Podcasts about michael h

Der Podcast für junge Anleger jeden Alters

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 19, 2025 65:24

What happens when curiosity, resilience, and storytelling collide over a lifetime of building something meaningful? In this episode, I welcome Nick Francis, founder and CEO of Casual Films, for a thoughtful conversation about leadership, presence, and what it takes to keep going when the work gets heavy. Nick's journey began with a stint at BBC News and a bold 9,000-mile rally from London to Mongolia in a Mini Cooper, a spirit of adventure that still fuels how he approaches business and life today. We talk about how that early experience shaped Casual into a global branded storytelling company with studios across five continents, and what it really means to lead a creative organization at scale. Nick shares insights from growing the company internationally, expanding into Southeast Asia, and staying grounded while producing hundreds of projects each year. Along the way, we explore why emotionally resonant storytelling matters, how trust and preparation beat panic, and why presence with family, health, and purpose keeps leaders steady in uncertain times. This conversation is about building an Unstoppable life by focusing on what matters most, using creativity to connect people, and choosing clarity and resilience in a world full of noise. Highlights: 00:01:30 – Learn how early challenges shape resilience and long-term drive. 00:06:20 – Discover why focusing on your role creates calm under pressure. 00:10:50 – Learn how to protect attention in a nonstop world. 00:18:25 – Understand what global growth teaches about leadership. 00:26:00 – Learn why leading with trust changes relationships. 00:45:55 – Discover how movement and presence restore clarity. About the Guest: Nick Francis is the founder and CEO of Casual, a global production group that blends human storytelling, business know-how, and creativity turbo-charged by AI. Named the UK's number one brand video production company for five years, Casual delivers nearly 1,000 projects annually for world-class brands like Adobe, Amazon, BMW, Hilton, HSBC, and P&G. The adventurous spirit behind its first production – a 9,000-mile journey from London to Mongolia in an old Mini – continues to drive Casual's growth across offices in London, New York, LA, San Francisco, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Sydney, Singapore, Hong Kong and Greater China. Nick previously worked for BBC News and is widely recognised for his expertise in video storytelling, brand building, and corporate communications. He is the founding director of the Casual Films Academy, a charity helping young filmmakers develop skills by producing films for charitable organisations. He is also the author of ‘The New Fire: Harness the Power of Video for Your Business' and a passionate advocate for emotionally resonant, behaviorally grounded storytelling. Nick lives in San Francisco, California, with his family. Ways to connect with Nick**:** Website: https://www.casualfilms.com/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@casual_global Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/casualglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CasualFilms/ Nick's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickfrancisfilm/ Casual's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/casual-films-international/ Beyond Casual - LinkedIn Newsletter: https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=6924458968031395840 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21 Well, hello everyone. I am your host, Mike hingson, that's kind of funny. We'll talk about that in a second, but this is unstoppable mindset. And our guest today is Nick Francis, and what we're going to talk about is the fact that people used to always ask me, well, they would call me Mr. Kingston, and it took me, as I just told Nick a master's degree in physics in 10 years to realize that if I said Mike hingson, that's why they said Mr. Kingston. So was either say Mike hingson or Michael hingson. Well, Michael hingson is a lot easier to say than Mike hingson, but I don't really care Mike or Michael, as long as it's not late for dinner. Whatever works. Yeah. Well, Nick, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're Nick Francis 02:04 here. Thanks, Mike. It's great to be here. Michael Hingson 02:08 So Nick is a marketing kind of guy. He's got a company called casual that we'll hear about. Originally from England, I believe, and now lives in San Francisco. We were talking about the weather in San Francisco, as opposed to down here in Victorville. A little bit earlier. We're going to have a heat wave today and and he doesn't have that up there, but you know, well, things, things change over time. But anyway, we're glad you're here. And thanks, Mike. Really looking forward to it. Tell us about the early Nick growing up and all that sort of stuff, just to get us started. Nick Francis 02:43 That's a good question. I grew up in London, in in Richmond, which is southwest London. It's a at the time, it wasn't anything like as kind of, it's become quite kind of shishi, I think back in the day, because it's on the west of London. The pollution from the city used to flow east and so, like all the kind of well to do people, in fact, there used to be a, there used to be a palace in Richmond. It's where Queen Elizabeth died, the first Queen Elizabeth, that is. And, yeah, you know, I grew up it was, you know, there's a lot of rugby played around there. I played rugby for my local rugby club from a very young age, and we went sailing on the south coast. It was, it was great, really. And then, you know, unfortunately, when I was 10 years old, my my dad died. He had had a very powerful job at the BBC, and then he ran the British Council, which is the overseas wing of the Arts Council, so promoting, I guess, British soft power around the world, going and opening art galleries and going to ballet in Moscow and all sorts. So he had an incredible life and worked incredibly hard. And you know, that has brought me all sorts of privileges, I think, when I was a kid. But, you know, unfortunately, age 10 that all ended. And you know, losing a parent at that age is such a sort of fundamental, kind of shaking of your foundations. You know, you when you're a kid, you feel like a, you're going to live forever, and B, the things that are happening around you are going to last forever. And so, you know, you know, my mom was amazing, of course, and, you know, and in time, I got a new stepdad, and all the rest of it. But you know, that kind of shaped a lot of my a lot of my youth, really. And, yeah, I mean, Grief is a funny thing, and it's funny the way it manifests itself as you grow. But yeah. So I grew up there. I went to school in the Midlands, near where my stepdad lived, and then University of Newcastle, which is up in the north of England, where it rains a lot. It's where it's where Newcastle Football Club is based. And you know is that is absolutely at the center of the city. So. So the city really comes alive there. And it was during that time that I discovered photography, and I wanted to be a war photographer, because I believe that was where life was lived at the kind of the real cutting edge. You know, you see the you see humanity in its in its most visceral and vivid color in terrible situations. And I kind of that seemed like an interesting thing to go to go and do. Michael Hingson 05:27 Well, what? So what did you major in in college in Newcastle? So I did Nick Francis 05:31 history and politics, and then I went did a course in television journalism, and ended up working at BBC News as a initially running on the floor. So I used to deliver the papers that you know, when you see people shuffling or not, they do it anymore, actually, because everything, everything's digital now digital, yeah, but when they were worried about the the auto cues going down, they we always had to make sure that they had the up to date script. And so I would be printing in, obviously, the, you know, because it's a three hour news show, the scripts constantly evolving, and so, you know, I was making sure they had the most up to date version in their hands. And it's, I don't know if you have spent any time around live TV Mike, but it's an incredibly humbling experience, like the power of it. You know, there's sort of two or 3 million people watching these two people who are sitting five feet in front of me, and the, you know, the sort of slightly kind of, there was an element of me that just wanted to jump in front of them and kind of go, ah. And, you know, never, ever work in live TV, ever again. But you know, anyway, I did that and ended up working as a producer, writing and developing, developing packets that would go out on the show, producing interviews and things. And, you know, I absolutely loved it. It was, it was a great time. But then I left to go and set up my company. Michael Hingson 06:56 I am amazed, even today, with with watching people on the news, and I've and I've been in a number of studios during live broadcasts and so on. But I'm amazed at how well, mostly, at least, I've been fortunate. Mostly, the people are able to read because they do have to read everything. It isn't like you're doing a lot of bad living in a studio. Obviously, if you are out with a story, out in the field, if you will, there, there may be more where you don't have a printed script to go by, but I'm amazed at the people in the studio, how much they are able to do by by reading it all completely. Nick Francis 07:37 It's, I mean, the whole experience is kind of, it's awe inspiring, really. And you know, when you first go into a Live, a live broadcast studio, and you see the complexity, and you know, they've got feeds coming in from all over the world, and you know, there's upwards of 100 people all working together to make it happen. And I remember talking to one of the directors at the time, and I was like, How on earth does this work? And he said, You know, it's simple. You everyone has a very specific job, and you know that as long as you do your bit of the job when it comes in front of you, then the show will go out. He said, where it falls over is when people start worrying about whether other people are going to are going to deliver on time or, you know, and so if you start worrying about what other people are doing, rather than just focusing on the thing you have to do, that's where it potentially falls over, Michael Hingson 08:29 which is a great object lesson anyway, to worry about and control and don't worry about the rest Nick Francis 08:36 for sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, it's almost a lesson for life. I mean, sorry, it is a lesson for life, and Michael Hingson 08:43 it's something that I talk a lot about in dealing with the World Trade Center and so on, and because it was a message I received, but I've been really preaching that for a long time. Don't worry about what you can't control, because all you're going to do is create fear and drive yourself Nick Francis 08:58 crazy, completely, completely. You know. You know what is it? Give me the, give me this. Give me the strength to change the things I can. Give me the give me the ability to let the things that I can't change slide but and the wisdom to know the difference. I'm absolutely mangling that, that saying, but, yeah, it's, it's true, you know. And I think, you know, it's so easy for us to in this kind of modern world where everything's so media, and we're constantly served up things that, you know, shock us, sadness, enrage us, you know, just to be able to step back and say, actually, you know what? These are things I can't really change. I'd have to just let them wash over me. Yeah, and just focus on the things that you really can change. Michael Hingson 09:46 It's okay to be aware of things, but you've got to separate the things you can control from the things that you can and we, unfortunately aren't taught that. Our parents don't teach us that because they were never taught it, and it's something. That, just as you say, slides by, and it's so unfortunate, because it helps to create such a level of fear about so many things in our in our psyche and in our world that we really shouldn't have to do Nick Francis 10:13 completely well. I think, you know, obviously, but you know, we've, we've spent hundreds, if not millions of years evolving to become humans, and then, you know, actually being aware of things beyond our own village has only been an evolution of the last, you know what, five, 600 years, yeah. And so we are just absolutely, fundamentally not able to cope with a world of such incredible stimulus that we live in now. Michael Hingson 10:43 Yeah, and it's only getting worse with all the social media, with all the different things that are happening and of course, and we're only working to develop more and more things to inundate us with more and more kinds of inputs. It's really unfortunate we just don't learn to separate ourselves very easily from all of that. Nick Francis 11:04 Yeah, well, you know, it's so interesting when you look at the development of VR headsets, and, you know, are we going to have, like, lenses in our eyes that kind of enable us to see computer screens while we're just walking down the road, you know? And you look at that and you think, well, actually, just a cell phone. I mean, cell phones are going to be gone fairly soon. I would imagine, you know, as a format, it's not something that's going to abide but the idea that we're going to create technology that's going to be more, that's going to take us away from being in the moment more rather than less, is kind of terrifying. Because, I would say already, even with, you know, the most basic technology that we have now, which is, you know, mind bending, compared to where we were even 20 years ago, you know, to think that we're only going to become more immersive is, you know, we really, really as a species, have to work out how we are going to be far better at stepping away from this stuff. And I, you know, I do, I wonder, with AI and technology whether there is, you know, there's a real backlash coming of people who do want to just unplug, yeah, Michael Hingson 12:13 well, it'll be interesting to see, and I hope that people will learn to do it. I know when I started hearing about AI, and one of the first things I heard was how kids would use it to write their papers, and it was a horrible thing, and they were trying to figure out ways so that teachers could tell us something was written by AI, as opposed to a student. And I almost immediately developed this opinion, no, let AI write the papers for students, but when the students turn in their paper, then take a day to in your class where you have every student come up and defend their paper, see who really knows it, you know. And what a great teaching opportunity and teaching moment to to get students also to learn to do public speaking and other things a little bit more than they do, but we haven't. That hasn't caught on, but I continue to preach it. Nick Francis 13:08 I think that's really smart, you know, as like aI exists, and I think to to pretend somehow that, you know, we can work without it is, you know, it's, it's, it's, yeah, I mean, it's like, well, saying, you know, we're just going to go back to Word processors or typewriters, which, you know, in which it weirdly, in their own time, people looked at and said, this is, you know, these, these are going to completely rot our minds. In fact, yeah, I think Plato said that was very against writing, because he believed it would mean no one could remember anything after that, you know. So it's, you know, it's just, it's an endless, endless evolution. But I think, you know, we have to work out how we incorporate into it, into our education system, for sure. Michael Hingson 13:57 Well, I remember being in in college and studying physics and so on. And one of the things that we were constantly told is, on tests, you can't bring calculators in, can't use calculators in class. Well, why not? Well, because you could cheat with that. Well, the reality is that the smart physicists realized that it's all about really learning the concepts more than the numbers. And yeah, that's great to to know how to do the math. But the the real issue is, do you know the physics, not just the math completely? Nick Francis 14:34 Yeah. And then how you know? How are the challenges that are being set such that you know, they really test your ability to use the calculator effectively, right? So how you know? How are you lifting the bar? And in a way, I think that's kind of what we have to do, what we have to do now, Michael Hingson 14:50 agreed, agreed. So you were in the news business and so on, and then, as you said, you left to start your own company. Why did you decide to do that? Nick Francis 14:59 Well, a friend of. Ryan and I from University had always talked about doing this rally from London to Mongolia. So, and you do it in an old car that you sort of look at, and you go, well, that's a bit rubbish. It has to have under a one liter engine. So it's tiny, it's cheap. The idea is it breaks down you have an adventure. And it was something we kind of talked about in passing and decided that would be a good thing to do. And then over time, you know, we started sending off. We you know, we applied, and then we started sending off for visas and things. And then before we knew it, we were like, gosh, so it looks like we're actually going to do this thing. But by then, you know, my job at the BBC was really taking off. And so I said, you know, let's do this, but let's make a documentary of it. So long story short, we ended up making a series of diary films for Expedia, which we uploaded onto their website. It was, you know, we were kind of pitching this around about 2005 we kind of did it in 2006 so it was kind of, you know, nobody had really heard of YouTube. The idea of making videos to go online was kind of unheard of because, you know, broadband was just kind of getting sorry. It wasn't unheard of, but it was, it was very, it was a very nascent industry. And so, yeah, we went and drove 9000 miles over five weeks. We spent a week sitting in various different repair yards and kind of break his yards in everywhere from Turkey to Siberia. And when we came back, it became clear that the internet was opening up as this incredible medium for video, and video is such a powerful way to share emotion with a dispersed audience. You know, not that I would have necessarily talked about it in that in those terms back then, but it really seemed like, you know, every every web page, every piece of corporate content, could have a video aspect to it. And so we came back and had a few fits and starts and did some, I mean, we, you know, we made a series of hotel videos where we were paid 50 quid a day to go and film hotels. And it was hot and it was hard work. And anyway, it was rough. But over time, you know, we started to win some more lucrative work. And, you know, really, the company grew from there. We won some awards, which helped us to kind of make a bit of a name for ourselves. And this was, there's been a real explosion in technology, kind of shortly after when we did this. So digital SLRs, so, you know, old kind of SLR cameras, you know, turned into digital cameras, which could then start to shoot video. And so it, there was a real explosion in high quality video produced by very small teams of people using the latest technology creatively. And that just felt like a good kind of kick off point for our business. But we just kind of because we got in in kind of 2006 we just sort of beat a wave that kind of started with digital SLRs, and then was kind of absolutely exploded when video cell phones came on the market, video smartphones. And yeah, you know, because we had these awards and we had some kind of fairly blue chip clients from a relatively early, early stage, we were able to grow the company. We then expanded to the US in kind of 2011 20 between 2011 2014 and then we were working with a lot of the big tech companies in California, so it felt like we should maybe kind of really invest in that. And so I moved out here with some of our team in 2018 at the beginning of 2018 and I've been here ever since, wow. Michael Hingson 18:44 So what is it? What was it like starting a business here, or bringing the business here, as opposed to what it was in England? Nick Francis 18:53 It's really interesting, because the creatively the UK is so strong, you know, like so many, you know, from the Beatles to Led Zeppelin to the Rolling Stones to, you know, and then on through, like all the kind of, you know, film and TV, you know, Brits are very good at kind of Creating, like, high level creative, but not necessarily always the best at kind of monetizing it, you know. I mean, some of those obviously have been fantastic successes, right? And so I think in the UK, we we take a lot longer over getting, getting to, like, the perfect creative output, whereas the US is far more focused on, you know, okay, we need this to to perform a task, and frankly, if we get it 80% done, then we're good, right? And so I think a lot of creative businesses in the UK look at the US and they go, gosh. Firstly, the streets are paved with gold. Like the commercial opportunity seems incredible, but actually creating. Tracking it is incredibly difficult, and I think it's because we sort of see the outputs in the wrong way. I think they're just the energy and the dynamism of the US economy is just, it's kind of awe inspiring. But you know, so many businesses try to expand here and kind of fall over themselves. And I think the number one thing is just, you have to have a founder who's willing to move to the US. Because I think Churchill said that we're two two countries divided by the same language. And I never fully understood what that meant until I moved here. I think what it what he really means by that is that we're so culturally different in the US versus the UK. And I think lots of Brits look at America and think, Well, you know, it's just the same. It's just a bit kind of bigger and a bit Brasher, you know, and it and actually, I think if people in the US spoke a completely different language, we would approach it as a different culture, which would then help us to understand it better. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, it's been, it's been the most fabulous adventure to move here and to, you know, it's, it's hard sometimes, and California is a long way from home, but the energy and the optimism and the entrepreneurialism of it, coupled with just the natural beauty is just staggering. So we've made some of our closest friends in California, it's been absolutely fantastic. And across the US, it's been a fantastic adventure for us and our family. Michael Hingson 21:30 Yeah, I've had the opportunity to travel all over the US, and I hear negative comments about one place or another, like West Virginia, people eat nothing but fried food and all that. But the reality is, if you really take an overall look at it, the country has so much to offer, and I have yet to find a place that I didn't enjoy going to, and people I never enjoyed meeting, I really enjoy all of that, and it's great to meet people, and it's great to experience so much of this country. And I've taken that same posture to other places. I finally got to visit England last October, for the first time. You mentioned rugby earlier, the first time I was exposed to rugby was when I traveled to New Zealand in 2003 and found it pretty fascinating. And then also, I was listening to some rugby, rugby, rugby broadcast, and I tuned across the radio and suddenly found a cricket game that was a little bit slow for me. Yeah, cricket to be it's slow. Nick Francis 22:41 Yeah, fair enough. It's funny. Actually, we know what you're saying about travel. Like one of the amazing things about our Well, I kind of learned two sort of quite fundamentally philosophical things, I think, you know, or things about the about humans and the human condition. Firstly, like, you know, traveling across, you know, we left from London. We, like, drove down. We went through Belgium and France and Poland and Slovenia, Slovakia, Slovenia, like, all the way down Bulgaria, across Turkey into Georgia and Azerbaijan and across the Caspian Sea, and through Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, into Russia, and then down into Mongolia. When we finished, we were due north of Jakarta, right? So we drove, we drove a third of the way around the world. And the two things that taught me were, firstly that human people are good. You know, everywhere we went, people would invite us in to have meals, or they'd like fix our car for not unit for free. I mean, people were so kind everywhere we went. Yeah. And the other thing was, just, when we get on a plane and you fly from here to or you fly from London, say to we, frankly, you fly from London to Turkey, it feels unbelievably different. You know, you fly from London to China, and it's, you know, complete different culture. But what our journey towards us, because we drove, was that, you know, while we might not like to admit it, we're actually quite, you know, Brits are quite similar to the French, and the French actually are quite similar to the Belgians, and Belgians quite similar to the Germans. And, you know, and all the way through, actually, like we just saw a sort of slowly changing gradient of all the different cultures. And it really, you know, we are just one people, you know. So as much as we might feel that, you know, we're all we're all different, actually, when you see it, when you when you do a drive like that, you really, you really get to see how slowly the cultures shift and change. Another thing that's quite funny, actually, was just like, everywhere we went, we would be like, you know, we're driving to Turkey. They'd be like, Oh, God, you just drove through Bulgaria, you know, how is like, everything on your car not been stolen, you know, they're so dodgy that you Bulgarians are so dodgy. And then, you know, we'd get drive through the country, and they'd be like, you know, oh, you're going into Georgia, you know, gosh, what you go. Make, make sure everything's tied down on your car. They're so dodgy. And then you get into Georgia, and they're like, Oh my God, you've just very driven through Turkey this, like, everyone sort of had these, like, weird, yeah, kind of perceptions of their neighbors. And it was all nonsense, yeah, you know. Michael Hingson 25:15 And the reality is that, as you pointed out, people are good, you know, I think, I think politicians are the ones who so often mess it up for everyone, just because they've got agendas. And unfortunately, they teach everyone else to be suspicious of of each other, because, oh, this person clearly has a hidden agenda when it normally isn't necessarily true at all. Nick Francis 25:42 No, no, no, certainly not in my experience, anyway, not in my experience. But, you know, well, oh, go ahead. No, no. It's just, you know, it's, it is. It's, it is weird the way that happens, you know, well, they say, you know, if, if politicians fought wars rather than, rather than our young men and women, then there'd be a lot less of them. Yeah, so Well, Michael Hingson 26:06 there would be, well as I tell people, you know, I I've learned a lot from working with eight guy dogs and my wife's service dog, who we had for, oh, gosh, 14 years almost, and one of the things that I tell people is I absolutely do believe what people say, that dogs love unconditionally, unless they're just totally traumatized by something, but they don't trust unconditionally. The difference between dogs and people is that dogs are more open to trust because we've taught ourselves and have been taught by others, that everyone has their own hidden agenda. So we don't trust. We're not open to trust, which is so unfortunate because it affects the psyche of so many people in such a negative way. We get too suspicious of people, so it's a lot harder to earn trust. Nick Francis 27:02 Yeah, I mean, I've, I don't know, you know, like I've been, I've been very fortunate in my life, and I kind of always try to be, you know, open and trusting. And frankly, you know, I think if you're open and trusting with people, in my experience, you kind of, it comes back to you, you know, and maybe kind of looking for the best in everyone. You know, there are times where that's not ideal, but you know, I think you know, in the overwhelming majority of cases, you know, actually, you know, you treat people right? And you know what goes what goes around, comes around, absolutely. Michael Hingson 27:35 And I think that's so very true. There are some people who just are going to be different than that, but I think for the most part, if you show that you're open to trust people will want to trust you, as long as you're also willing to trust Nick Francis 27:51 them completely. Yeah, completely. Michael Hingson 27:54 So I think that that's the big thing we have to deal with. And I don't know, I hope that we, we will learn it. But I think that politicians are really the most guilty about teaching us. Why not to trust but that too, hopefully, will be something we deal with. Nick Francis 28:12 I think, you know, I think we have to, you know, it's, it's one of the tragedies of our age, I think, is that the, you know, we spent the 20th century, thinking that sex was the kind of ultimate sales tool. And then it took algorithms to for us to realize that actually anger and resentment are the most powerful sales tools, which is, you know, it's a it's something which, in time, we will work out, right? And I think the problem is that, at the minute, these tech businesses are in such insane ascendancy, and they're so wealthy that it's very hard to regulate them. And I think in time, what will happen is, you know, they'll start to lose some of that luster and some of that insane scale and that power, and then, you know, then regulation will come in. But you know whether or not, we'll see maybe, hopefully our civilization will still be around to see that. Michael Hingson 29:04 No, there is that, or maybe the Vulcans will show up and show us a better way. But you know, Nick Francis 29:11 oh, you know, I'm, I'm kind of endlessly optimistic. I think, you know, we are. We're building towards a very positive future. I think so. Yeah, it's just, you know, get always bumps along the way, yeah. Michael Hingson 29:24 So you named your company casual. Why did you do that? Or how did that come about? Nick Francis 29:30 It's a slightly weird name for something, you know, we work with, kind of, you know, global blue chip businesses. And, you know, casual is kind of the last thing that you would want to associate with, a, with a, with any kind of services business that works in that sphere. I think, you know, we, the completely honest answer is that the journalism course I did was television, current affairs journalism, so it's called TV cadge, and so we, when we made a film for a local charity as part of that course. Course, we were asked to name our company, and we just said, well, cash, cash casual, casual films. So we called it casual films. And then when my friend and I set the company up, kind of formally, to do the Mongol Rally, we, you know, we had this name, you know, the company, the film that we'd made for the charity, had gone down really well. It had been played at BAFTA in London. And so we thought, well, you know, we should just, you know, hang on to that name. And it didn't, you know, at the time, it didn't really seem too much of an issue. It was only funny. It was coming to the US, where I think people are a bit more literal, and they were a bit like, well, casual. Like, why casual, you know. And I remember being on a shoot once. And, you know, obviously, kind of some filmmakers can be a little casual themselves, not necessarily in the work, but in the way they present themselves, right? And I remember sitting down, we were interviewing this CEO, and he said, who, you know, who are you? Oh, we're casual films. He's like, Oh, is that why that guy's got ripped jeans? Is it? And I just thought, Damn, you know, we really left ourselves open to that. There was also, there was a time one of our early competitors was called Agile films. And so, you know, I remember talking to one of our clients who said, you know, it's casual, you know, when I have to put together a little document to say, you know, which, which supplier we should choose, and when I lay it on my boss's desk, and one says casual films, and one says agile films, it's like those guys are landing the first punch. But anyway, we, you know, we, what we say now is like, you know, we take a complex process and make it casual. You know, filmmaking, particularly for like, large, complex organizations where you've got lots of different stakeholders, can be very complicated. And so, yeah, we sort of say, you know, we'll take a lot of that stress off, off our clients. So that's kind of the rationale, you know, that we've arrived with, arrived at having spoken to lots of our clients about the role that we play for them. So, you know, there's a kind of positive spin on it, I guess, but I don't know. I don't know whether I'd necessarily call it casual again. I don't know if I'm supposed to say that or not, but, oh, Michael Hingson 32:00 it's unique, you know? So, yeah, I think there's a lot of merit to it. It's a unique name, and it interests people. I know, for me, one of the things that I do is I have a way of doing this. I put all of my business cards in Braille, so the printed business cards have Braille on them, right? Same thing. It's unique completely. Nick Francis 32:22 And you listen, you know what look your name is an empty box that you fill with your identity. They say, right? And casual is actually, it's something we've grown into. And you know it's we've been going for nearly 20 years. In fact, funny enough for the end of this year is the 20th anniversary of that first film we made for the for the charity. And then next summer will be our 20th anniversary, which is, you know, it's, it's both been incredibly short and incredibly long, you know, I think, like any kind of experience in life, and it's been some of the hardest kind of times of my entire life, and some of the best as well. So, you know, it's, it is what it is, but you know, casual is who we are, right? I would never check, you know? I'd never change it. Michael Hingson 33:09 Now, no, of course not, yeah. So is the actual name casual films, or just casual? Nick Francis 33:13 So it was casual films, but then everyone calls us casual anyway, and I think, like as an organization, we probably need to be a bit more agnostic about the outcome. Michael Hingson 33:22 Well, the reason I asked, in part was, is there really any filming going on anymore? Nick Francis 33:28 Well, that's a very that's a very good question. But have we actually ever made a celluloid film? And I think the answer is probably no. We used to, back in the day, we used to make, like, super eight films, which were films, I think, you know, video, you know, ultimately, if you're going to be really pedantic about it, it's like, well, video is a digital, digital delivery. And so basically, every film we make is, is a video. But there is a certain cachet to the you know, because our films are loved and crafted, you know, for good or ill, you know, I think to call them, you know, they are films because, because of the, you know, the care that's put into them. But it's not, it's, it's not celluloid. No, that's okay, yeah, well, Michael Hingson 34:16 and I know that, like with vinyl records, there is a lot of work being done to preserve and capture what's on cellular film. And so there's a lot of work that I'm sure that's being done to digitize a lot of the old films. And when you do that, then you can also go back and remaster and hopefully in a positive way, and I'm not sure if that always happens, but in a positive way, enhance them Nick Francis 34:44 completely, completely and, you know, it's, you know, it's interesting talking about, like, you know, people wanting to step back. You know, obviously vinyl is having an absolute as having a moment right now. In fact, I just, I just bought a new stylist for my for my record. Play yesterday. It sounded incredible as a joy. This gave me the sound quality of this new style. It's fantastic. You know, beyond that, you know, running a company, you know, we're in nine offices all over the world. We produce nearly 1000 projects a year. So, you know, it's a company. It's an incredibly complicated company. It's a very fun and exciting company. I love the fact that we make these beautifully creative films. But, you know, it's a bit, I wouldn't say it's like, I don't know, you don't get many MBAs coming out of business school saying, hey, I want to set up a video production company. But, you know, it's been, it's been wonderful, but it's also been stressful. And so, you know, I've, I've always been interested in pottery and ceramics and making stuff with my hands. When I was a kid, I used to make jewelry, and I used to go and sell it in nightclubs, which is kind of weird, but, you know, it paid for my beers. And then whatever works, I say kid. I was 18. I was, I was of age, but of age in the UK anyway. But now, you know, over the last few 18 months or so, I've started make, doing my own ceramics. So, you know, I make vases and and pictures and kind of all sorts of stuff out of clay. And it's just, it's just to be to unplug and just to go and, you know, make things with mud with your hands. It's just the most unbelievably kind of grounding experience. Michael Hingson 36:26 Yeah, I hear you, yeah. One of the things that I like to do is, and I don't get to do it as much as I would like, but I am involved with organizations like the radio enthusiasts of Puget Sound, which, every year, does recreations of old radio shows. And so we get the scripts we we we have several blind people who are involved in we actually go off and recreate some of the old shows, which is really a lot of fun, Nick Francis 36:54 I bet, yeah, yeah, sort of you know that connection to the past is, is, yeah, it's great radio. Radio is amazing. Michael Hingson 37:03 Anyway, what we have to do is to train some of the people who have not had exposure to old radio. We need to train them as to how to really use their voices to convey like the people who performed in radio, whatever they're doing, because too many people don't really necessarily know how to do that well. And it is, it is something that we're going to work on trying to find ways to get people really trained. And one of the ways, of course, is you got to listen to the old show. So one of the things we're getting more and more people to do when we do recreations is to go back and listen to the original show. Well, they say, Well, but, but that's just the way they did it. That's not necessarily the way it should be done. And the response is, no, that's not really true. The way they did it sounded natural, and the way you are doing it doesn't and there's reality that you need to really learn how to to use your voice to convey well, and the only way to do it is to listen to the experts who did it. Nick Francis 38:06 Yeah, well, it's, you know, it's amazing. The, you know, when the BBC was founded, all the news readers and anyone who appeared on on the radio to to present or perform, had to wear like black tie, like a tuxedo, because it was, you know, they're broadcasting to the nation, so they had to, you know, they had to be dressed appropriately, right, which is kind of amazing. And, you know, it's interesting how you know, when you, when you change your dress, when you change the way you're sitting, it does completely change the way that you project yourself, yeah, Michael Hingson 38:43 it makes sense, yeah, well, and I always enjoyed some of the old BBC radio shows, like the Goon Show, and completely some of those are so much fun. Nick Francis 38:54 Oh, great, yeah, I don't think they were wearing tuxedo. It's tuxedos. They would Michael Hingson 38:59 have been embarrassed. Yeah, right, right. Can you imagine Peter Sellers in a in a tux? It just isn't going to happen. Nick Francis 39:06 No, right, right. But yeah, no, it's so powerful. You know, they say radio is better than TV because the pictures are better. Michael Hingson 39:15 I agree. Yeah, sure, yeah. Well, you know, I I don't think this is quite the way he said it, but Fred Allen, the old radio comedian, once said they call television the new medium, because that's as good as it's ever going Nick Francis 39:28 to get. Yeah, right, right, yeah. Michael Hingson 39:32 I think there's truth to it. Whether that's exactly the way he said it or not, there's truth to that, yeah, but there's also a lot of good stuff on TV, so it's okay. Nick Francis 39:41 Well, it's so interesting. Because, you know, when you look at the it's never been more easy to create your own content, yeah, and so, you know, and like, in a way, TV, you know, he's not wrong in that, because it suddenly opened up this, this huge medium for people just to just create. Right? And, you know, and I think, like so many people, create without thinking, and, you know, and certainly in our kind of, in the in the world that we're living in now with AI production, making production so much more accessible, actually taking the time as a human being just to really think about, you know, who are the audience, what are the things that are going to what are going to kind of resonate with them? You know? Actually, I think one of the risks with AI, and not just AI, but just like production being so accessible, is that you can kind of shoot first and kind of think about it afterwards, and, you know, and that's never good. That's always going to be medium. It's medium at best, frankly. Yeah, so yeah, to create really great stuff takes time, you know, yeah, to think about it. Yeah, for sure, yeah. Michael Hingson 40:50 Well, you know, our podcast is called unstoppable mindset. What do you think that unstoppable mindset really means to you as a practical thing and not just a buzzword. Because so many people talk about the kinds of buzzwords I hear all the time are amazing. That's unstoppable, but it's really a lot more than a buzzword. It goes back to what you think, I think. But what do you think? Nick Francis 41:15 I think it's something that is is buried deep inside you. You know, I'd say the simple answer is, is just resilience. You know, it's, it's been rough. I write anyone running a small business or a medium sized business at the minute, you know, there's been some tough times over the last, kind of 1824, months or so. And, you know, I was talking to a friend of mine who she sold out of her business. And she's like, you know, how are things? I was like, you know, it's, it's, it's tough, you know, we're getting through it, you know, we're changing a lot of things, you know, we're like, we're definitely making the business better, but it's hard. And she's like, Listen, you know, when three years before I sold my company, I was at rock bottom. It was, I genuinely thought it was so stressful. I was crushed by it, but I just kept going. And she's just like, just keep going. And the only difference between success and failure is that resilience and just getting up every day and you just keep, keep throwing stuff at the wall, keep trying new things, keep working and trying to be better. I think, you know, it's funny when you look at entrepreneurs, I'm a member of a mentoring group, and I hope I'm not talking out of school here, but you know, there's 15 entrepreneurs, you know, varying sizes of business, doing all sorts, you know, across all sorts of different industries. And if you sat on the wall, if you were fly on the wall, and you sit and look at these people on a kind of week, month to month basis, and they all present on how their businesses are going. You go, this is this being an entrepreneur does not look like a uniformly fun thing, you know, the sort of the stress and just, you know, people crying and stuff, and you're like, gosh, you know, it's so it's, it's, it's hard, and yet, you know, it's people just keep coming back to it. And yet, I think it's because of that struggle that you have to kind of have something in built in you, that you're sort of, you're there to prove something. And I, you know, I've thought a lot about this, and I wonder whether, kind of, the death of my father at such a young age kind of gave me this incredible fire to seek His affirmation, you know. And unfortunately, obviously, the tragedy of that is like, you know, the one person who would never give me affirmation is my dad. And yet, you know, I get up every day, you know, to have early morning calls with the UK or with Singapore or wherever. And you know, you just just keep on, keeping on. And I think that's probably what and knowing I will never quit, you know, like, even from the earliest days of casual, when we were just, like a couple of people, and we were just, you know, kids doing our very best, I always knew the company was going to be a success act. Like, just a core belief that I was like, this is going to work. This is going to be a success. I didn't necessarily know what that success would look like. I just but I did know that, like, whatever it took, we would map, we'd map our way towards that figure it out. We'd figure it out. And I think, you know, there's probably something unstoppable. I don't know, I don't want to sound immodest, but I think there's probably something in that that you're just like, I am just gonna keep keep on, keeping on. Michael Hingson 44:22 Do you think that resilience and unstoppability are things that can be taught, or is it just something that's built into you, and either you have it or you don't? Nick Francis 44:31 I think it's something that probably, it's definitely something that can be learned, for sure, you know. And there are obviously ways that it can there's obviously ways it can be taught. You know, I was, I spent some time in the reserve, like the Army Reserve in the UK, and I just, you know, a lot of that is about teaching you just how much further you can go. I think what it taught me was it was so. So hard. I mean, honestly, some of the stuff we did in our training was, like, you know, it's just raining and raining and raining and, like, because all your kits soaking wet is weighs twice what it did before, and you just, you know, sleeping maybe, you know, an hour or two a night, and, you know, and there wasn't even anyone shooting at us, right? So, you know, like the worst bit wasn't even happening. But like, and like, in a sense, I think, you know, that's what they're trying to do, that, you know, they say, you know, train hard and fight easy. But I remember sort of sitting there, and I was just exhausted, and I just genuinely, I was just thought, you know, what if they tell me to go now, I just, I can't. I literally, I can't, I can't do it. Can't do it. And then they're like, right, lads, put your packs on. Let's go and just put your pack on. Off you go, you know, like, this sort of, the idea of not, like, I was never going to quit, just never, never, ever, you know, and like I'd physically, if I physically, like, literally, my physical being couldn't stand up, you know, I then that was be, that would be, you know, if I was kind of, like literally incapacitated. And I think what that taught me actually, was that, you know, you have what you believe you can do, like you have your sort of, you have your sort of physical envelope, but like that is only a third or a quarter of what you can actually achieve, right, you know. And I think what that, what the that kind of training is about, and you know, you can do it in marathon training. You can do it in all sorts of different, you know, even, frankly, meditate. You know, you train your mind to meditate for, you know, an hour, 90 minutes plus. You know, you're still doing the same. You know, there's a, there's an elasticity within your brain where you can teach yourself that your envelope is so much larger. Yeah. So, yeah, you know, like, is casual going to be a success? Like, I'm good, you know, I'm literally, I won't I won't stop until it is Michael Hingson 46:52 right, and then why stop? Exactly, exactly you continue to progress and move forward. Well, you know, when everything feels uncertain, whether it's the markets or whatever, what do you do or what's your process for finding clarity? Nick Francis 47:10 I think a lot of it is in having structured time away. I say structured. You build it into your calendar, but like, but it's unstructured. So, you know, I take a lot of solace in being physically fit. You know, I think if you're, if you feel physically fit, then you feel mentally far more able to deal with things. I certainly when I'm if I'm unfit and if I've been working too much and I haven't been finding the time to exercise. You know, I feel like the problems we have to face just loom so much larger. So, you know, I, I'll book out. I, you know, I work with a fan. I'm lucky enough to have a fantastic assistant who, you know, we book in my my exercise for each week, and it's almost the first thing that goes in the calendar. I do that because I can't be the business my my I can't be the leader my business requires. And it finally happened. It was a few years ago I kind of, like, the whole thing just got really big on me, and it just, you know, and I'm kind of, like, being crushed by it. And I just thought, you know what? Like, I can't, I can't fit other people's face mask, without my face mask being fit, fitted first. Like, in order to be the business my business, I keep saying that to be the lead in my business requires I have to be physically fit. So I have to look after myself first. And so consequently, like, you know, your exercise shouldn't be something just get squeezed in when you find when you have time, because, you know, if you've got family and you know, other things happening, like, you know, just will be squeezed out. So anyway, that goes in. First, I'll go for a bike ride on a Friday afternoon, you know, I'll often listen to a business book and just kind of process things. And it's amazing how often, you know, I'll just go for a run and, like, these things that have been kind of nagging away in the back of my mind, just suddenly I find clarity in them. So I try to exercise, like, five times a week. I mean, that's obviously more than most people can can manage, but you know that that really helps. And then kind of things, like the ceramics is very useful. And then, you know, I'm lucky. I think it's also just so important just to appreciate the things that you already have. You know, I think one of the most important lessons I learned last year was this idea that, you know, here is the only there. You know, everyone's working towards this kind of, like, big, you know, it's like, oh, you know, when I get to there, then everything's going to be okay, you know. And actually, you know, if you think about like, you know, and what did you want to achieve when you left college? Like, what was the salary band that you want? That you wanted to achieve? Right? A lot of people, you know, by the time you hit 4050, you've blown way through that, right? And yet you're still chasing the receding Summit, yeah, you know. And so actually, like, wherever we're trying to head to, we're already there, because once you get there, there's going to be another there that you're trying to. Head to right? So, so, you know, it's just taking a moment to be like, you know, God, I'm so lucky to have what I have. And, you know, I'm living in, we're living in the good old days, like right now, right? Michael Hingson 50:11 And the reality is that we're doing the same things and having the same discussions, to a large degree, that people did 50, 100 200 years ago. As you pointed out earlier, the fact is that we're, we're just having the same discussions about whether this works, or whether that works, or anything else. But it's all the same, Nick Francis 50:33 right, you know. And you kind of think, oh, you know, if I just, just, like, you know, if we just open up these new offices, or if we can just, you know, I think, like, look, if I, if I'd looked at casual when we started it as it is now, I would have just been like, absolute. My mind would have exploded, right? You know, if you look at what we've achieved, and yet, I kind of, you know, it's quite hard sometimes to look at it and just be like, Oh yeah, but we're only just starting. Like, there's so much more to go. I can see so much further work, that we need so many more things, that we need to do, so many more things that we could do. And actually, you know, they say, you know, I'm lucky enough to have two healthy, wonderful little girls. And you know, I think a lot of bread winners Look at, look at love being provision, and the idea that, you know, you have to be there to provide for them. And actually, the the truest form of love is presence, right? And just being there for them, and like, you know, not being distracted and kind of putting putting things aside, you know, not jumping on your emails or your Slack messages or whatever first thing in the morning, you know. And I, you know, I'm not. I'm guilty, like, I'm not, you know, I'm not one of these people who have this kind of crazy kind of morning routine where, like, you know, I'm incredibly disciplined about that because, you know, and I should be more. But like, you know, this stuff, one of the, one of the things about having a 24 hour business with people working all over the world is there's always things that I need to respond to. There's always kind of interesting things happening. And so just like making sure that I catch myself every so often to be like, I'm just going to be here now and I'm going to be with them, and I'm going to listen to what they're saying, and I'm going to respond appropriately, and, you know, I'm going to play a game with them, or whatever. That's true love. You know? Michael Hingson 52:14 Well, there's a lot of merit to the whole concept of unplugging and taking time and living in the moment. One of the things that we talked about in my book live like a guide dog, that we published last year, and it's all about lessons I've learned about leadership and teamwork and preparedness from eight guide dogs and my wife's service dog. One of the things that I learned along the way is the whole concept of living in the moment when I was in the World Trade Center with my fifth guide dog, Roselle. We got home, and I was going to take her outside to go visit the bathroom, but as soon as I took the harness off, she shot off, grabbed her favorite tug bone and started playing tug of war with my retired guide dog. Asked the veterinarians about him the next day, the people at Guide Dogs for the Blind, and they said, Well, did anything threaten her? And I said, No. And they said, there's your answer. The reality is, dogs live in the moment when it was over. It was over. And yeah, right lesson to learn. Nick Francis 53:15 I mean, amazing, absolutely amazing. You must have taken a lot of strength from that. Michael Hingson 53:20 Oh, I think it was, it was great. It, you know, I can look back at my life and look at so many things that have happened, things that I did. I never thought that I would become a public speaker, but I learned in so many ways the art of speaking and being relaxed at speaking in a in a public setting, that when suddenly I was confronted with the opportunity to do it, it just seemed like the natural thing to do. Nick Francis 53:46 Yeah, it's funny, because I think isn't public speaking the number one fear. It is. It's the most fit. It's the most feared thing for the most people. Michael Hingson 53:57 And the reality is going back to something that we talked about before. The reality is, audiences want you to succeed, unless you're a jerk and you project that, audiences want to hear what you have to say. They want you to be successful. There's really nothing to be afraid of but, but you're right. It is the number one fear, and I've never understood that. I mean, I guess I can intellectually understand it, but internally, I don't. The first time I was asked to speak after the World Trade Center attacks, a pastor called me up and he said, we're going to we're going to have a service outside for all the people who we lost in New Jersey and and that we would like you to come and speak. Take a few minutes. And I said, Sure. And then I asked him, How many people many people were going to be at the service? He said, 6000 that was, that was my first speech. Nick Francis 54:49 Yeah, wow. But it didn't bother me, you know, no, I bet Michael Hingson 54:54 you do the best you can, and you try to improve, and so on. But, but it is true that so many people. Are public speaking, and there's no reason to what Nick Francis 55:03 did that whole experience teach you? Michael Hingson 55:06 Well, one of the things that taught me was, don't worry about the things that you can't control. It also taught me that, in reality, any of us can be confronted with unexpected things at any time, and the question is, how well do we prepare to deal with it? So for me, for example, and it took me years after September 11 to recognize this, but one of the things that that happened when the building was hit, and Neither I, nor anyone on my side of the building really knew what happened. People say all the time, well, you didn't know because you couldn't see it. Well, excuse me, it hit 18 floors above us on the other side of the building. And the last time I checked X ray vision was fictitious, so nobody knew. But did the building shake? Oh, it tipped. Because tall buildings like that are flexible. And if you go to any tall building, in reality, they're made to buffet in wind storms and so on, and in fact, they're made to possibly be struck by an airplane, although no one ever expected that somebody would deliberately take a fully loaded jet aircraft and crash it into a tower, because it wasn't the plane hitting the tower as such that destroyed both of them. It was the exploding jet fuel that destroyed so much more infrastructure caused the buildings to collapse. But in reality, for me, I had done a lot of preparation ahead of time, not even thinking that there would be an emergency, but thinking about I need to really know all I can about the building, because I've got to be the leader of my office, and I should know all of that. I should know what to do in an emergency. I should know how to take people to lunch and where to go and all that. And by learning all of that, as I learned many and discovered many years later, it created a mindset that kicked in when the World Trade Center was struck, and in fact, we didn't know until after both towers had collapsed, and I called my wife. We I talked with her just before we evacuated, and the media hadn't even gotten the story yet, but I never got a chance to talk with her until after both buildings had collapsed, and then I was able to get through and she's the first one that told us how the two buildings had been hit by hijacked aircraft. But the mindset had kicked in that said, You know what to do, do it and that. And again, I didn't really think about that until much later, but that's something that is a lesson we all could learn. We shouldn't rely on just watching signs to know what to do, no to go in an emergency. We should really know it, because the knowledge, rather than just having information, the true intellectual knowledge that we internalize, makes such a big difference. Nick Francis 57:46 Do you think it was the fact that you were blind that made you so much more keen to know the way out that kind of that really helped you to understand that at the time? Michael Hingson 57:56 Well, what I think is being blind and growing up in an environment where so many things could be unexpected, for me, it was important to know so, for example, when I would go somewhere to meet a customer, I would spend time, ahead of time, learning how to get around, learning how to get to where they were and and learning what what the process was, because we didn't have Google Maps and we didn't have all the intellectual and and technological things that we have today. Well intellectual we did with the technology we didn't have. So today it's easier, but still, I want to know what to do. I want to really have the answers, and then I can can more easily and more effectively deal with what I need to deal with and react. So I'm sure that blindness played a part in all of that, because if I hadn't learned how to do the things that I did and know the things that I knew, then it would have been a totally different ball game, and so sure, I'm sure, I'm certain that blindness had something to do with it, but I also know that, that the fact is, what I learned is the same kinds of things that everyone should learn, and we shouldn't rely on just the signs, because what if the building were full of smoke, then what would you do? Right? And I've had examples of that since I was at a safety council meeting once where there was somebody from an electric company in Missouri who said, you know, we've wondered for years, what do we do if there's a fire in the generator room, in the basement, In the generator room, how do people get out? And he and I actually worked on it, and they developed a way where people could have a path that they could follow with their feet to get them out. But the but the reality is that what people first need to learn is eyesight is not the only game in town. Yeah, right. Mean, it's so important to really learn that, but people, people don't, and we take too many things for granted, which is, which is really so unfortunate, because we really should do a li

america god tv ceo new york university amazon california live head children trust ai power uk china france discover england british french san francisco new york times video russia brand german radio new jersey new zealand grief storytelling hospitals bbc turkey mba missouri hong kong barcelona blind beatles vr amsterdam singapore summit ambassadors thunder poland rolling stones named stitcher tracking belgium richmond west virginia amen ebooks moscow unstoppable newcastle slack southeast asia queen elizabeth ii bmw adobe casual belgians agile plato google maps bulgaria hilton led zeppelin churchill brits rutgers university bafta world trade center mongolia kazakhstan siberia jakarta slovenia slovakia your business azerbaijan hsbc bbc news vulcans bulgarian american red cross uzbekistan midlands expedia braille puget sound kyrgyzstan army reserve national federation turkmenistan peter sellers british council arts council guide dogs mini cooper greater china michael h slr caspian sea victorville exxon mobile chief vision officer federal express scripps college brasher fred allen michael hingson mongol rally goon show nick website nick francis accessibe american humane association slrs thunder dog hero dog awards

Mercosur-Abkommen: Bedenken eines Landwirts aus Wachtberg

WDR 5 Morgenecho

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 18, 2025 6:09

Findet das Mercosur-Freihandelsaabkommen beim EU-Gipfel eine Mehrheit, wird Kommissionspräsidentin von der Leyen (CDU) es unterzeichnen. Michael Hüllen, Landwirt aus Wachtberg, ist auf dem Weg nach Brüssel, um gegen das Abkommen zu protestieren. Warum? Von WDR 5.

european union weg xd mehrheit bedenken mercosur landwirt abkommen michael h eu gipfel handelsabkommen kommissionspr von wdr leyen cdu

Wiener Börse Party #1058: ATX vor dem Dezember-Verfall etwas schwächer, EVN mit der schönen 3; Opening Bell Thomas Hahn

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 18, 2025 7:18

Thu, 18 Dec 2025 11:10:00 +0000 https://jungeanleger.podigee.io/2848-wiener-borse-party-1058-atx-vor-dem-dezember-verfall-etwas-schwacher-evn-mit-der-schonen-3-opening-bell-thomas-hahn 082404c5e57989d367be8dd417fcecdf Die Wiener Börse Party ist ein Podcastprojekt für Audio-CD.at von Christian Drastil Comm.. Unter dem Motto „Market & Me“ berichtet Christian Drastil über das Tagesgeschehen an der Wiener Börse. Inhalte der Folge #1058: - ATX etwas schwächer - EVN nach guten Zahlen gesucht - Auch Thomas Hahn, CEO vom Kaufhaus Steffl, läutet eine Opening Bell für unseren Manager:innen-Weihnachtssong, der dieser Tage Gast für Gast eingesungen wird und nächste Woche gepublished. In der heutigen Folge vom 18.12. wird ein Zwischentake des Songs auch ganz kurz im Hintergrund eingespielt - Michael Höllerer wird RBI-CEO - News Erste Group - Vintage zu CA Immo, Semperit und voestalpine - Frankfurt: DAX fester, Deutsche Börse gesucht - mehr dazu im Podcast Links: - Börsepeople morgen Peter Bösenberg unter http://www.audio-cd.at/people - PIR heute Gunter Deuber unter http://www.audio-cd.at/pir - kapitalmarkt-stimme.at daily voice Playlist auf spotify: http://www.kapitalmarkt-stimme.at/spotify - Stockpicking Österreich: https://www.wikifolio.com/de/at/w/wfdrastil1? - beim Aktientag 2026 präsentieren (20 Slots, 11 frei): Strabag, Porr, Palfinger, Frequentis, FACC, VIG, Polytec, Semperit, UBM. ATX aktuell: https://www.wienerborse.at/indizes/aktuelle-indexwerte/preise-mitglieder/??ISIN=AT0000999982&ID_NOTATION=92866&cHash=49b7ab71e783b5ef2864ad3c8a5cdbc1 Die täglichen Folgen der Wiener Börse Party (Co-verantwortlich Script: Christine Petzwinkler) im Q4/2025 sind präsentiert von der Börse Frankfurt / Xetra https://www.boerse-frankfurt.de/xetraplus . Infos zum Jingle: https://audio-cd.at/page/podcast/7326 Risikohinweis: Die hier veröffentlichten Gedanken sind weder als Empfehlung noch als ein Angebot oder eine Aufforderung zum An- oder Verkauf von Finanzinstrumenten zu verstehen und sollen auch nicht so verstanden werden. Sie stellen lediglich die persönliche Meinung der Podcastmacher dar. Der Handel mit Finanzprodukten unterliegt einem Risiko. Sie können Ihr eingesetztes Kapital verlieren. Und: Bewertungen bei Apple (oder auch Spotify) machen mir Freude: http://www.audio-cd.at/spotify http://www.audio-cd.at/apple Du möchtest deine Werbung in diesem und vielen anderen Podcasts schalten? Kein Problem!Für deinen Zugang zu zielgerichteter Podcast-Werbung, klicke hier.Audiomarktplatz.de - Geschichten, die bleiben - überall und jederzeit! 2848 full no Christian Drastil Comm. (Agentur für Investor Relations und Podcasts)

Episode 397 – Unstoppable Purpose Found Through Photography with Mobeen Ansari

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 16, 2025 66:24

What happens when your voice is built through visuals, not volume? In this Unstoppable Mindset episode, I talk with photographer and storyteller Mobeen Ansari about growing up with hearing loss, learning speech with support from his family and the John Tracy Center, and using technology to stay connected in real time. We also explore how his art became a bridge across culture and faith, from documenting religious minorities in Pakistan to chronicling everyday heroes, and why he feels urgency to photograph climate change before more communities, heritage sites, and ways of life are lost. You'll hear how purpose grows when you share your story in a way that helps others feel less alone, and why Mobeen believes one story can become a blueprint for someone else to navigate their own challenge. Highlights: 00:03:54 - Learn how early family support can shape confidence, communication, and independence for life. 00:08:31 - Discover how deciding when to capture a moment can define your values as a storyteller. 00:15:14 - Learn practical ways to stay fully present in conversations when hearing is a daily challenge. 00:23:24 - See how unexpected role models can redefine what living fully looks like at any stage of life. 00:39:15 - Understand how visual storytelling can cross cultural and faith boundaries without words. 00:46:38 - Learn why documenting climate change now matters before stories, places, and communities disappear. About the Guest: Mobeen Ansari is a photographer, filmmaker and artist from Islamabad, Pakistan. Having a background in fine arts, he picked up the camera during high school and photographed his surroundings and friends- a path that motivated him to be a pictorial historian. His journey as a photographer and artist is deeply linked to a challenge that he had faced since after his birth. Three weeks after he was born, Mobeen was diagnosed with hearing loss due to meningitis, and this challenge has inspired him to observe people more visually, which eventually led him to being an artist. He does advocacy for people with hearing loss. Mobeen's work focuses on his home country of Pakistan and its people, promoting a diverse & poetic image of his country through his photos & films. As a photojournalist he focuses on human interest stories and has extensively worked on topics of climate change, global health and migration. Mobeen has published three photography books. His first one, ‘Dharkan: The Heartbeat of a Nation', features portraits of iconic people of Pakistan from all walks of life. His second book, called ‘White in the Flag' is based on the lives & festivities of religious minorities in Pakistan. Both these books have had two volumes published over the years. His third book is called ‘Miraas' which is also about iconic people of Pakistan and follows ‘Dharkan' as a sequel. Mobeen has also made two silent movies; 'Hellhole' is a black and white short film, based on the life of a sanitation worker, and ‘Lady of the Emerald Scarf' is based on the life of Aziza, a carpet maker in Guilmit in Northern Pakistan. He has exhibited in Pakistan & around the world, namely in UK, Italy, China Iraq, & across the US and UAE. His photographs have been displayed in many famous places as well, including Times Square in New York City. Mobeen is also a recipient of the Swedish Red Cross Journalism prize for his photography on the story of FIFA World Cup football manufacture in Sialkot. Ways to connect with Mobeen**:** www.mobeenansari.com Facebook: www.facebook.com/mobeenart Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mobeenansari/ Instagram: @mobeenansariphoto X: @Mobeen_Ansari About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host. Michael Hingson, we're really glad that you are here, and today we are going to talk to Mobeen Ansari, and Mobeen is in Islamabad. I believe you're still in Islamabad, aren't you? There we go. I am, yeah. And so, so he is 12 hours ahead of where we are. So it is four in the afternoon here, and I can't believe it, but he's up at four in the morning where he is actually I get up around the same time most mornings, but I go to bed earlier than he does. Anyway. We're really glad that he is here. He is a photographer, he speaks he's a journalist in so many ways, and we're going to talk about all of that as we go forward. Mobin also is profoundly hard of hearing. Uses hearing aids. He was diagnosed as being hard of hearing when he was three weeks old. So I'm sure we're going to talk about that a little bit near the beginning, so we'll go ahead and start. So mo bean, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad that you're here. Mobeen Ansari 02:32 It's a pleasure to be here, and I'm honored to plan your show. Thank you so much. Michael Hingson 02:37 Well, thank you very much, and I'm glad that we're able to make this work, and I should explain that he is able to read what is going on the screen. I use a program called otter to transcribe when necessary, whatever I and other people in a meeting, or in this case, in a podcast, are saying, and well being is able to read all of that. So that's one of the ways, and one of the reasons that we get to do this in real time. So it's really kind of cool, and I'm really excited by that. Well, let's go ahead and move forward. Why don't you tell us a little about the early Beau beam growing up? And obviously that starts, that's where your adventure starts in a lot of ways. So why don't you tell us about you growing up and all that. Mobeen Ansari 03:22 So I'm glad you mentioned the captions part, because, you know, that has been really, really revolutionary. That has been quite a lifesaver, be it, you know, Netflix, be it anywhere I go into your life, I read captions like there's an app on my phone that I use for real life competitions, and that's where I, you know, get everything. That's where technology is pretty cool. So I do that because of my hearing does, as you mentioned, when I was three weeks old, I had severe meningitis due to it, had lost hearing in both my ear and so when my hearing loss were diagnosed, it was, you know, around the time we didn't have resources, the technology that we do today. Michael Hingson 04:15 When was that? What year was that about? Mobeen Ansari 04:19 1986 okay, sorry, 1987 so yeah, so they figured that I had locked my hearing at three weeks of age, but didn't properly diagnose it until I think I was three months old. So yeah, then January was my diagnosis, okay. Michael Hingson 04:44 And so how did you how did you function, how did you do things when you were, when you were a young child? Because at that point was kind of well, much before you could use a hearing aid and learn to speak and so on. So what? Mobeen Ansari 05:00 You do. So my parents would have a better memory of that than I would, but I would say that they were, you know, extra hard. They went an extra mile. I mean, I would say, you know, 100 extra mile. My mother learned to be a peace therapist, and my father. He learned to be he learned how to read audiogram, to learn the audiology, familiarize himself with hearing a technology with an engineer support. My parents work around me. David went to a lot of doctors, obviously, I was a very difficult child, but I think that actually laid the foundation in me becoming an artist. Because, you know, today, the hearing is it fits right into my ear so you cannot see it, basically because my hair is longer. But back then, hearing aids used to be almost like on a harness, and you to be full of quiet, so you would actually stick out like a sore thumb. So, you know, obviously you stand out in a crowd. So I would be very conscious, and I would often, you know, get asked what this is. So I would say, this is a radio but for most part of my childhood, I was very introverted, but I absolutely love art. My grandmother's for the painter, and she was also photographer, as well as my grandfather, the hobbyist photographer, and you know, seeing them create all of the visuals in different ways, I was inspired, and I would tell my stories in form of sketching or making modified action figures. And photography was something I picked up way later on in high school, when the first digital camera had just come out, and I finally started in a really interacting with the world. Michael Hingson 07:13 So early on you you drew because you didn't really use the camera yet. And I think it's very interesting how much your parents worked to make sure they could really help you. As you said, Your mother was a speech you became a speech therapist, and your father learned about the technologies and so on. So when did you start using hearing aids? That's Mobeen Ansari 07:42 a good question. I think I probably started using it when I was two years old. Okay, yeah, yeah, that's gonna start using it, but then, you know, I think I'll probably have to ask my parents capacity, but a moment, Mobeen Ansari 08:08 you know, go ahead, I think they worked around me. They really improvised on the situation. They learned at the went along, and I think I learned speech gradually. Did a lot of, you know, technical know, how about this? But I would also have to credit John Troy clinic in Los Angeles, because, you know, back then, there was no mobile phone, there were no emails, but my mother would put in touch with John Troy center in LA and they would send a lot of material back and forth for many years, and they would provide a guidance. They would provide her a lot of articles, a lot of details on how to help me learn speech. A lot of visuals were involved. And because of the emphasis on visuals, I think that kind of pushed me further to become an artist, because I would speak more, but with just so to Michael Hingson 09:25 say so, it was sort of a natural progression for you, at least it seemed that way to you, to start using art as a way to communicate, as opposed as opposed to talking. Mobeen Ansari 09:39 Yeah, absolutely, you know, so I would like pass forward a little bit to my high school. You know, I was always a very shy child up until, you know, my early teens, and the first camera had just come out, this was like 2001 2002 at. It. That's when my dad got one, and I would take that to school today. You know, everyone has a smartphone back then, if you had a camera, you're pretty cool. And that is what. I started taking pictures of my friends. I started taking pictures of my teachers, of landscapes around me. And I would even capture, you know, funniest of things, like my friend getting late for school, and one day, a friend of mine got into a fight because somebody stole his girlfriend, or something like that happened, you know, that was a long time ago, and he lost the fight, and he turned off into the world court to cry, and he was just sort of, you're trying to hide all his vulnerability. I happened to be in the same place as him, and I had my camera, and I was like, should I capture this moment, or should I let this permit go? And well, I decided to capture it, and that is when human emotion truly started to fascinate me. So I was born in a very old city. I live in the capital of Islamabad right now, but I was born in the city of travel to be and that is home to lots of old, you know, heritage sites, lots of old places, lots of old, interesting scenes. And you know, that always inspired you, that always makes you feel alive. And I guess all of these things came together. And, you know, I really got into the art of picture storytelling. And by the end of my high school graduation, everybody was given an award. The certificate that I was given was, it was called pictorial historian, and that is what inspired me to really document everything. Document my country. Document is people, document landscape. In fact, that award it actually has in my studio right now been there for, you know, over 21 years, but it inspired me luck to this day. Michael Hingson 12:20 So going back to the story you just told, did you tell your friend that you took pictures of him when he was crying? Mobeen Ansari 12:32 Eventually, yes, I would not talk. You're familiar with the content back then, but the Catholic friend, I know so I mean, you know everyone, you're all kids, so yeah, very, yeah, that was a very normal circumstance. But yeah, you know, Michael Hingson 12:52 how did he react when you told him, Mobeen Ansari 12:56 Oh, he was fine. It's pretty cool about it, okay, but I should probably touch base with him. I haven't spoken to him for many years that Yeah, Michael Hingson 13:08 well, but as long as Yeah, but obviously you were, you were good friends, and you were able to continue that. So that's, that's pretty cool. So you, your hearing aids were also probably pretty large and pretty clunky as well, weren't they? Mobeen Ansari 13:26 Yeah, they were. But you know, with time my hearing aid became smaller. Oh sure. So hearing aid model that I'm wearing right now that kind of started coming in place from 1995 1995 96 onwards. But you know, like, even today, it's called like BDE behind the ear, hearing it even today, I still wear the large format because my hearing loss is more it's on the profound side, right? Just like if I take my hearing, it off. I cannot hear but that's a great thing, because if I don't want to listen to anybody, right, and I can sleep peacefully at night. Michael Hingson 14:21 Have you ever used bone conduction headphones or earphones? Mobeen Ansari 14:30 But I have actually used something I forgot what is called, but these are very specific kind of ear bone that get plugged into your hearing it. So once you plug into that, you cannot hear anything else. But it discontinued that. So now they use Bluetooth. Michael Hingson 14:49 Well, bone conduction headphones are, are, are devices that, rather than projecting the audio into your ear, they actually. Be projected straight into the bone and bypassing most of the ear. And I know a number of people have found them to be useful, like, if you want to listen to music and so on, or listen to audio, you can connect them. There are Bluetooth versions, and then there are cable versions, but the sound doesn't go into your ear. It goes into the bone, which is why they call it bone conduction. Mobeen Ansari 15:26 Okay, that's interesting, I think. Michael Hingson 15:29 And some of them do work with hearing aids as well. Mobeen Ansari 15:34 Okay, yeah, I think I've experienced that when they do the audio can test they put, like at the back of your head or something? Michael Hingson 15:43 Yeah, the the most common one, at least in the United States, and I suspect most places, is made by a company called aftershocks. I think it's spelled A, F, T, E, R, S, H, O, k, s, but something to think about. Anyway. So you went through high school mostly were, were your student colleagues and friends, and maybe not always friends? Were they pretty tolerant of the fact that you were a little bit different than they were. Did you ever have major problems with people? Mobeen Ansari 16:22 You know, I've actually had a great support system, and for most part, I actually had a lot of amazing friends from college who are still my, you know, friend to the dead, sorry, from school. I'm actually closer to my friend from school than I am two friends of college difficulties. You know, if you're different, you'll always be prone to people who sort of are not sure how to navigate that, or just want, you know, sort of test things out. So to say, so it wasn't without his problems, but for most part of it's surprisingly, surprisingly, I've had a great support system, but, you know, the biggest challenge was actually not being able to understand conversation. So I'm going to go a bit back and forth on the timeline here. You know, if so, in 2021, I had something known as menus disease. Menier disease is something, it's an irregular infection that arises from stress, and what happens is that you're hearing it drops and it is replaced by drinking and bathing and all sorts of real according to my experience, it affects those with hearing loss much more than it affects those with regular, normal hearing. It's almost like tinnitus on steroids. That is how I would type it. And I've had about three occurrences of that, either going to stress or being around loud situations and noises, and that is where it became so challenging that it became difficult to hear, even with hearing it or lip reading. So that is why I use a transcriber app wherever I go, and that been a lifesaver, you know. So I believe that every time I have evolved to life, every time I have grown up, I've been able to better understand people to like at the last, you know, four years I've been using this application to now, I think I'm catching up on all the nuances of conversation that I've missed. Right if I would talk to you five years ago, I would probably understand 40% of what you're saying. I would understand it by reading your lips or your body language or ask you to write or take something for me, but now with this app, I'm able to actually get to 99% of the conversation. So I think with time, people have actually become more tired and more accepting, and now there is more awareness. I think, awareness, right? Michael Hingson 19:24 Well, yeah, I was gonna say it's been an only like the last four years or so, that a lot of this has become very doable in real time, and I think also AI has helped the process. But do you find that the apps and the other technologies, like what we use here, do you find that occasionally it does make mistakes, or do you not even see that very much at all? Mobeen Ansari 19:55 You know it does make mistakes, and the biggest problem is when there is no data, when there is no. Wide network, or if it runs out of battery, you know, because now I kind of almost 24/7 so my battery just integrate that very fast. And also because, you know, if I travel in remote regions of Pakistan, because I'm a photographer, my job to travel to all of these places, all of these hidden corners. So I need to have conversation, especially in those places. And if that ad didn't work there, then we have a problem. Yeah, that is when it's problem. Sometimes, depending on accidents, it doesn't pick up everything. So, you know, sometimes that happens, but I think technology is improving. Michael Hingson 20:50 Let me ask the question. Let me ask the question this way. Certainly we're speaking essentially from two different parts of the world. When you hear, when you hear or see me speak, because you're you're able to read the transcriptions. I'm assuming it's pretty accurate. What is it like when you're speaking? Does the system that we're using here understand you well as in addition to understanding me? Mobeen Ansari 21:18 Well, yes, I think it does so like, you know, I just occasionally look down to see if it's catching up on everything. Yeah, on that note, I ought to try and improve my speech over time. I used to speak very fast. I used to mumble a lot, and so now I become more mindful of it, hopefully during covid. You know, during covid, a lot of podcasts started coming out, and I had my own actually, so I would, like brought myself back. I would look at this recording, and I would see what kind of mistakes I'm making. So I'm not sure if transcription pick up everything I'm saying, but I do try and improve myself, just like the next chapter of my life where I'm trying to improve my speech, my enunciation Michael Hingson 22:16 Well, and that's why I was was asking, it must be a great help to you to be able to look at your speaking through the eyes of the Translate. Well, not translation, but through the eyes of the speech program, so you're able to see what it's doing. And as you said, you can use it to practice. You can use it to improve your speech. Probably it is true that slowing down speech helps the system understand it better as well. Yeah, yeah. So that makes sense. Well, when you were growing up, your parents clearly were very supportive. Did they really encourage you to do whatever you wanted to do? Do they have any preconceived notions of what kind of work you should do when you grew up? Or do they really leave it to you and and say we're going to support you with whatever you do? Mobeen Ansari 23:21 Oh, they were supportive. And whatever I wanted to do, they were very supportive in what my brother had gone to do I had to enter brothers. So they were engineers. And you know what my my parents were always, always, you know, very encouraging of whatever period we wanted to follow. So I get the a lot of credit goes to my my parents, also, because they even put their very distinct fields. They actually had a great understanding of arts and photography, especially my dad, and that really helped me have conversations. You know, when I was younger to have a better understanding of art. You know, because my grandmother used to paint a lot, and because she did photography. When she migrated from India to Pakistan in 1947 she took, like, really, really powerful pictures. And I think that instilled a lot of this in me as well. I've had a great support that way. Michael Hingson 24:26 Yeah, so your grandmother helps as well. Mobeen Ansari 24:32 Oh yeah, oh yeah. She did very, very ahead of her time. She's very cool, and she made really large scale painting. So she was an example of always making the best of life, no matter where you are, no matter how old you are. She actually practiced a Kibana in the 80s. So that was pretty cool. So, you know. Yeah, she played a major part in my life. Michael Hingson 25:05 When did you start learning English? Because that I won't say it was a harder challenge for you. Was a different challenge, but clearly, I assume you learned originally Pakistani and so on. But how did you go about learning English? Mobeen Ansari 25:23 Oh, so I learned about the languages when I started speech. So I mean to be split the languages of Urdu. You are, be you. So I started learning about my mother tongue and English at the same time. You know, basically both languages at work to both ran in parallel, but other today, I have to speak a bit of Italian and a few other regional languages of Pakistan so and in my school. I don't know why, but we had French as a subject, but now I've completely forgotten French at Yeah, this kind of, it kind of helped a lot. It's pretty cool, very interesting. But yeah, I mean, I love to speak English. Just when I learned speech, what Michael Hingson 26:19 did you major in when you went to college? Mobeen Ansari 26:24 So I majored in painting. I went to National College of Arts, and I did my bachelor's in fine arts, and I did my majors in painting, and I did my minor in printmaking and sculpture. So my background was always rooted in fine arts. Photography was something that ran in parallel until I decided that photography was the ultimate medium that I absolutely love doing that became kind of the voice of my heart or a medium of oppression and tougher and bone today for Michael Hingson 27:11 did they even have a major in photography when you went to college? Mobeen Ansari 27:17 No, photography was something that I learned, you know, as a hobby, because I learned that during school, and I was self taught. One of my uncles is a globally renowned photographer. So he also taught me, you know, the art of lighting. He also taught me on how to interact with people, on how to set up appointments. He taught me so many things. So you could say that being a painter helped me become a better photographer. Being a photographer helped me become a better painter. So both went hand in hand report co existed. Yeah, so photography is something that I don't exactly have a degree in, but something that I learned because I'm more of an art photographer. I'm more of an artist than I am a photographer, Michael Hingson 28:17 okay, but you're using photography as kind of the main vehicle to display or project your art, absolutely. Mobeen Ansari 28:30 So what I try to do is I still try to incorporate painting into my photography, meaning I try to use the kind of lighting that you see in painting all of these subtle colors that Rembrandt of Caravaggio use, so I tried to sort of incorporate that. And anytime I press my photograph, I don't print it on paper, I print it on canvas. There's a paint really element to it, so so that my photo don't come up as a challenge, or just photos bottles or commercial in nature, but that they look like painting. And I think I have probably achieved that to a degree, because a lot of people asked me, Do you know, like, Okay, how much I did painting for and create painting. So I think you know, whatever my objective was, I think I'm probably just, you know, I'm getting there. Probably that's what my aim is. So you have a photography my main objective with the main voice that I use, and it has helped me tell stories of my homeland. It has helped me to tell stories of my life. It has helped me tell stories of people around Michael Hingson 29:49 me, but you're but what you do is as I understand you, you're, you may take pictures. You may capture the images. With a camera, but then you put them on canvas. Mobeen Ansari 30:05 Yeah, I just every time I have an exhibition or a display pictures which are present in my room right now, I always print them on Canvas, because when you print them on Canvas, the colors become more richer, right, Michael Hingson 30:22 more mentally. But what? But what you're doing, but what you're putting on Canvas are the pictures that you've taken with your camera. Mobeen Ansari 30:31 Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. But occasionally, occasionally, I tried to do something like I would print my photos on Canvas, and then I would try to paint on them. It's something that I've been experimenting with, but I'm not directly quite there yet. Conceptually, let's see in the future when these two things make properly. But now photographs? Michael Hingson 31:02 Yeah, it's a big challenge. I i can imagine that it would be a challenge to try to be able to print them on cameras and then canvas, and then do some painting, because it is two different media, but in a sense, but it will be interesting to see if you're able to be successful with that in the future. What would you say? It's easier today, though, to to print your pictures on Canvas, because you're able to do it from digital photographs, as opposed to what you must have needed to do, oh, 20 years ago and so on, where you had film and you had negatives and so on, and printing them like you do today was a whole different thing to do. Mobeen Ansari 31:50 Oh yeah, it's same to think good yesterday, somebody asked me if I do photography on an analog camera, and I have a lot of them, like lots and lots of them, I still have a lot of black and white film, but the problem is, nobody could develop them. I don't have that room. So otherwise I would do that very often. Otherwise I have a few functional cameras that tend to it. I'm consciously just thinking of reviving that. Let's see what happens to it. So I think it's become very difficult. You know also, because Pakistan has a small community of photographers, so the last person who everybody would go to for developing the film or making sure that the analog cameras became functional. He unfortunately passed away a few years ago, so I'm sort of trying to find somebody who can help me do this. It's a very fascinating process, but I haven't done any analog film camera photography for the last 15 years now, definitely a different ball game with, you know, typical cameras, yeah, the pattern, you could just take 36 pictures, and today you can just, you know, take 300 and do all sorts of trial and error. But I tried, you know, I think I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to photography, so I kind of try and make sure that I get the shots at the very first photograph, you know, because that's how my dad trained me on analog cameras, because back then, you couldn't see how the pictures are going to turn out until you printed them. So every time my dad took a picture, he would spend maybe two or three minutes on the setting, and he would really make the person in front of him wait a long time. And then you need to work on shutter speed or the aperture or the ISO, and once you would take that picture is perfect, no need to anything to it, Michael Hingson 34:09 but, but transposing it, but, but transferring it to from an analog picture back then to Canvas must have been a lot more of a challenge than it is today. Mobeen Ansari 34:24 No back then, working canvas printing. Canvas printing was something that I guess I just started discovering from 2014 onwards. So it would like during that this is laid up, Michael Hingson 34:38 but you were still able to do it because you just substituted Canvas for the the typical photographic paper that you normally would use is what I hear you say, Mobeen Ansari 34:50 Oh yeah, Canvas printing was something that I figured out much later on, right? Michael Hingson 34:59 Um. But you were still able to do it with some analog pictures until digital cameras really came into existence. Or did you always use it with a digital camera? Mobeen Ansari 35:11 So I basically, when I started off, I started with the handle camera. And obviously, you know, back in the 90s, if somebody asked you to take a picture, or we have to take a picture of something, you just had the analog camera at hand. Yeah. And my grandparents, my dad, they all had, you know, analog cameras. Some of it, I still have it Michael Hingson 35:36 with me, but were you able to do canvas painting from the analog cameras? No, yeah, that's what I was wondering. Mobeen Ansari 35:43 No, I haven't tried, yeah, but I think must have been possible, but I've only tried Canvas printing in the digital real. Michael Hingson 35:53 Do you are you finding other people do the same thing? Are there? Are there a number of people that do canvas painting? Mobeen Ansari 36:02 I lot of them do. I think it's not very common because it's very expensive to print it on canvas. Yeah, because you know, once you once you test again, but you don't know how it's going to turn out. A lot of images, they turn out very rough. The pictures trade, and if can, with print, expose to the camera, sometimes, sorry, the canvas print exposed to the sun, then there's the risk of a lot of fading that can happen. So there's a lot of risk involved. Obviously, printing is a lot better now. It can withstand exposure to heat and sun, but Canvas printing is not as common as you know, matte paper printing, non reflective, matte paper. Some photographers do. It depends on what kind of images you want to get out? Yeah, what's your budget is, and what kind of field you're hoping to get out of it. My aim is very specific, because I aim to make it very Painterly. That's my objective with the canvas. Michael Hingson 37:17 Yeah, you want them to look like paintings? Mobeen Ansari 37:21 Yeah? Yeah, absolutely, Michael Hingson 37:23 which, which? I understand it's, it is a fascinating thing. I hadn't really heard of the whole idea of canvas painting with photograph or photography before, but it sounds really fascinating to to have that Yeah, and it makes you a unique kind of person when you do that, but if it works, and you're able to make it work, that's really a pretty cool thing to do. So you have you you've done both painting and photography and well, and sculpting as well. What made you really decide, what was the turning point that made you decide to to go to photography is kind of your main way of capturing images. Mobeen Ansari 38:12 So it was with high school, because I was still studying, you know, art as a subject back then, but I was still consistently doing that. And then, like earlier, I mentioned to you that my school gave me an award called pictorial historian. That is what inspired me to follow this girl. That is what set me on this path. That is what made me find this whole purpose of capturing history. You know, Pakistan is home to a lot of rich cultures, rich landscapes, incredible heritage sites. And I think that's when I became fascinated. Because, you know, so many Pakistanis have these incredible stories of resilience entrepreneurship, and they have incredible faces, and, you know, so I guess that what made me want to capture it really. So I think, yeah, it was in high school, and then eventually in college, because, you know, port and school and college, I would be asked to take pictures of events. I'll be asked to take pictures of things around me. Where I went to college, it was surrounded by all kinds of, you know, old temples and churches and old houses and very old streets. So that, really, you know, always kept me inspired. So I get over time. I think it's just always been there in my heart. I decided to really, really go for it during college. Well. Michael Hingson 40:00 But you've, you've done pretty well with it. Needless to say, which is, which is really exciting and which is certainly very rewarding. Have you? Have you done any pictures that have really been famous, that that people regard as exceptionally well done? Mobeen Ansari 40:22 I Yes, obviously, that's it for the audience to decide. But right, I understand, yeah, I mean, but judging from my path exhibitions, and judging from system media, there have been quite a few, including the monitor out of just last week, I went to this abandoned railway station, which was on a British colonial time, abandoned now, but that became a very, very successful photograph. I was pretty surprised to see the feedback. But yes, in my career, they have been about, maybe about 10 to 15 picture that really, really stood out or transcended barriers. Because coming out is about transcending barriers. Art is about transcending barriers, whether it is cultural or political, anything right if a person entered a part of the world views a portrait that I've taken in Pakistan, and define the connection with the subject. My mission is accomplished, because that's what I would love to do through art, to connect the world through art, through art and in the absence of verbal communication. I would like for this to be a visual communication to show where I'm coming from, or the very interesting people that I beat. And that is that sort of what I do. So I guess you know, there have been some portraits. I've taken some landscapes or some heritage sites, and including the subjects that I have photography of my book that acting have probably stood out in mind of people. Michael Hingson 42:14 So you have published three books so far, right? Yes, but tell me about your books, if you would. Mobeen Ansari 42:24 So my first book is called Harkin. I will just hold it up for the camera. It is my first book, and what is it called? It is called turken, and the book is about iconic people of Pakistan who have impacted this history, be it philanthropist, be it sports people, be it people in music or in performing arts, or be it Even people who are sanitation workers or electricians to it's about people who who have impacted the country, whether they are famous or not, but who I consider to be icons. Some of them are really, really, really famous, very well known people around the world, you know, obviously based in Pakistan. So my book is about chronicling them. It's about documenting them. It's about celebrating them. My second book without, okay, most Michael Hingson 43:29 people are going to listen to the podcast anyway, but go ahead. Yeah. Mobeen Ansari 43:35 So basically it's writing the flag is about the religious minorities of Pakistan, because, you know, Pakistan is largely a Muslim country. But when people around the world, they look at Pakistan, they don't realize that it's a multicultural society. There's so many religions. Pakistan is home to a lot of ancient civilizations, a lot of religions that are there. And so this book document life and festivities of religious minorities of Pakistan. You know, like I in my childhood, have actually attended Easter mass, Christmas and all of these festivities, because my father's best friend was a Christian. So we had that exposure to, you know, different faiths, how people practice them. So I wanted to document that. That's my second book. Michael Hingson 44:39 It's wonderful that you had, it's wonderful that you had parents that were willing to not only experience but share experiences with you about different cultures, different people, so that it gave you a broader view of society, which is really cool. Mobeen Ansari 44:58 Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. So your third book? So my third book is a sequel to my first one, same topic, people who have impacted the country. And you know, with the Pakistan has a huge, huge population, it had no shortage of heroes and heroines and people who have created history in the country. So my first book has 98 people, obviously, which is not enough to feature everybody. So my second book, it features 115 people. So it features people who are not in the first book. Michael Hingson 45:41 Your third book? Yeah, okay, yeah. Well, there's, you know, I appreciate that there's a very rich culture, and I'm really glad that you're, you're making Chronicles or or records of all of that. Is there a fourth book coming? Have you started working on a fourth book yet? Mobeen Ansari 46:05 You know in fact, yes, there is. Whenever people hear about my book, they assume that there's going to be landscape or portraits or street photography or something that is more anthropological in nature. That's the photography I truly enjoy doing. These are the photographs that are displayed in my studio right now. So, but I would never really study for it, because Pakistan had, you know, we have poor provinces. And when I started these books, I hadn't really documented everything. You know, I come from the urban city, and, you know, I just, just only take taking pictures in main cities at that time. But now I have taken pictures everywhere. I've been literally to every nook and cranny in the country. So now I have a better understanding, a better visual representation. So a fourth book, it may be down the line, maybe five years, 10 years, I don't know yet. Michael Hingson 47:13 Well, one thing that I know you're interested in, that you've, you've at least thought about, is the whole idea behind climate change and the environment. And I know you've done some work to travel and document climate change and the environment and so on. Tell us, tell us more about that and where that might be going. Mobeen Ansari 47:36 So on tape, note, Michael, you know there's a lot of flooding going on in Pakistan. You know, in just one day, almost 314 people died, but many others you had missing. You had some of the worst flooding test time round. And to be reeling from that, and we had some major flooding some teachers back in. Well, climate change is no longer a wake up call. We had to take action years ago, if not, you know, yesterday and till right now, we are seeing effects of it. And you know, Pakistan has a lot of high mountain peaks. It has, it is home to the second highest mountain in the world, Ketu, and it has a lot of glaciers. You know, people talk about melting polar ice caps. People talk about effects of climate change around the world, but I think it had to be seen everywhere. So in Pakistan, especially, climate change is really, really rearing space. So I have traveled to the north to capture melting glacier, to capture stories of how it affects different communities, the water supply and the agriculture. So that is what I'm trying to do. And if I take pictures of a desert down south where a sand dune is spreading over agricultural land that it wasn't doing up until seven months ago. So you know climate change is it's everywhere. Right now, we are experiencing rains every day. It's been the longest monsoon. So it has also affected the way of life. It has also affected ancient heritage sites. Some of these heritage sites, which are over 3000 years old, and they have bestowed, you know, so much, but they are not able to withstand what we are facing right now. Um, and unfortunately, you know, with unregulated construction, with carbon emissions here and around the world, where deforestation, I felt that there was a strong need to document these places, to bring awareness of what is happening to bring awareness to what we would lose if we don't look after mother nature, that the work I have been doing on climate change, as well as topics of global health and migration, so those two topics are also very close To My Heart. Michael Hingson 50:40 Have you done any traveling outside Pakistan? Mobeen Ansari 50:45 Oh, yeah. I mean, I've been traveling abroad since I was very little. I have exhibited in Italy, in the United States. I was just in the US debris. My brother lives in Dallas, so, yeah, I keep traveling because, because my workshop, because of my book events, or my exhibition, usually here and around the world. Michael Hingson 51:14 Have you done any photography work here in the United States? Mobeen Ansari 51:19 Yeah, I have, I mean, in the US, I just don't directly do photography, but I do workshop, because whatever tool that I captured from Pakistan, I do it there. Okay, funny thing is, a funny thing is that, you know, when you take so many pictures in Pakistan, you become so used to rustic beauty and a very specific kind of beauty that you have a hard time capturing what's outside. But I've always, always just enjoyed taking pictures in in Mexico and Netherlands, in Italy, in India, because they that rustic beauty. But for the first time, you know, I actually spent some time on photography. This year, I went to Chicago, and I was able to take pictures of Chicago landscape, Chicago cityscape, completely. You know, Snowden, that was a pretty cool kind of palette to work with. Got to take some night pictures with everything Snowden, traveling Chicago, downtown. So yeah, sometimes I do photography in the US, but I'm mostly there to do workshops or exhibitions or meet my brothers. Michael Hingson 52:34 What is your your work process? In other words, how do you decide what ideas for you are worthwhile pursuing and and recording and chronicling. Mobeen Ansari 52:46 So I think it depends on where their story, where there is a lot of uniqueness, that is what stands out to me, and obviously beauty there. But they have to be there. They have to be some uniqueness, you know, like, if you look at one of the pictures behind me, this is a person who used to run a library that had been there since 1933 his father, he had this really, really cool library. And you know, to that guy would always maintain it, that library would have, you know, three old books, you know, a philosophy of religion, of theology, and there was even a handwritten, 600 years old copy of the Quran with his religious book for Muslims. So, you know, I found these stories very interesting. So I found it interesting because he was so passionate about literature, and his library was pretty cool. So that's something that you don't get to see. So I love seeing where there is a soul, where there is a connection. I love taking pictures of indigenous communities, and obviously, you know, landscapes as well. Okay? Also, you know, when it comes to climate change, when it comes to migration, when it comes to global health, that's what I take picture to raise awareness. Michael Hingson 54:33 Yeah, and your job is to raise awareness. Mobeen Ansari 54:41 So that's what I try to do, if I'm well informed about it, or if I feel that is something that needed a light to be shown on it, that's what I do. Took my photograph, and also, you know. Whatever had this appeal, whatever has a beauty, whatever has a story that's in spur of the moment. Sometimes it determined beforehand, like this year, particularly, it particularly helped me understand how to pick my subject. Even though I've been doing this for 22 years, this year, I did not do as much photography as I normally do, and I'm very, very picky about it. Like last week I went to this abandoned railway station. I decided to capture it because it's very fascinating. It's no longer used, but the local residents of that area, they still use it. And if you look at it, it kind of almost looks like it's almost science fiction film. So, you know, I'm a big star. Was that Big Star Trek fan? So, yes, I'm in port the camps. So I also like something that had these elements of fantasy to it. So my work, it can be all over the place, sometimes, Michael Hingson 56:09 well, as a as a speaker, it's, it's clearly very important to you to share your own personal journey and your own experiences. Why is that? Why do you want to share what you do with others? Mobeen Ansari 56:28 So earlier, I mentioned to you that John Tracy center played a major, major role in my life. He helped my mother. They provided all the materials. You know, in late 80s, early 90s, and so I will tell you what happened. So my aunt, my mom's sister, she used to live in the US, and when my hearing loss were diagnosed, my mother jumped right into action. I mean, both my parents did. So my mother, she landed in New York, and to my aunt would live in New Jersey. So every day she would go to New York, and she landed in New York League of hard of hearing. And a lady over there asked my mom, do you want your child to speak, or do you want him to learn? Frank Lacher and my mother, without any hesitation, she said, I want my child to speak and to see what put in touch with John Troy center and rest with history, and they provided with everything that needed. So I am affiliated with the center as an alumni. And whenever I'm with the US, whenever I'm in LA, I visit the center to see how I can support parents of those with hearing loss, and I remember when I went in 2016 2018 I gave a little talk to the parents of those with hair in glass. And I got to two other place as well, where I spent my childhood joint. Every time I went there, I saw the same fears. I saw the same determination in parents of those with hearing loss, as I saw in my parents eyes. And by the end of my talk, they came up to me, and they would tell me, you know, that sharing my experiences helped them. It motivated them. It helped them not be discouraged, because having a child hearing loss is not easy. And you know, like there was this lady from Ecuador, and you know, she spoke in Spanish, and she see other translators, you know, tell me this, so to be able to reach out with those stories, to be able to provide encouragement and any little guidance, or whatever little knowledge I have from my experience, it gave me this purpose. And a lot of people, I think, you know, you feel less lonely in this you feel hurt, you feel seen. And when you share experiences, then you have sort of a blueprint how you want to navigate in one small thing can help the other person. That's fantastic. That's why I share my personal experiences, not just to help those with hearing loss, but with any challenge. Because you know when you. Have a challenge when you have, you know, when a person is differently able, so it's a whole community in itself. You know, we lift each other up, and if one story can help do that, because, you know, like for me, my parents told me, never let your hearing loss be seen as a disability. Never let it be seen as a weakness, but let it be seen as a challenge that makes you stronger and that will aspire to do be it when I get it lost all of my life, be it when I had the latest or many years, or anything. So I want to be able to become stronger from to share my experiences with it. And that is why I feel it's important to share the story. Michael Hingson 1:00:56 And I think that's absolutely appropriate, and that's absolutely right. Do you have a family of your own? Are you married? Do you have any children or anything? Not yet. Not yet. You're still working on that, huh? Mobeen Ansari 1:01:10 Well, so to say, Yeah, I've just been married to my work for way too long. Michael Hingson 1:01:16 Oh, there you are. There's nothing wrong with that. You've got something that you Mobeen Ansari 1:01:22 kind of get batting after a while, yeah. Michael Hingson 1:01:26 Well, if the time, if the right person comes along, then it, then that will happen. But meanwhile, you're, you're doing a lot of good work, and I really appreciate it. And I hope everyone who listens and watches this podcast appreciates it as well. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Mobeen Ansari 1:01:45 They can send me an email, which is out there for everybody on my website. I'm on all my social media as well. My email is being.ansarima.com Michael Hingson 1:01:57 so can you spell that? Can you Yeah, M, o b e n, dot a do it once more, M O B, E N, Mobeen Ansari 1:02:07 M O B, double, e n, dot, a n, S, A R, i@gmail.com Michael Hingson 1:02:17 at gmail.com, okay, and your website is.com Mobeen Ansari 1:02:26 same as my name. Michael Hingson 1:02:27 So, okay, so it's mo bean.ansari@our.www.mo Michael Hingson 1:02:35 bean dot Ansari, or just mo Bean on, sorry, Mobeen Ansari 1:02:41 just moving on, sorry. We com, no.no. Michael Hingson 1:02:44 Dot between mobien and Ansari, okay, so it's www, dot mobile being on sorry, yeah, so it's www, dot, M, O, B, E, N, A, N, S, A, R, i.com Yes. Well, great. I have absolutely enjoyed you being with us today. I really appreciate your time and your insights, and I value a lot what you do. I think you represent so many things so well. So thank you for being here with us, and I want to thank all of you who are out there listening and watching the podcast today, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please email me at Michael H, i@accessibe.com that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and we appreciate it if you would give us a five star rating wherever you are observing the podcast. Please do that. We value that a great deal. And if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest, please let me know. We're always looking for people and mobeen you as well. If you know anyone else who you think ought to be a guest on the podcast, I would appreciate it if you would introduce us. But for now, I just want to thank you one more time for being here. This has been absolutely wonderful. Thank you for being on the podcast with us today. Mobeen Ansari 1:04:08 Thank you so much. It's been wonderful, and thank you for giving me the platform to share my stories. And I hope that it helps whoever watching this. Up to date. Michael Hingson 1:04:26 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

christmas united states new york netflix children new york city ai chicago art english uk los angeles discover mexico british french new york times italy spanish new jersey italian arts hospitals blind chronicles catholic muslims netherlands ambassadors photography thunder stitcher pakistan ebooks ecuador unstoppable wide flag needless bean document uae bluetooth rutgers university times square edward snowden canvas iso pakistani fifa world cup quran american red cross translate rembrandt caravaggio urdu national federation islamabad bde ansari national college michael h aziza harkin conceptually exxon mobile chief vision officer federal express scripps college ketu michael hingson kibana mobeen accessibe sialkot american humane association thunder dog northern pakistan mobin john tracy menier hero dog awards

Aktien-Schnelltest | Magnum, Adobe, Credo & Ashtead Technology

Bernecker Opinion

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 13, 2025 23:21

Der Aktien-Schnelltest mit Michael Hüsgen und Oliver Kantimm ("Der Aktionärsbrief"). Hier im Beitrag gibt es die Podcast-Variante zur eigentlichen Sendung im Rahmen von BerneckerTV, Aufzeichnung des Hauptvideos am 11.12.2025). Schlaglichter:Begrüßung & werblicher Hinweis auf Favoriten der Redaktion bzw. den AktionärsbriefThe Magnum Ice Cream Co. - Investmentstrategie mit drei Säulen und dennoch...Adobe - Angeschlagene Stimmung trotz KI-getriebenem WachstumCredo Technology Group - Turbo-Wachstum vorausAshtead Technology Holdings - Schnäppchen-Chance?20:03 VerabschiedungWir wünschen gewinnbringende Impulse mit diesem Beitrag.=======Nutzen Sie unser Angebot für den Aktionärsbrief und lesen Sie diesen Bernecker Brief in den ersten 6 Monaten mit einem Rabatt von 35 %:https://bernecker.info/offer/glgfbbbliu-6441=======Lust auf noch mehr Sendungen im Bernecker.TV? Noch mehr unterschiedliche Experten? Infos zu Bernecker.TV:https://www.bernecker.info/bernecker-tv=======Anmeldung zum kostenlosen Experten-Newsletter der Bernecker-Redaktion über unsere Website:https://www.bernecker.info/newsletter

Zwischen den USA und China – wie viel geopolitische Eigenständigkeit kann und muss Europa sich leisten?

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 12, 2025 27:09

Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther analysieren die Folgen einer zweiten Trump-Präsidentschaft und diskutieren, wie Europa wirtschaftlich und sicherheitspolitisch unabhängiger werden kann.

united states china europa kann sich muss zwischen wieviel leisten eigenst michael h trump pr china wie

Episode 395 – Finding an Unstoppable Voice as a Neurodivergent Author with Jennifer Shaw

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 9, 2025 65:51

What struck me most in my conversation with author Jennifer Shaw is how often we underestimate the power of understanding our own story. Jennifer grew up sensing she was different, yet never had the words for why. Hearing her share how a late diagnosis of autism and ADHD finally helped her trust her own voice reminded me how important it is for all of us to feel seen. As she talked about raising two autistic sons, finding healing through writing, and learning to drop the shame she carried for so long, I found myself thinking about the many people who still hide their struggles because they don't want to be judged. I believe listeners will connect deeply with Jennifer's honesty. She shows that creativity can grow out of the very things we once thought were flaws, and that resilience is something we build each time we choose to show up as ourselves. This episode reminded me why I created Unstoppable Mindset: to hold space for stories like hers—stories that help us see difference as strength and encourage us to build a world where every person is valued for who they truly are. Highlights: 01:33 – See how early misunderstandings can shape the way someone learns to navigate people and communication.06:53 – Learn how masking and observation influence the way neurodivergent adults move through the world.11:21 – Explore how parenting experiences can open the door to understanding your own identity.12:20 – Hear how finally naming a lifelong pattern can shift shame into clarity and self-trust.20:46 – Understand why self-doubt becomes a major barrier and how stepping forward can change that story.25:57 – Discover how personal journeys can naturally weave themselves into creative work and character building.29:01 – Gain insight into why creative careers grow through endurance rather than rapid wins.30:55 – Learn how creative practices can act as grounding tools when life becomes overwhelming.33:20 – Explore how willpower and environment work together in building real resilience.40:23 – See how focusing only on limitations can keep society from recognizing real strengths.45:27 – Consider how acceptance over “fixing” creates more space for people to thrive.46:53 – Hear why embracing difference can open a more confident and creative way of living.51:07 – Learn how limiting beliefs can restrict creativity and how widening your lens can unlock growth.59:38 – Explore how curiosity and lived experience fuel a deeper creative imagination. About the Guest: J. M. Shaw lives in Alberta, Canada, with her husband and two young children. She has been writing for most of her life, though it took years to find the courage to share her stories. What began as a childhood hobby evolved into a passion that, at times, borders on obsession—and is decidedly cheaper than therapy. Though initially interested in teaching and psychology, Shaw ultimately graduated and worked as an X-ray technologist—all the while continuing to write in secret. Through it all, storytelling remained her constant: a sanctuary, a compass, and a way to make sense of the chaos. Her early work filled journals and notebooks, then spilled into typewritten manuscripts and laptop hard drives—worlds crafted from raw imagination and quiet observation. A pivotal turning point came in 2019, when Shaw was diagnosed with autism and ADHD. The news brought clarity to a lifetime of feeling “too much” or “too different.” She realized that her intense focus, emotional depth, and ability to live inside fictional worlds weren't flaws—they were the gifts of a neurodivergent mind. Her unique insights allow her to create characters with emotional realism, while her mythical creatures, societies, and belief systems draw inspiration from both history and modern culture. In many ways, her fantasy series mirrors her own arc: navigating society through the lens of autism, embracing her differences, and discovering where she belongs. Shaw's fiction blends magic with meaning, often exploring themes of identity, resilience, and redemption. Though her worlds are fantastical, her stories remain grounded in human truths. Her characters—flawed, searching, and sometimes broken—feel eerily real. Literary influences like Stephen King, Margaret Atwood, and Dean Koontz helped shape her genre-bending style, while her mother—an English major and blunt-but-honest critic—instilled in her a love of classic literature and the drive to become a better storyteller. In 2021, Shaw released The Ascension, the first book in her fantasy-adventure series, The Callum Walker Series. Since then, she's published three sequels, with dozens of short stories, poems, and manuscripts still in her vault. Though painfully introverted, she attends book signings and author talks to connect with readers—shedding ecstatic tears as they share how deeply her work resonates with them. While these moments can be overwhelming, they remind her why she writes: to create stories that matter. Currently, Shaw is working on the fifth installment of The Callum Walker Series, expanding the emotional arcs and raising the stakes in her imagined realms. Alongside it, she is developing a new dystopian-adventure that blends inequality, rebellion, love, and moral complexity. Whether indie or traditionally published, her dream remains the same: to see her books in bookstores across the world and to keep building worlds for those who need them most. Ways to connect with Jennifer**:** Website: www.jmshawauthor.com Facebook: jmshawauthor Instagram: @jmshaw_author About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And we put it that way, because a lot of diversity people never address the issue of or include people with disabilities in their world, and some of us confront that, and I specifically take the approach you either are inclusive or you're not. There's no partial inclusion. So we put inclusion at the first part of unstoppable mindset, then diversity and the unexpected, which is everything that doesn't have anything to do with inclusion or diversity, which is most things, but it makes it kind of fun anyway, and we're glad that you're here, wherever you happen to be listening or watching, the Podcast. Today, we get to chat with Jennifer Shaw. Jennifer is an author, and she's been a a closet writer part of her life, but but she came out of the closet and has been publishing, which is cool, and she has a lot of other stories to tell, unstoppable in a lot of different ways. So I'm sure we're going to have a lot of fun talking today, and I hope that you learn some interesting and relevant concepts to your world. So Jennifer, thanks for being here and for being on unstoppable mindset. We really appreciate you coming. Jennifer Shaw 02:36 Thank you so much for having me. Well, Michael Hingson 02:38 why don't we start at the beginning, and why don't you tell us about kind of the early Jennifer, early Jennifer, Jennifer Shaw 02:44 so I was very much of an introvert, very shy. I didn't really know how to talk to people. Kind of was trying to figure things out, and was having, was having a hard time figuring things out, and became more of a misfit. And I needed a way of dealing with, you know, my misunderstandings. I came became very much a people watcher, and for a while, that worked, but I needed an outlet in order to be able to analyze and sort out my ideas. And then my mom bought me a typewriter because, you know, I'm that old. And I started, I know about typewriters? Yeah, and I started writing as a hobby, and then it became a passion and obsession. Now it's just cheaper than therapy. And in 2019 I was diagnosed with autism and ADHD, which makes total sense, looking back at all the things that I used to do and the way I felt, it makes sense now, and I thought I never shared any of my stories, but I've been writing by that point for over 30 years. And I thought, well, maybe writing is my special interest. And I got brave, and I sent off my first book in my series. It's now published because I just finished that one at the time to an editor, and I'm thinking, well, the worst they can say is it sucks. And my editor came back and said, This doesn't suck. You should publish. So two years later, I did Michael Hingson 04:05 cool well. So of course, one of the big questions, one of the most important ones of the whole day, is, do you still have the typewriter? No, yeah, I know. I don't know what happened to mine either. It is. It has gone away somewhere. Jennifer Shaw 04:19 Mine was really cool. It was a plug in electrical one had a white out strip and everything. I gave a presentation for grade five classroom, and I told them, I got started on a typewriter, and then I was going into how I got published, and different aspects of fiction writing and and plots and character development, that stuff and that, after an hour and a half, the only questions they had to ask was, what's a typewriter? Michael Hingson 04:43 Typewriter, of course, if you really want to delve into history and be fascinating to learn the history of the typewriter, do you know it? Jennifer Shaw 04:51 No, I do not. Michael Hingson 04:53 So the among other things, one of the first ways a typewriter was developed and used was. Was a countess in Europe who had a husband who didn't pay much attention to her. So she had a lover, and she wanted to be able to communicate with her lover. She is blind, and so she couldn't just have people write down messages and relay them and all that. So somebody invented this machine where she could actually create messages with a keyboard a typewriter, and then seal them, and she could get her ladies in waiting, or whoever to to give them to her, her lover. That was her way to communicate with with him, without her husband finding out. Yeah, so the ultimate note taker, the ultimate note taker, I learned to type. Well, I started to learn at home, and then between seventh and eighth grade, I took some summer school courses, just cuz it was something to do, and one of them was typing, and I didn't even think about the fact that all the other kids in the class kept complaining because they didn't know what letters they were pushing because there were no labels on the keys, which didn't bother me a bit. And so I typed then, I don't know. I assume it still is required out here, but in the eighth grade, you have to pass a test on the US Constitution, and for me to be able to take the test, they got the test transcribed into Braille, and then I brought my typewriter in and typed the answers. I guess. I don't know why they didn't just have me speak to someone, but I'm glad they did it that way. So it was fine. I'm sure it was a little bit noisy for the other kids in the class, but the typewriter wasn't too noisy. But, yeah, I typed all the answers and went from there. So that was kind of cool, but I don't remember what happened to the typewriter over the years. Jennifer Shaw 06:52 I think it gave way to keyboards and, you know, online writing programs. Michael Hingson 06:58 Yeah, I'm sure that it did, but I don't know what happened to my typewriter nevertheless, but oh well. But yeah, I did, and keyboards and everything else. But having used the typewriter, I already knew how to type, except for learning a few keys. Well, even mine was a manual typewriter. And then there was a Braille typewriter created by IBM. It's called the Model D, and it was like a regular typewriter, except instead of letters on the the keys that went up and struck the paper, it was actually braille characters and it and it struck hard enough that it actually created braille characters on the paper. So that was, that was kind of fun. But, yeah, I'm sure it all just kind of went to keyboards and everything else and and then there were word processors, and now it's just all computers. Jennifer Shaw 07:53 Yep, yep. We're a digital age. Michael Hingson 07:55 Nowadays. We are very much a digital age. So you went to to regular school and all that, yep, Jennifer Shaw 08:04 and I was never like I was it was never noticed that I was struggling because, I mean, for the most part, women tend to mask it. That's why less, fewer women are diagnosed than men. I just internalized it, and I came up with my own strategies to deal with things, and unless you were disruptive to class or you had some sort of learning difficulties and stuff, you never really got any attention. So I just sort of disappeared, because I never struggled in school and I was just the shy one. Yeah, taught myself how to communicate with other kids by taking notes of conversations. I have notebooks where I'm like, okay, so and so said this. This was the answer, okay, there was a smile. So that must be what I need to say when somebody says that. So I developed a script for myself in order to be able to socialize. Michael Hingson 08:55 And that was kind of the way you you masked it, or that was part of masking it. Jennifer Shaw 09:00 That was part of masking it. I spent a lot of time people watching so that I could blend in a lot more, kind of trying to figure it out. I felt like I was an alien dropped off on this planet and that somebody forgot to give me the script. And, you know, I was trying to figure things out as I went. Michael Hingson 09:15 Well, maybe that's actually what happened, and they'll come back and pick you up someday, maybe, but then you can beat up on them because they didn't leave a script. Jennifer Shaw 09:25 Yeah, you guys left me here with no instructions, Michael Hingson 09:27 or you were supposed to create the instructions because they were clueless. There's that possibility, you know, Jennifer Shaw 09:33 maybe I was like, you know, patient X or something, Michael Hingson 09:37 the advanced model, as it were. So you, you went through school, you went through high school, and all that. You went to college. Jennifer Shaw 09:45 I did, yes, yeah, I went through I was going to be a teacher, but they were doing the teacher strike at that time, and that I was doing my observation practicum. And I was like, I don't know if that's something I want to go into. I'm glad I didn't. And. Instead, you know, I mean, I had an interest in psychology, and I took some psychology classes, and loved them. It intrigues me how the mind works. But I ended up going into a trade school I went to in Alberta. It's the, it's called an innate northern Alberta Institute of Technology, and I became an x ray technologist, and I worked in that field for many years. Michael Hingson 10:22 Did you enjoy it? I loved it. I love that I Jennifer Shaw 10:25 didn't have to, you know, like, yes, you have to work in an environment where you got other people there, but you can still work independently and, and I loved that. And I love this. I've always been very much a science math geek, you know, things numbers. I have a propensity for numbers and and then science and math, just, you know, they were fun. Michael Hingson 10:45 Yeah, well, I agree, having a master's degree in physics and I have a secondary teaching credential, so I appreciate what you're saying. It's interesting. I would think also, as an x ray technician, although you had to give people instructions as to where to position themselves and all that. It wasn't something where you had to be very conversationally intensive, necessarily, Jennifer Shaw 11:07 yeah, and I mean, people didn't, you know, I didn't spend a lot of time with each patient, and I was able to mask a lot of my awkwardness and stuff and short short bursts, so nobody really noticed. And, you know, I had fun with the science part of it. And, yeah, it just it was never noticed. Although the social aspects, interacting with co workers and stuff, was bit difficult after, you know, outside of the actual tasks, that was interesting. Michael Hingson 11:38 I have a friend who just recently graduated from school learning to be an x ray technician. And I tease her all the time and tell her, you got to really be careful, though, because those x rays can slip out of your grasp if you're not careful, that you just never know when one's going to try to sneak away. So you better keep an eye on them and slap it when it does. Yeah, go catch them. I sent her an email last week saying, I just heard on the news an x ray escape from your hospital. What are you doing to catch it? They're fun, yeah, but, but you, but you did all of that, and then, so how long were you an x ray technician Jennifer Shaw 12:22 a little over 10 years I retired once my kids were born, Michael Hingson 12:27 okay, you had a more, well, a bigger and probably more important job to do that way, Jennifer Shaw 12:36 yes, and I mean, like at the time, we didn't know that both my boys would be, you Know, diagnosed on the spectrum, both of them have anxiety and ADHD, but I just, I was struggling with with work and being a mom, and it, in all honesty, it was going to cost me more for childcare than it was for me to just stay home. Michael Hingson 13:00 How did your so when they were diagnosed, what did your husband think Jennifer Shaw 13:04 my husband was? He says, okay, okay, I get it. Yeah, I can see those things and stuff like that. And I know when from my perspective, because both my boys went through the ADOS assessment, my thoughts were, those are the things you're looking for, because I've done those my whole life. And then, so, like, my oldest was diagnosed in like, June or July, and I received my diagnosis that September, and then my littlest guy was diagnosed the following year. Michael Hingson 13:29 You went through the assessment, and that's how you discovered it. Yep. So how old were you when they when they found it? Jennifer Shaw 13:35 Oh, I don't know if I want to give ages. I was just under 40. Okay. Michael Hingson 13:40 Well, the reason I asked was, as we talked a little bit about before we actually started the recording, I've had a number of people on the podcast who learned that they were on the spectrum. They were diagnosed later in life. I've talked to people who were 40 and even, I think, one or two above, but it just is fascinating to learn how many people actually were diagnosed later in life. And I know that part of it has to do with the fact that we've just gotten a lot smarter about autism and ADHD and so on, which which helps. So I think that that makes a lot of sense that you can understand why people were diagnosed later in life, and in every case, what people have said is that they're so relieved they have an answer they know, and it makes them feel so much better about themselves. Jennifer Shaw 14:36 Yeah, I know for myself, once I was diagnosed, I've never really kept it a secret. I've, you know, I I've given myself permission to ask questions if I'm confused, and then it opens up the doors for other people, like I will, I will tell them, like some things I don't understand, like I don't understand sarcasm. It's difficult. I can give it I don't understand when somebody is being sarcastic to me, and there's some idioms. And jokes that I that just they weigh over my head, so I'm giving myself permission to ask if I'm confused, because otherwise, how will I know? Michael Hingson 15:11 Yeah, it's it's pretty fascinating, and people deal with it in different ways. It's almost like being dyslexic, the same sort of concept you're dealing with, something where it's totally different and you may not even understand it at first, but so many people who realize they're dyslexic or have dyslexia, find ways to deal with it, and most people never even know, yeah, yeah. Jennifer Shaw 15:39 Well, I mean, I've like, not this year, but within the last couple years, I've been diagnosed with dyslexia as well. And then come to find out that my father had it as well, but he just never mentioned. It just never came up. Michael Hingson 15:51 Yeah, yeah. It's, it's pretty fascinating. But human the human psyche and the human body are very malleable, and we can get creative and deal with a lot of stuff, but I think the most important thing is that you figure out and you learn how to deal with it, and you don't make it something that is a negative in your life. It's the way you are. I've talked many times to people, and of course, it comes from me in part, from the being in the World Trade Center. Don't worry about the thing you can't control. And the fact is that autism is there, you're aware of it, and you deal with it, and maybe the day will come when we can learn to control it, but now at least you know what you're dealing with. And that's the big issue, yeah. Jennifer Shaw 16:39 And I think it like you hit it on the nail on the head, is like, the reason so many adults are being diagnosed is because we know more about it. I distinctly remember somebody asking me shortly after I was diagnosed, and they asked me specifically, oh, what's it like to be autistic? And I was like, I don't know. What's it like to not be. It's all I know. You tell me what it's like to not be, and I can tell you what it's like to be. Says it's not something you can really, yeah, people just can't experience it, I guess. Michael Hingson 17:08 Well, people ask me a lot, what's it like to be blind, and what is it like that you're just live in the dark? Well, I don't live in the dark, and that's something that is so unfortunate that we believe that eyesight is the only game in town, or most people do, and the reality is, blindness isn't about darkness. So I don't see, all right, the problem with most people is they do see, and that doesn't work for them. When suddenly the power goes out and you don't have lights anymore. Why do you distinguish one from the other? It's so unfortunate that we do that, but unfortunately, we collectively haven't taught ourselves to recognize that everyone has gifts, and we need to allow people to to manifest their gifts and not negate them and not demean the people just because they're different than us. Jennifer Shaw 17:56 Yeah, and I know I've had I've had people tell me it's like, oh well, you don't look autistic, and I'm like, I don't know what you would expect me to look like, but I've honestly tried really hard not to think of of the autism and the ADHD. I tried really hard not to look at it as a disability. In my own life, I've looked at it as it's just my brain is wired differently. Yeah, I've explained this to my boys. It's, you know, our minds are always open. We can't filter anything that's coming in. And it's like our computer, you know, our brain, if you imagine our brain as being a computer, we've got every possible tab open trying to perform a million different tasks. We've got music playing here, video playing here. We're trying to search for this file. We can't find anything. And then every now and then, it just becomes very overwhelming, and we get the swirly wheel of death and we have to restart, yeah, but we can multitask like nobody's business until then well, and Michael Hingson 18:45 the reality is, most people can learn to do it, although focusing on one thing at a time is always better anyway, but still, I hear what you're saying. My favorite story is a guy wanted to sell me life insurance when I was in college, and I knew at the time that people who were blind or had other disabilities couldn't buy life insurance because the insurance companies decided that we're a higher risk. It turns out that they weren't making that decision based on any real evidence or data. They just assumed it because that's the way the world was, and eventually that was dealt with by law. But this guy called up one day and he said, I want to sell you life insurance. Well, I thought I'd give him a shot at it, so I invited him over, and he came at three in the afternoon, and I didn't tell him in advance. I was blind, so I go to the door with my guide dog at the time Holland, and I opened the door, and he said, I'm looking for Mike Hinkson. And I said, I'm Mike hingson. You are. I'm Michael Hinkson. What can I do for you? Well, you didn't sound blind on the telephone. And I'm still wondering, what are the heck does that mean? Jennifer Shaw 19:52 Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's just, I think, you know, it's a lack of understanding. And. You know, the inability to put yourself in somebody else's shoes? Michael Hingson 20:03 Well, I think we have the ability, but we just don't, we don't learn how to use it. But you're right. It's all about education. And I think, personally, that all of us are teachers, or should be or can be. And so I choose not to take offense when somebody says you don't sound blind, or makes other kinds of comments. I i may push a little hard, but I can't be angry at them, because I know that it's all about ignorance, and they just don't know, and we as a society don't teach which we should do more of Jennifer Shaw 20:38 Yeah, I know that once I made, you know, like I posted on my, you know, with talk to my friends and stuff about the fact that I have autism and that I just, I'm learning about it myself as well. I've had a lot of people come to me and ask me, it's like, well, what, what? What did you notice? How did you find out? And I think I might be on the spectrum. And there's, you know, and it's amazing how many people came out of the woodwork with queries about, you know, questions. And I was like, This is awesome. I can answer questions and educate, yeah, Michael Hingson 21:09 well, and it's true, and the only way we can really learn and deal with some of the stuff is to have a conversation, and to have conversations with each other and be included in the conversation, and that's where it gets really comfortable, or uncomfortable is that people don't want to include you. Oh, I could end up like that person, or that person just clearly isn't, isn't as capable as I because they're blind or they have autism. Well, that's just not true, yeah, and it's, it's a challenge to deal with. Well, here's a question for you. What do you think is the biggest barrier that that people have or that they impose on themselves, and how do you move past it? Jennifer Shaw 21:52 I think that the biggest barrier that people pose on them, pose on themselves, is doubting whether or not they're worthwhile and and I know I did the lat I did that for many years and and, like I said, it wasn't until I received my diagnosis, I thought maybe, maybe, you know, I won't know unless I try. So I got out of my comfort zone, and I surpassed my doubt, and I tried, and then I come to find out that, okay, I should publish. And I've had some, you know, I've had a lot of fun doing that, and I've seen some success in that as well. Michael Hingson 22:24 One of my favorite quotes goes back to the original Star Wars movie Yoda, who said there is no try, do or do not. Don't try. I think that's absolutely true. Do it. That's why I also totally decided in the past to stop using the word failure, because failure is such an end all inappropriate thing. All right, so something didn't work out. The real question, and most of us don't learn to do it, although some of us are trying to teach them, but the biggest question is, why did this happen? What do I do about it? And we don't learn how to be introspective and analyze ourselves about that, I wrote a book that was published last year called Live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith, and it's all about teaching people from lessons I learned from my dogs about how to control fear and how to really step back when things happen and analyze what you do, what you fear, what you're about and how you deal with it. But there's no such thing as failure. It's just okay. This didn't work out right. Why? Why was I afraid? Or why am I afraid now? And what do I do about it? And we just don't see nearly as much analytical thinking on those kinds of subjects as we should. Jennifer Shaw 23:49 Yeah, wasn't there a quote somewhere? I can't remember who it was. I think was Edison, maybe, that he didn't fail 99 times. He found 99 times how not to do it right, and he just kept going and going and going until we got it right. Yeah. The other Michael Hingson 24:04 one I really like is the quote from Einstein that the definition of insanity is trying the same thing every time and expecting something different to happen. I think Jennifer Shaw 24:12 they said that at my graduation from high school, you'll get what you got, yeah, Michael Hingson 24:19 and you can decide to look for alternatives and look for ways to do it better, but, but it is, I think you're I don't know if it was Edison, but I'm going to assume it was who said that, but I think you're right, and it certainly makes a lot of Jennifer Shaw 24:35 sense, yes, yeah, and I've tried to live by embracing, because I've told this to my kids as well, and I've embraced the idea that, you know, we learn better from our mistakes than we do from the things we did right, Michael Hingson 24:49 although we could learn if we really thought about it, when we do something right and we go back and look at it and say, What could I have done to even make that better? And we usually don't do that well, that worked out well, so I don't have to worry about that. Well, exactly we should, you know, Jennifer Shaw 25:07 2020 looking back and saying, Well, what would we have done if this had happened? We just sort of stop. It's like when you're looking for your keys in your house. Once you find them, you stop looking. You don't keep looking for possible places it could have been. You just stop the journey. Michael Hingson 25:20 Or you don't look at why did I put them there? That's not where I usually put them. Speaker 1 25:26 Yeah, exactly, yeah. So when Michael Hingson 25:30 you discovered that you were on the spectrum, what did your husband think about Jennifer Shaw 25:34 that? He thought it made sense. Um, that Michael Hingson 25:37 explains a lot about you. Jennifer Shaw 25:38 Yeah, a little bit might be on the spectrum as well. He might be ADHD, because he has a lot of the same traits as me. But he says, yeah, it's kind of not worth going and getting it checked out and stuff like that so Michael Hingson 25:54 well, until he he wants to, then that probably makes sense. Jennifer Shaw 25:59 And there's no reason. There's no reason. Yeah, Michael Hingson 26:03 things go well, and that that's the big, important thing. But you look at at life, you look at what's going on, and you look at how you can change, what you need to change, and go forward Exactly. So tell me about your writing. You have, you have been writing a series. What did you do before the series? What was sort of the first things that you wrote that were published? Jennifer Shaw 26:26 That I wrote a short story for in a classroom assignment, my teacher published it. Wrote a couple poems. I had a teacher, a different teacher published those. But this, the series that I've written is kind of my first foray into publishing and stuff. And then just prior to that, it was just writing stories for myself, or writing scenes that came to to mind that I wanted to explore, and a lot of them had to do with characters overcoming adversity, because that's how I felt. That was what was going on in my life, Michael Hingson 26:57 and it was so what's the series about? Jennifer Shaw 27:03 So it's a magic, fantasy action adventure, some supernatural suspense kind of all sprinkled in for good measure, because I get bored of my series is there's our world, our time, coexisting magical realm, but there's a veil that separates us, and we can't see across this veil because we don't have magic. But these creatures that do can and have and they've been the source of inspiration for our fairy tales and Monster stories. And then my main character, a young man by the name of Callum Walker, is born with the ability to use magic. He doesn't know why. He's trying to make the most of it. We do learn why as we go through the series, but he doesn't know. And because he has magic, he's able to cross this veil into this magical realm. And he's learning about this world. He's learning about the beings in it. Adventures ensue, and we follow him through the series, trying to figure out as he's trying to figure out who he is, where he belongs, because he's too magic for here, but to human care and then master these abilities to survive. Michael Hingson 27:56 So has he figured out an answer to the question of why or where? Jennifer Shaw 28:00 Not yet. No answers as we go, but he's learning more. Mostly it's he's learning to accept himself and to start to trust and open up. And, you know, instead of thinking that there must be something wrong with him, and that's why he has these abilities, he starts to think, Okay, well, what can I do with these abilities and stuff? So in a lot of ways, his journey mirrors mine Michael Hingson 28:23 well, and he's asking questions, and as you ask questions, that's the most important thing you're willing to consider and explore, absolutely. So are these self published, or does a publisher publish them? Jennifer Shaw 28:40 I'm indie, published through press company called Maverick first press. Michael Hingson 28:44 Inc, have any of the books been converted to audio? Jennifer Shaw 28:48 Not yet, but I am looking into it. Michael Hingson 28:51 Some of us would like that I do read braille, and I could get a book in electronic form, and I can probably get it converted, but it'll be fun if you do get them into an audio format. I love magic and fantasy, and especially when it isn't too dark and too heavy. I've read Stephen King, but I've gotten away from reading a lot of Stephen King, just because I don't think I need things to be that dark. Although I am very impressed by what he does and how he comes up with these ideas, I'll never know. Jennifer Shaw 29:20 Yeah, I know. I don't think that it's as dark as Stephen King, but it's certainly a little darker and older than Harry Potter series. Michael Hingson 29:26 So, yeah, well, and and Harry Potter has been another one that has been certainly very good and has has encouraged a lot of kids to read. Yes and adults, Jennifer Shaw 29:42 yeah, we don't all have to be middle grade students to enjoy a middle 29:46 grade book, right? Michael Hingson 29:49 Oh, absolutely true. Well, so if you had to give one piece of advice or talk about experiences, to write. Writers who are trying to share, what would you what would you tell them? Jennifer Shaw 30:05 I would say that writing and publishing, it's a marathon. It's not a race. Don't expect immediate success. You have to work for it. But don't give up. You know? I mean, a lot of times we tend to give up too soon, when we don't see results and stuff. But if you give up, you'll never reach the finish line if you continue going, you may, you know, eventually you'll reach the finish line, and maybe not what you expect, but you will reach that finish line if you keep going. Michael Hingson 30:30 Yeah, we we are taught all too often to give up way too early. Well, it didn't work, so obviously it's not the right answer. Well, maybe it was the right answer. Most people aren't. JK Rowling, but at the same time, she went through a lot before she started getting her books published, but they're very creative. Yep, I would, I would still like to see a new series of Harry Potter books. Well, there is a guy who wrote James Potter his son, who's written a series, which is pretty good, but, you know, they're fun, yeah. Jennifer Shaw 31:07 Oh, I mean, that's why we like to read them. We like to imagine, we like to, you know, put ourselves in the shoes of, you know, the superhero. And I think that we all kind of, you know, feel a connection to those unlikely heroes that aren't perfect. And I think that appeals to a lot of people. Michael Hingson 31:27 I think it certainly does. I mean, that's clearly a lot of Harry Potter. He was certainly a kid who was different. Couldn't figure out why, and wasn't always well understood, but he worked at it, and that is something that we all can take a lesson to learn. Speaker 1 31:45 Exactly yes. So Michael Hingson 31:48 given everything that goes on with you, if the world feels overwhelming at some point, what kind of things do you do to ground yourself or or get calm again? Jennifer Shaw 31:59 Well, writing is my self care. It's my outlet. It's therapy. Aside from writing, I I'm getting back into reading because I'm going to book signing events and talks and such, and everybody's recommending, oh, read this book, read this book, and I'm finding some hidden gems out there. So I'm getting back into reading, and that seems to be very relaxing, but I do go. I do have to step away from a lot of people sometimes and just be by myself. And I'll, I'll put my headphones on, and I'll listen to my my track. I guess it's not track anymore. It was Spotify. And I'll just go for a walk for an hour, let my mind wander like a video and see where it leads me, and then come back an hour later, and my husband's like, Oh, where'd you walk? Because, like, I have no idea, but you should hear the adventures I had, yeah, Michael Hingson 32:44 both from what you read and what you thought Jennifer Shaw 32:45 about, yeah, just the things going through my head. What? And then the same thing when I'm writing, I see it as a movie in my head, and I'm just writing down what I see a lot of times, long for the ride. Michael Hingson 32:55 Yeah, your characters are writing it, and you're just there, Jennifer Shaw 32:58 yeah, you know. And when I'm when I'm in the zone. I call those the zone moments. And I won't know what's going to happen until it starts to happen. And I'm writing a sentence, oh, I didn't know that was gonna happen. I want to see where this goes. And it'll take me to somewhere where I'm like, wow, that's an amazing scene. How could I, how did I think of that? Or, on the contrary, it'll take me somewhere and I'll be like, What is wrong with me? I know that came out of my head, but what is wrong with me? So, you know, it's a double edged sword, Michael Hingson 33:26 but write them all down, because you never know where you can use them. Jennifer Shaw 33:29 Oh, absolutely. I don't delete anything. I can just wind and then start again, see where it leads. And it never goes to the same place twice. Michael Hingson 33:37 That's what makes it fun. It's an adventure. I don't know. I think there's an alien presence here somewhere. Jennifer Shaw 33:44 Who knows? Maybe I'm the next step in evolution. Could Michael Hingson 33:47 be or you come from somewhere else. And like I said, they put you down here to figure it out, and they'll come back and get you Jennifer Shaw 33:57 well, but never know. There's so many things we don't understand. You know, Michael Hingson 34:00 well, then that's true, but you know, all you can do is keep working at it and think about it. And you never know when you'll come up, come up with an answer well, or story or another story, right? So keep writing. So clearly, though, you exhibit a lot of resilience in a number of ways. Do you think resilience is something we're born with, or something that we learn, or both. Jennifer Shaw 34:25 I think it's a little of both. You know, maybe we have a stronger determination or willfulness when we're born, but it can also be a part of our environment. You know, we develop things that we want to do. We develop desires and dreams and stuff. And you know the combination of the two, the you know, the willful resolve and the desire to dream and be better. And I think those two combined will drive us towards our our goals. Michael Hingson 34:53 Now are your parents still with us? Yes. So what did they think when. You were diagnosed as being on the spectrum. Jennifer Shaw 35:03 Um, I think my dad was more open to the idea. I don't think my mom believed it, but then she's kind of, she's kind of saying, like, okay, maybe, maybe it's, oddly enough, she was, you know, more open to the idea of me having ADHD than autism. And I just think there was just a lack of understanding. But as time has gone on, I think she sees it, not just in me, but I think she sees aspects of that in herself as well. Michael Hingson 35:28 And in a sense, that's what I was wondering, was that they, they saw you grow up, and in some ways, they had to see what was going on. And I was wondering if, when you got an answer, if that was really something that helped them or that they understood? Jennifer Shaw 35:46 Yeah, I I think so. Although I did internalize a lot of of my understandings and misconceptions about life, I internalized it a lot, and I was the annoying cousins because I just, you know, said the appropriate things at inappropriate times and didn't catch jokes and didn't understand sarcasm and and I was just the oddball one out. But I think now that my mom understands a little bit more about autism and ADHD, she's seeing the signs Michael Hingson 36:13 well, and whether she understood it or not, she had to, certainly, as your mom, see that there was something going on. Well, I don't know my I'm whether she verbalized it or she just changed it out. Jennifer Shaw 36:28 I think she was just, she was working two full time jobs raising five kids on her own. I think that there just wasn't enough time in the day to notice everything. 36:37 Yeah, well, Michael Hingson 36:40 but it's always nice to really get an answer, and you you've accepted this as the answer, and hopefully they will, they will accept it as well. So that's a good thing. Jennifer Shaw 36:54 Whether or not they accept it is up to them. I'm that's their choice. Yeah, yeah. It's their choice. The most important thing is that I'm understanding it. Michael Hingson 37:04 Yeah, well, and then helps you move forward. Which is, which is a good thing? Yes. So do you think that vulnerability is part of resilience? Jennifer Shaw 37:18 I think it's important to understand where we're vulnerable. It's like accepting your weaknesses. We all want to improve. We don't want to stay weak and vulnerable, but the only way to improve is to accept those and to understand those and to identify those so that we know where to improve. So I think that it is important. Michael Hingson 37:38 I think it's crucial that we continue to work on our own ideas and attitudes and selves to be able to to move forward. And you're right. I think vulnerability is something that we all exhibit in one way or another, and when we do is that a bad thing? No, I don't think it should be. I think there are some people who think they're invulnerable to everything, and the reality is they're not Jennifer Shaw 38:09 those narcissists. Yeah, Michael Hingson 38:11 was getting there, but that's and that's exactly the problem. Is that they won't deal with issues at all. And so the fact of the matter is that they they cause a lot more difficulty for everyone. Yep, of course, they never think they do, but they do. Yeah. Jennifer Shaw 38:30 I mean, if you don't accept the fact that you're not perfect and that you have weaknesses and vulnerabilities, then you're just it turns into you're just either denying it or you're completely ignorant. How do you Michael Hingson 38:41 balance strength and softness? And because, you know when you're dealing with vulnerability and so on, and it happens, well, how do you, how do you bring all of it to balance? Jennifer Shaw 38:50 Um, it's the yin and yang, right? Um, you know, the strength keeps you going, the softness keeps you open to accepting and learning. Michael Hingson 38:59 Yeah, that makes sense. It gives you the opportunity to to go back and analyze and synthesize whatever you're thinking. Yes. Well, autism is, by the definitions that we face, considered a disability, which is fine, although my belief is that everybody on the planet has a disability, and for most people, as others have heard me say on this podcast, the disability that most people have is their light dependent, and they don't do well if suddenly the lights go out until they can find a smartphone or whatever, because the inventors, 147 years ago created the electric light bulb, which started us on a road of looking for ways to have light on demand whenever we wanted it and whenever we do want it, when that works, until suddenly the light on demand machine isn't directly available to us when light goes away. So I think that light on demand is a lovely thing, but the machines that provide it are. Only covering up a disability that most people have that they don't want to recognize. Jennifer Shaw 40:05 And I'd also argue that the more dependent we become on technology, that the harder it is to adjust to, you know, the way we used to live. If you go to the grocery store, everything's automated. And if the power goes out at the grocery store, nobody knows how to count out change now, yeah, Michael Hingson 40:22 they they cannot calculate on their own. I continue to work to be able to do that. So I like to to figure things out. People are always saying to me, How come you got the answers so quickly of how much change or how much to leave for a tip I practice, yeah, it's not magical. And the reality is, you don't always have a calculator, and a calculator is just one more thing to lug around. So why have it when you can just learn to do it yourself? Yeah? Jennifer Shaw 40:49 Or we have a cell phone which has got everything on it. Michael Hingson 40:52 Oh, I know, yeah, there is that too. But you know, the the thing about all of this is that we all have disabilities, is what I'm basically saying. But if you use disability in sort of the traditional sense, and by that I mean you have certain kinds of conditions that people call a disability, although I will submit absolutely that disability does not mean a lack of ability. But how do societal definitions of disability, kind of affect people more than the actual condition itself, whatever it is. Jennifer Shaw 41:26 I think society as a whole tend to focus on the negatives and the limitations, and if you focus solely on those, then nobody can see beyond those to what a person can do, because there's a whole, you know, there's a whole lot out there that people can do. You can, you can learn to adjust to a lot of things. The brain is very malleable. And, you know, we're not just given one sense for one reason. You know, we have five senses, well, arguably more, depending on who you talk to, yeah, to feel out the world. And same thing with autism is, you know, I mean, I had a hard time those things that would come naturally to people, like socializing, learning to speak, even my son at the playground, he didn't know how to approach kids to ask him to play and but those things can be learned. They just have to spend the time doing it well. Michael Hingson 42:19 And I hear you, do you think that autism is under the definition of disability? Jennifer Shaw 42:26 I think it can be very debilitating. I think that, you know, and then some people suffer more severe. They're more ranges than than I do mine, but I do think that the brain can learn to adjust a lot, maybe not the same as everybody else, and there will be struggles and there will be challenges, and there'll be anxieties and and things is it is, in a way, a disability. It'll never go away. But I don't think it has to be debilitating Michael Hingson 42:59 struggles and anxieties, but everyone experiences that in one way or another, and that's, of course, the point. Why should some of us be singled out? Jennifer Shaw 43:07 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I do know, though, that with there's, I guess we call them an invisible disability, because I don't look autistic, I don't look ADHD, but I struggle inwardly. It's a lot more emotional. It's a lot more mental, you know, analyzing every conversation I've ever had. It's very exhausting and confusing, and it can lead to other things and stuff that, you know, I mean, I don't think everybody else goes around counting license plates obsessively, you know, adding up numbers on license plates and stuff. And if I don't, it can be very anxiety inducing. I don't think everybody else has to, you know, make notebooks worth of conversations to learn to talk to people and watch the world around them, to try to figure out how to act. I think for a lot of people, it comes naturally. And because I had to learn all those things on my own and stuff, it created a lot more anxiety than another person would have in that area, and life is already chaotic enough, you know, more anxiety on top of anxiety and such. Michael Hingson 44:11 Yeah, but some of that we create ourselves and don't need to. And again, it gets back to the fact we all have different gifts, and so some people are much more socially outgoing, so they can do so many more things that seem like everyone should be able to do them. But again, not everyone has the same gifts. Yeah, I think that we need to recognize that. Sorry, go ahead. I was gonna say, Jennifer Shaw 44:34 just like, not everybody has the same weaknesses, right? I learned. I think, you know, if we, if we learned to, you know, share the strengths that we have that might overcome somebody else's weaknesses and stuff. It would be a whole lot better place. Instead of trying to label everybody and segregate everybody based on their limitations, let's, let's look at their strengths and see which ones coordinate. Yeah. Michael Hingson 44:56 How does HD? ADHD manifest itself? Jennifer Shaw 45:00 Yeah, it's some, in a lot of ways, very similar to autism, and that's probably why it's now considered part of the autism spectrum. I have a difficult time focusing on things that I don't find intriguing, like, oh gosh, if I had to read a social studies textbook, I would go stark raving mad and fall asleep. And I've really hard time staying focused. Don't have to read the same paragraph 20 times, but you give me a textbook on physics, and I'm right in there, and I'll hyper focus for like, 12 straight hours, forgetting the world exists and don't eat, don't sleep, don't move, and I will just immerse myself in that. And then there's a difficult time regulating emotions so somebody gets upset about something for the most part. You know, you can calm yourself down and stuff like that. With autism and ADHD, it's really hard to regulate those emotions and come down from that hyper, hyper emotional state down to a normal state. Michael Hingson 46:00 I can see that in a lot of ways, it can look very similar to to autism in terms of the way you're describing it. It makes, makes sense, yeah, which? Which is something one has to deal with. Well, if people stop trying to fix what makes us different? What could we do with the world? How would things be different? Jennifer Shaw 46:22 I think the world be very interesting if we stopped trying to fix people and just started trying to accept people and see how, you know, like, I think that for one we would also be a lot more open to accepting people, but that would have to come first. And I think that would be amazing, because, you know, if we were all the same and we all tried to fit into the same mold, it's going to be a very boring place. Michael Hingson 46:46 The thing that is interesting about what you just said, and the question really is, when we try to fix things, why do we need to fix things? What is it that's really broken? And that's of course, the big issue is that people make assumptions based on just their own experiences, rather than looking at other people and looking at their experiences. Is that really broken? As it goes back to like when I talk about blindness, yeah, am I broken? I don't think so. I do things differently. If I had been able to see growing up, that would have been nice. But you know what? It's not the end of the world not to and it doesn't make me less of a person, and you happen to be on the autism spectrum, that's fine. It would be nice if you didn't have to deal with that, and you could function and deal with things the way most people do. But there are probably advantages, and there's certainly reasons why you are the way you are, why I am the way I am. And so why should that be a bad thing? Jennifer Shaw 47:48 I don't think it is. I mean, other than the fact that I would love to be, you know, not have to suffer with the stress and anxieties that I do, and the insecurities and the doubt and trying to figure out this world and where I belong and stuff, I wouldn't. I like the way my brain works. I like the way I think, you know, very What if, very out of the box, very creative mindsets. And I wouldn't change that for the world. Michael Hingson 48:15 Yeah, and I think people really should be accepted the way they are. Certainly there are people who we classify as geniuses because they do something that we didn't think of, and it catches on, and it's creative. Einstein did it. I mean, for that matter, there's something that that Elon Musk has done that has created this vehicle that no one else created successfully before him. Now I'm not sure that he's the greatest business guy, because I hear that Tesla is not the most profitable company in the world, but that's fine. Or Steve Jobs and Bill Gates created things. Did they do it all? Jennifer Shaw 48:56 Sorry, Sebastian Bach too. Yeah. I mean those prodigies, right? Michael Hingson 49:01 And they didn't do they didn't do everything. I understand that Einstein wasn't the greatest mathematician in the world, but he was great at concepts, and he had other people who who helped with some of the math that he didn't do, but, but the reality is, we all have gifts, and we should be able to use those gifts, and other people should appreciate them and be able to add on to what they do. One thing I always told employees when I hired people, is my job isn't to boss you around because I hired you because you demonstrated enough that you can do the job I want you to do, but my job is not to boss you, but rather to use my skills to help enhance what you do. So what we need to do is to work together to figure out how I can help you be better because of the gifts that I bring that you don't have. Some people got that, and some people didn't. Jennifer Shaw 49:50 Some people are just, they're less, you know, open minded. I think I don't know, like, less accepting of other people and less accepting of differences. And it's unfortunate. Passionate, you know, and that creates a lot of problems that, you know, they can't look beyond differences and to see the beauty behind it. Michael Hingson 50:11 Yeah, and, and the fact of the matter is that, again, we were all on the earth in one way or another, and at some point we're going to have to learn to accept that we're all part of the same world, and working together is a better way to do it. Yeah, absolutely. How do we get there? Jennifer Shaw 50:28 Yeah, I don't know. Maybe idealistic, you know, Star Trek society, or utopian society, you know. And maybe in 100 or 200 years, we'll get there. But if you think about 100 years ago, if you look at us 100 years ago, and then you think of all the technology that we have today, and that's in, like, one century is not a long time, given how long people have been on this planet. And look at all the things we've accomplished, technology wise, and look at all the great things that we have done, you know, and it's just imagine how many more, or how much, how much more we could do if we work together instead of working against each other. Michael Hingson 51:06 Yeah, and that's of course, the issue is that we haven't learned yet to necessarily work together. To some, for some people, that gets back to narcissism, right? They, they're, they're the only ones who know anything. What do you do? But yeah, I hear you, but, but, you know, I think the day is going to come when we're going to truly learn and understand that we're all in this together, and we really need to learn to work together, otherwise it's going to be a real, serious issue. Hopefully that happens sooner than later, Jennifer Shaw 51:39 yes, yeah, I don't think so, but it would be a nice to imagine what it would be like if it happened tomorrow. Michael Hingson 51:47 Yeah, how much potential do you think is lost, not because of limitations, but, but rather because of how we define them? Jennifer Shaw 51:58 I think we use limitations to set our boundaries, but by setting boundaries, we can never see ourselves moving past them, and nor do we try so. I think that setting limitations is hugely detrimental to our growth as as you know, creative minds. Michael Hingson 52:18 I think also though limitations are what we often put on other people, and oftentimes out of fear because somebody is different than us, and we create limitations that that aren't realistic, although we try to pigeonhole people. But the reality is that limitations are are are also representations of our fears and our misconceptions about other people, and it's the whole thing of, don't confuse me with the facts. Jennifer Shaw 52:51 Yes, yeah. And you know there's Yeah, like you said, there's these self limitations, but there's also limitations that we place on other people because we've judged them based on our understanding. Michael Hingson 53:03 Yeah, and we shouldn't do that, because we probably don't really know them very well anyway, but I but I do think that we all define ourselves, and we each define who we are, and that gets back to the whole thing of, don't judge somebody by what they look like or or what you think about them. Judge people by their actions, and give people the opportunity to really work on showing you what they can do. Jennifer Shaw 53:36 Absolutely, that's definitely a motto by which I've tried to live my life. I honestly don't know everybody out there. I mean, I don't think anybody does. And unless somebody gives me a reason or their behavior says otherwise, I'm going to assume that they're, you know, a good person, you know. I mean, if they, you know, if I assume this person is a good person, but maybe they smack me across face or take, you know, steal from me and stuff, then I'm going to judge those behaviors. Michael Hingson 54:02 One of the things that I learned, and we talked about in my book live like a guide dog, is dogs, and I do believe this love unconditionally, unless something really hurts them, so that they just stop loving. But dogs love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. But the difference between dogs and people is again, unless something truly has been traumatic for a dog. Dogs are more open to trust than we are. They don't worry about, well, what's this guy's hidden agenda, or why is this woman the way she is? The fact is that they're open to trust and they're looking to develop trusting relationships, and they also want us to set the rules. They want us to be the pack leaders. I'm sure there are some dogs that that probably are better than the people they're with, but by and large, the dog wants the person to be the pack leader. They want them to tell the dog, what are the rules? So. Every guide dog I've had, it's all about setting boundaries, setting rules, and working with that dog so that we each know what our responsibilities to the relationship are. And I think absolutely dogs can get that just as much as people do. They're looking for us to set the rules, but they want that, and the fact of the matter is that they get it just as much as we do. And if that relationship really develops, the kind of trust that's possible, that's a bond that's second to none, and we should all honor that we could do that with with each other too. Yeah, there are people who have hidden agendas and people that we can learn not to trust because they don't want to earn our trust either. They're in it for themselves. But I don't think that most people are that way. I think that most people really do want to develop relationships. Jennifer Shaw 55:51 Yeah, and another aspect of dogs too, is they're very humble, you know, they they don't, I mean, they probably do have some, you know, some egos, but for the most part, they're very humble, and they don't dwell on the mistakes of their past. They live in the moment. And I love Yeah, no, go ahead. They do absolutely they do Michael Hingson 56:14 one of the things that I learned after September 11, because my contacted the folks at Guide Dogs for the Blind about it, my diet, my guide dog was Roselle, and I said, Do you think this affected her, the whole relationship? And the veterinarian I spoke with, who was the head of veterinary services, the guide dogs asked, did anything directly threaten her? And I said, no, nothing did. He said, Well, there's your answer. The fact is, dogs don't do what if they don't worry about what might have been or even what happened if it didn't affect them? They they do live in the moment when we got home after the events on September 11, I took roselle's harness off and was going to take her outside. She would have none of it. She ran off, grabbed her favorite tug bone and started playing tug of war with our retired guy dog, Lenny. It was over for her. It was done. Jennifer Shaw 57:06 It's finished, the journey's done, and I'm living in this moment now, yeah, Michael Hingson 57:10 different moment. I'm not going to worry about it, and you shouldn't either, which was the lesson to learn from that. Yes, but the reality is that dogs don't do what. If dogs really want to just do what they need to do. They know the rules, like I said. They want to know what you expect, and they will deal with that. And by and large, once you set rules, dogs will live by those rules. And if they don't, you tell them that you didn't do that the right way. You don't do that in a mean way. There are very strong ways of positively telling a dog, yeah, that's not what the right thing was to do. But by the same token, typica

spotify live canada children europe english technology dogs discover voice star wars new york times speaker elon musk explore judge hospitals adventures harry potter monster adhd tesla blind hearing star trek ambassadors thunder stitcher stephen king holland passionate albert einstein ibm bill gates ebooks ascension writers unstoppable shaw correct yoda jk rowling rutgers university lenny literary world trade center alamo neurodivergent margaret atwood ados us constitution american red cross braille national federation guide dogs sebastian bach dean koontz michael h exxon mobile chief vision officer federal express scripps college james potter jennifer website michael hingson accessibe jennifer shaw american humane association thunder dog model d hero dog awards

Episode 394 – Unstoppable Connection: Ghana, Guides and the Power of Story with Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 5, 2025 68:10

Stories have a way of helping us recognize ourselves, and that's exactly what happened in my conversation with Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond. Nana shares what it was like to grow up in Queens, then suddenly move to a boarding school in Ghana, and how that experience shaped her identity in ways she's still uncovering today. As Nana describes her path from writer to author, her years of persistence, and the curiosity that led to books like Powder Necklace and Blue, I felt a deep connection to her commitment to keep creating even when the process feels uncertain. We also explored trust, partnership, and the lessons my guide dogs have taught me—all ideas that tie into the heart of Nana's storytelling. This conversation is an invitation to see your own life with more clarity, courage, and compassion. Highlights: 00:00:10 – Step into a conversation that explores how stories shape courage and connection. 00:01:41 – See how early environments influence identity and spark deeper questions about belonging. 00:02:55 – Learn how a major cultural shift can expand perspective and redefine personal truth. 00:23:05 – Discover what creative persistence looks like when the path is long and uncertain. 00:27:45 – Understand what distinguishes writing from fully embracing authorship. 00:33:22 – Explore how powerful storytelling draws people into a moment rather than just describing it. 00:46:45 – Follow how curiosity about history can unlock unexpected creative direction. 00:59:31 – Gain insight into why treating a publisher as a partner strengthens both the work and the audience reach. About the Guest: Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond is the author of Powder Necklace: A Novel, the award-winning children's picture book Blue: A History of the Color as Deep as the Sea and as Wide as the Sky, the collection Relations: An Anthology of African and Diaspora Voices, and My Parents' Marriage: A Novel. Tapped for her passion about Africa's rich fashion traditions and techniques, Brew-Hammond was commissioned by the curators of Brooklyn Museum's "Africa Fashion" exhibit to pen and perform an original poem for the museum's companion short film of the same name. In the clip, she wore a look from the made-in-Ghana lifestyle line she co-founded with her mother and sister, Exit 14. The brand was featured on Vogue.com. Every month, Brew-Hammond co-leads the Redeemed Writers Group whose mission is to write light into the darkness. Learn more about it here.Learn more at nanabrewhammond.com. Ways to connect with Nana**:** Instagram, Facebook and Threads: @nanaekuawriter Twitter: @nanaekua www.NanaBrewHammond.com ORDER my new novel MY PARENTS' MARRIAGE Read 2023 NCTE Award Winner & NAACP Image Award Nominee BLUE: A History of the Color as Deep as the Sea and as Wide as the Sky Read RELATIONS: An Anthology of African and Diaspora Voices , stories, essays & poems by new and established Black writers Shop Exit 14 , all weather, uniquely designed, 100% cotton apparel sustainably made in Ghana About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20 And a pleasant, Good day to you all, wherever you happen to be, I would like to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to have a conversation with Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond And Nana has a lot of interesting things to talk about. She's written books, she's done a variety of different things, and rather than me giving it all away, it'll be more fun to let her tell the stories and get a chance for us to listen to her. She is in Oakland, California, so she's at the other end of the state for me, and we were just comparing the weather. It's a lot colder where she is than where I live down here in Victorville, where today it's 104 degrees outside. And Nana, you said it was like, what, somewhere around 70. Yeah, it's 68 There you go. See lovely weather. Well, Nana, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here, and I want to thank you for taking the time to be with us. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 02:23 I feel the same way. Thank you for having me on your amazing show. And it's so wonderful to be in conversation with you. Michael Hingson 02:30 Well, I'm glad we get a chance to spend some time together and we can, we can talk about whatever we want to talk about and make it relevant and interesting. So we'll do that. Why don't we start with what I love to do at the beginning of these is to talk about the early Nana growing up and all that. So take us back as close to the beginning as your memory allows. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 02:52 Oh gosh, as my memory allows. Um, I so I was born in Plattsburgh, New York, which is upstate near Montreal, Canada. Michael Hingson 03:06 Been there. Oh, cool in the winter. I even crossed the lake in an icebreaker. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 03:12 But yeah, oh my gosh, wow. Okay, yeah. Bring back memories. Well, I was only there for till I was, like two years old. So, but I do, I have gone up there in the winter and it is cold. Yes, it is cold, yeah. So I was born there, but I grew up in New York City and had that really was sort of my life. I lived in New York, grew up in Queens, New York, and then at 12 years old, my parents decided to send me to Ghana to go to school. And that was sort of like a big, the biggest change of my life, like I know that there was a before Ghana and an after Ghana, Nana and so, yeah, wow. Michael Hingson 04:02 So, so when was that? What year was that that you went to Ghana? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 04:06 That was 1990 August of 1990 actually. Michael Hingson 04:11 So what did you think about going to Ghana? I mean, clearly that was a major change. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 04:15 Yeah, you know, I, you know, my parents are from Ghana originally. So when, you know, they would always talk about it. We, you know, back then phones, long distance phone calls to Ghana. I, you know, that was, that was the extent of my sort of understanding of Ghana, the food that we ate at home, etc. So going to Ghana was just sort of mind blowing to me, to sort of be crossing, you know, getting on a plane and all of that, and then being in the country that my parents had left to come to the United States, was just sort of like, oh, wow, connecting with family members. It was just, it was a lot. To process, because life was very, very, very, very different. So yeah, it was just sort of a wild eye opening experience about just the world and myself and my family that ultimately inspired me to write a book about it, because it was just, I just, it was a lot to process. Michael Hingson 05:25 Why did they want you to go to to Ghana to study? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 05:30 Yeah, so in the 90s, in New York City or and in the late 80s, there was the crack epidemic was happening, and we, you know, I mean, I remember, we lived in a house in Queens, and when we would, you know, part of our chores was to sweep in front of the house, you know, rake the leaves, that kind of thing in the fall. And we would, all the time there would be crack files, you know, like as we're sweeping up, and I didn't get there where we were young. My sister was, you know, a teenager. I was 12, and my, you know, my younger brother had just been born. He was just like a, like, a little under a year old. And I think my parents just didn't feel that it was a safe place for us as kids to grow up. And so, yeah, they wanted to kind of give us an opportunity to get out of, you know, that environment for a while. Michael Hingson 06:33 What did you think of it? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 06:35 I mean, you know, as a kid, you never want to leave what to you. So it was, I would say it was, it was, it was interesting. Because initially I loved it. I was like, I actually campaigned, you know, I was like, I really, you know, would like to stay in Ghana, but I didn't want to stay for, you know, the three years, which is what I what happened? I wanted to stay for maybe, like a year, kind of try it, you know, go to school for a year. I found it this really cool adventure, go to boarding school and on all of that. But my parents made the decision that we should just sort of ride it out and finish like I had to finish high school. And, yeah, so, so great for me. Michael Hingson 07:25 So you were there for three years, yes. So by you were 12, so by 15, you had finished high Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 07:32 school, yeah, because the system there is different. It's it was at the time the British system. So it was like a form system where I saw I entered in form three, because it was, it wasn't quite the equivalent in the sense that I probably should have started in form two or form one, but I was also an advanced student, and and they, the way the system there works is you have to take a common entrance exam from primary school to get into secondary school. So it's very difficult to get into school midstream there. So we had to go through all of these hoops. And, you know, there was an opening in form three, and that was higher than my, you know, than where I should have been, but I was advanced, so I was able to get into that school that way. You did okay. I assume I did. I mean, I struggled, which was interesting, because I was a very, you know, good, strong student in the States, but I struggled mightily when I first got there, and throughout, it was never easy, but I was able to manage. Michael Hingson 08:49 Now, did your sister also go to Ghana? She Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 08:52 did, and she was hopping mad. Michael Hingson 08:55 How old was she when you were 12, she was Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 08:59 17, so she Okay, yeah, almost about to go to college. She was really excited about, like, that portion of life. And then it was like, okay, she's in Ghana. She was hopping mad. Michael Hingson 09:13 Well, how long did she stay? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 09:16 Well, so she stayed for two years. Because what Ghana has is sort of like, at the time it was something called sixth form, which is, again, the British system. So it's sort of like a college prep in between the equivalent of that. So she basically did that in Ghana. Michael Hingson 09:38 Okay, well, and your little brother didn't go to Ghana, Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 09:44 not yet, not not yet. You Michael Hingson 09:47 mean they didn't send him over at one year? No, okay, well, that's probably a good idea. Well, so looking back on it, what do you think about having spent three years in. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 10:00 Ghana, looking back on it, I think it was actually really, really good for me. I mean, it was that doesn't take away from the fact that it was very difficult. It was very, very challenging, not only academically. It was I was bullied really hard at this boarding school that I went to. The girls just kind of made my life hell. But what was amazing about it for me was that I had, I had exposure to Ghanaian culture in a way that I would never have had in the States. As I mentioned to you, Ghana was sort of that country over there when I lived in America. And you know, it existed as you know, family members coming to visit, long distance phone calls, the food that we ate, that you know, the accents that we had, things that made us different, and at the time, that was not cool. You know, as a kid, you just want to fit in and you don't want to be different. And going to Ghana was my opportunity to learn that, wow, I didn't have to be embarrassed or ashamed of that difference. There was so much to be proud of. You know, my family was, you know, a sprawling family, you know, my my grandmother owned a business, my grandfather owned a business, you know, it was, it was really, it was eye opening, just to sort of be in another environment. People knew how to, you know, pronounce my name, and I didn't have to, you know, just explain things. And that was really affirming for a 12 year old and a 13 year old when you're going through that, you know. So it was really good for me. And in Ghana is where I came to know Christ. I became a Christian, and it was something that spiritually, I was not really, I don't know, I just didn't really think about spiritual. I did on some level. But going to Ghana, it everything just felt so palpable. It was really like we're praying for this. And it happened, you know what I mean, like, yeah. It felt very Yeah. It was just a time in my life when life really felt very the mysteries of life really felt like they were open to me, Michael Hingson 12:37 interesting and so you clearly gained a lot of insight and knowledge and experience over there that you were able to bring back with you when you came Yes, yes. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 12:55 When I returned to the States, I was just, I think of myself, I guess, as a weirdo. Like, when I came back, I just felt so weird because I couldn't really, fully, you know, connect with my friends, because I had missed out on three years of culture, you know. And you You don't realize how much culture means, like, until, like, you know, you don't have those references anymore. I didn't know the songs that were popular. I didn't, you know, know about, I forget, there was some sort of genes that were really popular while I was gone. I didn't know what they were. I didn't have a pair of them. So it was just sort of this, this interesting time. And I was also young, because I had finished high school, and I was 15, yeah, my friends were, you know, sophomores, yeah, you know, and I was beginning the process of looking into college. So it was just a really isolating time for me and I, but also, you know, interesting and I, again, I say it was, it was ultimately in the in the wash of it. I think it was good because it enabled me to sort of, I guess, mature in a way that enabled me to start college earlier. And, you know, sort of see the world in a much different way. Michael Hingson 14:26 So when you went to college, what did you want to do? Or had you had you decided to start laying plans for a major and what you wanted to do post college, Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 14:36 I did not know what I wanted to do. I kind of, I mean, I kind of thought I wanted to be a doctor. I thought I wanted to be a doctor. Like, all my life, growing up, I was like, I'm going to be a doctor. And I was a science student in Ghana, but I struggled mightily. But still, I went. I entered college with us. You know, the plans? To become a bio psychology major. And you know, I took two, three classes, well more than that, I did, like, a year of classes. And I was just like, This is not for me, not for me at all. But yeah, yeah. So it was, it was that was a little rough. Michael Hingson 15:21 Things happen. So what did? What did you go off and do? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 15:25 Then I ended up majoring in political science and Africana Studies, and it was, I remember taking a political science class my freshman year, and I, my my professor was amazing, but it was, it was interesting to me. I think looking back now, being able to think about the world in a way that was sort of linking history and politics and culture together. And I think that was interesting to me, because I had just come from Ghana and had been exposed to, like, sort of this completely different culture, completely different political system, and, you know, kind of having that, I that thinking, or that wonderment of like, wow, you can Life can be so different somewhere else, but it's still life, and it's still happening, but also having that connection as an American to America and what's happening there. And so holding both of those things in my hands when I got to college, I think I was, I just what I was really sort of intrigued by the idea of studying politics and studying culture and society, Michael Hingson 16:48 and that's what you did. Yes, I did. So you got a degree in political science. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 16:54 Yes, a double degree political science and Africana Studies. Michael Hingson 16:57 Africana Studies, okay, and again, that that's probably pretty interesting, because the the Ghana influence had to help with the Africana Studies, and the desire to to do that, and you certainly came with a good amount of knowledge that had to help in getting that as a part of your major. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 17:16 Well, interestingly, my focus was on African American Studies, because I really growing up as an immigrant, like with immigrant parents, their understanding or their their thought process wasn't necessarily, I don't know they weren't. They didn't really raise us to think about race or being black, because their consciousness wasn't about that. It was they were immigrants. You know what? I mean, they weren't thinking about that. So I was actually quite curious, because I did grow up in America and I was black, but I didn't understand, you know, the history of America in that way. And I remember, actually, when I was in was it the third or maybe it was the second or third grade, or maybe it was fifth grade. I did a project on the Civil War, and I remember being so interested in it, because I had, I just didn't, you know, it wasn't. I was so fascinated by American history because I really wasn't. I didn't, I didn't understand it in the way that maybe somebody who wasn't the child of immigrants, you know, might, you know, connect with it. So I was just Yeah, so I was really fascinated by African American history, so I ended up double majoring in it and concentrating on African American politics, which was really fascinating to me. Michael Hingson 18:55 Yeah, and there certainly has been a fair amount of that over the years, hasn't there? Yes, there has, but you can, you can cope with it and and again. But did your time in Ghana, kind of influence any of what you did in terms of African American Studies? Did it help you at all? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 19:15 Um, I, I don't know, because I don't because, because I think what, what I what, what Ghana helped me with was, I remember, I'll say this. I remember one time in Ghana, in class, we were reading a book by an author who had we were reading a play, actually by a Ghanaian writer who was writing about a Ghanian man who married an African American woman and brought her to his home. And there was a lot of clash between them, because, you know, they were both black, but they had different sort of backgrounds. Yeah, and I remember the teacher asking, because the. The the wife that he brought home, the African American woman, mentioned certain things about America, and no one in the classroom could answer any questions about America, and I was the only one who could. And I was, you know, very, very sort of shy in that in that school and in that context. But I remember that day feeling so emboldened, like I was, like, I can actually contribute to this conversation. And so maybe, you know, in on some level, when I got back to the states, maybe there was some interest in linking those two things together. But it wasn't as as is in life. It wasn't obvious to me. Then it was sort of just kind of me following my interest and curiosity. And I ended up, I didn't set out to be an Africana Studies double major, but I ended up taking so many classes that I had the credits. And, you know, I was like, Okay, I guess I'm I have two degrees now, or two, two concentrations, Michael Hingson 21:02 yeah, did you go and do any advanced work beyond getting bachelor's degrees? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 21:08 No, I did not. When I graduated, I initially thought I might get interested, get in, go to law school. But this was me again, following my muse. I realized that my real interest was in writing papers when I was in college. You know, give me a 15 page paper, 20 page paper, I was ecstatic. I loved writing papers. And I think that's one of the reasons, too, why I loved political science and Africana Studies, because we were assigned tons of papers, and it enabled me to sort of, you know, writing these papers enabled me to kind of think through questions that I had, or process what I was reading or thinking about or feeling. And so when I graduated from college, you know, I got, you know, a job, and was working, trying to figure out, Okay, do I want to go to law school? But at the time that I graduated, that was also during the time of, like, the.com boom, and there were a lot of online magazines that were looking for writers, and so I started, kind of, you know, submitting, and I got some some things published. And as that was happening, I was like, I think this is what I want to focus on. Michael Hingson 22:30 So when did you really know that you were a writer? Then? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 22:34 I mean, I don't I think that when I got back, when I started working, so I, ultimately, I got a job in advertising, and I was working, you know, as an assistant in the on the account side of things, but there was this whole creative department that, you know, got to, you know, come up with all of the, you know, the the taglines and write commercials and write jingles and all that kind of stuff. And I was, like, so fascinated by that, and that's what I thought, okay, I could if you know, I need a job, I need money, and I want to write, so maybe this is what I need to be doing. And so I ultimately did get a job as a copywriter and and I still, you know, do that work today, but I think I always knew that I needed to write, and I wanted to actually write about my experience in Ghana. So I remember, you know, I started kind of very fledgling. Would began to write into that, and I ultimately started writing that the book that became my first book, powder necklace, on the subway to and from work. Every morning I would wake up very early, write what I could get ready for work, right on the bus, right on the subway, you know, get to work after work. You know, repeat. And it took me many years, but that's what I did. And I wrote my first book, Michael Hingson 24:14 and that was published in 2010 right? Yes, it was, did you self publish? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 24:18 Or I well, I did not self publish. I was published by Simon and Schuster. Simon and Schuster's Atria Books, Washington Square press. And part of my process was I started just kind of, you know, the Internet. The Internet was new. It was something that was available to me. So I started just kind of Googling, how do you get published? And they said you needed a literary agent. So I started looking online for literary agents. And because I lived in New York City at the time, I would literally write my my query letters and like, hand deliver them different agencies. 90s, and one woman, after four years of looking, said, Okay, this sounds interesting. I'd love to meet with you. And I didn't believe. I was like, wow, I've been rejected for four years, and somebody actually wants this, and she was able to sell the book. And I was shocked. I was like, Simon and sister, okay? And at the time they bought it, the, you know, the America, the US, was going through the whole financial, you know, crisis, the recession, in 2008 so they held my book for a year, and then we began the process in 2009 and then they, you know, we were on track to publish it in 2010 Michael Hingson 25:46 Wow. Well, tell me about that book. Yeah. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 25:51 Powder necklace is a novel. It's a fictionalized account of my experience going to high school in Ghana. I when I went to school in Ghana. I went to a girls boarding school in the mountains of Ghana central region, and that school was going through a major water crisis. We did not, I mean, we the short story is that, I guess, because of we were on the mountain, the water pressure was very low, and so it was really difficult to get the water up that mountain. And they didn't have like enough, you know, tanks around the school and what have you. So we had one artificial well, and then we had, like, an underground well, and that was it. And the underground well wasn't always, you know, full of water to service the whole school. It was really difficult. So, you know, we had to bring in our own water, some. And then it became, if you had money, you could bring water. But if you didn't have money, you didn't and it was a very desperate time for for young girls without being not being able to take a shower on demand. And it was, it was wild. Michael Hingson 27:15 Where does the title powder necklace come from? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 27:19 So the title, I named it powder necklace, because, as I mentioned, taking a shower became this like symbol of the haves and the have nots. And, you know, all of this having water, really. And if so, what, what the girls, what we would do is, you know, after you've taken a bath, people would put tons of powder on their necks. And it was sometimes it was okay we didn't take a bath, so we're going to put powder on our necks to scented powder to cover the odor. But it was also a way, like if you had bathed, to sort of, you know, show off that you'd bathed. So for me, it was as I was reflecting on the on this as I was writing this story and reflecting on that whole experience, I thought, wow, it was sort of our way of holding our heads up, you know, in the difficult situation, and kind of making the best of it. So that's why I called it powder necklace, Michael Hingson 28:17 okay? And that was for children. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 28:20 Well, it was for young adults, young adults, but Michael Hingson 28:25 it was more writing than pictures. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 28:27 Yeah, it was a young adult novel. I actually, I mean, this was my first book. I really didn't know what I was doing. I just, I wrote the book and I didn't know that it was a young adult novel, until people were like, Yeah, you wrote a young adult novel. I'm like, okay, Michael Hingson 28:47 works for me. Well, what does, what does being a writer mean to you? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 28:54 Um, I think being a writer means to me being able to articulate. A time, a place, a mood, a moment, being able to articulate it, one for myself, but also to create a record that helps people who don't necessarily have that gift to be able to sort of put words to the experience of living at a time place, having a certain feeling about something. Michael Hingson 29:34 Do you think there's a difference between being considered a writer and being an author, are they the same, or are they really different? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 29:45 I do think that there is a difference, and not in a sort of, you know, highfalutin way. I think the difference is the fact that when you I think, like, when you asked me initially, like, when do you think that you you became. Became a writer. My My instinct is to say that I think I was always a writer, because I think if you write, you're a writer. And whether you're published or not, you're a writer. If you have that inclination, that gift, and you sort of invest in that gift, and invest and develop it. I think you're a writer, but I think with an author, I think then that's to me. I think of it as the business of being a writer, or the business of being, yeah, you are now sort of in business with your publisher. Publisher has invested a certain amount in you, and it then becomes a more sort of public facing thing. The work is not just for you anymore. The work is now being disseminated to a group and hopefully to as many people as possible, and you as the writer now have to figure out, like, how do I get to my audience? How do I maximize or expand the reach of this thing that I wrote? How do I connect with people around the story and build build a readership. And how do I ultimately, you know, the my desire and goal would be to live off of this. How do I make turn this into something that I can, I can do, you know, full time and live off of Michael Hingson 31:38 so you turn from a writer to being an author. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 31:42 I'm, yes, I am an author, and I'm and I'm hoping to get to the to the, you know, the point where I can do it 100% full time, and it be, you know, 100% lucrative in that way. Michael Hingson 31:56 So what are you doing now? In addition to doing books, I Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 32:01 also freelance as a copywriter, so I'm still copywriting, Michael Hingson 32:05 okay, I was wondering what you what you did? So you're doing, still marketing and jingles and all those things, yeah, well, I Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 32:13 I'm my focus. I do do that, but my focus is mainly in the digital space. So I write lots of websites and web ads and social media copy, and, you know, things of that nature, campaign work. Michael Hingson 32:33 Well, that's, is there anything that you've written or copy written that we would all know, Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 32:42 yeah, I mean, I did. I've done a lot. I guess the maybe the most recent thing that I've done that people might be aware of, or some people might be aware of, is the Brooklyn Museum in New York, did a an exhibition called Africa fashion. And I, they created a short film to promote it, and I, they commissioned me to write an original piece for it. And so I wrote that piece and and performed it in the film. So, you know, people who are into that kind of thing a museum, that that museum might be aware of it. But I've also written for, I did a lot of work for L'Oreal Paris, USA, and I've just done a lot of beauty work. So many of the beauty brands you might be aware, you know, you might know, I've done some work for them, cool. Michael Hingson 33:45 Well, that, you know, you do have to do things to earn an income to to be able to afford to write until you can do it full time. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 33:53 Yeah, yeah. And I actually really love copywriting. I think it's an it's been an incredible teacher in the sense of how to how to crystallize an idea in very short, you know, in just a few words, how to convey emotion in just a few words. And also that storytelling is not just the words, it's how you deliver the story that's all part of it. So I think it's been an incredible teacher in that way. Michael Hingson 34:28 I know for me as a speaker, it is how you tell the story. And I've learned over 23 and a half years of speaking how to take people inside the World Trade Center and actually have them travel with me and do all the things that, and experience all the things that that I went through, and then come out of the other side and I and I say that because so many people after I speak somewhere, well. Come up and say, we were with you in the building. We were with you with everything that you did. And I appreciate that there is a real significant art to storytelling, and part of it is also, and I'm sure that this is true for you as a writer and an author, that part of it has to be that you have to actually connect with the audience. You've got to understand the audience. You've got to connect with them, and you have to bring them along, because they're not expecting to go with you. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 35:33 Absolutely, absolutely. And I will say that I started one of your books just the beginning of it, and I was just running with Roselle, and I was so taken, so absorbed by the first few pages of it. You really do immerse us. And I think that that's the best kind of of writing. You know, when you're able to kind of present material that people may or may not be familiar with, and make it riveting and really bring us into it, and then have us invest being, feel invested well. Michael Hingson 36:16 And I think the last book that we did last year live like a guide dog. I worked really hard to make sure that we were drawing people into the experiences, because every chapter is actually taking lessons from one of my guide dogs and also from Fantasia, which who is my wife's service dog, but each chapter relates to one of those dogs, and I wanted them to be environments where people again were drawn in and appreciate the dogs for what they are and what they do, not just some dumb Animal that comes along. Yeah. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 37:00 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, so interesting. I think there's, there's so much, I guess. I don't want to use the word, I guess what I want to say, there's a lot of mystery in in the sort of human animal interaction, and people just aren't aware of how powerful it is, and I can, I'm saying that I speak for myself, because growing up, actually, I was really, really scared of dogs and animals, all animals, and I so there's, there's two, there's kind of two stories I'll share. But one is when we were, when we were growing up, my parents, you know, were from Ghana. They wanted to eat goat meat. And at the time, you couldn't just go to a supermarket goat meat. So we used to go to a farm out in New Jersey that had goats, and we would have to go and have the goat, you know, slaughtered and, you know, cut up and all that kind of stuff for the meat. And I remember that whenever the hand would go into, you know, the pen where the goats were, the goats would just were. They would be so stressed out, they would like, you know, part like the ocean walked in, and if he picked, when he picked one out. There would be other people, other goats in the pen that would start screaming in agony, along with the goat that had been picked out. And I was just like, Oh my gosh. That must be his family members, like, or his loved ones. And it was so I remember that was so eye opening to me, like, wow. So I ended up years, years later, I wrote a short story, and I actually did some research on goats and how brilliant they are, and I was just like, wow, oh my goodness, I remember that so well. But I have a cat right now, and my kitty cat is just such a such a joy, like just sort of to build that relationship with, with my with my pet, is just such a beautiful thing, and how she just kind of, because I grew up really scared of pets, and I sort of inherited her when I got when I got married, you know, she's been very patient with me, like, because at first I was so skittish around her, and I could see her, kind of like rolling her eyes, like, I mean, you no harm. You can pick me up. It's all good. And she's just been so wonderfully patient with me. We've built that bond over time. Michael Hingson 39:31 Well, yeah, I have, of course, my my eighth guy, dog, Alamo, and stitch the cat. Stitch is 15 and a half and a real cutie pie. We rescued her. Actually, there were people who were living next to us, and he was moving out. His wife had died, and he just told the people who were moving all of his stuff out, take the cat to the pound. I don't want anything to do with it. And we, we said, Absolutely not. We'll find it a home. And then I asked, What the. Cat's name was, and they told me the cat's name was stitch. And I knew that this cat wasn't going to go anywhere because my wife had been, well, my wife had been a quilter since 1994 and a quilter is never going to give away a cat named stitch. Yes. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 40:14 Oh, I'm so glad stitch found a home with you. Michael Hingson 40:18 Oh, yeah. Well, we found a stitch. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 40:20 Oh, that's right, that's right. Michael Hingson 40:23 And, and, and so she's, she's got lots of personality. And so it really works out pretty well. No, no complaints. And I've always said, Whenever I get a guide dog, because my wife has always had cats, when I get a new guide dog, I've always said, and will continue to say, it has to be a dog that's been raised around cats and has no problems with cats. I have seen a couple of Guide Dogs, actually, that hated cats, and one almost killed a cat, and that's I will never tolerate that. Yeah, they have to get along. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely now, when we brought Alamo home, stitch had a few concerns about this dog in her house. She got over it when she decided that Alamo wasn't going to do anything to bother her and they they talk all the time now and rub noses and all that sort of stuff. Oh, that's so cool, yeah, but, but it's, it is great, and they, they bring so much joy and so many lessons to us that I think it was really important to learn. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 41:34 Yeah, yeah. You're reminding me the first dog, because my grandmother actually loves animals, and when I went to Ghana, she got a dog, and, you know, as a kid, so we got a puppy. And I remember the puppy was initially supposed to be a guard dog, but we I, I would feed the I would hand feed the dog sausages and just spoil the dog so much. Could not be a guard dog, so I loved that dog. Joshua, yeah, Joshua, Michael Hingson 42:07 well, but you and Joshua got along really well. On we got along great. One of the things that people sometimes ask me is if my dog trained to protect and the answer is no, they're not trained, and then they've said, Well, what would happen if somebody were to decide to attack you with the dog around? And my response will always be and rightly so, I wouldn't want to be the person to try that and find out what will happen, because much more than guarding, there's love. And I've always believed that dogs love unconditionally. I think trusting is a different story. They are open to trust, but, but you have to earn their trust. They'll love you, but will they trust you? That depends on you. And so it's it's really pretty cool, but I would not want to be the person to ever decide to try to attack us, because I, I am sure that Alamo would not tolerate that at all. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 43:10 Oh, not at all. How do, how do you or how have you built trust with your your pets? Michael Hingson 43:17 Well, a lot of it has to do with they want us to be the pack leaders. They want us to be their team leader. And so I have to set the ground rules. So, for example, no jumping on the furniture and all that. But again, it's also how you convey that. So if my dog is going to jump up on something and I don't want that, I'll say, leave it. And as soon as the dog obeys, I'll give the dog a food reward, a kibble, to let the dog know, and I'll also use a clicker, but I'll let the dog know I approve of what you did, not punishing them for, you know, something else. Yeah, so it's not punishment, it's positive rewards. I think that's extremely important, but also it is in the stressful times being very focused and calm. So if we're walking somewhere and we get lost, that is not the dog's fault, because it's my job to know where to go and how to get where I'm going, and it's the dog's job to make sure that we walk safely to get there, so if we get lost, that's on me. And what I can't do, or shouldn't do, is panic and become very fearful and upset, because the dog will sense that I have to stop and figure it out and continue to praise the dog, saying what a good job you're doing, and so on. And those kinds of things are the things that will, over time, build that trust. I think it takes a good year to truly build a trusting relationship that is second. To none. And that's the kind of teaming relationship that you want, whether it's a guide dog or any dog. And even as far as that goes, although they're different cats, yeah, but it's, it's all about building that relationship and conveying the command and conveying that you want to trust and be trusted? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 45:24 Yeah, yeah. I think you're you. What you said that really resonated with me is that they want to know. They want you to be the pack leader and the and part of that is, you know, you lay down the ground rules, but also you're responsible for them and their well being. And, yeah, that really, that really resonated with me. Michael Hingson 45:48 Well, so you wrote your first book, and then when did you write your second book? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 45:55 My second book came out in 2022, so it was a 12 year spread in my first book and my second book, Why so long? Oh my gosh, my book, I was the book I was working on, like to sort of follow, was just rejected for, for all that whole time, and I was, you know, in more and more distraught, and, you know, in despair about it. I didn't know what to do about it. And I actually, you know, I was actually reading the Bible, and I came across the fact that there was a curtain, a blue curtain, in King Solomon's temple. And I was like, why does it matter that the curtain was blue? And so I just started googling casually, and I discovered that there was a snail in antiquity that was harvested for the blue drops that it it secreted, or it secreted drops that were ultimately oxidized to turn blue. And I was like, what I've never heard about this? I started doing some more research, and I realized, like, oh my gosh, the color blue has such a fascinating history. Kids need to know about this. And so I wrote it really as a poem initially, but then I thought, you know, I really want to see if I can get this published. And I was able to get it published, and that became my children's book blue, which was such a bomb to my soul, because after sort of a decade of getting, you know, rejected, and, you know, close to a decade of getting rejected, this, this sort of beautiful, like, sort of knowledge, you know, I came across, But I was able to create a book, and it's just been a wonderful experience with the children's Michael Hingson 47:45 book, wow, so the full title of blue is, Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 47:51 it's blue a history of the color as deep as the sea and as wide as the sky. Wow. Michael Hingson 47:57 That should be enough to get the book sold. But as you point out, there's, there's a lot of history, yes, and that, that's pretty cool. So it was, it was released in 2022 and they finally, the publishers finally bought into that, huh? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 48:16 Well, yeah, I mean, that wasn't the novel that I've been working on. So I was still working. I ultimately, I did sell the novel, but that was its own journey, and I ended up writing another book that became the book is called my parents marriage, and it is not about my actual parents marriage. It's a novel about a young woman for adult readers. It's my first book for adult readers, and it is about a young woman whose parents are in a polygamous union, and how they're they have a really turbulent polygamous union, and how that relationship kind of kind of cast a shadow on this woman's, you know, choices in relationships and marriage for herself. Michael Hingson 49:10 So you you publish that my parents marriage. You also did a collection relations. Tell me about relationships. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 49:18 I did. Yeah, so relations is an anthology of its stories, essays and poems that are by writers from all across the continent of Africa. So I have Egyptian poets and Libyan you know essayists and you know, Nigerian storytellers, just it was, it was a really amazing project to work on. I started working on it during August of 2020, which was sort of like I've heard it described as peak pandemic, right? You know, we were several months. Into lockdown, and you know, it became this wonderful way for me to kind of connect while I was sort of holed up in my apartment in New York. Michael Hingson 50:15 Okay, now, were you married by then? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 50:18 No, I was not. I had just started dating my now husband, and I was like, Am I ever gonna see this man again? Because he lived in California, so at that time, the planes were grounded. I remember we were, like, on the first, very first flights that were able to start, you know, that started and be on planes, there'd be like, four people on the entire plane. Michael Hingson 50:42 Yeah, hopefully you both weren't on planes going against each other at the same time. No, you did communicate a little more than that. Oh, good. Well, so you published. So when was well? What was relations published? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 51:02 Relations came out in 2023 okay, February of 2023, and my parents marriage came out in July of 2024. Just came out in July of 2025, Michael Hingson 51:14 which one the paperback of the paperback? Oh, okay. Have any of them been converted to audio Yes, Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 51:23 all, but my first book, are audio books. So blue is an audio book, beautifully read, and then their relations, the stories and essays and poems are read by two speaking artists, and then my parents, marriage is is also wonderfully performed. So, yeah, they're all an audience. Michael Hingson 51:50 That's cool, yeah. So when you're writing, what, what's kind of the difference, or, how do you differentiate between writing for young people and writing for adults. There must be differences. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 52:07 Yeah, I think, I think with for young people, and the practical thing that I try to do is make sure that the vocabulary is are is familiar to them, mostly familiar. I like to put in a stretch word now and then to kind of get them to, like, get to the dictionary and find out what. But if I'm right, when I when I wrote blue, for example, knowing that, you know, the the age group is, the age spread is four to 888, year olds are in third grade. Four year olds are in pre K, so that's that's pretty big spread. So my sweet spot is first and second grade vocabulary words. Okay, it has to be something that they've been exposed to. So thinking of it in that way, the other thing too is breaking down concepts that are, you know, as adults, you know, we just assume that you know, or you can go look it up, but just kind of thinking it through. So if I'm talking about, instead of saying that, you know, there was a snail in antiquity who, you know, heart, you know, dyers were harvesting blue dye from these snails through after a process of oxidation. I wouldn't use any of those words. I would say, snail produced some drops that when exposed to the air and the sun turned blue. And so just sort of really, kind of being mindful of that, and also thinking very visually, writing, very visually. How can I create pictures with words that would be familiar to a child, that can sort of ignite their imagination? Michael Hingson 53:53 Yeah, I think it's extremely important to to deal with the visual aspects of it, but using words and really drawing again, drawing people in because if you just say, well, you can see this in this picture. That doesn't mean a lot, and you're also, I would think, helping to teach or create the concept that some people might some children might want to go off and write because they like how you say and what you say Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 54:24 absolutely and when I when I talk to kids, I go or visit schools, I invite them like I wrote about the color blue. What's your favorite color? These are some some things that I did to kind of learn about it. You can do these things to learn about your favorite color and write your own book? Michael Hingson 54:42 Yeah, yeah, it's, I think, so important to really draw people in and get them to think. And I think it's so much fun for me, I do some of that, but I have probably more of a chance. Challenge, because kids want to play with the dog. Yeah, it's all about the dog. I did a lecture at a K through six elementary school in San Francisco several years ago. I'm trying to remember what school it was anyway, and the teacher said you can only talk for about 10 or 12 minutes, because they just won't pay attention any longer than that. 35 minutes later, I finally ended the discussion, because they were so fascinated to hear me talk about what my dog did. And then I carried that over to how blind people work and function and all that. And the fact is, they were fascinated. The teachers couldn't believe it, but for me, it was a great lesson to know that it's all about creating these pictures that people can follow, Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 55:53 yeah, and also to extending those pictures or those words into an experience for kids. Yeah, they really, they really appreciate, sort of like seeing it, kind of, you know, see if the having the concept come to life, yeah, way. And so I'm sure when they see your dog, or are able to interact with your dog, that must be so wonderful for them, Michael Hingson 56:22 but it's important for them to understand what the dog is all about. So by the time they get to interact with the dog, we've talked about things like, you never pet a guide dog in harness. This is what a guide dog does, and this is what they don't do. There are a lot of things to to cover. So it's great when I have the opportunity to really teach them. And sometimes we'll walk around a classroom and I'll show them what he does. Yeah, it's important to be able to do that. Oh, I love that. I love that. And he loves it, of course, all the way. So no question about that. He's you haven't lived until you've seen two or 300 kids all wanting to pet this dog. And the dog knows what to do. He's down on the floor with every appendage stretched out as far as he can go to maximize petting places, petting. Oh, it is so funny. I love that. He loves it. He's, he's, he's so happy. He doesn't care whether he'll do it more with kids even than adults, but, yeah, he'll do it with everybody. It's all about petting me and just remembering I'm the dog. I love that. Well, you've gone through a fair amount of time between books, and I'm sort of curious, what do you think about all the various kinds of changes and ebbs and flows that have come along in the book business, in the book publishing business and so on. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 57:56 Yeah, there have been a lot of changes. Um, I think, um, when my first book came out, like things like, you know, Instagram Bookstagram did not exist. There weren't many sort of podcasts or things of that nature. So I think that there is, there's definitely, there are more venues and more platforms to, you know, get the message out about the book. But I think also there is, it's also just hard. It's in some ways, it also feels in some ways more challenging to get the word out, because in addition to, like, yes, there are more venues in that way, regard, there are fewer book reviewers and fewer places to get a book reviewed, and there's a whole kind of interesting business about around getting reviews. So it's just not the same in that way. But then at the same time. I think what remains the same is connecting with readers. I think the most effective thing is, you know, writing a book that's good and then getting people who have read it and liked it to evangelize, to tell people I liked it, please buy it, or you should have you heard of and because at the end of the day, you know, that's what's going to, you know, give it some wind Michael Hingson 59:30 when thunder dog came out, and we did mention about reviews, and it actually has had, like well over 1600 reviews since it came out in 2011 live like a guide dog hasn't had, of course, so many yet, but every time I get a chance to talk about that book, I ask people to go review it and tell them why it's so important, because potential readers want to know what people think of the book. Yeah, for sure. For sure, it's. It really is important for readers to review and just be honest and say what you think. It's fine, but people should do that. For me, I think one of the biggest things that I see that publishers are doing less of is in a lot of ways, true marketing. You don't, you know, you don't see them doing nearly as much. Of course, I know it's more expensive, but to help create book tours or anything like that, they focus only on social media, and that's not the way to market the book. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 1:00:33 Yeah, I think, I mean, I've never worked inside a publishing office, so I don't know what actually, how they make these decisions and what goes on, but I do. I think what I have come to sort of think, how I've come to think of it, is the publisher is my business partner, sort of invested in terms of, they've given me an advance. They're going to do the turn key things like, you know, make sure the book gets reviewed by Publishers Weekly, or, sorry, Publishers Marketplace, or no Publishers Weekly. I was correct, and Kirkus review, Kirkus right, and all those kinds of things. And maybe they'll do a mailing to you know who they believe are the people that they need to mail it to. But outside of that, unless you know you, you know it's stipulated in your contract, or you know you are that high, yeah, you know that that celebrity author, or that that best selling author that they you know, are willing to put that money behind. You're working with some your publicist, who's been assigned to your book has is probably working on 10 other books. Can devote so much to it. And so what I've learned is thankful. I'm thankful that, you know, I have this publisher, but I also know that I need to do a lot of work on my own to get Michael Hingson 1:02:04 you've got to be your best marketer, yes, but, but there's value in that too, because you can tell the story whatever it is, like no one else, exactly, exactly. And so that's that's really pretty important, yeah, Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 1:02:18 for sure, for sure. And you can be, you know that I think, also giving yourself permission to be creative, yeah, you know, how can you get the word out in really creative ways, like, again, the publisher. These are things that like, if there was, you know, people, there were many people dedicated to your book for this amount of time, they could kind of sit there and brainstorm and do all those things. But, you know, the reality is, in most cases, it's a small it's a lean and mean team. They don't have that bandwidth, so yeah, just kind of coming up with creative ways. And at times, what I have learned to do is, how can I, if I have an idea that is maybe low cost and but I can't necessarily do it on my own? How can I ask them for support, because they do have, you know, a little bit more resources, Michael Hingson 1:03:16 yeah, and, and the how is really pretty simple. Actually, you just ask exactly, exactly, and you know either they will or they won't, or you'll share it, or whatever. And I have found that same thing to be true. Well, Nana, if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? If they might want to talk about you doing copywriting for them or whatever, how can people find you? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 1:03:41 So my website is Nana brew-hammond.com, can you spell please? It's n, a n, a, b, r, e, w, H, A, M, M, O, N, d.com, and I have a newsletter there. So a newsletter sign up. So they can sign up to be a part of my newsletter and connect with me that way. They can also find me on Instagram, I'm at n, a, n, a, e, K, U, a writer on Instagram, and I'm also on Facebook at that same name, and then on Twitter, I am that without the writer. So, n, a, n, a, e, K, U, a, Michael Hingson 1:04:28 okay, cool. Well, I hope people will reach out and and I hope that they will read your books and like them and review them. I hope the same thing. Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching us today. We really appreciate you being here with us. I'd love to hear what you think. Please feel free to email me. I'm reachable at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I. B, e.com, Michael H i@accessibe.com love to hear your thoughts and love to get your your opinions. I would really appreciate it if you would give us a five star rating when you have the opportunity to review this podcast. We really value your ratings and reviews very highly, and definitely want to know what you think, but please give us a great rating. We love that. If you know anyone who wants to be a guest on a podcast, or you think ought to be a guest, we're always looking for guests. And Nana you as well. If you know anyone, we're always looking for more people to come on the podcast and tell their stories. So we appreciate it. If you'd let us know. By the way, you can also go to my podcast page, www dot Michael hingson, M, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s o n.com/podcast, that's another way to reach out to me as well. But definitely anything you can do to bring more folks to us, we value it very highly. And so with that, once again, Nana, I want to thank you for being here. This has been great. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond 1:06:01 Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me on, and you are such an inspiration. And thank you. Michael Hingson 1:06:13 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

united states america jesus christ american new york california canada black children new york city stories kids internet bible discover british san francisco new york times deep africa new jersey explore african hospitals african americans color states sea blind queens animal civil war cat montreal ambassadors thunder exit stitcher egyptian oakland ebooks ghana unstoppable publishers vogue nigerians wide guides brew rutgers university hammond schuster world trade center stitch fantasia king solomon ic googling alamo ghanaian american red cross african american studies publishers weekly libyan power of story tapped national federation africana studies guide dogs brooklyn museum kirkus michael h ghanian washington square plattsburgh victorville exxon mobile chief vision officer atria books federal express scripps college my parents michael hingson accessibe american humane association ekua thunder dog hero dog awards

Episode 393 – Why Realigning from the Inside Out Creates Unstoppable Energy with Kassandra Hamilton

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 2, 2025 62:42

Burnout shows up quietly, and in this conversation, I think you will hear just how deeply it can shape a life. When I sat down with Kassandra Hamilton, she opened up about building a meaningful career in global and Indigenous health while struggling with exhaustion, anxiety, and the pressure to look like everything was fine. Her turning point came when she finally stopped long enough to ask what she truly needed. Kassandra talks about people pleasing, giving her power away, and the inside out process she now teaches to help others realign their lives. We walk through the RAIN method, the importance of boundaries, and the small daily choices that help you rebuild trust in yourself. My hope is that you walk away feeling grounded, encouraged, and ready to take one step toward a more aligned and Unstoppable life. Highlights: 01:12 – Learn how early purpose can quietly shape the path you follow. 02:51 – See how a wider view of global health reveals what truly drives burnout. 06:56 – Understand how systems and technology can add pressure when they overlook human needs. 12:50 – Learn how hidden emotions can surface when you slow down and pay attention. 17:37 – Explore how reclaiming your power shifts the way you respond to stress. 24:23 – Discover how emotional regulation tools help you move through difficult moments. 41:18 – Learn how small, steady changes rebuild energy and direction. 47:36 – Understand why real burnout recovery starts with alignment, not escape. About the Guest: Kassandra Hamilton is an alignment life coach, bestselling author in 3 categories, musician, healer, and facilitator. She is dedicated to helping others find inner alignment and live from the inside out, rather than in a burnout state or in autopilot mode. After completing a degree in biology and international development, and then completing a Masters of Science, she wanted to pursue a career in medicine. She has always wanted to be of service to others, and as a child she literally had dreams of holding her hands towards people and visualizing light being sent to them. only way it made sense in terms of a traditional career trajectory while she was in school was to pursue medicine. After completing her Masters degree, she decided to work alongside doctors to see what their day to day was like and how they were creating a positive impact in their communities. What she actually saw was a lot of burnout, paperwork, and dissatisfied lives of people that were once passionate about medicine. She was working for Doctors of BC in Vancouver, with a high end office and apartment, when she collapsed one day in her apartment from an overwhelming sense of anxiety, burnout and grief. She had lost her dog, her boyfriend, and both her grandparents all within three months. On top of that, she was in a career that looked good on paper, but wasn't actually fulfilling her purpose of being of service to others. She no longer wanted to pursue medicine and didn't know how she got to a dead end if she had followed all the “right” steps according to society's blueprint for success. She spent the next few years really learning about her inner world and what her purpose in life was. She became dedicated to her own healing and coping with anxiety and burnout. For the next decade, she began working with First Nations across Canada. She witnessed and learned about the importance of looking at the whole person, from a spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical lens. Everything seemed to be connected. As someone with a science background, she had always been fascinated with the intricacies and magical elements of everything that comes together in one singular cell. Our emotions are energy in motion, and if they don't move through, they get stuck. We decide if we allow our emotions to flow or not. Kassandra also realized how powerful our minds are. With one thought, we create a story. That story becomes our reality. With all of these realizations, she came to understand that we are literally magicians of our own realities. Kassandra has learned and experienced, time and time again, that health and happiness stems from our internal world first and is a combination of our mental, spiritual, physical, and emotional realms. Once we deal with our inner worlds and live in state of awareness over how we are operating in the world, we can project that version of ourselves out into the world to create positive change. In a world that constantly pulls us outward - with notifications, expectations, distractions “The Magic of Realigning From the Inside Out” is about bringing us back home to ourselves. Through deeply personal storytelling, scientific insights, and soul-centres practiced, Kassandra invites readers to reconnect with their inner compass. This is a guidebook for anyone longing to move from autopilot to alignment and discovering what it truly means to live with intention, purpose, and clarity. Because the answers aren't out there, they HAVE to start from within. We weren't meant to just get through the day. It is exhausting trying to fix and control everything “OUT THERE.” And the thing is, we have no control over what's happening out there anyways, We were meant to thrive and share our gifts with the world. This is how positive ripple effects are made. This is Kassandra plans to leave the world a better place, and support others to do the same. With the external chaos, political mess, climate change, and growing tensions worldwide, She decided it was time to start creating some positive changes. She now has started a coaching practice committed to sharing her work with others, and her book compliments her work, outlining a 4-phase approach to moving from anxiety, fear, burnout, to living in alignment and inner power. After a very successful book tour showcasing her bestseller (in 3 categories) “The Magic of Realigning From the Inside Out” – she is going on tour. But this isn't just any book tour – it is centred around creating community connections. She will be doing wellness workshops and talks in local libraries, bookstores, and wellness venues around burnout prevention, boundaries, resilience, and authentic leadership, leveraging my book as a tool for this. She is currently in the planning stages and open to support in making this happen. Kassandra is dedicated to sharing stories that inspire personal development and growth. She brings a unique perspective to storytelling, blending data-driven insights with narrative. With years of experience in health information management projects with First Nations communities in Canada, she has become fascinated with the power of sharing compelling stories through complex qualitative data. Her book is titled “The Magic of Realigning From the Inside Out” and is now available on Amazon and 50+ more platforms. Outside of writing, she loves traveling, dancing, hiking, paddleboarding, and putting on community events that promote inner healing and connection. She also provides sound healing sessions, Ayurvedic Head Massage, and Bio-Energy Healing sessions at a local wellness establishment in her community. She volunteers at Connective Society as a restorative justice mentor for youth who are struggling with a lack of leadership or role models in their life. Lastly, Kassandra is a singer/songwriter and a musician. You can find her playing at local open mics, hosting backyard community jam sessions, or at gigs around Vancouver Island. She put out an EP under the artist name “Kazz” in 2018 called “Reflections” and has released 4 singles under this title since. This year (2025), she started a new collaborative label with her partner who is a music producer, and they have released two songs under the artist name “Cyphyr & Myraky.” Her mission is this: So many people believe the answers are "out there" and feel helpless in the current state of the world environmentally, politically, economically etc. Instead of feeling helpless, paralyzed by fear, or living under the influence of external circumstance and chaos, we can create real change by first realigning from the inside out to reconnect with our inner power and creativity. Imagine a world where people took responsibility for their life, knew their purpose, and felt like they were living life in full alignment with this. Imagine what our communities would look like then? Above all else, Kassandra wants to inspire others to create positive ripple effects out into the world. Ways to connect with Kassandra**:** Instagram: @kassandra hamilton Facebook: Coaching with Kassandra TikTok: coachingwithkassandra LinkedIn: Kassandra Hamilton Website: www.kassandrahamilton.com Linktree with all my info: https://linktr.ee/kassandra.hamilton Spotify: Under name "Kazz": https://open.spotify.com/artist/0gpUecr9VkVJMmVIyp1NFt?si=byM7VdL9QDeezl5-666XKQ&utm_medium=share&utm_source=linktree&nd=1&dlsi=9a801d5edc774e1d Under name "Cyphyr & Myraky" - new collaborative label https://open.spotify.com/artist/3xUxZGxTseXQB2G9PVolMn?si=In3BLhX3SMK_c-3ukTlCfQ&utm_medium=share&utm_source=linktree&nd=1&dlsi=d369f571e6384062 Amazon Link to Book: https://a.co/d/2yWISSu Book Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDKW9ZNrsvA Rogers TV Community News Story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0eOnQ2DAdg Nanaimo News Bulletin Story: https://www.nanaimobulletin.com/local-news/nanaimo-health-and-life-coachs-new-book-guides-inner-alignment-8182386 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21 Well, hi everyone. I want to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset. We're really glad that you're here with us today. Our guest today is Kassandra Hamilton, from up in British Columbia, way, and she has, I think, a lot to talk about. She's a coach. She talks about burnout and but also about her many talents. She sings, she's a musician, and on top of everything else, she's an author, and she just wrote a book that has just come out. So we've got lots to talk about, or she has lots to talk about, and we'll talk about it with her. So, Kassandra, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Kassandra Hamilton 02:08 Thanks for having me, Michael. I'm really grateful to be here today. Michael Hingson 02:12 Well, I'm excited. There's obviously a lot to talk about, I think so. Tell us a little bit about the early Cassandra growing up, and all the usual things. You know, you got to start at the beginning somewhere, Kassandra Hamilton 02:22 absolutely, yeah, so as a kid, I mean, I've always been curious. My mom used to get very puzzled by me as a child, because I would always ask, like, who is God and how is the world made? And I just had all these questions. And it just never really stopped. When I was six, I had a vision of helping people and healing them with my hands, and I just saw this light between my hands and other people, and it was this recurring dream I kept having, and I didn't understand it in the practical sense. So I pursued a very traditional, you know, career in medicine, because that's what made sense to me, and the social conditions that we had in front of us, and that didn't really pan out for me. I just it wasn't resonating. I felt like the system was very rigid. And I just have always been fascinated with more of a holistic picture of someone you know, like their physical, emotional, spiritual selves, and so the just focusing on the physical alone just wasn't cutting it for me. I knew there was so much more, and I was so curious about all of that. So yeah, I've gone through different sort of journeys on my path, and come back to a place of really wanting to be of service and share some of the tools and strategies that I've learned along the way. Michael Hingson 03:47 Well, you started down the road of going into medicine, didn't you? Mm, hmm. And what was your master's in? Because I know you had your your master's degree, and then you started working with doctors. What did you get your master's degree in? Kassandra Hamilton 04:02 Yeah, so I completed a master's of science because it was in the stream of global health. And so I was really fascinated by the multifaceted aspect of that. And not just looking at physical impact in the world. We looked at, you know, political and economic, geographic indicators of health really gave me that sort of overall vision of what health looks like from from that bird's eye view. And then I wanted to pursue medicine after that, because, again, I wanted to be of service to others, but I ended up working with doctors to see if that's actually what I wanted to do, and I just saw the amount of burnout that doctors were experiencing and how 80% of their workload was paperwork. Michael Hingson 04:56 And so what did. You do. Kassandra Hamilton 05:02 So I left that work. I was there for two years, and it just I wasn't buying it. So I left. I started my own company as a consultant, and realized that a lot of the issues I was seeing abroad, I actually we had a lot of gaps here in Canada, especially with our indigenous communities, the disparities there were just huge, and so I focused my energy for the last decade on working with indigenous communities and unlearning a lot of sort of colonial ways of doing things and really integrating the holistic health model that is presented from from that culture that I was working with, and it's really, really been transformative and instrumental in the way that I approach health now, Michael Hingson 05:51 well, I'm curious about something sort of off the wall. I appreciate what you're saying about paperwork, and I'm sure there are all sorts of legalistic reasons why there has to be so much paperwork and so on in the medical world, especially when everybody's so concerned about things like malpractice and all that. But do you think any of that has gotten any better? Or how has it changed as we are progressing more to a paperless or different kind of charting system where everything is done from a computer terminal. I'm spoiled. My doctors are with Kaiser Permanente, and everything is all done on wireless, or at least on non paper chart. Types of things that they're just typing into the computer, actually, as as we're communicating and we're talking and I'm in visiting and so on, but everything is all done online. What do you think about that? Does that help any Kassandra Hamilton 06:53 so very great question. So when we're talking about accessibility, I'm going to say no, not for indigenous communities, at least here in Canada, I'll speak from my experience, but things have gone digital, and actually what I was doing was working as a digital health consultant to bridge health gaps in digital systems. Because what was happening and what still happens is there's systems that are quite siloed, and so a lot of health centers that are remote will be using paper still, or they'll be using system for that and another system for this. And so there's no wrap around, diligence around the client. And so there is this huge accessibility issue, which is what I've been working on for the last 10 years. Michael Hingson 07:41 Well, do you think that as well? Hopefully you'll see more paperless kinds of things go into play. But do you think in areas where the paper quantity has decreased, in the online or digital chart systems have come into play. Does that help burn out at all? Do you think again? Kassandra Hamilton 08:08 You know what? It really depends. Like you're you're only as good as your as your system allows, and so if you haven't allowed for inclusivity, and for example, a lot of the work that was funded in the first couple years that I was doing, there was no due diligence to figure out whether or not these remote areas even had internet. So without internet, they were pumping money into all of these systems that were super high tech, not culturally appropriate. A lot of elders don't even own a computer, let alone a smartphone or anything like that, or have service. So it was there was a huge disconnect there, and so part of the work I've been doing is a lot of advocacy and helping government agencies understand the connecting pieces that are are instrumental in the success of digital health implementation. Yeah, well, Michael Hingson 09:09 you know here, I know a fair amount about the whole digital chart system, because my sister in law was a critical care unit nurse at Kaiser, and then she managed several wards, and then she was tasked to be the head nurse for on the profit side, to help bring digital charts into Kaiser and and so I heard a lot about it from her and especially all the doctors who opposed it, just because they didn't want any change. They wanted to just do things the way that they had always done them. Yeah. And so the result is that they kind of got dragged kicking and screaming into it a little bit. But now I hear people mostly praising the whole system because it makes their job a lot easier. On the other hand, the other thing that happens, though, is they the system crams more patients into a doctor's appointment schedule every day, and so I'm not sure they're always seeing as much of patients as they should of any given patient, but I guess they have more doctors that specialize in different things. So no matter what happens, the doctors can all see whatever there is to see, because everything is in the chart, right? Kassandra Hamilton 10:41 And so Absolutely, in theory, and in urban areas where that works, you know, the digital systems are set up properly, absolutely. But in terms of going back to your question about burnout, if there's one nurse for one community, and she's a chart in five different, you know, systems that it's actually going to add to her burnout at the end of the day. Yeah? Michael Hingson 11:04 Well, yeah, and I appreciate that. I mean, so clearly, there's still quite a disparity, but it does, it does sound like in areas where they're able to truly bring digital charts and capturing information digitally into the system where, where that does exist, it can make people's lives, doctors, lives and so on, a little bit easier, and maybe contribute a little bit less to burnout. Kassandra Hamilton 11:34 Yeah, absolutely. And of course, that's the hope, and that's you know, why we continue to do the work to bring it into this, especially with AI too, like bringing more efficiency into the workplace, and it's all part of it. So yes, absolutely there's, there's definitely some, some hope, and some, you know, leaner, leaner ways of doing things for a lot of people. So yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson 12:01 I'll hope it will continue to get better, and that the influence will expand so that the more rural areas and so on will be able to get the kinds of things that the more urban areas have. Now I live in an area that's fairly urban, but we don't have a Kaiser hospital up here. We have clinics, but we don't have a hospital. And apparently there's now, finally some movement toward making that happen. But it's interesting, where we used to live, in Northern California. We lived in a very what was, although we weren't, but was a rich County, and there were 200,000 people or so in the county, and there was a Kaiser hospital in the county. There was a Kaiser hospital about 30 miles away in San Francisco, and there were Kaiser hospitals going north, 1520, miles further north, in Petaluma. So there are a lot of hospitals, but we are in an area where there are over 400,000 people now, and there isn't a Kaiser hospital here, and that just has always seemed kind of strange to me. And the response is, well, the doctors don't want to move up here. I mean, there are all sorts of different reasons that are given, but it just seems strange. So if you really need to go to the hospital, they do have contracts that sort of work sometimes, or you have to go about 50 miles to get to the nearest actual Kaiser hospital, right? So it's strange. Kassandra Hamilton 13:38 It is strange. And there's a lot of things. Who knows who made the last call on decision? Right? So, right, yeah. Michael Hingson 13:48 Well, again, so the rumor goes they're going to be building a hospital here, and I think that will be a good thing. So we'll see. We'll see how it goes. But you experienced burnout, Kassandra Hamilton 14:00 didn't you? I did? Yes, I tell us about that, if you would. Yeah, absolutely so when I was 27 and I went, that was Michael Hingson 14:13 last year, right? Kassandra Hamilton 14:14 Yes, thank you. It was 10 years ago, but on the outside, I was thriving. Michael, I was like, working for doctors of BC, I had an apartment on the ninth floor. I had an ocean view. I had the apartment downtown. I was, you know, dating. I was like, doing all these things. I was achieving, pushing and showing up. And inside I was running on empty, and I was very disconnected from my purpose, from myself, and that breakdown became eventually a breakthrough, but in the process, you know, I lost all my grandparents and my dog, and I didn't have tools for dealing with my anxiety. Yeah, and social media sort of just amplified that sort of comparative feeling, and I just started to slow down and like really realign, and I realized how many people were living on autopilot and surviving instead of thriving. And that's really when I wanted to become committed to helping others reclaim their purpose and their authenticity, and not just bounce back from burnout, but like rise into something greater, and like reconnect with themselves and their why of their purpose of being here. You know, Michael Hingson 15:33 yeah, because you you thought you were thriving, but you really weren't. Yeah, exactly which is, which is unfortunate, but still, those kinds of things happen. So what did you So, how did you go from experiencing burnout to moving forward and realigning? What? What did you learn? How did you discover it and what actually happened. Kassandra Hamilton 16:01 So I, you know, I, for a long time, went through my own inward journey. And I, you know, I went to counseling, I sought other ways of healing, through energy work, I tried all the different tools and modalities, and I realized over time, it meant flipping the script, and most of us live from the outside in, and we're chasing expectations and people pleasing, letting circumstances dictate our worth, and living from the inside out to me meant connecting with who I was and my values and and the truth of finding my like finding my purpose, and letting that be the driver, and that means having boundaries. It means speaking up when you're when you're scared or you have fear. I know you've done a lot of work with fear and how to leverage that for a more positive outcome, rather than letting it stop you. So in my life, that shift has really helped me stop outsourcing my power and allowed me to show up authentically in my work and my relationships and creativity, and that's where my freedom and vitality really lives, and I really want to share that with others. Michael Hingson 17:12 That's interesting. Way that you put it, you're outsourcing your power. What do you mean by that? Kassandra Hamilton 17:18 I was giving my power away. I was waiting for someone else to approve of something that I did. I was showcasing my, you know, achievements, and that was how I attached value to my identity and who I was. Michael Hingson 17:34 And of course, what that really meant is that you, as you said, it was all about people pleasing and so on. And how did you change all that? Kassandra Hamilton 17:43 It wasn't overnight, I'll bet it wasn't, yeah, and so I changed all that by getting curious and by going inside. And I have a four step process that I share in this book that I've now written. And the first step is to observe yourself, like, how are you showing up? What kind of patterns are coming up for you? And then starting to understand, like, why, where did those come from? And then starting to re tune that part of yourself, like, Okay, so that's how I'm showing up. How do I want to show up? And how can I change my patterns, and how I react to things, to do that, and that's how you start to, sort of like flip the narrative and limp from the inside out. Michael Hingson 18:26 How do people do that? Because we're, because we're, I think we're really trained to behave that way. We're we're trained to as, as you would put it, all too often, give your power away or outsource your power. And how do we change that mentality? Kassandra Hamilton 18:48 Yeah, well, we have to first observe ourselves. We have to look at, you know, how are boundaries being used in your life? Or are they even there? Are you showing up for yourself as much as you're showing up for other people? Are you being authentic in what really is, in alignment with your own values? Are you living on purpose? So these things are what we look at, and then I have tools and frameworks and questions to help people really start to observe themselves from an outside perspective and ask themselves, Is this really how I want to be living right now? Is this allowing me to live the life that I want? Michael Hingson 19:34 Yeah, and is it, is it helping me grow Exactly? And that's that's a lot of the issue that that we face. I know, in my my book live like a guide dog that wrote was published last year. We we talk a lot about the fact that people need to learn, or hopefully will learn, how to be much more introspective and. And analyze what they do every day, and really put that analysis to work, to to learn. What am I afraid of? What is going on? Why am I worried about this? Because I don't have any control over it and and people just don't grow up feeling that way, because we don't really teach people how to learn to control fear and how to be introspective, which is part of the problem, of course, right? Kassandra Hamilton 20:27 Or even how to manage our emotions, right? Like emotion is energy in motion, and if we do not allow it to move through us, it gets stuck, and it shows up in our bodies as a physical ailment, yeah. And that's the mind, body, spirit connection. That's why physical, mental, emotional health is so important to look at as as a whole, not just in silo. Michael Hingson 20:51 So how do you how do you teach people to take a different view than what we typically learned how to do well? Kassandra Hamilton 21:01 So once we've observed what people what people are, how they're operating, we then start to understand where it comes from. So a lot of people are programmed either by society or early childhood experiences, and then they are just operating on autopilot from those patterns. But they don't know that. So once you start like, awareness is everything, and once you see something, you can't unsee it. So at that point, it's like, okay, how can we move from this place to where you want to be? And so I have a lot of tools for understanding and processing your emotions in real time. I have tools for understanding and managing nervous like your nervous system, I look at it from a science and health background as well as a spiritual background. So it's like blending the tool to and understanding that healing isn't just physical and mindfulness and slowing down and journaling and just taking the time to actually try and understand yourself. Michael Hingson 22:03 So how has all of this changed how you live your life? Kassandra Hamilton 22:08 Well, I since I started operating in a different way, I bought a house. I bought another house, about another house, I, you know, wrote a book. I changed careers. I am coaching people now I'm just like really living in my element, in my my full purpose, which is have this written on my wall that I want to help others rediscover their magic, so we can all fly together. So it's really about spreading positive ripple effects in the world, you know, but starting at home and in our communities. And I believe that that inside out ripple effect is so much more powerful than anything we can do out there, Michael Hingson 22:56 just so that we get it out there. What's the title of the book? Kassandra Hamilton 22:59 It's called the magic of realigning from the inside out. Michael Hingson 23:04 Since we, we talked about it, I figured we better get the title out there. Yeah, thank you. And there is a picture of the book cover and so on in the show notes. But I just wanted to make sure that you, you did tell people the title. Well, tell me, is there an incident or a moment where you realize that your work could really create change in someone's life? Kassandra Hamilton 23:32 Yeah, you know, that's an interesting question. I've been asked that a few times, and the answer is that I just have a very strong morning practice where I journal. And throughout that journaling the last few years, I realized my process of integrating all of these tools and what it's done for me, and it just became like again, me observing myself through the pages and recognizing that I you know, it was my responsibility to share this, this work that I had done with other people, and not from a place of of ego, but really from that place of wanting to share stories and experiences in hopes that it will inspire others to, you know, take the time to Get curious and courageous about their own lives. Michael Hingson 24:22 Did you have any kind of an aha moment or a moment with anyone besides yourself that really caused you to realize, Oh, I'm really making a difference here. I'm really able to do this, and it makes a lot of sense to do what I'm doing. Kassandra Hamilton 24:38 Well, it's so funny, because informally, all of my friends will come to me for, you know, advice or coaching or reframing or whatever, and then eventually I was like, Man, I should get paid. And Michael Hingson 24:53 they're not your friends anymore, because now you're charging them, right? Kassandra Hamilton 24:58 So it's something that I've. Always really wanted to do, and I've always been fascinated by people and how their brains work, and what their resistance to change is, including my own. And yeah, I guess I just sort of had this moment a few years ago when I was like, I want to really focus my time on and energy to help other people have these moments of insight, or aha moments, or realizing they can pivot and actually start creating what they want in their lives. Michael Hingson 25:29 So what kind of tools do you use in your coaching process to help people do that? Kassandra Hamilton 25:34 Yeah, I lean on a lot of work from Gabor Mate and Deepak Chopra. I use tools that I've learned through Tara Brock. So my favorite tool, actually, that I, that I use, and I, I encourage people to try, is rain. And so if I could leave one sort of tool for people here today, it would be rain. And rain stands for recognize, acknowledge or accept, investigate, and then nourish. And so anytime people are in an activated emotional state or a negative emotion, they can sit away from their current situations, whether it's you go to the bathroom, or you sit alone for a few moments and you just recognize, okay, what is it that I'm feeling anxiety? Alright, we've named it. I recognize it. I'm accepting and acknowledging that I feel anxious. And then I is investigating, why do I feel anxious? What is the reason I feel anxious? And once you have figured out why, you can start to comfort yourself from a place of compassion, like it's okay to feel this way, you know Michael, like emotions are just children that want to be seen and heard, and the more you shove them down, the more chaos ensues. So when you comfort those emotions and you understand them, they move through you, naturally, emotion energy in motion. That's how we can assist ourselves in getting better at letting the emotions move through us. Michael Hingson 27:08 Yeah, and something that comes to mind along that that same line is the whole issue that you've already talked about, some which is talking about what what you feel, whoever you are, and be willing to express emotions, be willing to be honest with yourself and with other people. And again, I just think that we so often are taught not to do that. It's so unfortunate. Kassandra Hamilton 27:36 Absolutely, absolutely, we're not taught about anything. And I have a long list for the education curriculum, let me tell you, yeah, boundaries, you know, emotional regulation, emotional intelligence, yeah, reframing, Like there's just so many things, so many things. Michael Hingson 28:03 So you've, you've helped a lot of people, primarily, who do you do you coach? Who are your your typical clients? Or does it matter? Kassandra Hamilton 28:14 So I typically coach people between ages 25 to 40, but I actually recently had a senior reach out to me after she found an article in the paper, and so I'm not excluding people from who I work with, but generally speaking, that's sort of the age range is 25 to 45 people who maybe have reached a, you know, the career they thought they were always going to do and get there, and they're like, this, isn't it? This isn't it for me, I'm burnt out. I'm tired. It's not what I thought it was going to be. Or maybe they're in a relationship and they're stuck and feeling burnt out from that. So yeah, that's the age group that I work in. Because regardless of what issue you're working on, career, relationship, sense of self, these tools will help you pivot to really realign with your purpose. Michael Hingson 29:03 So how do you help people go from being stuck to realigning and empowered Kassandra Hamilton 29:10 through my four step process? So I don't want to give too much away, but people will just need to read the book to find out. Michael Hingson 29:19 Well, if you can describe maybe a little bit in general, just enough to Yeah. Kassandra Hamilton 29:24 So just like I was saying before, like first getting really clear on how people are operating, so that's the observed part, and then starting to understand themselves through the different patterns that are coming up on a weekly, daily basis. So it's a lot of investigating and getting data in the first couple weeks, and then after that, we start to understand how to rewire things through different tools that I introduce, and we do it in small, manageable steps. My coaching programs are either six weeks or two. 12 weeks long. And throughout that process, we try things, and everyone's different. So some tools stick, you know, more than others, and that's okay. I just have a the approach that I've moved them through, and by the end, people are having amazing experiences and feeling like it's life changing. And I have, you know, a lot of people reaching out with testimonials that I just, you know, really helped fuel me to continue this work. Michael Hingson 30:26 Have you done this at all with children? I Kassandra Hamilton 30:30 haven't, but it's so interesting that you asked that because I really love working with youth. I work in a restorative justice volunteer program here in my community, and it's all about providing mentorship and being a role model for for youth that have maybe lost their way. And that's definitely an area I'm curious about. It's funny that you mentioned that. Michael Hingson 30:55 Well, it just, you know, the the reality is that the earlier we can get people to think about this and change and go more toward the kind of processes that you promote, the better it would be. But I also realize that that's a it's a little bit different process with with youth, I'm sure, than it is with older, older people, adults and so on. But I was just curious if you had done any, or if you have any plans to maybe open any kind of programs more for youth to help them the same way, because clearly there are a lot of stuck youth out there. Kassandra Hamilton 31:37 Yeah, very much so. And to be honest, like with the amount of technology and information overload and state of the world, like the amount of overwhelm and anxiety among youth right now is just through the charts, yeah, yeah. So definitely something that's been on my mind, and I I'm very curious as to what sparked you to ask that, because it's definitely something I've been exploring so Michael Hingson 32:02 well, it just popped into my head that that's an interesting thing to think about. And I would also think that the earlier we can and in this case, you can, reach children, the more open they probably are to listening to suggestions if you can establish a rapport with them. The reality is that that at a younger age, they're not as locked in to ways of doing things as they might be later on, my wife was my late wife was a teacher for 10 years, then she loved teaching second and third graders, and she said even by the time you're getting to fourth graders, they're starting to be a little bit more rigid in their mindsets. And so the result was that it was harder sometimes to reach them. And I think that's true, and I and I know that everything I've ever read or heard younger the child, the more open they are, and the more they're able to learn. Like younger children are better able to learn more than one language and so on. And the earlier you can get to children, probably the better it would be all the way around. Kassandra Hamilton 33:19 Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, yeah, definitely, an avian Avenue. I've been curious and exploring myself. So, yeah, Michael Hingson 33:28 I wonder, I wonder what the techniques would be, because I'm sure that the techniques are going to be a little bit different than than what you face with older people, Kassandra Hamilton 33:37 not necessarily like I think at any age, it's good to learn about boundaries and why they're important and understanding what we think they are versus what they actually are. And same with, you know, seeking validation outside of ourselves. Like I don't think, I don't think it's quite I think it might be a little bit more stuck when we're older, but I don't think it's very different. Yeah, I guess it just depends. Just depends. Michael Hingson 34:07 Well, you talk a lot about boundaries, authenticity, authenticity and purpose. How does all that really go into your whole coaching program? Kassandra Hamilton 34:22 Sorry? In what sense, like, can you ask that it may be a different a different way? Michael Hingson 34:29 Well, um, you talk, you've you've mentioned boundaries a number of times, and authenticity and so on. So I'm just curious, how do they fit into what you do and what you want people to do okay? Kassandra Hamilton 34:41 So people will come to me and they're, you know, feeling burnt out. They're constantly on. They're juggling family relationships, digital overload. They don't have space to breathe, let alone, you know, connect with themselves. And underneath that, there's often a lot of people pleasing or fear. Not being enough or living by other people's expectations, and so so many of them are feeling exhausted, unfulfilled, lack of worth when they come to me and they're just like, I don't know what else to do. And often, a misconception about burnout is that you need to work harder for things to get better, or you just need a small break to reset, and then you're fine. But if we don't change anything in that, in the mind, in the mindset, then people are just going to go back to the way, the way they were. Michael Hingson 35:33 How would you really define burnout? Kassandra Hamilton 35:38 I would define burnout as people feeling helpless, feeling like they're living on autopilot, exhaustion, feeling like there's just so much to manage and they don't have the time or the energy again, feeling like they can't or don't know about boundaries, and yeah, they're unfulfilled. They're not feeling like themselves. And so what I would suggest for anyone who's feeling that way is one of the things you can do is just just pause, create a moment of space for yourself, even if it's just five minutes a day, ask yourself what you really need, and it sounds simple, but most of us are so disconnected or needs that we don't even ask the question. But that pauses our power. It can be the doorway to listening to yourself again, and from there, you can start making choices that really align with what you actually want? Michael Hingson 36:43 One of the things that I suggest, and we do it in live like a guide dog, and I suggest it to people whenever we get in these discussions, is, no matter what you say about not having time, you absolutely have time, especially worst case at the end of the day, when you're starting to fall asleep, take the time to analyze yourself, take the time to become more introspective, because you have that time because you're in bed for heaven's sake. So you're really not supposed to be doing anything else, or shouldn't, but it's a great time to start to think about yourself, and I think that's a great time to deal with all the things that you're talking about here as well. Kassandra Hamilton 37:20 Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah. And people have time for what they prioritize. That's that's the truth. And whether that's something people want to accept, it's absolutely the truth. You will make time for the things that are important to you. Michael Hingson 37:35 Yeah, well, and that's what it really comes down to does, isn't it that you're always going to make time for the things that you find are important to you, and the reality is that you'll be able to progress when you discover that some of the things that are important to you are the kinds of things that we're talking about here that will avoid burnout or get you away From that absolutely we just have to really neck us back to boundaries and authenticity and purpose. It just gets back to knowing what you really need, and ultimately, no one can know that better than you about yourself. Kassandra Hamilton 38:16 Absolutely, we have to reconnect to what matters and build the life that gives energy instead of only draining it. Michael Hingson 38:23 Yeah, and we can, we can do that, but we do need to take the time to make that happen, and that's why I really suggest do it at the end of the day. It's quiet and or you can make it quiet, and you can really learn by doing that you don't have to watch TV until an hour after you've fallen asleep, and then you wake up and discover the TV's on. You can take the time to become a little bit more introspective and learn more about yourself that way. And that's exactly what will happen if you really think about it Kassandra Hamilton 38:55 100% and you know, at my book launch, people were asking, like, how did you write a book, and it was like, it's not it's not hard in the sense that it's hard, it's hard because you have to show up every day. But that consistency, whether it's five minutes or an hour, like the consistency is everything. So showing up for yourself in small ways or whatever feels manageable at first, will naturally give you more energy to wake up early and give yourself more time. You know, it's just happens that way. Michael Hingson 39:25 Yeah, yeah. Well, I agree. What's your favorite tool that you use with clients? Kassandra Hamilton 39:31 So it would be the one I shared with you earlier rain. It has been very instrumental for people in transforming how long it takes them to go from from a place of fear or anxiety or resentment to just processing it and being neutral. And it's amazing. Michael Hingson 39:53 And again, just to reiterate, it rain stands for, Kassandra Hamilton 39:57 recognize, accept or acknowledge. Manage, investigate and nourish, Michael Hingson 40:05 that's cheating. You get both both spellings of rain in there. That's that works, but it makes perfect sense and and I'm assuming that you've felt you've had pretty good success with people. Have you had anyone that just resists, even though they come to you and they say, Oh, I'm burned out and all that, but you start to work with them and they just resist? Or do you find that you're able to usually break through? Kassandra Hamilton 40:35 So it's funny, because a lot of people that come to me are very resistant to it, because of the nature of burnout, where people feel like don't have the time or the energy right at the beginning, a lot of people are very resistant, and they say so in their testimonials. No, at first I felt resistant, but then I didn't know that these things were actually going to give me exactly what I what I needed. So I've worked with a couple nurses. I worked with a woman who was managing, like, working four jobs, and she was super burnt out. But eventually, probably by like two or three weeks in, people are starting to feel the differences, and they're, they're all in. So yeah, it does take a bit to get them there, but once they're there, they're they're flying so, Michael Hingson 41:22 yeah, oh, that's that is so really cool, because you're able to break through and get people to do exactly what we've been talking about, which is so important to do, Kassandra Hamilton 41:34 yeah, yeah. And you know the moments for me that just feel like, Oh, this is the work I meant to do, is seeing someone go from that place of burnout or defeat because they're working a job they don't enjoy to starting their own business that's leveraging their creativity and their passion, or they've repaired a relationship, or they're finally feeling confident in themselves like there's No better gift to me than to see that change in somebody. Michael Hingson 42:06 What are some of the most common struggles that you see in people? I know we've probably talked a lot about it, but you know, it's good to summarize. But what are some of the kind of the most common struggles that you find in people? And why do you think that people are experiencing so much burnout? And I'm assuming that those two are related, Kassandra Hamilton 42:27 yeah, yeah. So, okay, so if we were talking about career, people that are managing a career that is very demanding, and that is all they do, and they have no energy for time like for things outside of work. What they say is that they're feeling numb, or they're living on autopilot, or they don't recognize themselves anymore. Another shared that she was really scared of leaving because of a financial aspect. And so I think at that point, you just start to flip the narrative and ask, well, what are you sacrificing by staying right? So like, maybe we need to get a part time job while we're exploring our creativity and building a new business for ourselves, but it's 100% possible, and these programs are not meant to make these drastic changes overnight. They're small, incremental, consistent changes that over time bring you to a place of alignment with what you actually want to create in life. Do you Michael Hingson 43:34 find that there are some people who feel I can't stay here, I've got to leave or this boss isn't good, or whatever, when, in reality, it's it's something different, and that a mindset shift makes them discover that they really are in a good well, they're in a good position, or they have a good career, or whatever, but their perspective has just been off. Kassandra Hamilton 43:56 Yeah, absolutely. So someone said something to me the other day that it stuck with me at the time, but it was something like, If you can't, if you can't get out of it, you better get into it. Yeah, that's a good point. It's like, yeah, sometimes it's just with how you're showing up for yourself and for the people around you. And that's the shift that needs to happen. So it's not necessarily about leaving a job. Thank you for bringing that up. It is about changing your life from the inside, and a huge part of that is mindset and the energy that you're bringing to a situation. Because how you do one thing is how you do everything. So, yeah, Michael Hingson 44:41 it's it's like, well, one of the things that I constantly tell people is there are a lot of times that something occurs to you or that you're involved with you have no control over, because you're not the one that that did it, or you're not the one that directly made this happen. And but you always have the choice of how you deal with whatever happens. So even if you don't have any direct influence over something occurring, you have always the opportunity to determine how you're going to deal with it. And that's always something that I think is so important for people to analyze and think about. But I think all too many people don't Kassandra Hamilton 45:21 absolutely the power is in our pause. And that's something I tell people all the time, the power is in your pause. Slow down, take a second, don't respond right away. And then come from a place of power, and you know that it changes everything. Michael Hingson 45:38 Well, the reality is that the more of that that you do, the more you pause, the more you think about it. The fact is, the quicker, over time, you'll be able to make a decision, because you're teaching yourself how to do that Kassandra Hamilton 45:54 truly. Yep. Michael Hingson 45:56 And so for a while, you may not be able to or you you are not confident enough to be able to make a decision right away, which is fine, you should pause. But the fact of the matter is, I think what I really describe it as, and I think it's so true, is you need to learn to listen to your inner voice, because your inner voice is going to tell you what you need to do. And you just need to really learn to focus on that, but we don't. We always say, Oh, that's too easy. That can't be the right answer when it really is. Kassandra Hamilton 46:26 It really is. And so again, that pause is also about space, right? So when I feel triggered by something, I will take the space to let myself come back down from that and then ask myself what I really want, or again, coming back to boundaries, if someone asks me if I want to do something, and I'm a very social person, and I love connection, so right away, I want to say yes, I'll, you know, do that thing with you. Now I have a really beautiful way to still show that it's like something I want to partake in, but honor myself as well. By saying I love this idea, I need a little bit of time to figure out if I can fully commit to this, and I'll get back to you at this time so it shows integrity, not only to myself, but to to that person as well, and showing up in a way that it like, if I have capacity to do that, then I will, yeah. Michael Hingson 47:25 Well, if somebody listening to this kind of feels unfulfilled or stuck exhausted, what's the very first step that you would suggest that they take? Kassandra Hamilton 47:37 Just like I was saying, just take a pause. Michael Hingson 47:40 I knew you were going to Kassandra Hamilton 47:41 say that create a moment of space. Ask yourself, what's really going on and what you really want, and then ask yourself if your actions are all the choices that you're about to make align with that, yeah. Michael Hingson 47:56 And the reason I asked the question was, was really just to get you to reiterate that and to get people to hear it again, because we have to really come together in our own minds and decide what we want to do, and we shouldn't have knee jerk reactions. There's no need to do that, if we think about it and really take the time to ponder what makes the most sense to do. Can we'll get the right answers if we work at it Kassandra Hamilton 48:22 100% you just have to put in a little bit of curiosity and time to figure it out. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Michael Hingson 48:33 What do you think is one of the greatest misunderstandings about burnout and what is the truth that you really wish more people knew? Kassandra Hamilton 48:46 People think burnout is just about being tired or needing a vacation, but it's so much deeper than that. And you know, it's a sign that we've been living out of alignment with ourselves, and that rest alone isn't going to fix it real, real recovery is is coming from changing the way that we live and setting boundaries and reconnecting with what matters and building a life that gives energy instead of strain. Michael Hingson 49:16 Yeah, again, it gets back to that authenticity thing. Kassandra Hamilton 49:19 Yep, that thing, yeah. Michael Hingson 49:26 What are some of the biggest transformations that you've seen from your clients that you're really pleased about? Kassandra Hamilton 49:33 I've seen clients go from anxious and depleted to, like I said, starting businesses that they love. And that wasn't even something that we worked on together, it was like just a few tweaks, you know, simple but not easy, shifts that they made. And then I get emails or comments about how they're starting businesses that they love, and they're full time booked in that so like that. That's been a big transformation. Question for a few of my clients. One woman was trying to find a relationship, and she had tried everything, and from all different angles, and it wasn't working, and truthfully, she needed to come back to herself and align with herself, and when she did that, you know, nine months later, she found the love of her life, and one client said she stopped feeling numb for the first time in years. Another shared that she actually laughed and felt joy again. And these transformations are powerful because they're not just surface change or changes. They're they're life changing shifts in how people see themselves and what they what they feel like they can create in the world. Michael Hingson 50:46 And ultimately, isn't most of this transformation or shift really a change in one's mindset. Kassandra Hamilton 50:54 Yes, it is mindset, and it is also taking the time, taking the time, having the courage and having awareness of how we are operating in our daily lives, and why, yeah, and then shifting that. Michael Hingson 51:12 Well, tell us all about the book. When did it launch, and what's happened, and what do you see coming down the line for it and so on? Yes, I know you have a lot to talk about, so tell us. Kassandra Hamilton 51:27 So the magic of realigning from the inside out is very much in line with what I coach about, which is about bringing us back home to ourselves. And I share a lot of personal storytelling and scientific connections and soulful practices that I've tried that have worked really well for me, and I really invite readers to reconnect with with themselves. So it's sort of like a guidebook like the first the first half of the book is a lot of stories, the second half is more tools and strategies. And overall, it's the idea that, you know, the answers aren't out there. They have to start within. And we weren't meant to just get through the day. It's exhausting to try to fix and control everything out there. The thing is, we have no control over what's happening out there anyways, and so we have our one wild and precious life, and it's like, what are we going to do with that, especially in a world that's constantly pulling us outward with notifications and expectations and distractions? Yeah, I really believe this is how we show up to make a positive difference in the world by working on ourselves and spreading that upward. Michael Hingson 52:40 So when did the book launch? Kassandra Hamilton 52:43 August 21 was my book launch here on Vancouver Island, and I'm actually organizing a little book tour. Yeah, across the province here. So yeah, that's stay tuned. It'll be next month. I think so. Michael Hingson 53:01 Have you had any kind of book tours, or what kind of publicity Have you had so far for the book? Kassandra Hamilton 53:06 So I was working with a publicist, which was very new to me, and I was able to connect with some press. So a couple newspapers came to my book launch. There was, I think it was like 50 people that showed up, and the mayor came to give a speech, and he wants to meet with me for lunch next week and talk more about what I could do with the book, which is great, because I really think I can use it as a tool for helping in my own community and maybe even offering organizations some opportunities to explore strategies to get their their employees out of burnout. Yeah? So that's kind of what's happened so far, and a lot of bookstores have taken it up. So I've got all the local bookstores here. Have it. It's not available on Amazon, yeah, and it's actually a bestseller. I reached bestseller status in three categories. What categories, personal development, personal growth, and I think anxiety was the third one I have to look back at it. Michael Hingson 54:14 Well, definitely congratulations are in order for doing that. Though. Thank you. Thank you. So that's that is definitely kind of cool to to have that kind of situation and that kind of status happening with the book. It makes it very exciting and certainly gratifying in so many ways. When did you start coaching? Did you when did you actually start your company? Kassandra Hamilton 54:37 So I started coaching. Let's see two, two, no, a year and a half ago. So honestly, formally, not that long, but it's already just something I'm so passionate about and getting more and more positive feedback on. So yeah, I guess in the grand scheme of things, I'm just getting started. Michael Hingson 54:59 Well, that's fair. That's fine. Yeah, we, we think you're going to go far at least. I think you're going to go quite a, quite a distance with all of this. Do you just coach people directly, one on one? Do you do virtual coaching? Do you coach outside of British Columbia and all that? Kassandra Hamilton 55:18 Yeah, you know, I mostly work virtually, because then I can be accessible to more people. So that's how I actually prefer to work, is virtually, but I'm open to, you know, meeting people where they're at and however they want to communicate. So I've been doing phone calls with with one person and then zoom with another, and if people do want to do in person, I'm open to it. It's just a little bit more restrictive in terms of reach. But I'm also going to be doing some wellness workshops and talks around these tools and strategies I've learned, and using my book as a tool as I go through the province next month. So it's not just going to be about the book. It's going to be presenting and giving workshops and talks around this work, and then presenting my book as a tool to use in in helping people get back to a place of alignment and energy again. Michael Hingson 56:20 Well, on your on your website, we haven't talked about that yet, but on your website, do you have any videos of talks or anything like that that you've done? Kassandra Hamilton 56:31 Not of any talks. I think my first one, to be honest with you, is, was at the book launch, but it went so well that I'm just sort of, I'm I'm adding fuel to that fire, you know, and I'm just gonna keep going, yeah. So I haven't done any talks beyond that one yet, but I have some testimonials and things on my website. So those are the videos that are there. Michael Hingson 56:55 Well, for people who are listening to this today, who feel like they want to do. So, how can they reach out to you and connect with you, and what? What happens? Kassandra Hamilton 57:05 Yeah, so the best way is to reach out to me through my website or my I have a link tree link that I think I might have sent you, Michael, but it has all my different links for working on with coaching or reaching out in different ways and contact information. So link tree, Instagram are my main ones, but also obviously email and my website. So what is your website? It's www, dot Kassandra with a K Hamilton, which is my last name.com, Michael Hingson 57:40 so that's easy. Www, dot Kassandra Hamilton com, Kassandra Hamilton 57:44 yeah, and on Instagram, it's at Kassandra with a K underscore Hamilton, so Michael Hingson 57:50 Okay, yeah, have you? Have you done much with LinkedIn? Kassandra Hamilton 57:55 I have, yeah, I also have LinkedIn, yep. And I have Tiktok, and I have Facebook, Michael Hingson 58:00 all the things, all the different suspects, all the usual suspects, yes, yeah. Well, that is, you know, that is really pretty cool. I hope that people will reach out, because you've off, you've clearly offered a lot of very useful and relevant information. And I think that it's extremely important that people take it to heart, and I hope that maybe we're going to be able to have contributed to your getting some more people in the business too. Kassandra Hamilton 58:30 I really appreciate that, Michael and I know you've done so much work with people as well, and inspired others, you know, astronomically. So I really appreciate and feel grateful for the time that you've given me today. Michael Hingson 58:46 Well, this has been a lot of fun, and we'll have to do it again. You'll have to come on and some point in the future and let us know how things are going and how the book is doing, and how everything else is happening. But I, but I really do value the fact that you've spent so much time with us today. Kassandra Hamilton 59:03 Thank you so much. At least we're in the Michael Hingson 59:06 same time zone. That helps. Yes, that's true. Well, Kassandra, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you out there for listening to us and being with us and watching us, whichever you do. I'd love to hear from you as well. I'd like to get your thoughts and your opinions. Please reach out to me. At Michael H i, that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, I'd like to get your thoughts. Like to know what you thought of today's episode, wherever you are experiencing the podcast, please give us a five star review. We value your reviews highly, and we would really appreciate you giving us reviews of this episode and the podcast in general, and for anyone out there, including you, Kassandra, who might know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable. Mindset and tell their own story. Please reach out. Let

Episode 386 – Unstoppable Performer and Educator with Ronald Cocking

Interviews - Deutschlandfunk

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 7, 2025 67:13

In this impactful and inspiring episode of Unstoppable Mindset, host Michael Hingson sits down with Ronald Cocking—performer, educator, and co-founder of the Looking Glass Studio of Performing Arts—to reflect on a remarkable life shaped by rhythm, resilience, and love. Ron's journey into the performing arts began at just five years old, when his passion for tap dance ignited a lifelong commitment to dance and musical theater. From his first professional role at age 15 in My Fair Lady to founding one of Southern California's most impactful arts schools, Ron's story is one of dedication, creativity, and community. But perhaps the most moving part of Ron's story is his 49-year partnership—both personal and professional—with the late Gloria McMillan, best known as Harriet Conklin from Our Miss Brooks. Together, they created a legacy of mentorship through the Looking Glass Studio, where they taught thousands of students across generations—not just how to act, sing, or dance, but how to live with confidence and integrity. Ron also reflects on the legacy Gloria left behind, his continued involvement in the arts, and the words of wisdom that guide his life: “Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.” “To find happiness, take the gifts God has given you and give them away.” This is more than a story of a career in the arts—it's a touching tribute to passion, partnership, and purpose that will leave you inspired. Highlights: 00:48 – Hear how early radio at home shaped a lifetime love for performance. 03:00 – Discover why drumming and tap both trained his ear for rhythm. 06:12 – Learn how a tough studio change led to ballet, jazz, and tumbling basics. 08:21 – See the “sing with your feet” method that makes tap click for students. 10:44 – Find out how a teen chorus role in My Fair Lady opened pro doors. 13:19 – Explore the drum-and-tap crossover he performed with Leslie Uggams. 15:39 – Learn how meeting Gloria led to a studio launched for $800. 18:58 – Get the long view on running a school for 44 years with family involved. 23:46 – Understand how Our Miss Brooks moved from radio to TV with its cast intact. 32:36 – See how 42nd Street proves the chorus can be the star. 41:51 – Hear why impact matters more than fame when students build careers. 43:16 – Learn what it takes to blend art and business without losing heart. 45:47 – Compare notes on marriage, teamwork, and communication that lasts. 48:20 – Enjoy a rare soft-shoe moment Ron and Gloria performed together. 56:38 – Take away the “teach to fish” approach that builds lifelong confidence. About the Guest: My father was a trumpet player, thus I heard music at home often in the early 50's and was always impressed and entertained by the rhythms and beats of Big Band music… especially the drummers. Each time I would see Tap dancers on TV, I was glued to the screen. It fascinated me the way Tap dancers could create such music with their feet! In 1954, at age 5, after begging my Mom and Dad to enroll me in a Tap class, my Dad walked in from work and said “Well, you're all signed up, and your first Tap class is next Tuesday. I was thrilled and continued studying tap and many other dance forms and performing and teaching dance for all of my life. In my mid teens, I became serious about dancing as a possible career. After seeing my first musical, “The Pajama Game” starring Ruth Lee, I new I wanted to do musical theatre. I got my first professional opportunity at age 15 in “My Fair Lady” for the San Bernardino Civic Light Opera Association and loved every minute of it… and would continue performing for this organization well into my 30's I met Gloria McMillan in the late 60's while choreographing a summer musical for children. Gloria's daughter was doing the role of Dorothy in “The Wizard of Oz”. Then, about 3 or 4 years later I would meet Gloria again and the sparks flew. And, yes, she was Gloria McMillan of “Our Miss Brooks” fame on both radio and television. Wow, was I blessed to have crossed paths with her. We shared our lives together for 49 years. On November 4, 1974, Gloria and I opened a performing arts school together named “The Looking Glass Studio of Performing Arts”. We would teach and manage the school together for 44 years until we retired on June 30, 2018. We moved to Huntington Beach, California and spent 3 beautiful years together until she left to meet our Lord in heaven on January 19, 2022. Ways to connect with Ron: Lgsparon@aol.com About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi there, wherever you are and wherever you happen to be today. Welcome to unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Mike hingson, and today we get to chat with Ron Cocking, who is Ron. Well, we're going to find out over the next hour. And Ron was married for many years to another person who is very famous, and we'll get to that, probably not as well known to what I would probably describe as the younger generation, but you're going to get to learn a lot about Ron and his late wife before we're done, and I am sure we're going to have a lot of fun doing it. So let's get to it. Ron, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Ron Cocking ** 01:59 Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. Michael, this. I've been looking forward to this. Michael Hingson ** 02:04 I have been as well, and we're going to have a lot of fun doing it. Ron Cocking ** 02:08 Do you one note on that last name? It is cocking. Cocking, he comes right? Comes from a little townlet in the coal mining country of England called Cockington. Michael Hingson ** 02:20 I don't know why I keep saying that, but yeah, cocky, no 02:23 problem. Michael Hingson ** 02:24 Well, do you go up to the reps recreations at all? Ron Cocking ** 02:28 Oh my gosh, Gloria. And I know you and Gloria, did do you still do it? I've it's on my schedule for September. Michael Hingson ** 02:35 I'm gonna miss it this year. I've got a speech to give. So I was going to be playing Richard diamond at recreation. Well, I'll have to be Dick Powell another time, but I thought that you you were still doing 02:50 it. I'm planning on it cool. Michael Hingson ** 02:53 Well, tell us about the early Ron cocking and kind of growing up in some of that stuff. Let's start with that. Ron Cocking ** 02:59 Well, the early part of my story was when I was born just a little before television came in, before everyone had a TV in their home. How old are you now? If I maybe, you know, I am now 76 Michael Hingson ** 03:12 Okay, that's what I thought. Yeah, you're one year ahead of me. I'm 75 Ron Cocking ** 03:16 I was born in 49 and so my earliest remembrances my mom and dad and my brother and I lived with our grandfather, and we had no television, but we had this big it must have been about three to four foot tall, this big box on the floor in a very prominent spot in the living room. And that was the Sunday afternoon entertainment. I remember my family sitting around, and I listened and I laughed when they did, but I had no idea what was going on, but that was the family gathering. And just, I know we'll talk about it later, but I I just have this notion that at that time I was laughing, not knowing what I was laughing at, but I bet I was laughing at my future Michael Hingson ** 04:02 wife, yes, yes, but other things as well. I mean, you probably laughed at Jack Benny and Amos and Andy and Ron Cocking ** 04:09 yeah, I remember listening to all those folks, and it was just amazing. Then when television came about and my father was a trumpet player, and I loved his trumpet playing, and he practiced often at home. He would sit in his easy chair and play some tunes and scales and that sort of thing. But what captured my ear and my eyes when I went to on rare occasions when I could go to his engagements, it was always the drummer that just stuck out to me. I was mesmerized by the rhythms that they could produce. And when TV came about, I remember the old variety shows, and they often would have tap dancers like. Had a stair gene, Kelly, Peg Leg Bates and the Nicholas brothers, and I just, I was just taken back by the rhythms. It sounded like music to me. The rhythms just made me want to do it. And so I started putting that bug in my parents ears. And I waited and waited. I wanted to take tap dance lessons. And one day, my dad walks in the back door, and I said, Dad, have you signed me up yet? And he said, Yep, you start next Tuesday at 330 in the afternoon. So I was overjoyed, and I went in for my first lesson. And mind you, this was a private tap class. Total Cost of $1.25 and we had a pianist for music, no record player, live piano, wow. And so I, I rapidly fell in love with tap dance. Michael Hingson ** 05:56 And so you did that when you weren't in school. Presumably, you did go to school. Ron Cocking ** 06:00 Oh, yeah, I did go to school. Yeah, I did well in school, and I enjoyed school. I did all the athletics. I played little league, and eventually would be a tennis player and water polo and all that stuff. But all through the years, after school was on the way to the dance classes. Michael Hingson ** 06:16 So you graduated, or I suppose I don't want to insult drumming, but you graduated from drumming to tap dancing, huh? Ron Cocking ** 06:24 Well, I kept doing them both together. I would dance, and then when my dad would practice, I would beg him to just play a tune like the St Louis Blues, yeah, and so that I could keep time, so I pulled a little stool up in front of an easy chair, and one of the arms of the chair was the ride cymbal, and the other one was the crash cymbal, and the seat of the chair was my snare drum. I would play along with him. And eventually he got tired of that and bought a Hi Fi for my brother and I, and in the bedroom I had a Hi Fi, and I started to put together a set of drums, and I spent hours next to that, Hi Fi, banging on the drums, and I remember it made me feel good. One day, my mom finally said to me, you know, you're starting to sound pretty good, and that that was a landmark for me. I thought, wow, somebody is enjoying my drumming, Michael Hingson ** 07:18 but you couldn't do drumming and tap dancing at the same time. That would have been a little bit of a challenge. A challenge. Ron Cocking ** 07:23 No, I would practice that the drums in the afternoon and then head for the dance studio later. And in this case, I was a local boy. I grew up in Riverside California, and my first tap teacher was literally maybe two miles from our house. But that didn't last long. She got married and became pregnant and closed her studio, and then I she recommended that I go see this teacher in San Bernardino by the name of Vera Lynn. And which I did, I remember walking into this gigantic classroom with a bunch of really tall kids, and I was maybe seven or eight years old, and I guess it was kind of an audition class, but after that evening, I she put me in the most appropriate classes, one of which was ballet, which I wasn't too excited about, but they all told me, If you're going to be a serious dancer, even a tap dancer, you need to get the basic body placement from ballet classes. And I said, Well, I am not going to put any tights and a T shirt on. But they finally got me to do that because they told me that the Rams football team took ballet class twice a week at that time. Ah. Said, no kidding. So they got me, they they got you. They got me into ballet class, and then it was jazz, and then it was tumbling, and so I did it all. Michael Hingson ** 08:43 I remember when we moved to California when I was five, and probably when I was about eight or nine, my brother and I were enrolled by my mother. I guess my parents enrolled us in a dance class. So I took dance class for a few years. I learned something about dancing. I did have a pair of tap shoes, although I didn't do a lot of it, but I, but I did dance and never, never really pursued it enough to become a Gene Kelly or Fred Astaire. Well, few of us do. I didn't dislike it. It just didn't happen. But that was okay, but it was fun to, you know, to do it and to learn something about that. And so I even today, I I remember it, and I appreciate it. So that's pretty cool. Ron Cocking ** 09:32 Well, you would understand what I always told my students, that tap dancing is like singing a song with your feet. Yeah. And I would sing, I would say, you all know, happy birthday, right? So I would sing it, and they would sing it along, and then I'd said, then I would sing it again, and I would sing it totally out of rhythm. And they would wrinkle their nose and look at me and say, okay, so what are you doing? And I'd say, Well, you don't recognize it because the rhythm is not correct. So then I would. Would tap dance Happy birthday, and I'd say, you sing along in your mind and I'm going to tap dance it. And that would always ring a bell in their mind, like, Oh, I get it. The rhythm has to be right on the button, or the people aren't going to recognize Michael Hingson ** 10:16 that was very clever to do. Ron Cocking ** 10:18 Yeah, thank you. And they got it, yeah, they got it, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 10:22 which is even, even more important. That's pretty clever. Well, so you did that, and did you do it all the way through high school, Ron Cocking ** 10:30 all the way through high school? And I think when I was 15, I was, I think I was in the eighth grade, maybe ninth, but I was 15 and got my first chance to I was cast in a professional show for San Bernardino civic light opera Association. And the show was My Fair Lady, and it was my English and journalism teacher at the junior high who had been cast. He was a performer also, but something came up and he couldn't follow through, so he had given the association my name, and I was out in the backyard. My mom came out. Said, Hey, San Bernardino clo just called and they want, they want to see it tonight at seven o'clock. So I put on my dance clothes and went over, and the director, by the name of Gosh, Gene Bayless, came out, and he showed me a couple of steps. And he said, Yeah, let's do it together. And he said, Boy, you unscramble your feet pretty well there kid. And he he looked over into the costumers and said, measure this guy. Let's put him in the show. So I was beside myself. And long story short, I Gosh, I'm over the over the years, I my first show was at age 15 with them, and I participated, did shows with them, until I think my last show, I was about 38 years old, and that last show was anything goes with Leslie uggums, wow. Michael Hingson ** 11:52 So what part did you play on my fair lady? Ron Cocking ** 11:55 I was just a chorus kid. I remember in the opening when Eliza sings, that wouldn't it be lovely? Wouldn't it be lovely? I was a street sweeper. I remember I had a broom, and there were three of us, and we were sweeping up that street and working in and around. Eliza Doolittle, of Michael Hingson ** 12:11 course, being really spiteful. You just said a little while ago, you were beside yourself. And the thing that I got to say to that, quoting the Muppets, is, how do the two of you stand each other? But anyway, that's okay, good in the original Muppet Movie, that line is in there. And I it just came out so fast, but I heard it. I was going, Oh my gosh. I couldn't believe they did that. But anyway, it was so cute, very funny. That's great. So and then you were, you eventually were opposite Leslie UB, Ron Cocking ** 12:39 yes, that was one of the high points talking about dancing and drumming at the same time. In fact, I used to give a drum a basic drum summer camp where I would teach tappers the basics of music notation, quarter notes, eighth notes, 16th notes. And then we would put a tap orchestra together. Everybody had their own music stand and their own drum pad. I would conduct, and we would play little pieces, and they would they would drum a rhythm, tap, a rhythm, drum, a rhythm, tap, a rhythm. And so anyway, it came full circle. One of the highlights of my dance slash drumming career was this show I did with Leslie uggums, the director had done this prior, and he knew it would work, and so so did the conductor in the entre Act. The top of the second act, the pit orchestra starts and plays like eight measures. And then there were six of us on stage, behind the main curtain, and we would play the next 16 bars, and then we would toss it back to the pit, and then toss it back to us, and the curtain would begin to rise, and we were right into the first song that Leslie uggums sang to get into the second act. Then she wanted to add a couple of songs that she liked, and she was very popular in with the audiences in San Bernardino, so she added a couple of songs, and I got to play those songs with her and and that was just so thrilling. And I with the scene finished, I had to have my tap shoes on, on the drum set. I had to hop down from the riser, and came out, brought one of my Toms with me, and played along with another featured tap dancer that kind of took over the scene at that point. So it was, it was really cool. Michael Hingson ** 14:31 So with all this drumming, did you ever meet anyone like buddy rip? Ron Cocking ** 14:35 No, I never met any famous drummers except a man by the name of Jack Sperling, which was one of my drumming idols, Michael Hingson ** 14:44 Donnie Carson was quite the drummer, as I recall, Ron Cocking ** 14:48 yeah, he did play yeah and boy, his his drummer, Ed Shaughnessy on his on The Tonight Show was phenomenal. Yeah, he's another of my favorites, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 14:57 well, and I remember. I guess Johnny Carson and Buddy Rich played together, which was kind of fun. They Ron Cocking ** 15:07 played together, and so did Ed Shaughnessy and Buddy Rich did a little competition on the show one time I realized, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 15:15 right, yeah. Well, and it's interesting to see some of the performers do that. I remember once trying to remember whether what show it was on, maybe it was also a Tonight Show where Steve Martin substituted for Johnny, but he and the steel Canyon, the Steve Canyon band, came out. Of course, he was great on the band, and then flat and Scruggs or flat came out. Or which one? Yeah, which one did the banjo flat, I think, but they, but they banjo together, which was fun? Ron Cocking ** 15:51 Oh, wow, yeah, yeah. Steve Martin is a tremendous band. He is, Whoa, yeah. I, Michael Hingson ** 15:56 I have a hard time imagining fingers moving that fast, but that's okay, me too. I saved my fingers for Braille, so it's okay. So where did you go to college? Ron Cocking ** 16:07 I went to for two years to Riverside City College, Riverside Community College, and then I went for two years to San Bernardino Cal State, San Bernardino, and I was majoring in English because I thought I may want to do some writing. But in the meantime, I became married, I became a father, and so I was trying to work and study and maintain a family life, and I just couldn't do it all. So I didn't quite finish a major at Cal State San Bernardino. I continued actually a nightclub drumming career. And now, now we're getting up to where this our performing arts studio began between Gloria and I. Michael Hingson ** 16:50 So was it? GLORIA? You married first? Ron Cocking ** 16:53 No, okay, no, Gloria was married. Gloria was a prior, prior marriage for 20 some years, or 20 years, I guess. And I had been married only two years, I think. And when we first, well, we actually met while we were both. I'll tell you the story in a minute, if you want to hear it. Sure, the first time I ever met Gloria Macmillan, I had no idea who she was, because she her name was Gloria Allen at the time that was, that was her married name that she took after the arm is Brooks TV show. Well, she took that the new name before the TV show even ended. But I was choreographing a children's summer musical, and the director came up said, hey, I want you to meet this young lady's mom. So the young lady was Gloria's daughter, her oldest daughter, Janet. And I said, Sure. So he said, This is Gloria. Allen, Gloria, this is Ron. And we shook hands, and I said, Nice to meet you. And that was it. And so the show happened. It ran for a couple of weeks, and Gloria was a wonderful stage mom. She she never bothered anyone. She watched the show. She was very supportive of her daughter. Didn't, didn't stage manage Michael Hingson ** 18:09 whatsoever, which wasn't a helicopter mom, which is good, Ron Cocking ** 18:12 definitely that, which was just really cool. So and so I was maybe three, four years later, so Gloria obviously knew that I could dance, because she had seen me choreographed. So I got a phone call from Gloria Allen, and I said, Okay, I remember her. She wanted to meet because she was thinking about starting an acting school and wanted someone to teach actors some dance movement. So I went over for a interview and took my little at that time, about two and a half year old, daughter, three year old, and we chatted, and oh my gosh, I just this, this beautiful woman swept me off my feet. And of course, I by the end of the conversation, I said, Gosh, you know, we talked about how we would integrate the acting and the dance, and I said, Can I have your phone number? Nope, I got the old well, we'll call you. Don't call us. And so I had to wait for a few days before I got a call back, but I got a call back, and I don't remember a lot of details, but the sparks flew really, really quickly, and we started planning our school. And if you can believe that this was 1973 when we started planning, maybe it was early 74 and we invested a whole total of $800 to get ourselves into business. We bought a record player, some mirrors, some paint, and a business license and a little shingle to hang out front. We had a little one room studio, and we. Opened on November 4, 1974 and we would close the studio on June 30, 2018 Wow. Michael Hingson ** 20:08 Yeah. So you, you had it going for quite a while, almost, well, actually, more than 40 years. 44 years. 44 years, yes. And you got married along the way. Ron Cocking ** 20:20 Well along the way, my my wife always said she fell in love with my daughter, and then she had to take me along with her. Yeah. Well, there you go. So we were together constantly, just running the school together. And then eventually I moved over to San Bernardino, and it was, gosh, some 1213, years later, we got married in on June 28 1987 and but nothing really changed, because we had already been living together and raising five children. GLORIA had four from a private prior marriage, and I had my little girl. So we we got all these five kids through elementary and junior high in high school, and they all went to college. And they're all beautiful kids and productive citizens, two of them still in show biz. Her son, my stepson, Christopher Allen, is a successful producer now and of Broadway shows. And our daughter, Barbara Bermudez, the baby that Gloria fell in love with. She's now a producer slash stage manager director. She does really well at big events with keynote speakers. And she'll, if they want her to, she will hire in everything from lighting and sound to extra performers and that sort of thing. And she's, she's just busy constantly all over the world, wow. Michael Hingson ** 21:43 Well, that's pretty cool. And what are the other three doing? Ron Cocking ** 21:47 One is a VP of Sales for it's a tub and shower company, jacuzzi, and the other one is a married housewife, but now she is a grandmother and has two little grandkids, and they that's Janet, the one that I originally had worked with in that children's show. And she and her husband live in Chino Hills, California, which is about 40 minutes from here. I live in Huntington Beach, California now, Michael Hingson ** 22:14 well, and I'm not all that far away from you. We're in Victorville. Oh, Victorville, okay, yeah, the high desert. So the next time you go to Vegas, stop by on your way, I'll do that, since that's mainly what Victorville is probably most known for. I remember when I was growing I grew up in Palmdale, and Palmdale wasn't very large. It only had like about 20 703,000 people. But as I described it to people, Victorville wasn't even a speck on a radar scope compared to Palmdale at that time. Yeah, my gosh, are over 120,000 people in this town? Ron Cocking ** 22:51 Oh, I remember the drive in the early days from here to Vegas in that you really felt like you could get out on the road all alone and relax and take it all in, and now it can be trafficking all all the Speaker 1 ** 23:04 way. Yeah, it's crazy. I don't know. I still think they need to do something to put some sort of additional infrastructure, and there's got to be another way to get people to Vegas and back without going on i 15, because it is so crowded, especially around holidays, that one of these days, somebody will get creative. Maybe they'll get one of Tesla's tunnel boring tools, and they'll make a tunnel, and you can go underground the whole way, I don't know, Ron Cocking ** 23:32 but that would be, that would be great. Something like that would happen. Michael Hingson ** 23:38 Well, so you you started the school and and that did, pretty cool. Did, did Gloria do any more acting after our Miss Brooks? And then we should explain our Miss Brooks is a show that started on radio. Yes, it went on to television, and it was an arm is Brooks. Miss Brooks played by e vardin. Was a teacher at Madison High, and the principal was Osgood Conklin, played by Gail Gordon, who was absolutely perfect for the part. He was a crotchety old curmudgeon by any standards. And Gloria played his daughter, Harriet correct. And so when it went from radio to television, one of the things that strikes me about armas Brooks and a couple of those shows, burns and Allen, I think, is sort of the same. Jack Benny was a little different. But especially armas Brooks, it just seems to me like they they took the radio shows and all they did was, did the same shows. They weren't always the same plots, but it was, it was radio on television. So you, you had the same dialog. It was really easy for me to follow, and it was, was fascinating, because it was just like the radio shows, except they were on television. Ron Cocking ** 24:56 Yeah, pretty much. In fact, there were a lot, there's lots of episodes. Episodes that are even named the same name as they had on the radio, and they're just have to be reworked for for the television screen, Michael Hingson ** 25:08 yeah, but the the dialog was the same, which was so great, Ron Cocking ** 25:13 yeah, yeah. And to see what was I going to add, it was our Miss Brooks was one of the very few radio shows that made the transition to television with the cast with the same intact. Yeah, everybody looked like they sounded. So it worked when they were in front of the camera. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 25:33 it sort of worked with Jack Benny, because most of the well, all the characters were in it, Don Wilson, Mary, Livingston, Dennis day, Rochester, world, yeah. And of course, Mel Blanc, yeah, oh. Ron Cocking ** 25:49 GLORIA tells a story. She she and her mom, Hazel, were walking down the street on the way to do a radio show in the old days in Hollywood, and here comes Mel blank, he says, he pulls over. Says, Hey, where are you girls headed because I know that he probably recognized them from being at at CBS all the time, and they said, We're headed to CBS. He said, hop in. Oh, that's where I'm going. So Mel Brooks gave her a ride to the Mel Blanc, yeah, would have been Michael Hingson ** 26:15 fun if Mel Brooks had but that's okay, Young Frankenstein, but that's another story. It is. But that's that's cool. So did they ever? Did she ever see him any other times? Or was that it? Ron Cocking ** 26:30 No, I think that was it. That's the one story that she has where Mel Blanc is involved. Michael Hingson ** 26:36 What a character, though. And of course, he was the man of a million voices, and it was just incredible doing I actually saw a couple Jack Benny shows this morning and yesterday. One yesterday, he was Professor LeBlanc teaching Jack Benny how to play the violin, which was a lost cause. Ron Cocking ** 26:59 Actually, Jack Benny was not a bad view. No, Michael Hingson ** 27:01 he wasn't violent. No, he wasn't. He had a lot of fun with it, and that stick went straight in from radio to television, and worked really well, and people loved it, and you knew what was going to happen, but it didn't matter. But it was still Ron Cocking ** 27:16 funny, and I'm sure during the transition they there was a little bit of panic in the writers department, like, okay, what are we going to do? We got to come up with a few shows. We got to get ahead a little bit. So the writing being just a little different, I'm sure that's part of the reason why they went back and kind of leaned on the old, old script somewhat, until they kind of cut their teeth on the new this new thing called television Michael Hingson ** 27:39 well, but they still kept a lot of the same routines in one way or another. Ron Cocking ** 27:45 Yeah, when they work, they work, whether you're just listening or whether you're watching, Michael Hingson ** 27:48 right, exactly what other shows made it from radio to television with the cast Ron Cocking ** 27:53 intact? You know, I am not up on that number. I Michael Hingson ** 27:57 know there were a couple that did. RMS, Brooks was, well, oh no, I was gonna say Abbott and Costello, but that was different, but our Miss Brooks certainly did. If Ron Cocking ** 28:09 the Bickersons did, I forget the two actors that did that show, but that was a really, Francis Michael Hingson ** 28:13 Langford and Donna Michi could be, but I think burns and Allen, I think, kept the same people as much as there were. Harry bonzell was still with them, and so on. But it was interesting to see those. And I'm awake early enough in the morning, just because it's a good time to get up, and I get and be real lazy and go slowly to breakfast and all that. But I watched the Benny show, and occasionally before it, I'll watch the burns and Allen show. And I think that the plots weren't as similar from radio to television on the burns and Allen show as they weren't necessarily in the Benny show, but, but it all worked. Ron Cocking ** 28:58 Yeah, yeah. That's why they were on the air for so long? Michael Hingson ** 29:02 Yeah, so what other kind of acting did Gloria do once? So you guys started the school Ron Cocking ** 29:10 well after she well, when we started the school, we found ourselves, you know, raising five children. And so I continued playing nightclub gigs. I had one, one nightclub job for like, five years in a row with two wonderful, wonderful musicians that were like fathers to me. And Gloria actually went to work for her brother in law, and she became a salesperson, and eventually the VP of Sales for a fiberglass tub and shower business down here in Santa Ana. So she drove that 91 freeway from San Bernardino, Santa Ana, all the time. But in, Michael Hingson ** 29:47 yeah, you could do it back then, much more than now. It was a little better Ron Cocking ** 29:51 and but in, but twist in between, she managed. Her mom still did a little bit of agency. And she would call Gloria and say. Want you to go see so and so. She did an episode of perfect strangers. She did an episode with Elliot of the guy that played Elliot Ness, stack the show Robert Stack the show was called Help Wanted no see. I guess that was an in but wanted, anyway, she did that. She did a movie with Bruce Dern and Melanie Griffith called Smile. And so she kept, she kept her foot in the door, but, but not, not all that much she she really enjoyed when John Wilder, one of her childhood acting buddies, who she called her brother, and he still calls her sis, or he would call her sis, still. His name was Johnny McGovern when he was a child actor, and when he decided to try some movie work, he there was another Johnny McGovern in Screen Actors Guild, so he had to change his name to John Wyler, but he did that mini series called centennial, and he wanted Gloria for a specific role, to play a German lady opposite the football player Alex Karras. And they had a couple of really nice scenes together. I think she was in three, maybe four of the segments. And there were many segments, it was like a who's who in Hollywood, the cast of that show Michael Hingson ** 31:28 does that was pretty cool. Ron Cocking ** 31:32 But anyway, yeah, after Gloria finished armas Brooks, she became married to Gilbert Allen, who, who then became a Presbyterian minister. So Gloria, when you said, Did she continue acting? There's a lot of acting that goes on being a minister and being a minister's wife, and she would put together weddings for people, and that sort of thing. And she did that for 20 years. Wow. So she Gloria was a phenomenon. She did so many things. And she did them all so very well, in my Speaker 1 ** 32:04 opinion. And so did you? Yeah, which is, which is really cool. So you, but you, you both started the school, and that really became your life's passion for 44 years. Yes, Ron Cocking ** 32:16 we would get up in the mornings, go do a little business, come home, have a little lunch, go back about 132 o'clock, and we would normally crank up about four after the kids get out of school, and we would teach from four to nine, sometimes to 10. Go out, have some dinner. So yeah, we pretty much 24/7 and we had had such similar backgrounds. Hers on a national radio and television scale, and mine on a much more local, civic light opera scale. But we both had similar relations with our our moms after after the radio tapings and the TV things. GLORIA And her mom. They lived in Beverly Hills, right at Wilshire and Doheny, and they had their favorite chocolate and ice cream stops. And same thing for me, my mom would take me there, two doors down from the little studio where I was taking my tap classes. There was an ice cream parlor, haywoods ice cream. And that was, that was the the lure, if you go in and if you do your practicing, Ronnie, you can, I'll take it for an ice cream so that I did my practicing, had plenty of little treats on the way, so we had that in common, and we both just had very supportive moms that stayed out of the way, not, not what I would call a pushy parent, or, I think you mentioned the helicopter, helicopter, but it Michael Hingson ** 33:37 but it sounds like you didn't necessarily need the bribes to convince you to tap dance, as you know, anyway, but they didn't hurt. Ron Cocking ** 33:46 No, it didn't hurt at all, and it was something to look forward to, but I I just enjoyed it all along. Anyway, I finally got to to really showcase what I could do when I was cast as the dance director in the show 42nd street. Oh, wow. And I was lucky. We were lucky. San Bernardino clo was able to hire John Engstrom, who had done the show on Broadway. The earlier version that came, I think it was on Broadway in the mid or to late 70s. He had worked side by side with Gower Champion putting the show together. He told us all sorts of stories about how long it took Gower to put together that opening dance. Because everything in the opening number you you see those steps later in the show done by the chorus, because the opening number is an audition for dancers who want to be in this new Julian Marsh show. So the music starts, the audience hears, I know there must have been 20 of us tapping our feet off. And then a few seconds later, the curtain rises about two and a half feet. And then they see all these tapping feet. And then the main curtain goes out, and there we all are. And. I my part. I was facing upstage with my back to the audience, and then at some point, turned around and we did it was the most athletic, difficult, two and a half minute tap number I had ever done, I'll bet. But it was cool. There were five or six kids that had done it on Broadway and the national tour. And then during that audition, one more high point, if we have the time, we I was auditioning just like everybody else. The director had called and asked if I would audition, but he wasn't going to be choreographing. John Engstrom was so with there was probably 50 or 60 kids of all ages, some adults auditioning, and at one point, John pulled out one of the auditioners, and he happened to be one of my male tap dance students. And he said, Now I want everybody to watch Paul do this step. Paul did the step. He said, Now he said, Paul, someone is really teaching you well. He said, everybody that's the way to do a traveling timestamp so and that, you know, I'll remember that forever. And it ended up he hired. There were seven myself and seven other of my students were cast in that show. And some of them, some of them later, did the show in Las Vegas, different directors. But yeah, that, that was a high point for me. Speaker 1 ** 36:19 I'm trying to remember the first time I saw 42nd street. I think I've seen it twice on Broadway. I know once, but we also saw it once at the Lawrence Welk Resorts condo there, and they did 42nd street. And that was a lot of that show was just a lot of fun. Anyway, Ron Cocking ** 36:39 it's a fun show. And as John said in that show, The chorus is the star of the show. Speaker 1 ** 36:45 Yeah, it's all about dancing by any by any definition, any standard. It's a wonderful show. And anybody who is listening or watching, if you ever get a chance to go see 42nd street do it, it is, it is. Well, absolutely, well worth it. Ron Cocking ** 37:00 Yeah, good. Good show. Fantastic music, too. Well. Michael Hingson ** 37:03 How did you and Gloria get along so well for so long, basically, 24 hours a day, doing everything together that that I would think you would even be a little bit amazed, not that you guys couldn't do it, but that you did it so well, and so many people don't do it well, Ron Cocking ** 37:21 yeah, I don't know I from, from the the first time we met, we just seemed to be on the same wavelength. And by the way, I found out as time went by, Gloria was like Mrs. Humble. She wasn't a bragger, very humble. And it took me a while to find out what an excellent tap dancer she was. But when we went to the studio in the early days, we had, we just had one room. So she would teach actors for an hour, take a break. I would go in teach a tap class or a movement class or a ballet class. I in the early days, I taught, I taught it all. I taught ballet and jazz and and and and Michael Hingson ** 38:01 tap. Well, let's let's be honest, she had to be able to tap dance around to keep ahead of Osgoode Conklin, but that's another story. Ron Cocking ** 38:09 Yeah. So yeah, that. And as our studio grew, we would walk every day from our first studio down to the corner to a little wind chills donut shop wind chills donuts to get some coffee and come back. And about a year and a half later, after walking by this, this retail vacant spot that was two doors from our studio, we said, I wonder if that might be, you know, something for us, it had a four lease sign. So, long story short, we released it. The owner of the property loved knowing that Gloria Macmillan was that space. And so luckily, you know when things are supposed to happen. They happen as people would move out next to us, we would move in. So we ended up at that particular studio with five different studio rooms. Wow. And so then we can accommodate all of the above, acting, singing classes, all the dance disciplines, all at the same time, and we can, like, quadruple our student body. So then we made another move, because the neighborhood was kind of collapsing around us, we made another room and purchased a building that had been built as a racquetball club. It had six racquetball courts, all 20 by 40, beautiful hardwood. We made four of them, five of them into studios, and then there was a double racquetball racquetball court in the front of the building which they had tournaments in it was 40 by 40 we moved. We made that into a black box theater for Gloria. And the back wall of the theater was one inch glass outside of which the audiences for the racquetball tournaments used to sit. But outside the glass for us, we had to put curtains there, and out front for us was our. Gigantic lobby. The building was 32,000 square feet. Wow, we could it just made our heart, hearts sing when we could walk down that hallway and see a ballet class over here, a tap class over there, singers, singing actors in the acting room. It was beautiful. And again, it was just meant for us because it was our beautiful daughter, Kelly, who passed away just nine months after Gloria did. She's the one that said, you guys ought to look into that. And I said, Well, it's a racquetball court. But again, the first moment we walked in the front door, you start. We started thinking like, whoa. I think we could make this work. And it worked for another 20 years for us and broke our hearts to basically rip it apart, tear the theater down, and everything when we were moving out, because we we couldn't find another studio that was interested in in coming in, because they would have had to purchase the building. We wanted to sell the building. Yeah. So anyway, of all things, they now sell car mufflers out of there. Michael Hingson ** 41:02 That's a little different way, way. Yeah, social shock, did any of your students become pretty well known in the in the entertainment world? Ron Cocking ** 41:11 I wouldn't say well known, but a lot of them have worked a lot and made careers. Some of our former students are now in their 50s, middle 50s, pushing 60, and have done everything from cruise ship to Las Vegas to regional some national tours, even our son, Christopher, he did the national tour of meet me in St Louis with Debbie Boone, okay, and he's the one that is Now a successful producer. He's his latest hit. Well, his first, what can be considered legitimately a Broadway hit show was the show called shucked, and it opened about two years ago, I think, and I finally got to go back to New York and see it just a month before it closed. Very hilarious. Takes place in Iowa. The whole show is built around a county in which everybody that lives there makes their living off of corn, making whiskey. And it is a laugh, way more than a laugh a minute. But anyway, we had one of Gloria's acting students who was hired on with a Jonathan Winters TV sitcom called Davis rules. It ran for two seasons, and here he was like 16 or 17 years old, making, I think it was. He was making $8,000 a week, and he was in heaven. He looked like the Son he played, the grandson of Jonathan Winters and the son of Randy Quaid and so he, yeah, he was in heaven. And then after that, he did a very popular commercial, the 711 brain freeze commercial for Slurpee. The Slurpee, yeah, and he made the so much money from that, but then he kind of disappeared from showbiz. I don't know what he's doing nowadays, Speaker 1 ** 43:00 but it's, it's, it's interesting to, you know, to hear the stories. And, yeah, I can understand that, that not everybody gets to be so famous. Everybody knows them, but it's neat that you had so many people who decided to make entertainment a career. So clearly, you had a pretty good influence on a lot of, a lot of kids. Ron Cocking ** 43:20 Yes, I over the years, Gloria and I felt like we had 1000s of children of our own, that they that we had raised together. It's really a good feeling. And I still get phone calls. We got a phone call once a few years back from from one of our students who had been trying to crack the nut in New York, and she called us like 530 in the morning, because, of course, it was Yeah, but she had just signed her first national tour contract and was going to go out with the show cabaret. So fortunately, we were able to drive up to Santa not let's see, it's just below San San Jose. The show came through San Jose, and we got to see her up there. But those kinds of things are what made us keep teaching, year after year, all these success stories. Of course, we have former students that are now lawyers. Those are actors. Well, we Michael Hingson ** 44:17 won't hold it and we understand, yeah and they are actors, by all means. How many teachers did you have in the studio when you had the big building? Ron Cocking ** 44:26 Gosh, at one time, we had 10 or 12 teachers, teaching vocal teachers, two or three ballet teachers, jazz teachers, and you both taught as well. And we both continued teaching all through that time. We never just became managers, although that's that was part of it, and mixing business with art is a challenge, and it takes kind of a different mindset, and then what an unstoppable mindset you have to have in order to mix business with performing, because it's too. Different sides of your brain and a lot of patience and a lot of patience. And guess who taught me patience? Uh huh, Gloria Macmillan. Michael Hingson ** 45:09 I would Conklin's daughter, yes, and I'll bet that's where she learned patience. No, I'm just teasing, but yeah, I hear you, yeah. Well, I know Karen and I were married for 40 years, until she passed in November of 2022 and there's so many similarities in what you're talking about, because we we could do everything together. We had challenges. Probably the biggest challenge that we ever had was we were living in Vista California, and I was working in Carlsbad, and the president of our company decided that we should open an office, because I was being very successful at selling to the government, we should open an office in the DC area. And so we both got excited about that. But then one day he came in and he had this epiphany. He said, No, not Virginia. I want you to open an office in New York. And Karen absolutely hated that she was ready to go to Virginia and all that. Speaker 1 ** 46:15 But the problem for me was it was either move to New York or take a sales territory that didn't sell very much anymore. The owner wasn't really willing to discuss it, so we had some challenges over that, but the marriage was strong enough that it that it worked out, and we moved to New Jersey, and Karen made a lot of friends back there, but, you know, we always did most everything together. And then when the pandemic occurred, being locked down, it just proved all the more we just did everything together. We were together. We talked a lot, which is, I think one of the keys to any good marriages, and you talk and communicate. Ron Cocking ** 46:56 Yes, in fact, when after we closed the studio in 2018 it took us a few more months to sell our home, and then when we moved down here, it was only about, I don't know, I don't know if it was a full year or not, but the pandemic hit and but it really didn't bother us, because we had, we had been working the teaching scene for so many years that we basically Were done. We basically walked out of the studio. We did. Neither of us have the desire to, well, let's continue in at some level, no, we cherished our time together. We have a little porch out in front of our home here, and it gets the ocean breeze, and we would sit for hours and chat. And oddly enough, not oddly, one of our favorite things to do, we have a website that we went to that had, I think, every radio show of armas Brooks ever made. And we would sit listen to those and just laugh. And, in fact, Gloria, there are some. She said, You know what? I don't even remember that episode at all. So yeah, that that was an interesting part. But yeah, Gloria and I, like your wife and you really enjoyed time together. We never talked about needing separate vacations or anything if we wanted to do something. We did it Speaker 1 ** 48:16 together, yeah, and we did too. And you know, for us it was, it was out of desire, but also was easier for us, because she was in a wheelchair her whole life. I was I'm blind. I've been blind my whole life. And as I tell people, the marriage worked out well. She read, I pushed, and in reality, that really is the way it worked, yeah, yeah. Until she started using a power chair. Then I didn't push. I kept my toes out of the way. But still, it was, it was really did meld and mesh together very well and did everything Ron Cocking ** 48:49 together. That's fantastic. I'm proud of you, Michael, and it really Michael Hingson ** 48:53 it's the only way to go. So I miss her, but like, I keep telling people she's somewhere monitoring me, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. So I got to be a good kid, Ron Cocking ** 49:04 and I'll hear I'll get some notes tonight from the spirit of Gloria McMillan too. I prayed to her before I went on. I said, please let the words flow and please not let me say anything that's inappropriate. And I think she's guided me through okay so far. Michael Hingson ** 49:20 Well, if, if you do something you're not supposed to, she's gonna probably hit you upside the head. You know, did you two ever actually get to perform together? Ron Cocking ** 49:30 Oh, I'm glad you asked that, because, well, it had been years since I knew that she was a darn good tap dancer. In fact, I had a tap dancing ensemble of of my more advanced kids, and if they wanted to dedicate the extra time that it took, we rehearsed them and let them perform at free of charge once they made it to that group, they they did not pay to come in and rehearse with me, because I would spend a lot of time standing there creating so. So we were doing a performance, and we wanted to spotlight, I forget the exact reason why we wanted to spotlight some of Gloria's career. Talk about radio a little bit. And I said, Gloria, would you do a little soft shoe routine? And because we had invited a mutual friend of ours, Walden Hughes, from the reps organization, and he was going to be the guest of honor, so I talked her into it. At first she wasn't going to go for it, but we had so much fun rehearsing it together. And it wasn't a long routine, it was relatively short, beautiful music, little soft shoe, and it was so much fun to say that we actually tap danced together. But the other times that we actually got to work together was at the old time radio conventions, mostly with reps, and that's really when I got to sit on stage. I was kind of typecast as an announcer, and I got to do some commercials. I got to sing once with Lucy arnazza. Oh, life, a life boy soap commercial. But when Gloria, Well, Gloria did the lead parts, and oh my gosh, that's when I realized what a superb actress she was. And if I don't know if you've heard of Greg Oppenheimer, his father, Jess Oppenheimer created the I Love Lucy shows, and so Gloria loved Jess Oppenheimer. And so Greg Oppenheimer, Jess Son, did a lot of directing, and oh my gosh, I would see he came in very well prepared and knew how the lines should be delivered. And if Gloria was not right on it, he would say, No, wait a minute, Gloria, I want you to emphasize the word decided, and that's going to get the laugh. And when he gave her a reading like that man, the next time she went through that dialog, just what he had asked for. And I thought, Oh my gosh. And her timing, after watching so many armist Brooks TV and listening to radio shows. GLORIA learned her comedic timing from one of the princesses of comedy timing is Eve Arden, right? They were so well for obvious reasons. They were so very similar. And if you have time to story for another story, do you know have you heard of Bob Hastings? He was the lieutenant on McHale's navy. McHale's Navy, right? Yeah. Well, he also did a lot of old time radio. So we went up to Seattle, Michael Hingson ** 52:32 our two grandkids, Troy Amber, he played, not Archie. Was it Henry Aldridge? He was on, Ron Cocking ** 52:40 I think you're right. I'm not too up on the cast of the old time radio show. Yeah, I think you're right. But anyway, he was there, and there was an actress that had to bow out. I don't know who that was, but our grandsons and Gloria and I, we walked in, and as usual, we say hi to everybody. We're given a big packet of six or eight scripts each, and we go to our room and say, Oh my gosh. Get out the pencils, and we start marking our scripts. So we get a phone call from Walden, and he said, hey, Ron Bob. Bob Hastings wants to see Gloria in his room. He wants to read through he's not sure if he wants to do the Bickersons script, because he you know, the gal bowed out and right, you know, so Gloria went down Michael Hingson ** 53:23 couple of doors, coming Ron Cocking ** 53:26 Yes, and she so she came back out of half an hour, 40 minutes later, and she said, well, that little stinker, he was auditioning me. He went in and she went in and he said, Well, you know, I don't know if I want to do this. It doesn't seem that funny to me. Let's read a few lines. Well, long story short, they read the whole thing through, and they were both, they were both rolling around the floor. I'll bet they laughing and so and then jump to the following afternoon, they did it live, and I was able to watch. I had some pre time, and I watched, and they were just fantastic together. I left after the show, I went to the green room, had a little snack, and I was coming back to our room, walking down the hall, and here comes Bob Hastings, and he says, oh, Ron. He said, Your wife was just fantastic. So much better than the other girl would have been. So when I told GLORIA That story that made her her day, her week. She felt so good about that. So that's my Bob Hastings story. Bob Hastings and Gloria Macmillan were great as the Bickersons. Speaker 1 ** 54:29 Yeah, that was a very clever show. It started on the Danny Thomas show, and then they they ended up going off and having their own show, Francis Langford and Donna Michi, but they were very clever. Ron Cocking ** 54:42 Now, did you realize when now that you mentioned Danny Thomas? Did you realize that Gloria's mom, Hazel McMillan, was the first female agent, talent agent in Hollywood? No, and that's how you know when the. They moved from from Portland, Oregon, a little city outside of Portland. They moved because Gloria's mom thought she had talent enough to do radio, and it wasn't a year after they got here to LA that she did her first national show for Lux radio at the age of five. That was in 1937 with with Edward G Robinson. I've got a recording of that show. What's what show was it? It was a Christmas show. And I don't remember the name of the of it, but it was a Christmas show. It was Walden that sent us. Sent Michael Hingson ** 55:33 it to us. I'll find it. I've got it, I'm sure. Ron Cocking ** 55:35 And so, yeah, so, so Gloria was a member of what they called the 500 club. There was a group of, I don't know, nine or 10 kids that by the time the photograph that I have of this club, it looks like Gloria is around 12 to 14 years old, and they had all done 500 or more radio shows. Wow, that's a lot of radio show. There's a lot of radio So Gloria did, I mean, I got a short my point was, her mom was an agent, and when Gloria was working so consistently at armas Brooks, she said, Well, I'm kind of out of a job. I don't need to take you. GLORIA could drive then. And so she came back from the grocery store, Ralph's market near Wilshire and Doheny, and she came back said, Well, I know what I'm going to do. I ran into this cute little boy at the grocery store. I'm going to represent him for television. And she that's, she started the Hazel McMillan agency, and she ran that agency until she just couldn't anymore. I think she ran it until early 1980s but she, my god, she represented people like Angela Cartwright on the Danny Thomas show and Kathy Garver on, all in the family a family affair. Family Affair. Yeah. Jane north. Jane North went in for Dennis the Menace. He didn't get the role. He came back said, Hazel, I don't think they liked me, and they didn't. They didn't call me back or anything. Hazel got on that phone, said, Look, I know this kid can do what you're asking for. I want you to see him again. He went back and they read him again. He got the part, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 57:21 and he was perfect for it. Ron Cocking ** 57:22 He was perfect for that part was, I'm sorry. Michael Hingson ** 57:27 It's sad that he passed earlier this year. Ron Cocking ** 57:29 Yeah, he passed and he had, he had a tough life, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 57:36 well, you know, tell me you, you have what you you have some favorite words of wisdom. Tell me about those. Ron Cocking ** 57:45 Oh, this goes back to the reason why I came across this when I was looking for something significant to say on the opening of one of our big concert programs. We used to do all of our shows at the California theater of Performing Arts in San Bernardino, it's a really, a real gem of a theater. It's where Will Rogers gave his last performance. And so I came across this, and it's, I don't know if this is biblical, you might, you might know, but it's, if you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If you teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. And that's what I felt like Gloria and I were trying to do. We wanted to teach these kids as as professionally. We treated our students as they were, as if they were little professionals. We we expected quality, we expected them to work hard, but again, Gloria taught me patience, unending patience. But we knew that we wanted them to feel confident when the time came, that they would go out and audition. We didn't want them to be embarrassed. We want we wanted them to be able to come back to us and say, Boy, I felt so good at that audition. I knew all the steps I was and I and I read so well it was. And thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And so that aspect of it, we felt that we were feeding them for a lifetime, but we also were creating all of these arts patrons, all these lovers of the arts, 1000s of kids now love to go to musicals and movies and plays because they've kind of been there and done that at our studio. And so anyway, that's and whether, whether or not it was their confidence in show business or whether it was their confidence we've had so many calls from and visits from parents and former students saying, Boy, I just was awarded a job. And they said my my communication skills were excellent, and I owe that to Gloria. I was on the beach the other day, and I looked over and there was this young man and his wife. I assumed it was his wife. It was they were setting. Up their beach chairs, and I looked and I say, Excuse me, is your name Brandon? And he said, No, but he said, Is your name Ron? And I said, Yes. He said, No, my name is Eric. And I said, Eric puentes. And so we reminisced for a while. He took tap from me. He took acting from Gloria, and he said, you know, he was sad to hear of Gloria's passing. And he said, You know, I owe so much to Gloria. I learned so much about speaking in front of groups. And he is now a minister. He has his own church in Redlands, California, and he's a minister. And of all the billion people on the beach, he sits next to me. So that's one of those things when it's supposed to Michael Hingson ** 1:00:41 happen. It happens. It does. Yeah, well, and as we talked about earlier, you and Gloria did lots of stuff with reps, and I'm going to miss it this time, but I've done a few, and I'm going to do some more. What I really enjoy about people who come from the radio era, and who have paid attention to the radio era is that the acting and the way they project is so much different and so much better than people who have no experience with radio. And I know Walden and I have talked about the fact that we are looking to get a grant at some point so that we can train actors or people who want to be involved in these shows, to be real actors, and who will actually go back and listen to the shows, listen to what people did, and really try to bring that forward into the recreations, because so many people who haven't really had the experience, or who haven't really listened to radio programs sound so forced, as opposed to natural. Ron Cocking ** 1:01:46 I agree, and I know exactly what you're saying. In fact, Walden on a couple of at least two or three occasions, he allowed us to take some of Gloria's acting students all the way to Seattle, and we did some in for the spurred vac organization Los Angeles, we did a beautiful rendition of a script that we adapted of the Velveteen Rabbit. And of all people, Janet Waldo agreed to do the fairy at the end, and she was exquisite. And it's only like, I don't know, four or five lines, and, oh my gosh, it just wrapped it up with a satin bow. And, but, but in some of our kids, yeah, they, they, they were very impressed by the radio, uh, recreations that they were exposed to at that convention. Speaker 1 ** 1:02:37 Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's, it is so wonderful to hear some of these actors who do it so well, and to really see how they they are able to pull some of these things together and make the shows a lot better. And I hope that we'll see more of that. I hope that we can actually work to teach more people how to really deal with acting from a standpoint of radio, Ron Cocking ** 1:03:04 that's a great idea. And I know Walden is really sensitive to that. He Yeah, he would really be a proponent of that. Michael Hingson ** 1:03:10 Oh, he and I have talked about it. We're working on it. We're hoping we can get some things. Well, I want to thank you for being here. We've been doing this an hour already.

christmas god tv new york california children english lord hollywood los angeles las vegas discover england talk new york times seattle speaker sales german dc new jersey explore oregon dad mom santa hospitals portland iowa teach tesla broadway blind cbs southern california navy act humble ambassadors thunder boy educators smile oz stitcher wizard tap ebooks rams fantastic unstoppable excuse compare rochester muppets beverly hills san jose ratings st louis opened abbott performer performing arts rutgers university menace tonight show takes steve martin lg canyon mel brooks livingston costello presbyterian family affair walden lux american red cross hi fi johnny carson santa ana san bernardino huntington beach braille gigantic help wanted big band young frankenstein carlsbad i love lucy gene kelly fred astaire my fair lady national federation redlands st louis blues randy quaid screen actors guild conklin scruggs gower rms bruce dern will rogers slurpee mchale muppet movie melanie griffith jack benny michael h buddy rich palmdale mel blanc robert stack velveteen rabbit edward g robinson total cost wilshire chino hills victorville exxon mobile danny thomas chief vision officer eliza doolittle jonathan winters federal express riverside california don wilson vera lynn scripps college dick powell leslie uggams doheny pajama game elliot ness cocking michael hingson miss brooks eve arden christopher allen our miss brooks cal state san bernardino bickersons kathy garver debbie boone riverside city college accessibe alex karras american humane association thunder dog angela cartwright madison high bob hastings janet waldo gower champion ruth lee hero dog awards vista california julian marsh johnny mcgovern osgood conklin jess oppenheimer

Wachsende Ängste vor "übertriebenem" Klimaschutz? - Interview mit Michael Hüther, Direktor des Instituts der Deutschen Wirtschaft (IW)

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 6, 2025 13:54

Engels, Silvia www.deutschlandfunk.de, Interviews

interview klimaschutz direktor ngste engels instituts ther michael h deutschen wirtschaft wirtschaft iw

Episode 384 – Building Unstoppable Growth Starts with People, Process, and Product with Jan Southern

united states ceo california texas children ai google growth new york times speaker illinois hospitals oklahoma pizza starts wall street product blind kansas southern california ps ambassadors thunder new mexico southern degree stitcher san antonio ibm vermont ebooks unstoppable files norman tulsa liberal ferguson chief operating officer realistic implementation domino hq rutgers university world trade center morgan stanley state university burlington oklahoma state west texas kaizen american red cross jersey city xerox kaiser permanente braille four corners national federation wiring sharepoint adept michael h exit planning ccu kurzweil burlington vermont exxon mobile chief vision officer federal express people process scripps college michael hingson certified exit planning advisor accessibe american humane association thunder dog hero dog awards

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 31, 2025 64:58

What does it take to keep a family business thriving for generations? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I talk with Jan Southern, a seasoned business advisor who helps family-owned companies build long-term success through structure, trust, and clarity. We explore why so many family firms lose their way by the third generation—and what can be done right now to change that story. Jan shares how documenting processes, empowering people, and aligning goals can turn complexity into confidence. We unpack her “Three Ps” framework—People, Process, and Product—and discuss how strong leadership, accountability, and smart AI adoption keep growth steady and sustainable. If you've ever wondered what separates businesses that fade from those that flourish, this conversation will show you how to turn structure into freedom and process into legacy. Highlights: 00:10 – Why unexpected stories reveal how real businesses grow. 01:39 – How early life in Liberal, Kansas shaped a strong work ethic. 07:51 – What a 10,000 sq ft HQ build-out teaches about operations. 09:35 – How a trading floor was rebuilt in 36 hours and why speed matters. 11:21 – Why acquisitions fail without tribal knowledge and culture continuity. 13:19 – What Ferguson Alliance does for mid-market family businesses. 14:08 – Why many family firms don't make it to the third generation. 17:33 – How the 3 Ps—people, process, product—create durable growth. 20:49 – Why empowerment and clear decision rights prevent costly delays. 33:02 – The step-by-step process mapping approach that builds buy-in. 36:41 – Who should sponsor change and how to align managers. 49:36 – Why process docs and succession planning start on day one. 56:21 – Realistic timelines: six weeks to ninety days and beyond. 58:19 – How referrals expand projects across departments. About the Guest: With over 40 years of experience in the realm of business optimization and cost-effective strategies, Jan is a seasoned professional dedicated to revolutionizing company efficiency. From collaborating with large corporations encompassing over 1,000 employees to small 2-person offices, Jan's expertise lies in meticulously analyzing financials, processes, policies and procedures to drive enhanced performance. Since joining Ferguson Alliance in 2024, Jan has become a Certified Exit Planning Advisor and is currently in the process of certification in Artificial Intelligence Consulting and Implementation, adding to her ability to quickly provide businesses with an assessment and tools that will enhance their prosperity in today's competitive landscape. Jan's forte lies in crafting solutions that align with each client's vision, bolstering their bottom line and staffing dynamics. Adept in setting policies that align with company objectives, Jan is renowned for transforming challenges into opportunities for growth and longevity. With a knack for unraveling inefficiencies and analyzing net income, Jan is a go-to expert for family-owned businesses looking to extend their legacy into future generations. Ways to connect with Jan: Email address : Jan@Ferguson-Alliance.com Phone: 713 851 2229 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jansouthern cepa Website: https://ferguson alliance.com About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone. I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. But the neat thing about it is we don't usually deal with inclusion or diversity. We deal with everything, but that because people come on this podcast to tell their own stories, and that's what we get to do today with Jan southern not necessarily anything profound about inclusion or diversity, but certainly the unexpected. And I'm sure we're going to figure out how that happens and what's unexpected about whatever I got to tell you. Before we started, we were just sitting here telling a few puns back and forth. Oh, well, we could always do that, Jan, well, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Thank you so much. Glad to be here. Any puns before we start? Jan Southern ** 02:09 No, I think we've had enough of those. I think we did it Michael Hingson ** 02:11 in, huh? Yes. Well, cool. Well, I want to thank you for being here. Jan has been very actively involved in a lot of things dealing with business and helping people and companies of all sizes, companies of all sizes. I don't know about people of all sizes, but companies of all sizes in terms of becoming more effective and being well, I'll just use the term resilient, but we'll get into that. But right now, let's talk about the early Jan. Tell us about Jan growing up and all that sort of stuff that's always fun to start with. Jan Southern ** 02:50 Yes, I grew up in Liberal Kansas, which is a small town just north of the Oklahoma border and a little bit east of New Mexico kind of down in that little Four Corners area. And I grew up in the time when we could leave our house in the morning on the weekends and come home just before dusk at night, and our parents didn't panic, you know. So it was a good it was a good time growing up. I i lived right across the street from the junior high and high school, so I had a hugely long walk to work, I mean, Michael Hingson ** 03:28 to school, Jan Southern ** 03:30 yeah, and so, you know, was a, was a cheerleader in high school, and went to college, then at Oklahoma State, and graduated from there, and here I am in the work world. I've been working since I was about 20 years old, and I'd hate to tell you how many years that's been. Michael Hingson ** 03:51 You can if you want. I won't tell 03:55 nobody will know. Michael Hingson ** 03:57 Good point. Well, I know it's been a long time I read your bio, so I know, but that's okay. Well, so when you What did you major in in college psychology? Ah, okay. And did you find a bachelor's degree or just bachelor's Jan Southern ** 04:16 I did not. I got an Mrs. Degree and had two wonderful children and grew up, they've grown up and to become very fine young men with kids of their own. So I have four grandchildren and one great grandchild, so Michael Hingson ** 04:33 Wowie Zowie, yeah, that's pretty cool. So when you left college after graduating, what did you do? Jan Southern ** 04:40 I first went to work in a bank. My ex husband was in pharmacy school at Oklahoma, State University of Oklahoma, and so I went to work in a bank. I was the working wife while he went to pharmacy school. And went to work in a bank, and years later, became a bank consultant. So we we lived in Norman, Oklahoma until he was out of school and and as I began having children during our marriage, I went to work for a pediatrician, which was very convenient when you're trying to take care of kids when they're young. Michael Hingson ** 05:23 Yeah, and what did you What did you do for a pediatrician? Jan Southern ** 05:27 I was, I was her receptionist, and typed medical charts, so I learned a lot about medicine. Was very she was head of of pediatrics at a local hospital, and also taught at the university. And so I got a great education and health and well being of kids. It was, it was a great job. Michael Hingson ** 05:51 My my sister in law had her first child while still in high school, and ended up having to go to work. She went to work for Kaiser Permanente as a medical transcriber, but she really worked her way up. She went to college, got a nursing degree, and so on, and she became a nurse. And eventually, when she Well, she didn't retire, but her last job on the medical side was she managed seven wards, and also had been very involved in the critical care unit. Was a nurse in the CCU for a number of years. Then she was tasked. She went to the profit making side of Kaiser, as it were, and she was tasked with bringing paperless charts into Kaiser. She was the nurse involved in the team that did that. So she came a long way from being a medical transcriber. Jan Southern ** 06:51 Well, she came a long way from being a single mom in high school. That's a great story of success. Michael Hingson ** 06:56 Well, and she wasn't totally a single mom. She she and the guy did marry, but eventually they they did divorce because he wasn't as committed as he should be to one person, if it were, Speaker 1 ** 07:10 that's a familiar story. And he also drank and eventually died of cirrhosis of the liver. Oh, that's too bad. Yeah, that's always sad, but, you know, but, but she coped, and her her kids cope. So it works out okay. So you went to work for a pediatrician, and then what did you do? Jan Southern ** 07:31 Well, after my husband, after he graduated, was transferred to Dallas, and I went to work for a company gardener, Denver company at the time, they've been since purchased by another company. And was because of my experience in banking prior to the pediatrician, I went to work in their corporate cash management division, and I really enjoyed that I was in their corporate cash management for their worldwide division, and was there for about four years, and really enjoyed it. One of my most exciting things was they were moving their headquarters from Quincy, Illinois down to Dallas. And so I had been hired. But since they were not yet in Dallas, I worked with a gentleman who was in charge of putting together their corporate offices. And so we made all the arrangements. As far as we had a got a 10,000 square foot blank space when we started. And our job was to get every desk, every chair, every pen and pencil. And so when somebody moved from Quincy, Illinois, they moved in and they had their desk all set up. Their cuticles were cubicles were ready to go and and they were they could hit the ground running day one, so that, Michael Hingson ** 09:02 so you, you clearly really got into dealing with organization, I would would say, then, wouldn't, didn't you? Jan Southern ** 09:11 Yes, yes, that was my, probably my first exposure to to the corporate world and learning exactly how things could be more efficient, more cost effective. And I really enjoyed working for that company. Michael Hingson ** 09:30 I remember, after September 11, we worked to provide the technology that we were selling, but we provided technology to Wall Street firms so they could recover their data and get set up again to be able to open the stock exchange and all the trading floors on the 17th of September. So the next Monday. And it was amazing, one of the companies was, I think it was Morgan Stanley. Finally and they had to go find new office space, because their office space in the World Trade Center was, needless to say, gone. They found a building in Jersey City that had a floor, they said, about the size of a football field, and from Friday night to Sunday afternoon, they said it took about 36 hours. They brought in computers, including IBM, taking computers from some of their own people, and just bringing them into to Morgan Stanley and other things, including some of the technology that we provided. And within 36 hours, they had completely reconstructed a trading floor. That's amazing. It was, it was absolutely amazing to see that. And you know, for everyone, it was pretty crazy, but Wall Street opened on the 17th and and continued to survive. Jan Southern ** 10:57 That's a great story. Michael Hingson ** 10:59 So what did you do? So you did this, this work with the 10,000 square foot space and other things like that. And then what? Jan Southern ** 11:08 Well, once, once everyone moved into the space in Dallas. Then I began my work in their in their corporate cash management area. And from there, my next job was working in a bank when my my husband, then was transferred back to Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I went back to work in banking. And from that bank, I was there about three to four years, and I was hired then by John Floyd as a as a consultant for banks and credit unions, and I was with that company for 42 years. My gosh, I know that's unusual these days, but I really enjoyed what I did. We did re engineering work and cost effectiveness and banks and credit unions for those 42 years. And so that was where I really cut my teeth on process improvement and continuous improvement, and still in that industry. But their company was bought by a an equity firm. And of course, when that happens, they like to make changes and and bring in their own folks. So those of us who had been there since day one were no longer there. Michael Hingson ** 12:26 When did that happen? Jan Southern ** 12:27 That was in 2022 Michael Hingson ** 12:32 so it's interesting that companies do that they always want to bring in their own people. And at least from my perspective, it seems to me that they forget that they lose all the tribal knowledge that people who have been working there have that made the company successful Jan Southern ** 12:51 Absolutely. So I guess they're still doing well, and they've done well for themselves afterwards, and but, you know, they do, they lose all the knowledge, they lose all of the continuity with the clients. And it's sad that they do that, but that's very, very common. Michael Hingson ** 13:13 Yeah, I know I worked for a company that was bought by Xerox, and all the company wanted was our technology. All Xerox wanted was the technology. And they lost all of the knowledge that all the people with sales experience and other kinds of experiences brought, because they terminated all of us when the company was fully in the Xerox realm of influence. Jan Southern ** 13:39 So you know what I went through? Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 13:42 Well, what did you do after you left that company? After you left John Floyd, Jan Southern ** 13:47 I left John Floyd, I was under a I was under a non compete, so I kind of knocked around for a couple of years. I was of age where I could have retired, but I wasn't ready to. So then I found Ferguson Alliance, and I'm now a business advisor for family owned businesses, and so I've been with Ferguson just over a year, and doing the same type of work that I did before. In addition to that, I have become a certified Exit Planning advisor, so that I can do that type of work as well. So that's that's my story in a nutshell. As far as employment, Michael Hingson ** 14:26 what is Ferguson Alliance? Jan Southern ** 14:29 Ferguson Alliance, we are business advisors for family owned businesses. And the perception is that a family owned business is going to be a small business, but there are over 500,000 family owned businesses in the United States. Our market is the middle market, from maybe 50 employees up to 1000 20 million in revenues, up to, you know, the sky's the limit, and so we do. Do a lot of work as far as whatever can help a family owned business become more prosperous and survive into future generations. It's a sad statistic that most family owned businesses don't survive into the third generation. Michael Hingson ** 15:16 Why is that? Jan Southern ** 15:19 I think because they the first the first generation works themselves, their fingers to the bone to get their their business off the ground, and they get successful, and their offspring often enjoy, if you will, the fruits of the labors of their parents and so many of them, once they've gone to college, they don't have an interest in joining the firm, and so they go on and succeed on their own. And then their children, of course, follow the same course from from their work. And so that's really, I think, the primary reason, and also the the founders of the businesses have a tendency to let that happen, I think. And so our coaching programs try to avoid that and help them to bring in the second and third generations so that they can, you know, they can carry on a legacy of their parents or the founders. Michael Hingson ** 16:28 So what do you do, and what kinds of initiatives do you take to extend the longevity of a family owned business then, Jan Southern ** 16:39 well, the first thing is that that Rob, who's our founder of our family owned business, does a lot of executive coaching and helps the helps the people who are within the business, be it the founder or being at their second or third generations, and he'll help with coaching them as to how to, hey, get past the family dynamics. Everybody has their own business dynamics. And then you add on top of that, the family dynamics, in addition to just the normal everyday succession of a business. And so we help them to go through those types of challenges, if you will. They're not always a challenge, but sometimes, if there are challenges, Rob's coaching will take them through that and help them to develop a succession plan that also includes a document that says that that governance plan as to how their family business will be governed, in addition to just a simple succession plan, and my role in a lot of that is to make sure that their business is ready to prosper too. You know that their their assessment of as far as whether they're profitable, whether they are their processes are in place, etc, but one of the primary things that we do is to help them make certain that that if they don't want to survive into future generations, that we help them to prepare to either pass it along to a family member or pass it along to someone who's a non family member, right? Michael Hingson ** 18:34 So I've heard you mentioned the 3p that are involved in extending longevity. Tell me about that. What are the three P's? Jan Southern ** 18:41 Well, the first p is your people. You know, if you don't take care of your people, be they family members or non family members, then you're not going to be very successful. So making certain that you have a system in place, have a culture in place that takes care of your people. To us, is very key. Once you make sure that your people are in a culture of continuous improvement and have good, solid foundation. In that regard, you need to make sure that your processes are good. That's the second P that that you have to have your processes all documented, that you've authorized your people to make decisions that they don't always have to go to somebody else. If you're a person in the company and you recognize that something's broken, then you need to have empowerment so that your people can make decisions and not always have to get permission from someone else to make certain that those processes continuously are approved improved. That's how to you. Could have became so successful is they installed a product. They called it, I say, a product. They installed a culture. They called it kaizen. And so Kaizen was simply just continuous improvement, where, if you were doing a process and you ask yourself, why did I do it this way? Isn't there a better way? Then, you know, you're empowered to find a better way and to make sure that that that you can make that decision, as long as it fits in with the culture of the company. Then the third P is product. You know, you've got to have a product that people want. I know that you've seen a lot of companies fail because they're pushing a product that nobody wants. And so you make certain that your products are good, your products are good, high quality, and that you can deliver them in the way that you promise. And so those are really the 3p I'd like to go back to process and just kind of one of the things, as you know, we had some horrendous flooding here in Texas recently, and one of the things that happened during that, and not that it was a cause of it, but just one of the things that exacerbated the situation, is someone called to say, Please, we need help. There's flooding going on. It was one of their first responders had recognized that there was a tragic situation unfolding, and when he called into their system to give alerts, someone says, Well, I'm going to have to get approval from my supervisor, with the approval didn't come in time. So what's behind that? We don't know, but that's just a critical point as to why you should empower your people to make decisions when, when it's necessary. Michael Hingson ** 21:56 I'm sure, in its own way, there was some of that with all the big fires out here in California back in January, although part of the problem with those is that aircraft couldn't fly for 36 hours because the winds were so heavy that there was just no way that the aircraft could fly. But you got to wonder along the way, since they are talking about the fact that the electric companies Southern California, Edison had a fair amount to do with probably a lot a number of the fires igniting and so on, one can only wonder what might have happened if somebody had made different decisions to better prepare and do things like coating the wires so that if they touch, they wouldn't spark and so on that they didn't do. And, you know, I don't know, but one can only wonder. Jan Southern ** 22:53 It's hard to know, you know, and in our situation, would it have made any difference had that person been able to make a decision on her own? Yeah, I was moving so rapidly, it might not have made any any difference at all, but you just have to wonder, like you said, Michael Hingson ** 23:10 yeah, there's no way to, at this point, really know and understand, but nevertheless, it is hopefully something that people learn about for the future, I heard that they're now starting to coat wires, and so hopefully that will prevent a lot, prevent a lot of the sparking and so on. I'd always thought about they ought to put everything underground, but coating wire. If they can do that and do it effectively, would probably work as well. And that's, I would think, a lot cheaper than trying to put the whole power grid underground. Jan Southern ** 23:51 I would think so we did when I was with my prior company. We did a project where they were burying, they were putting everything underground, and Burlington Vermont, and it was incredible what it takes to do that. I mean, you just, we on the outside, just don't realize, you know, there's a room that's like 10 by six underground that carries all of their equipment and things necessary to do that. And I never realized how, how costly and how difficult it was to bury everything. We just have the impression that, well, they just bury this stuff underground, and that's all. That's all it takes. But it's a huge, huge undertaking in order to do that Michael Hingson ** 24:36 well. And it's not just the equipment, it's all the wires, and that's hundreds and of miles and 1000s of miles of cable that has to be buried underground, and that gets to be a real challenge. Jan Southern ** 24:47 Oh, exactly, exactly. So another story about cables. We were working in West Texas one time on a project, and we're watching them stretch the. Wiring. They were doing some internet provisioning for West Texas, which was woefully short on in that regard, and they were stringing the wire using helicopters. It was fascinating, and the only reason we saw that is it was along the roadways when we were traveling from West Texas, back into San Antonio, where flights were coming in and out of so that was interesting to watch. Michael Hingson ** 25:28 Yeah, yeah. People get pretty creative. Well, you know, thinking back a little bit, John Floyd must have been doing something right to keep you around for 42 years. Jan Southern ** 25:40 Yes, they did. They were a fabulous country company and still going strong. I think he opened in 1981 it's called advantage. Now, it's not John Floyd, but Right, that was a family owned business. That's where I got to cut my teeth on the dynamics of a family owned business and how they should work and how and his niece is one of the people that's still with the company. Whether, now that they're owned by someone else, whether she'll be able to remain as they go into different elements, is, is another question. But yeah, they were, they were great. Michael Hingson ** 26:20 How many companies, going back to the things we were talking about earlier, how many companies when they're when they buy out another company, or they're bought out by another company, how many of those companies generally do succeed and continue to grow? Do you have any statistics, or do more tend not to than do? Or Jan Southern ** 26:40 I think that more tend to survive. They tend to survive, though, with a different culture, I guess you would say they they don't retain the culture that they had before. I don't have any firm statistics on that, because we don't really deal with that that much, but I don't they tend to survive with it, with a the culture of the newer company, if they fold them in, yeah. Michael Hingson ** 27:15 Well, and the reality is to be fair, evolution always takes place. So the John Floyd and say, 2022 wasn't the same as the John Floyd company in 1981 Jan Southern ** 27:31 not at all. No, exactly, not at all. Michael Hingson ** 27:34 So it did evolve, and it did grow. And so hopefully, when that company was absorbed elsewhere and with other companies, they they do something to continue to be successful, and I but I think that's good. I know that with Xerox, when it bought Kurzweil, who I worked for, they were also growing a lot and so on. The only thing is that their stock started to drop. I think that there were a number of things. They became less visionary, I think is probably the best way to put it, and they had more competition from other companies developing and providing copiers and other things like that. But they just became less visionary. And so the result was that they didn't grow as much as probably they should have. Jan Southern ** 28:28 I think that happens a lot. Sometimes, if you don't have a culture of continuous improvement and continuous innovation, which maybe they didn't, I'm not that familiar with how they move forward, then you get left behind. You know, I'm I'm in the process right now, becoming certified in artificial intelligent in my old age. And the point that's made, not by the company necessarily that I'm studying with, but by many others, is there's going to be two different kinds of companies in the future. There's going to be those who have adopted AI and those who used to be in business. And I think that's probably fair. Michael Hingson ** 29:13 I think it is. And I also we talked with a person on this podcast about a year ago, or not quite a year ago, but, but he said, AI will not replace anyone's jobs. People will replace people's jobs with AI, but they shouldn't. They shouldn't eliminate anyone from the workforce. And we ended up having this discussion about autonomous vehicles. And the example that he gave is, right now we have companies that are shippers, and they drive product across the country, and what will happen to the drivers when the driving process becomes autonomous and you have self driving vehicles, driving. Across country. And his point was, what they should do, what people should consider doing is not eliminating the drivers, but while the machine is doing the driving, find and give additional or other tasks to the drivers to do so they can continue to be contributors and become more efficient and help the company become more efficient, because now you've got people to do other things than what they were used to doing, but there are other things that AI won't be able to do. And I thought that was pretty fascinating, Jan Southern ** 30:34 exactly. Well, my my nephew is a long haul truck driver. He owns a company, and you know, nothing the AI will never be able to observe everything that's going on around the trucking and and you know, there's also the some of the things that that driver can do is those observations, plus they're Going to need people who are going to program those trucks as they are making their way across the country, and so I'm totally in agreement with what your friend said, or your you know, your guests had to say that many other things, Michael Hingson ** 31:15 yeah, and it isn't necessarily even relating to driving, but there are certainly other things that they could be doing to continue to be efficient and effective, and no matter how good the autonomous driving capabilities are, it only takes that one time when for whatever reason, the intelligence can't do it, that it's good To have a driver available to to to to help. And I do believe that we're going to see the time when autonomous vehicles will be able to do a great job, and they will be able to observe most of all that stuff that goes on around them. But there's going to be that one time and that that happens. I mean, even with drivers in a vehicle, there's that one time when maybe something happens and a driver can't continue. So what happens? Well, the vehicle crashes, or there's another person to take over. That's why we have at least two pilots and airplanes and so on. So right, exactly aspects of it, Jan Southern ** 32:21 I think so I can remember when I was in grade school, they showed us a film as to what someone's vision of the country was, and part of that was autonomous driving, you know. And so it was, it was interesting that we're living in a time where we're beginning to see that, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 32:41 we're on the cusp, and it's going to come. It's not going to happen overnight, but it will happen, and we're going to find that vehicles will be able to drive themselves. But there's still much more to it than that, and we shouldn't be in too big of a hurry, although some so called profit making. People may decide that's not true, to their eventual chagrin, but we shouldn't be too quick to replace people with technology totally Jan Southern ** 33:14 Exactly. We have cars in I think it's Domino's Pizza. I'm not sure which pizza company, but they have autonomous cars driving, and they're cooking the pizza in the back oven of the car while, you know, while it's driving to your location, yeah, but there's somebody in the car who gets out of the car and brings the pizza to my door. Michael Hingson ** 33:41 There's been some discussion about having drones fly the pizza to you. Well, you know, we'll see, Jan Southern ** 33:50 right? We'll see how that goes. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 33:53 I haven't heard that. That one is really, pardon the pun, flown well yet. But, you know, we'll see. So when you start a process, improvement process program, what are some of the first steps that you initiate to bring that about? Well, the first Jan Southern ** 34:11 thing that we do, once we've got agreement with their leadership, then we have a meeting with the people who will be involved, who will be impacted, and we tell them all about what's happening, what's going to happen, and make certain that they're in full understanding. And you know, the first thing that you ever hear when you're saying that you're going to be doing a re engineering or process improvement is they think, Oh, you're just going to come in and tell me to reduce my staff, and that's the way I'm going to be more successful. We don't look at it that way at all. We look at it in that you need to be right. Have your staff being the right size, and so in in many cases, in my past. I we've added staff. We've told them, you're under staffed, but the first thing we do is hold that meeting, make certain that they're all in agreement with what's going to happen, explain to them how it's going to happen, and then the next step is that once management has decided who our counterparts will be within the company. Who's going to be working with us to introduce us to their staff members is we sit down with their staff members and we ask them questions. You know, what do you do? How do you do it? What do you Did someone bring it to you. Are you second in line or next in line for some task? And then once you finish with it, what happens to it? Do you give someone else? Is a report produced? Etc. And so once we've answered all of those questions, we do a little a mapping of the process. And once you map that process, then you take it back to the people who actually perform the process, and you ask them, Did I get this right? I heard you say, this? Is this a true depiction of what's happening? And so we make sure that they don't do four steps. And they told us steps number one and three, so that then, once we've mapped that out, that gives us an idea of two of how can things be combined? Can they be combined? Should you be doing what you're doing here? Is there a more efficient or cost effective way of doing it? And we make our recommendations based on that for each process that we're reviewing. Sometimes there's one or two good processes in an area that we're looking at. Sometimes there are hundreds. And so that's that's the basic process. And then once they've said yes, that is correct, then we make our recommendations. We take it back to their management, and hopefully they will include the people who actually are performing the actions. And we make our recommendations to make changes if, if, if it's correct, maybe they don't need to make any changes. Maybe everything is is very, very perfect the way it is. But in most cases, they brought us in because it's not and they've recognized it's not. So then once they've said, yes, we want to do this, then we help them to implement. Michael Hingson ** 37:44 Who usually starts this process, that is, who brings you in? Jan Southern ** 37:48 Generally, it is going to be, depending upon the size of the company, but in most cases, it's going to be the CEO. Sometimes it's the Chief Operating Officer. Sometimes in a very large company, it may be a department manager, you know, someone who has the authority to bring us in. But generally, I would say that probably 90% of our projects, it's at the C Michael Hingson ** 38:19 level office. So then, based on everything that you're you're discussing, probably that also means that there has to be some time taken to convince management below the CEO or CEO or a department head. You've got to convince the rest of management that this is going to be a good thing and that you have their best interest at heart. Jan Southern ** 38:43 That is correct, and that's primarily the reason that we have for our initial meeting. We ask whoever is the contract signer to attend that meeting and be a part of the discussion to help to ward off any objections, and then to really bring these people along if they are objecting. And for that very reason, even though they may still be objecting, we involve them in the implementation, so an implementation of a of a recommendation has to improve, has to include the validation. So we don't do the work, but we sit alongside the people who are doing the implementation and guide them through the process, and then it's really up to them to report back. Is it working as intended? If it's not, what needs to be changed, what might improve, what we thought would be a good recommendation, and we work with them to make certain that everything works for them. Right? And by the end of that, if they've been the tester, they've been the one who's approved steps along the way, we generally find that they're on board because they're the it's now. They're now the owners of the process. And when they have ownership on something that they've implemented. It's amazing how much more resilient they they think that the process becomes, and now it's their process and not ours. Michael Hingson ** 40:32 Do you find most often that when you're working with a number of people in a company that most of them realize that there need to be some changes, or something needs to be improved to make the whole company work better. Or do you find sometimes there's just great resistance, and people say no, there's just no way anything is bad. Jan Southern ** 40:53 Here we find that 90% of the time, and I'm just pulling that percentage out of the air, I would say they know, they know it needs to be changed. And the ones typically, not always, but typically, the ones where you find the greatest resistance are the ones who know it's broken, but they just don't want to change. You know, there are some people who don't want to change no matter what, or they feel threatened that. They feel like that a new and improved process might take their place. You know, might replace them. And that's typically not the case. It's typically not the case at all, that they're not replaced by it. Their process is improved, and they find that they can be much more productive. But the the ones who are like I call them the great resistors, usually don't survive the process either. They are. They generally let themselves go, Michael Hingson ** 42:01 if you will, more ego than working for the company. Jan Southern ** 42:05 Yes, exactly, you know, it's kind of like my mom, you know, and it they own the process as it was. We used to laugh and call this person Louise, you know, Louise has said, Well, we've always done it that way. You know, that's probably the best reason 20 years in not to continue to do it same way. Michael Hingson ** 42:34 We talked earlier about John Floyd and evolution. And that makes perfect sense. Exactly what's one of the most important things that you have to do to prepare to become involved in preparing for a process, improvement project? I think Jan Southern ** 42:52 the most important thing there's two very important things. One is to understand their culture, to know how their culture is today, so that you know kind of which direction you need to take them, if they're not in a continuous improvement environment, then you need to lead them in that direction if they're already there and they just don't understand what needs to be done. There's two different scenarios, but the first thing you need to do is understand the culture. The second thing that you need to do, other than the culture, is understand their their business. You need to know what they do. Of course, you can't know from the outside how they do it, but you need to know that, for instance, if it's an we're working with a company that cleans oil tanks and removes toxins and foul lines from oil and gas industry. And so if you don't understand at all what they do, it's hard to help them through the processes that they need to go through. And so just learning, in general, what their technology, what their business is about. If you walk in there and haven't done that, you're just blowing smoke. In my mind, you know, I do a lot of research on the technologies that they use, or their company in general. I look at their website, I you know, look at their LinkedIn, their social media and so. And then we request information from them in advance of doing a project, so that we know what their org structure looks like. And I think those things are critical before you walk in the door to really understand their business in general. Michael Hingson ** 44:53 Yeah, and that, by doing that, you also tend to. To gain a lot of credibility, because you come in and demonstrate that you do understand what they're doing, and people respond well to that, I would think Jan Southern ** 45:10 they do. You know, one of our most interesting projects in my past was the electric company that I mentioned. There was an electric company in Burlington, Vermont that did their own electric generation. We've never looked at anything like that. We're a bank consultant, and so we learned all about how they generated energy with wood chips and the, you know, the different things. And, you know, there were many days that I was out watching the wood chips fall out of a train and into their buckets, where they then transferred them to a yard where they moved the stuff around all the time. So, you know, it was, it's very interesting what you learn along the way. But I had done my homework, and I knew kind of what they did and not how they did it in individual aspects of their own processes, but I understood their industry. And so it was, you do walk in with some credibility, otherwise they're looking at you like, well, what does this person know about my job? Michael Hingson ** 46:20 And at the same time, have you ever been involved in a situation where you did learn about the company you you went in with some knowledge, you started working with the company, and you made a suggestion about changing a process or doing something that no one had thought of, and it just clicked, and everybody loved it when they thought about it, Jan Southern ** 46:42 yes, yes, exactly. And probably that electric company was one of those such things. You know, when they hired us, they they told us. We said, We don't know anything about your business. And they said, Good, we don't want you to come in with any preconceived ideas. And so some of the recommendations we made to them. They were, it's kind of like an aha moment. You know, they look at you like, Oh my gosh. I've never thought of that, you know, the same I would say in in banking and in family businesses, you know, they just, they've never thought about doing things in a certain way. Michael Hingson ** 47:20 Can you tell us a story about one of those times? Jan Southern ** 47:24 Yes, I would say that if you're, if you're talking about, let's talk about something in the banking industry, where they are. I was working in a bank, and you, you go in, and this was in the days before we had all of the ways to store things electronically. And so they were having a difficult time in keeping all of their documents and in place and knowing when to, you know, put them in a destruction pile and when not to. And so I would say that they had an aha moment when I said, Okay, let's do this. Let's get a bunch of the little colored dots, and you have big dots and small dots. And I said, everything that you put away for 1990 for instance, then you put on a purple dot. And then for January, you have 12 different colors of the little dots that you put in the middle of them. And you can use those things to determine that everything that has a purple dot and little yellow.in the middle of that one, you know that that needs to be destructed. I think in that case, it was seven years, seven years from now, you know that you need to pull that one off the shelf and put it into the pile to be destructed. And they said, we've never thought of anything. It was like I had told him that, you know, the world was going to be struck, to be gone, to begin tomorrow. Yeah, it was so simple to me, but it was something that they had never, ever thought of, and it solved. They had something like five warehouses of stuff, most of which needed to have been destroyed years before, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 49:21 but still they weren't sure what, and so you gave them a mechanism to do that, Jan Southern ** 49:27 right? Of course, that's all gone out the window today. You don't have to do all that manual stuff anymore. You're just, you know, I'd say another example of that was people who were when we began the system of digitizing the files, especially loan files in a bank. And this would hold true today as well, in that once you start on a project to digitize the files, there's a tendency to take the old. Files first and digitize those. Well, when you do that, before you get to the end of it, if you have a large project, you don't need those files anymore. So you know, our recommendation is start with your latest. You know, anything that needs to be archived, start with the newest, because by the time that you finish your project, some of those old files you won't even need to digitize, just shred them. Yeah, you know, it's, it's just little simple things like that that can make all the difference. Michael Hingson ** 50:32 When should a family business start documenting processes? I think I know that's what I thought you'd say, Jan Southern ** 50:40 yes, yes, that is something that is near and dear to my heart. Is that I would even recommend that you maybe do it before you open your doors, if potential is there, so that the day you open your business, you need to start with your documenting your processes, and you need to start on your succession planning. You know, those are the days that once you really start working, you're not going to have time. You know, you're going to be busy working every day. You're you're going to be busy servicing your customers, and that always gets pushed to the back when you start to document something, and so that's the time do it when you first open your doors. Michael Hingson ** 51:29 So when we talk about processes, maybe it's a fair question to ask, maybe not. But what are we really talking about when we talk about processes and documenting processes? What are the processes? Jan Southern ** 51:41 Well, the processes are the things that you do every day. Let's take as an example, just when you set up your your files within your SharePoint, or within your computer, if you don't use SharePoint, your Google files, how you set those up, a process could also be during your accounting, what's the process that you go through to get a invoice approved? You know, when the invoice comes in from the vendor, what do you do with it? You know, who has to approve it? Are there dollar amounts that you have to have approvals for? Or can some people just take in a smaller invoice and pay it without any any approvals? We like to see there be a process where it's approved before you get the invoice from the customer, where it's been approved at the time of the order. And that way it can be processed more more quickly on the backside, to just make sure that it says what the purchase order if you use purchase orders or see what your agreement was. So it's the it's the workflow. There's something that triggers an action, and then, once gets triggered, then what takes place? What's next, what's the next steps? And you just go through each one of the things that has to happen for that invoice to get paid, and the check or wire transfer, or or whatever you use as a payment methodology for it to go out the door. And so, you know what you what you do is you start, there's something that triggers it, and then there's a goal for the end, and then you fill in in the center, Michael Hingson ** 53:38 and it's, it's, it's a fascinating I hate to use the word process to to listen to all of this, but it makes perfect sense that you should be documenting right from the outset about everything that you do, because it also means that you're establishing a plan so that everyone knows exactly what the expectations are and exactly what it is that needs to be done every step of the way, Jan Southern ** 54:07 right and and one of the primary reasons for that is we can't anticipate life. You know, maybe our favorite person, Louise, is the only one who's ever done, let's say, you know, payroll processing, or something of that sort. And if something happens and Louise isn't able to come in tomorrow, who's going to do it? You know, without a map, a road map, as to the steps that need to be taken, how's that going to take place? And so that's that's really the critical importance. And when you're writing those processes and procedures, you need to make them so that anybody can walk in off the street, if necessary, and do what Louise was doing and have it done. Properly. Michael Hingson ** 55:00 Of course, as we know, Louise is just a big complainer anyway. That's right, you said, yeah. Well, once you've made recommendations, and let's say they're put in place, then what do you do to continue supporting a business? Jan Southern ** 55:20 We check in with them periodically, whatever is appropriate for them and and for the procedures that are there, we make sure that it's working for them, that they're being as prosperous as they want to be, and that our recommendations are working for them. Hopefully they'll allow us to come back in and and most do, and make sure that what we recommended is right and in is working for them, and if so, we make little tweaks with their approvals. And maybe new technology has come in, maybe they've installed a new system. And so then we help them to incorporate our prior recommendations into whatever new they have. And so we try to support them on an ongoing basis, if they're willing to do that, which we have many clients. I think Rob has clients he's been with for ever, since he opened his doors 15 years ago. So Michael Hingson ** 56:19 of course, the other side of that is, I would assume sometimes you work with companies, you've helped them deal with processes and so on, and then you come back in and you know about technology that that they don't know. And I would assume then that you suggest that, and hopefully they see the value of listening to your wisdom. Jan Southern ** 56:41 Absolutely, we find that a lot. We also if they've discovered a technology on their own, but need help with recommendations, as far as implementation, we can help them through that as well, and that's one of the reasons I'm taking this class in AI to be able to help our customers move into a realm where it's much more easily implemented if, if they already have the steps that we've put into place, you can feed that into an AI model, and it can make adjustments to what they're doing or make suggestions. Michael Hingson ** 57:19 Is there any kind of a rule of thumb to to answer this question, how long does it take for a project to to be completed? Jan Southern ** 57:26 You know, it takes, in all fairness, regardless of the size of the company, I would say that they need to allow six weeks minimum. That's for a small company with a small project, it can take as long as a year or two years, depending upon the number of departments and the number of people that you have to talk to about their processes. But to let's just take an example of a one, one single department in a company is looking at doing one of these processes, then they need to allow at least six weeks to for discovery, for mapping, for their people to become accustomed to the new processes and to make sure that the implementation has been tested and is working and and they're satisfied with everything that that is taking place. Six weeks is a very, very minimum, probably 90 days is a more fair assessment as to how long they should allow for everything to take place. Michael Hingson ** 58:39 Do you find that, if you are successful with, say, a larger company, when you go in and work with one department and you're able to demonstrate success improvements, or whatever it is that that you define as being successful, that then other departments want to use your services as well? Jan Southern ** 59:00 Yes, yes, we do. That's a very good point. Is that once you've helped them to help themselves, if you will, once you've helped them through that process, then they recognize the value of that, and we'll move on to another division or another department to do the same thing. Michael Hingson ** 59:21 Word of mouth counts for a lot, Jan Southern ** 59:24 doesn't it? Though, I'd say 90% of our business at Ferguson and company comes through referrals. They refer either through a center of influence or a current client who's been very satisfied with the work that we've done for them, and they tell their friends and networking people that you know. Here's somebody that you should use if you're considering this type of a project. Michael Hingson ** 59:48 Well, if people want to reach out to you and maybe explore using your services in Ferguson services, how do they do that? Jan Southern ** 59:55 They contact they can. If they want to contact me directly, it's Jan. J, a n, at Ferguson dash alliance.com and that's F, E, R, G, U, S, O, N, Dash alliance.com and they can go to our website, which is the same, which is Ferguson dash alliance.com One thing that's very, very good about our our website is, there's a page that's called resources, and there's a lot of free advice, if you will. There's a lot of materials there that are available to family owned businesses, specifically, but any business could probably benefit from that. And so those are free for you to be able to access and look at, and there's a lot of blog information, free eBook out there, and so that's the best way to reach Ferguson Alliance. Michael Hingson ** 1:00:52 Well, cool. Well, I hope people will take all of this to heart. You certainly offered a lot of interesting and I would say, very relevant ideas and thoughts about dealing with processes and the importance of having processes. For several years at a company, my wife was in charge of document control and and not only doc control, but also keeping things secure. Of course, having the sense of humor that I have, I pointed out nobody else around the company knew how to read Braille, so what they should really do is put all the documents in Braille, then they'd be protected, but nobody. I was very disappointed. Good idea Speaker 2 ** 1:01:36 that is good idea that'll keep them safe from everybody. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 1:01:39 Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank to thank all of you for listening today. We've been doing this an hour. How much fun. It is fun. Well, I appreciate it, and love to hear from all of you about today's episode. Please feel free to reach out to me. You can email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com or go to our podcast page. Michael hingson, M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, but wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value your thoughts and your opinions, and I hope that you'll tell other people about the podcasts as well. This has been an interesting one, and we try to make them all kind of fun and interesting, so please tell others about it. And if anyone out there listening knows of anyone who ought to be a guest, Jan, including you, then please feel free to introduce us to anyone who you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. Because I believe everyone has a story to tell, and I want to get as many people to have the opportunity to tell their stories as we can. So I hope that you'll all do that and give us reviews and and stick with us. But Jan, again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun. Jan Southern ** 1:02:51 It has been a lot of fun, and I certainly thank you for inviting me. Michael Hingson ** 1:03:00 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Episode 383 – Finding An Unstoppable Voice Through Storytelling with Bill Ratner

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 28, 2025 74:37

What does it take to keep your voice—and your purpose—strong through every season of life? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I sit down with my friend Bill Ratner, one of Hollywood's most recognized voice actors, best known as Flint from GI Joe. Bill's voice has carried him through radio, animation, and narration, but what stands out most is how he's used that same voice to serve others through storytelling, teaching, and grief counseling. Together, we explore the heart behind his work—from bringing animated heroes to life to standing on The Moth stage and helping people find healing through poetry. Bill shares lessons from his own journey, including losing both parents early, finding family in unexpected places, and discovering how creative expression can rebuild what life breaks down. We also reflect on 9/11, preparedness, and the quiet confidence that comes from trusting your training—whether you're a first responder, a performer, or just navigating the unknown. This conversation isn't just about performance; it's about presence. It's about using your story, your craft, and your compassion to keep moving forward—unstoppable, one voice at a time. Highlights: 00:31 – Hear the Flint voice and what it takes to bring animated characters to life. 06:57 – Learn why an uneven college path still led to a lifelong acting career. 11:50 – Understand how GI Joe became a team and a toy phenomenon that shaped culture. 15:58 – See how comics and cartoons boosted classroom literacy when used well. 17:06 – Pick up simple ways parents can spark reading through shared stories. 19:29 – Discover how early, honest conversations about death can model resilience. 24:09 – Learn to critique ads and media like a pro to sharpen your own performance. 36:19 – Follow the pivot from radio to voiceover and why specialization pays. 47:48 – Hear practical editing approaches and accessible tools that keep shows tight. 49:38 – Learn how The Moth builds storytelling chops through timed, judged practice. 55:21 – See how poetry—and poetry therapy—support grief work with students. 59:39 – Take notes on memoir writing, emotional management, and one-person shows. About the Guest: Bill Ratner is one of America's best known voice actors and author of poetry collections Lamenting While Doing Laps in the Lake (Slow Lightning Lit 2024,) Fear of Fish (Alien Buddha Press 2021,) To Decorate a Casket (Finishing Line Press 2021,) and the non-fiction book Parenting For The Digital Age: The Truth Behind Media's Effect On Children and What To Do About It (Familius Books 2014.) He is a 9-time winner of the Moth StorySLAM, 2-time winner of Best of The Hollywood Fringe Extension Award for Solo Performance, Best of the Net Poetry Nominee 2023 (Lascaux Review,) and New Millennium "America One Year From Now" Writing Award Finalist. His writing appears in Best Small Fictions 2021 (Sonder Press,) Missouri Review (audio,) Baltimore Review, Chiron Review, Feminine Collective, and other journals. He is the voice of "Flint" in the TV cartoon G.I. Joe, "Donnell Udina" in the computer game Mass Effect, the voice of Air Disasters on Smithsonian Channel, NewsNation, and network TV affiliates across the country. He is a committee chair for his union, SAG-AFTRA, teaches Voiceovers for SAG-AFTRA Foundation, Media Awareness for Los Angeles Unified School District, and is a trained grief counsellor. Member: Actors Equity Association, Screen Actors Guild-AFTRA, National Storytelling Network • https://billratner.com • @billratner Ways to connect with Bill: https://soundcloud.com/bill-ratner https://www.instagram.com/billratner/ https://twitter.com/billratner https://www.threads.net/@billratner https://billratner.tumblr.com https://www.youtube.com/@billratner/videos https://www.facebook.com/billratner.voiceover.author https://bsky.app/profile/bilorat.bsky.social About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well on a gracious hello to you, wherever you may be, I am your host. Mike hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to have a voice actor, person, Bill Ratner, who you want to know who Bill Radnor is, go back and watch the old GI Joe cartoons and listen to the voice of Flint. Bill Ratner ** 01:42 All right. Lady Jay, you better get your battle gear on, because Cobra is on their way. And I can't bring up the Lacher threat weapon system. We got to get out of here. Yo, Joe, Michael Hingson ** 01:52 there you go. I rest my case Well, Bill, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Bill Ratner ** 02:00 We can't rest now. Michael, we've just begun. No, we've just begun. Michael Hingson ** 02:04 We got to keep going here. Well, I'm really glad that you're here. Bill is another person who we inveigled to get on unstoppable mindset with the help of Walden Hughes. And so that means we can talk about Walden all we want today. Bill just saying, oh goodness. And I got a lot to say. Let me tell you perfect, perfect. Bring it on. So we are really grateful to Walden, although I hope he's not listening. We don't want to give him a big head. But no, seriously, we're really grateful. Ah, good point. Bill Ratner ** 02:38 But his posture, oddly enough, is perfect. Michael Hingson ** 02:40 Well, there you go. What do you do? He practiced. Well, anyway, we're glad you're here. Tell us about the early bill, growing up and all that stuff. It's always fun to start a good beginning. Bill Ratner ** 02:54 Well, I was a very lucky little boy. I was born in Des Moines, Iowa in 1947 to two lovely people, professionals, both with master's degree out at University of Chicago. My mother was a social worker. My father had an MBA in business. He was managing editor of Better Homes and Gardens magazine. So I had the joy of living in a better home and living in a garden. Michael Hingson ** 03:21 My mother. How long were you in Des Moines? Bill Ratner ** 03:24 Five and a half years left before my sixth birthday. My dad got a fancy job at an ad agency in Minneapolis, and had a big brother named Pete and big handsome, curly haired boy with green eyes. And moved to Minneapolis, Minnesota, and was was brought up there. Michael Hingson ** 03:45 Wow. So you went to school there and and chased the girls and all that stuff. Bill Ratner ** 03:54 I went to school there at Blake School for Boys in Hopkins, Minnesota. Couldn't chase the girls day school, but the girls we are allowed to dance with certainly not chase. Michael was at woodhue dancing school, the Northrop girls from Northrop girls school and the Blake boys were put together in eighth grade and taught the Cha Cha Cha, the waltz, the Charleston, and we danced together, and the girls wore white gloves, and we sniffed their perfume, and we all learned how to be lovers when we were 45 Michael Hingson ** 04:37 There you are. Well, as long as you learned at some point, that's a good start. Bill Ratner ** 04:44 It's a weird generation. Michael, Michael Hingson ** 04:46 I've been to Des Moines before. I was born in Chicago, but moved out to California when I was five, but I did some work with the National Federation of the Blind in the mid 19. 1970s 1976 into 1978 so spent time at the Iowa Commission for the Blind in Des Moines, which became a top agency for the Blind in well, the late 50s into the to the 60s and so on. So Bill Ratner ** 05:15 both my parents are from Chicago. My father from the south side of Chicago, 44th and Kenzie, which was a Irish, Polish, Italian, Jewish, Ukrainian neighborhood. And my mother from Glencoe, which was a middle class suburb above Northwestern University in Evanston. Michael Hingson ** 05:34 I Where were you born? 57th and union, north, south side, no, South Bill Ratner ** 05:42 57th union is that? Is that west of Kenzie? Michael Hingson ** 05:46 You know, I don't remember the geography well enough to know, but I know that it was, I think, Mount Sinai Hospital where I was born. But it was, it's, it's, it's a pretty tough neighborhood today. So I understand, Bill Ratner ** 06:00 yeah, yeah, my it was tough, then it's tough now, Michael Hingson ** 06:03 yeah, I think it's tougher, supposedly, than it was. But we lived there for five years, and then we we moved to California, and I remember some things about Chicago. I remember walking down to the local candy store most days, and had no problem doing that. My parents were told they should shut me away at a home somewhere, because no blind child could ever grow up to amount to anything. And my parents said, You guys are you're totally wrong. And they brought me up with that attitude. So, you Bill Ratner ** 06:32 know who said that the school says school so that Michael Hingson ** 06:35 doctors doctors when they discovered I was blind with the Bill Ratner ** 06:38 kid, goodness gracious, horrified. Michael Hingson ** 06:44 Well, my parents said absolutely not, and they brought me up, and they actually worked with other parents of premature kids who became blind, and when kindergarten started in for us in in the age of four, they actually had a special kindergarten class for blind kids at the Perry School, which is where I went. And so I did that for a year, learn braille and some other things. Then we moved to California, but yeah, and I go back to Chicago every so often. And when I do nowadays, they I one of my favorite places to migrate in Chicago is Garrett Popcorn. Bill Ratner ** 07:21 Ah, yes, with caramel corn, regular corn, the Michael Hingson ** 07:25 Chicago blend, which is a mixture, yeah, the Chicago blend is cheese corn, well, as it is with caramel corn, and they put much other mozzarella on it as well. It's really good. Bill Ratner ** 07:39 Yeah, so we're on the air. Michael, what do you call your what do you call your program? Here I am your new friend, and I can't even announce your program because I don't know Michael Hingson ** 07:48 the name, unstoppable mindset. This Bill Ratner ** 07:51 is unstoppable mindset. Michael Hingson ** 07:56 We're back. Well, we're back already. We're fast. So you, you, you moved off elsewhere, out of Des Moines and all that. And where did you go to college? Bill Ratner ** 08:09 Well, this is like, why did you this is, this is a bit like talking about the Vietnam War. Looking back on my college career is like looking back on the Vietnam War series, a series of delusions and defeats. By the time I the time i for college, by the time I was applying for college, I was an orphan, orphan, having been born to fabulous parents who died too young of natural causes. So my grades in high school were my mediocre. I couldn't get into the Ivy Leagues. I got into the big 10 schools. My stepmother said, you're going to Michigan State in East Lansing because your cousin Eddie became a successful realtor. And Michigan State was known as mu u it was the most successful, largest agriculture college and university in the country. Kids from South Asia, China, Northern Europe, Southern Europe, South America all over the world came to Michigan State to study agricultural sciences, children of rich farmers all over the world and middle class farmers all over the world, and a huge police science department. Part of the campus was fenced off, and the young cadets, 1819, 20 years old, would practice on the rest of the student body, uniformed with hats and all right, excuse me, young man, we're just going to get some pizza at eight o'clock on Friday night. Stand against your car. Hands in your car. I said, Are you guys practicing again? Shut up and spread your legs. So that was that was Michigan State, and even though both my parents had master's degrees, I just found all the diversions available in the 1960s to be too interesting, and was not invited. Return after my sophomore year, and in order to flunk out of a big 10 University, and they're fine universities, all of them, you have to be either really determined or not so smart, not really capable of doing that level of study in undergraduate school. And I'd like to think that I was determined. I used to show up for my exams with a little blue book, and the only thing I would write is due to lack of knowledge, I am unable to complete this exam, sign Bill ranter and get up early and hand it in and go off. And so what was, what was left for a young man like that was the theater I'd seen the great Zero Mostel when I was 14 years old and on stage live, he looked just like my father, and he was funny, and if I Were a rich man, and that's the grade zero must tell. Yeah, and it took about five, no, it took about six, seven years to percolate inside my bread and my brain. In high school, I didn't want to do theater. The cheerleaders and guys who I had didn't happen to be friends with or doing theater. I took my girlfriends to see plays, but when I was 21 I started acting, and I've been an actor ever since. I'm a committee chair on the screen actors guild in Hollywood and Screen Actors Guild AFTRA, and work as a voice actor and collect my pensions and God bless the union. Michael Hingson ** 11:44 Well, hey, as long as it works and you're making progress, you know you're still with it, right? Bill Ratner ** 11:53 That's the that's the point. There's no accounting for taste in my business. Michael, you work for a few different broadcast entities at my age. And it's, you know, it's younger people. It's 18 to 3418 years to 34 years old is the ideal demographic for advertisers, Ford, Motor Company, Dove soap, Betty, Crocker, cake mixes and cereals, every conceivable product that sold online or sold on television and radio. This is my this is my meat, and I don't work for religion. However, if a religious organization calls, I call and say, I I'm not, not qualified or not have my divinity degree in order to sell your church to the public? Michael Hingson ** 12:46 Yeah, yeah. Well, I, I can understand that. But you, you obviously do a lot, and as we talked about, you were Flint and GI Joe, which is kind of cool. Bill Ratner ** 13:01 Flynn GI Joe was very cool. Hasbro Corporation, which was based in Providence, Rhode Island, had a huge success with GI Joe, the figure. The figure was about 11 and a half inches tall, like a Barbie, and was at first, was introduced to the public after the Korean War. There is a comic book that was that was also published about GI Joe. He was an individual figure. He was a figure, a sort of mythic cartoon figure during World War Two, GI Joe, generic American soldier, fighting man and but the Vietnam war dragged on for a long time, and the American buying public or buying kids toys got tired of GI Joe, got tired of a military figure in their household and stopped buying. And when Nixon ended the Vietnam War, or allotted to finish in 1974 Hasbro was in the tank. It's got its stock was cheap, and executives are getting nervous. And then came the Great George Lucas in Star Wars, who shrank all these action figures down from 11 and a half inches to three and a half inches, and went to China and had Chinese game and toy makers make Star Wars toys, and began to earn billions and billions dollars. And so Hasbro said, let's turn GI Joe into into a team. And the team began with flint and Lady J and Scarlett and Duke and Destro and cover commander, and grew to 85 different characters, because Hasbro and the toy maker partners could create 85 different sets of toys and action figures. So I was actor in this show and had a good time, and also a purveyor of a billion dollar industry of American toys. And the good news about these toys is I was at a conference where we signed autographs the voice actors, and we have supper with fans and so on. And I was sitting next to a 30 year old kid and his parents. And this kid was so knowledgeable about pop culture and every conceivable children's show and animated show that had ever been on the screen or on television. I turned to his mother and sort of being a wise acre, said, So ma'am, how do you feel about your 30 year old still playing with GI Joe action figures? And she said, Well, he and I both teach English in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania school system, and last year, the literacy level of my ninth graders was 50% 50% of those kids could not read in ninth grade. So I asked the principal if I could borrow my son's GI Joe, action figures, comic books and VHS tapes, recordings of the shows from TV. And he said, Sure, whatever you want to try. And so she did, and she played the video tapes, and these kids were thrilled. They'd never seen a GI Joe cartoon in class before. Passed out the comic books, let him read comics. And then she said, Okay, you guys. And passed out notebooks and pens and pencils, and said, I want you guys to make up some some shows, some GI Joe shows. And so they said, Yeah, we're ready. All right, Cobra, you better get into the barber shop, because the barber bill is no longer there and the fire engines are in the way. And wait a minute, there's a dog in the street. And so they're making this up, using their imagination, doing their schoolwork, by coming up with scenarios, imaginary fam fan fiction for GI Joe and she raised the literacy level in her classroom by 50% that year, by the end of that year, so, so that was the only story that I've ever heard about the sort of the efficacy of GI Joe, other than, you know, kids play with them. Do they? Are they shooting each other all the time? I certainly hope not. I hope not. Are they using the action figures? Do they strip their guns off and put them in a little, you know, stub over by the side and and have them do physical battle with each other, or have them hump the woods, or have them climb the stairs, or have them search the trees. Who knows what kids do? Same with same with girls and and Barbies. Barbie has been a source of fun and creativity for lots of girls, and the source of of worry and bother to a lot of parents as Michael Hingson ** 17:54 well. Well, at the same time, though, when kids start to react and relate to some of these things. It's, it's pretty cool. I mean, look what's happened with the whole Harry Potter movement and craze. Harry Potter has probably done more in the last 20 or 25 years to promote reading for kids than most anything else, and Bill Ratner ** 18:17 that's because it's such a good series of books. I read them to my daughters, yeah. And the quality of writing. She was a brilliant writer, not only just the stories and the storytelling, which is fun to watch in the movies, and you know, it's great for a parent to read. If there are any parents listening, I don't care how old your kids are. I don't care if they're 15. Offer to read to them. The 15 year old might, of course, say mom, but anybody younger than that might say either, all right, fine, which is, which means you better do it or read, read a book. To me, sure, it's fun for the parent, fun for the kid, and it makes the child a completely different kind of thinker and worker and earner. Michael Hingson ** 19:05 Well, also the people who they got to read the books for the recordings Stephen Fry and in the US here, Jim Dale did such an incredible job as well. I've, I've read the whole Harry Potter series more than once, because I just enjoy them, and I enjoy listening to the the voices. They do such a good job. Yeah. And of course, for me, one of the interesting stories that I know about Jim Dale reading Harry Potter was since it was published by Scholastic he was actually scheduled to do a reading from one of the Harry from the new Harry Potter book that was coming out in 2001 on September 11, he was going to be at Scholastic reading. And of course, that didn't happen because of of everything that did occur. So I don't know whether I'm. I'm assuming at some point a little bit later, he did, but still he was scheduled to be there and read. But it they are there. They've done so much to help promote reading, and a lot of those kinds of cartoons and so on. Have done some of that, which is, which is pretty good. So it's good to, you know, to see that continue to happen. Well, so you've written several books on poetry and so on, and I know that you you've mentioned more than once grief and loss. How come those words keep coming up? Bill Ratner ** 20:40 Well, I had an unusual childhood. Again. I mentioned earlier how, what a lucky kid I was. My parents were happy, educated, good people, not abusers. You know, I don't have a I don't have horror stories to tell about my mother or my father, until my mother grew sick with breast cancer and and it took about a year and a half or two years to die when I was seven years old. The good news is, because she was a sensitive, educated social worker, as she was actually dying, she arranged a death counseling session with me and my older brother and the Unitarian minister who was also a death counselor, and whom she was seeing to talk about, you know, what it was like to be dying of breast cancer with two young kids. And at this session, which was sort of surprised me, I was second grade, came home from school. In the living room was my mother and my brother looking a little nervous, and Dr Carl storm from the Unitarian Church, and she said, you know, Dr storm from church, but he's also my therapist. And we talk about my illness and how I feel, and we talk about how much I love you boys, and talk about how I worry about Daddy. And this is what one does when one is in crisis. That was a moment that was not traumatic for me. It's a moment I recalled hundreds of times, and one that has been a guiding light through my life. My mother's death was very difficult for my older brother, who was 13 who grew up in World War Two without without my father, it was just him and my mother when he was off in the Pacific fighting in World War Two. And then I was born after the war. And the loss of a mother in a family is like the bottom dropping out of a family. But luckily, my dad met a woman he worked with a highly placed advertising executive, which was unusual for a female in the 1950s and she became our stepmother a year later, and we had some very lovely, warm family years with her extended family and our extended family and all of us together until my brother got sick, came down with kidney disease a couple of years before kidney dialysis was invented, and a couple of years before kidney transplants were done, died at 19. Had been the captain of the swimming team at our high school, but did a year in college out in California and died on Halloween of 1960 my father was 51 years old. His eldest son had died. He had lost his wife six years earlier. He was working too hard in the advertising industry, successful man and dropped out of a heart attack 14th birthday. Gosh, I found him unconscious on the floor of our master bathroom in our house. So my life changed. I My life has taught me many, many things. It's taught me how the defense system works in trauma. It's taught me the resilience of a child. It's taught me the kindness of strangers. It's taught me the sadness of loss. Michael Hingson ** 24:09 Well, you, you seem to come through all of it pretty well. Well, thank you. A question behind that, just an observation, but, but you do seem to, you know, obviously, cope with all of it and do pretty well. So you, you've always liked to be involved in acting and so on. How did you actually end up deciding to be a voice actor? Bill Ratner ** 24:39 Well, my dad, after he was managing editor of Better Homes and Gardens magazine in Des Moines for Meredith publishing, got offered a fancy job as executive vice president of the flower and mix division for Campbell within advertising and later at General Mills Corporation. From Betty Crocker brand, and would bring me to work all the time, and would sit with me, and we'd watch the wonderful old westerns that were on prime time television, rawhide and Gunsmoke and the Virginian and sure Michael Hingson ** 25:15 and all those. Yeah, during Bill Ratner ** 25:17 the commercials, my father would make fun of the commercials. Oh, look at that guy. And number one, son, that's lousy acting. Number two, listen to that copy. It's the dumbest ad copy I've ever seen. The jingles and and then he would say, No, that's a good commercial, right there. And he wasn't always negative. He would he was just a good critic of advertising. So at a very young age, starting, you know, when we watch television, I think the first television ever, he bought us when I was five years old, I was around one of the most educated, active, funny, animated television critics I could hope to have in my life as a 56789, 1011, 12 year old. And so when I was 12, I became one of the founding members of the Brotherhood of radio stations with my friends John Waterhouse and John Barstow and Steve gray and Bill Connors in South Minneapolis. I named my five watt night kit am transmitter after my sixth grade teacher, Bob close this is wclo stereo radio. And when I was in sixth grade, I built myself a switch box, and I had a turntable and I had an intercom, and I wired my house for sound, as did all the other boys in the in the B, O, R, S, and that's brotherhood of radio stations. And we were guests on each other's shows, and we were obsessed, and we would go to the shopping malls whenever a local DJ was making an appearance and torture him and ask him dumb questions and listen obsessively to American am radio. And at the time for am radio, not FM like today, or internet on your little radio tuner, all the big old grandma and grandpa radios, the wooden ones, were AM, for amplitude modulated. You could get stations at night, once the sun went down and the later it got, the ionosphere would lift and the am radio signals would bounce higher and farther. And in Minneapolis, at age six and seven, I was able to to listen to stations out of Mexico and Texas and Chicago, and was absolutely fascinated with with what was being put out. And I would, I would switch my brother when I was about eight years old, gave me a transistor radio, which I hid under my bed covers. And at night, would turn on and listen for, who knows, hours at a time, and just tuning the dial and tuning the dial from country to rock and roll to hit parade to news to commercials to to agric agriculture reports to cow crossings in Kansas and grain harvesting and cheese making in Wisconsin, and on and on and on that made up the great medium of radio that was handing its power and its business over to television, just as I was growing As a child. Fast, fascinating transition Michael Hingson ** 28:18 and well, but as it was transitioning, how did that affect you? Bill Ratner ** 28:26 It made television the romantic, exciting, dynamic medium. It made radio seem a little limited and antiquated, and although I listened for environment and wasn't able to drag a television set under my covers. Yeah, and television became memorable with with everything from actual world war two battle footage being shown because there wasn't enough programming to 1930s Warner Brothers gangster movies with James Cagney, Edward G Michael Hingson ** 29:01 Robinson and yeah Bill Ratner ** 29:02 to all the sitcoms, Leave It to Beaver and television cartoons and on and on and on. And the most memorable elements to me were the personalities, and some of whom were invisible. Five years old, I was watching a Kids program after school, after kindergarten. We'll be back with more funny puppets, marionettes after this message and the first words that came on from an invisible voice of this D baritone voice, this commercial message will be 60 seconds long, Chrysler Dodge for 1954 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I watched hypnotized, hypnotized as a 1953 dodge drove across the screen with a happy family of four waving out the window. And at the end of the commercial, I ran into the kitchen said, Mom, mom, I know what a minute. Is, and it was said, it had suddenly come into my brain in one of those very rare and memorable moments in a person's life where your brain actually speaks to you in its own private language and says, Here is something very new and very true, that 60 seconds is in fact a minute. When someone says, See you in five minutes, they mean five times that, five times as long as that. Chrysler commercial, five times 60. That's 300 seconds. And she said, Did you learn it that that on T in kindergarten? And I said, No, I learned it from kangaroo Bob on TV, his announcer, oh, kangaroo Bob, no, but this guy was invisible. And so at five years of age, I was aware of the existence of the practice of the sound, of the magic of the seemingly unlimited access to facts, figures, products, brand names that these voices had and would say on the air in This sort of majestic, patriarchal way, Michael Hingson ** 31:21 and just think 20 years later, then you had James Earl Jones, Bill Ratner ** 31:26 the great dame. James Earl Jones, father was a star on stage at that time the 1950s James Earl Jones came of age in the 60s and became Broadway and off Broadway star. Michael Hingson ** 31:38 I got to see him in Othello. He was playing Othello. What a powerful performance. It was Bill Ratner ** 31:43 wonderful performer. Yeah, yeah. I got to see him as Big Daddy in Canada, Hot Tin Roof, ah, live and in person, he got front row seats for me and my family. Michael Hingson ** 31:53 Yeah, we weren't in the front row, but we saw it. We saw it on on Broadway, Bill Ratner ** 31:58 the closest I ever got to James Earl Jones. He and I had the same voice over agent, woman named Rita vinari of southern Barth and benare company. And I came into the agency to audition for Doritos, and I hear this magnificent voice coming from behind a closed voiceover booth, saying, with a with a Spanish accent, Doritos. I thought that's James Earl Jones. Why is he saying burritos? And he came out, and he bowed to me, nodded and smiled, and I said, hello and and the agent probably in the booth and shut the door. And she said, I said, that was James Earl Jones. What a voice. What she said, Oh, he's such a nice man. And she said, but I couldn't. I was too embarrassed. I was too afraid to stop him from saying, Doritos. And it turns out he didn't get the gig. So it is some other voice actor got it because he didn't say, had he said Doritos with the agent froze it froze up. That was as close as I ever got to did you get the gig? Oh goodness no, Michael Hingson ** 33:01 no, you didn't, huh? Oh, well, well, yeah. I mean, it was a very, it was, it was wonderful. It was James Earl Jones and Christopher Plummer played Iago. Oh, goodness, oh, I know. What a what a combination. Well, so you, you did a lot of voiceover stuff. What did you do regarding radio moving forward? Or did you just go completely out of that and you were in TV? Or did you have any opportunity Bill Ratner ** 33:33 for me to go back at age 15, my brother and father, who were big supporters of my radio. My dad would read my W, C, l, o, newsletter and need an initial, an excellent journalism son and my brother would bring his teenage friends up. He'd play the elderly brothers, man, you got an Elvis record, and I did. And you know, they were, they were big supporters for me as a 13 year old, but when I turned 14, and had lost my brother and my father, I lost my enthusiasm and put all of my radio equipment in a box intended to play with it later. Never, ever, ever did again. And when I was about 30 years old and I'd done years of acting in the theater, having a great time doing fun plays and small theaters in Minneapolis and South Dakota and and Oakland, California and San Francisco. I needed money, so I looked in the want ads and saw a job for telephone sales, and I thought, Well, I used to love the telephone. I used to make phony phone calls to people all the time. Used to call funeral homes. Hi Carson, funeral I help you. Yes, I'm calling to tell you that you have a you have a dark green slate tile. Roof, isn't that correct? Yes. Well, there's, there's a corpse on your roof. Lady for goodness sake, bring it down and we laugh and we record it and and so I thought, Well, gee, I used to have a lot of fun with the phone. And so I called the number of telephone sales and got hired to sell magazine subscriptions and dinner tickets to Union dinners and all kinds of things. And then I saw a new job at a radio station, suburban radio station out in Walnut Creek, California, a lovely Metro BART train ride. And so I got on the BART train, rode out there and walked in for the interview, and was told I was going to be selling small advertising packages on radio for the station on the phone. And so I called barber shops and beauty shops and gas stations in the area, and one guy picked up the phone and said, Wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Are you on the radio right now? And I said, No, I'm just I'm in the sales room. Well, maybe you should be. And he slams the phone on me. He didn't want to talk to me anymore. It wasn't interested in buying advertising. I thought, gee. And I told somebody at the station, and they said, Well, you want to be in the radio? And he went, Yeah, I was on the radio when I was 13. And it just so happened that an older fellow was retiring from the 10am to 2pm slot. K I S King, kiss 99 and KD FM, Pittsburgh, California. And it was a beautiful music station. It was a music station. Remember, old enough will remember music that used to play in elevators that was like violin music, the Percy faith orchestra playing a Rolling Stone song here in the elevator. Yes, well, that's exactly what we played. And it would have been harder to get a job at the local rock stations because, you know, they were popular places. And so I applied for the job, and Michael Hingson ** 37:06 could have lost your voice a lot sooner, and it would have been a lot harder if you had had to do Wolfman Jack. But that's another story. Bill Ratner ** 37:13 Yeah, I used to listen to Wolf Man Jack. I worked in a studio in Hollywood. He became a studio. Yeah, big time. Michael Hingson ** 37:22 Anyway, so you you got to work at the muzack station, got Bill Ratner ** 37:27 to work at the muzack station, and I was moving to Los Angeles to go to a bigger market, to attempt to penetrate a bigger broadcast market. And one of the sales guys, a very nice guy named Ralph pizzella said, Well, when you get to La you should study with a friend of mine down to pie Troy, he teaches voiceovers. I said, What are voice overs? He said, You know that CVS Pharmacy commercial just carted up and did 75 tags, available in San Fernando, available in San Clemente, available in Los Angeles, available in Pasadena. And I said, Yeah. He said, Well, you didn't get paid any extra. You got paid your $165 a week. The guy who did that commercial for the ad agency got paid probably 300 bucks, plus extra for the tags, that's voiceovers. And I thought, why? There's an idea, what a concept. So he gave me the name and number of old friend acquaintance of his who he'd known in radio, named Don DiPietro, alias Johnny rabbit, who worked for the Dick Clark organization, had a big rock and roll station there. He'd come to LA was doing voiceovers and teaching voiceover classes in a little second story storefront out of the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles. So I signed up for his class, and he was an experienced guy, and he liked me, and we all had fun, and I realized I was beginning to study like an actor at 1818, who goes to New York or goes to Los Angeles or Chicago or Atlanta or St Louis to act in the big theaters, and starts acting classes and realizes, oh my goodness, these people are truly professionals. I don't know how to do what they do. And so for six years, I took voice over classes, probably 4050, nights a year, and from disc jockeys, from ex show hosts, from actors, from animated cartoon voices, and put enough time in to get a degree in neurology in medical school. And worked my way up in radio in Los Angeles and had a morning show, a lovely show with a wonderful news man named Phil Reed, and we talked about things and reviewed movies and and played a lot of music. And then I realized, wait a minute, I'm earning three times the money in voiceovers as I am on the radio, and I have to get up at 430 in the morning to be on the radio. Uh, and a wonderful guy who was Johnny Carson's staff announcer named Jack angel said, You're not still on radio, are you? And I said, Well, yeah, I'm working in the morning. And Ka big, get out of there. Man, quit. Quit. And I thought, well, how can I quit? I've always wanted to be a radio announcer. And then there was another wonderful guy on the old am station, kmpc, sweet Dick Whittington. Whittington, right? And he said at a seminar that I went to at a union voice over training class, when you wake up at four in the morning and you swing your legs over the bed and your shoes hit the floor, and you put your head in your hands, and you say to yourself, I don't want to do this anymore. That's when you quit radio. Well, that hadn't happened to me. I was just getting up early to write some comedy segments and on and on and on, and then I was driving around town all day doing auditions and rented an ex girlfriend's second bedroom so that I could nap by myself during the day, when I had an hour in and I would as I would fall asleep, I'd picture myself every single day I'm in a dark voiceover studio, a microphone Is before me, a music stand is before the microphone, and on it is a piece of paper with advertising copy on it. On the other side of the large piece of glass of the recording booth are three individuals, my employers, I begin to read, and somehow the text leaps off the page, streams into my eyes, letter for letter, word for word, into a part of my back brain that I don't understand and can't describe. It is processed in my semi conscious mind with the help of voice over training and hope and faith, and comes out my mouth, goes into the microphone, is recorded in the digital recorder, and those three men, like little monkeys, lean forward and say, Wow, how do you do that? That was my daily creative visualization. Michael, that was my daily fantasy. And I had learned that from from Dale Carnegie, and I had learned that from Olympic athletes on NBC TV in the 60s and 70s, when the announcer would say, this young man you're seeing practicing his high jump is actually standing there. He's standing stationary, and the bouncing of the head is he's actually rehearsing in his mind running and running and leaping over the seven feet two inch bar and falling into the sawdust. And now he's doing it again, and you could just barely see the man nodding his head on camera at the exact rhythm that he would be running the 25 yards toward the high bar and leaping, and he raised his head up during the imaginary lead that he was visualizing, and then he actually jumped the seven foot two inches. That's how I learned about creative visualization from NBC sports on TV. Michael Hingson ** 43:23 Channel Four in Los Angeles. There you go. Well, so you you broke into voice over, and that's what you did. Bill Ratner ** 43:38 That's what I did, darn it, I ain't stopping now, there's a wonderful old actor named Bill Irwin. There two Bill Irwin's one is a younger actor in his 50s or 60s, a brilliant actor from Broadway to film and TV. There's an older William Irwin. They also named Bill Irwin, who's probably in his 90s now. And I went to a premiere of a film, and he was always showing up in these films as The senile stock broker who answers the phone upside down, or the senile board member who always asks inappropriate questions. And I went up to him and I said, you know, I see you in everything, man. I'm 85 years old. Some friends and associates of mine tell me I should slow down. I only got cast in movies and TV when I was 65 I ain't slowing down. If I tried to slow down at 85 I'd have to stop That's my philosophy. My hero is the great Don Pardo, the late great Michael Hingson ** 44:42 for Saturday Night Live and Jeopardy Bill Ratner ** 44:45 lives starring Bill Murray, Gilder Radner, and Michael Hingson ** 44:49 he died for Jeopardy before that, Bill Ratner ** 44:52 yeah, died at 92 with I picture him, whether it probably not, with a microphone and. His hand in his in his soundproof booth, in his in his garage, and I believe he lived in Arizona, although the show was aired and taped in New York, New York, right where he worked for for decades as a successful announcer. So that's the story. Michael Hingson ** 45:16 Michael. Well, you know, I miss, very frankly, some of the the the days of radio back in the 60s and 70s and so on. We had, in LA what you mentioned, Dick Whittington, Dick whittinghill on kmpc, Gary Owens, you know, so many people who were such wonderful announcers and doing some wonderful things, and radio just isn't the same anymore. It's gone. It's Bill Ratner ** 45:47 gone to Tiktok and YouTube. And the truth is, I'm not gonna whine about Tiktok or YouTube, because some of the most creative moments on camera are being done on Tiktok and YouTube by young quote influencers who hire themselves out to advertisers, everything from lipstick. You know, Speaker 1 ** 46:09 when I went to a party last night was just wild and but this makeup look, watch me apply this lip remover and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, no, I have no lip. Bill Ratner ** 46:20 You know, these are the people with the voices. These are the new voices. And then, of course, the faces. And so I would really advise before, before people who, in fact, use the internet. If you use the internet, you can't complain if you use the internet, if you go to Facebook or Instagram, or you get collect your email or Google, this or that, which most of us do, it's handy. You can't complain about tick tock, tick tock, tick tock. You can't complain about tick tock or YouTube, because it's what the younger generation is using, and it's what the younger generation advertisers and advertising executives and creators and musicians and actors are using to parade before us, as Gary Owens did, as Marlon Brando did, as Sarah Bernhardt did in the 19 so as all as you do, Michael, you're a parader. You're the head of the parade. You've been in on your own float for years. I read your your bio. I don't even know why you want to waste a minute talking to me for goodness sakes. Michael Hingson ** 47:26 You know, the one thing about podcasts that I like over radio, and I did radio at kuci for seven years when I was in school, what I really like about podcasts is they're not and this is also would be true for Tiktok and YouTube. Primarily Tiktok, I would would say it isn't as structured. So if we don't finish in 60 minutes, and we finish in 61 minutes, no one's gonna shoot us. Bill Ratner ** 47:53 Well, I beg to differ with you. Now. I'm gonna start a fight with you. Michael, yeah, we need conflict in this script. Is that it The Tick Tock is very structured. Six. No, Michael Hingson ** 48:03 no, I understand that. I'm talking about podcasts, Bill Ratner ** 48:07 though, but there's a problem. We gotta Tone It Up. We gotta pick it up. We gotta there's a lot of and I listen to what are otherwise really bright, wonderful personalities on screen, celebrities who have podcasts and the car sucks, and then I had meatballs for dinner, haha. And you know what my wife said? Why? You know? And there's just too much of that. And, Michael Hingson ** 48:32 oh, I understand, yeah. I mean, it's like, like anything, but I'm just saying that's one of the reasons I love podcasting. So it's my way of continuing what I used to do in radio and having a lot of fun doing it Bill Ratner ** 48:43 all right, let me ask you. Let me ask you a technical and editorial question. Let me ask you an artistic question. An artist, can you edit this podcast? Yeah. Are you? Do you plan to Nope. Michael Hingson ** 48:56 I think conversations are conversations, but there is a but, I mean, Bill Ratner ** 49:01 there have been starts and stops and I answer a question, and there's a long pause, and then, yeah, we can do you edit that stuff Michael Hingson ** 49:08 out. We do, we do, edit some of that out. And I have somebody that that that does a lot of it, because I'm doing more podcasts, and also I travel and speak, but I can edit. There's a program called Reaper, which is really a very sophisticated Bill Ratner ** 49:26 close up spaces. You Michael Hingson ** 49:28 can close up spaces with it, yes, but the neat thing about Reaper is that somebody has written scripts to make it incredibly accessible for blind people using screen readers. Bill Ratner ** 49:40 What does it do? What does it do? Give me the elevator pitch. Michael Hingson ** 49:46 You've seen some of the the programs that people use, like computer vision and other things to do editing of videos and so on. Yeah. Bill Ratner ** 49:55 Yeah. Even Apple. Apple edit. What is it called? Apple? Garage Band. No, that's audio. What's that Michael Hingson ** 50:03 audio? Oh, Bill Ratner ** 50:06 quick time is quick Michael Hingson ** 50:07 time. But whether it's video or audio, the point is that Reaper allows me to do all of that. I can edit audio. I can insert, I can remove pauses. I can do anything with Reaper that anyone else can do editing audio, because it's been made completely accessible. Bill Ratner ** 50:27 That's great. That's good. That's nice. Oh, it is. It's cool. Michael Hingson ** 50:31 So so if I want, I can edit this and just have my questions and then silence when you're talking. Bill Ratner ** 50:38 That might be best. Ladies and gentlemen, here's Bill Ratner, Michael Hingson ** 50:46 yep, exactly, exactly. Now you have won the moth stories. Slam, what? Tell me about my story. Slam, you've won it nine times. Bill Ratner ** 51:00 The Moth was started by a writer, a novelist who had lived in the South and moved to New York City, successful novelist named George Dawes green. And the inception of the moth, which many people listening are familiar with from the Moth Radio Hour. It was, I believe, either late 90s or early 2000s when he'd been in New York for a while and was was publishing as a fiction writer, and threw a party, and decided, instead of going to one of these dumb, boring parties or the same drinks being served and same cigarettes being smoked out in the veranda and the same orders. I'm going to ask people to bring a five minute story, a personal story, nature, a true story. You don't have to have one to get into the party, but I encourage you to. And so you know, the 3040, 50 people showed up, many of whom had stories, and they had a few drinks, and they had hors d'oeuvres. And then he said, Okay, ladies and gentlemen, take your seats. It's time for and then I picked names out of a hat, and person after person after person stood up in a very unusual setting, which was almost never done at parties. You How often do you see that happen? Suddenly, the room falls silent, and someone with permission being having been asked by the host to tell a personal story, some funny, some tragic, some complex, some embarrassing, some racy, some wild, some action filled. And afterward, the feedback he got from his friends was, this is the most amazing experience I've ever had in my life. And someone said, you need to do this. And he said, Well, you people left a lot of cigarette butts and beer cans around my apartment. And they said, well, let's do it at a coffee shop. Let's do it at a church basement. So slowly but surely, the moth storytelling, story slams, which were designed after the old poetry slams in the 50s and 60s, where they were judged contests like, like a dance contest. Everybody's familiar with dance contests? Well, there were, then came poetry contests with people singing and, you know, and singing and really energetically, really reading. There then came storytelling contests with people standing on a stage before a silent audience, telling a hopefully interesting, riveting story, beginning middle, end in five minutes. And so a coffee house was found. A monthly calendar was set up. Then came the internet. Then it was so popular standing room only that they had to open yet another and another, and today, some 20 years later, 20 some years later, from Austin, Texas to San Francisco, California to Minneapolis, Minnesota to New York City to Los Angeles. There are moth story slams available on online for you to schedule yourself to go live and in person at the moth.org as in the moth with wings. Friend of mine, I was in New York. He said, You can't believe it. This writer guy, a writer friend of mine who I had read, kind of an avant garde, strange, funny writer was was hosting something called the moth in New York, and we were texting each other. He said, Well, I want to go. The theme was show business. I was going to talk to my Uncle Bobby, who was the bell boy. And I Love Lucy. I'll tell a story. And I texted him that day. He said, Oh man, I'm so sorry. I had the day wrong. It's next week. Next week, I'm going to be back home. And so he said, Well, I think there's a moth in Los Angeles. So about 15 years ago, I searched it down and what? Went to a small Korean barbecue that had a tiny little stage that originally was for Korean musicians, and it was now being used for everything from stand up comedy to evenings of rock and roll to now moth storytelling once a month. And I think the theme was first time. And so I got up and told a silly story and didn't win first prize. They have judges that volunteer judges a table of three judges scoring, you like, at a swim meet or a track beat or, you know, and our gymnastics meet. So this is all sort of familiar territory for everybody, except it's storytelling and not high jumping or pull ups. And I kept going back. I was addicted to it. I would write a story and I'd memorize it, and I'd show up and try to make it four minutes and 50 seconds and try to make it sound like I was really telling a story and not reading from a script. And wish I wasn't, because I would throw the script away, and I knew the stories well enough. And then they created a radio show. And then I began to win slams and compete in the grand slams. And then I started submitting these 750 word, you know, two and a half page stories. Literary magazines got a few published and found a whole new way to spend my time and not make much Michael Hingson ** 56:25 money. Then you went into poetry. Bill Ratner ** 56:29 Then I got so bored with my prose writing that I took a poetry course from a wonderful guy in LA called Jack grapes, who had been an actor and a football player and come to Hollywood and did some TV, episodics and and some some episodic TV, and taught poetry. It was a poet in the schools, and I took his class of adults and got a poem published. And thought, wait a minute, these aren't even 750 words. They're like 75 words. I mean, you could write a 10,000 word poem if you want, but some people have, yeah, and it was complex, and there was so much to read and so much to learn and so much that was interesting and odd. And a daughter of a friend of mine is a poet, said, Mommy, are you going to read me one of those little word movies before I go to sleep? Michael Hingson ** 57:23 A little word movie, word movie out of the Bill Ratner ** 57:27 mouths of babes. Yeah, and so, so and I perform. You know, last night, I was in Orange County at a organization called ugly mug Cafe, and a bunch of us poets read from an anthology that was published, and we sold our books, and heard other young poets who were absolutely marvelous and and it's, you know, it's not for everybody, but it's one of the things I do. Michael Hingson ** 57:54 Well, you sent me pictures of book covers, so they're going to be in the show notes. And I hope people will will go out and get them Bill Ratner ** 58:01 cool. One of the one of the things that I did with poetry, in addition to wanting to get published and wanting to read before people, is wanting to see if there is a way. Because poetry was, was very satisfying, emotionally to me, intellectually very challenging and satisfying at times. And emotionally challenging and very satisfying at times, writing about things personal, writing about nature, writing about friends, writing about stories that I received some training from the National Association for poetry therapy. Poetry therapy is being used like art therapy, right? And have conducted some sessions and and participated in many and ended up working with eighth graders of kids who had lost someone to death in the past year of their lives. This is before covid in the public schools in Los Angeles. And so there's a lot of that kind of work that is being done by constable people, by writers, by poets, by playwrights, Michael Hingson ** 59:09 and you became a grief counselor, Bill Ratner ** 59:13 yes, and don't do that full time, because I do voiceovers full time, right? Write poetry and a grand. Am an active grandparent, but I do the occasional poetry session around around grief poetry. Michael Hingson ** 59:31 So you're a grandparent, so you've had kids and all that. Yes, sir, well, that's is your wife still with us? Yes? Bill Ratner ** 59:40 Oh, great, yeah, she's an artist and an art educator. Well, that Michael Hingson ** 59:46 so the two of you can criticize each other's works, then, just Bill Ratner ** 59:52 saying, we're actually pretty kind to each other. I Yeah, we have a lot of we have a lot of outside criticism. Them. So, yeah, you don't need to do it internally. We don't rely on it. What do you think of this although, although, more than occasionally, each of us will say, What do you think of this poem, honey? Or what do you think of this painting, honey? And my the favorite, favorite thing that my wife says that always thrills me and makes me very happy to be with her is, I'll come down and she's beginning a new work of a new piece of art for an exhibition somewhere. I'll say, what? Tell me about what's, what's going on with that, and she'll go, you know, I have no idea, but it'll tell me what to do. Michael Hingson ** 1:00:33 Yeah, it's, it's like a lot of authors talk about the fact that their characters write the stories right, which, which makes a lot of sense. So with all that you've done, are you writing a memoir? By any chance, I Bill Ratner ** 1:00:46 am writing a memoir, and writing has been interesting. I've been doing it for many years. I got it was my graduate thesis from University of California Riverside Palm Desert. Michael Hingson ** 1:00:57 My wife was a UC Riverside graduate. Oh, hi. Well, they Bill Ratner ** 1:01:01 have a low residency program where you go for 10 days in January, 10 days in June. The rest of it's online, which a lot of universities are doing, low residency programs for people who work and I got an MFA in creative writing nonfiction, had a book called parenting for the digital age, the truth about media's effect on children. And was halfway through it, the publisher liked it, but they said you got to double the length. So I went back to school to try to figure out how to double the length. And was was able to do it, and decided to move on to personal memoir and personal storytelling, such as goes on at the moth but a little more personal than that. Some of the material that I was reading in the memoir section of a bookstore was very, very personal and was very helpful to read about people who've gone through particular issues in their childhood. Mine not being physical abuse or sexual abuse, mine being death and loss, which is different. And so that became a focus of my graduate thesis, and many people were urging me to write a memoir. Someone said, you need to do a one man show. So I entered the Hollywood fringe and did a one man show and got good reviews and had a good time and did another one man show the next year and and so on. So But writing memoir as anybody knows, and they're probably listeners who are either taking memoir courses online or who may be actively writing memoirs or short memoir pieces, as everybody knows it, can put you through moods from absolutely ecstatic, oh my gosh, I got this done. I got this story told, and someone liked it, to oh my gosh, I'm so depressed I don't understand why. Oh, wait a minute, I was writing about such and such today. Yeah. So that's the challenge for the memoir is for the personal storyteller, it's also, you know, and it's more of a challenge than it is for the reader, unless it's bad writing and the reader can't stand that. For me as a reader, I'm fascinated by people's difficult stories, if they're well Michael Hingson ** 1:03:24 told well, I know that when in 2002 I was advised to write a book about the World Trade Center experiences and all, and it took eight years to kind of pull it all together. And then I met a woman who actually I collaborated with, Susie Florey, and we wrote thunder dog. And her agent became my agent, who loved the proposal that we sent and actually got a contract within a week. So thunder dog came out in 2011 was a New York Times bestseller, and very blessed by that, and we're working toward the day that it will become a movie still, but it'll happen. And then I wrote a children's version of it, well, not a children's version of the book, but a children's book about me growing up in Roselle, growing up the guide dog who was with me in the World Trade Center, and that's been on Amazon. We self published it. Then last year, we published a new book called Live like a guide dog, which is all about controlling fear and teaching people lessons that I learned prior to September 11. That helped me focus and remain calm. Bill Ratner ** 1:04:23 What happened to you on September 11, Michael Hingson ** 1:04:27 I was in the World Trade Center. I worked on the 78th floor of Tower One. Bill Ratner ** 1:04:32 And what happened? I mean, what happened to you? Michael Hingson ** 1:04:36 Um, nothing that day. I mean, well, I got out. How did you get out? Down the stairs? That was the only way to go. So, so the real story is not doing it, but why it worked. And the real issue is that I spent a lot of time when I first went into the World Trade Center, learning all I could about what to do in an emergency, talking to police, port authorities. Security people, emergency preparedness people, and also just walking around the world trade center and learning the whole place, because I ran an office for a company, and I wasn't going to rely on someone else to, like, lead me around if we're going to go to lunch somewhere and take people out before we negotiated contracts. So I needed to know all of that, and I learned all I could, also realizing that if there ever was an emergency, I might be the only one in the office, or we might be in an area where people couldn't read the signs to know what to do anyway. And so I had to take the responsibility of learning all that, which I did. And then when the planes hit 18 floors above us on the other side of the building, we get we had some guests in the office. Got them out, and then another colleague, who was in from our corporate office, and I and my guide dog, Roselle, went to the stairs, and we started down. And Bill Ratner ** 1:05:54 so, so what floor did the plane strike? Michael Hingson ** 1:05:58 It struck and the NOR and the North Tower, between floors 93 and 99 so I just say 96 okay, and you were 20 floors down, 78 floors 78 so we were 18 floors below, and Bill Ratner ** 1:06:09 at the moment of impact, what did you think? Michael Hingson ** 1:06:13 Had no idea we heard a muffled kind of explosion, because the plane hit on the other side of the building, 18 floors above us. There was no way to know what was going on. Did you feel? Did you feel? Oh, the building literally tipped, probably about 20 feet. It kept tipping. And then we actually said goodbye to each other, and then the building came back upright. And then we went, Bill Ratner ** 1:06:34 really you so you thought you were going to die? Michael Hingson ** 1:06:38 David, my colleague who was with me, as I said, he was from our California office, and he was there to help with some seminars we were going to be doing. We actually were saying goodbye to each other because we thought we were about to take a 78 floor plunge to the street, when the building stopped tipping and it came back. Designed to do that by the architect. It was designed to do that, which is the point, the point. Bill Ratner ** 1:07:02 Goodness, gracious. And then did you know how to get to the stairway? Michael Hingson ** 1:07:04 Oh, absolutely. And did you do it with your friend? Yeah, the first thing we did, the first thing we did is I got him to get we had some guests, and I said, get him to the stairs. Don't let him take the elevators, because I knew he had seen fire above us, but that's all we knew. And but I said, don't take the elevators. Don't let them take elevators. Get them to the stairs and then come back and we'll leave. So he did all that, and then he came back, and we went to the stairs and started down. Bill Ratner ** 1:07:33 Wow. Could you smell anything? Michael Hingson ** 1:07:36 We smelled burning jet fuel fumes on the way down. And that's how we figured out an airplane must have hit the building, but we had no idea what happened. We didn't know what happened until the until both towers had collapsed, and I actually talked to my wife, and she's the one who told us how to aircraft have been crashed into the towers, one into the Pentagon, and a fourth, at that time, was still missing over Pennsylvania. Wow. So you'll have to go pick up a copy of thunder dog. Goodness. Good. Thunder dog. The name of the book is Thunder dog, and the book I wrote last year is called Live like a guide dog. It's le

america god tv american new york director university amazon fear california live tiktok texas canada halloween children new york city chicago english google hollywood kids china apple man los angeles discover voice olympic games mexico stand star wars san francisco new york times friend dj chinese arizona boys speaker spanish er gardens italian minnesota pennsylvania south write mom hands storytelling jewish wisconsin irish hospitals security world war ii harry potter mba ladies iowa nbc broadway vietnam union quit blind kansas pittsburgh offer daddy mine poetry minneapolis ambassadors thunder rolling stones saturday night live south america stitcher korean elvis pacific goodness campbell oakland rock and roll ukrainian warner bros ebooks providence cafe unstoppable designed national association polish pentagon rhode island jeopardy charleston vhs shut bart michigan state university south dakota golden age dove roof orange county vietnam war st louis northwestern university mfa passed brotherhood bill murray ivy league cobra slam hopkins flint rutgers university pasadena literary mass effect world trade center beaver hasbro des moines moth sag aftra doritos south asia reaper dale carnegie gi joe percy james earl jones korean war marlon brando walden american red cross garageband barth johnny carson big daddy evanston tick tock scholastic barbies othello stephen fry christopher plummer san fernando valley crocker northern europe better homes east lansing national federation virginians lacher dick clark uc riverside san fernando whittington san clemente iago mount sinai hospital gunsmoke new millennium unitarian voiceovers newsnation southern europe walnut creek nbc tv cha cha cha michael h orson wells destro los angeles unified school district james cagney sarah bernhardt northrop hot tin roof glencoe wolfman jack moth storyslam lady j exxon mobile north tower chief vision officer south minneapolis federal express scripps college smithsonian channel cvs pharmacy bill irwin dick powell moth radio hour zero mostel jim dale gary owens missouri review unitarian church dick whittington michael hingson tone it up motor company best small fictions don pardo uncle bobby tower one solo performance accessibe i yeah national storytelling network air disasters american humane association feminine collective william irwin bill ratner thunder dog phil reed hero dog awards lascaux review

Drei Megatrends, ein Problem: Wie Deutschland auf Alterung, Deindustrialisierung und Klimawandel reagieren muss

deutschland probleme muss wandel drei klimawandel energiewende megatrends ein problem reagieren strukturwandel michael h alterung wie deutschland problem wie

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 24, 2025 25:25

Deutschland steht vor einer wirtschaftlichen Zeitenwende: Globalisierungsende, Energiewende und demografischer Wandel treffen zugleich aufeinander. Politische Antworten auf diese Probleme bleiben aber aus, finden Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther.

Episode 381 – Unstoppable Zuzu: Keeping It's a Wonderful Life Alive

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 21, 2025 68:42

In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, Michael Hingson welcomes Karolyn Grimes, best known for her unforgettable role as Zuzu Bailey in Frank Capra's timeless classic It's a Wonderful Life. At 85, Karolyn brings not just cherished memories from Hollywood's Golden Age but profound lessons in faith, resilience, and gratitude that still inspire today. She shares vivid behind-the-scenes stories of working with Jimmy Stewart, Cary Grant, John Wayne, and Maureen O'Hara—moments that shaped her life long after the cameras stopped rolling. From learning her lines at six years old to celebrating a surprise birthday on the set of Rio Grande, Karolyn offers a heartfelt glimpse into the wonder and warmth of old Hollywood. But her story reaches far beyond fame. After losing both parents by age fifteen and later enduring the heartbreak of losing her husband and son, Karolyn rediscovered purpose through the enduring message of It's a Wonderful Life. Today, she travels to Seneca Falls, New York—the real-life Bedford Falls—attends festivals, supports the Zuzu House foundation, and co-hosts the Zuzu All Grown Up podcast, continuing to spread the film's message of hope. Michael and Karolyn also share exciting plans for a Richard Diamond, Private Detective radio drama at next year's REPS showcase. Filled with nostalgia, laughter, and heart, this episode reminds us that no matter the season—or the challenges— “It truly is a wonderful life.” Highlights: 01:24 – Hear how Karolyn's early music and elocution lessons opened doors to a Hollywood career at just six years old. 07:50 – Discover how losing both parents by age fifteen changed her path and led her to a quieter life in Missouri. 14:51 – Learn what it was like to work under Frank Capra's direction and how he brought out the best in young actors. 19:12 – Feel the kindness of Jimmy Stewart as Karolyn recalls a moment when he turned a mistake into encouragement. 27:20 – Relive her birthday surprise on the set of Rio Grande with John Wayne and a cake she'll never forget. 31:29 – Get a candid glimpse of Maureen O'Hara's fiery personality and how it lit up the screen. 47:23 – Walk with Karolyn through Seneca Falls, New York—the real-life inspiration for Bedford Falls—and its annual It's a Wonderful Life festival. 58:27 – See how she keeps the film's spirit alive today through public appearances, the Zuzu House foundation, and her Zuzu All Grown Up podcast. About the Guest: Karolyn Grimes is an American actress best remembered for her role as Zuzu Bailey in Frank Capra's timeless film It's a Wonderful Life (1946), where she delivered one of cinema's most cherished lines: “Every time a bell rings, an angel gets his wings.” Born in Hollywood, California, in 1940, Grimes began acting as an infant and appeared in 16 films during her childhood, including The Bishop's Wife (1947). Her early career placed her alongside Hollywood legends like James Stewart, Donna Reed, Loretta Young, and David Niven. She later earned honors such as a star on the Missouri Walk of Fame and the Edwin P. Hubble Medal of Initiative for her contributions to film and culture. Grimes' personal story is one of remarkable endurance. Orphaned by age 15, she was sent from Hollywood to rural Missouri to live with strict relatives, yet she persevered and eventually became a medical technologist. Life brought both love and heartbreak—two marriages, seven children, and the tragic loss of her youngest son and husband. In the 1980s, renewed popularity of It's a Wonderful Life reconnected her with fans and co-stars, inspiring her to embrace the film's message of hope. Today, she travels widely to share her memories of the movie, appears annually at the Seneca Falls celebration that inspired Bedford Falls, and continues to spread its enduring message that every life truly matters. Ways to connect with Karolyn: podcast site, www.zuzunetwork.com Facebook page Karolyn Grimes, www.zuzu.net About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, a gracious hello to you, wherever you happen to be today, I am your host, Mike or Michael. I don't really care which hingson and you are listening to or watching unstoppable mindset. Today, we get a chance to chat with someone who, well, you may or may not know who she is, you will probably by the time we're done, because I'm going to give you a clue. Probably one of the most famous lines that she ever spoke was, whenever a bell rings, an angel gets its wings. And you are right, if you guessed it, you get to meet Zuzu or Karolyn Grimes. Today, I met Karolyn a few years ago when we were both involved in doing recreations of old radio shows with the radio enthusiasts of Puget Sound, and we have had the opportunity to chat and do things together like other recreations ever since. I'm going to miss, unfortunately, the one in September, because I'm going to be off elsewhere in Texas doing a speech. But what do you do anyway? Karolyn or Zuzu, whichever you prefer, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Karolyn Grimes ** 02:35 I'm so disappointed I don't get to see your dog. Michael Hingson ** 02:40 Oh, next time. Okay, see we and you know that's the thing Carolyn is, just like everyone else, it's always all about the dog. Forget me. That's okay. It's okay. He loves it. Karolyn Grimes ** 02:58 Well, I'm sorry you're not coming. Because you know what, I really am going to do a fantastic part that I love, and that's playing Loretta Young's part in the bishop's wife, the bishop's wife, right? Yes, and you're going to miss it. Well, I Michael Hingson ** 03:14 will probably try to at least listen on the internet and and hear it. I think that'll be fun. It's a it's a great part. Well, you were in the bishop's wife originally, weren't you? Karolyn Grimes ** 03:25 Yes, I was, who did? Who did you play? I played Little Debbie, who was David Nevin and Loretta Young's little girl, and Cary Grant was an angel who came down to straighten my dad out, Michael Hingson ** 03:43 and at the end he straightened him out, but there was never any memory of him being there. Was there. Karolyn Grimes ** 03:50 That's right, he was erased, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 03:56 oh, you know, it's all about doing it, and not about him. So it's okay. I think I thought Cary Grant did a great job. I really always was wonderful, wonderful. What was he like to work with? And what was David Nevin like to work with, much less Loretta Young? Karolyn Grimes ** 04:13 Well, at the beginning of the movie, they told me not to go near David Nevin. Don't bother him. So I never did. I just had the feeling he didn't like kids or something, I don't know. But Loretta Young was cordial and nice, but she pretty much sat in her chair and studied the script most of the time, so I didn't really get to visit with her all that much, but boy, Cary Grant was hands on. Oh, he was great. He there was a lot of snow in the movie, and there was an ice skating scene, and there was actually an ice rink on our stage. So every day at lunch, he would come and get me and. And he pulled me around on a sled while he practiced ice skating. And that was so much fun, Michael Hingson ** 05:08 cool. And that was all in Hollywood, right? 05:11 Oh, yes, Michael Hingson ** 05:15 I, I always found it interesting. We went to see the Rockettes a couple of times at Radio City Music Hall in New York. And it was interesting to see their, quote, ice skating rink, which was, was a very smooth floor and and they could raise it and lower it and all sorts of things. It was. It was kind of fascinating to actually know about that. And I actually got a chance to go look at it was kind of pretty interesting. Karolyn Grimes ** 05:45 Can you imagine, they actually made a skating rink on stage. I mean, you know, yeah, before miracles. Michael Hingson ** 05:55 Well, tell us a little bit about, kind of, maybe the early Karolyn growing up, and, you know, how things got started and and what you did a little bit? Well, my Karolyn Grimes ** 06:04 mother gave me all kinds of lessons. I was an only child, and so when I was about, I guess, three, she started me on the piano, the violin, dancing, which never took singing, and even elocution, diction, everything I had lessons coming out my eyeballs and I played the violin and piano. Michael Hingson ** 06:30 So did you ever? Did you ever compete with Jack Benny playing the violin? Not hardly just checking. Karolyn Grimes ** 06:37 I did win a scholarship, though, to go to college on my violin when I was in high school. So, you know, I I played it for a long time, but I didn't play the piano, just I stuck with the violin and I did singing. I did a lot of vocal stuff when I got older, but when I was little, she gave me all these lessons and and I can remember saying, Well, I really don't want to go to school today if I stay at home and I practice my elocution, or I practice this, or practice my piano or whatever, well, then could I stay home and she let me stay home from school so I would practice. Michael Hingson ** 07:21 Yeah. Did you ever Karolyn Grimes ** 07:23 go ahead? That's fine, that's all. Michael Hingson ** 07:26 Did you ever ask her or ever learn why she was so adamant that you took all these kinds of lessons when you were young and so on, as opposed to just going to school and so on. Well, Karolyn Grimes ** 07:38 unfortunately, she started getting sick when I was eight years old. And, you know, I was too young to think about asking questions like that, you know. And then she died when I was 14. So that was kind of the end of my career, for sure. Michael Hingson ** 07:55 Well, yeah, and sort of it was but, but you never really did learn why she was so so steadfast in her beliefs that you had to take all of those lessons. Karolyn Grimes ** 08:07 I had no idea, because when she started getting sick, she had early onset Alzheimer's, and so, you know she wasn't, you couldn't communicate. Michael Hingson ** 08:18 Really, yeah, yeah. And it was only when you were old enough that that started. So, yeah, you really couldn't get a lot of information and do a lot of communicating. I understand that. No, and you didn't have much time after that to really talk to your father about it either. No, I didn't. Karolyn Grimes ** 08:41 He died a year after she did. And I was 15, and the court in Hollywood shipped me to a little town in Missouri. I think there were 700 people in the town, or something like that. Yeah. So it's quite a culture shock, but it was the best thing that ever happened to me. Get me out of Hollywood was great. Michael Hingson ** 09:01 So what did you do then? So you were now 15, and they sent you off to Missouri. Why Missouri? Karolyn Grimes ** 09:09 Well, those were the only people who volunteered to take me. I had a lot of people in LA, where I lived, who would have taken me, but my father didn't leave a will. So when I asked the judge, I said, Do I have any say at all about who I go to live with? And he said, whatever you want is like a drop in the bucket. So needless to say, my mean aunt and uncle took me back to Missouri, in a little town, but it was like, I say the best thing ever happened to me, because they're real people. They weren't phony. They were they were serious and and they were loving and kind, and they realized I was in a. Horrible home situation. So they really my teachers and merchants, everybody knew, and they really made up for that. They made my life livable and that I will never forget it, and I will always love that town, because Michael Hingson ** 10:19 what town was it? Osceola, Karolyn Grimes ** 10:21 Missouri. Oh, Osceola. Okay, I've heard of it. 800 people in there or something. Michael Hingson ** 10:27 You said they were your mean aunt and uncle. Why did you Why do you call them mean? Karolyn Grimes ** 10:34 My uncle wasn't mean, but he was beaten down by his wife. She would her. Her best ploy would be to if I did something wrong, she would punish other people. And that was worse than punishing you. Yeah. So it was very, very hard to not do something wrong, because I kind of seemed like I did all the time. Michael Hingson ** 11:05 Yeah, you didn't know what the rules were. No, yeah, that that made it, made it very tough. So what did you do once you went back there? I assume you went to, you finished school. Karolyn Grimes ** 11:21 Yes, I finished school, and then I went to college. Where did you go? Well, it was called Central Missouri State at that time, and it was the home of the mules. And of course, my major was music, so that was what I did, mostly with my life, but I ended up going into science and I became medical technologist. Michael Hingson ** 11:46 Uh huh, well, the mules, so you majored in music. Did you get any advanced degree or just get a bachelor's? Karolyn Grimes ** 11:57 No, okay, I changed everything and decided that I need to make money instead, to survive, Michael Hingson ** 12:05 yeah, you got to do some of that kind of stuff. Yeah, you do. It's one of those, those things that happens. So what did you do after college? Karolyn Grimes ** 12:13 I got a job working for medical office in was kind of a clinic in Kansas City, Missouri, okay? And I spent probably 15 years there, maybe, maybe more I remember for sure, and that's, that's what I did. Then after that, I retired and raised a bunch of kids. Michael Hingson ** 12:42 Well, that's a worthwhile endeavor. 12:46 It's stressful. Michael Hingson ** 12:50 Well, you know, but as long as they don't call you mean, then that probably counts for something. Karolyn Grimes ** 12:56 Yeah, they didn't call me mean. Well, Michael Hingson ** 13:00 there you are. So you you did all of your your acting and movies and so on, kind of at a younger age, you didn't go back into doing any of that. No, I Karolyn Grimes ** 13:11 didn't, but I did get active in the theater scene in the Kansas City area. So I did quite a few plays, and I had a really good time doing that. Okay, only problem with that is you have to memorize so much. Michael Hingson ** 13:27 Yeah, you can't use cue cards and you can't use a script, Karolyn Grimes ** 13:30 yeah? So I tried to work and do that, yeah, it's kind of tough, but I did. I the last one I did. I think I was 40 something, but it was fun. I loved it. Michael Hingson ** 13:44 So what, what kind of maybe famous plays were you in? Karolyn Grimes ** 13:49 Not famous? They were small ones. And honestly, I can't even remember what they were. I it's in my mind, one, the last one was musical, and it was kind of a Western. I can't remember what it was to save my soul, but that's, that's privilege of getting old. Michael Hingson ** 14:09 Yeah, you never know. You might remember one of these days, Karolyn Grimes ** 14:14 yeah, oh, I will, I'm sure, probably about an hour from now. Michael Hingson ** 14:18 Yeah. Well, so going back earlier, what was the first movie you were in Karolyn Grimes ** 14:27 that night with you, and that starred, Oh, see, there goes. My mind again. It was an opera singer. Can't think of Suzanne, York, oh, okay, and it had Irene Ryan, who was in the hillbillies. She was a maid. And it was, it was a Christmas scene, or it was section of the movie where I was one of. Five orphans that were sent. This opera singer wanted us to give us a Christmas night. We were from an orphanage, and so she had us come. We were going to spend the night, and she had presents for us and all that sort of thing. And the first thing I did was break an ornament on the Christmas tree. Oh, dear. Ah, so the kids got mad at me, because they knew we were going to be sent back to the orphanage. But anyway, in the end, she held me on her lap and sang a lullaby to me, and I will always remember that. Michael Hingson ** 15:39 Yeah, you mentioned Irene, Ryan, granny, which was, yeah, she was in. She played a maid. What a character she 15:46 was. She was a maid. Michael Hingson ** 15:50 Then what did you do after that movie? How old were you for that movie? I was four. You're four. So you do remember it sort of, yeah. Karolyn Grimes ** 16:01 Just don't remember names particularly. I mean, yeah, but you were really funny about it that the there was one agent, pretty much, that had all the kids in her stable that worked in the movies back then. It was an easy thing, and she had Jimmy Hawkins, who was Tommy, and it's a wonderful life. And she also had his older brother, and his older brother was in that particular movie with me, so it was kind of a family affair all every time you went to an audition or an interview you saw the same kids over and over. Michael Hingson ** 16:49 Well, how did you end up then being in It's a Wonderful Life. What? What did they what does it think and decide that you were the person for Karolyn Grimes ** 17:01 it. Well, nothing really special. You know, I went on the interview back in the day. They didn't have what they do today. They had interviews where you went, and you had a one on one situation. Maybe five or six us girls would go to the interview, and then they'd bring another batch in, and that's kind of how it went. And most of us, as I say, had the same agent, so we, my mother took me to the interview, to the and it's like, it's not like an audition, it's an interview, and you actually go in and talk to casting director. And you know, you know, do what they tell you to do. So in this particular interview, there was a little girl who accidentally spilled some coffee on my dress. Her mother's coffee on my dress, because so back then, we all wore dresses, and I just didn't think a thing about it didn't bother me to have a dirty dress. I just I went in and did my interview. When I went in there, I meant Frank Capra was in, ah, and he interviewed and and cast every single person in that film, even the extras. That's how precise he was. But I went in there, and I remember he asked me how I would look, how I would act if I lost my dog and he died. I gave him my spiel, all with a dirty dress, but didn't bother me a bit. Came out, and then when we were leaving, I heard my mother mentioned to one of the other mothers that she felt like that, that girl's mother had had her spilling on purpose so they would intimidate me. But I didn't know it. I didn't realize it, and didn't bother me a bit. Michael Hingson ** 19:11 What did you say when Frank Capra asked me that question? Do you remember? Karolyn Grimes ** 19:16 Well, I I didn't say anything. Michael Hingson ** 19:20 I just looked, no, I mean, about the dog? Karolyn Grimes ** 19:22 Well, I just looked, oh, you know, yeah, squeezed up kind of teared, and was unhand picked. That was, you know, there was no line involved. It was just that, well, she must ask the other lines, but I don't remember, I just remember that. Michael Hingson ** 19:46 So what was he like to work with? Karolyn Grimes ** 19:49 He was wonderful, absolutely wonderful. He would get down on his knees so that he could communicate with those kids. And I. I thought that was really great, and I'm sure you got a lot more out of us by doing that. Rather than looking down on us and telling us what he wanted Michael Hingson ** 20:09 us to do, he made you feel like a part of it all. Karolyn Grimes ** 20:13 Yes, he did. He gave us a lot of power that way. Michael Hingson ** 20:17 Yeah, and what was it like working with Jimmy Stewart and Donna Reed. Karolyn Grimes ** 20:22 Well, you know, I didn't have any scenes with Donna Reed, except that being the movie, that's true. I didn't have any interaction with her. I had no lines. I don't even remember Donna Reed, but he was my focal point. Jimmy Stewart was fabulous. He was kind, considerate, and I fluffed a line in the pedal scene, and he said that, that's all right, Carolyn, you'll get it right next time. And it was things like that, you know, that made a difference between, if you messed up online, where they would get aggravated with you, and then you probably mess it up again. But he did the right thing. He made me not feel bad about it, and encouraged me to do it again. Michael Hingson ** 21:17 It's, it's interesting, and it, it's a great lesson to you know, to point out that when when people help empower and they aren't negative and are encouraging no matter what you're doing, that counts for a lot. And I I find that when I encounter people who just decide they're going to be mean because they got to boss you around and do all sorts of obnoxious things to try to intimidate you and so on. In the long run, that is just so unproductive, it seems to me. Karolyn Grimes ** 21:49 Yes, I agree. I don't see what it accomplishes. Michael Hingson ** 21:53 Yeah, so I can appreciate what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense. Well, I'm glad, and I always thought that Jimmy Stewart was that kind of a person, both he and Cary Grant both seemed sensitive, really concerned about people succeeding. They weren't jerks. Karolyn Grimes ** 22:13 No, they weren't. And caught up with him later in life, he was getting calls from a lot of people about whatever happened to that little girl. And so he had one of his secretaries Call Me and find Me and and he called me and we had chat. And here I am in Missouri. He's in Hollywood. That was pretty cool when you're 40 years old. When that was the first year I ever saw the movie after I talked to him. So that was kind of how it went. But then after that, I met him in New York at a function, and we spent some time together, and he was delightful, so kind, so Michael Hingson ** 23:01 generous. I remember when I first saw part of It's a Wonderful Life. It was back in the day when there was regular television. Then there was UHF, which was everything above, basically channel 13. And you had to have special at that time receivers to receive it. And one day I was, I just come home from high school, from classes, and I turned on the television, and it was a UHF channel, and I started scrolling across, and all of a sudden I heard Jimmy Stewart's voice, and I went, What's that? And it took me a couple of minutes of listening to it to figure out what the movie was, because I had heard about it enough that I I figured it out, but I listened to about half the movie, and then later I found the whole movie and watched it. And of course, also since then, I have had the opportunity to listen to radio broadcasts of it, like Lux radio theater and so on, where, where they did it. But I remember it well, yes, so did you do much of anything in in radio? Karolyn Grimes ** 24:13 Then? Not really, not really. I can remember being on the radio for the opening night of the bishop's club. That was really exciting. Michael Hingson ** 24:28 It's a lot of interesting movies back then. You know, It's a Wonderful Life The Bishop's wife in 1947 also, there was Miracle on 34th Street that people thought was never going to go anywhere. And it and also, Karolyn Grimes ** 24:43 I'm sorry, still alive today, it Michael Hingson ** 24:46 is and, and it's a classic. All three of them are classics and, and should be, right? So what did you do after the bishop's wife, from movie standpoint? Karolyn Grimes ** 24:59 Oh. Um, I think I really don't remember exactly, but I did some movies that were westerns, and I really liked those. They were really fun. I did Rio Grande John Wayne and off Scott and I did honey child with Judy Canova. Michael Hingson ** 25:28 I'll bet that was a 25:29 was a hoot. It was a hoot. What Michael Hingson ** 25:33 was Judy Canova like? Karolyn Grimes ** 25:36 Well, she was really nice. I played her niece, and I lived with her, and she was very nice. It's like that this particular movie, her mother had just died, so she was kind of not all happy, herself, still mourning, but she was very nice and considerate. And you know, she's the one that's saying, I'll be coming around when I come. Yeah, she'll be coming around the corner when she comes. That was what I always remembered her for, yeah. Michael Hingson ** 26:15 Oh, she was always quite the character. Karolyn Grimes ** 26:18 Oh, she was and she though she had that voice that was unusual. Michael Hingson ** 26:27 So what? What did you do? What was your role in Rio Grande with John Wayne and marine O'Hara? Karolyn Grimes ** 26:39 I was the school teacher's daughter, and we lived on a fort. We were in Moab, you daughter? Film it. Yeah, we lived on a fort. And I, my uncle was Victor McLachlan. And so the Indians came and raided us, and he they saved us and put us in a wagon to send us off to be safe. But the Indians got us and killed my mom and put us in the top of a Chapel Church, and that's where we were. And so they the three of the the people, I can't think of their names again. That's problem for me names, but I'll think of them eventually. They rescued us kids, and Victor McLachlan came to get me when the Calvary had gotten there, and I'm on a plat, kind of a platform, ringing the bell. I was ringing a bell throughout this movie, and I hit a bell. I hit Harry Carey Junior over the head with a bell. I always had a bell, so I'm ringing this giant bell to say it's okay for the Calgary to come in. And Vic McLachlan had to pull me off the platform and get me out the door and into a wagon to be rescued, because all his kids were being rescued. And so when he pulled me off that platform, I had this little dress on, and I got a big bad splinter in my bottom. Oh, gosh, it was horrible. It hurt so bad I was going to say, I bet it did. You can never show anything like that. So I did not show it. I just jumped off into his arms, and that was it. Michael Hingson ** 28:44 Well, I would presume they eventually got the splitter out. Well, my Karolyn Grimes ** 28:48 mom did, yeah, those things happen. Michael Hingson ** 28:53 So what was it like working with John Wayne and Marie? No Hara, what both, what characters they are? Oh, Karolyn Grimes ** 29:02 yeah. Well, John Wayne was just a booming voice. Yeah, he was a huge figure. He I didn't really have any relationship with him, but I had a birthday in the Fourth of July while I was there, ah, and the Korean flicked. Had just broken out. It was 1950 and the government had commandeered airplanes, so John Wayne managed to have airplane bring in a bunch of supplies, and it was one of them was a big, giant birthday cake for me, and bunch of fireworks. He had $300 worth of fireworks, and so we he threw me a party out on Colorado River bluffs, and we had glass. Do is really so funny. Said Happy birthday Little Miss Carolyn and Pat way and his son, who's my age, was out there too. He was he and Michael on school break for summer, and so they were part of the film. He was my age, so we hung around a lot. We were kind of upset because all we got to do with all those fireworks, two little sparklers, what Michael Hingson ** 30:32 was marine O'Hara like? Karolyn Grimes ** 30:38 I guess maybe she and Mr. Ford didn't get along very well, and she had a temper. He had a Michael Hingson ** 30:47 temper, an Irish temper, yes, yes. Karolyn Grimes ** 30:50 And I saw a lot of that. And one particular time we were in, they had a limo that would take us from the motel to the set which was on the Colorado River, and it was on this person's ranch. So we go down this terribly dangerous road to go to his ranch. At least it was dangerous to me. I was scared, definitely going to Fall River, yeah, because it was right on the edge. But she was angry, and we were in this limo, and she was with her hairdresser. They were in the front row, and my mother and I were in the back of the limo. She was cursing and carrying on about mister Ford, and I didn't pay any attention to it. And so her hairdresser said, Miss O'Hara, there's, there's a little girl in the back. She just kept right on going. But when she said that, I started paying attention what she was in and she was just a string of curses. It was so bad, she was so angry, and it was so funny. So she didn't, it didn't bother her to swear in front of the little child. Michael Hingson ** 32:14 Just think how much language and how much elocution you learned, huh? Oh no, I did because, oh Karolyn Grimes ** 32:19 yeah, potential, until she said that, then I listened. Michael Hingson ** 32:25 Just rounded out your vocabulary. Oh, Karolyn Grimes ** 32:28 yes, I've never heard words like that, and Michael Hingson ** 32:32 probably never did again, no, than the ones you used, but, you know, but still. Oh, that's, that's pretty cool, though. So, did you ever have any kind of an opportunity to reunite and be with all of the Bailey family again from the movie? Karolyn Grimes ** 32:53 Yes, in 1993 or four? Wow. It was quite a while, 60 years later, yeah, um, I had already been in contact with little Tommy. We've been conversing on a phone for about five years, but the target tour had, It's a Wonderful Life is a sort of a theme in their stores that year, and so they thought it would be a good ploy to have a reunion with the Bailey kids. So they brought us all together and put us on a tour. And that was when we all met up again, and I was so excited to do it, and that's the first time I actually saw people's response to this movie. We were in an autographed line at some of the targets that we went to, and people would come through the line and they share their stories about how the movie had affected their lives, and I was so impressed. I well, I just couldn't forget it. And so from that time forward, I became very enamored of sharing messages with other people, and I started doing various appearances and things like that. Michael Hingson ** 34:23 Yeah. So what other kinds of appearances have you done? Karolyn Grimes ** 34:28 Oh my gosh, I couldn't even begin to tell you lots. Well, that's good. All different kinds. I mean, you know, all different kinds. 34:38 Have you had 34:40 Go ahead. Thanks. Michael Hingson ** 34:43 Have you had any or any significant number of appearances and interviews on television over the years? Karolyn Grimes ** 34:50 No, just interviews, lots of interviews, live interviews. Yeah, yes, that's all never involved with anything again. And, but, yeah, I think I might do something kind of fun in September Michael Hingson ** 35:08 March or in in Washington. Karolyn Grimes ** 35:11 No, no, what in Ireland? Michael Hingson ** 35:15 In Ireland, be gosh and be Garda. Yes, what are you going to Karolyn Grimes ** 35:19 do? They're going, they're filming movie about Jimmy Stewart. Oh, and they want me to do a cameo. Well, cool. Isn't that fun? Michael Hingson ** 35:31 That'll be exciting. Yes, I'm really excited. Wow. So long later. I, yeah, you know, I, I, I've seen, of course, movies with Jimmy Stewart, and I remember seeing him once on The Tonight Show, Later in the period of The Tonight Show and so on. And I'm not sure how long after that, he he passed, but I remember his his appearance, which was kind of fun. Karolyn Grimes ** 35:59 Did you happen to hear him when he did the poem about his dog bull. Michael Hingson ** 36:04 Yeah, that's what I'm thinking of. That's the one I saw Karolyn Grimes ** 36:07 that was so tender and true. It was just really something. Michael Hingson ** 36:13 And the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson was such a wonderful show. I watched reruns of it regularly on some of the channels, and I just think that it's so much more fun than a lot of what we see in late night TV. Today, I do miss Johnny Carson. Yes, did you ever, did you ever meet him? Karolyn Grimes ** 36:32 No, I didn't. Michael Hingson ** 36:38 Well still, I remember old Bo Karolyn Grimes ** 36:43 Yes, he was a wonderful man. Yeah, they did a special thing in 19 a, 1990 it was they had a special event that was honoring him and all the people that he worked with, Allison, you know, all the stars that he'd work with. And so he invited me to come. So I went to New York, and I just had a really wonderful time about to meet his wife, and it was just good old fun just to see him again, because he was just such a down to earth man, yeah, and he just was so kind and so generous that it was a real, real exciting moment For me, that's for sure. Michael Hingson ** 37:40 I watch him occasionally now, because he is regular, not regularly, but he's often on the Jack Benny show. And the Jack Benny show is being run on a couple on some of the TV stations, and so it's kind of fun to see the by play between he and his wife and Jack Benny. And, of course, Jack Benny, it's the traditional Jack Benny image. But the shows are so much fun, yes? And clearly, Jimmy Stewart, well, all of them have a lot of fun doing those shows. Karolyn Grimes ** 38:17 Yeah, I think they did. Yeah. Those old radio shows were so great. I really enjoyed them back in the day well. Michael Hingson ** 38:29 And I find that when people really enjoy what they do, and you see that come out in even on some of the earlier television shows, with the radio shows, it makes such a difference, because you can feel the energy that's coming from people. Karolyn Grimes ** 38:48 You do. You really do. Michael Hingson ** 38:52 If people don't enjoy what they're doing, that comes through. And you you can tell so it's it's fun, when people really enjoy it. Well, how did you get involved with the Marshfield Cherry Blossom Festival? You've been doing that for a while, Karolyn Grimes ** 39:14 a long years, more than I true. Well, Nicholas called me. He runs the festival. I can't tell you what year it was, but it probably was early 80s. Maybe, wow, no, wouldn't have been early 80s. Sorry, no. Probably in early 2000 okay? And he called me and asked me if I would come down and be in the festival. So I said, Okay, and so. We flew back and went to the festival, and it was Dean Martin's daughter was there, and one of the Munchkins was there. Can't think of his name. One lived in St Louis, character. He was there. Couple of other people that were there, you know, old stars, and it rained, it snowed, and it was just, it was awful. It sweeted. It was just really bad. So there wasn't much of a turnout, and it was kind of a disappointment to Nicholas, I think because it since then they've changed the date, so it's a little later in the year. And yeah, you know, kind of count on the weather being a little better. But then I didn't come back for about two years, and then he called me King, and from that time forward, I went back every year, and one of the special things that happened by being there was that the lady who played violet bit, young, Violet bit, she can't think of her name, but I'm really bad At names today. Yeah, way she she was a psychologist, and for the last, oh, I guess long, maybe eight years before I met her, Jimmy Hawkins, the littlest boy in the movie, and myself, had tried to get her involved with the film, and what the things that we did for the film, and she wouldn't have anything to do with it, because she thought it was Hollywood, and she didn't believe in that, and this was the only movie she did. So someone by the name of Nicholas convinced her to come that year. So she came, and she her son brought her, and when she saw how much that movie is loved and how it had affected so many people and their story, she got the first hand view of that that was then for her. She decided she wanted to be a part of It's a Wonderful Life from then on, did they Michael Hingson ** 42:27 show the movie that you're at the festival? No, oh, okay, Karolyn Grimes ** 42:32 no, she just came, Michael Hingson ** 42:34 and so many people just talked about it. Karolyn Grimes ** 42:37 Yeah, yeah. She she finally realized that people really loved the movie. Of course, she saw it after that, because after that little appearance, I say you're coming to Seneca Falls. I won't take no for an answer. So her son brought her every year after that, and of course, we saw the movie dead, and she had experienced the real love that the people had for the film and for the characters in the film. Michael Hingson ** 43:12 What was it like being around and working with Lionel Barrymore, Karolyn Grimes ** 43:20 well, I really wasn't around him very much. We had cast fish shoes sometimes, and he he was in his he was really in a wheelchair. He had crippling arthritis. It's terrible. His hands are all gnarled. And I really didn't talk to him or having any interaction with him. I might have been in scene with him, or we've done publicity photos with him, but I don't, I don't remember ever Michael Hingson ** 43:50 interacting with him, with him that much, yeah, Karolyn Grimes ** 43:53 but he wasn't scary, yeah? Michael Hingson ** 43:57 Well, that's a start. Not, not like marine O'Hara huh? Karolyn Grimes ** 44:01 No, no. And they had a cast party at the end of movie. Most movies after they're finished, had a cast party, uh huh? This one was celebrating the end of its wonderful life. And so he, he came and I got to talk to him without, you know, he had a skull cap on, and it raised his forehead about two inches, so he had real elongated, big forehead, and took more hair off his head, so he looked meaner. That was the idea. So he didn't have that on you just look like a normal man and everything, and he didn't look mean. And so I chatted with him. He was fine. He wasn't really a nice guy. Michael Hingson ** 44:51 Again, it's one of those things where he was perfect for that part, though. Karolyn Grimes ** 44:55 Oh yes, he was perfect. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 45:00 It was, it was fun. And I, I think, at the time, when I first saw the movie, I didn't even know that he was the person who played Mr. Potter, but I didn't, I didn't realize that because I was young enough, but I hadn't really learned about different characters and and different actors, but I figured it out soon enough. Yeah, so tell me about Zuzu house back there. Karolyn Grimes ** 45:30 Well, one night I was writing in a limo, and it was during the Christmas season. I was somewhere in New York, and I can't remember where I was doing a gig, and Nicholas called me, and I'll always remember it, because I was sitting in this room all and he said, Carolyn, I just discovered there are people in this community. This is very small town. Well, it's a small town, and there are people who young people who don't have a place to sleep. They're sleeping on park benches. There's this couch surfing, all this chippy said I had no idea this was going on. I want us to start a house and make it possible for them to have shelter. And so he said, The reason I'm calling you is because I want to know if it's alright if I name it the Zuzu house. So I said, Well, of course, go right ahead. So from then on, I became active with the Zuzu house and their foundation and their situation, all that they do. Unfortunately, covid happened right after that, and it made it really hard to get, you know, materials, building materials, and things like that that we needed to finish it. So it took a long time to finish the house, but it's finished now, and it houses now. It houses is us refuse for women from mean men, I guess, and that's what it is. So I'm proud to be part of it, and they did such a fabulous job. It's a great, wonderful, beautiful facility, and it's way out in the country, and it's really a place where they can get their marbles all on sack again. Michael Hingson ** 47:33 How far is it from Marshfield? Um, I didn't get to go there when I was there last year. Karolyn Grimes ** 47:40 My guess is about 30 minutes. Oh, okay. Michael Hingson ** 47:47 Well, now the the the other question I would ask is, as you pointed out, the reason that the women are there, so do you go and teach them elocution, like how Marino Hara talk so that they can, yeah, I just just say, help them out, you know, Karolyn Grimes ** 48:08 yeah, I learned a lot there. Michael Hingson ** 48:12 But yeah, that that's really cool, that that you, you do that. Well, tell me about Seneca Falls, or, should we say, Bedford Falls, and what goes on there, and, yes, what you do and so on. I'll always think of it just Bedford Falls, but Karolyn Grimes ** 48:27 most people do, Michael Hingson ** 48:29 as opposed to potters field, you know. But yeah, Karolyn Grimes ** 48:34 about seeing my this is my 23rd year. So 23 years ago, God, I can't believe it's that long. I knew cameraman on the Oprah show. It's very good friend of mine. And so it was September, and he called me and he said, Oh my god, Carolyn, this is it. This is the town you've got to come here. You've got to come He says, I'm going to go talk to somebody. And that was the last I heard. But he talked to somebody, the right person who knew what it was about and saw the possibilities. And so her name was mo cock at the time. Her name is Young. Now mo young, but she went to the Historical Society and got funding and turned it around real fast so that they could create an event for me to come and appear. So I did, and I landed in Rochester, I believe what drove to Seneca Falls, and it was snowing, and I there was no one on the streets. There was no one around. And she drive, drove up to the Main Street and open. The car door. When we just walked on Main Street, the bridge was there. It was all lit up, yeah, lit up on each post, lamp post. And it was the most wonderful experience, because I really felt like this was the place, if Frank Kaplan wanted to see a place that would inspire him to build bamboo falls, this would be the place to come. And I was so impressed. And I just loved it. So I came back every year after that, yeah, and, and then I started inviting other people like Jimmy Hawkins and Jamie, who Carol Coombs, who played Jamie, and, you know, other people. And so it was very neat event. And I even invited the babies who played Larry, the oldest boy in the movie. You know, they have a they have to have twins to play babies, because they can't be under the lights so long. So they rotate them. And so that was, that was really kind of incredible, too. Now, it's a huge affair and it Michael Hingson ** 51:21 never had anything to do with the movie originally, right? Karolyn Grimes ** 51:25 We're not sure. I actually think that Frank Capra had an aunt in Aurora, which is south of that town, and there's a barber there that he swears that he cut Capra's hair, and when I first started going there, what, 20 years ago, he was still alive. So I talked to him, and I said, Do you really think that was Frank Capra? And he said, Yes, I do. I really do. And he said, You know, I cut his hair, and I will always remember we chatted, and he said he was from Sicily, and I was from Sicily too, so we had a lot of calm. And he said his last name was Capra, and it means goat in Italian. And Tommy's name, the barber's name is bellissimo, which means beautiful. So he said, I always remember cutting the goat's hair. Wow, I saw three weeks later in a newspaper, there was an article about him going to make the movie. It's a wonderful love. So he said I knew that was who he was, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 52:54 so he had clearly been there, and imagery made such an impression on him, Karolyn Grimes ** 53:03 and also on the bridge, there's a plaque, and he would have seen this, and it was for a young Italian immigrant. And of course, you know, capper was strong Italian. And this young Italian immigrant didn't know how to swim, but he jumped in the canal to save the life of a wasp woman who was committing suicide, and he made her her get out of our she got out of the water safely, and he died, he didn't know how to swim. So it was a huge thing back then, and it brought the community together. You know, there was the Italian side and and the the other side. And this brought everybody together. And it, it turned out that the they brought the whole family, his whole family, over, because they were, you know, what, wanted to do something, because they appreciated what he'd done so much to say that woman's life. And so I think camper would have seen that and that plaque, and he would have learned a story, and maybe that gave him some ideas about It's A Wonderful Life. Michael Hingson ** 54:28 I don't know a lot about Frank Capra, but it's fascinating to hear the stories that you're telling, because it it certainly portrays him as a not only a caring person, but a person who pays attention to a lot of detail. The very fact that that he was in that town, and all the imagery and all the things that he brought to it had to, had to be very relevant. Well, all Karolyn Grimes ** 54:56 the names of the streets in the town are. The movie, or, you know, quite a few of them, yeah, and the main street had a part of it at that time that had trees down the middle of it. And there's just so many things in in the town that are applicable to the film. And I used to know tons more when I was trying to convince everybody that this was the place. But now I don't have to remember those anymore, because people already know there are 1000s and 1000s of people that go through the town and feel the magic that now then we, we the gift shop is making it possible for people to remember their loved ones by putting bells on the bridge. And it's really, you know, become something. And then the museum, which I helped start, is really a cool museum, but they are getting a new museum, which is going to be much larger because they can't even begin to display all the things they have. Michael Hingson ** 56:14 Well, it's, it's, it's interesting how all of this has has come up, but none of the filming of the movie was was done there. It was all in Hollywood, right? Oh, yes, but, but still, the the imagery and the vision that that people have, that brought you and everyone together to create that celebration is certainly great for the town. I love that one is it? I'm just going to have to show up. It's a Christmas event every year, right? Karolyn Grimes ** 56:47 Yes, yeah. There's a 5k run, and they start on the bridge. And there's a few serious people in the beginning, some fellas and gals that want to win. But after that, let me tell you, it's fun. There are people dressed like Christmas trees. They got lights all over themselves. They they light up their dogs, their babies, their strollers, and they're all in this run, and it's five miles. And at some of the they go through the residential district, and some of the houses they have the booths give them a little bit of hot toddy and so forth to get them on Michael Hingson ** 57:29 the way. Yeah, in Christmas time, I would think so it's just Karolyn Grimes ** 57:33 a lot of fun. And people love it. And I always started every time they have it. I've always started it, so that's kind of a tradition. Michael Hingson ** 57:46 So you have done some cameos, like Gremlins and Christmas vacation, right? Well, yeah, cameo appearances, Karolyn Grimes ** 57:55 yeah, I guess you say that, yeah. What was that like? Well, it's, it was just, you know, the movie they showed the movie, yeah, so that was, that was all. It was just, they showed the movie just like they showed it in Christmas vacation. And somehow, when they show the movie, it's always when Zuzu is saying that line. Oh, Michael Hingson ** 58:21 okay, so it's not so much you as it is the the original movie, yeah, it's little Zuzu well, but it's a great line. I mean, you know, well, it is. I remember last year, wasn't it? I think at the reps event. We'll get to that in a sec. But I remember getting some bells from you, and I actually, I think I told you I was going to send one to my cousin, and I let you say hello to her, and she got that bell and was completely blown away. She loves it. Oh, good. And I have the bell. I have my bell sitting out in open plain sight for the world to see, and I go by and ring it every so often. Oh, great. Oh, well, we gotta have those angels out. So what kind of events and things do you do typically, or do you like to to enjoy doing it Christmas? Karolyn Grimes ** 59:20 Um, I kind of work during Christmas. Well, that's my season, and so I do gift shows. I do appearances, I introduce the movie. I do I'm on the road the whole time, and I love it, because I interact with these wonderful people who love the movie. And if they love the movie, believe me, they are wonderful people. Michael Hingson ** 59:45 Yeah, undoubtedly, so well, so you you also have been involved with some of the radio recreations from from reps. And what do you think about that? How do you like that? Do. Karolyn Grimes ** 59:59 Oh, my goodness, so much fun. And I'm old enough to remember a Michael Hingson ** 1:00:04 lot of the shows. Karolyn Grimes ** 1:00:07 No, I remember very well. And, you know, I it was just a whole bunch of fun to do that and recreate these scenes from older raining days. And I remember my mother and father bought a brand new Frazier. It's a car, and I'm sure nobody's ever heard of Kaiser Fraser cars, because that was the ugliest name car in my life. But they had to have that car. And I remember when we got the car, my dad was offered he could either have a heater and he could afford to pay for either a heater or a radio. And he chose the radio. So I heard inner sanctum. I heard all these wonderful, wonderful plays. Back in the day, all these shows from the radio. Michael Hingson ** 1:01:07 I came in near the the so called traditional end of radio, probably actually 1957 so I had five years, but almost from the beginning, I always wanted to collect more of the shows and did, and then also did a radio program for six and a half, almost seven years at the campus radio station where I worked, kuci. We did radio every Sunday night, so I had three hours of radio. And I love to tell people I heard about this show on television called 60 minutes. But my show was opposite Mike Wallace, and mine went for three hours, and his was only an hour, but it was like seven years before I got to watch 60 minutes and and learn about it, because we had shows every year or every every Sunday night, and we had a deputy sheriff who called from the Orange County jail once to tell me. He said, You know, you guys have created a real challenge for us, because he said, so many people have heard about what you do, some of a lot of our inmates, that on Sunday nights, we have to split the jail and send half people up, half the people upstairs, where there's enough radio reception, they can listen to your show, and the other half listens to and watches 60 minutes, which I always thought was kind of cute. So you do a podcast now too, don't you? 1:02:34 I do tell us Michael Hingson ** 1:02:36 about that. I know we were focused on it. Yeah, Karolyn Grimes ** 1:02:39 Chris and I do it. He's He's a psychologist, and we interview all kinds of people, all walks of life, yeah. Michael Hingson ** 1:02:51 How long has it been running now, Karolyn Grimes ** 1:02:54 this is second year, okay, Michael Hingson ** 1:02:57 well, I don't know. Chris hasn't said a single word during this whole thing. Karolyn Grimes ** 1:03:01 Oh, he's not here. What good is he, you know, right? Michael Hingson ** 1:03:09 Well, so you know, we've been, can you believe what we've been doing? This an hour? Karolyn Grimes ** 1:03:14 Oh, really, I did not know. I'm Michael Hingson ** 1:03:18 telling you, time flies when you're having fun. Is there kind of anything that you want to talk about that maybe we haven't yet, any any last questions or thoughts that you have that you want to bring up? Karolyn Grimes ** 1:03:31 No, I don't think so. I think we've covered it pretty good. We've, we've, Michael Hingson ** 1:03:37 we've done a lot. But you know, it's really wonderful to to have you on if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Karolyn Grimes ** 1:03:45 They can reach me at Carolyn, K, A R, o l, y n, dot Wilkerson, W, I, L, k, e r, s o n@gmail.com, Michael Hingson ** 1:04:01 okay. Well, hopefully people will reach out, and if they want to also have a website, I was going to ask 1:04:10 you that zoo, zoo.net, Michael Hingson ** 1:04:12 well, you can't do better than that. And what's the podcast called Karolyn Grimes ** 1:04:22 seeing this is the thing with names. There it goes again. You think, I know? Oh, my goodness, I can't remember. Oh, tell you, I'm getting old. It's getting worse and worse. Michael Hingson ** 1:04:36 All grown up is the puppy. All grown up, all grown ups. Oh, Carolyn, Carol, well, there you go. Well, yeah, and I, I enjoyed being on it. Well, I'm sorry we're going to miss seeing you at reps, because I won't be able to be there. I had told Walden, and walden's actually been on unstoppable mindset now a couple of. On, but I had told him he and I had talked about me doing Richard diamond private detective and actually playing Richard diamond. And I said, I want Carolyn to play Helen Asher. So we'll now have to postpone, postpone that till next year, 1:05:14 but we're going to do it. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 1:05:17 yeah. It'll be fun. I Richard diamond has always been kind of really my favorite radio show, and I think I can carry off that voice pretty well. Karolyn Grimes ** 1:05:27 So it'll be fun. Yeah, it will well. Michael Hingson ** 1:05:30 I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening to us today, reminisce and talk about all sorts of stuff. Love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and, of course, wherever you're observing the podcast today, I hope that you'll give us a five star rating. Karolyn deserves a five star rating, even if you don't think I do do it for Karolyn. We love to have great reviews. We appreciate it. And Karolyn for you and everyone out there who is listening and watching. If you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, we'd love it if you'd reach out and let us know, give us an introduction. I think everyone has a story to tell, and I enjoy getting the opportunity to to visit with people and hear stories. So please, if you have any thoughts, introduce us. We'd love to to meet other people. But again, Karolyn, I really appreciate you being here, and I want to thank you for being with us today. 1:06:38 My pleasure being here. Michael Hingson ** 1:06:42 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

christmas god tv love american new york california texas children hollywood washington discover film young new york times walk western ireland italian wife irish hospitals alive fame missouri blind oprah winfrey couple alzheimer's disease kansas city ambassadors thunder stitcher korean initiative ebooks unstoppable calgary golden age horrible rochester indians orange county ratings st louis gremlins main street calvary rutgers university wonderful life tonight show reps grimes relive moab rio grande sicily john wayne frazier ic walden lux american red cross johnny carson jimmy stewart dean martin wilkerson puget sound colorado river cary grant frank capra james stewart radio city music hall national federation little debbie historical society orphaned garda uhf fall river capra rockettes mike wallace jack benny michael h osceola david niven donna reed zuzu munchkins marshfield seneca falls private detective lionel barrymore exxon mobile chief vision officer federal express bedford falls scripps college richard diamond loretta young karolyn michael hingson accessibe american humane association karolyn grimes thunder dog zuzu bailey hero dog awards helen asher central missouri state

Wachstum durch „schöpferische Zerstörung“? Was die Politik aus der Nobelpreis-Verleihung lernen kann

kann durch lernen wachstum rung zerst die politik verleihung michael h philippe aghion joel mokyr der nobelpreis

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 17, 2025 25:49

Nach der Verleihung des Wirtschaftsnobelpreises 2025 an Joel Mokyr, Philippe Aghion und Peter Howitt diskutieren Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther, wie aktuell Schumpeters Idee der „schöpferischen Zerstörung“ heute noch ist.

Episode 379 – Unstoppable Lessons From Peter William Murphy: Turn Small Choices Into Big Change

airhacks.fm podcast with adam bien

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 14, 2025 62:21

Ever feel like you had to start over from zero? I sit down with writer and teacher Peter William Murphy, an Irish expat who rebuilt after a family business collapse, a serious injury, and a move to Reunion Island that reset his path. I wanted to understand what it really takes to choose growth when life gets loud, and Peter shows us how clear decisions, steady practice, and honest support can open new doors. We talk about the power of owning your choices, moving through anxiety, and asking for help before pride gets in the way. Peter explains how he built Peak English to help students raise their IELTS scores and change their futures. We get into how online teaching actually works when you design it with care, why in-person connection still matters, and how writing became a tool for clarity, confidence, and service. What I love most in this conversation is Peter's calm style of resilience. It is not flashy. It is daily. If you are starting over, switching careers, or simply trying to make your next decision with intention, you will hear practical steps you can use right away. I think you will walk away encouraged, with a clearer view of what steady progress looks like and how to keep going when the ground shifts under your feet. Highlights: 00:10 – Meet the guest and set the theme of choosing growth over comfort. 01:12 – Hear how a family hospitality legacy shaped early values and work ethic. 02:25 – Learn how the 2008 crash ended the bar and pushed a search for a new path. 07:37 – See why a one-way ticket to Reunion Island became a turning point. 10:11 – Follow the move into teaching without a degree and the first classroom wins. 14:20 – Pick up online teaching tactics like gamification and lesson design. 15:56 – Understand imposter syndrome and the pivot into writing and Peak English. 21:16 – Get a clear take on when online learning works and when it does not. 28:38 – Compare virtual vs. in-person speaking for connection and impact. 32:41 – Learn Peak English's mission to make IELTS success more accessible. 46:32 – Try a simple decision tool: write pros and cons and choose with intent. 54:55 – Hear the advice to younger self: talk to someone sooner and keep going About the Guest: Peter William Murphy is an Irish writer, educator, and host whose path has been anything but conventional. Raised in a small family-run hotel on Ireland's west coast, Peter immigrated to America following the hotel's closure, attending school there before returning home to rediscover his Irish roots—and a deep love for sport. But beneath the rugby and soccer fields, a creative instinct stirred. When the 2008 crash brought down his family's business for a second time, Peter booked a one-way ticket to an island off the coast of Madagascar with just €20 and no job prospects. After a brief period of sleeping rough, he was helped by strangers who offered support without judgment—a lesson in quiet empathy that never left him. Peter made his name on Medium, where he was curated 39 times for his memoir-style essays on travel and the lessons learned along the way, before pivoting to sharp, comedic takes on current affairs. Notable among his growing body of work are original characters like Jack Hennessy, a wry Irish journalist with a nose for trouble, and the Rick and Morty-inspired duo, Peta and Freeman—two chaotic, absurdist voices that serve as both satire and self-reflection. He now splits his creative focus between personal essays, humor writing, and his new livestream comedy podcast, The Peter and Philip Show, which he co-hosts with author Philip Ogley and which is gaining a mini-cult following on Substack. Peter is currently working on a book loosely inspired by his global misadventures, missteps, and the redemptive power of human connection. Some of Peter's creative and personal heroes include Hunter S. Thompson, Ernest Hemingway, Matt Stone and Trey Parker, as well as his mother, father, and brother—who continue to inspire his voice, values, and pursuit of honest storytelling. Peter is currently developing the Peta and Freeman series into a comic and is halfway through writing his first novel, The Red Beach in Paradise, which tells the story of his time on Réunion Island through the fictional lens of Jack Hennessy. While Peter still teaches full-time with his own private students, he is also working on opening an online school to help students prepare for exams and gain university admission across Europe. Every cent he earns from his writing goes directly toward making that school a reality. Ways to connect with Peter: My GoFundMe to fund the school: Link here Peak English Instagram account: Link here Peak English TikTok: Link here My substack that contains writing and podcasts: Link here My Medium Account: Link here About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi, everyone. Welcome wherever you happen to be to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And today, I think we're mostly going to get to do the unexpected, which is anything that doesn't have to do with inclusion or diversity. Peter Murphy, or Peter William Murphy, as he refers to himself in all the emails that he sends to me, is a writer. He has been a teacher, has an interesting story, I think, all the way around, and I'm not going to tell it, because it's more fun to listen to him tell it, and we'll see what we can learn from it and how we progress. So anyway, Peter, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Peter William Murphy ** 02:00 Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Michael Hingson ** 02:03 And although Peter is Irish, he's in Turkey today, or he's he's over there, so he does move around, as you're going to learn in the course of this next hour or so. So why don't we start, why don't you tell us, kind of about the early Peter, growing up and so on. Peter William Murphy ** 02:19 Um, well, I'm from truly, county Terry in Ireland, beautiful small town in the west coast, the Southwest we I come from a family of Hoteliers and publicans. My great grand Well, yeah, my great grandfather had the Meadowlands hotel in Chile, and then passed to my grandfather. But then after that, my father decided to open up his own bar. And that's kind of where after growing up, you know, around the hotel and, you know, seeing all the customers talking to people, very social kind of atmosphere, but unfortunately, it closed down. We had to move to America, back to Ireland. I attended Glendale Abbey school in County Limerick and yeah, I had a great upbringing, great family, but unfortunately, I never really liked school, if I'm be honest with you, which is a strange thing for a teacher today, I did not do well in school. I did just okay. But after the economic crash in 2008 Unfortunately, our family business closed down, so I had to try and find my own path. It was a little bit different than Ireland and I took off, got myself a teaching cert, and went to Reunion Island. And from there, my story kind of took off, and it's kind of where I learned a lot of my lessons. And after that, I just kept on going and didn't stop. Michael Hingson ** 03:59 So why did the family business closed down the first time. Peter William Murphy ** 04:04 The first time was because my grandfather basically needed a retirement, and he sold the hotel. And then my father then decided to open up his own bar, and just rising then 10 years later, that closed down during in 2011 I think there is a big economic crash in Ireland, rents went up. People weren't eating or socializing like they were, and through no fault of RL, it was just time to close the doors, which was a pity, because name of the bar was wooly Darcy's. It was a fantastic bar, very social, no televisions, very traditional, and yeah, so we all kind of had to go off and find other ways. And, you know, figure out who we are without, say, bars or. Hells or general hospitality and so kind of, yeah, right. Michael Hingson ** 05:06 Well, so what? What was the reason for commuting or immigrating all the way to America after that? Peter William Murphy ** 05:14 Well, we immigrated to America after Michael Hingson ** 05:17 the hotel, yeah, after the hotel closed, right? Peter William Murphy ** 05:21 Yeah, that was in 1998 and we were there for maybe two years, I believe, I'm not sure, and went to school there. My father worked in summers pubs, which is owned by my uncle in Boston, and then he made enough money to come back to Ireland in 2000 and open up his own bar. But yeah, it's just, Michael Hingson ** 05:49 why America? Why America? When the hotel closed, half Peter William Murphy ** 05:53 our family live over there, so my mom's side of the family live in America. Yeah, okay, Michael Hingson ** 05:59 well, that makes it a little bit more logical that you would you would consider doing that. Peter William Murphy ** 06:05 Oh, I loved it, Michael. I After, after two weeks, I was no longer Irish. I was playing baseball, eating pizza. I good American accent. I loved America, I Michael Hingson ** 06:17 must say now, so are you in the Boston area? Peter William Murphy ** 06:21 Yeah, we lived in West Roxbury, okay, just outside the city. Michael Hingson ** 06:26 I lived in Winthrop Massachusetts, which is by East Boston, for three years. Very nice. So I never really got a Boston accent, but I do know how to say things like, pack your kind of have a yacht, you know? I can, I can still do it. Great accent, actually, but that's lovely. But I enjoyed being in Boston and just being around all the history. It's pretty, pretty amazing. But then you move back to Ireland, so that worked out, and he started a bar, and then you did that. So when, when that closed, and then you left again? Why did you leave again? Peter William Murphy ** 07:06 Uh, basically, um, it feels difficult, kind of speaking about publicly, but I, I was kind of Joe there's, and I say that because there are people out there with bigger problems than me like I was a rugby player and the son of a publican. So for my formative years, my identity, for me at least, was kind of set. I was either going to be a rugby player or I was going to work in a bar or go into hotel management or something like that, but I had a pretty horrific leg injury during rugby training, and I suffered a few blows to the head, and then the bar closed down, so it was like one year you kind of had it all figured out. And then going into university as a young man, I had nothing. I could barely really walk I my family identity was gone. We're in the midst of a economic crash, a depression, and then I kind of developed my own sort of depression, but I, at the time, I didn't know it was depression. It's only Lacher that, when I spoke about it to professional that I kind of, we kind of spoke through and just said, Yeah, that's what it was. So I kind of, I wouldn't say, lied to my parents, but I told my mom, who's listening? Hi, Mom, I love you that I got a job in France, and I'd gotten an English certificate, and I didn't want to do University. I wanted to take a year out because I just couldn't handle it. Um, so, you know, I thought solving my problems would, you know, going away would solve my problems. So I there was no job in France. In fact, I wasn't going to France. I booked a one way ticket to Reunion Island, which is an island often called to the Madagascar in the Indian Ocean. Michael Hingson ** 09:22 So why there? Why there? Because my friend Peter William Murphy ** 09:26 was there, and he was there getting University credits for his degree. And, you know, back then, I wasn't a very good listener. I was a bit silly. I'm sure he told me all the details, but I just, I just heard son see maybe a job, and it's not and it's not Ireland, you know, it's not gray, it's not depressed. People aren't on social welfare. Let's, let's go. So I booked a one way ticket with what remained in my savings. And blew over there. And Michael, I'm going to be honest with you, when I landed at the airport in fentanyl, and I was hit with the hot Island air, and I could see it the volcano and, you know, the blue ocean surrounding me, I immediately regretted my decision. I want to go home, but I couldn't, because I had no money to buy a return ticket. So then the kind of Island Adventure kind of started, and yeah, I was stuck there for two years trying to get home. Michael Hingson ** 10:34 Did you ever kind of make peace with all that and decide that maybe it wasn't such a bad place? Peter William Murphy ** 10:40 Yeah, I, I, I kind of, because I'm a storyteller. I love writing, so I'm good at, kind of, you know, I wouldn't say I think all writers are good at, you know, giving dramatic effect. You know, maybe there, there's instead of one shark, there's five sharks. Instead of a storm, it's a cyclone. But when I would tell people about it, I would say it was difficult, but looking back at it now, it was probably the best thing I ever did, just taking that leap and going for it. Michael Hingson ** 11:19 Did you ever finish in going to university? Or did you ever Peter William Murphy ** 11:23 No, I just kept going. Kept going, kept going. I I got a job teaching English at a course. A lady by the name of Daniela from Angola gave me my first ever job, and you know, we hit it off. And this is back in 2011 or 12. I After about six or seven months working with her, so all the kids love me, the students love me. I learned a lot about her kind of holistic approach to education and teaching, and we were speaking in her kitchen one day, and she says, okay, when all this is over, what are you going to do? And I said, Well, I'm going to try and open up my own school. And she seemed surprised, but yeah, over 1310, or 11 years later, I'm not sure that's exactly what I'm trying to do now, is open up my own school. Michael Hingson ** 12:21 Tell Peter William Murphy ** 12:22 me about the school. Well, my wife, well, I'll go back a little bit. When I finally built up enough money to fly home, I got a job working with a man from America, actually teaching students in Cork. And I said I wasn't ready to go back to university just yet. I'd been in university for three years before I left, and it just something wasn't clicking with me. I'm an intelligent enough person, but in university just something, it just wasn't clicking. So I've decided to, you know, go to Turkey, simply because it was, you know, the closest. It wasn't like France, which is familiar, and it wasn't like, you know, far away, like China or somewhere like that. So I went there and got a job. But within six months, I think I landed a very, very good job at the top private school there, and they knew that I didn't have a degree. They just knew that I had selfless certificates and TEFL and other English certificates. But they have about 60 campuses in Turkey, and they gave me, and one of them is a university in Istanbul. So I was given a lot of education. By then, I was kind of a teacher for 15th. I observed, if I was doing a lesson, I'd be observed lots of seminars, getting more certificates, learning more and more. And you know that as time went on, I just kind of became Mr. Murphy, you know what I mean? I became a teacher, kind of, I proved myself, and just my students started getting good results. The parents were very fond of me. My colleagues were fond of me, my boss, my principal was fond of me. So I went from kind of not really having any identity, not knowing what I was doing, to kind of having it. So I stayed working in this big school for eight years, and to get back to kind of your question on the degree and the school i i was chosen by them to give a talk in Istanbul to all my peers on online methodology and how I help kids. Do you know? With gamifications, using the right websites for them, things like this, I slowly became very adept at, and they asked me to do it the second year. And then I got offered by Pierce in Turkey, which is an educational publishing company, and to do seminars on their behalf. And then this is, it was the first time since I left Ireland. This was in 2002 or three where I began to have imposter syndrome, where I was like, Okay, I know I'm good, but am I better than the people who I'm, who I'm speaking to, you know, and I raised this with the person who gave me the opportunity, and he said, Everyone feels, feels this way, you know. But I couldn't shake it, so I decided to in 2023 to step back from teaching, and I told my principal that I'm going to take some time away from it, and I became a writer on medium, and my writing on medium then took off. I started making a lot of money, and I found myself in this little hole where everything I was I was trying, was working for me, but it still didn't feel like something that I could 100% stick with well, which is why I started writing the book, and then it's why my wife and I decided to open up our own course, which will be a methodology, kind of created by the two of us, a curriculum, curriculum created by the two of us, which will have third party eyes who will sign off on it, and it's called Peak English, and we'll take it from there. So that's kind of my long answer to your very simple question. Michael Hingson ** 17:05 Sorry, Kay, that's fine. Going back to when you went to Reunion Island. Do you think there was something deeper than just escaping from Ireland and the life you had, or you think it was just that simple? Peter William Murphy ** 17:24 Um, yeah, it's strange, because I have a great relationship. My brother, my father and my mother were all very close. But I, I think, I think I became afraid of life, you know, because, you know, my father's my hero, of course, and he's a well respected man in the community. He He was awarded, I can't remember the name of the award, but basically, best host of the Year, Best host in Ireland last year by the hospitality board in the country. And when I saw what the economic crash did to him, it didn't break him, but when I saw that what it did to him, I was like, my god, if life can do that to my dad, take away his bar, you know, make him sad, or whatever it's like, what's it going to do to someone like me, you know, so I became very afraid of life, and I suppose I just wanted to go somewhere that felt other worldly, and that just felt so different, you know, that just so different, Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 18:38 well, and, and now you say that you really feel that it was the best decision that you could make. Peter William Murphy ** 18:48 Yeah, I wouldn't change it for the world. I mean, I've got some great stories. Yeah, halfway through a book about it now. So hopefully in the next year, that book will hopefully get published, and if not, I'll put it out there myself. Michael Hingson ** 19:06 So when the pandemic hit, how did that affect or deal with your teaching and so on? Because you were teaching all that time since you you stepped back from that in 2023 so you must have had to deal with a lot of stuff with the pandemic, I would think, Peter William Murphy ** 19:25 yeah, I know a lot of people suffered during the pandemic, but if I'm going to speak, it was difficult for everyone, but if I'm going to just for me in my apartment in Turkey, it was a good pandemic for me, you know, I took the opportunity to learn the guitar, get better at my job, did a lot of study, got more certificates, and also. Uh, I was familiar with Zoom before the big zoom thing happened. So I kind of knew before our first online lesson. You know, I spent about maybe three weeks because we went into lockdown in Turkey, I think March 2020, I believe we were a bit Lacher than most, but we, we stopped school in February, I think, and there was about a two or three week time where they were trying to figure it out. And, you know, you you know, everyone's going to go. If America and England are go and China are locked down. We're going to be locked down too. So I started doing tutorials on Zoom Near Pod, other online teaching websites, and started learning about them. So when the first lesson started on Zoom, I was really good at it, and all the students loved it. I wasn't the only teacher who did that. Lots of my colleagues I did that. But, you know, the pandemic was definitely a time where a lot of us who were lucky enough not to get ill were able to, you know, put more strings to our boat, right? Michael Hingson ** 21:24 What do you think about all the discussions and all the arguments and all the conversations that go on now about online teaching as opposed to doing it live, and where, where all of it fits in. Can people really do it, you know, kind of what are your thoughts Peter William Murphy ** 21:47 for children? I do not recommend this as the primary source of their education. I believe that socializing is very important for them, even having a teacher. You know, one of the biggest things you can do as a teacher with your classroom management is where you stand in the classroom. You know, being able to observe the students, then knowing that you're there as a present all the materials that you would have in the classroom. These are all things that actually, they need something small, but they do help kids that kind of five minute break every 14 minutes where they can run outside, keep a ball around and talk to each other. That's really important, yeah. But if you're talking about maybe between the 18 and up age group, I think it depends on the person. I've had students who who are prepared for IELTS, and they have needed a top score, and only have three months, and we've been face to face, working, helping them with their writing, doing everything, and it just doesn't work. There's something about the school environment where it just doesn't rub off on them. But then the minute you get them online and you start introducing games, you gamify it, just do lots of different things with them, for some reason they feel more comfortable. It could be an anxiety thing could be where they just feel more relaxed. At home, everyone's different, but for children, from my experience, definitely face to face learning is the best. Zoom is okay in an emergency. I do not recommend hybrid learning whatsoever. Michael Hingson ** 23:40 Yeah, it's a it's a challenge. I know, for me personally, I can do online and, or and, or I can do things in person, in terms of learning and so on. I'm used to doing a lot of things outside of the typical corporate or office environment. So I can do that, but I also value and appreciate the social interaction when you go into an office and you have an opportunity to to meet with people. The only thing I would would say is way too often, unfortunately, people socialize so much that they forget in a work environment, you're really there to work and really need to figure out how to focus more on getting the job done. But I think there are a lot of aspects to that as well, because it isn't necessarily that people are lazy, but by the same token, if they don't really recognize what the job is about and what they're doing and that they have to put the appropriate time into it, or figure out a way to put in the appropriate time, then that's, you know, an issue too. Peter William Murphy ** 24:58 Yeah, I would, you percent people. Be With You. Michael Hingson ** 25:01 I think that, yeah, it's interesting. I've had a few people on the podcast here where we've talked about time management. We've talked about how people work in Europe, as opposed to in the United States, and some of the statistics that show that, in reality, if people put in longer days, but don't spend as many days at work, like if you put in 410, hour days, as opposed to five, eight hour days or something like that, you tend to get more work done, which I think is very interesting. Peter William Murphy ** 25:36 Yeah, I've noticed that too, since I started working at home more and more. That I had a discussion with my wife the other day, and I said, you know, I think I need to rent an office, you know, because whilst I do like having, you know, low overheads and not paying rent. There is something about getting up in the morning, putting on a nice shirt, black coffee, and walk to the office. And you know, have your work day. One thing that I'm noticing is working online, with writing and helping students, is I'll wake up at 5am and I'll shower and I'll I'll work from 6am until midnight, and I am looking at my looking at myself in the mirror the next day and saying, Joe, this is unsustainable, like we It's you can say to yourself, oh, sure, just, you know, make your own routine. But it's very hard to stick to a routine if you are, you know, writing articles, if you have meetings at various times throughout the day, if you're dealing with multiple time zones. So there's, there is something attractive of going back and renting an office, you know, having a base where work is work and home is home. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 27:10 and I, and I appreciate that. I, I personally am able to work at home and separate that out. But I do know what you're what you're saying. And not everyone can do that. I've just done that a lot in my life because I've worked for companies where I worked remotely anyway, so I'm used to that, but I also appreciate your discipline. I'm sorry Peter William Murphy ** 27:35 you've got discipline. It's something I need to work Michael Hingson ** 27:38 on. Well, I guess that's probably it, yeah, I guess that's that's probably it. And I have enough other things during the day that demand time. So for example, at five o'clock, that's the time to feed the guide dog, and he wants to eat. And if I don't do that, I'm going to hear about it. So what's your dog's name? His name is Alamo. Like the Alamo? Yeah. So, you know, the issue is that I do have some things to help keep me honest, but, yeah, I can be fairly well disciplined with it, and I can make that work, and I understand that a lot of people can't. The other thing for me being a public speaker is I'm not as great a fan of speaking virtually, speaking online, as I am speaking in person. And the reason is, and it took me a while to kind of figure out why I didn't really like it as much as as probably some people that I don't have nearly the same kind of connection with the audience to whom I'm speaking if I'm doing it online, and I don't get to hear their reactions to things that I say. And for me, having that audio interaction, those auditory signals are part of what tells me if I'm doing a good job or not. On the other hand, I've done this long enough that I can pretty well tell what's probably going to work and what's not. So I'm perfectly happy to do virtual presentations, but if I have a choice, I like to do it in person, right? Peter William Murphy ** 29:09 Yeah, I agree with you there. There is something very cool about being up on stage, yeah, and talking to a lot of people, but my favorite part has to be afterwards, when you're having the teas and the coffees and you're talking to everybody in the lobby. I really do love that part. Michael Hingson ** 29:29 Oh, yeah. Well, and I try to integrate some of that even into the talks that I give, so that I have audiences participating. And sometimes the participation may be that I ask them something to answer, and sometimes it's how I tell a story to draw them in. And I've had any number of people tell me we were just following you down the stairs in the World Trade Center as you were telling the story. You were just so. Vivid with what you were saying. We were right there with you. And that's the thing that I think is a lot harder to do in a virtual environment than it is in a in an environment where you're actually speaking to people. Peter William Murphy ** 30:13 Yeah, that's I told you when we had a chat before I came on, that it's really great honor to speak to you. And you know, I really do love your story and the way that you tell it, and of course, about your guide dog that led you out. It's really like an amazing story Michael Hingson ** 30:36 well, and you know, it's it, it's a team effort. Both of us had jobs to do, and it was a matter of me being the team leader and keeping the team on course and doing the things that we needed to do. But it did work out well, and I'm glad about that. So it's that's important, but tell me more about the school that you're trying to start as you're working toward it, what will it be? Well, we Peter William Murphy ** 31:07 are deadline to open it up was in three weeks ago, we found three buildings. I can't go into the detail, but it's, let's just say that, you know, someone said one price in the advertisements, and then when we got face to face, there was a new price. There was a lot of that kind of carry on. So my wife and I had a discussion, and we said, let's put peak English online first and get a base in because we do plan to either maybe perhaps move to Ireland in the future. So it is going to have to be a business that can, you know, move anywhere. We are going to have to have a online base. We've started working with the school in Brazil, and we've got some clients in Saudi Arabia and Qatar. So it's a nice space to get online at the moment, as we head into September, when all the kids are back to school, and then we will start small. We on sub stack. I started a small GoFundMe to help me reach my goal before the deadline, and people were very, very supportive. They gained a lot of traction. And then I spoke with my subscribers, and I said I gave them the plan because I like to tell them to know what's going to happen if they're paid subscribers, because everything I make from my writing goes directly back into education. So everything I make from medium top back, everything it goes towards building the school. And we are now going to go into September on a good footing, but we're going to have to downsize our expectations and perhaps buy some or smaller but our methodology and our mission will remain the same, to make education affordable, to help students pass their IELTS exams, to give them an opportunity to go work in Canada, America, the UK, Ireland. Michael Hingson ** 33:15 So yes, that's peak English. Well, there you go. Which is, which is pretty cool. Well, what does your wife work? Or does she just help you with the school? Or what does she do? Peter William Murphy ** 33:26 My wife? What does she do? My wife is an artist. She's a gamer, she's a teacher and she's a website designer. She's everything. She's the Peter whisperer. She's definitely good at when I'm in a whirlwind writing or, you know, I'll do too many things at once. She's, she's like a tablet for ADHD. I think she just, she's good at, kind of directing me calm down. So she she knows everything. Michael, she's a teacher, English language teacher. Graduated from Palm college, university, and she worked in an ink, in a in a college, and she's just about to embark on her Master's. So one of us will get that degree. Michael Hingson ** 34:18 Yeah, one way or another, you'll have one in the family. Yeah, Peter William Murphy ** 34:22 exactly. Well, she has one, but she'll get a master's. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 34:26 you'll have a master's in the family. Do you have any children? No, no, no, we're children. No children yet? Well, that's another thing to look forward to in in the future, which is, which is, Peter William Murphy ** 34:38 where we don't know what to do. We love turkey, but also we want them to have a, you know, a Turkish. We want them to, you know, have an appreciation for Turkey and for Ireland. So we're trying to figure out where would be the best place to to raise kids in the in. You know, current global environment. And you know, despite all the trouble that Ireland has in 2008 every time I go home, it's still solid ground. And you know, it's the older I get, the more I'm kind of, I think we will end up there eventually, but we'll see. Yeah, well, Michael Hingson ** 35:28 it'll all work out in time. I suspect you strike me as individuals. Yeah, you strike me as a person that will, will make things work out. And you're, you're willing to step back and and do it in a methodical and in very positive way, which is, which is pretty cool. Well, tell me about some of your writing. What kind of what have you written? Peter William Murphy ** 35:54 Well, I told you about the book. I'm halfway through. It's the working title is becoming useful. Then on medium, I started writing about mental health, and I got imposter syndrome again. Of course, there's nothing wrong with writing anecdotally about your experience, but sometimes on the internet, it's probably better not to talk about kind of medical kind of things, you know what I mean. So I said, well, what could I pivot to? And I started writing travel memoirs about my time on the island, and I ended up getting curated about 40 times by medium selected for curation is basically where they choose the staff choose your story, and they give it a boost into the algorithm, and basically it just gets sent all over the internet. So that happened 40 times. Then I wrote for your tango, which is a New York based website. And then after a year and a half on medium, I pivoted to sub stack, where I continued to do my writing. And about three months ago, sub stack began doing live streams, kind of like on YouTube or Instagram, they have these live streams on sub stack. So I didn't feel comfortable talking about my teaching on sub stack, because I felt like my my writing persona, not that it's controversial, had its own space in my life, so I kept it separate from my teaching, and I spoke with a friend, and we saw everyone on Sub stack was doing these live one hour streams. So we thought we would do a comedy show. So we started doing these 1015, minute comedy shows live on substack, and they became very popular. And a lot of you know big authors like Walter Reed, Robin wilding, who would be very popular on that website came on as guest, and it's kind of this new outlet where everything leads back to teaching, where I'm learning about video editing now and how to reach an audience, and then straight away, with peak English, I said, Okay, so that's that. Now I know more about how the internet works, so now open up a Tiktok and an Instagram and, you know, focus that into peak English. So our Instagram account now is growing. It's got close to 1000 followers, and our Tiktok is just open. So, yeah, going to use what I learned from sub stack to reach more students give more tips on how to pass exams on other social platforms. Michael Hingson ** 39:12 Okay, and you've, you've created some fictional characters along the way, haven't you? Peter William Murphy ** 39:20 Yeah, I have Peter and Freeman, who have a small little cult following on on substack, kind of based on a relationship I have with a friend of mine and my brother and I. My brother has done the Olympics. He's done the not as an athlete, but he's worked for Warner Brothers and other companies, doing the filming of it, and we're both very much in the film. We're working on a script, and we're trying to develop something at the moment together. Of course, our day jobs are our main focus, but it's very nice to have a similar interest with your brother, that you can just work. Worked on together, you know, Michael Hingson ** 40:01 yeah, well, you know, back in the days of old radio, there was a ven Troy lacherist, Edgar Bergen, who had his creature, Charlie McCarthy. And it was interesting that a lot of times Charlie spoke for Edgar. Edgar would, would would communicate through Charlie, as opposed to just communicating himself, and it was a way that he felt comfortable doing, which was interesting. Peter William Murphy ** 40:32 Yeah, that's interesting with Murphy's Law, which is my medium pending, after about a year and a half, I, you know, I said I can't keep writing about the island or this or that, or memoirs. I have to try grow as a writer. So I started trying different styles. I started writing a satire. I started writing a political satire or just pure comedy pieces. And lo and behold, I was okay at it, and they gained traction, and they were funny. And this is strange, so then Murphy's law went to kind of satire. And then I started writing about politics, say what's happening in the USA, the friction over there, some other world events. And I enjoyed it. The editors liked it, and it was published in some very good publications. And it was great. I found many voices, you know, but as time went on, and I love medium, and I love substack, it's, it's my passion, and it has helped me grow, not just as a writer, but as I mentioned earlier, helped me hone all the skills I use that become, you know, big enough on it into how I can create this business that my wife and I try to open up, and it has really helped. But you are always chasing the algorithm, you know, and I would rather have a product out there that helps people, you know, pass their exams, give them guidance with these as, you know, do volunteer work, things like that, that will actually help people. And people will remember it as peak English, as a brand that will help them, because Murphy's Law and the exile files online, I love them, and they are my babies, but they are very much passion projects that, like Reunion Island, have helped me figure out what I want to do. You know? Michael Hingson ** 42:58 Yeah, well now you talk about Murphy's Law. And of course, we all know Murphy's Law is, if anything can go wrong at will. But there was a book written years ago that was called Murphy's Law and other reasons why things go wrong. And the first, I think I've heard of that, and the first thing in the book after Murphy's Law was o'toole's commentary on Murphy's Law, which was, Murphy was an optimist. I always thought was cute. I like that. Murphy was an optimist. Peter William Murphy ** 43:30 Well, it's, you know, I think in life, like you said yourself, when, when that terrible day happens in the World Trade Center, it was like you could either lose your mind or you stay calm, you know. And no, I think, I think everybody, kind of you know, can learn from that, from learn from your book, that you just have to keep going moving forward. People react differently to different you know, setbacks like I mentioned, with the leg break and the bar closing another young man, it might, it might not have affected them at all. They would have said, It's okay. I just kept going. But it just so happened that it affected me that way. And you my brother, for example, he stuck it out. He stayed in Ireland, and he he did it so it's it really does depend on the person and how they how one can deal with what life throws at you. Some people think it was like it was the best thing I ever did, but looking back on it, like I wouldn't change it, but looking back on it, I would have liked to have done it, maybe in a calmer way. Michael Hingson ** 44:56 The other the other side of that though, is that. So there are a lot of things that happen around us, and we don't have any control over the fact that they happen as such, but we absolutely have control over how we deal with what happened, and I think that's what so many people miss and don't, don't deal with and the reality is that we can always make choices based on what goes on around us, and we can do that and and that can be a positive thing, or it can be a negative thing, and that's a choice that we have To make. Peter William Murphy ** 45:37 Yeah, you're dead, right? Yeah, I, when I first came to Turkey, I was only supposed to be here for three months, you know, but there was something intoxicating about the country. There just the smell, the food people and I about six months into my stay here, back in 2013, or 14, like I did, have that decision where I had to kind of look at myself saying, Am I staying here because I'm running away, or am I staying here because I feel this is where I can achieve what I want to achieve. And I stayed because I felt this was like the environment where I could kind of deal with myself and kind of deal with life, and, you know, just be who I wanted to be, not that I couldn't do that in Ireland, but just the 24 year old version of myself. That's what like he was thinking, you know? And I got to respect that, Michael Hingson ** 46:46 sure. And the other part about it, though, is that you you at least ask yourself the question, and you really took the responsibility to try to make a decision and come up with an answer, which is what a lot of people avoid doing. Peter William Murphy ** 47:01 I wrote out the pros and cons on a piece of paper. I still have that piece of paper under your bed, and went up to the top of the mountain. There's, there's a huge mountain next to the city here. I'd go up there every day, but I just sat down and I just stared at the piece of paper. And there was just something where I said, you know, I have to try and become something here, you know, because if I can become something, even if it's something small, like something, you know, as humble, as just being a language teacher or helping one person or two people, it doesn't matter if I can do that here, then it would have been worth it. Yeah, of course. If time goes on, you learn more, you become stronger, you become more educated, you become trained. And then if you just keep going, no matter how you know down the dumps you were in the past, if you just keep going, one day, you will wake up and you will know exactly who you are and what you're supposed to do, and that's kind of what Turkey and Reunion Island gave to me. Michael Hingson ** 48:10 Do you think that as you were growing up and so on, that the system failed you? Peter William Murphy ** 48:18 I do remember one time. And I have to preface this for saying that I hold nothing against this person, but I remember I went to the psychologist or counselor in, I won't name the university, and the university I went to and and I didn't know them at all, and I sat down and I told them I was struggling with mental health. And, you know, there was, I'm not saying anything now like but there was a lot of young men taking their own lives in Ireland around this time, a lot and women, and I wasn't like that at all, but I was feeling down, and I wanted to see what the university could do for me. And I remember just being turned away saying, Come back next Tuesday, you know, at 405 and I did find it very hard to kind of like communicate and get help in university through Washington, like I didn't need directions on how to get to the Lacher hall or anything like that. I knew all that, but there was something else going on that I needed help with, and there, it wasn't there at all. Since then, of course, in the last 1516, years, Ireland is, you know, I suggest mental health capital of the world. But when, when I was there, maybe, maybe I just caught them on a bad day. Michael Hingson ** 49:58 Yeah, hard to say. But the. Other part about it is look at what you've done since then, and look how you talk about it today, which really illustrates a lot of resilience on your part. And I'm sure that that's something that had to develop over time, but you still did it, and you became a more resilient individual because of all of that. Peter William Murphy ** 50:22 Yeah, I'd say I've got that for my mom and dad. They're very resilient. But also that resilience has changed from, you know, booking a one way ticket to reunion and, you know, just doing all that crazy stuff, then go ahead and stand ball bus rides around Turkey, not knowing where I'm going, not having money, not enough for rent, all this kind of stuff. But it's changed because I remember I got a job partnering with a recruitment company that's based in Amsterdam, and I remember just willy nilly booking the flight over to Amsterdam, and just kind of, I just gotten married, and I Michael. I was not resilient at all. I did not want to go, I did not want to travel, I wanted to be at home with my wife, you know what I mean? And so I definitely got softer in other ways. So your resilience does change. It becomes more kind of a mental toughness than, say, that kind of young book physical resilience that you had when you were younger. It completely switches. Michael Hingson ** 51:32 Yeah, well, and I think resilience is, is really, to a large degree about the whole concept of, well, mental toughness, or maybe the ability to look at what you're doing and going through and being able to make a decision about how to proceed, I think that's really kind of more of it than anything else, right, right? And so resilience, I think, as oftentimes, it's a term that's overused, but the reality is, I think what resilience really is is your ability to keep things whoever you are, keep things in perspective, and be able to step back and ask the tough questions of yourself and listen to your inner self and get the answers that you need. Yes. Peter William Murphy ** 52:25 If that makes sense. It does. It makes perfect sense. Just gotta keep going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson ** 52:35 You do have to keep going, and it's kind of important to do that, but you've had a lot of different things that you've done. You know, you've been, you're an author, by the way. Do you still make drinks anywhere? Peter William Murphy ** 52:51 No, I just at home, right away home. Good for you. Yeah? Yeah, we it's a drinking God. Drinking is such a funny one. It's something that just, I don't know, dissolved from my life. When I aged 30, I didn't become a teetotaler or anything like that. Like I'll still have red wine and I'll be here with friends, but I rarely touch the stuff. And I think it's mostly due to the fact that I start work so early in the morning, you know, and I just cannot wake up with any sort of grogginess. I leave black coffee, you know, look at the news for 20 minutes, pet my cat, take a shower and then start, yeah. Michael Hingson ** 53:42 Well, my wife and I used to have a drink on Friday night. I mean, we're capable. We were capable of going to restaurants and parties and occasionally have something. But I know since she passed in 2022 we were married 40 years. I part of honoring her is that I have a drink on Friday night. One drink. I don't because I've never nice. I've never really felt that I need to have alcohol or anything like that. I've never been a great fan of the taste, but I have a drink to honor her on Friday night. So that's kind of fun. Peter William Murphy ** 54:21 Yeah, that's very nice. I mean, we it's my wife's birthday in two days, actually, so I'm very lucky. She's very she's like me in a way. I want to take her to a nice, fancy restaurant, or to do this and do that, but she just wants a chicken burger. And hello, yeah, so we just go out to our favorite restaurant. And you know, they're good burgers. They're pretty gourmet, but yeah, she's pretty down to earth with me. And yeah, we have a lot of fun together. And yeah. But I'm currently planning her birthday presents as as I'm speaking to you. Michael Hingson ** 55:07 If you could go back and talk to a younger Peter, what would you what would you tell them? What would you want them to learn? Peter William Murphy ** 55:15 Oh, I would tell him to go straight to a to talk to somebody, yeah, just to go straight to talk to somebody, that's the biggest thing. I had an interview where I was the host yesterday with a man who does Astro photography, and one of his, you know, other projects he does. He's a recovering alcoholic. Where he's he really talks about, you know, men talking to other men too, like, if your friend call, pick up, always speak. Tell people what's going on. Of course, don't nag people and to tell them every problem you have, but if you're down into dumps, you should talk to somebody. So anybody who's like young, you know, late, late teens coming up, should definitely talk to someone straight away, because I think a few simple sentences from a professional could have saved me a lot of let's call them headaches in the future, all Michael Hingson ** 56:28 too often we the way we're taught. We just don't get encouraged to do that, do we? Peter William Murphy ** 56:34 No, no. People listen. People are good. People will do what they can. But I think sometimes, I think the way it's framed maybe scares men. I think we're a lot better now, but maybe 1015, years ago, and even before that, trying to get a kid to, you know, talk to professional, nobody wants to be different in that way. You know, back then anyway and but it's so healthy. It's so good to have someone who can regurgitate back what you've just told them, but in a clear, calm fashion that you know makes sense. It does the world of good. It's, it's, it's better than medicine Michael Hingson ** 57:27 for most. Puts a lot of things in perspective, doesn't it? It does, yeah, which, which makes a lot of sense. Well, yeah, I think this has been great. I've very much enjoyed having the opportunity to talk with you and and and hear a lot of great life lessons. I hope everyone who is out there listening to us appreciates all the things that you had to say as well. If anybody wants to reach out to you, how do they do that? Peter William Murphy ** 57:57 Well, we're on Instagram as peak English. We're also on Tiktok as peak English, Michael Hingson ** 58:04 peak as in P, E, A, K, that's right Peter William Murphy ** 58:07 behind me here. So if anybody can see it's there's the spelling on my wallpaper. Michael Hingson ** 58:14 And, yeah, a lot of people probably aren't watching videos, so that's why I asked you to spell Peter William Murphy ** 58:19 it. Yeah? Well, actually, I'm blocking it, so I moved out of the way. There Michael Hingson ** 58:23 you go. Well, I won't see it, Peter William Murphy ** 58:27 yeah, so I Yeah. So that's the best way to get in contact with me. You can Google me. Peter William Murphy, medium writer, I pretty much on the top of the lid, if you're interested in writing, also the exile files. And we're also on YouTube with the exile files, so there's lots of stuff going on. This is an English speaking audience, so I'm assuming nobody's going to want lessons from me. So if you're interested in my writing, check out medium and sub stack. And if you know anybody of friends who needs English, tell them about peak English, and I will help you. Michael Hingson ** 59:11 There you go. Well, I don't know, there may be people who aren't the greatest English speakers listening who, who might reach out. Well, I hope that they do, and I hope they appreciate all that you've offered today. I really appreciate you coming on and spending an hour with us. I hope that all it's an honor. Oh, it's been fun. And I would say to all of you out there, I'd love to hear what your thoughts are. Feel free to email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, love to hear from you. I'd love to hear your thoughts wherever you're listening. I hope that you'll give us a five star rating. We really appreciate your ratings and your reviews and Peter for you and for all of you, if you know anyone who ought to be a. Guest on the podcast. We're always looking for people to come on and tell their stories, so don't hesitate to provide introductions. We love it. We really appreciate you all doing that. And again, Peter, I just want to thank you for for coming on. This has been a lot of fun today. 1:00:14 Thank you so much. It's pleasure to speak with you. **Michael Hingson ** 1:00:23 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

united states america god american new york university tiktok canada children europe english google uk china master washington lessons france england olympic games law new york times zoom ireland mom brazil irish hospitals turkey island adhd blind medium choices paradise amsterdam chile drinking ambassadors raised thunder stitcher saudi arabia qatar warner bros ebooks substack unstoppable gofundme southwest compare puts istanbul turkish worked freeman ratings palm notable rick and morty rutgers university astro madagascar world trade center angola cork alamo ernest hemingway indian ocean american red cross graduated vivid big change hunter s thompson national federation rl lacher matt stone hells meadowlands trey parker walter reed ielts be with you michael h peter murphy hoteliers tefl exxon mobile chief vision officer federal express scripps college east boston island adventure charlie mccarthy edgar bergen reunion island michael hingson william murphy county limerick west roxbury accessibe i yeah american humane association thunder dog i michael hero dog awards jack hennessy

From Felix Computer Over Transylvania JUG to CodeBuild

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 12, 2025 52:36

An airhacks.fm conversation with Gabriel Pop (@vwggolf3) about: Romanian communist-era Felix HC91 computer with Z80 processor and 64KB RAM, learning programming through Basic and cassette tape storage, attending specialized informatics high school class in northern Romania, teachers from former communist computing center, learning Pascal and building word-guessing game for graduation project, pressure and competitiveness in academic environment, entering Cluj-Napoca Technical University computer science program as second-ranked student, studying in English-taught program, learning Java through Bruce Eckel's Thinking in Java book, working as Java developer during university using German method names for Frankfurt-based company, using Struts framework with Hibernate and JSPs for web development, joining Betfair.com as early employee in Romanian office, founding Transylvania Java User Group in 2008 with iconic Dracula-themed Duke logo, organizing 60+ meetups with 120-150 regular attendees, receiving support from international JUG leaders like Antonio Gonçalves and Michael Hüttermann, transitioning to engineering leadership roles, working at various companies including Uber Amsterdam managing cash payment systems, health tech startup using PHP, Catawiki marketplace using Ruby on Rails, currently working at AWS on CodeBuild and CodePipeline, discussing need for corretto 25 support in AWS services, importance of Java LTS versions for developers Gabriel Pop on twitter: @vwggolf3

Episode 378 – Unstoppable Voices: How Walden Hughes Keeps Old Time Radio Alive

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 10, 2025 64:31

If you love great storytelling, you'll connect with this conversation. I sit down with Walden Hughes, a man whose Unstoppable passion has kept Old Time Radio alive for decades. As the voice behind YESTERDAY USA and a driving force with REPS, Walden has dedicated his life to preserving the art, sound, and soul of classic radio. We talk about what made those early shows so timeless, the craft of the actors, the power of imagination, and how simple audio could create entire worlds. Walden also shares how modern technology, archives, and community support are bringing these programs to new audiences. This conversation is about more than nostalgia. It's about keeping storytelling alive. Walden reminds us that great radio never fades and that imagination will always be Unstoppable. Highlights: 00:10 – Discover why Old Time Radio still captures the imagination of listeners today. 01:19 – Hear how the end of an era shaped the way we think about storytelling. 02:32 – Learn what made the performances and production of classic radio so unique. 04:25 – Explore how legendary shows left a lasting influence on modern audio. 05:16 – Gain insight into what separates timeless audio drama from today's versions. 08:32 – Find out how passion and purpose can turn nostalgia into something new. 12:15 – Uncover the community that keeps classic radio alive for new generations. 16:20 – See how creativity and teamwork sustain live radio productions. 24:48 – Learn how dedication and innovation keep 24/7 classic broadcasts running. 33:57 – Understand how listener support helps preserve the magic of radio history. 37:38 – Reflect on why live storytelling still holds a special kind of energy. 41:35 – Hear how new technology is shaping the future of audio storytelling. 46:26 – Discover how preservation groups bring lost performances back to life. 50:29 – Explore the process of restoring and protecting rare audio archives. 55:31 – Learn why authenticity and care matter in preserving sound for the future. About the Guest: From a young age, Walden Hughes developed a lifelong love for radio and history. Appearing in documentaries on “Beep Baseball,” he went on to collect more than 50,000 old-time radio shows and produce hundreds of live nostalgic broadcasts. His work celebrates radio's golden era through events, celebrity interviews, and re-creations performed nationwide. His deep family roots reach back to early American history — from a Mayflower ancestor to relatives who served in major U.S. wars — shaping his respect for storytelling and legacy. With degrees in economics, political science, and an MBA in finance, he built a successful career in investments before turning his passion into purpose. As general manager and producer for Yesterday USA and longtime board member of SPERDVAC, he's preserved classic entertainment for future generations. Honored with awards like the Herb Ellis and Dick Beals Awards, he continues to consult for icons like Kitty Kallen and the Sinatra family, keeping the voices of radios past alive for audiences today. Ways to connect with Walden: Cell: 714/454-3281 Email: waldenhughes@yesterdayusa.com or www.yesterdayusa.com Live shows are Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights beginning at 7:30 PDT. About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Wherever you are listening from, we're really glad you're here, and we are going to have a guest who we've had on before we get to have him on again, and we're going to grill him really good. I want you to remember that a few weeks ago, we talked to Walden Hughes. And Walden is a collector of old radio shows. He's been very involved with organizations that help promote the hobby of old radio shows, and old rate Old Time Radio, as I do, and I thought it would be kind of fun to have him back, because there are a number of events coming up that I think are very relevant to talk about, and so we're going to do that. So Walden, welcome back to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Michael, been such a long time, and glad you invited me back. Well, I know it's been so long well, so tell me, let's, let's go back again. You know, radio people talk about the golden days of radio, or the time of old radio. When do we think that? When do we say that officially ended, although I think it went beyond Walden Hughes ** 02:29 it. I though I jumped 30th, 1962, I'm, yeah, I I think the style changed a little bit, I'm probably a romantic somewhat. I love the style of old time radio. I love how it sound. Yeah, I think in in the 3040s and 50s, the studios and the theater that they use sounded great for radio, and it disturbed me, and I bet you have the same feeling, Michael, that when you get new production and new the new studio, it just doesn't sound right. I feel the equilibrium is not quite the way. I love old time radio. I think Old Time Radio A prime web. I think a lot of new productions out there that, you know, release their podcasts and things on a weekly basis. I think they're handicapped. They just don't have the budget to really create and build a studio the way I think it should be, that if they have, it sound just natural and just right. Michael Hingson ** 03:43 And I think that's part of it, but I think the other part of it is that people today don't seem to know how to act and create the same kind of environment with their voice that Old Time Radio actors did in the 30s, 40s and 50s and into into the early 60s, even we had Carl Amari on several weeks ago. And of course, one of the things that Carl did was, did complete recreations of all of the Twilight Zone shows. And even some of those are, are they sound sort of forced? Some of the actors sound forced, and they they haven't really learned how to sound natural in radio like some of the older actors do. Walden Hughes ** 04:34 Yeah, and I know Bob we call did it for a bike I get thrown off when he generally way. Did have the highway stars remote end, and he had a Stock Company of Chicago after, and I could hear the equilibrium just not quite right. That bothers me. I don't know if the average person picks up on that, and you're right. I don't know if. Is it the style of acting that they teach in film and TV? It needs a radio acting different in a lot of ways, and you got it as you point. It's got to be realistic into the environment. And actors don't get that for radio, Michael Hingson ** 05:25 yeah, and you talked about the last day for you of real radio was September 30, 1962 and we should probably explain why that is Walden Hughes ** 05:36 diet throughout the CBS your Troy John and suspense as the two main keys of old time radio. And that was the last day of old time radio out of New York. And I hardcore Lacher sister. Think that's one radio Shane died per se Michael Hingson ** 05:58 Gunsmoke and Have Gun Will Travel were gone, right, Walden Hughes ** 06:01 and the soap operas ended in November 2560 I like soap operas. I know a lot of people do not, but there's something can't there's something campy about it that I like. I would, I would like, I prefer to listen to somebody also proper than do some of the new production and make sure the acting style, Michael Hingson ** 06:27 but I think there's a lot to do with it that that makes that the case. And I think you're absolutely right that so many things are different, but at the same time, radio did sort of continue. And there was, there were some good shows zero hour, the Hollywood radio theater that Rod Serling did later. And of course, NPR did Star Wars. Walden Hughes ** 06:58 And I like that I did. Michael Hingson ** 07:02 Yeah, I think that was done pretty well. And what do you think of CBS mystery theater? Honestly, CBS mystery theater, I thought that generally, CBS mystery theater had some good actors, and they did a pretty good job. I I can't complain too much about that, and it was on for a long time. Walden Hughes ** 07:18 But what do you think of the script, though? Michael Hingson ** 07:22 Well, part of the problem for me and CBS mystery theater is, and I'm sure it was a cost issue. There weren't very many people in most of the scripts. There was like two or three or so and and that was a problem. But I think that that the scripts suffered because there weren't more people in the scripts to really make it again sound pretty natural. I think that was a problem. Walden Hughes ** 07:52 Yeah, Hyman Brown really knew how to crank it out. I think it has a good, solid B production, you know, the scripts. And I think the scripts are quite hampered. You couldn't, actually couldn't knock the actors. I thought the actors were Mercedes McCambridge and all those were terrific actors, but you're right. Sam dam wrote a lot of them, yeah, and things like that. But I Michael Hingson ** 08:21 think, I think they would have been nicer to have more people in the scripts. But I understand that, that that probably was more difficult to do just because of union and scale and the cost. But gee, I think it would have made a big difference in the shows. But Hyman Brown really knew, as you said, How to crank them Walden Hughes ** 08:39 out. Yeah, that's why, in some ways, I think the series, radio theater, the way 70 is a it's a terrific series. Didn't have the financial backing to make it last longer than the two years I was Michael Hingson ** 08:52 on. Now, one show I really liked on in PR later was alien world, which I thought was good. I'd never heard any of them, so they were good, yeah, yeah, okay. I'm very happy with alien worlds. There were some actors from radio and in early television and so on. Hans con read, for example, was on some, yeah, I thought alien worlds went really well. I guess we're gonna have to get you some and get you to lose, Okay, interesting. Walden Hughes ** 09:21 I just got done taking a eight week course on entrepreneurship for disabled people, and my idea is to pitch that we should be doing audio theater as a podcast. I think if it's big enough, it attracts national sponsors. And if you look at the numbers, everybody podcasting, 135 million people in the USA download a podcast once a week. Revenue, $2.46 billion yeah. Worldwide, 5 billion people download a podcast once a week. Revenue, three. $4 billion and so she had a well known he had a podcast with well known stars. I think she could get that 1% in that market, and then you can generate between the 24 to 40 million, $40 million in revenue a year. That would easily sure be a good financial model, and that's what I'm pitching. But when I went to the court, they asked me what to analyze, what's wrong with my what obstacles I have. And one of the things I put down is besides the studio we talked about and the acting, which a really good actor, actress, everybody, like a Beverly Washburn can pick up a script and knock it out of the park right away. Most actors are not able to do that. That's a real gift, as Michael was pointing out. But the other thing most scripts are written for film and TV, which is a verbal which is a eye medium, and a radio script is written for the ear, and I have produced enough the ear is faster than the eye. If you take like a TV script and a book and read it out loud, the mind wander. It has to have a faster pace for the ear. And I don't think more people notice that when they're analyzing a script, Michael Hingson ** 11:31 yeah, but you you're sort of treading around the edges of something else. I think that is fascinating, that we can start to talk about one of the things that has occurred some over the past few years, and whether it be with a podcast or even just with the mechanisms we're using today, is there are some attempts to recreate some of the old radio shows and and you and I have both Well, we Have to get you acting in one of those shows, Walden. But I have, I've acted in the shows Walden works behind the scenes, and there are a number of people who have been involved with him. And you really can tell some of the good actors who performed in old radio as you said, Beverly Washburn, Carolyn Grimes and others. Carolyn, of course, is Zuzu from It's A Wonderful Life, and by the way, she's going to be coming on unstoppable mindset in the not too distant future. But, but the point is that you can tell those people because they've done it, and they're very comfortable with it, and they know how to make it come across really well. So for example, you're the president of the radio enthusiasts of Puget Sound. Now you're down here in Southern California. How did you work out being the president of reps? Walden Hughes ** 13:01 Why my closest friends a hobby, Brian Haygood, and Brian's been one of the big movers and shakers of reps over the years. And when the founder, Mike Sprague, decided to step down, they were looking for new people to run showcase back in 2007 so Brian asked me, because I'm the one that has the contacts, you know, I'm the one booking guests for y USA rep, I'm sure the go to person with contacts and phone numbers, everybody. And so I just wound up doing the CO produced showcase back in 2007 with Brian. So that's been one of the things I wound up doing. 13:50 I produce Walden Hughes ** 13:52 almost 30 923, or four days events of All Time Radio around the country. So tell us about showcase, showcase. It will be September 18, 19/20, 21st is a big event for us, for reps, and we got funding thanks to Ford culture and the state of Washington to do this. And it's free. You can go to reps online.org, and RSVP and come. And people that you get to see this time around are Beverly Washburn from Star Trek, when the bear ministry shows, yeah, when, when the bear man a good, solid voice actress, and also is a coach. Carolyn Grimes, as you mentioned, Margaret O'Brien, of course, you know Margaret from Oscar war winner from meet me in St Louis, Gigi Perot, and she goes back to the 40s and 50s. And did the belly hunting TV show, Tommy cook and Lacher Riley, a radio show. Ivan Kirk. Troy. Bobby Benson. Bill Owen, who you had on ABC TV announcer, author of The Big broadcast, Ron cocking. He and his great wife, Gloria Macmillan ran acting school for children. Michael Hingson ** 15:15 Bill Ratner Miller, of course, is famous for radio. Walden Hughes ** 15:18 Right arm is Brooks. Bill Ratner from GI Joe. Bill Johnson, who does Bob Hope around the country. John provoke to Timmy Lacher. Chuck Daugherty, the announcer for second announcer for Sergeant president of the Yukon King and discover the Beach Boys. David Osman from fire sign theater. Phil prosper from fire sign theater. John Iman, who was from the TV show Lacher. And there was Larry Albert and John Jensen, the big band Lacher. John Laurie gasping, and Dan Murphy used to be the program director ki Xi out in Seattle. And so that's gonna be a great weekend. We'll produce close to it, I think, 1819 radio recreation that's still negotiating. And we have several interviews and panel. It's all free. So you can go to repsonline.org, and that's one of our two major events, the other major events at the Christmas show in December, the first week in December. I'm hoping Mike can make it up that Michael Hingson ** 16:31 weekend, I was hoping to be able to come to the Showcase. And one of my favorite shows, and Walden and I had talked about doing it, is Richard diamond private detective. And I actually asked to be cast as Richard diamond, but then a speaking engagement came up. So unfortunately, rather than being in Washington, I am going to be in Minnesota, I'm sorry, in Pennsylvania, speaking. So I won't be able to be there, but we'll do Richard diamond. That's gonna be a fun show one of these days. We'll do it. Walden Hughes ** 17:06 We'll put we put it aside. So when Mike can can do it, we can do it so but no, really blessed to have the financial grants to keep audio theater live on a nonprofit basis, and that that that's a great board, and cannot every group's had that financial abilities right now to do that, and it's so expensive around the country to do it, terms of airfare, hotel commitments and Just meeting room costs, I mean, for people who may or may not know, when you go to a hotel a live event now, a lot of hotels expect that that meeting room needs to generate at least $10,000 of income per day. That that's a lot of money. And so we have a place that doesn't, that doesn't do that, and we're able to produce that. And so rep definitely focus on the live, live audio theater part, and also has a large library, like 33,000 shows I heard where we have so people can download, and we're also aggressively buying discs and things to add to the library. And I remember spur back I part of and I'll tell you some of the latest news and that when we talk to that topic, but it's just old time radio is in really good Michael Hingson ** 18:41 shape at the moment. You mentioned Larry Albert, and most people won't know, but Larry Albert's been in radio for what, 40 years, and has played Detective Harry Niles that whole time, and he's also Dr Watson on Sherlock Holmes again, there are some really good professionals out there, which is cool, yeah, yeah, who understand and know how to talk in a way that really draws people in, which is what it's all about, Walden Hughes ** 19:15 absolutely. And considering Larry and a co founder, they run all vacations, sure, the after of imagination theater. Sure they carry the banner up in Seattle, and it's pretty amazing what they're able to produce. Michael Hingson ** 19:32 Yeah. Now, in addition to the Showcase and the Christmas show that reps is going to be doing, reps also does some other shows, don't they, during the year for like veterans and others up in the Seattle area, Tulsa, right? Walden Hughes ** 19:46 We I thought that idea down here at spur back in 2017 the Long Beach Veterans Hospital, they still have the original theme. Leader, Mike, that Jack Benny and Bob Hope did their shows in front of the Vets at Long Beach. And I know you and I have radio shows from the Long Beach Veterans Hospital. Yes, and the stage is still there. It's the biggest stage I've ever seen. Mike, the seating area is mobile, so that way they can bring patients in who are wheelchairs or whatever, or in bed. They still have the 1940 film projectors and booth up above that they want to run movies in there, and it's just a remarkable feeling to be on stage that Bob Hope and and Jack Bailey did a show, and then the famous broadcast were Ralph Edward consequences, yeah, the Hubert Smith, who was A patient at the hospital and and so in 2017 we did. It's a Wonderful Life. And we had a gigantic crowd. I think it was almost 200 people came to that. And I was for the public and people inside the hospital. And it was, it was a exciting event to have deluxe version of It's a Wonderful Life, which was the 70th anniversary of the broadcast, right? And so I decided to take that concept and take up to Seattle and start performing shows inside the VA hospital system in Seattle. It took a while. It's hard, it's hard to get into the VA, VA system to put on shows, because you got to talk to the right people, and you gotta get a hold of PR and not always easy. So I found the right contacts, and then the state awards, and then has a grant for for veterans or veteran family member to be in shows, and so we're able to get some funding from the state for that so, and then we will also encourage them to come to showcase in September so. But no, that's that's another program we got going for that, Michael Hingson ** 22:20 someone who I unfortunately never did get to meet, although I heard a lot of his shows, and he helped continue to bring memories of radio to especially the military. Was Frank brazzi, who was around for quite a while, and then he he was also on yesterday USA, a lot. Wasn't he sure where he's Walden Hughes ** 22:46 from, from 1993 until 2018 so he had a good 25 year run on why USA, Frank and I co host the Friday night show for many years, until he passed away in 2018 show from 2000 to 2018 Frank was amazing guy. He was. He owned his own radio station in South Carolina, South Carolina Island. When he was 19, he had to form the first tape course in Hollywood show Bob Hope would hire him, and he would record all Bob stuff at Paramount Studio and sit to radio station and travel with Bob to record his radio Show. He also was Jim Hawthorne producer for television, Frank wound up developing board games a pass out sold 6 million copies in the new wedding the dating game. He had a company that got gift for game shows on television. He also set up a brother in a company to monitor when commercials were run on TV. Frank also produced record albums every day. He had Walter Winchell record the life of Alex joelson. Met with Jimmy Durante, had Jimmy Durante do an album, Eddie Cantor and so frank is one of these great entrepreneurs that was able to make a lot of money and spend a lot of it on his love for radio. He was the substitute for little beaver, for example, on Red Rider so and he loved doing the show the golden days of radio, which started in 1949 and from 1967 on, it was part of the Armed Forces Radio Service, which was put on 400 stations. And I'm the, I'm the care caregiver, caretaker of. All that items. So I have all the shows and getting them transferred and play them on y USA and Frank wanted to make sure his entire collection was available to collectors. So we want to make sure things were copied and things like that for people to enjoy. But no big part of old time radio, in a lot of ways, not behind the scene a little bit. You know, wasn't a big name person during the golden days of radio, but afterwards, wound up being a major person that carried the fire Troy, full time radio. Michael Hingson ** 25:35 I know we talked about a little bit, but talk to us about yesterday, USA, that has been around quite a while, and in general, for those who don't know, yesterday, USA is an internet radio station, actually two, if you will. There's a red and a blue network of yesterday USA, and they both stations broadcast to old radio 24 hours a day, although conversations and up to date conversations are interspersed, it still primarily is a a vehicle for playing old radio shows, right? Walden Hughes ** 26:13 Yeah, been around since 1983 founded by its start. Yeah. Founded by Bill Bragg, Bill started the largest communication museum in the world back in 1979 in Dallas, Texas, and he had a film exchanger. And there was a TV station called a nostalgia channel, and it had these films of old TV shows, but they didn't have the media to transfer it, and so they contacted Bill. Bill agreed to transfer the film. He asked what it is exchanged for him. They said, we can give you an audio channel on satellite. And they gave that to him. And so he tried to decide what to do. So he started a broadcast Old Time Radio over satellite, and he was over the big C span satellite Speaker 1 ** 27:12 until Oh into the 2005 Walden Hughes ** 27:16 era or so. Wound up being the audio shop carrier for WGN got it high in 2000 at the third most popular internet broadcast site in the world, behind the BBC and CNN around the Lacher saw around 44 that's not too bad, with 15,000 stations online. Michael Hingson ** 27:41 I remember, I remember it was probably like 1998 or so, maybe 97 we were living in New Jersey, and I was doing something on my computer. And I don't even remember how I discovered it, but suddenly I found yesterday, USA, and at that time, yesterday, USA was one channel, and people could become DJs, if you will, and play old radio shows. You could have an hour and a half slot. And every other week you updated your broadcast, and they put on your shows at different times during the the two week period. But it was a wave that, again, a lot of people got an opportunity to listen to radio, and I'm sure it was very popular. Walden Hughes ** 28:32 Yeah, yeah, if they'll to Lacher show, we don't, we don't get 40,000 to 60,000 listening hours a month, with it a lot, because a lot, maybe some people might listen to seven minutes, some might people listen to a half hour and all that accumulative, it's almost 60,000 hours a month. So that's a lot of hours that people are accessing in it, there's something nice about being alive. I don't know what you think Mike, but doing something live is pretty special, and that's, that's the nice thing about what yesterday USA can provide, and we can talk, take calls, and then, you know, in the old days, you have more and more people talk about Old Time Radio. No doubting, but a lot of new people don't have those memories, so we we might do some other things to keep it interesting for people to talk about, but it's still the heart and soul. Is still old time radio in a lot of ways, and we're definitely the fiber, I think for new people to find old time radio. 29:43 How did you get involved with it? Walden Hughes ** 29:47 I became aware of it in the early 80s when sperback mentioned it in the news trailer, so I knew it's out there. And I called, and Bill returned my call. I said, I would like my cable TV. A company to play it, and I contacted my cable TV. They couldn't get to that channel that was on the satellite, so they put big band music on those dead on the community board. And so at the same time as you about 1998 I had a good enough computer with a good enough sound card I could pick up yesterday, USA. I was aware of it. It started on the internet in 1996 I started to listen, and then I would sort of call in around 2000 they would ask a question Bill and Mike and not really know the answer, so I will quickly call and give the answer, then leave. Eventually, they realized that I knew kitty Cowan, the big band, singer of the 40s and 50s. They asked me to bring on and do the interview, which we did September 17 of 2000 and then they asked, Could I do interviews on a regular basis? And so when a kiddie friend who I knew, Tess Russell, who was Gene Autry's Girl Friday, who ran kmpc for the audience, that was the station with the stars down the road, easy listening music, Michael Hingson ** 31:21 golden broadcasting, and that was the station Gene Autry owned, yep. Walden Hughes ** 31:26 And I think everybody in the music business but the old touch rush all favor. So she she hooked up, she signed up. She gave me set book 17 guests for me, right away from Joe staff or the Troy Martin to Pat Boone Patti Page, who wrote them all out. So I had a major start, and then I started to contact people via letters, celebrities and things. And I think it's a really good batting average. Mike, I had a success rate of 20% Wow. Wish it was a person that didn't I had no contact with that I could turn into a guess. I always thought I was a pretty good batting average. Yeah, and I got Margaret Truman that way. I mean, she called me, said, Wong, I forgot I did this radio show with Jimmy Stewart. She did jackpot, you know, the screen director of Playhouse. And we talked about her time on The Big Show with Tallulah Bankhead. They said, a big help with Fred Allen to her. She we talked about she hosted a show, NBC show called weekday with what the weekday version of monitor was, Mike Wallace. And she talks about how Mike had a terrible temper, and if he got upset with the engineer, she has to grab his jacket and pull him back in his chair just to try to cool them off. And so we had a great time with Margaret O'Brien, Margaret Truman, but, but I always thought that would a pretty good bat Navy getting 20% and in those days, in early 2000 a lot of celebrities would be were willing to interact with the through the website, with you, and so I did that. So I booked hundreds of celebrity interviews over the years, and so it's been a, I think, an important part what I do is trying to preserve people's memories, right that way we have the recordings. Michael Hingson ** 33:43 And so how long was Bill with yesterday, USA. Walden Hughes ** 33:49 I passed away in 2019 so Bill from 83 to 2019, to us, 10 years or so of his wife, though he had Michael Hingson ** 34:05 Alzheimer's and dementia, and so you could tell he was he was sounding older, yeah, and Walden Hughes ** 34:11 he wasn't behind the scene. He was really erratic in a lot of ways. So Kim, Kim and I wound up his wife, and I wound up running the station for the last 10 years, behind the scene, okay, Bill wasn't able to do it, and so I would be the one handling the interaction with the public and handling the just jockeys, and Kim would do the automation system and do the paperwork. So she and I pretty much ran the station. 34:43 And now you do Walden Hughes ** 34:45 it, I do it, yeah, and so I think Bill always had in mind that I'd be the one running the station in a lot of ways. And think to the listeners, we've been able to pay the bills enough to keep it. Going, I would love to generate more income for it. Michael Hingson ** 35:03 Well, tell us about that. How are you doing the income generation? And so most of it is through Walden Hughes ** 35:09 a live auction that we have in November this year, will be on Saturday, November 22 and people donate gift cards or items, and people bid on it, or people donate, and that money we basically use to help pay the monthly bills, which are power bills and phone bills and things like that, and so, which is a remarkable thing. Not every internet radio station has a big enough fan base to cover the cost, and so all the internet stations you see out there, everybody, the owners, sort of really have to pull money out of their own pocket. But why USA been around long enough, it has enough loyal following that our listenership really kicks in. I mean, we built a brand new studio here with the with the audience donating the funds, which is pretty remarkable. You know, to do that, Michael Hingson ** 36:16 yeah, you got the new board in, and it's working and all that. And that's, a good thing. It really is. Well, I have been a listener since I discovered y USA. When we moved out to California for a while, I wasn't quite as active of a listener, but I still worked at it as I could. But then we moved down here, and then after Karen passed, was easier to get a lot more directly involved. And so I know I contribute to the auction every year, and I'm gonna do it again this year. Walden Hughes ** 36:49 So would you, when you were after what you knew, why you said, Did you did you come with your question still quite a bit when you were working and traveling all the time over the years. Michael Hingson ** 37:01 Oh, yeah, yeah, oh, I did a lot of times, and still, do I listen to some internet radio stations? Why USA among them when I travel, just because when I go to a new hotel, sometimes I can make the TV work, and sometimes I can't, but also sometimes finding the stations that I want to listen to is a little bit more of a challenge, whereas I can just use my my smartphone, my iPhone, and I've got a number of stations programmed in the only time I have had A little bit of a challenge with some of that is when I travel outside the US, sometimes I can't get direct access to some of the stations because of copyright laws. They don't they don't allow them to be broadcast out of the US, but mostly even there, I'm able to do it. But I do like to listen to old radio when I travel, typically, not on an airplane, but when I when I land, yes, yeah. Walden Hughes ** 38:08 I think that's one thing that they ended up taking over. I think a lot of people grew up listening to the radio. Enjoy the uniqueness of radio station had. I don't know if you see that today, but I think the internet have replaced that. Michael Hingson ** 38:24 Well, somewhat, I've seen some articles that basically say that there is a lot more shortwave listening and actual radio listening to radio stations than there is through the internet, but there is an awful lot of listening to the radio stations through the internet as well, but people do still like to listen to radio. Walden Hughes ** 38:50 What do you think podcast? How you think podcasts fit in? I mean, you'd be hosting your own show. How you think that fit into the overall consumer questioning habit? Michael Hingson ** 38:59 Well, I think then, what's going on with podcasts is that, like with anything, there are some really good ones. There are a lot of people who just do do something, and it's not necessarily really great quality. They think they're doing great, and they maybe are, but, but I think that overall, podcasting is something that people listen to when they're running, when they're walking, when they're doing exercising, when they're doing something else, running on a treadmill or whatever, a lot More than listening to a radio program that probably requires a little bit more concentration. But make no mistake about it, podcasts are here to stay, and podcasts are very dominant in in a lot of ways, because people do listen to them Walden Hughes ** 39:56 a niche audience. So you find you find your audience who. Are looking for that particular topic, and so they tune into that their favorite podcast that they knew there really might be covering that topic. Michael Hingson ** 40:07 Sure, there is some of that. But going back to what you were talking about earlier, if you get some good audio drama, and I know that there are some good podcasts out there that that do some things with good drama, that will draw in a wider audience, and that gets to be more like radio and and I think people like radio. People like what they used to listen to, kids so much today, don't but, well, they never heard old they never heard radio. But by the same token, good acting and good drama and good podcasts will draw people in just like it always has been with radio. Walden Hughes ** 40:54 What I'm also noticing like the day the disc jockeys are, they somewhat gone. I mean, we grew up in an era where you had well known hosts that were terrific Dick jockey that kept you entertained. And I make it, I don't listen to too much because, for example, everybody the easy listening big band era, pretty much not in LA in the La radio market right now, right and I missed it. Michael Hingson ** 41:23 I miss it too. And I agree with you, I think that we're not seeing the level of really good radio hosts that we used to there are some on podcasts. But again, it is different than it used to be. And I think some podcasts will continue to do well and and we will see how others go as as time passes, but I think that we don't see a Gary Owens on television on radio anymore. We don't see Jim Lang or Dick Whittington and whitting Hill and all those people, we don't see any of that like we used to. And so even Sirius XM isn't providing as much of that as as it used to. Walden Hughes ** 42:20 And so what do you think AI is going to fit? I was listening to, I'm a sport fan, and Mike is a sport fan, so I like listening to ESPN and Fox Sports Radio. Michael Hingson ** 42:32 And I was listening to a discussion over the weekend that they are, they are working some of the immediate it to replace the play by play announcer they're working with. Ai, can I figure eventually that can be a caution. It to do away with all announcers. I'm not sure that's going to happen, because I don't know. It doesn't seem like it could. I'm not sure that that will happen. I think that even if you look at the discussions about audible and other organizations providing AI voices to read books, what people say, and I'm sure over time, this will change a little bit, but and I'll get back to the button in a moment, people Say, I would much rather have a human narrated book than an AI narrated book, and the reason is, is because AI hasn't captured the human voice. Yet you may have somebody who sounds like an individual person to a degree, but you don't have the same pauses, the same intonations, the same kind of thing with AI that you do with humans. Now, will that get better over time? Sure, it will. But will it get it to be as good as humans? I think that's got a long way to go yet, and I don't think that you're going to see AI really replacing people in that regard. I think AI's got a lot that it can do, but I actually had somebody on the podcast last year, and one of the things that he said is, AI will never replace anyone. People will replace people with AI, maybe, although that may or may not be a good thing, but nobody has to be replaced because of AI, because you can always give them other jobs to do. So for example, one of the discussions that this gentleman and I had were was about having AI when you have autonomous vehicles and you have trucks that can drive themselves, and so you can ship things from place to place, keep the driver in the truck anyway. And instead of the driver driving the vehicle, the driver can be given other tasks to do, so that you still keep that person busy. And you you become more efficient. And so you let i. I do the things that it can do, but there are just so many things that AI isn't going to do that I don't think that AI is ever going to replace humans. The whole point is that we make leaps that AI is not going to be able to do. Walden Hughes ** 45:15 Yeah, I think a good example in the audio book field, a really great reader can give you emotion and play the characters and make it realistic. And I don't know AI ever going to reach that point to bring emotions and feelings into a reading of story Michael Hingson ** 45:32 not the same way. And as I said, I've been involved or listened and watched discussions where people say, for example, I might use AI to read a non fiction book because I'm not really paying so much attention to the reader and I'm just getting the information. But when it comes to reading a fiction book, and when it comes to really wanting to focus on the reader, I don't want AI is what I constantly hear. I want a person, and I understand that, Walden Hughes ** 46:00 yeah, I think what you'll see AI, especially, take over the drive thru when people go to a fast food place. I can see AI replacing the interaction and trying to get those things corrected. I can see that Michael Hingson ** 46:14 maybe, maybe, I mean, you know some of that to a degree, but I think that people are still going to rule out in the end, for quite a while. Well, you know, in talking about all the different radio organizations, I know we talked about a little bit last night last time, but tell me about spurt back. Walden Hughes ** 46:36 Yeah, I can give you some new updates. Spoke actually been around to 1974 Michael Hingson ** 46:42 I remember when spurred back began a person who I knew, who was a listener to my radio program, Jerry Hindi, guess, was involved with with all of that. My problem with attending spurred back meetings was that it was they were way too far away from me at UC Irvine to be able to do it, but I joined by mail for a while, and, and, and that was pretty good. But by the same token, you know, it was there, Walden Hughes ** 47:11 it was there. And spur back. Have honored over 500 people who worked in the golden days of radio. A lot of district donated. They had the meetings in the conventions now we're evolving very quickly this year into more preservation work. So we have bought over $10,000 in computers here recently. We bought and we donated, actually, we won a prize, although the first Lacher disk turntables from Japan, which is over a $10,000 turntable, we'll be using that to help dub disc. And the board is just voted in. It's going to increase the board to at least 11 people next year who will have a carryover of the seven board member and we want to have no new board members. So maybe you and I can talk about that Mike for you to be on for next year, because we'll be definitely expanding the board with 11 one. So I think it'd be really strong in the preservation stuff, because perfect got 20 to 30,000 deaths that need to get out there. And with all your new equipment, it's amazing how full time radio sounds so good today terms of the new technology, and compare where I started collecting the 70 and I ran into a lot of even commercial stuff really muddy in those days. Mike, I bet you did too, and it's a remarkable difference. Spur back is planning to be at the Troy Boston festival next April, what does spread back? Stand for the society to preserve and encourage radio drama, variety and comedy. And you can go to spur back.com Join. You can go to repsonlect.org to join. And we then mentioned yesterday, USA. Yesterday usa.com or.net and can go there and listen away and participate in the auction, which will be coming up November 22 Yeah, very important to do as well. But anyway, I really think full time radio is in a really good spot. Mike. I think if it was for the internet, I don't know if we would find all the young people who are interested in it. I think it then it been a double edged sword. It knocked out a lot of dealers. You know, they used to make money selling their tapes and CDs and everything, and I bought a lot. I know you did too over the years, but those days are pretty. Pretty much done, and but if found a lot of new younger people to find the stations or find podcast and they get to learn about yesterday USA and Old Time Radio, and all the different radio ones more and all the different internet station are playing it until they can expose and I don't think that would have happened before the internet, so I think it'll always have it created a whole new listenership. Michael Hingson ** 50:30 I am still amazed at some of the things that I hear. I remember once when somebody found a whole bunch of old Petri wine sponsored Sherlock Holmes with basil, Rathbone and Nigel Bruce. They were horrible quality. Was it Chris who Walden Hughes ** 50:50 found? Yep, Chris one best founded me up and found me a bookstore. Michael Hingson ** 50:55 And the quality wasn't wasn't good at all, but they were remastered, and they sound incredible. They do how they do it, because I'd love to be able to do that with shows that I have, and like to remaster them. Walden Hughes ** 51:13 Yeah, what happened was, you know, they were two writers, green and Boucher, Lacher, Lacher, right, and Boucher was a famous bachelor Khan. The famous mystery convention is named after him. And Dennis Green was an actor on radio, and he was also a historian. He knew, like all everything about Sherlock Holmes. And so they created the new venture who saw a comb based upon maybe a scene from a previous right story and gets expanded upon it. And so when it when one of them passed away, the collection wound up in a bookstore in Berkeley, California, and crystal investor found out. And so there became a buying group led by John tough fellow, Kenny Greenwald, Dick Millen, Joey brewing and others, got in a bidding war with the Library of Congress, and they outbid and won. They paid $15,000 for the sets of Sherlock, Holmes and so and Shirley Boone was an NBC audio engineer and chief film engineer. He really knew how to dub, and so they they did a terrific job. And then they decided to put out a record album on their own with the first two episodes. And then after that, they decided to market it to Simon Schuster, and they decided to do small vignettes. They could copyright the vignette. These were quite three minutes introduction, so they would get Ben Wright, who wanted to always Sherlock Holmes and Peggy Webber in order to reminisce and or create little scenes to set up the stories that way they could copyright that part. They couldn't copyright the show because they fell in the public domain, right? But they wound up paying the estates of everybody anyway. But that's what how they all came out, and they were hoping to do Gunsmoke. We talked to Kenny Greenwald and others, but that never, that never came off and but that's part of the remarkable thing that Karl Marx done. He's been able to get into CBS, and I think he's working on NBC, and he licensed them, so he'll be able to get into the vault and get more stuff out for all of it to enjoy. And that's an amazing thing that Carl drives for the hobby is to get new stuff out there. It's been locked away for all these years. Michael Hingson ** 53:53 I am just amazed at the high quality. I'd love to learn more about audio engineering to be able to do that, because I have a lot of recording I'd love to make a lot better than they are. Walden Hughes ** 54:05 Yeah, Jerry Henry used to use a software called Diamond Cut, ah, and I would the those originally was used for the Edison solder records. And the guy who issued this, Joe, they developed the software. And that's where Joe, hi, who did so much transfer work, that was the program he wound up using to create good sound, Michael Hingson ** 54:32 yeah, and, and did a lot of it, Walden Hughes ** 54:36 yep, see there, see, there was a software, everybody, I think original is hardware. And I think originally almost was a $50,000 piece of equipment, harder before 2000 now it's gone to software base and a couple $1,000 that's another way. That's another program that people use to clean disk. Now. Crackles and pop out of the recording. Michael Hingson ** 55:02 So but it's not just the snap crackle and pop. It's getting the the real fidelity back, the lows and the highs and all that you said, what was the one he used? Diamond Cut. Diamond Cut, yeah. Diamond Cut, yeah. But yeah. It's just amazing. The kinds of things that happen, like with the Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and and others. Walden Hughes ** 55:23 But you also have good ears for that. Because, yeah, I remember about 2025, years ago, it was serious. XM. Everybody has this stereo sound, I know, if you're shooting, has a certain ambiance about it. And there were companies that were taking old time radio and creating that same effect, and that could bug me. I was so used to listen to old radio show in an analog feel about it. And they when they try to put false stereo in a recording, yeah, oh my gosh. It just didn't sound right. And so they've gotten away from that pill, a lot of new dubbing. They do don't have that. So it sounds terrific now, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 56:15 sounds a lot better. What do you think is the future of the hobby? Walden Hughes ** 56:19 I think more and more stuff are coming out. A lot of stuff that were with agreements to hold on to the material have disappeared, because a lot of it is passing from generation to generation. And so I think over the next 10 years, you see so much more stuff coming out. In some ways, that's sort of what you John Larry and I do. We collect almost everything, just because you got to make sure it's captured for the for the next generation, even though we might not be listening to it. There's so much stuff we don't listen to do everything. But I think we're, we're short of the wide billions of old time radio so we try to capture all of it and preserve it on hard drives, yeah, but eventually it'll go to future generations. But I really think more and more stuff are coming out. I think with the yesterday USA, more and more people will find it. And I'm hoping, with creating new audio theater, I would like to reproduce the great radio scripts we have no recordings for, like one man, family, I love, a mystery, all those things. That's sort of what I want to do, is one of my goals. And I think be great to hear stories that we've all collected, that we wonder about, and to get audio production behind some of these scripts. And I think it's in very good shape. It will all come down to money, Michael, as you know, you know, Michael Hingson ** 57:58 but I also think that it's important that we, as we're recreating the shows, that while we can, we have people who understand what we really need for actors who are going to be recreating the shows, are able to find the right people to do it, train them how to do it. I think that's so important. Walden Hughes ** 58:19 I think so. I think, I think you find a lot of young people who like theater, who are not necessarily radio fan, if they came, if the radio fan, like Brian Henderson and people like that, they become really good actor because they love to listen to the shows ahead of time. Yeah. Beverly Washburn does the same. She likes hearing the original performances that way. She get field for me to the show. And I think you and I think Larry does it that way. And you might not necessarily want to copy everything, but you got a benchmark to work from, and you sort of know what, with the intent when Michael Hingson ** 59:01 you say Larry, which Larry? Larry Gasman, Walden Hughes ** 59:03 great, yeah. And I think that's a great help to study and listen how people did it, because I think a lot of old time radio, it's like the prime rib. It was the best of the best of all time of radio drama, and it's a great way to learn the craft, by listening to it and absorbing it. Michael Hingson ** 59:30 Well, if people want to reach out to you and maybe learn more about yesterday, USA or reps and just talk with you about radio, how do they do that, they can give me a Walden Hughes ** 59:41 call at 714-545-2071, that's my studio number for the radio stations. Lot of times I can, I'll pick it up and talk to on air, off air. They can always drop me an email Walden shoes at yesterday. Us. Dot com and happy the answer, you can always call my cell phone at 714-454-3281, Walden Hughes ** 1:00:11 you can chase me down at over, at reps, at reps online.org. You know, get forward to me or spur vac at S, P, E, O, D, V, A, c.com, or you can even get hold of Michael Henson and Mike. Michael Hingson ** 1:00:26 You can always get a hold of me. And people know how to do that, and I will get them in touch with you as well, you bet. So I'm glad to do that. Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. I hope you've enjoyed this. This is a little bit different than a lot of the podcast that we've done. But it is, it is so important to really talk about some of these kinds of concepts, and to talk about old radio and what it what it still adds and contributes to today. So I hope that you enjoyed it. I'd love to hear from you. Feel free to reach out to me. Michael H, i@accessibe.com that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, love to hear from you. Wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value that a lot, and I hope that you'll go listen to YESTERDAY usa.com, or.net then again, in both, there's the red and the blue Network, or repsonline.com, and we, we have a lot of fun. Every so often we do trivia contests, and we'll take hours and and gentlemen in New Jersey and his wife, Johnny and Helen Holmes, come on and run the trivia, and it's a lot of fun, and you're welcome to add your answers to the trivia questions, and you can come on in here and learn how to even do it through the chat. Walden Hughes ** 1:01:51 But my kids watch this every Friday night on, why USA too? Michael Hingson ** 1:01:56 Yeah, I get to be on every Friday night, and that's a lot of fun. Yeah. So we'd love to hear from you, and we'd love you to to help us further enhance the whole concept of old radio show. So I want to thank you again. And if you know of other people who ought to be on the podcast, Walt, and of course, you as well as you know, please introduce us. We're always looking for more people to talk to us about whatever they want to talk about. So I want to again. Thank you all and for being here. And Walden, thank you for being here as well. Walden Hughes ** 1:02:27 All right, Mike, I'll be talking a little while. Michael Hingson ** 1:02:33 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

christmas united states tv american new york california texas children ai chicago hollywood washington pr discover japan stand star wars new york times seattle speaker leader new jersey minnesota explore pennsylvania iphone network hospitals bbc alive adventures espn mba cnn nbc va voices south carolina blind cbs southern california navy star trek npr ambassadors thunder honestly stitcher reflect revenue ebooks founded hans berkeley worldwide uncover unstoppable holmes tulsa hughes khan djs cds frank sinatra ratings st louis sherlock holmes wong sirius xm xi long beach spur twilight zone rsvp beach boys rutgers university vets wonderful life sherlock reps spoke wound honored library of congress karl marx appearing gi joe sergeant big show walden american red cross cowan playhouse uc irvine pdt boucher mayflower jimmy stewart puget sound abc tv petri bob hope wgn national federation simon schuster rod serling lacher bill johnson xm fox sports radio gunsmoke old time radio dan murphy mike wallace jack benny michael h rathbone zuzu girl friday gene autry ben wright exxon mobile chief vision officer jimmy durante federal express scripps college eddie cantor tallulah bankhead fred allen gary owens dick whittington michael hingson mercedes mccambridge walter winchell nigel bruce red rider herb ellis jim lang have gun will travel brian henderson crackles accessibe american humane association troy martin bill ratner beep baseball thunder dog armed forces radio service jack bailey kitty kallen beverly washburn sperdvac hero dog awards michael henson yesterday usa

Wachstumsagenda ohne Wirkung? Was Reiches Ökonomen übersehen

wirkung punkte finanzen rente acht gutachten michael h reiches

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 10, 2025 25:30

Der neue Beraterkreis der Wirtschaftsministerin schlägt in einer Kurzstudie Reformen bei Finanzen, Rente und Bürokratie vor. Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther erklären, warum das Gutachten wesentliche Punkte außer Acht lässt.

Episode 377 – Unstoppable Servant Leader with Raheem Lindsey

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 7, 2025 69:02

In this powerful episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I sit down with Raheem Lindsey, a man whose life journey defies the odds. Born three months premature and raised in a challenging environment shaped by his mother's drug addiction, foster care, abuse, and incarceration, Raheem shares how faith and purpose led him to become a minister and founder of Relentless Living Online Ministries. Raheem walks us through the transformative power of self-reflection, accountability, and a deep commitment to servant leadership. He introduces his "Relentless Living Pyramid"—Consumer, Service, Leadership—as a model for turning personal pain into purpose. His message: don't chase money, chase purpose, because purpose leaves a legacy. Michael and Raheem explore how faith becomes the anchor in moments of doubt and how seeing past our circumstances can help us step into leadership. Today, Raheem is transitioning from construction to full-time ministry and speaking, using his story to inspire others to lead with empathy and serve where they've been broken and healed. Listeners are encouraged to connect with Raheem at raheemlindsey81@gmail.com or via his Relentless Living YouTube channel. Tune in for an unforgettable conversation that proves anyone—no matter their start—can lead an unstoppable life of service and significance. About the Guest: Hello, I'm RaHeem Lindsey, which means "merciful one" or "one who establishes a deep connection." I'm 43 years old, born on August 12th. I'm a father of three, husband, entrepreneur, and servant of God. My purpose is to please God and serve His people. I believe life is not about personal gain, but about serving and impacting others. As a follower of Jesus Christ, I strive to make a positive difference in the world. Growing up, I faced significant challenges. My father was murdered when I was 15, and I overcame foster care after experiencing abuse at a young age. Despite these difficulties, I'm grateful for my journey and the lessons I've learned. I come from a humble background, raised by a single mother in government housing. However, I've learned to see these experiences as opportunities for growth and blessing. My story is one of resilience and determination. As an empath, servant, student, and leader, my goal is to impact the world in the name of Christ Jesus. I'm driven to serve others and make a positive difference. I love and bless everyone, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to share my story. Ways to connect with RaHeem: https://youtube.com/@rltalkrelentlesslivingglob7210?si=0Km3z7m7Ie_e2Ul4 https://open.spotify.com/show/5Mr5x2456rf31d7R36bfmv?si=ZUCs8yBaSJG664vFeuHoCQ https://www.instagram.com/relen_tlessliving?igsh=aW53b3RhcXc1ZWFv&utm_source=qr About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And today, by my standards, we have a guest who really is unstoppable. You know, one of the things that I hear regularly from people who talk to me about my own experiences of being in the World Trade Center is it's amazing what you went through and how you survived, and you're resilient and all that. I don't think tend to think a whole lot about that. I understand what people are saying, but our guest today, RaHeem Lindsay, I think, has a much more resilient and unstoppable story than I do. A lot of people might disagree, but that's okay. We're both we're both unstoppable, and I think most people are more unstoppable than they think they are. It's just that we tend to underrate ourselves. But we're going to hear a great story today, and I know Raheem has got a lot to tell us. So Rahim, let's start by welcoming you to unstoppable mindset. RaHeem Lindsey ** 02:18 Thank you, Michael, such a pleasure and an honor to be a guest on your podcast. It's really an honor. I couldn't believe that you actually have reached out to me when you did. I was like, Really, I'm just very flattered, because just to have to have accomplished the feats that you have, and yourself you're you're a definition of relentless living, which is the name of my online ministry, relentless living, refusing to take no for an answer. You know, seeing life's obstacles as opportunities, things of that nature, right? That that resilience, that that that grit, that fortitude, that we all have, but we have to be willing to embrace in order to go forward in life, Michael Hingson ** 03:01 right? I agree. Well, tell me, what? What does Raheem RaHeem Lindsey ** 03:05 mean? It means merciful. Michael Hingson ** 03:09 There you go. Yes, sir, you're, you're committed, right from the name, RaHeem Lindsey ** 03:14 yes, absolutely yes. And it's funny that you asked that, Michael, because in totality, so Raheem, Lamar Lindsay, so in totality, it means Merciful One, one who establishes a deep connection, which very well fits me, defines me to a T cool Michael Hingson ** 03:31 well, and I'm really looking forward to hearing a lot more about that. Why don't we start by you telling us a little bit about kind of the early Raheem, growing up and and I know that that's an integral part of your story, is you get a little bit older, if you will. But tell us about you growing up and all that. RaHeem Lindsey ** 03:49 Okay, so Raheem growing up, I like to tell individuals, friends, etc, that I am, I'm I'm well, I'm well, diverse when it comes to my my growing up as a young man into adulthood, I have a mixed upbringing. I was raised with my mother, right? And then I was actually, let's start here. I was born in Houston, Texas. I left there as an infant, okay, and as a infant, I was hospitalized because I was born premature at six months years old. I mean, at six months old, rather, what did you weigh? I weighed, oh, my goodness. Oh, I was about six, so I six pounds or so. Was that Michael Hingson ** 04:41 I was born premature about two months, and I weighed two pounds, 13 ounces, so I was a little RaHeem Lindsey ** 04:47 Okay, and it might be less than that, actually, just to be honest with you, Michael, it's been quite some time I would have to ask my mother Michael Hingson ** 04:54 you don't remember, huh? RaHeem Lindsey ** 04:57 But, but long story short. Up, though, and that's really amazing that we have, that that's another connection that we have, as well as being, you know, individuals that are resilient, that are relentless, right? And so I was hospitalized in the incubator for the first, I believe, what two months of my life, I had to be fed through an IV in my head, actually. So it was, it was very, was a very tough Michael Hingson ** 05:24 time for you. Were one of those people who lost eyesight because you were in an incubator. RaHeem Lindsey ** 05:30 Oh, my goodness. So yours is. Your journey has been from birth, right? Okay, wow, wow. Come on. Wow. Michael Hingson ** 05:41 You know, the the issue is that medical science, when I was born, wasn't ready to believe although some doctors were starting to recognize it and say it, but most doctors were not ready to admit that even too much oxygen could be a bad thing. And the result was that the retina didn't develop properly. But that didn't happen for everyone, but they also eventually did figure it out. And so a lot of times, children aren't necessarily given an absolute pure oxygen environment nowadays for 24 hours a day, just depends on what they weigh and what's needed, and it can still be that a person could lose eyesight if they're in an incubator with a pure oxygen environment. But medical science understands it a lot more now. So it doesn't happen like it did back in the 1950s where we actually because of the number of premature births, lower the age, the average age of blind people from 67 to 65 years just because of premature birth. RaHeem Lindsey ** 06:43 Interesting. Okay, wow. Michael Hingson ** 06:47 So anyway, you were so you were put in an incubator RaHeem Lindsey ** 06:50 for a while. Yes, no, I was put in incubator for a while. And so I went through that opportunity of resilience. It started at a young age for us both, right? I don't want to say an issue. I don't like to really use that word. I say opportunities for growth and development, right? Because while we might have had an area of concern, let's say that it, it enabled us in other ways, right? It made us more resilient, more more built for the race, right to go forth in the future, right? So that's awesome. So in the incubator, and then raised with my mother, of course, up until the age of seven. Right now, here's my life begins to take a another dramatic turn. My mother, at the time, was battling a crack addiction. God bless her heart, okay, and but much respect to her. I never lost not one ounce of respect for her, because she always remained a mother to me, even over even, you know, facing those odds, right, facing the the adversity of that she still remained a mother, and I appreciate that. And so with my mother, while being a Christian woman, a woman of faith, as I am, a Christian man myself, she was still, she was a believer, but also still in the world, not fully transitioned, as most of us have. We all go through that time in our lives where we're still, you know, trying to make that full transition. And matter of fact, honestly, we will always be in the event, in the race of transition throughout our entire lives, because we'll never have it fully correct, or know everything for that matter, right? So anyhow, my mother, she was following a crack addiction at the moment, and so I had a family member that ended up calling Child Protective Services on my mother, an older cousin, so I ended up going into the foster care system. I was in the foster care system for a round just under a year, I'd say, seven to eight months during this time while in the foster care system, I was beaten and molested, all while staying right next door to a cousin. But at the time, I'm only seven, going into eight years old, right? So for me, as much as I wanted to reach out and I wanted to make this known, I felt, I felt conflicted once again, I'm still an adolescent, right? I'm still a child, Michael Hingson ** 09:49 yeah, so you don't have the tools yet to really deal with that. RaHeem Lindsey ** 09:54 Absolutely, yes, exactly, not having the tools yet necessary to deal with that. Certain. Stance. So I was very reclusive, and I never mentioned it to anyone. So about let me see seven, eight months was my stay there, my aunt Andrea, my great aunt, ended up getting custody of me, which is my mother's aunt, my great aunt, etc, end up getting custody of me. Now, once again, mentioning my mother was always in a very deep rooted transition, both battling addiction and just her personal life itself, and also being a woman of faith. So my mother, my upbringing with her was not as structured as, say, it should have been, but I grew up, my mother cared and she was very hands on, but yet and still, she was a single parent, and so I somebody grew up in in the streets a bit, if you will, okay, Michael Hingson ** 11:06 your father wasn't around at all. No, RaHeem Lindsey ** 11:08 my father was not around at all. Okay. And funny story mentioning the father, he was in my life up until about four years old, and then my mother and him had separated, and they were, you know, in other relationships, whatever have you. And I went to visit him. One day, my mother took me to visit him, and he asked me, Hey, who's your dad? Now, me not having a normal, typical, constant relationship of seeing him on a regular basis. I say my mother, I mean my wife. I mean, I'm sorry, my mother's boyfriend at the time and so kind of all hell broke loose with that. He wanted nothing else to do with me. Keep in mind, I'm only four at the time, right? So from that point, yes, so from that point forward, he was out of my life. Okay? So now we fast forward back again to getting in custody with my aunt. My aunt has gained custody of me after getting out of the foster home. So with my aunt, my aunt Andrea, my great aunt, with her, the home is very structured. It's just me and her, her only child, which is my older cousin, Todd. He's in the Air Force, whatever have you. He's in his mid 20s at the time. Okay, okay, and so it's just me and my aunt Andre so with her very structured. Sunday church, Sunday evening church, Wednesday, youth night church, if church was open, we were attending. And it wasn't enough to just attend. We had to be operating. We had to be serving in some capacity. So I was involved in, you know, the youth crowd, any and everything that had to do where we could serve in the church we were doing it. And so that helps create kind of a illustration, if you will, a visual of who Rahim is. I am, both one who is street smart, also one of I love to seek Intel. I love to read. I am a avid reader, so forth and so on. That was very much encouraged within the household with my aunt, so she very much stressed those areas. I was made to memorize Scripture and so forth in her household, things of that nature. Got involved in activities outside of school, baseball, things of that nature. So that helps bring you to who I am today, as of relentless living. To kind of give you a a quick synopsis, if you will, because I know we know we like to talk about some other topics and so forth, but that gives you a bit of my background and who I am. So I tell people I'm very textured, for that matter. Michael Hingson ** 14:07 So what, what did you do, school wise? Then, once you were growing up, RaHeem Lindsey ** 14:14 school wise. So I, you know, went through, you know, the elementary and so forth, as everyone else does. I ended up dropping out my 11th no my senior year, I dropped out. Reason being, I was working, obtained a full time job, and I was kind of in that time as most of us are exploring the world, getting to know myself as a young man and a young adult, if you will. So there's the girl aspect, right? Then there's, you know, hey, rahims, now I have a job, so I'm bringing in my own finances. So I. Have responsibility of self, and also being back in the presence of my mother, because my mother gained custody of me again after about three to four years with my aunt. So she battled, she overcame her crack addiction and also regained custody of me. So kudos to her. So being back in the presence of my mother, she always instilled responsibility upon me. She's very big on that, so I'll be responsible for, say, a particular bill. Maybe it was the electricity bill. Obviously, not as high as they are now, right? The economy's changed. Their face changed. So not as much, right? Now we're talking, you know, hundreds of dollars, you know, when then it was like, you know, hey, maybe you know, 150 you know, for light bill. No big deal. So, and those things just helped me to learn about responsibility at a early age as a young man, setting me up also for future success, I will say, so school, so I dropped out. Like I said, 12th grade year I was I got in a little bit of trouble. I always had a great head on my shoulder. Always had great values and morale. But as we all know, bad nature or Bad company corrupts good nature, Bad company corrupts good nature. And so it is not enough to simply do well on your own. It was never meant for us to do anything simply on our own, because you can't be great alone. It takes a team. It takes a strategic alliance of a group of individuals. It may be somewhat semi minute. It could be Lacher, depending upon the need and the desire and the the vision itself. But you cannot be great yourself. It takes a team. And so I tended to I would do well for such a period of time, I was always very much into church, but then there's that street side of Raheem, and I have some street friends, so therefore I would find myself regressing, or rather, let's say, digressing, from the progress that I've made because of my choice of friends. Now, not all of them were in the streets, per se. Others were doing well and focused on the future and doing an accomplishing great things on the positive note. But there's that conflict, right? I've got this internal conflict because my homeboys, you know, and so forth from my mother's end of, you know, the spectrum, you know, we're in the streets, we're products of the environment, right? And it's very easy to become a product of your environment, and then also to get to a point where you sever some of those relationships, not because that's so you're too good, because you've outgrown such a thing, and you've been outside of the environment. So if you see better, logically and hopefully, we will then do better. So it was conflicted, so I I got in a bit of trouble, you know, throughout my childhood and and young adulthood, from, I say, at the time of 14 to, oh goodness, mid 20s, maybe about 2627 I would, you know, I do well, and then I would have a issue, you know, with the law. You know, I was, there was times when I was younger, I know, broken into homes, things of that nature, and it would be quite, I wouldn't even say, like, quite unexpected to those who knew me and had relationships with me, because I was, I was a great person. I really was, you know, good morale, good values, things of that nature, but when I got around the wrong company, then there we have it. Now, Rahim is no longer who I know to be, but I'm who I was, or the tainted version of Raheem, and not the more fulfilled, better version of Raheem, for lack of better terms. So I went through, you know, in and out the system for a while. You know, I've been in on the in the county jails. I've did a year in the penitentiary at one point in time. But I saw this to say, for anyone that has battled such things, no matter what it is, Do not despise it, because, because, because of those situations, it has helped make me who I am today. So I'm able to help other individuals who have battled or in the same storms as I face and I stand today before you as a victor, victorious over those. Circumstances, adverse situations and so forth and so what nearly killed me is situations for yourself. Michael, what nearly you know killed you things that you thought were nearly impossible to get out of, challenges that we face, so much adversity, that caused so much pain, that caused us to have to be resilient because we had no other choice. Right, right? What nearly killed us. Now we can reach back and bring life unto others, because we were able to overcome it, but I have to go here because me, being a man of faith, I will say, not by our power nor our strength, but by God's Spirit. Thus saith the Lord, because of that, because ourselves, we're not capable of such things on our own. We're just not it would be insane to think that we could do the things that we have accomplished, and furthermore that we will accomplish going forward without a divine entity, without divine help, because some things are simply limited to the the carnal existence of Michael Hingson ** 21:05 being, did you ever, did you ever finish high school? RaHeem Lindsey ** 21:09 I Okay. So, great question. Michael, so when I was in the penitentiary for a year, I actually ended up getting my GED. So I was, I came up. I had the mindset like, you know, what, if I want to be here, I'm going to, I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to use the system against itself. So, okay, I'm going to be here. You will pay for my education. I'm going to better myself while I'm here. I'm not going to, you know, be depressed and be in this, this slump of a mind state and existence of being No, I want to better myself and come out with a vengeance to succeed and be a better version of Rahim. Rahim, 2.0 Michael Hingson ** 21:48 Did you? Did you ever go into college after you got out of the penitentiary and all that? RaHeem Lindsey ** 21:53 Absolutely, yes, I did. I did not finish, not because I could not, not because I didn't have the intellect, just simply I didn't have the motivation to stay in tune with it, because and now seeing Hindsight is 2020, it wasn't my purpose. Wasn't connected to my purpose, added value to who I am. It helped me to find my purpose, but it wasn't my purpose. So I ended up going to college for Business Administration for a little under a year, Phoenix University, online, okay? And then another time I went for personal training. I've always been a fitness head, so forth and so on. So I love you know, to have, you know, a good overall health, along with, you know, a good mindset, so forth, mind, body, spirit, right, Michael Hingson ** 22:47 right. So what did you do then, from a job or profession standpoint, to support yourself? RaHeem Lindsey ** 22:57 Okay? So throughout those times, a lot of times, I delved in sales. I'm very much a people person, so being a store manager at one point in time of GNC, okay, telemarketing, oh, my God, an array of things usually having to do with retail. Because, like I said, once again, I'm very much a people person. I'm an introvert, but I'm a, I mean, I'm an extrovert, but I'm an introvert. When it comes to my issues, I don't share a lot of my issues with Michael Hingson ** 23:31 individuals. That's fine. Okay, so you did, you did a lot of sales, and yes, and I think that's a very honorable profession, having been in sales for many years in my life as well. Okay, what did sales teach you? What did what did you? How did it help you grow as an individual? RaHeem Lindsey ** 23:54 Sales taught me how to be a great consumer. Because in order to be a great salesman, you need to consume the needs of others. What's why, who, when, where. I love that I will, I will say in part, I learned from GNC, because when you're trying to sell, I don't sell. I like to build relationships and a rapport. So henceforth, once again, the who, what, who, what, why, when, where. Why are you doing these things? What are you doing this for? When do you plan on achieving the goal that you want? Etc, etc. So being a great consumer helps you to be a great salesman, because then you make it personal when you ask these questions. Michael Hingson ** 24:48 Well, yeah. And you also learn how to be a good communicator if you're doing a decent job, RaHeem Lindsey ** 24:55 yes, as well, absolutely. Michael Hingson ** 25:00 I unexpectedly ended up going into sales, but I've learned those same basic tenants and those same basic things. And the reality is, you learn to be a good communicator, and you also learn that ultimately, good sales people really don't sell anything. First of all, the customers really got to want to buy it. And the good sales people guide customers to find what it is they really need. And I know I've had situations where my product wouldn't do what the customer wanted, and the last thing I would want to do would be to and I probably could have done it, convince them to buy my product anyway, even though it might not do everything, because I knew that come back to bite me. RaHeem Lindsey ** 25:46 Yes, absolutely. Michael, I so concur. Um, touching on that real quick. So exactly the same thing with me, right? I would never sell a individual on something just because it was the item of the week, so to speak, right? We would have conference calls, and so we have, you know, one item, maybe two items, for the week that were the main point of sale, make sure that we're pushing this item to each and every customer, while I would offer that I was more in tune and cared about what they needed and what they wanted. So those questions we spoke about briefly here just a moment ago. And so by doing that, as you said, you develop a rapport and trust. They trust you now because they know that you're just you're just not going to give them any product, sell them any product just for the sake of the monetary gain, but we want you to get what you truly need. We want to make sure that your needs are met, and so they'll come back. And that's how you establish, you know, long term Jeopardy and long term relationships with customers, and then customers become friends clients, and there you have it, and that's how you know, you establish it and build from there. Absolutely what you said. Michael Hingson ** 27:09 Did you ever have situations where your boss is wanting you to sell a product and you knew that it wasn't going to be what a particular customer wanted? Did you ever have some discussions or conversations with your bosses about that kind of thing. RaHeem Lindsey ** 27:24 Did I ever have a conversation with them about that indirect, indirectly, that usually it went over well, once again, it's not about what you say, but it's how you say it, right? Michael, so I would say, what ifs what if I have a customer that is not in need of this particular product, but I mentioned it to them, so I'm still doing my job, right? I'm still doing as directed by the superiors. So I'm asking, What do you think about this product? Now, here's the funny thing, though, when we're dealing with, you know, GNC, right? So it's vitamins. There's a lot of things that compliment the other so sometimes, while not really pushing that specifically, I would say, hey, based upon your needs. I recommend this, but just so happens only if it was applicable, this product here will enhance your will enhance the results that you're looking for. And so I would present that to my superiors, my manager, because I was a store manager myself at my own store. So I would present that to them, and they would say, okay, Raheem, Hey, as long as you're, you know, mentioning the product, and you are pushing the product, to some extent, that's fine, okay, so that ended up working out for me, right? Michael Hingson ** 29:03 So how long did you sell for? GNC? RaHeem Lindsey ** 29:06 Ah, GNC, I sold for a little over a year. I enjoyed that. That's one of my favorite jobs. One of my most favorite jobs that I've ever had was GNC, just being able to serve. Being able to serve Michael is my thing. I find myself when I'm not able to serve others, I'm not content, right? I'm not I don't feel miserable at times, because I really live to serve. I have the heart of a servant. Michael Hingson ** 29:41 So what did you do after GNC? RaHeem Lindsey ** 29:43 After GNC, let's see here, after GNC, I was in restaurant for a minute. Worked at Five Guys Burgers as a store manager there. Also I'm an entrepreneur. I started. In a fried ice cream business? Yes, absolutely. So fried ice cream the first of its kind, right? Ever put into pints and gallons? Okay, so I started that myself back in 2017 the funny way that that even came about was I had lost my job building house trusts. Okay, so I've also done construction, which I'm in now. Currently, I do construction. I do concrete right now, but in this season of time, at the age that I am, I'll be 44 in August, everything is about purpose. Everything is about purpose. And I feel the Lord definitely pulling me more into that direction and being more in tune with that. So henceforth, opportunities like this to be on this podcast, this is in alignment with purpose. But anyhow, so 2017 I started the ice cream. I fried ice cream led me into being into retail for myself. I was in the mall twice. I had a few partnerships with a few local restaurants and so forth and so on. I was supposed to be on food, carnival foods, but I ended up missing that. I had a Oh my God, has some meaning of some sort. I end up missing that. So I fried ice cream was actually supposed to be on Carnival foods on Food Network. So we make quite a bit of feats and accomplishments with that. So there's that. And then I've also, like I said, the construction, telemarketing, my gosh, what else have I done? Probably more sales. And like I said, most recent, I'm in concrete construction. I've been doing that over the last three years, and so that kind of brings you to current but I'm kind of growing quite weary of it, just because I know that I have a story, I have a message. There's some things that God has put on my heart to teach as a minister, as a servant, as an evangelist, so many things that that that wrap up and make up Raheem, I don't put one title on myself, because the Lord has allowed Me and enabled me to be many things due to what I've endured throughout my life, has given me that, you know, variation of existence. Michael Hingson ** 32:31 So, so tell me more about what you're looking at in terms of being an evangelist and so on, what you're what you're moving toward, and what you think you're RaHeem Lindsey ** 32:40 going to do. So Well, I'll say, you know, right now, over the last, oh, my god, probably see three, three going, Whoa. No, four years. Let's say four years. Online ministry has been my go to my YouTube channel. Very much, relentless living online ministries where, you know, I do reels, so forth and so on. Really wanting to, I want to do much more than just give a word, but in today's society, you kind of draw them in more with the short term, you know, short term memory is very, very dominant anymore. We're not as much as consumers as we once were. And I think that's just due to the the way of, you know, the AIS and technology and so forth. It's made mankind a bit lazy if you let, if you let. Now, it's also very innovative and creative. And it challenges us to go further in our you know, our mindset, our cerebral capacity and so forth. So it can make you lazy if you allow it. By the same time, it can challenge you and allow you to express yourself in new ways and insight and creativity if you let it, such as myself, yourself, others, etc. So, but just you know, teaching others how to understand the word more, also giving, showing truth and Revelation through the word that applies to your everyday life, that will inspire, that will encourage and edify you, and then also helping you to be able to build business from it, which I've done and and and coaching and things of that nature. It's such a variation of it, but all stemming from what I shared earlier, which is, well, I didn't completely share, but I like to call it my relentless living pyramid. And the base of it is being a consumer. The middle of it servant in the peak is leadership, being a leader, but the most important is being a great consumer, because in order to be a great leader, he was first be a great consumer. Take in the needs, evaluate the. Needs of others. Do an assessment, if you will, right. And then, based upon that, we can better serve who are. Demographic is our tribe is right. And then, as we prove ourselves, we develop a rapport, friendships, so forth and so on. And now there's trust, and when there's trust, people allow you to lead them. And then, in order to remain a great leader, I like to call a servant leader, because the greatest leaders are servant leaders, because a great leader has to be a servant to remain a leader. And so you repeat that process in order to remain relevant, whether it's in marriage, business school, you name it, the relentless living pyramid applies for every facet of life. So in that space alone allows me I see myself speaking engagements, coaching, leadership, development. There's so much that comes from that space and that pyramid, because it applies to everything. And I've been through a lot, if I haven't been through it myself. Personally, I know someone close to me who has so that's the great thing about acknowledging and knowing from what you've come from and not despising it, but instead seeing that as a vehicle of momentum, as long as you have changed and learn from your mistakes, right to become better, that is actually added value, because now you can teach others where you did not fail at because you got through it. So remember that God brings you to it. To bring you through it, the storm that you face today is not to kill you. It's not to stop you, but it's meant to propel you. Because you are eagles. We are eagles. Eagles fly a fly with the storm. They fly towards the storm and use the momentum of the storm to carry them into the next destiny, step, destination for us, purpose. So do not see the storm as a opposition. See it as a opportunity for growth, development, pruning so Michael Hingson ** 37:26 you you emphasize faith a lot. Yes, tell me. Tell me more about faith and what how you define it. And another question I would ask is, what role do you believe that faith plays in discovering your purpose? Okay? A lot of questions RaHeem Lindsey ** 37:44 there. Okay, okay, okay, yes, absolutely, okay. I'll start the last one because that because I remember that one best. So okay, what role does faith play in finding purpose? Correct? Michael, yeah, okay, so I'll start with this. I guess maybe I could call it my mantra for relentless living ministries. And this will sum it up. And then I will go into more in depth, live in pursuit of your God given purpose, and then you will find life and life more abundantly. But how do you find your purpose? Okay, so how do you find your purpose? I want to start here. I believe you for myself speaking, I believe you have to incorporate God, because how can you find purpose if you do not include the One who created you with a purpose for himself, I believe is the purpose. So now further going, going even more in depth, finding purpose, going through the obstacles, going through the storms. So me going through being in the system as a adult, a young adult, me going through being in the foster care system as a child. Me going through being beaten and molested. Me going through being the black sheep of the family. Me going through at times, being deserted, okay, sometimes not being liked, not because of who I am, but because of who I am, because of a light that is in me, because of my faith, because of my belief, right? So being facing the facing the trials and the tribulations. Each and everything that you face and that you overcome helps establish you into walking into your divine purpose. I believe that your divine purpose is based upon everything that you have overcome, because most of us, and matter of fact, I can almost guarantee all of us in some way, shape or form, what we have gone through has helped shape our future. It's inevitable what we go through helps to shape our future. That's why decisions are so important. The decisions that we make today will affect our tomorrow. So everything that I've gone through in my past has. Purposed me to be able to help those that are in the same situation that I face, to help them overcome. Like I said, What nearly killed us will nearly kill the individuals that will be watching this podcast that they've endured, the trials, the hardship carrying their own cross, if you will. But yet they survive. Yet they're victorious. It's a reason why you're victorious. So you have to become what you were meant to say. So to speak for those that are you know men and women of faith, everybody knows Jesus, our Lord and Savior. Okay, I'll just go. I'm just going to go here. Scripture says, He who was, I'm sorry, He who knew no sin became sin. You have to become what you want to overcome. You have to go through what you are meant to overcome. Because if you don't endure it, you can't overcome it. There is no testimony without the test going here, being chosen, right? And being chosen, I believe, is part of purpose, because you're chosen for a something we're chosen for a someone you know in marriage, right? There's a someone we're chosen for that we choose, they choose us. So everyone wants to be chosen. Everyone wants to be the one, until they find out how much it cost, because to be chosen, it will cost you something, and it will cost you everything. To be chosen, it's cost you a lot, Michael, to be the man who you are today. It didn't just drop off the sky to you. Wasn't just fed to you. You had to endure some things, some hardships, some struggles, but you turned them into opportunities. Nonetheless. This is why you stand here today as the strong man that you are, because you never gave up. You remained relentless in the face of adversity. Michael Hingson ** 42:04 So how do people learn to recognize that, and learn to recognize whether they're making the right choices? RaHeem Lindsey ** 42:12 Okay, great question. So how do people learn to recognize that? I think the recognition is easy when we take ourselves out of the equation, and we look at it from a broader scope. And stop looking at why me, like in the, in the in the in the victim perspective, and think, Why me so the why me. The second why me is, why am I enduring this? There has to be a reason for this. Now, some things are self inflicted, and some things happen. Life happens. But even within that, there's always a lesson to be learned. Always lesson to be learned if we want to evolve now the lessons there, whether we like it or not, but we have to choose to want to see it, or we can be naive and we can neglect the fact that this has happened, and we can play the victim in every world and every role. Or we can choose to see that, hey, I'm victorious. I did overcome this, whether it's self inflicted or just life happened. But the easy way to know about these things are, I think every experience will increase the knowledge of the knowing. Michael Hingson ** 43:33 But what I'm getting at, I think, is that in reality, until you are willing to stop and analyze and look at what you're doing, look at what's happened, look at why it's happened, and listen to your inner voice, if you will. Yes, that guides you until you're willing to do all of that, it's really very difficult to find out what your purpose ought to be or how you should proceed, and that's the thing that most people don't do, is take the time to be self analytical. RaHeem Lindsey ** 44:10 Come on, absolutely. Michael, I agree 100% Absolutely. We don't take the time to be self analytical, and that it takes, it takes courage to do that, because sometimes we don't want to look at the reflection that's in the mirror. We brother, you know, cast the, you know, the judgment or the the you know, it's someone else's fault, play someone else at fault, the situation's fault. Oh, you know, I'm always, you know, the innocent one, but yet, at most times, if we're really honest with ourselves, we are our own worst enemy, and it's very unfortunate, and so that's why it's very necessary to confront ourselves on a daily basis and hold ourselves accountable. It so that we can have positive growth and development, because where there's accountability, there's also confrontation, whether it's with yourself or can be with others. Now, confrontation is good. There's good confrontation and bad confrontation, but ultimately, confrontation is good, because confrontation there has to be something confronted, and so something is a dress, then we cannot, we can't cover we can't we can't address it unless it's been spoken of, unless it's been, you know, brung up, right? We have to address it. So with that comes, you know, the accountability, and so accountability requires being uncomfortable Michael Hingson ** 45:52 Well, or it requires that you recognize that there are lessons to be learned Absolutely, and you go out and recognize that you're going to be your best teacher and that you need to learn them. How do people overcome self doubt when they're when they're going through life and so on? How do you how do you get beyond all the self doubt? I think we've talked about it some, but, you know, I'm curious to see if you want to add RaHeem Lindsey ** 46:17 to that absolutely, I'd love to Michael, so overcoming self doubt at some point in time in life, and there's been a few times, for every single individual, you have overcame something that you thought was nearly impossible, because if you, if you didn't, each and every one of us wouldn't be where we are today. Now. We could all be, obviously, maybe doing a bit better, but could always be a lot worse. So we discover so I lost print thought, repeat that one more time. I'm so sorry, Michael. Michael Hingson ** 46:55 I was just asking how people deal with and how do you overcome self doubt to be able to advance and move forward. RaHeem Lindsey ** 47:01 Okay, so overcome this self doubt. Remember that you know what. I have to go. I have to go here. I have to go here. Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world? This is how I help myself, and I hope that it helps all of us. It will help all of us say that once more, Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world? Okay? So you get some people, may, you know, it might be the inner voice for me, it's God, Jesus, you know, he's the wrong. Same thing, okay, same thing, right? What does the inner voice say about you? What does God say about you? You are fearfully and wonderfully made in God's image. See the this thing here, the flesh, the carnality, will always feed you the lies, because you'll always see just what is in front of you. But the inner voice is what gives you vision, right? So when you have vision, when you're looking outside the physical parameter of things, you see the greater, okay? And you want to see yourself by the inside voice. The inside voice says that you're perfectly, wonderfully made the image of God through Christ, Jesus. You can do all things. You are great. You are amazing. You are wonderful. These things, you are the you are the victor, no longer the victim. Okay, you are the head, not the tail. These are the things, the positive things that are truth, that are said about you, said about me, each and every one of us. So when we learn to see beyond the present circumstance and remember this, it's not always what it looks like, especially when it comes to yourself. Anything that is that is opposite of the positive things that have been spoken of you, that you know about yourself, even is a lie of the enemy. So you have to be willing to know the truth, willing to walk by faith and not by sight. I will add this in, for faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. So you may have been the drug addict, you may have been the the alcoholic, but I see you as the doctor, as the lawyer, as the nurse, as the store manager, so forth and so on. We have to feed ourselves with the positivity, but the knowing who you are, for me comes from the word. It's times I struggle with myself. I'm like, I don't think I'm the greatest person in the world, but then I have to go back and I reflect. I go back to the world. What does God say about rain? What does God say about you? That's the truth, not the lies that the world may spill upon you and try to demonize your name and slander your reputation, assassinate your character, not those things. Things that might have happened, but you are not that. So seeing the greater in you for me and that will share with anyone that I have the opportunity to encounter you, got to go back to what the inner says about you, the inner self, because the inner you is great, despite what you may go through on the exterior and what is inside will soon come outside. It will reflect Michael Hingson ** 50:29 you mentioned earlier, the whole concept of being a servant leader. What is a servant leader? RaHeem Lindsey ** 50:34 A servant leader? A servant leader is one who, obviously, they I see them as being an empath of some extent. I think a great leader has to be empathetic. Because I believe you have to be empathetic in order to want to solve one's needs, to care about their needs. Now it's one thing just to be in business, and this is what separates a servant leader from a leader. A leader may be great and sells the sofa and so on right, and they're leading. But do they care? Are they gathering the Intel of the consumers because of a want and a desire to change lives and to help others. So you have to be a great servant in order to be that great leader. And when you're a great servant leader, you serve based upon the needs of others, and that brings life into you. By giving life unto others by fulfilling their needs. You find your need being met, and you develop that trust and that relationship, and then you leave. But you lead, not only to have that title, forget the title. It's not about the title, but you're led because you're called to lead, because the people trust you and you have been enabled to and you have the insight to based upon being a great consumer, and you want to serve others, you have to be a servant. So consumer servant leadership, once again, the pyramid kind of sums that up and gives you, you know, a synopsis of that. How you know being a great servant leader. They have to be all those things, consumer, servant leader, servant leader, and then repeat, in order to remain relevant, it can never be about you. To be a great leader, it can never be about you. It has to be about the people whom you're serving. Because the moment it becomes about you, it becomes singular. And if you're only there to help self, guess what? At some point in time, you may run out of needs, but when you're serving the capacity of many, there is always a need to be met, and not only that, you're operating in purpose. So I like to share with people this, this, this, this train of thought, if you will. Everyone's always, you know, concerned about financials, right? Money, right? Not me, it's purpose. Because if you chase purpose, the money will follow chase your purpose. Because here's the thing, as scripture says, I'll go here once again, money answereth all things, not something people may say initially and whatnot, oh my god, money, money, money, right for those that are, you know, you know, into the word things like that, right, as myself, sometimes we get it misconstrued and say, Well, money is evil. No, it's not. It depends on whose hands it's in. The word says the love of money is the root of all evil. The love when you love the money over the inner voice over God so forth, then it's the root of all evil, because people will do anything for money. But when you're operating on purpose, you're on divine assignment, it's bigger than you, and so money answers all things, right? But what happens when it's singular? It's just you. There's only so many needs one person can have, so there's no longer a call for the money to answer. And this is kind of a illustration, a parable, if you will. You know, you pick up the phone, it's because someone called Money answers all things. So there has to be a call in order for the money to answer, being a need the call a need for money to answer. But what happens when all your needs are answered as a one individual? It's done, but when you're operating out of purpose, your purpose outlives you. Purpose creates legacy, and purpose helps fulfill others other than yourself, so you're constantly on assignment, so therefore you always stay in motion. Michael Hingson ** 54:48 So how do you balance personal ambition and serving others? RaHeem Lindsey ** 54:54 Personal ambition and serving others? Wonderful question. Michael, personal ambition. And serving others, because it's it's why, it's why I'm here. It's my assignment, Michael, it's my purpose in life. As I mentioned earlier, I literally I feel terrible when I'm not able to help others. I'd much rather give than receive any day, because I've been through so much, and I know what it's like to need and others have the wrong perspective of you and not want to help you based upon what somebody else has said. And it's the wrong narrative, it's the wrong story, it's a lie. And then some things may be a bit true. There's some things that, oh, well, yeah, that that is true, but I'm not that. I'm not the individual anymore. That was, that was a mistake that I made, but it does not define me. I know it's like to be misunderstood. I know what it's like to be in need. That's why it's so good that I have went through and endured everything that I have in my life because it's made me appreciative of help when it comes, and it's given me such a capacity with the void that has been left in me because of what I have endured to want to help others, that that's that's my purpose. It may it makes when I, when I, when I have a chance to speak unto other people. I speak life unto them. If I have the opportunity to help somebody financially, it's, it's my pleasure, it's, it's a duty, because I know it's my assignment. Based upon everything that Rahim has went through. I went through and experienced homelessness. I've, I've had a mother that was addicted to hardcore drugs. I've been in the system, both incarceration and as a child, you know, being in the foster care and so forth. I've endured all these things. So it's given me a heart for people that are in the same situations. So it's not too many people you know that themselves or don't know somebody directly close to them, that hasn't been incarcerated, that hasn't been a victim of something in the system as a child, that hasn't had a close loved one, that's battled an addiction, if not yourself, that hasn't went through homelessness, that hasn't been, you know, rejected by the family, you know, a black sheep or whatever have you, that you know all those things and some so I remember what it's like, and some of those things I still endure. And I'm like, all I want to do is to help and to love and to serve. If I do nothing else in life, I'm good with that. I'm fine with that, because I know that's my purpose. Well, oh, go ahead, yes and yeah, go ahead and so just just just knowing that. Like I said, You know what you go through life, ladies and gentlemen, what you go through in life, pay close attention. Hindsight is 2020. That is a part of your purpose, what you overcame. I promise you a lot of people, how do I find purpose? How do I find purpose? It's not as hard as we make it, and I can probably deny and I share this with so many people, and they you're absolutely right, and if it doesn't lead directly, if it doesn't define purpose for you, it helps lead you to your purpose. So don't despise anything that you grow through. But yet, please, learn from it. Learn from it and gain insight. Michael Hingson ** 58:38 How do you think one can cultivate a let me, yeah, how do you think that one can cultivate a servant leadership mindset in their lives? RaHeem Lindsey ** 58:52 By I would say by first, you can't it can't be about self. You can't be about self. Now we'll say this, okay, and it's not contradictory, if you, if you take it in the right state of mind, okay, and get what I'm saying, what I'm not saying, you have to be able to help yourself before you can help someone else, because you cannot pour from an empty cup. But knowing that what's in the cup is for you, in the overflow of whatever it may be, your anointing, your finances, your time, your energy, your space, the overflow, once your needs are met, it's for others. So there's a time to think about self initially, because you have to work and develop yourself, you have to fill yourself so that you have something to give. But then once those need once the need is met. So I guess next would be, when is the need met? Well, let's put it in this kind of illustration. Let's say you've got rent, right? Right? It's going to this something everybody can relate to. You got rent, or you got your mortgage. The mortgage is paid, right? The the electrics paid, but you got an exceedingly, you know, amount of of financials left after that. Now you have to be wise. Always exercise wisdom, right? But after that, okay, well, I'm good. My needs met. You know, I've got clothes on my back. You know, there's gas in the car, etc, etc, whatever. Now it is not good for you to hold because God gives seed to the giver. I mean seed to the sower. You see, if you hold what you have in your hand, once again, dealing with singular possessiveness, right? It stays there. It goes no farther than where you set your feet. But the moment you open up your hand, what do you have in your hand? What do you have in your hand? And you spread it and you then it multiplies, right? It multiplies. So it cannot be just about you. We have to get out of the the self mindset? But know that, yes, you have to be able to help yourself before you can help others. Once again, you can't pour from empty cup. But after that, remove self from it and realize that everything that you've gotten, everything that you have obtained, is by the grace of God, that's simply what you've done. Because some things, I'm quite sure, if you look back, how in the world did I do that? And someone helped you, like I said, we cannot be great by ourselves. So it takes a community. It takes individuals. It takes a unit in unity, right? So how to go about that? We move self out the equation and think, How can I serve in a capacity where I have been afflicted in my life, where I overcame, because if you're a decent human being, by my beliefs, you will have a void in your heart, a concern in your heart, and you're drawn towards individuals who are going through what you went through, because you remember what it was like. I wish I had someone who would have understood. I wish I had someone that have spoken a kind word to me, said, I love you when I needed it most, instead of turn their back on me, instead of opposed me, I wish someone would have lended a hand when I was short on the rent, short on the electricity bill, and yes, I was doing everything that I could. So Wow. To reflect back on those things, should give you a heart of gratitude, because obviously you were able, you were able to overcome it by some way. Someone gave you a hand. Somebody, everybody's had somebody help them. And so you may have more rejections than the help. And so the thing Michael Hingson ** 1:03:00 yes please. And so the thing to do is to pay it forward. Pay it RaHeem Lindsey ** 1:03:04 forward, simply put, Michael, yes, I'm sorry. I'm long winded at times. Michael Hingson ** 1:03:10 Well, I hear you and I understand and I appreciate all the things that you've said. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? RaHeem Lindsey ** 1:03:18 You can reach out to me there's I'll start with email. That's Raheem Lindsey, 80 one@gmail.com 1:03:29 spell that for me, if you would. That's K, A, RaHeem Lindsey ** 1:03:33 H, E, E, M, as in man Lindsey, L I, N, D, S, e, y, 80 one@gmail.com Raheem Lindsey, 80 one@gmail.com Okay, and then, and you can reach out to me for you know, whatever speak, counsel, leadership, whatever it may be. Then also, I have my YouTube channel, relentless living online ministries. It is exactly that relentless living International Ministries on YouTube, you'll see this gorgeous face here. Michael Hingson ** 1:04:13 Okay, so the name of the channel, again, is relentless living. Relentless living, yes, RaHeem Lindsey ** 1:04:19 okay, yep. Relentless living ministries on YouTube. And so, yeah, I have those two things there. And, you know, if need further, then, you know, I'm always free, you know, to, you know, give out my contact, you know, which is more than more than more than welcome to utilize. I have no problem with that as well. Michael Hingson ** 1:04:40 Well, I want to thank you for being here and giving people a lot of insight. I hope people will take it to heart. I've always been a great fan of the whole concept of servant leadership. I think it's extremely important. And I think any good leader is or should be, a servant leader. Otherwise you're. Are missing a lot of the dimensions of what leadership is all about. So I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank everyone who was listening today for being here. Love to hear from you. Love your thoughts. Please email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com accessibe is spelled A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, E, so it's Michael M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, i@accessibe.com, and wherever you're listening, please give us a five star review for the podcast episode. We love it, we appreciate it, and we really do value all that you have to say to us and about us. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest on the podcast, and Rahim as well. For you, if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest, we'd love to hear from you, or please give us an introduction to anyone who you think ought to be a guest. We're always looking for people, because I think everyone has a story to tell. And the reality is, as Rahim is so greatly demonstrated today, we can deal with whatever circumstances come along, but it's our choice to make, to deal with things, and we can choose to do it or not that is up to us. Absolutely. We can listen to God or not, that is up to us. So thank you again, everyone for being here. And Rahim, I want to thank you once more for being here. This has been wonderful, RaHeem Lindsey ** 1:06:21 absolute pleasure. Michael, I just, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart, once again, complete honor. I've enjoyed just your your your intellect, your wisdom and the Great, the great questions that you've asked may for, I think, a great podcast session as many others before me as I've had the privilege of watching, so I just I thank you. God. Bless you, and continue doing what you're doing, being an inspiration, a great servant leader and just innovation to many an inspiration and motivation. **Michael Hingson ** 1:07:00 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

god love jesus christ texas money children ai lord spirit leadership service online new york times revelation scripture hospitals savior blind eagles ambassadors thunder stitcher air force iv ebooks consumer intel reason bless unstoppable circumstances personally jeopardy correct worked ratings business administration carnival relentless food network rutgers university hindsight ged world trade center demographics stance american red cross servant leaders rahim national federation lacher child protective services purposed raheem gnc michael m sowell michael h exxon mobile chief vision officer international ministries federal express scripps college michael hingson accessibe five guys burgers american humane association thunder dog phoenix university hero dog awards

Multipolare Weltordnung: Droht das Ende des Freihandels?

bedeutung verb das ende droht weltordnung michael h freihandel

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 3, 2025 24:49

Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther diskutieren über die neue multipolare Weltordnung – und warum Freihandel zunehmend an Bedeutung und Verbündeten verliert.

Flüchtlingskrise: Zwei Troubleshooter erinnern sich - #1479

FALTER Radio

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 2, 2025 54:48

Der ehemalige Wiener Bürgermeister Michael Häupl und Ex-Flüchtlingskoordinator Christian Konrad erinnern sich, wie es Österreich vor zehn Jahren geschafft hat, Hunderttausende Flüchtlinge zu versorgen, wieso Wien geflüchtete Kinder aus dem Erstaufnahmezentrum Traiskirchen herausholte und weshalb der Flüchtlingssommer 2015 den pensionierten Raiffeisen-General drei Flaschen guten Weißwein kostete. Ein Gespräch mit Nina Horaczek Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

kinder acast sich zwei wei wien ein gespr erinnern flaschen michael h troubleshooter wiener b

Episode 375 – Unstoppable Caring, Heart-Centered Attorney with Erin Edgar

united states god tv university time founders children trust new york times office philadelphia north carolina new jersey plan hospitals students indiana uber court supreme court blind council star trek ambassadors caring thunder structure attorney stitcher constitution ebooks unstoppable excuse crm navy seals ensure unc disabilities rehabilitation mm rutgers university jimmy carter esq oj borg law schools making friends sel lexus james madison american red cross army rangers braille unc chapel hill tar heels rfp foreign service heart centered dayz national federation floppy marx brothers legal aid bar association jack benny michael h seal team six low vision disability services exxon mobile chief vision officer federal express scripps college thompson reuters michael hingson rfd bookshare erin baker westlaw learning ally allan poe indiana school accessibe american humane association victor reader stream thunder dog hero dog awards

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 30, 2025 69:32

Each episode on Unstoppable Mindset I ask all of you and my guests to feel free to introduce me to others who would be good guests on our podcast. Our guest this time, Erin Edgar, is a guest introduced to me by a past podcast guest, Rob Wentz. Rob told me that Erin is inspirational and would be interesting and that she would have a lot to offer you, our audience. Rob was right on all counts. Erin Edgar was born blind. Her parents adopted an attitude that would raise their daughter with a positive attitude about herself. She was encouraged and when barriers were put in her way as a youth, her parents helped her fight to be able to participate and thrive. For a time, she attended the Indiana School for the Blind. Her family moved to Georgia where Erin attended high school. After high school, Erin wanted to go to college where she felt there would be a supportive program that would welcome her on campus. She attended the University of North Carolina at Chapple Hill. After graduating she decided to continue at UNC where she wanted to study law. The same program that gave her so much assistance during her undergraduate days was not able to provide the same services to Erin the graduate student. Even so, Erin had learned how to live, survive and obtain what she needed to go through the law program. After she received her law degree Erin began to do what she always wanted to do: She wanted to use the law to help people. So, she worked in programs such as Legal Aid in North Carolina and she also spent time as a mediator. She will describe all that for us. Like a number of people, when the pandemic began, she decided to pivot and start her own law firm. She focuses on estate planning. We have a good discussion about topics such as the differences between a will and a living trust. Erin offers many relevant and poignant thoughts and words of advice we all can find helpful. Erin is unstoppable by any standard as you will see. About the Guest: Erin Edgar, Esq., is a caring, heart-centered attorney, inspirational speaker and vocal artist. She loves helping clients: -- Plan for the future of their lives and businesses, ensuring that they have the support they need and helping them find ways to provide for their loved ones upon death. --Ensure that the leave a legacy of love and reflect client values -- Find creative ways that allow them to impact the world with a lasting legacy. She is passionate about connecting with clients on a heart level. She loves witnessing her clients as she guides them to transform their intentions for their loved ones into a lasting legacy through the estate planning process. Erin speaks about ways to meld proven legal tools, strategies, and customization with the creative process to design legal solutions that give people peace of mind, clarity, and the assurance that their loved ones will be taken care of, and the world will be left a better place Ways to connect with Erin: Facebook: https://facebook.com/erin-edgar-legal LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/erinedgar About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. We're glad that you're here with us, wherever you may be. Hope the day is going well, and we have Erin Edgar on our episode today. Edgar is a very interesting person in a lot of ways. She's a caring, heart centered attorney. She is also an inspirational speaker and a vocal artist. I'm not sure whether vocal artistry comes into play when she's in the courtroom, but we won't worry about that too much. I assume that you don't sing to your judges when you're trying to deal with something. But anyway, I'll let her answer that. I'm just trying to cause trouble, but Erin again. We're really glad you're with us. We really appreciate you being here, and I know you do a lot with estate planning and other kinds of things that'll be fun to talk about. So welcome to unstoppable mindset. Erin Edgar ** 02:14 Thank you, Michael. It's great to be here, and I haven't sung in a courtroom or a courthouse yet, but I wouldn't rule it out. Michael Hingson ** 02:23 I have someone who I know who also has a guide dog and his diet. His guide dog, it's been a while since I've seen him, but his guide dog tended to be very vocal, especially at unexpected times, and he said that occasionally happened in the courtroom, which really busted up the place. Oh, dear. Erin Edgar ** 02:45 I imagine that would draw some smiles, hopefully, smiles. Michael Hingson ** 02:48 Well, they were, yeah, do you, do you appear in court much? Erin Edgar ** 02:53 Um, no, the type of law that I practice, I'm usually, I don't think I've ever appeared in court after I've written people's wills, but I have done previous things where I was in court mediating disputes, which is a kind of a separate thing that I used to do, so I've been in court just not recently. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 03:17 Well, that's understandable. Well, let's start a little bit with the early Erin and growing up and all that sort of stuff. Tell us about that? Sure. Erin Edgar ** 03:26 So I was born in cold, gray Indiana, and, yeah, chilly in the wintertime, and I started out I was blind from birth, so my parents thought it would be a good idea to send me to the school for the blind for a while. And back when I was born, um, teen years ago, they did not mainstream visually impaired and disabled students in that state, so you went where you could, and I was at the blind school for until I reached third grade, and then we moved to Georgia, and I've been in the south ever since I live in North Carolina now, and I started going to public schools in fourth grade, and continued on that route all the way up through high school. Michael Hingson ** 04:21 Oh, okay. And so then, what did you do? Erin Edgar ** 04:29 So after, after that, I, you know, I was one of those high school students. I really wanted to get out of dodge and leave my high school behind. I went visiting a couple of colleges in Georgia, and I said to my parents, I said, I really don't like this. It's like going to high school again. Literally, I was meeting people I had been in high school with, and I decided, and was very grateful that my parents. Were able to rig it some way so that I could go to an out of state school. And I went to UNC Chapel Hill here in North Carolina, Tar Heels all the way. And I was there for undergrad. And then I got into law school there as well, which I was very excited about, because I didn't have to go anywhere, and graduated from law school again a while ago in the early 2000s Michael Hingson ** 05:31 Okay, and so then you went straight into law from that. Erin Edgar ** 05:37 I didn't I did some other things before I actually went into law itself. I worked with some local advocacy organizations, and I also mediated, as I said earlier, I did mediations with the county court, helping mediate criminal disputes. And we're talking about like things with you get in a dispute with your neighbor and you yell at each other, those kind of People's Court type things. They were fun and interesting. And then I did go into law. After that, I started working with Legal Aid of North Carolina, which is a an organization that helps people in poverty who cannot afford a lawyer to go and have have their options communicated to them and some help given to them regarding their public benefits or certain other, you know, public things that we could help with we weren't able to help with any personal injury, or, you know, any of the fun stuff you see on TV. So and then, when the pandemic hit, I started my own law practice and completely changed gears and went into writing estate plans and wills for a living. Michael Hingson ** 07:07 Do you think that your time doing mediation work and so on taught you a lot about humanity and human nature and people? Erin Edgar ** 07:16 It did. I bet it did. It was invaluable, actually, in that area taught me a lot about, I don't know necessarily, about human nature. However, it did teach me a lot about how to talk to people who were on different pages. You know, they had, perhaps, values and principles that weren't quite the same, where they had a different way of looking at the same exact situation, and how to bring those those people together and allow them to connect on a deeper level, rather than the argument we're able to get them to agree to kind of move forward from that, so nobody has to be found guilty, right? And you know a judge doesn't have and you don't have to drag a criminal conviction around with you. I think the most rewarding cases that I had, by far were the education cases. Because I don't know if anyone knows this, but in most states, in the United States, if you don't send your kids to school, you are guilty of a crime. It's called truancy, and you can be arrested. Well, the county that I live in was very forward thinking, and the school system and the court said, that's kind of dumb. We don't want to arrest parents if their kids aren't going to school, there's something behind it. You know, there the school is not providing what the child needs. The child's acting out for some reason, and we need to get to the bottom of it. So what they did was they set up a process whereby we come in as neutral observers. We did not work for the court. We were part of a separate organization, and have a school social worker there or counselor, and also have a parent there, and they could talk through the issues. And in a lot of cases, if the children were old enough, they were teenagers, they were there, and they could talk about it from their perspective. And truly amazing things came out of those situations. We could just we would discover that the children had a behavioral issue or even a disability that had not been recognized, and were able to come up with plans to address that with you know, or the school was with our help, Michael Hingson ** 09:42 going back a little bit, how did your parents deal with the fact that you were blind? I gather it was a fairly positive experience Erin Edgar ** 09:50 for me. It was positive. I was so fortunate, and I'm still so grateful to this day for having parents who you. I were very forward thinking, and advocated for me to have and do whatever, not whatever I wanted, because I was far from spoiled, but, you know, whatever, yeah, yeah, you know. But whatever, however I wanted to be successful, they advocated for me. And so my mother actually told me, you know, when I was born, they went through all the parent things like, oh, gosh, what did we do wrong? You know, why is God punishing us? You know, all that. And they, very early on, found support groups for, you know, parents with children with either blindness or disabilities of some sort, and that was a great source of help to them. And as I grew up, they made every effort to ensure that I had people who could teach me, if they couldn't, you know, how to interact with other children. I think, for a while when I was very little, and I actually kind of remember this, they hired an occupational therapist to come and teach me how to play with kids, because not only was I blind, but I was an only child, so I didn't have brothers and sisters to interact with, and that whole play thing was kind of a mystery to me, and I remember it sort of vaguely, but that's just A demonstration that they wanted me to have the best life possible and to be fully integrated into the sighted world as much as possible. So when I was at the blind school, and I was in this residential environment, and there was an added bonus that my parents didn't really weren't happy in their jobs either, and they weren't happy with the education I was getting, that they decided, well, we're just going to pick up and move and that was, quite frankly, as I look back on it now, a huge risk for them. And they did it, you know, 50% for me and 50% for them, maybe even 6040, but as I look back on it now, it's another demonstration of how supportive they were, and all the way through my school age years, were very active in ensuring that I had everything that I needed and that I had the support that I needed. Michael Hingson ** 12:19 That's cool. How did it go when you went to college at UNC? Erin Edgar ** 12:25 Yeah, that's an interesting question, a very good question. Michael Hingson ** 12:29 You didn't play basketball, I assume? Oh no, I figured you had other things to do. Erin Edgar ** 12:33 Yeah, I had other stuff to do. I sang in the choir and sang with the medieval chorus group, and, you know, all this other, like, musical geek, geeky stuff. But, or, and when we were looking for colleges and universities, one of the criteria was they had to have a solid kind of, like disability, slash visually impaired center, or, you know, support staff that would help in, you know, allow people with disabilities to go through the university. So at UNC Chapel Hill, the they had as part of their student affairs department Disability Services, and it just so happened that they were very aware of accommodations that blind people needed. I wasn't the first blind student to go through undergrad there. That's not law school, that's undergrad. And so you know, how much was it? Time and a half on on tests if I was doing them on the computer, double time if I was doing them in Braille. A lot of the tests were in Braille because they had the technology to do it. And also the gentleman who ran the Disability Services Department, I think, knew Braille, if I'm not mistaken, and could transcribe if necessary. But I was at the stage at that point where I was typing most of my exams anyway, and didn't need much that was in Braille, because I had books either electronically or they had a network of folks in the community that would volunteer to read if there was not, you know, available textbooks from RFD, and what is it, RFP and D? Now was at the time, yeah, now Learning Ally, there wasn't a Bookshare at that time, so we couldn't use Bookshare, but if there weren't textbooks available, they would have people in the community who would read them for them, and they would get paid a little bit. Now, when I went to law school, it was a totally different ball game, because I was the first law student who was blind, that UNC Chapel Hill had had, and it was a different school within the school, so that student affairs department was not part of law school anymore, and we had quite a time the first semester getting my book. Works in a format that I could read them in. They did eventually, kind of broker a deal, if you will, with the publishers who were either Thompson Reuters or Westlaw at the time to get electronic versions. They were floppy disks. This is how old I am. Floppy disks. They were in this weird format. I think it was word perfect or something. Usually it was, and they Michael Hingson ** 15:27 didn't really have a lot of them new or no, they didn't know now, newer publishing system, Erin Edgar ** 15:32 yeah, there wasn't PDF even, I don't think, at the time. And the agreement was I could get those, and I actually had to buy the print textbooks as well. So I have this whole bookcase of law books that are virgin, unopened, almost. And they are, you know, some of them almost 25 years old, never been opened and of no use to anyone. But I have them, and they look nice sitting down there in that bookshelf antiques books. They're antiques. So the first year was a little rough, because for a while I didn't have books, and we were able to make arrangements so that I could kind of make up some classes on a later year and switch things around a little bit. And it ended up all working out really well once we got started. Michael Hingson ** 16:16 Yeah, I remember when I was going through getting my bachelor's and master's in physics, I needed the books in braille because, well, it's the only way to be able to really deal with the subject. You can't do it nearly as well from recordings, although now there's a little bit better capability through recording, because we have the DayZ format and so on. But still, it's not the same as reading it in Braille and for mathematics and physics and so on. I think that the only way to really do it is in Braille. And we had challenges because professors didn't want to decide what books to use until the last minute, because then, oh, a new book might be coming out and we want to get the latest book, and that didn't work for me, right? Because I had a network that I, in part, I developed with the Department of Rehabilitation out here, helped our office for disabled students didn't really have the resources to know it. They were very supportive. They just didn't really deal with it. But the bottom line is that we had to develop, I had to develop the network of transcribers, but they needed three to six months to do the books, at least three months and and sometimes I would get them one or two volumes at a time, and they barely kept ahead of the class. But, you know, it worked, but professors resisted it. And my the person who ran the Office for Students with Disabilities, said, Look, you have to work on these things, but if you're not getting cooperation from professors, and you come and tell me, and I will use the power of this office to get you what you need, there's another thing you might consider doing, she said. And I said, What's that? And Jan said, Go meet the chancellor. Make friends, yeah, friends in high places. And so I did. And Dan, oh, there you go. Became pretty good friends over the years, which was pretty cool, Erin Edgar ** 18:15 you know, it was weird because we didn't, I didn't have that problem with the professors. They were, you know, I had a couple of old codgers, but they weren't really worried about the books. They were fine with me having the books, but it was the publishers. The publishers were irritated that that I needed them, and, you know, in an alternative format. And I didn't really, I was not. I was one of those people that if someone said they were going to do something for me, I kind of let people do it. And at the time, I was really not an advocate, advocator for myself, at that time, a very good self advocate. And so I kind of let the school interface with that. I think it would have been really interesting, if I look back on it, for me to have taken a hand in that. And I wonder what would have happened well, and at this point, you know, it's neither here nor there, but that's really fascinating. Making Friends with the chancellor, sometimes you have to do stuff like that Michael Hingson ** 19:15 well. And the idea was really to get to know Him. And what there was, well, obviously other motivations, like, if we needed to go to a higher court to get help, we could go to the chancellor. I never had to do that, but, but the reason for meeting him and getting to know him was really just to do it and to have fun doing it. So we did, Erin Edgar ** 19:36 yeah, and I kind of had a comparable experience. I met the Dean of the Law School for that very reason. And he said, you know, if you've got trouble, come to me, my parents got involved a little bit. And we all, you know, met together and maybe even separately at some points just to make sure that I had everything that I needed at various times. Mm. Yeah, and I made friends with the some of the assistant deans at the law school, in particular because of the situation, and one of whom was the Dean of the Law School Student Affairs, who was helping me to get what I needed. And for a while, when I was in law school and beyond. He was like, We lent books to each other. It was very funny. We found out we had the same reading tastes beyond law books. It wasn't, you know, legal at all, but we were like, trading books and things. So a lot of really good relationships came out of that. Michael Hingson ** 20:37 And I think that's extremely important to to do. And I think that's one of the things that that offices for students with disabilities that tend to want to do everything for you. I think that's one of the things that it's a problem with those offices, because if you don't learn to do them, and if you don't learn to do them in college, how are you going to be able to be able to really act independently and as an advocate after college, so you have to learn that stuff Erin Edgar ** 21:05 Absolutely. That's a very good point. Michael Hingson ** 21:09 So I, I think it was extremely important to do it, and we did, and had a lot of fun doing it. So it was, was good. What are some of the biggest misconceptions you think that people had about you as a blind child growing up? Erin Edgar ** 21:25 Oh yeah, that's a great question. I think that one of the biggest misconceptions that people had about me, especially when I was younger, is that I would know I would be sort of relegated to staying at home with parents all of my life, or being a stay at home parent and not able to be kind of professionally employed and earning, you know, earning a living wage. Now, I have my own business, and that's where most of my money goes at the same at this point. So, you know, earning a living wage might be up in the air at the moment. Ha, ha. But the the one thing I think that the biggest misconception that people had, and this is even like teachers at the blind school, it was very rare for blind children of my age to grow up and be, you know, professionals in, I don't want to say high places, but like people able to support themselves without a government benefit backing them up. And it was kind of always assumed that we would be in that category, that we would be less able than our sighted peers to do that. And so that was a huge misconception, even you know, in the school that I was attending. I think that was the, really the main one and one misconception that I had then and still have today, is that if I'm blind, I can't speak for myself. This still happens today. For instance, if I'm if I want, if I'm going somewhere and I just happen to be with someone sighted, they will talk whoever I'm, wherever I'm at, they will talk to the sighted person, right? They won't talk to you. They won't talk to me. And so, for instance, simple example, if I'm somewhere with my husband, and we happen to be walking together and we go somewhere that I need to go, they will talk to him because he's guiding me, and they won't talk. And he's like, don't talk to me. I have no idea, you know, talk to her, and part of that is I'm half a step behind him. People naturally gravitate to the people that are leading. However, I noticed, even when I was a young adult, and I would go, you know, to the doctor, and I would be with my my parents, like, maybe I'm visiting them, and I need to go to the doctor, they would talk to them and not me, yeah, which is kind of sad. And I think it happens a lot, a lot more than people realize. Michael Hingson ** 24:10 Yeah, it does. And one of my favorite stories is, is this, I got married in 1982 and my wife has always been, or had always been. She passed away in 2022 but she was always in a wheelchair. And we went to a restaurant one Saturday for breakfast. We were standing at the counter waiting to be seated, and the hostess was behind the counter, and nothing was happening. And finally, Karen said to me, she doesn't know who to talk to, you know? Because Karen, of course, is, is in a wheelchair, so actually, she's clearly shorter than this, this person behind the counter, and then there's me and and, of course, I'm not making eye contact, and so Karen just said she doesn't know who to talk to. I said, you know? All she's gotta do is ask us where we would like to sit or if we'd like to have breakfast, and we can make it work. Well, she she got the message, and she did, and the rest of the the day went fine, but that was really kind of funny, that we had two of us, and she just didn't know how to deal with either of us, which was kind of cute. Mm, hmm. Well, you know, it brings up another question. You use the term earlier, visually impaired. There's been a lot of effort over the years. A lot of the professionals, if you will, created this whole terminology of visually impaired, and they say, well, you're blind or you're visually impaired. And visually impaired means you're not totally blind, but, but you're still visually impaired. And finally, blind people, I think, are starting to realize what people who are deaf learned a long time ago, and that is that if you take take a deaf person and you refer to them as hearing impaired, there's no telling what they might do to you, because they recognize that impaired is not true and they shouldn't be equated with people who have all of their hearing. So it's deaf or hard of hearing, which is a whole lot less of an antagonistic sort of concept than hearing impaired. We're starting to get blind people, and not everyone's there yet, and we're starting to get agencies, and not every agency is there yet, to recognize that it's blind or low vision, as opposed to blind or here or visually impaired, visually impaired. What do you think about that? How does and how does that contribute to the attitudes that people had toward you? Erin Edgar ** 26:38 Yeah, so when I was growing up, I was handicapped, yeah, there was that too, yeah, yeah, that I was never fond of that, and my mother softened it for me, saying, well, we all have our handicaps or shortcomings, you know, and but it was really, what was meant was you had Something that really held you back. I actually, I say, this is so odd. I always, I usually say I'm totally blind. Because when I say blind, the immediate question people have is, how blind are you? Yeah, which gets back to stuff, yeah, yeah. If you're blind, my opinion, if you're blind, you're you're blind, and if you have low vision, you have partial sight. And visually impaired used to be the term, you know, when I was younger, that people use, and that's still a lot. It's still used a lot, and I will use it occasionally, generally. I think that partially sighted, I have partial vision is, is what I've heard people use. That's what, how my husband refers to himself. Low Vision is also, you know, all those terms are much less pejorative than actually being impaired, Michael Hingson ** 27:56 right? That's kind of really the issue, yeah. My, my favorite example of all of this is a past president of the National Federation of the Blind, Ken Jernigan, you've heard of him, I assume, Oh, sure. He created a document once called a definition of blindness, and his definition, he goes through and discusses various conditions, and he asks people if, if you meet these conditions, are you blind or not? But then what he eventually does is he comes up with a definition, and his definition, which I really like, is you are blind if your eyesight has decreased to the point where you have to use alternatives to full eyesight in order to function, which takes into account totally blind and partially blind people. Because the reality is that most of those people who are low vision will probably, or they may probably, lose the rest of their eyesight. And the agencies have worked so hard to tell them, just use your eyesight as best you can. And you know you may need to use a cane, but use your eyesight as best you can, and if you go blind, then we're going to have to teach you all over again, rather than starting by saying blindness is really okay. And the reality is that if you learn the techniques now, then you can use the best of all worlds. Erin Edgar ** 29:26 I would agree with that. I would also say you should, you know, people should use what they have. Yeah, using everything you have is okay. And I think there's a lot of a lot of good to be said for learning the alternatives while you're still able to rely on something else. Michael Hingson ** 29:49 Point taken exactly you know, because Erin Edgar ** 29:53 as you age, you get more and more in the habit of doing things one way, and it's. Very hard to break out of that. And if you haven't learned an alternative, there's nothing you feel like. There's nothing to fall back on, right? And it's even harder because now you're in the situation of urgency where you feel like you're missing something and you're having to learn something new, whereas if you already knew it and knew different ways to rely on things you would be just like picking a memory back up, rather than having to learn something new. Well, I've never been in that position, so I can't say, but in the abstract, I think that's a good definition. Michael Hingson ** 30:34 Well, there are a lot of examples, like, take a person who has some eyesight, and they're not encouraged to use a cane. And I know someone who was in this situation. I think I've told the story on this podcast, but he lived in New Jersey and was travel. And traveled every day from New Jersey into Philadelphia to work, and he was on a reasonably cloudy day, was walking along. He had been given a cane by the New Jersey Commission for the Blind, but he they didn't really stress the value of using it. And so he was walking along the train to go in, and he came to the place where he could turn in and go into the car. And he did, and promptly fell between two cars because he wasn't at the right place. And then the train actually started to move, but they got it stopped, and so he was okay, but as as he tells the story, he certainly used his cane from then on. Because if he had been using the cane, even though he couldn't see it well because it was dark, or not dark, cloudy, he would have been able to see that he was not at the place where the car entrance was, but rather he was at the junction between two cars. And there's so many examples of that. There's so many reasons why it's important to learn the skills. Should a partially blind or a low vision person learn to read Braille? Well, depends on circumstances, of course, I think, to a degree, but the value of learning Braille is that you have an alternative to full print, especially if there's a likelihood that you're going to lose the rest of your eyesight. If you psychologically do it now, that's also going to psychologically help you prepare better for not having any eyesight later. Erin Edgar ** 32:20 And of course, that leads to to blind children these days learn how to read, yeah, which is another issue. Michael Hingson ** 32:28 Which is another issue because educators are not teaching Braille nearly as much as they should, and the literacy rate is so low. And the fact of the matter is even with George Kircher, who invented the whole DAISY format and and all the things that you can do with the published books and so on. The reality is there is still something to be said for learning braille. You don't have sighted children just watching television all the time, although sometimes my parents think they do, but, but the point is that they learn to read, and there's a value of really learning to read. I've been in an audience where a blind speaker was delivering a speech, and he didn't know or use Braille. He had a device that was, I think what he actually used was a, was, it was a Victor Reader Stream, which is Erin Edgar ** 33:24 one of those, right? Michael Hingson ** 33:25 I think it was that it may have been something else, but the bottom line is, he had his speech written out, and he would play it through earphones, and then he would verbalize his speech. Oh, no, that's just mess me up. Oh, it would. It was very disjointed and and I think that for me, personally, I read Braille pretty well, but I don't like to read speeches at all. I want to engage the audience, and so it's really important to truly speak with the audience and not read or do any of those other kinds of things. Erin Edgar ** 33:57 I would agree. Now I do have a Braille display that I, I use, and, you know, I do use it for speeches. However, I don't put the whole speech on Michael Hingson ** 34:10 there that I me too. I have one, and I use it for, I know, I have notes. Mm, hmm, Erin Edgar ** 34:16 notes, yeah. And so I feel like Braille, especially for math. You know, when you said math and physics, like, Yeah, I can't imagine doing math without Braille. That just doesn't, you know, I can't imagine it, and especially in, you know, geometry and trigonometry with those diagrams. I don't know how you would do it without a Braille textbook, but yeah, there. There's certainly something to be said for for the the wonderful navigation abilities with, you know, e published audio DAISY books. However, it's not a substitute for knowing how to Michael Hingson ** 34:55 read. Well, how are you going to learn to spell? How are you going to really learn sit? Structure, how are you going to learn any of those basic skills that sighted kids get if you don't use Braille? Absolutely, I think that that's one of the arenas where the educational system, to a large degree, does such a great disservice to blind kids because it won't teach them Braille. Erin Edgar ** 35:16 Agreed, agreed. Well, thank you for this wonderful spin down Braille, Braille reading lane here. That was fun. Michael Hingson ** 35:27 Well, so getting back to you a little bit, you must have thought or realized that probably when you went into law, you were going to face some challenges. But what was the defining moment that made you decide you're going to go into law, and what kind of challenges have you faced? If you face challenges, my making an assumption, but you know what? Erin Edgar ** 35:45 Oh, sure. So the defining moment when I decided I wanted to go into law. It was a very interesting time for me. I was teenager. Don't know exactly how old I was, but I think I was in high school, and I had gone through a long period where I wanted to, like, be a music major and go into piano and voice and be a performer in those arenas, and get a, you know, high level degree whatnot. And then I began having this began becoming very interested in watching the Star Trek television series. Primarily I was out at the time the next generation, and I was always fascinated by the way that these people would find these civilizations on these planets, and they would be at odds in the beginning, and they would be at each other's throats, and then by the end of the day, they were all kind of Michael Hingson ** 36:43 liking each other. And John Luke Picard didn't play a flute, Erin Edgar ** 36:47 yes, and he also turned into a Borg, which was traumatic for me. I had to rate local summer to figure out what would happen. I was in I was in trauma. Anyway, my my father and I bonded over that show. It was, it was a wonderful sort of father daughter thing. We did it every weekend. And I was always fascinated by, like, the whole, the whole aspect of different ideologies coming together. And it always seemed to me that that's what human humanity should be about. As I, you know, got older, I thought, how could I be involved in helping people come together? Oh, let's go into law. Because, you know, our government's really good at that. That was the high school student in me. And I thought at the time, I wanted to go into the Foreign Service and work in the international field and help, you know, on a net, on a you know, foreign policy level. I quickly got into law school and realized two things simultaneously in my second year, international law was very boring, and there were plenty of problems in my local community that I could help solve, like, why work on the international stage when people in my local community are suffering in some degree with something and so I completely changed my focus to wanting to work in an area where I could bring people together and work for, you know, work on an individualized level. And as I went into the legal field, that was, it was part of the reason I went into the mediation, because that was one of the things that we did, was helping people come together. I realized, though, as I became a lawyer and actually started working in the field, most of the legal system is not based on that. It's based on who has the best argument. I wanted no part of that. Yeah, I want no part of that at all. I want to bring people together. Still, the Star Trek mentality is working here, and so when I when I started my own law firm, my immediate question to myself was, how can I now that I'm out doing my own thing, actually bring people together? And the answer that I got was help families come together, especially people thinking about their end of life decisions and gathering their support team around them. Who they want to help them? If they are ever in a situation where they become ill and they can't manage their affairs, or if you know upon their death, who do they want to help them and support them. And how can I use the law to allow that to happen? And so that's how I am working, to use the law for healing and bringing people together, rather than rather than winning an argument. Michael Hingson ** 39:59 Yeah. Yeah, well, and I think there's a lot of merit to that. I I value the law a great deal, and I I am not an attorney or anything like that, but I have worked in the world of legislation, and I've worked in the world of dealing with helping to get legislation passed and and interacting with lawyers. And my wife and I worked with an attorney to set up our our trust, and then couple of years ago, I redid it after she passed away. And so I think that there was a lot of a lot of work that attorneys do that is extremely important. Yeah, there are, there are attorneys that were always dealing with the best arguments, and probably for me, the most vivid example of that, because it was so captivating when it happened, was the whole OJ trial back in the 1990s we were at a county fair, and we had left going home and turned on the radio, only To hear that the police were following OJ, and they finally arrested him. And then when the trial occurred, we while I was working at a company, and had a radio, and people would would come around, and we just had the radio on, and followed the whole trial. And it was interesting to see all the manipulation and all the movement, and you're right. It came down to who had the best argument, right or wrong? Erin Edgar ** 41:25 The bloody glove. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit. Yeah, yep, I remember that. I remember where I was when they arrested him, too. I was at my grandparents house, and we were watching it on TV. My grandfather was captivated by the whole thing. But yes, there's certainly, you know, some manipulation. There's also, there are also lawyers who do a lot of good and a lot of wonderful things. And in reality, you know, most cases don't go to trial. They're settled in some way. And so, you know, there isn't always, you know, who has the best argument. It's not always about that, right? And at the same time, that is, you know, what the system is based on, to some extent. And really, when our country was founded, our founding fathers were a bunch of, like, acted in a lot of ways, like a bunch of children. If you read books on, you know, the Constitution, it was, it was all about, you know, I want this in here, and I want that in here. And, you know, a lot of argument around that, which, of course, is to be expected. And many of them did not expect our country's government to last beyond their lifetimes. Uh, James Madison was the exception, but all the others were like, Ed's going to fail. And yet, I am very, very proud to be a lawyer in this country, because while it's not perfect, our founding documents actually have a lot of flexibility and how and can be interpreted to fit modern times, which is, I think the beauty of them and exactly what the Founders intended for. Michael Hingson ** 43:15 Yeah, and I do think that some people are taking advantage of that and causing some challenges, but that's also part of our country and part of our government. I like something Jimmy Carter once said, which was, we must adjust to changing times while holding to unwavering principles. And I think absolutely that's the part that I think sometimes is occasionally being lost, that we forget those principles, or we want to manipulate the principles and make them something that they're not. But he was absolutely right. That is what we need to do, and we can adjust to changing times without sacrificing principles. Absolutely. Erin Edgar ** 43:55 I firmly believe that, and I would like to kind of turn it back to what we were talking about before, because you actually asked me, What are some challenges that I have faced, and if it's okay with you, I would like to get back to that. Oh, sure. Okay. Well, so I have faced some challenges for you know, to a large extent, though I was very well accommodated. I mean, the one challenge with the books that was challenging when I took the bar exam, oh, horror of horrors. It was a multiple, multiple shot deal, but it finally got done. However, it was not, you know, my failing to pass the first time or times was not the fault of the actual board of law examiners. They were very accommodating. I had to advocate for myself a little bit, and I also had to jump through some hoops. For example, I had to bring my own person to bubble in my responses on the multiple choice part, it. And bring my own person in to kind of monitor me while I did the essay portion. But they allowed me to have a computer, they allowed me to have, you know, the screen reader. They allowed me to have time and a half to do the the exam. And so we're accommodating in that way. And so no real challenges there. You know, some hoops to jump through. But it got all worked out. Michael Hingson ** 45:23 And even so, some of that came about because blind people actually had to go all the way to the Supreme Court. Yes, the bar to the Bar Association to recognize that those things needed to be that way, Erin Edgar ** 45:37 absolutely. And so, you know, I was lucky to come into this at a time where that had already been kind of like pre done for me. I didn't have to deal with that as a challenge. And so the only other challenges I had, some of them, were mine, like, you know, who's going to want to hire this blind person? Had a little bit of, you know, kind of challenge there, with that mindset issue for a while there, and I did have some challenges when I was looking for employment after I'd worked for legal aid for a while, and I wanted to move on and do something else. And I knew I didn't want to work for a big, big firm, and I would, I was talking to some small law firms about hiring me, small to mid size firms. And I would get the question of, well, you're blind, so what kind of accommodations do you need? And we would talk about, you know, computer, special software to make a talk, you know, those kinds of things. And it always ended up that, you know, someone else was hired. And I can, you know, I don't have proof that the blindness and the hesitancy around hiring a disabled person or a blind person was in back of that decision. And at the same time, I had the sense that there was some hesitation there as well, so that, you know, was a bit of a challenge, and starting my own law firm was its own challenge, because I had to experiment with several different software systems to Find one that was accessible enough for me to use. And the system I'm thinking about in particular, I wouldn't use any other system, and yet, I'm using practically the most expensive estate planning drafting system out there, because it happens to be the most accessible. It's also the most expensive. Always that. There's always that. And what's it called? I'm curious. It's called wealth Council, okay, wealth. And then the word councils, Council, SEL, and it's wonderful. And the folks there are very responsive. If I say something's not accessible, I mean, they have fixed things for me in the past. Isn't that great? And complain, isn't that wonderful? It is wonderful. And that's, that's awesome. I had a CRM experience with a couple of different like legal CRM software. I used one for a while, and it was okay. But then, you know, everyone else said this other one was better and it was actually less accessible. So I went back to the previous one, you know. So I have to do a lot of my own testing, which is kind of a challenge in and of itself. I don't have people testing software for me. I have to experiment and test and in some cases, pay for something for a while before I realize it's not, you know, not worth it. But now I have those challenges pretty much ironed out. And I have a paralegal who helps me do some things that, like she proof reads my documents, for instance, because otherwise there may be formatting things that I'm not, that I miss. And so I have the ability to have cited assistance with things that I can't necessarily do myself, which is, you know, absolutely fine, Michael Hingson ** 49:04 yeah. Now, do you use Lexus? Is it accessible? Erin Edgar ** 49:08 I don't need Lexus, yeah, yeah. I mean, I have, I'm a member of the Bar Association, of my, my state bar association, which is not, not voluntary. It's mandatory. But I'm a member primarily because they have a search, a legal search engine that they work with that we get for free. I mean, with our members, there you go. So there you go. So I don't need Lexus or West Law or any of those other search engines for what I do. And if I was, like, really into litigation and going to court all time and really doing deep research, I would need that. But I don't. I can use the one that they have, that we can use so and it's, it's a entirely web based system. It's fairly accessible Michael Hingson ** 49:58 well, and. That makes it easier to as long as you've got people's ears absolutely make it accessible, which makes a lot of sense. Erin Edgar ** 50:08 Yeah, it certainly does well. Michael Hingson ** 50:10 So do you regard yourself as a resilient person? Has blindness impacted that or helped make that kind of more the case for you? Do you think I do resilience is such an overused term, but it's fair. I know Erin Edgar ** 50:24 I mean resilience is is to my mind, a resilient person is able to face uh, challenges with a relatively positive outlook in and view a challenge as something to be to be worked through rather than overcome, and so yes, I do believe that blindness, in and of itself, has allowed me to find ways to adapt to situations and pivot in cases where, you know, I need to find an alternative to using a mouse. For instance, how would I do that? And so in other areas of life, I am, you know, because I'm blind, I'm able to more easily pivot into finding alternative solutions. I do believe that that that it has made me more resilient. Michael Hingson ** 51:25 Do you think that being blind has caused you, and this is an individual thing, because I think that there are those who don't. But do you think that it's caused you to learn to listen better? Erin Edgar ** 51:39 That's a good question, because I actually, I have a lot of sighted friends, and one of the things that people just assume is that, wow, you must be a really good listener. Well, my husband would tell you that's not always the case. Yeah. My wife said the same thing, yeah. You know, like everyone else, sometimes I hear what I want to hear in a conversation and at the same time, one of the things that I do tell people is that, because I'm blind, I do rely on other senses more, primarily hearing, I would say, and that hearing provides a lot of cues for me about my environment, and I've learned to be more skillful at it. So I, I would say that, yes, I am a good listener in terms of my environment, very sensitive to that in in my environment, in terms of active listening to conversations and being able to listen to what's behind what people say, which is another aspect of listening. I think that that is a skill that I've developed over time with conscious effort. I don't think I'm any better of a quote, unquote listener than anybody else. If I hadn't developed that primarily in in my mediation, when I was doing that, that was a huge thing for us, was to be able to listen, not actually to what people were saying, but what was behind what people were saying, right? And so I really consciously developed that skill during those years and took it with me into my legal practice, which is why I am very, very why I very much stress that I'm not only an attorney, but I'm also a counselor at law. That doesn't mean I'm a therapist, but it does mean I listen to what people say so that and what's behind what people say, so that with the ear towards providing them the legal solution that meets their needs as they describe them in their words. Michael Hingson ** 53:47 Well, I think for me, I learned to listen, but it but it is an exercise, and it is something that you need to practice, and maybe I learned to do it a little bit better, because I was blind. For example, I learned to ride a bike, and you have to learn to listen to what's going on around you so you don't crash into cars. Oh, but I'd fall on my face. You can do it. But what I what I really did was, when I was I was working at a company, and was told that the job was going to be phased out because I wasn't a revenue producer, and the company was an engineering startup and had to bring in more revenue producers. And I was given the choice of going away or going into sales, which I had never done. And as I love to tell people, I lowered my standards and went from science to sales. But the reality is that that I think I've always and I think we all always sell in one way or another, but I also knew what the unemployment rate among employable blind people was and is, yeah, and so I went into sales with with no qualms. But there I really learned to listen. And and it was really a matter of of learning to commit, not just listen, but really learning to communicate with the people you work with. And I think that that I won't say blindness made me better, but what it did for me was it made me use the technologies like the telephone, perhaps more than some other people. And I did learn to listen better because I worked at it, not because I was blind, although they're related Erin Edgar ** 55:30 exactly. Yeah, and I would say, I would 100% agree I worked at it. I mean, even when I was a child, I worked at listening to to become better at, kind of like analyzing my environment based on sounds that were in it. Yeah, I wouldn't have known. I mean, it's not a natural gift, as some people assume, yeah, it's something you practice and you have to work at. You get to work at. Michael Hingson ** 55:55 Well, as I point out, there are people like SEAL Team Six, the Navy Seals and the Army Rangers and so on, who also practice using all of their senses, and they learn, in general, to become better at listening and other and other kinds of skills, because they have to to survive, but, but that's what we all do, is if we do it, right, we're learning it. It's not something that's just naturally there, right? I agree, which I think is important. So you're working in a lot of estate planning and so on. And I mentioned earlier that we it was back in 1995 we originally got one, and then it's now been updated, but we have a trust. What's the difference between having, like a trust and a will? Erin Edgar ** 56:40 Well, that's interesting that you should ask. So A will is the minimum that pretty much, I would say everyone needs, even though 67% of people don't have one in the US. And it is pretty much what everyone needs. And it basically says, you know, I'm a, I'm a person of sound mind, and I know who is important to me and what I have that's important to me. And I wanted to go to these people who are important to me, and by the way, I want this other person to manage things after my death. They're also important to me and a trust, basically, there are multiple different kinds of trusts, huge numbers of different kinds. And the trust that you probably are referring to takes the will to kind of another level and provides more direction about about how to handle property and how how it's to be dealt with, not only after death, but also during your lifetime. And trusts are relatively most of them, like I said, there are different kinds, but they can be relatively flexible, and you can give more direction about how to handle that property than you can in a will, like, for instance, if you made an estate plan and your kids were young, well, I don't want my children to have access to this property until they're responsible adults. So maybe saying, in a trust until they're age 25 you can do that, whereas in a will, you it's more difficult to do that. Michael Hingson ** 58:18 And a will, as I understand it, is a lot more easily contested than than a trust. Erin Edgar ** 58:24 You know, it does depend, but yes, it is easily contested. That's not to say that if you have a trust, you don't need a will, which is a misconception that some, yeah, we have a will in our trust, right? And so, you know, you need the will for the court. Not everyone needs a trust. I would also venture to say that if you don't have a will on your death, the law has ideas about how your property should be distributed. So if you don't have a will, you know your property is not automatically going to go to the government as unclaimed, but if you don't have powers of attorney for your health care and your finance to help you out while you're alive, you run the risk of the A judge appointing someone you would not want to make your health care and financial decisions. And so I'm going to go off on a tangent here. But I do feel very strongly about this, even blind people who and disabled people who are, what did you call it earlier, the the employable blind community, but maybe they're not employed. They don't have a lot of Michael Hingson ** 59:34 unemployed, unemployed, the unemployable blind people, employable Erin Edgar ** 59:38 blind people, yes, you know, maybe they're not employed, they're on a government benefit. They don't have a lot of assets. Maybe they don't necessarily need that will. They don't have to have it. And at the same time, if they don't have those, those documents that allow people to manage their affairs during their lifetime. Um, who's going to do it? Yeah, who's going to do that? Yeah, you're giving up control of your body, right, potentially, to someone you would not want, just because you're thinking to yourself, well, I don't need a will, and nothing's going to happen to me. You're giving control of your body, perhaps, to someone you don't want. You're not taking charge of your life and and you are allowing doctors and hospitals and banks to perpetuate the belief that you are not an independent person, right? I'm very passionate about it. Excuse me, I'll get off my soapbox now. That's okay. Those are and and to a large extent, those power of attorney forms are free. You can download them from your state's website. Um, they're minimalistic. They're definitely, I don't use them because I don't like them for my state. But you can get you can use them, and you can have someone help you fill them out. You could sign them, and then look, you've made a decision about who's going to help you when you're not able to help yourself, Michael Hingson ** 1:01:07 which is extremely important to do. And as I mentioned, we went all the way and have a trust, and we funded the trust, and everything is in the trust. But I think that is a better way to keep everything protected, and it does provide so much more direction for whoever becomes involved, when, when you decide to go elsewhere, then, as they put it, this mortal coil. Yes, I assume that the coil is mortal. I don't know. Erin Edgar ** 1:01:37 Yeah, who knows? Um, and you know trusts are good for they're not just for the Uber wealthy, which is another misconception. Trust do some really good things. They keep your situation, they keep everything more or less private, like, you know, I said you need a will for the court. Well, the court has the will, and it most of the time. If you have a trust, it just says, I want it to go, I want my stuff to go into the Michael hingson Trust. I'm making that up, by the way, and I, you know, my trust just deals with the distribution, yeah, and so stuff doesn't get held up in court. The court doesn't have to know about all the assets that you own. It's not all public record. And that's a huge, you know, some people care. They don't want everyone to know their business. And when I tell people, you know, I can go on E courts today and pull up the estate of anyone that I want in North Carolina and find out what they owned if they didn't have a will, or if they just had a will. And people like, really, you can do that? Oh, absolutely, yeah. I don't need any fancy credentials. It's all a matter of public record. And if you have a trust that does not get put into the court record unless it's litigated, which you know, it does happen, but not often, Michael Hingson ** 1:02:56 but I but again, I think that, you know, yeah, and I'm not one of those Uber wealthy people. But I have a house. We we used to have a wheelchair accessible van for Karen. I still have a car so that when I need to be driven somewhere, rather than using somebody else's vehicle, we use this and those are probably the two biggest assets, although I have a bank account with with some in it, not a lot, not nearly as much as Jack Benny, anyway. But anyway, the bottom line is, yeah, but the bottom line is that I think that the trust keeps everything a lot cleaner. And it makes perfect sense. Yep, it does. And I didn't even have to go to my general law firm that I usually use. Do we cheat them? Good, and how so it worked out really well. Hey, I watched the Marx Brothers. What can I say? Erin Edgar ** 1:03:45 You watch the Marx Brothers? Of course. Michael Hingson ** 1:03:49 Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and I'm glad that we did it and that we also got to talk about the whole issue of wills and trusts and so on, which is, I think, important. So any last things that you'd like to say to people, and also, do you work with clients across the country or just in North Carolina? Erin Edgar ** 1:04:06 So I work with clients in North Carolina, I will say that. And one last thing that I would like to say to people is that it's really important to build your support team. Whether you're blind, you know, have another disability, you need people to help you out on a day to day basis, or you decide that you want people to help you out. If you're unable to manage your affairs at some point in your life, it's very important to build that support team around you, and there is nothing wrong. You can be self reliant and still have people on your team yes to to be there for you, and that is very important. And there's absolutely no shame, and you're not relinquishing your independence by doing that. That. So today, I encourage everyone to start thinking about who's on your team. Do you want them on your team? Do you want different people on your team? And create a support team? However that looks like, whatever that looks like for you, that has people on it that you know, love and trust, Michael Hingson ** 1:05:18 everybody should have a support team. I think there is no question, at least in my mind, about that. So good point. Well, if people want to maybe reach out to you, how do they do that? Erin Edgar ** 1:05:29 Sure, so I am on the interwebs at Erin Edgar legal.com that's my website where you can learn more about my law firm and all the things that I do, Michael Hingson ** 1:05:42 and Erin is E r i n, just Yes, say that Edgar, and Erin Edgar ** 1:05:45 Edgar is like Edgar. Allan Poe, hopefully less scary, and you can find the contact information for me on the website. By Facebook, you can find me on Facebook occasionally as Erin Baker, Edgar, three separate words, that is my personal profile, or you can and Michael will have in the show notes the company page for my welcome as Michael Hingson ** 1:06:11 well. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. This has been a fun episode. It's been great to have Erin on, love to hear your thoughts out there who have been listening to this today. Please let us know what you think. You're welcome to email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, I wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We really appreciate getting good ratings from people and reading and getting to know what you think. If you know anyone who you think might be a good guest, you know some people you think ought to come on unstoppable mindset. Erin, of course, you as well. We would appreciate it if you'd give us an introduction, because we're always looking for more people to have come on and help us show everyone that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are, and that's really what it's all about, and what we want to do on the podcast. So hope that you'll all do that, and in the meanwhile, with all that, Erin, I want to thank you once more for being here and being with us today. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much, Erin Edgar ** 1:07:27 Michael. I very much enjoyed it. Michael Hingson ** 1:07:34 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite

Episode 374 – Unstoppable Marketer with Gee Ranasinha

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 26, 2025 75:08

Sit back and relax but pay attention to my conversation with Gee Ranasinha. Gee lives in the Northeast part of France. As he puts it, his marketing experience goes back to the “days of dial-up internet and AOL CDs”. During our conversation Gee tells us how he progressed from working with film, (do you know what that is?), to now working with the most advanced digital and other technological systems. He is the CEO of his own marketing company KEXINO. He talks a bit about what makes a good marketing firm and why some companies are more successful than others. He says, for example, that most companies do the same things as every other company. While labels and logos may be different, if you cover up the logos the messages and ways to provide them are the same. The successful firms have learned to distinguish themselves by being different in some manner. He practices what he preaches right down to the name of his company, KEXINO. He will tell us where the company name came from. You will see why I says he practices what he preaches. Gee gives us a great history of a lot of marketing efforts and initiatives. If you are at all involved with working to make yourself or your company successful marketing wise, then what Gee has to say will be especially relevant to you. This is one of those episodes that is worth hearing more than once. About the Guest: Gee has been in marketing since the days of dial-up internet and AOL CDs. Today, he's the CEO of KEXINO, a marketing agency and behavioral science practice for small to medium-sized businesses. Over the past 17 years KEXINO has helped over 400 startups and small businesses in around 20 countries grow awareness, reputation, trust - and sales. A Fellow of the Chartered Institute Of Marketing, Gee is also Visiting Professor at two business schools, teaching Marketing and Behavioral Science to final-year MBA students. Outside of work Gee loves to cook, listens to music on a ridiculously expensive hi-fi, and plays jazz piano very badly. Ways to connect with Gee: KEXINO website: https://kexino.com LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/ranasinha YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Kexino Instagram: https://instagram.com/wearekexino TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@kexino Threads: https://www.threads.net/@wearekexino BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/kexino.com About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:16 Well and a gracious hello to you, wherever you may be, you are now listening to an episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Mike or Michael. I don't really care which hingson and our guest today is Gee Ranasinha, who is a person who is very heavily involved in doing marketing and so on. Gee has been marketing for a long time, and reading his bio, he talks about being in marketing since the days of dial up and AOL and CDs. I remember the first time I tried to subscribe to AOL. It was a floppy disk. But anyway, that's okay. The bottom line is that does go back many, many years. That's when we had Rs 232 cables and modems. Now people probably don't mostly know what they are unless they're technically involved and they're all built into the technology that we use. But that's another history lesson for later. So Gee, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. This should be a fun subject and thing to talk about. Gee Ranasinha ** 02:27 Well, thank you very much for inviting me, Michael, I do. I do appreciate it. Michael Hingson ** 02:31 Well, I'm looking forward to it and getting a chance to talk. And love to hear some of your your old stories about marketing, as well as the new ones, and of course, what lessons we learned from the old ones that helped in the new ones. And of course, I suspect there'll also be a lot of situations where we didn't learn the lessons that we should have, which is another story, right? Gee Ranasinha ** 02:50 Yeah, history does tend to repeat itself, unfortunately, and Michael Hingson ** 02:55 that usually happens because we don't pay attention to the lessons. Gee Ranasinha ** 02:59 Yeah, yeah, we, we, I think we think we know better. But I mean, it's, it's, it's funny, because, you know, if you look at other other industries, you know, if, if you want to be an architect, right, you would certainly look back to the works of, you know, Le Corbusier or Frank Lloyd Wright or Renzo Piano, or, you know, some of the great architects, and you would look back on their work, look how they did it. And you would, you know, turn back the the annals of history to to see what had gone before. But for some reason, in our industry, in marketing, we we don't think we can learn from the lessons that our erstwhile peers have had in the past, and we've so as a result, we tend to sort of rename things that have gone before, so that the newer generation of marketers will actually pay attention to them. So we give things new names. But actually, if you, if you scratch the surface and look a little bit deeper. It's actually nothing new at all. And I don't quite know why that is. I think people think that they know better than the people who've gone before them, because of the technology, because you know so much of the execution the promotion side of marketing is technology based. They I'm guessing that people don't see a relevance to what happened in the past because of the technology aspect being different, right? But what I contend is that the the essence. Of marketing is about understanding human behavior and their reactions to particular inputs, impulses, right? Um, in which case, we have plenty to learn from the people who've you know, who've walked in our in the walk this path before, and we should be a little bit, maybe a little bit more humble and open minded into accepting that we don't know everything, and we maybe don't even know what we don't know. Michael Hingson ** 05:36 I always remember back in what was it, 1982 or 1983 we had a situation here in the United States where somebody planted some poison in a bottle of Tylenol in a drug store. I remember that, yeah, and within a day, the president of the company came out and said, This is what we're going to do to deal with it, including taking all the bottles of all the pills off the shelves until we check them over and make sure everyone is clean and so on. And he got right out in front of it. And I've seen so many examples since of relatively similar kinds of crises, and nobody takes a step to take a firm stand about how we're going to handle it, which is really strange, because clearly what he did really should have taught us all a lesson. Tylenol hasn't gone away, the company hasn't gone away, and the lesson should be that there is relevance in getting out in front of it and having a plan. Now I don't know whether he or anyone really had a plan in case something happened. I've never heard that, but still whatever he got right out in front of it and addressed it. And I just really wish more marketing people, when there is a crisis, would do more of that to instill confidence in consumers. Gee Ranasinha ** 07:07 He did the right thing, right? He did, he did what you or I would have done, or we would like to think we would have done in this place, right? I, I'm, I'm guessing it was probably, not the favorite course of action, if this had been debated at board stroke shareholder level. But like I said, he he did what we all think we would have done in his place. He did the right thing. And I think that there are many instances today, more instances today than maybe in the past, where the actions of an individual they are. An individual has more freedom of expression in the past than they've had in the in the present, and they don't have to mind their P's and Q's as much. I mean, sure we know we're still talking about profit making organizations. You know, we're living in a pseudo capitalist, Neo liberal society. But surely we're still there still needs to be some kind of humanity at the end of this, right? You know, reputations take years, decades, sometimes, to build, and they can be knocked down very quickly, right, right? There's so I think some somebody, somebody, somebody a lot older and wiser than me, well, certainly wiser older. Said a brand's reputation was like a tree. It takes ages to grow, but can be knocked down very quickly, and there are plenty. You know, history is littered with examples of of organizations who haven't done the right thing. Speaker 1 ** 09:16 Well, the Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. Tell me Michael Hingson ** 09:20 the I observed this actually not too long ago, on a podcast, this whole discussion to someone, and they made an interesting point, which I think is probably relevant, which is, today we have a different environment, because we have social media. We have so many things, where communications go so quickly, and we we see so many people putting out information right or wrong, conspiracy or not, about anything and everything that comes up, that it causes people maybe to hesitate a little bit more to. Truly study what they want to say, because everyone's going to pick up on it. But at the same time, and I appreciate that at the same time, I think there are basic marketing principles. And as you point out, and as you're well aware, there is such a thing as human behavior, and while people want instant gratification, and they want to know right now what happened 20 minutes ago. The reality is we're not necessarily going to get that. The media doesn't help because they want to put everything out and get the story. But still, the reality is human nature is human nature, and ultimately, Truth will win out. And what we need to do is to really work more toward making sure that that happens. Gee Ranasinha ** 10:48 I, I actually don't agree with that. Okay, in in, you know, in the, in the with the greatest respect, firstly, I think, I think as a cop out to use social media, information channels, news cycles, that sort of thing, because, if anything, because of the pace of the news cycle and The, you know, the fire hose of social media today, me, we're in a better position to say what we mean and not regret it, because it's forgotten it 20 minutes. Yeah, so it works, it's, it's an argument for what we're talking about not, not against Michael Hingson ** 11:41 it, yeah. I agree. Yeah, go ahead, Gee Ranasinha ** 11:45 yeah. And the second thing you said, truth will out. And I think truth does not without and there are plenty of people who continue to spout out misinformation and disinformation, yeah, constantly at every level of corporate at a corporate level, at a political level, at a geopolitical level, or at a local level, right? I don't want to sort of go down that rabbit hole, right, but there are, there are plenty of misquotes, myths, truths, which are never, never withdrawn and never counted, never excused and live out there in the ether, in perpetuity. Michael Hingson ** 12:35 Yeah, it's true, but I also think that in the end, while some people continue to put their inaccurate information out, I think there are also others who have taken the time, or do take the time they put out more relevant information, and probably in the long run, more people buy into that than to misinformation. I'm not going to say it's a perfect world, but I think more often than not, enough positive information comes out that people eventually get more of the right answer than all the yammering and bad information. But it may take time. Gee Ranasinha ** 13:18 I would love to believe that, Mike, I really would maybe I'm just too cynical, right? Michael Hingson ** 13:27 I hear you, I hear you, and you know, I don't know I could be just as wrong. I mean, in the United States today, we've got a government with people who are definitely talking about things and saying things that most of us have always felt are untrue, but unfortunately, they're being said and pushed in such a way that more people are not opposing them. And how quickly that will change remains to be seen. And for all I know, and I think, for all I know, maybe some of what they're saying might be right, but we'll see. Gee Ranasinha ** 14:05 I think that's the issue. I mean, I, as I said, I don't really want to jump down that politics rabbit hole, but no, not really. I think, you know, the issue is, if you say a lie enough times, people believe it. Yeah, right, yeah. And the fact that nobody's fact checking this stuff, I'm like, I said. I'm not. I'm not singling out politics. I'm singling out messaging in its widest in its widest interpretation, right, false messaging of any sort, if left unchecked. Yeah. Correct. I think the people who know an alternative reality or know that it's a lie know that it's an untruth by not publicly facts checking it, by not calling these. People out are complicit in spreading the lie. Michael Hingson ** 15:03 Yeah, well, I think that's true, and you're right. It doesn't matter whether it's politics. It doesn't matter whether it's well, whatever it is, it's anything. And I think there's one of the beauties of of our country, your country. And I didn't explain at the beginning that G is in the you said, northwest part of France, right? Northeast, northeast, well, east, west, northeast part Gee Ranasinha ** 15:29 of Yeah, well, near enough, you know, if you go, if you go, if you go east, far enough times you get, you get to West Anyway, don't you? Well, you get back where you started. Or maybe you don't, I don't know if, depends who you listen Michael Hingson ** 15:39 to, right? If the Earth is flat. Well, even the Flat Earthers have had explanations for why the earth is flat and people don't fall off, but that's okay, but yeah, so northeast part of France and and I hear, I hear what you're saying, and I think it's important that people have the freedom to be able to fact check, and I, and I hope, as we grow more people will find the value of that, but that in all aspects, but that remains to be seen. Gee Ranasinha ** 16:14 Well, I think especially in you know, perversely, now that we have the ability to check the veracity of a piece of information a lot easier, right? Almost in real time. Yeah. I think the fact that we can means that we don't, you know, you probably know the quote by what was his name? Edwin Burke, who may or may not have said that, you know, evil triumphs when good men do nothing or something like that. Along that sort of lines, some people say that he didn't say that. He did say, it doesn't matter who said it, right? It's a great quote. It's a great quote. It's a great quote. And that's what I mean about being complicit, just by the fact of not calling this stuff out, feeds the fire. Yeah, to the to the point where it becomes and especially, I'm talking with people who maybe are a little bit younger and haven't and are more likely to believe what they see on screens of whatever size, simply because it's in the public domain, um, whereas The older strokes more cynical of us may may question a lot more of what's thrown in front of our eyes. So I think all of us have a responsibility, which I don't think all of us understand the power that we yield or we're afraid to or afraid to? Yeah, absolutely. Michael Hingson ** 18:08 So tell me a little about kind of the early Gee growing up and so on, and how you got into this whole idea and arena of marketing and so on. Gee Ranasinha ** 18:18 Well before this, I was the CMO of a software company. I was there for seven years, and before that, I was working for a company in London, working with in the print and publishing industries. So I've been around media for most of my working life, and after, after being at the software company for seven years, sort of hit a little bit of a ceiling, really. I mean, the company was a small company, and it could only grow at a certain rate, and so I wasn't really being challenged anymore. I had to wait a little bit until the company could fill the bigger shoes that had been given, if you like. You know, I mean growing pains. It's very common for companies of all sizes to go through this sort of thing. So to be honest, I probably was treading water a bit too long. But you know, you get you get complacent, don't you, you get comfortable in in the, you know the corporate job, and you know a salary at the at the end of every month, and you know corporate travel and company BMWs and expense accounts and all of that sort of trappings. And you know, I, I fell for all of that. You. Um, but I finally realized that something needed to happen. So at the end of 2007 beginning of 2008 Me and a couple of colleagues decided to start the agency, which, as you will remember, 2008 was not exactly the best time to start a marketing agency. Good time to start any agency, Michael Hingson ** 20:29 to be honest. The other hand, there were a lot of opportunities. But yeah, I hear you. Well, yeah, Gee Ranasinha ** 20:34 glass half full. Glass half empty, right? Yeah. But you know, luckily, with with a number of very, very supportive clients in those early days, you know, we weathered the post recession? Yeah, slow down. And 17 and a half years later, here we are. We've now. We started off with three. We were three. We're now 19. We're in nine countries. Nine of us were in the US. The rest are in Europe, South Africa, Japan, and two people in Australia. That's that, that's, that's who we are. So, you know, we're a a team of marketing, creative and business development specialists, and we work with startups and small businesses primarily in the US, even though we're based all over the place, and we combine marketing strategy, proper strategy, with a thing called behavioral science, which works with organizations to increase their awareness, their reputation, their trust, and most of all, of course, sales Right? Because sales is name of the game. Sales is what it's all about. So yeah, I'd say probably 80, 90% of our clients are in the US and, well, certainly North America anyway, and it's all sorts of industries, all sorts of sizes. We've we've got, we certainly had in the past. You know, solopreneur type businesses, small businesses and larger businesses, up to around 40 to 50 mil to revenue that sort of size, anything bigger they usually have, usually got, you know, quite well, working teams within the organization. So we're, you know, the amount of effective contribution that we can add to that is, it's obviously going to be as a percentage, much lower. So it's, it's, it's really for that, that smaller sized profile of organization, and it's not sort of limited by particular industry or category. We've, you know, we work with all sorts. We've worked in sports, healthcare, FinTech, medical, professional services, software, publishing, all sorts, right across the board. Michael Hingson ** 23:34 What got you started in marketing in the beginning, you you know you were like everyone else. You were a kid and you grew up and so on. What? What really made you decide that this was the kind of career you wanted? Gee Ranasinha ** 23:46 Marketing wasn't my first career. I've had a few others in the past. I actually started off my first first company, and I founded, way back when was a media production company. I was a professional photographer, advertising photographer, working with advertising agencies as well as direct corporate commissions. This is in the days of film. This was way before digital image capture. Michael Hingson ** 24:20 So this is going back to what the 1980s Gee Ranasinha ** 24:23 it's going to late 80s to early 90s. Yeah, and I was working with eight by 10 and four by five view cameras, sometimes called plate cameras. It was mainly studio stuff. I was happier in the studio that we did location stuff as well. But studio was where I was happiest because I could control everything. I suppose I'm on control freak at the end of the day. So I can control every highlight, every nuance, every every part of the equation. And. And and that's where I started. And then after doing that for a while, I came I got involved with professional quality digital image capture. Is very, very it is very, very beginning. And was instrumental in the the adoption of digital image capture for larger print and publishing catalog fashion houses who were looking for a way to streamline that production process, where, obviously, up until then, the processing of film had been a bottleneck, right? You couldn't, you couldn't process film any quicker than the film needed to be processed, right the the e6 process, which was the the term for using a bunch of chemicals to create slides, die, positives, transparencies. I think it used to take like 36 minutes plus drying time. So there was a, you know, close to an hour wait between shooting and actually seeing what what the result was. And that time frame could not be reduced up until that point in time, the quality of digital image capture systems wasn't really all of that, certainly wasn't a close approximation to what you could get with with film at The time, until a number of manufacturers working with chip manufacturers, were able to increase the dynamic range and the the total nuances that you could capture on digital Of course, the problem at that time was we were talking about what, what were, What today is not particularly large, but was at the time in terms of file sizes, and the computers of the day would be struggling to deal with images of that high quality, so It was always a game of catch up between the image capture hardware and the computer hardware needed to to view and manipulate the image and by manipulate it was more more manipulation in terms of optimizing the digital file for reproduction in print, because obviously that was the primary carrier of, yeah, of the information. It was for use in some kind of printed medium. It wasn't like we were doing very much with with email or websites or anything else in the in the early 90s. So the conversion process to optimize a digital image captured file, to give the best possible tonal reproduction on printed material has always been a little bit of a black art, even when we when we were digitizing transparency films, going to digital image capture made things a lot more predictable, but it also increased the computational power needed, number one, but also for photographers to actually understand a little bit more about the photo mechanical print process, and there were very few photographers who understood both, both sides of the fence. So I spent a lot of time being a pom pom girl. Basically Mike. I was, I was, I was waving the pom poms and preaching large about the benefits of digital image capture and how and educating the industries, various in photographic industries, about, you know, possible best practices. There weren't any sort of standards in place at the time, Michael Hingson ** 29:41 and it took a while for people to really buy into that they weren't visionary enough to understand what you were saying. I bet Gee Ranasinha ** 29:48 Well, we were also taught very few were enough, and there were two reasons. One of them was financially based, because. We were talking about a ton of money, yeah, to do this properly, we were talking about a ton of money. Just the image capture system would easily cost you 50 grand. And this, you know this, this was in the days when 50 grand was a lot of money, Michael Hingson ** 30:18 yeah, well, I remember my first jobs out of college were working with Ray Kurzweil, who developed Omni font, optical character recognition system. Oh, my goodness me, I did not know that. And the first machine that he put out for general use, called the Kurzweil data entry machine, was only $125,000 it worked. It still took a while to make it to truly do what it needed to do, but still it was. It was the first machine, and a lot of people just didn't buy into it. It took a while to get people to see the value of why digitizing printed material was so relevant, some lawyers, Some law firms, some banks and so on, caught on, and as people realized what it would do, then they got interested. But yeah, it was very expensive, Gee Ranasinha ** 31:14 very expensive. And I think the other reason for the reticence is just nature, to be honest. Mike, I mean, you know, as as people, as human beings, most of us are averse to change, right? Because change is an unknown, and we don't like unknowns. We like predictability. We like knowing that when we get up in the morning, the sun's gonna come up and we're gonna go through our our usual routine, and so when something comes along that up ends the status quo to the point where we need to come up with adopting new behaviors that's very uncomfortable for many people. And you know, the adoption of digitization in, you know, any industry, I think, in everybody who's worked in any particular industry has has plenty of anecdotal evidence to show how people would consciously or unconsciously dragging their feet to adopt that change because they were happier doing stuff that they knew, Michael Hingson ** 32:32 who went out of their comfort zone, right? Gee Ranasinha ** 32:35 Absolutely, it's natural, it's, it's, it's who we are as as as human beings, who most of us are as human beings with, obviously, we're talking about the middle of the bell curve here. I mean, there are plenty of wackos on either side just go out and do stuff, right? And, you know those, you know, some of those get, you know, locked up with in straight jackets. But the other ones tend to, sort of, you know, create true innovation and push things forward. Michael Hingson ** 33:04 Steve Jobs, even Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, good examples of some of the people who did things that most people didn't think could be done. Gee Ranasinha ** 33:18 You know, the true innovation always happens at the periphery, but we tend to over emphasize the median. We know we try to make averages of everything, yeah, but averages aren't what moves the needle, right? No. And you know Britain, you know, for even for marketing, obviously, that's very much, very, very much my sort of thing. Um, most organizations, most business owners, certainly most marketing managers, find comfort in in executing their marketing in ways in which they are comfortable, in ways which are somewhat expected within the industry. But the problem is, it doesn't get you noticed. It doesn't get you attention. If you're in the middle, right? You know the worst, the worst place to walk on the in the street is in the middle of the road right, pick a side, but don't walk in the middle. 34:27 Not a good idea yet. Gee Ranasinha ** 34:30 That's our our job is to is to, number one, generate attention, because there's no way we can communicate a message unless we have someone's attention. Everything starts from the attention side of things. Now there are very, you know, various ways that we can attract attention, but attention needs to come and needs to come from somewhere. And you know the definite. Of creating attention is to to create some kind of visual, audio, or combination of the two, experience which is somewhat outside of the norm, and create some kind of emotional response that our brains want to pay attention to, right? Want to notice? Because if you're not noticed, then there's no it doesn't matter how great your product is, doesn't matter how wonderful your customer service is, or it's available in 27 colors, or it's free delivery, or what you know, all the rest of it doesn't matter, because you know, unless people know who you are, what you do, who it's for, and why they should give a crap, then you know anything else you do after that Time is is moot, is irrelevant. Michael Hingson ** 36:00 I read an interesting email this morning from someone who was talking about why speakers don't tend to be as successful as they should be. And this person talked about you could have the greatest speech in the world. You could be Michael Hingson ** 36:17 talking and getting standing ovations and so on, but you're not getting a lot of speaking engagements, and his comment was the reason you're not is that your talk isn't necessarily relevant. I thought that was interesting. I think there's some things to be said for relevance, but I think it's also that you're not helping to get people to think and realize that being different and getting people to think and value that is more important than we tend to want to recognize as well. Gee Ranasinha ** 36:59 I would, I would, I would wholeheartedly agree relevance is a very important component. But, you know, I maintain that it starts with attention. Yeah, relevance, I think, within the speaking world, I yes, there's so much we can do with relevance by by coming at a subject matter topic from a totally different perspective. Yeah, right. You know, just because you have the same message as 100 other competitors doesn't mean they have to say something in the same way, right? And so even if the core message is similar, the way that we choose to present that can be, you know, 100 101 different ways. And I think that is something that we forget, and I think that's one of the reasons why so much of the marketing that we see today is ignored. Yeah, you know, there's a there's a marketing Well, I wouldn't say the marketing model. There's a communication model, okay? Sales model actually called Ada, Ida, a, I D, A, okay. So even if you've not, not worked in sales or marketing at all, if you've even seen the film Glengarry Glynn Ross, or the play that it was based on. It's actually playing in New York City at the moment. I believe, yeah, a, I D, A, which is tracking the customer experience in four steps. So the idea is you have awareness, interest, desire and action, right? A, I, D, A, and it's understanding that there are four steps to getting to the position of negotiating the deal with a prospective buyer, but number one starts with awareness. You know they need, they need to be aware that you exist and nobody's going to buy from you if they don't know who you are. They need to know who they need to know who you are before they'll buy from you. Right then obviously needs to be an interest a product market fit what you're selling is something that they could conceivably use in terms of solving a particular problem that they perceive as having the desire. Why should they buy from you, as opposed to somebody else? Why do they. Need to buy your product, as opposed to a competitive product, and then finally, action, right? So that's what we might call sales, activation or performance marketing, or, you know, sales in the old terms, right? As they would say in that film, it's getting the getting the buyer to sign on the line that is dotted. But all of this stuff starts with attention and when we're not doing a very good job, I think as a mark, as an industry, we used to be really good at it, but I think we've taken our eye off the ball somewhat, and hoped that technology would fill in the gaps of our incompetence at being able to, excuse me, being able to shape the way that we market to customers, to buyers, in ways which create the memory structures in the brain to a sufficiently acute level so that when they are in The position to buy something, they think of us, as well as probably a number a handful of other suitors that solve their problem. And this is why, I think this is the reason why, because of the over reliance of technology, I mean, this is the reason why so much of our marketing fails to generate interest, sales to generate the tangible business results that are expected of it. Because we're, we're marketing by bullet point. We're expecting buyers to buy off a fact sheet. We've, we've exercised the creativity out of the equation. And we're and, and we were just producing this vacuous, generic vanilla Michael Hingson ** 42:12 musach, yeah, if you Gee Ranasinha ** 42:14 like, Okay, I mean, again, you know, think of any particular industry, you can see this. It's pretty much endemic. You can have two totally different organizations selling something purportedly solving the same problem. And you can look at two pieces of you can look at a piece of marketing from each company. And if you covered up the logo of each person of each company's marketing output, 10 will get you five that what's actually contained in the messaging is as equally valid for company A as it is for Company B, and that's a real problem. Michael Hingson ** 43:00 It's not getting anyone's attention or creating awareness. Gee Ranasinha ** 43:03 It's not creating attention or awareness. And worse, it's creating a level of confusion in the buyer's mind. Because we're we're looking for comparisons, we're looking at a way to make an educated decision compared to something else, and if we can't see why product A is miles ahead in our minds of Company B or product B, what often happens is rather than make a wrong decision, because we can't clearly differentiate the pros and cons between the two products, what we end up doing is nothing. We walk away. We don't buy anything, because we can't see a clear winner, which impacts company A and company B, if not the entire industry. And then they turn around and say, Oh, well, nobody's buying. Why? Why? Why is our industry lagging behind so many others? It's because we're just on autopilot, creating this, this nonsense, this generic sea of sameness in terms of communication, which we just don't seem to have a grip on the fundamental understanding of how people buy stuff anymore. We used to Yeah, up and up and up until probably the 90s. We used to know all this stuff. We used to know how get people going, how to stand out, how to create differentiated messaging, how to understand. Or what levers we could pull to better invoke an emotional reaction in the minds of the target buying audience that we're looking to attract. And then for some for, you know the if we plotted these things around two curves, you know, the point at which these curves would cross would probably be the adoption of technology, Michael Hingson ** 45:29 whereas we came to reproduce the same thing in different ways, but you're still producing the same thing. The technology has limited our imagination, and we don't use re imaginations the way we used to. Gee Ranasinha ** 45:43 We we've we're using, we're using technology as a proxy for reach. And getting in front of 1000 eyeballs or a million eyeballs or 100 million eyeballs doesn't necessarily mean any of those eyeballs are fit in the ideal customer profile we're looking to attract. Right? More doesn't mean better, and what what we're doing is we're trying to use technology to to fill in the gaps, but technology doesn't understand stuff like human emotion, right, and buying drivers and contextual messaging, right? Because all of this stuff human behavior is totally contextual, right? I will, I will come up with a and I'm sure you're the same thing. You will have a particular point of view about something one day and the next, the very next day, or even the very next hour, you could have a totally different viewpoint on a particular topic, maybe because you've had more information, or just maybe for the for the hell of it, right? We know we are we are not logical, rational, pragmatic machines that always choose the best in inverted commas solution to our issue. Michael Hingson ** 47:23 Do you think AI will help any of this? Gee Ranasinha ** 47:29 I think AI will help in terms of the fact that it will show how little we know about human behavior, and so will force forward thinking, innovative marketers to understand the only thing that matters, which is what's going on between the ears of the people we're trying to attract. I think AI is already showing us what we don't know, not what we know, Michael Hingson ** 48:04 right? And it's still going to be up to us to do something about that and use AI as a tool to help possibly create some of what needs to be done. But it still requires our thought processes ultimately, to make that happen, Gee Ranasinha ** 48:23 AI can't create. All AI can do is remix what has already been in existence, right? Ai doesn't create what AI does. The thing is, we're using AI for the wrong stuff. AI is really good at a ton of things, and it sucks big time at a load of other things. But for some reason, we want to throw all our efforts in trying to make it better at the things it's not good at, rather than use it at the things that it's really, really good Michael Hingson ** 49:04 at, such as, Gee Ranasinha ** 49:08 such as interpreting large data sets, Creating models of financial models, marketing models, marketing matrix, matrices, spotting, spotting trends in data, large, huge, like huge models of data, which no human being could really, in reality, Make any head in the tail of finding underlying commonalities in in the data to be able to create from that, to be able to draw out real, useful insights on that data to create new. New messaging, innovative products, services that we haven't thought of before because we haven't been able to see the wood for the trees, 50:13 if you like, yeah, right Gee Ranasinha ** 50:17 for that sort of stuff, for the grunt work, for the automation. You know, do this, then do this, and all of that sort of stuff, A, B, testing, programmatic stuff, all of that stuff, banner ads and, you know, modifying banner all of that stuff is just basic grunt work that nobody needs, needs to do, wants to do, right? Give it all to AI it. Most AI is doing it, most of it anyway. We just never called it AI. You know, we've been doing it for 25 years. We just called it software in those days, right? But it's the same. It's the same goddamn thing. Is what we were doing, right? Let it do all of that stuff, because it's far better. And let's focus on the stuff that it can't do. Let's find out about what levers we need to pull at an emotional level to create messaging that better resonates in the minds of our buyers. That's what we need to do. Ai can't do that stuff right. Michael Hingson ** 51:16 Where I think AI is is helpful today, as opposed to just software in the past, is that it has been taught how better to interact with those who use it, to be able to take questions and do more with it, with them than it used to be able to do, but we still have to come up with the problems or the issues that we wanted to solve, and to do it right, we have to give it a fair amount of information which, which still means we've got to be deeply involved in the process. Gee Ranasinha ** 51:53 I mean, where it's great. I mean, if we're looking at, you know, Text, type, work, right, right, or I, or ideas or possibilities, or actually understanding the wider consideration set of a particular problem is that the hardest thing is, when you're staring at a blank piece of paper, isn't it? Right? We don't need that's the hardest thing, right? So we don't need to stare at a blank sheet anymore with a flashing cursor, right? You know, we can engage in a pseudo conversation that we need to take into consideration that this conversation is taking place based upon previous, existing ideas. So the chance that we'll get something fresh and original is very, very small. And as you just mentioned, you know, the quality of the prompt is everything. Get the prompt wrong and without enough granularity, details, specificity, whatever else you get just a huge piece of crap, don't you? Right? So in other words, having a better understanding of how we as humans make decisions actually improves our prompting ability, right, right? Michael Hingson ** 53:12 And I think AI, it is not creative, but I think that AI can spew is probably the wrong word, but AI can put out things that, if we think about it, will cause us to do the creating that we want, but it's still going to be assets involved in doing that. Gee Ranasinha ** 53:35 The problem is, and what we're seeing, certainly in the last couple of months, maybe even longer, maybe I just haven't noticed. It is just we were, you know, there's this old saying, you know, just because you can doesn't mean you should, right? I just see an absolute tsunami of vacuous, generic nonsense being spouted out across all types of channels, digital and otherwise, but mainly digital, all of it AI generated. Sometimes it's images, sometimes it's videos, sometimes it's both, sometimes it's text, whatever. But we we're adding to the noise instead of adding to the signal. So the inevitable result of all of this is going to be numbness. We're going to becoming different to marketing of all sorts, the good stuff as well as the bad. You're going to be it's we're just gonna get numb. So it's going to make the attention stuff. That's why I've been banging on about attention all this time, right? It's gonna, it's, yeah, there's, see, there is a method to my madness here. So the the point is that creation and maintaining. Attention is going to be even harder than it would have been before. Yeah, and, and we, you know, we're getting to the point where, you know, you've got agentic AI, where you've got agents talking to other agents and going around in this feedback loop. But we're not, we're not, we're not creating any emotional engagement from a, from a from a buyer perspective, from a user perspective, yes, it all looks great. And as a, as an exercise in technology, it's fantastic. So wonderful, right? But how has it increased sales? That's what I want to know has has it reduced or altered the cost of acquiring a customer and maintaining that customer relationship, because that's where the rubber hits the road. That's all that matters. I don't care whether it's a technological masterpiece, right, but if it hasn't sold anything, and actual sales, I'm not talking about likes and comments and retweets and all of that crap, because that's vanity metrics. Is nonsense Michael Hingson ** 56:11 signing a contract. It's, you know, Gee Ranasinha ** 56:16 there needs to be as an exchange of money at some point in time. Yeah, right. Is that happening? And I contend that it's not. And I think there are loads of people, loads of business owners, who are throwing money at this in the vain hope they you know that basically they're playing the numbers. They just need one horse to come in, 100 to one to be able to justify what they've spent on all of this stuff, right? Yeah, but I think those odds are getting longer and longer as each month goes, yeah. Well, you I think there's going to be an inevitable backlash back to stuff that actually resonates with people at a human level, at an emotional level, a psychological level, it has to Michael Hingson ** 57:08 you started your marketing company 17 and a half years ago, caxino. Where'd that name come from? Gee Ranasinha ** 57:18 From nothing? Okay, it doesn't mean anything I needed. I needed to have something which number one, that the domain was available. Of course, I needed to have something which was short, something that didn't mean, you know, something incongruous in another language and and so after a lot of to ing and fro ing, there were two schools of thought. At the beginning, we didn't know whether to go with something abstract, like caxino or something which was, you know, based based upon the the butting up of two existing words you know, like you see, you know, so many times, you know, big red table, or, you know, whatever. So we did, we decided to go with something abstract, so that we weren't encumbered by language. Michael Hingson ** 58:22 You practiced what you preach pretty much. You're different, yeah, but why don't you call it? You don't refer to it as a digital marketing agency. Why is that? Gee Ranasinha ** 58:34 No, I don't see us as a digital marketing agency, because digital marketing is not all we do. And not only that, I think, Well, I think there's, there's a number of reasons. Number one, I think we're using the word digital is, is a curveball. Firstly, because everything that we do is digital, right? Everything is already digital. Print is digital, TV is digital, billboards are digital. So saying digital is like saying electrical, electrical marketing agency, it makes as much sense to be honest. So that's number one. But I think the bigger issue is that by categorizing a marketing agency as being a digital marketing agency does a disservice to its work and indeed its outlook, because The object is not to be digital in your marketing, it's to do marketing in a digital world, which are two very different positions, okay? Because digital, the way that we're talking about it, is not a attributive noun, and it's certainly not an adjective. You. In the context that we're talking about it, digital is a channel. It's simply one way of getting in front of our audience. But it's not the only way of getting in front of our audience. Okay? So, yeah, along with many other reputable agencies, we happen to use the most appropriate channel of communication that makes sense to address a particular target audience group, and that's it. Okay, if that's digital, great. If that's walking down the street with an A frame with something written on the front of it, that's also great, okay, but it's, it's, it's not about it's not about the channel. It's about you being in the places where our target target audience group expects us to be. And so that's why I don't think of us as a digital marketing agency, because digital is only part of what we do, right? And we do many other things. And also, I think it puts it, it puts blinkers on things right? Because if you know, supposing, supposing you go to a Facebook marketing agency, of which there are many. Now, if you go to a Facebook marketing agency and you say, Okay, I want to do some ads. Where should I advertise? What are they going to tell you? Right, maybe Facebook, right? So there's, there's a thing called Maslow's hammer. Okay, in Maslow, as in the hierarchy, the Hierarchy of Needs Maslow. Okay to say, Maslow. He came up with this idea of Maslow's hammer. It's also known as the law of the instrument. And basically what it means, we can distill it down, is, if all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail, okay? And what that means is, you're looking to solve any problem that comes along by the tools that you have in your toolbox, regardless of whether that's the best way of moving forward, which I think is a very short term and myopic view. So that's why we we don't like to think of ourselves as the marketing agency, because there are many other there are many ways of solving a particular problem, and it doesn't necessarily have to be Michael Hingson ** 1:02:50 digital, Gee Ranasinha ** 1:02:51 digital or promotional or, you know, it's, it's like, you know, are we a video marketing agency? No. Does that mean we don't do video, not at all. Of course, we do it, right? We're not an AI marketing agency, right? In the same way, okay, when we're not a we're not a YouTube marketing agency, Michael Hingson ** 1:03:11 you're a marketing agency. We're a marketing agency, right? What are some of the biggest mistakes that small businesses make when it comes to marketing? Gee Ranasinha ** 1:03:21 I think the single biggest mistake, and I speak to business owners pretty much on a daily basis, right? I think the single biggest issue that comes up again and again and again is something which I call self diagnosis, which is the business owner, approaches the marketing agency, or even digital marketing agency, approaches the marketing agency, and says, You know what, I need you to do this for me. Whatever that this is, okay. So you know, maybe it's some digital ads, maybe it's some videos, maybe it's a website, maybe it's a whatever. It doesn't matter what it is, but basically, the business owner is coming to us, coming to the marketing agency, dictating what the tactic is to be, which presumes a number of things, not least, that they think they have come to the conclusion that this particular tactic is going to solve their marketing problem based upon usually waving a wet finger in the air, yeah, or they've seen a YouTube video or something, okay, it's not based on any marketing knowledge experience or education, because, with the greatest respect, these people do not have any marketing knowledge experience. Into education, right? And why would they? Because they're running a business, right? They don't, you know, they it doesn't mean that they've had to do this marketing stuff. So they're, they're, they're presuming that a particular tactic is going to solve a business problem, a marketing tactic is going to solve a business problem. And so what what happens is the the particular tactic is is executed. Nothing changes revenue wise. And so the business owner says, well, that marketing agency was crap. Let's go to another marketing agency and ask them to do something else. So it's playing pin the tail on the donkey. Really, just trying stuff and hoping so. The point is that. The point is that if you're going to pay somebody who does this for a living, the idea that you know more than they do is already setting the relationship on a uneven kill, right? Yeah, you know, if I, if I go, if I go and see my doctor, and I say, and I wake up in the morning and I've got a pain in my chest, and I thinking, oh my goodness, I go and see the doctor, right? So on the way to the doctor's office, I do the worst thing possible, which is go on the internet and say, Okay, what does pain in my chest mean? Right? And I go into the doctor's office, and I sit down and I say, Okay, I've got a pain in my chest, doctor, that means I've got angina. Can you give me some heart medication, please? What's the doctor gonna tell you? Doctor's gonna tell you, shut the hell up. Yeah, I'm the doctor in the office. I'm the actually, where's, Where's, where's your medical degree doesn't exist, does it? No, and Michael Hingson ** 1:07:00 just because you have a broken rib, we're not going to talk about that. Are we right? Gee Ranasinha ** 1:07:04 So, What? What? So what's the doctor going to do? The doctor is going to ask you a bunch of questions, right? What did you do the last couple of days? Right? What did you eat? Did you go to the gym and over exert yourself? What's your history? Do you is there a history of heart disease in the family, you know, maybe there's is going to he or she is going to take some blood, maybe they're going to run a few other sort of tests. They're going to do a diagnosis, and at the end of this diagnosis, the doctor is going to come back to you and say, You know what? So, based upon all the questions that you've kindly answered, and based upon the blood work and all these other tests and scans we've done, it turns out that the the pain in your chest is nothing to do with angina. The reason you got a pain in the chest is because you had some spicy food last night. So you don't have you don't have Anjali, you have gas. Yeah, right, right, so I prescribe you a couple of packs of Tums. Yeah, sorted, right. And that's the point. The point is the doctor knows what he or she is doing, and you have to have confidence in that particular medical practitioner to diagnose the issue and prescribe a solution to that issue, right? Your job is not to say what you think is wrong with you at this stage of the conversation. Your job is to tell me where it hurts. That's it right now, I'll come back to you with a list of things which I think we need to do to move forward. Now you can go and get a second opinion, just like at a doctor's office. You may think I'm full of crap, which is absolutely your prerogative. Or you may say, I know better than you. I'm going to do my own thing, which, again, it's your time Absolutely. But if it all goes to crap, you can't turn around and say, well, if only this person had said this, or, you know, If only, if only, if only, and play the victim, because that's also just not going to wash. And I see this time and time and time again. You know, we've tried, well, we've tried a number of different agencies, and none of them have been able to help us. And then you sort of dig a bit deeper, and it's because they're never allowed to do what they're supposed to do, because they've always been second guessed. Yeah, that is probably the single biggest issue that I see coming up again and again and again with small business in market now, if and if it's a question of not having faith in that. Uh, agency, then you shouldn't have been employed. You shouldn't have that agency in the first place. Michael Hingson ** 1:10:05 Get a second opinion. Gee Ranasinha ** 1:10:07 You know, not all, not all agencies are great, just like not all plumbers are great. Not all mechanics are great. Same thing, right? It takes time to find the good ones, right? Um, but just because you found a bad one, because I don't know they were cheap, or they were local, or they were whatever, you know, whatever, whatever criteria you tend to use to base your decision upon, right? You can't, you can't criticize what they did if you didn't allow them to do what they were actually being paid to do. Michael Hingson ** 1:10:47 Well, speaking of that, if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Gee Ranasinha ** 1:10:53 Best way to get hold of me. Gee is on LinkedIn. I spend most of my time on LinkedIn. I post twice a week. I post videos about some of the sorts of things that we've been talking about today, and they're only sort of 60 seconds long, 90 seconds long. It's not sort of taking up anybody's time very much. You can find me there. Would you believe, Mike, there is only 1g runner scene on LinkedIn. Can you imagine fortuitous? How fortuitous is Michael Hingson ** 1:11:27 that? Yeah, really, and G is spelled G, E, and how do you spell your last name? Gee Ranasinha ** 1:11:33 You could eat. I'm sure all of this still, the stuff will be put in. It will, but I just figured it we could. But yeah. G, renasina, you can find me there. Otherwise, obviously you can find us on Kexino, k, e, X, I, N, o.com, which is the website, and there's plenty of information there textual information, there are videos, there are articles, there are all sorts of bits and pieces that you can find more about us Michael Hingson ** 1:12:04 there. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful, and I really appreciate you taking more than an hour to chat with us today. And I hope this was fun, and I hope that people will appreciate it and will reach out to you and value what we've discussed. I think it's been great love to hear from all of you out there. Please feel free to email me. Michael H, i@accessibe.com so that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and love to hear from you wherever you're listening. Please give us a five star rating. We value those ratings very highly, and we'd love to to to hear and see you rate us and get your thoughts. If you know of anyone else who might be a good guest for unstoppable mindset. Gu as well, we'd sure appreciate your referring them to us. Introduce us. We're always looking for more people to to chat with, so please do that and again, gee, I just want to thank you one more time for being here. This has been great, Gee Ranasinha ** 1:13:02 absolute pleasure, delighted to be invited. Michael Hingson ** 1:13:10 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Episode 372 – Unstoppable Operaspymaster with Kay Sparling

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 19, 2025 68:02

Operaspymaster you may ask? Read on and listen to this episode. In this powerful and multifaceted episode of Unstoppable Mindset, we welcome Kay Sparling, former opera singer, PTSD survivor, and now debut novelist—as she shares her incredible life journey from international stages to the shadowy world of espionage fiction. Kay talks about the creation of her first novel, Mission Thaw, a gripping spy thriller based on her own real-life experiences volunteering with refugees in post-Cold War Europe. Kay and Michael discuss the inspiration behind her protagonist, CIA agent Caitlin Stewart, and how real-world trauma and service led Kay to use fiction as both a vehicle for healing and a call to action on the modern crisis of human trafficking. This is a conversation that transcends genres—music, espionage, activism, and resilience—all converging through the unstoppable spirit of a woman who refuses to stay silent. About the Guest: Kay Sparling was raised in the Midwest. At the age of seven, she began her professional singing career as Gretl in “The Sound of Music” and she continued to perform through high school. After graduation Kay attended University of Kansas and earned a BME in music education and a minor in Vocal Performance. She then attended graduate school in opera voice performance for one year at UMKC Conservatory of Music. She was awarded a grant to finish my graduate studies in Vienna, Austria. From there she won an apprenticeship at the Vienna State Opera. After moving to NYC to complete her second apprenticeship, Kay lived in Germany, Austria, and Italy for many years. In 1999 Kay returned to NYC and continued singing opera and became a cantor for the NYC diocese. After 9/11, she served as a cantor at many of the funeral and memorial masses for the fallen first responders. In 2003, Kay moved from NYC to the upper Midwest and started a conservatory of Music and Theatre where her voice students have been awarded numerous prestigious scholarships and won many competitions. In 2020, the pandemic shut down her conservatory, so she began training to be a legal assistant and now works in workers compensation. Back in 2013, Kay had started writing a journal as a PTSD treatment. She was encouraged to extend the material into a novel. After much training and several drafts, Mission Thaw was published in 2024. Kay is currently writing the second book in the Kaitlyn Stewart Spy Thriller Series. Ways to connect with Kay: Website: https://www.kaysparlingbooks.com X: https://x.com/MissionThaw/missionthaw/ Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/missionthaw.bsky.social Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/505674375416879 Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kay-sparling-8516b638/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/missionthaw/ Litsy: https://www.litsy.com/web/user/Mission%20Thaw About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:16 Well, hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Mike hingson, and our guest today is a very fascinating individual. I was just teasing her a little bit about her email address, which is operaspy master@gmail.com I'm telling you, don't cross her. That's all I gotta say. Anyway, we'll, we'll get into all of that. But I really am glad that she is with us. Kay Sparling is a fascinating woman who's had an interesting career. She's written, she's done a number of things. She's used to be an opera, gosh, all sorts of stuff. So anyway, we'll get to all of it and we'll talk about it. I don't want to give it all away. Where would the fun in that be? Kay, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Kay Sparling ** 02:11 Well, thank you. I'm glad to be here. Well, Michael Hingson ** 02:13 we're glad you're here. You're from up in Wisconsin. We were going to do this a couple of weeks ago, but you had all the storms, and it stole your internet and your power away, didn't Kay Sparling ** 02:23 it? It sure did. Yeah, that was a terrible storm we had. Michael Hingson ** 02:28 Yeah, that's kind of no fun. I remember years ago, I was talking to somebody on the phone. We were doing a sales call, and he said, I might not be able to stay on the phone because we're having a really serious storm, and he said it is possible that the lightning could hit the phone lines, and if it does, it could come in the house. And we talked for a few minutes, and then he said, I'm going to have to hang up, because I just felt a small shock, because the lightning obviously hit the phone line, so we'll have to talk later. And and he was gone. And we did talk later, though he was okay, but still, wow, yeah, there's a lot of crazy weather going on, isn't there? And we were just talking about the, we were just talking about the Canadian wildfires. They're No fun. Kay Sparling ** 03:15 No, no. Just everywhere is having crazy weather. Michael Hingson ** 03:20 Well, tell us a little bit about you growing up and all that sort of stuff, and telling me about the the early K Kay Sparling ** 03:32 Well, growing up, I grew up in a farm community in the in the central Midwest, just you know, right in the middle of the bread basket, you might say, not near where you are now. No no, no further south and in very much agriculture time, I mean skipping ahead. I remember talking to a famous opera conductor when I was an apprentice, and I made some reference, and he goes, Well, how would you know that? And I said, because I grew up on a farm. And he went, Oh, get out here. Nobody makes it, you know, to a major European opera house from a farm. And I went, Well, I did. And later, I asked my mom to send me a picture, because we had had an aerial view taken of our homestead, and it was obvious for miles, all the way around the house and the barn and all, it was just corn fields and soybeans. You know what they showed Michael Hingson ** 04:40 Illinois, Illinois, and so you showed it to him, yeah, Kay Sparling ** 04:44 I showed it to him, and he was like, well, doggone, you're not lying. Like, No, I wasn't kidding you. I really did. Michael Hingson ** 04:51 It shows how good I really am. See how far I progressed. Kay Sparling ** 04:55 Well, you know, I was one of these kids. I. At five years old, I my parents took me to see sound and music at the theater, and during the intermission. Now I'm five years old, it's pretty late for me, right? But when we're in the concession stand, I tug at my mom's skirt, and I say, Mom, that's what I want to do. And she looks at me kind of funny, and she's kind of funny, and she's kind of confused. Well, what do you want to do work in a theater? You know, a movie theater? No, no, I want to do what those kids are doing on that on the movie screen. And she was like, Well, honey, you know, that's that's really hard to get somewhere like that. So that was when I was five. And then when I was seven, she just, you know, the all the school and the church were telling her, this kid's got a great voice, and they kept giving me solos and stuff. And so when I was seven, she put me in the Sangamon County Fair Little Miss competition. And of course, my talent was singing, so I just sang away. I really can't remember what I sang, but afterwards, a fellow came up to my parents and introduced himself, and he said that he was there, he had family, not, you know, in the area, and that he had grown up there, but since then, he he was in St Louis, and he said, we are, I'm a scout, and I'm looking, I'm an entertainment Scout, and I'm actually looking for, you know, the von trop children. We're going to do a big production, and we'd love to audition your daughter. Well, we were about, think it was an hour and a half away from St Louis, so my parents are like, wow, that'd be quite a commitment. But long story short, I did it, and that started my professional career. I was the youngest Bon Troy. You know, over cradle, yeah. And so it just went from there. And, you know, it was all Broadway, of course, and I did a lot of church singing, you know, it got to be by the time I was, you know, in high school, people were hiring me for weddings, funerals, all that kind of thing. And so I was a Broadway and sacred singer. Went to college. My parents said, you can't depend on a vocal performance degree. What if things don't work out? You have to have something fall back. So I went into vocal music ed at a very, very good school for that, and also music therapy, and, you know, continue being in their shows. And when I when I graduated, continued the Broadway, and one night I was also singing a little bit of jazz in Kansas City, where I was living, someone approached me. She was a voice teacher at the conservatory there, and that conservatory had an apprenticeship with the Kansas City Lyric Opera. And she said I knew you was an undergrad. My husband works where you, where you went to school, and I have been watching you for a long time. And I wish you quit this nonsense of singing Broadway and jazz and rock and everything and get serious, you know, and try opera. So I thought she was crazy to bring that up, but it wasn't the first time it had been brought up. So I have been teaching for a year, and at the end of that school year, I announced everyone I was going to graduate school and I was going to study opera. And so Michael Hingson ** 08:55 what were you teaching? Kay Sparling ** 08:57 I was teaching high school choir, okay, at a very big high school, very, very good choir department. Michael Hingson ** 09:03 Now, by the way, after doing Gretel, did you ever have any other parts as you grew older in Sound of Music? Kay Sparling ** 09:11 Okay, that's a very cool question. I am one of the few people that I know that can say I have sang every major role in Sound of Music sometime in my life. Ah, okay, because it was so popular when I was Oh, yeah. And as I would grow older, well now you're going to sing, you know, you just kept graduating up. And then pretty soon I sang quite a few Marias. And then after I was an opera singer. During covid, I was asked to sing Mother Superior. Mother Superior. Yeah, literally, have sung, you know, in a decades long career, I've sung every role in Sound of Music. Michael Hingson ** 09:56 Cool. Well, that's great. 10:00 Yeah, so, so, anyway, so Michael Hingson ** 10:02 you said that you were going to go study opera, Kay Sparling ** 10:07 and I did a graduate school, and then I got the chance to get an international grant over to Europe, and so I decided to not finish my masters at that time and go over there and finish it, and most of all, importantly, do my first apprenticeship in Europe. And so I thought that was a great opportunity. They were willing. They were going to willing to pay for everything. And I said I would be a fool to turn this down. Yeah, so off I went, and that's kind of the rest of the story. You know, got a lot of great training, left Europe for a while, moved to New York City, trained best coaches and teachers in the world at the Metropolitan Opera and then, you know, launch my career. Michael Hingson ** 11:04 So you Wow, you, you've done a number of things, of course, going to Europe and being in Vienna and places like that. Certainly you were in the the right place. Kay Sparling ** 11:16 Yes, yes, definitely. You know, at that time in the in the middle 80s, United States was we had some great opera houses Iran, but we had very few. And it just wasn't the culture that it was in Europe, in Europe. And so, yes, there was a lot more opportunity there, because there was such a culture established there already. Michael Hingson ** 11:44 So you went off and you did Europe and saying opera, what were you a soprano? Or what were you that sounds like a way a little high for your voice? Kay Sparling ** 11:59 Well, you have to remember, I'm a senior citizen now. So this is the way it worked for me, because we're talking decades from the age 27 and I quit singing at 63 so that's a very long time to sing opera. So I started out, as you know, there is a voice kind of category, and each one of those, we use a German word for that. It's called Foch, F, A, C, H, and you know, that is determined by the kind of vocal cords you have, and the kind of training and the literature you're singing, and hopefully that all meshes together if you have good coaches and a good agent and such. And I literally have seen so many different Fox lyric, lyric mezzo, then to, very shortly, lyric soprano, and then for a long time, spinto soprano, which would be the Puccini and a lot of them really popular things. And then I was, I felt I was quite lucky that my voice did have the strength and did mature into a Verdi soprano, which is a dramatic soprano, not many of those around. And so that was, that was an endeavor, but at the same time, that was a leg up. And so most of the time in my career, I sang the bigger Puccini, like, let's say Tosca, and I sang a lot of Verdi. So I was an Italian opera singer. I mostly sang in Italian, not to say that I didn't sing in German or French, but I did very little in comparison to the Michael Hingson ** 13:56 Italian Well, there's a lot of good Italian opera out there, although mostly I don't understand it, but I don't speak Italian well. Kay Sparling ** 14:07 The great thing about most houses now is, you know, you can just look at the back of the seat in front of you, and there's the translation, you know, yeah, that Michael Hingson ** 14:18 doesn't work for me. Being blind, that doesn't work for you. Yeah, that's okay, though, but I like the music, yeah. So how long ago did you quit singing? Kay Sparling ** 14:32 Um, just about, well, under, just a little under three years ago, okay? Michael Hingson ** 14:38 And why did you quit? This was the right time, Kay Sparling ** 14:42 senses or what I had a circumstance, I had to have throat surgery. Now it wasn't on my vocal cords, but it was on my thyroid, and unfortunately, the vocal cord nerve. They had to take out some Cyst On. My right thyroid, and then remove it too. And unfortunately, my vocal cords were damaged at that time, I would have probably be singing still now some you know, I mean, because dramatic sopranos just can go on and on and on. One of my mentors was Birgit Nielsen, famous singer from Sweden, and she was in my grandmother's generation, but she didn't, I went to work with her, and she demonstrated at 77 she could still pop out of high C. And I believe, I believe I would have been able to do that too, but you know, circumstances, you know, changed, but that's okay. Yeah, I had sung a long time, and at least I can speak. So I'm just very happy about that. Michael Hingson ** 15:51 So when you did quit singing, what did you decide to go do? Or, or, How did, how did you progress from there? Kay Sparling ** 16:01 Well, I had already made a transition where I had come in 2003 to the Midwest. I came back from New York City, where I lived many, many years, and I started a conservatory of music and acting, and then that kind of grew into a whole conservatory of music. So I was also a part time professor here in Wisconsin, and I taught voice, you know, one on one vocal lessons, so high school and college and graduate school, and so I had this huge studio. So when that happened, I wasn't getting to sing a whole lot, because I was much more focused on my students singing me at that point, especially the older ones, professional ones, and so, you know, I just kept teaching and and then I had started this book that I'm promoting now, and so that gave me more time to get that book finished Michael Hingson ** 17:10 and published. What's the name of the book? Kay Sparling ** 17:13 The book is called Mission, thaw. Michael Hingson ** 17:16 Ah, okay, and what is it about Kay Sparling ** 17:22 mission thaw is feminist spy thriller set at the very end of the Cold War in the late 80s, and the main protagonist is Caitlin Stewart, who it who has went over there to be an opera singer, and soon after she arrives, is intensely recruited by the CIA. They have a mission. They really, really need a prima donna Mozart soprano, which is what Caitlin was, and she had won a lot of competitions and won a grant to go over there, and so they had been vetting her in graduate school in the United States. And soon as she came to Europe, they they recruited her within a couple weeks of her being there, and she, of course, is totally blindsided by that. When they approach her, she had she she recognized that things were not exactly the way they should be, that people were following her, and she was trying to figure out who, are these people and why are they following me everywhere? Well, it ends up being young CIA agents, and so when the head chief and his, you know, the second chief, approach her, you know, she's not real happy, because she's already felt violated, like her privacy has been violated, and so she wasn't really too wonderful of listening to them and their needs. And so they just sort of apprehend her and and throw her in a car, in a tinted window Mercedes, and off they go to a park to talk to her, right? And so it's all like crazy movie to Caitlin. It's like, what is going on here? And, you know, she can tell they're all Americans, and they have dark suits on, even though it's very, very hot, and dark glasses, you know? So everything is just like a movie. And so when they approach her and tell her about what they need her to do, you know, and this would be in addition to the apprentice she is doing that, you know, she just gets up and says, I'm sorry I didn't come over and be in cloak and dagger. A, you know, ring, I'm getting out of here. And as she's walking away, the chief says, Well, what if you could help bring down the Berlin Wall? Well, now that stops her in her tracks, and she turns around. She goes, What are you kidding? I'm just a, you know, an opera apprentice from the Midwest grew up on a farm. What am I gonna do? Hit a high C and knock it down. I mean, what are you talking about? Michael Hingson ** 20:28 Hey, Joshua, brought down the wealth of Jericho, after all. Well, yeah, some Kay Sparling ** 20:34 later, someone tells her that, actually, but, but anyway, they say, well, sit down and we'll explain what we need you to do. And so the the initial job that Caitlin accepts and the CIA to be trained to do is what they call a high profile information gap. She has a wonderful personality. She's really pretty. She's very fashionable, so she can run with the jet set. And usually the jet set in Europe, the opera jet set is also where all the heads of states hang out, too. And at that time, the the Prime Minister was pretty much banking the Vienna State Opera where she was apprenticing. So he ends up being along with many other Western Austrian businessmen in a cartel of human trafficking. Who they are trafficking are all the the different citizens of the countries that USSR let go. You know, when you know just got to be too much. Remember how, oh yeah, we're going to let you go. Okay? And then they would just pull out. And there was no infrastructure. There was nothing. And these poor people didn't have jobs, they didn't have electricity. The Russian mafia was running in there trying to take, you know, take over. It was, it was chaos. And so these poor people were just packing up what they could to carry, and literally, sometimes walking or maybe taking a train into the first Western European country they could get to. And for a lot of them, just because the geographical area that was Austria. And so basically, the Austrians did not want these people, and they were being very unwelcoming and arresting a lot of them, and there was a lot of lot of bad behavior towards these refugees. And so the Catholic church, the Catholic Social Services, the Mennonite Relief Fund, the the UN and the Red Cross started building just tent after tent after tent on the edge of town for these people to stay at. And so the businessmen decide, well, we can traffic these people that have nothing over to the East Germans, who will promise them everything, but will give them nothing. But, you know, death camps, basically, just like in World War Two. So you have work camps, you have factories. They they don't feed these people correctly. They don't they don't give them anything that they promise to them in in the camps. And they say, Okay, be on this train at this time, this night. And then they stop somewhere in between Vienna and East Germany, in a very small train station in the middle of the Alps. And they have these large, you know, basic slave options. And unfortunately, the children in the older people get sent back to the camp because they don't need them or want them. So all the children get displaced from their families, as well as the senior citizens or anyone with a disability. And then, you know, the men and the women that can work are broken up as well, and they're sent to these, you know, they're bought by these owners of these factories and farms, and the beautiful women, of course, are sold to either an individual that's there in East German that just wants to have a sex aid, pretty much. Or even worse, they could be sold to an underground East Berlin men's club. And so terrible, terrible things happen to the women in particular, and the more that Caitlin learns. As she's being trained about what's happening, and she interviews a lot of these women, and she sees the results of what's happened, it, it, it really strengthens her and gives her courage. And that's a good thing, because as time goes through the mission, she ends up having to be much, much more than just a high profile social, you know, information gather. She ends up being a combat agent and so, but that that's in the mission as you read, that that happens gradually and so, what? What I think is really a good relationship in this story, is that the one that trains her, because this is actually both CIA and MI six are working on this, on this mission, thought and the director of the whole mission is an very seasoned mi six agent who everyone considers the best spy in the free world. And Ian Fleming himself this, this is true. Fact. Would go to this man and consult with him when he was writing a new book, to make sure you know that he was what he was saying is, Could this really happen? And that becomes that person, Clive Matthews become praying, Caitlyn, particularly when she has to start changing and, you know, defending herself. And possibly, you know, Michael Hingson ** 26:38 so he becomes her teacher in Kay Sparling ** 26:42 every way. Yes. So how Michael Hingson ** 26:45 much? Gee, lots of questions. First of all, how much of the story is actually Kay Sparling ** 26:50 true? All this story is true. The Michael Hingson ** 26:53 whole mission is true. Yes, sir. And so how did you learn about this? What? What caused you to start to decide to write this story? Kay Sparling ** 27:08 So some of these experiences are my own experiences. And so after I as an opera singer, decided to be a volunteer to help out these refugees. I witnessed a lot, and so many years later, I was being treated for PTSD because of what I'd witnessed there. And then a little bit later in Bosnia in the early 90s, and I was taking music therapy and art therapy, and my psychiatrist thought that it'd be a good idea if also I journaled, you know, the things that I saw. And so I started writing things, and then I turned it in, and they had a person that was an intern that was working with him, and both of them encouraged me. They said, wow, if, if there's more to say about this, you should write a book, cuz this is really, really, really good stuff. And so at one point I thought, Well, why not? I will try. So this book is exactly what happened Caitlin, you know, is a real person, and everyone in the book is real. Of course, I changed the names to protect people and their descriptions, but I, you know, I just interviewed a lot of spies that were involved. So, yes, this is a true story. Michael Hingson ** 29:06 Did you do most of this? Then, after your singing career, were you writing while the career, while you were singing? Kay Sparling ** 29:13 I was writing while I was still singing. Yeah, I started the book in 2015 Okay, and because, as I was taking the PTSD treatment and had to put it on the shelf several times, life got in the way. I got my my teaching career just really took off. And then I was still singing quite a bit. And then on top of it, everything kind of ceased in 2018 when my mother moved in with me and she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, but Louie body Alzheimer's, which is a very, very rough time, and so I became one of her caretakers. So I quit singing, put that on hold, and I. I had to really, really bring down the number in my studio I was teaching and spend time here at home. And so I would take care of her, but then after she would go to bed, and she'd go to bed much earlier than I wanted to, that's when I write, and that's when I got the lion's share of this book written. Was during that time, it was a great escape from what I was dealing with, believe it or not, you know, even though there's some real graphic things in the book and all it wasn't, it was a nice distraction. Michael Hingson ** 30:36 Wow, so you, you lived this, needless to say, Kay Sparling ** 30:41 Yes, I did, and yes. Michael Hingson ** 30:45 So you've talked a little bit about what happened to these countries after the collapse of the USSR and communism and so on, these eastern companies, companies, countries. Has it changed much over the years. Kay Sparling ** 31:03 Oh, yeah, for instance, one, you know, I went to Budapest after they were freed, I guess is what usr would say. Stayed in a five star hotel, and we were lucky if we had running water and electricity at the same time. And every time you went down on the streets, all you'd see is lines, you know, I mean, just because there'd be all like, Red Cross, etc, would be there, and they'd have these big trucks they drove in every day, and it just got to be because they had nothing. If you saw a truck, you'd start running towards it and get in line. You didn't care what it was, you know, and it was. And then fights would break out because they wouldn't have enough for everyone. And then, like, you know, maybe someone's walking away with a bag of rice, and some of us knock them over the head and take, you know, and it was very hard, you know, I was a volunteer there, and it was very, very hard to see this, you know, desperation, one story that I'd like to tell, and I put it in the book. I was riding my bike, you know, on a Friday afternoon to get some groceries at the nearest supermarket where my apartment was, and at that time, they still had the European hours, so they were going to close at five o'clock, and they weren't going to open until seven or eight on Monday morning. So you had to make sure you got there to get your weekend supply. So I was on my way, and I was parking my bike, and this woman, refugee woman, runs up and she has two small children with her, and she's carrying a baby, and she's speaking to me in a language I did not know. I do speak several languages, but I don't know Slavic languages and so, but I'm getting the gist of it that she has nothing to eat, neither do her children, and so I'm patting her on the shoulder, and right when I do that, a policeman that was guarding the door of the supermarket came up to me and, like, grabbed me really hard, and told me in German that I was not To speak to them, and I was not to help them, because if you help them, they'll stay. And I said to him in German, I'm an American. I am not Austrian. I am here on a work visa, and I can do whatever the hell I want to do. Well, he didn't like that. And so I just walked away from him, and I went in the store. And so I got up everything I get. Think of the big need, you know, I never had a baby, so I was trying to kind of figure that out, yeah, and I had to figure it out in German, you know, looking at labels now. And so finally I got, I got some stuff, you know, the stuff I needed, and, and, and the stuff that I got for the family, and I checked out, and I'm pushing the cart, you know, towards them. And he runs up beside me and stops me, and he says, I am going to arrest you if you bring that. I told you not to help them. And I said, again, I don't think I'm breaking any laws. And he said, Oh yes, you are. And I said, Well, I didn't read that in the papers. I didn't see it on TV where anyone said. That you cannot help a refugee. And so we're going back and forth. And so, you know, I'm pretty strong, so I just keep pushing it towards it. Well, she's kind of running down the park, and I'm like, wait, wait, you know, because she's getting scared of this guy, you know, he has a gun, he has a nightstick. Of course, she's scared, and so, you know, I would say, No, no, it's okay, because I can't speak for language, right? And so I'm just trying to give her body language and talk. Well, finally she does stop, and I just throw I give the one sack to the little boy, and one second little girl, they just run and and then, you know, I'm talking to her and saying, you know, it's okay, it's okay. And he grabs me, and he turns me around and he spits in my face. Michael Hingson ** 35:53 Wow. Talk about breaking the law. But anyway, go ahead. Kay Sparling ** 36:00 Welcome to Austria in the late 80s. You have to understand their Prime Minister Kurt voltheim won on the Nazi ticket. Mm, hmm. At that very time, if you got on a bus and you saw these businessmen going to work, at least 50% of them were reading the Nazi paper. Okay, so we kind of know what, where his affiliations lie. You know, this policeman and, you know, and I was very aware, you know, of of that party being very strong. And so you have to watch yourself when, when you're a foreigner. And I was a foreigner too, just like her. And so after wiping my face, I mean, I really, really wanted to give him a kick or something, yeah, and I do, I do know martial arts, but I was like, no, no, gotta stay cool. And I just told her to run. And she did and caught up with the children, and, you know, kept running. So that was the first experience I had knowing how unwelcome these people were in Austria. Yeah, so I got involved, yeah, I got involved because I was like, this is absolutely not right. Michael Hingson ** 37:31 And so the book is, in part, to try to bring awareness to all that. I would think Kay Sparling ** 37:36 absolutely there are, there are bits of it are, they're pretty darn graphic, but it's all true, and it's all documented. Sometimes people about human trafficking, they think, oh, it's not in my backyard. I'm not going to think about that. Well, I live in a very small college town, around 17,000 people, and two months ago, on the front page of this small paper here in town, there were seven men that were arrested for many counts of human trafficking of underage women and prostitution. So guess what, folks, it is in your backyard. If it's in this little town, it's probably in yours too. And we have to be aware before we can do anything. So we have to open our eyes. And I hope this book opens the eyes of the reader to say, Oh, my God, I knew things were bad, but I didn't realize that torture, this kind of thing went on. Well, it does, and I the International Labor Union estimates that 21 million people are being you. You are victims of human trafficking right now, as we speak, throughout the world, that's a lot of people, a lot of people. So most likely, we've all seen some hint of that going on, it didn't register as it at the time. You know, if you're just walked out of a restaurant, and you're walking to your car that's parked on the street, and you happen to go by an alley and there's restaurants on that row, and all of a sudden you see people being kind of shoved out and put in a truck. That's probably human trafficking, you know? And you know, a lot of people don't pay attention, but like, if they stop and think that doesn't look right, and if those people look like they may be from another country, yeah. And all you have to do is call the authorities, you know, and other ways that you can help are by you know, that that you can get involved. Are, you know, donate to all the different organizations that are finding this now. Michael Hingson ** 40:19 Was the book self published, or do you have a publisher? Kay Sparling ** 40:25 I self published, but it's more of a hybrid publishing company that's kind of a new thing that's going on, and so I cannot learn all those different facets of publishing a book, right? It just wasn't in my, you know, skill set, and it also wasn't even interesting to me. I don't want to learn how to do graphic illustration. Okay? So what I did is I hired a hybrid company that had all these different departments that dealt with this, and I had complete artistic control, and I was able to negotiate a great deal on my net profits. So I feel that, after looking into the traditional publishing world and not being exactly pleased with it to say the least, I think that was the right business choice for me to make, and I'm very happy I did it. Michael Hingson ** 41:46 How do you market the book then? Kay Sparling ** 41:48 Well, that was, that was the tricky part that that publisher did have some marketing they started, but obviously now they agreed it wasn't enough. So at that point, I attended a virtual women's publishing seminar, and I really paid attention to all the companies that were presenting about marketing. And in that time, I felt one that I just was totally drawn to, and so I asked her if we could have a consultation, and we did, and the rest is history. I did hire her team and a publicist, Mickey, who you probably know, and, yeah, it's been going really great. That was the second smart thing I did, was to, you know, hire, hire a publicity. Michael Hingson ** 42:50 Well, yeah, and marketing is one is a is a tricky thing. It's not the most complicated thing in the world, but you do have to learn it, and you have to be disciplined. So good for you, for for finding someone to help, but you obviously recognize the need to market, which is extremely important, and traditional publishers don't do nearly as much of it as they used to. Of course, there are probably a lot more authors than there used to be too. But still, Kay Sparling ** 43:19 yeah, their their marketing has changed completely. I remember I had a roommate that became a famous author, and just thinking about when he started, you know, in the 80s, how the industry is completely changed. Mm, hmm, you know. So, yeah, it's, it's really tricky. The whole thing is very tricky. One thing that I also did is one of my graduate students needed a job, and so I've known her since, literally, I've known her since eighth grade. I have been with this student a long time, and she's done very well, but she really is a wiz at the social media. And so she made all my accounts. I think I have 12 altogether, and every time I do something like what I'm doing tonight, soon as it's released, she just puts it out there, everywhere and and I have to thank her from again that that's probably not my skill set. Michael Hingson ** 44:37 Well, everyone has gifts, right? And the the people who I think are the most successful are the people who recognize that they have gifts. There are other people that have gifts that will augment or enhance what they do. And it's good that you find ways to collaborate. I think collaborating is such an important thing. Oh, yeah. All too many people don't. They think that they can just do it all in and then some people can. I mean, I know that there are some people who can, but a lot of people don't and can't. Kay Sparling ** 45:12 Well, I've got other things. I've got going, you know, so maybe if I only had to do the book, everything to do with the book, that would be one thing, but I, you know, I have other things I have to have in my life. And so I think that collaboration is also fun, and I'm very good at delegating. I have been very good at delegating for a long time. When I started my school. I also started a theater company, and if you know one thing, it's a three ring circus to produce an opera or a musical, and I've done a lot of them, and yeah, I would have not survived if I didn't learn how to delegate and trust people to do their own thing. So what are you Michael Hingson ** 45:58 doing today? What are you doing today? Besides writing? Kay Sparling ** 46:04 Well, during covid, everything got shut down, and I didn't have an income, and I had to do something. And one of, believe it or not, one of my parents, of one of my students, is an attorney for the state of Wisconsin, and she was very worried. I mean, it looked like I might lose my house. I mean, I literally had no income. And so, you know, I was a small business person, and so she offered me very graciously to come work in the department of workers compensation in the legal Bureau at the state of Wisconsin. So I never have done anything like that in my life. I have never sat in a cubicle. I've never sat in front of a computer unless it was in its recording studio or something like that. So it was a crazy thing to have to do in my early 60s, but I'm a single woman, and I had to do it, and and I did, and it put me on solid ground, and that was one reason I couldn't finish the book, because I didn't have to worry about a live cookie. And so I am continuing to do that in so as in the day, that is what I do. I'm a legal assistant, cool. Michael Hingson ** 47:32 And so when did mission thought get published? Kay Sparling ** 47:38 Mission thought almost a year ago, in August of 2024 it launched, yes, okay, yeah. And it was very scary for me, you know, because my hybrid publishers up in Canada, and they were telling me, Well, you know, we're going to get you some editorial reviews and we're going to have you be interviewed. And you know, those very first things where my editor at at the publisher had told me it was one of the really a good book, and that was one of the cleanest books she ever had to edit. And so that kind of gave me some confidence. But you understand, look at my background. I I didn't go to school to be a writer. I had never studied writing. I hadn't done any writing up until now, and so to that was my first kind of sigh of relief when the editor at the publisher said it was really a good book, and then I started getting the editorial reviews, and they were all stellar, and they continue to be. And I'm, I'm still a little shocked, you know, because it takes time, I guess, for a person to switch gears and identify themselves as an author. But you know, after a year now, I'm feeling much more comfortable in my shoes about that. But at first it was, it was trying because I was scared and I was worried, you know, what people were going to think about the book, not the story, so much as how it was crafted. But it ends up, well, Michael Hingson ** 49:15 it ends up being part of the same thing, and yeah, the very fact that they love it that that means a lot. Yeah, so is, is there more in the way of adventures from Caitlin coming up or what's happening? Kay Sparling ** 49:30 Yeah, this is hopefully a trilogy, um of Caitlin's most important standout missions. And so the second one is set in the early 90s during the Bosnian war. And this time, she cannot use opera as a cover, because obviously in a war zone, there's no opera. And so she has to. To go undercover as either a un volunteer or Red Cross, and this time, her sidekick is not the Clive Matthews. He has actually started a special squad, combat squad that's going in because, of course, we, none of us, were really involved with that war, right? But that's what he's doing. And so, believe it or not, her, her sidekick, so to speak, is a priest that very early, goes on and sees, you know, this absolute ethnic cleansing going on, you know, massacres and and he tries to get the Catholic Church to help, and they're like, no, no, we're not touching that. And so he goes AWOL. And had been friends in Vienna with the CIA during the first book. He goes to the CIA and says, This is what's going on. I saw it with my own eyes. I want to help. And so he becomes Caitlin's sidekick, which is a very interesting relationship. You know, Caitlin, the opera singer, kind of, kind of modern girl, you know, and then you know, the kind of staunch priest. But they find a way to work together, and they have to, because they have to save each other's lives a couple times. And this is my favorite book of the three. And so basically what happens is called Mission impromptu, and I hope to have that finished at the end of this month. And the reason we call it impromptu is because her chief tells her to just get the information and get out, but her and the priest find out that there is a camp of orphaned boys that they are planning to come massacre, and so they they they basically go rogue and don't follow orders and go try to help the boys. Yeah. And then the third book, she has actually moved back to New York, and she's thinking, well, she does retire from the CIA, and it's the summer of 2001 and what happened in September of 2001 911 and so they call her right back in she literally had been retired for about three months. Michael Hingson ** 52:35 Well, to my knowledge, I never met Caitlin, so I'm just saying Mm hmm, having been in the World Trade Center on September 11, but I don't think I met Caitlin anyway. Kay Sparling ** 52:43 Go ahead. No, she wasn't in the towers, but no, I was in New York. And yeah, so they called her back right away. And so the third one is going to be called Mission home front, because that's been her home for a very long time. She's been living in New York. Michael Hingson ** 53:01 Are there plans for Caitlin beyond these three books? I hope so. Kay Sparling ** 53:08 I think it would be fun for her to retire from the CIA and then move back to the Midwest. And, you know, it turned into a complete fiction. Of course, this is not true stuff, but, you know, like kind of a cozy mystery series, right, where things happen and people can't get anyone to really investigate it, so they come to Caitlin, and then maybe her ex boss, you know, the chief that's also retired, they kind of, you know, gang up and become pi type, you know, right? I'm thinking that might be a fun thing. Michael Hingson ** 53:46 Now, are mostly books two and three in the mission series. Are they also relatively non fiction? 53:53 Yes, okay, Michael Hingson ** 53:57 okay, cool, yes. Well, you know, it's, it's pretty fascinating to to hear all of this and to to see it, to hear about it from you, but to see it coming together, that is, that is really pretty cool to you know, to see you experiencing have the book, has mission thought been converted by any chance to audio? Is it available on Audible or Kay Sparling ** 54:21 anywhere it has not but it is in my plans. It's there's a little bit of choice I have to make do. I use my publisher and hire one of their readers you know to do it, someone you know, that's in equity, that type of thing. Or you know, my publicity, or people are also saying, well, because you're an actor, and, you know, all these accents, it might be nice for you to do to read your own book. Well, the problem is time, you know, just the time to do it, because I'm so busy promoting the book right now. And really. Right writing the second one that you know, I just don't know if I'm going to be able to pull that off, but I have my own records, recording studio in my voice studio downstairs, but it's just and I have all the equipment I have engineers. It's just a matter of me being able to take the time to practice and to get that done. So it's probably going to be, I'll just use their, one of their people, but yes, yeah, it's coming. It's coming. Well, it's, Michael Hingson ** 55:29 it's tough. I know when we published last year, live like a guide dog, and the publisher, we did it through a traditional publisher, they worked with dreamscape to create an audio version. And I actually auditioned remotely several authors and chose one. But it is hard to really find someone to read the book the way you want it read, because you know what it's like, and so there is merit to you taking the time to read it. But still, as you said, there are a lot of things going on, Kay Sparling ** 56:09 yeah, and I have read, you know, certain portions of the book, because some podcasts that I've been on asked me to do that, and I and I practiced and that, it went very well. And of course, when people hear that, they're like, Oh, you're the one that has to do this. You know Caitlin. You can speak her, you know her attitudes and all. And then you also know how to throw all those different accents out there, because there's going to be, like, several, there's Dutch, there's German, there's Scottish, high British and Austrian. I mean, yeah, yeah, Austrians speak different than Germans. Mm, hmm, Michael Hingson ** 56:53 yeah, it's it's a challenge, but it's still something worth considering, because you're going to bring a dimension to it that no one else really can because you wrote it and you really know what you want them to sound like, Yeah, but it's a it's a process. I and I appreciate that, but you've got lots going on, and you have to have an income. I know for me, we started live like a guide dog my latest book when the pandemic began, because I realized that although I had talked about getting out of the World Trade Center and doing so without exhibiting fear, didn't mean that it wasn't there, but I realized that I had learned to control fear, because I learned a lot that I was able to put to use on the Day of the emergency. And so the result of that was that, in fact, the mindset kicked in and I was able to function, but I never taught anyone how to do that. And so the intent of live like a guide dog was to be a way that people could learn how to control fear and not let fear overwhelm or, as I put it, blind them, but rather use fear as a very powerful tool to help you focus and do the things that you really need to do. But it's a choice. People have to learn that they can make that choice and they can control it, which is kind of what really brought the book to to mind. And the result was that we then, then did it. And so it came out last August as well. Kay Sparling ** 58:27 Oh, well, if you read my book, you'll see Caitlin developing the same skills you were just talking about. She has to overcome fear all the time, because she's never been in these situations before, and yet she has to survive, you know? Michael Hingson ** 58:44 Yeah, well, and the reality is that most of us take too many things for granted and don't really learn. But if you learn, for example, if there's an emergency, do you know where to go in the case of an emergency? Do you know how to evacuate, not by reading the signs? Do you know? And that's the difference, the people who know have a mindset that will help them be a lot more likely to be able to survive, because they know what all the options are, and if there's a way to get out, they know what they are, rather than relying on signs, which may or may not even be available to you if you're in a smoke filled environment, for example, yeah, Kay Sparling ** 59:22 yeah, you should know ahead of time. Yeah, you know, I know the state where I work. I I mostly work at home. I'm able to do that, but we do have to go in once a week, and we just changed floors. They've been doing a lot of remodeling, and that was the first thing, you know, the supervisor wanted us to do was walk through all the way for a tornado, fire, etc, and so we did that, you know, and that's smart, because then you're like, you say you're not trying to look at a chart as you're running or whatever, Michael Hingson ** 59:56 and you may need to do it more than once to make sure you really know it. I know for me. I spent a lot of time walking around the World Trade Center. In fact, I didn't even use my guide dog. I used a cane, because with a cane, I'll find things that the dog would just automatically go around or ignore, like kiosks and other things. But I want to know where all that stuff is, because I want to know what all the shops are down on the first floor. Well, now that that is the case anymore, but it was at the time there was a shopping mall and knowing where everything was, but also knowing where different offices were, knowing who was in which offices, and then knowing the really important things that most people don't know about, like where the Estee Lauder second store was on the 46th floor of tower two. You know, you got to have the important things for wives, and so I learned what that was. Well, it was, it was, those are important things, but you'll learn a lot, and it's real knowledge. Someone, a recent podcast episode that they were on, said something very interesting, and that is that we're always getting information, but information isn't knowing it. Knowledge is really internalizing the information and making it part of our psyche and really getting us to the point where we truly know it and can put it to use. And that is so true. It isn't just getting information. Well, that's great. I know that now, well, no, you don't necessarily know it now, until you internalize it, until you truly make it part of your knowledge. And I think that's something that a lot of people miss. Well, this has been a lot of fun. If people want to reach out to you, is there a way they can do that? Kay Sparling ** 1:01:40 Yeah, the best thing is my book website, K, Sparling books.com spelled and it would K, a, y, s, p, as in Paul, A, R, L, I N, G, B, O, O, K, s.com.com, okay, and you can email me through there. And all the media that I've been on is in the media section. The editorial reviews are there. There's another thing that my student heats up for me is the website. It's it's really developed. And so lots of information about the book and about me on on there. And one thing I want to mention is, just because of my background and all the all the people that you know, I know, a friend of mine is a composer, and he wrote a song, a theme song, because we do hope that someday we can sell this, you know, yeah, to for movie and, or, you know, Netflix, or something like that. And so he wrote a theme song and theme music. And I just think that's fun. And then I wanted my students saying, saying it. And then, you know, it's with a rock band, but it's, it's very James Bond, the kind of with a little opera, you know, involved too. But, you know, not a lot of authors can say that on their website, they have a theme song for their books. Michael Hingson ** 1:03:16 And where is Kay Sparling ** 1:03:18 it? It would be under, it's going to be about the author. And there's a nice one of my other students is a graphic artist. She She did a graphic a scene of Caitlin with her ball gown, and she's got her foot up on a stool, and she's putting her pistol in her thigh holster, in I think, you know, it's kind of like a cartoon, and it quotes Caitlin saying, I bet you I'm going to be the only bell at the ball with this accessory pistol. And then right underneath that, that song, you can click it and hear it. We also are on YouTube mission. Thought does have its own YouTube channel, so you can find it there as well. Michael Hingson ** 1:04:05 So well, I want to thank you for being here and for telling us all the stories and especially about mission. I hope people will get it and read it, and I look forward to it coming out in audio at some point. Yes, I'll be lazy and wait for that, I I like to to get books with human readers. You know, I can get the print book and I can play it with a synthetic voice, but I, I really prefer human voices. And I know a lot of people who do AI has not progressed to the point where it really can pull that off. Kay Sparling ** 1:04:38 Well, no, it cannot. Yeah, I totally agree with you there. Michael Hingson ** 1:04:42 So Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching us today. This has been fun. And as some of you know, if you listen to many of these podcasts, we have a rule on the podcast, you can't come on unless you're going to have fun. So we did have fun. We. You have fun? Yeah. See, there you go. I was gonna ask if you had fun. Of course, yes. So thank you all for listening. Love to hear from you. Love to hear what your thoughts are about today's episode. Feel free to email me at Michael H, i@accessibe.com that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, also, please give us a five star rating. We appreciate it. K, I'll appreciate it. And when this goes up, when you hear it, we really value those ratings and reviews very highly. If you know anyone else who ought to be a guest and KU as well, love to hear from you. Please introduce us. Kay, you'll have to introduce us to Caitlin, but But seriously, we always are looking for more guests. So if anyone knows of anyone who ought to come on and tell a story, we'd love to hear from you. But again, Kay, I want to thank you one last time. This has been great, and we really appreciate you being here. Kay Sparling ** 1:05:59 Well, thank you for having me. Michael Hingson ** 1:06:04 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

united states god tv love music american new york university netflix canada children new york city ai europe mission talk americans british french germany sound canadian new york times european italy german russian italian mom theater illinois wisconsin hospitals ptsd world war ii iran broadway nazis sweden blind kansas catholic midwest alzheimer's disease kansas city dutch ambassadors cia thunder james bond scottish stitcher austria ebooks audible cold war unstoppable prime minister catholic church bureau blue sky st louis mozart budapest austrian mm rutgers university red cross world trade center bosnia ussr stayed ku alps berlin wall gee verdi awol american red cross slavic east germany marias puccini bosnian metropolitan opera national federation estee lauder tosca east german western european michael h east berlin austrians bme vocal performance exxon mobile foch chief vision officer mother superior federal express scripps college michael hingson catholic social services sparling vienna state opera accessibe american humane association gretl thunder dog litsy hero dog awards umkc conservatory

Rekordgewinne bei Dax-Konzernen trotz Rezession in Deutschland – wie passt das zusammen?

zusammen trotz wirtschaft passt rezession michael h deutschland wie dax konzerne dax konzernen rekordgewinne

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 19, 2025 28:25

Während der deutschen Wirtschaft das dritte Rezessionsjahr in Folge droht, dürften 15 der 40 Dax-Konzerne in diesem Jahr so viel verdienen wie noch nie. Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther sprechen über die Gründe.

Episode 369 – Unstoppable Marketing Strategist with Aaron Wolpoff

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 9, 2025 64:03

Our guest this time is Aaron Wolpoff who has spent his professional career as a marketing strategist and consultant to help companies develop strategic brands and enhance their audience growth. He owns the marketing firm, Double Zebra. He tells us about the name and how his company has helped a number of large and small companies grow and better serve their clients. Aaron grew up in the San Diego area. He describes himself as a curious person and he says he always has been such. He loves to ask questions. He says as a child he was somewhat quiet, but always wanted to know more. He received his Bachelor's degree in marketing from the University of California at San Diego. After working for a firm for some four and a half years he and his wife moved up to the bay area in Northern California where attended San Francisco State University and obtained a Master's degree in Business. In addition to his day job functioning as a business advisor and strategist Aaron also hosts a podcast entitled, We Fixed it, You're Welcome. I had the honor to appear on his podcast to discuss Uber and some of its accessibility issues especially concerning access by blind persons who use guide dogs to Uber's fleet. His podcast is quite fascinating and one I hope you will follow. Aaron provides us in this episode many business insights. We talk about a number of challenges and successes marketing has brought to the business arena. I hope you like what Aaron offers. About the Guest: Aaron Wolpoff is a seasoned marketing strategist and communications consultant with a track record of positioning companies, products, and thought leadership for maximum impact. Throughout his career, Aaron has been somewhat of a trendspotter, getting involved in early initiatives around online banking, SaaS, EVs, IoT, and now AI, His ability to bridge complex industry dynamics and technology-driven solutions underscores his role as a forward-thinking consultant, podcaster, and business advisor, committed to enhancing organizational effectiveness and fostering strategic growth. As the driving force behind the Double Zebra marketing company, Aaron excels in identifying untapped marketing assets, refining brand narratives, and orchestrating strategic pivots from paid advertising to organic audience growth. His insights have guided notable campaigns for consumer brands, technology firms, and professional service providers, always with a keen eye for differentiating messages that resonate deeply with target audiences. In addition to his strategic marketing expertise, Aaron hosts the Top 20 business management podcast, We Fixed It, You're Welcome, known for its sharp, humorous analysis of major corporate challenges and missteps. Each episode brings listeners inside complex business scenarios, unfolding like real-time case studies where Aaron and his panel of experts dissect high-profile decisions, offering insightful and actionable solutions. His ability to distill complex business issues into relatable, engaging discussions has garnered widespread acclaim and a dedicated following among executives and decision-makers. Ways to connect with Aaron: Marketing company: https://doublezebra.com Podcast: https://wefixeditpod.com LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/marketingaaron About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi there, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to chat with Aaron Wolpoff, who is a marketing strategist and expert in a lot of different ways. I've read his bio, which you can find in the show notes. It seems to me that he is every bit as much of an expert is his bio says he is, but we're going to find out over the next hour or so for sure. We'll we'll not pick on him too much, but, but nevertheless, it's fun to be here. Aaron, so I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. I'm glad you're here, and we're glad that we get a chance to do Aaron Wolpoff, ** 01:58 this. Thanks, Michael, thanks for having me. You're gonna grill me for an hour, huh? Michael Hingson ** 02:04 Oh, sure. Why not? You're used to it. You're a marketing expert. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 02:08 That's what we do. Yeah, we're always, uh, scrutiny for one thing or another. Michael Hingson ** 02:13 I remember, I think it was back in was it 82 or 1982 or 1984 when they had the big Tylenol incident. You remember that? You know about Aaron Wolpoff, ** 02:25 that? I do? Yeah, there's a Netflix documentary happening right now. Is there? Well, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 02:31 a bottle of Tylenol was, for those who don't know, contaminated and someone died from it. But the manufacturer of Tylenol, the CEO the next day, just got right out in front of it and said what they were going to do about removing all Tylenol from the shelves until it could be they could all be examined and so on. Just did a number of things. It was a wonderful case, it seemed to me, for how to deal with a crisis when it came up. And I find that all too many companies and organizations don't necessarily know how to do that. Do they now? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 03:09 And a lot of times they operate in crisis mode. That's the default. And no one likes to be around that, you know. So that's, I guess, step one is dealing even you know, deal with a crisis when it comes up, and make sure that your your day to day is not crisis fire as much as possible, Michael Hingson ** 03:26 but know how to deal with a crisis, which is kind of the issue, and that's, that's what business continuity, of course, is, is really all about. I spoke at the Business Continuity Institute hybrid conference in London last October, and as one of the people who asked me to come and speak, explained, business continuity, people are the what if people that are always looking at, how do we deal with any kind of an emergency that comes up in an organization, knowing full well that nobody's really going to listen to them until there's really an emergency, and then, of course, they're indispensable, but The rest of the time they're not for Aaron Wolpoff, ** 04:02 sure. Yeah, it's definitely that, you know, good. You bring up a good point about knowing how to deal with a crisis, because it will, it, will you run a business for long enough you have a company, no matter how big, eventually something bad is going to happen, and it's Tylenol. Was, is pre internet or, you know, we oh, yeah, good while ago they had time to formulate a response and craft it and and do a well presented, you know, public reassurance nowadays it's you'd have five seconds before you have to get something out there. Michael Hingson ** 04:35 Well, even so, the CEO did it within, like, a day or so, just immediately came out and said what, what was initially going to be done. Of course, there was a whole lot more to it, but still, he got right out in front of it and dealt with it in a calm way, which I think is really important for businesses to do, and and I do find that so many don't and they they deal with so many different kinds of stress. Horrible things in the world, and they create more than they really should about fear anyway, Aaron Wolpoff, ** 05:07 yeah, for sure, and now I think that Tylenol wasn't ultimately responsible. I haven't watched to the end, but if I remember correctly, but sometimes these crisis, crises that companies find themselves embroiled in, are self perpetuated? Yeah? Michael Hingson ** 05:23 Well, Tylenol wasn't responsible. Somebody did it. Somebody put what, cyanide or something in into a Tylenol bottle. So they weren't responsible, but they sure dealt with it, which is the important thing. And you know, they're, they're still with us. Yeah? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 05:38 No, they dealt with it. Well, their sales are great, everyday household product. No one can dispute it. But what I say is, with the with the instantaneousness of reach to your to your public, and to you know, consumers and public at large, a lot of crises are, can be self perpetuated, like you tweet the wrong thing, or is it called a tweet anymore? I don't know, but you know, you post something a little bit a little bit out of step with what people are think about you or thinking in general, and and now, all of a sudden, you're in the middle of something that you didn't want to be in the middle of, as a company well, Michael Hingson ** 06:15 and I also noticed that, like the media will, so often they hear something, they report it, and they haven't necessarily checked to see the facts behind it, only to find out within an hour or two that what they reported was wrong. And they helped to sometimes promote the fear and promote the uncertainty, rather than waiting a little bit until they get all the information reasonably correct. And of course, part of the problem is they say, well, but everybody else is going to report it. So each station says everybody else is going to report it, so we have to keep up. Well, I'm not so sure about that all the time. Oh, that's very true, too, Michael, especially with, you know, off brand media outlets I'll spend with AI like, I'll be halfway through an article now, and I'll see something that's extremely generated and and I'll realize I've just wasted a whole bunch of time on a, you know, on a fake article, yeah, yeah, yeah, way, way too much. But even the mainstream media will report things very quickly to get it out there, but they don't necessarily have all the data, right. And I understand you can't wait for days to deal with things, but you should wait at least a little bit to make sure you've got data enough to report in a cogent way. And it just doesn't always happen. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 07:33 Yeah, well, I don't know who the watch keepers of that are. I'm not a conspiracy theorist in that way by any means? Michael Hingson ** 07:41 No, no, it isn't a conspiracy. But yeah, Aaron Wolpoff, ** 07:44 yeah, no, no, I know, but it's again. I think it goes back to that tight the shortness of the cycle, like again. Tylenol waited a day to respond back in the day, which is great. But now, would you have you know, if Tylenol didn't say Michael Hingson ** 07:59 anything for a day. If they were faced with a similar situation, people would vilify them and say, Well, wait, you waited a day to tell us something we wanted it in the first 30 seconds, yeah, oh, yeah. And that makes it more difficult, but I would hope that Tylenol would say, yeah. We waited a day because we were getting our facts together. 30 seconds is great in the media, but that doesn't work for reality, and in most cases, it doesn't. But yeah, I know what you're saying, Aaron Wolpoff, ** 08:30 Yeah, but the appetite in the 24 hour news cycle, if people are hungry for new more information, so it does push news outlets, media outlets into let's respond as quick as possible and figure out the facts along the way. Yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson ** 08:46 Well, for fun, why don't you tell us about sort of the early era and growing up, and how you got to doing the sorts of things that you're doing now. Well, I grew up in San Diego, California. I best weather in the country. I don't care what anyone says, Yeah, Aaron Wolpoff, ** 09:03 you can't really beat it. No, I don't think anyone's gonna debate you on it. They call it the sunshine tax, because things cost a lot out here, but they do, you know, he grew up here, you put up with it. But yeah, so I grew up, grew up San Diego, college, San Diego. Life in San Diego, I've been elsewhere. I've traveled. I've seen some of the world. I like it. I've always wanted to come back, but I grew up really curious. I read a lot, I asked a lot of questions. And I also wanted, wanting to know, well, I want to know. Well, I wanted to know a lot of things about a lot of things, and I also was really scared. Is the wrong word, but I looked up to adults when I was a kid, and I didn't want to be put in a position where I was expected to know something that I didn't know. So it led to times where I'd pretend like I need you. Know, do you know? You know what this is, right? And I'd pretend like I knew, and early career, career even, and then I get called out on something, and it just was like a gut punch, like, but I'm supposed to know that, you know, Michael Hingson ** 10:13 what did your parents think of you being so curious as you were growing up? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 10:17 They they liked it, but I was quiet, okay? Quiet, quiet, quietly, confident and curious. It's just an interesting, I guess, an interesting mix. Yeah, but no, they Oh, they indulged it. I, you know, they answered my questions. They like I said, I read a lot, so frequent trips to the library to read a lot about a lot of things, but I think, you know, professionally, you take something that's kind of a grab bag, and what do I do with all these different interests? And when I started college undeclared, I realized, you know, communications, marketing, you kind of can make a discipline out of a bunch of interests, and call it something professional. Where did you go to college? I went to UCSD. UCSD, here in San Diego, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 11:12 well, I was just up the road from you at UC Irvine. So here two good campuses, Aaron Wolpoff, ** 11:18 they are, they are and UCSD. I was back recently. It's like a it's like a city. Now, every time we go back, we see these, these kids. They're babies. They get they get food every you know, they have, like, a food nice food court. There's parking, an abundance of parking, there's theaters, there's all the things we didn't have. Of course, we had some of it, but they just have, like, what if we had one of something or 50 parking spaces, they've got 5000 you know. And if we had, you know, one one food option, they got 35 Yeah, they don't know how good they have it. Michael Hingson ** 11:53 When I was at UC urban, I think we had 3200 undergraduates. It wasn't huge. It was in that area. Now, I think there's 31,000 or 32,000 undergrads. Oh, wow. And as one of my former physics professors joked, he's retired, but I got to meet him. I was there, and last year I was inducted as an alumni member of Phi, beta, kappa. And so we were talking, and he said, You know what UCI really stands for, don't you? Well, I didn't, I said, What? And he said, under construction indefinitely. And there's, they're always building, sure, and that's that started when I was there, but, but they are always building. And it's just an amazing place today, with so many students and graduate students, undergrads and faculty, and it's, it's an amazing place. I think I'd have a little bit more of a challenge of learning where everything is, although I could do it, if I had to go back, I could do it. Yeah, UCI is nice. But I think you could say, you could say that about any of the UCs are constantly under, under development. And, you know, that's the old one. That's the old area. And I'm like, oh, that's I went to school in the old area. I know the old area. I remember Central Park. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So you ended up majoring in Marketing and Communications, Aaron Wolpoff, ** 13:15 yeah. So I undergrad in communications. They have a really nice business school now that they did not have at the time. So I predated that, but I probably would have ended up there. I got out with a very, not knocking the school. It's a great, wonderful school. I got out with a very theory, theoretical based degree. So I knew a lot about communications from a theory based perspective. I knew about brain cognition. I took maybe one quarter of practical use it professionally. It was like a video, like a video production course, so I I learned hands on, 111, quarter out of my entire academic career. But a lot of it was learning. The learning not necessarily applied, but just a lot of theory. And I started school at 17, and I got out just shortly after my 21st birthday, so I don't know what my hurry was, but, but there I was with a lot of theory, some some internships, but not a ton of professional experience. And, you know, trying to figure it out in the work world at that point. Did you get a graduate degree or just undergrad? I did. I went back. So I did it for almost five years in in financial marketing, and then, and I wear a suit and tie to work every day, which I don't think anyone does anymore. And I'm suddenly like, like, I'm from the 30s. I'm not that old, but, but no, seriously, we, you know, to work at the at the headquarters of a international credit union. Of course, I wear a suit, no after four and a half. Years there, I went back to graduate school up in the bay the Bay Area, Bay Area, and that's when I got my masters in in marketing. Oh, where'd you go in the Bay Area? San Francisco, state. Okay, okay, yeah, really nice school. It's got one of the biggest International MBA programs in the country, I think. And got to live in that city for a couple years. Michael Hingson ** 15:24 We lived in Novato, so North Bay, for 12 years, from 2002 to the end of June 2014 Yeah, I like that area. That's, that's the, oh, the weather isn't San Diego's. That area is still a really nice area to live as well. Again, it is pretty expensive, but still it Aaron Wolpoff, ** 15:44 is, yeah, I it's not San Diego weather, a beautiful day. There is like nothing else. But when we first got there, I said, I want to live by the beach. That's what I know. And we got out to the beach, which is like at the end of the outer sunset, and it's in the 40s streets, and it feels like the end of the universe. It just, it just like, feels apocalyptic. And I said, I don't want to live by the beach anymore, but, but no, it was. It was a great, great learning experience, getting an MBA. I always say it's kind of like a backpack or a toolkit you walk around with, because it is all that's all application. You know, everything that I learned about theory put into practice, you got to put into practice. And so I was, I was really glad that I that I got to do that. And like I said, Live, live in, live in the Bay. For a couple years, I'd always wanted Michael Hingson ** 16:36 to, yeah, well, that's a nice area to live. If you got to live somewhere that is one of the nicer places. So glad you got that opportunity. And having done it, as I said for 12 years, I appreciate it too. And yeah, so much to offer there. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 16:51 The only problem I had was it was in between the two.com bubbles. So literally, nothing was happening. The good side was that the apartment I was living in went for something like $5,500 before I got there, and then the draw everything dropped, you know, the bottom dropped out, and I was able to squeak by and afford living in the city. But, you know, you go for look, seeking your fortune. And there's, there's, I had just missed it. And then I left, and then it just came back. So I was, I was there during a lull. So you're the one, huh? Okay, I didn't do it, just the way Miami worked out. Did you then go back to San Diego? I did, yeah. So I've met my wife here. We moved up to the bay together, and when we were debating, when I graduated, we were thinking, do we want to drive, you know, an hour and a half Silicon Valley or someone, you know, somewhere further out just to stay in the area? Or do we want to go back to where we where we know and like, and start a life there and we, you know, send, like you said at the beginning, San Diego is not a bad place to be. So as it was never a fallback, but as a place to, you know, come back home to, yeah, I welcomed it. Michael Hingson ** 18:08 And so what did you do when you came back to San Diego? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 18:12 So I have my best friend from childhood was starting as a photography company still does, and it was starting like a sister company, as an agency to serve the photography company, which was growing really fast, and then also, like picking up clients and building a book out of so he said, you know you're, I see you're applying for jobs, and I know that you're, you know, you're getting some offers and things, but just say no To all of them and come work with me and and at the time it was, it was running out of a was like a loft of an apartment, but it, you know, it grew to us, a small staff, and then a bigger staff, and spun off on its own. And so that's, that's what I did right out of, right out of grad school. I said no to a few things, and said there's a lot, lot worse fates than you know, spending your work day with your best friend and and growing a company out and so what exactly did you do for them? So it was like, we'll call it a boutique creative agency. It was around the time of I'm making myself sound so old. See, so there was flash, flash technology, like web banners were made with Flash. It had moved to be flash, Adobe, Flash, yeah. So companies were making these web banners, and what you call interactive we got a proficiency of making full website experiences with Flash, which not a lot of companies were doing. So because of that, it led to some really interesting opportunities and clients and being able to take on a capability, a proficiency that you know for a time. Uh was, was uh as a differentiator, say, you know, you could have a web banner and an old website, or you could have a flash, interactive website where you take your users on an experience with music and all the things that seem so dated now, Michael Hingson ** 20:14 well, and of course, unfortunately, a lot of that content wasn't very accessible, so some of us didn't really get access to a lot of it, and I don't remember whether Adobe really worked to make flash all that accessible. They dealt with other things, but I'm not sure that flash ever really was. Yeah, I'm with you on that. I really, I don't think so. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 20:38 What we would wind up doing is making parallel websites, but, but then mobile became a thing, and then you'd make a third version of a website, and it just got tedious. And really it's when the iPhone came out. It just it flash got stopped in its tracks, like it was like a week, and then action script, which is the language that it runs on, and all the all the capabilities and proficiencies, just there was no use for it anymore. Michael Hingson ** 21:07 Well, and and the iPhone came out, as you said, and one of the things that happened fairly early on was that, because they were going to be sued, Apple agreed to make the I devices accessible, and they did something that hadn't really been done up to that time. They set the trend for it. They built accessibility into the operating systems, and they built the ability to have accessibility into the operating systems. The one thing that I wish that Apple would do even a little bit more of than they do, than they do today, although it's better than it used to be, is I wish they would mandate, or require people who are going to put apps in the App Store, for example, to make sure that the apps are accessible. They have guidelines. They have all sorts of information about how to do it, but they don't really require it, and so you can still get inaccessible apps, which is unfortunate, Aaron Wolpoff, ** 22:09 that is Yeah, and like you said, with Flash, an entire you know, ecosystem had limited to no accessibility, so Michael Hingson ** 22:16 and making additional on another website, Yeah, a lot of places did that, but they weren't totally equal, because they would make enough of the website, well, they would make the website have enough content to be able to do things, but they didn't have everything that they had on the graphical or flash website, and so It was definitely there, but it wasn't really, truly equal, which is unfortunate, and so now it's a lot better. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 22:46 Yeah, it is no and I hate to say it, but if it came down to limited time, limited budget, limited everything you want to make something that is usable and efficient, but no, I mean, I can't speak for all developers, but no, it would be hard. You'd be hard pressed to create a an equally parallel experience with full accessibility at the time. Michael Hingson ** 23:16 Yeah, yeah, you would. And it is a lot better. And there's, there's still stuff that needs to be done, but I think over time, AI is going to help some of that. And it is already made. It isn't perfect yet, but even some graphics and so on can be described by AI. And we're seeing things improve over, over, kind of what they were. So we're making progress, which is good, Aaron Wolpoff, ** 23:44 yeah, no, I'm really happy about that. And with with AI and AI can go through and parse your code and build in all you know, everything that that needs to happen, there's a lot less excuse for for not making something as accessible as it can Michael Hingson ** 23:59 be, yeah, but people still ignore it to a large degree. Still, only about 3% of all websites really have taken the time to put some level of accessibility into them. So there's still a lot to be done, and it's just not that magical or that hard, but it's mostly, I think, education. People don't know, they don't know that it can be done. They don't think about it being done, or they don't do it initially, and so then it becomes a lot more expensive to do later on, because you got to go back and redo Aaron Wolpoff, ** 24:28 it, all right, yeah, anything, anytime you have to do something, something retroactive or rebuild, you're, yeah, you're starting from not a great place. Michael Hingson ** 24:37 So how long did you work with your friend? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 24:42 A really long time, because I did the studio, and then I wound up keeping that alive. But going over to the photography side, the company really grew. Had a team of staff photographers, had a team of, like a network of photographers, and. And was doing quite, quite a lot, an abundance of events every year, weddings and corporate and all types of things. So all in, I was with the company till, gosh, I want to say, like, 2014 or so. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 25:21 And then what did you go off and do? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 25:25 So then I worked for an agency, so I got started with creative and, well, rewinding, I got started with financial marketing, with the suit and tie. But then I went into creative, and I've tried pretty much every aspect of marketing I hadn't done marketing automation and email sequences and CRMs and outreach and those types of things. So that was the agency I worked for that was their specialization, which I like, to a degree, but it's, it's not my, not my home base. Yeah, there's, there's people that love and breathe automation. I like having interjecting some, you know, some type of personal aspect into the what you're putting out there. And I have to wrestle with that as ai, ai keeps growing in prominence, like, Where's the place for the human, creative? But I did that for a little while, and then I've been on my own for the past six or seven years. Michael Hingson ** 26:26 So what is it you do today? Exactly? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 26:30 So I'm, we'll call it a fractional CMO, or a fractional marketing advisor. So I come in and help companies grow their their marketing and figure themselves out. I've gone I work with large companies. I've kind of gone back to early stage startups and and tech companies. I just find that they're doing really more, a lot more interesting things right now with the market the way it is. They're taking more chances and and they're they're moving faster. I like to move pretty quick, so that's where my head's at. And I'm doing more. We'll call em like CO entrepreneurial ventures with my clients, as opposed to just a pure agency service model, which is interesting. And and I got my own podcast. There you go. Yeah. What's your podcast called? Not to keep you busy, it's called, we fixed it. You're welcome. There you Michael Hingson ** 27:25 go. And it seems to me, if my memory hasn't failed me, even though I don't take one of those memory or brain supplements, we were on it not too long ago, talking about Uber, which was fun. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 27:39 We had you on there. I don't know which episode will drop first, this one or or the one you were on, but we sure enjoyed having you on there. Michael Hingson ** 27:46 Well, it was fun. Well, we'll have to do more of it, and I think it'd be fun to but so you own your own business. Then today, Aaron Wolpoff, ** 27:53 I do, yeah, it's called Double zebra. Michael Hingson ** 27:56 Now, how did you come up with that name? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 27:59 It's two basic elements, so basic, black and white, something unremarkable, but if you can take it and multiply it or repeat it, then you're onto something interesting. Michael Hingson ** 28:13 Lots of stripes. Yeah, lots of stripes. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 28:17 And it's always fun when I talk to someone in the UK or Australia, or then they say zebra or zebra, right? I get to hear the way they say it. It's that's fun. Occasionally I get double double zero. People will miss misname it and double zero. That's his Michael Hingson ** 28:34 company's that. But has anybody called it double Zed yet? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 28:39 No, that's a new one. Michael Hingson ** 28:41 Yeah? Well, you never know. Maybe we've given somebody the idea now. Yeah, yeah. Well, so I'm I'm curious. You obviously do a lot to analyze and help people in critique in corporate mishaps. Have you ever seen a particular business mistake that you really admire and just really love, its audacity, Aaron Wolpoff, ** 29:07 where it came out wrong, but I liked it anyway, yeah, oh, man, Michael Hingson ** 29:13 let's see, or one maybe, where they learned from their mistake and fixed it. But still, yeah, sure. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 29:23 Yeah, that's a good one. I like, I like bold moves, even if they're wrong, as long as they don't, you know, they're not harmful to people I don't know. Let's go. I'm I'm making myself old. Let's go back to Crystal crystal. Pepsi, there you go for that. But that was just such a fun idea at the time. You know, we're the new generation and, and this is the 90s, and everything's new now, and we're going to take the color out of out of soda, I know we're and we're going to take it and just make it what you know, but a little unfamiliar, right? Right? It's Crystal Pepsi, and the ads were cool, and it was just very of the moment. Now, that moment didn't last very long, no, and the public didn't, didn't hold on to it very long. But there's, you know, it was, it let you question, and I in a good way, what you thought about what is even a Pepsi. And it worked. It was they brought it back, like for a very short time, five, I want to say five or six years ago, just because people had a nostalgia for it. But yeah, big, big, bold, we're confident this is the new everyone's going to be talking about this for a long time, and we're going to put a huge budget behind it, Crystal Pepsi. And it it didn't, but yeah, I liked it. Michael Hingson ** 30:45 So why is that that is clearly somebody had to put a lot of effort into the concept, and must have gotten some sort of message that it would be very successful, but then it wasn't, Aaron Wolpoff, ** 31:00 yeah, yeah. For something like that, you have to get buy in at so many levels. You know, you have an agency saying, this is the right thing to do. You have CD, your leadership saying, No, I don't know. Let's pull back. Whenever an agency gets away with something and and spends a bunch of client money and it's just audacious, and I can't believe they did it. I know how many levels of buy in they had to get, yeah, to say, Trust me. Trust me. And a lot of times it works, you know, if they do something that just no one else had had thought of or wasn't willing to do, and then you see that they got through all those levels of bureaucracy and they were able to pull it off. Michael Hingson ** 31:39 When it works. I love it. When it doesn't work. I love it, you know, just, just the fact that they did it, yeah, you got to admire that. Gotta admire it. They pulled it off, yeah. My favorite is still ranch flavored Fritos. They disappeared, and I've never understood why I love ranch flavored Fritos. And we had them in New Jersey and so on. And then we got, I think, out to California. But by that time, they had started to fade away, and I still have never understood why. Since people love ranch food so Aaron Wolpoff, ** 32:06 much, that's a good one. I don't know that. I know those because it does, it does that one actually fill a market need. If there's Doritos, there's, you know, the ranch, I don't know if they were, they different. Michael Hingson ** 32:17 They were Fritos, but they they did have ranch you know they were, they were ranch flavored, and I thought they were great. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that one didn't hit because they have, I think they have chili flavor. They have regular. Do they have anything else honey barbecue? I don't know. I don't know, but I do still like regular, but I love ranch flavored the best. Now, I heard last week that Honey Nut Cheerios are going away. General Mills is getting rid of honey nut cheerios. No, is that real? That's what I heard on the news. Okay, I believe you, but I'll look it up anyway. Well, it's interesting. I don't know why, after so many years, they would but there have been other examples of cereals and so on that were around for a while and left and, well, Captain Crunch was Captain Crunch was one, and I'm not sure if lucky charms are still around. And then there was one called twinkles. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 33:13 And I know all those except twinkles, but I would if you asked me, I would say, Honey Nut Cheerios. There's I would say their sales are better than Cheerios, or at least I would think so, yeah, at least a good portfolio company. Well, who knows, who knows, but I do know that Gen Z and millennials eat cereal a lot less than us older folks, because it takes work to put milk and cereal into a bowl, and it's not pre made, yeah. So maybe it's got to do with, you know, changing eating habits and consumer preferences Michael Hingson ** 33:48 must be Yeah, and they're not enough of us, older, more experienced people to to counteract that. But you know, well, we'll see Yeah, as long as they don't get rid of the formula because it may come back. Yeah, well, now Aaron Wolpoff, ** 34:03 Yeah, exactly between nostalgia and reboots and remakes and nothing's gone forever, everything comes back eventually. Michael Hingson ** 34:10 Yeah, it does in all the work that you've done. Have you ever had to completely rethink and remake your approach and do something different? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 34:24 Yeah, well, there's been times where I've been on uncharted territory. I worked with an EV company before EVs were a thing, and it was going, actually going head to head with with Tesla. But the thing there's they keep trying to bring it back and crowd sourcing it and all that stuff. It's, but at the time, it was like, I said it was like, which is gonna make it first this company, or Tesla, but, but this one looks like a, it looks, it feels like a spaceship. It's got, like space. It's a, it's, it's really. Be really unique. So the one that that is more like a family car one out probably rightly so. But there was no consumer understanding of not, let alone our preference, like there is now for an EV and what do I do? I have to plug it in somewhere and and all those things. So I had to rethink, you know what? There's no playbook for that yet. I guess I have to kind of work on it. And they were only in prototyping at the point where we came in and had to launch this, you know, teaser and teaser campaign for it, and build up awareness and demand for this thing that existed on a computer at the time. Michael Hingson ** 35:43 What? Why is Tesla so successful? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 35:48 Because they spent a bunch of money. Okay, that helps? Yeah, they were playing the long game. They could outspend competitors. They've got the unique distribution model. And they kind of like, I said, retrained consumers into how you buy a car, why you buy a car, and, and I think politics aside, people love their people love their teslas. You don't. My understanding is you don't have to do a whole lot once you buy it. And, and they they, like I said, they had the money to throw at it, that they could wait, wait it out and wait out that when you do anything with retraining consumers or behavior change or telling them you know, your old car is bad, your new this new one's good, that's the most. We'll call it costly and and difficult forms of marketing is retraining behavior. But they, they had the money to write it out and and their products great, you know, again, I'm not a Tesla enthusiast, but it's, it looks good. People love it. I you know, they run great from everything that I know, but so did a lot of other companies. So I think they just had the confidence in what they were doing to throw money at it and wait, be patient and well, Michael Hingson ** 37:19 they're around there again the the Tesla is another example of not nearly as accessible as it should be and and I recognize that I'm not going to be the primary driver of a Tesla today, although I have driven a Tesla down Interstate 15, about 15 miles the driver was in the car, but, but I did it for about 15 miles going down I 15 and fully appreciate what autonomous vehicles will be able to do. We're way too much still on the cusp, and I think that people who just poo poo them are missing it. But I also know we're not there yet, but the day is going to come when there's going to be a lot more reliability, a lot less potential for accidents. But the thing that I find, like with the Tesla from a passenger standpoint, is I can't do any of the things that a that a sighted passenger can do. I can't unless it's changed in the last couple of years. I can't manipulate the radio. I can't do the other things that that that passengers might do in the Tesla, and I should be able to do that, and of all the vehicles where they ought to have access and could, the Tesla would be one, and they could do it even still using touch screens. I mean, the iPhone, for example, is all touch screen. But Apple was very creative about creating a mechanism to allow a person to not need to look at the screen using VoiceOver, the screen reader on the iPhone, but having a new set of gestures that were created that work with VoiceOver so that I could interact with that screen just as well as you can. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 38:59 That's interesting that you say that, you know, Apple was working on a car for a while, and I don't know to a fact, but I bet they were thinking through accessibility and building that into every turn, or at least planning to, Michael Hingson ** 39:13 oh, I'm sure they were. And the reality is, it isn't again. It isn't that magical to do. It would be simple for the Teslas and and other vehicles to do it. But, you know, we're we're not there mentally. And that's of course, the whole issue is that we just societally don't tend to really look at accessibility like we should. My view of of, say, the apple the iPhone, still is that they could be marketing the screen reader software that I use, which is built into the system already. They could, they could do some things to mark market that a whole lot more than they already do for sighted people. Your iPhone rings, um. You have to tap it a lot of times to be able to answer it. Why can't they create a mode when you're in a vehicle where a lot more of that is verbally, spoken and handled through voice output from the phone and voice input from you, without ever having to look at or interact with the screen. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 40:19 I bet you're right, yeah, it's just another app at that point Michael Hingson ** 40:22 well, and it's what I do. I mean, it's the way I operate with it. So I just think that they could, they could be more creative. There's so many examples of things that begin in one way and alter themselves or become altered. The typewriter, for example, was originally developed for a blind Countess to be able to communicate with her lover without her husband finding out her husband wasn't very attentive to her anyway. But the point is that the, I think the lover, created the this device where she could actually sit down and type a letter and seal it and give it to a maid or someone to give to, to her, her friend. And that's how the typewriter other other people had created, some examples, but the typewriter from her was probably the thing that most led to what we have today. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 41:17 Oh, I didn't know that. But let me Michael, let me ask you. So I was in LA not too long ago, and they have, you know, driverless vehicles are not the form yet, but they we, I saw them around the city. What do you think about driverless vehicles in terms of accessibility or otherwise? Michael Hingson ** 41:32 Well, again, so, so the most basic challenge that, fortunately, they haven't really pushed which is great, is okay, you're driving along in an autonomous vehicle and you lose connection, or whatever. How are you going to be able to pull it off to the side of the road? Now, some people have talked about saying that there, there has to be a law that only sighted people could well the sighted people a sighted person has to be in the vehicle. The reality is, the technology has already been developed to allow a blind person to get behind the wheel of a car and have enough information to be able to drive that vehicle just as well, or nearly as well, as a sighted person. But I think for this, from the standpoint of autonomousness, I'm all for it. I think we're going to continue to see it. It's going to continue to get better. It is getting better daily. So I haven't ridden in a fully autonomous vehicle, but I do believe that that those vehicles need to make sure, or the manufacturers need to make sure that they really do put accessibility into it. I should be able to give the vehicle all the instructions and get all the information that any sighted person would get from the vehicle, and the technology absolutely exists to do that today. So I think we will continue to see that, and I think it will get better all the way around. I don't know whether, well, I think they that actually there have been examples of blind people who've gotten into an autonomous vehicle where there wasn't a sighted person, and they've been able to function with it pretty well. So I don't see why it should be a problem at all, and it's only going to get Aaron Wolpoff, ** 43:22 better. Yeah, for sure. And I keep thinking, you know, accessibility would be a prior priority in autonomous vehicles, but I keep learning from you, you know you were on our show and and our discussions, that the priorities are not always in line and not always where they necessarily should Michael Hingson ** 43:39 be. Well. And again, there are reasons for it, and while I might not like it, I understand it, and that is, a lot of it is education, and a lot of it is is awareness. Most schools that teach people how to code to develop websites don't spend a lot of time dealing with accessibility, even though putting all the codes in and creating accessible websites is not a magically difficult thing to do, but it's an awareness issue. And so yeah, we're just going to have to continue to fight the fight and work toward getting people to be more aware of why it's necessary. And in reality, I do believe that there is a lot of truth to this fact that making things more accessible for me will help other people as well, because by having not well, voice input, certainly in a vehicle, but voice output and so on, and a way for me to accessibly, be able to input information into an autonomous vehicle to take to have it take me where I want to go, is only going to help everyone else as well. A lot of things that I need would benefit sighted people so well, so much. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 44:56 Yeah, you're exactly right. Yeah, AI assisted. And voice input and all those things, they are universally loved and accepted now, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 45:07 it's getting better. The unemployment rate is still very high among, for example, employable blind people, because all too many people still think blind people can't work, even though they can. So it's all based on prejudice rather than reality, and we're, we're, we're just going to have to continue to work to try to deal with the issues. I wrote an article a couple of years ago. One of the things where we're constantly identified in the world is we're blind or visually impaired. And the problem with visually impaired is visually we're not different simply because we don't see and impaired, we are not we're getting people slowly to switch to blind and low vision, deaf people and hard of hearing people did that years ago. If you tell a deaf person they're hearing impaired, they're liable to deck you on the spot. Yeah, and blind people haven't progressed to that point, but it's getting there, and the reality is blind and low vision is a much more appropriate terminology to use, and it's not equating us to not having eyesight by saying we're impaired, you know. So it's it's an ongoing process, and all we can do is continue to work at it? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 46:21 Yeah, no. And I appreciate that you do. Like I said, education and retraining is, is call it marketing or call it, you know, just the way people should behave. But it's, that's, it's hard. It's one of the hardest things to do. Michael Hingson ** 46:36 But, you know, we're making progress, and we'll, we'll continue to do that, and I think over time we'll we'll see things improve. It may not happen as quickly as we'd like, but I also believe that I and other people who are blind do need to be educators. We need to teach people. We need to be patient enough to do that. And you know, I see so often articles written about Me who talk about how my guide dog led me out of the World Trade Center. The guide dog doesn't lead anybody anywhere. That's not the job of the dog. The dog's job is to make sure that we walk safely. It's my job to know where to go and how to get there. So a guide dog guides and will make sure that we walk safely. But I'm the one that has to tell the dog, step by step, where I want the dog to go, and that story is really the crux of what I talk about many times when I travel and speak to talk to the public about what happened in the World Trade Center, because I spent a lot of time learning what I needed to do in order to escape safely and on September 11, not ever Having anticipated that we would need that kind of information, but still preparing for it, the mindset kicked in, and it all worked well. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 47:49 You You and I talked about Uber on on my show, when you came on, and we gave them a little ding and figured out some stuff for them, what in terms of accessibility, and, you know, just general corporate citizenship, what's what's a company that, let's give them a give, give, call them out for a good reason? What's a company that's doing a good job, in your eyes, in your mind, for accessibility, maybe an unexpected one. Michael Hingson ** 48:20 Well, as I mentioned before, I think Apple is doing a lot of good things. I think Microsoft is doing some good I think they could do better than they are in in some ways, but they're working at it. I wish Google would put a little bit more emphasis on making its you its interface more more usable to you really use the like with Google Docs and so on. You have to hurt learn a whole lot of different commands to make part of that system work, rather than it being as straightforward as it should be, there's some new companies coming up. There's a new company called inno search. Inno search.ai, it was primarily designed at this point for blind and low vision people. The idea behind inner search is to have any a way of dealing with E commerce and getting people to be able to help get help shopping and so on. So they actually have a a phone number. It's, I think it's 855, shop, G, P, T, and you can go in, and you can talk to the bot and tell it what you want, and it can help fill up a shopping cart. It's using artificial intelligence, but it understands really well. I have yet to hear it tell me I don't understand what you want. Sometimes it gives me a lot of things that more than I than I'm searching for. So there, there's work that needs to be done, but in a search is really a very clever company that is spending a lot of time working to make. Sure that everything that it does to make a shopping experience enjoyable is also making sure that it's accessible. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 50:08 Oh, that's really interesting. Now, with with my podcast, and just in general, I spend a lot of time critiquing companies and and not taking them to test, but figuring out how to make them better. But I always like the opportunity to say you did something well, like even quietly, or you're, you know, people are finding you because of a certain something you didn't you took it upon yourselves to do and figure out Michael Hingson ** 50:34 there's an audio editor, and we use it some unstoppable mindset called Reaper. And Reaper is a really great digital audio workstation product. And there is a whole series of scripts that have been written that make Reaper incredibly accessible as an audio editing tool. It's really great. It's about one of the most accessible products that I think I have seen is because they've done so well with it, which is kind of cool. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 51:06 Oh, very nice. Okay, good. It's not even expensive. You gave me two to look, to pay attention to, and, you know, Track, track, along with, Michael Hingson ** 51:16 yeah, they're, they're, they're fun. So what do people assume about you that isn't true or that you don't think is true? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 51:25 People say, I'm quiet at times, guess going back to childhood, but there's time, there's situation. It's it's situational. There's times where I don't have to be the loudest person in the room or or be the one to talk the most, I can hang back and observe, but I would not categorize myself as quiet, you know, like I said, it's environmental. But now I've got plenty to say. You just have to engage me, I guess. Michael Hingson ** 51:56 Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting. I'm trying to remember Michael Hingson ** 52:04 on Shark Tank, what's Mark's last name, Cuban. Cuban. It's interesting to watch Mark on Shark Tank. I don't know whether he's really a quiet person normally, but I see when I watch Shark Tank. The other guys, like Mr. Wonderful with Kevin are talking all the time, and Mark just sits back and doesn't say anything for the longest period of time, and then he drops a bomb and bids and wins. Right? He's just really clever about the way he does it. I think there's a lot to be said for not just having to speak up every single time, but rather really thinking things through. And he clearly does that, Aaron Wolpoff, ** 52:46 yeah, yeah, you have to appreciate that. And I think that's part of the reason that you know, when I came time to do a podcast, I did a panel show, because I'm surrounded by bright, interesting, articulate people, you included as coming on with us and and I don't have to fill every second. I can, I can, I, you know, I can intake information and think for a second and then maybe have a Michael Hingson ** 53:15 response. Well, I think that makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? I mean, it's the way it really ought to be. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 53:20 Yeah, if you got to fill an hour by yourself, you're always on, right? Michael Hingson ** 53:26 Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I know when I travel to speak. I figure that when I land somewhere, I'm on until I leave again. So I always enjoy reading books, especially going and coming on airplanes. And then I can be on the whole time. I am wherever I have to be, and then when I get on the airplane to come home, I can relax again. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 53:45 Now, I like that. And I know, you keynote, I think I'd rather moderate, you know, I'll say something when I have something to say, and let other people talk for a while. Well, you gotta, you have a great story, and you're, you know, I'm glad you're getting it out there. Michael Hingson ** 53:58 Well, if anybody needs a keynote speaker. Just saying, for everybody listening, feel free to email me. I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com or speaker at Michael hingson.com always looking for speaking engagements. Then we got that one in. I'm glad, but, but you know, for you, is there a podcast episode that you haven't done, that you really want to do, that just seems to be eluding you? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 54:28 There are a couple that got away. I wanted to do one about Sesame Street because it was without a it was looking like it was going to be without a home. And that's such a hallmark of my childhood. And so many, yeah, I think they worked out a deal, which is probably what I was going to propose with. It's like a CO production deal with Netflix. So it seems like they're safe for the foreseeable future. But what was the other I think there's, there's at least one or two more where maybe the guests didn't line up, or. Or the timeliness didn't work. I was going to have someone connected to Big Lots. You remember Big Lots? I think they're still around to some degree, but I think they are, come on and tell me their story, because they've, you know, they've been on the brink of extinction for a little while. So it's usually, it's either a timing thing, with the with with the guest, or the news cycle has just maybe gone on and moved past us. Michael Hingson ** 55:28 But, yeah, I know people wrote off Red Lobster for a while, but they're still around. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 55:35 They're still around. That would be a good one. Yeah, their endless shrimp didn't do them any favors. No, that didn't help a whole lot, but it's the companies, even the ones we've done already, you know, they they're still six months later. Toilet hasn't been even a full year of our show yet, but in a year, I bet there's, you know, we could revisit them all over again, and they're still going to find themselves in, I don't know, hot water, but some kind of controversy for one reason or another. And we'll, we'll try to help them out again. Michael Hingson ** 56:06 Have you seen any successes from the podcast episodes where a company did listen to you and has made some changes? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 56:15 I don't know that. I can correlate one to one. We know that they listen. We can look at the metrics and where the where the list listens, are coming from, especially with LinkedIn, gives you some engagement and tells you which companies are paying attention. So we know that they are and they have now, whether they took that and, you know, implemented it, we have a disclaimer saying, Don't do it. You know, we're not there to give you unfiltered legal advice. You know, don't hold us accountable for anything we say. But if we said something good and you like it, do it. So, you know, I don't know to a T if they have then we probably given away billions of dollars worth of fixes. But, you know, I don't know the correlation between those who have listened and those who have acted on something that we might have, you know, alluded to or set out, right? But it has. We've been the times that we take it really seriously. We've we've predicted some things that have come come to pass. Michael Hingson ** 57:13 That's cool, yeah. Well, you certainly had a great career, and you've done a lot of interesting things. If you had to suddenly change careers and do something entirely different from what you're doing, what would it be? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 57:26 Oh, man, my family laughs at me, but I think it would be a furniture salesman. There you go. Yeah, I don't know why. There's something about it's just enough repetition and just enough creativity. I guess, where people come in, you tell them, you know you, they tell you their story, you know, you get to know them. And then you say, Oh, well, this sofa would be amazing, you know, and not, not one with endless varieties, not one with with two models somewhere in between. Yeah, I think that would be it keeps you on your feet. Michael Hingson ** 58:05 Furniture salesman, well, if you, you know, if you get too bored, math is homes and Bob's furniture probably looking for people. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 58:12 Yeah, I could probably do that at night. Michael Hingson ** 58:18 What advice do you give to people who are just starting out, or what kinds of things do you would you give to people we have ideas and thoughts? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 58:27 So I've done a lot of mentoring. I've done a lot of one on one calls. They told I always work with an organization. They told me I did 100 plus calls. I always tell people to take use the create their own momentum, so you can apply for things, you can stand in line, you can wait, or you can come up with your own idea and test it out and say, I'm doing this. Who wants in? And the minute you have an idea, people are interested. You know, you're on to something. Let me see what that's all about. You know, I want to be one of the three that you're looking for. So I tell them, create their own momentum. Try to flip the power dynamic. So if you're asking for a job, how do you get the person that you're asking to want something from you and and do things that are take on, things that are within your control? Michael Hingson ** 59:18 Right? Right? Well, if you had to go back and tell the younger Aaron something from years ago, what would you give him in the way of advice? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 59:30 Be more vulnerable. Don't pretend you know everything. There you go. And you don't need to know everything. You need to know what you know. And then get a little better and get a little better. Michael Hingson ** 59:43 One of the things that I constantly tell people who I hire as salespeople is you can be a student, at least for a year. Don't hesitate to ask your customers questions because they're not out to. Get you. They want you to succeed. And if you interact with your customers and you're willing to learn from them, they're willing to teach, and you'll learn so much that you never would have thought you would learn. I just think that's such a great concept. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 1:00:12 Oh, exactly right. Yeah. As soon as I started saying that to clients, you know, they would throw out an industry term. As soon as I've said I don't know what that is, can you explain it to me? Yeah? And they did, and the world didn't fall apart. And I didn't, you know, didn't look like the idiot that I thought I would when we went on with our day. Yeah, that whole protective barrier that I worked so hard to keep up as a facade, I didn't have to do it, and it was so freeing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 1:00:41 I hear you. Well, this has been fun. We've been doing it for an hour. Can you believe it? Oh, hey, that was a quick hour. I know it was a lot of fun. Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening. Please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening or watching. We really appreciate it. We value your thoughts. I'd love to hear from you and get your thoughts on our episode today. And I'm sure Aaron would like that as well, and I'll give you an email address in a moment. But Aaron, if people want to reach out to you and maybe use your services, how do they do that? Aaron Wolpoff, ** 1:01:12 Yeah, so two ways you can check me out, at double zebra, z, E, B, R, A, double zebra.com and the podcast, I encourage you to check out too. We fixed it. Pod.com, we fixed it. Michael Hingson ** 1:01:25 Pod.com, there you go. So reach out to Aaron and get marketing stuff done and again. Thank you all. My email address, if you'd like to talk to us, is Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and if you know anyone else who you think ought to be a guest on our podcast, we'd love it if you give us an introduction. We're always looking for people, so please do and again. Aaron, I just want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun. Aaron Wolpoff, ** 1:01:58 That was great. Thanks for having me. Michael, **Michael Hingson ** 1:02:05 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

ceo university netflix california live children trust ai australia google business uk master apple marketing san francisco new york times miami microsoft new jersey iphone bachelor san diego hospitals uber track mba tesla gen z silicon valley blind quiet flash cd ambassadors thunder gotta stitcher bay area ebooks saas unstoppable bay cmo shark tank ev northern california horrible pepsi cuban adobe app store toilet ratings iot sesame street central park rutgers university world trade center evs doritos interstate ic reaper voiceover tylenol google docs uc american red cross uc irvine general mills uci phi red lobster crms ucsd san francisco state university countess marketing strategist zed cheerios national federation north bay fritos novato michael h captain crunch inno crystal pepsi big lots ucs exxon mobile chief vision officer federal express scripps college your iphone honey nut cheerios michael hingson international mba accessibe american humane association thunder dog hero dog awards

Episode 368 – Unstoppable Creator and Visionary with Walden Hughes

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 5, 2025 65:05

As you will learn, our guest this time, Walden Hughes, is blind and has a speech issue. However, as you also will discover none of this has stopped Walden from doing what he wants and likes. I would not say Walden is driven. Instead, I would describe Walden as a man of vision who works calmly to accomplish whatever task he wishes to undertake. Walden grew up in Southern California including attending and graduating from the University of California at Irvine. Walden also received his Master's degree from UCI. Walden's professional life has been in the financial arena where he has proven quite successful. However, Walden also had other plans for his life. He has had a love of vintage radio programs since he was a child. For him, however, it wasn't enough to listen to programs. He found ways to meet hundreds of people who were involved in radio and early television. His interviews air regularly on www.yesterdayusa.net which he now directs. Walden is one of those people who works to make life better for others through the various entertainment projects he undertakes and helps manage. I hope you find Walden's life attitude stimulating and inspiring. About the Guest: With deep roots in U.S. history and a lifelong passion for nostalgic entertainment, Walden Hughes has built an impressive career as an entertainment consultant, producer, and historian of old-time radio. Since beginning his collection in 1976, he has amassed over 50,000 shows and has gone on to produce live events, conventions, and radio recreations across the country, interviewing over 200 celebrities along the way. A graduate of UC Irvine with both a BA in Economics and Political Science and an MBA in Accounting/Finance, he also spent a decade in the investment field before fully embracing his love of entertainment history. His leadership includes serving as Lions Club President, President of Radio Enthusiasts of Puget Sound, and long-time board member of SPERDVAC, earning numerous honors such as the Eagle Scout rank, Herb Ellis Award, and the Dick Beals Award. Today, he continues to preserve and celebrate the legacy of radio and entertainment through Yesterday USA and beyond. Ways to connect with Walden: SPERDVAC: https://m.facebook.com/sperdvacconvention/ Yesterday USA: https://www.facebook.com/share/16jHW7NdCZ/?mibextid=wwXIfr REPS: https://www.facebook.com/share/197TW27jRi/?mibextid=wwXIfr About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset, where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. We're going to deal with all of that today. We have a guest who I've known for a while. I didn't know I knew him as long as I did, but yeah, but we'll get to that. His name is Walden Hughes, and he is, among other things, the person who is the driving force now behind a website yesterday USA that plays 24 hours a day old radio shows. What I didn't know until he told me once is that he happened to listen to my show back on K UCI in Irvine when I was doing the Radio Hall of Fame between 1969 and 1976 but I only learned that relatively recently, and I didn't actually meet Walden until a few years ago, when we moved down to Victorville and we we started connecting more, and I started listening more to yesterday, USA. We'll talk about some of that. But as you can tell, we're talking, once again, about radio and vintage radio programs, old radio programs from the 30s, 40s and 50s, like we did a few weeks ago with Carl Amari. We're going to have some other people on. Walden is helping us get some other people onto unstoppable mindset, like, in a few weeks, we're going to introduce and talk with Zuzu. Now, who knows who Zuzu is? I know Walden knows, but I'll bet most of you don't. Here's a clue. Whenever a bell rings, an angel gets his wingsu was the little girl on. It's a Wonderful Life. The movie played by Carol from Yeah, and she the star was Carolyn Grimes, and we've met Carolyn. Well, we'll get to all that. I've talked enough. Walden, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're Walden Hughes ** 03:19 here. Hello, Michael boy, I mean, you, you had John Roy on years ago, and now you finally got to me that's pretty amazing. Michael Hingson ** 03:25 Well, you know, we should have done it earlier, but that's okay, but, but you know what they say, the best is always saved for last. Walden Hughes ** 03:34 Hey. Well, you know, considering you've been amazing with this show on Friday night for the last year. So here yesterday, USA, so we you and I definitely know our ins and outs. So this should be an easy our place talk. Michael Hingson ** 03:47 Yes. Is this the time to tell people that Walden has the record of having 42 tootsie rolls in his mouth at once? Walden Hughes ** 03:52 That's what they say. I think we could do more, though, you know. But yeah, yeah. Well, we won't ask, miss, yeah, we won't ask you to do that here. Why not? Michael Hingson ** 04:03 Yeah, we want you to be able to talk. Well, I'm really glad you're here. Tell us a little about the early Walden growing up and all that. Walden Hughes ** 04:12 I'm my mom and dad are from Nebraska, so I have a lot of Midwestern Nebraska ties. They moved out here for jobs in 65 and I was born in 1966 and I was the first baby to ever survive the world Pierre syndrome, which means I was born with a cleft palate, being extremely near sighted and and a cup and a recession. So I was the first baby through my mom and dad debt by $10,000 in 17 days, and it was a struggle for my folks. You know, in those early days, without insurance, without any. Thing like that. You know, people really didn't think about medical insurance and things like that in those days, that was not an issue. So, um, so I've always had extremely loving family. Then I went through five retina detachments, and starting when I was seven years old, up to I was nine, and I finally woke up one morning seeing white half circle so the retina detached. Sometime in the middle of the night, went to the most famous eye doctor the world at times, Dr Robert macchermer, who was the one who invented the cataract surgery and everything. Later, he wound up being the head of Duke Medical that was down in Florida, and they took one last ditch effort to save my sight, but it was a 2% chance, and it didn't work out. So they went blind in November 75 and went into school for people who may or may not know California pretty aggressive in terms of education, and so when I wear hearing aids, so I parted a hard of hearing class. Newport school. Mesa took care of the kids who were hard of hearing and the blind children went up to Garden Grove. So when I walked my site, went up to Garden Grove. And so that was my dedication. I was always a driven person. So and I also had a family that supported me everything I ever did. They didn't it just they were ultimately supporting me in education, all sorts of stuff. So I wound up in the Boy Scout Program. Wound up being an Eagle Scout like you, wound up being visual honoring the OA. And this was always side of kids. I was sort of the organizer all decided kid, and there was Walden that was right, I was that way in my entire life, which is interesting that the most kids are all hanging out. We were sighted and and even the school district, which was pretty amazing to think about it, Newport, they told my mom and dad, hey, when Wong ready to come back to his home school district, we'll cover the bill. We'll do it. And so my freshman year, after my freshman year in high school, we thought, yeah, it's time to come back. And so the Newport school, Mesa picked up the tab, and so did very well. Went up, applied to seven colleges, Harvard, a Yale Stanford turned me down, but everybody else took me Michael Hingson ** 07:53 so, but you went to the best school anyway. Walden Hughes ** 07:57 So I mean, either like Michael Troy went to UCI and I graduated in three years and two quarters with a degree in economics, a degree in politics, a minor in management, and then I went to work as a financial planner with American Express and then a stockbroker. I always wanted to go back get my MBA. So I got my MBA at UCI, and I graduated with my MBA in accounting and finance in 1995 so that's sort of the academic part Wow of my life. Michael Hingson ** 08:32 How did your parents handle when it was first discovered that you were blind? So that would have been in what 75 how do they handle that? Walden Hughes ** 08:42 They handle it really well. I think my dad was wonderful. My dad was the one that took, took me my birth, to all the doctor appointments, you know, such a traumatic thing for my mom. So my dad took that responsibility. My mom just clean house. But they, they My dad always thought if I were going to make it through life, it was going to be between my ears. It could be my brain and I, I was gifted and academically in terms of my analytical abilities are really off the chart. They tested me like in 160 and that mean I could take a very complicated scenario, break it down and give you a quick answer how to solve it within seconds. And that that that paid off. So no, I think, and they they had complete and so they put in the time. Michael Hingson ** 09:47 What kind of work did your dad do? My dad Walden Hughes ** 09:51 wound up being a real estate agent, okay, and so that gave him flexibility time. My mom wound up working for the Irvine camp. Attorney, which is the big agriculture at that time, now, apartments and commercial real estate here in oil County and so. So with their support and with the emphasis on education, and so they helped me great. They helped my brother a great deal. So I think in my case, having two really actively involved parents paid off, you know, in terms of, they knew where to support me and they knew the one to give me my give me my head, you know, because I would a classic example of this. After I graduated from college at UCI, I was looking for work, and mom said, my mom's saying, oh, keep go to rehab. Talk to them. They're both to help you out, give it. I really wasn't interested, so I sat down and met with them and had several interviews, and they said we're not going to fund you because either A, you're gonna be so successful on your own you pay for your own stuff, or B, you'll completely fail. So when I, and that's when they flat out, told me at rehab, so I I had more more luck in the private sector finding work than I did ever in the public sector, which was interesting. Michael Hingson ** 11:39 I know that when I was in high school, and they it's still around today, of course, they had a program called SSI through the Department of Social Security, and then that there, there was also another program aid of the potentially self supporting blind, and we applied for those. And when I went to UC Irvine, I had met, actually, in 1964 a gentleman while I was up getting my guide dog. He was getting a guide dog. His name was Howard Mackey, and when I went to college, my parents also explored me getting some services and assistance from the Department of Rehabilitation, and I was accepted, and then Howard Mackey ended up becoming my counselor. And the neat thing about it was he was extremely supportive and really helped in finding transcribers to put physics books in braille, paid for whatever the state did it at the time, readers and other things like that that I needed provided equipment. It was really cool. He was extremely supportive, which I was very grateful for. But yeah, I can understand sometimes the rehabilitation world can be a little bit wonky. Of course, you went into it some 18 to 20 years later than that. I, in a sense, started it because I started in 6869 Yeah. And I think over time, just the state got cheaper, everything got cheaper. And of course, now it's really a lot different than it used to be, and it's a lot more challenging to get services from a lot of the agencies. And of course, in our current administration, a lot of things are being cut, and nobody knows exactly what's going to happen. And that's pretty Walden Hughes ** 13:30 scary, actually. When I went to UCI, the school picked it up the pic, the school picked up my transcribing. They picked up my readers and all that. So interesting. How? Michael Hingson ** 13:39 But did they let you hire your own readers and so on? Or do they do that? Walden Hughes ** 13:43 They just put out the word, and people came up and and they paid them. So they just, they were just looking for volunteer, looking for people on the campus to do all the work. And, yeah, in fact, in fact, I had one gal who read pretty much all my years. She was waiting to get a job in the museum. And the job she wanted, you basically had to die to get it open. And so she for a full time employee with the read, can I be taking 20 units a quarter? Yeah. So I was, I was cranking it out. And in those days, everybody, you were lucky they I was lucky to get the material a week or two before midterm. Yeah, so I would speed up the tape and do a couple all nighters just to get through, because I really didn't want to delay, delay by examinations. I wanted to get it, get it through. But, uh, but, you know, but also, I guess I was going four times just throughout the quarter, set them into the summer. Okay, I wanted to get it done. Yeah, so that's, that's how I Michael Hingson ** 14:50 did it. I didn't do summer school, but I did 16 to 20 units a quarter as well, and kept readers pretty busy and was never questioned. And even though we have some pretty hefty reader bills, but it it worked, no and and I hired my own readers, we put out the word, but I hired my own readers. And now I think that's really important. If a school pays for the readers, but lets you hire the readers, that's good, because I think that people need to learn how to hire and fire and how to learn what's necessary and how to get the things that they need. And if the agency or the school does it all and they don't learn how to do it, that's a problem. Walden Hughes ** 15:36 If fashioning is just a sidebar issue, computer really became a big part. And with my hearing loss, TSI was really, yeah, telesensory, the one Incorporated, right? And they were upscale, everybody. It was, you know, $2,500 a pop. And for my hearing, it was the was for the card, the actual card that fits into the slot that would read, oh, okay, okay, right. And eventually they went with software with me, a lot cheaper, yes, and so, so my folks paid for that in the early days, the mid 80s, the computers and the software and a lot of that were trial and error terms of there was not any customer support from the from the computer company that were making special products like that, you were pretty much left on your own to figure it out. Yeah, and so time I went to graduate in 1990 we figured, in the business world, financial planning, I'm gonna need a whole complete setup at work, and we're gonna cost me 20 grand, yeah, and of course, when we have saying, We biking it, we're gonna finance it. What happened was, and this has helped with the scouting program. I knew the vice president of the local bank. And in those days, if it was, if it was still a small bank, he just went, he gave me a personal loan, hmm, and he, I didn't have to get any code centers or anything. No, we're gonna be the first one to finance you. You get your own computer set up. And so they, they, they financed it for me, and then also Boyle kicked in for 7500 but that was, that's how I was able to swing my first really complicated $20,000 units in 1990 Michael Hingson ** 17:33 the Braille Institute had a program. I don't know whether they still do or not they, they had a program where they would pay for, I don't know whether the top was 7500 I know they paid for half the cost of technology, but that may have been the upper limit. I know I used the program to get in when we moved, when we moved to New Jersey. I was able to get one of the, at that time, $15,000 Kurzweil Reading machines that was in 1996 and Braille Institute paid for half that. So it was pretty cool. But you mentioned TSI, which is telesensory Systems, Inc, for those who who wouldn't know that telesensory was a very innovative company that developed a lot of technologies that blind and low vision people use. For example, they developed something called the optic on which was a box that had a place where you could put a finger, and then there was attached to it a camera that you could run over a printed page, and it would display in the box a vibrating image of each character as the camera scanned across the page. It wasn't a really fast reading program. I think there were a few people who could read up to 80 words a minute, but it was still originally one of the first ways that blind people had access to print. Walden Hughes ** 18:59 And the first guinea pig for the program. Can I just walk my site in 75 and they, they wanted me to be on there. I was really the first one that the school supply the optic on and has special training, because they knew I knew what site looked like for everybody, what Mike's describing. It was dB, the electronic waves, but it'd be in regular print letters, not, not broil waters, right? What Michael Hingson ** 19:25 you felt were actually images of the print letters, yeah. Walden Hughes ** 19:30 And the thing got me about it, my hand tingled after a while, Michael Hingson ** 19:35 yeah, mine Walden Hughes ** 19:36 to last forever, Michael Hingson ** 19:38 you know. So it was, it wasn't something that you could use for incredibly long periods of time. Again, I think a few people could. But basically, print letters are made to be seen, not felt, and so that also limited the speed. Of course, technology is a whole lot different today, and the optic on has has faded away. And as Walden said, the card that would. Used to plug into computer slots that would verbalize whatever came across the screen has now given way to software and a whole lot more that makes it a lot more usable. But still, there's a lot of advances to be made. But yeah, we we both well, and another thing that TSI did was they made probably the first real talking calculator, the view, plus, remember Walden Hughes ** 20:25 that? Yep, I know a good sound quality. Michael Hingson ** 20:28 Though it was good sound quality. It was $395 and it was really a four function calculator. It wasn't scientific or anything like that, but it still was the first calculator that gave us an opportunity to have something that would at least at a simple level, compete with what sighted people did. And yes, you could plug your phone so they couldn't so sighted people, if you were taking a test, couldn't hear what what the calculator was saying. But at that time, calculators weren't really allowed in the classroom anyway, so Walden Hughes ** 21:00 my downside was, time I bought the equipment was during the DOS mode, and just like that, window came over, and that pretty much made all my equipment obsolete, yeah, fairly quickly, because I love my boil display. That was terrific for for when you learn with computers. If you're blind, you didn't really get a feel what the screen looked like everybody. And with a Braille display, which mine was half the screen underneath my keyboard, I could get a visual feel how things laid out on the computer. It was easier for me to communicate with somebody. I knew what they were talking Michael Hingson ** 21:42 about, yeah. And of course, it's gotten so much better over time. But yeah, I remember good old MS DOS. I still love to play some of the old MS DOS games, like adventure and all that, though, and Zork and some of those fun games. Walden Hughes ** 21:57 But my understanding dos is still there. It's just windows on top of it, basically, Michael Hingson ** 22:02 if you open a command prompt in Windows that actually takes you to dos. So dos is still there. It is attached to the whole system. And sometimes you can go in and enter commands through dos to get things done a little bit easier than you might be able to with the normal graphic user interface, right? Well, so you, you got your master's degree in 1995 and so you then continue to work in the financial world, or what did Walden Hughes ** 22:35 it for 10 years, but five years earlier? Well, maybe I should back it up this way. After I lost my site in 1976 I really gravitated to the radio, and my generation fell in love with talk radio, so I and we were really blessed here in the LA market with really terrific hosts at KBC, and it wasn't all the same thing over and over and beating the drum. And so listening to Ray Breen, Michael Jackson, IRA for still kill Hemingway, that was a great opportunity for somebody who was 10 years old. Michael Hingson ** 23:18 Really, they were all different shows. And yes, I remember once we were listening to, I think it was Michael Jackson. It was on Sunday night, and we heard this guy talking about submarines, and it just attracted Karen's and my attention. And it turns out what it was was Tom Clancy talking about Hunt for Red October. Wow. And that's where we first heard about it, and then went and found the book. Walden Hughes ** 23:45 But So I grew up in the talk radio, and then that, and I fell in love with country music at the time on koec, and then Jim Healy and sports, yep, and then, and then we were blessed in the LA market have a lot of old time radio played, and it was host like Mike was here at K UCI, John Roy, eventually over KPCC, Bob line. And so my relatives said you should listen to this marathon KPFK, which was a Pacific did an all day marathon. I fell in love with that. Jay Lacher, then one night, after I walked my site, I tuned in. Ray bream took the night off, and Bill balance had frankly sit in. And the first thing they played was Jack Armstrong, and this is where Jack, Jack and Billy get caught up in a snow storm and a bone down the hill. And Brett Morrison came in during the one o'clock two o'clock hour to talk about the shadow. And so my dad took me to, oh, I'm trying to think of the name of the record. Or if they gave away licorice, licorice at the at the record store tower, yeah, not Tower Records. Um, anyway, so we bought two eight track tapes in 1976 the shadow and Superman, and I started my long life of collecting and so. So here we up to 1990 after collecting for 15 years. Going to spill back conventional meetings. I knew Ray bream was going to have kitty Cowan at the guest. Kitty Cowan was a big band singer of the 40s who later the fifth little things mean a lot. And I figured nobody was going to act about her days on the Danny Kaye radio show. And so I called in. They realized I had the stuff. I had the radio shows, they took me off the air, and Kitty's husband, but grand off called me the next day, and we struck up a friendship. And so they were really connected in Hollywood, and so they opened so many doors for me. Mike I Katie's best friend with Nancy Lacher, SR bud with the one of the most powerful agents in town, the game show hosting, who could come up with a TV ideas, but did not know how to run a organization. So that was Chuck Paris, hmm, and Gong Show, yeah, so I wound up, they wound up giving me, hire me to find the old TV shows, the music, all that stuff around the country. And so I started to do that for the Sinatra family, everybody else. So I would, while we do the financial planning, my internet consulting thing really took off. So that wound up being more fun and trying to sell disability insurance, yeah. So one wound up doing that until the internet took over. So that would that. So my whole life would really reshape through kitty Carolyn and Ben granoff through that. So I really connected in the Hollywood industry from that point on, starting 1990 so that that really opened up, that really sure reshaped my entire life, just because of that Michael Hingson ** 27:28 and you've done over the years, one of the other things that you started to do was to interview a lot of these people, a lot of the radio stars, The radio actors Walden Hughes ** 27:39 and music and TV, music, Michael Hingson ** 27:44 yeah. Walden Hughes ** 27:45 And I think when Bill Bragg asked me to interview kitty Carol, and I did that in 2000 and Bill said, Well, could you do more? And so one of Kitty friends, but test Russell. Test was Gene Autry Girl Friday. He she ran kmpc for him. And I think everybody in the music industry owed her a favor. I mean, I had Joe Stafford to Pat Boone to everybody you could think of from the from that big band, 3040s, and 60s on the show. Let's go Michael Hingson ** 28:24 back. Let's go back. Tell us about Bill Bragg. Walden Hughes ** 28:29 Bill Bragg was an interesting character all by himself. Born in 1946 he was a TV camera man for CBS in Dallas. He was also a local music jockey, nothing, nothing, big, big claims of fame boys working for channel two. And then he in Dallas, he was at a press conference with LBJ, and LBJ got done speaking, and the camera crew decided that they were going to pack up and go to lunch. And Bill thought it'd be fun to mark what camera, what microphone the President used for his address, and the guys were in a rush door in the box, let's go have lunch. So Bill lost track, and that bothered him. So he started the largest communication Museum in 1979 and he collected and was donated. And so he had the biggest museum. He had a film exchanger. So in those early days of cable TVs, you know, we had a lot of TV stations specializing in programming, and there were channels, I think this was called a nostalgic channel, wanted to run old TV shows and films. They had the film, but they didn't. Have the equipment. And they got hold of Bill. He said, Okay, I'll do it for you. But what you're going to give me is games. Bill was a wheel and dealer, yeah. And Charlie said, We'll give you your own satellite channel. And I was talking to Bill friend later, John women in those days, in the 1983 when Bill got it, the value of those satellite channels was a million dollars a year, and he got it for free. And Bill would try and figure out, What in the world I'm going to do with this, and that's when he decided to start playing with old time radio, because really nobody was playing that on a national basis. You had different people playing it on a local basis, but not really on a national basis. So Bill was sort of the first one before I play old time radio. I became aware of him because of bur back, so I was trying to get the service on my cable TV company. Was unsuccessful. Michael Hingson ** 30:58 So what he did is he broadcast through the satellite channel, and then different television stations or companies could if they chose to pick up the feed and broadcast it. Did, they broadcast it on a TV channel or Walden Hughes ** 31:13 on radio public asset channel. Okay, so remember note day a lot of public it would have the bulletin boards with the local news of right community, and lot of them would play Bill can't Michael Hingson ** 31:28 play Bill's channel because the only because what they were doing was showing everything on the screen, which didn't help us. But right they would show things on the screen, and they would play music or something in the background. So Bill's programs were a natural thing to play, Walden Hughes ** 31:44 yeah, and so Bill wound up on a stout then he wound up being the audio shop Troyer for WGN, which was a nice break and so. And then Bill got it to be played in 2000 nursing homes and hospitals, and then local AMFM stations would pick us up. They were looking for overnight programming, so local throughout the country would pick it up. And so Bill, Bill was a go getter. He was a great engineer, and knew how to build things on the cheap. He was not a businessman, you know, he couldn't take it to the next level, but, but at least he was able to come up with a way to run a station, 24 hours a day. It was all the tapes were sent down to Nash, down to Tennessee, to be uploaded to play into the system. Eventually, he built a studio and everything in Dallas. And so, Michael Hingson ** 32:38 of course, what what Weldon is saying is that that everything was on tape, whether it was cassette or reel to reel, well, reel to reel, and they would play the tapes through a tape machine, a player or recorder, and put it out on the satellite channels, which was how they had to do it. And that's how we did it at kuci, we had tape, and I would record on Sunday nights, all the shows that we were going to play on a given night on a reel of tape. We would take it in and we would play it. Walden Hughes ** 33:13 And so that's how it's done in the 80s. Eventually built bill, built a studio, and then started to do a live show once a week. Eventually, they grew up to four days a week. And so here is about 1999 or so, and they were playing Musa from kitty cat, and did not know who she was. I would quickly, I would quickly give a couple background from AIM hang up. I didn't really they had no idea who I was yet. I didn't talk about what I would do and things like that. I was just supplying information. And eventually, after two years, they asked me to bring kitty on the show, which I did, and then I started to book guests on a regular basis for them, and then eventually, the guy who I enjoyed all time radio shows listening to Frank Percy 1976 built decided that I should be his producer, and so I wound up producing the Friday Night Live show with Frankie, and eventually we got it up and running, 2002 So Frank and I did it together for 16 years and so that so Bill built a studio in Texas, mailed it all to my House. My dad didn't have any engineering ability. So he and my bill got on the phone and built me a whole studio in six hours, and I was up and running with my own studio here in my bedroom, in 2002 and so overhead, I'm in my bedroom ever since Michael, you know, there you go. Michael Hingson ** 34:58 Well and to tell people about. Frank Bresee Frank, probably the biggest claim to fame is that he had a program called the golden days of radio, and it was mainly something that was aired in the Armed Forces Radio and Television Service on the radio, where he would every show play excerpts of different radio programs and so on. And one of the neat things that's fascinating for Frank was that because he was doing so much with armed forces, and doing that, he had access to all of the libraries around the world that the Armed Forces Radio and Television Service had, so he could go in and oftentimes get shows and get things that no one else really had because they were only available in at least initially, in these military libraries. But he would put them on the air, and did a great job with it for many, many years. Yeah, Frank Walden Hughes ** 35:53 was an interesting character, a pure entrepreneur. He invented a game called pass out, which was a drinking game, board game, and he for 20 years, he spent six months in Europe, six months in United States. And he was making so much money in Europe, he would rent out castles and lived in them, and he would and he would spend months at a time in Germany, which was the main headquarter of art, and just sit there in the archives and make copies of things he wanted to play on his show, yeah. And so that's how he built that. And then he he started collecting transcriptions when he would to 10 he was a radio actor, and so he had one of the largest collection, collection, and he his house, his family house was in Hancock Park, which was the, it was Beverly Hills before Beverly Hills, basically, what did he play on radio? Well, when he was, he was he was deceptive. He was the backup little beaver. When someone Tommy, writer, yeah, when, when Tommy Cook had another project, it was Frank be was a substitute. And so that was a short coin of fame. He did bit parts on other shows, but, but that's what he did as a kid. Eventually, I think Frank came from a very wealthy family. He wound up owning the first radio station when he was 19 years old on Catalina Island in 1949 and then he wound up being a record producer. He worked with Walter Winchell, created albums on without about Al Jolson worked on Eddie Cantor and Jimmy Durante and anyway, Frank, Frank had a career with game with creating board games, doing radio and having an advertising company. Frank was responsible for giving all the game shows, the prices for TV and the way he would do it, he would call an advertise, he would call a company. He said, you want your product. Beyond on this section, go to say, yes, okay, give us, give us the product, and give me 150 bucks. And so Frank would keep the cash, and he would give the project to the TV shows, Michael Hingson ** 38:17 Dicker and Dicker of Beverly Hills. I remember that on so many shows Walden Hughes ** 38:23 so So Frank was a wheeling dealer, and he loved radio. That was his passion project. He probably made less money doing that, but he just loved doing it, and he was just hit his second house. The family house was 8400 square feet, and so it was pretty much a storage unit for Frank hobbies, right? And we and he had 30,000 transcriptions in one time. But when he was Europe, he had a couple of floods, so he lost about 10 to 20,000 of them. Okay? Folks did not know how to keep them dry, but he had his professional studio built. And so I would book guests. I arranged for art link writer to come over, and other people, Catherine Crosby, to come over, and Frank would do the interviews. And so I was a big job for me to keep the Friday night show going and get Frankie's guess boy shows. I would have been. He died, Michael Hingson ** 39:22 and he was a really good interviewer. Yeah, I remember especially he did an interview that we in, that you played on yesterday USA. And I was listening to it with Mel Blanc, which is, which is very fascinating. But he was a great interviewer. I think it was 1969 that he started the golden days of radio, starting 49 actually, or 49 not 69 Yeah, 49 that was directly local, on, Walden Hughes ** 39:49 on Carolina, and K, I, G, l, which was a station I think heard out in the valley, pretty much, yeah, we could pick it up. And then, and then he started with on. Forces around 65 Michael Hingson ** 40:02 that's what I was thinking of. I thought it was 69 but, Walden Hughes ** 40:06 and well, he was, on those days there were armed forces Europe picked them up. And also, there was also the international Armed Forces served around the far eastern network, right? Yeah. And so by 67 he was pretty much full on 400 stations throughout the whole world. And I that's probably how you guys picked him up, you know, through that capability. Michael Hingson ** 40:30 Well, that's where I first heard of him and and the only thing for me was I like to hear whole shows, and he played excerpts so much that was a little frustrating. But he was such a neat guy, you couldn't help but love all the history that he brought to it Walden Hughes ** 40:46 and and then he would produce live Christmas shows with with the radio. He would interview the guest he, you know, so he had access to people that nobody generally had, you know. He worked for Bob Hope, right? So he was able to get to Jack Benny and Bing Crosby and yes, people like that, Groucho Marx. So he was, he had connections that were beyond the average Old Time Radio buff. He was truly a great guy to help the hobby out, and loved radio very much. Michael Hingson ** 41:21 Well, going back to Bill Bragg a little bit, so he had the satellite channel, and then, of course, we got the internet, which opened so many things for for Frank or Frank for, well, for everybody but for Bill. And he started the program yesterday, usa.net, on the radio through the internet, Walden Hughes ** 41:44 which he was the first one in 1996 right? There's a great story about that. There was a company called broadcast.com I bet you remember that company, Mike. Anyway, it was founded by a guy who loved college basketball, and he was a big Hoosier fan, and he was living in Texas, and so he would generally call long distance to his buddy, and they would put up the radio. He could went to the basketball games. And eventually he decided, well, maybe I could come up and stream it on my computer, and all these equipment breaking down, eventually he came up with the idea of, well, if I had a satellite dish, I could pick up the feed and put and stream it on the computer, that way people could hear it right. And he hired bill to do that, and he offered bill a full time job installing satellites and working Bill turned them down, and the guy wound up being Mark Cuban. Yeah, and Mark Cuban gave every every employee, when he sold broadcast.com to Yahoo, a million dollar bonus. So Bill missed out on that, but, but in exchange, Mike Cuban gave him broadcast.com While USA channel for free. So Bill never had to pay in the early days, until about 2002 so when Yahoo decided to get out of the streaming business for a while, then that's when we had to find and we found life 365 eventually, and we were paying pretty good. We're paying a really good rate with like 265 Bill was used to paying free, and we were paying, I think, under $100 and I knew guys later a couple years, were paying over $500 a month. And we were, we were, but there was such a willing deal able to get those things for really dope less Michael Hingson ** 43:45 money, yeah. Now I remember being in New Jersey and I started hearing ads for an internet radio station. This was in the very late 90s, maybe even into 2000 W, A, B, y. It was a company, a show that a station that played a lot of old songs from the 50s and 60s and so on. And it was, it was, if you tuned on to it, you could listen. And after four or five hours, things would start to repeat, and then eventually it disappeared. But I started looking around, and I don't even remember how I found it, but one day I heard about this radio station, www, dot yesterday, usa.net. Right, yep.net.com, Walden Hughes ** 44:31 yep, and yeah. And Michael Hingson ** 44:33 I said, Well, oh, I think I actually heard an ad for it on W, A, B, y, when it was still around. Anyway, I went to it, and they were playing old radio shows, and they had a number of people who would come on and play shows. Everyone had an hour and a half show, and every two weeks you would have to send in a new show. But they. They played old radio shows, 24 hours a day and seven days a week, except they also had some live talk shows. And I remember listening one day and heard Bill Bragg talking about the fact that he was going to have his standard Friday night show with Walden Hughes, it would start at nine o'clock. I had no idea who Walden was at the time. And the problem is, nine o'clock was on the in Pacific Time, and it was, I think, Midnight in New Jersey time, as I recall the way it went anyway, it was way too late for me to be up. And so I never did hear Walden on yesterday USA, or I may have actually listened. Just stayed up to listen to one and fell asleep, but the show, the whole innovative process of playing radio all the time on the internet, was intriguing and just opened so many opportunities, I think. And of course, the internet brought all that around. And now there are any number of stations that stream all the time. And Bill Bragg passed away. What in 2016 Walden Hughes ** 46:15 2018 Michael Hingson ** 46:18 1819 2019 Yeah. And Walden now is the person who directs, operates, and is the manager of yesterday USA. And so when I go ahead, Walden Hughes ** 46:30 it's fascinating. In the height of the station, there was 15,000 internet radio stations out there in 2000 they did a survey yesterday, USA was number three in the world, behind the BBC and CNN, which I thought was a pretty nice number to be concerned. We had no budget to promote, right? And the last time I saw the numbers been a couple years, we were number 44 in the world, which I don't think of, 15,000 radio stations. Not bad. No, not at all. You know, really not bad. But now there is more talk than there used to be, because Walden and the gasmans, who we had on years ago on this podcast, but Michael Hingson ** 47:16 have interviewed a lot of people, and continue to interview people. And of course, so many people are passing on that. We're trying to talk to people as much as we can, as they can, and all of us now, because I've started to come a little bit and become a little bit involved in yesterday USA. And as Walden said on Friday night at 730 Pacific Time, see it's earlier, we we do a talk show. Bob Lyons, who did a lot of radio out here, and for 50 years, had a program called Don't touch that dial. And John and Larry and Walden and I get on the air and we talk about, Gosh, any number of different things. We've talked about Braille, we've talked about sometimes, everything but radio. But we talk about a lot of different things, which is, which is a lot of fun. Walden Hughes ** 48:04 And I think it probably is, you know, in the old days, it would pretty much no entertainment, and Bill telling some stories and things like that. But with me, I always had a focus in interviews, but it's so much more fun to do radio as a co host. And that's when Patricia and I connected back in the 2007 I knew was in 2005 she's my co host. And Patricia didn't grow up with whole town radio. She became a fan after she found yesterday, USA into 2000 but she's a very articulate person, and so through the shows, what she and I did on Saturday night, the audience grab it and just we should talk about everything, and I just generate calls. I mean, when she and I were doing eight hours a night, we would average about 18 calls a night, which was pretty amazing, but we would cover the gamut, and I think a really good talk show host had to know a little bit about a lot of things. Yes, he got it. You got to be flexible. And Patricia and I compliment each other that way, that we're able to cover history and politics and music and just everything. And so when I do a show with her, you never know what direction we go with where. When I'm with John Roy, it's more radio centric. So it depends on what night a week people tune in, is what you're going to Michael Hingson ** 49:40 get. And Walden has Patricia on now Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays, but we know why she's really on there, because she likes hearing Perry Como song Patricia that starts out every show Walden plays that he's in love with Patricia. One of these days, there's still the possibility. But anyway, we. We, he, we love it when he, he has Patricia on, and it's every week. So, so it is really cool. And they do, they talk about everything under the sun, which is so fascinating. Tell us about Johnny and Helen Holmes. Walden Hughes ** 50:15 Ah, well, it's an interesting story. I I say the second biggest old time radio station in the country, after yesterday USA. It's about half the size in terms of audience basis. Radio once more, and you can find them at Radio once more.com and they do a good job. No else with probably yesterday USA branch offers own internet radio station, and he found he would go to the east coast to the nostalgic convention, and he connected with Johnny and Helen. Holmes and Johnny and Helen are people who love to attend nostalgic convention and get autographs and things. And they became really friends. So Neil convinced them, why don't you come on? Just come on radio once more. And so after a while, they do the presentation the coffee shop. Neil convinced them to take it, take it to the air, and they started to have their own show, and I was aware of them, and I produced the spirback convention, 2017 in Las Vegas. So Johnny helm came to the convention, and Johnny wanted to say hi to me. I said, I know who you are. I think he was for by that that I knew who he was, but I invited Johnny and Helen to come on with Patricia and I one night to talk about their coffee shop presentation and their show on Radio once more. And we just bonded very quickly and easy to bond with Johnny. They really are really fabulous people. He's really a generous guy, and so over the last six, seven years, we have developed a great friendship on you, and almost have created a whole subculture by itself, playing trivia with them. Every time they come on, Michael Hingson ** 52:17 they do a lot of trivia stuff, and Johnny produces it very well. He really does a great job. And he'll put sound bites and clips and music, and it's gotten me such a major production with Johnny and Helen. And people look forward to it. I sometimes count the interaction people hanging out in the chat room, on the phone, email, about 18 to 20 people will get and get an answer question, was it amazing that that many people will be interested in trivia like that? But and, and Johnny also collects, well, I guess in Helen collect a lot of old television shows as well. Yep. So we won't hold it against him too much, but, but he does television and, well, I like old TV shows too, you bet. Well, so you know, you are, obviously, are doing a lot of different things. You mentioned spurred vac oop. They're after you. We'll wait. We'll wait till the phone die. You mentioned, well, I'll just ask this while that's going on. You mentioned spurred back. Tell us a little bit about what spurred vac is and what they've been doing and what they bring to radio. Walden Hughes ** 53:23 Sprint vac started in 1974 it's the largest full time radio group in the country, called the society to preserve and encourage radio drama, variety and comedy. John Roy Gasman were two of the main driving force behind the club. It reached up to a membership of 1800 people, and they've honored over 500 people who worked in the golden days of radio and to speak at their meeting, come to the special conventions. And so I attended some dinners at the Brown Derby, which was a great thrill. I started attending their conventions, and it was just, it was wonderful. So I so I really got to meet a lot of the old time radio personality and become friends with Janet Waldo and June for a and people like that. And so I eventually got on the board. I eventually became one young, somewhat retired. I wound up being the activity person to book guests, and started producing conventions. And so that became a major part of my life, just producing those things for spur back and in other places, and I first started to do that for reps. Was it the Old Time Radio Group in Seattle in 2007 so they were actually the first convention I produced. Michael Hingson ** 54:54 And rep says radio enthusiasts of Puget Sound, Walden Hughes ** 54:57 right? Reps online.org, G and so I would produce new convention. I was helping super vac, and I also helping the Friends of all time radio back in New Jersey and so. And it probably helped my contact, which is 300 pages long, so, and I would book it. I would also contact celebrities via the mail, and my batting average was 20% which I thought were pretty good. I got Margaret. I got Margaret Truman. She called me, said, Walden, I got your order, and I forgot that I did the show with Jimmy Stewart. I'd be happy to come on talk about my memory. You know, she talked about Fred Allen on the big show, and how, how Mike Wallace had a temper, had a temper. She was a co host. Was among weekdays, which with the weekday version of monitor. Monitor was weekend and weekday, we see NBC. And so she was just fabulous, you know, so and I would get people like that 20% bad average, which was incredible. So I met, that's how it's up to two, my guess was, so I, I was sort of go to guy, find celebrities and booking them and and so in that help yesterday, USA helped the different conventions. And so it and so you're so you're booking the panels, and then you're coming up with ideas for radio recreations. And so I produce 37 of them, ranging from one day to four days. And I get counted, over the last 18 years, I've produced 226 audio theater plays with it. A lot at least, have an idea of how those things Michael Hingson ** 56:55 work. So right now, speaking of recreations, and we're both involved in radio enthusiasts of Puget Sound, and for the last couple of years, I've participated in this. Walden has done radio recreations, and twice a year up in the Washington State area, where we bring in both some some amateurs and some professionals like Carolyn Grimes Zuzu and so many others who come in and we actually recreate old radio shows, both before a live audience, and we broadcast them on yesterday USA and other people like Margaret O'Brien who won Walden Hughes ** 57:46 Gigi Powell coming this year. Phil Proctor. David Osmond from fire sign theater. Chuck Dougherty from Sergeant Preston. John Provo from Timmy from Lassie, Bill Johnson, who does a one man show on Bob Hope. Bill Ratner from GI Joe. Bill Owen, the who might have had he is the author of The Big broadcast, Ivan Troy who Bobby Benson, Tommy cook from the life O'Reilly Gigi parole, a movie actress of the 50s, as you mentioned, Carolyn grime, Beverly Washburn and others, and it's just the radio folks are really down to earth, really nice people, and you get to break bread with them, talk to them and reminisce about what was it like doing that radio show, this movie, or that TV show, and then They still got it, and they can perform on stage, Michael Hingson ** 58:43 and they love to talk about it, and they love to interact with people who treat them as people. And so yeah, it is a lot of fun to be able to do it. In fact, I was on Carolyn Grimes podcast, which will be coming out at some point in the next little while, and Carolyn is going to be on unstoppable mindset. So keep an eye out for that. Bill Owens program is coming out soon. Bill and I did a conversation for unstoppable mindset, and we're going to be doing Bill Johnson will be coming on, and other people will be coming on. Walden has been very helpful at finding some of these folks who are willing to come on and talk about what they did, and to help us celebrate this medium that is just as much a part of history as anything in America and is just as worth listening to as it ever was. There is more to life than television, no matter what they think. Walden Hughes ** 59:40 And also, we do a Christmas thing too. And hopefully Mike, if his speaking engagement allow him, will be with us up at Christmas saying, Well, I will. I'm planning on it. We're gonna do, It's a Wonderful Life. Keith Scott, coming over from Australia, who's a he's the rich little of Australia. And we'll do, It's a Wonderful Life. We'll do. The Christmas Carol, milk on 34th Street film again, Molly Jack Benny will have a great time. Michael Hingson ** 1:00:07 These are all going to be recreations using the the original scripts from the shows, and that's what makes them fun. And for those of us who don't read print, we do have our scripts in Braille, absolutely so that's kind of fun. Well, Walden, this has been absolutely wonderful. We're going to have to do it some more. Maybe we need to get you, John and Larry all together on that. That might be kind of fun. But I really, I don't think we need a host if you that. No, no, we just, you know, just go on. But this has been really fun. I really enjoy it. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Walden Hughes ** 1:00:45 Oh, I think they can call my studio number 714-545-2071, I'm in California, or they can email me at Walden shoes at yesterday, usa.com, W, A, l, D, E, N, H, U, C, H, E, S at, y, E, S T, E, R, D, A, y, u, s a.com, I'm the president of radio enthusiast sound, that's reps online.org or on the board of Sper back, which is S, P, E, R, D, V, A, c.com, so while waiting shakes me down, when Michael Hingson ** 1:01:25 will the showcase actually occur up in Bellevue in Washington? Walden Hughes ** 1:01:30 That will be September 18, 19 20/21, and then our Christmas one is will be Friday, December five, and Saturday, December the sixth. And then we're also going back and spir back, and I bet we'll see you there. We're going to go back to the Troy Blossom Festival next April, 23 to 26 and we'll know, are we set up to do that now? Yep, looks like that gonna happen? Yeah? Oh, good, yeah. So kick out the phone with Nicholas here a few days ago. So everything's gonna go for that, so that will be good. Michael Hingson ** 1:02:03 Yeah, we will do that. That's cool. Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening. I hope you had fun. This is a little different than a lot of the episodes that we've done, but it's, I think, important and enlightening to hear about this medium into to meet people from it. So thank you for listening wherever you are. We hope that you'll give us a five star review of unstoppable mindset wherever you're listening or watching. Please do that. We'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and you can also go to our podcast page if you don't find podcasts any other way. Michael hingson.com/podcast, that's m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, singular. So thanks again for being here and for listening to the show, and Walden, once again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been great. Walden Hughes ** 1:03:01 Thank you, Michael, Michael Hingson ** 1:03:07 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

christmas united states america tv university california texas president friends children australia europe hollywood master house washington las vegas talk germany new york times creator seattle radio new jersey tennessee hospitals bbc harvard mba cnn nbc economics superman blind cbs southern california museum hunt ambassadors thunder michael jackson midnight nebraska attorney stitcher pacific sr windows pierre ebooks yahoo unstoppable holmes folks forces hughes political science beverly hills washington state frank sinatra visionary christmas carol mesa wong aim social security monitor rehabilitation mark cuban tvs irvine american express rutgers university wonderful life reps newport wound db lyndon baines johnson boyle ic hemingway hoosiers armed forces gi joe walden incorporated tom clancy american red cross cowan bellevue oa uc irvine bing crosby uci braille jimmy stewart eagle scouts puget sound bob hope wgn ssi red october national federation weldon lassie dicker groucho marx bill johnson gong show old time radio catalina island pat boone mike wallace jack benny michael h danny kaye tower records mel blanc am fm perry como zuzu friday night live al jolson troyer zork tsi garden grove kbc jack armstrong victorville kpfk sper exxon mobile chief vision officer jimmy durante kpcc federal express scripps college eddie cantor fred allen michael hingson keith scott walter winchell brown derby john roy bill owens phil proctor accounting finance armed forces radio hancock park accessibe american humane association braille institute bill ratner tommy cook thunder dog david osmond janet waldo beverly washburn hero dog awards sperdvac bob lyons yesterday usa

Episode 365 – Unstoppable Tea Time Advocate with Elizabeth Gagnon

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 26, 2025 67:09

Our guest this time, Elizabeth Gagnon is all about Tea. However, as you will discover, her Tea is not mostly the drink although at the end of our episode we do learn she does like some teas. For Miss Liz, as she is most commonly known, Tea stands for Teaching Educational Awareness. Miss Liz's life growing up was hard. She was sexually abused among other things. It took her awhile to deal with all the trauma she faced. However, as she and I discuss, she made choices to not let all the abuse and beatings hold her back. She tried to graduate from high school and was one course away from that goal when she had to quit school. She also worked to get her GED and again was only a few units away when life got in the way. Liz's story is not to her a tragedy. Again, she made choices that helped her move on. In 2010 she began her own business to deal with mental health advocacy using her Tea approach. Liz will tell us all about Tea and the many iterations and changes the Tea model has taken over the years. I am as impressed as I can be to talk with miss Liz and see her spirit shine. I hope you will feel the same after you hear this episode. Miss Liz has written several books over the past several years and there are more on the way. Pictures of her book covers are in the show notes for this episode. I hope you enjoy hearing from this award-winning lady and that you will gain insights that will help you be more unstoppable. About the Guest: Elizabeth Jean Olivia Gagnon, widely known as Miss Liz, is an international keynote speaker, best-selling author, and the visionary behind Miss Liz's Tea Parties and Teatimes. A fierce advocate for mental health, abuse awareness, and peacebuilding, she's recognized globally for her storytelling platforms that empower individuals to share their truths “one cup at a time.” From podcast host to humanitarian, Miss Liz uses her voice and lived experience to ignite real change across communities and cultures. A survivor of extreme trauma, Miss Liz has transformed her pain into purpose by creating safe spaces for open, healing conversations. Her work has earned her prestigious honors, including an Honorary Doctorate for Human Rights, the Hope and Resilience Award, and the World Superhero Award from LOANI. She's been featured on over 200 platforms globally and continues to lead through her podcast, social impact work, and live storytelling events. Miss Liz is also a multi-time international best-selling co-author in the Sacred Hearts Rising and Unstoppable Gems book series. She's the creator of the TeaBag Story Award and the founder of her own T-E-A product line—Teaching Educational Awareness through fashion, wellness, and personal development tools. With every word, event, and product, Miss Liz reminds us that healing is possible, and that we all hold the power to be a seed of change. Ways to connect with Elizabeth: Social media links my two websites www.misslizsteatime.com www.misslizstee.com All my social media links can be found on those sites. Or my linktree. https://linktr.ee/Misslizsteatime About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to talk to Miss Liz Gagnon, and I'm really interested to hear why she likes to be called Miss Liz instead of Elizabeth, or any of those kinds of things. But Liz also has some very interesting connections to tea, and I'm not going to give away what that's all about, but I'll tell you right now, it's not what you think. So we'll, we'll get to that, though, and I hope that we get to have lots of fun. Over the next hour, I've told Liz that our podcast rule, the only major rule on this podcast is you can't come on unless you're going to have fun. So I expect that we're going to have a lot of fun today. And Liz, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We are glad you're here. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:09 Well, thank you so much, Michael for having me. It's an honor to be here. I can't wait to dip into the tea and get everybody curious on what we're going to be spilling. So, Michael Hingson ** 02:19 so how did you get started with the the name Miss Liz, as opposed to Elizabeth or Lizzie or any of that kind of stuff. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:28 Well, I have all those names too, Michael, I'll bet you Michael Hingson ** 02:31 do. But still, Miss Liz is what you choose. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:35 Actually, Miss Liz was given to me at the age of four the same time my cup of tea was given to me at the age of four by my Oma. I that she just had a hard time saying Elizabeth. She was from Germany, so she would just call me Miss Liz. Miss Liz. And then I knew, Oh boy, I better move, right. Michael Hingson ** 02:52 Yeah. If she ever really got to the point where she could say Elizabeth, very well, then you really better move. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:59 Well, she used to call me Elvira too, and I didn't like that name Elvira. Yeah, I don't know how she got Elizabeth from a viral but she used to call me a vira. I think maybe it was because her name was Avira, so I think it was close to her name, right? So, well, Michael Hingson ** 03:17 tell us a little bit about the early Miss Liz, growing up and all that stuff, and little bit about where you came from and all that. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 03:25 Well, I come from a little town called Hearst, Ontario in Canada. It's about maybe 6000 population. I'm going to guess. I was born and raised there until the age of I think it was 31 when I finally moved away for the last time, and I've been in the East End, down by Ottawa and Cornwall and all that stuff since 2005 but My early childhood was a hard one, but it was also a strong one. I A lot of people will say, how do you consider that strong? I've been through a lot of abuse and neglect and a lot of psychological stuff growing up and but I had my tea, I had that little Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole that I could go down once in a while, just to keep me moving and keep me strong, right? So, yeah, my story was, was a hard one, but I don't look at it as a struggle. I look at it as as stepping stones of overcoming Stuff and Being that voice that I am today, Michael Hingson ** 04:29 struggle, if you if you're willing to talk about a struggle, how Elizabeth Gagnon ** 04:35 I was sexually abused by my uncle at the age of four, and then other family members later on, in couple years later down the road, but my uncle was the main abuser, and I became impregnant by my uncle and lost a daughter to stillborn. So there was a lot of shame to the family. Was not allowed to speak at this child for many, many years, I finally came out with her story. After my father passed, because I felt safe, because my family would put me into psychiatric wards when I would talk about my little girls, Michael Hingson ** 05:06 wow, yeah, I, I don't know I, I just have very little sympathy for people who do that to girls, needless to say, and now, now my cat, on the other hand, says she's abused all the time, but that's a different story, Elizabeth Gagnon ** 05:25 right? But I strongly believe, Michael, that we all go through challenges and struggles in life to have our story, to be that voice where we are today, like like yourself, right? Had you not gone through what you went through, you would not have the story that you have Michael Hingson ** 05:42 well, and I think that it also comes down to what you decide to do with the story. You could just hide it, hide behind it, or other things like that. And the problem is, of course, that then you don't talk about it. Now, after September 11, I didn't go through any real counseling or anything like that. But what I did do was I and my wife and I discussed it. We allowed me to take calls from reporters, and literally, we had hundreds of calls from reporters over a six month period. And what was really fascinating for me, especially with the TV people who came. I learned a whole lot about how TV people set up to do an interview. We had a Japanese company with two or three people who came, and that was it up through an Italian company that had 15 people who invaded our house, most of whom didn't really seem to do anything, and we never figured out why were they. They were there. But it's fascinating to see how 06:46 extras, Michael, Michael Hingson ** 06:49 extra, the extras, yeah, but we but it was very fascinating. But the point was that the reporters asked everything from the most inane, dumb question to very intelligent, wise, interesting questions, and it made me talk about September 11. So I don't think that anything could have been done in any other way that would have added as much value as having all those reporters come and talk to me. And then people started calling and saying, We want you to come and talk to us and talk to us about what we should learn from September 11 lessons we should learn talk about leadership and trust in your life and other things like that. And my wife and I decided that, in reality, selling life and philosophy was a whole lot more fun and rewarding than managing a computer hardware sales team and selling computer hardware. So I switched. But it was a choice. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 07:48 Yeah, it is a choice, right? Michael, do you, do you stay in the self pity, or do you rise from it, right? And a lot of people were like, Miss Liz, how can you be so good hearted and open to people that have hurt you so bad? And I always said, since I was a little girl, Michael, I would not give anybody what others gave me. Yeah, you know that that little inner girl in me always said, like, you know what it feels like. Would you like somebody else to feel this way? And the answer is no. Michael Hingson ** 08:16 And with people like your uncle, did you forgive them ever? Or have you, Elizabeth Gagnon ** 08:21 I forgive them for myself. Yeah, I that's how you do. You know, I'm not forgiving you and coming for your Sunday dinner and having roast beef and pretending that it was all fun and games. When I was younger, I had no choice to forgive him and to be around him, because that's how my parents were. You know, don't bring shame to the family and as a minor. Well, you you know you obey your parents and that, and I hate that word, obey I hear. You know, I grew up in a time where you respect your elders, right? Whether they were good or bad, you respected them. It was Yes, sir, yes, ma'am. You know whether they hurt you or not, you just respected these people. Do I? Do I have respect for them today, absolutely not. I pray for them, and I hope that they find peace within themselves. But I'm not going to sit in and apologize to somebody who actually doesn't give to to tune darns of my my apology, right? So my words? Michael Hingson ** 09:23 Well, the the bottom line is that respect is something that has to be earned, and if they're not trying to earn it, then you know, why should you respect? On the other hand, forgiveness is something that you can do and and you do it and you move on, yeah, and Elizabeth Gagnon ** 09:40 a lot of people don't understand the real forgiveness, right? They always tell me, Miss Liz, you haven't forgiven anybody. And I said, Yes, I have, or I wouldn't be where I am today, guys, yeah, if I wouldn't have forgiven those people for myself, not for them. Michael Hingson ** 09:55 Now, see, that's the difference between people and my cat. My cat has no self pity. She's just a demanding kitty, and I wouldn't have her any of that. Oh, she's she's really wonderful. She likes to get petted while she eats. And she'll yell at me until I come and pet her, and then she eats while I'm petting her. She loves it. She's a cutie. She's 15 and going on two. She's great. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 10:17 Oh, those are the cute ones, right? When they stay young at heart, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 10:21 oh, she, she does. So my wife passed in 2022, and now stitch, that's the cat's name, sleeps up next to me. And so that works out well, and she was named stitch when we got her, not quite sure where the name originally came from, but we rescued her. We were not going to keep her. We were going to find her a home because we were living in an apartment. But then I learned that the cat's name was stitch, and I knew that that cat weren't going to go nowhere, because my wife had been a quilter since 1994 you think a quilter is ever going to give up a cat named stitch? So stitch has been with us now for over 10 years. That's great. Oh, wow. And there's a lot of love there, Elizabeth Gagnon ** 11:03 yeah. And, you know, these little connections, right? The Universe sends us, you know, the names and all of that. They send us pets as well as guidance. You know, my little guy is Tinkerbell, and everybody thinks that she's still a kitten. She she's going to be 12 in September, so, but she's still a little tiny thing. She kept the name. She just wants to be a little Tinkerbell. So Michael Hingson ** 11:24 that's cool. What a cute name for a kitty. Anyway, yeah, well, so you, you grew up? Did you go to to college or university? Elizabeth Gagnon ** 11:34 No, I got out of school. I was half a credit away from high school graduation. I became pregnant for the second time, and then I got married at 18. While it was more or less I was I had no choice to get married or or I would have, my father would have took my daughter from me, my oldest, who is alive, and I I had already lost one, and I wasn't losing a second one. So I got married. I did go back to adult school in 2000 I got I was one exam away from getting my GED, and that night, I got a beating of a lifetime from my ex husband, because he didn't want me to get ahead of him, right? So, and then I went back again to try and get my GED three other times, and I was always four points away from getting what I needed to get it. So I was just like, You know what? The universe doesn't want me to have this piece of paper, I guess. Yeah, and I'm not giving up, right? I'm just it's not the right timing and maybe in the future, and it's always the y and s string that gets me the four point question guys on the math exam that gets me every time, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 12:49 oh, well. Well, I always thought that my wife, in so many ways, was was ahead of me, and it didn't ever bother me, and it never will bother me a bit, just things that she would say, creative things, just clever things. She clearly was ahead of me, and I think she felt the same way about me in various ways, but that's what made for a great marriage. And we we worked off each other very well, and then that's kind of the way it really ought to be. Oh boy, ego, ego gets to be a real challenge sometimes, though, doesn't Elizabeth Gagnon ** 13:24 it? Oh yes, it does. So Michael Hingson ** 13:27 what did you do when you didn't go off and end up going to school? Elizabeth Gagnon ** 13:32 I became a mom, and then I did the mom role, right? I grew up in a kind of like a redneck, hillbilly kind of family where the accent kind of kicks in once in a while. You know, it was barefoot and pregnant, you take care of the kids, cook and clean and be the wife and just obey. Once again, that word obey. You know, I grew up with that word a lot, and that's why you don't like that word. I'm surprised I'm even using it tonight. But, yeah, so it was just take care of the family and just live. And eventually, in 2005 a lot of things happened with my children and myself, and we just left and started a new life. In 2006 I felt ill. I was at work, and my left arm went numb, and I thought I was having a heart attack or or that they were checking me since I was little, for MS as well, because I have a lot of problems with my legs. I fall a lot, so we're still looking into that, because I'm in the age range now where it can be diagnosed, you know, so we're so in 2006 I became ill, and I lost feelings from my hips down where I couldn't walk anymore. So I had to make some tough choices, and I reached out to my family, which I kind of. Figured I'd get that answer from them. They told me to get a backbone and take care of my own life and stop because I moved away from everybody. So I turned to the foster care system to help me with my children, and that was a hard choice. Michael, it took me two and a half months. My children sat down with me and said, Mommy, can we please stay where we are? We we have friends. You know, we're not moving all the time anymore. I saw it took a while, and I signed my kids over legal guardianship, but I made a deal with the services that I would stay in the children's lives. I would continue their visits twice a month, and be at all their graduations, be at their dance recital, anything I was there. I wanted my children to know that I was not giving up on them. I just was not able to take care of them in my Michael Hingson ** 15:50 home. Did they accept that? Elizabeth Gagnon ** 15:53 Oh, they did, yeah, and it was a bumpy road. The first five years. Was a lot of adjusting, and we were really close. I got to pick the foster homes, which is not usually the way it works. So and my children went through a lot of abuse as well. My ex husband was very abusive, so I knew that my daughter needed to be around horses. She loved to be around horses, so I found her home that had horses. And my other two children, I found a home where they had music, and music was really important to me, because music is what saved me as well during my journey, right? I turned to music to to get through the hard times. So yeah, the first five years was it was adjustments, and really good, and we got along. And after that the services changed, new workers came in, and then it became a nightmare. There was less visits happening. There was an excuse for a visit. There was oh, well, maybe we can reschedule this, or if we do them at five in the morning, can you show up? And of course, I was showing up at five and going to bed as soon as the visit was done, because I was by myself, so it was a journey, but and I I am grateful for that journey, because today me and my older kids, who are adults, were really close, and we're building that bond again, and they understand the journey that Mom had to take in order for them to have a home. Michael Hingson ** 17:24 They understand it and accept it, which is really obviously the important thing, Elizabeth Gagnon ** 17:30 yeah. But it's been, it's been rocky. Michael, like, you know, we've had our ups and downs. We've had like you You gave up on us. Like, you know, we've had those moments. But my children now becoming adults and becoming parents themselves. They see that. They see what mom had to do, right? Michael Hingson ** 17:47 So are you able to walk now and move around? Elizabeth Gagnon ** 17:51 Oh, yeah, I was. It took about six months for me to learn how to walk again. I still have a limb from time to time. A lot of people call it my penguin little limp, because I limped like a little penguin from time to time, because my what happened is I went through so much trauma in my life constantly that I they diagnosed me with conversion disorder, which is not really well known to to a lot of people. And what it does is it shuts the body down, so I have no control over when my body says it's going to take a break. It just says I'm going on holidays, and you just gotta deal with it. So there's days where I can't walk, right? There's days where I can't talk. It sounds like I'm drunk. My sight is blurred, plus I'm already losing my sight because of genetic jerusa and stuff like that as well. So, but I mean, it took everything in me to push myself. And what pushed me was I had this nurse that was really rough with me, and she would give me these sponge baths, and she would slam me into the chair. And I told her, I said, next week, you will not be slamming me in that chair. And the next week I got up and I took three steps, and then the next couple hours, it was four, five steps, six steps. And I was like, I got this. I know I can do this, but it took six months, Michael, Michael Hingson ** 19:15 but still, ultimately, the bottom line is, no rugby or American football for you. Huh? Nope. Okay. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 19:24 No, not you know, not yet. Anyway, well, maybe you never know, right? I'm still young. I'm only 51 you never know what I'm going to be doing next year. I always tell everybody, Miss Liz is always on an adventure. Michael Hingson ** 19:36 So yeah, but I'm I'm not, I'm not an advocate of going off for rugby or football, but that's all right, do whatever works. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 19:42 Well, I'd like to watch football 19:45 that's different. I'd like to Elizabeth Gagnon ** 19:47 check those boys out once in a while. Well, yeah, but yeah, no, I You just never know where I'm gonna go, right? Only the good universe knows where it's putting me next Michael Hingson ** 19:58 year. So, so what kind. Of work. Did you did you do and, and what are you doing now? How to kind of one lead to the other? Elizabeth Gagnon ** 20:08 Actually, I started my business in 2015 of Miss Liz tea times. It was a fundraising Tea Party, but it started in my home. All I did was have a bunch of ladies over and celebrate strong women. And one lady really liked the layout that I did, and she's like, Can we do this in the community? I was like, I don't know. Let's try it. You know, if we don't try, we don't know. And then I went to the community for, I think, three years, we raised over $5,000 for different services that helped me along the way as well, and places that needed money for serving the community. And then we went virtual. When covid hit. The podcast came along, and I did that for five years, and I burnt myself out doing that. I'm an all or nothing kind of girl, so you either get nothing at all, or you get it all at once. So and and now I'm I've been writing and working on stuff and working on an E commerce business with a new way of serving tea, keeping people on their toes and wondering what's coming next. Uh, children's book is coming out soon. Uh, poultry book. So I've just been busy writing and doing a lot of different things. Michael Hingson ** 21:14 What did you do before 2015 for worker income? Or did you Elizabeth Gagnon ** 21:18 I worked in gas stations, chambermaid kind of stuff like that, something that wasn't too educated, because my ex husband didn't like that stuff, right? Don't try and be a leader. Don't try and be in the big business world. I'm sure he's his head is spinning now, seeing all the stuff that I'm doing, but that's on him, not me. So, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 21:41 yeah, absolutely, alright, let's get to it. Tell me about tea. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 21:49 Well, tea, tea started at four, and it was my OMA that gave me a cup of tea. And everybody thinks it's the beverage. It's not the beverage. We did have a cup of tea. So there is a beverage, there is a beverage involved. But she gave me words, and when I was little, I didn't understand these words. She said, reflect, recharge and release. And she came from the war in Germany, and she said the first thing I had was a cup of tea when I came to Canada, and she just knew that I was going to have a hard life. She knew that the family was kind of, you know, they had their sicknesses and addictions and stuff like that, so she just knew. And I was a quiet kid. I was always in the corner humming and rocking myself and doing stuff by myself. I didn't want to be around people. I was really loner. And she gave me these words, and these words resonated with me for years, and then I just kept hearing them, and I kept hearing Tea, tea. I know sometimes I'd be sitting in a room Michael by myself, and I'd be like, Okay, I don't want a cup of tea right now. Like, I don't know what this tea is like, but it was like the universe telling me that I needed to get tea out there. And I knew it wasn't a beverage. I knew it was. OMA gave me words. So we gotta bring words to the table. We gotta bring the stories to the table. She was giving me a story. She was telling me to stay strong, to recharge, to reflect, release all of the stuff that all of these things take right, to overcome stuff. You know, we have to reflect on the journey that we were put on, and recharge ourselves when we overdo ourselves and release, releasing and letting go of things that we know will never, ever get an answer to. So, Michael Hingson ** 23:32 so you, what did you do with all of that? I mean that those are some pretty deep thoughts. Needless to say. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 23:38 Yeah, so I, I started with the tea time at home, and then when I went to the podcast, I would ask people, What is your tea? And then people were like, Miss Liz, I don't even like tea, like I'm a coffee drinker, or I like a good beer, or I'm just like, Okay, well, you don't even have to like the beverage. Like, it's not about the beverage. It's about our past, our present and our future. That's what the tea is, right? We all have that story. We all have the past, the present and the future, and how we how we look at it, and how we defined our stories, and how we tell our stories. So that's where the T is. Michael Hingson ** 24:10 But you came up with words for the acronym eventually, yes, yes. When did you do that? And what were the words Elizabeth Gagnon ** 24:20 I came up with the words I believe in 20, 2016 2017 and for me, it was teaching. I wanted to be a little kindergarten teacher when I was a little girl. So T was teaching right and teaching myself that the past was not going to define my future story. He was educational. I again. I wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to educate people. I wanted to educate myself. Even though I didn't have those degrees and I didn't go to school and universities, I could still educate myself. I could still reach out. I could still research. I could still find answers myself. And a was awareness, just bringing awareness that our lives are different and. Can change them, right? Nobody can define how our stories end, except for ourselves. Yeah, and the A, A was awareness, and the awareness that, you know, that we can bring any form of awareness, good, bad or ugly, you know, and I bring a little bit of all of it through my stories, and through, through the the overcoming that I've had, right is, it's an ugly story. There were bad things that happened, but there are good results in the end, yeah, because had I not gone through what I went through, Michael, I would not be here having this conversation with you tonight, Michael Hingson ** 25:37 or it'd be a totally different conversation, if at all you're right, absolutely. So you you deal a lot with being a mental health advocate, and that's very understandable, because of all of the things that that you went through. But what kind of really made you decide to do that? Elizabeth Gagnon ** 25:58 Mental health advocate was deep in my blood since 2010 when I went to the pharmacy and gave them all my medication and said, I no longer want any of this because they had me so numbed with antidepressants and painkillers and stuff that I didn't even know I had children. People were telling me, your kids are coming for a visit. And I was like, why are you telling me I have kids? Like I'm a kid myself, like I was going backwards. And I didn't know that I was married, that I had children, but my kids names were and I was just like, like, When is mom and dad coming to get me? Like, I was like, I was so messed up, Michael. And I was just like, I'm not doing this anymore. Um, August 29 of 2009 I brought my medication, and I said, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm taking ownership of my life. I'm being the advocate of my life. I do not need these pills. Yes, it will be hard, yes, I've got trauma, but there's another way of doing this. Michael Hingson ** 26:55 Well, you're clearly a survivor, and you've made choices that demonstrate that by any standards, and obviously a mental health advocate, what do you think are some of the major misconceptions that people have about mental health today that they also just don't seem to want to get rid of? Elizabeth Gagnon ** 27:15 Well, a lot of people have this conception that if you take a pill, it's going to go away. You're healed, you know, and then they get hooked on pills, or they get hooked on this is easy fix, right? Like I said this afternoon in another interview, I did this certain this afternoon. Michael, you know, we get these diagnosis, but doctors don't really sit with us and explain the diagnosis to us, they don't really understand. They don't really explain the side effects of the pills that they're giving us, and then themselves, may not even know the full aspect of those diagnosis. They just put you on a checklist, right? You check A, B, C and D, okay. Well, you have bipolar. You got DCE and you got D ID, like, you know, it's charts, so we're not really taking the time to understand people. And mental health has a long way to go, a lot of a long way to break the stigma as well, because mental illness, most of it, cannot be seen. It cannot be understood, because it's inside the body, right? Michael Hingson ** 28:23 Yeah. And a lot of people don't want to look and analyze that and try to help truly deal with it. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 28:32 Yeah. A lot of people will judge what they don't understand or what they're scared of understanding, Michael Hingson ** 28:39 which is why it's fascinating, and we've had a number of people on unstoppable mindset who believe in Eastern medicine and alternative medicine, as opposed to just doing pills. And it's fascinating to talk to people, because they bring such insights into the conversation about the human body, and many of them have themselves, used these alternatives to cure or better themselves, so it makes perfect sense, but yeah, we still don't tend to want to deal with it. Yeah? Elizabeth Gagnon ** 29:17 Well, anything that's uncomfortable, right? We don't want to really face it, right? We want to run from it, or we want to say, Oh, it's fine. I'll get to it next week, and then next week comes to next month, and next month comes to next year, and you're still dealing with the the same trauma and the same pain, right? Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 29:35 Well, so tell me about tea time with Miss Liz, because you've developed that. You've brought it into existence, and that obviously also helps deal with the mental health stigma. Tell me about that? 29:50 Well, I just Michael Hingson ** 29:51 one question, but, well, Elizabeth Gagnon ** 29:53 I just really wanted to meet people, and I wanted to hear their stories, you know, because it gets lonely once in a while. And you're always telling your story, right? So I wanted to get other stories, but I didn't want to just deal with mental health. I wanted to deal with grief and abuse and things, everything that I've lived with, right? And it all goes back to trauma, like all three of them, abuse, grief, mental health, it deals with trauma in some form. And then I got, I got hooked to a bunch of people that found Miss Liz on on the airwaves, and then connected with you, Michael, you were a guest on Tea Time. Yeah, my last season, and, you know, and I got to go down a bunch of rabbit holes with a bunch of cool people. And tea time was just a place for everybody, just to come and share, share what they were doing and why they were doing it, right? So a lot a lot of the questions that I asked was your younger self way? What? How do you see your younger self to your older self, and why are you doing what you're doing today? And a lot of people are writing books because writing saved them through hard times in life as well. And a lot of mental health back in the 60s, 70s and 80s, were not spoken of. You know, it was really hush hush. Oh, that person's just a rebel, or that person's just a little crazy once in a while, or has too much to drink from time to time. So mental health wasn't really spoken about in those those decades, right? So, Michael Hingson ** 31:27 yeah, and you know, but I hear what you're saying about writing, and you know, I I've written now three books, and I've learned a lot as I write each book, and I think there's a lot of value in it, but also it's more than writing, although writing is is a way to to really do it from the most personal standpoint possible. But as as you've pointed out, talking about it is also extremely important, and talking about whatever, whether it's a bad thing or a good thing, but talking about it as well as writing about it is is valuable, because if we take the time to do all of that, we'll learn a lot more than we think we will well. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 32:13 And there's so many different genres of writing, right? There's horror, there's fiction, there's non fiction, there's children's books, you know, but those are all storytellers too, in a different way. Michael Hingson ** 32:24 Well, they are and and again, it's the the point is, though, that when you take the time to write, you really have to think about it, probably even more than, sometimes, than people, when they just talk about things. And as you're writing, like I said, you learn a lot no matter what genre of writing you're doing, you're putting yourself into it, and that, in of itself, helps educate and teach you Elizabeth Gagnon ** 32:53 absolutely, you know, and I learned so much from a lot of the authors that were on Tea Time, You know, little tricks and little ways of making skits and scenes and characters and names for their characters. And I'd be like, well, where'd you get that name? And they'd be like, I don't know what, just a childhood name that was stuck with me for a long time. I really liked meeting authors that wrote their memoirs or stories, because I'm a person that likes truth. I'm a truth seeker. You know, if it doesn't, it doesn't match up. I'm just like, let me ask you more questions. Let me take you down this rabbit hole a little more. So, Michael Hingson ** 33:35 yeah, well, a lot of people tend to not want to talk about their journey or talk about themselves, and they feel unseen and unheard. How would you advise them? What would you advise them to do? Elizabeth Gagnon ** 33:51 I felt that way for many years. Michael, growing up in the in the situation that I grew up in, right? You did, and I wrote my first book. I was a co author in the Sacred Hearts rising series by compiled by Brenda Hammond in Alberta. And her book, hear me, kept reaching out to me. I kept hearing I didn't even know what the book was. It was just the title was hear me. And I kept saying, I want people to hear me. I want I want to be heard like, I want people to know this, like I'm tired of living in silence, you know, just to keep everybody hush hush, because everybody's comfortable. So I reached out to Brenda, and that's how my writing journey started. Was with Brenda, and I wrote my first chapter in there, and and it just continued to the ripple effect into other books and other anthologies and other people. And I find that the universe is guiding me, like bringing me to the people that I need to see. You know, like meeting you. Michael, like, had I not started a podcast and met Mickey Mickelson, I would have never met you. Michael, so Mm hmm. Michael Hingson ** 34:54 And he continues to to be a driving force in helping a lot of authors. Absolutely. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 35:00 Absolutely, yeah. I'm not even sure how Mickey found me. We had a video call, and the next thing I knew, we were working together for three years, and I got to meet incredible authors through Mickey. Creative edge, and it's, it was one of the driving force of Tea Time with Miss Liz. Michael Hingson ** 35:19 I can't remember exactly how I first heard of Mickey, either, but we we chatted, and we've been working together ever since. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 35:29 Yeah, Mickey is pretty awesome. I still keep my eyes on Mickey, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 35:36 and for those who don't know, Mickey is kind of a publicist. He works with authors and helps find podcasts and other opportunities for authors to talk about what they do and to interact with the world. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 35:50 Yeah. And then I got Yeah. And then I got to meet other people that found me on the airwave, through my press releases and through me speaking at different events. I had other people reach out with their authors and their members and all of that. And I got to meet some really incredible people, like I've had doctors on Tea Time. I've had Hollywood directors on Tea Time. I've had best selling authors like yourself Michael, like, you know, I got to meet some really incredible people. And then I got to meet other people as well that were doing movements and orphanages and stuff like that. We reached over 72 countries, you know, just people reaching out and saying, Hey, Miss Liz, can we have tea? And absolutely, let's sit down. Let's see what? Where you gotta go with your tea? Michael Hingson ** 36:35 So you're in another season of tea time right now. No, Elizabeth Gagnon ** 36:39 I'm not. A lot of people are asking me to come back. I don't know if I will come back. I am working on, like I said, the E commerce drop shipping company for Miss Liz. I'm working on children's book. I'm working on poultry. I'm doing a lot of interviews now for my own books, daytime books and stuff like that. But I am reconsidering coming back maybe for a couple surprise podcast interviews. So Michael Hingson ** 37:07 well, tell us about the E commerce site, the store. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 37:11 Well, that was supposed to be launched on my birthday. I like to give myself birthday gifts because I'm by myself a lot. So two years ago, I gave myself the tea books for my birthday. And this year I was supposed to give the E commerce drop shipping, where we opened a second branch of Miss Liz's tea, where we changed the letter A to E, so T, E, E instead of T, E, A. But if you look at my OMA, who comes from Germany, T in Germany, is tee, so we're still keeping almost T, we're just bringing it in a different way. And Michael Hingson ** 37:45 what does it stand for? Do you have definition Elizabeth Gagnon ** 37:50 of it for the for this T? We have transcend embrace and envision. So transcend beyond the story that we all tell. Embrace Your embrace the journey that you're on and envision your dreams and visions that you can move forward. Michael Hingson ** 38:07 So how's the E commerce site coming? Elizabeth Gagnon ** 38:11 It's coming along. We got a couple of hiccups. I just want to make sure that everything is good to go. We have over 100 different products, and again, we do not have the tea beverage on the site. So you guys can see that Miss Liz is staying true to herself, that it is not about a beverage, but we do have an inner journey happening. So you'll have to check that out. So we have some some candles and some journals, some fashion that Miss Liz has created. So there's a lot of cool things that you'll see, and then we have some collaboration. So if any of the businesses out there would like to collaborate with missus, because I'm big on collaboration, we can maybe come up with a brand or or a journal or something that we can work two brands together to create a bigger inner journey for people Michael Hingson ** 39:02 to enjoy. Is the site up. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 39:05 It was up, and we had to take it down because there were some glitches in it, and I wanted to make sure that it so we're hoping that it's going to be going for June 1. I don't like to set dates, because then I get disappointed, right? If something comes up. So it was supposed to be May 17, guys, and I know that a lot of people were looking forward to it. My children were looking forward to it because of the fashion. And there's something for everyone on on the new website, for children, for parent, for mothers, for fathers, for family. So I wanted to make sure that everybody was included. Michael Hingson ** 39:41 Tell me about some of the fashion things. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 39:44 So we have inner journeys. So I had an eating disorder from the age of 12 Michael, so I had a body image all the time. So I wanted to make sure that we felt beautiful about ourselves. So we have some summer dresses. In there, we have some swimwear. Swimwear was another thing that I didn't really like to wear growing up. I like to be covered a lot. So we and then we have undergarments for people to feel beautiful within themselves. And then we have hoodies and T shirts. But we have messages, little tea messages from Miss Liz. Michael Hingson ** 40:23 Now, are most of these fashion things mainly for women, or are there some men ones on there as well? Elizabeth Gagnon ** 40:28 No, we have men. Men have stories too. So there, there's, I thought. So, yeah, we have men in there. We and we have, I'm really big on having men share their stories, because I have a son. I've said this on many platforms. I would want my son to have the same services that his mother has. So of course, there's a men where in there, there are children's wear in there as well, and there's some puzzles and some diamond art and all of that. So there's a little bit of everything in there. Michael Hingson ** 41:00 So how do you use all of the different mechanisms that you have to promote awareness? I think I know the answer to this, but I'd like you to tell how you're promoting awareness, mental health and otherwise awareness. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 41:15 I think the way that I'm promoting myself and my brand, Michael is just show up and be yourself, believe in yourself and stay true to yourself, be your real tea, you know. And the way that I'm branding and marketing it is, I'm breathing different. So when you hear tea, you think the beverage right away. Well, then when you hear Miss Liz, you know, Miss Liz is not bringing a beverage. So right over the way you're getting different, right? And I like to keep people on your toes, because they think that they might know what's coming, but they don't know same as, like the fashion, where you might think you know what's coming, but then you'll be like, Whoa. This is not what I was thinking. Michael Hingson ** 41:54 And you and you put as you said, sayings and other things on there, which help promote awareness as Elizabeth Gagnon ** 41:59 well. Absolutely, yeah, and it's simple phrases that I use all the time. You tell me, I can't, and I'll show you I can. You know, it lives in you. These are some of the brand messages that I have on my on my merchandise. Also, men have stories too simple phrases. You know that we just gotta make awareness. It's so simple sometimes that we overthink it and we overdo it, that we just gotta keep it simple. Michael Hingson ** 42:28 Mm, hmm. Which? Which make perfect sense? Yeah. So you, you talk a lot about mental health. Have we made improvements in society regarding mental health, and how do we do more to represent marginalized voices? Oh, Elizabeth Gagnon ** 42:50 we got lots of work to do. Michael, we're not even close, you know, we're just on the touch of the iceberg for mental health. We have all these organizations that are competing with each other instead of collaborating. I think we would really make a huge difference if we started working together instead of against each other. Or my service is better than your service. Let's start just collaborating together and working together as one. You know that all this division in the mental health world is what's causing the distractions and the delays in services and and getting help? You know, I think we just need to start working together. And collaboration is not weakness. It's not taking somebody else's product away. It's working together. It's teamwork. And I think we need more teamwork out there. Michael Hingson ** 43:41 We also need to somehow do more to educate the governments to provide some of the funding that they should be providing to help this process. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 43:51 Absolutely, and I think the statuses need to really be looked at. They're not even close. Michael Hingson ** 43:59 Yeah, I I agree there, there's a long way to go to to deal with it, Elizabeth Gagnon ** 44:04 absolutely. You know, just throwing numbers out there to have numbers, but not actually getting the real factual information out there can cause a lot more damage. Michael Hingson ** 44:17 So if you could shift one mindset regarding mental health, what would it Elizabeth Gagnon ** 44:24 be? Oh, good question. Michael, hmm, that we're not alone, okay, because a lot of people with mental illness think they're alone, but we're actually not alone. There's, there's a lot of people out there that are feeling the same thing as us, Michael Hingson ** 44:47 and that's a mindset that people have, that we need to to deal with. We need to change. We need to teach people that the reality. Is there a lot of people, whether they've experienced the same things as as any individual has or not, isn't the issue. But there are a lot of people who do want to be more welcoming, and there are a lot of people who could learn to be more welcoming than they are Elizabeth Gagnon ** 45:18 absolutely Well, I think it starts with a conversation, right? Having these conversations, a lot of people don't want to talk about mental health because they don't want to know the truth. They just want to know what society says, right, what the system say, what the services say, but they're not actually advocating for themselves. I think if we all started advocating for our mental health, we would make the impact and the change as well, Michael Hingson ** 45:45 yeah, but we need to really, somehow develop a collective voice and Absolutely, and that's part of the problem. I know that with the world of disabilities in general, the difficulty is that, although it is probably well, it is one of the largest minorities, maybe the second largest in the world, depending on whether you want to consider women the minority. Although there are more women than men, or men the minority, the reality is that the difficulty is that there are so many different kinds of disabilities that we face and some that we don't even recognize. But the problem is that everyone totally interacts within their own disability to the point where they don't find ways to work together nearly as as much as they can. And it doesn't mean that each disability isn't unique, because they are, and that needs to be addressed, but there's a lot more power if people learn to work together Elizabeth Gagnon ** 46:46 exactly. I'm with you, with that, Michael, because there's so many disabilities that you don't see right, that you don't hear about, somebody will talk about a new diagnosis that nobody knows about or is unaware of, like when I, when I talk about conversion disorder, a lot of people don't know about it, and I'm just like, check it out. You know, I'm a lady that actually has crazy papers, so if I go a little crazy on people, I can get away with it. I got the paper for it, right? So, but the thing is, the doctors, they they need more education as well. They need to be educated as well, not just the society, not just the public, but also the doctors that are working in those Michael Hingson ** 47:29 fields. There's so many examples of that. You know, website access for people with disabilities is a major issue, and we don't teach in most schools, in most places where we where we have courses to instruct people on how to code, we don't really make making websites inclusive and accessible a major part of the courses of study, and so the result is that we don't tend to provide a mechanism where people shift their mindset and realize how important it is to make sure that their websites are fully inclusive to all. It's the same kind of concept. Yeah. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 48:12 Well, I think we all could learn a little bit more, right when we when we all get to this point where we we've learned everything. I think that's where society gets ignorant towards disability, right? You know, living with disability myself, Michael, I've had a lot of people say, Well, you look fine. There's nothing wrong with you. Why? Why? Why you like this? You know, why? And my answer is, why are you that way? Why are you judging something you're not seeing? You know, it's just like in grief, you don't see grief. It lives within us. You don't see abuse. The person is usually living within a home that is told what happens in the home. Stays in a home, you know, or they they try to mask it and hide the real truth, right? Yeah, and that, and that's a form of trauma as well, because we're being told to hush. So then when we start speaking, well, then we start doubting ourselves, right? The self doubt kicks in, oh, maybe I shouldn't say that, or I shouldn't do that, or I shouldn't, you know, be there. So you start to self doubt everything. I did that for many years. I self doubt why I was in a room with a bunch of people, or why I was speaking at that event, or why I wrote in that book, or and then I was just like, You know what? I am enough, and we all are enough, and we all can be seen in a different light. My Michael Hingson ** 49:41 favorite example illustrating some of what you're talking about is that I had a phone conversation with someone once, and arranged for them to come to our apartment. I was on campus at the time, living in an on campus apartment, and the guy came out that afternoon, and I answered the door and he said, I'm looking for Michael Hinks. And I said, I'm Michael. Hanks, and his comment was, you didn't sound blind on the telephone. Now, I've never understood what it means to sound blind, but whatever. Wow. Yeah, it's, it's amazing, you know. And I was polite enough not to say, Well, you didn't sound stupid on the phone either. But yeah, Elizabeth Gagnon ** 50:22 right, that that would, that would be something I would say. Now, back in the day, I was a little mouse, now I'm a lion, and I'm just like, oh, yeah, right. Like, tap for Taft man, like, Michael Hingson ** 50:33 Well, yeah, but there, there are ways to deal with things like that. But it, it still worked out. But it was just an amazing thing that he said, yeah, Elizabeth Gagnon ** 50:43 it surprises me what some people say. Sometimes I'm just like, Really, wow. Michael Hingson ** 50:50 So you've done well, a lot of international speaking. Where have you traveled to speak? Elizabeth Gagnon ** 50:55 I spoke in Detroit in 2020, 20 or 2021, I can't remember the year Michael, but I spoke at the Sean fair tour, and I spoke on tea, of course, and my journey, and my story and my journey on how I'm just a different woman who wants to come to the table and make a difference. I just want to show people that if as long as we're trying, we can make a difference, as long as we're showing up, tired, broke, frustrated, we're making a difference, you know? And that's, that's my message to everybody, is just show up, just be you, and not everybody needs to like you, you know. I'm not everyone's cup of tea, and I don't want to be everyone's cup of tea. Michael Hingson ** 51:38 Mm, hmm. You can only do and should only do what you do, yeah, but Elizabeth Gagnon ** 51:44 And yeah. And then I'll be speaking in October. I just spoke at an event here in Cornwall, in my local area, for empowered to recovery with Jay Bernard. Bernard, and in October, I'll be speaking in North Bay for an elementary student, my sister and she actually went to school with my sister. She actually found me through my books. And she's she runs this youth group, and she'd like me to go speak to the youths on empowerment and and and the tea, of course, Michael Hingson ** 52:16 always worth talking to kids. It's so much fun. Yeah. Yeah. And the neat thing about the most neat thing about speaking to children is there's so much more uninhibited. They're not afraid to ask questions, which is so great. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 52:32 I love questions like, I I love when I talk to people and they have some questions like, What? What is this tea that you keep talking about? And I'm just like, the tea is just the grab guys. It's just to get you hooked. It's like going fishing and catching a good fish, like, I put the hook in the water, and you all come and you join and you have a tea with me. Michael Hingson ** 52:56 But still, children are so much more uninhibited. If, if I deliver a talk, mainly to kids, even kindergarten through sixth or seventh grade, they're much more open to asking questions. Sometimes they have to be encouraged a little bit. But boy, when the questions start, the kids just keep coming up with them, which is so great. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 53:20 Great. It's that ripple effect that first person to break the ice, to ask the first question, and then it just rolls. Michael Hingson ** 53:26 It's a lot harder with adults to get them to to do that. Yeah, and it is. It is, even then, though, when adults start to ask questions, and the questions open up, then we get a lot of good interactions, but it is more of a challenge to get adults to open and ask questions than it is children. And it's so much fun because you never know what question a child is going to ask, which is what makes it so fun, too, because there's so much more uninhibited Elizabeth Gagnon ** 54:01 and the imagination of a child. I love speaking like what my granddaughter, she's four, and the conversations we have about dragons and tooth fairies and and good monsters, because I don't like bad monsters, she knows grandma doesn't like bad monsters, so we talk about good monsters. And it's just the stories, the imagination, that opens up new, new ways of seeing things and seeing life. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 54:29 you've gotten a number of awards, humanitarian awards, and and other kinds of awards. Tell me a little bit about those. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 54:36 Honestly, Michael, I don't know how I got those awards. I was just being myself, and I guess a lot of people nominated me for stuff, and they were just like, you gotta check this. Miss Liz out, you know, and even some awards, I'm just like, Why me? You know, all I did was be myself. I'm grateful for them, I and I appreciate the awards. But. I don't, I don't want to be known for the awards, if that makes any sense. Michael Hingson ** 55:03 Mm, hmm, I understand well, but you've been successful. What does success mean to you? Elizabeth Gagnon ** 55:10 Success means showing up for myself. Michael Hingson ** 55:14 Tell me more about that. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 55:17 Of course. You know, success is different for everybody, right? Some people want the million dollars they want. They want the best seller they want. You know, they want the big business. They want the big house. For me, success is just showing up. Growing up. Nobody showed up for me. So I knew at a young age I had to show up for myself, and that was my success story. Was just showing up. There's days I really don't want to be here. I'm just tired of showing up, but I still show up tired, you know. So that's my success story, and I think that's going to be my success story until the day I die. Michael is just show up. Michael Hingson ** 55:58 Well, there's a lot to be said for showing up, and as long as you do show up, then people get to see you, right? Yeah, which is, which is the whole point. And again, as we talked about earlier, that's the choice that you made. So you decided that you were going to show up and you were going to be you, and you also talk about it, which is, I think, extremely important, because so many people won't, not a criticism. But last year, I spoke at the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival in April of 2024 and it was a and every year they hold this festival, and it's a celebration of American history. One of the people there was a secret service agent who rode in the car right behind JFK when he was assassinated, and it took him 45 years before he could talk about it. It was that traumatic for him, and he just wasn't able to move on. Eventually he was able to talk about it, and he was at the festival, as I was last year, and did speak about it. But it's it is hard, it is a major endeavor and effort to make the choice to show up, to to face whatever you have to deal with and move on from it or move on with it. I, you know, I talk about Karen, my wife passing, and I will never say I move on from Karen. I continue to move forward, but I don't want to move on. I don't want to forget her Absolutely. And there's a big difference between moving on and moving forward. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Michael, no, that's it. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 57:45 You know, we look at life differently, right? Different perspectives and, and that's the whole thing with the T is looking at life differently. We all have a past, we all have a present, and we all have a future, right? And it's how we look at our past. Do we stay stuck in our past, like a lot of people are, mislead your in the past? No, I'm not. I speak of the past, but I'm not in the past. I'm in the present moment, and my trauma is real and it's raw, and I'm dealing with it, and I'm healing from it. And the future, I don't know where the future's taking me. I just buckle up and go for the adventure and see where it takes me. If it means writing another book or it means taking a trip or getting a job in a third world country, that's where I go. I'm, you know, moving forward from all of the trauma that I've lived through. I don't want to forget it. Mm, hmm. A lot of people like I would you change anything? No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't change a single thing. Michael Hingson ** 58:45 There's a difference between remembering and being aware of it and being bitter and hating it. And I think that's the important part, Elizabeth Gagnon ** 58:53 yeah. And speaking of the past is not it's not a bad thing. It because the past is part of us, right? We were little kids once upon a time like there, you know, not everything was all bad. There was good moments. You know, there was more bad times for me than there was good, but there were good moments. I had good memories of spending with my grandparents on the farm and, you know, playing in the wrecked up cars and pretending I was a race car driver and stuff like that, you know, playing in the mud, making mud pies, putting them in the oven. You know, these were good memories that I have, you know, so those are what I hold on to. I hold on to the good stuff. I don't hold on to that heavy stuff. Michael Hingson ** 59:33 Well, at least at this point, what do you see in the future for Miss Liz Elizabeth Gagnon ** 59:39 travel? I so want to travel. I, you know, I've traveled the world, well, 72 countries, in this rocking chair. I would like to take this rocking chair in person. I would like to have a stage. I would like to have people come and talk and share their stories on a miss Liz's platform stage. That is the goal for Miss Liz. Michael Hingson ** 1:00:01 To travel and to really meet people from a lot of new and different places, Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:00:07 absolutely, and meet all the guests I had on Tea Time. That is one of my goals. So when the universe gets on my good side, maybe I'll be traveling and meeting you face to face one day, Michael, Michael Hingson ** 1:00:18 or we'll travel up there when, when we can, I know right now there are many challenges because of our governments putting roadblocks in the way. I've applied to speak at several events in Canada, and I've been told right now, well, the political situation, political situation is such that we can't really bring anybody in from the United States. And, you know, I understand that. I I think that there's so much to add, but I also understand that they don't want to take those chances, and that's fine. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:00:48 Yeah, we've been told the same, no traveling, vice versa. There's so, you know, it will calm itself down. We just got to give it some Michael Hingson ** 1:00:57 time. It will, you know, it isn't going to go on forever, and we'll just have to deal with it. Well, if you had the opportunity to go back and give your younger Miss Liz some advice, what would it be? Drink More tea. Drink More tea of the liquid kind or the other kind. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:01:17 No. Drink the real stuff like drink, the beverage, drink the real stuff. Like, you know, speaking of tea all the time, you know, my favorite tea is jasmine tea. I wish I could drink more jasmine tea, but when I drink jasmine tea, it brings it brings back a memory of my Uma, and it it's hard for me so but drink more tea, like, actually sit down and have more conversations with OMA and see what else OMA had in Michael Hingson ** 1:01:44 the back there for her. Yeah. Well, there you go. Well, I, I must say, I've never been a coffee drinker, but I got converted to drinking tea years ago, and I've been doing it ever since. My favorite is PG Tips, black tea, and I can get it from Amazon, so we do it. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:01:59 That's a good one too. Yeah, I'm not a real big tea drinker, but guys, I do know a little bit about tea. Michael Hingson ** 1:02:06 Well, I drink it more because it's a hot drink and it's got less calories than hot chocolate. Otherwise, I would be drinking hot chocolate all the time. But after September 11, I tend to clear my throat a lot, so drinking hot beverages helps, and I've just never liked coffee like I've learned to like tea, so I drink tea. Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:02:26 Yeah. What's for you? Yeah, he's good for you. Look what it did to me. It made me who I am today. Michael Hingson ** 1:02:32 There you are in so many ways. Well, I want to than

Episode 363 – Unstoppable PR Expert and Entrepreneur with Kent Lewis

tv love new york california founders canada children new york city ai google school los angeles house washington coach pr dogs talk entrepreneur french germany canadian new york times michigan executive director seattle toronto psychology oregon hospitals portland harry potter press massachusetts wall street blind southern california pc casa mine vancouver starbucks magazine seo hire montreal ambassadors thunder active wanted tampa stitcher bc kent east coast sold congratulations ebooks nonprofits committee unstoppable daughters creative directors pacific northwest cmo rest in peace accessibility ratings signed finnish jk rowling rutgers university seth godin scandinavian world trade center thomas edison cad larry king thesis ran flintstones american red cross inevitably bellingham xerox jerry maguire maury alaska airlines anvil portland state university microsoft word national federation san rafael larry king live purple cow western washington university big brothers michael h ryan wilson big sisters pr expert northern european pike place market lee iacocca exxon mobile chief vision officer organization eo federal express scripps college buzzsumo jim dale steam room digital summit domain authority smartbrief michael hingson portland business journal accessibe i yeah business2community ink magazine american humane association thunder dog kent lewis hero dog awards sempdx

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 19, 2025 67:43

Kent Lewis grew up in the Seattle area. In college he studied business and marketing. After college he went to work for a PR agency but left to go into the digital marketing industry in 1996. Kent has formed several marketing agencies during his career. He is quite up front about challenges he faced along the way as well as what he learned from each issue he faced. Kent's philosophy about community is quite interesting and well worth adopting. He believes very much in giving back to his community. Today his day job is serving as “Executive Director of NextNW, a non-profit trade association that unifies the Pacific Northwest advertising & marketing professionals interested in professional development, sharing best practices, and collaborative problem-solving”. Kent gives us many relevant and timely business insights. I hope you agree that this conversation gives us some good business lessons we all can use. About the Guest: Kent Lewis, Executive Director, NextNW Lewis is currently Executive Director of NextNW, a non-profit trade association that unifies the Pacific Northwest advertising & marketing professionals interested in professional development, sharing best practices, and collaborative problem-solving. He is also Founder of pdxMindShare, Portland's premier career community, with over 12,000 LinkedIn Group members. With a background in integrated marketing, he left a public relations agency in 1996 to start his career in digital marketing. Since then, he's helped grow businesses by connecting his clients with their constituents online. In 2000, Lewis founded Anvil Media, Inc., a measurable marketing agency specializing in search engine and social media marketing. Under his leadership, Anvil has received recognition from Portland Business Journal and Inc. Magazine as a Fastest Growing and Most Philanthropic Company. After selling his agency in March 2022, he became a CMO for the acquiring firm. Beyond co-founding SEMpdx, Lewis co-founded two agencies, emailROI (now Thesis) and Formic Media. As a long-time entrepreneur, he's advised or invested in a host of companies, including PacificWRO, Maury's Hive Tea and ToneTip. Lewis speaks regularly at industry events and has been published in books and publications including Business2Community, Portland Business Journal, and SmartBrief. For twenty years, he was an adjunct professor at Portland State University, and has been a volunteer instructor for SCORE Portland since 2015. Lewis tours nationwide, averaging 30 speaking engagements annually, including a regular presenter role with the Digital Summit conference series. Active in his community, Lewis has been involved in non-profit charity and professional trade organizations including early literacy program SMART Reading and The Entrepreneurs' Organization (EO). Industry recognition and awards include Portland Business Journal's Top 40 Under 40 Award, American Marketing Association Oregon Chapter Marketer of the Year, and Top 100 Digital Marketing Influencers by BuzzSumo. Ways to connect with Kent: Links https://kentjlewis.com/ And LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kentlewis/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today. We get to chat with an award winning entrepreneur, and he just told me a really interesting factoid. We'll have to, we'll have to talk about it, just because it is about one of the most fascinating things I've heard in quite a while, and a very positive thing. But I'm not going to give it away, because I'm going away, because I'm going to let him talk about it, or at least start the discussion. I'd like you all to meet Kent Lewis. Kent has been an entrepreneur for a while. He helps other entrepreneurs. He works in the non profit arena and does a variety of different kinds of things. And rather than me telling you all about it, you could read the bio, but more important, meet Kent Lewis and Kent, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Kent Lewis ** 02:05 It's, it's a pleasure to be on the show. Thank you for having me, sir. Michael Hingson ** 02:10 Now where are you located? I'm based in Portland, Oregon, yeah. So you're, you are up up the coast, since I'm in Southern California. So yes, you know, one of these days I'll be up that way again. Well, Alaska Airlines will fly me up there. Kent Lewis ** 02:27 Yeah, totally right. Yeah, good Michael Hingson ** 02:29 to have you, unless you come this way first. But anyway, well, I'm really want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And why don't we start? I love to do this. Tell me a little bit about kind of the early Kent growing up and all that stuff. Kent Lewis ** 02:44 Yeah, so I grew up in Seattle, Washington. I think something that's influenced me is that my dad was is, or is, a retired architect. And so there was always this design esthetic, and he was an art collector enthusiast, I should say. And so I was always surrounded with art and mid century, you know, furniture and there's just style was a it was a thing. And then my mom was always in when she was a social worker and went into running nonprofits. And so I grew up around that as well of just giving back. So if you ever heard that common term, you know, learn, earn, return. Start your life you're learning, then you're maximizing your earnings during your career, and then when you in and around later in life, you start giving back, right, returning, right. And I learned from my mom that you never stop you never stop learning. You never stop returning. And my my mantra as an entrepreneur is never stop earning right? So, so I've always been giving back and donating my time, and I've always appreciated sort of good design and well thought out things. And I think that's influenced my career in marketing and as an entrepreneur, business owner, and now more of an advisor, Coach type, Michael Hingson ** 03:59 well, so growing up in Seattle, did you visit pikes market very often? Kent Lewis ** 04:04 My dad used to work right, right, like, two blocks away. So I would go there all the time. In fact, I remember when there was just one Starbucks when I was a kid, yeah, at Pike Place Market, and they used to sell large chunks of delicious, bitter sweet chocolate, I know, you know, in the behind the counter, and it was a very hi and you could smell the teas and all that. It was a very different experience, very cool place. And so, yeah, love Michael Hingson ** 04:33 the pipe waste market. I understand that they don't throw the fish anymore. No, they do. They do. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Maybe it was just during the pandemic that they decided not to do that, but Kent Lewis ** 04:44 think you're right about that. But they definitely, they, they're still, it's still a major attraction. It's too big of a thing to stop. Michael Hingson ** 04:51 Wow, that's what I was thinking. And that's just way too big of a thing to to stop. My probably not the greatest fish fish catcher, I've been there, but I. I never caught a fish. Kent Lewis ** 05:02 Yeah, that's only got, like, one or two in my life. And I don't, I don't do it much, but Michael Hingson ** 05:08 Well, well, that's the place to go anyway. So where did you go to college? Kent Lewis ** 05:13 I went to Western Washington University in Bellingham, uh, just 1020 minutes from the Canadian border, because, in part, when I was in school, it was a 19 year old drinking age in Canada, so I was 20 minutes away from my earlier drinking age. Turns out, I grew up going to Vancouver, BC quite often for the soccer exchange program when I was a real young youngster. So I fell in love with Vancouver, and as I've had been fortunate enough to travel the world a bit, I realized that it was one of my favorite cities, and it still is. It is such a global, amazing egalitarian, like, no matter your color, race, creed, you could be a millionaire or you could be a bus driver. There was no not the same class, classism you see in other US cities or around the rest of the world. It's truly an amazing and it's also, of course, beautiful Michael Hingson ** 06:04 there. I found that true throughout Canada, and I've enjoyed every Canadian city I've ever been to. One of my favorites is really going to Toronto. I was always impressed as to how clean it really was. Kent Lewis ** 06:17 You know, that's true. I've been there a couple times in conferences, and I found it to be clean and impressive, you know, and then, but my, one of my favorite, other cities I only spent overnight, there was Montreal. What a beautiful, beautiful place, absolutely stunning. I Michael Hingson ** 06:35 spent two days in Montreal once when I was selling some products and turn the TV on at 1131 morning that I was there and watched the Flintstones in French. That was unique. That was unique. Cool. How cool is that? Yeah, it's awesome. That was kind of fun. But, you know, so you, you went to college. What did you major in? Kent Lewis ** 06:58 I majored in business with a marketing concentration, which is great because I ended up doing marketing for a career, and for 22 years ran my own agency, or my own business, basically. Michael Hingson ** 07:10 So what did you do when you got out of college? Kent Lewis ** 07:14 I went immediately into the world of public relations agency life. I always wanted to be a found out after college that I, what I really wanted to be was a copywriter, you know, writing ads. I just coolest thing as a kid. I just didn't know that. It's, I didn't realize what it, what it you have to go to Ad School. You can't, you can't graduate regular college and become a copier. At least you weren't able to when I was, you know, back in the mid 90s. So I started in PR because it sounded hard to pitch the media and try and get them to say what you want them to say about your brand, your client and your brand. And that did me well, because when I got in from went from PR in 94 to digital marketing, SEO, search engine optimization 96 my PR background was extremely helpful. You know, in in that, in that whole world. So because doing PR builds Domain Authority, which builds your rankings in Google, and the rest is history. So, so it was very helpful. It gave me a bit of an edge. And then my business background meant I was better equipped to to go from doing the work to managing people, they're doing the work, to doing my own thing, you know, and running a instant running team, I was running a business. So that was super cool. You Michael Hingson ** 08:38 know, it's interesting. I've especially because of the World Trade Center, but not only, but before it as well, I learned a lot about dealing with the press. And I've, I've watched a lot of press interviews today, and it's, it's amazing how often and then people have said that this is the way you should do it. No matter what the press person asks you, you answer with the with the answer you really want to give, whether you answer their questions or not. And I think that's an interesting approach, and I suppose it can be positive, but especially for for politicians who don't want to answer the tough questions. But I I know that for me, I've always tried to structure my answers in such a way that it gets them to take the question that they originally asked that I might sort of answer and reframe it so that I will answer a lot of times that, for example, talking about blindness and blind people, there are just so many misconceptions about it and and all too often, like first time I was on Larry King lives, Larry was asking questions about guide dogs. And he said, Now, where did you get your guide dog? And I said, from San Rafael, California. He said, well, but the but the main. School is a new is in Michigan, right? And I said, No, it's a different organization. And what we learned after doing that interview was that the way to deal with Larry was to program him and send him questions in advance with answers. Then he did a lot better, because the reality is, he didn't really know necessarily the answers in the first place. It's just amazing how you know how a lot of times it's just shallower. The Press tends to over dramatize. But I appreciate what you're saying about marketing and PR, I've done so much of that over my lifetime, and for so many reasons, in so many ways, I know exactly what you're talking about. Kent Lewis ** 10:47 Yeah, yeah. That's, yeah, it's, it's a fascinating world that I've, that I've, you know, been live, living and working in. And I, yeah, I'm impressed, yeah, Larry King Live. That's pretty cool. And, you know, hopefully you've helped people just side note, you know, get a clear understanding of what it is, what it is both like to be blind and then how you navigate this world successfully, as if you're, you know, fully sighted. You know, Michael Hingson ** 11:18 well, one of the things that I actually learned over the last couple of years is something that I've actually written an article and had it published about, and that is that we've got to change our view of disabilities in general. People always say, well, disability is a lack of ability. And I say, and I always say, No, it's not. And they say, Well, yes, it is. It begins with dis. And I said, then, how do you equate that with disciple, discern and discrete? For example, you know they begin with D is the reality is, disability is not a lack of ability. You think it is. But I've added to that now when I point out that, in reality, every person on the planet has a disability, but for most people, their disability is covered up. Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb, or at least we give him credit for it back in 1878 so for the last 147 years, all we've done is spent so much time improving on the technology that provides light on demand, which just covers up your disability, but it's still there. And I realized that one day I was at a hotel in Los Angeles at three in the afternoon when we had a power failure, and everybody started to scream, even down in the lobby, when they had all these nice big windows that were letting in all sorts of light, but it wasn't giving them the light that they wanted and the amount that they wanted, and people panicked. So I realized then, oh, well, now the reality is they're light dependent, which is as much a disability as my light independence is. It's just that it manifests itself differently, and there are a whole lot more light dependent people than light independent people. But we've got to really change our definition and how we view it. So Kent Lewis ** 12:58 that's really insightful. It's good to think about. Michael Hingson ** 13:01 Yeah, it's kind of fun. But, you know, so, so where did you, where did you go off and go to work in the in the marketing world? So you did? You didn't go to Copyright School? Or did you? No, no, Kent Lewis ** 13:13 I just know. I once I talked to the creative director at this agency in Seattle where I did my first internship. He's like, Yeah, you'd have to go back to art school. And I was like, what school I just finished? So, you know, it didn't really matter. And we So, with that said, we, you know, I moved into PR, and then I moved to down to Portland from Seattle, because I could actually get a paying job because the internship I did three months full time, virtually, basically no pay, I found a low paying job instead in Portland. So I moved I only knew one person here in Portland, my cousin. She's still here. We both have families now, and I know a lot more people, but I basically have, since moving here to do my second agency job. I've been, I've been a part of 10 agencies in my career. I've been, I founded two, co founded two, fired from three and exited the four that I created, or co, co founded, basically. And so right now I have a consultancy. I could say that's my 11th agency, but I don't even really count it as an agency. I'm just a fractional CMO, you know, marketing advisor at this point, just a few hours a month, because my my day job as of January, is running a nonprofit called next northwest.org which is a it's a trade organization for marketing and advertising and creative community, the creative services world. And it has 119 year history in Portland. And now it's, it's now expanded to five states and into Canada. And so I've got this I'm working. I manage a board of, you know, decent sized board, and a decent sized advisory. Committee that I created, and just the last couple months, and we do learning events for the creative community and networking events and celebrations, like, you know, awards, award shows to celebrate the work. So that's kind of my day job. And then I also speak and write a lot you and I share a passion for for education and learning and sharing knowledge. And so I've been, I've probably averaged 25 speaking engagements a year for the last 20 years, and last year was 30. For instance, I fly yours, mentioned your your travel. I'm flying to Tampa on Sunday to present on Monday, on a panel about AI in the senior care space, for instance. And then I come back and I, I, you know, got it. I got one or two more. But I, you know, I typically do a dozen fly flying gigs, and then I do a lot of webinars and local gigs as well. Michael Hingson ** 15:55 So what are you what are you going to say? What are you going to say about AI in the senior care space? Kent Lewis ** 16:01 That's a great question. So what my focus as a marketer is, here's how you can use AI to streamline and automate and maintain or improve quality. So it's not meant to it's not a secret hack, cheat code to lay people off. It's a It's get more out of your current resources, basically, and do more with less, and do it more effectively. That's kind of, that's, you know, that's my, what I'll be talking about is the how you know how to use it for research, ideation, content creation, content editing, reporting, synthesizing information, customer service, that kind of thing. So I only have, you know, it's a panel event, so I'm only doing like a 10 to 15 minutes part, and then there are other presenters doing their part, and then we have a little Q and A, usually, I'm a sole presenter on whatever topic, usually digital marketing or employee engagement, which is what I got passionate about. Once I sold my agency. After 22 years, I became an employee at that the agency that acquired my company, and I was immediately underwhelmed and disappointed in what it was like to be an employee, and wanted to fix it. So that's what I had been focusing on when I given a choice. I want to evangelize. You know, what I learned from my experience, and I've done a good amount of research, and, you know, two weeks ago, I presented in Portland on the topic to entrepreneurs. Then the next day, I flew to Denver and did the same presentation to a group of agency owners. And then the next day, I did a webinar for similar group of entrepreneurs, you know, so three versions, three days in a row, a 3060, and 90 minute version. So, Michael Hingson ** 17:42 pretty fun. Yeah. So how many books have you written? Kent Lewis ** 17:47 Ah, I knew you'd say that so or ask that. I have not written any books, but I have, darn but I've written, you know, probably 200 articles. I could easily AI them into some sort of book, if I wanted to. You know, I went from writing 80% to 90% of my art content was on digital marketing for the first 20 years. And then the last 10 years, I focused almost exclusively on writing about entrepreneurship and and business ownership, leadership and employee intention, retention, engagement. And, you know, so I mostly syndicate my articles, like business journals, occasionally in Ink Magazine, etc. So if I were to write a book, it would be about the business side of things, instead of the second, I would write something about digital marketing. Not only am I no longer an expert, and consider myself an expert relative to others, those books are outdated the second they're printed, right? So, so it doesn't make sense to really write a book on digital marketing, and everything's already been said, etc. So, so if I wrote a book, it would be probably more on the employee engagement side versus anything. But I will say that I don't know if you know who Seth Godin is. He's the number one marketing blogger in the world. He's written many best sellers, Purple Cow, permission, marketing, etc. He's remarkable guy. And I had was fortunate to talk with him and then meet with him over lunch in New York City 15 years ago. And he said, after our two hour lunch, he charges $75,000 for speaking engagement. So it gives you a sense of who he is. He has for for 20 years. And so he said, Kent, you've got a book in you. I was like, I wish you hadn't said that, because now I don't want to, I don't want to disappoint him, right? So there you go. Michael Hingson ** 19:31 Well, if you write one at some point, you have to send us a picture of the cover and we'll stick it in the show notes whenever. Yeah, that sounds great, but yeah, I you know, I never thought of writing a book, but in 2002 we went to the AKC Eukanuba canine championship dog show in Orlando. It was in December, and among other people I met there. Here I met George Berger, who was at that time, the publisher of the American Kennel Club Gazette, and he said, You ought to write a book. And I went, why? Well, because you you have a great story to tell. You should really write a book. Well, it took eight years and a lot of time sitting in front of Microsoft Word to get notes down, but eventually I met someone named Susie Flory who called because she was writing a book called Dog tails. And it was a story of what she wanted to write stories of, actually, 17 different dogs who had done some pretty interesting and miraculous things. And she wanted to write a story about my guide dog at the World Trade Center, Roselle. And she said, Tell me your story, if you would. And I did. And when we were done, there was this pause, and then she said, You need to write a book. And since I've written books, I'll help you. And a year later, underdog was published, and it became a number one New York Times bestseller. So that was pretty cool. Kent Lewis ** 21:01 That's fantastic. Congratulations. Very impressive. Michael Hingson ** 21:04 And then last year, well, in 2013 we published a children's book called running with Roselle, but more adults by a thing kids, because it's not a picture book, but it tells the story of me growing up and Roselle growing up, and how we met, and all that. So it isn't really as much a World Trade Center book. But then last year, we wrote, live like a guide dog. And the intent of live like a guide dog is to say to people, look fear is all around us, and so many people just allow themselves to be paralyzed, or, as I say, blinded by fear, so they can't make decisions. They don't learn how to control it. But if you learn how to control fear, you can use fear as a very powerful tool to help you stay focused, and you'll make better decisions. So we use lessons I learned from my guide dogs on my wife's service dog to write, live like a guide dog. And so it is out there, and it's it's a lot of fun, too. So you know, it isn't the easiest thing to write a book, but I would think you have a book in you, and you should, well, I Kent Lewis ** 22:03 appreciate that vote of confidence. And hey, I mean, you did it, and you had an amazing story, and you've done it multiple times. Actually, it's great inspiration for me. Michael Hingson ** 22:16 Well, I'm looking forward to reading it when it comes out. You'll have to let 22:20 us know. Yeah, will do so Michael Hingson ** 22:23 you at some point, switched from being an employee to being an entrepreneur. How did that all happen? Why? Why did you do it? Or what really brought that about? Kent Lewis ** 22:38 Well, I kept getting fired. Michael Hingson ** 22:40 So why'd that happen? Kent Lewis ** 22:42 Yeah, so that's the fun part. So I I've never been fired for cause like a legit clause. I'm a high powered, high performer, and so I actually, that's why. So the first time I was fired was by the guy that invited me to co found an agency. His name was Ryan Wilson. He was my he was my boss. And then he was fired by our larger agency. He ran a team that I worked on. I worked for him. I was inspired by him. I I was mentored by him. I thought the world of him. So when he came to me three months after he got fired, it was about, it's always about a girl. So he he basically, he got divorced. And so this other woman, they met at the office, and they were soul mates, and they he had to clean up his life. And he did, and he said, I've got an agency die. I've got two clients ready to sign. I need key employees, and you're one, one of them, then I would hope you would join me. I said, No, the first time he got his act together. I said, yes, the second time, and that. So I we built an agency together with, you know, we start with six people. I brought in two other people and another gal that ran the PR side. I was running the digital side. She brought in somebody said we had six of us on day one, and a year later, we didn't have a formal share shareholder agreement for our percentage of the company that went from being worth zero to being worth a few million dollars, and we felt that we should have something in writing, and before he could, we could get something formally in writing. My, my other partner, she, I didn't really want to do the business with her, but I didn't really have a choice. I want to do the business with him. She said, I'm asking for more equity. I said, Okay, I feel like that's fair. I think we've earned it, but, and I'll, I'll be there with you, but I wouldn't have done this if she hadn't said, I'm going in. Are you with me? So when I we asked, she asked me to make the ask. I wasn't necessarily prepared or thinking about it, and it really offended him. He was really mad, and he was playing to fire her, and by me teaming up with her, he felt, you know, slight. And he fired us both, and the next week, I started anvil, my agency, Anvil Media, that I ran for 22 years, I did a couple other starts, one with a college friend and a guy I had met at that that at one of the first, one of the earlier agency agencies I'd worked at. He and we, he and I and my college buddy started an email marketing agency in 02 and then I decided, well, this isn't for me, but I now learn it's not that scary to hire employees. So then I started hiring employees at anvil and late 03 and so I ran anvil with employees for, you know, 20 years. Two of those first two years were just me and some contractors and and then, oh, wait, I started a second agency because I needed a more affordable solution for my partners in small business called Formic media. Ran that for five years before I merged it with with anvil. But in between, I was also fired. When I first started anvil, I was it was just a hang of shingle in 2000 to do some consulting, but I wanted a full time gig, and a year later, I had an opportunity to run my my team from the agency. I was fired from that company. That agency was sold to another agency for pennies on the dollar. And when my old boss died, rest in peace, we hadn't really cleared the air yet, which is it still is one of my greatest regrets. You know, for nine months we didn't talk, and then he passed away. Everybody peace, not before he passed away, I was able to get, yeah, his his soul mate. They weren't married yet, but they were going to get married. She told me that two weeks before he died, he expressed regrets and how we had ended the relationship, how he had fired me, and he was looking forward to reconnecting and re engaging our friendship. And so that made that meant the world to me. I had a lot of peace in knowing that, but I so the first the second place I got fired was this agency again about a girl. So the first time was a girl telling me, you need to ask the boss for more money or more equity. And I did, and that offended him. And the second time was my girlfriend at the time, who's who moved over from that agency to the new agency where my my old boss died before he could really start there. She was dating on the side the Creative Director at that agency, and he'd been there over 20 years. And so when I started there, I saw something was up, and I was like, Is there anything going on? She's like, No. And so eventually I just broke up with her anyway, because I just it wasn't working, even if she wouldn't admit that she was having a side relationship. But I was eventually fired because he was a board, you know, he was on the board. He was, he wasn't my boss, per se, but he was one of the senior partners, and they just wanted me out. You know, she might have money. Wanted me out. He definitely wanted me out. So that was the second time I got fired. And then the third time I got fired was it kept the stakes get given, getting bigger. When I sold my agency 14 months later, they fired me, really, not to this day, not for any cause. It's that they asked me to take an 80% pay cut a year into my buyout, and I and then I they were going to close my Portland office, which I was, I own the building, so I didn't want to lose my own myself as a tenant, so I offered to reduce my rent 30% so I basically, for two and a half months, worked for free for this agency that had bought my agency. So they were making payments to me. I was carrying the note, but they they couldn't. A year later, they're like, I'm sorry. So they a year later, I took a pay cut for two and a half months, and when I asked them, you know, when am I getting back to my pay? They said, Well, you know, we can't guarantee. We don't have a path for you back to your full pay. And I was like, Okay, well, then I told my wife, let him inform them that we're going to go back to, we are going to go back to our full rack rate on our rent. And when I, when we notified them, they they totally, they totally fired me. So they canceled the lease, and they fired me, and so they so it. And you know, I, my team was slowly being dismantled, a 10 of us, 11 of us, I guess 10 or 11 us went over, and within a year, there were only two wait. Within two years, there was only one person left on my team. So it was a really sad, sad experience for me. It wasn't as hard to sell my business as I thought. It wasn't as hard, you know, just emotionally, it wasn't as hard to sunset my brand after 22 years. Wasn't easy, but it was way easier than I thought. What was hard for me was watching them was was closing the office. It broke my heart and and then watching them dismantle my team that I spent, you know, two decades building, most of that team was within 10 years, the last 10 years, last even five years of of our business. Us. There was a relatively new team, but we were so tight, and it was just heartbreaking. So, you know, Michael Hingson ** 30:09 yeah, wow. So what do you think was your biggest mistake in running your own agency? Kent Lewis ** 30:19 That's a great question. I think the biggest, biggest mistake was not understanding the Hire great people and get out of the way. Lee Iacocca, you know, to paraphrase him, I hired great people and I got out of their way. But what I didn't do was make sure they had all the proper training, alignment of core values that they had, there was enough trust between us that they could come to me with they were struggling or failing. Apparently, I was a fairly intimidating figure for my former my young recruits, but most of that time, up until the last five years, I always had a senior VP my right hand. I hired her with the attention that she might take over the business someday, she was totally creating a wall between me and my employees, and I didn't know it until 2012 and so, you know, I had 10 years to try to undo what she had created the first 10 years, basically of a fear based management style, so that that didn't help me, and I didn't believe it. I didn't really see it. So then I rebuilt the company, and from the ground up, I blew it up in 2013 so 10 years after of having employees, 13 years of having the business, I completely dismantled and blew it up and rebuilt it. And what did that look like? It started with me just not wanting to go to work in the building, and I realized I can't quit because I'm the owner, so I have to fix it. Okay? I don't mind fixing things. I prefer to fix other people's problems instead of my own, but I really a lot of people do, right? Yeah. So I wrote a credo, basically, what would it take for me? What are, what are it got down to 10 truths, what? What are the truths that I need to go into work and that others around me, co workers, team members, need to also agree on so that we can work together successfully. So it went from being about clients to being about the team and being about accountability. And you know, it was so it was so decisive. It was so radical for my current team that had been with me five to 10 years of they lose clients, I get more clients. And I eventually told them, I can't replace clients as fast as you're losing them. It's not a sustainable business model, so you need to be accountable for your actions and your decisions. That's the new anvil. You and you're out. I gave them 72 hours to think about it and sign it. Signed literally to these credo. It's not a legal document, it's just a commitment to credo. And half the team didn't sign it, and they quit. And then within 12 months, the rest of the team either quit or we've I fired them because they did not fit in the new anvil. And it's funny because everybody else that I brought in didn't even it didn't even register. The credo was so unremarkable to them, because we were already aligned by the time we hired them, we'd done our research and the work to know who fit, and so they didn't register. So eventually we just dropped the credo was no longer needed as a guide or a framework. It's still on the website, but, but you don't, you know it doesn't really matter. But that's what I got wrong, is I did not build the trust. I did not have I had processes in place, but but without the trust, people wouldn't tell me how they felt or that they were struggling. So a lot of process wasn't recognized or utilized properly. So I rebuilt it to where and rebuilt the trust to where the team that was with me when I sold I was very close with them. There was 100% trust across the board, a mutual respect, arguably a mutual love for the craft, for each other, for the company, for our clients, and it was a lot of fun to work with them. I didn't sell because I was unhappy. I sold because I was happy, and I thought now's a good time to go and find a good home. Plus my wife was my operations manager for five years, and she wanted out. Frankly, I thought it was easier to sell the business than try to replace my wife, because she was very good at what she did. She just didn't like doing it, yeah? And she also didn't like, you know, me being her boss. I never saw it that way. But once she explained it, after I sold, she explained, like, you know, you boss me around at work, and then you try to boss me around at home, and I'm not having it. You pick one? Yeah, so, so I was like, I think, like, I bossed you around. And she's like, Hey, you just, it was your company. It was always going to be your company. And, you know, that's fine, but you know, I want to move on. I was like, Okay, why don't we just sell and so that, yeah, they the operational people. And so it took her, took that load off of her. She's worked for. Nonprofit now, so she's happy, and so that's good. Michael Hingson ** 35:05 Well, it also sounds like there were a lot of people that well, first of all, you changed your your view and your modus operandi a little bit over time, and that's why you also got you fired, or you lost people. But it also sounds like what you did was you brought in more people, not only who thought like you, but who really understood the kinds of goals that you were looking at. And so it was a natural sort of thing. You brought in people who really didn't worry about the credo, because they lived by it anyway. Kent Lewis ** 35:38 Yeah, that's exactly right. And that was, that was my lesson. Was, you know, I always knew there's a concept called Top grading. You know, you thoroughly vet client, you hire slow and you fire fast. Most entrepreneurs or business owners hire fast and fire slow, and it's very, very expensive and but, you know, I got that part and I just better. I was far better at, I was far better at, what would I say, creating processes than kind of feeling, the love? And so once I figured that stuff out, it got a lot it got a lot better. Michael Hingson ** 36:16 It's a growth thing. Yes, 36:18 exactly, yeah. Well, you Michael Hingson ** 36:21 have something, and you sent me something about it. You call it Jerry Maguire moment. Tell me about that. Kent Lewis ** 36:28 Yeah. So that's, you know, I just, I just sort of backed into the story of just being unhappy. But what ended up happening more specifically that Jerry Maguire moment was putting my son to bed in March of 2013 and I mentioned that feeling of not of dread. I didn't want to go to work. I was frustrated with my team, disappointed in my clients, not appreciating the work we were doing, frustrated with some of my partners. You know, in the business, I felt disconnected from the work of digital because I'd worked on the business for longer than I'd worked in the business by that point, and so I just, it was, it was, I was a bit of a mess. And I realized, like, I need a reason to get up and go to work in the morning. And that's when I came up. I was inspired by Jerry Maguire's manifesto from from the movie, and apparently you can find it online. It's a 28 page manifesto. So I ended up distilling into those 10 truths that we called the credo, and so what happening is just again to recap, it took me a like a couple days. I had instant clarity. I like I fell asleep like a rock. Once I realized I had a plan and I had a framework, I felt better about it, even though there was much work to do. So as I mentioned, you know, half the team quit within the first week, the other half bled out over the next year. That meant 100% employee turnover for two years in a row. As like as I upgraded my team, that was painful. I had to hire three people in order to keep one good one. You know, as I as I search, because we don't have formal degrees in the world of digital marketing, right? So it's hard to find the talent, and you want to hold on to the good ones when you get them. So it took a long time to get the team dialed. Meanwhile, my clients got tired of the turnover. As I was trying to figure it out, they started leaving in droves, and so in 2014 in March, a year later, exactly, I lost my five biggest clients in a 30 to 45 day period. So I lost, you know, 40, over 40% of my revenue vaporized, and I could not replace it fast enough. So I didn't take a salary for nine months. I asked two senior execs to take small pay cuts like 10% and as we hunkered down, and so I didn't have to lay off any good talent, and so I didn't, and we sprinted, we rebuilt, you know, the pipeline, and brought some new clients in. By the end of the year, I paid back my my two senior employees, their 10% that they pay cut. I paid them back, but I didn't take a salary for nine months of that year. It was the worst year I'd ever had, and the only time I ever had to take a pay cut or miss a paycheck myself. So that was the price I paid. The plus side is once I realized that the focus should be on the employees, which was what the credo was, I didn't realize at the time that it wasn't about my clients anymore. They were the life blood. They were the blood flow, right? But we have this organism that needed love, so we I breathe life back into it, one employee at a time until we had a higher functioning group. So it took me five or six years, and in 2019 so six years after I blew the business up, I had an offer on the table, had a sale agreement finalized, and we were less than a week away from funding, and I backed out of the deal because I felt, one, it wasn't a good cultural fit, and two, there was more work to do. It wasn't about increasing my valuation more. It was about finishing my journey of an employee first agency and. Three years later, I sold for one and a half x higher multiple, so an additional seven figures to to another agency based on a stronger profitability, even though the revenue is about the same, stronger, you know, profitability right better. Happy clients, stable clients. It was a lower risk acquisition for them and the so that was the high point. The low point was becoming an employee and wanting to be the best damn employee that agency had ever seen to being a very disappointed, disengaged, disheartened, disheartened employee. And I then I decided I started writing notes of everything, not to do that they were doing wrong. And I decided, once they let me go, I need to focus on this. I think I needed to help my other fellow entrepreneurs ways to avoid going through what I went through as an employee, because I had just been one, and most of my employ, my entrepreneur friends, haven't been an employee for over 10 years. You easily, quickly forget what it's like to be an employee, and I want to remind them and as other senior leaders, how important it is to put your employees first, otherwise you can never deliver on your brand promise no matter what it is, because they won't deliver to your standards. Because it's you know, they don't feel the same attachment to a business if they as if they're not owners, right? Michael Hingson ** 41:22 But it sounds like you also, when you did sell, by that time, you had employees, one who had bought into the credo, into the philosophy, and two were satisfied. So it was a much better situation all the way around. Anyway, Kent Lewis ** 41:38 exactly. It's right? And that's, that's the thing is, I realized it's not about throwing money at a problem. It's about throwing time and care at a problem. And the problem is that most employers, there is no loyalty employ to employees anymore, and therefore there's no employee loyalty to brands anymore, to their employers. And so I'm trying to unwind that. And it's not about pension plans, per se. It's not about bonuses, really at all. That's one of 120 items on my punch list of auditing and employee journey is, yeah, do you have a bonus program? Mine was basically spot bonuses, little spot bonuses for timely things, because the big cash bonuses blew up in my face. You know, i i the biggest bonus check I ever wrote. The next day he quit and created a competing agency. Now, he had planned that all along it, the bonus was only helped him do it faster, but I realized there was no appreciation for the bonuses. So stop doing that. So instead, I would bonus, reward the team with experiences rather than cash. And they the cash they got from a really, I paid over market, so that money was not an issue, and so that experiences were the memorable part and the fun part, and it helped motivate when we'd have a little contest with, you know, the wind being a dinner or whatever it was, something fun, right? Michael Hingson ** 43:00 I was, earlier today, talking with someone who's going to be a guest on the podcast. He's in Germany, and we were talking about the fact that there's a major discussion in Germany right now about the concept of a four day work week, as opposed to a five day work week, and in the four day work week. Inevitably, companies that subscribe to the four day work week have higher productivity, happier employees, and some of those companies have a four day work week with a total of 36 hours and up through a four day work week with 40 hours, which is, of course, 10 hours a day. And what he said, I asked the question, did it make a difference as to whether it was 36 or 40 hours? What he said was mainly not, because it was really about having three days with family, and that that whole mental attitude is really it that we, we have forgotten, I think, in this country, about employee loyalty so much, and we just don't see anything like what we used to see. Kent Lewis ** 44:09 100% you are correct, Michael Hingson ** 44:13 and so it is. It is an issue that people really ought to deal with in some way. But you know now the new chancellor in Germany wants to go back to a five day work week, just completely ignoring all the statistics and what's shown. So the discussion is ongoing over there. I'll be interested to see how it goes. Kent Lewis ** 44:36 Yeah, yeah, totally. I would be in Troy. Yeah. We know for whatever reason, for whatever reason that they've you know that well, I guess it kind of makes sense. But you know, you wouldn't think you could be more productive fewer days a week, but the research is showing that these people, that you know, that the like the Northern Europeans, are the, you know, Finnish and Scandinavians are like the half. People on the planet, despite not being in maybe the friendliest climate, you know, 12 months of the year because of a lot of how they value, you know, work life balance and all of that. And I think that's the thing, you know, we we came from an industrial age where unions got us the weekends off. You know, it's a very different we've come a long way, but there's still a lot more to go, so I, I will be interested to see what happens with the with that concept that four day work week. Michael Hingson ** 45:26 Well, the other part about it is we had the pandemic, and one of the things that came out of the pandemic, at least, I think, in the minds of a lot of employees, was even working at home, and having to do that, you still got to spend more time with family and people value that. Now I don't know how over time that's going to work, because I know there's been a lot of advocating to go back to just everybody always being in the office, but it seems to me that the better environment would be a hybrid environment, where, if somebody can work at home and do at least as well as they do at the office. Why wouldn't you allow that? Kent Lewis ** 46:04 Right? Yeah, I think it's that's the other thing is, I do believe hybrid work is the best solution. We were doing three three days, two days in the office, required, one day, optional flex. I ended up going in most days of the week before I, you know, even after we sold and we sell at the office, because I like, I'm a social being, and I really enjoyed the time at the office. And it was, it was, I designed the space, and it was, you know, as my place, and it was my home away from home, you know. So I feel like I've lost a little bit of my identity, losing that office. Yeah, so, but yeah, I do think that it makes sense to be able to do remote work, whatever, wherever people are most effective. But I do know there is a reality that companies are fully remote have a struggle to create cohesiveness and connectiveness across distributed teams. It's just it's just science, right? Psychology, but you can be very intentional to mitigate as much as you can the downside of remote and then play up as much as you can the benefits of remote people having their life and they see, on average, I heard that people valued their remote work about to worth about $6,000 on average, that there's a number that they've quantified. Michael Hingson ** 47:21 Wow. Well, I know I've worked in offices, but I've also done a lot of work at home. So for example, I had a job back in the late 1970s and worked and lived in Massachusetts until 1981 and the company I worked for was being pursued by Xerox. And the the assumption was that Xerox was going to buy the company. So I was asked to relocate back out to California, where I had grown up, and help integrate the company into Xerox. And so I did. And so that was the first time I really worked mostly out of home and remotely from an office. And did that for two and a half, almost, well, a little over two and a half years. And my thanks for it was I was terminated because we had a recession and the big issue really was, though, that Xerox had bought the company and phased out all the people in sales because they didn't want the people. They just wanted the technology. And I've always believed that's a big mistake, because the tribal knowledge that people have is not something that you're going to get any other place. Totally, totally agree. But anyway, that occurred, and then I couldn't find a job, because the unemployment rate among employable blind people was so high, since people didn't believe blind people could work. So I ended up starting my own company selling computer aided design systems, CAD systems, to architects. Some of the early PC based CAD systems. Sold them to architects and engineers and so on. So I did have an office. We started, I started it with someone else, and had an office for four years, and then decided I had enough of owning my own company for a while, and went to work for someone else, and again, worked in an office and did that for seven years. Yeah, about seven years, and then I ended up in at the end of that, or the later part of that time, I was asked to relocate now back to the East Coast, because I was selling to Wall Street and New York and Wall Street firms really want, even though they might buy from resellers and so on, they want company, companies that make products to have them an office that they can deal with. So I ended up going back and mostly worked out of the office. But then, um. I left that company in 1997 and it was, it was a little bit different, because I was, I I had my own office, and I was the only person in it for a little while. We did have some engineers, but we all kind of worked in the office and sometimes at home. But for me, the real time of working at home happened in 2008 I was working at a nonprofit and also traveling and speaking, and the people who ran the nonprofit said, nobody's interested in September 11 anymore. And you know, you're you're not really adding any value to what we do, so we're going to phase out your job. Yeah, nobody was interested in September 11. And three years later, we had a number one New York Times bestseller, but anyway, your face yeah, so I ended up opening the Michael Hinkson Group Inc, and working out of home, and I've been doing that ever since. I enjoy working in an office. But I can work at home and I can, I can adapt. So my exposure to people and working not at home is when I travel and speak and get to go visit people and interact with them and so on. So it works out Kent Lewis ** 51:05 that's, that's fantastic, congratulations. That's awesome. Michael Hingson ** 51:10 It is, it is, you know, sometimes a challenge, but it works. So for you, what is your philosophy? You obviously do a lot of giving back to the community nowadays, is that something that has kind of grown over time, or you always had that? Or what's your philosophy regarding that? Kent Lewis ** 51:29 So I I believe that, as I mentioned, I believe earlier that learn and return us. I believe that you should giving, giving back your entire life, as soon as you're able to, in whatever way. And so I, you know, when I first moved to Portland, I barely knew anybody. I was volunteering at this local neighborhood house where it was, you know, as tutoring this kid, and ironically, in math. And I'm terrible at math. Then I went to Big Brothers, Big Sisters for a while, and then I for the last 19 for last 25 years, I've been a volunteer, and for eight or nine of those years, I was on the board of smart reading. It's a, it's a, it's not a literacy program in that you're not teaching kids to read. You're teaching kids a love of reading. So you just sit with, you know, title, title, one school kindergarteners in an area near you, and you sit and read with them for 10 to 15 minutes, that's it. And it's a game changer, because some of them didn't own any books. And then they get to take books home with them, you know, like scholastic style books. So anyway, I I decided, of all, like I have friends, that their their passion is pets, others, it's like forests or planet or whatever. To me, I think I can, I can solve all of those problems if I invest in children, because they're shaping our future, and we can put them on a trajectory. So for instance, statistically, prison capacity is based on third grade reading levels in blue. So if you're if you can't learn to read, you can't read to learn, so you need to have a be a proficient reader by third grade, or you're left behind, and you're more likely, 10 times more likely, to be in the system, and you know, not in a good way. So I realized, well, if I can help these kids with a love of reading, I was, I was slow to learn reading myself. I realized that maybe we, you know that one kid that you find a love of reading, that finds books they love and is inspired by the books and continues to read and have a successful educational career, then that's that person may go on to solve cancer or world hunger or whatever it is. So that's kind of how I look at so that's my theory in general about giving. And then specifically my passion is children. So that's kind of my thing, and I think there are a lot of different ways to do it. Last night, I was at my wife's auction or the fundraiser for her nonprofit, which is around the foster system. It's called Casa court, important court, court appointed special advocate. So these kids in the foster system have an advocate, that that's not a lawyer or a caseworker, you know, by their side through the legal system. And I think that's a fantastic cause. It aligns with my children cause. And I was, I had seven my parents fostered seven daughters, you know, Daughters of other people, and the last two were very that I remember were transformative for me as an only child, to have a sister, you know, foster sister that was living with us for, in one case, two years. And it was invaluable and helpful to me. She helped me find my love of reading, helped me learn my multiplication tables, all that things that your parents might be able to do, but it's so much cooler doing with somebody that's, you know, I think she was 17 when she moved into our house, and I was, like, nine, and she was so helpful to me, so inspiring. So in a nutshell, that's, that's what we're talking about Michael Hingson ** 54:55 when you talk talk about reading. I'm of the opinion and one of the best. Things that ever happened to reading was Harry Potter. Just the number of people, number of kids who have enjoyed reading because they got to read the Harry Potter books. I think that JK Rowling has brought so many kids to reading. It's incredible. Kent Lewis ** 55:14 Yeah, yeah. 100% 100% I Yeah. I think that even you may, you know, you may or may not like rolling, but I as a person, but she did an amazing thing and made reading fun, and that that's what matters, yeah, you know, Michael Hingson ** 55:33 yeah, well, and that's it, and then she's just done so much for for children and adults. For that matter, I talked to many adults who've read the books, and I've read all the books. I've read them several times, actually, yeah, now I'm spoiled. I read the audio versions read by Jim Dale, and one of my favorite stories about him was that he was in New York and was going to be reading a part of the latest Harry Potter book on September 11, 2001 in front of scholastic when, of course, everything happened. So he didn't do it that day, but he was in New York. What a you know, what a time to be there. That's fantastic. But, you know, things happen. So you one of the things that I've got to believe, and I think that you've made abundantly clear, is that the kind of work you do, the PR, the marketing, and all of that kind of interaction is a very time consuming, demanding job. How do you deal with work and family and make all of that function and work? Well, Kent Lewis ** 56:41 good question. I, I believe that that the, well, two things you have to have, you know, discipline, right? And so what I've done is really focused on managing my time very, very carefully, and so I have now keep in mind my oldest, I have three kids, one's graduating college as a senior, one's a sophomore who will be a junior next next year, and then The last is a sophomore in high school, so I'm there at ages where two are out of the house, so that's a little easier to manage, right? So there's that, but similarly, I try to maximize my time with my youngest and and with my wife, you know, I built in, you know, it was building in date nights, because it's easy to get into a rut where you don't want to leave the house or don't want to do whatever. And I found that it's really been good for our relationship at least once a month. And so far, it's been more like almost twice a month, which has been huge and awesome. But I've just intentional with my time, and I make sure 360 I take care of myself, which is typically working out between an hour and an hour and a half a day that I'm I really need to work on my diet, because I love burgers and bourbon and that's in moderation, perhaps sustainable, but I need to eat more veggies and less, you know, less garbage. But I also have been at the gym. I go in the Steam Room and the sauna, and I'm fortunate to have a hot tub, so I try to relax my body is after my workouts, I've been sleeping more since covid, so I work out more and sleep and sleep more post covid. And because I'm working from home, it's really I find it much easier to get up and take breaks or to, you know, just to manage my time. I'm not traveling like I used to, right? That's a, that's a big factor. So, so anyway, that's, that's kind of my take on that. I don't know if that really helps, but that's, that's kind of where I'm at. Michael Hingson ** 58:59 The other part about it, though, is also to have the discipline to be able to be at home and work when you know you have to work, and yeah, you get to take more breaks and so on, but still developing the discipline to work and also to take that time is extremely important. I think a lot of people haven't figured out how to do that Kent Lewis ** 59:19 right exactly, and that is so I do have an immense amount of, I do have an immense amount of, what would you say discipline? And so I don't know, yeah, I don't have that problem with getting the work done. In fact, my discipline is knowing when to stop, because I get into it, and I want to get things done, and I want to get it off my plate, so I tend to do sprints. But the other lesson I have from covid is listening to your biorhythms. So, you know, we're a time based society, and we look, you don't want to be late for this and that I you know, that's great, fine. But what's really more important in my mind is, um. Is to, is to be thinking about, is to let your body tell you when it's tired, if and and more importantly, is to not stress about in the mornings when I wake up early. By that, I mean between four and 6am before I really want to get up at 630 and I just if I'm awake, then I'll write stuff down to get it out of my head, or I will just start doing my start my day early and and not stress about, oh, I didn't get enough sleep. My body will catch up, yeah, it will tell me to go to bed early, or I'll sleep better the next day, or whatever it is. So that was important, and also to learn that I'm most I can get a lot of tasks done in the morning. And I think bigger picture, and that's what, that's why I wake up early, is all the things I need to do that I forgot. I didn't write down or whatever, and I think of them at between four and 6am but the other is that I do my best writing in the afternoon, like between four and six. So I told my, my wife and my, you know, my my kids, you know, my first figures out when they were both in the House. I was like, I may be working late, jamming out an article or doing whatever right before dinner, or I might be a little late. Can we can wait for dinner for a little bit? They're like, Yeah, that's fine. We don't care, right? So, but normally I'd be like, I gotta get home because it's dinner time. But now that I'm already home, I just keep working through, and then, and then, oh, I can take a quick break. But my point is, they're totally adaptable. Michael Hingson ** 1:01:27 But you communicate, yes, communication issue is key. Is key, absolutely. That's really the issues that you do communicate. Kent Lewis ** 1:01:36 It's all about setting expectations. And they had no expectations other than eating dinner. And we've been eating dinner later. Just, just a natural evolution. So it's not, it's not even an issue now, because I don't want to, I don't want to, what, right? What? Late at night, I just found it late afternoon, I just in a zone. Anyway, yeah, you listen to your body, and I'm way less stressed because I'm not worried about, oh my god, I have to get to bed at a certain time or wake up at a certain time. It's like, just kind of run with it, you know, and and go from there. So what's next for you? What's next? So I want to shift from going from speaking for free to speaking for a fee. There you go. And the re the reason why is I never asked for, and I'd even waive, you know, honorarium or pay because I got more value out of the leads. But now that I don't have an agency to represent, two things. One is, I want to get paid to do my employee engagement retention talks, because it's I'm getting great feedback on it, which is fun. But I also am being paid now by other agencies, a day rate, plus travel to go speak at the conferences. I've always spoken on that like me and want me and I just represent. I just changed the name that I'm representing. That's it, you know, Michael Hingson ** 1:02:56 well, and there's value in it. I realized some time ago, and I k

The Hidden Pain of Family Secrets with Michael H Hallett

How I Made It Through

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 18, 2025 51:53

The Hidden Pain of Family Secrets with Michael H Hallett** - A Journey to Understand Ancestral TraumaMichael H Hallett's incredible insights and understanding of Generational and Ancestral Trauma makes this an episode everyone should listen to.. All families have trauma in their past uncovering and understanding begin the healing.In this deeply insightful episode of "How I Made It Through," host Bernadette Thompson is joined by Michael H Hallett, an expert in generational trauma, to explore the profound impact of ancestral trauma on our lives. Michael, who transitioned from a career in process analysis and software engineering to the intricate world of human emotional processes, shares his unique mechanical approach to understanding and healing generational trauma. The conversation delves into the concept of emotional overwhelm and how traumatic experiences, whether personal or ancestral, create "stuck energy" that can be passed down through generations via epigenetic inheritance. Michael shares his personal journey of uncovering his family's hidden pains, including the profound impact of his grandmother's early death and the subsequent emotional void in his family narrative. He also discusses the societal lack of understanding around these issues and the importance of constructing a language and framework to process them.Listeners will learn about the manifestations of generational trauma within families, how these inherited wounds can dictate our emotional responses, and the patterns of behavior that often arise from them. Michael provides poignant examples from his own life, illustrating the pervasive effects of unresolved trauma and the healing journey that follows its acknowledgment.Michael's new book, "The Generational Trauma Workshop Manual," is highlighted as a practical guide for those seeking to understand and heal their own generational wounds. The episode concludes with a discussion on the historical context of trauma research, touching on studies involving descendants of Holocaust survivors.Reach out to Michael: Michael H Hallett website: https://www.michaelhhallett.com/- **Michael H Hallett's Book:** The Generational Trauma Workshop Manual (available on Amazon)- **Research on Epigenetic Inheritance:** Dr. Rachel Yehuda's work on trauma transmission- **Related Episodes:** Exploring Ancestral Healing and Trauma Patterns Reach out to Bernadette Thompson:https://www.tellmeourstory.com/Bernadette@tellmeourstory.com **Chapter Markers:**- **[00:00] Introduction:** Bernadette introduces the episode's topic and guest, Michael H Hallett.- **[03:00] Understanding Generational Trauma:** Michael explains emotional overwhelm and epigenetic inheritance.- **[06:00] Personal Journey:** Michael shares his first experience with generational trauma and its impact.- **[09:00] Family Stories and Secrets:** The role of hidden family narratives in shaping our identities.- **[12:00] Patterns of Behavior:** How trauma responses manifest in everyday life.- **[15:00] Spiritual and Ancestral Connections:** The role of spiritual awareness in uncovering family trauma.- **[18:00] The Generational Trauma Workshop Manual:** Michael discusses his book and its practical applications.- **[21:00] Historical Context and Research:** Insights into trauma studies involving Holocaust descendants.Thank you for tuning in to this enlightening episode of "How I Made It Through." If you found this discussion valuable, please consider subscribing, rating, and leaving a review on your favorite podcast platform. Share this episode with friends and family who may benefit from understanding the hidden pains of family secrets. For more insights and resources, visit our website and join our community on social media. Your journey towards healing and understanding begins with a single step—let's take it together.

pain spiritual reach hidden patterns holocaust generational family secrets historical context family stories michael h hallett research insights chapter markers rachel yehuda

Episode 362 – Unstoppable Customer Experience Influencer with Donna O'Toole

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 16, 2025 64:26

Did you know that there is a whole industry around the concept of helping deserving people and organizations to receive recognition through winning awards? In this episode we meet and get to know one of the foremost experts in this industry, Donna O'Toole. Donna grew up in the South of England in a real castle. At the age of 16 her family conditions changed, and she had to go to a home with four other girls who also lost their family arrangements. Donna had to go to work although she had wanted to go to university. Eventually she did get to earn her degree. Donna studied linguistics and found ways to use her growing knowledge of the field. Eventually she discovered the value of recognition and how helping people and companies gain recognition made them better for the experience. She began working to help people and companies earn awards. She will tell us about this fascinating subject and why earning awards is important. She gives us statistics about how after working to win awards and the subsequent recognition sales and overall exposure usually grows. About the Guest: Donna O'Toole is an award-winning entrepreneur, international awards judge, and bestselling author of WIN! – the ultimate guide to winning awards. She's also the founder of August Recognition, a global leader in awards strategy and part of the Dent Global group, helping purpose-driven entrepreneurs stand out, scale up, and make a meaningful impact. Named one of the Top 25 Customer Experience Influencers in the world, Donna has transformed the visibility and credibility of hundreds of businesses - from start-ups to FTSE 100 giants - by helping them win the recognition they deserve. Her clients span global brands, high-growth entrepreneurs, and inspirational leaders across every industry. Donna is renowned for her outstanding success rate in the most prestigious awards in the world, including The King's Awards for Enterprise. She's passionate about the true value of awards - not just the trophy, but the trust, authority, and growth they generate. Now, Donna is taking her mission even further. Together with her business partner and Dent Global co-founder Daniel Priestley, she's launching a pioneering new AI venture that's transforming the awards industry - making it safer, simpler, and smarter than ever for people to find, enter, and achieve the awards and recognition that matters. Ways to connect with Donna: https://www.augustawards.com/ - to get a free copy of my book: Win! and to get a Free awards list LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnaotoole/ Instagram: @donnaot About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Michael Hingson, and I think we'll have some fun today. We get to talk to Donna O'Toole, who is over in England, and she has a very interesting story to tell and a profession that she works at regarding awards. We'll get to all that in a bit. I don't want to give it all away, because it's more fun to listen to Donna tell it than it is to listen to me tell it. No one has ever said that I'm boring, but nevertheless, I always think that the people who come on the podcast are much more fun and interesting than I so I can't I can't argue with that, and of course, that's my job to make sure that happens. But anyway, here we are once again with unstoppable mindset. And Donna, I want to welcome you and thank you for being here. Donna O'Toole ** 02:09 Thank you. It's great to be here with you. Michael, thank you. Michael Hingson ** 02:13 And it's what about 930 in the evening? Or no, it's up 737 **Donna O'Toole ** 02:17 Well, it's Michael Hingson ** 02:19 after dinner. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here. And we're, we're really glad to have the opportunity to do this. And so I'd like to start, it's so fun to always start this way. Tell us sort of about the early Donna growing up and all that. Ah, okay. Donna O'Toole ** 02:35 Um, okay. So, well, I don't tell very many people this actually so secret. One for you, Michael, I actually grew up in a castle, which makes me sound like I lived in a fairy tale, but I didn't. It was definitely not a fairy tale, and I'm not a princess, so I'm sorry to disappoint anybody. Michael Hingson ** 02:54 Well, what was it like growing up at a castle? Donna O'Toole ** 02:59 It was, you know what? It's one of those things that when you're an adult, and you look back, you realize how amazing you were, it was, and how lucky you were. But when you're a child, it's just all, you know, isn't it? So, yeah, we were very lucky. I grew up in a town called Arundel, which is in the south of the UK. It's a very historic town, and the reason that I lived there was because my stepdad was the head groundsman at the castle, so he looked after all of the grounds for the Duke of Norfolk. And yeah, it was a it was a wonderful place to live. We used to be naughty and run around and go hiding in nooks and crannies that we shouldn't be. However, I was permanently petrified that there was ghosts and bats and all sorts of things like that. Michael Hingson ** 03:48 So were there ghosts? Donna O'Toole ** 03:49 Yes, definitely, certainly, they were making noises like ghosts, and we couldn't identify what they were. So, yeah, there's a few stories around that castle. Actually around I think there's a ghost of a lady in one in the library, and there is a ghost of a Labrador, actually, that people talk about seeing there as well. So I'm sure they were friendly. Michael Hingson ** 04:14 Did you ever see any ghosts? Donna O'Toole ** 04:16 I think I convinced myself that I did. On many occasion, my bedroom window looked out over Arundel Cathedral, which is was lit up at night, which looks very spooky. I used to be terrified to look out of the window at night, in case I saw something I didn't want to see. Michael Hingson ** 04:36 So was the castle drafty and cold in the winter? Donna O'Toole ** 04:40 Yes, definitely very stone and cold. And we had a ray burn. It's called, it's like an auger type thing where you just, you sort of heat up the kitchen by heating up this oven thing. Yeah, I remember putting wood in it. I remember that, Michael Hingson ** 04:56 wow. Well, that was kind of fun. So how long did you. Live in the castle. Donna O'Toole ** 05:00 So I lived in the castle until I was 16, and then her life took a bit of an unexpected turn at that point, and we had a difficult family breakdown that resulted in myself being actually taken into care for a while, so I didn't get to I did. I did finish school and finished my GCSEs exams as they were, but it did mean that I didn't get to continue on my education at that point, as I needed to earn some money and learn how to look after myself. So at 16, I was living in a home with four other girls who were in similar situations to me, which is girls who's through no fault of their own, their families couldn't look after them anymore. And we learned to, you know, live and survive and get through life together. And it was a great adventure. There was ups and downs, for sure, but actually at that point, I needed to get some work, and I also wanted to continue studying, so I ended up becoming an apprentice dental nurse, and that is where I started. And I never expected to go there. Wow. Michael Hingson ** 06:24 I guess, I guess it is an adventure, though. Yeah, Donna O'Toole ** 06:27 Life is an adventure, and you've got to be ready for whatever it throws at you. That's what I say. And Michael Hingson ** 06:31 I think that's a good way to put it. I think that life's an adventure, and I think that we can choose how to look at life no matter what happens, and either we can think things are positive and grow with whatever occurs or not. Yeah, 100% 100% and Donna O'Toole ** 06:46 actually, if it wasn't for that part of my life, I don't think I would be here today, doing what I'm doing now. So it's, it's incredible how you can't predict where life's going to take you, but you do go on a journey. So I actually became a dental nurse. And then I got bit bored of that, and my brain was always active, trying to think of something new to do. And I spotted a gap in the market for at the time dentists had there was just this legislation that changed that meant that dentists always had to have a nurse or a chaperone in the surgery with them, whereas before they hadn't had to have that. And so what was happening was you had all these small dental practices whereby the the dentist couldn't work if their nurse was on holiday or off sick or on maternity leave or something. So I spotted this gap in the market to be to start a dental nurse agency to fill those gaps, if you pardon the pun, and and to actually go all over Sussex and support the practices that needed help. So that was at the age of 19, I started my first business, and yeah, it was a great Michael Hingson ** 08:00 success. I was just going to ask how successful it was. Donna O'Toole ** 08:03 Yeah, it was great, and I really enjoyed it. And I got to know so many people. I trained nurses, which I really enjoyed as well. So I developed myself whilst I was developing them, which was great and and then after that, I I stopped that business and handed it over to some good friends who were brilliant nurses to have my children and to take a little break while I have my two daughters. Michael Hingson ** 08:27 Now, did you ever get to university or college? Donna O'Toole ** 08:31 Yeah, so then had my girls, and still I've got a very busy brain that needs a lot of occupying. So I thought, right, what can I do now? I've got two children under the age of four or five. I know I must need something else to do, so I decided to go back, finally, to university, and I studied linguistics, so English language linguistics at the University of Sussex in in the UK. And interestingly, it's incredible, because during that part of my life, I absolutely loved every part of it. I was really passionate about English, and as a child, I'd wanted to be an English teacher, but because my life had gone on a different path, it wasn't something that I'd been able to do. But actually, during that time, I studied large language models and computer mediated communication. And it just absolutely blows my mind that through making that decision and then further decisions later down the road, I'm actually now launching a company that is AI based that is containing large language models. So it's really, like, amazing how you can connect the dots in your in your journey. Michael Hingson ** 09:45 And of course, you're calling it Donna GPT, right? I had to. I Donna O'Toole ** 09:51 love it. I'm Michael. I am definitely calling it that now. Michael Hingson ** 09:56 Well, that's, that is cool though. Donna O'Toole ** 09:58 Yeah. So when I. Actually completed my degree. I came out of that and thought, right, well, I need to do some work now. And I started writing for businesses. I'm quite a business writer. I'm a real aura of people who can write fiction. I think that's incredible, yeah, but I'm definitely on the factual side. So I started business writing. Then I started, just by coincidence, started writing award entries for some businesses. I then started working with another awards agency, and I really saw, then the power of how awards and recognition helped people to reach their potential in business and in life, and so that then took me on my next journey. Michael Hingson ** 10:47 Well, awards are, are interesting. And of course, we hear about awards for all sorts of things, but tell me more about the power of awards and where they where they can fit into society. Donna O'Toole ** 11:00 Yeah. So, so we work from I work with business awards, so generally speaking, so even back then, it was sort of working with entrepreneurs, or entrepreneurial businesses, or even big brands, whereby they wanted to recognize their achievement and they wanted to raise their profile, so they needed to raise brand awareness, perhaps around what they do, their services, their products, and what's always quite I find quite interesting about awards is people who've never been involved in awards tend to come into them with quite skepticism, which is understandable. It's not a regulated industry, so you do have to be a bit skeptical and do due diligence around what awards you're entering. But they come into them with skepticism about themselves and actually whether they have what it takes to win. And very often, what I found was they did have what it takes to win, they just didn't have know how to communicate it in a way that others could understand that they had what it took to win. So my job, as I see it, is to really support them, to communicate their story, their data, their evidence, everything that they're doing, and turn that into a proposition that demonstrates why they would be exceptional at what they do, or their team is exceptional, their brand is exceptional, so that They can stand out in awards. Michael Hingson ** 12:21 So it's almost like you're helping to train potential award recipients to respect what the awards are and what they do. Yeah, Donna O'Toole ** 12:31 it is always understanding what they're looking for, what the criteria is, and how they can stand out against it. But also, you know, most people who are involved in a business, whether you're running a business or whether you're a part of a team or you're a manager, we don't have the time to stop and look back and think, wow, what have we done over the last year? What have we achieved? What you know, what's really standing out about us? We just don't give ourselves that time. So recognition and awards is a really good opportunity to stop and look back and celebrate together the development journey that you've been on in your business and and motivate your team and the people around you to do even more because you're recognizing it Michael Hingson ** 13:13 well. So how did you actually get involved in doing awards in the first place? What that's a pretty unique sort of thing to take on. Donna O'Toole ** 13:23 Yeah. So it was kind of a journey from starting out in business writing and then moving through into doing a few award entries, and then that became more and more, and then I worked for another organization. And then in 2016 I decided the time was right to launch my own company and to start supporting more people with awards. I was, had already been involved with the industry, so I was very well supported by some great awards in the industry. And so yeah, I I started my new business, and that was called August recognition. And because I'm a linguist, I like words that have extra meanings. And August actually means in its second sense of the word, when you're not using it as the month actually means respected and admired. So in my mind, I had started an agency that enabled people to be respected and admired for what they did, and help them raise their profile that way. So Michael Hingson ** 14:24 you don't really hear a lot about the industry of helping people get awards, but I gather it's probably a fairly substantial industry around the world. Donna O'Toole ** 14:35 Yeah, it's 10 billion pound industry in the awards industry in itself. It's 2 billion just in the UK. So yeah, it's a big, big industry. There's so many events connected to awards. There's so many different processes. So yeah, and there's, if you imagine, every different industry there is in the world there's awards for it. I dare you to find an industry where there's not an award. Yeah. Even, Michael Hingson ** 15:02 I'm sorry, even, even AI. And that's pretty even AI, yeah, yeah. And so when AI starts generating its own awards, then we can probably worry a little bit, Donna O'Toole ** 15:13 yeah, we're eating ourselves, yeah? Michael Hingson ** 15:17 But still, it's, it's a fascinating, well, topic and industry to talk about, because I'm sure there's a lot to it. Of course, like with anything, there's also a lot of politics and all that sort of stuff, but, but it must be a fascinating industry to to be a part of and to see when you help somebody get an award. How does all that work? Yeah, so Donna O'Toole ** 15:42 usually, well, we work with businesses from the smallest business in the world right through to the biggest business in the world, literally. And what I really love about the whole process is you, you as a small business, you can use the same strategies, you can enter the same awards as the biggest businesses can and you can win. So what I really love is that you you don't have to be a certain size, you don't have to be a certain type of business. You just need to be having an impact in some way on something, and then be able to tell It and Prove It, essentially. Michael Hingson ** 16:19 So how do you as a person in the industry make your money or earn your money as part of all of this? So Donna O'Toole ** 16:26 we work with clients who are looking for recognition. So for example, a brand may come to us and say, you know, over the last couple of years, we've done some great learning and development projects. We've trained our teams, we've digitized our processes, we've done all of these great things. We'd love to recognize the people that have worked so hard and really, you know, give them the recognition that they deserve. So we will then look at their project, look at their business. You know, what kind of impact has that had on it might be internally. It might be that it's had a great impact for their customers. It might be it's had a great impact for the impact. For the employees. And then we'll look at all of the data around that, and we will create, we will research which are going to be the best awards to recognize them, which criteria they match, which categories they match, and then essentially, we'll support them to execute all of the work that needs to go together to go into the awards process. Someone's once said to me, did you ever think you'd be running a business where you're basically writing exams every single day? Yeah, it's a bit like that. Fortunately, I don't do the writing anymore so, but yeah, I kind of love it. Michael Hingson ** 17:36 Yeah. Well, it seems like it would be sort of your your writing exams every day, or you're involved in helping to prepare people for the exams. Donna O'Toole ** 17:45 Yeah, it's very analytical from looking at what's been achieved, but then it's all about communication and how you're going to deliver that to the awards process. And it's all about finding the right awards that are going to give them the right recognition, that's going to really have a return on investment for the motivation of the team, for the brand awareness, whatever it is that their goals are, that they're hoping to get to. Michael Hingson ** 18:06 Well, so awards in general, it seems to me, create a lot of recognition. And you say that recognition has the power to make people unstoppable? Tell me a little bit more about them. What that means to you? Yeah, Donna O'Toole ** 18:24 absolutely. Um, something I call awards imposter syndrome, which is where, you know, often, and this typically is with entrepreneurs and smaller businesses. They they'll come to us and say, you know, I'd really love to get some recognition of my brand, but I really, I think we we're doing enough, or don't know if we're worth it or we could really stand out. And actually, you know, what we want to do is make them unstoppable. We we want them to see where all the power is in what they're doing and how they can make a difference in the world. So we will go and discover all of that about their business, and then help them to communicate it in a way that even now they can see what they're doing is brilliant. And then through that recognition, there's a lot of research to show the amount of motivation that awards bring to people, even more so than even a pay rise, you know. So through that recognition, it makes them feel more able. I always say to people you know, don't think about business awards right now. Think about the awards that you won when you were a child. Think about when you were at school and you entered awards in the swimming competitions or dancing competitions. Someone want someone told me today they won a competition for the best recorder player. I said I thought, I thought we had to ban recorders. But you know, when you got that recognition as a child, we didn't think, Oh, my goodness, I'm you know, do I really deserve it? I'm so shy. Let's not tell anyone about this recognition. We loved it, and it enabled us to go on and do more. So we want to do okay, we won that swimming competition. Let's do another swimming competition. Let's really learn our craft and do more and more of what we do better and better. Her and I liked people to try and think of that feeling that they had then and bring that into now with their business. You know, don't be humble about what you're doing, because the more that you can shout about your success, the more that you can help other people to achieve success through what you're doing, and the more you've got a platform to shine a spotlight on something that you believe in and that you want to make a difference in the world about. So, you know it, I call that, I say to people, you know, if you're feeling like a bit of an imposter about awards, one of the best things you can do is to create what we call a who wins when you win campaign. And what that is, is sort of putting a stake in the ground and making a pledge to say, when we win this award, we are going to go and do this great thing, and it might be we're going to go and do a team beach clean together. We're going to mentor some people. We're going to celebrate as a team and go out for the day, or we're going to plant some trees. You know, it could be anything that means something to you, but it's a really good opportunity to seal that recognition with something that reminds you that you are worth it and really helps you get over that imposter syndrome and celebrate your achievement. Michael Hingson ** 21:14 I assume you also run into the other side of that, which are the people who just think by definition, because they are, whoever they are, they must deserve awards, whether, yeah, must be a lot of that. Yes. So Donna O'Toole ** 21:27 a while back, because I'm a linguist, I interrogate language all the time. I can't help it. And I would look at, I judge a lot of award entries all from around the world. Judge the leading competitions in many countries. And I would look at these award entries, and I could tell what the person was thinking when they're writing the entry, as they're coming as you're reading it. And I developed these 10 personas of different types of people that enter awards. And so we've got everything from the imposter to the ostrich who wants to hide their head in the sand to the bridesmaid who's always the always, never quite makes it to the podium. And one of those actually is the peacock. And the peacock is the one who thinks they're going to win everything, and does come across like that, but isn't great about taking the feedback when they don't win. Michael Hingson ** 22:20 Yeah, that's really the issue, isn't it? Right? It's they don't take the feedback, and they don't change what they do and why they do it and how they do it, to be a little bit more humble in what they're all about. Donna O'Toole ** 22:33 Absolutely, absolutely. We've also got an awards persona called the politician, and that's somebody who doesn't answer any of the questions, and all their numbers don't add up. Michael Hingson ** 22:46 Now, I wonder what my cat would think about awards. I wonder dogs are humble, but I don't know that cats are necessarily, Donna O'Toole ** 22:56 yeah, they've definitely got a bit more persona going on, haven't they? I don't Michael Hingson ** 23:01 know if they necessarily would be interested in awards, because they tend not to want to stand up in front of public and do stuff. That's Donna O'Toole ** 23:07 true, that's true. Yeah, they're kind of yeah, they're their own creature, aren't they? They are, aren't they? I don't think they think they need awards, actually, Michael Hingson ** 23:15 yeah, that's right. They don't think they need awards. They think that everybody should just recognize them for who they are, Donna O'Toole ** 23:20 I might have to add a new persona to my league now. Michael Hingson ** 23:26 Well, you know, there's, there's value in that, but, but still, so you've, you've helped a lot of people with awards. I wonder if you have a story that you could share where they've received recognition and it just completely changed their lives and what they did and what they do. Oh, Donna O'Toole ** 23:49 so many, so many of those. Yeah. So, I mean, let's think of an example. So a few years ago, I was working, actually, it was interesting. I was I was introduced by on email, just to a gentleman called Andrew, who I was introduced by the Department of Trade and Industry here in the UK, who said he's got a great story. He's got a great business. He's growing fast. We think he should win some awards. We should talk to you. And so I was like, great. Let's get on a call, Andrew. And every time we booked a call, he didn't turn up to the call. And I thought, oh goodness, you know, it's like three attempts at this call and it's just not happening. And I just emailed him and said, look, it looks like you. Maybe you're not interested in winning awards, so, you know, catch up with me if you ever get the chance. And he emailed me back, actually, this is in the introduction of my books. And he emailed me back, and he said, Donna, I'm so so sorry. I'm going through a really difficult time at the moment. His wife had cancer. His son was being bullied at school, and he was really struggling, and he'd started a business that would have grown very quickly, whilst also as a side hustle, while. Also doing the job, and he was quite overwhelmed. And I said, he said, you know, and he actually said, so if I can't even turn up for a call, how could I possibly win an award? So I said, Oh, my goodness, okay, let me, let's get together, and I'll let you know whether you can win an award or not. But this is a big award we're talking about, because he'd actually been recommended to enter what was the Queen's Awards for Enterprise. It's now the king's Awards, which is the biggest and most prestigious business award in the UK, if not in the world. And I said, let's, you know, you've been recommended for this. Let's, let's at least explore it. So I went over to his house. We had a coffee, I went through everything of his business, and I said, You know what I do? Think you've got what it takes, but I don't think you're in the right mindset to be able to manage so let us help you. So he agreed, we worked on that project, and a year later, because that's how long it takes, I was absolutely delighted. He won the Queen's awards for innovation, and it was game changing for him. And what I really loved about it was, it's a couple of things. So one is because he's a techie person, and he had launched it was a software product that he'd developed. He'd put the logo for the award on his website, and he measured the impact that that was making on his website, which is really useful for me to know, because often people don't do that. And he got came back to me in a couple of months later, and he said, in three months, his sales have gone up by 30% because of the impact of winning this award. And you know, when you're running a business and you're trying to run a family and you've got other things going on that are really important, you need your sales to go up without you having to work harder, because it gives you the free time. It gives you the ability to employ people to support you. It gives you then the time back with your family when they need you most. So I was absolutely delighted for him that it had an impact on him and his business that would enable him to actually have the time that he needed with his family and help them and support them. So that was something that was game changing in my mind, for, you know, for a really personal reason. And I was delighted he was happy to share that in in my book. Yeah, so that that was a lovely one. Michael Hingson ** 27:14 So what is kind of the common thread? Or, how do you what is it you see in someone that makes them award winning, that that genuinely makes them award winning, as opposed to the politicians and peacock Donna O'Toole ** 27:28 Okay, so what it is is they need to be making an impact in some way. And I think people tend to be quite fixated on on measuring or looking at their customer service, but I'm looking at their customer impact. So what their customer impact is that's something customer service is transactional, right? Customer impact is transformational. So what is it that you're doing that is making a difference or making life easier in some way for your customers? Or it is could be internal as well. So it could be your employees, for example, but generally it's impact. Now, with Andrew's story, the software that he developed, it was the first software that had the biggest ability to, I mean, I'm not a techie, so I'm probably describing this in the wrong way, the ability to display charts and graphs with the biggest amount of numbers. So we think, Okay, well, why is that important? Well, these are the graphs and the charts that are going into ECG machines in hospitals. These are going into universities to do research. You know? These are going into all sorts of things, stocks and shares. They're going into Formula One racing cars. There's so many, there's so much impact coming out from having designed that software that it's having an impact on us as humanity, and that's the kind of golden thread that you want in your award, is, what is the impact that you're having, and where can you show and prove that it's making a difference to someone, somehow, somewhere? Michael Hingson ** 28:56 And I assume there are, we've talked about it, but I assume that there are a lot of people who are award winners who never, just never thought they would be, even though they're, they're perfectly capable and, oh yeah, they're deserving, but they, they don't, they're not doing it to seek the award. They're doing it to do what they want to do. Donna O'Toole ** 29:18 Yeah, and they need, they need the recognition to shine that you know, 90% of businesses are small businesses now, and it's a very noisy world out there when you're trying to sell your products and services, you need to be able to do something that helps you to cut through and to get into customers minds and build trust. 85 Nielsen did a study 85% of customers now want to see credible awards on your website, on your products, before they will have the trust layer there to buy from you. What's really interesting is, years ago, we had, you remember when reviews came out? So Amazon was one of the first organizations to do reviews. I actually studied. Reviews and the mechanisms and language structures in them. And we all trusted reviews at the beginning, because, oh, great, you know, someone's going to tell us what their experience was of this thing, and we love it. And then as time went on and as the decades have progressed, we then learned not trust reviews, because it was like, Oh, hang on, they might be fake reviews, or, you know, that could be a competitor, putting a bad review on a competitor. So there's lots of reasons then not to trust reviews. So then we go, oh, well, what do we trust? Then we can't just trust what the business is telling us. We need something that's external, that's third party, and that's going to enable us to trust that brand. And then what we saw then is the pandemic happened, and we all went to shopping online. We all went to living online, and we all saw businesses fall apart and lose money who we never expected to because they didn't have the digital transformation turn around quick enough, or for whatever reason, there was a lot of businesses that suffered in the pandemic, and a lot thrived, and since that then, it was almost like awards and reviews together became even more important to all of us, because we needed something to help us to trust the brands other than, you know, the strongest referral, which is a word of mouth referral. So if you haven't had a word of mouth referral and you've gone online and you found something through a search, how do you know whether you can trust putting your money into that business to buy its products or services? So this is really where we come back to recognition, to say, Well, no, this is a this brand gives excellent customer service, or this brand is a great place to work. It really looks after its employees. So there's a huge amount of reasons now why businesses do awards to demonstrate they are trustworthy in so many ways like nowadays. You know, we live in a world where employees want to work for organizations that will look after them and that will treat them well, so that employees looking for jobs will go out looking for the businesses that have got a great place to work accreditation or award because it makes them trust that they're going to be looked after. Well, Michael Hingson ** 32:08 it's interesting. Nielsen did a study back in 2016 regarding brand brand loyalty and disabilities, and what they found was that people with disabilities are at least 35% more likely to stay with an organization and buy from an organization that has done things like really taken the Time to make their websites accessible and to make their their environment welcoming to people with disabilities, because it is so hard to oftentimes deal with companies they're they're companies that that I deal with their websites. They're just not accessible, and they don't want to change, and it's not magic to make them accessible, but they don't, and then there are other companies that do, and I agree with the Nielsen study. It makes perfect sense, because the reality is, you're going to steal with companies that that really take the time to show that they value you being there, yeah, Donna O'Toole ** 33:17 well, it's interesting, actually, because I've been looking at this in the awards industry and accessibility, and it's something that I'm passionate about as well. And so we've just written a white paper, we've just done some research, commissioned some research, and we've just written a white paper on accessibility and awards, because we want people to be recognized, whatever, whoever, whatever they do, it shouldn't be saved for anyone who isn't, you know, doesn't have a disability or can't access their forms. You know, it should be open to absolutely everybody. So we've been looking into that now and seeing, you know, what is it that we can do to influence the industry to be more accessible and to really share recognition for all? Michael Hingson ** 33:59 Yeah, well, and, and it's important, I think, to do that, because there have been enough statistics to show that roughly 25% of the population has some sort of a disability in the traditional sense of the word. Now, I have a different view than that. I believe that everyone on the planet has a disability, and for most people, their disability is you're light dependent. You don't do well in the dark, and if suddenly you're in a building and the power goes out or whatever, you scramble around trying to find a light source or a smartphone or a flashlight or whatever. But the reality is that all those light sources do is cover up your disability. On the other hand, I do recognize that there are people. We're in a minority by any standard, because we are, we are not the traditional, if you will, person. We do tend to be blind, or we tend to be deaf or hard of hearing, or we tend to be low vision, or we don't walk, and there are fewer of. Less than there are of the rest of you light dependent people, and so you don't recognize the disability that's there. But it's, it's important, I think, for people to recognize it. Because in reality, when people suddenly realize, Oh, I've got my own challenges, then you get to be more aware of and want to, at least a lot of times, think about ways to make the world a more inclusive place overall. Donna O'Toole ** 35:27 I think that's such a great way of looking at it, and it really helps immediately. I couldn't see exactly what you you're saying is, yeah, 100% as soon as the lights go out, I'm completely incapable of knowing what to do next. So, yeah, you're absolutely right. Michael Hingson ** 35:44 Yeah, it is. It is one of those things that we just don't deal with enough. But nevertheless, it's, it's there. So there, there are a lot of reasons to to deal with access, and that's why I work with a company called accessibe that has been they started smaller and narrower in scope, but they have become very robust in doing things to make the internet a more inclusive place. And so one of the things that they've learned is you can't do it all with AI, although AI can help. And so there are so many things to be done, but the reality is, there are a lot of different kinds of disabilities that really need the Internet to and website creators to pay attention to their needs, to make sure that they, in fact, do what's necessary to make the web accessible to those people. It's a challenge. Donna O'Toole ** 36:40 It is, and we're going through that challenge at the moment, actually. So I'm just launching a new business, and it's called, it's an AI platform that's going to enable people to do exactly what we do as an agency, find, enter and win awards, but on a platform that is accessible to everybody. So it's aI enabled. But obviously, as you exactly say, that's not the end of the story. So there's a lot of work to do, and we're doing lots of research to find out what we need to do to make sure that that is accessible to everybody, because we want to enable more people to have a good chance of getting the recognition they deserve through a platform that enables them to do that, rather than perhaps miss out on really vital recognition that could help to promote what they do just because they can't access it. Michael Hingson ** 37:31 Yeah, well, and it happens way too, way too often. Yeah. And it's not like it's magical to make the web more inclusive. It's just that a lot of people don't know how to do it. Although the information is readily available, they just don't consider it a priority. Donna O'Toole ** 37:48 Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, we're really putting this front and center. My business partner is Daniel Priestley. He's just been on the driver CEO actually talking about the AI side of it. So together, we're really working at trying to join all the dots so that we get all the right technologies in there and ways of working. So I'll be getting you beta testing that. Michael, Michael Hingson ** 38:14 absolutely. And if there's any way to help, I am very happy to help. Thank you. So Don't, don't hesitate to reach out. So we will. We've now said that publicly for the whole world, that's all right. So what do you say to the person who says winning an award is just not for Donna O'Toole ** 38:33 me? I think often, you know, I was thinking about this earlier, actually, and I was thinking, you know, there's different things that we're all in favor of and all not in favor of most of the time, when I come across people who say a winning awards is not, for me, is they either haven't been involved in an awards process before, or they feel a bit shy of it and like a bit of an imposter. And, you know, it's a risk, isn't it? You're putting yourself up to be judged, ultimately. So it does take a bit of courage, and it takes a bit of reflection. So, you know, I say, Look at what impact you're having, you know, go away and see, have you got impact on your customers? Somehow, have you got impact on your community? Somehow? It doesn't all have to be about transactional business. It could be that actually you're doing something great for the environment or sustainability or for a community source or for charity, you know, so what are you doing that's making a difference, and it could recognition help you to do more of that? Could it give you the spotlight to enable you to do more of that purpose? Because if it could, then why not, you know, why not do it and get some recognition? Michael Hingson ** 39:36 Yeah, well, and that makes sense. And but some people may still just continue to say, well, I don't really think I've done that much, and so it isn't for me. Donna O'Toole ** 39:47 Yeah, absolutely. And you'll always have people who don't want to do everything at the end of the day, you know, it's probably, realistically, it's probably, you know, the top 10% of businesses that are looking to win awards because they're already in that zone or. Where they're, you know, they're growing, they're they're trying to transform. They're always jumping on the next best thing. So, you know, it's a good way to benchmark ourselves as well, and to say, you know, how can I progress this year? Well, what would it take for me to win this particular award? Let's say, let's have a look at what it would take, and let's see if we can get to the business, to that stage, because that way you can develop the business first, before you even think of entering the award, so that you have got the impact, and you have got, you know, all the right things to show that you're making a difference. Michael Hingson ** 40:31 Yeah, and you brought up a point earlier, which I think is extremely interesting, the whole issue of awards and reviews, one of the things that I do when I'm looking at buying a product that I'm not overly familiar with is I love to look at the worst reviews for the product. Yeah, they're the most fun, because you find out really quickly. If you look at those reviews, you find out whether the person really knows what they're talking about or not and whether they really got good arguments. And I find that the people who give the bad reviews generally are, are not, are not necessarily, really giving you substantive information that you can use. Donna O'Toole ** 41:15 Yeah, exactly. That's often the way I am. I actually studied reviews, and I looked at the different language structures and reviews of different retail stores, and how, how the the language that the people used in their reviews influenced the buyers. And it was really funny, because this is back in the days. This is just when I was at university. I was doing my dissertation, and it was what we were looking for. What I was looking for was what represent, what people felt represented good value for money. Because no matter how much money you've got, whether you've got a pound to spend or 1000 pounds to spend, you just want to get good value for money for what you're spending. So it doesn't really matter how pricey the product is. It matters your perception of good value for money, and that's essentially what tends to come across in a review, even if people don't say it is whether they think it's good value for money or not, whether it's the brand or the actual product. And it was really funny, because I did this whole study, and I came up with a structure that retailers should use to give to their reviewers to then put the review in in the most helpful way possible for the people then looking at the reviews who want to purchase the product, and I it was great, and I was really happy with it, and got first class and all of that. Anyway, a while later, I bought a coat from a store called Debenhams in the UK, which is now only online. But I bought this coat, I wrote a review and put it on their website. And it was quite the early days of reviews. Still, two days later, Debenhams called me, and I couldn't believe it, because when you had to leave your review, you had to leave your name and number, and it was like, I said, it's a very new thing then. And they actually telephoned me, and they said, Hello, we want to say thank you for your review that you left about this coat, and I still have the coat. And because, because of your review, we sold out the product. And so we want to say thank you. So we're sending you a voucher. And I got this voucher through the post. And I mean, you wouldn't get that, I don't think nowadays, no, but it really showed me the difference that a review could make on a product back then, you know, and how writing the right type of review, not just saying it's great, but why it's great, why I considered it good value for money about the material and the sizing and the shape and all of the quality and that kind of thing. It gave people reassurance to buy, and that's what we're looking for when we're looking at reviews. And that's where awards can come in and kind of secure that trust as well. I don't know about you, but I get down rabbit holes with reviews on things like trip, Michael Hingson ** 43:52 oh yeah. Well, what I found is, if I look at the positive, the best reviews, I get more good technical information, and I got and I get more good product knowledge, but then I look at the bad reviews, and the reason I look at those is I want to see if they truly are giving me the same information the other way, and they don't. They're it's totally emotional, and a lot of times it is just not, in fact, what I or others find with the products, and that the bad reviews tend not to really give you nearly the information that the bad reviewers think they're giving you if you if you read them carefully. And I think that gets back to your whole issue of studying language, but still, they're not giving you the information that they really ought to be giving you. And, you know, I've had some where somebody gave a bad review to a product because the box arrived and it was open or wasn't sealed. Well, yeah, all right, so what Donna O'Toole ** 44:55 exactly I know it's ridiculous. I mean, I think we're as consumers a bit more. Pragmatic about it nowadays, but as businesses, we need to be able to demonstrate to our customers in every way possible, you know. And that's why social media now and user generated content is so popular. Because we don't want to see what it looks like on a model anymore. We want to see what it looks like on a real life, personal we want to hear someone's like real life, day to day experience of something, as opposed to a polished article on it, right, Michael Hingson ** 45:26 which, which is, is the way it ought to be. And again, that gets back to substance. And the the people who give really good reviews are generally the ones that are giving you substance. I've had some bad reviewers that had very good reasons for why they feel the way they do. And then you look at it and you go, Well, maybe it doesn't fit in their situation or, aha, they really know what they're talking about. I'm going to take that into consideration when I look at buying this product or not. But a lot of them Donna O'Toole ** 45:57 don't. Absolutely, no, absolutely, yeah, I could do this for days. Michael Hingson ** 46:04 Yeah. Well, it is. It is fascinating, but it's part of human nature Donna O'Toole ** 46:09 psychology, isn't I tell you when else it comes up and it's quite interesting. So often we make companies may approach us and say, Leo, we want to win awards to be the best place to work. And we'll say, okay, great, you know, tell us about the workplace, and we'll go through all these different criteria with them, and they tell us all this great stuff. And then we go and do our own research as well, because we need to verify this, right? And we go on to glass door, and then we see some horrendous reviews from employees that have left. I think, okay, maybe this is, maybe this is not quite all the story we're getting here. Yeah. So, you know, the thing with awards is, if you are saying anything about your business, you're going to have to prove it. So reviews from your customers and reviews from your employees are super important for awards. Actually, Michael Hingson ** 46:59 I find as a speaker that letters of recommendation are extremely important. In fact, I even put it in my contract that if someone likes the talk, then I expect to get a letter of recommendation. And for a good amount of people, they do that, although I've had some people who forget or just don't. But the letters are extremely valuable, especially when they go into detail about not just the talk, but like in my case, I view when I visit a customer, or when I view when I talk about going to speak somewhere, I believe that I'm a guest like anyone who goes, and it's not about me, it's about them. It's about the event. It's about the people who are putting it on. It's about the audience. And I always want to make sure that I do everything I can to be as not a problem as possible. And I know that there are some people that don't do that. I had a I had an event once where I went and spoke, and while there, I talked to the person who brought me in, and I said, What's the most difficult speaker you ever had? Had come here? And I was just curious. I was curious to see what he say without any hesitation. He said, We had a woman who came to speak, and we honored the contract, although still don't know why, but she insisted that in the green room, and so there had to be one, but in the green room there had to be a brand new, never used crystal champagne flute full of pink M M's. Now what does that have to do with being a speaker? Well, I know some people just like to take people through the wringer. They want to try to drive the point home that they're the bosses. Well, I think that, you know, I know what I can do. What I said to the guy, though afterward I said, Well, okay, I hear you. They actually did find peak Eminem. So was interesting. I said, Well, let me just tell you that if you bring cheese and crackers, I'll share them with you. 49:10 They brought you that we had fun, yes, Michael Hingson ** 49:13 but, you know, but, but he, he understood that there were no demands. I wouldn't do that. I just think that that's not what I'm supposed to do as a speaker. My job is to in a well, inspire and motivate and and to educate. But it's not my job to be difficult. And I've gotten some wonderful letters that say how easy I made it to work with them, which is great. Yeah, fantastic. I'm sure you did. So it's, it's a lot of fun to to see some of those, and I've gotten some great stories over the years, which is really Speaker 1 ** 49:46 a lot, and that's why they love to have you. Well, I hope so Michael Hingson ** 49:53 we still do it, and it's a lot of fun to help and motivate and inspire. But yeah, I. I and by the way, I guess I'd never be interested in pink M M's anyway, so I wouldn't see the colors. So, Donna O'Toole ** 50:08 yeah, glass of water is just about the thing on my list. Michael Hingson ** 50:12 Yeah, well, you know, I'll take M M's if they show up. And I'm not going to demand them, that's okay. But you know, people are interesting. So once somebody's won an award, you've talked about this some, but when I once somebody has won an award, what's next? Donna O'Toole ** 50:28 So next, it's all about, well, sharing it to demonstrate why people often forget to tell people why they've won an award. They just say that they've won an award. I think it's important to say, why? Like, what is it? What is it? What impact are you having? What's the difference that you're making out there in the world? Why have you won and share that on your profile? As I said, you know, people buy from people now as well. If you're winning an award as a leader or as a speaker or as an entrepreneur, you know people want to know about that because it helps to give credibility to what you do and trust like, just like those letters of referral that you're talking about. So, you know, get that on your LinkedIn profile, get it onto your podcast, you know, all of those different things, and take pride in your work and share that Michael Hingson ** 51:14 I had a salesperson I hired is my favorite sales guy, and when I asked him, as I asked everybody who came to apply for jobs, what are you going to be selling for us? Tell me about that. He is the only person who ever said, The only thing I really have to sell is myself and my word. Your product is stuff, and it's all about trust and it's all about honoring my word. And he said, The only thing I asked from you is that you backed me up. And I said, well, as long as you do a good job, you know, but he understood it, and he's actually the only person that I ever hired that really articulated that, but that was always the answer I was looking for, because it really told me a lot about him. Just that simple answer told me more about him than anything else anyone, even he could say, Donna O'Toole ** 52:06 yeah, absolutely. So it's so important, and you know, so I'm part of a key person of influence program that Daniel Priestley runs, and it's I do profile coaching for entrepreneurs to help them to become a key person of influence in their in their industry. And now that's not being an influencer. That's being someone who's known for being good at what they do and being a key person in that industry. And you know, work flows to you if people know what you do and know who to come to because you're the expert in that area, if you're a small business, you're an entrepreneur, you're struggling to get leads, then actually maybe you need to make yourself put bit more known. People tend to be bit shy and hide behind their brand. But you know, if you look at people like Richard Branson, you know, we when you trust an entrepreneur, then you will buy from the brand. And there's many more entrepreneurs I could mention, who when the trust is lost with them because of their behavior in some way, then their brand suffers. It's quite clear to see, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 53:09 do you find that most people who win an award do carry on and do positive things as a result, and that their brand and what they do improves, or is some people win and just falls by the wayside. Donna O'Toole ** 53:27 Generally speaking, if you're the people that are going in for awards, the brands that are going forwards, they're progressive, so they usually progress with it. There's a piece of research that shows that businesses that have won awards are around 77% more valuable than businesses without awards even five years after winning. And that's because when you're going for an award in business, you've got to do a lot of develop. You know, there's got to be some good stuff happening in your business. And so naturally, the businesses that are doing those good things want to keep doing more of those good things internally, and so they tend to keep driving the business forward. And they have that motivation. They have motivated teams who are being recognized for the work that they're doing, and all of that naturally pushes them forward. So in five years time, they're still leagues ahead of their competitors that are not winning awards. Michael Hingson ** 54:20 So always worth exploring winning awards. Oh, 100% Yeah. If Donna O'Toole ** 54:27 I always say, I think, quote Nelson Mandela on this, you've got nothing to lose. You'll either win or you'll learn. If you don't win, then you should learn something about what you do need to do to win, and that will bring your business on. Michael Hingson ** 54:39 Absolutely agree it's like, I also believe there's no such thing as failure. Failure is really it didn't go the way you planned. And so what do you learn in order to make that not happen again? Donna O'Toole ** 54:51 Yeah, exactly, that exactly. So we need that kind of resilience in business today, Michael Hingson ** 54:57 if people listening and watching this. Just take away one lesson and get one piece of advice out of this. What should it be? Donna O'Toole ** 55:04 Understand your impact? I would say people don't often understand their impact. So ask your customers, ask your employees, what's improved since we've been working together? What? What if? What's improved for you since you've been using our product? And then calculate up what is that impact that you're having? You know, if 90% of your customers are saying that since using your product, I don't know, they're they're they're having a better their their accounts are better, or their skin is better. You whatever it is your product or your service is, then you've got impact that you're having. So start investigating what that impact is, and then that will help to steer you towards which kind of awards you could potentially be winning as well. Michael Hingson ** 55:47 And of course, if you really think about your impact and whoever you are and whatever business you're doing, and you do monitor that, then that's one of the most important things that you can do about your business anyway, and people should be doing that. Donna O'Toole ** 56:01 Yeah, exactly. But probably 90% of people that come to me aren't measuring their impact, and so it's a surprise, but I always say, Well, if you don't know what your impact is, how do you know that what your product or your services works? Just because people are buying it, you still need to know what your impact is. How do you measure impact? Oh, you can measure it in so many different ways, and you want in awards to be able to demonstrate it both quantitatively and qualitatively. So typically, in large corporate organizations, they will be measuring impact. So there's something called net promoter scores. So, you know, they'll be asking customers, would they recommend them? They'll ask them what they're enjoying about their products and things. So they tend to have some kind of measurement built into their process, in their customer departments, however, in smaller businesses, often they don't. So I say, you know, draw up a simple survey, ask your customers what's changed since you've been working with us. Let's say you're a service provider. So are you less stressed since you've been working with us? Do you have more revenue coming in since you've been working with us? What is it? And get them to answer a little survey. And then you could go all this collective impact that you can put together to look at the percentages and see what that's telling you. And if you don't want to know what the impact is in your business, then I question why you don't want to why Michael Hingson ** 57:16 you're in the business in the first place, exactly. Well, tell us about your book. You've mentioned books several times, yeah. Donna O'Toole ** 57:23 So I wrote a book called Win, of course, raise your profile and grow your business through winning awards. And really, it's a toolkit for for entrepreneurs. I was working with a lot of large businesses, and, you know, I was conscious that small businesses don't always have the resources to win awards or to be able to outsource. So I wrote a book that they could use to follow the toolkit, essentially, of winning awards. So that's developing their strategy, knowing understanding how awards work and which ones would suit their business, setting awards goals, understanding criteria. What does innovation really mean? What do they want to see? What kind of evidence do I need to provide? How do I know if it's the right race for me? All of those things. So it takes you end to end, through the awards journey internationally. You know, no matter where you are, you can follow the same process, and you could nowadays, it's really important to become the most award winning in your sector, so you can follow the process to get there. And that's a hugely valuable tagline. Michael Hingson ** 58:26 And I appreciate that you sent us a picture of the book cover, and it is in the show notes. I hope people will go get Donna O'Toole ** 58:31 it absolutely and it is on Audible as well, so that everyone can access it. So yeah, enjoy listening to my voice a lot more. Michael Hingson ** 58:39 I was just going to ask if you read it. I did read it for you. Donna O'Toole ** 58:44 Do you know what it was? I was so proud of that I was more proud of the audible recording than I was of writing at the book. But I don't know why. I think it's because I actually really enjoy listening to books on audio. So I'm quite passionate about listening. I like listening to the actual author's voice, though. So I found I was quite interesting, actually, when I found, when I recorded it, that was quite good at recording audio. The studio guy that I was working with was like, Oh, you're really good at this. We could just drop it words back in if there was a mistake. Michael Hingson ** 59:14 There you are. See, it is so much better to edit today than it used to be, because now it is. It is all electronic, and I, I edit from time to time, just different things and all that I don't we work on not editing the podcast. That is, I don't want to cut out part of a conversation, because it is a conversation, but, but now you can do so many things, like, if there's a lot of noise, you can even filter that out without affecting the camera. It is so cool. Donna O'Toole ** 59:43 Yeah, very, very clever. So, yeah, get it on Audible. There you Michael Hingson ** 59:47 go. Well, great. Well, I hope people will Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and you should get an award for doing it. That's all there is to it. But I really appreciate you being here. And. I appreciate all of you out there listening to us and watching us. Love to get your thoughts. How do people reach out to you? Donna, if they'd like to to talk with you, Donna O'Toole ** 1:00:09 absolutely. So you can con

Episode 361 – Unstoppable Youth Book Author with Tricia Copeland

love american amazon children new york city lord earth master france french new york times kingdom colorado creator speaker japanese development evil italian army pennsylvania youth hospitals high school kentucky harry potter journal fall in love wolf blind chronicles reddit ambassadors thunder falling in love degree stitcher lord of the rings ebooks audible characters unstoppable fairies ratings lexington mm rutgers university world trade center merlin anorexia middle earth herald copeland brie aztec american red cross xyz microbiology nicks book authors hyderabad john kennedy offend embers national federation south georgia book award titania michael h holly black new adult marshfield all times exxon mobile chief vision officer silver award federal express nero wolfe scripps college michael hingson cherry blossom festival rex stout publishers association being me accessibe american humane association patent agent thunder dog hero dog awards

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 12, 2025 58:13

Meet Tricia Copeland. She is an award-winning author of books for youth and young adults. Mostly she writes fantasy books, but as we learn during this episode, she also does write some romance books. Tricia says that as a child she hated writing. Even so, she went to school and eventually she went to college where she received a degree in Microbiology. She also attained a Master's degree. She then went to work for a chemical company. After four years she found herself beginning a journey of technical writing and writing patterns and supporting materials. After a few years Tricia became a stay-at-home-mom for a time. She tells us how she loved to tell stories and entertain her children. We learn how she wrote her first fiction book series in 2015-16 about her time facing anorexia. In real life, she faced this and overcame it. She then began writing fantasy youth books and realized not only that she could write, but that she did not hate writing at all. She has written several series and has plans for more. About the Guest: Tricia Copeland is the critically acclaimed and award-winning author of Kingdom of Embers, To be Fae Queen, Lovelock Ones, and Azreya, Aztec Priestess, and dozens of other titles. She is the host of the Finding the Magic Book Podcast who weaves magical stories about love, courage, and finding your passion. Tricia began her author journey with a women's fiction series, the Being Me series, which is an adaptation of her experience with anorexia. Afterwards she quickly pivoted to her favorite genre, fantasy. Her young adult fantasy series highlight themes including resilience, perseverance, faith, loyalty, trust, friendship, family, and love. They include the Kingdom Journals and Realm Chronicles series that find witches, vampires, and fae fighting an evil spirit determined to end them all. She tempers the high stakes drama in these books with her fun rom coms in the Perfect romance series. Tricia Copeland believes in finding magic. She thinks magic infuses every aspect of our lives, whether it is the magic of falling in love, discovering a new passion, seeing a beautiful sunset, or reading a book that transports us to another world. An avid runner and Georgia native, Tricia now lives with her family and four-legged friends in Colorado. Find all her titles including contemporary romance, now penned under Maria Jane, young adult fantasy, and dystopian fiction at www.triciacopeland.com. Ways to connect with Tricia: https://triciacopeland.com https://www.facebook.com/TriciaCopelandAuthor/ https://www.instagram.com/authortriciacopeland/ https://twitter.com/tcbrzostowicz https://www.tiktok.com/@triciacopelandauthor https://www.youtube.com/@triciacopelandauthor https://www.amazon.com/stores/Tricia-Copeland/author/B00YHN5Q4G https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/14055439.Tricia_Copeland https://www.bookbub.com/authors/tricia-copeland About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Well, hello everyone. We're really glad to have you here, wherever you may happen to be listening in from. We're really glad that you're listening to unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Michael hingson, and our guest today is Tricia Copeland. Tricia is a prolific author. I use that word absolutely without any any concern, a prolific author of children's books, especially in the fantasy world. So she has been doing this a while and and also has an interesting story just of her life to tell. So we're going to go into all of that and delve in and see where we go. So Tricia, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Tricia Copeland ** 02:05 Thank you, Michael, I appreciate you having me, and I do want to make a little edit to that intro. Okay, go ahead. My books are young adult to New Adult books, so ages 13 plus mostly, all right, Michael Hingson ** 02:19 so young adult to new adult. All right, that's fair. So how do you feel that your books fall into the range of things like the Harry Potter series and so on, sort of the same age groups, Tricia Copeland ** 02:40 right? Genre adjacent, I have a series, The Kingdom Journal series, which includes three witches that have to break a curse on the witch lines. So the witches have to find each other as well as figure out how to break the curse using various forms of magic. So not really the same as Harry Potter, but definitely with with the witches, and the kind of contemporary world that Harry Potter is. But actually, I won't say that, because I haven't I think Harry Potter is mostly in the contemporary world, right? I didn't read all the books. I have to admit that he's Michael Hingson ** 03:18 somewhat in the contemporary world, but, but I was thinking more of from a standpoint of the same type of age group. Tricia Copeland ** 03:25 Yes, I think a younger reader. I think people started reading Harry Potter maybe around 10 or 11. And these books have older teenagers to start, age 1718, so 13 Plus is a good indicator. I think the other Michael Hingson ** 03:42 thing I would observe about Harry Potter is that there are a lot of people who aren't necessarily teenagers or young adults, including me, who have read them and enjoyed them. I think that that Harry Potter certainly brought an interesting dimension to reading for teenagers especially, and hopefully young adults, because a lot of people did catch on to them, and they they had a great theme, and you do some of the same sorts of things by virtue of the fact of what you're writing and who you're writing it for, Tricia Copeland ** 04:17 right? They definitely caught adult eyes and hearts and minds too Michael Hingson ** 04:23 well, tell us somewhat about the early Trisha growing up and so on. Love to learn a little bit more about you, and then we can talk about whatever we feel is relevant to talk about the early Tricia, Tricia Copeland ** 04:35 right? Well, I grew up in rural South Georgia, small town in south Georgia, and always loved reading and hiking and the outdoors, and very quickly, knew that maybe I didn't want to be in a small town forever. So I went to college in Atlanta, and I got a degree in microbiology, and from there, I got a master's. Degree, and I started my career in Central Research and Development at a chemical company, a large chemical company. So I was looking at making chemicals from microbes. And that was very exciting. That was my dream job that I'd always wanted. So that was very cool to be able to achieve that goal, and I actually didn't like writing until I started doing more technical writing with papers and patents. Michael Hingson ** 05:29 Technical writing can be boring, but people could make it more exciting than oftentimes they do. I would say I've had to do some of it. I understand Tricia Copeland ** 05:39 well, you have to like the topic, right? If you don't like the topic, you're not going to like the paper, Michael Hingson ** 05:45 right? But also, I think that a lot of technical writers write and it's all very factual, but I think even in technical writing, it would be better if writers could do some things to draw in readers. And I've always felt that about textbooks. For example, my master's degree and bachelor's degree are in physics, and I've always maintained that the the physics people who write these books, who are oftentimes fairly substantial characters in in the genre, if you will, or in the field, could do a lot more to interest people in science and physics by rather than just doing these technical books, telling some stories along the way, and bringing people in and making people relate more to the topic. And they don't do that like I think at least that they should. Tricia Copeland ** 06:36 I guess that can be said, maybe for every technical Yeah. Area, Michael Hingson ** 06:43 yeah, it would be nice if technical writers spend a little bit of time, but of course, then the other side of it is that the industry doesn't want that. So what do you Tricia Copeland ** 06:54 do? It may be a catch 22 on that one Michael Hingson ** 06:56 might be, but that's okay. So how long did you stay working at the tech at the chemical companies and so on? Tricia Copeland ** 07:06 I was in the lab for four years, and then I moved into the patent Legal Group. So I began my career as a Patent Agent, and now that's what I do for a living. My day job is that I help clients draft and file their patent applications. Michael Hingson ** 07:22 So you have your own business doing that. I do, yes, oh, Tricia Copeland ** 07:28 well, I write by day and I write by night. Michael Hingson ** 07:32 Yeah, well, that can be pretty exciting, though. You get all sorts of interesting things to write about. I Tricia Copeland ** 07:40 do I meet a lot of cool people that are inventing cool things. Michael Hingson ** 07:44 So here's the question, do you ever find that what you write about during the day influences you, and you want to use some of that, or the general concepts of some of that, at night, when you're doing your your fiction writing? Tricia Copeland ** 07:58 I haven't done that yet, I did write one dystopian fiction about a viral pandemic, and that touched on a little bit of my background in microbiology and genetics, but not anything that my clients have done Michael Hingson ** 08:19 well. So you got into the patent field when you when you started doing that initially, were you doing it for a company, or did you just leap out on your own and start to have your own business? Speaker 1 ** 08:30 Yes, I was doing that for a company. Okay? And how long did you do that? I was at that company Tricia Copeland ** 08:35 about a year and a half. And at the time, we lived in Pennsylvania and outside of Philly. So then we had a job change, and we moved to Denver, so I took a little time off to be with my kids before I started my business. Michael Hingson ** 08:53 So how long ago did you start the business? Speaker 1 ** 08:57 In 2012 so 13 years doing it a while? Wow, Michael Hingson ** 09:01 okay, and obviously you're having some success because you're still doing it. Tricia Copeland ** 09:05 I am. Yes, I love helping my clients, and feel like I can definitely give them a value add Michael Hingson ** 09:14 if you're not giving something away. What's probably the most interesting patent that you helped somebody work on attaining Tricia Copeland ** 09:24 I will say, I worked with an inventor a year ago, and amazing man, he had had his career in education and teaching, and he developed a set of blocks to help people or Help kids. I should say, learn the parts of speech so you could put the together, the blocks, whether it was a subject, verb, pronoun, noun, adjective, adverb, and I learned parts of speech that I never knew existed from helping them with this application, and I was very excited. To help him get his patent. That's kind of cool. Michael Hingson ** 10:04 Yeah, I am fair. I'm not sure I know all the parts of speech, but I remember being involved in high school well and in elementary school and diagramming sentences and learning a lot about the different or a number of the different parts of speech. Not sure I necessarily remember all of them extremely well, so I probably split infinitives and well, what do you do? Tricia Copeland ** 10:28 Yes, I hated sentence structures. Michael Hingson ** 10:35 Well, so what got you started then, since you were writing patents for people and so on, and helping people in securing patents. What got you then started in dealing with fiction writing, right? Tricia Copeland ** 10:49 Well, when my kids were very young, I was a stay at home mom, and most of my days were spent chasing them around, occupying them, entertaining them, shuttling them from one place to another. So I realized in the evenings I was bored. I did my mind didn't have enough to occupy it. And I was about, I think it was about 38 and, you know, looking at my 40 year old birthday and thinking, huh, well, and I maybe it was like my 20 year high school reunion. I don't know why it coincide coincided, but I started thinking about my early college years I developed anorexia, and thinking about that time in my life and how poignant it was that I was able to recover from that disease and really gain some life skills from that experience. So I started a story that was a fictionalized account of my experience with anorexia and recovering for anorexia. So my first series, called the being me series, is a four book series about a character named Amanda who develops anorexia and then is able to recover. Michael Hingson ** 12:01 So what caused if you understand, or, man, I don't know a lot about anorexia, Anorexia, and probably have some misconceptions about what I'm about to ask, but what, what caused it? Why did you develop that condition? Tricia Copeland ** 12:16 Well, there's a lot of I mean, it happens differently for a lot of people, I think anorexia is a lot about control and having control over your environment. And I got there was a number of factors that I was depressed and not happy about not feeling like I was achieving, maybe what I should be achieving, and instead of someone might have turned to alcohol or drugs to alleviate those stressful feelings. I channeled all that into Okay? Well, if I'm just thin and if I just look good enough, then everything will be fine. And obviously, once your brain starts to get in that cycle, it just compounds on itself. You can't stop yourself from thinking that way. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 13:05 and what helped you get out of doing that? Was it writing or what? What really caused you to realize that ain't the way to go? Tricia Copeland ** 13:16 Yeah, I almost died. That was it very it was a low point. And really, you know, if I didn't do something different, if I didn't let people help me do something different, I would not have made it. So really, you know, a lot of that is like educating people how serious eating disorders are, as well as how helpless sometimes the person that is experiencing them is in being able to help themselves. Michael Hingson ** 13:48 And you said that this happened somewhat in your your college years. Tricia Copeland ** 13:53 Yes, I was 20. Michael Hingson ** 13:56 Were there a lot of pressures were, were people criticizing you in any way that helped contribute to it, or was it sort of really Tricia Copeland ** 14:04 internally? Part of it was internally. Part of it was, you know, what I thought people's expectations I was in. I was at a engineering school and I was a biology major, so maybe that wasn't the best place for me. Everybody was very high in performing. Yeah, yeah. There are many, many factors, I think, and just my my brain that was not processing things, maybe as realistically as they could have been processed. Michael Hingson ** 14:33 But what you eventually did about it was to write a series about it, so clearly you were able to move beyond it, and then, if you will, talk about it, Tricia Copeland ** 14:45 right, right? So I went into inpatient recovery, and then was able to get the help that I needed with therapist and psycho psychiatrist and support groups, and that was a big help. And then, yes, 20 years later, I. Wrote a series about it. Michael Hingson ** 15:02 Well, that's pretty cool. And again, it's I'm always one who admires people who are able to and willing to talk about things. I went to an event last year was the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival, and the Cherry Blossom Festival, which happens every April, is a celebration of American history, and they'll bring people in who have some relationship to an historic event, or who have relatives who were so for example, the great grandson of President Grant was at this event, but one of the people who was there was a former secret service agent who rode in the car behind John Kennedy when he was in Dallas and assassinated, and it took him 45 years to get to the point where he could come out of his experiences enough to start to talk about it, and I just have always admired people who do that. For me, being in the World Trade Center on September 11 and getting out, I never really viewed it as all that traumatic, but I guess it was, but my way to deal with it was, and I realized it much later, but we had so many newspaper reporters who wanted to know about the blind guy who got out of the World Trade Center. I talked about it, I mean, answered everyone's questions. And that was ironically, I love to pick on the media, but ironically, it was the media that really probably helped me move forward from September 11 the most. Tricia Copeland ** 16:41 Yeah, I can imagine that was a lot of processing that you were able to do, as you talked about it. Michael Hingson ** 16:48 People asked all sorts of questions, some really good questions, some not so good questions. And we got to observe all sorts of different types of press people. We had one Italian film crew who came to our house, there were 13 people, most of whom didn't really seem to do a whole lot, but they were there. And then there was a Japanese crew that came. And I think there were two people. It's just amazing what you see and what you learn. And for me and my wife, both now my late wife, but both, both of us love to observe and study and really think about what all these people are doing and how they do it, and we use it as ways to help us learn more about things, if you will, studying and being a student. I think of life as always an important thing, Tricia Copeland ** 17:39 right, yeah, and I guess everybody reacts different to trauma and how you can process that everybody needs a little bit different. But yes, if you could look at things through a learning lens, that can definitely help too. Michael Hingson ** 17:52 So you wrote the being me series. How many books are in that series? Four books, four books. Okay, and so, how long ago did you write those? Tricia Copeland ** 18:03 I published them between 2015 and 2016 Michael Hingson ** 18:07 Okay, did you self publish or I do? Yes, you still do. Okay, great. Well, all right, and then what? What made you decide to then continue and start going into sort of teenage and so on, fiction and fantasy and so on, right? Tricia Copeland ** 18:31 I realized that I just loved writing, and it was something that I didn't want to stop doing. So when I looked around for my next genre to write in, it was very obviously fantasy. For me. I read fantasy from a very young age. I loved Merlin and King authors legends and the Lord of the Rings and all of those books as a young person and a young adult, and that's just what I wanted to write. So my first book, interestingly enough, my editor sent it back to me and said, This is not fantastical enough. You need to make it more paranormal. So it took a minute to make that switch. What Michael Hingson ** 19:15 book was that Tricia Copeland ** 19:16 that is drops of sunshine and it is mirrored off an experience I had. I was a camp counselor at a camp for the blind when I was in I guess after my freshman year of college, and the campers in my story have these extra sensory skills where they can read people's minds. That was the paranormal aspect of my book, and that's not known in the beginning the story to our main character, and then she discovers that these kids have this special talent, and that was how my fantasy books started out. Mm, hmm. Michael Hingson ** 20:00 Then where did it go from Tricia Copeland ** 20:01 there? Then I jumped into the witches with the kingdom Journal series. I developed a character that was a vampire or is a vampire witch hybrid, and so she has a vampire mother and a witch father, but she doesn't know who her father is. She's never met him. And to make things a little bit harder, vampire witch Hyderabad are not allowed, but either the witch lines or the vampires, so both the vampires and the witches got together and said, these beings are too dangerous. We're not going to allow them in our society. And if she's discovered, then she'll be killed. That was the first character, Alina, and she's and to give her just a little more stress, I put her in a human High School, so now she pretends, you know, can't pretend to be a witch. Can't pretend to be a vampire. She needs to be human too. And, yeah, so that was a really fun book to write, and that's the series where the trinity of witches has to come together, so she has to find the other two witches of the Trinity, and they each get to tell their story in the books too. So that's why it's called the kingdom journals. It's a little bit of a journal format, so each character gets to tell their own story as well as telling the overall plot line of the series. How Michael Hingson ** 21:19 do you come up with these characters and create these stories? I mean, it's very imaginative. I wouldn't have thought of it. How do you, and I'm sure other people say that, but how do you create the characters? How does all that Tricia Copeland ** 21:32 work? Yeah, I set out, funny enough, I set out to write a vampire series that was my vampire is my favorite fantasy characters. And I thought, Okay, I'm gonna write a vampire series. It's not you don't want to do it too far out from what most people write or most people think of vampires. But I wanted my vampires to be a little bit different from the other vampires and other series. So I had this idea of making the vampire witch hybrid and her set in a human High School, and what would that look like? And then the challenge? I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with the challenge, but somehow I came up with this curse, and the curse was on the witch line, so it very quickly morphed into more of a witch book and the magical side of things, but the vampire characters are still there, and I explore them a little bit, although not as much as the witches. Michael Hingson ** 22:27 Do you find that the characters essentially tell you what they want to be and who they are and why they do what they do. How much are the characters involved in your writing process? I've heard other authors say that that in some of the fiction things, the characters really create the story Tricia Copeland ** 22:47 they do. I feel like my books are very character driven. So how I usually start with the idea for a character and think of their personality, their challenges, what I want, what themes I want to show with that character and then build the world sort of around that character. So it shows those themes and those character traits and what they're overcoming, either in their personal life or in their their physical life, right? But I do have characters that go off script. In the second book, kingdom of darkness. I have a character who we're not sure if he's a good guy or a bad guy. The main character thinks that he may be trying to delude her into thinking he's good when he's not really good. But I wrote him so well, like he was so nice that I couldn't make him a villain. So he became, I rewrote the story a little bit. I'd written it in my mind, I guess, but I rewrote it a little bit. So he did end up being a villain. And then somehow he got his whole own book, so he gets to star in his whole book after that. Michael Hingson ** 23:54 And does he stay a villain? No, he Tricia Copeland ** 23:57 didn't stay. He didn't was never, I mean, I kind of wrote it so the main character thought he was a villain, but in the end, I didn't make him a villain. Michael Hingson ** 24:06 Well, I like books like that. I yeah, I think that most creatures are generally pretty nice. Tricia Copeland ** 24:14 We would hope so, Michael Hingson ** 24:16 although I don't know that that bears necessarily are overly generally nice to people, but, you know, who knows? Yeah, that doesn't mean they're evil either. Well, no, yeah. Tricia Copeland ** 24:27 I mean, they're just living their life, right? That's they need their food sources. Is just like we need our food sources. So Michael Hingson ** 24:35 I'd rather not be their food source, though, but that's okay, right? Tricia Copeland ** 24:39 Yeah, and I don't know. I do struggle with, like, evil or antagonistic characters, because I'm, I don't like the idea that there's a character that is purely evil for no reason. So that is, that's always a grapple in an author's mind. I think, Michael Hingson ** 24:56 well, and you know, I'll go back to Harry Potter. Modern Of course, we have Lord waldemart, who was definitely evil. But even so, the way she created the characters and the way she crafted the books, which probably in some ways, are similar, just in a process of what you do, it's not necessarily overly graphically evil. Even if there's evil, it isn't so graphic that you you you become totally adverse or against it. Evil or bad things are there, but it's all on how you present it. That's why I like books that are essentially puzzles, if you will, because they leave a lot of things to your imagination, and they give you the ability to as a reader, think about it, but as a writer, you also are essentially drawing the reader in to where you want the reader to go, but, but they're puzzles, rather than just some graphic thing, talking about all these horrible, mean, nasty things that a character may do. Tricia Copeland ** 26:08 That's true, and it's all perspective, right? So the quote, unquote villain in my series is out to destroy all the vampires. But then you meet vampires that are good vampires, right? And you think, Huh, well, maybe this one vampire shouldn't be destroyed, because this vampire is not acting in a mean or hurtful way. So many sides to those questions, Michael Hingson ** 26:33 yeah. Well, so the Kingdom series. How many books are in that one? Tricia Copeland ** 26:38 There are four books in the main series, and there's a prequel to that series, okay? Michael Hingson ** 26:45 And then what happened? What happened after that series? Tricia Copeland ** 26:48 So in the finale, kingdom of war, my witches were going to have this huge battle against a vampire army that the evil witch created to, you know, battle the good witches. Yeah, she put which souls in the vampires. So that made them sort of like super vampires. But anyway, my witches needed an army, and I thought who would be a good character to be, to have an army that can come help the witches. So, yeah, the beings I thought of were fairies, and I created a queen Titania, is her name, who had an army who would come help the witches battle these vampire witch soul hybrid be. And when I created her, she just kind of took on her own character, and I quickly morphed that into what was her backstory, what were struggles? Where was she living? Where would the spay army come from? And that is what kind of launched my realm chronicle series, that the finale is coming out next month. Well, Michael Hingson ** 28:10 that's that's pretty cool, and that that answers, again, the question we talked about earlier. The character actually took over, if you will, the writing, which is always cool, because that really shows how deeply you're invested in the characters and you let them have their voices, right? Tricia Copeland ** 28:26 And I couldn't really give up the characters from my kingdom Journal series. They not, you know, not to give too much away, but they do complete their first quest and but this evil witch who's trying to destroy the vampires is still out there somewhere, so I couldn't completely let them go. So the witches from my kingdom Journal series come into the round Chronicles series, and the fairies and the witches are continuing to help each other. Michael Hingson ** 28:56 Well, that's cool. Well, it's kind of neat to even though it's a new series, and I assume you can read one without reading the other, but still, it's neat that you, you follow on and help to craft and expand the world. Tricia Copeland ** 29:11 It's been a lot of fun. And I, you know, selfishly, I didn't want to let go the characters. I felt like they had a little bit of story left in them, and I was able to do that through the round chronicle series. And yeah, it it was a lot of fun for me to Michael Hingson ** 29:26 write. And now, of course, the question is, will there be a lot more story with them, which is part of the adventure that will come next? Right? Tricia Copeland ** 29:33 Yes, I'm, I'm thinking of that. I put my characters through a lot. So after I finished the finale, I felt like I just had to let them rest. I'm not really sure if I will continue with those same characters or or either pull out some different characters from that book to have their own stories. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 29:54 well, it's, it's going to be an adventure. No question about. It 30:00 definitely so Michael Hingson ** 30:04 with your books. Do you have themes in your books? That is, are you? Are you trying to convey messages? Do you have themes and things that you want people to think about as they go through reading your books? Tricia Copeland ** 30:16 I do. I feel like I like that in the book, and so I kind of embed that in my books too, but it's really more about what is the character grappling with. Not only, like I said in their physical world, maybe Queen Titania is the first female queen in her realm, and some of the old guard, other monarchs are not sure that a female should be able to rule, So that's sort of an out, outside challenge. But she also has inner conflict and challenges where she's not really trusting that she really can do it and she's really supposed to do it, and should she, you know, hand the crown to someone else who may be older or wiser or and so it does she have faith in herself. You know, would sort of be that theme there. And so each of the books have, I mean, it's not like I say, hey, the theme of this book is you need to believe in yourself, yeah, but just showing that the character arcs and how they overcome their challenges. Michael Hingson ** 31:22 How do you again create those? How do you work those in what? What's the process that allows you to to put those themes in and and add them to the book and bring that value out? Right? Tricia Copeland ** 31:37 I guess it's just how, the way I the challenges I choose to put in front of my characters and showing them fail at times, and showing them I do write first person, so you're getting a very up close view of what the character is thinking and feeling at all times. So I think that helps with a little bit of that, knowing that the character is struggling with whatever their um, XYZ, inner, inner turmoil that they're struggling with. And then, you know, just having other characters bounce things off of them, because the character themselves might not realize, hey, I I get anxious when I'm not in control of situations. So, you know, somebody might say, Hey, you're doing this again, stop. Michael Hingson ** 32:29 That's why we have editors, 32:30 right, Michael Hingson ** 32:33 and other people to help well, so you are you, but you clearly talk with your characters and you let them have a voice, which is, I think, something that adds a really great dimension to the writing that you do. And I think it's very important to do that. Tricia Copeland ** 32:51 I hope so. I have very detailed character sheets for each of my characters. I create much bigger back stories than, probably, than really makes it into the books, just to be able to know, like, how my characters will react in situations, what their growth needs to be, where areas that I want to show that growth, and what's most important in their values, And how would they react to all the different challenges? Michael Hingson ** 33:24 What caused you to bring fairies into it again? I think that's pretty imaginative. You were writing about witches of vampire. Fairies are are different. How did that come about? Tricia Copeland ** 33:34 Honestly, I was at a book event, and a person was walking around with these postcards, and they were trying to get authors to write a short story for an anthology, and it had to be a fantasy genre, and it had to be a character with a mental health challenge. But the image on the postcard was of a fairy, and she was hunched in a meadow in these grasses, and she looked kind of anxious or scared, maybe even a little timid or worried. And I thought, Oh, that's a cool image. It was very striking with the green grass and her fairy wings and just her eyes were like had just a lot of feeling behind them. So it caught my eye. I never thought I'd write about fairies. I was looking for the Army for my witches, and I thought, well, you know, the fairies could be like the characters the witches go to. So it was just kind of happenstance that I happened to see this fairy character on a postcard and think, Huh, I could, you know, the fairies could be the answer. Michael Hingson ** 34:44 And turns out, they were, they were Yes. So are all fairies girls? No, okay. Tricia Copeland ** 34:51 I mean, fairies are much like humans in my world, except that my fairies have wings. They in. Middle Earth, which is just below earth. So they share our same bedrock. It kind of mirrors our Earth in my world. And they have rings where they can come back and forth between the fae and the human realm, and they live in our contemporary times. I like those themes of there might be witches, there might be vampires, there might be fairies that walk alongside us every day, and we don't know it. Michael Hingson ** 35:24 And do they know Bill Bo Baggins, since we're talking about Middle Earth, just Tricia Copeland ** 35:29 they do, well, they might have read the book. I don't know that they met him personally. Michael Hingson ** 35:35 Yeah. Well, that's, you know, another, another story, but it's but it's cool. What other kinds of characters are you thinking of for maybe future books, outside of witches, vampires and fairies, Tricia Copeland ** 35:49 right? So I won't give too much away, but no, in order to perform some of the spells that they need to perform in, I guess in two of my books in this series, to be a Fae legend, which is the third book of the series, and to be a Fae which is the finale, The last book of the series. My witches and fairies need to perform these spells. So they need a great amount of power or energy, and they have to assemble different kinds of beings. And in the finale, they have to assemble 12 different kinds of beings. If you try to make a list of different kinds of being, you actually in ones that the witches and the fairies could find in the human realm, like so I had an elf and the werewolves and nicks and selkies like so the Nicks are shape shifters that shift into fish, and then the selkies are shape shifters that shift into now I'm blanking not walruses seals, sorry. So yeah, I had to go find all these different characters. So all of those characters are in this final book, and I I'm thinking of maybe some of those characters that can form a new series. Michael Hingson ** 37:11 So are all trolls, mean, nasty creatures, or, do you know yet, Tricia Copeland ** 37:16 in my series, they are depicted as that? Yes, Michael Hingson ** 37:21 how about gnomes? I don't have any gnomes. Well, there's another one for you to look at down the line. Might be. It might be interesting to see where that goes. Of course. Yep, so you but you have a variety of characters, and I think it's it's great when you have a rich culture of a lot of different characters. And of course, there are all sorts of potentials for conflict or for different creatures to work learn to work together too, Tricia Copeland ** 37:56 right? The Fay historically have not worked with other beings or creatures. They very much kept to themselves and had primary purpose. They think their primary purpose is to protect the humans from all the evil spirits. So that has been their focus historically, and they've shunned other groups of beings based on whether they thought they were descended from the Creator, who's sort of like their god or the creator or the evil one, right? So the Fae believed that the vampires and werewolves, for instance, were created by the evil ones, so they shouldn't associate with those types of beings, and there's a lot of learning in there. I guess you could say it, are we going to partner with these beings, and how? What does that look like? And is that really okay? And can we choose a different path than what our predecessors have chosen? Michael Hingson ** 38:59 And I guess it's sort of pretty clearly, is that they somewhat do that. Tricia Copeland ** 39:06 Yes, they do. And Titania, our main character, is very much the Herald for that type of behavior and that type of community and that type of acceptance Michael Hingson ** 39:23 well. So your next year, your book will be out in July, and then where do you go from there? Tricia Copeland ** 39:31 Yes, so like I said, I'm tossing around ideas for fantasy characters. I also write in the romance genre, so generally, I'll write a fantasy, and then I'll write a romance. I'll switch back and forth between writing those. The past year and a half, I guess I've been focusing on finishing this fantasy series, so I have two romances now queued up that I'm excited about writing, and we'll get to those first. I Michael Hingson ** 39:58 think, hmm. What romances Have you written already? Tricia Copeland ** 40:03 So after the being me series, I started the perfect romance series, which the first book was a little bit different from a typical romance. It has five parts, and it's the same main character, but based on decisions at different times in her life, her life goes off in a different way. So you see her go to France and fall in love with the French man, or you see her take a job in New York City and fall in love with a investment banker. And so you see her in different stages of her life, having made different decisions, but still finding happily ever after. So that kind of kicked off that. And somebody, somebody called it speculative romance at one time, and it's more like make your own story or choose your own ending type of book. But from there, I initially thought I would write like a full book showing each of the happily ever afters with that same character, but I wrote one book showing one happily ever after scenario, but then decided that I would look at all of her friends lives so they all met in college, and they were in this one sorority together. And so I write different books showing the different friends love stories. So I've written perfect. Was the first one perfect, always with Chloe. And then Brie book is a close as close to perfect. And this is still set in Lexington, Kentucky. And then the last one is perfect office pack, which is a enemies to lovers, office romance. Michael Hingson ** 41:51 Now, do you put a lot of sex in your books? I Tricia Copeland ** 41:54 don't know. My books are what's called closed door or fade to black, so you'll see some kissing, but not much more than that, Michael Hingson ** 42:03 and that's fine. And the reason I asked that question was to get to the whole issue of so many people when they're writing, just have to make everything so graphic. There's got to be all this sex and all this other stuff that they put in them. And my view has always been, is that really necessary? And I gather you, you're essentially saying the same thing. And again, it's like detective stories. I love to read a lot of detective stories, but I like the detective stories most that are puzzles. That is, I want to figure out who done it. I don't need all the graphics of how somebody got murdered, or what happened. It happens. You don't need to put all that graphic stuff in to get to dealing with the puzzle. And it's the same thing with sex. You really need all that. Like a lot of comedians, it's all the shock stuff. They got to have all these horrible words, swear words, and everything else but the best comedians, I think most people, if they really study it, will agree, are the ones that tell stories without all that dirty and sex stuff in it. Tricia Copeland ** 43:12 And that's what I like to read and what I like to watch, too. But there are definitely people that enjoy different types of books. Yeah, there are, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 43:21 yeah, I hear you, but I, I would prefer to be able to use my imagination in various things. So one of my favorite detective stories or Characters of All Times is Nero Wolfe, written by Rex Stout, because he he writes in a way where you don't see all the graphic and don't need to see any of the graphic to get the entire picture. He describes enough so you know what's going on, but he doesn't deal with it in a way that would How do I put it? Offend anyone? Tricia Copeland ** 43:59 Right? And I would probably argue that mystery books are would be the hardest to write, I think, because you have to give enough clues throughout so that the reader doesn't think, Oh, I would have never thought that was the villain, but you don't want to put too much in. So it's so obvious who the villain is, right? So I think it's the ways those authors weave those stories are very intricate and thought out and multi layered and impressive to me Michael Hingson ** 44:34 well. And the reality is that sometimes, and again, I'll use Rex Stout as an example, when you find out who did it, or who the bad person was, and Wolf explains it clearly, all the clues were there, but it would be really hard for you to put it together. Now, there have been a few times where there were things that he didn't tell you, that if you if he had said those. Because during the book, you might have figured it out, but mostly the clues are somewhat there, but it is so subtle that I doubt very many people would figure it out, which Tricia Copeland ** 45:14 is, yeah, definitely. Michael Hingson ** 45:17 It makes it so much fun. When that happens, it is. So you're, you're still deciding what you want to do for your next series of books, or what, what the next realm will be, if you will, Tricia Copeland ** 45:31 in the fantasy genre, yes, I'm still deciding which way to go with my next characters. Michael Hingson ** 45:38 Yes, right, but you're going to probably do some romances before you go into those. I Tricia Copeland ** 45:43 am, yes, I was just writing a newsletter to my subscribers. In the last book, I had subscribers pick names for my characters. And so in this book, I thought, You know what? I don't like this character has has only been introduced and very briefly in one of the books, and so she doesn't have a lot of backstory. And I thought, You know what, I can just ask my readers, where do you think she should live? What are her hobbies? What does she like to do? What's her favorite book genre? I thought that would be a lot of fun for my readers to direct some of that. Michael Hingson ** 46:18 And what kind of answers did you get? Did you get a lot of feedback? Tricia Copeland ** 46:22 Like I said, I Well, with the names one when? So I'm just sent out the poll today, new one, but for the name ones, yeah, I would. I got like 100 answers. And then I thought, you know, next time, I won't do the names, because sometimes names are so personal and can vote like a lot of emotion that people get very heated about people's names. Michael Hingson ** 46:47 Now, do mostly women answer? Do you get both sexes answering your questions? It is Tricia Copeland ** 46:52 mostly women, but definitely, maybe 10% male, I would think. And actually, I feel like I have more interaction, and that's mostly on the fantasy side, but I feel like I actually have sometimes more interaction. Maybe, I don't know, maybe this get more passionate about fantasy? Michael Hingson ** 47:13 Yeah, probably so. But you know, there's, there's something to be said for reading a good romance book. I like cozy mysteries as well, and a lot of those are really combinations of mysteries and romance, and the mystery part is oftentimes more straightforward, but it's just the whole book and the putting the entire book together that makes it so much fun. Tricia Copeland ** 47:41 Yeah, those can be a quick, you know, kind of feel good read. I yeah for that genre, yeah, and Michael Hingson ** 47:49 there's nothing wrong with that. It's good to have feel good books occasionally, Tricia Copeland ** 47:54 too. I am all for feel good everything, yeah. Michael Hingson ** 47:58 Well, when I travel, I like to read on airplanes, and I like not to work and do reading that's really related to work, because going and coming from events is really the time that I get to have the most down time once I get somewhere I am on until I am on the airplane coming home. And so it is the way to relax. So I enjoy reading things that will allow me to relax when I'm going and coming from trips or from events, which is so important, I think, to be able to do and I think people should do more of that. It's always worth slowing down some and really letting your mind just wander. Tricia Copeland ** 48:38 Yeah, plane trips are my favorite, because that's I do the same thing. I read on the plane, and I listen to audio books mostly if I'm home, when I'm exercising or when I'm doing chores. But to be able to sit down and read doesn't happen that often. Michael Hingson ** 48:56 What do you like to read most from audio books? What? What genre? Tricia Copeland ** 48:59 Um, exactly what I write, fantasy and romance. Michael Hingson ** 49:03 What's your favorite fantasy books Tricia Copeland ** 49:06 I just finished, and I'm so behind because I don't read fantasy when I'm writing fantasy. So I just finished Holly Black's, the folk of the air series, the cruel prince, I think the cool prince, the wicked king and the queen of nothing. I think they're the three books in that series. So that was really good series. And I'm writing Emily's wild encyclopedia fairies right now. So I just started that get Michael Hingson ** 49:33 a little bit more information on those fairies for a future book. Right? That's that's kind of important to do. So do you produce with I've asked a number of people this, and I'll ask you, do you arrange for audio books to be produced from your series? Tricia Copeland ** 49:53 I do both my fantasy series, The Kingdom journals, as well as the realm Chronicles. I have audio books. Four. I'm a little bit behind in the realm Chronicles. My Narrator had some health problems, so I'm switching narrators. But my new narrator, Tina walls, wolsen craft, yes, I think that's how you pronounce her last name, she will be working on the fourth book in the realm Chronicles series in September. So I'm hoping that will come out in October, and that will be my, my eighth audio book. Michael Hingson ** 50:23 And where can people get the audio books? Tricia Copeland ** 50:26 So the kingdom Journal series is on all platforms, and then the realm chronicle series, the newest series, is on Audible. Okay, Michael Hingson ** 50:37 so and again under your name for the author? Tricia Copeland ** 50:42 Yep. Tricia Copeland, author, the Kingdom Journal series. The first two books are female character, so and now I'm blank. I can't believe I'm blanking on her name. It'll come to me in a minute. Yeah. So I had a female narrator for the first two books, and then the second two books are male Lee main characters. So Dan Delgado did the narration on those and then Jillian Yetter, who was the most amazing narrator for Titania. She even had pink hair, just just like Titania does, a hold of the the cover of the book has Titania is pink hair. So that was really fun to work with her, and we won an award for the second book in that series, to be a fake guardian Michael Hingson ** 51:26 in audio book. Oh, cool. What was the award? It Tricia Copeland ** 51:29 was independent book publisher Association, young adult fantasy, Silver Award. Michael Hingson ** 51:35 Oh, cool. That's exciting. It's always good to have awards. Have you run other awards along the way? Tricia Copeland ** 51:40 I have several Colorado independent book Publishers Association for the first book, kingdom of embers, in the kingdom Journal series, as well as several the global Book Awards for to remember it to be, to be a fake queen, which is the first book in the kingdom journals and as Ray at my Aztec mythology. Michael Hingson ** 52:06 So how many books have you written all together? Speaker 1 ** 52:08 Next month's book will be 23 Wow. Michael Hingson ** 52:13 That is really exciting. Well, I know we're putting in the show notes, the picture of the book cover for the next book. And as I mentioned earlier, if you want to send us other books that you think people ought to read, we'll put those pictures in the the notes as well. I'm glad to have all the pictures you want to share. Tricia Copeland ** 52:31 I will definitely share them. Thank you. Well, Michael Hingson ** 52:34 so is there anything else you'd like all of our listeners and viewers to know or to think about going forward, Tricia Copeland ** 52:42 right? Well, if you go to my website, which is triciacopeland.com, Michael Hingson ** 52:47 and Tricia is T, R, i, c, I A, Copeland, C, O, P, E, L, 52:53 a n, d, l, a n, d.com.com, Tricia Copeland ** 52:56 yes, if you go there, and if you just want to get a trial of my books. If you subscribe to my newsletter, then you can read a free short story fantasy as well as a free short story romance. Michael Hingson ** 53:07 Oh, okay. If people want to reach out to you, what's the best way to do that, Tricia Copeland ** 53:13 they can reach out on direct message, on social media, or my email is Tricia T, R, i, c, I a@triciacopeland.com 53:21 too. Okay, Michael Hingson ** 53:24 then people can, can reach out and and they'll, I'm sure, have all sorts of ideas for you. Tricia Copeland ** 53:31 I love ideas, and I love talking to readers about my books. Michael Hingson ** 53:36 Yeah, I I've written three, and I love getting comments and feedback from people, because I get new ideas and new thoughts. And mine are really all about helping to inspire people and so on. So it's it's always good when people have their their observations, whatever they are. 54:01 I agree. Michael Hingson ** 54:03 Well, anyway, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and I really value your time being here, and I hope people will reach out and and also, more important, get your books and read your books and review them. One of the most important things that all of us who are authors will tell anyone is, please review the books. Please go to places like Amazon and Reddit and so on and review the books, because those reviews are are viewed and paid attention to by so many people. So giving an author, a great review is always a wonderful thing to do. Tricia Copeland ** 54:44 We do appreciate those and thank you so much, Michael for having me. Michael Hingson ** 54:48 Well, it was my pleasure, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching today. We really appreciate it. If you've got any thoughts, I'd love to hear from you, please email me at Michael H i. M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at access, A, B, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, but also go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hinkson.com/podcast, you can see all of our podcasts there, but they're also available wherever you're listening to podcasts and and you can find the most anywhere podcasts are available. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest that you think would make a wonderful guest, and you'd like to have them tell their stories and Tricia you as well, I would really appreciate you introducing us, because we're always looking for more people to have on the podcast, and so please don't hesitate to reach out and don't hesitate to provide introductions, but again, give us a five star review here on unstoppable mindset. We value your reviews greatly, and we really appreciate you doing it. So I want to thank you, Tricia again, for being here. This has been fun, and I think it's really important that people do get a great sense of what you're doing, and I think we've done that, and we're really anxious to see where you go from here. Tricia Copeland ** 56:08 Thank you so much, Michael, I so appreciate it. Michael Hingson ** 56:15 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Episode 360 – Unstoppable Teacher and Resilience Coach with Kijuan Amey

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 8, 2025 69:20

In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset we get to experience a story of a man who demonstrates what real unstopability is really all about. I hope you will be inspired and that you will learn some good life lessons from what you will hear. Our guest, Kijuan Amey grew up around Durham North Carolina. After completing high school, rather than going to college, circumstances brought him to an Airforce recruiter. He scored quite high on his tests which resulted in his recruiter showing him a list of jobs including working as an in-flight refueling expert. The job was demanding, and it requires significant intelligence. After pondering and speaking with the recruiter Kijuan signed up for the job and spent the next 6 and a half years refueling aircraft in flight. In May of 2017 Kijuan was struck by a motorcycle and suffered a significant number of major injuries. Of course, his career as a refueling expert ended. He actually spent the next 3 and a half years healing and eventually deciding to move on with his life. Kijuan describes himself as someone who always likes getting answers and moving forward. This he did as you will discover. You will hear the story of Kijuan Amey in detail. Today he teaches and he is a coach. He also wrote and published a book. What I haven't told you to this point is that one of the things that happened to Kijuan as a result of his injuries is that he lost his eyesight. As he will tell you, however, “I may have lost my sight, but I have not lost my vision”. Kijuan today is a keynote speaker talking to many audiences and helping people to discover how they can move forward with their lives no matter what befalls them. About the Guest: Kijuan Amey, the visionary behind Amey Motivation, hails from Durham, NC, where his journey of resilience and success began. After graduating from Southern High School, he dedicated a decade of his life to the US Air Force, achieving the rank of Staff Sergeant as an In-flight Refueling Specialist. Medically retired, he transitioned into academia, earning a degree and founding Amey Motivation LLC. Formerly served as the vice president for the Carolina regional group of the Blinded Veterans Association, Kijuan is also a mentor and ambassador for the Air Force Wounded Warriors program. Beyond his remarkable military career, Kijuan is a man of many talents, boasting over 25 years of drumming expertise, onstage acting, and now, an upcoming bestseller, “Don't Focus on Why Me.” However, life took an unexpected turn on May 5th, 2017, when a motorcycle accident claimed his eyesight. Yet, as Kijuan profoundly states, “I may have lost my sight, but I did not lose my vision.” Now armed with an inspiring story of overcoming adversity, Kijuan has become a motivational force, empowering others to reach their highest potential. Whether addressing a crowd of 1,500 or engaging in one-on-one sessions, Kijuan is well-equipped for any speaking engagement. He's not just a speaker; he's a catalyst for transformation, ready for the task ahead! Contact him at (919) 641-8150 | kijuan@ameymotivation.com | AmeyMotivation.com Ways to connect with Kijuan: Website: ameymotivation.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kijuan-amey-783889121?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/167F8mGMfR/?mibextid=wwXIfr Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kijuanamey?igsh=NmZtNHRqbW1meWNy&utm_source=qr About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi, everyone. I am Michael hingson, and you are listening and or watching our podcast. Unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And for those who may not really understand all of that, we start with inclusion, because if you talk to diversity people, they typically leave out any discussion of disabilities, and today, especially, that gets to be important, because our guest Kijuan, Amey, is blind, and I, of course, as many of you probably know also, am blind, and so we're going to talk about blind, and who knows what else we'll we'll get into all sorts of adventures. There's another thing that Kijuan and I have in common, and he doesn't even really probably know about it, and that is that in my book thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog, and the triumph of trust at Ground Zero, there's a section called guide dog wisdom. And in the section of guide dog wisdom, number two, the main point of that one is, don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. And that was published in Thunder dog anyway, we'll talk about whatever comes along. But Kijuan, I want to welcome you to doing a stoppable mindset, and thanks for being here. We're glad to have you, Kijuan Amey ** 02:42 Michael, I truly appreciate you allowing me to come on your platform and share my story. Michael Hingson ** 02:47 Well, no allowance necessary. It is all all about people conversing and telling their stories and why they do what they do, and showing that they're unstoppable, so that we can show everybody else that they're unstoppable as well, or really ought to consider themselves more unstoppable than they think. But anyway, we're glad you're here, and looking forward to having a great conversation with you. Why don't we start by you going back and telling us kind of about the the early years of Kijuan, the early years of Yeah. Let's start with the beginning. You know, you know, like they, they always say you gotta start at the beginning somewhere. So might as well start at the beginning. Kijuan Amey ** 03:29 Yeah. So back in the 90s, born in Durham, North Carolina, where I was, of course, raised there as well. I don't live too far from there. Now, honestly, I'm only maybe 2530 minutes from there, so I still consider myself right here in it. Michael Hingson ** 03:48 And of course, having grown up in Durham, you must be a major basketball fan of some sort. Kijuan Amey ** 03:55 What? Why would you say that there's no basketball around here? What Michael Hingson ** 03:58 are you talking about? Yes, 25 miles away from you. Yeah, I am definitely a, a Kijuan Amey ** 04:04 true Understander of the rivalry UNC versus Duke. Okay, oh gosh, and and then I might be from Durham, but I'm actually a UNC fan. Michael Hingson ** 04:16 I was in Carolina once and Northern Carolina, North Carolina in Durham, several years ago to do a speech. And we came in on a Thursday night, and I got to the hotel was pretty tired, but I thought I would unpack and watch TV. And at the time, there was a show on CBS called without a trace. I kind of like the show, so I turned it on, and at eight o'clock, when without a trace was supposed to come on, there was suddenly an announcement that says that without a trace will not be seen tonight, because we're going to be presenting live the basketball game between North Carolina State and University of. North Carolina to see which one is going to go to the chip college championships. And so if you want to watch without a trace, you can watch it Sunday morning at two in the morning. I wasn't going to do that, but anyway. But anyway. So yeah, the basketball. It runneth hot there, obviously, Kijuan Amey ** 05:22 yeah, so it's pretty interesting. There is a meme for those who understands what that is, but it's a depiction. There's North Carolina State, Duke and UNC, all standing on top of a mountain, all of the mascots, and North Carolina State says, I'm going to do this one for my team, and they jump off the mountain. And then UNC says, and I'm going to do this one for my team, and then they kick Duke off the mountain. Michael Hingson ** 05:59 Listen, I'm telling you, man, it is serious around I know it is really serious. It's so serious. So, yeah, Kijuan Amey ** 06:05 no, I grew up in a UNC household, um, grandmother, mother, I mean, dad, hey, listen, if you they even worked at Duke and still were UNC fans. It's just the way it was, you know, and it's hard to when you grew up in it was hard to go against, you know, Unc, when they have such a amazing teams with Michael Jordan, Antoine Jameson, all these guys that came through there, you just like, gosh, these guys were really great. And so it's just one of those things. But, you know, kind of growing up with that lifestyle, you had the two games during the season, and you you hope they met in the in the in the ACC tournament, right? Because you wanted to see if there could be a clean sweep, well. And so this past year, Duke got to sleep. They rightfully, rightfully so, because their star player is going to be drafted number one this year. So they rightfully got it Michael Hingson ** 07:12 another year. I was in brether County, Kentucky to do a speech, and it was the day of the NCAA championship. So one of the two teams was the what Wildcats of Kentucky, and I forget who the other one was, but I was to do a speech that started at 6pm and I was told it was at a high school. And I was told this speech has to end absolutely latest, at 6:30pm because by 631 the gym will be completely closed and and everyone will be gone because everyone wants to go home and see the Wildcats. Well, I did the speech. I ended it at 630 and everyone was gone. By 631 they were flooding out. Boy, I couldn't believe how fast they all got out. I'm Kijuan Amey ** 08:09 telling you. Man, those, what we call them is blue, blue bloods, yeah, and these are the big, the biggest, you know, college teams that that impact that sport. So for basketball, of course, you got your UNC, your Duke, your Kentucky, your Kansas, those types of teams, you know. And football we already know is kind of shifting a little bit, but hey, it's just the way it is with all this nio money now. So yeah, and that's kind of what's going on nowadays. You got to have some money. And the difference between UNC and Duke, one's a private school and one's public. There you go. Well, so tell us. So tell us more about you. Yes. So me, besides me being a Tar Heel fan, I personally, you know, went after high school, graduated from Southern High School here in Durham, and then went on to the United States Air Force. I actually was going to consider going to North Carolina State, but it was not to become a fan. It was because they had one of the better engineering programs in the state, and better than UNC, huh? UNC doesn't really offer engineering. They offer computer science. And I didn't want that. And the computer science is kind of boring to me, yeah? And I mean, I'm just being honest, yeah, that's okay. And so I wanted to do either software or computer engineering, and the two best schools in the state were North Carolina State University and North Carolina agriculture and Technical State University, which we shortened for North Carolina A and T. So those two schools are the best here in North Carolina, which actually get a lot of great funding for engineering. Yeah, by the way. So yeah, that was what I was planning on doing, but there were admission hiccups. And so I said, you guys can have your admission hiccups. I already can't afford you. Anyway, I'm gonna take a different route. And so I have a really heavy or, shall I say my family has a really heavy background in the military, and mostly navy. Jeez, maybe seven, I think maybe six or seven Navy members, and then one army, one Marine, one went from the Navy to the Coast Guard. And then you have me, who kicked off the Air Force journey, and then my youngest brother is now carrying that torch, so he's out there in Italy. Man, I'm a little jealous about it. It's okay. I never got to see Italy. It's all right. It's all right. But anyway, I went into the Air Force and became an in flight refueling specialist. So what does that mean? Exactly, yeah, yeah. That's what I was getting into. I can't just say it without not telling so what that means is, I do refill aircraft, but I do it in the sky. It's basically like airplanes pulling up to a flying gas station, Michael Hingson ** 11:28 which can be very tricky, tricky. Kijuan Amey ** 11:30 That's a That's an understatement of the year. It's dangerous the first so when I was going through school, the first warning that they had in the book says flying two planes in close proximity is inherently dangerous. You think there's no way that's possible. No couldn't be Who are they telling this to? Like, man, it's almost like a five year or five year old needed to read that or something. So I'm just like, okay, the way to scare me. Appreciate it. And anywho I did that job for on paper, 10 years, three months and 17 days. That's how long the military counted. I Yeah, say, six and a half Michael Hingson ** 12:22 years now. Why did you decide to do that, to go into the military? No to to become an in flight? Oh, Kijuan Amey ** 12:31 that's because, well, first, yeah, yeah, you're right. That's a good question, because I had no clue that even existed. Didn't even know until my recruiter showed me, because I scored so high on the ASVAB, he said, I gotta show you something. And I was like, Okay, what is it? And so, you know, when you're going into the military, you're kind of skeptical about them trying to sell you a dream. And you know, so I'm like, and again, I have plenty of military families, so they're all telling me about this. They're like, don't let them sell you no dream. Make sure you pick a job before you go to basic training, because you don't want to go in open general and all this stuff. I said, okay, cool. Well, when he shows me that video, I start giggling. I said, Okay, all right. And he's like, what? I'm like, yeah, that's pretty cool. But what's the actual job you're going to show me? And he's like, this is the job as it that looks like a video game, man. He's like, he was like, I know it's crazy, but you qualify for it Michael Hingson ** 13:40 now. What, what, what characteristic did you have, or what was the scoring on the test that made you qualify for that? Kijuan Amey ** 13:49 I don't know what the exact cutoff is, but I score an 87 on my ASVAB out of 100 so that's that's high. Um, you needed a 50 to get into the Air Force. And I scored the 87 and he was so happy and elated. He called me as soon as he got my score. Not like, waited a day or two, no, he called me as soon as he saw the opening of the email. And he was like, When can you come in? That's all he said to me. He didn't say nothing else on the phone. And I was like, um, I could be there tomorrow. He was like, I'll be here. I said, okay, but anyway, that's literally how excited he was. He didn't even tell me why until I got there, so I had no clue, until the day I arrived in his office, and he was, he pulled out this stack of papers that he had stapled together, which was a was jobs, listing of jobs. And it was like eight pages, front and back, listings. And I'm like, Okay, what is this? And then I get close to it, I read. And I'm like, Oh, these are jobs. He's like, Yeah. He's like, go ahead. You flip through him, if you like. And I'm flipping through he's already started highlighting some and I knew there was something I wasn't gonna do. I mean, there was one of them that wasn't highlighted that I thought I wanted to do, which I'm glad I didn't, because I told it basically been me working on, like, Humvees and trucks and stuff. And he was like, You are way too smart for that. I said, okay, but that's what I know. That's what I just came out of high school doing, you know, because I went to a high school that had vocational trades and stuff. So I loved cars, I still do, and worked on mine until, literally, I couldn't see anymore, and so, you know, slowly becoming a lost trait. But hey, somebody's got to do it anyway. Yeah, that's how I got into that job. He showed it to me on a computer screen, and I was like, What the heck he's like, I've never, I said I'd never seen this before. He's like, you're not gonna see it as a civilian, because only the military does. Michael Hingson ** 16:09 So why is it the military essentially said you did it six and a half years and you said you did it as 10. Kijuan Amey ** 16:14 No, opposite. I said I did it six and a half. Oh, okay, rather, okay, 10, right? Because that was the day they retired me, the six and a half is the day I had my injury, and I never showed back up to work. Basically, what was your injury? My injury was a motorcycle accident where a car pulled out in front of okay, yeah, yeah. Sustained my eyes, my eyesight loss, traumatic brain injury, PTSD, spinal cord injury, broken, both legs, everything. What do you want to know? The only thing that didn't get, I guess you say, didn't have a surgery on was my arms Michael Hingson ** 16:55 got it, but they, but they kept you in essentially, well, you were, you were in the military, so you stayed in while you were healing, or what? Kijuan Amey ** 17:06 Yeah, so it, what happened was the reason it took so long, nobody really knew what to do with me and I, and I'll get you to why, or an understanding of why. So I did four years active, but now, at the time of my accident, I'm a reservist. I'm not active duty anymore. So fortunately for me, I was on an active duty, or in an active status, is what we call it, in the reserves, because I was in a travel status that day of my accident because I had to work that weekend, and on the day, which was May 5, 2017 that was my travel day. Okay, thankfully, because had it been may 4, 2017 I wouldn't have any of this, literally just one day. Wow. And so they were trying to figure out how to process me. They didn't know what to keep me, to let me go, to drop me off a cliff, like they didn't know what to do. And so as we were trying to file every piece of paper known to the what do you call it? DOD, Department of Defense. We had no clue what to do. Medical didn't know what to do. My leadership didn't know what to do. I definitely didn't know what to do. I mean, I never dealt with an injury, you know, or seen anybody deal with an injury, especially as substantial as mine. Yeah, of course, you were in the hospital. Well, even after getting out of hospital, you know, we were still dealing with this the whole entire time until I got retired, you know, up until the point where they eventually put me, it's kind of like they were trying to out process me with an honorable discharge, but they saw that he has an injury, so we need to get him some, you know, stuff done, and then he put me on a casualty report, and which means, you know, I was very badly injured. That's basically all that means. And that put me on a another piece of or or track, shall I say, which got me connected to a headquarters in Randolph Air Force Base in San Antonio, which is the Air Force Wounded Warriors Program. Now, when they saw my name pop up on the casualty report, they called me, and I'll never forget Connie Sanchez's voice, because I was like, What the heck is this? But she said, Hi, I'm Connie Sanchez calling from the Air Force winter Warriors Program, and I was trying to reach a key one Amy. And I'm like, You're who from where, because I had never heard of a program. Mm, hmm. So are you trying to in today's society, the scams that go on, you know? Yeah, I don't know what's going on. Who you? Who are you from? Where I'm I've been been in the Air Force for a while now. I've never heard of an Air Force. When the Warriors program, what are we talking about here, you know? And so she's doing her best to explain it to me and keep me from from being skeptical, as she says, I saw you pop up on a casualty report list, and we help airmen who have been wounded, ill or injured, you know, and and I said, Okay, well, what do you what are we we talking about? Like, what are mean you supposed to be talking about? She's like, Oh, I'm gonna help you get medically retired. I say, you gonna help me who? These are the words I've been looking for. You know, you gonna help me do what? Oh, I'm gonna help you get medically retired. I said, Where have you been for the last three years? And so anyway, that's how that whole thing got started. The ball started getting rolled to get Michael Hingson ** 21:14 rolling so you were injured in 2017 Yeah. What was your attitude like after the injury? How? How did you move forward, or what? What were you thinking? Was it? Were you? Were you just totally devastated? Did you think you're going to just off yourself, or what? Kijuan Amey ** 21:38 Well, let me preface by saying this, I told you I had a traumatic brain injury. The damage to my brain is most severe in the frontal lobe. The frontal lobe houses a lot of emotions, and so yes, there was devastation, yes, there was sadness. Yes, there was, well, what am I going to do now? Yes, there was anxiety, there was anything you can think of anger because of the guy who hit me or pulled out in front of me. Shall I say? You know, there was so much that was going on at one time, because, you know, I'm stuck in the hospital for, oh, by the way, I was at UNC hospital. Okay, so that's pretty cool. Uh, that I'm a Tar Heel Fanning and I got, you know, Life Flight of the UNC hospital. But back to what I was saying, there's so much that was going on that one time, because I'm stuck at a hospital for two months now, granted, the first month I know nothing about. I was in a medically induced coma for the first month, so from May 5 until June the sixth. Don't ask me any question. You know what? I mean, I literally know nothing, because that's when I came to I came out of my medically induced coma, and so I'm just trying to figure out where I am. I cannot see already, like my vision was already gone. This is not a gradual loss, as some might think or might be wondering. I could not talk at the time because my jaw had been broken, so they wired it shut to keep me from damaging it any further then I didn't realize it yet, but I also could not smell, and the reason I didn't realize it is because I could breathe just fine. The only time I noticed I couldn't smell is when some is when somebody said, Man, you smell that? It smelled good? No, no, I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. What What smells good, you know? Or if I you know, yeah, something smell bad. I don't smell it. What are you talking about? And so anywho, um, all of these different things are going through my mind, and even after I was told what happened to me, because I, of course, don't remember. I have no recollection of the accident. So after they told me what happened now, I am sitting there with these thoughts in my head for basically, I don't know, 12 hours because I stopped talking or communicating with anyone after that, and I just wanted to be alone. Because, as the saying goes, I just got hit with a ton of bricks. Yeah, you know, so I'm literally going through all the emotions, the sadness, the net, the potential, thought of never being able to see again, never being able to fly again, refill again, see my, my girlfriend, see my, my nieces, nephews, a family, uncle, anything possible. My, I don't even have kids. I never get to see them, you know. So it's. It was one of those things. And I, I mean, I took a lot of pride in the things that I saw, because it was things that a lot of people would never see. And this is also why, you know, on some of my social media, when I did do air refuelings and things of that nature, or or went to really nice locations, or even some that weren't so nice. I would take pictures and post it, because some people will never get to see this. Yeah, so I want you to live vicariously if you want to say it through me, they're like, man, that's cool. That video, that was awesome. You you did the other day. Hey, I appreciate it, man. Hey, it's my job, you know? It's just what it is. It's all part of the Michael Hingson ** 25:49 game, you know. And all that was taken away Kijuan Amey ** 25:53 Exactly. And so when I tell you I used to have and I wouldn't even be sleep, I would be daydreaming, and could see so vividly, like airplanes that I used to refuel, like the F 22 Raptor, the C 17, you know, it's it's things like that. The views I used to have looking down at the ocean from 20,000 feet in the air, looking down at the coastline, flying over the North Carolina and Virginia border, where you can see literally go from land to water to land, because there is a tunnel that goes underneath the water for ships to pass over, I could literally see that stuff from the air and to now go from not seeing that ever again, the thoughts that you sit with were just like beating me up alive. And so I finally had to come out of crazy mode, because that's what it makes you do. It makes you go crazy when you do think about all these thoughts. I had to come out of that mode, because if I didn't, I probably would have really went crazy. And I finally started asking all the questions to get answers, instead of trying to formulate my own questions that I had no answers to. And so that is what you know, got me the information and how the accident happened, where I was, where I was coming from. I do remember the day that I had before that, like not not may 4, but like what I was doing before I had the accident. I do remember all of that, but the thing is, when it came up to the accident, I don't know nothing about it, it's like it completely erased that entire moment. And that's a protective mode that your neurological system does for your brain. So it's so, it's so. It's so empowering that your your mind, can do something like that. But it's also a benefit, because I would never, I do not want to relive that dream or that nightmare, shall I say, over and over. Right? Michael Hingson ** 28:22 But you made the choice to move on, to get out of the crazy mode. What? What caused you to do that? Just you decided enough was enough, and it's time to move on, or what? Kijuan Amey ** 28:39 No, I'm a man of answers. I need answers so. So when I think the military kind of did that to me too, but I've always been that guy who asked questions to you, even when I was younger, I was at, man, will you just sit down and we'll get to it, you know? So the military made it worse, because I became an instructor, and as an instructor, you tend to ask questions, so you can see what the person is thinking, how they're thinking, you know, making sure they're processing the information correctly. And so I am now doing that to everybody. I've put my instructor hat back on, and I'm going to asking questions that I need to know the answers Michael Hingson ** 29:21 to so, how long after the accident, did you start doing this? Kijuan Amey ** 29:25 Oh, no, this was a Maybe the day after I woke up from my medically induced coma. Okay, so, so the day I was informed of the accident, which was June the sixth, when I woke up out of my medically induced coma because I hate the panic button, basically not being a receipt or talk, you know what I mean? So, so I needed to figure something out, and that's when I asked the question, Well, what happened to me? Or what is the question I asked was, What? What is this motorcycle accident dream you guys are talking about? Because somebody, it was just people in my room talking, right? And they were like, Oh no, that's not a dream. That's what happened to you. And that was when I went into that shutdown period. And how long were you in that period? That was, that was the like, 12 to 16 hours or so that I didn't talk okay? And so the next day, June the seventh, is when I was like, hey, hey, I need to find something now. And that's what happened to me. What really happened? Michael Hingson ** 30:30 So when that occurred? So now, on the seventh of June, did you just basically decide fairly quickly you got to move beyond from this, or did? Was it devastating for a while? Kijuan Amey ** 30:44 Yeah, no, that's when the devastation and stuff really kicked in, because it made me say, What the heck, man, like, you know, somebody did this to me, you know, and I can't get back, none of that stuff. Yeah, that was taken away from me. I have all these different parts inside of me. I got metal plates in my head, screw rods and screws in my back, rods in both legs, a screw in my foot, like I even have two different sized feet now. Michael Hingson ** 31:16 So how long was it before you started to decide you gotta go off and do something else with your life, and you're not gonna just let all of this rule you Kijuan Amey ** 31:28 let's see when, when did that kind of transfer that it took me a little while, because I had to get acclimated to the new right life, you know, at first. So I think that would be around maybe I know I went on my first plane ride as a visually impaired person in 2018 So December of 2018 I went to my first blind rehab center. Where was that? In Tucson, Arizona. Okay, okay. The one for the V The VA has a couple of them. I can't remember how many it is, but that was the one I went to, because that was the first one to accept. I didn't want to go to the one that was closest to me. I've been to Georgia. It's okay. I wanted to go somewhere I haven't been, you know what I mean? And not no no shot at Georgia. I just wanted to go somewhere different, you know, yeah, and so that's what I did. And at first I wanted to go to Mississippi, but they took way too long to respond. And so anywho, I'm trying to get this done today, not next year, you know. And so I went there from December of 2018 until February of 2019 okay, I'm a pretty fast learner, and everything, when you go to those to the VA blind rehab centers, is at your own pace. You're fully embedded like you know, you're there the whole time. You got a room, you got everything, so they fully submerge you into this program, and you leave when you're ready. And so it only took me, and it wasn't even a full two months, is but, but I say two months because December to February, but anyway, I learned what I needed to learn, and I got out of there. I even learned stuff that I didn't know I wanted to learn, like copper tooling, wood working, you know, what's the other one? What's the leather? What's when you do leather? Yeah, but yeah, I I've even done stuff with leather, and that's so cool. It's pretty cool to do that stuff, but, yeah, I did all of that stuff, man. It's amazing. And, you know, come back home to show everybody what I learned, and they're like, Wow, you're like, a whole nother person. I said, Well, you know, I did pick up few things. And so once I got that under my belt, you know, the ability to know how to navigate, I still was not, like, really stable, because I hadn't. I hadn't, I didn't start lifting weights, or, you know, doing any like physical training, training, like legitimate training, until right before the pandemic, I was going to the YMCA and swimming, because, as we know, swimming is a full body workout, and so I was hitting the lap pool with a recreational therapist. And so what, man, that was the worst when that pandemic hit in March of 2020, yeah, because, trust me, I'll never forget it. That was when everything was looking up for me. I was like, Oh, this is so amazing. I'm I'm getting stronger, you know? I'm able to move a little bit better, get more confident in my life. And then, bam, shut everything down. I said, What? We can't go out. Wait. Everything's closed. Oh, okay, it'll only be two weeks. Oh, okay, that's okay. I could wait for two weeks. That's not that bad, yeah, but it'll be another month. Well, you said three months, six months, okay, I don't like this. So yeah, that's when everything started to come down. But then it went back up in 2021 Michael Hingson ** 35:25 Yeah, later in 2021 it started to lift Kijuan Amey ** 35:28 Well, I mean, for me, for me in 2021 it was when I started actually working out by actually lifting weights again. Michael Hingson ** 35:38 Now, were you still in the military? Swimming? Were you still in the military at this time I Kijuan Amey ** 35:43 retired? Or was literally, uh, like, officially, medically retired, June 3, 2021, but again, I had not been to work since May. No, I understand 17, you know. So there's nothing that I'm doing at work. And when I did go down there, it was just kind of the just kind of a visit and hang out with those guys for the day. Michael Hingson ** 36:07 You mean, they wouldn't give you a long cane and let you go ahead and continue to refuel aircraft, because you could just find the the appropriate place with the cane. They Kijuan Amey ** 36:15 they would have had to switch it to the left hand, because I'm left handed, and they and they make you do that with the right hand, that refueling side, I'm way better with my left hand. Well, but hey, I would have gave it a shot, but, but Michael Hingson ** 36:29 you don't move, yeah, but you, but you, but you had to make along the way the decision that you were going to move forward, which is what it sounds like you, you were doing. And certainly by June of 2021, when you retired and and so on, you made the decision that you were going to do your best to continue to to advance and do something else with your world. Oh Kijuan Amey ** 37:00 yeah, yeah, no. I mean, the pandemic actually was a part of good and bad. I mean, yes, it made me upset because they kept pushing the timeline and stuff back. But October of 2020, that's when I started writing my book. So that was in the pandemic. I started writing my book. You know, I learned how to use a computer again in September. And then once I got that down pack, hey, I'm going to the next thing. What's the title of the book? Don't focus on why me. From motorcycle accident to miracle. Got it Okay, so that's the name of it. Yeah, that's the name of it. And, excuse me, like I said, I wrote the book, or started writing the book October 2020, but I wanted to publish it in May of 2021, because of the accident. You know, the accident was in May. I wanted to publish the book in May. Well, it didn't quite happen like that, because timelines get pushed back, because you got to get an editor, you got to get a book formatter, you got to get it covered. Oh, it was taking a long time. And so anywho, it got published in June of 2021, which is my entire retirement month. So I was okay with it. I retired and I published a book, a self published, by the way, a book in June of 2021, which is a big month for me, so I celebrate both good Michael Hingson ** 38:32 so you did that, yep. And were you? So you got retired in June. And when, what did you decide to do? Or when did you decide to find work? Kijuan Amey ** 38:47 Well, I don't, I don't really consider what I do work, and I'll tell you why, so as we will from what you're about to find out, I am the proud founder, and I call myself a chief motivational officer, not a CEO of Amey motivation. Now Amey motivation, I do keynote speaking motivationally based most of the time, and then I also am a trusted mentor and a resilience coach. So I don't feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm actually doing a service and giving back, right? I'm sorry, go ahead. No, I agree with you when I'm when I when I said a job, I kind of put it in air quotes, but anyway, I got you, but yeah, no, that's how I feel in my, you know, giving back. Because I almost feel like this is a type of ministry, a type of healing, a type of journey that not only benefits me, but benefits others. And it doesn't even feel like I'm working when I do this stuff. It just feels like I'm having a conversation. It feels like I'm building. It feels like I'm helping others, you know. And I. I couldn't even dare say that I feel like I'm working, and it's not even because I'm making good money. It's not because people are paying me, it's not because I travel to do this. It's because I really just don't feel like this is work, sure. Now, when I was in the military, that was work, you know, that felt like work. But this really does not. It's enjoyable, you know, and that's the beauty of it. And I love what I do. Michael Hingson ** 40:34 But when did you decide to start motivating people? Kijuan Amey ** 40:38 Well, that started back before the pandemic, too. And my first speech, like official, big speech, shall I say, anyway, was May of 2019, that's when I came out and told everybody, you know, kind of what, what happened to me, my story. Because, you know, everybody was hearing what happened to me on Facebook. I can't stand when I see a post of something bad happening to somebody on social media. Let me tell my story. And so that's what I did. And the title of that, that, uh, that speaking engagement, was, why not me? And everybody, I'm sure, was like, Wait, what the heck? Why is it called that? And I said, you're gonna have to come in to find out. You know, so anywho I told my story, and I do have a snippet of it on my website, Amy motivation.com Michael Hingson ** 41:33 and Amy is spelled, a, yeah, Kijuan Amey ** 41:36 A, M, E, y, right. So, you know, I did tell my story about just being the vulnerable side of what happened to me, how I feel, how I got through it, what I went through, what I was dealing with, you know, and man, when I tell you it was, you could literally hear a pin drop, and we were on carpet. Okay, so it was so quiet in there. Everybody was very attentive. It was a packed house, to say the least. There was not one empty seat, except for behind me, because, no, I didn't want anybody behind me. I wanted everybody to be out front. And so that was the only spot where there was an empty seat. I had people on the right side of me, people on the left side of me, people in front of me, everywhere. And so anywho you know, it was just an amazing speech and an amazing time, because a lot of people there, I knew some people I didn't, but a lot of people there I knew. And after they heard it and came up and talked to me after the speech, they were like, Man, I didn't even know you were going through that. I didn't even know this happened to you. I didn't even know that happened. I said, that's why I had to tell it, because what y'all are hearing on Facebook is partially true, and it's part of the story. It's not the whole story. Let me tell the whole story. So yeah, that's where all that started. I also did before that speech. I also did a couple of talks at high school, local high schools in Durham too. So my high school, Southern high school, my alma mater, another local high school called Jordan High School. So yeah, you know, just different things like that, Michael Hingson ** 43:31 but you still ultimately were the one that you made the choice to do it. You made the choice to move on, which is so cool, because I can think of any number of people who, if they had the same sorts of things happen to them that happened to you, would give up, and you clearly did not, Kijuan Amey ** 43:50 absolutely not. I think the hardest part for me is I can't sit down. Yeah, so, so me giving up is basically like me sitting down so and I can't do that. I'm like a person like the Energizer Bunny. As soon as you put a battery anywhere near me, I'm gone Michael Hingson ** 44:09 well, and it's so much more rewarding to do that, I know for me after the World Trade Center attacks and so on, and we started getting calls asking me to come and talk about September 11 and what people should learn. My wife and I decided that selling life and philosophy was a whole lot more fun and rewarding, which is really probably the biggest issue, rewarding psychologically, was much more rewarding than selling computer hardware and managing a computer hardware sales team, which is what I did. So, yeah, it became also a a path and something that was worth doing. And I agree it, it is. It isn't work, right? Not. Not in the same way, but that is also in part because we've chosen to structure it and make it work that way, that it's not work. Kijuan Amey ** 45:09 Yeah, yeah. You know what is. By the way, I love your story. I did hear it on another podcast that I listened to, who that I was interviewed by. And so the the so the day of the World Trade Center and the attacks, the plane that I used to fly on the KC 135 was actually the first plane to come check it out. That was the actually the first plane to come report what had happened, because it was one already airborne, nearby, and then when they look, they loop back around, and they were like, wait, the second one's on fire. Yeah. When did that happen? Like it was basically just like that. There was a Michael Hingson ** 45:52 Air Canada flight. We met, well, I didn't. My wife did. Met the pilot. We were out in San Francisco, and I was doing a presentation, and she told me about it after the speech, but she said she was coming down on the elevator, and there was a pilot from Air Canada, and they got to talking, and she explained why she was there and what what we were doing. And he said that his plane was the first passenger plane over the world trade center after things happened. And as she said, the FBI must be, have become one of your favorite friends, right, or one of your best friends? And he said, Yeah, they sure did. But Kijuan Amey ** 46:38 I don't want to get that knock, Michael Hingson ** 46:40 but it's but it is a choice, and yeah, for for us, the other part about it was that the media got the story, and I feel so blessed, ironically, given how everybody likes to abuse reporters in the Media, but I got so many requests for interviews, and clearly it made sense to do what we could to try to educate and help people move on from September 11, so we accepted the interview requests. And for me personally, what I really learned is something, well, I kind of rediscovered and it got reaffirmed, was that, in reality, talking about something that happens to you like that is the most important thing, because talking about it gives you the opportunity to think about it and move on. And I got asked so many different questions by reporters, some intelligent, some not some in the middle. But the bottom line is that by talking to literally hundreds and hundreds of reporters, that made me talk about it, which was a very good blessing by the time all was said and done, Kijuan Amey ** 47:54 right, right, instead of internalizing, yeah, no, listen, I also have to say, I'm glad you were in some shape, because what it was 78 floors, yeah, golly, hey, I don't want to hear you say 10, you know. But 78 floors, Michael Hingson ** 48:15 it was going down. So that's pretty good. As I tell people, I do understand, but as I tell people, the next week, for the next week I was starting, actually the next day, I was stiff as a board. The adrenaline ran out. And, oh, it's horrible. And, yeah, you know, my wife was in a wheelchair her whole life, and we were in a two story house we built so there was an elevator. And I swear, for the next week after September 11, I use that elevator a whole lot more than she did. Kijuan Amey ** 48:43 Ah, that's funny, Michael Hingson ** 48:46 but, but, you know, it was just kind of the way it was. But it is a choice, yes, and the bottom line is that we we move on you. You certainly had lots of things happen to you. You lost a lot of things. Did you ever get your sense of smell back? Or is it still gone? Kijuan Amey ** 49:01 No, no. It was damaged during the reconstructive surgery on my face where they had to input the two plates. Yeah. Okay, yeah. So that's where that came from. So now it happened, shall I say? So Michael Hingson ** 49:13 now getting back to something that we talked about at the very beginning, as you point out, you lost your site, but you didn't lose your vision. So tell me more about that, what that means to you, and why you say that. Because, as I said, that's something that that I've thought and talked about a lot. And of course, when thunder dog was written, we put that into thunder dog. And by the way, if you don't know it, Thunder dog and and all three of my books actually are on on Bard, so you can download them, or you can help a poor, starving author and go buy them, but, but, you know, Kijuan Amey ** 49:50 come on, I think you will off. Mr. Steve Harvey, No, I'm joking. But anywho. So, as I mentioned before. Four, you know, when I was talking about my business, I don't necessarily feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm helping and and what I mean, the reason I even preface that is because when I say I may have lost my sight, but I didn't lose my vision. Sight, to me, is the physical, the vision is the mental. And so my mental was helping others, and it's always been that way, whether it was me playing sports, I had to help in some way, because I played team sports. Now, did I play any individual? No, I played all team sports. I did bowling, I did football, the basketball and ran track. All of those are team sports. And so you can roll in singles, but at the same sense, some point you're going to be doing either doubles or three or four person teams. So most of the time I was doing teams and doubles. But anyway, I was always doing some kind of helping. I grew up with siblings. I had to help somebody. I, you know, I grew up with without much, so we had to help each other. Hey, you don't know how to cook. Let me show you. You don't know how to fix this in the microwave. Let me show you, you know. And so, um, when I got to the military, I had to help, you know, when I was became an instructor, I was helping teach the people who are coming in new and all these different times I'm helping people. And now I get to a point where, not only I have to help myself get back to where I can have some kind of normalcy of life, but what really is a normal life? You know what I mean? Yeah, I had to help others understand that if I can make it through this, you can make it through what you're dealing with as well, and be there to help you. Michael Hingson ** 51:57 How about going the other way? Though you needed help too, yeah, yeah. And were you advanced enough in your thinking at the time that you were perfectly willing to accept help as well? Kijuan Amey ** 52:12 Uh, no, I had my moments. Um, there. There's a chapter in my book I called, uh, it's called the depression set in, and that was when I was at one of my lower points, because not too long after depression, where the suicidal thoughts, the suicidal thoughts, luckily, didn't take me out and I never attempted, because I was able to think my way. I'm a very critical thinker, Problem Solver kind of guy, so I was able to think my way out of even having those thoughts again. And I said, Hey, man, this is not you. I don't know what it is, but it's not you. And so instead of me continuing to have those thoughts, I started asking people questions, what can I do? Because this is not like, it's not working, whatever life is not working for me, right? You know, and I'm a faith believer. So my grandmother, I was living with her at the time, and the first she's a faith believer as well. And the first thing she says is, you know, just pray. You know, just pray about it. I said, Grandma, we pray every day. Hear me clearly. I didn't say, some days we pray every day this obviously, and I'm not saying it's not working, but it needs something more. And so she was, well, I don't know what to tell you. And then eventually she goes in her room and thinks about it for a minute, and she said, Why don't you call your uncle? And I said, You know what? It's not a bad idea. And he, by the way, he's a senior pastor at his church, and so I said, that's not a bad idea. I didn't think to call my pastor because I didn't want to bother him. It's kind of one of those things you just felt like, I don't want him to think about that. I've had it on his mind, you know, stuff like that. And so I called my uncle, and I was telling telling him how I was feeling, and all I heard him say was, hold on key, I'm on the way. It was like eight o'clock at night, so for him to be like, Hey, I'm HOLD ON key, I'm on the way. That's what they call me Ki, my family. Some of them call me kiwi, but some call me Ki. But anyway, just as long as they don't call me late for dinner. And so I was like, Wait, he he's coming over here, you know? So I said, Okay. And I hung up the phone, and my grandma's like, Well, what did he say? I said, he said he's on the way. She's like, he went. I said, Exactly. That's what I said. And so she said, Oh Lord, well, let me put on some clothes. I said, let you put on some clothes. I need to put on some clothes. And. Yeah, and so anyway, we both get dressed somewhat. I wasn't, like, fully dressed. I just put on, like, some, you know, some basketball shorts, a shirt, yeah, you know, stuff like that. Because I'm thinking, we're just going to hang out at the house. He's going to talk to me. He's like, Hey, man, you want to throw on some pants and, you know, go out and put on some shoes. I said, Where we going? It's like, for a ride. I said, Okay, uh, yeah, uh, grandma, and she came back in there, she's like, Yeah, he's like, we're gonna go for a ride. Um, can you get my sweatpants from over this here? Because I knew where everything was in the room, and you know how it is, we know where everything is, where we put stuff. We know exactly where it is, right? And so I knew everything was get my sweat pants from this drawer and get my shirt from that drawer. And I said, No, it's the second drawer, not the third and stuff. So we I get dressed, we go for a ride, and he's talking. No, no, I'm talking first. He let me talk. He said, So key, tell me what's up. I said, I ran through the gambit of what I was going down with me, how I had the depressed thoughts, how I had some suicidal thoughts, but I had to bring myself back out of this, and I just could not figure out why this was coming over me like that. And he was like, Uh huh. And then, you know, I just stopped talking for a while. He said, You know what key I said, What's that? He said, I'm surprised it took you this long. I was like, What do you mean? He was like, Dude, I thought this would have happened to you a long time ago? He said, I've been waiting on this. And I said, that's crazy. Like I'm sitting there thinking, man, what the heck? You know? I'm thinking. People ain't thinking about me. Nobody's like, really, can't they see me smiling, laughing, giggling and all that stuff. So they're probably not even thinking about it, you know. But he was actually prepared. He's prepared for what I call the breakdown. And he said, Keith, I think the best thing you can do, and this is when we pulled over somewhere and start talking. He said, The best thing I think you can do with this situation is you're going to have to embrace and confront the issue. And I said, Can you explain that a little bit more? He's like, Yeah, yeah. He said, what it is, I think, is your the hope that we all have is for you to regain your eyesight. But the real realization is you don't have it right now. So I need you to live like you don't have it and hope that one day you'll get it. So don't keep dwelling on the hope part. Just live like you don't have it, and that way you'll keep moving forward versus thinking you're going to get it, because these thoughts are taking you down. Every day you wake up, every time you wake up from a nap, you think you're gonna open your eyes and see something that's gonna keep bringing you further and further down. I need you to embrace this thing and don't live in the denial phase of it happening. And that was when I started to come out like that was when I really started to gain some strength and a stronger mindset. Very wise words, oh, yeah, no, these are all he is, trust me, I'm just regurgitating them. I'm sorry. Oh, I said, yeah, these were definitely his words. I'm just regurgitating, Michael Hingson ** 58:46 yeah, well, but, but certainly some, some good wisdom there. But you also then chose to follow, which is great, and probably whether he's surprised it took so long. It sounds like it all happened at the right time, because you are also willing to listen, which is great. So you you moved forward. When did you form your company? Kijuan Amey ** 59:12 I mean, on paper, it was like two years ago, okay, um, but like I said, officially, I started speaking in 2019 right? I understand that, yeah. But so I always count 2019 because I really believe as soon as you start doing something, you're doing it, right, yeah, you understand and and the legality side of it, hey, you can have that. I don't care. But yeah. So that's how I view it. Michael Hingson ** 59:44 So how did 10 years, if you will, even though some of it was less active, but how did 10 years in the military help prepare you for public speaking and what you're doing today? Kijuan Amey ** 59:56 Oh, wow. I mean, well, first off, like I told you, the resilience coaching. Mm. Um, that's part of it, and that's all they used to talk about in the military, being resilient. We used to have, like, a training, I think it was every year, is it every year or twice a year, or something like that, but we used to have training on that stuff. Um, speaking, I I never really wanted to be a public speaker. I'll be honest. Um, I do have to stay that, say, say that, because I was not one who wanted to be in the spotlight. But if the spotlight found me, I'm okay with it. You know that that's that's what I was okay with. If it found me, that's fine, but I'm not trying to take over it. Don't put it on me, shine that light somewhere else and so, but what happened with that? Okay, yes, I took, I was in college for a while, and I did take a public speaking class with the instructor. Upgrade. You have to do public speaking, because you have to give presentations going through the pre training and the actual training, the certification training. So those were different. And also the the group sizes were different. Size you might be talking to one person you might be talking to an auditorium full. Mm, hmm. So there, there was that. And, you know? So these different things, I speak for different things at my church, you know? And so it started to kind of snowball again. Different things were building me up to that point, and as I got and you'll, you'll appreciate this here, as I got into my vision, or the eyesight loss, I understood that I have a superpower. Now, yeah, and I know people like a superpower. What are you talking about, man? So I can't see you so the the looks on your faces don't affect me, the fact that I'm looking at, or supposedly looking at, engaging an audience of one to 10 to 100 to even 1500 because I have spoken to over 1500 people before, it does not affect me, yeah? And that is like us to me, my superpower now. So that's how I've changed all of this to be fitting for me. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 1:02:32 yeah. Well, so let me ask you this. We've been doing this for a while, but I want to ask you one more question. Other people are certainly going through challenges. They're experiencing difficulties in their lives, and maybe some life altering kinds of situations. What kind of advice would you give them? Kijuan Amey ** 1:02:54 Oh, the first one I can easily give you don't give up, and it's easily easy to give, but it's not easy to do. So I do have to say that you but if you keep that in the back of your mind, don't give up and you keep saying that to yourself, make it an affirmation. Put it on your vision board, put it in as a reminder in your phone, whatever you need to keep you grounded in that concept of, don't give up. And so that's one thing I would say. And for myself, I say this a lot, my situation, whether it's me being blind, me being having a traumatic brain injury, me having emotional, you know, flare ups, spinal cord issues or lack of mobility, what, whatever it is my situation that doesn't define who I am. I define who I am. Michael Hingson ** 1:03:56 So that's what I'll leave people with. And that is so true for everyone. Your your conditions don't define you. You've defined you, and you can choose how you want to be defined. Which gets back to, don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. Yep. Well, key one, I want to thank you for being here. I hope that people take this to heart, and I hope it will generate more business for you, if people want to reach out to you, maybe for coaching or for speaking and so on. How do they do that? Yeah, Kijuan Amey ** 1:04:33 and I appreciate you saying that. So again, you can go to my website. That's Amey, motivation.com A, M, E, y, motivation.com you can also find my book on there. So don't focus on why me from motorcycle accident to miracle. You can also go on Amazon, Kindle Apple books as well as audible to find my book as well. So I do have audio versions out there for those who like to listen to their book. Books and for speaking engagements, feel free to click that book me link you can speak book me for a convention or conference or an event, a gala, high school, college, whatever you want me to come speak for. Come get me because I am all over it. Michael Hingson ** 1:05:18 How many speaking events do you do a year. Kijuan Amey ** 1:05:21 I don't count. Okay, if I try to count, Michael Hingson ** 1:05:24 you know what I mean? I know the feeling, yeah, Kijuan Amey ** 1:05:27 I just do Hey, hey. That's, I think that's what Nike said. Just do it, man. Michael Hingson ** 1:05:31 Yeah, exactly right. Well, Kijuan, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you who are out there listening or watching. Really, we're grateful that you're here. I hope that what we've talked about today not only inspires you, but it gives you some good life thoughts that you can go use. Because certainly, everything that we got to discuss today is relevant, not just if you are having a challenge in your life, but it's something that is important for all of us. Life lessons like these don't grow on trees, and I hope that you'll enjoy them and use them. Reach out to key one. I'd love to hear from you. Love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at access, A, B, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O, n.com/podcast, love you to please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening. We love your reviews and your thoughts, so please do that, and as I also love to do, and that is to ask you, if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on this podcast. And Kijuan you as well, love to get your thoughts. Feel free to reach out, introduce us to anyone who you think ought to be a guest. We're always looking for more people who want to come on and and share their stories and help us all become more unstoppable than we think we are. But again, really appreciate your time today, everyone and Kiju, especially you. Thanks for being here. This has been wonderful. Kijuan Amey ** 1:07:15 Thank you again. I really appreciate you having me on to tell my story. Michael Hingson ** 1:07:22 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

tv love ceo university amazon children man media books san francisco new york times arizona italy reach focus north carolina teacher hospitals ptsd fbi defense kentucky va ncaa medical blind kansas cbs navy warriors mississippi ambassadors thunder boy southern marine stitcher air force michael jordan san antonio grandma ebooks sight upgrade unstoppable swimming durham ratings acc unc bard mm rutgers university ymca world trade center steve harvey coast guard us air force dod wildcats ic united states air force ground zero sustained raptor american red cross problem solvers north carolina state university tar heels hold on s o oh lord air canada medically national federation jeez north carolina state humvees michael h staff sergeant durham north carolina resilience coach energizer bunny amey exxon mobile chief vision officer federal express scripps college life flight technical state university michael hingson asvab accessibe i yeah american humane association thunder dog blinded veterans association hero dog awards

Episode 357 – Unstoppable Manager and Leader with Scott Hanton

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 29, 2025 66:45

“Manager and leader”? What's the difference. During my conversation this time with Scott Hanton, our guest, we will discuss this very point along with many other fascinating and interesting subjects. As Scott tells us at the beginning of this episode he grew up asking “why” about most anything you can think of. He always was a “why” asker. As he tells it, unlike many children who grow out of the phase of asking “why” he did not. He still asks “why” to this very day. At the age of 13 Scott decided that he wanted to be a chemist. He tells us how this decision came about and why he has always stayed with it. Scott received his bachelor's degree in Chemistry from Michigan State and his PHD from the University of Wisconsin. Again, why he changed schools for his PHD work is an interesting story. As you will see, Scott tells stories in a unique and quite articulate way. After his university days were over Scott went to work, yes as a chemist. He tells us about this and how after 20 years with one company how and why he moved to another company and somewhat out of constant lab work into some of the management, business and leadership side of a second company. He stayed there for ten years and was laid off during the pandemic. Scott then found employment as the editorial director of Lab Management Magazine where he got to bring his love of teaching to the forefront of his work. My hour with Scott gives us all many insights into management, leadership and how to combine the two to create a strong teaming environment. I believe you will find Scott's thoughts extremely poignant and helpful in everything that you do. About the Guest: Scott Hanton is the Editorial Director of Lab Manager. He spent 30 years as a research chemist, lab manager, and business leader at Air Products and Intertek. Scott thrives on the challenges of problem-solving. He enjoys research, investigation, and collaboration. Scott is a people-centric, servant leader. He is motivated by developing environments where people can grow and succeed, and crafting roles for people that take advantage of their strengths. Scott earned a BS in chemistry from Michigan State University and a PhD in physical chemistry from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He is an active member of the American Chemical Society (ACS), the American Society of Mass Spectrometry (ASMS), and the Association of Lab Managers (ALMA). As a scientist Scott values curiosity, innovation, progress, and delivery of results. Scott has always been motivated by questions beginning with why. Studying physical chemistry in graduate school offered the opportunity to hone answers to these questions. As a professional scientist, Scott worked in analytical chemistry specializing in MALDI mass spectrometry and polymer characterization. At Scott married his high school sweetheart, and they have one son. Scott is motivated by excellence, happiness, and kindness. He most enjoys helping people and solving problems. Away from work, Scott enjoys working outside in the yard, playing strategy games, and participating in different discussion groups. Scott values having a growth mindset and is a life-long learner. He strives to learn something new everyday and from everyone. One of the great parts of being a trained research scientist is that failure really isn't part of his vocabulary. He experiments and either experiences success or learns something new. He values both individual and organizational learning. Scott's current role at Lab Manager encompasses three major responsibilities: · Writing articles and giving presentations to share his experience with lab managers. · Driving the creation and growth of the Lab Manager Academy (https://labmanageracademy.com/) that currently contains three certificate programs: lab management, lab safety management, and lab quality management. · Helping people through his knowledge of science, scientists, management, and leadership. He is very happy sharing the accumulated wisdom of his experiences as a researcher, lab supervisor, and lab manager. Each article posted on Lab Manager addresses a decision that a lab manager needs to make. Lab management is full of decision-making, so helping people make better, faster, more complete decisions is very satisfying. Ways to connect with Scott: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-hanton/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity and the unexpected meet, and mostly we get to deal with the unexpected, as opposed to inclusion or diversity. But that's okay, because unexpected is what makes life fun, and our guest today, Scott Hanton, will definitely be able to talk about that. Scott has been a research chemist. He comes from the chemistry world, so he and I in the past have compared notes, because, of course, I come from the physics world, and I love to tell people that the most important thing I learned about physics was that, unlike Doc Brown, although I do know how to build a bomb, unlike Doc Brown from Back to the Future, I'm not dumb enough to try to go steal fissionable material from a terrorist group to build the bomb. So, you know, I suppose that's a value, value lesson somewhere. But anyway, I am really glad that you're all here with us today, and we have lots to talk about. Scott, as I said, was in chemistry and research chemist, and now is the editorial supervisor and other things for a magazine called lab manager, and we will talk about that as well. So Scott, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad Scott Hanton ** 02:38 you're here. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation with you today. Michael Hingson ** 02:43 Well, I think it'll be a lot of fun, and looking forward to it. Now, you're in Michigan, right? Scott Hanton ** 02:48 That's right. I live in South Lyon, Michigan, Michael Hingson ** 02:51 ah, what's the weather back there today? Scott Hanton ** 02:55 It's probably about 55 degrees and cloudy Michael Hingson ** 02:58 here today. Well, it's still fairly sunny here, and we're actually, according to my iPhone, at 71 so it was up around 80 earlier in the week, but weather changes are still going to bring some cold for a while Scott Hanton ** 03:15 in here in Michigan, I visited a customer earlier this week, and I drove by about 1000 orange barrels on the highway, which means it's spring, because there's only two seasons in Michigan, winter and construction. Michael Hingson ** 03:29 There you go. Yeah, I know. I went to the University of California, Irvine, UCI. And if you ask somebody who doesn't know that UCI stands for University of California at Irvine. If you ask them what UCI stands for, they'll tell you, under construction indefinitely. Sounds right? Yeah. Well, it's been doing it ever since I was there a long time ago, and they they continue to grow. Now we're up to like 32,000 fresh, or excuse me, undergraduates at the university. And when I was there, there were 2700 students. So it's grown a little. That's Scott Hanton ** 04:05 a lot of change. I'm used to big universities. I'm a graduate of both Michigan State and the University of Wisconsin. So these are big places. Michael Hingson ** 04:13 Wow, yeah. So you're used to it. I really enjoyed it when it was a small campus. I'm glad I went there, and that was one of the reasons that caused me to go there, was because I knew I could probably get a little bit more visibility with instructors, and that would be helpful for me to get information when they didn't describe things well in class. And it generally worked out pretty well. So I can't complain a lot. Perfect. Glad it worked well for you, it did. Well, why don't you start, if you would, by telling us kind of about the early Scott growing up and all that sort of stuff. Scott Hanton ** 04:49 I grew up in Michigan, in a town called Saginaw. I was blessed with a family that loved me and that, you know, I was raised in a very. Supportive environment. But young Scott asked, Why about everything you know, the way kids do? Yeah, right. And my mom would tell you that when I was a kid, why was my most favorite word? And most kids outgrow that. I never did, yeah, so Me neither. I still ask why all the time. It's still my most favorite word, and it caused me to want to go explore the sciences, because what I found, as I learned about science, was that I could get answers to why questions better in science than in other places. Michael Hingson ** 05:34 Yeah, makes sense. So what kinds of questions did you ask about why? Well, I asked Scott Hanton ** 05:43 all kinds of questions about why, like, why are we having that for dinner? Or, why is my bedtime so early? Those questions didn't have good answers, at least from my perspective, right? But I also asked questions like, why is grass green, and why is the sky blue? And studying physical chemistry at Michigan State answered those questions. And so Michael Hingson ** 06:03 how early did you learn about Rayleigh scattering? But that's you know? Scott Hanton ** 06:07 Well, I learned the basic concepts from a really important teacher in my life, Mr. Leeson was my seventh grade science teacher, and what I learned from him is that I could ask questions that weren't pertinent to what he was lecturing about, and that taught me a lot about the fact that science was a lot bigger than what we got in the curriculum or in the classroom. And so Mr. Leeson was a really important person in my development, and showed me that there was that science was a lot bigger than I thought it was as a student, but I didn't really learn about rally scattering until I got to college. Michael Hingson ** 06:43 But at the same time, it sounds like he was willing to allow you to grow and and learn, which so many people aren't willing to do. They're too impatient. Scott Hanton ** 06:58 He was a first year teacher the year I had him so he hadn't become cynical yet. So it was great to just be able to stay after class and ask him a question, or put my hand up in class and ask him a question. He also did a whole series of demonstrations that were fabulous and made the science come to life in a way that reading about it doesn't stir the imagination. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 07:23 I had teachers that did that too. I remember very well my freshman general science teacher in high school, Mr. Dills, and one day, and he loved to do kind of unique things, just to push the boundaries of students a little bit. He came in one day and he said, I got a pop quiz for everybody, which doesn't help me, because the pop quiz was in print, but he handed it out. And then he took me to the back of the room, and he said, You're not going to really be able to do this quiz. Let me tell you why. And he said, Oh, and one thing he said is, just be sure you follow all the instructions and you'll be fine on the test to everybody. He brought me back to the back of the room. He says, Well, here's the deal. He says, if people really read the instructions, what they'll do is they'll read the instruction that says, Read all the questions before you start answering, and if you get to the last question, it says answer only the first question, which is what is your name and and sure enough, of course, people didn't read the instructions. And he said, so I wouldn't be able to really deal with you with that one, with that whole thing, just because it wouldn't work well. And I said, I understand, but he loved to make students think, and I learned so much about the whole concept of realizing the need to observe and be observant in all that you do. And it was lessons like that from him that really helped a lot with that. For me, Scott Hanton ** 08:48 I had a high school chemistry teacher named Mrs. Schultz, and the first experiment that we did in her class, in the first week of classes, was she wanted us to document all of the observations that we could make about a burning candle. And I was a hot shot student. Thought I, you know, owned the world, and I was going to ace this test. And, you know, I had maybe a dozen observations about a burning candle, and thought I had done a great job describing it, until she started sharing her list, and she probably had 80 observations about a burning candle, and it taught me the power of observation and the need to talk about the details of those observations and to be specific about what the observations were. And that experiment seems simple, light a candle and tell me what you see. Yeah, but that lesson has carried on with me now for more than approaching 50 years. Michael Hingson ** 09:47 Let's see, as I recall, if you light a candle, what the center of the flame is actually pretty cool compared to the outside. It's more hollow. Now I wouldn't be able to easily tell that, because. Is my my process for observing doesn't really use eyesight to do that, so I I'm sure there are other technologies today that I could use to get more of that information. But Scott Hanton ** 10:12 I'm also sure that that experiment could be re crafted so that it wasn't so visual, yeah, right, that there could be tactile experiments to tell me about observations or or audible experiments about observation, where you would excel in ways that I would suffer because I'm so visually dominant. The Michael Hingson ** 10:33 issue, though, is that today, there's a lot more technology to do that than there was when I was in school and you were in school, but yeah, I think there is a lot available. There's a company called Independence Science, which is actually owned and run by Dr Cary sapollo. And Carrie is blind, and he is a blind chemist, and he wanted to help develop products for blind people to be able to deal with laboratory work. So he actually worked with a company that was, well, it's now Vernier education systems. They make a product called LabQuest with something like 80 different kinds of probes that you can attach to it, and the LabQuest will will provide visual interpretations of whatever the probes are showing carry, and independent science took that product and made it talk, so that There is now a Talking LabQuest. And the reality is that all those probes became usable because the LabQuest became accessible to be able to do that, and they put a lot of other things into it too. So it's more than just as a talking device, a lab device. It's got a periodic table in it. It's got a lot of other kinds of things that they just put in it as well. But it's really pretty cool because it now makes science a whole lot more accessible. I'm going to have to think about the different kinds of probes and how one could use that to look at a candle. I think that'd be kind of fun. Scott Hanton ** 12:15 And it's just awesome to hear that there's innovation and space to make science more available to everybody. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 12:23 the real problem that we face is the one that we mostly always have faced, which is societal attitudes, as opposed to really being or not being able to do the experiments, is people think we can't, and that's the barrier that we always, usually have to overcome. Scott Hanton ** 12:39 What I find in my time as a coach, mentor, supervisor, is that if somebody believes they can't do it, they can't do it. Yeah. And so it's often about overcoming their own mental limitations, the limitations that they've placed on themselves, Michael Hingson ** 12:56 and that's right, or unfortunately, the limitations that other people place on us, and we, all too often and weigh too much, buy into those limitations. So it's it is something that we, especially in the sciences, should recognize that we shouldn't be doing so much of. I know that when I was at UC Irvine as a graduate student, I learned once that there was a letter in my file that a professor wrote. Fortunately, I never had him as a professor, but it and I was in my master's program at the time in physics, and this guy put a letter in my file saying that no blind person could ever absorb the material to get an advanced degree in physics at the University. Just put that in there, which is so unfortunate, because the real thing that is demonstrated there is a prejudice that no scientist should ever have. Scott Hanton ** 13:51 I'm hopeful that as you graduated, there was a retraction letter in your file as well, Michael Hingson ** 13:57 not that I ever heard, but yeah. Well, I'd already gotten my bachelor's degree, but yeah. But you know, things happen, but it is a it is a societal thing, and society all too often creates limitations, and sometimes we don't find them right away, but it is one of the big issues that, in general, we have to deal with. And on all too often, society does some pretty strange things because it doesn't understand what science is all about. I know when we were dealing with covid, when it all started, leaving the conspiracy theorists out of it. One of the things that I learned was that we have all these discussions about AI, if you will. But AI was one of the primary mechanisms that helped to develop the mRNA vaccines that are now still the primary things that we use to get vaccinated against covid, because they the artificial intelligence. I'm not sure how artificial. It is, but was able to craft what became the vaccine in a few days. And scientists acknowledged, if they had to do it totally on their own, it would take years to have done what AI did in a few days. Scott Hanton ** 15:13 The AI technology is amazing and powerful, but it's not new. No, I met a person who shared her story about AI investigations and talked about what she was doing in this field 30 years ago. Yeah, in her master's work. And you know, I knew it wasn't brand new, but I didn't really realize how deep its roots went until I talked to her. Michael Hingson ** 15:37 I worked as my first jobs out of college with Ray Kurzweil, who, of course, nowadays, is well known for the singularity and so on. But back then, he developed the first reading machine that blind people could use to read printed material. And one of the things that he put into that machine was the ability, as it scanned more material, to learn and better recognize the material. And so he was doing machine learning back in the 1970s Scott Hanton ** 16:07 right? And all of this is, you know, as Newton said on the shoulders of giants, right, right? He said it a bit cynically, but it's still true that we all in science, we are learning from each other. We're learning from the broader community, and we're integrating that knowledge as we tackle the challenges that we are exploring. Michael Hingson ** 16:27 So what got you to go into chemistry when you went into college? Scott Hanton ** 16:33 That's a good question. So when I was 13 years old, I went on a youth a church group youth trip to another city, and so they split us up, and there were three of us from our group that stayed overnight in a host family. And at dinner that night, the father worked in a pharmaceutical company, and he talked about the work he was doing, and what he was doing was really synthetic chemistry around small molecule drug discovery. And for me, it was absolutely fascinating. I was thrilled at that information. I didn't know any scientists growing up, I had no adult input other than teachers about science, and I can remember going back home and my parents asking me how the trip went. And it's like, it's fantastic. I'm going to be a chemist. And they both looked at me like, what is that? How do you make money from it? How do you get that? My dad was a banker. My mom was a school teacher. They had no scientific background, but that that one conversation, such serendipity, right? One conversation when I was 13 years old, and I came home and said, I'm going to be a chemist, and I've never really deviated from that path. Did you have other siblings? Younger brother and another younger sister? Michael Hingson ** 17:54 Okay? Did they go into science by any remote chance? Scott Hanton ** 17:58 Not at all. So they were both seventh grade teachers for more than 30 years. So my brother taught math and English, and my sister teaches social studies. Michael Hingson ** 18:10 Well, there you go. But that is also important. I actually wanted to teach physics, but jobs and other things and circumstances took me in different directions, but I think the reality is that I ended up going into sales. And what I realized, and it was partly because of a Dale Carnegie sales course I took, but I realized that good sales people are really teachers, because they're really teaching people about products or about things, and they're also sharp enough to recognize what their products might or might not do to help a customer. But that, again, not everyone does that, but so I figure I still was teaching, and today, being a public speaker, traveling the world, talking, of course, about teamwork and other things, it's still all about teaching. Scott Hanton ** 18:57 I think I've always been a teacher, and if you talk to my coworkers along the way, I enjoy helping people. I enjoy sharing my knowledge. There's always been a teacher inside but only in this job as the editorial director at lab manager have I really been able to do it directly. So we've developed what we call the lab manager Academy, and I create e learning courses to help lab managers be more successful, and it's been a passion project for me, and it's been a load of fun. Michael Hingson ** 19:30 And it doesn't get better than that. It's always great when it's a load of fun, yes, Scott Hanton ** 19:35 well, so you left college and you got a bachelor's and a master's degree, right? No masters for me, that step you went right to the old PhD, yeah. So I went straight. I went graduated from Michigan State. So Michigan State was on terms back in those days. So graduated in June, got married in July, moved to Wisconsin in August. To graduate school at the end of August at the University of Wisconsin. Okay? And my second year as a graduate student, my professor asked me, Do you want to stop and complete a master's? And I said, Wait, tell me about this word stop. And he said, Well, you'd have to finish the Master's requirements and write a thesis, and that's going to take some time. And I said, Do I have to and he said, No, and I don't recommend it. Just keep going forward and finish your PhD. So that's Michael Hingson ** 20:30 and what does your wife do? Scott Hanton ** 20:33 So my wife also is in the graduate program at the University of Wisconsin, and she decided that a master's degree was the right answer for her, because she didn't want to be a PhD scientist in XYZ narrow band of science. She wanted to be a master of chemistry. Okay, and so we took different paths through graduate school, but each of us took the path that worked best for us, and each pass has great value, so we're both happy with the choices that we made, Michael Hingson ** 21:06 and complement each other and also give you, still lots of great things to talk about over dinner. Scott Hanton ** 21:12 Absolutely. And she took that master's degree, went into the pharmaceutical industry and largely behaved as a librarian in her first part of her career, she wasn't called a librarian, but what she really did was a lot of information integrating, and then moved into the Library Group, and was a corporate librarian for a long time, and then a community librarian. So that path worked brilliantly for her. She also has a Masters of Library Science. So I have one PhD. She has two Master's degree. I have one bachelor's degree. She has two bachelor's degree. Michael Hingson ** 21:50 Oh, so you can have interesting discussions about who really progressed further, 21:54 absolutely. Michael Hingson ** 21:57 Well, that's, that's, that's cute, though. Well, I I got my bachelor's and master's. My wife, who I didn't meet until years later, wanted to be a librarian, but she ended up getting a a Master's at USC in so in sociology and and ended up getting a teaching credential and going into teaching, and taught for 10 years, and then she decided she wanted to do something different, and became a travel agent, which she had a lot of fun with. That is different, it is, but she enjoyed it, and along the way, then we got married. It was a great marriage. She was in a wheelchair her whole life. So she read, I pushed, worked out well, complimentary skills, absolutely, which is the way, way it ought to be, you know, and we had a lot of fun with it. Unfortunately, she passed now two and a half years ago, but as I tell people, we were married 40 years, and I'm sure she's monitoring me from somewhere, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it, so I try to just behave. Sounds like good advice. Yeah, probably certainly the safe way to go. But we, we, we had lots of neat discussions, and our our activities and our expertise did, in a lot of ways, complement each other, so it was a lot of fun. And as I said, she went to USC. I enjoyed listening to USC football because I thought that that particular college team had the best announcers in the business, least when when I was studying in Southern California, and then when we got married, we learned the the day we got married, the wedding was supposed to start at four, and it didn't start till later because people weren't showing up for the wedding. And we learned that everybody was sitting out in their cars waiting for the end of the USC Notre Dame game. And we knew that God was on our side when we learned that SC beat the snot out of Notre Dame. So there you go. Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh, the rivalries we face. So what did you do after college? Scott Hanton ** 24:09 So did my PhD at the University of Wisconsin. And one of the nice things, a fringe benefit of going to a big, important program to do your PhD, is that recruiters come to you. And so I was able to do 40 different, four, zero, 40 different interviews on campus without leaving Madison. And one of those interviews was with a company called Air Products. And that worked out, and they hired me. And so we moved to Allentown, Pennsylvania to go to work. I went to work at Air Products and and Helen found a role in the pharmaceutical industry at Merck. And so we did that for a long time. I was initially a research expert, a PhD expert doing lasers and materials and analytical stuff. And over the years. I progressed up the ladder from researcher to supervisor to what did we call it, group head to Section Manager, to operations manager, and ultimately to General Manager. Michael Hingson ** 25:13 Well, at least being in Allentown, you were close to a Cracker Barrel restaurant. Yes, that is true. That was the closest to one to where we lived in New Jersey, so we visited it several times. That's how I know Scott Hanton ** 25:26 about it. Maybe we were there at the same time. Michael, maybe this isn't our first. It's Michael Hingson ** 25:31 very possible. But we enjoyed Cracker Barrel and enjoyed touring around Pennsylvania. So I should have asked, What prompted you to go to the University of Wisconsin to do your your graduate work, as opposed to staying in Michigan. So Scott Hanton ** 25:47 my advisor at Michigan State, our advisor at Michigan State, told us, here's the top five schools, graduate programs in chemistry, apply to them all. Go to the one you get into. And so I got into three. Helen got into two. The one that was the same was Wisconsin. So that's where we went, yeah? Michael Hingson ** 26:09 Well, then no better logic and argument than that. Scott Hanton ** 26:14 It was a great Madison. Wisconsin is a beautiful city. It one of the things I really liked about the chemistry program there then, and it's still true now, is how well the faculty get along together so many collaborative projects and just friendliness throughout the hallways. And yes, they are all competing at some level for grant support, but they get along so well, and that makes it for a very strong community, Michael Hingson ** 26:41 and it probably also means that oftentimes someone who's applying for something can enlist support from other people who are willing to help. Scott Hanton ** 26:50 And as a graduate student, it meant that I had more than one professor that I could go to my advisor. There was a whole group of advisors who ran joint group meetings and would give us advice about our work or our writing or our approach, or just because we needed a pep talk, because completing a PhD is hard. Yeah, right, so that community was really important to me, and it's something I took away that when I started my industrial career, I had seen the value of community, and I wanted to build stronger communities wherever I went, yeah. Michael Hingson ** 27:26 So what does a company, does air products do Scott Hanton ** 27:31 that's sort of in the name, right? They're an industrial gas company. Got some of their big, biggest products are taking air and separating it into its components of nitrogen, oxygen, oxygen, argon, whatever, right? But at that time, they also had a chemicals business and a semiconductor business, or electronics business. So there was a lot of chemistry going on, although a lot of my work colleagues were chemical engineers who were working on the gasses side of the business, we had significant number of chemistry, sorts material science, sorts of people who are working on the chemicals side. Now, over time, Air Products divested those businesses, and now it's much more of a true industrial gas company. But I had the opportunity to work in an integrated science company that did all sorts of things. Michael Hingson ** 28:23 Yeah, and as as we know, certainly a little helium never hurt anyone. Scott Hanton ** 28:30 No little helium, you know, raises people's spirits, it Michael Hingson ** 28:34 does and their voices, it does. I I've visited helium tanks many times at UC Irvine when they had liquid helium, which was certainly a challenge because of how cold it had to be. But occasionally we would open a valve and little cold but useful helium gas would escape Scott Hanton ** 28:56 very cold. Please be safe. Cryogens are are dangerous materials, and we gotta make sure we handle them with due respect. Michael Hingson ** 29:05 Yeah, well, we, we all did and and didn't take too many chances. So it worked out pretty well. So you stayed in Allentown and you stayed with Air Products for how long Scott Hanton ** 29:19 I was in Air Products for 20 years. So the analytical group that I was part of, we were about 92 or 93 people when I joined the company, when I just left after earning my PhD. After 20 years, that group was down to about 35 just progressive series of decisions that made the department smaller, and as the Department got smaller and smaller, we were worried about our abilities to sustain our work. And so a dear friend and a key colleague, Paula McDaniel, and I, worked to try to see what other kind of opportunities there were. Yeah. And so we reached out to a contract research organization called Intertech to see if they would be interested in maybe acquiring our analytical department. And when we called them, and by the way, we called them before we talked to our boss about it, she forgave us later, but when we called the guy on the end of the phone said, Wait a minute, let me get your file. And it's like, what you have a file on Air Products, analytical, really? Why? Well, it turned out that they had a file, and that they had an active Merger and Acquisition Group, and they wanted an integrated analytical department on the east coast of the US. And so we engaged in negotiation, and ultimately this analytical department was sold by Air Products to Intertech. So on Friday, we're a little cog in a giant engine of an global, international company, and our funding comes from Vice Presidents. And on Monday, we're a standalone business of 35 people, we need to write quotes in order to make money. So it was an enormous challenge to transition from a service organization to a business. But oh my goodness, did we learn a lot, Michael Hingson ** 31:13 certainly a major paradigm shift, Scott Hanton ** 31:18 and I was lucky that I lost the coin flip, and Paula won, and she said, I want to be business development director. And I said, thank God. So she went off to be the key salesperson, and Paula was utterly brilliant as a technical salesperson, and I became the operations manager, which allowed me to keep my hands dirty with the science and to work with the scientists and to build a system and a community that allowed us to be successful in a CRO world. Michael Hingson ** 31:49 So at that time, when you became part, part of them, the new company, were you or the standalone business? Were you working in lab? Still yourself? Scott Hanton ** 32:01 Yes. So I had the title Operations Manager and all of the scientific staff reported into me, but I was still the technical expert in some mass spectrometry techniques, particularly MALDI and also tough Sims, and so I still had hands on lab responsibility that I needed to deliver. And over time, I was able to train some people to take some of those responsibilities off. But when the weight of the world was particularly heavy, the place for me to go was in the lab and do some experiments. Michael Hingson ** 32:34 Yeah, still so important to be able to keep your hand in into to know and understand. I know I had that same sort of need being the manager of an office and oftentimes working with other people who were the engineers, coming from a little bit of a technical background as well. I worked to always make sure I knew all I could about the products that I was dealing with and selling, and my sales people who worked for me constantly asked, How come, you know, all this stuff, and we don't then, my response always was, did you read the product bulletin that came out last week? Or have you kept up on the product bulletins? Because it's all right there, whether I actually physically repaired products or not, I knew how to do it. And so many times when I was involved in working with some of our engineers, I remember a few times our field support people, and we were working out of New Jersey, and then in New York at the time, in the World Trade Center, we had some customers up at Lockheed Martin, up in Syria, Rochester, I think it was. And the guys would go up, and then they'd call me on the phone, and we'd talk about it, and between us, we came up with some bright ideas. And I remember one day, all of a sudden, I get this phone call, and these guys are just bouncing off the walls, because whatever it was that was going on between them and me, we figured it out, and they put it in play and made it work, and they were all just as happy as clams at high tide, which is the way it ought to Scott Hanton ** 34:13 be. It's great to work in a team that finds success. The longer I was in technical management, the more I enjoyed the success of the team. It didn't need to be my success anymore that helping the scientists be successful in their roles was truly satisfying, Michael Hingson ** 34:33 and that helped you, by definition, be more successful in your role. Scott Hanton ** 34:36 And no question, it could be seen as a selfish byproduct, but the fact is that it still felt really good. Michael Hingson ** 34:43 Yeah, I hear you, because I know for me, I never thought about it as I've got to be successful. It's we've got problems to solve. Let's do it together. And I always told people that we're a team. And I have told every salesperson. I ever hired. I'm not here to boss you around. You've convinced me that you should be able to sell our products, and sometimes I found that they couldn't. But I said my job is to work with you to figure out how I can enhance what you do, and what skills do I bring to add value to you, because we've got to work together, and the people who understood that and who got it were always the most successful people that I ever had in my teams. Scott Hanton ** 35:30 One of the things I strive to do as a leader of any organization is to understand the key strengths of the people on the team and to try to craft their roles in such a way that they spend the majority of their time executing their strengths. Yeah. I've also discovered that when I truly investigate poor performance, there's often a correlation between poor performance and people working in their weaknesses. Yeah, and if we can shift those jobs, change those roles, make change happen so that people can work more often in their strengths, then good things happen. Michael Hingson ** 36:07 And if you can bring some of your skills into the mix and augment what they do, so much the better. Scott Hanton ** 36:16 Yeah, because I'm just another member of the team, my role is different, but I need to also apply my strengths to the problems and be wary of my weaknesses, because as the leader of the organization, my words carried undue weight. Yeah, and if, if I was speaking or acting in a space where I was weak, people would still do what I said, because I had the most authority, and that was just a lose, lose proposition Michael Hingson ** 36:43 by any standard. And and when you, when you operated to everyone's strengths, it always was a win. Yep, which is so cool. So you went to Intertech, and how long were you there? Scott Hanton ** 36:57 I was at Intertech for 10 years, and work I can if you know, for any listeners out there who work in the CRO world, it is a tough business. It is a grind working in that business, yeah? So it was a lot of long hours and testy customers and shortages of materials and equipment that was a hard a hard a hard road to plow, Michael Hingson ** 37:22 yeah, yeah, it gets to be frustrating. Sometimes it's what you got to do, but it still gets to be frustrating gets to be a challenge. The best part Scott Hanton ** 37:32 for me was I had a great team. We had senior and junior scientists. They were good people. They worked hard. They fundamentally, they cared about the outcomes. And so it was a great group of people to work with. But the contract lab business is a tough business. Yeah, so when covid came, you know, the pandemic settles in, all the restrictions are coming upon us. I was tasked as the General Manager of the business with setting up all the protocols, you know, how are we going to meet the number of people this basing the masks, you know, how could we work with and we were essential as a lab, so we had to keep doing what we were doing. And it took me about a week to figure non stop work to figure out what our protocols were going to be, and the moment I turned them into my boss, then I got laid off. So what you want to do in a time of crisis is you want to let go of the the general manager, the safety manager, the quality manager and the Chief Scientist, because those are four people that you don't need during times of stress or challenge or crisis. On the plus side for me, getting laid off was a bad hour. It hurt my pride, but after an hour, I realized that all the things that I'd been stressing about for years trying to run this business were no longer my problem. Yeah, and I found that it was a tremendous weight lifted off my shoulders to not feel responsible for every problem and challenge that that business had. Michael Hingson ** 39:14 And that's always a good blessing when you when you figure that out and don't worry about the the issues anymore. That's a good thing. It was certainly Scott Hanton ** 39:25 good for me. Yeah, so I'm not going to recommend that people go get laid off. No world to get fired. But one problem that I had is because Paula and I worked to create that business, I sort of behaved like an owner, but was treated like an employee. And my recommendation to people is, remember, you're an employee, find some personal boundaries that protect you from the stress of the business, because you're not going to be rewarded or treated like an owner. Michael Hingson ** 39:58 Yeah, because you're not because. Or not. Scott Hanton ** 40:01 So I got laid off. It was in the height of the pandemic. So, you know, I'm too busy of a human being to sort of sit in a rocking chair and watch the birds fly by. That's not my style or my speed. So I started a consulting business, and that was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed doing the consulting work, but I learned something really important about myself, and that's that while I can sell and I can be an effective salesperson, I don't like selling, and as a company of one, when I didn't sell, I didn't make any money, yeah, and so I needed to figure out something else to do, because I really hated selling, and I wasn't doing it. I was procrastinating, and that made the business be unpredictable and very choppy Michael Hingson ** 40:51 in that company of one, that guy who was working for you wasn't really doing all that you wanted. Scott Hanton ** 40:56 Exactly the Yeah, you know me as the founder, was giving me as the salesman, a poor performance review was not meeting objectives. So I had a long time volunteer relationship with lab manager magazine. I had been writing articles for them and speaking for them in webinars and in conferences for a long time, probably more than 10 years, I would say, and they asked me as a consultant to produce a a to a proposal to create the lab manager Academy. So the the founder and owner of the the company, the lab X Media Group, you really saw the value of an academy, and they needed it done. They needed it done. They couldn't figure it out themselves. So I wrote the proposal. I had a good idea of how to do it, but I was new to consulting, and I struggled with, how do I get paid for this? And I had four ideas, but I didn't like them, so I slept on it, and in the morning I had a fifth, which said, hire me full time. I sent in the proposal. An hour later, I had a phone call. A week later, I had a job, so that worked out fantastic. And I've really enjoyed my time at lab manager magazine. Great people, fun work. It's really interesting to me to be valued for what I know rather than for what I can do. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 42:23 the two relate. But still, it does need to be more about what you know, what you really bring, as opposed to what you can do, because what you can do in general probably is an offshoot of what you know. Scott Hanton ** 42:38 So this gives me the opportunity to help lots of people. So on the outside of the company, I'm writing articles, creating courses, giving talks to help lab managers. Because I was a lab manager for a long time, yeah, over 20 years, and I know what those challenges are. I know how hard that job is, and I know how many decisions lab managers need to make, and it's wonderful to be able to share my experience and help them, and I am motivated to help them. So was it hard? Oh, go ahead, on the inside, I'm literally an internal subject matter expert, and so I can coach and teach and help my colleagues with what's the science? What do lab managers really think? How do we pitch this so that it resonates with lab managers, and I think that helps make all of our products better and more successful. Michael Hingson ** 43:31 So was it hard? Well, I guess best way to put it is that, was it really hard to switch from being a scientist to being a lab manager and then going into being a subject matter expert and really out of the laboratory. So Scott Hanton ** 43:48 people ask me all the time, Scott, don't you miss being in the lab and doing experiments? And my answer is, I miss being in the lab. And I do miss being in the lab. You know, on very stressful days at Intertech, I'd go in the lab and I'd do an experiment, yeah, because it was fun, and I had more control over the how the experiment was run and what I would learn from it than I did running a business. But the flip side of that is, I do experiments all the time. What I learned as the general manager of a business was the scientific method works. Let's data hypothesis. Let's figure out how to test it. Let's gather data, and let's see if the hypothesis stands or falls. And we ran a business that way, I think, pretty successfully. And even now, in in media and publishing, we still run experiments all the time. And it's kind of funny that most of my editorial colleagues that I work with, they think my favorite word is experiment. My favorite word is still why, but we talk all the time now about doing experiments, and that was a new thing for them, but now we can do continual improvement more in a more dedicated way, and we do it a lot faster. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 45:00 yeah. So what's the hardest thing you think about being a lab manager? Scott Hanton ** 45:06 I think the hardest thing about let me answer that with two. I'm not going to be able to narrow it down to one, so I'll give you two. The first one is you transform, maybe one day to the next, from really being in control of your science and working with whether it's animals or rocks or electrons or chemicals, whatever you're working with, having a great degree of knowledge and a lot of control, and the next day, you're hurting cats. And so it's about that transition from having control over your destiny to influencing people to get the work done, and working with people instead of working with experiments, that's really hard. The second is, as a lab manager, there's endless decisions, and so combating decision fatigue is a big deal, and everybody in the lab depends upon you for the decisions you make. And it's not that every decision has to be perfect, you know, that's just a different failure mode if you try to make perfect decisions, but every decision needs to be made promptly. And as a scientist, I could always make more data in order to make a better decision, but as a lab manager, I would often only have maybe 40 or 50% of the data I wanted, and a decision had to be made. And getting comfortable making decisions in the face of uncertainty is really hard. Michael Hingson ** 46:29 So certainly, being a lab manager or Well, dealing with managers in the way we're talking about it here, has to be very stressful. How do you how do you cope with the stress? Scott Hanton ** 46:42 So I think ways to cope with the stress successfully is, first of all, you've got to take care of yourself. You know, we've all flown on airplanes, and what is the safety person in the aisle or on the video? Do oxygen masks will fall from the ceiling, and what do we do with them? We put them on before we help somebody else, right? We all know that. But in the workplace, especially as a manager, it's hard to remember that as we care for our team and try and take care of our team, there might not be enough time or energy or capacity left to take care of ourselves, but if we don't fill that gas tank every day doing something, then we can't help our team. And so one way to deal with the stress is to make sure that you take care of yourself. So Michael Hingson ** 47:28 what do you do? How do you deal with that? So Scott Hanton ** 47:31 for me, ways that I can reinvigorate is one. I like being outside and get my hands dirty. So I'm not really a gardener, but I call myself a yard dinner. So I grow grass and I grow flowers, and I trim trees, and I want to go outside, and I want to see immediate return on my effort, and I want it to be better than when I started. And it's good if I have to clean from under my fingernails when I'm doing it. Another thing I like to do is I play all kinds of games I'm happy to play, sorry, with little kids, or I'll play complicated strategy games with people who want to sit at a table for three or four hours at a time. Yeah? And that allows my brain to spin and to work but on something completely different. Yeah. And another thing that's been important for me, especially when I was a lab manager is to be involved in youth coaching, so I coached kids soccer and basketball and baseball teams, and it's just beautiful to be out there on a field with a ball, with kids. And you know, the worries of the world just aren't there. The kids don't know anything about them. And it's fun to work with the ones who are really good, but it's equally fun to work with the ones who have never seen the ball before, and to help them do even the most basic things. And that kind of giving back and paying it forward, that sort of stuff fills my tank. Michael Hingson ** 48:51 Yeah, I empathize a lot with with that. For me, I like to read. I've never been much of a gardener, but I also collect, as I mentioned before, old radio shows, and I do that because I'm fascinated by the history and all the things I learned from what people did in the 2030s, 40s and 50s, being on radio, much Less getting the opportunity to learn about the technical aspects of how they did it, because today it's so different in terms of how one edits, how one processes and deals with sounds and so on, but it's but it's fun to do something just totally different than way maybe what your normal Job would be, and and I do love to interact with with people. I love to play games, too. I don't get to do nearly as much of it as I'd like, but playing games is, is a lot of fun, Scott Hanton ** 49:52 and I agree, and it it's fun, it's diverting, it's it helps me get into a flow so that I'm focused on. Me on one thing, and I have no idea how much time has gone by, and I don't really care. You know, people who play games with me might question this. I don't really care if I win or lose. Certainly I want to win, but it's more important to me that I play well, and if somebody plays better, good for Michael Hingson ** 50:14 them, great. You'll learn from it. Exactly. Do you play Scott Hanton ** 50:18 chess? I have played chess. I've played a lot of chess. What I've learned with chess is that I'm not an excellent I'm a good player, but not an excellent player. And when I run into excellent players, they will beat me without even breaking a sweat. Michael Hingson ** 50:34 And again, in theory, you learn something from that. Scott Hanton ** 50:37 What I found is that I don't really want to work that hard and yeah. And so by adding an element of chance or probability to the game, the people who focus on chess, where there are known answers and known situations, they get thrown off by the uncertainty of the of the flip the card or roll the dice. And my brain loves that uncertainty, so I tend to thrive. Maybe it's from my time in the lab with elements of uncertainty, where the chess players wilt under elements of uncertainty, and it's again, it's back to our strengths, right? That's something that I'm good at, so I'm gonna go do it. I've Michael Hingson ** 51:20 always loved Trivial Pursuit. That's always been a fun game that I enjoy playing. I Scott Hanton ** 51:25 do love Trivial Pursuit. I watch Jeopardy regularly. A funny story, when we moved into our new house in Pennsylvania, it was a great neighborhood. Loved the neighbors there. When we first moved in, they invited my wife and I to a game night. Excellent. We love games. We're going to play Trivial Pursuit. Awesome like Trivial Pursuit. We're going to play as couples. Bad idea, right? Let's play boys against the girls, or, let's say, random draws. No, we're playing as couples. Okay, so we played as couples. Helen and I won every game by a large margin. We were never invited back for game night. Yeah, invited back for lots of other things, but not game night. Michael Hingson ** 52:06 One of the things that, and I've talked about it with people on this podcast before, is that all too often, when somebody reads a question from a trivial pursuit card, an answer pops in your head, then you went, Oh, that was too easy. That can't be the right answer. So you think about it, and you answer with something else, but invariably, that first answer was always the correct answer. Scott Hanton ** 52:32 Yes, I'm I have learned to trust my intuition. Yeah. I learned, as a research scientist, that especially in talking to some of my peers, who are very dogmatic, very step by step scientists. And they lay out the 20 steps to that they felt would be successful. And they would do one at a time, one through 20. And that made them happy for me, I do one and two, and then I'd predict where that data led me, and I do experiment number seven, and if it worked, I'm off to eight. And so I they would do what, one step at a time, one to 20, and I'd sort of do 127, 1420, yeah. And that I learned that that intuition was powerful and valuable, and I've learned to trust it. And in my lab career, it served me really well. But also as a manager, it has served me well to trust my intuition, and at least to listen to it. And if I need to analyze it, I can do that, but I'm going to listen to it, Michael Hingson ** 53:31 and that's the important thing, because invariably, it's going to give you useful information, and it may be telling you not what to do, but still trusting it and listening to it is so important, I've found that a lot over the years, Scott Hanton ** 53:47 Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called Blink, where he talks about the power of the subconscious, and his claim is that the subconscious is 100,000 times smarter than our conscious brain, and I think when we are trusting our intuition, we're tapping into that super computer that's in our skulls. If you want to learn more, read blank. It's a great story. Michael Hingson ** 54:10 I hear you. I agree. How can people learn to be better leaders and managers? Scott Hanton ** 54:18 So I think it's there's really three normal ways that people do this. One is the power of experiment, right? And I did plenty of that, and I made tons of errors. It's painful. It's irritating, trial and error, but I used to tell people at Intertech that I was the general manager because I'd made the most mistakes, which gave me the most opportunity to learn. It was also partly because a lot of my peers wanted nothing to do with the job. You know, they wanted to be scientists. Another way is we, we get coached and mentored by people around us, and that is awesome if you have good supervisors, and it's tragic if you have bad supervisors, because you don't know any better and you take for granted. That the way it's been done is the way it needs to be done, and that prevents us from being generative leaders and questioning the status quo. So there's problems there, too. And I had both good and bad supervisors during my career. I had some awful, toxic human beings who were my supervisors, who did damage to me, and then I had some brilliant, caring, empathetic people who raised me up and helped me become the leader that I am today. So it's a bit of a crap shoot. The third way is go out and learn it from somebody who's done it right, and that's why we generated the lab manager Academy to try to codify all the mistakes I made and what are the learnings from them? And when I'm talking with learners who are in the program, it's we have a huge positive result feedback on our courses. And what I talk to people about who take our courses is I'm glad you appreciate what we've put together here. That makes me feel good. I'm glad it's helping you. But when these are my mistakes and the answers to my mistakes, when you make mistakes, you need to in the future, go make some courses and teach people what the lessons were from your mistakes and pay it forward. Yeah. So I recommend getting some training. Michael Hingson ** 56:17 What's the difference between management and leadership? Scott Hanton ** 56:21 I particularly love a quote from Peter Drucker. So Peter Drucker was a professor in California. You may have heard of him before. Michael Hingson ** 56:29 I have. I never had the opportunity to meet him, but I read. Scott Hanton ** 56:34 I didn't either material. I've read his books, and I think he is an insightful human being, yes. So the quote goes like this, management is doing things right. Leadership is doing the right things. So as a technical manager, there's a bunch of things we have to get right. We have to get safety right. We have to get quality right. There's an accuracy and precision that we need to get right for our outcomes and our results. Those are management tasks, but leadership is about doing the right things. And the interesting thing about that definition is it doesn't require a title or a role or any level of authority. So anyone can be a leader if you're consistently doing the right things, you are exhibiting leadership, and that could be from the person sweeping the floors or the person approving the budget, or anyone in between. Michael Hingson ** 57:33 Yeah, I've heard that quote from him before, and absolutely agree with it. It makes a whole lot of sense. Scott Hanton ** 57:41 Other definitions that I've seen trying to distinguish management and leadership tend to use the words manage and lead, and I don't like definitions that include the words that they're trying to define. They become circular at some level. This one, I think, is clear about it, what its intention is, and for me, it has worked through my career, and so the separation is valuable. I have authority. I'm the manager. I have accountability to get some stuff right, but anyone can lead, and everyone can lead, and the organization works so much better when it's full of leaders Michael Hingson ** 58:21 and leaders who are willing to recognize when they bring something to the table, or if someone else can add value in ways that they can't, to be willing to let the other individual take the leadership position for a while. Scott Hanton ** 58:40 Absolutely, and you know that really comes down to building an environment and a culture that's supportive. And so Amy Edmondson has written extensively on the importance of psychological safety, and that psychological safety hinges on what you just said, right? If the guy who sweeps the floor has an observation about the organization. Do they feel safe to go tell the person in charge that this observation, and if they feel safe, and if that leader is sufficiently vulnerable and humble to listen with curiosity about that observation, then everybody benefits, yeah, and the more safe everyone feels. We think about emotion. Emotional safety is they anyone can bring their best self to work, and psychological safety is they can contribute their ideas and observations with no threat of retaliation, then we have an environment where we're going to get the best out of everybody, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 59:46 which is the way it it really ought to be. And all too often we don't necessarily see it, but that is the way it ought Scott Hanton ** 59:53 to be. Too many people are worried about credit, or, I don't know, worried about things that I don't see. Yeah, and they waste human potential, right? They they don't open their doors to hire anybody. They they judge people based on what they look like instead of who they are, or they box people in into roles, and don't let them flourish and Excel. And whenever you're doing those kinds of things, you're wasting human potential. And businesses, science and business are too hard to waste human potential. We need to take advantage of everything that people are willing to give. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 1:00:33 we've been doing this for quite a while already today. So I'm going to ask as a kind of a last question, what, what advice do you want to leave for people to think about going forward in their lives and in their careers? Scott Hanton ** 1:00:48 So I was participating in a LinkedIn chat today where a professor was asking the question, what sort of advice would you wish you got when you were 21 Okay, so it was an interesting thread, and there was one contributor to the thread who said something I thought was particularly valuable. And she said, attitude matters. Attitude matters. We can't control what happens to us, but we can control how we deal with it and how we respond, right? And so I think if we can hold our attitude as our accountability, and we can direct our strengths and our talents to applying them against the challenges that the business or the science or the lab or the community faces, and we can go in with some positive attitude and positive desire for for change and improvement, and we can be vulnerable and humble enough to accept other people's ideas and to interact through discussion and healthy debate. Then everything's better. I also like Kelleher his quote he was the co founder of Southwest Airlines, and he said, when you're hiring, hire for attitude, train for skill. Attitude is so important. So I think, understand your attitude. Bring the attitude you want, the attitude you value, the attitude that's that's parallel to your core values. And then communicate to others about their attitude and how it's working or not working for them. Michael Hingson ** 1:02:31 And hopefully, if they have a positive or good enough attitude, they will take that into consideration and grow because of it absolutely Scott Hanton ** 1:02:41 gives everybody the chance to be the best they can be. Michael Hingson ** 1:02:47 Well, Scott, this has been wonderful. If people want to reach out to you, how can they do that? Scott Hanton ** 1:02:51 So LinkedIn is great. I've provided Michael my LinkedIn connection. So I would love to have people connect to me on LinkedIn or email. S Hanson at lab manager.com love to have interactions with the folks out there. Michael Hingson ** 1:03:08 Well, I want to thank you for spending so much time. We'll have to do more of this. Scott Hanton ** 1:03:13 Michael, I really enjoyed it. This was a fun conversation. It was stimulating. You asked good questio

god love new york university california children ai english master leadership new york times phd michigan writing masters vice president leader new jersey pennsylvania emotional iphone wisconsin hospitals academy driving bs blind loved southern california attitude ambassadors thunder notre dame general managers stitcher syria back to the future ebooks usc chemistry unstoppable studying excel jeopardy younger michigan state university newton rochester sims lab blink american society merger irvine rutgers university mrna world trade center cro schultz southwest airlines ic wisconsin madison dale carnegie operations managers merck lockheed martin cracker barrel chief scientist american red cross xyz uc irvine uci editorial director peter drucker allentown doc brown maldi national federation trivial pursuit kelleher saginaw ray kurzweil amy edmondson michael h library science exxon mobile chief vision officer leeson federal express scripps college vernier dills michael hingson rayleigh lab manager accessibe american humane association intertek section manager thunder dog hero dog awards intertech

Episode 355 – Unstoppable Basketball Expert, Author and Leader with Angela Lewis

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 22, 2025 61:28

Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, on a gracious hello to you, wherever you happen to be today, I am your host, Mike Hingson, and you are listening or watching unstoppable mindset today, our guest is Angela Lewis, and Angela is going to tell us a lot about basketball. That's because she played she played overseas, she has coached and just any number of things relating to basketball, but she's also helped athletes. She is an author, and I'm not going to say anymore. I'd rather she brag about herself. So Angela, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Angela Lewis ** 02:00 Michael, thank you so much for having me. It's so excited to chat with you. Michael Hingson ** 02:05 Well, tell us a little bit about kind of the early Angela growing up and all that. Angela Lewis ** 02:11 Well, I am six foot one inches tall. I've been this tall since I was 12 years old. Michael Hingson ** 02:17 Hey, you stopped Angela Lewis ** 02:18 growing huh? I stopped I've been this tall for 30 years. I know it could have spread out a bit. I could have gotten a few inches a year over, you know, time, but no, I grew really fast and stopped. But at six foot, one and 12 years old, I was really uncomfortable and felt out of place most often. And one day, a coach saw me and asked me to come and play on the basketball team. And Michael, basketball found me. I wasn't looking to play. I wasn't looking for a team, hoping to get an nio deal like you know, my kids are doing these days, because it's available. No basketball found me, and it really helped transform me into the person I am today. Michael Hingson ** 03:03 How? How? So? Why was that Angela Lewis ** 03:07 I was really I was very insecure, very uncomfortable. I felt really out of place. And basketball gave me this tribe of people who there were other tall girls. I learned how to work really hard. And although I was tall, people thought I was really good or I should be good. So I learned how to work through like not being really good at something, to ultimately playing professionally. And so that really sticks with me today, and learning how to just persevere. Michael Hingson ** 03:40 Well you, you did really well at basketball. Obviously, I assume at least part of it had to do with height, but there had to be a whole lot more to it than that. You scored over 1000 points, lots of rebounds and so on. So it had to be more than height, though, right? 100% Angela Lewis ** 03:57 definitely more than height, because I wasn't being I wasn't very good. I wasn't good at all. I was new to the game when I started, and so I missed a ton of shots. I had to learn how to work hard, how to get back up after being knocked down, and really not feeling good the entire time I'm playing. But learning, you know, listening to coaches, all of that played a big role in my overall development and willingness to get up early and get to the gym when no one else was there. That stuff pays off and Michael Hingson ** 04:30 practice, yeah. Why is it that some people who score lots of points make really great shots are not necessarily good free throwers, Angela Lewis ** 04:42 free throws. Shooting great free throws requires a different level of concentration. Everyone everything is stopped, everyone's focused on you, and some of it is just repetition and practice. There are people like Shaq who did shoot great from the free throw line. But of course. Incredibly, incredibly dominant. Michael Hingson ** 05:02 Yeah. Well, he was one of the ones I was thinking of because it's, you know, I don't, needless to say, play basketball, but it just seems to me it ought to be reasonably easy for people who are great shooters to be able to do great free throwing as well. But that's not the case. And I kind of figured, and I think I've heard from a couple of other people, it's a whole different skill, and just because you're a wonderful shooter, it doesn't necessarily at all mean you'll be a good free thrower. Angela Lewis ** 05:31 No, no, it doesn't. It doesn't. And Shaq was just a unique human in terms of his size and the size of his hand. So Shaq didn't shoot a lot of jump shots. He was often dunking on people or shooting layups or something a bit closer to the basket, where the percentages are even higher than at the free throw line. So it made it a little a little different in his case, Michael Hingson ** 05:52 well, and you also and then had other people like wilt, Chamberlain, Kareem, Abdul, Jabbar and so many other people. And now what I really love is that we're starting to see that women are being appreciated. I mean, Caitlin Clark and so many other people are and Paige Becker, right? Who you mentioned earlier, Becker, and that is great to see, and I'm glad that that we're starting to see women come into their own, and I hope that that will include, as time goes on, better compensation, so that salaries are similar with male counterparts, because the people who are excellent at the game on from either Sex deserve it, Angela Lewis ** 06:40 agreed, and it is. It's incredible, Michael, as you said, to see so much visibility and so much attention on women's sports, I think we hit a perfect storm for the women's game with three things, social media. So now you have these young women who have all these followings, who have all these followers, and it just makes sense for brands to align with them, to sell more products, but then also the n, i, L deal is the perfect storm. Now the players can get paid off their name, image and likeness, and it's going to end. The end the controversy with Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese and the national championship a few years ago that just created so much of a media frenzy that it really has helped increase the visibility of women's basketball and other women's sports and for that Michael Hingson ** 07:29 matter, yeah. Now are women will women's basketball, or is women's basketball in the Olympics? Angela Lewis ** 07:36 Yes, yes, won the gold this year, Yes, yep. Has won the gold. The USA team is one to go. Yeah, consistently, Michael Hingson ** 07:45 as it should be, we're we're not prejudice, are we? Angela Lewis ** 07:49 No, not at all. No, not at all, at all. No, definitely not bias. Well, Michael Hingson ** 07:55 right? Well, tell me, um, so you were tall at a very young age, as it were, but obviously you had, you had insecurities, but you dealt with them. Was it all because of the basketball or what? What really made you comfortable in your skin? Angela Lewis ** 08:14 I think what made me comfortable is there were, there's who I was on the court, and then there's who I was off the court. My family, I'm so grateful to come from a family that's incredibly supportive. I had older brothers who played so although they would push me, you know, to be tougher, because I wasn't very tough. Michael, I'm the kid that looked at the butterflies and the squirrels. I was like forced to be aggressive and competitive. But my parents, my mom and dad, are both from Mississippi, and they grew up in a really challenging time, and so I think what helped shaped me was the humility and love from family Michael Hingson ** 08:58 and comparing notes today. Who's the better basketball player, you or your brothers Angela Lewis ** 09:05 me, by far. Okay, they may say something different, but if you know, if we just look at the stats, statistically speaking, you know what? Definitely win that one. What do they do today? One of them is, one of them is works at both of them work in education. One is like the associate superintendent of a school district in the St Louis area. The other one is a college professor. So they do, they do, well, I'm proud of them. Michael Hingson ** 09:37 That's cool. Well, you know, but, but you, you, you did have supportive parents, and that's so important. I mean, I know, for for me, my parents rejected all the comments that doctors and others made when they discovered that I was blind and said, I ought to just be sent to a home. And my parents said, Absolutely not. And I totally i. Hmm, thank my parents for their attitudes, because it it really helped shape who I am today and why I'm able to function. So I, I agree with you, and I I'm glad that you had really good, supportive parents, because it had to be unusual for them to see a six foot one girl at the age of 12, Angela Lewis ** 10:22 it was very unusual. My mom used to have to take my birth certificate with me to tournaments because people didn't believe that I was as young as I was. In addition, you know, I think Michael playing sports and anything that you're involved in doesn't just impact you and impacts your family as well, for those families who who choose to support their kids through whatever. So my family didn't travel at all, and we went to Memphis, Tennessee and Mount Bayou, Mississippi, because we have family members that live there. But it wasn't until I started playing sports where we started going other places. And so things opened up for not only myself, but for my family as well. Michael Hingson ** 11:06 Well, it's always nice to have the opportunity to stretch and grow and experience new things Angela Lewis ** 11:13 100% and it's not always comfortable, but it definitely helps us and shapes us differently Michael Hingson ** 11:23 well, so you were an NCAA division one. You scored a lot of points. You clearly accomplished a great deal. What did you do that helped create the mindset that made that happen? Angela Lewis ** 11:40 Environment makes a big difference who you choose to listen to. I feel like, when in any organization, whether it's a sports team or a business or even community organization, what created the mindset is listening to those coaches and those people who have already been through it, but also on like, when things are really hard, when there's preseason conditioning, or there's a report that's due, being willing to say, Okay, I know I don't feel like it, but I'm going to do it anyway. And knowing that when you make mistakes, I remember missing the shot to win a game against Cincinnati and being really down about it, but having a coach come to me and say, It's okay, you got to move on to the next game, the next play, being willing to keep going in spite of making mistakes, that creates that unstoppable mindset. It's not just you, it's the people in your circle as well who can help foster that for you. Michael Hingson ** 12:36 So that's easy for a coach to say, but how did you internalize it and make that really a part of your psyche? Angela Lewis ** 12:45 One of the ways that I internalized it, that's such a good question. Michael is visualizing like running through the play in my mind? Think watching the game film, because some of it, so much of growth happens. We can reflect on what didn't go right, what went right, and then be able to make those changes for the future. Michael Hingson ** 13:10 Well, yeah, and I think introspection and internalization is such an important thing, and all too, many of us just don't, don't take that step back to analyze and think about what we're doing and why we're doing it and and how we're doing it, and what can we do better? And clearly, that's something that you did a fair amount of, and you got answers that worked for you. Angela Lewis ** 13:38 It's essential in sport. I think that's one of the things that I carry over, is we were forced. I can't sit up here and act like I was introspective before, yeah, but by no means, it's you. You learn and train on what what works, and that's one of the things that really works. And introspection is is critical. Michael Hingson ** 13:57 How would you take that beyond sports? I mean, clearly that helps you in sports, but I would assume that you would say it helps you in life in general, wouldn't you, Angela Lewis ** 14:09 absolutely, especially when there's conflict. So for example, I had a situation in my family where I will where I essentially just broke down from giving so much, and I realized that, oh, once I once, I was able to step away from the situation and reflect, I was able to see how I could have communicated better. Oh, I could have created some better boundaries, or maybe I could have planned better. So, so there will always be tension. There's always the potential for conflict, but being able to reflect on it to make sure that you get better in the future is kind of how you can apply those apply that same process to life, Michael Hingson ** 14:53 yeah, so on the basketball court and so on leaving this. Stats out of it. Do you think that people considered you a leader in terms of just being a team leader, as part of the team, but taking the lead? Or did you even think about that? Angela Lewis ** 15:16 Oh, leadership is one of those, really, it's layered. So I think I was a leader, definitely a leader in terms of how hard I worked and I and I can say that my teammates respected how hard I worked at this age. Looking back at my, you know, 20 year old self, there are some other ways that I think I could have been a better leader in terms of communication, in terms of accountability, holding others accountable more, holding myself accountable more in some areas. So yes, I would say in terms of just the willingness to put in the work, I think I would definitely been considered a leader, despite the number of points that I scored, but scoring the points helped, Michael Hingson ** 16:00 if you could go back and talk to your 20 year old self, what? What kinds of things would you tell her? Angela Lewis ** 16:06 I would tell her. I would tell her three things. First, I would say, show yourself some grace. You already work hard like it's okay, it's okay to make mistakes. You are going to make mistakes. I took mistakes really hard. I would also say, get to know as many people as possible at your university and on your team and in the athletic department. What we know later is that relationships are everything, the relationships that you have, so be more intentional about relationships. And then I would also say, give yourself credit, because as an athlete, and you know, when you're pursuing something, you're never good enough, you're always pushing for the next thing. So I would have celebrated some of the wins a bit more. Michael Hingson ** 16:52 Yeah, the the only thing to to be aware of, though, is to be careful and not let that, as you would say, go to your head and become egotistical about it. It's important to do. But there's, it's like the fastest gun in the West. There's always somebody faster, Angela Lewis ** 17:10 yes, 100% Michael Hingson ** 17:14 now, where did you go to? College? Angela Lewis ** 17:16 St Louis University. Oh, okay, Billikens. So what made you go there? I went to St Louis University because it was close to home. That was part of it. There were a Nike school. I'm also like the brand of Nike, and it was a great institution. Academically, still is what is your family to be able communication? Michael Hingson ** 17:39 Okay, that worked out. Well, yes, since being in office, 17:45 exactly so Michael Hingson ** 17:49 you did you go beyond your bachelor's degree? Angela Lewis ** 17:52 I did masters at St Louis University as well. Michael Hingson ** 17:57 Okay, communication, Angela Lewis ** 17:58 so, yes, okay, Michael Hingson ** 18:00 and then what did you do after college? Angela Lewis ** 18:04 After college, went to Germany and played basketball professionally. It was my first time traveling internationally and living abroad, which really changed the core of me. Michael Hingson ** 18:16 Well, why did you decide to go professional for basketball. That's a little different than a degree in communications, but maybe not so much. But why did you, why did you decide to Go Pro? As it were, Angela Lewis ** 18:30 it's a rare opportunity, very rare opportunity, to play professionally and to have the opportunity as something I dreamed of once I got to college, and then, honestly, Michael, I would have gone anywhere to play basketball. I love the game so much I would have gone anywhere, so I'm grateful that I had the opportunity. Michael Hingson ** 18:51 How did the opportunity to go to Germany and play there come about? Were you approached? What happened? Angela Lewis ** 18:56 It came about because I was looking for an agent, and one of my college coaches, my college the head coach, Jill pazzi, knew someone who had an agent in Germany, and we sent her my game film. We sent the agent my game film, and she said she wanted to represent me, and she had a team there that wanted me to come out and be on the team. And so after I graduated, it was kind of it was very much a waiting game to win it to a person. And so I was really excited when I found out about the opportunity. Michael Hingson ** 19:37 That's cool. And how did you do compared to to other people on the team and so on? Were you still a high score? Were you still a leader or or not? Angela Lewis ** 19:52 Michael Germany was really unique, because everyone on my team didn't speak English, so I did well. I. I did well. I scored double digits. Can't remember the exact average, but it was like around 15 or 16 points per game, and I did really well, and was a leader in that way. But it was completely it was a complete cultural shift because of the people from different parts of the world. So it took a different level of navigating than playing. Here. Michael Hingson ** 20:21 Did you learn German? Angela Lewis ** 20:24 I Yes, and no little bit yes and no a little bit, Michael, we were part of the contract. Was German classes, and I will never forget, I was in the German class with a woman from Russia who was on my team and a woman from Hungary who was on my team and I, the teacher, asked us to pronounce a word. I can't remember the word. All I remember is I attempted to pronounce the word, and everyone started laughing at me. And it was the first time in my life that I gained the sensitivity for people who attempt to speak another language, because it is really hard. I was so embarrassed, and I was like, Okay, I get it now. So my German is very minimal Michael Hingson ** 21:11 well, and like a lot of things, if you had started to learn German or any language at a much younger age, you would have probably been a lot better off and more malleable and and learned how to adapt and have that second language, but you weren't learning it after college. So it was a different situation, Angela Lewis ** 21:33 completely different. You're absolutely right. I did this basketball clinic in monies Columbia a few years ago, and although it was a little different than German, I was able to pick up on Spanish a bit more, and lived in Medellin, Colombia for a few years. But being immersed makes a difference for sure. Michael Hingson ** 21:54 Yeah, immersion makes a makes a huge difference, because you're you're put in a position where you know you have to learn enough to be able to get by, and you Angela Lewis ** 22:05 do, yes, well, you said that, I recommend it. Michael Hingson ** 22:09 You said that going to Germany really changed your total core. How was that? Angela Lewis ** 22:15 I knew that I would be okay anywhere I was in Germany before there was WhatsApp and zoom, and I was in Germany during the dial up days and the calling card days, yeah. And so being able to navigate the world at a time where you didn't have Google Translate really helped me be comfortable being in uncomfortable settings, because I went to university in the same place that I grew up, so it was my first time away from home in another country, and having to figure it out, and to do that at such a young age, really shifted who I was in relation to where I came from. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 23:02 so what did it what did it do to you? Ultimately, Angela Lewis ** 23:07 ultimately, it allowed me to learn how to rely on others, people that I don't know, because I needed help just navigating how to get from one place to another. It created a sense of curiosity of other people, and a food and culture that didn't exist before, and a level of resilience. There were so many things that went wrong, like losing my bags, getting on the wrong train, getting almost being locked up. I mean, so many things that that went left in that experience that has taught me some resilience of having to continue to push through. Michael Hingson ** 23:45 Yeah, I went to Israel for accessibe Two years ago, this coming August, and was at the corporate headquarters, and then a cab one day took me back to the hotel, but didn't drop me off at the front of the hotel. And so it was a totally strange area. And I remember even questioning, did they really drop me off at the hotel? But I realized that if I calm down, I can analyze this and figure it out, and I figured out what eventually happened. They didn't drop me off at the front of the hotel. They dropped me off at the entrance of the parking lot, which was on the well underground parking garage, which was on the side of the hotel. But the reality is that that we can do a lot of things if we just focus and don't panic. Angela Lewis ** 24:38 Yes, ah, that's good advice. Yes, Michael Hingson ** 24:44 go ahead. Angela Lewis ** 24:46 Oh no, I was just gonna say being able to relax and control your emotional state really helps you make better decisions. Michael Hingson ** 24:53 It does, and that's what it's really all about, which is also part of what. So being introspective and thinking about what you're doing is so important at night or whenever you can find the time to do it. And should find the time every day people should. But by doing that, you really look at yourself, and you look at how you react to different situations, and you you figure out, Oh, I could have done this. Or if I just did a little bit more of that, I would have been a better situation. We can teach ourselves so many things if we would choose to do that. 25:29 Yes, yes. 100% Michael Hingson ** 25:33 well, so how long did you play basketball in Germany? I Angela Lewis ** 25:38 played basketball in Germany for one season, and then came back to St Louis and got married, which is another that's another podcast, that's another interview, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 25:50 well, I hope that the marriage is working out. Angela Lewis ** 25:53 No, it didn't. Oh, but I learned some No, it's okay. I brought it up. No, no, it's okay. I brought it up. But I learned so much from that experience as well. So I came back, got married, and started coaching, and I'm coached in high school and college about NCAA division one, and it was just an incredible experience to stay around the game and post the game and then teach and mentor. Michael Hingson ** 26:19 Well, you clearly bring a pretty strong personality to the whole thing. And I'm, you know, I'm sure there are a lot of guys who wouldn't cope with that very well either Angela Lewis ** 26:30 you're right. That's fair. Well, you know, since I saw every story, but no, I'm grateful for that experience in so so many ways. Michael Hingson ** 26:38 Yeah, well, yeah, there's always lots to learn. So, so you coached high school, you coached College Division One, which is cool. So are you still doing some of that? Or what do you do now? Angela Lewis ** 26:54 Now I'm not coaching on the court anymore, but I work with a company called Speaker hub, and I am head of operations, and so I lead a team of 24 incredible, incredible professionals who live around the world and help more people get on stages and share their messages. So I'm still coaching, but just not on the court. Michael Hingson ** 27:19 It's not on the court well, but you learned a great skill. Angela Lewis ** 27:25 Yes, basketball teaches so many, so many Michael Hingson ** 27:27 skills, and do you still play basketball occasionally? Angela Lewis ** 27:31 Every now and then I get out there and I get shots up, I don't play five on five anymore. Yes, I don't train to play and I just don't want to get hurt like a big fear of mine. So I'll still go out there and shoot, and I love it. I'll play course against anybody. Michael Hingson ** 27:48 Well, yeah, there's, yeah there. There's a whole lot to it. And you're not working on being well in tip top training, in that way like you used to be, which is okay, but you know what you're doing, and that's what really matters. Well, you've coached a lot of people. What lessons did you learn from doing that? And what lessons did you learn from some of the people you coached? Angela Lewis ** 28:13 From coaching, I've learned that you have to listen. Listening is the most important part of actually coaching, because different people need to be coached in a different way. Everyone gets held accountable, but some people may need more one on one attention. Some people may need more direct communication. Other people may just need you to listen to them and and guide them a bit more. So that's that's what I've learned about coaching, what I've learned from people that I've coached, I would say the there's someone I work with now, Maria. She's our head designer, and she she needs direct feedback about the work that she's doing, more than maybe some other people, feedback is important, but depending on who a person is, they need more feedback and guidance. And so Maria is someone who really loves that direct feedback, whereas some others are are able to work a bit differently. So knowing how to give feedback is something that I've worked on, and that, you know, Michael is learning coaching, coaching. It's always learning. Not only are you helping others, but you're learning from them and their expertise as well. Michael Hingson ** 29:33 Do you find that there are some people who really ought to get feedback, who just refuse to accept it or refuse to listen to it at all, even though they probably really should. Angela Lewis ** 29:45 There are some. There are some. When I, when I was coaching college basketball, there were definitely players who just didn't want to hear it, or they thought they had it all figured out. Yeah, so that part is hard in the workplace is a little different because, you know, there's. Compensation associated with performance. But back then, when I coached, it was a little Yeah, there were definitely some kids with egos, Michael Hingson ** 30:08 yeah, and even with compensation and so on, feedback can help people improve, if they would, but listen, Angela Lewis ** 30:17 true, very, very true. Thankfully, we have a great team. Everyone's pretty open. Michael Hingson ** 30:22 That's good. Tell me more about speaker hub? Angela Lewis ** 30:26 Sure, sure. So we have, we are a speakers bureau where everyone reaches out and pitches to different organizations on their own. So we have a membership where people will get access to over 4 million contacts. We have conferences associations. We have podcasts as well as media outlets where people can pitch and really reach out to share their expertise and about their businesses and grow their business through using public speaking to grow their business. Mm, so we we have a platform that we update literally every week that has the contacts and are able to reach out to search and reach out to people directly inside of our platform. Michael Hingson ** 31:20 What do you think about this whole concept, since we're on the subject of speaking, of public speaking is one of the biggest fears that people have in this country and probably all over the world. How do we deal with getting rid of that fear? Why do we have it in the first place? I've never had it. I've never been afraid to speak, and sometimes I may not be the first person to speak, but I've never been afraid to speak my mind or to go out and speak. In fact, one of my favorite stories is that after September 11, my first official speech, if you will, came about because a pastor of a church called in New Jersey, and he said, we're going to be doing a service for all the people from New Jersey who were lost on September 11. Would you come and take about five or six minutes and tell your story? And I said, Sure, I'd be happy to, because we were living in New Jersey still at the time. And then I asked, how many people are going to be coming to the to the service, he said, oh, about 6000 so that was my first official public speech. As such, I was used to speaking in a variety of environments, because I had spoken to anything from company boards to IT professionals, and also did speaking at church and so on. But still, 6000 would intimidate a lot of people. It did bother me a bit to do that. Angela Lewis ** 32:45 That says a lot about about you and your willingness to to share. I think some people are more comfortable, naturally comfortable to your point, others are. It's afraid of judgment. Fear of judgment is real. Fear of having everyone looking at you and hearing you and questioning your your your abilities, is something that people are are really afraid of. Michael Hingson ** 33:13 So I think it's no go ahead. Angela Lewis ** 33:17 I think it's something that people can develop more comfortable with with practice that can help, and also getting feedback and practicing in settings that are less than 6000 and gradually working their way up. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 33:33 I think, I think, though, least in my opinion, unless you're just a really scroungy individual and so on. Audiences, when you go to speak somewhere, want you to succeed. They want to hear what you have to say, and unless you just can't relate at all, audiences want you to be successful. And I've always had that belief. So that's probably another reason that I have never really been afraid to go out and speak, but after that 6000 person event, I still wasn't thinking of becoming a public speaker, but we started getting so many phone calls, as my wife and I both love to start to say, selling life and philosophy is a whole lot more fun than selling computer hardware and managing a hardware sales team. So by the beginning of 2002 it was clear that that a different window was opening and another door was closing, and it was time to go do something different. And so I've been speaking ever since, and it's it is so much fun to go to places. I've been to to places where event managers have hired me. People within the company have hired me to come and speak. And it turns out, as we talk more when I'm there, they're they were just so nervous, oh, is it going to go well? Is he going to be successful? Is this whole thing going to go well? And one of the things that several of those people have done is they've assumed. Interested me when we sell books afterward, I always like to have somebody who can handle the credit card machine, because I sign books and I brought my little credit card thing. So other people actually do that. And so some of the event, people have just stayed with me. And people come up and they say, what a wonderful talk. It's the best talk we ever heard. So it makes people feel comfortable. But those event people are often times much more nervous than I am, because, because I just feel nervous. Angela Lewis ** 35:29 I love what you said, Michael, you believe that they want you to do well. And belief is such a powerful part of our lives. What what we believe, makes such a difference. And so the fact that you believe it and and you've done it so much, it brings ease, I'm sure, to some of the event planners over time, because they know that you're going to do well. One Michael Hingson ** 35:51 of the things that I've learned is that I don't do well at reading speeches for a lot of reasons. The the main one is I like I've found that I do better when I customize the talk, and I'm able to use customization sometimes even right up to in the in the beginning of a speech, customizing it to get the audience to react as I expect them to and when. And I can tell when an audience is reacting positively or is is liking what they're hearing, just by the the subtle movements and the subtle noises that I hear around the the room, and if I'm not hearing some of those things that I expect to hear, then I will change something to address the issue, because I believe that when I go to speak, my job is to relate to the audience, to talk with the audience, not to the audience, and to do everything that I can to draw them in. And so one of the things that that I now tell people is being involved with the World Trade Center, and now we have a whole generation that that has had no experience with it. My job is to take them into the building with me and take them down the stairs with me and get them out with me, as if they were there. And people come up and say, later, we were with you all the way down the stairs, which is so cool. Angela Lewis ** 37:16 That is That is really cool too. It sounds like you really care about your audience, which is something that makes a difference in terms of someone's comfort, if they think, Oh, this is a this speech is and I'm talking about, Oh, me, but you're carrying people along with you and actually helping them through your storytelling, which makes a difference. Michael Hingson ** 37:39 Oh, it does make a difference. But I and you said something very, very relevant. It is all about telling stories. And I wish more people would tell stories. I believe, and I believe for years, having gotten a master's degree in physics, that one of the big problems with physics textbooks is they're so dry, they just do all the math and all that sort of stuff. If the authors, who are oftentimes very famous physicists would include a few stories in their books. There would be much better textbooks, and they would attract much more interest from people. But getting people to tell stories is just so hard. Angela Lewis ** 38:13 Why do you think that is Michael Hingson ** 38:16 they don't know how they don't necessarily realize that telling stories is a very powerful way to teach. It's just not what they're used to, and they're not enough of us talking about it probably Angela Lewis ** 38:29 agree. 100% 100% we've we've been talking our whole lives, but telling stories and communicating in a way that connects with others isn't something that comes naturally for most. It takes practice. It Michael Hingson ** 38:43 takes practice. So it does I believe that the best salespeople in the world are people who tell stories, because when you're talking about a product, but let's say it's a it's a product that a customer really should have, if you can relate to them and with them by telling stories of successes with other companies, or how other companies have used it, or other things that you can determine are the kinds of things that would be interesting to whoever you're selling to, you have a much better chance to actually be successful and Make make the sale that you want to make. Angela Lewis ** 39:22 Yes, absolutely, we've all heard Yeah, Oh, nope, sorry, you go Michael Hingson ** 39:27 ahead. No, it's just insane, which is another way of saying, sales is all about storytelling. But go ahead. Angela Lewis ** 39:34 I was just gonna agree. I'm just agreeing with you on that. If we can get people to really understand and put themselves in in the situation, it makes a difference in their ability to to feel like you understand them and that you can connect and relate, Michael Hingson ** 39:51 right? And that's what you got to do, and it can be a very positive tool if you do. It right? And not everybody will tell stories in exactly the same way, but that's okay, but you still can learn how to tell stories so that whoever you're talking with can relate to it, and that's what it's about. Angela Lewis ** 40:13 It absolutely, yeah, absolutely is. Michael Hingson ** 40:17 Well, so how did you get involved with Speaker hub? Angela Lewis ** 40:21 I got involved with Speaker hub because I had a PR agency a few years ago, and I was our agency was helping people get on stages, but we were kind of but an agency where we did the pitching for our customers, and we and I built a team and hired people and put systems and processes in place, and the owner of speaker hub asked if our team could basically merge with the company. We weren't speaker hub before the company was called Pitch dB, and we and I built an agency using the software of pitch dB, and our agency was asked to basically merge, because we have the team, we have the operations, and he was great at marketing, is great at marketing and sales. And so our team rolled into this other company. So and then we purchased speaker hub, about eight months later, and so speaker hub, so our team helped grow speaker hub, Michael Hingson ** 41:27 and how many clients does speaker hub have today? Angela Lewis ** 41:32 We have over 60,000 people that use our platform. And so speaker hub asked, when we acquired speaker hub, there was Speaker hub was only a speaker page. So for example, Michael like LinkedIn, you can sign up, you can create a profile, and it has all of your information around your speaking topics, your background, your bio. And then we added the this software that allows people to reach out to different organizations, conferences and associations and media outlets. And so over 60,000 profiles are on speaker, hub of speakers from around the world. Wow. Michael Hingson ** 42:14 And people find it useful, and it's been very successful for them to find engagements and speak. Angela Lewis ** 42:21 Yes. Yes. There are two amazing things that have happened today. We have customer calls every single day at noon Eastern where people can hop on and learn. We had someone who is an event organizer who came on the call today to let us know about an event that he has coming up, that he's looking for speakers. So there's the organizer side, where organizers are looking and then there's the other side where people are actually pitching and reaching out. So people are getting books. Someone told us today that she got booked for a conference in Kenya, and they're going to all expenses paid to Kenya for her to come out and speak at this conference. So it's wonderful to see people Michael Hingson ** 43:05 opportunities. Yeah, that's exciting to see that kind of thing happening. Well, you have also written books. Tell me about Tell me about your books. Angela Lewis ** 43:17 My first book is called The Game Changing assist simple ways to choose success. This book uses the framework of the six vs for success, having a vision, choosing your voices that you listen to, understanding the values to get to that vision, how to make it out of the valley, reaching the point of victory and volunteering. And so that book really takes is for young women to take them on a journey through my experiences, to learn about how to accomplish their goals in life using those six principles. Michael Hingson ** 43:55 And even though it was written with young women in in mind, just on principle, out of curiosity, do you find that men read it as Angela Lewis ** 44:03 well? Yes, it's applicable for everyone. At that the time I wrote the book, I was doing a lot of coaching and training young women and running girls groups. So that's why that that group of people was the target. But absolutely, those principles can transfer to anyone. Michael Hingson ** 44:23 That's cool. So when did you write that one? When was that one? Angela Lewis ** 44:27 It was released in 2013 Michael Hingson ** 44:29 Oh, okay, then what? Angela Lewis ** 44:32 Then? Post moves the female athlete's guide to dominate life after college. That book is about mentoring, a lot of success in life for everyone, and is really built on mentoring and having great mentors. When I was a college athlete, the only professionals I knew were my coaches and my professors, and so that book, in that book, I. Interviewed 15 women who all play college sports, who are all doing various things professionally, and the goal was for them to be able to learn about different careers, professions and leadership from women who weren't in their shoes. So that book was really powerful, because it wasn't just my story, it was others as well, which Michael Hingson ** 45:21 is great. When did that book come out? 2016 okay? And then, Angela Lewis ** 45:27 yes. And then there, there's a workbook that goes along with my first book, The Game Changing assist. And so that's, that's where we are right now with publications. But I'm working on some I'm working on another one right now, kind of the lessons I've learned over the past decade from from those books. Mm, Michael Hingson ** 45:48 so very excited about that. When will that one be out? Angela Lewis ** 45:50 It'll be out this summer. The release date isn't set yet, but it'll be this summer cool. Michael Hingson ** 45:58 And so you're to talk about all the lessons that you've learned and all the things that have happened and, oh, boy, I'll bet you'll have a lot to say about the pandemic in that one. Angela Lewis ** 46:06 Oh, the pandemic changed so much for all of us. Yes, that that book is called, tentatively named, um, keep bouncing forward. How to stay confident when life knocks you off your game? Mm, what I've learned the past decade life will knock you off your game, and things don't always turn out the way that you think they will, and you get thrown some curveballs. So try to help my younger self and some and other other people learn. You know, how do you keep going in the midst of challenging times? Yeah, well, Michael Hingson ** 46:41 there, there are a lot of times that we get thrown curveballs, and we didn't have any control over the curve balls coming necessarily, but it's like anything else. How do we deal with them? And that's what's really important. Do we do we analyze them? Do we find out whether it's a really valuable curveball that we can still hit out of the park if we're going to use another sports analogy, or or what, but we we do need to recognize that things happen, and it's always going to be a question of how we deal with it, Angela Lewis ** 47:14 always, and it's the only thing we can control. We can't control other people. We can't control the overall situation that we can't control the weather. I mean, there's so many things that we just must most that we can't control. So navigating that and understanding that you still have a choice of a response in the midst of is the overall theme, if we can learn. It's really three parts. It's about learning in the midst of the challenge growing, which comes out of the learning of new things and being stretched and then giving. How do we give to others after we've gone through and and have gained wisdom from it? Michael Hingson ** 47:58 Well, yeah, one of the things I've said ever since September 11, basically, is that we need to not worry about the things that we can't control. We had no control over September 11 happening, and I've never seen evidence to prove to me that that we could have figured it out, even if all the various departments in the United States government were cooperating with each other. I think that the reality is that the lesson we should learn about teamwork is that a team of 19 terrorists kept their mouth shut and made happen what we all experienced. So we didn't have control over that, but we absolutely have control over how we respond to it and how we deal with it internally, for us, Angela Lewis ** 48:40 yes, 100% I mean, that was definitely, I mean, forever memorable and very tragic, and that's all we that's all we can control. And the environments that we're around. Who do we listen to in the most difficult times? How do we get back centered when we go through those difficult situations and continue to move forward, because we can't stop. I think, you know, Michael, when difficult things happen, oftentimes we want to, like, shut it all down, but you just can't stop forever. Have to keep going Michael Hingson ** 49:12 well, and a corollary to that is that we need to always keep learning. I think the people, I think you mentioned it earlier, who say, Well, I already know all this. I don't need to learn anymore. They're the they're the scariest of all, because those are the people that are going to always be left by the wayside. Angela Lewis ** 49:30 And given this rate of change of technology and the rate of change of things, learning has to be our top priority, because things are always changing. You don't want to be left behind. What do you think of Michael Hingson ** 49:45 the the the things that we keep hearing in in schools with the advent of AI and chat GPT, the whole issue of students using chat GPT to write their papers and so on, and. What a bad thing that is. As Angela Lewis ** 50:01 a non parent, I always preface this with anything that has to do with schools and kids. Always say, as a non parent, as an auntie, well, in the business where we use chat GPT all the time, we use it as a tool, yep. And so I think if we don't allow kids to use the tools, then they're going to be left behind. But we can teach them how to use tools wisely and how to fact check to make sure that what they're saying is that the tools are used in their voice and and used in a way that helps them become better at whatever they're doing. But we can't not use it. So I don't have the exact answer, but I think not using it is dangerous as well. Can be dangerous as well. Well, we've talked about this is not, yeah, go ahead. No, I was just going to say it's not going anywhere. Michael Hingson ** 50:57 We've talked about fear of public speaking and so on. One of the things that I've advocated ever since I first learned about chat GPT and how teachers are complaining that too many students are just letting chat GPT write their papers. My position is, let them let chat GPT do it. The teachers need to adapt and that, I don't mean that in a cold hearted way, but the best thing to do is you can really find out how well students have learned the material or not by if you assign a paper and everybody writes a paper and then turns it in, then take a class period and let everyone have one minute, or a minute and a half to come up and defend their paper, turn the paper in, and defend and then defend the paper, because you're going to see very quickly who just let some system write their paper, or who maybe use the system, but really still wrote the paper themselves and really understands the concepts, and that's what it's really about. And I know that I've seen that even much earlier than chat GPT, I had a physics professor who was in charge of developing the PhD qualifying exam for classical mechanics one year for those people who wanted to become and get get PhDs in physics, and more people failed his exam than anyone else had ever experienced. And the powers that be called him in and were chastising him, and he said, Wait a minute. You don't get it. He said, Look at this paper. This is the exam I give to all of my freshmen in classical mechanics. And here's the exam that we use for the PhD qualifying exam. The only difference between the two was that both had 16 questions that were conceptual, not mathematical in nature, but the PhD qualifying exam had four questions that were clearly solving mathematical equations, Lagrangian dynamics and so on. And the thing that people messed up on were not the four mathematical things, but all the concepts, because physics people spend so much time dealing with the math rather than focusing on the concepts that people never really got them. And the result was that people messed up on the concepts, although they got the math part his test was the same one that his freshman students got. It really kind of quieted them all down. Quieted all the powers down, because they realized, oh, maybe he's not the problem, which is so true. Angela Lewis ** 53:45 You know you're Oh, nope, no, go ahead. No, I think you're right. I think educators will have to find a way to to ensure that students are still learning while using the technology that exists, yeah, I think that Michael Hingson ** 54:07 it's a paradigm shift, and chat GPT is creating this paradigm shift, and now what we need to do is to recognize the value of of what it brings. I've written articles, and I use chat GPT when I write articles, but I will look at the ideas that it provides and it and it comes up with things I hadn't thought of, which is fine, and I will include them, but I'm still the one that ultimately writes the articles, and it needs to be that way. And I don't care how good chat GPT gets, it can be the most perfect thing, but it still isn't me, and it never will be, Angela Lewis ** 54:43 and that ties back into the storytelling. Chat GPT can't tell our stories of our lives. It can't create the experiences that we've had. It can't recreate our experiences. So even in using chat GPT or any any AI software to help write. And we still have to be able to speak authentically to our lived experience, and it can never replace that. It can never replace you. It can never replace our experiences and the impact those experiences can have for others. Michael Hingson ** 55:14 And that is so true. So for you, we're doing this podcast called unstoppable mindset. What does unstoppable mindset mean to you, and how do you bring it out and make it a part of everything that you do in every day and in your whole life? Angela Lewis ** 55:32 Unstoppable mindset, to me, means getting knocked down and being willing to get back up and get knocked down again, and being willing to get back up, and more importantly, believing that you can get back up. You're going to miss, to use the sports analogies, you're going to miss shots. You're going to not win every you're not going to win every game, and you're not going to play well every night, every day. Won't be perfect, but if you're willing to keep moving forward and keep pushing forward, then you still have an opportunity to one inspire others, but also to get to your goals, whatever they may be. Michael Hingson ** 56:08 And the reality is, the more of it you do, the better you'll become. And maybe it'll get to the point where you won't miss any shots and you'll just be perfect, and that's okay, too, as long as you recognize where it came from and why you've been able to attain so well. Angela Lewis ** 56:26 Yes, yes. And sometimes, Michael, you know, our mindset, looking at others journeys, can help us as well. And it can. It's like, okay, if they can do it, I can do it if, if my parents can. You know, my mom grew up in Mississippi and literally picked cotton. I mean, my mom's 83 years old, and so to be able to see what she's gone through, and for her to have the mindset, to be able to push through and to continue to have faith, well, then I can too. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 56:57 and that's and that's as it should be. Angela Lewis ** 57:01 Yes, we can lean on those stories of mentors or others who've been through challenging situations and use that to crystallize an unstoppable mindset within us as well. Michael Hingson ** 57:13 And I think that's as good as it gets. And so with that, we've been doing this just about an hour. I think it's time to go off and let you go off. And I don't know whether you've had dinner yet or not, but I haven't, and I know dinner is going to be coming. But more important than that, we've been talking for a while. I don't want to bore people, but I want to thank you for being here, and I want to really tell you how much I appreciate all the the words of wisdom that you have given us and all the things that you've had to say, it's been wonderful, and I want to thank all of you for being with us today. I hope that you've come away with a better commitment to a better understanding of and a better resolve to be more unstoppable than you thought you were. So thank you for all of you for being here and being a part of this. Love to hear what you think, Angela, if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Angela Lewis ** 58:09 If you want to reach out to me, you can find me on LinkedIn, Angela R Lewis on LinkedIn, or you can reach out to me on Instagram. The Angela R Lewis, Michael, thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation. Michael Hingson ** 58:23 Well, it's been fun, and I again, want to thank you all, and I'd love to hear from you. Please feel free to email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com that's Michael M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael hingson is m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n, so Thanks all for for being here. Please give us a five star rating wherever you're watching or hearing our podcast today. We love it. If you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on our podcast, Angela for you as well. Please introduce us. We're always looking for people to come on and tell their stories, because I think everyone has a story, and my goal is to give people the opportunity to tell them and inspire the rest of us. So please come on and don't hesitate any of you to introduce us to people who we ought to have on. So again. Angela, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you, Michael. You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Episode 353 – Unstoppable Comedian with Greg Schwem

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 15, 2025 69:38

You are in for a real treat on this episode. My guest this time is Greg Schwem. Greg is a corporate comedian. What is a corporate comedian? You probably can imagine that his work has to do with corporations, and you would be right. Greg will explain much better than I can. Mr. Schwem began his career as a TV journalist but eventually decided to take up what he really wanted to do, be a comedian. The story of how he evolved is quite fascinating by any standard. Greg has done comedy professionally since 1989. He speaks today mostly to corporate audiences. He will tell us how he does his work. It is quite interesting to hear how he has learned to relate to his audiences. As you will discover as Greg and I talk, we often work in the same way to learn about our audiences and thus how we get to relate to them. Greg has written three books. His latest one is entitled “Turning Gut Punches into Punch Lines: A Comedian's Journey Through Cancer, Divorce and Other Hilarious Stuff”. As Greg says, “Don't worry, it's not one of those whiny, ‘woe is me,' self- serving books. Instead, it's a hilarious account of me living the words I've been preaching to my audiences: You can always find humor in every situation, even the tough ones. Greg offers many interesting observations as he discusses his career and how he works. I think we all can find significant lessons we can use from his remarks. About the Guest: Hi! I'm Greg Schwem. a Chicago-based business humor speaker and MC who HuffPost calls “Your boss's favorite comedian.” I've traveled the world providing clean, customized laughs to clients such as Microsoft, IBM, McDonald's and even the CIA. I also write the bi-weekly Humor Hotel column for the Chicago Tribune syndicate. I believe every corporate event needs humor. As I often tell clients, “When times are good, people want to laugh. When times are bad, people need to laugh.” One Fortune 500 client summed things up perfectly, saying “You were fantastic and just what everybody needed during these times.” In September 2024 I released my third and most personal book, Turning Gut Punches into Punch Lines: A Comedian's Journey Through Cancer, Divorce and Other Hilarious Stuff. Don't worry, it's not one of those whiny, “woe is me,” self-serving books. Instead, it's a hilarious account of me living the words I've been preaching to my audiences: You can always find humor in every situation, even the tough ones. You can pick up a copy at Amazon or select book stores. Ways to connect with Greg: Website: www.gregschwem.com YouTube: www.youtube.com/gregschwem LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/gregschwem Instagram: www.instagram.com/gregschwem X: www.x.com/gregschwem About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:16 Hi everyone, and welcome to unstoppable mindset. Today we are going to definitely have some fun. I'll tell you about our guests in a moment, but first, I want to tell you about me. That'll take an hour or so. I am Michael Hingson, your host, and you're listening to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And I don't know, we may get inclusion or diversity into this, but our guest is Greg Schwem. Greg used to be a TV reporter, now he's a comedian, not sure which is funnier, but given some of the reporters I've seen on TV, they really should go into tonight club business. But anyway, Greg, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. I really appreciate you being here and taking the time Greg Schwem ** 02:04 Well, Michael, it is an honor to be included on your show. I'm really looking forward to the next hour of conversation. I Speaker 1 ** 02:10 told Greg a little while ago, one of my major life ambitions that I never got to do was to go to a Don Rickles concert and sit in the front row so that hopefully he would pick on me, so that I could say, Yeah, I saw you once on TV, and I haven't been able to see since. What do you think of that? You hockey puck, but I never got to do it. So very disappointed. But everybody has bucket list moments, everybody has, but they don't get around to I'm sorry. Yeah, I know. Well, the other one is, I love to pick on Mike Wallace. I did a radio show for six years opposite him in 60 minutes, and I always love to say that Wallace really had criminal tendencies, because he started out being an announcer in radio and he announced things like The Green Hornet and the Sky King and other shows where they had a lot of criminals. So I just figured he had to be associated with criminals somewhere in his life. Of course, everybody picked on him, and he had broad shoulders. And I again, I regret I never got to to meet him, which is sort of disappointing. But I did get to meet Peter Falk. That was kind of fun. Greg Schwem ** 03:15 Mike Wallace to Peter Falk. Nice transition there. I know. Michael Hingson ** 03:21 Well I am really glad you're with us. So why don't we start? We'll start with the serious part. Why don't you tell us, kind of about the early Greg schwim and growing up and all that sort of stuff, just to set the stage, as it were, Greg Schwem ** 03:34 how far back you want to go? You want to go back to Little League, or you want to Speaker 1 ** 03:37 just, oh, start at the beginning, a long time ago, right? I was a Greg Schwem ** 03:41 very strange child. No, I you. You obviously introduced me as a as a comedian, and that is my full time job. And you also said that I was a former journalist, and that is my professional career. Yes, I went from, as I always like to say, I went from depressing people all day long, to making them laugh. And that's, that's kind of what I did. I always did want to be I majored in Journalism at Northwestern University, good journalism school. Originally, I always wanted to be a television reporter. That was as a professional career I was, I dabbled in comedy. Started when I was 16. That is the first time I ever got on stage at my school, my high school, and then at a comedy club. I was there one of the first comedy clubs in Chicago, a place called the comedy cottage. It was in the suburb of beautiful, beautiful suburb of Rosemont, Illinois, and they were one of the very, very first full time comedy clubs in the nation. And as a 16 year old kid, I actually got on stage and did five minutes here and five minutes there. And thought I was, I was hot stuff, but I never, ever thought I would do it for a living. I thought comedy would always be just a hobby. And I. Especially when I went to college, and I thought, okay, Northwestern is pretty good school, pretty expensive school. I should actually use my degree. And I did. I moved down to Florida, wrote for a newspaper called The Palm Beach post, which, don't let that title fool you. It's Palm Beach was a very small segment of of the area that it was, that it served, but I did comedy on the side, and just because I moved down there, I didn't know anybody, so I hung out at comedy clubs just to have something to do. And little by little, comedy in the late 80s, it exploded. Exploded. There were suddenly clubs popping up everywhere, and you were starting to get to know guys that were doing these clubs and were starting to get recognition for just being comedians. And one of them opened up a very, very good Club opened up about 10 minutes from my apartment in West Palm Beach, and I hung out there and started to get more stage time, and eventually started to realize at the same time that I was getting better as a comedian, I was becoming more disillusioned as a journalist in terms of what my bosses wanted me to report on and the tone they wanted me to use. And I just decided that I would I would just never be able to live with myself if I didn't try it, if I didn't take the the plunge into comedy, and that's what I did in 1989 and I've been doing it ever since. And my career has gone in multiple directions, as I think it needs to. If you're going to be in show business and sustain a career in show business, you have to wear a lot of different hats, which I feel like I've done. Michael Hingson ** 06:40 So tell me more about that. What does that mean exactly? Greg Schwem ** 06:43 Well, I mean, I started out as a what you would pretty much if somebody said, If you heard somebody say, I'm a comedian, they would envision some guy that just went to comedy clubs all the time, and that's what I did. I was just a guy that traveled by car all over the Midwest and the Southeast primarily, and did comedy clubs, but I quickly realized that was kind of a going nowhere way to attack it, to do comedy unless you were incredibly lucky, because there were so many guys doing it and so many clubs, and I just didn't see a future in it, and I felt like I had to separate myself from the pack a little bit. And I was living in Chicago, which is where I'm from, and still, still exist. Still reside in Chicago, and I started to get involved with a company that did live trade show presentations. So if you've ever been on a trade show floor and you see people, they're mostly actors and actresses that wear a headset and deliver a spiel, a pitch, like every, every twice an hour, about some company, some new product, and so forth. And I did that, and I started to write material about what I was seeing on trade show floors and putting it into my stand up act, stuff about business, stuff about technology, because I was Hawking a lot of new computers and things like that. This was the mid 90s when technology was exploding, and I started to put this into my stand up act. And then I'd have people come up to me afterwards and say, hey, you know those jokes you did about computers and tech support, if you could come down to our office, you know, we're having a golf tournament, we're having a Christmas party, we would love to hear that material. And little by little, I started transitioning my act into doing shows for the corporate market. I hooked up with a corporate agent, or the corporate agent heard about me, and started to open a lot of doors for me in terms of working for very large corporations, and that's pretty much what I've been doing. I stopped working clubs, and I transitioned, instead of being a comedian, I became a corporate humor speaker. And that's what I do, primarily to this day, is to speak at business conferences. Just kind of get people to loosen up, get them to laugh about what they do all day without without making it sound like I'm belittling what they do. And also when I'm not doing that, I work about eight to 10 weeks a year on cruise ships, performing for cruise audiences. So that's a nice getaway. Speaker 1 ** 09:18 It's interesting since I mentioned Don Rickles earlier, years ago, I saw an interview that he did with Donahue, and one of the things that Don Rickles said, and after he said it, I thought about it. He said, I really don't want to pick on anyone who's going to be offended by me picking on them. He said, I try to watch really carefully, so that if it looks like somebody's getting offended, I'll leave them alone, because that's not what this is all about. It isn't about abusing people. It's about trying to get people to have fun, and if somebody's offended, I don't want to to pick on them, and I've heard a number of albums and other things with him and just. Noticed that that was really true. He wouldn't pick on someone unless they could take it and had a lot of fun with it. And I thought that was absolutely interesting, because that certainly wasn't, of course, the rep that he had and no, but it was Greg Schwem ** 10:16 true. It is, and it doesn't take long to see as a as a comedian, when you're looking at an audience member and you're talking to them, it, you can tell very quickly, Are they enjoying this? Are they enjoying being the center of attention? A lot of people are, or are they uncomfortable with it? Now, I don't know that going in. I mean, I you know, of course. And again, that's a very small portion of my show is to talk to the audience, but it is something particularly today. I think audiences want to be more involved. I think they enjoy you talk you. Some of these, the new comedians in their 20s and 30s and so forth. Them, some of them are doing nothing, but what they call crowd work. So they're just doing 45 minutes of talking to the audience, which can be good and can be rough too, because you're working without a net. But I'm happy to give an audience a little bit of that. But I also have a lot of stuff that I want to say too. I mean, I work very hard coming up with material and and refining it, and I want to talk about what's going on in my life, too. So I don't want the audience to be the entire show, right? Speaker 1 ** 11:26 And and they shouldn't be, because it isn't about that. But at the same time, it is nice to involve them. I find that as a keynote and public speaker, I find that true as well, though, is that audiences do like to be involved. And I do some things right at the outset of most talks to involve people, and also in involving them. I want to get them to last so that I start to draw them in, because later, when I tell the September 11 story, which isn't really a humorous thing. Directly, Greg Schwem ** 12:04 i know i Good luck. I'm spinning 911 to make it I don't think I've ever heard anybody say, by the way, I was trapped in a building. Stick with me. It's kind of cute. It's got a funny ending. And Speaker 1 ** 12:20 that's right, and it is hard I can, I can say humorous things along the way in telling the story, but, sure, right, but, but clearly it's not a story that, in of itself, is humorous. But what I realized over the years, and it's really dawned on me in the last four or five years is we now have a whole generation of people who have absolutely no memory of September 11 because they were children or they weren't even born yet. And I believe that my job is to not only talk about it, but literally to draw them into the building and have them walk down the stairs with me, and I have to be descriptive in a very positive way, so that they really are part of what's going on. And the reality is that I do hear people or people come up and say, we were with you when you were going down the stairs. And I think that's my job, because the reality is that we've got to get people to understand there are lessons to be learned from September 11, right? And the only real way to do that is to attract the audience and bring them in. And I think probably mostly, I'm in a better position to do that than most people, because I'm kind of a curious soul, being blind and all that, but it allows me to to draw them in and and it's fun to do that, actually. And I, and Greg Schwem ** 13:52 I gotta believe, I mean, obviously I wasn't there, Michael, but I gotta believe there were moments of humor in people, a bunch of people going down the stairs. Sure, me, you put people get it's like, it's like when a bunch of people are in an elevator together, you know, I mean, there's I, when I look around and I try to find something humorous in a crowded and it's probably the same thing now, obviously it, you know, you got out in time. But I and, you know, don't that's the hotel phone, which I just hung up so but I think that I can totally see where you're going from, where, if you're if you're talking to people who have no recollection of this, have no memory where you're basically educating them on the whole event. I think you then you have the opportunity to tell the story in whatever way you see fit. And I think that however you choose to do it is there's no wrong way to do it, I guess is what I'm trying to get at. Speaker 1 ** 14:55 Well, yeah, I think the wrong way is to be two. Graphic and morbid and morbid, but one of the things that I talk about, for example, is that a colleague of mine who was with me, David Frank, at about the 50th floor, suddenly said, Mike, we're going to die. We're not going to make it out of here. And as as I tell the audience, typically, I as as you heard my introduction at the beginning, I have a secondary teaching credential. And one of the things that you probably don't know about teachers is that there's a secret course that every teacher takes called Voice 101, how to yell at students and and so what I tell people is that when David said that, I just said in my best teacher voice, stop it, David, if Roselle and I can go down these stairs, so can you. And he told me later that that brought him out of his funk, and he ended up walking a floor below me and shouting up to me everything he saw. And it was just mainly, everything is clear, like I'm on floor 48 he's on 47/47 floor. Everything is good here, and what I have done for the past several years in telling that part of the story is to say David, in reality, probably did more to keep people calm and focused as we went down the stairs than anyone else, because anyone within the sound of his voice heard someone who was focused and sounded okay. You know, hey, I'm on the 44th floor. This is where the Port Authority cafeteria is not stopping. And it it helps people understand that we all had to do what we could to keep everyone from not panicking. And it almost happened a few times that people did, but we worked at it. But the i The idea is that it helps draw people in, and I think that's so important to do for my particular story is to draw them in and have them walk down the stairs with me, which is what I do, absolutely, yeah, yeah. Now I'm curious about something that keeps coming up. I hear it every so often, public speaker, Speaker experts and people who are supposedly the great gurus of public speaking say you shouldn't really start out with a joke. And I've heard that so often, and I'm going give me a break. Well, I think, I think it depends, yeah, I think Greg Schwem ** 17:33 there's two schools of thought to that. I think if you're going to start out with a joke, it better be a really good one, or something that you either has been battle tested, because if it doesn't work now, you, you know, if you're hoping for a big laugh, now you're saying, Well, you're a comedian, what do you do? You know, I mean, I, I even, I just sort of work my way into it a little bit. Yeah, and I'm a comedian, so, and, you know, it's funny, Michael, I will get, I will get. I've had CEOs before say to me, Hey, you know, I've got to give this presentation next week. Give me a joke I can tell to everybody. And I always decline. I always it's like, I don't need that kind of pressure. And it's like, I can, I can, I can tell you a funny joke, but, Michael Hingson ** 18:22 but you telling the Greg Schwem ** 18:23 work? Yeah, deliver it. You know, I can't deliver it for you. Yeah? And I think that's what I also, you know, on that note, I've never been a big fan of Stand Up Comedy classes, and you see them all popping up all over the place. Now, a lot of comedy clubs will have them, and usually the you take the class, and the carrot at the end is you get to do five minutes at a comedy club right now, if that is your goal, if you're somebody who always like, Gosh, I wonder what it would like be like to stand up on stage and and be a comedian for five minutes. That's something I really like to try. By all means, take the class, all right. But if you think that you're going to take this class and you're going to emerge a much funnier person, like all of a sudden you you weren't funny, but now you are, don't take the class, yeah? And I think, sadly, I think that a lot of people sign up for these classes thinking the latter, thinking that they will all of a sudden become, you know, a comedian. And it doesn't work that way. I'm sorry you cannot teach unfunny people to be funny. Yeah, some of us have the gift of it, and some of us don't. Some of us are really good with our hands, and just know how to build stuff and how to look at things and say, I can do that. And some of us, myself included, definitely do not. You know, I think you can teach people to be more comfortable, more comfortable in front of an audience and. Correct. I think that is definitely a teachable thing, but I don't think that you can teach people to be funnier Speaker 1 ** 20:10 and funnier, and I agree with that. I tend to be amazed when I keep hearing that one of the top fears in our world is getting up in front of an audience and talking with them, because people really don't understand that audiences, whatever you're doing, want you to succeed, and they're not against you, but we have just conditioned ourselves collectively that speaking is something to be afraid of? Greg Schwem ** 20:41 Yes, I think, though it's, I'm sure, that fear, though, of getting up in front of people has only probably been exacerbated and been made more intense because now everybody in the audience has a cell phone and to and to be looking out at people and to see them on their phones. Yeah, you're and yet, you prepped all day long. You've been nervous. You've been you probably didn't sleep the night before. If you're one of these people who are afraid of speaking in public, yeah, and then to see people on their phones. You know, it used to bother me. It doesn't anymore, because it's just the society we live in. I just, I wish, I wish people could put their phones down and just enjoy laughing for 45 minutes. But unfortunately, our society can't do that anymore, so I just hope that I can get most of them to stop looking at it. Speaker 1 ** 21:32 I don't make any comments about it at the beginning, but I have, on a number of occasions, been delivering a speech, and I hear a cell phone ring, and I'll stop and go, Hello. And I don't know for sure what the person with the cell phone does, but by the same token, you know they really shouldn't be on their phone and and it works out, okay, nobody's ever complained about it. And when I just say hello, or I'll go Hello, you don't say, you know, and things like that, but, but I don't, I don't prolong it. I'll just go back to what I was talking about. But I remember, when I lived in New Jersey, Sandy Duncan was Peter Pan in New York. One night she was flying over the audience, and there was somebody on his cell phone, and she happened to be going near him, and she just kicked the phone out of his hand. And I think that's one of the things that started Broadway in saying, if you have a cell phone, turn it off. And those are the announcements that you hear at the beginning of any Broadway performance today. Greg Schwem ** 22:39 Unfortunately, people don't abide by that. I know you're still hearing cell phones go off, yeah, you know, in Broadway productions at the opera or wherever, so people just can't and there you go. There that just shows you're fighting a losing battle. Speaker 1 ** 22:53 Yeah, it's just one of those things, and you got to cope with it. Greg Schwem ** 22:58 What on that note, though, there was, I will say, if I can interrupt real quick, there was one show I did where nobody had their phone. It was a few years ago. I spoke at the CIA. I spoke for some employees of the CIA. And this might, this might freak people out, because you think, how is it that America's covert intelligence agency, you think they would be on their phones all the time. No, if you work there, you cannot have your phone on you. And so I had an audience of about 300 people who I had their total attention because there was no other way to they had no choice but to listen to me, and it was wonderful. It was just a great show, and I it was just so refreshing. Yeah, Speaker 1 ** 23:52 and mostly I don't hear cell phones, but they do come up from time to time. And if they do, then you know it happens. Now my one of my favorite stories is I once spoke in Maryland at the Department of Defense, which anybody who knows anything knows that's the National Security Agency, but they call it the Department of Defense, as if we don't know. And my favorite story is that I had, at the time, a micro cassette recorder, and it died that morning before I traveled to Fort Meade, and I forgot to just throw it away, and it was in my briefcase. So I got to the fort, they searched, apparently, didn't find it, but on the way out, someone found it. They had to get a bird Colonel to come to decide what to do with it. I said, throw it away. And they said, No, we can't do that. It's yours. And they they decided it didn't work, and they let me take it and I threw it away. But it was so, so funny to to be at the fort and see everybody running around crazy. See, what do we do with this micro cassette recorder? This guy's been here for an hour. Yeah. So it's it. You know, all sorts of things happen. What do you think about you know, there's a lot of discussion about comedians who use a lot of foul language in their shows, and then there are those who don't, and people seem to like the shock value of that. Greg Schwem ** 25:25 Yeah, I'm very old school in that. I guess my short answer is, No, I've never, ever been one of those comedians. Ever I do a clean show, I actually learned my lesson very early on. I think I think that I think comedians tend to swear because when they first start out, out of nerves, because I will tell you that profanity does get laughter. And I've always said, if you want to, if you want to experiment on that, have a comedian write a joke, and let's say he's got two shows that night. Let's say he's got an eight o'clock show and a 10 o'clock show. So let's say he does the joke in the eight o'clock and it's, you know, the cadence is bumper, bump up, bump up, bump up, punch line. Okay, now let's and let's see how that plays. Now let's now he does the 10 o'clock show and it's bumper, bump up, bump up F and Okay, yeah, I pretty much guarantee you the 10 o'clock show will get a bigger laugh. Okay? Because he's sort of, it's like the audience is programmed like, oh, okay, we're supposed to laugh at that now. And I think a lot of comedians think, Aha, I have just discovered how to be successful as a comedian. I will just insert the F word in front of every punch line, and you can kind of tell what comedians do that and what comedians I mean. I am fine with foul language, but have some jokes in there too. Don't make them. Don't make the foul word, the joke, the joke, right? And I can say another thing nobody has ever said to me, I cannot hire you because you're too clean. I've never gotten that. And all the years I've been doing this, and I know there's lots of comedians who who do work blue, who have said, you know, who have been turned down for that very reason. So I believe, if you're a comedian, the only way to get better is to work any place that will have you. Yeah, and you can't, so you might as well work clean so you can work any place that will have you, as opposed to being turned away. Speaker 1 ** 27:30 Well, and I, and I know what, what happened to him and all that, but at the same time, I grew up listening to Bill Cosby and the fact that he was always clean. And, yeah, I understand everything that happened, but you can't deny and you can't forget so many years of humor and all the things that that he brought to the world, and the joy he brought to the world in so many ways. Greg Schwem ** 27:57 Oh, yeah, no, I agree. I agree. And he Yeah, he worked everywhere. Jay Leno is another one. I mean, Jay Leno is kind of on the same wavelength as me, as far as don't let the profanity become the joke. You know, Eddie Murphy was, you know, was very foul. Richard Pryor, extremely foul. I but they also, prior, especially, had very intelligent material. I mean, you can tell and then if you want to insert your F bombs and so forth, that's fine, but at least show me that you're trying. At least show me that you came in with material in addition to the Speaker 1 ** 28:36 foul language. The only thing I really have to say about all that is it? Jay Leno should just stay away from cars, but that's another story. Greg Schwem ** 28:43 Oh, yeah, it's starting to Greg Schwem ** 28:47 look that way. Yeah, it Michael Hingson ** 28:49 was. It was fun for a while, Jay, but yeah, there's just two. It's like, Harrison Ford and plains. Yeah, same concept. At some point you're like, this isn't working out. Now I submit that living here in Victorville and just being out on the streets and being driven around and all that, I am firmly convinced, given the way most people drive here, that the bigoted DMV should let me have a license, because I am sure I can drive as well as most of the clowns around here. Yeah, so when they drive, I have no doubt. Oh, gosh. Well, you know, you switched from being a TV journalist and so on to to comedy. Was it a hard choice? Was it really difficult to do, or did it just seem like this is the time and this is the right thing to do. I was Greg Schwem ** 29:41 both, you know, it was hard, because I really did enjoy my job and I liked, I liked being a TV news reporter. I liked, I liked a job that was different every day once you got in there, because you didn't know what they were going to send you out to do. Yes, you had. To get up and go to work every day and so forth. So there's a little bit of, you know, there's a little bit of the mundane, just like there is in any job, but once you were there, I liked, just never known what the day would bring, right? And and I, I think if I'd stayed with it, I think I think I could have gone pretty far, particularly now, because the now it's more people on TV are becoming more entertainers news people are becoming, yeah, they are. A lot of would be, want to be comedians and so forth. And I don't particularly think that's appropriate, but I agree. But so it was hard to leave, but it gets back to what I said earlier. At some point, you got to say, I was seeing comedians making money, and I was thinking, gosh, you know, if they're making money at this I I'm not hilarious, but I know I'm funnier than that guy. Yeah, I'm funnier than her, so why not? And I was young, and I was single, and I thought, if I if I don't try it now, I never will. And, and I'll bet there's just some hilarious people out there, yeah, who who didn't ever, who just were afraid Michael Hingson ** 31:14 to take that chance, and they wouldn't take the leap, yeah, Greg Schwem ** 31:16 right. And now they're probably kicking themselves, and I'm sure maybe they're very successful at what they do, but they're always going to say, what if, if I only done this? I don't ever, I don't, ever, I never, ever wanted to say that. Yeah, Speaker 1 ** 31:31 well, and there's, there's something to be said for being brave and stepping out and doing something that you don't expect, or that you didn't expect, or that you weren't sure how it was going to go, but if you don't try, then you're never going to know just how, how much you could really accomplish and how much you can really do. And I think that the creative people, whatever they're being creative about, are the people who do step out and are willing to take a chance. Greg Schwem ** 31:59 Yeah, yeah. And I told my kids that too. You know, it's just like, if it's something that you're passionate about, do it. Just try it. If it doesn't work out, then at least you can say I tried Speaker 1 ** 32:09 it and and if it doesn't work out, then you can decide, what do I need to do to figure out why it didn't work out, or is it just not me? I want Greg Schwem ** 32:18 to keep going? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 ** 32:21 So what is the difference between being a nightclub comedian and a corporate comedian? Because they are somewhat different. I think I know the answer. But what would you say that the differences between them? I think Greg Schwem ** 32:33 the biggest thing is the audiences. I think when you when you are a nightclub comedian, you are working in front of people who are there to be entertained. Yeah, they, they paid money for that. That's what they're expecting. They, they, at some point during the day, they said, Hey, let's, let's go laugh tonight. That's what we really want to do when you're working in front of a corporate audiences. That's not necessarily the case. They are there. I primarily do business conferences and, you know, association meetings and so forth. And I'm just one cog in the wheel of a whole day's worth of meetings are, for the most part, very dry and boring, maybe certainly necessary educational. They're learning how to do their job better or something. And then you have a guy like me come in, and people aren't always ready to laugh, yeah, despite the fact that they probably need to, but they just they're not always in that mindset. And also the time of day. I mean, I do a lot of shows at nine in the morning. I do shows after lunch, right before lunch. I actually do very few shows in the evening, believe it or not. And so then you you have to, you kind of have to, in the while you're doing your act or your presentation or your speech, as I call it, you kind of have to let them know that it is okay. What you're doing is okay, and they should be okay with laughing. They shouldn't be looking around the whole time wondering if other people are laughing. You know, can I, can I? Can I tell you a quick story about how I drive that point home. Why not? Yeah, it's, I'll condense it into like five minutes. I mentioned that I worked on that I work on cruise ships occasionally, and I one night I was performing, and it was the first night of the cruise. And if anybody's ever been on a cruise, note, the first night, first night entertainers don't like the first night because people are tired. You know, they're they're a little edgy because they've been traveling all day. They're they're confused because they're not really sure where they're going on a ship. And the ones that have got it figured out usually over serve themselves because they're on vacation. So you put all that, so I'm doing my show on the first. Night, and it's going very well. And about five, six minutes in, I do a joke. Everybody laughs. Everybody shuts up. And from the back of the room in total darkness, I hear hat just like that. And I'm like, All right, you know, probably over served. So the rule of comedy is that everybody gets like. I was like, I'll let it go once, yeah. So I just kind of looked off in that direction, didn't say anything. Kept going with my active going with my act. About 10 minutes later, same thing happens. I tell a joke. Everybody laughs. Everybody shuts up. Hat now I'm like, Okay, I have got to, I've got to address the elephant in the room. So I think I just made some comment, like, you know, I didn't know Roseanne Barr was on this cruise, you know, because that was like the sound of the Yeah. Okay, everybody laugh. Nothing happened about five minutes later. It happens a third time. And now I'm just like, this is gonna stop. I'm going to put a stop to this. And I just fired off. I can't remember, like, three just like, hey man, you know you're you're just a little behind everybody else in this show and probably in life too, that, you know, things like that, and it never happened again. So I'm like, okay, mission accomplished on my part. Comedians love it when we can shut up somebody like that. Anyway. Show's over, I am out doing a meet and greet. Some guy comes up to me and he goes, hey, hey, you know that kid you were making fun of is mentally handicapped. And now, of course, I don't know this, but out of the corner of my eye, I see from the other exit a man pushing a son, his son in a wheelchair out of the showroom. And I'm just like, Oh, what have I done? And yeah. And of course, when you're on a cruise, you're you're on a cruise. When you're a cruise ship entertainer, you have to live with your audience. So I couldn't hide. I spent like the next three days, and it seemed like wherever I was, the man and his son in the wheelchair were nearby. And finally, on the fourth day, I think was, I was waiting for an elevator. Again, 3500 people on this ship, okay, I'm waiting for an elevator. The elevator door opens. Guess who are the only two people the elevator, the man and his son. And I can't really say I'll wait for the next one. So I get on, and I said to this the father, I said, I just want you to know I had no idea. You know, I'm so sorry. I can't see back there, this kind of thing. And the dad looks at me. He puts his hand up to stop me, and he points to me, and he goes, I thought you were hysterical. And it was, not only was it relief, but it kind of, it's sort of a lesson that if you think something is funny, you should laugh at it. Yeah. And I think sometimes in corporate America, my point in this. I think sometimes when you do these corporate shows, I think that audience members forget that. I think very busy looking around to see if their immediate boss thinks it's funny, and eventually everybody's looking at the CEO to see if they're like, you know, I think if you're doing it that way, if that's the way you're you're approaching humor. You're doing yourself a disservice, if right, stopping yourself from laughing at something that you think is funny. Speaker 1 ** 38:09 I do think that that all too often the problem with meetings is that we as a as a country, we in corporations, don't do meetings, right anyway, for example, early on, I heard someone at a convention of the National Federation of the Blind say he was the new executive director of the American Foundation for the Blind, and he said, I have instituted a policy, no Braille, no meetings. And what that was all about was to say, if you're going to have a meeting, you need to make sure that all the documentation is accessible to those who aren't going to read the print. I take it further and say you shouldn't be giving out documentation during the meeting. And you can use the excuse, well, I got to get the latest numbers and all that. And my point is, you shouldn't be giving out documentation at a meeting, because the meeting is for people to communicate and interact with each other. And if you're giving out papers and so on, what are people going to do? They're going to read that, and they're not going to listen to the speakers. They're not going to listen to the other people. And we do so many things like that, we've gotten into a habit of doing things that become so predictable, but also make meetings very boring, because who wants to look at the papers where you can be listening to people who have a lot more constructive and interesting things to say anyway? Greg Schwem ** 39:36 Yeah, yeah. I think, I think COVID definitely changed, some for the some for the better and some for the worse. I think that a lot of things that were done at meetings COVID and made us realize a lot of that stuff could be done virtually, that you didn't have to just have everybody sit and listen to people over and over and over again. Speaker 1 ** 39:58 But unless you're Donald Trump. Up. Yeah, that's another story. Greg Schwem ** 40:02 Yes, exactly another podcast episode. But, yeah, I do think also that. I think COVID changed audiences. I think, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about crowd work, right, and audiences wanting to be more involved. I think COVID precipitated that, because, if you think about it, Michael, for two and a half years during COVID, our sole source of entertainment was our phone, right? Which meant that we were in charge of the entertainment experience. You don't like something, swipe left, scroll down, scroll, scroll, scroll, find something else. You know, that kind of thing. I'm not I'm not entertained in the next four or five seconds. So I'm going to do this. And I think when live entertainment returned, audiences kind of had to be retrained a little bit, where they had to learn to sit and listen and wait for the entertainment to come to them. And granted, it might not happen immediately. It might not happen in the first five seconds, but you have to just give give people like me a chance. It will come to you. It will happen, but it might not be on your timetable, Speaker 1 ** 41:13 right? Well, and I think that is all too true for me. I didn't find didn't find COVID to be a great inconvenience, because I don't look at the screen anyway, right? So in a sense, for me, COVID wasn't that much of a change, other than not being in an office or not being physically at a meeting, and so I was listening to the meeting on the computer, and that has its nuances. Like you don't necessarily get the same information about how everyone around you is reacting, but, but it didn't bother me, I think, nearly as much as it did everyone else who has to look at everyone. Of course, I have no problems picking on all those people as well, because what I point out is that that disabilities has to be redefined, because every one of you guys has your own disability. You're light dependent, and you don't do well when there's dark, when, when the dark shows up and and we now have an environment where Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb, and we've spent the last 147 years doing everything we can to make sure that light is pretty ubiquitous, but it doesn't change a thing when suddenly the power goes out and you don't have immediate access to light. So that's as much a disability as us light, independent people who don't Greg Schwem ** 42:36 care about that, right? Right? I hear, I agree, but it is but Speaker 1 ** 42:41 it is interesting and and it is also important that we all understand each other and are willing to tolerate the fact that there are differences in people, and we need to recognize that with whatever we're doing. 42:53 Yeah, I agree. Speaker 1 ** 42:57 What do you think about so today, we have obviously a really fractured environment and fractured country, and everyone's got their own opinions, and nobody wants to talk about anything, especially politics wise. How do you think that's all affecting comedy and what you get to do and what other people are doing? Greg Schwem ** 43:18 Well, I think Pete, I think there's, there's multiple answers to that question too. I think, I think it makes people nervous, wondering what the minute a comedian on stage brings up politics, the minute he starts talking about a politician, whether it's our president, whether it's somebody else, you can sense a tension in the room a little bit, and it's, it's, I mean, it's funny. I, one of my best friends in comedy, got to open for another comedian at Carnegie Hall a couple of years ago, and I went to see him, and I'm sitting way up in the top, and he is just crushing it. And then at one point he he brought up, he decided to do an impression of Mitch McConnell, which he does very well. However, the minute he said, Mitch McConnell, I you could just sense this is Carnegie freaking Hall, and after the show, you know, he and I always like to dissect each other's shows. That's what comedians do. And I just said to him, I go. Why did you decide to insert Mitch McConnell in there? And I, and I didn't say it like, you moron, that was stupid, yeah, but I was genuinely curious. And he just goes, well, I just really like doing that bit, and I like doing that voice and so forth, but, and it's not like the show crashed and burned afterwards. No, he did the joke, and then he got out of it, and he went on to other stuff, and it was fine, but I think that people are just so on their guard now, yeah, and, and that's why, you know, you know Jay Leno always said he was an equal opportunity offender. I think you will do better with politics if you really want. Insert politics into your act. I think he would be better making fun of both sides. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. And I think too often comedians now use the the stage as kind of a Bully, bully pulpit, like I have microphone and you don't. I am now going to give you my take on Donald Trump or the Democrats or whatever, and I've always said, talk about anything you want on stage, but just remember, you're at a comedy club. People came to laugh. So is there a joke in here? Yeah, or are you just ranting because you gotta be careful. You have to get this off your chest, and your way is right. It's, it's, you know, I hate to say it, but that's, that's why podcast, no offense, Michael, yours, is not like this. But I think one of the reasons podcasters have gotten so popular is a lot of people, just a lot of podcast hosts see a podcast is a chance to just rant about whatever's on their mind. And it's amazing to me how many podcast hosts that are hosted by comedians have a second guy have a sidekick to basically laugh and agree with whatever that person says. I think Joe Rogan is a classic example, and he's one of the most popular ones. But, and I don't quite understand that, because you know, if you're a comedian, you you made the choice to work solo, right? So why do you need somebody else with you? Speaker 1 ** 46:33 I'm I'm fairly close to Leno. My remark is a little bit different. I'm not so much an equal opportunity offender as I am an equal opportunity abuser. I'll pick on both sides if politics comes into it at all, and it's and it's fun, and I remember when George W Bush was leaving the White House, Letterman said, Now we're not going to have anybody to joke about anymore. And everyone loved it. But still, I recognize that in the world today, people don't want to hear anything else. Don't confuse me with the facts or any of that, and it's so unfortunate, but it is the way it is, and so it's wiser to stay away from a lot of that, unless you can really break through the barrier, Greg Schwem ** 47:21 I think so. And I also think that people, one thing you have to remember, I think, is when people come to a comedy show, they are coming to be entertained. Yeah, they are coming to kind of escape from the gloom and doom that unfortunately permeates our world right now. You know? I mean, I've always said that if you, if you walked up to a comedy club on a Saturday night, and let's say there were 50 people waiting outside, waiting to get in, and you asked all 50 of them, what do you hope happens tonight? Or or, Why are you here? All right, I think from all 50 you would get I would just like to laugh, yeah, I don't think one of them is going to say, you know, I really hope that my opinions on what's happening in the Middle East get challenged right now, but he's a comedian. No one is going to say that. No, no. It's like, I hope I get into it with the comedian on stage, because he thinks this way about a woman's right to choose, and I think the other way. And I really, really hope that he and I will get into an argument about to the middle of the Speaker 1 ** 48:37 show. Yeah, yeah. That's not why people come? Greg Schwem ** 48:40 No, it's not. And I, unfortunately, I think again, I think that there's a lot of comedians that don't understand that. Yeah, again, talk about whatever you want on stage, but just remember that your your surroundings, you if you build yourself as a comedian, 48:56 make it funny. Yeah, be funny. Speaker 1 ** 49:00 Well, and nowadays, especially for for you, for me and so on, we're we're growing older and and I think you point out audiences are getting younger. How do you deal with that? Greg Schwem ** 49:12 Well, what I try to do is I a couple of things. I try to talk as much as I can about topics that are relevant to a younger generation. Ai being one, I, one of the things I do in my my show is I say, oh, you know, I I really wasn't sure how to start off. And when you're confused these days, you you turn to answer your questions. You turn to chat GPT, and I've actually written, you know, said to chat GPT, you know, I'm doing a show tonight for a group of construction workers who work in the Midwest. It's a $350 million company, and it says, try to be very specific. Give me a funny opening line. And of course, chat GPT always comes up with some. Something kind of stupid, which I then relate to the audience, and they love that, you know, they love that concept. So I think there's, obviously, there's a lot of material that you can do on generational differences, but I, I will say I am very, very aware that my audience is, for the most part, younger than me now, unless I want to spend the rest of my career doing you know, over 55 communities, not that they're not great laughers, but I also think there's a real challenge in being older than your audience and still being able to make them laugh. But I think you have to remember, like you said, there's there's people now that don't remember 911 that have no concept of it, yeah, so don't be doing references from, say, the 1980s or the early 1990s and then come off stage and go, Man, nobody that didn't hit at all. No one, no one. They're stupid. They don't get it. Well, no, they, they, it sounds they don't get it. It's just that they weren't around. They weren't around, right? So that's on you. Speaker 1 ** 51:01 One of the things that you know people ask me is if I will do virtual events, and I'll do virtual events, but I also tell people, the reason I prefer to do in person events is that I can sense what the audience is doing, how they're reacting and what they feel. If I'm in a room speaking to people, and I don't have that same sense if I'm doing something virtually, agreed same way. Now for me, at the same time, I've been doing this now for 23 years, so I have a pretty good idea in general, how to interact with an audience, to draw them in, even in a virtual environment, but I still tend to be a little bit more careful about it, and it's just kind of the way it is, you know, and you and you learn to deal with it well for you, have you ever had writer's block, and how did you deal with it? Greg Schwem ** 51:57 Yes, I have had writer's block. I don't I can't think of a single comedian who's never had writer's block, and if they say they haven't, I think they're lying when I have writer's block, the best way for me to deal with this and just so you know, I'm not the kind of comedian that can go that can sit down and write jokes. I can write stories. I've written three books, but I can't sit down and just be funny for an hour all by myself. I need interaction. I need communication. And I think when I have writer's block, I tend to go out and try and meet strangers and can engage them in conversation and find out what's going on with them. I mean, you mentioned about dealing with the younger audience. I am a big believer right now in talking to people who are half my age. I like doing that in social settings, because I just, I'm curious. I'm curious as to how they think. I'm curious as to, you know, how they spend money, how they save money, how what their hopes and dreams are for the future, what that kind of thing, and that's the kind of stuff that then I'll take back and try and write material about. And I think that, I think it's fun for me, and it's really fun to meet somebody who I'll give you a great example just last night. Last night, I was I there's a there's a bar that I have that's about 10 a stone's throw from my condo, and I love to stop in there and and every now and then, sometimes I'll sit there and I won't meet anybody, and sometimes different. So there was a guy, I'd say he's probably in his early 30s, sitting too over, and he was reading, which I find intriguing, that people come to a bar and read, yeah, people do it, I mean. And I just said to him, I go, and he was getting ready to pay his bill, and I just said, if you don't mind me asking, What are you reading? And he's like, Oh, it's by Ezra Klein. And I go, you know, I've listened to Ezra Klein before. And he goes, Yeah, you know? He says, I'm a big fan. And debt to debt to dad. Next thing, you know, we're just, we're just riffing back and forth. And I ended up staying. He put it this way, Michael, it took him a very long time to pay his bill because we had a conversation, and it was just such a pleasure to to people like that, and I think that, and it's a hard thing. It's a hard thing for me to do, because I think people are on their guard, a little bit like, why is this guy who's twice my age talking to me at a bar? That's that seems a little weird. And I would get that. I can see that. But as I mentioned in my latest book, I don't mean because I don't a whole chapter to this, and I I say in the book, I don't mean you any harm. I'm not trying to hit on you, or I'm not creepy old guy at the bar. I am genuinely interested in your story. And. In your life, and and I just, I want to be the least interesting guy in the room, and that's kind of how I go about my writing, too. Is just you, you drive the story. And even though I'm the comedian, I'll just fill in the gaps and make them funny. Speaker 1 ** 55:15 Well, I know that I have often been invited to speak at places, and I wondered, What am I going to say to this particular audience? How am I going to deal with them? They're they're different than what I'm used to. What I found, I guess you could call that writer's block, but what I found is, if I can go early and interact with them, even if I'm the very first speaker, if I can interact with them beforehand, or if there are other people speaking before me, invariably, I will hear things that will allow me to be able to move on and give a relevant presentation specifically to that group, which is what it's really all about. And so I'm with you, and I appreciate it, and it's good to get to the point where you don't worry about the block, but rather you look at ways to move forward and interact with people and make it fun, right, Greg Schwem ** 56:13 right? And I do think people, I think COVID, took that away from us a little bit, yeah, obviously, but I but, and I do think people missed that. I think that people, once you get them talking, are more inclined to not think that you're you have ulterior motives. I think people do enjoy putting their phones down a little bit, but it's, it's kind of a two way street when I, when I do meet people, if it's if it's only me asking the questions, eventually I'm going to get tired of that. Yeah, I think there's a, there has to be a reciprocity thing a little bit. And one thing I find is, is with the Gen Z's and maybe millennials. They're not, they're not as good at that as I think they could be. They're more they're they're happy to talk about themselves, but they're not really good at saying so what do you do for a living? Or what you know, tell me about you. And I mean, that's how you learn about other people. Yeah, Speaker 1 ** 57:19 tell me about your your latest book, Turning gut punches into punchlines. That's a interesting title, yeah, well, the more Greg Schwem ** 57:26 interesting is the subtitle. So it's turning gut punches into punch punch lines, A Comedian's journey through cancer, divorce and other hilarious stuff. Speaker 1 ** 57:35 No, like you haven't done anything in the world. Okay, right? So Greg Schwem ** 57:38 other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln. Yeah, exactly. See, now you get that reference. I don't know if I could use that on stage, but anyway, depend on your audience. But yeah, they're like, What's he talking Speaker 1 ** 57:50 who's Lincoln? And I've been to Ford theater too, so that's okay, yes, as have I. So it was much later than, than, well, than Lincoln, but that's okay. Greg Schwem ** 57:58 You're not that old, right? No. Well, okay, so as the title, as the title implies, I did have sort of a double, double gut punch, it just in the last two years. So I, I got divorced late in life, after 29 years of marriage. And while that was going on, I got a colon cancer diagnosis and and at this end, I was dealing with all this while also continuing work as a humor speaker, okay, as a comedian. And I just decided I got it. First of all, I got a very clean bill of health. I'm cancer free. I am finally divorced so and I, I started to think, I wonder if there's some humor in this. I I would, I would, you know, Michael, I've been on stage for like, 25 years telling people that, you know, you can find something funny to laugh at. You can find humor in any situation. It's kind of like what you're talking about all the people going down the stairs in the building in the world trade center. All right, if you look around enough, you know, maybe there's something funny, and I've been preaching that, but I never really had to live that until now. And I thought, you know, maybe there's something here. Maybe I can this is my chance now to embrace new experiences. It was kind of when I got divorced, when you've been married half your life and all of a sudden you get divorced, everything's new to you, yeah, you're, you're, you're living alone, you you're doing things that your spouse did, oh, so many years. And you're having to do those, and you're having to make new friends, yeah, and all of that, I think, is very humorous. So the more I saw a book in there that I started writing before the cancer diagnosis, and I thought was there enough here? Just like, okay, a guy at 60 years old gets divorced now what's going to happen to him? The diagnosis? Kind. Made it just added another wrinkle to the book, because now I have to deal with this, and I have to find another subject to to make light of a little bit. So the book is not a memoir, you know, I don't start it off. And, you know, when I was seven, you know, I played, you know, I was, I went to this school night. It's not that. It's more just about reinvention and just seeing that you can be happy later in life, even though you have to kind of rewrite your your story a little Speaker 1 ** 1:00:33 bit. And I would assume, and I would assume, you bring some of that into your ACT every so Greg Schwem ** 1:00:38 very much. So yeah, I created a whole new speech called Turning gut punches into punchlines. And I some of the stuff that I, that I did, but, you know, there's a chapter in the book about, I about gig work, actually three chapters I, you know, I went to work for Amazon during the Christmas holiday rush, just scanning packages. I wanted to see what that was like. I drove for Uber I which I did for a while. And to tell you the truth, I miss it. I ended up selling my car, but I miss it because of the what we just talked about. It was a great way to communicate with people. It was a great way to talk to people, find out about them, be the least interesting person in the car, anyway. And there's a chapter about dating and online dating, which I had not had to do in 30 years. There's a lot of humor in that. I went to therapy. I'd never gone to therapy before. I wrote a chapter about that. So I think people really respond to this book, because they I think they see a lot of themselves in it. You know, lots of people have been divorced. There's lots of cancer survivors out there, and there's lots of people who just suddenly have hit a speed bump in their life, and they're not really sure how to deal with it, right? And my way, this book is just about deal with it through laughter. And I'm the perfect example. Speaker 1 ** 1:01:56 I hear you, Oh, I I know, and I've been through the same sort of thing as you not a divorce, but my wife and I were married for 40 years, and she passed away in November of 2022 after 40 years of marriage. And as I tell people, as I tell people, I got to be really careful, because she's monitoring me from somewhere, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it, so I got to be a good kid, and I don't even chase the women so. But I also point out that none of them have been chasing me either, so I guess I just do what we got to do. But the reality is, I think there are always ways to find some sort of a connection with other people, and then, of course, that's what what you do. It's all about creating a connection, creating a relationship, even if it's only for a couple of hours or an hour or 45 minutes, but, but you do it, which is what it's all about? Greg Schwem ** 1:02:49 Yeah, exactly. And I think the funniest stuff is real life experience. Oh, absolutely, you know. And if people can see themselves in in what I've written, then I've done my job as a writer. Speaker 1 ** 1:03:03 So do you have any plans to retire? Greg Schwem ** 1:03:06 Never. I mean, good for you retire from what 1:03:09 I know right, making fun of people Greg Schwem ** 1:03:12 and making them laugh. I mean, I don't know what I would do with myself, and even if I there's always going to be I don't care how technology, technologically advanced our society gets. People will always want and need to laugh. Yeah, they're always going to want to do that. And if they're want, if they're wanting to do that, then I will find, I will find a way to get to them. And that's why I, as I said, That's why, like working on cruise ships has become, like a new, sort of a new avenue for me to make people laugh. And so, yeah, I don't I there's, there's no way. I don't know what else I would do with Speaker 1 ** 1:03:53 myself, well and from my perspective, as long as I can inspire people, yes, I can make people think a little bit and feel better about themselves. I'm going to do it right. And, and, and I do. And I wrote a book during COVID that was published last August called Live like a guide dog. And it's all about helping people learn to control fear. And I use lessons I learned from eight guide dogs and my wife service dog to do that. My wife was in a wheelchair her whole life. Great marriage. She read, I pushed worked out well, but, but the but the but the bottom line is that dogs can teach us so many lessons, and there's so much that we can learn from them. So I'm grateful that I had the opportunity to create this book and and get it out there. And I think that again, as long as I can continue to inspire people, I'm going to do it. Because Greg Schwem ** 1:04:47 why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't I exactly right? Yeah, yeah. So, Speaker 1 ** 1:04:51 I mean, I think if I, if I stopped, I think my wife would beat up on me, so I gotta be nice exactly. She's monitoring from somewhere

covid-19 christmas america tv ceo new york amazon live children ai donald trump chicago man voice new york times club turning speaker microsoft new jersey night illinois white house hospitals divorce defense maryland started middle east broadway comedians gen z mcdonald blind ceos act democrats midwest ambassadors cia thunder journalism joe rogan stitcher ibm ebooks bullies unstoppable correct bill cosby northwestern university george w bush southeast harrison ford eddie murphy northwestern peter pan dmv gpt aha stand up comedy david letterman rutgers university colonel graphic chicago tribune jay leno huffpost mitch mcconnell carnegie hall ic thomas edison palm beach little league american red cross west palm beach noticed richard pryor carnegie braille roseanne barr donahue american foundation hawking exploded national security agency national federation gre ezra klein don rickles green hornet rosemont port authority michael m peter falk mike wallace michael h victorville exxon mobile chief vision officer federal express scripps college fort meade sky king david frank michael hingson sandy duncan greg website accessibe american humane association greg schwem thunder dog hero dog awards

Episode 352 – Unstoppable Adventurer, Digital Marketer and Entrepreneur with Stuart Pollington

Entmoot - A Middle Earth SBG Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 11, 2025 66:40

Stuart Pollington was born in the United Kingdom and grew up there. After college he began working and along the way he decided he wanted to travel a bit. He worked in Las Vegas for six months and then had the opportunity to work for a year in Australia. He then ended up doing some work in Asia and fell in love with Thailand. For the past 20 years he has lived in Thailand where he helped start several entrepreneurial endeavors and he began two companies which are quite alive and well. My discussion with Stuart gave us the opportunity to explore his ideas of leadership and entrepreneurial progress including what makes a good entrepreneur. He says, for example, that anyone who wishes to grow and be successful should be willing to ask many questions and always be willing to learn. Stuart's insights are quite valuable and worth your time. I believe you will find most useful Stuart's thoughts and ideas. About the Guest: Stuart Pollington is a seasoned entrepreneur and digital strategist who has spent over two decades building businesses across the ASEAN region. Originally from the UK, Stuart relocated to Thailand more than 20 years ago and has since co-founded and led multiple ventures, including Easson Energy and Smart Digital Group. His experience spans digital marketing, AI, and sustainability, but at the heart of it all is his passion for building ideas from the ground up—and helping others do the same. Throughout his career, Stuart has worn many hats: Sales Director, CTO, Founder, Digital Marketer and growth consultant. He thrives in that messy, unpredictable space where innovation meets real-world execution, often working closely with new businesses to help them launch, grow, and adapt in challenging environments. From Bangkok boardrooms to late-night brainstorms, he's seen firsthand how persistence and curiosity can turn setbacks into springboards. Stuart's journey hasn't always been smooth—and that's exactly the point. He's a firm believer that failure is an essential part of the learning process. Whether it's a marketing campaign that flopped or a business idea that never got off the ground, each misstep has helped shape his approach and fueled his drive to keep moving forward. Ways to connect with Stuart: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuartpollington/ www.smart-digital.co.th www.smart-traffic.com.au www.evodigital.com.au https://easson.energy About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello, everyone. Once again, it is time for an episode of unstoppable mindset. And today we have a guest, Stuart pullington, who is in Thailand, so that is a little bit of a distance away, but be due to the magic of science and technology, we get to have a real, live, immediate conversation without any delay or anything like that, just because science is a beautiful thing. So Stuart is an entrepreneur. He's been very much involved in helping other people. He's formed companies, but he likes to help other entrepreneurs grow and do the same things that he has been doing. So I am really glad that he consented to be on unstoppable mindset. And Stuart, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And thank you for being here, Stuart Pollington ** 02:14 Ryan, thank you for the invitation, Michael, I'm looking forward to it. Michael Hingson ** 02:18 And Stuart is originally from the United Kingdom, and now for the past, what 20 years you've been in Thailand? Yes, over Stuart Pollington ** 02:27 a bit over 20 years now. So I think I worked out the other day. I'm 47 in a couple of weeks, and I've spent more than half of my life now over in Asia. Michael Hingson ** 02:39 So why do you like Thailand so much as opposed to being in England? Stuart Pollington ** 02:46 It's a good question. I mean, don't get me wrong, I do, I do like the UK. And I really, I really like where I came, where I'm from. I'm from the south coast, southeast, a place called Brighton. So, you know, pretty good, popular place in the UK because of where we're situated, by the, you know, on the on the sea, we get a lot of, you know, foreign tourists and students that come over, etc. I mean, Asia. Why? Why Asia? I mean, I originally went traveling. I did six months in America, actually, first in Las Vegas, which was a good experience, and then I did a bit of traveling in America, from the West Coast over to the East Coast. I did a year in Australia, like a working holiday. And then on my way back to the UK, I had a two week stop over in Thailand, and I went down to the beaches, really enjoyed kind of the culture and the way of life here, if you like. And ended up staying for a year the first time. And then after that year, went back to the UK for a little bit and decided that actually, no, I kind of liked the I liked the lifestyle, I liked the people, I liked the culture in Thailand, and decided that was where I wanted to kind of be, and made my way back Michael Hingson ** 04:13 there you are. Well, I can tell you, Las Vegas isn't anything like it was 20 years ago. It is. It is totally different. It's evolved. It's very expensive today compared to the way it used to be. You can't, for example, go into a hotel and get an inexpensive buffet or anything like that anymore. Drinks at the hum on the on the casino floors are not like they used to be, or any of that. It's it's definitely a much higher profit, higher cost. Kind of a place to go. I've never been that needy to go to Las Vegas and spend a lot of time. I've been there for some meetings, but I've never really spent a lot of time in Las Vegas. It's a fascinating town. Um. One of my favorite barbecue places in New York, opened up a branch in Las Vegas, a place called Virgil's best barbecue in the country. And when they opened the restaurant, the Virgil's restaurant in Las Vegas, my understanding is that the people who opened it for Virgil's had to first spend six months in New York to make sure that they did it exactly the same way. And I'll tell you, the food tastes the same. It's just as good as New York. So that that would draw me to Las Vegas just to go to Virgil's. That's kind of fun. Well, tell us a little about the early Stuart kind of growing up and all that, and what led you to do the kinds of things you do, and so on. But tell us about the early Stuart, if you would. Stuart Pollington ** 05:47 Yeah, no problem. I mean, was quite sporty, very sporty. When I was younger, used to play a lot of what we call football, which would be soccer over, over your way. So, you know, very big, younger into, like the the team sports and things like that, did well at school, absolutely in the lessons, not so great when it came to kind of exams and things like that. So I, you know, I learned a lot from school, but I don't think especially back then, and I think potentially the same in other countries. I don't think that the the education system was set up to cater for everyone, and obviously that's difficult. I do feel that. I do feel that maybe now people are a bit more aware of how individual, different individuals perform under different circumstances and need different kind of ways to motivate, etc. So, yeah, I mean, I that that was kind of me at school. Did a lot of sport that, you know was good in the lessons, but maybe not so good at the PAM studying, if you like, you know the studying that you need to do for exams where you really have to kind of cram and remember all that knowledge. And I also found with school that it was interesting in the lessons, but I never really felt that there was any kind of, well, we're learning this, but, and this is how you kind of utilize it, or this is the practical use of what we're learning for life, if that, if that makes sense. Yeah. So, you know, like when we were learning, and I was always very good at maths, and I love numbers, and you know, when we were learning things in maths and things like that, I just never felt that it was explained clearly what you would actually use that for. So when you're learning different equations, it wasn't really well explained how you would then utilize that later in life, which I think, for me personally, I think that would have made things more interesting, and would have helped to kind of understand which areas you should focus on. And, you know, maybe more time could have been spent understanding what an individual is good at, and then kind of explaining, well, if you're good at this, or passionate with this, then this is what you could do with it. I think I remember sitting down with our I can't they would have been our advisors at the time, where you sit down and talk about what you want to do after school, and the question was always, what do you want to be? Whereas, you know, for me personally, I think it would have been more useful to understand, what are your passion you know? What are you passionate about? What are you good at? What do you enjoy doing? And then saying, Well, you know, you could actually do this. This is something you could do, you know. So you could take that and you could become, this could be the sort of career you could do, if that makes sense. So anyway, that that was kind of like, like school and everything like that. And then after school, you know, I didn't, I worked for a couple of years. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Funnily enough, there was actually a Toys R Us opening in Brighton in one of the summers she went and got, I got a summer job there at Toys R Us. And I really enjoyed that. Actually, that was my first step into actually doing a bit of sales. I worked on the computers. So we were, you know, selling the computers to people coming in. And when we opened the store, it's a brand new store. You know, it was just when the pay as you go. Mobile phones were kind of just coming out. We had Vodafone analog, but it was the non contract where you could just buy top up cards when they first came out, and I remember we were the first store, because we were a new store. We were the first store to have those phones for sale. And I remember just being really determined to just try and be the first person to just sell the first ever mobile phone within Toys R Us. And I remember I started in the morning, and I think my lunch was at, say, 12, but I missed my lunch, and I think I was up till about one, one or 2pm until finally I managed to find someone who, who was, who me, had that need or wanted the phone, and so I made that first sale for toys r us in the UK with the mobile phone, and that that, in itself, taught me a lot about, you know, not giving up and kind of pushing through and persevering a bit. So yeah, that that was kind of my, my early part. I was always interested in other cultures, though. I was always interested at school, you know, I do projects on Australia, Egypt and things like that. And, you know, in the UK, when you get to about, I think similar, similar to America, but, you know, in the UK, where you either before or after uni, it's quite usual to do, like, a gap year or do a bit of traveling. And I just kind of never got round to it. And I had friends that went and did a gap year or years working holiday in Australia, and I remember when they came back, and I was like, Yeah, you know, that's that's actually what I want to do. So when I was about 22 it was at that point, and I'd worked my way up by them from Toys R Us, I'd already moved around the country, helped them open new stores in different locations in the UK. Was working in their busiest story of in Europe, which was in London. But I decided I wanted to kind of I wanted to go and travel. So I remember talking to my area manager at the time and saying, Look, this is what I want to do. I had a friend who was traveling, and he was meeting up with his sister, and his sister happened to be in Las Vegas, which is how we, we kind of ended up there. And I remember talking to my area manager at the time and saying that I want to leave, I want to go and do this. And I remember him sat down just trying to kind of kind of talk me out of it, because they obviously saw something in me. They wanted me to continue on the path I was doing with them, which was going, you know, towards the management, the leadership kind of roles. And I remember the conversation because I was saying to him, Look, I want, I want to, I want to go and travel. I really want to go. I'm going to go to Las Vegas or to travel America. And his response to me was, well, you know, if you stay here for another x years, you can get to this position, then you can go and have a holiday in America, and you could, you can get a helicopter, you can fly over the Grand Canyon, and kind of really trying to sell me into staying in that path that they wanted me to go on. And I thought about that, and I just said, No, I don't want to just go on a holiday. I really just want to immerse myself, and I just want to go there, and I want to live the experience. And so yeah, I I left that position, went to Las Vegas, ended up staying six months. I did three months. Did a bit in Mexico, came back for another three months. And that's where I met a lot of different people from different countries. And I really kind of got that initial early bug of wanting to go out and seeing a bit more of the world. And it was at that point in my life where I was in between, kind of the end of education, beginning of my business career, I guess, and I had that gap where it was the opportunity to do it. So I did, so yeah, I did that time in America, then back to the UK, then a year in Australia, which was great. And then, yeah, like I said, on the way home, is where I did my stop over. And then just obviously fell in love with Thailand and Asia, and that became my mindset after that year going back to the UK. My mindset was, how do I get back to Thailand? You know, how do I get back to Asia? I also spent a bit of time, about five years in the Philippines as well. So, you know, I like, I like, I like the region, I like the people, I like the kind of way of life, if you like. Michael Hingson ** 14:23 So when you were working in the Philippines, and then when you got to Thailand, what did you do? Stuart Pollington ** 14:30 Yeah, so I mean, it all starts with Thailand, really. So I mean, originally, when I first came over, I was, I was teaching and doing, trying to kind of some teaching and voluntary stuff. When I came back, I did a similar thing, and then I got, I get, I wouldn't say lucky, I guess I had an opportunity to work for a company that was, we were, we were basically selling laptop. Laptops in the UK, student laptops, they were refurbished like your IBM or your Dell, and we they would be refurbished and resold normally, to students. And we also, we also used to sell the the laptop batteries. So we would sell like the IBM or Dell laptop batteries, but we sell the OEM, you know, so we would get them direct from, from from China, so like third party batteries, if you like. And back in the day, this is just over 20 years ago, but back then, early days of what we would call digital marketing and online marketing. And you know, our website in the UK, we used to rank, you know, number one for keywords like IBM, refurb, refurbished. IBM, laptop Dell, laptop battery, IBM battery. So we used to rank above the brands, and that was my introduction, if you like, to digital marketing and how it's possible to make money online. And then that kind of just morphed into, well, you know, if we're able to do this for our own business, why can't we do this for other businesses? And that would have been the, you know, the early owners and founders of the of smart digital and smart traffic seeing that opportunity and transitioning from running one business and doing well to helping multiple businesses do well online and that, that was the bit I really enjoy. You know, talking to different business owners in different industries. A lot of what we do is very similar, but then you have slightly different approaches, depending on them, the location and the type of business that people are in. Michael Hingson ** 16:47 Well, you, you have certainly been been around. You formed your own or you formed countries along the way, like Eastern energy and smart digital group. What were they? Right? Stuart Pollington ** 16:59 Yeah. So, so yeah, going back to the computer website. Out of that came a company called smart traffic that was put together by the free original founders, guy called Simon, guy called Ben, and a guy called Andy. And so they originally came together and put and had created, if you like, smart traffic. And smart traffic is a digital marketing agency originally started with SEO, the organic, you know, so when someone's searching for something in Google, we help get websites to the top of that page so that people can then click on them, and hopefully they get a lead or a sale, or whatever they're they're trying to do with that, with that traffic. So, yeah, they originally put that together. I being here and on the ground. I then started working within the business. So I was running the student website, if you like, the laptop website, and then got the opportunity from very early on to work within the Digital Marketing Company. I've got a sales background, but I'm also quite technical, and I would say I'm good with numbers, so a little bit analytical as well. So the opportunity came. We had opened an office in the Philippines, and it had been open for about, I think, 18 months or two years, and it was growing quite big, and they wanted someone else to go over there to support Simon, who was one of the founders who opened the office over there. And that's when I got the opportunity. So I was over in Cebu for what, five, five and a half years. At one point, we had an office there with maybe 120 staff, and we did a lot of the technical SEO, and we were delivering campaigns for the UK. So we had a company in the UK. We had one in Australia, and then also locally, within the kind of Thai market. And that was fantastic. I really enjoyed working over in the Philippines again. Culture enjoyed the culture enjoyed the people. Really enjoyed, you know, just getting stuck in and working on different client campaigns. And then eventually that brought me back to Thailand. There was a restructure of the company we, you know, we moved a lot of the a lot of the deliverables around. So I was then brought back to Thailand, which suited me, because I wanted to come back to Thailand at that point. And then I had the opportunity. So the previous owners, they, they created a couple of other businesses in Thailand. They're one that very big one that went really well, called dot property, so they ended up moving back to the UK. Long story short, about maybe 10 years ago, I got the opportunity to take over smart digital in Thailand and smart traffic in Australia, which are both the. Marketing agencies that I'd been helping to run. So I had the opportunity to take those over and assume ownership of those, which was fantastic. And then I've obviously been successfully running those for the last 10 years, both here and and in Australia, we do a lot of SEO. We do a lot of Google ads and social campaigns and web design, and we do a lot of white label. So we we sit in the background for other agencies around the world. So there'll be agencies in, you know, maybe Australia, the UK, America, some in Thailand as well, who are very strong at maybe social or very strong ads, but maybe not as strong on the SEO so we, we just become their SEO team. We'll run and manage the campaigns for them, and then we'll deliver all the reporting with their branding on so that they can then plug that into what they do for their clients and deliver to their clients. So that's all fantastic. I mean, I love, I love digital marketing. I love, I love looking at the data and, you know, working out how things work. And we've been very successful over the years, which then led on to that opportunity that you mentioned and you asked about with Eastern energy. So that was about three and a half years ago, right right around the COVID time, I had a meeting, if you like, in in Bangkok, with a guy called Robert Eason. He was actually on his way to the UK with his family, and kind of got stuck in Bangkok with all the lockdowns, and he was actually on his way to the UK to start Eastern energy there. And Eastern energy is basically, it's an energy monitoring and energy efficiency company. It's basically a UK design solution where we have a hardware technology that we retrofit, which is connects, like to the MDB, and then we have sensors that we place around the location, and for every piece of equipment that we connect to this solution, we can see in real time, second by second, the energy being used. We can then take that data, and we use machine learning and AI to actually work with our clients to identify where their energy wastage is, and then work with them to try and reduce that energy wastage, and that reduces the amount of energy they're using, which reduces their cost, but also, very importantly, reduces the CO two emissions. And so I had this chance encounter with Robert, and I remember, at the time I was we were talking about how this solution worked, and I was like, oh, that's quite interesting. You know, I've I, you know, the the digital marketing is going quite well. Could be time to maybe look at another kind of opportunity, if you like. So I had a look at how it worked. I looked at the kind of ideal clients and what sort of other projects were being delivered by the group around the world. And there were a couple of big name brands over in there. So because it works quite well with qsrs, like quick service restaurant, so like your fast food chains, where you have multiple locations. And it just so happened that one of the in case studies they'd had, I just through my networking, I do a lot of networking with the chambers in Bangkok. Through my networking, I actually happened to know some of the people in the right positions at some of these companies. I'd never had the opportunity to work with them, with the digital marketing because most of them would have their own in house teams, and I just saw it as an opportunity to maybe do something with this here. So I, you know, I said to Robert, give me a week. And then a week later, I said, right, we've got a meeting with this company. It's international fast food brand. They've got 1700 locations in Thailand. So when ended that meeting, very, very positive. And after that meeting, I think Robert and I just I said to Robert, you know, currently you have a plan to go to the UK. Currently you're stuck in Thailand with lockdown, with COVID. We don't know what's going to happen and where everything's going to go. Why don't we do it here? And that's where it originally came from. We decided, let's, you know, let's, let's give that a shot over here. Since then, we've brought in two other partners. There's now four of us, a guy called Gary and a guy called Patrick. And yeah, I mean, it's a bit slower than I thought it would be, but it's in the last. Six months, it's really kind of picked up, which has been fantastic. And for me, it was, for me, it was just two things that made sense. One, I love I love data, and I love the technology. So I love the fact that we're now helping businesses by giving them data that they don't currently have the access to, you know. So when you get, you know, when you when you get your electricity bill, you get it the month after you've used everything, don't you, and it just tells you how much you've got to pay. And there's not really much choice. So what we're doing is giving them the visibility in real time to see where their energy is going and be able to make changes in real time to reduce that energy wastage. And I just thought, Well, look, this is great. It's very techie. It's using, you know, date big data, which I love, using machine learning and AI, which is great. And then I also, you know, I do care about the environment. I got two young kids, so I do care about what's happening around the world. And for me, that was a win, win. You know, I got to, I got to do something with tech that was new and exciting. It's definitely new to this region, even though it's been new to the same sort of technology has been utilized in Europe and America for a number of years. So it felt new, it felt exciting. And it's also good, you know, because we are helping people on the path to net zero. You know, how can we get to net zero? How can we reduce these emissions? So, yeah, I mean that that, for me, is Stuart Pollington ** 26:40 two different types of, in my opinion, entrepreneurial kind of journeys. One is that the with the digital marketing is, is all it's a story of working my way up to then reach the top, if you like. And whereas Eastern energy is more of a traditional kind of as an entrepreneur, this is, this is an idea. Let's do something with it and get an exciting about it. So two kind of, two different approaches to get to the ownership stage, if you like. Michael Hingson ** 27:14 I have an interesting story. I appreciate what you're saying. The whole entrepreneurial spirit is so important in what we do, and I wish more people had it. But years ago, one of my first jobs out of college was working for a company in Massachusetts, Kurzweil Computer Products. Ray Kurzweil, who developed, originally a reading machine for the blind, and then later a more commercial version of it. And there's somebody that I had met when I was a student at UC Irvine who ended up being back in Massachusetts working for at that time, a think tank consulting company called Bolt Beranek and Newman. I don't know whether you're familiar with them. They changed their name to, I think it was CLOUD NINE or Planet Nine. But Dick was telling me one day that, and this is when mainframe computers were so large and there was a lot needed to keep them cool and so on. Anyway, he was telling me that one day the gas utility came in because the total heating bill for the six story building was like $10 and they wanted to know how BBN bolt, brannic and Newman was stealing energy and and making it so that they didn't pay very much money. And the the president of the company said, let me show you. They went down to the basement, and there they had two PDP 20s, which are like dual PDP 10s. And they put out a lot of heat, needless to say, to run them. And what BBN did was to take all of that heat and pipe it through the building to keep the building warm in the winter. Rather than paying all the gas bills, they were using something that they already had, the entrepreneurial spirit liveth well. And the bottom line is they, they kept the building well heated. And I don't know what they did in the summer, but during the winter it was, it was pretty cool, and they were able to have $10 gas bills for the six story building, which was kind of fun. No, Stuart Pollington ** 29:39 that's brilliant, yeah, and that just goes to show me, that is what a large part of this, you know, energy efficiency and things like that, is, it's, it's, it's not about just completely replacing or stopping something. It's about better utilizing it. Isn't it? So they, you know the example you just gave there, with the heat and the wasted energy of being lost in that heat release they've used and utilized, which is brilliant. Michael Hingson ** 30:12 I a couple of years ago. So my wife passed away in 2022 and we have a furnace and so on here, and we had gas bills that were up in the $200 a month or more up as much as $300 a month in the winter to keep the house at a temperature that we could stand. And two years ago, I thought about, how do we lower that? And I was never a great fan of space heaters, but I decided to try something. We got a couple of space heaters, and we put them out in the living room, and we have ceiling fans. So turned on the space heaters and turned on the ceiling fans, and it did a pretty decent job of keeping the temperature down, such that for most months, I didn't even have to turn the furnace on at all, and our heating bill went down to like $39 a month. Then last year, we got an additional heater that was a little bit larger, and added that to the mix. And again, the bottom line is that if I start all of that early in the morning, our heating bill is like 30 $35 a month. Now I do cheat occasionally, and I'll turn the furnace on for about 45 minutes or 50 minutes in the morning with the ceiling fans to help distribute the warmer air, and I can get the house up to 75 degrees, or almost 30 Celsius, in in a very quick time. And then with the other two space heaters running, I don't have to use furnaces or anything for the rest of the day. So I think this year, the most expensive heating bill we had was like $80 because I did occasionally run the the the heaters or the furnace, and when I was traveling, I would turn the furnace on for the cat a little bit. But the bottom line is, there's so many things that we can do to be creative, if we think about it, to make things run more efficiently and not use as much energy and eliminate a lot of the waste that that we have, and so that that has worked out pretty well, and I have solar on the house. So in the summer, when most people around here are paying four and $500 a month for their electric bills to run the air conditioning. My electric bill year round, is $168 a month, which is Stuart Pollington ** 32:47 cool. Yeah, no, that's great that you've and you've that is a great example there of kind of how you know our approach to energy efficiency. You know what? What are you currently doing? Is there a more efficient way of doing it? Which is exactly what you found, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 33:07 yeah, and it works really well. So I can't complain it's warming up now. So in fact, we're not I haven't turned the furnace or anything on at all this week. This is the first week it's really been warm at night. In fact, it was 75 degrees Fahrenheit last night. I actually had to turn the air conditioner on and lower the house to 70 degrees, and then turned it off because I don't need to keep it on, and made it easier to sleep. But it's it's amazing, if we think about it, what the things that we can do to make our energy lives more efficient, lower the carbon footprint, and all those kinds of things. So I hear what you're saying, and it's and it's important, I think that we all think about as many ways as we can of doing that. I Stuart Pollington ** 33:56 think one of the biggest problems with energy is just invisible. You don't, you know, you don't really see it. No. So just, it's just one of those. You just don't really think about it. And again, you only get, you only get told what you've used once you've used it. Yeah, so it's too late by then. And then you go, Oh, you know, you might get an expensive bill. And go, oh, I need to be careful. And then you're careful for a few days or a week, and then again, you don't see it until you get your next bill. Yeah, it's really hard as with anything. I mean, it's a bit like going to the gym. If you go to the gym or the fitness and you just do it sporadically. You don't really have a routine, or, you know, it's gonna be very hard to achieve anything. But then if you, if you set your mind to it, if you maybe get a trainer, and you get a you go onto a better diet, and you follow your routine, you can you will see the results. And it's very similar to what we do. If you've once you've got the data, and you can actually see what. Happening, you can make proper, informed and educated business decisions, and that's what we're trying to do with that is to help businesses make the right decision on the path to net zero Michael Hingson ** 35:11 well, and you have to develop the mindset as the consumer to bring in a company like yours, or at least think about yourself. What can I do consistently to have a better energy pattern? And I think that's what most people tend not to do a lot, and the result of that is that they pay more than they need to. The power companies like it, the gas companies like it. But still, there are better ways to do it so. So tell me you have been in business and been an entrepreneur for a long time. What is maybe an example of some major crisis or thing that happened to you that you you regard as a failure or a setback that you have had to deal with and that taught you something crucial about business or life. Stuart Pollington ** 36:08 Brilliant question. I mean, I would, I would guess, over 20 years, there's been a lot of different, sorry, a lot of different things that have happened. I think probably, probably an impactful one would have been. And this taught me a lot about my team, and, you know, their approach and how everyone can pull together. So it would have been, I think it was about, it was when I was in the Philippines. So it would have been about maybe 1212, years ago, we're in Cebu, and there was a big earthquake, and when it hit Cebu, I think it was quite early in the morning. It was like 6am and I remember the whole bed was kind of shaking and rocking, and we, you know, had to get out of the condo. And we're, at the time, living in a place called it Park. And in the Philippines, there's a lot of cool centers, so it's very much 24/7 with an office environment. So as we're coming out of the condo, in literally pants, as in, when I say pants, I mean underwear, because you literally jump out of bed and run. And they were like 1000s, 1000s of all the local Filipinos all all in their normal clothes, because they've all doing the call center work. And I remember just, you know, sitting out on the ground as the aftershocks and whole grounds moving and and, and that that was a very, you know, personal experience. But then on top of that, I've then got over 100 staff in in Cebu at the time that I then have to think about. And, you know, is everyone okay? And then, because of the time it happened, Luckily no one was in the office because it was early, yeah, but it all but it also meant that everything we needed Michael Hingson ** 38:08 was in the office. Was in the office. Yeah, yeah. So, Stuart Pollington ** 38:10 so I remember Matt, you know, I remember getting a group of us there, was myself and maybe three or four others from the office, and I remember getting in my car, drove to the office. We were on, I think it's like the eighth or ninth floor, and they didn't want to let us in because of, obviously, the earthquake, and it was a, it was a couple of hours later, and you've got to be obviously, you know, everything needs checking. You still got all the aftershocks, but we managed to let them allow us to run up the fire exit to the office so we could grab, you know, I think we were grabbing, like, 1520, laptops and screens to put in the car so that we could then, and we had to do that of the fire exit, so running up, running down, and that was all into The car so we could then drive to a location where I could get some of my team together remote and to work in this. I think we ended up in some coffee shop we found that was open, and we had the old free G boost kind of the Wi Fi dongles, dongles. And I just remember having to get, like, 1015, of my team, and we're all sat around there in the coffee shop in the morning. You know, there's still the after shops going on the I remember the office building being a mess, and, you know, the tiles had come in and everything, and it was all a bit crazy, but we had to find a way to keep the business running. So we were in the Philippines, we were the support team. We did all of the delivery of the work, but we also worked with the account managers in the UK and Australia as their technical liaisons, if you like. So we. Helped do the strategy. We did everything. And so with us out of action, the whole of Australia and of the whole of the UK team were kind of in a limbo, so we really had to pull together as a team. It taught me a lot about my staff and my team, but it also kind of it taught me about, no matter what does happen, you know, you can find a way through things, you know. So at the time that it happened, it felt like, you know, that's it, what we're going to do, but we had to turn that around and find the way to keep everything going. And yeah, that, that that just taught me a lot of you know, you can't give up. You've got to find a way to kind of push on through. And yeah, we did a fantastic job. Everyone was safe. Sorry. I probably should have said that. You know, no one, none of my team, were affected directly from the from the earthquake, which was great, and we found a way to keep things going so that the business, if you like, didn't fall apart. We, Michael Hingson ** 41:09 you know, I guess, in our own way, had a similar thing, of course, with September 11, having our office on the 78th floor of Tower One, the difference is that that my staff was out that day working. They weren't going to be in the office. One person was going to be because he had an appointment at Cantor Fitzgerald up on the 96th floor of Tower One for 10 o'clock in the morning, and came in on one of the trains. But just as it arrived at the station tower two was hit, and everything shook, and the engineer said, don't even leave. We're going back out. And they left. But we lost everything in the office that day, and there was, of course, no way to get that. And I realized the next day, and my wife helped me start to work through it, that we had a whole team that had no office, had nothing to go to, so we did a variety of things to help them deal with it. Most of them had their computers because we had laptops by that time, and I had taken my laptop home the previous night and backed up all of my data onto my computer at home, so I was able to work from home, and other people had their computers with them. The reason I didn't have my laptop after September 11 is that I took it in that day to do some work. But needless to say, when we evacuated, it was heavy enough that going down 1463 stairs, 78 floors, that would have been a challenge with the laptop, so we left it, but it worked out. But I hear what you're saying, and the reality is that you got to keep the team going. And even if you can't necessarily do the work that you normally would do you still have to keep everyone's spirits up, and you have to do what needs to be done to keep everybody motivated and be able to function. So I think I learned the same lessons as you and value, of course, not that it all happened, but what I learned from it, because it's so important to be able to persevere and move forward, which, which is something that we don't see nearly as much as sometimes we really should. Stuart Pollington ** 43:34 Yeah, no, no, definitely. I mean the other thing, and I think you you just mentioned there actually is it. You know, it was also good to see afterwards how everyone kind of pulls together. And, you know, we had a lot of support, not just in the Philippines, but from the UK and the Australia teams. I mean, we had a, we had a bit of an incident, you know, may have seen on the news two weeks ago, I think now, we had an incident in Bangkok where there was a earthquake in Myanmar, and then the all the buildings are shaking in Bangkok, yeah, 7.9 Yeah, that's it. And just, but just to see everyone come together was, was it's just amazing. You know? It's a shame, sometimes it takes something big to happen for people to come together and support each other. Michael Hingson ** 44:27 We saw so much of that after September 11. For a while, everyone pulled together, everyone was supporting each other. But then over time, people forgot, and we ended up as a as a country, in some ways, being very fractured. Some political decisions were made that shouldn't have been, and that didn't help, but it was unfortunate that after a while, people started to forget, in fact, I went to work for an organization out in California in 2002 in addition to. To taking on a career of public speaking, and in 2008 the president of the organization said, we're changing and eliminating your job because nobody's interested in September 11 anymore, which was just crazy, but those are the kinds of attitudes that some people have, well, yeah, there was so little interest in September 11 anymore that when my first book, thunderdog was published, it became a number one New York Times bestseller. Yeah, there was no interest. It's Stuart Pollington ** 45:31 just, I hope you sent him a signed copy and said, There you go. Michael Hingson ** 45:35 Noah was even more fun than that, because this person had been hired in late 2007 and she did such a great job that after about 18 months, the board told her to go away, because she had so demoralized the organization that some of the departments were investigating forming unions, you know. So I didn't need to do anything. Wow, so, you know, but it, it's crazy, the attitudes that people have. Well, you have it is, it's it's really sad. Well, you have done a couple of things that I think are very interesting. You have moved to other countries, and you've also started businesses in unfamiliar markets. What advice? What advice would you give to someone who you learn about who's doing that today, starting a business in an unfamiliar market, or in a foreign country, or someplace where they've never been? Stuart Pollington ** 46:34 Yeah, again, good questions. I looking back and then so and seeing what I'm doing now, and looking back to when I first came over, I think chambers, I think if I have one, you know, obviously you need to understand the market you want. You need to understand, like the labor laws, the tax laws and, you know, the business laws and things like that. But I think, I think the best thing you could do in any country is to check out the chambers. You know, I'm heavily involved and active with aus Jam, which is the Australian Chamber of Commerce, because of the connection with smart traffic in Australia, in Sydney, the digital marketing. I'm also involved with bcct, the British chamber as British Chamber of Commerce Thailand as well, that there's a very big AmCham American Chamber over here as well. And I just think that the chambers can help a lot. You know, they're good for the networking. Through the networking, you can meet the different types of people you need to know, connections with visas, with, you know, work permits, how to set up the business, recruiting everything. So everything I need, I can actually find within this ecosphere of the chambers. And the chambers in Thailand and Bangkok, specifically, they're very active, lots of regular networking, which brings, you know, introductions, new leads to the business, new connections. And then on top of that, we've had, we've had a lot of support from the British Embassy over in in Thailand, especially with the Eastern energy, because it is tech based, because it is UK Tech, and because it is obviously something that's good for the environment and what everyone's trying to push towards. So I think the two key areas for me, if you are starting a business in an unfamiliar area, is one. Check out the chambers. So obviously the first one you'd look at is your own nationality. But don't stress too much about that. I mean, the chambers over here will welcome anyone from any nationality. So, you know, utilize the chambers because it's through that that you're going to get to speak to people, expats, already running businesses. You'll hear the horror stories. You'll hear the tips. It will save you some time, it will save you some money, and it will save you from making similar mistakes. And then also talk to your embassy and how they can maybe support you. We've had, again, some great support from the British Embassy. They've witnessed demo use. They've helped us with introductions. On the energy efficiency side, Michael Hingson ** 49:26 one of the things that clearly happens though, with you is that you also spend time establishing relationships with people, so you talk about the chamber and so on. But it also has to be that you've established and developed trusting relationships, so that you are able to learn the things that you learned, and that people are willing to help teach you. And I suspect that they also realize that you would be willing to help others as well. Stuart Pollington ** 49:55 Yeah, and I think I mean yes, and I'm talking about. And I mentioned, sorry, networking and the changes. But with networking, you know, you don't, you shouldn't go in there with the mindset of, I'm going into networking. I want to make as many sales as I can. Whatever you go into the networking. Is an opportunity to meet people, to learn from people you then some of those people, or most of those people, may not even be the right fit for you, but it's about making those relationships and then helping each other and making introductions. So you know, a lot of what I do with the chambers, I run a lot of webinars. I do workshops where I do free training on digital marketing, on AI, on SEO, on ads, on social. I use that as my lead gen, if you like. So I spend a lot of time doing this educationally and helping people. And then the offshot of that is that some of those will come and talk to me and ask me to how I can help them, or they will recommend me to someone else. And you know, we all know in business, referrals are some of the best leads you can get. Michael Hingson ** 51:11 Yeah, by any, by any definition, one of, one of the things that I tell every sales person that I've ever hired is you are a student, at least for your first year, don't hesitate to ask questions, because in reality, in general, people are going to be perfectly willing to help you. They're not going to look down on you if you ask questions and legitimately are looking for guidance and information. Again, it's not about you, it's about what you learn, and it's about how you then are able to use that knowledge to help other people, and the people and the individuals who recognize that do really well. Stuart Pollington ** 51:50 No, exactly, and I don't know about you, Michael, but I like, I like helping people. Yeah, I like, it makes me feel good. And, yeah, that's, that's a big part of it as well. You know Michael Hingson ** 52:01 it is and, and that's the way it ought to be. It's, that's the other thing that I tell them. I said, once you have learned a great deal, first of all, don't forget that you're always going to be a student. And second of all, don't hesitate to be a teacher and help other people as well. Speaker 1 ** 52:16 Man, that's really important. Yeah, brilliant. Michael Hingson ** 52:20 Now you have worked across a number of sectors and market, marketing, tech, sales, energy and so on. How did how do you do that? You You've clearly not necessarily been an expert in those right at the beginning. So how do you learn and grow and adapt to be able to to work in those various industries. Stuart Pollington ** 52:41 Yeah, I mean, for the marketing, for the marketing, it helps that I really was interested in it. So there was a good there was a good interest. And if you're interested in something, then you get excited about it, and you have the motivation and the willingness to learn and ask the questions, like you said, and then that is where you can take that kind of passion and interest and turn it into something a bit more constructive. It's a bit like I was saying at the beginning. It's the sort of thing I wish they'd done a bit maybe with me at school, was understand what I was good at and what I liked. But yeah, so with the marketing, I mean, very similar to what you've said, I asked questions. I see it just seems to click in my head on how it worked. And it kind of made sense to me. It was just one of these things that clicked, yeah. And so for the marketing, I just found it personally quite interesting, but interesting, but also found it quite easy. It just made sense to me, you know. And similar, you know, using computers and technology, I think it just makes sense. It doesn't to everyone. And other people have their strengths in other areas, but, you know, for me, it made sense. So, you know that that was the easy part. Same with Eastern energy, it's technology. It makes sense. I love it, but at the end of the day, it's all about it's all about people, really business, and you've got your people and your team, and how you motivate them is going to be similar. It's going to be slightly different depending on culture and where you're based, in the type of industry you're in, but also very similar. You know, people want praise, they want constructive feedback. They want to know where they're gonna be in a year or five years. All of that's very similar. So you people within the business, and then your customers are just people as well, aren't they? Well, customers, partners, clients, you know that they are just people. So it's all, it's all, it's all about people, regardless of what we're doing. And because it's all very similar with tech and that, it just, yeah, I don't know. It just makes sense to me. Michael, I mean, it's different. It's funny, because when I do do network and I talk to people, I say, Well, I've got this digital marketing agency here. Work, and then I've got this energy efficiency business here. And the question is always, wow, they sound really different. How did you how did you get into them? But when, again, when I look at it, it's not it's it's tech, it's tech, it's data, it's people. That's how I look at it, Michael Hingson ** 55:16 right? And a lot of the same rules apply across the board. Yes, there are specific things about each industry that are different, but the basics are the same. Stuart Pollington ** 55:28 That's it. I, in fact, I that isn't almost, there's almost word for word. What I use when I'm explaining our approach to SEO, I just say, Look, you know, there's, there's three core areas with SEO, it's the tech, the on site, it's the content, and it's the off site signals, or the link building. I said they're the three core areas for Google. They've been the same for, you know, 20 years. Within those areas, there's lots of individual things you need to look at, and that changes a lot. And there's 1000s of things that go into the algorithm, but the basics are the same. Sort your tech, sort the text, sort the tech of it out, the speed of the site and the usability. Make sure your content is good and relevant and authoritative, and then get other sites to recommend you and reference you, you know So, but, yeah, that's very similar to how I try and explain SEO. Yeah, you know all this stuff going on, but you still got the core basics of the same. Michael Hingson ** 56:29 It is the same as it has always been, absolutely. So what do you do? Or how do you deal with a situation when plans necessarily don't go like you think they should, and and all that. How do you stay motivated? Stuart Pollington ** 56:45 I mean, it depends, it depends what's gone wrong. But, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm a big believer in, you know, learning from your mistakes and then learning also learning from what went wrong. Because sometimes you don't make a mistake and something goes wrong, but something still goes wrong. I think it helps. It helps to have a good team around you and have a good support team that you can talk to. It's good to be able to work through issues. But, I mean, for me, I think the main thing is, you know, every like you were saying earlier, about asking questions and being a student for a year. You know everything that happens in business, good or bad, is a lesson that should help you be better in the future. So you know the first thing, when something goes wrong, understand what's gone wrong first. Why did it go wrong? How did it go wrong? How do we resolve this, if we need to resolve something for the client or us, and then how do we try and limit that happening in the future? And then what do we learn from that? And how do we make sure we can improve and be better? And I think, you know, it's not always easy when things go wrong, but I think I'm long enough in the tooth now that I understand that, you know, the bad days don't last. There's always a good day around the corner, and it's about, you know, working out how you get through Michael Hingson ** 58:10 it. And that's the issue, is working it out. And you have to have the tenacity and, well, the interest and the desire to work it out, rather than letting it overwhelm you and beat you down, you learn how to move forward. Stuart Pollington ** 58:25 Yeah, and that's not easy, is it? I mean, let's be honest. I mean, even, even being when we were younger and kids, you know, things happen. It does. We're just human, aren't we? We have emotions. We have certain feelings. But if you can just deal with that and then constructively and critically look at the problem, you can normally find a solution. Michael Hingson ** 58:46 Yeah, exactly. What's one piece of advice you wished you had learned earlier in your entrepreneurial career? Stuart Pollington ** 58:56 Um, I Yeah. I mean, for this one. I think, I think what you said earlier, actually, it got me thinking during wise we've been talking because I was kind of, I would say, don't be afraid to ask questions just based on what we've been talking about. It's changed a little bit because I was going to say, well, you know, one of the things I really wish I'd learned or known earlier was, you know, about the value of mentorship and kind of finding the the right people who can almost show you where you need to be, but you could, you know, but when people hear the word mentor, they think of either or, you know, someone really, yeah, high up who I could I'm too afraid to ask them, or someone who's going to cost you 1000s of dollars a month. So actually, I'm going to change that to don't be afraid to ask questions, because that's basically what you'd expect from a mentor, is to be able to ask. Questions, run ideas. And I think, I think, yeah, I think thinking back now, understanding that the more questions you ask, the more information you have, the better your decisions you can make. And obviously, don't be afraid to learn from other people's experience, because they've been through it, and potentially they could have the right way for you to get through it as well. Michael Hingson ** 1:00:24 And you never know where you're going to find a mentor. Exactly, Stuart Pollington ** 1:00:28 yeah, no, exactly. I think again, you hear the word mentor, and you think people have this diff, a certain perception of it, but it can be anyone. I mean, you know, if I my mom could be my mentor, for, for, for her great, you know, cooking and things that she would do in her roast dinners. You know that that's kind of a mentor, isn't it making a better roast dinner? So I think, yeah, I think, I Michael Hingson ** 1:00:54 think, but it all gets back to being willing to ask questions and to listen, Stuart Pollington ** 1:01:02 and then I would add one more thing. So ask the questions, listen and then take action. And that's where that unstoppable mindset, I think, comes in, because I think people do ask questions, people can listen, but it's the taking action. It's that final step of having the courage to say, I'm going to do this, I'm going to go for Michael Hingson ** 1:01:23 it. And you may find out that what was advised to you may not be the exact thing that works for you, but if you start working at it, and you start trying it, you will figure out what works Stuart Pollington ** 1:01:37 exactly. Yeah, no, exactly. That's it, yeah. Michael Hingson ** 1:01:41 Well, what a great place to actually end this. We've been doing this now over an hour, and I know, can you believe it? And I have a puppy dog who probably says, If you don't feed me dinner soon, you're going to be my dinner. So I should probably go do that. That's Stuart Pollington ** 1:01:57 all good. So for me, I'm going to go and get my breakfast coffee. Now it's 7am now, five past seven in the morning. Michael Hingson ** 1:02:03 There you are. Well, this is my day. This has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate you being here, and I want to say to everyone listening and watching, we really appreciate you being here with us as well. Tell others about unstoppable mindset. We really appreciate that. Love to hear your thoughts and get your thoughts, so feel free to email me with any of your ideas and your your conceptions of all of this. Feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I B, e.com, you can also go to our podcast page. There's a contact form there, and my podcast page is www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O N. Love to hear from you. Would really appreciate it if you'll give us a five star rating wherever you're watching or listening to the podcast today, if you know anyone and steward as well for you, if any one of you listening or participating knows anyone else that you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, we'd love to hear from you. We'd love introductions, always looking for more people to tell their stories. So that's what this is really all about. So I really appreciate you all taking the time to be here, and Stuart, especially you. Thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and we really appreciate you taking your time. Stuart Pollington ** 1:03:26 Thank you, Michael. Thank you everyone. I really enjoyed that. And you know, in the spirit of everything, you know, if, if anyone does have any questions for me, just feel free to reach out. I'm happy to chat. Michael Hingson ** 1:03:39 How do they do that? What's the best way, I Stuart Pollington ** 1:03:41 think probably the LinkedIn so I think on when you post and share this, you will have the link. I think Michael Hingson ** 1:03:49 we will. But why don't you go ahead and say your LinkedIn info anyway? Okay, yeah. Stuart Pollington ** 1:03:53 I mean, the easiest thing to do would just be the Google search for my name on LinkedIn. So Stuart pollington, it's S, T, U, a, r, t, and then P, O, L, L, I N, G, T, O, N, and if you go to LinkedIn, that is my I think I got lucky. I've got the actual LinkedIn URL, LinkedIn, forward slash, I N, forward slash. Stuart pollington, so it should be nice and easy. Michael Hingson ** 1:04:19 Yeah, I think I got that with Michael hingson. I was very fortunate for that as well. Got lucky with Stuart Pollington ** 1:04:23 that. Yeah, they've got numbers and everything. And I'm like, Yes, yeah. Michael Hingson ** 1:04:30 Well, thank you again. This has been a lot of fun, hasn't Stuart Pollington ** 1:04:33 it? He has. I've really enjoyed it. So thank you for the invitation, Michael. **Michael Hingson ** 1:04:42 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

covid-19 america love new york california founders children ai culture australia europe google uk china marketing las vegas work england entrepreneur mexico british new york times united kingdom hospitals park massachusetts blind thailand seo mobile commerce ambassadors thunder philippines west coast stitcher east coast wifi ibm ebooks stuart sort helped unstoppable cto drinks newman thai jam brighton laptops myanmar bangkok grand canyon rutgers university adventurers celsius fahrenheit virgil ic vodafone toys r us american red cross uc irvine sales director oem digital marketers asean filipinos national federation ray kurzweil pdp mdb funnily cloud nine cebu michael h bbn british embassy cantor fitzgerald exxon mobile chief vision officer federal express scripps college british chambers planet nine uk tech michael hingson tower one australian chamber accessibe i yeah american humane association thunder dog why asia hero dog awards

ENTMOOT 109 - SEVEN STONES '25

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 7, 2025 128:15

Harry teams up with Michael H to take a Road to Rivendell inspired force to the fluffiest event in the calendar. Support the podcast: patreon.com/entmoot Email: entmootpodcast@gmail.com

michael h rivendell seven stones

The Smart Play in Multifamily Right Now with Inc500 Michael H. Zaransky

Property Profits Real Estate Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 4, 2025 18:35

In this episode of The Property Profits Podcast, Dave Dubeau chats with Michael H. Zaransky, founder of MZ Capital Partners and a fourth-generation real estate investor. Michael's firm has been recognized as one of the fastest-growing private companies in the U.S. by Inc. Magazine, and for good reason. He breaks down why his current strategy is focused on acquiring newer, stabilized multifamily properties instead of developing or doing heavy value-add. Michael also shares: Why his team is pressing pause on development The reason buying stabilized properties can make more sense than building The generational shift creating unique buying opportunities How decades of family experience shape his investment philosophy - Get Interviewed on the Show! - ================================== Are you a real estate investor with some 'tales from the trenches' you'd like to share with our audience? Want to get great exposure and be seen as a bonafide real estate pro by your friends? Would you like to inspire other people to take action with real estate investing? Then we'd love to interview you! Find out more and pick the date here: http://daveinterviewsyou.com/

smart magazine multifamily michael h dave dubeau inc500

Bleeker Trails E17 - The Birds

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 19, 2025 65:23

Junction spirals further into blood and chaos. Eli, Silas, and Julius reappear into a grisly crime scene, while Moni and Patience face terrifying reckonings of their own.Content Warnings: Self-Harm, Eye Trauma, Animal Death, Body Horror, Forced Restraint, Gun Violence, Death, Profanity, ViolenceKeeper of Arcane Lore: cuppycupCampaign Author: Graeme PatrickExecutive Producer: cuppycupContent Editors: cuppycup, Graeme PatrickDialogue Rough Cut Editor: Rina HaenzeAudio Editor, Sound Designer, Music Supervisor: cuppycupPlayer CharactersBridgett Jeffries as MoniRina Haenze as Patience CartwrightLondon Carlisle as Julius RuffinChuck Lawrence as Eli MalcolmWes Davis as Silas JacobsenNPC VoicesNic Rosenberg as Dot LiggettKim Dalton as Sally WinthropAaron Burke as Jed SummersShawn Smith as Jack GrimmDanny Scott and cuppycup as WaldoVirginia Lee as Gertrudeadditional voices by cuppycup“Dead Man Walking” Theme by Cody FryPatreon ShoutoutAnthony D., Bridget, Caolán M., Drew M., E.M.F.D., Heather P., India thank you terror, Killius Manjaro, Matthew C., Not That Nic, Skip M., Call Me Dirt, Dan F., firecop890, Jeff F., Jessen, Mario S., Michael H., mmm0rphine, Nathanael C., Tomboi LaCroixNew PatronsVexcev, Dev S., Euclid Prime, Patrick S., Susannah M., Rachael B., Craig S., Mr. Chicken, Sarah T., Holden O., Dennis H., Brandon, Bridger D., Lewis A., Jonathan T., klorpdonk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Specter 3/3 - The Ending Story

Play Episode Listen Later May 23, 2025 55:18

The investigators face devastating truths as Wilhelm tears the group apart. Can they sever Wilhelm's hold once and for all or will his dark plans consume them?This series is not suitable for listeners under the age of 18 and may contain material some people find disturbing.CONTENT WARNINGS:Suicide, Domestic violence, Body horror, Strangulation, Loss of Agency, Gaslighting, Gun violence, Possession, Profanity, ViolencePlayer CharactersJared Logan as KeeperMary Lou as Desiree PalmerNic Rosenberg as Dorothy LarsenScott Dorward as Father Martin McClintockCorbin Cupp as Lincoln ReeveProduction and CreativeEditing by Corbin CuppPatreon ShoutoutAnthony D., Bridget, Caolán M., Drew M., E.M.F.D., Heather P., India thank you terror, Killius Manjaro, Matthew C., Not That Nic, Skip M., Call Me Dirt, Dan F., firecop890, Jeff F., Jessen, Mario S., Michael H., mmm0rphine, Nathanael C., Tomboi LaCroix Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

body loss guns ending agency acast domestic possession gaslighting wilhelm profanity specter marios michael h jessen strangulation dan f matthew c caol skip m

The Specter 2/3 - The Fetter

Play Episode Listen Later May 22, 2025 59:18

Things turn sinister as Wilhelm's return unsettles the group. Dreams blur with reality and sanity unravels. Can the investigators discover what's truly binding their ghostly friend to this world?This series is not suitable for listeners under the age of 18 and may contain material some people find disturbing.CONTENT WARNINGS:Suicide, Loss of Agency, Gaslighting, Drug references, Possession, Profanity, ViolencePlayer CharactersJared Logan as KeeperMary Lou as Desiree PalmerNic Rosenberg as Dorothy LarsenScott Dorward as Father Martin McClintockCorbin Cupp as Lincoln ReeveProduction and CreativeEditing by Corbin CuppPatreon ShoutoutAnthony D., Bridget, Caolán M., Drew M., E.M.F.D., Heather P., India thank you terror, Killius Manjaro, Matthew C., Not That Nic, Skip M., Call Me Dirt, Dan F., firecop890, Jeff F., Jessen, Mario S., Michael H., mmm0rphine, Nathanael C., Tomboi LaCroix Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

dreams loss agency acast drug possession gaslighting wilhelm profanity specter marios michael h jessen fetter dan f matthew c caol skip m

The Specter 1/3 - Old Friends