-hmm. But time with me is usually at least 30 minutes and sometimes it can go longer. but yes, it usually happens, like the, the most impactful conversations tend to happen in the first patient exam because that's the opportunity that you get to really like, dig in and ask about all their prior dental experiences and what brought them to your chair, your practice to begin with.So that also is my favorite dental appointment, the first new patient exam. Michael: Yeah, I like that. So in your practice, or I'm, I'm assuming you still have that Salmon Mateo practice, right? Or no? Chrystle: Uh, so yes, very recently in July I sold my practice to, uh, a wonderful doctor who I I admire and I'm excited about seeing her grow and take the practice to the next level.Wow. Okay. I'm Michael: gonna ask you about that right now, but real quick, when it comes to the new patient exam, when you were doing it, a lot of the times I think we think like, the more we can run through, the more efficiency, the more numbers right, better collections and production, things like, In your mind, it doesn't really sound like you're worried about that.You're kind of more worried about what? Chrystle: I'm building a connection with the patient and I'm really like establishing, building rapport and I'm trying to understand them. So I am doing my like, clinical assessment and diagnosis in my head. They don't really need to hear that. They don't care. But I'm trying to understand what makes them tick, maybe my patient is. 29 years old and he's striking out on match.com that probably doesn't even exist anymore. I'm dating myself, Ben, like, and he's just, how can he build some confidence in his, in his personal, in, in his whole being, right? And mm-hmm. You know, obviously as dentists we can help with that.So again, just trying to understand what makes people tick, right? What is it that's driving this person? Is it because they're trying to. And, and it, it doesn't necessarily be related to oral health. Like are they trying to achieve something in terms of like their personal fitness goals? are they trying to get a promotion at work?Whatever it is. Like, I wanna know what is the, what does this person care about most and how can I align my recommendations with what Michael: they want? Yeah. So then what questions do you ask for that? Like, it's a complete new person, you're like, Hey, what's up? Or how do you go? Doing that. Is it in the form beforehand and you just look at it or?Chrystle: So I have, I mean, we've been a little lazy and we never made our own health history form. We just used the one from the ada. Mm-hmm. I like to read between the lines there. Um, and you know, the ADA form, it just has like really basic info, but it includes occupation, which is really telling also like who they're um, in case of emergency person would be, or like their spouse or partner.And then of course there's the dental history and then the medical history. And then I just, ask questions, beyond what was on the health history form, and I ask them to tell me more, and then I'm not asking yes or no questions. I'm actually saying like, well, tell me about this.I see here that you've circled that you have tooth sensitivity. Tell me about that. Mm-hmm. So it's not so much like, do you have tooth sensitivity? Yes or no. It's not a binary response. It's tell me about your tooth sensitivity. And then they're gonna tell you a story about like, well, every time I I make ice cream, they're gonna say like, I love to make ice cream.And every time I try my ice cream, it's sensitive or whatever, where I remember I have a patient who. He does struggle with erosion, for example. But he really, really loves making beer, and that's just something that's so important to him. So for him, the decisions and the decisions we make are around like, well, how can we accommodate your passion for beer?I'm not gonna tell you to stop drinking beer because that's part of something that, that's something you really care about, but how can we. Build a plan for you that would help you achieve teeth for life while keeping in, your love for making beer. Michael: Yeah. No, no, no. I a hundred percent. I like that.How you try to connect it, you know? mm-hmm. Especially like occupational, like, oh, mm-hmm. Why are you doing that? And then they're like, oh, I would love to be doing this instead, and be like, also, you love doing that. Right? And you get right. You dig deeper. Yeah. No, no, no. It's good. It's the conversation and the report that you're building, right?Like the relationship. I think that's what we kind of have to look into it. But let's fast forward a little bit. You had a practice. Yes. So talk to me about that. Chrystle: Sure. So first, my mom had a practice that she built from scratch. She had a two operatory practice an immigrant to the United States. So she didn't really have like a network.Um, English wasn't even her first language, but she built a small practice and in for the entirety of her career, she used one. Out the tube. So that's like, nobody does that anymore. First of all, nobody builds two operatory practices unless maybe like very, very, yeah. Specialized. But two operatory general practice and for the entirety of your career.The second chair was basically just, it was used as like a place to hang, a let apron or a place to put the patient's purse. We didn't use that chair at. I wanna say like after maybe 15 or so years, my mom switched the chairs so that at least she got a new chair on her side and the other chair, the older chair.And then when I graduated from dental school in 2008, she didn't have any patience for me. Again, a one chair practice, it's not like a growing thing. And she, she didn't have any patients to give me. So I went and associated with another doctor. In San Francisco and I worked with him, I wanna say like three to four days a week to.And it really was unglamorous. It wasn't, it wasn't anything that, you know, you would dream of. Mm-hmm. It's just, it was a very simple practice. But that doctor, he built an, amazing loyal patient base and had to give him credit. Like he built, these relationships and these patients were so, you know, they, they would never switch dentists even though, the patients were seeing me all the time.Instead of him. They were very loyal to him. And so, I, I learned from there that it's not about having a fancy office at all, it's about the relationship that you build with the patient and of course, doing good dentistry. So a couple years after working with him and not feeling like I was the best fit there, because quite frankly, I wasn't him.He's like this tall guy and he has like a presence and I'm like this little, little Asian 23 year. How old was I then? I was probably 26. And patients would look at me and think I was the assistant. So eventually I started to feel like, all right, I'm getting discouraged here.Time to go build my own patient base. So I, I thankfully had my mom's empty, dusty chair to work out of really old equipment. It was all built in 1986, but I made it into my own, my own practice and I. Quickly, rose to the top of, you know, Yelp search results for having really strong Yelp.And again, a surprise because I was a pretty new graduate and it, again, it had nothing to do with like my facilities. Mm-hmm. By no means state of New York, but it was, I, I, I do believe that it was my you know, how much time I spent with my patients and I had time because, I didn't have any patients to start with, so why not?Spend extra time with the patient. And so I quickly, yeah, just built a practice out of that, just outta one chair. And then soon after that, I, encouraged my mom to take some days off so I could use her chair as well. And in 2018 I had to, well we outgrew our practice a long time prior to this, but in 2018, I, I bought another practice for their space cuz they had four operatories that I could change into five.And so I built a five operatory practice and we, I moved everyone over there, my mom, myself, and our whole, whole team. And in 2022, I sold my practice to my associate. Michael: Gotcha. Okay. So I. It came up right, like pretty quick, really Chrystle: quick. And I, I, I think we would've, we should have moved out of our two operatory space a long time ago.It's just in our town, San Mateo, there are a lot of limitations around, like zoning restrictions, about how you can build a dental practice. For example, downtown San Mateo, you're not allowed to be on the ground level. They want you. Walk down the street and see like coffee shops and restaurants and like retail spaces, but no medical practices or dental practices that allowed you to be upstairs.And if you build a new place upstairs, need to have an 88 compliant elevator. These buildings are like a hundred years old. Nobody has room for an 88 compliant elevator. And so it was just hard. Like I looked for a new practice space for years and I kept striking out. and that, and actually this, this problem I had with like physical space and lack of chair time.I would say was a really key ingredient in my ability to create coco floss because as a dentist, I really should have just been busy doing dentistry. Mm-hmm. And at my growing practice, I should have been doing, I should have been so busy doing the dentistry, but because I didn't have enough chair time I made myself busy making floss.Michael: Wow. Okay. So then, Were people calling and like, Hey Dr. Ku, I wanna, I wanna schedule an appointment. You're like, six months from now, or something like Chrystle: that, or, exactly. It was absurd. Mm-hmm. And I had patients like, tell me, I'll never forget I had this one patient um, for his first new patient exam. He told me he had been waiting for months and after his comprehensive exam, at which time, I don't typically do the first prophylaxis or periodontal maintenance.I just, I do the comprehensive exam and I schedule them for whatever follow-up care they need. Mm-hmm. Basically demanded that I do his cleaning and I was, I was so upset. I was like, but then I also, I mean, I can't help but feel badly. He did wait months to have his appointment with me. And I, I don't know, I I, I dismissed him shortly after that.I was like, this is obviously not a good fit. I don't feel comfortable. Like the way he, yeah, he basically yelled at me saying I had to do his cleaning, and I, I was really upset about it. I admittedly, I, I believe I was crying as I did his cleaning. Michael: And so that wasn't, did he see you? Did he see you? Cry when you were, or No, I was in Chrystle: my 12 o'clock position, so I, I doubt it, but I was really upset about it.Yeah. And so I, I just missed him. But, it's unfortunate that a new patient like that I, I brought him to that point, right. That I've made him wait so long that he was that upset. A new patient exam. Like I know that some practices will preschedule block out time for new patients just to make sure there's always time for a new patient.And I think that's a wise. Thing to do if you get really busy. But for me, it wasn't possible. and I also got to the point where for treatment for some people, you know, if they needed a lot of treatment, I would say, uh, can we do this treatment at your six month week care? Which is a long time to wait for treatment.When I had five operatories, if somebody needed treatment, it's like, let's go do it in the other room right now. Mm-hmm. You know, I would make it happen right now. Whereas, for these, for my, in my two operatory. Somebody needed something, we would have to wait a long time for it. So it just became ridiculous.And um, but that also made me, kind of obsess over prevention because if I was gonna tell a patient, mm, we're gonna have to do your crown in six months, so what I want you to do in between, in the meantime, and I really need you to floss every day, and this is how I want you to do it. And this is why it's important.Yeah. And so that's, that's kind of how I became self obsessed with. Michael: Gotcha. Okay. That's it. So then remind a little bit, you said you had a strong Yelp review, right? That helped you gain the traction. How'd you, if you don't mind me asking, like how'd you build that up? Did you just ask people or. Chrystle: Yeah, actually I think I did ask people in the beginning and it was a little awkward.Of course it's a little awkward to ask that question, but I started with just, you know, my patients when I first started, again, it started from no patients. So I started with just my friends, and my family, so like my cousin or whatever, and. And then I would have them write a Yelp review for me. And I didn't tell them what to write.I wouldn't say like, oh, make sure you gimme five stars or anything like that. It's like, please, can you gimme an honest review on Yelp? Mm-hmm. and then I think at the time it just, there weren't as many like, places to look for reviews at the time. This was like in 2010 or so. So, Yeah, like the, the Yelp reviews just kept piling on and, uh, the phone would bring off the hook.So I was scheduling anywhere from 30 to 50 new patients per month in my one year Michael: off from Yelp, Chrystle: basically. Yeah. Because otherwise I, I mean, the other, only other place to find me would be like, I don't know, maybe in the Yellow Pages, but who, who, who uses that anymore. Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay. That's interesting.Let me ask you, how did it feel for you to be like, We're moving, we're moving to a bigger place like kind of thing. Chrystle: it was hard. Um, But it actually like, it, it kind of happened. So how I mentioned that it was really hard to find his place. For years, I looked for a new place, but it wasn't until our landlord actually told us that we had to move and we didn't have a choice in the matter.They. Evicted the entire building because they wanted to, redo the whole building and rent it out to a single tenant and it wasn't gonna meet any of us existing tenants. That was what really did it for me. They were like pulling the rug out from beneath us. And so they gave us less than one year notice about that.And so I had to find a new practice. And again, I kept striking out. I kept looking and, and struggling with. So I, I, there actually was a point where I thought I might just have to sell our charts and, and maybe I wouldn't, I was like, maybe it's not gonna work out, or, um, you know, maybe we'd have to rent chairs out of a friend's practice, but what would that look like?Cuz we have our own team and our own philosophy and it just might be kinda awkward and that would only be an interim solution. So that was definitely hard, but thankfully, you know, my mom and I, we, we, it all made, it all worked out. My mom I mentioned that she's an immigrant, so she's from the Philippines.She went to dental school in the Philippines and grew up there and she just ran into. A friend from the Philippines mm-hmm. Who happened to have a practice in our town and happened to, it happened to be bigger. Mm-hmm. And when my mom mentioned to her our situation doctor was like, Hmm, well maybe I should slow down and maybe if Crystal can wait for me, I.Maybe I'll just sell my practice to her. So, it was kind of an ins like, it was just a very lucky moment because I don't, I don't know that she necessarily had an exit plan for herself at the time. She was just enjoying dentistry and Wasn't necessarily of the age to retire, but you know, the idea of having someone like me take over her practice sounded kind of good to her.So, and it just, my mom just happened to float the, I floated to her, so it worked out, Michael: so, yeah. Nice. Okay. So then, is it just your mom or do you My Chrystle: mom. Oh, as my, as works. Who works in our practice or Michael: no, I'm sorry. Like in your family, like, oh, Chrystle: um, at the, Michael: as the dentist. As a dentist, but I mean like as far as like, cause you talk about your mom, I don't know if you have a dad or Chrystle: Yeah, yeah.I have a dad too. And a sister who's like Michael: Coco. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, is he a dentist to the dad or your dad or no? Chrystle: Uh, no, but he's more of an entrepreneur, so I like to say that my sister and I are basically mashups of my parents, you know, one being an entrepreneur, the other being a dentist, and, and that's kind of like what we're made out of.Michael: Yeah. That's awesome. So then you started Cocoa Floss. Chrystle: Uh, 2015 is when we launched our product. Though I had been tinkering with floss ideas for years prior for lack of anything better to do with my time. I, I had two hygienists working out of the two chairs, and I would just like twiddle my thumbs, like, what can I do myself?Michael: What can I do by myself? Okay. No. And so at any moment, crystal, did you think like, I'm tired of doing, Or like, I'm tired of being a business owner. Like where was the moment where you were like, I don't wanna do this as much as I thought I did? Uh, dentistry. You mean dentistry or owning the business? Like as far as a practice.Hmm. Oh, Chrystle: that's really hard. So it only finally came to the like, clear decision that I needed to sell the practice or like, it was 20, it was last year, like in the fir in the spring of last year. And it was, it was so hard. And I still kind of like, yeah, I think I, I know I made the right decision cuz the doctor in there is wonderful.But uh, it was because my sister had a health scare and she, she's floss and she was like, crystal, I, I can't do this if I have to go through all this health stuff. So, What do you wanna do about it? You gotta let something go. Are we gonna let coco floss go? Or are you gonna let the dental practice go?And so, yeah, that's what happened. I was also pregnant last year. I was pregnant the entire year, last year. So had a, the entire year I was pregnant the entire year. I had a baby on the way. And busy with, already juggling both businesses and then my sister telling me that. She might need to take a step back from work and I would have to take over.So I was like, I, I can't do them all. Well, I would love to do them all, but if I wanna do them all, well that's not possible. And then the, the baby on the way was not something that you could defer or put off like the baby's coming. So, yeah, I made the decision to solve a practice and it was a very swift thing.Um, It wasn't even enough time for us to, tell the patients like I, I. Started to tell the patients now, because finally we've gotten around to sitting down and drafting a letter to explain it all to them. Um, but we did it with, you know, minimal upset to the practice, a very smooth transition. So I, I would say that I think patients don't even know, like they didn't know of the change because the team didn't change.Nothing changed about the practice. Michael: Gotcha. Why did the, I guess, cocoa floss weigh heavier, you know what I mean? Like, In this thing, right? Or in the pendulum. Right. Why did you guys decide to go, or you decide to go with cocoa floss instead of just your practice? Yeah, Chrystle: so I think um, it kind of, I realized that, well, like any business owner, c e o dentist practice owner, you have to try to delegate as much as you can and anything that you can hire someone to do in your plays, if they, if that's possible, then you should and you should focus on doing the things that only you can.So for example, like as a dentist, like if your a assistant can take great impressions or scan. Absolutely. The assistant should be doing it. The dentist should not be doing it right. It's all about managing that time well. And then what I learned through my first maternity leave in 2020 which coincided with Covid I was able to step away from the practice because I was on maternity leave and it was covid and the patients were doing okay without me.I mean, certainly they asked about me, they wondered where I was, but they were all supportive of the fact that I, had a, had a baby. And it was, it was fine. And the associates that I hired they loved her, so they didn't need me. And so I just felt like I was able to delegate. And I mean, of course every doctor, uh, is different and every relationship is different.So of course, like, I can't say that these, their relationships replace my relationship that I have with my patient. But I, I do think that, um, at Coco Floss, I'm. Uniquely positioned to help lead that business because, it was my idea to begin with, and I'm the one who cares so much about oral health and prevention.So it wasn't right for me to just, to, if I had to abandon one I couldn't abandon Coco floss. Michael: Hmm. Because, yeah, cuz of how unique the position is. It's, it's, you, you guys, you know what I mean? Like a lot of you is in it to where it's like you can't delegate. Chrystle: Yes, exactly. Whereas for the My Dental practice and when I first started, my practice name was just my name Crystal Coo, d d s.But um, some years, you know, maybe around 2014 or so, I rebranded the practice to Young Dental Group because my hygiene team was taking up both of my chairs. And so, um, I wanted to make sure that the name of the practice encompassed all of the providers of the practice. So it wasn't just about me anymore, it was about the whole experience for the patient and all the providers that contributed to the patient's care.young Dental Group. With that practice being less about me and more about the whole experience I could take myself out and it would still be Young Dental Group, Coco Floss. My sister and I, we lead the bus, we lead the company. And if you take me out of it, it doesn't really make sense cuz my sister, she wasn't a flosser. she doesn't care as much about oral health as I do. So yeah, I, I don't, I don't know. Basically I, I needed to be at Coco. Michael: Yeah, it has, uh, your perspective on it. You know what I mean? Like your whole I side of it, so you kind of need to be in it, you know what I mean? So then when did Coco floss to you become like, oh, snap, this is guys, this is a business.Like we're, we're making stuff happen here. Like, this is good mu or you know what I mean? Like when did it become a business? Chrystle: I mean, we've been growing very steadily every year. I remember, I think early on we started out of my apartment and then out my apartment moved to my parents' home.There were days when I would go home during my lunch break to help help my sister like pack boxes. And I think, uh, one of these days when I, one of the moments or times when I felt like, oh man, this is really business. When I go home for my one hour lunch break and see that we have like 300 packages to, to build, it's like, oh, now we're gonna do this all in one hour.That was one of 'em. And other times, I think, you know, going to dental meetings we started very simply at dental meetings with just like a symbol. Booth, like a table with a tablecloth. And now we're, we've got like a double booth at larger meetings, like at C D A, we'll have like a double booth.That's, and it's, it's always jam-packed. We need to have like at least six people manning the booth at any given time. And there's always people standing in line and that feels kind of crazy. It feels like, I don't know if you, I'm sure you've been to cda, but it feels like a wild bazaar. And so that, that feels, makes me feel like we have a business.What's also really exciting is next, in two weeks we're launching at C V S, so this feels really grown up now. Michael: Wait, you guys are gonna be in c v s. Wow, man. That's ok. Chrystle: Hey, we're like, this is, this is real. Michael: Yeah. I've always been curious, crystal, how does that work? Like do you just like, dear CV s, or what do you do?Chrystle: Well, I would imagine that that's how you could do it though. For all of our wholesale partnerships to date, including c v s, they've all been um, obtained via, like inbound requests from the buyers at these companies. So we've been carried at anthropology for many years, and it's because the, the buyer asked to have us there.And c v s likewise, the buyer. Is a personal fan of Coco Floss and she really, really, really wanted our product in their oral care aisle. So that's how it happened, Michael: man. Where was the moments where you were super like, like where you're like, yeah, this is it. This is part of, I guess, being an entrepreneur where it's insanely stressful.Chrystle: Oh, I feel that all the time. Um, My sister and I were always like schlepping things around. the number of like boxes we've had to carry and random things we've had to do. I, it just, it's kind of funny. Um, But I've kind of brought my family along on the ride for it. So, yeah, it is. I feel it every day and it's, it's really fun.Michael: Yeah. Is it a different type of stress than moaning a practice? Or like, is it the same, do you feel like it's the same, like, guys, this is the same thing, I have to manage employees and manage employees over here, or No, it's completely different. Chrystle: It feels a little different. So in the practice, it feels, I love how the practice feels so tight-knit.I mean, you see these people more than you see your own family. and it's the same people. Your team is there with you every day at Coco Floss. We're all remote, so we don't get to like physically be with each other, like can't really hug each other, for example. And so when we do see each other, it, it's really exciting, but it's all like, I'm on my computer all day.It's a very different type of work. And also the size of the business and the size of the team. Uh, coco Philosophy have about 30 employees now. The dental practice, it's always been around like 10 end to 12, so a larger team of Coco floss. the nice thing is that for both I, I still have as a dentist, they're both in pursuit of the same goal as just helping people achieve two for Michael: life.Mm-hmm. So then break it down for us, especially for the ones who are like coco floss, right? Or I've heard of it like coco floss. What is that? What is coco floss? Chrystle: It's a woven dental floss and it's infused with coconut oil and it comes in a bunch of fun fragrances. We always have it in, uh, coconut, strawberry, orange, and mint.And throughout the year we have seasonal limited edition fragrances. Like here we have watermelon and we have, uh, chocolate here. And, uh, I think there might be, well you don't see it in this picture, but we have like passion for it or pineapple. So just trying to make flossing delightful and fun.Trying to turn a chore into a treat and make flossing into something that you look forward to and that you wanna do. Michael: Gotcha. Okay. And so you guys, I know in some pediatric practices that we work with, like cocoa flosses in there, is there like a specific different price for practices compared to like, somebody from cvs?Chrystle: Yeah, so we do have a dental sales program where we are selling direct to dentists. They get to order this size, this small size. It's like an eight yard, and it's like about a two week supply. And usually dentists are putting that into their hygiene goody bags. And we also have the 33 yard size, which is what people can buy to anthropology or at cvs and.Practices are buying that at about half price and then they resell it to their patient for retail price. And then also we have like a large school that's like a professional size that, clinicians are using chairside and they use it in their procedures for all the perio procedures and also even restorative procedures.Michael: Okay, so it's available for them? Yeah, it's available for them, yeah. Nice. Okay. So I guess. How can this, cuz I remember when I was working in a couple practices, like water picks was like coming up and it was like, this is it. Right? Is that something where you're like, okay, this is our, not competition, but like, how does that work?Chrystle: Well, I mean, I, I think water picks are great. I don't have anything against water pick at all, but I don't believe that they're of true replacement for flossing. I think it's a great adjunct. unfortunately, I've had some patients, say that they were water picking exclusively and not flossing, and I've seen recurrent caries around usually like multi-unit restorations like bridges or even interproximal caries.And so, I don't know. I, I just don't know that the water pick can always get underneath rest restorations or in between teeth in the same way that floss can physically deprive those areas. Mm-hmm. So I, it's not yeah. Not a replacement, but water pick's a great adjunct. Michael: Yeah, because we were water picking.Me and my wife are like a really, I still do it, but she's the one who. I'm gonna floss too because I'm, you know what I mean? And so I was like, okay. Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know, double clean, I guess, but I didn't know that until you just told me right now. So, Chrystle: yeah, I mean that, of course curious doesn't afflict every patient, but I, I've seen it enough times where I can't tell a patient I can't do it.Like, consciously, like, you know, I like to tell a patient they, oh yeah, you can just water pick. I, I won't, I can't feel good about it because I've seen the carries that people get still with using water. Michael: Gotcha. What have you seen with people using cocoa floss with their marketing, like dental practices?How have they used it in a, like a unique way or a different way that, you know, maybe like brings better brand awareness or even attracts new patients, things like that. Chrystle: Yeah, so I've seen a lot of practices use Coco Foss as, one, as a way to draw patients to the practice. For example, I've seen patients, uh, practices, offer, let's say like a Yelp check-in reward, check in on Yelp and get a Coco Foss.So, gonna incentivizes people to check in on Yelp and, and usually these people who check in on Yelp eventually write a review, which as we mentioned is, can be really impactful for growing a business or growing a. I also see practices using cocoa floss. To display in the, the front desk. The, the display that we have, it's like a jar and it's the colors of Coco Foster candy.Like, so, de that feeling of delight that you have like walking into a candy shop or like walking into a florist where there's like this explosion of color. Like, why don't have that in the dental office? Because dental offices are typically thought of as like sterile, cold and fear-inducing places.So when a patient walks into a practice and they. Oh, well that's kind of a nice surprise. Like it's an uplifting type of color to see. It kind of, it helps ease anxiety and helps kind of make the patient a little happier. So the PA um, practices will have the Coco FLS in the front desk area and they'll be, selling it.And then in the. back um, in the chair side, when a patient is floss with cocoa floss, it feels so different. And usually patients just like, what is that? Mm-hmm. Because unlike a slippery floss, like a, like the Teflon types of floss and that are so slippery and thin and then they actually kind of can hurt sometimes when you floss.Mm-hmm. Yeah. Your gums and they make your gums lead. Coco fo is, it's thicker and it feels much more substantial and it's scarier. So, your hygienist, your dentist will floss with it. And it's like, whoa, what is that? Because your teeth feels so clean instantly, and it also smells good because plaque smells disgusting.And then, you have this like waft of like sweet strawberries and the patient's like, oh, that's really nice. Yeah. that it makes a difference. And then again, with the hygiene bags, if a patient, uh, sent home with a coco brush and a coco floss it really tells the patient like, wow.This practice really cares about using the best quality materials. they're giving me this amazing product. So, it speaks volumes about the values of the practice and then it, it becomes like a, a another reason for the patients to talk about it with their friends and family and refer more patients to the.Michael: Hmm. Do you guys help the practice, I guess like the back office or anything, like when they order coco floss, do you guys help 'em with that? Like maybe the rep or anything? Chrystle: Yeah. Yeah. We do have a little sales team and um, we obviously like really wanna help, help practices become successful with coco floss, so.Mm-hmm. We are doing everything we can to handhold as much as we need to um, handhold practices through making it successful in our. Michael: Man. It's cool how, uh, crystal, like throughout this conversation you can still see like the, when you were younger and you're like the volunteering kind of thing where you're just like, I just wanna help people out, kind of thing.Right. That's it Still today, like you're just like, I just wanna help people out. Like I wanna hold their hand in. Yeah. It's cool. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I wanted to ask you one of the last questions. Throughout this process, I guess, from the moment you decided to own a practice mm-hmm. To. What's been some of your biggest struggles or fails or pitfalls?Chrystle: Well, for the longest time, I mean certainly time management is something that I had, I've had to get really good at, but I've. Also struggled with the feeling of guilt because when I was working at the dental practice, I'd feel guilty about coco floss or if I'm working at Coco floss, I feel guilty about the dental practice.Or for either of them, if I'm working more than, more than I should be, than I'm guilty about not spending time with my family. So that's something that I. Struggle with I'm getting better about it, and it's super helpful that I have a very supportive family. And we just do everything together.Like, for example, I mentioned like schlepping boxes everywhere. Like my kids at this point have, come with me to dental meetings and they're, they're with me on these rides where we have like the whole minivan filled with boxes. So that's, but yeah, guilt has been something that I've, I've struggled with, but I, I think that this is all just a part of who I am and I'm always working on.Michael: Yeah. How are you work? Like I know like right now you let go of the practice, but I, you know, a lot of people do, I guess, talk about, especially parents like mom guilt, right? I guess how are you working on that? Like what advice can you give us for that Chrystle: advice? So I just, focus on, one of my personal.For myself and what are the things that I care about and my passions and, and I just make sure that all of the things that I'm doing in my day-to-day align towards that goal. the good thing is that despite letting go of my practice, I do feel like my, you know, my professional goal in life is to help people achieve teeth for life.And so I, I believe that I'm continuing to do that, so I don't have to feel so guilty about letting the practice go, cuz it doesn't ha again, as I mentioned, it doesn't have to be me going in and, and treating. Patients, like I have other doctors who could do that. And here I'm, leading this brand growth and hopefully hopefully inspiring even more people to um, take better care of their teeth.So just focusing on the goals, like what are your, and then that's really hard and it's something that you probably, I think people should at least revisit at least annually. And just think about like, what is it that you're passionate about and what are the goal, your goals, and then how can you align all of your daily actions and how you spend your time towards those goals.Michael: Mm-hmm. Have you ever caught yourself? It's changing constantly. Like maybe not constantly, but like pivoting and you're like, oh my gosh. And then you feel like what you've done in the past, you're like, I guess that was, some of it was pointless. You know what I mean? Kind of thing. Or cuz my goal pivoted.Has that ever Chrystle: happened to you or? Um, I try not to have too many regrets, but I, I'll say I have a lot of fomo. A lot of fomo. I mean, I actually really love clinical dentistry. I had so much fun being able to transform health and transform, you know, my patients. In terms of like confidence. I love Invisalign, for example.I became totally obsessed with Invisalign, and I miss that. I miss that time with my patients and being able to like, really make an impact in their lives. So there's my FOMO and I, I don't know what I'm gonna do with it yet. The, the practice sale was very recent.I don't know yet. I'm gonna own another practice in the future if I'll, you know when I'm gonna, Start working again in clinical dentistry. my baby is very young, and so it doesn't make sense at this time. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I, I don't know. We'll see. Michael: Awesome. Crystal, thank you so much for being with us.It's been a pleasure. But before we say goodbye, can you tell our listeners where they can find you? Chrystle: Of course. So I'd love it if you would follow us on Instagram. Our handle is get coco floss. Our website for all of your patients is coco floss.com. And for dental professionals you can find us@cocoflosspro.com.And if you'd ever wanna reach out to us you can just email us@helpcocofloss.com. Michael: Awesome. So guys, that's all gonna be in the show notes below, so definitely check it out. And Crystal, thank you for being with us. It's been a pleasure and we'll hear from you soon. Likewise. Chrystle: Thank you.‍

Regular listeners of Unstoppable Mindset have heard me a number of times talk with guests I met at the Podapalooza event. Podapalooza is a quarterly event to help new and regular podcasters, people who want to be interviewed on podcasts as well as podcasters who want to find guests to interview. I have met a number of guests through Podapalooza including our guest today, Samantha Rawlinson.   I describe Samantha as a “growing nurse” because “growing” mentally and workwise is exactly what Samantha is doing. She has been a registered nurse for more than 30 years. As you will hear, now she also is the CEO of Samantha Rawlinson Coaching. She formed this company to help women deal with chronic illness. This choice was not something she chose on a whim. She will tell you all about it. You will hear about the kind of work she does as well as how she does it. I find her efforts inspiring. I hope you do as well.   By the way, if you have an interest in attending the next Podapalooza event, please visit https://mikehingson--checkingout.thrivecart.com/podapalooza-aff/. The next Podapalooza event takes place on April 26, 2023. I hope to see you there.     About the Guest:   Samantha Rawlinson is a Registered Nurse, Health & Wellness Coach, Speaker, and CEO of Samantha Rawlinson Coaching.    She helps women to resolve or control their chronic illness. She also helps women prevent chronic illnesses such as obesity, heart disease, Type 2 diabetes, Fatty liver disease, and arthritis to name a few.    With more than 30 years as a Registered Nurse, she has seen how these diseases take over a person's life. Samantha developed a program that involves nutrition, mindset, and lifestyle to help women take control of their health by nourishing their mind, body, and spirit so they can live their best life yet!   How to Connect with Samantha:   Facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1015212306038416   Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100076500090740   Instagram https://www.instagram.com/samantharawlinsoncoaching/   LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/samantha-rawlinson-380841a/         About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:20 Well, hi, once again, thanks for being here with us. I really appreciate you joining us and we have a wonderful guest today on unstoppable mindset. Samantha Rawlinson, who has been a nurse for 30 years has done a lot dealing with especially women's issues, and she's going to talk to us about chronic illness and chronic kinds of issues and nursing things and she's going to tell her life story as well. My gosh, that'll take us a while right. Anyways, Samantha Welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. And I should tell everyone, I met Samantha through the potter Palooza program. We've talked about that a number of times before. And we've gotten some really wonderful interviews out of that. And I know we're going to have another one today. So welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Samantha Rawlinson  02:05 Thank you for having me.   Michael Hingson  02:07 Well, let's start as usual, can you just tell us a little about you, maybe your life story growing up or anything like that, that you think we should know? And? And anything we shouldn't know? You can add that in if you want.   Samantha Rawlinson  02:18 Okay, well, I think people will be surprised to know that I have wanted to be a nurse since I was nine years old. And school was not always easy for me. So it was a it was a journey. But I did it. And I was very proud of myself that I was able to do that. As for how I got to where I'm at right now is I actually had a back injury back in 2001. And I'm working as a nurse, which is very common working as a nurse. I can't tell you how many back injuries there are.   Michael Hingson  02:55 Exactly, you have to lean over a lot, and so on Exactly. And   Samantha Rawlinson  02:59 that's exactly what mine was, it was leaning over, it wasn't even picking something up in after it happened and went to physical therapy. And about a month later, I was in a car accident, and it felt better the next day. And so fast forward to 2005 and we had just moved in. So my back hurt in a specific area. It wasn't like it was lower back pain. I knew it was this specific injury because it was in the scapular area. So it's not an area you really enjoy very often. And since then, from 2005 on, I have tried everything out there and I basically got sick of the traditional health care system and took things into my own hands. And during all of that, I've tried everything from traditional medicine to over the counter medicine and even some of the woowoo stuff is what some of the people are calling it nowadays, the energy healing and that type of thing. And I really truly believe a lot of that does work. But what really got me here was, I'd say three years ago 2020 i The literally January 1, I watched the game changer show on Netflix, and learn how bad heart disease was and how animal eating animals how bad it is for our hearts and for diabetes, and I literally stopped eating meat the next day. So during COVID I learned how to eat vegan my daughter already was and we that's where my my real journey began with trying to fix my back pain and trying to prevent heart disease was how I was eating. I learned how to meditate. I learned how to do what I like called Emotional Freedom Technique is also called tapping and journaling. And I had an epiphany that I wanted to teach women how to take control of their life and how to take control of their chronic illness. Because it can be done.   Michael Hingson  05:17 Obviously, being a woman, you're going to focus on women, I appreciate that. But do you? Do you help men as well? Or why do you focus specifically on women?   Samantha Rawlinson  05:26 Why I chose a woman was because women do not realize it. Heart disease is the number one killer in women in the United States. And it's often overlooked in women. Whereas men we we see it in with women, it occurs like a lot later than it does in men. So it's overlooked and kind of pushed aside. And I really thought it was important to teach women to take control of their health and to look for the signs and symptoms.   Michael Hingson  05:58 But I just want to follow through on it, because I'm just Just curious more than anything else. Don't men basically behave the same way?   Samantha Rawlinson  06:08 Yes, and no, their symptoms are different. They tend to have things checked out. They don't overlook certain health problems, like women do that like chest pain to them, they're gonna go check. Women are like, Oh, I'm, I'm anxious. I'm, you know, they kind of brushed it under the rug. And so to your other question, yes, I will help men. My focus is women, but I'm not going to turn anybody around if they want to fix themselves, I will definitely help.   Michael Hingson  06:40 The reason I kind of asked about men is that I hear the whole concept of men are macho, and they kind of ignore things a lot of times too. And that's why I asked the question, but what you're saying is typically speaking, and maybe it's because of all the publicity and all of the, the visibility it's gotten, men have been a little bit more programmed to to check it out. But it just seems to me there are a lot of people, a lot of men that also tend to ignore things because they're supposed to be tough.   Samantha Rawlinson  07:12 Yeah, I think with men, it is very obvious when they're having a cardiac event, it's really pronounced, whereas women, they don't get it as pronounced as a man would. It's subtle, it's quiet, and they don't always catch it.   Michael Hingson  07:30 So what happens when you let's say, you're having a heart attack or cardiac event with women, as opposed to what we typically see with men and so on.   Samantha Rawlinson  07:39 So with, people don't realize this, but a lot of times the pain in your left shoulder can be a sign of a heart attack, and we disregard it is oh, I hurt myself or, you know, also indigestion is another one, and that goes for men to men. And on that one, they'll they'll push it aside and take all these times and all these antacids, and here they've been having many heart attacks for who knows how long   Michael Hingson  08:13 the acids have been helped. And they just think, Oh, they're not really helping all that much. But as you said there, something else is really going on.   Samantha Rawlinson  08:21 Right, and they don't check it out.   Michael Hingson  08:24 Well, in general, so you're talking about heart disease and so on, but what, what overall is the whole concept of chronic illness?   Samantha Rawlinson  08:34 So that's a very good question. So chronic illness is typically a long term condition that doesn't have not it doesn't always have a cure. It's something that lasts more than three months. So chronic pain can be a chronic illness because if it doesn't go away, it's something that's with you. So it's chronic. A lot of times chronic illnesses can be I think are controlled but not cured. But in sometimes it can be reversed depending on what the chronic illnesses a lot of times chronic illnesses, inflammation in the body. And once we treat that inflammation, sometimes we can actually either reverse or at least control that chronic illness.   Michael Hingson  09:21 How is Western medicine overall dealing with chronic illness? I've interviewed a number of people on unstoppable mindset and a number through PATA Palooza who talk a lot about how they've also embraced some of the precepts and concepts of Eastern medicine that made a whole lot more of a difference than Western medicine and dealing with theirs and other people's issues.   Samantha Rawlinson  09:45 Well, I think we tend to give too much medication and then you have side effects from that medication so you give more medication and that seems to be the fix whereas we're not that And in all fairness to doctors, they don't have the time because of the way our system is set up. But nutrition and meditation mindset can make a huge difference in controlling a lot of illnesses. Nutrition alone can it can reverse things and control a lot of what you have.   Michael Hingson  10:29 So talking about meditation, and so on brings up the whole concept of stress and just dealing with our mental well being, and so on. And I would presume that if we could work to cut back stress and put it in perspective, as opposed to letting everything stress us out, that ought to help a lot as well.   Samantha Rawlinson  10:48 Oh, my gosh, yes, it would. So it's interesting that you bring up stress, because I just read a I guess, not a survey, but a article, Carnegie Mellon University discovered, there's a link between chronic psychological stress and the body's ability to regulate inflammatory responses. So that being said, the body responds to stress and not all stress is bad. I know it sounds crazy, and there is a YouTube video, and I wish I would have looked it up for you, on this lady who used to talk about how terrible stress was for you. And then she has totally reversed her take on it. Because some stress can be good. It's when you let all those stressors add up. And they build and build and building note take care of them. That's when they become bad.   Michael Hingson  11:50 A lot of what I see when I discuss stress and talk about stress, and also experience it, although I tried to work on this, what I see is that stress is mostly, at least in the beginning, self imposed, we, we worry about so many things, we don't stop going back to meditation, we don't meditate. We don't take time at the end of the day to look at the day and analyze what happened and say to ourselves, gee, this happened that wasn't great. Rather than beating ourselves up over it. How do we improve it in the future? We don't we don't deal with mindfulness. I guess that's maybe the best way to put it. And so as a result, we promote the stress.   Samantha Rawlinson  12:38 Yeah, yes, I agree with that. Totally. I think we don't take time to stop and take care of ourselves. And self care is so important. And like you said, at the end of the day can be something as simple as watching the sunset or journaling, reading a book doing something for you in this society right now. I think we are always on the go. And we go all day till we collapse.   Michael Hingson  13:07 Yeah, it's interesting. I, I have been using guide dogs since I was 14. And one of the things that I've learned about having a dog's both lab and Golden Retrievers is that they can be very stoic, they can put up with an awful lot. And you never know anything is wrong. Until they drop, they will work till they drop. They're there. They're committed. And clearly, the stress that we experience doesn't tend to be with dogs. And maybe there's something to be learned from that. The other side of it is that they don't necessarily easily tell us when they're feeling not well. And so we get surprised when suddenly they can't work anymore. And I think that's true of, of a lot of dogs. I had one dog that in 1996, we moved to New Jersey, and she was bitten by a tick and hyperbole early. Well. It had to be in spring of 1997. And two years later, we had flown to Southern California for a meeting and came back and came in on Saturday. And she was she seemed fine. But Saturday night she couldn't even get up and come down to eat dinner. And we learned that what happened is that she had contracted Lyme disease that morphed into glomerular nephritis. And so literally, she was starving to death because the kidneys were passing out all the good stuff along with the bad stuff. She had to retire, but gave no real clue. And there had to be some symptoms or some things that she was feeling. But she was so focused on pleasing and working that she never really gave us an indication of it. And so they don't deal with stress the same way we do by any means. And there are pluses and minuses to that. That is so true. And so the thing that we have or ought to develop is the ability to analyze and become more aware of us and our surroundings and what goes on inside of us, which is, I think what you're really saying,   Samantha Rawlinson  15:23 yes, and even during the day, if we learn the tools to help us even throughout the day, for one, recognizing, Hey, I am stressed right now, pull yourself out of that situation and just do a simple breathing technique, breathe in for four out for four. And it just taking that time, can like decrease your stress enough to be like, Okay, I've recognized this, I feel better, I can continue, we just let it build and build to the point that we get sick.   Michael Hingson  15:59 As much as anything dealing with stress is a conscious kind of a process. And we can deal with most stress. It's like fear. And I'm in the process of writing a book about fear because having survived being in the World Trade Center on September 11. I've talked about fear a lot. But what I've never really done is taught people some of the techniques that I have learned throughout the years, and that I learned on unexpectedly about dealing with September 11. And so when the the terrorist attack, I was able to focus, because I had developed a mindset that told me that I knew what to do in an emergency, if there was the ability to do it, as opposed to if the building wasn't crashing down around us, which wouldn't have mattered anyway, then. But the fact is that you can control fear and fear can be a good thing. It's all about how you choose to deal with it. And I think that's so true, whether it's fear or stress, which are related, it is all about what you choose to do about it and how you choose to prepare to live from day to day.   Samantha Rawlinson  17:09 It is that is so true. Because your mindset can really just can make your day good or bad.   Michael Hingson  17:18 But that is a choice that you can make no matter what's going on.   Samantha Rawlinson  17:21 Oh, exactly. But people have lived in that stressful state for so long. They don't know how to reverse it, and how how to get back to a normalized state. And I know for me that I, I learned that during COVID, whereas a lot of people were panicked. I, I actually embraced it and and learned a lot about myself and how I want it to be   Michael Hingson  17:57 well, and COVID is a perfect example of that a time when so many people went into a fear response, because they had to experience an unexpected life change, and didn't have any control over it. And our problem also is we think we have to control everything. And so as a result, we don't deal with things very well.   Samantha Rawlinson  18:21 Isn't that the truth? Yeah, I is funny, because I'm somebody who's always wanting to control things in AF over the last few years. I've just kind of I mean, there's still aspects of my life, I want want some control over but I've learned to just relax. And if things happen, I can't control everything. I'm not going to make myself sick over it.   Michael Hingson  18:47 Right? It's it's important to learn what you can control and what you can't control. And don't worry about what you can control because it's only going to cause you Here we go again, stress and fear.   Samantha Rawlinson  18:58 Exactly. And the other big thing that I love to tell people I learned this, probably way too late for one by I learned this when my kids were a little bit older is to learn to say no. Because I would do anything that came my way, Mike Yes, I'll do that. I'll do that. And I was always involved in their school stuff. And at one point I said, I can't do this anymore. I'm making myself tired. And you have to know when to say no.   Michael Hingson  19:32 And you've got to take time for you to write, do you go to church or do anything in the religious world?   Samantha Rawlinson  19:40 I don't go to church i i journal I am more spiritual. And I like to I love my morning nature time. I like to sit outside morning and just connect with nature.   Michael Hingson  19:59 The reason I asked that Question is that you probably then wouldn't be familiar with a with a program that the Methodist Church began called the walk to Emmaus, which is an outgrowth of a Catholic program called crucio. It's a short course in Christianity intended to develop people who are Christian, into Christian leaders. It's, it's a program not to indoctrinate, if you will, or to bring somebody into a church, but to help develop leadership. The program is a four day program where you go to a place and a number of other people go who have never been on this, as the Methodists call it walk to Emmaus before. And it's called a walk to amass, because if you've read the Bible, there was a time after Jesus arose from the grave, where he walked on the road to Emmaus and met some people. They didn't know who he was. And he went with them to Emmaus, and they sat down to eat. And it was at that point that suddenly he revealed himself and they realized who he was, and he disappeared. So this is a journey to if you will amass, and what they do when you get there is they take your watch, and they tell you right at the outset, you don't have to worry about anything here, you don't have control, you don't need control, everything is taken care of. If you have any questions or concerns, you can ask, but we're telling you now that everything will be done that needs to be done. Even your families have people checking in on them, you don't have to worry about having control over anything. So I went on the walk. And then later I was a director of one of the walks. And it's interesting to observe the people who couldn't let go. And it's even more interesting to observe the people who really could let go and embraced it, and how they progressed, Christianity or not how they progressed in their own lives, because they learned that they really could let go of so many things. Wow. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it's a very powerful program. It is a really cool program. And the whole idea is that you trust you learn to trust, and we, we have so many challenges with trust. Well, I went to that program in. I think it was 1991. And it was a challenge at first to give up my watch, because I'm used to looking at my watch and the time, I don't need to do that. But I like to just keep tabs on things. It's like, if I had to shut down and not use a computer for a day, I could do it. And I know there are a lot of people who can't. And like I realized fairly quickly Yeah, I don't need my watch. Not gonna worry about it. They said, don't worry about it. I'm going to try it. And it was really a great experience all the way around.   Samantha Rawlinson  23:00 Yeah, I know a lot of people who would not be able to get through that.   Michael Hingson  23:04 Well, you remember the the the device, the Blackberry? Yeah. And Research In Motion one day, lost their servers and lost communications with blackberries. And I think it was like about 12 hours, blackberries didn't work. And I understand that this was fortunately more at night. But I understand that even some people committed suicide because they didn't have access to their BlackBerry's   Samantha Rawlinson  23:26 what that is crazy.   Michael Hingson  23:29 We get so locked into doing things a certain way that we don't work on figuring out alternatives. I have been a member of the National Federation of the Blind for many years, it's the largest consumer organization of blind people. And a gentleman named Dr. Jonathan Lazar, who worked at the time at Towson University, came and spoke to the Federation and said, one of the interesting things that he has found about blind people who interact with the internet, is that blind people tend to be a little bit more patient, and a little bit more persistent about dealing with a net, especially when things aren't working quite right, because we're so used to not having full access, that we in fact, will work harder at trying to get access. And if we can't, you know, we can't. But we, we do that, and I think it's changing as the internet becomes more accessible. But it is it is interesting, how many of us recognize that we don't have the same access to computer information that other people do. And while it's frustrating, we can control our mindset about that and we go on and we look for other ways to get the data. Right but you know, when I when I hear about kids in the backseat of their parents cars texting each other right Other than talking, I know sometimes they don't want their parents to hear what they're saying, but gee, you know, aren't they taking things to a limit? Or beyond a limit? So that's for sure. It's an interesting evolving world. So how does chronic illness affect people's lives? What? And how? And what kind of advice would you give to somebody who's got something that, that maybe they discover? Or how do they discover that if they have a chronic illness?   Samantha Rawlinson  25:29 So people with chronic illnesses? Look at for I'm trying to figure out what part of that to answer first. So I'm going to start with just listing a few chronic illnesses that way you listeners know kind of what I'm talking about when it that's affects their life, and things that are listed under chronic illness. And this is just a few there's a lot. obesity, heart disease, diabetes, irritable bowel syndrome, that can be very debilitating for some people, fatty liver disease and chronic pain. And those are just a few. There's a lot more than that. These people that have these chronic illnesses, they are on a roller coaster, they can feel guilty because they haven't been taking care of themselves. They're distressed, they're hopeless, they're frustrated, anxious, angry and depressed, so that they can go through all these emotions in one day when they're not feeling well. They are individuals who have chronic illness also have to face the worry of money, because they have all these doctor's appointments and medications and time off from work. So they're dealing with a lot, a lot of emotional, physical, and social issues having a chronic illness. So that they have days where they just can't get out of bed, they they have days, when they're, they're feeling good, they feel great. And then they wake up the next day. And they're like, Well, what did I do yesterday to feel so bad. And it depends on the chronic illness, an example of diabetes, these people have to watch their glucose levels on a constant basis, they have to be very consistent with their diet and exercise. When they don't, and they slack off, their chronic illness gets out of control. So it can affect your life in so many ways. And somebody who has a chronic illness knows what I'm talking about, what is the   Michael Hingson  27:42 best thing that people can do in general to if they are if they do have a chronic illness? What what's the best thing for them just normally to do about it?   Samantha Rawlinson  27:52 For one, get your nutrition under control, which is a hard one for especially here in the US, we are very bad about picking something up and eating it. Um, nutrition exercise, your mindset can make a huge difference. Your lifestyle, sleeping, we already talked about stress, all these things all work together, and we are really bad about not regulating them all.   Michael Hingson  28:28 One of the things that we tend to do when we feel it seems to me anyway, when we feel that something is bothering us is that we kind of go on to our shells, we don't move, we don't do anything. That doesn't seem like it's a very healthy thing to do either.   Samantha Rawlinson  28:46 No, it is a terrible thing to do. And I'll be quite honest. You know, just because I'm a health coach doesn't mean I'm perfect on days that I'm having pain, I have to physically remind myself and I'll have my husband Tommy, okay, you need to walk you need to go stretch. I may not feel like it. But I know I have to do it because if I don't, I'm just going to be in more pain. And when you're in the midst of that chronic illness, you you need that support system or you need a way of learning how to cope in the Emotional Freedom Technique. It's also called tapping that is one thing that has really helped me but movement is very important, whether it's exercising if you're able to because we exercise is good for us. It decreases our chances of having heart disease, strength training, especially for women. And when I mean strength training, I don't mean you have to go and lift a huge amount of weights. lightweights on a daily basis are really important especially for women because women over 50 during menopause, get osteoporosis. So strength training is really important. And then flip, everybody needs to do flexibility. And that's just stretching. And yoga helps with that significantly, because you can find on YouTube, just light yoga things for anybody.   Michael Hingson  30:21 Tell me more about tapping, if you would, please. Yeah.   Samantha Rawlinson  30:24 So now I'm not somebody, I'm not a practitioner. But it's something I discovered, right around the COVID. Time. And what you do is you tap on meridians and your meridians go through your body. And the places you tap are like your head, your eyebrow, the side of your eye, under your eye, under your nose, under your chin, and your collarbone. And your meridians run all along these lines. And with tapping, you start with the negative and you you go through these tapping points and talk, you talk through the points of all the negativity that you're dealing with right now. And then you go back through the points, and you talk about the positive in and bring the positive around in. I can't tell you how much it has helped me with pain because it can bring my pain level from an eight down to a four in one session.   Michael Hingson  31:28 That's pretty dramatic. It really is. Why does that happen?   Samantha Rawlinson  31:34 Our bodies have energy, we're, we have energy all around us. And this is something that I think we need to look more and more into the eastern medicine really looks into the you know, does this type of stuff more than we do here. And energy healing is a real thing. It helps. And when you put that positive energy into it, it just, it turns things around for you. And you can use tapping for anything, you can use it for anxiety, depression, I'm having a bad day. I'm just trying to think of some of the you can use it for anything, you name it, you can use it.   Michael Hingson  32:19 It's it's all about it seems to me once again, redirecting what is going on in your mind. And it's getting you to refocus, and deal with against stress or whatever is happening or the the illness and taking away from the negative aspects of it. So it's all about a mental adjustment, it seems to me,   Samantha Rawlinson  32:44 it is it's hard to change your mental mentality all on your own. I know because I've really worked on it. And I work on it every single day.   Michael Hingson  32:55 Yeah. And it's, again, all about what we're taught, how do we how do we start to get our overall environment to change the way we deal with stress and all of these things to make all some of this go away? And that is I guess what I'm getting at is, collectively we're teaching ourselves to be so stressed and to be so frustrated and to have so many challenges. How do we deal with that?   Samantha Rawlinson  33:23 I think we need to as human beings, we need to come to that point of Okay, enough is enough. I've had it. I need to either learn how to do this on my own or find somebody who can teach me because we always we all get to a breaking point that we just can't do it anymore.   Michael Hingson  33:44 So growing up so you've got children, how do you help your children maybe start out, not going down that same path of negativity and stress,   Samantha Rawlinson  33:57 teaching them from the very beginning, which is very hard. If you're somebody who's already in that space and are able to learn this at an early age, teaching them at an early age is also very important. I've always been in the self discovery since I was in my 20s. And so both my children have always kind of been in the same thing. One of my children has anxiety very badly. And she she does a lot of these things to help control her anxiety. And it's not a it's a hormonal anxiety. It's something she inherited. So you can learn these things, but you have you have to want to learn them and so as a parent, I would teach my children then because you're giving them an advantage.   Michael Hingson  34:53 I was happy working for you with your children.   Samantha Rawlinson  34:55 It my Yeah, my oldest child. She's 25 And let me tell you She is far better at this because she's learned it from an early age.   Michael Hingson  35:08 are better at it than you, huh?   Samantha Rawlinson  35:10 Oh, yeah. Yeah. But that's because, you know, I was able to figure it out and go, Okay, I don't I don't want to do this. I don't I didn't want to teach my kids in. Do they have bad days? Yes, we all have bad days. But I know she's able to control herbs. My, my younger child who's 20? She's still she's still working on it.   Michael Hingson  35:36 Yeah, it still comes down to how we allow our surroundings, our environments to affect us. And it sounds like your, your older daughter is has accepted the fact that we can deal with this a little bit more in your younger one, it sounds like is still sort of not totally the point of saying, I can separate myself from a lot of this materialistic stuff.   Samantha Rawlinson  36:02 Right? She's still maturing, and she's in college, which makes it hard to separate do that separation?   Michael Hingson  36:09 Yeah, it is one of those things that that again, is all about choice, we choose to do it or we choose not to. And that is up entirely to us.   Samantha Rawlinson  36:22 It really is.   Michael Hingson  36:25 So you mentioned movement before and you mentioned exercise, is there a difference between just movement and dealing with chronic illness and exercise?   Samantha Rawlinson  36:35 So yes, there is. So we are bad, especially right now, because a lot of us are on Zoom calls, a lot of us work from home or work. Even people who work in the office, were bad about sitting at a desk for eight hours, that's a long time for your body to sit. Movement, you need to get up and move. And I don't mean you have to go run for 30 minutes, I mean, every hour, you need to get up and move your body, I don't care if it's walking down to the bathroom or walking outside for five minutes, we really should be moving on an hourly basis to keep the body moving. Because it prevents you. It helps your body from getting stiff, it keeps you flexible. And it just keeps you healthy.   Michael Hingson  37:28 I will say my Apple Watch yells at me because even when I get up to 4000 or 4500 steps, it says you don't take enough steps, which is probably true. But I do believe in moving around. And I do mainly work at home and from home. And right now especially my wife has been dealing with some medical issues with a serious wound from probably a pressure sore in her wheelchair. And it got so serious that it actually went to the bone and chose he was in the hospital for a month. So I keep a close eye on her. And we have caregivers that are that are now helping. But still moving around is important because as I've heard a number of times over the years people and talking about caregivers, and family members who are caregivers, you've got to take time for you too. Because if you don't you're not going to be a good caregiver and you're gonna eventually have your own serious issues.   Samantha Rawlinson  38:30 That is so true. Caregivers are the worst about taking care of themselves as our nurses. Because we're caregivers.   Michael Hingson  38:40 Yes. Yeah, by any standard you are. Yeah. And COVID. Again, and we talked about it earlier, has offered challenges, but it has offered opportunities. And I think there's a lot to be learned from doing more work ins, doing zoom calls, doing zoom meetings, we're finding out that you don't have to necessarily be in the office for eight hours a day, five days a week, you can and there's a lot of potential and being more productive by having time to work at home. But, but you also have to be disciplined enough to take advantage of the opportunities that that brings you. That is so true. So it is a major issue that a lot of us have to learn to give ourselves permission to make choices. And maybe that's the real issue is that we don't choose because we don't give ourselves permission to make choices.   Samantha Rawlinson  39:40 Right? That is so true. And we don't make we don't give ourself permission to make the right choices. Yeah. For some, for a lot of people. The easier route is the supposedly the better but I don't know where we got into that because it's not always better. Tell me more if you With, well, for instance, food, that, you know, we think, Oh, it's so easy just to run to the store and get this and this and that I don't have to make dinner. And I had that mentality. And I realized, oh my gosh, I can make a meal and 30 minutes, a healthy meal in 30 minutes. Whereas running to the store, getting the food coming home, that was 30 minutes, right there. Yeah. And, and when I cook at home, I, I spend like a fraction of what I would going out, especially right now with an economy. I think that's a big thing.   Michael Hingson  40:38 We used to go not go out a lot, but we would, we would use GrubHub or, or especially during the pandemic, and we will get stuff maybe twice a week. But now we don't, especially with Karen, my wife being the way she you know, she is she doesn't get up much or she doesn't certainly go out. And we're eating just fine. Thank you very much without going out without even ordering in from GrubHub or other services. And there are a lot of things available. But the fact of the matter is that we can produce things at home, and we can be a lot more creative. And it also gives us the time in being creative and being industrious enough to do things at home. It gives us the time to do something that allows us to get away from stress to   Samantha Rawlinson  41:30 Oh, yeah, definitely. And, I mean, there's days I don't feel like cooking, but then I have leftovers and I'm like, hey, I can just throw this together. And I just try to keep the you know, the certain foods in my fridge all the time. And and, you know, once you stop eating things like fried food, you don't want to eat it because it doesn't taste good.   Michael Hingson  41:58 Yeah, it's been not very hard for us to not eat a lot of fried food. And we got an airfryer earlier this year. So that makes the concept of fry food better.   Samantha Rawlinson  42:09 I know. I love my air fryer. So little side note here. My husband has a travel nurse and we we are sometimes in a hotel for weeks on end. We've lived in a hotel for three months at one point in their little kitchenette stuff is to be desired. Let me just say, I have learned how to cook everything out of the air fryer. I've even learned how to make cookies out of an air fryer.   Michael Hingson  42:39 So do you take your air fryer with you to the hotel? Oh, yes. Do you?   Samantha Rawlinson  42:47 Yes, I do. So I've learned how to make a lot of different things. In the airfryer it's kind of comical.   42:54 Well, we have one of these, the airfryer that has a lot of different functions. I have not made cookies. I've been given gifts of cookies that are frozen that you're supposed to. They're partially baked and you put them in and they've come out really well. But I I use it for a lot of stuff. And there's a an accessibe customer accessibe is the company that I work for us. It's a company that makes products that make websites more accessible. And through accessibe I discovered a company called Wild grain. And we did a podcast with the owner of wild grain. They make breads, specifically sourdough breads and very healthy kinds of breads. They started at the beginning or near the beginning of the Pong pandemic, it's wild grain.com. And so they ship nationwide. And the way they actually do it is they create the breads, they par bake them, they send them to you frozen, and then you put them in the oven on and finish the baking. And they're wonderful because the breads come out fresh. And and again, it's also completely healthy, no preservatives compared to other kinds of things. And I have found using the airfryer to create them and to bake them has been a wonderful tool. I'm gonna save some energy to Oh yeah,   Samantha Rawlinson  44:18 I'm excited. I wrote that down. I'm excited. I'm gonna check that out.   Michael Hingson  44:24 It's, uh, oh, it's great. It's a wonderful place. And it's absolutely worth exploring and getting their stuff from In fact, we've got to do an order a little bit later in the month. Yeah.   Samantha Rawlinson  44:36 And actually sourdough bread is actually really good for you sourdough bread, whole grain or whole wheat are the three to look for.   Michael Hingson  44:46 We haven't bought straight white bread for a long time. We we get whole grain bread or now we're really spoiled by the sourdough. And so he We get that in there. Dinner Rolls are wonderful. I haven't tried. In the first box, we got the Sena some sticky buns and I haven't tried them yet. I've got to do that. But I haven't found anything there that we really didn't like at all. It's absolutely scrumptious stuff.   Samantha Rawlinson  45:16 I'm gonna check it out because I love having avocado toast and sourdough. That's like one of my favorite practices.   Michael Hingson  45:23 Now, where are you located?   Samantha Rawlinson  45:25 Right now I'm in Tennessee. I'm originally my husband and I are from Texas. But he says, But yeah, we're in Nashville right now.   Michael Hingson  45:33 Oh, well, the neat thing about wildbrain is what they have done is partnered with bakeries all over the country. So they've given bakeries, their recipes, and they're under contract so that the food is prepared, much closer to you than Boston, where wild grain is located. And it shipped from the closest bakery to wherever you are. So that also helps. Okay, awesome. At the end, if you go, if you go back and look at all of our podcasts, you can find it and you can find the interview with with him and learn his whole story. It's a fascinating story.   Samantha Rawlinson  46:06 Wow, I'm gonna do that. Thank you.   Michael Hingson  46:09 One of the things that I wonder about is you we've talked a lot about food, what are good foods, and not necessarily so good foods for dealing with chronic illness.   Samantha Rawlinson  46:20 So the foods you want to avoid are foods that cause inflammation, so we might as well start with the bad, right. So red meat is red meat and processed meats are not they're very inflammatory. And they really can cause somebody with chronic illnesses, a lot of problems. So I would totally avoid those refined refined grains, white bread, white rice, pie pasta, white pasta, you can get whole wheat pasta now so that that would be a better choice. sodas, it doesn't matter if it's sweetened or unsweetened. I just actually read something with diabetics that unsweetened sodas can actually caused their blood sugars to spike hours later, which I had no idea. And then fried, of course fried foods. So those are the things you really want to avoid, avoid. There's a lot you can eat, that are anti inflammatory. Of course, most of your fruits and vegetables are very good for you. Fatty fishes like a salmon, trout tuna. And talk about anti inflammatory meal, you can take your you know fish like salmon, or trout or tuna and put it on a whole wheat tortilla and add your veggies on it and you have a whole anti inflammatory dinner or lunch right there. So it's super easy to eat that way. There's a lot of herbs and spices that you can use avoid salt at all cost. I think here in the US were really bad about not using spices and herbs and they can make such a difference in your meal. And then I really recommend staying away from the vegetable oils do things like olive oil, avocado oil, those are so much better for you. And then nuts and seeds are really that that's an amazing source of not only protein, but they're anti inflammatory and a great snack.   Michael Hingson  48:38 Yeah, I I know that I have not used a lot. I've never used a lot of salt. Sometimes I over salt by accident. I noticed. And I noticed that a lot. You you can't go completely in your life without salt. But you can certainly you can certainly determine how much you need. My brother was a big salt eater. And I know that wasn't necessarily a good thing to do at all, but it still happened. Yeah, my   Samantha Rawlinson  49:07 husband's terrible with the salt and Mike Pina at least tasted before you salt it.   Michael Hingson  49:12 Yeah. Well, that's it. I mean, yeah. So you need enough salt for cooking. But right now on the other hand, the exception to that rule is popcorn at a movie theater. But that's another story.   Samantha Rawlinson  49:24 Yeah, well, as long as you're not eating it every day, and popcorn is actually one of my most favorite snacks. I just don't put butter on it. And I I do put salt but not a lot.   Michael Hingson  49:37 Yeah, we don't we don't eat that much popcorn. Not as much as we should. But the point is that we don't as a result have a lot of butter on it. But that's pretty cool.   Samantha Rawlinson  49:45 And actually, you know what you can do at home you can put your nutritional yeast you can sprinkle that on it and it tastes like it's it tastes like cheese on it. Yeah, it's very good for you. Cool. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  50:01 So, I would assume that sleep is also something that can help with chronic illness and, and in general, I mean, the things that we're talking about are not just things that work for dealing with chronic illness, but things that give you a better life and help you anyway,   Samantha Rawlinson  50:17 exactly in these things prevent you from getting a chronic illness. So it's important that you start doing these things before you get to that point that you have something that now you have to control. So, yes, sleep is so important for so many reasons, your body really needs that rest, it needs six to eight hours of sleep. And these people who say all I need is four hours of sleep, I'm sorry that you can tell yourself that, but your body needs it.   Michael Hingson  50:46 Yeah. And it has like eight hours asleep.   Samantha Rawlinson  50:50 Oh, same here, I know, when I don't get sleep, I'm not a nice person. So sleep is very important to me. And I know people have a hard time either falling asleep or staying asleep. And with that, I suggest make sure you have a good nighttime routine. You know, turn off the lights, I like to read before bed. So just don't use a bright light or on my Kindle, I turn it to that dark level. So the I reduction, isn't it that I whatever they call that doesn't disturb me. And just have something that relaxes you that you could do before bed if your head if you're if you have a lot going through your head, keep a pad of paper or journal right there at your bed and write things down. That way it you can get it off your mind and be able to relax in in to sleep.   Michael Hingson  51:52 Have you written any books or done any writing to make all of this more widely available to people?   Samantha Rawlinson  51:58 I have not. I'm starting to work on this. Yeah, I'm pretty new at this. But yes, something to work on.   Michael Hingson  52:08 Something definitely to do. Well, I would gather so. So today, are you still nursing? Or what do you do with your world?   Samantha Rawlinson  52:18 So I am now a full time health and wellness coach in helping women but I helping anybody. At that point. If I can help them change their mindset and change their negative behavior behaviors into positive behaviors. I find that it's a success. So no, I'm not working in a hospital or anything like that. But I'm using nursing in a different way right now.   Michael Hingson  52:50 Well, if people want to learn about you, and maybe take advantage of your skills and your services, how do they do that?   Samantha Rawlinson  53:00 I actually have a website. It's SamanthaRawlinson.com. I made a spell please. Yes, it's S A M A N T H A R A W L I N S O N.com. Okay, and all my information is on there. My Facebook group is on there. I did think that Instagram is on there, not that I really get on Instagram anymore. That's become more of a hassle. Yeah, and my emails on there also, and I on my website, there's a place where you can make a direct link to make an appointment for a third free 30 minute call just to see if I can help you.   Michael Hingson  53:49 You have people all over that you work with clients all over? Yes. Great. Well, I really appreciate all of the knowledge and the insights that you've given us and I hope that you who are listening out there, appreciate them as well. I'm sticking with wild grain and good sourdough bread. But that's another story. And I would suggest though, that anyone wants to reach out to Samantha please do so. I don't think we really talked a lot about the fact that I owned I don't know whether I even mentioned it at first that we met Samantha through Podapalooza, again, pata. Podapalooza is a fun program. And it is you have to start a podcast, Samantha.   Samantha Rawlinson  54:34 I guess I do.   54:37 Well, thanks again, Samantha for joining us and thank you for listening. We really appreciate all of you being here. I'd love to hear your thoughts and comments please reach out to me via email at Michaelhi M I C H A E L H I at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or visit our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast and Michael Hingson is M I C H A E L H I N G S O N. We love to hear your comments and your thoughts and we certainly ask that you please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to the podcast. But let us know your thoughts. And if you know of anyone else, including yourself who might want to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, please reach out to me via email. I'd love to hear from you once more. Thanks for listening and we hope to see you again next time.   Michael Hingson  55:35 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. 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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are analyzing the Oscar-winning film "The Whale" starring Brendan Fraser. This one's a doozy! This emotional film stirred up a lot of different, conflicting emotions for Dr. Furey and Portia. While exploring our own sadness and rage, we also discuss the masterful portrayal of depression, binge-eating disorder, childhood abandonment, and end-of-life care. We hope you enjoy! Instagram Analyze Scripts Website Portia Pendleton: Hi. Dr. Katrina Furey: Welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts. I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist, and I'm joined, as always, by my friend and colleague, Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. Thanks for joining us. Once again, or if it's your first time, welcome. Today we are going to be talking about the film by Darren Aranovsky. I think I'm saying that right. The Whale, which recently Brendan Fraser, who stars in this movie, won an Oscar for best actor. So we're pretty excited to talk about it. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Portia Pendleton: Brendan Fraser is, like, all over the place. He just seems so precious. And that's a perfect word to describe. Dr. Katrina Furey: And precious. Portia Pendleton: I like that it means, like I don't know. I want him to be I want. Dr. Katrina Furey: Good taking care of him. I know. I want him to have, like, a serenity garden with a little quiet waterfall and some butterflies. Yeah, that's what I want. Portia Pendleton: And all the awards and accolades that he deserves. So I think a lot of people remember him from Georgia the Jungle, the big shirtless man. And then he was in the Mummy trilogy, and then he kind of stalled for a bird. Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought maybe he just was like, all right, I'm done now. Portia Pendleton: Yes. I think we've learned more recently I don't think that this really came out of the time, but he did report a sexual assault in 2003 by Philip Burke, who was the then Hollywood Foreign Press Association president. So I think this kind of piggybacked on what we've seen before with the MeToo movement and what's the guy's name? Dr. Katrina Furey: Harvey Weinstein. Portia Pendleton: Like a Harvey Weinstein kind of situation. And I think Brendan Fraser can be added and welcomed into the Me, too. He put himself out there as a young man, 30s, back in the day, and what happened is really normal then, right. It kind of got brushed in the rug. He was blackballed by the industry. His name was not brought up for things. And I think it's just such, like, a beautiful story that now he got this opportunity and he just, like, knocked out of the park. I mean, he got, I think, an eleven minute standing ovation when this film was shown at the Sundance Film Festival. People are just loving him and his performance. Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think it's kind of shocking, right, to see someone who was like George of the Jungle or in these other shore roles that weren't so deep and emotional to really perform in that way. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Dr. Katrina Furey: I think there was also some sort of I don't know about controversy. I don't think that's the word I'm looking for. But I don't think he went to the Golden Globes specifically because I don't think he felt supported when all this happened and he continued to take a stand. I was really proud of him for that. Really proud of him for that. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Portia Pendleton: I think he just is. I hope that he's being welcomed back with kind of open arms into a supportive and getting the credit that he. Dr. Katrina Furey: Deserves, and I hope he has some good therapy along the way. Portia Pendleton: So The Whale has kind of, like a little bit of an interesting story. I don't have the details exactly in front of me, so I'm kind of just going to recall it, but it was based on, like, a play, and it was forever. Like, the script has been floating around for, I think, the past 1510 to 15 years. And there's been, like, different directors, different producers, different actors kind of floated around with it at some point. I think that oh, he's the host of the Late Late Night Show. Dr. Katrina Furey: Seth Meyers? No. Portia Pendleton: Steven Colbert. England. Dr. Katrina Furey: The redhead? Portia Pendleton: Yes. Dr. Katrina Furey: No. James Corgan? Portia Pendleton: Yes. Okay. Portia Pendleton: As a potential he was going to play not a good he didn't yeah. Dr. Katrina Furey: I'm really glad I didn't know he was an actor. Portia Pendleton: I don't know. Dr. Katrina Furey: That's what I saw, according to the Internet. Portia Pendleton: So I just think it's an interesting path that both The Whale, in one sense has had and then Brendan Fraser and I feel like they both kind. Dr. Katrina Furey: Of came together like it was meant to be. Wow. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Dr. Katrina Furey: That is nice. Portia Pendleton: So why don't we do, like, a little brief, brief, brief rundown about the premise of the movie? Portia Pendleton: Okay. Portia Pendleton: So if you haven't seen it, but you want to kind of just, like, hear the podcast episode, we'll try to give you some context. Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. But also I think we wanted to include a trigger warning with this episode because The Whale is a really emotional film and we will be talking about some pretty intense themes today, including disordered eating patterns, strained parent, child relationships, abandonment, trauma, and suicide. So we did just want to give that little warning because it is intense. And even if you haven't watched the film yet, again, do so, but just be aware it's intense. Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I definitely was feeling a lot of emotions throughout the movie. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Dr. Katrina Furey: And it's really interesting that we both left the movie feeling very different, but very strong feelings. So we'll talk about that. So the premise I recall from this movie, again, I feel like I was so angry at the end, I've blocked some things out, which is interesting. But basically we see this very obese man and I don't know, we wanted to talk about even what terminology we wanted to use to talk about his character. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Portia Pendleton: So, I mean, there is, like, kind of, I guess a split field with just, like, how to refer to someone who's in, like, a much larger body. I think some people would prefer just to be called fat. This is a fat man. Other people, I think, prefer to use more, like, just medical terminology. And it's like, with non judgment, but just kind of stating more facts most. Dr. Katrina Furey: Likely meet medical criteria for morbid obesity. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Portia Pendleton: So I think maybe we will use interchangeable language throughout the podcast, whether we are referring to him as fat and a large body or morbidly obese, we'd. Dr. Katrina Furey: Be curious to hear your thoughts about what you think about these words and terminology as we talk about these tough issues. So, anyway, Brendan Fraser plays Charlie, who it looks like is a teacher for like, an online college writing course. And he also appears to be somewhat of a hermit. The whole film takes place in his apartment. My husband, he's so witty. He kept saying, like, wow, they really saved money on the budget there. Portia Pendleton: I had that thought after. And again, such a quote unquote low budget film. There's not really per se, like these crazy special effects and all of these sets. It's like they built this set, this home, and we really don't see anything outside of it besides this one flashback. So totally like a beach. But yes, it's like around the apartment. It's in the apartment. It's right outside his apartment door. The parking lot of the apartment, right. Dr. Katrina Furey: And we didn't know for a while was it an apartment or a house. We just start off right in the house and in the home. And then as the film moves on, we see the different rooms and like the one room he's kept locked and things like that. And then at some point, I don't remember exactly how far into the movie, but not right away, we see that he's actually on the second floor. And so, again, that sort of was like, well, okay, now I see why he really doesn't leave because he has a lot of mobility trouble. But so basically, it seems like this film is sort of capturing the last week of his life, right, that he is morbidly obese and dealing with all of the medical consequences that unfortunately come with that. As a physician, I thought they did a really good job accurately depicting that. They depicted hypertensive emergency with his blood pressure being I wrote it down. Actually, I was going to ask you. I wrote it down in my notes. My first note was while he's masturbating. That was a surprise, just real quick. And then the next one's. Blood pressure was 238 over 134. And I have three exclamation points because that is so scary high. Normal blood pressure is around 120 over 80. So that is really high. In us physicians, we really worry about the bottom number, the diastolic number. I mean, we worry about both, but especially the diastolic number. We worry about it when it's between 91 hundred. So 134 is like, really scary high. Like, he could have a stroke. Portia Pendleton: He could have heart attack. Dr. Katrina Furey: He could all the things. And then you see him, like, I. Portia Pendleton: Think. Dr. Katrina Furey: As he ********** or something I thought was having a heart attack. He's wheezing, he's sweating, he's grabbing his chest like he's having chest pain. He's like moving his left arm, indicating it's radiating down there. And I was like, oh, my God, he's having a heart attack. He's not going to die because then the movie will be over. But this is, like, really accurate. And then with his wheezing and his friend who comes over to listen to him, immediately, I thought he's probably in heart failure and his legs are swollen. All of it was really accurate. Portia Pendleton: Right. Dr. Katrina Furey: So, again, from a medical perspective, I thought they did a really good job portraying that. And the struggles of living in such a large body, like with the walker, with the wheelchair, with all the assistive devices, like the four year lift to get in and out of the bed, things to grab things from up high or down low. He alludes at some point to having bed sores and things like that, which is probably true if you're not able to work around too much. So I did think that was spot on. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Portia Pendleton: And I think kind of right away, we are introduced to a couple. Again, not a big cast. Dr. Katrina Furey: There's like five characters. Portia Pendleton: So there's Brendan Fraser, who's Charlie, and then there is his friend, it seems like a longtime friend who is a nurse, I believe, or some kind of medically trained she looks like a nurse. Dr. Katrina Furey: Liz, I think was her name. Portia Pendleton: She was nominated, I believe, played by Hong Chow. And then Thomas, who is this, like, traveling missionary, seems like. But then there's a little bit of a twist at the end. His daughter, who's played by Sadie Singh, Ellie. And then we briefly see Charlie's ex wife and Sadie Singh's. Or Lily's, Ellie's mom, Mary, who was. Dr. Katrina Furey: Played by Samantha Morton. And then we also have Dan, I believe was the name of his partner. Portia Pendleton: Right. Portia Pendleton: And then a little brief character of the delivery person. Dr. Katrina Furey: The delivery person, that's right. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Dr. Katrina Furey: So I got kind of sidetracked summarizing the plot. Did you have anything you wanted to. Portia Pendleton: Add before we dive into we kind of get the feeling that he is a little bit of a hermit. His apartment is really dark, like, windows, shades are drawn, a lot of clutter. Portia Pendleton: Yep, yep. Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe kind of hoarding, but not like kind of hoarding. Portia Pendleton: And then we see him teaching. He doesn't have his camera off. So I'm kind of getting the feeling that he has some shame about his appearance because it's kind of demonstrated to us the camera does work. It's just kind of like a choice that he's not putting it on. Dr. Katrina Furey: I at first thought, Is this during COVID I did, too. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So my first thoughts were like, Whoa, there's masturbating. Is this during COVID And then I was like, wow, like, really interesting. Those were, like, my kind of back and forth. Dr. Katrina Furey: So, anyway, intense feelings right away. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Portia Pendleton: We start to see his health seriously decline. It seems like he appears at first to not want to get to medical help because of worries for cost. We learn later, like some other information around that. But that's what he's telling Liz to not go to the hospital. She's encouraging him. Portia Pendleton: Right. Dr. Katrina Furey: So Liz, who at first we think of as his friend, she's always showing up in scrubs. She has a stethoscope. She seems to be a nurse. She works night shifts, things like that. She's sort of like being his nurse and medical caretaker. Which I kept thinking, like, what a hard position for her, to be sure. But I know, like, toward the end, they were like, oh, wait, you do have this money. You could go to the hospital. Portia Pendleton: Let's be real. Dr. Katrina Furey: The level of care he would need is, like, ICU level of care that is crazy expensive. Like, his bill would be astronomical. Like, the 140 grand or something that he has would not cover it. Portia Pendleton: Maybe like two days is you can afford health insurance. Okay, there we go. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Portia Pendleton: I feel like that's also something that I wanted to spend a little bit. Portia Pendleton: Of time talking about. Portia Pendleton: It's just, like, health insurance and kind of, from our perspectives, his potential barriers, or just like, potential systemic barriers. But my thought was really, like, he might not qualify for Medicaid. Maybe he does make too much. But then I would assume that there is some kind of supplemental insurance or that he would be paying into something. And again, even if he was paying into a high deductible and his deductible was, like, $15,000, that's way less than hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars of his bill. Dr. Katrina Furey: So it's so true. Portia Pendleton: That's where I was a little angry. Kind of like it felt like a little bit of misinformation. While I'm very aware that health insurance can be wildly costly and there's a lot of people who need better care, and that's a barrier. So I think I'm trying to balance both sides of the coin. Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think that is sort of the mixed feelings Charlie stirs up in you, at least for me, is like, you get so frustrated with him that he's not getting help or taking the help that's being offered. And I think that's actually a really good example of that. You do have the funds to get health insurance. Like he said, his expenses are very minimal at that point at somewhere along the way, he could have gotten some help and he hasn't. And so that stirs up some really kind of icky feelings, at least in me. I was feeling really angry with him for a lot of the movie. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Portia Pendleton: And I think that anger is magnified because, again, a part of the storyline is that he is kind of choosing to step back into his daughter's life, which appears that he abandoned her when she was eight, I believe, and kind of left that family to have a partner. Dr. Katrina Furey: It appears that he is gay and. Portia Pendleton: Maybe was in that relationship, as his ex wife discusses, because you just wanted a child. She says that at one point in. Dr. Katrina Furey: The movie, but again, or maybe hadn't really even come out to himself yet. We see. This totally happened, right? So again, it's like, gosh, this movie really stirs up a lot of big feelings because it's like you understand the wife's perspective because they were married, they had this daughter, and all of a sudden he leaves to be with a man. And I couldn't tell if the wife didn't want him in the daughter's life. And that's why he stayed away, because he kept trying to say, like, I sent you letters, I send you money. I would ask about you. Your mom didn't want me around. I couldn't tell how true that was. Portia Pendleton: Right. Dr. Katrina Furey: Or if he's sort of saying that. I don't know. What were your thoughts about that? Portia Pendleton: I wonder if initially she was so angry, rightfully so, and maybe just based on the time where they live, and embarrassed and anger and then embarrassment, kind of, because I guess he tried to get custody, shared custody, whatever, and she fought him for that. Dr. Katrina Furey: She had full custody. Portia Pendleton: So I don't know if he then interpreted some of those things as I'm. Dr. Katrina Furey: Out, or if she did keep the daughter away. And I couldn't tell. I can't remember where they all lived. I couldn't tell how was being gay viewed in their town and their culture and their religion. It sounded like Charlie was part of this what was it called? New Life Religion, or at least his partner was. So was that like, the religion everyone is sort of a part of in their area? And are they against homosexuality? That was unclear. But for whatever reason, he wasn't in his daughter's life, effectively. And then he makes contact again at the end of his life, and and. Portia Pendleton: It seems like it is behind, like, the mom's back and and I do remember actually, there was some, like, alluding to that. It was I don't want to say, like, illegal is not the right word. Dr. Katrina Furey: But, like, not part of the custody. Portia Pendleton: Agreement or should not be reaching out. She could call the police on him for doing that. Dr. Katrina Furey: That was the sense I got, too. So that was where I was like something went down. It seemed like it was more severe than just like, he left. It seemed like there was a really firm line drawn. Unclear exactly why, but it was drawn. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And then so we learned a little bit that he had left this family to be with a student. And so at first, right, immediately I. Dr. Katrina Furey: Was like, oh, is that why is. Portia Pendleton: He now a sexual predator? Portia Pendleton: Right. Portia Pendleton: I wondered how long it seems like he was teaching adult classes. So it was more of like an ethical issue that he was maybe let go for than, like a legal issue. You're in a position of power, but you're both adults. Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, but I had that thought too. I was like, Is that why the line was so firm with the custody or something like that. But I think he said that Dan was in grad school and it was like night classes, if I remember correctly. Portia Pendleton: And he wasn't currently in his classes at the time when they got together. I don't know. I mean, so he's telling all this to his daughter. Dr. Katrina Furey: So, by the way, who he hasn't spoken to since she was eight, and now she's a senior and, like, just, hey, let me lay all this on you. Portia Pendleton: Then kind of the second part of the film appears to just be around his interactions with his daughter, Ellie, and then occasionally with Thomas, who is like this traveling again, we believe, to be missionary, and Liz his nurse. That's it. And then it gets very emotionally intense. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Portia Pendleton: So why don't you want to start talking about his daughter a little bit? Dr. Katrina Furey: Fine. Portia Pendleton: I have a lot of angry feelings. Dr. Katrina Furey: Toward Charlie for the way he interacts with his daughter. So Ellie, I thought, was, like, really angry, really feisty. It seemed like she was at risk of failing out of school, and he wanted to help her. So I can't remember now exactly how he got her to come over that first time. Did he send her a message or something saying he had money for her, or do you remember? Portia Pendleton: I don't think he initially said that he had money for her because he then says, I'll pay you. And then that's where she kind of chooses appearingly, so on the surface to stay or to keep coming back. But it sounds like that was new information to her. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Dr. Katrina Furey: And it sounds like he is an English teacher. And throughout the film, there is a lot of significance to this paragraph about the whale from Moby ****. Right. And thomas the traveling. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Dr. Katrina Furey: I keep wanting to say traveling salesman, but that's not what he was traveling. Like, missionary comes in while he's masturbating and then having seems like a mini heart attack or something. And he asks him to read this paragraph to sort of ground him and bring him back and everything. And it's not till the very end of the movie that we learn that Ellie wrote that when she was much younger, and he's always kept it and read it. And I think it really resonates with him, again, being what some people would call a whale, just based on his large size. I think in a lot of ways, it resonated with him. And he sort of starts to say that he will help Ellie rewrite her essays so that she doesn't fail her English class. And then Ellie wants him to write them for her. And he kind of agrees, I think, in an effort to keep seeing her. And there's this tension or thought, I think, in his mind throughout the whole film about, is Ellie a good person or a bad person? And even her mom toward the end is like, she's terrible. I've had a really hard time raising her. You left me with her all on my own and now you're coming in and going behind my back and you told her about the money, she's going to spend it all and blah, blah, blah, blah. But she's very provocative. She really gets under everyone's skin, especially Thomas. And I'm curious what your thoughts were about the final thing they talk about with her. Like sort of telling Thomas's family if that was like a good thing or a bad thing or we don't really know. Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I think she did a really good job in the role. And I know her from Taylor Swift's ten minute version. She's in it all too well. Like the movie with Bill O'Brien and also Stranger Things. But I really like Z. No, I recognized her name, so I thought that some of the things that she was saying to Charlie, her dad, you could feel how hurtful they were. It sounds like she really knows where to hit you. Portia Pendleton: Yes. Dr. Katrina Furey: Like lying and disgusting and even if you weren't fat. Portia Pendleton: And that made me feel really sad. But kind of throughout that, I feel like Ellie was just so sad. Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Portia Pendleton: And abandoned. I think on paper she almost feels a little bit, like, odd and then maybe like moving into some conduct disorder with dead animal stuff. Yeah, I forgot. So on her Instagram page, she has, like, pictures of a dead dog and then she has this knife at one point and it almost feels like she's going to kill the bird that's outside his window. And so again, I think just like, on paper, it feels like a little bit. Dr. Katrina Furey: Where is this going to go? Does she have antisocial personality disorder? Is she growing into that? Or is this like trauma? Portia Pendleton: Right. Portia Pendleton: So I feel like it's trauma. Dr. Katrina Furey: It could also be both. Portia Pendleton: Right. I think at this point, I have a really big heart for teens. Dr. Katrina Furey: I've worked with many. Portia Pendleton: And my heart breaks for her because she keeps coming back. She's so mean and trying to push him away, but then she keeps coming back. Dr. Katrina Furey: She doesn't leave. Portia Pendleton: At one point, I think she's going to leave, but then she goes back and sits in the chair and does what he says. Dr. Katrina Furey: She writes him. Portia Pendleton: She's like, I'm going to make you a sandwich. No, it's not going to be big. But then she's like, doing these things for him. So, again, it's like she wants so badly, deep down to be like, parented. Dr. Katrina Furey: And loved and supported and all children want. Right. 100%. I thought it was like, such a chilling since you get goosebumps everywhere. Such a good portrayal of just a really difficult parent child relationship. And I think with her coming in and confronting the person, she feels like abandoned her. Who did you see why she feels that way? Right. Whatever the reasons are, he wasn't there, right? Period. And now coming back and of course, I feel like she's just all her anger and yelling and acting out is just, like, externalizing all of her pain rather than internalizing it, which it seems like Charlie internalizes his pain by binge eating. And we'll get into that in a minute. I think what made me so angry about this movie, and maybe it's supposed to, is that he comes into her life when he knows he's dying. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Portia Pendleton: Right. Portia Pendleton: For him to see her, that she is okay, it's like, you don't want to make her okay. You are just, like, checking back into her life to make sure you did one thing right. And it's like, for you. So selfish. Dr. Katrina Furey: I was going to read my final notes here on my notes app. At the very end I wrote ended movie feeling really, really angry. Didn't cry at all. Is he the most selfish person ever? Portia Pendleton: Help. Dr. Katrina Furey: Seeking help, rejecting reconnecting with his daughter to die in front of her. I was so angry. I remember, like, furiously typing this in my notes app because I was just like, God, that is you abandoned her all over again. And she sees him die. Like, he has the final heart attack in front of her while she's reading the Whale to him. Portia Pendleton: And let's just talk about so mad. I don't know if there's a name for it. We could probably call it something. But he is openly rejecting help at the cost of then traumatizing people around him, literally. To watch someone die, even if it's, you know, like a an uncomplicated death. You know, you're you're in the hospital. You're saying goodbyes to your grandparent who's 100 years old. Dr. Katrina Furey: They're on hospital. Portia Pendleton: It's still so traumatic and really hard to watch. So watching your father who 100 years old and who's refusing, don't call them. Don't call them. Even in that moment, don't call them. Just read me this letter instead. It's like, I just feel so abusive. Dr. Katrina Furey: It does, right? That's why I was so mad that I was like, I don't like Charlie. Portia Pendleton: Even within the traumatic end and his apparent rejection of her and abandonment of. Dr. Katrina Furey: Her, it's like he should have asked her to leave. Portia Pendleton: Don't let her watch you literally die. Literally die and force her to read this. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Right? Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. I was so angry. I don't know. This movie stirred up so much anger in me. I know. Portia after you watched it, you texted me like, oh, my God, I'm crying. I'm so glad I watched this during the day so I can decompress and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I did not shed one tear. I am so full of rage over here. Portia Pendleton: I was like, sad for everyone. Obviously, I'm angry at what he did, but it felt a little bit like an assisted suicide. He knew he was going to die any day, and I think he was kind of just waiting for his heart to give out. Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. But also, I think if we replaced obesity and binge eating with drugs yes. Portia Pendleton: That'S exactly the example I was thinking. Dr. Katrina Furey: I kept feeling for Liz. And then I'm like, and you're enabling him. You're bringing these huge subs by listening to him when he says, don't call for help and putting yourself in that role. You're part of the problem. But I understand why you keep coming. It's so complicated. So I was really just fascinated by whoever's choice it was to use obesity or binge eating as the diagnosis, if you will. And I was curious, Porsche, about your thoughts as someone who does a lot of work with patients with disordered eating, about the depiction of his eating habits and things like that. Portia Pendleton: I guess I would start off with, like, everyone, to a degree, has a different presentation with eating disorders, period. Like what it's used for, whether it's coping or almost like a little bit of self harm. This felt a little bit like self harm versus avoidance. Yeah. And then at times, I think in the bridge it was coping. So I thought we saw kind of two parts with use of kind of food being what we're supposed to be kind of watching and thinking about. So one was him eating like a large you see, like a pair of fried chicken, right. And Liz eating a lot of it. And that feels like, to me, almost a little bit more like self harm. Like, you're kind of intentional at this point. You're kind of dying. It's almost like I was getting the feeling like he was hoping that by doing this, he might speed it up or speed it up, die. And then in the other part of the binge so it seems like it was triggered by which this, to me, feels very common. Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought this was like an amazing depiction. Portia Pendleton: So throughout the movie, we see this almost like, relationship build between him and the delivery driver. So the delivery driver seems like, at times concerned. Portia Pendleton: Right. Portia Pendleton: There's this person in this house. I never see them. I would imagine the person is maybe thinking the person inside is depressed, maybe a hoarder, maybe elderly, like unable to get up, something like that, when you. Dr. Katrina Furey: Were like, but is this COVID? Portia Pendleton: I was like, but if this is. Dr. Katrina Furey: COVID, then we wouldn't think it was weird not to open your door for the delivery man. Right. Interesting. Portia Pendleton: And it was just little fact this was pre COVID. And it seems like it was around the time of the 2016 election. We see some of the news clippings between Hillary and Donald Trump. Dr. Katrina Furey: You're right. Portia Pendleton: I saw an article about like, they chose that intentionally. It was supposed to be like, in 2009, they wanted the movie placed in, but then they moved it up that it impacted it too much. That wasn't like something I was paying attention to. But anyway. So over time, the delivery driver is kind of, like, talking to him more. They get his name. And so it seems like at one point, Charlie feels comfortable enough to go to the door, open it and see him. Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't think it was that he felt comfortable enough. I thought he would be like, oh, the money's out there. Take it. He leaves it, and then he waits a certain number of minutes and then goes to get it. I thought the delivery driver stayed back. Portia Pendleton: Oh, you do? Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Who was that's? Portia Pendleton: Interesting. Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know if there's a right or wrong. It's just how we interpret the film. Right. Portia Pendleton: So he goes to the door and the delivery driver sees him and appears to be really disgusted and does not engage. Charlie sees that. He sees him and appears to be disgusted and not engaged. And he kind of, like, runs away. And so Charlie goes back inside and starts to binge. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Portia Pendleton: And this, I feel like, is a pretty typical binge episode. Like, there's a trigger of something that's emotional associated typically with negative emotion, shame or guilt. And then you proceed to start coping, quote, unquote, by eating a really large amount of food, right? And, yes, there are all different kinds of binges, sometimes people, large or small. Dr. Katrina Furey: But this really is like a clinically defined binge episode. And I think, for me, I found myself feeling really uncomfortable and sick, almost, like physically sick, watching him eat. And I'm like, I'm sure they did this on purpose, but just like, the way he was eating so fast he could barely breathe, he starts to get sweaty and red, and he's, like, drooling. And there's that really intense scene where he's choking the meatball and just all of it, I felt like. And I'm just getting chills. Again, like, talking about it, I think just speaks to the intense emotions driving that behavior that I just thought, again, was really accurately depicted and really stirs up those feelings in the viewer. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Portia Pendleton: So he is eating really rapidly. He's eating multiple kind of pizza, an odd mix of food, right? So going into the fridge, putting on different condiments, like the things that don't. Dr. Katrina Furey: Belong together, like jelly mayonnaise. And that is binge eating, right? You're not eating, like, third helping a cake, right? You're eating, like, a whole loaf of bread or just sort of kind of odd things. Portia Pendleton: So it's rapid, and we see it kind of end with he unintentionally throws up. And again, that is a difference between a self induced purge where trying to kind of get rid of it. That would be more along the lines of bulimia. But you can end a binge with something like throwing up. And that's not considered bulimia because it's not intentional. And it's kind of all over him. Again, it does bring up feelings of disgust. And I think that's kind of intentional. Intentional for the movie. They really want you to see that he is just, like, suffering. The thing that I took away, and I think he'll. Dr. Katrina Furey: Empathy as you talk. Portia Pendleton: Is that I just felt like his death almost to me, felt like a suicide. And that is where I think a lot of my empathy came from. I think what he did to Ellie is horrible, and I think that's why I really cried. I think I cried the last ten minutes. I could feel it, like, building. Dr. Katrina Furey: I was, like, dissociating from my body from rage. Like, I was just, like, watching it. I was so angry that I was like, I can't get too close to this. Honestly, it was wild. Portia Pendleton: Like, the pain you could feel, I had to get. So I think that's why it was very impactful. Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think, too, the whole story with Dan, his partner, is so tragic. So it sounds like at some point I knew this was coming. And this is where sometimes I feel like a genius when I'm like, I can anticipate the storyline where I was like, oh, my God, Dan is Liz's brother. Portia Pendleton: I didn't get that at all. Dr. Katrina Furey: And then he was but so anyway, because I was like, how does he know Liz? He hasn't gone to a healthcare setting. It's not like she was his nurse and has this inappropriate bond to him or continued trying to help him out of the hospital or something like that. It's not like she was a student of his. How does he know her? It doesn't seem like she's his neighbor. But maybe. But so it turns out that Liz was Dan's sister and she was adopted into the family. And we sort of start to learn about this when the Thomas, the traveling missionary person, says, he's from this church. And she was like, I hate that church. And we learned that the beliefs of that church, it sounds like when Dan and Charlie fell in love, dan was so wracked with guilt, was my understanding, because that wasn't okay in the eyes of the church, that he ended up committing suicide. And so then you're like, that's why they're so bonded, because that was Liz's brother and that was his partner. And you do see some photos of him around his apartment. And Charlie wasn't thin, thin as you would think. Like, he was always maybe living in a larger body, but not morbidly obese. And so to me, I then also started looking at his relationship with food as his grief, like a depiction of grief and his guilt and shame and almost like, taking on literally the weight of Dan's death and in that way kind of like paralleling Dan's suicide, like you were saying, right? It was just so intense. So intense. Portia Pendleton: I know. And I think I don't want to say it's just classic, but it's like, such a common presentation with binge eating disorder. There's so deeply rooted emotions, typically, of guilt and shame grief, rejection, out of control. Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I don't know. That's just kind of my guiding it can spiral. Portia Pendleton: Right. Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, he didn't put on that weight overnight. It took years and years and years and years. And you imagine as that's happening, his world was probably getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. Like, he was staying more and more in the house. And that's just sort of like you feel depressed watching the movie. It's dark. His apartment is cluttered. He, like, showers to see his daughter. But otherwise you imagine he's not really keeping up with his hygiene and all the things. And because it's hard to physically challenging. Portia Pendleton: It's a production to get up and even use the bathroom. Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. And it was so sad to me when Ellie was like, get up and walk over here. Portia Pendleton: I got teary watching that. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Dr. Katrina Furey: That made me and then he felt I mean, it just made me so uncomfortable. Like, that was another feeling I had throughout most of the movie, was just like, discomfort in so many different ways. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And he repeatedly throughout the movie says, I'm sorry. Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? Portia Pendleton: Like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, like, over and over again and gets, like, so mad about him because, like, you're not sorry. Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, that's the thing, right? Portia Pendleton: You can be both. But it's like he needs some DBT, right? Because you're saying you're sorry, but you're not doing anything to make it better for others, even not even just for yourself. Dr. Katrina Furey: But I didn't get the sense again, I was so angry with him by the end, but I also look at him as being so traumatized. And I didn't get the sense it was malicious. Portia Pendleton: No. Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I just got the sense he was so hopeless and depressed. But then I would be so frustrated with him to not take people up on the offer to help or get the insurance or have sought help earlier on or anything. But I'm just like, maybe he just felt like he didn't deserve that. Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I think that's absolutely part of it. And I think I just frame the entire thing as a suicide. And I think all of these feelings that we're talking about right now, you feel when someone takes their life suicide. Portia Pendleton: Right? Portia Pendleton: You're like, how could you do that? How could you leave your family, your kids? And there's really natural reactions that come up, like, you're selfish. Dr. Katrina Furey: How could you choose that? Portia Pendleton: Why wouldn't you reach out? Why wouldn't you go to the hospital? Why would you embark on a really planned and follow through event that leaves everyone just wrecked? Portia Pendleton: Right. Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't think Ellie is going to be better. Portia Pendleton: Right. Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't think this is going to help her. And I think I was also so angry because another sort of storyline throughout the movie was between Ellie and Thomas. We get the sense at first that Thomas is this, like, goody two shoes, new life missionary who doesn't swear, doesn't drink, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that Ellie's, like, being provocative and trying to poke him and trying to get him to smoke pot, or she's going to call the police and say he raped her. She has all of these really provocative things and keeps taking his picture, which I thought was so weird. Portia Pendleton: And she takes her dad's picture and posts it and has a really in common. Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Just a lot of boundary violations on her part. At first I was like, she's giving me a lot of cluster b vibes, like you were saying. And then it turns out that this guy was part of the church, but then stole their money, so he ran away. And now he's like, ran out of the money so he can't get back. And he's kind of lost. He's full of guilt and shame and worried that his parents will reject him because of what he did. And so somehow she sends the photos or something to his parents and they welcome him back. They surprise him and actually say, we don't care about the money, we just want you back. And he shows up near the end of Charlie's life to tell him about this and that Ellie was responsible for it. And Charlie internalizes it or interprets it as like, see, Ellie is good. But I was like, I don't think that that was good. Right. I don't think she was doing that in hopes that would be the outcome. I think she was, like, trying to hurt it. Right? Portia Pendleton: Yeah, totally. No, that's what I got from that. And I thought that Ellie is just such a good example of how for some people, events that happen in childhood can lead to, you know, and a later in life presentation. Portia Pendleton: Right. Portia Pendleton: Like, and I I think at this point and I'm I'm very hopeful with. Dr. Katrina Furey: Kids and teens that like a chef. If you listen to our episode about. Portia Pendleton: Choke Open, that's my what is it called? So I think in a perfect world, if she could have worked, if her father had stayed alive and healed his mental health and health, and she was able to get really good therapy and. Dr. Katrina Furey: Family therapy, like go to residential. Portia Pendleton: Exactly. Portia Pendleton: I think that there is a path for her, but I feel like her watching him die is not going to having no closure. And now it sounds like no guidance from mom. It seems like mom is now checked out because she said to Charlie, I raised her and you gave her the money. That's the best that we could do. Dr. Katrina Furey: It seems like mom really also gave up on her. She was like, duly abandoned. Portia Pendleton: I just don't see a great outlook for her. Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't either. And I don't think that was an act of good for Thomas. I think she's always trying to hurt people. Portia Pendleton: Right. And I think what's scary and concerning is it gets worse when you're an adult. Right. There's more consequences. You often as an adult are not referred to justice system like a residential instead of jail. You're 18 and if you do something I mean, she's threatening. She's literally threatening Thomas. Like you can't tell someone that you have to smoke pot or I'm going to tell people that you raped me. Provocative is a great word. Like aggressive. Dr. Katrina Furey: Provocative. It is threatening. Right, exactly. So I think you're right on the nose about her totally being this odd presentation. Odd. By that we mean oppositional defiant disorder, which is something that's diagnosed, I think, in teenagers. Right? Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Portia Pendleton: It's kind of like the prerequisite to then conduct disorder, which is like a little bit worse. It's like children specifically and teens who are very hurtful of others intentionally and typically there's a little extra layer there like you're setting fires or you have killed like a small animal. So I mean, it's very concerning. Dr. Katrina Furey: Know the difference. This is the important thing we talked about again back in you if you haven't listened yet, please go back and listen. But this is the flavor of the type of personality that unfortunately will become antisocial personality disorder with a lot of criminality. Like, you know the difference between right and wrong and you want to do right. You want to hurt other people. And a lot of times kids who meet this criteria do have a trauma history and you're like, you were so hurt, now you want to hurt others. It was interesting that it was a daughter. I feel like oftentimes we see this in boys, right? Like boys are more often diagnosed with that girls are more often diagnosed with like borderline personality disorder. So it's interesting to see a depiction in a girl. Portia Pendleton: Yeah, that's a good point. Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh God, I need a shower. Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I mean, the movie is just like I think it just made me sad because it just made me feel really like everyone was suffering so deeply and no one even Liz. Portia Pendleton: Right. Portia Pendleton: So she finds out at the end because Mary raised by his ex wife. Dr. Katrina Furey: I think, so something like that. Portia Pendleton: Because she kind of does bring up the fact that he has, I think, like around $120,000, which again he's planning to leave to Ellie and Liz is. Dr. Katrina Furey: Just like, why you were able to get insurance this whole time. Portia Pendleton: And she talks about her car. Portia Pendleton: Right. Portia Pendleton: At some point she was walking in the snow and rain to him to bring him things. And you could see so hurt that he a was not helping himself, but also like her. Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think that the Charlie Liz relationship is a really good depiction of a codependent relationship right. Because they're each enabling each other and getting their own kind of psychological need met. Portia Pendleton: I don't know. Dr. Katrina Furey: What do you think? Portia Pendleton: And have a shared I think yeah, they have all shared shared trauma that they're both like, using each other to cope with. And again, it's not I feel like that sounds bad, but it's just like we also just do that. We find ways to cope, and they're using and coping with each other in an unhealthy way. What did you think about the moment when Charlie was sitting he was sitting down and Mary kind of came over and was putting her head on his chest, and they were just kind of like, having that moment? Dr. Katrina Furey: I honestly don't remember it because I think I was so angry by the end, I blocked out a lot of I guess I thought it was like. Portia Pendleton: She was kind of saying goodbye, probably. Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I could see. I mean, I think they all knew who I don't know if Ellie understood he was dying. Portia Pendleton: Oh, we didn't talk about her giving him the ambien. Again. Dr. Katrina Furey: These are the things that cross over from being a rebellious teen and not listening to mom and Dad's rules and breaking curfew to egregious behavior. Right. Portia Pendleton: Like, literally drugging someone. Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, you could have killed him. Yeah. And then it also gave a sense that mom is maybe taking a lot of pills or something at home and I think drinks a lot. She said so. Also not really checked in. Oh, God. It was just so sad. I think I just really get sad when kids are abandoned by their parents. I think that's hard for me to watch. All right, well, any other final thoughts about this movie? Portia Pendleton: So when we were talking about Charlie's size and it definitely does take time to get into this position, and I wanted to point out in always, right? Mentally, physically, it's like, this isn't something that a large size of chicken wings does. Portia Pendleton: Right. Portia Pendleton: It's repetitive behaviors over and over and over again, kind of in Always with also a lot of health care avoidance. Portia Pendleton: Yes. Portia Pendleton: And I think there's a double edged sword to that. So I think a lot of people in larger bodies feel a lot of shame and can experience, like, fat phobia medical professionals. So there's a lot of avoidance, which is really too bad, because if you were with a provider who was really offering support and guidance in a non judgmental and shameful way, but maybe even just like the same information, you would feel more comfortable going if you get to your healthcare setting. And it was a challenge to write, walk into the building, get up, take up the elevator, walk into the door, and then you find that there's no chair that you can sit in because it's not big enough for you. It's like all of these little, small kind of micro aggression, oppression really kind of sets the effect and makes people not go. So I think I just wanted to talk about having fatty food does not necessarily lead to this. It's a really significant mental health part and kind of a multifaceted place that a person is in to get here. Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And I think, again, I kept wondering about why did they pick morbid obesity over drug use, cutting, drinking, these other things we think about as self harming types of behaviors that you think you could develop in response to a tragic loss like this. We see that depicted a lot more in the media than something like this. So I think maybe that is why it all struck a nerve for everyone. And I thought overall, they did a remarkable job portraying binge eating the medical consequences that would come from living in a morbidly obese body and all the big feelings that he was probably feeling is what gets stirred up in us for watching, which was really fascinating, something we talk about a lot. And I think it's important, and I hope we keep reiterating with our show, is bodies come in all different shapes and sizes, and unfortunately, the medical field can be inherently fat shaming if you adhere too much to the BMI standards, which, as it turns out, aren't really predictive of overall health and longevity. I think there is some evidence that people with on the lower end of, like, the overweight BMI are sometimes healthier. They might not have high cholesterol or high blood pressure and things like that. A lot of people with a lot of muscle mass weigh more. So BMI is really not that accurate, but it's something a lot of people use. Portia Pendleton: I think it's some of the advice that I give is really just kind of following what, to a degree, like. Dr. Katrina Furey: What your lab work says. Portia Pendleton: And if you are eating, in general, a balanced diet, and you're moving your body in a way that feels good to you, and you're living kind of a lifestyle that feels good, and your lab work is good and you're not having health issues, it's like you're probably okay. Right. And I think that's so true. People who appear and are in many. Dr. Katrina Furey: Other ways very physically healthy can have. Portia Pendleton: Really high cholesterol because it's genetic and there's parts to all of this. Portia Pendleton: Exactly. Portia Pendleton: I find that very interesting. Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, that's the other thing is, even if you do all those things, if you have a family history, you still might develop it. You could be thin and still get diabetes because you're genetically predisposed. It's not only like a quote unquote, fat person disease. Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Dr. Katrina Furey: So I don't know. I think we feel really strongly about that. Portia Pendleton: But this movie was intense. Dr. Katrina Furey: How would you rate it? Portia Pendleton: One to five? Like five stars? Four stars? Four, I think. Dr. Katrina Furey: For sure. Five stars. I mean, I don't know that I want to watch it again because it was intense. Portia Pendleton: I don't know if I could. Not for any near future. Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like I've been anticipating recording this all week. I feel legit, like a weight is off my back. Which, again, is just really interesting. Portia Pendleton: Yes. Dr. Katrina Furey: Remarkable. I'm glad he won the oscar really well deserved, and I hope he keeps acting. Portia Pendleton: I hope to see more. Dr. Katrina Furey: And if he wants to come on the podcast, you're invited. Yeah, we'd love that. Portia Pendleton: Well, thanks so much for listening to this episode. We hope you enjoyed it. If you would like, we would love for you to follow us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts. And if you could rate, review and subscribe and share with five people. Yeah, our channels on Spotify it seems like it's pretty active, as well as Apple Music, the most out of kind. Dr. Katrina Furey: Of all the other places. Portia Pendleton: But we are everywhere. Portia Pendleton: Yes, we are everywhere. Dr. Katrina Furey: If you wanted to go subscribe literally everywhere, feel free. All right, we'll see you next time. Portia Pendleton: Bye. Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. Dr. Katrina Furey: All rights reserved. Dr. Katrina Furey: Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

INTRODUCTION: Adrienne Zetty Barrows in fully licensed funeral director, embalmer, crematory retort operator, and life, health and accident insurance producer. She has an academic background in Religion, Philosophy, and Psychology, and strong community development and educational outreach skills. Adrienne is committed to the values and standards of independent and family-owned funeral homes. INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Insight Into The Mortician Profession·      Themed Funerals!!! #MardiGras·      Let's Talk Embalming ·      Paranormal Activity In Funeral Homes·      Can't Escape Karen – She Shows Up At The Funeral Home Too·      COVID-19 Burnout·      Accept That You Can Die At ANY Age – You Are Not Guaranteed To Get Old ·      Dangers In Donating Your Body To Science·      The Importance Of Life Insurance CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com   DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Adrienne Zetty Barrows[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hello everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host of. And today I have with me a lovely woman by the name of Adrian Zeti Bar. Adrian is a fully licensed funeral director and embalmer, a crematory retort operator, and life health and accident insurance producer. So in the day's show,we're gonna be talking a lot about death, and we're gonna give you an [00:01:00] inside look into the life and profession of a mortician. We're gonna talk about covid 19 implications, paranormal activity in funeral homes, the importance of life insurance people please it. Life insurance, like seriously. Uh, the dangers in donating your body to science, cuz it's not always what it seems.And the fact that you need to accept that you can die at any age and that you're not guaranteed to get old. Please listen seriously and please share this with someone you love. Hello all you delicious souls out there and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host, Devon, and I'm here with my homegirl Adrian Zeti, who is a mortician.Yes. I'm talking with a woman who deals with the dead today, darling. And I cannot wait to get into it. How the fuck is you doing? Adrienne: I am so excited. I just finished my funeral directors and morticians have [00:02:00] difficult schedules most of the time, so I'm just finishing up my 10 day. So I am doing absolutely nothing today except for talking with you, which I'm very excited about.Ooh, De'Vannon: I'm excited to have made it on your schedule. So I want to read over a few statistics before we get into like the questions. And so, you know, it is very rare you come across a mortician unless somebody didn't died, you know, you, you know, as a friend or in passing. And so this is a very, very interesting career field that a lot of people just, it's just not talked about.So, absolutely. You know, it's not, it's not like you're gonna be at dinner and be like, oh, so, you know, I was dealing with this body the other day, or whatever the case may mean. So, So in my research, and this, this website that I pulled this information from is called Zia, Z i P P I a.com. It says there are over 22,000 funeral [00:03:00] directors currently in the United States.64.7% of them are men, and about 35% of them are women. I was pleased to, to research that women are paid the same as men. Kinda. Adrienne: No, it's true. It's true. But so you have to look at, typically if you have a male dominated field, when women start coming into that field, rather than women's base pay rising to meet their men's, more often than not it the average salary goes down, sadly enough.So but yeah. So with assertiveness and shrewd salary negotiations typically yet is, it, is. It is pretty equal. And I would like to point out, yes, it is majority male field at the moment, but all, almost any funeral school, any funeral program is gonna have a majority of women in it at this point nowadays.So all of the new funeral directors, so people coming into the field right now are by and large [00:04:00] majority women. For instance, in my graduating class, I think one, I think there was one guy, maybe two guys made it. I'm not sure there's one. I don't think he passed final. But but the, you know, 90% of the class was female.De'Vannon: Do you think that that has to do with a breakdown of the patriarchy? I think, Adrienne: I think it has to do with. Hmm, that's a good question. I think it has to do with women. The value that women add to funeral services is it's kind of unique. There's a certain kind of warmth, I think, and a tenderness that we bring to it.Not to say that we're not all tough broads, you know what I mean? Like we can still hold our own with, of fellas in terms of the physical demands and the emotional demands of it. But I think there's a certain there's a certain qua I think that women add to funeral service, and I think that's appreciated by families.And [00:05:00] so I think women, well, you know, when I first started I think a lot of families kind of would see a female funeral director and think it was like the B team coming out. So I know that's your eyebrow raises exactly how I would feel the couple of times that I've encountered that. But as soon as they, they experience the kind of service that we're, you know, that, that women offer, I think that that.Breaks down any kind of misgivings that people have because it is a traditionally male career. So, Hmm. De'Vannon: Well, well, yeah, I would say then that then it, it's probably along that patriarchal like breakdown. Cause what, what you're saying is they didn't think that you could do it just cuz you're a girl and Correct.But the proof's in the pudding and, you know, the world is changing now and it's not all about old white men running every fucking thing anymore. Exactly. Adrienne: Exactly. And if you notice, it's old white men, bless their hearts [00:06:00] that have kind of painted the industry in a corner to a certain extent. You know, it's, it's the old, I don't know if you've seen the movie The Big Lebowski, but there's a scene where one of the characters dies and they go to the Mortician Hall says, this is our most modestly, you know what I mean?There's a certain kind of attitude or approach to funeral directing and how, you know, how we monetize the services that we offer people, you know what I mean? So, a lot of the misconceptions that people have, not just about female funeral directors, but a lot of people have a very negative impression of the industry in general.So I won't say we're as bad as car salesmen used car salesman use car salesman. But a lot of people, you know, they come, you know, they're sitting across the desk from the funeral director for the first time. If they've not had that kind of experience, they just kind of know what they know from TV or from, you know, what happened with Aunt Gladys's service or you know, they hear something and so they come and they're sitting down across from me and they have, a lot of people are very guarded because they [00:07:00] have this idea that my job is to separate them from their money, you know, to try to get them to prove how much they love their mom by spending more on a casket, that kind of thing.So those fears from the general public are from generations of. You know, same old, same old kind of treatment. And so I think women coming into the industry, hopefully is kind of helping the industry itself to express value to consumers, you know, so that we, we can really show them that it's not just, you know, sell you our, you know, whatever kind of, whatever they're trying to sell you.It's not about that. It's about family care, personal care to their families. So hopefully it's redefining the value that we offer. Mm-hmm. De'Vannon: Nothing like some good value, honey. Now, one this, this website also is saying that funeral directors are most in demand in Tucson, Arizona. [00:08:00] And now if that, I don't doubt them, but I wonder why.And I used to live in Tucson when I was stationed in the Air Force. I wonder, have you heard of any kind of like, demand in a certain city or state more than another? Or, or do you have any idea why? In Tucson that you'd, video1042642136: I Adrienne: think it probably correlates to a higher retirement age population. So if Tucson, Arizona is a popular area for folks to retire to when they're tired of the cold, you know, Northeast Winters that they would go to Miami or Tucson, you know what I mean?That you'd have a higher demand for funeral services in general. That De'Vannon: makes sense. That's my best guess. That, that makes perfect sense. You're so smart. I love that. We called it, we called them snow bunnies when I was Station. Yes. Adrienne: There. I've been called a snow bunny before. De'Vannon: Oh, we're not talking about role playing honey.Or, or, or, or getting our Wolf of Wall Street on too. [00:09:00] If you haven't seen the movie, then you'll know what I mean with, with the snow button references there. Yeah, so there's like, whenever starts to turn cold in Arizona, there's this large migration of RVs and shit that just swarm down into Tucson or wherever, whenever starts get cold in general.Cause some people gets to fuck away from the, the ice and they come down somewhere like that. That's not, that's, that's not gonna be iced out. And I, I'm sitting here thinking like, I wonder if it's like a breaking bad reference. It's like people getting shot up or whatever. But what she said made more sense.Adrienne: Well, no, but that, that could be a part of it too. I mean, it could be sad to say, you know, with substance use issues sometime play, play into it. So if you have, you know, endemic issues in, in a, you know, larger metropolitan area, that might sadly, you know, bring up the death rate. So you mentioned De'Vannon: Like school, what kind of training?Is [00:10:00] required. And then tell then tell us, well, before we get into the training, tell us exactly what you do and tell, explain to us the difference between a funeral director, mortician and an undertaker of what your Okay. Title. Adrienne: So some of some of those titles are a distinction without a difference kind of things.So, and some of 'em are just kind of more old fashioned. So like the old guard would more often than not identify themselves as a mortician or an undertaker. Nowadays more people say funeral director, it's a little imprecise because and it does vary state by state. But, so that could mean that they are just front of the house, so to speak, that their only job is to sit and meet with families, to plan services, to make funeral arrangements and or to take out those services, you know, go out to church and stuff.But in that, it could also, so most of the time I would introduce myself as a funeral director. Now I am also an embalmer, so I do front of the house and back of the house. Some states [00:11:00] it's some states it's one license to do both duties. In other states, you can get a funeral directing only license or an embalmers only license.That's a little less frequent. And then, and also, you know, there are some states that are either completely unregulated, like Colorado or states like Florida that have introduced something that's kind of like, I, I don't wanna, no offense anybody, but like funeral director light. Like it's a, it's a, it's a, it's an easier to obtain license that allows them to do most of the jobs of the, the front of the house of funeral directors under the guidance of a full fledged, fully licensed funeral director.So, but it's, it's, those are the three basic duties, the making arrangements, carrying out services, and then, you know, embalming back of the house. Whatever kind of prep work and care for the actual, the, the physical care of the decedent [00:12:00] that we, we De'Vannon: take care of. So when you go to school for one, do you go to school for all of them and they just kind of train you on everything or, Adrienne: and then, yeah.Most of the time, I'd say like the most, the, the, the typical route is going to be bef there's before Covid and after Covid. So I would say after Covid I mean, online schooling was existed before Covid certainly, but it seems like that seems to be primarily, you know, how most people since Covid go to funeral school?So I, I went well before Covid and so I physically went to school. So I, I went to I physically showed up in class every day, and it's a two year program. So most of those programs are something like, they'll have like a base requirement. Like you, you'll have to have had. Let's say 60 hours of something, just something just going to college, you know, math, whatever.And then after you have a requisite number of hours you can apply to be in the program. And then typically it's a two year program. It's an associate's degree in most places. There are some [00:13:00]places and a couple of states that actually require bachelor's degree. But majority of time it's it's a two year associate's degree program.Some of the programs are a little more regimented. Some of them are more flexible. And by that I mean like there are some programs where you take class 1, 2, 3, 4, and then the next semester you take 5, 6, 7, 8, versus some other programs that are a little more self-selecting for the students, but that tend to take longer.So it might take four years to graduate, for instance. So but it's pretty, I, I always joked I should have tried out for Jeopardy after I finished funeral school because you study a little bit of everything. So, I mean, there's, there's, you know, history, religion, law, accounting, computers. English, chemistry, pathology all, all kinds of stuff.It really runs the gamut. So it's pretty challenging and difficult. And then once you, you know, typically you pass, you [00:14:00] graduate from your program and then you have permission to sit for the national exam, the national board exam, there's two parts. Funeral directing and embalming, or well, and arts and sciences.And then you are licensed by the state and then you do whatever you're doing. Now there's also mixed in there an apprenticeship. So you have your schooling and then you have your actual work experience. And the two are surprisingly different. So what you're learning in school is to pass the national board exam, and it's very frequently it's a different, at the very least, it's a different kind of information than when you're actually practicing funeral directing and involvement.Do you see what I mean? Like what, what your day-to-day skillset looks a little bit different in the reality of it versus the school part of it. I'm sure that that's, you know, that that happens in other professions too, I'm sure. De'Vannon: Right? The, but why did you choose this career path? Did you, did you feel like it was a calling?Do you feel like it [00:15:00] was like a spiritual thing? Like of all the things you could have been in all the nine realms? Why, why this, Adrienne: that is a great question and I I came into it relatively late, so I had you know, I've gotten my bachelor's 10 years before I decided to go to funeral school. And for a long time, I guess in my personal case, it was important to me that I find meeting in what I do, like, I, I wanted to make sure that I, you know, I come from a long line of some, some good people that you know, you know, Social workers and psych psychiatric nurses and a, their whole careers were spent caring for and dedicated to people.And so I kind of wanted to do something that felt like it had that kind of impact. But, you know, I got a degree in philosophy and religion, so I ran a college bookstore for 10 years like you do, you know? So I, I, I guess I had a couple of life experiences. I had a couple of friends that either died or had a, a close, you know, close family member die.And [00:16:00] through those interactions and those events, I think that kind of planted a seed. And when I decided against law school, it kind of occurred to me personally that I, you know, I would've been a good lawyer, wedding planner, the. Pastor, nurse Carpenter, like all of the different component skills that you kind of smoosh together to make a good funeral director.But once, once that occurred to me, and I was into my thirties, I was well into my thirties, it was like, duh. You know, and then I like ran the thought past a couple of people who know me, who know me best, and they were like, oh yeah, that absolutely makes sense. And then from there on out, it was, that was it.And I, I've been doing it full, full course ever since. And it's, and you're right, to me, it is a, it is a vocation, it is a calling. It's not something that you just do like, instead of, you know, getting your insurance license. Do you know what I mean? You don't just capriciously happen upon it. I don't think, I, I think the best funeral directors would be hard pressed to find happiness in any [00:17:00] other line of work, if that makes De'Vannon: sense.It makes perfect damn sense. But have you ever, have you ever thought about getting out of this career field since you've, oh, you Adrienne: always kind of have to have, I don't wanna say an exit strategy. But it is a, it is a quickly changing field, and so I'm a very opinionated, strident kind of person. And so far I have been able to afford my integrity throughout my career.But, you know, you have to be able to you know, you gotta keep working and you have to, you know, if, if there ever comes a time when you're not gonna be able to find an environment that you're comfortable working in, then you have to have an exit strategy. And it's also incredibly physically demanding.It's almost every embalmer I know has a bad back and a lot of 'em have cancer. So it just kind of comes with the territory. It's, it's, you know, it, it's constant exposure, not constant, but I mean, it's, it's plentiful exposure to some pretty nasty chemicals. And while there are [00:18:00] certain safeguards that we take, there's a certain amount of risk, you know that we, that we take De'Vannon: on.Well, that brings me to my next question I was gonna ask you about like pathogens and physical safety and things like that. I was thinking in terms of like coming in contact with blood or whatever that is, you know, whatever's in the body, but where the fuck are people getting cancer from? And it's, I mean, you say it's so casually as though, oh well another person.Not like you don't care, but like, it happens so damn much. What, but how, how, how can, how can cancer be that prevalent in your career field and people aren't getting sued or something? Do you have to sign like waivers or some shit or what? Adrienne: No, but it's, I guess it's just something that's understood specifically when we go through funeral school and we take chemistry classes and we know about, you know, we know about the dangers of formaldehyde.So there are chemicals that we use in this country that other countries don't allow cause of that, you know, [00:19:00] kind of from the protecting the practitioner kind of point of view, we don't really have those kind of. Protections. You know, I think and, and I mean, I, and honestly, I don't know many people in the industry that are like fighting for those protections necessarily either.So it's just kind of an accepted risk that we take, I guess. De'Vannon: Ne it works for y'all. Let it work. It works for me too. Adrienne: You gotta die somehow, you know what I mean? So the fact that that we have a little bit more exposure, you know, it's, I think it's that sometimes we're called the, the last first responders, but I think a lot of first responders have that.There's just a certain amount of risk that you have, you know, er nurses and you know, cops, firemen, you know, it's, it's service. We're doing service. I'm certainly, I don't wanna compare us to, to the, the real first responders, as it were, but it, it's a similar kind of, there is risk that is inherent to the job, [00:20:00] so we do what we can, but it's always gonna be there.De'Vannon: Everyone has their role to play firefighters or whatever, but having to do with somebody's last rights is a, is a high honor as old as time. It is, it's sacred. Adrienne: It's it's sacred. And that's kind of the joke I make is that you know, when most people talk about the world's oldest profession, hey, let's talk about something else.But in truth you know, funeral, you know, funeral, the, the job of caring for the dead has been around since time. Im memorium. So, so yeah, it is, it is. It's, it's, it's sacred. It really is. So it's, sometimes it's a, it's a lot of day-to-day stuff too. You know, it's a lot of bureaucracy and logistics and that kind of stuff.But when you really get down to the core of it, when we're interacting with families, when we're there, we're the first people that, you know, we're the first call. It, it is, it's a high honor. [00:21:00]De'Vannon: For the schooling, do you have to do continuing education courses every year? Adrienne: Yes. Most states. So there, like I said, Colorado for instance, there's not a license that's required to practice in Colorado.So I think in that case, there's not and certainly the rules are different in some states it's, you know, 24 hours in a year, 12 hours, and yada, yada, yada. But yes, there is absolutely continuing education and hopefully, you know, practitioners are excited about that in the sense that just the developments in science and, and the, the way that the chemicals that we use are evolving and there's always something more to learn.video1042642136: So. De'Vannon: Mm-hmm. How many funerals do you do a day, or what's the most you've done in a day? That's hard to Adrienne: answer because, so a funeral versus. Making funeral arrangements. So there are, I would say nowadays in most places, cremations, specifically direct cremations. So that's a, that's a cremation with no associated rights or [00:22:00] services.So it's, it's for the most part, a matter of paperwork so that a body may be cremated and then you return the herb to the family and that's it. So I think for the highest volume firm I was at, I think I was handling like 12 to 14 cases a week. Now, of those only maybe two or three would actually be, and would involve a church or like going somewhere or doing something or viewing the body or doing any of the associated rights.So and it's, it's different rates in different communities. So in Louisiana where I first got my license, there's a lot of Catholic. And Catholics have a lot of rights and rituals that are associated with, with death and with burials. So we had a lot of services there. So, but I've also worked in more kind of secular communities.I worked around, you know, in, in New Orleans when Covid hit, so there were a lot of services where there were no services. It was just, [00:23:00] it was just here for the deceased and thatDe'Vannon: was it. Right. And so she mentioned Louisiana. She used to live down here. She's up in Maine now. I am eating up on my damn lobster.Adrienne: That's a big ass crawfish up here, huh?De'Vannon: I like your style. I'm picking up what you're putting down baby. So so how many, what's the most amount of bodies you've embalmed in a day? I'm just trying to get a feel for like, in a Adrienne: day. Mm. Three, maybe four, but I'm not I'm, I'm a very good embalmer, but I don't consider the speed with which I embalm a body as a, as an indicator of how good I am at embalming.So there are some embalmers that are like, I can embalming 45 minutes or something like that. So, but to me that the timing of it doesn't reflect the quality of the embalming. So for the most part, you know, it takes, I'd say an hour [00:24:00] and a half, two hours. They could be a lot longer, they could be a lot more complicated.That it every, literally, everybody is unique. And so certain things you wanna, a one pointer would be the, the, the thing that the embalmer most efficiently is gonna go for. And that's where we only have one point of entry into the arterial system. But sometimes, you know, shit happens and you, you have to raise other sites.And so every time you have to raise a different site, that adds on time. video1042642136: So De'Vannon: do you remember the first body you ever mbed? Adrienne: I remember the first autopsy body that I encountered. No, I do actually, no, I do remember the, well, not the first body that I embalmed. I remember the first time that I saw an embalming.Okay. And it was at one school that had, essentially, they had the contract that they would care for all of the indigent populations. So if a [00:25:00] homeless person passed away, they would kind of cycle through the funeral school and then go be cremated. And so the very first embalming I saw was a little off-put to me because it was kind of like, you know, the teacher said Go and then you'd have like five students just like go at it and it.It felt very un sacred, I guess. And so I was like I don't, I don't know if I can do this, you guys. So, but then I went back and then I, the next embalming I saw was kind of a, a demonstration. So it was someone who was coming to, to show a specific skill. So it was one embalmer working on the body, and he was much more respectful.And I, and that, that kind of helped me feel settled a little bit, you know? So but yeah, so I do, I do remember that, and it is quite an adjustment as is, like I mentioned, the autopsy. The first time I saw, I walked in and saw an autopsy body, I would said to my classmate, if I pass out, I'm [00:26:00] not even embarrassed because this is horrifying.It's, it's really existentially distressing, you know, to see So, but power through it. And that's that's, I think the thing that helps people kind of get over that bump is, like I mentioned, kind of the craftsmanship of it. That we put people back together and so they, they, they leave look at a hell of a lot better than they did when they came in.So that's, that's the goal. And so that's part of, I think how, how we could deal with what we deal De'Vannon: with. So with an autopsy, are you like peeling the skin back and digging in there versus with embalming, you're like using more like tools to put stuff in? Adrienne: Yeah, so for an on autopsy body, personally, I try to be as minimally intrusive as possible.So yeah, so we would try, if I can, if I can raise one area and that is sufficient to accomplish what I need to accomplish with arterial embalming. Great. With autopsies, you don't [00:27:00] have a choice. It's already, it's already been decided for you that it's, it's gonna be a different process. So but yes, it's, it's very, they're, they're opened and then you do what you're doing with the arterial system and you treat everything and then close 'em back up.But. Yeah, it's a lot. De'Vannon: Talk to me about the paranormal activity. Cause so a person, you know, when they die, when their spirit depart, like is severed from the body, but when they're in your hands, they have not officially been laid to rest yet. And so they're kind of like in a, a waiting period, like their soul is at this time.So, yeah. Have you ever seen a spirit? Has anyone spoken to you? Adrienne: Yeah. So not every funeral director would they not, they don't all [00:28:00] believe in paranormal activity, so I've seen some shit though. So yeah, no, I've seen a, I've seen a couple of my favorite one, I was standing in the prep room. I know I was ironing a flag or something, I don't know.And I look over and there was a corkboard on the wall. And two pieces of paper, not on one, not on one tack, on two separate tacks, two pieces of paper out of nowhere, flew vertically and then fell down. And so it wasn't like a loose tack and then gingerly, you know, lifted down to the floor. No, this, well, I flew across the room and all I could do is say hello.I acknowledge that something is here and I hope that you're doing okay, and I'm just gonna do what I'm doing, and that's great. So but I, yeah, no I, I've, most of the places that I've worked, most of the people acknowledge at least a [00:29:00] little bit of funny business, you know at the first place, the place where I I, I did my apprenticeship, had a name, I forgot what they named.It was like Bessie or something, but like, it was so frequent that, that certain things would happen to. Clocks in the room and this and that and that they named her. So, or him, I don't know. I didn't ask the gender, but and I have actually, I've heard things before, which is a little off-putting. So, but you know, a lot of these funeral homes, they're very, very old buildings.So, and if they've been funeral homes for that long, then yeah, it's, it's not really De'Vannon: surprising. When you say you heard things, is it like a, a rattling noise, an auditory voice, Adrienne: or, I've heard auditory voices. I've heard my name when I was verifiably the only person on the floor or in the building to the extent that I [00:30:00] got up from what I was doing and kind of walked around like, hello, who's there?You know what I mean? So that's happened a couple of times. So, but not every place, surprisingly. So the place that I'm currently working out of I haven't really, I haven't really encountered anything. And even though I probably work with more of the, more, more of the kind of spooky oriented people in the field at my current location, it's not, no one's ever mentioned anything at this particular place.So that's, it's not, it's not just the funeral homes. I think it has, there's, there's more to it than that, at least. What am I to say? I De'Vannon: would say some, I would say such, you know, funeral homes and places that are like a congregation of the dead would prove to be some sort of a nexus point, you know? Yeah, no, Adrienne: and it's, different cultures have different ideas of it too.So in I just did a Cambodian Buddhist [00:31:00] funeral and that is a part of it. So there's a big part of it is the, the monks. Come and they do this beautiful chanting, and the idea is that they're chanting instructions at the spirit of the deceased to kind of talk them through what their next steps are.Like hang a left at the, at the star, you know what I mean? Or whatever it is. So, but they're, they're actually trying to help guide spirits that may may not know how to proceed forward. So, but, and, and I al I also have heard of funeral homes as kind of being a transition point. So I've heard a couple of, of good ghost stories wherein they invited whatever entity was bothering them at their own home.And they went and they were just like, come on buddy. And they went to a funeral home and kind of like an elevator to the sky kind of a thing. Like it's a, it's a place of transition, but also though it's the place of the place where the death actually happens, [00:32:00] and then the place where the bodies ultimately go.So, you know, graveyards and, and that kind of thing. De'Vannon: And I would imagine the, the newly dead or practicing becoming dead and, you know, and getting used to those new abilities and everything like that. And you're their perfect little Guinea pig. I call out your name too. If I'm, if I, if you're like working on my body, need no one else to talk to you, Adrian's here.Well, Adrienne: and that's, it's, you know, and there are some people that kind of lean into that. And so I've known people that go so far as to try to find out the deceased person's musical tastes. And so rather than playing what I wanna hear when I have them in the prep room, or if I'm driving them to the cemetery, that you'd play a little Johnny Cash or whatever it is that they were into, to, you know, let 'em, let 'em feel a little at home at least for their, their last little time.De'Vannon: Okay, now play me some Beyonce or [00:33:00] Madonna. Girl. Go ahead. On and tw while you are working on me. So do you, do you ever have any dreams that are related to your job or anything Adrienne: like that? Not like I used to when I was a waitress. I've had waitressing dreams where I'm, you know, pour coffee in the middle of the night or anything like that.So, no, actually, I guess thankfully, no, not too much. I'm pretty good at kind of shaking it off. Yeah, having and uh, separating. De'Vannon: Separating it com. Compartmentalizing Adrienne: com compart, I'm so great at it, you know what I mean? I had a difficult childhood, so it's one of my life skills. De'Vannon: I've worked in the service industry and I, I, and I still do I I would agree.Waiting tables is way more horrific probably than you. It is the dead body. At least the bitch can't talk back like the motherfucker Karens and shit. Adrienne: Oh, you'd be surprised. We get some, Karens, we get some, and rightfully so, you know what I mean? Like, and I don't, not to poke fun at families, but there are [00:34:00] families that behave.They, you know, I'd say misbehave not because of grief, but because of an inflated sense of entitlement. So I, we get those two, but yeah, not, not as traumatizing, I don't think is in the restaurant world, to my recollection. De'Vannon: What the fuck could Karen come into her funeral home? But like, what, what could she demand that Is she, is she asking for free shit?She reduced to shit what the Adrienne: person Sometimes, sometimes it is. I want to come. So, you know, cause if you Google a funeral home, they're gonna say 24 hours. And what that means is that if a death occurs at three o'clock in the morning, we will dutifully respond to you and bring your loved one into our care regardless of the hour.That does not mean that you can follow, you know, the van back to the funeral home to make arrangements at three o'clock in the morning. So there are people that, that try to, you know, just show up whenever, or demand to make [00:35:00] arrangements outside of our normal operating hours. Or they'll, d i we, I had recently had a family that was gobsmack that a Catholic priest wouldn't have a, a funeral mass on a Sunday.They don't do that. Okay. They don't do that for archbishops. They don't, that's not that, that's just not a normal practice. And just, you know, the, oh, my, my word. How could you not? You know what I mean? So, and, or scheduling services before ever talking to the funeral home and then being surprised that, you know, Oh, I scheduled this mask to happen two days from now.What do you mean you can't, what do you mean you have three other services that day or, you know, so that, that kind of stuff. And so partially more often than not, it's people not knowing they haven't made arrangements before. So they don't know. They think, you know, maybe they just have a wrong idea, but sometimes it is just straight up entitlement, so.De'Vannon: Hmm. So do you see like a psychiatrist or do you, are you kind of meditating? Do you do yoga? How do you, how do you keep yourself mentally and emotionally in check? [00:36:00]Adrienne: I am very purposeful about my time away from work, so there is a tendency I'm tempted to say, especially with the ladies. I've seen it, I think a, a little more frequently with my female colleagues than with my male of being, I don't know, I don't wanna say overinvested, but like, Unable to check out on days off, like micro not micromanaging or being involved in things instead of just trusting and passing it off to your colleagues on your off days.Cuz that's, you know, you can try as we might, we try to minimize any kind of duties, you know what I mean? If, if a if a brand new family comes in and needs services on my day 10, I'm most likely not gonna be the director that sits with him to make arrangements because I am almost assuredly going to be out, you know, a as those arrangements need to be made.So some funeral directors have trouble setting those boundaries between being at work and being available. [00:37:00] You know, so I'm pretty good about that. Setting boundaries. So on my off times, I'm off for the most part. So that's a big part of it. I am, I have a very supportive partner. Who, so I have some mutual accountability in my household, which helps.So if I have had a particularly nasty day and I wasn't able to kind of shake it off on my way home, you know, on my commute or something like that, that I have I, I have, you know, my husband that can kind of since that and give me an opportunity to talk about something if I need to, if I'm struggling with some, you know, some, and it's, I think as a surprise to you, it has less to do with any kind of the grossness of my job, more so than it does about the emo emotional turmoil that, that we deal with.You know, it's hard. I, I'm very empathetic and so it's difficult to [00:38:00] see people suffer and then have to just, you know I dunno, it, it's hard to see people suffer and not have a way to help them. And so in, in one sense of it, I think it's easier for me because instead of just seeing suffering and just being like, oh, I wish I knew what I could do, I actually do know what to do in some circumstances.And so it's not just passively seeing suffering happen. I see the same suffering that everyone else does, but I can actually step up and I can help out and I can hopefully bring a little bit of peace to some people, and that is rewarding in and of itself. So I think that kind of feeds pour into my cup, as it were.That's a, a metaphor we hear a lot is you can't pour from an empty cup. So I, I try to focus on ways to pour back into my cup and so thank you notes. I, if I, if I'm really down or if I'm really exhausted, I have my thank you notes for [00:39:00] my families and that means the world to me and that is just a reminder of why, you know, why I'm doing what I do.And that helps too. So and then also mood altering substances. So, and Bravo personally helps me a lot. So, De'Vannon: well, this is the sex, drugs and Jesus podcast. So put on the drugs right now, drugs, man. And everything's a fucking drug. Fucking coffee. The fucking drug. Yeah. So I, I heard you and you said you can't pour from an empty cup.I've heard it said before in another way where it says you can't give away what you don't have. Yeah. And so whatever is, you can't, if you nothing in the cup, you can't pour a shit out, but you also can't create things that are not there. So, like you said, you're empathetic, but you have em empathy to give.So that's very, very, very highly high, high vibrational of you. I heard you say that you had a [00:40:00] traumatic childhood. What, what happened? Well, Adrienne: not traumatic, but, you know, my parents were divorced. My dad wasn't around a whole lot. You know, we were, you know, mom writing hot check for groceries, stuff like that.So, And I've, I've also looked like a 34 year old woman since I was about eight. So I was like five 11 I think by the time I was in the fourth grade. So just, just a weird, awkward a childhood lacking of privilege, I'll put it that way. So not too mad. I know there's a lot of people who've had it worse, so De'Vannon: we've come to a point in this fucked up ass country where the things that you just said, Or just as common as rain.Yeah, absolutely. But that shit's fucked up. It's not supposed to be that way. Yeah. That, that's still quite dramatic. We're this, this, this country has got so used to trauma, but I guess that's true. You know, from shootings in schools and every, wherever, every fucking day or a couple times a day to [00:41:00] this, this is like, oh, well dude, this is what we do.We get divorced and we shoot people. How are you? Right, right. Yeah. Whatever. I'm getting me a fucking Mexico citizenship. Yeah. Adrienne: I, I, yeah. Well, take me with you. I don't know where we're going, but it sounds great. De'Vannon: So what about your to, to the gaze, obviously to the gaze. I really, really like the way the cartel runs their state.Yeah. Down there there's nothing but peace in the streets. And people just don't, there's you, don't you? There's no violence, there's no fentanyl in the damn narcotics that you don't have that foolishness in Mexico. Why the fuck can the cartel run a country better than politicians? Adrienne: That's a really good question.That's a really good De'Vannon: question. Because they don't lie. I mean, they don't have an agenda. If you fuck up, you like die or you just gonna be dealt with. And it's just, it is what it is. It is what it's exactly. [00:42:00]And so that's my love going out to all my helico people down there. Have you ever seen anybody in your profession who just could not deal?I'm talking about somebody who had made it through school and was already. In the profession, and then something happened and they were just like, I can't even, Adrienne: yeah. And I've seen people that were almost a good fit, but then in some very important ways discovered that they were not. So I think I think the pandemic was an incredibly difficult time for this pro profession.And I think that if you made it through that, then you probably are made of, of, of the tough stuff and, and you're gonna make it through throughout your career. But yeah, it's high pressure. It is incredibly it's incredibly difficult and a lot of times it's thankless and a lot of times it's back to back to back to back.And, and [00:43:00] that can be difficult if you don't kind of so you know, at a lot of firms, when you have a properly functioning team, you can kind of support one another. So for instance, if a funeral director has a death in the family, A lot of times it's a little hard to deal with other people's families when you're actively dealing with your own grief.You know? So in those kind of cases, a director might step back from the front of the house stuff and just do prep room kind of stuff. So, or I'm, I'm particularly skilled with more tragic kind of cases, or maybe not skilled, but I'm, I'm more willing to, you know, put me in there, coach for a lot, a lot of the more difficult cases that some, some folks shy away from.But I can't do those kind of cases back to back to back, so I might have to No, continue. I, I saw your quizzical eyebrows and so I'm, I'm waiting for your, for your De'Vannon: question. Um, What, can you give me an example of what a difficult case would [00:44:00] be versus a non difficult case? Adrienne: Well, you know, we're all gonna die and I think when you know, when grandma dies after three months of hospice care and everybody got to fly in and.See her and hold her hand. And you know, you have that time to at least intellectually prepare for a death or if it's a death, that's kind of an in order death. Those, I don't wanna say they're easy. I mean, you, the person who's burying their mom, it's gonna be difficult for them regardless. But those kind of deaths that are expected and kind of feel more natural versus you know a two year old who was shot or a 13 year old who hung himself or a murder, suicide or just the tragic kind of circumstances because the care that the families need or, or, or when there's a death in kids are there.So not, not physically present with the death, but I mean, like when someone, when a child loses a parent, something like [00:45:00] that, or a child loses a sibling, those kind of cases are. Just a lot more complex in what the families need from the funeral director. And so there's just more coming out of the cup as it were, you know than with some, some deaths that are natural.I don't know if natural is the right word, but I think you get my meaning. De'Vannon: Right. What's your what's your most gut wrenching memory? Like something that when you think about it, it justAdrienne: I had a couple of of, of tough cases. I had one, the last place I was working in Louisiana was during Covid. And one lady, God bless her, she lost six family members inside of six months. They weren't all covid but. Yeah, she, she basically lost everyone that she loved. And so like the, the, like the, the [00:46:00] fifth or sixth time when I answered the phone, hi Peter, this is Adrian.And I heard her voice. I literally was like, are you hitting me? I never wanted to talk to you again. And it made her just have a belly laugh. So I'm glad that you know, that I was the one to help her through that. But that was difficult. I mean, I had one where, ah, a kid killed himself. Poor dumb kid, you know?And I had to pooch his Boy Scout truth were the Paul bearers. And so trying to talk that Boy Scout, you know, these kids through what is certainly a foundational moment in their lives, you know, it's the first time they've lost anyone and it's a peer. And they're at this like hugely well attended funeral service and all eyes on, and they, and it's the first time they're having to step into that role.And so having to give them kind of the. Giving them the pep talk and, and you know, the eyebrow nods and the getting 'em through it. That part of that, that, that one [00:47:00] stuck with me. That was a, that was a difficult one. So there's a lot. I mean, it's really, I think part of the beauty of this job, as draining as it can be, is I get to see some of the most beautiful human moments that are, you know, I had one time I we were about to put the urn into the niche, into the, you know, the wall of the mausoleum and I don't know, I think he was like eight and it was his grandfather, but they were very, very close and it was a very tough loss for him and Right.You know, right at the end, this little kid, you know, I'm like, you know, ladies and gentlemen, this is concludes our services and blah, blah, blah. And this kid just gets up and he goes and he lays on the table and he hugs the irm. You know, and it was just this incredibly beautiful, poignant display, you know?[00:48:00] And as hard as that was to kind of navigate, I what an honor it is to just see that and, and to be able to help that kid process that, De'Vannon: thank God for the silver lining in these dark ass rain clouds. Now you've mentioned the pandemic a couple of times, and you know, when we were in the thick of it all over tv, you know, you saw like the the nurses, doctors, frontline workers, morticians or caregivers as well.So was there a lot of burnout? And is, is there anything you'd like the world, the world to know about your a how the covid effected y'all since it really didn't get a lot of media coverage? Well, Adrienne: it didn't, and I guess thanks for noticing that it didn't, so, because it, it did mean, not necessarily personally, but I've got some colleagues that were working in New York City at the height of the game.Oh lord gee. Yeah, I mean, and so when New York had, its like a heroes parade kind of [00:49:00] a thing, initially funeral directors were not included. And yeah, that was felt, that was felt by people, you know, because, you know just little old me in New Orleans, not New York, so we didn't have those kind of numbers.It was a hotspot city. It was bad. Wasn't that bad. But yeah, I mean, I know how many hours I was working a day and how many days, days on end that I quarantined myself from my family because I didn't want to bring home those germs. And so, you know, I was spending spending, you know, a week at a time.Away from them. So it's difficult not just because of the long hours and the hard work, but being separated from the emotional support of our families, you know, to keep them safe. That's incredibly difficult. And then to have everyone from, rightfully so, but everyone from, you know, the, the worker who shows up at Walgreens [00:50:00] and nurses and Uber drivers, rightfully so thanked and appreciated for showing up and for getting out there and for exposing themselves to risk so that they could serve their community in whatever the way that they do.But then not to have, not to have funeral directors included, kind of smarted a bit. So, but they did, I know at least with the, the first big one, the New York Heroes Parade or whatever, they did add funeral directors, but it was an afterthought, you know? But, but, and honestly, I think it's just kind of depressing.I think I, I don't think it was like an intentional slight like, ah, Stupid morticians. Nobody cares about this. It wasn't that, but it was, you know, how do we keep this hero's parade upbeat and like high five nurses, good job doctors, and great job, bringers of the Dead. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's, it's, it's to acknowledge a mortician is to acknowledge death.And I think, you know, at certain points it just, it gets a little sticky. [00:51:00] But yeah. De'Vannon: Well, I, I, I love morticians and from my ww f Fandom Wrestling Days, you know the Pa Paul? Oh yeah. The Undertaker, the under the Paul Burrows, one of my fa everyone's fucking favorite character. He's coming there with that be toning his theme music and shit.That bitch was boss, so Yeah. I, I fucks with y'all. I fucks with it. Adrienne: We're fun at parties. I'll tell you what. So that's, that was my joke is you know, I'm my, I have a degree in religion. I was very politically active back in, back in my day, and I'm a mortician, so, you know, I'm fun at dinner parties.Right. So I, I bring all the good hot topics. De'Vannon: What, what kind of reactions do you get from people when, when you tell them what you do? Dinner parties or wherever? Adrienne: I've gotten some, I've gotten, so I lived, I was in Miami when I first started funeral school. I lived in Miami. And I was the, one of the two little [00:52:00] moments of my life where I was kind of a stay-at-home mom.So my daughter was started school in Miami. It's her first time at this school. And so I was doing like, you know, p t a kind of crap and selling pencils and doing whatever. And I had this like p t a buddy lady I don't remember her name or anything, but anytime we had a little activity, she was my buddy and we'd, you know, hang out.And then in talking, when I said that I was gonna start funeral school, She never made eye contact with me again. So for some people there's a really serious kind of taboo about it and people like literally avert their eyes sometimes. So that's kind of interesting. But for the most part people are just, I, I think either shocked because you don't meet many morticians and or shocked because I'm a lady mortician.And so I think it's, that's surprising to them too. And so a lot of times they kind of assume that I'm just, just a funeral director, [00:53:00] not to minimize people that are solely funeral directors, but they assume that I'm just a funeral director and that of course, I'm not an embalmer. No. You know, so that's interesting seeing people's reaction in that way, but for the most part, people are just curious.And I have gotten some very interesting questions from people, you know. De'Vannon: Y'all running from the mortician or averting your eyes, like what Adrian is saying is not gonna help you to cheat death. Adrienne: It's true. It's like they think I'm jinxing them. Yeah. So De'Vannon: We better get a grip on ourselves and get, and get with the program.You know, like, like when King David from the, from the, from the Bible got ready to die, he said, you know, I go the way of all the earth. Mm-hmm. You know, if you wanna believe you're coming back as a butterfly or a stingray or whatever, okay, that's on you. But either way, you gotta die before you can be reincarnated if that's what you believe is going to happen.So you cannot run from death. And the, the thing [00:54:00] that intrigues me the most, or intrigues me or extends out to me the most about death is something that my my spiritual mother evangelist Nelson would tell me when she was a alive. And, you know, she was like, it is no old people don't die as much as young people.You know? And I thought about it, I was like, I've been to a lot of funerals in my life, but maybe five of those were old people. Most of them have been people like in between like 20 and 40. Wow. You know, so, so no, we, we, we, we, we won't be running from death and don't be, don't be stupid and think just because you're young that you're guaranteed to live to get old.So get a grip on it. Get your spiritual life in order, because eventually you will be laying down on a table in front of Adrian someone. Well, yeah, Adrienne: and it's, and it's, I, some, I, I don't know. I guess I have my personal belief [00:55:00]system. I e everything's gonna be okay. It's either nothing or. Everything's fine.You know what I mean? I, I believe in a benevolence underneath underlying the universe. And so I'm not afraid of whatever's in the next room, so to speak. You know what I mean? But there are people that are just, that are deeply, deeply fearful of it. And it's sad. It just, and, and so you're right. So the kind of reaction is not to kind of process and reflect on that, but rather to completely avoid it.And, but that's not how this works, you know? Avoiding it, pretending it doesn't exist. It doesn't help. De'Vannon: Yeah. You don't want everything about how you live in this life affects your afterlife. The, the dead people I know, they still speak to me like in dreams and stuff like that. That's why I don't believe in reincarnation, because they are still spirits.So they couldn't be a giraffe and still hear in spirit talking to me. And so [00:56:00] you don't wanna part this plane of existence like. Like in any kind of like spliced way. Like you don't wanna like be feeling like you're being ripped. You need to be, you need to be at a point where you're ready to let it go because you don't want Absolutely.You don't wanna wrecked afterlife one thing that taught me this when I was in middle sch in high school now as a teenager, and I woke up dying in the middle of the night. I had like a strange heart rhythm. You know, it happens in teens sometimes. Yeah. It just does. And I woke up and I couldn't breathe.Like, I couldn't catch my breath. I'm not asthmatic it, I've never have been. It wasn't that, it wasn't an episode, it was like, and as this was happening in this dream state or whatever, I was in, it's like I was looking down this tunnel at the reception hall at the church that I was attending, but it was like, it was the, the person that I saw was someone who was dead already, and I [00:57:00] didn't recognize the other people.So it was almost like it was a flipped. A version of a reality and it almost looked like the dead people were still doing the same stuff that they used to do when they were alive. And as my breath was escaping me, it's like I saw them and I remember just really, really, really wanting more time. Cause I was like, somewhere between 15 and 16, you know, I was like, you know, I really wanted more time and I just could not breathe.I couldn't force myself to breathe. The air was just leaving and none was coming back in. And I just like passed out or whatever. And then I woke up, you know, the Lord wasn't ready for me to die. But what I remembered is that I wasn't ready to go. And I hated that sense of not being prepared. Adrienne: Well, no, and that's back in the old days, people used to carry like little do dads and jewelry pieces that would say, memento mori, remember you must die.You know, it's, it's the fact that we know that this is a [00:58:00] terminable date. That this life is not forever makes us value what we have right now. And I think that when you have that kind of experience, that it really, it makes you confront and be purposeful about, about where you are now because you have that undeniable experience of knowing that it's not forever.You know?De'Vannon: And I know, I know we're slightly over time. Can, can you gimme another Oh, I don't care. I'll talk to Adrienne: you all night. I'm fine. I ain't doing shit De'Vannon: today. Thank you. I appreciate it. There's a, there's a couple of more points that I really, really, really, really, really a need to make. Let's talk about life insurance for a second here.Okay. But my aunt kicked the bucket a couple of years ago. This shit, okay? She was one of those ones who liked to go spend a per check at the riverboat casino. Every, every month. I'm not judging her for that. We had plenty of good times at Casino. She was also one of those ones who [00:59:00] believed that the rapture would happen and that, that she therefore did not need life insurance.Well, she died and she didn't have any life insurance, and then she didn't have any savings because it was all up at the casino. Because she was always gonna strike it rich. Okay? On average, at least down here in Louisiana, I don't know what it is, everywhere else, you're looking at about 10 ish grand.Okay. To, to put a bitch in the ground if they're not a veteran, a beast, you know? So if you die and you don't have no money, then that burden then falls to your loved ones to either, I guess, just discard you and leave you in the morgue. Down here you'll see people having car washes and bake sales and shit, trying to hustle money to pay for a funeral.And these are not necessarily like, I mean, my mean, my aunt was like an older person. I think she was in like her sixties, seventies. Okay. Right, right. Like a 15 year old kid who just happened to, you know. Yeah. It's not a surprise Adrienne: that you know, [01:00:00] that you might die someday days or relatively soon, you know?Yeah, no, it happens. It happens all the time. And different, different places. So what's the question? So what do you do? Like, De'Vannon: I'm, I'm stressing the fact that this sort of thing can tear families down in a Oh, absolutely. Because my, a sibling that I no longer talked to attacked me because in their opinion, all three of a siblings were supposed to come up with like $2,500 or something like that.I told my mom to burn her sister up and cremate her. You don't have no money, you don't have no options. But my, but my mom didn't wanna do that, and so I was like, okay. Then I will figure out what I'm gonna donate and then we'll just do the funeral. But I'm giving you the side eye cuz I don't agree, but I'm still gonna help you, my mother.But the sibling of mine decided that they were going to come up with the money. [01:01:00] This person's always been controlling and I think probably a little narcissistic too, if not much. And so they decided to insult me and call me like entitled and everything. Cuz I said, I'm not paying 2,500 or 2,800.Let me see what I could come up with. And then they went and drudged up, you know, over, you know, years ago when I was homeless in Houston, when I got h i right and, you know, hepatitis and all of that. And were saying like, you owe this to our parents and they helped you and everything like that. I was like, no, no, they're not doing that now.It's not the time for you to bring up my history and then use it as a weapon to demonize me because you cannot control me. But. Her not having life insurance is what made the breeding ground for this. Now, this sibling of mine should have been come to me if they had some beef about what I went through.Right, right. Adrienne: And not, not wait for this terrible loss in your family to then also bring that up. How ridiculous is that? But it happens all the time. And I [01:02:00] think it's because it's, it's easier to fight with your siblings than it is to grieve a loss a lot of times. So, but you're absolutely right. Not every state life insurance isn't part of pre-planning in every state, which I didn't really know.So in Louisiana, yeah, if you wanna pre-plan, most of the time you, you sit down, you figure out what services you want, how much they cost, and then you essentially buy a, a, a, a, an insurance policy to fund it. Not every state does that. So it would, Maine, they have mortuary trusts and you specifically cannot have you can't sell life insurance for the purposes of funerals.But the point, the point, the underlying point being, We're all going to die. And a lot of people kind of make some assumptions about what's gonna happen or what the contingencies are, and oh, don't worry about me, just donate me to science. That's not how that works. So in most places, you have to be on a donor registry 30 to 60 days before death, and you're still not [01:03:00] guaranteed for acceptance.If they're all filled up with, you know, 67 year old chubby white ladies that day, then your body's not gonna be donated and someone's gonna have to pay for your funeral. Now, some states you know, some places the coroner will step up or there there's indigent funding or something like that. Like the city will pay X amount of dollars for cremation and y amount of dollars for burial, that kind of stuff.So sometimes there are some kind of safeguards, but not all the time and not every municipality. So there were some parishes in Louisiana. If you had a living blood relation who had a penny to their name, you were not going to be paid for your, you know, indigent funeral stuff was not gonna come into play.The coroner was simply not gonna approve that. So it is wise to, on some level, have some kind of preparation, whether or not that's a life insurance policy, an [01:04:00] emergency savings fund, or something like that. I think to your point, too, expressing what it is that you want or would want or absolutely don't want.So at some point I never knew, but my mom, she was like, please don't cremate me. That idea horrifies me. Okay. Dooly noted. You know what I mean? So, funding not withstanding, I, I know what she wants to do. So there's not, because families, a lot of times there's, there's, there is contention about what to do and the fact that sometimes families are limited by what, what funds they have available, you know, so yeah, aside from pre-planning, just giving yourself and your family members the grace to, you know, maybe grandma would've wanted a, you know, a copper basket and a most beautiful spot in the cemetery, but if you've only, you're only able to muster a couple of thousand dollars, then that's not gonna happen.And so let's, let's give ourselves permission to just do [01:05:00] what needs to be done and, you know offer ourselves some grace and forgiveness and it not being what we wish we could do, you know? But yeah, family, family, family's fighting all, all the time. Not just about financial stuff, but it, it becomes, I, I literally had one time, two sisters, dad died, his two sisters left, and at some point, the arrangement conference, I don't know what made her mad, but she looked over at her sister and she said, I don't even know why you're here making these arrangements.Daddy never even loved you. So, okay, let's take a step back ladies. Let's maybe take a deep breath and acknowledge that we're going through some difficult things right now, and maybe not try to rectify the entire history of your difficult sibling relationship right now. You know what I mean? So yeah, yeah.We, we see that girl. De'Vannon: Y'all get life [01:06:00] insurance. I don'

Abby has always had a heart for birth. She became doula-certified long before becoming a mother and even introduced her husband to The Business of Being Born on their second date! She knew that undisturbed, physiological birth was the way she wanted to go.But Abby's birth experiences were filled with wild twists and turns including chorioamnionitis, posterior and breech positioning, pulmonary embolisms, hemorrhaging, multiple miscarriages, an ICU stay, and many blood transfusions. With the odds stacked against her, Abby did not give up the fight. She knew deep in her soul that a VBA2C was something she could do.AND SHE DID!Fresh off of her VBA2C, Abby shares every intense, tender, and raw moment of her journey. We know you'll love Abby just as much as we do.Additional LinksAbby's WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hello, this is Meagan with The VBAC Link and today we have another beautiful story for you. We are so excited to share all of these stories in this beautiful 2023. It's going to be a great year. That is what I keep saying. It's going to be a great year. No more weird viruses and all of the things. It's just going to be a good, positive year and we are starting this week out with a positive VBAC story. We have Abby with us today and she is from North Carolina. Is that correct? Abby: Yes, Charlotte, North Carolina. Meagan: Yes, I love it. We have quite a few doulas in North Carolina as well. Maybe you guys could all connect. She is actually a doula as well. She is not practicing right now because she has a whole bunch of little bodies around, but this birth has totally motivated and boosted her spirits into the day that she does get back into doula work. So Abby, welcome. Review of the WeekMeagan: I am going to share a quick review and then we will jump right into your beautiful story. Abby: I can't wait. Meagan: Me neither. I really can't wait for your story. This is PaigeBroadway. She shared her review and it was on Apple Podcasts. It says, “Allowing me to believe in myself.” Just that subject right there makes me so happy because that is exactly why The VBAC Link exists is allowing you to believe in yourself. We talk about this all of the time. It's to believe in yourself to make the decision that is best for you. We don't always have to have a VBAC. We don't always have to have a repeat Cesarean. Or maybe a VBAC is chosen to a repeat Cesarean or a scheduled one. It doesn't matter the way we birth, but as long as we believe in ourselves and we believe in our ability to make the right choice for us, that is exactly what this podcast is for. Her review says, “My husband and I are currently trying to conceive. I knew immediately after my C-section that I never wanted to have an experience like that again. This podcast has already given me the strength to switch providers and the knowledge to prepare for a VBAC. I can do this.” Paige, you absolutely can do this. Just like all of the others here, right? Right, Abby? Do you feel like that? Abby: Oh my gosh. That is just the most encouraging thing and that's how I felt about The VBAC Link for five years and now I'm here telling my story. So yes, Paige. You can do it. You really can. Meagan: Yes. You really, really can. We always accept more reviews. You can drop us an email at info@thevbaclink.com or Apple Podcasts or Google Play. You can send us a message on Instagram. Wherever it may be, we love to read your reviews. We love to receive your reviews. So definitely if you wouldn't mind, push pause and drop us a review. Abby's StoriesMeagan: Hello, women of strength. This is Meagan. I am so happy that you are listening to the podcast. When I was preparing for my vaginal birth after two Cesareans, it was hard to find the evidence-based information in one spot. It could lead me to feel lonely or even confused. This is why Julie and I created The VBAC Link Podcast. Did you know that we also send out emails with helpful tips and advice on how to achieve your VBAC all easily digestible in one email form? Just head over to thevbaclink.com. Okay, Abby. We have so many stories on this podcast and I know that like you said, here you've been for five years and now you are here sharing your story. You are just fresh. You are fresh out of it, right? 2 weeks? Abby: Very fresh. I just stopped wearing Depends the other day. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. That is fresh. That is fresh out of it. Abby: Very fresh. Meagan: Fresh out of birth. Sometimes I feel like right out of birth is so fun because again, it's so fresh and it's in the forefront of your mind so you have all of the detailed things to share. I am so, so, so excited for you to share your story. So go ahead. Abby: Oh my goodness. Well, I should start at the beginning about five years ago. My daughter is turning five on January 31st, so it's been almost exactly five years since she was born. I went to a doula training when I was 20-22ish years old way before my husband and I met. On our first date, he told me that he didn't want to be in the room when the baby was born. I literally told him that he should go on a date with someone else because it was so important. I was like, “This isn't going to work out.” I showed him The Business of Being Born on our second date and he has changed dramatically since then. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I'm dying. Abby: But I feel like that just gives a little bit of a background of who I am as a human being. Meagan: And your passion. Abby: I feel very strongly about it. Yes, yeah. I was really quite young. Honestly, I have to give a shoutout to a friend of mine who is now a midwife but was a doula at the time. We went on a mission trip to Africa. We were sitting on a bed in Uganda and she was talking about how beautiful birth was. I was a teenager. I think I was soon to turn 21. It was like, “Why would you not get an epidural?” I was very far away from childbearing years at the time. I just didn't understand. She just sat patiently with me and explained in such a beautiful way how beautiful birth is and that it can create a mother and that it's worth it to go through what you go through and come out on the other side of it. It was just such a meaningful conversation for me. It really shifted my whole worldview and made me who I am today.  It's interesting thinking back on that girl who would have said, “Why would you not get an epidural? Why would you want to have a natural childbirth?” to the way that my stories ended up which is just bananas. Needless to say, I was very crunchy and felt like, “Okay. I'd love to have a home birth.” It was my first baby, so my husband was like, “Maybe we should do a birth center.” At the time, there was a birth center in Charlotte, so that's the direction that we went. I was just picturing the twinkle lights and a tub and all of the things that you see on Instagram for birth. That was the mental picture that existed in my brain. At that time, I was listening to another birth podcast and I specifically remember skipping over C-section stories. I was just not interested in them. I didn't even think it applied. It wasn't intentional. It was, “Oh, well I don't need to listen to those because I'm not going to have a C-section.”Meagan: That's not what I'm doing. Exactly.Abby: Yeah, that's not what I'm doing, so why would I need to listen to that? In retrospect, that really messed me up and I love that y'all's podcast mentions that this is a podcast for all moms. This does not need to just be people who have had C-sections. I think listening to The VBAC Link can help you prepare to a) not have a C-section, but also prepare for a C-section if that's what has to happen for you. It was just a really difficult transition for me from the twinkle light picture to ending up with a C-section. But my pregnancy with Hadley was fine. It's funny because I'm older now and I'm like, “Oh, that pregnancy was great.” I was in great shape and I was much younger. Everything was fine and easier. I did have a rib pop out of place. I know now that she was sunny-side up for almost the entire pregnancy, so my whole third trimester was excruciatingly painful. I had never seen a chiropractor before that, so I went to a chiropractor eventually but it was really just like bandaids. It wasn't really helping because my body was not in the right condition beforehand. I'm a really big proponent of bodywork. That will come back in the rest of my story. But at the time, I didn't know what I didn't know. I was in a lot of pain toward the end, but other than that, everything was fine. I went overdue which I expected. I was excited when I made it to 37 because I was still allowed to be at the birth center. I think I was probably pretty ready. I tried to do some induction acupuncture, and I'm not sure if it actually did anything but a couple of days later, I started having what I felt like were contractions. I had never been in labor before, so they were two minutes apart but really, really short and not getting any longer. I was just confused.My doula-gut was like, “This feels off, but also I'm dying.” I don't know what to do about this. So we called my doula over and went to the birth center after almost 48 hours of having those contractions at home. Again, if I knew then what I know now, I would have taken a bath and had some Epsom salts. It was probably prodromal labor. We went to the birth center and I can't not tell this part of the story. I told the midwife, “If you tell me that I'm 1 centimeter, I'm going to kick you in the face.” She backed up because I was only 1 centimeter. Oh, I was like, “No, don't back up. Come in my face and tell me I'm a 4 or something.” I just knew at that point that it was over because I was like, “I'm so tired. This is the point when I'm asking for an epidural and I'm 1 centimeter.” How could I possibly get through this?The worst news was yet to come. She said, “You have to transfer to the hospital. You have a fever of 100.2.” She thought that I had chorio. I think, I don't know how to say the actual word. It's chorioamnionitis. Meagan: Yeah. That's why they call it chorio. Abby: Exactly. Meagan: Infection. It's an infection. Abby: Right. It's a uterine infection. She said, “I'm sorry. I'm diagnosing you with a uterine infection. You have to go to the hospital.” I was just devastated. Honestly, that was the point of my birth where I feel like I really lost all of my power as a person and a mother. The rest of the birth felt like it just happened to me. I was not an active participant. I went to the hospital and they said, “You actually don't have a fever,” because the hospital system's standard of fever is over 100, and at the hospital, I was 99.7 or something. So they said, “You don't have a fever. We're going to let you labor.”Meagan: So it went down?Abby: I don't know if it went down or if it was just a different thermometer and they were like, “According to us, you don't have a fever so we'll let you labor.” In retrospect, it was good news because if they had just sliced me open the second I got there, I probably would have never set foot in a hospital again and that would have been very bad news for my second birth. So I think that would have really turned me off of the medical system altogether and doctors. I just would have gone real red pill in the other direction. So they let me labor, but I ended up with an epidural at 1 centimeter. I tried to get in the little dinky shower at the hospital and it was cold half water. I was like, “This is doing nothing.” I wanted to be in the tub at the birth center. I ended up with an epidural flat on my back and at that point, you're like, “Well, who cares? If I'm already here, why not do Pitocin? Why not break my water?” So thus began the cascade of interventions ironically that started with an epidural. I feel like that's not always the case, but that was very much the cascade of interventions for me. I did not want them to break my water, but eventually, they did. I was there for three days and they really let me go for a really long time. Meagan: That's actually really impressive for a hospital.Abby: I was so pleased with the care that I received. Both of the OBs that were flipping on and off of call were very patient with me. I think they kind of knew, “Oh, this is one of those birth center moms. We might as well just let her try.” Meagan: Let her do it. Abby: That was kind of a vibe that I got, but it was genuine. They really were like, “Yeah. You can totally do this.” But really, it was an unnecessary induction because I was 1 centimeter and I wasn't really in labor. I wasn't having true labor contractions. I wish that I had just gone home and gone to sleep, but we wouldn't be here having this conversation if that happened. I got to 10 eventually and I made it to pushing eventually. The epidural that I had was so strong that I could not feel from my shoulders all the way down. I was numb. I've never been so numb in my life, but again, I didn't know that's not what an epidural was supposed to feel like. They were telling me to push and I was just like, “What do you mean?” They told me to lift my legs up and I was like, “I can't hold my legs. They weigh 4000 pounds. What are you talking about?” The nurses were not as kind as the OBs and I could tell that they were not approving of my pushing and that it wasn't doing what it was supposed to be doing. But the benefit of Hadley's birth, she asked that I say her name on the podcast, so the benefit of Hadley's birth was that by the time I made it to 10 and pushing, they tried to use the vacuum seven times. They tried all of the things. They really, really let me go. So by the time they said it was time for a C-section, I really trusted them. I didn't feel like it was a snap judgment. I felt like, “You know what? Okay. I agree. If this isn't working, it's not working. There's nothing else we can do.” So come to find out, she was sunny-side up. Meagan: I was going to say, was she sunny-side up still?Abby: She was. She was. So when they had broken my water, she basically got stuck up in that broken rib cage and never made it around my pubic bone. I also did have chorio we found out after. Meagan: Oh no way. Abby: It was just the wildest. We joke that it was a Murphy's Law birth and that every random thing could have possibly happened, but everyone was fine. I was fine. Hadley was fine, but it was deeply traumatic for me. I really did not feel like I was present for it at all. It was really difficult to feel like I wanted to have this empowering, personal experience and it was so impersonal and medicalized. I was separated from Hadley for the first few hours of her life and they took me into, I don't even know what it's called, but it was a terrible experience. My husband was super traumatized because it wasn't what he thought was happening either and it was really, really difficult for us. That is really when I started listening to The VBAC Link right away. I was like, “Done. I'm having a VBAC. That was terrible. I'm not doing that again.” I felt pretty strongly about that. Unfortunately, it took us two and a half years to get pregnant with our second. We had three miscarriages along the way, so a lot of our story has been “not right nows” and “maybe laters”. We are really thankful for the children that we have which is wild how they all got here at the correct time. We were filling out adoption paperwork in January 2021 after so long of trying and found out on February 1st the day after my 5-year-old's third birthday that we were pregnant. It was the darkest line I've seen since I was pregnant with Hadley. It was like, “This is the baby. This is the one. She's going to stick around.” I felt like this was my VBAC. I don't know if that was just my personality and my, “Oh, this is going to happen. I'm going to manhandle this into being the case,” but I very much wanted it to be my VBAC. That pregnancy went kind of similarly with rib pain. I started chiropractic earlier this time, but still really struggled with the rib. Her name is Ginnie. Ginnie was sunny-side up the whole time, so that was against me from the beginning that she was sunny-side up, but again, I don't know how I didn't spend more time thinking about it or trying to get her into a better position, but I just didn't. It was honestly the height of COVID and I had a toddler. Life was just still happening, so I went into labor I thought. I was 39 weeks exactly and my water broke at home. I was elated because, with Hadley, my water didn't break on its own so I felt like, “Oh my gosh. Labor is starting. I'm going into labor naturally. This is exactly what I wanted.”I stood up and it was a gush. It was very much my water. It was no mistaking, “Okay, that's not pee. Definitely, my water has broken.” I was so excited and then nothing happened at all. Meagan: I can totally relate to that. Abby: Yes. I've listened to your birth stories. It was a Sunday so a friend came to pick up our toddler and we were all excited. We were going to have a baby. Nothing. Meagan: Nothing. Abby: Crickets. Not even a single cramp. I walked four miles that day. We did all of the things and it just was like no. We went to sleep that night and I was like, “I'm not going to the hospital until 24 hours and then I'm not even going to tell the hospital that it's been that long,” which is sort of what happened. We went in about 24 hours later and I still had not had a single contraction. Absolutely nothing happened. Meagan: Were you still leaking?Abby: Yes. Yeah. Meagan: Still coming. Abby: Again with the diapers, I need to buy stock in Depends at this point. But yes it was definitely my water and it was definitely not doing anything. I went to the hospital. Triage takes a million hours when you're not in active labor, so we were in triage forever and they wanted to get me hooked up to continuous fetal monitoring. I said, “Oh, okay. So I'll have the wireless one.” They were like, “Oh, it doesn't work.” I was like, “That's not what I signed up for.” My practice was very like, “Yes, you can have a VBAC.” Actually, my midwife was very, “You can have a VBAC,” but she was part of a practice that had OBs and you sort of don't know who you're going to get until the day of. I felt very supported throughout my whole pregnancy. Everyone thought I was going to have a VBAC. I had plenty of those conversations with OBs that they're like, “Okay, so just so you know, here are the risks.” I'm like, “Yeah, yeah. I know all of the risks. I've done the research. Thank you very much for informing me. Have a nice day.” When I think back, I think there were probably some red flags that it was friendly but not supportive.Meagan: Tolerant. Abby: Yes, a tolerant but not supportive practice. But again, I didn't know that until I knew that. I started an induction. My contractions started getting regular. It worked. I was dilating and I made it to about 6 centimeters. I don't think I mentioned this before but my husband had childhood cancer, so he has pretty severe medical trauma and hospitals are particularly triggering for him. Other people being in pain is also triggering for him. Meagan: I'm sure, yeah. Abby: Around 6 centimeters, I was starting to need a little bit more support. My doula, because inductions take forever, was like, “I'm just going to go home and spend the day at home. I'll come back at night when you really need it.” I was chilling. I was just watching Friends and hanging out until I wasn't. It started to pick up really quickly. What made me start to need more support was that they turned off the Pitocin when I had to go to the bathroom and then they turned it back on and didn't change the number. I think it was at a 9, but something about turning it off and turning it back on made my body go, “Whoa. That was really intense.” All of a sudden it felt like insane Pit contractions. My husband started to have a really hard time supporting me through it and my doula was stuck in line at Chick-fil-A. You know, once you're in the line, you can't get out of the drive-thru. Meagan: Of all the places too, darn it. Abby: We wanted it. I was like, “Bring me food. I want to eat something. I'm going to break all of these rules.” Meagan: She's getting everyone food and stuck. Abby: Yes, she's totally stuck. My husband needed to eat dinner. It had been a long day already, so she was stuck. I was like, “You know what? I have peace about this. I'm going to get an epidural. I'm going to ask for an epidural.” I really was pretty okay. I was not dying mentally at this point, but I felt like my husband needed a little break from me not being okay and I felt like, “I'm at a 6. I got an epidural at 1 centimeter last time so all right. We're doing it. This is happening. Things are progressing. Let's do it.” Naturally, my doula got back right before they were placing the epidural. She was like, “What are you doing? We're not doing an epidural. Let me do some hip compressions. What are you talking about?” She's very, “Come on. Let's do this.” That's why I hired her because I needed that, but I had made up my mind mentally. Meagan: Yeah, which is okay.Abby: Yes. Very much so. I think it is honestly what needed to happen for a litany of reasons. But once my doula got back, she noticed that my heart rate kept beeping on the monitor and when you're in hospitals, you hear beeping all of the time so we weren't paying attention to what the beeping was. It wasn't the baby's, so no one was really all that concerned, but my heart rate was insanely high. So much so that my doula was checking my Apple Watch for my history of what my normal heart rate was. She was like, “Give me your Apple Watch and let me look at what this normally is,” but I had only gotten my Apple Watch while I was pregnant, so I didn't have a baseline, “This is my normal heart rate.” Basically, the nurses just turned down the volume on my heart rate monitor that was saying, “Alert, alert! Something is wrong with this woman.” Meagan: That could be a sign of infection. Abby: It could be a sign of a lot of things. Meagan: A whole bunch of other things, yes. Abby: It seemed like my doula was the only one who was concerned about that. I was concerned only about having a VBAC so I was like, “Whatever. I don't want any hindrances to the VBAC. Don't panic about me because I'm good. Baby is good. I'm good. I'm fine.” Again, I made it to 10 and pushing. My heart rate was through the roof and I guess I need to rewind a little bit, sorry. I had a cough for the last four weeks of my pregnancy, maybe more like six. It was a dry cough and it was a the height of COVID, so I had 75 COVID tests because they said that I had COVID.” Meagan: Because you had a cough. Abby: Yes, exactly. They said that if I had COVID, my doula couldn't come into the birth with me. With my husband's history, I was like, “No, no. I have to have my doula. That's not an option.” I took 1000 COVID tests, but it was never COVID. It was never positive. I just had this dry cough that would not go away. The cough combined with the heart rate was really freaking my doula out even when I had an epidural. I took a little nap. I made it to 10 and pushing. When I was pushing, my cough really started to ramp up. I was coughing incessantly. I remember the midwives joking, “We're all going to have COVID at the end of this birth. Obviously, this lady has COVID because she is coughing up a storm.” We were talking about how one of the midwives had just gotten her taste or her smell back or something after having it. She was like, “Oh my gosh. I'm going to get it again.” It was all of this sort of lighthearted conversation, very, “Yeah, haha. We're all going to get COVID I guess.” Yes, except for my doula. She was like, “This is odd.” But she said, “You know, maybe you'll cough your baby out. Maybe it will help you. Maybe those pushes will help you get the baby out.” She was trying to be encouraging. I don't even remember. I should probably look at my notes on how long I pushed. I think it was a couple of hours and again, I had a sunny-side-up baby with my water broken. She was just lodged and would not come down. Meagan: Were they able to try and rotate at all or was she not low enough? Abby: Neither of the girls ever descended. I don't remember what station they were at, but it was high. I looked at a picture of my third baby at 37 weeks and my belly was so much lower at 37 weeks than either of the girls on the day I went into labor. They just never dropped. They were not ready really. So when they said that it was time, an OB came in who I had never met before and was not the kindest about the way that she shared that information with me. For me, I felt like, “Who's going to let me try for a VBAC after two? This is my opportunity to have a vaginal birth and if this is it, this is it. I can't.” But it felt like at that moment, everyone in the room just sort of fell to what she said. I didn't have a choice. Even my doula who I adore was like, “I think it is time.” So when your doula and your husband and your midwives all say, “I think it's time,” then what choice do you really have? Meagan: Well, you trust these people.Abby: Right, right. You also don't want to be the person who, this sounds horrible, but something happened to my baby because I was so hell-bent on having a vaginal birth. At that point, that's how the conversation felt. Her heart rate was dropping and it wasn't coming back up in between contractions. They were like, “Okay. I think it's time.” I reluctantly consented, but really, really struggled. I sobbed through the C-section and threw up through the C-section. I hate having my arms out like Jesus on the cross. It's just the worst thing in the world. It's just terrible. It's not for everyone. I feel like it's important for me to say that that was my experience. I have a friend who just had a C-section and she was like, “I thought that it was really cool to know that they were down there doing all of that stuff.” She had a great experience and I think that's amazing. I'm so glad she did, but for me, it was just so different than what I expected that it was deeply traumatizing for me, especially for the second time. But the baby came out and she was fine. I think it took her a couple of seconds to start breathing. I think she had some meconium or something, but they handed her to my husband. She was all cute and then they brought her over to me. She licked my cheek. I do remember having a very different reaction to meeting her than meeting my first daughter. With my first, I had never had a baby before and so I felt like the first thing I thought was, “I didn't think that's what she would look like.” I didn't feel like, “Oh my gosh, I made this human and I love it so much.” That was just not my experience. But with the second one, I had a three-year-old at the time and was like, “You're going to turn into the coolest little person,” and I knew how to love a child then so it felt much better and different which actually made the next part a lot harder. I still had my cough. It did not go away and after they had sewn me up on the table, every doctor had left the room and it was just the surgical techs and the people that are basically cleaning up the floor. I had to cough and my arms were still out. I was flat on my back and you know when you have a cough, you want to turn to the side or sit up and I couldn't do either of those things. My lips turned blue and they called a code. I was breathing so I don't know what the codes are. They pressed a big alarm and people came running. Brian, my husband, was holding the baby and they took her out of his arms and basically pushed him into the hallway so that he wouldn't see me die, I suppose was the thought, or drop the baby or who knows. I just wanted to turn over and I was trying to explain to these nurses while having a coughing fit, “Can you just let me roll over?” They were trying to put oxygen on my face. I was like, “That's not going to help this tickle in my throat. I don't want you to put oxygen on my face.” I was fighting them off. Meagan: I need to get up. Abby: Yeah, exactly. I was just like, “Why can't you understand me?” But I wasn't speaking words, so that's why. The first person who ran back into the room was my anesthesiologist and she apparently was a cardiac-specific anesthesiologist which I didn't even know was a thing. She took one look at me after I had settled down and said, “I believe that you just had a pulmonary embolism and you need to go to get a CT scan.” At that point, I didn't know what a pulmonary embolism was so I was not all that concerned about it. I was like, “You're silly. I just have a cough. I've had a cough for four weeks. What are you talking about?” I knew that my husband was going to be really upset obviously, but he wasn't going to be allowed to come with me to get a CT scan. I was like, “You have to let me go talk to my husband. I have to go tell him that I'm okay.” It's not funny, but it's now just sort of a dark humor inside joke that when I went to go talk to him, I was like, “Babe don't worry. It's just a pulmonary embolism.” He was like, “Abby, those kill people. That's not a just kind of thing.” They found several bilateral pulmonary embolisms in my lungs. One of my lungs was 98% occluded, so 2% away from not being able to make it. I spent the first two days of her life in the ICU. Again, it was COVID so I wasn't able to see her because everyone in the ICU was there for COVID. They were like, “We don't want your newborn to get sick,” and they were on different floors so they brought her to me one time and then I pumped milk for her that nurses took back and forth but it was really insane. Meagan: Wow. Abby: They gave me blood transfusions and immediately put me on heparin and a drip to start clearing up the blood clots and get them thinned out. When I got finally sent home from the hospital, I had to start blood thinner injections and do those for the next six weeks which unfortunately led to a postpartum hemorrhage. Meagan: Oh my land. Abby: It's a wild ride. This wasn't even that long ago. It was October 2021. I basically didn't have any postpartum bleeding for the first week. I was like, “Man, maybe the C-section is just the way to do it. Maybe this is making the bleeding a lot easier,” but what they think happened is that I had some major swelling and it was basically holding all of the blood in my uterus and by the time it opened up, it was like floodgates. I won't be too graphic, but when they tell you to call the doctor is when I called the doctor. I had a couple of other scary experiences at home. I passed some clots and they had given me some Cytotec which is supposed to squeeze the uterus. Meagan: Clamp the uterus down, yep. Abby: It clamped too much blood out and I lost too much blood in one hour basically. I passed out on the floor and I was on blood thinners so my mom caught my head because you can get a brain bleed if something happens while you are on blood thinners. I had to get a blood transfusion the next day. My postpartum experience was recovering from a C-section, recovering from the ICU, and then postpartum hemorrhages and I think I had three blood transfusions after being outside of the hospital. Meagan: Holy cow. Abby: I don't even know how to end that story and shift to the next one because it really was not that long ago. That daughter is now 15 months old. Like I said, it took us a long time to get pregnant with her so I suppose you could say that we were not all that cautious after she was born. Six months later, we found out that we were pregnant. Well, we didn't know at the time that it was a boy, but we found out that we were pregnant. I had already been asking the hematologist and the pulmonologist, literally everyone. I was like, “So what happens when I get pregnant? Do I need to be on the blood thinner injections on day one? How does this work? What am I going to do?” They all thought I was crazy because they were like, “This chick almost just died. Why is she thinking about getting pregnant?” I was like, “Is this ruling me out of a VBAC?” I had all of the questions. I'm glad in retrospect that I asked them early. I was like, “It could be two years from now, but I want to know what I'm supposed to do on day one. I'm not going to be seeing a pulmonologist on a regular basis when my baby is two, so I might as well just ask now.” I had all of the information that I needed which was wonderful, but I struggled really hard with nursing her. All of my kids had tongue ties and it's just been a difficult journey breastfeeding. Ginnie, the middle one, had colic and food allergies. I was down to seven foods that I could eat.Meagan: That's the worst. Abby: It was terrible. I was off eggs, soy, dairy, gluten, caffeine, tomatoes, and corn. Meagan: You weren't really eating anything. Abby: I really wasn't eating anything. I was losing my mind. I was pumping around the clock to try and get my supply back up. She was still not gaining weight and we just were like, “If this was working, I could maybe keep doing it,” but it wasn't working and she wasn't gaining weight, so I switched her to formula. Once I weaned, we pretty much immediately got pregnant. Very much a surprise but I feel like I need to share the beginning of this story because this is really the start of my VBAC story and I'm really going to try not to cry. I had a postpartum nurse when I was postpartum with Ginnie whom we had never met before, but she just adopted our family. She brought me Uncrustables in the postpartum room and those are the best. She was like, “Here's candy from the nurses' station.” I think you get a little extra attention when you're a pulmonary embolism mom in the ICU, so she just adopted us and became a friend to our family after the baby was born. She called me a week before Mother's Day and said, “Abby.” She was bawling. She told me that she hasn't cried in three years but this was the first time she cried. She was bawling her eyes out and said, “Abby, I just had a dream about you. I have to tell you the dream.” As a nurse, she has seen, in her time, one stillbirth and it really deeply affected her obviously. She had a dream that she went to heaven and saw her stillborn baby girl as a teenager. She was holding three of my children. Carly did not know that I had three losses because she met me after Ginnie was born. She just knew I was a miscarriage mom and in her dream, the reason she was sobbing was because she thought that meant I was going to experience more loss. She was devastated. She was like, “Oh my gosh. She's already been through so much. She just had a pulmonary embolism five months ago,” so this stillborn baby girl who was a teenager in the dream calmed her nerves and said, “No, no. These are supposed to be here but this little boy is coming down soon.”Meagan: I've got the chills. Abby: This is a true story. It's the craziest thing in the world. It's just wild to me that this is part of my story but it is. She said that he looked just like Hadley, my five-year-old, and that his name was John which is our boy name and my dad's name and my grandfather's name. That was always going to be the name. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Abby: We were like, “Okay. That's really weird.” You think that's weird. I think that's weird. It is the reason that I took a pregnancy test. We weren't trying so I wouldn't have taken one. It was the faintest little line. Truly, so, so faint but because I knew that I needed to be on Lovenox day one and because I knew from my miscarriage history, I needed to be on progesterone day one, it was a Friday so I texted my midwife and I said, “I need HCG labs and I need you to call me in progesterone and Lovenox.” My HCG that day was very, very low. I think it was a 5 and the lowest considered viable pregnancy is a 7. They want it to double or triple by 48 hours from now. I went back on Monday. I started my progesterone and Lovenox on that Friday with a very faint test and a very low HCG and it was up to 77 on Monday. It was doubling or tripling in the appropriate amount of time. I kept going back and it kept going. He is sleeping in the other room right now, so he clearly stuck. I really contribute his life honestly to Carly's dream and the fact that I never would have taken a pregnancy test. It was a Friday. I was able to be so proactive about the medicine and care that I needed. I knew when she told me the dream, I said, “I'm pregnant. This is going to be my VBAC.” I just knew it in my bones so intimately. I really don't know how to explain it. It was just a soul-knowing. I just knew. She was like, “The dream wasn't literal, Abby. I'm not saying you're pregnant right now.” I was like, “Nope. I know.” I just knew. I just knew. People always say things like that, but that had never been my experience, especially trying to conceive. You're always like, “Oh, I stubbed my toe. Is that a sign of pregnancy?” You're looking for every little thing and this time it was like, “No. I'm pregnant.” We've wanted a boy the whole time and I was like, “This is going to be my boy and this is going to be my VBAC.” I just knew. So really, on day one I started fighting like hell for my VBAC because it was after two and I knew that I was going to need to basically be a psycho about it. I think that's my biggest VBAC advice for people is that if you really want a VBAC, you have to kind of have to be a psycho about it because no one wants you to have a VBAC more than you want to have a VBAC. You need to advocate for yourself. I think a lot of people can take a sort of, “If it happens, it happens” attitude and that is fine if that is how you truly feel about it. If it happens, it happens but if you really, really, really want a VBAC, you have to really, really, really fight for your VBAC no matter how supportive your providers are, no matter how wonderful your doula is, it's only you who is going to get you that birth. You're the one who has to push the baby out. You're the one who has to do all of the work even if there are people helping you. And I did day one. We would like a large family, so our position from the beginning of the pregnancy was, “Well, if this baby is a C-section, then are probably done.” I really don't want to put myself through more than three C-sections. The other two were so deeply traumatic for everyone in our family. I can't imagine recovering from a C-section with three or four children. We are going to be done. So that really lit a fire under me to fight for it even more. Even if we do decide now to be done, I didn't want surgery to be what decided the size of my family. That was something I felt really strongly about. I started chiropractic on day one. I started doing all of the things. I took obviously all of my medicines and I just took really good care of myself and my body. I think bodywork played a huge part in my pregnancy this time around. We found out at 20 weeks at my anatomy scan that the baby was breech. I'd never had a breech baby. All of my babies were OP before, so I was like, “Okay. Surely this is 20 weeks. He's obviously going to flip at some point.” He really didn't. He was breech until 35, so I went to a Webster chiro twice a week. I did moxibustion. I did all of the Spinning Babies. I hung upside down off my couch 700 times a minute and did everything you could possibly do, handstands in the pool to flip a breech baby. Really, nothing was working. I went to a bodyworker who was like, I don't really even know how to explain what he does, it's something between chiropractic and massage therapy, but he tried to manually move the baby for me. It never worked. Nothing happened. They told me I couldn't have an ECV because I was a VBAC after two and my last birth was so recent and I had an anterior placenta. Meagan: All of the cards were stacked against you. Abby: So many cards. I basically was like, “I have this deadline. If I made it to 39, they're going to schedule me if he doesn't flip by then.” It was really dark honestly because I had that deep knowledge the whole time that this was going to be my VBAC. I really started to doubt that and say, “I've had such shit luck before now.” Sorry if I'm not allowed to cuss on the podcast. Meagan: You're just fine. Abby: Maybe my terrible luck is going to continue and it wasn't a true feeling, it was just a desire. He finally flipped after a lot of tears and a lot of, “I think I'm going to have to have a C-section.” I went to birth trauma therapy for the whole time. We talked a lot about, “Okay, well what happens if you do have to have a C-section? How are you going to be okay with it if that is the outcome?” He eventually flipped which, praise God, was amazing but the minute he flipped, he was LOA. I have never had a baby in a proper birth position. That is intense, girlfriend. He was down low doing what he was supposed to be doing and I was like, “Ow. This is a lot of pressure all of the time.” It was just constant pressure. It felt like a lot of contractions. They were obviously prodromal, but with my experience with Hadley, I just ignored them the whole time. I was like, “La, la, la, la, la. Nothing is happening.” He flipped at 35.5, maybe 36. The contractions really picked up right away. I never had a cervical check, so I don't know this but I have a feeling that I was walking around at a 3 or a 4 for a while. I was having very regular contractions, not necessarily timeable, but they were real for sure and doing something for sure. His position was doing something also. He was putting pressure down low and dilating me in my opinion. At about, I guess it was 38, everyone kept saying, my doula kept saying, “I think you're going to go early. I really think you're not going to make it.” I was like, “I'm going to go 42. Nobody is going to stop me. I will do whatever I need to do.” Meagan: Mentally prepared. Abby: I will have a 42-hour labor, okay? I will have a 42-hour labor if I need to have a 42-hour labor. I will do all of the things. They were all like, “No. You're not going to make it.” But then, when you keep not having the baby, you're like, “This is making me crazy.” Prodromal labor is insane. It's such a mental game. It's just like, “Is this it? Is this it? Is this it?” especially because I'd never gone into labor naturally before. But when it was it, I knew. There's really no denying it. I went to the chiropractor in the afternoon. I'm so excited. I'm about to start telling my VBAC story. Sorry I'm long-winded, but this right here is truly what I've been dreaming of for a really long time, so thank you for giving me this space to share my story. Meagan: Yes. I love it.Abby: I went to the chiropractor on a Monday at 4:00 and I said, “I think I'm going to go early. I've been having all of these contractions.” I had one while I was standing there talking to her. She actually encouraged me to get a membrane sweep. I denied them the whole time with all of my midwives. I was just like, “No, no, no. I'm not doing that.” She was like, “Hey, I went to 42 and I wish I had started the process a little earlier.” It made me doubt all of the prodromal labor I had been having because I was like, “Why do you think I need a membrane sweep? I'm obviously having a baby in the next five days.”Meagan: Yeah. You're like, “My body's working.” Abby: Exactly. That's what I thought. I was like, “I don't know about that.” But I had a contraction while I was standing there talking to her, checking out, and paying. She said, “Are you having a contraction right now?” I was like, “Yeah. This is just what it's been like lately.” I went home and was annoyed by the contractions. I drank a Body Armour with some electrolytes and took a bath because that usually slows the prodromal down. I had five contractions in the bath. I was like, “Hmm.” So I texted my doula and was like, “Usually when I take a bath, it stops the contractions. Surely this means that something is happening.”I didn't mention that for the last two weeks once he flipped his head down, I started bleeding pretty regularly. I'm on blood thinners, so I could get a papercut and it would be like the red sea, so it was not all that concerning. My doctors were like, “Well, it's not your uterus. The baby is okay. You would be in pain if you had a rupture. Everything seems okay.” Meagan: Yeah. Abby: My poor doula, I texted her a lot of pictures being like, “Is this bloody show? Is this bloody show? Do you think that this is bloody show?” But finally, on the night that I took a bath and had contractions in the bath, she said, “That looks like blood show.” I was like, “All right. Okay. Now we're cooking with gas. Something is happening.” I got out of the bath and was very annoyed. We had a long day. We have two other kids and my husband and I were both just so tired and wanted to go to bed. He said, “Can I make you some dinner?” I don't think I had eaten anything. He said, “I have a couple of steaks. Can I make you some steaks?” I was like, “That sounds awesome.” I was like, “I'm just going to sit in bed. I'm going to watch New Girl and ignore these contractions and eat some steak.” I attempted to do that, but the contractions were starting to pick up and I couldn't eat. I had to eat in between contractions and chew and swallow. I was not enjoying the steak at all. I lay down and I felt a pop. I had experienced my water breaking with Ginnie and I was like, “That was my water.” I texted my doula and said, “I think my water just broke.” She had been fielding all of these texts from me for the last two weeks about the blood and contractions and blah, blah, blah so it's not that she didn't believe me, but she was just like, “Okay, so tell me what makes you think that your water just broke.” I said, “Well, I didn't pee.” She was like, “Okay.” I got up out of bed. My husband had just put down a piddle pad underneath the sheets because he was like, “You know, just in case. You're having all of these contractions.” I didn't want to totally ruin the mattress, so I hopped up out of bed really quickly because I wanted to go back to sleep after my water had broken. I was like, “Even if there's a piddle pad, I don't want the sheets to be wet because I want to sleep in them.” It was a flood. It was very much my water. I was like, “Okay. Nope. That's okay. Things are happening.” And things really did start to happen so, so quickly. You know, as a doula, you have all of these numbers in your head of, “Okay, so there's 5-1-1 and you call the doula when it's 5-1-1 and then you go to the hospital when it's 4-1-1 and your contractions are a minute long and not slowing down in intensity.” That was very much not my experience. It was 0 to 60. I think the prodromal that I had been having just ramped my body right up and so there was no real labor. Meagan: That's the thing. Prodromal labor can do that because your body has been working. We call it prodromal labor but it's not like your body wasn't just doing anything. Abby: It did. It felt like it was doing nothing but it clearly was doing work. Meagan: It was. Yes. So listeners, if you have prodromal labor, seriously, just be on the lookout. Sometimes when labor does start and you've had a history of prodromal labor, it can start right out of the gate. Abby: It was aggressive. Meagan: Yes. Abby: So basically, immediately my contractions were two minutes apart and at first, they were 40 seconds. My doula was like, “You know, they can start out intense and maybe taper off a little bit.” That is not the direction that it went. They started ramping up in intensity. I watched about four minutes of New Girl and was like, “That's it.” And we were so tired. I just kept saying, “I want to do this tomorrow. I really just want it to wait.” With my middle child, I had been able to go to sleep after my water broke. I slept all night in my own bed and it just ramped up intensely so quickly. I hadn't washed my hair when I took a bath. It was just a soaky kind of bath, so I was like, “I'm going to go take a shower.” I wanted to wash my hair in the shower. I felt like then my doula could braid it and it would look cute in the morning and I'll just have clean hair. If I ended up with a C-section, I wouldn't be able to wash my hair for five days, so I might as well just do it now. My contractions picked up in the shower and I remember getting back onto my bed and being like, “I don't know how I'm going to get dressed.” Meagan: So intense. Abby: So intense. I just was expecting, even with the second birth, the contractions with the Pit were scheduled essentially. They were intense, but they were scheduled, so you get a break in between them. You get to, “Okay. Let me take a deep breath. Let me reassess.” There was no time for reassessing. Honestly, it was really scary. I have to be honest and say that I've had a lot of people say, “I'm so glad you got your dream VBAC.” I was like, “I don't think I would use those words.” I got a VBAC and I'm so glad that I did, but it was really, really scary because it was just so intense so quickly. Part of the birth plan was to stay at home for as long as possible. You don't want to go too soon and have them tell you that you're 2 centimeters and all of a sudden, you're stuck at a hospital, especially with your water broken. I just remember struggling to get dressed and telling my husband, “I think we need to go to the hospital.” He was like, “It's literally my job to tell her not to go to the hospital. I have one job and it's to not let her go there.” Meagan: It's to say no. Abby: I'm not supposed to do that. These are very specific instructions. So he called my doula and was like, “She's begging for you. She's really starting to moan through them and not be able to get sentences out.” She said, “Let me listen to her.” He put me on speaker and she said, “I'm going to meet you at the hospital. I think it's time to go.” I was like, “Thank God someone is letting me go to the hospital so I could get an epidural.” I was ready for this show to be over. I was like, “If I get an epidural, they'll let me take a nap.” All I wanted was to go back to sleep. I just wanted to go back to sleep. We got in the car. My friend was coming to keep our children and just sleep on our couch while we were going to the hospital and we were about to leave before she even got here. They were well asleep. It was 10:00 at night, but we were like, “We have to just leave the front door open for you.” She ended up making it. She saw me in the front yard and she was like, “Brian, do you think she's in transition right now?” He was like, “I don't know but this is really intense.” The car ride was horrible. We only live 9 minutes from the hospital, but it was just so intense, and just no breaks. It was scary and so painful. I follow pain-free birth on Instagram and they are liars. It is not pain-free. I just don't want anyone to listen to this podcast and be like, “Pain-free is what I experienced” because it is not. It is excruciating. You always think you are a badass until you're not. I was like, “No. Get me an epidural right now. I am dying. I will do anything. Just send me the anesthesiologist right now.” So by the time we made it to the hospital 9 minutes later, I was screaming. Screaming like in the movies and we always joke as my husband and I are now birthy people, I've transformed him to the dark side. Meagan: I love it so much. It all started with the Business of Being Born. Abby: Exactly. Meagan: Second date. Abby: Oh, literally. We always make fun of Hollywood movies where this woman's water breaks and she is screaming in the hospital 20 minutes later and that is exactly what happened to me. It was so instant. My water broke at 8:30. We called my doula at 9:30 and she said, “Holy crap. Go to the hospital.” We got to the hospital. Oh, I wish I had the exact timeline. I might have to look. We got to the hospital and I was screaming bloody murder getting out of the car. I don't even know how I walked out of the car to get to where I needed to be. The woman at the front desk heard me screaming and ran to get a wheelchair for me and run me up to the OB floor because this poor woman was like, “We are not having a baby in the lobby today.” Meagan: Yeah. I'm sure. Abby: She truly was like, “Go. This is my job. I'm going.” She ran me up to the OB floor and my doula apparently pulled in right behind us. She was on the floor but heard me screaming through the elevator from the 8th floor. I was screaming Meagan. It was a lot. I feel like I owe a lot of people some cookies at the hospital. My midwife said that I came in hot. Meagan: You came in hot. Abby: I really did. They were running me down the hall and this poor, I will never forget, this poor girl at the triage desk was very obviously new and she asked me if I could fill out paperwork. I was like, “Do I look like I could fill out paperwork right now?” I was sideways in the wheelchair with my leg up yelling at everyone. I just was like, “No. I will not be filling out paperwork right now.” They took me to triage which honestly was BS. I was like, “I'm obviously having a baby. Why do I need to go to triage?” But they saw me right away which was very helpful. I saw a midwife I had never met before which made me nervous because as a VBAC mom, you're like, “I want to know that it's the right people.” Meagan: Right. Abby: But around the corner comes– they tried to get an IV in my arm. I was flailing. There was just no way that that was going to happen which was awesome. I didn't want an IV anyway. But around the corner comes a student midwife who has been with me through my whole pregnancy. She shadowed a bunch of different midwives and I saw her several times. We actually had a really wonderful conversation. I guess one of the times the baby was breech at the doctor and I told her about my birth trauma and how difficult it was for me and all of the reasons we didn't want another C-section and she just gave me the most trauma-informed care. She just sat and listened to me well beyond the time of the appointment. She made friends with my five-year-old during the appointments. She was just such a light.The midwife came in and she said, “Hi, I'm Barb and I have a student with me today.” I had literally just been screaming at everyone in the room and I said, “Is it Cara?” and it was her. I gave her a big hug. She was like, “It's me!” and it was the most joyful moment of a really, really intense birth. It was 3 and a half hours from start to finish. It was so, so fast. It was a very intense, honestly scary time but seeing Cara was just like, “Okay. You are a safe person for me right now.” It felt like, “I know that you know how badly I want this and I know that you are going to do everything in your power to help me get it and why this is important to our family.” It was just like, “Okay.”But I still didn't calm down. I was not calm. None of it was a calm experience at all. There was just no time to emotionally switch from sitting in my bed watching New Girl to I'm at a hospital having a baby. It was just so quick that I couldn't wrap my head around the change in my life situation. They checked me and it was Cara who checked me, the student midwife. She said, “Well, you're an 8.5.” I was like, “Okay.” My husband was like, “What? I was not supposed to come to the hospital,” and then he was like, “Oh my gosh. Thank God I came to the hospital. I'm so glad I'm not delivering a baby on our toilet right now.” That was not what he wanted at all. She said, “You can start pushing though.” No one ever told me that I was 10 which I thought was interesting. She basically said, “If you're feeling pushy, you can push.” I was like, “I just want this baby out of me because I want this to be over. I'm very much done with this process.” So they took me to an L&D room and tried to switch me from a triage bed to the regular bed and I truly was in so much pain with no breaks in the contractions that I was like, “No. I can't even get on the bed.” They were like, “Trust me. You don't want to be on the triage bed to deliver a baby. Try to get over there.” Every movement that I made felt so challenging and so painful. They asked if I wanted to– I went on my hands and knees and they were like, “Is that comfortable?” I was like, “Do I look comfortable?” It was just the most erroneous question. I was like, “What part of me screaming makes you think that anything about this is comfortable right now?” Of course, it was too late to get an epidural, so when they tell me that it was basically time to push, I was like, “I don't want that. I just want to take a nap. I just want an epidural.” When she said 8, I was like, “Oh no. I have to do this. I have to be here and I have to do this.” Obviously, in retrospect, I'm very glad that it was too late and that I did it, but it was truly just so, so intense. Again, just how quickly it happened just did not allow time for me to even understand what was happening. But I started pushing when we got in L&D and the midwife who was very old school, I'm not going to guess her age but she's older, got in my face. I'm an Alabama football fan, so I kept saying that I needed someone to Nick Saban me in labor. I needed, “All right, Abby. Here's the deal. See you at the finish line.” I had never met her before. She totally got in my face and Nick Saban'd me. She said, “Abby.” I said, “I just want the baby out. I just want this to be over. I just want to get the baby out.” She was like, “We can get the baby out. You can get the baby out, but you have to stop screaming. You're letting all of your power out of the top of your body by screaming. You have to channel that. Take a deep breath and push down.” I just felt totally incapable of that, but I was again, so over it that I just was like, “Okay. I guess I'm just going to do whatever this random lady says.” I started pushing and less than 30 minutes later, my son was born. I was at the hospital for 48 minutes before he was born. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Abby: Truly like a movie. It was just the fastest thing I've ever experienced. It was really scary and apparently, it was also really scary for him because he came out not breathing. Meagan: Fast transition. Abby: Yes. It was so fast. Everything was so fast. It's officially precipitous labor, the timeframe that I experienced. He was just totally unresponsive. My doula said that she saw his chest rising and falling when they took him away, but you want the pull the baby up on your chest experience. I was so shocked when I pushed him out. Pushing was so hard. It was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life and they told me that I could see his head. I touched his head and I was like, “Oh my gosh, there is a baby coming out of my vagina. I can't believe that this is happening.” But the endorphins that you sort of expect to follow didn't really happen because we were panicking. My husband and I were like, bawling and praying out loud and just were so nervous that the baby was not going to be okay. My doula said that it was less than three minutes, but of course, it felt like an eternity. It was terrible. There were eight people around him on the table and oxygen. It was just a very medical experience. Again, I've had a lot of weird birth things and when I first envisioned being a mom, I envisioned a home birth really. All of my births have had reasons that they needed to be at a hospital. With Ginnie, praise the Lord that I was on an operating table when I threw a pulmonary embolism and that there was a cardiac anesthesiologist that knew. Honestly, had I had a vaginal birth with Ginnie, that pulmonary embolism would have flowed up into my lungs walking around my culdesac on a Tuesday and I wouldn't be here. That's just not the kind of thing that you can come back from. They are literally called the silent killer for that reason. It's hard to admit that the way that I wanted things to happen was not the way that they happened, but I am so thankful for all of the medical people and all of the things that happened the way they happened because my children are safe and I'm safe. That doesn't make things any less traumatizing if you've experienced trauma, but it's just really overwhelming to think about how things could have happened had I been more stubborn or insistent on a home birth this time or whatever. So I think my biggest shift obviously once the baby was okay and everything, I had a second-degree tear which was no big deal. She stitched me up. That took forever. I was kind of over it by that point. By the time she was done and they had handed him to me and everything was fine, people had cleared out of the room, I had to go to the bathroom. I had so much water during labor. I have a big Stanley cup and I just kept asking my husband to give me water in between every single contraction. I was like, “Water, water, water.” It was the only thing I said for an hour. I was like, “I really have to go to the bathroom” and the nurse just looked at me and was like, “Okay. It's over there.” I was like, “I can go to the bathroom? I can just stand up and go to the bathroom?” And I did. She was like, “I can help you.” She wasn't trying to be rude or anything. She was like, “Okay, yeah. We can totally go.” I was like, “No, I think I can go to the bathroom.” Totally unmedicated. I had no IVs. The continuous fetal monitoring did happen, but it was someone just holding. They didn't even have time to put anything on me. They just held it down at the bottom of my belly. I was pretty unencumbered and by the time I was done, I could just get up and go to the bathroom. I took a shower in the postpartum room the next day and everything was just like night and day. I have already taken walks with my family. I took the baby out of the house yesterday by myself. I carried his car seat by myself. The recovery is, my birth was not a dream birth. It was terrifying and I'm glad it's over. I'm glad I did it. It's amazing and empowering, so don't hear me saying that it wasn't amazing, but the postpartum experience is what has solidified for me that it was worth every second because for three and a half intense hours, I don't have to have four-plus really terrible weeks trying to recover from a major abdominal surgery, so it was worth every very, very intense second. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Abby: I know, I'm sorry. Meagan: Well congratulations. Abby: Thank you. It's a very long story. Meagan: Congratulations. It's okay. I love it. I love it so much. I appreciate your sharing. I could just feel the intensity. Abby: Oh, it was intense. Meagan: I'm sure for everybody it was just like, “Ahh!” So much was happening and those precipitous births, just recently recording, I think it was last week's episode was accidentally at home. Sometimes there are these babies that just come and they are ready to go. I really appreciate you sharing your story. Abby: I'm so glad. I'm so glad. It was really such a joy and overwhelming to be here. Honestly, thank you. I feel like what you do is just such a service to women. When you have a C-section, you might think that your body is incapable or not able to do what you thought it might be able to do and it's really disempowering to feel that way. So to hear these stories is such a gift. I just ate them up like candy. I listened to The VBAC Link on the day that I went into labor and I was going on a walk before I went to the chiropractor. It just gave me the power to say, “I think I really can do this.” And I did. So thank you for what you do. Meagan: And now, you're one of those stories. Abby: I'm one of those stories.Meagan: Before we go, I just wanted to share with everybody if you guys want to go find Abby on social media, again, she's not actively doula-ing right now, but I can see it in the future. Abby: Definitely. Meagan: She's at @AbbyKraftMac which I absolutely love.Abby: Yes. Kraft with a K. Meagan: Yep. Kraft with a K or abbykraftmac.com. We'll make sure to be tagging you today on Instagram and all of the things. So thank you again so much for being here. Abby: Thank you, friend. I'm so thankful. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all thing

Have you ever wondered if you're spending too much time on your phone or computer? Well, then you're certainly not alone. Screen use behaviors are top of mind for so many people these days - and for good reason. Over the last few years, our world has fully transformed itself around this technology to a point where spending a majority of our day looking at a screen has become the norm in much of our society. And although screen overuse was a problem pre-pandemic, the issue has accelerated exponentially over the last few years, bringing with it an array of crisis-level challenges for so many people. So what can we do to achieve screen time sanity in today's digital world? To help answer this question, I reached out to Dr. Clifford Sussman, a renowned child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Washington, DC area, who supports kids and their families who are at the extreme end of struggling with finding balance in their screen use - and I say balance because, well let's face it... screens are an avoidable part of life in today's world and its future. As a remote-working parent with a tween who loves video games and a teen who loves her phone, I find it very challenging to find a healthy balance, not feel like a hypocrite, and just feel OKAY about my own screen use decisions. However, I learned from my conversation with Dr. Sussman that there are practical things we can all do to find that balance for ourselves and those in our lives we care about. Listen in to our conversation and learn some practical strategies you can use to achieve screen time sanity and find your own balance in our modern digital world.Here are some links to more information about Dr. Sussman and this episode's topic.Learn More About Dr. SussmanDr. Sussman's Website on TrainingsThe Ross Center - Assessment and Treatment of Digital Use DisordersDr. Sussman's YouTube ChannelThe Ross CenterScreen Use & Executive Function SkillsBeyond BookSmart's collaboration with Dr. SussmanScreenagers by Delaney RustonContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:00Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:00Okay, confession time. Are you listening to me but also looking at something on your phone? It's okay if you are, we can't help it. Instagram, tick tock games, even news websites are created in ways that make you want it. Need it, even when you're doing something else. Our screen use behaviors are top of mind for many people these days. Before the pandemic, it was a problem. Now, for some it's a crisis. Hannah Choi 00:00I reached out to Dr. Clifford Sussman, a child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Washington, DC area, who supports kids and their families who are at the extreme end of struggling with finding balance and their screen use. And notice I said balance. What I learned from Dr. Susman is that balance is the key screens are a part of life, they're not going anywhere. We all know that they have many, many benefits. And when used in a healthy way, we can learn some pretty great skills that apply to other areas of our lives. As a parent of a tween who loves video games, and a teen who loves her phone. And as someone who works remotely from home on a computer for much of the day, married to a partner who also works remotely from home and is literally on a computer all day, I find it very challenging to find a healthy balance and not feel like a hypocrite and just feel okay about my own screen use decisions. I learned from Dr. Sussman that there are practical things that we can do to find that balance for ourselves, and connect with our kids to help them find it. And notice that I didn't say they're easy things we can do. It's definitely not easy. But there is some hope in there that with some focused and thoughtful effort, we can hopefully find that balance and feel better about our own screen use. And if we have kids, there's too. Okay, onto the show. Hannah Choi 00:00Hi, Cliff. Thanks so much for joining me on my podcast.Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:17Thanks for having me.Hannah Choi 02:18Um, would you like to introduce yourselves to our listeners?Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:21Sure, sure. My name is Dr. Clifford Sussman. I'm a child and adolescent psychiatrist. And I actually specialize in treating internet and video game use disorders. So all of my patients pretty much have some form of problems with excessive screen use.Hannah Choi 02:42Yeah, and that is a hot topic, especially after coming out of that, after having gone through the pandemic and even before, so how did you? How did you get into that? Why is that? How did it become such an important issue for you?Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:57Well, I guess it started, or, you know, early in childhood, discovering I love computers, myself, and I love screens myself. And I was I was always on video games when I was younger, or trying to design them myself. And then eventually learned to code and, and, you know, got really into all that stuff. And then when I became a psychiatrist, and went into private practice, specializing in mostly teenagers, parents were coming in from the day I started about 15 years ago, and telling me that their kids were addicted to video games. So this is long before the pandemic. And I would evaluate these kids because oftentimes, the parents had been that had been dismissed by by the providers they'd seen before me. And so but I would evaluate these kids and I find out that, you know, look, they, they, they have a lot of the same problems that the people I'm seeing, that I saw in my addiction rotations during residency had, you know, the seeking the, the constantly lying, the stealing, the aggression, the defensiveness, the, you know, all sorts of problems with, with, with, with the family, in the family. So, I decided to really do some research, you know, just do a lot of read a lot of studies about how the brain was affected by excessive screen use and comparing those studies to how the brain was accessed was affected by use of other substances. And, you know, started finding a lot of similarities. And eventually I decided that this problem was becoming so big and these people really needed help. That I just I decided that I really could just just work on that. And yeah, and so that there was a lot more demand than supply and providers for this problem and So, you know, and I would collaborate with a few other colleagues who are recognizing this too. You know, when we compare notes on how, you know, what was working and what wasn't. And I would base a lot of my treatments on treatments that had been effective for drug addiction, such as motivational interviewing, motivational interviewing, which is a type of psychotherapy, that's like a mix of cognitive behavioral therapy, and psychodynamic psychotherapy. And, you know, and it just sort of took off from there. And then, after the pandemic, the problem got to be so huge, even during the pandemic, but especially when people started returning to schools and having more demands placed on them. That, you know, I decided that there was no way that I could handle all the cases, you know, and my and a few of my colleagues who are who are recognizing this. And so, I decided to start putting a lot of focus and doing things like this, where I can educate the community, and I even have a lot of stuff now, where I'm training other providers, a lot of doing courses for other providers online, and things like that.Hannah Choi 06:16That's great. I would love to talk with you more about that later on. I do have a question for you about the brain. You mentioned the brain, what? What happens in the brain? And I know that there's dopamine involved, but maybe for our listeners, you can explain what happens in the brain when, you know, when someone really feels like they need to be on a screen.Dr. Cliff Sussman 06:43Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean, that that is it is related to dopamine. And so So dopamine is the neurotransmitter that we release, it's thought of as the pleasure neurotransmitter. So people think we just release it when we get pleasure. But it's a little more nuanced than that we release dopamine when we get exactly what we want, when we want. So I think people people think of if you got pleasure, but it was very delayed, you know, you wouldn't release as much dopamine as if you got the same pleasure right away. So that's why things like cigarettes, which don't get you nearly as high as other drugs, but get you that buzz right away, because you smoke it, and the smoke goes right into your bloodstream, they release a lot of dopamine, and our, you know, easily as addictive as much more intoxicating drugs that have more delayed. So, you know, it was a real survival, a real survival neurotransmitter. Because, you know, when you're, let's say, a caveman, you, you need something right away, it helps you survive if you get it right away. Right, right, you know, so you know, you want to satisfy those needs immediately. Before you get eaten by a saber toothed Tiger.Hannah Choi 08:14We don't want that to happen.Dr. Cliff Sussman 08:16So yeah, so what happens in the brain when, when, when we're on anything that gives us instant gratification. And in particular screens, because that gives us not just instant gratification, but continuous instant gratification, is it the brain releases lots of dopamine. And you know, there's nothing wrong with that, what's the problem is when you keep doing it, and when the brain keeps releasing dopamine for hours and hours on end, right, like cavemen never got what they wanted for that long at a time. I mean, so the brain wasn't designed to handle that much of getting what you want for that long time. And so what happens is you become desensitized to dopamine, the receptors in the brain for dopamine, they, they go through a process called downregulation. And that and a bunch of other more complicated processes, basically result in you needing to work even harder to get instant gratification. And, and getting the same amount of dopamine that you did before won't feel as good. So you need even more. And so that's why that's one of the reasons why it's just so hard to get off screen. When you've been on it for a really long time. You know, when when you get off and stop getting that dopamine. Now you you actually feel worse than before you start.Hannah Choi 09:43Right. So you want to get back on to avoid that feeling.Dr. Cliff Sussman 09:49 Yeah, and that's really basically the process in all addictions.Hannah Choi 09:52Yeah, right, right. Yeah.Dr. Cliff Sussman 09:54So it's like it's like too much of a good thing. You know, I don't and I like it. said I enjoy gaming, you know, so I don't I don't think that that using a video game for a half an hour or an hour is such a terrible thing. I think it can be a great experience. And there's lots of even educational opportunities or, you know, opportunities to solve puzzles are make friends or do all sorts of great things, right? Yeah. But it's the hours and hours and hours on end. And when people during the pandemic, we're living in the virtual world instead of the real world, it really got to be a big problem.Hannah Choi 10:31Yeah, right. So I had a personal experience with this. A couple of weeks ago, my son and I both had COVID at the same time, so he and I were all like, we're Yeah, it was, yeah, it was not fun. And, and so we were both isolated, we're both the same room, and I had work I had to do, and he did not feel great. So I let him use his, like, play Minecraft and do screens like, kind of all day. And I, I felt so guilty because I know!Dr. Cliff Sussman 11:03And that was the first time you'd done that? Because most parents I've worked with have found that out, have crossed that a long time ago, you knowHannah Choi 11:11Yeah, I mean, I guess I had done it. But it hadn't been in a while. And it hadn't been for so many days. And I did notice afterwards, he had a hard time, like thinking of something else to do. And, and I didn't feel great. So I had a hard time motivating myself to encourage him to do something different. So I can see how...Dr. Cliff Sussman 11:36Everything else starts to pale in comparison. Yeah, you know, it can turn an, you know, I like to divide activities into what I call high dopamine activities. I use HDA for short and long dopamine activities, or LDA. And I call you know, the, there's a lot of low dopamine activities that are enjoyable, meaning activities that just require more patience that have more delay in their gratification, but they're still gratifying. Right? So you know, so we're not just talking about homework and exercise, we're also talking about things like putting together a jigsaw puzzle, you know, painting a picture, learning to play an instrument. These things, you know, those are the types of things that your son might really enjoy doing, until they've, you know, gotten a taste of a high dopamine activity for a very long time. You know, and then all of a sudden, those other things, just, you know, well, the thing you heard all the time during the pandemic was I'm bored. There's nothing to do.Hannah Choi 12:39Yeah, there's nothing right. Yeah, yeah. It's funny that you say play an instrument. So my son plays piano, and I, I'm thinking about it, like I did notice when we came out of isolation, and we were back in the real world, it was harder for him to like, sit down and play the piano, but I am noticing over the past few days, he's, he's kind of getting back into it now. So that's not permanent.Dr. Cliff Sussman 13:04And you don't want to forget that. I played the piano when I was a kid for a couple years. And I think I said to my mom, you know, look, for my seventh birthday, can I just quit piano because the processing is really boring, and I don't want to have to learn all the skills. And she's like, okay, you know, and, and then a couple years later, I guess when I became a teenager, I was like, I really wish I knew how to play an instrument. Mom, why did you let me I took up guitar instead. Okay, so that's good. But yeah, it's important when kids get bored with their instruments, not to like, Forget everything they know, and just come away from it to try and just pick it up every now and then keep it a little fresh.Hannah Choi 13:48Right, right. So that makes me think of like, how can this might be jumping ahead a little bit, but how can people balance? How can people find a nice balance between those LDAs and HDA active, activities?Dr. Cliff Sussman 14:04Well, you're hitting the nail on the head. I mean, to me, that's the real key is finding a balance, right? Because you're definitely let's face it in this world, you're not going to have abstinence from the digital world. You know, and it's impossible. Yeah. And and, you know, you wouldn't function very well if you did, to be honest. So it really is about finding balance. And so I have a lot of suggestions for how to do that on my website that you were referring to earlier at CliffordSussmanmd.com. But I can try to highlight some of the main ones. So I think the some of the biggest keys are having a lot of structure in your schedule. You know, having and keeping a schedule, you know, keeping a routine that was so important during the pandemic, when you know, prior to the pandemic, a big ratio of my patients were first year college dropouts, because they went from the highly structured setting of high school to the unstructured setting of college. And so that allows for hours and hours of binging. Well, during the pandemic, it basically like every high school kid became a college kid, because they were at home with like, very little structure. And so, you know, so structure is really key to balance. Having something to do at a certain time until a certain time, you know, getting your kids involved in daily repeating activities, like sports, or music, or joining a chorus or something like that Robotics Club. So that's important. I would also say that setting some some time limits, consistent time limits to how long you can be on a screen, but also, how long you need to be off a screen or at least doing a low dopamine activity, if it is on a screen until you can get on again, it's really important for balance. But the number one thing is, as I already alluded to, is not binging you know, so. So if you're, if you're keeping each screen block to a consistent length of time, that's, let's say, an hour or less, depending on the age of the child, and waiting at least that amount of time before you get on again, you know, especially during unstructured time, then then I think you're going to be way ahead of the game for most families. And that's how I'd answer that.Hannah Choi 16:47Yeah, those are really great suggestions. And, and I like that there is so much balance built into all of those suggestions. So it really does show that that is the key. So it's something that we had talked about earlier, and I had never I had never thought about this before. But you, you talked about how people use the word addiction, like screen addiction, casually, like "Oh, I'm so addicted to my screen". But that's not technically true. Right? Can you explain to the listeners, what the difference is between addiction and what you said was functional dependence?Dr. Cliff Sussman 17:25Yeah, well, so. So what addiction really means is that you're you can't get off of something, despite the problems it's causing for you. So it's, it's the inability to control an activity. Combined with it having causing dysfunction in your life. And the level of addiction is measured by not how many hours you're on a screen, or how much of a drug you're taking, but how much it's negatively affecting your life. So, and I do think people think of addiction as kind of an all or nothing thing, but it really is, to me, it's more of a continuum, like you can be really addicted to something. If you're you've like dropped out of school, and you still earn 1000s of dollars, and you know, your life is completely in shambles. Or you can be a little addicted to something if you know, dropped your grades from an A to a B minus, you know, so. But I mean, I think kids generally when they say this game is so addictive, what they mean is that they can't stop playing. And so they're not completely wrong, you know, because it is designed that way to make it so they can't stop playing. As far as like, being dependent on something that just means you know what it sounds like, like you need it, like you can't function without it. And so, you know, you can be the you can be dependent on something without being addicted to it if you still can manage your life and live a good life that's successful, where you're getting what you need out of it. And so, yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, think of a diabetic dependent on insulin, right? I mean, they can't live without it. But that doesn't mean that it's dysfunctional to take right, you know, and so a lot of us really need our screens. We need them like right now we're on screens, you know, that that doesn't make us addicted, right. We're using it in a functional way now. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's, does that answer your question?Hannah Choi 19:36Yeah. Yeah, it does. And what you just said reminds me of going back to when my son and I were isolating together in during the time of COVID I was on my I felt guilty because I was on my screen. So I felt a little bit like I was being, you know, hypocritical, because I was saying, like, you need to get off and here I am, you know, typing away on my screen. And, but I didn't want to be on, I had to be on there.Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:04You were doing low dopamine screen actors,Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:06Yeah, it was very low-dopamine!Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:08You were setting a good example. But what I do see a lot of parents doing is, you know, they're on a cell phone, let's say, going down all these rabbit holes of social media, you know, saying to their kid to get off a video game that doesn't play very, you know, and there's definitely a lot of parents I work with who are who are sort of like, struggling themselves to get off their screens. And, you know, so and let's face it, like with all drug use, and all substances, with all behavioral addictions, like it runs in families, right, it's, there's a genetic component. So yeah, and by the way, you you mentioned this, this episode of, of you and your son being sick. And, you know, one of the problems with that is that you're trapped in the house, you know, you can't like go outside to do low dopamine activities, where there's probably a lot more dopamine activities, you know, so, but that also is a reason I emphasize, because people had to stay injuring COVID, you know, during for quarantine purposes, as well. So, I emphasized a lot of environmental cues, like being aware of environmental cues as as a big part of achieving balance. So if you're, if an alcoholic is avoids going in the bar, it's much harder, it's much easier to avoid having a drink, right? It's much harder when you're in the bar. Because you have all the cues of the bar, you have the sights, sounds and smells, you know, the, you see a row of bottles, you see the bartender, it's like, it's very hard to drink water in a bar. And so, so what I try to help parents do, and this is kind of a extended answer to your question about how to, you know, how do you get balance, because I try to help them have like low dopamine and high dopamine zones in the house. So you start to associate cues of like what activity you should be doing. So in other words, when we were, you know, before COVID, and since since the quarantines ended, when kids do their learning, they're in a classroom, right. And so they're sitting at a desk, they've got a teacher, they got a whiteboard, they've got hopefully other kids around, like, maybe some of them at least paying attention to the teacher. And, you know, so they've got the cues around them that, hey, it's time to learn, you know, but when they were, when they were taking class during COVID, they were on the same screen, they were playing Minecraft on all day. And usually, they had another screen open with Discord on it. So like, good luck, you know, that that's really trying to drink water in a bar. So that's why I emphasize a lot, like look at what your home looks like, you know, do you have a separate area for where they do their gaming? And for where they do their studying? You know, and they're sleeping, you know, are they just do they have a cell phone and three other devices next to their bed all the time or next to where they're doing their work? Because if so, good luck, you know, they're getting the wrong cues. You know, so I tried to emphasize having a zone in the house put aside kind of like an arcade room, where, when it's time for kids to have their high dopamine activities, they can go into that sort of arcade room. And, you know, all the devices will be in there. But the catch is that when that hour or whatever is up, maybe half an hour, if they're a little kid, the devices stay in there, and they leave. And they go back into the low dopamine zone. Yeah, a little zone, because so, so that way, you know what, what happens is, you don't have to rip a device out of the kid's hand, you just have to get them to go from one location to another.Hannah Choi 24:02Right, right. Yeah. And so then if it like, say, you don't have a separate place, could you just say, like, you always have to sit? Like if you're going to be using your game, your whatever, you have to sit at this table or something?Dr. Cliff Sussman 24:16Yeah. Although although usually if it's a teenager and you say you have to do something, they'll do the opposite. So yeah. You know, kind of work on how you how you discuss it with them, but that could be the rules that you agree on, you know, and, and, you know, and if you make rules like that, you can also clarify what the sort of natural or logical consequence of breaking those rules are, because they're going to, you know, so Right. Yeah. So like if for example, if they stay in the in the high dopamine room for longer than they're supposed to, you could agree on something like okay, you were in there five minutes too long. So you lose three times five, which is 15 minutes off the next lock in there. You And then you don't need a power struggle, you know? Yeah. Right. You can even reward them for getting off on their own in time. Just not with extra screen time. Yeah.Hannah Choi 25:10Yeah, you get half an hour more.Dr. Cliff Sussman 25:14Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I that's a system that's worked for a lot of my parents.Hannah Choi 25:19And do would you say, in general, kids are open to talking with their parents about their screen use and in screen use behavior? And, and kind of discussing what it's like for them?Dr. Cliff Sussman 25:35Well, it depends on the kid, you know, and it depends on their age. And, you know, I mean, for so so that's a complicated question. You know, if you have a kid who's like really addicted to screens and kids, and really struggling with it, they may be in denial, which and so they may be get very defensive when parents tried to talk to them about it. But then at the same time, there's, there's like, it's a normal teenage thing to not want to discuss everything with your parents, and not necessarily want to share all your feelings with them, especially when you're in that early teenage, those early teenage years, like 12-13, because you're trying to like, sort out your, your identity among your peers, and you're trying to sort of push a cast aside the previous generation and join your peers. So, you know, so So I don't think parents should take it too, personally, if their kids don't want to talk about it. But you know, kids do like when their parents care about what they're interested in, you know, and if you, you know, can validate that they really enjoy their games, and that they really enjoy their computer and that they're not, you know, that, that it can be really tough for them to stop. You know, what you don't want to do as a parent and see, like I just, you know, you don't want to say to your kid, like, like that, you know, I don't understand why that's fun for you. That's, you know, that's not important. You shouldn't be doing because to them, it's very important. You know, it's, it's, you know, it's, it may be how they're socializing. It may be how, I mean, they may care a lot about how a lot more about how well they do in a video game than other things. And, you know, you may not agree with that, but you got to meet them where they are good luck reaching them,Hannah Choi 27:24you know, yeah, yeah, you can't reach them unless you validate them.Dr. Cliff Sussman 27:27Yeah. And validating a behavior is not the same as enabling it. You know, I think that's important for parents, just because you're acknowledging that a kid loves their video game, or that they're really upset about having to stop playing it. You know, rather than pretending they're not upset, you know, that that's not the same thing as saying, Oh, you can have all the games you want, you know?Hannah Choi 27:50Yeah, that's such an important point to remember.Dr. Cliff Sussman 27:55You can set limits, but then validate how, you know, the effect it's having on them, trying to abide by those limits.Hannah Choi 28:02Right. And then also, I imagine sharing your own experience with having challenges regulating your own screen use. And, you know, sharing Yeah, like, I get that, because I feel that way about whatever. And so. So for parents, those, those cues for the kids can also be the parents behavior, and just being a good role model. Right?Dr. Cliff Sussman 28:31Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, kids are much more likely to do what we do than what we say. So, you know, I think the most effective way to really influence our kids being self regulated and balanced is to be that way ourselves and to work on that ourselves as parents and actually model that behavior. You know, and maybe even like, let let your child know, look, I you know, I set a timer, and I stopped when the timer went off, and it wasn't easy for me to do I want to keep doing it, but I have to get back to work, you know. So, you know, your, your basic your being a good influence on that type of behavior.Hannah Choi 29:14Yeah. Just thinking about my own house and how, how we do things. Yeah. And it's hard. I mean, it's it's really hard. You're right, they do. They the the makers of all these things, every website, every every social media app, every game, they make it so you want it. You want it bad, it's hard. Yeah, yeah. If you're just reading the news, you just pull down and then you got a whole new news article to read.Dr. Cliff Sussman 29:42Yeah, well, there's endless scrolling. It's all you know, it's all sort of designed and coded the way they know we'll get people to stay on the longest. So you know, and even they even have AI that does that. So, and you know, and they understand like the basic psychological concepts concepts of things like gambling, that, you know, if you, if you give people a different reward every time, and sometimes no reward at all. It's the whatever, whatever it is, they're going to do a lot more of than if you just reward them the same way each time. So that's called variable ratio reinforcement. And that's why, you know, when you're scrolling down, you know, sometimes it's like, for example, you may think, Okay, well, this AI isn't very good, because they keep showing me things in my feed that I'm not interested in at all right. And occasionally, I'll like one, and I'll click on it, you know, or occasionally, I'll find something that's interesting, you know, but I have to keep scrolling and scrolling until I actually find something. Well, guess what, that's what they want. They don't want you to like everything. I mean, for one thing, they can't get any information about you, if you like everything, but for another thing, you know, that it's not as addictive if you like everything. You know, it's actually more addictive, if you're disappointed sometimes. And if there's like, maybe I'll like the next one better, right? That's why you see people in the casinos just pulling those levers over and over again, on the slot machine.Hannah Choi 31:11Yeah, right, that same action. Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:14Like mice. Hannah Choi 31:17We're all just a bunch of mice. Don't those don't the makers of like the people that that apply that psychology? Don't they have some? Gosh, some guilt or something like, oh, they have to be, uhhh, I don't get it.Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:33Ethics and money don't always go together? But, you knowHannah Choi 31:35No, no.Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:36I mean, that's the world we're in. You know, I mean, I have very little control over the tech industry, I have a lot more say, I think and you know, what messages I can send to parents and kids about the way to cope with this type of, you know, just how to play the cards were dealt the best, you know, how to really, you know, maybe that was a bad analogy.Hannah Choi 32:02Bringing us back to gambling!Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:03Yeah, bringing us back to gambling. But yeah, I mean, just how to how to deal with this challenge that we're always faced with, you know, I mean, there's always, there's always struggles and challenges for humans to survive. And this is the one we have right now.Hannah Choi 32:19This is the one we have right now. Yeah, yep. Yeah. No more saber toothed tigers. That's good.Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:26Yeah, that's right. I mean, yeah, I guess we're doing a little better.Hannah Choi 32:32So what do you like, what about, are there any trends or things? You know, speaking of now that it's just it is just part of life? Is there anything that's really important for people to know about? About this? Like, is there any additional message that you would like to share with our listeners?Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:53Well, um, a lot of parents asked me about parental control software. I, again, I think if you have the boundaries, clear on things like, you know, low dopamine and high dopamine areas, you don't need as much of that, you know, I like direct parental engagement, I think that's a good healthy thing. And I think sometimes parents rely too much on computers to do it for them. And so like parental control software, and things like that. So it goes beyond just the fact that kids can hack around it, that I that I, you know, tell parents to not completely rely on parental control software, that it's important to have clear rules laid out and consequences and to be able to interact with your kids concerning those consequences. Without having major power struggles and being able to really, again, try to meet them where they are, but also, you know, set some limits. And, you know, and find a balance as a parent between setting limits, and allowing your kids to self regulate, and, and not to micromanage them too much, and let them learn from their own natural consequences.Hannah Choi 34:14Yeah, and if you don't provide them the opportunities to do that, when they do go off to college, or go move out of the house and move on to their own, then they're not going to have any experience to draw from, or resources to draw from. Exactly. Yeah. And it is difficult because there are so many resources out there and a lot of parents not resources, but a lot of those parental control apps or programs. And also, they may be their friends or using them to feel like oh, like maybe I should use this. You're my kid and it's harder to just like rely on your own your Yeah, relationship with your child.Dr. Cliff Sussman 35:02And, and, and even if other parents are using them. They may be, like, we don't know exactly how they're using them, ya know. So if even if you get the software, you know, it's, and you find that it helps for some things you don't want, it's just that you don't want to depend on it too much, you know, you don't want to over rely on it. Like, for example, I think that like screen time, the screen time app on iPhones, for example, is a good way to just track what your kids are doing online. Like it tells you what apps they're on, but it also tells you how much time they were on their phone. Yeah. You know, to some extent, and, you know, sometimes it can, it can misread things, but but the point is that it's a good way to just have feedback on what your kids are doing. But it's not doing the policing for you. It's not, like cutting them off, it's just giving you the information, it's just giving you the information. So it helps you monitor as the parent. And that's pretty useful. You know, if you don't want to be looking over their shoulder all the time, but at the same time, I think sometimes it's good to like actually go in the room where they're studying.Hannah Choi 35:14Yeah, whatcha doing? Yeah.Dr. Cliff Sussman 36:15I mean, if every time you go in while they're doing homework, they're like minimizing, you know, an app like, you know, something's you know, the homeworks not getting done.Hannah Choi 36:25Yeah, yeah. It's also beneficial for the kid to learn how many hours they're spending on it. I think that we don't realize how quickly time flies while we're on that. I had, I had a client who I had, he had never looked at his he was in college, and he had never looked at his screen time use. And so I just encouraged him to, and oh, my god, I just, my heart broke for him, I'll never in my life forget the way that his face, his jaw just dropped. He had no idea he wouldn't tell me the time.Dr. Cliff Sussman 36:58Yeah, it's called time distortion, you know, track of real world time. And it certainly happens to me when I play video games, which is why I set a timer. You know, it's like surprised by how soon it goes off.Hannah Choi 37:11I am not really I'm not into video games, and I'm not, I'm very much a like practical person when it comes to my phone. Like I'm on it a lot, but it's just because I'm like texting or researching something. But recently, I did look at my time totals, and I realized my Instagram was kind of out of control. Yeah, so I put a time limit on there. And it really has helped. Yeah. But but that's just me. And that's, you know, that's how I am. And I know, like for my son, it's a lot harder. He's and my husband to it's they're just different. They're very different for me with how they use their phones.Dr. Cliff Sussman 37:49Yeah, and social media is a big time suck. But, you know, look, I think that there's two skills that we need to have to be able to have use our devices in a healthy way. Like, we need to be able to delay our gratification, which means we can't be like checking our Instagrams every five minutes, you know, and, and then we need to be able to put on the brakes, like we need to be able to stop when it's time to stop, you know, when the timer does go off, we have to stop and move on. And transition. And those are two skills that we wouldn't really develop at all if we were just abstinent. You know, so it's like, it's actually. So I see screentime as an opportunity to work on those skills, you know, and, and so I'll present it to kids is kind of a challenge for them. You know, you, you know, if, if they were seeing me for cocaine, they I wouldn't be saying to them, Well, you know, you could try to wait before you use your cocaine and stop using in the middle. But you can you actually have that opportunity with screens? Yeah, you know, to work on those skills. And their skills, not just for screening is there. Yeah,Hannah Choi 39:01that's what I was. Right? I was just gonna say that. Yeah. Yep. So how can we, as you know, like me as an executive function coach and protect other practitioners who might not know about handling, screen, excessive screen use or screen addiction? How can we support our clients that might be struggling that with that,Dr. Cliff Sussman 39:28Right, so there is more education out there now on the nature of this problem, and also suggestions for how to how to manage it. So you could, I have a course for example, on the Ross Center website, it's and it provides CE credits for some practitioners. But for others, it's if you're not getting the credits, and you're just taking the course it's less expensive, so and it's a very inexpensive course to begin with so, so you can get the link for that at my website or just go to the Ross Center's website. Yeah, I mean, also, I think that there's, there's a, there's a lot of good resources, I was the technical editor for Overcoming Internet Addiction for Dummies. And I think that book came out nice. That was my colleague, David Greenfield. So, there's a lot of good stuff in there. You know, I think I think clinicians have to just be aware of it and start recognizing it, and they should also know, sort of the red flags to look for. And if they're, if they don't specialize in it, when they see those red flags, they should be able to, you know, maybe refer to somebody who's an expert in that. So just, you know, know, the signs of addiction. And, you know, I'll, of course look for things like kids. You know, mental health professionals know, for example, the screen for suicide, but that you should screen for, you know, is a kid threatening to kill themselves, particularly when the parents are taking the screen away. You know, I like they're there. So there's red flags that are more directly related to screen problems, you know?Hannah Choi 41:21And then I guess a related question would be, how can at what point should parents seek help outside of the, you know, tips and ideas that we've already talked about today?Dr. Cliff Sussman 41:34Well, parents should be aware of some red flags to just like clinicians should and then that, and that's definitely when to go for help. So things like, you know, excessive lying about screen use, stealing money to use screens, and the kids I work with aren't just, like, using their hacking skills to steal their parents credit card information on the computer, they're literally going into the wallets and removing the credit cards, like, That's how desperate they are to get on as fast as possible. There. Yeah. So also things like aggression, when you try to separate the kid from their screen. You know, just a lot of irritability, when they're not on their screen. You know, a lot of a lot of parents, if they can't get help immediately, and they really suspect there's a big problem, they may want to try just having like a, say, a three to seven day screen detox, you know, like, try going on a camping trip, or going on vacation somewhere and just getting your kids disconnected from the internetHannah Choi 42:47With a natural limitation on theDr. Cliff Sussman 42:49Yeah, with a lot of structure in the environment. And, you know, you will see, a lot of parents will see huge changes just from really after, I'd say the second day, they can start seeing kids, like their personalities completely changed. And a lot of those red flags like, seemingly gone, which doesn't mean that your problem is gone, it probably just proves you have the problem that you know, me because as soon as they get their screens back, you know, those those problems will come back. So that's when you have to learn the balance. But starting out with a detox is often a good approach.Hannah Choi 43:29Yeah. And I like how you suggested like, on like going camping or something where so it's not, it's not you as the parent saying, we can't. It's the nature nature is saying you can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners that is?Dr. Cliff Sussman 43:51Well, just emphasize that that, like what you said at the beginning, that there's a lot of more information they can get on my website. So CliffordSussmanmd.com.Hannah Choi 44:06Yeah, you have to check out i'll put the link in the show notes. Cliff's website is just packed full of really, really, like useful actionable tips and ideas. And, and I have to say, looking through it made me feel better about my concerns about my own kids screen use and how that there are a lot of like, really good things that we can do. And there's a lot of support and information out there. Dr. Cliff Sussman 44:39Yeah, we need more though. We're going to and we're going to work on that we're going to work on getting a lot more support for parents struggling with this and, you know, cuz cuz more and more of us are becoming aware of how huge a crisis this is, and we're not ignoring the elephant in the room, you know.Hannah Choi 44:56Right. Yeah, it is time to tackle that elephant and to take control. Great. Well, thank you so much for joining me. It was really interesting. And, and there is some hope in there as you know, as, as we were saying we are really surrounded by it. And it is really difficult to, yeah, like you said, you can't practice abstinence. It's just not possible. But there are a lot of really great strategies that and also opportunities to learn and opportunities to connect with your kids, which are never not a good use of your time. Yeah, that's right. Great. All right. Well, thanks again for joining me. And, yes, listeners, please check out the show notes because you'll, you'll just be really glad to see all this information there. All right. Okay. Thanks. Dr. Cliff Sussman 45:48Thank you. Bye, bye.Hannah Choi 45:50And that's our show for today. You can now get back to what you were doing before I so rudely called you out on it. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. You can do whatever you want. And I sure won't judge you for it because I am over here trying to find my own screen use balance. But if you've got the time, be sure to check out those show notes for links to learn more about Dr. Sussman and the excellent work he's doing. If you're a provider of support for people who may be dealing with screen addiction, I recommend taking a look at his training materials. There are some excellent resources in there. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. Help us help others learn about executive function skills. Please share our podcast with your colleagues, your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening.

OUTTA THIS WORLD, 5min., Animation Directed by Brittany Christine An animated sci fi comedy about a human woman, Astria ZonBerg, who longs for something. On a journey with alien Pike to find it, she discovers something else she never knew she was missing. https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3046505/ https://www.instagram.com/brittanychristineofficially/ Get to know the filmmaker on what motivated her to make the film: The Pandemic and being in lockdown! I very much felt the same way my character Astria Zonberg did, in the sense that I had already turned my backyard into a beach complete with a lounge set for tanning, bbq area for cooking, volleyball court, ping pong table, racquetball set, tennis court, & projector screen for outdoor movies, then on the inside of my house I bought a rower machine, elliptical, bike, treadmill, thigh master, free weights, dumbbells, work out bands, a bosu ball, weighted throw balls, a thera gun, vibration plate machine, every board game target had on sale that month etc. I was going bored out of my mind and even started picking up crafts like sewing, knitting, macrame, pottery, candle making, doing puzzles, the list just goes on. It was absolutely hilarious. My old roommate Dakota would laugh at me and join in sometimes when she had a night off from working but to give you an idea, I never finished any of the projects I'd start because I would get so bored of them half way through too! Same with ordering food from the restaurants closest to me, I'd be craving pasta but then once it was delivered took one bite and was like AGH! Nothing satisfies me anymore. Hence the reason it shows Astria eating the buffet, playing golf, playing with cats, (I worked for a couple animal shelters in real life during that time called Hoja Nueva as well as Peru Dog Rescue, but we thought the purring of the kitties would be the quickest, easiest, and most funny to imitate) we really played on that where she is missing planet life even though she has it all on the ship, because I was missing social life even though I had everything I could possibly want to keep me entertained and busy while trapped at home. I have always been a very independent person, and enjoy my own company being the introvert I am, however, during the first yr of Covid I quickly realized activities aren't nearly as much fun to experiment with or experience by myself. I wanted the audience to see & feel that in a funny way, rather than a sad and depressing one. You can sign up for the 7 day free trial at www.wildsound.ca (available on your streaming services and APPS). There is a DAILY film festival to watch, plus a selection of award winning films on the platform. Then it's only $3.99 per month. Subscribe to the podcast: https://twitter.com/wildsoundpod https://www.instagram.com/wildsoundpod/ https://www.facebook.com/wildsoundpod

INTRODUCTION: David Hernandez is the founder of Body By Purpose, creator of the Elite Champion Fitness Academy and host of the podcast, Listen, You're Not Defeated.  He is passionate, inspiring, andmotivated. He believes that each of us was designed to live a life of purpose. He believes in one core component in everything he teaches... providing VALUE. So that men and women can learn the principles needed to achieve a healthy, fit and fulfilling life. His life's mission is to empower OVER 1MILLION people to live a better life, healthy, fit and free! After losing hischildhood best friend to obesity at the age of 21, David promised himself thatno one he loved or cared about was ever going to die of obesity if he couldhelp it.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Super Sickening Health Advice·      Male Self Esteem Issues·      Obesity Concerns·      Emotional Eating·      Our Relationship With Food·      Fitness Industry Tea·      Lagging Indication Of Lab Tests·      The Benefits Of Weight Loss·      The Stress Of Weight On Internal Organs·      The Mental Effect On Exercise  CONNECT WITH DAVID: Website: http://www.DavidHernandez.coWebsite: http://www.EmotionalEatingSupport.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3k6mW3tFacebook: www.facebook.com/davekhernandezTwitter: http://www.twitter.com/davekhernandezInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/davekhernandezLinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davekhernandez/  DIETICIAN RECOMMENDED INFO: https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/weight-management/adult-overweight-obesity/health-riskshttps://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/effects/index.html CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook:   https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: David Hernandez[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Good morning everybody, and welcome to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. So glad to have you with me today. David Hernandez is the founder of Body by Purpose, creator of the Elite Champion Fitness Academy and host of the podcast. Listen, you're not defeated. Join David and I today as we get deep and heavy about obesity, our relationship with food, mental health, self-esteem, and so much more.David [00:01:00] lost a friend to obesity and had a near death experience himself,and so this episode is quite emotional.Please listen and share. Hello everyone and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I love having all of you. I love having sex with all of you. I love doing drugs with all of you, and I love talking about Jesus with all of you. David, how are you? David: I'm doing fantastic. My man's doing, doing a, a great morning here and excited to be here with you.Thanks for having me. De'Vannon: Hells fuck yeah. So y'all, David Hernandez is in Florida. He's the founder of Body By Purpose. He's gonna tell you what that is in just a moment. He's the creator of the Elite Champion Fitness Academy. He's gonna tell you what that is in just a moment. He's a certified personal trainer, a certified nutrition specialist, the member of the International Sports and Science [00:02:00]Association.He's gonna tell me what that is in a moment, cause I'm most curious about it. He's the host of. Of of the podcast called Listen, you're Not Defeated, and he's gonna give us some tea about that too. So I'll walk you, I'll walk you through everything that you gotta tell us. So first, what is Body by Purpose?David: Yeah. Awesome. And look, I believe our body was designed with the specific purpose, and each one of our purposes are unique. And if our body isn't aligned to our purpose, to our desire, to our lifestyle, to the things that we desire to achieve and do in life, well, we may fall short of that because our body is the instrument that takes us there.right? It's what makes us travel to that destination in life. And so I believe that when we align our body to that purpose, we can truly become unstoppable and ultimately able to achieve whatever we desire to achieve. So that was critical with me. I was, I was kind of thinking about what name do I wanna [00:03:00] give?Because I believe that health is bigger than us, right? And if we can include purpose in all that we do, well, then we can make our body achieve that as well. De'Vannon: So is this like a nonprofit? Is it, you know, like your fitness organization? What is it? David: Yeah, it's my company where I run all of my fitness through.But primarily it's also A, a kind of like a, like a motto that I, that I want people to adopt in their own life, so to speak, because it's a message, right? And I think that when we put a message or a meaning to everything that we do, then we can enhance the value of what we're doing. And I believe that our body is a critical tool.It's an instrument that oftentimes we ignore. We're now starting to talk a lot about, a lot about the mind, and we talk a lot about our emotions and we talk a lot about many things, and the body's also talked about, [00:04:00] however, I believe the body is not presented in the correct. I believed oftentimes when we look at the media, when we look at how we should look, there's a specific stigma.There's a specific style. Right now we're getting back into the really, really skinny look, and oftentimes if the look or the body, again, isn't specifically aligned to your purpose, then it doesn't matter what body you have, it's gonna ultimately keep us from achieving our ultimate desires in.De'Vannon: Okay. All right, cool.So what is the Elite Champion Fitness Academy? David: That's the academy that I put together where I utilize to train all my students. So instead of me telling you what to do, I believe in educating you to take control of your own health. So it's a platform that I have. All of the years that I've been in fitness, 15 plus [00:05:00] years, all of the education that I've acquired, I've condensed it to a very specific core component system, so to speak.And in that academy, I put all of the principles that I believe are necessary for one to achieve the ultimate health that they desire in one place. And so that's basically my coaching platform that I put together, and it's what I utilize with all of my students. De'Vannon: Fabulous. Now, what is the International Sports and Science Association?David: That's where I got my certification from. It's a certification education company or a certification company where you can get your nutrition certification, your personal trainer, asso certification and all things related to health basically. De'Vannon: All right. Now they had me atk. I was like, okay,So the podcast, listen, you're not defeated. What is its premise? David: The premise is really to tell [00:06:00] people that doesn't matter what situation that you're in, you're really not defeated. And oftentimes as humans, we have one area or a few areas where we might feel defeated in, and that might be nutrition, that might be in health.I can't release weight. That might be in mindset. I don't know how to take control of certain negative thoughts to get me there. So it's a lifestyle show where we basically cover many areas to ultimately help you live a not defeated life. De'Vannon: Now, when I was researching that on your website it's the verbiage kind of makes it seem like it's geared toward women.Is that still the case or has it expanded to include. David: It's expanded to include everyone, and it's really now to the place of, well, what is your ultimate desire, right? In life, which initially when we started it, it was geared very specifically towards only health. But I realize that in that [00:07:00] health is covering all areas, right?It's not just a physical health, it's also a mental health. It's also emotional health. It's also spiritual health. And health is bigger than us because it does impact everything that we do. So through our development and kind of going episode to episode, we've now been able to diversified and expand it to anyone that wants to basically just live a freedom lifestyle or a lifestyle of freedom.for proper English, De'Vannon: oh, fuck, proper English . One thing, one thing I despise about this country. Is that we don't have like an actual language of our own. That's right. You know, we speak English well, that came from fucking England and fuck the king off with his head. Yeah. . You know, may I think that, I think that Mad Queen might've had a few Few.Hmm. A few, few, few good points there. [00:08:00] I don't know. I just it would be, I just love it that every other, basically every other country has its own fucking language. Yeah. You know, Australia at least has a goddamn accent, you know, and at least they have an accent, you know, over there in the uk, but pretty much every other country, you know, they have and in that their own language and that language really unites them, you know?Yeah. And everything like that. It's like, it's like, it's like when you're on a job, but you learn to speak that occupation's language and it bonds you. Mm-hmm. , you know, David: I feel like, I mean, it's an essence, right? I believe it's, it's an essence that makes up a country and it makes up an identity type. And look, I, I think holding onto that, that conversation there, I think it's the same thing for all language in terms of who we are as people, right?Because when we look at language, it, it's the, it's an essence that, that identifies something or someone, a country. [00:09:00] And I believe that in America, oftentimes we don't have our own unique language, meaning we strive to sometimes be like somebody else, to copy somebody else, right? To, to, to, to live the life that somebody else has.And we sometimes forget about, well, what is our core essence that we can adopt to live our own life and set our own standard, so to speak, in what we want in our life? So I just thought De'Vannon: I'd throw that in. Feel free to throw in anything you want, man. So I love, I love how how deep of a thinker you are. And the reason why I really wanted to have you on my show is that that passion, you, you talk like a preacher, like you have like one of the good preachers, y'all, not one of the rapy ones or one of the molesters , not one of the grif ones.Good one. So you have like that certain fire and intensity and passion and I could tell that you're living, like you're calling [00:10:00] and you even fused that into health and fitness and so Right. Thought it would be a unique take. I could have gotten anybody on here to talk about health and fitness, but I, I was, I was needing that, you know, I was looking for that, that.And so, which you have that spark. And so I'm curious when I Oh, you're welcome. And so when I was read, you know, researching you and everything I saw where you in the beginning of your fitness journey, you would go to the gym and you, you start up like the big muscley guys or whatever like that and mm-hmm.and I read where you were able to extract insight and wisdom and tips that you said that you felt like the personal trainers and things like that either didn't know or they weren't sharing. So I would like you to share with us some sweet ass David: secret. Yeah. Look, it really, what I've learned through I guess, looking at many bodybuilders life is that they've got [00:11:00] two to three things very clear for the.They've given meaning to everything that they're doing in the gym. Like it has a certain value and it has a certain standard of meaning for them. It's what drives them. It's what gets them up. It's what keeps them on diets for months and years on end. It's what keeps them committed to a specific outcome.So much so that even if they don't get it, they live satisfied because they know that the process and the journey has gotten them close to it or to achieving it. Right? And when I look at health, I look at, well, I started asking questions and saying, well, why is it that people don't stick to the journey?Why is it that people fall off? Why is it that they have, they're able to commit to other things, but yet they fall off? When we're talking about health, and I really come back to this piece, they've either not given health the value. That is necessary for them [00:12:00] to continue, or they've put other things at greater value that are overvalued or have greater value than they've put on health.And then the second component is really looking at, well, they haven't given value or they don't find value in themselves. They don't feel that they might be worth it. They feel that they might not be worthy enough. They might feel that they're not deserving of having the health or the life that they desire.So that was a big one. And I said, okay, so if this bodybuilder is living in this way and he's given this meaning to them, that's keeping them stuck, well, why can't we incorporate that to just any average person? To help them in their own health and fitness journey. Right? So that was one. The second, the second thing that I learned, the second sort of secret, right, which is really not a secret, but is their commitment to process, meaning their determination and dedication to the [00:13:00] sport, right?Or to their body or to their life. Because we look at, well, what does it take to get a body so greatly proportioned, so immaculate, right? So precise in a sense that it comes down to a science they're determined to achieve, that they're dedicated to that process. And oftentimes when we're looking at an average person, right, or, or, or a, a person that is on their own journey, sometimes that might be lacking the dedication, the determination, and it help, it doesn't allow them to get to their ultimate goal and destination.Right. And then thirdly, a lot of it was learning how they actually work out some of the methodologies in terms of how they're sculpting the bodies, how they're actually doing certain movement patterns and taking that muscle to failure and making the muscle grow through increasing the blood flow in that body part, right?And [00:14:00] ultimately reducing down to as little body fat as possible. So it, it brought a lot of insight that I was able to incorporate and look at, okay, if I'm not training a bodybuilder, how can I still incorporate some of these principles or some of these things that they do to a average person that is looking to maybe release 20 pounds, 30 pounds, 10 pounds, 50 pounds, a hundred pounds?Right. And it was some, some of the core essences that I believe have really impacted many people in their, in their own journey. De'Vannon: You know what I'm curious about? I don't really think like a male. I identify more with feminine energy, so I think more like a woman on mills dating. Okay. Right. And so I'm curious cuz all of this, everything that you said is like, so like meaningful and deep in terms of physique and stuff like that.So from talking to other guys and within yourself, like what are some of the things that motivate men to go, [00:15:00] you know, to work out, to get, you know, really, really defined bodies? We're gonna talk about like the obesity and everything. Yeah. You know, in just a second. weight loss goals can be different, you know?Absolutely. Going from 300 pounds to one 90 is like a huge deal, but you may not be like chiseled and well defined, but you are in super great shape, especially relative to what you were mm-hmm. . And I know that once you get like a six pack and eight pack, a nine pack or whatever, every guy I know who has that, the, if he gets out of the gym for like a month, that damn thing goes away.Mm-hmm. . And so so whenever, so they don't go more than like a week out of the gym and whenever they travel, they take their asses over the Gold Gym, fitness or whatever, like, like religion. So when I look at a man like that, I think, okay, he's hot. This is like a sexual thing. Mm-hmm. . But the, but from hearing you describe this, and from the way I have [00:16:00] observed other guys, I don't know that it's like a sexual thing.And so I don't, so how, how do men look at, how do y'all look at your own David: body? A lot of it is driven by ego in a sense that because we as men are achievers, right, strivers, we want to be in that place of, of chasing after things, achieving the provider at the home or whatever that might be for you.It really is driven oftentimes by. How can I be the best version of myself or how can I be better than him? Or how can I be better than myself to become better? Or oftentimes it's, I used to be this type of person that kept me in a low self-esteem state that wasn't who I wanted to be, for example. I can really identify to that.Growing up, I was super. [00:17:00] I was given a nickname, skinny. My dad used to call me that he didn't know. He thought it was a good thing for him, but for me, it would affect my self-esteem. It would affect the way I would view myself because I did not like the way I looked. I was excessively for my standard skinny.I would be made fun of because I wasn't able to possibly perform, be good at sports because I was a specific physique type, right? And I always found myself having to prove myself, proving myself that I was able to play football, proving myself that I could become the best athlete, proving myself that I was much more than what my body said.And so that took me into, okay, so how can I change that? I started reading magazines. I started looking at these bodybuilders and these physiques and saying, oh my gosh, who is this? Can I possibly achieve that? Then I look at their back stories, and many of these bodybuilders were the same way. They were skinny.They were very thin, they were bullied, they were made fun of. [00:18:00] And then that drove them to change that. So oftentimes it, it really comes down to each person's unique story, but I believe deep down inside there is something of that nature that is driving them, either growing up excessively skinny, low self-esteem, maybe being bullied, or it can ultimately come down to an ego-based drive that's just like, I wanna be the best.How can I achieve that wall? Let me be intimidating. Let me have these muscles because it's gonna give me a certain look or a certain presence, right? Wherever I go, that when I walk into a room, I can change or capture the environment based on how I look.Okay. No, I can't speak for every male. Right? But that's what oftentimes I've, I, I believe is, is the reasons. De'Vannon: I mean I think you might speak for quite a [00:19:00] lot of them, especially men who, who are more on the masculine side, you know, and you know, cause even like the gay world mm-hmm. , you know, your tops and everything.You know, you, you have your tops, your bottom tops are like, the dudes bottoms are like the girls, you know, for lack of better. Right. References. Even them, they get like this thing about being too thin. Mm-hmm. , you know, for me, I've always been able to keep a weight on, so I've always been like, okay, how can I get this shit offYeah. But I, but I didn't wanna be muscley or nothing like that. I wanted it like a nice, you know, curvy like, you know, womanly physique and stuff like that. And I, I guess it's just, and I guess it's just because I don't think like a guy like it, it was, it, it has been absolutely perplexing to me in my existence.Why somebody who's not overweight. Who's like super skinny has a problem with that. Yeah. You know, [00:20:00] I, you know, hearing you explain it helps me to digest that better, because all my life I'm like, okay, how can I get down to, to being, you know, skinny mm-hmm. , you know, and and then the skinny guys are like, I'm not enough.You know, I want to be more. And, and I'm all like, boy, don't you know, you fine as hell. What do you want? Like, what more do you want? So, and then perspective. Perspective, right? And then the relationships. That I've had, you know, the, the, the, the dude, he's all like, he thinks he's too thin. I'm all like, okay, whatever you need to do.I'm not judging your body, but they have it in their head. So much likes saying like, I can't, I just can't be thin. I need to like, have muscle or whatever. And so I don't know if that's like the xy chromosome primal. If I need to defend myself, I need to be bigger than the other person too. Maybe some of that's getting worked in there.I believe David: so. Yeah. And, and oftentimes it can become a coping mechanism [00:21:00] to something like when we're talking about life experiences, right? We're talking about emotional triggers, emotional pain, trauma, right? Something in experience that causes some type of impact to us emotionally or psychologically will produce a stimulant to search for a coping mechanism.And as humans, we all need them to survive to allow us to release whatever emotional impact we've received by X situation or X circumstance, right? And oftentimes, if it's body dysmorphia, right, which we can kind of label that as as well. I see myself skinny. I see myself skinny, but dude, you're not right.In our head, we create that dysmorphia type where we may never be satisfied or we just see ourselves at something else. And oftentimes when we're chasing after this and we fall into this coping action physique wise, [00:22:00] it can become a trap because again, we're never satisfied. I remember on my body building journey, it didn't matter how big I was.I wanted to be bigger. It didn't matter how good I looked, I wanted to look better. It didn't matter how many compliments I received of, dude, you have a great physique. No, no, no, but this, but that, right? We have a tendency of finding the flaws of not being satisfied, and that ultimately is caused in my belief by finding a coping action in the wrong things or releasing our set circumstances that we're feeling emotionally satisfying them or trying to satisfy them with the wrong things.if that makes sense. Oh, it De'Vannon: makes perfect sense. And that's a huge reason why I do all the work that I do to try to, to get people to understand themselves. Because so often we don't. And we think we do. Yeah. Yeah. So you hear me say all the time, people, why do you think, what do you think? Why do you feel [00:23:00] what you feel?Where do you get that belief and value system from? I love that. Is it valid? I love that. Yeah. I, I went the opposite direction. No matter how thin I got back in the day. It wasn't thin enough. I lost so much weight that I couldn't fit the men's jeans in the store that I would go to. So I had to start wearing wow jeans as I was down like a 26th waistline.And I was like, I need to be thinner, you know? And so so I guess that's like how the girls, that's how we do. And thin enough, the boys, you're not big enough. Oh my God, help us to just figure this shit out, , . David: But look, if we are doing things for the wrong reasons, that can quickly spiral to that. So that's why every time I'm doing a consultation, right, and I'm talking to a potential client, it's why do you wanna release weight?Why do you wanna build muscle? Because if the reason why you're doing it is an incorrect reason, right? Just to give it a, a name, to give it a [00:24:00] category. If it's placed for the wrong reasons or it's placed on the wrong things, that is when things can quickly become destructive. Mm-hmm. . It's why sometimes I even ask myself, right?And now, now we're get, I'm getting hypocritical because this is me and this is how I tend to look at things based on my understanding and knowledge. I become hypercritical about certain things, and it's okay, I wanna have this whole pizza. Why do I wanna have this whole pizza? I wanna have this cake. Why do I wanna have this cake?Right. And it might be, I don't sit there and ask myself this question. It happens here now because of the practice that I've had. But if we can get into a place to, to, like you said, ask ourselves questions. Why is it that I want this? Why is it that I wanna do that? Why do then we can stop and really think, is this really necessary?Is this what I want? Which is why [00:25:00] one of the questions that I teach my students to ask them is, is this choice that I'm, I'm about to do in line with who I wanna be in line with, who I wanna become? Mm-hmm. in line with the life that I desire. If we can practice, like you said, to ask ourselves these questions, I believe that we can really get good at taking control of our impulses, of our reactions, of our emotions, right.That sometimes drive us or lead us to making choices that later we can regret. . Mm-hmm. De'Vannon: you preaching now. Amen. And amen. . So, so you mentioned consultation. So tell, tell us about exactly the, so what, what kind of, so you have clients, are they seeing you in person? Is it virtual? Clearly they're coming because they want to change their physique.So kind of walk us through what that looks like and if people would reach out to you through your website. Like how does a, what exactly are you offering here? David: Yeah. Before, [00:26:00] before Covid, a lot of it was in person and it was very exclusive, right? It was like only a certain type of people. Only certain, certain instances would I take them.And after Covid I realized, look, I, I, I could be impacting more, right? And really the reason why I do everything that I do, it was to be able to help people avoid. Going through what my best friend went through, and we can touch on that story story a little later, but it was to support and to help people.And when this epidemic happened, it was a great opportunity for me to then make that expansion. So now everything is virtual. Everything is now online based, right through the academy, and we've got several different types of formats. We have a one-on-one type coaching, and then we have a group type model.And it's to accommodate people at different levels based on their commitment and also based on their finances. But it's really [00:27:00] just, we make it unique and personal to you because we're that type, right? As humans, we're all unique. We're all different types of people, so no program should ever be the same for.Because we're different, right? We have different desires. We have different lifestyles. And that's really the big key, because I believe if whatever you're doing today doesn't align to your lifestyle, meaning who you are as a person, the type of career you have, the type of of schedule you have, the type of time that you have, the commitment that you have, if it doesn't align to that, at some point or another, you will quit or you will fail, you'll give up, right?Because it just becomes unstable. It's not sustainable. So my approach in every consultation is really getting down to the root and to the desires of each person's life. Why do you wanna do it? What is your motivation? What is the driving force, right? What are the desires? What do you wanna achieve? And then from there, it's really getting to the person's commitment level, [00:28:00] right?So how much time are you willing to invest? What is your life like, right? How can we make this align or come together with your life? Because. If you're, if you're chasing health in a f in a program mindset, meaning I have an exercise program, I have a, a nutrition program, that means it's not necessarily a part of your life.You're just following a specific program. And at some point, if you don't like that program anymore, you are gonna stop doing it. But if I can now introduce health to become a part of your life, now I marry it. I bring it together with your life. It's gonna be a lot easier for you to sustain, and you're more likely to hold onto it.Why? Because now it becomes a part of you, a part of your essence, a part of your d n a, a part of your makeup as a human and as your life. [00:29:00] So that's a very critical component for me. When we're doing consultations and we're, we're working closely with any student because I wanna ensure that. You keep it lifelong.So De'Vannon: then give me an example of the sort of help you would offer. Is it meal plans? Is it workout plans? Is it helping someone see like, like, like, like what, like what, what would it actually David: be? Yeah. Again, it's customized for everyone's need, right? So it would include all those things. If let's say, no, I only need help with the exercise part.Okay, we'll tailor it to that. No, I need help with a lot of things, right? I need help with my nutrition, my, my exercise. And then I'm also battling some type of unhealthy relationship somewhere. That might be with sugar, that might be with, with alcohol, right? That might be with another controlled substance type form.There's all types of. [00:30:00] Of needs, so to speak, and we tailor it to what you are needing from mindset, the psychological side, because a lot of what we do stems from there. A lot of the choices that we're making stem from there. And my object or or my process is I wanna help you identify why you're doing what you're doing.If we can get to the core root of what is driving you to make these food choices of what is driving you to have this relationship with food, this relationship with yourself, this relationship with exercise, it might be non-existent. You might hate doing exercise, but if I can change your relationship to exercise, you're gonna have a different psychological understanding of what that is.Therefore, then you're going to be more likely prone to holding onto it and doing it long term if we can make the relationship healthy and your understanding to that is a healthy understanding. , [00:31:00]right? So we work with emotional people that deal with emotional eating, stress, eating, binge eating, right?Unhealthy, toxic relationships with their body, with themselves, with all sorts of, of, of relationship issues in that format, De'Vannon: as it says in the, in the book of Proverbs, in the, in the, in the Bible. In all, in all that I get and get understanding . That's right. So, that's right. So we're gonna, so we've talked about some of the some of the skinny boy issues.Now we're gonna talk about some of the some of the obesity issues. Mm-hmm. . And before we get into Eric, Eric is his best friend's name and he's gonna tell us Eric's story. And but I, I wanted to read some of the statistics that we had discussed before because I feel like it leads into that. So I'll read this, you can talk about that, then you can tell us about Eric.Cool. And so it says emotional stress eating is something that affects between 83 and 88% of [00:32:00] Americans, and it produces 75, 70 5% of all overeating. A recent article by C N B C revealed that 11 million people die each year due to non-communicable diseases caused by poor eating habits. And I pulled this from David's website.He has two emotional eating support.com, and then David hernandez.co. Of course, all that will go in the show notes. So just speak to us about those statistics and then tell us about Eric. David: Look, these statistics are meant. Not to alienate or not to bring shame or bring judgment to anybody. They're simply to bring awareness to help us recognize that this is a potential threat to many people's lives.And if there's a threat, the threat is to let us know while, let's avoid falling into that, or let's avoid being impacted by that threat. Or if I'm in that threatful situation, right, [00:33:00] being impacted by this, let's do something about it. Let's change because I believe we can do something about everything. If we're still breathing, we can impact it and bring change.Right. And my best friend was one of these individuals. He was part of this sort of of, of group, of people growing up. He was that kid that just. Kind of never fit in. He was husky, he was slow. He wasn't good at sports. He was he w he didn't, he wasn't coordinated, right? So he always felt like this outcast, and I was the opposite.I was skinny athletic, into fitness, into sports, super coordinated. So we had this really unique dynamic of a relationship that I loved him for who he was, but I [00:34:00] ultimately also wanted better for him because he desired it for himself. And so, through the years, we'd work out together, we'd do things together.I'd, I talked to him as much as I could about health because he was overweight and he always battled with being overweight. And his, his, his battle was, I wanna release weight, but I don't know how. I don't know what to do. And that's where I would come in. Right? I'd give him as much as I could at the time to help him.18 years after high school, we split. I moved to Miami to study nutrition and culinary arts, and he stayed in Texas and we kind of lost, we went our separate ways, so to speak. We lost communication for several years, and at the age of 21, I got a phone call, you know, that he had passed away and I couldn't believe it.I said, what happened? How did this happen? So he got so obese and he became so desperate to get the weight off that he went to get a gastric bypass surgery. Two days later, he got an infection [00:35:00]and he died. Right? And that tore me apart because I started blaming myself. I started to feel guilty. I started to.Blame. Why didn't I do more? Why wasn't I there? Why didn't I support him more? Why didn't I help him get that weight off? So after about eight months of this self sabotaging guilt and shame, I finally had to come to a place and realize, well, there was really not much more I could have done. There had to be something within him that really ignited to do whatever it took to fight for his own health.But after that, I looked at, well, what were the reasons that kept him stuck in that it was his relationship with food, even though he wanted to release weight, his relationship with food was so specific. Eating, [00:36:00] eating processed. Right, eating junk food all the time. He would love chips with cheese and hot sauce, right?He would eat that as a snack. He would love burgers. He would love pizza. He would love all of these foods that were leading him to this path. And so his relationship with food and his own psychological understanding of food was what kept him trapped. He was an emotional eater. He loved sugar, right? And it didn't matter how much he worked out.It didn't matter how, how, how he tried to change his food choices. He just could not give up what he already knew. And so when we look at people that are in this place, right, according to the statistics, it's we're using food for the wrong reasons. Our relationship with food is an unhealthy relationship.Therefore, our psychological view of food or [00:37:00] understanding of food is also an unhealthy one. And if we do not fix this or get to the core of these reasons as to why a person is making these choices, to get 'em to become obese and stay obese. Doesn't matter what diet you do, doesn't matter what exercise program you follow.It doesn't matter what ills you take, what supplements you take. The root, the core of what makes you up is your relationship with food and your psych, psychology of food. Therefore, if we do not change that identity piece, you're gonna stay stuck and you're gonna continue to go back to these habits. Right?Go back to these choices. That's why these statistics are so alarming and so eye-opening that if we don't do something about it, somebody in that state can become one of those 11 million. Right? And it's a staggering number. Hmm. [00:38:00] because of this poor relationship with food. Right. Meaning the poor habits that we have with food.De'Vannon: And you know, if when people go out and get these surgeries and everything, if their relationship with food doesn't change, they're just getting the weight back. Anyway. That's David: That's right. That's it. That's what I'm getting to. A hundred percent. Right. And we see that through many stories. But here's the thing.People go to that place because they're desperate. Mm-hmm. , right? And oftentimes people are just desperate. Give me a quick fix. Give me something. Just, that's why trends and the fitness industry makes so much money off of this. I have news for many people out there. The fitness industry doesn't care about your life.They care about your. , which is why they take out new supplements every year, new trends, every six months, right? Because they're playing off of your emotions because they know you're vulnerable. They know, a, as humans, we become very vulnerable [00:39:00] and become desperate for answers. So therefore they go, oh, now it's this.Ha ha, we just made several billion dollars. Okay, now it's this. Ah, we just made more million dollars off of this. And supplement companies know this, right? And that is where a lot of this toxic relationship starts to happen. But if we can pull back for a moment and say, okay, let's stop chasing these quick fix, let's stop going to just a quick, simple solution.Let's stop doing that and let's simply focus on this component. It's a small piece, but it is a large makeup of who we are. If I can teach you, That your relationship with food happened at a certain time in your life. And if I can help you change your relationship with food, therefore impacting your psychological understanding of food, your own psychology of food, we're gonna be able to [00:40:00]rewire your brain, which is now going to make sure that you don't go back to these unhealthy choices.You don't change you, you change those issues. Now you change you as a person. Now you don't need a diet program now. You don't need supplements right now. You don't need these quick fixes because now you've changed your core essence. And if we can change you and your makeup, you're gonna be able to stick to it.De'Vannon: It's been a long time coming, but change is going to come, so. So in your coaching, do you have like coaches that work under you? Do you deal with everyone yourself? How does that work? David: Right now everyone is myself. I do have, you know, other people within my business that help me with the management that help me with different of the technical side of things.But right now it's really just oversee by me because I've set it up in a way where I can manage it through group [00:41:00] trainings. If it's a larger base format through one-on-one type coaching. I only take a certain amount of students at a time to ensure that I'm bringing the best coaching to every individual.And then we also work with corporations helping them create corporate wellness programs for their own employees. De'Vannon: Marvelous. Now I wanna talk about, like, get a little bit more granular about some of like the the, the the health implications of becoming overweight. So it's not really about like looking fat so much as what it is doing internally.Yes, we buried somebody who was. In their mid twenties, you know, and he, because he was overweight, he, he, he was like, like his, he couldn't breathe. Mm-hmm. . And so before he, when as he was dying, he was in the hospital on a breathing machine and they had to induce a coma. Mm. You know, to just basically [00:42:00] let him pass, because what, what a lot of weight does it, it like, it strains everything.So That's Right. If you're, if you have like extra as they call it in the, in the, in the health world, Addie, post tissue, that's the scientific way of saying fat. That's right. That's right. I learned that in massage therapy school. Yeah. So if, if you have extra weight hanging on you, then it takes strain on the body.So that means your organs have to work harder to do what they're doing. They're less efficient. Your blood doesn't flow as well, because it has all this. added post tissue. In fact, to move around. It's like it's like if you feel a car full of just a whole bunch of junk and weights, it's gonna drain the gas faster, it's gonna grind the gears faster.The brakes are gonna wear out quicker of the extra weight. If you pick up a 50 pound weight and then you put it down, you feel lighter. Yeah. And so when you lose weight, you can move about easier, you sleep better, your whole quality of [00:43:00] life. Hell, for me, when I've been, like, when I've had a extra weight on me, it was hard for me to reach down and like time my shoes and shit like that.Like absolutely little simple like that, that simply get, like, that goes a really long way for like mental health and emotional wellbeing. Just That's right. Being able to, and then, then, you know, you know, sexually too, sex drive goes up when the weight goes down. That's right. So diabetes, heart disease, stroke, sleep apnea, which is kind of what I was talking about earlier.But tell us about, you know, your take on how this affects people in their daily lives and internally in their organs. David: Well, think of, think of a Python or a serpent that com contracts and compresses, right, and strangulate. When we have an excess amount on our body of this tissue, it's literally doing that.It's compressing our organs together. It's compressing our heart, it's compressing our veins, it's [00:44:00] compressing our tissues, it's compressing our lungs, a lot of it, and it literally starts to impact us in ways psychologically, emotionally, physically, right in bed to sleep, to have sex, to have relationships with people, to communicate.Most people that become overweight or become. In any of the levels of obesity also become very introverted, right? They're shamed. They don't wanna go out, they wanna stay inside, they get depressed. There's a lot of impact that happens to our life, and it's not so much about simply living, it really comes down to what is your quality of life like, what type of life, what quality of life would you like to have?So if we're in this state of being overweight and possibly OB obesity, your quality of life [00:45:00]isn't at a good standard. It's not a good quality. And when it's not at a good quality, it starts to really do a lot of damage, not only health-wise, but emotionally, psychologically, right? Which tears us down even faster.That is why health is a responsibility that we have to give to ourself and it's bigger than us because it doesn't only impact you, but it impacts everybody around you. It impacts your relationships, it impacts your mood, it impacts the way you speak. It impacts your energy levels. It impacts your relationship with your kids, with your spouse, with your boss.It impacts your performance. And so that is why I'm such an advocate of understanding that health is a [00:46:00] part of my life, my makeup. If we can take the view of it, our perspective of it in that way, which is why I'm really on a mission to change the scope of how people view health, right? And how people view healthy living a lifestyle of healthy.Freedom versus simply wanting to lose weight, simply wanting to look better. That's part of it, but it's not the makeup that really is the impactful part that should be impactful for many people's lives. Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: Mm-hmm. , very well stated man. Very well stated. And I, and I also wanna point out like, you know, obesity in younger people.Yeah. It's like, it's like, just because you don't have like negative health problems specifically today mm-hmm. , sometimes it, it's like a [00:47:00] lagging indicator. It's like if you keep that weight on you for too long it can. That's right. Cause you to have problems later. Because, you know, sometimes some people go, well, you know, I feel fine.All my labs look good. I'm able to mm-hmm. , you know, but the thing is, Is that is that shit is sneaky, you know, it catches up. That's right. And lab, lab results and tests only things have to get bad enough for the lab results to the lab tests to be able to pick up on it. That's right. You know, it's like if you don't have enough of a problem, you know, those, those tests are not that thorough where they can just pick up on a little bit of an issue.It has to be enough of it. Yeah. For it to manifest on a test, and then by the, sometimes by the time that shows up, then it's too late to really deal with it. Yeah. So what I'm saying is don't think because you are young and you know, and you, you, you're, you're eating all of this. You what, how you know you're [00:48:00] overweight, that your health won't like suddenly fail you one day.Yeah. Like, I don't want people to fall into this trap of thinking like, well, everything looks good. So That's right. David: Yeah. Yeah. Because in the same way, it, it's just one moment, one. One consistent choice away from making all of that flip. Right. And look, and it's the same for skinny people. Did you know that skinny people are, have the highest heart attack rates than anyone out there?No, because they believe, because their metabolism, right. Is keeping them in this state of being thin. They believe that, oh, I can eat all this. I can eat this food, I can eat this, this burger, I can eat all this. So their intake of fatty food, of sugary foods are at a higher rate oftentimes that then causes that heart attack to happen.Right. And so it, it's, it's, it goes back to what is our [00:49:00] relationship with food like, what is our psychology of food like? Because if it's unhealthy at some point or another, it is going to break. It's going to blow up. In the same way, when we look at a relationship with a partner at the beginning, there might be some arguments, there might be some fighting.Then comes a push. Then that push becomes a slap. If the relationship is unhealthy, it starts to get unhealthy. If we don't address it, it's just a matter of time for it to blow up, right? Which is why a lot of what we do when we're even talking about obesity, I believe obesity is learned. Because when we look at, well, what makes up a person to become obese, if we're talking about the relationship with food and their psychologic psychology of food, well, we learn that at some point we were taught to eat this way.Food was introduced to us [00:50:00] from our young age. Therefore, in those moments of us learning how to become a human, how to eat, how to react, how to act, it stemmed from home. So if growing up all we were given was frozen food, ramen noodles, fast food, right? , as you grow up, you're gonna stay with that same relationship and sometimes it's gonna magnify to go from ramen noodles to eating, I don't know, one cup to five cups or whatever it is, to another type of food.Very similar to that. To salty foods. Right? To sugary foods. And that is why it's important parents, right? Or those that are adopting kids. We've got to learn for ourselves how to develop a healthy relationship and a healthy psychology psychology of food so that then we can teach that to our young kids so that then they can grow up with a healthy relationship the same way.[00:51:00]De'Vannon: Yeah. And I feel like marginalized and a lot of like ethnic. Communities are impacted more by this sort of thing because, you know, when you growing up in the hood and in poverty like I did mm-hmm. You know, you know, you too, the parents and everything are too focused on keeping a roof over the head or keeping you from getting murdered or shot or whatever.Yeah. So we never talked about like, okay, this is you gonna balance this plate. Like I have a dietician now, and so, you know, through the Department of Veterans Affairs and awesome. So they're like, and nobody's ever explained to me before. Okay, so if you're going to eat, say, boiled eggs, you just need two of those per day.And then you be sure that the most of your plate is vegetables and not proteins. You don't actually need that much protein. That's right. Like actually laying up re reading the back of a food label, paying attention to mm-hmm. , the amount of servings not being all quick Oh, a hundred calories. But it's Tenten servings in the [00:52:00] Yeah, that's right.That's exactly thousand calories. Yeah. Yeah. And so, So I just really David: wanted to, and how much is the serving? 10 chips? 14 chips, right? And we're eating the entire bag saying, oh, okay, great. There's no problem with this. Right? And look, we're responsible for our own, for our own body, for our own health, right?It's our responsibility. But we also have to look at, look, our environment may not be helping us, right? Let's look at the American standard diet, right? It's not the best. So it's very quick to sometimes say, well, this is the reason. Well, our boss is the one that brought these, these things. My friend is the one that brought my coworker, brought these donuts here.But just because things are like that in our environment doesn't mean we have to give into our environment. Doesn't mean we have to conform to these things. It doesn't mean we have to say yes every time they invite us to go get ice cream or to go do this. Right. It really ultimately, like you said, is educating ourselves [00:53:00] and taking this as our own responsibility.Because if I can be responsible for my own health and I can teach those around me as an example piece of how to be responsible the same way, then we can start to really take control of this thing that has just really spiraled from us, right? Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: Absolutely. And so we just have a few minutes left here.I want to So we, so we, you know, we, we, we've given people some very, very heavy Yes. Information right now. And so I wanna lighten it up for a little bit. it takes back heavy again because I'm gonna have you close us out towards the end with your near death experience. So let's talk about some ways that people can maybe implement this.So for me, what I found is that I'm, I'm, I'm from Wakanda, so I like it hot. I don't do Yeah. Temperatures below like 70 degrees. I'm like, bitch, it's cold. I'm [00:54:00] putting my teeth David: up, and running. I'm inside the house with the sweater and the, the, the ACS off , De'Vannon: right? I'm like, I, so I, I observed within myself. I work out when I w used to try to go to the gym, come like October, I'm like, fuck all that.I'll see y'all again in April. Yeah. And so my weight would go up in the winter. Right. So what worked for me was I had an empty room in my house and then I put a treadmill in there, which you can get them from like Walmart at Target. Yeah. A weight bench. I got adjustable weights so that they take up less.Beautiful. That's right. And then my dad gave me one of those multi-function machine thingies and so, so that I had to bring the gym to me, so that's perfect. Yeah. That's what worked for me. So what suggestions do you have for people to, to make it work for them or anything like David: that? Look, that's one example of a great way we can do that, but might, some people might say, well, I don't like working out in that format.Okay, great. It's [00:55:00] how can we keep things simple? If one thing you take away, I want you to take away this is asking ourselves, how can I make health or healthy living? Simple meaning, what's one thing I can do? That is simple that I can achieve, but that I can make it fun. We forget that healthy, a healthy life should be fun.And when we get to these states, they're darn well fun because you're able to do more. So in today, if we look at, well, all I can do is walk. Okay, great. How can we make walking freaking fun? Can we find a, a partner that we could do with? Can I listen to some awesome music? Can I watch a video while I walk?Right? Can I, can I skip? Oh, what are people gonna think? Who gives a rats? [00:56:00] What can you do that is fun? You like to. Put on a freaking show in your living room. You like to sing, freaking sing your heart out in the living room while you dance. That is part of exercise that is part of fun. I had a student a lady, she, she loved to country line dance.What would she do? She'd go dancing as many times as she wanted, as she could line dancing, and that was her exercise, right? Get some pool noodles and freaking sword. Fight with your partner, get some Nerf guns and play outside, right? Like, it really is about how can I make it simple and how can I make it fun finding something today that you can do?What is one thing? Oh, well, I don't have time for this. Oh, well, I don't have time for that. What can you do? Let's stop being negative and look at what's One thing I can do. Another thing that I tell my students is every time you go pee, when before or after you're done, do five squats. Do 10 squats. [00:57:00] How much does that take you?That literally takes you five seconds to do that takes you 10 seconds to do. You go pee 10 times. How many, how many squats did you already do in one day? 50 to a hundred squats in a matter of seconds. Right? So it's really about how can I simplify this thing? Because if it, anything that we do in life is overwhelming and complicated, look, oftentimes we overcomplicate it, right?But if we can simply keep it down to, to the core essence, what is health? Health is being active, okay? What's one thing I can do to be active? Go up and downstairs while you listen to some cool music. Go walking, go punch, get a punching bag, put somebody's face that you hate and punch the snot out of it. I don't know.Let's get creative because it's so able, it, it, it's accessible and it's so achievable, but it really just comes down [00:58:00] to us.I De'Vannon: just love to hear you speak and y'all, he has a, a book that he's working on that'll be out eventually and I can't wait to get my fucking hands on it. To, to, to, to devour the written version of this artistic poetry that you weave with your vernacular. And so Yes, yes. But where, where are you? The book anyway, David: we are, first draft is done.We're going. Making tweaks and adjustments and we should be working on that second draft here pretty soon and hopefully becomes the final draft and then we can send it off to, to printing. So we're excited. De'Vannon: Oh, oh my God. If you could get a book edited in three drafts, I would be impressed. It took me 10, I believe it mine.My, David: what helps is my wife is she's like a, a, a really strong, she [00:59:00] didn't get her English major, but she got her psychology major, but she is one of her strengths if she could go back to school, would be to become an English major. So she's helping me make sure that that thing could be ready as soon as possible.So we're excited. And what's the De'Vannon: premise of the book or the, or David: it's, the premise is really to introduce this concept, this understanding of the root causes of why we stay stuck in certain behavior patterns. And it's really to shine insight on, it's not just that. There's a flaw in you or that you can't be healthy, you can't release weight.No, no, no. We all can. If we can really simplify it to the core principles that makes up this, which is really our choices and our behavior patterns, right? So we're really breaking this down into a very simple, digestible understanding for people to learn this, this side of of health, because I believe it's gonna really be groundbreaking for people to [01:00:00] start changing their choices that yet then changing their behavior patterns to become healthier.De'Vannon: Okay. I can't wait to have you back on the show to discuss that. So, before you talk about your near death experience, it just occurred to me, I'd like you to, to address some, some people may say, well the healthy foods only at places like Whole Foods, and I can't afford that shit. , you know, what, what would you say to people who may have like, budgetary concerns or believe that Great question.The healthy food is, is super expensive. David: Yeah. Great question. Great question. I believe we can all be healthy in any budget, right? Because we don't ha we don't have to eat all foods, we don't have to eat everything in a grocery store, right? There are core principles that if we can adopt and understand, we can make good food choices.And that starts with understanding, well, what is a lean protein? There's, there's four makeups, right? In the way we should be eating. There should be [01:01:00] some type of protein in every meal. There should be some type of fiber, right? There should be a small amount of carb, right? To give us energy. Our, our primary food, our primary energy source from our body comes from carbohydrates, right?And then there should be some sort of essential fat. That is the key essential fat, right? Not just fat of all, of any kind. Right. So it really, if we can simplify it and look at, okay, what lean, what protein can I get that is inexpensive right now? Prices have gone through the roof. Okay. Can we get canned chicken, right?Can we get tuna? Can we get things that are proteins that are fairly inexpensive? We don't have to have the high processed foods. When we're talking about carbohydrates, there's low glycemic carbohydrates, meaning they have some type of fibroid substance that allows it to be [01:02:00] slowly dispersed in our body to turn into sugar, right?We don't need the chips, we don't need the ramen noodles, we don't need the pasta. We can find a list of low glycemic foods. Carbohydrates that help us find good sustainable energy. Right. We got our brown rice, which is very inexpensive, right. There is couscous, which is also fairly inexpensive, right? We have whole grain foods that we can find that are fairly inexpensive vegetables.Oh, well I don't like vegetables. Okay, well why don't we start with one that you do like that we can eat, right? And then, like you said, is having a vegetable with every food choice, with every meal, as many as we can. Right? So it's, again, it's about the education piece. It's about the knowledge piece. Can I understand what good or healthy relationship with food is so that I can then start to implement it?Right? So it's find these three cores. [01:03:00] If we can have a protein in every meal, if we can have a carbohydrate that is a low glycemic carb with every food, and if I can have a vegetable. More than likely we're already cooking within essential fat anyways, like an olive oil or some type of, of avocado oil, which is a, a essential fat.That's really all we need. Hope that's helpful. De'Vannon: Very fucking helpful. So tell us about your near death experience and then that'll pretty much wrap us up. David: Fantastic. I'd love to. 2018, I went on a mission trip to Haiti. Went to go work with a lot of help and support kids, orphanages. We have a close friend who's out there who has a, a men's kids, young men's orphanage, and a w and a young girl's orphanage.So we went to support him in what he was doing. I got back five days later. I was rushed to the hospital, what seemed to be a cold, but I had very high fever, about 110, 109. They [01:04:00] couldn't take it down with anything. Two days in there I was misdiagnosed six times. They couldn't figure out what w what I had.The third day there, there was a doctor from Puerto Rico who happened to be there. He overheard a conversation. He comes in and he says, I know exactly what you have. You have dengue fever and two other tropical viruses, and you're gonna feel like you're gonna die and you just might because there's nothing else that we can do.It's up to your body if it wants to survive. And he walked out. So, to give you a kind of a, a of a picture of this, I was at my strongest and biggest in terms of physique in size. I was actually training to compete the following year in body building. So I was about 245 pounds. I had about 25% body fat, a lot of muscle on me.I was the biggest I'd ever been. And after telling me this, I wanted to die. What we know about the dengue fever is that it's called the bone [01:05:00] crushing virus. It literally breaks up your bones from the inside, and it starts to shut down and eat your organs from the inside, right? It eats the muscle fibers, the muscle tissues, everything from the inside.My left lungs shut down, my organs were starting to shut down. My kidneys were about to shut down. I was one step away from hemorrhage and I wanted to die. That was it. I didn't wanna fight anymore. And so I just stayed there, literally unconscious for 10 days. And on the 10th day, the doctor came in and he said, well, we've got good news for you.You've beat this ding. And he said, had it not been because you were so healthy and you had so much muscle on you, you would not be here today. There's no reason you should be alive. And I said, well, if it wasn't because I was healthy and I had that muscle mass and because of God, I wouldn't be here today, right.Based on my faith. And so that experience turned everything around for me because [01:06:00] after I got out of the hospital, there was like this little internal, small voice that said, now that you've been given a second chance of life, what are you gonna do with it? What are you gonna do about it? And I woke up, I was like, wait, what do you mean?I thought I'm doing my best. I thought I could be more. I, I, I thought I, I am doing a lot with my life. But that really brought me into the turning point of what I was doing with my business, right? I was only, like I said, working with very exclusive clients. And at that point it was like, well, I'm not doing enough to impact as many people as I can with what I know.And that's what really put together body by purpose. That's what changed my whole concept, my whole value of life, my whole appreciation to people. Because when I, I, I made a commitment with my best friend that as long as I knew of somebody, I wanted to help them avoid what my best friend went through.But I really wasn't holding myself to that fully right? And so that's why I say that this experience, near death experience was the best [01:07:00] thing that could have happened to me. It changed my perspective on life. It changed my perspective on so many things. And obviously I don't take life for granted ever, but also the way I live life has also changed for me.How, De'Vannon: how in the hell does somebody catch UE fever? Is that from, so did something bite you? Is it air, mosquito bite?Well, , I'm glad That's right. I'm glad that your body decided to just, you know, everything happens for a reason. Yeah. And and it seems like the, the lower, you know, God takes us knowing he's gonna pull us back up. It's like we're stronger. That's right. For it. Yeah. I was devastated when I got H I V and I thought I was gonna die and I had this whole nervous breakdown, but now I'm like, you know what?I'm glad everything happened the way it did because it refined me, you know? Very well said. Yeah. So many different ways. And so, yeah. Alright. Yeah. So his website is [01:08:00] David hernandez.co emotion. His other website is emotional eating support.com. They click through to each other, and I will put all of this in the show notes with David's social media.Yeah. Well do you have any closing words forDavid: you're incredible. I mean, if y if I can get you to understand that and what that really means, that I don't know what life situation you might be in. There is still a makeup and a creation inside of you that is far greater than

Carly was a love addict from a young age and held captive in a toxic relationship for two years. When she met her ex-husband at 27, she forced the relationship to work because he was the least toxic person she'd been with in a while. Unfortunately, it descended into a cycle of him grabbing at her and her pulling back, making him feel unloved and her feel disempowered. She stayed out of a sense of obligation, but when the pandemic hit and her ex-husband lost his job, he spiraled into depression. At this point, Carly was in a state of self-deprivation and vulnerable to flattery, attention, and compliments. This is when her client--who was married--started pursuing her despite her shutting down his advances multiple times. He persisted and eventually called her from a different number, love-bombing her and begging her to give him a chance. Unfortunately, this ended in an all-too-familiar scenario. The client sexually forced himself upon her, making it clear that it is possible to be taken advantage of even if you don't say no. This is why it is so important to recognize the difference between a sex addict and a sociopathic or narcissistic person, and to run if someone is threatening suicide over you, or abort the mission if someone cannot be alone. It is also possible to disappear to save yourself from an abusive situation.Host Brianne Davis dives deep into the often-ignored dark side of romantic relationships. Through interviews and personal accounts of her own experiences with love addiction, she offers insight and advice to listeners looking to heal from past hurts and break free from unhealthy relationships. Join Brianne every week as she shares stories of heartache, resilience and triumph as she works to help others find the strength to overcome their situation and build better relationships going forward._____If you or anyone you know is struggling with addiction, depression, trauma, sexual abuse or feeling overwhelmed, we've compiled a list of resources at secretlifepodcast.com.______To share your secret and be a guest on the show email secretlifepodcast@icloud.com_____SECRET LIFE'S TOPICS INCLUDE:addiction recovery, mental health, alcoholism, drug addiction, sex addiction, love addiction, OCD, ADHD, dyslexia, eating disorders, debt & money issues, anorexia, depression, shoplifting,  molestation, sexual assault, trauma, relationships, self-love, friendships, community, secrets, self-care, courage, freedom, and happiness._____This month's sponsor - OMGYes - Check out their site for more info: OMGYes_____Create and Host Your Podcast with the same host we use - RedCircle_____Get your copy of SECRET LIFE OF A HOLLYWOOD SEX & LOVE ADDICT -- Secret Life Novel or on Amazon______HOW CAN I SUPPORT THE SHOW?Tell Your Friends & Share Online!Follow, Rate & Review: Apple Podcasts | SpotifyFollow & Listen iHeart | Stitcher | Google Podcasts | Amazon | PandoraSpread the word via social mediaInstagramTwitterFacebook#SecretLifePodcastDonate - You can also support the show with a one-time or monthly donation via PayPal (make payment to secretlifepodcast@icloud.com) or at our WEBSITE.Connect with Brianne Davis-Gantt (@thebriannedavis)Official WebsiteInstagramFacebookTwitterConnect with Mark Gantt (@markgantt)Main WebsiteDirecting WebsiteInstagramFacebookTwitterTRANSCRIPT[0:00:00] Carly: But it was just continual threats of, you know, I will tell my wife, she'll come after me. And she does have a history. She'll come after you, she'll come after your license. I will destroy your life. I will get your kids taken away from you here. I'm in the middle of a divorce, too, at the same time, so there's a lot of poll there.[0:00:30] Brianne Davis: Welcome to the Secret Life Podcast. Tell me your secret, I'll tell you mine. Sometimes you have to go through the darkness to reach the light. That's what I did. After twelve years of recovery in sex and love addiction, I finally found my soulmate myself. Please join me in my novel, Secret Life of a Hollywood Sex and love Addict. A four time bestseller on Amazon. It's a brutal, honest, raw, gnarly ride, but hilarious at the same time. Check it out now on Amazon.Welcome to Secret Life Podcast. I'm Brianne Davis-Gantt. Today, I'm pulling back the curtains of all kinds of human secrets. We'll hear about what people are hiding from themselves or others. You know, those deep, dark secrets you probably want to take to your grave, or those lighter or funnier secrets that are just plain embarrassing, really, the how, what, when live at all. Today.[0:01:31] Brianne Davis: My guest is Carly. Now, Carly, I have a question for you. Dun dun dun. What is your secret?[0:01:39] Carly: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. My biggest life secret is how I ended up being literally held captive by a qualifier for about two years. And on the outside, I was like, this working professional and raising three kids and doing all that, but nobody would have known that on a day to day basis, I was like, being tracked and couldn't communicate with friends and was stuck at home in my personal life. Yeah. So it's a complicated story, but I thought it would be better to start with the end first so that we kind of know what we're building up to because there's obviously history there as to how one gets to that place.[0:02:22] Brianne Davis: Yeah. So take us back take us back to the beginning. How did you get involved with this person?[0:02:29] Carly: Yes, well, we'll actually go back a little bit further than that because it's important. I'll just truncate the earlier years of my life, let's just say that I became a love addict pretty early on. Didn't get a lot of affection and love from my caregivers, and so really learned early on in high school years, early 20s, like, relationships hit the hit just that spot for me and was involved in a lot of relationships just because I wanted the validation and the approval and the praise. So I just wanted to share that piece because this has been a long, ongoing pattern that I think really built up for this.[0:03:13] Brianne Davis: I have a question for you, though. I have a question before you get into that, because you said you would get with people for the attention and validation. Did you get with people that were toxic? Did you get with people you weren't really in love with? Did you get with people that just liked you, so you automatically liked them? What was that little dynamic?[0:03:35] Carly: Yeah, I think that's a great question. I would say all of the above. It kind of just depended on the mood I was in, what I needed. Sometimes I'll even say, like, how desperate I was.[0:03:45] Brianne Davis: Yes.[0:03:46] Carly: The very first relationship that I really noticed this love addiction over was a qualifier. He was definitely a narcissist, and so I got hooked into that. Unfortunately, he did rape me in the day rape scenario, and so I think that also there was this trauma bonding piece there.[0:04:12] Brianne Davis: So you dated him after he did that?[0:04:15] Carly: Yeah, that was the first time I'd ever had sex, and I had told him I didn't want to have sex. I wanted to wait until I was married. And he played along for a while, and then one night, he just forced me to do it. Like, literally held down. Wow. And so after that and it was so confusing because at this point, I was infatuated with this person, and I just couldn't see him for who he really was. And I was 18, and he was very popular, and he was kind of picturesque. We were both pretty well into our sports and went to college for that. So it's kind of this picturesque from the outside scenario.[0:04:56] Brianne Davis: But inside, he totally violated you.[0:04:59] Carly: Yes.[0:04:59] Brianne Davis: Didn't listen to you, you didn't have a voice, and that was your first person you ever slept with and how damaging that is.[0:05:08] Carly: Yeah, well, I just remember walking away feeling ruined, like, okay, I have to stay with this person. I have to make this work because I don't have anything to really offer. That's an important piece. That relationship went on and off for about three years. But I would say that we'd get into a lot of relationships, some that were toxic, some that were convenient, some with people I wasn't even interested in.[0:05:36] Brianne Davis: I've been there too. I was like, oh, you like me. I guess I like you, too, for.[0:05:42] Carly: The attention I liked that. The validation, the praise. I believed I needed that stuff.[0:05:50] Brianne Davis: Did you always feel, too, for you with the power dynamic? If someone liked you and you weren't really interested in them, at least you had that power position?[0:05:58] Carly: Yes. Because I could always play the card if I needed to. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay, cool.[0:06:04] Brianne Davis: Thank you for sharing that. I was just wondering.[0:06:06] Carly: Thank you.[0:06:07] Brianne Davis: But you were saying then at 26, you were about to stay at 26.[0:06:11] Carly: Yeah, 27. I had been dating on and off, and many of my friends were married at that time and were starting to have kids, and so I was feeling the pressure there to do that, and I hadn't really found anyone that I'd hand out. And so I met my ex husband at 27 and I pretty much forced it to work because he was like the least toxic person that I had been with in a while. And he needed some rescuing, which we all love to do.[0:06:48] Brianne Davis: You need some rescuing? I'm there.[0:06:50] Carly: That's right. You need me, I will be there. And so I kind of knew in my heart that my higher power was like, no, but I pushed it. I own the fact that I was not ready to be alone again. And so I kind of forced that situation.[0:07:10] Brianne Davis: What do you mean by forced that situation? Mean, in your mind, you forced it.[0:07:14] Carly: Yeah, exactly. He was way into me and was fine. He was pursuing me. I just had other insight in my heart that I was like, It's kind of a mess. Like, his family life was a mess. I mean, there was just a lot going on, but I was terrified of being alone again. I was like, no, this person is good enough. I remember saying that and thinking that this person is good enough. Because I think, I believe deep down in my heart that I might be alone, that I might not get married. And I think that has a lot to do with my feeling of value and self worth. Yeah.[0:07:52] Brianne Davis: Especially if everyone around you is doing it.[0:07:55] Carly: Yeah. And asking you, right, when are you going to settle down? Or whatever. So that's what I mean by force, that I didn't force him. I was forcing myself, in a sense, to just ignore my intuition. Yeah. I don't recommend that, but I would.[0:08:13] Brianne Davis: Not recommend that either. Tip number one, don't ignore your intuition.[0:08:20] Carly: Great. Write that down. So we got married and it's kind of, I would say predictable a bit, but I was the love avoidant in the marriage. He was the love addict in the marriage and he was very needy and I was constantly rescuing and saving. And there was a lot of struggles in the marriage.[0:08:45] Brianne Davis: Can you name some in case someone is in a marriage that is sounding similar? Like, what are some of the struggles you remember?[0:08:53] Carly: Neither one of us really had a healthy sense of ourselves. I was very successful and confident in my career and he didn't have that confidence, so he would over rely on me to sort of build him up or help him get some connections. There was just a really overreliance on me for his security. And then what's interesting, right, I have some meshmen from my childhood. And so his grabbing at me is what that felt like was very repulsive to me. I was like, oh, my gosh, I need you to be a man, get your career set up. Yeah, I need someone for me. I'm forging a brand new business and doing all this stuff. Yeah. And so we would just kind of go round and round in circles with that, and he just didn't have the tools. And I didn't either, honestly, to just say, this is who he is. This is who I am. I can't make somebody be somebody that they're not. Because in rescuing, I thought, okay, well, I'll just teach them these things and I'll help them, and that's not my job. I don't think that's anybody's job.[0:10:07] Brianne Davis: No, it's nobody's job. I mean, I've been with my husband for 18 years, and there's things that I don't struggle with that he struggles with, that I can't fix for him or even teach him. It's like he has to do it for himself without side help. You can't do that within the relationship.[0:10:25] Carly: Exactly. And I didn't have a family that sought different help. I just went in with that naivety of like, oh, well, I'll help him and change him, and exactly. It was so disempowering for him. Right. Because I'm the one who's sort of, like, helping him through everything. And I think it was really emasculating in some ways, not intentionally, but when somebody's constantly helping and rescuing you, that doesn't feel empowering, that you don't get.[0:11:00] Brianne Davis: To even build that inner self of self reliance.[0:11:04] Carly: Right. Yeah. So as you can imagine, the cycle went on. He would grab at me, I would pull back. He would get really angry that I was pulling back, and he would not feel loved and cared for, and then I would just grab some more. I'd pull back. It was just kind of this really long cycle. Eventually, towards the end of the marriage, we were together. We were married for 14 years. Towards the end of the marriage, we had both just sort of, I would say, become apathetic. Like, we're just living together. Exactly. He kind of got settled in his own career, which, I mean, that was good. So I think we just sort of came to status quo, if you will. We weren't intimate.[0:11:49] Carly: We weren't connecting. We had three kids well, sorry, two at the time, towards the end of the marriage. And so we were living. And it wasn't bad, but it was, like, very lonely, just like, okay. And throughout my marriage, I didn't want to get a divorce. That was something that I should throw in here. That's just some of my own personal things. And my parents pushed through their marriage. I'm not saying that that was necessarily the best thing, but I think I just had agreed to, like, okay, this is what it's going to be like in my marriage. We're just going to do the best.[0:12:28] Brianne Davis: Of it, and I'm just going to keep living. Not thriving, but almost surviving. Right?[0:12:34] Carly: Exactly. I think that there was just this part of me like this would have meant we just had become apathetic. Never once in my marriage did I ever look at another man, talk to another man inappropriately. I really didn't. And I had not been unfaithful to anybody before that in any of my relationships. And I'm not saying that was like self praise. It's not something I had really, I just didn't believe.[0:13:04] Brianne Davis: I don't know. I think that's great because lots of people do do that, even DM, or getting that attention somewhere else, or having a close friend. That's what I hear about, I'm like close friend, please, or emotional affair or even a physical affair. People do do those things instead of saying, hey, something's wrong in this marriage. But yes, I think it's great you didn't go that route. I've went that route.[0:13:28] Carly: I'm the cheater.[0:13:29] Brianne Davis: Totally.[0:13:30] Carly: So, I mean, it's interesting, right? The route that I went was just like sheer self deprivation. That's really what ended up happening, is like, okay, well, I'm going to settle for this, and it's just going to suck, and we're going to make this happen, and I just won't have what I need or what I want. I don't know. I just settled for that. And that's an old lifelong pattern as well. And my career to you by your.[0:13:54] Brianne Davis: Parents, it seemed it was mirrored almost.[0:13:57] Carly: Yeah, exactly. I was there for them. They weren't there for me growing up. I was there for them. So my career is important to mention at this point because I am in the mental health profession or the field, and I work with sex addiction, I work with sex addicts and with couples. And so it's interesting, right, because I had a lot of insight and a lot of knowledge about what does happen when you go outside of the marriage. Just all the stuff, right, with betrayal and trauma. And so anyways, had worked with many a male individually at that point, some quite truly narcissistic, truly controlling, manipulative. And I had actually learned how to advocate for myself and draw some really clear boundaries throughout those years with working with that population, and at that point had even just had to fire some clients depending on the situation of appropriateness and that sort of thing.[0:15:04] Brianne Davis: So first you learned in boundaries in your career before your relationship.[0:15:11] Carly: Which I understand that in a lot of ways, just because there are more clear boundaries in a profession, I believe, right, it's like, okay, no, we're not here to flirt. Like, I'm here too. We're here to work through what you're working through and hopefully get your marriage to work. Something like that. Anyway. But I bring all that up because when COVID hits, there was a few different things. My ex husband lost his in the airline industry, the airline industry went under, he lost his job, and he really spiraled into a pretty significant depression. Then he had an accident. He actually had a really bad accident and injured to his hand. It ended up amputating one of a finger in our backyard. So I say all this because during that same time so with COVID I'm starting to work full time. I am. He's unemployed. I am taking care of the kids as well. He's injured his hand.[0:16:16] Carly: He had to have three surgeries on the hand, so he cannot help at all with our children. And then the last straw was he was going to change careers again. And I was like, I'm drowning here. I can't support you through another career change. I'm growing the practice, doing all this stuff. I can't do that. To which he was very hurt and angry and whatever. And at that point, I just said, I'm done. I can't do this anymore. I need a separation. I can't do this anymore.[0:16:53] Brianne Davis: You were tapped out. You were tapped out. You were mentally, emotionally depleted.[0:16:59] Carly: I was, and I had given everything. And the last thing is that I had just given birth to our youngest a year before, or sorry, about six months before. I'm sorry about six months before. She would not take a bottle, so I'm having her transported back and forth up to my office while I'm working full time, breastfeeding, pumping, doing the whole it was just brutal. It was brutal.[0:17:27] Brianne Davis: Breastfeeding is brutal, brutal.[0:17:31] Carly: And it was kind of my third, so I was very familiar with but it was just the logistics of it were so hard. So anyways, I said, I want a separation. I want the separation. So essentially what had happened is about two weeks after we separated inside of our house at that time, because he didn't have a job, and I needed help with the kids wherever I could get some support, whatever. So we just did that. And a client who I had worked with for about a year and a half had started giving me probably the month before. Clients can read energy, by the way. I'm just going to share that because they just can. Right. You're in a room with another person that you talk to often. So this client had inquired, is everything okay? What's going on? We had worked together for about a year and a half. This client is married and had given off kind of this flirty vibe that I had shut down a few different times. Absolutely not.[0:18:31] Carly: Yeah, and that's not what we're here for. This client had inquired, hey, is everything okay? You seem a little off. And I just didn't give any details. I just said, yeah, I'm just going through a lot personally. There's been a lot going on, and that's about as many details as I usually give, honestly, just to sort of truncate this. They were very persistent and well, and I had sorry, I should say, I had told this client, I said, you know, I think our work is really coming to a close right now. I think at the very least, we should take a break, and we can pick it back up later if you guys are needing some more. I was working with him individually to theoretically sustain the marriage.[0:19:14] Brianne Davis: Yes.[0:19:15] Carly: To which he said, no, I don't want to break. He said, I enjoy coming here. This is kind of my outlet, if you will, and you're one of my best friends, which I said, no, I'm not. Oh, no.[0:19:26] Brianne Davis: Red flag. Red, black, red flag.[0:19:29] Carly: Exactly. I said, no, I'm not your best friend. I said, I'm flattered, in a sense, just to know that you feel a connection. I said, but that's not what this is. So he said, Well, I think I'll start spiraling backwards if we didn't meet. And I said, okay, we can do this for a couple more months, and then we can just go from there. Okay, mistake number one.[0:19:50] Brianne Davis: Mistake number one not trusting your instinct to know.[0:19:53] Carly: It was not trusting my instinct yet. And twice I had mentioned this, closing our work, and at this point, I had started to become internally, not externally, really, like what's the word? Just, I think, impressed. Right? That this person this is a person very successful, very well known in the community, was even, like, having those feelings or thoughts towards me. It was flattering.[0:20:22] Brianne Davis: Right?[0:20:22] Carly: And if you're flattering, your marriage is.[0:20:24] Brianne Davis: Dissolving, and you, oh, my gosh, there's this wound you have to heal, right? Any relationship that ends, there's a wound, so you hadn't healed. And then this guy that is probably attractive, really? That's flattering. I get it.[0:20:47] Carly: Anyways, we cut meetings, and he had mentioned a few sessions later, he was like, Sometimes I just think it'd be helpful if I could call you in between session and check in about a few things. And I was like, no, I'm not okay with that. I said, first of all, I think that would really be very difficult for your wife, that you're just calling up another female, even if it is a professional. I said, And I don't want any red flags raised with her coming after me. It's very sensitive in the field of betrayal.[0:21:15] Brianne Davis: Right. Well, you can get your license and stuff taken away.[0:21:19] Carly: Yeah, sure. And I'm another female, right, that the partners are talking to. So I never met with the wife or anything at all. That wasn't something she was interested in. But nonetheless, I just told him that, no, I'm not okay with that. So about two weeks later, this person calls me from another number sorry, text me from another number. And I think at that point, I was just, like, shocked and really flattered and intrigued, but also terrified I'm going to use all of those words altogether. And I texted back, oh, I didn't text back. No, I did not text back. I called because I didn't know who had access to what.[0:22:09] Brianne Davis: Yeah.[0:22:10] Carly: And I said, what are you doing, and Where is your wife? Like, what is going on? And he was like, Well, I know you don't just like me as a friend. And I said no. I said, I think the story is you don't like me just as a friend. So we got into this conversation, and he said he essentially just begged me. He was like, can you give this a chance? I want to make you the happiest woman in the world. I know how special you are. I think you're incredible. You're smart, you've got an amazing career in practice, blah, blah, blah, blah. All the flattery, all the love bombing. Just name it what it is.[0:22:46] Brianne Davis: First of all, tip number three, he didn't respect your boundaries and called you on a numbered number. Tip number four, he loved bombed you while he was married. There we go. There's all the tips so far.[0:22:56] Carly: There's all the tips. That's right. We're ready to move down. But here's the thing, right? It's like, at this point, I was in such self deprivation that this was all very hard for me to resist, even when I was, oh, it is absolutely.[0:23:13] Brianne Davis: That flattery, that high, that feeling wanted. Especially after being in a marriage that didn't wasn't healthy. You're like anything. You're, like thirsty for water.[0:23:27] Carly: Exactly. I love that you said that, because I have three close friends who all use the same analogy, like, thirsty people will drink dirty water. I was like, so true. So true. So essentially, he said, look, can you just think about this? And I was like, there's nothing to think about. I said, this is my license. This is my life. I said, I can't do this. And so at that point, he started spiraling. And so like, well, I'm going to kill myself then, because I can't not have you in my life.[0:24:02] Brianne Davis: Tip number five, if someone's going to kill themselves over you, run.[0:24:08] Carly: It's true. Although that was a huge trigger point for me, honestly. He was like, and everyone will know because you're my therapist. And so it was going to make it sort of like it was insinuated, right? But it was going to be this very public thing because of me. And this is somebody who has connections, I mean, with everybody. I didn't want to say later on in the story, I didn't call the local police. I called the city police because he's connected. So that being said is I panicked, and I was like and he was like, Just give it just give it 30 days. And I was like, fine. I will give it 30 days.[0:24:52] Brianne Davis: You said fine.[0:24:54] Carly: I did.[0:24:54] Brianne Davis: You were taken hostage already?[0:24:57] Carly: Yeah. What are you signing the lease for?[0:24:59] Brianne Davis: 30 days.[0:25:00] Carly: Well said. Thank you.[0:25:02] Brianne Davis: You know what I mean?[0:25:03] Carly: Yes.[0:25:04] Brianne Davis: The insanity of that, I was terrified at this point.[0:25:08] Carly: It was sheer terror. I couldn't sleep. I couldn't eat. I actually went home and told my husband, who I was separated from at the time. I was like, look, this person has started pursuing me. I'm just not a secrets holder. I'm just not. I was like, so I said, I don't know where this is going. I said, But I'm not going to be lying about these things. So anyways, let's just fast forward. Almost the same scenario happened with my first boyfriend where this person ended up sexually forcing himself on me as well.[0:25:53] Brianne Davis: Someone you dated took advantage of you?[0:25:56] Carly: Yeah, well, if you can call it a dating I would say it's sort of like Stockholm syndrome, but totally.[0:26:02] Brianne Davis: You got held hostage. Let's just say, like he was threatening suicide, your license was going to be taken away, he could have made up lies, all that stuff. And you were being held hostage and he took sexual advantage of you.[0:26:13] Carly: He did. And I again told him, I was like, I'm not even there yet. I don't even know you in that way. I'm not there.[0:26:22] Brianne Davis: And where did that happen? Can you even say where that happened?[0:26:26] Carly: Yeah, I had gone away for a weekend to the beach in this area and he asked if he could drive down because it was just me. And I said, yeah, let me think about it. And so I said, yeah, that's fine. So we met up actually, like in this public place anyways. And so we met up in a public place and we were just talking and it was chill. And then we ended up this was again, not what you want to do, but we ended up going back to my room. It was freezing and raining and so we ended up going back to my room and it was a big suite, so we're just sitting on the couch area. And I was really intentional about all of that too, honestly. And then I can't really remember parts of it. I disassociated pretty bad and I kept having some flashbacks. I had several flashbacks during that time. So he did. He forced himself on me. And I have such a hard time saying no, which is just sort of my trauma reactivity there.[0:27:38] Brianne Davis: Well, you freeze, probably.[0:27:40] Carly: I do.[0:27:40] Brianne Davis: Even if you don't say no and you freeze, you are being taken advantage of. Yes, you'd have to say no for it not but you actually don't. That's still sexual assault. I just want to make that clear for anybody listening.[0:27:56] Carly: No, I like that. I appreciate that. Yeah, I was physically shaking, physically shaking. And it was just full on compliance mode. And this person had already I mean, I didn't have a no with this person. So that happened and that was a real turning point to where, again, it triggered this like, I've got to make this work because I'm going to lose my entire life. He's going to destroy everything. Yeah, I saw this entire other side of this person. It's important to note this is sociopathic and narcissistic behavior. This isn't just somebody who is your typical sex addict. So I just want to clarify, there's a big difference, but of course not all these things are known until you're in these places reflecting, until you're showing their true self. But essentially this goes on, right? For a year and a half. Wow.[0:28:59] Brianne Davis: And I tried a long time.[0:29:02] Carly: I tried to leave numerous times, tried to leave numerous times, but I was, like, tracked, sometimes followed by different people. And it was just the whole thing. I did try to love him, to survive him. I did. There were attractive things about him and good things about him.[0:29:25] Brianne Davis: Was he still married?[0:29:27] Carly: Oh, yeah.[0:29:28] Brianne Davis: So you were even a secret in that?[0:29:30] Carly: Absolutely. I was completely secret. He refused. He could not leave the marriage until he knew that I was all in because he's terrified. And he was straightforward about this. I'm terrified of being alone. I cannot be alone. He's terrified of it. And he was like, you don't understand what happens to me when I'm alone. And of course, in my mind of being, yeah, I do know what happens to you.[0:29:51] Brianne Davis: Kid number six, if someone can't be alone, abort mission.[0:29:56] Carly: Right? There you go. So, yes, this whole time, and I kept telling him, I was like, she's going to find out. Everything in the dark, comes into the light. And let's be clear that this wife, rightfully so, had trackers on all of his vehicles. This is somebody with multiple trackers. Cell phone tracked his cell phone, had everything stained. He's calling me and connecting me with a secret phone this whole time. And he's living there, and they are separated in their house as well, and they have been for a long time, but he's living there because he can't leave her unless he knows everything's okay with me. Well, I'm not giving him any indication that I'm sticking around because I'm continuing to try to avoid this whole thing, but it was just continual threats of, I will tell my wife, she'll come after me. And she does have a history. She'll come after you, she'll come after your license. I will destroy your life. I will get your kids taken away from you here. I'm in the middle of a divorce, too, at the same time, so there's a lot of I know we're running.[0:31:00] Brianne Davis: Out of time, but how did you get out of it? I'm just like, on pins and needles. How did you happen to get out of it?[0:31:07] Carly: Well, what I did was I secretly planned to admit to trauma treatment. I knew I needed to go to treatment and get out. And despite the bullet, I already had a restraining order on him at this time, which he was complying with as long as I didn't leave him. But all threats were still at bay. He's like, I'll post pictures of you all over the internet. I'll do whatever. So I essentially had to make a secret plan with my best friend. She booked the tickets, and I did all the treatment planning, and I did it all in secret from a different device. And then one morning, actually, unfortunately, it was ironically. On his birthday.[0:31:55] Brianne Davis: Happy birthday.[0:31:57] Carly: I woke up and I left and I was gone for a couple of months. Wow. And there was a little bit of contact had after. When I came back, this was really different. It wasn't anything like that. And that was it. That was it, essentially. I don't really know what happened. I fully believe that God just rescued me from that situation. And he got distracted or something by somebody else. Once. I was just unattainable. I mean, I just was gone.[0:32:26] Brianne Davis: You just cut it all off. You just pretty much just disappeared to save yourself.[0:32:32] Carly: Yeah.[0:32:32] Brianne Davis: That's what I tell people. I work with this one client. I'm like, disappear. You can disappear. You can go, you can go. You can get out of this. You can get away from this abusive person. Wow.[0:32:46] Carly: If it's bad enough.[0:32:47] Brianne Davis: So if you're stuck, disappear, it's okay.[0:32:50] Carly: Yeah.[0:32:51] Brianne Davis: Because a lot of people think that's weak, just so you know. And I don't think it's weak.[0:32:55] Carly: Well, I'm back in the same area. My practice is what it is. I didn't even get to get to this part. But she did find out about the phone and about me and so my license no, the board was very supportive, actually, because I just told them the whole truth. And I had evidence and all this, you know, text. And I had I told them the whole truth of the situation to which they were very gracious of an understanding of because, honestly, I should have had my license revoked. That's just the reality of the situation. But I did not. I don't have any restrictions on my license. And I see that as just the grace of God.[0:33:32] Brianne Davis: And also your authenticity of the truth. Do you see what I'm saying? There's accountability and saying, yes, these are the things that happen. Here's how it happened. Did I have a part in it? Yes.[0:33:44] Carly: And I told them all of that. I did.[0:33:47] Brianne Davis: I think that is the saving grace of you, I just have to say, because there's this part of you that's really authentic in the real and the raw and the struggle with yourself and with others.[0:34:00] Carly: Yeah, thank you for that. I appreciate that. I do believe that the truth sets us free. I do.[0:34:06] Brianne Davis: It does. Oh my God. We're running out of town and we could literally talk forever, but is there anything else that the listeners you think need to hear or something that you really learned from this experience? I know we only have a couple of minutes left.[0:34:19] Carly: Yeah, it's okay. I just hope that some people can maybe connect with some of the details. It's a crazy story. So not all the details, but bits and pieces right. That you can connect with. I still work program. I am in a twelve step recovery program for sex and love addiction. And I work program and I've learned so much through this, just about even what I want in my own relationships. Personally and professionally, yes, but more so personally. And that everything has a silver lining. All tragedies. I've grown so much from this and I have such a just heart in general for people going through this. But you don't have to stay in that. You do not have to stay in that. No matter what.[0:35:03] Brianne Davis: No matter what. Thank you so much for coming on Secret Life. I'm so grateful for your story.[0:35:09] Carly: Yeah, thank you for having me.[0:35:10] Brianne Davis: And if you want to be on the show, please email me at secretlifepodcast@icloud.com. Until next time.Thanks again for listening to the show. Please subscribe rate share or send me a note to secretlifepodcast@icloud.com. And if you'd like to check out my book, head over to secretlifenovel.com or Amazon to pick up a copy for yourself or someone you love. Thanks again. See you soon.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Gerald Awak is my guest. He is an African-American fella from Houston, TX. He would tell you that his experience growing up without a father had him seeking guidance from the older men in prison.There were a lot of fights in prison. It sounds like a lot of them he initiated because it would help to make sure he maintained his own cell.That was when he wasn't in "solitary," as he refers to it. What he calls the" free world," we call solitary confinement.But Gerald got a lot smarter spending so much time behind bars. With nothing but his thoughts.He was let out of prison early for good behavior. But you know, and this isn't to take anything away from him, I heard a lot of people got out of the pen early for good behavior during COVID—I should ask him about that.He's utilized the knowledge gained from them to make a real impact now that he's out. He's determined to do something with his life. He's a rapper you can find on Spotify—he goes by 3G, which stand for Good, Gone, Gangsta, which he explains in this episode.

Your “someday” trip can happen. All it takes is the decision to start. Listen in to today's episode about traveling to escape into your life, broaden your perspectives, and interact with society in a way outside your comfort zone. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:Quit saying someday. Begin to think through your dreamQuestion what's the first step to making the trip happen? How travel can be an escape into your life, not from it. How to make a habit of travel accessible Skip the commercial travel industry The value in taking an interest in people Why travel is more than just a vacationGive yourself permission for your trip to change.Episode References/Links:Rolf Potts websiteRetreat updates  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.Be It Till You See It Podcast SurveyUse this link to get your Toe Sox!ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookLinkedInEpisode Transcript:Brad Crowell  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.Lesley Logan  Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co host in life, Brad and I are going to dig into the nomadic convo I had with Rolf Potts in our last episode. If you haven't yet listened to that episode, go feel, go, go feel free. You should feel free (Brad: Feel go for free.) You should feel like you could go freely to listen to that episode. And then come back and join us for this one. All I know is that Brad listen to it and he's like, "I think Rolf and I should be friends. (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell  Yeah. Yeah. Rolf and I obviously traveled similarly. And, and I loved it. I was like, "I can't wait to read his book." Now, I'm not gonna lie.Lesley Logan  Oh, you should we have it.Brad Crowell  I know. I saw it on the counter.Lesley Logan  You can, you can read it. You can read a page a day. You don't have to read the whole thing.Brad Crowell  Oh, no, I want to read his first book. (Lesley: Oh) I want to read his like original, this one's called The Vagabond's Way. (Lesley: The ... Yeah, yeah.) The new one is The Vagabond's Way and that's like 366 quotes and advice and stuff like that. No, I'm interested in reading the first one he published about his like stories through Myanmar and stuff like that.Lesley Logan  Oh, well, you should get that before we go on ... I mean, everyone you're listeners to this after we've come back from a trip but Brad you should get it before we leave you. (Brad: Yeah.) ... before we go, which speaking of we in real time, literally just got back, by the time you listen to this and your real time of ... (Brad: Yeah) listening to this episode. Well, I've just got back from Cambodia, (Brad: Yeah) and you can get yourself on the waitlist for the next one because I you've had so much FOMO.Brad Crowell  Oh, you don't know, you don't even know this was a, so our retreaters don't even know what we have planned for them. And they have not yet experienced this but by the time you'll you'll be listening to this, they will have experienced an epic waterfall that was dedicated only to the king, only the king and the royal family we're allowed to go there. And now it's open to the public. And it's very much off the beaten path is about an hour and a half outside the city. And this is not something that we usually do but we have an adventurous group with us this time and we (Lesley: Yeah) decided we're going to we're going to throw that into the mix ...Lesley Logan  Yeah, well it's also the to get to this particular place in Cambodia, you cannot take a big van, it has to be (Brad: Yes smaller ... ) a smaller car because it is it is like up through the mountains. And then there's also these apple bananas. This is the craziest thing when I saw they were red bananas. (Brad: Yeah.) Anyways, (Brad: They're pretty cool.) you can go you can join us next time.Brad Crowell  Yeah, this this if you haven't heard us talk about Cambodia before welcome to the podcast. (Lesley: Hi) We talk about it in every single episode.Lesley Logan  Yeah, yeah, we do we do right now. lesleylogan.co/retreats will get you on the waitlist, we do take limited amount of people and we are only doing one next year. (Brad: Yes) So if you keep going on to the next one ...Brad Crowell  t's gonna be the fall of 2023 most likely like September or October so anyway, that's what we're we're looking at. So get yourself on the waitlist, lesleylogan.co/retreats, plural.Lesley Logan  And so we are unpacking our bags, just the pack them back up because we're going into a different weather. We're going to Scottsdale Arizona, which you might think is warm, but it's not it's ...Brad Crowell  It's the opposite as Cambodia, possibly.Lesley Logan  ... Cambodia is hot and humid. And we're gonna go to someplace where our skin is gonna shrivel up, and we're gonna chap our lips, and we need a coach. Also, my goal is to do the Grand Canyon, and I just heard from the podcast I just interviewed but y'all will listen to later. But you can like do the Grand Canyon in a day. And I'm wondering if we can do that, wonder if we have the time to do that.Brad Crowell  So there's a there's a really interesting Grand Canyon experience that I don't know if we can pull it off. But if we can ...Lesley Logan  Is it the Glass Bridge thing? Because I don't know ...Brad Crowell  No the Glass Bridge is on the North side.Lesley Logan  Okay. I don't know about that one.Brad Crowell  Well that's like you know, terrifying ...Lesley Logan  The Calgary tower was was terrified. It was like two inches of glass and I was like aahhh.Brad Crowell  This is an eight mile hike down into the ... (Lesley: Yeah. I want to do that.) or at the bottom. And then also you can actually stay down there or at least you could pre COVID I don't know if they've opened it back up. But there's like a hotel.Lesley Logan  Yeah, we don't have time for that. We have time for the hike. So we're gonna do the hike part. And then we'll if we like it, and we like the digs. We can book it in later or for a future adventure. Let's just explore it.Brad Crowell  I will see. Well, we will. This is kind of a perfectly applicable conversation for this episode.Lesley Logan  I know, I know. But before we get to this episode, super, super quick because people have been asking and we've talked about in previous episodes, we are going on the winter Pilates tour. And you're gonna want to go to onlinepilatesclasses.com to see which cities we're going to ...Brad Crowell  Most likely OPC/tour. (Lesley: Yeah.) So onlinepilatesclasses.com/tour. But otherwise, you can just go to the website, you'll find it.Lesley Logan  Yeah, we'll put a little pop up thingy on there too. But space is limited in every class for variety of reasons. This space we're using, and we are just hitting like a couple cities up Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Nashville, look at the site for all cities.Brad Crowell  Just couple. (Lesley: Just couple.) ... Philly area (Lesley: We're working on that one.) Cleveland, St. Louis ...Lesley Logan  Just a few. But I do hope you come on the tour, we'd love to see you in person. We'd love to teach you. And also, because, you know, I know it's the holidays, but everybody wishes they had a little workout and escape and the holidays. (Brad: Yeah) So we're here to provide that for you. Okay (Brad: It's gonna be a blast.) so we had an audience question that I wanted to make sure that we thought to before we dive into Rolf.Brad Crowell  Yes. And I put this question into this episode, because because of this conversation with Rolf, and travel and inspiration, and I'm going to modify it. So the question was, why did you first go to Cambodia? And if you've listened this podcast at all, you've definitely heard me talk about my National Geographic experience. In fact, Lesley briefly mentioned it during the interview. But what I wanted to actually talk about instead was the mentality that I had of wanting to go versus finally going. And so when I first you've heard me talk about NatGeo, I was 12, I saw this amazing spread on Cambodia. I said, this is the Jungle Book in real life, I have to go there. And I was 12. But I didn't go to Cambodia until I was in my 30s. Right. And for me, I lived in Boston, and I was a college student I was working, you know, you know, hourly jobs, I was doing all this stuff. And I just the way I perceived, travel the way I perceived, especially Cambodia, it just seemed like I might as well have been trying to go to another planet. And and that's just how I, you know, I was like, I will go there one day, someday, eventually, I'll get there. But I never actually made it a priority. And until when you asked me, Where are we going on our honeymoon, I was like, "Oh, this is it, I finally can do this, we're gonna go do this." And that was when the decision was made to go. And that's when we actually started to plan it. And the thing that was hilarious to me was it was the first time I ever actually looked into going, I always wanted to go, but I never looked into going and when we were looking at our plane tickets, it was cheaper to go to Cambodia than it was to fly to my parents house for fucking Christmas.Lesley Logan  I know that really (Brad: I'm like ...) that's what we ... That's like, I'm not flying again.Brad Crowell  What the? But that was the crazy thing was I could not believe how accessible that actually was.Lesley Logan  Well, I think and we can talk about it, you know, as we get into Rolfs' episode as well. But I too, because I grew up not traveling. And I grew up every single time travel is expensive. And hearing people say we saved up for like we do a trip every other year, whatever. So just saw that travel was hard, travel is expensive, travel is things that people could do on someday. And you said that the word someday, (Brad: Right) that word bent and just need to get out of the English language because it should be I'm going there. (Brad: Yes) I'm going there. (Brad: Yeah.) And when people say when you can say I'm working on that, I'm gonna get back to you. You don't have to like you, can you but I think it's so easy to make someday never. (Brad: Yeah.) And you and you just said it. You didn't even look to see how much it would cost. (Brad: I never actually look into it.) What a great inserted BE IT action item. Just look at (Brad: Great question.) just look at the place that you want to go or the thing you want to do. What if you just looked it up to see what it was? You could actually ...Brad Crowell  You know, wrap your head around. (Lesley: Yeah, yeah. ) You know, (Lesley: Yeah) because maybe it isn't accessible tomorrow, but maybe it could be in six months.Lesley Logan  Mm hmm. Oh, yeah. I mean, I just, we have a girl we're gonna have on podcast that she's a mutual friend of ours. Her name is Johanna White. And she is wanting to buy a house in like Greece and a couple other places. And she wants to rent the bla bla bla and she asked me like, well, so that's what she asked me. She's like, "How much was like the downpayment you had to have on your house?" And it was a great question for someone who wants to do something someday she's trying to wrap her head around this goal that she has, right? And so truly, if more of us did that, if more of us just like asked the question to get to the first next step of what we wanted. You could have all the things you want. (Brad: Yeah) You can't but if you go someday I'll do this and you don't ever look at how to even have the thing or do the thing that you want to do. It's a never day (Brad: Right) not gonna happen.Brad Crowell  Well, I love it. I love that question. I'm so super passionate about travel and I've lots of thoughts and comments on Rolf. So (Lesley: Let's talk about him.) we'll be back in just a sec.All right, now let's talk about Rolf Potts. As someone who never stays in one place for too long. Rolf Potts is a travel writer who has reported from over 60 countries and for publications like National Geographic and Discovery. He is a proponent of micro adventures, no matter where you are, and uses his curiosity to lead him when he isn't experiencing experiencing a new location. Rolf is probably with his wife at their farmhouse in Kansas.Lesley Logan  You know what, I just want to like toot my own horn for a second, I have not had two NatGeo contributors on this podcast. (Brad: Oh, yes.) And what? 152 episodes? That's pretty like, freaking great. Because it's like, what is it less than point 2% of people get picked to do NatGeo? Like what ...Brad Crowell  Oh, I can't remember what the stat was what it's like ...Lesley Logan   John Mollura's episode. It was like a very specific (Brad: Right) percentage.Brad Crowell  Yeah. John the photographer and now we have Rolf the writer.Lesley Logan  Yeah. So one thing that I loved was he said, make travel an active part of your life, not an escape from your life. Ooh, brilliant. Not an escape from your life, but an escape into your life. And his story that he used was when he, during the pandemic to travel, he did a 22 mile walk in his city, like across his town in Kansas. And, and it's so true. When you walk places, you start to see things you don't see when you drive. And they could have been there forever, like, Oh, my God, look at a store. It's like, Yeah, you don't see it when you're driving, because you're trying to hit another car, when you're walking, you get to take time to like, see it all and take it in, you can make it an adventure. And I do think a lot of people go on vacations to get a break from their life, but what they (Brad: Yeah) end up doing is like getting sick. And, and not really the way that they prioritize a trip is an escape from their life. So they're not actually seeing how they can apply any of their trip into their life. You know, like, I that's something I do over there. It's not something I do here.Brad Crowell  Yeah, I think it's, we have this very, a couple of comments first about the walking across the town, I'll, I'll comment on that in a second. But this idea of the vacation being the moment that you can take a breather, the moment that you can like, Okay, finally I'll be able to rest or whatever. That's not really that's like, that's not necessarily reality trip, you know, like, when you go to a place I know, there's two types of travelers, the person who gets there with an itinerary of 400 things they want to do in a day. And then the person who doesn't want to do a single thing, and they just want to sit in the room or sit on the beach and read a book, right? In the thing, the thing with making it an active part of your life. What he was also getting at with walking across town, is he said, Look, when we were in the pandemic, we weren't allowed to fly, it wasn't an option? We could do that. So how can I keep traveling, even though I'm, I'm right here. And he his curiosity, which we mentioned during his bio, drove him to drove that's ironic to say that word, coincidence to say that word, what I mean is, instead of him driving his life from one town to the next, you said he had his wife decide to walk, he said it took seven hours 22 miles, but along the way, they got to see and experience and like feel this town that they've known forever, in a completely different way. And it was incredibly revealing. He talked about seeing these lovely fields and seeing pastures and you know, sheep and people and like little stands on the side of the road. And suddenly his curiosity was you know, lit on fire again. And he didn't even have to do any crazy travel expenses or anything like that. They just took a day and walked.Lesley Logan  Yeah, and I I think he said it somewhere in the episode like your your vacation can also start in like planning of it like you can you don't have to like wait till you get to the place be like no, I'm on my trip, you can actually be part of the whole thing can be part of the vacation. So ...Brad Crowell  Yeah, we talked about making a habit out of travel and this because this is an example of that. But you're exactly right. Like it could be how can you start practicing? Like when you get to a place and you've like, come up with your itinerary and all the things what if you came up with that itinerary in your hometown and tried a new restaurant locally, and you know, did a new park or a new hike or a new I don't know, like go test drive a car, something that you wouldn't normally do in your hometown. You can start that habit now. And then when you get to where your destination is, then you're there and you're already in the habit of being curious exploring.Lesley Logan  Yeah, I love it. What did you love that he said?Brad Crowell  Yeah, okay, so the idea of skipping the commercial travel itinerary. And letting curiosity guide your travel is one of my favorite things, right? There's different, like, there's different, quote unquote, types of travelers and the one that's FIT, Free Independent Traveller, the FIT traveler, is the person who's like, "Don't tell me what to do, I can figure it out on my own." Like, if they can do it, then I can do it. And I, I really embraced that mentality. I said it kind of in a little sarcastic way. But I like the when you go to a place where we're talking about escapism versus experiencing it, I keep thinking about, I don't know, Cancun, when you go to Cancun, you're effectively flying to a casino on the beach. But like, it's perfect, air conditioned, you're completely isolated, they just hand you tequila for four days straight, right, and there's food and there's turtles on the beach, and it's quite lovely and beautiful. But you have no connection at all, to Mexico in that space. You have no connection to Cancun, no connection to the people, you might engage with a taxi driver from the airport to the massive resort that's on the beach. Right? And, you know, look, there is a time and a place. Sometimes that is the trip that is the vacation, but that's definitely not like travel. Right? And and when you instead go to a place with the intention of meeting people and experiencing their food, experiencing their culture, seeing how they live, all of that being revealed to you, man, it is a completely different experience. And you went to the same place.Lesley Logan  Yeah. Well, I think you know, some people that kind of itinerary and those kind of things make an area feel safe. And the irony is, a lot of the stuff that happens to people happens in the tourist area.Brad Crowell  Oh, yeah. Well Rolf talks about that, where it's like, where are the pickpockets going to hang out, they're going to hang out with the tourists are, (Lesley: Yeah) they know, (Lesley: They know) they know where you are. But if you walked 10 minutes to the side of where that tourist areas, you probably won't find pickpockets because they're not hanging out there waiting to find you.Lesley Logan  Do you remember, we found that really cool. What was the name of that restaurant that we go to? It's it's got the treehouse and the wine, the drink scope and the thing and we actually were in one part of the town. (Brad: Wild) Wild. Yes. So we were, we were in one ... (Brad: This is in Siem Reap.) where this interesting part wasn't WaPo was a neighborhood near WaPo. And, you know, we just gotten like our, you know, a massage and really went to a really sweet restaurant locally, like just they're trying to teach people how to make Cambodian food, it was really sweet place to to eat. And we're walking, or like, oh, what's down this hallway over here. So we go through this hallway. And it's it's not even it's like a, so it's not a hallway of a business. It's a hallway between businesses. And it's, well, it's got these lights, and it looked really cool. And we're like walking, walking, walking, we fell upon a entire restaurant (Brad: Oh yeah) that we had driven past for years, actually. But because when we drove past it, sorry for my dog, when we drove past it, that it was closed during the day. So we didn't know that on the other side of this gate was this beautiful evening restaurant that you can just go sit out there, these different parents we can like lay down. So if we hadn't, if we hadn't done like, see seeing where curiosity led us, we would never have not we love those owners. And they've done some (Brad: Yeah) amazing stuff.Brad Crowell  Yeah. So they're lovely couple, and they they're employing an incredible team. And also, PS, when your dad and I were there, we found a beautiful space just behind them, too. In another alleyway that again, if we hadn't been curious and just explored off the beaten path wouldn't have known was even there. (Lesley: Yeah.) So anyway, the idea of skipping the commercial travel. I'm not saying like maybe stay in the hotel, that's fine, especially if you are concerned about safety. But the truth is that you will, as long as you aren't like getting drunk and stumbling through the streets, just like in the United States, like you could get in trouble there too. (Lesley: Yeah) Not necessarily with the law, but like someone could come along and take advantage of you because you're not thinking you don't have it together. What if you've got your mind together, you're probably going to be just fine. Don't do stupid things. Don't get in a fight with people, don't be drunk and running around. And wherever it is that you're exploring, you know, chances are high that you're going to be just fine, especially when you're off the beaten path. Because really, they're just as curious about you as you are about them. (Lesley: Yeah) And I know you told the story about me with the ceremony ... in the bowl. (Lesley: I love that story so much.) It's it was so funny, but But I remember the first time that we went like I don't, it was so it was so incredible because they were just as excited that we were there as we were excited to be there. And that actually felt very warming to me. And I actually I wrote down something that Rolf said, he said, this holds true from Kansas to the other side of the world. If you take an interest in people, people will be flattered that you're taking an interest in them.Lesley Logan  It's true. (Brad: Yeah) We've talked about before, like, if you want people to be interested in you be interested in them. And like, it's kind of in Dr. Benders episodes, you talked about that. So we could talk about travel and Rolf all the time ...Brad Crowell  Well, I have one more thing I want to say. I have one more thing this is this is something that has, this is very much a passion. It's a belief of mine, actually.I am convinced with every fiber of my being with all of the experience that I've personally had traveling, that getting out into the world, traveling is the best possible thing that you can do to broaden your perspective, about life, about people, about places. It travel removes fear, it creates empathy, it creates curiosity, it creates connection, it's the best gift that you can give to yourself. It's the best gift that you can give to your family, your kids, when you travel, it will completely hijack the way that you were originally thinking. It will allow you to see people, are people everywhere, even though they do things differently than you do them. Or we do them. You get there and see. Well, I guess they've been doing it like this forever. So there's got to be something to that as well, even if it's not how I do things. And it has just changed the way that I see the world.Lesley Logan  Yeah, I agree. I concur on that. I think that's uh, I wish more people would would travel because I think that it would actually it would change their life for the better even if it was just us a small trip here and there, like doesn't have to be anything big, just even even going if you're in the states in going from north to south, south to north. (Brad: Yeah) Like it's really kind of incredible how that can change your perspective on yourself and on others. (Brad: Yes)Brad Crowell  All right. So finally, let's talk about those BE IT action items. What bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your conversation with Rolf Potts?Lesley Logan  I'm gonna go first. (Brad: Do it.) I'm gonna jump on in. So he said the dream trip you've been thinking about it, it really started me decide it's going to happen. So we talked about it a little bit briefly, but like it and so instead of saying someday, or like I have a dream to go in here, like, it can start now. It can start with you, you like thinking about the kind of trip you want to have when you get there and how long you want to be there. And you don't have to just like wait to plan it, you can actually start start it today. That way, if you fall upon a couple extra weeks, like what am I going to go do? I'm gonna go here? You know what I mean? I think we look at people who can pick up and go, we think, oh, must be so easy for them. No, they've just been thinking about it. They've been ...Brad Crowell  They've been, they've been, well, I think actually goes back to the question that we had at the beginning, and making that decision of just simply exploring what it actually like, actually, would costs, actually would look like, you know, my brother went to Belize with his wife when they did their honeymoon. And I thought, "That's amazing. I want to go to Belize." I've never even thought about going to Belize, and I didn't know that he thought about going to Belize, but they just looked into it and sure enough, they were able to make it happen and what an incredible opportunity.Lesley Logan  Yeah, and I I think you know I want it, I love that you took it back to the question. I really want people to be a part of being it till you see it is not waiting until it happens to do it. Like part of being it till you see it is is thinking about that dream trip as if it is happening and taking steps and tuning your eyes and ears to seeing possibilities for that trip to happen. (Brad: Yeah) And because that's what they do, we've talked about this before. So I think actually, his tip is actually such a be it till you see it thing. So I hope I hear takeaways on this because I would love to see pictures of you on your dream trip now.Brad Crowell  I love it. My biggest takeaway is kind of two ...Lesley Logan  You really loved this episode.Brad Crowell  It was great, this is really amazing. Give yourself permission. Okay, and then slow down and enjoy the experience. Okay, so with the permission, regardless of how I think especially, I was talking about those two different mindsets of travel, you either have like 800 things you need to do, what? Or you're like, I don't want to do anything, leave me alone. Give yourself permission for your trip to change. Okay for you not to do 800 things, for you not to just sit alone by yourself. What if it did, you know something cool could come along, or you meet another guest and they say, "Hey, we're gonna go have dinner down there on the beach, along the beach? Do you want to come with us?" Or, "Hey, we're gonna walk across town, just something fun to explore."Lesley Logan  I love this. I actually went ... I went to a soccer game, you know I don't like soccer. But I went in Brazil, because like they're so big on soccer. So I went to one of their professional things. And I was in this was a tour group that was put together. But I met this couple and I said, "Oh, what are you guys doing for dinner tonight?" And they said, "Oh, we're gonna go to one of those places where they serve food. And there's music. It's they have bossa nova." And I said, "Oh, okay, I'll meet you." So I ended up like, I took one plan thing, and I allowed it to create curiosity on the rest of the trip. And it was so much fun to do it that way. I would never have taken myself to that bossa nova and then I would have missed out on all the things that I learned there. So I do think it's (Brad: I love it.) important to do that. And we had done this. Remember when we found that that farm that had like the bikes and like, we had found that bison stuff and like we've had some meats, because we're just driving, we're like, "Oh, what's this over here? Let's take a pause on this drive. And like, go do that." And we found this coffee shop (Brad: Where we?) It was Colorado. (Brad: Oh, oh I was ... Cambodia.) And we found we found this (Brad: Yeah) coffee shop. And then you guys here's what's so crazy. Two years later, we're on this drive. And we left me severity, just need coffee. And we're driving like, Oh, I saw I saw the meet play signs. And I was like, "There's a coffee shop nearby." And he's like, there is like, we are next to it. It's right over here.Brad Crowell  Yeah. Also, too, you know, I think that we become, you know, we become trapped by our preconceived notion of our, of what our experience is supposed to be. Okay, and very short story. But my, my brother, and I got lost in Maui. (Lesley: Oh, yeah ...) But you know, I'm not going to tell the whole thing but short story, we were in a national park and we stepped off the path and we got lost in the jungle. And five hours later, we find our way back. Now, here's a lot of fear there for me and my brother, also from my parents and my family. Right. But my, my, some of the people in my family were so angry at us, because we made them miss another waterfall that was on the checklist of the itinerary on fucking trip. And I was like, "Okay, I'm alive. I'm glad I'm alive. B) definitely made a mistake. Didn't mean to do that. But really a waterfall that like you're angry because we miss the waterfall. Like, I get it. I want to see this stuff, too. But what if instead, the trip had changed, and something else really amazing happened?" Right? And I think that, you know, I think that we allow ourselves to get bent out of shape, as in that kind of moment. And instead of experiencing where we're at, and being present, and enjoying what's in front of us, we're like, "Damn it, I didn't get to this thing that was on my list. I missed this specific restaurant ... whatever." And, you know, that's like ...Lesley Logan  Do you know how many times... Japan, we've had amazing ... times.Brad Crowell  We still haven't been a damn fish market.Lesley Logan  And we have been to the fish market, nor have we been to the one sushi guy. And we keep trying. (Brad: Yeah) But we have never said, "Damn, we didn't go to the fish market." Like we just like ...Brad Crowell  I guess I'll just go home now. (Lesley: I guess ... go home.) No, it's like, "Well, what are we going to do instead?"Lesley Logan  Yeah, we did. We found some .... We did some really ... (Brad: Amazing stuff) We found that one amazing shopping area with great restaurants. (Brad: Oh yeah) We found the cherry blossoms there and like, you know we would have missed that.Brad Crowell  We found a little hole on the wall sushi bar next to the fishing market.Lesley Logan  ... Oh that guy was great. (Brad: Yeah) Yeah. And we would never and he had so much fun hearing about us and sharing about his restaurant and (Brad: Yeah) his family and like, we would not have gotten that the fish market. No. So anyways, y'all get Rolf's book if you have not experienced travel like this if you're like, "This all sounds too foreign to me." Good. Go get his book, read a page a day. If you want to be like Brad has her book kill... Brad because her book club around the first book. (Brad: Oh geeze.) I know he's like, "No, don't do that. I'm already doing the Pomodoro method from last week." Anyways, how are you gonna use these tips in your life? I want to know. I'm Lesley Logan.Brad Crowell  And I'm Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan  Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's really amazing. I can't believe this is episode 152. We couldn't do this without you.Brad Crowell  Yeah. Big thanks to Rolf.Lesley Logan  Yes and to Rolf for writing some amazing books because of this amazing conversation. Make sure that you DM, DM your questions and your bold moments to the @be_it_pod on Instagram. We are on all the things, we're on the YouTube, we're on the TikTok. So wherever you enjoy watching or listening to podcasts or following and engaging with us, we want to do that with you there. And until next time, Be It Till You See It.Brad Crowell  Bye for now.Lesley Logan  'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'. Brad Crowell  It's written produced, filmed and recorded by your host Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli. Lesley Logan  Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.Brad Crowell  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianranco Cioffi.  Lesley Logan  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all videos each week so you can. Brad Crowell  And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each of our episodes so you can find them on our website. And, finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Samantha Skelly is a self-made entrepreneur and CEO of the multi-million dollar Breathwork and Wellness company Pause. She's a highly sought-after international speaker, best-selling author, and coaching expert with a heart-centered approach to life and business.  A leading authority on trauma healing and stress release, Samantha has made it her life's mission to rid the world of anxiety so people can thrive using the power of their breath.  Through Pause's signature trauma-informed coaching programs, breathwork facilitator training, and live events she provides uniquely accessible somatic and emotional healing resources, while also equipping clients with the tools and strategies to create and scale their own 6-figure wellness businesses. With the mission of helping 1 billion people by 2030, Samantha started examining the underlying causes of anxiety, trauma, and stress in 2014 with the Hay House best-selling book “Hungry for Happiness.” Samantha eventually grew the movement into the comprehensive wellness brand that Pause is today, supporting over 10,000 clients in 30+ countries worldwide.Her sustainable healing solutions have revolutionized the self-help industry, challenging the old “Band-Aids on bullet wounds” approach that kept people trapped in the yo-yo effect. She's been featured on the small screen on Global TV, Shaw, NBC, CBC, The Doctors Show, and BBC. And in publications like Forbes, The Huffington Post, The Elephant Journal, and The Prevail Project. Samantha hosts the top-rated podcast ‘The Sam Skelly Show' which has had millions of downloads over the last 5 years. A native of Vancouver, British Columbia, Samantha currently resides in San Diego, California. When she's not challenging the wellness and self-help industry or positively transforming lives, you can usually find her surfing, dancing, and supporting anti-trafficking efforts through her philanthropic initiatives. Listen & Subscribe on: iTunes / Stitcher / Podbean / Overcast / Spotify Contact Info Company: PAUSE Website: www.samanthaskelly.com Website: www.pausebreathwork.com Blog: Sam's Blog Podcast: The Sam Skelly Show Book: Hungry for Happiness, Revised and Updated: Stop Emotional Eating & Start Loving Yourself By Samantha Skelly Most Influential Person Her grandfather who recently passed away. Effect on Emotions Then they're not overpowering. I've, I've been able to observe them, not identify with them. When I identify with them. I feel like they overtake my whole experience. When I observe them, I realize that there's a witness observing my emotions. And because there's a witness observing them, I know that I am not them. So then I can shift and change them. Thoughts on Breathing Breathwork is the ability of using your breath to release the addiction to the cognitive mind, the monkey mind, the reptilian brain so that we can drop deeper into our bodies and actually use the energy of our heart to navigate the world, rather than the ego and the survival brain. Suggested Resources Book: A New Earth: Awakening Your Life's Purpose By Eckhart Tolle Book: The Surrender Experiment: My Journey into Life's Perfection by Michael A. Singer  Book: You Are What You Think: 365 Meditations for Extraordinary Living By Dr. Wayne W. Dyer App: Pause Breathwork: Heal Stress Bullying Story When I was going from grade six to seven, I got really into sports and playing outside. I was very active. I had a couple of extra pounds on me in grade seven, I was skipped, like so tiny. Because then I was a dancer and the rest of it. So this girl at school, her name was Isabella. She told the whole school that I went to fat camp, and that's why I was skinny and I was so upset, I was so pissed. And it just was like really awful. Because I was so young, I just tried to defend myself against her versus knowing in my truth that that's not true. Her projection of me isn't it has anything to do with me. I got really emotional rather than logical. If I hadn't mindfulness, then I would have saved myself a lot of pain from those words. So now, being an influencer of some sort, and having a social media presence, of course, you're exposed to people who don't like you. And I remember during COVID I put a meme up that I thought was really funny. But a lot of people thought that it wasn't, and I got bullied hard on that. And comedy for me is comedy is very healing for me. Breathwork Related Episodes Find More Joy and Less Stress With Pompe Strater-Vidal Experience Less Stress By Being Aware of Your Emotions Says Joshua Spodek Stress Management With Warriors At Ease Founder, Molly Birkholm Special Offer Are you experiencing anxiety & stress? Peace is within your grasp. I'm Bruce Langford, a practicing coach and hypnotist helping fast-track people just like you to shed their inner bully and move forward with confidence. Book a Free Coaching Session to get you on the road to a more satisfying life, feeling grounded and focused. Send me an email at bruce@mindfulnessmode.com with ‘Coaching Session' in the subject line. We'll set up a zoom call and talk about how you can move forward to a better life.

SUMMARY: Covered in This Episode: What is a Mental Compulsion?  What is the difference between Mental Rumination and Mental Compulsions?  How to use Mindfulness for Mental Compulsions How to “Label and Abandon” intrusive thoughts and mental compulsions  How to use Awareness logs to help reduce mental rituals and mental rumination  Links To Things I Talk About: Links to Jon's Books https://www.amazon.com/ Work with Jon https://www.sheppardpratt.org/care-finder/ocd-anxiety-center/ Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com.  CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors.  Go to cbtschool.com to learn more.  To learn about our Online Course for OCD, visit https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety... If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free, and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION I want you to go back and listen to that. That is where I walk you through Mental Compulsions 101. What is a mental compulsion, the types of mental compulsions, things to be looking out for. The reason I stress that you start there is there may be things you're doing that are mental compulsions and you didn't realize. So, you want to know those things before you go in and listen to the skills that you're about to receive. Oh my goodness. This is just so, so exciting. I'm mind-blown with how exciting this is all for me. First of all, let's introduce the guest for today. Today, we have the amazing Jon Hershfield. Jon has been on the episode before, even talking about mental compulsions. However, I wanted him to status off. He was so brave. He jumped in, and I wanted him to give his ideas around what is a mental compulsion, how he uses mental compulsion treatment with his clients, what skills he uses. Little thing to know here, he taught me something I myself didn't know and have now since implemented with our patients over at my clinic of people who struggle with mental compulsions. I've also uploaded that and added a little bit of that concept into ERP School, which is our course for OCD, called ERP School. You can get it at CBTSchool.com.  Jon is amazing. So, you're going to really feel solid moving into this. He gives some solid advice. Of course, he's always so lovely and wise. And so, I am just so excited to share this with you. Let's just get to the show because I know you're here to learn. This is episode two of the series. Next week we will be talking with Shala Nicely and she will be dropping major truth bombs and major skills as well, as will all of the people on the series. So, I am so, so excited.  One thing to know as you move into it is there will be some things that really work for you and some that won't. So, I'm going to say this in every episode intro. So, all of these skills are top-notch science-based skills. Each person is going to give their own specific nuanced way of managing it. So, I want you to go in knowing that you can take what you need. Some things will really be like, yes, that's exactly what I needed to hear. Some may not. So, I want you to go in with an open mind knowing that the whole purpose of this six-part series is to give you many different approaches so that you can try on what works for you. That's my main agenda here, is that you can feel like you've gotten all the ideas and then you can start to put together a plan for yourself. Let's go over to the show. I'm so happy you're here. ----- Kimberley: Welcome, Jon. I'm so happy to have you back. Jon: Hi, Kimberley. Thanks for having me back. Difference Between Mental Compulsions and Mental Rumination  Kimberley: Okay. So, you're first in line and I purposely had you first in line. I know we've had episodes similar to this in the past, but I just wanted to really get your view on how you're dealing with mental compulsions. First, I want to check in, do you call them “mental compulsions” or do you call it “mental rumination”? Do you want to clarify your own idea? Jon: Yeah. I say mental compulsions or mental rituals. I use the terms pretty interchangeably. It comes up at the first, usually in the assessment, if not then in the first post-assessment session, when I'm explaining how OCD works and I get to the part we say, and then there's this thing called compulsions. And what I do is I describe compulsions as anything that you do physically or mentally to reduce distress, and this is the important part, specifically by trying to increase certainty about the content of the obsession.  Why that's important is I think we need to get rid of this myth that sometimes shows up in the OCD community that when you do exposures or when you're triggered, you're just supposed to freak out and deal with it, and hopefully, it'll go away on its own. Actually, there are many things you can do to reduce distress that aren't compulsive, because what makes it compulsive is that it's acting on the content of the obsession. I mean, there might be some rare exceptions where your specific obsession has to do with an unwillingness to be anxious or something like that. But for the most part, meditation, breathing exercises, grounding exercises, DBT, certain forms of distraction, exercise – these can all reduce your physical experience of distress without saying anything in particular about whether or not the thought that triggered you is true or going to come. So, once I've described that, then hopefully, it opens people up to realize, well, it could really be anything and most of those things are going to be mental. So then, we go through, “Well, what are the different mental ways?” We know the physical ways through washing hands and checking locks and things like that. But what are all the things you're doing in your mind to convince yourself out of the distress, as opposed to actually working your way through the distress using a variety of distress tolerance skills, including acceptance? Kimberley: Right. Do you do the same for people with generalized anxiety or social anxiety or other anxiety disorders? Would you conceptualize it the same way? Mental Compulsions for General Anxiety Disorder vs OCD  Jon: Yeah. I think for the most part, I mean, I do meet people. Some people who I think are better understood as having generalized anxiety disorder than OCD, and identifying with that concept actually helps them approach this problem that they have of dealing with uncertainty and dealing with worry and dealing with anxiety on close to home, regular everyday issues like finance and work and health and relationships and things like that. And there's a subsection of that people who, if you treat it like OCD, it's really helpful. And there's a subsection if you treat it like OCD, they think, “Oh no, I have some other psychiatric problem I have to worry about right now.” I'm a fan of treating the individual that the diagnostic terms are there to help us. Fundamentally, the treatment will be the same. What are you doing that's sending the signal to your brain, that these ideas are threats as opposed to ideas, and how can we change that signal? Exposure & Response Prevention for Mental Compulsions  Kimberley: Right. I thank you for clarifying on that. So, after you've given that degree of psychoeducation, what do you personally do next? Do you want to share? Do you go more into an exposure option? Do you do more response prevention? Tell me a little bit about it, walk me through how you would do this with a client. Jon: The first thing I would usually do is ask them to educate me on what it's really like to be them. And so, that involves some thought tracking. So, we'll use a trigger and response log. So, I keep it very simple. What's setting you off and what are you doing? And I'll tell them in the beginning, don't try too hard to get better because I want to know what your life is really like, and I'll start to see the patterns. It seems every time you're triggered by this, you seem to do that. And that's where they'll start to reveal to me things like, “Well, I just thought about it for an hour and then it went away.” And that's how I know that they're engaging in mental review and rumination, other things like that. Or I was triggered by the thought that I could be sick and I repeated the word “healthy” 10 times. Okay. So, they're doing thought neutralization. Sometimes we'll expand on that. One of the clinicians in my practice took our thought records and repurposed them as a mental behavior log. So, it's what set you off. What did you do? What was the mental behavior that was happening at that time? And in some cases, what would've been more helpful? Again, I rely more on my patients to tell me what's going on than on me to tell them “Here's what's going on,” so you get the best information. Logging Mental Rituals  Kimberley: Right. I love that. I love the idea of having a log. You're really checking in for what's going on before dropping everything down. Does that increase their distress? How do they experience that? Jon: I think a lot of people find it very helpful because first of all, it's an act of mindfulness to write this stuff down because it's requiring you to put it in front of you and see it, which is different than having it hit you from inside your head. And so, that's helpful. They're seeing it as a thought process. And I think it also helps people come to terms with a certain reality about rumination that it's not a hundred percent compulsion in the sense that there's an element of rumination that's habitual. Your mind, like a puppy, is conditioned to respond automatically to certain things that it's been reinforced to do. And so, sometimes people just ruminate because they're alone or sitting in a particular chair. It's the same reason why people sometimes struggle with hair-pulling disorder, trichotillomania or skin picking. It's these environmental cues. And then the brain says, “Oh, we should do this now because this is what we do in this situation.” People give themselves a really hard time for ruminating because they've been told to stop, but they can't stop because they find themselves doing it.  So, what I try to help people understand is like, “Look, you can only control what you can control. And the more that you are aware of, the more you can control. So, this is where you can bring mindfulness into it.” So, maybe for this person, there's such a ruminator. They're constantly analyzing, figuring things out. It's part of their identity. They're very philosophical. They're not thinking of it as a compulsion, and many times they're not thinking of it at all. It's just happening. And then we increased their awareness, like, “Oh, okay. I got triggered. I left the building for a while. And then suddenly, I realized I was way down the rabbit hole, convinced myself that's something terrible. So, in that moment I realized I'm supposed to stop, but so much damage has been done because I just spent a really long time analyzing and compulsing and trying to figure it out.”  So, strategies that increase our awareness of what the mind is doing are extraordinarily helpful because imagine catching it five seconds into the process and being able to say, “Oh, I'm ruminating. Okay, I don't need to do that right now. I'm going to return my attention to what I was doing before I got distracted.” Kimberley: Right. I love the idea of this, the log for awareness, because a lot of people say, “Oh, maybe for half an hour a day.” Once they've logged it, they're like, “Wow, it's four hours a day.” I think it's helpful to actually recognize this, like how impactful it is on their life. So, I love that you're doing that piece. You can only control what you can control. What do you do with the stuff you can't control? Jon: Oh, you apply heavy doses of self-criticism until you hate yourself enough to never do it again. That's the other mental ritual that usually happens and people realize, “Oh, I've been ruminating,” and they're angry at themselves. “I should know better.” So, they're angry at themselves for something they didn't know they were doing, which is unfair. So, I use the term, I say, “label and abandon.” That's what you do with all mental rituals. The moment you see it, you give it a name and you drop it. You just drop it on the floor where you were, you don't finish it up real quick. You don't analyze too much about it and then drop it. You're just like, “Oh, I'm holding this thing I must not hold,” and you drop it. Label and abandon. What people tend to do is criticize then label, then criticize some more and then abandon. And the real problem with that is that the self-criticism is in and of itself another mental ritual. It's a strategy for reducing distress that's focused on increasing certainty about the content of the obsession. The obsession, in this case, is “I'm never going to get better.” Now I know I'm going to get better because I've told myself that I'm being fooled and that I'll never do that again. It's not true. But then you wash your hands. They aren't really clean either. So, none of our compulsions really work. Self-Compassion for Mental Compulsions  Kimberley: Doesn't have to make sense.  Jon: Yeah. So, I think bringing self-compassion in the moment to be able to recognize it and recognize the urge to self-criticize and really just say like, “Oh, I'm not going to do that. I caught myself ruminating. Well done.” Same thing we do when we meditate. Some people think that meditation has something to do with relaxation or something to do with controlling your mind. It's actually just a noticing exercise. Your mind wanders, you notice it. “Oh, look at that, I'm thinking.” Back to the breath. That's a good thing that you noticed that you wandered. Not, “Oh, I wandered, I can't focus. I'm bad at meditating.” So, it's really just changing the frame for how people are relating to what's going on inside.  One, eliminating self-criticism just makes life a lot easier. Two, eliminating the self-criticism and including that willingness to just label the thought pattern or the thought process and drop it right where it is. You can start to catch that earlier and earlier and earlier. So, you're reducing compulsions. And you'll see that the activity, the neutralizing, the figuring it out, the using your mental strength against yourself instead of in support of yourself, you could see how that's sending the signal to the brain. “Wait, this is very important. I need to keep pushing it to the forefront.” There's something to figure out here. This isn't a cold case in a box, on a shelf somewhere. This is an ongoing investigation and we have to figure it out. How do we know? Because they're still trying to figure it out. Kimberley: Right. How much do you think insight has to play here or how much of a role does it play? Jon: Insight plays a role in all forms of OCD. I mean, it plays a role in everything – insight into our relationships, insight into our career aspirations. I think one of the things I've noticed, and this is just anecdotal, is that the higher the distress and the poorer the distress regulation skills, often the lower the insight. Not necessarily the other way around. Some people have low insight and aren't particularly distressed by what's going on, but if the anxiety and the distress and the discomfort and disgust are so high that the brain goes into a brownout, I noticed that people switch from trying to get me to reassure them that their fears are untrue to trying to convince me that their fears are true. And to me, that represents an insight drop and I want to help them boost up their insight. And again, I think becoming more aware of your mental activity that is voluntary – I'm choosing to put my mind on this, I'm choosing to figure it out, it didn't just happen. But in this moment, I'm actually trying to complete the problem, the puzzle – becoming more aware that that's what you're doing, that's how you develop insight. And that actually helps with distress regulation. Kimberley: Right. Tell me, I love you're using this word. So, for someone who struggles with distress regulation, what kind of skills would you give a client or use for yourself? Jon: So, there are many different skills a person could use. And I hesitate to say, “Look, use this skill,” because sometimes if you're always relying on one skill and it's not working for you, you might be resistant to using a different skill. In DBT, they have something called tip skills. So, changing in-- drastic changes in temperature, intense exercise, progressive muscle relaxation, pace breathing. These are all ways of shifting your perspective. In a more global sense, I think the most important thing is dropping out of the intellectualization of what's happening and into the body. So, let's say the problem, the way you know that you're anxious is that your muscles are tense and there's heat in your body and your heart rate is elevated. But there are lots of circumstances in your life where your muscles would be tense and your heart rate will be up and you'll feel hot, and you might be exercising, for example.  So, that experience alone isn't threatening. It's that experience press plus the narrative that something bad is going to happen and it's because I'm triggered and it's because I can't handle the uncertainty and all this stuff. So, it's doing two things at once. It's dropping out of the thought process, which is fundamentally the same thing as labeling and abandoning the mental ritual, and then dropping into the body and saying, “What's happening now is my hands are sweaty,” and just paying attention to it. Okay, alright, sweaty hands. I can be with sweaty hands. Slowing things down and looking at things the way they are, which is not intellectual, as opposed to looking at things the way they could be, or should be, or might have been, which again is a mental ruminative process. Kimberley: Right. Do you find-- I have found recently actually with several clients that they have an obsession. They start to ruminate and then somewhere through there, it's hard to determine what's in control and what's not. So, we want to preface it with that. But things get really out of control once they start to catastrophize even more. So, would you call the catastrophization a mental rumination, or would you call it an intrusive thought? How would you conceptualize that with a client? They have the obsession, they start ruminating, and then they start going to the worst-case scenario and just staying there. Jon: Yeah. There's different ways to look at it. So, catastrophizing is predicting a negative future and assuming you can't cope with it, and it's a way of thinking about a situation. So, it's investing in a false project. The real project is there's something unknown about the future and it makes you uncomfortable and you don't like it. How do you deal with that? That's worth taking a look at. The false project is, my plane is going to crash and I need to figure out how to keep the plane from crashing. But that's how the OCD mind tends to work. So, one way of thinking about catastrophizing is it's a tone it's a way-- if you can step back far enough and be mindful of the fact that you're thinking, you can also be mindful of the fact that there is a way that you're thinking. And if the way that you're thinking is catastrophizing, you could say, “Yeah, that's catastrophizing. I don't need to do that right now.”  But I think to your point, it is also an act. It's something somebody is doing. It's like, I'm going to see this through to the end and the hopes that it doesn't end in catastrophe, but I'm also going to steer it into catastrophe because I just can't help myself. It's like a hot stove in your head that you just want to touch and you're like, “Ouch.” And in that case, I would say, yeah, that's a mental ritual. It's something that you're doing.  I like the concept of non-engagement responses. So, things that you can do to respond to the thought process that aren't engaging it directly, that are helping you launch off. Because like I said, before you label and abandon. But between the label and abandon, a lot of people feel like they need a little help. They need something to drive a wedge between them and the thought process. Simply dropping it just doesn't feel enough, or it's met with such distress because whenever you don't do a compulsion, it feels irresponsible, and they can't handle that distress. So, they need just a little boost.  What do we know about OCD? We know that the one thing you can't do effectively is defend yourself because then you're getting into an argument and you can't win an argument against somebody who doesn't care what the outcome of the argument is. The OCD just wants to argue. So, any argument, no matter how good it is, the OCD is like, “Great, now we're arguing again.” How to Manage Mental Compulsions  Kimberley: Yeah. “I got you.” Jon: Yeah. So, what are our options? What are our non-engagement response options? One, which I think is completely undersold, is ignoring it. Just ignoring it. Again, none of these you want to only focus on because they could all become compulsive. And then you're walking around going, “I'm ignoring it, I'm ignoring it.” And then you're just actually avoiding it. But it's completely okay to just choose not to take yourself seriously. You look at your email and it's things that you want. And then in there is a junk mail that just accidentally got filtered into the inbox instead of the spam box, and mostly what you do is ignore it. You don't even read the subject of it. You recognize that in the moment, it's spam and you move on as if it wasn't even there. Then there's being mindful of it. Mindful noting. Just acknowledging it. You take that extra beat to be like, “Oh yeah, there's that thought.” In act, they would call this diffusion. I'm having a thought that something terrible is going to happen. And then you're dropping it. So, you're just stepping back and be like, “Oh, I see what's going on here. Okay, cool. But I'm not going to respond to it.” And then as we get into more ERP territory, we also have the option of agreeing with the uncertainty that maybe, maybe not. “What do I know? Okay. Maybe the plane is going to crash. I can't be bothered with this.” But you have to do it with attitude because if you get too involved in the linguistics of it, then it's like, well, what's the potential that it'll happen? And you can't play that game, the probability game.  But it is objectively true that any statement that begins with the word “maybe” has something to it. Maybe in the middle of this call, this computer is going to explode or something like that. It would be very silly for me to worry about that, but you can't deny that the statement is true because it's possible. It's maybe. So, just acknowledging that, be like, “Okay, fine. Maybe.” And then dropping it the way you would if you had some thought that you didn't find triggering and yet was still objectively true.  And then the last one, which can be a lot of fun, can also be overdone, can also become compulsive, but if done well can make life a little bit more fun, is agreeing with the thought in an exaggerated humorous, sarcastic way. Just blowing it up. So, you're out doing the OCD. The OCD is very creative, but you're more creative than the OCD. Kimberley: Can you give me examples? Jon: Well, the OCD says your plane is going to crash. He said, your plane is going to crash into a school. Just be done with it, right? And that kind of shock where the bully is expecting you to defend yourself and instead, you just punched yourself in the face. He's like, “Yeah, you're weird. I'm not going to bother you anymore.” That's the relationship one wants with their OCD. Kimberley: That's true. I remember in a previous episode we had with, I think it was when you had brought out your team book about saying “Good one bro,” or “brah.” Jon: “Cool story, brah.” Yeah.  Kimberley: Cool story brah. And I've had many of my patients say that that was also really helpful, is there's a degree of attitude that goes with that, right? Jon: Yeah. And because again, it's just a glitch in the system that, of course, you're conditioned to respond to it like it's serious. But once you realize it is, once you get the hint that it's OCD, you have to shift out of that, “Oh, this is very important, very serious,” and into this like, “This is junk mail.” And if you actually look at your junk mail, none of it is serious. It sounds serious. It sounds like I just inherited a billion dollars from some prince in Nigeria. That sounds very important. I Kimberley: I get that email every day pretty much.  Jon: Yeah. But I look at it and immediately I know that it's not serious, even though the words in it sound very important.  Kimberley: Yeah. So, for somebody, I'm sitting in the mind of someone who has OCD and is listening right now, and I'm guessing, to those who are listening, you're nodding and “Yes, this is so helpful. This is so helpful.” And then we may finish the episode and then the realization that “This is really hard” comes. How much coaching, how much encouragement? How do you walk someone through treatment who is finding this incredibly difficult? Jon: I want to live in your mind. In my mind, let that same audience member is like, “This guy sucks.” Kimberley: My mind isn't so funny after we start the recording. So, you're cool. Jon: Who is this clown? Again, it's back to self-compassion. I'm sure people are tired of hearing about it, but it's simply more objective. It is hard. And if you're acting like it shouldn't be hard or you're doing something wrong as a function, it's hard because you're doing something wrong, you're really confused. How could that be? You could not have known better than to end up here. Everything that brought you here was some other thought or some other feeling, and you're just responding to your environment. The question is right now where you have some control, what are you going to do with your attention? Right now, you're noticing, “Oh man, it's really hard to resist mental rituals. It's hard to catch them. It's hard to let go of them. It's hard to deal with the anxiety of thinking because I didn't finish the mental ritual. Maybe I missed something and somebody's going to get hurt or something like that because I didn't figure it out.”  It is really hard. I don't think we should pretend that it's easy. We should acknowledge that it's hard. And then we should ask, “Okay, well, I made a decision that I'm going to do this. I'm going to treat my OCD and it looks like the treatment for OCD is I'm going to confront this uncertainty and not do compulsions. So, I have to figure out what to do with the fact that it's hard.” And then it's back to the body. How do you know that it's hard? “Well, I could feel the tension here and I could feel my heart rate and my breath.” So, let's work with that. How can I relate to that experience that's coming up in a way that's actually helpful? The thing that I've been thinking about a lot lately is this idea that the brain is quick to learn that something is dangerous. Something happens and it hurts, and your brain is like, “Yeah, let's not do that again.” And you might conclude later that that thing really wasn't as dangerous as you thought. And so, you want to re-engage with it. And you might find that's really hard to do, which is why exposure therapy is really hard because it's not like a one-and-done thing. You have to practice it because the brain is very slow to learn that something is safe, especially after it's been taught that it's dangerous.  But that's not a bad thing. You want a brain that does that. You don't want a brain that's like, “Yeah, well, I got bit by one dog, but who cares? Let's go back in the kennel.” You want a brain that's like, “Hold on. Are you sure about this?” That whole process of overcoming your fears, I think people, again, they're way too hard on themselves. It should take some time and it should be slow and sluggish. You look like you're getting better, and then you slip back a little bit, because it's really just your brain saying, “Listen, I'm here to keep you safe, and I learned that you weren't, and you are not following rules. So, I'm pulling you back.” That's where that is coming from. So, that's the hard feeling. That's the hard feeling right there. It's your brain really trying to get you to say, “No, go back to doing compulsions. Compulsions are keeping you safe.” You have to override that circuit and say, “I appreciate your help. But I think I know something that you don't. So, I'm going to keep doing this.” And then you can relate to that hard feeling with like, “Good, my brain works. My brain is slow and sluggish to change, but not totally resistant. Over time, I'm going to bend it to my will and it will eventually let go, and either say this isn't scary anymore or say like, ‘Well, it's still scary, but I'm not going to keep you from doing it.'” Kimberley: Right. I had a client at the beginning of COVID I think, and the biggest struggle-- and this was true for a lot of people, I think, is they would notice the thought, notice they're engaging in compulsions and drop it, to use your language, and then go, “Yay, I did that.” And then they would notice another thought in the next 12 seconds or half a second, and then they would go, “Okay, notice it and drop it.” And then they'd do it again. And by number 14, they're like, “No, this is--” or it would either be like, “This is too hard,” or “This isn't working.” So, I'm wondering if you could speak to-- we've talked about it being “too hard.” Can you speak to your ideas around “this isn't working”? Jon: Yeah. That's a painful thought. I think that a lot of times, people, when they say it isn't working, I ask them to be more specific because their definition of working often involves things like, “I was expecting not to have more intrusive thoughts,” or “I was expecting for those thoughts to not make me anxious.” And when you let go of those expectations, which isn't lowering them at all, it's just shifting them, asking, well, what is it that you really want to do in your limited time on this earth? You're offline for billions of years. Now you're online for, I don't know, 70 to 100 if you're lucky, and then you're offline again. So, this is the time you have. So, what do you want to do with your attention? And if it's going to be completely focused on your mental health, well, that's a bummer. You need to be able to yes, notice the thought, yes, notice the ritual, yes, drop them both, and then return to something.  In this crazy world we're living in now where we're just constantly surrounded by things to stimulate us and trigger us and make us think, we have lots of things to turn to that aren't necessarily healthy, but they're not all unhealthy either. So, it's not hard to turn your attention away from something and into a YouTube video or something like that. It is more challenging to shift your attention away from something scary and then bring it to the flavor of your tea. That's a mindfulness issue. That's all that is. Why is one thing easier than the other? It's because you don't think the flavor of your tea is important. Why? Because you're just not stimulated by the firing off of neurons in your tongue and the fact that we're alive on earth and that we've evolved over a million years to be able to make and taste tea. That's not as interesting as somebody dancing to a rap song. I get that, but it could be if you're paying a different kind of attention. So, it's just something to consider when you're like, “Well, I can't return to the present because it doesn't engage me in there.” Something to consider, what would really engage you and what is it about the present that you find so uninteresting? Maybe you should take another look. Kimberley: Right. For me, I'm just still so shocked that gravity works. Whenever I'm really stuck, I will admit, my rumination isn't so anxiety-based. I think it's more when I'm angry, I get into a ruminative place. We can do that similar behavior. So, when I'm feeling that, I have to just be like, “Okay, drop away from, that's not helpful. Be aware and then drop it.” And then for me, it's just like, “Wow, the gravity is pulling me down. It just keeps blowing my mind.” Jon: Yeah. That's probably a better use of your thought process than continuing to ruminate. But you bring up another point. I think this speaks more closely to your question about when people say it's not working. I'm probably going to go to OCD jail for this, but I think to some extent, when you get knocked off track by an OCD trigger, because you made me think of it when you're talking about anger. Like, someone says something to you and makes you angry and you're ruminating about it. But it's the same thing in OCD. Something happens. Something triggers you to think like, “I'm going to lose my job. I'm a terrible parent,” or something like that. You're just triggered. This isn't just like a little thought, you're like, “Oh, that's my OCD.” You can feel it in your bones. It got you. It really got you.  Now, you can put off ruminating as best you can, but you're going to be carrying that pain in your bones for a while. It could be an hour, could be a day, could be a couple of days. Now, if it's more than a couple of days, you have to take ownership of the fact that you are playing a big role in keeping this thing going and you need to change if you want different results. But if it's less than a couple of days and you have OCD, sometimes all you can do is just own it. “All right, I'm just going to be ruminating a lot right now.” And I'm not saying like, hey, sit there and really try to ruminate. But it's back to that thing before, like your brain is conditioned to take this seriously, and no matter how much you tell yourself it's not serious, your brain is going to do what your brain is going to do. And so, can you get your work done? Try to show up for your family, try to laugh when something funny happens on TV, even while there's this elephant sitting on your chest. And every second that you're not distracted, your mind is like, “Why did they say that? Why did I do that? What's going to happen next?” And really just step back from it and say like, “You know what, it's just going to have to be like this for now.” What I see people do a lot is really undersell how much that is living with OCD. “I'm not getting better.” I had this happen actually just earlier today. Somebody was telling me, walking me through this story that was just full of OCD minds that they kept stepping on and they kept exploding and they were distressed and everything. And yet, throughout the whole process, the only problem was they were having OCD and they were upset. But they weren't avoiding the situation. They weren't asking for reassurance and they weren't harming themselves in any way. They were just having a rough time because they just had their buttons pushed. It was frustrating because they wouldn't acknowledge that that is a kind of progress that is living with this disorder, which necessarily involves having symptoms.  I don't want people to get confused here and say like, “This is as good as it gets,” or “You should give up hope for getting better.” It's not about that. Part of getting better is really owning that this is how you show up in the world. You have your assets and your liabilities, and sometimes the best thing to do is just accept what's going on and work through it in a more self-compassionate way. Kimberley: Right. I really resonate with that too. I've had to practice that a lot lately too of accepting my humanness. Because I think there are times where you catch yourself and you're like, “No, I should be performing way up higher.” And then you're like, “No, let's just accept these next few days are going to be rough.” I like that. I think that that's actually more realistic in terms of what recovery really might look like. This is going to be a rough couple of days or a rough couple of hours or whatever it may be. Jon: Yeah. If you get punched hard enough in the stomach and knock the wind out of you, that takes a certain period of time before you catch your breath. And if you get punched in the OCD brain, it takes a certain amount of time before you catch your breath. So, hang on. It will get better. And again, this isn't me saying, just do as many compulsions as you want. It's just, you're going to do some, especially rumination and taking ownership of that, “Oh man, it's really loud in there. I've been ruminating a lot today. I'll just do the best I can.” That's going to be a better approach than like, “I'm going to sit and track every single thought and I'm going to burn it to the ground. I'm going to do it every five seconds.” Really, you're just going to end up ruminating more that way. Kimberley: Right. And probably beating yourself up more. Jon: Exactly. Kimberley: Right. Okay. I feel like that is an amazing place for us to end. Before we do, is there anything you feel like we've missed that you just want people to know before we finish up? Jon: I guess what's really important to know since we're talking about mental compulsions is that it's not separate from the rest of OCD and it's not harder to treat. People have this idea that, well, if you're a compulsive hand-washer, you can just stop washing your hands or you can just remove the sink or something like that. But if you're a compulsive ruminator about whether or not you're going to harm someone or you're a good person or any of that stuff, somehow that's harder to treat. I've not found this to be the case. Anecdotally, I haven't seen any evidence that this is really the case in terms of research. You might be harder on yourself in some ways, and that might make your symptoms seem more severe, but that's got nothing to do with how hard you are to treat or the likelihood of you getting better. Most physical rituals are really just efforts to get done what your mental rituals are not doing for you. So, many people who are doing physical rituals are also doing mental rituals and those who aren't doing physical rituals. Again, some people wash their hands. Some people wash their minds. Many people do both. A lot of this stuff, it has to do with like, “I expect my mind to be one way, and it's another.” And that thing that's making it another is a contaminant, “I hate it and I want to go away and I'm going to try to get it to go away.” And that's how this disorder works. Kimberley: Right. It's really, really wonderful advice. I think that it's actually really great that you covered that because I think a lot of people ask that question of, does that mean that I'm going to only have half the recovery of someone who does physical compulsions or just Googles or just seeks reassurance? So, I think it's really important. Do you feel like someone can overcome OCD if their predominant compulsion is mental? Jon: Absolutely. They may even have assets that they are unaware of that makes them even more treatable. I mean, only one way to find out. Kimberley: Yeah. I'm so grateful to you. Thank you for coming on. This is just filling my heart so much. Thank you. Jon: Thank you. I always love speaking with you. Kimberley: Do you want to share where people can find you and all your amazing books and what you're doing? Jon: My hub is OCDBaltimore.com. That's the website for the Center for OCD and Anxiety at Sheppard Pratt, and also the OCD program at The Retreat at Sheppard Pratt. And I'm on Instagram at OCDBaltimore, Twitter at OCDBaltimore. I don't know what my Facebook page is, but it's out there somewhere. I'm not hard to find. Falling behind a little bit on my meme game, I haven't found anything quite funny or inspiring enough. I think I've toured through all of my favorite movies and TV shows. And so, I'm waiting for some show that I'm into to inspire me. But someone asked me the other day, “Wait, you stopped with the memes.” Kimberley: They're like, nothing's funny anymore. Jon: I try not to get into that headspace. Sometimes I do think that way, but yeah, the memes find me. I don't find them. Kimberley: I love it. And your books are all on Amazon or wherever you can buy books, I'm imagining. Jon: Yes. The OCD Workbook For Teens is my most recent one and the second edition of the Mindfulness Workbook for OCD is also a relatively recent one. Kimberley: Amazing. You're amazing. Thank you so much. Jon: Thank you.