Podcasts about michael h

Die Bundesregierung sucht nach Antworten auf die wirtschaftlichen Herausforderungen des Landes. Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther bezweifeln jedoch, dass sie die richtigen Fragen stellt.

Die Sozialversicherungsbeiträge könnten in den kommenden Jahren auf mehr als 50 Prozent des Bruttolohns steigen. Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther diskutieren vor dem Hintergrund das neue Frühjahrsgutachten des Sachverständigenrates.

What happens when heartbreak becomes the starting point for a whole new purpose? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I sit down with Heather Christie, author, educator, entrepreneur, and founder of Love Notes, a storytelling movement built around real stories of real love. Heather shares how commuting alone to New York City as a teenager shaped her independence, why she walked away from her creative dreams after marrying young, and how writing helped her rediscover herself after the end of a 30-year marriage. We explore storytelling, resilience, creativity, publishing, relationships, and the power of authentic human connection. You will hear how Heather transformed loneliness into hope through Love Notes, an off-Broadway storytelling series that is now expanding across the country and helping people reconnect with the many forms love can take. Highlights: 01:25 - Learn how early independence shaped Heather's confidence and resilience. 16:03 - Discover why staying true to yourself matters in life and relationships. 19:29 - Hear how heartbreak inspired a search for real love stories. 27:21 - Learn how writing helped Heather reconnect with her creativity. 32:35 - Discover the mindset that helped her push through years of rejection. 47:17 - Hear what Heather believes is at the heart of real love. About the Guest: Heather Christie is a speaker, writer-producer, educator, and the creator of LoveNotes! — Real Stories. Real People. Real Love.®—an Off-Broadway storytelling show that's expanding through satellite productions alongside an award-winning anthology. An award-winning YA author, she wrote What The Valley Knows and The Lying Season, which debuted as an Amazon #1 bestseller in Young Adult Soccer Fiction. Her essays have appeared in Salon, NextTribe, Writer's Digest, Baltimore Style, Scary Mommy, Elephant Journal, The Good Men Project, Grown & Flown, Baltimore Child, Parent.co, Her View From Home, the Erma Bombeck Writers' Workshop, and The Lighter Side of Real Estate. Heather holds a BA in Literary Studies from UT-Dallas and an MFA from Pine Manor College. She is CEO of SocRoc Soccer and an adjunct lecturer at the City University of New York. Ways to connect with Heather: Website: www.LoveNotesWorldwide.com & www.HeatherChristieBooks.com Instagram:@_heatherchristie/lovenotes_worldwideFacebook: @heatherchristiebooks / @LoveNotesWorldwideLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-christie-mfa-4b976049/LoveNotes! AnthologyWhat The Valley Knows (book)The Lying Season (book) About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:06 John, thank you for being here with me on Unstoppable Mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about. If you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hingson.com and download my free ebook, Blinded by Fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them, so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset. Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. Today we get the opportunity and the honor of chatting with Heather Christy, and Heather, Heather is an author. She and her brother have formed a company, so she's clearly an entrepreneur. She's acted, she's a keynote speaker, and I don't know what all we're going to find out in the next hour or so, but definitely an exciting person to get a chance to chat with. So, Heather, welcome to Unstoppable Mindset. We're glad you're here. Speaker 1  01:47 Thank you, Michael. I'm so honored that we're going to have a conversation today. Michael Hingson  01:52 And Heather lives in New York City, she lives in Manhattan, or as we all know it, the city. And before we started this, we were talking about the fact that winter is coming everywhere. Ah, well, what do you do as long as you don't get too much snow back there? Speaker 1  02:11 Yeah, the winters have been pretty mild here the last couple years, so see what happens. Michael Hingson  02:16 Yeah, time will tell. Well, why don't we start? Tell us about the early Heather growing up in some of those things. Speaker 1  02:22 Okay, well, as a young person, I, I wanted to be an actress, and I grew up in a really small rural town, about two hours due west of New York City, in Pennsylvania. It's called the Holy Valley. Michael Hingson  02:37 What town? Speaker 1  02:39 Oh, it's called Oli Oley Valley, it's actually a Michael Hingson  02:42 valley. Okay, Speaker 1  02:43 historic site. And so I had a really interesting sort of upbringing, because I, before it was really in vogue, I was on a work-study program, and I would spend half my day in this small Pennsylvania town, and then I would jump on a bus - it was called the Bieber Bus back then - and drive to New York City on the bus, and that was like two to two and a half hours each way, get off in the, you know, huge metropolis of New York City, go on auditions, go sees, or if I had a booking, I'd do the booking, and then I would jump back on the bus and go all the way back to rural Pennsylvania, and that's how I spent like all my high school years was back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and then I actually graduated early. I graduated halfway through my senior year. I had enough of my credits done that I'd actually, the first half of my senior year, I went to community college, and I took a class in the evenings, so I could be done by Christmas break, and the only requirement I still needed to fulfill was my physical fitness, so I ended up moving to New York City, and then I would take my physical fitness classes at Steps Dance Studio, and then I was still able to graduate with my class in June, but I was living in New York City from January on of what would have been senior year. Yeah, so it was like the early me, and the one thing that was sort of interesting when I was on the work study, my mom was a mathematician, and my dad was a an ER doctor, so they actually tutored me. My mom tutored me in math, and my father tutored me in chemistry. And then, like my history teacher back back in the day, we had Walkmans, and he would record his three lessons on a Walkman, and I would listen to them on the bus back and forth from New York. Michael Hingson  04:43 Yep, Lockmans were the big thing back in time. Sony created a very clever thing, but as with everything, the technology has advanced beyond that. Now Speaker 1  04:58 that's right. Yeah, now my kids. Wouldn't even recognize a Walkman, Michael Hingson  05:02 they wouldn't recognize a cassette either. Speaker 1  05:05 That's right, yeah, it would be like an ancient artifact. Michael Hingson  05:08 What's really strange is there are a lot of people who don't even really know anymore what CDs are. Speaker 1  05:14 That's true, yeah. Michael Hingson  05:16 Much less, well, and DVD is sort of going the same way, it hasn't quite got there, but we, we are new now, moving more into streaming and things like that, but, gee, what a crazy world. Well, so you went through high school, basically commuting to New York. What did your parents think of that? Speaker 1  05:35 Well, I was one of four children, I was the oldest child, and what's remarkable is in the beginning, my mother would go with me, but it was hard to do that, and have you know three other children at home, so by the time I was 15 I was doing it on my own, and when I.. it's just like such a different culture that children are raised in now, there's sort of this idea that we, we can't let them kind of do their own thing, you know, like there's, we're so follow every move and thing they do, but that was like a lot of independence my parents granted me at such a young age, and so they thought, I mean, it was great, and they gave me the support I needed, but at the same time they allowed me to be really independent at a pretty young age. I know when I tell people, "Oh, yeah, I moved to New York City when I was 17 by myself, they're like, "And your parents let you do that? And New York, and this was in the late 80s, early 90s, and New York was like a whole different place, like when I get off the bus at Port Authority back then, like now that whole strip Times Square is kind of sanitized and disified, but back then it was, it was a little rough, Michael Hingson  06:56 it was a lot of X-rated things, and all that, I did some commuting more in the early 90s. I sold products, and I would travel back to New York, because that's where I sold to. I traveled from California, and I remember it was there was a lot of stuff on 42nd Street that was very X-rated, and so on, a lot different than the musical 42nd Street, but that's okay. Speaker 1  07:20 That's right, yeah, Michael Hingson  07:21 but it is a lot, a lot cleaner now than it was, and I remember times I would go out of my hotel and there would be people who would say you really shouldn't be walking around on your own, and why not, and they said, well, because it's pretty dangerous here, and you know, the the angels that that were out there insisted on escorting me everywhere I went, just because they were concerned about me, and I wasn't, although I understand the the situation, but I wasn't going to go in the middle of Central Park at night either, so you know, Speaker 1  07:58 right, and I was a lot the same for me. I remember, though, getting.. I would get off the bus at the Port Authority, for people who know you, New York City, it's on Eighth Avenue, and then I would feel like I wasn't like fully safe until I could get to Lord and Taylor, which was on Sixth Avenue. Yeah, and then it felt like everything got a little bit safer and calmer, the energy changed. Michael Hingson  08:23 Yeah, Speaker 1  08:23 that Michael Hingson  08:24 was a lot different. You could always go to St. Patrick's Cathedral for refuge too. So, but yeah, the Port Authority was an interesting place to go, and I understand. Well, how did.. how did all that affect you, and how did, how does what you did back then kind of affect you in the way you think today, especially with children and so on? Would you give them that same level of independence today? Speaker 1  08:52 That's a really interesting question. And my children are a little older than I was at that time now, but I do think about when they were 15, 1616, years old, and if I'm to answer the question really honestly, I don't know that I would have. I just feel like, and I don't know what's changed about society that makes it that way, that and part of it I think is maybe like the news cycle just is constantly highlighting everything that's wrong and fear based that that's what we see and it's in our faces so much more because we have all this access to it through social media that it it creates sort of this, this like undercurrent in parenting that, that we're, that we're oftentimes afraid, like, what could happen to our children. So, I don't know if I actually would have let them commute like that by themselves, you know? Like, yeah, I don't think I would have. Michael Hingson  09:56 Yeah, it's definitely different now than it was then, and. And I think you're right with especially the news cycle and also in reality there's there's so much gun violence and other stuff going on and I ask people when we talk about it I ask is it really that there's more now or it's just more visible in the news, and I'm not sure that it's just visibility. I think there is more stuff going on, and it's not being stopped nearly as effectively or as aggressively as it should be, and it does make it a scarier world. It's tougher, I think, by far to be a kid now than it was when you were a kid, much less I believe when I was growing up. We just didn't see the kinds of things that we see today, and I don't think it's all just exposure from the news. I think there's there's some truth to the fact that that there are other issues going on, Speaker 1  11:00 right, that it actually is a more dangerous world that we live in. Michael Hingson  11:03 Yeah, and I think that it is something that we do have to think about, and hopefully someday sanity will come back to it all. I agree, I'm of the opinion that eventually it will, but you know, so that's cool. But, but still, we have to do what we do, but I also think that we can't stifle our children, we have to give them the opportunity to grow. It may be that you might, when your children were the age you were, you might have decided, well, one of us just has to go with you all the time, and we're going to just to keep an eye on you, or you have other people that help, but I think being so aggressively smothering that you don't let children grow is a problem too. Speaker 1  11:53 Yeah, I agree. I think that's, I mean, there's that saying, and maybe I'll get it right, or maybe I'll get it wrong here, that we need to give our children roots and wings, Michael Hingson  12:02 yeah, Speaker 1  12:02 and that's the challenge, is to find the balance, Michael Hingson  12:06 yeah. Well, and so for you, you were given a lot of independence. How did that shape kind of your attitude, and how does it shape the way you look at life today? Speaker 1  12:20 Well, that's a really great question, and for all the independence that I had as a young person, and maybe, maybe I was given too much independence in some ways, because I, I ended up marrying very young, and and I often wonder, like, had my parents not given me as much independence, if I would have done that, but yeah, I still think I'm very independent now, and I've tried to instill that in my children as well, and I think they're, they're really great kids, and they've launched really well, which I know is a common problem with today's young adults, is the this sort of inability to to launch, and I, I feel really good. My both my kids have done that and done it well. Michael Hingson  13:15 Well, and all you can do is your best, Speaker 1  13:19 right? Michael Hingson  13:20 I think we don't do this nearly as much as we should, but it ultimately comes down to, you know, kids want all sorts of independence, and so on. Parents are, are.. I'm talking about parents who really think about what they do, they may not want children to have that much independence, but I think the key is that you really need to communicate with your kids and teach them what's going on and why, Speaker 1  13:48 right. I think that's it's to be open and transparent with, with our children is very, and to have like the hard conversations and give them a safe space in which they can speak to Michael Hingson  14:02 the other side of that is that we should hold them to the same standard and say when you have issues and so on, we're here, we're not going to judge you, you need to have the hard conversations with us too. And I don't think we do nearly as much of that. I know when I was growing up, we had a lot of conversations. Of course, I was blind. I've been blind my whole life, and I encountered a lot of different things growing up, and my parents were glad to talk with me about blindness, and glad to talk with me about different things about independence, and it also was true that they allowed me to be independent. I mean, I rode my own bike around the neighborhood, and some other.. I'm not the only blind kid that did that in the world, but in my town I was brand.. and I think that, you know, I'm. Sure, that I was watched, but parents didn't interfere. I mean, I even fell off the bike a couple times until I really learned how to ride it, but they allowed me to have the opportunity to grow, and I think that there is a way to do that without, without, well, without stifling your kids, and that you can, you can let kids grow, and we should really emphasize curiosity a lot more than we do. Speaker 1  15:29 I agree, I think that's really important, is to give kids the space to grow and encourage curiosity. Michael Hingson  15:36 Yeah, we don't probably do that nearly as much as we ought to, well, so you mentioned you got married at 19. Well, I guess that's a little young, but, but you did that, huh? Speaker 1  15:48 I did. Yes, I did. I married young. Michael Hingson  15:54 How did that work out? Speaker 1  15:56 Well, it, it worked out for a little, well, it worked out for a while. I stayed married a really long time, but I eventually divorced 30 years later, and part of that had to do with I was, I did marry young, but my ex-husband also had some addictions that you know in time just became too hard to manage, so that ended the thing, and he Michael Hingson  16:29 wouldn't, and he wouldn't deal with them Speaker 1  16:31 well. At one point, I mean, we'll ask a lot of times in relationship with addicts, you kind of, there are times when they deal with them, and then times when they don't, Michael Hingson  16:39 right? Speaker 1  16:40 Yeah, so ultimately it dissolved. Michael Hingson  16:44 It's too bad when things happen. Speaker 1  16:47 That's right, yeah, but I'm grateful for the the union, because it produced my two great kids. Michael Hingson  16:56 And what, what else did being married for 30 years teach you? Speaker 1  17:01 Well, wow, that's a great question. I think probably it taught me most of all it's a lesson learned, sort of, that you really need to be true to yourself and listen to yourself, because I think deep down we know, and my I was always trying, like, to try harder, if I just try harder, you know, things will get better, but there's part of me deep down that knew I was sort of trying harder for everybody else but myself. And when I left New York, I had given up everything I'd worked on, and in, you know, in hindsight, when I look back, I, it was in a way I sort of abandon all my dreams and hopes, and ultimately I don't think that's a good thing when you give up yourself for someone else. Michael Hingson  17:50 So, after you got married, what did you do? Where did you go? Speaker 1  17:54 Well, my ex-husband was a professional soccer player, so we ended up going around the United States, he played for a couple different teams, and I went to college, and I finished my degree at the University of Texas, and then I, I did a couple things, I was a flight attendant, and I eventually fell into real estate, and worked in real estate for a long, long time, but along the way, I, there was a, there was a point where I kind of really missed that young creative person that I had started out my life as, and I'd always loved books and lacher, and my undergraduate degree was in literary studies, and I started writing stories, and then at midlife went back to graduate school for a master's of fine arts in creative writing, and and started writing. So I was, I was always doing a bunch of things. I was a real estate broker, I was managing a company, and then I was, I was writing, and began writing novels on the side. Michael Hingson  18:58 What was your bachelor's degree in Speaker 1  19:00 literary studies. Michael Hingson  19:02 Oh, okay, Speaker 1  19:03 yeah. Michael Hingson  19:04 So, you never did get degrees in what either of your parents did. Speaker 1  19:09 No, no, no, Michael Hingson  19:10 you weren't that into math. Speaker 1  19:12 No, not at all. No, I always liked words, words. Michael Hingson  19:16 Yeah, I understand. I do pretty well with math, but by the same token, I've been learning more about words, having now written three books, and appreciate it. I also like to collaborate, so when I write, I generally write with someone. I think that the team approach works, at least it does for me, and there are a lot of people who don't use a second person on their team, other than their publishers, editors, and so on, but for me the collaborative way works, which is fine. Speaker 1  19:49 I've had a little bit more experience later now in my creative career, because I've, and maybe we'll talk about this in a little bit, but I've started producing storytelling shows, so I. Work with the storytellers in helping them in their stories, so that's a much more collaborative exercise, and one one I really enjoy. Michael Hingson  20:09 Yeah, well, well, let's, let's, you know, we could talk about it now. What the heck, we don't have to do this in a linear way. Tell me about storytelling. What you think about storytelling. Why is it so important, and so on. Speaker 1  20:25 Well, for me, so the storytelling that I do, I'm working on this project called Love Notes, which real stories by real people about real love, and that came to me during the darkest, loneliest period of my life. It was, you know, after the disillusion of this 30 year marriage, and I was really despondent and, and disillusioned, and thinking, you know, like, does love even exist, and what does it look like, and I just, I just really didn't even believe in love anymore, and being in the storytelling community, I produced some storytelling shows, stories about motherhood. I put out a call to writers and actors and just regular people to share their true love stories, and so from that, people started sending me all these true stories, they had to be 1000 words or fewer, and so to answer your question, like, what does storytelling do in, in this case, I think story, storytelling, it's different than other mediums, like the personal essay or the novel, it's, it's a, it's a testament, it's a first person testament, and what's really great when you see the different storytelling communities around the country is anybody can do it, and so that's part of the beauty of storytelling. Michael Hingson  22:00 I think the key is, though, it has to be a genuine story. Making it up isn't the same thing, Speaker 1  22:06 right? And that's the difference, right? Because people will write a short story or story thing, but in storytelling, you're exactly right, Michael. It needs to be a true story, and that's what makes it so compelling, and I think so relatable, is that people can see themselves in other people's stories, so like in my case it was a way, it was like the evidence, the proof of love, like what it really looks like as it walks around in the world, Michael Hingson  22:36 so that's it, sounds like changed your view of love, and that you believe in love again. I Speaker 1  22:46 do, I do, and it's it, and even like during the first season of Love Notes, because we do an off-Broadway show here in Manhattan, and we have an anthology, a companion anthology. I remember that first year, like some I'd wake up in the morning and just like be not despondent but upset, like, oh, like this doesn't happen. And then literally there was like a little voice in my head that would say, oh well, don't you remember Stacey's story or Sarah's story? And it was like just like the the universe providing this evidence and this this proof and just hearing enough stories and story after story, yeah, it really did fortify my belief in love, and that love is for everyone, and it comes like from all these different angles, and when you least expect it, and it shows up in so many different forms. Michael Hingson  23:43 Yeah, well, and I think there's there's a lot of merit to that. I know when I was writing this last book that I wrote, which is entitled Live Like a Guide Dog: True Stories from a Blind Man and His Dogs, about being brave, overcoming adversity, and moving forward in faith, I spent a lot of time talking about each of the eight guide dogs that I've had and the lessons I learned from them, and also using those lessons in the book to show the importance of different aspects of what happens in our lives, but I have maintained for years I've learned a lot more about life and learned about leadership and teamwork. I've learned a lot more from these dogs than I ever learned from all the experts in the world, and that's primarily because we'll have some interesting observations. One, I allow my dogs to express themselves, but they also learn what the rules are. Because dogs really want to hear from humans, they want humans to set the rules, they want humans to be the pack leaders, by and large, and they want humans to be the ones to say this is what I expect, but when. That relationship forms, and it forms well. There's it's second to none, and you learn so much. Dogs love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally, but they're open to trust, and we're not. And we really should learn to be more open to trust, and just so many different kinds of things. It has really given me a lot of pause to think over the past several years, while we were writing the book, and, and I, and I think about it now. There are a lot of neat stories in there that really ultimately are love stories in one way or another, and I think that makes a lot of sense. Speaker 1  25:36 Oh, that's so.. I'm actually a new dog owner, well, not too new, I.. I'm for the first time in my adult life have a dog, and I just.. it's such a wonderful, like, experience, and it's opened me up to, yeah, like so many different levels of love. Michael Hingson  25:53 Yeah, dogs want to establish a relationship, but as I said, I don't think that they are open to just trusting they do pretty much love unconditionally, unless something just totally traumatizes them. But trusting is a different story, and that's a trust that has to be earned both ways. It's not just us earning their trust, but they're earning our trust, and the people who really take that to heart and develop that relationship and think about it, find that they have a bond that's really second to none. It's as close to knit a team as you could ever find. Speaker 1  26:35 That's beautiful. Michael Hingson  26:37 So, it's a lot of fun. What kind of dog do you have? Speaker 1  26:40 I have, well, because remember I'm in a small New York City. I have a teacup poodle. Michael Hingson  26:46 Oh, so it isn't a Saint Bernard, okay? Speaker 1  26:49 And she's, she's an eye, she's a, she's a character. She, she acts like she's a cross between a teacup and a pit bull when she's in the, when she's out on the street. She does not like she's a scaredy cat on the street. She would prefer to be carried when we're on the street, so she's got sort of a split personality, but she, and she doesn't take too many people. So, just like you were saying, I can identify with that, like the whole trust element, and she's, she only trusts a few people. Michael Hingson  27:25 Yeah, well, trust isn't something that happens overnight. I've maintained for a long time. I think it takes a good year for me when I am meeting a new guide dog. I think it takes a good year for the trust to become so seamless that we really know what each other is thinking, and I think that we really do understand each other. There's a lot of empathy there, Speaker 1  27:52 that's really great. So, Michael Hingson  27:53 I think it's, it is kind of cool. Well, so, but going back to you getting married and all that, so you gave up for a while a lot of your dreams, that that must have, whether it was conscious or not, been a little bit frustrating. Speaker 1  28:08 Yeah, and I didn't realize it at the time. It was only later, like when my younger self sort of came calling, and I had given up a lot for this marriage that didn't really turn out the way I had hoped, and yeah, so writing was a way for me to find myself again, was not only a refuge during that time in my life when I wasn't really happy, but it also really opened up that whole creative part of myself, which felt really good, and it's, you know, it's been something now I've been working on for the last decade and a half, Michael Hingson  28:57 but it sounds like you didn't really, or at least consciously you didn't really know that you were unhappy. Speaker 1  29:03 No, I didn't, and that's a really interesting observation that that you make, because you know, I had my children, I loved my children, and I loved being a mom, and I had a really fulfilling career, but there was something missing, you know, and I wasn't really able to put my finger on that until I started writing, and then it became more and more obvious that, yeah, this is the part that was missing, this, you know, who you had thought you were going to be a creative, you, you had denied that, and you're right, so it wasn't really conscious, but, like, once I sort of, it started to become more noticeable to me, then it sort of came back with a vengeance. Michael Hingson  29:49 How much writing did you do before you got married? Speaker 1  29:53 Before.. well, I really didn't, because I was more in the.. I read a lot. Lot, and, but I was more into that, the acting, so I didn't really, I mean, I would write some really bad poetry, but not anything. I know some writers will say they were writing from the time they were six years old, but I, it didn't come to me till much later. Michael Hingson  30:16 So, what got you started back writing after your marriage ended, what was the trigger that made that happen? Speaker 1  30:25 Writing and the marriage, it was like the last 10 years of, of my marriage, I was writing, and it's, I sort of wrote my, my way out of the marriage in a way, but what was the trigger, and I do remember there wasn't an absolute trigger. I had a friend who had self-published a book. Michael Hingson  30:45 Okay, Speaker 1  30:46 I was like a friend of a friend. And one afternoon, it was a summer afternoon, we were over at her house because she had been hired to go to an elementary school and do a presentation, and so we were brainstorming and about what she could do at this presentation, and I went home from that, and I was like, I felt like so energized again. I was like, wow, well, I could do this, I could write a children's book, and so I sat down, and I wrote this book called Beatrice Bumblebee is busy. I didn't know anything about publishing, and I thought to myself, okay, well, now I'll just write it, and I'll send it to publishers, and I'll get it published. Well, it was promptly rejected by every single publisher, and I knew nothing about the publishing that point, but it was enough of a spark. And then I did start just sort of playing around, and I had this scene in my head of a girl, like a young girl who's been in a car accident, and she's on the side of the road losing consciousness, and she has this terrible secret that she wants to tell her boyfriend, and this, the scene, it was like a dark, wet Pennsylvania night, and it was an autumn, and like, I could see the mist, and so I had written this scene, and I remember giving it to my father, who was a huge reader, and he's like, well, Heather, this is really good. Why don't you keep trying to work on it? And, and so I did, and I love school, so I was like, well, I don't know how to write, like, how can I learn how to write? And then I sort of discovered, oh, well, there's these MFA programs, and so I ended up applying, and and going back to school, and then it was in my MFA program, where I wrote the first draft of my first novel, but yeah, so the actual trigger was a friend who had published a self-published a book, and it really kind of triggered something in me. Michael Hingson  32:38 Whatever happened to Beatrice Bumblebee is busy, Speaker 1  32:41 she is in a drawer, but I do keep.. I have here on my bulletin board. I'll pull it down if we're on camera. I have this little bumblebee, it's like a rhinestone bumblebee that I keep stuck on my bulletin board as just a reminder that the address in my life. Michael Hingson  33:07 Well, are you ever going to publish it? Speaker 1  33:10 Oh, I don't think it's very good, Michael. Michael Hingson  33:12 Okay, well, maybe you should go back and rewrite it, but Speaker 1  33:16 then, and maybe if I have grandchildren someday, maybe I'll, I'll be, yeah, that's kind of interesting that you say that. Maybe I will go back and just look at it. It would be fun to look at it all these years later. Michael Hingson  33:32 Yeah, well, so you got rejected a whole bunch, which is a pretty common story. What did you learn from that? Speaker 1  33:42 Well, and I do, I do talks at different places, and one of the talks I say is I started with the, you know, Calvin Coolidge said most of humanity's problems can be solved with two simple words, press on, and and that's what I learned through the process. My first book was on submission for like 520 weeks before it finally found a publisher, and it was every degree of rejection that you can get when you're publishing, you know, I'm, and for people who understand the publishing hierarchy, you know, the coveted placement is to land a book deal with one of the big five traditional publishers, and then from there it works its way way down, and we had gotten close on some of the big fives and other places where we'd made it to acquisitions, and we finally ended up with a small indie publisher, but it took so long, and it was so soul crushing in a way, and not so much the first book, and the first book I was still like super, super hopeful, and then once it was published, it did go on, and it won the new. National Indy Excellence Award, and I kind of was always thinking of it as a, you know, a stepping stone, a stepping stone, and that the second book would, would land the big publishing deal, and the second book took just as long, and it ended up right back with the same publisher, so the rejection taught me, yeah, that you just need to keep going. I mean, sometimes people hit really easily, or you know, the way the wind's blowing that day, whatever's on trend or top of mind, and, and sometimes it doesn't, but you have to do it because you, you love it, and you're called to do it. Michael Hingson  35:46 When you were getting rejected, did you get any substantive feedback that helped, or do do publishers do much of that? Speaker 1  35:54 Well, actually, I did, especially on my second book, and on the first book, too, it depends how interested they are in the book, and I did have a couple that were pretty interested and gave what's called like an editorial letter, and oftentimes they won't even do that unless you're under contract, but I did have a couple that had liked it enough, so on my second book, especially my agent and I then took that information and did some like hard edits and rewrites, but that's not always the case. I mean, and I have a lot of friends who are also in the business, sometimes you don't get any, any feedback. Michael Hingson  36:39 So now all together, how many books have you written? Speaker 1  36:42 Well, I've written two, and then I've edited and curated the anthology, the Love Notes anthology, Michael Hingson  36:48 right? Speaker 1  36:49 Which, and I've written a small bit of that. Um, yeah, so I'd like to say three books. Michael Hingson  36:54 Are there more books in you? Okay, Speaker 1  36:58 for sure. We have, you know, we'll. well, first, the second, the second Love Notes edition, I'm definitely editing and curating the stories for that, and that's through a small publisher. And then I have been really sort of toying around with, like, what's my next book, and my first two books were young adult romance, mystery, and thriller, and I kind of think I'm done with that genre, so I have talked about an adult, adult fiction, or even a that would go kind of hand in hand with Love Notes, the my story type of book, you know, rebuilding after divorce and being on, you know, what the space that love notes came out of, and going on, you know, hundreds of dates, and what that, that looked like, but that's in a very sort of nebulous state. It Michael Hingson  37:54 will be fun to see what happens. You'll have to keep us all posted, Speaker 1  37:58 yeah, for sure. Michael Hingson  38:00 But you've, you've described your creative journey, your whole creative journey is basically transforming heartbreak into healing. Tell me more about that. Speaker 1  38:14 Yeah, like I touched on earlier, Love Notes came out as sort of this really dark, lonely time in my life. My 30 year marriage had ended. My children had both left for college, and I'd relocated to New York City. So I was living alone for the first time in my adult lifetime. I was 19 years old, and New York can be a really.. for as many people who live here, it can be a really lonely place. I was really, really starting over, and I started dating at midlife, is, you know, it's not for the faint of heart, and I was going on a lot of dates, and just really discouraged by the whole process, and, like, I had sort of mentioned earlier, that's where I kind of was like almost indignant, like you know, I want proof, like show me proof that that love is real, and and that's where this this call to like look for people's love stories came from, so I do say it, it truly came out of a place of of loneliness and darkness, and then hope, though, too. You know, I was hoping I wanted to, I wanted, I wanted the stories to give me proof. I wanted them to be the evidence, and then, and then that sort of became a calling that, well, then I want to share that with other people and give other people hope, and that's been the most gratifying part for me is when somebody like they come to the show and the shows are really great, these storytelling shows, and now I've started to franchise them, so we have them popping up in some other cities, and I've gone around to some of the other cities, in fact, if you have any listeners who. When I produce a love note show, but the audience members, they're like, "Oh, wow, this, this was.. they don't expect it, first of all, coming into it, and everybody walks out feeling good, and that is like so gratifying to me, that, like, you know, in this, in these like divisive times, that they can come to a show, they can recognize part of the human experience, and they can walk out feeling uplifted and Speaker 2  40:25 hopeful, and that some readers, Speaker 1  40:27 you know, in the book do that too, like having read the book, and someone will reach out and say, "Oh, well, that just really gave me hope. So, hope that answers the question a little bit. Michael Hingson  40:40 Does it? Does it? Does get so the two books that you've written are what the Valley Knows and The Lying Season. Tell me more about those. What the interesting titles, to say the least. Speaker 1  40:52 Yeah, okay, so the both books are they're not ones, they're not a sequel and a prequel, but I would call them a series, because they're both in this fictional town of Millington Valley, which is much like the small town I grew up in, the Oley Valley, and it's all set around this high school, so the peripheral characters in the book stay the same, like the English teacher and the principal, but the kids, you know, because kids are only in high school for four years at a time, so different kids kind of like move through both of the books, they're both mysteries or are thrillers, and they both have like a big kind of like moral question at their center, both sent it set in this Millington Valley, which is a small Pennsylvania town, Michael Hingson  41:45 right? And they're, they're for juveniles, primarily. You said, I think, right. Speaker 1  41:52 Well, they are. They'd be considered young adults. What the valley knows, that's told from three point of views: two kids, and then one of the kids' mothers, so it has a lot of crossover appeal. So you and that book originally started at six point of views, and that was when I was in graduate school, and I remember my professor saying to me, Well, Heather, that's that's just too ambitious to try to do for your first book, you need to cut it down, and, and just whoever's story has to be there, that's the point of view you, you include, and so it kind of fell into the young adult category by accident, but I have a lot of adult readers who, who it really resonates as well, Michael Hingson  42:43 yeah. You know, I know a lot of people say, especially the early ones, the Harry Potter books are for more young adults, and so on, but I certainly had no problem enjoying them as a full-fledged, real-life middle-aged adult. So I think there's a lot that we can learn by stretching and not necessarily just falling into the trap of reading one kind or, or one sort of book that's, oh, this is for more adults or this is more for for children. Think there's a lot to be learned all the way around. Speaker 1  43:17 I think you're, you're right, Michael, and that's it's kind of like a modern thing that we do, like classifying books as adult fiction, like when we think about Catcher in the Rye, like what would that be considered now? Because the protagonist is a young adult, would it be considered a young adult book? But yeah, that's a really great point that you're making. Michael Hingson  43:40 Well, so you, you wrote these books, and you said that, so they've been published, and I assume they're out there. Do you know if they're audio books also? Speaker 1  43:52 Well, yes, and but here's the thing, I, because I didn't get to pick the publisher, I mean, the, you know, I didn't get to pick the narrator, so the what they both, okay, so what the bally knows is narrated. Yes, I don't like the narrator's voice. I know that's a terrible thing to say, because I would love for people to go and listen to the audio book, but I don't know, and maybe it's just me. And then the second book the publisher actually used like an AI kind of, I don't know exactly how it works, and I didn't really even know it happened till I went on Amazon one day, I was like, oh, they made an audio book of this, and it was in like an AI voice, so, so the answer is yes. Both of them are on audiobook. Love Notes is not the other bar. Michael Hingson  44:49 It's interesting, I'm on several lists that deal with audio books, and so on, and I hear people talking or. Emailing on the list all the time, and what people have often said is nonfiction books that are not what they're necessarily as much into as fiction books, they don't mind it being an AI voice, but when they're reading good fiction, where they really want to be absorbed, AI and synthetic voices text to speech just doesn't do it, and in fact I buy into that. I agree with that. I don't think that we have yet gotten computer synthesized voices to really take the place of human readers, and I don't know that we ever totally will, because we're so used to what people sound like, but it is an interesting thing that does come up. Speaker 1  45:47 Yeah, I agree with you. Michael Hingson  45:50 So, I prefer human readers in general. I've never been as great a fan of having a synthetic voice. Nothing against computers, but they just don't talk as well as humans do. Speaker 1  46:03 No, I agree with you too. I much prefer the human voice. Michael Hingson  46:09 Well, so you, when did you start writing love notes? When did that really start coming to fruition? Speaker 1  46:17 Well, love notes. We're coming into our third off-Broadway season this Valentine's Day, so it started that would, so it was started in 22 Michael Hingson  46:27 Oh, yeah. Okay, Speaker 1  46:29 so it's a relatively young project. We're going into our third year, but I'm super excited. We just cast the show for this upcoming performance, and that's really exciting. We have, you know, a bunch of local New Yorkers, but then we also have about the cast is 12 members, and six of them are from other parts of the country, so it's, it's got a, you know, flavor from from from all over. Michael Hingson  46:57 Now, is Love Notes available in any way online, or is it strictly just the shows, and they're not recorded and disseminated in any way. The Speaker 1  47:06 the all-star show, which is Valentine's Day at Symphony Space in New York City, the APM show is live streamed. Yeah, so it can be enjoyed from anywhere in the world. Michael Hingson  47:19 Okay, but outside of that one being live streamed, are there recordings of any of the shows that are out there for people to hear? Speaker 1  47:28 There are on my website, actually. Both the 2023 show and the 2024 show are available for resale. I think it's like $15 and you can, you can watch it's like it's a great, like date night kind of thing to watch the Love Notes show. Michael Hingson  47:48 Okay. Well, so from all that you have heard and seen and interacted with in doing Love Notes, how do you define real love today? Speaker 1  48:01 Oh that's it. Oh, Michael Hingson  48:03 that for a question out of left field. Yeah, Speaker 1  48:06 that's a great question. How do I define real love? So, I think real love shows up in a lot of different ways, and it.. and what's interesting in love notes, is I've seen all sorts of examples of it. I've seen the type of real love that ignites people when they're young, you know. Speaker 3  48:31 We'll love Speaker 1  48:31 that's the other thing people will say, "Oh, well, you were too young, that's why it didn't work out. But I don't think that's necessarily true. I think I think a little bit sometimes is luck of the draw, but the I've seen examples of people who met when they were 20 years old, and they've stayed together their entire lives, and that shows up in commitment and the ability to grow up together and to grow and evolve together, so I think real love shows up like that, but I've also seen real love, like the second time around type of love, and that sort of love, where people really need to be able to integrate their past and understand they're both two people carrying bags, and now they're going to carry those bags together, and so that shows up in a different way. Real love, and I've even seen it love showing up for people like in their 80s, third time around, or having never had partnered, and finding a partner very late in life, and that shows up in a whole different way, that's absolutely real too, but I think at the core of all types of real love is one, the ability to both people have to want the relationship, and they have. To be willing to work for the relationship, it's not just like what I want or you want, but it's oftentimes if they can ask the question, like what's the problem, and how is are we a team against the problem, or to be able to solve the problem, and I think that's sort of like the realist type of love that's out there, Michael Hingson  50:26 and I would, would also say it goes back to something we talked about earlier with, with dogs, dogs are are very much open to and do love unconditionally, and when we develop that kind of a relationship, it's as strong as any other kind of relationship that we can develop. When both sides of that relationship sense it and know it, it creates a bond that's, as I said earlier, second to none. Speaker 1  50:58 Yeah, that's a really great way of putting Michael Hingson  51:02 it. I would, I would not want to do anything to betray my guide dog or any of the guide dogs that I've had, but I've learned how to create those teams, and I think that's very important. One thing that that sticks in my mind dealing with dogs is when I lived in Northern California, we were very close to the Marin Humane Society, which is one of the more famous organizations of that type in the world. We were talking to one of the people at the Marin Humane Society one day, and they were talking about the fact that they're growing in class sizes and growing in the number of classes that they have to offer, but what they also point out is that 90% of the training isn't training the dog, it's training the human, which is really true. There's so much that humans don't really work to develop the relationship that they should, and that if they really truly understood it, it would, it would be a whole lot different relationship that they would experience, Speaker 1  52:05 yeah, that's a really nice way of looking at it. Michael Hingson  52:10 Well, so you have love notes that are growing by loops and bounds in a lot of ways, and you have, how many different places are doing the shows now? Speaker 1  52:24 Well, so far we have Indianapolis, Chicago, Redding, Pennsylvania, and then we have another Pennsylvania city, Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and we're in talks right now with Atlanta, Georgia, and Tampa, Florida. Michael Hingson  52:42 Wow, so it's growing, Speaker 1  52:45 it's growing, it's starting to spread. We're starting to spread some love. Michael Hingson  52:51 I get it. What do you think about that? Speaker 1  52:54 I think it's great. Like, I hope I'd love to see one in every city. Such a nice event that really brings the community together. Michael Hingson  53:04 So, how often do the shows run? Is it just like on Valentine's Day, or do they go throughout the whole year? Speaker 1  53:10 It can be any time of year, and it's usually just a one-day event. Sometimes there's multiple shows on one day, but yeah, it's just a one day. Oftentimes the local producer will partner with a local charity, so we try to give back in that way too, and they can choose the charity they want, or, or sometimes they're trying to fund like a scholarship fund, or or something like that. I do encourage that, and and we have like a mastermind group among the producers just trying to support each other as creative entrepreneurs. Michael Hingson  53:46 Well, you're you're seeing a lot of success with it. What kind of surprises have you experienced? This must be kind of a thrill, and a lot of, a lot of surprises for you. Speaker 1  53:58 Well, one of the surprises. well, I'm not surprised by it anymore, but I, I can, I'm certain, always surprised when I have a cast member who, at the very last minute, you know, they've gone through all the rehearsals, all the prep work, all the editing, and then at the very last second they pull out of the show, I've had that happen each show, so now I know how to plan for it, and know how to prepare, you know, producers for it. But yeah, that, that's always surprising to me. Michael Hingson  54:34 It's an adventure, isn't it? Speaker 1  54:35 Sure is. Yeah, gotta sing quickly on your feet. Michael Hingson  54:39 Yeah, you definitely have to do that. Tell us a little bit about Socroc, the company you and your brother formed, and what that's all about. Speaker 1  54:47 Sure, well, my brother was a professional soccer player, and he, when he retired, he moved to Manhattan, thinking he was going to be an actor, and as most actors. Oh, they need a second job to support themselves. Yeah, so became a personal trainer, and he was personal training, and some of his clients got word that he'd been a professional soccer player, and they begged him, they're like, can you teach our kids soccer? So it kind of happened by accident, and just a few balls and cones in Central Park, teaching soccer to little kids, and over the years it's grown and grown and grown and grown. We're in our like 20th year, and so during it was like maybe five years ago, he, it just got out of hand, like it was getting too big, and he needed help, and that was when I had gone through the divorce, and I like explained I'd been in business before, and I wanted a change, so he offered me, you know, a position to come and help him and run, so I run the business side of the soccer, and he runs the soccer side, and we're all throughout Manhattan, we, we do public classes in the parks and playgrounds, and then, like, now in the winter time, we rent space all around the city, and then we also partner with private schools and public schools throughout the city, and we do birthday parties and personal training, and we're starting a kids of all abilities program, and that's that's like our new initiative right now, and and then the spring we're expanding into actually into basketball too, BB Rock, we're calling Michael Hingson  56:29 it. Oh, that's cool. Well, you're doing a lot of different things, you speak, you're an author, you're an educator. We haven't talked about, I guess it's you work with Speaker 1  56:39 SUNY. I teach at the City University of New York, which is part of SUNY, and that work I really love. Yeah, Michael Hingson  56:47 tell, tell me about that. Then, Speaker 1  56:49 so they have an initiative, it's through the Manhattan Educational Opportunity Center, and SUNY provides grants for adult students returning who need to get their high school epilepticy, their GED. So I teach writing the writing section of the GED, and this I - these are the students I like the most, and I've taught at all levels, from freshman comp all the way up to graduate level MFA, and it's the GED adult student that I enjoy the most. So, I'll, when I, when I'm done with you, I actually will zoom up to Harlem, and I'll be teaching GED time tonight. Michael Hingson  57:35 Okay. Well, you're doing all of these different things. How do you keep yourself grounded, and how do you keep the creative juices going? Speaker 1  57:44 Well, that can sometimes be a challenge. Michael Hingson  57:46 I bet, Speaker 1  57:47 but I do. I exercise. That's one thing I really, I love to exercise, and I'm getting better at just taking time for myself, but I also feel like what I do isn't work, like I enjoy what I do, so I always try to bring a sense of gratitude to each day in that way. Michael Hingson  58:13 Yeah, well, and taking time for yourself is is important to do, and and now you have a teacup poodle to share it with, and I'll bet you guys have some interesting conversations. Speaker 1  58:26 Yeah, we sure do. She's a cutie, she's just lying on the little chair right over here. Michael Hingson  58:33 Yeah, my, my dog is over here on his bed, so he, he, he monitors me. Speaker 1  58:41 Yeah, she's been really good, because sometimes when I'm on the Zoom like this, she, she'll start to bark. She doesn't like paying attention to somebody else. Michael Hingson  58:48 Well, one of these days we'll have to end up in Manhattan and come and meet her. Speaker 1  58:54 That sounds Michael Hingson  58:55 be kind of fun. Speaker 1  58:57 That sure would. Michael Hingson  58:58 Well, so tell me, what's next for you? What do you envision going forward from here? Speaker 1  59:04 Well, my hope is actually, I would love, because there have so much fodder now, all these different stories, love stories. My hope is to launch a podcast, a Love Notes podcast that would feature the storyteller and their story, and then I would do an interview of the story behind the story, because people always have questions. They'll hear a story, or they'll read the story, and it's really short. It's like 700 or 1000 words, and they'll always want to know, like, well, what happened to them, or how did that end up. So I envisioned this podcast of love notes, real stories by real people about real love, and that would be like the the meat of it, and then they're at the end of each one, there'd be like a love letter, and people could write love letters that would be shared on the podcast, and tell Michael Hingson  59:55 me, Speaker 1  59:56 you know, like, dear Michael, this is why I love you, and then it would be a. Letter, so that's that's I'd like to see more satellite cities. I'd like to get the next edition of the book out, and then launch the podcast by Trifecta. Michael Hingson  1:00:13 Lots going on, needless to say. Well, if people want to reach out to you, talk about creating their own love notes, or as you said, you'd love to find people who want to help produce in various cities. How do they do that? Speaker 1  1:00:27 Well, probably the easiest thing to do is first, if they just want to learn more about the project in general, would just be to check out the website, and that's at www dot Love Notes worldwide.com and from there, then you can, you can get a hold of me, but I'll give my email address also, it's Heather at Heather Christy, C H R I s t i e books.com so either just hit the website or send me an email directly, and I, yeah, I'd love to talk to anybody who's got a story they want to share, or anyone who's thinking like maybe they'd love to bring a love notes to their community. Michael Hingson  1:01:19 Cool. Well, I hope people will reach out and that you'll get lots of interest from our podcast. It's a, it's a fun thing, and I hope that people will respond. So, all of you out there, email Heather. Speaker 1  1:01:34 That sounds great. And my last little plug: if anybody would love to watch the Love Notes show on January, february 14 for Valentine's Day. You can find that information on the website too. Michael Hingson  1:01:48 What I'm trying to remember, what day of the week february 14 is going to be in 2026 Speaker 1  1:01:53 It's a Michael Hingson  1:01:54 Saturday, great day to Speaker 1  1:01:57 do it. So you can watch it, and actually the live stream will stay live for a week, so if you're not able to watch it that night, you can watch it during the week. Michael Hingson  1:02:05 Oh, cool. Well, I hope people will do that, and I want to thank you for being here. But I want to thank all of you out there for being a part of this today. Heather has had a lot of interesting things to say, and I hope that you'll help her and help yourself by helping her to be more successful. I'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com that's M I C H A E L H I at Accessi B A C C E S S I B e.com We'd love it and would greatly appreciate it if wherever you are listening or watching the podcast, if you'll give us a five star review, but also, or a rating, but also give us a review. We love reviews, we appreciate reviews, and we really value all the people who have done it so far, and we ask that you do it again, or you do it for the first time. So, please let us know what you think by writing reviews. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest, we'd love it if you'd let us know. Heather, you as well. Anyone that you think ought to be a guest on Unstoppable Mindset, we would really love to be introduced. My belief is everyone has stories to tell, so don't be shy. We'd love to hear from you. But Heather, once again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely wonderful. Speaker 1  1:03:26 Thank you so much, Michael. It's been so much fun to talk to you this afternoon. Michael Hingson  1:03:32 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingson, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others each week. I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started, 1:04:24 I.

Links For The Occult Rejectshttps://linktr.ee/theoccultrejectsOccult Research Institutehttps://www.occultresearchinstitute.org/Substackhttps://substack.com/@theoccultrejects?r=7auau0&utm_campaign=profile&utm_medium=profile-pageCash Apphttps://cash.app/$theoccultrejectsVenmo@TheOccultRejectsBuy Me A Coffeebuymeacoffee.com/TheOccultRejectsPatreonhttps://www.patreon.com/TheOccultRejectsPart 1: The Road of RhythmPart 1 focuses on the drum as an ancient technology of altered consciousness. The argument is not that every beat causes trance, or that neuroscience has proven spirits. The stronger argument is that rhythm enters the human organism through hearing, motor prediction, breath, movement, attention, emotion, expectation, culture, and social synchrony. The drum becomes powerful when sound, body, group, ritual frame, and meaning converge. These sources support the archaeology, neuroscience, EEG research, shamanic studies, possession studies, Indigenous and culturally specific drum traditions, ritual theory, placebo and meaning-response research, ceremonial magic, and modern witchcraft material used in the episode.Core Academic and Scientific SourcesHuels, Emma R., Hyoungkyu Kim, UnCheol Lee, Tirsa Bel-Bahar, Ana V. Colmenero, Alexandra Nelson, Stefanie Blain-Moraes, George A. Mashour, and Richard E. Harris. “Neural Correlates of the Shamanic State of Consciousness.” Frontiers in Human Neuroscience 15 (2021): 610466. Use for the strongest modern EEG anchor. This study used high-density EEG with shamanic practitioners and controls during rest, shamanic drumming, and classical music listening. It assessed altered-state reports alongside brain measures such as power, connectivity, signal diversity, and criticality. Use carefully: the study does not prove spirits or show that drumming mechanically causes trance in everyone. It supports the more careful claim that trained practitioners entering shamanic states with drumming show measurable brain-state differences.Gordon, Yoel, Golan Karvat, Noa Dagan, and Ayelet N. Landau. “Neural Tracking at Theta Predicts Drumming-Induced Altered States of Consciousness.” Scientific Reports 16, no. 1 (2026): Article 10204. Use for the strongest updated drumming/theta/neural-tracking source. This study tested drumming at theta, delta, and alpha-rate rhythms while recording EEG, and found that stronger rhythmic neural tracking at theta was linked to stronger altered-experience reports. Use carefully: this does not mean theta equals the spirit world or that one frequency opens a portal. The serious point is that altered experience may depend partly on how strongly the nervous system tracks rhythmic stimulation.Aparicio-Terrés, R., et al. “The Neurobiology of Altered States of Consciousness Induced by Drumming and Other Rhythmic Sound Patterns.” Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, 2025. Use for the newer review literature showing that rhythmic sound is now a serious altered-consciousness research topic. This supports the opening claim that modern academia is examining drumming, rhythmic sound, absorption, relaxation, cognition, and neural activity without reducing the subject to one simple “trance frequency.” The review is especially useful for framing the field as promising but still complex.Neher, Andrew. “Auditory Driving Observed with Scalp Electrodes in Normal Subjects.” Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology 13 (1961): 449–451. Use for the historical bridge between repetitive sound, EEG, auditory driving, and early scientific interest in rhythmic stimulation.Neher, Andrew. “A Physiological Explanation of Unusual Behavior in Ceremonies Involving Drums.” Human Biology 34, no. 2 (1962): 151–160. Use carefully. This is useful as an early attempt to connect ceremonial drumming and physiology, but it should be balanced with Rouget because the “drum simply causes trance” argument is too mechanical.Maurer, R., V. K. Kumar, L. Woodside, and R. J. Pekala. “Phenomenological Experience in Response to Monotonous Drumming and Hypnotizability.” American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis 40, no. 2 (1997): 130–145. Use for monotonous drumming, subjective altered experience, imagery, absorption, and hypnotizability.Maxfield, Melinda C. “Effects of Rhythmic Drumming on EEG and Subjective Experience.” PhD diss., Institute of Transpersonal Psychology, 1990. Use as older supporting context on drumming, EEG, imagery, body-image changes, and subjective altered experience. Do not make this the main scientific proof; use it as background.Nozaradan, Sylvie, Isabelle Peretz, and André Mouraux. “Tagging the Neuronal Entrainment to Beat and Meter.” The Journal of Neuroscience 31, no. 28 (2011): 10234–10240. Use for EEG evidence that the brain can track beat and meter. This supports the claim that the brain does not merely hear rhythm as background sound; it can represent rhythmic structure in measurable ways.Nozaradan, Sylvie. “Exploring How Musical Rhythm Entrains Brain Activity with Electroencephalogram Frequency-Tagging.” Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B 369, no. 1658 (2014). Use as broader rhythm/EEG entrainment support. This helps explain frequency-tagging, beat tracking, meter, neural entrainment, and the measurable relationship between rhythmic structure and brain activity.Thaut, Michael H., Gerald C. McIntosh, and Volker Hoemberg. “Neurobiological Foundations of Neurologic Music Therapy: Rhythmic Entrainment and the Motor System.” Frontiers in Psychology 5 (2015). Use for rhythm as motor-system timing information. This supports the claim that a beat can become bodily instruction, not just sound for the ear. Especially useful when discussing rhythmic auditory stimulation, motor planning, gait, entrainment, and the auditory-motor bridge.Ross, Jessica M., John R. Iversen, and Ramesh Balasubramaniam. “Time Perception for Musical Rhythms: Sensorimotor Perspectives on Entrainment, Simulation, and Prediction.” 2022. Use for rhythm, timing, prediction, sensorimotor entrainment, and the way musical rhythm interacts with time perception.Hove, Michael J., and Jane L. Risen. “It's All in the Timing: Interpersonal Synchrony Increases Affiliation.” Social Cognition 27, no. 6 (2009): 949–960. Use for synchrony and social bonding. This helps support the group-body argument: moving or acting in time with others can increase affiliation.Wiltermuth, Scott S., and Chip Heath. “Synchrony and Cooperation.” Psychological Science 20, no. 1 (2009): 1–5. Use for the claim that synchronized movement can increase cooperation and attachment among participants.Tarr, Bronwyn, Jacques Launay, and Robin I. M. Dunbar. “Music and Social Bonding: ‘Self-Other' Merging and Neurohormonal Mechanisms.” Frontiers in Psychology 5 (2014): 1096. Use for music, synchrony, bonding, endorphin/social mechanisms, and why group rhythm can feel like more than private listening.Fancourt, Daisy, Rosie Perkins, Sara Ascenso, Louise Atkins, Fatima Kilfeather, and Aaron Williamon. “Effects of Group Drumming Interventions on Anxiety, Depression, Social Resilience and Inflammatory Immune Response among Mental Health Service Users.” PLOS ONE 11, no. 3 (2016): e0151136. Use for modern group-drumming research showing psychological and physiological effects, including anxiety, depression, social resilience, wellbeing, and inflammatory immune response. Use carefully: this does not make group drumming a cure-all. It supports the more grounded claim that embodied rhythm and group participation can affect mood, social connection, and body chemistry.Bittman, Barry B., et al. “Composite Effects of Group Drumming Music Therapy on Modulation of Neuroendocrine-Immune Parameters in Normal Subjects.” Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine 7, no. 1 (2001): 38–47. Use as older supporting material on group drumming and neuroendocrine-immune measures. Keep secondary. Fancourt is cleaner for the main script body.Archaeology and Deep History of DrumsLawergren, Bo. “Neolithic Drums in China.” In Music Archaeology in China. 2006. Use for clay drums in Neolithic China and the deep-history claim that drums are not just poetic symbols of antiquity. They appear in the archaeological record as instruments tied to early sound-making, ceremony, and social order.Both, Arnd Adje. “Music Archaeology: Some Methodological and Theoretical Considerations.” Use as general support for why ancient instruments should be treated as ritual and social evidence, not merely decorative objects.Anthropology, Ethnomusicology, Ritual, and TranceRouget, Gilbert. Music and Trance: A Theory of the Relations Between Music and Possession. Translated by Brunhilde Biebuyck. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1985. Essential source. Use for the caution that music does not mechanically or universally cause trance. Rouget helps keep the argument academically serious by emphasizing culture, ritual frame, meaning, and expectation.Becker, Judith. Deep Listeners: MAlso want to remind people about the website, if you're into reading we have tons of information by multiple contributors, and we got t-shirts up on the site if you're interested. Fun fact, the art is all based on the eyeball. A

Eine neue Studie des Instituts der deutschen Wirtschaft zeigt: Die Unzufriedenheit mit der Daseinsvorsorge in Deutschland folgt keiner geografischen Logik – sondern einer politischen. Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther ziehen daraus eine unbequeme Schlussfolgerung.

Unser Gesundheitssystem ist darauf ausgerichtet, Krankheiten zu behandeln, anstatt ihnen vorzubeugen. Dabei könnten durch mehr Prävention jährlich 124.000 Todesfälle in Deutschland vermieden werden. Welche Hürden wir überwinden müssen, um den Wechsel zu einer präventiveren Medizin zu schaffen, darüber sprechen wir in dieser Folge mit Prof. Petra-Maria Schumm-Draeger (Internistin und Endokrinologin), Prof. Uwe Nixdorff (Kardiologie, Internist und Sportmediziner), Prof. Annette Peters (Direktorin des Instituts für Epidemiologie am Helmholtz Zentrum München) und Michael Hübner (Geschäftsbereichsleiter Versorgungsinnovation, Pflege und digitale Versorgung bei der BARMER Krankenkasse). Wir diskutieren auch, was ihr als Patientin oder Patient selbst beitragen könnt, sprechen über die Relevanz der Gendermedizin, psychischer Gesundheit und des Klimawandels für Prävention und wir stellen euch die Ergebnisse der großen FOCUS-Gesundheit-Ärztebefragung unter 8.490 Fachärztinnen und -ärzten zum Thema vor.

Die Forderungen der AfD nach mehr Einfluss auf Hochschulen in den Bundesländern alarmieren Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther. Sie diskutieren, warum akademische Freiheit eine zentrale Voraussetzung für Innovation und Wohlstand ist.

Es ist eine Route, die noch immer offen ist: Über Kasachstan gelangen deutsche Bauteile nach Russland: Chips, Kugellager und andere Produkte, die auch in Waffensystemen eingesetzt werden können. Sanktionen sollten das eigentlich verhindert. Doch Filmemacher Michael Höft zeigt in der ARD Story "Die Russlandroute - Sind die Sanktionen sinnlos?", dass sie umgangen werden können. Im Gespräch mit Anna Engelke erzählt er, wie ihm und seinem Team in Kasachstan stolz sogenannte Dual-Use-Güter präsentiert wurden, die für Russland bestimmt waren. Die EU zeige sich hilflos, sagt Höft. Dabei brauche es nur mehr Kontrollen. Es reiche eben nicht, "sich nur einen Zettel unterschreiben zu lassen", damit solche kriegswichtigen Produkte nicht beim Aggressor Russland landen und am Ende dazu beitragen, dass Menschen in der Ukraine getötet werden.Stefan Niemann beschreibt die widersprüchlichen Entwicklungen im Nahen Osten und in der Golfregion und geht dabei ein auf Waffenstillstände, die keine sind. In der Straße von Hormus beschießen sich US-Streitkräfte und iranische Revolutionsgarden gegenseitig - und jeder gibt der Gegenseite Schuld an der Eskalation. Vom durch US-Präsident Trump großspurig angekündigten "Project Freedom", den Geleitzügen für Handelsschiffe, ist keine Rede mehr. Auch im Süden Libanons und im Norden Israels ist der Waffenstillstand brüchig. Im Angriffskrieg gegen die Ukraine will Russland nun eine Waffenruhe, allerdings nur für zwei Tage anlässlich der Feierlichkeiten zum Jahrestag des Sieges der Sowjetunion gegen Nazi-Deutschland. Der Kreml droht der Ukraine mit schwerer Vergeltung, sollte sie die Siegesparade auf dem Roten Platz für einen Angriff nutzen. Lob und Kritik, alles bitte per Mail an streitkraefte@ndr.de Interview mit dem Filmemacher Michael Höft https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/info/audio-3250380.htmlARD-Story: “Die Russland-Route: Sind die Sanktionen sinnlos?”https://www.ardmediathek.de/film/Y3JpZDovL25kci5kZS80ODc4IDllMWU5MGZhLWI4NzEtNGY3NC05YTFkLTcwNzBhZjU0ZTJjMw 11KM - der tagesschau Podcast: Sanktionen gegen Russland: Geheimer Handel über Kasachstan? https://www.ardsounds.de/episode/urn:ard:episode:6d2769ed098f2aa0/ Podcast-Tipp: Bigger EU - wer kommt als nächstes in den Club?https://www.ardsounds.de/episode/urn:ard:episode:6ad134362c0c7f09/Alle Folgen von “Streitkräfte und Strategien” https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/info/podcast2998.html

Die Bundesregierung plant allein für 2027 rund 196,5 Milliarden Euro Neuverschuldung. Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther warnen: Deutschland fehle die Möglichkeit, aus diesen Schulden wieder herauszuwachsen.

Die Forderung nach einer Rückkehr zur Kernenergie gewinnt politisch wieder an Raum. Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther halten die Debatte für eine Ablenkung – und warnen vor den Folgen für die Energiewende.

What does it really mean to lead without power but still make an impact? I had the chance to speak with Prince Gharios el Chemor, whose life blends royal history, humanitarian work, and a deep commitment to compassion and critical thinking. From his family's legacy in the Middle East to his upbringing in Brazil, Gharios shares how identity, purpose, and service shaped his path. As our conversation unfolds, you will hear how sovereignty today is less about ruling and more about responsibility. We explore education reform, the dangers of social division, and why compassion and critical thinking matter more than ever. Gharios also introduces his vision for the future through Logos One, a new education model designed to help people live with purpose. I believe you will find this episode both thought provoking and inspiring as you consider what it means to truly live with an Unstoppable Mindset. Highlights: 00:01:15 – Hear why titles mean nothing without purpose and service00:08:26 – Learn how identity and adversity shape a global perspective00:24:43 – Understand what sovereignty means in today's world beyond power00:36:43 – Discover how small acts of service can deeply impact lives00:43:31 – Learn why compassion and critical thinking are missing today01:02:04 – Understand what it truly means to live with an unstoppable mindset Bottom of Form About the Guest: HRH Prince Gharios El Chemor of Ghassan is a diplomat, author, artist, and leader recognized internationally as the heir of the Ghassanid Dynasty, the Christian Arab royal house that once ruled much of the Levant. He's a multi-awarded humanitarian on four continents for his work in cultural preservation and minority rights. He played a central role in restoring the House's historical continuity and securing its recognition under international law, including The special consultative status at the United Nations. He was knighted under the authority of the late Pope Francis, holds the U.S. Presidential Lifetime Achievement Award, multiple Congressional honors, and has been welcomed by heads of state, religious leaders, and academic institutions across four continents for his advocacy on behalf of persecuted Christian communities in the Middle East. Beyond diplomacy, Prince Gharios is an award-winning best-selling author of thirty-seven books spanning philosophy, international law, spirituality, governance systems, and martial arts. In 2014, he published the peer-reviewed Middle East: The Secret History, a groundbreaking work that earned him the 21st International Cultural Award Trentino–Abruzzo–Alto Adige (awarded by the Italian government) in the History category. Seven of his works reached number one on Amazon's bestseller list.   Since several of his titles achieved #1 across multiple categories, this actually represents thirteen #1 Best-Seller achievements overall.   His intellectual work includes the development of Skeptical Mysticism, the Law of the Triple Accord, and Neo-Holism, a framework that integrates reason, compassion, and systemic balance to address political and social crises. His works — including The Sovereign Perspective, Essentia, Sapientia, and Unitas — propose an integrated understanding of consciousness, ethics, and identity, bridging ancient wisdom traditions with contemporary science. Trained in acting and filmmaking, as well as holding a master certification in Aikido from the Aikikai Foundation in Japan, Prince Gharios embodies a rare synthesis of scholarship and lived experience. His humanitarian initiatives have provided food, education, and stability to thousands of displaced families throughout the Middle East. Whether in academic forums, interfaith dialogues, or grassroots relief missions, his message remains consistent: the future of humanity depends on restoring proportion, dignity, and truth — both within individuals and the societies they shape. Ways to connect with Prince Gharios: Website: www.PrinceGharios.org/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/gharioselchemor/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/officialprincegharios/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@theroyalherald/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hrhprincegharios X: https://www.x.com/princegharios?lang=en TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@officialprincegharios Documentaries: The Christian Kings of the Middle East https://youtu.be/Xt5NBNGa0q8 The Royal Legacy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUAS2rq8Bt0&t=150s The Project https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TFkZk3qd3c&t=416s About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear, together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Greetings everyone and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. It is fall in Victorville, California, and I guess in the whole northern hemisphere for that matter. So here we are once again, and we're going to have, I think, an interesting and a fun and a very thought provoking episode today, we get to chat with someone whom I never thought I would meet, but I got to meet him on LinkedIn, and then we've met in person, and now we're chatting. And he is a Prince, Prince Gharios el Chemor Chemor. And garrios lives in Los Angeles now, and that's an interesting story in of itself. He has written 37 books more than I've written, I can tell you. And he is involved with a lot of different kinds of activities, and I'm sure that he's going to talk about a lot of those and give us some interesting things to think about. So I'm just going to say, Gharios, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Unless you want me to call you Prince, I'm either, either way. Prince Gharios el Chemor  02:04 Oh, thank you so much. It's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. And I always say that the only person I demand to call me your highness is my wife. But every time I do, she laughs on my face, so I'm thinking about stopping it. Yeah, and what does she call you? She called me Gary. I became Gary. Michael Hingson  02:23 You became Gary? Prince Gharios el Chemor  02:24 Yeah, because my wife is American, so well. Michael Hingson  02:28 But do you call her princess? No, no, oh, okay, you can Prince Gharios el Chemor  02:34 call me any way you want. I'm like, I'm not special, yeah, and I, you know, as I always like to say, you know, a title in a 21st Century from a deposed dynasty is absolutely useless as a as a person of honor, unless you know, you have, like a work like we do, like my family kept this tradition because we have a humanitarian work with the UN we can talk more about that later. But as I always say, princes are not making even street names these days anymore, so I still have to pay for Netflix like everybody else, Michael Hingson  03:18 yeah, but I'll bet you think of your wife as a princess, whether you call her that or not, because, Speaker 1  03:22 oh, she's, she's a queen. She's not Michael Hingson  03:25 even a prince. There you go. See now we're talking Yeah, as it should be. Well, yeah. So I let's start with this whole issue of a deposed dynasty, and little bit about, maybe your background, where you came from, and all that, and we'll go from there, sure. Prince Gharios el Chemor  03:47 Well, there's a, there's a some people are a little bit, you know, as, as Voltaire used to say, Napoleon, also, Churchill, History is written by the victors. So especially in the United States, people don't are not very aware of world history. So is people don't understand how some things work. And even in the Middle East, whereby my family originated. I'm European, from my mother's side, and I have a little like 3% Jewish. I'm British, French, Italian, and in from my father's side, I'm Christian, Arab, from where today is Lebanon. You're a Michael Hingson  04:40 conglomerate all over the place, Prince Gharios el Chemor  04:43 yeah, so I have all the all the conflicts, all the colonizers, the people that are colonized, all within an only person. I'm the, I'm the living un so, but I. Even in the Middle East, you know, because since we are like a Christian family, a Christian dynasty, even that history was, you know, political propaganda. So you're not going to promote your your enemies. So since the Muslim regimes took over our lands through history, so the story they tell is a very limited history. So in a lot of history books, people think that our rule ended in the seventh century. So people say, Well, how come you are claiming a kingdom that ended 14 centuries ago? And I always say, well, first and foremost, we rule other realms after that, even our cousins ruled until 1921, so the like 100 years ago in what today is hail in Saudi Arabia, is called Jabal shumar, Jabal shmor, which is our last name. So they were our Muslim cousins, because some part of the family was forced to convert and but and the family that escaped and went where today is Lebanon kept being Christian, which is my direct family, and the Christian branch rule until 1747, to the 18th century. So it's not like 14 centuries ago. But even if that was the case, according to international law, we have a president, which is Israel. So Israel revived a state that, you know, they didn't hold sovereignty for over 2000 years. So our claim, even if we considered the last kingdom, we have a whole kingdom, because we rule principalities up to that. We rule the Byzantine Empire too, but that was very briefly, but we had like principalities or Sheik dooms, as we call the very same politically, political unit as you have the UAE, as you have Bahrain, as you have Qatar, Kuwait. So is a is as sovereign as an empire, but is a small principality, so that those are the kinds of realms we ruled after we lost the main kingdom in the seventh century, but we we rule, as I said, my direct, direct family into the 18th century, and my cousins until 1921 so yeah, so it's A our claim. Theoretically, if you consider Israel legitimate, you have to consider our claim legitimate, although we don't actively pursue any kind of political restoration or active, you know, restoration of a territory, kingdom, or anything. On the contrary, we support all the duly established governments, the euro and de facto, because we think that there's a lot of people there wanting power, and we don't want to be another force to try to fight for power or anything like that. On the contrary, we want to help to bring balance. We want to serve. We want to help to bring, you know, a stability and dignity to the people we're not interested in political movements or topple any governments or anything like that, although I've been offered many, many times, and thank God, I'm not at all seduced by power, because I it's something that is an illusion, in my opinion. Michael Hingson  09:08 So the family has certainly been spread out. Where were you born? Prince Gharios el Chemor  09:14 Well, I was born and raised in Brazil, because we have, still some family members were able to stay in Lebanon, but there was a huge famine and persecution after my family lost the principality in scarta ze way, which is in the northern Lebanon, My great great great great, great grandfather was assassinated, and then his son had to flee and like, adopt different last names for their children, because the it's funny, because it could be a great movie, because the Sultan, Ottoman Sultan was a hunchback, so it was a perfect. Villain, so the hunchback Sultan wanted to kill all the members of my family, so they were able to hide for some time, but then, when the first war, already in the end of the 18th century, 19th century, it was a great don't know if I can use the word genocide, but it was a genocide of Christians because the Druze, they ally with the Ottomans and to destroy the Christians. And so started this movement in the mid 1800s until the culmination of the First World War, and then my family members and many Lebanese not just my family members, went to Brazil because Brazil is still the largest Catholic country in the world. So today you have in Brazil twice the number of Lebanese people. Then you have in Lebanon. You have around 4 million in Lebanon. You have over 8 million Lebanese in Brazil. And I made fun when I first met the Lebanese president, we had the first audience in 2017 I we just had a Lebanese descendant president in Brazil. So I said, Well, you know, the our Lebanese president has like, twice the number of Lebanese people than than here. So Isn't that ironic and funny? What did he say? No, he was laughing. He said, Yeah, you know. And it was funny because he was actually, his name was Michelle Temer. It was from Lebanese descent. And you have today, I think the Minister of Economy in Brazil is Haddad, which is also Lebanese. Yeah. So everyone has an uncle, a cousin, even in my family, we have a very funny situation, because half of the family of my cousins stayed in Lebanon, and the other half went to Brazil. So you had two brothers from the same father that one doesn't speak Arabic or French and the other doesn't speak Portuguese. So they used to visit each other with their kids and using like cell phones and other things because they they were like brothers and couldn't communicate, because one was born and raised in Brazil, and the other, and still today, like My Arabic is a joke and my cousins make fun of me, so we talk in English, because My Arabic is the Arabic of the 19th century. And again, my grandfather never used the word Lebanon, because there was no Lebanon when he left. Lebanon was created in 1946 so I think it's very interesting when a lot of people say about Palestine, oh, there's no Palestine. There was never a state called Palestine. Well, there's never a state called Lebanon, another state called Syria, and every state called Iraq, another state, any of the states that we have today, the Middle East, they're all created after the first war. So they're all creations by the British and the French. And also, a lot of people don't know that. Michael Hingson  13:34 So what was it like for you growing up? Because however you view it, you have a very rich family and rich ancestry. So what was it like for you growing up? Prince Gharios el Chemor  13:47 Well, it was very interesting because I I had a Lebanese grandmother and I had an Italian grandmother, so that's why I became fat. Thank God now I'm I lost weight, but yeah, I it was funny, because I inherited gout, so I was very sick with gout when I was, like, 27 years old, and I had to take cortisone. And I always tell the story, because I used to go to my Italian grandmother, she looked at me and say, My god, you're so fat. You're so terribly fat. You have to do something about that. But not today. Now eat so. So she was like, you know, I could always start I should always start a diet the next day that I visited her, because when I visited her, I had to eat. So that's how that's that how the dynamic works. But I had a very normal, let's say, upper middle class for. Upbringing, yeah, upbringing. But the thing is, because my father, when my grandfather, arrived in Brazil with his parents, he had, they had nothing. They had they escaped. They had to sell the marble from the palace. We had to bribe the Ottoman soldiers so they were able to escape. So they had, like they grabbed some jewelry and something. So they started from zero in Brazil, but then my grandfather in many Lebanese families started selling things door to door, and they made a fortune. My grandfather made a huge fortune. He had like medication distribution. He represented many laboratories for southern Brazil. And then he had real estate. He became very rich, and my father and my father was born, my grandfather was already very rich, so he had like a playboy upbringing, different than me. And then my father never worked one day in his life. So when I came, my family said, Well, let's not repeat the same mistake that, you know, we made with him. So let's, you know, ration things with him. So I started, well, I started working because I wanted but I started working, working it with 13 years old, and I always I cannot not work because I have a we talk about that I have a cognitive difference than regular people, what People call romantically gifted, which is a very is not as romantic and beautiful as people think is like, is like OCD or something like that, and hyper sensibility and stuff. So I always, I cannot not study something. I cannot not work. So is an obsession that I have. So that's why I wrote so many books. I've done so many things. Michael Hingson  17:24 So what was your job? What kind of work did you do? At 13 Prince Gharios el Chemor  17:29 I worked in a video store, like, like Blockbuster, but was like a small one, because I watched all the movies. So people love to see me recommending the movies and Yeah, and so I always work like, I was like, 1516 I was the marketing director of a magazine, so I was always like, precautious, let's Say, and yeah. So my life was always very normal. I was always blessed. Thank God. I never had any need like I I had. I suffered a lot. I was bullied and I had a because I was different. So people, you know, they because of the way I talked in school, and I was probably the worst soccer player that have ever lived. And so in Brazil, that's the thing. So I was highly bullied. I and but other than that, and of course, because I'm an empath, so, but I never had any, let's say, need of food or anything like that, like I always had a very blessed life. Michael Hingson  19:06 So you went to school in Israel and so on. Did you do college there? Or what did you do for college? Or did you in Brazil? Prince Gharios el Chemor  19:13 Well, I studied two things in Brazil. I studied in a Franciscan school, the regular school, and then for high school, there is a special course in Brazil which is the equivalent of the university for theater, like Dramatic Arts. So I've done that. And then for college, I've done a course that's called Marketing and PR. So I have this two, this two trainings, one in dramatic arts and the other one in a corporate PR. Actually, my course even taught propaganda. So we studied a lot of how states work with Prop. Ghana and things like that, Michael Hingson  20:03 two significantly different departments of study. How did you how did you combine those? Or, how did you justify having two different things, art and marketing, that's pretty different? Prince Gharios el Chemor  20:18 Well, not to me, because I always worked a lot with media. So I'm also a filmmaker and professional actor, a SAG actor. So I'm sag here, and I'm in Brazil. It's called sated. Is the sag equivalent there? I directed a lot of even some commercials and some shows. So to me, that's very they intersect and and I have this artistic side of me that is very obsessive too. So I always have to be painting. I always have to be singing and doing something creative, because that's, that's who I am. And some people don't understand, but people that actually I'm not again, I'm not claiming i i have any special talent or anything like that. I think there are people that think better than me, people that sing better than me, but people that have this, let's say, gift, they, they have a need of putting out their work is not, oh, I skewed to paint or skewed to sing or no, this is the need that you have to manifest this energy that you have inside of you. So I give you an example when when I had had the first flare of gout was because my first wife said that I could no longer paint because of the smell of the oil paint. So I stopped painting. And then I was like, full time, the time, the full free time I had I was exercising and I was swimming, I was I wasn't my the prime, healthy body I could ever had. I had that time, and then I start feeling this small pain, and I it became, what's the what's the term I psychologically, I don't remember now the term, but it became a disease because of I could not channel that energy, psychosomatic, exactly so, because I could not channel that energy for painting. Then I got the gout. Michael Hingson  23:06 So how long was it before you could go back to painting? Prince Gharios el Chemor  23:11 Well, then I discovered that I could. I created a technique that I can make the acrylic paint look as almost as good as the oil and and with significant less smell and mess. So I've been painting with acrylic since then. Michael Hingson  23:36 And you what happened to the gout? Did it basically go away? Prince Gharios el Chemor  23:41 Well, I got significantly bad, and I had to go and have a bariatric surgery, and because I was taking cortisone, like a heroin addict would take heroin. So because I got in this vicious circle of not being able to exercise, gaining weight, eating, being depressed. So I had, almost every two weeks, I have a very bad flare. So I was like, in the beginning, I would go to the doctor for the injections, then my grandfather would come in and give me the injections. And then I learned myself to give myself the injections. They were so frequent that I had to do it myself. But thank God for the past, let's say 18 years, I had probably a couple of flares. They're very mild, and just with oral medication, I was able to I'm cortisone free for like, Michael Hingson  24:44 18 years. That's great, yeah, well, you know, going back to some of the things we talked about earlier, in terms of you, you still identify. With the Royal House that that has not been directly in power, although I I would suspect you'd say that that you and your family do provide influence. But what does sovereignty mean to you in the 21st Century? Basically, when monarchy no longer rules, clearly, you have influence and so on. But what does sovereignty mean to you? Prince Gharios el Chemor  25:28 Yeah, there's there's another thing that people, people don't understand. I'll give you a very, very simple example about my family. My family, even though is not officially sovereign anymore, but my family in Lebanon, they still have a palace in a city called farhatta in northern Lebanon, and non stop be we've been serving the community to the point that when my my predecessor, which was Sheik Antonio's Ashmore, was alive, he passed, unfortunately, prematurely. He was 60 years old in 1970 122, years before I was born, and he would open the doors of the palace, and people go there and ask money for medication, as you know, to send the kids to school. He would, you know, help the community like a ruler would do so because, you know, Lebanon, back then was very poor country, and he was like very, very wealthy. So until today, his sons, my cousins, that are part of the Council of princes of the royal house of Ghassan. They still do that to the community there. So we it's like we never stop, you know, doing the the service that. So who wants to watch our documentary. They can Google it. We have it on YouTube. It's called the royal legacy and the Christian kingdom of the Middle East. You see that, for example, my family provided free water that are still being used by 200,000 people in northern Lebanon for free. So we give free water to 200,000 people 48 villages in Lebanon. So thanks to my family also, dialysis blood dialysis is free for all Lebanese citizens because my cousin bought some machines, and my cousin interact with the president, who was his personal friend back then. So the President made a decree, and today, until today, no one that needs dialysis has to pay so, but my cousin passed two years before I was born and his sons. His oldest son was 15, so he left a lot of businesses for his sons. So they didn't develop the Royal House to the point that in 2008 37 years later, I was the one that took over, and then I got permission from them also, which is, in Arab monarchies, you have something that called baya, so it's like the family agrees who's going to be the next head, the next leader, and they, they give the consent, because in Europe is the succession is primogeniture, like the oldest son or daughter inherits the position. But in the Arab systems is the best qualified person according to the Council of princes, or according to the will of the last hat. In my case, they are so busy. I always say I'm the poor cousin, because they're they're rich, they I'm the one that took over this responsibility, and I have the time. So that's how, how it's done. But sovereignty, as I always say, is is a word like peace and democracy that can mean anything and everything so but unfortunately, people don't understand what it means in international law, and today, according. According to the many conventions, or in the charter of United Nations, every single people has the right called the right of self determination. Is the is a cardinal right is every single people, and that doesn't depend on anything ever is like is a right that every single people have, so is in the 21st Century, is no longer acceptable to have colonialism. Prince Gharios el Chemor  30:32 So all all nations and all peoples have to have this right to to self determination, and I think that's unfortunately we've been having a sometimes that multilateralism and international law are not being very much respected, and we have to make sure that we we work together. Because a lot of people criticize United Nations, and I agree that maybe United Nations has a lot of things to improve, but so as everything else in mankind. So as I always say, when you your car has a flat tire, you don't throw away the car, you fix the tire. So I think it's a lot easier for us to fix the system we have, then get rid of it and go back to barbarism. Michael Hingson  31:26 So given given all of that, and given what your relatives are doing in Lebanon and so on, how do governments view your house and how do they view all of you today. Do they? Do you think there's opposition? Do they appreciate what you're doing, because you're not really trying to seek power as such? That probably helps some. But what? What do governments think of of you and all of you? Prince Gharios el Chemor  31:57 Yeah, well, some people the Lebanese Government, since the next president, we've been working together with them, because they seen the value that we bring. So during the covid through our one voice Foundation, we donated half a million dollars of baby formula. It's like 60 tons of baby formula and recently, amongst other small actions, but recently, this year, we we fed about 5000 people for a whole month. We thought it'd be 3000 but Caritas, which is the logistical organization for the Catholic Church, estimated in 5000 so it was like something around 1000 families, but for a whole month. So together with SOS world and giving hands Germany, we got together and Caritas, of course, which made a distribution so they're they are very like we just last Saturday, we had an intercultural, inter religious event under the patronage of The President General Joseph on so we've been working together with the government in Lebanon, because the President in Lebanon, people might not know, but the President has to be Christian. The Prime Minister has to be Sunni Muslim. The Speaker of the House must be Shia Muslim. Because, believe it or not, with all its problems. Lebanon is the only actual democracy in the Middle East, because all the 18 religions have the exact same rights according to the constitution. So but other regimes, for example, I love Jordan, and I've I lived in Jordan. I had a second residence in Jordan for two years, and we try to implement some educational projects there. Because I have, I have this, I even now have a name now. It's called the royal Gambit. It's, it's a project to prevent the radicalization of teenagers from radical organizations, and there's even a book about it that is also the royal Gambit, which is a better and cheaper way to fight terror than actually just try to fight the effects, not the the reasons, the sources of of the problem. And so I had some problems because of the fact that I'm Christian, because you know who the King Abdullah in Jordan is doing a great job. And the royal family in Jordan is amazing. And I had. Many, many friends from the royal family. But, you know, some people don't understand that, but who also has the power is not the ruler, but the person that put the paper in front of the ruler so the ruler can sign it. So sometimes the ruler has the best of the intentions, but a couple of people try to prevent that, because they don't want you to shine. And I found the same problem with the Catholic Church, too, unfortunately, and I'm Catholic, but a lot of things that I try to implement, and again, I just needed the stamp of the Catholic Church. I didn't ask for anything, and a lot of people, mostly lay men, seem to have the interest of the need to keep existing so they are relevant. And that's very sad. That's very sad because there's a lot of people that are have the best of intentions, that have a lot of holy men in the Catholic Church, like I give you Pope Francis, absolutely, but Cardinal Koch, which is a Swiss Cardinal, it's a dear friend and a great holy man. But you also have people that are not interested. Obviously, I'm not citing names, but people that just want to keep their positions, and they just want to the problems to still exist so they are relevant, because they are the ones giving aspirin to the terminal patient. Can I Oh, go ahead. No, no. Sorry. Michael Hingson  36:39 I was just gonna say, and sometimes you just have to walk very carefully with what you do because of that. Prince Gharios el Chemor  36:46 Oh yeah. I mean, I made a lot of people look bad, because in my ignorance, my naivete, I thought that okay, I have solutions for many problems, so let's solve the problems, right? Yeah. Why? Why should we keep suffering if we can actually solve the problems. But apparently, no they want to keep with the problem. Michael Hingson  37:07 So So you but you do a lot of work with persecuted Christian communities in the Middle East, and especially, you know, persecuted people. What's one moment or one person that really stands out to you from all of that work? Prince Gharios el Chemor  37:25 Well, I think that I have two moments, actually. One was in 2014 that I had this Egyptian boy I went to the school here in Los Angeles to talk about bully, because, as I said, I was bullied when I was a kid, and then this 10 year old boy asked to take a picture with me. He was Egyptian Copt. I have a very good relationship with the Copt Orthodox Church in I met with the Coptic Pope in in Cairo. So he he said, I want to take a picture with you, because you are my prince, because I'm also a Middle Eastern Christian. And that touched my heart. I had to hold very, very tired not to cry in front of him. And I said, Well, you know, if I can inspire one person, I'm happy, and the other person was in Jordan in 2016 because at the height of the Islamic State, this 40 families of Iraq, they escaped to Jordan, and they were being in the Melkite church in Jordan, took them in, and then they called me and said, we have this family. They have no food. They have nothing. They just arrived from Iraq. Said, okay, so I got my people there. We got food for this 40 families. And then I went there, and I met this old lady and and I immediately connect with her. And I said, are you okay? I said, Imagine this old lady having to skate from Iraq all the way here, you know, because they were just killing the Christians. It's ridiculous. And then she said, Yes, I'm fine. I'm being take good care and everything. But the problem is that I have to go because I have a high blood pressure problem. I have to go every day to the hospital, and then I have to stay there for I don't remember, she said, one hour waiting just to take her blood pressure twice a day. And then I said, Oh my God. I looked to my assistant and said, for the love of God, go to the nearest pharmacy and get her blood pressure machine. So. You went there, and, you know, sometimes is not, is not a money, you know, for, for, I don't know, 3050 bucks. I solved the problem and and then I gave it to her, and said, Okay, so from now on, this is for you, for you to take your blood pressure, but you also, if anyone needs you're going to be the guardian of this. So she was so happy. And again, is not just about the food, is not but about people. Must know that you care. I think that's the most important Michael Hingson  40:37 thing, yeah. But it's not about you. It's about it's about them, and the very fact that you do care, and you're not doing it to try to gain a lot of notoriety, is what I'm hearing you say. But rather, you're doing it because it's the right thing to do. Prince Gharios el Chemor  40:53 No, I have to correct you on this. I'm doing it because the feeling that you get. It's yeah. It's worth more than any money or any fame or anything, the feeling that that I got from it right? Knowing that I'm, I'm, I'm making that life a little better, yeah is better than anything I've ever tried. And that's what Michael Hingson  41:19 I'm that's what I'm saying. It's yeah, it's not about you're trying to become a big guy. No, you're doing it because it's the right thing to do and you want to help people, yeah. But I Prince Gharios el Chemor  41:30 get a lot from it too. Michael Hingson  41:33 Sure you do. Sure you do. Prince Gharios el Chemor  41:35 But to me, is, like, the feeling is, is, is amazing, Michael Hingson  41:39 sure, yeah, oh, I, I, I totally appreciate it, because it's the the way I feel. If I can inspire people, if I've been able to help one person, then I think I've done good, and I appreciate exactly what you're saying. Well, you, you work with a lot of different people. You work with presidents, billionaires, you work with scientists, priests, martial artists and so on. What have you learned about the universal desire under all of that? What do they all have in common? Prince Gharios el Chemor  42:14 Well, there is this beautiful poem that Elvis used to date when he he used to sing that song, welcome out of my shoes. And he used to say to every student that then shoot or saw things through his eyes, shouldn't watch it. Helpless. Hands well hard inside he dies. So help your brother along the way, no matter where it starts, because the same God that made you made him too, this man with broken hearts. So to me, I think it doesn't matter. That's another part of the poem that I don't remember. Like they may be kings, they might be beggars. We are all figuring things out. That, to me, is the most important thing we we have some might know a little better, some less better, but we are all figuring things out. Figuring things out. We are not special. We are special. We have a special thing about every single person we have. Every single person has something good and something special and some unique thing. But we are not better than anybody in terms of dignity and value. We are all the same, and we are all figuring things out. So when you see someone, you don't you don't know the battle that that's that person is going through. You don't know the suffering that that's that person is is going through. And that's why I say compassion is so important. We have to try to put ourselves in someone's place and and critical thinking and compassion, the two things that are missing in the Michael Hingson  44:04 world, in my opinion, yeah, tell me more about that. Yeah. Prince Gharios el Chemor  44:09 Well, we because of this, this thing called social media, which has great benefits too. We got together because of it, but unfortunately, give rise to some cognitive biases that we already have in one side and also gets us that that heard anonymity you know, when we are in a group or when we are Anonymous, we seem to do things that we wouldn't do otherwise if we were present and alone. There's a lot of psychological studies about it. So. We are living in times that we have this destructive zero sum division. And as I always say, is perfectly and healthy, perfectly fine and healthy to disagree, to have different opinions, as long as we are constructive about it. Let's say in politics. So you know, left and right and center is all fine if we think the way we want to think, as long as first, that idea comes from ourselves and not from some celebrity or politician that we like or dislike, but from our own critical thinking. And second, we have to realize that we're all on the same boat, a country, a state, a city is a community is a boat. So is, is not because you don't like the captain, that you're going to cheer for that boat to sink because you're going to die too. So we have to realize these things. We have to realize that we have to end this thing us against them in everything, in politics, in religion, in everything, because that's not going to get us anywhere. That's That's this destroying the critical thinking and destroying the compassion, and therefore everything become a zero sum, like you know, in order for me to succeed, you have to be destroyed, and that only leads to destruction. And unfortunately, social media is a catalyst to that. Michael Hingson  46:32 How do we do that? How do we we regain or get more compassion? How do we get people to think more critically and and, well, don't try to just do everything for themselves. Yeah, one thing Prince Gharios el Chemor  46:44 that people don't realize is that our brain was built, was hardwired to survive, not to be happy. So we evolved a lot technologically, but our brain is still from the caveman times in a and not just the brain like everything else, why we get gain weight? Because our body thinks we're still back in those times that we have food once a week, and then if we don't have food for many days. We have to storage the energy, otherwise we're going to die. So the same with something called tribalism. So we are trained, our mind is trained, to see everything that is different as as the enemy. So we have this natural neurological tendency of of of that. And then we have, of course, all the cognitive biases, and the greatest one is, as I always say, stupidity, which is not ignorance. We are all ignorant about something. It's impossible to know everything about everything. Stupidity is our resistance, emotional resistance to expertise and knowledge and education. So that's one of the main things, is laziness of thinking. So why would you lose time considering who God is, who's your relationship with the divine? If you can go once a week to a church, I don't see anything wrong in going to the church, please. But what I'm saying is some people go to the church because there they can get, like, a synthesized summary, and they just, it's easy, if they just take that and believe in that. Then they keep thinking the whole week about who God is, what's right and rights wrong, about religion and about ethics and moral and things like that. And the same with politics. Why should I try to understand politics? To try to understand what is a common good? If I can just look one politician that I like and just go for everything he says and and that's the problem. That's why in the social media, again, is a catalyst of that. Because you, you can be, you can insult, you can criticize you, you. We have another thing called the Dunning Kroger syndrome, which is, we think that the things that we know the least are we have. We have more security in the things that we know the least than the things that we actually know. Right? Yeah, so you put that, put it all together. We have confirmation biases because this algorithm in all social medias, they only bring you things that you to confirm what you already think. They realize what are your preferences, and then they just bring you the confirmation bias so you only hear one side of the story. Michael Hingson  49:59 How do we change. Change that mindset. Prince Gharios el Chemor  50:01 Oh, we have to. We have to break the cycle. We have to develop compassion. First. We have to to realize that that person might not look like you, might not like the same things as you, might not believe in the same things as you. But is a is is someone that you have to live with that person. You don't have to agree, but you have to live in the best possible way. Michael Hingson  50:26 But again, the issue is that there is a lot of that on it. I hear what you're saying, but how do we break that cycle? How do we change the mindset so that more people will start to learn that just because we're all different, it doesn't mean that we're all less capable or less than than ourselves. Prince Gharios el Chemor  50:47 Yeah, well, first we have to identify the stupidity. Where is this stupidity? Are we? Is a very hard process, but we have to see if our opinion is actually our own first and foremost, think, think yourself is your opinion is, I have an exercise for that which is a contemplation. So you try to, to meditate, uh, imagining a conflict that you have, and then you remember your own position in this conflict. Then you you go and you try to put yourself in the shoes of the person against you, why that person has those concepts, those ideas, those opinions. And then you try to go out and see both of you, and try to see without any dogs on the fight. You try to see the same, same conflict. You see it from at least three different perspectives. To understand it, Michael Hingson  51:52 we've got to start teaching those concepts to people, because all too many people have children. They don't bring them up any differently. They they don't, they don't look at a broader perspective and horizon. And that's and I hear that's what you're suggesting. But we've got to start. We've got to find ways to teach Prince Gharios el Chemor  52:10 that the best way is education. That's why I created logos, one which is a new educational system. Tell us about that? Yeah, well, because I was gifted, you know, a lot of gifted people have problems in school, because when you have like, a very deep giftness, you cannot conform with the with the system, with the mainstream system. So I can only thrive if I create my own systems. So that's why I developed a whole new system of philosophy, original. I completed Aristotle Plato's work. I refuted Machiavelli sprints. I completed some of Kant's works too, because I I have to create my own frameworks. And then I said, Well, you know, 95% of what I learned in school is useless. You're not going to never going to use it. You're never going to remember it. So why do you waste the most valuable asset we have, which is time. You know, not even Elon Musk can buy time, because time is nothing you can do to get more. So why do we basically throw away time in school in a time that we have our beautiful youth. And so why do we do that? And then I realized that, well, the actual things that you have, you really have to know you can learn in two years, which is basic math, basic history, language, you know, all these things in two years, you can learn that. So I created a system that is based on your vocation and your level. So since a child goes to goes to kindergarten, the child starts being tested by vocation and the level and everything. So this child is taken to there's one of 15 traits that can be combined to 30 point 5 billion different profiles. So today you go to school, you have only one profile. You have to follow that profile, right? So with my system, you can combine it and have 30 point 5 billion different profiles. So if you have more tendency to be an artist, you're going to be an artist. If you have a vocation and desire to be an engineer, you're going to put all your energy. All your all your time to do what you like, to do what you're born to do. I like to say that logos one was created for the child that they cannot stand still because they supposed to dance. So if you don't conform, if you don't sit still, if you don't do whatever the teacher tells you to do, you are a bad student. And that doesn't mean you're a bad student, because you're supposed to be the world's greatest dancer or the world's greatest painter, so or the world's greatest engineer if you are not good in sports. So the system we have now was created for the industrial revolution. So the world needed factory workers, people that conform and with AI, all bets are off. So my system integrates with AI, and it's self regulated and self improved by AI. So there's a book out also. It's called logos one, and that's the future of education. You're not going to be able to because, you know, we're going to have a huge change in professions. So probably the child that is in a first grade today, the profession of that child doesn't even exist yet. So I'm sure, because a lot of the depression and mental problems we have today and suffering that we have today in our society is because we have to work to make ends meet. We have to work to put food on a table, and that makes us work in things that are not very nice and are things that we are not happy to to work. And working is probably you spend most of your like life working, so you're going to be miserable if you are doing something you don't like or you're not born to do. So that's why we have all this, Prince Gharios el Chemor  57:11 this problems in the world. So with my system, people will be happy because they will be doing what they are meant to do they love to do. And they have, as I always say, we're going to have one Einstein in each corner, because we give the tools of this that person to be what that person was born to be. Michael Hingson  57:30 Has logos? One been implemented anywhere yet? Prince Gharios el Chemor  57:33 No, no. I would just formulated this year. I had this idea for 15, almost 20 years ago, and I finally put everything together. So now we are going out to get it to be implemented. Michael Hingson  57:49 You've written 37 books. Is there any kind of a common theme or thread that goes through all the books? Prince Gharios el Chemor  57:55 Yeah, actually, they're all part of the same ecosystem, let's say so, because I see everything is inter related. For example, I created a I formulated a universal law that's called the triple accord, which everything in the world is the result of a resonance between reason, empathy and compassion. So critical thinking, compassion and balance, measured by balance. So a government, a civilization, a relationship, a friendship, everything is measured by these three elements. So with that, I developed what's called New holism, which is a model of governance, a brand new, completely new system of political system, which I always say is not left, center, right is forward. And a new way of seeing politics, a new way of seeing transcending ideology. So the same thing with the skeptical mysticism, which is a brand new epistemology, brand new metaphysics, which finally got science and reason. I'm sorry, reason and faith together. I created a new it's called juice Vera, which is a new legal system and a new penal system. I created, as I said, the Royal Gambit. I create logos one and Magnus delta, which is the higher education continuation of logos one. I mean, everything I created, I wrote about, is either related to history, sovereignty, politics, philosophy, which to me, is everything together. And I also brought the. Eastern and Western philosophy together, because I studied a lot of Buddhism, Aikido, Japanese, Shinto, Zen, Buddhism. So I brought that with the Western philosophy. And so my system is a balance between both, because I found out that everything has to be in balance otherwise the system destroys itself. Michael Hingson  1:00:26 If you could transmit one sentence or say one thing to humanity that would be remembered in 200 years, what would it be? Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:00:36 Well, I always, I always think that. I think as James, James Sherman, that said that, and I always like to repeat it. It's we cannot go back and make a new start, but every moment we have the chance to make a new ending, it doesn't matter how old you are. Doesn't matter how you think your life is not good, but you can always make a new win. You can always change, even if it's so hard, you can always make it better. It's up to you, you know, Michael Hingson  1:01:16 and it really is. It is up to each of us, and if we want to make the world better place, we can do it, but it's up to us to do it, isn't it, Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:01:26 absolutely and remember that the person, not just a person, but all the animals, all the planes, all the environment, we are all part of the same. The Science already proven that we're all part we share the same frequency. So you know, tried everyone with kindness. There's another saying that says that kindness doesn't cost anything, and buys everything, buys you everything. So be kind to an animal, to a plant, be kind to a person. Be kind, be kind. Be kind, be kind. It's never going it's never too much, Michael Hingson  1:02:03 and be kind to yourself too. Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:02:05 Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's the first person you have to love yourself before learning to love other other people. And again, back to what I said in the beginning. We're all figuring things out. Don't, don't feel bad because you are figuring things out. Because we are. All are in different levels, but we all are, yeah, Michael Hingson  1:02:23 well, this has absolutely been, I think, very thought provoking, and I think it's been been wonderful. Last question for you, how do you define unstoppable? What do you think unstoppable means? Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:02:38 Well, in my opinion, unstoppable is that that thing that makes you, that drive inside of you, that that you know, despite of everything, everything can go against you, but you still manage to, like Nelson Mandela said, something is impossible until it's done. That's what I think is unstoppable, like you keep moving, because, you know, the universe is in constant movement. There's a breath that the Japanese would call koku ryuku, so we always breathing. So you have to keep moving. You have to keep moving. Nothing stays static is good. Michael Hingson  1:03:27 One of the things that immediately comes to mind is that there was a guy named Roger Banister. He is the person who broke the four minute mile. And people said for years before he did it, no one can physically run faster than a mile in four minutes, and if you do, you'll die. That worked until, I think it was 1957 when he did it. And yeah, there's so many the Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:03:51 same with the car, the same with the car. Remember? Yeah, yeah. People thought that if the car went more than 35 miles an hour, or something like that, it will explode. Michael Hingson  1:04:01 Yeah, yep. Well, I want to thank you again for being here. I think you've given us lots to think about. If people want to reach out to you and learn more about what you do and so on. How do they do that? Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:04:13 They can visit my website. It's Prince gharios.org's Can you spell that? Yeah, Prince, like you say it and, G, H, A, R, i, o, s.org, altogether.org, Prince darius.org, okay, yeah, and yeah, or Google, me. I have social media, I have Instagram, I have Facebook, I'll be happy to LinkedIn. Michael Hingson  1:04:43 I know LinkedIn, Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:04:45 yes, how we got together, Speaker 2  1:04:47 yes, how we got Yeah, yeah. Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:04:49 So YouTube again, you Google, you go to YouTube. Is our channel is called Royal Herald. You can watch documentary about what we do. It's called the. Legacy and the Christian kings of the Middle East. So both have history. You can watch the royal legacy, and you get both the history and what we are doing now. So it's free. You don't have to do anything. You just go on YouTube. Is everything we do is free. Michael Hingson  1:05:19 Great. Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for watching and listening today, wherever you are, please give us a five star rating and give us a great review. I think that garrios has given us a lot to think about today, and I hope that you all agree with that. I'd love to hear your thoughts as well. Feel free to email me at Michael H, i@accessibe.com that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and garos for you and all of you listening, if you know anyone else who you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, please introduce us. We'd love to hear from you and from them, and we're always looking for more people to have come on so that we can show that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are. But again, Prince garrios, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely wonderful. Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:06:15 Thank you. My brothers. Was my pleasure, and I'm always here whatever you need Michael Hingson  1:06:23 thank you for being here with me on unstoppable mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about if you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hingson.com and download my free ebook, blinded by fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset you.

Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther sind sich einig: Die Maßnahmen der Bundesregierung zur Bekämpfung des Ölpreisschocks sind weder zielgenau noch geeignet. Dabei gäbe es in ihren Augen sinnvolle Alternativen.

Die Bundesregierung erlaubt Preiserhöhungen an Tankstellen nur noch einmal täglich um 12 Uhr und senkt die Mineralölsteuer um 17 Cent pro Liter für zwei Monate. Michael Hüther, Präsident des Instituts der deutschen Wirtschaft (IW), lehnt beide Maßnahmen ab. Von WDR 5.

What happens when you trust your talent before anyone else does? I had the pleasure of speaking with Spider Saloff, a jazz vocalist and performer whose journey shows what it means to truly create your own path. From secretly rehearsing as a teenager to performing for the Gershwin family and building a career in jazz and cabaret, Spider shares how taking risks, following curiosity, and trusting your instincts can open unexpected doors. We also explore her resilience through personal challenges, including overcoming an abusive relationship and rebuilding her life from nothing. You will hear how music, creativity, and lifelong learning became her anchors, and why choosing your own direction can lead to a life that is both meaningful and unstoppable. Highlights: 00:10 – Discover how a passion for music at a young age can shape an entire life path 02:04 – Learn how early opportunities and saying yes can open unexpected doors 10:00 – Understand why creating your own opportunities can redefine your career 16:20 – Hear how taking bold action led to a life-changing connection with the Gershwin family 30:00 – Discover how one decision can completely change where your life and career unfold 44:44 – Learn what it takes to break free from hardship and rebuild your life with resilience Bottom of Form About the Guest: What does it take to build a lasting career in music and performance? Spider Saloff has done exactly that, earning recognition as a multi-award-winning vocalist and entertainer known for her powerful voice, wide range, and captivating stage presence. Born in Philadelphia and raised in New Jersey, she began her journey in theater at a young age, studying acting at Rowan University and the University of London. Her early career in musical theater included more than 25 major roles, but everything shifted when she discovered her passion for jazz. That move led her to work with top musicians, gain critical acclaim, and begin touring both nationally and internationally. Over time, Spider became one of the most respected interpreters of the American Songbook, known for blending deep emotion with humor in her performances. Her connection with the Gershwin family helped launch signature shows like her tribute to George Gershwin, which has been performed around the world. She has also created tributes to icons like Cole Porter and Irving Berlin, performed at major venues and festivals globally, and hosted the syndicated radio series Words and Music. Beyond the stage, she is a teacher, writer, and creator who helps others find their unique voice, continuing to inspire audiences and students alike through a career built on passion, creativity, and authenticity. Ways to connect with Spider: Website: https://spidersaloff.com LinkTree: https://linktr.ee/spiderjazz Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/spidie.saloff Twitter (@spidersaloff): https://x.com/spidersaloff?s=21&t=XIFFgGFn7E5Hd_8J8Rexfg Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/6gKiYyeoZyxZTAI2EpGWbU?si=WudPV-CUQPmMThTtV508Og YouTube (@TheMartinicat): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTLI-Gd51JdcMT0FVvvD9lA YouTube, “When You See Me”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTbO1FWrje4 Instagram (@spider.jazz): https://www.instagram.com/spider.jazz/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear, together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi everyone, and I want to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset, and we have an unstoppable mindseted, oriented sort of person today. Spider Saloff. Spider is a vocalist. She's a comedian. She is in Chicago, as I recall, but she has been to a variety of places. She is a very highly acclaimed vocalist, a singer. She sings and deals with a lot of the songs that I like, like the Great American Songbook, Gershwin, Irving, Berlin and other things like that. And she has a lot of accolades that come from any number of famous people who you've probably heard of. And so in the course of the next hour or so, I'm sure we're going to hear about a bunch of that. But for now, spider, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad Spider Saloff  01:49 you're here. Well, I'm happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Michael Hingson  01:53 Well, you are, you are most welcome. So how did you get into doing, acting, singing and all the other things that you do. Spider Saloff  02:04 Well, it started when I was a kid. I always loved music, and you know, it was so in love with the arts. But when I was 14, I came home and told my parents that I could get them tickets to the high school variety show. And they said, What? And I told them, I'm in it. I'm going to be in it. And they said, well, doing what? And I said, singing. And they were they were shocked, and I didn't tell them. I used to rehearse at my girlfriend's home because her family was all over it. They thought I was wonderful, and I knew my family would tell me that I couldn't do it so because it's just too foreign and too scary to them. So I ended up performing at this variety show, and my my parents were absolutely shocked, and one thing led to another. And then I met a theater director who worked at my school, and he came, he was a professional guy from New York that they hired to come in to do a musical, and I was in it. And I ended up getting the opportunity to be in a summer stock company and my parents let me go, which was amazing. I think they were just relieved to get me out of the house for the summer, but whatever it takes, but I certainly learned a lot, and I was very young for that experience, but it was, it was so, so worth it. And then after I finished high school, I went to college for theater. Now, your parents are from Russia. Oh, no, no, no, no, they're descend. My father's descendants are from Russia. That's where the name is from. But they are, I think I am about 11 different nationalities. So it's we're real much we are real much of the world. Well, there you go, yeah. Michael Hingson  04:05 So now we need to just clone that combination, since obviously you sing, well, we need to get that in other people, just just, you know, just a thought, you know, Spider Saloff  04:16 sounds good. Sounds dangerous to me. Michael Hingson  04:18 Actually, I know it's either that or we're gonna Spider Saloff  04:21 have to get more, more of one than more than one of Michael Hingson  04:24 me, more than one spider? No, we can't have that. Well, either that or we get AI to to imitate you. But we don't want to do we don't want to do that either, scary stuff. 04:35 Yeah, yeah, it is. Michael Hingson  04:36 Well, so how did you encounter and come up with the name spider. Spider Saloff  04:44 I did not choose it. I, you know, I never thought that my real name made any sense from the time I was a child, it's, I'm like, that doesn't make sense. And then I got the nickname when I was in college, because I have, I'm. Really a small person, but I have very long arms and legs, and it was a nickname, and it just stuck with me. And then finally I surrendered to it as a professional name, and people don't forget it. They may not like me, but they don't forget the name. And then it just stuck. And it's been that way ever since, how could Michael Hingson  05:20 somebody not like you? Spider Saloff  05:23 Well, I don't know. I'm sure there's somebody out there. I would love to thank everyone. Just endorse me, but Michael Hingson  05:31 we'll see. Well, yeah, I mean, it'll all go so where did you go to college? Spider Saloff  05:37 I went to a college that doesn't exist anymore, actually, now it is Rowan University. It's in New Jersey, outside of Philadelphia, and it became Rowan University when it got the largest private donation in history. But it was a state college called Glassboro State College, and it was a fine arts school at the time. There were several of my friends, including the conductor for the Lion King and Broadway people, all went to school there, and now it has no arts program at all. But part of our program, I did get to study at University of London too. So that was really exceptional. And it was so wonderful, a wonderful school, great opportunity. You know, it's, it was outside of Philadelphia, close to New York, and now it's an engineering school. For the most part. There isn't, there are no fine arts there at all. Well, that's too bad. But, well, yeah, I know, but somebody's got to do the engineering, Michael Hingson  06:39 I guess. I Well, there's truth to that too. Now, have you seen THE LION KING LIVE on Broadway? I have Spider Saloff  06:46 never seen it, and it's never seen it. I gotta see it. I've got to see it. I it just never happened. I kept intending to go and I never saw it. And I know people that played for it as well. 06:59 You've seen the movie. No, you haven't seen the movie Spider Saloff  07:02 either, anything Lion King. My goodness, I know I better. That's one of my goals. By the end of the year, let me see if I can see it. Michael Hingson  07:10 Well, I'll tell you my lion king story. A my brother in law knew someone who knew some of the actors in Lion King, and he and his wife and their little girl, who at the time was like three or four, were coming through New Jersey, where we lived in Westfield, and we all arranged to go see The Lion King. It was a Wednesday afternoon. It was a matinee, and near the beginning when scar, the bad guy meets the hyenas, who he works with, they all come on, they come on stage and they're growling and all sorts of things like that. Well, in the theater, the hyenas come from the back of the theater, down the stairs, and they walk past everyone growling and making all these noises? Well, my wife was in a wheelchair her whole life. She was a t3 paraplegic, and when one of the hyenas came up next to her, because we were able to arrange for an accessible seat, which was right on the aisle, this hyena comes up right next to her and goes, you've never seen a woman who is totally paralyzed suddenly literally jump up and almost walk out of the theater. It was amazing. She he shocked her completely. But it was so much fun. And of course, Alanya, the little girl, was just there with these big, huge eyes over all of this. But what Karen, my wife, told me later was that what was interesting about it was that when she was obviously watching all of this, and she said, You got totally used to the the puppets being the animals they were. They didn't you. They didn't even look like puppets anymore. They were just the animals. Spider Saloff  09:05 And that's exactly what I've heard about it, that it's like, it was fascinating. You're completely swept away with it. Michael Hingson  09:10 Yeah, wow. So, so it's cool, but, yeah, you gotta, you gotta go see The Lion King. It is absolutely worth it. The music is wonderful and all that. Wow. So we got to see it on Broadway, which was cool. Well, so you, so you went to college, and then what did you do? Spider Saloff  09:32 Well, when I got out of college, I, you know, was doing theater, but I ended up in musicals because I sang, and I really my training, my formal training, really is acting. I did not train as a singer. I just started singing naturally when I was a teenager, and then I just did a ton of musicals. I was in musicals like forever and but. I always loved jazz, and that was always in my back pocket. And then at one point, I really decided I wanted to pursue jazz while it was still in musical theater, because it was getting harder and harder to get roles, because they wanted, this is in the late 80s. They wanted you to be a dancer as well, and that was not going to happen for me. So I really thought, you know, I just, I want to check out the whole nightclub scene, you know, in Cabaret, where you could produce your own show. And so I started to really pick the minds of the guys in the pit band. And I talked to all these pit musicians, and they would tell me about, you know, places to go, and how they there were guys I met there that introduced me to other people, that helped me to do my first demo, and then started working in clubs. And then that really changed everything for me. Michael Hingson  11:01 So you got very much involved in doing a lot of Spider Saloff  11:04 jazz, yeah, jazz and cabaret, and it was all small clubs. But then that was what got me major press attention. And then I started touring with a show that I co wrote with a guy named Ricky ritzel, who's from New York, and we did a show called 1938 and that was my first recording as well. And then then just kept going from there, and that's how a lot of things happened, was really just deciding to do my own thing and create my own world of performance. So you're also Michael Hingson  11:45 known for doing something related in one way or another to comedy? Spider Saloff  11:50 Well, yeah, I've always done comedic roles, and I can't say I have ever done stand up, but I may be getting close to it, I'm not sure, but I always involve a lot of comedic monologs in everything I do. Like, if you see me at a jazz club, I will tell stories. And, you know, it's part of, part of who I am, is a lot of the comedy stuff. And, you know, crazy stories and telling stories about people, and, you know, doing imitations of people that I've met over the years and that kind of stuff. So it's, it is part of my whole persona on stage. Michael Hingson  12:33 What's your favorite musical that you've done? Boy, it's probably a toughy. Spider Saloff  12:40 I did so many, I have to say, Guys and Dolls. Okay, guys and dolls. I was Adelaide and Guys and Dolls, one of the best roles I've ever done. It was really a good choice for me, and and I, and I have to say I was in what, four productions of Fiddler on the Roof, and I've been two seidels, one Hava and fru masera, so but I love that show. I think it's magical. Michael Hingson  13:21 Just it is. Have you ever been in numb? I like Guys and Dolls, but my favorite, and it's just been that way for a long time. I don't know why was the music? Man, were you ever in the music? Spider Saloff  13:32 Man, I was, but there's no, there's no role in that for me. But I was one of the pick a little ladies. Oh, it is one of my favorite shows. Though, I think it's a masterpiece. I love love love music, man. I think it's just brilliant. Michael Hingson  13:48 You don't think you could have done you? Lily capecni shim you know, Spider Saloff  13:53 I was too young to do it at the time. Michael Hingson  13:54 Yeah. Well, like always, now there's always Marion, Spider Saloff  14:00 no, I don't have the soprano chops for that. They let me do it in Sutton Foster's keys. Well, I was thrilled that they took it down for her, because I could actually do it in those keys. That would be great. Michael Hingson  14:16 I saw it a couple of times on Broadway. Now I'm blanking out on the person it was in. Well, we saw it in, like, 2002 1001 and I'm trying to remember I'm blanking out on the person who played Marion. She actually ended up getting Lou Gehrig's disease and passed away. Spider Saloff  14:43 I don't know who. I don't know, which Michael Hingson  14:45 totally shocked us. Spider Saloff  14:46 I'm drawing a blank, I don't know. Michael Hingson  14:48 Yeah, I'm blanking out on her name. I may think of it, but, Oh, forgive us. She did a she did a great, a great job. But, yeah, but there's nobody like Robert Preston to play Harold Hill. And. Spider Saloff  15:00 Anyway, oh, that movie is so beautiful. I love that movie. Yeah, music, man is brilliant. It really is brilliant. Well, that Michael Hingson  15:10 goes back to, you know, Mr. Mr. Meredith. Meredith Wilson, Spider Saloff  15:18 yes, and I read, I read his book. Have you ever do you know of his book called he doesn't know the territory? Michael Hingson  15:27 No, I'll have to see if I Spider Saloff  15:28 can find writing and production of music. Man, I love, love. Love that book. And it's about all the trials of getting it produced and how he did. They did one of the opening one of the readings when they were trying to raise the money to do it. And moss Hart. Moss and Kitty Hart were there, and they hated it so much they walked out the middle of it. Opening Night, moss Hart was there, and he he saw, he saw Meredith Wilson in the lobby, and he shook his hand, and he said, he said, Great show. But you know what, you still haven't licked that book. Oh gosh, because he was an outsider. I mean, he wasn't part of the Broadway team. And no, the fact that he actually played with a John Philip Sousa, like, what, yeah, couch or something. It was real deal. Like, real real, like, old timey marching band stuff. Michael Hingson  16:35 Yeah, amazing. Well, then he also did The Unsinkable Molly Spider Saloff  16:39 Brown, yes, yes, another great show, yeah, not produced very often. But no, Michael Hingson  16:45 no, it's not. It's, it's sort of sad. Oh, well. But you, you've been very much involved with with a lot of jazz and so on. Tell us about meeting the Gershwin family and and your your involvement with Gershwin, which, you Spider Saloff  17:01 know, he, of course, magical. It was. It was truly a life changing event for me, my partner and I, Ricky ritzel And I had been doing 1938 and then we decided to write this show that was called Porgy and Bess, a cabaret concert, oh boy. And it was in New York, and a very powerful guy from ASCAP came to see it, and Michael kirker, and he came to see it, and he said, this show is brilliant. He goes, but you guys are going to get shut down by the Gershwin family, so you need to call them and see if they'll give you permission. So I had the phone number for Leopold godowsky, the third who is the nephew of George and Ira. His mother is Frankie Gershwin, who was George and IRA's younger sister, and I was a wreck. My hands were shaking, and I called him on the phone and and he was very polite. He just had this incredibly mannered guy, you know, it was really lovely. He goes, Well, you know, I don't see that we could allow Porgy and Bess be performed in a night club, and it wasn't like we were doing the show. We were just right. We were telling a story about how it was written and then just performing the songs as separate entities, but they were enfolding into the story. So I said, Would you would you want to comment? Would you want to see it? If we put it on a videotape, and he goes, Oh, I don't know. He goes, let me think about it. So then I called him back right away. I had the nerve to call him back again. I said, Well, would you come to see the show. He said, you know, what would you and your partner be willing to come and perform it at my home in Connecticut? There you go. And I'm like, What? What? So this whole thing got put together, and we went up to the Gershwins home in Connecticut. We met Leopold and his fabulous wife, Elaine, and they had, they said, we're having, we're having 40 close friends here for dinner. They were cooking dinner themselves, and it was this magical house in Connecticut. They had 40 industry people there. It was crazy. I mean, there were all these famous people there, and we were, we did like, as he called it, a 30 minute musicale. We did highlights from the show in their living room by the great. End piano, and I believe the piano had belonged to George, because Leopold is classical pianist as well. So we did the show, and then we all had dinner, and this friendship started. So what evolved was they, they did, let us do the show, but then my relationship continued with them, and when the Gershwin Centennial started in 1996 it was Iris 100th birthday, two years before George's. In 98 I became part of the centennial presentation, so I got to tour with my Gershwin concert under their brand, and also record my Gershwin album with their brand on it. And it was the beginning of a beautiful friendship. And it was, it was a huge, you know, a huge mark in my career, and it opened a lot of doors for me. So wonderful, wonderful people. Michael Hingson  21:03 One of my favorite pieces of all times. Calling it a piece is probably not totally accurate. It's bigger than that, but one of my favorite things from classical music has always been Rhapsody in Blue. And I don't know why, but the very first time I heard it, I loved it, and I've enjoyed it ever since. I've heard the Boston Pops do it, you know, and and others do it. It's just one of those neat things I've just always loved. Spider Saloff  21:30 I'm getting chills just talking about it, because that was so groundbreaking at the time when Paul Whiteman had the contest right of who was going to be able to cross the borders of jazz and classical. And you know, who else was in that contest was Aaron Copland, oh my gosh, Eric Copeland, and he was always in competition with Gershwin, yeah, and Gershwin won and musically, that that changed the whole concept of jazz, I mean, to be accepted in a classical arena. It was really remarkable. What that what that piece did, like, amazing. Michael Hingson  22:18 I actually heard once the Paul Whiteman arrangement of Rhapsody in Blue was performed by a group I don't even recall where, but it was outside. It was a little different, but it still was just so neat to hear this. Spider Saloff  22:36 The first person to hear it, yep. I mean, Paul, my Paul Whiteman was incredible, though. I mean, what a what a groundbreaking person. He was artistically, right? Michael Hingson  22:48 Yeah, he, he did some amazing things, Spider Saloff  22:51 yeah, yeah, you know what I've got to mention. And I hope this doesn't make make our interview too dated. But last night, I saw the movie Blue Moon. That is about about Larry Hart. Oh, my God, I haven't seen that. I'm gonna have to. It just came out last week. Oh, okay, it's not gonna be very often. It's absolutely gorgeous, and Ethan Hawk plays Larry Hart. It it's it's beautiful and funny and heartbreaking, and it all the whole premise is Larry Hart has to go to opening night of Oklahoma, oh gosh, and how painful it is, and this whole cathartic thing he's going through. So the bulk of the entire it's more like, like a theater piece. The whole thing takes place at the bar at Sardi's when he's talking to the bartender and waiting for for Rogers and Hammerstein to show up. And it's, ah, Wowza, it's brilliant. It's brilliant. And talk about, I don't know how they ever got that produced, because it's definitely a movie that's not going to appeal to everybody, but boy, is it brilliant. Michael Hingson  24:14 Wow. Well, hopefully it will come out in some place where I can can watch it up here, and that'll be cool, yeah, Spider Saloff  24:22 and I think it's probably going to go to streaming pretty soon, I'm sure, yeah. So you'll have a lot of opportunities. But I really was happy to go to the theater and see it. But wow, and people in the audience were laughing at all the jokes they were getting, all the sly, Sly comments of Larry Hart, like, wow, witty, witty, witty, just brilliant, just brilliant. Michael Hingson  24:51 Well, your whole Gershwin relationship, obviously, is pretty significant. You even did some Gershwin concert. In Russia, Spider Saloff  25:02 yes, yes. That was why I went to Russia. They were having a Gershwin Centennial in St Petersburg in 1998 because that is the, that is the origins of the Gershwin family. They are from St Petersburg. And so I was hired with my pianist to go to St Petersburg. And do we? Did we were there for seven days, and I think we did like five concerts, and it was amazing to be there, because this was when Russia was getting good. This was, like the good part, and still was scary. It was scary. We stayed in this really creepy hotel that was like a government hotel, and the rooms were bugged. And then when the hallways there were padded walls, like where they could pull these panels out, and there was all kinds of wiring in there, bugging and strange stuff. The concert hall was absolutely magical. It was an old concert hall, and people went crazy, and when I sang the song vodka, which is an oddity, by Gershwin, by way, herbert stothard, Otto Harbach, Oscar Hammerstein and George Gershwin wrote this crazy song called vodka. And when I did the song, people stood on their chairs and screamed, the Russians just loved, loved, loved the concert, the audiences couldn't have been better, and the people that ran the organization couldn't have been weirder. It was, it was very strange. And when we went to leave, the guy that booked us and me and my pianist, they they took our passports, and we had to go to a little room where they said that we our visas were expired and and we had to pay money to get out of there, and they were mad at the guy that was our manager, because he sassed them. And anyway, we had to wait. We were afraid we're going to miss the plane. And then finally, they came out with, like a little, a little tape from an adding machine, and they, they said, you have to pay $58.23 American. So they charged us this $58 and we paid it and ran to get on the plane and and I'm like, I was never so scared in my life. I didn't know what they were going to do, but it was an experience, and it was thrilling and beautiful. But don't think I'm going back to Russia, not in the near term. Yeah. Oh, and then that's when all these people said, my name is sell off. You are my cousin. I come home with you like there were so many people with my name, because in this country, there aren't that many. Aren't that many sell offs. My family is pretty small, and occasionally I'll meet us a sell off. But they're usually, they're usually rabbis, or it's like there aren't that many of us out there, but it was, it was an amazing experience. Loved it. Michael Hingson  28:28 Now, did you when you were over there, sing any of the songs or anything in Russian, or did that matter? Spider Saloff  28:34 Oh no, oh no, let's didn't do that, huh? I'm not. No, I, you know, I'm good at doing accents, and sometimes I will learn to say, like I would learn a little bit of French to get by, but then they would start asking me questions, and I didn't know what they were saying, and then they thought I was just being a jerk, you know, I'm pretending I don't understand them or something. But it was, No, I don't speak. I can barely handle English, but I didn't know whether you might have Michael Hingson  29:05 tried to learn one of the songs just for fun. Spider Saloff  29:08 There wasn't time. This went together so fast. I think we only had, like, two weeks notice. They had rushed the visas and, you know, we had, we had passports in order, but it was a lot of legal red tape. Michael Hingson  29:25 But that's why it cost $58.33 to get out. I don't know, very crazy one of those things. Oh, yeah. Well, well, at least it was affordable. Spider Saloff  29:41 Well, it will, and it was exciting. I mean, everything was paid for. But, oh, this was another weird thing they paid. They paid us in cash, American dollars, and I needed to hide, I had to hide it in my boot. I put it in. Hide the soul of my boot when I'm okay, wow, yeah, it was, it was creepy all the way down the line. It was very strange. Oh, well, yeah, things happen. 30:11 Things happen. Yeah, I was, Spider Saloff  30:12 I'm very, very, very fortunate that I got, got to do it, yeah? Michael Hingson  30:19 So obviously a wonderful memory. And yeah, oh yeah, one of those things that you'll you'll always treasure. You bet. Well, so when did you move to Chicago? Spider Saloff  30:32 Oh, well, when? When I started to get get my feet wet in New York, in the nightclub scene and the jazz scene, I got some really fabulous reviews, including the New York Times. And there was a guy from Chicago who I met through the great Julie Wilson, and his name was Bill Allen, and he was partners with Bobby Short, and he opened this really crazy club in Chicago, very famous, called the Gold Star sardine bar. And both Liza Minnelli had played there the Basie band. He squeezed the Basie band in there, but it was this tiny little place right in downtown Chicago, and it was really wild. And a lot of people had played there. Tony Bennett had played there, and Liza and I kind of was courting the room. I kept talking to him. He had he had found my press kit. Think he had been sent three different press kits, and we don't know which one he opened, and he called me, and we kept this ongoing conversation about coming out to do performance there, and then finally, he decided to bring me out for New Year's Eve, and my husband and I flew out, and it was just we were we had a couple of friends here in Chicago that we visited, but we didn't know anybody here. I'd never been to Chicago, you know, but it was magical. And then he said, Well, I'm going to have you back. I'm going to have you back. And then I didn't hear from him. And finally, the following September, he asked if I could come and play for a month, and I had almost no warning, because he was very impulsive and really crazy. So he asked me to come out for a month, and I did. They put me up in a hotel, and I played with the musicians. Were magical. People were so great. And so I played for a month, and then he said, you know, what would you think about about moving here? And my husband and I were both excited about it. Then we didn't hear anything from him. And then right after So, the first week of February the following year, he calls me up and said, Could you move here? And I'm like, I guess so. Why he goes, Well, I'll book you here for a year, and we'll arrange to get an apartment. And can you start like next week? Oh, gosh, ah, so I did it. I came out, and then my husband came out. We took a sublet on an apartment right downtown in Chicago, sight unseen. We moved here with our cat, and the rest was history. I ended up having the best nobody has a gig for a year, yeah, and and hired partially by the only person that had a gig forever, who was Bobby Short. So because I had met Bobby Short in New York, and he kind of gave bill the okay, you know, he liked me. And then I, I met Tony Bennett there, and Liza interrupted my show one night and crawled on to the over the balcony, onto the stage. And it was magical. There were lines around the block and and I got, I was courted by the press in Chicago like you wouldn't believe. I mean, it was magical. So when my run was up there, I started working at other clubs, and also I started touring at concert tours of my shows, like the Gershwin show, and started to tour. So it just became another life for me. But I'm, I'm in Chicago forever. As far as I'm concerned. I adore it here. I just love it. Michael Hingson  34:45 So when did you move there? Spider Saloff  34:47 The beginning of 92 Michael Hingson  34:49 Okay, all right, so when Liza, when Liza invaded the stage? Did you guys sing together? Spider Saloff  34:55 No, this is what happened. I had met Liza. Yeah, well, I was still living in New York, and I was friends with Billy Stritch, who was liza's musical director. So he was a friend of mine, and he introduced me to Liza, and because she was he was conducting a bit that big show she did at Radio City Music Hall that was a tribute to Vincent Minnelli. Right? She did this spectacular show at Radio City, and Billy was musical directing, and that's when they really became partners. And he introduced me to Liza, and she was just a doll, one of the nicest, coolest people in show business. So I met her, and she was really kind to me, very friendly, very sweet. And so they were playing at the Chicago theater. Liza was doing her one woman show, and it was closing this particular Saturday that I was at the Gold Star, and I had sent Billy a note to to, you know, come by when they're we're done. So I'm doing the second set. And then crazy Bill Allen at the break. He goes, he goes, Okay, people are going to come in here. Joe Pesci is going to come in and and he's going to come up and meet you. And I'm like, Joe Pesci. Joe Pesci was doing a movie here, and his double, his gangster double, used to come in and see me at the gold star. So anyway, the break comes, I'm on stage, and all of a sudden the door opens, and they come in, and it's, it was Billy and Liza and Joe Pesci. And Joe Pesci comes up on stage with Billy and my band kind of crawls off the stage, because by now, there are, there's about, I don't know, 200 people packed in a 70 person room, and their people are coming out of the woodwork. They're like, sitting on top of the bar, and I can't even get off the stage. And Joe Pesci. Pesci leans down, he's like, hey, hey, honey, my my double. He thinks you're great. He goes, Yeah, we're gonna do some songs now. And I'm like, okay, so I sat there, and Billy came up and played. The bass player was there with them. Joe Pesci got up and sang. He was adorable. And then Liza is sitting right by this. They called it the opera box. There was a big, like private table that was right next to the stage. She crawls over the bar onto the stage, and people are just screaming. It was absolutely nuts. And she did like three songs, and she was losing her voice. She had just done a killer thing at the Chicago theater, and she was really, like, raspy. Did it anyway? And she ended with New York, New York, and people were like, screaming. It was just bonkers. It was bonkers. And so that's what the Gold Star was like. It was just a crazy place, and you didn't know who was going to come in the door, who was going to interrupt your show? You just, you just didn't know. Michael Hingson  38:24 Yeah. And they even had the Count Basie orchestra there, and that was, how'd they fit him? How'd they Spider Saloff  38:30 fit him in? Couldn't fit them. It was like a publicity stunt, yeah, and the band was all stuffed in there, and there were a few people that could get in the room, but people were standing in the hallway to hear Pacey pants. This is way before my time. Yeah, it was like in the early 80s, when they opened and they were way crazier then, then when, when I came, Michael Hingson  38:53 you settled them down. Did Spider Saloff  38:55 you No? No, but they, they, they, well, I was there for a year, and then the following year, I went back a few times on Saturdays, and then Bill told Jeremy Conn and I that we were going to be the regular actor because they were always on the verge of closing. They wouldn't have any liquor, and somebody would be coming in the back door with liquor because they didn't pay their liquor bill. And it was, he was in a lawsuit. And anyway, they told us that he goes, Yeah, yeah. Call me on Tuesday and we're gonna we're getting all the details straight. Now. You guys are going to be regular. Here Tuesday came and there were chains on the door. Oh, gosh. And that was the end of it. It ended, and it was a magical time, but there were a lot of problems, a lot of legal problems going on. Michael Hingson  39:50 I met Liza Minnelli once. That was the second or third time I was interviewed by Larry King, and she was now. She was going to perform on the show as well, but it was after September 11, and so I got, I got to meet her, and that was about it, but I did get to meet her, which was fun. Exciting. It was fun. How exciting. And every time we walked out after the interviews, there were lots of photographers outside. Everyone was taking pictures, and we had to put up with all that, but I guess it provided a lot of visibility, but it was kind of fun to be able to do that. Spider Saloff  40:34 How cool. I never met Larry King. I knew a lot of people were on his show. But well, how exciting that you did it twice? Michael Hingson  40:43 Well, actually we there were five interviews with Larry. The first one was right after September 11. It was on the 14th. And then there was another one. There was either one or two more. I think there was one more in November of 2001 and then on the anniversary, in 2002 was the third. But there there were five altogether, and during one of them, and I think it was the one on the anniversary or in 2002 but I have to go back and see if I can research it. But anyway, Hillary, Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer were, were there? Lisa Beamer, Todd Beamer, his wife Todd's the guy who said, let's roll on flight 93 when they took over the plane again and got it in a crash in Shanksville. Wow, and and Queen. Nor was there. So who I'm sorry, Queen nor from? Who is the queen of Jordan? Oh, wow. And she and she and Roselle had a thing for a while. Roselle was my guide dog at the time, so they visited. It was kind of fun. Oh, wow. But, yeah, it was, it was interesting. But as I say, then we, we did meet Liza briefly, and that was kind of fun. She said she's Spider Saloff  42:09 a doll, yeah, doll. Oh, yeah. What a great person, yeah. Michael Hingson  42:13 Well, so I was looking at all the things that you sent me, and I noticed Tony Bennett. I got to meet Tony Bennett once we were on Regis and Kelly live in November of 2001 and I was sitting there, and I heard that Tony Bennett was going to be on the show. And suddenly he comes over and he says, Hey, I'm Tony Bennett. Good to meet you. I've heard about you. So we chatted for a while, and he and Roselle had a thing too, and he and Roselle had a thing too. Spider Saloff  42:45 So that was good. Oh, that Roselle. Oh, but yeah, I met him at the Gold Star, and he because he had played there several times, you know, as a future act. And he was doing, he was in. He was in town to do something. Maybe it was at the Chicago theater as well, but he came in, hanging out in his in his white dinner jacket, absolutely charming. And he sat down and talked to me between sets. It's like talking to your uncle, like he's like, Yeah, what do you think of this weather here in Chicago, and it was like just the friendliest, most laid back, cool guy and and I've seen him perform several times. I adored him. Michael Hingson  43:32 I regret I never got to see him live other than hearing him do, other than hearing him on regents and Kelly, he did a New York state of mind. Spider Saloff  43:41 Oh, cool. Very cool, Michael Hingson  43:43 wow, very soft spoken guy. But when he can sing, he can he could Bell it, Bell it out, Spider Saloff  43:49 and he and he sang the same forever, like, that's my my idols are. I want to sound the same forever, and I have the two, the two, the two most remarkable preserved voices were Ella Fitzgerald and Mel Tormey, both of them, they had chops forever like that. They they were just very, very careful and smart about the way they use their voices. Michael Hingson  44:18 Yeah. Johnny Mathis lasted a long time. I don't know what he sounds like. Spider Saloff  44:24 He just sounded the same forever. Yeah, killer, woo hoo, wow. And I never got to see him live, but I know people that did, and I mean, not that long ago, and they were blown away. Like, just Yeah, killer, yep, Michael Hingson  44:43 amazing, another amazing guy. Well, so have you ever had any any real kind of challenges and sort of negative things that have happened to you in your life? You've obviously been very successful. And all that. But, you know, unstoppability oftentimes happens when you have a challenge. Spider Saloff  45:05 Oh yes, well, you know, small things, challenges. I mean, like the worst, though, was when I was very young, a young actress, I got swept away by a guy that was a director. He was 10 years older than me, and I ended up in a really terrible abusive relationship for years, and didn't know how to get out, and I did. I ended up doing a six part. I have a YouTube channel, and this was two years ago. I did a six part series called learning to love you, and it was the very subject of what happens in abusive relationships and why people stay and why they are convinced that they can't live without the person. They're convinced that they're powerless. They are told they have to depend on this person, and they're very afraid. And I I was so lucky to break away from there and get out. And when I got out. I mean, I this guy completely left me with no money, no home, no job, and I was so ashamed to tell my family. I didn't tell them till months after it had happened, and I went, you know, trying to get trying to get more work as an actress. I worked as a bartender in a comedy club, and I did that's what I had a lot of comedian friends because of that era, and my friends, and eventually my family, really helped me to get out of it. But I had to get I had to be independent through the whole thing, I my first place I ever I was homeless for six months, and I would go around on busses going between wherever and Atlantic City because the casinos were there. So I could get a free ride to Atlantic City and then get a free bus back to New York. I could get a bus back to Philadelphia. I could go around on these busses and just stay at people's houses a couple of nights a week, and not having a place to live, it was horrible. So when I finally moved somewhere, I moved in with an actor friend of mine who had just got out of his abusive relationship, and I slept on the floor of an attic for like, the first six months that I was living on my own, and I was so grateful to have that floor and and I just kept saying every night before I went To bed, it it gets better from here. It's going up, it's going up, and it did. It did. It was it's remarkable. It's remarkable. Michael Hingson  48:09 What? What did you learn from that relationship? Spider Saloff  48:14 Beware of predators. I really never, never lose sight that you're the person in charge. Yeah, you are the person in charge of your life, and you're the only one that's allowed to do that. And you don't, you don't bend to anybody that's asking you to do anything too far. You just, you have to be very skeptical about, you know, who's getting close to you? And I was married long after that, I was married to my husband, and he passed away, oh, 16 years ago, and but there's been, there's been a lot of strange loss and and trauma. But I I am blessed with resilience, and I have to say, the thing that keeps me steady music, music and beauty and art can carry me through anything, and I'm surrounded by that and the best, best, best friends in the world. Oh, man, and my family and my friends are amazing, and I'm very, very fortunate, very fortunate. Michael Hingson  49:32 How long were you married? Before he passed away, Spider Saloff  49:35 we would have been married 17 years. Oh, my wife, Michael Hingson  49:41 my wife. My wife and I were married 40 years. She passed away in November of 2022 lot. Well. Thank you. I appreciate that. And I I always say when I when I tell that to anybody that she's watching from somewhere, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it, so I don't even. Chase the girls. I also point out that they're not chasing me, so it's okay, but, but, but, you know, so many wonderful memories after 40 years, and people say, Well, are you going to move on? And I say, No, I'll never move on. I'll move forward, but I won't move on. I don't want to forget, but I'll move forward. Spider Saloff  50:20 That's an interesting twist of words there. Yeah, no. I mean, I have moved my life has become, actually, way, way better since my husband passed. I was dealing with a lot, and he was, he was dealing with severe mental illness, and it was very it was very hard near the end, my life is beautiful now. And I, I'm just, I feel like everything is new all the time. And I, I don't really have any close relationships, in romantic relationships. I tried a couple since he passed, but I don't, I don't think I'm good at it. I do better on my own. I'm much better on my own. Michael Hingson  51:18 Yeah, yeah. I know what I know what you mean. And as I said, it'll be three years in two weeks for me and I, when we got married, we had both lived alone. And when she was when she passed, it wasn't totally all of a sudden. So I I had some time to prepare. But it it has worked out pretty well. And so now I have a dog and a cat who keep me honest. The cat especially, oh, we have a cat. Her name is stitch, and she likes to be petted while she eats, and she'll yell at me until I come and pet her while she's eating and what. And when I travel somewhere to speak and I come home, I hear about it for quite a while. How could I ever do that? But she's not left alone. You know, I've got somebody who comes in. She has to give me what for? Well, she does. That's her obligation. Just ask her, absolutely, yeah. And how come you took that dog with you and not me? It's a guide dog. Spider Saloff  52:20 So this is not fair, yeah. Michael Hingson  52:24 Well, the other side of it is, I don't want her to ever get the idea that she can go out of the house. She She developed, on her own, a fear of going outside we she went out into our garage once when we first moved in here, and I kept calling her, she wouldn't come in, so I turned the lights off and I closed the door, and 10 seconds later, she's at the door wanting in, and so she doesn't try to go out. So I really feel blessed that she Spider Saloff  52:49 Yeah, that's good, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a cat that never wanted to go near the door either, because he had been an alley cat. Everything outside that door was the alley going back there. Yeah, he also was a, he was a big fat house cat. Like, just wanted to lay around and luxuriate and eat and, you know he was, he was really a sweetie. I don't have pets anymore because I'm I leave too often? Michael Hingson  53:21 Yeah, you travel a lot. Well, a lot we at least I have people to help take care of stitch when I'm not here. So it does work out. Yeah, so do you so with all the things that you've been doing and singing and so on, do you teach voice to people? Spider Saloff  53:40 I do. I've taught at a school I didn't start teaching till I moved to Chicago, and this guy named David bloom, he's kind of a Chicago icon. He's had a jazz school in Chicago for years, and he asked me to teach at the school about a year after I moved to Chicago, and I said, I don't know how to teach. He said, Yes, you do. You just teach what you know. And I started teaching. And then I did courses there for a long time. I met a lot of people, and I've had wonderful students, and I still work there on occasion when we have a course. But I teach privately now, and I am. I just love it so much. I mean, I learned so much from my students all the time. You know, they're, they're just amazing, and they're all different, all different voices, all different age groups, all different reasons why they want to sing. But it's, it's one of the joys of my life. Students, they're fantastic. And I adore teaching voice. And I really a coach, you know, I teach performance and coaching, and it's not so much technique. I do some technique, but mostly it's working with. What, what the singer has to offer. Michael Hingson  55:03 I like the way you put it though that you learn so much from students. I think the day we stop learning, the day we become useless, we we always need to learn, learning, and life is all about learning, every Spider Saloff  55:15 day, learning, you bet it's exciting. It keeps you ticking. Michael Hingson  55:21 It does. It's so much fun. And it's, you know, like the internet, I regard it as an as a wonderful treasure trove. There's always neat stuff to learn. So I don't worry about the so called dark web and all that. You know, I didn't know that I would Spider Saloff  55:35 learn as much as I did about, you know, the internet and and the things covid really well. I always, always had a website. I had a guy that became my webmaster, that heard me radio and like there were all. I always was connected with it. But to the extent that I learned how to produce videos that all happened during covid, I really thought I was never going to be performing again live. I you didn't know, you know, that talk, you know, it was just so such a weird world. All of a sudden it was but learning to adapt. That was what we all learned from covid, was adapting and being open to new experiences. You know, that was a major, major factor of the whole thing. Michael Hingson  56:23 And living alone, you have to cook your own food. Spider Saloff  56:25 And like I've always, cooked my own food. Oh, my God, do I love to cook. Yeah, every day for myself. I love cooking and throwing parties. I must be Michael Hingson  56:35 a little bit lazy. I enjoy cooking. But when Karen was here. We shared the responsibility, and it's it's a lot to cook for one person, so I don't do as much of it as I used to, but I don't suffer. I will Spider Saloff  56:50 point that out you guys suffer, no, but I probably I cook for myself. Every day I cook. Almost everything I eat, I don't cook for myself is when somebody magically takes me to dinner or I go to somebody's house. I've got a lot of friends, so I get to eat at other people's houses and go out to restaurants, but I do and look forward to cooking for myself. I just can't wait to see what am I gonna have today, like I get excited about it. You know, it's a joy for me. Michael Hingson  57:23 I cook more easy meals, but I also do my own cooking. I mean, I don't go out very often, and that's fine. Yeah, I enjoy being home. I enjoy being home with a puppy and a kitty and listening to the radio and all that sort of stuff. So I hear you fabulous, fabulous. So you did some work on on radio series. Spider Saloff  57:45 Oh, yes, one of the, actually, the very first pianist that I worked with at the Gold Star sardine bar is a guy named Brad Williams. And we've been friends for years, and then at one point, this, this this guy that was a big fan of mine, Bill Sheldon. He was an old way, older fellow. The three of us created a radio series that's called Words and Music, that's about the American Songbook, and we were on the air for two and a half years. We were on we were part of NPR, and we were syndicated internationally, all through our classical station here in Chicago, W FMT, and it was the most challenging but wonderful time to crank those shows out. We never worked so hard as we did for that show, but those are still out there, you know. And we the copies of that show are available on CD. People can purchase them, and you can learn about that on my website too. Michael Hingson  58:49 I have been collecting old radio shows since 19 Well, let's see, probably 1968 and I've collected a bunch, and I'm also part of the radio enthusiast of Puget Sound, so we recreate programs every year. So I wasn't able, I wasn't able to be at the one that they did up in Washington State in September, because I was speaking somewhere. But there's going to be another one around. Well at Christmas, it's actually going to be the fifth, fourth, fifth and sixth. I think it is. Of December, we're going to recreate something like 12 or 13 different shows, and that's a lot of fun. Spider Saloff  59:34 Wowza, what are the shows like? What is it comprised of performance or recordings or what? Michael Hingson  59:42 No, no, we're actually going to perform live up in Washington, and people are invited to come and be in the audience, and they'll also be broadcast on yesterday usa.com and yesterday usa.net whichever you go to yesterday, USA is a, is a network. It's, it's got a red net. Work in a blue network, just like NBC used to have, and they play old radio shows and a lot of interviews with people. So there's still some old radio actors who will be there as part of it, Carolyn Grimes, who played Zuzu and it's a wonderful life will be there, and Beverly Washburn, who was on the Jack Benny show, and and there'll be other people, and it's kind of neat. And Larry Albert, who will be doing some of the voices, and who's was Harry Niles for years, and still is, I guess, on NPR and and so on. But it's really fun. Spider Saloff  1:00:39 That's excellent. What a blast. Yeah, it is, wow. Well, have a happy holidays with that. Michael Hingson  1:00:46 And yeah, well, I want to thank you for being here. How do people reach out to you, if they'd like to, to reach out, or if you Spider Saloff  1:00:54 want them to my website, spider jazz, calm, and you can find everything and too much information about me, and then, and if you want to get in touch with me directly, write to my email address. Spider jazz@gmail.com makes it easy. And maybe you can take private lessons, because I teach on Zoom. Ah, there you go. Me how. Yeah, cool. Michael Hingson  1:01:20 Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening today and watching whichever you do or both. Love to hear your thoughts about our conversation. Feel free to email me. Michael H, i@accessibe.com that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, wherever you're monitoring us today, please give us a five star rating, and please give us a review. We love your reviews. We appreciate your input. If you can think of anyone who you think ought to be a guest, and if you listening out there want to be a guest, please reach out to me. We're always looking for more people to come on the podcast. We met spider through someone else who has been on the the podcast as well. And spider, if you know anyone who want who you think ought to be a guest, yep, love to hear from you. I got some ideas, cool. Well, I want to once again. Thank you for being here. This has been absolutely fun. Spider Saloff  1:02:16 Thank you, Michael, what a blast. I'll be talking to you soon. Michael Hingson  1:02:24 Thank you for being here with me on unstoppable mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about if you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hinkson.com and download my free ebook, blinded by fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset you.

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Der Krieg zwischen den USA und dem Iran könnte weit über den Nahen Osten hinauswirken. Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther diskutieren, warum Donald Trumps Politik den Dollar schwächen, China stärken und dem Euro eine strategische Chance eröffnen könnte.

Zwischen Absichtserklärungen, tatsächlichem Handeln und dringend Erforderlichem. – Einblicke in aktuelle Probleme und den Reformbedarf Deutschlands mit Prof. Michael Hüther, Direktor des Instituts der deutschen Wirtschaft, zu Gast bei „Schmiedings Blick“. – Der Irankrieg ist bereits in seiner fünften Woche. Die Energiepreise sind nach oben geschossen. Wie schwer trifft dieser Krieg die deutsche Wirtschaft? – Unternehmen und Verbraucher leiden unter den hohen Energiekosten. Sollte die Regierung helfen? Und wenn ja, wie? – Der Irankrieg verschärft die deutsche Wachstumsschwäche. Wie steht es insgesamt um den Standort Deutschland? Was sind die Schwächen? Und wo liegen die Stärken? – Die Regierung Merz/Klingbeil ist angetreten mit dem Vorsatz, das Land voranzubringen. Was hat sie nach knapp einem Jahr erreicht? Läuft beim so genannten Sondervermögen etwas schief? Und was sollte in Bezug auf die Schuldenbremse – nicht zuletzt auch bei den Verteidigungsausgaben – passieren? – In seiner Grundsatzrede bei der Bertelsmann Stiftung hat Finanzminister Klingbeil neue Reformen vorgeschlagen, auch für den Arbeitsmarkt. Deutschland hat im europäischen Vergleich bereits eine hohe Erwerbsquote. Wo sind hier noch realistische Potenziale für mehr Arbeit und eine höhere Produktivität? Und welche Voraussetzungen müssen geschaffen werden, um diese zu heben? – Um bessere Arbeitsanreize zu finanzieren, wird eine Erhöhung der Erbschaftssteuer, des Spitzensteuersatzes und auch der Mehrwertsteuer diskutiert. Sind das die richtigen Ansätze? Und wo sollte der Staat außerdem eingreifen? – Schließlich: Welche drei Reformen wären die wichtigsten, um den Standort Deutschland nachhaltig zu stärken?

What happens when you finally understand yourself after decades of feeling different? I sit down with Randi-Lee Bowslaugh as she shares her journey through autism diagnosis, mental health struggles, and loss, and how she turned those experiences into writing, advocacy, and purpose. You will hear how she navigated depression, chronic pain, and family trauma while raising a daughter with autism, and why self-advocacy became her most powerful tool. I believe you will find this conversation both honest and encouraging as it shows how understanding your story can help you move forward with strength and clarity. Highlights: 00:01:35 – Discover how early signs of autism can be missed in childhood 00:06:54 – Understand how chronic pain and fibromyalgia impact daily life 00:08:23 – Learn what a late autism diagnosis reveals about identity 00:12:54 – Discover why autism appears to be increasing but isn't 00:35:18 – Learn the real challenges of raising a child with autism 00:58:26 – Discover why self-advocacy is the most important skill to build Bottom of Form About the Guest: Randi-Lee was born and raised in Ontario, Canada and from a young age she had a passion for helping others. She attended Niagara College and graduated at the top of her class from Community and Justice Services, after completing her placement at a recovery house for alcohol and drug addictions. Post-graduation she worked at a Native Friendship Centre for two and a half years while pursuing a university education in psychology. Randi-Lee continued working in social services for another four years as an employment counselor until she left to pursue her other passions. Randi-Lee is an author and outspoken advocate for mental health sharing her true story with honesty. From the age of 14 she struggled with depressive thoughts. There were times in her life that she wasn't sure how she would continue. Depression continues to be a battle in her life but she is glad that she continues to live. She has spoken at events that promote wellness and compassionately shares her experiences with her own mental health. In 2021 she started a YouTube channel, Write or Die Show, to spread awareness about various mental health issues and to end the stigma associated with mental health. Growing up she never felt that she fit in, being the last to understand jokes and confused about many emotions that she saw on others. In 2021 she finally had answers to the questions about herself that had been nagging at her. She was diagnosed with moderate Autism. Another of Randi-Lee's passions is kickboxing, which she did for about 10 years. She was a Canadian National Champion in kickboxing in 2015, competed at the World's Kickboxing tournament later that year and 2016 competed at the Pan-Am Games, where she received silver in her division. In 2020 she was chosen as one of the coaches for the Ontario Winter Games where she inspired and coached young athletes. Randi is a mom to two; her youngest child has autism and she is a grandma to one. Randi encourages and supports her youngest child's entrepreneurial spirit as he follows his dream of being an artist. When she can, she incorporates his art into her stories. Ways to connect with Randi-Lee: Websites: http://www.rbwriting.ca My Books https://amzn.to/3LNbuCy Write or Die: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSTmVQUW8K8r1sBDchLyTwA?sub_confirmation=1 What I'm Reading https://open.spotify.com/show/4kMt8h95cfD3idamZ5LJZK?si=189fc2f901124993 Merch Store https://write-or-die-show.creator-spring.com Facebook https://www.facebook.com/rbwriting Instagram https://www.instagram.com/randileebowslaugh TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@randileebowslaugh SubStack https://randileebowslaugh.substack.com/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear, together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi everyone. I am Michael Hingson, the host of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet today. Which one do we get mostly unexpected? Which is anything that doesn't directly have to do with inclusion or diversity, but you never know where we might go with it all. So we'll see anyway. Our guest today is Randy Lee Bowslaugh, who actually was on our podcast well now years ago, as a result of one of the pot of Palooza episodes. And we kind of re encountered each other, because we both Sarah publicist Mickey Mickelson, who I sent an announcement to, saying, Tell everybody you record, that you that you serve, that we're always looking for podcast guests. And guess who showed up? There's Randy Lee. So here we are. Yeah, I know, isn't it great? So here we are. And Randy Lee, welcome. Well, we'll call you Randy right to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  01:58 Thanks. I am so glad to come back. And I find it funny that I also, you know, send Mickey the hey, my podcast is looking for guests, and who comes on my show. Will you Michael Hingson  02:11 turn about spare play? Randy is, among other things, an author, and we're going to talk about some of those books and so on. But let's start like I love to do tell us about kind of the early Randy growing up. 02:23 Well, the early Randy back in the day time Michael Hingson  02:27 ago, in a galaxy far, far away. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  02:30 Yes, this feels like it now. So I mean growing up, I guess I would say, I would say I was your typical kid, but looking back and knowing what I know now, I was definitely not a typical child. But yeah, I loved the same things both most kids do, playing in the mud and writing. Yep, loved writing at the young age, making movies, all that jazz. And then as I got older into my teen years, that's when, that's when I dealt with some depression that just keeps following me around. Yep. And then graduated high school, went to college, graduated from that couple times. How come? A couple times? Well, I took the first program I took. It was called pre community services. So by the time I had to actually apply to college, it was like two months before college would start. There wasn't a lot of options left open. So I kind of picked something that I'm like, Okay, it's still open. Looks kind of interesting. So I went with that, but it was just like a one year certificate program. And so from that, I was like, hey, I need to figure out a real program to take. So I looked around and I found one that had a lot of similar classes, because they didn't want to do a lot of repeat of stuff. So I took community and Justice Services, which was a lot of fun. Never thought that was going to be what I took, but I did from there. Learned psychology was amazing, so I took some university psychology and got into social service work for a few years before I was like, oh my goodness, the amount of governmental red tape. Here I am out, Michael Hingson  04:16 and we should explain Randy is from Canada. Yes, originally Toronto, right. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  04:22 No, Toronto's about, no, Toronto's about two hours north of me. What town I am in? Michael Hingson  04:31 Welland. Welland, okay, is that? But that where you're from originally? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  04:35 Well, I grew up in St Catherine's, which is still the same region as well, and so well and is part of how many we got 12 municipalities, something like that, called the Niagara region. And we encompassed Niagara Michael Hingson  04:49 Falls, got it. So anyway, you You went off and did this other program in college. Then what did you do? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  05:01 So from there, I was like, I'm going to be a probation officer. That's what I decided I was going to be. But at that time, you needed to have a bachelor's degree. So I started doing University and of course, by the time I was burnt out from social services, they had changed, and you didn't need a bachelor degree anymore, but I was over it, and I didn't want to do it anymore. Yeah, awesome, awesome. So I worked, I worked as an employment counselor at two different spots for a total of, I want to say, around six ish years, give or take, before, yeah, before I burnt out and went, Oh, my goodness, I am done with social services. Through like government agencies, I can do a lot more help. And just talking to people about my story or writing about it, I can be a lot more useful. Yeah. So, yeah, I stopped. I quit there at that time, I also had cancer. So that's fun, no fun, right? It was, it was not a good time at all. But you can ask me more about that after one train of thought at a time, or else I'll get totally distracted. So from there, I was actually a personal trainer. Had my own little business for a while there doing personal training and kickboxing, because I was competing, competing in kickboxing. 06:28 Tell me about I'm I don't know much about kickboxing. Tell me about that. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  06:33 Yeah, so I started doing that. Oh, many moons ago. Now it feels like and what is it exactly? It is kicking and punching people. Well, okay, yep, all right, now we know the kind of person you are. Okay, exactly. There's different styles. So, like, there's depending what style of it you do is going to depend on the rules, but basically, you're kicking and punching people in the front of their body, from the knees up to the head. Got it basically, for the most part. There. There's a few variations of rules depending if you're doing like k1 or low kick or whatever. So yeah, that was that was awesome. I competed nationally a couple times. I went to worlds. I went to the pan Americans. It was so much fun. I keep telling my husband, one day I'm going to do it again, and he keeps telling me to remember that my body is broken now. It's broken now. Yeah, it's a few years ago, probably, I guess it would have been around 2022 when covid started to release its hold on Canada, because we took forever, I started getting all these aches and pains, and there were days that I literally couldn't get myself up off the ground. It was, it was ridiculous. So lots of doctor's appointments, lots of testing, and so there is arthritis in both my sacroiliac joints, which are pretty important when you're kickboxing, because that's your hips, and that's how you move. So really hard. When the doctors tell you don't, don't, you know, jostle those more because, you know, that's where it already is. And I'm like, oh, cool, cool. And then, and then Fibromyalgia was the other diagnosis they gave me. So there's just days that I don't really want to move much I've been getting for the past year and a half now, been getting nerve ablation. So that is basically when they stick really long needles into your spine, like between your vertebraes, into your nerves, and they burn them so that they don't send pain signals to your brain. Yeah, that's, that's the easy version Michael Hingson  08:49 of it. Well, maybe with all this pain, it's time to go into chess, right? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  08:53 I mean, I, I was in chess club in grade eight. I know how to play it. I'm good at it anymore. Michael Hingson  09:01 Well, well anyway, as I recall, you got diagnosed with autism also, right? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  09:09 Yes, I did. So remember I was like, Hey, I thought I was a typical kid, but really I was not. That explains it. I was. How was it manifested? Michael Hingson  09:19 How do you manifest that it was different and you weren't really typical, even though you thought you were Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  09:24 well, I feel like first when, when you're living it and people aren't telling you different, you don't realize that anything is different. Because I did well enough at school. I had some friends, but where I went to school, specifically, it was very small school, and there was like five girls in my class, so basically you were all forced to just be friends with each other. And it wasn't until, as we got older and they started, I remember this one year, I think it was like grade five, and they're all talking about having dates to the Fun Fair, which is just like a. Little carnival, and they all want to have dates. And I'm like, why? I don't why. But it was things like that where I was like, as I got older, you could kind of see more, but when I was younger, manifested a lot in sensory overload. That ended up in meltdowns and yelling and screaming and people telling my mom, oh, you need to discipline her more. She's just spoiled. My mom's like, I didn't tell her no, so I don't know what you're talking about. Michael Hingson  10:29 So how old were you when you were finally properly diagnosed? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  10:35 I'm 38 now. I'm gonna say 3233 Michael Hingson  10:41 interesting, pretty recent. I've talked to a number of people on this podcast who were diagnosed as being on on the autism spectrum, if you will, or having autism in their adult lives. And they they kind of a lot of them say, well, we noticed that there was something different about me, but I didn't know what it was, and they were very uncomfortable, but eventually realized that, well, not realized, but discovered through diagnosis, that they had autism. And you know, obviously the part of the issue is we're better at it now than we used to be. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  11:20 Yes, that is a huge part. I will say I totally have those same feelings more as a teenager, the older I got, the further away from your typical teenager, and the more I could tell I didn't really fit in, right, like I didn't understand their little inside jokes. I didn't understand again, the whole dating thing. So things like that where you're like, well, you're 15, you should be going out doing that. I'm like, Can I just stay home and go to bed? I'm in bed by 10. Why would I go out? I have a routine, and that's not typical of a teenager. So I definitely felt it more the older I got, as opposed to when I was really little. And I think a big thing with the late diagnosis is it happens a lot more with females. A lot of what, yeah, a lot of what they like, researched and stuff. When autism first became a thing, it was all in boys. So all the research and all their kind of stuff is all based around how a boy would show it. So boys are more likely to rock back and forth, say as their STEM, whereas girls were more likely to maybe. So I have a little piece of Lego here that I'm playing with. We're more likely to do things that are more easily hidden. So we're still doing the same thing, but we're doing it in a smaller way so that, you know, it's not as noticeable. And people are like, Okay, well, that's, that's not big, so that's not a big deal. And girls are also more likely to, you know, a feminine quality is being quiet and staying to yourself. So when girls are just quiet and reserved, well, that's just feminine. So you're fine not Oh, you don't know how to interact in the social situation, so you don't want to talk like you don't know what to say. You are confused, right? It's perceived very differently, Michael Hingson  13:17 yeah, and I have heard that before from from from people. I didn't know it, but I've heard it from several people on this podcast, and I appreciate it, and it's important to know but, but I think that people keep talking about how autism is on the increase, and I wonder how much that really is true, as opposed to how much better we are at diagnosing it now, Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  13:41 I think that's exactly what it is, is we're better at diagnosing it. I don't think it's necessarily on an increase. I think it's always been there. Because, like, I really should have been diagnosed back in the 90s, yeah, right. Like everybody my age who's getting diagnosed now would have been diagnosed in the 90s, but they weren't as good at it. They didn't know what to look for, and so now that we they know more what to look for, and we can a lot of times articulate for ourselves, like when they're asking me then the psychologist was asking me the questions I can articulate for myself, what I was like, how I felt, how I learned to figure out how To cope. Because by the time you're older, you've learned ways to just figure it out. You've had no choice. Doesn't mean it's been easy, but you've had no choice but to figure it out. Michael Hingson  14:29 I realize it's not the same, but conceptually, people who happen to have dyslexia are the same sort of thing. They've got to figure it out, and they do, and many of them do, even though they have this thing where the brain doesn't necessarily accurately communicate what or cape or easily communicate what the eye is seeing and recognize it, so people learn to deal with it and to cope. But, but, yeah, it is one of those things. That we have to deal with exactly. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  15:03 And I was interviewing somebody on my show a little bit ago, and they were dyslexic, and that's what they said. They said, You know, I learned to deal with it because I didn't know she was older than me, so she would have been in school, I want to say, maybe in the 60s, 70s, something like that. And so you just didn't complain, right? You didn't You didn't talk back, you didn't complain. You just figured it out. And so that's what she did, until later, when finally, I think I want to say maybe she was in college, and she finally told a professor, and they're like, you might have dyslexia, and that would explain a lot. It's like, Oh, wow. Michael Hingson  15:44 Well, and again, it wasn't something that people understood until later as well. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  15:50 Exactly. I know I remember when my kid was in kindergarten, she's she's going to be 19 next week, but it was all about phonics. That's how they were teaching the kids to learn. They weren't teaching them any other way. They were doing phonics. So they sent all the phonics books home, and she could not grasp it, not not because of dyslexia, I don't think, but she could not grasp, like, phonetically, what things sounded like. So we had to come up with a different way. And she was later diagnosed with, like, a reading writing disability. But they didn't name any one specific one, but she still, now at 19, struggles with words, especially those crazy words like knife. Why does it start with a K, things like that that she just, she just has to find different ways to go about it. And luckily that, you know, talk to text now is a lot better than Michael Hingson  16:45 it used to be. Yeah, yeah. Voice recognition is really pretty good these days, which helps a lot. Now, is she diagnosed also with autism? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  16:55 Yes, she was diagnosed when she was eight. Michael Hingson  16:58 So that must have been interesting, and certainly in a lot of ways a blessing, because she learned about it earlier, and also for you, because then you could start to and you have some some other aspects of it that make it easier for you to understand, but that made it more possible for you to help her. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  17:19 Yeah, so she was diagnosed before I was it was actually I came out of my room one day a tooth Mom, if I have dyslexia or sorry if I have autism, I got it from you. I go, huh? Yeah, you probably did, and that's what prompted me to go and actually find out. But yeah, being able to get diagnosed earlier gives them the best opportunity to go and get support once we had that, you know, diagnosis on paper, the school was like, Oh, we can do this now. We could do that now. Whereas before they're like, she's just being bad, we're sending her home. Michael Hingson  17:57 What do you think about all these people who keep saying that it's all caused by vaccinations. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  18:04 Well, number one, so load of hooey. There's no actual scientific research. Number two, if I had to choose my kid living in an iron lung or being autistic, I would pick being autistic. Uh huh. So I mean, what? What's worse being autistic or being in an iron lung or dead? Michael Hingson  18:27 Yeah, I'd rather not be dead. And I'd rather not be in an iron lung or on a respirator all the time, exactly. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  18:37 I mean, vaccinations absolutely don't cause it, but if they did for some strange reason, I still would choose to vaccinate, because I still would want my kid to live Michael Hingson  18:49 back when I was born. It was not accepted by medical science that if you were born prematurely and put in an incubator, that you could go blind because your retinas wouldn't properly form. It had been actually proposed, though, by one person at the Wilmer Eye Institute in Johns Hopkins University, but medical science wouldn't accept it. They they kept saying, too much oxygen is never a bad thing. Well, it is actually, and today, you still can become blind what's now called retinopathy or prematurity. Back when I was born, it was called retro lentral fibroplasia. I like that much better, but retinopathy or prematurity, but today, medical science accepts it. So if there's a premature baby, and they have to put it in a pure or, well basically a pure oxygen environment. At least they know what they're dealing with, and the parents are warned. But also, incidents of the blindness are a lot less in part, because you don't have to give a child a pure oxygen environment. For 24 hours a day. You can even not do it for a short period of time every day, and the incidence of blindness goes down to zero. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  20:09 Wow. I did not know that, though, so interesting. Michael Hingson  20:12 But when I was born, you were put in an incubator, and it was pure oxygen environment, and that is what caused my blindness and the blindness in so many other children who were born prematurely back in the baby boomer era, that the average age of blind people in the country actually, well, dropped from 67 to 65 years of age. That's how many premature kids were born who became blind. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  20:40 Wow, isn't it interesting how far along science has come? I find it so interesting when I look back, because I always like to say, in all reality, medicine is just a baby, right? Like the big breakthroughs really didn't come till the 1900s when things were being more discovered. And that's that's very recent in the grand scheme of history of everything. So I find it, yeah, it's intriguing. And we're Michael Hingson  21:13 still learning a lot, and still so much to learn. Medicine still is very much a baby in so many ways. There's so many things that we are learning about but don't really know totally Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  21:24 yet, by any standard, exactly like they don't know what actually causes autism, they have ideas, but they don't know. And even, like fibromyalgia, there's, you know, these two factions of people that say that's just because they gave up. They don't, they don't know what's wrong with you, so they just give you that label, sort of, but it is a real thing. So just because they don't know what causes it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. What it just means, pain, lots of pain, okay? I mean, there's other things, but my biggest thing is just pain all over body, pain and you just It hurts to move so, Michael Hingson  22:09 so getting a hammer and sticking your thumb out and then hitting your thumb with the hammer isn't going to really make that much of a difference. No, feel pain all over anyway. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  22:18 Huh? Exactly. That was an idea. I appreciate that. Michael Hingson  22:25 I've had friends with migraines, and I say you want to get rid of the migraine pain. Put your finger down. Get a hammer, hit it. You won't have a migraine anymore. Yeah, yeah. Well, you're too Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  22:34 busy, because your finger hurts too much. I got it exactly. Michael Hingson  22:37 Yeah. No, seriously. The bottom line is that I appreciate that, that all the pain is there, and hopefully those are the kinds of things that at some point we'll learn to deal with and fix, just like cancer, which we still are learning so much about, Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  22:56 exactly right? And that's that's the thing. That's a medicine's a baby, because we're still learning. We still don't know the human body is so intricate. Michael Hingson  23:08 Yeah, well, you, you, you had a lot of depression and depressive thoughts when you were growing up. What was that from? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  23:21 That's a great question. I mean, there definitely were some mitigating factors, but a lot of times, depression doesn't necessarily have a root, like it doesn't have a cause. It just your brain is not firing all of the all the proper channels and proper, happy hormones. My brain is not working right now, but when I was a teenager, there definitely was some issues. I mean, again, talked about not feeling like I belonged. I mean, that's going to put anybody into a horrible mindset, right? You don't feel like you belong. What is wrong with me? Why can't I fit in? Why don't I understand these things? Why don't people like me, right? So that's kind of a spiral on its own. And then at the time, my brother, who was four years older than me, he was in and out of jail, he was doing drugs, and that just caused chaos in the house. And then my my mom's ex husband, he was also an alcoholic, so just lots of chaos. You never knew what to expect. And autism likes to know what to expect. We like routine. We like to know what's going to come so again, all these different layers. But ultimately, I think, you know, I have depression because my brain is not quite wired correctly, and then you add in all those other layers and it just, it makes for a really bad soup. Yeah, not good. Do you Michael Hingson  24:55 still have depression? Sort of, kind of things from time? Do you do? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  24:58 Definitely, time. Yeah. Yeah, so I take antidepressants every day, so they keep me from going really down. So what I like to say, because I actually had a bit of a depression over the summer, because there was just so much chaos in the house we were renovating, which it turned out amazing, but it was just a lot. So I like to say, you know, without the medication, the depression goes, whoo, really far down, like it just, you know, bottoms out with the antidepressants. It, it goes down, but at a manageable level where then you can still, because I've done a lot of therapy, so it goes down, but the antidepressants keep it at a level where you can still go I am going to use one of my coping strategies? Yes, I can do that. Whereas, without the antidepressants, you're so far down, you're like coping strategies don't work. I don't care. They're not going to do anything, right? Michael Hingson  25:51 Well, so you said your brother was in and out of jail and drugs and all that sort of stuff. So whatever happened to him, he died. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  25:59 What are we 2025? 2025, four years ago now? So he drug overdose, drug overdose, yeah, so it was something that I always assumed was going to happen. Because, I mean, when you're living that lifestyle, obviously it wasn't the phone call I wanted to receive. But, I mean, for years, every time there'd be like, a news report about it, I'd look to see if it was his name, because I figured that that's how I was going to find out. Luckily, I got a phone call instead of reading in the newspaper. I guess that was kind of a nice, nicer way to find out. Yeah, so four years ago, back in May. Michael Hingson  26:45 And so now, did your brother, or was he ever diagnosed with autism, or any of those sorts of things, or was it just totally different? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  26:56 He, I want to say he had anxiety. He might have had other stuff too, but he did have an anxiety prescription at one point, I know, because the one nice thing about being in jail is that they do have some supports to try and figure out how to get you healthy and back on the street and not be a re offender. It doesn't always work, but so I know he did have that, and he suffered from panic attacks. I remember the one day I was, I was a teenager, he was maybe 19, and he's having this full blown panic attack. He thought he was having a heart attack kind of thing. And so he called 911, and everything. And they came. They tried, like, no, it's panic attack. So he definitely had stuff going on. He probably also had PTSD from from different things that I'm not necessarily privy to. But, I mean, I know that as a kid, we had a different dad, so I know his dad was kind of a big jerk. My dad was definitely a big jerk to them. So there was, you know, again, layers and layers to them. And a lot of times, people that do drugs or alcohol, they do it to numb the pain of something else. Addiction is usually to numb the pain of something else. And I don't know exactly what those things were, but definitely, I'm going to say some kind of trauma and anxiety. Michael Hingson  28:23 Yeah, understand. Well, it's still a sad thing, and it happens all too often. Yes, I met, we had a family who lived next door to us when we lived after Karen and I got married in Mission Viejo, and they adopted a little girl whose mother was a drug addict, and so she as a child, also was addicted, and it affected her behavior a lot. I haven't heard what happened to her later, but it was pretty uncontrollable. We observed some of it, and, you know, we knew it, and they could talk with us about it, because we understood, but it is, it is sad. Drugs Don't help a lot at all. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  29:09 No Exactly. They numb the pain for that moment. But it's definitely not the correct solution. It's not going to solve the problem, and it's not going to help you in the long run. 29:19 Now, in addition to your brother? Did you have other siblings? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  29:22 I did. I did slash do? So I had two, yes. So I had two sisters, younger sisters. The one died, actually, again by drugs, and she was really sick with, I'm not sure what else, but she went go to the doctor to find out. So she died a year ago, and then I have my baby sister. And my baby sister is still around and doing well, good. Michael Hingson  29:55 Yeah, nice to have somebody else in the family, the sibling i. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  30:00 Yeah, yeah, we're like, 12 years apart, so it's a pretty big gap, but, but it's nice now that she's an adult, it's not, it doesn't feel as big of a gap, right? When you're, she was first born, and I'm, you know, a teeny bopper, and she's, I loved her, you know, you get the babies and you babysit, and you're, oh, this is my little sister, my little doll, and dress her up. But then you get into, like, 1718, and into college, and I'm in college, and I've got my my kid, and I'm trying to do all this college stuff, so I don't have time for doing other stuff. Yeah, so that that was harder to stay connected, because she's just, you know, she was like, 10, and I'm trying to figure out college and a career and all this stuff. So, yeah, it was definitely, it was, yeah, it was definitely tough for a while when you have a huge age gap, but the older you get, the less the age gap matters. 30:54 Yeah. How long you been married? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  30:58 13 years. Yeah, I've been together for 18 years. 31:05 Well, that's a long time, but that, you know, Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  31:08 yeah, as my entire adult life, I always like to say, I'm so glad I never had to date anybody else as an adult, see, Michael Hingson  31:15 and it all works out that way. What does he do? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  31:19 He's a mechanic. Oh, yeah, I love it because it's so expensive. Get your car fixed. Yeah? I go, honey, something spoken, 31:29 yeah, I turned the key and nothing happens, right? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  31:33 I'll call them sometimes they'll be like, Oh, I don't want to forget, but there's this light on. I don't know what it means, but fix it well? Michael Hingson  31:41 And the answer to that is, of course, just watch the Big Bang Theory, the check engine lights on for all 13 or 12 years. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Gosh, but you know it's, it is it is a challenge, and we all have different, different issues now, is your your mom still about? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  32:03 Yes, actually. So my mom broke her hip very recently. Yes, that's actually why we had an original date, and I had to change it because she had broke her hip, so I had to go to the hospital and visit her too much football, huh? Exactly? She, you know, she's just too competitive there. No, she got, they diagnosed her with osteoporosis. I'm like, okay, that makes sense, because you're kind of young for a broken hip, yeah? So she's doing all right now she's around and kicking. So she's, we had to switch is, my mom actually lives with me, and she is on the second floor. My room is on the first floor, so I had to give her my room and my bed, because I love her, yeah, but I can't wait till she can walk up the stairs and I get on my bed 32:51 back so right now she's on the first floor. Yes, yeah. Michael Hingson  32:56 Well, you know, we when we moved to New Jersey. Karen, I think I'd mentioned in the past, is in a wheelchair her whole life, we built an accessible house. So we used we had an elevator that was the only incremental cost to making the house accessible. Because the neat thing about building an accessible home is, if you're building it from scratch, it really doesn't cost anything to build accessibility in like ramps or lower counter wide doorways, but it was in an area where they only, well, everyone had a two story home, so we had to put an elevator. And so let's build into the mortgage, which was okay, so it's a $15,000 incremental cost. That's not that bad. Plus the county engineers made, made it hard to get it done, but we got it in. But still, it actually, although assessors tend not to value those kinds of things, actually the elevator ended up being a great asset when we were selling the house, because a husband and wife, who are both very short, bought the house, and so they love the lower counters, and also the washer and dryer were in a room on the second floor, so that all worked. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  34:12 Well, awesome. Oh, I love that. We just renovated our kitchen and bathroom because the floor was rotting and it just by sheer how we wanted to kind of arrange the cupboards, because before the kitchen's a really big room, but it was not, it was not designed well. It was not very functional. So we kind of we moved things around a little bit, and it's definitely a lot more functional for her now that she has the walker, at least until she's all the way better. She can actually move around the kitchen to get to the bathroom. In the bathroom door, they My house is over 100 years old, so some of the doors and stuff, they're smaller than what they do now. So they widen the door to put in a real size door. Run stuff. I'm like, Oh, this is that's much more convenient for you now. And everybody actually, oh, yeah, it's really great. And we did. We got the all in one washer dryer, which I love, and now it is in the kitchen, and I don't have to worry about taking laundry downstairs on those really bad days when I don't want to move anymore, yeah, and I don't forget to switch it over, because that's one of the biggest problems when you've got autism, is you forget you're doing something. Yeah. And your laundry sits for three days, so you have to wash it again, and it reminds you, so that helps, yep. So now I put it in, it washes, it dries, and then it's done. Michael Hingson  35:39 That's cool. Well, love it. So, so your daughter with autism is, you said 19, Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  35:48 she will be on Tuesday. Michael Hingson  35:49 So what was, what is it like raising a child with autism? You know, you you've learned to deal with it, but, and that must help you in terms of some of the expectations, but what is it like? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  36:03 It's so hard. It's it's definitely hard. Now, I don't really have a typical child to base it off of, because even my older one, like my stepdaughter, I wouldn't say she's typical, but she's definitely not atypical, either, like she's not on the spectrum or anything. So raising the two very different, and I gotta say, with love, it is a battle every day, and you have to the older she gets, the more difficult it becomes, because you're expecting a certain level of maturity by the time they're 19, and that's just not there. And you know, hopefully, hopefully, in 10 years, she will act like she's 19, because right now at 19, she's acting like she's 12 ish, 13 ish. So it definitely helps to remind ourselves that at times, because you just, you want to be like, but you're an adult, like, go and change your clothes. What are you doing? But then you have to stop and go, wait. Okay, we have to break down these steps. We have to, you know, give clearer directions and just reminder, yeah, biggest thing is remind ourselves that she's going to be a little bit harder to deal with sometimes. But a lot of the things that yeah, that I've found that work for me, routine, making notes, those are things that definitely help her and through school. Luckily, she was able to, not so much through school, but through our journey with school and doctors and stuff. She went to it's called CPRI here in Ontario, and she went there for three months way back when, and it helped her a lot. They finally did the psycho educational assessment and the OT assessment, a few other things, so that helped her to understand herself and also us to understand what she needed. Because I hate the whole low functioning, high functioning thing, but she is more severe when it comes to life skills than I am. So in that part, it's tricky, like, I've always been like, you get up and you get dressed. She's like, I get up, but I'm not going anywhere. Why would I get dressed like cuz, yes, stink. So it's just little things like that that are different between her and I. So it's a learning experience, but we make it work for the most part. So has she gone through high school? Yes. So she finished high school. She graduated two I guess it's almost two years ago now, a year and a half, she tried college. It did not go well again. It was it came down to the functional, social aspect of things. It just didn't work well for her. She loved she took baking. She loved doing the baking. She was capable of doing the baking, but she could not fit into the social standards that the college wanted from their students. So it was a disaster. That's putting it lightly, but it did not go well, and so they actually gave her what's called a medical withdrawal so that we could get our tuition back past the like your deadline of getting it back, because it just it wasn't going to work. So she's kind of figuring out what the heck she's going to do. She tried volunteering at the at the cat place that didn't. She said it was too boring. And I'm like, okay, just trying to figure it out. We don't, we don't know where life's gonna lead at this point. Michael Hingson  39:48 Yeah, well, and maybe it's one of those things where you just kind of have to wait and see how it goes exactly. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  39:57 Now that's where we're at. We're at wait and see, and we're. Work on those life skills. Michael Hingson  40:01 Does she have any idea what she wants to do with life? Or it's just Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  40:05 not there yet, not not there yet. She loves doing art, but to do art as like a career, I think would be hard. It's deadlines. So she's done some art for some of my kids books, and they're great, and people love them, but it is. I've had this one kid's book written for two years now, and I'm still waiting on her to finish the artwork, and it's only like 10 pictures, but she just doesn't have a sense of deadline. If she's not, if she's not in the art mood, she just doesn't do it. I'm like, Hey, but I I pay you to do these like I do actually pay her to do them, because I want to incentivize her. I mean, it's good work. I'm selling it so you should get something, but just doesn't, doesn't really matter Michael Hingson  40:53 to her. It doesn't, doesn't really gel yet. Yeah, yeah. Whether it does, remains to be seen. Of course, Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  41:00 exactly what we'll see as we go well. Michael Hingson  41:04 So tell me about the books that you write. What kind of books do you write and what got you started in the writing path? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  41:12 So I write a lot of non fiction. My big thing is always talking about mental illness and autism, and I love sharing that stuff, because that is what I'm passionate about. That's what got me into social services. Realized I could do more with this and talking about it, right? So I write a lot about that, but it's heavy stuff, so I do intersperse like kids books in there, just to lighten my mood, and it's fun. So I do have a few kids books out there, but yeah, a lot is mental health. And I actually did write a book about my brother's death. It's called Goodbye Too Soon, and it got into it because of mental health. So my very first book was a book of poetry. The poems were what I had written as a coping strategy. Didn't even know it was a coping strategy at the time, but as a coping strategy as a teenager dealing with all that. So those got turned into my first book, called thoughts of a wanderer. And then from there, I was like, I love writing, and I just kept going. Michael Hingson  42:21 So how many books have you written so far? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  42:24 I got a count, but I want to say over 10. 42:27 Wow. Are they all non fiction? Or have you written any fiction? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  42:32 I wrote one fiction. It's a collection of short scary stories, well, and the kids books, I guess those are fiction too, but I did a collection of short scary stories a few years ago, because I love horror. Michael Hingson  42:47 Stephen King loves you, huh? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  42:49 He was one of the first authors that I actually read the full book all the way through without complaint. Which book I want to say it was it? Oh, it. Michael Hingson  43:04 He's an interesting writer. I I haven't read much of his lately, but I'm amazed. How do people come up with these things? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  43:15 I, I mean, I have some pretty messed up monsters that I had in my book. I don't know how we do it. We our brains are just just coming up. Yeah, our brains are just wrong. Michael Hingson  43:29 I think the first one of his that I read was The shining and then I read Carrie, and then Salem's Lot, and it went from there. But I've just have always been amazed. How do people come up with these concepts? It's just amazing. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  43:45 Yeah, me, for most of the ones that I wrote came from, I'd be walking the dogs, and I was like, oh, that's an interesting tree. It looks like it has a face. And then all of a sudden, this tree that looks cool became a monster. Like, oh, okay, cool. This is where we went with it. And then some of the other stories. My my kid had drawn pictures, and I'm like, ooh, that picture looks like you're harvesting body parts and you're trying to fix stuff. So this is gonna happens. Do you Michael Hingson  44:18 find that your characters end up writing the books. I've talked to authors, and many have said that, that that the characters really create the stories and they write Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  44:30 the books. Yeah, it's hilarious, because when I first started interviewing other authors, and they would say that, because at the time, I'd only really, really written nonfiction, I'm like, Ha, weird. But as I got going and I started writing the scary stories, or a few other short stories that I haven't published, they're just, I just wrote them. I was like, Huh? The characters really do tell you what's gonna happen. This is weird, Michael Hingson  44:56 and if you don't pay attention, they're gonna get you. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  45:00 Yeah, it is the strangest thing, and I it's a phenomenon I don't know how to explain, but they really do. They come to life in your head and they tell you exactly what's going to Michael Hingson  45:10 happen, yeah, which, which, excuse me, is certainly understandable. It makes for a very interesting world. Needless to say, yeah. So you have other books that are coming out, Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  45:27 not right now, other than that one kids book that I'm waiting for the pictures on. What I'm doing right now actually is I am working on turning my book, Goodbye Too Soon, into a screenplay and into an indie film. Okay, how does that work? That's a great question. I'm in the very early stages. I'm in the very early stages. So I am me and my best friend, because she likes to research. She's doing all the research stuff and figuring out that side of thing. I'm focusing on writing the script right now, so it's going to be interesting. It's going to be a learning curve, and as I figure it out more, I might have to come back and tell you, because I'm not 100% sure yet, but I'm going to figure it out because I think it would be so much fun to do, and because it's such an important topic, it needs to be done. We'll see. We'll see what happens. Michael Hingson  46:25 Do you write basically full time, or do you have an addition a full time job, or anything like, I have Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  46:30 a job to pay the bills. I actually really like my job. So I work. I work in an office, and the girls I work with, they are absolutely amazing. They are the reason I like going to work. They get me out of the house, and I get to talk to other adults, other than like I talked to adults here now, but I get to just get out and refreshed, which sounds weird, that work is refreshing, but it's because of who I work with. They're amazing. Be nice to be able to make enough money to pay all my bills through writing. But again, I think I like the whole being able to leave the house. It's kind of nice. And what kind of job do you have? So I do scheduling. Okay, yeah, I schedule different, different lessons and stuff. What's the company that you work for or the office. Um, I don't know if I'm allowed to say it's not that it's it's not that it's confidential, but I don't know what, what their rules are around their marketing so Michael Hingson  47:31 well, not the company. But I mean, what kind of, what kind of of you said, education? Is it involving schooling? Is it it's driving? Oh, okay, all right, all right. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  47:42 But I work in the office. I do, Michael Hingson  47:43 no, no, that's okay. I don't think I could. Yeah, well, that's another story. I can tell you that my opinion is that it will be a wonderful day when autonomous vehicles get to the point where they truly are reliable and we can take driving out of the hands of drivers. A lot of people will hate me for saying that, but it's still true. I am absolutely convinced that the way they drive here in Victorville, I could drive as well as any of the people out there on the road, right? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  48:13 Yeah, sometimes I wonder, and it gives me a heart attack, because I'm like, Oh my gosh, would you like our business card? I think you need to come do some lessons. Michael Hingson  48:21 Yeah, you tell them. One of my favorite comedians is Bob Newhart. Have you ever heard The Bob Newhart driving instructor? 48:28 I have not. Michael Hingson  48:29 Oh gosh, go find it on YouTube. It's called Bob. It's Bob Newhart, the comedian, and it's the driving instructor. It's really hilarious. He's also got a bus driver training school and an air traffic controller, one that's pretty funny, but anyway, yeah, go find the driving instructor. It's, you'll love it, but it's, it is interesting to to see how how people deal with some of these things. And I do think that the time will come when autonomous vehicles truly do come into their own. We're not there yet. We're sort of still on the cusp, and there's a lot to be done, but it will happen, and Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  49:11 they're definitely working on it. Michael Hingson  49:12 They are, and it will it will become a lot better when truly autonomous vehicles work as we want them to, because then we will be able to take driving out of the hands of drivers, and that'll probably be a good thing, so that we won't have nearly the accident levels that we have today. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  49:29 Yes, some of them are quite, quite high and quite nasty. Michael Hingson  49:34 Yeah, well, and we're getting to the point where technology helps in so many ways. So you know that that'll that'll be pretty cool as as we get there. How do you have do you ever use like AI and any of the things that you do with writing? Does any of that help you with ideas? Or do you utilize any of those technologies? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  49:56 Um, so I haven't really used AI for my writing, although. I've used it for my uncle passed away in the summer, and my aunt was like, Oh, can you write a eulogy based on all of these things? And I'm like, sure, hey, chat. GPT write a eulogy with all of this stuff, because I didn't actually have the time to do it or the brain power. So I did that, and it came out, spit out something real nice, and I sent it to her. Oh my gosh, this is amazing. I'm like, Cool. Michael Hingson  50:28 I have used chat GPT to help in writing. I don't want to let it be the writer, but I I'll ask it to write things, and I'll do it three or four times, and I'll take all the ideas that it comes up with and integrate them with my own because I I really need to be responsible for what ultimately comes out. But I think that chat, GPT and the other technologies that are out there do and will continue to help a great deal. I remember the first time I heard about AI, it was when somebody was complaining that students are using it to write their papers, and the teachers can't necessarily detect it, and that's not a good thing. And immediately I thought and said, Well, I don't quite see the problem. What you do is you let the students write their papers using chat, D, P, T, they turn them in. Then you take one day, and you give each student a minute, and you tell them to come up and defend their paper. There you go, without looking at it, because the teacher has it. Either they're going to know the subject or they're not. And I think that's, you know, that's a sensible thing to do. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  51:36 And what I've what I've seen, and the little bits that I've kind of played around with it just to see what it'll spit out. It really only gives you something worth a good mark in school. Say, like, a good grade, if you are giving it the information you want it to have to use, yeah. So you should, you should have already done the research and know stuff, like, I know that you can ask it and say, like, you know, give me some research on whatever topic, but if you've done the research, the paper will actually spit out much better. I find that if you say, I want you to do this, this, this, this, this, and, like, give it a lot of criteria, and then it spits out your paper. So I mean, if kids are gonna use it. They've done the research. They just maybe struggle with their grammar. They like with my kid, that would have helped her immensely. Sure she she knows the facts, but she doesn't know how to write, you know, an essay. Even though we've tried and tried to try, it's just not computing. There's kids out there, right? We talked about dyslexia and stuff like, if kids can do all the research fine and source it somehow and then spit it into this machine so it can come out in a readable paper. I mean, what's to say that's bad? Michael Hingson  52:50 Well, again, what I do is a little backwards from that, because I'll give it a lot of information, and it'll come back, and it'll give me something, and I'll say, give me another one, and I will get five or six of those, and then I will take what I like from each of them and put them together with my own words, because I want it to be my style, and I know that the large language models are getting better at emulating your individual writing style, but still, I want it to be my style, so I will write the final document, but it has contributed a lot of neat ideas and a lot of things to help that make that to actually be something that is sensible, and the articles or the books not well. I haven't used it to write a book, but the articles and other papers and other things I've written with it do come out well, but, but I'm still the one that has to approve it and make it occur. And I realize that somebody who has like dyslexia, it's a little bit different story, or somebody who maybe has autism, they're going to have some problems with it, and I can appreciate that, and they may rely on it more, but you're right. She knows the facts, and she gives it the information she can also figure out how to do it in such a way that she's going to get something that would be written the way she wants it written, exactly right. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  54:08 So I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. I just think we need to use it as a tool, not as a crutch, correct? And when you talk about AI, one thing that I do use, and I absolutely love, so on my podcast, I use Riverside Riverside, will AI generate you like, the little short clips that I can stick on Tiktok and stuff? Oh, it saves me so much time. Most of the time, the clips are awesome. Sometimes I'll be like, and that clips not so good. I'm not going to use that one. But for the most part, it's pretty spot on finding the good clips to use for, like, Tiktok shorts and stuff. So that saves an immense amount of time. I do really like that. AI tech Michael Hingson  54:46 well, and we're all going to, as we go forward, find more and more ways that this technology will help us, but it's still us that has to be in control of it. I'm i. Think we're a whole heck of a long way from sentient computers that are able to do all that. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  55:05 Yes, yeah, we're a little far away from the Terminator era. Michael Hingson  55:09 Yeah, so it isn't going to happen in the in the near term, but, but we'll, we'll get there, and we'll, we'll see some things occurring. It'll just take it a while. But I think that writing is so fascinating. I've now written three books. I love it. I don't, and people have asked if I'm going to write another one. And my response right now is, nothing's coming up, but something else may pop out in the future, and if it does, then we'll do Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  55:37 it exactly. I always, Mickey actually asked me a little bit ago, well, I want to show when your next book is out, and I was telling him about the script idea. We gotta actually talk a little bit more. But he's like, so is you're writing on pause? I'm like, well, not really, because I always have ideas. So like it is, but like it isn't, you know, focusing on one thing, but there's always going to be ideas that are going to generate that I might have to get out onto paper. Maybe not finish, but get out. Michael Hingson  56:06 Yeah. Now we talked about we, we discovered each other through Mickey. Mickey has also been a guest on unstoppable mindset. I don't remember when that episode is coming up, but, but we got him on. That'll be fun. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  56:23 Yeah, Mickey did an episode on my show a while back. Now, he should probably come back and do another one, but he did one a while back. Michael Hingson  56:31 But I enjoy writing. I think it's fascinating. I think it's fun. I believe it's really important to be able to communicate with people. Of course, I've been a keynote speaker now for 24 years, ever since September 11. And I realized somewhere along the line, probably, oh, I'd say seven or eight years ago, it really hit home that we have a whole new generation of people who never experienced and don't know anything about September 11. So what I love to tell people is my job now is to take people into the building with me and take them downstairs, step by step, going through all the things that I experienced, and coming out the other end, and really being able to follow all of that so that they have a true sense of what happened for me, at least in the World Trade Center, and why it happened. The idea being that that helps to teach them more about September 11, teach them more concepts about why it's important to truly learn emergency preparedness and not rely on reading signs and things like that, but learn truly how to have all that information. Because if you have information in your head, and you're not relying on signs, if you truly know it, and you know what's supposed to happen in any kind of given set of circumstances, that helps you control fear and that keeps it from overwhelming you, which is what's really important as far as I'm concerned. And that's what we did with live like a Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  58:01 guide dog, yeah? And that's what we talked about on my show. So everybody go watch Michael's episode on the Ride or Die show, and you'll hear more about it. Michael Hingson  58:07 There you are. See it's important, yeah? Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun. If people want to reach out to you and talk with you, how do they do that? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  58:19 Yeah, so my website is rb, writing.ca and then you can find me. RB, writing.ca RB, writing.ca writing as in, WR, I T, okay. And then I am on Facebook, Instagram, Tiktok, Randy, Lee Bowslaugh, YouTube, you can either do my name or you can do right or die show. And then all the all the podcasting platforms, you can find it on the Ride or Die show, spell for us, B, O, W, s, l, a, U, G, Michael Hingson  58:52 H, bowslaugh. There you go see. So if you had some advice to give to a young person, not necessarily who's dealing with autism or whatever. But if you wanted to impart some lesson for for people to take away from our show, what would it be today Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  59:12 advocate for yourself? That would be the biggest one. It's way harder than it sounds to actually, truly advocate for yourself and keep going until you find answers. If you're feeling like any of the things that we've talked about on the show, right? And I think that's yeah, advocate for yourself. And if you can't, then find somebody that can advocate for you and learn to do it. Michael Hingson  59:40 Yeah, and it's important to do that. And the fact of the matter is, in so many ways, you have to learn to advocate for yourself, because no one else is really going to do it like you can. And a lot of times, no one's going to do it period, because their priorities are all different. So you do need to learn to be a self advocate. Well, Randy, thank you. For being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. Love to hear your thoughts about our episode today. Feel free to email me at Michael H, i@accessibe.com that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and if you would please give us a five star rating, and please review us wherever you're observing our podcast. We value your reviews and your ratings very highly. And also, if you know of anyone who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset Randy, that goes for you as well, we would sure appreciate any introductions. We're always looking for other people who want to come on and help us discover and learn and show others that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are, and you can help make that happen. So I urge you to to do that. We'd love to hear from you, and we value your input and your thoughts very highly. And again, Randy, I want to thank you for being here. This has been fun again. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  1:01:01 Yes. Thank you so much for having me back. Michael Hingson  1:01:07 Thank you for being here with me on unstoppable mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about if you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others. I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hingson.com and download my free ebook blinded by fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening, keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset. You.

Der Iran-Krieg treibt die Ölpreise und schmälert die Hoffnung auf Wirtschaftswachstum. Im Podcast diskutieren Sebastian Matthes und Michael Hüther die Rezessionsgefahr – und welche Reformen jetzt entscheidend sind.

uncategorized sauce talk episode 1 ft michael h by Johnny Touchdowns

Der Iran-Krieg treibt die Energiepreise weiter nach oben. Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther diskutieren über den neuen Gesetzentwurf der Bundesregierung: Können neue Regeln für Benzinpreise den Preisschock abfedern?

What happens when success, hustle, and constant work stop bringing fulfillment? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I talk with marketing strategist and entrepreneur Carlos Hidalgo about business growth, faith, burnout, and the hidden cost of hustle culture. Carlos shares his journey from corporate marketing leader to founder of Digital Exhaust, along with lessons from his book The UnAmerican Dream about work addiction, burnout, and redefining success. Their conversation explores why growth does not need to be complicated, why storytelling builds trust in business, and why boundaries matter more than work life balance. Carlos also opens up about faith, failure, relationships, and the power of honest conversations. You will hear practical insights on leadership, personal growth, community, and building a life that is both successful and meaningful. Highlights: ·  06:04 – Carlos explains how his faith became a personal relationship. ·  17:32 – Why he left corporate work to start his own business. ·  25:40 – His approach to making business growth simple. ·  30:17 – How hustle culture often leads to burnout. ·  42:29 – Why boundaries matter more than work life balance. ·  54:33 – Why real community helps solve loneliness. Top of Form Bottom of Form About the Guest: Carlos Hidalgo is the co-founder and CEO of Digital Exhaust, a growth partner that helps clients make growth simple. Carlos serves his clients as an advisor, consultant, and teacher to ensure they have meaningful engagement with their customers at every stage of the journey and are able to mature and create sustainable growth. Carlos has 30 years of experience working with organizations of all sizes as an advisor, consultant, innovator, and growth expert. He is widely recognized for his expertise in demand generation, marketing, sales, and customer experience and for coaching executives in the areas of leadership and managing change. In addition to his work with his clients, Carlos has won numerous marketing awards and been named to several prestigious industry lists as a marketing leader. Carlos is also the author of Driving Demand, which is ranked as a top 5 marketing book of all time by Book Authority, and The UnAmerican Dream, which was released in 2019. In addition to books, Carlos is a well-known international keynote and TEDx speaker. You can follow Carlos on LinkedIn or on Twitter @cahidalgo Ways to connect with Scott**:** LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlosahidalgo/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/CHidalgoJr Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/cahidalgo_ Twitter/X: https://x.com/cahidalgo About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well, hi and welcome once again to an episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, our guest is Carlos Hidalgo. Carlos has many facets about him. He's a speaker. He deals with growth and growth management and with his company. He tries to make growth simple for the people who are his clients. I'm interested in learning about that, but he does other things as well. He is also involved with his wife and marriage counseling, which is a little bit different than the one I think I find a lot of people to do. So I think we got lots to talk about. So, Carlos, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Carlos Hidalgo  01:59 Thank you for having me. Michael, it's an absolute pleasure. Well, let's Michael Hingson  02:03 start with the early Carlos, why don't you tell us about you growing up and all that sort of thing, and where you came from, where you're headed, or whatever. Carlos Hidalgo  02:14 Sure, I was born one of six children. I was the youngest for about four years, and then my my parents had two more. So I am smack dab in the middle of middle six siblings. Was born in New Jersey, but call where I'm at now home, which is a little town in the Adirondack Mountains. And the reason I call it home, I started coming to camp here when I was five years old. Fell in love with the area, and then my father, in 1983 moved us up here when I was 12, and fell more in love with it. And that lasted for four years. And then my junior of high school, or right after my sophomore year, was told, Hey, we're we're moving I was 16, I was pretty pissed off at the prospect of leaving a place I loved, so I had engineered a plan to stay through my junior and senior high school, which in my mind, made perfect sense in my parents' mind, and for reasons now I understand, because I'm a parent, did not make so much sense, but I came back as often as I could, and then my wife and I moved here back full time in 2021 we also lived here in the 90s for two years, had our first son here so but grew up really charmed childhood was my dad was in advertising, so we got tickets to Great sporting events. We had horses that I took care of, along with some of my siblings, developed a love of the outdoors, which I still hold, which is one of the many benefits of living up here again. And so, yeah, pretty, pretty much, early childhood was, you know, be outside as much as I can run around school work wasn't my strong suit, but I muddled through and I Michael Hingson  04:04 made it. Where in New Jersey were you born? Carlos Hidalgo  04:07 Was born in a little town called Randolph in northern jersey. Spent most of our time in a place called blairis town. Their claim to fame as a prep school called Blair Academy, which I believe is still there. And then, I believe it was the original Friday the 13th was filmed. Part of it was filmed in Blairstown. Yeah, yeah. So I'm dating myself just a little bit. Michael Hingson  04:32 Well, we lived in Westfield for six years, so kind of know, New Jersey, but yeah, while we were back there, my wife always wanted to move back to California. She's a native. I was born in Chicago. She wouldn't let me call myself a native, even though we moved to California when I was five. But yeah, it's okay. Carlos Hidalgo  04:50 Sure, yeah, people get a little touchy about the term native or local and how it's defined, right? Michael Hingson  04:55 Oh, yeah, it varies all around the country, but there's. Nothing. You can't say anything bad about Chicago. They have Garrett Popcorn there. If you've never had it, next time we go through O'Hare Airport, you should get some Garrett Popcorn. Carlos Hidalgo  05:09 Okay, I will do that absolutely. Michael Hingson  05:12 Take a memo. Get Garrett Popcorn. It's it's really good stuff. Well, so what did you do for college? Or did you? Carlos Hidalgo  05:21 Yeah, I went to my first year, I went to a school called Word of Life Bible Institute. So it's a one year intensive program, study of the Bible actually here, not far from, literally eight miles down the road here, from where I live now. And at that point, it was really just an excuse to get back to the Adirondacks for a year, but I learned a whole lot. Met some incredible people, some of who I'm still very, very close with today. And then from there, I transferred to Cedarville University in Ohio. At the time I went there, we were about 2500 students. I think today they're closer to 7500 but I met my wife there, which was that, in and of itself, the three years of tuition that I paid as I transferred in, but study Business Communication, again, I wasn't a great student. What I realized is, if it was the things that I really loved to participate in, it was awesome. I had a really great time studying communication and language and how we speak. I was two years on the debate team, which was such a great education in and of itself. But everything else I didn't really love. I just the general ed stuff. I kind of thought, well, if I can skate by and, you know, get that, get the passing the credits. So that's really how I want about it. And the reality is, the way things are taught today, I'm a very visual and hands on learner, and so to sit in a classroom and try to take notes and go through theory and things like that just makes my brain hurt a little bit. So I but I but I finished. I got the degree and made some great friendships in the process. Michael Hingson  07:04 Well and clearly, based on what you did for your first year, you have a Christian orientation, or definitely a god orientation as well. Carlos Hidalgo  07:15 Yeah, that's that's really my operating system. Michael, I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. I base my life on it. I spend time in it each and every day. And so what's interesting in that regard is, yes, I went to the Bible Institute. So while I had a lot of head knowledge about the Bible and God and Jesus and all these things, it's really been in the last 10 years that I would say I had a deep, meaningful relationship with them, and that came as from a lot of experience in my life, a lot of dark, dark moments in my life that were self induced, unfortunately. But really, what it's done for me is it's just radicalized who I am, changed my heart. And so it's gone from a having a head knowledge of it to a real experience and an engagement with Christ through His Word and through prayer. Michael Hingson  08:11 Yeah, head knowledge is is a fine thing as far as it goes, but there's nothing like personally experience coming closer to whatever it is, including dealing with believing in God and really recognizing what what God brings. And my last book that I wrote that was published last year, called Live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith very much deals with with a lot of that, the whole concept of the value and the power of personal knowledge, as opposed to just head knowledge. I talk about the World Trade Center a lot in that book, specifically in terms of what I learned and how I developed a mindset to be able to control fear, rather than letting it be the thing that overwhelmed me or overwhelms anyone and and I've had a couple people on this podcast who talk about it, and they say the same sort of thing that you did. It's not about knowledge that you sort of intellectually know. It's what you really know. So people, for example, in evacuating the World Trade Center, would look at signs, and they would follow those and a lot of people were able to do that, but that's still not knowing that is really relying on something else that you may or may not really have access to. So True Knowledge is the only way to go Carlos Hidalgo  09:38 100% and I find that I gather that through experience, yeah. And so the example I use is, if you ask me about my wife, you know, do you know Suzanne? I would say, Oh, yeah. You know, blonde hair, blue eyes, about five, five. Funny, smart. I could tell you all the different facts, but there's a big difference when you sit and you get to experience being with her, seeing. Her, how she interacts with people, how she treats others, all of those things. Take that knowledge and actually make an experience an experience, yeah. And so that's been the difference for me, as it regard, in my relationship with Jesus Christ, yeah, well, Michael Hingson  10:14 and Suzanne, so that's good. Carlos Hidalgo  10:17 Well, so absolutely, 31 years and we're still going. There you go. Michael Hingson  10:21 Well, keep going. That's that's cool. That's great to have that kind of a relationship. It's all too often we don't see a lot of that in marriage, and just people get married without knowing and that leads to all sorts of potential challenges. So it's good to really get to know someone Carlos Hidalgo  10:41 absolutely, yeah, I'm still, still learning, still studying her and learning all I can, after 31 Michael Hingson  10:46 years, and she is too Yes, she is. Carlos Hidalgo  10:49 She does a phenomenal job. Michael Hingson  10:52 So what did you do after college? Carlos Hidalgo  10:56 After college, I actually moved back up here, where I'm at now. Worked for two years for Word of Life, the same group that ran the Bible Institute. So then, actually, unbeknownst to me, i My heart was really at that point, I wanted to go into law enforcement. My father in law was an FBI agent for 30 years. I'd always been intrigued by law enforcement, so I thought going into and getting a job for a few years, cutting my teeth while I filled out a resume. So started working in the office of donor development or advancement, and that was the first time I really started to get any exposure to anything formal, marketing wise. In the meantime, applied to the FBI, never went anywhere. Ended up applying again, never went anywhere at that point. Then we moved to we left here after two years of marriage and having one child. We moved to Michigan for a brief time, and then we went back to down to from Michigan. We went to Dallas, where we lived for 13 years, and I worked while I was still trying to get into law enforcement. I kept getting marketing jobs and companies. So eventually I gave up the dream of law enforcement and just followed what's unfolding and had a pretty good career in two software companies as a director of marketing to cut my teeth and learn what global business was all about do a lot of travel, which helped me career wise wasn't so great home wise or parent wise when you're away from your kids, but it's been my career for 30 plus years. I've had a heck of a career doing it and very grateful for it, but I still still get intrigued at the whole concept of law enforcement, but I'm afraid I'm a little too old at this point to start down that path. Michael Hingson  12:47 How come you kept not getting anywhere with it? Carlos Hidalgo  12:51 Well, I did get to a point where the FBI I took a test when we lived in Dallas, and just they called after said I had scored well, which made me chuckle, thinking back to my college days of test taking, but and then they said, Hey, do you speak Spanish, which I do not, despite my name, which is very Spanish, Carlo. And they said, Okay, well, we'll keep your we'll keep your application on file. Let you know if anything changes. And that was the last I heard. So at that point, I just thought, okay, I can keep pushing this and trying. But again, as things started to unfold in the software world, the jobs that I had took care of my family. They provided well for us. They gave me opportunities to learn new things, try new things, opportunity to, like I said, international business, which I never done before. So at that point, I just thought, you know, I'm kind of seven, eight years into this thing. What does this look like going forward? And then are we going to have to just hit reset in all facets of our lives, financially, where our kids are settled, for me to go into law enforcement. So I abandoned it, and I'm okay with that. I think it would have been a phenomenal career. I would have loved it, like I said. I'm still intrigued by it, I still have great respect for it, but it just wasn't in the cards for me, and I'm okay with that. I think sometimes the way we grow is through the death of a dream. Michael Hingson  14:21 Yeah, I know I've always been intrigued by law and law enforcement, and I know that they're never going to hire me, and now they won't, right, but, but they wouldn't hire me, but I took, actually, some courses in college dealing with police and other things like that, because I was, and still am fascinated by it, and I have a great respect for the law. And I I admire good lawyers who are knowledgeable, who really are in it to deal with the law. And you can tell those from the typical ambulance type chaser who manipulates, but, but. I really appreciate the law. I in my life have had the opportunity to be involved with some efforts of the National Federation of the Blind, where we've gone several times to Washington to meet with congressional types. And so I've met some interesting people, met Ted Kennedy, met Tip O'Neill when he was still speaker, Senator Saugus from Massachusetts and others, and found and through them, got to meet some people who were truly committed to what they were doing. They weren't in it for the power. They were in it to try to really help the country and help their individual constituencies in their states and so on. It's a lot of fun. Carlos Hidalgo  15:47 Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure it was, I that's quite a roster of people you've been able to engage with, and I'm sure, no doubt, influence well. Michael Hingson  15:57 And we were there to talk about legislation that we needed. But I'll never forget first time we went in and we met Paul Tsongas. We talked about what we wanted to talk about, and he said, Well, it's the end of the day. What are you guys doing now? And we said, well, we're just going to go back to the hotel. And he said, You got a few minutes talk to you about Massachusetts. Well, we ended up staying for two hours. It was a lot of fun. Carlos Hidalgo  16:19 Wow, yeah, that is a lot of fun. I had an opportunity a number of years ago to do a tour of the West Wing, which was just phenomenal. So when you get, when you get those opportunities, I don't care what side of the aisle you may sit on or are partial to, the answer is yes, take it, because you learn a whole lot, and it's it gives you a whole new appreciation for our country. Michael Hingson  16:40 Well, 20 years ago, I was invited to come back and meet George W Bush because a congressman I had met was fascinated by my story and the story of my guide dog, Roselle, and he arranged for us to meet George W and we went back. It was supposed to be a brief, like two minute just photo op. This ended up being like a 15 minute conversation, and then it was a lot of fun. And I hope that we inspired him some, and we made a difference. And, you know, that's always a good thing. Carlos Hidalgo  17:13 Yeah, at the end of the day, right there people just like us. They are, I think the and I've heard that a lot about George W is his investment in people where he knew his you know, everybody in the staff that he knew their names, he knew about their families. So it doesn't surprise me that a two minute Meet and Greet was extended a little bit. Michael Hingson  17:34 We kept the Italian Prime Minister waiting while we finished our conversation, as it turns out, that's fine, Carlos Hidalgo  17:42 but it was good. There you go. There's your there, there's your the two truth and the lie icebreaker that they have. You do sometimes. There's, you can work that in, Michael Hingson  17:49 I could work that in, yeah, that would be, yeah, I should do that. Well, it was, but it was, it was, it was very enjoyable to be able to do that. Well. So now, so when did you start your own company? That's been a little while, at least. Carlos Hidalgo  18:04 Yeah, I started my first company that I started, I co founded with my brother. In 2005 I was working at the software company, and I just, I started to just have an edge of, you know, I should start something. I don't know what that looks like. And I remember one time just talking to my wife, and I said, I don't want to be 7580 years old. And think, what if, yeah, and my wife is very practical. And she said, Okay, so go for it, and if it doesn't work, just go get another job. And when she broke it down like that, I just thought, wow. Okay, she, I think she believes in me more than I do. So in 2005 I left the software company and we started a agency. And really, at that point for me, the Yes, I wanted to start my own company and see if I could do it. But the the big driving factor was my at that point, I we had four children, so we have four, and they were all pretty small, and I was traveling all over the country, and I didn't want to miss their childhood. And I remember coming home from trips and hearing conversations or seeing things that that I wasn't a part of, and I thought this, this isn't right. I need to be here. I need to be home. So I went to the software company, asked them what they thought they became my first client, and I did that for from 2005 to just early 2017 when I resigned my position as CEO there just to get my life back and kind of hit the reset button again, but this time, I meant it, so I left, and they're still going. But that was my first foray into entrepreneurship, and I just kept doing it since I started another consultancy, and now this is my third one, and also been part of about two to three other companies that. We launched, but never made it. So I enjoy the whole process. I love it, but, yeah, it's, I don't know. I mean, I will never say never, but the idea of not working for myself seems rather foreign to me. Michael Hingson  20:16 So the first company you had for 12 years, what did that do? Carlos Hidalgo  20:21 We were a mark. Marketing Yeah, we were a marketing services company. So we worked with business to business companies to help them in their demand generation, acquiring new customers and also customer growth. So that's really where a lot of my career has been sent, centered right, helping companies design them strategies, everything from content to technology to developing personas and putting together strategies on how to reach them when they're looking for something to buy that that client offers. Michael Hingson  20:52 Okay, well, that makes sense and certainly a worthy thing to do. So, when did you form your current company, digital exhaust, which is a very clever name, you'll have to tell me about that. Carlos Hidalgo  21:04 Oh yeah, there's a little bit of a story behind that. So I was working in 2022 early 2022 I had an offer to go be the Chief Revenue Officer of another agency, which I my wife and I talked about it, we prayed about it, and I had a really, really close friend of mine who was their chief strategy officer at the time, so the ability to work with him, stay in the industry and work with some really good clients, I jumped at, so I took that role over that role lasted eight months. I won't get into all those details of why? Never, never, really did get a clear answer. The answer I was given, not exactly. The numbers didn't the number. I'll just say the numbers proved otherwise. All that said that came to an end in 2023 I believe. Yeah, yeah, 2023 and so February, 23 so at that point, I was like, Okay, well, what do I do? I can try to go get a job, which I did. Nobody was really interested in, you know, early 50s, guy coming in. So, you know, did the interview thing. And then I just thought, Well, why don't, why don't I just bet on myself again and go for it. So at that point, the my friend who was the chief strategy officer, he had also left, so he and I started talking and thought, why don't we just do this together? You know, services he loves to implement, I love to sell. Let's just see if we can make a run at this. So here we are now. It'll be four years in or three years, I guess, in February or April of 26 and we're still alive to talk about it. And so that's how it came to be. It was really just, I've done this before. There's no security, no more security. I believe in working for somebody else than working for yourself. So bet on yourself and put out your shingle and see what you can make happen. Michael Hingson  23:06 Where did the name digital exhaust come from? That's a clever name. Carlos Hidalgo  23:10 Oh, thank you. We were, we were batting around so many different names, and we just had a thing, I think we had a running Google Sheet, like, let's just throw names up there. And then I was listening to a recording of a vendor that we had done work with in our early days, and he was talking about how you can track the digital movements of someone. And he said, You know, so basically, you know, they're leaving behind their digital exhaust. And he used the term twice. So I called my then partner, Tracy, and I said, Hey, what do you think about the name digital exhaust as a company? And he was like, Oh, I love it. So I said, Well, before we that, we have to call Dan and see if he would be okay. So I did some looking, you know, the whole trademark search, and when I told our partner about it. He said, Oh my word, I love it. He said, Never, never even thought that that could be a name, but if you guys want it, go for it. So we took it and it is, it's, it's, we think it's pretty unique, and it also describes a lot of what we do with customer data to get an understanding of how do you engage with them, where are they, and how are they going to interact with you and your brand? How so well. Again, he was right. I can look at your digital footprint or your digital behavior. I can see what sites you've visited, what web pages you visited, how much time you spend on a product piece, how much content you engage so I can look at all of that behind the scenes. Start to score that if you're an account that I want to go after, or if I'm a lead based sale, that gives me a lot of intelligence on what you're interested in. And then there's ways to kind of, from a insight perspective, determine where you are in that journey, whether it's your four. First time as a purchase, you're a current customer and you're interested in purchasing something else. So it gives us a lot of insight into that, so that I can message you or I also know when should sales place a phone call to you and start that conversation. So that's why we use the term digital exhaust, because, again, it's a lot of what we do and how we use our customer data. Michael Hingson  25:20 Several years ago, I watched a 60 Minutes program, gosh, I don't know it's actually a number of years ago. And one of the segments there was a guy who was on he was a private detective, and what he said was, I can tell more about you than most anyone else can simply by looking at your trash. And in fact, I can't remember if it was Mike Wallace or not. Who was the interviewer, but they went on investigated some trash cans and and this guy could just tell you so much about your entire life just by looking at what was in the trash can. It was really pretty amazing and and I don't mean that in any way as a negative thing, but it's very clever that people have that insight. So I appreciate what you're saying about digital exhaust. It makes perfect sense. Carlos Hidalgo  26:17 Well, good. I'm glad it does. It means we've hit the mark. I'm not I will say this. I'm not going to go through my customers trash, but I am not surprised that if you did how much you could learn about somebody, 100% but Michael Hingson  26:30 you do look at their their digital footprint and so again, and it makes perfect sense that you can learn so much that can help you, help them grow. Yes, absolutely gives incredible insight. You talk about making growth simple, tell me more about what that means. Carlos Hidalgo  26:51 Yeah, you know, I've been in the space a long time, and that really came a couple years ago. We started seeing different models that would come up different frameworks that would come out from different vendors. Started talking, you know, I talked to a lot of chief marketing officers in my role, and over and over, what we saw was just complexity of taking terms that everybody would know and applying a new term or creating a new term to replace the old term, because you wanted to stay edgy. And I finally had a CMO who said to me, this is all so complex. Is there any any organization out there, or any way to just make this simple? And I thought, Gee, I kind of been thinking the same thing, because I see all these talking heads out there on LinkedIn and at these conferences showing these overly complex, overly engineered models, and I'm like, You got to be a PhD to implement that thing. And again, I'm also a pretty simple guy. I don't think growth needs to be all that hard if you know your customer, what they need, when they need it, and why it's important to them. I'm going to be able to sell you quite a bit. I'm also going to be able to be a better marketing, better partner to you, because I'll be the first one to be able to tell you you don't need that, or you need that, but you shouldn't get it from us, and here's why. And so we just started saying, You know what? Let's create with our models. And we have models and we have frameworks, but we want them to be kind of what Apple is, right, really innovative, where you can use it. You don't necessarily have to have someone to guide you through it. And so let's just make it as simple as possible for our clients to grow their companies without these over engineered models, which mostly a lot of them are created to sell stuff. And while we want to sell stuff more, so we want to help customers be better at what they do. And so that's why we say is we want to help you make growth simple, cut through the clutter, get to what matters and move forward. Michael Hingson  28:58 Yeah, which makes a lot of sense. By by any standard, how do you find storytelling comes into what you do and how you interact with customers? Carlos Hidalgo  29:11 Yeah, it's really important in the beginning, right in the beginning stages. Anytime I'm engaging with you, if I'm a consumer and you're a brand, I want to your brand should tell a story about who you are, the value that the customer gets when they're going to interact with you, they're going to use your product, what you stand for. Can they trust you? Trust is huge. Right now. We live in a trust economy. I want to know that if you say something, I can you're going to stand behind it. So all of those things are come through in terms of story. Now, what I've always said is I think that story is important. But when it comes to now, especially in the world I live in business to business, once I get into maybe I want to purchase something for you or purchase your product. Now I. Moves from a story to a dialog because I started, I start need, needing to know, what are you interested in? What are your challenges? What are your needs, what are your pain points? And as you're telling me that I can respond more in a conversation, I can still use parts of the story, but now it's a two way dialog, even in a digital world. So if I can create that, that's fantastic, then you become my customer. And now I still want to keep telling you stories. I want to tell you a story about why you can trust us. I tell you a story about how I interact with you. I tell you a story about how I deliver service and how I help you onboard. So all that bleeds into what we call, you know, what I call the big customer experience, from brand engagement to what I'm buying to now that I become a customer, all of those are experiential factors that we have to consider. Michael Hingson  30:49 Well, yeah, and I think that storytelling is a very significant part of selling and sales, because it's part of what really helps create the trust, because people can see through it, if you're just blowing smoke or playing games. Carlos Hidalgo  31:05 Yes, they can absolutely. And you only get one shot if that's what you're gonna do only, yeah, once I realized that forget it, I'm not coming back, that brand loyalty is away real quick. Michael Hingson  31:16 Yeah. So do you encounter in the interactions that you have with people with a lot of burnout or who are going that way. Carlos Hidalgo  31:25 Oh yeah. It's, it's something that I went through in 2016 it's, it's a, I mean, the World Health Organization, whatever you think about them, they definitely have listed it as a illness or as a condition. So it's something that I've seen. It's something that I've written against quite a bit. I don't think we need to get there, but I also think it is part of the consequence, or the outcome of when we make work center of our universe, and we make work our God, when that's going to happen then, yeah, you're going to experience burnout. And I think burnout comes in different flavors, but I see a lot of people who are going through it, trying to work through it, trudge through it. I heard the term the other day, manage burnout. I don't know why you would want to manage burnout. I think you need to take steps to avoid burnout, to avoid it. Michael Hingson  32:17 Yeah, why is it so many people face it, and are experiencing burnout is because they just deal with work, they don't relax, or what. Carlos Hidalgo  32:27 Well, I think there's a lot, lot in that. I've done a lot of study, and that was the topic of some of the topic of my book that I released in 2019 the UN American dream is, I think we, especially in our Western culture, we have adopted this idea that the busier I am, the more important, the more valuable I am, and so and the reality is, none of us are well wired to go, go, go, go, go. Rest is actually a gift from the Lord. And you know, I think very few of us. But you know, think about the last time you talked to anybody. How are you? Oh, I'm so busy. We love to be busy. We love to have jam packed calendars, because it makes us feel good. The other part of it is when you think about workaholism, you know, that is an addiction. And the only time in my experience, we engage with or become addicted to something, it's when we're trying to avoid something else. And so think our workaholism, which leads to burnout, is right up there with our rising rates of anxiety, of depression, of loneliness, because we have bought a false narrative that if we go, go go, we jam pack our calendars, we work like and work like crazy until we hit some imaginary number or we can call it quits. That's what life is all about. And I just sit there and you know, my number one question to people who are running that race is, how's it working for you? You don't seem really happy right now, you don't seem fulfilled, and you're living on the promise of some day and some days, not a day in the week, right? Michael Hingson  34:03 I People ask me, How are you all the time? And my response is something actually that I borrowed from somebody else. I just say, I'm lovely. Yeah, I get lots of reactions from that. It's kind of cute, but it's great. You know, I I agree with you, there is a there's a need and a time, and it's appropriate to not work all the time. Yes, we we don't ever take time even just to sit and think about what we did today. We don't take time at the end of the day to go in our own brains. How did this work out? How did that work out? Why didn't this work? Why did this work? What could I do to make it better and then listen for answers? It's like praying. So many people, when they pray to God, they pray to Jesus and so on. They spend all their time praying and saying what they want, never realizing God all. And he knows that, yeah, when are you going to start listening for answers and really listening? And that's, that's the challenge that I see so often people don't listen, and the answers are always there. They're in their inner the the inner voice that they can hear if they but practice well. Carlos Hidalgo  35:17 And I think to part of that is you need to be still, right? And we see that in scripture where we're told be still and know that I am God, if I mean there, there. We have so much noise and so much input with our phones and constant, you know, interaction and constant noise. We don't give ourselves the ability to sit and think and process, to just to be still. And that is something that I would say, really, for me, over the last decade, has come into focus of I enjoy my downtime. I enjoy the silence that I it's one of the reasons when I run, I don't run with headphones. In my own little world, in my head, praying, thinking about things. There are times I'll drive in the car without the radio on, just in silence, and I tell people, then they look at me like, I have three heads. Yeah, I'm like, oh, it's I am so much better for it, because I'm no longer living life reactively. I'm able to live life in a way that brings me a lot of peace, a lot of joy, a lot of happiness. And when I work, I work really, really hard, but it's definitely not the center of my universe. Michael Hingson  36:27 I know people think I'm crazy, but I can go days without looking well, not days. I'll go a day. I do it volitionally, but I can go quite a while without looking at text messages, and when I do, their message is there sometimes, but I know that I could actually go for a considerable length of time without needing to carry my phone around. Now, the only reason I do carry it around, I mean, clearly some phone calls can come in and so on, but I use other tools on it that you have access to in other ways. So I use it for those things. But the bottom line is, is that I don't need to have this phone with me to stay in touch with people all the time. So if I carry my phone more often than not, I will be in a hotel room listening to something on the phone and, sure, relaxing, rather than all the other things that one could do with it well. Carlos Hidalgo  37:25 And the number of people that I talked to and research shows this that, you know, the last I saw was over 60% it's the first thing people do when they wake up is they reach over and look at their phone and I say, sit there and say, What is so important that you can't even wait 15 minutes from the time your eyes open. But we've become addicted. We've come addicted to the noise, to the constant, go, go, go. And then, you know, we have a friend of ours last year was just, I'm so busy. I'm so busy. Told my wife, over the next three months, I only have this one day I can do lunch. And then you start realizing, like, Well, really, that's, that's how you want to live your life over the next 90 days, you only have one day. Now, I didn't believe it when I heard that. I don't think they were trying to make excuse, and I don't think lying. I think in their heads, they really had this belief of, oh, I can. I've only got one day out of the next 90, but we've weed ourselves into believing that this is how we should be living life. Yeah, and it's not how I want to live life. I'll work hard, I'll put everything I've got into my clients and my business and things like that, but I don't want to be that strapped. I was that strapped one time, time wise and work wise, and it made me absolutely miserable. Mm, hmm. Michael Hingson  38:45 I know when I wake up in the morning I do reach for my phone right at the beginning. One of the very first things that I do is reach for it to see what the temperature is outside, to see what the temperature is your house, to see whether I want to turn the heater on, you know, but I don't look at messages. I don't need to do that. I'll do it eventually, but, you know, I So, as I say, I use it for other tools, but I use the phone, because that's the tool that's available to me that gives me that information, and it'll help me decide, do I want to turn the heater on, or do I want to turn the air conditioner off? And that's what I do. And then I put the phone down, and I start visiting with the dog and the cat, and we have conversations which is, which is kind of fun, Carlos Hidalgo  39:29 but yeah, you get to enjoy life. Michael Hingson  39:32 I remember, remember the old technology town? Now it's old Blackberry. Oh yeah, the black and Research In Motion. There was one night when Research In Motion lost communications with all of the blackberries, and every BlackBerry went dead, I think, for about 12 hours. But I heard that even during the time when that occurred, people committed suicide because they had no way to look at their blackberries. And. Get information. And I always thought you're that dependent, that you can't cope for a while, especially at night without that information. Carlos Hidalgo  40:09 Come on. Yeah, it's staggering. The number of, again, over 50% of people said that they would be panicked if they want an app without their phones and so and again, I used to, I used to live that way. So I understand it to a degree, but, well, I understand it. Yeah, I also tell people you don't have to live that way, because people i The people I know who live that way, don't seem very content or fulfilled, right, right? Which is really the issue, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely, because we only go, we only get one shot at this life, and I want to make the most of it. Michael Hingson  40:43 Make growth simple. Carlos Hidalgo  40:46 That's right, personal, personal and business wise, right? Michael Hingson  40:49 Personal and business wise. So what is hustle culture? Carlos Hidalgo  40:54 Well, hustle culture has been promoted by a lot of folks, a whole lot more well known that I am, you know, where Kevin O'Leary for Shark Tank, Shark Tank talks about, you got to be willing to work eight days a week, you know, and give everything you've got, you know. Gary Vaynerchuk talks about, you know, go, go, go, go. And, you know, we just see it out there of this, you've got to be willing to go above and beyond. If you want to have success, if you want to make this money, you've got to just make sure you're willing to hustle at all costs, which to me, there's a place for that. As I said, when I'm working I hustle. I work hard. I get in a zone. I kind of block everything out and and there are some weeks where we require over and above it. You know, 16 or a week is is not something that has never been done. But the difference is, there's a couple of differences. Is I'm going to work hard because that's what I'm told to do. In Scripture, it says that with everything you do, do it with all your might and do it to the glory of glory of the Lord. So I'm going to do that. Plus work was one of the first things that God ever created. He told Adam in the garden, I want you to work now, what we also see is that it was cursed when man sinned, and it was part of the curse in the garden. But I do believe work is noble. I believe it's valuable, I believe it has so many things that can teach us. So I'm working. I'm hustling hard when I'm working, but this idea that I need to give everything I have to my business so that I'm successful. Well, what about our relationships? What about our own our last word, too, right? Our own physical health? What about my marriage? All of these things that require work yet, you know, you got a guy like Grant Cardone talking about 95 hour work weeks. That's insanity. Yeah, at what point, you know, so to me, I really believe, and I've had some people who've argued with me over this. If you want to know what the object of your affection is, show me where you're spending the most time and attention. And it's not time or attention, time and attention, right? I cannot. I cannot be, quote, unquote, working, but I can be with my wife, but my brain is working. My brain is thinking about my work, thinking about my business, thinking about my career. So what good is it to her if I'm there or not? Yeah, I'm not investing in that relationship, and that is just as much work as anything else. And I would I would say the rewards are better and the gratification that much deeper. So can work life balance actually be attained? I don't believe in work life balance. I believe in boundaries, and maybe I'm splitting hairs, but when I see that, over 70% of people say that work life balance is unachievable. It tells me it doesn't exist. It's also the only place in our lives where we talk we try to separate work from life. Nobody talks about finance life, business, kids life, business, marriage life, business. But we talk about work life balance. Now I understand we spend a lot of time at work in our modern day culture, but if I can decide that I'm going to put boundaries around the things that matter most to me, so like work, like my relationships, like my physical, mental and emotional health, my spiritual health, and that's how I've started to live life. Is instead of trying to balance everything, I'm going to set boundaries. So what does that look like? Well, the first thing I do in the morning is not check the phone. I get up, I pray. I have coffee with my wife. Sometimes we have really deep conversations. Sometimes we look just let the caffeine kick in and let it wake up, and then we set time in prayer. So every day, pretty much between 815 and 830 I'm at my desk ready to work, but I've put a boundary around that morning time, which allows me to start the time with with my Bible and with my wife from 830 To about 1230 I'm locked in. I am working. There's a boundary around there's a boundary. And then about 1230 to one, about two o'clock, that's my workout. Either go to the gym or I go for a run, come home, make my protein stuff, and then I'm back working again. And so and then when I'm done work, between 530 and six, I shut it down. Work is over, and now it's my personal life again, and whatever that looks like, and some of that is seasonal, because of where I live, in the summer, it'll get stay light till 930 and the winter, it gets dark by 430 there's quite a disparity. But because I have those boundaries, I know that I'm able to bring the best of myself to each of those areas of my life, and that is far easier than balance. And when one of those boundaries needs to move, I get to have a conversation. Hey, I've got a call tonight overseas. Or do we have anything? Are we good if I take this call at 730 at night? So I take the call at 730 at night, but I have that discussion, and it's it takes more effort to move a boundary, takes very little effort to get knocked off balance. Michael Hingson  46:05 Yeah, and I think that makes perfect sense. I know for me, when Karen was here, we we enjoyed breakfast and we enjoyed dinner, and I think there's a lot of value in that. Now, I was always the earlier riser, but partly because I worked for companies that kind of required that. That is to say I worked, for example, when I lived in the east for California companies. So I ended up being there later. But when I worked in the West, calling the east, I had to be in work by six, because that's what I needed to do. But we agreed on that, and I hear exactly what you're saying. The fact of the matter is that you've got to really make some decisions, but if you're in a relationship, then you both have to agree and make the decisions together, which is what really should happen 100% Carlos Hidalgo  46:58 and those boundaries will change. I mean my boundaries now that I'm an empty nester, you know, had I lived this way 15 years ago, would have looked far different because I still had children at home. And so the boundaries can shift and change. But to your point, you have to talk about that. And what I have come to believe is that if I'm making those decisions in regards to my business, my job, my career, and I'm not having the conversation with my significant other, then I'm not I'm not sacrificing anything. I'm just selfish. And yet, what we see is, Oh, you got to sacrifice for your business. I've said to couples before, if you and your wife believe and want to say, hey, we want to go build this thing and we want to go sell it so we know the next five years we're hardly going to see each other, and we're both on board with that, and this is what we want. Go in peace. I think you're nuts, but Go in peace, but still, you made the decision together. That's right, and that's the difference. And I find that a lot of people do not do that, and I also think it adds to the stress and the loneliness and the anxiety and the depression is because we're chasing something that is so fleeting, and no matter what Empire we may build professionally, we can't take it with us, right? Michael Hingson  48:13 And that's something that I wish more people would truly realize. It would make for a much happier world. Carlos Hidalgo  48:21 It would. But the unfortunate part is, until the pain and consequence of how you're living outweighs the fear of change, most likely you're never going to do anything different, right? 48:31 So tell me, Carlos Hidalgo  48:32 oh, go ahead. No. Oh, okay, tell me about the Michael Hingson  48:36 title of the book, the UN American Dream. Where did that come from? And why did you name the book that, why was that the title? And so on, Carlos Hidalgo  48:42 yeah, and so in 2016 is when I informed the company that I had started with my brother 11 years earlier that I was stepping down. Didn't really know what that looked like. I literally just one day, through the help of a friend and God's good grace, decided that it was time for me to go. And so the way they wanted to handle it in end of the year, and I think this was like end of October ish, when I made that decision, they said, You know what, let's not announce anything. We don't want our clients to get spooked in q4 so let's wait until the turn of the the new year. So that was into 2017 so I made a post, and I published it in February, 2017 about why I was leaving the company, some of the things that I was learning along the way. And what surprised me was the phone calls and emails I got from colleagues who said, Hey, I just read your post. Can we talk? I'm kind of thinking about the same thing. I'm miserable. And it was one email in particular that still stands out, where he said, I'm miserable. I started to think like, wow, okay, this, this is not just me. My circumstances were different. But this seems to be a problem, so I started to just do some research on our obsession with work, the number of hours we work, this idea of balance and hustle culture. Really immersed myself in it, and I thought this isn't what Truslow Adams meant when he coined the term the American dream. We're killing ourselves for what like, for What's the objective here to just add another zero to my bank account. So as I started to do that research, I saw myself and a lot of that same story, and the mistakes I made and how I was, you know, I had put my business first all the things that we've talked about. And I thought, Man, this is really quite un American, really, because we say we're the land of the free and the home of the brave, but we're not free if we're slaves to our company or our jobs or our careers. So I thought, You know what? I think what we're doing to ourselves is un American, and we're chasing the UN American dream, and that's how I came up with the title, Michael Hingson  51:05 who have been some of your greatest influencers? Carlos Hidalgo  51:09 Wow, I have had a lot. Obviously, my parents have been huge influences in my life. My mom is a fierce prayer warrior, and so I fervently believe I would not be where I'm at today if it wasn't for her and her faithfulness and that and my dad is it has been in marketing and sales and advertising. So learned a lot from him, just in life, and then also in business. There's a gentleman who lives up the street who is kind of like a second dad to me, it's an interesting relationship, because his son is also my best friend, but gentleman by the name of Keith Vander wheel who is salt of the earth, wise, just a wise, wise man has loved me, has when needed, given me a swift kick in the rear end, and just really helped keep keep me focused, and been one of these guys that I can go to, and it's a little about almost 20 years older than I am, so he's one that has seen more and done more. So I'm thankful for that. And then I am very fortunate to have about three or four very, very dear, dear friends, close friends, I mentioned one, Keith's son, who spur me on to greater things, encourage me when necessary, rebuke me and help me. And then I would say, more than anything, my wife, I learned stuff from her each and every day, her steadfastness, Her Grace, her strength of character, she is absolutely the strongest person I know, and has been the biggest influence in my life. Michael Hingson  52:45 I when I was in college, did radio, and I've always liked comedy. I've always liked trying to be a little bit flip and so on, yep. But I will tell you that my wife constantly amazed me. She was pretty much a lot more straight faced and straight laced than i But when she came out with a zinger, it came out of left field, and you never saw coming. She was amazing. Clearly, she observed me a whole lot more than I thought she did, right? Carlos Hidalgo  53:18 And what a gift that is to have. My wife and I were just, we went out for brunch today, with it being the holiday, and I just, I told her, I said, I just love how much we laugh. Yeah, what a gift that is to have in your marriage. We're just laughing together and laughing at each other in a way that's not demeaning, but appreciates our differences. And you know, we can tease each other and enjoy it and know it comes from a place of love, yeah. Michael Hingson  53:42 How do we deal with the epidemic of loneliness in our lives and in our world? Carlos Hidalgo  53:48 Wow, that's a great question. It's first of all, I think it's heartbreaking. I see this especially with men. And statistics would show that that men especially struggle with loneliness. I think number one is we have to come to the realization we were not meant to live in isolation. We are communal beings. God created us to live in community, and we need to step into that. And part of that is letting your guard down and being vulnerable and letting people know where you struggle. Now I'm not talking about wearing your heart on your sleeve and walking right every stranger and spilling, but those closest of relationships, and I can say, you know, for me, when I isolated, that's when I became the worst form of myself and went to places I never thought I would go. And so I think loneliness, first of all, get off social media and your phone, because that's not a connection. No, your friends, all of your 1000s of friends on Facebook, are not true friends. They're people, you know, but they're not people that are going to walk with you through some of the hardest times of your lives, and so find those. Group, find that community, whether it's your church, whether it's a small group that you take part in, whether it's people at your work, but really start to invest in those relationships and bring as much to it as you're expecting them to. And for me, it became just with those closest relationships. I'm an open book. I'm not going to BS. I'm going to talk about what's on my heart, what I'm struggling with, what my victories are, what my low points are. And for me, that starts with my spouse. As I mentioned, I've got three other men in my life that are around my age that I can confide in, be open with, and it's the most freeing, wonderful thing, and it's their relationships that I cherish, and I think that's how we end this cycle of loneliness. But I think a lot of people have been duped. Well, I'm on I've got a bunch of friends online, yeah, you know, put the phone down, get off your social media platform and go be human and interact with other people. Michael Hingson  56:01 It gets back to the same thing we talked about earlier. There's a whole big difference between head knowledge and really knowing. And the friends who are truly your friends are people who you know and who know you and that you can truly be honest with and who will be honest with you. And that is not something that you get from all those Facebook friends. Otherwise, you're being awfully silly, right? Carlos Hidalgo  56:23 And I also think we have to get out of this idea in our culture that if I don't affirm you, I somehow don't like you anymore, this idea that tolerance and love are the same thing. Some of my closest friends have been some of the ones that have come to me and said, Hey, here's what we've observed, and we're sure you don't like that about you, and you know this needs to change. And I love that. I love that I friends who will call my stuff and a wife who will say to me, this isn't the best you like what's going on here? I need that in my life, because if all I want to do is have people pat me on the back and affirm me. I'm going to get entitled pretty quick. Yeah, and that doesn't help at all. Right? How do we bring civil discourse to our society? We're in an environment and in a world where we just don't appreciate or have conversations anymore. How do we deal with that? Well, I think a couple of things. First of all, I think we have to get back to an appreciation for and a respect for human life and humanity in general. Michael, I'm sure if you and I spent a few hours together, we would eventually land on a topic that we don't just that we don't agree on. I can be okay with that, and because if I'm open to say, Hey, Michael is a human being. He's smart. He's overcome incredible odds in his life, and maybe if I listen, I can learn something. Doesn't mean I'm going to come to your side of the the position, but I can at least learn something. But I think systematically, over decades, we've been denigrating the the value of human life. I mean, how many millions of babies have we aborted in this country? You know, your your own story, your parents were told, hey, just put him in a home. He's not going to amount to anything because of his blindness. That's insanity, you know. So today, instead of civil discourse, if I don't like you, I berate you online, I make something up about you, or I kill you. And right so and to tell you how far we've gone, not only does that happen, but then we're gonna have people who celebrate in the murder of whether it's an insurance CEO or a Charlie Kirk, or anybody, and I just sit there and say, Okay, we've we've gotten so far right civil discourse. And so I think number one is just a respect and a value for human life, which we have a lot of work to do there. And then number two, again, back to what I said, this idea that if I disagree with you, I somehow don't love you anymore. And the example I use is this idea of, well, you need we need more tolerance and affirmation. There was a time Michael where my behavior within our marriage just was unacceptable. I mean, I was cheating on my wife, and once she found out she still loved me, but she couldn't tolerate the behavior for reasons that I think I need to explain. So at that point, you say, All right, well, how do those two things work together? If I had kept doing what I was doing, I know for 100% she would have loved me till the day she died, but she died, but she wouldn't have been able to stay with me, because you can't tolerate that behavior. She's supposed to affirm that. And so this idea that because I quote, unquote, love you, I affirm you, I actually make the case that if I love you, I'm going to help you be the best form of yourself, which sometimes means disagreeing with you and pointing things out in your life. That are unhealthy, that's fair. So I think we have to get back to that place of we can have disagreement, still have respect for each other. We can disagree vehemently and still do it respectfully, right? And then at the end of the day, I can respect your position because of who you are as a person, and that you know, giving you the benefit of the doubt. This is a well thought out position. And so, okay, great. We agree to disagree. We can still be friends, yeah? Michael Hingson  1:00:27 And we might learn something, or at least be put on a path where we think about it, and we may discover that, oh, that person's right, correct, yeah, which is Carlos Hidalgo  1:00:36 cool, yeah, and it's not that hard. And again, no, do your do your homework. Know what the real issues are, and stop reading headlines on social media. Michael Hingson  1:00:46 Yeah, really, get away from that. What else should we know about you? Carlos Hidalgo  1:00:50 Well, I'm the father of four amazing kids spread all over the country, ages 30 to 20. He'll be 24 in 10 days, and then an amazing daughter in law, soon to be daughter in law, my second son is engaged, gets married next year. I love the outdoors, anything outside. And I would say, if I want your audience to remember anything, it's that what Jesus Christ has done in my life has been nothing short of amazing. And like I said at the beginning, this is my operating system, and it's who I am and my reason for being in each and every day. And I sit here and I just am in awe of the life I get to live. So I'm very, very thankful and very, very humbled by it all. Michael Hingson  1:01:36 If people want to reach out to you and maybe explore working with your company, using your company to help them. How do they do that? Carlos Hidalgo  1:01:43 Yeah, you can email me at Carlos at Digital exhaust.co it's not.com so make sure it.co's or I won't get it. So you can shoot me an email visit our website, which is digital exhaust.co or looked me up on LinkedIn, just Carlos adalgo, H, I, D, A, L, G, O, right. That is correct. Yeah. I appreciate you getting the name right on the introduction. So thank you for that. I worked at it well. Michael Hingson  1:02:12 I want to thank you for being here. This has been wonderful. And as I tell people all the time, if I'm not learning at least as much as anybody else on this podcast, and I'm not doing my job well, which means I do need to listen and think about it. And I appreciate all the insights that you gave us today, and I appreciate all of you being here and being with Carlos and me. Love to get your thoughts. Please reach out to Carlos. Please email me at Michael H i, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, but most of all, wherever you're listening or watching the pod podcast, please give us a five star review and a rating. We love that. We love your your input, please. Of course, I want it always to be positive, but I'll take whatever you send because we we value that. And for all of you and Carlos, you as well, if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on the podcast. We'd love it if you'd let us know we're always looking to meet more people to help show that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are. And with that, I want to thank you again, Carlos, for being here. This has been absolutely fun. Carlos Hidalgo  1:03:13 Michael, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it. Michael Hingson  1:03:20 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m

Deutschlands Wirtschaft stagniert seit Jahren – und das exportgetriebene Geschäftsmodell gerät durch Zölle, China-Konkurrenz und Demografie ins Wanken. Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther diskutieren, ob eine Annäherung an China strategisch wirklich hilft.

This episode explores the evolving landscape of family law, focusing on parentage, jurisdiction, assisted reproduction, surrogacy, and the future of legal parenthood. It provides a comprehensive guide for students and practitioners to navigate complex legal scenarios.Unlock the secrets of modern family law and discover how the definition of "parent" is changing faster than ever. From the ancient presumption of legitimacy to cutting-edge issues like surrogacy, assisted reproduction, and multi-parent arrangements, this episode takes you deep into the legal transformation shaping families today. If you're a law student, legal professional, or simply curious about how society's evolving notions of parenthood are written into law, this is your essential guide.Imagine navigating a maze of complex statutes, constitutional rights, and interstate jurisdictional conflicts—without getting lost. We break down the key frameworks like the Uniform Parentage Act, the UCCJEA, and the nuances of biological versus intent-based parentage. You'll learn how courts determine legal parenthood through a mix of traditional presumptions, voluntary acknowledgements, and emerging concepts like de facto parenting, where intention trumps biology. We explore landmark cases like Michael H. v. Gerald D., Pavan v. Smith, and Santosky v. Kramer, revealing how courts balance biological facts with social stability and constitutional protections.This episode clarifies the critical distinctions between parentage and custody, explains the often-misunderstood jurisdictional rules—home state vs. significant connection—and highlights what every legal practitioner and student must know to master the topic. You'll discover practical checklists to analyze ART (assisted reproductive technology) agreements, surrogacy contracts, and rights of unwed or non-traditional parents. Whether tackling hypothetical exam questions or real-life dilemmas, you'll leave with a clear methodology to identify, rebut, and litigate parentage issues confidently.Why does this matter? Because the law is shifting toward recognizing a broader spectrum of familial bonds, challenging long-held assumptions about biology. Families are no longer just biological units—they are constructed through intent, support, and evolving social roles. Missing these nuances risks legal errors, missed opportunities for justice, and a failure to protect the best interests of children in complex cases.Perfect for law students prepping for exams, legal practitioners handling family disputes, or anyone interested in society's shifting view of parenthood—this episode arms you with the knowledge, case law, and frameworks to navigate the future of family law. Dive in now and see how society's definition of “family” is being rewritten—one case, one statute, and one decision at a time.TakeawaysParentage law is moving from a focus on biology to one on intent and support.Jurisdictional rules like the UCCJEA are crucial to prevent forum shopping and ensure stability.Surrogacy laws vary widely by state, with gestational surrogacy generally more enforceable than traditional.The marital presumption is strong but has specific time limits and exceptions.Termination of parental rights requires clear and convincing evidence, with high constitutional protections.Key TopicsThe shift from biological to intent-based parentageJurisdictional rules under the UCCJEA and their importanceLegal considerations in surrogacy and assisted reproductionThe significance of the marital presumption and its limitationsProcedural rules for termination of parental rights and adoptionfamily law, parentage, jurisdiction, surrogacy, adoption, UCCJEA, intent-based parentage, assisted reproduction, legal parents, custody

Nach der Nicht-Verlängerung von Ulrike Malmendiers Amtszeit diskutieren Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther, ob der Sachverständigenrat noch unabhängig arbeiten kann – oder ob er zum Spielball der Politik geworden ist.

What if porn addiction isn't actually about sex?What if the real issue isn't lust… or self-control… or willpower?What if porn is a signal — pointing to something deeper in your unconscious mind?In this episode, I sit down with Michael Hallett to explore the root causes of porn addiction through the lens of shame, generational trauma, and the often-overlooked mother and father wounds that shape our emotional patterns.We go far beyond symptom management.We talk about healing at the root.If you've tried abstinence… if you've built strict boundaries… if you've white-knuckled your way through sobriety only to still feel tense, disconnected, or secretly struggling — this episode will challenge and expand the way you understand addiction recovery.Because porn addiction isn't just a behavior problem.It's an unconscious pattern.It's a trauma response.It's often a nervous system regulation strategy that developed long before you ever chose to open a browser.We also discuss how addiction and shame distort your internal sense of worth — pushing you to seek validation, control, achievement, or anesthesia rather than connection and integration.This is about more than quitting porn.It's about restoring emotional balance.It's about healing trauma.It's about reclaiming healthy masculinity.It's about learning how to regulate your nervous system instead of running from your emotions.And it's about understanding that your compulsive behavior may be pointing toward unresolved grief, unmet nurturing needs, and inherited emotional patterns — not moral failure.Interested in learning more about Michael Hallett's work? You can find out more about him at: https://www.michaelhhallett.com/Link to Blog Article for this EpisodeIf you're ready to build the mindset and lifestyle that lead to long-term freedom from porn addiction, join the No More Desire free online community and connect with men who are committed to real recovery. When you sign up, you'll gain access to The 4 Pillars of Recovery Online Course FREE. You can also check out my Free Workshop and Free Ebook, designed to help you overcome porn addiction, rewire your brain, and rebuild your life.Join the free No More Desire Brotherhood and access the February Challenge inside the community. You'll get a free PDF with daily body-gratitude meditations, the Story Over Skin tool, and an optional 10% discount for the full Reclaim Sexual Joy course. Sign up for the February Challenge here!Support the showNo More Desire

Das Jahresgutachten der Expertenkommission Forschung und Innovation rückt sicherheitsrelevante Forschung in den Fokus. Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther diskutieren, warum Deutschland in der Wehrtechnik umdenken muss – und welche Rolle die Hochschulen dabei spielen.

Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther ordnen aktuelle Zahlen zur Armutsgefährdung, Sozialausgaben und zur alternden Gesellschaft ein – und erklären, warum die politische Debatte derzeit am Kern vorbeigeht.

What does it really mean to live with an unstoppable mindset when life keeps changing the rules? In this conversation, I had the privilege of talking with Linda MacKenzie, whose life story spans poverty, reinvention, creativity, faith, and deep personal responsibility. Linda grew up in the Bronx with very little, learned resilience early, and carried those lessons into a life that has included engineering, broadcasting, authorship, and decades of work around positivity, healing, and intuition. As we talked, we explored fear not as something that controls us, but as something that can guide us when we learn how to listen. We also discussed the importance of trusting your inner voice, choosing kindness even when it feels difficult, and staying grounded in truth rather than noise or fear. I believe this conversation offers something meaningful for anyone who wants to better understand themselves, live with greater purpose, and remember that an unstoppable mindset is built one choice at a time. Highlights: 00:47 – Learn how early poverty and cultural diversity shaped a deep respect for people and resilience.03:25 – Understand why looking at a person's heart matters more than labels or background.07:28 – Hear how lifelong learning and creativity fueled constant reinvention.09:56 – Discover why fear can be used as a signal instead of something to avoid.11:22 – Learn how positive thinking became the foundation for long-term impact.13:09 – Understand why truth and responsibility matter more than opinions.17:49 – Learn how intuition and inner voice guide better decisions.22:29 – Discover the two core fears that drive most human behavior.29:11 – Hear how natural healing and mindset work together over time.32:49 – Learn why giving back to the community creates balance and purpose.46:31 – Understand how positivity shapes collective consciousness.58:58 – Learn what it means to live with responsibility, kindness, and self-trust. About the Guest: Linda Mackenzie is the epitome of the multi- hyphenate! A former telecom engineer who designed worldwide communications networks for the airlines and Fortune 1000 companies, Mackenzie is a mainstay in pioneering entrepreneurial spirit. She launched one of the first used PC stores, a datacom consulting firm,a wholesale gift manufacturing company and was the former President of a mind- body supplement manufacturing corporation. Today she heads one of her proudest accomplishments to date, as President of CREATIVE HEALTH & SPIRIT-- a Manhattan Beach based media & publishing company started in 1995 and Founder of HealthyLife. net - All Positive Talk Radio which commenced in October, 2002. Linda Mackenzie is also an author, radio host, lecturer, audio/ TV/ film producer, screenwriter, Doctoral Clinical Hypnotherapist Candidate, a world- renown psychic who has appeared worldwide on hundreds of radio shows, almost all network and cable TV stations and in several award winning documentaries. Ways to connect with Linda**:** Social Media: Twitter: https:// twitter. com/ lindamackenzie; https:// twitter. com/ positiveradio Linked In: https:// www. linkedin. com/ in/ linda- mackenzie- 590649b/ Facebook: https:// www. facebook. com/ linda. mackenzie. 56 Instagram: https:// www. instagram. com/ healthyliferadio/ You Tube: https:// www. youtube. com/@ LindaMackenzie https:// www. youtube. com/@ healthyliferadio Websites: www. lindamackenzie. net, www. healthylife. net, www. hrnradio. com P. O. Box 385, Manhattan Beach, CA 90267 books@ lindamackenzie. net www. LindaMackenzie. net About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:20 Well, hello, everyone, wherever you happen to be, I am Michael Hingson, and you are listening or watching unstoppable mindset. And today, we have a wonderful guest to talk with. She is an innovator by any standard. She's done a lot of different kinds things. She describes herself as a self as a multi hibernate, and I'm gonna let her explain some of that, but I think she's got some interesting and relevant stories to tell, and I'm really glad to have her here. I'd like you to meet Linda. MacKenzie, Linda, welcome to on top of a mindset. Linda MacKenzie  01:58 Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here Michael Hingson  02:02 and you're in Manhattan Beach, right, correct, yeah. So you're not all that far away from me from where I am, up in Victorville. So you know, we could probably open our windows and if we yelled loud enough, we could hear each other. But anyway, tell me about the early, early Linda, growing up and all some of that stuff. Well, that was kind Linda MacKenzie  02:22 of an interesting journey. You know, I was born in the Bronx. My mother was Bostonian, Irish, and my dad was Northern Italian. He had the red hair. My mother had the dark hair, and a typical Italian family, you know, and Irish family, they were constantly fighting, so I delved into books and ran to the church for peace and quiet and and many, many things like that. And we were very poor, you know, we had two dresses. I had two dresses a year. And we, you know, did, had to come home for lunch because we didn't have lunch money and stuff like that. Walked walk that mile to school, too much to school. And we did. I actually lived on the second highest point on the eastern seaboard and so but we grew up really fun. You know, we had when I was growing up in New York, one one street was Italian, the next one was Irish, and the blacks had a street, and the Japanese had a street, and the Koreans had a street, and the Germans had a street. And we all went to school together, and we had one common denominator. We were poor. So when I had sleepovers, I had every kind of person, and we just took each other for who we were and not what we were. And so that was a very nice thing growing up. And because we were poor, we got a lot of advantages. For example, our chorus was in high school, our chorus was taught by Metropolitan Opera singers. So we learned and got many things. And if you were very bright and understood that, we to try and get everything we could do, you know, and use it to improve yourself, it happened so and that's kind of what we did. Michael Hingson  04:14 Well, I think that's really cool, and it's great that you grew up in an environment where everyone understood that we're all part of the same world and and they got along. So you never really had to face a whole lot of or you see other people face a whole lot of that, the kinds of problems that we see in other parts of the world, that everyone worked out pretty well together. Linda MacKenzie  04:35 Yeah, I for us. We did, and I've learned to take people, but I always looked at the heart of a person. You know, I may never have remembered their name, but I would remember everything they said, and I could see their soul. So I I never, ever really saw color of skin or anything like that, and and so it was kind of an enigma for that. I mean, it was. An easy for me growing up. I mean, I had three attempted rapes before I was 11, you know, you had to learn street smarts. You know, you go to church and you got, you're passing the strip club with, you know, all the drunks trying to grab at you at eight years old, trying to pull you away. So, you know, so you learned real quick on what to do and what not to do, and I ended up getting married, put my ex husband through school. He became a biochemist, and went to college for two years, and then quit and put him through school, and then, you know, had a baby at, you know, is married at 19 and had a baby at 21 and, you know, was divorced at 27 and moved to California at well, divorced at 25 I guess, yeah, and then moved to California in 27 and just had a really interesting life. I've been through every strata society, from extremely poor to not so poor to middle class to nouveau riche to old money. I've even jet set. I've done it all so, great experience, no matter what. Did you ever get remarried? Yes, I did. I got I got married to a commodities broker that actually worked at the World Trade Center and in the Mercantile Exchange up there in the comics and the mercantile and, you know, as a matter of fact, there was one day because I was cute when I was, you know, 2728 and my husband was a broker on a floor trader, and he'd say, come in, as it's this particular time, onto the floor, and come meet me on the floor. Well, they didn't really have a lot of women on the floor. Yeah, back in those days. I mean, you know, back in the days where I grew up, my husband had to approve a bank account if I could have a savings account. So you could, you couldn't even, you know, have a credit card if you were a woman, you know. So I went through a lot of stuff. But anyway, I remember walking on the floor, and the whole exchange stopped because he told me wear a mini skirt. And I did. And he went in and did a whole big thing on trading gold, and made a lot of money that day. Walked on the exchange. That's what ended up happening. But Seth, you Michael Hingson  07:17 talked about, you just made me think of something you talked about, you saw people's hearts and so on, but you never remembered their names. I know for six years I worked up at Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael, which is where I've gotten all of my guide dogs. Because after September 11, one of the things they asked me if I come be their spokesperson. One of the things that we heard, and I never believed in until I saw it in action, is that most of the people at guide dogs know every single dog that goes through the campus bills. They'll never remember your names. They don't remember students names, but they remember the dogs, Linda MacKenzie  07:53 right, right? Well, they have intimate Well, I mean, I remembered my mom's name. Well, that's a start. Michael Hingson  08:04 It's just kind of funny, because, you know, the students and the trainers do get along well, but it's just so funny. How so many people up there would remember the dogs. I could go down the corridor going to the Veterinary Clinic, and people would come up and they go, Hi Rosell, or hi Africa. I can't quite remember your name, but it's so funny. That's great, you know, and can't argue with it. It's nice to be remembered somehow, even if it's for the dog. That's right, that's right. So did you just have two years of college, or did you ever finish? Linda MacKenzie  08:39 Yeah, no, I went back and I got a degree, and then I got grandfathered in, and I have a PhD in clinical hypnotherapy, and I have been recognized as a furthering the profession, and also by the American Board of hypnotherapy, they say that I'm the their most creative, prolific minds, which I said, Oh, good. I can use that in PR for at least 10 minutes? Yeah, at Michael Hingson  09:05 least it's something to say. Linda MacKenzie  09:07 Yeah, no, but I've always I was. My Autobiography is called Life is like Girl Scout badges. I'm kind of writing that so and it's because whenever I finish something or did something, you know, I would go on to something else, because I feel life is just a wonderful thing. So I've done many, many things I've done, you know, when I was 18, I won awards from the Metropolitan Museum of Art for my artwork, and I was offered a contract with Columbia Records to sing, but the promoter, the ME TOO movement was back then too, and I chose not to do it, so I didn't go with them, which is a funny thing, because now I'm 76 this year, and I am producing a children's record and next month, and I've written the songs and done the music, and we've got people from Off Broadway and different kinds of people coming together. For for a wonderful record for children on how to stop negative thought, to stay positive and what and how to transcend fear. So that's my project for this year. You know, so, but I've done so many things. I mean, I don't know where you just start. Michael Hingson  10:18 That's fine. Well, I hope to hear the record someday. Linda MacKenzie  10:22 Oh, you will. It's going to be so much fun. It's so much fun. Michael Hingson  10:26 I you know, you know who Neil sadaka is, yes, and he's got this song, Breaking up is hard to do. Well, it turns out that in 2009 he did a whole album for kids. The title song is waking up is hard to do. It's never it's cute. Somebody told me about it earlier this year, and I went and found it. It is a cute album, and it's the melodies are most all of his other songs, but the words are all kids related, and they're very clever. Linda MacKenzie  10:53 Well, this was a book that I wrote about 20 years ago, and and then I and somebody picked it up, and then they said, you need to write a script. And I said, Well, I don't know how to write a script, so I bought a book and I wrote a script, and they it was picked up while Ron Howard had it, and Hawk Koch, who did sliver, and Deborah Johnson, and it's been in play for 20 years. I mean, the last producers that had it was crazy, Rich Asians, and it was never produced, and every single time they wanted to produce it, so I said, You know what, I'm going to write the book myself. So I rewrote the book. My daughter's doing some education. She's a teacher, so she's doing some educational things so that the people in education can, you know, take the chapters and the characters and learn how to be positive from these things and and it's really kind of a fun thing, so I'm really excited about it. So I just said, I'm not going to wait for them. I'm going to do it because the kids need it now more than ever. They just get away from that social media and to really start connecting and to understand that it's not the witchcraft, it's not the, you know, the social media that, or you know what it is, is your own mind and your own self, and using the quality of your mind and understanding that and moving through it and having a Positive attitude that will get you so far in life, and that's what my goal is, is to just, you know, I've been doing that for almost, I don't know, 40 years. Is my whole goal was truth and positivity. So Well, there Michael Hingson  12:33 you go. By the way, since you have written books, I would appreciate it if you would email me and attach pictures of the book covers, because I'd love to put them out as part of the show notes. Linda MacKenzie  12:45 Okay, great. That would be great. I have four books out. I I had started a positive Talk Radio Network back in 2002 and you know, we're going to a lot of we go. We have 45 hosts. It's live. We do podcasts, and we've been doing podcasts since 2004 if you can believe that, and we were pioneer in internet radio and so and that's because I was an engineer for 18 years, and I was the first woman Datacom engineer in any airline in the world, and designed stuff for Continental Airlines and Western airlines and international airlines and things like that. And, you know, air to ground, radio and right go to the when you go to the airport, if you use computerized tickets, that was kind of my I participated in that with other wonderful people, and I worked with microwave and did all of that as matter of fact, I redesigned a computer center. So every year I've done something, you know, and I've been successful, and then I move on, you know. But the radio network is my longest one. That's 23 years. So we'll be 2024, years this year, which is a lot of years, but we're helping people, because it's all positive talk. So although we do have a news program, I tried to make it positive, but we report the old way, you know, with, you know, checking sources and really having too much opinion. And when you have an opinion, say it's your opinion, you know, not trying to which Michael Hingson  14:21 is fair, which is which is fair. Well, if you ever need a guest on the podcast or on any of the radio shows, just let me know. I'm always looking for opportunities to also be positive and and motivate people. So if Linda MacKenzie  14:33 we can, just have to go to the site, and there's a thing called all shows, and go through all of the hosts, because we have over 45 of them, and, you know, and so, and each one does 14:47 their own. Got it? What's the site? Linda MacKenzie  14:50 Again, it's called Healthy Life. Dot.net. It's or heal thy life.net. So it's healthy life or heal thy life. Same got it? Same thing. Saying different, different way of saying it and and you can listen 24/7, I don't do any apps. We are syndicated on 75 channels of distribution. So if you wanted to get on, tune in, or streama, or some of these other wonderful networks in Europe, you know, we go to 137 countries. So it's a pretty good network. And if you want to be happy and get learn things, you know it's just wonderful. We're starting some new shows that nobody's ever done, and I can do an exclusive here for you, if you want it, our network is going to be doing I've been following a while that there's certain kinds of classical music, right? That when you listen to it can reverse cancer, stop Alzheimer's, stop Parkinson's. And there are certain things at certain frequencies. And I have one of the greatest classical Taurus in the world, in my opinion, and he's going to be doing a show where people can listen to the music and then and help themselves heal right on air, I'm stupid by John Hopkins University. And, I mean, it's not just namby pamby or, you know, La La Land stuff. It's no, I'm saving for certain things. So it's it's really no one's doing that. So it's going to be really fun for me to do. Michael Hingson  16:27 Are you familiar with Joe fatale? No. He is a an individual who has done a lot with with sound to not only help people from a wealth standpoint, but also help them in terms of dealing with health. I've, I've been on a couple of his mailing lists, and he's had some interesting, some interesting things, and a couple of people who've worked with him and so on have been guests on unstoppable mindset. But it's an interesting guy, but definitely parallels a lot of what you're saying, certainly stuff, I have also believed, right? Linda MacKenzie  17:03 We've had Jonathan Goldman, who has written, He's a graduate of Berkeley School of Music, but he's been doing sound healing. It was an interesting story with him, and he's on our network, and he's been doing shows with us for over 20 years. And it was funny, he went to Tibet and he was loved the chants of the Tibetan monks. And he went over there, and he said, can I try that chant? And they said, No, that chant, you know, is like 10 years. You have to do it in 10 years, you know, you have to train for that. He goes, Can I try? And they said, Yes. And he got it perfectly. And so now the Tibetan monks go to train with him in Boulder, Colorado every year around June timeframe. So it's kind of a fun story. So he's been in sound healing for a long time. And there's a lot of different things that are true, but like today, you have to make sure that it resonates with you, because not everything that you're hearing is true, and people are bastardizing things. And the closer you are to the truth, and the closer that you and you can depend on your own truth meter, because everybody's got one, yeah. And if you depend on that and listen to just that, and if it tells you stop, I don't want to do this anymore, then you just go to that point, and then you will get the benefit from everything. Michael Hingson  18:25 One of my favorite things that I've talked about several times on the podcast when I talk to people about inner voices and their thoughts is I ask a number of people, did you used to play or do you play Trivial Pursuit? And when they say, Yes. One of the things I constantly ask people is, how often did somebody ask a question? Immediately you thought of an answer, but you went, Oh, that was just too easy. And so you think again, you come up with a different answer, but the first answer that you thought of was the correct one, which is absolutely all about listening to your inner voice and listening to correct what you're being told. Linda MacKenzie  19:00 That's right. You're 99% right if you listen the first time and don't use your mind to think. You know, the brain is divided into two kinds. You know, the left logical brain. What you need if you're crossing a street. I mean, I would like to know there's a car and step back, but the right side of the brain is where your creativity is, and I call the seat of soul. And what happens is, is that your creative side is the thing that heals you. Your left logical side is just like the monkey mind. And so what happens when you're doing hypnosis? What you're doing is you're getting the left brain to listen to a story, but you before you do it, you have an intention, and the intention is the right brain knows exactly what you need to do, but it's very kind, and it lets the left brain sit there, be in control, except at night, and you'll notice that if you're ill, and when you wake up in the morning, you feel, most times, a lot better. And that's reason is, is because the right side of the mind has. Has actually taken control right and the left side of the brain is sleeping, so your right side of the brain can absolutely heal you. And this is where your your gut feel comes from, too, is from the right side of the brain. And we are much more than we think we are. You know, we're just spiritual beings in a physical body, not a physical being in a you know, we're not just physical beings, you know, right? Michael Hingson  20:28 Well, and it all goes back to the spiritual and to the light. And absolutely is true. I know that I've, we've had on on this podcast, a number of Reiki Masters and other people, and we've had people who bring on singing musical bowls and so on. Linda MacKenzie  20:50 And it's interesting about that, because, you know, here in Japan, Reiki has 12 levels, but they're only taught three here, and they're never taught the level to where you protect yourself, because when you're out there in the universe and you're going into doing some of these things, everything exists, even a thought form exists. So you want to make sure that you're as protected as possible when you're doing these things right and so, but most of the people don't know, because they don't allow you to do that. And Reiki, there is a you're there in it, day in, day out. That's your career. You know, it's not just a pastime. And the Tibetan bowls are great. However, for me, when they do the regular way of doing it, it's like chalk on a chalkboard. For me, when they do it opposite and backwards, I'm in heaven. So it's really interesting how everybody's body is different. Every person is unique. And we have to understand that when we're looking at health or with mind or with body, we want to understand that we are so important. Each one of us is important. Never should be belittled or, you know, and treat everybody with kindness and love and and respect and truth Michael Hingson  22:06 exactly right. And I'd love to see a whole lot more of it than oftentimes we do see, but I know that that it's so important that we focus on doing things to protect ourselves. And one of the things that that I talk about is I wrote a book that was published last year called on stop or excuse me, called Live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith. And the whole idea behind the book was that at the beginning of the pandemic, I realized that although I had escaped from the World Trade Center, and I had, in fact, known what to do, which was a mindset that clicked in when the emergency happened. I never really worked to teach other people that. So I wrote, live like a guide dog, and used lessons that I learned from all of my guide dogs and my wife's service dog, the lessons from those dogs to, in fact, learn how to deal with the different things that we have to deal with, and learn how to, in reality, control, protect ourselves and move forward in a positive and constructive way. In other words, really learning about the fact that you can control fear. Fear is not something that you you need to allow to overwhelm or, as I put it, blind you or paralyze you. The reality is that fear is a wonderful thing that you can use as a very powerful tool to help you function and succeed even in the most adverse circumstances possible. Linda MacKenzie  23:40 Well, I one of the songs on the record is called fear is fear is my friend, and it's a wonderful song, and it teaches you that fear. I did a big study for 20 years on fear, right? Because the only way that people can control you is through fear. Okay? If you don't have fear, no one can control you. No one, okay, yeah. Michael Hingson  24:08 Well, and just to interrupt for a quick sec, I would say it's not that you don't have fear, but you control it. Linda MacKenzie  24:16 Well, you overcome it. You Michael Hingson  24:17 exactly, right, exactly. You use it. You use it in a powerful, better way. Anyway, go ahead, right? Linda MacKenzie  24:23 Well, fear does, for me is that when fear comes in, it's, it's a wake up call, saying, yeah, look at this. What is it that you're fearful of, and what? Because the only way you can go through exactly right through it. And so when I did this study, it was very interesting, because I found that fear comes from two places. One is a fear of loss, and the other is a fear of death. When you fine tune fear all the way all the way all the way all the way down, it's fear of loss or fear of death. And it's funny, because we come in with nothing, we're leaving with nothing. The only thing we take. With us is the love we give and the love we get. That's it. And I've been on the other side and worked on the other side for the British government and all sorts of stuff, so I know that there's life after death, yeah. And so therefore there's really nothing to fear except to find out what the lesson fear is trying to teach you when you learn it, and you learn it all the way that lesson, you will never have to repeat it in your life again. And so fear is so, so important, and yet not to be feared. Don't fear Michael Hingson  25:35 don't fear it. No, as I said, it's a very powerful tool that can help in so many ways, right, which I think is really important. Well, after college, you started working at various things. What did you do after college? What was kind of your first endeavor? Linda MacKenzie  25:51 Well, I started with the New York telephone company, and I was called when I was selling touch tone telephones. They had just come out. Michael Hingson  26:01 Was it, was it called? Was it called 9x then? Or was it was that? Linda MacKenzie  26:05 Well, in New York, it was no. It was, yeah, that was the trade trade, yes, but it was New York telephone company, yeah. And then I went to work for the National radiology registry, and I designed a prison. When I moved to California, I started to really take off, and I designed a people coming out of prison weren't able to get jobs and and so the X ray they did teach in some prisons in Chino, as a matter of fact, how to become a x ray technician and and so, and an ultrasound wasn't even out back then, back in 77 so I started a prison program to it was a temporary agency so that when a doctor's office or a hospital, their x ray technicians didn't show up, they would call us, and then we would send somebody out, and then they would like the people we would send, and they would give them jobs. So the we so I tried to do that. And then I started working for the airlines and and I they said, Well, do you want to be a reservation person? I said, No. And they said, Well, do you want to be, you know, at the ticket counter agent? Yeah, no, no. He said, Do you want to be a flight attendant? I said, No. And they said, Well, what do you want to do? And I said, Put me in accounting at the mail desk. I want to see where the money goes, and then I'll figure out where I'm going to go. And they said, What? And I said, Just do it, you know. And I had made friends with someone, and so they gave me the job, and I kept moving. And every six months I'd find another error, a million dollar error, and this and this and this. And I finally worked my way up into computers and and then I was the very first woman in any as a data com engineer in any airline in the world. And I started doing a lot of things like that, and then went to work for Western airlines. And then I did worked for CETA, which is Society International Telecommunications aeronautic, which is a largest telecommunications company in the world, based in France and Switzerland. And then I from there, after my daughter graduated from college, I said, enough of this engineering. And so I quit, and I started a metaphysical company, and I got onto a lot of TV. I started my radio show in 1996 I started writing books, and I then from there, I was president of a dietary supplement manufacturing company for a while, and then I manufactured audio tapes and and our company, our vitamin company, was the first company to do mind body medicine. So we would have my partner, was Vice President from GNC, and we started a business in New York and in California. And what we did was we would do an arthritis formula, which she was great at formulation. She was one of the best in the biz. And I would do audio visualization tapes, so that when you were taking the formulas, you would be working on a body level, but the mind would, you would start helping to grow bone with the mind. So we were the first ones to do all these wonderful things for that. And we sold to Trader Joe's and house markets and all sorts of stuff. And then the big farmer came in, and then that was that, you know, they bought up almost all the vitamin companies, and then they started, you know, most of the vitamin companies out there aren't worth their salt, and they're not giving you good vitamins. So and then from there, I went into doing the radio network and which I've been doing, and then I stopped doing books. And then two years ago, I said, you know, I'm getting old, and if I want to get these books out, I better get them out. So I probably. Myself that I was going to do one a year. And for the last two years, I did those two new books, and then I was, I was going to do the children's book this year, but they say that April is the best time to release a children's book is that's when the stores and the education people are looking at it and getting towards summer and all that. Yeah, yeah. So I'm waiting until next year to release that, the album and stuff. But so this year I had to put together a new book, which I'm doing. I just, I'm almost finished with that, so I can release it in September, and that is going to be where it's, I think it's going to be called, help yourself heal with natural remedies or naturally, and it's going to have 40, or about 40 different illnesses, and all the natural medicine with it, plus in the back, it's going to have what is an amino acid, all these terms, so that people can understand. I like to do things that are complete and and I don't do anything if somebody has to get something from a book or a product or a thing that I do. Otherwise I won't do it, yeah, because I want it for everyone, you know. So, so anyways, I'm, I'm working on that as we 31:08 speak. Well, there you go. Well, Michael Hingson  31:11 so it'll be out in like, September or October. Linda MacKenzie  31:14 Yeah, exactly. I'm, I'm doing, I'm just about completed with it, and I just have about three or four chapters to go, but I keep finding new things I want to put in. For example, you know, since there is a censorship on the natural health sites, I'm going to include all of the wonderful health site, health natural health sites, so that people will have a reference so they don't have to worry about things, you know and where to get information. So it's going to be good. Michael Hingson  31:44 Well, when that book gets to the point where you have a book cover, I certainly want to put that in the show notes as well. Speaker 1  31:50 Okay, great. That'd be great. And Michael Hingson  31:53 maybe we can release this about the time the book is is made visible to the world, so that that'll help. Speaker 1  32:01 That'd be great, sure. Well, so what Michael Hingson  32:05 do you consider your profession today? Linda MacKenzie  32:09 Me, I'm my own profession. Me, the I don't have a profession. I have many hats that I'm wearing, right? So I mean tremendous amounts. I'm still running the radio network, and in a radio network, you need 21 individuals to do it, and there we have four, and I'm doing about, I don't know, 10 or 12 of the 21 things to do. So if you want to give me a hat for there, that's that. And then I'm an author and I'm doing the record, so I'm that, and I'm a radio host and, you know, and I give pictures. And the thing is, is that it's like, I'm not busy enough, but I love giving back to the community, because, you know, when you are there's six things you need in your life to be happy and balanced, right? And one of them is giving to the community. So I wasn't really before covid, I was doing a lot, but I wasn't really doing anything for my community. So what I did was I it took me four months. They had to do a homeland security check and a thumbprint and, you know, all sorts of stuff, to do guided meditation for healing for seniors. So we're going to be taking, and that's starting in two weeks, in August 8, and we're, we're going to be doing at the Senior Center in Redondo Beach and and so people will come, and we're going to work on different kinds of anti aging issues, like arthritis and, you know, macular degeneration and bones and diabetes and stuff, and every every two weeks, I'll be doing a guided meditation and helping people heal with that. So, so now I've got the community in and so I've got all my six pieces of my pie, and now I'm stable again. Michael Hingson  34:00 There you go. It's nice to have peace in the world, right? Yeah, it is. It is. So tell me, given all the things you've done, tell me a story or two about things that you've done, something very memorable that comes to mind. Linda MacKenzie  34:15 Oh, there's so many, I'm sure. I mean, because on top of that, you know, I've been a psychic since I'm eight years 34:21 old, right? So how did you discover that? How did Linda MacKenzie  34:25 you I saw God when I was eight? Okay, I'm very God based. I'm not from the planet Altair or the universe. I never took a course. I mean, I listened to God. God said, Jump. I said, Hi. How high and and that's what I do. But I've done I'm very respected in the community. I do a lot of, like, a lot of things for for that, there's, you know, I've done documentaries on it, and there's 17 different distinct psychic abilities. I have them all, and I don't do. Two of them, I don't do prophecy and I don't do trans mediumship, which means that an entity will jump into you and talk through you. And that happens because for a long time, I was on ABC, NBC, BBC, Japan TV. I worked with International Society for paranormal research, and we went over to London to investigate for the British government, you know, some of the Belgrave Hall, whether the ghost things were real or not. And one of the things that was interesting, because there's a lot of stories on those you know that are like, kind of titillating, or saying, Oh, what's going on? I was so basically, I tested my abilities for 37 years before I came out. So what I would do is say I was 16, and I would have pre Cognizant dreams. So I would write the dreams out. And what I would do is I would give them to my girlfriend after I wrote them, and then when one of the dreams would come true, I'd have a witness that was there with me, and I'd go over to her house, and I'd say, hey, Eileen, can you pull the dream with the roller coaster there? And she would pull it out. And then I said, read it. And then that way, I learned to decipher what was coming from God, what was coming from me. Because, you know, there's a lot of, you know, where if you don't know how to manipulate the energy. So it was a long, long time I, you know, by the time I was 15, I had read every metaphysical book in the New York Public Library, everyone, and so I took it very seriously. And I was, you know, busting psychics in New York at 21 and and then finally I just stopped, and I didn't come back out until I was about 37 and so when I went to London, they there was a, we had a Cora Derek. A Cora was the one of the leading psychics in London. And then we had Peter James, who was on sightings. And then we had me, and we three went over. And then we would go into they would take us individually to these different sites. And they would say, Okay, what do you feel, and what do you see? And so I would be taking, you know, they take me to these different things and, and I would see all these different things, and I would say it, and it turned out, I'm saying I'm not very comfortable here. I'm not comfortable here. And then we go to the next site, and I would tell them, Oh, I see a woman with a red hat. And I gave them names and places and dates and and it turned out that they were taking me on the path of Jack the Ripper, and to the point where I gave them new information on Jack the Ripper that they never had before. And so I have an ability that I can stand on a piece of ground, and I can go back to the beginning of time and tell you names and dates and places of who was there all the way back up. So there's a lot of things, and the government has asked me to work for them on many projects. They've been charting me since I'm 15 and so, and I just don't, I don't do and one, and I'm not going to say which, but one of the presidents of the United States, when they were in office, asked me to be their psychic, and I told them, I don't do politics, sports books or lottery tickets, and I turned them down. I mean, I was going to go to dinner with them, because Henry Kissinger was going to be my dinner partner at the Jonathan club, you know. And I thought he was an interesting guy, you know, whether you liked him or you didn't like him, he was an interesting guy. And I like to meet different people, because even if you it's not somebody you like, you need to understand the people so that you know how to handle them in a correct manner, you know. And so even if you don't like someone, you treat them with respect, and you learn you better, you understand, you know. So, so that's those are some stories. Michael Hingson  39:01 So, so let's, let's get to the reality of the world. Did you ever visit the Del Coronado hotel and talk to the ghost down there? Linda MacKenzie  39:08 Yes, oh, good. We did. We were one. We were the group that was doing it, that was filmed. We did the Queen Mary. We did. We were, if you saw that on television. It was probably me there. It wasn't as as haunted as some of the other places. I mean, you know, there was one place in England that was very interesting, so we did a documentary called ghost of England, and there was a one house. I don't remember the name of it, but there was a three generations that had died that were still in the house. The house was in the family for 300 years, and I released a little girl there that was eight, that was a, you know, a spirit there, and I released her to her mom. She had died of consumption. It was really interesting, because. Because they knew of each other, and it was, here's these three different generations, and they can see each other, and they know each other. So that was very interesting, because the Society for paranormal research actually did research into the phenomena of ghosts and the ghost at Belgrave Hall, we found we were very truthful. There was no ghost at Belgrave Hall, okay? I mean, it was explained away by phenomena that, you know, street lights and rain stuff. So we did a lot of that, but we wanted to make sure that everything that we did was in truth. And then another thing that we found was I did another documentary called ghost of New Orleans. And New Orleans is a very, very, very strange place. And I actually went back and they asked me to do a I did a 17 part interactive museum display for a paranormal Museum in New Orleans, and it was all teaching about psychic ability and how not to fear it. And it's not the devil's work. It's, you know, it's just a natural ability that we have. And I wanted people to understand that, but get the truth not from a lot of these people that are just talking that don't know, you know. So anyway, so we did in New Orleans. It was interesting, because the ghosts work together. We were all on different floors, and on each floor, they would give us papers, and they would, you know, newspapers in the morning, and the newspapers would end up in our rooms, in different places all the time, and it was just and we didn't move them. Nobody touched them. The room wasn't able to get in. So there's all sorts of phenomenon there that is just kind of interesting, you know, there. Michael Hingson  41:47 So just, does some of that have to do with voodoo and so on, but just because they're so prevalent down Linda MacKenzie  41:52 if you understand that everything exists, you have to none of that was the voodoo, because, very specific thing, yeah, and it's a specific practice, okay, and so it's not something that I would get into. Or, do you know? I mean, it's not we were, I was attacked several times there. I mean, we went into a we went into a house where there was an entity there that had committed 27 murders, and it was they were all buried in the backyard, and they never even knew until we told them about it, when he came after me on that and so you know, you you have to know what you're doing when you're Doing this, too, you know. So you know, but most ghosts, you just tell them to go away, or if you and sometimes you want to see them, you know, maybe it's your mom or your dad that you're missing. So one of the ways that you can do that is you can say, Hey, before you go to sleep, put a pen and a pencil by your bed, and just say, I would like to see you, dad tonight, and and then you say, I would like to remember that I saw you, yeah. And then when you get up in the morning, you just jot down little words or something, anything that you remember. And then after a while, you'll be able to get a rapport where you'll be able to start to remember, and then able to communicate. Michael Hingson  43:23 Yeah. And the reason I asked about the Dell, just because that's that is a a ghost I've, I've heard so much about, and a friendly ghost, as I understand it. So there's a woman, I guess what? She died in a room there. But it's one of the things that everybody talks about with the Dell all the time, of course. Linda MacKenzie  43:40 Well, one of the funniest things that happened was, well, there was two funny things. One was, you know, we were at the doing the the Comedy Store, the magic and magic club. And the Comedy Store is what that Tootsie shores place, anyway. So we were doing, doing the Comedy Store, and there's a ghost there that puts his hands up people's skirts. Well, that's nice. I went in there, and they didn't tell me, and all of a sudden, I'm going, what the heck. And I look there and I see and I and these, and they said, Oh yeah, we forgot to tell you. I said, Yeah, you didn't forget you wanted to catch that on camera. I said, Well, you did. So it's funny. It's a comedy Michael Hingson  44:28 story. I'm sure the ghost thought it was funny. Linda MacKenzie  44:30 Yeah, he did. I bet. So, yeah. So there's, there's, I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of stories and and that's my book coming out in 2027 that's going to be called, and then what happened? Paranormal stories, believe it or not, you know. And those are going to have 40 stories in there on things that have happened to me, where people are going to say what? And you can believe it or not, that's coming Michael Hingson  44:58 up too. So do. Well, and that's that's ultimately it. People can decide to believe it or not, and a lot of people will poo, poo it. It doesn't change the reality of the situation, though, Linda MacKenzie  45:12 no, but you know, it's okay. Wherever you are is good, as long as you love one another, or at least try and be kind to one another. I think we can accomplish a lot just by doing that, yeah, and agree to disagree. You know, we we don't have to get upset if the other person has 100% doesn't agree with us. We have to just agree to disagree and not try and get heated. But the Michael Hingson  45:38 other, the other side of that, or the other part of that, not the other side, is that if you really take that, that tact, and you agree to disagree and you continue to converse, you never know what you're going to learn, as opposed to what we see so often now, somebody disagrees, and there's just this complete block wall that comes up. There's no discussion at all, and that's never a good thing to do. Linda MacKenzie  46:03 Well, this morning on my radio show was interesting. I went out with a girlfriend of mine, and she's really into these conspiracy theories, and I'm just not there, you know. So she was trying to put her point through and saying, you know, the collective consciousness has to understand this so we can do something about it. And I said, Yeah. I said, Well look, I said, Here's what I've decided. I said, I'm 76 if somebody else wants to do the activism for this kind of stuff, then at 50, go and do your thing. I said, but I think that when you start getting angry and you start getting heated, what's happening is the collective consciousness is there for everyone. We're all part of everything. We are part of everyone and everything. And so when you get upset, that's not helping the consciousness to make everything right. And if you get a group of people thinking the same thought, you can actually change consciousness and make the world better. So instead of sitting there, do something about it. Donate to something. But don't just sit there and talk about it, you know, actually do something about it and start making sure that you're staying positive about it, and what you can do positively for the situation. And don't get caught in the controversy because you're making more negative energy, yeah, and that never works, no. Positive always overcomes negative. So if you want something to happen, think positive, be buoyant, positive always overcomes negative. So you need to do that. Michael Hingson  47:39 And it is, it is so true, and so many people, you know, we're, we're in a world now where there's so much negativity. It's so unfortunate, because I think people miss out when they do that. And you're right, that's, it's not really part of the good, constructive collective consciousness, either, Linda MacKenzie  48:00 right, right? So we just have to, you know, people think that they can't do anything when things happen. And what I'm saying if you come from the premise that everything is energy, right? And so if you are just loving your spouse or loving your dog or being kind to people that energy is positive, right? And so sure you are doing something, because if we make a lot of positive energy in that collective consciousness, as above so below, right? So if we go ahead and do that, then it will drift down, and we will have a better, happier place, but being negative doesn't help you. Negative makes your immune system depressed. It gives you illness, and it's these are all proven things, so you might as well stay positive. And I don't mean Pollyanna, where you don't things, but you know, understand things and understand that there's a greater force in the back of things too, that, you know, it's not just all about us. You know, there is a for me. I believe that there's a God, and God is in control, and so we have to trust that to some degree. Michael Hingson  49:14 On September 11, and I wrote about this in my book thunder dog, and I've talked about it a few times here, when I was running away from tower two, because I was very close to it when it collapsed. The first thing I thought of as I started to run was, God, I can't believe that you got us out of a building just to have it fall on us. And immediately I heard in my head, as clearly as we're talking right now a voice that said, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on running with Roselle, who is my guide dog, and the rest will take care of itself. And I immediately had this absolute sense of peace and calm and conviction that if I did that, I'd be fine. And I was so. I'm saying that in part to tell you I understand exactly what you're saying, and that was kind of perhaps one of my experiences. But the bottom line is that we need to learn to listen. And one of the things that I talk about and live like a guide dog is that so many people worry about every little thing that comes along. They are just worried about, how am I going to deal with this? Or the politicians are going to do this to me and that to me and everything else. And the reality is, we don't have control over any of that. What we have control over is how we deal with stuff. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't be aware of what's going on around us. But by the same token, if we worry about every little thing, and we don't really worry about the things over which we have some influence, we're only hurting ourselves. Linda MacKenzie  50:50 And it delays it, and it delays it, and it delays it. So you if you want things to get over quickly, learn to listen. And sometimes, you know, people would say, what is meditation? And I said, Well, it's kind of like prayer. You're listening to God's answers, you know. So I mean, there, I've never been alone, because I've always had a very strong connection with God. And as a matter of fact, it was very interesting. I'll tell you the story about the radio network, and basically, I had just been offered by Sci Fi Channel. They said, We love working with you. So would you take and there was a big 51:31 ghosty, a ghost Linda MacKenzie  51:36 show coming up. It was very big. And I said, No, I won't do that because it wasn't in truth, and you just want to make people cry. You want to feed off those emotions. That's not me. So Mary from sci fi said, You know what, Linda, we like working with you, so just go home and design a show for us, and we will do it. So I got home and I was so excited, because now I was going to make the big money, and I was going to get known and God comes in, and he goes, Linda. And I said, What? And he said, I want you to start a radio network. I said, What? And he says, Well, look. He goes, I gave you all the tools to do it. He goes, You were a data com engineer, you've been in radio. He goes, you're doing positive stuff. He goes, I want you to do a positive network. And I'm going, Wait a minute. I says, you know, I'm just getting this big opportunity, you know? And he goes, Well, listen, he goes, You know, when you're doing a lecture, now you're he goes, you get 1000 people coming to your lecture. He goes, so you're a point of light. He goes, think if you were to get 4045, people to do a radio network, all with positive thought. He goes, then you become a lighthouse. And I said, Okay. And I said, But what about this opportunity? And he goes, Well, you don't have to do it. And I said, well. I said, God is asking me, and I'm going to say, No, I'm not going to do that. I said, No, that's not going to happen. I said, and my Italian came in because I said, Okay, I'll do it. But when I get upstairs, you and I have it a sit down, and he just laughs. He thinks I'm funny so, and he has always been with me 100% of the time. And a lot of times he'll tell me, No, you can do this yourself. You do it, you know. And so I but I've been in a realm where I can go back and forth and I understand, you know. And I talk, you know, you can talk to anybody you want, sure, if you're if you're there, you know, if I need help from Einstein, I'll say, Hey, Uncle L, I need you what? And I go, ask God, Michael Hingson  53:43 yeah, it's it's interesting. It's so many people just belittle so much and but everyone has to make their own choices, and I don't have control over the the choices that people make. I can only talk about my experiences and what I do and so on, and people have to make up their own minds. Which is, which is the way it should be. I think that all of us are individuals that are given the opportunity to make choices, and we can decide how we want to proceed, and the time will come when we will have to defend our positions, or it will have all gone really well. And so the bottom line is that that we make the choices and we have to live by what happens as a result the consequences Linda MacKenzie  54:36 right, and we have to take to learn, to get take responsibility for our actions. You know, the songs on this album address all the major things that we need to do to stay positive and to have a happy life. And so it's not just for kids, it's for parents, and it's for grandparents, and it's for anyone who wants to listen. And it's it's going to be a good. Thing when I get this all done, and I'm it's one of them, my, one of my projects that I wanted to do for a lifetime. And once I get this done, I'll be happy. Michael Hingson  55:09 So well, you do a lot of different stuff. You must have a personal life too. How do you balance the two? Well, and what do you do in your personal life? Linda MacKenzie  55:20 Well, I love to exercise. I do. I love to cook. So once a month I do a psychic soiree, you know, so I do. I've been on a specific diet, you know, no dairy, no salt, no sugar, no effervescence, no since 1992 I don't go to medical doctors. I haven't been to a medical doctor since 1992 and I do everything with just herbs and exercise and getting enough sleep and stuff. So I cook for dinners, and I have a family, and we go out, and I have wonderful friends and bands that I follow in town, so we go out. And I'm actually even going out on a date next this coming Thursday night, which hasn't been for a long time, but so there's and then I do a lot of working with the senior centers and so and then do and I love watching dumb TV that I don't have to think. I like dumb Michael Hingson  56:23 I like dumb TV too. I know exactly what you mean when you say that. I have always been a fan, also, of old radio shows. So I love listening to all the old time radio shows from the 30s, 40s and 50s and so on. And some of them can make you think. But by the same token, the reality is that there's something to be said for just being able to escape, right? Linda MacKenzie  56:46 My latest thing is watching Chinese soap operas. They're 40 episodes long, and I love them. And even though they're subtitles, you get to see how they think and how a different kind of person, you know, culture thinks and does, and it's interesting that you can see how much the same they are as we you know, that they want the same things, they have the same values. You know, because we are all the same, and we have to understand that Michael Hingson  57:19 I know, one of the things that I've said many times, that I know, I'm sure, that a lot of people just think I'm crazy, but I point out that what happened on September 11 was not a religious war. It was a bunch of thugs who wanted to try to bend the world to their will. But that's not the the Islamic religion. The reality is that all of the religions, all the major religions, especially in the world, are always to get to God, and Far be it from me, to judge someone else because they happen to belong to a different religion or subscribe to something different than what I do. Linda MacKenzie  57:54 Well, it's interesting that I did a study on religion. As a matter of fact, on on our radio network we have James Bean, and he's been doing, he was on wisdom radio, so for 40 years, he's been doing spiritual awakenings, where he does comparative religions. And it's interesting that all of the religions have a, you know, a Jesus, you know, or a Mohammed, and they all die, and they all get resurrected in three days. Every single one of the religions has that. And if you and every single one of the religions has a version of the Our Father, Mm, hmm, almost exact words, because Jesus, you know, so, so you know, as far as respecting other religions. I think you have to too. But nothing should be overwhelming, you know, right? Like, oh, absolutely nothing should be overwhelming on because of religion. Like, I don't think that the girls should have to wear burkas because it's religious, right, you know. I think there's some things that you know are not exactly right. Michael Hingson  59:00 Well, you know, Tolstoy once said The biggest problem with Christianity is that people don't practice it. It's the same sort of That's right, concept. I agree with you. I don't think that girls and women should have to wear burkas or not be educated, or not be educated. Well, I wish, I really wish they would be educated, yeah. And so today, actually, yeah, oh, they do and and I think more and more people are beginning to realize it, but not enough yet, in some of these countries where they're willing to stand up and and say, We're not going to tolerate this anymore. Linda MacKenzie  59:32 But I hope about the money, though, unfortunately, so it's power and money, but when they understand that it's the love and kindness that's more important, and that's the only thing that you take with you. Yeah, maybe we can change this world, and I hope we do well. Michael Hingson  59:50 I agree with what you're saying, and I think that people, but people do need to, at some time, recognize that there's something. To be said for principle in the world too. 1:00:02 Yes, I agree. So what Michael Hingson  1:00:08 do you hope that people gain today from listening to your show? Linda MacKenzie  1:00:13 Well, today we did a really, kind of an interesting thing. It was called Linda's world. And once a month, at the end of the month, I don't even know what I'm going to say, and so I come on and I just talk, and we talk a little bit about current events, and then we talked about anti aging, and I do herb of the week, and I give you different kinds of information on that, and we did all these things on anti aging and what vitamins and different things that can help you doing it. And so it's really we do spirit, and we do mind, body, spirit. So you know, you can go to healthy life.net, and click on podcast on demand. There's two buttons at the top. One is Listen Live. You just click on that. We don't have an app. We don't track you. We just allow you to listen for free. And we also have a podcast network with 3200 podcasts from wonderful, wonderful people, some who have passed over, but now, but they're still there, and they have still valuable information called HR and podcasts.com that's 3200 free podcasts there that people can access as well. So you can go to the podcast on demand button, click that, and you'll find my face, or look for Linda McKenzie, and click on that, and there'll be, I think, three months of shows that you can listen to, and you can see all the different kinds of topics. And I'm usually booked six months in advance, because I've been doing radio for so long, there's a lot of people that really like to come in, so I hope that people get one idea, one thought that makes their life positive from the show. And hopefully I'm giving 60 of them, Michael Hingson  1:01:52 yeah, I hear exactly what you're saying. And you know, if I can inspire one person when I speak, if I can get people to think a little bit more about something, then I've done my job right, and I think that's the only way to do it. Well, if people want to reach out to you, what's the best way for them to contact you? Linda MacKenzie  1:02:14 Okay, well, you can reach me if you want to email me. It's Linda at Linda mckenzie.net and that's m, A, C, K, E, N, Z, I, E, all one word, and Linda mckenzie.net that's my website, or they can go through healthy life.net and get me through that way too. And of course, I'm on all of the social media sites as well, right? You know? And on my website is all my appearances. I go up to San Jose and do expos and talks. And, you know, just did, just came and finished a past life regression class. I think I'm going to be doing a gemstone healing class. And, you know, whatever strikes me for the moment is what I do. So you never know. So you go on there, and you know, they want me. I've done a TV show this year, and they want me to do another one and continue. I said, Well, kind of have to pay me, because I'm doing a lot of stuff, you know, you know, you have to give me a little bit more money if you want another one. So I gave them their one, first one, and it's called Live with Linda, and that you can reach on, it's on Roku and Amazon, and that was just last September, and it's live with Linda, and it's also on soul search.tv and you can get it there as well. Michael Hingson  1:03:30 So did the Sci Fi Channel ever come back to you anymore? Linda MacKenzie  1:03:33 No, no, just checking that time, you know, I wasn't young and cute anymore. Now cute. I'm still, Michael Hingson  1:03:40 yeah, you're cute. I believe it'd be cute. You're cute. I'm cute. Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening. I hope that you've learned something that you find there are relevant things that Linda has had to say. I'd love to hear from you. Please email me at Michael H, I, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, I'd love to hear your thoughts about today, wherever you are experiencing the podcast. Podcast, please give us a five star rating. We value it, and we value your thoughts and your comments, and for all of you, and Linda you as well. If you know of anyone else who we ought to have as a guest on unstoppable mindset, please introduce us. We're always looking for more people to visit with and talk with. As I've said many times, I believe everyone has a story to tell and and we a

Protecting your ideas can be the difference between building momentum and watching someone else run with your work. In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I sit down with patent attorney and entrepreneur Devin Miller to explore what founders and business owners really need to know about patents, trademarks, and intellectual property. Devin shares how his background in engineering, startups, and law shaped his approach to innovation, and he breaks down the real differences between provisional and non-provisional patents in clear, practical terms. We talk about common mistakes entrepreneurs make, how legal protection supports growth instead of slowing it down, and why understanding intellectual property early can help you compete with confidence. I believe this conversation will give you clarity, direction, and a stronger foundation for protecting what you work so hard to create. Highlights: 00:01:18 – Hear how growing up in a small town shaped Devin's approach to problem-solving and business.00:12:53 – Learn why Devin combined engineering, business, and law instead of choosing a single career path.00:19:32 – Discover how a student competition turned into a real wearable technology startup.00:30:57 – Understand the clear difference between patents, trademarks, and copyrights.00:33:05 – Learn when a provisional patent makes sense and when it does not.00:53:52 – Discover what practical options exist when competitors copy or knock off your product. About the Guest: Devin Miller is the founder of Miller IP, a firm launched in 2018 that helps startups and small businesses protect their inventions and brands without breaking the bank. He's overseen over a thousand patent and trademark filings with a 95 percent success rate on patents and an 85 percent success rate on trademarks, making sure garage inventors and side hustlers get the same high-quality service as big tech. Before starting his firm, Devin spent years at large law firms working with clients like Intel and Amazon, but he found his true passion in helping scrappy entrepreneurs turn ideas into assets. He blends legal know how with an entrepreneur's mindset, offering flat fee packages, DIY legal tools, and hosting webinars and a podcast series to demystify IP. A lifelong runner who knocks out 10+ miles a day and 30-40 miles daily biking (except Sunday), Devin listens to audiobooks and podcasts while training for marathons. When he's not drafting office action responses or co-hosting Inventive Journey, you might catch him brainstorming the next Inventive Youth program or sipping coffee while sketching partnership agreements. Ways to connect with Devin**:** If you'd like to talk strategy or swap running playlist recs, feel free to schedule a chat at http://strategymeeting.com LinkedIn profile  https://www.linkedin.com/in/lawwithmiller/ Firm website [https://www.lawwithmiller.com](https://www.lawwithmiller.com "https://www.lawwithmiller.com") About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well, hello to all of you, wherever you happen to be today, you are listening to or watching or both unstoppable mindset and I am your host. Mike hingson, our guest today is Devin Miller, who founded the company, Miller IP, and he'll tell us all about that and what that means and so on as we go through this. But I will tell you that he is a lawyer. He deals with patents and other things and a lot of stuff relating to startups. I think that's going to be a lot of fun to talk about. So without any further ado, as it were, Devin, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Thanks for having me on. Excited to be here. Well, we're glad. We're glad you're here. Can you hear me? Okay, now I hear you. Devin Miller  02:06 Well, we're sorry for the delay, but I said I'm excited to be here and looking forward to chatting. Michael Hingson  02:11 Well, perfect. Well, let's start. I love to always do this. Let's start kind of at the beginning. Why don't you tell us about the early Devon, growing up and all that? Devin Miller  02:21 You know, I I'm happy to do. I don't know there's anything that probably stands out. I was probably fairly typical. So I was raised in a religious family, so we're attended church regularly every week. And I had a couple sisters, an older and a younger one, and was went through, went through schooling and or studied, probably the typical course. So I don't know there's anything stands out. I was in a small town, so grew up as, probably not as small as I'd like it to be anymore, but a small farming town, and it was, it was kind of always enjoyed the small town fill, and actually am back to being in that same hometown where I live now with my family. But yeah, so I did that, and I did probably the at the time, the typical thing with the it's growing up with kids and sports and doing things, and went through high school and and after that, jumped or went off to college. But I don't know if there's anything in particular that stands out in my mind, other than probably, at least in my mind, a pretty typical childhood and upbringing, but enjoyed it nonetheless. But happy to provide any details or I can jump into a bit about college. Michael Hingson  03:38 Well, where did you go to college? Devin Miller  03:40 Yeah, so I went to Brigham, young university, just or BYU, just out here in Utah. So I went off to so, or I graduated high school and I went off to a year of college. So I went off to BYU, kind of intending to go into electrical engineering, which is what I or one of the degrees I ended up studying with, and then I did that for a year, and after which I went off and did a served a religious mission for my church, so Church of Jesus Christ, or Latter Day Saints, otherwise nicknamed Mormon. So I went off and went to Taiwan for about two years. So didn't have any idea, even at that point where Taiwan was and certainly didn't know the language, but when studied that, or they have a training center where you get an opportunity to study it for about three months. So I studied it and then went off to Taiwan and served that religious mission for my church for a couple years before coming back to the high school, or good, not the high school to college to continue my studies. Michael Hingson  04:43 I several, several comments. One, I know what you mean about small hometowns. We moved from Chicago, where I was born, to California when I was five, we moved to a town called Palmdale, and it was a very small rural town about 60. Five miles north of Los Angeles. I don't know what the population was when we first moved there, but it couldn't have been more than 1000 or 1500 people spread out over a little bit of a distance. For me, it was great, because without there being a lot of traffic, I was able to do things I might not have done nearly as well in Chicago things like riding a bike, learning to ride a bike and walking to school and and not ever fearing about walking to school for any reasons, including being blind. But oftentimes I once I learned how to do it, I rode my own bike to school and locked it in the bike rack and then rode home and all that. But then Palmdale started to grow and I'm not quite sure what the population is today, but I live in a town about 55 miles east of Palmdale called Victorville, and as I described Victorville growing up, it was not even a speck on a radar scope compared to the small town of Palmdale, but we we moved down to Southern California from the Bay Area my wife and I to be closer to family and so on. In 2014 we wanted to build a house for Karen, because she was in a wheelchair her whole life. So we wanted to get a a house that would be accessible. And my gosh, the only place we could find any property was Victorville. And at that time, in 2014 it had 115,000 people in it. It has grown. Now it Devin Miller  06:31 has grown. And it tends to be that, you know, it feels like everybody's always kind of chasing the small town then, or people find out about it. Everybody moves in. It's no longer a small town, and then you're off to chasing the the next small town, wherever that might be. So it's kind of a perpetual cycle of of chasing that small or at least for the people to like it. Not everybody loves it, but I'm certainly a proponent of chasing that small town feel from from place to places, as you're trying to or trying to find or recreate what you probably grew up with. So it is a it is a cycle that everybody I think is chasing, Michael Hingson  07:09 yeah, well, for me now, my wife passed away in 2022 we were married 40 years. And so the thing about it is that there are probably advantages for me living alone, being in a place that has a few more people and a few more of the kind of amenities that at least somewhat larger towns have, like a Costco and some some restaurants. We actually live in a homeowner's development, a homeowner's association called Spring Valley Lake, and I live within walking distance of the Country Club, which has a nice restaurant, so I'm able to go to the to the restaurant whenever I choose, and that's kind of nice. So there's value for me and being here and people say, Well, do you ever want to move from Victorville now that your wife died? And why do I want to do that? Especially since I have a 3.95% mortgage? You know, I'm not going to do that, and I'm in a new house that. Well, relatively new. It was built in 2016 so it's pretty much built to code. And insulation is great. Solar is great on the house. Air conditioning works, so I can't complain. Devin Miller  08:20 No, sounds like a good setup, and it's kind of one where, why, if you enjoy where you're at, why would you move to go somewhere else that you wouldn't necessarily enjoy? So it just sounds like it works out. Michael Hingson  08:29 Well, it does, and I can always, as I need to being a keynote speaker and traveling, there's a shuttle that'll take me down to the nearest airports. So that works out. Well, that's awesome. So you went to, I'm a little bit familiar with the the whole LDS missionary program, Mission program, we we were not part of the church, but we lived, when my wife and I got married, we lived in Mission Viejo and we had neighbors right next door to us, who were members of the church, and they came over one day and they said, we have an issue. And I said, Okay. And my wife said, Okay, what's the issue? Well, we have a couple of missionaries coming in, and the only homes that are available to these two boys are homes that already have young female girls in them. So they really can't be in those homes. Would you be willing to rent your one of your rooms to missionaries? And so we said, and well, Karen said, because she was a member of the Methodist church, we said, as long as they don't try to mormonize us, we won't try to methodize them. And we would love to do it. And it worked out really well. We had a couple of missionaries for a while, and then they switched out. And eventually we had a gentleman from Tonga for a while, and we actually had a couple girls for for a while. So it worked out really well, and we we got to know them all, and it was a great relationship. And they did their work, and at Christmas time, they certainly were invited to our Christmas parties. We. Had every year a party. What we actually had was what we call a Christmas tree upping. We got the tree, we brought it into the house, and we invited all of our friends and neighbors to come and decorate the tree in the house. Because, needless to say, we weren't going to do that very well. Karen especially wasn't going to be able to stand up and decorate the tree. So we got them to do all the tree decorations and all that, and we fed them. So it worked out. Devin Miller  10:26 Well, it's awesome. Sounds like, great. And you hit on. I said, that's probably my, my favorite part of the Christmas is a Christmas tree. So growing up, we always had a real live tree, but it was always, you know, it was downstairs in the basement, and had lower ceilings. And so I was always kind of the opinion, hey, when I grow up, I want to have the a huge, you know, kind of like in the newbies at 20 plus or 20 or 20 plus foot tree, yeah. And lo and behold, we, or at least the couple houses that we build have always had, at least in the living space, have had the pretty high ceilings. And so that's always what we do. We'll go out and we'll cut down a live tree. So we'll go out to kind of in nature, to the forest, where they let you cut them down, and we'll, we'll cut down, usually it's around a 20 plus foot tree, and then have it strung up in the house. And I always tell my wife, I said, I'd rather that one could be my Christmas present. I'd be just as happy, because as long as I have my tree, it's a good Christmas for me. Michael Hingson  11:23 Yeah, oh, I hear you. Well, one of the boys who lived next door to us went off on a mission to, I think it was Argentina, and was gone for, I guess, two years. What was really funny is when he came back, it took him a while to re acclimatize his speaking English and getting back his American accent. He was he definitely had much more of a Spanish accent, and was much more used to speaking Spanish for a while. So the the three month exposure period certainly got him started at the at the center there in Utah. And then he went off and did his missionary work and then came home. But, you know, it's, it's got to be a wonderful and a very valuable experience. How do you think it affected you? Devin Miller  12:10 Yeah, I think I said, I think it would be, you said it probably well, is it like one where to say, Hey, this is the most fun time in your life, and you'll never have a more fun time. I don't know that. It's kind of like, you know, I liken it to I so I like to do a lot of running, so or in older years. I don't know that I was as much in younger years, but kind of discovered not that I love running, per se, but love to get out and decompress and otherwise, kind of have a time where I don't have a lot of intrusions or other things that are pressing in on life. And so with that, you know, I've done a number of marathons and marathons, you know, everybody again, says, Well, did you have fun? Or was it a good or was it good marathon? So I don't know that it's ever fun. I don't and do it, but it's a good accomplishment. You it's, you go out, you set your mind to something, and then otherwise, at the end of the day, you reach your goal. And, you know, kind of has the that sense of accomplishment and learning and become improving yourself. That's probably a lot of how I like in a mission is, you know, you have a lot of stresses of learning a new language, being in a different culture, doing something that you're unfamiliar with or not accustomed to, and at the end, you know, you learn a lot of things, you are gain a lot of skills. You hopefully impact a lot of people's lives for the better. And so it is definitely one of those where it's a great accomplishment, but it's not, you know, it's not one way to say, hey, this was a fun vacation where I got to go play for two years. So it it works out well, and I would absolutely do it again. Michael Hingson  13:31 Yeah, I'm sure you learned a lot, and you probably learned a whole lot more in a lot of ways, than most of the people that you you visited with because you treated it as an adventure and an adventure to learn. So that's pretty cool, absolutely. So you came back from that and you went back to college, and did you continue in electrical engineering? Or what Devin Miller  13:56 did you do? Yes and no. So I did continue in electrical engineering. Or so I came back and, you know, the intent was, and what I continue to do is to study electrical engineering. I did add on a second degree, which I was a Mandarin Chinese and so I can't remember, I mentioned I I served in Taiwan for those couple years and had an opportunity to kind of, you know, learn and study the language. So as I was doing that, I kind of came back and said, Well, if I've already put in the effort to learn the language and to study it, I might as well, you know, utilize it, or add it to the degree. And so I I really started, or I added that as a second degree to the first degree. So I came out with both the degree in Chinese or man or Chinese, as well as electrical engineering. So yes, continue to study that. And then from that, you know, kind of just as a part of that story. So I was coming out, kind of getting, you know, the senior year, kind of getting towards the end of that degree, and looked at and said, you know, what do I want to do when I grow up? And I still know if I know the full answer, but I did look at it and say, Hey, I, you know, I don't know exactly what I want to do when I grow up, but I don't, I like engineering. Engineering, but I don't want to be an engineer in the sense that, you know, not that I didn't like engineering, but it was one where a typical electrical engineers, you come out of graduate school, you go work for a big company. You're a very small cog and a very big Will you work for. You know, 1015, years, you gain enough experience to have any say your direction and what projects you work on or really have any impact. Not saying that's not really what I want to do when I grow up, or when I start into the working world. And so kind of with that, I, you know, I had a couple interests I enjoyed, you know, kind of the startup, small business, kind of that type of world. And I also found it interesting to on the legal aspect of intellectual property, so patents, trademarks, and really more. At the idea of, hey, you're going to work with a lot of cooling or cool inventions, cool people are working on a lot of unique things, and you get a lot more variety. And you get, you know, kind of be more impactful. And so that was kind of the the Crossroads I found myself at saying which, you know, kind of which direction I want to go. And, you know, kind of, rather than take one or the other, I kind of, I split the road and decided I was going to do both. So I went off to graduate school and did both an MBA or a master's in business administration as well as a law degree, kind of focused more on intellectual property. So went off and studied both of those kind of with the intent of, you know, I don't want to just be fit into one box or do just one thing, but I'd like to keep a foot in the business world, startup world, and have an opportunity to pursue my own business as well as doing the law degree. So I did that in a Case Western Reserve out in Cleveland, Ohio, studying both of those degrees Michael Hingson  16:34 when you were getting your degree in manner, in Chinese. Was that all about speaking the language, or was it also involved in history and civilization and understanding more about China? What was it like? Devin Miller  16:47 It was really more, certainly, there was a or, I guess, are you saying within college or within the mission itself? 16:54 In college? Okay, yeah. I mean, it was, Devin Miller  16:57 it was still primarily focused on the language. You know, the nice thing is, you can test out of a number of the, you know, entry level or their beginning classes, as long as you can show a proficiency. So there may have been some of that, and you still got, you know, some of the classes, would you still study a little bit of poetry, or, you know, within the language context, they've used poetry as a way to kind of learn different aspects of the language. You'd get a little bit of history, but pretty, or vast majority of focus was kind of both speaking as well as the the written and, you know, those are really as opposed to, like English speaking, where it's phonetics and you can or sound out and kind of understand what a you know, what something means by sounding it out, you don't have to know the word in order To, you know, to pronounce it. Chinese is not that way. So you have characters that are just every character you have to memorize. There is no phonetics. There's no way that you can look at a character and sound it out. And so there's a large amount of just memorizing, memorizing, you know, 20,000 characters to read a newspaper type of a thing. And then on the flip side is you have to learn the language, which is, you know, which are already focused on that, more on the mission, but you have to do pronunciation, so you can say the same word with different tones and it has entirely different meaning. So really, there was enough there on the language side, they tended to primarily focus on that, just because there was quite a bit there to Michael Hingson  18:19 dive into. It's a complicated language. Devin Miller  18:23 It it is certainly or uniquely different from English. I would say probably English to Chinese speakers is the hardest language because it's the most different from their language. And vice versa for English speaking Chinese is at least one of the this or harder languages because it is entirely different. So it is one that has a lot of intricacies that you get to learn. Michael Hingson  18:45 I took German in high school for three years, and then in college, I did a lot of shortwave listening and encountered radio Japan a bunch. So I actually took a year of Japanese, and I think from a written language, it's a lot more complicated than spoken language. I think it's a lot more straightforward than Chinese and a lot of ways easier to learn. But even so, it is different than than Latin languages by any standard. Devin Miller  19:16 But it is. It's an animal in and of itself, but it makes it fun. Michael Hingson  19:21 Yeah, that's right, it does make it fun. Incident. And then, as I said, it was an adventure. And all of that was, was an adventure. My master's is in physics. That was an adventure. And until you spend a lot of time dealing with physics and hopefully getting beyond just doing the math, you learn how much of a philosophical bent and how much about society and the way things work really is wrapped up in physics. So again, it's it's kind of fun, and unlike a lot of physicists or engineers. I've never thought that one is better or worse than the other. I think they both have purposes. And so as a physics person, I never pick on engineers. Devin Miller  20:11 I am, I wouldn't pick up. I wouldn't pick on any physics or physicists or physics majors, either, because that's equally, if not more difficult. And so there's a lot of learning that goes on and involved with all of them. But they're all of them are fun areas to Michael Hingson  20:26 study with. They are. So once you you got your master's degrees, and you you got your law degree, what did you go off and do? Devin Miller  20:36 Yeah, so I mean, I would probably back it up just a little bit. So kind of during that period where I was getting the degrees, couple things happened. Had a couple kids. So started out first kid while I was doing the, I guess the second year where I was in under or doing the law and MBA degree, doing it as a joint degree. And so had the had a kid. And then during that same period, the next year, about a year about a year and a half later, had another kid. And so that puts me as a it's a four year program, if you combine both of them together. And so I was in the kind of the third year, the four year program. And while I was doing those studies, you know, I had a I was doing a couple things. One is, I was doing the both, or studying both majors, raising the family. I was working about 20 hours as a law clerk or for a law firm, and then during that, I can't remember or if it was a flyer, or if it was, you know, an email or whatnot, but came across a business competition, or it's kind of a, it was kind of a, a multi disciplinary competition wherever, you know, people of different degrees and different fields of study would get together, you form a group of four or five, and you work on developing an idea, and then you would enter it into the competition and see how it goes. And so we did that the first year, and we did something, an idea to make Gym Bags less smelly, and then enter that in and took second place. And during that period, next year comes along, we're all in our final year of our degree. And as we're doing that, we are studying the degree and or entering the competition again. And we decided to do something different. It was for wearables. You know, this is before Apple Watch, or, you know, the Fitbit, or anything else. It was well before I knew that, but we just said, Hey, when I was there, thinking, hey, wouldn't it be cool I'd ran my or, I think, my second marathon that time. Wouldn't it be awesome if you could monitor your hydration level so that you can make sure you're staying well hydrated throughout and it helps with the air, not being a sore and being, you know, quicker recovery and performing better. And so out of that, took the genesis of that idea, entered it back into the business comp, or that is a new idea, into the business competition, and did that with the partners, and took second place again, still a little bitter, or bitter that about that, because the people that took first place has entered the same thing that they entered the previous year, but polished, or took the money they've earned previously and polished it made it look a little nicer, and won again because it looked the most polished. But that aside, was a great, or great competition. Enjoyed it. And from that, you know, said, Hey, I think this is a good idea. I think it can be a, you know, something that you could actually build a business around. And so said, Hey, or kind of told the the people that were in the the group with me, you know, we're all graduating. We're going different directions. Would be pretty hard to do a startup altogether. So why don't we do this? Or why don't you guys take all the money that I got, you know that we you're in some reward money, or, you know, prize money. If you take my portion, split it amongst yourselves, and I'll just take ownership of the idea, whatever it is, where, you know, wherever I take it, and simply own it outright, you know, basically buying them out. And so that's what I did. So coming out of, you know, getting the MBA in the law degree, that was kind of always the intent. So, or coming out of school, I went and joined a law firm here in Utah. Was a full time patent attorney, and then alongside, you know, had the side hustle, what I'd really say is kind of a second full time job to where I was, you know, pursuing that startup or small business alongside of doing the law firm. So that was kind of the the genesis for, as I graduated full time attorney working, you know, with a lot of our cool clients and other things, and then also incorporating the desire to do a startup or small business. And that's kind of been, really, the trajectory that I've taken throughout my career is really, you know, finding ways to combine or to pursue both interests together. Michael Hingson  24:26 What happened to the business? Devin Miller  24:28 Yeah, so it so it's still alive today. I've been, I exited. Now it's been a couple year and a half, two years somewhere in there. Have to think back. So it started out. So with the business I started out, it was actually one where, rewinding just a little bit when we when I got started, my dad was also an electrical engineer. He'd actually, you know, he's well or farther into his career, and he done a number of different things across their medical devices through his career. And so he kind of, or he joined on as kind of doing it with us. Hustle with me, and we took that, started to build it. We brought on some additional team members. We brought on an investor, and actually built out and grew the business. It also evolved. So we were starting to test or test out the technology have it with some colleges and some other, you know, athletes, which was a natural place to start it at and about that time, and we were getting kind of to that next hurdle where we either needed to get a further investment or cash infusion, you know, to kind of take it to a more of a marketable, you know, a except a Polish full or ready to go to market type of product. And at that time, as we're exploring that we had or came or got connected with somebody that was more in the diabetes monitoring, they were doing it more from a service base. But you know, the overlay as to kind of how the technologies are overlapped with what they're doing tended to work out pretty well. And so we ended up combining the business to be one, where it was redirected a lot of the technology we developed underlining to be more of a wearables for the diabetes monitor. So that was a number of years ago. I stayed on doing a lot of, some of the engineering and development, primarily more in the intellectual property realm, of doing a lot of patents and whatnot. And then about a year and a half, two years ago, got bought out, was exited from that company and and that continues on today. It's still alive and growing, and I kind of watch it from, you know, from a distance, so to speak, or kind of continue to maintain interest, but don't are not necessarily active within the business anymore. So that was kind of a long answer to a shorter question, but that's kind of where the business eventually evolved to. Michael Hingson  26:36 So now I'm sure that the company is doing things like developing or working with products like continuous glucose monitors and so on. Devin Miller  26:46 Yep, yeah, that's kind of the direction as to what they're headed you Michael Hingson  26:49 well, and what's what's been interesting about several of the CGM type devices is that for people who are blind, there's been a real push to try to get some of them to be accessible. And what finally occurred about a year ago, maybe two years ago, is that one of the devices that's out there was approved to actually incorporate an app on a smartphone, and when the app came out, then it was really easy, although it took an effort to convince people to pay attention to it and do it, but it became technically a lot easier to deal with access, because all you had to do was to make the app accessible. And so there now is a continuous glucose monitor that that is accessible, whereas you wherein you get all the information from the app through voiceover, for example, on the iPhone or through talkback on a android phone that you get when you're just looking at the screen, which is the way it really should be anyway, because If you're going to do it, you should be inclusive and make it work for everyone. Devin Miller  28:06 No, that's cool. Yeah, there's a number of I think, between, you know, being a prevalent, you know, issue that people are dealing with, to, you know, different trying to address things earlier on, and also to motivate people do healthier lifestyle. And kind of the direction I think, is headed where a lot of the the company that's continues on today, from our original technology, is on the non invasive side. So a lot of them have, you have to have a patch, or you have to have periodically prick, or put an arm, you know, arm, right? Something where has a needle in the arm. And this one is kind of trying hair working to take it to that next level, to where it's no longer having to be invasive, and it's really all without having air with sensors that don't require you to have any sort of pain or prick in order to be able to utilize it. So kind of fun to fun to see how the industry continues to evolve. Michael Hingson  28:55 Well, today, we're working on that, and tomorrow, of course, the tricorder. So you know, we'll, we'll get to Star Trek 29:03 absolutely one step at a time. Michael Hingson  29:05 Yeah, but I've kind of figured that people were certainly working on non invasive technology so that you didn't have to have the sensor stuck in your arm. And I'm not surprised that that that's coming, and we'll be around before too long, just because we're learning so much about other ways of making the measurements that it makes sense to be able to do that. Devin Miller  29:31 Yep, no, absolutely. You know, it is a hard nut to crack. The body is very complex. A lot of things going on, and to measure it, not invasively, is certainly a lot that goes into it, but I think there's a lot of good, good technologies coming out. A lot of progress is being made, and certainly fun to continue to see how the health devices continue to hit the market. So certainly a cool area. Michael Hingson  29:53 So why did you decide, or maybe it was a natural progression, but why did you decide to go into patent law? Yeah. Devin Miller  30:01 I mean, I think it was probably a natural progression, and in the sense that, you know, it is one where overall desire was, Hey, I like engineering from the sense I like to think or how things work and kind of break things down and to have a better understanding. So really, intellectual property law and patents and trademarks and others allowed me to work with a lot of startups and small businesses, see a lot of cool things that they're developing still play a hand in it, and yet, also not, you know, be mired down to a long project over multiple years where you, you know, you're a small cog in a big wheel. And so, yeah, that was kind of one where it fit well within kind of the overall business, you know, business desire and business aspect of what I wanted to accomplish, and also just overall, you know, enjoying it or enjoying it. So that's kind of where it might, you know, it married well with the the desire to do startups and small businesses, as well as to work with a lot of other startups and small businesses. Michael Hingson  30:55 That's a lot of fun, to be able to deal with startups and see a lot of new and innovative kinds of things. And being in patent law, you probably see more than a lot of people, which does get to be exciting in an adventure, especially when you see something that looks like it has so much potential. Yep. Devin Miller  31:14 No, it is. It is fun. I get to see everything from I've worked on everything from boat anchors to credit card thing or devices that help elderly people to remove them more easily, from their wallet to AI to drones to software other or software platforms to medical devices. So it gives a ability to have a pretty good wide exposure to a lot of cool, different, you know, very different types of innovations, and that makes her just, you know, a fun, fun time, and be able to work or work with the air businesses as they develop. Are all those different technologies? Michael Hingson  31:50 Well, on the the law side of things, what's the difference between a provisional patent and a non provisional filing? Devin Miller  31:57 Yeah, so, so I don't back it up, and I'll get to your question. But maybe I'd set the stages to when you're looking at what is the difference between a patent and trademark and copyright, because a lot of times when people look at that, that's probably a good question too. Provisional trademark, or I want a, you know, or a non provisional copyright, or whatever it might be, and kind of get the terminology mixed up. So if you're to take it one step back, a provisional patent app or a patent is something that goes towards protecting an invention. So something that has the functionality that does something, that accomplishes something, a trademark is going to be something that is protecting of a brand. So name of a company, name of a product, a cash, phrase, a logo, and those type of things all really fall under trademarks and copyrights are going to be something that's more creative in nature. So a painting, a sculpture, a picture, a book, you know, all those type of things are going to fall under copyrights. And so really, when you're looking at it, you know, kind of breaking it down initially, you look at it as you know, which one is it. And so now to your question, Michael Hingson  32:58 well, before you go there, before you go ahead, before you go there. So if I'm writing software, does that fall under patent or copyright? I would assume if the software is to do something, it would be a patent. Devin Miller  33:12 So software primarily is under a patent. So there's, technically, you can copyright software. Now there's, it's pretty limited in its scope of protection. So if you're to do or software and do it under a copyright, really, all it protects is the exact way that you wrote the code. So you know, got it using this exact coding language. If somebody come along, copy and paste my code, you'll be protected. But it doesn't protect the functionality of how this code works or what it does. It is purely just how you wrote the code. So most of the time, when you're looking at software, it's really going to be more under a patent, because you're not going to want to just simply protect the identical way that you wrote the code, but rather what it does and what it does, yeah. So yep. So yeah, you for if you're to do as as your example, software, primarily, you're going to it's going to fall under patents. Michael Hingson  34:01 Okay, so anyway, back to provisional and non provisional. Devin Miller  34:05 Yeah, so, and when you're looking at doing a patent, you can do there's a couple different types of patents. One is a design patent. It really just goes to something the esthetic nature, the look and feel of a of an invention. So if you're thinking of the iPhone, you know, used to have the curved edges. I had the circle or a button at the bottom. It had, you know, the speaker placement and all those things. And it was just that outward appearance, not the functionality, could go under a design patent, but what the primary patent, which is what most people pursue, is what's called the utility patent application. And the utility patent application is really going towards the functionality of how something works. So the utility, how it works, what it does, and then kind of the purpose of it. And so with that, when you're looking at pursuing a utility patent application, there are a couple different types of patents that you can or types of utility patent patent applications. So. As you mentioned, one is called a provisional patent application. The other one is called a non provisional patent application. So a provisional patent application is kind of set up primarily, a lot of times for startups or small businesses where they're going to have a some product or an innovation that they're working on. They're in earlier stages. They're wanting to kind of protect what they have while they continue to develop it, and kind of flush it out. So provisional patent application is set up to be a one year placeholder application. So it will get, you know, you file it, you'll get patent pending, you'll get a date of invention, and it'll give you a year to decide if you want to pursue a full patent application or not. So you can file that gives you that one year time frame as a placeholder. The non provisional patent application would be the full patent application. So that would be what has, all the functionality, all the features, all the air, formalities and air, and it will go through the examination process. We'll go look at it for patentability. So those are kind of the difference provisional, one year, placeholder, less expensive, get your patent pending, versus the non provisional, that's the full patent application and gives you kind of that, or we'll go through examination. Michael Hingson  36:12 Do most people go through the provisional process just because it not only is less expensive, but at least it puts a hold and gives you a place. Devin Miller  36:22 It really just depends on where people are at. So kind of, you know, a lot of times people ask, Hey, well, what would you recommend? And I'll usually say, hey, there are typically two reasons why I would do a provisional patent application. And if you don't fall into either of those camps, then I would probably do a non provisional patent. Got it. So generally, the two reasons I get one is certainly budgetary. Give you an example. So our flat fee, you know, we do our primarily everything, flat fee in my firm, and a provisional patent application to prepare and file it, our flat fee is 2500 versus a non provisional patent application is 6950 so one is, Hey, your startup, small business, to have a limited funds, you're wanting to get a level of protection in place while you continue to pursue or develop things, then you would oftentimes do that as a provisional patent application. And the other reason, a lot of times where I would recommend it is, if you're saying, Hey, we've got a initial innovation, we think it's going to be great. We're still figuring things out, so we'd like to get something in place while we continue to do that research and develop it and kind of further figure it out. So that would be kind of, if you fall into one of those camps where it's either budgetary overlay, or it's one where you're wanting to get something in place and then take the next year to further develop it, then a provisional patent application is oftentimes a good route. There are also a lot of clients say, Hey, I'm, you know, we are pretty well. Did the Research Development getting ready to release it in the marketplace. While we don't have unlimited funds, we still have the ability to just simply go or go straight to a non provisional so we can get the examination process started, and then they'll go that route. So both of them are viable route. It's not kind of necessarily. One is inherently better or worse than the other is kind of more where you're at along the process and what, what kind of fits your needs the best. Michael Hingson  38:09 But at least there is a process that gives you options, and that's always good. Absolutely, patent laws, I well, I won't say it's straightforward, but given you know, in in our country today, we've got so many different kinds of things going on in the courts and all that, and sometimes one can only shake one's head at some of the decisions that are made regarding politics and all that, but that just seems to be a whole lot more complicated and a lot less straightforward than what you do With patent law? Is that really true? Or are there lots of curves that people bend things to go all sorts of different ways that make life difficult for you? Devin Miller  38:50 Um, probably a little bit of both. I think that it so. The law, legal system in general, is a much more slower moving enemy, so it does have a bit more of a kind of a basis to anticipate where things are headed in general. Now, the exception is, there always is an exception to the rule. Is that anytime the Supreme Court gets involved with patent law cases, I'd say 95% of the time, they make it worse rather than better. So, you know, you get judges that none of them are really have an experience or background in patent law. They've never done it. They really don't have too much familiarity with it, and now they're getting posed questions that are fairly involved in intricate and most of the time when they make decisions, they make it worse. It's less clear. You know, it's not as great of understanding, and it otherwise complicates things more. And so when you get the Supreme Court involved, then they can kind of make it more difficult or kind of shake things up. But by and large, it is a not that there isn't a lot of or involved in going through the process to convince the patent and examiner the patent office of patentability and make sure it's well drafted and has the it's good of coverage and scope, but at least there is, to a degree, that ability to anticipate. Hate, you know what it what's going to be required, or what you may likely to be looking at. You know? The other exception is, is, you know, the, ironically, I think the patent office is the only budget or producing or budget positive entity within all of the government. So every other part of the government spends much more money than they ever make. The Patent Office is, I think the, I think the postal office at one point was the other one, and they have, now are always in the in the red, and never make any money. But, you know, they are the patent office. Now, the problem with that is, you think, great, well now they can reinvest. They can approve, they should have the best technology, they should be the most up to date. They should have, you know, all the resources because they're self funding, and yet, there's always a piggy bank that the government goes to raid and redirects all those funds to other pet projects. And so, or the patent office is always, perpetually underfunded, as ironic as that is, because they're getting, always getting the piggy bank rated, and so with that, you know, they are, if you're to go into a lot of the patent office, their interfaces, their websites or databases, their systems, it feels like you're the onset of the or late 90s, early 2000s as far as everything goes. And so that always is not necessarily your question, but it's always a bit aggravating that you know you can't, as an example, can't submit color drawings. People ask, can you submit videos? Nope, you can't submit any videos of your invention, you know, can you provide, you know, other types of information? Nope, it's really just a written document, and it is line drawings that are black and white, and you can't submit anything beyond that. So there's one where I think eventually it will sometime, maybe shift or change, but it's going to be not anytime soon. I don't think there's any time on the horizon, because they're kind of stuck it once they move, moved over to the lit or initially onto the computer system, that's about where that evolution stopped. Michael Hingson  41:51 Well, the other thing though, with with videos, especially when you get AI involved and so on, are you really seeing a video of the invention. Or are you seeing something that somebody created that looks great, but the invention may not really do it. So I can understand their arguments, but there have to be ways to deal with that stuff. Devin Miller  42:13 Yeah, and I think that even be prior to AI, even we just had, you know, videos been around for 20 or 30 years, even, you know, digital format or longer. That probably, and the problem is, I think it's more of the search ability. So if you have a drawing, you can more easily search drawings and compare them side by side, and they'll do it. If you have a video, you know what? What format is the video? And is it a, you know, dot movie, or dot MOV, or is it.mp for is it color? Is it black and white? How do you capture it? Is it zoomed in as a kind of show all the details? Or is it zoomed out? And I think that there's enough difficulty in comparing video side by side and having a rigid enough or standardized format, the patent office said, man, we're not going to worry about it. Yes, so we could probably figure something out, but that's more work than anybody, any administration or any of the directors of the patent office ever want to tackle so it's just always kind of kicked down the road. Michael Hingson  43:06 Do they ever actually want to see the invention itself? Devin Miller  43:12 Not really, I mean, you so the short answer is no. I mean, they want to see the invention as it's captured within the the patent application. So the problem Michael Hingson  43:21 is, the drawing, they don't want to see the actual device, or whatever it is, well, and a lot Devin Miller  43:24 of times, you know as a inventors, they you know as a patent applicants, as the inventors and the owners, you're saying, hey, but I want to show them the invention. Problem is, the invention doesn't always mirror exactly what's showing in the patent application. Because you're on generation three of your product patent application is still in generation one, yeah, and so it doesn't mirror, and so the examiners are supposed to, they don't always, or aren't always good, and sometimes pull things and they shouldn't, but they're supposed to just consider whatever is conveyed in the patent application. Yeah, it's a closed world. And so bringing those additional things in now you can, so technically, you can request a live in office interview with the examiner, where you sit down live. You can bring in your invention or other or details and information, and when you do it live, face to face with an interview, you can walk them through it. Most very few people attorneys ever do that because one clients aren't going to want to pay for you to one of the offices, put you up in a hotel, you know, sit there, spend a day or two to or with the examiner to walk them through it. It just adds a significant amount of expense. Examiners don't particularly like it, because they have to dedicate significantly more time to doing that. Yeah, they're allotted, so they lose they basically are doing a lot of free work, and then you're pulling in a lot of information that they really can't consider. So you technically can. But I would say that you know, the likelihood of the majority of attorneys, 99 point whatever, percent don't do that, including myself. I've never been to do a live or live one, just because it just doesn't, it doesn't have enough advantage to make it worthwhile. Michael Hingson  44:58 Well, in talking about. About the law and all the things that go on with it. One of the things that comes to mind is, let's say you have somebody in the United States who's patenting, or has made a patent. What happens when it all goes to it gets so popular, or whatever, that now it becomes an international type of thing. You've got, I'm sure, all sorts of laws regarding intellectual property and patents and so on internationally. And how do you get protection internationally for a product? Devin Miller  45:32 File it in each country separately. So, you know, there are people, and I understand the inclinations, hey, I want to get a worldwide or global patent that covers everything in every country. The short answer is, you can't. I mean, technically, you could, if you file a patent into every country separately, nobody, including when I used to work or do work for companies including Intel and Amazon and Red Hat and Ford. They don't have patents in every single country throughout the world because they just don't have enough marketplace. You know, you go to a very small, let's say, South African country that you know, where they just don't sell their product enough in it, it just doesn't make the sense, or the courts or the systems or the patent office isn't well enough to find, or it's not enforceable enough that it just doesn't capture that value. And so there isn't a ability to have a global, worldwide patent, and it really is one where you have to file into each country separately. They each have their own somewhat similar criteria, still a different, somewhat similar process, but they each have their own criteria in their process that has to go through examination. So when you're looking at you know when you want to go for whether it's in the US or any other country, when you're deciding where you want to file it, it's really a matter of what marketplaces you're going to be selling the product into. So if you look at it and you know, I have as an example, some clients that 95% of their marketplace is all in the US, that's where they anticipate, that's probably where they're going to sell it. Well, yes, you could go and find, if you have 2% of your marketplace in Japan, you could go file a patent and get it into Japan, but you have such a small amount of your marketplace that's probably there that it doesn't make sense. And vice versa will have as an example. And a lot of times in the medical devices, they'll a lot of times file both in the EU as well as in the US, because those are two of the predominant medical device and are places where a lot of innovation is going on, where there's a lot of focus on utilization, development, medical devices, and there's just a lot of that demand. And so you're really going to look at it is which, where's your marketplace. The other times are the people, a lot of times, they'll get tripped up on so they'll say, Well, I probably need to file into China, right? And I said, Well, maybe because the inclination is, well, everybody just goes to China. They'll knock off the product. And so I want to have a patent in China so that I can, you know, fight against the knockoffs. And that isn't while I again, understand why they would ask that question. It wouldn't be the right way to convey it. Because if you if all it is is they you have no real, you know, no desire, no plan, to go into China. You're not going to sell it. You're not going to build a business there. If they're knocking it off and just just doing it in China, so to speak, then they're not. There isn't going to be a need to file a patent in China, because you don't have any marketplace in there. There's nothing really to protect. And if somebody makes it in China as a just picking on China, making as an example, and imports it into the US, you can still enforce your patent or otherwise do or utilize it to stop people from importing knock off because it's in the US, because they're, yeah, exactly, they're selling it, importing it, or otherwise doing activities in the US. So it's really a matter of where your marketplace is, not where you think that somebody might knock it off. Or, Hey, I'm gonna get a try and get a global patent, even though my marketplace is really in one or two spots. Michael Hingson  48:38 What about products like, say, the iPhone, which are commonly used all over. Devin Miller  48:44 Yeah, they're going to do, they'll do a lot of countries. They still Michael Hingson  48:47 won't do. They'll still do kind of country by country. Devin Miller  48:50 Yeah, they'll now, they'll do a lot of countries. Don't get me wrong, a lot of right. Phones are sold throughout the world, but they'll still look at it as to where it is, and they still have, you know, issues with them. So one of the interesting tidbits as an example, so going back and rewinding your time, taking apple as an example. You know, they came out with, originally, the iPod, then they had iPhone, and then they had the iPad. Now the question is, when they originally came out with their watch, what did they call it? 49:17 Apple Watch? Apple Watch. Now, why Devin Miller  49:20 didn't they call the I wash, which is what it made sense. It goes right along with the iPhone, the iPad, the iPhone, you know, the all of those iPod on that. And it was because somebody had already got a trademark in China that was for a different company, unrelated to the apple that had it for the iWatch. And so when Apple tried to go into the country, they tried to negotiate. They tried to bully. They weren't able to successfully get the rights or to be able to use I wash within China. China was a big enough market, and so they had and rather than try and split it and call it the I wash everywhere but China and trying to have the Apple Watch in China, they opted to call it the Apple Watch. Now I think they might. Of eventually resolve that, and I think it's now can be referred to as the I watch, I'm not sure, but for, at least for a long period of time, they couldn't. They called it the Apple Watch when they released it, for that reason. So even if you have, you know, a big company and one of the biggest ones in the world, you still have to play by the same rules. And why, you can try and leverage your your size and your wealth and that to get your way, there's still those, there's still those hindrances. So that's kind of maybe a side, a side note, but it's kind of one that's interesting. Michael Hingson  50:30 So that's the trademark of how you name it. But how about the technology itself? When the Apple Watch was created, I'm assuming that they were able to patent that. Devin Miller  50:39 Yeah, they will have, I'm sure they probably have anywhere from 30 to 100 to 200 I mean, they'll have a significant amount of patents, even it's just within the Apple Watch, everything from the screen, the display, how it's waterproof, how it does communications, how does the battery management, how does the touch, how does the interface, all of those are going to be different aspects that they continue to, you know, did it originally in the original Apple Watch, and are always iterating and changing as they continue to improve the technology. So generally, you know that, I'm sure that you will start out with as a business of protecting you're getting a foundational patent where you kind of protect the initial invention, but if it's successful and you're building it out, you're going to continue to file a number of patents to capture those ongoing innovations, and then you're going to file it into all of the countries where you have a reasonable market size that makes it worthwhile to make the investment. Michael Hingson  51:32 So if you have a new company and they've got a name and all that, what should new businesses do in terms of looking and performing a comprehensive search for of trademarks and so on to make sure they are doing the right thing. Devin Miller  51:49 Yeah, a couple of things. I mean, it wanted, if you're it depends on the size of company, your budget, there's always the overlay of, you know, you can want to do everything in the world, and if you don't have the budget, then you have to figure out what goes in your budget. But if I'll take it from kind of a startup or a small business perspective, you know, you first thing you should do is just as stupid and as easy as it sounds, you should go do a Google search. Or, now that you have chat GPT, go do a chat BT search and a Google search. But, you know, because it's interesting as it sounds, or, you know, is you think that, oh, that's, you know, kind of give me or an automatic I'll have still even till today, people come into my office. They'll say, Hey, I've got this great idea, this great invention, and a Lacher getting a patent on it, and they'll start to walk me through it. I'm like, you know, I could have sworn I've seen that before. I've seen something very similar. We'll sit down at my desk, take two minutes, do a Google search, and say, so is this a product that you're thinking of? Oh, yeah, that's exactly it. Okay. Well, you can't really get a patent on something that's already been invented and out there, and so, you know, do a little bit of research yourself. Now there is a double edged sword, because you can do research and sometimes you'll have one or two things happen. You'll not having the experience and background, not entirely knowing what you're doing. You'll do research, and you'll either one say, Hey, I've done a whole bunch of research. I can't really find anything that's similar. When, in fact, there's a lot of similar things out there. There's a patent, and people will say, yeah, it's the same, it's the same invention, but my purpose is a little bit different. Well, you can't if it's the exact same or invention. Whether or not you say your purpose is different, doesn't get around their patent and same thing on a trademark. Yeah, their brand's pretty much 53:20 identical, but they're Devin Miller  53:21 doing legal services and I'm doing legal tools, and so it's different, and it's, again, it's one where there's there they have a false sense of security because they rationalize in their head why it's different, or vice versa. You also get people that will say, Hey, this is even though it's significantly different, it's the same purpose. And so while, while they really could go do the product, while they could get a patent or a trademark, because they think that it's just overall kind of the same concept, then they talk themselves out of it when they don't need to. So I would say, start out doing some of that initial research. I would do it if I was in their shoes, but temper it with, you know, do it as an initial review. If there's something that's identical or the same that's out there, then it gives you an idea. Probably, you know, you're not going to be able to add a minimum, get or patent their intellectual property protection, and you may infringe on someone else's but if you you know, if there's, there's some differences, or have to do that initial research, that's probably the time, if you're serious about, you know, investing or getting business up and going, you've probably engaged an attorney to do a more formal search, where they have the experience in the background and ability to better give a better understanding or determination as to whether or not something presents an issue. Michael Hingson  54:32 Yeah, well, that's understandable. If I've developed something and I have a patent for it, then I suddenly discovered that people are selling knockoffs or other similar devices on places like Amazon and so on. What do you do about that? Because I'm sure there must be a bunch of that that that does go on today. Devin Miller  54:53 Yeah, yes, it does. I mean, I wouldn't say it's not as probably as prevalent as some people think. In other words, not every single. Product, right, being knocked off. Not everything is copied. Sometimes it's because, you know, either I don't have the ability, I don't have the investment, I don't have the, you know, it's not as big enough marketplace, I don't have the manufacturing, I don't have the connections, or it is simply, am respectful, and I'm not going to go do a discord because I'm not going to try and rip off, you know, what I think is someone else's idea. So it doesn't happen that as frequently as I think sometimes people think it does, but it certainly does occur. You know, there's a competitive marketplace, there's a profit incentive, and if there's a good product that's out there that people think they can do something with, and there's a motivation to do it, either because people are unaware that it's an issue, or that they they're unaware that they can't copy it or is protected. And so if you get into that, you know, there's a few potentially different recourses. One is, you know, a lot of times you'll start out with the cease and desist.

Nach dem Weltwirtschaftsforum in Davos diskutieren Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther, ob die internationale Ordnung in eine neue Phase eintritt – und welche Rolle Europa in einer multipolaren Welt künftig spielen kann.

What if your website is quietly turning people away without you ever knowing it? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, Michael Hingson talks with Lori Osbourne, a branding strategist and web accessibility advocate whose personal health journey reshaped how she helps businesses show up online. Lori shares how unclear messaging, weak branding, and inaccessible websites block trust, visibility, and growth. Together, they unpack why accessibility is not just about compliance, but about inclusion, credibility, and better SEO, and how simple changes like clearer messaging, alt text, contrast, and video captions can transform both user experience and business results. Highlights: 00:01 – Understand why disability is often left out of diversity conversations and why that needs to change 13:56 – Learn how a life-altering health crisis forced a complete reset in career and priorities 27:10 – Discover why a website alone is not enough to establish authority or visibility 34:19 – Learn why unclear messaging is the biggest reason websites fail to convert 44:43 – Understand what website accessibility really means and who it impacts 59:42 – Learn the first step to take if your online presence feels overwhelming About the Guest: Lori Osborne, affectionately known as The Authority Amplifier, is a Brand Strategist, Website Consultant, and the founder of BizBolster Web Solutions. With over 25 years in technology and nearly a decade of experience helping coaches, consultants, authors, and speakers build a profitable online presence, Lori is the powerhouse behind The Authority Platform™, a complete done-for-you system designed to transform overwhelm into opportunity. Her signature branding process, The Authority Blueprint™, helps clients clarify their message, define their visual and verbal identity, and identify what truly sets them apart in their field. She then brings that strategy to life with an authority-building website - strategically crafted on the Duda platform to reflect credibility, connect authentically, and convert consistently - without the headaches of WordPress maintenance or tech confusion. Unlike agencies that offer cookie-cutter sites or developers who disappear after launch, Lori builds long-term relationships by delivering personalized, high-touch service. Through The Authority Platform™, she combines brand clarity, trust-building web design, lead generation funnels, SEO, accessibility, and sales systems into one cohesive, visibility-driving engine. Lori is known for her warmth, resilience, and insightfulness, and for making her clients feel fully seen and heard. If you're ready to stop spinning your wheels with digital tools that don't deliver, and finally create a platform that amplifies your voice, authority, and impact, Lori is your strategic partner. Ways to connect with Lori**:** https://www.bizbolster.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/loriaosborne/ https://www.facebook.com/bizbolster https://www.instagram.com/bizbolsterlori Link to Freebie: https://www.bizbolster.com/vip-visibility-audit About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:17 Well, hello everyone. Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I am your host, Michael Hingson, or you can call me Mike, it's fine, and I gave the full title of the podcast for a very specific reason. Where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, typically, diversity people never want to include disabilities in what they discuss or what they do. And if you ask the typical diversity people, what's diversity? They'll talk about race, gender, sexual orientation, and they don't deal with disabilities. But the reality is, and they say that disability isn't a real mindset. Well, Balderdash, it is. Just asked the 25% of America's population, according to the CDC, that has a disability, and they'll tell you that disability is a minority. But the reason I bring it all up is today, we get to talk with Lori Osborne, and she is a person who's been very deeply involved in website development, in branding and coaching, and she is very concerned about and likes to try to help deal with the issue of accessibility on websites. So we're going to have a fun time talking about all of that, much less the platform she uses, as opposed to WordPress, and I'm really curious to hear more about that, because I've my website is a WordPress website, but, but, you know, I think there are so many different ways to deal with things today. We'll, we'll have a fun time. But Lori, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Thank you Lori Osbourne  02:56 so much for having me. Mike, I love being here. Cannot wait to talk. Michael Hingson  03:01 Well, let's do it. Why don't we start by you telling us kind about the early Laurie growing up and all that stuff, and kind of how you got started. Okay, start at the beginning. Lori Osbourne  03:14 At the beginning. All right. I was born in San Diego. More your neck of the woods. San Diego Naval Hospital, but only got to live in California for two years, which I've always been disappointed about. My my family had my grandfather built a home in La Jolla. So you know, I was I've always been jealous of how my mom got to grow up, but I only got to spend two years there and then I got moved to Norman, Oklahoma, home of the Sooners, never watched football, never went to one football game my entire life. Michael Hingson  03:51 I've never been to a professional or college football game. My wife had, but I never got to go to a football game. I think it'd be kind of fun to do once, as long as I could still pick it up on the radio and know what's going on. Lori Osbourne  04:03 There you go. Yeah, I had zero interest in football until I met my current husband in 2011 and he doesn't miss a professional football game, an NFL game. So I have, I have come to embrace it and enjoy the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Kansas City Chiefs. So there you go. Michael Hingson  04:24 So you're in Florida and you don't root for a Florida team, huh? Lori Osbourne  04:29 I don't, we won't hold it again, you know. Well, you know, I'm one of those. So I moved from Oklahoma to Colorado to Denver area. So I was a Broncos fan when I lived in Colorado, but that was the days of, oh my gosh. Now my mind is going to completely go blank. This is so embarrassing. The the Great, the greatest Broncos player who is now a general manager, John, oh my gosh. Can think of a it'll come to me. But anyway, he, you know, we. Were actually like, yes, thank you. Thank you very much. Elway. Yes, I was a guest. So we were actually, like, winning Super Bowls when I first moved there, so, you know, and then it went, kind of went. Then I became a Peyton Manning fan, and my husband's from Pennsylvania, and he's like, you can't just change your mind about who you support every time we move. And I'm like, but I can't, yeah, why not? So when we moved to Florida, I Michael Hingson  05:26 the Jaguars, jaguars, yeah, yeah, they Lori Osbourne  05:29 just haven't been a great team. And I I watched Mahoney, Mahoney play for Kansas City, and I just fell in love with how he plays and just his style and his leadership, and I just became a Kansas City fan, just because I love watching him. And last season was a little disappointing because he didn't throw as much, but, but, you know, he's, he's amazing, so that's that's my reasoning. Michael Hingson  06:03 So So you you didn't fall in love with Travis Kelsey and try to go steal him away from Taylor Swift before things got serious? Lori Osbourne  06:12 No, no, I was already in love with my current husband. Michael Hingson  06:15 So see, tell him that there are some things and some loves that do transcend location. Lori Osbourne  06:23 There you go. Yes, absolutely. Well, you know, he's so obsessed with football that we I actually included in our marriage vows that I would support him through his two fantasy football teams and a lifetime of football in my future, because I knew I was marrying football when I married him. Michael Hingson  06:46 One of the things that spoils me about sports out here, and it's not so much anymore, but it used to be the case is, I think that here in especially southern California, we had the best sports announcers in the business. We had Vin Scully doing baseball, and I think that it'll be a long, long time before anyone comes up to the caliber of Vince Scully. And there, there are things that they do now that that really messed that up. But Vinnie was a was was the best. We had Dick Enberg, who did football and and other people. And Chick Hearn did basketball. Chick hurr had talked so fast that I don't know how he was able to do it, but I learned how to listen fast because I grew up listening to Chick Hearn new basketball. I love it. So, so I got spoiled on sports, listening to those announcers. I keep up with football from a news standpoint, especially when it gets close to the Super Bowl, so I can decide who I'm going to if anybody for for in the Super Bowl when they have it. Yeah, I do kind of like the Rams, because I live out here and I've always kind of liked them, although I was mad at them when they moved to St Louis for a while, but, but still, they're the Rams. I mean, we'll see what they do this year. I think they've got a good coach, but I by no means am a football expert or anything like that. I keep up though. Lori Osbourne  08:08 Me neither. I, yeah, I kind of joke, you know, my husband will watch like, you know, eight games at once, the red zone or the whatever, and it's flipping around. And I just can't, so I just joke I'm a fourth quarter watcher. On Sunday nights, Monday nights, I'll watch the fourth quarter and because that's where you know if it's gonna happen, that's where it's gonna happen if it's gonna be worth watching. Michael Hingson  08:30 Yeah, well, I'll be interested to see what happens tomorrow, because the Chargers are playing the chiefs in Brazil. Lori Osbourne  08:41 Yes, and I don't, I don't even know if we're going to get to watch it, because, you know, the NFL spread out across all these different platforms now, and if you don't have the platform, you're out of luck. Michael Hingson  08:52 I think it's going to be on TV. It'll be watchable, but it starts at 530 Pacific Time, and I don't quite understand that. If they're doing it live, that would mean it's going to start at nine. Start at 930 in the evening in San Paulo. So I don't know how all that's going to work. We'll see. Lori Osbourne  09:07 Yeah, yeah, we shall see. Yeah, we're I don't know if we're watching tomorrow nights, but my husband's definitely watching tonight, for sure. Well, I Michael Hingson  09:15 don't think there are more games on tomorrow other than that one, so maybe he will. And maybe you actually get to focus and just see one game, Lori Osbourne  09:24 right, right? That's, that's, that's the nice part about the non Sunday games. Usually it's just, Michael Hingson  09:31 well, so you, so you grew up and you, you only lived in California for two years, and then where did you go? Lori Osbourne  09:40 I lived in Norman, that's right, until I was 29 I actually found my birth father when I was 23 and moved to Colorado to get to know him and his family. Michael Hingson  09:55 So you were a diamond. Lori Osbourne  10:00 Not really. I just, he was just never part of my life. Your mom married someone else, yeah, okay, yeah. I always had. My mom just didn't have my dad. And it's, you know, it's been an interesting experience, because, you know, being in my 20s when I met him, and my mom and I were opposite growing up, and I never understood my personality, because she was quiet and passive and wanted to work in the same job her entire life, and I was the opposite. I was vivacious and loud and aggressive and always wanted to be self employed. Then I met my dad and went, Oh, it explained it all, I'm just like him. It's crazy how the you know the genes work for sure, Michael Hingson  10:51 but you got to know him, and the relationship was a good one. Lori Osbourne  10:55 Yeah, yeah, right. We just, he's in Idaho now. We just got back a couple of weeks ago from visiting. I mean, it's been interesting, trying to enter a family, you know, in your 20s is is bizarre. I kind of, I kind of equate it to being an in law, like, I'm not quite all the way in, because I, you know, I didn't grow up with these people. They don't know me. But, yeah, it's been interesting. So where in Idaho, near Coeur d'Alene Sand Point near Michael Hingson  11:25 standpoint, I have a brother in law who lives in Ketchum, in Sun Valley, and who is an avid skier, and has been an avid skier basically his whole life. Now the real big question is, of course, where is your father when it comes to football, Lori Osbourne  11:46 my father does not sit still. Okay? That is, that is one way that we are different. He I joke that he'll probably outlive me. I mean, he lives on 14 acres. I think he just, they just sold 40 Acres. But he doesn't. He never sits still. He He's always going, going, going, working on, you know, he had, he had his business, which he sort of still does. But he works on fences or helps with the does something with the horses or the hay or the, you know, it's just it. He works his plan does not I don't think he the TV when we were there was on music the entire time. Yep. Michael Hingson  12:30 So hardly a person who tends to watch football. Well, that's okay. So you, you grew up in Norman? Did you go to college there or in the area? Lori Osbourne  12:43 I went for a year and then couldn't figure out how to keep paying for it. I honestly didn't even realize financial aid was a thing. So I started in the workforce and became a recruiter, technical recruiter, pretty early in my career. I did that for 12 years, and then started my own recruiting business and got my degree during that time. So I got a bachelor's degree in business administration, 4.0 average while working. Proud of that, but I was in my 30s, and then I got cancer right after that, had colon cancer at 36 which I blame an 18 year abusive, horrible marriage, I think really led to that, but it pushed me To get out of that horrible abuse of marriage. And then a few years later, I met my current husband, and I am the happiest I've ever been, Michael Hingson  13:51 but you also were able to, in one way or another, beat the cancer Lori Osbourne  13:58 I was, yes, it was actually stage one colon cancer. Only had surgery so that one, yeah, didn't even have to have chemo or radiation. And actually, what got me into my current business? I was a when I got divorced, I did this is kind of funny to me. I when I got divorced, I decided I no longer wanted to be straight commission, and because I had gotten a job after after the cancer, and now I'm self employed. And so why? I think I wouldn't want to be straight commission, but it's okay to be self employed, but it's a completely different mindset. You know yourself very much a different mindset. But I was in tech. I moved from recruiting into hands on technology. I did project management, software testing, I looked at websites and helped design websites from a business perspective, but I was never, never a coder, never, you know, did the visual design? Nine and in 2015 I we had just moved to the opposite side of Denver. We had just changed, I had just changed jobs, had a brand new home, and then found out I had a brain tumor. Michael Hingson  15:15 Oh, gosh, yeah, you're just an attention getting person. Lori Osbourne  15:19 That's all you. I know. That's it. I just walk around going, yep, that's it. So, yeah. So I, I ended up leaving the job because it was, it was very traumatic. I ended up having two surgeries. They couldn't remove the tumor. It's part of my carotid artery. It's a meningioma. It's benign, but it's part of my carotid artery, and it was causing my left eye to droop, so they went in to get it off the optical nerve and nicked the carotid and caused a brain bleed. And that brain bleed caused that drooping eye to become a half blind eye. So I ended up, for about a year and a half, I had double vision. I also had found out I had a stroke from it, I was having problems with words and forming, you know, the right words. And I had no tolerance for stress for a long time, so there was no way I was going back to project management in the IT world, right? This wasn't so I literally, I spent about a year recovering and just started messing around, going, Okay, well, what can I do with the talents that I have? And I started building a website on Squarespace, and it was called Health Net, like grandma. And it was just talking about my I lost my mother and my grandmother to cancer at 63 both at 63 and then I had gone through what I went through. And I just wanted to share the stories, you know, the what I've learned from a health perspective. And in doing that, went, wow. Why have I not been developing websites the last 20 years? This is what I should be doing. I love this, and I bet other business owners could really use some help doing this. And that's when my business was born. Michael Hingson  17:20 Wow. How did they discover the brain tumor? Lori Osbourne  17:26 It started with me falling asleep at my brand new job desk. Was I could not hold my eyes open. I actually thought it was an adrenal reaction to leaving a super high stress job to a very boring job, but it was not. They did all these tests. They put me on thyroid medication, which helped, and then my left eye started drooping, like literally within weeks together and and it was funny, because they they sent me to an eye doctor, and the eye doctor sent me to an eye surgeon, and they wanted to do surgery on it. And I'm like, don't you want to figure out why this is happening? Like, I don't want you to touch my eye until you know why my eye is drooping. And my doctor thought that was the craziest thing she'd ever heard. So she goes, Well, have we done an MRI yet? And I said, No, so they sent me for an MRI that day. And lo and behold, not only do you have a brain tumor, but you have had a stroke. Okay. Gosh, you know, she did not want to share that news, those news with me. She was very embarrassed. Probably, well, Michael Hingson  18:43 but you need to know, yeah, and clearly you already had demonstrated that you had an analytical mind, and it would be valuable for you to know, because it would help you in dealing with making decisions, or thinking about what decisions to make going forward, right? Yeah, so you did. So you went through the surgeries and all of that, and what, what happened to your your left eye, Lori Osbourne  19:10 it, it's still mostly blind. I have a sliver of vision that I can't control. So if I go to the eye doctor, they try to get me to look at the chart, and I can't focus it on the chart, and I get very frustrated. I blocked it for the first year. Now my eyes are so it's it's developed its own way of working, so I can't even block it anymore without causing worse headaches than I already have. Bad headaches kind of came out of all of this. So I really just live with it. I live with the headaches, and I ignore it as much as I possibly can and and hope it's improved slightly over. The last 10 years, they told me it would never improve. But, you know, our brains are amazing things, and it's it's trying, but it's still not. I just tell them make the left eye prescription the same as the right eye because it makes no difference. Yeah. Michael Hingson  20:17 Well, so with, with with all that you've you've dealt with, with, with this clearly, you figured out a way to go forward, and you've, now, I assume, used all that happened to you, and you've analyzed it in some way or another, that you have made some decisions about what you want to do with your life, which is namely the whole brand development and web development and dealing with accessibility, which is pretty cool. Lori Osbourne  20:51 Yeah, yeah, I am. Once I discovered that passion and the I honestly never realized I had the creative side of me. I knew I had the analytical I knew I had the project management and tech, but once I realized I actually have a very strong creative side, then websites were the way to go. And it's it's really I can be working on a website for four hours straight and feel no pain, and that that alone tells me I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I love it that much, and I feel like I'm that talented at it. Michael Hingson  21:30 I think you've made a very interesting observation, and one that I relate to very well, which is working commission is one thing, but working for yourself, which, in some senses, is the same, but it's totally different, and you have to have a different mindset to make it work. Lori Osbourne  21:48 Oh, absolutely, yes. I mean, I'm I'm not selling a product for someone else. I'm selling myself, and I am the product, and I have to live by my my values and my mission and my why, which is completely different than selling services for someone else, for straight commission. Michael Hingson  22:12 I have always told my the people who I hired as sales people to analyze and and think about what they do. And one of the things that I did with every person I ever hired was I would say, tell me what you're going to sell. And literally, all but one person said, Oh, we're going to sell the product. This is the product we're selling. This is what it does. But the best sales guy I ever hired, when I asked that question, Said, the only thing I have to sell is myself and my word, and I need you to back me up when I give my word about something, Michael Hingson  22:50 great answer. It was, it was the actual, it was the answer I was looking for. And I said, well, as long as we communicate, and I know what you're going to say, and that's all about trust, I'm going to back you up. And never had an issue. And in fact, he and I worked very well together, because we figured out how my talents in sales and management could augment and accentuate what he did, so that the two of us could work together. And I think that's that's so important, but you're right. The only thing any really good salesperson has to sell is themselves, and you have to be true to your own attitudes. Yes, yes, which is so Lori Osbourne  23:33 integrity is everything. I mean, if you especially as a small business owner, I mean, and I'm in a very small community, and I this. I only lived here since 2018 and it's kind of been shocking to me how how a small community works. But if you do it right, everybody knows your name. If you do it wrong, everybody knows your name. Yeah, it's you know when, every time I get a call because the chamber has referred me again. I just smile, and I'm like, Okay, I'm doing it right, you know? And it's, to me, it's all about integrity. If you, if you say you're going to do something, do it, and if you can't do it, say you can't do it, say you can't do right, or say I'm going to figure it out. Yeah, you know, I didn't. I charged very little my first few years, and I always my first few years, I told clients, I don't know what I'm doing yet, so I'm not charging you for the time that I'm learning. I'm going to charge you for the time that I'm actually accomplishing something. Michael Hingson  24:30 One of the things I always told every again, every salesperson I ever hired is for at least the first year. You're a student. No matter what you think you know and what you know about sales, when you're working with customers, you're a student, ask them questions, really learn from them, because they want you to be successful, even if you don't think they do. And the reality is that, in general, they do want you to be successful, and the more you encourage them to teach you, the better relationship you're going to develop. Lori Osbourne  24:59 Absolutely. And 100% yes. Michael Hingson  25:02 So how long ago did you end up having the brain tumor? Lori Osbourne  25:07 I was diagnosed in August of 2015 So wow, I'm, I'm at exactly 10 years. 10 years. Yeah, I didn't, oh my gosh. September 22 will be my my first surgery dates. There you go. Wow. Right at 10 years Michael Hingson  25:23 See, I'm glad we we help you remember, Lori Osbourne  25:27 I can't, I can't believe that was, like, not even on my mind. I mean, it was actually September 17. Was the first surgery, that's right, and it's the same day as my dog's birthday. And we were just talking about my dog's birthday yesterday, but I didn't even think about the tumor. So well, it's all good Michael Hingson  25:47 a week from next Wednesday. But you know, you you obviously are doing well, well, so how did your your business in the the way you do things and what you do? How did all that change after the surgery, or had you already started down the road of branding and being a branding coach and website development and accessibility? Lori Osbourne  26:10 No, all of this came as a result of all of it. So it literally just grew with me, as I, you know, transitioned into life again, and being able to function mentally and physically, I would just start, you know, working on a little bit of, you know, a couple of websites. The first website I built was from for a realtor that we worked with. We did three different deals with him in two years. He was this great Scottish guy, great personality, and his website was horrific. And I begged him to let me do it. It was a I think we ended up doing 39 pages total, and just read redid the whole thing. He loved it. A lot of it's still in place 10 years later. But I just, I just started building, and then we moved to the area we are now outside Jacksonville, and I found a local networking group and started meeting people and getting introduced to businesses and just slowly built and learned a little bit at a time, and learned a little bit more. And then it was not actually until last year I realized that I have branding skills and talent that I haven't been promoting. I was using the skills and I was building on brand websites, but I didn't say that, and I didn't recognize it as a separate talent from website development. I kind of thought everybody did that, until I realized that that's not true. So I've been doing it, and a lot of it is just, I the natural, just natural talent for color and almost like designing houses. Like I knew I was really good at designing houses, but I didn't recognize that that translated to websites. And so for last, like, year to 18 months, I've really kind of bought into the brand strategy piece of what I offer. Michael Hingson  28:19 Well, how did you develop this concept of authority platforms, and what is it? Lori Osbourne  28:27 So the authority platform is what I'm calling the full package. It kind of started when I got really frustrated with everybody telling me or everybody's an exaggeration, but so many people saying, Oh, you don't need a website. You just need landing pages. And I would try to educate people that landing pages are not enough, but I couldn't put it in the right words, and when I started really looking at it, going, well, landing pages are great, if you have the visibility to get people to the landing page, and if you've built a relationship in a different way, if it's through speaking or through a book or through other types of promotions, then yes, the landing page can help or maybe replace the website. But where that led me was a website alone is also not enough. We need full visibility. We need to be seen in a lot of different ways to establish our authority as experts. So with the authority platform, I'm looking at the brand and understanding the brand, the website, the lead magnet, the funnels, the search engine optimization, and then helping them also have a good CRM to manage all of this, hooking them up with with good speaking coaches or podcast. Opportunities and just looking at it from a full life cycle of being visible and showing that authority online. Michael Hingson  30:10 And how's that gone over? Lori Osbourne  30:14 It's, I'm still building it honestly, the website's absolutely I'm I'm really working on building the collaboration pieces for the rest of it to truly say, Yes, I have the authority platform, the branding packages that I'm offering and the branding pieces that I'm doing are making a significant difference in the quality of the websites I'm building, because I come out of it with a custom GPT that they can use, and I can use that really establishes that baseline for the brand and the bringing in their values, bringing in their communication style, and bringing in their ideal client and how to speak to that ideal client. So the GPT is built around all of that, which is perfect when we're building the content for the website. So I would say, you know, we're 75% of the way there to having my true authority platform. But I'm still building, you know, authority building websites every day. Michael Hingson  31:20 Well, I gather that you don't tend to like to use WordPress. You use Duda as a platform builder and so on. Tell me, I'm curious why and what, and I don't have any any disagreement or or really knowledge to talk intelligently about it. But tell me why you use Duda and what, what it brings. Lori Osbourne  31:44 So my my challenges with WordPress started with my first client in Florida. They there was a nonprofit. They had no idea what they were doing, and I'm like, I I'm techie. I can go in, I can figure it out, and I could not figure out WordPress, and I got very frustrated with it going, how in the world does anybody else do this? So I kind of stayed away from it for a little while, and I was building on Squarespace for a time, and then I discovered Duda. I consider Duda to be the best of Wix and Squarespace. It's very similar. But the things I don't like about Wix, I don't like about Squarespace, Duda has resolved. It's also very customer oriented and SEO oriented and accessibility oriented. So there's a lot of advantages to the platform. The reason I don't support WordPress is I've had too many, too many people come to me with broken websites. Too many WordPress people do not educate their clients that that you have to update the plugins, and they don't. They just leave them and don't offer to do that for them, and it's it's an unnecessary addition that I don't think most people need for their website. There's plenty of things that we can do and do to that we can do exactly like WordPress without the headaches of that extra tech and plugins breaking and security breaking because the plugins are breaking, and it's it just it's too unnecessary, in my opinion. I tried to support WordPress for about a year and a half, and I found that I was not helping my Duda clients because the WordPress was always so much high maintenance. And those were the websites that were going down, and those are the websites that were having issues where my due to clients, their websites were never down, they never had issues. Michael Hingson  33:51 But don't need, but don't you, from time to time need to provide any kind of updates to Duda doesn't. Aren't there as the as the whole website evolves, doesn't, don't you need to find ways to evolve what they are and what they do Lori Osbourne  34:05 on the front end, on the front end, absolutely I mean, but from the back end, from a platform perspective, Duda handles all of that. It's self contained. Got it? I don't have to worry about that. And they're also always adding new features, which is another thing I absolutely love about them there, and I have yet to find, let me rephrase that. I've probably found a couple of things that if I could not duplicate on Duda to match WordPress, it would require code, and I don't code, but I can still achieve the goal of what my clients are looking for. There's nothing that they've said I have to have this that I can't provide. And the offset of not having the worry around the tech is has always been worth it. Michael Hingson  34:55 So the creators of Duda in the background as. They make updates and changes, they go out to everybody who uses it to create their websites automatically. Is that? Is that what happens? Lori Osbourne  35:07 Okay, yeah, it's seamless. Yeah, you don't even, you have no idea that there's even updates being done. It's completely seamless. Michael Hingson  35:15 Yeah, okay, well, I understand that. That makes a lot of sense. What's the one mistake that you find that keeps business owners from really progressing and keeping their websites and them invisible? What's the biggest mistake you see? Lori Osbourne  35:36 Messaging unclear, messaging which, which really goes back to the brand. If you don't understand your brand, you don't understand your why, and you don't know how to express how you solve problems for your ideal client, let me, let me rephrase. If you don't even know your ideal client is and you're trying to speak to them, a lot of people think they sell to everyone, and when you try to sell to everyone, you sell to no one. And if you are trying to speak to the masses from your website, you're going to lose the people you really want to reach. So it comes down to that, that niching down factor and really understanding your ideal client, so that when they hit your website, they immediately know you understand my problem and you can fix it. And it really comes down to that versus I can fix, you know, I can build a website for anybody. Well, then that makes me no different than a website developer down the street. Then it comes down to a price comparison, and then we're just bidding against each other. So you've gotta, you've gotta what makes you special, and what and and your why is a big part of that. Your values are a big part of that. And speaking the right language and that messaging. Michael Hingson  37:03 Can you tell me a story of maybe one customer that you worked with where you can demonstrate exactly what you're talking about here and why it made a difference without mentioning customer names, but the story? Lori Osbourne  37:17 Oh, yeah, um, you know, it's been a while since I did that realtor, but that realtor is still just such a great example, because you the fact that he was from Scotland doesn't necessarily seem significant, but it really does, because, you Know that Scottish accent made him endearing. He was a very professional, good looking guy. And you go out to his website, and it was, I can still see it today. It was like green and this old, funky text, and it, it represented him in no way. And I remember the first thing he told me was, you know, I've got this video where I introduced myself and I went, why in the world is that not on your homepage, like what people need to hear you speak and see you and experience you. He was phenomenal. And we did three deals with him. He was phenomenal at what he did, and that what, you know, if we had just rebuilt his website and just did the video, it would have that alone would have made a huge difference in people knowing who they were working with and how he was different. And another example I can give more recently, I work with a mentor who mentors seven figure coaches on how to work harder, make more money and and do it in less, less investment of your time. And when I took over her WordPress website for for two years, I just kept repeating and rebuilding the same crap, basically. And finally, when I decided to leave WordPress, I said, you know, I really want to start all over. And I realized in that two years, you know, I had not taken the time to really get to know her brand. And when we sat down and really learned what made her special and different, and we were able to capture that in in the website, that the difference in the experience was night and day, you know, before it was just text, and, you know, a little bit of information. She never referred anybody to her website. And now it, you know, opens with a video. She's also a professional speaker. Opens with a video of her speaking. She is very she's a. Ballroom dancer on the side, she's very elite. So we, you know, pulling in things like gold and video, I have a lot of motion on the website with gold moving because it, it, it's that brand of that dancer that, you know, that eliteness of it and it, it's subtle, and it has nothing to do with the messaging side that I just mentioned, but it's still back to the brand and the representing of who you are, who she is, what we're selling, you know, we're selling ourselves. Michael Hingson  40:33 Yeah, well, websites and website developers put all sorts of things out there and that that's not necessarily a good thing. But what are some signs that a business's online presence don't necessarily match their real life expertise? Because I I believe that people see through people who just sort of talk, and I think that that all too often, you get this reaction, oh, they're just talking that isn't what they really believe or that isn't what they really know. So what are some signs that the online presence doesn't match what they really know and what they really are? Lori Osbourne  41:15 Part of it is that that genericness, if you if you can't even say who you are serving, then you're obviously the person you're looking at is obviously not clear about their ideal client. If it's not clear who they are serving, and if it's this just generic message of not in these words, but we're the best use us. You know, there's, there's no detail about what makes them different and how they specifically solve your problem. If the website is completely outdated or generic, that may or may not allude to anything but it, it definitely shows that they don't, are not using their website to show their expertise. The other huge thing, I would say, is testimonials. Every website should have reviews. I mean, what better way to sell ourselves than to have someone else say how we're different, how we operate and why we're the why we're the best. That is huge. If it's all about them, as in the person's website you're looking at, if it's not, if I'm, if I'm getting on a website and they're not even acknowledging what's in it for me and how they're going to solve my problems, then I'm not going to have any confidence that they have any idea how to solve my problems. They haven't even they haven't even talked about my problems. They haven't even mentioned my problems. They're just telling me that they're selling me something, and this is how much it costs, and this is what it's going to do. But I but do you get me? Do you know? Do you understand me? I think all those are it's really important that we are speaking to the ideal client in their language about their problem. Michael Hingson  43:10 I have heard so many times and totally agree with and work to do this myself. Michael Hingson  43:18 The whole concept of when I'm invited to speak, it's not about me. Yeah, I'm invited to speak, but my job is to enhance, to help to make life as easy as possible for the event organizer, to help the event organizer make this, the whole conference, even better than they thought it would be. And and I have to do that because it's not about me, and it should never be about me as such, right? Lori Osbourne  43:48 It's also about your audience and your audience, yeah, so that they know you want them to want to know more. Yeah, that's also the purpose of your website to make people want to know more. Michael Hingson  44:01 Yeah, very true, and it should be that way. And if you're doing it right, you'll also provide more for them to know. Right? Lori Osbourne  44:15 Absolutely. Well, that would be something else that I would say I I always encourage people to give away as much as possible on their website. It if people know that you really want to help me solve my problems, and you're willing to give me something for free that starts a relationship. And that's really, at the end of the day, that's the point of the website. It's not to sell, it's to start a relationship. It's like the first step of dating. We're not getting married yet. We're dating, and if you're if you're giving away a piece of yourself through a video or a download or even a free course. Course, that's it. That's going to endear the audience to to want to come back for more. And even blogs, great blogs will get people coming back for more. And people always go, Well, you know, if I give everything away, I'm not going to make any money. No, you give away what? What doesn't cost you time, but is giving some knowledge so that they want more, and they know that you you get them, and they can trust, you know, like and trust so they can build that, that base for a relationship. Michael Hingson  45:32 Yeah, and it, it makes perfect sense. It is all about building trust. And everything that we do is all about building trust, and the more trust you build, the more loyalty you'll create. Lori Osbourne  45:47 Absolutely, yes, absolutely. Michael Hingson  45:49 So we've talked about website accessibility. What is website accessibility and why is it something that people really should focus on? Why is it important? Lori Osbourne  45:59 That feels weird coming from you, Mike, Michael Hingson  46:03 because I know you are an expert in this, but I preach it, but I preach it all the time, so I want to hear what somebody else has to say, and I want people who are watching and listening to this hear from somebody else other than me. Okay, that's the motivation behind it. Lori Osbourne  46:18 All right. All right. Well, website accessibility is at its core. It's making the website available and usable for everyone, including those with disabilities. So whether it's blindness or inability to use a mouse or you said it earlier, dyslexic, Michael Hingson  46:40 epilepsy, any number of things, right? Lori Osbourne  46:43 So anybody, just like accessibility for a ramp into a store, it's allowing me, from my home, as as a disabled person, to be able to function on your website. And as we know, I believe the stat is 20% of people have some kind of disability. It's also an inclusion. It is a piece of I consider a piece of your marketing, because if you are excluding 20% of the people with your website, why? Why are you doing that? It also builds strong Search Engine Optimization. Because if you look at all of the guidelines for accessibility, they're very similar to the guidelines you need to have in place for good search engine optimization. Google is looking for the exact same things. Yep. So it's it's really just making your website available to everyone Michael Hingson  47:42 well, and the reality is, well, let me ask this question, rather than me just saying it beyond legal compliance. Why should accessibility be a priority in website design? You've kind of alluded to it already. Lori Osbourne  47:56 Yeah, part of what I just said, it's including everyone. It's not excluding 20% of your market, and it's building trust, inclusivity and credibility. It's, it's, and it to me, it's showing that you care. It's, it's very bothersome to me when someone says, Well, I probably won't get sued, so I'm not going to worry about it. Okay? But why do you want to not do these basic things so that everyone can access your website? Well? Michael Hingson  48:33 And also, in reality, it does get back to if you're a website owner, that is, you're a company that has a website, and you recognize that the job of your website is to help people see why you have something they need. The fact of the matter is, do you really want to not make available to 20 or 25% of the population your website, or to put it another way, don't you want to make sure that you are making your information available to everyone? And that's what the real reason for website accessibility is truly all about. The fact of the matter is that it's good business to make your website accessible. Lori Osbourne  49:24 Absolutely, yes, absolutely. Michael Hingson  49:26 What are some high impact changes that you think that website owners can make, to make their websites or to have their websites be more accessible, maybe even just some simple things? Lori Osbourne  49:38 Oh, there are so many simple things. I mean, the easiest thing that so many people miss is adding alt text to images. I mean, it's, and it's one thing I love about Duda, by the way, it they do it with AI and do it for you, and you can edit it. It's so, so wonderful. But it's, it's a simple step. It also is. Great step to even help with SEO, because you can include some keywords there, but that that alt text tells someone that's using a tool that's blind exactly what that image is, and what is the point in putting that image on your website if it's not going to provide any value to those that can't see. I mean that, in my opinion, another thing is the contrast in colors. A lot of people don't understand that contrasting colors has a lot to do with readability, and if you are putting two colors together, I mean, think about it even from a scene person, if you're looking at it and you can't read it. It's not accessible, right? So, you know, have high contrast in the colors of text on anything over it. Don't try to put something over an image that can't be read that just just, don't do it. Skip that. I was just doing this on my website today. I was trying to put an image, and I went, you know what? That's just not going to work. I'm going back to a solid color. It doesn't it's it and it, you know, that's from a business perspective as well. Because even if you're not thinking about accessibility, if someone can't read the text or can't read the button, they're not going to click it. You're not going to read it. They're not going to buy it if they can't read it. So simple little things like that. Those would be the two biggest things I would say. And then just, you know, little additional things like making sure that your website is converting properly to mobile, if it's if it's not, if things are coming off the page, because you didn't bother to look at the mobile side, which is easy to miss on many platforms that can have a huge impact on the scene and those that need the tools or need accessibility pieces that's, you know, commonplace design and very easy thing to fix. Michael Hingson  52:11 It's been a while since I looked at this website, and I think it's not quite what it used to be, but for a while, my favorite website, absolutely. My favorite website for accessibility was the website of the National Security Agency, nsa.gov, Michael Hingson  52:31 of all the websites in the entire world. The reason I liked it is that not only did they have all text on images if you were using a screen reader and you moved your cursor over an image, you suddenly got a very detailed description of that image, like you. Michael Hingson  52:55 You moved your cursor where you used your screen reader to move over the American flag. It would say the American flag on a flagpole hanging in front of the opening to the building of the National Security Agency. Yada yada yada. I mean, it's just everything was there. It was the most amazing website. I don't know that it's that way anymore. I haven't looked at it in a little while, but I was very impressed with how much they did and relative and relevantly and appropriately so to make sure that everything on that website was totally usable. And a lot of people could say, Well, why do I have to do that? And the answer is, you have to do it for the same reason that you want to make your website accessible, if you will, for people who don't happen to have a disability. The reality is, all those things that you put on the website for people who can see them and so on, like pictures and so on, if you don't make those things accessible, you're doing a disservice to a significant amount of the population. Whereas, if you do it all, then while you can look at the picture, I can hear all about it, and that's the way it ought to Lori Osbourne  54:10 be well. And there's so much I mean to me that is an opportunity to to even go further with the folks that need the screen reader. Because, I mean, when I'm and I mentioned that dude, it does it with AI, but they, they do it too generically. When I go in, I'm doing exactly what you're talking about. I want to, I want to build the presence of the picture. This is who they're doing, who it is from the business, and this is what they're doing, and this is what you know, this offer is talking about that's an extra sales opportunity right there. For those that you know, need the alt text, why not use that? Michael Hingson  54:49 And also, I'm amazed at how many people may look at pictures and so on and look at words and not really pay attention to them very well, because they just kind of skip over it. So the more you can do to attract people's attention to the right things. Is relevant too. I'm amazed at how many people just gloss over so much. Lori Osbourne  55:09 Oh, absolutely. Well, you know, this kind of become our society, yeah, short attention span for sure. You know, I want to mention two videos. I really feel like people need videos on their website, especially of themselves, because it helps people get to know you. But you need to have that closed captioning and again, dialog. Michael Hingson  55:33 You need to have dialog so that a person who can't see the video will also know what the video shows. Lori Osbourne  55:41 Explain, explain what you mean by that a little bit more. Michael Hingson  55:44 So you go to a website, and there's a video, and you click it, and you start hearing music, and that's all you hear, even though, on the screen you see a person walking down the street, walking into somebody's store, finding a product they want and buying it. But if you don't have a way to make that information audibly accessible to people who can't see the images and who don't see the videos, then what good is it you haven't made it accessible? Yes, closed captioning works for deaf or hard of hearing people, but again, there's so much more that needs to be done. Wow. Lori Osbourne  56:25 Thank you for sharing that, Mike. You just gave me more to think about on videos. Michael Hingson  56:31 One of my favorite commercials to pick on today, and for the longest time, I had no idea at all what it was about. It starts out with music, and somebody says something like, so what do people over 60s show and bring out today? And they talk about love and they talk about something else, and suddenly the sound goes dead, and all you hear for the next 20 seconds or more is this high pitched whistle sound. Ooh, yeah. And I finally got somebody. I finally was in a room with somebody when I heard the beginning of this, and I said, What is it showing? And all it was showing, and what, apparently it is, is a promotion for people getting the RSV vaccination. Lori Osbourne  57:19 Oh, right. Oh, I do know what commercial you're talking about, yes, but text just goes on the screen. Michael Hingson  57:26 RSV, RSV, RSV. But there's nothing that says what that is at all, period, Lori Osbourne  57:33 because they're trying to make the point that you're that your life shuts down when this hits. But yeah, for someone like you, that's completely worthless. Michael Hingson  57:41 Not only does my life not shut down, my life gets very active, and I want to go off and find those commercial designers and show them what true accessibility really ought to be about. But that's another story. But yeah, Lori Osbourne  57:53 yeah, exactly, wow. I mean, I think about you every time I see that commercial, those rare times I see commercials, Michael Hingson  58:05 what's one of the what's one of the myths about branding and websites that you could erase, that you really wish you could race forever? Lori Osbourne  58:18 I probably told you to ask me that question, and now I'm stumped by how I want to answer it. I think, I think I know where I wanted to go with that. Yes, a lot of people think branding is just colors and fonts, and honestly, when I first started doing it, I thought it was just colors and fonts. And I kind of go, I went into Okay, colors and fonts, and then consistency, okay, we want to make sure we got we're consistent with our colors and fonts across everything that we do that's that's branding, that's visual branding. But real branding is Our Story. Is who we are, what we stand for and who we serve. It's the package of everything around what we're selling, back to selling ourselves and really understanding this package and making that consistent across everything. And consistency is huge, in my opinion, when it comes to branding, if you have a different header image or marketing image on every single thing you do and there's no consistency in the look, then you're not going to be memorable. You. I can't help you see this, Mike, but anyone that does go out to anything of mine, I have a very consistent image that was used to build my logo, and it's on everything that I do. I also wear very bright, colorful glasses. Everything I do is very bright and colorful, and it's memorable when people see me and they see my glasses, it can be three years later and they go. I don't remember your name, but boy, I remember those glasses. You know, it's, it's, and that's part of my branding. When people say, I love your your glasses, I go, thank you. It's part of my branding. Yeah. So it's a, it's an overall everything about you. When people describe me, they usually describe me as bright and colorful, like, that's, that's one of the first things that comes to their their mind, and then they it translates to energy, because they think bright, colorful energy. So it's, you know what branding really is, is, what do people say about you when you're not in the room? Michael Hingson  1:00:30 Yeah, that's, that's a good that's what it is. Well, if there is a business owner who is in our audience today who feels overwhelmed by their digital presence. What would you suggest is the first step they should take to change that? Lori Osbourne  1:00:47 Well, the the first thing I would love to see anyone do is sign up for a visibility review or audit with me, so that we can look at your presence and talk about it, and I can give you some very specific suggestions for how to improve your online visibility. If you're wanting to do something on your own and you're you're trying to figure out where to start, sit down and look at first, your your homepage, in your first line of every bit of your marketing and ask yourself, does it say who I serve and how I serve them, and the problems that I solve. Because every ounce of your marketing needs to say that immediately you have less than eight seconds when someone hits your website. And there's all kinds of some people say three, some people say 10s and 15. I just leave it at eight. Do eight or eight or less seconds on your website. So start there is my messaging clear? And then look at your website overall and does it represent me and the message I want people to see. We can go into a whole lot more about it being up to date and everything else, but that's where I would start, right there. Michael Hingson  1:01:58 So how do people reach out to you to get your help to deal with all of this. Lori Osbourne  1:02:02 Well, you can obviously go to my website, which is biz bolster.com, B, I, Z, B, O, L, S, T, E, r.com and I believe you will be sharing a link to that visibility audit. Just sign up for that or a free strategy session. But I encourage the visibility audit, because it literally takes about an hour of my time to check out everything about you and then share that with you. So this is an investment that I'm willing to give you to help you all understand how you show up online, and then what to do about Michael Hingson  1:02:45 it, biz, bolster.com, I hope people will do that, and they can reach out and contact you through that website. Lori Osbourne  1:02:53 Yes, click on, let's chat, and it gives you all the all the calls that you can sign up for in my calendar, and I would absolutely love to speak to anybody that has questions or wants some direction. Michael Hingson  1:03:07 Well, cool. Well, I really appreciate you being here today and spending so much time talking about all this, and I hope people will take it to heart. Wherever you are listening. Reach out, biz, bolster.com and get some insights and get some help to improve the website the web world, because only about 3% of all websites are really accessible today, which means there are a whole lot that are not, and there is no real excuse for that being the case. So reach out and Michael Hingson  1:03:41 you can get all the help that you need. I'd love to hear from you, to hear what you think about today's podcast. Please feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and wherever you're listening, please give us a five star review. We value your ratings and your reviews a lot, and I but I do want to hear from you. I want to hear what your thoughts are. Also, if you know of anyone who might make a good guest for unstoppable mindset, Lori, including you, would really appreciate you introducing us, because we're always looking for people who have great stories to tell, and today has certainly been one of my favorite podcast recordings in a long time, and that's because we really did have fun, and I think we accomplished a lot and we learned a lot. So I want to thank you, Lori, once again, for being here and for being a part of unstoppable mindset. Lori Osbourne  1:04:35 Thank you, Mike. It has definitely been a pleasure. I've enjoyed talking with you a lot. Michael Hingson  1:04:42 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Die politische Attacke auf die US-Notenbank stellt ein lange geltendes Tabu infrage. Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther diskutieren, was eine geschwächte Fed für Inflation, Kapitalmärkte und die Rolle des Dollars bedeuten würde.

What if the toughest moments in your life were preparing you to lead better, serve deeper, and live with more purpose? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I sit down with Greg Hess, known to many as Coach Hess, for a wide-ranging conversation about leadership, resilience, trust, and what it really means to help others grow. Greg shares lessons shaped by a lifetime of coaching athletes, leading business teams, surviving pancreatic cancer, and building companies rooted in service and inclusion. We talk about why humor matters, how trust is built in real life, and why great leaders stop focusing on control and start focusing on growth. Along the way, Greg reflects on teamwork, diversity, vision, and the mindset shifts that turn adversity into opportunity. I believe you will find this conversation practical, honest, and deeply encouraging. Highlights: 00:10 – Hear how Greg Hess's early life and love of sports shaped his leadership values. 04:04 – Learn why humor and laughter are essential tools for reducing stress and building connection. 11:59 – Discover how chasing the right learning curve redirected Greg's career path. 18:27 – Understand how a pancreatic cancer diagnosis reshaped Greg's purpose and priorities. 31:32 – Hear how reframing adversity builds lasting resilience. 56:22 – Learn the mindset shift leaders need to grow people and strengthen teams. About the Guest: Amazon Best-Selling Author | Award-Winning Business Coach | Voted Best Coach in Katy, TX Greg Hess—widely known as Coach Hess—is a celebrated mentor, author, and leader whose journey from athletic excellence to business mastery spans decades and continents. A graduate of the University of Calgary (1978), he captained the basketball team, earned All-Conference honors, and later competed against legends like John Stockton and Dennis Rodman. His coaching career began in the high school ranks and evolved to the collegiate level, where he led programs with distinction and managed high-profile events like Magic Johnson's basketball camps. During this time, he also earned his MBA from California Lutheran University in just 18 months. Transitioning from sports to business in the early '90s, Coach Hess embarked on a solo bicycle tour from Jasper, Alberta to Thousand Oaks, California—symbolizing a personal and professional reinvention. He went on to lead teams and divisions across multiple industries, ultimately becoming Chief Advisor for Cloud Services at Halliburton. Despite his corporate success, he was always “Coach” at heart—known for inspiring teams, shaping strategy, and unlocking human potential. In 2015, a diagnosis of pancreatic cancer became a pivotal moment. Surviving and recovering from the disease renewed his commitment to purpose. He left the corporate world to build the Coach Hess brand—dedicated to transforming lives through coaching. Today, Coach Hess is recognized as a Best Coach in Katy, TX and an Amazon Best-Selling Author, known for helping entrepreneurs, professionals, and teams achieve breakthrough results. Coach Hess is the author of: Peak Experiences Breaking the Business Code Achieving Peak Performance: The Entrepreneur's Journey He resides in Houston, Texas with his wife Karen and continues to empower clients across the globe through one-on-one coaching, strategic planning workshops, and his Empower Your Team program. Ways to connect with Greg**:** Email:  coach@coachhess.comWebsite: www.CoachHess.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/coachhess Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CoachHessSuccess Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/coachhess_official/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:21 Well, hi everyone. I am Michael Hinkson. Your host for unstoppable mindset. And today we get to enter, well, I won't say interview, because it's really more of a conversation. We get to have a conversation with Greg. Hess better known as coach Hess and we'll have to learn more about that, but he has accomplished a lot in the world over the past 70 or so years. He's a best selling author. He's a business coach. He's done a number of things. He's managed magic Johnson's basketball camps, and, my gosh, I don't know what all, but he does, and he's going to tell us. So Coach, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad that we have a chance to be with you today. Greg Hess  02:07 I'm honored to be here. Michael, thank you very much, and it's just a pleasure to be a part of your program and the unstoppable mindset. Thank you for having me. Michael Hingson  02:17 Well, we're glad you're here and looking forward to having a lot of fun. Why don't we start? I love to start with tell us about kind of the early Greg growing up and all that stuff. Greg Hess  02:30 Oh boy, yeah, I was awfully fortunate, I think, to have a couple of parents that were paying attention to me, I guess. You know, as I grew up, at the same time they were growing up my my father was a Marine returned from the Korean War, and I was born shortly after that, and he worked for Westinghouse Electric as a nuclear engineer. We lived in Southern California for a while, but I was pretty much raised in Idaho, small town called Pocatello, Idaho, and Idaho State Universities there and I, I found a love for sports. I was, you know, again, I was very fortunate to be able to be kind of coordinated and do well with baseball, football, basketball, of course, with the sports that we tend to do. But yeah, I had a lot of fun doing that and growing up, you know, under a, you know, the son of a Marine is kind of like being the son of a Marine. I guess, in a way, there was certain ways you had to function and, you know, and morals and values that you carried forward and pride and doing good work that I learned through, through my youth. And so, you know, right, being raised in Idaho was a real great experience. How so well, a very open space. I mean, in those days, you know, we see kids today and kids being brought up. I think one of the things that often is missing, that was not missing for me as a youth, is that we would get together as a group in the neighborhood, and we'd figure out the rules of the game. We'd figure out whatever we were playing, whether it was basketball or, you know, kick the can or you name it, but we would organize ourselves and have a great time doing that as a community in our neighborhood, and as kids, we learn to be leaders and kind of organize ourselves. Today, that is not the case. And so I think so many kids are built into, you know, the parents are helicopter, and all the kids to all the events and non stop going, going, going. And I think we're losing that leadership potential of just organizing and planning a little bit which I was fortunate to have that experience, and I think it had a big influence on how I grew up and built built into the leader that I believe I am today. Michael Hingson  04:52 I had a conversation with someone earlier today on another podcast episode, and one of the observations. Sense that he made is that we don't laugh at ourselves today. We don't have humor today. Everything is taken so seriously we don't laugh, and the result of that is that we become very stressed out. Greg Hess  05:15 Yeah, well, if you can't laugh at yourself, you know, but as far as I know, you've got a large background in your sales world and so on. But I found that in working with people, to to get them to be clients or to be a part of my world, is that if they can laugh with me, or I can laugh with them, or we can get them laughing, there's a high tendency of conversion and them wanting to work with you. There's just something about relationships and be able to laugh with people. I think that draw us closer in a different way, and I agree it's missing. How do we make that happen more often? Tell more jokes or what? Michael Hingson  05:51 Well, one of the things that he suggests, and he's a coach, a business coach, also he he tells people, turn off the TV, unplug your phone, go read a book. And he said, especially, go buy a joke book. Just find some ways to make yourself laugh. And he spends a lot of time talking to people about humor and laughter. And the whole idea is to deal with getting rid of stress, and if you can laugh, you're going to be a whole lot less stressful. Greg Hess  06:23 There's something that you just feel so good after a good laugh, you know, I mean, guy, I feel that way sometimes after a good cry. You know, when I'm I tend to, you know, like Bambi comes on, and I know what happens to that little fawn, or whatever, the mother and I can't, you know, but cry during the credits. What's up with that? Michael Hingson  06:45 Well, and my wife was a teacher. My late wife was a teacher for 10 years, and she read Old Yeller. And eventually it got to the point where she had to have somebody else read the part of the book where, where yeller gets killed. Oh, yeah. Remember that book? Well, I do too. I like it was a great it's a great book and a great movie. Well, you know, talk about humor, and I think it's really important that we laugh at ourselves, too. And you mentioned Westinghouse, I have a Westinghouse story, so I'll tell it. I sold a lot of products to Westinghouse, and one day I was getting ready to travel back there, the first time I went back to meet the folks in Pittsburgh, and I had also received an order, and they said this order has to be here. It's got to get it's urgent, so we did all the right things. And I even went out to the loading dock the day before I left for Westinghouse, because that was the day it was supposed to ship. And I even touched the boxes, and the shipping guy said, these are them. They're labeled. They're ready to go. So I left the next morning, went to Westinghouse, and the following day, I met the people who I had worked with over the years, and I had even told them I saw the I saw the pack, the packages on the dock, and when they didn't come in, and I was on an airplane, so I didn't Know this. They called and they spoke to somebody else at at the company, and they said the boxes aren't here, and they're supposed to be here, and and she's in, the lady said, I'll check on it. And they said, Well, Mike said he saw him on the dock, and she burst out laughing because she knew. And they said, What are you laughing at? And he said, he saw him on the dock. You know, he's blind, don't you? And so when I got there, when I got there, they had and it wasn't fun, but, well, not totally, because what happened was that the President decided to intercept the boxes and send it to somebody else who he thought was more important, more important than Westinghouse. I have a problem with that. But anyway, so they shipped out, and they got there the day I arrived, so they had arrived a day late. Well, that was okay, but of course, they lectured me, you didn't see him on the dock. I said, No, no, no, you don't understand, and this is what you have to think about. Yeah, I didn't tell you I was blind. Why should I the definition of to see in the dictionary is to perceive you don't have to use your eyes to see things. You know, that's the problem with you. Light dependent people. You got to see everything with your eyes. Well, I don't have to, and they were on the dock, and anyway, we had a lot of fun with it, but I have, but you got to have humor, and we've got to not take things so seriously. I agree with what we talked about earlier, with with this other guest. It's it really is important to to not take life so seriously that you can't have some fun. And I agree that. There are serious times, but still, you got to have fun. Greg Hess  10:02 Yeah, no kidding. Well, I've got a short story for you. Maybe it fits in with that. That one of the things I did when I I'll give a little background on this. I, I was a basketball coach and school teacher for 14 years, and had an opportunity to take over an assistant coach job at California Lutheran University. And I was able to choose whatever I wanted to in terms of doing graduate work. And so I said, you know, and I'd always been a bike rider. So I decided to ride my bike from up from Jasper, Alberta, all the way down to 1000 Oaks California on a solo bike ride, which was going to be a big event, but I wanted to think about what I really wanted to do. And, you know, I loved riding, and I thought was a good time to do that tour, so I did it. And so I'm riding down the coast, and once I got into California, there's a bunch of big redwoods there and so on, yeah, and I had, I set up my camp. You know, every night I camped out. I was totally solo. I didn't have any support, and so I put up my tent and everything. And here a guy came in, big, tall guy, a German guy, and he had ski poles sticking out of the back of his backpack, you know, he set up camp, and we're talking that evening. And I had, you know, sitting around the fire. I said, Look, his name was Axel. I said, Hey, Axel, what's up with the ski poles? And he says, Well, I was up in Alaska and, you know, and I was climbing around in glaciers or whatever, and when I started to ride here, they're pretty light. I just take them with me. And I'm thinking, that's crazy. I mean, you're thinking every ounce, every ounce matters when you're riding those long distances. Anyway, the story goes on. Next morning, I get on my bike, and I head down the road, and, you know, I go for a day, I don't see sea axle or anything, but the next morning, I'm can't stop at a place around Modesto California, something, whether a cafe, and I'm sitting in the cafe, and there's, probably, it's a place where a lot of cyclists hang out. So there was, like, 20 or 30 cycles leaning against the building, and I showed up with, you know, kind of a bit of an anomaly. I'd ridden a long time, probably 1500 miles or so at that point in 15 days, and these people were all kind of talking to me and so on. Well, then all sudden, I look up why I'm eating breakfast, and here goes the ski poles down the road. And I went, Oh my gosh, that's got to be him. So I jump up out of my chair, and I run out, and I yell, hey Axel. Hey Axel, loud as I could. And he stops and starts coming back. And then I look back at the cafe, and all these people have their faces up on the windows, kind of looking like, oh, what's going to happen? And they thought that I was saying, mistakenly, Hey, asshole, oh gosh, Michael Hingson  12:46 well, hopefully you straighten that out somehow. Immediately. Greg Hess  12:50 We had a great time and a nice breakfast and moved on. But what an experience. Yeah, sometimes we cross up on our communications. People don't quite get what's going on, they're taking things too seriously, maybe, huh? Michael Hingson  13:03 Oh, yeah, we always, sometimes hear what we want to hear. Well, so what did you get your college degree in? Greg Hess  13:10 Originally? My first Yeah, well, I'd love the question my first degree. I had a bachelor of education for years, but then I went on, and then I had my choice here of graduate work, right? And, you know, I looked at education, I thought, gosh, you know, if I answered committee on every test, I'll probably pass. I said, I need something more than this. So I in the bike ride, what I what I came to a conclusion was that the command line being DOS command line was the way we were computing. Yeah, that time in the 90s, we were moving into something we call graphical user interface, of course, now it's the way we live in so many ways. And I thought, you know, that's the curve. I'm going to chase that. And so I did an MBA in business process re engineering at Cal Lu, and knocked that off in 18 months, where I had a lot of great experiences learning, you know, being an assistant coach, and got to do some of magic Johnson's camps for him while I was there, California. Lutheran University's campus is where the Cowboys used to do their training camp, right? So they had very nice facilities, and so putting on camps like that and stuff were a good thing. And fairly close to the LA scene, of course, 1000 Oaks, right? You know that area? Michael Hingson  14:25 Oh, I do, yeah, I do. I do pretty well, yeah. So, so you, you, you're always involved in doing coaching. That was just one of the things. When you started to get involved in sports, in addition to playing them, you found that coaching was a useful thing for you to do. Absolutely. Greg Hess  14:45 I loved it. I loved the game. I love to see people grow. And yeah, it was just a thrill to be a part of it. I got published a few times, and some of the things that I did within it, but it was mostly. Right, being able to change a community. Let me share this with you. When I went to West Lake Village High School, this was a very, very wealthy area, I had, like Frankie avalon's kid in my class and stuff. And, you know, I'm riding bike every day, so these kids are driving up in Mercedes and BMW parking lot. And as I looked around the school and saw and we build a basketball and I needed to build more pride, I think in the in the community, I felt was important part of me as the head coach, they kind of think that the head coach of their basketball program, I think, is more important than the mayor. I never could figure that one out, but that was where I was Michael Hingson  15:37 spend some time in North Carolina, around Raleigh, Durham, you'll understand, Greg Hess  15:41 yeah, yeah, I get that. So Kentucky, yeah, yeah, yeah, big basketball places, yeah. So what I concluded, and I'd worked before in building, working with Special Olympics, and I thought, You know what we can do with this school, is we can have a special olympics tournament, because I got to know the people in LA County that were running, especially in Ventura County, and we brought them together, and we ran a tournament, and we had a tournament of, I don't know, maybe 24 teams in total. It was a big deal, and it was really great to get the community together, because part of my program was that I kind of expected everybody, you know, pretty strong expectation, so to say, of 20 hours of community service. If you're in our basketball program, you got to have some way, whether it's with your church or whatever, I want to recognize that you're you're out there doing something for the community. And of course, I set this Special Olympics event up so that everybody had the opportunity to do that. And what a change it made on the community. What a change it made on the school. Yeah, it was great for the Special Olympians, and then they had a blast. But it was the kids that now were part of our program, the athletes that had special skills, so to say, in their world, all of a sudden realized that the world was a different place, and it made a big difference in the community. People supported us in a different way. I was just really proud to have that as kind of a feather in my calf for being there and recognizing that and doing it was great. Michael Hingson  17:08 So cool. And now, where are you now? I'm in West Houston. That's right, you're in Houston now. So yeah, Katie, Texas area. Yeah, you've moved around well, so you, you started coaching. And how long did you? Did you do that? Greg Hess  17:30 Well, I coached for 14 years in basketball, right? And then I went into business after I graduated my MBA, and I chased the learning curve. Michael, of that learning curve I talked about a few minutes ago. You know, it was the graphical user interface and the compute and how all that was going to affect us going forward. And I continued to chase that learning curve, and had all kinds of roles and positions in the process, and they paid me a little more money as I went along. It was great. Ended up being the chief advisor for cloud services at Halliburton. Yeah, so I was an upstream guy, if you know that, I mean seismic data, and where we're storing seismic data now, the transition was going, I'm not putting that in the cloud. You kidding me? That proprietary data? Of course, today we know how we exist, but in those days, we had to, you know, build little separate silos to carry the data and deliver it accordingly for the geophysicists and people to make the decision on the drill bit. So we did really well at that in that role. Or I did really well and the team that I had just what did fantastic. You know, I was real proud I just got when I was having my 70th birthday party, I invited one of the individuals on that team, guy named Will Rivera. And will ended up going to Google after he'd worked us in there. I talked him into, or kind of convinced him so to say, or pushed him, however you do that in coaching. Coached him into getting an MBA, and then he's gone on and he tells me, You better be sitting down, coach. When he talked to him a couple days ago, I just got my PhD from George Washington University in AI technology, and I just turned inside out with happiness. It was so thrilling to hear that you know somebody you'd worked with. But while I was at Halliburton, I got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, Michael, and so that's what changed me into where I am today, as a transition and transformation. Michael Hingson  19:21 Well, how did that happen? Because I know usually people say pancreatic cancer is pretty undetectable. How did it happen that you were fortunate enough to get it diagnosed? It obviously, what might have been a somewhat early age or early early Greg Hess  19:35 time, kind of a miracle, I guess. You know. I mean, I was traveling to my niece's high school graduation in Helena, Montana. And when we were returning back to Houston, we flew through Denver, and I was suffering from some very serious a fib. Was going up 200 beats a minute, and, you know, down to 100 and it was, it was all. Over the place. And I got the plane. I wasn't feeling well, of course, and they put me on a gurney. And next thing you know, I'm on the way the hospital. And, you know, they were getting ready for an embolotic, nimbalism potential, those type of things. And, and I went to the hospital, they're testing everything out, getting, you know, saying, Well, before we put your put the shock paddles on your on your heart to get back, we better do a CAT scan. And so they CAT scan me, and came back from the CAT scan and said, Well, you know what, there's no blood clot issues, but this mass in your pancreas is a concern. And so that was the discovery of that. And 14 days from that point, I had had surgery. And you know, there was no guarantees even at that point, even though we, you know, we knew we were early that, you know, I had to get things in order. And I was told to put things in order, a little bit going into it. But miracles upon miracles, they got it all. I came away with a drainage situation where they drained my pancreas for almost six months. It was a terrible pancreatic fluids, not good stuff. It really eats up your skin, and it was bad news. But here I am, you know, and when I came away from that, a lot of people thought I was going to die because I heard pancreatic cancer, and I got messages from people that were absolutely powerful in the difference I'd made in their life by being a coach and a mentor and helping them along in their life, and I realized that the big guy upstairs saved me for a reason, and I made my put my stake in the ground, and said, You know what? I'm going to do this the best I can, and that's what I've been doing for the last eight years. Michael Hingson  21:32 So what caused the afib? Greg Hess  21:35 Yeah, not sure. Okay, so when they came, I became the clipboard kid a little bit, you know. Because what the assumption was is that as soon as I came out of surgery, and they took this tumor out of me, because I was in a fib, throughout all of surgery, AFib went away. And they're thinking now, the stress of a tumor could be based on the, you know, it's a stress disease, or so on the a fib, there could be high correlation. And so they started looking into that, and I think they still are. But you know, if you got a fib, maybe we should look for tumors somewhere else is the potential they were thinking. And, yeah, that, Michael Hingson  22:14 but removing the tumor, when you tumor was removed, the AFib went away. Yeah, wow, Greg Hess  22:22 yeah, disappeared. Wow, yeah. Michael Hingson  22:26 I had someone who came on the podcast some time ago, and he had a an interesting story. He was at a bar one night. Everything was fine, and suddenly he had this incredible pain down in his his testicles. Actually went to the hospital to discover that he had very serious prostate cancer, and had no clue that that was even in the system until the pain and and so. But even so, they got it early enough that, or was in such a place where they got it and he's fine. Greg Hess  23:07 Wow, whoa. Well, stuff they do with medicine these days, the heart and everything else. I mean, it's just fantastic. I I recently got a new hip put in, and it's been like a new lease on life for me. Michael, I am, I'm golfing like I did 10 years ago, and I'm, you know, able to ride my bike and not limp around, you know, and with just pain every time I stepped and it's just so fantastic. I'm so grateful for that technology and what they can do with that. Michael Hingson  23:36 Well, I went through heart valve replacement earlier this year, and I had had a physical 20 years ago or or more, and they, they said, as part of it, we did an EKG or an echo cardiogram. And he said, You got a slightly leaky heart valve. It may never amount to anything, but it might well. It finally did, apparently. And so we went in and they, they orthoscopically went in and they replaced the valve. So it was really cool. It took an hour, and we were all done, no open heart surgery or anything, which was great. And, yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I feel a whole lot better Greg Hess  24:13 that you do does a lot. Yeah, it's fantastic. Well, making that commitment to coaching was a big deal for me, but, you know, it, it's brought me more joy and happiness. And, you know, I just, I'll share with you in terms of the why situation for me. When I came away from that, I started thinking about, why am I, kind of, you know, a lot of what's behind what you're what you're doing, and what brings you joy? And I went back to when I was eight years old. I remember dribbling the ball down the basketball court, making a fake, threw a pass over to one of my buddies. They scored the layup, and we won the game. That moment, at that time, passing and being a part of sharing with someone else, and growing as a group, and kind of feeling a joy, is what I continued to probably for. To all my life. You know, you think about success, and it's how much money you make and how much this and whatever else we were in certain points of our life. I look back on all this and go, you know, when I had real happiness, and what mattered to me is when I was bringing joy to others by giving assist in whatever. And so I'm at home now, and it's a shame I didn't understand that at 60 until I was 62 years old, but I'm very focused, and I know that's what brings me joy, so that's what I like to do, and that's what I do. Michael Hingson  25:30 I know for me, I have the honor and the joy of being a speaker and traveling to so many places and speaking and so on. And one of the things that I tell people, and I'm sure they don't believe it until they experience it for themselves, is this isn't about me. I'm not in it for me. I am in it to help you to do what I can to make your event better. When I travel somewhere to speak, I'm a guest, and my job is to make your life as easy as possible and not complicated. And I'm I know that there are a lot of people who don't necessarily buy that, until it actually happens. And I go there and and it all goes very successfully, but people, you know today, were so cynical about so many things, it's just hard to convince people. Greg Hess  26:18 Yeah, yeah. Well, I know you're speaking over 100 times a year these days. I think that's that's a lot of work, a lot of getting around Michael Hingson  26:27 it's fun to speak, so I enjoy it. Well, how did you get involved in doing things like managing the Magic Johnson camps? Greg Hess  26:37 Well, because I was doing my MBA and I was part of the basketball program at Cal Lu, you know, working under Mike Dunlap. It just he needed a little bit of organization on how to do the business management side of it. And I got involved with that. I had a lunch with magic, and then it was, well, gee, why don't you help us coordinate all our camps or all our station work? And so I was fortunate enough to be able to do that for him. I'll just share a couple things from that that I remember really well. One of the things that magic just kind of, I don't know, patted me on the back, like I'm a superstar in a way. And you remember that from a guy like magic, I put everybody's name on the side of their shoe when they register. Have 100 kids in the camp, but everybody's name is on the right side of their shoe. And magic saw that, and he realized being a leader, that he is, that he could use his name and working, you know, their name by looking there, how powerful that was for him to be more connected in which he wants to be. That's the kind of guy he was. So that was one thing, just the idea of name. Now, obviously, as a teacher, I've always kind of done the name thing, and I know that's important, but, you know, I second thing that's really cool with the magic camp is that the idea of camaraderie and kind of tradition and bringing things together every morning we'd be sitting in the gym, magic could do a little story, you know, kind of tell everybody something that would inspire him, you know, from his past and so on. But each group had their own sound off. Michael, so if he pointed at your group, it would be like, or whatever it was. Each group had a different type of sound, and every once in a while we'd use it and point it kind of be a motivator. And I never really put two and two together until the last day of the camp on Friday. Magic says, When I point to your group, make your sound. And so he starts pointing to all the different groups. And it turns out to be Michigan State Spartans fight song to the tee. Figured that out. It was just fantastic. It gives me chills just telling you about it now, remembering how powerful was when everybody kind of came together. Now, you being a speaker, I'm sure you felt those things when you bring everybody together, and it all hits hard, but that was, that was one I remember. Michael Hingson  28:50 Well, wow, that's pretty funny, cute, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, he has always been a leader, and it's very clear that he was, and I remember the days it was Magic Johnson versus Larry Bird. Greg Hess  29:10 Yeah, yeah. Well, when he came to LA you know, they had Kareem and Byron Scott, a whole bunch of senior players, and he came in as a 19 year old rookie, and by the end of that year, he was leading that team. Yeah, he was the guy driving the ship all the time, and he loved to give those assists. He was a great guy for that. Michael Hingson  29:30 And that's really the issue, is that as a as a real leader, it wasn't all about him at all. It was about how he could enhance the team. And I've always felt that way. And I you know, when I hire people, I always told them, I figure you convince me that you can do the job that I hired you to do. I'm not going to be your boss and boss you around. What I want to do is to work with you and figure out how the talents that I have can complement the talents that you have so that we can. Enhance and make you more successful than you otherwise would be. Some people got it, and unfortunately, all too many people didn't, and they ended up not being nearly as successful. But the people who got it and who I had the joy to work with and really enhance what they did, and obviously they helped me as well, but we they were more successful, and that was what was really important. Greg Hess  30:24 Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. It's not about controlling, about growing. I mean, people grow, grow, grow, and, you know, helping them certainly. There's a reason. There's no I in team, right? And we've heard that in many times before. It's all about the group, group, pulling together. And what a lot of fun to have working in all throughout my life, in pulling teams together and seeing that happen. You know, one plus one equals three. I guess we call it synergy, that type of thinking, Michael Hingson  30:56 Yeah, well, you've faced a lot of adversity. Is, is the pancreatic cancer, maybe the answer to this, but what? What's a situation where you've really faced a lot of adversity and how it changed your life? You know you had to overcome major adversity, and you know what you learned from it? Greg Hess  31:16 Sure, I think being 100% honest and transparent. I'd say I went through a divorce in my life, and I think that was the most difficult thing I've gone through, you know, times where I'm talking to myself and being crazy and thinking stupid things and whatever. And I think the adversity that you learn and the resilience that you learn as you go, hey, I can move forward. I can go forward. And when you you see the light on the other side, and you start to create what's what's new and different for you, and be able to kind of leave the pain, but keep the happiness that connects from behind and go forward. I think that was a big part of that. But having resilience and transforming from whatever the event might be, obviously, pancreatic cancer, I talked about a transformation there. Anytime we kind of change things that I think the unstoppable mindset is really, you know what's within this program is about understanding that opportunities come from challenges. When we've got problems, we can turn them into opportunities. And so the adversity and the resilience that I think I'd like to try to learn and build and be a part of and helping people is taking what you see as a problem and changing your mindset into making it an opportunity. Michael Hingson  32:40 Yeah, yeah. Well, you've obviously had things that guided you. You had a good sense of vision and so on. And I talked a lot about, don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. But how's a good sense of vision guided you when necessarily the path wasn't totally obvious to you, have you had situations like that? Absolutely. Greg Hess  33:03 And I think the whole whole I write about it in my book in peak experiences, about having vision in terms of your future self, your future, think where you're going, visualize how that's going to happen. Certainly, as a basketball player, I would play the whole game before the game ever happened by visualizing it and getting it in my mind as to how it was going to happen. I do that with golf today. I'll look at every hole and I'll visualize what that vision is that I want to have in terms of getting it done. Now, when I have a vision where things kind of don't match up and I have to change that on the fly. Well, that's okay, you know that that's just part of life. And I think having resilience, because things don't always go your way, that's for sure. But the mindset you have around what happens when they don't go your way, you know, is big. My as a coach, as a business coach today, every one of my clients write a three, three month or 90 day plan every quarter that gets down to what their personal goal is, their must have goal. And then another kind of which is all about getting vision in place to start putting in actual tactical strategies to make all of that happen for the 90 day period. And that's a big part, I think, of kind of establishing the vision in you got to look in front of us what's going to happen, and we can control it if we have a good feel of it, you know, for ourselves, and get the lives and fulfillment we want out of life. I think, yeah, Michael Hingson  34:39 you've clearly been pretty resilient in a lot of ways, and you continue to exhibit it. What kinds of practices and processes have you developed that help you keep resilience personally and professionally? Greg Hess  34:54 I think one of them for sure is that I've I've lived a life where I've spent you. I'm going to say five out of seven days where I will do a serious type of workout. And right now bike riding. I'll ride several days a week, and, you know, get in 10 to 15 miles, not a lot, but, I mean, I've done but keeping the physical, physical being in the time, just to come down the time to think about what you're doing, and at the same time, for me, it's having a physical activity while I'm doing that, but it's a wind down time. I also do meditation. Every morning. I spend 15 minutes more or less doing affirmations associated to meditation, and that's really helped me get focused in my day. Basically, I look at my calendar and I have a little talk with every one of the things that are on my calendar about how I'm setting my day, you know? And that's my affirmation time. But yeah, those time things, I think report having habits that keep you resilient, and I think physical health has been important for me, and it's really helped me in a lot of ways at the same time, bringing my mind to, I think, accepting, in a transition of learning a little bit accepting the platinum rule, rather than the golden rule, I got to do unto others as they'd like to be treated by me. I don't need to treat people like they'd like to like I'd like to be treated. I need to treat them how they'd like to be treated by me, because they're not me, and I've had to learn that over time, better and better as I've got older. And how important that is? Michael Hingson  36:33 Well, yeah, undoubtedly, undoubtedly so. And I think that we, we don't put enough effort into thinking about, how does the other person really want to be treated? We again, it gets back, maybe in to a degree, in to our discussion about humor earlier we are we're so much into what is it all about for me, and we don't look at the other person, and the excuse is, well, they're not looking out for me. Why should I look out for them? Greg Hess  37:07 You know, one of the biggest breakthroughs I've had is working with a couple that own a business and Insurance Agency, and the they were doing okay when I started, when they've done much better. And you know, it's besides the story. The big part of the story is how they adjusted and adapted, and that she I think you're probably familiar with disc and I think most people that will be listening on the podcast are but D is a high D, dominant kind of person that likes to win and probably doesn't have a lot of time for the other people's feelings. Let's just put it that way to somebody that's a very high seed is very interested in the technology and everything else. And the two of them were having some challenges, you know, and and once we got the understanding of each other through looking at their disc profiles, all of a sudden things cleared up, a whole, whole bunch. And since then, they've just been a pinnacle of growth between the two of them. And it was just as simple as getting an understanding of going, you know, I got to look at it through your eyes, rather than my eyes. When it comes to being a leader in this company and how sure I'm still going to be demanding, still I'm going to be the I'm not going to apologize about it, but what I got him to do is carry a Q tip in his pocket, and so every time she got on him, kind of in the Bossy way. He just took out, pulled out the Q tip, and I said, that stands for quit taking it personal. Don't you love it? Michael Hingson  38:29 Yeah, well, and it's so important that we learn to communicate better. And I'm sure that had a lot to do with what happened with them. They started communicating better, yeah, yeah. Do you ever watch Do you ever watch a TV show on the Food Network channel? I haven't watched it for a while. Restaurant impossible. Greg Hess  38:51 Oh, restaurant impossible. Yeah, I think is that guy? Michael Hingson  38:55 No, that's not guy. It's my Michael. I'm blanking out Greg Hess  39:00 whatever. He goes in and fixes up a restaurant. Michael Hingson  39:03 He fixes up restaurants, yeah, and there was one show where that exact sort of thing was going on that people were not communicating, and some of the people relatives were about to leave, and so on. And he got them to really talk and be honest with each other, and it just cleared the whole thing up. Greg Hess  39:25 Yeah, yeah. It's amazing how that works. Michael Hingson  39:28 He's He's just so good at at analyzing situations like that. And I think that's one of the things that mostly we don't learn to do individually, much less collectively, is we don't work at being very introspective. So we don't analyze what we do and why what we do works or doesn't work, or how we could improve it. We don't take the time every day to do that, which is so unfortunate. Greg Hess  39:54 Oh boy, yeah, that continuous improvement Kaizen, all of that type of world. Critical to getting better, you know. And again, that comes back, I think, a little bit to mindset and saying, Hey, I'm gonna but also systems. I mean, I've always got systems in place that go, let's go back and look at that, and how, what can we do better? And if you keep doing it every time, you know, in a certain period, things get a lot better, and you have very fine tuning, and that's how you get distinguished businesses. I think, yeah, Michael Hingson  40:27 yeah, it's all about it's all about working together. So go ahead, I Greg Hess  40:31 was working with a guy at Disney, or guy had been at Disney, and he was talking about how they do touch point analysis for every every place that a customer could possibly touch anything in whatever happens in their environment, and how they analyze that on a, I think it was a monthly, or even at least a quarterly basis, where they go through the whole park and do an analysis on that. How can we make it better? Michael Hingson  40:55 Yeah, and I'm sure a lot of that goes back to Walt having a great influence. I wonder if they're doing as much of that as they used to. Greg Hess  41:04 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, yeah, because it's getting pretty big and times change. Hopefully, culture Go ahead. I was gonna say a cultural perspective. I just thought of something I'd share with you that when I went into West Lake Village High School as a basketball coach, I walked into the gym and there was a lot of very tall I mean, it's a very competitive team and a competitive school, 611, six, nine kids, you know, that are only 16 years old. And I looked around and I realized that I'm kid from Canada here, you know, I gotta figure out how to make this all work in a quick, fast, in a hurry way. And I thought these kids were a little more interested in looking good than rather being good. And I think I'd been around enough basketball to see that and know that. And so I just developed a whole philosophy called psycho D right on the spot almost, which meant that we were going to build a culture around trying to hold teams under a common goal of 50 points, common goal, goal for successful teams. And so we had this. I started to lay that out as this is the way this program is going to work, guys and son of a gun, if we didn't send five of those guys onto division one full rides. And I don't think they would have got that if they you know, every college coach loves a kid who can play defense. Yeah, that's what we prided ourselves in. And, of course, the band got into it, the cheerleaders got into it, the whole thing. Of course, they bring in that special olympics thing, and that's part of that whole culture. Guess what? I mean, we exploded for the really powerful culture of of a good thing going on. I think you got to find that rallying point for all companies and groups that you work with. Don't you to kind of have that strong culture? Obviously, you have a very huge culture around your your world. Michael Hingson  42:54 Well, try and it's all about again, enhancing other people, and I want to do what I can do, but it's all about enhancing and helping others as well. Yeah. How about trust? I mean, that's very important in leadership. I'm sure you would, you would agree with that, whereas trust been a major part of things that you do, and what's an example of a place where trust really made all the difference in leadership and in endeavor that you were involved with? Greg Hess  43:29 Yeah, so often, clients that I've had probably don't have the they don't have the same knowledge and background in certain areas of you know, we all have to help each other and growing and having them to trust in terms of knowing their numbers and sharing with me what their previous six month P and L, or year to date, P and L, that kind of thing, so that I can take that profit and loss and build out a pro forma and build where we're going with the business. There's an element of trust that you have to have to give somebody all your numbers like that, and I'm asking for it on my first coaching session. And so how do I get that trust that quickly? I'm not sure exactly. It seems to work well for me. One of the things that I focus on in understanding people when I first meet and start to work with them is that by asking a simple question, I'll ask them something like, how was your weekend? And by their response, I can get a good bit of an idea whether I need to get to get them to trust me before they like me, or whether they get to get them to like me before they trust me. And if the response is, had a great weekend without any social response at all connected to it, then I know that I've got to get those people to trust me, and so I've got to present myself in a way that's very much under trust, where another the response might be. Had a great weekend, went out golfing with my buddies. Soon as I hear with the now I know I need to get that person to like. Me before they trust me. And so that's a skill set that I've developed, I think, and just recognizing who I'm trying and building trust. But it's critical. And once, once you trust somebody, and you'd show and they, you don't give them reason to not trust you, you know, you show up on time, you do all the right things. It gets pretty strong. Yeah, it doesn't take but, you know, five or six positive, that's what the guy said he's going to do. He's done it, and he's on top of it to start trusting people. I think, Well, Michael Hingson  45:31 I think that that trust is all around us. And, you know, we we keep hearing about people don't trust each other, and there's no trust anymore in the world. I think there's a lot of trust in the world. The issue isn't really a lack of trust totally. It's more we're not open to trust because we think everyone is out to get us. And unfortunately, there are all too many ways and times that that's been proven that people haven't earned our trust, and maybe we trusted someone, and we got burned for it, and so we we shut down, which we shouldn't do, but, but the reality is that trust is all around us. I mean, we trust that the internet is going to keep this conversation going for a while. I shouldn't say that, because now we're going to disappear, right? But, but, trust is really all around us, and one of the things that I tell people regularly is, look, I want to trust and I want people to trust me. If I find that I am giving my trust to someone and they don't reciprocate or they take advantage of it. That tells me something, and I won't deal with that person anymore, but I'm not going to give up on the idea of trust, because trust is so important, and I think most people really want to trust and I think that they do want to have trusting relationships. Greg Hess  47:02 Yeah, totally agree with you on that, you know. And when it's one of those things, when you know you have it, you don't have to talk about it, you just have it, you know, it's there, right? Michael Hingson  47:16 Yeah, and then, well, it's, it's like, I talk about, well, in the book that I wrote last year, live, it was published last year, live like a guide dog. Guide Dogs do love unconditionally, I'm absolutely certain about that, but they don't trust unconditionally. But the difference between them and us, unless there's something that is just completely traumatized them, which isn't usually the case, they're open to trust, and they want to trust and they want to develop trusting relationships. They want us to be the pack leaders. They know we're supposed to be able to do that. They want to know what we expect of them. But they're open to trust, and even so, when I'm working with like a new guide dog. I think it takes close to a year to really develop a full, complete, two way trusting relationship, so that we really essentially know what each other's thinking. But when you get that relationship, it's second to none. Greg Hess  48:15 Yeah, isn't that interesting? How long were you with Rosella? Before the event, Michael Hingson  48:21 Rosella and I were together. Let's see we Oh, what was it? It was February or May. No, it was the November of 1999 so it was good two year. Good two years. Yeah, wow, yeah. So, you know, we we knew each other. And you know, even so, I know that in that in any kind of a stressful situation, and even not in a stressful situation, my job is to make sure that I'm transmitting competence and trust to Roselle, or now to Alamo. And the idea is that on September 11, I all the way down the stairs just continue to praise her, what a good job. You're doing a great job. And it was important, because I needed her to know first of all that I was okay, because she had to sense all of the concern that people had. None of us knew what was going on on the stairwell, but we knew that something was going on, and we figured out an airplane hit the building because we smelled jet fuel, but we didn't know the details, but clearly something was going on, so I needed to send her the message, I'm okay, and I'm with you and trust you and all that. And the result of that was that she continued to be okay, and if suddenly she were to suddenly behave in a manner that I didn't expect, then that would tell me that there's something different and something unusual that's going on that I have to look for. But we didn't have to have that, fortunately, which was great. It's. About trust, and it's all about developing a two way trust, yeah, Greg Hess  50:05 yeah, amazing. Well, and it's funny how, when you say trust, when in a situation where trust is lost, it's not so easily repaired, no, Michael Hingson  50:16 you know, yeah. And if it's really lost, it's because somebody's done something to betray the trust, unless somebody misinterprets, in which case you've got to communicate and get that, that that confidence level back, which can be done too. Greg Hess  50:33 Yeah, yeah. Important to be tuned and tuned into that, Michael Hingson  50:40 but it is important to really work to develop trust. And as I said, I think most people want to, but they're more often than not, they're just gun shy, so you have to really work at developing the trust. But if you can do it, what a relationship you get with people. Greg Hess  50:57 Circumstances, you know, and situational analysis change the level of trust, of course, in so many ways. And some people are trusting people where they shouldn't, you know, and in the right in the wrong environment. Sometimes you know, you have to be aware. I think people are fearful of that. I mean, just even in our electronic world, the scammers and those people you gotta, we get, we get one or two of those, you know, messages every day, probably people trying to get you to open a bank account or something on them. Better be aware. Don't want to be losing all your money. Yeah, but it's not to have trust, right? Michael Hingson  51:41 Yeah, it's one we got to work on well, so you you support the whole concept of diversity, and how has embracing diversity of people, perspectives or ideas unlocked new opportunities for you and the people you work with. Greg Hess  52:00 I got a great story for you on that. Michael A when I got into this coaching business, one of the one of the clients I was lucky enough to secure was a group called shredding on the go. And so the mother was kind of running the show, but her son was the president, and kind of the one that was in charge of the company. Now he's wheelchair, 100% wheelchair bound, nonverbal, very, very, I don't remember the exact name, but I mean very, very restrictive. And so what she figured out in time was his young is that he could actually take paper and like putting paper into a shredder. So she grew the idea of saying, Gosh, something James can do, we can build a business. This, this kid's, you know, gonna, I'm gonna get behind this and start to develop it. And so she did, and we created, she had created a company. She only had two employees when she hired me, but we went out and recruited and ended up growing it up to about 20 employees, and we had all the shredders set up so that the paper and all of our delivery and so on. And we promoted that company and supporting these people and making real money for real jobs that you know they were doing. So it was all, you know, basically all disabled autism to, you name it. And it was just a great experience. And so we took that show to the road. And so when we had Earth Day, I'd go out and we'd have a big event, and then everybody would come in and contribute to that and be a part of growing that company. Eventually, we got to the company to the point where the mother was worried about the the owner, the son's health was getting, you know, his life expectancy is beyond it, and she didn't want to have this company and still be running and when he wasn't there. And so we worked out a way to sell the company to a shredding company, of course, and they loved the the client. We had over 50 clients going, and they ended up making quite a bit of money that they put back into helping people with disabilities. So it was just a great cycle and a great opportunity to do that and give people an opportunity. I got to be their business coach, and what a lot of fun I included myself in the shredding I was involved with all parts of the company, and at one point, what a lot of fun I had with everybody. Michael Hingson  54:22 Yeah, yeah. There's something to be said for really learning what other people do in a company and learning the jobs. I think that's important. It's not that you're going to do it every day, but you need to develop that level of understanding. Greg Hess  54:37 Michael, you'll love this. Our best Shredder was blind. She did more than anybody, and she was blind. People go, you can't be doing that when you're What do you mean? She had it figured out. Yeah. Michael Hingson  54:48 What's the deal? Yeah, no, Shredder doesn't overheat, you know? But that's another step, yeah. So what's an example you've worked with a lot of teams. And so on. What's an example where a collaborative effort really created something and caused something to be able to be done that otherwise wouldn't have happened? Right? Greg Hess  55:10 Well, I referred back real quickly to the psycho D thing, where he had a common goal, common pride in taking it, and we just were on it. And I think that was a really, really transformational kind of thing to make everybody better as one whole area in a team. Now that's probably the first thing that comes to mind. I think the the idea of bringing the team together, you know, and really getting them to all work as one is that everybody has to understand everybody else's action plan. What's their plan? What is their vision? Where are they going in terms of, you know, playing basketball, to whether you're on the sales team, whether you're on the marketing team, or whatever part of the business you're in, do you have an action plan? And you can openly show that, and you feel like you're 100% participating in the group's common goal. I can't over emphasize an element of a common goal. I think, in team building, whatever that may be, you know, typically, the companies I'm working with now, we try to change it up every quarter, and we shoot quarter by quarter to a common goal that we all and then we build our plans to reach and achieve that for each individual within a company. And it works really well in building teams. And it's a lot of fun when everything comes together. You know, example of how a team, once you built that, and the team's there, and then you run into adversity, we have a team of five people that are selling insurance, basically, and one of them lost her father unexpectedly and very hard, Hispanic, Hispanic background, and just devastating to her and to her mother and everything. Well, we've got a machine going in terms of work. And so what happened is everybody else picked up her piece, and all did the parts and got behind her and supported her. And it took her about five months to go through her morning phase, and she's come back, and now she's going to be our top employee. Now going forward, it's just amazing how everybody rallied around her. We were worried about her. She comes back, and she's stronger than ever, and she'd had her time, and it was just nice to see the team of a group of company kind of treat somebody like family. That's a good thing. Michael Hingson  57:30 That's cool. What a great story. What mindset shift Do you think entrepreneurs and leaders really need to undergo in order to be successful. Greg Hess  57:45 Boy, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about the idea of looking through it, through other people's eyes, right? And then as a leader, you know, the same thing you were mentioning earlier, Michael, was that you draw the strength out of the people, rather than demand kind of what you want them to do in order to get things done, it's build them up as people. And I think that that's a critical piece in in growing people and getting that whole element of leadership in place. Yeah, what was the other part of that question? Again, let me give you another piece of that, because I think of some Go ahead. Yeah. I was just remember, what did you ask me again, I want to make sure I'm right Michael Hingson  58:28 from your books and coaching work. The question was, what kind of mindset shift Do you think that entrepreneurs and leaders have to adopt? Greg Hess  58:39 Yeah, yeah. So that's one part of the mindset, but the big one is recognizing that it's a growth world that we need to look at how we can grow our company, how we can grow individuals, how we can all get better and continuous improvement. And I think that is an example of taking a problem and recognizing as an opportunity. And that's part of the mindset right there that you got to have. I got a big problem here. How are we going to make that so that we're we're way better from that problem each time it happens and keep improving? Michael Hingson  59:10 Yeah, that makes sense. Well, if you could leave everyone who's listening and watching this today with one key principle that would help them live and lead with an unstoppable mindset. What would that be? What, what? What advice do you have? Greg Hess  59:30 Yeah, my advice is make sure you understand your passion and what, what your purpose is, and have a strong, strong desire to make that happen. Otherwise, it's not really a purpose, is it? And then be true to yourself. Be true to yourself in terms of what you spend your time on, what you do, in terms of reaching that purpose. It's to be the best grandparent there you can be in the world. Go get it done, but make sure you're spending time to grandkids. Don't just talk it so talks cheap and action matters. You know, and I think, figure out where you're spending your time and make sure that fits in with what you really want to gather happen in your life and fulfilling it. Michael Hingson  1:00:09 Well, I like that talks cheap and action matters. That's it. Yeah, I tell that. I tell that to my cat all the time when she doesn't care. But cats are like that? Well, we all know that dogs have Masters, but cats have staff, so she's a great kitty. That's good. It's a wonderful kitty. And I'm glad that she's in my life, and we get to visit with her every day too. So it works out well, and she and the Dog get along. So, you know, you can't do better than that. That's a good thing. Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely super. I we've I think we've talked a lot, and I've learned a lot, and I hope other people have too, and I think you've had a lot of good insights. If people would like to reach out to you and maybe use your services as a coach or whatever, how do they do that? Greg Hess  1:01:00 Well, my website is coach, hess.com Michael Hingson  1:01:06 H, E, S, S, Greg Hess  1:01:07 yeah, C, O, A, C, H, H, E, S, s.com, that's my website. You can get a hold of me at coach. At coach, hess.com that's my email. Love to hear from you, and certainly I'm all over LinkedIn. My YouTube channel is desk of coach s. Got a bunch of YouTubes up there and on and on. You know, all through the social media, you can look me up and find me under Coach. Coach S, is my brand Cool? Michael Hingson  1:01:38 Well, that it's a well worth it brand for people to go interact with, and I hope people will so Oh, I appreciate that. Well, I want to thank you all for listening and watching us today. Reach out to coach Hess, I'd love to hear from you. Love to hear what you think of today's episode. So please give us an email at Michael H i, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, wherever you're monitoring our podcast, please give us a five star rating. We value it. And if you know anyone who might be a good guest to come on and tell their story, please introduce us. We're always looking for more people to come on and and chat with us. Coach you as well. If you know anyone, I'm sure you must love to to get more people. Now, if you could get Magic Johnson, that'd be super but that's probably a little tougher, but it'd be, it'd be fun. Any, anyone t

Shownotes Folge mit Michael Höller (Ein Stadion geht die Legende bleibt) Manche Orte verschwinden von der Landkarte aber nicht aus dem Herzen. Das ist der Gedanke, der Michael Höller auf eine ungewöhnliche Reise geschickt hat. Nicht zu den glitzernden Arenen der Champions League, sondern zu den verlassenen Stadien Europas. Zu den Grounds, bei denen das Gras schon die Stehränge zurückerobert, bei denen jede verblasste Bank, jede zerbrochene Anzeigetafel noch Geschichten atmet. Er hat sie besucht, von Spitzbergen bis Malta, von den Azoren bis in den Kaukasus. Er hat dort nach den Spuren von Leidenschaft, Erinnerungen und Fußball-Seele gesucht ...Dieser Podcast wird vermarktet von der Podcastbude.www.podcastbu.de - Full-Service-Podcast-Agentur - Konzeption, Produktion, Vermarktung, Distribution und Hosting.Du möchtest deinen Podcast auch kostenlos hosten und damit Geld verdienen?Dann schaue auf www.kostenlos-hosten.de und informiere dich.Dort erhältst du alle Informationen zu unseren kostenlosen Podcast-Hosting-Angeboten. kostenlos-hosten.de ist ein Produkt der Podcastbude.

What happens when curiosity, resilience, and storytelling collide over a lifetime of building something meaningful? In this episode, I welcome Nick Francis, founder and CEO of Casual Films, for a thoughtful conversation about leadership, presence, and what it takes to keep going when the work gets heavy. Nick's journey began with a stint at BBC News and a bold 9,000-mile rally from London to Mongolia in a Mini Cooper, a spirit of adventure that still fuels how he approaches business and life today. We talk about how that early experience shaped Casual into a global branded storytelling company with studios across five continents, and what it really means to lead a creative organization at scale. Nick shares insights from growing the company internationally, expanding into Southeast Asia, and staying grounded while producing hundreds of projects each year. Along the way, we explore why emotionally resonant storytelling matters, how trust and preparation beat panic, and why presence with family, health, and purpose keeps leaders steady in uncertain times. This conversation is about building an Unstoppable life by focusing on what matters most, using creativity to connect people, and choosing clarity and resilience in a world full of noise. Highlights: 00:01:30 – Learn how early challenges shape resilience and long-term drive. 00:06:20 – Discover why focusing on your role creates calm under pressure. 00:10:50 – Learn how to protect attention in a nonstop world. 00:18:25 – Understand what global growth teaches about leadership. 00:26:00 – Learn why leading with trust changes relationships. 00:45:55 – Discover how movement and presence restore clarity. About the Guest: Nick Francis is the founder and CEO of Casual, a global production group that blends human storytelling, business know-how, and creativity turbo-charged by AI. Named the UK's number one brand video production company for five years, Casual delivers nearly 1,000 projects annually for world-class brands like Adobe, Amazon, BMW, Hilton, HSBC, and P&G. The adventurous spirit behind its first production – a 9,000-mile journey from London to Mongolia in an old Mini – continues to drive Casual's growth across offices in London, New York, LA, San Francisco, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Sydney, Singapore, Hong Kong and Greater China. Nick previously worked for BBC News and is widely recognised for his expertise in video storytelling, brand building, and corporate communications. He is the founding director of the Casual Films Academy, a charity helping young filmmakers develop skills by producing films for charitable organisations. He is also the author of ‘The New Fire: Harness the Power of Video for Your Business' and a passionate advocate for emotionally resonant, behaviorally grounded storytelling. Nick lives in San Francisco, California, with his family. Ways to connect with Nick**:** Website: https://www.casualfilms.com/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@casual_global  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/casualglobal/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CasualFilms/  Nick's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickfrancisfilm/  Casual's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/casual-films-international/  Beyond Casual - LinkedIn Newsletter: https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=6924458968031395840 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:21 Well, hello everyone. I am your host, Mike hingson, that's kind of funny. We'll talk about that in a second, but this is unstoppable mindset. And our guest today is Nick Francis, and what we're going to talk about is the fact that people used to always ask me, well, they would call me Mr. Kingston, and it took me, as I just told Nick a master's degree in physics in 10 years to realize that if I said Mike hingson, that's why they said Mr. Kingston. So was either say Mike hingson or Michael hingson. Well, Michael hingson is a lot easier to say than Mike hingson, but I don't really care Mike or Michael, as long as it's not late for dinner. Whatever works. Yeah. Well, Nick, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're Nick Francis  02:04 here. Thanks, Mike. It's great to be here. Michael Hingson  02:08 So Nick is a marketing kind of guy. He's got a company called casual that we'll hear about. Originally from England, I believe, and now lives in San Francisco. We were talking about the weather in San Francisco, as opposed to down here in Victorville. A little bit earlier. We're going to have a heat wave today and and he doesn't have that up there, but you know, well, things, things change over time. But anyway, we're glad you're here. And thanks, Mike. Really looking forward to it. Tell us about the early Nick growing up and all that sort of stuff, just to get us started. Nick Francis  02:43 That's a good question. I grew up in London, in in Richmond, which is southwest London. It's a at the time, it wasn't anything like as kind of, it's become quite kind of shishi, I think back in the day, because it's on the west of London. The pollution from the city used to flow east and so, like all the kind of well to do people, in fact, there used to be a, there used to be a palace in Richmond. It's where Queen Elizabeth died, the first Queen Elizabeth, that is. And, yeah, you know, I grew up it was, you know, there's a lot of rugby played around there. I played rugby for my local rugby club from a very young age, and we went sailing on the south coast. It was, it was great, really. And then, you know, unfortunately, when I was 10 years old, my my dad died. He had had a very powerful job at the BBC, and then he ran the British Council, which is the overseas wing of the Arts Council, so promoting, I guess, British soft power around the world, going and opening art galleries and going to ballet in Moscow and all sorts. So he had an incredible life and worked incredibly hard. And you know, that has brought me all sorts of privileges, I think, when I was a kid. But, you know, unfortunately, age 10 that all ended. And you know, losing a parent at that age is such a sort of fundamental, kind of shaking of your foundations. You know, you when you're a kid, you feel like a, you're going to live forever, and B, the things that are happening around you are going to last forever. And so, you know, you know, my mom was amazing, of course, and, you know, and in time, I got a new stepdad, and all the rest of it. But you know, that kind of shaped a lot of my a lot of my youth, really. And, yeah, I mean, Grief is a funny thing, and it's funny the way it manifests itself as you grow. But yeah. So I grew up there. I went to school in the Midlands, near where my stepdad lived, and then University of Newcastle, which is up in the north of England, where it rains a lot. It's where it's where Newcastle Football Club is based. And you know is that is absolutely at the center of the city. So. So the city really comes alive there. And it was during that time that I discovered photography, and I wanted to be a war photographer, because I believe that was where life was lived at the kind of the real cutting edge. You know, you see the you see humanity in its in its most visceral and vivid color in terrible situations. And I kind of that seemed like an interesting thing to go to go and do. Michael Hingson  05:27 Well, what? So what did you major in in college in Newcastle? So I did Nick Francis  05:31 history and politics, and then I went did a course in television journalism, and ended up working at BBC News as a initially running on the floor. So I used to deliver the papers that you know, when you see people shuffling or not, they do it anymore, actually, because everything, everything's digital now digital, yeah, but when they were worried about the the auto cues going down, they we always had to make sure that they had the up to date script. And so I would be printing in, obviously, the, you know, because it's a three hour news show, the scripts constantly evolving, and so, you know, I was making sure they had the most up to date version in their hands. And it's, I don't know if you have spent any time around live TV Mike, but it's an incredibly humbling experience, like the power of it. You know, there's sort of two or 3 million people watching these two people who are sitting five feet in front of me, and the, you know, the sort of slightly kind of, there was an element of me that just wanted to jump in front of them and kind of go, ah. And, you know, never, ever work in live TV, ever again. But you know, anyway, I did that and ended up working as a producer, writing and developing, developing packets that would go out on the show, producing interviews and things. And, you know, I absolutely loved it. It was, it was a great time. But then I left to go and set up my company. Michael Hingson  06:56 I am amazed, even today, with with watching people on the news, and I've and I've been in a number of studios during live broadcasts and so on. But I'm amazed at how well, mostly, at least, I've been fortunate. Mostly, the people are able to read because they do have to read everything. It isn't like you're doing a lot of bad living in a studio. Obviously, if you are out with a story, out in the field, if you will, there, there may be more where you don't have a printed script to go by, but I'm amazed at the people in the studio, how much they are able to do by by reading it all completely. Nick Francis  07:37 It's, I mean, the whole experience is kind of, it's awe inspiring, really. And you know, when you first go into a Live, a live broadcast studio, and you see the complexity, and you know, they've got feeds coming in from all over the world, and you know, there's upwards of 100 people all working together to make it happen. And I remember talking to one of the directors at the time, and I was like, How on earth does this work? And he said, You know, it's simple. You everyone has a very specific job, and you know that as long as you do your bit of the job when it comes in front of you, then the show will go out. He said, where it falls over is when people start worrying about whether other people are going to are going to deliver on time or, you know, and so if you start worrying about what other people are doing, rather than just focusing on the thing you have to do, that's where it potentially falls over, Michael Hingson  08:29 which is a great object lesson anyway, to worry about and control and don't worry about the rest Nick Francis  08:36 for sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, it's almost a lesson for life. I mean, sorry, it is a lesson for life, and Michael Hingson  08:43 it's something that I talk a lot about in dealing with the World Trade Center and so on, and because it was a message I received, but I've been really preaching that for a long time. Don't worry about what you can't control, because all you're going to do is create fear and drive yourself Nick Francis  08:58 crazy, completely, completely. You know. You know what is it? Give me the, give me this. Give me the strength to change the things I can. Give me the give me the ability to let the things that I can't change slide but and the wisdom to know the difference. I'm absolutely mangling that, that saying, but, yeah, it's, it's true, you know. And I think, you know, it's so easy for us to in this kind of modern world where everything's so media, and we're constantly served up things that, you know, shock us, sadness, enrage us, you know, just to be able to step back and say, actually, you know what? These are things I can't really change. I'd have to just let them wash over me. Yeah, and just focus on the things that you really can change. Michael Hingson  09:46 It's okay to be aware of things, but you've got to separate the things you can control from the things that you can and we, unfortunately aren't taught that. Our parents don't teach us that because they were never taught it, and it's something. That, just as you say, slides by, and it's so unfortunate, because it helps to create such a level of fear about so many things in our in our psyche and in our world that we really shouldn't have to do Nick Francis  10:13 completely well. I think, you know, obviously, but you know, we've, we've spent hundreds, if not millions of years evolving to become humans, and then, you know, actually being aware of things beyond our own village has only been an evolution of the last, you know what, five, 600 years, yeah. And so we are just absolutely, fundamentally not able to cope with a world of such incredible stimulus that we live in now. Michael Hingson  10:43 Yeah, and it's only getting worse with all the social media, with all the different things that are happening and of course, and we're only working to develop more and more things to inundate us with more and more kinds of inputs. It's really unfortunate we just don't learn to separate ourselves very easily from all of that. Nick Francis  11:04 Yeah, well, you know, it's so interesting when you look at the development of VR headsets, and, you know, are we going to have, like, lenses in our eyes that kind of enable us to see computer screens while we're just walking down the road, you know? And you look at that and you think, well, actually, just a cell phone. I mean, cell phones are going to be gone fairly soon. I would imagine, you know, as a format, it's not something that's going to abide but the idea that we're going to create technology that's going to be more, that's going to take us away from being in the moment more rather than less, is kind of terrifying. Because, I would say already, even with, you know, the most basic technology that we have now, which is, you know, mind bending, compared to where we were even 20 years ago, you know, to think that we're only going to become more immersive is, you know, we really, really as a species, have to work out how we are going to be far better at stepping away from this stuff. And I, you know, I do, I wonder, with AI and technology whether there is, you know, there's a real backlash coming of people who do want to just unplug, yeah, Michael Hingson  12:13 well, it'll be interesting to see, and I hope that people will learn to do it. I know when I started hearing about AI, and one of the first things I heard was how kids would use it to write their papers, and it was a horrible thing, and they were trying to figure out ways so that teachers could tell us something was written by AI, as opposed to a student. And I almost immediately developed this opinion, no, let AI write the papers for students, but when the students turn in their paper, then take a day to in your class where you have every student come up and defend their paper, see who really knows it, you know. And what a great teaching opportunity and teaching moment to to get students also to learn to do public speaking and other things a little bit more than they do, but we haven't. That hasn't caught on, but I continue to preach it. Nick Francis  13:08 I think that's really smart, you know, as like aI exists, and I think to to pretend somehow that, you know, we can work without it is, you know, it's, it's, it's, yeah, I mean, it's like, well, saying, you know, we're just going to go back to Word processors or typewriters, which, you know, in which it weirdly, in their own time, people looked at and said, this is, you know, these, these are going to completely rot our minds. In fact, yeah, I think Plato said that was very against writing, because he believed it would mean no one could remember anything after that, you know. So it's, you know, it's just, it's an endless, endless evolution. But I think, you know, we have to work out how we incorporate into it, into our education system, for sure. Michael Hingson  13:57 Well, I remember being in in college and studying physics and so on. And one of the things that we were constantly told is, on tests, you can't bring calculators in, can't use calculators in class. Well, why not? Well, because you could cheat with that. Well, the reality is that the smart physicists realized that it's all about really learning the concepts more than the numbers. And yeah, that's great to to know how to do the math. But the the real issue is, do you know the physics, not just the math completely? Nick Francis  14:34 Yeah. And then how you know? How are the challenges that are being set such that you know, they really test your ability to use the calculator effectively, right? So how you know? How are you lifting the bar? And in a way, I think that's kind of what we have to do, what we have to do now, Michael Hingson  14:50 agreed, agreed. So you were in the news business and so on, and then, as you said, you left to start your own company. Why did you decide to do that? Nick Francis  14:59 Well, a friend of. Ryan and I from University had always talked about doing this rally from London to Mongolia. So, and you do it in an old car that you sort of look at, and you go, well, that's a bit rubbish. It has to have under a one liter engine. So it's tiny, it's cheap. The idea is it breaks down you have an adventure. And it was something we kind of talked about in passing and decided that would be a good thing to do. And then over time, you know, we started sending off. We you know, we applied, and then we started sending off for visas and things. And then before we knew it, we were like, gosh, so it looks like we're actually going to do this thing. But by then, you know, my job at the BBC was really taking off. And so I said, you know, let's do this, but let's make a documentary of it. So long story short, we ended up making a series of diary films for Expedia, which we uploaded onto their website. It was, you know, we were kind of pitching this around about 2005 we kind of did it in 2006 so it was kind of, you know, nobody had really heard of YouTube. The idea of making videos to go online was kind of unheard of because, you know, broadband was just kind of getting sorry. It wasn't unheard of, but it was, it was very, it was a very nascent industry. And so, yeah, we went and drove 9000 miles over five weeks. We spent a week sitting in various different repair yards and kind of break his yards in everywhere from Turkey to Siberia. And when we came back, it became clear that the internet was opening up as this incredible medium for video, and video is such a powerful way to share emotion with a dispersed audience. You know, not that I would have necessarily talked about it in that in those terms back then, but it really seemed like, you know, every every web page, every piece of corporate content, could have a video aspect to it. And so we came back and had a few fits and starts and did some, I mean, we, you know, we made a series of hotel videos where we were paid 50 quid a day to go and film hotels. And it was hot and it was hard work. And anyway, it was rough. But over time, you know, we started to win some more lucrative work. And, you know, really, the company grew from there. We won some awards, which helped us to kind of make a bit of a name for ourselves. And this was, there's been a real explosion in technology, kind of shortly after when we did this. So digital SLRs, so, you know, old kind of SLR cameras, you know, turned into digital cameras, which could then start to shoot video. And so it, there was a real explosion in high quality video produced by very small teams of people using the latest technology creatively. And that just felt like a good kind of kick off point for our business. But we just kind of because we got in in kind of 2006 we just sort of beat a wave that kind of started with digital SLRs, and then was kind of absolutely exploded when video cell phones came on the market, video smartphones. And yeah, you know, because we had these awards and we had some kind of fairly blue chip clients from a relatively early, early stage, we were able to grow the company. We then expanded to the US in kind of 2011 20 between 2011 2014 and then we were working with a lot of the big tech companies in California, so it felt like we should maybe kind of really invest in that. And so I moved out here with some of our team in 2018 at the beginning of 2018 and I've been here ever since, wow. Michael Hingson  18:44 So what is it? What was it like starting a business here, or bringing the business here, as opposed to what it was in England? Nick Francis  18:53 It's really interesting, because the creatively the UK is so strong, you know, like so many, you know, from the Beatles to Led Zeppelin to the Rolling Stones to, you know, and then on through, like all the kind of, you know, film and TV, you know, Brits are very good at kind of Creating, like, high level creative, but not necessarily always the best at kind of monetizing it, you know. I mean, some of those obviously have been fantastic successes, right? And so I think in the UK, we we take a lot longer over getting, getting to, like, the perfect creative output, whereas the US is far more focused on, you know, okay, we need this to to perform a task, and frankly, if we get it 80% done, then we're good, right? And so I think a lot of creative businesses in the UK look at the US and they go, gosh. Firstly, the streets are paved with gold. Like the commercial opportunity seems incredible, but actually creating. Tracking it is incredibly difficult, and I think it's because we sort of see the outputs in the wrong way. I think they're just the energy and the dynamism of the US economy is just, it's kind of awe inspiring. But you know, so many businesses try to expand here and kind of fall over themselves. And I think the number one thing is just, you have to have a founder who's willing to move to the US. Because I think Churchill said that we're two two countries divided by the same language. And I never fully understood what that meant until I moved here. I think what it what he really means by that is that we're so culturally different in the US versus the UK. And I think lots of Brits look at America and think, Well, you know, it's just the same. It's just a bit kind of bigger and a bit Brasher, you know, and it and actually, I think if people in the US spoke a completely different language, we would approach it as a different culture, which would then help us to understand it better. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, it's been, it's been the most fabulous adventure to move here and to, you know, it's, it's hard sometimes, and California is a long way from home, but the energy and the optimism and the entrepreneurialism of it, coupled with just the natural beauty is just staggering. So we've made some of our closest friends in California, it's been absolutely fantastic. And across the US, it's been a fantastic adventure for us and our family. Michael Hingson  21:30 Yeah, I've had the opportunity to travel all over the US, and I hear negative comments about one place or another, like West Virginia, people eat nothing but fried food and all that. But the reality is, if you really take an overall look at it, the country has so much to offer, and I have yet to find a place that I didn't enjoy going to, and people I never enjoyed meeting, I really enjoy all of that, and it's great to meet people, and it's great to experience so much of this country. And I've taken that same posture to other places. I finally got to visit England last October, for the first time. You mentioned rugby earlier, the first time I was exposed to rugby was when I traveled to New Zealand in 2003 and found it pretty fascinating. And then also, I was listening to some rugby, rugby, rugby broadcast, and I tuned across the radio and suddenly found a cricket game that was a little bit slow for me. Yeah, cricket to be it's slow. Nick Francis  22:41 Yeah, fair enough. It's funny. Actually, we know what you're saying about travel. Like one of the amazing things about our Well, I kind of learned two sort of quite fundamentally philosophical things, I think, you know, or things about the about humans and the human condition. Firstly, like, you know, traveling across, you know, we left from London. We, like, drove down. We went through Belgium and France and Poland and Slovenia, Slovakia, Slovenia, like, all the way down Bulgaria, across Turkey into Georgia and Azerbaijan and across the Caspian Sea, and through Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, into Russia, and then down into Mongolia. When we finished, we were due north of Jakarta, right? So we drove, we drove a third of the way around the world. And the two things that taught me were, firstly that human people are good. You know, everywhere we went, people would invite us in to have meals, or they'd like fix our car for not unit for free. I mean, people were so kind everywhere we went. Yeah. And the other thing was, just, when we get on a plane and you fly from here to or you fly from London, say to we, frankly, you fly from London to Turkey, it feels unbelievably different. You know, you fly from London to China, and it's, you know, complete different culture. But what our journey towards us, because we drove, was that, you know, while we might not like to admit it, we're actually quite, you know, Brits are quite similar to the French, and the French actually are quite similar to the Belgians, and Belgians quite similar to the Germans. And, you know, and all the way through, actually, like we just saw a sort of slowly changing gradient of all the different cultures. And it really, you know, we are just one people, you know. So as much as we might feel that, you know, we're all we're all different, actually, when you see it, when you when you do a drive like that, you really, you really get to see how slowly the cultures shift and change. Another thing that's quite funny, actually, was just like, everywhere we went, we would be like, you know, we're driving to Turkey. They'd be like, Oh, God, you just drove through Bulgaria, you know, how is like, everything on your car not been stolen, you know, they're so dodgy that you Bulgarians are so dodgy. And then, you know, we'd get drive through the country, and they'd be like, you know, oh, you're going into Georgia, you know, gosh, what you go. Make, make sure everything's tied down on your car. They're so dodgy. And then you get into Georgia, and they're like, Oh my God, you've just very driven through Turkey this, like, everyone sort of had these, like, weird, yeah, kind of perceptions of their neighbors. And it was all nonsense, yeah, you know. Michael Hingson  25:15 And the reality is that, as you pointed out, people are good, you know, I think, I think politicians are the ones who so often mess it up for everyone, just because they've got agendas. And unfortunately, they teach everyone else to be suspicious of of each other, because, oh, this person clearly has a hidden agenda when it normally isn't necessarily true at all. Nick Francis  25:42 No, no, no, certainly not in my experience, anyway, not in my experience. But, you know, well, oh, go ahead. No, no. It's just, you know, it's, it is. It's, it is weird the way that happens, you know, well, they say, you know, if, if politicians fought wars rather than, rather than our young men and women, then there'd be a lot less of them. Yeah, so Well, Michael Hingson  26:06 there would be, well as I tell people, you know, I I've learned a lot from working with eight guy dogs and my wife's service dog, who we had for, oh, gosh, 14 years almost, and one of the things that I tell people is I absolutely do believe what people say, that dogs love unconditionally, unless they're just totally traumatized by something, but they don't trust unconditionally. The difference between dogs and people is that dogs are more open to trust because we've taught ourselves and have been taught by others, that everyone has their own hidden agenda. So we don't trust. We're not open to trust, which is so unfortunate because it affects the psyche of so many people in such a negative way. We get too suspicious of people, so it's a lot harder to earn trust. Nick Francis  27:02 Yeah, I mean, I've, I don't know, you know, like I've been, I've been very fortunate in my life, and I kind of always try to be, you know, open and trusting. And frankly, you know, I think if you're open and trusting with people, in my experience, you kind of, it comes back to you, you know, and maybe kind of looking for the best in everyone. You know, there are times where that's not ideal, but you know, I think you know, in the overwhelming majority of cases, you know, actually, you know, you treat people right? And you know what goes what goes around, comes around, absolutely. Michael Hingson  27:35 And I think that's so very true. There are some people who just are going to be different than that, but I think for the most part, if you show that you're open to trust people will want to trust you, as long as you're also willing to trust Nick Francis  27:51 them completely. Yeah, completely. Michael Hingson  27:54 So I think that that's the big thing we have to deal with. And I don't know, I hope that we, we will learn it. But I think that politicians are really the most guilty about teaching us. Why not to trust but that too, hopefully, will be something we deal with. Nick Francis  28:12 I think, you know, I think we have to, you know, it's, it's one of the tragedies of our age, I think, is that the, you know, we spent the 20th century, thinking that sex was the kind of ultimate sales tool. And then it took algorithms to for us to realize that actually anger and resentment are the most powerful sales tools, which is, you know, it's a it's something which, in time, we will work out, right? And I think the problem is that, at the minute, these tech businesses are in such insane ascendancy, and they're so wealthy that it's very hard to regulate them. And I think in time, what will happen is, you know, they'll start to lose some of that luster and some of that insane scale and that power, and then, you know, then regulation will come in. But you know whether or not, we'll see maybe, hopefully our civilization will still be around to see that. Michael Hingson  29:04 No, there is that, or maybe the Vulcans will show up and show us a better way. But you know, Nick Francis  29:11 oh, you know, I'm, I'm kind of endlessly optimistic. I think, you know, we are. We're building towards a very positive future. I think so. Yeah, it's just, you know, get always bumps along the way, yeah. Michael Hingson  29:24 So you named your company casual. Why did you do that? Or how did that come about? Nick Francis  29:30 It's a slightly weird name for something, you know, we work with, kind of, you know, global blue chip businesses. And, you know, casual is kind of the last thing that you would want to associate with, a, with a, with any kind of services business that works in that sphere. I think, you know, we, the completely honest answer is that the journalism course I did was television, current affairs journalism, so it's called TV cadge, and so we, when we made a film for a local charity as part of that course. Course, we were asked to name our company, and we just said, well, cash, cash casual, casual films. So we called it casual films. And then when my friend and I set the company up, kind of formally, to do the Mongol Rally, we, you know, we had this name, you know, the company, the film that we'd made for the charity, had gone down really well. It had been played at BAFTA in London. And so we thought, well, you know, we should just, you know, hang on to that name. And it didn't, you know, at the time, it didn't really seem too much of an issue. It was only funny. It was coming to the US, where I think people are a bit more literal, and they were a bit like, well, casual. Like, why casual, you know. And I remember being on a shoot once. And, you know, obviously, kind of some filmmakers can be a little casual themselves, not necessarily in the work, but in the way they present themselves, right? And I remember sitting down, we were interviewing this CEO, and he said, who, you know, who are you? Oh, we're casual films. He's like, Oh, is that why that guy's got ripped jeans? Is it? And I just thought, Damn, you know, we really left ourselves open to that. There was also, there was a time one of our early competitors was called Agile films. And so, you know, I remember talking to one of our clients who said, you know, it's casual, you know, when I have to put together a little document to say, you know, which, which supplier we should choose, and when I lay it on my boss's desk, and one says casual films, and one says agile films, it's like those guys are landing the first punch. But anyway, we, you know, we, what we say now is like, you know, we take a complex process and make it casual. You know, filmmaking, particularly for like, large, complex organizations where you've got lots of different stakeholders, can be very complicated. And so, yeah, we sort of say, you know, we'll take a lot of that stress off, off our clients. So that's kind of the rationale, you know, that we've arrived with, arrived at having spoken to lots of our clients about the role that we play for them. So, you know, there's a kind of positive spin on it, I guess, but I don't know. I don't know whether I'd necessarily call it casual again. I don't know if I'm supposed to say that or not, but, oh, Michael Hingson  32:00 it's unique, you know? So, yeah, I think there's a lot of merit to it. It's a unique name, and it interests people. I know, for me, one of the things that I do is I have a way of doing this. I put all of my business cards in Braille, so the printed business cards have Braille on them, right? Same thing. It's unique completely. Nick Francis  32:22 And you listen, you know what look your name is an empty box that you fill with your identity. They say, right? And casual is actually, it's something we've grown into. And you know it's we've been going for nearly 20 years. In fact, funny enough for the end of this year is the 20th anniversary of that first film we made for the for the charity. And then next summer will be our 20th anniversary, which is, you know, it's, it's both been incredibly short and incredibly long, you know, I think, like any kind of experience in life, and it's been some of the hardest kind of times of my entire life, and some of the best as well. So, you know, it's, it is what it is, but you know, casual is who we are, right? I would never check, you know? I'd never change it. Michael Hingson  33:09 Now, no, of course not, yeah. So is the actual name casual films, or just casual? Nick Francis  33:13 So it was casual films, but then everyone calls us casual anyway, and I think, like as an organization, we probably need to be a bit more agnostic about the outcome. Michael Hingson  33:22 Well, the reason I asked, in part was, is there really any filming going on anymore? Nick Francis  33:28 Well, that's a very that's a very good question. But have we actually ever made a celluloid film? And I think the answer is probably no. We used to, back in the day, we used to make, like, super eight films, which were films, I think, you know, video, you know, ultimately, if you're going to be really pedantic about it, it's like, well, video is a digital, digital delivery. And so basically, every film we make is, is a video. But there is a certain cachet to the you know, because our films are loved and crafted, you know, for good or ill, you know, I think to call them, you know, they are films because, because of the, you know, the care that's put into them. But it's not, it's, it's not celluloid. No, that's okay, yeah, well, Michael Hingson  34:16 and I know that, like with vinyl records, there is a lot of work being done to preserve and capture what's on cellular film. And so there's a lot of work that I'm sure that's being done to digitize a lot of the old films. And when you do that, then you can also go back and remaster and hopefully in a positive way, and I'm not sure if that always happens, but in a positive way, enhance them Nick Francis  34:44 completely, completely and, you know, it's, you know, it's interesting talking about, like, you know, people wanting to step back. You know, obviously vinyl is having an absolute as having a moment right now. In fact, I just, I just bought a new stylist for my for my record. Play yesterday. It sounded incredible as a joy. This gave me the sound quality of this new style. It's fantastic. You know, beyond that, you know, running a company, you know, we're in nine offices all over the world. We produce nearly 1000 projects a year. So, you know, it's a company. It's an incredibly complicated company. It's a very fun and exciting company. I love the fact that we make these beautifully creative films. But, you know, it's a bit, I wouldn't say it's like, I don't know, you don't get many MBAs coming out of business school saying, hey, I want to set up a video production company. But, you know, it's been, it's been wonderful, but it's also been stressful. And so, you know, I've, I've always been interested in pottery and ceramics and making stuff with my hands. When I was a kid, I used to make jewelry, and I used to go and sell it in nightclubs, which is kind of weird, but, you know, it paid for my beers. And then whatever works, I say kid. I was 18. I was, I was of age, but of age in the UK anyway. But now, you know, over the last few 18 months or so, I've started make, doing my own ceramics. So, you know, I make vases and and pictures and kind of all sorts of stuff out of clay. And it's just, it's just to be to unplug and just to go and, you know, make things with mud with your hands. It's just the most unbelievably kind of grounding experience. Michael Hingson  36:26 Yeah, I hear you, yeah. One of the things that I like to do is, and I don't get to do it as much as I would like, but I am involved with organizations like the radio enthusiasts of Puget Sound, which, every year, does recreations of old radio shows. And so we get the scripts we we we have several blind people who are involved in we actually go off and recreate some of the old shows, which is really a lot of fun, Nick Francis  36:54 I bet, yeah, yeah, sort of you know that connection to the past is, is, yeah, it's great radio. Radio is amazing. Michael Hingson  37:03 Anyway, what we have to do is to train some of the people who have not had exposure to old radio. We need to train them as to how to really use their voices to convey like the people who performed in radio, whatever they're doing, because too many people don't really necessarily know how to do that well. And it is, it is something that we're going to work on trying to find ways to get people really trained. And one of the ways, of course, is you got to listen to the old show. So one of the things we're getting more and more people to do when we do recreations is to go back and listen to the original show. Well, they say, Well, but, but that's just the way they did it. That's not necessarily the way it should be done. And the response is, no, that's not really true. The way they did it sounded natural, and the way you are doing it doesn't and there's reality that you need to really learn how to to use your voice to convey well, and the only way to do it is to listen to the experts who did it. Nick Francis  38:06 Yeah, well, it's, you know, it's amazing. The, you know, when the BBC was founded, all the news readers and anyone who appeared on on the radio to to present or perform, had to wear like black tie, like a tuxedo, because it was, you know, they're broadcasting to the nation, so they had to, you know, they had to be dressed appropriately, right, which is kind of amazing. And, you know, it's interesting how you know, when you, when you change your dress, when you change the way you're sitting, it does completely change the way that you project yourself, yeah, Michael Hingson  38:43 it makes sense, yeah, well, and I always enjoyed some of the old BBC radio shows, like the Goon Show, and completely some of those are so much fun. Nick Francis  38:54 Oh, great, yeah, I don't think they were wearing tuxedo. It's tuxedos. They would Michael Hingson  38:59 have been embarrassed. Yeah, right, right. Can you imagine Peter Sellers in a in a tux? It just isn't going to happen. Nick Francis  39:06 No, right, right. But yeah, no, it's so powerful. You know, they say radio is better than TV because the pictures are better. Michael Hingson  39:15 I agree. Yeah, sure, yeah. Well, you know, I I don't think this is quite the way he said it, but Fred Allen, the old radio comedian, once said they call television the new medium, because that's as good as it's ever going Nick Francis  39:28 to get. Yeah, right, right, yeah. Michael Hingson  39:32 I think there's truth to it. Whether that's exactly the way he said it or not, there's truth to that, yeah, but there's also a lot of good stuff on TV, so it's okay. Nick Francis  39:41 Well, it's so interesting. Because, you know, when you look at the it's never been more easy to create your own content, yeah, and so, you know, and like, in a way, TV, you know, he's not wrong in that, because it suddenly opened up this, this huge medium for people just to just create. Right? And, you know, and I think, like so many people, create without thinking, and, you know, and certainly in our kind of, in the in the world that we're living in now with AI production, making production so much more accessible, actually taking the time as a human being just to really think about, you know, who are the audience, what are the things that are going to what are going to kind of resonate with them? You know? Actually, I think one of the risks with AI, and not just AI, but just like production being so accessible, is that you can kind of shoot first and kind of think about it afterwards, and, you know, and that's never good. That's always going to be medium. It's medium at best, frankly. Yeah, so yeah, to create really great stuff takes time, you know, yeah, to think about it. Yeah, for sure, yeah. Michael Hingson  40:50 Well, you know, our podcast is called unstoppable mindset. What do you think that unstoppable mindset really means to you as a practical thing and not just a buzzword. Because so many people talk about the kinds of buzzwords I hear all the time are amazing. That's unstoppable, but it's really a lot more than a buzzword. It goes back to what you think, I think. But what do you think? Nick Francis  41:15 I think it's something that is is buried deep inside you. You know, I'd say the simple answer is, is just resilience. You know, it's, it's been rough. I write anyone running a small business or a medium sized business at the minute, you know, there's been some tough times over the last, kind of 1824, months or so. And, you know, I was talking to a friend of mine who she sold out of her business. And she's like, you know, how are things? I was like, you know, it's, it's, it's tough, you know, we're getting through it, you know, we're changing a lot of things, you know, we're like, we're definitely making the business better, but it's hard. And she's like, Listen, you know, when three years before I sold my company, I was at rock bottom. It was, I genuinely thought it was so stressful. I was crushed by it, but I just kept going. And she's just like, just keep going. And the only difference between success and failure is that resilience and just getting up every day and you just keep, keep throwing stuff at the wall, keep trying new things, keep working and trying to be better. I think, you know, it's funny when you look at entrepreneurs, I'm a member of a mentoring group, and I hope I'm not talking out of school here, but you know, there's 15 entrepreneurs, you know, varying sizes of business, doing all sorts, you know, across all sorts of different industries. And if you sat on the wall, if you were fly on the wall, and you sit and look at these people on a kind of week, month to month basis, and they all present on how their businesses are going. You go, this is this being an entrepreneur does not look like a uniformly fun thing, you know, the sort of the stress and just, you know, people crying and stuff, and you're like, gosh, you know, it's so it's, it's, it's hard, and yet, you know, it's people just keep coming back to it. And yet, I think it's because of that struggle that you have to kind of have something in built in you, that you're sort of, you're there to prove something. And I, you know, I've thought a lot about this, and I wonder whether, kind of, the death of my father at such a young age kind of gave me this incredible fire to seek His affirmation, you know. And unfortunately, obviously, the tragedy of that is like, you know, the one person who would never give me affirmation is my dad. And yet, you know, I get up every day, you know, to have early morning calls with the UK or with Singapore or wherever. And you know, you just just keep on, keeping on. And I think that's probably what and knowing I will never quit, you know, like, even from the earliest days of casual, when we were just, like a couple of people, and we were just, you know, kids doing our very best, I always knew the company was going to be a success act. Like, just a core belief that I was like, this is going to work. This is going to be a success. I didn't necessarily know what that success would look like. I just but I did know that, like, whatever it took, we would map, we'd map our way towards that figure it out. We'd figure it out. And I think, you know, there's probably something unstoppable. I don't know, I don't want to sound immodest, but I think there's probably something in that that you're just like, I am just gonna keep keep on, keeping on. Michael Hingson  44:22 Do you think that resilience and unstoppability are things that can be taught, or is it just something that's built into you, and either you have it or you don't? Nick Francis  44:31 I think it's something that probably, it's definitely something that can be learned, for sure, you know. And there are obviously ways that it can there's obviously ways it can be taught. You know, I was, I spent some time in the reserve, like the Army Reserve in the UK, and I just, you know, a lot of that is about teaching you just how much further you can go. I think what it taught me was it was so. So hard. I mean, honestly, some of the stuff we did in our training was, like, you know, it's just raining and raining and raining and, like, because all your kits soaking wet is weighs twice what it did before, and you just, you know, sleeping maybe, you know, an hour or two a night, and, you know, and there wasn't even anyone shooting at us, right? So, you know, like the worst bit wasn't even happening. But like, and like, in a sense, I think, you know, that's what they're trying to do, that, you know, they say, you know, train hard and fight easy. But I remember sort of sitting there, and I was just exhausted, and I just genuinely, I was just thought, you know, what if they tell me to go now, I just, I can't. I literally, I can't, I can't do it. Can't do it. And then they're like, right, lads, put your packs on. Let's go and just put your pack on. Off you go, you know, like, this sort of, the idea of not, like, I was never going to quit, just never, never, ever, you know, and like I'd physically, if I physically, like, literally, my physical being couldn't stand up, you know, I then that was be, that would be, you know, if I was kind of, like literally incapacitated. And I think what that taught me actually, was that, you know, you have what you believe you can do, like you have your sort of, you have your sort of physical envelope, but like that is only a third or a quarter of what you can actually achieve, right, you know. And I think what that, what the that kind of training is about, and you know, you can do it in marathon training. You can do it in all sorts of different, you know, even, frankly, meditate. You know, you train your mind to meditate for, you know, an hour, 90 minutes plus. You know, you're still doing the same. You know, there's a, there's an elasticity within your brain where you can teach yourself that your envelope is so much larger. Yeah. So, yeah, you know, like, is casual going to be a success? Like, I'm good, you know, I'm literally, I won't I won't stop until it is Michael Hingson  46:52 right, and then why stop? Exactly, exactly you continue to progress and move forward. Well, you know, when everything feels uncertain, whether it's the markets or whatever, what do you do or what's your process for finding clarity? Nick Francis  47:10 I think a lot of it is in having structured time away. I say structured. You build it into your calendar, but like, but it's unstructured. So, you know, I take a lot of solace in being physically fit. You know, I think if you're, if you feel physically fit, then you feel mentally far more able to deal with things. I certainly when I'm if I'm unfit and if I've been working too much and I haven't been finding the time to exercise. You know, I feel like the problems we have to face just loom so much larger. So, you know, I, I'll book out. I, you know, I work with a fan. I'm lucky enough to have a fantastic assistant who, you know, we book in my my exercise for each week, and it's almost the first thing that goes in the calendar. I do that because I can't be the business my my I can't be the leader my business requires. And it finally happened. It was a few years ago I kind of, like, the whole thing just got really big on me, and it just, you know, and I'm kind of, like, being crushed by it. And I just thought, you know what? Like, I can't, I can't fit other people's face mask, without my face mask being fit, fitted first. Like, in order to be the business my business, I keep saying that to be the lead in my business requires I have to be physically fit. So I have to look after myself first. And so consequently, like, you know, your exercise shouldn't be something just get squeezed in when you find when you have time, because, you know, if you've got family and you know, other things happening, like, you know, just will be squeezed out. So anyway, that goes in. First, I'll go for a bike ride on a Friday afternoon, you know, I'll often listen to a business book and just kind of process things. And it's amazing how often, you know, I'll just go for a run and, like, these things that have been kind of nagging away in the back of my mind, just suddenly I find clarity in them. So I try to exercise, like, five times a week. I mean, that's obviously more than most people can can manage, but you know that that really helps. And then kind of things, like the ceramics is very useful. And then, you know, I'm lucky. I think it's also just so important just to appreciate the things that you already have. You know, I think one of the most important lessons I learned last year was this idea that, you know, here is the only there. You know, everyone's working towards this kind of, like, big, you know, it's like, oh, you know, when I get to there, then everything's going to be okay, you know. And actually, you know, if you think about like, you know, and what did you want to achieve when you left college? Like, what was the salary band that you want? That you wanted to achieve? Right? A lot of people, you know, by the time you hit 4050, you've blown way through that, right? And yet you're still chasing the receding Summit, yeah, you know. And so actually, like, wherever we're trying to head to, we're already there, because once you get there, there's going to be another there that you're trying to. Head to right? So, so, you know, it's just taking a moment to be like, you know, God, I'm so lucky to have what I have. And, you know, I'm living in, we're living in the good old days, like right now, right? Michael Hingson  50:11 And the reality is that we're doing the same things and having the same discussions, to a large degree, that people did 50, 100 200 years ago. As you pointed out earlier, the fact is that we're, we're just having the same discussions about whether this works, or whether that works, or anything else. But it's all the same, Nick Francis  50:33 right, you know. And you kind of think, oh, you know, if I just, just, like, you know, if we just open up these new offices, or if we can just, you know, I think, like, look, if I, if I'd looked at casual when we started it as it is now, I would have just been like, absolute. My mind would have exploded, right? You know, if you look at what we've achieved, and yet, I kind of, you know, it's quite hard sometimes to look at it and just be like, Oh yeah, but we're only just starting. Like, there's so much more to go. I can see so much further work, that we need so many more things, that we need to do, so many more things that we could do. And actually, you know, they say, you know, I'm lucky enough to have two healthy, wonderful little girls. And you know, I think a lot of bread winners Look at, look at love being provision, and the idea that, you know, you have to be there to provide for them. And actually, the the truest form of love is presence, right? And just being there for them, and like, you know, not being distracted and kind of putting putting things aside, you know, not jumping on your emails or your Slack messages or whatever first thing in the morning, you know. And I, you know, I'm not. I'm guilty, like, I'm not, you know, I'm not one of these people who have this kind of crazy kind of morning routine where, like, you know, I'm incredibly disciplined about that because, you know, and I should be more. But like, you know, this stuff, one of the, one of the things about having a 24 hour business with people working all over the world is there's always things that I need to respond to. There's always kind of interesting things happening. And so just like making sure that I catch myself every so often to be like, I'm just going to be here now and I'm going to be with them, and I'm going to listen to what they're saying, and I'm going to respond appropriately, and, you know, I'm going to play a game with them, or whatever. That's true love. You know? Michael Hingson  52:14 Well, there's a lot of merit to the whole concept of unplugging and taking time and living in the moment. One of the things that we talked about in my book live like a guide dog, that we published last year, and it's all about lessons I've learned about leadership and teamwork and preparedness from eight guide dogs and my wife's service dog. One of the things that I learned along the way is the whole concept of living in the moment when I was in the World Trade Center with my fifth guide dog, Roselle. We got home, and I was going to take her outside to go visit the bathroom, but as soon as I took the harness off, she shot off, grabbed her favorite tug bone and started playing tug of war with my retired guide dog. Asked the veterinarians about him the next day, the people at Guide Dogs for the Blind, and they said, Well, did anything threaten her? And I said, No. And they said, there's your answer. The reality is, dogs live in the moment when it was over. It was over. And yeah, right lesson to learn. Nick Francis  53:15 I mean, amazing, absolutely amazing. You must have taken a lot of strength from that. Michael Hingson  53:20 Oh, I think it was, it was great. It, you know, I can look back at my life and look at so many things that have happened, things that I did. I never thought that I would become a public speaker, but I learned in so many ways the art of speaking and being relaxed at speaking in a in a public setting, that when suddenly I was confronted with the opportunity to do it, it just seemed like the natural thing to do. Nick Francis  53:46 Yeah, it's funny, because I think isn't public speaking the number one fear. It is. It's the most fit. It's the most feared thing for the most people. Michael Hingson  53:57 And the reality is going back to something that we talked about before. The reality is, audiences want you to succeed, unless you're a jerk and you project that, audiences want to hear what you have to say. They want you to be successful. There's really nothing to be afraid of but, but you're right. It is the number one fear, and I've never understood that. I mean, I guess I can intellectually understand it, but internally, I don't. The first time I was asked to speak after the World Trade Center attacks, a pastor called me up and he said, we're going to we're going to have a service outside for all the people who we lost in New Jersey and and that we would like you to come and speak. Take a few minutes. And I said, Sure. And then I asked him, How many people many people were going to be at the service? He said, 6000 that was, that was my first speech. Nick Francis  54:49 Yeah, wow. But it didn't bother me, you know, no, I bet Michael Hingson  54:54 you do the best you can, and you try to improve, and so on. But, but it is true that so many people. Are public speaking, and there's no reason to what Nick Francis  55:03 did that whole experience teach you? Michael Hingson  55:06 Well, one of the things that taught me was, don't worry about the things that you can't control. It also taught me that, in reality, any of us can be confronted with unexpected things at any time, and the question is, how well do we prepare to deal with it? So for me, for example, and it took me years after September 11 to recognize this, but one of the things that that happened when the building was hit, and Neither I, nor anyone on my side of the building really knew what happened. People say all the time, well, you didn't know because you couldn't see it. Well, excuse me, it hit 18 floors above us on the other side of the building. And the last time I checked X ray vision was fictitious, so nobody knew. But did the building shake? Oh, it tipped. Because tall buildings like that are flexible. And if you go to any tall building, in reality, they're made to buffet in wind storms and so on, and in fact, they're made to possibly be struck by an airplane, although no one ever expected that somebody would deliberately take a fully loaded jet aircraft and crash it into a tower, because it wasn't the plane hitting the tower as such that destroyed both of them. It was the exploding jet fuel that destroyed so much more infrastructure caused the buildings to collapse. But in reality, for me, I had done a lot of preparation ahead of time, not even thinking that there would be an emergency, but thinking about I need to really know all I can about the building, because I've got to be the leader of my office, and I should know all of that. I should know what to do in an emergency. I should know how to take people to lunch and where to go and all that. And by learning all of that, as I learned many and discovered many years later, it created a mindset that kicked in when the World Trade Center was struck, and in fact, we didn't know until after both towers had collapsed, and I called my wife. We I talked with her just before we evacuated, and the media hadn't even gotten the story yet, but I never got a chance to talk with her until after both buildings had collapsed, and then I was able to get through and she's the first one that told us how the two buildings had been hit by hijacked aircraft. But the mindset had kicked in that said, You know what to do, do it and that. And again, I didn't really think about that until much later, but that's something that is a lesson we all could learn. We shouldn't rely on just watching signs to know what to do, no to go in an emergency. We should really know it, because the knowledge, rather than just having information, the true intellectual knowledge that we internalize, makes such a big difference. Nick Francis  57:46 Do you think it was the fact that you were blind that made you so much more keen to know the way out that kind of that really helped you to understand that at the time? Michael Hingson  57:56 Well, what I think is being blind and growing up in an environment where so many things could be unexpected, for me, it was important to know so, for example, when I would go somewhere to meet a customer, I would spend time, ahead of time, learning how to get around, learning how to get to where they were and and learning what what the process was, because we didn't have Google Maps and we didn't have all the intellectual and and technological things that we have today. Well intellectual we did with the technology we didn't have. So today it's easier, but still, I want to know what to do. I want to really have the answers, and then I can can more easily and more effectively deal with what I need to deal with and react. So I'm sure that blindness played a part in all of that, because if I hadn't learned how to do the things that I did and know the things that I knew, then it would have been a totally different ball game, and so sure, I'm sure, I'm certain that blindness had something to do with it, but I also know that, that the fact is, what I learned is the same kinds of things that everyone should learn, and we shouldn't rely on just the signs, because what if the building were full of smoke, then what would you do? Right? And I've had examples of that since I was at a safety council meeting once where there was somebody from an electric company in Missouri who said, you know, we've wondered for years, what do we do if there's a fire in the generator room, in the basement, In the generator room, how do people get out? And he and I actually worked on it, and they developed a way where people could have a path that they could follow with their feet to get them out. But the but the reality is that what people first need to learn is eyesight is not the only game in town. Yeah, right. Mean, it's so important to really learn that, but people, people don't, and we take too many things for granted, which is, which is really so unfortunate, because we really should do a li

What happens when your voice is built through visuals, not volume? In this Unstoppable Mindset episode, I talk with photographer and storyteller Mobeen Ansari about growing up with hearing loss, learning speech with support from his family and the John Tracy Center, and using technology to stay connected in real time. We also explore how his art became a bridge across culture and faith, from documenting religious minorities in Pakistan to chronicling everyday heroes, and why he feels urgency to photograph climate change before more communities, heritage sites, and ways of life are lost. You'll hear how purpose grows when you share your story in a way that helps others feel less alone, and why Mobeen believes one story can become a blueprint for someone else to navigate their own challenge. Highlights: 00:03:54 - Learn how early family support can shape confidence, communication, and independence for life. 00:08:31 - Discover how deciding when to capture a moment can define your values as a storyteller. 00:15:14 - Learn practical ways to stay fully present in conversations when hearing is a daily challenge. 00:23:24 - See how unexpected role models can redefine what living fully looks like at any stage of life. 00:39:15 - Understand how visual storytelling can cross cultural and faith boundaries without words. 00:46:38 - Learn why documenting climate change now matters before stories, places, and communities disappear. About the Guest: Mobeen Ansari is a photographer, filmmaker and artist from Islamabad, Pakistan. Having a background in fine arts, he picked up the camera during high school and photographed his surroundings and friends- a path that motivated him to be a pictorial historian. His journey as a photographer and artist is deeply linked to a challenge that he had faced since after his birth.  Three weeks after he was born, Mobeen was diagnosed with hearing loss due to meningitis, and this challenge has inspired him to observe people more visually, which eventually led him to being an artist. He does advocacy for people with hearing loss.  Mobeen's work focuses on his home country of Pakistan and its people, promoting a diverse & poetic image of his country through his photos & films. As a photojournalist he focuses on human interest stories and has extensively worked on topics of climate change, global health and migration. Mobeen has published three photography books. His first one, ‘Dharkan: The Heartbeat of a Nation', features portraits of iconic people of Pakistan from all walks of life. His second book, called ‘White in the Flag' is based on the lives & festivities of religious minorities in Pakistan. Both these books have had two volumes published over the years. His third book is called ‘Miraas' which is also about iconic people of Pakistan and follows ‘Dharkan' as a sequel. Mobeen has also made two silent movies; 'Hellhole' is a black and white short film, based on the life of a sanitation worker, and ‘Lady of the Emerald Scarf' is based on the life of Aziza, a carpet maker in Guilmit in Northern Pakistan. He has exhibited in Pakistan & around the world, namely in UK, Italy, China Iraq, & across the US and UAE. His photographs have been displayed in many famous places as well, including Times Square in New York City. Mobeen is also a recipient of the Swedish Red Cross Journalism prize for his photography on the story of FIFA World Cup football manufacture in Sialkot. Ways to connect with Mobeen**:** www.mobeenansari.com Facebook: www.facebook.com/mobeenart  Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mobeenansari/ Instagram: @mobeenansariphoto X: @Mobeen_Ansari About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host. Michael Hingson, we're really glad that you are here, and today we are going to talk to Mobeen Ansari, and Mobeen is in Islamabad. I believe you're still in Islamabad, aren't you? There we go. I am, yeah. And so, so he is 12 hours ahead of where we are. So it is four in the afternoon here, and I can't believe it, but he's up at four in the morning where he is actually I get up around the same time most mornings, but I go to bed earlier than he does. Anyway. We're really glad that he is here. He is a photographer, he speaks he's a journalist in so many ways, and we're going to talk about all of that as we go forward. Mobin also is profoundly hard of hearing. Uses hearing aids. He was diagnosed as being hard of hearing when he was three weeks old. So I'm sure we're going to talk about that a little bit near the beginning, so we'll go ahead and start. So mo bean, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad that you're here. Mobeen Ansari  02:32 It's a pleasure to be here, and I'm honored to plan your show. Thank you so much. Michael Hingson  02:37 Well, thank you very much, and I'm glad that we're able to make this work, and I should explain that he is able to read what is going on the screen. I use a program called otter to transcribe when necessary, whatever I and other people in a meeting, or in this case, in a podcast, are saying, and well being is able to read all of that. So that's one of the ways, and one of the reasons that we get to do this in real time. So it's really kind of cool, and I'm really excited by that. Well, let's go ahead and move forward. Why don't you tell us a little about the early Beau beam growing up? And obviously that starts, that's where your adventure starts in a lot of ways. So why don't you tell us about you growing up and all that. Mobeen Ansari  03:22 So I'm glad you mentioned the captions part, because, you know, that has been really, really revolutionary. That has been quite a lifesaver, be it, you know, Netflix, be it anywhere I go into your life, I read captions like there's an app on my phone that I use for real life competitions, and that's where I, you know, get everything. That's where technology is pretty cool. So I do that because of my hearing does, as you mentioned, when I was three weeks old, I had severe meningitis due to it, had lost hearing in both my ear and so when my hearing loss were diagnosed, it was, you know, around the time we didn't have resources, the technology that we do today. Michael Hingson  04:15 When was that? What year was that about? Mobeen Ansari  04:19 1986 okay, sorry, 1987 so yeah, so they figured that I had locked my hearing at three weeks of age, but didn't properly diagnose it until I think I was three months old. So yeah, then January was my diagnosis, okay. Michael Hingson  04:44 And so how did you how did you function, how did you do things when you were, when you were a young child? Because at that point was kind of well, much before you could use a hearing aid and learn to speak and so on. So what? Mobeen Ansari  05:00 You do. So my parents would have a better memory of that than I would, but I would say that they were, you know, extra hard. They went an extra mile. I mean, I would say, you know, 100 extra mile. My mother learned to be a peace therapist, and my father. He learned to be he learned how to read audiogram, to learn the audiology, familiarize himself with hearing a technology with an engineer support. My parents work around me. David went to a lot of doctors, obviously, I was a very difficult child, but I think that actually laid the foundation in me becoming an artist. Because, you know, today, the hearing is it fits right into my ear so you cannot see it, basically because my hair is longer. But back then, hearing aids used to be almost like on a harness, and you to be full of quiet, so you would actually stick out like a sore thumb. So, you know, obviously you stand out in a crowd. So I would be very conscious, and I would often, you know, get asked what this is. So I would say, this is a radio but for most part of my childhood, I was very introverted, but I absolutely love art. My grandmother's for the painter, and she was also photographer, as well as my grandfather, the hobbyist photographer, and you know, seeing them create all of the visuals in different ways, I was inspired, and I would tell my stories in form of sketching or making modified action figures. And photography was something I picked up way later on in high school, when the first digital camera had just come out, and I finally started in a really interacting with the world. Michael Hingson  07:13 So early on you you drew because you didn't really use the camera yet. And I think it's very interesting how much your parents worked to make sure they could really help you. As you said, Your mother was a speech you became a speech therapist, and your father learned about the technologies and so on. So when did you start using hearing aids? That's Mobeen Ansari  07:42 a good question. I think I probably started using it when I was two years old. Okay, yeah, yeah, that's gonna start using it, but then, you know, I think I'll probably have to ask my parents capacity, but a moment, Mobeen Ansari  08:08 you know, go ahead, I think they worked around me. They really improvised on the situation. They learned at the went along, and I think I learned speech gradually. Did a lot of, you know, technical know, how about this? But I would also have to credit John Troy clinic in Los Angeles, because, you know, back then, there was no mobile phone, there were no emails, but my mother would put in touch with John Troy center in LA and they would send a lot of material back and forth for many years, and they would provide a guidance. They would provide her a lot of articles, a lot of details on how to help me learn speech. A lot of visuals were involved. And because of the emphasis on visuals, I think that kind of pushed me further to become an artist, because I would speak more, but with just so to Michael Hingson  09:25 say so, it was sort of a natural progression for you, at least it seemed that way to you, to start using art as a way to communicate, as opposed as opposed to talking. Mobeen Ansari  09:39 Yeah, absolutely, you know, so I would like pass forward a little bit to my high school. You know, I was always a very shy child up until, you know, my early teens, and the first camera had just come out, this was like 2001 2002 at. It. That's when my dad got one, and I would take that to school today. You know, everyone has a smartphone back then, if you had a camera, you're pretty cool. And that is what. I started taking pictures of my friends. I started taking pictures of my teachers, of landscapes around me. And I would even capture, you know, funniest of things, like my friend getting late for school, and one day, a friend of mine got into a fight because somebody stole his girlfriend, or something like that happened, you know, that was a long time ago, and he lost the fight, and he turned off into the world court to cry, and he was just sort of, you're trying to hide all his vulnerability. I happened to be in the same place as him, and I had my camera, and I was like, should I capture this moment, or should I let this permit go? And well, I decided to capture it, and that is when human emotion truly started to fascinate me. So I was born in a very old city. I live in the capital of Islamabad right now, but I was born in the city of travel to be and that is home to lots of old, you know, heritage sites, lots of old places, lots of old, interesting scenes. And you know, that always inspired you, that always makes you feel alive. And I guess all of these things came together. And, you know, I really got into the art of picture storytelling. And by the end of my high school graduation, everybody was given an award. The certificate that I was given was, it was called pictorial historian, and that is what inspired me to really document everything. Document my country. Document is people, document landscape. In fact, that award it actually has in my studio right now been there for, you know, over 21 years, but it inspired me luck to this day. Michael Hingson  12:20 So going back to the story you just told, did you tell your friend that you took pictures of him when he was crying? Mobeen Ansari  12:32 Eventually, yes, I would not talk. You're familiar with the content back then, but the Catholic friend, I know so I mean, you know everyone, you're all kids, so yeah, very, yeah, that was a very normal circumstance. But yeah, you know, Michael Hingson  12:52 how did he react when you told him, Mobeen Ansari  12:56 Oh, he was fine. It's pretty cool about it, okay, but I should probably touch base with him. I haven't spoken to him for many years that Yeah, Michael Hingson  13:08 well, but as long as Yeah, but obviously you were, you were good friends, and you were able to continue that. So that's, that's pretty cool. So you, your hearing aids were also probably pretty large and pretty clunky as well, weren't they? Mobeen Ansari  13:26 Yeah, they were. But you know, with time my hearing aid became smaller. Oh sure. So hearing aid model that I'm wearing right now that kind of started coming in place from 1995 1995 96 onwards. But you know, like, even today, it's called like BDE behind the ear, hearing it even today, I still wear the large format because my hearing loss is more it's on the profound side, right? Just like if I take my hearing, it off. I cannot hear but that's a great thing, because if I don't want to listen to anybody, right, and I can sleep peacefully at night. Michael Hingson  14:21 Have you ever used bone conduction headphones or earphones? Mobeen Ansari  14:30 But I have actually used something I forgot what is called, but these are very specific kind of ear bone that get plugged into your hearing it. So once you plug into that, you cannot hear anything else. But it discontinued that. So now they use Bluetooth. Michael Hingson  14:49 Well, bone conduction headphones are, are, are devices that, rather than projecting the audio into your ear, they actually. Be projected straight into the bone and bypassing most of the ear. And I know a number of people have found them to be useful, like, if you want to listen to music and so on, or listen to audio, you can connect them. There are Bluetooth versions, and then there are cable versions, but the sound doesn't go into your ear. It goes into the bone, which is why they call it bone conduction. Mobeen Ansari  15:26 Okay, that's interesting, I think. Michael Hingson  15:29 And some of them do work with hearing aids as well. Mobeen Ansari  15:34 Okay, yeah, I think I've experienced that when they do the audio can test they put, like at the back of your head or something? Michael Hingson  15:43 Yeah, the the most common one, at least in the United States, and I suspect most places, is made by a company called aftershocks. I think it's spelled A, F, T, E, R, S, H, O, k, s, but something to think about. Anyway. So you went through high school mostly were, were your student colleagues and friends, and maybe not always friends? Were they pretty tolerant of the fact that you were a little bit different than they were. Did you ever have major problems with people? Mobeen Ansari  16:22 You know, I've actually had a great support system, and for most part, I actually had a lot of amazing friends from college who are still my, you know, friend to the dead, sorry, from school. I'm actually closer to my friend from school than I am two friends of college difficulties. You know, if you're different, you'll always be prone to people who sort of are not sure how to navigate that, or just want, you know, sort of test things out. So to say, so it wasn't without his problems, but for most part of it's surprisingly, surprisingly, I've had a great support system, but, you know, the biggest challenge was actually not being able to understand conversation. So I'm going to go a bit back and forth on the timeline here. You know, if so, in 2021, I had something known as menus disease. Menier disease is something, it's an irregular infection that arises from stress, and what happens is that you're hearing it drops and it is replaced by drinking and bathing and all sorts of real according to my experience, it affects those with hearing loss much more than it affects those with regular, normal hearing. It's almost like tinnitus on steroids. That is how I would type it. And I've had about three occurrences of that, either going to stress or being around loud situations and noises, and that is where it became so challenging that it became difficult to hear, even with hearing it or lip reading. So that is why I use a transcriber app wherever I go, and that been a lifesaver, you know. So I believe that every time I have evolved to life, every time I have grown up, I've been able to better understand people to like at the last, you know, four years I've been using this application to now, I think I'm catching up on all the nuances of conversation that I've missed. Right if I would talk to you five years ago, I would probably understand 40% of what you're saying. I would understand it by reading your lips or your body language or ask you to write or take something for me, but now with this app, I'm able to actually get to 99% of the conversation. So I think with time, people have actually become more tired and more accepting, and now there is more awareness. I think, awareness, right? Michael Hingson  19:24 Well, yeah, I was gonna say it's been an only like the last four years or so, that a lot of this has become very doable in real time, and I think also AI has helped the process. But do you find that the apps and the other technologies, like what we use here, do you find that occasionally it does make mistakes, or do you not even see that very much at all? Mobeen Ansari  19:55 You know it does make mistakes, and the biggest problem is when there is no data, when there is no. Wide network, or if it runs out of battery, you know, because now I kind of almost 24/7 so my battery just integrate that very fast. And also because, you know, if I travel in remote regions of Pakistan, because I'm a photographer, my job to travel to all of these places, all of these hidden corners. So I need to have conversation, especially in those places. And if that ad didn't work there, then we have a problem. Yeah, that is when it's problem. Sometimes, depending on accidents, it doesn't pick up everything. So, you know, sometimes that happens, but I think technology is improving. Michael Hingson  20:50 Let me ask the question. Let me ask the question this way. Certainly we're speaking essentially from two different parts of the world. When you hear, when you hear or see me speak, because you're you're able to read the transcriptions. I'm assuming it's pretty accurate. What is it like when you're speaking? Does the system that we're using here understand you well as in addition to understanding me? Mobeen Ansari  21:18 Well, yes, I think it does so like, you know, I just occasionally look down to see if it's catching up on everything. Yeah, on that note, I ought to try and improve my speech over time. I used to speak very fast. I used to mumble a lot, and so now I become more mindful of it, hopefully during covid. You know, during covid, a lot of podcasts started coming out, and I had my own actually, so I would, like brought myself back. I would look at this recording, and I would see what kind of mistakes I'm making. So I'm not sure if transcription pick up everything I'm saying, but I do try and improve myself, just like the next chapter of my life where I'm trying to improve my speech, my enunciation Michael Hingson  22:16 Well, and that's why I was was asking, it must be a great help to you to be able to look at your speaking through the eyes of the Translate. Well, not translation, but through the eyes of the speech program, so you're able to see what it's doing. And as you said, you can use it to practice. You can use it to improve your speech. Probably it is true that slowing down speech helps the system understand it better as well. Yeah, yeah. So that makes sense. Well, when you were growing up, your parents clearly were very supportive. Did they really encourage you to do whatever you wanted to do? Do they have any preconceived notions of what kind of work you should do when you grew up? Or do they really leave it to you and and say we're going to support you with whatever you do? Mobeen Ansari  23:21 Oh, they were supportive. And whatever I wanted to do, they were very supportive in what my brother had gone to do I had to enter brothers. So they were engineers. And you know what my my parents were always, always, you know, very encouraging of whatever period we wanted to follow. So I get the a lot of credit goes to my my parents, also, because they even put their very distinct fields. They actually had a great understanding of arts and photography, especially my dad, and that really helped me have conversations. You know, when I was younger to have a better understanding of art. You know, because my grandmother used to paint a lot, and because she did photography. When she migrated from India to Pakistan in 1947 she took, like, really, really powerful pictures. And I think that instilled a lot of this in me as well. I've had a great support that way. Michael Hingson  24:26 Yeah, so your grandmother helps as well. Mobeen Ansari  24:32 Oh yeah, oh yeah. She did very, very ahead of her time. She's very cool, and she made really large scale painting. So she was an example of always making the best of life, no matter where you are, no matter how old you are. She actually practiced a Kibana in the 80s. So that was pretty cool. So, you know. Yeah, she played a major part in my life. Michael Hingson  25:05 When did you start learning English? Because that I won't say it was a harder challenge for you. Was a different challenge, but clearly, I assume you learned originally Pakistani and so on. But how did you go about learning English? Mobeen Ansari  25:23 Oh, so I learned about the languages when I started speech. So I mean to be split the languages of Urdu. You are, be you. So I started learning about my mother tongue and English at the same time. You know, basically both languages at work to both ran in parallel, but other today, I have to speak a bit of Italian and a few other regional languages of Pakistan so and in my school. I don't know why, but we had French as a subject, but now I've completely forgotten French at Yeah, this kind of, it kind of helped a lot. It's pretty cool, very interesting. But yeah, I mean, I love to speak English. Just when I learned speech, what Michael Hingson  26:19 did you major in when you went to college? Mobeen Ansari  26:24 So I majored in painting. I went to National College of Arts, and I did my bachelor's in fine arts, and I did my majors in painting, and I did my minor in printmaking and sculpture. So my background was always rooted in fine arts. Photography was something that ran in parallel until I decided that photography was the ultimate medium that I absolutely love doing that became kind of the voice of my heart or a medium of oppression and tougher and bone today for Michael Hingson  27:11 did they even have a major in photography when you went to college? Mobeen Ansari  27:17 No, photography was something that I learned, you know, as a hobby, because I learned that during school, and I was self taught. One of my uncles is a globally renowned photographer. So he also taught me, you know, the art of lighting. He also taught me on how to interact with people, on how to set up appointments. He taught me so many things. So you could say that being a painter helped me become a better photographer. Being a photographer helped me become a better painter. So both went hand in hand report co existed. Yeah, so photography is something that I don't exactly have a degree in, but something that I learned because I'm more of an art photographer. I'm more of an artist than I am a photographer, Michael Hingson  28:17 okay, but you're using photography as kind of the main vehicle to display or project your art, absolutely. Mobeen Ansari  28:30 So what I try to do is I still try to incorporate painting into my photography, meaning I try to use the kind of lighting that you see in painting all of these subtle colors that Rembrandt of Caravaggio use, so I tried to sort of incorporate that. And anytime I press my photograph, I don't print it on paper, I print it on canvas. There's a paint really element to it, so so that my photo don't come up as a challenge, or just photos bottles or commercial in nature, but that they look like painting. And I think I have probably achieved that to a degree, because a lot of people asked me, Do you know, like, Okay, how much I did painting for and create painting. So I think you know, whatever my objective was, I think I'm probably just, you know, I'm getting there. Probably that's what my aim is. So you have a photography my main objective with the main voice that I use, and it has helped me tell stories of my homeland. It has helped me to tell stories of my life. It has helped me tell stories of people around Michael Hingson  29:49 me, but you're but what you do is as I understand you, you're, you may take pictures. You may capture the images. With a camera, but then you put them on canvas. Mobeen Ansari  30:05 Yeah, I just every time I have an exhibition or a display pictures which are present in my room right now, I always print them on Canvas, because when you print them on Canvas, the colors become more richer, right, Michael Hingson  30:22 more mentally. But what? But what you're doing, but what you're putting on Canvas are the pictures that you've taken with your camera. Mobeen Ansari  30:31 Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. But occasionally, occasionally, I tried to do something like I would print my photos on Canvas, and then I would try to paint on them. It's something that I've been experimenting with, but I'm not directly quite there yet. Conceptually, let's see in the future when these two things make properly. But now photographs? Michael Hingson  31:02 Yeah, it's a big challenge. I i can imagine that it would be a challenge to try to be able to print them on cameras and then canvas, and then do some painting, because it is two different media, but in a sense, but it will be interesting to see if you're able to be successful with that in the future. What would you say? It's easier today, though, to to print your pictures on Canvas, because you're able to do it from digital photographs, as opposed to what you must have needed to do, oh, 20 years ago and so on, where you had film and you had negatives and so on, and printing them like you do today was a whole different thing to do. Mobeen Ansari  31:50 Oh yeah, it's same to think good yesterday, somebody asked me if I do photography on an analog camera, and I have a lot of them, like lots and lots of them, I still have a lot of black and white film, but the problem is, nobody could develop them. I don't have that room. So otherwise I would do that very often. Otherwise I have a few functional cameras that tend to it. I'm consciously just thinking of reviving that. Let's see what happens to it. So I think it's become very difficult. You know also, because Pakistan has a small community of photographers, so the last person who everybody would go to for developing the film or making sure that the analog cameras became functional. He unfortunately passed away a few years ago, so I'm sort of trying to find somebody who can help me do this. It's a very fascinating process, but I haven't done any analog film camera photography for the last 15 years now, definitely a different ball game with, you know, typical cameras, yeah, the pattern, you could just take 36 pictures, and today you can just, you know, take 300 and do all sorts of trial and error. But I tried, you know, I think I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to photography, so I kind of try and make sure that I get the shots at the very first photograph, you know, because that's how my dad trained me on analog cameras, because back then, you couldn't see how the pictures are going to turn out until you printed them. So every time my dad took a picture, he would spend maybe two or three minutes on the setting, and he would really make the person in front of him wait a long time. And then you need to work on shutter speed or the aperture or the ISO, and once you would take that picture is perfect, no need to anything to it, Michael Hingson  34:09 but, but transposing it, but, but transferring it to from an analog picture back then to Canvas must have been a lot more of a challenge than it is today. Mobeen Ansari  34:24 No back then, working canvas printing. Canvas printing was something that I guess I just started discovering from 2014 onwards. So it would like during that this is laid up, Michael Hingson  34:38 but you were still able to do it because you just substituted Canvas for the the typical photographic paper that you normally would use is what I hear you say, Mobeen Ansari  34:50 Oh yeah, Canvas printing was something that I figured out much later on, right? Michael Hingson  34:59 Um. But you were still able to do it with some analog pictures until digital cameras really came into existence. Or did you always use it with a digital camera? Mobeen Ansari  35:11 So I basically, when I started off, I started with the handle camera. And obviously, you know, back in the 90s, if somebody asked you to take a picture, or we have to take a picture of something, you just had the analog camera at hand. Yeah. And my grandparents, my dad, they all had, you know, analog cameras. Some of it, I still have it Michael Hingson  35:36 with me, but were you able to do canvas painting from the analog cameras? No, yeah, that's what I was wondering. Mobeen Ansari  35:43 No, I haven't tried, yeah, but I think must have been possible, but I've only tried Canvas printing in the digital real. Michael Hingson  35:53 Do you are you finding other people do the same thing? Are there? Are there a number of people that do canvas painting? Mobeen Ansari  36:02 I lot of them do. I think it's not very common because it's very expensive to print it on canvas. Yeah, because you know, once you once you test again, but you don't know how it's going to turn out. A lot of images, they turn out very rough. The pictures trade, and if can, with print, expose to the camera, sometimes, sorry, the canvas print exposed to the sun, then there's the risk of a lot of fading that can happen. So there's a lot of risk involved. Obviously, printing is a lot better now. It can withstand exposure to heat and sun, but Canvas printing is not as common as you know, matte paper printing, non reflective, matte paper. Some photographers do. It depends on what kind of images you want to get out? Yeah, what's your budget is, and what kind of field you're hoping to get out of it. My aim is very specific, because I aim to make it very Painterly. That's my objective with the canvas. Michael Hingson  37:17 Yeah, you want them to look like paintings? Mobeen Ansari  37:21 Yeah? Yeah, absolutely, Michael Hingson  37:23 which, which? I understand it's, it is a fascinating thing. I hadn't really heard of the whole idea of canvas painting with photograph or photography before, but it sounds really fascinating to to have that Yeah, and it makes you a unique kind of person when you do that, but if it works, and you're able to make it work, that's really a pretty cool thing to do. So you have you you've done both painting and photography and well, and sculpting as well. What made you really decide, what was the turning point that made you decide to to go to photography is kind of your main way of capturing images. Mobeen Ansari  38:12 So it was with high school, because I was still studying, you know, art as a subject back then, but I was still consistently doing that. And then, like earlier, I mentioned to you that my school gave me an award called pictorial historian. That is what inspired me to follow this girl. That is what set me on this path. That is what made me find this whole purpose of capturing history. You know, Pakistan is home to a lot of rich cultures, rich landscapes, incredible heritage sites. And I think that's when I became fascinated. Because, you know, so many Pakistanis have these incredible stories of resilience entrepreneurship, and they have incredible faces, and, you know, so I guess that what made me want to capture it really. So I think, yeah, it was in high school, and then eventually in college, because, you know, port and school and college, I would be asked to take pictures of events. I'll be asked to take pictures of things around me. Where I went to college, it was surrounded by all kinds of, you know, old temples and churches and old houses and very old streets. So that, really, you know, always kept me inspired. So I get over time. I think it's just always been there in my heart. I decided to really, really go for it during college. Well. Michael Hingson  40:00 But you've, you've done pretty well with it. Needless to say, which is, which is really exciting and which is certainly very rewarding. Have you? Have you done any pictures that have really been famous, that that people regard as exceptionally well done? Mobeen Ansari  40:22 I Yes, obviously, that's it for the audience to decide. But right, I understand, yeah, I mean, but judging from my path exhibitions, and judging from system media, there have been quite a few, including the monitor out of just last week, I went to this abandoned railway station, which was on a British colonial time, abandoned now, but that became a very, very successful photograph. I was pretty surprised to see the feedback. But yes, in my career, they have been about, maybe about 10 to 15 picture that really, really stood out or transcended barriers. Because coming out is about transcending barriers. Art is about transcending barriers, whether it is cultural or political, anything right if a person entered a part of the world views a portrait that I've taken in Pakistan, and define the connection with the subject. My mission is accomplished, because that's what I would love to do through art, to connect the world through art, through art and in the absence of verbal communication. I would like for this to be a visual communication to show where I'm coming from, or the very interesting people that I beat. And that is that sort of what I do. So I guess you know, there have been some portraits. I've taken some landscapes or some heritage sites, and including the subjects that I have photography of my book that acting have probably stood out in mind of people. Michael Hingson  42:14 So you have published three books so far, right? Yes, but tell me about your books, if you would. Mobeen Ansari  42:24 So my first book is called Harkin. I will just hold it up for the camera. It is my first book, and what is it called? It is called turken, and the book is about iconic people of Pakistan who have impacted this history, be it philanthropist, be it sports people, be it people in music or in performing arts, or be it Even people who are sanitation workers or electricians to it's about people who who have impacted the country, whether they are famous or not, but who I consider to be icons. Some of them are really, really, really famous, very well known people around the world, you know, obviously based in Pakistan. So my book is about chronicling them. It's about documenting them. It's about celebrating them. My second book without, okay, most Michael Hingson  43:29 people are going to listen to the podcast anyway, but go ahead. Yeah. Mobeen Ansari  43:35 So basically it's writing the flag is about the religious minorities of Pakistan, because, you know, Pakistan is largely a Muslim country. But when people around the world, they look at Pakistan, they don't realize that it's a multicultural society. There's so many religions. Pakistan is home to a lot of ancient civilizations, a lot of religions that are there. And so this book document life and festivities of religious minorities of Pakistan. You know, like I in my childhood, have actually attended Easter mass, Christmas and all of these festivities, because my father's best friend was a Christian. So we had that exposure to, you know, different faiths, how people practice them. So I wanted to document that. That's my second book. Michael Hingson  44:39 It's wonderful that you had, it's wonderful that you had parents that were willing to not only experience but share experiences with you about different cultures, different people, so that it gave you a broader view of society, which is really cool. Mobeen Ansari  44:58 Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. So your third book? So my third book is a sequel to my first one, same topic, people who have impacted the country. And you know, with the Pakistan has a huge, huge population, it had no shortage of heroes and heroines and people who have created history in the country. So my first book has 98 people, obviously, which is not enough to feature everybody. So my second book, it features 115 people. So it features people who are not in the first book. Michael Hingson  45:41 Your third book? Yeah, okay, yeah. Well, there's, you know, I appreciate that there's a very rich culture, and I'm really glad that you're, you're making Chronicles or or records of all of that. Is there a fourth book coming? Have you started working on a fourth book yet? Mobeen Ansari  46:05 You know in fact, yes, there is. Whenever people hear about my book, they assume that there's going to be landscape or portraits or street photography or something that is more anthropological in nature. That's the photography I truly enjoy doing. These are the photographs that are displayed in my studio right now. So, but I would never really study for it, because Pakistan had, you know, we have poor provinces. And when I started these books, I hadn't really documented everything. You know, I come from the urban city, and, you know, I just, just only take taking pictures in main cities at that time. But now I have taken pictures everywhere. I've been literally to every nook and cranny in the country. So now I have a better understanding, a better visual representation. So a fourth book, it may be down the line, maybe five years, 10 years, I don't know yet. Michael Hingson  47:13 Well, one thing that I know you're interested in, that you've, you've at least thought about, is the whole idea behind climate change and the environment. And I know you've done some work to travel and document climate change and the environment and so on. Tell us, tell us more about that and where that might be going. Mobeen Ansari  47:36 So on tape, note, Michael, you know there's a lot of flooding going on in Pakistan. You know, in just one day, almost 314 people died, but many others you had missing. You had some of the worst flooding test time round. And to be reeling from that, and we had some major flooding some teachers back in. Well, climate change is no longer a wake up call. We had to take action years ago, if not, you know, yesterday and till right now, we are seeing effects of it. And you know, Pakistan has a lot of high mountain peaks. It has, it is home to the second highest mountain in the world, Ketu, and it has a lot of glaciers. You know, people talk about melting polar ice caps. People talk about effects of climate change around the world, but I think it had to be seen everywhere. So in Pakistan, especially, climate change is really, really rearing space. So I have traveled to the north to capture melting glacier, to capture stories of how it affects different communities, the water supply and the agriculture. So that is what I'm trying to do. And if I take pictures of a desert down south where a sand dune is spreading over agricultural land that it wasn't doing up until seven months ago. So you know climate change is it's everywhere. Right now, we are experiencing rains every day. It's been the longest monsoon. So it has also affected the way of life. It has also affected ancient heritage sites. Some of these heritage sites, which are over 3000 years old, and they have bestowed, you know, so much, but they are not able to withstand what we are facing right now. Um, and unfortunately, you know, with unregulated construction, with carbon emissions here and around the world, where deforestation, I felt that there was a strong need to document these places, to bring awareness of what is happening to bring awareness to what we would lose if we don't look after mother nature, that the work I have been doing on climate change, as well as topics of global health and migration, so those two topics are also very close To My Heart. Michael Hingson  50:40 Have you done any traveling outside Pakistan? Mobeen Ansari  50:45 Oh, yeah. I mean, I've been traveling abroad since I was very little. I have exhibited in Italy, in the United States. I was just in the US debris. My brother lives in Dallas, so, yeah, I keep traveling because, because my workshop, because of my book events, or my exhibition, usually here and around the world. Michael Hingson  51:14 Have you done any photography work here in the United States? Mobeen Ansari  51:19 Yeah, I have, I mean, in the US, I just don't directly do photography, but I do workshop, because whatever tool that I captured from Pakistan, I do it there. Okay, funny thing is, a funny thing is that, you know, when you take so many pictures in Pakistan, you become so used to rustic beauty and a very specific kind of beauty that you have a hard time capturing what's outside. But I've always, always just enjoyed taking pictures in in Mexico and Netherlands, in Italy, in India, because they that rustic beauty. But for the first time, you know, I actually spent some time on photography. This year, I went to Chicago, and I was able to take pictures of Chicago landscape, Chicago cityscape, completely. You know, Snowden, that was a pretty cool kind of palette to work with. Got to take some night pictures with everything Snowden, traveling Chicago, downtown. So yeah, sometimes I do photography in the US, but I'm mostly there to do workshops or exhibitions or meet my brothers. Michael Hingson  52:34 What is your your work process? In other words, how do you decide what ideas for you are worthwhile pursuing and and recording and chronicling. Mobeen Ansari  52:46 So I think it depends on where their story, where there is a lot of uniqueness, that is what stands out to me, and obviously beauty there. But they have to be there. They have to be some uniqueness, you know, like, if you look at one of the pictures behind me, this is a person who used to run a library that had been there since 1933 his father, he had this really, really cool library. And you know, to that guy would always maintain it, that library would have, you know, three old books, you know, a philosophy of religion, of theology, and there was even a handwritten, 600 years old copy of the Quran with his religious book for Muslims. So, you know, I found these stories very interesting. So I found it interesting because he was so passionate about literature, and his library was pretty cool. So that's something that you don't get to see. So I love seeing where there is a soul, where there is a connection. I love taking pictures of indigenous communities, and obviously, you know, landscapes as well. Okay? Also, you know, when it comes to climate change, when it comes to migration, when it comes to global health, that's what I take picture to raise awareness. Michael Hingson  54:33 Yeah, and your job is to raise awareness. Mobeen Ansari  54:41 So that's what I try to do, if I'm well informed about it, or if I feel that is something that needed a light to be shown on it, that's what I do. Took my photograph, and also, you know. Whatever had this appeal, whatever has a beauty, whatever has a story that's in spur of the moment. Sometimes it determined beforehand, like this year, particularly, it particularly helped me understand how to pick my subject. Even though I've been doing this for 22 years, this year, I did not do as much photography as I normally do, and I'm very, very picky about it. Like last week I went to this abandoned railway station. I decided to capture it because it's very fascinating. It's no longer used, but the local residents of that area, they still use it. And if you look at it, it kind of almost looks like it's almost science fiction film. So, you know, I'm a big star. Was that Big Star Trek fan? So, yes, I'm in port the camps. So I also like something that had these elements of fantasy to it. So my work, it can be all over the place, sometimes, Michael Hingson  56:09 well, as a as a speaker, it's, it's clearly very important to you to share your own personal journey and your own experiences. Why is that? Why do you want to share what you do with others? Mobeen Ansari  56:28 So earlier, I mentioned to you that John Tracy center played a major, major role in my life. He helped my mother. They provided all the materials. You know, in late 80s, early 90s, and so I will tell you what happened. So my aunt, my mom's sister, she used to live in the US, and when my hearing loss were diagnosed, my mother jumped right into action. I mean, both my parents did. So my mother, she landed in New York, and to my aunt would live in New Jersey. So every day she would go to New York, and she landed in New York League of hard of hearing. And a lady over there asked my mom, do you want your child to speak, or do you want him to learn? Frank Lacher and my mother, without any hesitation, she said, I want my child to speak and to see what put in touch with John Troy center and rest with history, and they provided with everything that needed. So I am affiliated with the center as an alumni. And whenever I'm with the US, whenever I'm in LA, I visit the center to see how I can support parents of those with hearing loss, and I remember when I went in 2016 2018 I gave a little talk to the parents of those with hair in glass. And I got to two other place as well, where I spent my childhood joint. Every time I went there, I saw the same fears. I saw the same determination in parents of those with hearing loss, as I saw in my parents eyes. And by the end of my talk, they came up to me, and they would tell me, you know, that sharing my experiences helped them. It motivated them. It helped them not be discouraged, because having a child hearing loss is not easy. And you know, like there was this lady from Ecuador, and you know, she spoke in Spanish, and she see other translators, you know, tell me this, so to be able to reach out with those stories, to be able to provide encouragement and any little guidance, or whatever little knowledge I have from my experience, it gave me this purpose. And a lot of people, I think, you know, you feel less lonely in this you feel hurt, you feel seen. And when you share experiences, then you have sort of a blueprint how you want to navigate in one small thing can help the other person. That's fantastic. That's why I share my personal experiences, not just to help those with hearing loss, but with any challenge. Because you know when you. Have a challenge when you have, you know, when a person is differently able, so it's a whole community in itself. You know, we lift each other up, and if one story can help do that, because, you know, like for me, my parents told me, never let your hearing loss be seen as a disability. Never let it be seen as a weakness, but let it be seen as a challenge that makes you stronger and that will aspire to do be it when I get it lost all of my life, be it when I had the latest or many years, or anything. So I want to be able to become stronger from to share my experiences with it. And that is why I feel it's important to share the story. Michael Hingson  1:00:56 And I think that's absolutely appropriate, and that's absolutely right. Do you have a family of your own? Are you married? Do you have any children or anything? Not yet. Not yet. You're still working on that, huh? Mobeen Ansari  1:01:10 Well, so to say, Yeah, I've just been married to my work for way too long. Michael Hingson  1:01:16 Oh, there you are. There's nothing wrong with that. You've got something that you Mobeen Ansari  1:01:22 kind of get batting after a while, yeah. Michael Hingson  1:01:26 Well, if the time, if the right person comes along, then it, then that will happen. But meanwhile, you're, you're doing a lot of good work, and I really appreciate it. And I hope everyone who listens and watches this podcast appreciates it as well. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Mobeen Ansari  1:01:45 They can send me an email, which is out there for everybody on my website. I'm on all my social media as well. My email is being.ansarima.com Michael Hingson  1:01:57 so can you spell that? Can you Yeah, M, o b e n, dot a do it once more, M O B, E N, Mobeen Ansari  1:02:07 M O B, double, e n, dot, a n, S, A R, i@gmail.com Michael Hingson  1:02:17 at gmail.com, okay, and your website is.com Mobeen Ansari  1:02:26 same as my name. Michael Hingson  1:02:27 So, okay, so it's mo bean.ansari@our.www.mo Michael Hingson  1:02:35 bean dot Ansari, or just mo Bean on, sorry, Mobeen Ansari  1:02:41 just moving on, sorry. We com, no.no. Michael Hingson  1:02:44 Dot between mobien and Ansari, okay, so it's www, dot mobile being on sorry, yeah, so it's www, dot, M, O, B, E, N, A, N, S, A, R, i.com Yes. Well, great. I have absolutely enjoyed you being with us today. I really appreciate your time and your insights, and I value a lot what you do. I think you represent so many things so well. So thank you for being here with us, and I want to thank all of you who are out there listening and watching the podcast today, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please email me at Michael H, i@accessibe.com that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and we appreciate it if you would give us a five star rating wherever you are observing the podcast. Please do that. We value that a great deal. And if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest, please let me know. We're always looking for people and mobeen you as well. If you know anyone else who you think ought to be a guest on the podcast, I would appreciate it if you would introduce us. But for now, I just want to thank you one more time for being here. This has been absolutely wonderful. Thank you for being on the podcast with us today. Mobeen Ansari  1:04:08 Thank you so much. It's been wonderful, and thank you for giving me the platform to share my stories. And I hope that it helps whoever watching this. Up to date. Michael Hingson  1:04:26 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Bert Rürup und Michael Hüther analysieren die Folgen einer zweiten Trump-Präsidentschaft und diskutieren, wie Europa wirtschaftlich und sicherheitspolitisch unabhängiger werden kann.

What struck me most in my conversation with author Jennifer Shaw is how often we underestimate the power of understanding our own story. Jennifer grew up sensing she was different, yet never had the words for why. Hearing her share how a late diagnosis of autism and ADHD finally helped her trust her own voice reminded me how important it is for all of us to feel seen. As she talked about raising two autistic sons, finding healing through writing, and learning to drop the shame she carried for so long, I found myself thinking about the many people who still hide their struggles because they don't want to be judged. I believe listeners will connect deeply with Jennifer's honesty. She shows that creativity can grow out of the very things we once thought were flaws, and that resilience is something we build each time we choose to show up as ourselves. This episode reminded me why I created Unstoppable Mindset: to hold space for stories like hers—stories that help us see difference as strength and encourage us to build a world where every person is valued for who they truly are. Highlights: 01:33 – See how early misunderstandings can shape the way someone learns to navigate people and communication.06:53 – Learn how masking and observation influence the way neurodivergent adults move through the world.11:21 – Explore how parenting experiences can open the door to understanding your own identity.12:20 – Hear how finally naming a lifelong pattern can shift shame into clarity and self-trust.20:46 – Understand why self-doubt becomes a major barrier and how stepping forward can change that story.25:57 – Discover how personal journeys can naturally weave themselves into creative work and character building.29:01 – Gain insight into why creative careers grow through endurance rather than rapid wins.30:55 – Learn how creative practices can act as grounding tools when life becomes overwhelming.33:20 – Explore how willpower and environment work together in building real resilience.40:23 – See how focusing only on limitations can keep society from recognizing real strengths.45:27 – Consider how acceptance over “fixing” creates more space for people to thrive.46:53 – Hear why embracing difference can open a more confident and creative way of living.51:07 – Learn how limiting beliefs can restrict creativity and how widening your lens can unlock growth.59:38 – Explore how curiosity and lived experience fuel a deeper creative imagination. About the Guest: J. M. Shaw lives in Alberta, Canada, with her husband and two young children. She has been writing for most of her life, though it took years to find the courage to share her stories. What began as a childhood hobby evolved into a passion that, at times, borders on obsession—and is decidedly cheaper than therapy. Though initially interested in teaching and psychology, Shaw ultimately graduated and worked as an X-ray technologist—all the while continuing to write in secret. Through it all, storytelling remained her constant: a sanctuary, a compass, and a way to make sense of the chaos. Her early work filled journals and notebooks, then spilled into typewritten manuscripts and laptop hard drives—worlds crafted from raw imagination and quiet observation. A pivotal turning point came in 2019, when Shaw was diagnosed with autism and ADHD. The news brought clarity to a lifetime of feeling “too much” or “too different.” She realized that her intense focus, emotional depth, and ability to live inside fictional worlds weren't flaws—they were the gifts of a neurodivergent mind. Her unique insights allow her to create characters with emotional realism, while her mythical creatures, societies, and belief systems draw inspiration from both history and modern culture. In many ways, her fantasy series mirrors her own arc: navigating society through the lens of autism, embracing her differences, and discovering where she belongs. Shaw's fiction blends magic with meaning, often exploring themes of identity, resilience, and redemption. Though her worlds are fantastical, her stories remain grounded in human truths. Her characters—flawed, searching, and sometimes broken—feel eerily real. Literary influences like Stephen King, Margaret Atwood, and Dean Koontz helped shape her genre-bending style, while her mother—an English major and blunt-but-honest critic—instilled in her a love of classic literature and the drive to become a better storyteller. In 2021, Shaw released The Ascension, the first book in her fantasy-adventure series, The Callum Walker Series. Since then, she's published three sequels, with dozens of short stories, poems, and manuscripts still in her vault. Though painfully introverted, she attends book signings and author talks to connect with readers—shedding ecstatic tears as they share how deeply her work resonates with them. While these moments can be overwhelming, they remind her why she writes: to create stories that matter. Currently, Shaw is working on the fifth installment of The Callum Walker Series, expanding the emotional arcs and raising the stakes in her imagined realms. Alongside it, she is developing a new dystopian-adventure that blends inequality, rebellion, love, and moral complexity. Whether indie or traditionally published, her dream remains the same: to see her books in bookstores across the world and to keep building worlds for those who need them most. Ways to connect with Jennifer**:** Website: www.jmshawauthor.com Facebook: jmshawauthor Instagram: @jmshaw_author About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And we put it that way, because a lot of diversity people never address the issue of or include people with disabilities in their world, and some of us confront that, and I specifically take the approach you either are inclusive or you're not. There's no partial inclusion. So we put inclusion at the first part of unstoppable mindset, then diversity and the unexpected, which is everything that doesn't have anything to do with inclusion or diversity, which is most things, but it makes it kind of fun anyway, and we're glad that you're here, wherever you happen to be listening or watching, the Podcast. Today, we get to chat with Jennifer Shaw. Jennifer is an author, and she's been a a closet writer part of her life, but but she came out of the closet and has been publishing, which is cool, and she has a lot of other stories to tell, unstoppable in a lot of different ways. So I'm sure we're going to have a lot of fun talking today, and I hope that you learn some interesting and relevant concepts to your world. So Jennifer, thanks for being here and for being on unstoppable mindset. We really appreciate you coming. Jennifer Shaw  02:36 Thank you so much for having me. Well, Michael Hingson  02:38 why don't we start at the beginning, and why don't you tell us about kind of the early Jennifer, early Jennifer, Jennifer Shaw  02:44 so I was very much of an introvert, very shy. I didn't really know how to talk to people. Kind of was trying to figure things out, and was having, was having a hard time figuring things out, and became more of a misfit. And I needed a way of dealing with, you know, my misunderstandings. I came became very much a people watcher, and for a while, that worked, but I needed an outlet in order to be able to analyze and sort out my ideas. And then my mom bought me a typewriter because, you know, I'm that old. And I started, I know about typewriters? Yeah, and I started writing as a hobby, and then it became a passion and obsession. Now it's just cheaper than therapy. And in 2019 I was diagnosed with autism and ADHD, which makes total sense, looking back at all the things that I used to do and the way I felt, it makes sense now, and I thought I never shared any of my stories, but I've been writing by that point for over 30 years. And I thought, well, maybe writing is my special interest. And I got brave, and I sent off my first book in my series. It's now published because I just finished that one at the time to an editor, and I'm thinking, well, the worst they can say is it sucks. And my editor came back and said, This doesn't suck. You should publish. So two years later, I did Michael Hingson  04:05 cool well. So of course, one of the big questions, one of the most important ones of the whole day, is, do you still have the typewriter? No, yeah, I know. I don't know what happened to mine either. It is. It has gone away somewhere. Jennifer Shaw  04:19 Mine was really cool. It was a plug in electrical one had a white out strip and everything. I gave a presentation for grade five classroom, and I told them, I got started on a typewriter, and then I was going into how I got published, and different aspects of fiction writing and and plots and character development, that stuff and that, after an hour and a half, the only questions they had to ask was, what's a typewriter? Michael Hingson  04:43 Typewriter, of course, if you really want to delve into history and be fascinating to learn the history of the typewriter, do you know it? Jennifer Shaw  04:51 No, I do not. Michael Hingson  04:53 So the among other things, one of the first ways a typewriter was developed and used was. Was a countess in Europe who had a husband who didn't pay much attention to her. So she had a lover, and she wanted to be able to communicate with her lover. She is blind, and so she couldn't just have people write down messages and relay them and all that. So somebody invented this machine where she could actually create messages with a keyboard a typewriter, and then seal them, and she could get her ladies in waiting, or whoever to to give them to her, her lover. That was her way to communicate with with him, without her husband finding out. Yeah, so the ultimate note taker, the ultimate note taker, I learned to type. Well, I started to learn at home, and then between seventh and eighth grade, I took some summer school courses, just cuz it was something to do, and one of them was typing, and I didn't even think about the fact that all the other kids in the class kept complaining because they didn't know what letters they were pushing because there were no labels on the keys, which didn't bother me a bit. And so I typed then, I don't know. I assume it still is required out here, but in the eighth grade, you have to pass a test on the US Constitution, and for me to be able to take the test, they got the test transcribed into Braille, and then I brought my typewriter in and typed the answers. I guess. I don't know why they didn't just have me speak to someone, but I'm glad they did it that way. So it was fine. I'm sure it was a little bit noisy for the other kids in the class, but the typewriter wasn't too noisy. But, yeah, I typed all the answers and went from there. So that was kind of cool, but I don't remember what happened to the typewriter over the years. Jennifer Shaw  06:52 I think it gave way to keyboards and, you know, online writing programs. Michael Hingson  06:58 Yeah, I'm sure that it did, but I don't know what happened to my typewriter nevertheless, but oh well. But yeah, I did, and keyboards and everything else. But having used the typewriter, I already knew how to type, except for learning a few keys. Well, even mine was a manual typewriter. And then there was a Braille typewriter created by IBM. It's called the Model D, and it was like a regular typewriter, except instead of letters on the the keys that went up and struck the paper, it was actually braille characters and it and it struck hard enough that it actually created braille characters on the paper. So that was, that was kind of fun. But, yeah, I'm sure it all just kind of went to keyboards and everything else and and then there were word processors, and now it's just all computers. Jennifer Shaw  07:53 Yep, yep. We're a digital age. Michael Hingson  07:55 Nowadays. We are very much a digital age. So you went to to regular school and all that, yep, Jennifer Shaw  08:04 and I was never like I was it was never noticed that I was struggling because, I mean, for the most part, women tend to mask it. That's why less, fewer women are diagnosed than men. I just internalized it, and I came up with my own strategies to deal with things, and unless you were disruptive to class or you had some sort of learning difficulties and stuff, you never really got any attention. So I just sort of disappeared, because I never struggled in school and I was just the shy one. Yeah, taught myself how to communicate with other kids by taking notes of conversations. I have notebooks where I'm like, okay, so and so said this. This was the answer, okay, there was a smile. So that must be what I need to say when somebody says that. So I developed a script for myself in order to be able to socialize. Michael Hingson  08:55 And that was kind of the way you you masked it, or that was part of masking it. Jennifer Shaw  09:00 That was part of masking it. I spent a lot of time people watching so that I could blend in a lot more, kind of trying to figure it out. I felt like I was an alien dropped off on this planet and that somebody forgot to give me the script. And, you know, I was trying to figure things out as I went. Michael Hingson  09:15 Well, maybe that's actually what happened, and they'll come back and pick you up someday, maybe, but then you can beat up on them because they didn't leave a script. Jennifer Shaw  09:25 Yeah, you guys left me here with no instructions, Michael Hingson  09:27 or you were supposed to create the instructions because they were clueless. There's that possibility, you know, Jennifer Shaw  09:33 maybe I was like, you know, patient X or something, Michael Hingson  09:37 the advanced model, as it were. So you, you went through school, you went through high school, and all that. You went to college. Jennifer Shaw  09:45 I did, yes, yeah, I went through I was going to be a teacher, but they were doing the teacher strike at that time, and that I was doing my observation practicum. And I was like, I don't know if that's something I want to go into. I'm glad I didn't. And. Instead, you know, I mean, I had an interest in psychology, and I took some psychology classes, and loved them. It intrigues me how the mind works. But I ended up going into a trade school I went to in Alberta. It's the, it's called an innate northern Alberta Institute of Technology, and I became an x ray technologist, and I worked in that field for many years. Michael Hingson  10:22 Did you enjoy it? I loved it. I love that I Jennifer Shaw  10:25 didn't have to, you know, like, yes, you have to work in an environment where you got other people there, but you can still work independently and, and I loved that. And I love this. I've always been very much a science math geek, you know, things numbers. I have a propensity for numbers and and then science and math, just, you know, they were fun. Michael Hingson  10:45 Yeah, well, I agree, having a master's degree in physics and I have a secondary teaching credential, so I appreciate what you're saying. It's interesting. I would think also, as an x ray technician, although you had to give people instructions as to where to position themselves and all that. It wasn't something where you had to be very conversationally intensive, necessarily, Jennifer Shaw  11:07 yeah, and I mean, people didn't, you know, I didn't spend a lot of time with each patient, and I was able to mask a lot of my awkwardness and stuff and short short bursts, so nobody really noticed. And, you know, I had fun with the science part of it. And, yeah, it just it was never noticed. Although the social aspects, interacting with co workers and stuff, was bit difficult after, you know, outside of the actual tasks, that was interesting. Michael Hingson  11:38 I have a friend who just recently graduated from school learning to be an x ray technician. And I tease her all the time and tell her, you got to really be careful, though, because those x rays can slip out of your grasp if you're not careful, that you just never know when one's going to try to sneak away. So you better keep an eye on them and slap it when it does. Yeah, go catch them. I sent her an email last week saying, I just heard on the news an x ray escape from your hospital. What are you doing to catch it? They're fun, yeah, but, but you, but you did all of that, and then, so how long were you an x ray technician Jennifer Shaw  12:22 a little over 10 years I retired once my kids were born, Michael Hingson  12:27 okay, you had a more, well, a bigger and probably more important job to do that way, Jennifer Shaw  12:36 yes, and I mean, like at the time, we didn't know that both my boys would be, you Know, diagnosed on the spectrum, both of them have anxiety and ADHD, but I just, I was struggling with with work and being a mom, and it, in all honesty, it was going to cost me more for childcare than it was for me to just stay home. Michael Hingson  13:00 How did your so when they were diagnosed, what did your husband think Jennifer Shaw  13:04 my husband was? He says, okay, okay, I get it. Yeah, I can see those things and stuff like that. And I know when from my perspective, because both my boys went through the ADOS assessment, my thoughts were, those are the things you're looking for, because I've done those my whole life. And then, so, like, my oldest was diagnosed in like, June or July, and I received my diagnosis that September, and then my littlest guy was diagnosed the following year. Michael Hingson  13:29 You went through the assessment, and that's how you discovered it. Yep. So how old were you when they when they found it? Jennifer Shaw  13:35 Oh, I don't know if I want to give ages. I was just under 40. Okay. Michael Hingson  13:40 Well, the reason I asked was, as we talked a little bit about before we actually started the recording, I've had a number of people on the podcast who learned that they were on the spectrum. They were diagnosed later in life. I've talked to people who were 40 and even, I think, one or two above, but it just is fascinating to learn how many people actually were diagnosed later in life. And I know that part of it has to do with the fact that we've just gotten a lot smarter about autism and ADHD and so on, which which helps. So I think that that makes a lot of sense that you can understand why people were diagnosed later in life, and in every case, what people have said is that they're so relieved they have an answer they know, and it makes them feel so much better about themselves. Jennifer Shaw  14:36 Yeah, I know for myself, once I was diagnosed, I've never really kept it a secret. I've, you know, I I've given myself permission to ask questions if I'm confused, and then it opens up the doors for other people, like I will, I will tell them, like some things I don't understand, like I don't understand sarcasm. It's difficult. I can give it I don't understand when somebody is being sarcastic to me, and there's some idioms. And jokes that I that just they weigh over my head, so I'm giving myself permission to ask if I'm confused, because otherwise, how will I know? Michael Hingson  15:11 Yeah, it's it's pretty fascinating, and people deal with it in different ways. It's almost like being dyslexic, the same sort of concept you're dealing with, something where it's totally different and you may not even understand it at first, but so many people who realize they're dyslexic or have dyslexia, find ways to deal with it, and most people never even know, yeah, yeah. Jennifer Shaw  15:39 Well, I mean, I've like, not this year, but within the last couple years, I've been diagnosed with dyslexia as well. And then come to find out that my father had it as well, but he just never mentioned. It just never came up. Michael Hingson  15:51 Yeah, yeah. It's, it's pretty fascinating. But human the human psyche and the human body are very malleable, and we can get creative and deal with a lot of stuff, but I think the most important thing is that you figure out and you learn how to deal with it, and you don't make it something that is a negative in your life. It's the way you are. I've talked many times to people, and of course, it comes from me in part, from the being in the World Trade Center. Don't worry about the thing you can't control. And the fact is that autism is there, you're aware of it, and you deal with it, and maybe the day will come when we can learn to control it, but now at least you know what you're dealing with. And that's the big issue, yeah. Jennifer Shaw  16:39 And I think it like you hit it on the nail on the head, is like, the reason so many adults are being diagnosed is because we know more about it. I distinctly remember somebody asking me shortly after I was diagnosed, and they asked me specifically, oh, what's it like to be autistic? And I was like, I don't know. What's it like to not be. It's all I know. You tell me what it's like to not be, and I can tell you what it's like to be. Says it's not something you can really, yeah, people just can't experience it, I guess. Michael Hingson  17:08 Well, people ask me a lot, what's it like to be blind, and what is it like that you're just live in the dark? Well, I don't live in the dark, and that's something that is so unfortunate that we believe that eyesight is the only game in town, or most people do, and the reality is, blindness isn't about darkness. So I don't see, all right, the problem with most people is they do see, and that doesn't work for them. When suddenly the power goes out and you don't have lights anymore. Why do you distinguish one from the other? It's so unfortunate that we do that, but unfortunately, we collectively haven't taught ourselves to recognize that everyone has gifts, and we need to allow people to to manifest their gifts and not negate them and not demean the people just because they're different than us. Jennifer Shaw  17:56 Yeah, and I know I've had I've had people tell me it's like, oh well, you don't look autistic, and I'm like, I don't know what you would expect me to look like, but I've honestly tried really hard not to think of of the autism and the ADHD. I tried really hard not to look at it as a disability. In my own life, I've looked at it as it's just my brain is wired differently. Yeah, I've explained this to my boys. It's, you know, our minds are always open. We can't filter anything that's coming in. And it's like our computer, you know, our brain, if you imagine our brain as being a computer, we've got every possible tab open trying to perform a million different tasks. We've got music playing here, video playing here. We're trying to search for this file. We can't find anything. And then every now and then, it just becomes very overwhelming, and we get the swirly wheel of death and we have to restart, yeah, but we can multitask like nobody's business until then well, and Michael Hingson  18:45 the reality is, most people can learn to do it, although focusing on one thing at a time is always better anyway, but still, I hear what you're saying. My favorite story is a guy wanted to sell me life insurance when I was in college, and I knew at the time that people who were blind or had other disabilities couldn't buy life insurance because the insurance companies decided that we're a higher risk. It turns out that they weren't making that decision based on any real evidence or data. They just assumed it because that's the way the world was, and eventually that was dealt with by law. But this guy called up one day and he said, I want to sell you life insurance. Well, I thought I'd give him a shot at it, so I invited him over, and he came at three in the afternoon, and I didn't tell him in advance. I was blind, so I go to the door with my guide dog at the time Holland, and I opened the door, and he said, I'm looking for Mike Hinkson. And I said, I'm Mike hingson. You are. I'm Michael Hinkson. What can I do for you? Well, you didn't sound blind on the telephone. And I'm still wondering, what are the heck does that mean? Jennifer Shaw  19:52 Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's just, I think, you know, it's a lack of understanding. And. You know, the inability to put yourself in somebody else's shoes? Michael Hingson  20:03 Well, I think we have the ability, but we just don't, we don't learn how to use it. But you're right. It's all about education. And I think, personally, that all of us are teachers, or should be or can be. And so I choose not to take offense when somebody says you don't sound blind, or makes other kinds of comments. I i may push a little hard, but I can't be angry at them, because I know that it's all about ignorance, and they just don't know, and we as a society don't teach which we should do more of Jennifer Shaw  20:38 Yeah, I know that once I made, you know, like I posted on my, you know, with talk to my friends and stuff about the fact that I have autism and that I just, I'm learning about it myself as well. I've had a lot of people come to me and ask me, it's like, well, what, what? What did you notice? How did you find out? And I think I might be on the spectrum. And there's, you know, and it's amazing how many people came out of the woodwork with queries about, you know, questions. And I was like, This is awesome. I can answer questions and educate, yeah, Michael Hingson  21:09 well, and it's true, and the only way we can really learn and deal with some of the stuff is to have a conversation, and to have conversations with each other and be included in the conversation, and that's where it gets really comfortable, or uncomfortable is that people don't want to include you. Oh, I could end up like that person, or that person just clearly isn't, isn't as capable as I because they're blind or they have autism. Well, that's just not true, yeah, and it's, it's a challenge to deal with. Well, here's a question for you. What do you think is the biggest barrier that that people have or that they impose on themselves, and how do you move past it? Jennifer Shaw  21:52 I think that the biggest barrier that people pose on them, pose on themselves, is doubting whether or not they're worthwhile and and I know I did the lat I did that for many years and and, like I said, it wasn't until I received my diagnosis, I thought maybe, maybe, you know, I won't know unless I try. So I got out of my comfort zone, and I surpassed my doubt, and I tried, and then I come to find out that, okay, I should publish. And I've had some, you know, I've had a lot of fun doing that, and I've seen some success in that as well. Michael Hingson  22:24 One of my favorite quotes goes back to the original Star Wars movie Yoda, who said there is no try, do or do not. Don't try. I think that's absolutely true. Do it. That's why I also totally decided in the past to stop using the word failure, because failure is such an end all inappropriate thing. All right, so something didn't work out. The real question, and most of us don't learn to do it, although some of us are trying to teach them, but the biggest question is, why did this happen? What do I do about it? And we don't learn how to be introspective and analyze ourselves about that, I wrote a book that was published last year called Live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith, and it's all about teaching people from lessons I learned from my dogs about how to control fear and how to really step back when things happen and analyze what you do, what you fear, what you're about and how you deal with it. But there's no such thing as failure. It's just okay. This didn't work out right. Why? Why was I afraid? Or why am I afraid now? And what do I do about it? And we just don't see nearly as much analytical thinking on those kinds of subjects as we should. Jennifer Shaw  23:49 Yeah, wasn't there a quote somewhere? I can't remember who it was. I think was Edison, maybe, that he didn't fail 99 times. He found 99 times how not to do it right, and he just kept going and going and going until we got it right. Yeah. The other Michael Hingson  24:04 one I really like is the quote from Einstein that the definition of insanity is trying the same thing every time and expecting something different to happen. I think Jennifer Shaw  24:12 they said that at my graduation from high school, you'll get what you got, yeah, Michael Hingson  24:19 and you can decide to look for alternatives and look for ways to do it better, but, but it is, I think you're I don't know if it was Edison, but I'm going to assume it was who said that, but I think you're right, and it certainly makes a lot of Jennifer Shaw  24:35 sense, yes, yeah, and I've tried to live by embracing, because I've told this to my kids as well, and I've embraced the idea that, you know, we learn better from our mistakes than we do from the things we did right, Michael Hingson  24:49 although we could learn if we really thought about it, when we do something right and we go back and look at it and say, What could I have done to even make that better? And we usually don't do that well, that worked out well, so I don't have to worry about that. Well, exactly we should, you know, Jennifer Shaw  25:07 2020 looking back and saying, Well, what would we have done if this had happened? We just sort of stop. It's like when you're looking for your keys in your house. Once you find them, you stop looking. You don't keep looking for possible places it could have been. You just stop the journey. Michael Hingson  25:20 Or you don't look at why did I put them there? That's not where I usually put them. Speaker 1  25:26 Yeah, exactly, yeah. So when Michael Hingson  25:30 you discovered that you were on the spectrum, what did your husband think about Jennifer Shaw  25:34 that? He thought it made sense. Um, that Michael Hingson  25:37 explains a lot about you. Jennifer Shaw  25:38 Yeah, a little bit might be on the spectrum as well. He might be ADHD, because he has a lot of the same traits as me. But he says, yeah, it's kind of not worth going and getting it checked out and stuff like that so Michael Hingson  25:54 well, until he he wants to, then that probably makes sense. Jennifer Shaw  25:59 And there's no reason. There's no reason. Yeah, Michael Hingson  26:03 things go well, and that that's the big, important thing. But you look at at life, you look at what's going on, and you look at how you can change, what you need to change, and go forward Exactly. So tell me about your writing. You have, you have been writing a series. What did you do before the series? What was sort of the first things that you wrote that were published? Jennifer Shaw  26:26 That I wrote a short story for in a classroom assignment, my teacher published it. Wrote a couple poems. I had a teacher, a different teacher published those. But this, the series that I've written is kind of my first foray into publishing and stuff. And then just prior to that, it was just writing stories for myself, or writing scenes that came to to mind that I wanted to explore, and a lot of them had to do with characters overcoming adversity, because that's how I felt. That was what was going on in my life, Michael Hingson  26:57 and it was so what's the series about? Jennifer Shaw  27:03 So it's a magic, fantasy action adventure, some supernatural suspense kind of all sprinkled in for good measure, because I get bored of my series is there's our world, our time, coexisting magical realm, but there's a veil that separates us, and we can't see across this veil because we don't have magic. But these creatures that do can and have and they've been the source of inspiration for our fairy tales and Monster stories. And then my main character, a young man by the name of Callum Walker, is born with the ability to use magic. He doesn't know why. He's trying to make the most of it. We do learn why as we go through the series, but he doesn't know. And because he has magic, he's able to cross this veil into this magical realm. And he's learning about this world. He's learning about the beings in it. Adventures ensue, and we follow him through the series, trying to figure out as he's trying to figure out who he is, where he belongs, because he's too magic for here, but to human care and then master these abilities to survive. Michael Hingson  27:56 So has he figured out an answer to the question of why or where? Jennifer Shaw  28:00 Not yet. No answers as we go, but he's learning more. Mostly it's he's learning to accept himself and to start to trust and open up. And, you know, instead of thinking that there must be something wrong with him, and that's why he has these abilities, he starts to think, Okay, well, what can I do with these abilities and stuff? So in a lot of ways, his journey mirrors mine Michael Hingson  28:23 well, and he's asking questions, and as you ask questions, that's the most important thing you're willing to consider and explore, absolutely. So are these self published, or does a publisher publish them? Jennifer Shaw  28:40 I'm indie, published through press company called Maverick first press. Michael Hingson  28:44 Inc, have any of the books been converted to audio? Jennifer Shaw  28:48 Not yet, but I am looking into it. Michael Hingson  28:51 Some of us would like that I do read braille, and I could get a book in electronic form, and I can probably get it converted, but it'll be fun if you do get them into an audio format. I love magic and fantasy, and especially when it isn't too dark and too heavy. I've read Stephen King, but I've gotten away from reading a lot of Stephen King, just because I don't think I need things to be that dark. Although I am very impressed by what he does and how he comes up with these ideas, I'll never know. Jennifer Shaw  29:20 Yeah, I know. I don't think that it's as dark as Stephen King, but it's certainly a little darker and older than Harry Potter series. Michael Hingson  29:26 So, yeah, well, and and Harry Potter has been another one that has been certainly very good and has has encouraged a lot of kids to read. Yes and adults, Jennifer Shaw  29:42 yeah, we don't all have to be middle grade students to enjoy a middle 29:46 grade book, right? Michael Hingson  29:49 Oh, absolutely true. Well, so if you had to give one piece of advice or talk about experiences, to write. Writers who are trying to share, what would you what would you tell them? Jennifer Shaw  30:05 I would say that writing and publishing, it's a marathon. It's not a race. Don't expect immediate success. You have to work for it. But don't give up. You know? I mean, a lot of times we tend to give up too soon, when we don't see results and stuff. But if you give up, you'll never reach the finish line if you continue going, you may, you know, eventually you'll reach the finish line, and maybe not what you expect, but you will reach that finish line if you keep going. Michael Hingson  30:30 Yeah, we we are taught all too often to give up way too early. Well, it didn't work, so obviously it's not the right answer. Well, maybe it was the right answer. Most people aren't. JK Rowling, but at the same time, she went through a lot before she started getting her books published, but they're very creative. Yep, I would, I would still like to see a new series of Harry Potter books. Well, there is a guy who wrote James Potter his son, who's written a series, which is pretty good, but, you know, they're fun, yeah. Jennifer Shaw  31:07 Oh, I mean, that's why we like to read them. We like to imagine, we like to, you know, put ourselves in the shoes of, you know, the superhero. And I think that we all kind of, you know, feel a connection to those unlikely heroes that aren't perfect. And I think that appeals to a lot of people. Michael Hingson  31:27 I think it certainly does. I mean, that's clearly a lot of Harry Potter. He was certainly a kid who was different. Couldn't figure out why, and wasn't always well understood, but he worked at it, and that is something that we all can take a lesson to learn. Speaker 1  31:45 Exactly yes. So Michael Hingson  31:48 given everything that goes on with you, if the world feels overwhelming at some point, what kind of things do you do to ground yourself or or get calm again? Jennifer Shaw  31:59 Well, writing is my self care. It's my outlet. It's therapy. Aside from writing, I I'm getting back into reading because I'm going to book signing events and talks and such, and everybody's recommending, oh, read this book, read this book, and I'm finding some hidden gems out there. So I'm getting back into reading, and that seems to be very relaxing, but I do go. I do have to step away from a lot of people sometimes and just be by myself. And I'll, I'll put my headphones on, and I'll listen to my my track. I guess it's not track anymore. It was Spotify. And I'll just go for a walk for an hour, let my mind wander like a video and see where it leads me, and then come back an hour later, and my husband's like, Oh, where'd you walk? Because, like, I have no idea, but you should hear the adventures I had, yeah, Michael Hingson  32:44 both from what you read and what you thought Jennifer Shaw  32:45 about, yeah, just the things going through my head. What? And then the same thing when I'm writing, I see it as a movie in my head, and I'm just writing down what I see a lot of times, long for the ride. Michael Hingson  32:55 Yeah, your characters are writing it, and you're just there, Jennifer Shaw  32:58 yeah, you know. And when I'm when I'm in the zone. I call those the zone moments. And I won't know what's going to happen until it starts to happen. And I'm writing a sentence, oh, I didn't know that was gonna happen. I want to see where this goes. And it'll take me to somewhere where I'm like, wow, that's an amazing scene. How could I, how did I think of that? Or, on the contrary, it'll take me somewhere and I'll be like, What is wrong with me? I know that came out of my head, but what is wrong with me? So, you know, it's a double edged sword, Michael Hingson  33:26 but write them all down, because you never know where you can use them. Jennifer Shaw  33:29 Oh, absolutely. I don't delete anything. I can just wind and then start again, see where it leads. And it never goes to the same place twice. Michael Hingson  33:37 That's what makes it fun. It's an adventure. I don't know. I think there's an alien presence here somewhere. Jennifer Shaw  33:44 Who knows? Maybe I'm the next step in evolution. Could Michael Hingson  33:47 be or you come from somewhere else. And like I said, they put you down here to figure it out, and they'll come back and get you Jennifer Shaw  33:57 well, but never know. There's so many things we don't understand. You know, Michael Hingson  34:00 well, then that's true, but you know, all you can do is keep working at it and think about it. And you never know when you'll come up, come up with an answer well, or story or another story, right? So keep writing. So clearly, though, you exhibit a lot of resilience in a number of ways. Do you think resilience is something we're born with, or something that we learn, or both. Jennifer Shaw  34:25 I think it's a little of both. You know, maybe we have a stronger determination or willfulness when we're born, but it can also be a part of our environment. You know, we develop things that we want to do. We develop desires and dreams and stuff. And you know the combination of the two, the you know, the willful resolve and the desire to dream and be better. And I think those two combined will drive us towards our our goals. Michael Hingson  34:53 Now are your parents still with us? Yes. So what did they think when. You were diagnosed as being on the spectrum. Jennifer Shaw  35:03 Um, I think my dad was more open to the idea. I don't think my mom believed it, but then she's kind of, she's kind of saying, like, okay, maybe, maybe it's, oddly enough, she was, you know, more open to the idea of me having ADHD than autism. And I just think there was just a lack of understanding. But as time has gone on, I think she sees it, not just in me, but I think she sees aspects of that in herself as well. Michael Hingson  35:28 And in a sense, that's what I was wondering, was that they, they saw you grow up, and in some ways, they had to see what was going on. And I was wondering if, when you got an answer, if that was really something that helped them or that they understood? Jennifer Shaw  35:46 Yeah, I I think so. Although I did internalize a lot of of my understandings and misconceptions about life, I internalized it a lot, and I was the annoying cousins because I just, you know, said the appropriate things at inappropriate times and didn't catch jokes and didn't understand sarcasm and and I was just the oddball one out. But I think now that my mom understands a little bit more about autism and ADHD, she's seeing the signs Michael Hingson  36:13 well, and whether she understood it or not, she had to, certainly, as your mom, see that there was something going on. Well, I don't know my I'm whether she verbalized it or she just changed it out. Jennifer Shaw  36:28 I think she was just, she was working two full time jobs raising five kids on her own. I think that there just wasn't enough time in the day to notice everything. 36:37 Yeah, well, Michael Hingson  36:40 but it's always nice to really get an answer, and you you've accepted this as the answer, and hopefully they will, they will accept it as well. So that's a good thing. Jennifer Shaw  36:54 Whether or not they accept it is up to them. I'm that's their choice. Yeah, yeah. It's their choice. The most important thing is that I'm understanding it. Michael Hingson  37:04 Yeah, well, and then helps you move forward. Which is, which is a good thing? Yes. So do you think that vulnerability is part of resilience? Jennifer Shaw  37:18 I think it's important to understand where we're vulnerable. It's like accepting your weaknesses. We all want to improve. We don't want to stay weak and vulnerable, but the only way to improve is to accept those and to understand those and to identify those so that we know where to improve. So I think that it is important. Michael Hingson  37:38 I think it's crucial that we continue to work on our own ideas and attitudes and selves to be able to to move forward. And you're right. I think vulnerability is something that we all exhibit in one way or another, and when we do is that a bad thing? No, I don't think it should be. I think there are some people who think they're invulnerable to everything, and the reality is they're not Jennifer Shaw  38:09 those narcissists. Yeah, Michael Hingson  38:11 was getting there, but that's and that's exactly the problem. Is that they won't deal with issues at all. And so the fact of the matter is that they they cause a lot more difficulty for everyone. Yep, of course, they never think they do, but they do. Yeah. Jennifer Shaw  38:30 I mean, if you don't accept the fact that you're not perfect and that you have weaknesses and vulnerabilities, then you're just it turns into you're just either denying it or you're completely ignorant. How do you Michael Hingson  38:41 balance strength and softness? And because, you know when you're dealing with vulnerability and so on, and it happens, well, how do you, how do you bring all of it to balance? Jennifer Shaw  38:50 Um, it's the yin and yang, right? Um, you know, the strength keeps you going, the softness keeps you open to accepting and learning. Michael Hingson  38:59 Yeah, that makes sense. It gives you the opportunity to to go back and analyze and synthesize whatever you're thinking. Yes. Well, autism is, by the definitions that we face, considered a disability, which is fine, although my belief is that everybody on the planet has a disability, and for most people, as others have heard me say on this podcast, the disability that most people have is their light dependent, and they don't do well if suddenly the lights go out until they can find a smartphone or whatever, because the inventors, 147 years ago created the electric light bulb, which started us on a road of looking for ways to have light on demand whenever we wanted it and whenever we do want it, when that works, until suddenly the light on demand machine isn't directly available to us when light goes away. So I think that light on demand is a lovely thing, but the machines that provide it are. Only covering up a disability that most people have that they don't want to recognize. Jennifer Shaw  40:05 And I'd also argue that the more dependent we become on technology, that the harder it is to adjust to, you know, the way we used to live. If you go to the grocery store, everything's automated. And if the power goes out at the grocery store, nobody knows how to count out change now, yeah, Michael Hingson  40:22 they they cannot calculate on their own. I continue to work to be able to do that. So I like to to figure things out. People are always saying to me, How come you got the answers so quickly of how much change or how much to leave for a tip I practice, yeah, it's not magical. And the reality is, you don't always have a calculator, and a calculator is just one more thing to lug around. So why have it when you can just learn to do it yourself? Yeah? Jennifer Shaw  40:49 Or we have a cell phone which has got everything on it. Michael Hingson  40:52 Oh, I know, yeah, there is that too. But you know, the the thing about all of this is that we all have disabilities, is what I'm basically saying. But if you use disability in sort of the traditional sense, and by that I mean you have certain kinds of conditions that people call a disability, although I will submit absolutely that disability does not mean a lack of ability. But how do societal definitions of disability, kind of affect people more than the actual condition itself, whatever it is. Jennifer Shaw  41:26 I think society as a whole tend to focus on the negatives and the limitations, and if you focus solely on those, then nobody can see beyond those to what a person can do, because there's a whole, you know, there's a whole lot out there that people can do. You can, you can learn to adjust to a lot of things. The brain is very malleable. And, you know, we're not just given one sense for one reason. You know, we have five senses, well, arguably more, depending on who you talk to, yeah, to feel out the world. And same thing with autism is, you know, I mean, I had a hard time those things that would come naturally to people, like socializing, learning to speak, even my son at the playground, he didn't know how to approach kids to ask him to play and but those things can be learned. They just have to spend the time doing it well. Michael Hingson  42:19 And I hear you, do you think that autism is under the definition of disability? Jennifer Shaw  42:26 I think it can be very debilitating. I think that, you know, and then some people suffer more severe. They're more ranges than than I do mine, but I do think that the brain can learn to adjust a lot, maybe not the same as everybody else, and there will be struggles and there will be challenges, and there'll be anxieties and and things is it is, in a way, a disability. It'll never go away. But I don't think it has to be debilitating Michael Hingson  42:59 struggles and anxieties, but everyone experiences that in one way or another, and that's, of course, the point. Why should some of us be singled out? Jennifer Shaw  43:07 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I do know, though, that with there's, I guess we call them an invisible disability, because I don't look autistic, I don't look ADHD, but I struggle inwardly. It's a lot more emotional. It's a lot more mental, you know, analyzing every conversation I've ever had. It's very exhausting and confusing, and it can lead to other things and stuff that, you know, I mean, I don't think everybody else goes around counting license plates obsessively, you know, adding up numbers on license plates and stuff. And if I don't, it can be very anxiety inducing. I don't think everybody else has to, you know, make notebooks worth of conversations to learn to talk to people and watch the world around them, to try to figure out how to act. I think for a lot of people, it comes naturally. And because I had to learn all those things on my own and stuff, it created a lot more anxiety than another person would have in that area, and life is already chaotic enough, you know, more anxiety on top of anxiety and such. Michael Hingson  44:11 Yeah, but some of that we create ourselves and don't need to. And again, it gets back to the fact we all have different gifts, and so some people are much more socially outgoing, so they can do so many more things that seem like everyone should be able to do them. But again, not everyone has the same gifts. Yeah, I think that we need to recognize that. Sorry, go ahead. I was gonna say, Jennifer Shaw  44:34 just like, not everybody has the same weaknesses, right? I learned. I think, you know, if we, if we learned to, you know, share the strengths that we have that might overcome somebody else's weaknesses and stuff. It would be a whole lot better place. Instead of trying to label everybody and segregate everybody based on their limitations, let's, let's look at their strengths and see which ones coordinate. Yeah. Michael Hingson  44:56 How does HD? ADHD manifest itself? Jennifer Shaw  45:00 Yeah, it's some, in a lot of ways, very similar to autism, and that's probably why it's now considered part of the autism spectrum. I have a difficult time focusing on things that I don't find intriguing, like, oh gosh, if I had to read a social studies textbook, I would go stark raving mad and fall asleep. And I've really hard time staying focused. Don't have to read the same paragraph 20 times, but you give me a textbook on physics, and I'm right in there, and I'll hyper focus for like, 12 straight hours, forgetting the world exists and don't eat, don't sleep, don't move, and I will just immerse myself in that. And then there's a difficult time regulating emotions so somebody gets upset about something for the most part. You know, you can calm yourself down and stuff like that. With autism and ADHD, it's really hard to regulate those emotions and come down from that hyper, hyper emotional state down to a normal state. Michael Hingson  46:00 I can see that in a lot of ways, it can look very similar to to autism in terms of the way you're describing it. It makes, makes sense, yeah, which? Which is something one has to deal with. Well, if people stop trying to fix what makes us different? What could we do with the world? How would things be different? Jennifer Shaw  46:22 I think the world be very interesting if we stopped trying to fix people and just started trying to accept people and see how, you know, like, I think that for one we would also be a lot more open to accepting people, but that would have to come first. And I think that would be amazing, because, you know, if we were all the same and we all tried to fit into the same mold, it's going to be a very boring place. Michael Hingson  46:46 The thing that is interesting about what you just said, and the question really is, when we try to fix things, why do we need to fix things? What is it that's really broken? And that's of course, the big issue is that people make assumptions based on just their own experiences, rather than looking at other people and looking at their experiences. Is that really broken? As it goes back to like when I talk about blindness, yeah, am I broken? I don't think so. I do things differently. If I had been able to see growing up, that would have been nice. But you know what? It's not the end of the world not to and it doesn't make me less of a person, and you happen to be on the autism spectrum, that's fine. It would be nice if you didn't have to deal with that, and you could function and deal with things the way most people do. But there are probably advantages, and there's certainly reasons why you are the way you are, why I am the way I am. And so why should that be a bad thing? Jennifer Shaw  47:48 I don't think it is. I mean, other than the fact that I would love to be, you know, not have to suffer with the stress and anxieties that I do, and the insecurities and the doubt and trying to figure out this world and where I belong and stuff, I wouldn't. I like the way my brain works. I like the way I think, you know, very What if, very out of the box, very creative mindsets. And I wouldn't change that for the world. Michael Hingson  48:15 Yeah, and I think people really should be accepted the way they are. Certainly there are people who we classify as geniuses because they do something that we didn't think of, and it catches on, and it's creative. Einstein did it. I mean, for that matter, there's something that that Elon Musk has done that has created this vehicle that no one else created successfully before him. Now I'm not sure that he's the greatest business guy, because I hear that Tesla is not the most profitable company in the world, but that's fine. Or Steve Jobs and Bill Gates created things. Did they do it all? Jennifer Shaw  48:56 Sorry, Sebastian Bach too. Yeah. I mean those prodigies, right? Michael Hingson  49:01 And they didn't do they didn't do everything. I understand that Einstein wasn't the greatest mathematician in the world, but he was great at concepts, and he had other people who who helped with some of the math that he didn't do, but, but the reality is, we all have gifts, and we should be able to use those gifts, and other people should appreciate them and be able to add on to what they do. One thing I always told employees when I hired people, is my job isn't to boss you around because I hired you because you demonstrated enough that you can do the job I want you to do, but my job is not to boss you, but rather to use my skills to help enhance what you do. So what we need to do is to work together to figure out how I can help you be better because of the gifts that I bring that you don't have. Some people got that, and some people didn't. Jennifer Shaw  49:50 Some people are just, they're less, you know, open minded. I think I don't know, like, less accepting of other people and less accepting of differences. And it's unfortunate. Passionate, you know, and that creates a lot of problems that, you know, they can't look beyond differences and to see the beauty behind it. Michael Hingson  50:11 Yeah, and, and the fact of the matter is that, again, we were all on the earth in one way or another, and at some point we're going to have to learn to accept that we're all part of the same world, and working together is a better way to do it. Yeah, absolutely. How do we get there? Jennifer Shaw  50:28 Yeah, I don't know. Maybe idealistic, you know, Star Trek society, or utopian society, you know. And maybe in 100 or 200 years, we'll get there. But if you think about 100 years ago, if you look at us 100 years ago, and then you think of all the technology that we have today, and that's in, like, one century is not a long time, given how long people have been on this planet. And look at all the things we've accomplished, technology wise, and look at all the great things that we have done, you know, and it's just imagine how many more, or how much, how much more we could do if we work together instead of working against each other. Michael Hingson  51:06 Yeah, and that's of course, the issue is that we haven't learned yet to necessarily work together. To some, for some people, that gets back to narcissism, right? They, they're, they're the only ones who know anything. What do you do? But yeah, I hear you, but, but, you know, I think the day is going to come when we're going to truly learn and understand that we're all in this together, and we really need to learn to work together, otherwise it's going to be a real, serious issue. Hopefully that happens sooner than later, Jennifer Shaw  51:39 yes, yeah, I don't think so, but it would be a nice to imagine what it would be like if it happened tomorrow. Michael Hingson  51:47 Yeah, how much potential do you think is lost, not because of limitations, but, but rather because of how we define them? Jennifer Shaw  51:58 I think we use limitations to set our boundaries, but by setting boundaries, we can never see ourselves moving past them, and nor do we try so. I think that setting limitations is hugely detrimental to our growth as as you know, creative minds. Michael Hingson  52:18 I think also though limitations are what we often put on other people, and oftentimes out of fear because somebody is different than us, and we create limitations that that aren't realistic, although we try to pigeonhole people. But the reality is that limitations are are are also representations of our fears and our misconceptions about other people, and it's the whole thing of, don't confuse me with the facts. Jennifer Shaw  52:51 Yes, yeah. And you know there's Yeah, like you said, there's these self limitations, but there's also limitations that we place on other people because we've judged them based on our understanding. Michael Hingson  53:03 Yeah, and we shouldn't do that, because we probably don't really know them very well anyway, but I but I do think that we all define ourselves, and we each define who we are, and that gets back to the whole thing of, don't judge somebody by what they look like or or what you think about them. Judge people by their actions, and give people the opportunity to really work on showing you what they can do. Jennifer Shaw  53:36 Absolutely, that's definitely a motto by which I've tried to live my life. I honestly don't know everybody out there. I mean, I don't think anybody does. And unless somebody gives me a reason or their behavior says otherwise, I'm going to assume that they're, you know, a good person, you know. I mean, if they, you know, if I assume this person is a good person, but maybe they smack me across face or take, you know, steal from me and stuff, then I'm going to judge those behaviors. Michael Hingson  54:02 One of the things that I learned, and we talked about in my book live like a guide dog, is dogs, and I do believe this love unconditionally, unless something really hurts them, so that they just stop loving. But dogs love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. But the difference between dogs and people is again, unless something truly has been traumatic for a dog. Dogs are more open to trust than we are. They don't worry about, well, what's this guy's hidden agenda, or why is this woman the way she is? The fact is that they're open to trust and they're looking to develop trusting relationships, and they also want us to set the rules. They want us to be the pack leaders. I'm sure there are some dogs that that probably are better than the people they're with, but by and large, the dog wants the person to be the pack leader. They want them to tell the dog, what are the rules? So. Every guide dog I've had, it's all about setting boundaries, setting rules, and working with that dog so that we each know what our responsibilities to the relationship are. And I think absolutely dogs can get that just as much as people do. They're looking for us to set the rules, but they want that, and the fact of the matter is that they get it just as much as we do. And if that relationship really develops, the kind of trust that's possible, that's a bond that's second to none, and we should all honor that we could do that with with each other too. Yeah, there are people who have hidden agendas and people that we can learn not to trust because they don't want to earn our trust either. They're in it for themselves. But I don't think that most people are that way. I think that most people really do want to develop relationships. Jennifer Shaw  55:51 Yeah, and another aspect of dogs too, is they're very humble, you know, they they don't, I mean, they probably do have some, you know, some egos, but for the most part, they're very humble, and they don't dwell on the mistakes of their past. They live in the moment. And I love Yeah, no, go ahead. They do absolutely they do Michael Hingson  56:14 one of the things that I learned after September 11, because my contacted the folks at Guide Dogs for the Blind about it, my diet, my guide dog was Roselle, and I said, Do you think this affected her, the whole relationship? And the veterinarian I spoke with, who was the head of veterinary services, the guide dogs asked, did anything directly threaten her? And I said, no, nothing did. He said, Well, there's your answer. The fact is, dogs don't do what if they don't worry about what might have been or even what happened if it didn't affect them? They they do live in the moment when we got home after the events on September 11, I took roselle's harness off and was going to take her outside. She would have none of it. She ran off, grabbed her favorite tug bone and started playing tug of war with our retired guy dog, Lenny. It was over for her. It was done. Jennifer Shaw  57:06 It's finished, the journey's done, and I'm living in this moment now, yeah, Michael Hingson  57:10 different moment. I'm not going to worry about it, and you shouldn't either, which was the lesson to learn from that. Yes, but the reality is that dogs don't do what. If dogs really want to just do what they need to do. They know the rules, like I said. They want to know what you expect, and they will deal with that. And by and large, once you set rules, dogs will live by those rules. And if they don't, you tell them that you didn't do that the right way. You don't do that in a mean way. There are very strong ways of positively telling a dog, yeah, that's not what the right thing was to do. But by the same token, typica

Stories have a way of helping us recognize ourselves, and that's exactly what happened in my conversation with Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond. Nana shares what it was like to grow up in Queens, then suddenly move to a boarding school in Ghana, and how that experience shaped her identity in ways she's still uncovering today. As Nana describes her path from writer to author, her years of persistence, and the curiosity that led to books like Powder Necklace and Blue, I felt a deep connection to her commitment to keep creating even when the process feels uncertain. We also explored trust, partnership, and the lessons my guide dogs have taught me—all ideas that tie into the heart of Nana's storytelling. This conversation is an invitation to see your own life with more clarity, courage, and compassion. Highlights: 00:00:10 – Step into a conversation that explores how stories shape courage and connection. 00:01:41 – See how early environments influence identity and spark deeper questions about belonging. 00:02:55 – Learn how a major cultural shift can expand perspective and redefine personal truth. 00:23:05 – Discover what creative persistence looks like when the path is long and uncertain. 00:27:45 – Understand what distinguishes writing from fully embracing authorship. 00:33:22 – Explore how powerful storytelling draws people into a moment rather than just describing it. 00:46:45 – Follow how curiosity about history can unlock unexpected creative direction. 00:59:31 – Gain insight into why treating a publisher as a partner strengthens both the work and the audience reach. About the Guest: Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond is the author of Powder Necklace: A Novel, the award-winning children's picture book Blue: A History of the Color as Deep as the Sea and as Wide as the Sky, the collection Relations: An Anthology of African and Diaspora Voices, and My Parents' Marriage: A Novel.  Tapped for her passion about Africa's rich fashion traditions and techniques, Brew-Hammond was commissioned by the curators of Brooklyn Museum's "Africa Fashion" exhibit to pen and perform an original poem for the museum's companion short film of the same name. In the clip, she wore a look from the made-in-Ghana lifestyle line she co-founded with her mother and sister, Exit 14. The brand was featured on Vogue.com. Every month, Brew-Hammond co-leads the Redeemed Writers Group whose mission is to write light into the darkness. Learn more about it here.Learn more at nanabrewhammond.com. Ways to connect with Nana**:** Instagram, Facebook and Threads: @nanaekuawriter Twitter: @nanaekua  www.NanaBrewHammond.com  ORDER my new novel   MY PARENTS' MARRIAGE Read 2023 NCTE Award Winner & NAACP Image Award Nominee   BLUE: A History of the Color as Deep as the Sea and as Wide as the Sky   Read RELATIONS: An Anthology of African and Diaspora Voices , stories, essays & poems by new and established Black writers   Shop Exit 14 , all weather, uniquely designed, 100% cotton apparel sustainably made in Ghana About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:20 And a pleasant, Good day to you all, wherever you happen to be, I would like to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to have a conversation with Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond And Nana has a lot of interesting things to talk about. She's written books, she's done a variety of different things, and rather than me giving it all away, it'll be more fun to let her tell the stories and get a chance for us to listen to her. She is in Oakland, California, so she's at the other end of the state for me, and we were just comparing the weather. It's a lot colder where she is than where I live down here in Victorville, where today it's 104 degrees outside. And Nana, you said it was like, what, somewhere around 70. Yeah, it's 68 There you go. See lovely weather. Well, Nana, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here, and I want to thank you for taking the time to be with us. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  02:23 I feel the same way. Thank you for having me on your amazing show. And it's so wonderful to be in conversation with you. Michael Hingson  02:30 Well, I'm glad we get a chance to spend some time together and we can, we can talk about whatever we want to talk about and make it relevant and interesting. So we'll do that. Why don't we start with what I love to do at the beginning of these is to talk about the early Nana growing up and all that. So take us back as close to the beginning as your memory allows. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  02:52 Oh gosh, as my memory allows. Um, I so I was born in Plattsburgh, New York, which is upstate near Montreal, Canada. Michael Hingson  03:06 Been there. Oh, cool in the winter. I even crossed the lake in an icebreaker. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  03:12 But yeah, oh my gosh, wow. Okay, yeah. Bring back memories. Well, I was only there for till I was, like two years old. So, but I do, I have gone up there in the winter and it is cold. Yes, it is cold, yeah. So I was born there, but I grew up in New York City and had that really was sort of my life. I lived in New York, grew up in Queens, New York, and then at 12 years old, my parents decided to send me to Ghana to go to school. And that was sort of like a big, the biggest change of my life, like I know that there was a before Ghana and an after Ghana, Nana and so, yeah, wow. Michael Hingson  04:02 So, so when was that? What year was that that you went to Ghana? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  04:06 That was 1990 August of 1990 actually. Michael Hingson  04:11 So what did you think about going to Ghana? I mean, clearly that was a major change. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  04:15 Yeah, you know, I, you know, my parents are from Ghana originally. So when, you know, they would always talk about it. We, you know, back then phones, long distance phone calls to Ghana. I, you know, that was, that was the extent of my sort of understanding of Ghana, the food that we ate at home, etc. So going to Ghana was just sort of mind blowing to me, to sort of be crossing, you know, getting on a plane and all of that, and then being in the country that my parents had left to come to the United States, was just sort of like, oh, wow, connecting with family members. It was just, it was a lot. To process, because life was very, very, very, very different. So yeah, it was just sort of a wild eye opening experience about just the world and myself and my family that ultimately inspired me to write a book about it, because it was just, I just, it was a lot to process. Michael Hingson  05:25 Why did they want you to go to to Ghana to study? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  05:30 Yeah, so in the 90s, in New York City or and in the late 80s, there was the crack epidemic was happening, and we, you know, I mean, I remember, we lived in a house in Queens, and when we would, you know, part of our chores was to sweep in front of the house, you know, rake the leaves, that kind of thing in the fall. And we would, all the time there would be crack files, you know, like as we're sweeping up, and I didn't get there where we were young. My sister was, you know, a teenager. I was 12, and my, you know, my younger brother had just been born. He was just like a, like, a little under a year old. And I think my parents just didn't feel that it was a safe place for us as kids to grow up. And so, yeah, they wanted to kind of give us an opportunity to get out of, you know, that environment for a while. Michael Hingson  06:33 What did you think of it? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  06:35 I mean, you know, as a kid, you never want to leave what to you. So it was, I would say it was, it was, it was interesting. Because initially I loved it. I was like, I actually campaigned, you know, I was like, I really, you know, would like to stay in Ghana, but I didn't want to stay for, you know, the three years, which is what I what happened? I wanted to stay for maybe, like a year, kind of try it, you know, go to school for a year. I found it this really cool adventure, go to boarding school and on all of that. But my parents made the decision that we should just sort of ride it out and finish like I had to finish high school. And, yeah, so, so great for me. Michael Hingson  07:25 So you were there for three years, yes. So by you were 12, so by 15, you had finished high Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  07:32 school, yeah, because the system there is different. It's it was at the time the British system. So it was like a form system where I saw I entered in form three, because it was, it wasn't quite the equivalent in the sense that I probably should have started in form two or form one, but I was also an advanced student, and and they, the way the system there works is you have to take a common entrance exam from primary school to get into secondary school. So it's very difficult to get into school midstream there. So we had to go through all of these hoops. And, you know, there was an opening in form three, and that was higher than my, you know, than where I should have been, but I was advanced, so I was able to get into that school that way. You did okay. I assume I did. I mean, I struggled, which was interesting, because I was a very, you know, good, strong student in the States, but I struggled mightily when I first got there, and throughout, it was never easy, but I was able to manage. Michael Hingson  08:49 Now, did your sister also go to Ghana? She Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  08:52 did, and she was hopping mad. Michael Hingson  08:55 How old was she when you were 12, she was Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  08:59 17, so she Okay, yeah, almost about to go to college. She was really excited about, like, that portion of life. And then it was like, okay, she's in Ghana. She was hopping mad. Michael Hingson  09:13 Well, how long did she stay? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  09:16 Well, so she stayed for two years. Because what Ghana has is sort of like, at the time it was something called sixth form, which is, again, the British system. So it's sort of like a college prep in between the equivalent of that. So she basically did that in Ghana. Michael Hingson  09:38 Okay, well, and your little brother didn't go to Ghana, Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  09:44 not yet, not not yet. You Michael Hingson  09:47 mean they didn't send him over at one year? No, okay, well, that's probably a good idea. Well, so looking back on it, what do you think about having spent three years in. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  10:00 Ghana, looking back on it, I think it was actually really, really good for me. I mean, it was that doesn't take away from the fact that it was very difficult. It was very, very challenging, not only academically. It was I was bullied really hard at this boarding school that I went to. The girls just kind of made my life hell. But what was amazing about it for me was that I had, I had exposure to Ghanaian culture in a way that I would never have had in the States. As I mentioned to you, Ghana was sort of that country over there when I lived in America. And you know, it existed as you know, family members coming to visit, long distance phone calls, the food that we ate, that you know, the accents that we had, things that made us different, and at the time, that was not cool. You know, as a kid, you just want to fit in and you don't want to be different. And going to Ghana was my opportunity to learn that, wow, I didn't have to be embarrassed or ashamed of that difference. There was so much to be proud of. You know, my family was, you know, a sprawling family, you know, my my grandmother owned a business, my grandfather owned a business, you know, it was, it was really, it was eye opening, just to sort of be in another environment. People knew how to, you know, pronounce my name, and I didn't have to, you know, just explain things. And that was really affirming for a 12 year old and a 13 year old when you're going through that, you know. So it was really good for me. And in Ghana is where I came to know Christ. I became a Christian, and it was something that spiritually, I was not really, I don't know, I just didn't really think about spiritual. I did on some level. But going to Ghana, it everything just felt so palpable. It was really like we're praying for this. And it happened, you know what I mean, like, yeah. It felt very Yeah. It was just a time in my life when life really felt very the mysteries of life really felt like they were open to me, Michael Hingson  12:37 interesting and so you clearly gained a lot of insight and knowledge and experience over there that you were able to bring back with you when you came Yes, yes. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  12:55 When I returned to the States, I was just, I think of myself, I guess, as a weirdo. Like, when I came back, I just felt so weird because I couldn't really, fully, you know, connect with my friends, because I had missed out on three years of culture, you know. And you You don't realize how much culture means, like, until, like, you know, you don't have those references anymore. I didn't know the songs that were popular. I didn't, you know, know about, I forget, there was some sort of genes that were really popular while I was gone. I didn't know what they were. I didn't have a pair of them. So it was just sort of this, this interesting time. And I was also young, because I had finished high school, and I was 15, yeah, my friends were, you know, sophomores, yeah, you know, and I was beginning the process of looking into college. So it was just a really isolating time for me and I, but also, you know, interesting and I, again, I say it was, it was ultimately in the in the wash of it. I think it was good because it enabled me to sort of, I guess, mature in a way that enabled me to start college earlier. And, you know, sort of see the world in a much different way. Michael Hingson  14:26 So when you went to college, what did you want to do? Or had you had you decided to start laying plans for a major and what you wanted to do post college, Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  14:36 I did not know what I wanted to do. I kind of, I mean, I kind of thought I wanted to be a doctor. I thought I wanted to be a doctor. Like, all my life, growing up, I was like, I'm going to be a doctor. And I was a science student in Ghana, but I struggled mightily. But still, I went. I entered college with us. You know, the plans? To become a bio psychology major. And you know, I took two, three classes, well more than that, I did, like, a year of classes. And I was just like, This is not for me, not for me at all. But yeah, yeah. So it was, it was that was a little rough. Michael Hingson  15:21 Things happen. So what did? What did you go off and do? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  15:25 Then I ended up majoring in political science and Africana Studies, and it was, I remember taking a political science class my freshman year, and I, my my professor was amazing, but it was, it was interesting to me. I think looking back now, being able to think about the world in a way that was sort of linking history and politics and culture together. And I think that was interesting to me, because I had just come from Ghana and had been exposed to, like, sort of this completely different culture, completely different political system, and, you know, kind of having that, I that thinking, or that wonderment of like, wow, you can Life can be so different somewhere else, but it's still life, and it's still happening, but also having that connection as an American to America and what's happening there. And so holding both of those things in my hands when I got to college, I think I was, I just what I was really sort of intrigued by the idea of studying politics and studying culture and society, Michael Hingson  16:48 and that's what you did. Yes, I did. So you got a degree in political science. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  16:54 Yes, a double degree political science and Africana Studies. Michael Hingson  16:57 Africana Studies, okay, and again, that that's probably pretty interesting, because the the Ghana influence had to help with the Africana Studies, and the desire to to do that, and you certainly came with a good amount of knowledge that had to help in getting that as a part of your major. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  17:16 Well, interestingly, my focus was on African American Studies, because I really growing up as an immigrant, like with immigrant parents, their understanding or their their thought process wasn't necessarily, I don't know they weren't. They didn't really raise us to think about race or being black, because their consciousness wasn't about that. It was they were immigrants. You know what? I mean, they weren't thinking about that. So I was actually quite curious, because I did grow up in America and I was black, but I didn't understand, you know, the history of America in that way. And I remember, actually, when I was in was it the third or maybe it was the second or third grade, or maybe it was fifth grade. I did a project on the Civil War, and I remember being so interested in it, because I had, I just didn't, you know, it wasn't. I was so fascinated by American history because I really wasn't. I didn't, I didn't understand it in the way that maybe somebody who wasn't the child of immigrants, you know, might, you know, connect with it. So I was just Yeah, so I was really fascinated by African American history, so I ended up double majoring in it and concentrating on African American politics, which was really fascinating to me. Michael Hingson  18:55 Yeah, and there certainly has been a fair amount of that over the years, hasn't there? Yes, there has, but you can, you can cope with it and and again. But did your time in Ghana, kind of influence any of what you did in terms of African American Studies? Did it help you at all? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  19:15 Um, I, I don't know, because I don't because, because I think what, what I what, what Ghana helped me with was, I remember, I'll say this. I remember one time in Ghana, in class, we were reading a book by an author who had we were reading a play, actually by a Ghanaian writer who was writing about a Ghanian man who married an African American woman and brought her to his home. And there was a lot of clash between them, because, you know, they were both black, but they had different sort of backgrounds. Yeah, and I remember the teacher asking, because the. The the wife that he brought home, the African American woman, mentioned certain things about America, and no one in the classroom could answer any questions about America, and I was the only one who could. And I was, you know, very, very sort of shy in that in that school and in that context. But I remember that day feeling so emboldened, like I was, like, I can actually contribute to this conversation. And so maybe, you know, in on some level, when I got back to the states, maybe there was some interest in linking those two things together. But it wasn't as as is in life. It wasn't obvious to me. Then it was sort of just kind of me following my interest and curiosity. And I ended up, I didn't set out to be an Africana Studies double major, but I ended up taking so many classes that I had the credits. And, you know, I was like, Okay, I guess I'm I have two degrees now, or two, two concentrations, Michael Hingson  21:02 yeah, did you go and do any advanced work beyond getting bachelor's degrees? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  21:08 No, I did not. When I graduated, I initially thought I might get interested, get in, go to law school. But this was me again, following my muse. I realized that my real interest was in writing papers when I was in college. You know, give me a 15 page paper, 20 page paper, I was ecstatic. I loved writing papers. And I think that's one of the reasons, too, why I loved political science and Africana Studies, because we were assigned tons of papers, and it enabled me to sort of, you know, writing these papers enabled me to kind of think through questions that I had, or process what I was reading or thinking about or feeling. And so when I graduated from college, you know, I got, you know, a job, and was working, trying to figure out, Okay, do I want to go to law school? But at the time that I graduated, that was also during the time of, like, the.com boom, and there were a lot of online magazines that were looking for writers, and so I started, kind of, you know, submitting, and I got some some things published. And as that was happening, I was like, I think this is what I want to focus on. Michael Hingson  22:30 So when did you really know that you were a writer? Then? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  22:34 I mean, I don't I think that when I got back, when I started working, so I, ultimately, I got a job in advertising, and I was working, you know, as an assistant in the on the account side of things, but there was this whole creative department that, you know, got to, you know, come up with all of the, you know, the the taglines and write commercials and write jingles and all that kind of stuff. And I was, like, so fascinated by that, and that's what I thought, okay, I could if you know, I need a job, I need money, and I want to write, so maybe this is what I need to be doing. And so I ultimately did get a job as a copywriter and and I still, you know, do that work today, but I think I always knew that I needed to write, and I wanted to actually write about my experience in Ghana. So I remember, you know, I started kind of very fledgling. Would began to write into that, and I ultimately started writing that the book that became my first book, powder necklace, on the subway to and from work. Every morning I would wake up very early, write what I could get ready for work, right on the bus, right on the subway, you know, get to work after work. You know, repeat. And it took me many years, but that's what I did. And I wrote my first book, Michael Hingson  24:14 and that was published in 2010 right? Yes, it was, did you self publish? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  24:18 Or I well, I did not self publish. I was published by Simon and Schuster. Simon and Schuster's Atria Books, Washington Square press. And part of my process was I started just kind of, you know, the Internet. The Internet was new. It was something that was available to me. So I started just kind of Googling, how do you get published? And they said you needed a literary agent. So I started looking online for literary agents. And because I lived in New York City at the time, I would literally write my my query letters and like, hand deliver them different agencies. 90s, and one woman, after four years of looking, said, Okay, this sounds interesting. I'd love to meet with you. And I didn't believe. I was like, wow, I've been rejected for four years, and somebody actually wants this, and she was able to sell the book. And I was shocked. I was like, Simon and sister, okay? And at the time they bought it, the, you know, the America, the US, was going through the whole financial, you know, crisis, the recession, in 2008 so they held my book for a year, and then we began the process in 2009 and then they, you know, we were on track to publish it in 2010 Michael Hingson  25:46 Wow. Well, tell me about that book. Yeah. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  25:51 Powder necklace is a novel. It's a fictionalized account of my experience going to high school in Ghana. I when I went to school in Ghana. I went to a girls boarding school in the mountains of Ghana central region, and that school was going through a major water crisis. We did not, I mean, we the short story is that, I guess, because of we were on the mountain, the water pressure was very low, and so it was really difficult to get the water up that mountain. And they didn't have like enough, you know, tanks around the school and what have you. So we had one artificial well, and then we had, like, an underground well, and that was it. And the underground well wasn't always, you know, full of water to service the whole school. It was really difficult. So, you know, we had to bring in our own water, some. And then it became, if you had money, you could bring water. But if you didn't have money, you didn't and it was a very desperate time for for young girls without being not being able to take a shower on demand. And it was, it was wild. Michael Hingson  27:15 Where does the title powder necklace come from? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  27:19 So the title, I named it powder necklace, because, as I mentioned, taking a shower became this like symbol of the haves and the have nots. And, you know, all of this having water, really. And if so, what, what the girls, what we would do is, you know, after you've taken a bath, people would put tons of powder on their necks. And it was sometimes it was okay we didn't take a bath, so we're going to put powder on our necks to scented powder to cover the odor. But it was also a way, like if you had bathed, to sort of, you know, show off that you'd bathed. So for me, it was as I was reflecting on the on this as I was writing this story and reflecting on that whole experience, I thought, wow, it was sort of our way of holding our heads up, you know, in the difficult situation, and kind of making the best of it. So that's why I called it powder necklace, Michael Hingson  28:17 okay? And that was for children. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  28:20 Well, it was for young adults, young adults, but Michael Hingson  28:25 it was more writing than pictures. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  28:27 Yeah, it was a young adult novel. I actually, I mean, this was my first book. I really didn't know what I was doing. I just, I wrote the book and I didn't know that it was a young adult novel, until people were like, Yeah, you wrote a young adult novel. I'm like, okay, Michael Hingson  28:47 works for me. Well, what does, what does being a writer mean to you? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  28:54 Um, I think being a writer means to me being able to articulate. A time, a place, a mood, a moment, being able to articulate it, one for myself, but also to create a record that helps people who don't necessarily have that gift to be able to sort of put words to the experience of living at a time place, having a certain feeling about something. Michael Hingson  29:34 Do you think there's a difference between being considered a writer and being an author, are they the same, or are they really different? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  29:45 I do think that there is a difference, and not in a sort of, you know, highfalutin way. I think the difference is the fact that when you I think, like, when you asked me initially, like, when do you think that you you became. Became a writer. My My instinct is to say that I think I was always a writer, because I think if you write, you're a writer. And whether you're published or not, you're a writer. If you have that inclination, that gift, and you sort of invest in that gift, and invest and develop it. I think you're a writer, but I think with an author, I think then that's to me. I think of it as the business of being a writer, or the business of being, yeah, you are now sort of in business with your publisher. Publisher has invested a certain amount in you, and it then becomes a more sort of public facing thing. The work is not just for you anymore. The work is now being disseminated to a group and hopefully to as many people as possible, and you as the writer now have to figure out, like, how do I get to my audience? How do I maximize or expand the reach of this thing that I wrote? How do I connect with people around the story and build build a readership. And how do I ultimately, you know, the my desire and goal would be to live off of this. How do I make turn this into something that I can, I can do, you know, full time and live off of Michael Hingson  31:38 so you turn from a writer to being an author. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  31:42 I'm, yes, I am an author, and I'm and I'm hoping to get to the to the, you know, the point where I can do it 100% full time, and it be, you know, 100% lucrative in that way. Michael Hingson  31:56 So what are you doing now? In addition to doing books, I Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  32:01 also freelance as a copywriter, so I'm still copywriting, Michael Hingson  32:05 okay, I was wondering what you what you did? So you're doing, still marketing and jingles and all those things, yeah, well, I Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  32:13 I'm my focus. I do do that, but my focus is mainly in the digital space. So I write lots of websites and web ads and social media copy, and, you know, things of that nature, campaign work. Michael Hingson  32:33 Well, that's, is there anything that you've written or copy written that we would all know, Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  32:42 yeah, I mean, I did. I've done a lot. I guess the maybe the most recent thing that I've done that people might be aware of, or some people might be aware of, is the Brooklyn Museum in New York, did a an exhibition called Africa fashion. And I, they created a short film to promote it, and I, they commissioned me to write an original piece for it. And so I wrote that piece and and performed it in the film. So, you know, people who are into that kind of thing a museum, that that museum might be aware of it. But I've also written for, I did a lot of work for L'Oreal Paris, USA, and I've just done a lot of beauty work. So many of the beauty brands you might be aware, you know, you might know, I've done some work for them, cool. Michael Hingson  33:45 Well, that, you know, you do have to do things to earn an income to to be able to afford to write until you can do it full time. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  33:53 Yeah, yeah. And I actually really love copywriting. I think it's an it's been an incredible teacher in the sense of how to how to crystallize an idea in very short, you know, in just a few words, how to convey emotion in just a few words. And also that storytelling is not just the words, it's how you deliver the story that's all part of it. So I think it's been an incredible teacher in that way. Michael Hingson  34:28 I know for me as a speaker, it is how you tell the story. And I've learned over 23 and a half years of speaking how to take people inside the World Trade Center and actually have them travel with me and do all the things that, and experience all the things that that I went through, and then come out of the other side and I and I say that because so many people after I speak somewhere, well. Come up and say, we were with you in the building. We were with you with everything that you did. And I appreciate that there is a real significant art to storytelling, and part of it is also, and I'm sure that this is true for you as a writer and an author, that part of it has to be that you have to actually connect with the audience. You've got to understand the audience. You've got to connect with them, and you have to bring them along, because they're not expecting to go with you. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  35:33 Absolutely, absolutely. And I will say that I started one of your books just the beginning of it, and I was just running with Roselle, and I was so taken, so absorbed by the first few pages of it. You really do immerse us. And I think that that's the best kind of of writing. You know, when you're able to kind of present material that people may or may not be familiar with, and make it riveting and really bring us into it, and then have us invest being, feel invested well. Michael Hingson  36:16 And I think the last book that we did last year live like a guide dog. I worked really hard to make sure that we were drawing people into the experiences, because every chapter is actually taking lessons from one of my guide dogs and also from Fantasia, which who is my wife's service dog, but each chapter relates to one of those dogs, and I wanted them to be environments where people again were drawn in and appreciate the dogs for what they are and what they do, not just some dumb Animal that comes along. Yeah. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  37:00 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, so interesting. I think there's, there's so much, I guess. I don't want to use the word, I guess what I want to say, there's a lot of mystery in in the sort of human animal interaction, and people just aren't aware of how powerful it is, and I can, I'm saying that I speak for myself, because growing up, actually, I was really, really scared of dogs and animals, all animals, and I so there's, there's two, there's kind of two stories I'll share. But one is when we were, when we were growing up, my parents, you know, were from Ghana. They wanted to eat goat meat. And at the time, you couldn't just go to a supermarket goat meat. So we used to go to a farm out in New Jersey that had goats, and we would have to go and have the goat, you know, slaughtered and, you know, cut up and all that kind of stuff for the meat. And I remember that whenever the hand would go into, you know, the pen where the goats were, the goats would just were. They would be so stressed out, they would like, you know, part like the ocean walked in, and if he picked, when he picked one out. There would be other people, other goats in the pen that would start screaming in agony, along with the goat that had been picked out. And I was just like, Oh my gosh. That must be his family members, like, or his loved ones. And it was so I remember that was so eye opening to me, like, wow. So I ended up years, years later, I wrote a short story, and I actually did some research on goats and how brilliant they are, and I was just like, wow, oh my goodness, I remember that so well. But I have a cat right now, and my kitty cat is just such a such a joy, like just sort of to build that relationship with, with my with my pet, is just such a beautiful thing, and how she just kind of, because I grew up really scared of pets, and I sort of inherited her when I got when I got married, you know, she's been very patient with me, like, because at first I was so skittish around her, and I could see her, kind of like rolling her eyes, like, I mean, you no harm. You can pick me up. It's all good. And she's just been so wonderfully patient with me. We've built that bond over time. Michael Hingson  39:31 Well, yeah, I have, of course, my my eighth guy, dog, Alamo, and stitch the cat. Stitch is 15 and a half and a real cutie pie. We rescued her. Actually, there were people who were living next to us, and he was moving out. His wife had died, and he just told the people who were moving all of his stuff out, take the cat to the pound. I don't want anything to do with it. And we, we said, Absolutely not. We'll find it a home. And then I asked, What the. Cat's name was, and they told me the cat's name was stitch. And I knew that this cat wasn't going to go anywhere because my wife had been, well, my wife had been a quilter since 1994 and a quilter is never going to give away a cat named stitch. Yes. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  40:14 Oh, I'm so glad stitch found a home with you. Michael Hingson  40:18 Oh, yeah. Well, we found a stitch. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  40:20 Oh, that's right, that's right. Michael Hingson  40:23 And, and, and so she's, she's got lots of personality. And so it really works out pretty well. No, no complaints. And I've always said, Whenever I get a guide dog, because my wife has always had cats, when I get a new guide dog, I've always said, and will continue to say, it has to be a dog that's been raised around cats and has no problems with cats. I have seen a couple of Guide Dogs, actually, that hated cats, and one almost killed a cat, and that's I will never tolerate that. Yeah, they have to get along. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely now, when we brought Alamo home, stitch had a few concerns about this dog in her house. She got over it when she decided that Alamo wasn't going to do anything to bother her and they they talk all the time now and rub noses and all that sort of stuff. Oh, that's so cool, yeah, but, but it's, it is great, and they, they bring so much joy and so many lessons to us that I think it was really important to learn. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  41:34 Yeah, yeah. You're reminding me the first dog, because my grandmother actually loves animals, and when I went to Ghana, she got a dog, and, you know, as a kid, so we got a puppy. And I remember the puppy was initially supposed to be a guard dog, but we I, I would feed the I would hand feed the dog sausages and just spoil the dog so much. Could not be a guard dog, so I loved that dog. Joshua, yeah, Joshua, Michael Hingson  42:07 well, but you and Joshua got along really well. On we got along great. One of the things that people sometimes ask me is if my dog trained to protect and the answer is no, they're not trained, and then they've said, Well, what would happen if somebody were to decide to attack you with the dog around? And my response will always be and rightly so, I wouldn't want to be the person to try that and find out what will happen, because much more than guarding, there's love. And I've always believed that dogs love unconditionally. I think trusting is a different story. They are open to trust, but, but you have to earn their trust. They'll love you, but will they trust you? That depends on you. And so it's it's really pretty cool, but I would not want to be the person to ever decide to try to attack us, because I, I am sure that Alamo would not tolerate that at all. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  43:10 Oh, not at all. How do, how do you or how have you built trust with your your pets? Michael Hingson  43:17 Well, a lot of it has to do with they want us to be the pack leaders. They want us to be their team leader. And so I have to set the ground rules. So, for example, no jumping on the furniture and all that. But again, it's also how you convey that. So if my dog is going to jump up on something and I don't want that, I'll say, leave it. And as soon as the dog obeys, I'll give the dog a food reward, a kibble, to let the dog know, and I'll also use a clicker, but I'll let the dog know I approve of what you did, not punishing them for, you know, something else. Yeah, so it's not punishment, it's positive rewards. I think that's extremely important, but also it is in the stressful times being very focused and calm. So if we're walking somewhere and we get lost, that is not the dog's fault, because it's my job to know where to go and how to get where I'm going, and it's the dog's job to make sure that we walk safely to get there, so if we get lost, that's on me. And what I can't do, or shouldn't do, is panic and become very fearful and upset, because the dog will sense that I have to stop and figure it out and continue to praise the dog, saying what a good job you're doing, and so on. And those kinds of things are the things that will, over time, build that trust. I think it takes a good year to truly build a trusting relationship that is second. To none. And that's the kind of teaming relationship that you want, whether it's a guide dog or any dog. And even as far as that goes, although they're different cats, yeah, but it's, it's all about building that relationship and conveying the command and conveying that you want to trust and be trusted? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  45:24 Yeah, yeah. I think you're you. What you said that really resonated with me is that they want to know. They want you to be the pack leader and the and part of that is, you know, you lay down the ground rules, but also you're responsible for them and their well being. And, yeah, that really, that really resonated with me. Michael Hingson  45:48 Well, so you wrote your first book, and then when did you write your second book? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  45:55 My second book came out in 2022, so it was a 12 year spread in my first book and my second book, Why so long? Oh my gosh, my book, I was the book I was working on, like to sort of follow, was just rejected for, for all that whole time, and I was, you know, in more and more distraught, and, you know, in despair about it. I didn't know what to do about it. And I actually, you know, I was actually reading the Bible, and I came across the fact that there was a curtain, a blue curtain, in King Solomon's temple. And I was like, why does it matter that the curtain was blue? And so I just started googling casually, and I discovered that there was a snail in antiquity that was harvested for the blue drops that it it secreted, or it secreted drops that were ultimately oxidized to turn blue. And I was like, what I've never heard about this? I started doing some more research, and I realized, like, oh my gosh, the color blue has such a fascinating history. Kids need to know about this. And so I wrote it really as a poem initially, but then I thought, you know, I really want to see if I can get this published. And I was able to get it published, and that became my children's book blue, which was such a bomb to my soul, because after sort of a decade of getting, you know, rejected, and, you know, close to a decade of getting rejected, this, this sort of beautiful, like, sort of knowledge, you know, I came across, But I was able to create a book, and it's just been a wonderful experience with the children's Michael Hingson  47:45 book, wow, so the full title of blue is, Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  47:51 it's blue a history of the color as deep as the sea and as wide as the sky. Wow. Michael Hingson  47:57 That should be enough to get the book sold. But as you point out, there's, there's a lot of history, yes, and that, that's pretty cool. So it was, it was released in 2022 and they finally, the publishers finally bought into that, huh? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  48:16 Well, yeah, I mean, that wasn't the novel that I've been working on. So I was still working. I ultimately, I did sell the novel, but that was its own journey, and I ended up writing another book that became the book is called my parents marriage, and it is not about my actual parents marriage. It's a novel about a young woman for adult readers. It's my first book for adult readers, and it is about a young woman whose parents are in a polygamous union, and how they're they have a really turbulent polygamous union, and how that relationship kind of kind of cast a shadow on this woman's, you know, choices in relationships and marriage for herself. Michael Hingson  49:10 So you you publish that my parents marriage. You also did a collection relations. Tell me about relationships. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  49:18 I did. Yeah, so relations is an anthology of its stories, essays and poems that are by writers from all across the continent of Africa. So I have Egyptian poets and Libyan you know essayists and you know, Nigerian storytellers, just it was, it was a really amazing project to work on. I started working on it during August of 2020, which was sort of like I've heard it described as peak pandemic, right? You know, we were several months. Into lockdown, and you know, it became this wonderful way for me to kind of connect while I was sort of holed up in my apartment in New York. Michael Hingson  50:15 Okay, now, were you married by then? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  50:18 No, I was not. I had just started dating my now husband, and I was like, Am I ever gonna see this man again? Because he lived in California, so at that time, the planes were grounded. I remember we were, like, on the first, very first flights that were able to start, you know, that started and be on planes, there'd be like, four people on the entire plane. Michael Hingson  50:42 Yeah, hopefully you both weren't on planes going against each other at the same time. No, you did communicate a little more than that. Oh, good. Well, so you published. So when was well? What was relations published? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  51:02 Relations came out in 2023 okay, February of 2023, and my parents marriage came out in July of 2024. Just came out in July of 2025, Michael Hingson  51:14 which one the paperback of the paperback? Oh, okay. Have any of them been converted to audio Yes, Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  51:23 all, but my first book, are audio books. So blue is an audio book, beautifully read, and then their relations, the stories and essays and poems are read by two speaking artists, and then my parents, marriage is is also wonderfully performed. So, yeah, they're all an audience. Michael Hingson  51:50 That's cool, yeah. So when you're writing, what, what's kind of the difference, or, how do you differentiate between writing for young people and writing for adults. There must be differences. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  52:07 Yeah, I think, I think with for young people, and the practical thing that I try to do is make sure that the vocabulary is are is familiar to them, mostly familiar. I like to put in a stretch word now and then to kind of get them to, like, get to the dictionary and find out what. But if I'm right, when I when I wrote blue, for example, knowing that, you know, the the age group is, the age spread is four to 888, year olds are in third grade. Four year olds are in pre K, so that's that's pretty big spread. So my sweet spot is first and second grade vocabulary words. Okay, it has to be something that they've been exposed to. So thinking of it in that way, the other thing too is breaking down concepts that are, you know, as adults, you know, we just assume that you know, or you can go look it up, but just kind of thinking it through. So if I'm talking about, instead of saying that, you know, there was a snail in antiquity who, you know, heart, you know, dyers were harvesting blue dye from these snails through after a process of oxidation. I wouldn't use any of those words. I would say, snail produced some drops that when exposed to the air and the sun turned blue. And so just sort of really, kind of being mindful of that, and also thinking very visually, writing, very visually. How can I create pictures with words that would be familiar to a child, that can sort of ignite their imagination? Michael Hingson  53:53 Yeah, I think it's extremely important to to deal with the visual aspects of it, but using words and really drawing again, drawing people in because if you just say, well, you can see this in this picture. That doesn't mean a lot, and you're also, I would think, helping to teach or create the concept that some people might some children might want to go off and write because they like how you say and what you say Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  54:24 absolutely and when I when I talk to kids, I go or visit schools, I invite them like I wrote about the color blue. What's your favorite color? These are some some things that I did to kind of learn about it. You can do these things to learn about your favorite color and write your own book? Michael Hingson  54:42 Yeah, yeah, it's, I think, so important to really draw people in and get them to think. And I think it's so much fun for me, I do some of that, but I have probably more of a chance. Challenge, because kids want to play with the dog. Yeah, it's all about the dog. I did a lecture at a K through six elementary school in San Francisco several years ago. I'm trying to remember what school it was anyway, and the teacher said you can only talk for about 10 or 12 minutes, because they just won't pay attention any longer than that. 35 minutes later, I finally ended the discussion, because they were so fascinated to hear me talk about what my dog did. And then I carried that over to how blind people work and function and all that. And the fact is, they were fascinated. The teachers couldn't believe it, but for me, it was a great lesson to know that it's all about creating these pictures that people can follow, Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  55:53 yeah, and also to extending those pictures or those words into an experience for kids. Yeah, they really, they really appreciate, sort of like seeing it, kind of, you know, see if the having the concept come to life, yeah, way. And so I'm sure when they see your dog, or are able to interact with your dog, that must be so wonderful for them, Michael Hingson  56:22 but it's important for them to understand what the dog is all about. So by the time they get to interact with the dog, we've talked about things like, you never pet a guide dog in harness. This is what a guide dog does, and this is what they don't do. There are a lot of things to to cover. So it's great when I have the opportunity to really teach them. And sometimes we'll walk around a classroom and I'll show them what he does. Yeah, it's important to be able to do that. Oh, I love that. I love that. And he loves it, of course, all the way. So no question about that. He's you haven't lived until you've seen two or 300 kids all wanting to pet this dog. And the dog knows what to do. He's down on the floor with every appendage stretched out as far as he can go to maximize petting places, petting. Oh, it is so funny. I love that. He loves it. He's, he's, he's so happy. He doesn't care whether he'll do it more with kids even than adults, but, yeah, he'll do it with everybody. It's all about petting me and just remembering I'm the dog. I love that. Well, you've gone through a fair amount of time between books, and I'm sort of curious, what do you think about all the various kinds of changes and ebbs and flows that have come along in the book business, in the book publishing business and so on. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  57:56 Yeah, there have been a lot of changes. Um, I think, um, when my first book came out, like things like, you know, Instagram Bookstagram did not exist. There weren't many sort of podcasts or things of that nature. So I think that there is, there's definitely, there are more venues and more platforms to, you know, get the message out about the book. But I think also there is, it's also just hard. It's in some ways, it also feels in some ways more challenging to get the word out, because in addition to, like, yes, there are more venues in that way, regard, there are fewer book reviewers and fewer places to get a book reviewed, and there's a whole kind of interesting business about around getting reviews. So it's just not the same in that way. But then at the same time. I think what remains the same is connecting with readers. I think the most effective thing is, you know, writing a book that's good and then getting people who have read it and liked it to evangelize, to tell people I liked it, please buy it, or you should have you heard of and because at the end of the day, you know, that's what's going to, you know, give it some wind Michael Hingson  59:30 when thunder dog came out, and we did mention about reviews, and it actually has had, like well over 1600 reviews since it came out in 2011 live like a guide dog hasn't had, of course, so many yet, but every time I get a chance to talk about that book, I ask people to go review it and tell them why it's so important, because potential readers want to know what people think of the book. Yeah, for sure. For sure, it's. It really is important for readers to review and just be honest and say what you think. It's fine, but people should do that. For me, I think one of the biggest things that I see that publishers are doing less of is in a lot of ways, true marketing. You don't, you know, you don't see them doing nearly as much. Of course, I know it's more expensive, but to help create book tours or anything like that, they focus only on social media, and that's not the way to market the book. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  1:00:33 Yeah, I think, I mean, I've never worked inside a publishing office, so I don't know what actually, how they make these decisions and what goes on, but I do. I think what I have come to sort of think, how I've come to think of it, is the publisher is my business partner, sort of invested in terms of, they've given me an advance. They're going to do the turn key things like, you know, make sure the book gets reviewed by Publishers Weekly, or, sorry, Publishers Marketplace, or no Publishers Weekly. I was correct, and Kirkus review, Kirkus right, and all those kinds of things. And maybe they'll do a mailing to you know who they believe are the people that they need to mail it to. But outside of that, unless you know you, you know it's stipulated in your contract, or you know you are that high, yeah, you know that that celebrity author, or that that best selling author that they you know, are willing to put that money behind. You're working with some your publicist, who's been assigned to your book has is probably working on 10 other books. Can devote so much to it. And so what I've learned is thankful. I'm thankful that, you know, I have this publisher, but I also know that I need to do a lot of work on my own to get Michael Hingson  1:02:04 you've got to be your best marketer, yes, but, but there's value in that too, because you can tell the story whatever it is, like no one else, exactly, exactly. And so that's that's really pretty important, yeah, Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  1:02:18 for sure, for sure. And you can be, you know that I think, also giving yourself permission to be creative, yeah, you know, how can you get the word out in really creative ways, like, again, the publisher. These are things that like, if there was, you know, people, there were many people dedicated to your book for this amount of time, they could kind of sit there and brainstorm and do all those things. But, you know, the reality is, in most cases, it's a small it's a lean and mean team. They don't have that bandwidth, so yeah, just kind of coming up with creative ways. And at times, what I have learned to do is, how can I, if I have an idea that is maybe low cost and but I can't necessarily do it on my own? How can I ask them for support, because they do have, you know, a little bit more resources, Michael Hingson  1:03:16 yeah, and, and the how is really pretty simple. Actually, you just ask exactly, exactly, and you know either they will or they won't, or you'll share it, or whatever. And I have found that same thing to be true. Well, Nana, if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? If they might want to talk about you doing copywriting for them or whatever, how can people find you? Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  1:03:41 So my website is Nana brew-hammond.com, can you spell please? It's n, a n, a, b, r, e, w, H, A, M, M, O, N, d.com, and I have a newsletter there. So a newsletter sign up. So they can sign up to be a part of my newsletter and connect with me that way. They can also find me on Instagram, I'm at n, a, n, a, e, K, U, a writer on Instagram, and I'm also on Facebook at that same name, and then on Twitter, I am that without the writer. So, n, a, n, a, e, K, U, a, Michael Hingson  1:04:28 okay, cool. Well, I hope people will reach out and and I hope that they will read your books and like them and review them. I hope the same thing. Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching us today. We really appreciate you being here with us. I'd love to hear what you think. Please feel free to email me. I'm reachable at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I. B, e.com, Michael H i@accessibe.com love to hear your thoughts and love to get your your opinions. I would really appreciate it if you would give us a five star rating when you have the opportunity to review this podcast. We really value your ratings and reviews very highly, and definitely want to know what you think, but please give us a great rating. We love that. If you know anyone who wants to be a guest on a podcast, or you think ought to be a guest, we're always looking for guests. And Nana you as well. If you know anyone, we're always looking for more people to come on the podcast and tell their stories. So we appreciate it. If you'd let us know. By the way, you can also go to my podcast page, www dot Michael hingson, M, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s o n.com/podcast, that's another way to reach out to me as well. But definitely anything you can do to bring more folks to us, we value it very highly. And so with that, once again, Nana, I want to thank you for being here. This has been great. Nana Ekua Brew-Hammond  1:06:01 Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me on, and you are such an inspiration. And thank you. Michael Hingson  1:06:13 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Burnout shows up quietly, and in this conversation, I think you will hear just how deeply it can shape a life. When I sat down with Kassandra Hamilton, she opened up about building a meaningful career in global and Indigenous health while struggling with exhaustion, anxiety, and the pressure to look like everything was fine. Her turning point came when she finally stopped long enough to ask what she truly needed. Kassandra talks about people pleasing, giving her power away, and the inside out process she now teaches to help others realign their lives. We walk through the RAIN method, the importance of boundaries, and the small daily choices that help you rebuild trust in yourself. My hope is that you walk away feeling grounded, encouraged, and ready to take one step toward a more aligned and Unstoppable life. Highlights: 01:12 – Learn how early purpose can quietly shape the path you follow. 02:51 – See how a wider view of global health reveals what truly drives burnout. 06:56 – Understand how systems and technology can add pressure when they overlook human needs. 12:50 – Learn how hidden emotions can surface when you slow down and pay attention. 17:37 – Explore how reclaiming your power shifts the way you respond to stress. 24:23 – Discover how emotional regulation tools help you move through difficult moments. 41:18 – Learn how small, steady changes rebuild energy and direction. 47:36 – Understand why real burnout recovery starts with alignment, not escape. About the Guest: Kassandra Hamilton is an alignment life coach, bestselling author in 3 categories, musician, healer, and facilitator.  She is dedicated to helping others find inner alignment and live from the inside out, rather than in a burnout state or in autopilot mode. After completing a degree in biology and international development, and then completing a Masters of Science, she wanted to pursue a career in medicine.  She has always wanted to be of service to others, and as a child she literally had dreams of holding her hands towards people and visualizing light being sent to them. only way it made sense in terms of a traditional career trajectory while she was in school was to pursue medicine.  After completing her Masters degree, she decided to work alongside doctors to see what their day to day was like and how they were creating a positive impact in their communities.  What she actually saw was a lot of burnout, paperwork, and dissatisfied lives of people that were once passionate about medicine. She was working for Doctors of BC in Vancouver, with a high end office and apartment, when she collapsed one day in her apartment from an overwhelming sense of anxiety, burnout and grief.  She had lost her dog, her boyfriend, and both her grandparents all within three months.  On top of that, she was in a career that looked good on paper, but wasn't actually fulfilling her purpose of being of service to others. She no longer wanted to pursue medicine and didn't know how she got to a dead end if she had followed all the “right” steps according to society's blueprint for success. She spent the next few years really learning about her inner world and what her purpose in life was. She became dedicated to her own healing and coping with anxiety and burnout.  For the next decade, she began working with First Nations across Canada. She witnessed and learned about the importance of looking at the whole person, from a spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical lens.  Everything seemed to be connected.  As someone with a science background, she had always been fascinated with the intricacies and magical elements of everything that comes together in one singular cell.  Our emotions are energy in motion, and if they don't move through, they get stuck.  We decide if we allow our emotions to flow or not.  Kassandra also realized how powerful our minds are.  With one thought, we create a story.  That story becomes our reality.  With all of these realizations, she came to understand that we are literally magicians of our own realities. Kassandra has learned and experienced, time and time again, that health and happiness stems from our internal world first and is a combination of our mental, spiritual, physical, and emotional realms.  Once we deal with our inner worlds and live in state of awareness over how we are operating in the world, we can project that version of ourselves out into the world to create positive change.  In a world that constantly pulls us outward - with notifications, expectations, distractions “The Magic of Realigning From the Inside Out” is about bringing us back home to ourselves.  Through deeply personal storytelling, scientific insights, and soul-centres practiced, Kassandra invites readers to reconnect with their inner compass.  This is a guidebook for anyone longing to move from autopilot to alignment and discovering what it truly means to live with intention, purpose, and clarity. Because the answers aren't out there, they HAVE to start from within.  We weren't meant to just get through the day. It is exhausting trying to fix and control everything “OUT THERE.” And the thing is, we have no control over what's happening out there anyways, We were meant to thrive and share our gifts with the world.  This is how positive ripple effects are made.  This is Kassandra plans to leave the world a better place, and support others to do the same.   With the external chaos, political mess, climate change, and growing tensions worldwide, She decided it was time to start creating some positive changes. She now has started a coaching practice committed to sharing her work with others, and her book compliments her work, outlining a 4-phase approach to moving from anxiety, fear, burnout, to living in alignment and inner power.  After a very successful book tour showcasing her bestseller (in 3 categories) “The Magic of Realigning From the Inside Out” – she is going on tour.  But this isn't just any book tour – it is centred around creating community connections.  She will be doing wellness workshops and talks in local libraries, bookstores, and wellness venues around burnout prevention, boundaries, resilience, and authentic leadership, leveraging my book as a tool for this. She is currently in the planning stages and open to support in making this happen. Kassandra is dedicated to sharing stories that inspire personal development and growth. She brings a unique perspective to storytelling, blending data-driven insights with narrative. With years of experience in health information management projects with First Nations communities in Canada, she has become fascinated with the power of sharing compelling stories through complex qualitative data.  Her book is titled “The Magic of Realigning From the Inside Out” and is now available on Amazon and 50+ more platforms. Outside of writing, she loves traveling, dancing, hiking, paddleboarding, and putting on community events that promote inner healing and connection.  She also provides sound healing sessions, Ayurvedic Head Massage, and Bio-Energy Healing sessions at a local wellness establishment in her community.  She volunteers at Connective Society as a restorative justice mentor for youth who are struggling with a lack of leadership or role models in their life. Lastly, Kassandra is a singer/songwriter and a musician.  You can find her playing at local open mics, hosting backyard community jam sessions, or at gigs around Vancouver Island. She put out an EP under the artist name “Kazz” in 2018 called “Reflections” and has released 4 singles under this title since.  This year (2025), she started a new collaborative label with her partner who is a music producer, and they have released two songs under the artist name “Cyphyr & Myraky.” Her mission is this: So many people believe the answers are "out there" and feel helpless in the current state of the world environmentally, politically, economically etc. Instead of feeling helpless, paralyzed by fear, or living under the influence of external circumstance and chaos, we can create real change by first realigning from the inside out to reconnect with our inner power and creativity. Imagine a world where people took responsibility for their life, knew their purpose, and felt like they were living life in full alignment with this.  Imagine what our communities would look like then? Above all else, Kassandra wants to inspire others to create positive ripple effects out into the world.  Ways to connect with Kassandra**:** Instagram: @kassandra hamilton  Facebook: Coaching with Kassandra TikTok: coachingwithkassandra LinkedIn: Kassandra Hamilton Website: www.kassandrahamilton.com Linktree with all my info: https://linktr.ee/kassandra.hamilton Spotify: Under name "Kazz": https://open.spotify.com/artist/0gpUecr9VkVJMmVIyp1NFt?si=byM7VdL9QDeezl5-666XKQ&utm_medium=share&utm_source=linktree&nd=1&dlsi=9a801d5edc774e1d Under name "Cyphyr & Myraky" - new collaborative label https://open.spotify.com/artist/3xUxZGxTseXQB2G9PVolMn?si=In3BLhX3SMK_c-3ukTlCfQ&utm_medium=share&utm_source=linktree&nd=1&dlsi=d369f571e6384062 Amazon Link to Book: https://a.co/d/2yWISSu Book Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDKW9ZNrsvA Rogers TV Community News Story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0eOnQ2DAdg Nanaimo News Bulletin Story: https://www.nanaimobulletin.com/local-news/nanaimo-health-and-life-coachs-new-book-guides-inner-alignment-8182386 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! 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Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:21 Well, hi everyone. I want to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset. We're really glad that you're here with us today. Our guest today is Kassandra Hamilton, from up in British Columbia, way, and she has, I think, a lot to talk about. She's a coach. She talks about burnout and but also about her many talents. She sings, she's a musician, and on top of everything else, she's an author, and she just wrote a book that has just come out. So we've got lots to talk about, or she has lots to talk about, and we'll talk about it with her. So, Kassandra, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Kassandra Hamilton  02:08 Thanks for having me, Michael. I'm really grateful to be here today. Michael Hingson  02:12 Well, I'm excited. There's obviously a lot to talk about, I think so. Tell us a little bit about the early Cassandra growing up, and all the usual things. You know, you got to start at the beginning somewhere, Kassandra Hamilton  02:22 absolutely, yeah, so as a kid, I mean, I've always been curious. My mom used to get very puzzled by me as a child, because I would always ask, like, who is God and how is the world made? And I just had all these questions. And it just never really stopped. When I was six, I had a vision of helping people and healing them with my hands, and I just saw this light between my hands and other people, and it was this recurring dream I kept having, and I didn't understand it in the practical sense. So I pursued a very traditional, you know, career in medicine, because that's what made sense to me, and the social conditions that we had in front of us, and that didn't really pan out for me. I just it wasn't resonating. I felt like the system was very rigid. And I just have always been fascinated with more of a holistic picture of someone you know, like their physical, emotional, spiritual selves, and so the just focusing on the physical alone just wasn't cutting it for me. I knew there was so much more, and I was so curious about all of that. So yeah, I've gone through different sort of journeys on my path, and come back to a place of really wanting to be of service and share some of the tools and strategies that I've learned along the way. Michael Hingson  03:47 Well, you started down the road of going into medicine, didn't you? Mm, hmm. And what was your master's in? Because I know you had your your master's degree, and then you started working with doctors. What did you get your master's degree in? Kassandra Hamilton  04:02 Yeah, so I completed a master's of science because it was in the stream of global health. And so I was really fascinated by the multifaceted aspect of that. And not just looking at physical impact in the world. We looked at, you know, political and economic, geographic indicators of health really gave me that sort of overall vision of what health looks like from from that bird's eye view. And then I wanted to pursue medicine after that, because, again, I wanted to be of service to others, but I ended up working with doctors to see if that's actually what I wanted to do, and I just saw the amount of burnout that doctors were experiencing and how 80% of their workload was paperwork. Michael Hingson  04:56 And so what did. You do. Kassandra Hamilton  05:02 So I left that work. I was there for two years, and it just I wasn't buying it. So I left. I started my own company as a consultant, and realized that a lot of the issues I was seeing abroad, I actually we had a lot of gaps here in Canada, especially with our indigenous communities, the disparities there were just huge, and so I focused my energy for the last decade on working with indigenous communities and unlearning a lot of sort of colonial ways of doing things and really integrating the holistic health model that is presented from from that culture that I was working with, and it's really, really been transformative and instrumental in the way that I approach health now, Michael Hingson  05:51 well, I'm curious about something sort of off the wall. I appreciate what you're saying about paperwork, and I'm sure there are all sorts of legalistic reasons why there has to be so much paperwork and so on in the medical world, especially when everybody's so concerned about things like malpractice and all that. But do you think any of that has gotten any better? Or how has it changed as we are progressing more to a paperless or different kind of charting system where everything is done from a computer terminal. I'm spoiled. My doctors are with Kaiser Permanente, and everything is all done on wireless, or at least on non paper chart. Types of things that they're just typing into the computer, actually, as as we're communicating and we're talking and I'm in visiting and so on, but everything is all done online. What do you think about that? Does that help any Kassandra Hamilton  06:53 so very great question. So when we're talking about accessibility, I'm going to say no, not for indigenous communities, at least here in Canada, I'll speak from my experience, but things have gone digital, and actually what I was doing was working as a digital health consultant to bridge health gaps in digital systems. Because what was happening and what still happens is there's systems that are quite siloed, and so a lot of health centers that are remote will be using paper still, or they'll be using system for that and another system for this. And so there's no wrap around, diligence around the client. And so there is this huge accessibility issue, which is what I've been working on for the last 10 years. Michael Hingson  07:41 Well, do you think that as well? Hopefully you'll see more paperless kinds of things go into play. But do you think in areas where the paper quantity has decreased, in the online or digital chart systems have come into play. Does that help burn out at all? Do you think again? Kassandra Hamilton  08:08 You know what? It really depends. Like you're you're only as good as your as your system allows, and so if you haven't allowed for inclusivity, and for example, a lot of the work that was funded in the first couple years that I was doing, there was no due diligence to figure out whether or not these remote areas even had internet. So without internet, they were pumping money into all of these systems that were super high tech, not culturally appropriate. A lot of elders don't even own a computer, let alone a smartphone or anything like that, or have service. So it was there was a huge disconnect there, and so part of the work I've been doing is a lot of advocacy and helping government agencies understand the connecting pieces that are are instrumental in the success of digital health implementation. Yeah, well, Michael Hingson  09:09 you know here, I know a fair amount about the whole digital chart system, because my sister in law was a critical care unit nurse at Kaiser, and then she managed several wards, and then she was tasked to be the head nurse for on the profit side, to help bring digital charts into Kaiser and and so I heard a lot about it from her and especially all the doctors who opposed it, just because they didn't want any change. They wanted to just do things the way that they had always done them. Yeah. And so the result is that they kind of got dragged kicking and screaming into it a little bit. But now I hear people mostly praising the whole system because it makes their job a lot easier. On the other hand, the other thing that happens, though, is they the system crams more patients into a doctor's appointment schedule every day, and so I'm not sure they're always seeing as much of patients as they should of any given patient, but I guess they have more doctors that specialize in different things. So no matter what happens, the doctors can all see whatever there is to see, because everything is in the chart, right? Kassandra Hamilton  10:41 And so Absolutely, in theory, and in urban areas where that works, you know, the digital systems are set up properly, absolutely. But in terms of going back to your question about burnout, if there's one nurse for one community, and she's a chart in five different, you know, systems that it's actually going to add to her burnout at the end of the day. Yeah? Michael Hingson  11:04 Well, yeah, and I appreciate that. I mean, so clearly, there's still quite a disparity, but it does, it does sound like in areas where they're able to truly bring digital charts and capturing information digitally into the system where, where that does exist, it can make people's lives, doctors, lives and so on, a little bit easier, and maybe contribute a little bit less to burnout. Kassandra Hamilton  11:34 Yeah, absolutely. And of course, that's the hope, and that's you know, why we continue to do the work to bring it into this, especially with AI too, like bringing more efficiency into the workplace, and it's all part of it. So yes, absolutely there's, there's definitely some, some hope, and some, you know, leaner, leaner ways of doing things for a lot of people. So yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson  12:01 I'll hope it will continue to get better, and that the influence will expand so that the more rural areas and so on will be able to get the kinds of things that the more urban areas have. Now I live in an area that's fairly urban, but we don't have a Kaiser hospital up here. We have clinics, but we don't have a hospital. And apparently there's now, finally some movement toward making that happen. But it's interesting, where we used to live, in Northern California. We lived in a very what was, although we weren't, but was a rich County, and there were 200,000 people or so in the county, and there was a Kaiser hospital in the county. There was a Kaiser hospital about 30 miles away in San Francisco, and there were Kaiser hospitals going north, 1520, miles further north, in Petaluma. So there are a lot of hospitals, but we are in an area where there are over 400,000 people now, and there isn't a Kaiser hospital here, and that just has always seemed kind of strange to me. And the response is, well, the doctors don't want to move up here. I mean, there are all sorts of different reasons that are given, but it just seems strange. So if you really need to go to the hospital, they do have contracts that sort of work sometimes, or you have to go about 50 miles to get to the nearest actual Kaiser hospital, right? So it's strange. Kassandra Hamilton  13:38 It is strange. And there's a lot of things. Who knows who made the last call on decision? Right? So, right, yeah. Michael Hingson  13:48 Well, again, so the rumor goes they're going to be building a hospital here, and I think that will be a good thing. So we'll see. We'll see how it goes. But you experienced burnout, Kassandra Hamilton  14:00 didn't you? I did? Yes, I tell us about that, if you would. Yeah, absolutely so when I was 27 and I went, that was Michael Hingson  14:13 last year, right? Kassandra Hamilton  14:14 Yes, thank you. It was 10 years ago, but on the outside, I was thriving. Michael, I was like, working for doctors of BC, I had an apartment on the ninth floor. I had an ocean view. I had the apartment downtown. I was, you know, dating. I was like, doing all these things. I was achieving, pushing and showing up. And inside I was running on empty, and I was very disconnected from my purpose, from myself, and that breakdown became eventually a breakthrough, but in the process, you know, I lost all my grandparents and my dog, and I didn't have tools for dealing with my anxiety. Yeah, and social media sort of just amplified that sort of comparative feeling, and I just started to slow down and like really realign, and I realized how many people were living on autopilot and surviving instead of thriving. And that's really when I wanted to become committed to helping others reclaim their purpose and their authenticity, and not just bounce back from burnout, but like rise into something greater, and like reconnect with themselves and their why of their purpose of being here. You know, Michael Hingson  15:33 yeah, because you you thought you were thriving, but you really weren't. Yeah, exactly which is, which is unfortunate, but still, those kinds of things happen. So what did you So, how did you go from experiencing burnout to moving forward and realigning? What? What did you learn? How did you discover it and what actually happened. Kassandra Hamilton  16:01 So I, you know, I, for a long time, went through my own inward journey. And I, you know, I went to counseling, I sought other ways of healing, through energy work, I tried all the different tools and modalities, and I realized over time, it meant flipping the script, and most of us live from the outside in, and we're chasing expectations and people pleasing, letting circumstances dictate our worth, and living from the inside out to me meant connecting with who I was and my values and and the truth of finding my like finding my purpose, and letting that be the driver, and that means having boundaries. It means speaking up when you're when you're scared or you have fear. I know you've done a lot of work with fear and how to leverage that for a more positive outcome, rather than letting it stop you. So in my life, that shift has really helped me stop outsourcing my power and allowed me to show up authentically in my work and my relationships and creativity, and that's where my freedom and vitality really lives, and I really want to share that with others. Michael Hingson  17:12 That's interesting. Way that you put it, you're outsourcing your power. What do you mean by that? Kassandra Hamilton  17:18 I was giving my power away. I was waiting for someone else to approve of something that I did. I was showcasing my, you know, achievements, and that was how I attached value to my identity and who I was. Michael Hingson  17:34 And of course, what that really meant is that you, as you said, it was all about people pleasing and so on. And how did you change all that? Kassandra Hamilton  17:43 It wasn't overnight, I'll bet it wasn't, yeah, and so I changed all that by getting curious and by going inside. And I have a four step process that I share in this book that I've now written. And the first step is to observe yourself, like, how are you showing up? What kind of patterns are coming up for you? And then starting to understand, like, why, where did those come from? And then starting to re tune that part of yourself, like, Okay, so that's how I'm showing up. How do I want to show up? And how can I change my patterns, and how I react to things, to do that, and that's how you start to, sort of like flip the narrative and limp from the inside out. Michael Hingson  18:26 How do people do that? Because we're, because we're, I think we're really trained to behave that way. We're we're trained to as, as you would put it, all too often, give your power away or outsource your power. And how do we change that mentality? Kassandra Hamilton  18:48 Yeah, well, we have to first observe ourselves. We have to look at, you know, how are boundaries being used in your life? Or are they even there? Are you showing up for yourself as much as you're showing up for other people? Are you being authentic in what really is, in alignment with your own values? Are you living on purpose? So these things are what we look at, and then I have tools and frameworks and questions to help people really start to observe themselves from an outside perspective and ask themselves, Is this really how I want to be living right now? Is this allowing me to live the life that I want? Michael Hingson  19:34 Yeah, and is it, is it helping me grow Exactly? And that's that's a lot of the issue that that we face. I know, in my my book live like a guide dog that wrote was published last year. We we talk a lot about the fact that people need to learn, or hopefully will learn, how to be much more introspective and. And analyze what they do every day, and really put that analysis to work, to to learn. What am I afraid of? What is going on? Why am I worried about this? Because I don't have any control over it and and people just don't grow up feeling that way, because we don't really teach people how to learn to control fear and how to be introspective, which is part of the problem, of course, right? Kassandra Hamilton  20:27 Or even how to manage our emotions, right? Like emotion is energy in motion, and if we do not allow it to move through us, it gets stuck, and it shows up in our bodies as a physical ailment, yeah. And that's the mind, body, spirit connection. That's why physical, mental, emotional health is so important to look at as as a whole, not just in silo. Michael Hingson  20:51 So how do you how do you teach people to take a different view than what we typically learned how to do well? Kassandra Hamilton  21:01 So once we've observed what people what people are, how they're operating, we then start to understand where it comes from. So a lot of people are programmed either by society or early childhood experiences, and then they are just operating on autopilot from those patterns. But they don't know that. So once you start like, awareness is everything, and once you see something, you can't unsee it. So at that point, it's like, okay, how can we move from this place to where you want to be? And so I have a lot of tools for understanding and processing your emotions in real time. I have tools for understanding and managing nervous like your nervous system, I look at it from a science and health background as well as a spiritual background. So it's like blending the tool to and understanding that healing isn't just physical and mindfulness and slowing down and journaling and just taking the time to actually try and understand yourself. Michael Hingson  22:03 So how has all of this changed how you live your life? Kassandra Hamilton  22:08 Well, I since I started operating in a different way, I bought a house. I bought another house, about another house, I, you know, wrote a book. I changed careers. I am coaching people now I'm just like really living in my element, in my my full purpose, which is have this written on my wall that I want to help others rediscover their magic, so we can all fly together. So it's really about spreading positive ripple effects in the world, you know, but starting at home and in our communities. And I believe that that inside out ripple effect is so much more powerful than anything we can do out there, Michael Hingson  22:56 just so that we get it out there. What's the title of the book? Kassandra Hamilton  22:59 It's called the magic of realigning from the inside out. Michael Hingson  23:04 Since we, we talked about it, I figured we better get the title out there. Yeah, thank you. And there is a picture of the book cover and so on in the show notes. But I just wanted to make sure that you, you did tell people the title. Well, tell me, is there an incident or a moment where you realize that your work could really create change in someone's life? Kassandra Hamilton  23:32 Yeah, you know, that's an interesting question. I've been asked that a few times, and the answer is that I just have a very strong morning practice where I journal. And throughout that journaling the last few years, I realized my process of integrating all of these tools and what it's done for me, and it just became like again, me observing myself through the pages and recognizing that I you know, it was my responsibility to share this, this work that I had done with other people, and not from a place of of ego, but really from that place of wanting to share stories and experiences in hopes that it will inspire others to, you know, take the time to Get curious and courageous about their own lives. Michael Hingson  24:22 Did you have any kind of an aha moment or a moment with anyone besides yourself that really caused you to realize, Oh, I'm really making a difference here. I'm really able to do this, and it makes a lot of sense to do what I'm doing. Kassandra Hamilton  24:38 Well, it's so funny, because informally, all of my friends will come to me for, you know, advice or coaching or reframing or whatever, and then eventually I was like, Man, I should get paid. And Michael Hingson  24:53 they're not your friends anymore, because now you're charging them, right? Kassandra Hamilton  24:58 So it's something that I've. Always really wanted to do, and I've always been fascinated by people and how their brains work, and what their resistance to change is, including my own. And yeah, I guess I just sort of had this moment a few years ago when I was like, I want to really focus my time on and energy to help other people have these moments of insight, or aha moments, or realizing they can pivot and actually start creating what they want in their lives. Michael Hingson  25:29 So what kind of tools do you use in your coaching process to help people do that? Kassandra Hamilton  25:34 Yeah, I lean on a lot of work from Gabor Mate and Deepak Chopra. I use tools that I've learned through Tara Brock. So my favorite tool, actually, that I, that I use, and I, I encourage people to try, is rain. And so if I could leave one sort of tool for people here today, it would be rain. And rain stands for recognize, acknowledge or accept, investigate, and then nourish. And so anytime people are in an activated emotional state or a negative emotion, they can sit away from their current situations, whether it's you go to the bathroom, or you sit alone for a few moments and you just recognize, okay, what is it that I'm feeling anxiety? Alright, we've named it. I recognize it. I'm accepting and acknowledging that I feel anxious. And then I is investigating, why do I feel anxious? What is the reason I feel anxious? And once you have figured out why, you can start to comfort yourself from a place of compassion, like it's okay to feel this way, you know Michael, like emotions are just children that want to be seen and heard, and the more you shove them down, the more chaos ensues. So when you comfort those emotions and you understand them, they move through you, naturally, emotion energy in motion. That's how we can assist ourselves in getting better at letting the emotions move through us. Michael Hingson  27:08 Yeah, and something that comes to mind along that that same line is the whole issue that you've already talked about, some which is talking about what what you feel, whoever you are, and be willing to express emotions, be willing to be honest with yourself and with other people. And again, I just think that we so often are taught not to do that. It's so unfortunate. Kassandra Hamilton  27:36 Absolutely, absolutely, we're not taught about anything. And I have a long list for the education curriculum, let me tell you, yeah, boundaries, you know, emotional regulation, emotional intelligence, yeah, reframing, Like there's just so many things, so many things. Michael Hingson  28:03 So you've, you've helped a lot of people, primarily, who do you do you coach? Who are your your typical clients? Or does it matter? Kassandra Hamilton  28:14 So I typically coach people between ages 25 to 40, but I actually recently had a senior reach out to me after she found an article in the paper, and so I'm not excluding people from who I work with, but generally speaking, that's sort of the age range is 25 to 45 people who maybe have reached a, you know, the career they thought they were always going to do and get there, and they're like, this, isn't it? This isn't it for me, I'm burnt out. I'm tired. It's not what I thought it was going to be. Or maybe they're in a relationship and they're stuck and feeling burnt out from that. So yeah, that's the age group that I work in. Because regardless of what issue you're working on, career, relationship, sense of self, these tools will help you pivot to really realign with your purpose. Michael Hingson  29:03 So how do you help people go from being stuck to realigning and empowered Kassandra Hamilton  29:10 through my four step process? So I don't want to give too much away, but people will just need to read the book to find out. Michael Hingson  29:19 Well, if you can describe maybe a little bit in general, just enough to Yeah. Kassandra Hamilton  29:24 So just like I was saying before, like first getting really clear on how people are operating, so that's the observed part, and then starting to understand themselves through the different patterns that are coming up on a weekly, daily basis. So it's a lot of investigating and getting data in the first couple weeks, and then after that, we start to understand how to rewire things through different tools that I introduce, and we do it in small, manageable steps. My coaching programs are either six weeks or two. 12 weeks long. And throughout that process, we try things, and everyone's different. So some tools stick, you know, more than others, and that's okay. I just have a the approach that I've moved them through, and by the end, people are having amazing experiences and feeling like it's life changing. And I have, you know, a lot of people reaching out with testimonials that I just, you know, really helped fuel me to continue this work. Michael Hingson  30:26 Have you done this at all with children? I Kassandra Hamilton  30:30 haven't, but it's so interesting that you asked that because I really love working with youth. I work in a restorative justice volunteer program here in my community, and it's all about providing mentorship and being a role model for for youth that have maybe lost their way. And that's definitely an area I'm curious about. It's funny that you mentioned that. Michael Hingson  30:55 Well, it just, you know, the the reality is that the earlier we can get people to think about this and change and go more toward the kind of processes that you promote, the better it would be. But I also realize that that's a it's a little bit different process with with youth, I'm sure, than it is with older, older people, adults and so on. But I was just curious if you had done any, or if you have any plans to maybe open any kind of programs more for youth to help them the same way, because clearly there are a lot of stuck youth out there. Kassandra Hamilton  31:37 Yeah, very much so. And to be honest, like with the amount of technology and information overload and state of the world, like the amount of overwhelm and anxiety among youth right now is just through the charts, yeah, yeah. So definitely something that's been on my mind, and I I'm very curious as to what sparked you to ask that, because it's definitely something I've been exploring so Michael Hingson  32:02 well, it just popped into my head that that's an interesting thing to think about. And I would also think that the earlier we can and in this case, you can, reach children, the more open they probably are to listening to suggestions if you can establish a rapport with them. The reality is that that at a younger age, they're not as locked in to ways of doing things as they might be later on, my wife was my late wife was a teacher for 10 years, then she loved teaching second and third graders, and she said even by the time you're getting to fourth graders, they're starting to be a little bit more rigid in their mindsets. And so the result was that it was harder sometimes to reach them. And I think that's true, and I and I know that everything I've ever read or heard younger the child, the more open they are, and the more they're able to learn. Like younger children are better able to learn more than one language and so on. And the earlier you can get to children, probably the better it would be all the way around. Kassandra Hamilton  33:19 Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, yeah, definitely, an avian Avenue. I've been curious and exploring myself. So, yeah, Michael Hingson  33:28 I wonder, I wonder what the techniques would be, because I'm sure that the techniques are going to be a little bit different than than what you face with older people, Kassandra Hamilton  33:37 not necessarily like I think at any age, it's good to learn about boundaries and why they're important and understanding what we think they are versus what they actually are. And same with, you know, seeking validation outside of ourselves. Like I don't think, I don't think it's quite I think it might be a little bit more stuck when we're older, but I don't think it's very different. Yeah, I guess it just depends. Just depends. Michael Hingson  34:07 Well, you talk a lot about boundaries, authenticity, authenticity and purpose. How does all that really go into your whole coaching program? Kassandra Hamilton  34:22 Sorry? In what sense, like, can you ask that it may be a different a different way? Michael Hingson  34:29 Well, um, you talk, you've you've mentioned boundaries a number of times, and authenticity and so on. So I'm just curious, how do they fit into what you do and what you want people to do okay? Kassandra Hamilton  34:41 So people will come to me and they're, you know, feeling burnt out. They're constantly on. They're juggling family relationships, digital overload. They don't have space to breathe, let alone, you know, connect with themselves. And underneath that, there's often a lot of people pleasing or fear. Not being enough or living by other people's expectations, and so so many of them are feeling exhausted, unfulfilled, lack of worth when they come to me and they're just like, I don't know what else to do. And often, a misconception about burnout is that you need to work harder for things to get better, or you just need a small break to reset, and then you're fine. But if we don't change anything in that, in the mind, in the mindset, then people are just going to go back to the way, the way they were. Michael Hingson  35:33 How would you really define burnout? Kassandra Hamilton  35:38 I would define burnout as people feeling helpless, feeling like they're living on autopilot, exhaustion, feeling like there's just so much to manage and they don't have the time or the energy again, feeling like they can't or don't know about boundaries, and yeah, they're unfulfilled. They're not feeling like themselves. And so what I would suggest for anyone who's feeling that way is one of the things you can do is just just pause, create a moment of space for yourself, even if it's just five minutes a day, ask yourself what you really need, and it sounds simple, but most of us are so disconnected or needs that we don't even ask the question. But that pauses our power. It can be the doorway to listening to yourself again, and from there, you can start making choices that really align with what you actually want? Michael Hingson  36:43 One of the things that I suggest, and we do it in live like a guide dog, and I suggest it to people whenever we get in these discussions, is, no matter what you say about not having time, you absolutely have time, especially worst case at the end of the day, when you're starting to fall asleep, take the time to analyze yourself, take the time to become more introspective, because you have that time because you're in bed for heaven's sake. So you're really not supposed to be doing anything else, or shouldn't, but it's a great time to start to think about yourself, and I think that's a great time to deal with all the things that you're talking about here as well. Kassandra Hamilton  37:20 Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah. And people have time for what they prioritize. That's that's the truth. And whether that's something people want to accept, it's absolutely the truth. You will make time for the things that are important to you. Michael Hingson  37:35 Yeah, well, and that's what it really comes down to does, isn't it that you're always going to make time for the things that you find are important to you, and the reality is that you'll be able to progress when you discover that some of the things that are important to you are the kinds of things that we're talking about here that will avoid burnout or get you away From that absolutely we just have to really neck us back to boundaries and authenticity and purpose. It just gets back to knowing what you really need, and ultimately, no one can know that better than you about yourself. Kassandra Hamilton  38:16 Absolutely, we have to reconnect to what matters and build the life that gives energy instead of only draining it. Michael Hingson  38:23 Yeah, and we can, we can do that, but we do need to take the time to make that happen, and that's why I really suggest do it at the end of the day. It's quiet and or you can make it quiet, and you can really learn by doing that you don't have to watch TV until an hour after you've fallen asleep, and then you wake up and discover the TV's on. You can take the time to become a little bit more introspective and learn more about yourself that way. And that's exactly what will happen if you really think about it Kassandra Hamilton  38:55 100% and you know, at my book launch, people were asking, like, how did you write a book, and it was like, it's not it's not hard in the sense that it's hard, it's hard because you have to show up every day. But that consistency, whether it's five minutes or an hour, like the consistency is everything. So showing up for yourself in small ways or whatever feels manageable at first, will naturally give you more energy to wake up early and give yourself more time. You know, it's just happens that way. Michael Hingson  39:25 Yeah, yeah. Well, I agree. What's your favorite tool that you use with clients? Kassandra Hamilton  39:31 So it would be the one I shared with you earlier rain. It has been very instrumental for people in transforming how long it takes them to go from from a place of fear or anxiety or resentment to just processing it and being neutral. And it's amazing. Michael Hingson  39:53 And again, just to reiterate, it rain stands for, Kassandra Hamilton  39:57 recognize, accept or acknowledge. Manage, investigate and nourish, Michael Hingson  40:05 that's cheating. You get both both spellings of rain in there. That's that works, but it makes perfect sense and and I'm assuming that you've felt you've had pretty good success with people. Have you had anyone that just resists, even though they come to you and they say, Oh, I'm burned out and all that, but you start to work with them and they just resist? Or do you find that you're able to usually break through? Kassandra Hamilton  40:35 So it's funny, because a lot of people that come to me are very resistant to it, because of the nature of burnout, where people feel like don't have the time or the energy right at the beginning, a lot of people are very resistant, and they say so in their testimonials. No, at first I felt resistant, but then I didn't know that these things were actually going to give me exactly what I what I needed. So I've worked with a couple nurses. I worked with a woman who was managing, like, working four jobs, and she was super burnt out. But eventually, probably by like two or three weeks in, people are starting to feel the differences, and they're, they're all in. So yeah, it does take a bit to get them there, but once they're there, they're they're flying so, Michael Hingson  41:22 yeah, oh, that's that is so really cool, because you're able to break through and get people to do exactly what we've been talking about, which is so important to do, Kassandra Hamilton  41:34 yeah, yeah. And you know the moments for me that just feel like, Oh, this is the work I meant to do, is seeing someone go from that place of burnout or defeat because they're working a job they don't enjoy to starting their own business that's leveraging their creativity and their passion, or they've repaired a relationship, or they're finally feeling confident in themselves like there's No better gift to me than to see that change in somebody. Michael Hingson  42:06 What are some of the most common struggles that you see in people? I know we've probably talked a lot about it, but you know, it's good to summarize. But what are some of the kind of the most common struggles that you find in people? And why do you think that people are experiencing so much burnout? And I'm assuming that those two are related, Kassandra Hamilton  42:27 yeah, yeah. So, okay, so if we were talking about career, people that are managing a career that is very demanding, and that is all they do, and they have no energy for time like for things outside of work. What they say is that they're feeling numb, or they're living on autopilot, or they don't recognize themselves anymore. Another shared that she was really scared of leaving because of a financial aspect. And so I think at that point, you just start to flip the narrative and ask, well, what are you sacrificing by staying right? So like, maybe we need to get a part time job while we're exploring our creativity and building a new business for ourselves, but it's 100% possible, and these programs are not meant to make these drastic changes overnight. They're small, incremental, consistent changes that over time bring you to a place of alignment with what you actually want to create in life. Do you Michael Hingson  43:34 find that there are some people who feel I can't stay here, I've got to leave or this boss isn't good, or whatever, when, in reality, it's it's something different, and that a mindset shift makes them discover that they really are in a good well, they're in a good position, or they have a good career, or whatever, but their perspective has just been off. Kassandra Hamilton  43:56 Yeah, absolutely. So someone said something to me the other day that it stuck with me at the time, but it was something like, If you can't, if you can't get out of it, you better get into it. Yeah, that's a good point. It's like, yeah, sometimes it's just with how you're showing up for yourself and for the people around you. And that's the shift that needs to happen. So it's not necessarily about leaving a job. Thank you for bringing that up. It is about changing your life from the inside, and a huge part of that is mindset and the energy that you're bringing to a situation. Because how you do one thing is how you do everything. So, yeah, Michael Hingson  44:41 it's it's like, well, one of the things that I constantly tell people is there are a lot of times that something occurs to you or that you're involved with you have no control over, because you're not the one that that did it, or you're not the one that directly made this happen. And but you always have the choice of how you deal with whatever happens. So even if you don't have any direct influence over something occurring, you have always the opportunity to determine how you're going to deal with it. And that's always something that I think is so important for people to analyze and think about. But I think all too many people don't Kassandra Hamilton  45:21 absolutely the power is in our pause. And that's something I tell people all the time, the power is in your pause. Slow down, take a second, don't respond right away. And then come from a place of power, and you know that it changes everything. Michael Hingson  45:38 Well, the reality is that the more of that that you do, the more you pause, the more you think about it. The fact is, the quicker, over time, you'll be able to make a decision, because you're teaching yourself how to do that Kassandra Hamilton  45:54 truly. Yep. Michael Hingson  45:56 And so for a while, you may not be able to or you you are not confident enough to be able to make a decision right away, which is fine, you should pause. But the fact of the matter is, I think what I really describe it as, and I think it's so true, is you need to learn to listen to your inner voice, because your inner voice is going to tell you what you need to do. And you just need to really learn to focus on that, but we don't. We always say, Oh, that's too easy. That can't be the right answer when it really is. Kassandra Hamilton  46:26 It really is. And so again, that pause is also about space, right? So when I feel triggered by something, I will take the space to let myself come back down from that and then ask myself what I really want, or again, coming back to boundaries, if someone asks me if I want to do something, and I'm a very social person, and I love connection, so right away, I want to say yes, I'll, you know, do that thing with you. Now I have a really beautiful way to still show that it's like something I want to partake in, but honor myself as well. By saying I love this idea, I need a little bit of time to figure out if I can fully commit to this, and I'll get back to you at this time so it shows integrity, not only to myself, but to to that person as well, and showing up in a way that it like, if I have capacity to do that, then I will, yeah. Michael Hingson  47:25 Well, if somebody listening to this kind of feels unfulfilled or stuck exhausted, what's the very first step that you would suggest that they take? Kassandra Hamilton  47:37 Just like I was saying, just take a pause. Michael Hingson  47:40 I knew you were going to Kassandra Hamilton  47:41 say that create a moment of space. Ask yourself, what's really going on and what you really want, and then ask yourself if your actions are all the choices that you're about to make align with that, yeah. Michael Hingson  47:56 And the reason I asked the question was, was really just to get you to reiterate that and to get people to hear it again, because we have to really come together in our own minds and decide what we want to do, and we shouldn't have knee jerk reactions. There's no need to do that, if we think about it and really take the time to ponder what makes the most sense to do. Can we'll get the right answers if we work at it Kassandra Hamilton  48:22 100% you just have to put in a little bit of curiosity and time to figure it out. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Michael Hingson  48:33 What do you think is one of the greatest misunderstandings about burnout and what is the truth that you really wish more people knew? Kassandra Hamilton  48:46 People think burnout is just about being tired or needing a vacation, but it's so much deeper than that. And you know, it's a sign that we've been living out of alignment with ourselves, and that rest alone isn't going to fix it real, real recovery is is coming from changing the way that we live and setting boundaries and reconnecting with what matters and building a life that gives energy instead of strain. Michael Hingson  49:16 Yeah, again, it gets back to that authenticity thing. Kassandra Hamilton  49:19 Yep, that thing, yeah. Michael Hingson  49:26 What are some of the biggest transformations that you've seen from your clients that you're really pleased about? Kassandra Hamilton  49:33 I've seen clients go from anxious and depleted to, like I said, starting businesses that they love. And that wasn't even something that we worked on together, it was like just a few tweaks, you know, simple but not easy, shifts that they made. And then I get emails or comments about how they're starting businesses that they love, and they're full time booked in that so like that. That's been a big transformation. Question for a few of my clients. One woman was trying to find a relationship, and she had tried everything, and from all different angles, and it wasn't working, and truthfully, she needed to come back to herself and align with herself, and when she did that, you know, nine months later, she found the love of her life, and one client said she stopped feeling numb for the first time in years. Another shared that she actually laughed and felt joy again. And these transformations are powerful because they're not just surface change or changes. They're they're life changing shifts in how people see themselves and what they what they feel like they can create in the world. Michael Hingson  50:46 And ultimately, isn't most of this transformation or shift really a change in one's mindset. Kassandra Hamilton  50:54 Yes, it is mindset, and it is also taking the time, taking the time, having the courage and having awareness of how we are operating in our daily lives, and why, yeah, and then shifting that. Michael Hingson  51:12 Well, tell us all about the book. When did it launch, and what's happened, and what do you see coming down the line for it and so on? Yes, I know you have a lot to talk about, so tell us. Kassandra Hamilton  51:27 So the magic of realigning from the inside out is very much in line with what I coach about, which is about bringing us back home to ourselves. And I share a lot of personal storytelling and scientific connections and soulful practices that I've tried that have worked really well for me, and I really invite readers to reconnect with with themselves. So it's sort of like a guidebook like the first the first half of the book is a lot of stories, the second half is more tools and strategies. And overall, it's the idea that, you know, the answers aren't out there. They have to start within. And we weren't meant to just get through the day. It's exhausting to try to fix and control everything out there. The thing is, we have no control over what's happening out there anyways, and so we have our one wild and precious life, and it's like, what are we going to do with that, especially in a world that's constantly pulling us outward with notifications and expectations and distractions? Yeah, I really believe this is how we show up to make a positive difference in the world by working on ourselves and spreading that upward. Michael Hingson  52:40 So when did the book launch? Kassandra Hamilton  52:43 August 21 was my book launch here on Vancouver Island, and I'm actually organizing a little book tour. Yeah, across the province here. So yeah, that's stay tuned. It'll be next month. I think so. Michael Hingson  53:01 Have you had any kind of book tours, or what kind of publicity Have you had so far for the book? Kassandra Hamilton  53:06 So I was working with a publicist, which was very new to me, and I was able to connect with some press. So a couple newspapers came to my book launch. There was, I think it was like 50 people that showed up, and the mayor came to give a speech, and he wants to meet with me for lunch next week and talk more about what I could do with the book, which is great, because I really think I can use it as a tool for helping in my own community and maybe even offering organizations some opportunities to explore strategies to get their their employees out of burnout. Yeah? So that's kind of what's happened so far, and a lot of bookstores have taken it up. So I've got all the local bookstores here. Have it. It's not available on Amazon, yeah, and it's actually a bestseller. I reached bestseller status in three categories. What categories, personal development, personal growth, and I think anxiety was the third one I have to look back at it. Michael Hingson  54:14 Well, definitely congratulations are in order for doing that. Though. Thank you. Thank you. So that's that is definitely kind of cool to to have that kind of situation and that kind of status happening with the book. It makes it very exciting and certainly gratifying in so many ways. When did you start coaching? Did you when did you actually start your company? Kassandra Hamilton  54:37 So I started coaching. Let's see two, two, no, a year and a half ago. So honestly, formally, not that long, but it's already just something I'm so passionate about and getting more and more positive feedback on. So yeah, I guess in the grand scheme of things, I'm just getting started. Michael Hingson  54:59 Well, that's fair. That's fine. Yeah, we, we think you're going to go far at least. I think you're going to go quite a, quite a distance with all of this. Do you just coach people directly, one on one? Do you do virtual coaching? Do you coach outside of British Columbia and all that? Kassandra Hamilton  55:18 Yeah, you know, I mostly work virtually, because then I can be accessible to more people. So that's how I actually prefer to work, is virtually, but I'm open to, you know, meeting people where they're at and however they want to communicate. So I've been doing phone calls with with one person and then zoom with another, and if people do want to do in person, I'm open to it. It's just a little bit more restrictive in terms of reach. But I'm also going to be doing some wellness workshops and talks around these tools and strategies I've learned, and using my book as a tool as I go through the province next month. So it's not just going to be about the book. It's going to be presenting and giving workshops and talks around this work, and then presenting my book as a tool to use in in helping people get back to a place of alignment and energy again. Michael Hingson  56:20 Well, on your on your website, we haven't talked about that yet, but on your website, do you have any videos of talks or anything like that that you've done? Kassandra Hamilton  56:31 Not of any talks. I think my first one, to be honest with you, is, was at the book launch, but it went so well that I'm just sort of, I'm I'm adding fuel to that fire, you know, and I'm just gonna keep going, yeah. So I haven't done any talks beyond that one yet, but I have some testimonials and things on my website. So those are the videos that are there. Michael Hingson  56:55 Well, for people who are listening to this today, who feel like they want to do. So, how can they reach out to you and connect with you, and what? What happens? Kassandra Hamilton  57:05 Yeah, so the best way is to reach out to me through my website or my I have a link tree link that I think I might have sent you, Michael, but it has all my different links for working on with coaching or reaching out in different ways and contact information. So link tree, Instagram are my main ones, but also obviously email and my website. So what is your website? It's www, dot Kassandra with a K Hamilton, which is my last name.com, Michael Hingson  57:40 so that's easy. Www, dot Kassandra Hamilton com, Kassandra Hamilton  57:44 yeah, and on Instagram, it's at Kassandra with a K underscore Hamilton, so Michael Hingson  57:50 Okay, yeah, have you? Have you done much with LinkedIn? Kassandra Hamilton  57:55 I have, yeah, I also have LinkedIn, yep. And I have Tiktok, and I have Facebook, Michael Hingson  58:00 all the things, all the different suspects, all the usual suspects, yes, yeah. Well, that is, you know, that is really pretty cool. I hope that people will reach out, because you've off, you've clearly offered a lot of very useful and relevant information. And I think that it's extremely important that people take it to heart, and I hope that maybe we're going to be able to have contributed to your getting some more people in the business too. Kassandra Hamilton  58:30 I really appreciate that, Michael and I know you've done so much work with people as well, and inspired others, you know, astronomically. So I really appreciate and feel grateful for the time that you've given me today. Michael Hingson  58:46 Well, this has been a lot of fun, and we'll have to do it again. You'll have to come on and some point in the future and let us know how things are going and how the book is doing, and how everything else is happening. But I, but I really do value the fact that you've spent so much time with us today. Kassandra Hamilton  59:03 Thank you so much. At least we're in the Michael Hingson  59:06 same time zone. That helps. Yes, that's true. Well, Kassandra, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you out there for listening to us and being with us and watching us, whichever you do. I'd love to hear from you as well. I'd like to get your thoughts and your opinions. Please reach out to me. At Michael H i, that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, I'd like to get your thoughts. Like to know what you thought of today's episode, wherever you are experiencing the podcast, please give us a five star review. We value your reviews highly, and we would really appreciate you giving us reviews of this episode and the podcast in general, and for anyone out there, including you, Kassandra, who might know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable. Mindset and tell their own story. Please reach out. Let

In this impactful and inspiring episode of Unstoppable Mindset, host Michael Hingson sits down with Ronald Cocking—performer, educator, and co-founder of the Looking Glass Studio of Performing Arts—to reflect on a remarkable life shaped by rhythm, resilience, and love. Ron's journey into the performing arts began at just five years old, when his passion for tap dance ignited a lifelong commitment to dance and musical theater. From his first professional role at age 15 in My Fair Lady to founding one of Southern California's most impactful arts schools, Ron's story is one of dedication, creativity, and community.   But perhaps the most moving part of Ron's story is his 49-year partnership—both personal and professional—with the late Gloria McMillan, best known as Harriet Conklin from Our Miss Brooks. Together, they created a legacy of mentorship through the Looking Glass Studio, where they taught thousands of students across generations—not just how to act, sing, or dance, but how to live with confidence and integrity.   Ron also reflects on the legacy Gloria left behind, his continued involvement in the arts, and the words of wisdom that guide his life:   “Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.” “To find happiness, take the gifts God has given you and give them away.”   This is more than a story of a career in the arts—it's a touching tribute to passion, partnership, and purpose that will leave you inspired.   Highlights:   00:48 – Hear how early radio at home shaped a lifetime love for performance. 03:00 – Discover why drumming and tap both trained his ear for rhythm. 06:12 – Learn how a tough studio change led to ballet, jazz, and tumbling basics. 08:21 – See the “sing with your feet” method that makes tap click for students. 10:44 – Find out how a teen chorus role in My Fair Lady opened pro doors. 13:19 – Explore the drum-and-tap crossover he performed with Leslie Uggams. 15:39 – Learn how meeting Gloria led to a studio launched for $800. 18:58 – Get the long view on running a school for 44 years with family involved. 23:46 – Understand how Our Miss Brooks moved from radio to TV with its cast intact. 32:36 – See how 42nd Street proves the chorus can be the star. 41:51 – Hear why impact matters more than fame when students build careers. 43:16 – Learn what it takes to blend art and business without losing heart. 45:47 – Compare notes on marriage, teamwork, and communication that lasts. 48:20 – Enjoy a rare soft-shoe moment Ron and Gloria performed together. 56:38 – Take away the “teach to fish” approach that builds lifelong confidence.   About the Guest:   My father was a trumpet player, thus I heard music at home often in the early 50's and was always impressed and entertained by the rhythms and beats of Big Band music… especially the drummers.  Each time I would see Tap dancers on TV, I was glued to the screen.  It fascinated me the way Tap dancers could create such music with their feet!   In 1954, at age 5, after begging my Mom and Dad to enroll me in a Tap class, my Dad walked in from work and said “Well, you're all signed up, and your first Tap class is next Tuesday.  I was thrilled and continued studying tap and many other dance forms and performing and teaching dance for all of my life.     In my mid teens, I became serious about dancing as a possible career.  After seeing my first musical, “The Pajama Game” starring Ruth Lee, I new I wanted to do musical theatre.  I got my first professional opportunity at age 15 in “My Fair Lady” for the San Bernardino Civic Light Opera Association and loved every minute of it… and would continue performing for this organization well into my 30's   I met Gloria McMillan in the late 60's while choreographing a summer musical for children.  Gloria's daughter was doing the role of Dorothy in “The Wizard of Oz”.  Then, about 3 or 4 years later I would meet Gloria again and the sparks flew.  And, yes, she was Gloria McMillan of “Our Miss Brooks” fame on both radio and television.  Wow, was I blessed to have crossed paths with her.  We shared our lives together for 49 years.   On November 4, 1974, Gloria and I opened a performing arts school together named “The Looking Glass Studio of Performing Arts”.  We would teach and manage the school together for 44 years until we retired on June 30, 2018.  We moved to Huntington Beach, California and spent 3 beautiful years together until she left to meet our Lord in heaven on January 19, 2022.   Ways to connect with Ron:   Lgsparon@aol.com     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi there, wherever you are and wherever you happen to be today. Welcome to unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Mike hingson, and today we get to chat with Ron Cocking, who is Ron. Well, we're going to find out over the next hour. And Ron was married for many years to another person who is very famous, and we'll get to that, probably not as well known to what I would probably describe as the younger generation, but you're going to get to learn a lot about Ron and his late wife before we're done, and I am sure we're going to have a lot of fun doing it. So let's get to it. Ron, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Ron Cocking ** 01:59 Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. Michael, this. I've been looking forward to this.   Michael Hingson ** 02:04 I have been as well, and we're going to have a lot of fun doing it.   Ron Cocking ** 02:08 Do you one note on that last name? It is cocking. Cocking, he comes right? Comes from a little townlet in the coal mining country of England called Cockington.   Michael Hingson ** 02:20 I don't know why I keep saying that, but yeah, cocky, no   02:23 problem.   Michael Hingson ** 02:24 Well, do you go up to the reps recreations at all?   Ron Cocking ** 02:28 Oh my gosh, Gloria. And I know you and Gloria, did do you still do it? I've it's on my schedule for September.   Michael Hingson ** 02:35 I'm gonna miss it this year. I've got a speech to give. So I was going to be playing Richard diamond at recreation. Well, I'll have to be Dick Powell another time, but I thought that you you were still doing   02:50 it. I'm planning on it cool.   Michael Hingson ** 02:53 Well, tell us about the early Ron cocking and kind of growing up in some of that stuff. Let's start with that.   Ron Cocking ** 02:59 Well, the early part of my story was when I was born just a little before television came in, before everyone had a TV in their home. How old are you now? If I maybe, you know, I am now 76   Michael Hingson ** 03:12 Okay, that's what I thought. Yeah, you're one year ahead of me. I'm 75   Ron Cocking ** 03:16 I was born in 49 and so my earliest remembrances my mom and dad and my brother and I lived with our grandfather, and we had no television, but we had this big it must have been about three to four foot tall, this big box on the floor in a very prominent spot in the living room. And that was the Sunday afternoon entertainment. I remember my family sitting around, and I listened and I laughed when they did, but I had no idea what was going on, but that was the family gathering. And just, I know we'll talk about it later, but I I just have this notion that at that time I was laughing, not knowing what I was laughing at, but I bet I was laughing at my future   Michael Hingson ** 04:02 wife, yes, yes, but other things as well. I mean, you probably laughed at Jack Benny and Amos and Andy and   Ron Cocking ** 04:09 yeah, I remember listening to all those folks, and it was just amazing. Then when television came about and my father was a trumpet player, and I loved his trumpet playing, and he practiced often at home. He would sit in his easy chair and play some tunes and scales and that sort of thing. But what captured my ear and my eyes when I went to on rare occasions when I could go to his engagements, it was always the drummer that just stuck out to me. I was mesmerized by the rhythms that they could produce. And when TV came about, I remember the old variety shows, and they often would have tap dancers like. Had a stair gene, Kelly, Peg Leg Bates and the Nicholas brothers, and I just, I was just taken back by the rhythms. It sounded like music to me. The rhythms just made me want to do it. And so I started putting that bug in my parents ears. And I waited and waited. I wanted to take tap dance lessons. And one day, my dad walks in the back door, and I said, Dad, have you signed me up yet? And he said, Yep, you start next Tuesday at 330 in the afternoon. So I was overjoyed, and I went in for my first lesson. And mind you, this was a private tap class. Total Cost of $1.25 and we had a pianist for music, no record player, live piano, wow. And so I, I rapidly fell in love with tap dance.   Michael Hingson ** 05:56 And so you did that when you weren't in school. Presumably, you did go to school.   Ron Cocking ** 06:00 Oh, yeah, I did go to school. Yeah, I did well in school, and I enjoyed school. I did all the athletics. I played little league, and eventually would be a tennis player and water polo and all that stuff. But all through the years, after school was on the way to the dance classes.   Michael Hingson ** 06:16 So you graduated, or I suppose I don't want to insult drumming, but you graduated from drumming to tap dancing, huh?   Ron Cocking ** 06:24 Well, I kept doing them both together. I would dance, and then when my dad would practice, I would beg him to just play a tune like the St Louis Blues, yeah, and so that I could keep time, so I pulled a little stool up in front of an easy chair, and one of the arms of the chair was the ride cymbal, and the other one was the crash cymbal, and the seat of the chair was my snare drum. I would play along with him. And eventually he got tired of that and bought a Hi Fi for my brother and I, and in the bedroom I had a Hi Fi, and I started to put together a set of drums, and I spent hours next to that, Hi Fi, banging on the drums, and I remember it made me feel good. One day, my mom finally said to me, you know, you're starting to sound pretty good, and that that was a landmark for me. I thought, wow, somebody is enjoying my drumming,   Michael Hingson ** 07:18 but you couldn't do drumming and tap dancing at the same time. That would have been a little bit of a challenge. A challenge.   Ron Cocking ** 07:23 No, I would practice that the drums in the afternoon and then head for the dance studio later. And in this case, I was a local boy. I grew up in Riverside California, and my first tap teacher was literally maybe two miles from our house. But that didn't last long. She got married and became pregnant and closed her studio, and then I she recommended that I go see this teacher in San Bernardino by the name of Vera Lynn. And which I did, I remember walking into this gigantic classroom with a bunch of really tall kids, and I was maybe seven or eight years old, and I guess it was kind of an audition class, but after that evening, I she put me in the most appropriate classes, one of which was ballet, which I wasn't too excited about, but they all told me, If you're going to be a serious dancer, even a tap dancer, you need to get the basic body placement from ballet classes. And I said, Well, I am not going to put any tights and a T shirt on. But they finally got me to do that because they told me that the Rams football team took ballet class twice a week at that time. Ah. Said, no kidding. So they got me, they they got you. They got me into ballet class, and then it was jazz, and then it was tumbling, and so I did it all.   Michael Hingson ** 08:43 I remember when we moved to California when I was five, and probably when I was about eight or nine, my brother and I were enrolled by my mother. I guess my parents enrolled us in a dance class. So I took dance class for a few years. I learned something about dancing. I did have a pair of tap shoes, although I didn't do a lot of it, but I, but I did dance and never, never really pursued it enough to become a Gene Kelly or Fred Astaire. Well, few of us do. I didn't dislike it. It just didn't happen. But that was okay, but it was fun to, you know, to do it and to learn something about that. And so I even today, I I remember it, and I appreciate it. So that's pretty cool.   Ron Cocking ** 09:32 Well, you would understand what I always told my students, that tap dancing is like singing a song with your feet. Yeah. And I would sing, I would say, you all know, happy birthday, right? So I would sing it, and they would sing it along, and then I'd said, then I would sing it again, and I would sing it totally out of rhythm. And they would wrinkle their nose and look at me and say, okay, so what are you doing? And I'd say, Well, you don't recognize it because the rhythm is not correct. So then I would. Would tap dance Happy birthday, and I'd say, you sing along in your mind and I'm going to tap dance it. And that would always ring a bell in their mind, like, Oh, I get it. The rhythm has to be right on the button, or the people aren't going to recognize   Michael Hingson ** 10:16 that was very clever to do.   Ron Cocking ** 10:18 Yeah, thank you. And they got it, yeah, they got it, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 10:22 which is even, even more important. That's pretty clever. Well, so you did that, and did you do it all the way through high school,   Ron Cocking ** 10:30 all the way through high school? And I think when I was 15, I was, I think I was in the eighth grade, maybe ninth, but I was 15 and got my first chance to I was cast in a professional show for San Bernardino civic light opera Association. And the show was My Fair Lady, and it was my English and journalism teacher at the junior high who had been cast. He was a performer also, but something came up and he couldn't follow through, so he had given the association my name, and I was out in the backyard. My mom came out. Said, Hey, San Bernardino clo just called and they want, they want to see it tonight at seven o'clock. So I put on my dance clothes and went over, and the director, by the name of Gosh, Gene Bayless, came out, and he showed me a couple of steps. And he said, Yeah, let's do it together. And he said, Boy, you unscramble your feet pretty well there kid. And he he looked over into the costumers and said, measure this guy. Let's put him in the show. So I was beside myself. And long story short, I Gosh, I'm over the over the years, I my first show was at age 15 with them, and I participated, did shows with them, until I think my last show, I was about 38 years old, and that last show was anything goes with Leslie uggums, wow.   Michael Hingson ** 11:52 So what part did you play on my fair lady?   Ron Cocking ** 11:55 I was just a chorus kid. I remember in the opening when Eliza sings, that wouldn't it be lovely? Wouldn't it be lovely? I was a street sweeper. I remember I had a broom, and there were three of us, and we were sweeping up that street and working in and around. Eliza Doolittle, of   Michael Hingson ** 12:11 course, being really spiteful. You just said a little while ago, you were beside yourself. And the thing that I got to say to that, quoting the Muppets, is, how do the two of you stand each other? But anyway, that's okay, good in the original Muppet Movie, that line is in there. And I it just came out so fast, but I heard it. I was going, Oh my gosh. I couldn't believe they did that. But anyway, it was so cute, very funny. That's great. So and then you were, you eventually were opposite Leslie UB,   Ron Cocking ** 12:39 yes, that was one of the high points talking about dancing and drumming at the same time. In fact, I used to give a drum a basic drum summer camp where I would teach tappers the basics of music notation, quarter notes, eighth notes, 16th notes. And then we would put a tap orchestra together. Everybody had their own music stand and their own drum pad. I would conduct, and we would play little pieces, and they would they would drum a rhythm, tap, a rhythm, drum, a rhythm, tap, a rhythm. And so anyway, it came full circle. One of the highlights of my dance slash drumming career was this show I did with Leslie uggums, the director had done this prior, and he knew it would work, and so so did the conductor in the entre Act. The top of the second act, the pit orchestra starts and plays like eight measures. And then there were six of us on stage, behind the main curtain, and we would play the next 16 bars, and then we would toss it back to the pit, and then toss it back to us, and the curtain would begin to rise, and we were right into the first song that Leslie uggums sang to get into the second act. Then she wanted to add a couple of songs that she liked, and she was very popular in with the audiences in San Bernardino, so she added a couple of songs, and I got to play those songs with her and and that was just so thrilling. And I with the scene finished, I had to have my tap shoes on, on the drum set. I had to hop down from the riser, and came out, brought one of my Toms with me, and played along with another featured tap dancer that kind of took over the scene at that point. So it was, it was really cool.   Michael Hingson ** 14:31 So with all this drumming, did you ever meet anyone like buddy rip?   Ron Cocking ** 14:35 No, I never met any famous drummers except a man by the name of Jack Sperling, which was one of my drumming idols,   Michael Hingson ** 14:44 Donnie Carson was quite the drummer, as I recall,   Ron Cocking ** 14:48 yeah, he did play yeah and boy, his his drummer, Ed Shaughnessy on his on The Tonight Show was phenomenal. Yeah, he's another of my favorites, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 14:57 well, and I remember. I guess Johnny Carson and Buddy Rich played together, which was kind of fun. They   Ron Cocking ** 15:07 played together, and so did Ed Shaughnessy and Buddy Rich did a little competition on the show one time I realized, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 15:15 right, yeah. Well, and it's interesting to see some of the performers do that. I remember once trying to remember whether what show it was on, maybe it was also a Tonight Show where Steve Martin substituted for Johnny, but he and the steel Canyon, the Steve Canyon band, came out. Of course, he was great on the band, and then flat and Scruggs or flat came out. Or which one? Yeah, which one did the banjo flat, I think, but they, but they banjo together, which was fun?   Ron Cocking ** 15:51 Oh, wow, yeah, yeah. Steve Martin is a tremendous band. He is, Whoa, yeah. I,   Michael Hingson ** 15:56 I have a hard time imagining fingers moving that fast, but that's okay, me too. I saved my fingers for Braille, so it's okay. So where did you go to college?   Ron Cocking ** 16:07 I went to for two years to Riverside City College, Riverside Community College, and then I went for two years to San Bernardino Cal State, San Bernardino, and I was majoring in English because I thought I may want to do some writing. But in the meantime, I became married, I became a father, and so I was trying to work and study and maintain a family life, and I just couldn't do it all. So I didn't quite finish a major at Cal State San Bernardino. I continued actually a nightclub drumming career. And now, now we're getting up to where this our performing arts studio began between Gloria and I.   Michael Hingson ** 16:50 So was it? GLORIA? You married first?   Ron Cocking ** 16:53 No, okay, no, Gloria was married. Gloria was a prior, prior marriage for 20 some years, or 20 years, I guess. And I had been married only two years, I think. And when we first, well, we actually met while we were both. I'll tell you the story in a minute, if you want to hear it. Sure, the first time I ever met Gloria Macmillan, I had no idea who she was, because she her name was Gloria Allen at the time that was, that was her married name that she took after the arm is Brooks TV show. Well, she took that the new name before the TV show even ended. But I was choreographing a children's summer musical, and the director came up said, hey, I want you to meet this young lady's mom. So the young lady was Gloria's daughter, her oldest daughter, Janet. And I said, Sure. So he said, This is Gloria. Allen, Gloria, this is Ron. And we shook hands, and I said, Nice to meet you. And that was it. And so the show happened. It ran for a couple of weeks, and Gloria was a wonderful stage mom. She she never bothered anyone. She watched the show. She was very supportive of her daughter. Didn't, didn't stage manage   Michael Hingson ** 18:09 whatsoever, which wasn't a helicopter mom, which is good,   Ron Cocking ** 18:12 definitely that, which was just really cool. So and so I was maybe three, four years later, so Gloria obviously knew that I could dance, because she had seen me choreographed. So I got a phone call from Gloria Allen, and I said, Okay, I remember her. She wanted to meet because she was thinking about starting an acting school and wanted someone to teach actors some dance movement. So I went over for a interview and took my little at that time, about two and a half year old, daughter, three year old, and we chatted, and oh my gosh, I just this, this beautiful woman swept me off my feet. And of course, I by the end of the conversation, I said, Gosh, you know, we talked about how we would integrate the acting and the dance, and I said, Can I have your phone number? Nope, I got the old well, we'll call you. Don't call us. And so I had to wait for a few days before I got a call back, but I got a call back, and I don't remember a lot of details, but the sparks flew really, really quickly, and we started planning our school. And if you can believe that this was 1973 when we started planning, maybe it was early 74 and we invested a whole total of $800 to get ourselves into business. We bought a record player, some mirrors, some paint, and a business license and a little shingle to hang out front. We had a little one room studio, and we. Opened on November 4, 1974 and we would close the studio on June 30, 2018 Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 20:08 Yeah. So you, you had it going for quite a while, almost, well, actually, more than 40 years. 44 years. 44 years, yes. And you got married along the way.   Ron Cocking ** 20:20 Well along the way, my my wife always said she fell in love with my daughter, and then she had to take me along with her. Yeah. Well, there you go. So we were together constantly, just running the school together. And then eventually I moved over to San Bernardino, and it was, gosh, some 1213, years later, we got married in on June 28 1987 and but nothing really changed, because we had already been living together and raising five children. GLORIA had four from a private prior marriage, and I had my little girl. So we we got all these five kids through elementary and junior high in high school, and they all went to college. And they're all beautiful kids and productive citizens, two of them still in show biz. Her son, my stepson, Christopher Allen, is a successful producer now and of Broadway shows. And our daughter, Barbara Bermudez, the baby that Gloria fell in love with. She's now a producer slash stage manager director. She does really well at big events with keynote speakers. And she'll, if they want her to, she will hire in everything from lighting and sound to extra performers and that sort of thing. And she's, she's just busy constantly all over the world, wow.   Michael Hingson ** 21:43 Well, that's pretty cool. And what are the other three doing?   Ron Cocking ** 21:47 One is a VP of Sales for it's a tub and shower company, jacuzzi, and the other one is a married housewife, but now she is a grandmother and has two little grandkids, and they that's Janet, the one that I originally had worked with in that children's show. And she and her husband live in Chino Hills, California, which is about 40 minutes from here. I live in Huntington Beach, California now,   Michael Hingson ** 22:14 well, and I'm not all that far away from you. We're in Victorville. Oh, Victorville, okay, yeah, the high desert. So the next time you go to Vegas, stop by on your way, I'll do that, since that's mainly what Victorville is probably most known for. I remember when I was growing I grew up in Palmdale, and Palmdale wasn't very large. It only had like about 20 703,000 people. But as I described it to people, Victorville wasn't even a speck on a radar scope compared to Palmdale at that time. Yeah, my gosh, are over 120,000 people in this town?   Ron Cocking ** 22:51 Oh, I remember the drive in the early days from here to Vegas in that you really felt like you could get out on the road all alone and relax and take it all in, and now it can be trafficking all all the   Speaker 1 ** 23:04 way. Yeah, it's crazy. I don't know. I still think they need to do something to put some sort of additional infrastructure, and there's got to be another way to get people to Vegas and back without going on i 15, because it is so crowded, especially around holidays, that one of these days, somebody will get creative. Maybe they'll get one of Tesla's tunnel boring tools, and they'll make a tunnel, and you can go underground the whole way, I don't know,   Ron Cocking ** 23:32 but that would be, that would be great. Something like that would happen.   Michael Hingson ** 23:38 Well, so you you started the school and and that did, pretty cool. Did, did Gloria do any more acting after our Miss Brooks? And then we should explain our Miss Brooks is a show that started on radio. Yes, it went on to television, and it was an arm is Brooks. Miss Brooks played by e vardin. Was a teacher at Madison High, and the principal was Osgood Conklin, played by Gail Gordon, who was absolutely perfect for the part. He was a crotchety old curmudgeon by any standards. And Gloria played his daughter, Harriet correct. And so when it went from radio to television, one of the things that strikes me about armas Brooks and a couple of those shows, burns and Allen, I think, is sort of the same. Jack Benny was a little different. But especially armas Brooks, it just seems to me like they they took the radio shows and all they did was, did the same shows. They weren't always the same plots, but it was, it was radio on television. So you, you had the same dialog. It was really easy for me to follow, and it was, was fascinating, because it was just like the radio shows, except they were on television.   Ron Cocking ** 24:56 Yeah, pretty much. In fact, there were a lot, there's lots of episodes. Episodes that are even named the same name as they had on the radio, and they're just have to be reworked for for the television screen,   Michael Hingson ** 25:08 yeah, but the the dialog was the same, which was so great,   Ron Cocking ** 25:13 yeah, yeah. And to see what was I going to add, it was our Miss Brooks was one of the very few radio shows that made the transition to television with the cast with the same intact. Yeah, everybody looked like they sounded. So it worked when they were in front of the camera. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 25:33 it sort of worked with Jack Benny, because most of the well, all the characters were in it, Don Wilson, Mary, Livingston, Dennis day, Rochester, world, yeah. And of course, Mel Blanc, yeah, oh.   Ron Cocking ** 25:49 GLORIA tells a story. She she and her mom, Hazel, were walking down the street on the way to do a radio show in the old days in Hollywood, and here comes Mel blank, he says, he pulls over. Says, Hey, where are you girls headed because I know that he probably recognized them from being at at CBS all the time, and they said, We're headed to CBS. He said, hop in. Oh, that's where I'm going. So Mel Brooks gave her a ride to the Mel Blanc, yeah, would have been   Michael Hingson ** 26:15 fun if Mel Brooks had but that's okay, Young Frankenstein, but that's another story. It is. But that's that's cool. So did they ever? Did she ever see him any other times? Or was that it?   Ron Cocking ** 26:30 No, I think that was it. That's the one story that she has where Mel Blanc is involved.   Michael Hingson ** 26:36 What a character, though. And of course, he was the man of a million voices, and it was just incredible doing I actually saw a couple Jack Benny shows this morning and yesterday. One yesterday, he was Professor LeBlanc teaching Jack Benny how to play the violin, which was a lost cause.   Ron Cocking ** 26:59 Actually, Jack Benny was not a bad view. No,   Michael Hingson ** 27:01 he wasn't violent. No, he wasn't. He had a lot of fun with it, and that stick went straight in from radio to television, and worked really well, and people loved it, and you knew what was going to happen, but it didn't matter. But it was still   Ron Cocking ** 27:16 funny, and I'm sure during the transition they there was a little bit of panic in the writers department, like, okay, what are we going to do? We got to come up with a few shows. We got to get ahead a little bit. So the writing being just a little different, I'm sure that's part of the reason why they went back and kind of leaned on the old, old script somewhat, until they kind of cut their teeth on the new this new thing called television   Michael Hingson ** 27:39 well, but they still kept a lot of the same routines in one way or another.   Ron Cocking ** 27:45 Yeah, when they work, they work, whether you're just listening or whether you're watching,   Michael Hingson ** 27:48 right, exactly what other shows made it from radio to television with the cast   Ron Cocking ** 27:53 intact? You know, I am not up on that number. I   Michael Hingson ** 27:57 know there were a couple that did. RMS, Brooks was, well, oh no, I was gonna say Abbott and Costello, but that was different, but our Miss Brooks certainly did. If   Ron Cocking ** 28:09 the Bickersons did, I forget the two actors that did that show, but that was a really, Francis   Michael Hingson ** 28:13 Langford and Donna Michi could be, but I think burns and Allen, I think, kept the same people as much as there were. Harry bonzell was still with them, and so on. But it was interesting to see those. And I'm awake early enough in the morning, just because it's a good time to get up, and I get and be real lazy and go slowly to breakfast and all that. But I watched the Benny show, and occasionally before it, I'll watch the burns and Allen show. And I think that the plots weren't as similar from radio to television on the burns and Allen show as they weren't necessarily in the Benny show, but, but it all worked.   Ron Cocking ** 28:58 Yeah, yeah. That's why they were on the air for so long?   Michael Hingson ** 29:02 Yeah, so what other kind of acting did Gloria do once? So you guys started the school   Ron Cocking ** 29:10 well after she well, when we started the school, we found ourselves, you know, raising five children. And so I continued playing nightclub gigs. I had one, one nightclub job for like, five years in a row with two wonderful, wonderful musicians that were like fathers to me. And Gloria actually went to work for her brother in law, and she became a salesperson, and eventually the VP of Sales for a fiberglass tub and shower business down here in Santa Ana. So she drove that 91 freeway from San Bernardino, Santa Ana, all the time. But in,   Michael Hingson ** 29:47 yeah, you could do it back then, much more than now. It was a little better   Ron Cocking ** 29:51 and but in, but twist in between, she managed. Her mom still did a little bit of agency. And she would call Gloria and say. Want you to go see so and so. She did an episode of perfect strangers. She did an episode with Elliot of the guy that played Elliot Ness, stack the show Robert Stack the show was called Help Wanted no see. I guess that was an in but wanted, anyway, she did that. She did a movie with Bruce Dern and Melanie Griffith called Smile. And so she kept, she kept her foot in the door, but, but not, not all that much she she really enjoyed when John Wilder, one of her childhood acting buddies, who she called her brother, and he still calls her sis, or he would call her sis, still. His name was Johnny McGovern when he was a child actor, and when he decided to try some movie work, he there was another Johnny McGovern in Screen Actors Guild, so he had to change his name to John Wyler, but he did that mini series called centennial, and he wanted Gloria for a specific role, to play a German lady opposite the football player Alex Karras. And they had a couple of really nice scenes together. I think she was in three, maybe four of the segments. And there were many segments, it was like a who's who in Hollywood, the cast of that show   Michael Hingson ** 31:28 does that was pretty cool.   Ron Cocking ** 31:32 But anyway, yeah, after Gloria finished armas Brooks, she became married to Gilbert Allen, who, who then became a Presbyterian minister. So Gloria, when you said, Did she continue acting? There's a lot of acting that goes on being a minister and being a minister's wife, and she would put together weddings for people, and that sort of thing. And she did that for 20 years. Wow. So she Gloria was a phenomenon. She did so many things. And she did them all so very well, in my   Speaker 1 ** 32:04 opinion. And so did you? Yeah, which is, which is really cool. So you, but you, you both started the school, and that really became your life's passion for 44 years. Yes,   Ron Cocking ** 32:16 we would get up in the mornings, go do a little business, come home, have a little lunch, go back about 132 o'clock, and we would normally crank up about four after the kids get out of school, and we would teach from four to nine, sometimes to 10. Go out, have some dinner. So yeah, we pretty much 24/7 and we had had such similar backgrounds. Hers on a national radio and television scale, and mine on a much more local, civic light opera scale. But we both had similar relations with our our moms after after the radio tapings and the TV things. GLORIA And her mom. They lived in Beverly Hills, right at Wilshire and Doheny, and they had their favorite chocolate and ice cream stops. And same thing for me, my mom would take me there, two doors down from the little studio where I was taking my tap classes. There was an ice cream parlor, haywoods ice cream. And that was, that was the the lure, if you go in and if you do your practicing, Ronnie, you can, I'll take it for an ice cream so that I did my practicing, had plenty of little treats on the way, so we had that in common, and we both just had very supportive moms that stayed out of the way, not, not what I would call a pushy parent, or, I think you mentioned the helicopter, helicopter, but it   Michael Hingson ** 33:37 but it sounds like you didn't necessarily need the bribes to convince you to tap dance, as you know, anyway, but they didn't hurt.   Ron Cocking ** 33:46 No, it didn't hurt at all, and it was something to look forward to, but I I just enjoyed it all along. Anyway, I finally got to to really showcase what I could do when I was cast as the dance director in the show 42nd street. Oh, wow. And I was lucky. We were lucky. San Bernardino clo was able to hire John Engstrom, who had done the show on Broadway. The earlier version that came, I think it was on Broadway in the mid or to late 70s. He had worked side by side with Gower Champion putting the show together. He told us all sorts of stories about how long it took Gower to put together that opening dance. Because everything in the opening number you you see those steps later in the show done by the chorus, because the opening number is an audition for dancers who want to be in this new Julian Marsh show. So the music starts, the audience hears, I know there must have been 20 of us tapping our feet off. And then a few seconds later, the curtain rises about two and a half feet. And then they see all these tapping feet. And then the main curtain goes out, and there we all are. And. I my part. I was facing upstage with my back to the audience, and then at some point, turned around and we did it was the most athletic, difficult, two and a half minute tap number I had ever done, I'll bet. But it was cool. There were five or six kids that had done it on Broadway and the national tour. And then during that audition, one more high point, if we have the time, we I was auditioning just like everybody else. The director had called and asked if I would audition, but he wasn't going to be choreographing. John Engstrom was so with there was probably 50 or 60 kids of all ages, some adults auditioning, and at one point, John pulled out one of the auditioners, and he happened to be one of my male tap dance students. And he said, Now I want everybody to watch Paul do this step. Paul did the step. He said, Now he said, Paul, someone is really teaching you well. He said, everybody that's the way to do a traveling timestamp so and that, you know, I'll remember that forever. And it ended up he hired. There were seven myself and seven other of my students were cast in that show. And some of them, some of them later, did the show in Las Vegas, different directors. But yeah, that, that was a high point for me.   Speaker 1 ** 36:19 I'm trying to remember the first time I saw 42nd street. I think I've seen it twice on Broadway. I know once, but we also saw it once at the Lawrence Welk Resorts condo there, and they did 42nd street. And that was a lot of that show was just a lot of fun. Anyway,   Ron Cocking ** 36:39 it's a fun show. And as John said in that show, The chorus is the star of the show.   Speaker 1 ** 36:45 Yeah, it's all about dancing by any by any definition, any standard. It's a wonderful show. And anybody who is listening or watching, if you ever get a chance to go see 42nd street do it, it is, it is. Well, absolutely, well worth it.   Ron Cocking ** 37:00 Yeah, good. Good show. Fantastic music, too. Well.   Michael Hingson ** 37:03 How did you and Gloria get along so well for so long, basically, 24 hours a day, doing everything together that that I would think you would even be a little bit amazed, not that you guys couldn't do it, but that you did it so well, and so many people don't do it well,   Ron Cocking ** 37:21 yeah, I don't know I from, from the the first time we met, we just seemed to be on the same wavelength. And by the way, I found out as time went by, Gloria was like Mrs. Humble. She wasn't a bragger, very humble. And it took me a while to find out what an excellent tap dancer she was. But when we went to the studio in the early days, we had, we just had one room. So she would teach actors for an hour, take a break. I would go in teach a tap class or a movement class or a ballet class. I in the early days, I taught, I taught it all. I taught ballet and jazz and and and and   Michael Hingson ** 38:01 tap. Well, let's let's be honest, she had to be able to tap dance around to keep ahead of Osgoode Conklin, but that's another story.   Ron Cocking ** 38:09 Yeah. So yeah, that. And as our studio grew, we would walk every day from our first studio down to the corner to a little wind chills donut shop wind chills donuts to get some coffee and come back. And about a year and a half later, after walking by this, this retail vacant spot that was two doors from our studio, we said, I wonder if that might be, you know, something for us, it had a four lease sign. So, long story short, we released it. The owner of the property loved knowing that Gloria Macmillan was that space. And so luckily, you know when things are supposed to happen. They happen as people would move out next to us, we would move in. So we ended up at that particular studio with five different studio rooms. Wow. And so then we can accommodate all of the above, acting, singing classes, all the dance disciplines, all at the same time, and we can, like, quadruple our student body. So then we made another move, because the neighborhood was kind of collapsing around us, we made another room and purchased a building that had been built as a racquetball club. It had six racquetball courts, all 20 by 40, beautiful hardwood. We made four of them, five of them into studios, and then there was a double racquetball racquetball court in the front of the building which they had tournaments in it was 40 by 40 we moved. We made that into a black box theater for Gloria. And the back wall of the theater was one inch glass outside of which the audiences for the racquetball tournaments used to sit. But outside the glass for us, we had to put curtains there, and out front for us was our. Gigantic lobby. The building was 32,000 square feet. Wow, we could it just made our heart, hearts sing when we could walk down that hallway and see a ballet class over here, a tap class over there, singers, singing actors in the acting room. It was beautiful. And again, it was just meant for us because it was our beautiful daughter, Kelly, who passed away just nine months after Gloria did. She's the one that said, you guys ought to look into that. And I said, Well, it's a racquetball court. But again, the first moment we walked in the front door, you start. We started thinking like, whoa. I think we could make this work. And it worked for another 20 years for us and broke our hearts to basically rip it apart, tear the theater down, and everything when we were moving out, because we we couldn't find another studio that was interested in in coming in, because they would have had to purchase the building. We wanted to sell the building. Yeah. So anyway, of all things, they now sell car mufflers out of there.   Michael Hingson ** 41:02 That's a little different way, way. Yeah, social shock, did any of your students become pretty well known in the in the entertainment world?   Ron Cocking ** 41:11 I wouldn't say well known, but a lot of them have worked a lot and made careers. Some of our former students are now in their 50s, middle 50s, pushing 60, and have done everything from cruise ship to Las Vegas to regional some national tours, even our son, Christopher, he did the national tour of meet me in St Louis with Debbie Boone, okay, and he's the one that is Now a successful producer. He's his latest hit. Well, his first, what can be considered legitimately a Broadway hit show was the show called shucked, and it opened about two years ago, I think, and I finally got to go back to New York and see it just a month before it closed. Very hilarious. Takes place in Iowa. The whole show is built around a county in which everybody that lives there makes their living off of corn, making whiskey. And it is a laugh, way more than a laugh a minute. But anyway, we had one of Gloria's acting students who was hired on with a Jonathan Winters TV sitcom called Davis rules. It ran for two seasons, and here he was like 16 or 17 years old, making, I think it was. He was making $8,000 a week, and he was in heaven. He looked like the Son he played, the grandson of Jonathan Winters and the son of Randy Quaid and so he, yeah, he was in heaven. And then after that, he did a very popular commercial, the 711 brain freeze commercial for Slurpee. The Slurpee, yeah, and he made the so much money from that, but then he kind of disappeared from showbiz. I don't know what he's doing nowadays,   Speaker 1 ** 43:00 but it's, it's, it's interesting to, you know, to hear the stories. And, yeah, I can understand that, that not everybody gets to be so famous. Everybody knows them, but it's neat that you had so many people who decided to make entertainment a career. So clearly, you had a pretty good influence on a lot of, a lot of kids.   Ron Cocking ** 43:20 Yes, I over the years, Gloria and I felt like we had 1000s of children of our own, that they that we had raised together. It's really a good feeling. And I still get phone calls. We got a phone call once a few years back from from one of our students who had been trying to crack the nut in New York, and she called us like 530 in the morning, because, of course, it was Yeah, but she had just signed her first national tour contract and was going to go out with the show cabaret. So fortunately, we were able to drive up to Santa not let's see, it's just below San San Jose. The show came through San Jose, and we got to see her up there. But those kinds of things are what made us keep teaching, year after year, all these success stories. Of course, we have former students that are now lawyers. Those are actors. Well, we   Michael Hingson ** 44:17 won't hold it and we understand, yeah and they are actors, by all means. How many teachers did you have in the studio when you had the big building?   Ron Cocking ** 44:26 Gosh, at one time, we had 10 or 12 teachers, teaching vocal teachers, two or three ballet teachers, jazz teachers, and you both taught as well. And we both continued teaching all through that time. We never just became managers, although that's that was part of it, and mixing business with art is a challenge, and it takes kind of a different mindset, and then what an unstoppable mindset you have to have in order to mix business with performing, because it's too. Different sides of your brain and a lot of patience and a lot of patience. And guess who taught me patience? Uh huh, Gloria Macmillan.   Michael Hingson ** 45:09 I would Conklin's daughter, yes, and I'll bet that's where she learned patience. No, I'm just teasing, but yeah, I hear you, yeah. Well, I know Karen and I were married for 40 years, until she passed in November of 2022 and there's so many similarities in what you're talking about, because we we could do everything together. We had challenges. Probably the biggest challenge that we ever had was we were living in Vista California, and I was working in Carlsbad, and the president of our company decided that we should open an office, because I was being very successful at selling to the government, we should open an office in the DC area. And so we both got excited about that. But then one day he came in and he had this epiphany. He said, No, not Virginia. I want you to open an office in New York. And Karen absolutely hated that she was ready to go to Virginia and all that.   Speaker 1 ** 46:15 But the problem for me was it was either move to New York or take a sales territory that didn't sell very much anymore. The owner wasn't really willing to discuss it, so we had some challenges over that, but the marriage was strong enough that it that it worked out, and we moved to New Jersey, and Karen made a lot of friends back there, but, you know, we always did most everything together. And then when the pandemic occurred, being locked down, it just proved all the more we just did everything together. We were together. We talked a lot, which is, I think one of the keys to any good marriages, and you talk and communicate.   Ron Cocking ** 46:56 Yes, in fact, when after we closed the studio in 2018 it took us a few more months to sell our home, and then when we moved down here, it was only about, I don't know, I don't know if it was a full year or not, but the pandemic hit and but it really didn't bother us, because we had, we had been working the teaching scene for so many years that we basically Were done. We basically walked out of the studio. We did. Neither of us have the desire to, well, let's continue in at some level, no, we cherished our time together. We have a little porch out in front of our home here, and it gets the ocean breeze, and we would sit for hours and chat. And oddly enough, not oddly, one of our favorite things to do, we have a website that we went to that had, I think, every radio show of armas Brooks ever made. And we would sit listen to those and just laugh. And, in fact, Gloria, there are some. She said, You know what? I don't even remember that episode at all. So yeah, that that was an interesting part. But yeah, Gloria and I, like your wife and you really enjoyed time together. We never talked about needing separate vacations or anything if we wanted to do something. We did it   Speaker 1 ** 48:16 together, yeah, and we did too. And you know, for us it was, it was out of desire, but also was easier for us, because she was in a wheelchair her whole life. I was I'm blind. I've been blind my whole life. And as I tell people, the marriage worked out well. She read, I pushed, and in reality, that really is the way it worked, yeah, yeah. Until she started using a power chair. Then I didn't push. I kept my toes out of the way. But still, it was, it was really did meld and mesh together very well and did everything   Ron Cocking ** 48:49 together. That's fantastic. I'm proud of you, Michael, and it really   Michael Hingson ** 48:53 it's the only way to go. So I miss her, but like, I keep telling people she's somewhere monitoring me, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. So I got to be a good kid,   Ron Cocking ** 49:04 and I'll hear I'll get some notes tonight from the spirit of Gloria McMillan too. I prayed to her before I went on. I said, please let the words flow and please not let me say anything that's inappropriate. And I think she's guided me through okay so far.   Michael Hingson ** 49:20 Well, if, if you do something you're not supposed to, she's gonna probably hit you upside the head. You know, did you two ever actually get to perform together?   Ron Cocking ** 49:30 Oh, I'm glad you asked that, because, well, it had been years since I knew that she was a darn good tap dancer. In fact, I had a tap dancing ensemble of of my more advanced kids, and if they wanted to dedicate the extra time that it took, we rehearsed them and let them perform at free of charge once they made it to that group, they they did not pay to come in and rehearse with me, because I would spend a lot of time standing there creating so. So we were doing a performance, and we wanted to spotlight, I forget the exact reason why we wanted to spotlight some of Gloria's career. Talk about radio a little bit. And I said, Gloria, would you do a little soft shoe routine? And because we had invited a mutual friend of ours, Walden Hughes, from the reps organization, and he was going to be the guest of honor, so I talked her into it. At first she wasn't going to go for it, but we had so much fun rehearsing it together. And it wasn't a long routine, it was relatively short, beautiful music, little soft shoe, and it was so much fun to say that we actually tap danced together. But the other times that we actually got to work together was at the old time radio conventions, mostly with reps, and that's really when I got to sit on stage. I was kind of typecast as an announcer, and I got to do some commercials. I got to sing once with Lucy arnazza. Oh, life, a life boy soap commercial. But when Gloria, Well, Gloria did the lead parts, and oh my gosh, that's when I realized what a superb actress she was. And if I don't know if you've heard of Greg Oppenheimer, his father, Jess Oppenheimer created the I Love Lucy shows, and so Gloria loved Jess Oppenheimer. And so Greg Oppenheimer, Jess Son, did a lot of directing, and oh my gosh, I would see he came in very well prepared and knew how the lines should be delivered. And if Gloria was not right on it, he would say, No, wait a minute, Gloria, I want you to emphasize the word decided, and that's going to get the laugh. And when he gave her a reading like that man, the next time she went through that dialog, just what he had asked for. And I thought, Oh my gosh. And her timing, after watching so many armist Brooks TV and listening to radio shows. GLORIA learned her comedic timing from one of the princesses of comedy timing is Eve Arden, right? They were so well for obvious reasons. They were so very similar. And if you have time to story for another story, do you know have you heard of Bob Hastings? He was the lieutenant on McHale's navy. McHale's Navy, right? Yeah. Well, he also did a lot of old time radio. So we went up to Seattle,   Michael Hingson ** 52:32 our two grandkids, Troy Amber, he played, not Archie. Was it Henry Aldridge? He was on,   Ron Cocking ** 52:40 I think you're right. I'm not too up on the cast of the old time radio show. Yeah, I think you're right. But anyway, he was there, and there was an actress that had to bow out. I don't know who that was, but our grandsons and Gloria and I, we walked in, and as usual, we say hi to everybody. We're given a big packet of six or eight scripts each, and we go to our room and say, Oh my gosh. Get out the pencils, and we start marking our scripts. So we get a phone call from Walden, and he said, hey, Ron Bob. Bob Hastings wants to see Gloria in his room. He wants to read through he's not sure if he wants to do the Bickersons script, because he you know, the gal bowed out and right, you know, so Gloria went down   Michael Hingson ** 53:23 couple of doors, coming   Ron Cocking ** 53:26 Yes, and she so she came back out of half an hour, 40 minutes later, and she said, well, that little stinker, he was auditioning me. He went in and she went in and he said, Well, you know, I don't know if I want to do this. It doesn't seem that funny to me. Let's read a few lines. Well, long story short, they read the whole thing through, and they were both, they were both rolling around the floor. I'll bet they laughing and so and then jump to the following afternoon, they did it live, and I was able to watch. I had some pre time, and I watched, and they were just fantastic together. I left after the show, I went to the green room, had a little snack, and I was coming back to our room, walking down the hall, and here comes Bob Hastings, and he says, oh, Ron. He said, Your wife was just fantastic. So much better than the other girl would have been. So when I told GLORIA That story that made her her day, her week. She felt so good about that. So that's my Bob Hastings story. Bob Hastings and Gloria Macmillan were great as the Bickersons.   Speaker 1 ** 54:29 Yeah, that was a very clever show. It started on the Danny Thomas show, and then they they ended up going off and having their own show, Francis Langford and Donna Michi, but they were very clever.   Ron Cocking ** 54:42 Now, did you realize when now that you mentioned Danny Thomas? Did you realize that Gloria's mom, Hazel McMillan, was the first female agent, talent agent in Hollywood? No, and that's how you know when the. They moved from from Portland, Oregon, a little city outside of Portland. They moved because Gloria's mom thought she had talent enough to do radio, and it wasn't a year after they got here to LA that she did her first national show for Lux radio at the age of five. That was in 1937 with with Edward G Robinson. I've got a recording of that show. What's what show was it? It was a Christmas show. And I don't remember the name of the of it, but it was a Christmas show. It was Walden that sent us. Sent   Michael Hingson ** 55:33 it to us. I'll find it. I've got it, I'm sure.   Ron Cocking ** 55:35 And so, yeah, so, so Gloria was a member of what they called the 500 club. There was a group of, I don't know, nine or 10 kids that by the time the photograph that I have of this club, it looks like Gloria is around 12 to 14 years old, and they had all done 500 or more radio shows. Wow, that's a lot of radio show. There's a lot of radio So Gloria did, I mean, I got a short my point was, her mom was an agent, and when Gloria was working so consistently at armas Brooks, she said, Well, I'm kind of out of a job. I don't need to take you. GLORIA could drive then. And so she came back from the grocery store, Ralph's market near Wilshire and Doheny, and she came back said, Well, I know what I'm going to do. I ran into this cute little boy at the grocery store. I'm going to represent him for television. And she that's, she started the Hazel McMillan agency, and she ran that agency until she just couldn't anymore. I think she ran it until early 1980s but she, my god, she represented people like Angela Cartwright on the Danny Thomas show and Kathy Garver on, all in the family a family affair. Family Affair. Yeah. Jane north. Jane North went in for Dennis the Menace. He didn't get the role. He came back said, Hazel, I don't think they liked me, and they didn't. They didn't call me back or anything. Hazel got on that phone, said, Look, I know this kid can do what you're asking for. I want you to see him again. He went back and they read him again. He got the part, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 57:21 and he was perfect for it.   Ron Cocking ** 57:22 He was perfect for that part was, I'm sorry.   Michael Hingson ** 57:27 It's sad that he passed earlier this year.   Ron Cocking ** 57:29 Yeah, he passed and he had, he had a tough life, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 57:36 well, you know, tell me you, you have what you you have some favorite words of wisdom. Tell me about those.   Ron Cocking ** 57:45 Oh, this goes back to the reason why I came across this when I was looking for something significant to say on the opening of one of our big concert programs. We used to do all of our shows at the California theater of Performing Arts in San Bernardino, it's a really, a real gem of a theater. It's where Will Rogers gave his last performance. And so I came across this, and it's, I don't know if this is biblical, you might, you might know, but it's, if you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If you teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. And that's what I felt like Gloria and I were trying to do. We wanted to teach these kids as as professionally. We treated our students as they were, as if they were little professionals. We we expected quality, we expected them to work hard, but again, Gloria taught me patience, unending patience. But we knew that we wanted them to feel confident when the time came, that they would go out and audition. We didn't want them to be embarrassed. We want we wanted them to be able to come back to us and say, Boy, I felt so good at that audition. I knew all the steps I was and I and I read so well it was. And thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And so that aspect of it, we felt that we were feeding them for a lifetime, but we also were creating all of these arts patrons, all these lovers of the arts, 1000s of kids now love to go to musicals and movies and plays because they've kind of been there and done that at our studio. And so anyway, that's and whether, whether or not it was their confidence in show business or whether it was their confidence we've had so many calls from and visits from parents and former students saying, Boy, I just was awarded a job. And they said my my communication skills were excellent, and I owe that to Gloria. I was on the beach the other day, and I looked over and there was this young man and his wife. I assumed it was his wife. It was they were setting. Up their beach chairs, and I looked and I say, Excuse me, is your name Brandon? And he said, No, but he said, Is your name Ron? And I said, Yes. He said, No, my name is Eric. And I said, Eric puentes. And so we reminisced for a while. He took tap from me. He took acting from Gloria, and he said, you know, he was sad to hear of Gloria's passing. And he said, You know, I owe so much to Gloria. I learned so much about speaking in front of groups. And he is now a minister. He has his own church in Redlands, California, and he's a minister. And of all the billion people on the beach, he sits next to me. So that's one of those things when it's supposed to   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:41 happen. It happens. It does. Yeah, well, and as we talked about earlier, you and Gloria did lots of stuff with reps, and I'm going to miss it this time, but I've done a few, and I'm going to do some more. What I really enjoy about people who come from the radio era, and who have paid attention to the radio era is that the acting and the way they project is so much different and so much better than people who have no experience with radio. And I know Walden and I have talked about the fact that we are looking to get a grant at some point so that we can train actors or people who want to be involved in these shows, to be real actors, and who will actually go back and listen to the shows, listen to what people did, and really try to bring that forward into the recreations, because so many people who haven't really had the experience, or who haven't really listened to radio programs sound so forced, as opposed to natural.   Ron Cocking ** 1:01:46 I agree, and I know exactly what you're saying. In fact, Walden on a couple of at least two or three occasions, he allowed us to take some of Gloria's acting students all the way to Seattle, and we did some in for the spurred vac organization Los Angeles, we did a beautiful rendition of a script that we adapted of the Velveteen Rabbit. And of all people, Janet Waldo agreed to do the fairy at the end, and she was exquisite. And it's only like, I don't know, four or five lines, and, oh my gosh, it just wrapped it up with a satin bow. And, but, but in some of our kids, yeah, they, they, they were very impressed by the radio, uh, recreations that they were exposed to at that convention.   Speaker 1 ** 1:02:37 Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's, it is so wonderful to hear some of these actors who do it so well, and to really see how they they are able to pull some of these things together and make the shows a lot better. And I hope that we'll see more of that. I hope that we can actually work to teach more people how to really deal with acting from a standpoint of radio,   Ron Cocking ** 1:03:04 that's a great idea. And I know Walden is really sensitive to that. He Yeah, he would really be a proponent of that.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:10 Oh, he and I have talked about it. We're working on it. We're hoping we can get some things. Well, I want to thank you for being here. We've been doing this an hour already.