Podcasts about real talk podcast

This one's straight from the heart. In this episode, I get real about what it actually means to be a parent in today's world. We're talking about the sleepless nights, the moments we snap, the guilt we carry, and the love that drives it all. This isn't just for parents—it's for anyone who's ever been someone's child. And let's be honest... that's all of us. I open up about raising four daughters across two generations, how I've evolved as a father, and what I've learned (sometimes the hard way) about presence, emotional safety, and healing generational patterns. I'll share the moments I've failed, the moments I've grown, and what I pray my kids will remember about me. If you're struggling with your kids, with your own parents, or just trying to figure this whole thing out—this one's for you.

We don't talk about this enough: sometimes your friends don't know how to support you. It's not always about jealousy or betrayal—sometimes they're simply unequipped, emotionally unavailable, or unaware of what you really need. In this episode, Dr. Gabe unpacks why even your “day ones” can miss your emotional needs and what it means when friends grow at different paces.If you've ever felt unseen, unsupported, or lowkey disappointed by the people closest to you—this conversation is for you.Need relationship advice? Text Dr. Gabe. Text bandwidth to 94000 to stay up-to-date on all things Bandwidth.Gabriel Powell MerchUse the code BAND10 for 10% off.WebsiteSupport the Bandwidth PodcastCash App $bandwidthpodcastConnect with Bandwidth Facebook | Instagram | TikTok | Twitter Connect with Dr. GabeInstagram | YouTube | WebsiteIf you are interested in advertising on this podcast or having Dr. Gabe as a guest on your Podcast, Radio Show, or TV Show, reach out to info@gabrielpowell.co

Welcome to Real Talk Podcast by self-love creator - Niki Patton. in this weeks episode we're talking all about being the most confident version of you! I feel like we're constantly trying to change ourselves without realizing that we hold the value the way we are!

This week on This RomCom Life, we're talking breath, boundaries, and… bar tabs? (Yes, really.)Breath:We dive into the science-backed benefits of meditation — not just for your mind, but for your relationships. I open up about my own journey from meditation skeptic to full-on believer, how it's helped me grow emotionally, and why Dan says it's changed our marriage in ways neither of us expected. Plus, I share how it's fueling my new life coaching work and what it looks like to create calm in the chaos. Boundaries:We explore how the 5-5-5 method (our favorite relationship tool) helps us talk through hard things — without spiraling into arguments. Whether you're dating someone new or 20 years in, this simple technique can totally shift how you connect.Bonding:Dan shares takeaways from a recent father-son trip — the laughs, the awkward silences, and the unexpected connection moments that made it all worth it.Big Feelings:We also open up about the rise in antisemitism, how it's impacting us as a Jewish family, and the importance of staying honest and grounded as partners and parents through painful conversations.Bar Tabs:Finally, we wrap with a fun (and kinda mind-blowing) trend: Gen Z isn't opening tabs at bars. Is it budgeting? Is it dating politics? Is it emotional boundaries in drink form? We've got thoughts — and some nostalgic Gen X takes. Meditation and relationships, couple communication tips, parenting and marriage podcast, Gen Z dating trends, 5-5-5 method, antisemitism and identity, father-son bonding, real-life love stories, relationship advice podcast, modern love podcast

Why does rejection hurt so bad—and how do you heal when the people, jobs, or dreams you wanted don't want you back?In this powerful motivational speech and episode, Reginald D answers a listener's raw and relatable question: “How do I deal with rejection and disappointment in my life?” Whether you've been ghosted, overlooked, passed up, or left wondering “why not me?”—this episode is for you.Rejection cuts deep because we tie our worth to outcomes. But in this episode, Reginald D unpacks why that “no” might be your divine setup, not a setback. Through soul-stirring storytelling, personal testimony, and biblical truth, you'll learn how to process disappointment, release the pain, and rise stronger than before.From closed doors to God's redirection, this is more than a message—it's a blueprint for breakthrough.What You'll Gain:Clarity on why rejection hurts and how to separate your worth from outcomesA step-by-step strategy to process disappointment in a healthy, faith-filled wayA transformational challenge to help you revisit and revive the dreams rejection tried to buryPress play to shift your mindset, rediscover your purpose, and turn rejection into the reason you rise.Send your questions to: Reginald D - rsherman@realtalkwithreginaldd.comFREE EBOOK: Rejection Isn't the End:  How to Turn Disappointment Into Destiny By Reginald DThis isn't just another self-help book. Rejection Isn't the End is a faith-filled guide for anyone who's ever felt overlooked, dismissed, or broken by life's “no's.” Inside, I share real stories, biblical truths, and practical tools to help you heal, reclaim your power, and rediscover the purpose God planted in you. Whether it was a closed door, a broken relationship, or a delayed dream—this free eBook will remind you: your rejection was not the end. It was the setup for your comeback. Download your free copy now and start rising today.Click Link to receive your free ebook: https://real-talk-with-reginald-d.kit.com/0a2dc8525bhow to deal with rejection, Christian encouragement podcast, disappointment and faith, healing from rejection, overcoming setbacks, real talk podcast, rejection to redirection, podcast for the brokenhearted, motivational podcast faith, God's plan and rejection, purpose after painSend us a textSupport the showFor daily motivation and inspiration, subscribe and follow Real Talk With Reginald D on social media:Instagram: realtalkwithreginaldd TikTok: @realtalkregd Youtube: @realtalkwithreginald Facebook: realtalkwithreginaldd Twitter Real Talk With Reginald D (@realtalkRegD) / TwitterWebsite: Real Talk With Reginald D https://www.realtalkwithreginaldd.com Real Talk With Reginald D - Merchandise

What if the only thing standing between you and the life you desire… are you running from it?In this powerful motivational speech, Reginald D confronts one of the most overlooked struggles holding people back: running from the very dreams they were born to pursue. If you've ever let fear, failure, or the opinions of others convince you that your desires weren't meant for you, this motivational episode is your wake-up call.Reginald D dives deep into how our past pain, setbacks, and disappointments fuel self-sabotage—and how to break free from the cycle of running. From personal reflections to bold truths, this is the episode that challenges you to stop playing small and start living fully. Your future is waiting—will you stop running long enough to claim it?Three Key Benefits Learn how to break free from fear-based hesitation and finally pursue the desires of your heartUnderstand the link between pain, strength, and your calling—and how past hardships were preparing youGain empowering tools to stop running from your purpose and start rewriting your life story with confidencePress play now and listen to Reginald D's motivational speech and discover why your breakthrough starts the moment you stop running and start believing.stop running from dreams, how to pursue your dreams, fear of failure podcast, motivational speaker podcast, faith and dreams, personal growth podcast, overcoming setbacks, live your purpose, rewrite your story, real talk podcast, finding your calling, fear and self-doubt, spiritual motivationSend us a textSupport the showFor daily motivation and inspiration, subscribe and follow Real Talk With Reginald D on social media:Instagram: realtalkwithreginaldd TikTok: @realtalkregd Youtube: @realtalkwithreginald Facebook: realtalkwithreginaldd Twitter Real Talk With Reginald D (@realtalkRegD) / TwitterWebsite: Real Talk With Reginald D https://www.realtalkwithreginaldd.com Real Talk With Reginald D - Merchandise

Manche Menschen scheitern nicht wegen ihrer Umstände – sie scheitern an ihrem Denken. In dieser Folge entlarve ich 3 mentale Denkfehler, die dir jeden Tag Erfolg, Selbstwert und Momentum klauen – ohne dass du es überhaupt merkst. Wenn du endlich liefern willst, statt ständig im Kopf zu hängen – dann hör dir das an. Und handle danach. Klar. Direkt.

In this bold and unapologetic debut of a brand-new uncensored series within The David Adam Kurz Show, David is joined by sharp-minded co-hosts Charlie Suarez and Marcos Cabral to tackle today's most controversial topics — politics, religion, war, censorship, American history, and child labor laws — with brutal honesty and undeniable humor. From SignalGate and government chat leaks to the debate around Trump's executive order on restoring truth in the Smithsonian, nothing is off-limits.

In this refreshingly real and hilariously heartfelt episode of The Conscious Collaboration Podcast, Lisa and Emily reunite for a candid duo-style check-in. From dealing with contract debacles and tax season chaos to energetic cycles and cosmic alignment, they invite listeners into the beautifully messy blend of practical life and spiritual perspective.✨ The conversation flows through Mercury retrograde lessons, entrepreneurial frustrations, and how to find magic amidst the mundane. ✨ They pull a potent I Ching card — Treading Carefully — and reflect on navigating life's “sleeping tigers” with grace and awareness. ✨ Plus, you'll hear about the Spaghetti Model of Manifestation, a unique reminder to stay energetically aligned with what you're calling in.Whether you're knee-deep in admin work, feeling off-cycle, or just craving an authentic energetic reset, this one's a grounding, giggle-worthy invitation to keep moving — gently and intentionally — toward your purpose.Thank you for being a part of our Conscious Collaboration Clubhouse

Email: podcast@247realtalk.netWebsite: https://247-real-talk.onpodium.com/https://www.youtube.com/@247realtalkpodcast/videoshttps://247-real-talk-podcast.printify.me/productshttps://www.youtube.com/@lifestylebymolesia

Danielle Freitag, in this episode of Real Talk Podcast, brings on Michael De Jong to discuss the intersection of faith and politics in today's challenging climate. Reflecting on recent events, including worship gatherings in Washington, D.C., Michael shares insights on the importance of Christians engaging in societal issues, including political discourse, while prioritizing a Biblical worldview. They discuss how the Church must stand firm against divisive rhetoric, advocate for life, and support candidates whose policies align with Christian values. The conversation encourages listeners to ground themselves in Christ above all, as the Church remains a light in challenging times and a beacon for truth and restoration.Real Talk with Danielle and Jenna, is an Action169 podcast Action169.com

In this episode, Mike and Ephraim sit down with Emmy-award-winning journalist, author, podcaster and activist Jemele Hill for a candid conversation about her most defining moments. Jemele starts out talking about her origin story, why she will always stand 10 toes behind her hometown of Detroit and her inspiration behind becoming a journalist. Then, Jemele gives her keys to crafting the perfect social media clapbacks. She also shares a shocking story about receiving hate mail that caught the FBIs attention. As her friend and colleague for 20 years, Mike asks Jemele about how mental health has impacted her personal and professional career. She reveals her biggest addiction that keeps her grounded—golf. Jemele divulges to Ephraim her decision to take her husband's last name. Plus, in this week's Unfiltered segment, Jemele tells the story about how leaving ESPN on her terms catapulted her to the next level of her career. You can listen to new episodes of DTBT every Thursday at 6 a.m. EST on iHeart or wherever you listen to podcasts.  . . . Follow Done There, Been That podcast on Social Media for all the best moments from the show:  IG: @InflectionEnt X: @InflectionEnt  YouTube: @DoneThereBeenThatSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In the first episode of the new installment of Done There, Been That, longtime friends Mike Hill and Ephraim Salaam get real about their 20-year bond and how relationships have shaped the men they are today. Mike opens up about his journey through therapy, sharing how healing from past traumas has impacted his relationships and parenting, including an emotional reflection on the challenges he's faced with his daughters. Ephraim recalls the moment he introduced Mike to Real Housewives of Atlanta star Cynthia Bailey and shares his own romantic tale of flying across the world to watch his wife perform at a Beyoncé concert. With candid discussions on masculine toxicity, marriage, and relationship dealbreakers, this episode is filled with insights, personal stories, and hard-earned wisdom. Watch the full video episode on the Inflection Network channel on YouTube.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Let's chat about it. We are at a pivotal place in The Collective. A moment of time where all the things we have buried deep within us are coming up to be acknowledged, looked at and dealt with. Our insecurities… Our doubts…. Our shame… (Oh that one hits) And everything is coming up to be healed. Some of us see and are moving with itSome of us are completely avoiding itSome of are pretending like it's not happeningWherever you are, this podcast is an eye opening energy for you to lean in. This could be the moment that you choose to change. That you choose to move and maneuver. I'm not sure… But I know… everyday is a choice.  Xo Enjoy Colleen Lindberg is a Soul Mission Activator and Spiritual Guide Her mission on earth is to dismantle the conformity infrastructures holding us back, so people can fully embody their potency and power. She believes that each soul mission's is a unique rhythm that is meant to ripple through the world. Her programs, teachings and channeling abilities , guide Light Warriors into more embodiment into their light, owning their unique tools and vibration. She speaks multiple light languages, works with deities like Thoth and the Emerald Tablets, Merlin and Golden Avalon Energy, Goddesses of Egypt, The Archangels, especially Metatron and the Record Keepers of the Akashics. Her potency in transmissions has been known to shift energy in real time, collapsing time line narratives and activating spiritual gifts. Her light language spiritual album is launching this yearYou can find her on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thecolleenlindberg/You can find her on YouTube as well https://www.youtube.com/@ColleenLindbergAnd some of her current offers can be found here: https://linktr.ee/lightpreneursThe Spiritual Warriors Group on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/share/cVZwQMUkYRW8joMV/?mibextid=K35XfP

Discover Faith, Wellness, and Healing on The Very Cari PodcastThe Very Cari Podcast emerges from Cari's personal journey through diet trauma and her deep relationship with God. Cari masterfully intertwines faith, wellness, and healing, creating a warm and safe environment filled with humor and genuine conversation. With a remarkable personal achievement of losing over 100 lbs, Cari empathetically connects with anyone navigating diet trauma and their spiritual journey. Tune in to The Very Cari Podcast for inspiring stories, insights into faith, and practical tips for overall wellness.Connect with Cari:Instagram: instagram.com/carithompsonrnFacebook: www.facebook.com/cari.ayres.3Website: VeryCariPodcast.com

Discover Faith, Wellness, and Healing on The Very Cari PodcastThe Very Cari Podcast emerges from Cari's personal journey through diet trauma and her deep relationship with God. Cari masterfully intertwines faith, wellness, and healing, creating a warm and safe environment filled with humor and genuine conversation. With a remarkable personal achievement of losing over 100 lbs, Cari empathetically connects with anyone navigating diet trauma and their spiritual journey. Tune in to The Very Cari Podcast for inspiring stories, insights into faith, and practical tips for overall wellness.Verses:Luke 19:28-32 - 28 After telling this story, Jesus went on toward Jerusalem, walking ahead of his disciples. 29 As he came to the towns of Bethphage and Bethany on the Mount of Olives, he sent two disciples ahead. 30 “Go into that village over there,” he told them. “As you enter it, you will see a young donkey tied there that no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 31 If anyone asks, ‘Why are you untying that colt?' just say, ‘The Lord needs it.'”  32 So they went and found the colt, just as Jesus had said.Connect with Cari:Instagram: instagram.com/carithompsonrnFacebook: www.facebook.com/cari.ayres.3Website: VeryCariPodcast.com

Discover Faith, Wellness, and Healing on The Very Cari PodcastThe Very Cari Podcast emerges from Cari's personal journey through diet trauma and her deep relationship with God. Cari masterfully intertwines faith, wellness, and healing, creating a warm and safe environment filled with humor and genuine conversation. With a remarkable personal achievement of losing over 100 lbs, Cari empathetically connects with anyone navigating diet trauma and their spiritual journey. Tune in to The Very Cari Podcast for inspiring stories, insights into faith, and practical tips for overall wellness.Connectt with Cari:Instagram: instagram.com/carithompsonrnFacebook: www.facebook.com/cari.ayres.3Website: VeryCariPodcast.com

Discover Faith, Wellness, and Healing on The Very Cari PodcastThe Very Cari Podcast emerges from Cari's personal journey through diet trauma and her deep relationship with God. Cari masterfully intertwines faith, wellness, and healing, creating a warm and safe environment filled with humor and genuine conversation. With a remarkable personal achievement of losing over 100 lbs, Cari empathetically connects with anyone navigating diet trauma and their spiritual journey. Tune in to The Very Cari Podcast for inspiring stories, insights into faith, and practical tips for overall wellness.Connect with Cari:Instagram: instagram.com/carithompsonrnFacebook: www.facebook.com/cari.ayres.3Website: VeryCariPodcast.com

Discover Faith, Wellness, and Healing on The Very Cari PodcastThe Very Cari Podcast emerges from Cari's personal journey through diet trauma and her deep relationship with God. Cari masterfully intertwines faith, wellness, and healing, creating a warm and safe environment filled with humor and genuine conversation. With a remarkable personal achievement of losing over 100 lbs, Cari empathetically connects with anyone navigating diet trauma and their spiritual journey. Tune in to The Very Cari Podcast for inspiring stories, insights into faith, and practical tips for overall wellness.Connect with Cari:Instagram: instagram.com/carithompsonrnFacebook: www.facebook.com/cari.ayres.3Website: VeryCariPodcast.com

Discover Faith, Wellness, and Healing on The Very Cari PodcastThe Very Cari Podcast emerges from Cari's personal journey through diet trauma and her deep relationship with God. Cari masterfully intertwines faith, wellness, and healing, creating a warm and safe environment filled with humor and genuine conversation. With a remarkable personal achievement of losing over 100 lbs, Cari empathetically connects with anyone navigating diet trauma and their spiritual journey. Tune in to The Very Cari Podcast for inspiring stories, insights into faith, and practical tips for overall wellness.Connect with Cari:Instagram: instagram.com/carithompsonrnFacebook: www.facebook.com/cari.ayres.3Website: VeryCariPodcast.com

Discover Faith, Wellness, and Healing on The Very Cari PodcastThe Very Cari Podcast emerges from Cari's personal journey through diet trauma and her deep relationship with God. Cari masterfully intertwines faith, wellness, and healing, creating a warm and safe environment filled with humor and genuine conversation. With a remarkable personal achievement of losing over 100 lbs, Cari empathetically connects with anyone navigating diet trauma and their spiritual journey. Tune in to The Very Cari Podcast for inspiring stories, insights into faith, and practical tips for overall wellness.Connect with Cari:Instagram: instagram.com/carithompsonrnFacebook: www.facebook.com/cari.ayres.3Website: VeryCariPodcast.com

Discover Faith, Wellness, and Healing on The Very Cari PodcastThe Very Cari Podcast emerges from Cari's personal journey through diet trauma and her deep relationship with God. Cari masterfully intertwines faith, wellness, and healing, creating a warm and safe environment filled with humor and genuine conversation. With a remarkable personal achievement of losing over 100 lbs, Cari empathetically connects with anyone navigating diet trauma and their spiritual journey. Tune in to The Very Cari Podcast for inspiring stories, insights into faith, and practical tips for overall wellness.Connect with Cari:Instagram: instagram.com/carithompsonrnFacebook: www.facebook.com/cari.ayres.3Website: VeryCariPodcast.com

Email: podcast@247realtalk.netWebsite: https://247-real-talk.onpodium.com/https://www.youtube.com/@247realtalkpodcast/videoshttps://247-real-talk-podcast.printify.me/productshttps://www.youtube.com/@lifestylebymolesia

It's a Spring Break Weekend Podclash! Bakotunes meets The Real Talk Podcast! What's in store this time you ask? My special guest is Bakersfield singer-songwriter, Hunnie! It's been over two years since our last interview and we do a lot of catching up, plus share new music! Also joining us in studio is Cesareo Garasa, entertainment columnist for The Bakersfield Californian and my bandmate in Mento Buru. Follow Bakotunes and The Real Talk Podcast and add them to your week podcast playlist! Catch Real Talk Friday's on terrestrial and streaming radio! Thanks for listening! Sponsored by Chain Cohn Clark - Kern County's leading accident, injury, and workers' compensation law firm. Subscribe to Bakotunes at all podcast outlets and follow our socials!Instagram / More LinksContact: mattomunoz@gmail.com

It's a St. Paddy's Weekend Podclash! Bakotunes meets The Real Talk Podcast! What's in store you ask? Guest Cesareo Garasa is an entertainment columnist for The Bakersfield Californian and my bandmate in Mento Buru. This week we'll be talking 2024 Oscars Wrap, St. Patrick's Day fun and the Leprechaun horror film series, local St. Paddy's weekend events plus mindless geek banter you will enjoy. PLUS A SPECIAL SECRET MUSICAL TREAT YOU GOTTA LISTEN FOR! Check out Cesareo's Lowdown column at ⁠⁠⁠Bakersfield.com⁠⁠⁠ (Eye Street section). Follow Bakotunes and The Real Talk Podcast and add them to your week podcast playlist! Catch Real Talk Friday's on terrestrial and streaming radio! Thanks for listening! Sponsored by Chain Cohn Clark - Kern County's leading accident, injury, and workers' compensation law firm. Subscribe to Bakotunes at all podcast outlets and follow our socials!Instagram / More LinksContact: mattomunoz@gmail.com

On this episode of Real Talk, Susan and Kristina are joined by Dr. Christopher Thuber for an insider's guide to summer camp success.     Dr. Thurber has dedicated his professional life to improving how trusted adults nurture others and to enhancing the lives of adventurous youth. A graduate of Harvard and UCLA, Dr. Thurber has served as a psychologist and instructor at Phillips Exeter Academy since 1999. Over the past 25 years, he has been invited to lead workshops on five continents.   His best-selling family resource, The Summer Camp Handbook, was recently translated into Mandarin to help launch the youth camping movement in China. And his most recent book, The Unlikely Art of Parental Pressure, was described by The Atlantic as “a tour de force” and “the rare parenting book that respects both parents and children.”   Dr. Thurber's research and writing have focused on homesickness prevention and healthy parenting, especially in the domains of pressure and learning from mistakes.     LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW: https://drchristhurber.com/  https://www.exeter.edu/faculty/christopher-austin-thurber  https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Your-Kid-Parents-Todays/dp/1637743807   SHOW NOTES:   Introduction and the importance of planning for children's summer camp (00:21) Introduction of Dr. Christopher Thurber (00:57) Ideal age for children to start attending overnight summer camps (1:53) Benefits of longer stays at camps and how they affect homesickness and personal growth (3:07) Insights into the positive impacts of summer camps on children's social skills and self-confidence (5:54) Choosing the right summer camp and what to look for (7:34) The role of camp advisors and the best time to start looking for summer camps (9:19) Indicators of a camp's quality (10:14) Tips on how to vet summer camps (11:46) Addressing homesickness and how to prepare your child for camp experiences (14:32) Impact of technology and social media on children's camp experiences (17:00) Guidance on managing communication with children at camp (19:19) Advice for parents on conversations to have with their children before sending them to camp for the first time (22:55) Importance of not making 'pickup deals' with children and fostering independence (24:24) Tips for selecting the right camp (26:00) Conclusion with final advice for parents on preparing for the camp season and fostering a positive experience for their children (28:00)   TRANSCRIPT: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Suler. We are full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversation. Susan Stone: Kristina, believe it or not, even though we're looking outside and there's a lot of snow out there, yuck. Did you know what time it is? Kristina Supler: Well, umm, if I'm thinking about what we're going to talk about today, I'm gonna guess that we're in the time of year that despite the snow outside, we have to start planning for our children's summers. Susan Stone: And especially summer camp. Believe it or not, if you want your child to go to one of the more, uh, popular summer camps, now is the time that you would register. And it's hard to think about it because like Santa Claus hasn't even come down that shoe. Kristina Supler: I know, and I'm particularly excited to speak with today's guest because I'm in, in my own family, wrestling with the idea of sending my son off to camp. And so this is, I'm really looking forward to today's talk. Susan Stone: We might learn a little something on real talk. Why don't you introduce our guests? Kristina Supler: Sure. Today we are joined by Dr. Chris Thurber, who has dedicated his professional life to improving how adults nurture others and enhance the lives of youth. A graduate of Harvard and UCLA, Dr. Thurber has served as a psychologist and instructor at Phillips Exeter Academy since 1999. Susan Stone: I've heard of it. Kristina Supler: Sure, he's written some books. His best-selling family resource is the Summer Camp Handbook, which has been translated into Mandarin. Believe it or not, and more recently, he has authored The Unlikely Art of Parental Pressure, which was described by the Atlantic as, “the rare parenting book that respects both parents and children”. Dr. Thurber's research and writing have focused on homesickness prevention, healthy parenting and helping children learn from mistakes. So Doctor Thurber, thanks for joining us today. Dr. Chris Thurber: Thanks for having me as a guest. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Susan Stone: So it's so funny. I was thinking about summer camp and I still remember that when my oldest, whose birthday it is today, happy birthday, Alex. But when she was in 3rd grade, I went on a field trip to Maine with her and we looked at camps together. Kristina Supler: I can only imagine. Ohh camp touring. What a life. Susan Stone: Yeah, it was great. We had the best bonding time, but the question is for you. I chose for to be a rising 4th grader as a time to go to camp. We looked at camps when she was a rising 3rd grader. In your professional opinion, what is the best time to send students away for a summer camp and experience? And I just have a second part to that question. I chose a camp where I just threw my kid in for seven weeks because I was told on from a well-known Cleveland area psychologist that they do better with a longer stint because when you do a shorter stint, just as you're getting over homesickness, you're yanking them away. Thoughts? Dr. Chris Thurber: Well, in terms of what age a child should be at overnight summer camp and I, I do think that like any experience overnight timer camp is not for everyone. But I would say that in my experience as a parent, as a researcher, as a psychologist, there's probably a camp for everyone. And I think it's a perfect complement to the traditional classroom setting. So a way of boosting kids social and emotional learning, a way of increasing their social skills, their confidence, their sense of adventure. And there's wonderful research to support all of my life experience and anecdotal evidence. The age at which a young person might go to overnight camp for the first time depends a lot on their previous life experiences and a little bit on their personality, and I think the way I would answer that question is not by giving you a number like 7 years old or 8 years old or 9 years old. But I could say that most overnight camps uh would take children as young as seven or eight. So that tells you something about 150 years of trial and error has landed us at that age, but for particular child, it really is gonna depend on that parent or primary caregiver looking carefully at that child's readiness, which depends a lot on what previous experience that child has had away from home. I don't know for Alex, but I would imagine that she had spent overnight at a friend's house, or she'd been at her grandparents house without you there for a couple of days. And that's the perfect sort of preparation for multiple weeks at an overnight camp. Susan Stone: And do you have a thought about the second part of my question, 4 weeks versus 7 weeks or maybe even shorter depending on the camp? Dr. Chris Thurber: Well, I haven't in my experience noticed a difference in the factor that your friend cited, which is intensity of homesickness. In fact, this was what I wrote my dissertation on was homesickness and have followed the research that's been done since then, quite closely enough to know that there isn't a difference in, say, homesickness intensity between someone who's staying at camp for two weeks versus 4 weeks versus 7 weeks. That again, I would say your friend was right in that longer stays and I would say four weeks or more result in a more immersive experience for young people and that shorter stays just a few days are a good taste of what? Overnight camp is like, but aren't gonna create the kind of social bonds and result in the sort of self-reliance and you know, willingness to try new things that will happen with a longer stay. Susan Stone: That's exactly what I learned at that time. That you'd really takes a good chunk of time like 4 weeks as the minimum before you can really develop the friendships, develop leader styles, or even reinvent yourself. You could be that nerd at school and that fabulous person at camp. It's a chance of really defining yourself. Kristina Supler: Sounds like a good movie. Dr. Chris Thurber: It is very cool in that way. Well, it's a good movie and an even better experience. It's one we, you know, we underestimate sometimes. I think the social pressures that young people feel in elementary school even and you mentioned the unlikely art of parental pressure that I wrote with Hank Weissinger. We took a look at a lot of the research that's been done and were surprised ourselves to see how pernicious the effects of unhealthy pressure are for even elementary school age children and a lot of it is about pressure to conform, conform to dress, conform to preferences for favorite TV shows and how you present yourself online. So there are a lot of different domains of conformity, all of which happily evaporate at the best camps, and I think that that sort of reinventing yourself and boost in self-confidence can happen in as little as two weeks. I would also agree with you that a longer stay like 4 or 7 is going to strengthen that young person's confidence. Kristina Supler: Dr. Thurber, I'm curious to hear your thoughts for our listeners out there, parents with the child, let's just say in grade school age is irrelevant, but a child who's maybe only slept at grandparent's house or has had maybe one or two sleepovers with a friend family member, whomever, what advice would you give those parents for sort of the building blocks to help ease your child into this experience to go away from home? Dr. Chris Thurber: To have more of those, I mean, and we were at deficit because of having to quarantine many of us during the pandemic. So we have some catching up to do in providing healthy experiences for kids away from home. And just as you suggested in your question a day here a night here a couple days expanding to you know, two or three days, those sorts of experiences are what give a young person confidence in their ability to spend time away from home without their primary caregiver or caregivers and they can alert you as a parent to any sort of anxieties that need to be sorted out prior to a camp stay. Susan Stone: What should parents look for in and overnight camp? Kristina Supler: Hmm. That's a good question because no camp is gonna say yeah, send your kid here. We're OK. I mean, every camp has a long list of superlatives. Best, most fun. Exciting. You name it. You know, everyone's smiling on on the video on the website. What do you what should parents look for when vetting camps? Dr. Chris Thurber: You guys are cracking me up and it's such a great question. First of all, can I just say how happy I am that we're recording this in late November and hopefully it'll be provided to your listeners soon because as you said in the opener, this is the time. This is the time uh. I get asked to do podcasts all the time in May, right? Kristina Supler: But well, I know this was and this was Susan's idea, this idea, an experienced camp mom sender offer. Dr. Chris Thurber: Well, may all moms and dads be as pression as Susan and Kristina? Seriously, it's it's, you know, this is the time to be thinking about it. This is the time, as Christina said, to be preparing with practice time away from home and what you should look for in a summer camp is a great question because and you were joking about it, you go into a camp's website. Remember that that's marketing, and I'm not deriding camps or their websites, and it's important that they have them and there's great information on them. But remember, it's marketing and the the camps are gonna look similar. I mean, you can distinguish the all boys camps from the all girls camps, from the all gender camps, from the Coed camps and the ones that have horseback riding from the ones that don't have horseback riding. And that is information that you can call from a website, but that's not telling you anything about the quality. So I would say three things that I think parents need to look for and you have listeners all around the world, but let's bring it down to North America. In Canada, there are provincial camp associations like for Ontario and for British Columbia, et cetera. In the United States, we have the American Camp Association. These are the accrediting bodies for camps, and it doesn't guarantee that a particular camp is a great match for your kid. But these associations are a first step that can't that parents should look for is the camp accredited to be an operation? It needs to be certified by the Board of Health in most states, so you can assume that that's the case, but you can ask to see their, you know, Board of Health cert. Then I would say by whom are you accredited knowing that accreditation happens once every few years and it is a way of saying at the time this camp was visited by trained peers and the camp world it it met these minimum criteria? Or maybe exceeded them then is where it gets interesting, and that's why Jon Malinowski and I wrote the Summer Camp Handbook, because there are lots of accredited camps and some of them I wouldn't ever send my own child to and some of them I would be glad to. So I think what you need to look for is first and foremost after it's passed Board of Health and accreditation. Is this a place where there's a good deal of tenure among the staff now? Potentially, the director who was there for 30 years, just retired, and so the new directors only been there for a couple of years. But you wanna look over time? What's the average tenure of the director? What is the average tenure for the other senior staff, assistant directors, program directors, waterfront directors and how long did the staff who work there generally work there, and that tenure tells you a lot about the loyalty and the spirit and the consistency that will exist at that camp, which I think are all important contributors to a young person having a really positive experience. Next is where do they get their staff and how do they train them? And this is really my wheelhouse because yeah. Susan Stone: I remember that because the camp I had sent my children to through a lot of counselors that they receive from Australia and England, and I remember because they made my kids eat Vegemite and they thought that was hilarious, but they were great. They really had some really fun and they were learning the fun, cute accents and they love it and I don't know if you agree with this, but I really like that the camp we ended up selecting had a therapist and staff to deal with the issues and it really was quite helpful. Dr. Chris Thurber: Yeah, I endorsed that wholeheartedly. And I think that people in that position, a mental health professional who's part of a camp, often also participate in the staff training. So as I was saying, where the staff from where they how are they hired? How are they trained that that's really crucial, right? I mean, the centerpiece of the camp experience is gonna be your child's new relationship with this young adult surrogate caregiver. Will they make peer friends? Yes, of course. But who influences the experience more than anyone else are the young adult leaders. And so you wanna know as much as you can about them. Kristina Supler: That's a really great piece of advice for parents out there listening to this though, to look at the tenure of staff and employees, how many come back year after year because that speaks volumes for the nature of the experience, happy staff then hopefully translates to happy campers. So I love that. Dr. Chris Thurber: It definitely does. Susan Stone: Now, I don't want to date myself in my next question. Do you remember the Alan Sherman song? Hello mudda. Hello fada. I won't sing for everybody. It's like one of my favorite songs. It's a really funny song. Alan Sherman. Hello mudda. Hello fada FADDUH. Great song for you listeners out there. I would play it, but it talks about homesickness and  you know, I remember when I sent my kids to camp. I I thoughts homesickness was normal, so when I got the first I miss you mom letter. I knew it was temporary and then by the time you picked them up, they're like, oh, I wanna stay in there crying that they're leaving. However, my kids were young and went to camp pre COVID and pre the mental health issues that Kristina and I wrestle with every day. I mean, I believe that kids are wrestling with social media. My kids did not have cell phones when they went to camp. It was unthinkable that a young child or a middle schooler would have a cell phone. Kristina Supler: That's so interesting that you say that, Susan. I hadn't thought about that, and imagining well my daughter, I mean, I guess I have a direct experience with this, but I hadn't really tied it to the context of our practice. When she's away at camp in the camp experience, she has every summer's two weeks of sleep away and there's no electronics or anything like that. And she's fine. I mean, she adores her camp experience, but for many students who are so tied to their devices, social media, all those connections to then have them ripped away, it makes the transition all the more difficult. And pile on top of that homesickness. It actually is a lot. It's a tall, emotional order for adolescence. Susan Stone: So how do you know Doctor Thurber between normal homesickness, that a parent should go, huh that'll pass, versus something's curious I need to check in on this and how. What is the appropriate way to check in on this? It is not get on a plane I assume and pull your kid out immediately. But is it? Dr. Chris Thurber: No, absolutely not. Susan Stone: I could be wrong. Dr. Chris Thurber: No, you're not wrong. Again, you're right. You're also again present in, saying that home sickness is normal because it absolutely is. Of course, it varies in intensity from one person to another, but adults miss things about home when they're away as well, like on a business trip or something like that. So right, so look, the and this is really essential preparation in addition to what I said earlier about some practice time away from home. But letting your child know that you expect that there will be some things they miss about home. Maybe it'll be home cooking. Maybe it'll be you, or if there's another parent in the household, maybe it'll be the comforts of their room. The dog, dog, sibling, whatever it might be and you know it's different things for different people. But with practice time away from home and with an understanding that this is an absolutely normal phenomenon. And I tell kids. Look, there's something about home you miss that means there's something about home you love. That's wonderful. And all those things that you love are gonna be there when camp wraps up. So love this while you're at camp, love this experience. Make yourself at home here and look forward to what you're going to return to. You know, it's fantastic, however. There are instances when you know the intensity of home sickness is getting in the way of that child's enjoying activities and participating in other ways at camp. It's getting in the way of their making new friends and it's getting in the way of their eating and sleeping and well-trained staff are gonna know. How to spot that? Here's a kid who isn't eating well, sleeping well, not participating, not making friends. So those sort of primary functions of a camper when they're, you know, a day or two, we're going to make it if it's that extreme on a chronic basis, that camper is not eating well, sleeping well. Connecting participating. The first thing that's gonna happen again with at a camp with a well-trained staff is someone at camp is gonna contact you and say, here's the situation. Here's how we've been managing it. Let's talk about options, but it would be a huge mistake for any parent to preemptively respond to what is in 99.9% of cases, a normative, homesick letter by getting themselves to the camp and robbing their child of such an important developmental experience. Kristina Supler: Do phone calls help or hurt a child sort of weather the storm of homesickness. Dr. Chris Thurber: Unequivocally, they hurt until you've passed at least the two-week mark and then phone calls, if it's a four or seven week experience, are appropriate if they are scheduled not as a treatment for homesickness, not you missed your mom or you miss your dad or and so let's get them on the phone. It's never a treatment for homesickness and it if it's ever used by camp directors who don't know the research, haven't been to one of my workshops or parents who, you know, haven't read this summer camp handbook. And again, these are loving, well-intentioned people, but it is absolutely the wrong thing to do. If it's a scheduled contact after the two-week Mark that's used simply as a way to keep in touch, great. Even better though, letter writing. Because think about the difference you have to ponder You have to personalize. You have to reflect and then to get a response you have to wait and that's really good for kids. They don't have enough practice. Susan Stone: Delayed gratification.   Kristina Supler: Though I will say that all the the shishi camps now, there's still some letter writing, but then there's the there's emails and it's not, you know, unfettered access, but you have to wait a day for your response. So there's a little bit of delayed gratification, but it's not like a week for the post to be delivered. Susan Stone: Oh, what about care packages? Because I know that I remember this like it was yesterday. What started out as send a few pieces of candy, then became my kids were saying this one got this and this one got that, and you don't love me if you don't send me this and…. Kristina Supler: The status thing, it almost turned into as well. The comparisons who got what. Susan Stone: And I was always on the bottom. Does that surprise you? Kristina Supler: I doubt that very much. Susan Stone: And I'm telling you I sent some good care packages. Thoughts? Dr. Chris Thurber: Well, if you know if, if you're bored this summer, you could send me some care packages just to my home because I won't be. But now I see it it that is the problem you just described it and most camps are moving to a policy of no care packages. Sending your child to camp investing your you know time and your money. Although many camps also offer financial aid, you did a wonderful thing by involving Susan, your child, in the search for what camp is it going to be? It gave Alex decision control. She felt involved in the process. That is a wonderful way to diminish the intensity of homesickness. So without having a conversation, the two of us, you did so many things well. And I would say if the camp now is not allowing care packages, they're doing something well, because having your child go to camp is a way of showing you care in all caps, bold exclamation point, italics underlined. This is a way of showing you care and the camp has wonderful food and snacks and lots of things to do. So you don't need to send care packages and that makes it easier for everybody, not just in the name of equity and preventing this kind of comparison, but also in the name of hygiene, you know, camps that allow care packages. Susan Stone: Or lack thereof. Dr. Chris Thurber: Ohh. Or exactly? Susan Stone: I mean, I came back and saw some yellow teeth. I doubt we're brushed, but you know that's part of it. Dr. Chris Thurber: Yeah, well, there's that. There's that, but there's also raccoons and mice and squirrels and all the other, you know, creepy crawlies that also love your chocolate chip cookies. Susan Stone: Yeah. Who wouldn't. Kristina Supler: I'm curious, are there any conversations that sort of come to mind that you encourage parents to have with their children before sending them off? Probably the first time or so to camp. Dr. Chris Thurber: So it's it, you know, it's normal for expect that your child is gonna express some kind of trepidation. It could be, what if I feel homesick? Or what if I don't like this? Or what if I'm not making friends, but the response that I coach parents to have when there's some kind of expression of, you know, concern is or anticipatory anxiety? Hey, I'm glad I'm glad we're talking about this. I think there will be some sort of adjustment because it's a new place with new traditions, different menu of activities and food. And of course, like that takes some getting used to. It's also part of the excitement is that it's different, different from home. It's different from school and I've every confidence that you will be able to push through those periods of adjustment those days when you feel like, ohh, you wish you had another friend or you're missing something from home or you don't like what's served for lunch. That's part of the experience and then you know, so that's the conversation to have is one that expresses optimism, optimism and confidence. The conversation not to have at any cost in any circumstance is the pickup deal, so saying, well, if you don't like it, I'll come and get you. Susan Stone: Umm, Nope, not happening. Dr. Chris Thurber: If you feel homesick, yeah. Because you have, you have just, you know, incapacitated the camp staff, whatever they would say to coach your child through a normal bout of homesickness is immediately surpassed by your offer on the table, which is there something you don't like? I'm gonna come and get you. What we wanna be doing as loving parents is saying, you know, there's something you don't like or if you're uncomfortable, I want you to learn the coping skills to manage that right. I mean, and you don't have to use those words, but when you say you can persevere, the camp staff are there to help you write to me about how you feel. And I'll write back. You know, this is this is what we want to say. Without ever, ever putting on the table a pickup deal it just it it it's horrible. Kristina Supler: But what's interesting is that essentially what I'm hearing you say, reading between the lines are listening between the lines. It is parents don't insert yourself in the process. So no, I'll come get you if you're miserable. Don't insist on phone. Let your child have an opportunity to excel and navigate conflict and emotions on on the child's own footing. Dr. Chris Thurber: Yes, PS:, we deserve a break. As you know from full-time parenthood, so enjoy yourself. Susan Stone: Amen. Well, if you can't do the pre summer before the summer tour, which I have to say I could do for my first child. But then two and three didn't have that luxury. What is the advice you give parents right now, end of November, early December, to help give students the choice of camps. Would it be helpful because you really can't do a camp visit now? Camps are closed. So would you say have them look online and watch those great videos and then maybe have a call with the camp director? Dr. Chris Thurber: That would be perfect. I think they're probably some things you can do before you go online, such as, you know, open ended conversation about what do you imagining you'd like to do at camp and are you imagining that you would like to be at an A Coed camp or an all gender camper or voice camper or girls camp? Are you imagining you would like to be in the mountains close to the shore on a lake. So you can throw some of those parameters out there, and if you have camp experience, you can also describe the camp where you at and what that was like and then you can go online and do a bit of a virtual tour, but the American Camp Association website and kids camps and a few other places, if you Google databases of summer camps, you're gonna be able to find keeping in mind that the American Camp Association database and the provincial camps associations databases are the only ones that camps are not paying an extra fee for to advertise. So yes, it's all marketing. Yes, it's all advertising and yes, you have to pay to be a member of the American Camp Association or the Ontario Camp Association, but you don't have to pay anything extra to be listed. You do have to pay extra to be listed in these other online listings, so you may not get a complete list, but you can narrow it down and then you can start as you said, going on to the websites and taking a peek. And it's wonderful to be able to talk to the camp director. One other thing that I would ask the camp director is could you give me the names of some families local to me who have kids at camp right now or have in the last few years. And the reason I would phrase it like that families local to me is twofold. One, if you say give me the names of some families, they're going to give you the names of the two families that are their personal friends who loved camp the most and are an extension of the marketing. If you say families local to you, that means that they can't hand pick the two families to zoom with, their local to whatever town you're in. Plus, if they are families local to you, this is the best thing getting families together, whether it's during this winter break or you know sometime in January, February or maybe the March or April break. But you know, so the kids can talk camp. You know, I'm talking about a returning camper and the parents can chat about what helped their child and what helped their own adjustment, because of course they're gonna miss their kids. But I think that's wonderful. So just add that as the cherry on top to your virtual tour idea. Susan Stone: I remember doing that by the way, calling the parents were local. I did and I also used, they were great, a camp advisor where I spoke to the person and said what I was interested and they generated a list and it was free. So parents should know. You know, I don't know how you feel about camp advisors. There are people who take their fees from the camps and not the parents. Dr. Chris Thurber: Mm-hmm. Right. Susan Stone: Umm. Is that something you would recommend as well? Dr. Chris Thurber: I think that as long as you recognize what it is that is being paid for, either by you or the camp which is access camp advisors can be enormously helpful in meeting a family, meeting a child, helping that child cull down you know their interests or listen to what their interests are and cull down the list of camps, knowing that you're going to be getting a choice or be offered a few camps that are already on that camp advisor's list. The pro being that camp advisor has personally vetted those camps, so they've done some of the background research for you. The downside being the list is limited to the camps that paid to work with that advisor or you know it's a limited by the advisor's geographic scope, but it can be enormously helpful and wonderful dimension to finding camps. You do your virtual camp tour and then talk to a camp advisor. You start to get some like convergent validity if you're coming up with the same two or three camp names, right? Kristina Supler: Absolutely. Look, Doctor Thurber, this has been a real treat. I think that you've given us some really, really great information and food for thought. Dr. Chris Thurber: Oh good. Kristina Supler: For parent listeners out there and I'm glad that we were able to talk summer camp, but gives us something to look forward to on this cold snowy day. Susan Stone: Kristina, do you think that we could go to summer camp? Kristina Supler: I wish. Spa weekend. That's our summer camp, right? Dr. Chris Thurber: There you go, Club Med. Susan Stone: A spa hour, if we're lucky. Susan Stone: Thank you, Dr. Thurber. We really loved having you. Dr. Chris Thurber: Thank you both. Susan Stone: We really loved having you. Dr. Chris Thurber: I love being here. Happy holidays. Kristina Supler: Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram, just search our handle @StoneSupler and for more resources, visit us online at studentdefense.kjk.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our Real Talk community. We'll see you next time.  

With all of the Family drama and everything coming against our families, we need to fight in the spirit for our families.

Are you familiar with the term "Turkey Drop"? This phenomenon occurs when college freshmen return home for Thanksgiving and often part ways with their hometown sweethearts. In a special Thanksgiving episode of Real Talk, hosts Susan and Kristina are joined by three students from a prominent midwestern university. Each student candidly shares their personal experiences of going through breakups during this period, offering valuable insights into the complexities and emotions leading up to these moments of transition.     LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW: https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Your-Kid-Parents-Todays/dp/1637743807     SHOW NOTES: ·       Introduction to the show and hosts, Susan Stone and Kristina Supler (00:01) ·       Discussion on the excitement of the first Thanksgiving when students come home from college (00:14) ·       Introduction of the "Turkey drop" concept and personal experiences (00:38) ·       Introduction of three student guests: Laney, Jenna, and Morgan (01:41) ·       Discussion on the reasons behind the "Turkey drop" (06:02) ·       Sharing locations with friends and partners for safety and convenience (08:59) ·       Experiences post "Turkey drop" and current relationships with ex-partners (16:04) ·       Advice for freshmen with high school relationships (17:49) ·       Suggestion for a holiday gift: the book "Yes, your Kid" (19:35) ·       Conclusion and thanks to the guests (20:10) ·       Outro and promotion for the show (20:46)   TRANSCRIPT: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Suler. We are full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversation. Susan Stone: So in anticipation of Thanksgiving, Kristina, I wanted to do a really fun podcast, but I have to tell you that I know parents who have the freshmen who went off to college. The parents are so excited because there's nothing like that. First Thanksgiving when your kid comes home from college one day. You'll say that to me. I remember when you told me that. Kristina Supler: I'm sure I don't doubt it. Susan Stone: But not all is Turkey and pumpkins because some kids come home from college and they do the Turkey drop, which is when college kids come home and break up with their hometown, honey. But Kristina, you have an interesting view of this and actually so do I, but I want to hear what you say. Kristina Supler: I did not do the Turkey drop, so I married my high school sweetheart. I didn't come home from Thanksgiving and do the breakup that you see everywhere. And now I'm married and have two kids, Susan Stone: And I also want to share, and I hope I don't embarrass her, that my own daughter did not do the Turkey drop and she just married her high school sweetheart this summer. So it doesn't always happen. But with that said, I'm hoping we're going to get into some juicy conversation about it. Why don't you introduce our guests? Kristina Supler: Yes. We are really excited today to be joined by three students from a wonderful Midwestern university that we're very familiar with. We're joined today by Laney, Jenna, and Morgan, who are going to share with us their perspectives on the Turkey drop. So ladies, without giving away anything that would reveal your identities, tell us a little bit about yourselves and what you're doing at school and really what you know about the Turkey drop Susan Stone: And identify yourselves because of course our listeners can only hear you and not see you. So say it's Jenna, it's Laney. Jenna: I'm Jenna. I am currently applying to law school right now, which is exciting and going through the process. Yes, and I did participate in the Turkey drop my freshman year of college. Susan Stone: What happened? Jenna: Pretty much verbatim what the Turkey drop would be. Two days after Thanksgiving, he came over to my family Thanksgiving party and then I was like, this is just not it anymore. And then two days later we broke up and now he's dating my best friend from high school. Susan Stone: No, well, there you go. Jenna, what question? Were you both freshmen at different colleges or was he your hometown and still in high school? Jenna: He was from my hometown, but we were both at separate colleges. We went separate colleges, so did long distance for the first three months and then called it quits. Susan Stone: Was it hard for you? I was just going to ask. Jenna: I was upset a little bit, but I was very much ready for the relationship to be over. But I feel like when you're date for a while, it's always a little bit upsetting, but definitely. Well, it's Susan Stone: We'll it's always over until you meet the one, right? Right. Yeah. Laney, what about you? Lany: Okay, so my story's a little bit different. Well, I'm Laney and I am a marketing major, and I did the Turkey drop second or my second year of college, so my sophomore year. So we actually made it through the freshman year, but then sophomore year we did it for a while. I just kind of was like, I don't even know. I was kind of just bored. I needed something new and then I was seeing all these new faces at school, so I just decided to participate in the Turkey drop and it happened. Well, he knew it was coming that I was going to break up with him. So when we were from the same hometown, but we went to two separate colleges, but he knew I was going to break up with him, so he just made me do it over the phone because he didn't want to have to see me in person to do it. I think he was embarrassed. Susan Stone: I think that's reasonable, don't you? Yeah, I mean, Lany: Yeah, it's reasonable. We ended up talking after that, but we dated for about four years, so I feel like it would've been a little more mature if he let me do it in person. Kristina Supler: Oh, that's a long relationship to just have a breakup over the phone actually. I agree with you. Lany: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, but then we ended up talking later over Thanksgiving, I think at Christmas break is when we actually ended up talking in person. But nope, just over Thanksgiving break I went for a drive and just broke up with him over the phone. Kristina Supler: Morgan, what about you Morgan? Morgan: I know. So I participated in the Turkey job my freshman year of college and we went to two different colleges. We dated all through high school and I don't know, I kind of just got to college and realized there's more to do in the world than be with my high school boyfriend, and I just decided that it was becoming a lot, having to keep up with him all the time, and I thought it was time to go our separate ways. Susan Stone: And I mean, was the grass greener on the other side of the fence? Morgan: Yes, I will say I think that's so bad, but I think it was a long time coming Halloween and he surprised me on Halloween right before we went home for Thanksgiving and it was fine, except I think I realized that was when I wasn't the most excited to be seeing him. I was excited for a fun Halloween with my new friends that I had met at college. So it was definitely that for me that I realized I think I was better off just doing my own thing and being more independent than having to rely on my high school boyfriend. Susan Stone: Well, that leads me to the question for all three of you, and maybe we just kind of go in reverse order. What do you think the main reasons are for the Turkey drop? Morgan: I think for me, it wasn't even like I met someone new at school that I was interested in. I think it was more just realizing I didn't want to have to be, I don't know. I wanted to be able to go out and not have to worry about texting my boyfriend where I was, who I was with, what I was doing. And that's kind of what it was for me freshman year because I know for me, I really loved my school, but for him it was a bit of a different story. So it was just two different dynamics and I think it was just time for us to part ways and meet new people.  Lany: I would say almost the same thing. Yeah, we went to two very different schools. He was playing a sport in college, the division one sport, so he was super busy and we were just living two completely different lives and I was just meeting a bunch of people and we're in a sorority, so taking people to date parties, it kind of just got to the point where I just wanted to be able to go to more date parties with boys and bring them to mine. And I don't know, just our schools were very different, so I feel like I would be doing things completely different than he would on the weekends. He would be going to games and I would be going out and stuff. Just meeting a lot of people.  Jenna: And then I think for me was our relationship was fine, except I think that once we both went our separate ways to college, we were a little too okay without each other and we never went to visit each other, never really cared to. So I think it was more of a just fizzling out of a relationship because we just really kind of realized that we were very okay without each other and didn't really need that anymore. Susan Stone: So I have a question, Jenna, you mentioned not wanting to have to go out and then check in with your boyfriend when you got home. I am curious, how common is it that you share your locations and you check in with each other after a night out? Are all college students doing that now or is that something that only parents do to keep an eye on their students? Jenna: It's actually funny. I still have his location. He still has mine really, because we just never unshared them. But I think, all my friends have my locations and stuff, so I think it's really common now just for a lot of people to have your location, not necessarily making sure you're in a certain place or whatever, more for safety purposes and stuff and just because fun to see where everyone is. I do think it's kind of normal now if you guys would say the same. Yeah, definitely.  Susan Stone: I just want to point out that I always disagree with parents about locations. I'm one of the few parents I know who does not share location.  Kristina Supler: You always say Susan, I don't want to know. Let them lead their lives. I want to live my life. Susan Stone: Well, parents say to me, but it's a safety thing, and I respond back, what are you going to do? Students: That's so true. Yeah, that is very true. Susan Stone: And I also don't want to know my husband's location, and you know what? I don't want him to know mine. I am. Amen. Yeah, I just feel like I got to be a level of trust. Do you think, do you view it because I know all our clients sharing location is a thing, so do you view it as a way of forming intimacy with a friend or a boyfriend or a safety issue? Because I find it creepy. Lany: I feel like I use it a lot more for my friends than I do with my family. Like you said, what are you going to do about it? Yeah, if I'm going out and it's two in the morning, my mom's sleeping, she's not looking at my location. But I feel like for friends, it's super nice, like, oh, we're at one bar, but I don't know where my friends are. You just look at their location. If sometimes in the bars your phone's not working or people just aren't on them, it's good to just be able, oh, they're here. I can go there. Or someone's picking you up from class and you can just check to see how far they are. I feel like it's honestly very useful. Convenient. Convenient for roommates, but I'm not ever really looking at my mom or dad's location. Well, my dad will share it. I feel like locations be a good thing until you take it. If someone was to take it out of pocket, I feel like if you had a boyfriend really tracking you and keeping tabs on where you are, then I feel like that's just taken to the next level. But I agree. I think I use my location more for just us. Yeah, for sure.  Susan Stone: Interesting. Kristina Supler: Yeah. I'm wondering for, so the three of you have all done the Turkey Drop. Do you have any friends who have done it but then maybe reunited with the dropped person later? Student:  I do. I have a friend who did. I don't remember if she did Turkey drop or if it was over Christmas break, one of the two. But then, yeah, they reunited back over summer, but then broke up two months after that. So I think it was for the best that the Turkey drop should have just stayed. Susan Stone: Do you think you could manage, if you sort of were on the fence, okay, that you realized, I do love this person, but I don't want to be timed down. Could you remain open or is that too much? Student: I feel like that's the point. Student: I agree with that. I feel like I was to the point where I was like, if I'm going to break up with him, I just like it's going to happen. I didn't want to, don't know. I feel like I was past the point of making the effort, trying new things of if I would do open or anything. It was kind of just past that point. She was staying open.  Student: I think that I feel like I was already kind of doing that. We really didn't. I never texted him the whole time when I was out. I did my own thing. I usually really never knew where he was or what he was doing, which just goes to my point where I think we were a little bit too comfortable with being away from each other.  Student: I think mine was more of kind of random. I remember calling my mom, she's like, why are you breaking up with him? I didn't really have a reason. I feel like it was just not being able to see him. We lived in the same neighborhood, so I saw him all the time before every single day. So I think just kind of growing apart and nothing really happened, so it was hard, but I feel like, I don't know what I'm even going with this, but I feel like if we would've went to the same schools, we probably would've stayed together.  Student: I feel like when it begins to feel like you have to text them and you have to tell them things, you kind of just know this is fizzling out. We're going to go our separate ways. When something exciting happens and you're like, they're not the first person you want to go talk to about it, you just don't feel like it, then it's probably a time to Oh, yeah. Yeah.  Susan Stone: Ladies, you are on Real Talk with Susan and Kristina, so I'm going to ask you something and I want you to be real. The breakup, was it in your minds at all? Oh my gosh, we're heading into the holiday season, have to buy gifts, spend time with their families, all of that. Was that on your radar or no? Student: No, but we already started buying gifts for each other for Christmas, and I was like, I got him $200 raybans. So I was like, okay, I'm just going to return them. And he was like, no, let's meet up in a month, go to lunch and exchange our gifts. And I was like, okay. So I ended up giving my ex-boyfriend $200 Raybans, and I got a plastic Starbucks cup and Susan Stone: He cheaped out on you?  Student: Yeah, that was definitely something.  Student: Yeah, so I kind of have a similar thing. My birthday was in September, so for my birthday he bought me tickets. I was a really big Louisville football fan. He's big Kentucky, so the big game was over Christmas break, so for my birthday in September, he had bought me those tickets. I don't even know if he had bought them yet. So we were supposed to go over Christmas break, so I never even got my birthday present because then we broke up and then I didn't even get the tickets. Shoot. I know. So not Christmas gifts, but I didn't even get my birthday.  Student: I feel like I really, I was just so kind of in my head just over, I knew it was kind of over. I don't really think I thought much into Christmas gifts or anything because I just knew when I got home and saw him again, I was just going to cut it off. I didn't want to do it over the phone because we had been dating for a while and I wanted to try to be respectful about it.  Susan Stone: If you saw the person now, would it be friendly, awkward? What's the state? How do you feel about that person now? Student: So my ex-boyfriend's actually in my high school friend group from home. I definitely see him more often than not when I'm home, but I feel like it's not really awkward because it definitely was at first for sure. But now at this point, I mean we've seen each other over breaks. We just kind of say hi. We're not really small talking, but we're still civil and friendly with one another. Susan Stone: That's nice. Student: Yeah, that's how I am too. Like I mentioned earlier, we live in the same neighborhood, so I definitely run into him every once in a while. It's not really awkward at all. We still, every once in a while we'll text and catch up. I dated him for so long, so we're still good friends and we'll catch up, but I was really close with his family, so sometimes when I go home for a night or something, I live pretty close to school, I'll see his family and I'll go over to his family's house and hang out with them when he's not there. I was just so close with him, his parents and then his older sisters I was super close with. So it's not awkward at all for me.  Student: Same for me. We're in the same high school friend group too, so we saw each other a few times over the summer and it's never really weird. If I have my friends over, I invite him. We ended things very on good terms, so it's all good. Susan Stone: How many of you are big sisters in your sorority? All: We all, yeah, we all are. Yeah. Susan Stone:  Are your littles freshmen? All: They're they're juniors. Susan Stone: Oh, okay. So if you had advice for a freshman who you knew had a hometown, honey, what would be your advice Student:  I think that it's always worth a try, but don't go in with the highest expectations because nine times out of 10 it doesn't work out. And that's fine and you'll be fine.  Student: Yeah, I mean, yeah, that I guess is better advice. Go in it with it, but also don't miss out on things. Go to the date parties. If your boyfriend trusts you not to do anything, then I think it's totally fair to be friends with a guy as just friends and go to his date parties and stuff. I feel like when me and my boyfriend broke up, I met so many more guys. I wasn't, there wasn't even a guy that I liked. You just meet so many more people when you don't have a boyfriend because you get invited to those things. I guess that's for being in sororities and fraternities, but just don't miss out on things because of a relationship. And if you are, then it's probably not meant to be.  Student: I definitely agree. I think freshman year is one of the most important times to meet new friends and figure out what you want to be doing and what you like and the people you want to be around. And I think that it's like you need to make sure that having a boyfriend isn't holding you back from those types of things because those are the friendships you're going to look on to later on and be so happy that you met those girls and you went to that thing. You went to that event, you went out that night just because, I don't know, you don't want to miss out on stuff like that. And if a boyfriend's holding you back from that, it's probably time to let him go.  Student: Agreed. Susan Stone: So Kristina, I have a suggestion for these lovely ladies. What they should get their parents for Christmas or for the holidays? Kristina Supler: Oh, you are the most clever of them all. Ms. Stone, what is it? What do you think it is? Oh my gosh, look at that.  Susan Stone: I think on Amazon, all of your friends should get a copy of Yes, your Kid. What parents Need To Know About Today's Teens and Sex - Co-written by yours truly, because there's some new topics about the new sex ed in here, like rough sex, choking, plan B. We know what you really do, guys, so I think you should let your parents know. What do you think, Kristina? Kristina Supler:  Check it out. It's a good primer for parents on what I mean, what you all know, but what we're seeing when people come to us for various types of matters and what's really going on college campuses these days, which is shocking to some parents, but not to us because it's what we do. But it was really such a treat speaking with you all. Thank you so much for joining us, Laney, Jenna, and Morgan, and hopefully this was a fun little episode for our listeners to just talk about the Turkey drop. Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram, just search our handle @StoneSupler and for more resources, visit us online at studentdefense.kjk.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our Real Talk community. We'll see you next time.

In this compelling episode of "Real Men, Real Talk," we welcome former NFL star Ryan Mundy for an intimate live recording at the 20th Walk to Save Black Men's Lives. Ryan joins AAMWA President Kenny Hampton and founder John Gregory in a raw dialogue about identity, vulnerability, and the journey to self-discovery. "Who Am I?" explores the highs and lows of transitioning from professional sports to everyday life and the mental resilience needed both on and off the field. Tune in as these three men suit up not for a game, but for a conversation that tackles the essential aspects of mental wellness and identity. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/aawellness/message

On this episode of Real Talk, Susan and Kristina are joined by Dr. Debby Herbenick to discuss their new book, Yes, Your Kid: What Parents Need to Know About Today's Teens and Sex. Covering various aspects of sexuality and sexual education including the challenges of working with students in crisis situations, the evolving definitions of what constitutes "sex," and the prevalence of rough sex practices, specifically choking, in contemporary sexual experiences. In this episode, they touch on the confusion and lack of comprehensive sexual education, and how the digital age and online media have further complicated these issues. The conversation highlights how different individuals may have varying definitions and perspectives on what constitutes sexual activity.   Pre-Order Our Book "Yes, Your Kid" Today!   Links Mentioned in the Show ·       https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Your-Kid-Parents-Todays/dp/1637743807 ·       https://sexualhealth.indiana.edu/   Show Notes: Book announcement (00:25) Introduction of Dr. Debby Herbenick (1:50) Book summary (3:10) Why should parents buy this book? (4:10) The different perspectives during the writing process (6:10) How the research is different from the legal perspective (9:57) How the types of cases change over time (13:30) How sex changes (15:00) How choking has grown in prevalence (18:10) How well are students educated about sex (19:40) How the internet changes student education (21:40) How the definition of sex changes over time (22:20) How different groups of people define sex (25:45) The goal of being an “askable” parent “(27:50) The importance of providing information to kids and students (30:00) What was your favorite part of writing this book (32:05) How sex on the spectrum is discussed (34:50) Current trends of mental health in students (36:30)

Welcome to the inaugural episode of the Real Men Real Talk podcast, your authentic space for candid conversations about mental health in the African American community. This episode introduces you to our mission and the theme for this season—'It's OK to Talk.' Our esteemed hosts, John Gregory, founder of the African American Male Wellness Agency, and Kenny R. Hampton, its President, kickstart the series by exemplifying vulnerability. They delve into personal experiences shared during travel, revealing that even in positions of leadership, prioritizing mental health isn't optional—it's essential. Tune in to listen to a heartening conversation that stresses the importance of self-disclosure, community, and mental well-being. Because remember, it's OK to talk. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/aawellness/message

We've all heard the misconceptions about property investors – how they're often painted as greedy landlords who love raising rents and spend their time swimming in a mountain of cash.In this bonus episode - originally recorded for the Real Talk podcast (aka the realestate.com.au podcast) - we debunk some of the popular myths around property investment!Hosted by Alice Piper, this episode features our very own Bryce Holdaway, as well as senior PropTrack economist Paul Ryan. Before joining REA in late 2020, Paul spent a decade at the Reserve Bank of Australia conducting research on the Australian economy, focusing on housing markets, lending risks and regulatory effects on property markets.He has also been featured on Episode 459 of our podcast, where we chat about how to solve Australia's growing demand for property! Timestamps 0:00 - REAL Talk - Where are all the Property Investors going?00:58 - Data shows investors are offloading their properties at a loss

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler discuss the digital landscape, what parents should be aware of and how to promote healthy offline connections.   Show Notes: ·         Discussing the digital landscape, what's new and what parents should be aware of (00:45) ·         What platforms are commonly used? (1:20) ·         Description and explanation of Snapchat (2:15) ·         What can parents do at home (3:20) ·         Cell phones and driving (4:35) ·         How phones effect sleep (5:20) ·         How to help promote healthy offline connections (6:10) ·         How the pandemic effected digital habits (7:15) ·         Offline activities (8:30) ·         Being aware of online bullying (9:20) ·         Social media and FOMO (9:50) Transcript Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Christina Soupler. We are full-time moms and attorneys, bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real, candid conversation. After school time is happening, and I think you and I need to explore what we saw last year to helpfully give our listeners some food for thoughts this school year for younger kids, the middle school and high school crowd.   Kristina Supler: Today we're going to talk about the digital landscape and what parents need to know and what's going on out here.   Susan Stone: Now what's new? And what's new today will not be new, it changes every day. So I think our first piece of advice to parents is stay on it.   Kristina Supler: And don't give up hope. I mean so often we hear, I don't know, I'm not good with tech these kids in their phones, who knows. But I mean at the end of the day, you don't have to know the intricacies of how to post the most perfect video. You just have to understand the platforms that kids are using and generally what's going on and what are the dangers of those platforms really.   Susan Stone: So to prepare, I called my rising senior and said, "What is everyone on your grade on?" I thought I'd start there and I wasn't surprised. We knew the answers.   Kristina Supler: TikTok and Snapchat.   Susan Stone: TikTok and Snapchat. Everybody is both viewing and making videos on TikTok, TikTok, is trending really well. And that B-roll, B-real, right, Kristina?   Kristina Supler: B-real.   Susan Stone: B-real. Real film. Got it. Where they would send a notification and then you have to take a quick picture. What was the purpose of that? That was a new one.   Kristina Supler: I guess to be spontaneous and be your authentic self versus having these perfectly choreographed videos. And anyway, it's always changing. But there's ways for parents to find out what's going on out there.   Susan Stone: Word of advice on snapchat. So the whole idea of parents for those of you who don't know is that you send a snap, I guess that's what it's called, and then it disappears. Does it?   Kristina Supler: I would say yes and no or sometimes. I mean, it seems like every case that we have there's an issue with snapchat and sometimes messages are recoverable, believe it or not, through backup files and other means and forensic analysis. But often they're not. And, you know, again, sometimes it's a blessing that messages can't be recovered. And then you know, sometimes you're like, oh, I would do anything if we could track down these messages. So, you know, I think snapchat it's just one of those things where the bottom line should be, you don't know what's going to happen. Just be thoughtful about what you put out into the universe.   Susan Stone: And don't assume just because you send a snap to somebody that it is going to disappear before someone has had a time, a chance to take a screenshot. Show and reproduce and send off that snap. Careful what you snap in a snap.   Kristina Supler: Amen, there you go. What about, I mean, what can parents do at home to educate their children about online safety and then model healthy behaviors?   Susan Stone: Well, I don't like lecturing. It never works. I think modeling healthy behaviors,   Kristina Supler: I totally agree.   Susan Stone: And I just share one pet peeve that I see all the time. I hate phones at the dinner table.   Kristina Supler: I agree. And in my house, we're actually very strict about that because if we weren't, there absolutely be a cell phone and then iPad at the dinner table. There'd be a YouTube video playing in the background and my husband and I was like, turn it off, turn it off. And it's just sort of like, eyeroll, okay, mom, fine. But if we didn't make them do it, they wouldn't do it.   Susan Stone: Well, let's be clear. Adults are just as bad about looking at their phone.   Kristina Supler:  Absolutely. Oh my gosh. Absolutely. It's how often do I know I catch myself all the time. I'm in a conversation, I'm listening and then I pull out my phone and I'm still kind of listening, but I'm also like totally engrossed in my Instagram feed and it's just you don't even realize how splintered your attention is.   Susan Stone: Do not look at your phone while you're driving that is in no bueno distracted driving is a huge problem. Kristina Supler:  And I don't have data. I wish I had some study to say I'm sure there's good research out there, but you know, I would say the reality is regardless of your age, texting and driving, bad, dangerous because if you're looking at your phone, by definition, you're not looking at the road.   Susan Stone: I'm very mindful that my children have always seen a pile of books. Very messily next to on my bed, stand next to my bed.   Kristina Supler: Same with me.   Susan Stone: I mean, I always have five books going, but the other night I caught myself looking at my phone and you know, it's not good for healthy sleep.   Kristina Supler:  No, and actually that that was something. I guess you could say I had the good fortune of learning back in college. I had tremendous trouble with sleeping. Insomnia, I would dread going to bed because I was just later for hours and hours and hours. Yeah, and you know, through that though, I learned the importance of having really good boundaries with electronics and the bedroom. And so not laying in bed on your phone or not looking at your laptop, shooting off some emails before you try to go to bed because you can't wind down.   Susan Stone: Well, and again, it's that modeling. If you want your kids not to be addicted to their devices, we have to establish healthy boundary with our own devices.   Kristina Supler: Absolutely. So what do your thoughts, Susan, on how to help promote really healthy offline connections?   Susan Stone: By doing.   Kristina Supler: Yeah.   Susan Stone: Again, it's that modeling. And so, I think it's important to, when I know when I go out and walk the dog to just say, "Hey, you want to come with me to walk the dog?"   Kristina Supler: Yeah, and I think this is one of those things that it's ironic that we're talking about this in the context of healthy tech habits because I think the practical advice is rooted in just old fashioned behaviors. And by that, I mean, just do stuff, try sports, try other clubs, maybe it's theater, just find stuff that's interesting. And it's through trial and error, you know, some kids are going to find stuff easier than others that they like. Some kids like everything they do. Others don't. Others, it's a more difficult journey to find stuff that's interesting and exciting. But you just have to keep encouraging them. And I think as parents, it's so easy, we come home from work, we're exhausted. Our children just want to be left alone in their bedrooms, but we still have to encourage them to do stuff. We still have to make the effort to have conversations, right?   Susan Stone: It was really challenging during the pandemic. Everybody lived virtually. For me, the conversation is how lucky we are that we're not living that pandemic life, even though, of course, people still get COVID. And it's here to stay. We're not locked in our homes. We can interact. There are people out and about into really show gratitude for things that were taken away from us.   Kristina Supler: That's such a great point about, you know, essentially perspective, because if you think about it in 2021, 2020, when we were locked in our houses and couldn't go anywhere, it was just like, "Oh, you do anything. You'd be exciting to go to Target, right?" And now it's interesting to see how sometimes we lose perspective on having the ability to go out and do things and socialize and interact with people. Susan Stone: I love going to the movies again. I don't care what anybody says. To me, there is nothing better than getting a big box of junior mints and sitting and watching a flick in a theater.cI love it.   Kristina Supler: I still want to be with you on this one. But I know like movie theaters. I actually, I am one of those people. I'd rather watch a movie in the comfort of my own home. But I hear you, though. I agree with your point generally speaking. Let's just getting out and doing things.   Susan Stone: And live theater in summer concerts.   Kristina Supler: Yeah. Yeah.   Susan Stone: Musical theater. I have my tickets for Six.   Kristina Supler: Oh, yes. I was looking at that over the weekend.   Susan Stone: The best. It'll be the second time I saw it. So I'm a repeat offender for sometimes seeing the same musicals. But everybody out there needs to stay informed on what's happening online. And be cautious about online bullying too.   Kristina Supler: Oh, that's that's such an important topic. And I actually think particularly with younger children now, little school, it's something that they're very aware of because they're taught so much about it in school. Which is a good thing that they know about it because let's face it, it does happen. And I mean, they don't want to be a total Debbie Downer, but let's face it, the internet is full of dangerous stuff. And people with bad intentions.   Susan Stone: The last topic I want to bring up is FOMO.   Kristina Supler: Hmm. Tell me more.   Susan Stone: Let's talk about this because I think here again, modeling can come through. Just because you see people smiling on that Instagram picture. It's a picture. It's a moment in time. It's okay if you're not included in that event.   Kristina Supler: Oh, this is so interesting you bring this up because in my household, the issue with FOMO had to do with Taylor Swift tickets. Because we did not have the much sought after tickets.   Susan Stone: Was everyone saying, yay, I got my tickets online?   Kristina Supler: And they went and we were the only ones who didn't. I mean, kidding aside, it was like a big, it was a big thing in my house. And we just sort of had to work through it. But to your point Susan, you see these photos on Instagram and wherever whatever the platform is. It doesn't really matter. Everyone's smiling and happy and in, you know, cool outfits. But it's important that we, children and adults alike, we don't lose sight of the fact that it's not reality always.   Susan Stone: You know, one of the things I said to my kids growing up is you're invited and you are placed where you're meant to be. And that's okay. You're meant to be somewhere else and just be grateful for where you are and not in life and not what you think you missed out on.   Kristina Supler: Yeah, and that, I mean, something in our house that we talk about a lot is just the idea of treat others the way you want to be treated. Which again is so simple and basic, but I mean, it's, it works and all facets of life. All facets. Glad we had this little chat. Susan Stone: Indeed.   Kristina Supler: To our listeners, thanks for joining us and we'll catch you next time. Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Christina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode. And leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram, just search our handle @StoneSupler. And for more resources, visit us online at studentdefense.kjk.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our Real Talk community. We'll see you next time.  

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Carrie Hull, who founded the You Have Options Program, nationally recognized for providing reporting options for survivors of sexual violence. Carrie also created the Certified FETI® Program, standardizing trauma interviews. They discuss the importance of utilizing effective interviewing techniques in investigations, specifically within the realms of law enforcement and Title IX cases. They also explore the necessity of gathering accurate information and avoiding biased assumptions through neutral questioning. The role of body language and filtering out implicit bias is also discussed.   Show Notes: ·         Carrie's Background (1:30) ·         The FETI framework (2:30) ·         The science and study behind FETI (4:15) ·         The applications of a FETI interview (5:30) ·         How to ask questions using the FETI methodology (7:00) ·         Collecting the dots vs connecting the dots (08:30) ·         Receiving answers without judgement (10:00) ·         Use in different disciplines (11:45) ·         How FETI can be used in Title IX cases (13:50) ·         The importance of framing an investigation (16:30) ·         The role of body language in an interview (18:00) ·         How to prevent leading questions (19:45) ·         How to filter implicit bias (21:00) ·         How a FETI investigation differs (23:00) ·         Conclusion (25:20)     Transcript: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Christina Subler. We are full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversation. Today's episode is gonna focus on a topic that Christina and I really take for granted, and that's the actual interviewing process of somebody who is either reporting a Title IX complaint or a crime. Kristina Supler:  I am excited for today's guest because I think that sometimes when lawyers are brought in for student advisors, in particularly campus Title IX cases, there's so much focus on the hearing. But I know Susan, you and I always talk about how important the interview is, and we spend so much time preparing our students for their interview. Susan Stone:  I agree. And we have seen so many different styles of investigators. It's like snowflakes no two are the same. And I, I really do mean that we've seen people who make our students feel interrogated. Kristina Supler: Sure. And, and then we've also had, you know, investigators who I felt were very impartial and truly there to just have a conversation to collect evidence. Susan Stone: On the flip side, you want your investigator to be impartial, but you also want the details to come out and you wanna make sure they circle back and do a thorough investigation and really try to dig out the truth. Kristina Supler That's right. That's right. Well, I'm excited to speak with today's guest, Carrie Hall. Yeah. Carrie is an Oregon native, a former de detective with the Ashland Police Department and a leading figure in improving law enforcement responses to sexual violence. She created the Certified FETI® Program, which is an interviewing methodology intended to sort of standardize investigative interviews. And through her consultancy, Carrie Hall Consulting, she also offers specialized training to law enforcements across the globe. We're really pleased to have you join us today. Carrie. Welcome. Welcome, Carrie. Carrie Hull: Well, thanks so much.   Susan Stone: We're gonna start with the first question. We like to go broad and then whittle down called the, is that the funnel approach? Carrie?   Carrie Hull: Funnel Technique. Funnel Susan Stone: So describe the FETI framework. How's that? Carrie Hull: Yeah, so FETI stands for the Forensic Experiential Trauma Interview, and it really is made up of a series of principles and foundational, you know, metrics that are on the practitioner. So when we say practitioner, we mean the person who is conducting the interview. We don't have any requirements or any restrictions that are placed on what we consider the participant. We don't view our participants as victims, witnesses, suspects, anything like that, because we really want them to remain and us to remain in the neutral. We are fully just a methodology that is about information collection. So it's been very interesting when I, when I was listening to that introduction and you talking about interacting with some of these different investigators, what I think is such a defining piece for me as an investigator of FETI is that it forces me to stay in the interviewer role and not conflate being an investigator at the same time, which lets me gather information in such a, well, more robust way, but also a more accurate way, because I'm not driving towards a conclusion, which is really more of that investigative side. So what FETI does is it asks the practitioners to really just be an interviewer, even if their other roles are also to investigate and to put things together. What the forensic experiential trauma interview methodology allows us to do is stay very, very specifically in information collection. So within that, we have some, you know, pieces of our framework. It's science-based. That's very, very important for us because that as that changes, as the neuroscience and, you know, the information about the brain comes out about memory and encoding and retrieval, we wanna make sure that we are actually are applying that and it's not taking years and years to be able to bring that into our methodologies. And then we have something called opportunities for information, and that's the bulk of the methodology. It's talking about using brain-based cues, very specific, we call them systems of security, to provide a lot of options for the people who are stepping forward and giving information to be able to actually have that information collected, but also have it documented accurately. So for us, it's very, very specifically not an investigations practice. It's all about information collection. Kristina Supler: And what are the, the realms in which the applications for use of FETI methodology, criminal cases, school cases, a mix? Carrie Hull: Yeah, it's definitely a mix. It started out very much focused within sexual violence cases. So this was born out of law enforcement, specifically out of the Department of Defense in the Army. One of our instructors who was very active still with us, Lori Hyman, was the first one to actually use the FETI methodology within an investigation. And that was within the Army criminal command. And, and that was focused around sexual violence cases predominantly. So it started out being used with people who were stepping forward and either identified themselves or identified by someone else as a victim. What it has grown into in mainly because we wanna enhance that neutrality. Our learning was that this needed to not focus so much on what somebody was saying they were, or putting them into a box, but just trying to really gather the experience of what they are saying happened in a really three-dimensional way. Then we take that information and we move it into another system. That could be an investigation, that also could be a hiring process. I do a lot of work, surprisingly. I I did never intend for this to be the case in human resources. We use this a lot within human resources. So the applications are endless. It really is focused on if somebody has had an experience, being able to gather that and document it accurately. Susan Stone: Carrie, I have a question that drives me crazy when I listen to interviews and it's how should fact gatherers? 'cause I'm not gonna call you investigators. I'm learning, try to elicit information as to the ultimate issue without being too obvious. So for example, if you ask somebody, did you steal the cookie? What do you expect? No, no. With crumbs all over. And the reason I say that is we were just involved in an investigation where there were just blanket denials. And I can't help but think that the reason everyone was just denying was because the questions were just too conclusive. Kristina Supler: Did you do this really bad thing? It's true. Yeah. Yeah. Carrie Hull: Well, and, and for me, it's so funny when I hear stuff like this because it just takes me back to the beginning of my career as a detective. Well, even prior to that as an officer. And I wish that I had this understanding then, because I used to, you know, find myself in very similar situations. And it was frustrating for everybody. 'cause you just didn't seem like you were able to do anything with it. Right? You just had people on one end denying people on one end, assuming, and then not a lot of information being shared in between, which is not helpful. So if I just use the cookie analogy, I'll just use that as an example. Let's say you have somebody that has res all over their face, right? And you have somebody who's accusing them of taking a cookie that they weren't supposed to have.  And so what we would say with FETI is move back from looking and making the accusation, because you might be wrong, right? The experience of the crumbs could have come from numerous other things other than a stolen cookie. Some of them might be unlikely, but it doesn't mean that they're impossible. And so we really just focus on gathering what that experience was for the person. So if I was walking up and interviewing the person who had crumbs all over their face, I might start out by saying, you know, help me understand how you feel right now instead of accusing them of doing something. Because just like what you mentioned, that's not one gonna be probably the most fruitful way to do it. But more importantly, you might be wrong. And what you're doing by, by going into that sort of investigative focus, driving towards an answer is you're losing all the information that helps you ultimately get to the answer. So what we've found is by just backing away from trying to, you know, connect the dots, we say in FETI, we collect the dots. We do not connect them. This is a massive shift from where we started when, when FETI was in its infancy, we used to use this analogy of puzzle pieces. And we used to say like, you're gathering the puzzle pieces. And the instructors would go up in front of the room and they would like throw a puzzle up in the air and do this big, you know, explanation of some puzzle pieces are upside down and right side up. And the goal right in the interview is to be able to gather them and put them together. That was so misinformed. And, and this is one of the things I love about this methodology, is we're, we're not guardians of it. We want it to change. And as neuroscientists push back, as practitioners push back, we realized, no, our goal as an interviewer is not to put the puzzle together. Our goal is just to collect the dots. So we, we say in our training that the dots are information, we collect them, we do not connect them. Connecting the dots is what you do in the investigation after you've collected that information. So to go back to that cookie analogy, I would just collect as much information as I could. You know, help me understand what I'm able to see on your face right now, and then let them answer. Right? Let them, even if let's just say they are absolutely fabricating, they, they come up with whatever it is. You know, aliens came down from outer space and rubbed a cookie all over my face, right? I'll just give a ridiculous one. Okay, tell me more about the aliens. And genuinely we're not gonna say that, you know, with any sort of judgment, we're not gonna say anything with that because that's not my role.  My role is to document whatever they're able to share with me at that time, and then to really, really be able to allow them space in that experience. And if that is a fabrication or a lie, that's okay, I'm gonna document that. That's just as important to take forward into an investigative process to be able to corroborate or refute that as, you know, this sort of feeling that we need to solve it in the moment. And once I realized that I didn't need to have the answer in the interview, life just got so much more effective. And it actually got simpler. My job was actually what it truly was, which was to interview. What I see people do instead is they call an an interview, you know, this form of gathering information. But when I review it, when I evaluate these, they are absolutely investigating. They're not interviewing, and they've completely bypassed the interview at all. And they've moved right, to trying to draw conclusions. So that's really what the methodology does, is it, it puts those kind of breaks and those reminders on the practitioner to truly go in and gather. Susan Stone: So you don't make credibility calls. Carrie Hull: We do not within the interview. Now, in other functions of like my work, I will absolutely be part of that process. But what I would say to my team if I'm working with them or myself, is I, have I gathered enough to be able to make that credibility assessment, right? So it is, and it can be pretty fluid, you know, as a police officer, we work all the time with people that are patrol and we work, you know, we don't ever encourage somebody to like say to the person they're interacting with right now, I'm doing an interview with you, right? And hold on, I need to stop and now I'm gonna be doing an investigation. That's absolutely not what we're saying. These are fluid principles and processes that you might be moving in and out of sometimes within a very short period of time. I'll give you a really quick example. We never anticipated this to be used, be used with paramedics. This a hundred percent was first for law enforcement and detectives. And we started seeing these paramedics coming to our trainings, and I remember I got to talk to some of them and I said, you know, one of our cues help me understand using this methodology in your work. And they started talking about just little tweaks that they were able to make to the questions that they're asking of their patients. And, you know, this was always the pushback we got is, I don't have time to do this. It takes too much time. And I love this example because it shows that it's really, the onus is on the practitioner for the words coming outta their mouth for how the data's collected. So they have somebody in the back of an ambulance and they said, they've just modified from before. They would say, where are you injured? Instead, now they've shifted to, what are you able to tell me about your body right now? And it's such a distinct and important difference. It costs the same amount of time to say, but what I'm told is they get so much more valuable information because one is asking for a conclusion, and it's also asking for a patient to be able to assess what injury is. That is a complicated thing for a brain, let alone if they're experiencing some sort of physical event to their body. So instead they say, what are you able to tell me about your body right now? And they're, yes, some of the information may not be relevant, but a lot of it is. And then they can pass all that information off to the ER staff who then are essentially, you know, the equivalent of the investigators that are gonna take that intel and decide whether it's relevant and whether it's needed for their assessment. So I, I really see that as sort of this enlightening of separating out the investigation from the interview. Kristina Supler: It's interesting to hear you speak so much about, I like the phrase collect dots, don't connect the dots. Yeah. It, when students come to us, particularly in the Title IX realm, and we're sort of preparing to embark on navigating the student through the process, oftentimes we're just engaging in information gathering and, and trying to identify what evidence might be out there. And so often, particularly with sex cases of any type, we're met with the response. Well, it, it was just, there was just two of us alone in a room. So who's to say it's one person's word against another? Carrie, I'd like to hear from you what sort of damage can occur when an investigator in Title IX case frames a case as a a, he said, she said, or something along those lines during an interview. Carrie Hull: Oh, it's my most hated phrase, and there's a lot of things that I don't like hearing, but he said, she said is just one that crawls up my back and, and gives me the worst feeling. So what I will say when I'm working with investigators specifically, and, and I get a lot of pushback for this, some of them take it very personally, and I think they should. But I am adamant if you as an investigator are ever saying it's a he said, she said case. Now, again, I'm talking as an investigator. Unfortunately society uses this term way too much. But as a professional, if you are using the term he said, she said, what you are communicating to me loud and clear is that you are very bad at your job. So if I, if I work with somebody, well, because what, what you have communicated, if you say, I have a he said, she said case one, the gendered problem is right there out, out as the front. But let's just say it is somebody stepping forward who identifies as a male and somebody identifies as a female. All you are telling me is that you have done two things in that case at best, you've talked to the female and you've talked to the male, you haven't investigated anything. So you don't have a case. You have two interviews. That's not a he said, she said case. And so that's where I say, you are really bad at your job if you said you have a, he said, she said case. There is always something to corroborate or refute, even in the cases that seemingly have very little information, you need to actually put the time and work in. This requires effort. These investigations require effort. And so if you are just going forward and you're taking a, you know, the report from one person and you're going and talking to the other person, and you're not doing anything else to corroborate or refute the information that's gathered in those, you don't have a case, you have two interviews and you just need to be accurate in your documentation that that's all you did. Susan Stone: 2 What I worry about in terms of what is considered cooperation, it's often bringing up prior mud slinging character evidence saying, oh, well she has a reputation of X, he has a reputation of Y and therefore they must have behaved a certain way at the incident in question. And so I agree with you, there are, it is limited when you frame something as, let's say they said, they said to be more neutral, but I also get worried what we consider to be valid corroborating evidence. Carrie Hull: Sure. And again, that's where I separate out the interview from the investigation, because now we're talking about drawing conclusions, we're talking about bringing that in. And instead, if somebody said to me, I just go immediately to my, my interviewer mind when I hear somebody say like mud slinging, for instance. And that's, of course this happens and it's horrible and it shouldn't, well, let's just go with the reality of it happening. If somebody came to me in one of my investigations and they said something like that, well, this person A, here's the reason that they should not be believed. I am going, Ooh, this is another opportunity for an interview. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask permission, you know, would you be willing to sit down and tell me more about that? Because when it is truly just the quote unquote mudslinging, right, there's no real relevancy. It falls apart in a really good professional interview when you have somebody who's skilled and knows what they're doing, or you can at least get back to this is where that credibility potential comes in. And at least now you're taking all those dots and you're offering them to whoever is the finder of fact or whoever's making that determination so that they have more than just a one or two word statement, which is traditionally what I see now that should not be entered in there, but, but there could be really good intel underneath that, right? Help me understand more about this, whatever that is. And I'm gonna have them explore it. And if it comes into, it's just an opinion, we don't really weigh opinions in our investigations very much. There needs to be more than that. We don't disregard it. We include everything that somebody gives us. But again, it's for that professional finder of fact that needs to determine the weight of it. Kristina Supler: Carrie, what role does body language play in both an interview and then I guess subsequently in an investigation because they're very different roles? Carrie Hull: Yeah, so for us as an interviewer, any sort of somatic response is again, just an opportunity. We, we really, this is a huge part of the framework where we talk about opportunities for information. We don't draw any conclusions about it. We just gather it and we document it. For instance, I do a lot of human trafficking work. There's just a ton of, you know, investigations that I get invited into to do the interviews for both people who are accused of being involved in human trafficking and people who are, you know, stepping forward as a victim of it or identified as a victim. And in those interviews, it is very, very common for there to be body movement, right? So, you know, as we're going in and, and they're, they're sort of inviting us into their experience. We'll do a lot of tell me mores. And as somebody's talking about it, I will might see them touch a part of their body. Sometimes it could be outside of their awareness, sometimes it could, it's not for me to determine that, but for instance, I might see them do this, right? Touch their wrist or do something like this. Now that can just be something that somebody does that could just be that they do that frequently when they talk. Or it might be something that is connected to the memory of what they're telling me about. My job as the interviewer is not to make a determination. My job is to cue to it. Now, what I won't do in an interview is I won't point out, oh, I see you that you're rubbing your wrist because that's leading, that's the same as a leading question. And I don't wanna do that. What I will say instead is, when appropriate, without interrupting them, what, if anything, are you able to tell me about your wrist at that time? Right? If they're talking about a specific event occurring, I'm, I'm going to, as long as they have a wrist, it's not leading right. But I'm not gonna point out that they're doing that movement now based on how that was encoded for them based on their memory. It may be that that then jumps off into a memory that they're able to tell me about or something relating to the event. There may also be nothing there. And so by not pointing it out, but queuing to it instead, I haven't done anything to sort of change their memory or alter it. I've just given them an opportunity to enhance it without me being the director of that. My job as a really skilled interviewer is just to be sitting with them and hearing and collecting not to ever be giving anything back. We call it within FETI unidirectional interviewing. We as the interviewer, should never under any circumstances, put something into that interview. We should walk away from that interview fully, just with things they gave to us. So you would, Susan Stone: Well, it's so funny, your unidirectional interviewing has led me to a thought. And I'm wondering, when you're looking at body language or the way people frame responses, how do you filter in or filter out implicit bias? Kristina Supler: Oh, that's a good question. Carrie Hull: Yeah, it's incredibly hard and it really requires a lot of practice on the part of the practitioner. We rely on something we call the never again 10. And again, it's, it's a system for us that is baked in to hopefully interrupt that and keep it from happening. We do acknowledge humans are human, and so you're never gonna have it perfect, but the goal needs to be neutrality. So for instance, one of the requirements of the never again 10 is you do not ever offer any personal information or advice. So there is just no, it's not at all allowed, especially at an advanced level for FETI, I would say most of our basic practitioners really avoid this as well. That really helps For any of that. Again, going into these interviews, my ideal situation is not to know anything about what happened. That can be harder depending on how involved I've been with the investigation.  But I'll give you a just an example. If I get called to deploy to something, usually something's gone wrong, right? There's usually a mass casualty incident or something's been really bad, they're not usually calling in outside interviewers unless something's gone wrong. And they will often call me up and say, Hey, here's what happened. I have to stop them and say, Nope, I don't wanna know anything about what happened. I try and go into those interviews as blind as possible, as neutral, as much of a blank slate, whatever, you know, you want to use as that. And that's a very different, when I was a detective working on the homicide team, we would sit around for, I mean, days, weeks, coming up with every question that we wanted, reading every report we could get our hands on everything we could to formulate our questions. And what that did was really increased the chances for bias. And what it also did is gave us the feeling like we already knew the answer and we were driving to something. So instead, we really try and go in as neutral as possible. Kristina Supler: So you're making me think back to the anecdote you mentioned of paramedics and like, oh my gosh, we're responding to a 911 call. There's cars and bodies on the side of the road. We don't have time. We have to get information fast. And hearing you talk about going into interviews as a blank slate, I'm just imagining, again, in, in our world, in campus, title IX proceedings interviews conducted with this methodology. I, I would think they take a really long time. Is that accurate? Carrie Hull: I, I mean it, it's everything above, right. You know, so I can go in, I might have been working with a team for three years and our human trafficking work is a really great example. I have tons of knowledge of that case. And so it's on me to remind myself before I go into these interviews, I literally will have a process that just works for me. I'm a very visual person as I'm walking to the interview, even if it's a phone, if it's a, a zoom, whatever it is in person, I actually mentally bulldoze the information I think I know out of my head just for that interview piece to the best that I can. Now you're still gonna have stuff that creeps in and that's when you're gonna see potentially a leading question or something like that. But as my skill has gotten better, I've really gotten better about being able to do that. And it can be quick too. We work with our, you know, like I mentioned, our patrol officers on traffic stops, you know, they, they on viewed something that made them make a determination to, to make that, whether it was a field contact or a, you know, they stopped a vehicle. So they have that information. What we encourage them to do, just very quickly, same as the, you know, paramedics just go up there and just remind yourself that you don't know everything and you're just collecting, you already have this other facts that you've observed. And that's fine. We're not saying throw it away, but go up into that, that sort of interview, even if it's a very quick one, that information collection and just be open because there might be some other reason that this happened that you're not aware of often there is. And it's gonna give you so much more access to that. And you can always bring that other information back in very quickly. Write the ticket, you know, do whatever you need to do, but engage with that person and see if they're willing to share with you about their experience. Because they had an experience too. You observed something, but they also contributed to whatever this interaction is. And we wanna hear from them. We just don't wanna, you know, diagnose it or we don't want to make a determination about it until we give them a chance to engage with us about it. Susan Stone: It's really a mindset FETI. Yeah. Versus, it's not the same as telling an attorney when you frame questions don't lead, right. Open versus closed. Open versus closed question. It's really just having that mindset of being open to whatever you're going to hear. But as we close the investigation of you, oh, any CSI TV moments that you'd like to share with our listeners out there? Carrie Hull: 4 Oh gosh, I don't know if there's anything I'm allowed to share. I'm under about a hundred different non-disclosures. Oh, Kristina Supler: Come on. I bet you've got the best stories at cocktail parties. That's terrible. You can't share anything with our, you know, I literally- Carrie Hull: Don't think I have Susan Stone: Hundreds of thousands of your best friends. They out. No, no doubt. No one Carrie Hull: I wish I could secret. There's a lot of things that I wish that people knew. And you know, what I will say is that you would think that with the work that I'm exposed to and all these things that I hear, 'cause you get, really get to get in to people. A lot of people are surprised that I'm not more pessimistic. And I will actually say this work has made me the most optimistic about just humans that I've ever been. Because when you allow someone to sit down and truly share their experience without judgment, no matter what side they're on, whether they're accused of something or whether they've had something happen to them, you really get such a better understanding of the human behavior. And that has given me a lot of optimism. I see that we're gonna be much better at this, and we have these skills and these tools now that weren't available to me when I started my career. So I do wish that people had the opportunity to hear what I hear. I do think that if you use something like this, it doesn't have to be FETI, right? But something that is truly neutral, truly around information gathering, it's gonna make all this work that we're involved in that's really difficult. Just a little bit better. Susan Stone: Oh, I love ending on that. Kristina Supler: Optimistic. I was just gonna say, I think that's, let's end on a positive note. That's great, Carrie. It was really, thanks Karen, a lot of fun to talk with you today and I'm so interested in your work and what you do. I think it's wonderful. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Christina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode. And leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram, just search our handle at Stone Souper and for more resources, visit us online at studentdefense.KJK.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our Real Talk community. We'll see you next time.  

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Real Talk podcast is joined by Hank Nuwer, a renowned anti-hazing journalist, author, and scholar with over four decades of experience. He is known for his unwavering dedication to eradicating hazing culture and has authored many influential books on the subject. Hank maintains a comprehensive database of hazing deaths and continues to be a leading voice in raising awareness and advocating for prevention efforts in colleges and beyond. He is a respected authority on hazing and has conducted extensive research and interviews to shed light on this issue.   Show Notes: ●     Sharing personal experiences with hazing (01:20) ●     Analyzing the role of institutions in hazing prevention (05:10) ●     Highlighting the importance of education and awareness (08:15) ●     Should schools abolish Greek life or fraternity sororities? (10:25) ●     Discussion about different types of hazing (13:00) ●     How to define hazing (13.40) ●     How hazing manifests in different organizations (15:00) ●     Hank discusses his books and plays (19:00) ●     Hank discusses future projects (20:30) ●     Positive turn around stories from institutions (21:52) ●     Experiences at other universities (23:50) ●     How can we get coaches involved (25:00) ●     How lonliness factors into hazing (26:30) ●     Conclusion (28:00) Transcript:   Kristina Supler: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Christina Supler. We are full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real, candid conversations. Susan Stone: Today's podcast is going to tackle the issue of hazing and what a lot of you out there may not know is that Christina and I have looked at hazing from many different perspectives in our career. We have defended accused of hazing. We've actually been asked to help a Greek organization against accusations of hazing. And we have represented victims of hazing. So we have a real 360, don't Christina? Kristina Supler: We do and we're, as our listeners may know, we're located in Ohio, but we handle cases across the country. And what's interesting is that Ohio has been a real hotbed of this activity, though, of course, it happens in students across the country are dealing with these sorts of issues. So we're excited to jump into this topic today. Susan Stone: I really am too. And I am super excited about the guest we have. I feel very fortunate. I want all our listeners know before we give our name out that we reach out to him or her. And we just kept at it because I really wanted this guest on the podcast. So with that, why don't you do the intro? Kristina Supler: Sure. We are joined today by Hank Newer, who is a renowned anti-hazing journalist, author and scholar, known for his unwavering dedication to eradicating hazing culture. With over four decades of experience, he's authored many influential books. He maintains a comprehensive database of hazing deaths. And he continues to be a leading voice in raising awareness and advocating for prevention efforts in colleges and beyond. Welcome, Hank. We're so happy to have you with us today. Hank Newer: Thank you. I'm very pleased to be here. Susan Stone: And I got to add. We just learned Hank lives in Alaska. So we got a little northern exposure going on here. So I love it. But with Hank, let's kick it off. How did hazing become your career focus? Hank Newer: Not because I was hazed, but because I was at the University of Nevada, Reno. And we had a hazing death that was just off campus. But I had seen the initiation. At that time, hazing was rampant, not against the law in a lot of places. I had seen the initiation on campus. And then at a campus bar, I saw someone passed out at a pool table. He was foaming at the mouth. The organization was called the Sun Downers. And their alumni are some of the leading citizens in Nevada. The initiation consisted of making people drink ever clear. And they would throw a match at their lips. So a lot of people were-- Susan Stone: Oh my gosh. Hank Newer: Yeah, that was supposed to be funny. Kristina Supler: That's shocking. Hank Newer: It was. So the person that was foaming I got them to take him and walk him. But I think if I had called the police or so, they wouldn't have done it another time. And John Davies might still be alive. So they did it one more time. And they did this one, not in public. They went to an Indian reservation. And John Davies died, and another pledge was without oxygen for a while. And so I've done database reporting since the 70s. So I made a database of all the hazing deaths that were out there. And editor friend of mine put me in touch with Human Behavior Magazine. And so in the mid 70s, that first article came out. And I kept the database going ever since. Susan Stone: Wow. I can't even respond. Kristina Supler: I think your database is really an important resource. And tell us more about how you receive information and reports that you put into your database. And how do you verify the accuracy of this information? Hank Newer: It's actually time consuming. I also on the page have a long list of deaths that are not considered hazing deaths, but appeared in the press as deaths. Some of these, in particularly around 1900, were with sensational reporting. And I had to track them to find out if these really did occur. So mostly it's from media reports. But people get in touch all the time. If there's a death, the chances of me talking to the parents within two or three days are very good. They're going to be calling for information. And now I would say it's the most difficult part of doing this job. But it was a lot of time. And it was very expensive in the 70s. I had a pay for Lexus Nexus myself. I paid the New York Times for their database. And I started a list serve in the 80s. And people were sending in information on that list serve, which you still could find some places online. So I just kept that over and over. And the good thing about being so public, if people disagree or want to talk about it, it's all out there with full disclosure, where the information comes from. Kristina Supler: That's the purpose of the database. Hank Newer: Because in the set, as I said before, there were a lot of deaths that did not occur that were listed. People were taking any alcohol related death at all and calling it hazing. And so I was trying to break down the details as much as anything else. The next database I'll do will be all these sexual haze and cases involving athletes. And I hope to have that done next year. Susan Stone I'm sure you're thinking about that because of the Yates versus Northwestern case, am I correct? Hank Newer: You have a lot of phone calls about that. Kristina Supler: And we're seeing a real rise in those sorts of cases in our practice that we handle the issue from all different angles. So I think that's really important work you're doing. Susan Stone: I applaud you. What I want to know in your work because we address this, so I'm going to ask you a very selfish question, because I want to know the answer. But I'm sure Christina does too. So much of hazing is shrouded in secrecy and the members of hazing protect each other. What's the best way for a person who's a victim of hazing to gather the evidence to expose what's going on, especially in a culture of silence? Hank Newer: The way I try to do things is I go to the alums, people who've graduated a year or two earlier. And that's very, very quickly after a death when I'm doing a story. Talking to the alums, yes, some of them will close, you know, shut the phone on you, but others will talk about it. And it's a good way of getting into the middle. I try to talk to the advisors and get information from them. And if you just talk to people on campus, hazing isn't as shrouded in secrecy as you think. People are going to be talking to their significant others. So it's not the secret that fraternity members would like to think that it is. Susan Stone: For sports organizations, correct? Hank Newer: Yeah, for sport, well, one of the big problems is they don't consider it as hazing Kristina Supler: No, we know. We got it. We got it. I just wanted to comment that I think it's also important to point out, and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts. I think often hazing is sort of conceptually conceived of as just happening among young men in fraternities. And in fact, it spans across all student organizations, entities, athletic teams, military groups. And it's also not exclusively a male issue. I mean, Susan and I have plenty of case experiences involving female athletes in hazing. Can you talk a little bit more about what you're seeing in the breakdown? And is there any rise in female hazing in your research? Susan Stone: Generally, what are the trends? Hank Newer: Yeah, I don't really see a rise. I think it's consistent. We've not had a death this year or last year, but we've had so many close calls. So people would like to think that we have a trend of deaths ending. We don't. The people were lucky. Maybe what's happening is they're quicker to call 911 and not to just drop somebody off at the hospital where a few deaths have happened. Susan Stone: Or leave them at the foot of the stairs like at Penn State? Hank Newer: Yeah. Well, that-- he was just left alone there. But several times, members have gotten frightened and taken somebody to the hospital and just dropped them off at the emergency. And it's too late at that particular point. From what I saw in the one case, people went from standing up to being dead drunk and just short amount of time. So they're talking, talking, talking, and then suddenly, it hits them. That case of foaming at the mouth was the most dramatic that I've ever seen. Kristina Supler: I can't imagine. I just can't imagine what that must have been like and how that experience has obviously stayed with you. Hank, I'm curious. I'd like to hear your thoughts on whether you think schools should abolish Greek life fraternity sororities? Or do you think that there's value in these organizations? Hank Newer: With certainty, abolish pledging. Not abolish Greek life. I taught 18 years of Franklin College. We didn't have any incidents. I was the advisor to the honor society there, which is male and female. And we had positive initiations that could not in any way shape or form be considered hazing. And the students brought their parents or grandparents to the ceremony. But for me, it's like a mathematical equation, pledging, becomes hazing as pledging becomes hazing. In terms of sports, get rid of the word rookie and stop this dominant subordinate culture that we have out there. And the other is a lot of the coaches will either turn their heads or say, don't take it too far. And that is very, very common. Now, it's very, very dangerous for coaches to do that. If you say, don't take it too far, and you're allowing it. And if alcohol is involved, it is going to go too far. Susan Stone: Hank, just to kind of turn the question and turn the dial a little differently, there are the extreme cases of alcohol. The one you described you witness is horrific. And we've also worked on some pretty scary cases. But I have to say, we've also worked on cases where activities were labeled as hazing and taken as this serious infraction. I don't know. I didn't think it was so serious. I want to give you an example and get your response. We worked on a case where there was a pledging and when the pledges went active, there was a champagne shower. Like they do after car racing. Kristina Supler:  Yeah, it celebrates. Susan Stone: That was investigated for being hazing. I don't think that's hazing. What do you think? Hank Newer: I broke it out out into criminal hazing and non-criminal hazing. Certainly, with something that you're describing, I would have never gotten into this kind of thing. The hazing that I had as a fraternity member was being dropped off in the country. We knew about it ahead of time and had money to call friends. So when you look at it that way, you don't think it's so bad. But then you look at Grove City College in Pennsylvania. Four pledges were killed and aligned as they were walking. And actually, alcohol wasn't involved for them when they were in the middle of nowhere. So the problem is that what would look like innocent fun, sometimes things go wrong. In that case, it's a hard line between what's hazing and what's an accident. And in talking to fraternity advisors, you can't punish the same way. You can't punish somebody for having a pledge pen, the same way that you would for having them drink a handle of alcohol. But in some cases, hazing is hazing, and it's punished that way. It doesn't make any sense at all. Susan Stone: So how do you define hazing? Hank Newer: And hazing to me would be any activity that's silly, dangerous, or repulsive, that's done to newcomers by veterans in order to bring them into the organization. Susan Stone: Why silly? Kristina Supler:  Is it because you think it's humiliating and embarrassing? Hank Newer: We're talking about the things that you said were not so bad. Like for me, I think it says something about male attitudes toward women when baseball players make each other dress up and go on to play in women's clothing or so on. But what about singing a song? Singing your fight song?  That was in the movie, Paper Lion. Alex Karris was in that particular movie. George Plympton, who I interviewed about it, was pretending to be a player, a quarterback on the Detroit Lions, and he brought out a lot of that. So that kind of culture is still there. The only problem is, and there's no real study on it, our people going to take it farther if you have this kind of dominance. Somehow it got into from singing to tying people up to a goal post. And these are big, burly guys fighting back in people have been injured. Or hockey, it's gotten sexualized as you probably have seen in your research. Susan Stone: We have. Hank Newer: Band is very physical. Look at the death of Robert Champion. And when you were talking about different kinds, so when I'm talking to parents in 2018 in South Carolina, the parents were of a band member, their fraternity members. Interestingly enough, no sorority moms have gotten involved. I don't know exactly why it is, but the activists are the parents of fraternity members. And Kathleen Wyatt, for example, in Ohio is a big actress.  Yeah, yeah, a lot. And before I took Robert Fairbanks, by the way, I was the editor of the Solana paper. Kristina Supler:  Many of our listeners are parents of high school and college students. And so based on your experience and knowledge with this subject, what are some of the warning signs that parents, but also students should be aware of and look out for regarding hazing within organizations? Hank Newer: Well, there's like a personality change, a good way that a young woman put it, who was hazed at DuPau with having cigarettes put between our legs and burnt. Susan Stone: That's torture. Hank Newer: That one was interesting. It was Kappa Kappa Gamma. They were members of a family within the organization. And this happened at Chico State too, where the family has their choice of alcohol. One death, Adrian Hydeman at Chico State, it was brandy. These young women, I can't remember what their alcohol was, but they had to drink that particular liquor. And so with that particular case, the warning signs were that she lost her bubbliness, and that's the best description I could give. That she, the young woman, had been dancing. She grew up with ballet. When I interviewed her, she was working in a pizza parlour. And she had put on a bit of weight with stress. And that was one interview. Another young woman who fought back and later got her PhD in family studies fought back. So people have just different kinds of reactions. Mine with the case of having to go out, I didn't really think that much about it. Because we had somebody pick us up right away. But if somebody had gotten killed on one of those marches, I'd be looking at it differently. If the death hadn't occurred at Nevada Reno, I certainly never would have written about hazing. Susan Stone: You have written four books, is that correct? Hank Newer: Yeah, four books. And then I have a novel which has a hazing of Basques and Chinese in the early United States. Susan Stone: And you've also written a play, correct the broken pludge? Hank Newer: Yes, it was a winner of an Anne Frank Award at Buffalo State University. It used to be Buffalo State College. And I got to put my one man play on. And I put that play on for athletes. And I call it Death Of A Rookie. And then there's the Broken Pledge, which is about fraternity members. But it's pretty much the same. A grandfather, buries his grandson that day, and this overcome with grief, hatred, asking where God was when this occurred, losing his faith, and then turning it around with quotations that were in his son's diary from Martin Luther King. So I hope it's as powerful as I think. Susan Stone: Well, I have to tell you, I watched a lot of it. And I thought it was incredibly poignant. How is it that you keep able to turn out content on this one issue and see so many angles and sides of it? It's impressive. Hank Newer: Yeah, I think part of it is by talking to the parents and experts and people that are in the Greek world, they have the insights too. So I had interviewed Louis Lamore one time and he said, it's not that we're so clever, we're a sponge, we're a filter, and we take all of this in. So I think I have to give credit to other people for their perspective and how they see things, but I do have a good memory. Kristina Supler:  What's next for you, Hank, on the horizon of this project? Hank Newer: Okay, so we'll be doing that database that I told you about with sexual hazing. I have a chapter coming out for the University of Toronto, Cress out in 2024 with my own experiences which will be on athletic hazing. I am putting together in the garage about all these files, putting together all the hazing incidents I can find and to do those as a database as well. It's a little more difficult when you're working as an editor than when you're teaching. The amount of free time is not quite as much. And now it's politics coming up elections. You know, Ohio and Alaska, I won't have as much time at all this weekend, I'll be in that office constantly. Kristina Supler: This is, we've talked a lot, a lot of heavy things and we always like to give our listeners something a little positive as well when, you know, contemplating our various topics. So can you share with us in your experience any success stories of schools, institutions, and specific organizations that have really tackled this issue of hazing and essentially turned a really negative situation into a positive to recreate culture surrounding this issue? Hank Newer: Yes, Alfred University did that. They had the death of Chuck Stenzel, which was the subject of my book Broken Pledges, came out in 1989. But they got rid of the Greek system also. And there were a lot of lawsuits with that.Dr. Norm Pollard and a colleague of his, we were the ones that did the first high school hazing surveys. They also did surveys of fraternity members. I got to help write the questions for that, but they did most of the work. That was a big, big turnaround. And the impetus was not only the death of Chuck Stenzel, they had a bad football hazing. And I don't think they lost the season, but they did suspend the team for a game or two. So yes, that was a turnaround. My personal story is I spoke at Penn State, and not two weeks later at Penn State, I got a phone call from the advisor at that particular time to say that the sorority, not hazing, had a woman take way too much alcohol, near point four BAC. Kristina Supler:  Oh my gosh, wow. Hank Newer: The young women did not want to make the call. And one person who heard the, they all heard the talk, one person insisted, and they saved this young woman's life. Kristina Supler:  And it only takes one person. It only takes one student to reach out for help that by standard intervention to stop something horrific. Hank Newer: And it only takes one idiot in the room, sometimes, who's, especially if that person is physically powerful to cause all these bad things as well. You hear that over and over again. So when there was a death of a lacrosse player at Western Illinois University, the punishment for the players, which was interesting, they were all fraternity members too, was to have a writer come in and go through the hazing with them, not the alcohol related part, which was 15 bottles put on stands, but to go into the river, to go marching through, to go to the house, so I'd be able to write about that. In a way, I felt like I was punished as well, because I did that at my own expense. And then it went into a book. But over and over, what's the point? The point is they kept pointing to the student coach who not only did this, but instigated so that they would get the team credit card and put gas into their own vehicles. And each one had the same story. I thought somebody else would step up. Over and over, I kept hearing that same thing. And guess what? The instigator would not talk to me. He never went to jail, either. The judge did not follow through. But yeah, there was one perpetrator who was the prime mover. Susan Stone: How can we get coaches to get on board? Kristina Supler:  Great question. Hank Newer: Really difficult. So I talked at a Quaker school in Delaware, athletic director, a female, really against all kind of hazing, really working football coach. The veteran comes up to me later and said, yeah, this is all fine, but we're not going to take it too far. I thought, geez, you just heard this whole talk. You saw the pictures of the kids on the screen and you're going to tell me this. And so then also when I was at Regis in Denver, I was talking, the athletic director was very much against it, talking to the different coaches. And I asked the coach, after what would happen if you heard there was hazing on your team, would you punish them? And he said, starter or reserve? Kristina Supler:  I was just going to say, I mean, obviously, in particularly collegiate athletics and big schools, coaches are often evaluated based on their winning record. And so it's decision for them to make when a hazing perpetrator is also a star athlete. We just hope that the coach makes the right choice in terms of promoting student safety versus thinking about wins and losses over truly in the long run, what's best for the team from a cultural perspective and student safety perspective. Susan Stone: I think that especially as kids just went back to school, everybody wants to feel a sense of belonging. People can be a very lonely place, both high school and college. And we have to train people that abuse is not the way to bond. Hank Newer: And here in Fairbanks, there was a case I never heard about until I came here where the football coach called it team bonding to have the players jump into the swimming pool and take off all their clothes to switch it to everything, put them back on while in the pool and there were three near deaths. And he forbid his assistants to jump into the water until it was almost too late. And yes, he lost his job, but I never heard about it because our paper in covering it called it what he called it, a team building or team bonding. Susan Stone: Right. Hank Newer: I've written about that since and called it hazing exactly what it is. Kristina Supler:  It's been a pleasure speaking with you today, Hank. And I think that you're obviously a wealth of knowledge on this topic. So we really appreciate your knowledge and insights and encourage our listeners to check out your wealth of material on the topic as well, your books and your database. You are worth the weight. Susan Stone: You are worth the wait. Really. Thank you so much. Kristina Supler:  Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Christina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode. And leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram, just search our handle @StoneSoupler. And for more resources, visit us online at studentdefense.kjk.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our Realtalk community. We'll see you next time. —----------------------------------------------------------------------- Pull Quotes (Try to find a minimum of 4): ·         “I think often hazing is sort of conceptually conceived of as just happening among young men in fraternities. And in fact, it spans across all student organizations, entities, athletic teams, military groups. And it's also not exclusively a male issue. I mean, Susan and I have plenty of case experiences involving female athletes in hazing. Can you talk a little bit more about what you're seeing in the breakdown?” (08:25) ·         “I can't imagine. I just can't imagine what that must have been like and how that experience has obviously stayed with you. Hank, I'm curious. I'd like to hear your thoughts on whether you think schools should abolish Greek life fraternity sororities? Or do you think that there's value in these organizations?” (10:00) ·         “I broke it out out into criminal hazing and non-criminal hazing. Certainly, with something that you're describing, I would have never gotten into this kind of thing. The hazing that I had as a fraternity member was being dropped off in the country. We knew about it ahead of time and had money to call friends.” (12:20) ·         “I think that especially as kids just went back to school, everybody wants to feel a sense of belonging. People can be a very lonely place, both high school and college. And we have to train people that abuse is not the way to bond.” (26:41)  

We're back with all new episode for you. This one is different but we think you're going to like it! We had the opportunity to collaborate with Caleb Castro and Andrew, the hosts of the Once For All Delivered Podcasts. We talk about all kinds of things, including the Satanist religion, AI and it's issues and we even get into Sphere Sovereignty. Be sure to check out OFAD where ever you get your podcasts and to learn more head over to their website: www.onceforalldelivered.com/ If you like the Real Talk Podcast, we know you'll enjoy OFAD too!    A BIG THANKS TO OUR OFFICIAL SPONSOR, TRIVAN! WE APPRECIATE YOU HELPING US MAKE THIS CONVERSATION POSSIBLE. BE SURE TO CHECK THEM OUT AT WWW.TRIVAN.COM  To keep up with the podcast, check out our website: https://www.realtalkpodcast.ca/ Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for updates, clips, and more!  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ReformedRealTalk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reformedrealtalk/ We'd love to hear from you. Please send us your questions, comments, or other feedback at reformedrealtalk@gmail.com. Thanks for listening! If you liked what you heard, please share this podcast with your family and friends!

In this episode, Tim and Aaron are joined by Brandon Jones, cohost of the podcast “real nurses, real talk,” to look back at the COVID-19 pandemic to discuss some tough questions about the church and the medical community as well as reflect on the lessons we learned in this difficult season. Visit Where We Land online: www.whereweland.org SHOW NOTES:Real Nurses, Real Talk Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/real-nurses-real-talk/id1632085442

"There's no way I'm getting into real estate," Patrick thought to himself. This is the way Patrick starts his Bio on the website for his very successful Real Estate Team, Madigan Realty Co. in North Carolina.  With more nicknames than we can count on one hand, and Patrick's willingness to poke fun at himself, you can see why he has such success with his clients.  As well as make for a really fun Podcast Guest.  After graduating with a degree in architecture and spending five years in non-profits, Patrick's friend was urging him to consider real estate. Patrick dove in head-first once he realized it was the perfect combination of his gifts and passions. Sports Fandom, Real Estate, Mental Health and Tik Tok are just a few of the topics covered in this Episode of The Real Talk Podcast.  This is really one you do not want to miss. If you want to find out more about Patrick visit his Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/padigan Check out past episodes of Coffee With a Mega on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/@kwyptriangle4009

A Christmas message from the host Julian Perry

Another short and swell and last minute episode if I am being honest on unpopular opinions for the holidays. What is you opinion on Thanksgiving food? Should the Turkey actually be the meat of choice for this holiday? Do you really love casseroles?When should one put up a Christmas Tree, before or after Thanksgiving? What are your real thoughts on Christmas gifts, if we are being honest?Send me a DM and tell me how you really feel!Then we dive in to where I would like to see this podcast go .. random topic at the end of the podcast on an interesting perspective I heard today on emotional cheating. Check out my girl, Lauren's podcast, Real Talk Podcast linked here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/real-talk-with-rhyme-reason/id1647985708Don't forget to follow me on social @babbles_nonsenseUntil next time guys, BUH-BYE

The holidays are approaching and the Real Talk Podcast has you covered! The team discusses holiday stress and how to handle it. Plus, you can keep this week's story lineup in your back pocket for Thanksgiving table conversation: A Christmas Movie sequel, wild election results, and crazy in-laws (yes, even crazier than yours).

Are you a crime or murder podcast listener? If so, this one is for you. Kicking off season two of the Real Talk Podcast with all things Jeffrey Dahmer. *SPOILER ALERT* If you haven't watched all of the new Netflix series you may want to skip this episode. FOLLOW ALONG FOR MORE HERE: www.mattmathews.com https://www.instagram.com/matt_mathews --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/matt-mathews/support

Embrace THE SUCK [Part 3]: 5 daily habits and strategies that will unlock your hidden potential and transform your business and your life. In this video, we go over 2 strategies that have a major impact on your success as a real estate agent. GET Strategy 1-2: https://youtu.be/Ck8JBNHZnqwGET Strategy 3-4: https://youtu.be/zyTfi7i43uIStrategy 5: Tracking IS everything![Stay until the end for LIVE Q&A with Brendan Bartic and The Bartic Group]Are you struggling to manage your time? ⏰Do you dread making calls and lead generating?

Embrace THE SUCK [Part 2]: 5 daily habits and strategies that will unlock your hidden potential and transform your business and your life. In this video we go over 2 strategies that have a major impact on your success as a real estate agent. Strategy 1: Dominate Lead Follow-upStrategy 2: Prioritize other money-making activities...If you're not on appointments.Are you struggling to manage your time? ⏰Do you dread making calls and lead generating?

Welcome to Real Nurses, Real Talk Podcast - a podcast by a husband a wife duo who are also nurses. Together, we have over 30 years of nursing experience including bedside nursing, education, and leadership. Our goal each week is to provide you with unique insights and perspectives into this incredible profession called Nursing that will be sure to heal, empower, and inspire.

In this episode, Dr. Aaron Rock dissects and responds to the pro-lockdown positions of two Christian MPPs from Ontario. The recording of Real Talk Podcast interviewing MPP Sam Oosterhoff and MPP Will Bouma is available HERE. Supplemental Resources You can now hear Leadership Now on CJXC Radio at 11 AM Tuesdays and rebroadcast at 11 PM Thursdays. https://cjxc.ca/ We are excited to partner with the Fight Laugh Feast Network to reach more listeners. Download the app here: https://subsplash.com/fightlaughfeastnetwork/app Pursuit of Glory blog: https://pursuitofglory.org/

247 Real Talk Podcast host Julian Perry discusses the rent crisis that is looming in NYC and more!!

In this episode of Real Talk, KJK Student Defense Attorneys Susan Stone and Kristina Supler are joined by Dr. Beth Weinstock. She is a poet and physician, but foremost a mother of four whose eldest son Eli was murdered in March of 2021 when he unintentionally ingested fentanyl. With her daughter Oliva, they co-founded BirdieLight with a focus on educating students and their parents on the danger of fentanyl. The conversation includes how drug use extends beyond just partying, the stigma around the topic of students using drugs, and how any student can save lives. Links Mentioned In the Show: The BirdieLight Website Dr. Beth Weinstock's interview with Jake Tapper The KJK Website  Show Notes:   What are the dangers college students experience when experimenting with drugs and alcohol? (0:34) How a personal tragedy inspired the creation of the BirdieLight organization. (01:52)  How BirdieLight has created enormous momentum in its mission. (03:21) What is the common misconception of fentanyl that leads to parents underestimating its accessibility? (04:27) How did fentanyl rise to become such a popular drug? (05:05) How even stress and anxiety can indirectly lead to a student's involvement in fentanyl (06:53) What does BirdieLight do to bring young adults “closer to safe”? (09:09) How Dr. Weinstock combats the stigma when shedding light on the reality of fentanyl cases. (11:38) Is BirdieLight having an impact? (14:19) Why high schools are pushing back on BirdieLight's message. (16:48) Telling kids to, “just say no,” isn't going to cut it (17:11) What role does the rampant mental health crisis play in the rise of drug use? (19:21) How students can protect themselves and their friends using test strips to test for fentanyl (21:53) Why carrying Narcan can save lives (23:35) The serendipitous origin of the name BirdieLight (28:47) Transcript: Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We're full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real conversations. Today's topic is really going to be a very emotional topic today. We're here to talk about the fentanyl problem that is really impacting the health, welfare, and lives of students across the country, students and adults. But our practice focuses on what's happening with all students.  Kristina Supler: Susan, over the years, in our cases, we've represented students across the country. And I think we regularly see that particularly college students experimenting with drugs and alcohol it goes hand in hand. And while some students, I don't know, I guess can handle it. I think we also see a lot of students who really struggle with the substance abuse and don't recognize all the dangers that can go hand in hand with ingesting various substances. And I think in particular, one thing that we regularly see is sexual assault cases.  Susan Stone: Correct. We see, and we've talked about this on our podcast, a real uptick in mental health issues. And I don't want to say every case cause that's not accurate, but I think we can fairly say that most cases that we deal with, whether it's about sexual assault or any other form of student misconduct, somewhere in the picture is a use of, or misuse of alcohol or drugs.  Kristina Supler: We hear often from the students we work with that sometimes there's substance use or experimentation with drugs, for numbing and students just exploring life. And that's really what brings us to our topic and our speaker today. So Susan, why don't you do the introduction.  Susan Stone: We're here with Dr. Beth Weinstock who created an organization called BirdieLight to spread awareness about fentanyl use and this crisis that we have of students dying from the use of fentanyl. Dr. Weinstock, welcome to our show. Can you please just highlight what led to you creating your organization?  Dr. Weinstock: Sure. Thanks. And thank you so much for having me on your podcast today. I live in Columbus, Ohio. And I'm a mother and a physician. I have four children. My second oldest child, Eli Weinstock was a sophomore at American university. And on March 3rd, 2021 He took or experimented with some substance a pill or a powder. We're not sure. And he collapsed and died in his off-campus apartment in Washington DC.  Susan Stone: I'm so sorry. Really.  Dr. Weinstock: Thank you. Thank you. He was not struggling with addiction. He was, you know what? Our organization now likes to call an experimental or recreational substance user.  We were devastated. There's really not a lot of words to really explain what happened in my family. But six months later my daughter, Olivia, and I she's 22, and a recent college graduate decided to start an organization called BirdieLight. And the purpose of our organization is real simple. We just get in front of young adults, age 15 to 25, and parents, and we educate on the dangers of fentanyl; where it's found; how to avoid it; how to test for it. We are now four months old and the momentum is enormous. We really have found a niche and a real need in this crisis in our country. And, we aim to educate every young person in America about this crisis.  Kristina Supler: I think for a while now, families have heard on the news, stories about the opioid epidemic. And there have been many stories about fentanyl and it's dangers. However, I know Susan and I from the conversations we have with parents, it's pretty interesting how many parents don't know what fentanyl is. Or just have a belief that only certain populations would face the dangers posed by fentanyls. Oh, it would never touch my child's life. Beth, can you speak to what parents should know about fentanyl and why it's so dangerous?  Dr. Weinstock: Absolutely. So I think 10 years ago that maybe that misconception would have some truth to it. That 10 years ago, fentanyl was mostly found in heroin and mixed with heroin there are lots of people addicted to heroin who would periodically get fentanyl in their drug supply. And as time went on more and more fentanyl was found in heroin and now nearly all heroin has fentanyl in it. As a parent, it's easy to say that happens over there. That's not my kid. That's really a hardcore addiction situation that is not touching my family.  Well, what happened about maybe three years ago is that you started to see fentanyl infiltrating the drug landscape and in so many other ways. So you started to see it in methamphetamine. And then methamphetamine overdoses well, they're called methamphetamine overdoses, but they're actually fentanyl poisoning. Those started to increase. And then soon after that, you started to see it in counterfeit pills that were labeled as oxycodone, hydrocodone Xanax, Adderall, and none of these pills were real. They weren't exactly what they said they were, but they were fake pressed pills that had fentanyl in them. And that only started a few years ago. And that coincided of course, with the start of the COVID pandemic. So it didn't really hit any parent or a student's radar that this was happening because it was happening in real time with the COVID pandemic. And so all of a sudden you're hearing of these young, healthy individuals dying, who didn't have a substance abuse problem who weren't using heroin. And, we're just now catching up. And a lot of parents don't know this information.  Susan Stone: When we think about recreational use of drugs in college or high school, I have to be honest with you. I still think of alcohol and marijuana. And can you talk about what are the other drugs that students are experimenting with that we, as parents should say, we know you could go a party and you might encounter acts because I guess I don't think of Xanax or Adderall as a recreational drug. And we have cases where that's come up. But could you speak to what's really happening at parties.  Dr. Weinstock: Well, I think there's two ways to talk about that. One is not at parties. So for example, if a student, particularly a college student wants to stay up all night and study. That student might ask a friend for an Adderall to be able to do that. That stimulant effect that they're looking for. So that's not necessarily a party drug. But what might happen is that student might say, Hey, do you have an Adderall I can use, but it's not really an Adderall. It was pressed in some guy's basement to look like an Adderall. And it has some fentanyl in it. The other part of that might be the Xanax, the fake Xanax that, a student's struggling with anxiety and wants to get some Xanax off the internet or through Snapchat or on Tik Tok. And they get a Xanax not to party really, but just to manage some anxiety. So that's that environment. But if you go to parties now, I mean, this is the word on the street. I don't have real numbers to back this up, but my understanding is that cocaine has made a huge comeback. It's not at the level at, as it was in the crazy 1980s, but it's here. And lots of kids are experimenting with cocaine. So all of those situations are spots where a kid could be poisoned by fentanyl.  Kristina Supler: I think it's interesting. The comment you've just made the example with Adderall, for example, and students who are up late studying, finishing a paper, seeking that stimulant effect. And I think it's important for parents to recognize that because so often parents have the mindset that my child would never fill in the blank. But in reality, the dangers of fentanyl, aren't just tied to recreational drug use. It can be students using drugs for other reasons that have nothing to do with being at a party and being social. So thank you. I think that was a really poignant example. Tell us, if you could please, a little bit, from what I understand about BirdieLights, the goal of the organization is harm reduction and helping keep young adults safe. And so tell us more about what BirdieLight does to get closer to safe.  Dr. Weinstock: Yeah. And thank you for using that phrase. We like to repeat it many times closer to safe. Because we know that inherent in the act of taking a pill or using cocaine, you're never a hundred percent safe. There's risk inherent in any drug experimentation. So we tell students we want to move you closer to safe by number one, our education. We talk about fentanyl in a real sort of in the weeds way. We talk about how it's found in cocaine and what pressed pills look like and what to do if you're going to use ecstasy at an outdoor music concert. I mean, we really get in the weeds with this. Then we talk about what fentanyl does to your body and how it can be reversed by Narcan. Because it is an opioid. It's a synthetic opioid but it's still an opioid. And then lastly, we talk about fentanyl test strips and we pass them out to students and to parents. And what we do is we teach them how to use the test strip. And we talk about how to use it with each type of drug. And then they leave wherever we are in front of them. Speaking, we leave them with test strips or information on how to get them.  Susan Stone: I want to circle back to something that Kristina brought up. My child would never, and that really resonates with both of us because what you wouldn't know, Dr. Weinstock is that we travel all around the country, talking about sexual assault and prevention of sexual assault. We actually hear it from both sides. We hear, parents tell us my son would never violate issues of consent. We hear us parents of daughters saying my daughter would never put herself in a position. And we've had a lot of pushback over the years in our endeavor to say that we deal with this every day. How do you at BirdieLight deal with the blinder issue or the, just the prevailing attitude out there that, oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. That must have happened to you. I'm going to put my head under a rock because it couldn't happen to me cause that dissonance  Kristina Supler: Every day we hear it. Susan Stone: Every day we hear it. And it's so hard for us to be we've changed our talk a million times and we still run against that same wall.  Dr. Weinstock: I love that question. And there's different ways in which we've run up against that pushback. One of which is I find that when I talk to people about Eli, and as soon as I bring up the word fentanyl, There's a stigma. Right? And so the assumption is that Eli struggled with substance abuse and opioid substance use disorder. And that would never happen to my kid.   The first thing I try to do is to talk about fentanyl in a way that reduces that stigma. I don't know if I could ever get rid of it completely. But I try to stress to parents particularly about the numbers. And I always use comparisons because it works. I tell people, at the height of the aids epidemic and the worst year of the aids epidemic, we lost 50,000 people to HIV just last year alone. In 12 months, we lost a hundred thousand people to opioids. Over three quarters of which were due to fentanyl. Okay. So I try to do comparisons. I say, on the entire Vietnam war Memorial wall in Washington, DC, there's about 50,000 names for an entire war. And so what I try to stress is that this is not a substance use disorder problem. This is an American problem. And it's going to affect you one way or the other. You're going to know someone and God forbid it ever happens to you. I never thought it would happen to me. But we all know someone who's been touched by this. So I try to reduce stigma initially. And then I also try to quote things. I try to tell parents, listen, I've been to schools and I've talked to students, college students, particularly, and I asked them, do you know someone, or have you seen someone trying cocaine? Or have you yourself tried cocaine? And one out of three kids say yes to those answers. I'm not saying one out of three are using. I'm saying that they've been near or have seen cocaine. So one out of three. So we're looking at an opportunity, not just to educate kids who may never use drugs, but also to educate the ones who are using. So if a parent says to me, my kid would never, I say, but your kid might never, but your kid might be in a room where they could save a life. It might be in a room where they see a pill or some powder, and they could say, Hey, wait guys, before you do that, let's test it. So that I think that reaches parents. If their kid can be the one that saves a life.  Kristina Supler: The idea is students of all ages, perhaps being in a setting and even if the student him or herself, doesn't experiment with substances at all, this idea that you've mentioned about seeing others who are engaging in snorting cocaine, for example, it's just sad. Let me ask you, I wonder because teenagers have developing brains, teenagers can be spontaneous. Especially boys often we see them with ADHD after hearing the message of BirdieLights, our young adults or students really are they pulling out the test strips? Do they actually think to use them before injecting, snorting, consuming any type of drug? Dr. Weinstock: Well, that data on the ground is hard to gather and us being relatively new, we don't have large numbers just yet. We have anecdotal reports. We do know that, for girls who were about to use ecstasy at a music concert, did use our strips and found fentanyl and threw their drugs away. I do know that some boys that live on campus at OSU called me and said, can you bring us some strips because we're going to do Coke. And I brought it to them. I do know that we do surveys to every group we speak to. And the students always say, as they're leaving, they do our anonymous survey and say that they plan to change their behavior based on what we've told them. But the data gathering is hard. On our strips, we have a QR code that says. In a really like a pleading way. If you use this strip, please fill out our survey because we need to know if what we're doing is working. And that data is real small. It's rare that a college student would stop and fill out a survey as they're about to test or use drugs. But over time we hope to gather more and more data in the moment. You know, just anecdotally I can only speak to the students we've spoken to. And the truth is they're scared. They know that this landscape is a minefield and they're scared and they want our strips. They want our education. Are we going to reach everyone and have them change their behavior? Probably not. But piecemeal, we hope to go one by one. Save as many lives as we can.  Susan Stone: Have you received any push back? I'm thinking about your story, about someone from OSU calling you asking for a strip, because they're doing cocaine saying that rather than giving them the strip, you should have said, don't do the cocaine. Dr. Weinstock: I haven't received pushback in that scenario because I'm dealing one-on-one with the young adults. But I've received a little pushback from high schools and high school administration. In the sense of, asking me, how do we tell kids just say no to drugs at the same time, we're telling them how to test their drugs. My only answer really is that the numbers don't lie. You know, data doesn't lie. And if this many kids between the age of 15 and 24 are dying, then our message isn't working. Our message of just say no to drugs is not working. There are lives being lost and I try to point out to administrators that I can tell young adults not to use drugs because of the inherent risk. And I can tell them Eli's story. I had the biggest risk, the biggest loss. And I can say, this is what happened. My son also received the message for years of just say no to drugs. So the numbers don't lie. And I know that's one of the fears of high schools that we're sort of giving a mixed message. But I think it's okay to give both of those messages in parallel. Susan Stone: We work a lot in parallel. Because our practice primarily focuses on sex issues. What are you going to do? Tell kids not to have sex in college? And Christina, how many times do we deal with kids who are high and having intercourse? Or drunk and then saying they were incapacitated.  Kristina Supler: Yeah, I think that's actually a very good analogy, Susan, that might hit some of our listeners is frankly bizarre. But I think the reality is with substance abuse or sexual activity, we have good feedback from our practical experiences in our cases. Beth, as you point out, look at the data and the numbers and fentanyl. Don't do it that strict prohibitive message just doesn't seem to be working. And so the question is, what is the message that we should be advancing to our kids to help keep them safer? I suspect many of our parents and listeners might really say, wait a minute, this BirdieLight, is it in fact promoting drug use? But I think it's really important that parents think, really think about what your messages Beth at BirdieLight, and then also think about their own children and their own life experiences. And just reflect. And I like the idea of the language getting closer to safe. Because I think it's a concept that has application to so many different issues that high schoolers, college students, young adults face.  Susan Stone: My thought is that we're also facing a mental health epidemic that we've never seen. The surgeon general just put out an advisory that we are in a national health crisis when it comes to mental health. And I guess Dr. Weinstock, I would like an opinion as to our students with mental health issues, not properly being medicated. And would that alleviate a need for students to turn to something like street xanax. If their anxiety and depression were being addressed properly by more healthcare practitioners. Dr. Weinstock: Absolutely. I, I work in healthcare. So I see the deficits when it comes to mental health support access to care. And of course it's geographic, or it depends what area of the country you're in. Or if you live near a big medical center wait lists are so long right now. So we have an access to care problem. And obviously this has been an ongoing debate. But we have a health insurance problem in our country. So this mental health crisis Is a big one to tackle. But I do want to point out though that I do not advocate in any sense that a young adult take a medicine or a pill that they weren't prescribed such as a Xanax and Adderall, a Percocet, hydrocodone, oxycodone. There's no way that that's a good idea. As we know, you should only take pills that have been prescribed to you and put in a bottle by a pharmacist. However, I want to point out that an intelligent kid can learn either through their own parents' use of pharmaceuticals or on the internet that a person who takes a Xanax or an Adderall or a hydrocodone or oxycodone is not going to die. So let's say I'm 15 and I'm so anxious. I can't go to school in the morning and my friend gives me a Xanax they got off the internet. You can research that online and learn for yourself that if I take a Xanax, I'm not going to die. That's the difference is that we don't just have a, sort of a recreational drug use opioid problem. This is a poisoning problem. So what alarms me about this situation is that we can solve the mental health crisis in incremental doses, which is, you know such a big thing to tackle. But if you're the risk is so vast. If you're just going to take what you assume to be illegal prescription pill, that by itself has never killed anyone. And you're going to die from that. I mean, that is a risk model that is, is catastrophic, right? So we're not just dealing with an opioid substance use crisis in our country or a mental health crisis. We're dealing with a poisoning crisis. That's what the alarming thing.  Kristina Supler: Poisoning referring to the fentanyl. Tell us a little bit how the test strips work in conjunction with a substance that might be a pill or something that's snorted. How does one use these test strips?  Susan Stone: And does it work with injectable drugs? Dr. Weinstock: It will. It will work with anything that is in liquid. So basically you have to take a part of the cocaine you're about to use and dissolve it in a little shot glass size a container of water. And you can dissolve it and test it. There's very specific instructions. For example, if you have a bag of cocaine, you should test it multiple times before you use it because the fentanyl can be distributed in different parts of the bag. If you're about to take a pill, you can dissolve the pill in that water and test it with the strip and then you actually drink the water. You know, because it's a pill it's going to hit your stomach soon anyways, so it's okay to drink it. That way you test the whole pill and not just a segment of it. And then you can also, for example, if you're cooking injectable drugs, you can take some residue off the cooker and put some water on it and test that. So there's very different instructions for each drug. And when I speak to students I go into those specifics. For example, I haven't gotten in front of a big high school system yet, and there's some pushback there on discussion of the test strips in detail. So perhaps for a high school audience, I wouldn't get into details on how to test. Cooker, the residue on your cooker, there, you have to know your audience. So I tailor what I speak to regarding what group I'm in front of. Right now I mostly speak to high school students in small private groups rather than in front of a big auditorium.  Susan Stone: Well, we'd quite the team. You talk about drugs and we would talk about sex. I think we just need a musician to talk about rock and roll trifecta. What about Narcan? I have to tell you, I asked Christina this morning. My vision of Narcan was from like bad seventies movies of someone, ODing and them like plugging an epi pen. Is that still what it is? Or has it evolved?  Dr. Weinstock: Oh, so much Narcan is so widespread now and so easily used it's it's a nasal spray. At least the kind you would get for a use out in the community. It's an easily used nasal spray.  Susan Stone: That's just what Kristine just said my go-to source for everything is my law partner.  Kristina Supler: And correct me if I'm wrong. Just, I think this is useful information for our listeners as well. Most communities have public health departments where one can obtain Narcan for free, correct? Or is that something that only you don't have to be an EMS worker or law enforcement to have narcan, right?  Dr. Weinstock: No. No, you can get it in any pharmacy without a prescription.  It's a great act of citizenry to carry Narcan with you. And a lot of college students do that. They pass out Narcan on college campuses. And you'll talk to some students who say, well, I carry Narcan. I don't use any substances. But I carry it with me just in case. It's really a lifesaving tool. And if you're going to be at a party where people are using drugs, I would talk to all of your kids. Have Narcan, know where it is. And one of our goals with BirdieLight is to make Narcan and fentanyl test strips so commonplace that it just seems like it's the first aid kit in the, hallway closet. You always know where the test strips and the Narcan are. And if every college campus, every dorm, every fraternity and sorority had these two tools just sitting there for use. And it was common conversation to learn how to use them. The lot number of lives that would be saved would be remarkable.  Susan Stone: We had the privilege of watching your interview with Jake Tapper. You did an amazing job, Dr. Weinstock. We learned that Kratom was also found in Eli's body. I did. I had confess, I didn't know what that was. Can you discuss that? Because my understanding when I did a little bit of research is that it's a legal substance.  Dr. Weinstock: It is yeah. Kratom is an herbal supplement. That's legal and Eli had two substances in his system. One was Kratom and one was fentanyl. I don't know any more than that. So for example, I try not to get too sidetracked on the Kratom issue because the number of people that die from Kratom ingestion and fentanyl is minuscule. And so really focusing on that would take a lot of attention away from the vaster crisis, which really has not a lot to do with fentanyl. But either Eli took some Kratom that someone along the way had laced with fentanyl.  Or Eli was given a pill that he thought was something else. Either a Xanax or whatever he thought it was. And instead of having those ingredients in it, it had Kratom and fentanyl in it. But he, with his pathology only had two substances in his body create them and fentanyl. But we just don't know the vehicle as to how he ingested it. Susan Stone: Well, that was my thought. Are people putting fentanyl in vitamins or something else?  Kristina Supler: I was actually just thinking as I was listening. I think we, we represent a lot of college athletes and at various times we've had students who have hit different bumps in the road with the student disciplinary proceedings because of essentially bodybuilding drugs and stuff that has been ordered off the internet from overseas. And they think they're getting one thing, but it's a powder and who knows what's in it? Would these test strips, perhaps be a good idea to use with something like some sort of supplements that's ordered off the internet or something like that. Again, just to make sure that it's not poison.  Susan Stone: We were mind melding there. Cause we had the same question at the same time.  Dr. Weinstock: There's no data or research to say that that would be useful. It's not something that's been reported. That bodybuilding supplements would have fentanyl in them. I would say that anytime you order something and you're not real clear on where it's coming from or who's regulating it. There's always some inherent risk. One of the problems would be, for example, if you've got a bodybuilding powder and it was a jar, like a large jar is how would you test it? Fentanyl is lethal. It's such a small dose. And so in a large jar of powder protein supplement, you would have to check the entire jar. And that would take lots of strips, so I guess I can't speak to it because it's not an issue that's come up or something that's ever been recommended.  Kristina Supler: I read a grain of fentanyl. That's like a grain of sand can be lethal. Is that correct?  Dr. Weinstock: Well, it's a little more than that. Like if you took a salt shaker and put enough salt in your hand to fill the very center indentation, they say 12 to 15 grains of salt that's a lethal dose for most people.  The lethal dose is a little different if you're accustomed to opioids. If you take them frequently.  Kristina Supler: Oh, that's interesting.  Dr. Weinstock: Yeah.  Susan Stone: Have a quick question about the name BirdieLight. We couldn't help but notice that Eli's name is almost in the middle. We see the Eli. How did you arrive at that name? Dr. Weinstock: Well, we came up with some other like generic sounding names, like save one life and that kind of thing. But we wanted it to be more personal. And Eli's buddies in eighth grade they had a band of boys that ran around and they called themselves The Birdies. I don't know the origin of that. But it was always very cute. And then at his Memorial service, a bunch of those boys men now wrote a letters on the tables we had spread in our backyard. They wrote letters to birdie. So we thought we would use that. And also at the same time, I started thinking about a bird and the Canary in the coal mine concept of how the Canary went down to, to test the air first in a coal mine. And, and I thought of that as the test strip, you know, the Canary in the coal mine. Our logo has a yellow bird with a canary, I'm sorry, a miner's lamp on its head. And so we called it BirdieLight and I'm not really making this up at all, is that we looked at BirdieLight after we wrote it down. And then we said, wait a minute. Eli's name is in the middle of it. And so it was just serendipitous. We had a couple of people say, you should change your name because BirdieLight doesn't say what you're doing. Yelp and Uber's name, doesn't say what they're doing either. But the name means a lot to us.  Susan Stone: To our listeners out there, I who can't see my face, I think that the hair on the back of my neck was just raised and I I'm stopping some tears. That is stunning. And don't you change that name.  Kristina Supler: I don't get a vote, but if I did that is really compelling.  Susan Stone: Thank you so much. This is really been incredibly informative. And I think that you've shared a lot of really important information that our listeners can reflect on and then have conversations with their own children. So thank you so much.  And to our listeners, thank you for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please do subscribe to our show so that you never miss an episode. And leave us a review so that others can find the content we share here.  You can follow us on Instagram. Just search for our handles Stone Supler and for more resources, visit us online at studentdefense.Kjk.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our Real Talk community and we'll see you next time.

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