Light After Trauma

All good things must eventually come to an end. I thank you from the very depths of my heart for this wonderful journey!     I am so excited to be teaching my first online course! Learn more and sign up below! https://www.eeglearn.com/wwb There are so many contradictory ideas about what it means to be healthy. Diet culture and the weight-loss industry will have you believing that you need to work out every day and restrict your calorie intake in order to be the best version of yourself. In this course, we cover topics such as why diets ultimately don't work, how fat phobia has impacted our society, how to become an intuitive eater, and how to avoid falling into dieting and eating disorder traps that society has set up for us. This course is for you if you: -are burnt out from trying diet after diet -are a parent who wants to make sure diet culture isn't harming your child -are a therapist who is looking for continuing education credits (CEUs) -are a mental health provider who works with people with eating disorders You have two course options to choose from: A 3-Session Pathway and a 4-Session Pathway. Both includes three general lectures on the topics above. The 4-Session pathway is designed for existing neurofeedback providers. Details about each pathway can be found below. General Sessions September 22, September 29, and October 6, 2022 6:00 PM - 8:00 PM ET Additional Neurofeedback Session This session is designed for existing Nuro feedback providers to take what they learned in the first three sessions and apply it to their clinical work. We will discuss, in-depth, the theory and progression of working with clients and eating issues or disorders using neurofeedback. We will go over common qEEG findings and specific protocols. October 10, 2022 4:00PM - 6:00 PM ET This course entitles you to 6 or 8 CE credit hours if you purchase the CE add-on. You will be offered the add-on product when checking out. The number of CEs available will depend on whether you choose to sign up for the fourth session. Early bird prices are valid: August 19, 2022 to September 9, 2022

I am so excited to be teaching my first online course! Learn more and sign up below! https://www.eeglearn.com/wwb There are so many contradictory ideas about what it means to be healthy. Diet culture and the weight-loss industry will have you believing that you need to work out every day and restrict your calorie intake in order to be the best version of yourself. In this course, we cover topics such as why diets ultimately don't work, how fat phobia has impacted our society, how to become an intuitive eater, and how to avoid falling into dieting and eating disorder traps that society has set up for us. This course is for you if you: -are burnt out from trying diet after diet -are a parent who wants to make sure diet culture isn't harming your child -are a therapist who is looking for continuing education credits (CEUs) -are a mental health provider who works with people with eating disorders You have two course options to choose from: A 3-Session Pathway and a 4-Session Pathway. Both includes three general lectures on the topics above. The 4-Session pathway is designed for existing neurofeedback providers. Details about each pathway can be found below. General Sessions September 22, September 29, and October 6, 2022 6:00 PM - 8:00 PM ET Additional Neurofeedback Session This session is designed for existing Nuro feedback providers to take what they learned in the first three sessions and apply it to their clinical work. We will discuss, in-depth, the theory and progression of working with clients and eating issues or disorders using neurofeedback. We will go over common qEEG findings and specific protocols. October 10, 2022 4:00PM - 6:00 PM ET This course entitles you to 6 or 8 CE credit hours if you purchase the CE add-on. You will be offered the add-on product when checking out. The number of CEs available will depend on whether you choose to sign up for the fourth session. Early bird prices are valid: August 19, 2022 to September 9, 2022   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma You can also check out Alyssa at www.alyssascolari.com   Transcript:   Alyssa Scolari: Hello, everybody. I am back. Well, I mean, I guess technically I didn't go anywhere, [00:00:30] but I know I've been putting out episodes every week, except the beginning of the month of August. I skipped because I was very overwhelmed and I was getting ready to go away on vacation. And then since then, I have been putting out pre-recorded episodes, so they are episodes that had been recorded earlier in the summertime, so it feels like it's been forever since I've actually sat down and recorded a podcast [00:01:00] and that is for a very good reason. And one of those reasons is that I, like I said, was on vacation. I went to Fiji, which I'm so excited to talk about. Alyssa Scolari: I know when I have talked to people here in my regular life, they're like, "Oh my gosh, that's so far." And I guess it is, or it isn't, depending on where you live in the world. But I live in the United States on the Eastern coast, [00:01:30] so it was really, really far for us. We crossed the International Dateline. It was like 30 plus hours of travel, just to go one way, so we were really traveling for two weeks. We stayed there for seven days, but between all of the traveling, we were really gone for about two weeks. And man, I really needed it. I don't think I even realized how [00:02:00] much I needed it until I went. Alyssa Scolari: It was a, I guess, six hour flight to get to Los Angeles and then it was a 10 and a half hour flight to get to Fiji. But then once we got to Fiji, we had to take, because Fiji is made up of, I think it's about 333 [00:02:30] islands, so you can go to any of the islands in Fiji. And so we landed on the main island where the airport is and then we took one of those little puddle jumper planes to get to the island and it was the coolest thing I have ever done. Alyssa Scolari: When I say a little plane, I mean it held six people. That was [00:03:00] it. And the pilot, I could reach out and touch him. He was sitting right in front of me and we were low enough that you could see everything and the water there is just the most beautiful blue I have ever seen in my life. It was the most amazing thing. Once I got over my fear of, "Oh my gosh. I'm going to die in this thing." Because I was fairly certain, I was going down. Alyssa Scolari: So we took a puddle jumper plane over to the island of Yasawa [00:03:30] and once we landed, which it's not like there's not an airport on this island. It's literally because the island that we stayed on I think is only about a mile wide, so there's in the middle of the jungle because the whole island is the jungle and the beach, there's just a little strip of grass and that is the landing strip. So, we touched down on this little strip of grass and [00:04:00] we then took a car ride, or a van ride, through the jungle, on a dirt road, to get to the resort. So needless to say, between layovers and just the distance, it was exhausting. But when I tell you it was life-changing, I don't even know where to begin. Alyssa Scolari: So many people have asked me when I've told them, like why [00:04:30] Fiji? If all the places you could go, why Fiji? And the answer to that is, I was always going to Fiji, one way or another. My whole life, my heart has been set on Fiji. Please don't ask me why. I have never seen a movie where I'm like, "Oh my gosh. I want to go to Fiji." I've never really seen anything that has made me want to go to Fiji, but for [00:05:00] some reason that has always been on my heart and I really wanted to go for our honeymoon, but we could not afford it in the slightest. So, we just decided, "Hey, this is my dream and we are going to save up and we are going to go." And we did. Alyssa Scolari: For those of you who don't know this, well actually I'm sure none of you know this about me. I am a massive tropical [00:05:30] fish lover. We had a tropical fish tank. It was like sixty-five gallons, I think. So, it was pretty big and we had all of the salt water fish. We had it for a few years. We had to get rid of it, unfortunately, and bring the fish back to the store because our house was just entirely too small and our dogs were a little too rambunctious and I was afraid that they were [00:06:00] going to run into the tank. But it is a hobby of mine, not necessarily keeping them. I do want to keep them again someday and I absolutely love it, but being in the ocean and being with the ocean life, I am not somebody who's drawn to the beach. I am drawn to the sea. I am drawn to the ocean. In my next life, I will be a marine biologist. I can tell you a ridiculous amount of knowledge about all of the tropical [00:06:30] fish in the sea. Alyssa Scolari: For me, it's always been a place where I have felt like I would be the most at home, even though I've never really been to a place like that. I mean, I went to the Dominican Republic for my honeymoon and we got to do some snorkeling there and it was really cool, but I've never been to a place like Fiji that is so completely untouched and yet there was something inside of me [00:07:00] that always knew that that was where I belonged. And man, I am so glad that I made my dream come true because I was right. It is exactly where I belonged. I have never felt more at home in my entire life than I did standing on that beach. Not even standing on the beach, but being in the ocean. Alyssa Scolari: The first day we got there. Well, really the second [00:07:30] day, because the first day we were falling asleep at the dinner table and then we went to bed. The next day, we went out into the ocean and we swam out to a bunch of big rocks out in the ocean and we climbed up on the rocks. When I say, we, I'm talking about David and I. We climbed up onto the rocks and we just sat there for what felt like forever, looking back at the island. The island is just mountains and mountains of jungle and trees [00:08:00] and then white Sandy beaches. And then we were looking down below us and the water is crystal clear and you could see fish of every color swimming below us. It, I mean, you could see just these bright blue fish that were swimming below us. And of course I was able to identify them right away because they were damsels, which are native to Fiji, and I was so excited. I just felt the most at peace, I've ever felt in my whole life. Alyssa Scolari: [00:08:30] I spent every single day in the ocean. Every single day, snorkeling. There was one day where we got on a boat and we were jetting out into the ocean and we jumped off the boat and just in the middle of the sea, and we were snorkeling, and there was a shark right below us. It was like a reef shark, so it wasn't massive, but it was still a shark. I've always wanted [00:09:00] to swim with the sharks and just the patterns on these fish, the colors of these fish, and not just the fish, the sand crabs, the sea turtles. It's everything. It's the coral reefs. The corals are neon. It was a world that I couldn't even imagine in my wildest dreams. I had always dreamed of this and I always looked up what coral reefs look like, [00:09:30] but it was nothing that I could ever possibly dream up. It was beyond my wildest dreams. Alyssa Scolari: There were days where we would do private picnics on private beaches, so they would pack a cooler for us and they would take us out on a boat, like 20 minutes away from our resort. They would drop us off on a private beach and we would just stay on a private beach, just the two of us, all day long, snorkeling. And you don't even have to go out far to find the fish because the area [00:10:00] is so untouched. The land is so untouched. The resort that we stayed at, maybe holds 40 people. It is the only source of employment on the island. There were no humans. There was nothing there and we didn't even have cell phone service. So, I mean, it was just a time of my life. I've never experienced anything like it and it was amazing. Alyssa Scolari: [00:10:30] I did a lot of healing there. A lot of healing. I made a lot of decisions about just things and changes I'm going to be making and things I'm going to be doing in my career, so I'm happy. I'm also happy to be home though. I missed my dogs and my mother-in-law watched the dogs for us and it was so great to have somebody that we love and trust, be able to take care of the dogs. [00:11:00] And she's awesome, so she did great with them. And yeah, now I'm back and I have a very big announcement to make, which by the way, if you want to see pictures of Fiji, you can head on over to my Instagram because I posted pictures on there. It is lightaftertrauma. Alyssa Scolari: And speaking of my Instagram, if you haven't... If you're on my Instagram, then you might have already seen this announcement. But if not, then this is going to be new to you. I [00:11:30] have launched my first ever online course and I'm so excited. I have been a little distant from the podcast lately. You may have noticed. I've been doing my best. But the reason for that is because I have been working since June on creating this course, or May, I think I've been working on creating this course and it is finally here and I am so [00:12:00] excited. Alyssa Scolari: The course is called The War With Your Body and I collaborated with Leanne Hershkowitz, who is a neurofeedback provider and a therapist as well. She was on the podcast to talk about neurofeedback and developmental trauma. This was probably maybe a year and a half ago, so you'd have to go back into the feed and find it. But we decided that we wanted to do a course together because there really isn't [00:12:30] a lot out there in terms of online courses where people can truly learn about intuitive eating and diet culture and how to ditch those things. Well, not intuitive eating, but how to ditch diet culture and how to let go of that feeling that you have to be on diet after diet. Alyssa Scolari: There's a lot of misinformation out there and there's certainly no [00:13:00] shortage of diet culture and I've talked about diet culture and eating disorders on this podcast, plenty of times before, and body image and health at every size. There's no shortage of bad information out there where people are promoting weight loss and diets and calorie deficits and over exercising and we glorify thinness in this culture. And if you live in a larger body, you are made to feel horrible about yourself. Alyssa Scolari: And so we [00:13:30] decided, you know what, we're making a course and we're going to talk about all of it. So in this course, we talk a lot about the diet industry, the weight loss industry, on all of the different ways in which the diet industry can come into your life without you knowing it. Alyssa Scolari: We talk about the diet industry and social media. We talk about why diets don't work and why the majority of people reach something called diet [00:14:00] burnout, which is where you're just so sick of doing all the diets and you just don't know what else to do but you physically cannot go on another diet. So, we talk about that. We talk about the different types of dieters out there and we talk about the alternative, which is intuitive eating. Alyssa Scolari: Now intuitive eating is another super trendy term, but there's also a ton of misinformation about [00:14:30] that out there, so we are breaking it down. Intuitive eating does not look like eating donuts all day, every day, and thinking, "Oh, Hey, I'm eating intuitively." A lot of people think that's what it is, especially people who are trying to promote their diets. Like, "Oh, don't do intuitive eating because they think you should eat donuts all day." That's not true. Alyssa Scolari: We talk about the different aspects of health and the stigma against [00:15:00] larger bodies that is even in our medical system, like what it can be like going to doctor's offices if you live in a larger body. Even so much as getting on an airplane. I struggled as somebody living in a larger body, to fit in one of the seats in the airplanes, going to Fiji, and I was really uncomfortable and really triggered and it just felt so unfair that airplanes aren't made for all body [00:15:30] types. So, we just talk about how ingrained fat phobia is. We talk a lot about fat phobia and really how to achieve letting go, ditching diet culture, becoming an intuitive eater. Alyssa Scolari: There's advice and direct tips in there for how to deal with loved ones and friends and family members and even doctors. When you're going to the doctor, to avoid having, if you don't want to get weighed, [00:16:00] or to avoid having to talk about weight. Or even tips in there for ways that you can deal with your children. If you are a parent and you are worried about your child being introduced to diet culture, this is a course that is absolutely for you. Or, if you're just somebody who's sick of dieting and you want to make peace with your body and you want to make peace with food, this is also a course for you. Alyssa Scolari: We also discuss eating disorders and we discuss the [00:16:30] link between food issues or eating disordered behaviors and trauma as well. So, that is an important piece. I'm not saying that every chronic diet, or every person who diets has a history of trauma, or has an eating disorder. I'm not saying that at all. But what I'm saying is, trauma has been found to be linked to the onset of eating disorders and disordered eating. And so we discuss that as well. Alyssa Scolari: Now, if you are a therapist and [00:17:00] you are looking for continuing education credits, you can also find that in this course. So, this course is either three modules or four modules, depending on what path you take. So, if you are a neurofeedback provider and you are looking to learn about how you can utilize neurofeedback to help clients with eating disorders, then you can sign up for all [00:17:30] four modules. If that does not apply to you, then you would sign up for three modules. If you signed up for the three modules, then you would get six credits. If you signed up for the four modules, then you would get eight credits. Alyssa Scolari: Now the exciting thing is, I will be teaching this course, live. So, if you want to come to the live teaching of this course, you can hang out with us. You can ask questions. I would love [00:18:00] to see you there. I have spent two years, two years today actually, talking to you all through this microphone and it would be an honor to get to see your beautiful faces. Alyssa Scolari: So, if you would like to attend the live teaching that will be held via Zoom, so it will be virtual, so anybody can attend, anywhere in the world and module one will be held on Thursday, September 22nd, [00:18:30] from 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM. And module two will be held September 29th, also a Thursday, from 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM. And then the third module will be held October 6th and that will also be 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM and that is also a Thursday. The fourth module will be held on October 10th, and that will be from 4:00 PM to 6:00 PM. Now all of these times [00:19:00] are Eastern Standard Time. Alyssa Scolari: So, if you are looking to sign up, but you live in a different part of the world, please make sure you take that into account. If you would like more information about this, you can head over to my Instagram. It is lightaftertrauma or my other personal Instagram, which is AlyssaScolari and also you can look in the show notes. The link to sign up will be in the show notes, [00:19:30] so you can do that, and you can also learn more about the course. Alyssa Scolari: And then also there is an early bird special running until September 9th, 2022. So if you would like a discount, if you want the early bird rate, please head over as soon as possible and make sure that you sign up before September 10th. So, September 9th is the last day that you can sign up. Alyssa Scolari: Now, for those of you who are interested in the course, [00:20:00] but you're like, "You know what? I don't think that I can make all those times work." That is okay. All is not lost because these live recordings will be recorded and they will be stored and you will be able to access the course at any time. So you can go in, you can purchase the course, and then you can have all the modules at once. And that's the same, whether you are a therapist, whether you are a parent, whether you are just somebody who wants to [00:20:30] see the course for yourself. Alyssa Scolari: This course is awesome. I have worked really hard on it. There's a lot of knowledge in here that honestly, people are not talking about and is not out there in the public and I got my information from two of the creators of Intuitive Eating, so I know that what I'm talking about is really, really helpful. It's all legitimate and I [00:21:00] can't wait. I cannot wait. I hope that this course helps you. I have been working on it for all of you and yeah, I just thank you. I thank you so much for all the support because if I didn't have the support, I wouldn't have even thought that this was possible. But because of you, it is, and I am really looking forward to seeing where this first course takes me and takes all of us. Alyssa Scolari: So, thank you so, so much for your time. [00:21:30] I know this isn't much of a content-oriented episode today, but I feel like I had a lot to catch up on and I wanted to introduce you to this new course. I hope you have a wonderful week. I love you all so much and I am holding you in the light. Alyssa Scolari: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are [00:22:00] at lightaftertrauma. And on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Alyssa Scolari: Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks, so please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

We are reaching back into our archives this week for an episode redux with Episode 34! Dr. Nazanin Moali is a public speaker, psychologist, and sex and relationship expert. Dr. Moali is also the host of her own podcast, titled "Sexology", where she dives into the psychology of sex and intimacy. In this week's episode, Dr. Moali and Alyssa discuss the impact that sexual trauma can have on us as well as the hope that comes with reclaiming our sexuality and discovering pleasure again.  Learn more about Dr. Moali and check out her podcast   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma You can also check out Alyssa at www.alyssascolari.com   Transcript: Alyssa Scolari [00:00]: Hello friends. I hope everybody is well. I have some exciting news. We are adding a mini episode to the podcast every week coming soon. This episode is all about you. When I say mini I'm meaning it's going to be about 10-15 minutes long and what this little segment is going to be called is Survived and Thrived Stories. After starting this podcast I started to get people from all over the world who were reaching out to me to talk to me about certain things on the podcast that I touched on, certain parts of my story, specific topics that they could identify with, and I realized that there are so many people who want to share their story and want their voice to be heard, but they don't necessarily want to be identified or they don't want to share all of their story, so I wanted to create this mini episode series called Survived and Thrived Stories where you can email in anonymously or if you want to sign your first initial or just your first name, however you want, and you can share as much or as little of your story as you want. Actually, part of why I really wanted to do this as well and part of why this is so special to me is because I realized that when I first started sharing my story, I did it in writing and I did it anonymously and I actually wrote into a podcast. I wrote into a very famous podcast called My Favorite Murder because I wrote in about a trauma that I experienced that I was a victim of a crime and that was my first kind of like, it was the gateway into me sharing my story and into me I think ultimately starting this podcast and helped so much in my recovery and I want to give all of you the same opportunity. If you are struggling with something, if you have been through a hardship, if you are experiencing PTSD or if you have recovered or you are in recovery, because I believe recovery is a lifelong journey, I want to hear from you. If there's something you want to share, send it on in and I will read it aloud on the podcast and then of course I will comment and offer any kind of support that I can. Yeah, I just think it would be a really exciting way for everybody to get their voices heard and for you to be able to inspire so many others and to reach out to others and let other people who are sitting in the darkness know that they are not alone and that they can get through this. Whether you want to talk about things that helped you to recover, whether you want to talk about what happened to you, you can send it on over. I want you to send it to the podcast email. That's lightaftertrauma@gmail.com. Again, that's lightaftertrauma@gmail.com. Again, you will remain anonymous. I look forward to hearing from you. I would be honored to share your story on this podcast, so looking forward to it. Stay tuned and send me your story. [Music 00:03:47] Hello all you beautiful people. Welcome to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. You know who this is. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and I am happy to be here this week with Dr. Nazanin Moali. Dr. Nazanin Moali is a licensed clinical psychologist and a, is it double A sect or AAS- Nazanin Moali [04:27]: AASECT. I know, it's a complicated name. Yes. AASECT. Alyssa Scolari [04:32]: AASECT, okay. All right. Certified sex therapist, her private practice is located in Los Angeles and she specializes in working with couples and individuals struggling with issues of sex and intimacy. She also hosts a weekly podcast called Sexology, introducing the most intriguing findings in psychology of sex and intimacy. Welcome. Thank you for being here. Nazanin Moali [04:59]: Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm very excited about this conversation. Alyssa Scolari [05:04]: This is absolutely one of my favorite topics to discuss. It's so difficult. I guess I'll just turn it over to you. Could you just elaborate a little bit more on the work that you do? Are you mostly in private practice in addition to the podcast? Nazanin Moali [05:21]: Yes. I have a private practice that I help people with all sorts of sexual health functioning challenges. One of the things that I'm very passionate about is helping sexual assault survivors, people who have experienced sexual abuse, to reclaim pleasure in their life because I know that this is something we will talk about, but one thing that breaks my heart, that at times people, they don't think they deserve pleasure after experiencing trauma or they think that their work is done when they process the horrible traumatic experience that they had, but I think it can be very important and empowering to cultivate pleasure back into our lives. That's one of the things that I'm very, very passionate about, supporting my clients to navigate. Alyssa Scolari [06:09]: You are living my dream. I love it and I can't thank you enough for doing what you do because it really is important. As somebody who is, I myself am a survivor of complex PTSD from a history of sexual abuse, and I'm also a trauma therapist and I've been in private practice for about three years now and one of the things that I see consistently showing up in my office for survivors of sexual trauma is, "How do I have any kind of semblance of sexual pleasure when I can't even be in my body? I have so much guilt and shame." You help people to be able to experience pleasure again, to be able to reclaim their sexuality and I think that that's amazing. It's amazing. Nazanin Moali [07:11]: Thank you. Back at yourself, that helping people with this processing of traumatic experiences of all sorts. I have lots of respect for people that are helping clients in early stages and all stages of processing the trauma. That's really rewarding but can be challenging work at times. Alyssa Scolari [07:30]: Yes. Yes, on both of our ends. It definitely can be challenging but so rewarding. So rewarding. In your experience what typically happens after people have survived any type of sexual trauma or sexual abuse? Nazanin Moali [07:49]: Well people kind of have different responses afterward when it comes to their sexuality, their relationship with their sexuality. It's my experience that some people can become kind of numb. They don't want to have any kind of sexual encounter with their partner or with themselves. They are in this continue to live in this fight and flight mode and sexuality is not a priority for them in that phase. I also see people that after experiencing assault, whether it's abuse, they start becoming more sexual. That they want to have more sex, they want to explore their bodies more, and both of those things are normal. I think it's important to think about normal meaning it's common, in a way. That's the common early phases of experiences that people have. Also we can develop all sorts of different challenges as a result of experiencing a trauma. Not everyone of course that they experience trauma develop PTSD, depression, anxiety, but for people who develop the depression and anxiety and all of those challenges, that also impact their sexual desire, their connection with their sexuality, and that can be another hurdle. Trauma can impact the way that we see our world and that can impact our relationships in our life, which can in turn impact our sexuality as well. There are a number of different ways that experiencing a trauma can transform us. Alyssa Scolari [09:25]: Yes, and have you found it to be even extra difficult for people to talk about because there's already so much stigma around sex and sexuality and experiencing pleasure, especially for women. Nazanin Moali [09:43]: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Absolutely. First of all I think most people that I encounter, even whether in my office or outside, there are some level of discomfort talking about sex. At baseline many of us are uncomfortable and I think added to that, when we're experiencing sexual trauma, that can even complicate things as well because sometimes people receive these unhelpful messages from others, kind of blaming them for their experiences. Perhaps you were wearing something provocative that led to this. Alyssa Scolari [10:19]: Right, or maybe you were drinking or what were you doing at a bar that late at night? Or things like that. Nazanin Moali [10:24]: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Absolutely. Like was the person in your home? Maybe then you welcomed them into your home, so what could you expect? All of these horrible messages. If you're feeling bad about sex to start with and then you experience some kind of negative messaging around us being part of what happened, which is ridiculous, so I think that also impacts how we're feeling about our sexuality, the experience. Additionally, for many people it's okay and it's common to experience some arousal during the experience of assault, during the abuse. It's your body trying to protect you. What if you're getting lubricated? All of those things are completely normally. It doesn't mean that you were asking it, it's just your body function of trying to protect you. I think that's also important for survivors to know. Alyssa Scolari [11:19]: Yes. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you for saying this. This was the hardest thing and for me personally, as well as for the sexual trauma survivors that I work with, is the hardest thing for survivors to be able to integrate, is this idea of well during the abuse, during the rape I was aroused. Or even I orgasmed, and therefore I must have wanted it. That's not at all the case, as you're saying, because we can't control our body's physiological response to our genitals being stimulated. Nazanin Moali [12:09]: Right. Right. I agree with you and I think unfortunately many people internalize those negative beliefs of thinking about oh God, perhaps on some unconscious level I wanted it or I was okay with it or I gave them the message that it was okay. I love that you talked about yes that's part of the experience, it doesn't mean that you were giving anyone a permission to do anything. Again, it could be a part of your physiological response, as you mentioned. At times it's a way for your body to protect you, so there could be a number of different reasons that physiologically you had that arousal. Alyssa Scolari [12:46]: When you say part of a way for your body to protect you, meaning like in the sense of pretending to go along with it in order to protect yourself? Nazanin Moali [12:56]: Great question. One of the kind of common challenges that I hear from some of my clients that saying, from female clients, that "I was lubricated so perhaps the lubrication shows arousal," but lubrication is a way that your genitals trying to save you from experiencing tearing, all sorts of challenges. That's why they say that it's your body wanting to protect you. Alyssa Scolari [13:22]: That makes sense. That makes sense. Right, so lubrication again doesn't necessarily mean that you wanted it. That's your body's way of trying to protect from any kind of intimacy or sexual trauma. Your body is preparing itself, trying to keep yourself from having tears or whatever kind of other injuries. Nazanin Moali [13:43]: Absolutely. Alyssa Scolari [13:45]: That makes a lot of sense. Yes. I'm so glad that you touched on that because I think that that's so hard for people. As you were saying earlier, some reactions that we have or some people go into sexual avoidance and some people become hyper sexual and when people come into your office do they realize that they have sexual trauma or do people typically come into your office for other reasons and then discover that they have sexual trauma? Nazanin Moali [14:22]: Well majority of my clients coming in for sex therapy knowing that they did the first part of the work. Kind of like knowing that I worked through the early phases of experiencing, kind of working through those difficult memories. Now they're ready to explore their sexuality and sexual wellness piece. That's why they're seeking out a therapist. But at times I had clients that they're coming in to me to say, "I don't feel anything during sex. I have this numbness," and when we're unfolding and unwrapping different parts of their experiences we realize this is stemmed from their experience of being a survivor and not dealing with the completely treating symptoms of experiencing that trauma. Alyssa Scolari [15:10]: Yes. Could you talk for a few minutes about that experience of, this is something that I absolutely relate to, of the numbness around having sex? I know for a long time before I knew that I had sexual abuse I truly thought that I was broken so I would imagine that you have people that come to you that are just like, "I don't feel anything when I'm having sex." Could you talk about what that process actually is and what's happening? Nazanin Moali [15:38]: Absolutely. I feel like for many of my clients when they experience their sexual trauma or other kind of traumas at times, they learn to disconnect from their bodies. They're very aware of what happens in their mind, but sex is about sensation so it's important to connect with our bodies and it could be a common experience but it's something that people need to work through because in order for us to connect with our pleasure we need to be able to pay attention to sensations and all of those experiences we have in our bodies, so that's part of it. Again, it could be one way for you to manage working through those or experiencing those horrible experiences because sometimes during the traumatic experience you're going through something really, really painful emotionally, physically, so consciously unconsciously you're disconnecting from your body to protect yourself. Now that you are ready to embrace your sexuality and introducing pleasure, it's really important to do practices that helps you to connect with your body again and work through the numbness. Alyssa Scolari [16:49]: Yes, so practices that focus on grounding yourself and being in your body. Nazanin Moali [16:55]: And kind of being okay yes, and experiencing pleasure. Alyssa Scolari [16:59]: Yep. Yep, exactly. Exactly. How do you help people work through the shame and the guilt around sex? Some people feel like after the abuse that they endured that they're not even worthy of having pleasure. How do you help people with that? I know that's a very broad question. I think it's very individualized, but what are some things you might do? Nazanin Moali [17:31]: Well I think one important thing is to identify the beliefs that you develop because of experiencing, as the result of experiencing trauma. What are some of the core beliefs that you develop? What are some of the things that you, the messages that you have around your bodies, around relationship, around sex? Part of it is identifying those messages and also examining that. Are they serving you? Are these accurate? What else we can put in instead of this belief that would serve you better and is congruent with your values. The life that you would like to lead. That's part of it. Also equally important is seeing it as a way to get revenge on the person wanting to take away your sexuality. Alyssa Scolari [18:19]: I love it. Yes. Nazanin Moali [18:20]: That can be motivating for many people, thinking about this person, this experience didn't break me. Perhaps I can work toward transforming myself and my experiences and my sexuality as the result of that. One of the research that I've done in graduate school was around posttraumatic growth. That many people, when they experience trauma, after that possible to experience growth. Growth meaning that it's not you're going back to the even pre-trauma functioning. It's more about going beyond and cultivating experiences that's beyond what you were experiencing. That would be even if you had a mediocre sexual experiences before trauma, this experience can provide you with this opportunity to experience growth and change your relationship with sexuality, with people in your life. Kind of anchoring in that, that can help people to feel more motivated to work through that. I think the other piece of it, thinking about incorporating pleasure back in your life. Not only sexual pleasure, it could be all sorts of pleasure because when we're thinking we're not worthy then we're not taking care of ourselves, we're not paying attention to our physiological needs, to our pain, all of that. Working on incorporating pleasure inside and outside the bedroom is also part of it and really working on cultivating awareness around your body. [inaudible 00:19:49] that focusing on doing grounding exercises, number of different exercises I give my clients to explore their body and finally their sexuality. That also can help people to feel more grounded and they're going to have more experience of embodiment. Alyssa Scolari [20:07]: You start with non-sexual touch. Nazanin Moali [20:12]: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Alyssa Scolari [20:12]: Which I think is so important. I follow this one person on Instagram. Her handle is My Orgasmic Life. Nazanin Moali [20:21]: Nice. Alyssa Scolari [20:21]: Have you ever heard of her before? Nazanin Moali [20:23]: No. Alyssa Scolari [20:24]: She's wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. She has these workshops and these seminars, it's called Body Sex, and she helps women to become more grounded in themselves and be able to explore their sexuality and tap into their sexuality but she starts with non-sexual touch. For many people, and I know especially for me, non-sexual touch was all I could handle for a long time. I think that that's important. Just even hand holding or even, and this is if you're with your partner, but there also can be non-sexual touch even if you're solo. Nazanin Moali [21:08]: Absolutely. I think definitely with partners, again kind of like checking in with yourself about your readiness on whether to introduce touch or not. At times we start as you said with hand holding or it could be caressing different parts of the body while you have the clothing on. We're not removing any clothing. That can take awhile and then after that when you're ready you can escalate things. Also as you mentioned, even when you are practicing solo, exploring putting lotion on different parts of your body and paying attention to the sensations, smells, all of those good things. You can practice this element of paying attention to your body. I think that's very important. Also breathing. Connecting with your breath can also be very powerful because when we're ready to be with a partner or we're ready to introduce solo sex, it's important to also to use our breath as a way to anchor ourself in our bodies. That could be one tool. Alyssa Scolari [22:11]: To use our breath as a way to stay grounded. Nazanin Moali [22:13]: Yes, and being focused in the moment because if we're connecting with people sexually, one common experience that many survivors have is they disassociate. They kind of leave their body and that's common and you can use your breath to anchor yourself back into your body. Alyssa Scolari [22:32]: Okay. That's really, really interesting and makes so much sense now that you're saying it. I had never thought of that before but yes, it makes so much sense. Nazanin Moali [22:41]: Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [22:42]: Such great, great tips and tools. I do want to be clear for the listeners out there that this is a process, which I know you can speak more on, that takes awhile. Nazanin Moali [22:57]: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Alyssa Scolari [22:58]: We can't expect this to happen within a week. Nazanin Moali [23:01]: You're absolutely right about that and sometimes it means that it's not a linear path. Sometimes you're escalating things with your partner and it feels okay, and something happens in your life and then your body kind of goes a little bit back. You're no longer ready for sex or you're not ready to connect in a specific way with your partner, so that's completely okay. It's important to have this compassionate view of yourself and okay, as long as you're working on this and moving forward, that's what's important. Recovery is possible but it's important to take it with your own pace because if you are going too fast then that might lead for you to experience all sorts of sexual challenges. I see people that many survivors develop all kind of sexual dysfunctions because they either didn't address the main issue around trauma or their pacing wasn't quite right, so I think that's important to keep in mind. Alyssa Scolari [23:58]: Yes, I like that you pointed out that it's not linear because I think that that can be very frustrating for some people and certainly was frustrating for me on my recovery journey where I would be okay sometimes and then during maybe a high stress time in my life it would be like, oh this is not okay, and it would feel defeating because it would feel like well great, I'm right back where I was. But that's not at all the case. It just ebbs and flows. In the same way that I think, and you could speak more to this, that any sexual relationship would ebb and flow, right? Nazanin Moali [24:38]: Absolutely. That's completely okay as long as you are focusing on communicating that with your partner and focusing on experiencing having good enough sexual experiences. We are living in a society that we're all constantly bombarded with what's sex supposed to look like. That it needs to be this glamorous production and everyone else is having sex every day and you're left out. It's important to think about who you are and what kind of sexual experiences you want. It's a goal that can change in different phases of our life. Alyssa Scolari [25:14]: Yeah. It's important to know that it doesn't have to be ... Just kind of like you said, like it's glamorized. If you're with somebody and the relationship really is right, it has to be this mind-blowing, earth-shattering sex that's every day and it's like, this is not realistic. Everything works differently depending on who you are. Different strokes for different folks, basically. Nazanin Moali [25:39]: Absolutely. Yes. Yes, and I think people at times think about if they're not experiencing spontaneous desire and we're not climaxing the same time, it means that we're broken or we're not compatible. I think it's important to know that our sexuality can look different and that's okay. Alyssa Scolari [26:00]: Yes. Self compassion and allowing yourself to be where you're at without judgment. Now there's even more I think shame filled than having sex with a partner, I would say for trauma survivors I've found that learning how to engage in masturbation again I have found to be extremely, extremely triggering for trauma survivors. As a sex therapist, when somebody is trying to establish pleasure again into their lives do you recommend masturbation first? Like getting to know your own body first before they step out into exploring other partners? Nazanin Moali [26:53]: Well you brought up such an important point, Alyssa, that I think at times even especially with my female clients, there's some stigma around masturbation. Whether they experienced trauma or not, kind of thinking about that this is not okay, I don't want to do it, for a number of different reasons. And paired with experiencing trauma, that message can get amplified. I guess one thing I want for people to know that it's a wonderful way of exploring and seeing how ready are you to have sexual pleasure in your life and you have the control over your body and you can stop and I think that can be a really, really good way that you can gauge your readiness. You can incorporate different touches and explore that. I think that can be very, very useful. I think one thing that's really important to also keep in mind, that sexual trauma, sexual assault is a form of violence. It's not about sex at all. It's about the violence. Alyssa Scolari [27:52]: Yes. Nazanin Moali [27:53]: I think it's important to keep that in mind and separating that from your sexuality and sexual pleasure. I think it's important to keep that in mind, so actively turning your mind that direction. I think when it comes to masturbation I think it's important even if you haven't done it before experiencing trauma, thinking about it as a way for you to reconnect with your body. Even if you are not ready to masturbate to orgasm or you don't want to, you can touch and stroke different parts of your body, kind of exploring and being curious about the sensation. Being curious what feels good and what doesn't feel good. At times our pleasure and our arousal can change after experiencing trauma. I have some clients, and I know this is such a controversial topic, but they incorporate their sexual abuse experiences as part of their erotic template. Especially if that was something that happened early in life, and they have all sorts of different sexual play that might not be mainstream but it's healthy for them because it helps them to feel in charge, it helps them to feel safe in the consensual relationship and context. Alyssa Scolari [29:06]: Yep. In other words, people will incorporate part of their abuse during their sexual arousal because that's what makes them feel A, aroused, B, like they have some kind of control. Nazanin Moali [29:23]: Absolutely. Alyssa Scolari [29:24]: Yes. Yes. I was just going to ask, and you are saying that we want to normalize that? Nazanin Moali [29:31]: Yes. Yes. Again, I think it's important to differentiate are you re-traumatizing yourself with this behavior? Is this trauma reenactment? Or this is truly part of your erotic template now because now our fantasies, our erotic blueprint and our sexual behavior can give us this feeling of safety and it's important for us to feel safe during sex. If this particular play, power [inaudible 00:29:57] change, whatever you're into, it gives you that safety, then there's nothing wrong with incorporating that. Alyssa Scolari [30:04]: Yes, and by explaining it like that and saying that you are washing the shame away from people who may be aroused by types of sex or types of foreplay that aren't mainstream and it's okay in a consensual situation. It is absolutely okay. I love that you said that. Nazanin Moali [30:32]: Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [30:33]: So important. So important. I just have to go back to what you said, because you said this earlier and I love it. It's about when we talk about trying to help people come out of the shame and the guilt that they feel and reclaiming their sexuality and their right to pleasure as a way to get revenge. That is so important. I think that so much of the healing comes from reclaiming your right to pleasure because then you turn to your perpetrator, figuratively, not literally, and you say, "You didn't win," because the assault, the abuse, the rape, it's not about arousal. It's about power. It's about power and violence and when you reclaim your right to feel pleasure, whether it's with yourself, whether it's with another partner, multiple partners, that's when you take back your power. Nazanin Moali [31:35]: I agree. You say it much better than me. Alyssa Scolari [31:42]: I just feel so empowered by what you're saying and the work that you're doing and it's wonderful. It's wonderful. Nazanin Moali [31:50]: Thank you. Same to you. Alyssa Scolari [31:53]: Thank you. I have to ask, how long have you been working in particular niche, this field, for? Nazanin Moali [32:00]: Well I did tons of different research in trauma, so in trauma it's been around 12 years. Sex therapy the last five years because I felt that I love doing trauma work but specifically this is something that I really enjoy, helping survivors and also people with all sorts of sexual challenges. That's been a newer niche for me. Alyssa Scolari [32:24]: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure it's so empowering just to help people claim their right to pleasure. This is something that I have over the last year or so have strongly been considering going back for my PhD in clinical sexology because I want to be able to better help survivors of sexual abuse reclaim their right to pleasure, and you're doing it and it's incredible. And you're a phenomenal writer. The article that you sent me, which to the listeners out there, I will link this article in the show notes. This is an article where you talk about you give different tips on how people can start to recover. It was the posttraumatic growth that you were talking about, correct? Nazanin Moali [33:12]: Yes. A part of it yes, I talk about that. Yes. Alyssa Scolari [33:14]: You're a phenomenal writer and then you have a podcast as well. Can you talk a little bit about your podcast? Nazanin Moali [33:22]: Well thank you so much for allowing me to share this. I have a podcast, as I mentioned, called Sexology. I've been airing weekly shows the last four and a half years. I talk about science of sex and pleasure because one thing that I'm very passionate about is giving people accurate scientific research-based information because I feel like when we have the right information it will empower us to make right decisions because there's just so many inaccurate information out there. At times they're interviews, and at times the solos podcast episodes. It gets released on a weekly basis on Tuesdays. Whenever I'm talking about a topic that's not necessarily within my specific niche I invite a researcher, scientist, another psychologist, therapist to come talk about it. It's called Sexology and people can find it everywhere that they're listening to the podcast, like Apple Podcast, Stitcher, all of those places. Alyssa Scolari [34:21]: I can't wait to listen. Nazanin Moali [34:23]: Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [34:24]: That's so exciting. You're doing incredible work. Where do you see your career going, because you're also five years into working in this niche. I'm sure you've got big dreams and big goals to continue on to do other things. What are some of your goals? Nazanin Moali [34:42]: Well thank you for saying all of these wonderful things. You're such a kind, considerate host. Yes I'm very excited. What I want to do is I want to do online courses specifically helping couples to connect because I feel like there's a limit on number of people I can see in my practice. I love serving individuals and couples but I feel with e-courses, online courses and programs I can reach a broader audience and I can serve a bigger audience so that's what I have in mind for the next phase. Alyssa Scolari [35:14]: E-courses, that's amazing. Especially because everything is online right now. Awesome. Awesome, so you've got big plans. Nazanin Moali [35:22]: Thank you. Thank you. The other thing is around sexuality, whether it's podcasts or e-courses, I think it's easier when people can do the work in the privacy of their home or listen in the privacy of their home because it's just tough to A, talk to a stranger about sex or going into the office can be another hurdle. Alyssa Scolari [35:42]: Yeah. Agreed. It takes being able to do this type of work from home and from the comfort of their own homes gives all people, but especially trauma survivors or sexual abuse survivors, a relief from the shame. I almost wish that when I was talking about my sexual abuse, I wish that it was online. I wish we were on Zoom because I remember quite literally hiding under a blanket at my therapist's office while I would talk to her because of the shame. I do think it's going to give people, it's going to make people so much more comfortable to be able to do it from the comfort of their own homes. Nazanin Moali [36:30]: Well thank you, and I'm glad that you had the opportunity to go in person because I think even going in person can be very, very powerful. I think there's benefit to all aspects, whether going in person or courses. It's a matter of just taking action. I think that's what's important. Alyssa Scolari [36:47]: Agreed. Agreed. There are pros and cons to both. I think the benefit of going in person is that you are able to say it in person and to see somebody not judging you, normalizing the things you were feeling. I'll never forget the time when lots of my memories of trauma were repressed and I was in the uncovering phase and I was just having all of these memories come to the surface and I was sitting in my therapist's office with my husband and I kept trying to say, "But it feels good." What we were talking about earlier, like this couldn't have been rape because in the body memories it feels good. I couldn't say it and the next session I remember my therapist saying to me, "I could feel what you were feeling yesterday and I know what you're trying to tell me is that you feel pleasure along with the pain and that's okay." To be able to have that experience face to face was incredibly healing. Nazanin Moali [38:09]: Right. Right. What a wonderful gift that you got, the chance to work with someone that was so attuned with doing this work. Alyssa Scolari [38:18]: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well I thank you so, so much for coming on the show. Now if people want to find out more, I will absolutely link the article that you wrote in the show notes and do you have a website that people can go to as well? Nazanin Moali [38:37]: Yes. They can find my content, my podcast on SexologyPodcast.com. That would be a place that people can find me. Alyssa Scolari [38:47]: Perfect. I will link that in the show notes as well. Thank you for your time, for your knowledge, for your wisdom, your experience, and most of all for working in this type of field because it is so, so needed and you're making huge changes. Thank you. Nazanin Moali [39:05]: My pleasure and thank you so much for having me on your podcast. This was an absolute pleasure. Alyssa Scolari [39:12]: Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information about today's episode and to sign up for the Light After Trauma newsletter, head over to my website at AlyssaScolari.com. The really great thing about being a part of this newsletter is that not only do you get weekly updates on new podcast episodes and blog posts, but you also get access to the private Facebook community as well as access to all sorts of insider tips, resources and infographs that supplement what we talk about on the show. You also can connect with me and other trauma warriors. I'm super active on the Facebook community and I look forward to talking with you. [Music 00:39:52]

When people hurt us or wrong us, we often automatically assume that the problem is us. We find ourselves asking "Why don't people like me?" or "What's wrong with me?" or "What did I ever do to them?" Developing the ability to depersonalize others' actions and realize that the things people do often have very little to do with you can be life changing.    Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma You can also check out Alyssa at www.alyssascolari.com   Transcript   Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari, and I hope everybody is off to a good week. I am doing pretty well. I have been keeping up with my reading, which honestly has been helping me get through some difficult times. I just finished a book called The People We Meet on Vacation. Honestly, I do not recommend, unless you love a good rom-com, then you might like it. I just don't think that I'm a romantic comedy kind of gal, I didn't like it at all. I really expected it to be a little bit better in terms of like... The book is kind of like flashbacks of these friends who are on vacation in different parts of the world, and I just thought that I was going to get to feel like I was traveling with them, and that we were going to travel across the world with this book. But honestly, so much of it was just about sexual tension, and I swear to the lord almighty, if I had to read one more sentence about how he gently and softly swept a damp curl from her face and tucked it oh so softly behind her ear, I will vomit. It's just not me. It's just not me. No offense to the author. The writing is good, the wit is great, there were a few moments where I chuckled out loud, and I think that if you love romantic comedies, it's perhaps good, I was just not impressed. So I'm looking forward to my next book, which is going to be The Guest List by Lucy Foley. We will see. This one is, I think has murder in it, which I'm already much more inclined to like, and at the end of the day, I just don't think anything is going to top Where the Crawdads Sing. I'm almost sad that I've read it and that it's over, because I feel like there is no book that is going to top that. I'm sure that's not true, but right now my brain is still in Kya's world, and yeah, I just wasn't ready to leave that world. So anyway, I digress. I hope you're having a awesome, awesome week so far, let's get into it today. So, we are going to talk about kind of a somewhat difficult truth, and this is a truth that I have had to grapple with a lot over the course of my life, especially lately, and the truth of the matter is that not everything is about you. And I know that that can come off as harsh, and I probably shouldn't say it that harsh, because I have had people quite literally say that to me when I was a child, and it was really actually painful to hear, because I wasn't trying to make everything about me, I just was desperate for attention and help of some sort, so I shouldn't say it like that, right? It's not necessarily that not everything is about you. The nicer reframe for that is that you don't always have to take things so personally, because truly so many things that happen are not personal. And this is a really hard concept for so many of us, especially trauma survivors, because our brains are wired for protection. So our brains are always trying to seek out a threat, and we are trying to eliminate any potential threats before we end up getting really hurt. So when something happens, we just assume that that person meant it intentionally, or we just assume that that person hates us, and we assume that the problem is us. And we ask ourselves, "Why me? Why does this happen to me?" And that's us taking things really personally and assuming that people's behaviors are a reflection of who we are, and that is simply not true, and it really is one of the hardest things to unlearn. I mean, at least for me. I have had to grapple so much with this idea that people's actions and their behaviors and the things that they say are not about me, right? And let's talk about a couple examples, and I have a lot of personal examples about this, so I'm going to go to my personal examples. So for one, and this might seem kind of simple, but going to the doctors, right? As a fat person, going to the doctors is always a really stressful experience, because they almost always say something about my weight, unsolicited. And so I've gotten to a place where going to the doctors has become kind of like a anxiety-provoking thing for me, and I had a doctor's appointment just to get literally some vaccines, where I wasn't even going to be weighed, and I was driving there and I could feel my heart just pounding in my chest, and I'm like, "Man, what do I do about this?" And so I'm trying to talk myself through it and reframe like, "These doctors' comments to me about my weight is not about me. It is literally not about me." And you're like, "What do you mean? They're literally telling you to lose weight, it has to be about you." It is so not. It is about their own fatphobia, their own misunderstandings, or lack of being up to date about what actually makes somebody healthy, right? Because again, you can kind of look at my blood work and you can see everything looks great, and then you can just look at my body or the number on the scale and say, "Oh, well, you must be unhealthy." No, there are really no indicators that I'm not healthy. So this is about the diet culture, this is about the fatphobia in the medical system, this is about doctors not knowing, or really understanding, or really caring to learn about the Health at Every Size movement, it's not about me in the slightest. And so when I think about that, it helps me to shift my narrative from like, "Oh, I'm this, I'm that, I'm a bad person. Doctors don't like me, they don't want to work with me," or "They think I'm this, they think I'm that." They actually aren't thinking at all, really. They're doing exactly what their training has told them, which is "We see this number on the scale, we don't like this number, and we need to address it." That is literally what their training is, it's what their training has told them to do, it has absolutely nothing to do with me. And so reframing it like that has helped me to depersonalize it to the point where now I will go into a doctor's office and I will be like, "Hey, not getting weighed, and no, I'm not going to tell you what my weight is, unless I'm here specifically for my weight, or unless you need to know it for some medical reason, I'm not letting you know." And also I happen to have found a doctor at this point, at least a primary care doctor, who is amazing and totally, totally gets it. So that's just one example, right? People's behaviors are not a reflection of you, and I think that this is really important to remember with family members as well, right? Many of you know, I no longer have any contact with my family. It is not, and most likely is never going to work out with my family, unfortunately. And I have had to grapple a lot with the past, and with trying to understand certain behaviors and certain situations, but every time, when I'm in therapy or when I'm thinking by myself, my therapist will remind me so that I'm able to remind myself, "Their behaviors were never about you. Their actions are never... They were never about you." They were about X, Y, and Z things that quite frankly, I'm just not ready to share at this point. But let's say you have a family that you don't get along with, or you have childhood trauma and your family members were your abusers, and let's say you have parents who gaslight you, and when you try to talk to them about certain things that happened, your parents say, "That never happened, I don't know what you're talking about," or they say things like, "I thought you had a great childhood," or they try to guilt-trip you and say things like, "Oh, I guess I'm just such a horrible parent," very sarcastically. Let's say you have a parent like that, it can be really, really confusing and difficult for you to try to figure out what the truth is, because you have certain feelings and certain memories, but then somebody else who was there is also telling you something completely different, and so you are left feeling very confused and a little bit chaotic because you know what you remember, and it's very painful to not only be invalidated, but to have people tell you that your memories are wrong. And so it's really helpful in these moments to remember, again, it's not about you. People might tell you that your memories are wrong because they don't want to face it themselves. People might invalidate you because they don't want to have those feelings. They are running from feelings themselves. Some families will invalidate people or gaslight people, or say that things never happened so that they can keep their own secrets, so that they can maintain the appearance of normalcy and happiness and functionality. It has so little to do with you, truly. The same goes for, let's say you go to the grocery store to go grocery shopping, and you're checking out and your cashier is miserable. I had a cashier a few weeks ago, I went to the grocery store, and as I was almost finished, I had all these groceries in my cart, the cashier... Or actually the person comes on on the loudspeaker in the grocery store, and they're like, "Just so you know, our system is down and we're only taking cash right now." And so people were up in arms, because who carries that much cash on them? I feel like people rarely pay for groceries with cash anymore, certainly not me. So people were up in arms, people were leaving all their groceries and they're running out of the store, people are running to the ATM, people are screaming, yelling, and I actually didn't know it because I didn't hear it on the loudspeaker at the time. And so I wheel my cart up to the cashier and I'm standing in line, and she looks at me and she's like, "Hey, how are you?" And I was like, "I'm great, thank you, how are you?" As an aside, I was not great. I was having a terrible day, but I was like, "You know what? I'm going to be really nice." She was like, "You do know that it's cash only?" And I was like, "Just this lane, or everywhere?" And she was like, "Our system is down, we're not taking cards right now anywhere, so if you don't have cash, then you can't pay for these." And I was like, "Oh." She was like, "I don't know how you didn't hear that on the speaker earlier." And I was getting heated, let me tell you. Luckily there was a very kind man there who heard the way she was talking to me, and I don't even remember what he did, but he said something to kind of defuse the tension and I walked away, but I was fuming as I was walking away. And one of the things I had to keep saying to myself over and over and over again is "It is not about me. Her rudeness has nothing to do with me as a person, and I am not taking on that energy. That is hers to deal with. I am not absorbing that." And then I kind of do this visualization exercise where I picture myself almost turning into a rock, so that things will just bounce off me, so that I don't absorb it, because a lot of times I'm a sponge, so I got to turn into a rock. This happens even in stores when you're shopping, grocery shopping, whatever it may be. It also happens among friends or acquaintances, and I got hit with it hard a couple weeks ago, where I have this distant friend who's getting married and they... She has a shower that's coming up, and I am not going to be able to attend the shower, and so I wanted to send a gift. And so I of course did my due diligence and checked in with the maid of honor to make sure that I could reach out and ask for an address so that I can send this gift, and the maid of honor was like, "Yep, go right ahead, you can reach out," and so... Or maybe the maid of honor didn't say exactly that, but whatever the maid of honor said was pretty much like, "Yeah, go ahead." Like, "She knows, she knows about the shower." And so I just text her, and I just said like, "Hey, I'm not going to be able to make it to the shower, but I wanted to send you a gift. What is your address?" That is literally all of the information that I revealed. I didn't give anything away, nothing. Within like an hour or so, I get a text from one of this person's other friends, a person who used to be a friend of mine, but who I haven't talked to in years, and don't care to talk to, reached out to me and was like, "Don't say any more about what you're going to be doing and when, because this needs to be a surprise. We all want this to be a surprise and so does the bride," and it was just a passive-aggressive text message. And I was so hurt by it, because number one, I did my due diligence, I made sure that what I... I was very careful with what I said to not let anything slip. Number two, I don't understand, I texted one person, so why is it that that person that I texted felt the need to share my messages with somebody else, right? Obviously I know you're talking about me, obviously I know you have a problem with what I said, even though I don't know what I said, to the point where the person I texted, the bride, I asked for her address, she still hasn't gotten back to me. So I did something, I clearly did something, of which I don't frigging know, but this is exactly why I have chosen to cut ties with so many people in my life, because I don't put up with this bullshit, because it really got to me, and I started crying and I started saying to David, like, "I don't understand why people have to do this to me. I feel like people don't like me and I don't know what I did. I did everything I possibly could to not let the surprise out. I checked with the maid of honor. I just don't know, whatever." But I was taking it so personally until I sat down and I thought, and I was like, "You know what? This is actually who they are," because I've known these people for many, many years, and I've been around different groups and I've heard, they all talk shit about each other. Every time somebody so much as sneezes, somebody else knows about it. They all talk shit, they all gossip, they all look for something that somebody does wrong, and it just happened to be me. It just so happened to be me this time. I did something wrong, and instead of reaching out to me and saying, "Hey," I don't know, telling me what I did wrong, they're just going to ignore me or be passive-aggressive. Mind you, these are people that are way older than me. So it's just like, it's not about me. This is what they do. This is what they do for fun. They chew people up and spit them out for fun. And as soon as I was able to realize that, I felt so much better, and then I was able to just laugh it off and go, "Yep, this is what they do," and let it go, and didn't say anything, and realized, "You know what? I don't want friends like this, and we're done here." I also should say, I don't want that to sound like I have cut people off abruptly, because I haven't, and I don't recommend that. If you want to learn more about cutting people off versus talking to them and setting boundaries, you can look back in the previous episodes, but suffice it to say that these are people who I have decided just aren't good for me, and so these friendships are not going to go on. But it's not about me, it was never about me, and it was never about you either. How much angst and anger and frustration and tears do you think could have been saved if you remember that people's actions truly have nothing to do with you? How many tears, how many less tears would've been shed if you acknowledged that people, nine times out of 10, are just operating according to their own rules in life, and if those rules happen to hurt you, they're not really paying too much attention to that? They're not sitting up at night going, "How can I hurt this person's feelings?" They're just trying to make it through their lives, and that's not me saying that it's okay, it's not. But what I'm hoping that this does is try to take a lot of the pressure off of you to feel like you need to be better, like you did something wrong, like you need to change things. Listen, we all need work. We all need work, we all have things we have to change, but you don't need people to make you feel terrible, and you don't need to be personalizing people's actions in order to elicit change. People love to gossip, they live on it. People love to talk about other people because it makes them feel better. Families love to keep their secrets, because if we keep our secrets, then we maintain the system, then we don't have to deal with the pain and the feelings. Rude people out there exist because they're having bad days, and they project all over the world, and very little of it is personal. And the moment that you realize this and can continue to tell yourself this, that's the moment that dealing with people and being in relationships with people, friendships with people, becomes so much more manageable. I love you, I hope you have a wonderful week, and I will be holding you in the light. Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma, and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks, so please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you, and we appreciate your support.

Mental health missionary Sarah Tatarski joins Alyssa on this week's episode to discuss options for when weekly outpatient therapy just isn't enough. Sarah discussed her experiences with alternative treatment options such as partial hospitalization programs, ketamine, and alpha-Stim. She also provides new perspectives on navigating some of the major flaws in the mental health system.   Sarah Tatarski's Instagram: @vulnerableandnotafraid  Adult Children of Alcoholics & Dysfunctional Families Info on the Alpha-Stim device   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma You can also check out Alyssa at www.alyssascolari.com   Transcript: Alyssa Scolari: Hey everyone, this is just a quick note that Sarah wanted me to hop on and let you all know. Sarah's mom was not her abuser, so her father was an alcoholic and he was her main abuser when he was alive. Sarah and her mom have had an enmeshed relationship since she was young. Alyssa Scolari: That caused her mother to be a trauma trigger for her, so she just wanted me to come on and clarify that just so you can know who is who and didn't you know, think that somebody was her abuser when in fact they were not. Alyssa Scolari: So, I hope you enjoy this episode. Alyssa Scolari: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and we have a guest episode today. It is so rare that we have guests on the podcast these days, but there is a special person who I met just like Jennifer Burns, which Jennifer, if you haven't listened to older episodes, Jennifer is the woman who we talked about crystals, with and how crystals have been used and have helped her with her trauma recovery. Alyssa Scolari: I met Jennifer just because she was a podcast listener and we connected. And we started talking about a topic that we were really passionate about. And a similar thing has happened with today's guest. Her name is Sarah Tatarski. And I met Sarah basically, through the podcast. She was a listener of the podcast, reached out and we started talking via Instagram. Alyssa Scolari: Now, Sarah is an artist, an aspiring entrepreneur, a cat mom, and a mental health missionary. She recently graduated from college in May of 2021, and has been on a mission since then to work through her core wounds from childhood and early adult life. Alyssa Scolari: After four years of only doing CBT and feeling ready to be deeply challenged, she tried more intensive therapeutic approaches. These include trauma focused treatment centers, family therapy, EMDR, ketamine for major depressive disorder, and the use of a cranial electrotherapy stimulation device called Alpha-Stim. Alyssa Scolari: Sarah recently started a mental health focused Instagram called Vulnerable and Not Afraid, to share her recovery from trauma and educate people on other therapeutic options that have personally helped her. Now, we are talking about a really important topic today, and I know I say that shit every week. So, forgive my redundancy, but you know how I love all things, mental health. Alyssa Scolari: But I think that this is particularly, important because for the last two years on this podcast, we have spoken about therapy and treatment pretty much from like a standard outpatient setting. So, how to process things when you're going to therapy once a week or twice a week in your standard outpatient setting. And that isn't always enough. And there certainly, have been many times where it wasn't enough for me. And I know that there are many people out there that hasn't been enough for either including Sarah. Alyssa Scolari: So, we are talking about different treatment options for when you find yourself in a place where therapy once a week or twice a week is just not enough. So, with that said, I will stop talking and I'm going to turn it over to Sarah. Hi, Sarah, welcome to the podcast. Sarah Tatarski: Hello. I'm excited to be here. Alyssa Scolari: I'm really excited to have you. I know we were actually, supposed to record like a week ago, and then I had COVID and lost my voice and sounded like not even remotely myself. So, thank you for rescheduling and bearing with me. Let's start out by saying, or by me asking you, like, tell me what even makes you passionate about this? If you're comfortable, can you tell me about a little bit of your own experiences? Sarah Tatarski: Yeah, in regards to seeking mental health treatment or my trauma or all of it? What particularly? Alyssa Scolari: Yeah. I think, you have a lot of experience and knowledge on alternative forms of treatment. And so, I guess what my question would be is like, did you get to a certain point in your life where you were like, "Hey, just going to therapy once a week isn't enough for me?" How did you know what was going on in your life? Things like that. Sarah Tatarski: Yeah. So, I've had a couple different, I guess you could say breaking points in my life. The first one was March 2019, and I had to take a medical withdrawal from school, but I instantly, felt better not being in school. The stressors were gone. I said, "Okay, cool. I can manage this." Sarah Tatarski: And I trudged along December 2020 came, I had this dramatic memory that I didn't remember resurface. I was living back at home with my mom and I was just spiraling like crazy. And that's when my... The first time my therapist said, "Sarah, you need to go to this trauma center." And I said, "Eh, we'll see." I told her the memory finally. And then, I felt better again. Sarah Tatarski: And so, I just trudge along, trudge along and finished school. And then, I just completely fell apart because post grad depression is real. I don't think people talk about it enough. They're like, "It's so fun. Oh, my gosh, congrats." And I said, "I'm miserable. And I have no path anymore. And I don't know what the hell I'm doing." And a lot of my friends went through this too, especially us graduated in 2020 and 2021, we were so burnt out from COVID and the huge changes we had to go through. Sarah Tatarski: So, for me, I said, "Oh, I'm going to take a break." And that break turned into me, spiraling constantly. And it just got to a point in end of June where I was not really eating, I wasn't really sleeping. That same memory came nagging at my brain. And my therapist said, "You need to forego your income and just go to a trauma center." And I said, "Okay." Alyssa Scolari: Ah, that's a hard thing to hear. That's a really hard thing to hear. Sarah Tatarski: Yeah, it just got to the breaking point then. And I had moved back home again in May 2021 with my mom, which didn't realize back then, but she was a huge trigger, and I didn't quite grasp why she was. And until later after all these therapies I've done, but I was just absolutely miserable. And I said, "Okay, you know what? I'm finally going to do this. I have the ability to not work. I have really good insurance. I'm going to take advantage of this." Sarah Tatarski: And so, that was the line where I was, I'm just miserable every day in my life to the point where I don't know if I can lip. So, that was my breaking point in June 2021. Alyssa Scolari: So, you're saying like you were at that point where you were like, "I just don't even know if I want to be alive anymore? Like, my safety might be on the line? Sarah Tatarski: Yeah, I think we never struggled with SI, suicidal ideation much, but it was getting to that point where I just felt like, I don't know, can I go forward in life? And that's what motivated me to get different help and more intense help. Alyssa Scolari: Okay. So, I really appreciate that you said that, because I think it's very important to highlight that this country makes it seem like in order. I mean, I guess we can just also start out by saying that the system for higher levels of care, isn't the greatest, it's not the greatest. Alyssa Scolari: And so, on one hand, we shame people from talking about their suicidal thoughts, for fear of them getting locked up. But then, on the other hand, when people have suicidal thoughts, they are often told when they go to a hospital and they want treatment. They're often told, "Well, you actually, have to make an attempt," in order to be hospitalized or in order to not even just be hospitalized, but in order to eventually, get to a treatment center. Alyssa Scolari: So, I think it's really, important that you said, "You know what? I'm not necessarily suicidal. I'm not necessarily a danger to myself, but I'm not okay with the quality of life that I currently have. And therefore, I'm seeking alternative forms of treatment," because you don't have to get to a point where your life is on the line to decide, to seek different forms of treatment. I love that you said that. Sarah Tatarski: Yeah. And definitely, I didn't want to get to that point. And it was teetering between that. I've met friends at my trauma centers who are, have attempted, were attempting, got transferred from intensive care to where I was. And yeah, I don't think it's acknowledged enough that you don't have to be either attempt or actively, planning to seek help because I didn't want to get to that point. I never want to. And I hopefully, never will. Alyssa Scolari: You had mentioned a little while ago that you realized after different types of treatment, that your mom was a trigger for you. And one of the questions I have is, was it difficult for you to go to a treatment while living, because you had lived with your mom while doing some of this treatment, was it difficult to live with somebody who is a trigger while going to a treatment? Because I think a lot of people can probably, relate to that. Sarah Tatarski: Yeah, it was a whole another challenge. I'm in my trauma for, let's see, the first trauma center I went to, I was there from 9:00 to 4:00 p.m. I did therapy three times a week individually. We had groups all day, trauma groups, four times a week and relapse prevention, which was incredible, which by the way, I had no idea what relapse prevention was. And I said, "I don't do drugs." Sarah Tatarski: So, I just laughed it off until I got there and said, "Oh, I have a lot of toxic behaviors that are not related to alcohol or any kinds of other drugs." So, life changing. Alyssa Scolari: Yes. Sarah Tatarski: But just doing that all day and having the realizations that I was having. And then, I come home... And by the way, I didn't mention this. I'm in my childhood house where I experienced my trauma, and that is where I'm living right now. Alyssa Scolari: Oh, my... Okay. Sarah Tatarski: That's a whole another level of, I'm living with a trigger, I'm living in a trigger, and I came home every day and I'm like, "Ah." I'm like running around, like a chicken with its head cut off. I'm freaking out. I can't ground myself. I can't focus on my treatment. And the only relief I got was when I stayed with my friend for a whole week and I was like, "Oh." I can come back, and I just lay in bed. I'm like, "I'm so happy and relaxed." But it was extremely challenging. I don't recommend it. I recommend anyone doing what I did. Alyssa Scolari: Yeah. Sarah Tatarski: I mean, living with your trigger and living in the house you were abused. I recommend trauma treatment. Absolutely. Of course, I wouldn't be on here otherwise recommending it. But it made the process that much harder because there was a point, I told my therapist, I said, "I just want to be a prostitute right now. And move out of my house." And he's like, "Sarah, no." And I'm like, "But that's how I feel." And he said, "I'm not going to act on it." Sarah Tatarski: But that's how overwhelmed I am right now. It's like, I will do anything to get out of my house. Of course, I never acted on it. But that's the thought... Alyssa Scolari: Right. So, the point where... Sarah Tatarski: ... that happened. Alyssa Scolari: ... you're considering. Yeah, you're considering like prostitution or sex work to get out. You're like, "I will do whatever I have to get out of this place." Sarah Tatarski: Which is, there's nothing wrong with sex work. It's just not my... I have too much trauma to engage in that field sex workers. You'll do whatever you want. But yeah, that's just to the point. I was so vulnerable that that's what I was just willing to do. And that's not healthy situation to be in. Alyssa Scolari: I mean, right, exactly. It would be ideal. Again, like you said, there's no issue with sex workers. It's feeling like you're trapped and you're backed into a corner to the point where your only way out is considering an option that you know would be retraumatizing for you. That's when you know all the alarm bells are sounding, you're like, "Okay, I need to do something here." Sarah Tatarski: Exactly. Yeah, it was very intense. Alyssa Scolari: So, then can you talk a little bit about, I guess, let's go in specifically, like where should we start? What type of treatment did you start with? Because I know you've done a couple of different things. Sarah Tatarski: Yeah, there were a lot of things I've done the past year. So, I'll just briefly summarize. And then, if you want to ask more specific questions, we can go from there. But the first thing that I did was in July 2021, I went to a partial hospitalization program at a trauma center here in New Orleans called River Oaks, recommended fully. Sarah Tatarski: So, I wasn't living there. I was there from 9:00 to 4:00 like I had mentioned. You're just there during the day, you don't live in the hospital. It's scary inside. I would not want to... Not wanting to stay there. I did not want to stay there. But... Alyssa Scolari: Scary like hospital setting type like? Sarah Tatarski: Yes, it was cold and there were not a lot of lights, and you went outside or not a lot of windows, and you went outside for like 20 minutes a day. It was like jail. So... Alyssa Scolari: Yes, so many partial hospitalizations, like programs are like that. I've been to one myself and it feels like jail. And I'm like, "Why aren't these a little bit happier? You're trying to help people with their mental health, why do we feel like we're locked up?" Sarah Tatarski: Exactly. So, I did that. And then, once I was done with that program, I started seeing a therapist for EMDR. And then, in December 2021, I went to a residential treatment program called Innova Grace in San Antonio, Texas. And I was doing a lot of EMDR there. I used the [inaudible 00:14:40] bed. I used the Alpha-Stim, which I'm wearing right now, like I mentioned earlier. Sarah Tatarski: And after that, continued to do EMDR, that's what I'm doing with my therapist right now. I started ketamine for major depressive disorder. And now, I'm using the Alpha-Stim again. And forgot to mention on top of that, the past, however many months it's been since August 2021. So, nine months, I've been in family therapy. Sarah Tatarski: So, I'm doing 10 different therapies. And also, I recently, joined Adult Children of Alcoholics group and dysfunctional family. So, I've been going to that support group about every two weeks to every week. So, if you want me to expand on all of that, that's a lot of different treatments that I just mentioned. So, happy to talk about any of it in more detail. Alyssa Scolari: Yes, I have questions. I think the first question is, how did you end up getting involved in, especially in a post COVID world, in Adult Children of Alcoholic support group, because I think that there are many people out there who are listening, who would be very interested in that. Sarah Tatarski: Yeah. So, there are always meetings everywhere in the country and world at all times. And a lot of them are on Zoom now, too, which is great. So, you can just hop on Zoom at any time. And for me, I prefer in-person group. So, I go to the one at the church near my house at 5:00 p.m. on Sundays. Sarah Tatarski: And the way to get involved is to just go to their website, look up Adult Children of Alcoholic/dysfunctional families. And if you want to go to in-person meeting, you can just look up your town and see where it is. And if you don't want to go in-person, you can join literally any group, like from what I've seen online, probably, at least half of them are hybrid. Sarah Tatarski: So, you can go in-person if you want, you can go in Zoom if you want. But oh, when they read the laundry list, I don't know if you've ever read that. It's the 14 traits that you can have as an adult with having a dysfunctional family or an alcoholic. And I fit all 14 traits. So, that's when I knew I belonged. Alyssa Scolari: Oh, I don't think that I've ever read that before, but I bet it would be very jarring for me. Sarah Tatarski: You will be surprised. And when I say all 14 traits, I don't mean I have those now. I mean, at some point in my life, I have all 14 of them. So, even if you have one, I'm pretty sure, they're like, if you have one of these traits, you are welcome here. Alyssa Scolari: Wow. Okay. And for the listeners out there, I will link that in the show notes, the website that you can go and you can check it out because I think it's very important and I know that a lot of you can relate. So, okay, cool. So, thank you for that. Alyssa Scolari: So, now question about, so in terms of EMDR, I have, I think... So, I'm going through EMDR right now and I've been open about my experiences, both on my Instagram and I've shared a little bit on the podcast and we've also had people come on and talk about EMGR. Alyssa Scolari: I guess, the main question I have for you about EMGR because for those of you out there who don't know what it is, I talk about it in depth with a licensed clinical social worker. Her name is Melissa Parks on the podcast, and you can feel free to go and check that out. It is a really fantastic treatment for trauma that focuses on rewiring your nervous system, like your brain. So, for EMGR, did you find that was particularly helpful for you? Sarah Tatarski: It's definitely helped. It's not perfect. Of course, no treatment is perfect, but I've honestly, been only able to work on and am working on two memories. But the thing about these specific memories I'm working on is that, they hold a key to other things that I can't remember. And that's why, my therapist says we're going to keep working on these two. And I'm like, "No, I want to be done with them." Sarah Tatarski: But it's definitely, helped me to calm down in regards to my body not being as reactive. And I've noticed that the first memory that really resurfaced after about eight years and that drove me to get the help that I needed. My reaction to it has gone down a lot. Sarah Tatarski: My bodily reaction, I used to like throw up. I used to not eat. And now, it will come up and I'll be like, "Okay, deep breath. It's okay. You're safe like, that's not happening right now." We've talked... I've talked about it many times. I opened up to friends, I went up to multiple therapists. Sarah Tatarski: And so, I'm able to calm myself down. On the past, I literally, I would line around like running around my house. I don't know what the heck I'm doing. I'm scared, all this stuff. So, I significantly reduce my reactions while, and I don't want people to think that it gets rid of the memory. I think some people are like, "I want to get rid of my memories." And I'm like, "That's not how it works." But it reduces your bodily reaction to it. Sarah Tatarski: And I definitely notice, like I said, I'm not violently reacting, like I used to in the past. So, I found relief with it. My brain also likes to block me thinking about these two particular memories because there's some of the most intense memories I have. But as I continue to work on it, I'm able to be less reactive and process it with my therapist. Alyssa Scolari: Yeah, yeah. No, and I think that's ultimately, right. There's no such thing as a perfect treatment. But EMDR, I think is supposed to be beneficial at just like relaxing your nervous system. So, that like hyper vigilance isn't there as much. All right. So, can you talk about Alpha-Stim, and then there was one other... What did you say in addition to Alpha-Stim? Sarah Tatarski: I've been doing ketamine for major depressive disorders. So, there's that, in addition to the Alpha-Stim, family therapy, and then my trauma centers, and EMDR. Alyssa Scolari: Okay. Sarah Tatarski: Which is all like, they're all interconnected, anyway. Alyssa Scolari: Right, right. And can you talk about Alpha-Stim? Because I think that's a very new term. I'm not even familiar with Alpha-Stim. Sarah Tatarski: I am shocked at, I actually, spoke with a psychiatrist a couple of weeks ago. He monitors me when I'm doing ketamine. And I told him about it. He said, "I've never heard of that." And I'm like, "Whew, this is alarming." I'll go into details about it, but I'll give you a little bit of a history because I was wondering, why is this not talked about every single day? Why is this not open on the market? And I'll tell you this. Sarah Tatarski: So, I read about the history of Alpha-Stim. Yes, I'm a nerd. I read the little pamphlet that came with it. But so, the way that it works is, it uses biophysics and biophysics used to be taught in medical school up until the 20th century. And then, the chemistry took over and they stopped teaching biophysics. Of course, we know that pharmaceutical industry has a huge power over everything in this country. Sarah Tatarski: And so, I found that interesting that they used to teach biophysics, but now they don't. And that's probably, why it's not really mainstream as you would want to call it. But I'll just read you exactly, what they say from the website, because I don't want to give any misinformation to y'all. Sarah Tatarski: So, the way that it works is, it's cranial electrotherapy stimulation, and it uses small electrical currents to stimulate certain brain regions. And these currents mimic the electrical activity naturally occurring in the brain, which in turn regulates the electrical part of the brain's electrical chemical signals. And this is how it helps you to get piece of calm. It basically, regulates you without any drugs, just pure biophysics, which our body is... It's just a huge electrical network. Sarah Tatarski: And that's how they use the power of our body to heal with the Alpha-Stim. And you have to use it consistently, like every day over months to really get the full benefits. But you feel benefits within even like a day, because I hadn't used it in three months since I was at my last trauma center, and I got in the mail about two weeks ago. I put it on my ears and after, I was like, "I feel so much better already." And I forgot how magical this thing is. So... Alyssa Scolari: Wow. Wow. Sarah Tatarski: It's been incredible. I'm sleeping better. I've had one migraine the past 11 days. I usually, get them every single day of my life. So, I'm not making the stuff up whenever I would never tell anybody to go buy a medical device if it didn't work. But I just feel so much better. I feel more rested, because I have chronic pain due to my trauma, and I just feel a lot more content with the past two weeks, which is hard for me to say, usually. Alyssa Scolari: I mean, yeah, that's incredible is this. So, when you say like, I have this and I put it on my ears, like, is it, what is it? Are they just like little like sensory, like clips you put on your ears and you have like a little machine around your neck? Sarah Tatarski: Yeah, it's literally this small. Alyssa Scolari: Wow. Sarah Tatarski: Nobody can see it. It's about the size of like a palm, or like a hand depending on how big your hands are. I know, I have a little... I'm small. So, my hands are a little small, but it's about the size of my hand. And the way that it works is that, you put a solution on your ears, and then you clip the electrodes onto your ear. And it just sounds little, little electrical signal to your ear. Sarah Tatarski: And so, you feel this very mild little prick to your ear, but it doesn't hurt. And that's it. You use it at your house. You can use it on an airplane. You can use it wherever you want to use it. It's just like the size, even smaller than the iPhone. So, it's so easy to carry around if you need it to use it anywhere. Alyssa Scolari: And is there like, is it something that like insurance covers, or do people just buy it out of pocket? Do they have to go through like a therapist or a treatment center or anything like that? Sarah Tatarski: So, from what I know, the only insurance that covers it is TRICARE through the military. And only if you're active duty, will they pay for it in full, which is... Alyssa Scolari: Okay. Sarah Tatarski: ... annoying. So, without insurance, it costs $840. And while it sounds like a lot, the amount of money I've spent going to doctors asking, "What is wrong with me? Why am I in so much pain?" The amount of days I've missed work, the amount of days I've missed out on life, the $840 is beyond worth it. Alyssa Scolari: Yes. Sarah Tatarski: And some insurances may cover it. I don't have that answer. My insurance is really good. And they said, "No." They outright said, "We're not even going to give you money back." And I said, "That's really frustrating." And $840 is a lot for people. It's a lot for me. But I got to a point where I was just breaking down and I was like, "I can't do this. I cannot live like this every day of my life." Sarah Tatarski: And so, I took the plunge, I ordered it, I use it twice a day, and I just, I feel so much better. I can't even emphasize. I wish I could show data to show how much less pain I'm in. But like I said, they have a nine out of 10-success rate, and they've been studying this for over 40 years. So, this isn't something that's new to the market. It's not, "Oh, in 2020 we invented this device." It's 40 plus years of research. Alyssa Scolari: Yeah. And it's infuriating because it's also one of those things where it's like, like you said earlier, why is this not talked about more? And it's like, "Well, because it's so successful." And when it's so successful, who suffers big pharma because people require less and less treatment and medication. And therefore, if you heal, you aren't going to be paying as much money on other forms of treatment like meds. It's very, it's no surprise that it's one of those things that's kept hush, hush because... Sarah Tatarski: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because I'm not going to go too much on the tangent because then we would talk for hours. But the big pharma is based on a subscription model. They want you to be sick for your entire life. Why would they not want you to be? They want you to suffer. So, they make money. And that's why I think, insurances aren't going to cover it because they are very much tied into big pharma, of course. Sarah Tatarski: And so, I tell everybody since I got it the past two weeks, anyone that I meet or who was in my life, I'm like, "Pay the $840 if you can, it is worth every dime." And I would never tell anybody to buy something if I really didn't believe it, because that's not like a $100. That's 840. But... Alyssa Scolari: Yes. Sarah Tatarski: ... Like I said, I mean, I'm sure the amount of us who've been through trauma or even if you haven't been through significant amount of trauma, you probably, have some amount of pain from being on your computer all day. So, I just recommend it to anybody if you're able to afford it or, save up to get it. It's really, been incredible. And I'm so lucky that my trauma center, I went to in December to February had access to the Alpha-Stim for me. Alyssa Scolari: Yeah. That's incredible. And I will also link the website, the Alpha-Stim device on the show notes, so you can check that out. And then, so let's talk about ketamine because this is one that I am more familiar with, but I have not spoken with anybody who has gone through it. So, can you talk about like what it is and what your experience is with it? Sarah Tatarski: Yeah. So, I will say there are different kinds of ketamine treatment. There's the nasal spray, which I do. There's the shot and there's also IV. And I don't know which form is the most intense, but I know that the IV one is you get a very strong high and it's very strong, with Spravato, which is the ketamine that I do. Sarah Tatarski: I do two nasal sprays, one in each nose, and you can go up to three sprays or three doses. Sorry, I don't know how many sprays it is, but I do the two. Some people do three doses. I'm very sensitive to drugs in general. So, I was like, "Let's go with the lower one. I don't want to get too high." I would like to see how I feel first. Alyssa Scolari: Yeah. Sarah Tatarski: So, I started looking into do ketamine last fall and my insurance rejected me. I don't know how I don't qualify for it. I would just spent two months at a trauma center. I don't know how they... Apparently, they didn't want to cover it. I struggled with major depressive disorder. Sarah Tatarski: So, I felt really upset. And then, so kindly the clinic I went to called me and I said, "You know that the Johnson& Johnson Patient Assistance Foundation could help cover you, if you qualify, if you don't make enough money, or if you don't, there's some income bracket level that I'm not 100% sure what it is. And if your insurance denies you, they could consider covering you for up to year, and then renew you. Sarah Tatarski: And so, I applied. I'll be honest, I had been making $0. I'd just come out of a trauma center. So, I definitely knew I would qualify because one, my insurance rejected me. Two, my income was at zero at that point. Alyssa Scolari: Right. Sarah Tatarski: And they sent me a card, and for a full year they will cover it. And all I have to pay is, I think a $25 copay each time because out of pocket, it's like $250. So, I'm extremely, lucky that the J&J Patient Assistance Foundation was covering me. And yeah, I started going in March 2022. It's a big commitment, I will admit that. I don't know what it's like for, like I said, the IV or the shot. Sarah Tatarski: But with Spravato, you have to go twice a week for a month and you can't drive yourself there or back because you're too high. And then, the next month, you only go once a week. And then, after that is maintenance, if you choose. So... Alyssa Scolari: Wow. Sarah Tatarski: During the... Yeah, it's a big commit. During the process, you're just lying in a room for two hours by yourself. At least, that's how my clinic does it. So, I'm just lying there and I'm like, "Hi, hi is heck in." I'm just lying there. And it's a really, nice time to almost meditate or just reflect for two hours. I literally, can't do anything. I'm too high. I can't barely look at my phone. Sarah Tatarski: And it's been nice to have that reflection time, while I'm not exactly sure, exactly if it's benefiting me because it's hard. I had just come from a trauma center. I'm in therapy. I'm in family therapy. I have so many variables in my life that are helping me to heal that I can't exactly say, is ketamine helped me because there's just too many factors in my life right now that are helping me feel better. But that forced relaxation has been a challenge for me, because I struggle with relaxing and forcing myself to just exist in the world and just be... Alyssa Scolari: Right, as to many trauma survivors, yeah. Sarah Tatarski: Exactly. So, that's been one of the most healing aspects of ketamine is just being. I even cried during one session. I was like, "What are these emotions that are just suddenly coming up?" I was like, "This is healthy. What?" Alyssa Scolari: What is this? Yeah. Sarah Tatarski: So, it's supposed to help people who struggle a lot with SI. Again, suicide ideation for people who don't know the shorthand. But I have other friends who've done ketamine in different forms and they say, it has changed their life. Again, too many factors in my life are going on for me to give you a definite answer. Yes, it's helping me. Alyssa Scolari: Hard to say. It's hard to say, yeah. Sarah Tatarski: But just being in that community, going to clinic every week and seeing the psychiatrist and stuff, it's more nice to just like have a little community of little ketamine people and we talk to each other. So, that's been nice. Alyssa Scolari: And there are restrictions because ketamine is a drug. So, are there like, do they do thorough evaluations on like, drug abuse history? Because I would imagine that can be tricky. Sarah Tatarski: Yeah. So, I forgot to mention. Of course, I had to do an evaluation. They had to even diagnose me because technically, I mean, there's a lot of diagnoses that I have that are not diagnosed officially. So, they had to do that to make sure, and then send that evaluation to my insurance and be like, "Hey, she has major depressive disorder." Sarah Tatarski: As a former... If you're a recovering drug addict, you can still do ketamine, but you have to be heavily much more monitored than me for who doesn't have a history of drug abuse. But definitely, they're not just throwing it around and saying, "Oh, yeah, everybody can do ketamine." Even if you have major depressive disorder, they need to clear you to make sure that you won't relapse or that you're being monitored on different levels to know that you're okay throughout the process and not going to relapse into a drug addiction. Alyssa Scolari: Now, do you know like, okay, so EMDR helps relapse your nervous system. And similarly, do you know how ketamine is supposed to work like on the body? Sarah Tatarski: Yes. So, I was always thinking ketamine was a psychedelic, but it's not. It slows down the brain and that's what it does. It just slows everything down. You're like in a drunken state while you're in the room. And I think that feeling of, "Oh, I have time to really think and just exist in the world and relax and think about things in a different way. Instead of, with trauma, our anxiety is so high. Sometimes, we can't even think straight. We're just like, ruminating, ruminating, intrusive thoughts all the time. Sarah Tatarski: And yeah, that's how it worked. It slows down the body. And I should mention that, if you're on antidepressants, they want you to continue to stay on those throughout the process. They don't want you to get off of it. And personally, I'm not on an antidepressant right now, but I still qualified because I had tried two different medications and it didn't help me. Alyssa Scolari: Okay. Sarah Tatarski: So, if you have tried two different anxiety medications or depression meds and it didn't work, you can qualify. So, that's why I qualified. But they want you to stay on your antidepressants. And the other thing about Spravato is that, they say, "We don't exactly know what it does. We just know it helps." And so, welcome to big pharma, guys. They don't exactly know what happened... Alyssa Scolari: Yeah, you know it helps. Sarah Tatarski: But they say, "Hey, it helps." So, I'm not complaining. But yeah, you have to be on or continue to remain on your antidepressants throughout the process. They don't want you to cold quit in the middle of ketamine. Alyssa Scolari: Okay, yeah, yeah. I would imagine there's also still so much research to be done about it because I do think it is newer. Sarah Tatarski: Yeah, Spravato was approved I believe in 2019. So, it's very new... Alyssa Scolari: Okay. Sarah Tatarski: ... compared to other drugs. Alyssa Scolari: Yup, very new. And a lot of studies have been on halt because of the pandemic. So, we're still learning. We're still learning. Now, I do have one final question for you, if you don't mind. And this is partially, a question that I have personally, but also a question I think a lot of other people will have. Alyssa Scolari: So, in going to different forms of therapy, right? It sounds like you have had good experiences, but I know that there are so many people out there who have tried alternative forms of therapy and have had bad experiences and places that are poorly run, places that do more harm than good. I know that have certainly, been the experience for myself and many others. What is some advice that you can give people who I think are just feeling down and out about the quality of mental healthcare that they've experienced? Sarah Tatarski: You have to go in with an open mind because these places are run by humans. I mean, like I said, at the first trauma center I went to, it was almost like a jail. And I left, thank God at 4:00 every day, I did not have to sleep there. And there is some stuff that would go down at night, for sure. Sarah Tatarski: Everybody in there has trauma and things happen. So, I think for me, none of the places I've been to, none of my therapists have been perfect. Perfection actually, doesn't even exist in the world. So, doesn't want to say that. But, I mean, of course, if there's abuse going on, if there's emotional abuse or physical abuse from the staff and staff, I'm not saying, "Oh, go in with an open mind," just ignore it. Alyssa Scolari: Right. Sarah Tatarski: But I just know that if you go in thinking that everything's going to be exactly right, everything's going to run smoothly at whatever care center you're at or whatever treatment you do, the reality is that, it won't. And you'll probably, be disappointed. I mean, there are definitely flaws at places that I've been to. Sarah Tatarski: The place I was just at, called Innova Grace. I have had tremendous healing from them. But there's things that could be worked on. Absolutely, could be worked on to make it an even better program. But there are some things I just had to let go because I knew that doing therapy at Innova Grace twice a week and getting EMDR and I was in Texas. So, I was away from my mom. I was away from my childhood home. I was so grateful to be there, and to be able to have that help, that there are some things, if it wasn't overly concerning that I just had to let go in the moment. Alyssa Scolari: Yeah. Sarah Tatarski: And I would complain, I would speak up if there's something that made me uncomfortable and there were things that did change. And sometimes, it didn't. But I also think another thing is, people might be disappointed in alternative treatments because you put in most of the work, if not all of it, therapists are there to guide you. Sarah Tatarski: And I think that's something, I was naive in believing when I was younger, even probably, like two years ago, not even that long where I thought, "Oh, why isn't this therapist fixing me? Why isn't she doing this? Why X, Y, Z and all this stuff?" I was like, "Therapy only works if you're as honest as you are. If you are, if you hold things from your therapist, you're not going to make any progress. If you keep rejecting the way that you behave and act and that how resistant you are to treatment, you're not going to get better. You can't blame the treatment center. You can't blame your therapist. Of course, again, some therapists suck. I just had a really, awful one from September to December. She told me... I said... Alyssa Scolari: Gosh. Sarah Tatarski: ... "I just, I feel like I can't go in public. And I feel like I can't do things by myself. And I'm just, I'm so upset. I don't know what's wrong with me." And she said, "Just do it." Alyssa Scolari: Oh, wow. That's great advice. Thank you, I never thought of that before. Sarah Tatarski: So, again, I just want to restate, there are people that are super problematic and there's abuse in some of these places, there are. And I'm not saying to go in and be like, "Oh, yeah, ignore it and disassociate from it," which is probably, how you coped this long. Don't do that. But it is run by humans and it is how much you contribute. Sarah Tatarski: Because like I told you, before we started recording, one of my therapists, I told her, I said, "I'm really open." And she called me out and she said, "No, you're not, you're not open." And I'm like, "I got so guarded, and I'm like, whatever." And then, I thought about it and I said, "She's right." And that's how we proceeded forward. I was able to really, work with that therapist and get through so many deep things because I was just completely, honest with her and I let myself cry. Sarah Tatarski: So, that's my advice, be open minded, just know the process isn't perfect. If there are major concerns, voice them. If things don't change, then maybe you need to try a different area, like a different place, a different therapist. And you have to contribute your full honesty and vulnerability to it, or else you will not heal. That's something that I wish I had known when I was 19, when I started the journey. Alyssa Scolari: That is incredible advice. All of it, I agree. I mean, you said it perfectly, you said it perfectly. And I want to thank you for coming on the show because this is something that's really, important to talk about. It's something that you spoke a lot of hard truths that people I think really need to hear, hey, including myself. We all need to hear a lot of this stuff and it's also very inspiring. Alyssa Scolari: And I think it certainly, has given me a lot of hope for the future and for my own recovery. And it's hope that we wouldn't have without your willingness to be vulnerable and come on here and talk about it. So, thank you so, so much. I know that I mentioned Sarah's Instagram in the beginning of this episode, which the name is? Can you give the name one more time? Sarah Tatarski: Vulnerable and Not Afraid. Alyssa Scolari: Vulnerable and Not Afraid. You know that will be in the show notes for today's episode. And I just want to say thank you again for coming on the show today. Sarah Tatarski: Yeah, it was so great talking to you, and I'm happy to answer any of the listeners questions if they directly message you or you can directly message me on my Instagram, I'm happy to do a call or send a voice memo, share resources. That's, I mean, the whole reason I started the Instagram, partly for myself to remind myself, "Hey, this is where I've been." And to help others realize that antidepressants and once a week therapy are not the only choices out there. Alyssa Scolari: Amen. Amen. Thank you so, so much, Sarah. Sarah Tatarski: Yeah, no problem. Alyssa Scolari: Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma. And on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So, please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

Shoplifting and stealing are typically thought of as simple, yet shameful crimes. However, these seemingly simple crimes can be more complex than meets the eye. Tune into this week's episode to learn about the psychological components of shoplifting and stealing.  Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma You can also check out Alyssa at www.alyssascolari.com   Transcript:   Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: What is up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, here with you today. We have also my dog Macy, who is chilling out with us, looking out the window in this little... I bought her this cat perch. So if you haven't been on my Instagram and you don't see pictures of Macy, she's a little seven-pound dog, and so she is super tiny and she loves to look out the window, so I bought her a cat perch. She's sitting behind me looking out the window on her little cat perch. And sometimes neighbors will walk by and she'll bark at them and they wave to her from the window. She's like the neighborhood watchdog. So that's where I'm at today. Alyssa Scolari [01:12]: It is Sunday when I am recording this and I have been having a pretty relaxing weekend. I'm feeling pretty antsy today, actually, and I have been reading this book, Where the Crawdads Sing, which I did not know this, but apparently is really trending right now and I understand why, because it is truly one of the best books I've ever read in my life. I am obsessed. I have not been able to put it down and I have like 60 pages left, and I am going to finish it today. I am so excited. It's been nice to be able to read in this ridiculously hot weather. Alyssa Scolari [01:58]: I don't know what the weather is like where you're at, but it is so hot here and it has been so hot with zero relief. Normally it gets really hot, but then you'll have thunderstorms at the end of the day and then things cool off for a little bit and the plants get a ton of water, but there has been no rain, no thunderstorms. It is just oppressive heat and humidity day after day, and it feels like... I honestly think that this is probably day eight or nine at least above 90 degrees Fahrenheit. It's so wild to me because people say global warming's not a thing, but I remember being little and watching the news and people were making such a big deal of three-day heat waves. So if there was going to be a day where it was going to be 90 degrees or above for three days, I think that's what they call a heat wave. I remember people making a huge deal about that being like, "Oh man, three days. This is so dangerous. People are going to have heat strokes and get really sick and suffer heat exhaustion." Alyssa Scolari [03:19]: I don't think anybody imagined back then, whatever it was, 25, 20 years ago that today in 2022, we would have heat waves that last for literally 9, 10 days with zero relief. It's unreal to me. Even my plants are all wilted. No matter how much water we give them, my plants are like, "Fuck this, I'm out." They all look like they're dying and I feel so bad. I have no clue what I can do. So yeah, it is hot as shit outside and I'm over it. I like the summer, but come on. I need at least a thunderstorm. Give me a thunderstorm, because if not, I just have this heat and oppressive humidity. You walk outside and just start sweating. Alyssa Scolari [04:18]: Anyway, I digress. Today we are talking about shoplifting, which at first glance, you might be like, "Why are we talking about shoplifting on a trauma podcast?" And that is because they are related and they go hand-in-hand. Shoplifting or stealing and mental health are really closely related, and shoplifting, like borderline personality disorder that we did last week, is often stigmatized. And understandably so, right? It is a crime. It is against the frigging law to steal, but I think that this conversation today is going to pose an even greater question of how can we look at shoplifting a little bit differently and are we doing the right thing by simply finding these people or just locking them up? Is there something more that we could be doing to help these people? Because I have worked with a lot of people who have gotten in trouble for shoplifting. Alyssa Scolari [05:27]: Before I was in private practice and working for myself, I worked for a local police department and what one of my many jobs was at this police department was to help kids in the community to stay out of the juvenile justice system, so help basically rehabilitate them after they get into trouble. Now, as you can imagine, the majority of the kids that I saw usually got in trouble for some kind of theft or shoplifting, and it begs the question, why are these kids stealing? Because it's not just a fun pastime for these kids. These kids don't want to catch charges. They do not want to be caught up in the juvenile justice system. So what is going on with these kids? Alyssa Scolari [06:23]: Through a lot of my time, not just working with these kids through the police department, but also in going back in my own history, I have been able to put a lot of the pieces together as to what might be happening with so many of these people. And it's not just kids, it's also adults. And it's not just me. There are a lot of other professionals out there who have been exploring the other sides of shoplifting to try to understand what is truly going on. Now, of course we can assign poverty and lower socioeconomic statuses to stealing. I get it. It is impossible to live in today's age. It feels nearly impossible. So I totally understand that. Alyssa Scolari [07:19]: There's the poverty aspect, and then there's also other psychological aspects to it. It isn't just this simple act that we think it is. When we see people who steal, we write them off as bad people. Bad people. And again, yes, stealing is criminalized, but I don't know any one of us who have never broken the law. I don't know any one of us who have never broken the law in some way, shape or form. Alyssa Scolari [07:53]: If you've pulled out your phone to text while you're driving, if you've talked on the phone while you're driving, if you've never stopped or if you haven't stopped fully at a stop sign and you rolled through a stop sign, hey, you broke the law. If the speed limit is 65 miles an hour and you're going 66 miles an hour, hey, you broke the law. And for some reason, it's like we talk about when people break the law in vehicles or people are acting aggressive on the road and we talk about "Well, try to think of it differently. Try to think about that person who blew past the red light or is speeding. Maybe they have a loved one sick and dying in the hospital and they're rushing to get there." And so we try to reframe and find these ways to have compassion for people who are aggressive on the road. And I love that reframe. It's a great reframe. It helps. It helps those of us who are prone to road rage not be so ragey, but why can't we transfer this over to other crimes like stealing? Alyssa Scolari [09:00]: And I'm not talking about all crimes. I'm not saying that we need to have compassion for murderers, but I'm talking about like stealing. Why are there no reframes for that? Why is it that when we hear that somebody steals, we think that they should rot in jail or be fined or be shown a lesson and we want to send these kids to scared straight programs. Why aren't we looking at this any differently? Alyssa Scolari [09:27]: Luckily, I think that a lot of research is starting to look at shoplifting differently, and what we're finding is that it is a coping mechanism. It is a coping mechanism, just like addiction or gambling. It is something that can give people some sense of control, and it also can help them to numb out from problems or pain. And it also can be a cry for help. I wasn't a chronic stealer or anything. I have like two instances in my life where I remember stealing and both of them weren't from stores because I had too much anxiety for that. They were from other people. So one time I stole... I don't know if anybody remembers these candies, they're Warheads and they were really, really sour when you put them in your mouth and then they were super sweet. I'm talking about them now and I really want one. I need to go find them online and see if they still exist, because they were so amazing. But they were super, super sour when you put them in your mouth, and I remember stealing a few of these from, I cannot remember who, I just remember having them in my hand and looking down and kind of having this feeling of like, "Oh, I stole something." Alyssa Scolari [11:00]: At the time, I remember that feeling was like I didn't really even feel that guilty. I felt like I had a sense of control. I was really little. I was under, probably under seven years old. I was maybe five or six and I remember feeling like I finally had a sense of control over what was going on. I did this, I took this. This is mine. And that clearly is rooted in things that are so beyond the stealing itself. This is something that a lot of younger kids will do. They steal not because they're bad kids, and it's also not because they don't know right from wrong and it's not because we don't know consequences. We know that it's wrong, but what is more wrong are the empty feelings that we have inside of us or the chaotic feelings as a result of living in bad environments. Alyssa Scolari [12:09]: Kids who live in frantic, chaotic, and even sometimes violent and abusive households, they yearn for a sense of control. They desire a sense of control. And sometimes being able to steal something, being able to have something that is totally yours is a great way to feel like you're in control. It's a great way to feel like you're separate from your family for a little bit because you are the one who did this. You planned this, you did it, you have it, you succeeded. It is a great way to numb out from what is going on, regardless of the consequences. Kids aren't thinking about the consequences. Their brains are not developed enough. What kids are thinking of is, "Hey, how can I survive? And I know that I can survive if I find some sense of control," and sometimes that control lies within stealing. Alyssa Scolari [13:06]: And then I also stole something from my cousin. I stole a purse from my cousin when I was little. I cannot remember. I know I was under 10. Maybe I was like eight years old. We were at a Super Bowl party and I stole her purse from her. I totally got caught because what eight-year-old can hide a whole purse? And that, I felt horrible. I don't know if I really did it to have a sense of control, maybe I did, but I remember feeling so much guilt and I don't really even know why I did it. I remember being asked why I did it and I truly didn't know then and I don't totally know now, but looking back on it, I am pretty sure that I did it because I was just crying out for help. I was crying out for help. And that is also what shoplifting can be, a cry for help. I want somebody to catch me. I want to be noticed. I want to be seen. I want somebody to look at me and make me feel like I matter. Alyssa Scolari [14:25]: Kids and adults alike, sometimes when we go without this and we feel like we aren't seen or heard, we will make efforts to be seen and heard in any way possible, and that includes breaking the law. Now, luckily it was my family and everybody was super forgiving. I think, I assume so, because I still had a relationship with these people. I didn't steal from any stores, it was just people and it was awful. I gave it back and there was no harm, no foul, but still, it was terrible. It was terrible when I look back on it because I realize that I was in so much pain and so are many people who steal and shoplift. It's just a way to numb out, because in doing it, what happens? Alyssa Scolari [15:25]: Anybody who has stolen anything, I can imagine... I don't really remember feeling like this when I was little, but I can imagine that what you feel is an adrenaline rush. An adrenaline rush, anxiety and you're just so focused on not getting caught that you're not really thinking about anything else. Then when you get away with it, it's a dopamine hit for your brain. And it is very similar with shopping, buying things. When people are sad, they will spend money, call it retail therapy, and then they get it and they feel great for a few days or maybe a few weeks or maybe even a few minutes, depending on what you get, but that wears off and then you're left with those same chronic feelings of emptiness. This is very similar with shoplifting. You steal something and then you have this dopamine hit like, "Oh my gosh, I did it. I got away with it," and then all of a sudden that emptiness comes back and therefore you need to steal something again, so then you get that little dopamine hit in your brain again. Alyssa Scolari [16:37]: Sometimes all of this stealing can mount into a much more serious mental health disorder like kleptomania, which is where you just cannot resist the urge or the impulse to steal things, whether you need them or not. Just because it's there, you have to steal it. And sometimes that's what this can turn into. It still can be a cry for help. It still can be a reaction to psychological stress or trauma and that begs the question, are shoplifting charges good? Is that actually going to teach anybody anything, or do what we need to do instead is teach people better coping skills for how they can deal with their pain, or do we need to be looking at, if it's a child, do we need to be looking at what is going on in the home? Is there trauma? Is there abuse? Is there toxic stress on this child? Should we be checking off all of those boxes before we make the decision whether or not somebody's going to be charged with shoplifting? Alyssa Scolari [17:52]: I don't know. I don't have the answer. I know this is kind of tying into criminal justice reform, but here's the thing, even if you never got caught, that still doesn't mean that your shoplifting doesn't have a psychological impact or isn't rooted in psychological-based issues. It doesn't mean that you're not numbing out just because you've never been caught. If you have had a history of stealing or if you currently have a history of stealing, a lot of times people feel shame about it. And if you feel shame about it, this episode is really to help you put that shame aside and try to look at it from a different lens. Is it that you are a bad kid? Is it that you are a bad person or are you a person who is hurting and is coping by stealing? Alyssa Scolari [18:57]: Ultimately, I don't know the answer. That's something that you can only find within yourself, but I will say this, I have yet to meet a person, child or adult, who steals truly because they just love it as a sport. I have yet to meet somebody like that. Now, my sample size is biased because I see people that come to me for therapy so I'm sure people like that out there exist. In fact, I'm positive people out there like that exist, but those kind of people I don't think are listening to this podcast. So if you are listening to this podcast and you have a history of stealing, I think it begs the question, is there any kind of compassion that you can give yourself? And if you're still actively in your shoplifting or stealing phase, ask yourself what you need. What void is stealing trying to fill for you and how can you fill that void in a safer way? Alyssa Scolari [20:09]: I know for me, I never learned to fill the void, but I was lucky enough that shoplifting didn't become my addiction. Food, eating disorders became my vice, so I ended up filling that void in another way, but a dangerous way as well, but one that was more dangerous to me. So be careful not to fill, not to replace one vice with another vice. What do you need that is going to be healthy for you and the environment around you? I love you. I hope you have a good week and I will be holding you in the light. Alyssa Scolari [20:58]: Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support. [singing]

Borderline Personality Disorder, or BPD, is arguably the most misunderstood and widely stigmatized mental health disorder. Alyssa is here this week to set the record straight on what this disorder looks like, how it is related to trauma, and why we need to fight the stigma.  Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma You can also check out Alyssa at www.alyssascolari.com Transcripts: Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari. Alyssa Scolari [00:32]: Welcome back, settle in because we have another good episode for you today. I am trying to get settled in as well, trying to get ready to chat with you all about borderline personality disorder, but I hope that everybody is enjoying their summer. I feel like we're at that point in the summer where everything just flies by and make the most of it because I'm already hearing talk about fantasy football and I'm like, "Oh God already, please no." Now summer's not my favorite season by any stretch. I don't love the heat, but I'm also just not quite ready to talk about fall football and all things pumpkin spice flavored. I'm just not, I'm not ready for that at all. So just hold on to every second because summer is flying. Alyssa Scolari [01:34]: I feel like I've been working so much this summer and it's really just on a lot of like future things. I have a really exciting project that I am going to announce in just a few short weeks that we'll be launching in the fall. And then I've just been working on my website stuff and client stuff, and kind of mapping out the future of where I want my practice to go on the podcast. So I feel like it's just been a summer where I've been so busy, and when I'm not busy with work, I have been really busy with EMDR. As many of you know, I'm going through that process. And I know I've said in the past that it has been kicking my butt, but man, I mean it more than ever, I feel like I'm now really in the depths of it, of just going through my memories chronologically and reprocessing them. Alyssa Scolari [02:32]: And I think particularly the last week or so has been really, really difficult. My brain is, and this is what is to be expected, honestly, this just means that I'm doing it right. I mean, if you can do EMDR, right. But this is really what's been happening it feels like my brain is on fire and I'm hypersensitive to everything. So even more so than I was before, every noise, every sound, I'm almost overly reading people's emotions and their facial responses. And this is something that I used to do when I was little because I had a person in my life who was really hot and cold. I never knew what version of them that I was going to get. And so I find that I'm like that even more right now, as I'm reprocessing everything, Alyssa Scolari [03:28]: I'm looking at people like, who are you today? Are you safe today? Are you going to hurt me today? And none of that is even about the present, right? Because I don't have people in my life that are going to hurt me. So I'm really just kind of, not I'm disassociated, or maybe emotional flashbacks. And I'm also having a lot of new memories surface. In the car yesterday we were driving, something was said. And of course, what was said was harmless, but whatever, it did trigger something in me. And then I started having new memories and the memories were auditory. So I could hear things. And it was one of those just really bad PTSD episodes/attacks is what it feels like, where I'm just like, I almost want to put my hands over my ears to stop what I hear, but that's not going to work because the flashbacks are just, it's my brain. Alyssa Scolari [04:33]: And I found myself in EMDR this week while I was reprocessing a memory feeling so much dread because there's so much, I don't remember, but I know is in there. And I found myself almost feeling like, "Oh, this is a movie I don't want to watch." Almost like I was watching a horror movie. I hate horror movies and I will cover my eyes because I'm very scared of them. I have enough anxiety. I don't need a movie to give me more anxiety. So I will always put my hands over my face when I'm watching a horror movie. And this is what that felt like I wanted to just stop and I didn't want to see the rest of the movie. Alyssa Scolari [05:24]: But the movie is reality and there was just so much grief that came with it. And there was a lot of self-compassion, which I think is pretty new for me. I'm not used to having a lot of compassion. I'm used to intellectualizing things and I'm used to finding ways where I was at fault for what happened, but I'm just really developing a lot of compassion for myself. And it's been a beautiful, painful, agonizing thing. And it's also been exhausting. Alyssa Scolari [06:05]: So I'm definitely a little withdrawn. I'm a little isolated and it's really to protect myself. I don't even think it's a bad thing. I think that it's probably best right now if I don't have a ton of contact because I'm already so depleted from this process. So it's taking me a while to respond to people. And really all I want to do is read books because I get to escape that way and play really nontriggering video games and cook good food and do some really slow yoga. Alyssa Scolari [06:45]: That is kind of where I'm at. I'm at how can I do the bare minimum? And I think that's okay. I'm okay with that. I'm okay. I'm okay with that. You know, I say maybe I'm trying to convince myself I'm okay with it because I'm one of those over-functioners, so it is a little bit hard for me to be still in my grief, but I'm doing my best to just let it wash over me. And it is, and it's so random, right? Alyssa Scolari [07:16]: Sitting in the car yesterday, this was a completely separate incident. We're in the car. My husband runs into the store to grab something. I stay in the car and when he comes back in five minutes, I'm sobbing. I am hysterically crying and shaking. And he was like, "What is wrong?" And it was just like I got hit with this wave of grief. Alyssa Scolari [07:39]: And I have to say, I'm really proud of myself because I'm not running from it anymore. And normally I would run from it. I would pick up my phone and maybe go on social media to try to distract from feelings or turn on the radio. And, and I did for a second, I turned on the radio when I felt all those feelings creeping in. And I was like, "Nah, let me listen to music. I don't want to feel this." And then I was just like, "Alyssa, you don't have to run from this. It's not going to kill you." I actually said that out loud to myself and I just let the tears come and I sobbed and it moved through me and then I was able to manage the rest of the day. Alyssa Scolari [08:27]: So I'm hanging in there. This is, I think, one of the best things I've ever done for myself, as hard as it is I know it's exactly where I need to be right now. So I am so proud of myself for all of the work that I am doing. I'm just so proud. I'm really proud that's all I can say. I've worked so hard and it's going to make me a happier human being and it's going to make me an even better therapist and yeah, yeah. That's where I'm at. So that being said, we will close up the corner on my life updates and now let's just dive into what we're talking about today because we're talking about borderline personality disorder. Alyssa Scolari [09:16]: It's also often referred to as BPD, and maybe you have been diagnosed with this and if you haven't been diagnosed with it, then I'm sure you've heard of it because it's one of, well, I think it's the most highly stigmatized of the mental health disorders in existence to the point where a lot of therapists refuse to work with somebody if they even utter the words BPD or the acronym BPD or the words borderline personality disorder, not every therapist, but a lot of therapists. Alyssa Scolari [09:51]: And I can even recall so much stigmatization when I was learning about it, even as a grad school student. So the stigma is quite literally in the system, right? I was taught the stigma. I was taught to believe the stigma when I was a grad school student. And, I definitely had, again, not every professor. I had amazing professors where I went to school, but I did have one professor who I specifically remember was like, "You are going to really have a hard time ever having successful treatment with somebody who has this kind of disorder." And quite honestly, I know now that is not true. And I wish I could go back and tell that professor that they were just projecting their own frustrations. Perhaps they've been diagnosed with this disorder, or perhaps they worked with people in their practice who were diagnosed with this disorder and didn't have a good outcome, but I will continue to talk about that a little bit. Alyssa Scolari [10:53]: But first, you might notice the term personality disorder, right? And it's like, "What does that mean?" Because it's much more clear what anxiety disorders and depressive disorders are, but what does it mean to have a personality disorder? Basically, there are personality disorders, and then there's everything else. That's kind of how it's separated in the DSM, which is the book that has all of the mental health diagnoses. Alyssa Scolari [11:23]: What makes a personality disorder different is that this is thought to be like a lifelong long-term pattern of behaviors that cause distress and dysfunction. This person's behaviors deviate outside of the cultural norm and it's typically something that starts either in adolescence or very early adulthood. And it's kind of thought that personality disorders are much more difficult to treat because these patterns of behavior are much more inflexible. It's just deeply rooted in who somebody is. Alyssa Scolari [12:06]: So that is what kind of separates personality disorders versus mood disorders, anxiety disorders, what have you. Now borderline personality disorders specifically, because there are a few, right? Borderline's not the only one there's, narcissistic personality disorder, there's an obsessive-compulsive person of personality disorder, and OCD, basically obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, which this is just an interesting little fact is having OCD but not seeing a problem with the OCD and therefore not wanting to change. That is one of the biggest differences between somebody who has obsessive-compulsive personality disorder versus obsessive-compulsive disorder. So I find that very interesting and I don't know if I buy into that totally because I have people who technically meet the criteria for OCD or for obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, right? They have OCD tendencies but they don't really see a problem and don't want to fix it, but it's not really causing a whole lot of distress. Alyssa Scolari [13:23]: I don't know. I don't know. That's a topic for another time. We'll talk about it later. I have to give it some more thought, but going back to BPD. So BPD is basically characterized by having to meet at least five of the following requirements. So first we have chronic feelings of emptiness, and then there's emotional instability in the way that you react to regular day-to-day events, maybe having major episodes of sadness or rage or severe anxiety. Next is frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. So you spend so much of your time trying to avoid feeling any feelings of possible abandonment, a disturbance in your identity or an unstable sense of self or an unstable self-image. Alyssa Scolari [14:26]: There's impulsive behavior in at least two areas that could be self-damaging. So this can include substance abuse, driving recklessly, binge eating, and having risky sex. I'm not, not just having sex, but, risky sex, maybe sex with multiple partners or having sex a lot with no protection. Spending lots of money. So if you're just living paycheck to paycheck, or maybe you're gathering a bunch of credit card debt, those kinds of impulsive behaviors. Alyssa Scolari [15:02]: Intense anger, anger that is so intense that it doesn't necessarily match the situation at hand or issues with controlling your anger, explosive anger, getting into fights a lot, whether physical or verbal. Having unstable interpersonal relationships. So unstable relationships with the people in your life. Difficulty keeping friendships. Difficulty with family members, difficulty with maintaining healthy relationships. Suicidal behavior, suicidal gestures, self-harming, threats, threats of suicide, and usually severe dissociative symptoms. So dissociation is a form of disconnection. It's a form of almost checking out mentally so that you don't have to be present. Alyssa Scolari [16:02]: Dissociation is typically a trauma response. And I know we talked about this a few episodes ago, how sometimes dissociation can be a healthy thing in very moderate amounts, but this is more like dissociative symptoms as a reaction to trauma, or as a reaction to something, some kind of intense situation. Alyssa Scolari [16:26]: Another thing that I think ties into all of that is folks who have borderline personality disorder will often engage in something called splitting. And basically what that means is you see the world in a very black and white manner. So it's things are kind of all or nothing. People are either amazing or they're absolutely horrible devils. An experience you had was either the best thing you've ever experienced in your entire life, or it was so bad it was absolutely the worst ever. And so there's really just no middle ground for people who experience borderline personality disorder. Alyssa Scolari [17:06]: So all of those symptoms that I just read off to you, right? You have to meet five of them in order to meet the criteria to be diagnosed with this disorder. Now, if you meet these criteria for two weeks, and then you no longer meet this criteria, you don't have borderline personality disorder. This is a pattern of behavior that stretches over a long period of time, if not lifelong. So in fact, borderline personality disorder and all of the personality disorders, you typically can't get diagnosed with one of them until you're about 18 years old because your personality is still developing. I kind of think that's a little bit of bullshit and I think that it should be at least 25 years old until you're diagnosed with a personality disorder because our brains haven't even fully developed until that age. So when you're diagnosing somebody at 18 years old with a personality disorder, know their brains aren't even fully developed. Alyssa Scolari [18:15]: So how do you know? How, how do you know, right? The criteria for BPD is, one of them is, impulsivity. Well, guess what? At 18 years old, your prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed and your prefrontal cortex is what governs impulsivity. It's what helps stop impulsivity. So I sort of feel like it's stupid, but what do I know? I'm just a low old therapist over here. But here is where I start to get really worked up about borderline personality disorder and it is because of the stigma. Alyssa Scolari [18:52]: You can Google this any day of the week and you will find several articles about how borderline personality disorder is one of the most stigmatized, misunderstood, mental health disorders in the profession. And it isn't just misunderstood among doctors and regular society. It is misunderstood by therapists and it is a diagnosis that is handed to people, very haphazardly by therapists and professionals who truly don't know much about this disorder at all. Alyssa Scolari [19:35]: And it infuriates me. And this has been my experience with BPD. So I'll talk a little bit about the stigma, just that I've experienced through my own journey of health. Alyssa Scolari [19:47]: So when I first started out in an eating disorder treatment center, I met with a psychiatrist. I met with him probably for 20 minutes, and it was my first time ever meeting with a psychiatrist. And he asked me a few things. And then he looked at me, he didn't make eye contact with me the entire time we were talking. And then at the end, he looked at me and he went, "You have borderline personality disorder and you need to be on this, this, and this medication. And do you have any questions?" Now I had no clue what he was talking about. I had loosely heard of the term, but I don't even think I was in grad school yet, or maybe I had just started grad school. So I really didn't know much at all. Alyssa Scolari [20:44]: So I kind of was labeled that. He didn't know me. He had no clue about my history of trauma. He was just like, "Oh, okay. This is what you have." And I didn't know then the stigma of that disorder. And honestly, I had just kind of forgotten about it. I hated where I went to treatment. So I just got through it. I kind of wrote the whole place off. Looking back at that now it infuriates me that somebody could talk to you for 20 minutes and give you a personality disorder. You have no clue what that person's patterns are, their behaviors. How could you diagnose somebody with that after 20 minutes? Alyssa Scolari [21:37]: But I do remember that there was one instance where I was with one of the employees who worked at this place and this person was talking about borderline personality disorder and this person said, very matter of fact, "There's no treatment for it. You can't get better. All you can really do is manage it. You'll have this forever. And it's really hard to ever have any kind of good relationships with this disorder." And she's just said it very flat. And so I remember thinking like, "Oh my God, if I really do have this, I'm going to be alone forever. I'm never going to be in a marriage. I'm never going to have friends. Holy crap, this is awful." And I kind of almost, not made it a self-fulfilling prophecy, because that didn't really happen for me. I was able to sort of see over time that was such a horrible thing and a very hurtful thing that she said, but it really brought me down. And it really made me question my future for a while. Alyssa Scolari [22:54]: So moving on, then eventually I graduate from treatment and I find a regular outpatient therapist and I am going to see her and I like her, and she's cool. And about a few months in, this therapist, I noticed, starts talking more about herself than me. And she talks about the other people that she sees and doesn't give me specifics but tells me way more than is actually appropriate. And she works with sex offenders and she's talking to me about them and how a lot of people can't do the work that she does. And then she goes, "But at least I don't have to work with the borderlines because as you'll see in grad school, they're a nightmare." And I was horrified that a therapist could say that about humans, absolutely horrified. First of all, the borderlines, like so nasty, just that language. It was awful. Alyssa Scolari [24:10]: So eventually I fell away from that therapist and I found myself with another therapist and this therapist and I had spoken extensively about the diagnosis of BPD. And this therapist had sort of like told me, "Yeah, I really don't see that in you. You really don't have any of that." And I was kind of like relieved because there was so much stigma that was surrounding this diagnosis, that it almost became this game of how can I not have this disorder as opposed to how can I fix my trauma? And so this therapist was like, "Yeah, you really don't have that." And one day I went in for my appointment and the person who was ahead of me, there was like a little waiting room, and the person who was ahead of me opened up the door, stormed out and slammed the door. Alyssa Scolari [25:17]: And my therapist at the time came out and pointed at that person and went, now that is a borderline, a borderline, first of all, like the level of inappropriateness, it makes my skin crawl. And then we kind of talked about it a little bit. And she was talking about how people who have borderline personality disorder are super treatment-resistant and they always fail in therapy. And they always drop out because they can't respect anybody's boundaries. And they're highly manipulative. And I really looked up to this therapist. So I'm just like, "Oh, oh, okay, I guess that's how people are then." So you can kind of see here this pattern, even from my own experiences, of hearing people talk about borderline, like they're the worst people on the face of the planet. First of all, they're people with borderline personality disorder, they're not borderlines. Alyssa Scolari [26:20]: And for people to talk about them like, "Oh, they never do well in treatment." It's such bullshit. And over time I had new therapists who really helped me see folks who have borderline personality disorder in a totally different light, right? I had different therapists. I had a supervisor, all of whom have been fantastic and who have truly helped me understand that this diagnosis is not something to be afraid of. Alyssa Scolari [26:56]: There are therapists that will outright reject people who have that diagnosis. Therapists will still talk about people with that diagnosis saying that they're impossible to treat. They are not impossible to treat. And as I've learned, I actually really enjoy working with people who have borderline personality disorder. People who have BPD are not fucking evil. And if you've ever been made to feel like you are, I am so sorry. And I am here to tell you that is fucked up and that is not about you. That is about your therapist's own projections of their own issues. If it was your therapist who said that, or who made you feel like that? Alyssa Scolari [27:43]: If you go back and you look at the diagnosis, the symptoms for BPD, so many of them, in fact, all of them can also be symptoms of complex trauma, hello. People who have BPD do not have issues with their brain. They have been fucking horribly traumatized. How can you expect somebody, right people, therapists love to say, "Ah, people with BPG they don't know any boundaries and they'll, they'll manipulate you all day." How could you expect somebody to know what boundaries look like if their whole childhood was full of their boundaries, being violated. If somebody comes into therapy and their whole lives, they've had to use manipulation as a tactic to get their needs met. Why would you think for two seconds that they won't try to manipulate you? Alyssa Scolari [28:49]: Manipulation in itself is not evil and we need to stop treating it like it is. People come to therapy with the same patterns and behaviors that they learned from their trauma. And if you want to call it a personality disorder, go right ahead. But I, for one, just feel like using that, almost just as "Hey, you're fucked up." Now don't get me wrong. For some people having this diagnosis is hugely validating. And for those folks, I'm like, "Yes, do it." If it's validating, then it's validating. And that's great. But for people who have battled with being diagnosed with this disorder over and over again and stigmatized as a result of it, if it doesn't feel like it fits you, it's okay to let that go. You don't have to say, "Oh, I have BPD, Oh I have BPD. This is going to be the rest of my life. I'm going to struggle for the rest of my life." No, you're fucking not. No, you're fucking not. Alyssa Scolari [29:55]: It infuriates me, as you can tell, because I have worked with people with BPD and I have watched them recover to the point where they don't meet the criteria for that disorder anymore. BPD is a result so often of complex trauma. And if we start treating the trauma, right, there's a treatment for borderline personality disorder. It's called DBT or Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. And it's really something that was created for people with borderline personality disorder. And it's great. It teaches so many wonderful skills. If we use that and we treat the trauma that is underneath it, I have seen people that no longer meet the criteria for that diagnosis. And more importantly, I have seen people that are successful and live happy and healthy lives, and they can be self-harm free and they no longer feel suicidal. And they are in functioning relationships. It doesn't mean all their problems have gone away. Absolutely not, but it can happen. Alyssa Scolari [31:08]: There is so much hope if you have BPD. And again, if you've ever been made to feel like your mental health is hopeless because of this diagnosis. I'm so sorry. And that is part of why I wanted to talk about this today is because I wanted to fight the stigma because this stigma, I've experienced the stigma firsthand, I've been thrown out that diagnosis. And what I know now about myself is no, I don't have BPD. I have trauma. I have a crap load of complex trauma that I have been working through. And I have gotten to a place where it's just like, yeah, no. For me, that diagnosis felt more harmful than validating and I think that's because I'm so acutely aware of the stigma. Alyssa Scolari [32:04]: Now, again, if this is something that feels good for you, if it helps you to have this diagnosis, please don't let me talk you out of that. Because despite the stigma that I'm talking about for every bad therapist out there, there are a million great therapists who would never stigmatize people. And there are a million people out there who have this diagnosis and have found it super validating and helpful. Alyssa Scolari [32:34]: But I've also talked with plenty of people who have had this diagnosis used against them, haphazardly given to them. I've had 10-year-olds that have come to me and told me that previous therapists have given them a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder. Their parents come to me in disarray, frantic about what this is going to mean for the future of their child. And it's just not like that. There is hope. There is hope. No matter how you feel about the diagnosis, there is, there is hope. And that's my message today. You have hope. I believe in you. I know you can do it. I love you. And I am holding you in the light. Alyssa Scolari [33:19]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Alyssa Scolari [33:36]: Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again. That's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

Everyone's journey to heal looks a little bit different, but it is important to have a general knowledge of what to expect as well as the beauty that comes from putting in the hard work. Alyssa pulls from both her experience as a trauma therapist and her personal experience with recovering from an eating disorder and complex PTSD to discuss patterns she has noticed as we move along in our healing journeys. Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma You can also check out Alyssa at www.alyssascolari.com   Transcript:   Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey friends. What's up? Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and we are going to get right into it today. So, this episode topic was actually Dave's idea. So if you don't like it, blame Dave. No, I'm kidding. But seriously, it was his idea, and it's something that I have been wanting to do for a while. And it's like, I guess I struggled with it because I feel like everybody's healing journey is different. Alyssa Scolari [01:04]: With that being said, I think through my experience as a therapist and through my own healing journeys and through having friends, and other colleagues in the field who have gone through their own healing journeys, I notice very similar patterns throughout the journey, and I wanted to talk about those today. Right? Because I think that a lot of people assume when they sign up for ... not when they sign up, but if you decide that you want to start healing, whether it's from your eating disorder or trauma or addiction, right, I think that people have this idea that when they start therapy, and this is me assuming that this is like you going to a standard once a week therapist. Right? I think people assume that when you start therapy, it only can get better from the moment you start. Alyssa Scolari [02:05]: Like once you make that decision to begin your healing process, a lot of people have this idea that it's like, "Well, things are only going to get better." And unfortunately not to burst anybody's bubble, I don't see that it works like that. It certainly didn't work like that for me. And for a lot of folks that I know, and that I have worked with who have complex trauma, that definitely has not been the case. Now, if somebody is coming in with standard PTSD, right, there's been a singular incident in which they are struggling. Yes, that certainly can be the case once you start therapy, things can get better. But what I'm talking about here is healing from complex trauma. And that process does not look like, "Oh, I started therapy and now I feel so much better." It is much, much different. Right? Alyssa Scolari [03:07]: And because a lot of people will ask us, "Well, you've been in therapy for three months, don't you feel better?" And I think those of us that perhaps live with people who don't understand complex trauma or who don't get how therapy works, we have people say things to us like, I know my mom used to say this to me, not all the time, but every once in a while, she'd be like, "Do you feel like your therapist is helping at all?" And it's just like, "I don't know how to answer that because it's not that my therapist wasn't helping, it's just that there's so much that it's hard to know, three months into therapy, if anything is helping." And that's just not what people expect. People look at it very similar to maybe going to a doctor. Right? "Well, you've been seeing this doctor for three weeks, so why hasn't your arthritis flare gone down or whatever the heck it may be?" Alyssa Scolari [04:08]: So I'm here to get pretty real and raw with you about what the healing journey actually looks like. And also just what it has looked like for me and where I'm at right now. I believe that healing is lifelong. And with that said, though, I don't believe that your suffering is lifelong. I think there is certainly happiness to be found, even if you aren't a 100% healed, because honestly, can any of us be a 100% healed? I mean, just look at what's going on in the world. Alyssa Scolari [04:43]: I think all of us have experienced collective trauma from the mass shootings, our children being gunned down, rights being taken away. Like how can we live through all this stuff? Right? A global pandemic and then say, "Oh, I'm completely healed." That's the thing about trauma, is that it doesn't go away. It's not like once we've been traumatized once, well, that's it, and we never ever experience any trauma. We will experience it down the road. And that will probably further our healing in some way. Alyssa Scolari [05:23]: Now, again, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that you have to continue to be traumatized in order to heal. But what I'm saying is life is fucking hard. And so, you can't get to a place where you're 40 and you're like, "Oh, I've completely healed." And expect that nothing traumatizing or triggering is going to affect you for the rest of your life. I just don't think that's realistic. So, many people when they come to me and this is myself included, they don't usually walk in the office. Again, this was the case for me. I didn't walk into my therapist's office saying I have complex trauma and I need help with this. Hey, some people do do that, and that's amazing. Alyssa Scolari [06:16]: But typically, we don't even realize we have complex trauma. And instead what we think we want help with is whatever vice we have turned to to be able to cope with what we're not dealing with, with what we're not feeling, our eating disorder serves as a numbing tool. Your addiction serves as a numbing tool, whatever it may be, even I believe this, right, anxiety disorders, like OCD serves as a numbing tool. Many therapists agree with me, a lot of people, I think treat OCD as just this singular disorder that's like, you have to combat the obsessions. Right? You have to just not give in. And once you do that, then your OCD will go away. Alyssa Scolari [07:13]: I don't necessarily believe that to be true. I actually just took a training, where this woman said that, she works with OCD and she basically was like, "The only treatment for this is having people not give in to their obsessions." And yes, that is super important, but I think a lot of OCD specialists are going to say that, that need for control with OCD is almost always rooted in some kind of trauma. So, I actually don't know what the research is on that, and I will look into it, but in all of the work that I've done and just talking to other OCD specialists, that's what people would agree on. Alyssa Scolari [07:59]: So even so many disorders can be a reaction, not just eating disorders and addiction, but OCD, or perhaps social anxiety disorder, agoraphobia, all of these things can likely, not always, be linked to some type of trauma. So most people, when they go into therapy, they are looking to treat the symptom of their trauma, and that symptom is another disorder. For me, it was an eating disorder. I struggled with an eating disorder, I mean, my whole life. I started counting points probably as early as eight years old, and I just struggled my entire life with ... Alyssa Scolari [08:50]: I was overweight and everybody in my family was on Weight Watchers, and everybody used to tell me that our family had a weight problem and that we needed to be dieters our whole lives. So I just thought from very early on that I needed to restrict my food intake. And then as I was older, that led to binge eating. So I would sneak food. I have this one distinct memory. I don't think I've talked about this on this podcast. I've talked about it when I was a guest on Guy Macpherson's The Trauma Therapist, but this specific memory I was really young. I can't remember how old, but I remember I took a stick of butter from the fridge and I went and hid in the garage, and I was just eating a stick of butter. Alyssa Scolari [09:43]: So, that's where all of my restriction led me as just a little kid. And so, basically I spent 20 years up a hundred pounds down, a hundred pounds every new diet. And when I would gain weight, people really ignored me. I felt super ignored and unseen, but as soon as I lost weight, everybody praised me. I was well known in my town for being this huge success story. People wanted to know how I did it, where I got the willpower from. I was fucking dying, and I wish I could go back to all those people now and tell them I was fucking dying. Alyssa Scolari [10:30]: Of course, I can't do that, but when I went into therapy, that is what I wanted help with. I wanted help on how to let go of my eating disorder. Because at that point I was binging almost daily, and I just couldn't stop myself. I felt like I had no control, and I would just pray day after day. Like, "Please let me get rid of this eating disorder." So that's how I started out. I want to get rid of this eating disorder. And over time my eating disorder started to go away. I remember sitting in my therapist's office and I would say to her like, "Why can't this eating disorder just be gone?" And she would be like, "Because it's not about the food." Alyssa Scolari [11:21]: And I would get so mad at her because I would be like, "Are you fucking dumb? Yes, it is about the food, stop fucking telling me it's not about the food." And as much as I hate to admit this, she was absolutely right. It was not about the food for me. It was about trying to numb out what I was feeling. And how I came to learn this is because I started to look at what was happening during those moments I was binge eating, and a lot of times it would be after something upsetting happened. Maybe I got yelled at by my boss, or I had a fight with my mom or things were really bad at home. And I would be sitting at the drive through, in some kind of fast food restaurant eating until I could not breathe. Alyssa Scolari [12:16]: That is how I started to learn, "Oh, okay. I don't think the problem is that I don't have willpower, I think the problem is I'm really trying to numb out." For me it was anger. I am a chronic people pleaser. Well, I'm a recovered people pleaser, but I was a people pleaser back then. And so when I had bad feelings, it was never safe for me to show them. So I stuffed my feelings down with food. At the same time, I had internalized so much fat phobia and diet culture that I hated eating. So, I would do my best then to restrict and starve, but then when I starved, it worked out for me because all of my hunger cues shut off and I couldn't feel anything. I couldn't feel anything in my body. Alyssa Scolari [13:16]: So I definitely couldn't feel anger or rage or depression or sadness. So I started to learn in that process that my eating disorder was deeply tied to my emotions. And that is the case for so many people, they come in with whatever disorder it is they might be struggling with. And then they start to unpack it and they start to realize the emotional ties between their disorder, their vice and their emotions. They realize that connection. Now I wish I could say that it got better from here, because it sounds great. You're like, "Oh, wonderful. I realized I made this connection. Well, now I can just heal." But it actually doesn't work like that in my experience, this is where things get really hard. Alyssa Scolari [14:10]: In terms of a timeline, it's really hard to give a timeline, because everybody is so different. For me, it happened probably a year into therapy. For the people that I work with, it usually takes a couple of months. So it's really different for everybody, and I can't give a timeline, unfortunately, but it does start getting harder because then what happens is, people start to let go of their defenses or their vices. Alyssa Scolari [14:48]: And I started to let go of my eating disorder. I started to become more in tune for the first time in probably 20 years, I started to become more in tune with my emotions. And now this is also what happens with so many of the people that I work with. They start to become more in tune with their feelings, and it feels like the pits of hell. And I don't even think that is an exaggeration. If you have been through it, you understand, because you're letting go of your coping mechanism. Alyssa Scolari [15:24]: And so now all that's there are the feelings that you have been running from for however long. And so it doesn't feel like, "Oh, yay. I'm in touch with my feelings again." It feels like, "Oh my God, these emotions are going to kill me." And I think that that's actually understandable because your brain is just trying to keep you alive. Your brain is a beautiful, wonderful thing. Kiss your brain, that is what my husband's old boss always used to say, "Kiss your brain, kiss your brain." And my husband now says it to me all the time. If I'm having a really bad day and I'm like, "Ah, I wish I didn't have a traumatized brain." He'll be like, "You kiss your brain." Alyssa Scolari [16:02]: Because my brain has worked so hard to keep me alive, and so has yours. It is a beautiful thing that your brain does where it blocks out feelings because those feelings are so intense that we feel like they're going to kill us. Now, they're not going to, especially if you are in a place where you are surrounded with support and safety. Right? If you have a therapist who is well versed in trauma, then you are okay, as long as you have a good connection with this therapist. Alyssa Scolari [16:32]: I had a therapist who was well versed in trauma, and it was a fucking nightmare. That was before, I now have two therapists, as many of you know, because I'm doing EMDR right now. And both of my therapists are the bomb. So anyway, this is when things get really difficult. You might find yourself really depressed, you might find yourself crying all the time, you might find yourself fully in touch with a rage that feels so intense. It feels like you might lose your mind. This is where coping skills are so effective. Alyssa Scolari [17:12]: I hate when therapists just talk about coping skills being the be all end all therapy, learn some coping skills. Because if you are not allowing yourself to feel your feelings and truly feel them, then you are honestly not going to really need those coping skills, because you're never going to let go of your eating disorder or your addiction. Right? Coping skills when it comes to complex trauma recovery are crucial when you let go of your other disorders or your other vices and become fully in touch with your emotions. Because at this point, what you're doing is you've shifted from eating disorder recovery or addiction and you have now shifted into trauma work. You are now taking a look at all of the people in your life and the patterns and the behaviors that have led up to this point. And it can feel so overwhelming. Alyssa Scolari [18:22]: I know we've talked about this before. Some people don't even remember until they start doing the trauma work. And then they have all of these new memories that come to the surface and they learn things that they weren't even sure really happened, maybe they might have thought happened, but they always told themselves, "No, there's no way that happened." It's learning about your past and seeing it in a much different light. And it is absolutely terrifying and heartbreaking and infuriating, and sometimes it feels like there's nothing you can do, but sit back and watch the last, I don't know, let's say 30 years of your life unfolds in a way you've never seen it unfold before. Alyssa Scolari [19:13]: And I say this not because I want to deter you from making the decision to heal, it is the best decision ever. I say this because I want there to be realistic expectations about what it is like. In fact, when people start to get fully in touch with their trauma and the feelings behind it, oftentimes those defenses or those vices or those other disorders will come back tenfold, because your brain is just doing what it knows how to do best, which is protect you. So my brain, right, let's say like my eating disorder and my OCD, because those are two of my vices, that is what always comes back to the surface. Through EMDR right now, I am processing memories. Alyssa Scolari [20:05]: I've talked about EMDR in previous episodes, it's been awesome so far. I'm still very new at it. So, I will talk more about it. But when I am getting in touch with a lot of these little childhood memories, I will notice that my OCD will spike through the roof. Like last night I was having a literal knock on wood. If you've seen the movie, Encanto, and you've seen Bruno is his name, and you've seen like he will knock on wood at different parts of the movie. That can be a part of OCD, and that certainly is for me, I have to knock on wood when I have a thought. And like last night I was knocking on wood because I kept having all of these thoughts. And I was like, "Man, this is getting bad." Alyssa Scolari [20:59]: My OCD popped back up because I was processing a really painful childhood memory, and my brain was like, "What are you doing? We don't think of this stuff. We don't feel these feelings. I'm going to need you to stop, and I'm going to distract you from these feelings with this OCD." And for people with eating disorders, it's the same thing. Once people start to get fully in touch with their trauma and the pain that comes with that, I often see them they'll come into my office and they'll be like, "I've been thinking about stepping on the scale again, or I've been thinking about starting a new diet, or I need to get myself to the gym more often." And it's all distraction. It's all distraction to help you really manage or avoid the pain that you're feeling about the other stuff that is going on. Alyssa Scolari [21:58]: So, it gets worse before it gets better, because this is the point in your healing journey, where you no longer can avoid knowing about your past and maybe some family stuff, but you also are just afraid to move forward. And it can be a really sticky time for folks. It was a really sticky time for me. And unfortunately, when I was at this place, I didn't have a therapist who was safe, and this therapist was pushing me in ways that I should have never been pushed. And I almost lost my life in the process quite literally. Alyssa Scolari [22:38]: So, I can't emphasize enough the importance of being with somebody that you truly feel safe with and somebody who isn't going to push you, is going to meet you exactly where you're at. Unless of course, you're engaging in behaviors that could end your life, then yeah, your therapist is going to need to push you. But when I say push, I mean, your therapist should not be pushing you to talk about memories or family stuff. If you ever have a therapist that says, "You got to talk about this stuff in order to feel better." No, you do not. If your therapist says that, get up and walk right the fuck out. Because that is what was told to me and forcing myself to speak about things prematurely, literally almost took my life away. Alyssa Scolari [23:25]: So, just a little caveat there, but yeah, this is when it gets difficult. This is when it gets really, really hard, but you can get through it because this is when you learn, A, coping skills, but B, how to be your own best friend advocate and parent. A lot of us with complex trauma, we look back on our childhoods and we are devastated because we see that there was nobody there for us. But what we do through this next part of the healing process is we learn how to be there for ourselves. We learn how to be the hero we always needed. So this part, isn't all doom and gloom, yet it's really hard, but we learn how to save ourselves. And that is the most empowering thing in the whole world. Alyssa Scolari [24:30]: Over time, your grief shifts, it transforms. At first this grief feels all consuming and it feels like it's going to suck you up into a black hole of despair. I can promise you, it does not stay that way. As long as you don't fight it, you will move through it. I made the mistake of fighting it time and time and time again, for years, I have fought my grief. I've run from my grief and from the feelings of abandonment. And the more I ran, the more my body acted out. Right? If it wasn't my eating disorder, it was my endometriosis. It was an autoimmune disease. I was just holding all of this stuff in my body, because I was too afraid to feel it. Alyssa Scolari [25:23]: And then I made the decision that enough is enough, and that I have to move forward and I have taken my pain and I have shifted it from this big black hole of despair to something that I can actually do something with, in the form of being able to help other people, in the form of being a voice for the voiceless, being an advocate, being an ally, I have taken my pain and I have used it to help others, but I have also taken my pain and I have used it to make my own family. And what I mean by that is like, I have taken what I have been through and I have become better because of it. I have decided that I am going to give myself the life now that I always deserved. Alyssa Scolari [26:23]: I am only going to have people in my life who I can communicate appropriate with. I will not engage with people who abuse me. I will create safety. I will have a family of my own, and I will raise my child so that she or he, or they feels so safe and never once questions if I love them, if I believe in them. And I'm not saying you have to go on and have children in order to heal, because my healing has come and I don't have children, it's come because I have cultivated a space of safety. I wake up every day and I look at my life and I think, "God damn Alyssa, look at how far you've come." Alyssa Scolari [27:09]: From feeling like the pain was so bad that I didn't want to live anymore, from six years ago when my husband and I met, I had an eating disorder. I was so sick with anorexia that when he would cook for me, I would sob because I didn't know how much salt he put in the food. I would induce, vomiting all the time. I was an over exerciser, and I look at my life today and I think, "Damn, I don't worry about that anymore." I wake up, I enjoy breakfast. I have coffee. When he cooks for me, it's a great day. I go out to eat and I don't panic. I know that he is safe. I know that I am in a safe home. I have surrounded myself with everything that I love that makes me happy. I have learned how to be my own best friend and my own parent. And I have a picture of little me in the mirror, in my bedroom, and I check in with her every so often. Alyssa Scolari [28:15]: "Hey, how you Dylan, are you doing okay?" And if we're not doing okay, what can I do for her? What can I do with eight year old me? That is where you get to, when you get through the darkest of the healing process. It absolutely gets worse before it gets better, but I promise you when it gets better, it gets so good. I am able to do things that I never thought I would live long enough to do. And yes, there are times when I struggle. Right now, EMDR not going to lie. I'm struggling. And I'll say just a word about that. You do not have to do EMDR in order to heal and get better. Right? I have worked with loads of people, I am not an EMDR specialist, I have worked with loads of people who have achieved healing while not doing EMDR. Alyssa Scolari [29:11]: And the reason I'm doing it is because I notice that my nervous system, despite all of my healing, is completely out of whack. And what I mean by that is this, I have come a long way in the fact that I know that I'm safe, and if something happens, I know I'm okay. I used to get really, really scared if my husband would get angry and he's not at all a rager, but he's entitled to get pissed off every once in a while. Like we all do. But because I'm so afraid of angry people, or I was so afraid of angry people, I would get really, really triggered. And my nervous system would just go through the roof. Like my heart would start racing. I would start sweating. I wouldn't be able to breathe. I would want to cry. Alyssa Scolari [30:04]: And in my brain consciously, I knew everything was fine. I would be so frustrated with myself because I would be like, "It's literally not a big deal that he's getting mad." But my body didn't understand that, my body was off to the races, I was in fight or flight mode and I could not calm down. And I know it's not good for my body, right, to constantly have my nervous system on edge, to constantly have my cortisol levels spiking. I knew it was really bad for my body. So, I wanted to do something about that, and EMDR is a really great way to just rewire the brain a little bit and get the right brain talking to the left side of the brain and make it so that I am not so hypervigilant and so reactive. Alyssa Scolari [30:53]: So that is why I have decided to further my healing journey with EMDR. Not everybody has to do that, not everybody needs it. I think it is amazing. But it's really a personal decision. So, along the way, right, there's going to be so many little caveats, and nobody's healing journey is the same, but this is a pattern that I often see with myself and with people I work with, where you come in to treat a more surface level disorder. And then as you treat that, you start to get more in touch with the trauma that's behind the disorder. And then we start the grieving process, and really start learning how to best take care of yourself. Especially given the fact that you weren't cared for, right, when you were younger, if you have complex trauma. Alyssa Scolari [31:53]: And once you're able to do that, you are frigging unstoppable because you know that at the end of the day, the safest place is you. And for so many trauma survivors, when we start therapy, we don't feel safe at all. We spend our whole lives trying to escape our bodies. But at the other end is this beautiful, beautiful concept that you are so at home in your body and you are so safe, and paradise and peace is you. Alyssa Scolari [32:33]: So, I hope that this has been helpful to at least give you a brief outline. I mean, not brief. Right? This is like 40 minutes. But to talk a little bit about the process, like what can you expect out of healing? It hurts like hell. But I mean, I can't help, but sit here and smile as I say this, because I just think of my own journey, and I think like, "Damn, I saved my own life." And as a result, I get to help so many other people, and I also get to enjoy spending time with myself. Alyssa Scolari [33:09]: I get to enjoy nurturing younger me. I get to spend the rest of my life taking care of the child in me. And I want to, because I love her, and you can do the same. So if you are in the pits of it right now, I need you to hang on, I need you to tie it, not in your rope and I need you to hang on, because if there was anything that I wish I could go back and tell myself even six years ago, it is that, it doesn't stay like this forever. And the other side is, it's almost the equivalent to seeing the world in colors that I just couldn't see before. Alyssa Scolari [33:56]: I appreciate everything so much more now, and you can too, and I want nothing but the best for all of you. Hang in, hold on, love yourself through this. You're going to make it. I know it. I love you, I am holding you in the light, and I will see you next week. Alyssa Scolari [34:20]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you, and we appreciate your support.

The last several years have given way to an onslaught of devastating and frightening tragedies in our world. When it all feels like too much, we need ways to find safety and security once more. Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma You can also check out Alyssa at www.alyssascolari.com   Transcript:   Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey friends. Alyssa Scolari [00:24]: Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host Alyssa Scolari, and we are now on episode 101, baby. I am so excited. I hope that everybody has had a great week so far. It feels like forever since I've recorded an episode, it's only been really a week and a half, but so much has happened in the world since I last recorded an episode and I originally had other plans for what I was going to talk about today. But I think with recent events, it is really important that I talk about how to cope when it feels like the world is falling apart. I feel really, really lucky because I have the most amazing people who listen to this podcast. And I have not been pressured by any of you to talk about what is going on in the United States, particularly the Roe v. Wade being overturned. Alyssa Scolari [01:36]: I know that with a lot of people who have public platforms, people who follow them or listen to them, people are demanding that others speak about it and they're judging them for not having spoken about it. And I feel really grateful that has not been the case for me. And I will say this with regards to that, just because somebody's not speaking about it on a social media platform doesn't mean that they don't have feelings about it, right? Roe v. Wade was only overturned a few weeks ago at this point, or maybe a week and a half ago at this point. I'm not even sure, but it's going to take some time for people to be able to process how they feel about it. And the overturning is very triggering for people who have... Well, it's very triggering for pretty much anyone with a uterus, but it is especially triggering for people who have a history of sexual abuse, right? Alyssa Scolari [02:47]: Our bodies have already been taken from us. We have already had somebody else have more control over our bodies than we have. So for Roe v. Wade to be overturned and for people to say that it is okay for states to completely ban abortion, it almost feels like we are being victimized all over... I mean, we are being victimized all over again, and it's very re-victimizing of our sexual abuse. So try to be mindful of that, right? If somebody's not saying something about it, that doesn't mean that they don't feel strongly about it. It doesn't mean that they're ignoring it. What that might mean is that they are so deeply triggered by it, that they just can't, right? Because especially when you put yourself out there in any kind of public platform, you are bound to have criticism and you are bound to have people who are going to say things that are hurtful, people that might disagree. Alyssa Scolari [03:50]: And while that might be okay, if you have deep traumatic ties to a certain topic, honestly, it might not be safe for you to share that publicly. So just give one another grace right now. I feel like I'm preaching to the choir. I don't even have to tell you all because you all have been absolutely amazing in not asking me to speak up about this. And so I have been able to take some time and I have been able to get to a place where I am able to publicly say, I am so not okay with what is happening in this country. And anybody who knows a shred about me can already have guessed that. I am horrified. I am triggered beyond belief, the right to abortion. It is not a right, it's not a constitutional right anymore. And it has been so hard for me to wrap my head around. Alyssa Scolari [04:58]: And it's also been very overwhelming for me as a therapist to have to go into my office, right? Because the overturning was on Friday, June 24th. And then on Monday, I had to go into the office and I had to talk to a person upon person who has deep seated feelings and is extremely triggered by the overturning. And I haven't even processed it for myself. So I have been just inundated with reactions to this and I'm handling it the best that I can, but there's just no part of me that is okay. It is so scary for so many people out there. And some people are celebrating, right? Some people are celebrating, but I think so many of us, and I know many people who listen to this podcast, are mourning. We're mourning. We are terrified about what this means. We are triggered because now we feel like we have no control over our bodies anymore. Alyssa Scolari [06:08]: It's been really, really bad. And unfortunately bad has only turned to worse, right? We thought that it couldn't get any worse on June 24th when they overturned Roe v. Wade. But now see what else the Supreme Court is considering. The Supreme Court is going to look at LGBTQ rights. They're going to decide whether or not businesses are allowed to ban or discriminate against people in the LGBTQ community. That is being considered. They are also considering whether they are going to allow states to overturn federal elections. That is another thing that's being considered. And I kind of struggle a lot with what all of this means. So I try to do a lot of research and I've done a lot of research, but then I also try to ask other people in my life who I know are well read on it and who understand a little bit better than I do, because I am not the best at understanding this stuff, right? Alyssa Scolari [07:16]: And as an aside, I also want to say this, I see a lot of people saying things like how could you not understand what this means? Or how could you not understand? How could you not have seen this coming? And I understand that to a certain degree. What I want to say about that is this. Please do not assume that everybody was present and/or able to pay attention in school when we were being taught about the checks and balances of our government, of our country. Alyssa Scolari [07:57]: Please don't assume that everybody was able to do that, right. Maybe you were there and maybe you listened and you paid attention and you understood it. And it came super easily to you. But what about the kids who couldn't show up at school because they had to stay home sick, taking care of their parents or taking care of their siblings because their parents weren't available or they had to take care of grandma, or they didn't live with mom and dad, or what about the kids who did show up in school, but they had undiagnosed ADHD to the point where they couldn't even pay attention, they couldn't listen. Alyssa Scolari [08:29]: Or they had trauma and they were too busy trying to process their trauma to be able to listen about the checks and balances in this country, right. What about the people that don't have internet access that cannot read up on this stuff themselves? What about the people that are so busy living paycheck to paycheck, that they don't have time to understand how our system of checks and balances work in this country. Please keep that in mind and perhaps talk to other people about these topics because people are so quick to say things like, how could you not have known? How do you not understand how our government works? Why do you even live in this country if you don't understand how our government works? So many people don't, right. And I, to a degree, struggle so much with how things work. Alyssa Scolari [09:19]: So going back to the Supreme Court, now hearing a case about whether or not it's going to be okay for the states to overturn federal elections. Basically what that means is our system of checks and balances could be taken away in the sense that states get to regulate elections, they get to regulate... They have a lot more power over elections, but also states have the power to say, oh, well, we suspect that there was fraud here. And because there was fraud, we are going to throw out these votes, or we're going to say that the result is null and void and we have to vote again. Or no, no, no, they didn't win. They did, right. So basically the states can kind of alter the results based on their own agenda. Alyssa Scolari [10:19]: And there's really nobody that can back them up. There's no court, there's no higher court to be like, okay, well show us the evidence that says that this election was fraudulent, right? Show us the evidence. There's really nobody that's doing that. Basically the states just get to decide. And that is a really frightening thing because essentially it can make our votes meaningless if the state already has their own agenda. Now none of these things have actually been overturned yet, right? So I do not want to cause panic where we don't need to be panicked because right now there are other things that have been overturned that we need to be panicking about. But people are talking about this stuff and anxiety and depression is at an all time high. Suicide rates are on the rise and things are looking grim. It is my hope that just because the Supreme Court is looking at the stuff that it doesn't necessarily mean these things are going to be overturned. Alyssa Scolari [11:30]: They're just looking at it. And it is my hope that they're going to be like, this is ridiculous. And they're just going to throw it out. That is my hope. But that was also our hope with Roe v. Wade. So we don't know. Life is really scary right now. It is so, so, so scary. And I know that I've been talking about a lot of this, but I do not want this whole episode to be talking about all the things that can continue to go wrong in this country because things are going wrong so often. And these are really dark times in our country. What I want to talk about is how to cope, because if you are anything like me, you are struggling to cope. I've been having a really hard time. And I know that the people around me have been having a really hard time. Alyssa Scolari [12:25]: And I know that the people I work with are having a really hard time. So I want to talk about today, how we can get through this what feels like a never ending nightmare. There is a pressure I.n the media, in social media and in the world right now to be on all of the time to be up to date on the latest news, the breaking news, what's happening, who said this, who said that. It is so much pressure in itself. And I want you to know that you are not any less of an activist, you are not any less of a supporter if you are not on all the time. In fact, I am here to encourage you to please take a break because we need it. We are all so tired and exhausted and burnt out from excessive media and bad news after bad news after bad news, not just in the year 2022, it has been three years of horror, right? Alyssa Scolari [13:44]: In 2019, it was like everybody was talking about this COVID virus and will it, won't it reach the United States and we're tracking this, but the numbers are low. And then 2020 hit. And it was like the whole world is shutting down. And since then it has just been an onslaught of death and chaos and destruction and bad news. And nobody, I mean, nobody is meant to be absorbing this amount of information day in, day out for years on end. It is chronic, toxic stress and trauma. And it doesn't surprise me that suicide rates are on the rise. It doesn't surprise me that the rate of mental health disorders, that the rate of PTSD is through the fucking roof right now. Alyssa Scolari [14:38]: But if you're listening to this and this information is ringing true for you, and you're like, oh yeah. Oh yeah. That's how I'm feeling, I am just so done with all of it. I need to tell you that it's okay to dissociate. And that might seem like Alyssa, what the fuck, right? What do you mean, dissociation is a trauma response. Not always, not always. Dissociation or dissociation or dissociation. People say it many, many different ways. And I say dissociate, but some people say it differently. I actually don't know what the correct pronunciation is. I've seen multiple different pronunciations for it. So if somebody could tell me what exactly the correct pronunciation of it is, I would appreciate that. But for now, I'm going to continue to say dissociate. You can say dissociate, however you want to say it. It all means the same thing. It is your brain's way of detaching from reality. And that is a very natural and normal mechanism. Alyssa Scolari [15:45]: Dissociation in moderation is not a bad thing. We all need to detach, and we all need to be able to focus on things that are more reassuring in life so that we can keep our anxiety at a minimum. Sometimes. It is so, so healthy. I mean, honestly, when you meditate, right, when you meditate or are mindful, that can kind of be a... Meditation can be a healthy form of dissociation. There are so many ways in which we dissociate on a regular basis. Have you ever been in school or in a class, and the professor is just droning on and on and on about something. And before you know it, you are two weeks into a fantasy, not two weeks, I should say, but you're 20 minutes into a fantasy about vacationing somewhere on some tropical island with your crush and getting married and this and that. Alyssa Scolari [16:51]: And you're thinking about, oh, what is my wedding dress going to look like? Or things like that, that is dissociation. You have checked out and you have checked in to a fantasy that is much more pleasurable than where you are at now. It's not a response to toxic stress, but you are just like, I need to check out for a little bit. That is such a good thing. It is healthy to be able to check out. Now, of course it becomes unhealthy when your brain is doing that as a result of toxic stress, right? That is when it becomes like this is a trauma response. But right now I think that so many of us are probably having trauma responses as a result of everything that is happening in this world. We need a healthy form of dissociation. So it is not a bad thing. Alyssa Scolari [17:50]: I cannot emphasize that enough. When you are doing it to try to help yourself and intentionally, right. We want to be very intentional about this form of dissociation. So what does that mean? It means literally checking out, checking out of reality for a little bit and checking into other things that feel much safer. I highly recommend putting timers on your phone right now, right. We could all use it, right. We could all use less time on social media, but now more than ever, where you can barely even open up an app without seeing something about abortion laws or LGBTQ rights or gun control, put a timer on the apps that you use. How long do you want to be absorbing that information? I recently, I think maybe like a week and a half ago, when all this happened, I just decided, no, I cannot do this to myself. Alyssa Scolari [18:55]: I cannot be inundated with this information right now. I have to do something. And so I decided that I do not want to consume any more than one hour of social media time a day right now, that is what I can handle. And even that might honestly be a little bit too much. I might bring it to 30 minutes. And so I have been doing that and it has been so helpful for me. Not only have I done that, but I've also decided that when it gets to a certain time, either in the morning or the night, I do not want to be on my phone. I do not want to be on these apps at all, regardless of how much I've been on them throughout the day, I'm giving myself a small window. So basically my apps will essentially turn off at 8:00 PM and then from 8:00 PM until 10:00 AM the next morning, I do not allow myself to go on these apps. Alyssa Scolari [19:56]: And if you have an iPhone, you can just do it right in your settings. Your iPhone will just do it for you. It's pretty easy. If you have an Android, I think you can download an app that will allow you to do that and it's free. So I highly recommend that. Then at night, right, my routine is not only do I actually have much more time, but I can do things that help me to engage in a form of healthy dissociation. And then in the morning, the reason why I have the apps off until solely into the morning is so I am not starting my day off with traumatic or horrible or scary or anxiety provoking news. When I wake up in the morning, I can't open my phone right away and start scrolling through social media. Alyssa Scolari [20:49]: No, I have to get up. I have to get out of bed. I have to make my coffee. I have to do a little bit of work. I have to eat. And then when my day is already started, I can be like, oh, let me check social media for a little bit and see what's going on. And it helps not to start the day off on a wrong foot or effectively, it helps me to not be triggered and be having PTSD symptoms from the moment I get up in the morning. So I highly, highly recommend that if you haven't done that already. Now, the other thing is figuring out what to do with that time that you're not on social media, because if you're not on social media, but then you're sitting down on the couch watching something that's equally as traumatic. Well, it's not really going to help you much. Alyssa Scolari [21:40]: Personally, I love Stranger Things. Love it, love it, love it. And I was so excited for it to come out, but two weeks ago before Roe v. Wade was even overturned, David and I sat down to watch it. And the first 20 minutes, now I'll give them a little bit of credit, because Stranger Things did give a warning about how the scenes that we were about to see could be triggering about the shooting in Texas. And so, okay. You know, I was like, all right, but the whole thing, it was 20 minutes, I think, probably of just horror. Horror that was so similar that I'm like, honestly, I'm a little infuriated that they didn't just cut that scene or make it much shorter together. And just kind of say, we changed the scene out of respect, because it was so similar to what I'm sure so many people saw when they had to witness that Texas shooting. Alyssa Scolari [22:57]: So I was horrified and I was like, turn this off. I cannot watch this. And I have heard, I have not watched it since, but I have heard from a few people that it actually doesn't get much better and that it's actually a very gory season. And as much as I love Stranger Things and was so excited to be able to escape into a fantasy world, I know that that is going to be entirely too triggering for me. And so I have set a boundary with myself that I am not watching it because I can't do that to myself. And so it's important to keep that in mind too, right? If I were to say, oh, I'm not going to go on social media, but I'm going to sit down and I'm going to watch Stranger Things and inundate myself with gore and death and blood and violence. Alyssa Scolari [23:48]: Well, how's that actually helping my brain, right? That's that's only just triggering, it's triggering me. It's not really doing anything. So what will you do during that time? So instead of watching Stranger Things, I've been playing a lot of Mario. We actually bought a new game called Mario Odyssey. And listen, it is exactly the form of dissociation that I need. Helping me to check out and check into a world where I am a small Italian man with a red cap. And I am jumping and hitting those little square boxes. The yellow ones with the question marks on them and collecting coins. And I'm in all these fantasy worlds. And there's great colors. That has been really helpful for me. Another thing that I'm doing is I am doing yoga. I am trying to be so vigilant about doing it so that I can help move emotions through me. Alyssa Scolari [24:55]: That has been really helpful. I highly recommend restorative yoga. If you haven't done restorative yoga, it is the bomb. It is very different than regular yoga in the sense that you're not actually doing much, basically what restorative yoga is it's propping up your body and supporting your body in different positions so that you can maximize your relaxation and meditation. And it is amazing. I don't even think that explanation does it justice, but if you haven't done it, I highly recommend it. I've also been doing Yoga with Adriene and that is free. If you look that up, she has some free classes. So you can try those out. I highly recommend those. Now fair warning, she does have a section where it says yoga for weight loss. So if that might be a triggering for you then perhaps don't check that out. Alyssa Scolari [25:57]: Another person who I am loving is, what's it called, Underbelly yoga. That's who she is. To sign up for her classes is $10 a month, but she is awesome. And it's unlike any kind of yoga I've ever done before. She's super messy and super in her body and just lets her body do whatever feels good, which I feel like a lot of yoga classes don't do. A lot of yoga classes feel super rushed to me. It's like, do this, do that, do this, do that. And I'm like, okay, I didn't even get in one pose before I have to go into another pose. So also highly recommend the Underbelly yoga. I think she's awesome. But that has been something that has been honestly not negotiable for me, in addition to finding ways to releasing my anger. So boxing. Boxing has been a lifesaver. Alyssa Scolari [27:00]: You don't even have to go to a class, get a bag, get gloves, find a partner, and box. Being able to punch things is so therapeutic. It's so therapeutic. Now that's not necessarily dissociation. That's more channeling your rage, but it's still very, very helpful and very relevant for what all of us are experiencing right now. The other thing that's been really helpful is reading. And not reading true crime books. I am really interested in true crime, but I've needed to step away from that. I have made the decision that I need to set a boundary with myself. I cannot be inundated with more disaster and horror. So I have been reading a lot. I just read a book called, Where Do You Go, Bernadette? It's actually, I think now a movie or it's being made into a movie. It was good. Alyssa Scolari [27:57]: It wasn't the best. It was good. I have another book on the way called The People We Meet on Vacation and I'm really looking forward to that. So finding ways to completely detach, put on a show. I don't care if it is a show that you have seen 95,000 times, if it makes you laugh and it's not triggering and it feels safe, put it on. I don't even really like to be in much silence anymore right now. So I almost always have the TV on with either a Disney movie or Disney music or just a sitcom that I really like. I love The Nanny. I have been watching The Nanny. I love Mike and Molly. I've been watching Mike and Molly, both on HBO. Both can be triggering for an eating disorder though. So disclaimer about that. I really don't recommend, especially Mike and Molly, do not watch that if you have an eating disorder, but those are shows that feel comforting for me. Alyssa Scolari [28:58]: And those are shows that make me feel like nothing else is wrong in that moment. And it's very important for you to find books, games, movies, shows, and people that give you that sense of safety. I know that with David, there's a time and a place for us to talk about this, but then when we're not talking about it, we are not talking about it. And we are inundating ourselves with other things. Going outside and taking care of the plants. We are spending more time with our dogs. We are doing a lot of research on how to attract different birds to our yard. We have a bird feeder and we have the most beautiful cardinals that are coming to our bird feeders and just things like that. And it might seem at first, how can I be spending my time on this when I have to be out there protesting? Alyssa Scolari [29:56]: You don't have to be on all the time. Get out there, protest, donate, call people, sign petitions, do whatever you need to do, but do not do it when you're sacrificing yourself. That is something I need you all to remember. Dissociation can be healthy sometimes, especially right now. I know it feels like the world is falling apart. I'm scared too, but I'm not going anywhere. I love you. And I am encouraging you to take the best care of yourself through all of it. So I hope that this helps. I am wishing you the absolute best week. I feel like that's unreasonable for what's what's happening in the world now. I wish you some peace this week. I will say that, and I of course will be holding you in the light and I will see you next week. Alyssa Scolari [31:00]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again. That's paton.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

Alyssa is celebrating 100 episodes this week by talking about the five different love languages, first coined by psychologist Gary Chapman.  Learning about the five love languages can significantly improve the relationships you have with partners, friends, and family. To learn more about the different love languages, please see Gary Chapman's book: The Five Love Languages: How to Express Heartfelt Commitment to Your Mate Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma You can also check out Alyssa at www.alyssascolari.com Transcript: Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey everybody. It is your host Alyssa Scolari. Welcome back to another episode of The Light After Trauma podcast and most especially, happy 100th episode. We are officially in triple digits. I don't know how that happened. I have no clue. It has been almost two years since the podcast started and I can't even wrap my brain around it. We are a hundred episodes in, and it has been so much fun every step of the way. I remember being in the pandemic right at the beginning when everything was supposed to shut down for only two weeks. And I remember thinking to myself, I have to do something to help people that are suffering. I have to do something to help people have a greater understanding about mental health. And it sort of just dawned on me like, "Oh, I really want to start a podcast." Alyssa Scolari [01:28]: That is a great way to reach people and to be able to provide people with free access to mental health education. So I remember I get all these reminders on my phone from Facebook, I guess, as my equipment would come in, like my podcast microphone. I would take a picture of it and I would put it on my story. So I keep getting little reminders on my social media from that two years ago and it is mind boggling and I'm really honored to be here. There are times when the podcast has really stressed me out and has felt like a lot. But honestly, for the most part, I have been loving every second of it and I have formed friendships with, I think so many of you. I have amazing friendships right now that I would've never had if it weren't for this podcast, whether it's people who have been on the show, whether it is people who have contacted me after hearing the podcast and we just connected on social media. Alyssa Scolari [02:38]: I just feel like I have friends all over the world and you have been right by my side, listening to me, not just share my story, but be vulnerable. Because I shared my story, but I share my story for the most part, as I'm going through things. And it has been great to feel the support. It has been great to be able to give support in the form of education about mental health. It's just been great. It's all been great. I don't even have any words. I don't have any words. So if you and I have talked and we're friends, thank you. I love you. If you and I have never spoken, but you just listened to the podcast. Thank you. I love you. We are going to keep going until, I don't know when. I don't know, we're just going to keep going. We're going to keep doing it. So thank you so much for all your support. I would honestly never be here without you. Alyssa Scolari [03:46]: And if you are continuing to like what you hear and you haven't done so already, I kindly ask that you please leave a rating or review of the podcast because those ratings really help the podcast to continue to grow and to reach a wider audience so more people can get the mental health education and support and the trauma focused education that they need. That would be great. And without further ado, let's get into it today. So I thought for the hundredth episode, we could talk about something maybe a little bit more fun. Listen, I always think that mental health stuff is fun, but of course it can be very, very serious. So I thought maybe we would just dial it back a notch and talk about something that I think is really cool. So today I wanted to talk about the five love languages, which I always think are interesting and relate to absolutely everybody. Alyssa Scolari [04:42]: The five love languages, I'm sure most of you have heard of this. But if you have not heard of this so far, it's based on a book by a PhD, Gary Chapman, who was a therapist who worked a lot with couples and with people in complicated relationships. And he wrote this book titled, The Five Love Languages, and the book was released in 1992. And basically what this book is it's a collection of his extensive research as a therapist and he takes kind of everything that he has seen throughout his career. And he condenses people's communication patterns and how couples communicate love. He condenses it all into five basic categories and calls them love languages. Now it's important to remember about love languages, that when we talk about it's not just between romantic partners. Love languages, it's quite literally how we express our love to the people in our lives that we want to express love to. But it's also how we like to be loved by the people in our lives who love us. So it is both. So these love languages are not super old, definitely a newer concept. Alyssa Scolari [06:18]: Like I said, it came out in the nineties, 1992 specifically, the year I was born. So it is as old as I am. It is 30 years old, which is not very old. And if you're listening out there and you think 30 is old, we need to talk. I'm just kidding, kind of, ish. Anyway, so what are the love languages? All right, let's break it down. So we have words of affirmation. We have physical touch. We have receiving gifts. Quality time and acts of service. And we are going to get into what that means. So what are words of affirmation? Well, it seems kind of self-explanatory, but basically it's using your language to tell somebody that you love them. And it's not just, I love you. I love you. I love you. It's more like you are verbally encouraging somebody. You are validating them. You are affirming them. Alyssa Scolari [07:16]: You are actively listening to them and giving them feedback and that feedback is really encouraging. This is the person who is a talker, if you need to just talk through things and you need to hear validation, you need to hear reassurance constantly. You might be a words of affirmation person. That might be your love language. Now, I think it's important to note that I think you can have multiple of these. I think that every relationship needs all of these and I'm not a couple's therapist. So don't quote me on that, but I kind of look at all these and I'm like, "I think that all of them are important." So this isn't to say that you only need one for a relationship to survive, but rather there's usually one of these that rings more true for you than it does for any of the other ones. Alyssa Scolari [08:23]: So folks whose love language is words of affirmation, they really appreciate things like handwritten notes. They like cards for birthdays and anniversaries. They love it when you send them a text in the middle of the day, just, "Hey, I'm thinking about you. I love you." They love that stuff. That is how they feel the most loved. Now, maybe this isn't how you like to receive love, because personally, it's not how I like to receive love and I'm not saying words of affirmation are bad. I like them. They're great. I like when my partner tells me that he loves me, but I don't need it. It's not my oxygen, so to speak. But maybe you are somebody who gives words of affirmation and that is how you communicate your love. So you can have one love language that's your way of communicating, love to others and a totally different love language that's your way of liking to receive love. Alyssa Scolari [09:32]: And that's definitely the case for me. I tend to be a words of affirmation person when it comes to giving love, which honestly does that surprise anybody given the fact that I'm a therapist? Is anybody shocked by this? No, I totally show my love and my care and my concern with my clients and my friends and my husband, by words of affirmation. I'm actively listening. I'm encouraging. I'm affirming people all of the time and this is not with my clients, but with the friends in my life, with the loved ones in my life and with my partner. I will make handwritten cards or I will send an unexpected note. I know I used to do those things when David and I first started dating. I don't so much anymore, although I probably should now that I think about it, but that is something I am much more likely to do. Alyssa Scolari [10:33]: But when I receive things like that, I like it, but it doesn't necessarily just do it for me, if you know what I mean. So the next that we're going to talk about is physical touch. When people hear this, physical touch as a love language, everybody's brain jumps, not everybody but most people's brain jumps to the same thing, which is sex. Or like, "Oh, if you're a love, language is physical touch, then you just want to be having sex all of the time." I've had so many people that I've spoken to about love languages who didn't really understand what physical touch meant. When I say my love language is physical touch because that is my love language, people look at me almost kind of sideways. And I'm like, "That's not what it means." Yes. When it comes to physical touch, sex and intimacy can be a part of it. Alyssa Scolari [11:32]: And that is a part of it, but there are other things that are also really important when it comes to physical touch. And it's more just nonverbal body language. So I like hugging. I kind of like kissing, but I'm more hugging is where it's at for me. But also I like when somebody, when I say somebody I'm talking about David. I like when David will play with my hair or just give me a foot rub or just rub my back, whatever kind of physical touch. Again, non-sexual, I love it. It is the best thing ever to me. Now on the same kind of topic, I don't really appreciate, it's not that I don't appreciate it. But I don't show my love through physical time. You will not see me opening my arms and reaching out to hold somebody and initiating any kind of physical contact. Alyssa Scolari [12:47]: I don't do that. I think because it's definitely partially due to my history of sexual abuse. I like touch, but it's somebody that I have to feel really, really safe with. So I'm not likely to go right to physical touch as a love language for friends or acquaintances or anything like that. And again, it's not that my friends aren't safe. People like my friends are incredibly safe people. It's more so just that I feel like there's a different level of safety that's accessed with David. That just sort of makes me really be able to tap into my desire for physical touch, without having my defenses up or my nervous system kind of reactive as a result of my sexual trauma. So physical touch is my number one. That is my love language, but I am not really one to give a whole lot when it comes to, I guess I should say, I'm not really one to show my love through physical touch. Alyssa Scolari [13:59]: I like to receive through physical touch. So the next one is gift giving, receiving gifts. And this one really, again, is exactly as it sounds, it's putting thought into buying things, not even buying things, making things. It could also be like, "Hey, I made you muffins." When David and I first started dating, we would often bond over our love for food, which honestly we still do. That has never gone away. And where I lived with my parents, there was this really great Italian shop with the best cannolis. And so he also loves blueberry and they made blueberry cannolis. We worked together, we first met at work together. So I would often bring him blueberry cannolis to work. Aside from this though, I'm not much of a gift giver to the point where if I have a close friend whose birthday is coming up, or even if David's birthday is coming up, I panic over what I'm going to get somebody for their birthday. Alyssa Scolari [15:10]: It is such an anxiety thing for me. I'm like, "Okay, well I know this person loves, I don't know, plants. So I think I'm going to get this person a plant. But what if I pick the one plant that they hate, or what if I pick the one plant in the world that they happen to be allergic to?" That is just so my intrusive thoughts. I just think about all the ways in which my gift is going to be the worst thing ever. And so gift giving gives me too much anxiety. I don't like it. I, of course, can receive it. I actually get very overwhelmed when people give me gifts. I will cry, happy tears, but I will still cry. I very much enjoy receiving gifts, but it makes me very emotional that somebody would even think of me and be so kind as to give me a gift. Alyssa Scolari [16:08]: So I definitely enjoy receiving this as a love language, but I have way too much anxiety to be able to really give it. And when I say it, I mean any kind of thoughtful gifts or thoughtful gestures. So then there is quality time. And this is really just when somebody spends uninterrupted time with you. Uninterrupted off of their phone, not on social media and it is one on one time. And this is, I think, a big one for a lot of people. And I think, in particularly, a lot of childhood trauma survivors, especially if there was neglect involved. People really tend to love that one-on-one time. And that's not to say that your childhood trauma is going to drive what your love languages are. That's certainly not the case, or at least there's no research to my knowledge that is supporting of that. Alyssa Scolari [17:15]: But I do think that sometimes it can play a factor. So quality time really is creating special moments. Let's go for a walk. We're going to have date nights every week or every other week. We are going to go to the gym together. We're going to ride into work together or Friday nights, our pizza and movie nights. Again, I think that these things are important for every relationship and friendship. I think quality time is, of course, very important for a friendship. But I think the question is that the most important thing to you? This would be probably my second most important love language aside from physical touch. I also really communicate my love with other people with quality time, "Hey, let's hang out, let's do something. Let's go here. Let's go there." Now that I've recovered a lot from my trauma and I don't have as much anxiety around seeing people. I really am somebody who enjoys quality time. Alyssa Scolari [18:32]: So then there's acts of service. That is the last one, that's certainly not the least. And this is just letting somebody know that you want to help them, lightening their load, doing tasks for them. "Hey, I'm going to take your car. I'm going to go get your oil changed." Or, "Hey, I decided to make dinner tonight because I know you had a really long day." Or it can be even something so small like, "Oh, Hey, I fed the dogs this morning, because I know you had a meeting." It doesn't have to be monumental. It can be very minor. "I made you breakfast. I hung a load of laundry." Could be very small things. Acts of service is absolutely the way that my husband likes to communicate his love for me. He is a huge acts of service guy. Alyssa Scolari [19:30]: He does so much for me, whether it's cooking, whether it's cleaning, taking care of the dogs. He will do anything for me and it is really, really awesome. Now I think in terms of how he likes to receive love, I definitely think it's quality time. I think he really appreciates quality time. So those are the love languages. Now here's what's really important about these love languages is, I think for many, many couples and many different kinds of friendships, love languages can be a little bit difficult because we have to learn a lot about the other person and what their needs are. And it's sort of like, "Well, what do we do when our love languages are completely different?" And I think that when you're with somebody and your love language is totally different than theirs. For trauma survivors, a lot of times for childhood abuse survivors, it can be really, really triggering because we may not necessarily see that. Alyssa Scolari [20:50]: I may not see that my mom's showing me love by acts of service, buying me clothes, cooking for me. I may not see that as love and I may be upset and feeling unloved because I'm not getting hugs or cuddles from my mom. That is sort of a miscommunication. I'm not seeing that you love me because you are not loving me in a way that I can see, you are loving me in a way that only you can see. So this is why love languages are so important. Yes, they're fun to talk about, but they're actually really important for the growth of any kind of relationship, whether it's romantic or not. And we have childhood trauma, we are already used to not getting our needs met and our brains are already hypervigilant and extra wired for protection. Alyssa Scolari [21:51]: So as soon as we see that our needs aren't getting met, maybe your love language is quality time and your partner is not making any time for you. They will hang a little laundry and they mow the lawn and they cook, but maybe they haven't planned a date night. Well, here you are triggered feeling abandoned, unloved, maybe worried that something is going wrong in the relationship because your needs aren't getting met. So you are triggered because you can't see that they're expressing love through their way. So I think that it's really important to not only ask yourself, what are my love languages? But to also ask yourself, what are the love languages of those people around me? And you don't even have to ask yourself because if I were you, I would go straight to the source. Go right up to your partner, talk to your friends. What are your love languages? Alyssa Scolari [22:48]: Because once you start to realize, "Oh, Hey, this person never hugs me. I have my best friend. My best friend never hugs me." This is not a true story. "But my best friend never hugs me when she sees me. We see each other twice a year and she never hugs me. She only waves. I feel like she doesn't even want to be my friend." Meanwhile, she might not be hugging you, but she lives in another country and she spent money on a plane ticket, traveled halfway around the world to spend a week with you, quality time or could that be acts of service? Maybe she doesn't hug you when she sees you. But when you guys aren't together, she's texting me all the time, giving you words of affirmation. It is really important to fully assess all of what is going on sometimes when you're feeling triggered or we're feeling unloved. Alyssa Scolari [23:45]: Is it that I'm being unloved right now? Or is this person expressing love to me in a different way? And if that's the case, if somebody is expressing love to you in a way that you don't necessarily receive, that's the time to have a conversation about it. Because I think you have to decide like, "Okay, what do we do and how do we compromise so that we both get our needs met? My husband likes quality time. I like physical touch. So we compromise while we spend quality time together, while we are sitting down on the couch, watching a movie together. I'm getting a foot rub or we're holding hands or he's rubbing my back or he's playing with my hair. How can we compromise on this so that both of our needs get met? Alyssa Scolari [24:42]: It is a really important conversation to have with your friends, with your partners, with your loved ones. But I think one of the really important things here that I also want to say is to not confuse abuse with, "Oh, our love languages aren't the same." Because I see that happens or can happen. Love languages aren't to be thought about when you're in a situation where your partner is abusive or controlling or manipulative. That's not where we want to justify somebody's behaviors based off of love languages. So be careful not to justify abuse based off of somebody's love languages. And this is kind of an egregious example, but just to kind of show you what I'm talking about, it wouldn't be appropriate to say, "Well, when I was a child, we never had any food or hot water in the house, but my mom was always home with us." Alyssa Scolari [26:02]: You don't want to justify neglect. So that is really important because I do think that some people do that, not maybe necessarily with child abuse and neglect, but I do see it happening a lot with romantic partners. "He's mean to me and he talks down to me because words of affirmation aren't his love language. He likes physical touch, or I need to be open to having sex more because his love language is physical touch. Therefore, I can't say no." Those are things to really think about. And I highly recommend talking with a therapist about to make sure, yes, can it be the case that one partner may need to work on their being more intimate, perhaps. But we want to make sure that we talk to a therapist about that and make sure that it's not the case that your partner is pressuring you inappropriately so to have sex. Alyssa Scolari [27:07]: So I hope that makes sense. And I think it's a very, very important takeaway when we talk about the five love languages. So these are really fun. I absolutely love them. And if you don't know what your love language is, there are a gazillion quizzes online that you could take to find out. You can also send the quizzes to your friends, to your partner to be able to find out. And it's a fun way to, I think, get to know each other a little bit more. And again, if you have any questions or concerns like, "Was this abuse? Am I confusing love languages? Is this okay?" Please make sure that you talk to a therapist or to a professional about it. I strongly encourage that. So that was that. That was a wrap on episode 100, which was so fun. Thank you again for being here with me for 100 episodes. I love you all. I am holding you in the light and I will see you next week. Alyssa Scolari [28:17]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again. That's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

Alyssa has stepped away from the podcast this week while she works on a very exciting project for you all! This week, we are reaching back into the archives with a timely episode as summer heats up in the Northern Hemisphere! REDUX: Live your best life this summer as Alyssa offers advice to those of us grappling with a fear of wearing shorts, tank tops, and bathing suits this summer. Tune in for some inspiration so that this summer can be one where you embrace the incredible body you have - at any shape and size!   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma   Transcript: Alyssa Scolari: Hey,how's it going? You know what time it is. We are back out it with another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. You know the deal. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari and life is pretty good right now. Just wanted to take a moment to kind of check in with all of you. And sometimes I feel like with the interview episodes, sometimes I feel like my personality or my connection to the audience can get lost in translation, just because I think there's a lot of obviously getting to hear and understand and process the stories and the information from the guest speakers. [00:01:27] So while I absolutely love having guest speakers, I also really want to maintain an authentic connection with all the listeners out there. So, today I was supposed to have a guest speaker come on and unfortunately there was just some kind of confusion in scheduling. So we had to reschedule and I have some free time and I was like, you know what: [00:01:53] "I actually have some things I wanted to talk about." So it's kind of nice to be able to do a solo episode. I have not done one in a while and that is not because I haven't wanted to, but life has been a little bit, how would you say this: wild, insane all over the place, aah I shouldn't say insane. One of the things I've really been trying to work on is trying to avoid the use of certain words. [00:02:25] When we talk about the concept of linguistic evolution, right?.We don't use certain words anymore. I think one of the words that I'm really trying hard to stop using is crazy and insane. So my reactions to things, because I'm such an animated person, my gut response is to always be like, "oh my God, that's crazy." [00:02:45] Or, "oh my God, that's insane." But you know, it can be offensive calling somebody crazy. You know, the word crazy itself has a very negative connotation and was, I think a lot of people who struggled with mental illness were called crazy and I've been called crazy actually. And it's, it cuts pretty deep. [00:03:07] So, that's just my own personal preference. Some people may be listening and may be like, "oh my gosh, that's way too much of a stretch," but that's just something I've been trying to work on. So that was a little tidbit, but life has been so wild. We are in the process of house hunting. And if any of you know anything about this market, it is... [00:03:29] I mean again, I'm not going to say crazy, but it is unlike anything I've ever seen before in my life. People are coming in and offering literally a hundred thousand dollars over asking price for homes, because there's such a high demand for homes. And there simply aren't enough sellers. And we know we've been looking for homes for.... [00:03:50] I want to say coming up on a year now. And it has been a really defeating process. The last couple months in particular, we thought that we had found something and we're still actually not entirely sure if it's going to go through, we don't know. So we may be moving. We may not be moving, but our lives have really been house hunting every spare minute that we get. [00:04:13] And I live in New Jersey as many of you know, but we are looking to move to a different state. So, we're looking to move to Pennsylvania. So I would still be able to commute to my office in New Jersey. It's been so tough and every second has been spent traveling to another state to look at homes and making offers on homes and getting your hopes up and getting deflated essentially when you're told that somebody else came in and offered a hundred thousand dollars over asking price. And it's just, I don't know, it's very defeating. I have wanted to get out of the town that I live in for quite some time. It doesn't hold the best memories for me. [00:04:58] And it's, I think very triggering to live in the same town where a lot of your trauma occurred and no, that's not to say I haven't had some good times in this place. I certainly have, but it's really hard living in a place where you've had traumas because I am reminded every day of my life. So. I really have been itching to get out of this town and get out of this area. [00:05:28] And sadly, it's just not working out, which I have a very hard time with being told no. Or with having to wait. I'm not very patient. I kind of want what I want when I want it, which is something I'm working on. So yeah, it's just been...it's been rough and we want to have a bigger yard for our dogs and it's been, it's been a hard time, you know, things could certainly be worse. [00:05:58] Thank God. My health is improving. I'm healing. I'm getting better. My autoimmune disease is, it appears, knock on wood, to be in remission. I hate to even say that out loud because I'm terrified that I'm going to get a flare up again. You can, if you're curious to hear more about the auto-immune issues that I've been having, you can tune into episode 41. [00:06:21] I believe it is where I talk a little bit more about the autoimmune disease I was diagnosed with. So with all of that said, it's just. It's been a little hectic. So I have not, I feel given my own, I haven't really put the personal touch on a lot of what I do because I really just haven't had the space to do that. [00:06:46] So I appreciate all of your understanding and that I am really working on getting back to adding a little bit more of a personal touch. I was really excited about all the feedback I got for the mini-sode series, the Survive and Thrive stories. It's been so fun and such an honor to be able to read everybody's story. [00:07:08] So please, please, please. If you feel called to do so. Please send in your story to lightaftertrauma@gmail.com. I really, I am just so honored. And so, so many are so funny, those emails that you send and I love it cause I'm a big fan of humor therapy. So I love being able to kind of take what you've been through and take things that are really, really dark and very serious and find kinda some light or some humor in them. Again, that doesn't take away from the seriousness of what happened, but some of y'all just have a really good sense of humor. So I appreciate, hearing your your stories. So with that said, I wanted to come on to talk about an experience that I had today, which felt so liberating. And I think now's a really good time to share this experience. I went to the beach today and that might not seem like a big deal for people who don't struggle with body competence. But for me, that was huge. And I went by myself. First of all, because of the pandemic, I really haven't been to the beach in over a year. [00:08:25] So I have not had to like do the whole bathing suit situation in quite some time. And second of all, I was alone, which is always extra hard for me because it's one of those things where, when you're alone, I think you're more in your head and you feel more like people are looking at you. [00:08:48] So today is, it's a Wednesday. I don't see clients on Wednesdays. It's my day off. And I decided, you know, the weather is beautiful. I'm heading to the beach today. And I packed my stuff up. And I went to the beach all by myself and I struggled. I went with shorts and like kind of an oversized t-shirt and I struggled with whether or not I was going to take my bathing suit off...take my bathing suit off!?!? [00:09:17] Yeah, no, I was not going to do that. Hoping to not end up in jail for public indecency. What I was trying to say is I was debating whether or not I was going to take off my shirt and my shorts and just kind of be in my bikini and it was really a battle. Of course, I had to like look around at the people next to me and kind of size them up and be like, well, are they looking at me? [00:09:45] You know, what are they going to think? But then I just did it, right. I tried to get out of my head and into my body and I was like, what would feel good right now? And what would feel good is to be able to lay down on this huge beach blanket that I have that I think my aunt got me when I was in the fourth grade is still have it because it's amazing [00:10:06] All I want us to do is just chill out on my beach blanket and have that like warm sensation of the sun on your skin, glorious. Well, obviously I can't do that when I'm covered from head to toe and, you know, clothing and not a bathing suit. So I was like, all right. Screw it taking off my clothes. So I did it. [00:10:28] I was in a bikini and. Just as an aside, it was a bikini that I enjoyed. Right. It wasn't a bikini that I bought because I was like, oh, well this is going to cover up the most. So let me just buy this one. This one was so fun. It was like a light blue, like a sky blue with like gold throughout. And it was strapless, which like.... [00:10:57] why am I talking about the details? So I'm talking about the details because I love the bikini and I'm allowed to love the bikini. And I don't think it hit me that I was allowed to love a bathing suit that I was in until today. When I was just laying on that blanket with my toes in the sand and the sun on my body. [00:11:17] And I was like, wow, I really liked this bikini. It's really comfortable. It's really cute. And I'm allowed to like it and you know what you're allowed to like your bathing suit too. So it was, I think really a transcendental moment for me, where I shifted from I'm just gonna wear whatever hides the most of my body to I'm going to wear whatever feels fucking fabulous. [00:11:47] And so I did it now. I struggled a little bit when it came time to like sit up. Right. And I know that there are people out there who can relate to this. So when it came time to sit up, I'm like, oh God, who's going to be looking at the rolls on my stomach. Now, I'm like looking around to see who's looking. [00:12:08] And in fact there was a guy who was, I don't know. He honestly, he was probably like 50 feet away from me. And I noticed that he got up and actually moved his chair further away at one point. And do you know what my eating disorder brain did? Right. Get a load of this shit. My eating disorder brain was like, oh, he probably got up and moved because he couldn't stand the sight of your body. [00:12:34] That is what my brain did. And it's horrible. And it's so body dysmorphic and it's so like eating disordered, but I was able to recognize it and I was able to talk back to it. And I told myself two things. I'm like one...well, I told myself a couple of things. One that's your fucking eating disorder, right. [00:12:57] Two, look at the tide, the tide had significantly risen, so there was much less beach and he probably didn't want his ass sitting in the water because his chair was very low to the ground. So he probably picked up his chair and moved it back so the water didn't hit him. It's still the middle of May. The water in New Jersey is still freezing. [00:13:20] That makes the most sense. What really doesn't make sense is the fact that he would take one look at me from 50 yards away and be so repulsed that he had to get up and move his chair. Like what come on, what is my eating disorder doing? Right. So, you know, at that moment I kind of just laughed at myself and I was like, honestly, Ed, I call my eating disorder, Ed. [00:13:42] It's a little tip that I got from a book that I read called Life Without Ed, by Jenny Schaefer, highly recommended by the way. So I call my eating disorder, Ed, and I was just like, you know what Ed, like, fuck you. Fuck you. Because you're not ruining my perfect day at the beach. And I sat up and that is a very hard thing for me to do. [00:14:05] I used to struggle and take like five minutes to sit up because I would have to have the towel wrapped around my stomach so that nobody could see my rolls because I was so embarrassed. Well, guess what? Today I just fucking sat up and it was so liberating. I sat there and I looked into the ocean and I could feel my stomach rolls, right. [00:14:32] Because who doesn't have a stomach roll when they're bending over or sitting like, that's what our bodies do. Right. Our skin rolls, the fat that we have in our stomach, like rolls, stomach rolls, aren't bad. And I just breathe and I was very, very in tune with my body. I was very in tune with my surroundings and I just didn't care if anybody was looking at me, you know, I ended up having a couple that came and sat actually somewhat close to me closer than what I'm comfortable with for sure. [00:15:11] And honestly, closer than what was necessary, because there was so much space on the beach. I don't know why they needed it to be that close to me, but whatever. I was uncomfortable and I was really just, I, at one point I just stopped caring and I became so much more infatuated with my body and sitting down and processing all of the turmoil. [00:15:36] My body has helped me to survive over the last year of the pandemic and then a whole bunch of things that happened in the middle of that pandemic that were pretty traumatizing. And I was filled with such gratitude, such gratitude for my body. Such gratitude for the tree trunk thighs that I've had my whole life that I have hated my whole life. [00:16:06] I found myself sitting in gratitude for these legs, for my stomach, my belly, for all the scars on my body, the stretch marks that are so natural that almost any body has quite frankly. I was just in gratitude and I felt so at peace with this body, I kind of just sat criss cross applesauce on the beach blanket, which I've never done before at a beach. [00:16:39] I truly, I've never done that before. And it hit me that I have lost so many valuable beach years because I spent time hating my body. There was a time where I would claim that I hated the beach because I simply didn't want to go because I didn't want to be seen. So I would be like, oh, I don't like the sand or I don't like the salty ocean water. [00:17:07] It makes me feel gross. That's such a load of crap. I love the sand, what a wonderful exfoliant. And I love the saltwater. It feels so healing to me. And I used to say for years that I hated the beach because I was terrified of being seen. And I just wasn't today. I was alone with myself, with my body, with nothing to distract me, and I felt completely at ease and there are people who come in my office and they ask me, or there are people who I connect with on social media. [00:17:48] And they ask me questions like, well, Alyssa, why am I doing this work? Why bother trying to recover from an eating disorder? Why bother trying to recover from trauma and it's so that you can have days like I had today where everything just feels okay inside of you, because at the end of the day, that's all that really matters, is that you feel good inside. And when you feel good inside, you care less about what other people are thinking. What other people are saying. It was the first time that I didn't spend my entire trip at the beach just looking at the people around me, wondering what they would think. If I dared to get up and walk over to the water and put my toes in the water, I just did it. I just got up and did it because it was what I wanted to do. And it's so beautiful. And, you know, I know that this will resonate with a lot of you. [00:18:58] And I want you to know that you can get to that spot too. It's a beautiful spot to be in. And I'm not saying that I will never struggle again. I think I absolutely will struggle again. I think that's just part of life, but all the hard work that I've done in trauma and in my eating disorder recovery has helped me get to this moment of truly loving the flesh that I was given, the meat on my body, the weird feet that I have, the you know, crooked smile that I have that some people probably have never noticed. And I notice all the time, I love all of it. And I might not tomorrow, I might wake up full of self-loathing, but today. It was a really, really healing moment for me. [00:19:53] And I want you to know that wherever you're at right now with your body and with yourself, you deserve to wear a bathing suit that you fucking love, and you deserve to go to the beach and to sit and to not have to look around and make sure that people aren't looking at your rolls, you deserve to be able to get to the beach and to take your shorts off. [00:20:18] And to not have to hide your thighs, be so thankful for this body that has gotten you through, if nothing else than just the last year alone of immense loss and sickness and fear and all the other horrible things that the pandemic has brought. Your body has kept you alive throughout it all. And if nothing else go to the beach and celebrate that and rock whatever body you have, because it is glorious, you are glorious and you deserve happiness. [00:21:00] And that's all I have to say about that really. I mean, I know that's a long winded speech. It's a long winded spiel, but I hope that it can help inspire at least one of you in knowing that this summer you literally do not have to suffer or hide yourself. You deserve to be seen on the inside and the outside. [00:21:24] So if this resonates with you, whether you are he or she or they, or anywhere in between, this is your sign that every single body is a beach body. And go where whatever bathing suit you want, have a wonderful summer. Everybody I'm still going to be here. I'm not going anywhere. Still going to be rolling out podcast episodes, but I love you all. [00:21:53] From the bottom of my heart. I am so incredibly thankful for your support, for your loyalty, for listening, for being on this journey with me, the highs and the lows of recovery I am with you, you are with me. I feel it every day. And I just feel like I have thousands of new friends and. I'm really grateful. [00:22:17] So thank you all. I love you all. If you haven't done so yet, please feel free to subscribe and leave a review and rating. Most important of those is a rating and subscription to the podcast. And yeah, that's all I got. Have a wonderful week. Go enjoy some sunshine and let's get a pop in the summer and our beach bodies. Love you all. Take care. [00:22:47] Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to light after trauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram. We are at light after trauma and on Twitter. It is at light after pod. And if you're on Facebook, please be sure to join our Facebook group. [00:23:07] It is a private community where trauma survivors are able to connect and chat with one another. That Facebook group is called light after traumas. So just look us up on Facebook and be sure to join. Lastly, please head over to patrion.com/light. After trauma to support our show, we are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. [00:23:32] So please head on over again. That's patrion.com/late after trauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.   Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram. We are at @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter. It is @lightafterpod. And if you're on Facebook, please be sure to join our Facebook group. It is a private community where trauma survivors are able to connect and chat with one another. That Facebook group is called light after traumas. So just look us up on Facebook and be sure to join. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show, we are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again. That's patrion.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

Happy Pride Month! The month of June (and every month!) is a great time to celebrate the beauty of the LGBTQPIA+ community. In this week's episode, Alyssa notes that while we certainly have come a long way in gaining rights for the LGBTQPIA+ community, there is still very far to go in terms of achieving true equality. For example, many of our states still recognize the lethal "Gay Panic Defense". Alyssa also includes a personal note on her own experience with coming out for the first time this year.    Source Material: https://people.com/human-interest/pride-month-explained-pride-month-facts/   https://lgbtqbar.org/programs/advocacy/gay-trans-panic-defense/  Donate to the Human Rights Campaign Donate to The Trevor Project Donate to the National Center for Transgender Equality   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma   Transcript: Alyssa Scolari [00:24]: Everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host Alyssa Scolari. Super excited to be here because it is Pride Month. And that is exactly what we are talking about. This episode, we are talking about Pride. We are talking about the importance of Pride, and we are talking about why we need to continue to advocate for the LGBTQ community. I'm really, actually, a little bit anxious about today's episode, because I am going to be talking about things that I have never spoken about before. And so I'm a little bit nervous as we get into it, but we are just going to dive right in. Although before we do that, just some housekeeping stuff. So if you have not done so already, please leave a review for the podcast. Reviews, ratings go such a long way in terms of helping the podcast to reach a greater audience. And I really feel strongly that everybody deserves some kind of access to free mental health education, information, and support. Alyssa Scolari [01:43]: So the more reviews and ratings we have, the greater access people can have to this podcast. And it would mean the world to me. So if you have not done so already, please do so. I would greatly appreciate it. Also, if you are interested in becoming a Patreon member, you can check out the show notes where you can just click right on the link and you can donate as little or as much as you would like to the podcast. You can become a monthly Patreon member, or you could just do a one time donation, anything would be greatly appreciated. And all of the money that you donate goes directly in to helping fund the podcast and helping to keep the machine going, essentially. It costs roughly anywhere from $800-$900 a month to fund this podcast, between all of the software that we have to pay for and the editing. That is what it costs. So, again, this is not me complaining about the price. I am really fortunate enough to be in a place where I can do this, but if you are able and willing to give any amount would be greatly appreciated. Alyssa Scolari [03:04]: I hope everyone is off to a grand old week. I am doing pretty good, had a good day today. It's kind of late when I'm recording this, it's about 9:30 at night, which is pretty late for me to be doing any sort of work. But I had a burst of energy and I felt like I had a lot to say. And I was like, "I'm just a little anxious about this discussion today. You know what, we're doing it." So I made myself a cup of hot tea and here we are chatting today. So I think that as I get into this conversation, people are going to have one of two thoughts. And I think the first thought people might have is, "Why are we talking about Pride and the LGBTQ+ community on a trauma focused podcast?" And the second question people might have is, "This podcast has been going on for almost two years and I've not heard anything like this. We've never talked about this on this podcast before. Why now? Why now?" Alyssa Scolari [04:22]: And I'm going to answer that question, but first we're going to answer the question of why is this topic on a trauma focused podcast? Truthfully, I don't know the background that you come from wherever you're listening from. I don't know. I do know this though. Some people think, they have this thought of like, "Oh, okay, it's 2022 and all LGBTQ+ people are accepted and there's no need for any of this Pride or anything like that." And then other people, I think, live in environments and communities where it's in their face every single day, just how far we still have to go in terms of getting equality for this community. Now I want to address the people who might feel like we do have equality because unfortunately we just don't. Things are becoming maybe a little bit better, although in some ways I absolutely question even that. It feels like we are going back decades. Alyssa Scolari [05:40]: I know that we're a little bit better in terms of representation, but we're still not there. Growing up, how likely are we to see, when we watch movies we see straight families. When we read books, it's about straight families. Everybody identifies as either male or female. The male and the female get together. They get married, they have children, they usually have one boy, one girl. Anytime we so much as maybe pick out Christmas cards and we're looking at stock images online and we see the same kind of family members in stock images. We see a man, we see a woman that we presume are the husband and the wife and then we see their very straight children. Non-gender, queer, male, female. What have you? It is so rare for any of us, even today to pick a movie out and have it be a movie where there are two dads or a movie where there are two moms or a movie where a child is transgender. Alyssa Scolari [06:57]: It's so rare to go on the internet and search family photos and see families that look any different than a man and a woman and their children. We still have churches who are vehemently against the LGBTQ community. I actually, today, saw an image surface as a reaction to Pride Month. Somebody who doesn't believe that LGBTQ folks should have rights, drew this photo and it's a response to the Pride rainbow flag. The rainbow that is the symbol of Pride and the symbol of LGBTQ folks. Somebody actually drew a picture of a man and a woman. Alyssa Scolari [07:47]: And in between the man and the woman, they're holding hands with their two kids. They're little stick figures and they're holding an umbrella and they're shielding themselves and their children from basically a rainbow flag, rain that looks like it's coming down. All that image is to say, "We don't believe in this. We don't respect these people. And we are going to do everything in our power to shield ourselves and our children from the LGBTQ community." It is still so dangerous out there for folks who identify as LGBTQPIA+. Homophobia and transphobia and the like have dated back for centuries and part of the reason, well, the main reason that we have Pride Month is because of what happened in the Stonewall Uprising. So for those of you who don't know, the date was June 28th, 1969 in New York City's West Village. Alyssa Scolari [09:01]: The police raided a very popular gay bar that was called the Stonewall Inn. Now this was super normal for the time. This was super normal. Police did raid gay bars and gay facilities and they got arrested and this time the patrons of the Stonewall Inn fought back. And what this started was a series of riots that went on for days of people protesting these riots, from people that were saying, "I deserve to have my rights. I deserve to be seen and heard. I deserve to have equality. And I matter." This was historic. And in fact, President Barack Obama in 2016, declared the Stonewall Inn a historic landmark, which is so cool because these Stonewall Riots were historic and they paved the way for people in the LGBTQ community to achieve their equality. Alyssa Scolari [10:11]: And then the year after the uprising was when the first Pride parade began and it was in June so that is where the tradition of Pride comes from. So it is so much more than just people getting together and saying, "Oh, Hey, we like the month of June." No, this is a yearly celebration. It's a yearly remembrance. It is an honor for the people who fought for LGBTQ community members to have their rights. So nearly 10 years after that was when the Pride flag was first created and it was created by a man named Gilbert Baker. And Gilbert was asked to create a symbol of Pride by a man whose name is Harvey Milk. Now Harvey Milk was the first openly gay elected politician in the United States. So he asked Gilbert to create a flag that symbolized Pride and we have the rainbow flag. Now the rainbow flag actually started out with a few more colors and then had less colors. Today, each of the colors stands for something very specific. Alyssa Scolari [11:23]: So according to a People article, red is the symbol of life. Orange is the symbol for healing. Yellow is symbolic for sunshine. Green is symbolic for nature. The blue is representative of harmony and the purple is representative of spirit. I believe the original flag was eight colors, but it is now six. As far as we've come, though, we still have so much further to go. I want to talk to you about something called the gay panic defense, and this is going to help you really get an understanding for just how far we have to go in terms of equality and just basic human rights for LGBTQ folks. So what is the panic defense, the LGBTQ panic defense or the gay panic defense? It is a freaking legal strategy and get ready because if you haven't heard of this is going to knock your fucking socks off. The gay panic defense is a legal strategy. Alyssa Scolari [12:43]: So basically what that strategy does is it asks a jury to take into account a victim's sexual orientation or their gender identity and take into account that their orientation or their identity is to blame for a defendant's violent reaction. Victim blaming much? And yes, you heard me correctly. Basically, gay panic is a legal strategy that is asking the jury to consider the fact that somebody being gay or somebody being transgender or non-binary is the reason and a good enough reason why somebody may have attacked them in a hate crime. It's basically like the offender is saying that they went like temporarily insane. They had a gay panic or a trans-panic that caused them to violently attack the victim. Tell me that's not abso-fucking-lutely insane. Alyssa Scolari [13:57]: And what's even more fucking insane is that this gay panic defense actually fucking works. It works. It has been used to get people off in the courts. People can attack people simply because they are lesbian or gay or transgender. They can then show up in court and they can say that they panicked because of somebody's gayness or because somebody's transgender and the jury can go, "Oh, okay. That sounds reasonable. You're off the hook because you had a gay panic." It makes my blood boil. It makes my blood boil. And the worst part about it is that the gay panic defense is only banned in 17 states in the United States. Meaning the rest of the country's, or I'm sorry, the rest of the states in the United States of America, if they aren't considering passing the gay panic defense, they've already passed it. The majority of the states in this country are perfectly fine with the gay panic defense. And that right there goes to show you why we need Pride Month and why we are talking about this on a trauma focused podcast. Alyssa Scolari [15:22]: Because people in the LGBTQ community are being murdered, are being targeted, are being killed simply because of who they are and our laws are basically saying that it's okay. According to lgbtqbar.org, in 2019 alone, there were 1,656 hate crimes. And this is just what we know of because there are so many more that go unreported. But just in 2019, there were 1,656 hate crimes against people for either their sexual orientation or their gender identity. And this statistic makes up 18.8% of hate crime incidents, like single bias hate crime incidents. According to research, also from lgbtqbar.org, one out of five lesbian, gay and bisexual people in the United States will experience a hate crime in their lifetime. And more than one out of four transgender people will. We know that transgender people are targeted and they're even more likely to be targeted if they are part of a non-white race. And I got to say, lately, it just feels like things are getting worse for the LGBTQ community and we need Pride more than ever. Alyssa Scolari [16:51]: I mean, look at what's happening in Florida with the 'Don't Say Gay' bill. And in Texas, where it is now considered a social services call to have a child seek transgender affirming care. It is just an absolute nightmare. And with greater and greater access to what's going on in the world through social media, kids are bearing witness to all of this and it is very clear to so many kids that it is still not safe for them to be who they are. We need Pride because there are kids and adults out there who would rather take their own lives than be out and proud about who they are because of the hate that exists and I see it every day in my practice. I see it. It is absolutely heartbreaking. There is little to no representation in schools. Teachers will get reprimanded if they say anything about it because it's considered a taboo topic, which it absolutely shouldn't be. Alyssa Scolari [18:05]: And overall, kids just feel so isolated, growing up feeling like there is nobody who represents them, feeling like it's not okay to be a part of the LGBTQ community and it is devastating. So we need Pride more than ever. And now I think to address the second question that I talked about in the beginning of this episode. The question being, why have I waited two years to talk about this? In August, the podcast will have been alive for two years, which boggles my mind to even say, and I haven't talked about this. And trust me, it's not because I don't care and it's not because it's low on my priority list. Anybody who knows me knows that the LGBTQ community is actually top priority for me. But what I'm going to say is this, and this is going to come with a warning. So if you are listening to this and you know me personally, I would think very carefully about how much you want to know about me, because I'm going to share some stuff. Alyssa Scolari [19:35]: So think about it. Feel free to hit pause and talk to me about it, because I know I have a lot of wonderful people in my life who listen to the podcast who know me personally, and you're going to learn some stuff. All right, there is your fair warning. If you are continuing to listen to this and you know me personally, you better come talk to me about this. So anyway, part of, I think, the reason why I haven't talked about this yet is you are going to notice a pattern with me, not really a pattern, but I only talk about things as I'm ready to talk about them. I bring to this podcast a level of vulnerability mixed in with my expertise and that vulnerability is really hard for me. And I have to be comfortable sharing, I have to be comfortable. And I haven't been comfortable because I have been grappling with basically where I fall in terms of the LGBTQ community. Alyssa Scolari [20:50]: Because quite honestly, I can't deny that I'm part of it. And I think it's taken me a long time to get to a place where I've been comfortable talking about it. And so I knew that one day I would share this, but I needed to give myself time to be ready and to feel comfortable and safe and secure. I grew up in this really small conservative Catholic town. Where it is so not that okay to be gay and looking back on the way I grew up, I would've never in a million years have admitted or even given myself the opportunity to explore the fact that I might be anything other than a straight, blonde girl, who's going to find a dark, tall, handsome husband and live happily ever after. I really didn't get to explore the different parts of me until I left my hometown. Alyssa Scolari [22:14]: And then I really got to reflect back on my childhood and as I did so, it really hit me that I am so not straight, so not straight. I definitely was interested in both women and men my whole life. I remember being a kid and being interested in women, but kind of writing it off and just ignoring that part of me because in my brain it was only okay to be attracted to men. And so looking back on it, I'm like, "Oh man, I was not straight. I liked women and I liked men." I was absolutely bisexual. And I remember being in high school and playing around a little bit with my gender. There was a time in high school, I think I was a sophomore. And I went to school dressing masculine and I changed my name. Alyssa Scolari [23:31]: And people were calling me Sam and I think I was definitely experimenting at the time. I remember it being like a joke with my friends and my friends were all calling me that. And I was just pretending to be a guy, whatever that means. I was acting more masculine, listen, it didn't last long. It maybe lasted a week before I was like, "Okay, this isn't me." But looking back on it that actually wasn't a joke. I was definitely experimenting with my gender. And I think that after that, I became pretty firm in my identity as a woman, with pronouns that feel comfortable to me, which are she and her, but I was still super unclear about my sexual preference. And looking back, I did some really questionable things in my childhood and my teenage years and my young adult years that I could look back on it now. Alyssa Scolari [24:41]: And I'm like, "Yeah, I don't know how nobody saw that one." Maybe people did. I don't know. I really don't know. I don't think so. But I just think it's so funny to look back on and like, "Man, there was no part of me that was a straight woman. I definitely swung both ways and I'm okay with it. I'm okay talking about it." That's the other thing we have to talk about. [inaudible 00:25:10] I'll touch on when it comes to bisexuality. Yes, I married a man. So me coming on here and talking about my preferences and who I'm attracted to doesn't make me any less in love with my husband. My husband is the person I am a 100% committed to, 110%. There's never a question of that. So I think that a lot of people have this idea in their heads that, "Oh, you know, you're already married, but then you're coming out as bisexual. Well, what does that mean? Does that mean that you don't want to be with your partner?" Alyssa Scolari [25:45]: None of that is true. Just because you find somebody and you get married doesn't mean that your sexual preference changes. I was bisexual before I got married. I just didn't know it and I'm still the same way. But the person that I choose to spend my life with is my husband. Doesn't mean that my sexual preferences or that who I'm attracted to has to change because I've gotten married. Just because you marry somebody doesn't mean you stop finding people attractive. No, that's not the case at all. So all that's to say, people who come out a little bit later in life as being bisexual after they're married or whatever, it doesn't mean anything about their marriage. Alyssa Scolari [26:37]: It doesn't mean anything at all. People who are bisexual, if they want to get married, well, chances are they're either going to marry a man or a woman or a non-binary person. But just because they marry a non-binary person doesn't mean all of a sudden they're no longer attracted to women. Just because they marry a non-binary person doesn't mean that they're no longer attracted to men. So I hope that makes sense. It has absolutely nothing to do with my marriage. David is the best thing that ever happened to me. I think that the importance of this kind of coming out for me is about claiming or reclaiming who I was when I didn't get the opportunity to be that person. I didn't get the opportunity to come to terms with that when I was younger, but I get to come to terms with it now. And it's really exciting and anxiety provoking. And it just feels like I'm letting the inner child in me have the freedom to label herself however she wants for the first time. And that is a beautiful thing. And that is part of why Pride matters. Alyssa Scolari [28:09]: That is part of why we fight to have equal rights. That is part of why we fight to be seen and heard and respected. So that's why it's taken me a little while to talk about this. I do things at my own paces. I have a lot of respect for myself and my process. And that is why it is not because I haven't cared or acknowledged it. Again, the people who are closest to me know how passionate I am and have always been about the LGBTQ community. And now I understand why, now I understand why. So, with that being said, what can we do? We know that people in the LGBTQ community are experiencing trauma and being denied their rights every single day, still we've come a long way. We have a lot further to go. I just encourage you to get involved and I don't know what that means for you. Maybe that looks like further education and research on this community. Maybe that looks like attending town halls. Alyssa Scolari [29:24]: Maybe that looks like attending parades or marches. Maybe that looks like donating. If you are able to donate, there are some amazing organizations that you can contribute to and they include the Human Rights Campaign, The Trevor Project and the National Center for Trans Equality, just to name a few. I will link those three in the show notes and I am also going to link the two articles that I used in today's episode. You can find all of that in the show notes. I hope that you enjoy today's episode. It was a tough one for me. It's hard to be this vulnerable. I thank you for listening. I thank you for being here. I hope you have a fantastic week and I am holding you in the light. Speaker 2 [30:17]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma, and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. To support our show, we are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

This week brings the final episode in a series of discussions on setting boundaries. Pulling from Nedra Glover Tawwab's book, Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself, this week's discussion centers on the following:  - 6 areas where setting boundaries is necessary - 3 steps to set healthy boundaries  -What to do after setting boundaries -How to manage people's reactions to your boundaries  Order Set Boundaries, Find Peace by Nedra Tawwab Nedra Tawwab's Instagram: @nedratawwab Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma Transcript:   Alyssa Scolari: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast, the full episode this week. I'm your host Alyssa Scolari, and I am so happy to be here for a full episode. If you listened to the mini episode that I put out last week, well, it wasn't even an episode. It was just a brief announcement. My husband and I have been recovering from COVID. We both went all this time without getting it, and then we went to a wedding. One of our really good friends got married, and the wedding was so much fun. But the next day, part of the wedding party had woken up and tested positive for COVID. And then a few days after, David tested positive for COVID, and then I tested positive. Alyssa Scolari: So it was not fun. I will say I am very glad that I have had the privilege of being both vaccinated and boosted, because I do not want to know what COVID would've looked like if I did not have the vaccine. It wasn't scary, but it was almost just like, "Whoa. I can't believe this feels this bad even with the vaccine." It felt like the flu. Thankfully, neither of us had to go to the hospital. Neither of us had any issues with breathing or anything like that. And we are both on the mend. Alyssa Scolari: Today is actually one of the first days that I have my voice back. And my voice might sound a little bit off. I don't know. It doesn't to me. But I had lost my voice and couldn't really work or do anything. So it's been a little relaxing, but also boring, but also just irritating being sick when it was Memorial Day weekend and then it was a really beautiful summer weather. And there was just so many things we wanted to do. And we were supposed to have a house warming party with all of our friends, and we had to cancel that. And it's just been a bummer. Alyssa Scolari: But again, I'm just very happy to be healthy and I'm very thankful that we are both on the mend. So thank you for bearing with me. There was no way I was going to be able to put out an episode, because I was just feverish and had no voice. But we are back with another part, well, another episode on boundaries. So it's like a three part series or a three episode series. I am fairly certain this will be the last one. We're going to see how much we get into today. Alyssa Scolari: But if you have not listened to the other two episodes, you can go back and listen. We are talking about boundaries. And a lot of the information that I am sharing today is going to be based off of Nedra Tawwab's book Set Boundaries, Find Peace. And that is the same book that I used in the previous two episodes. Boundaries, as I've said before and I'll say it again, I believe, are the most important tool for not just healing from trauma, but for honestly just existing and living a peaceful life. Alyssa Scolari: That's more of a personal belief. I think a lot of people would agree with me, honestly. So we're talking about it, because as important as they are, it's also incredibly difficult for us to set them. Alyssa Scolari: So in the first episode that we did about boundaries, we talked a lot about what are they and why are they so important and what types of boundaries exist out there. And then in the second episode, so the episode that went out two weeks ago, we talked about why it is so difficult for us to set boundaries and how we can look past that, how we can push past our fears and our anxieties that come up around setting boundaries. Alyssa Scolari: Today, we are going to get a little bit more into the nitty gritty of how specifically do I do this with the people in my life. All right. So let's get right into it. Alyssa Scolari: So in the first episode that we did, we talked about how there are three different types of boundaries, right? There's rigid, porous, and healthy. Well, in addition to that, there are six different areas in life where it's very important to be able to set boundaries, right? Alyssa Scolari: Now, number one, and this is going to come as no surprise to many people, it's important to set sexual boundaries. That is very important. Now, of course, I should note this. You cannot set sexual boundaries where there is a crime occurring. So a child cannot set a sexual boundary with an adult when there is sexual assault or rape going on or child sexual abuse. Alyssa Scolari: That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about consensual sex. Boundaries are important. Being able to communicate with your partner or partners what you do, like, what you don't like, or even just saying, "No, thank you. I am not in the mood to have sex right now," or even just being able to ask the other person, "Can you tell me what you like? Do you like it when I do this?," right? That is a discussion of, "Hey, what are your boundaries, so that I know what they are, so that I don't cross them?" So sexual boundaries. Alyssa Scolari: Then there are time boundaries. So this is, I think, a huge one for so many people, right? Classic example is the person who is constantly picking up the phone for everybody else, but then, at the end of the day, has no time left over for themselves. Time boundaries. Alyssa Scolari: And then physical boundaries. This, I often think of as even public displays of affections. Some people don't mind. Some people hate it. I'm not a huge PDA person. I don't particularly enjoy it, right? So let's say you're in a relationship with a partner who is always kissing you in front of everyone and always wants to rub your back. It's very important to be able to set those boundaries and say, "Please do not rub my back in public. It makes me uncomfortable." Alyssa Scolari: And other physical boundaries can also just be, even when it comes to children, right, for allowing your child to say when they want to hug somebody and when they don't. Or even as adults, there are times where I will see the same group of friends, and I love them, but I might not necessarily be in the mood for hugging or physical touch. So sometimes, I will hug everybody in the room. Sometimes, I will not. And it's okay. Nobody really bats an eyelash either way, because everybody is cool with respecting one another's boundaries. So those are physical boundaries. Alyssa Scolari: We have sexual, time, physical, and then we have intellectual boundaries. Intellectual boundaries, this can be a little bit more complex. But the best way I can put it is by giving examples. So an intellectual boundary can be crossed with a child if an adult is having an inappropriate conversation with a child, right? If a young child is learning about something sexual before they are ready to hear that, or even in the case of oversharing, right? If parents are fighting and the one parent turns the child and starts venting to the child about the other parent, that is crossing an intellectual boundary. Alyssa Scolari: Now, between adults, this can look a little bit differently. So this can look like belittling people for what their beliefs are, mocking people for their beliefs. I've seen a lot of people mock Christianity. And while I personally do believe that parts of Christianity can be harmful depending on the interpretation of the Bible, because everybody interprets the Bible differently, that's an episode for another time. But a lot of people mock Christianity and they mock Christians, and that can be an intellectual boundary. Or I've seen it reversed. I've seen people who are Christian mock people who have no belief. A lot of people like to mock people who are Jewish. They belittle their faith. Alyssa Scolari: So it happens across the board. Whether you believe in something don't believe in something, no matter what religion you are, this happens. And that is an intellectual boundary violation, as is when people will shut down over disagreements. So let's say that you're in a disagreement with somebody, and let's say you're in a little disagreement over what restaurant you want to go to. And the one person's like, "Oh, I want to go to Applebee's." And the other person's like, "Well, I want to go to Wendy's." And you talk for a little while and you decide, "All right, we're going to Applebee's." Well, you get there and you sit down with the other person and they're completely quiet, and they're on their phone the whole time, and they're not looking at you, and they're making zero communication. They're just completely shut down. That is an example of an intellectual boundary violation. I am denying you the right to have communication with me, to have an intellectual discussion with me, because I'm mad at you. It's a passive aggressive boundary violation. Alyssa Scolari: So there are also emotional boundary violations where people can dismiss your feelings, or people will turn around and spill your secrets. You share something, you share the way you feel with somebody, and then they tell you they're not going to say anything, but then they go home and then they call their friend right away and they tell their friend. And before you know it, half the world knows your secret. Those are emotional boundary violations. Gossip is an emotional boundary violation, things like that. Alyssa Scolari: And then there are material boundary violations. So people going through your journal or destroying your property, or people borrowing your car and not filling it up with gas when they return it to you, or people using your kitchen and making an absolute mess that you have to go clean up, those are material violations. You holding something in your hand and somebody wants to see it, so they just snatch it out of your hand without asking you when that thing belongs to you, that is a material violation. Alyssa Scolari: So those are some of the categories. Well, those are the main categories that boundaries can fall into when it comes to setting them. So let's talk about what it means to set a boundary. Alyssa Scolari: In order to set a boundary, you have to have good communication. And there are four different ways that you can communicate. You can communicate passively, passive aggressively, aggressively, or assertively. Alyssa Scolari: Now, passive communication is you really don't say anything. What passive means is you sit on the feelings and you eat your own feelings and sit with them because you don't want those feelings to come out. So you just keep it to yourself and deal with it and don't say anything. Alyssa Scolari: Passive aggressive is when you do things to get the other person to notice that you are upset, or you try to deny the other person something. You harm the relationship without directly saying exactly what's wrong. We've talked about passive aggressive behaviors in the other two episodes, so we're not going to really get into examples. But I'm pretty sure we all know what passive aggressive behavior is. It's that person who is trying to communicate that something's wrong, but they'll never actually come out and say something's wrong. They will just act in different ways or say different things that let you know that there's an issue. Alyssa Scolari: And then there's aggressive communication, which can be threatening and can involve yelling or cursing, or it can even become physical. Alyssa Scolari: And then there's assertive. This, again, I'm sure is a no brainer. We want the assertive communication. Assertive communication, it's not passive, not passive aggressive. It's not aggressive. It is none of those things. But instead, it is clear, it is firm, and it is unapologetic, and it is also respectful. And that is something that I think people struggle with a lot when they're triggered. It's really, really hard to come across as assertive when they are upset or triggered. I know it is for me, which is why I think taking time, when you're getting ready to set a boundary with somebody, taking time, jotting down, what you want to say, thinking about it, maybe tweaking it a little bit, I think that that is helpful for me when I have to set a boundary, because if not, then my words can come out... Alyssa Scolari: I'm trying to think. I feel like I want to say I could be aggressive, not in a physical way, but probably in a verbal way, because all my emotions flood out of me. So assertive behavior is the way to go. Alyssa Scolari: So how do we do that? Step one is all about your tone and your use of language. So again, it is so important to have a neutral tone. You don't have to be super animated. And I think this is where I struggle, because I'm a little bit more animated. And sometimes, that can come off as aggressive or too much. It is so important to be neutral, but also very, very clear. Alyssa Scolari: And you don't want to have too much jargon. You want to be really, really concise. Some people, because they get so nervous when they're setting boundaries, they tend to just talk and talk and talk. And I absolutely used to do this, right? If somebody asked me if they could borrow my laptop and I didn't want them to, I would say, "Well, I spent a lot of money on this laptop. And in order for me to really feel comfortable giving it away, I have to know what you're going to be doing on it. How long are you going to need it for? If you're going to need it for more than 30 seconds, it's going to be really hard for me, because I have to do this and that." And I would just go on and on and on, as opposed to being straight to the point. Alyssa Scolari: And when you go on and on and you have too much jargon, people might not get it, or people are going to see loopholes. People are going to say, "Okay, well you said this. So if I do this, then can I have the laptop?" So you want to be concise. You want to cut the jargon. You want to have a neutral tone. Alyssa Scolari: And here's the other thing, and this is a hard one for some people. You don't want to say things like, "Maybe," "Kind of," "I don't know," right? This goes into step number two, right? And step number two is directly stating your need. So number one, being clear and neutral and concise. Number two is directly stating your need. And in doing both of those things, we really want to leave out the language that suggests that you could possibly change your mind. I really like to let people down easily. So I am famous for being like, "I don't really think so," or "Not at this time," or, "Unfortunately, it doesn't look like we'll be able to go, or, "Maybe not now. Maybe some other time. I am famous for that, because I don't want to sound mean by setting a boundary. Alyssa Scolari: But here's the thing that I need to remember and that you need to remember, and that is that setting boundaries, it's not a mean thing at all. It is a way to give you the peaceful and happy life that you want. And if somebody can't respect your boundaries, that is a sign that you needed to set those boundaries in the first place. Alyssa Scolari: So I have really been practicing on this one. And I set a boundary with a family member a few months ago. They asked me to go somewhere, and I didn't want to go. I didn't feel comfortable. I didn't feel safe going. And so normally. I would feel the need to be like, "Oh, well, we have plans and we can't go because blah, blah, blah." But instead, I directly said, "Thank you for the offer. We can't make it. Have a good time." Alyssa Scolari: Now, this person did not respect my boundary in the slightest. And this person said some pretty nasty stuff back. But it doesn't matter, because I did what I needed to do to keep myself safe. And quite frankly, this person reacting the way they did was really no surprise, because I needed to set that boundary a long time ago. Alyssa Scolari: So let's go into a few more examples. How about somebody, the person in your family who's constantly talking about weight and in front of you, right? You go out to dinner with somebody and they're like, "Oh, I got to get back to it tomorrow. And Monday, I'm going to step on the scale again." You can say something like, "I feel uncomfortable when you talk about weight. Please stop." Alyssa Scolari: Let's say you have a roommate or a friend or even a child who borrows your car, and they come back and they never have the tank filled up. You can say, "I need you to fill my car up with gas after you use it." That's it. You're not even asking, right? You don't even want to ask, because then you give people the option of saying no. Some people will try to set boundaries by being like ... And by some people, I totally mean me, right? Some people will be like, "Oh, well, do you think that you could please fill up my car with gas?" You give them the option to say no. There should not be an option to say no when it comes to you setting a boundary for yourself. You are directly stating your need or your request, or you're directly saying no. Alyssa Scolari: So again, this might sound harsh, especially for those of us who struggle with setting these, but these tools are life saving. And you have to remember and tell yourself over and over and over again that you are not being mean. Alyssa Scolari: Let's say you have a family member who loves to talk. Let's say your mom. Let's say your mom. Let's say you have a brother, and your mom loves to talk to you and gossip to you about your brother. Your mom's always complaining about your brother, your brother this, your brother that, "Your brother never comes around anymore. I haven't seen your brother in weeks," things like that. And you don't want to hear it anymore. All you have to say is, "Mom, I really don't like it when you talk to me about my brother. Please stop." And that's it. That is it. You are not at all being mean when you say those things. Alyssa Scolari: The biggest fear here, when you make a request, when you say no, when you state a need, the biggest fear is in how people are going to respond, which is why step three is dealing with the emotions that come after setting the boundary, whether that be guilt, whether that be anxiety, whether that be fear or awkwardness or discomfort. Alyssa Scolari: And Nedra makes a really good point in her book Set Boundaries, Find Peace. She makes a really good point of saying, "It's almost impossible to set boundaries without guilt, because we live in a society that has just set us up to feel like we need to give of ourselves all the time, because when we give of ourselves, we have nothing left over for us. And therefore we get sicker, and therefore this world profits off of us. So it really is like a win-win situation for the world that we live in for us to not have boundaries." Alyssa Scolari: So in a society that teaches us that boundaries are mean, it's not really likely that you're going to be able to set them without guilt. I have yet to set a boundary without feeling some level of guilt, and I always have to work through it. Guilt, awkwardness, fear, discomfort, it's so important to work through that. And how do you do that? By telling yourself a lot of what we're talking about, by reminding yourself of what we are talking about here today. Alyssa Scolari: Another thing that really helps for me is to talk to my therapist about it, because my therapist is really good at reassuring me. So talk, if it's not to your therapist, talk to somebody else who really understands boundaries and who gets it. But for the love of God, please don't talk to somebody who isn't good with boundaries, because if you do that, you're only going to feel worse. I would make the mistake all the time of talking to somebody. Alyssa Scolari: I would set a boundary with somebody, and I'd feel really guilty. So I'd pick up the phone and call somebody who also was terrible at setting boundaries. And then they would be like, "Oh, well, why did you do that? That sounded a little bit mean." And then I would feel horrible and I would backtrack in my boundary setting. Alyssa Scolari: So think about if it's bringing stuff up from childhood. Talk to your therapist about it. Ask yourself, "What does this mean about me? Where is this coming from? Did I get yelled at when I was younger for setting boundaries? Was I allowed to have boundaries when I was younger?" For a lot of us, this boundary work is childhood trauma recovery, because a lot of us wouldn't know a boundary if we fell over it when we were younger. The majority of us have had our boundaries violated over and over again as children. So it's so important to seek support when you are setting boundaries. Alyssa Scolari: If the boundary ruins the relationship, I hate to say this, but the relationship was doomed anyway. It really was. I have set so many boundaries, especially this past year. And in some cases, those boundaries have worked out just fine and I've gotten through it. And in other cases, those boundaries ruined the relationship. And you know what? I'm not even surprised, because that relationship was doomed anyway. The important thing is to not assume that it's your fault. Alyssa Scolari: But here's the thing. Don't assume that people in general aren't going to honor your boundaries. Go into this with the attitude that, "Why wouldn't people respect my boundaries?" Assume people are going to honor your boundaries and act normally, because when you start assuming people are going to behave weirdly, then you almost set yourself up for another self-fulfilling prophecy. And we've talked about self-fulfilling prophecies in a previous episode. You set yourself up to then you almost end up making the situation uncomfortable, because you think it's going to be awkward. So then you bring a level of awkwardness to it. So then it is awkward. Alyssa Scolari: So don't go into it assuming anything. If anything, try to go into setting boundaries completely detached from how people are going to react. Try to detach yourself. Try to not take any kind of responsibility or even give a whole lot of energy to people's reactions, because if you do keep giving energy to it, it's going to make you not want to set the boundary. And then it's going to just keep you in a relationship that isn't fully serving you. So try not to be so tied to the way other people are going to react, because you're not setting this boundary to see somebody's reaction. You're setting this boundary so that you can feel safer in the relationship. So you don't need to give your energy to how people are going to react. Easier said than done, I know. Alyssa Scolari: But it's also important to just be okay with how people react. Like I said, it's not personal. Their reactions, their emotions, they're entitled to. They're entitled to all of it. Everybody's entitled to their opinion. Everybody. But it doesn't mean that their emotions are or opinions is something that you need to take on. Alyssa Scolari: Now, when you set a boundary, it is so important, because honestly, setting the boundary, just setting it, I hate to say this, but that's actually one of the easier things to do when it comes to boundary work, setting it first. All right. Great. You did it. The real hard work comes in in upholding the boundary. You need to religiously uphold your boundary, right? Alyssa Scolari: If you have a friend that's like, "Hey, can you come out tonight?" "No, thank you. I want to stay inside tonight. I'm not really in the mood to go out." Your friend's like, "Are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure?" You need to say no time and time and time again. Or in the case of a friend who is borrowing your car, when you say, "I need you to fill the car up with gas when you return it to me," let's say this person says, "Okay. No problem." They borrow the car the next week. They bring the car back, and there's no gas in it. Do you let it go? No. Not even just for one time do you let it go, because, remember, people thrive off of you not having boundaries. If you give people an inch, they will take it a mile. That is just human nature. It doesn't mean they don't love you. It's just human nature. So if you set a boundary and somebody violates that boundary even one time, you need to call it out immediately. Alyssa Scolari: You try not to take it personally, right? Because for a lot of people, boundary violations, it's not about you. It could be about other people living out some other childhood stuff, right? Testing limits, kids love to test limits. So do adults. We never grow out of that. It's not personal. But it is your responsibility to religiously uphold that boundary. Alyssa Scolari: "Hey, Mom. I know I told you last week when we talked on the phone that I don't want to hear you talking about my brother anymore. I have to ask you again to please stop." Now, if that person still doesn't respect that, "Hey, friend. I asked you when we were at dinner last week to please refrain from talking about weight. It makes me uncomfortable. I also asked you two weeks ago. And you're still doing this." Alyssa Scolari: Well, now, what do you do? Well, now, you kind of ... Not kind of, right? There I go again with my indirect language. You put in a consequence, not necessarily punitive, right? Not really punitive sounding, but a consequence that's going to protect you. "Jim, if you return my car again and the gas tank isn't full, I'm not going to let you take my car anymore," "If you continue to talk to me about my brother while we're on the phone, Mom, I'm going to hang up the phone. And that will be the end of our conversation," "If, Susie, you continue to talk to me about weight while we're out to dinner, I'm going to get up and leave the restaurant." That is when you bring those consequences in. Alyssa Scolari: And again, you have to reinforce them and uphold them. That is one of the hardest parts about boundaries, because people might say yeah when you set that boundary the first time, but people almost always love to test limits in some way, shape, or form. Not everybody. Alyssa Scolari: So that is where we are at. If somebody's not respecting your boundary, you have to call it out, "I asked you to do this. You are not doing it. And if you continue to not do that, this is what's going to happen." People might react in all different ways, right? People might get defensive. They might start questioning you. They're going to test the limits. People might be passive aggressive. They might ghost you. They might give you the silent treatment or just give you very short responses. And again, it's so important to remember that their reaction is not about you. It is never about you. Alyssa Scolari: Ultimately, boundaries can solve a lot of relationship problems, but both people have to be open to listening and meeting the other person's each other's requests, really. If that's the case, then boundaries can be so beneficial in relationships. Alyssa Scolari: Again, right, Brene Brown has said it best. The temporary discomfort that you experience from setting boundaries is so much better than the long term resentment that will come from not setting them. Alyssa Scolari: So with that said, that wraps up our boundary talk. I'm so excited. I thought that was really, really good and really fun to talk about. And I hope that it is so helpful. It's really helpful for me, really helpful. And I'm very happy to be back and recording. I've got some other good episodes this month. Alyssa Scolari: It is Pride Month. I didn't say that in the beginning of the episode, but happy Pride Month. I hope it's a great Pride Month for everybody. Alyssa Scolari: And I hope that everybody is doing okay. I know that if you are living in the United States, you are probably devastated and still healing from learning of the shooting in Texas of the school children and teachers. I'm just speechless. And I'm at a loss for words. And I feel helpless and hopeless. And it feels like the only thing that I can do is donate money and vote when it comes time. But I don't know. I just feel really hopeless living in this country right now. And there's a big part of me that wants to move. And the gun violence just terrifies me and I'm terrified for the future children of this world. And I could go on. I could go on. I just have a lot of anxiety and a lot of grief. And my heart is so heavy, and I'm so angry. And I know so many of us feel this way. Alyssa Scolari: So I'm with you. We stand together, and we will hold each other up. And thoughts and prayers don't really do anything for those victims. Thoughts and prayers aren't doing it anymore for the continued mass shootings in this country. It's just heinous. I don't know what the answer is, but I know I will be voting and I will be donating to who I can. And if there's anything else that anybody can think that we can do to help or that I can do to help, please let me know. You know where to find me. Alyssa Scolari: And if you don't know where to find me, it's on Instagram, or you can go to the website, which is LightAfterTrauma.com. And the Instagram handle for the podcast is Light After Trauma. We've got some good content on there, so come check us out. If you message me, I will respond to you directly, because I do get the messages. So, yeah. Come say hi. Alyssa Scolari: I hope you enjoyed this episode. I will be back next week with another episode. And until then, I am holding you in the light. Alyssa Scolari: Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to LightAfterTrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @LightAfterTrauma, and on Twitter, it is @LightAfterPod. Alyssa Scolari: Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/LightAfterTrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/LightAfterTrauma. Thank you, and we appreciate your support. Speaker 2: (Singing).

This week was scheduled to be another episode in the series on setting boundaries, however, Covid seemed to have other plans.    Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma   Transcript:   Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Light After Trauma podcast. Although we do not have an episode for you today. I am so sorry. I know we were supposed to continue the conversation about boundaries and I had some great things to share with you, but David and I partied a little too hard this weekend and by partied, I mean, we had a wedding. One of our closest friends got married and it was the best time ever, but we both got COVID. So we have been sick and I have not been up for recording a full length episode. We are recovering, we made it all this time without getting COVID and now we have it. Luckily so far, our symptoms are pretty mild, so it's nothing too bad, but we are just resting and recovering. So there will be no episode today, but I will be back next week, hopefully better than ever excited to talk to you some more about boundaries. So take good care. I hope you have a wonderful week and I am holding you in the light.

In this week's episode, Alyssa continues the important discussion from last week surrounding boundaries. Pulling from Nedra Glover Tawwab's book, Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself, this week's discussion centers on the following:  Different ways people might react to setting boundaries Why we are often afraid to set boundaries How we can push past our fears around setting boundaries  Nedra Tawwab's Instagram: @nedratawwab Order Set Boundaries, Find Peace — Nedra Tawwab   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma   Transcript:   Alyssa Scolari [00:00]: Hey everybody, what's up? Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host Alyssa Scolari, talking about boundaries today. This is the part two of a series that we are doing on boundaries. In the first episode, which if you haven't listened to, I highly recommend you go back and check that out. In that first episode, we talked about what are boundaries and why do we need them, why are they so important. We also talked about the different types of boundaries: porous, rigid, and healthy. And we also talked about some of the biggest areas in which people tend to struggle with boundaries the most. Alyssa Scolari [01:08]: As I mentioned in last week's episode, so much of this information is taken from a book that I highly recommend. It is called Set Boundaries, Find Peace by Nedra Tawwab, and you can also listen to it on Audible if you're not a big reader and you'd rather listen. I listen to the book on Audible. You can go look in the show notes, if you want access to the book, or if you want to follow Nedra on Instagram. She's absolutely amazing therapist and does awesome work with boundaries. And I said this last week, but it is worth repeating, I personally believe that boundaries are the most important tool that you can have with you, not just for healing from trauma, but throughout your entire life. Alyssa Scolari [01:58]: That being said, I also personally believe it's one of the hardest things to do, and it brings up a lot of feelings for people. I feel like I should probably say that. It's really, really hard, particularly for survivors of trauma who have been taught that our needs don't matter. And again, I speak about all of this in the last week's episode, so feel free to go and check that out if you haven't already. That being said, if you haven't listened to it, I don't think that you necessarily do need to listen to it in order to benefit from this episode. I think you can kind of just dive right in today with the rest of us. Alyssa Scolari [02:39]: So just some housekeeping things. I actually know, I started off last week's episode by talking about how I had gone no contact with my family. I know that I've been talking for the last couple of weeks about how I've been struggling a lot with depression, and then some things happened and I went no contact with my family and just wanted to follow up and say that I am hanging in there. I'm doing all right. I think that I'm better than I've been in a long time. I'm taking space and time to grieve and to give myself grace. But overall, I think I am better than I've been in a really long time. So feeling good, feeling energized, excited to be out of that depressive funk. It was awful. So really excited to be out of that, really excited to just have a new kind of zest for life. Alyssa Scolari [03:44]: It's been really hot here where I live, so I've been staying hydrated, trying to stay cool, but I've also gotten a chance to really enjoy the outdoors. I've been posting pictures on my Instagram, so if you have an Instagram and you want to go check it out, my Instagram is Light After Trauma. And our backyard is looking amazing. We have been building it into this little like oasis and we have tons of plants with really bright, happy flowers. And then we made this giant... Well, not giant, but we made this patio space and we have a little waterfall and we got a fire pit and we got furniture. And then we got string lights that hang above the patio. So at night, you sit out there with a fire on and the sounds of the waterfall and the beautiful lights, and it is just dreamy. It is so dreamy. Alyssa Scolari [04:45]: I have been having the most fun with David making our backyard the perfect oasis. We have a very small yard. I, by no means, want to come across as acting like we have this giant yard because we really don't. It's super tiny, but we have absolutely made the most of the space, and I just couldn't be more thrilled. So I highly recommend that you go check it out. I mean, if you're into that sort of thing. Alyssa Scolari [05:15]: So that's been really fun. And then on the EMDR front, because I have not given anyone an EMDR update in a while. So those of you who might remember, a few months ago, I had told you that I was getting ready to start EMDR. And if that is a new word or a new acronym for you, I do an episode with LCSW Melissa Parks on the podcast, that you can go check it out and see what EMDR is. It is a treatment for trauma, and it's supposed to be a highly effective treatment for trauma, one in which you aren't necessarily required to talk about your memories bit by bit. And it really, as far as I understand, helps to rewire your brain. I have heard from so many people that EMDR is absolutely life changing and I am starting it for myself. And if I love it and I feel that it's really effective and really great, I am going to go ahead and then get trained in it for my clients. Alyssa Scolari [06:19]: Speaking of which, I am accepting new clients right now. So if you are living in the states of Florida or New Jersey, and soon to be Massachusetts, feel free, you can reach out to me. If you are interested in working together, or if you know anybody who needs therapy, feel free to reach out. I'd love to work with you. I'm excited to finally be accepting new clients, but I digress. Alyssa Scolari [06:44]: So back to the EMDR, I had started with a guy a couple of months ago at this point, I want to say like March and he kept... Well, first of all, he didn't show up for our second appointment. But aside from that, he kept messing up the times of our appointments. He would text me and say, “Hey, what time are we meeting?” Like, several times. Once in a while, of course, whatever, all therapists are human, but this was several times right out of the gate when we started working together. And it was starting to stir up some abandonment stuff in me, because I'm like, why doesn't this person care enough to write down when we're meeting? So I ended my treatment with that person and I was really proud of myself because I didn't just ghost. It's easier, I think in some ways to ghost, but I actually stated very clearly what my issue was. So I was really proud of myself for doing that. And then I found another therapist that I met with and it just wasn't a good match at all. Alyssa Scolari [07:57]: This therapist had said something that I found offensive, and I tried to give that person the benefit of the doubt. But then as the session went on, this person wasn't necessarily fully listening to my answers to the questions that I was being asked. They would ask me a question, but then as I would answer it, they would be not even looking at me, on another computer, typing out the answer to the previous question. So then they would get done typing, I've already answered their next question, and then they would look at me and be like, “Oh, what'd you say again?” And I was like, “Ooh, ooh, I don't... I don't like this.” It just didn't feel good. It's a personal preference. I don't like when somebody's looking at a computer screen the whole time when I'm sharing intimate details of my trauma. I don't like it. It makes me feel unsafe. Alyssa Scolari [08:58]: So I found somebody new and I met with this new person on last week, I don't know, one day, but I absolutely loved her. There were no red flags for me. I felt comfortable and I'm really looking forward to working with this person. So I am really hoping that it works out. And honestly, this just goes to show you that you are allowed to be super picky when it comes to a therapist. I know I've done episodes like this in the past, but I just want to reiterate, you can and should be picky with your therapist. Do not settle. If there's something in you, that's like, “Hey, this isn't quite right.” You have to go with that feeling. And because I went with those feelings in my gut, I have now found somebody who I think is going to be a really, really good fit for me. Alyssa Scolari [09:53]: So I'm really excited about that. So I will keep you all posted. I haven't officially gotten into the EMDR stuff yet, but I will let you know how that process goes. It's supposed to be really difficult and really tiring. It gets a lot worse before it gets better, but I'm really looking forward to it nonetheless. So I will keep you all posted. Alyssa Scolari [10:16]: Okay. So getting right back into it today, we are talking more about boundaries and just some more information why people don't set boundaries, what the fear is around setting boundaries, and how to appropriately deal with that fear. As I talked about in the last week's episode, there are so many reasons why we need boundaries. And people experiencing burnout and stress and conflict in their relationships, they are just a few of the many, many reasons. One thing that I did not mention last week is we talk about burnout and how burnout is a direct... Well, not always direct, but it is more often than not, a sign of having poor boundaries. And one of the places where people tend to experience burnout and difficulty with boundaries in general is in the work field, the workforce, particularly when we talk about doctors. Alyssa Scolari [11:24]: So according to Nedra Tawwab in her book Set Boundaries, Find Peace, burnout from doctors and surgeons costs this country $4.6 billion a year, $4.6 billion. How does that happen? You might be asking, how does burnout cost money? Well, it cost money because as a result of burnout, doctors are making medical mistakes and misdiagnoses that will then go on to cost, whether in the form of having to redo tests or rewrite prescriptions, or even in the form of lawsuits. It will cost $4.6 billion. So there is no question here like, are boundaries important? Can we live without them? We can't. We ultimately can't live a healthy life without them, quite literally. It can cost some people their lives. It can cost some people their careers. It can cost people their relationships. Alyssa Scolari [12:36]: Boundaries are really uncomfortable to set. They are really, really scary. But as Brené Brown has once said, and this is also taken directly from Nedra's book, “Sometimes we need to choose that temporary discomfort over eventual long term resentment.” So yes, boundaries will create this temporary discomfort, but it's preferred over this long term resentment where you start to resent your job, or you start to resent your partner, or you start to resent your friend or whatever it may be. The short term discomfort is much more desired, quite honestly, and experiencing that temporary discomfort is only one of the many reasons in which for why people are afraid to set boundaries. There are other reasons that people are afraid of setting boundaries. And one of those reasons is like, I have a fear of being rejected. This one is definitely true for me. I think that I am afraid of every reason for not setting boundaries that you could possibly have. Like, I have all of them. Fear of rejection or possible abandonment. Is this person going to leave me? Is this person going to reject me? Are they going to walk away from me? Alyssa Scolari [14:03]: Another reason is assuming it's not going to work, “Ah, it's not going to work. You don't know this person.” I often get this response. When I talk about setting boundaries with people, I often will get this like, “Ah, you don't know this person.” Like, they've been stuck in their ways for years and there's no use in asking them to change now. It's not going to be effective. I personally think that that's a cop out. I really do. Because you can't predict how somebody's going to react, and you can say that they're not going to change, but ultimately you don't know unless you start reinforcing that boundary. Alyssa Scolari [14:51]: So I sort of think that this one is a little bit of a cop out. Like I can see that this is a genuine reason why, and I too have said to... You know, I have found myself saying to my therapist like, “Oh, you know, this person's never going to change. There's no point in trying to set a boundary.” And honestly, when I look back at it, I'm like, that was such a cop out. I just was afraid. I was just afraid. Alyssa Scolari [15:14]: So that is another reason. An additional reason is you get your value from helping others. This is going to ring true for my people pleasers out there. If you get your value from helping others, we need to look at that. We need to reevaluate. I find this to be true with so many folks, especially those who didn't get their needs met in childhood. We have been taught that it is our job to serve others, to be there for others. And eventually, we learn that our worth lies in what we can do for other people. If you get your value from helping other people, it's definitely something to look at. That's not to say that you shouldn't enjoy helping others. You can, but when you get to a point where you feel like you're not good enough, as long as you are not helping somebody, then we've got to talk about that because you are worthy just as you are. You're worth does not depend on what you do. Alyssa Scolari [16:23]: Another reason people don't set boundaries is because they feel mean doing it. They feel like people are mean, or they feel like what they're doing is going to be mean. It could be that they feel like other people are mean, but that kind of falls under the same category as rejection. This is more like, you know, I feel like I'm being mean by saying, “Hey, I can't pick up the phone right now. I know it's 10:00 o'clock. I know you're having a panic attack. I'm sorry, I can't pick up the phone.” That is so hard to do, and I completely understand why it feels mean. I too have been there. Being a therapist, people will reach out to me for advice all of the time. Well, a little less so now, because my boundaries are so much better. Alyssa Scolari [17:12]: But I remember one time, I had a friend who was in a very abusive relationship, and this person would call me all the time or text me all the time and ask me for advice, for support, or help. Would even ask me to talk to their partner. Like, “Hey, please talk to this person, please. You know, you're a therapist, please try to knock some sense into this person.” And you know what? Back then, years ago, I felt like I had to. When this person would text me at 10:00 o'clock at night, telling me that they had to leave the house because their partner was throwing an abusive fit, I felt like I had to pick up the phone and talk. When this person would say, “Hey, can you please talk to my partner? My partner really needs help, they're being abusive.” I felt like I had to. I would pick up the phone, I would talk to my friend, I would talk to their partner. I would quite literally be doing like couples therapy things, which I should have never done. Alyssa Scolari [18:18]: Again, I wasn't really doing therapy, but it was just like, I was giving advice. I was filling a role that they should have had a therapist fill. And I started to feel a lot of resentment. I started to feel like I was only useful to this person so long as I was giving them some kind of advice on what they can do with their partner. And guess what? That person never took any of my advice, never, ever took any of my advice. Over time, I started to feel a ton of resentment, but I could not set that boundary because I felt mean. I felt mean. Eventually, the level of resentment that I had outweighed any fear I had of being mean and I finally set that boundary and was like, “Hey, I can't do this. You know, I've been doing my best, but like, I can't. I'm burnt out, I'm spent.” And you know what? I felt really mean doing it and guess what? That person, we don't actually talk anymore. But the reason we don't talk isn't because I was mean. Setting limits for yourself is not a mean thing. Alyssa Scolari [19:33]: As I said in last week's episode, you have to set those limits because people thrive off of you not setting boundaries. People love that because then you give and give and give, but nobody can look out for you more than you have to look out for you. Saying no is not mean. And oftentimes, we can kind of trace this back to our childhoods, where we are taught that other people's needs matter more than ours. I know that's certainly the case for me. Therefore, I felt like I couldn't tell anybody no, and I know that's the case for many trauma survivors. Alyssa Scolari [20:15]: That being said, this is much easier said than done, but it is not mean to set boundaries. It's important to remember, and this is also a brilliant little nugget of wisdom from Nedra's book. People are only going to treat you as well as you treat yourself. So if you're not having good boundaries, if you're not taking care of yourself, other people are not going to treat you that well either. In the case of this friend that I was talking about, I wasn't treating myself well. I was picking up the phone in the middle of the night. I was talking to this person for hours on end, knowing that this person never once sort of like returned in the favor and never once said, “Oh, hey, you know, tell me about you.” I wasn't taking good care of myself. And because I wasn't, because I didn't say how I felt or call things out right from the get-go, I kind of opened the door to let this person take full advantage of me essentially. Alyssa Scolari [21:23]: And then one of the other ways that I think that causes people, or one of the other things that I think causes people to not set boundaries, and I can't quite remember if this got talked about in the book, I'm sure it did, but this is something that I've noticed a lot just simply within myself or within my practice or just my day to day life is that a lot of people assume that other people should already know something. A lot of people say like, “Oh, well, it's common sense.” Like common sense would tell you, especially a lot of maybe business owners or really anybody. Let's say you're out to dinner on a Friday night with your friends and your friend keeps getting this call from her boss, “Oh, my boss keeps calling me. My boss keeps calling me.” And the friend gets frustrated and she's like, “Well, common sense would tell my boss not to call me on a Friday night when I'm off the clock.” A lot of people often do this with children too. “Common sense should tell my teenager not to ride their bike on a busy highway.” Alyssa Scolari [22:35]: But the thing we have to remember is that common sense isn't common. Common sense is very much dependent on how you grew up, the messages that you were raised with. There really is no such thing as common sense. Common sense isn't common to people. And we can't assume that other people can read our minds, and I think that's where a lot of us get tripped up, including myself. I see this especially happening with partners and relationships. I will do this to David. I'll be like, well, common sense should tell him when I'm upset if I had a really long day at work. Alyssa Scolari [23:13]: The other day I came home and I was really hurting over all this stuff with my family, and I came home pretty late and he is home and he gets ready to go outside and start doing a project in the backyard. And in my head, I'm getting so mad at him and I'm feeling abandoned because I'm like, “Dude, common sense would tell you, like I worked literally all day. I'm so upset. You know I'm so upset. Like, common sense would tell you that I actually really need you to sit with me tonight and just like be with me.” But again, common sense isn't common. It means nothing because when my husband is upset, what he likes to do is get lost in a project. So common sense for him is to start doing a project, start trying to work through some of these emotions by building something or working on something outside or taking care of the garden. That's common sense for him. Alyssa Scolari [24:22]: So it's different. We cannot assume that other people can read our minds. It was unfair of me to assume that he can read my mind. I never once said, “I really need you.” I wanted him to just know, but that was the part of me that was wanting a parent. That was that childish yearning in me. Like, I just need a parent to simply know what my needs are. So something that's very important to keep in mind. Alyssa Scolari [24:54]: Now, in terms of how people might react to boundaries. There's really no way of knowing for sure, but there are a couple different ways according to Nedra Tawwab's book, Set, Boundaries, Find Peace, that we can categorize people's reactions to boundaries. Now, people might get defensive. I think if you've been in this relationship for a long time, it's very likely that somebody might get defensive and be like, “Well, where is this coming from?” Or they try to justify their behavior and they try to convince you that their behavior's okay. So that could be one way people might react to you setting boundaries. Alyssa Scolari [25:36]: People might question your boundaries. People might have a lot of questions, well, again, “Why is this coming up right now? Like, why? I've been doing this for years with you? This is the relationship we've had for years. Like, why do we have to change it now?” People will also test the limits. You bet they will. It's in our human nature. Our human nature is to rebel, is to test the limits. Nobody likes to be told no. I get it. I hate being told no. Part of the reason why setting boundaries is so hard for me is because I know I don't like to be told no. It's really difficult for me. So people are going to test the limits. It is something that absolutely is to be expected. Alyssa Scolari [26:28]: People also might engage in passive-aggressive behaviors, like ghosting. Ghosting is when people just stop responding to you. So you set a boundary and then you don't hear from this person at all. They don't talk to you. I have this happen frequently within my workspace. That actually happened twice over the last week. It doesn't happen often. It always isn't often that I have to kind of set firm boundaries. I do, of course, but these boundaries that I had to set were really, really difficult and really firm. And as a result, I was ghosted and it's okay, it happens. It's part of how people respond and react in treatment and in the world. Therapy is literally like a little microcosm of how people behave in the world. I set a boundary, I was ghosted. That's one passive-aggressive behavior that people do in response to boundaries. Alyssa Scolari [27:45]: Another passive-aggressive behavior is the silent treatment. So very short responses, especially if you live with this person or even maybe through text. This person once used emojis to talk to you and exclamation points, but now all of a sudden, they're responding with like, “Yes, no, okay, good night.” I see this happen so often, especially in my teens who are in relationships with other people or with our best friends. They get mad at their best friend and instead of saying how they feel, they'll be like, “K.” Send. That's the text. And it is well known in the teen world that when you write K. and you send that text, that means that you are really pissed off, but that is a passive-aggressive behavior. That is considered the silent treatment. You know, this person doesn't answer for days, whatever it might be, it's passive-aggressive. Alyssa Scolari [28:50]: And then another thing that I see that often can be very passive-aggressive is people sort of throwing your boundary in your face a little bit. So people will say things like, “Oh, well, I was going to ask you to come out with us.” Okay, let's say, for example, you don't want to drink and you have a friend who is always pressuring you to drink. Whenever you go out, they're like, “Hey, come on, have a drink, have a drink.” And you're like, “No, no, no, no, no. I really don't want to.” And it makes you uncomfortable. So let's say after a few months of this, or a few weeks of this even, you go and you set a boundary with this person and you're like, you know, “Hey, I really don't appreciate it when you keep pressuring me to drink when we are out in public. You know I don't like to drink. Please do not pressure me anymore. If you continue to pressure me, I'm just going to leave, so I am not sitting there feeling uncomfortable.” And this friend's like, “Okay, all right, sure. I get it.” Alyssa Scolari [30:03]: And then the next week later, let's say, it's the weekend, you log onto Instagram and you see that this friend is out with a bunch of other people, a bunch of your mutual friends, and you did not get invited. So you go to this friend and you say, you know, “Hey, why didn't you invite me?” And this friend goes, “Oh, well, you don't like to drink and you didn't want to feel pressured so I just figured I wouldn't put you in that situation.” That is so passive-aggressive. When people use your boundary against you, it is so passive-aggressive. This is something that was done to me all the time, all the time when I was younger and even in my earlier adulthood. To this day, even talking about it, it just drives me nuts. Alyssa Scolari [30:58]: The other thing is like all of these responses and reactions that people have, they're really difficult. It kind of seems like, “Okay, well, why am I setting this boundary in the first place?” If people can react in all types of bad ways, you have to remember that you setting a boundary is for your peace. It's about peace for you. It's about health for you. You can't control how other people react. In fact, if somebody reacts in a negative way, that is likely a sign that you needed to set that boundary in the first place. And it's so important to remember that other people's reactions are not about you. The way that other people respond to boundaries has nothing to do with you. The fact of the matter is that boundaries can solve a lot of relationship problems, but they can only be solved if both people are open to listening and meeting the other's requests. Alyssa Scolari [32:11]: Now, I do also want to say this, relationships where boundaries are extremely difficult is where there is abuse happening or abuse that happened. It is so difficult to set boundaries where abuse took place, because it's the ultimate violation. It is the ultimate violation. So it sort of feels like a little bit strange for somebody to kind of violate you, especially if it's like physical abuse, sexual abuse, continued emotional abuse. This person has violated you in some of the worst ways. It's very hard to build boundaries after that. I'm not saying that it can't be done. It absolutely can be. I've seen it be done. I've seen loads of people where there's been some sort of tragedy or trauma or abuse, and then people have rebuilt that relationship and have had really good boundaries, but it's extremely difficult. Alyssa Scolari [33:17]: And I wouldn't recommend trying it without the help of a therapist. I really wouldn't because we just don't know. We just don't know what's going to happen. You don't know what's going to come up for you. So I really don't recommend trying it without the help of a licensed professional who can support you in this process and who can help you to see if boundaries are even possible. Because the thought of setting boundaries with somebody who was abusive, it can bring up so much. And depending on how that person reacts, it could potentially open the door for further traumatization. Again, I'm not saying always, but I do think it's something that we must keep in mind when it comes to boundary setting, is that it's sort of a whole different ball game when you're dealing with somebody who has been, or is abusive. Alyssa Scolari [34:11]: All in all, this is what we are working with right now. We know what boundaries are, we understand why they're important. Now, we understand why people are so afraid to set them. We understand how people might react. The worst case scenario is that this relationship is over. That is the worst case scenario. I am not going to sit here and say that, that never happens because it does. And it has happened to me multiple times where I've tried to set a boundary and the relationship has been over as the result. It does happen. It doesn't happen all the time. I think that you would be surprised at how well people are able to respect your boundaries when you start setting them. People will respect you more because they see that you respect yourself more. People see that they have no choice, but to respect you. And that is going to help you live the most beautiful, most peaceful life. Alyssa Scolari [35:22]: If somebody leaves because you have set a boundary, it's heartbreaking, it's devastating, but that too is temporary. And it is better than the long term resentment and anger that you will deal with by not setting the boundaries and by feeling like other people are walking all over you. Again, this is truly one of the hardest things I believe, but it truly is the key for living a good life. And that is what we want, baby. That is what we want. Alyssa Scolari [36:05]: So that is a wrap for today. We are still going to keep talking about this because we've got a lot more to talk about. Again, the majority of this information is taken from Nedra Tawwab's Set Boundaries, Find Peace. So it's a really good read. If you want to read it, you can go check out the show notes. Everything that you need is in the show notes for today. I hope that you all have a wonderful week. I will see you next week. And until then, I will be holding you in the light. Alyssa Scolari [36:35]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma. And on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over, again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

This week on the podcast Alyssa discusses a brand new, multi-episode topic. Pulling from Nedra Glover Tawwab's book, Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself, Alyssa discusses what boundaries are, why we need them, and some of the most prominent areas in which people struggle to set boundaries.  Nedra Tawwab's Instagram: @nedratawwab Order Set Boundaries, Find Peace by Nedra Tawwab   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma   Transcript: Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hi everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari. Glad to be back here today. We are talking about boundaries which is in my opinion, one of the most important tools too, and not just healing, but also one of the most important tools that you can use in your everyday life as you go throughout your entire life. You need boundaries all of the time. Alyssa Scolari [00:50]: So before we get into that, just a few housekeeping things. If I have not gotten back to you yet, I know a few of you have reached out to me on Patreon. If I haven't gotten back to you yet, please forgive me. It's been a little bit hectic. I know that in the last episode, I talked about how I have really been struggling with depression. And at the time that I recorded that episode, I was saying like, "I just don't know why I feel this way, and I have done absolutely everything I can do to try to make myself feel better. I've tried to take care of myself to the best of my ability, and yet still, here I am so depressed." Alyssa Scolari [01:31]: Now in the time between when I recorded that episode, and when I am recording this episode, I have a lot more insight into why I was feeling the way that I was feeling. I thought that I understood maybe a part of why I was feeling really depressed with the anniversary of my mom getting really sick, but now that I've ... Well, I should say now that certain events in my life have unfolded, I can confidently say that I know more about why I was feeling so depressed, and I think that emphasizes the importance of hanging in there and riding the wave even if you don't understand what's happening because sometimes we don't understand what's happening, but it's important to hang in there anyway because I am on the mend. Alyssa Scolari [02:24]: Well, somewhat. I will continue to get better, and I now understand that I was gearing up for a goodbye. And I'm just going to briefly touch on what has happened. I will more than likely do an episode where I go into a little bit more depth about it, but I don't know for sure yet, I'm still trying to process what happened. And I'm still trying to grieve and figure out for myself what life is going to look like now because this truly was the hardest decision that I have ever made in my life. Alyssa Scolari [03:09]: I have made the decision to go no contact with my family and briefly, I had a falling out with my brother shortly after I recorded last week's episode. And due to the falling out with my brother, I terminated that relationship because I realized that it was not healthy for me at all, and hasn't been healthy for me for probably 30 years. And so I terminated that relationship. And as a result of terminating that relationship, my mother and I had a falling out about that. And it was really at that point that I knew for me that these relationships aren't going to work in my life no matter how much I wish that they would. Alyssa Scolari [04:12]: So I realize that it's time, it's time to walk away, it's time to say goodbye. It's time to step back from all of this, and as much as it hurt me, I don't question whether or not I did the right thing. I know that I have done the right thing. I don't question that because it was so harmful for me to continue in relationships where I can't be my authentic self, and so I had to walk away and it's ironic I think that this episode, we are talking about boundaries because this was a result. Alyssa Scolari [04:57]: This incident was a result of me trying to set boundary after boundary that just wasn't working and when it comes to family conflict or any kind of conflict, going no contact like right now, I think we are really in cut you off culture. "Well, you're not doing things my way, so I'm just going to cut you off." And a lot of people do that and that's passive aggressive when we're not actually explicitly stating the problem, that can be pretty passive aggressive, but cut off or cutting somebody off, not this cutoff culture that we live in where we're so quick to just be like, "I'm done with you." Alyssa Scolari [05:41]: Making the decision to go no contact with somebody or cut somebody off is typically or should be if exercised in the appropriate way, it should be a decision that comes after years and years or not even years, but after multiple failed attempts at trying to repair the relationships or trying to establish boundaries in the relationships, right? That's when we start talking about, "Do I even want to be in this relationship, friendship, et cetera, if things aren't improving?" So when I say that I went no contact, I by no means want to give the impression that this was an impulsive decision or something that I have done without ever really trying to fix the problem. Alyssa Scolari [06:30]: This is something that for me personally has been 30 years in the making. And again, I don't question whether I did the right thing or the wrong thing. I know it was the right thing for me, but there is a heavy amount of grief there just because it was the right decision doesn't mean that it hasn't been really difficult for me. There's a lot of grief, there's a lot of pain, there's a lot of anger and it feels like I've been preparing for it this whole last month with how depressed I was feeling. Alyssa Scolari [07:13]: I started reading Harry Potter again and mind you, I don't like J.K. Rowling, and I do not buy things now that support her. I have the books Harry Potter is, and always will be one of the most important parts of my childhood and my adulthood apparently. So I don't like Joanne Rowling. She is a trans exclusionary, radical feminist. She is extremely transphobic. She is very, very harmful to the transgender community, so don't support her at all as an aside, but I have been reading Harry Potter and Harry Potter is something that got me through so much when I was younger. So, so much. Alyssa Scolari [08:03]: This boy that has been hurt time after time after time and had nobody there or seemingly nobody there, but persisted anyway. And I started picking up those books again recently, and I've been really, really into them and just really drawn into to that world. And I think because emotionally speaking, there are so many parallels with Harry Potter's worlds and mine, and so in a way it feels like I knew this was coming. Alyssa Scolari [08:38]: I think my body was just preparing and then it happened, and I feel a lot of things, grief and relief. The whole gamut of emotions is what I feel. So I have been really just taking time to heal and recover and learn how to move through my life, and I guess just heal. That's the bottom line, I'm figuring out how to heal. So if I'm less responsive on Patreon, bear with me. If I'm less responsive on Instagram, also bear with me. Alyssa Scolari [09:19]: I am just taking my time to move through all of the feelings as they come, and we will see where I'm at next week. I will, of course update you on how I'm feeling and things of that nature, but that is what happened. I had to go no contact with my family and it sucked. It sucked, bottom line. So enough about that. Let's get into what we're talking about today, and what we're talking about today is boundaries as I mentioned. Alyssa Scolari [09:50]: So boundaries is, or boundaries are the one thing that I think so many people hate when it comes to therapy and healing and recovery because they are the hardest things to set. I believe, especially for trauma survivors who have typically had some part of our bodies or minds controlled by somebody else, trauma survivors who have been made to feel like their body isn't their own or their voice doesn't matter. We really struggle with boundaries, and I really struggled with boundaries. Alyssa Scolari [10:31]: I once had a supervisor tell me several jobs ago that I had terrible boundaries. Actually, she didn't say I had terrible boundaries. She said I had shitty boundaries, yelled at me and told me that I had boundaries. I was horrified by that. I was super young. I was super new in the field, and I look back at that and I'm like, huh? She was right. Now, don't get me wrong. She was so, so wrong to say that, and it was so inappropriate of her to say that, and I was so angry at how she said that to me, but she was right, she was absolutely right. Alyssa Scolari [11:15]: And I have had to work so hard over the last several years to make my boundaries healthier. I believe that boundaries are a work in progress. I think we are always working on them, and I don't think we ever get to the space where we're like a hundred percent perfect in all of our boundaries. I don't know, maybe we do, but I've never met anybody who's a hundred percent perfect in all of their boundaries, but it's something to always be worked on because at the end of the day, boundaries are the gateway to healing, they are the gateway to peace. Alyssa Scolari [11:53]: They are the gateway to good and happy and healthy relationships with ourselves, and others. Boundaries are everything. I firmly believe that, and so many other therapists out there also believe that. So we are talking about this right now. What are boundaries? Why do we need them? How do I know if I have poor boundaries? What do I do if I have terrible boundaries? How do I get better? Why is this so scary for me? How do I move past the anxiety around setting boundaries? Alyssa Scolari [12:30]: We're talking about all of it, and we are not going to be able to fit all of it into one episode. So this is going to be a multiple episode topic, but we're getting through it because I think that this is one of the most useful tools to have in your tool belt. Dare I say it is the most useful tool, at least for me, it's been the most useful. Absolutely. So over the course of the next few episodes, I am going to be pulling a lot of information from one of my favorite books about boundaries, and the author of this book is Nedra Glover Tawwab, and if you don't follow her on Instagram, you absolutely should. Alyssa Scolari [13:21]: She is incredible. She has 1.5 million followers. She is phenomenal, a phenomenal therapist. So I will link her Instagram as well as the book in the show notes. So you can feel free to go and check that out, but the title of her book is called Set Boundaries, Find Peace, A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself. This book is amazing. It's not super long. I have listened to it several times on Audible, so I just listened to it in my car when I'm driving. Alyssa Scolari [13:58]: I highly recommend this book. It was truly life changing for me, and I think that this book was part of the reason why I was able to get to a place where I said no more to my relationship with my family. So let's get right into it. The first question being, what are boundaries? And I think this is one of the first chapters in Nedra's book Set Boundaries, Find Peace. What in the world are boundaries? How do we define boundaries? Right? Alyssa Scolari [14:30]: That word in itself when I bring it up to people, a lot of people, they know what they are, but have trouble putting words to it. So we're going to break it down very simply which is boundaries are rules or expectations that need to be met in order for relationships whether that relationship is with ourselves or with other people. Rules, expectations that need to be met in order for relationships to operate in a healthy manner. In order for us to be happy, boundaries are required. Alyssa Scolari [15:15]: So let's break that down a little bit, right? It might make sense at first to be like, "Okay, well, I understand why boundaries might be needed with other people, but what do you mean myself? How do I set boundaries with myself?" And sometimes, that looks like getting on a schedule, having a routine, making time to detox from technology, right? Getting off the phone, getting off the computer. All of these little things that we do are self-boundaries. Alyssa Scolari [15:49]: They're boundaries that we have with ourselves to keep ourselves happy and healthy. So why do we need them? Why on earth do we need boundaries? Well obviously, it keeps us happy and healthy, but what happens when we don't have them? What happens if we don't have boundaries that are strong enough or boundaries that are too strong? Well, according to Nedra, relationships that are complicated or relationships that don't have great boundaries are among the leading causes of anxiety. Alyssa Scolari [16:29]: So poor relationships, relationships that aren't healthy, relationships that need improvement on boundaries are one of the biggest causes of anxiety. And that makes so much sense because so many people come to therapy, not just in a vacuum, right? People don't come to therapy and just say, "Well, I am struggling with depression." Or, "I have an eating disorder." No, behind the depression, behind the eating disorder, behind the anxiety disorder is typically, "Well, I have problems with this person and I have issues at work, and my boss is making me work 60 hours a week, and my mother won't stop calling me and my partner won't let me talk to other people of the opposite sex." Alyssa Scolari [17:19]: People come to therapy with problems that involve more often than not other people. I have never sat down with a client who came to me with a problem, and the problem was just a little, just about them. This problem almost always encompasses other people. So when we don't have boundaries, we don't have healthy enough boundaries, we tend to fail in our relationships or our relationships don't serve us, and this can exacerbate mental health disorders, and especially for somebody who has trauma, has a history of trauma, this can really exacerbate PTSD symptoms. Alyssa Scolari [18:05]: So how do you know if you are somebody who doesn't have great boundaries? Well, a lack of boundaries in itself can trigger an onset of tons of negative things, right? Including resentment and anxiety and depression and avoidance can also include overwhelm, feelings of burnout. These are all signs that boundaries are poor. I learned in grad school, I think one of the most important things that I learned in grad school and a tool that I keep in my back pocket to this day is my professor said it, Dr. Jim Hall who is amazing, love Dr. Hall. Alyssa Scolari [18:57]: He said to us one day in class, "If you are feeling burned out, if you are feeling stressed out, if you are starting to resent some of the clients that you are working with, that is a sign that you need better boundaries in your life." And I have never forgotten that. So this day, if I find myself getting not necessarily resentful because I don't really resent my clients, but sometimes if I get frustrated, if I feel like I'm working really, really hard, and this person isn't necessarily like meeting me halfway, or if I start to get burned out and I start to feel really, really overwhelmed, I know that that problem is my problem. Alyssa Scolari [19:46]: That's not a problem for my clients. The problem isn't my clients, it's never my clients. If I'm feeling some kind of way, that is because my boundaries aren't good enough or because something is going on within me, it's not the client's fault at all. That is a sign that my boundaries aren't as great as they could be. And so to this day, every time I felt this way, I have made it a point to readjust my boundaries, tighten them up a little, and then I feel so much better, and I enjoy my job so much more because here's the thing, right? Alyssa Scolari [20:22]: We live in this world where we almost shame selfishness in some ways. In some areas, we shame selfishness, right? Oh, you're being so selfish. Oh, why don't you care about anybody else? And then of course, in other ways, I feel like we live in a very, at least in the United States, right? It's very every man for himself, every woman for himself, every person for themselves. But in some ways, I find when it includes mental health and relationships, interpersonal relationships, it is more along the lines of we get shamed for putting ourselves first. Alyssa Scolari [21:11]: Oh, well, how could you not pick up the phone when that person needs you? You're not a good person. Why aren't you, why aren't you helping them move this weekend? And the thing about that is at the end of the day, you cannot save anybody else if you don't put your oxygen mask on first. You can't help other people if you can't help yourself and you will continue to have relationships where you feel resentful, or you feel like your needs aren't getting met until you decide that you have to come first, until you decide that you looking out for you is not selfish. Alyssa Scolari [21:58]: It is self-care. It is a requirement for survival for thriving. You have to look out for you first. Now, this is a really hard concept for people who are chronic people pleasers. I was raised as a people pleaser. I was raised that it doesn't matter what's going on in your life, it doesn't matter what's happening in your world. You need to drop everything and be there for other people, and if you don't, it's selfish, it's not right. It's not okay. Alyssa Scolari [22:34]: This is very, very hard to do, right? Because for those of us who are people pleasers, as soon as somebody needs us, or as soon as the going gets tough, the first thing to go on our list is usually self-care. We will put self-care so low on the totem pole because we are trying to meet the needs of everybody else first. This is often really true with moms. Moms, dads, parents. This is so true. Alyssa Scolari [23:01]: We will put, I say we like I'm a parent. I'm a dog mom, okay? It counts. We will put our needs so low on the totem pole. I have to feed the kids. I have to get them dressed. I have to take them to their after school sports. And we during none of that make time for ourselves in the slightest. Now listen, I'm not saying it's easy. Being a mom, I think is the hardest job in the whole world. Alyssa Scolari [23:36]: Being a parent in general I think is the hardest job in the entire world. Of course because of stigma, right? Because of the patriarchy, women are expected to do much more and often are doing so much more. So I think a lot of that pressure falls more on women and women are more likely to push their self-care to the side. So yeah, it's especially difficult when you have kids, when you have little ones who need you constantly to make time for yourself, but again, you can't show up as your best self to anybody if you're not putting yourself first. Alyssa Scolari [24:19]: And when we're not putting ourselves first and we're not getting our needs met, then we start to resent other people. And we feel like, "well, I'm always there for other people. Why isn't anybody showing up for me?" Because the other thing is, is that people benefit from you having poor boundaries, right? Nedra says this in the book and it is so important to remember. People benefit from you not having appropriate boundaries because then they can get more from you, and it's not necessarily an inherently bad thing. Alyssa Scolari [24:54]: I'm not saying that the people in your life are like, "Oh, I can see that Jane has terrible boundaries, and I'm going to milk her for everything she is worth." No, but it's nature, right? People test limits. People see, they want to see how much they can get away with. So people are going to take advantage of your poor boundaries and then you're going to feel resentful, you're going to feel overwhelmed, you're going to feel burnt out. Alyssa Scolari [25:24]: You're going to start to get very anxious, and you're either going to start to get angry with people, or you're going to become very depressed and you're going to feel lonely, and perhaps might isolate. Maybe you get a lot of anxiety because you don't want to talk to anybody. You don't want to open your inbox. You don't want to look at all your emails. You start to have panic attacks on Sunday nights before work the next day because you don't want to know all the work that your boss is going to put on you. You avoid, right? Alyssa Scolari [25:57]: You avoid. You either lash out at people or you avoid and you try to disappear. Now, I took a survey on my Instagram in a way to prepare for this episode because I thought it would be interesting to get all of your feedback. And I asked the question when you are in a conflict with somebody, what are you more likely to do? And the options were avoid conflict at all costs, set boundaries with the person and talk it through or cut the person off completely. Alyssa Scolari [26:40]: Now much to my surprise, nobody said cut the person off completely. Nobody said that. A few people said set boundaries, but the overwhelming majority of you, I think it was 88% of you said I will avoid conflict at all costs. And I see this so many times in my practice too. People will come in and they will avoid conflict and avoid conflict, but then their mental health will get worse and worse and worse. And honestly, I think that's what was happening to me over this last month. Alyssa Scolari [27:23]: I was avoiding ending things with my family. And so my mental health got worse and worse and worse and worse until I couldn't take it anymore, and I had to decide that I needed to come first. So this happens all of the time. Now there are three different types of boundaries. And first, we have poorest boundaries. Okay? So what are poorest boundaries? These are often people with weaker boundaries like in the sense that they have a lot of trouble setting those boundaries. Alyssa Scolari [28:03]: So they're too involved with other people. They will ruin their own day just so they can be there for somebody else. They will cancel their doctor's appointment just because somebody calls them and says, "Hey, I need you. Do you have time to talk?" These people are highly dependent on other people and they have a really difficult time with feeling highly anxious, overwhelmed, very burnt out. Alyssa Scolari [28:31]: These are your people pleasers. Very difficult time saying no, always wanting to help others. Yes, I'll help you move. Yes, I'll cancel my plans with my family and I will help you move. Yes, I will drive to your house for the millionth time even though you never drive to my house, and I won't say anything about it, but I am going to feel resentful. These are people who often struggle with like codependency and enmeshment. Alyssa Scolari [28:56]: They become extremely attached to other people. In general, they just struggle to say no. I just can't say no to anybody, and then we have healthy boundaries. Healthy boundaries is exactly what it is. It's when you are setting rules and expectations with yourself and other people without your past trauma showing up to the interaction. I hope that makes sense. This is something that I have taken from Nedra's book, and this is what she says, and I think that it's absolutely brilliant. Alyssa Scolari [29:42]: You are setting rules and expectations without letting your pain from the past, your trauma from the past show up. Without letting the fact that you have been abandoned as a child, the fact that your father left when you were younger, the fact that you have a history of sexual abuse, that's staying in the past and here you are setting roles and expectations without apologizing, without over explaining, without feelings of immense guilt or anxiety. Those are healthy boundaries. Alyssa Scolari [30:20]: That is what we are all striving for, easier said than done. I am much better at setting boundaries, but I sure as heck struggle with guilt and anxiety almost every time that I set them. And I think that this is just something that gets better over time and with practice. So then we have rigid boundaries. This is when your boundaries are just like entirely too strong. Alyssa Scolari [30:48]: Strong might not necessarily be the right word. I would say more rigid or inflexible boundaries. So when your boundaries are just entirely too rigid, and this can often look like folks who have like an all or nothing mentality sometimes. It's like I never, ever, ever will allow somebody to borrow money from me, never. And they just take that boundary to the grave. There is zero flexibility, there is zero chance of like, "Okay, well, what if your child is hard up for money and needs gas in their car? Are you going to say no? They need gas in their car to be able to get to work. What are you going to say?" Alyssa Scolari [31:36]: These people don't have space for that. They can't think of a gray area. It's like, "I am absolutely not going to do this or I am absolutely always going to do this. This could also be the person who go to the gym every single day. Now that could also be eating disorder related, but if this person's just like every single day, I have to be at the gym from 4:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. and they are so inflexible. Alyssa Scolari [32:04]: Something pops up, there's an emergency. I can't come, I'm at the gym. I can't come, I'm at the gym. There's no wiggle room in their boundaries. People who have rigid boundaries will often cut people off. Again, and I said this earlier. They will cut people off without making attempts to set healthy boundaries. They don't want to listen to anyone else's input, and really what rigid boundaries do is it protects people from getting too close to other people. Alyssa Scolari [32:38]: It protects from building relationships, it puts a wall between them and other people. So those are the three different types of boundaries. Hopefully if you have listened to this, you can identify which boundary you have and which category that you fall into. Now, Nedra in her book, and I think that this is really important to mention. She also goes on to say that there are a few of the major areas that people struggle with when it comes to boundaries. Alyssa Scolari [33:18]: And some of those areas are family, and I think this will make sense to a lot of us on this podcast. It is one of the hardest things to do to set boundaries with your family. Whether that's you can't keep giving money to your sister, or you don't want your brother living with you anymore, or you don't want your mother telling you how to parent your children. You don't want her input, things like that can be very, very difficult for people. Alyssa Scolari [33:54]: Work. So many people go to therapy because their work is so stressful. People really struggle to set boundaries with work especially in this new work from home environment that most of us have fallen into since COVID, or not most, many. It can be really, really difficult to make that determination of when am I going to stop checking my emails? When am I going to make a decision that I'm not going to pick up the phone when I boss is calling me? At what time is that going to stop? Alyssa Scolari [34:34]: Romantic relationships, this is also another huge one. People struggle if their partners are doing something that they don't appreciate, or that is harmful to them. People struggle, and I think a lot of that is the fear of abandonment. I don't want them to leave. Friends, very similar thing. People really struggle to set boundaries for friends because they're afraid of how people are going to react, and technology. Alyssa Scolari [35:02]: This is one that I think before really doing a deep dive into boundaries, I would've never even thought about, but it goes back to what I was saying in the beginning of the podcast where boundaries are really important to be able to set with yourself as well. How many hours a day am I going to be on my phone? How often am I going to check my email? Am I going to pick up the phone every time somebody calls me or am I going to let it go to voicemail, see what they want, and then get back to them when I have the space for it? Alyssa Scolari [35:36]: I've had to do a lot of hard work with technology in terms of just not scrolling TikTok at night, because all the blue light will keep you up for so much longer, and I struggle with insomnia. Just spending less and less time on social media because it depresses me. It really does, and also with emails and responding to people, feeling that need to just respond to people all the time versus looking at their texts or their voicemails, and then getting back to them when it's convenient for me. Alyssa Scolari [36:11]: If it's not, an emergency that I absolutely have to be there for like a life or death situation. So those are some of the main areas that Nedra Tawwab says that people struggle. And I believe it, I believe it. I think it's really, really fascinating. So that is a lot of information that I just threw at you. If I haven't convinced you already to get Nedra's book, this is me saying you totally should because it's a really, really good book, and I'm sure as I have spoken today, you all have been able to see a little bit of yourselves in what I am saying. Alyssa Scolari [36:54]: I am somebody who has poorest boundaries or I did have poorest boundaries. I think I have worked my way towards healthier boundaries, but I am just such a people pleaser. So this is something that I've had to work really hard on. It's been very difficult, but extremely rewarding because my life, my business, my relationships have been so much healthier as a result of working on these boundaries. Alyssa Scolari [37:25]: So this is not the end of our conversation my friends. This is only the beginning of us talking about boundaries. We've learned a lot about how people struggle, the different types of boundaries, and now, we are also going to talk about how we set those boundaries, what some of the fears are, how some people might react. We're going to get into more of the practical stuff. Alyssa Scolari [37:53]: I am really enjoying talking about this, and I hope that you have enjoyed listening. If you like what you hear, please feel free to leave us a review and a rating. It goes a really long way in helping to increase visibility of the podcast, and if you haven't done so already, you can also feel free to check out the Patreon link in the show notes. There you can donate to the podcast if you are liking what you hear. Alyssa Scolari [38:22]: Even a little bit goes a really long way in terms of helping to make this podcast a well-oiled machine. I am so grateful for the Patreon members that we have. Also, if you are a Patreon member, you can make a special request for episode topics. You can feel free to reach out to me and say, "Hi, I would love to hear from you." Take care, have a wonderful week, and I am holding you in the light. Alyssa Scolari [38:48]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you, and we appreciate your support. Speaker 2 [39:25]: [Singing].

Depression might be clinically diagnosed as a very specific set of symptoms, but it is often so much more than that. Does your depression cause you to over-function? Does it cause you to under-function? Has your pain ever been invalidated because your symptoms don't look like the stereotypical symptoms of depression? If so, you are not alone! Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma   Transcript: Alyssa Scolari [00:19]: Hello. Hello. Welcome back to the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari, back with a solo episode, after taking a few weeks of doing a guest episode with Rebecca Christensen. It was a two-part series on narcissistic abuse. If you haven't gotten a chance to check it out, it is very good. Go check it out. I was taking a break, mostly because I haven't been feeling that great and physically I'm feeling mostly okay. But emotionally I have not been feeling well at all. April is just not my month. And so I definitely needed a few weeks off. So Rebecca and I had done this two-part episode and I thought now was a perfect time to be able to share it with you all, because it gave me a little bit of a break just to be able to recuperate and try to recover a little bit. And quite honestly, I am still not feeling good, at all. Alyssa Scolari [01:33]: And I think there's a million reasons why. I already know the answer to the why, but the question of how do I get these feelings to go away or to leave? I have yet to answer that because I've been feeling terrible for, I would say at least like a month at this point. I have just been really struggling with depression. And I know that there's a lot going on. Just as an example, this time of year, particularly, is really hard because four years ago was when my mom got really, really sick and she almost died. In fact, we were told that she was going to die and she made it and she survived, but not without months of her being in the hospital and being in ICU and her being up and down and up and down. And one minute she wasn't going to make it. And the next minute she might have a chance. Alyssa Scolari [02:43]: It was an emotional rollercoaster for months. And I can't forget it and I will never forget it. And I think this time of year is when it just hits me the hardest. My body... You Bessel van der Kolk said it best, right? Your body keeps the score. And my body has been reminding me that this time of year, four years ago, was really, really hard. I spent like 24 hours a day, just like praying to every God out there, that my mom would live. And she did. But it's hard because I feel like... I don't want to sound ungrateful because I'm very, very grateful for the circumstances, and I know other people don't have circumstances like that. Other people do lose their parents. So I'm trying not to act like this was the worst thing that ever could have happened. But with that being said, I think that I need to acknowledge that it was very traumatic and it's not even just that. It's a million other things, too, that have been going on and changes in my life and shifts in my relationships that have been really, really hard for me. Alyssa Scolari [04:06]: And I have been depressed. And it's really interesting to hear myself say that because I have always held... I think prior to becoming a therapist, I have always held such a stigma of depression. And I notice that the people around me, the world around us, people hold such a stigma about it. People are so much more likely to say I have OCD or I have anxiety, right? Anxiety is the big one. Anybody will walk up to you and be like, oh, my anxiety. Oh, my anxiety. But very few people will just kind of start talking about their depression. That is largely in part because of the stigma that we place on depression. It's okay to talk about anxiety, but it's not okay to talk about depression. Alyssa Scolari [05:00]: I don't really know why. I could theorize why I think that depression is kind of more serious sounding. And when people think depression, they think suicidal. And when people think suicidal, it makes them very uncomfortable. And therefore, we don't even want to breach that topic. So we're not even talking about it. I think that has a lot to do with it. But ultimately, I don't know for sure. But what I do know is that I even internalized that stigma for a while and had a really hard time talking about my depression. Happy to say, I don't have that hard of a time talking about it anymore. I feel like I've really released that stigma. And so that's what we're talking about today. Alyssa Scolari [05:45]: We are talking about depression. I think we really haven't yet just sat down, me and you, the listener, and had a chat about depression. I've had people on the show that I've talked about depression. Depression has been a theme of almost every episode that we've done, but what does it actually look like? And I think that what has really inspired me lately to share about this topic and to speak on this topic is, I think a lot of the judgements that I have received about my own depression, because if you had a conversation with me, you would have no clue that I was depressed. In fact, you would get the impression of the exact opposite. You would think that I was the happiest person in the world. In fact, people often describe me as being bubbly, which blows my mind, because that is the furthest thing from how I view myself... like bubbly me. Alyssa Scolari [06:53]: Absolutely not. I've often been compared to... I don't know if anybody's going to remember this, but the Powerpuff Girls with Buttercup, Bubbles and Blossom. That was one of my favorite shows growing up. People often compared me to Bubbles, who was like this very adorable little bubbly blonde. She was my favorite when I was growing up. And people often compare me to her and I don't see myself that way at all. So let's just talk for a second about what depression actually is, because contrary to what I think a lot of folks believe, depression is very, very, very different from sadness and in the DSM, which is that book that has all of the mental health diagnoses, it is really classified by multiple symptoms. And those symptoms are not like sadness. Sadness or a sad mood, is not a symptom of depression. That is how different they are... they're not even close. Sad versus depression... completely different things. Alyssa Scolari [08:08]: So some of the symptoms of depression include, a loss of appetite or overeating... so maybe issues with getting in touch with your hunger and fullness cues, or even your hydration cues, your thirst cues. Issues with sleeping... having depleted energy, or maybe being tired all the time, feeling fatigued all the time. Having a low self-esteem, difficulty with concentrating or making decisions. Feelings of hopelessness or despair is another one. The loss of interest and pleasure in a lot of the activities that you used to once find very pleasurable. Problems sleeping... either you can't fall asleep or you wake up throughout the night or you're having nightmares all the time. Perhaps changes in weight. Perhaps not always. We talked about low energy, problems thinking or making decisions, thoughts of guilt or worthlessness. And it can be, again, not always, repeated thoughts of death or suicide or a suicide attempt. Alyssa Scolari [09:20]: So basically there's two different kinds of depression in the DSM. There's major depressive disorder. And then there's different severities of that. So it can be mild, it can be moderate, it can be severe. It can be with psychotic features without psychotic features. Or we're not going to go into that today, because honestly, that's just going to bore you, but major depressive disorder... and that is when you have to have these symptoms, at least five of the symptoms for at least two weeks, then you can classify or qualify for having major depressive disorder. Then there's dysthymia. And dysthymia is also known as persistent depressive disorder. Now, persistent depressive disorder, or PDD, or dysthymia as you'll hear me call it throughout this episode, is less severe than major depressive disorder, but it lasts for much longer. So instead of having to meet five of those symptoms that I listed for PDD, you only have to meet two of those symptoms. Alyssa Scolari [10:31]: So it's certainly a less severe form of depression. But in order to have dysthymia, you have to have felt this way for at least two years with little to no relief. Whereas major depressive disorder is sort of like extremely depressed, noticeable changes, severe changes, but then you come out of it and then maybe you go back into it again, dysthymia is sort of this lower level or like lower grade depression that is just always there. I got to be honest. I don't love this. I really don't love the way the DSM breaks down depression, because honestly, what the fuck? Like, okay, well, what if somebody has both? What if somebody has low level depression all the time, but then it gets really, really bad sometimes. Or there's just so many loose ends with these with the way that depression is listed in the DSM. Alyssa Scolari [11:31]: And I've also almost always seen depression be a part of other mental health disorders. So it's, is this person dysthymic? Do they have PDD or do they have trauma that's taking them years to recover from. And as a result of the trauma, they have depression. Do we keep throwing diagnoses at people and just say, oh, well you have major depressive disorder. Oh, well it's been two years. And now you have PDD... I guess I don't agree with it. I think it's very confusing for folks. And I think it's very confusing even for mental health professionals. But, alas, this is what we're working with here. But I think that it's important to note that this really isn't the be-all end-all for depression. I know I've said this before, but in order to even create these diagnoses, there's no one way to create a diagnosis that's going to be the way for all of eternity. Alyssa Scolari [12:30]: Basically what happens is a bunch of mental health professionals get together in a room and decide what criteria needs to be in place in order to meet... in order to get a diagnosis. So humans are fallible. Therefore, I think that all of these diagnoses in themselves can be fallible. And that's what we're talking about today, because the way that depression is listed in the DSM and the way that therapists are trained to spot depression is very, very stereotypical, which is great, but the majority of people don't operate like this. Maybe not the majority, but many, many, many people do not experience these symptoms, but have depression or don't experience these symptoms outwardly, I should say. Alyssa Scolari [13:28]: So for example, if we can look at Winnie the Pooh for a second... bear with me. Let's take a look at Eeyore. Eeyore is your classic depression. He is depressed, right? Whether he has major depressive disorder or dysthymia... I would say he could probably have both. He perpetually has a low grade level of depression. I think sometimes maybe he feels a little better, especially after he finds his tail. But I would say that he also can suffer from major depressive disorder. I think that he doesn't function as well as the other members of Winnie the Pooh. And I do think that he could meet... I mean, I don't know for sure, but I think that if we talk to Eeyore, if I had him in my office, I think there's a strong possibility that he could have at least five of the symptoms that also would give him a diagnosis of major depressive disorder. Alyssa Scolari [14:36]: When we look at Eeyore, we have no questions about it. We are... Eeyore is depressed, but we can't really look at many people and go, that person is depressed. We just can't. It doesn't work like that. Most people don't walk around acting that way or showing that, and depression has so many different faces. And this is where I tend to get very frustrated because I think that again, as a society, people expect that depression is going to just look like the moping sad person, but it's not. And I have had multiple interactions lately, where, especially in this last month, as I said, I have not been doing well with... my depression has been... it's felt unbearable, to be honest. I don't feel well. And it sucks. And I am doing my best to work through it. And I am engaging in all of the coping skills. Alyssa Scolari [15:42]: I am not isolating myself. I'm trying to go out with friends. I am trying to get outside as much as I can, but at the end of the day, I still feel depressed. I still do. And I am just sort of like trying to ride the wave and wait for it to pass. But because I don't look depressed, my depression doesn't get taken seriously. So let's talk about what depression might look like on me, because, well, basically when we look at depression and anxiety and perhaps a few other mental health disorders, we have people who go into really essentially two different categories. We have chronic overfunctioners and then we have chronic underfunctioners. Alyssa Scolari [16:34]: I am somebody who is an overfunctioner when I am depressed... meaning I will get out of bed. I will brush my teeth. I will do my hair. I will work the entire week. I will extend myself when people need me. If people reach out to me, I will make sure that I respond immediately. I will answer all my emails. I will prepare all my meals. I will eat. I will drink. I will go out with friends. Like I am go, go, go, go, go, go, go. I appear happy. I appear bubbly. I am laughing. I am cracking jokes. I know I shared on my Instagram story... for those of you who follow me, a couple weeks ago, I shared that I had gone out with friends and I went out to meet them for really the first time this... the one person I knew I hadn't seen her in years, but the other people, I didn't know. And that is really, really scary for me. Especially being in a state where I had been feeling really depressed and really vulnerable. Alyssa Scolari [17:40]: I put myself in this situation, which I thought was going to help my depression. And it did. I think that it did, but I went out and I had a good time. Everybody was great. I felt like I was with people who were very similar to me. And I was the life of the party. I was literally the life of the party. I was cracking jokes. I was telling stories. I was laughing. I was engaged. I was making eye contact. I wasn't on my phone at all. I was playing with the animals. I was great. If anybody had been in that room and they had talked to me or they had even watched me, they would say, nope, there's zero risk factor here. What people don't know is that I came home that night and I was getting ready for bed. And I was very much in my head about, oh my God, did they like me? Did I say something stupid? Was I annoying? They probably hate me. I wonder if I'll be invited back. No, I definitely am not going to be invited back. Alyssa Scolari [18:48]: And I had a quick exchange with my husband and he said something to me that I interpreted incorrectly as a result of already being on edge. I sort of thought that he was like upset with me and I lost it. Like had a panic attack that lasted four hours. And look, I know that a lot of people love to say panic attacks only last three to five minutes. That is some bull shit, okay? That is some bullshit. If somebody says that to you, that's because they've never had a panic attack before. Panic attacks do not last for only three to five minutes. I could not breathe for hours. I was hyperventilating. I was sobbing. I was disassociated. I was... I was gone. I was gone. I was in a level of emotional pain that felt absolutely unbearable for me. Alyssa Scolari [19:54]: And as a result of that chronic breakdown, I barely slept. I woke up the next day feeling emotionally hungover. I was exhausted. And when I'm tired, I get even more depressed. So I kind of like lost my weekend to a meltdown that I had merely hours after going out and appearing like everything was absolutely fine. When I am depressed, and when people who are overfunctioners are depressed, you're not going to see us kind of like laying in bed. You're going to see us going and going and going and going until we break. And that is sort of... that is what I do. That is my tendency. And the more depressed I am, the more high energy I'm going to be. Maybe that sounds a little wild, but here's my reasoning behind it. Alyssa Scolari [20:50]: I can't speak for other people, but my reasoning behind it is because the more upset I feel... the more depressed I feel, the more vulnerable I am and I hate being vulnerable. It is really, really terrifying for me. I am working on it, right? The part of this podcast is... this whole episode is me being vulnerable. This is really hard to talk about, but when I'm vulnerable, because I hate it so much, I feel like I need to put on more of a show so that people can't tell that I'm hurting because it almost keeps people at bay, right... because people can't look at me and see my sadness. So they're not going to ask... because I'm like, don't ask me. Please don't look at me. Please don't see through me. I don't want you to see through me and see that I am in agony. I over function. So nobody knows. Alyssa Scolari [21:44]: Outwardly I don't display any of those symptoms, but I come home and I fall apart. And every symptom is there. I know one of the sure-fire ways when I am depressed, is that I stop drinking water. I literally just stop. Like I cannot get in touch with my thirst cues at all. And then my hunger cues go away. And then I feel tired all the time and I stop eating. And it's like... this past Saturday, I don't think I ate a full meal until four o'clock. And that is so unlike me, because I'm usually so good at getting all my meals in. Alyssa Scolari [22:26]: So depression can look like over-functioning. So please do not look at the people around you who appear to have it all together and say, oh, you don't know what it feels like. You don't know what it's like to be depressed... because I've had several people kind of say that to me this past month where, if somebody asks me how I'm doing, and I'm, honestly, I haven't been doing well. Or I said... I had an event to go to where I actually said hey, I don't think I'm going to be able to make it. I'm not really feeling well. And you know, this person was, oh, are you sick? And I was, no, honestly, just emotionally not doing well. Don't think I want to go. I really think I need this night to myself. And this person was... this person is not a close friend of mine, at all. Alyssa Scolari [23:16]: So I didn't really... it's not like this person like knows me really well. And it's not like I really care all that much that this person said this, but it does kind of piss me off... in general, I'm not angry at the person, but just in general, as a society like that, we think this way, because this person was, oh, but you look happy all the time, when I see you. I didn't know you were going through stuff emotionally. And I wanted to be, well, we are all going through stuff emotionally. Have you not been around for the past several years? We are all going through it. What do you mean, I didn't look sad? Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry I didn't look sad. And I've just had several little comments like that throughout my life of people being, oh, well you didn't look sad or, oh, well, depression... you never told me you were depressed. First of all, I don't need to tell you. I don't need to tell you. Alyssa Scolari [24:17]: But second of all, I don't care what I look like. I'm telling you my experience. Why are you invalidating it? And so I think the people who have depression, who over-function really struggle with this, as much as we kind of over-function because it's protective for us and we don't want to let people in. We also feel really, really hurt when people invalidate us. Now, listen, I'm not saying that's anybody's problem to fix. I need to be perhaps not so guarded and I need to learn how to tone down my over-functioning and I have... even telling somebody, hey, no, I can't go to this, I need to take care of myself... that is huge for me because in the past I would've been like, go, go, go, go, go. Because I grew up being taught that it is never okay to inconvenience somebody else for your own personal needs. Alyssa Scolari [25:13]: Right? I grew up being taught that all that matters is making other people happy. I grew up being taught that it only matters what you look like to others... doesn't actually matter how you feel. What matters the most is what you look like to others. But some people, when they're depressed, they become underfunctioners. And that is okay. We tend to glorify overfunctioners. And I hate that because overfunctioners, as a result of never letting themselves really feel their feelings and slow down, they tend to develop high blood pressure and high blood pressure is actually considered the silent killer. It is considered the silent killer and studies have found over the years that so many folks with high blood pressure have been able to manage it through stress management. So it is all so linked. So, but here we are glorifying overfunctioners. Alyssa Scolari [26:15]: underfunctioners don't necessarily have the same struggle with the high blood pressure. They might, right? They may, but it's not necessarily a result of them under functioning because your underfunctioners are people who have trouble showering. They have trouble brushing their teeth in the morning. They have trouble eating or drinking, or they will not text anyone back for weeks at a time. They won't show up to anything. They sort of fall off the face of the earth and they struggle with even the most basic things. Simply the act of breathing can feel difficult on the days where the depression is really, really bad. Alyssa Scolari [27:05]: Now there is also a stigma against underfunctioners. And that stigma is that they are lazy. They are flaky. They are dirty, right, especially when we talk about how hygiene can sometimes go, when we're feeling really depressed. So many people turn their nose up to that. Ew, oh God, Ew. How could you not brush your teeth? I don't understand how you could just not brush your teeth and lay in bed all day. Or I don't understand how you could just not wash your sheets for two months. I get infuriated when people say things like this, and honestly, I have been surrounded by people my whole life who are overfunctioners who disparage underfunctioners. How could you let your house get dirty? How could you do this? How could you do that? It's called depression and we need to stop judging it. Alyssa Scolari [28:07]: Now I am not saying that every single person with a filthy home has depression. That's not what I'm saying here, but what I'm saying is these can be signs of depression. If you walk into someone's home for the first time and you notice that it is dirty, that might not be because that person is lazy or doesn't care or wasn't raised right. No, that can be a huge red flag for depression. Somebody's bad breath could be a huge red flag. Maybe it was all they could do just to get to work. So I'm trying to get us to understand that depression doesn't just look like some sad, mopey, Eeyore-like character. Depression can look like the person who comes in with a full face of makeup. You know, they come into work with a full face of makeup and a minty fresh breath, or it can be the person who comes in... they look like they barely put a comb through their hair and their breath reeks. Alyssa Scolari [29:11]: We can't call people names as a result of either. We cannot look at underfunctioners and make judgements on their character when we don't know, because that could be the face of depression. The person with a full face of makeup could be the face of depression. I am the face of depression. I am one of the many faces of depression. I struggle with depression on a regular basis. I have been so tired at times that I haven't been sure how I am going to go on. There are days where I under function as well. They are a little bit more rare for me because my tendency is to over-function, but there have been days where I'm like, I can't get out of this bed. I just can't do it. And therefore, I didn't eat. Therefore, I never got to brush my teeth and you know what? I am no less of a person. It doesn't make me lazy. It doesn't make me gross. It doesn't make me unhygienic. My teeth haven't fallen out. I have not hurt anybody as a result of my under functioning. Alyssa Scolari [30:33]: So there are stereotypes of both, overfunctioning under functioning, major depressive disorder, dysthymia. Whatever you may be struggling with, whatever anybody may be struggling with, it is still excruciating pain. And I want us to remember that the next time we go to cast aspersions on somebody or make judgements. And I want us to remember that the next time that we are in conversations with people, because I, myself am like a victim of being... or not a victim. I'm not a victim. I am a victim of people kind of looking at me and saying, oh, well, you can't be depressed, but I have been wrong before by looking at other people and being like, huh? Why didn't you shower? Like what is going on here? Right. I have judged people by being like, what the heck happened. That can be a face of depression. Alyssa Scolari [31:31]: So this is something for all of us to work on, but this is also something for us to learn about ourselves. Are you an over-functioner? Are you an underfunctioner? What does your depression look like, because what I described coming out of the DSM, that's not all depression can look like. And I think that once we sort of identify for ourselves what it looks like for us, then we are able to catch it much more quickly and can then work to recover from it. It's not always going to look like it does in the textbooks. It's going to look different for each and every one of us. So I think it is really helpful to figure out what it looks like for you. Alyssa Scolari [32:14]: And one way you can do that is by journaling, right? What does my depression look like for me? And you can think of all of the examples that I've just given and you can decide for yourself. And maybe there are things that I've left out. Maybe there are things that I am not aware of myself. Hey, let me know. You know where to find me, and, oh, I don't think I mentioned that at the beginning of this episode, but you can give us a follow over at Light After Trauma on Instagram. Alyssa Scolari [32:42]: And if you are a Patreon member, and you would like, you can certainly request an episode topic. I know a few of you have done so, and I am working on getting to them. When I get an episode topic, I like to do my research on said topic because I don't want to come in just like making stuff up... obviously that's not helpful for anybody, so I like to do my research. So once you request a topic, it is going to take me some time because I want to look into it. I want to read about it. And I want to feel equipped enough to be able to share with you what I've learned, especially if it's not something that I'm familiar with. So just keep that in mind. The Patreon is in the show notes, so you can feel free to go and check that out. Alyssa Scolari [33:29]: And thank you so much for the support as always. If you have not done so already, please feel free to leave a rating or review of the podcast. It helps so much. I hope that everybody's having a good week. I am hoping and I'm praying for a better week on my end. I am just... yeah, I am feeling terrible and I don't have any follow ups... there's no buts after. There's no, oh, I know it's going to get better because... I do know it's going to get better, but it's not helpful for me to kind of say that. Sometimes we just need to be in it. And that's kind of where I am. I just need to be in it. I just need to acknowledge that I am not even a little bit okay, but I am I'm here and I'm doing my best to keep myself moving and enjoying the sunshine and just making the most. But it is what it is for right now until I feel better. Alyssa Scolari [34:35]: So I hope that you are all doing very well. I love you all. I am holding you in the light and I will see you next week. Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media... on Instagram we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

What is covert vs. overt narcissism? What do symptoms of abuse look like in victims? Can an abuser ever truly change? This week brings us part two of a two-part series with Rebecca Christianson, LCSW, on narcissistic abuse. Learn more about Rebecca Christianson, LCSW   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma   Transcript: Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and we have part two today of our episode about narcissism with Rebecca Christianson, who you all know very well at this point, is the founder and owner of Rebellious Wellness Counseling in South Jersey. We are just going to jump right into it, pick up where we left off. So if you have not listened to last week's episode, please be sure to do so because we are breaking down narcissism into a two-part episode and this is part two. So if you didn't listen to part one, please remember to go back and listen. And really, we are just picking up where we left off. And where we left off is wanting to talk about the differences between covert narcissism and overt narcissism because narcissism can be glaring and in your face, but it can also be much more subtle. And I think Rebecca and I can probably both agree that both types are terrible, but covert narcissism can be, I don't know if I want to say a little bit more insidious, but it can be much more confusing for the victims. So do you want to take it, Rebecca? What do you have to say on that? Rebecca Christianson [01:43]: One of the ways that narcissism can be covert is that sometimes narcissists play this down, depressed ... They elicit empathy and you always end up feeling sorry for them. And so people are like, "Oh no, they're not a narcissist. They're depressed," but certainly there are times where people are depressed and are down and do need empathy and support. The problem is that a narcissist uses that to entice people to feel sorry for them. But those traits of narcissism like selfishness and they're never really trying to help other people, it's always just about getting people to help them. It's always about them. Alyssa Scolari [02:33]: Yes. Yeah, I can think in a relationship, a red flag for this could be ... And I guess I should say this and I think we might have said this in the other episode, but if we didn't, then it bears saying now. So Rebecca and I are giving examples, but the loved one in your life that you are thinking may or may not be a narcissist, we are not diagnosing this person. We're not that person's therapist, so we can't diagnose people. And simply because we are giving traits of what a narcissist can look like does not necessarily mean that somebody who has these traits is always going to be a narcissist. So just keep that in mind as you go through this process and just reflecting off of what Rebecca said, I think, a good example might be. The narcissist even tries to elicit sympathy if you are the one with a problem. Right? Would you agree with that? Rebecca Christianson [03:34]: Yep. Yes. Right. They elicit sympathy even if you're the one that has the problem, they will turn it around so that you are then taking care of them. They lack the ability to have compassion or empathy for other people. It always has to turn back around them so there's a very selfish nature in a covert narcissist and they keep you in this detrimental cycle. And it's really sometimes hard to see because we typically think of a narcissist, an overt narcissist, who is egocentric and the need for adoration and arrogant, also very selfish and lack sympathy, but very overt about it. And a covert narcissist does that very under the radar. It's hard to see sometimes. Alyssa Scolari [04:30]: Yeah. I think a covert narcissist, we can look at Adolf Hitler, I think we could say, was a clear example. And potentially some other political leaders in this world at this very moment, we can clearly identify them as overt narcissists. They are loud and out there about the fact that they really don't care about anybody but themselves and their own personal gains. Rebecca Christianson [04:58]: But they're very charming and there's that love bombing stage that we did talk about, I think, in part one, and they have this way of making you believe that even though they have those personality traits, you're the one that sees the real them. You're the one that can change them. You're the one that can help them understand why other people see them that way. They can hook you until you hit the devalue phase and discard phase. But even though the way we're talking about them, it seems like, "Well, who would even want to be friends with them?" they have a way, and that's the love bonding stage. They have a way of making you feel like a million dollars when you're with them in the beginning. Alyssa Scolari [05:44]: Yes, they're so charismatic, so charismatic. And I think also another good way to identify a covert narcissist is the one upper. Who's the one upper in your life? You had a bad day, they had a worse one. You got a nail in your tire. Well, guess what? They got four nails in their tire. Your kid is difficult. Well, guess what? The kid that they had is 20 times more difficult. You can't even begin to imagine how hard life is for them. Yeah. It's like the constant one upper in your life. Rebecca Christianson [06:20]: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. You're a hundred percent right about that. I think one of the things we talked about in this interview is are all narcissist abusive? Now, I did some research and I thought about that and that's a hard one. I don't know how to answer that. I really don't. Alyssa Scolari [06:44]: Yeah. I was thinking about this question too, and it's hard for me to picture a situation in which they're not abusive. I know we're not supposed to really be using all or nothing generalizations about people, but it's really hard for me to picture a narcissist who isn't abusive because they feed off of the attention from others. So it's not like a narcissist would ever just be a lone wolf, that they would never have an effect on other people. Right? Rebecca Christianson [07:27]: That's exactly what I thought too, is it's hard to imagine a scenario where that would not be an abusive cycle, where that would not turn into. It's really hard to imagine that. And I think one of the things that piggybacks of what we were saying earlier, as we're talking about, you think, "Well, who would want to be friends with somebody like that? Who would want to be in a relationship?" And as you mentioned, they're huge charmers. Their personalities are bigger than life. You're drawn to them. Rebecca Christianson [07:58]: And I think a lot of times, at least when I see people, I'm sure when you see people too, who have been victims of narcissists, they feel ashamed and feel like there's something about them that allowed them to ... They're not smart or they're not self-aware, all these different things, so I thought that was really important to point that narcissists get attracted to people who are intelligent, who have really good qualities. They are empathic and they do have a lot of compassion and they show a lot of heart and they're open. That's who narcissists are attracted to. So if you have those qualities, which are all really good qualities, you're a target for a narcissist. They need their ego fed and they need it fed by somebody who's intelligent and self-aware and open and empathic and can be vulnerable and are mature and have a lot of friends. That's who they need their ego fed, so the qualities that most of us strive to have are all what narcissists target. Alyssa Scolari [09:09]: A thousand percent, a thousand percent. They're not going for easy prey because it doesn't do anything for their ego. Relationships are all about feeding their ego. Rebecca Christianson [09:19]: All about feeding their ego. People who are all often successful and have many achievements and all those things, because that is who they want to feed their ego. If they can hook them, it just is all the better, too. And I think that's an important thing for people because they break you and they come out of that abusive relationship and you feel none of those things about yourself. That feels like another person. That feels like the former you. Therapy for somebody who's a victim of that is about helping them reattach to that person that they are, that they still are, but they've lost in this abusive cycle. They've lost themselves, but helping them reattach to who they really are and mend friendships that they've lost and mend the relationship with themselves. Rebecca Christianson [10:17]: I read this thing about the first step is learning how to observe, be an observer and observe your own thoughts and feelings and that person's thoughts and feelings and actions. And when you can start just observing, you can then start to have some detachment from the cycle, that abusive cycle, and some clarity. And then, obviously once you start to detach, going to therapy and starting to reattach to that former self that you feel like you lost is so important. But I read this thing about, if you don't know where to start, start meditating and be mindful, because meditation teaches you how to detach from your thoughts and feelings. And I always thought that was such a great piece of advice because it's so true. If you just start meditating, just the act of meditating forces you to detach from your thoughts and feelings and observe them, and then you start to observe their thoughts and feelings. And when you can learn to detach them a little bit, then you stop the effect of that abuse momentarily so that you can start to see it for what it is instead of get sucked into it. And I thought that was really good advice. Alyssa Scolari [11:37]: Yeah. I love that. And I almost think that can sometimes be the role of what the therapist does if you aren't able to get there in that moment, where you can be mindful and step outside yourself. That's where I think a therapist is so important. As you're talking, I'm thinking about myself and the clients that I've dealt with who have had narcissists in their lives and they haven't been able to do that at first. So it's the thing that us as therapists do because we are literally the outside person and we can say, "Hey, this is what this is looking like," and then we teach you to then be able to do that for yourself. And yeah, I think that is the first big step to healing. Rebecca Christianson [12:22]: I do too. I do too. I thought that was really ... And then mindfulness teaches you to be aware of the in the moment and be aware of how you're reacting, what you're thinking, what you're feeling and how you're reacting. And sometimes when I teach mindfulness, as in DBT, that one whole section of DBT, one of the cornerstones of DBT is mindfulness. And sometimes when I teach it, I talk about self-respect and personal integrity and being able to be mindful of what you're thinking, what you're feeling and what how you're reacting and how that's landing and what your intent is. And there's a certain amount of self-respect and personal integrity when you can stay mindful and be aware of those things because you're more likely to react in a way that is congruent with your intent. I thought that was really interesting. Also, the role of a therapist in helping somebody heal from narcissistic abuse, to help people, teach people, mindfulness because you get sucked into that abuse and you become reactive. That's why I say that can break you. You can become somebody that you don't even recognize and ... Alyssa Scolari [13:48]: Oh, absolutely. Rebecca Christianson [13:50]: Yep. And you can break off friendships, family relationships, whatever you have to do to keep that relationship because it becomes all important to you, so I feel like mindfulness is a really important skill too, in the treatment of healing from a narcissist. Alyssa Scolari [14:10]: Yes. No, it's so important. And I think about my own experiences and I remember ... You say you don't even recognize yourself. You don't even know how you end up light years away from who you used to be and you don't know how you got there or how you're even going to begin to get yourself back. I remember when I was dating a narcissist and for the listeners, if you've been a long time listener on this podcast, you all know about my experience with being in a very abusive relationship. I left my home, moved in with this dude. And before I knew it, literally before I knew it, I had cut off my entire family, didn't speak to any of them, and I was looking for apartments for us to live in. I was a college kid. I couldn't afford an apartment. I could barely afford a cup of coffee, but I was suddenly about to pay 50% of the rent for a really fancy apartment in a really ritzy area because he told me that this would make me happy. And I was like, "This doesn't make me happy. I'm going to be alone and broke. And you're going to be living with me and I don't even think I like you." Alyssa Scolari [15:34]: You lose yourself. And I think, in talking about the treatment that victims get, mindfulness, absolutely. And I think further along that journey is boundary setting. Whether or not you're still in that relationship, boundary setting. Would you agree with that? Rebecca Christianson [15:59]: Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. I think that's, like you said, farther down that journey. I feel like once you can start to detach from the thoughts and feelings that you're having and you can observe what's happening for you and you can observe what's happening for them and you can start to identify the abuse and you can start to become mindful and aware of what your needs and wants are and not just what the narcissist's needs are wants and your desire to fulfill that bottomless well, you can start to, again, focus on what some of your needs are wants are. I feel like then boundary setting is ... And some people were really good at boundary setting and then they got caught up in a narcissistic abuse cycle and they've lost that ability. It's just remembering boundaries are life sustaining. We need boundaries for everything and ... Alyssa Scolari [16:58]: Your whole life. Rebecca Christianson [17:00]: Your whole life. Boundaries do not make you a selfish person. Boundaries make you a healthy person. Alyssa Scolari [17:05]: Yes, and this is important. This is especially important if the narcissist in your life is a parent or is the person who raised you. This is especially important because oftentimes, we have parents or caregivers who are narcissists and it's not so easy to just cut them off because you can't just break up with them. You breaking up with a caregiver doesn't make them not your caregiver. You breaking up with a parent doesn't mean that they're no longer your parent. Now, you could go no contact, but for some people, it takes years to get there. And for some people, that's never an option, so I think especially when the narcissist in your life is a parent, I think boundaries are crucial. Crucial down the road, of course, after you learn how to solidify your voice and take back what was taken from you. Rebecca Christianson [18:11]: Yep. Exactly. No, I absolutely agree. Yes. Alyssa Scolari [18:15]: Now, we're talking about treatment for the victim of a narcissist, but what about treatment for a narcissist? Can narcissists get treatment? Will they get treatment? And if they do, what does that look like? Rebecca Christianson [18:36]: I have, over the years, seen a few narcissists that have gotten treatment, have been successful, I should say, in treatment. So they often do not seek treatment because this is an ingrained personality disorder. And like you said, we are not diagnosing somebody that we don't know in somebody else's life. To be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, you have to meet criteria for a period of time and you have to meet the criteria in the DSM-5, and that has to be over a period of time. It's not just like these personality traits are present in one relationship. They have to be there pervasively for a period of time. But I have seen over the years, a handful of narcissists that have successfully been treated. And in all of those cases, them seeking treatment was brought on by a traumatic event in their life or an illness or accident that was life-threatening. So oftentimes, that is when the consequences of some of these personality traits hit home. When they are facing a life change or an illness, something that could possibly, they would need a caretaker or they're going through treatment, sometimes that is when some of these personality traits, they become aware of some of these personality traits and how they have impacted other people because they've alienated so many people. Rebecca Christianson [20:22]: Or some tragedy, so I have seen one narcissist who went through the loss of a child and that really shook him to the core. I think it was some of his family and friends' reactions to that tragic loss that made him seek treatment and want to understand why he was that way and wanted to change. Rebecca Christianson [20:45]: And it was years ago, many years ago, but I do believe that he successfully changed. Treatment, for him, was some exposure therapy, learning to sit with the uncomfortable truth of his fragile ego and how he would do almost anything to cover that anxiety or for somebody else to soothe that anxiety. So exposure therapy and DBT, because I think that all people with narcissistic personality disorder really missed some of the cornerstones that DBT can teach you, like emotion regulation, distress tolerance, interpersonal effectiveness. I think they're missing all of those. Mindfulness, I think they're missing all of those. They didn't learn them along the way because they learned very early on to get their needs met. They had to manipulate and that worked for them, so they never stopped manipulating. They never learned how to tolerate distress. They never learned how to regulate their own emotions. They just expect somebody else to feed that fragile ego and they keep manipulating to get that need met. They don't really worry about meeting their own needs. They never meet their own needs. Rebecca Christianson [22:09]: So some exposure, where they are sitting, not literally naked, but emotionally naked and being able to force them to regulate those emotions, and learn skills, then, to regulate those emotions ... And interpersonal effectiveness is really fascinating, the few times that I've been able to teach that to a narcissist, because they think they are very interpersonally effective because they always get their needs met. But what they don't realize is that they burn through, it's in an abusive way, so even though they think are getting their needs met, they're just chewing up and spitting out somebody else. They're not actually meeting that need and ... Alyssa Scolari [22:58]: Right. They're not fostering any genuine connections. Rebecca Christianson [23:01]: Nope. And so that's always fascinating. I think they can. I think typically, it's too painful for them and so I feel like that's why it has to take a life threatening illness or some tragedy for them to get this ... Not always, I mean, but ... Alyssa Scolari [23:23]: Yeah. For the listeners out there who might not know what DBT is, that term might be new. I'm trying to think of a good way to summarize what DBT is. I love DBT and I used to hate it, but your girl loves it now. DBT is a type of therapy. It stands for dialectical behavioral therapy and that is really a fancy term for ... Dialectical, that term in itself means that both can exist, the good and the bad, living in the dialectic, where all of it can be true and you can sit with it. Would you agree with that or am I off on that definition? Rebecca Christianson [24:08]: Yeah. No, I think that's spot on. It's a set of skills. Alyssa Scolari [24:13]: Yeah. DBT is really heavy with skills that, again, teach you how to effectively communicate with other people, how to deal with your emotions if your emotions are feeling so intense and out of control. Anything else? I feel like that sums it up. It's teaching you basic life skills. But when I say basic, things that we really all need because nobody gets enough of it, like learning how to foster good relationships, learning about boundaries, learning about empathy, learning about self-compassion for yourself, taking care of yourself emotionally, things like that. Rebecca Christianson [24:55]: And learning how to relate authentically. I think understanding how to relate your intent and have it land the way you want it to land and mindfulness, being mindful. I think lots of things have impacted our ability to be mindful, our phones, social media, immediate gratification, so those have all impacted our ability to be mindful, so that's what DBT is. It's skills training to learn skills related to those concepts that we all need, that we all need to have. Alyssa Scolari [25:34]: That we all need, exactly. Exactly. And then so going back to what you were saying about narcissists and what will cause them to get treatment, absolutely. And I work with a lot of teenagers and young adults. I work with people of all ages, but most of my practice is filled with lots of teenagers and young adults. And I will also see that parents who are narcissists will only go to therapy after their child has gone no contact or has said, in a case of parents who are divorced, if the child lives with dad and dad is the narcissist, they're like, "I'm going to live with mom. That's it, I'm done," and that is what will land a parent in therapy. My teens or my young adults will come in and they'll be like, "Well, now all of a sudden, my mom is in therapy. I've been asking her for five years to go to therapy when I was living with her. I move out and suddenly she's in therapy." Alyssa Scolari [26:34]: But often what I find, too, with some narcissists is that if they do go to therapy, they will often seek out a therapist who they can also manipulate and who will validate them. I've seen a lot of the parents of my kids go to therapy and then they'll come home and they'll be like, "Well, my therapist thinks that you are being B, B, B, B, B, B, blah." Now, whether or not the therapist actually said that, who knows, but the narcissist's interpretation of therapy can often be to their benefit and then sometimes it can be another tool in their arsenal that they can use against their child. I'm sure you've seen that sometimes, right? Rebecca Christianson [27:17]: Yes, absolutely. Yep. It can be another tool that they use, like, "Well, my therapist said," but that therapist is getting one viewpoint. And I always think as a therapist, if it looks really simple, there's probably more to the story. If it looks like, "Oh, this person is the best parent in the world. Why would there be a problem? It must be the other parent or the child or whatever," that I feel like you're probably not getting the whole story. And the other time I think that narcissists show up in therapy is in couples therapy, when they're on the brink of divorce. And the person that they have abused is finally leaving or has left or has filed for divorce or whatever and they're scared, so that is always really difficult to mediate in couples therapy. Alyssa Scolari [28:27]: So hard. Rebecca Christianson [28:29]: Yep, really difficult. Alyssa Scolari [28:31]: It's so hard. So one last question that I'm curious to know your opinion on is if somebody is listening to this out there right now and they're like, "Oh my gosh, I think that I have a narcissist in my life. I think that I have somebody in my life who is a narcissist." Would you recommend that they say it to the person that they think is a narcissist and say, "You need to go get help." Have you ever seen that that has been effective? Rebecca Christianson [29:08]: No, I don't. I don't think a narcissist is going to take that and that critique and become suddenly self-aware and less selfish. I think that they're going to be verbally abusive to the person who says, "I think you're a narcissist." So I think that if somebody thinks that they're in a relationship with a narcissist and they want to stay in the relationship, they should consider couples counseling because I would let the professional point that out. Rebecca Christianson [29:53]: And I think that's the only time that maybe they might be, if they have a connection to a therapist and feel like that therapist understands or at least has the good of the relationship and is their priority, then there's a chance that they might listen that some of their traits. I rarely think that calling a narcissist a narcissist is a good idea. I really don't think, even as a therapist. I usually just identify the traits, like, "Can you understand how that feels self-serving? Can you understand how that can be really construed as there's a flavor of arrogance in that?" I feel like that's much more palatable to a narcissist than being like, "I think you're a narcissist. You should ..." I just feel like that's aggressive. Alyssa Scolari [30:53]: Yes, absolutely. Rebecca Christianson [30:53]: So I feel like pointing out the traits ... That's not to say that I haven't said, "I think that you have a lot of narcissistic traits." I just don't always say that till I formed a relationship where they trust me enough that I can say that and they'll actually receive it as constructive. Alyssa Scolari [31:17]: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Well, thank you so much for joining [crosstalk 00:31:26] part two with me. Rebecca Christianson [31:26]: Yes. Always a pleasure. Alyssa Scolari [31:27]: This is one of my, I don't know. I'm very passionate about talking about this. I love it. And I also think that narcissism can be really overused and I think it's one of those words that people just throw out there very lightly, but it's actually really, really damaging. So, just like we talked about, if you are listening and you resonate with this and you feel like you have a narcissist in your life, you could potentially be opening yourself up to being hurt and opening yourself up to more abuse if you do directly confront that person and say, "Hey, I think you're a narcissist." And I think that either couples counseling or if it's a parent or if you're in a relationship and you don't want to continue the relationship or you don't know, get help for yourself because ultimately, that is all we can do, is help ourselves. We can't change people. So I think that's really important to keep in mind because when we are in relationships, we love other people and we want to see that other person get help, but you simply can't and you have to come first. Alyssa Scolari [32:39]: So thank you so much for joining me today. Rebecca Christianson [32:42]: Absolutely. Always a pleasure. Alyssa Scolari [32:45]: Thank you. I hope that everybody has a wonderful week. Hang in there. I know times are tough right now. I will be back next week with another episode. And until then, I will be holding you all in the light. Alyssa Scolari [33:00]: Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks, so please head on over. Again, that's paton.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

What is narcissism and how do we know if someone is a narcissist?  Alyssa teams up with returning podcast guest, Rebecca Christianson, LCSW as they tackle this very important topic.  Learn more about Rebecca Christianson, LCSW   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma   Transcript   Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hello, beautiful people. Welcome back to another episode of The Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. This is a two part, well, really a two part series. This is going to be two episodes today, and it is a guest episode. It has been a while since we've had a guest episode. I know that we he had talked about me sort of reeling back on guest episodes and being much more particular with who's coming on the show, just because I know that you all are really interested and have really, really liked the solo episodes that I've done. Alyssa Scolari [00:57]: But you all also love today's guest, who is a friend of the family, friend of the podcast, it's Rebecca Christianson. Duh, would it be anyone else? We love Rebecca. She has been on this podcast to talk about grief. She's been on the podcast to talk about guilt and shame, and she's incredible. Alyssa Scolari [01:19]: Today she's on the podcast to talk about narcissism. And I know this one's going to be a really big hit for you all because narcissism is honestly a very hot term right now. It is a really hot topic. It is all over TikTok, all over social media. But before we dive right into narcissism, I just want to take a minute to let you know who Rebecca is. Alyssa Scolari [01:41]: If you are a new listener, Rebecca really started out as a mentor for me and became, honestly, one of my closest friends. She's absolutely a soulmate of mine. We were absolutely meant to know each other in this life and every other life after that. And she really is the reason why I am the therapist that I am today. Alyssa Scolari [02:05]: So Rebecca is the founder of a group practice called Rebellious Wellness Counseling in the state of New Jersey in the United States. And I will, of course, link her group practice. She works with a bunch of wonderful people. She does amazing work. She is, especially you do a lot of grief, right? Like that's like you special when I think of you, I think like you do grief, but you also do couples, right? Rebecca Christianson [02:33]: Yes. Alyssa Scolari [02:34]: Yeah. Rebecca Christianson [02:34]: Yes. Alyssa Scolari [02:35]: Rebecca does two of the hardest things that I think any therapist can do. So I will absolutely link her group practice in the show notes for today. So let's just hand it over to Rebecca. Welcome. Rebecca Christianson [02:51]: Thank you. Thanks for having me. You always say the nicest things. You are the therapist that you are because you are extremely talented and work really hard, but thank you for giving me credit for that. Alyssa Scolari [03:04]: All shucks. Thank you. Rebecca Christianson [03:05]: Yeah. So I am always honored to be on the podcast. I love, obviously, I love talking to you. I love tackling some of these topics that I think are complex topics that everybody has to handle, but don't always understand exactly how to handle it or how it affects their lives. So I'm happy to be on it. Alyssa Scolari [03:27]: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And we make a really good team, which is why I feel like tackling narcissism today is like, you and I are really, really well suited to do this together because it's a really heavy topic, right? Rebecca Christianson [03:42]: Yep. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Alyssa Scolari [03:43]: And it's something that I think gets talked about a lot, but also often very misused and overused. And so I think here's an interesting fact for y'all, right? So the word narcissism in itself is at actually derived from the Greek mythological figure, Narcissus. And basically the story of Narcissus is that he fell in love with his own reflection. And what narcissism is at its core is really just self-absorption but pathological self absorption. Alyssa Scolari [04:21]: So that's where the name comes from. And I think when it comes to narcissism, there's one way that therapists diagnose it. But then there's an entirely different way that I think you guys can understand it and recognize it in others. And that's kind of a little bit more important. Alyssa Scolari [04:48]: So the way that therapists diagnose it is, obviously, you all have heard of the DSM. I've talked about it on this podcast before. It's like the holy grail for mental health diagnoses. It's what therapists turn to in order to diagnose somebody. And there is a personality disorder in there called Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And this is how therapists would really diagnose somebody. And really what it is it's this pattern of grandiosity. Alyssa Scolari [05:23]: They just, people, who think that they just have this huge amount of self importance. They often exaggerate their achievements and their talents. They are preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, or ideal love. They believe that they are super special and unique and that they are very high status and everyone else is below them. They require excessive admiration. They constantly need other people to be doting on them and thinking that they are just the bees knees. Alyssa Scolari [06:01]: They have an extreme sense of self entitlement, very unreasonable expectations, and they always think that they should be favored above everyone else. They exploit people, especially those who are closest to them. In other words, they try to take advantage of the people around them to meet their own needs. And they lack empathy. They cannot identify with feelings or needs of others and they often can seem very arrogant, right? Alyssa Scolari [06:33]: So that's a very brief run through of what those symptoms look like in the book that therapists use to diagnose. But it's a little bit different when we're just in our day to day life. So Rebecca, can you actually talk about, I don't know. I feel like what I just said was a very hoity-toity way of describing narcissism. Can you break this down? What does that actually look like day to day? Rebecca Christianson [07:02]: Yes, absolutely. I think that one of the things that's important to remember about narcissist is that underneath it all, it's a very, very fragile ego and that extremely, extremely fragile ego, came from somewhere, right? Oftentimes it comes from childhood trauma. Oftentimes it comes from neglect or abuse where a child doesn't get their needs met. So they have to manipulate to get their own needs met and they build this wall or protection around that very fragile ego. And no one can see the fragile ego at any cost. So they will always externally get their needs met instead of getting their needs met from within. Rebecca Christianson [07:55]: That would be... The only thing that was really healing for them is to go in and process through the things that made that ego so fragile. But they, at a very young age, protect that fragile ego at all costs. At all costs. At the cost to anyone else their needs will always come first and that the hallmark of a narcissist. Rebecca Christianson [08:14]: So I'm going to quote Shahida Arabi who wrote, Becoming the Narcissist Nightmare, because this is my favorite quote about narcissist. It says, "The first thing you must know about a narcissist is that you will never truly know anything about the narcissist." Alyssa Scolari [08:30]: Ugh. Yes, yes. That's it, case closed. End of episode. Rebecca Christianson [08:37]: Closed, there you go. You'll never really know. And I really believe that because they don't know. They've created such a false self that they don't even remember why they became a narcissist. One of the questions I get all the time is like, "Can a narcissist heal? Can they get better?" And the answer to that's, yes. Rarely do they do the work that's required to get better, but they can. But that would be going back to the childhood trauma, whatever happened that made them realize that they felt they needed to manipulate their environment to get their needs met, that they were not lovable enough to get their needs met just by being who they were. Rebecca Christianson [09:29]: And that's so painful. Usually by the time they show up in our office, that's so painful that they rarely do that. But the times that I've seen narcissists actually do that work is either they have a terminal illness, and because they have never truly been able to connect authentically with anyone, they don't have very many people who are going to take care of them. Or they've had such a traumatic loss in their life that it's shocked them to their core. And they don't want to continue to live that way. Rebecca Christianson [10:03]: So, those are the times. But I think how it would show up, you said a lot of the things, I think that when you notice somebody has the inability to empathize with you or with other people at all, like if you have a friend that's a narcissist and you tell them they have the inability to empathize, but they understand people, so they can fake empathy. They can... Alyssa Scolari [10:30]: Yes. They're typically very, very charming. Rebecca Christianson [10:34]: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Alyssa Scolari [10:34]: But when it comes to empathy, it could look like you confide in a friend about something and or you tell a friend something, right? And if that friend goes, "Oh, well they deserved it. They deserved it. They had that coming." Right? Or it could be, this person responds in a way that's like completely ignores what you're talking about and shifts the focus onto them. "Oh, well, when I was that age, it was even harder for me. Babababa." Rebecca Christianson [11:07]: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Alyssa Scolari [11:07]: Yeah. Rebecca Christianson [11:07]: Yep. Or they will fake empathy if they think that's going to get them something. So they'll be like, "Oh, that was a hard day at work." And like this, whatever it is, because they think that they're going to get something out of that. So sometimes they'll fake empathy to get their own need met at the end of the day. And then if that doesn't happen, they get angry. So the inability to authentically apologize, see hallmark up. You notice that somebody cannot take accountability. They will skirt accountability for something that they have done that has hurt the other person or isn't right or whatever. They cannot authentically apologize. Rebecca Christianson [11:47]: You said this before, but it will always be somebody else's fault. There will always be a reason why they cannot take accountability and authentically apologize. Also hallmark of when you notice that with someone that you're around or involved with, that's definitely a hallmark sign. And then if you confront them, they become extremely angry. Rebecca Christianson [12:11]: In fact, there's a term called Narcissistic Rage. And that's if they perceive their ego as being challenged, some people have narcissistic rage. And then you did a podcast earlier that I listened to about gaslighting. This is where gaslighting comes in. They're unable to take accountability. So they will gaslight at all costs. And it becomes, because they're usually extremely bright and charming, it can become almost impossible to pick up on the gaslighting. Rebecca Christianson [12:47]: Some people are so good at that, that your head is spinning and you don't even understand what just happened. It's not until you tell somebody outside of that interaction or relationship that they might be able to see, "I think they were gaslighting you." Because it's real, some people become really good, they become professionals at not taking accountability. Rebecca Christianson [13:14]: And the thing about, again, they're very intuitive, very perceptive, very charming, and very bright. So they will learn things about you, your Achilles heel, your soft spots, and that's where they're going to hit. So when they gaslight you, it's not going to be always about the actual thing they're not taking accountability for. They're going to gaslight you and hit where they know it hurts so that you will be blindsided, taken off guard, all these other things. So ultimately they don't have to take accountability. Rebecca Christianson [13:47]: I think those, and then you mentioned self-absorbed, always bringing the conversation back to themselves. I feel like if you're in a relationship or a friendship or a work relationship with somebody who has more than one of those characteristics, they are probably a narcissist. Alyssa Scolari [14:05]: Red flags, red flags, red flags, red flags. Yeah. And I think gaslighting is the narcissists best friend. Best friend, that is their biggest tool. And as you're kind of saying all this, I feel like now's a really good time to read the Narcissist's Prayer. So this perfectly, for the listeners out there, reflects everything that Rebecca is saying and then some. It's like, The narcissist's prayer is, and by the way I did not write this. And I actually don't know who wrote this. I tried to look it up and there's a couple different versions of it, but I don't know. It says the author is unknown when it comes to this specific version of it. Alyssa Scolari [14:50]: But the Narcissist's Prayer is, "That didn't happen. And if it did, it is not a big deal. And if it was a big deal, then it was not my fault. And if it was my fault, well, then I didn't mean it. And if I did mean it, then you deserved it. Now this conversation is over. I am done talking about it." Rebecca Christianson [15:12]: I think that says it perfectly. And so many people, here's the thing about narcissists, right? So many people, as you were saying, all of the kind of DSM-IV criteria, I think two things. I think one on a bad day, we all feel selfish, right? It's normal to have moments of time where we feel selfish, that's normal. But we feel remorse and regret when that selfishness might have been at the expense of someone else. But there's remorse, there's guilt or shame. Rebecca Christianson [15:48]: Narcissists do not feel guilt or shame for that. They are self-absorbed to a pathological point, and you said that in the beginning and I wanted to reiterate that, they're not just having a selfish day. They're not just self-absorbed about the promotion they want at work. It's a way of living for them. It's to a pathological point. Rebecca Christianson [16:11]: And I think we all have narcissist in our lives and it's hard. It's hard because when you get close to, and I know Part Two is going to be more about the relationship with the narcissist, but when you get close to putting up a boundary with a narcissist, they love bomb. And when they love bomb, it feels as if they've heard you and they understand the error of their ways. Rebecca Christianson [16:36]: They don't say that because they can't take accountability. It just feels that way. And then you're hooked again. Then you're hooked again. And these characteristics will show up again. So if you think you're in a relationship or have a friend or a work relationship where you're in, or you think they're a narcissist, and you start to point that out or you start to set different boundaries because that doesn't feel good, and they make you feel like they understand the error of their ways they want to change. But these show back up again, run, run because they're a narcissist. Alyssa Scolari [17:13]: Run far. Rebecca Christianson [17:14]: And they just love bombed you. And now you're going to be right back in the same cycle. And gaslighting is, I think, the number one way that narcissists manipulate, but they also use silent treatment. Alyssa Scolari [17:25]: Yes. Rebecca Christianson [17:26]: Silence actually sets off the same pain receptors as physical pain. Alyssa Scolari [17:33]: Oh, I did not know that. It makes sense. Rebecca Christianson [17:36]: It does. Giving someone the silent treatment sets off the same pain receptors as actual physical pain in our brain. It's so painful to be ignored, rejected, abandoned to feel those feelings to suddenly have silence. So it's also a huge manipulation tactic for narcissists. Rebecca Christianson [17:54]: Stonewalling, the end of the prayer that you read, "And I am done with this relationship," refusing to talk about things is also a huge manipulation tactic. And then comparison. So they need the attention from everyone, right? So they will often compare what you're giving to what other people, past girl friends, other people that they are in their lives can give them, can feed them. So another huge manipulation tactic is to compare what you're offering to other people, whether that's imagined or real, to get you to up your ante, to get you to do more. Alyssa Scolari [18:38]: Yeah. And I also think that another too, well, you mentioned the love bombing, right? And for folks out there who may not have heard of this phrase before or may have heard of it, and don't quite know what it is love bombing is, again, the narcissist isn't taking accountability for his or her or their actions, but they are showering you with gifts, showering you with affection, spending money, maybe money that they don't even have, on you. Alyssa Scolari [19:06]: Suddenly you have that Prada bag that you have always wanted. Suddenly they are paying for you to go on a trip. Suddenly, you've been asking for three years to go and visit, I don't know, the state of Vermont in the fall because it's beautiful and guess what? All of a sudden you're going there. And they might be showering with you with words of affection as well, "I love you. You're so important to me." They tell you everything, like Rebecca said, that you want to hear, that makes you think that they have taken accountability and seen the error of their ways. But without them actually having to say that, right? So that's love bombing. Alyssa Scolari [19:41]: But then the other thing that I always see with narcissists is their attempt at isolation, right? So yes, also the comparison, but they will also do this thing where they will make you feel like you're alone in the world. And they might say very subtle things like, "Oh, did you see the weird way your friend was looking at you there?" Rebecca Christianson [20:06]: Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [20:06]: Right? "Did you see the way she rolled her eyes when you guys were talking? Do you really think she's a good friend?" When I was in a relationship with a narcissist, he would tell me time and time again, that my family hated me, that they hated me. And after a while, and he wouldn't sit me down and say, "Alyssa, your family hates you." But it was very subtle. It would be, "Huh? Are you sure you're okay with the way your mom said this?" And, "Are you sure you don't feel some kind of way about the way your dad said that." And, "Oh, well, I heard that your friend, so and so, said this about you." These very seemingly small things that suddenly, before you know it, have you feeling like you can't trust anyone else, but the narcissist. Rebecca Christianson [20:53]: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Alyssa Scolari [20:54]: Do you agree with that? Did I explain that correctly? Rebecca Christianson [20:55]: I totally agree. Yes, I absolutely agree. They will... Until they're the only one that you trust, but they never, ever go, it's never going to actually be about you, it's always going to be about them. And the reason they do that is so that they don't have competition so that when you don't have anyone to say, "You know, he said or she said this to me." And for them to say, "That's gaslighting. They're gaslighting you." Or like, "That's not okay. They're breaking you down. You're not yourself." Rebecca Christianson [21:37]: Isolate you from everyone that can give you perspective, so that they are your only perspective, because they'll isolate you from anyone who can challenge them. Especially anyone whose smart enough to see what they're doing. Alyssa Scolari [21:54]: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Rebecca Christianson [21:56]: Yep. I think that whenever... Another kind of hallmark I feel like I see a lot in people who come in and they're in a relationship with a narcissist is, they want to change. If you feel like you want to change or teach the person you're in a relationship with something, like about being a decent human, if you feel like they just don't understand how to treat people properly or be nice or kind, right? Sometimes people will say, "I just don't think that they understand." It always is a red flag to me. My ears always perk up and I start to listen because you shouldn't have to teach a normal person how to be decent and respect people. If you're in an adult relationship, you shouldn't have to, that's something that you teach toddlers. That's not something that you should teach an adult. Rebecca Christianson [22:54]: They should know that. That should be... So if you feel that way, be careful, because narcissists can't learn that. Alyssa Scolari [23:04]: Yes. Rebecca Christianson [23:04]: They do not get something from being inherently kind. If they're kind it's to feed their ego. It's to get something fed. It's not just about, it's never about the other person. So that's something else. It's like a hallmark in relationships when you feel like, "Oh, I just don't think they... They just don't understand how they come across." They know exactly how they come across and they're being an asshole to your friends because they don't want you to be in those friendships because those people are picking up on the fact that they're a narcissist. So it's all manipulation. Alyssa Scolari [23:41]: Absolutely. 1000%. 1000%. I think you make a really good point there. And I think before we wrap up with this Part One today, and we're going to get into more on the next episode about some differences between covert and an overt narcissists and what does narcissistic abuse look like in the victim? What are some of the longterm effects of that? What does treatment look like? We're going to talk about that in the next episode, but I also, before we close out, I really wanted to say that it's important for you guys to remember out there that this narcissism is defined by a pattern. Because you could take any one of these things in an isolated incident, and it might not necessarily mean somebody is a narcissist, right? Alyssa Scolari [24:27]: Like Rebecca said, we all have selfish tendencies. Being selfish isn't a bad thing at times, right? We all can be self-absorbed. So in an isolated incident, I don't want you to see this and then think immediately of this podcast and go, "Oh my gosh, this must be a narcissist." Because that's not necessarily the case. It is a pattern, a consistent pattern, so please keep that in mind. Alyssa Scolari [24:54]: And with that being said, I think, unless there's anything else you wanted to add today, Rebecca, I feel like this might be a good place to wrap up with this episode. And then... Rebecca Christianson [25:09]: I think that's great. I think that in our next episode, I want to touch a little bit on, this is something you and I talked about, the covert versus overt narcissist. I do think a lot of times, there are like closet narcissist and sometimes that gets missed and people are in unhealthy relationships. But we can definitely start with that, pick that up, next time. Rebecca Christianson [25:32]: And then start to talk about, there is some interesting characteristics that narcissists look for in people. I think sometimes victims of narcissists feel like there must be something wrong with them, but actually narcissists choose really intelligent victims. And they choose people who have really good qualities that are usually very intelligent. That'll also be a great topic to pick up with next time. Alyssa Scolari [25:58]: Perfect. So at that, I think we are going to wrap up and we will be back with the second part of this series next week. And if you are enjoying what you're hearing and you're enjoying the podcast, please do not forget to leave us a review. Reviews are incredibly important. They help us to continue to grow and that is the goal. We can get people to be aware that they have access to free mental health support and education through the podcast. And we do that by continuing to grow. Alyssa Scolari [26:33]: And if you are a patron on Patreon, don't forget that you can also message me directly through Patreon and you can make episode requests if there's a specific topic that you would like to hear, please feel free to do that. And if you are not a Patreon member yet, please feel free, if you are able to do so to sign up, to become a member. And anything that you are able to give towards the podcast would go a really long way in terms of helping the podcast to pay for itself and helping us to pay for all the different types of things that we do to be able to make this podcast what it is. Alyssa Scolari [27:13]: So thank you all so much. I am holding you in the light and I will see you next week. Alyssa Scolari [27:19]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com. Or you can also follow us on social media, on Instagram we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Alyssa Scolari [27:36]: Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

Diet culture and weight loss tools thrive off of making us hate our bodies. The good news is that you CAN reject the societal pressure to change your body and choose to love your body instead. In this week's episode, Alyssa breaks down the necessary steps toward loving the body you have.    Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma   Transcript: Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hi Everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host Alyssa Scolari, happy to be here for another solo episode. It is a beautiful day that I am recording. The weather is heating up and with the warm weather, I have noticed not just in my private practice but also really just on social media, in general, and the people around me, the conversation is shifting to how can I get in the best shape possible for the warmer weather for summer, for shorts and skirts and short sleeve shirts and things like that. And so I will likely be putting out an episode like this every year when the weather warms up because we need it. Alyssa Scolari [01:16]: We are talking today about how to improve your body image, which is a really hard thing to do. We know that our society pushes thinness, thinness, thinness and diets and eating healthy and losing as much weight as you can. And well, honestly, of course they do. Because it might shock you to realize this but the diet industry alone in the year 2021, grossed $254.9 billion. And even worse than that, by the year 2026, it is projected to gross $377.3 billion. So, of course, they're pushing diets because they are making big bucks off of it. Now, a lot of people will say that this isn't true. Alyssa Scolari [02:21]: Diet is in the name of health and higher weight can be correlated with the onset of so many different diseases. And to that, I will say, there is a large body of research out there showing that this simply is not true. And that many of these studies that found that information, the way these studies were conducted were basically set up in a way to achieve that similar result, right? To achieve that result that they were expecting. That yep, that's what we know. Having fat on your body means that you're going to have disease and then eventually you're going to die an early death. Alyssa Scolari [03:02]: That is actually not true and we have a very outdated way of looking at things. I mean, for the love of God, our doctors in the United States ... I don't know about other countries but the doctors in the United States are still using the BMI, which is the body mass index, which basically takes your weight and your height and does a calculation and spits out whether you are obese or not and the level of your obesity and how at risk you are. We know now that the BMI is flawed in so many ways. Number one, because it doesn't tell you anything about body composition. Alyssa Scolari [03:44]: It is just assuming, based on your height and weight, that you are all fat. If the number on the scale is higher, then that must be fat. Therefore, you are unhealthy and therefore you need to do something. So the BMI has been telling people for years, that people who are healthy need to lose weight and it is something that doctors have not seen a problem with. Well, I should say most doctors haven't seen a problem with. And it is something that our diet industry hasn't seen a problem with because dieting is a huge money maker. Now it might be a money maker but it also was a soul breaker, it literally rips our souls apart. Alyssa Scolari [04:29]: Especially for those of us who live in larger bodies like myself. I am a self-identified fat person and I can tell you through years of battling an eating disorder, I have been up 120 pounds, down 120 pounds. And at my thinnest, I felt my worst physically. At my heaviest, I felt my best physically. I feel my best physically right now in my body as a fat person. Yes, I do. I have had blood work. I have been to doctor after doctor, all who have said that my blood work looks healthy. My blood pressure, healthy. Cholesterol, healthy. Everything is good but I am a fat person. Alyssa Scolari [05:15]: And this startles people because they're like, "Well, how can you be fat and healthy?" Because we have been taught that the two are opposites, that they cannot exist at the same time. That if you're fat, you must be unhealthy. You must have a problem with eating. This is not necessarily the case. There is so much research that shows that this is not at all true. Now this isn't necessarily the topic of today's episode, right? We are not going to talk about fat phobia today, touching on it a little bit. What we are going to talk about today is how to love yourself in spite of the bullshit that society is pushing on you, about you are only worthy if you are thin and starving. Alyssa Scolari [06:03]: How can you love yourself if you are trying to break up with diet culture and you are trying to figure out how to love the body that you are in? This episode is for you because it is one of hardest things when we are living in a society that is seething with fat phobia. It is ubiquitous everywhere you turn, even just social media, right? Even if you're following E! News on Instagram, which is basically the news outlet for all of the celebrities. I mean, they are so quick to post when somebody gains five pounds, loses five pounds, as if it's the only thing that matters. Alyssa Scolari [06:48]: So learning to love yourself in the society is hard. And if you are somebody who lives in a larger body or who has been struggling with diets your whole life, then you likely also have a history of food related trauma. And that can also make it really hard to love your body. If you are an abuse survivor, sexual abuse, physical abuse, that can also make it really hard for you to love your body. And the warmer months are upon us depending on where you live in the world and people are wanting to wear things with less material that covers less of their bodies and that is causing so much anxiety. It is causing people to buy into more and more diets. Alyssa Scolari [07:37]: And what I want to say is this, if you are going to spend your money this summer, don't spend it on a diet, spend it on learning how to love yourself because that is going to be the most important thing. So how do we do this? How do we love ourselves? How do we love the bodies that we're in? This can be really, really difficult, as I said. It's been a journey for me and it's something that I work on every single day. And this year, in particular, I am really committed to respecting my body and loving my body, regardless of what the number on the scale says. I haven't stepped on the scale in months. I have no clue what it says and I don't plan to step on the scale. Alyssa Scolari [08:21]: My goal is to respect and love my body, regardless, even though I have no control over what it's doing. I am just listening to it. I am feeding it when it tells me to, I am moving when it tells me I need to move and I am learning how to be okay with that. And we are going to talk about how you can be okay with that, as well. Now this is a process. You cannot wake up tomorrow and expect that you are going to be like, "Oh wow, I love my body. This is great." No, it doesn't work like that, unfortunately, right? Because we cannot erase years of self hatred and body loathing in a day. And for some people it might feel too overwhelming. The thought of having to love your body might feel too overwhelming. Alyssa Scolari [09:08]: So we are going to take this in bite size pieces and help you learn how to respect and love the body that you are in. And first we start with simply noticing. Because I would bet that for so many of us and myself included, we don't even recognize how much negative self-talk exists in our brains. Like we look in the mirror and we're like, "Ugh. Oh, I hate this about myself. Oh my gosh, look at my neck. Oh, look at my arms. Look at that. Oh my gosh. When did that get there?" Or, "Oh, look at my stomach. Oh, I can't wear these jeans," right? This is some of the dialogue that goes on in our head all day long. Alyssa Scolari [09:50]: "Oh, I really shouldn't be eating this. I really should not be eating this brownie right now. This is so bad. I am going to step on this scale, I'm going to find out that I gained weight tomorrow." It is constant. It's really hard to have any kind of respect for your body when you are constantly talking like crap to your body, right? And that's what we're going for first and foremost, we are going for a basic level of respect. Because like I said, we can't expect that you're going to love yourself right away. But we do have to have you respect yourself first and foremost, but we can't fix a problem if we don't know the problem is there. Alyssa Scolari [10:27]: So first we have to recognize when we are treating ourselves like crap. And so it can just be a goal for you to pay more attention to the dialogue in your head. And if you need a place to start, start with the morning. Start with when you're getting dressed in the morning. I want you to be very, very particular about noticing the thoughts that are popping up in your head about when you're getting dressed. What are you telling yourself about how you look? Are you thinking to myself? "Oh well, I'll look so much better in these pants when I'm five pounds thinner?" Alyssa Scolari [11:04]: Are you thinking to yourself, "Oh, I can't wear this." What are you saying to yourself? I know for me, that is something I have struggled with so much. The mornings are hard for me or they used to be really hard when I would go to get dressed, right? "Oh, I can't wear this. I don't look good in this." Fortunately for me, that noise has died down a lot. So I do not struggle with that as much, but that is because I have been working hard on trying to notice when these thoughts are coming up and that is what you have to do. And when you are noticing them, you don't need to judge them, just notice them at first, that's it. Alyssa Scolari [11:46]: And if that's all you can do right now, that is okay. I do not want you to try to essentially run before you can crawl, so to speak. You know? So it's going to be really, really hard for you to notice these thoughts and then immediately go into, "Oh no, but I love myself." Because for a lot of people that feels not very sincere and some people, like the fake it till you make at mentality and if that works for you, great. But I find that with body positivity and with improving your body image, that doesn't work so well. So all I need you to do is notice without judgment, that is first and foremost. Alyssa Scolari [12:26]: Because, again, we can't change a problem that we don't know is there. So it's very important for you to notice all the ways in which you are disrespecting yourself, disrespecting the body that you live in. So next, once you have spent a couple of weeks or months just noticing how you talk to yourself, you're going to try to respect your body a little bit. Just a little bit, a little bit of respect. Notice the things about your body that you haven't said to yourself. For example, it can be as simple as, I am really appreciative that my body allowed me to move through my day today and spend time with my friends, partner, children, coworkers, colleagues, et cetera. It can be as simple as that. Alyssa Scolari [13:24]: Wow, I am really grateful for the way my body feels when I am taking a walk outside in the warm sunny weather. It could be as simple as that. It could also be as simple as, I notice the way that my body has full mobility, if you are somebody with full mobility, right? The way that my feet can hit the ground in the morning and I can get up and I can walk into the bathroom and I can use both of my arms to brush my teeth, right? Things like that, keep it very simple. It is a level of respect. Have you ever had a teacher in school that you didn't really like because they were kind of a hard ass, but you also respected them. So you knew better than to say anything bad about them or mouth off to them. Alyssa Scolari [14:18]: That's kind of the way you want to treat your body in these early stages, right? You don't have to like your body. You don't have to look in the mirror and go, "Aw, I love my arms and my ... No, no, no, no. Because for some people that's too much, that's not where you're at right now. But there is a level of respect that you can try to give your body. For me, I think that dialogue looks more like, I am really appreciative body that you helped me to survive so much trauma for all of these years. And I think if you are a trauma survivor, this is definitely going to ring true for you. Alyssa Scolari [14:58]: My dialogue also looks like, I am really grateful that I was able to go in my backyard and let the sun warm my skin and to be able to experience that sensation. I'm really grateful that I have the mobility to be able to bend down and plant things in my yard because my yard is going to be looking slamming in a couple weeks. I am really grateful that my body allowed me to enjoy that meal that I just had. We had Chick-fil-A yesterday. It was the first time I've been to Chick-fil-A in six months and we rarely go but we were on the way home from a doctor's appointment and we stopped and we got some chicken and we were waiting in line and there were people around me that were all much thinner than me. Very, very thin. Alyssa Scolari [16:05]: And I was really in the comparison game. I shouldn't be eating this. I should not be eating this, right? I'm shoulding myself, like hello, big red flag, Alyssa. So I was not able to love myself in that moment because I was filled with a lot of just body dysmorphia and some body loathing. But I was able to respect myself and I was able to say, "I am really grateful that I was able to even get up and walk in here and I'm really grateful that my body has been able to communicate to me that I'm hungry and that I need food. And I'm also really grateful that I am able to go out and I am able to buy a meal on a whim." Alyssa Scolari [16:48]: All of these things of gratitude that I was trying to say in my head, mostly centered around, I am thankful that my body led me to this spot and that my body is going to do exactly what I need it to do. All I need to do is listen to it. And in listening to it, I could understand that in that moment, that food was what I needed. That is what my body was telling me. That is what I wanted. That is what I needed. And therefore I got that and I was able to enjoy my meal so much more afterwards. So it is a basic level of respect. Once you are able to start respecting your body in little ways here and there, then it might be to time for you to move into a stage of reflection. Alyssa Scolari [17:39]: And what I mean by that is going back and visiting some of the disrespectful things you have said about your body. Going back and visiting some of the ways that you feel about the body that you live in and reflect on them. Why do I feel this way? Do I feel this way because this is reminding me of an incident when I was younger, where somebody told me that I was fat or somebody told me I needed to lose weight? Is this related to some kind of trauma in my life? Is this related to systemic marginalization against fat people, wherein, I have always felt that I have been stigmatized because of my body and therefore have internalized that? Where might this be from? Alyssa Scolari [18:34]: Because sometimes it's helpful to know that and maybe it's not, right? Maybe this is something where you skip that stage. But for me, it was really helpful to figure out, why do I feel this way? Why do I feel like I can't wear this outfit? Is it because I tried to wear an outfit very similar to this back in the day and somebody told me I should never go out looking like this? Is it just because society and the way that they treat fat people as a whole? And when I'm able to identify the source of the disrespect, it's actually easier for me to dismiss because I can tell and it becomes very apparent to me that my self-hatred actually has nothing to do with me. I don't actually hate me. Alyssa Scolari [19:21]: I learned that I have to hate myself because of the way I was treated when I was younger or the way that society treats my body, it's actually not me. And when I realized that the problem really isn't me, I am able to move through those thoughts much easier and get back to a place of self love and self respect. So I think that reflection is really important for me. It might not necessarily be for you but it is something to experiment with, reflect. Where did these thoughts come from? Where do I see this at? Am I looking at social media and seeing people constantly talking about how they are working out for weight loss or dieting or wanting to get in shape for the summer? Is that where I'm getting it from? Just some things to ask yourself. Alyssa Scolari [20:09]: And then with that reflection comes disputing, right? So again, if you are noticing, "Oh, this actually comes from a time when I was younger." And I know for me, a lot of my fears about eating in front of people comes from when I was younger and people would point out my food assumption when I was a little girl but then also directly related to my body. Like people would smack my hand when I would go to get second helpings at the dinner table at a family party. Or if I would go and get a piece of cake at a baby shower or bridal shower or whatever, somebody would say something, like yell across the room about my weight and my body. Alyssa Scolari [20:56]: So when I recognize things like that, I can dispute that and I can say, "Okay, that was a comment that was not about me. That was based on that person's own insecurities, their own internalized fat phobia and it actually has nothing to do with me or my body." If I am exercising and I'm feeling really triggered by my exercise and I'm like, "Oh, I wonder if I lost weight from this workout or whatever," I might be like, "Huh, where does that come from?" And then I can identify where it comes from. And then I'm like, "Okay, but in reality, I know that exercise is not a weight loss tool." Alyssa Scolari [21:39]: And I know that when I was being told that it was, these people did not know they were so rooted in their own fat phobia and diet culture that they did not know. And therefore, I can try to let these beliefs go for myself. So I am able to use science and facts about weight to be able to dispute my beliefs. And then the final step is choosing to love yourself. It is a choice and it is a choice that you must practice time and time again. And here is where I can say sometimes a little bit of that, fake it till you make it can work, because there are times where I have a really hard time loving my body. Alyssa Scolari [22:32]: But I say, you know what? I'm going to choose to love you today. I'm going to choose to. I don't necessarily feel love right now, but love is what I'm choosing. And then I have to go into starting from a baseline of respect. And then from there I can build up love. What does that look like? What does love look like? It looks like an appreciation. It looks like being able to touch all of the parts of your body, even the parts that you really struggle with the most and say, "Hi." I mean, really, as silly as that sounds, say hi to the parts of you that you have been avoiding for so long. Alyssa Scolari [23:19]: Notice it, understand what your body has done for you to be able to get you to the place where you are now and learn to develop an appreciation for it. And almost like a wonder, it is a wonder for me that my body has survived so much. It has gotten me through so much. And what, I'm going to sit here and I'm going to hate it simply because of how it looks because society has told me that I'm supposed to hate myself, fuck that. This body has gotten me through so much trauma, all of the worst days of my life. And yeah, there are times where my body and I have been at odds, right? My endometriosis battle, it's been rough. Alyssa Scolari [24:07]: And I am now learning how to love my body after that because what I see now is that my body is the greatest teacher. My body knows all the questions I have, right? Oh well, what weight should I be? You know, what do I need to eat today? How much water do I need to have? My body already has the answers to that. I don't need to be asking those questions. All I have to do is think less, talk less and listen more because my body is so wise and so is yours. And from understanding that, I have learned to develop a love for my body because I'm not going to let stigma be the reason I hate myself. I'm not going to let stigma be the reason I feel like I can't go out and enjoy myself during these warm months ahead. Alyssa Scolari [25:05]: And I truly hope it can be this way for you. So these are the steps. Notice, respect, reflect, dispute, love. They are not from anywhere special because I created these steps myself. This is what has helped me. This is what has helped so many of the people that I work with and this is what has helped so many other people who have struggled with their body image. And if you are struggling, I hope that this can help you. It is hard work and these steps aren't necessarily linear. You could finally get to a place of love and then something could happen and you could go right back to self hatred because self hatred is sort of a default for us. Alyssa Scolari [25:51]: So these steps aren't necessarily permanent, it's kind of cyclical. And it really depends on where you're at in life but these are the things that have helped me time and time again, to get to a place where I can be confident. And I really want that for you all, too. So I hope you have a wonderful week and I am holding you in the light and I will see you next week. Alyssa Scolari [26:18]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are at lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is at LightAfter pod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightafter trauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again that's patreon.com/light aftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support. Alyssa Scolari [26:55]: [singing].

Self sabotage often shows up at many points throughout our trauma recovery. It can take both conscious and unconscious forms. Tune in to find out if you may be sabotaging your own healing process.    Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma   Transcript:   Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: What's up everybody. It's Alyssa Scolari. I am your host of the Light After Trauma Podcast. Welcome back to another episode, talking about self-sabotage today. I'm very passionate about this one. Very passionate. I'm going to get real raw today and it's going to be really uncomfortable. Alyssa Scolari [00:45]: Trigger warning just upfront. We're going to be talking about some sexual abuse related stuff. Not the whole episode. So you can feel free to skip when I'm talking about it and yeah, that's what we got today. We're talking about self-sabotage. Alyssa Scolari [01:02]: Just some housekeeping things. Thank you, of course, as always for all of the love and the support. In case you missed it on the last episode, we raised $110 for Doctors Without Borders to help in Ukraine, which is so exciting. You can actually see the receipt for the donation on the Instagram. My Instagram is Light After Trauma. So feel free to go check it out. You can see the receipt, but if you signed up to become a Patreon member for the month of March, whatever you donated for that month, I matched with my own money. And then we sent that to Doctors Without Borders. So that was really fun. That was really awesome. And I can't wait to continue to do this for like other causes and charities and ah, it's good stuff. Good, good stuff. I'm super proud of us in our little community. So thank you. Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [01:58]: If you still want to become a Paton member, you can head on over to the show notes and that would extremely helpful. Anything you are able to give towards the podcast really helps keep this podcast up and running. So I appreciate it. Thank you for your also reviews and ratings. It helps the podcast to grow. It helps get the word out. So anytime you leave a review, it is extremely, extremely helpful and helps the podcast to move up in the ranks. And then when it moves up in the ranks, it becomes more available to people. So thank you. Thank you very much. And I think that's it. Alyssa Scolari [02:40]: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, that's not it. I did want to say you are all the best, you really are. Because last week's episode, when I was talking about my horror story with the EMDR therapist, some of you emailed me and gave me referrals to therapists in your area or therapists that you know of that you thought would be great. And I just love it. I'm so thankful for the support. I can't even begin to tell you how much it means to me. And it's also really nice to hear from you because I feel like I have a bunch of friends out there, but I don't necessarily have confirmation of that unless I hear from you in some way, shape or form. I don't know who you are unless you reach out to me. So I just love it when I hear from people. It's so much fun. I just feel like I have a bunch of friends. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Alyssa Scolari [03:43]: As an update on the EMDR front, the therapist that I had, and if you listened last week, you kind of know what happened. That the therapist I had ghosted me completely and it was horrible. After one session, I went back to our second session and he did not show up. And there's a little bit more to it, but you can feel free to listen to last week's episode if you want the details. So I reached out to him and it took me a few days to do it because I struggle with boundaries and I feel guilty when I set boundaries and I wanted to him the benefit of the doubt, of course, always. And I felt super guilty. So it took me a little bit of time to be able to say, "Hey, I actually don't want to move forward with you." Alyssa Scolari [04:32]: I was really determined to tell him, instead of just ghosting him, not because he deserves an explanation because quite frankly, I think the angry part of me wanted to do to him what he did to me, which is just not show up for my next session, but my card would've been charged for a late fee. And quite frankly, I don't feel like paying for it... He doesn't deserve my money, honestly, but also I wanted to practice boundary setting. This was a good opportunity for me to practice dealing with all of the feelings that come up when I set boundaries. So he basically just responded... Alyssa Scolari [05:16]: Well, I texted him and I was like, "Hey, after having some time to process, there have been several scheduling errors. And then after you not showing up last week, that was really like the last straw for me and I really need a therapist who can give me consistency. So I don't think that you and I are going to be a good match moving forward." And he just responded and was like, "I understand and I sincerely apologize," or some crap like that. I mean, I'm glad that he was able to accept it and not retaliate or say something kind of snarky, but at the same time, it's still just like, it's your fault, dude, because honestly he could have repaired that relationship. He could have. If he had picked up the phone and called me to make sure that I was okay, but I just... It's kind of hard to explain. Alyssa Scolari [06:10]: I feel like unless you're super familiar with EMDR, you can't understand that missing any kind of therapy session, for a therapist to not show up can be super damaging for anybody. It's a little bit perhaps less damaging if you're not doing EMDR. And that's not to say that I would like invalidate anybody's feelings because whether I have EMDR or not, if my therapist didn't show up, or if I didn't show up for one of my clients, I would absolutely expect abandonment stuff to come up. And I would have to take accountability as the therapist, or I would expect my therapist to take accountability. Now, God forbid, if there was like a real emergency. I mean, of course, I would understand it. I would hope my clients would understand it and I would hope we would be able to repair. Alyssa Scolari [07:01]: With EMDR though, EMDR can leave you so raw. And he warned me in the session. He was like, "You're going to be really raw. You're going to be really emotional. It's going to be really difficult. There's going to be a lot of intense stuff that comes up." So he knew that. He told me, and then he just didn't even bother to call me. And he had the ability to call me because he was talking to me or he texted me. And so I know he had the ability to at least touch base with me. And he really offered no real explanation for why didn't show up. Of course, I know the reason. I know he fucking forgot because he didn't read the text message that I sent him when he asked me to remind him when our appointment was, which is problematic in itself. But I digress. Alyssa Scolari [07:53]: So there're just so many other things that he could have done to repair that relationship. And if I were in his shoes, I would have that client on the phone in a heartbeat, not charging them a single cent and seeing how they're feeling, if I triggered their abandonment. How we can repair this relationship. And no, maybe I'm not going to stay on the phone with them for an hour. I wasn't asking for a free session, but he should have touch base with me. He had no idea if I was safe, unsafe, he had only met me one time. So the whole thing is just really infuriating that he can be like, "Oh, EMDR is going to be one of the hardest things you've ever done." And then just like not show up and really not give a flying fuck about how I am. So he's gone. I did it. I set a boundary and I feel really good about it. In hindsight, of course, it was not easy doing it, but I feel good about it now. I think I might have found somebody else. So we'll see. I have my first session scheduled and we will see how it goes. Enough about that. We can transition into self-sabotage. Alyssa Scolari [09:09]: I did a fun little thing this week, where I had a poll on my Instagram. And I asked you all to tell me what you wanted to hear, because I was going back and forth between talking about self-sabotage and talking about borderline personality disorder. And obviously I definitely want to talk about both on this podcast, but many of you requested the self-sabotage. So that is what we are doing today. Alyssa Scolari [09:35]: Self-sabotage is basically behaviors that you engage in that hinder your progress. It's pretty self-explanatory. And I think that a lot of self-sabotage can be an unconscious thing, something that lives in your subconscious, we are not aware that we are doing it. And I have picked up on a lot of my own self-sabotaging tactics over the last like several years, I'd say, and I'm a little bit more aware. Alyssa Scolari [10:11]: I think for me, the issue is I become aware of self-sabotage right after I do it. So obviously the goal is to be able to identify what you're doing before you do it. I tend not to do that. Sometimes I do, but hey, I'm a work in progress. We all are. And I think that there are stages of progression when it comes to dealing with self-sabotage, you might recognize it four months after the fact. And then you might recognize it two weeks after the fact. And then you might recognize it immediately after the fact. And then you're going to get to the point where you're going to see yourself, you're going to catch yourself in it, and you're going to be like, "Nope, not doing this because I'm self-sabotaging." So it's a progression. Alyssa Scolari [11:03]: Now, there are all kinds of self-sabotages. There's holding yourself back from going after that degree you really want. There's refusing to go out with friends anywhere because you don't want to deal with the anxiety that can come up with social interaction. Things like that can be, not always, but they can be self-sabotage. Alyssa Scolari [11:26]: We're not going to be talking about all the types of self-sabotage today. What we are going to be focusing on is a kind of self-sabotage that again, I don't think many people are consciously aware of, but really can hold you back in your recovery. And that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Self-fulfilling prophecy is absolutely self-sabotage. Let me explain how. Alyssa Scolari [11:53]: Sometimes our thoughts are so powerful that we can think them into existence. We can think them into reality. Have you ever had to go somewhere that you really don't want to go to and you've been dreading it and you're like, "This is going to suck. This is going to be horrible. I'm going to leave feeling terrible. I'm not going to have any fun. I'm not going to make any friends." And then you go and it was just as bad as you always thought it was going to be, or maybe even worse? Maybe it was always going to be that bad, maybe not, but maybe you talked yourself into things being that bad. Maybe you talked yourself into an argument with your partner. Maybe you talked yourself into a panic attack. I'm not self-blaming. I hope that my words don't come off as that, so I'm going to explain. Alyssa Scolari [12:55]: Again, let's go back to this event. I have this event to go to. I don't really feel like going. I'm not going to like anybody there and it's going to suck. So if you are going into it feeling that way and feeling very, very anxious and telling yourself, "I'm going to have a panic attack beforehand, because I can't leave my house. I don't like to engage with people." You are more likely to act in ways that align with the beliefs in your brain, because the thoughts that are coming up in your head, you are not taking those thoughts and going, "Okay, that's one possibility, but there could also be many other possibilities I could have a decent time." Alyssa Scolari [13:36]: More often than not, we are not doing that because I think especially as trauma survivors, we tend to try to stay in the black and white, because that feels better for us. So we like definitive concrete answers and thoughts and beliefs. So our brain goes to, "This is going to be your reality. You're going to go to this party. This party's going to suck. You're not going to make any friends. Nobody's going to like your outfit." And then we end up just believing that no matter what we do from now until this party, the outcome is always going to be the same and we are going to have a terrible time. But perhaps that is not the case. Alyssa Scolari [14:15]: Perhaps if you were able to identify those thoughts and say to yourself, "Okay, yeah, this is not ideal for me, but what if I might not have a horrible time? And what can I potentially do to make it so that I may not have a horrible time? What can I do? Can I try to pick out an outfit that I really like and feel really, really good in? Can I try to see who is going to be there and who I can connect with ahead of time so that I'm not feeling so alone? What can I do for the rest of that weekend to make my weekend very relaxing and enjoyable for me to ease the fact that I have to go to this event that I don't really like?" Thinking of ways that you can make your beliefs about a future event, not a reality. Make it a possibility, not a factual-based reality. And there are other ways that this shows up. I'm going to give you one example. Alyssa Scolari [15:29]: Many of you know I am in pelvic floor physical therapy for my endometriosis. I had surgery in late January, and I've been in PT for about probably since December, since before my surgery. And I go every week. And it has been really hard because it is very invasive. For those of you who don't know what pelvic floor physical therapy is, well, it involves a lot of things based around strengthening the pelvis, but also all of the muscles in and around the genitalia. Basically, it's like going to an OB-GYN appointment and having your internal examination last for 30 minutes. Because I do some strengthening work, but also I have to go and... I do want to include as an aside. I probably should have said this a little bit earlier, but I do want to include a trigger warning here because I am go going to be talking about sex. We're talking about sex. So if this is something that's uncomfortable for you, please feel free to go ahead and skip. Just want to offer a trigger warning right here and right now. Alyssa Scolari [16:46]: So for pelvic floor physical therapy, it involves me having to go. I have to take my pants off and she has to insert her fingers to be able to work with the muscles. She is retraining my muscles to calm down because everything is so tense because I have been in such excruciating pain for months on end. So she is having to work on all of the muscles inside of me. And as you can imagine, it is extremely triggering for somebody who has a history of sexual abuse. A few weeks back, I had a panic attack actually. And my physical therapist is amazing. I cannot complain about her whatsoever. She is super trauma informed, she is so safe, because I would not be going if I didn't feel extremely safe around her. But I actually had a panic attack in physical therapy a few weeks ago, and she helped me through that. Alyssa Scolari [17:47]: I just think that you guys know how I feel about the mind, body connection. Your body holds so much trauma. Mine certainly does. And so when she will like hit certain spots, my body will have a reaction in the form of a panic attack or some kind of trauma response that I have to work through. Perhaps a memory will come up. It has been a really difficult process. So she was teaching me about something new that she wanted to do to help me and I was extremely triggered by it. Again, it was nothing that she did because she's wonderful, but I was really, really triggered by it and I was like, "I don't know how I'm going to be able to do this. I don't know if I'm ready to do this. This feels uncomfortable." And I got through the appointment okay, but I think the emotions finally caught up with me when I got home. I on the drive home felt so like short of breath almost to the point where I was like, "Wow, do I have asthma?" Because I can't breathe." But it was my anxiety. Alyssa Scolari [19:01]: And so I kept telling myself, I was like working myself up into a panic. And I was like, "Oh my God, I can't do this. I can't do this. I can't go back to physical therapy. This is too much. This is too hard." And so I'm like working myself up and I'm working myself up and I'm like physical therapy is going to make me even more stressed out because it's bringing up all this trauma and I just can't do it. And so then I went home and I get out of my car. Mind you the day before I worked all day and it was a really difficult day that ended in chaos and just, it was difficult. I had to do things that I hate doing as a therapist. I had to break confidentiality. It is not fun. It was not fun. It was a really upsetting day. And so I was already stressed out. I already had a little bit of an emotional hangover. And so all of this is just like brewing inside of me and I'm in my head and I'm like, "I can't take much more. I can't take much more. I'm going to lose my shit if something happens. Alyssa Scolari [20:18]: And so I get home and I start making breakfast for myself because I hadn't eaten yet. And I hear my dog throw up and I was like, "No." I was praying that she threw up on the hardwood floor and not the carpet. And so I walk out into the living room and I see her on the stairs. Our stairs are hardwood, but we have these custom-made stair treads that are like carpets, little like traction carpets. And she's standing on the stairs and she's throwing up all over the stairs. And I panicked because I was like, "Dave is going to be so mad when he sees this. He's going to freak out. I can't handle this." This was the last straw and I'm laughing at myself now. It's not funny. I was really upset, but I just... Now that I'm looking back and I can see like the progression of events and how I just did not intervene when I knew I was getting to a bad place, I just kind of let it happen. Alyssa Scolari [21:37]: And so David heard me go, "Oh man." And so he came downstairs and I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no. Don't come downstairs. Don't look at it. You're going to get so mad." And he's not because I'm afraid of anger right now because I have been dealing with so much anger this week and I am an abuse survivor. I've dealt with angry men in the past and I am very triggered by it, but David is not an angry... he's not like that. So I was already dissociated. I was like, "No, no, no, don't look. You're going to freak out. You're going to freak out. And he saw, and he was annoyed. He was rightfully annoyed at the throw up on the stairs, because literally like throw up anywhere in the house... Most of house is hardwood. You're going to tell me that you picked the most difficult spot to throw up in this house. Are you kidding me? Alyssa Scolari [22:36]: I get it. He had every right to be annoyed. He didn't start screaming. He wasn't stomping. He wasn't throwing things, but I panicked. I was like, "I'll clean it up. I'll clean it up." And so he actually was just like, "No, I'll clean it up. No worries, because I don't do throw up. I will if I have to, but it makes me really sick." So he's like, "I got it," but he was annoyed. And I am... This is so embarrassing to say, but I lost my shit and I started like scream crying. I was like, "I told you I would clean it up because you're mad and I can't handle you being mad." Ironically, I was the one who was mad. I was mad at him for being annoyed, for being rightfully annoyed. Alyssa Scolari [23:30]: So I brought this on myself and then I think he was a little like not triggered, but maybe ticked off at me because I'm yelling at him. Why am I yelling at him? I should not be yelling at him. I'm just crying and I'm like, "I told you I would clean it up so you don't get mad." And he was like, "Sweetie, what is going on?" Because I just like I walked in the door and fell apart. And so he was just like, "What is happening?" And I didn't even know what was happening. Alyssa Scolari [24:05]: You might be asking like, "Okay, how in the hell is this a self-fulfilling prophecy?" And basically it's a self-fulfilling prophecy because it's a chain of events. So let's talk about the physical therapy. I was like telling myself, "I'm going to have a panic attack. I can't handle this. I literally can't today. I cannot do this. This is a horrible day. I don't know how I'm going to go on." And then within minutes of that conversation in my head, I ended up having a panic attack. I ended up crying and yelling and freaking out and I could not get regulated. I could not get regulated. But then I also came home and I was like, "David's going to be so mad. He's going to be so mad that this dog threw up and I can't handle it. If he gets mad, I'm going to freak out." Well, he wasn't mad. He was not even mad, but I made him mad with my strong reaction because I'm yelling at him for doing nothing wrong, nothing wrong. So I actually made him mad. Alyssa Scolari [25:16]: And then when I could see that he was frustrated with me, I was like, "See, I knew it. I knew it. I knew he was going to get mad. I knew this was going to happen. I can't handle this. I'm running away." It was like truly I am running away moment. Like I need to get on a plane and I need to go on an island because I am not doing well right now. So it was a catastrophe for me, but I also talked myself into a catastrophe. Alyssa Scolari [25:48]: Please don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that mental health is as simple as that. I am not saying that we can talk ourselves out of depression or panic attacks or trauma responses because we cannot. And if you have been listening to this podcast for a long time, you know that is not how I feel. But what I am saying is my morning did not have to be nearly as bad as it was if I had been able to stop myself from the self-sabotage and the self-fulfilling prophecy, because I am the one with my train of thoughts that induced my own panic attack because I didn't intervene. I am the one that caused David to feel angry because here I am yelling at him because he got a little bit annoyed at the dog. He wasn't mad at me. He was a little annoyed at the throw up, understandably so. I did that. I sabotaged myself by saying, "I can't handle this. I am at the end of my rope. This isn't going to work out for me today." Alyssa Scolari [27:01]: Well, guess what? I still had a full day ahead of me. I still had to work. I had things I had to do. I had to go grocery shopping. I had to make doctor's appointments. So the more I told myself "I can't," the worse I made myself feel because the truth of the matter is that it's not like I could have taken the day off and not done anything. I mean, I guess I could have, but I wasn't planning on it. Alyssa Scolari [27:28]: And so me just saying, "I can't do this, I can't do this, I can't do this," was setting myself up so that I literally couldn't do it. If I had changed that dialogue and I had said to myself, "This is horribly unpleasant. This is horrible. I was triggered at work last night. I had a hard day at work. I had to do things as a therapist that I really don't like doing. I had a really hard morning at physical therapy and now my dog is throwing up. It's just not my week, but I am making it and I have made it. I've still been able to show up for my clients and be the best therapist I can be. I've still been able to feed myself. I've still been able to drink water. I've still been able to be present with my dogs." After the horrible week I've had, it wouldn't have been so bad if I could have talked to myself a little bit differently. Alyssa Scolari [28:25]: And then with David, right? He's going to be mad. He's going to be mad. He's going to be mad. I talked myself into that reality because if I had just said, "Okay, I'm feeling triggered right now. David is not the enemy. He is not the enemy. And he's going to see this throw up and he is going to be annoyed. And that is going to be okay. He is allowed to be annoyed. He is allowed to have his emotions. His annoyance doesn't mean that I'm in danger. He is a safe person." I can bet you that I would not have had an absolute breakdown in that moment. I can bet you that things would've turned out differently. So I do this. Now, I noticed it right after the fact. I was in the middle of crying and I was like, "What am I doing?" Alyssa Scolari [29:09]: I literally just talked myself into this breakdown with all the can'ts and talking myself into like, "David's mad. He's going to hate me." I was like, "Oh my God, he's not going to want to be married to me anymore." Where did that even come from? The dog threw up. How did I go from the dog throwing up to David is divorcing me? I laugh about it now because you can see how the logic just isn't quite adding up. But when we are in the moment, there's no room for logic in our minds, but we have to make space for the logic. Because when we talk ourselves into something and when we talk about how we already know something is going to be horrible, we already know that we aren't going to be able to handle something, sometimes we manifest that reality. Alyssa Scolari [30:03]: Listen, that's not to say that sometimes we truly can't handle stuff because sometimes that is the case. Sometimes I look at my schedule and I go, "Nope, not today. Today I need to take care of myself." And that's okay. That's not necessarily self-sabotage. That's self-care. It's really hard to find that middle or that middle ground. What is self-care? What is self-sabotage? But I think you have to look at it from a non-emotionally dysregulated state. So from a state of more emotional regulation. If I am emotionally regulated and I am looking at my schedule today, and I'm saying, "Nope, can't do this. Can't do this today. I am calling out of work." Or, "You know what, I know I have this activity and I can't go because I have just had too much going on and I really need to take care of myself." Perhaps that is self-care, perhaps that is self-care. Alyssa Scolari [30:59]: But if we're looking at an event that we have to go to, or we're looking at our schedules for the day and we're filled with almost like... I guess it would be like emotional dysregulation. So much anxiety, so much dread and all these racing thoughts of, "I can't, I can't. It's going to be horrible. It's going to be horrible. What are people going to think of me? I don't know what to wear. I can't trust myself. I'm not going to have any for friends." That's when it's like, okay, we need to really look at this here and I need to get myself regulated before I can make any decisions, before I have any interactions with somebody so that I don't risk self-sabotaging. Alyssa Scolari [31:38]: People do this in relationships all the time, where sometimes we are so afraid. I do this with David. I don't necessarily do it as much anymore, but when I was first with David in my earlier years of really working on my trauma recovery, I was so afraid of David just being so angry. And he's not an angry guy. Anybody who knows Dave, knows he is not an angry guy, but what I would do is I would subconsciously push his buttons and push his buttons and poke and prod. And then when he would get angry, I would be like, "See, you're angry." Well, yes, yes, of course. Now it took me a little while to realize I was doing that and sometimes I would do that with having to go out. "I'm going to be really anxious about this. I don't know if I can go. I'm going to be really anxious. I'm going to be really anxious." And then the day of the event gets here and I'm like, "See, I'm anxious. I can't go. I can't do it." Alyssa Scolari [32:38]: Well, yes, of course I am because I've been literally telling myself to be anxious about this for days. I have been telling myself that my partner is not safe. I have been telling myself that I hate my job." These are examples. I actually don't hate my job, but these are just examples of things that you might be telling yourself that could be self-sabotage. Alyssa Scolari [33:05]: Now, listen, this might sound a little bit like a mindset is everything mentality. And I don't fully agree with that. Yes, it is about mindset, but it is also about self-awareness, being aware of what you are doing and being able to see things from an objective space. So yeah, my husband and I just got into this fight or my partner and I just got into this fight. How did we get there? How did we get there? Okay. Well, I can see that last week in therapy, I processed how when I was younger my mother was really, really angry and my mother was abusive. And then I'd been thinking about it all week and I noticed that I had been pushing my partner's buttons. And then all of a sudden my partner became really angry and really annoyed. And therefore I confirmed my worst fear. I created a self-fulfilling prophecy. I sabotaged my relationship. Alyssa Scolari [34:12]: Hopefully this is making sense, and hopefully this is something that you can take and say, "What am I doing? Am I doing this? How am I doing this? How is this showing up in my life?" Because self-sabotage can show up in all of our lives, because for people who have experienced some type of trauma, we are familiar with things not going well. Trauma is familiar to our brains. So sometimes our brains are actively seeking out trauma. And so we look for ways in which perhaps our partners are unsafe or our friends are unsafe or our workplaces are unsafe. Sometimes we can do this when we have friends. Let's say you have a really, really a good friend, but you need help one day and you reach out to a friend and that friend can't answer. And that friend's like, "Hey, look, I've had a really, really bad day. I really can't talk. I love you, but let's catch up another time." Alyssa Scolari [35:16]: Sometimes we go into this head space of like, "Ah, this person sucks. They're not a good friend. They're never there for me. I don't know what I'm doing talking to them." And we kind of negate all the good things about them. All we can see is the bad. And then before we know it, we're pulling away from the friendship, we're closed off all because we have told ourselves that this person is not a good friend based on being triggered. That is self-sabotage. You are distancing yourself from a person because they made you feel some type of what way that is related to trauma. Everybody who makes us feel some type of way that is related to our trauma, isn't necessarily bad or toxic. Sometimes we feel this kind of way because we have lessons to learn, because we are still so deeply wounded from abandonment and want to hate people and push them away if they can't show up for us. Alyssa Scolari [36:23]: And so we tell ourselves, "Oh, I'm so alone. I don't have any friends. I'm such a burden. Nobody wants to be there for me." But in reality, that's not true. That's our abandonment stuff coming up. And we are self-sabotaging by saying that we are alone in this world. When we say we are alone, then we make ourselves alone because we close ourselves off from the rest of the world. Alyssa Scolari [36:50]: All of these things I have done in my life, and I have had to work extra hard to make sure that I do not self-sabotage and that I do not complete these self-fulfilling prophecies. Here is what helps me the most. And that is becoming my own detective. When I notice that I am really starting to self-sabotage or when I'm really dysregulated and have a feeling about somebody, a partner, a friend, a colleague that is like bringing up my trauma. I will number one, if I can, wait to make any decisions that are going to affect my career, my financial stability, my relationships with other people, things like that. Always wait to make any decisions. Alyssa Scolari [37:50]: But most importantly, most importantly, you have got to look at the facts. So let's take my day yesterday or a few days ago where I came home and I was distraught after a hard day at work, after pelvic floor physical therapy, after the dog throwing up, after being so tired, being withdrawn from my Klonopin that I'm still struggling with. Although I'm doing much better, as an aside, it is so good to be completely off that medication. I am sleeping better, but it's just like the emotional component of the withdrawal is always so bad for me and takes a few weeks. So I am doing well, but let's take all of that whole day as an example. What is the evidence that I had that I was overtaxed, that I could not go on with my day? Alyssa Scolari [38:52]: Well, I did have some evidence. I was very, very tired. I wasn't feeling great. I was feeling a little panicky in my chest, but what was the evidence that I simply could not go on? Where is the evidence that I could not get myself into a state of regulation so that I can move on with my day? Where was my evidence? Where is my evidence that my husband is a big, mean, scary man who's going to freak out and punch a hole on the wall if he sees that the dog threw up? Where is my evidence? And truthfully, I didn't have any. I didn't have any evidence because the fact of the matter is that I had a really easy day afterwards. Yes, I still had to work. Yes, I had to do some grocery shopping, but it was nothing that I felt like I truly couldn't do, or I didn't want to do. I wanted to go to work. I love work. Work is a really big... Alyssa Scolari [39:52]: Listen. Of course, sometimes my job can be stressful, but I knew the kind of day that I was going to have with work. And I knew it was going to be an easy-breezy day. So there was really no evidence that I could not move on with my day. I had no evidence that my husband is a big, mean and scary man. He's never gotten violent. He is not a violent person even when he is at his angriest. I've seen him angry before. I know the extent of his anger. I have zero evidence to show that he is anything less than a compassionate and supportive husband. Alyssa Scolari [40:30]: I have zero evidence to show on days where I maybe have an interaction with a friend and some of my trauma stuff is brought up. I don't really have a whole lot of evidence to show that this person is no good for me, because I feel hurt in this moment. And where's the evidence that this person had a malicious intent? Or where's the evidence that this person... Did this person really want to be mean to me? Does this person not care? Or did this person set a boundary with me? Alyssa Scolari [41:02]: Those are things that I think I used to struggle with probably several years ago when it comes to friendship stuff, not so much anymore. And I'm really proud of myself for this because I've been such a good detective. Instead of feeling like I'm at the mercy of my emotions, I'm like, "Okay, I can see what I'm feeling. I'm going to put those emotions in a box right now and I'm going to put on my detective hat." This person told me that they can't be there for me right now. So what does that mean? Does that mean that this person is malicious? Does that mean that this person doesn't care about me? Or is it possible that this person is having a really, really bad day and just simply cannot show up for me? And is that okay in friendships? Alyssa Scolari [41:46]: And I was really able to do that. Like my detective work where I'm looking at the evidence like, "Okay, what has this friendship looked like in the past? Has this person been able to show up for me in the past? Is this person a good friend? Do I feel safe and secure around this person?" And if all the answers to that are yes, then it's likely that there is no need to let your brain jump to the conclusion that, "Oh, I have to end this friendship. I'm so alone. I'm a burden to people." So that is the best way to go about this, is to give yourself space to be your own detective. Alyssa Scolari [42:23]: Think about times in your life where you may have been self-sabotaging and be your own detective. What is the evidence I have to support my beliefs? My beliefs that I can't get through the day, my beliefs that my partner is maybe a bad person, or my beliefs that my partner doesn't love me. Is that based in reality or is that based on trauma? What are my beliefs and what is the evidence I have to support this belief right now that I'm alone in the world and don't have any friends? That is the most helpful thing. Alyssa Scolari [42:58]: Now I will say this. It is really, really hard to do that while you're still in a state of extreme dysregulation. So if you are extremely emotional, do not, do not try to look for evidence because honestly, all the evidence that you look for, you're not even going to like give it any kind of weight because your brain in that moment is going to want to believe what it wants to believe. So before you become your own detective, you've got to get yourself regulated. And that might mean in taking some time, that might mean what I needed to do is I needed to put my phone away. I needed to put my computer away and I took a hot shower. And I allowed myself some time to calm down because I was so ramped up and I was so ready for an argument or a panic attack or whatever was going to happen. So I put everything away and I took a hot shower. Alyssa Scolari [43:53]: You might need to take a hot shower. You might take a bath. You might need to go for a walk. You might need to just sit down and read a book. You might need to have a cup of hot tea or go out and grab a cup of coffee. Whatever helps you get some space so that you can get a little bit more regulated is going to keep you from self-sabotaging. Alyssa Scolari [44:19]: I hope that this was helpful because we all do it. We all do it so much. And you know what? We even do it with our therapists sometimes. Sometimes our therapists will give us tools and tips and tricks and evidence to support... All the evidence in the world to support the reality that we live in. And sometimes we can still take all of that and be like, "No, no, you're wrong. You're wrong," to the therapist. Or, "Oh, well, I tried these skills. I tried them. They didn't work for me." Did we try them? How often did we try them? Did we try them once and never again and then write them off because it was too hard? All of these things are just self-sabotaging. Alyssa Scolari [45:09]: It's not that we're difficult. It's just that we are self-sabotaging because sometimes we're afraid to heal. Sometimes we don't know who we are without our pain and our panic attacks and our anger. It's hard to let go of anger. It's hard to let go of anxiety when it's who we in our whole lives, but ultimately doing so paves the way for healing, a level of healing which is absolutely worth it. I can promise you that. Alyssa Scolari [45:47]: I hope that this was helpful. If you have any questions, comments, or concerns, feel free to find me on Instagram. We can chat. I look forward to seeing you next week. I am holding you in the light, take extra good care of yourselves and don't self-sabotage. Alyssa Scolari [46:11]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram we are @lightaftertrauma, and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support. Alyssa Scolari [46:48]: [singing].

There are thousands of false representations of therapy in the media and general public. Some of these misconceptions about the therapeutic process may prevent people from seeking help or fully opening up in their sessions. In this week's episode Alyssa sets the record straight on 8 common myths about going to therapy.    Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma   Transcript Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hello, everybody. Welcome back. Or if you're new, welcome. And if you're old, welcome back. Well, not old, you know what I mean. It is good to be here. This is the Light After Trauma Podcast, and I am your host, Alyssa Scolari. Solo episode today, which is like... They might be my favorites. I think solo episodes are my favorites. I don't know. I love both. I feel like I've had some really good guest interviews, so I've got some really good guest episodes coming up for you all. But yeah, there's just something that hits different about these solo episodes. And it's nice to be able to talk to you all today, because let me tell you, I am having a shit week. And not just a week where things weren't really that great, I was in a grumbly mood, no, this was a no good, terrible, very bad week. Alyssa Scolari [01:22]: Is that a book? I feel like that's a book that I read in my childhood. It's not like Alexander's No Good, Terrible, Horrible, Very Bad Day or something like that. But regardless, that's the kind of week that I've had where everything that can go wrong, did go wrong. It shouldn't be that. That's a little bit of an exaggeration, quite honestly, but it really was a horrible, horrible week. And I would be lying if I told you I wasn't feeling like an absolute bag of shit right now, but I am trying to use my humor therapy to get through it. And podcasting always helps me feel better. So I'm just going to have venting corner for a second. Alyssa Scolari [02:13]: And skippers, if you want to skip, feel free to skip. You don't have to listen to me at all, but I'm just going to have a little venting corner here. So, a few things. Number one, I haven't really talked much about this, but a few years ago when I was really in like the worst of my PTSD, and by the way, I was made to be as bad as I was because I had a healthcare provider/therapist who was telling me I needed to be on all of these medications in order to function, so a huge red flag. It's something that I will talk to you all about one day, but just can't talk about it right now. Alyssa Scolari [02:57]: And maybe this was about three years ago, because about two and a half years ago, I realized that these medications were actually making me sicker, and I'm not saying that medication is bad, but what I was on was making me sicker. And I started the process of coming off of all of these medications. It has taken me two and a half years, because on Tuesday, so a week ago before this episode is airing, I stopped taking the last dose of the last medication that I was coming off of, and the withdrawal of all three of the medications that I was on has been horrendous and has left me with lifelong side effects, or what I believe will be lifelong, because I should have never been on that combination of medications. Alyssa Scolari [03:55]: I digress. This is a topic for another time. The point that I'm trying to make here is the withdrawal is horrendous, absolutely horrendous. And so I have been going through it this week. I can't sleep, I am sweating, I am twitching. I am in a rage that is so intense that I feel like I can't control myself. I am feeling almost like, if you're a Harry Potter fan are familiar with Harry Potter, the third book, Prisoner of Azkaban, the Dementors. I feel like I have a Dementor or multiple Dementors around me everywhere. Alyssa Scolari [04:37]: For those of you who aren't familiar, Dementors are these creatures that suck the happiness out of your soul, essentially, and make you feel as if you'll never be cheerful again. That is how I am feeling. I'm not sleeping. I'm just really, really irritable. I'm going through it. And then on top of that, I got my period, which like wasn't supposed to happen because I just had it two weeks ago. And I think what I didn't realize or what nobody tells you after endometriosis surgery is that number one, your first couple periods are excruciatingly painful because your body is still healing. And number two, your periods are going to be super irregular, all over the place, because again, your body is still healing. Alyssa Scolari [05:27]: Was I told that? Absolutely not. Did I have to learn that on the internet after I panicked because I thought that there was something wrong with me? Yes. So I wasn't expecting this. The cramps have kept me up all night as well, I've been in just a ton of pain mentally, physically. And on top of that, on top of that, yes, there is more, as many of you know, and if you're new in my more recent episodes, I talk about how I started EMDR. I started EMDR two weeks ago, and I was ghosted by my therapist. I mean ghosted, he didn't show up for our appointment, my second appointment. Alyssa Scolari [06:22]: People are... Well, not people. People are humans, therapists are humans, and we all make mistakes. And if you're on my Instagram and you've watched some of my stories where I'm talking about that therapist, you know that this was the final straw in a series of events where there have been issues with scheduling and not necessarily, scheduling and not on my end, but multiple times where this therapist has reached out to me and been like, "Hey, what time are we meeting?" And I would then have to tell them, or they would get the time wrong. And then our schedules would be messed up because I thought we were meeting at this time because that's what we said, but then they told me that we were meeting another time. Alyssa Scolari [07:09]: And so it's just been a series of unfortunate events that have... maybe isolated might not seem like a big deal, but when put together are showing a pattern that this is not somebody who's going to be reliable. And if you haven't listened to the previous episodes about EMDR, what you need to know about EMDR is that it is extremely dangerous work, potentially. And EMDR can cause folks with a trauma history to unravel a little bit. It's very intense, it's extremely painful, and it leaves people feeling raw. It is not safe to have a therapist who is unreliable. Alyssa Scolari [07:52]: And I think what really got to me is that I had this appointment on Tuesday, and then on Monday, this therapy has texted me and was like, "Wait, what time are we meeting on Thursday?" And I was like, "We're not meeting on Thursday, we're meeting on Tuesday." And I was like, "Does that still work with you?" And they were like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, that works." So this was less than 24 hours before our appointment. I get to the appointment and therapist isn't there, the therapist didn't show up. And the excuse that I was given for why they didn't show up really was not good and was very blatantly a lie and very much just came off as like, you totally forgot, you completely forgot about the appointment. Alyssa Scolari [08:33]: The therapist didn't call me to make sure I was okay, because I had one session of EMDR, for all they know, I could have been completely unraveled, going out of my mind. I could have been suicidal, but they neither called nor cared to call and check in on any of that and apologize for this abandonment. I was literally abandoned at the door. Now, I don't really have a relationship with that person. I liked our first session. So it didn't hit me as hard, but it really pisses me off. And it does hurt a little bit, because you know what? I shouldn't have to be more organized than my therapist. That's not okay. Alyssa Scolari [09:11]: And I could feel myself being like, "Okay, I'm clearly the more organized one. I'm the more structured one." And you know what? It's not okay for your therapist to keep reaching out to you multiple times to ask you when you're meeting, it's not appropriate. So I am done. And I have to now find a new therapist, which, if you've been looking for a therapist or if you're someone who has had to find a therapist in this pandemic, you know it has been nearly impossible to find somebody. Alyssa Scolari [09:41]: So I am now having to go back through and search for therapists. Mind you, after I've already done one EMDR session, so I'm a little bit raw and a little bit unraveled. I am honestly just pissed off. Those are like the three things that happened. And there's been some other things that honestly, I'm not going to bore you with, but it was just one thing after the next, after the next this week. And I'm like, "Fuck. Why?" Not to mention, it's just been shitty weather, which has really affected my mood. Alyssa Scolari [10:16]: I never realized how badly I had seasonal depression until this year, and I'm like, "Damn, I need the sunshine in my life." So that's what I got. That's what I got. It's been a crap week and I am just trying to get through it as best as I can and manage my emotions and my triggers. I think I'm doing really well, all things considered, but I'm feeling pretty frustrated and pretty let down, honestly, very let down with the whole therapist thing, because I was really looking forward to the EMDR process. And now I have to take some time off and look and search and take the time out. Alyssa Scolari [10:59]: I don't feel like it, but I know I have to because I have a big trip coming up this summer and I really want to work out some things and calm my nervous system a little bit before my big trip. So, that is that. I'll leave you with that. If you have hung in with me for this long, thank you for letting me vent. I appreciate it. And today, we are going to talk about some common myths for therapy. What people believe happens or takes place in therapy versus what actually happens. And this is really piggybacking off of last week's episode where I talk about how to find the right therapist for you. Alyssa Scolari [11:45]: Now I want to talk about what you can expect from therapy process and what some of the common myths are from therapy that really might not be true and that might, in all honesty, keep you from going to therapy if you believed them to be true. And I cannot take credit for this episode idea, I have to give this credit to my husband, Dave, Dave with the win. I think it's a great idea. I think it's fantastic because people have many misconceptions about what therapy actually is. And I would've never thought to do something like this, but my husband, I know we were talking the other day about the podcast, and he was like, "You should really do an episode on this." And I was like, "Damn, Dave, all right. All right." So kudos to Dave for this episode topic, because I'm really excited about it. Alyssa Scolari [12:37]: All right. So let's get into it. So myth number one. Myth number one is that only crazy... Ugh, I hate the word, or mentally ill people, severely mentally ill people, need to talk to therapists. You have to meet some kind of criteria for a diagnosis in order to go and speak to a therapist. This one is straightforward and pretty easy. And of course, I'm sure many of this, that is so not true. First of all, the word crazy... Listen, this crazy is still a part of my language, and I try very hard to take it out of my language because I think it's a very stigmatizing word. Alyssa Scolari [13:23]: Crazy is what we have used historically to describe people who truly do have mental illnesses or mental health disorders, so I really don't like the word crazy. So that word is just... I hate it. Sometimes I use it, sometimes it slips. I really try to be really good about it and correct myself if I do use that word. But regardless, you do not have to have mental illness or meet the criteria for a mental health disorder to go to therapy. Absolutely not. Anybody can go to therapy. And quite honestly, everybody should go to therapy. Alyssa Scolari [14:08]: Listen, I understand, therapy is not for everybody, and that is absolutely fine. But, these last few years in particular have been so difficult that I'm hard pressed to find somebody who's not in therapy these days, it just seems to be so common. Whether you just need some help navigating your relationship or whether you are just is having some mild anxiety that you want to talk to somebody about or whether you just really want to have somebody that you feel like you can talk to, we all need to talk about stuff, we all do. So sometimes you just might want somebody who can hold a safe space for you for one hour, once a week or once a month or once every other week, and that alone can be hugely powerful. Alyssa Scolari [15:05]: So you absolutely don't have to have any kind of mental health diagnosis to go to therapy. I think that most of us, I won't say most of us. I think that probably the folks who are listening to this podcast know that, or most of the folks who are listening to this podcast know that, but I don't think many people realize that. So the next one, myth number two, is that all you do in therapy is talk about how everything is tied back to your parents and how your mom and dad are to blame for everything. A lot of people don't want to go to therapy because they have no interest in rehashing the past. Alyssa Scolari [15:49]: Some people are processors and they need to go back and they need to rehash the past and they need to talk about it and they need to tell somebody what happened in order to be able to work through it. Other people don't want to do that. Other people don't want to sit there and talk about how it was their mom's fault, or it was their dad's fault, or it was their grandma's fault, or their grandpa's fault. They don't want to talk about that. They want to feel better without having to dive into the past. And a lot of people, I think, believe that that's just not possible and that therapy just looks like them having to go through every gruesome detail of their past. And that is so not true. Alyssa Scolari [16:31]: I know a lot of sexual abuse survivors actually tend to be hesitant to start therapy because they're like, "I cannot recount the details of my sexual abuse to somebody." And I am here to tell you that you don't have to. I didn't know this myself at all, and it's part of what I think made me hesitant to start going to therapy because I was like, "I can't talk about this stuff in detail. I don't want to, I don't even know if I'm going to trust the person I'm talking to." So please don't let that stop you from going to therapy because there are things that therapists do that have nothing to do with bringing up the past. Alyssa Scolari [17:13]: Listen, are we going to bring it up in the sense that we're like, "Oh, you have a history of this. And therefore we need this type of treatment"? Yes. But it's not going to be like, "Well, if you're not willing to tell me the details of your abuse, then you're really not ready for therapy." That's not the case at all. Therapists, myself included, have clients who come in and work with them and we never know the details of their abuse. I have people that have come in my office and I have never known the details of what happened to them, because we are focused on the present, we are focused on what's coming up right now, and how we can change that. We are focused on regulating the nervous system so that you can move forward in your future and live a happy and healthy life. Alyssa Scolari [18:06]: Myth number three. Myth number three is that all therapy is only a venting session, and I'm not going because I'm just going to pay somebody to listen to me and it's going to be useless. Well, I am here to tell you that if you are feeling like every single session, if you have therapy and you feel like every single session is venting session, and that your therapist is barely even saying anything in response to you, or if you are afraid to go to therapy because you feel like it might be a waste of money because you think that every single session is just venting, that is so not the case. Alyssa Scolari [18:45]: And again, if you are feeling like you are just venting in therapy and getting nothing out of it, then you should talk to your therapist about that. You absolutely should bring that up with your therapist because that is so not the case. Sometimes I try to not cut people off, but I try to redirect people. And I try to be very open about it. If I can see that somebody's just venting, I never want to take advantage of somebody's time. And so if I feel like somebody is just venting, I want to ask them, as a therapist, I'm going to be like, "Hey, you had a really rough week and it seems like you've got a lot you want to say. Do you want me to sit here and let you drive so that you can get all of this out. I'll sit in the passenger seat. You take the wheel, you drive, so you can get all of this out. And then when you're done and you're good and ready, whether it's this session or the next session, then we can go from there." Alyssa Scolari [19:48]: And sometimes they'll say yes, and sometimes they'll be like, "No, no, that's not what I want." Because therapy should not always be just venting, therapy should be a dialogue. And sometimes if I feel like somebody is just venting, I want to make them aware of it because what I don't want to happen is them to come in vent for the entire hour and then be like, "Oh my God, all I did was just repeat everything that I told my friend last night and I feel no different." I want to be able to allow space to be able to support that person, help that person, give them tools, give them feedback, link patterns that I see, ask them what could have been done differently, what can we do differently in the future? Have you tried this? Have you tried that? What do you think about this is? Etc. So it is really not just a venting session, I promise you that. Alyssa Scolari [20:41]: Myth number four, this is one of my favorites, one of my favorites. And it's actually one of my favorites because I think it's the most important and it breaks my heart so much. Myth number four is I can't tell my therapist how I'm truly feeling about my suicidal thoughts because they're going to send me to a hospital and I'm going to get admitted. They're going to lock me up and throw away the key. I cannot even begin to tell you how common of a fear this is. It is such a common fear, especially among, I think children, because children before they get to a therapist, typically have spoken to their guidance counselors in school. Alyssa Scolari [21:31]: And if children have shared with their guidance counselors in school that they feel suicidal, their guidance counselors have to send them to a hospital, like have to. So kids, I think a lot of times already have this idea in their head that it's not okay to be suicidal. And it is infuriating to me. I understand that schools do this because it's like a liability thing, but it is infuriating to me how much we criminalize. My complaint is a reflection on the system, honestly, because as we criminalize people who have suicidal thoughts, it's like punishment. It's like, "Oh, you want to hurt yourself? Okay. Well, now you have to go to this hospital where you're going to be further traumatized." Alyssa Scolari [22:18]: And this isn't just kids, it's adults too. You're going to get evaluated, they're going to pat you down. They're going to make sure you don't have any weapons on you. Nothing that you can use to hurt yourself. And I think that's what people jump to when they think like, "I'm having suicidal thoughts. I can't tell anybody this." Now, listen, there are some times where we do have to send you to the hospital or to a crisis center. I'm going to tell you what those times are. And this might differ to pending on therapist's comfort levels, but it shouldn't differ too much for the most part, and it's a conversation that your therapist should absolutely have with you within the first session. Alyssa Scolari [23:04]: I never let people walk out of my office without having this conversation with them the first time I meet them. So if you are feeling suicidal, I am not going to send you to the hospital or your therapist shouldn't send you to the hospital right away. If you tell me that you have a plan to end your life and that you cannot keep yourself safe, you have to go to a hospital. It's not necessarily that you walk in and you're like, "I am so overwhelmed. I fucking hate everything and I don't want to live anymore." At that point, I'm not like, "Oh, you said it. I'm picking up the phone. I'm calling 911. The ambulance is on their way. I'm going to handcuff you to the fricking couch so that you can't move." Alyssa Scolari [23:54]: I think this is what so many people envision. It's more the case that it's like, if you can't tell me how you're going to be safe, if you are in such a bad place that you can't use skills, if you don't have anybody at home that can help you, if you don't have a support system, and all that is there is you and your plan to end your life and there's nothing else to intervene, yeah, we got to send you to the hospital. We have to, because can't help you if you're dead. And regardless of what people may believe, we care so, so much. And at that point, as a therapist who you see maybe once a week, it's out of our control. Alyssa Scolari [24:39]: It's a horrible place to be in, but if you are not in that place and you are like, "I'm suicidal and I've thought about how I might do it, but I don't plan to do it right now, I don't really want to do it right now. I have a loving family at home," or, "I have a partner at home that knows," or, "I have this protective factor or that protective factor, a friend group, or my religion, or my this or that," whatever it can be. I'm drawing a blank right now, we're not going to send you to the hospital for that. Or again, I'm not sending somebody to the hospital for that. Now, if those symptoms are continuing to get worse, then we might need to talk about a higher level of care, not necessarily the hospital. Alyssa Scolari [25:31]: A hospital or a crisis center is for exactly that, a crisis, which is, "I am either going to hurt myself or somebody else and I am not well enough to be able to use any skills right now. I don't think I can stop it. This feels out of my control. I don't want anybody's help, I am done on this earth. Goodbye." We've got to get you to the hospital. And this can differ in some cases, perhaps you had a suicide attempt and then you just come out of a hospital and maybe you don't necessarily plan on taking your life right then in that moment, but maybe you still have a plan. You still have a plan and you still want to die. Alyssa Scolari [26:14]: Well, I'm probably going to be like, "Yeah, no, I'm still not good enough as a once a week outpatient therapist, we need you in a higher level of care," whether that's inpatient, whether that's partial hospitalization, whatever that may be. So it really does differ case by case, but I say this not to scare you, but I say this to try to comfort you, because I think that we are afraid to talk about our suicidal thoughts. And listen, I hate that the system is the way that it is because the hospitals are set up to feel like a punishment. It's not a nice, warm, cozy place where you can go and rest your head and feel like people are going to take care of you. It's not a pretty site to be in a hospital. I know. Alyssa Scolari [26:54]: I would know, I had to go to one. So it's horrible, it's traumatizing. And I wish it was better. I hate the system because then you know what, when somebody goes to a hospital once, they feel less inclined to speak up about their suicidal thoughts if they have them again because it was so traumatizing the first time. I wish we could turn this whole fucking system on its head and I hate it. But with that being said, this is not me telling you to not speak out. If you are having suicidal thoughts or feelings, you need to, because at the end of the day, whatever you witness in a hospital, you can heal from. You cannot heal if you are dead. Alyssa Scolari [27:38]: So whatever shitty things happen in a hospital, you know what, we'll work through that, we will get through that. I will help you. The brain is amazing. I can't necessarily help you, your therapist will help you. I could help you if you're one of my clients, but the brain is incredibly neuroplasticity. The brain has the ability to heal, you will heal. You cannot heal if you are not alive. So if you are feeling like you cannot keep your self safe, yes, we've got to get you to a hospital. But if you are just feeling like I don't really want to be here anymore, I wish I could just close my eyes and not wake up, and you don't necessarily have a full-fledged plan, I'm not sending to the hospital. Whew, I feel like that was really long-winded. I am clearly very passionate about that. So I hope that makes sense. Alyssa Scolari [28:28]: Myth number five, therapy is not confidential. Some people are afraid to talk to a therapist because they think that therapists can share their information. People don't realize the level of confidentiality that we need to abide by. It is the law, and we could get in so much trouble for breaking confidentiality. So that is not at all the case. We can break confidentiality if we have your written permission to do so in the form of a release of information. So you sign a release of information that says, I am allowing my therapist to speak to, I don't know, my primary care doctor, let's say for example. We can also break confidentiality if you are threatening to hurt somebody else, we have a duty to warn. Alyssa Scolari [29:24]: So we have to warn somebody if you are threatening to hurt that person. And we also can break confidentiality if we feel that you are a danger to yourself. So a danger to someone else or a danger to yourself, those are the only times we can break confidentiality. Other than that, we cannot, will not, do not say anything. We cannot even, let's say, you're in therapy and your partner is really, really worried about you, and your partner decides that they're going to call me. And they're like, "Hey, it's so and so's boyfriend, I'm just really, really worried. I really want to talk to you." I won't even return that phone call. And if I pick up the phone and they tell me who they are, I will say, "I can neither confirm nor deny anybody working with me without a release of the information. Goodbye." Alyssa Scolari [30:23]: I cannot even confirm that you are a client. Therapist cannot even confirm that you are a client. That is how extensive our confidentiality is. I cannot. If you are a child and you have a parent who sends me an email, I don't say much. Now, I technically can. The law is a little bit different with kids depending on the age, but because I am so protective of people's privacy and confidentiality, I often tell parents upfront, like, "This is how I operate." Because technically depending on their age, according to the law, there is information and that I have to disclose and divulge to parents. Alyssa Scolari [31:04]: It's a whole thing, not something that I'm going to get into, but as an adult, I could never even confirm originally, even if it was a doctor who called me, if they didn't have a release of information, I would say, "I can either confirm nor deny that I am working with this person without a release of information. Goodbye." So please know that therapy is entire confidential unless they have a release of information, your therapist has a release of information, or there is a threat or danger of harm to oneself or someone else. Alyssa Scolari [31:36]: Myth number six, you'll be in therapy forever. Oh, heck, no. The goal is to put ourselves out of a job as therapists. I want to put myself out of a job. I don't want you to be in therapy forever, that is not at all the goal. My goal is to make it so that you are okay to go out there and live on your own. Now, if you want to be in therapy forever, that is a different thing, a whole different thing. But the way that I work is yes, I do believe sometimes we do need to talk about the past, if you want to, if you're comfortable with that. Alyssa Scolari [32:15]: But my goal was to help regulate your nervous system and to help your brain heal from the trauma that you endured. That way you can live your life. So no, it's really never a therapist job to meet you and be like, "Oh, we're going to know each other forever." No, unless you want that. But therapy is time consuming, it can be expensive, and I'm aware of that. So my goal is to help you on your way and make myself unnecessary. And that's the way it should be for all therapists, really. Alyssa Scolari [32:51]: Myth number seven. Are we on myth number seven at this point? I think so. I think we are. All therapy is this same? No, no, no, not true. All therapy is very, very different. Every single therapist, even therapists who practice the same exact techniques will be different, because as therapists, we can't help, but bring who we are into the job, into our practice. So therapy with every single person is going to be different, but there's also many different types of therapy. There's dialectical behavioral therapy, where we're very heavily working on skills to help you stay emotionally regulated so that the intensity of your emotions isn't off the charts. Alyssa Scolari [33:40]: There's cognitive behavioral therapy, where we are working to change your thoughts and change the narrative in your head. There's EMDR, which I've talked about on here. There are a million different types of therapy out there, a million different approaches, and it is not a one-size-fits-all, which is why, as I mentioned in last week's episode, it's really important to try out a different therapist if you're not feeling like you're getting what you want from therapist you have, or talk to your therapist, because sometimes I take on different approaches based on what the feedback is from my client. Alyssa Scolari [34:25]: All right. The last one that I have for you, which is myth number eight, is therapists will tell you what to do and they will give you advice. This isn't necessarily the case at all, really. I don't tell people what to do. I hate to be told what to do, and I never want anyone telling me at all what to do, literally with anything, to the point where if you came in and told me the building was on fire and that I needed to jump out the window, I'll be like, "No, because you told me what to do." I am just, I hate it so much. And nobody likes it. Nobody likes to be told what to do. So we don't do that. We are not there to be like, "Oh, well, if you want to be happy, you just have to do this, this, this, and this. And then you'll be happy." Alyssa Scolari [35:16]: We are there to help you figure out how you can be happy. Now, yes, we are going to teach you skills, we are going to offer you ideas and maybe try to advise you on your options, but we will never say, "Oh, yeah, you need to take that job." Or, "No, you don't need to take that job." Or, "You need to break up with that person." I think this is also why a lot of people steer clear from going to therapy, especially when they're in relationship troubles, because people are so used to talking to... Have you ever had like a relationship trouble and you will talk to like a close friend or a family member and they'll be like, "You just need to dump his ass," or, "You just need to dump her ass or their ass"? Alyssa Scolari [36:05]: And it's like, "No, that's not what I'm doing, I don't want to." I think people are afraid of going to therapy because they don't want to hear that same crap. They don't want hear a therapist being like, "Ugh, you didn't break up with him again this week? Well, what are you doing? Why aren't you doing that?" No, we don't play like that. We don't do that. If you are not breaking up with somebody, that's your prerogative. That's your choice, it's your decision to make. Maybe you don't need to, maybe you're going to marry this person. Why would I tell you to break up with somebody? Alyssa Scolari [36:38]: If you're being abused, even then, I still wouldn't tell you what to do. I would call out what's happening. I will say, "This is abuse. This is gas lighting. This is this, this is that." But I'm not going to say, "You need to leave and you need to leave now." And the same holds true for really any kind of situation, again, unless you are threatening to harm someone else, or you are really threatening to hurt yourself, then that's when I'm like, "You have to go to a hospital," or, "I have to call this person and warn them." That's really the only time where therapists should be telling you directly what you have to do. We are there to guide you, we are there to let you know your options, we are there to point out things you might not see because of blind spots. We all have them, but we are not there to give you advice and tell you what to do. We are here to empower you, to make those decisions for yourself. Alyssa Scolari [37:40]: So those are the eight myths. There you have it. This has been a fun episode. This is fun to talk about. I hope that this helps. And if you notice any of these things that are coming up in your therapy session, talk to your therapist about it because it's important. It's important. I think this is what keeps people from, maybe not even... just that it keeps people from going to therapy, but it might also keep people from opening up when they are in therapy. So it's important stuff and I felt like it was a really good supplement to last week's episode, where we talked about how to find the right therapist for you. So that said, the one thing that I did forget to mention in the beginning of this episode is that March is over, so we are all done with the fundraiser for Ukraine. Alyssa Scolari [38:34]: In case you missed it, anybody who became a Patreon member for the month of March, any money that you donated from March, I was going to personally match, and we were going to donate it to Doctors Without Borders to fund the efforts in Ukraine. So we got about $50 and then I put in 60 of my own dollars. So we together are donating $110 to Ukraine, which is great. And if you are wanting to see the receipt for that, I have posted it on the Instagram page, our Instagram page, and that is lightaftertrauma. So head on over to our Instagram, you can see the receipt for the donation. Thank you so much for that. Alyssa Scolari [39:21]: You can still become a Patreon member. Any support you're able to give to the podcast would be great, whether it's becoming a Patreon member, leaving a review, I love it all. So thankful for the support, you all are amazing. I'm holding you in the light, and I will see you next week. Alyssa Scolari [39:39]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma, and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over, again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.    

Where do I even begin to look for a therapist? How do I know what I can afford? How can I know if I've found the right therapist for me? If you're thinking about getting a therapist but are feeling overwhelmed by all of it, this is the episode for you! Alyssa discusses some simple ways to begin looking for a therapist as well as how you can feel empowered in choosing the right person to help you on your healing journey.   **Every donation to Patreon for the month of March will go to Doctors Without Borders to help support those injured in Ukraine. Alyssa will personally match your donation. See the podcast Patreon and learn more about Doctors Without Borders below!** Learn more about Doctors Without Borders   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma   Transcript Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hello. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and we are back with another solo episode, took a little bit of a break last week and recycled an older episode about EMDR. And I hope that you all liked it because I know so many of you are new to this podcast. And we did that EMDR episode over a year ago at this point. And I think that it's a really good episode. It's one of my favorites that we've ever done on the show. Melissa Parks is amazing. So if you have not listened to it, I strongly encourage you to go check it out, because I think it's awesome. And part of the reason why I recycled that episode last week is because I've had quite a busy week this week and I really needed some time for just relaxation and recuperation. Alyssa Scolari [01:19]: I know I was mentioning in the last episode that things with my private practice have been a little bit just very hectic good, but, well, good and stressful, but hectic, nonetheless. And I also started EMDR myself. So at the time that I'm recording this, I had my first session this morning and I was so nervous. I really did not think I would be that nervous, but I have to say I loved it. It's really funny because I am so stubborn that it is infuriating, even to me sometimes. I have heard through and through from so many people that EMDR is exhausting, it's so tiring. It's really difficult for folks. It's very intensive. And so I walked into this guy's office, the therapist's office and he said exactly that he was like, I just want you to know this is, it's a really exhausting process. So make sure that your schedule is as clear as it can be for the rest of the day after your sessions. And I was like, eh, I'll be fine. It's fine. I'll power through, how exhausting can it be? Alyssa Scolari [02:40]: Oh my God, I was so wrong. I was so wrong. By six o'clock this evening, I could barely keep my eyes open. I had to just go take a shower and get ready for bed. And I had some dinner and I feel like I have a little bit more energy and I really wanted to record, because I wanted to talk about the stuff while it's fresh on my mind. So I have some energy, so I'm here recording, but honestly the first session was really good. We didn't get too deep into anything, but I was really proud of myself for going. And this therapist that I have is a male. And that was a really, really big challenge for me to have a male therapist. And I chose a male therapist almost intentionally. It's really hard to find a therapist right now. Alyssa Scolari [03:33]: Therapists, the demand is so high and there are few and far between. So it's really hard to find one. And I had reached out to a few women who specialized in EMDR and they did not have any openings. And then I found this place, this trauma center and the only people who had availability were male. And I was thinking to myself and I was like, do I want to do this? And I, even the thought of working with a male was really starting to make me upset. Just the thought was causing me a distress. And honestly, I took that as a sign that it's like, okay, I need to work on this. If just thinking about interacting with a male, aside from my husband, of course, is causing me that much stress, then maybe that's a sign that I actually should do this and should try to face my fear and process this and work through it. And I have to say, I'm really glad I did. Alyssa Scolari [04:41]: And now listen, that's not going to be the case for everybody. Please honor your fear response, honor your anxiety, honor where you're at in the moment, because trust me, there were times in my life where I was absolutely not. I never saw myself working with a male, but I just feel like it's time. I feel like it's time. And it went really well. It was really interesting. And I will be very curious to see where this goes and I'm looking forward to sharing it all with you. I have been exhausted, as I said, and I think that it's going to be a really intensive process, but I am really looking forward to feeling better. I couldn't be more excited about this. Alyssa Scolari [05:31]: So I feel like I made the right move. And when I was sitting with him today in his office, I realized, you know what? It's actually very, very hard to find the right therapist. And I'm not necessarily going to say a good therapist, because I don't really want to play so much judgment. I feel like most therapists, most, not all, are really doing the best they can. So I don't want to say good versus bad. I want to say the right therapist. It is way harder than I think people really even talk about. And I got very lucky and I don't know, I've only had one session. So who knows, I might go back next week and maybe something will happen and I'll be like, oh my goodness, I don't think this is going to work out. Building that relationship is going to take more than one session. Alyssa Scolari [06:30]: But I really liked him in that session. And it's actually rare to meet somebody the first time for therapy and feel like, okay, I got this. This is great. Maybe I shouldn't say rare. But what I should say is, it's not uncommon for people to go through a few different therapists before they find the right one. And I don't know if people even realize that there is a such thing as finding the right therapist. I think that so many folks go to therapy thinking that all therapists are generally the same and they don't realize that they have the power to say, I don't really think this is working for me. I think I might need to look for somebody else. And this just got me thinking about how so many folks don't really even know where to begin with looking for a therapist, because it is such an overwhelming and daunting task. And it's this fear of having to disclose all of your secrets or your trauma or your problems with somebody who is a complete stranger to you. People really don't know what to expect. Alyssa Scolari [07:50]: And it just hit me today while I was sitting in there as a first time client with this man, I was just sitting there and I was like, oh, I need to talk about this on the podcast, because people don't know, people don't realize that they have power and choices and options and they don't know what they should be looking for, where they should be looking. So I want to talk about that today, because even as somebody who's very aware of what it's like to navigate the finding a therapist world, this is what I do for a living. So I know what it's like. But even as somebody who is well aware of the process, it was still hard for me, not so much with this new therapist that I have, but it has still been hard for me in the past to find a therapist. Alyssa Scolari [08:45]: And I think that if I knew then what I know now, I wish that I could go back in time and equip my younger self with the tools that I have now to be able to be more selective about the therapists that I work with, because I have had some doozies. I have had some doozies for therapists, for sure. Again, I've had some bad therapists. I am going to play some judgment here. I've had some really shitty therapists, and I've had a very harmful therapists, therapists who have done things that honestly, one day I will tell you all about, but today is not that day. So I am here to talk about this today, to equip you with the tools, if you are somebody who is like, I want to start talking to somebody, but I'm afraid. I don't even know where to begin. It's very overwhelming. Can I afford it? We are going to talk about all of those things today. Alyssa Scolari [09:40]: So I want to start off first by talking about finances and touching on it briefly, because it, well, and I should say this. What I'm about to say is not necessarily going to be a universal. So I'm only aware as far as it concerns the United States, but I know we have listeners from all over the world. So I do not know if this is going to still hold true for you if you are in another country. So I'm just going to touch on this briefly. So in the United States, it basically comes down to therapists who accept insurance, and therapists who don't. If you're looking at certain websites for therapists, you might see a very common phrase called out-of-network. An out-of-network therapist means that they do not accept any insurance upfront, meaning that you would have to pay the full fee out-of-pocket. Alyssa Scolari [10:37]: Now, it can be very, very expensive to do that, especially if you're in therapy once a week, let's say your session is a hundred dollars an hour. And I don't know, that could be high in some places, that could be lower in some places. But let's say that the therapists fee is a hundred dollars an hour. Well, now you're looking at $400 a month. So these fees can add up. So out-of-network therapists can be expensive. But with that being said, there's something that you should know, which is that your insurance company, depending on what plan you have, may reimburse you a percentage of your therapist's fee. So if you are thinking that you might want to work with an out-of-network therapist, then you would call your insurance company and ask what are my out-of-network benefits for mental and be behavioral health. Alyssa Scolari [11:40]: And at that point, your insurance company is going to say, well, you don't have any on your plan, or, well, we will reimburse you 70% of every session. And if the therapist fee is a hundred dollars and your insurance is going to reimburse you 70%, what they're going to do is every 30 days, they're going to mail you a check. Well, I shouldn't say every 30 days, I think that it depends on the insurance company, but they're going to mail you a check for 70%, meaning you're now only paying $30 a session. Now, of course, that's assuming that you have that money to be able to put up front, that can also be a problem for folks. So these are just things for you to think about, but don't automatically shy away from out-of-network therapists because you never know, your insurance company might actually pay for a part of it. Of course, your insurance company doesn't like to tell you that, because they would rather have you see somebody in-network, but it doesn't hurt to ask. Alyssa Scolari [12:45]: And then, of course, you have your in-network therapists, and these are therapists who accept your insurance and you would pay, I think probably a smaller copay or really depends on your insurance plan, $30, $5, $10. And your therapist would be in charge for billing your insurance. And then the insurance company would pay your therapist. As opposed to you paying your therapist with an out-of-network person and your insurance then reimbursing you, it would be you just pay the copay and then your insurance company will pay your therapist. I hope that was not too confusing, but those are basically the two categories when it comes to looking at finances. And so you really want to think about that, in terms of the differences and competency levels. Honestly, I have a therapist who's out-of-network and I have a therapist who's also in-network right now. I have two therapists right now. Alyssa Scolari [13:44]: Is that a little bit out of the ordinary? Yes. Ideally we do not want to have more than one therapist, because things can get very messy. And who wants that much therapy? The reason that I have two therapists right now is because I am doing EMDR, which is a short term type of treatment. And I am sticking with the therapist that I have been with for quite some time now. So I just added a second therapist for the EMDR component, but it's definitely not a typical thing to have two therapists. So as I said, one of my therapists is out-of-network, one of my therapists is in-network. And I love, the therapist that I have been with the longest is in-network. My EMDR therapist is out-of-network, and I love the therapist that I have now. She's amazing. She has taught me so much. She has helped me heal from so much. Alyssa Scolari [14:47]: So I really can't say anything about the competency levels. It really isn't like, oh, this person's out-of-network, because they have a greater skillset and they're better. No, no, I really don't feel like that way whether it's in-network versus out-of-network. I also really don't feel that way when it comes to the degree type either. I have met people with master's degrees who are therapists and they are phenomenal, but I've also met psychologists, people with doctorate degrees who are also phenomenal. So none of that stuff really matters. Really the point in knowing if you have out-of-network benefits or not, is so you know what your options are, what are my choices when I'm going to look at a therapist? Because one of the most upsetting feelings is when you doing your research online and you go and you think you find a therapist and you read all through their profile and you love what you're reading. And you're like, oh my goodness. I think I could really see myself working with this person. And then you reach out to them and they're like, ah, I'm out-of-network. I'm out-of-network. I don't accept your insurance. Alyssa Scolari [16:04]: And then it just becomes disappointing because then you're like back to square one. So I think it's important to know what your options are. And I think it's something that's important to look out for when you are doing your searches. And speaking of searches, where do you search? Where do you even begin? One of the most common search engines for therapists and really for anything obviously is Google, but there are also some different sites where you can check off certain qualifications or specifications, especially when it comes to insurance, or when it comes to the type of therapy that you're looking for. And you can do that, there's a website called psychology today. So if you're not familiar with it, you can go right to www.psychologytoday.com, and then you can list either your zip code or the town that you live in and your insurance and your age. And then it will give you a list of all therapists in that area that meet those very specific qualifications. Alyssa Scolari [17:09]: That saves you a lot of time, because then you're not rifling through Google, looking for therapist after therapist, having to click on the page, read through, see if they take insurance, websites like Psychology Today save if you a ton of time. And then there's also a website called GoodTherapy. That is very, very helpful for people too, so I think it's www.goodtherapy.com. And there are other websites, but those are two of the main ones that I see. There's definitely a bunch of others. So you will certainly find them, even if you just google therapist, therapist websites, or websites to search for a therapist on, you will find plenty, but it was probably a lot more time saving for you to go through a website like that rather than Google. Alyssa Scolari [18:03]: Now, with that being said, not every therapist is necessarily listed on those websites. So maybe Google will be your friend. Who knows. It's difficult. It's one of those things when you have to try to see for yourself what feels right for you. So, that's just the therapist search. Then comes scheduling an appointment and getting in the door. That is the hardest part is showing up to your first session. And I feel like so many people don't realize when they go to their first session, that they are interviewing the therapist just as much as the therapist is questioning or interviewing them. Alyssa Scolari [18:51]: I don't think people realize that they can ask questions to their therapist. They can ask about their degrees. You can ask about their specialties, their training, their experiences. These are things you would want to know, because ultimately you are entrusting this person with your care. And if you went to a doctor and you hated that doctor, you wouldn't go back to that doctor. I would hope not. You would be like, forget that doctor. I'm never going back. Same thing goes for a therapist. I don't know if people really understand the variability that comes among therapists. And it really is a matter of you trying to find what you are looking for. Some people want a therapist who is a blank slate, who can sit there and be like a mirror who just reflects back what you're saying. Some people really want that. Some people hate that. Some people want a therapist who is a little bit more involved, who can give. Some advice, who can give some opinions and thoughts. Some people are looking for that. Alyssa Scolari [20:01]: It completely depends. You might not even know what you're looking for until you walk in, until you walk right into the office and sit down and start talking to that person, you might be like, I don't even know if I'm feeling this or, oh, I really do like this. Here's the thing about therapy. And I say this to everybody who comes in my office, their very first session, any single one of my clients can attest to the fact that I've had this spiel with them. The most important predictor of success in therapy is the relationship that you have with your therapist. So, if at the end of the day you aren't looking forward to talking to your therapist. If you don't really care for your therapist that much. If you disagree with the way your therapist does things, you are not going to really make much progress or headway in therapy, because the most important thing is feeling like you have a good connection and a good relationship. Alyssa Scolari [21:07]: So I encourage you when you do start meeting with therapists, and when you do sit down for those appointments, ask questions, maybe write down ahead of time what kind of questions do you have? What would you want to know about somebody who you are entrusting with your trauma? What would you want to know? Some things that I'd like to know is what's your experience with this? What types of trauma have you worked with? Something I would like to know is why? Why do you do what you do? I think that's a really important question. I really like vulnerability. I think that when you are able to see your therapist as a human being, I think that, that can be really, really powerful. Alyssa Scolari [21:58]: So maybe ask that question, why did you choose to do that? And again, you're not asking so you can get your therapist to disclose their deepest, darkest vulnerabilities, but it's just like, why do you care? It's almost like, why do you care about me? Why would you care about this? What do you do this for? Any therapist, I think would be more than happy to answer that question. And along with any other questions you may have that aren't, again, super invasive. You don't want walk in there and be like, how many kids do you have? Do you have a history of trauma? Are you married? Have you ever had an addiction? We're not grilling them. We're not grilling them, but asking questions that pertain to you and the treatment process. You are interviewing your therapist. Alyssa Scolari [22:48]: And if you don't like it, you don't have to stay. That is one of the most important things. I wish I had known this when I was younger, the very first therapist I ever had. Oh, for the love of God, she was great. However, she couldn't be great all of the time and nobody can. I'm not expecting perfection. But what I mean by that is when she was focused, she was really helpful to me. But there were so many times throughout our sessions where I would be talking about something horrific. I had just gotten out of an abusive relationship. My whole family turned against me. Nobody was talking to me. I was so lost and so isolated because everybody blamed me for what happened. Alyssa Scolari [23:55]: So I am about as raw and as vulnerable as I could possibly be. And I would be sitting there trying to talk to her, and in the middle of me talking, she would cut me off because she would be like, oh my God, I have to get up and I have to fix the blinds. The blinds are uneven. The blinds are uneven. I'm sorry, I have ADHD. I'm sorry, I have ADHD. And she would say that to me, I would be in the middle, not to mention during this time I was so sick with anorexia, that it is actually very upsetting to even think about. And I remember there was this one time where I was telling her that I was not eating. I was like, hey, I think that I have a little bit of a problem, because I'm not eating, and I hate my body all of the time. Alyssa Scolari [24:48]: And in the middle of me trying to say that, she cut me off and was like, oh my God, do you see these curtains? Do you see how uneven they are? And there was another chair sitting next to me in the office. Yo, this woman, this woman got up out of her chair, walked over to me, stepped up on the chair next to me, took the curtain rod off and was readjusting the curtains as I was trying to tell her that I was not eating. And then she had really no remorse. I don't even think she realized how inappropriate it was. I didn't even realize it, because I had never had another therapist. I didn't realize that was wrong. I was so used to being ignored and unheard. Alyssa Scolari [25:45]: And so I'm like, okay, well, she's just not listening to me right now. So, that's an extreme example. I'm not saying that you are going to maybe pick up on something like that, because I actually don't think most therapists do that. She was wildly inappropriate. I hope most therapists don't do that. If they do, we've got problems, we've got big problems. But look for things that make you feel uncomfortable. And when I say look for things, I don't mean actively seek out and try to find something wrong with your therapist. Listen, none of us are perfect. Are you kidding me? There are times where I have cut people off. I've been aware of it. There are times where I have said things that I have meant to be helpful, but were not helpful, and may have been hurtful. And I've had to own that and sit with that. We are not perfect. Alyssa Scolari [26:47]: So I'm not saying go looking for something that's wrong. What I'm saying is pay attention to those feelings in your gut that say, I don't know if this is going to work. If you're really feeling uncomfortable and not really wanting to talk or open up, pay attention to that, try to figure out why? Maybe it is something you talk to your therapist about. I actually think that, that is the way to go. If you're not feeling something, or if you have concerns about something, talk to your therapist about it if you feel safe. If you don't feel safe, and if you're like, this person is absolutely not the one for me, and I feel really unsafe emotionally, not physically, if you feel physically unsafe, well, again, we got real big problems than we got to talk, but I'm talking about a sense of emotional safety here. Alyssa Scolari [27:46]: So those are things you need to pay attention to. And if you feel like you can't bring it up with your therapist, or you just don't feel comfortable talking to your therapist about it, then maybe that's a sign that this isn't the right therapist for you. And maybe not. Maybe it's just a sign that you've had a bad week. What I'm saying here, the advice that I'm giving, it's not a blanket statement. It's not blanket advice, meaning it's not something that's going to apply in every single situation. I love the therapist I have now, but I can tell you that there are some days where I'm like, I can't talk to her today. I can't open up to her today, but that doesn't have anything to do with her making me uncomfortable. Alyssa Scolari [28:27]: I hope that this is making sense for you all who are listening on the other side, because I do not want you to walk away from this thinking, oh, well, I felt like I couldn't really open up to my therapist today. So they must be terrible and I must not be doing this right. And I must need a new therapist. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that you have the power to walk away. You have the power to ask questions and that you are in the driver's seat. You are the one in control here. Yes, your therapist is technically an authoritative figure. Your therapist is the professional there helping you as the client, but this is your treatment. This is your care. And nobody knows the way to help you better than you, not even the best therapist on the face of the planet. Alyssa Scolari [29:21]: So I just want you to feel empowered, to be able to recognize that and make those decisions. I wish that I knew what I know now about being able to walk away from a therapist, about the fact that it's okay if you don't click with a therapist. That's totally fine, and even normal. I remember I had another therapist who I saw for a few sessions and I was, again, this was when I was in the thick of my anorexia and I was hating my body. I was really, really severe with a body dysmorphia. And this therapist kept saying, but Alyssa, you're beautiful. You're beautiful. You're skinny. And you're so pretty. And it made me really uncomfortable. I didn't understand why back then, because I really didn't know much about eating disorders. I didn't even understand that I had an eating disorder. Alyssa Scolari [30:22]: And we know now, I know now that, that's not the thing to say to somebody who is struggling with that kind of stuff, it's really not at all. It just further terrified me because I knew that I was incapable of remaining that thin for the rest of my life. And she was glorifying me for my thinness, but you're beautiful and you're thin and you have nothing to worry about. So there was a little bit of some fat phobia there. She was not an eating disorder therapist, and it was not a good fit. I didn't feel that I could tell her that. And so I totally ghosted her and I really do regret it, because being a therapist now, I know that's not a good feeling. It's a horrible feeling when clients ghost you. And I wish that I had the tools back then to know, hey, it's okay to say, I'm sorry, but I just don't think we're a good fit, but thank you for your time, in a simple email. Alyssa Scolari [31:30]: I wish I would've done that. I didn't. And I don't even remember her name at this point, but again, I think I would've saved myself so much trouble and I would've felt less guilty about leaving and walking away. And I would've found a therapist who was a better fit for me much sooner if I knew that I could. So I hope that this is making sense and that this is helpful. It's so important when it comes to trying to find somebody who can help you, because this isn't something to be taken lightly. The person that you want to help you is going to be there for you in your most vulnerable moments. And that's not something that I want you or anybody to walk into blindly, or feeling like you don't have control. You have control. Just because you have one session with a therapist does not mean that you are committed, and your voice matters in therapy. Alyssa Scolari [32:41]: So if you are thinking about starting therapy, or if you're with a therapist right now that you don't know if it's really doing you a whole lot of good, or you don't really know if you're connecting very well. These are just some things I want you to think about. Start asking questions, start doing some reflection, start seeing if there's anyone else out there who you think might be a little bit better for you, or maybe just consider the fact that you're having a really bad week and it's really hard to open up. I can't answer that for you, I wish I could, but I do know that if you keep these things in mind that I've talked about today, it's going to help get you the answers that you need, and it's going to help get you better therapy. Therapy where you feel comfortable, where you can be vulnerable, therapy that isn't breaking the bank, all of the above. Alyssa Scolari [33:38]: So on that note, I will close off by saying thank you as always for all of the support. Just some housekeeping things. So for the entire month of March, we are making donations to Doctors Without Borders, who are right now helping in Ukraine. And you can go right to the links in the show notes and learn more about Doctors Without Borders. But if you sign up to become a Patreon member for the month of March, whatever you donate for March on my Patreon, I will match your donation and that money will go directly to Doctors Without Borders. Thank you so much for the patrons who have signed up so far. It is really exciting. Also remember that if you are a patron, you can message me on there and you can ask for specific episode topics that I'd be more than happy to talk about. And again, all of it is in the show notes. And I am wishing you all a wonderful week. I love you all. I am so grateful for the support. I am holding you in the light and I will see you next week. Alyssa Scolari [34:56]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram we are at Light After Trauma, and on Twitter it is at Light After Pod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over, again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support. Speaker 4 [35:33]: Sunday morning lost my shoes, I got [lust 00:35:47] in you.

REDUX: Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) is one of the leading treatments for PTSD. Melissa Parks breaks down how this therapy can help you recover and why it is so highly effective. NEW: Alyssa also shares her personal journey with starting this type of treatment.   **Every donation to Patreon for the month of March will go to Doctors Without Borders to help support those injured in Ukraine. Alyssa will personally match your donation. See the podcast Patreon and learn more about Doctors Without Borders below!** Patreon Learn more about Doctors Without Borders   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma   Transcript Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey everybody, what's up? Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma Podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari, and I am recording this episode on a gorgeous Friday morning. I am in a good mood. But it has honestly been a rough week, or I should say like a rough couple of weeks. I don't know what is going on or what is in the air, but man, I just feel like things have been so hard. It's just, I think there's a lot going on between people trying to get back to living a semi-normal life or a new normal and everybody is having parties and hosting things. And it's really exciting, but as somebody who is like an introvert inside and somebody who has really spent a lot of time indoors over the last two years for the pandemic, it causes me kind of a lot of anxiety to suddenly go from not being invited anywhere to being invited to all of these places every single weekend. Alyssa Scolari [01:31]: And just things with my practice, like my private practice have been, I don't want to say difficult, but not the easiest or the happiest I should say. Not that I'm unhappy in my job, I love what I do, but there are times where this job is really hard and I have had to set a lot of firm boundaries the last couple of weeks. And setting boundaries is really, really hard for me, it's extremely triggering. Because when I set a boundary, I have this massive fear that something bad is going to happen. So, it's just been a week for me filled with a lot of anxiety, still recovering from surgery, still going to physical therapy. So, whatever, it's really neither here nor there. Alyssa Scolari [02:21]: All of that is to say that it's been difficult. I'm in a good mood today, the sun is shining, but the last few weeks have been a little bit rough for me. And with that being said, this week's episode is an episode that was recorded and that went live a year, a little more than a year ago, so early March of 2021. And I am replaying it today because it is very fitting and it's one of our most popular episodes. But it came out when the podcast was very, very new. So, for everybody who is new, this episode might be brand new for you. And even if it's not, it's something that's important to listen to even again and something that you may or may not want to consider. Alyssa Scolari [03:10]: And so, basically, what we're doing today is I am reposting the EMDR episode. So, EMDR is this specific type of trauma therapy that is used to treat both standard PTSD and complex PTSD, and it has a ton of research backing its effectiveness. And it really works on rewiring the brain. Because trauma is rooted in the brain, it sometimes makes talk therapy, which sometimes makes talk therapy not enough. Some people do great with talk therapy, and for some people, it truly isn't enough. I find that with some folks with complex PTSD, talk therapy is not always sufficient. It's definitely necessary, of course, but sometimes we need a little bit more. Alyssa Scolari [03:59]: And that has been the case that I have been finding with myself. Last week, we talked about cultivating safety in order to be able to do the trauma work. And the thing about EMDR is that is crucial. You need a sense of safety, because EMDR is intensive and it's very difficult. And that being said, it's also very short-term so it's not something where you're doing for years and years and years. But it's an intensive process. So, I've just been feeling lately like I want to do more to help my nervous system because I've come very far and I'm doing extremely well, but I still have all of these triggers that are just causing my nervous system to go haywire. Alyssa Scolari [04:49]: And it is becoming just a really big inconvenience for me to get triggered over a sound, over a site and then have flashbacks. And as much work as I've done, I feel like my brain is still on fire sometimes. So, I have really been feeling like over the last couple of months that now that I'm through my surgery and I'm recovering, I am ready to take my healing to a different level and to try this out. I also really want to try it because if it's something that I find is very effective, I am considering getting trained in it so I can help my clients. So, I am going to be starting EMDR this week and I'm really excited. I am going to be staying with the therapist that I currently have. Alyssa Scolari [05:43]: Now, the therapist I currently have is not trained in EMDR, but I am actually bringing on a second therapist and he's going to be more of a short-term therapist because he's the EMDR specialist. So, my first appointment is this week and I'm really excited and also really nervous, and I'm looking forward to bringing you all along on this journey. So, I will, of course, keep you all posted. We will see how it goes. I feel ready for it, I feel ready for this next step in my healing. Not that this step is any better or any worse than any of the other steps, if EMDR is not for you, that is totally fine. But I just think it's interesting to try to explore this option for healing. Why not? I'm in a place where I feel good and ready for it. Alyssa Scolari [06:37]: So, that is what is up for this week. I am excitedly and anxiously anticipating it and I thought that it would be helpful for both myself and everybody to relisten to this episode with Melissa, who is the EMDR specialist. She also is on TikTok. She's hysterical, but you will hear all about that in the episode. So, I hope you enjoy. I have found this episode fascinating. EMDR was a very convoluted topic for me and a very seemingly overwhelming type of therapy that I always stayed away from, I never really wanted to look at because it just seemed like too difficult or complex for me. But I think that this episode is really great because Melissa breaks it down and makes it more digestible. Alyssa Scolari [07:29]: So, I will stop talking now. Oh, no, I will not stop talking actually, because just a few housekeeping things. Please remember that for the entire month of March, we are donating to Ukraine. So, if you sign up to become a member on Patreon, whatever money that you donate for the first, for the month of March, is going to go directly to Doctors Without Borders to help with the efforts in Ukraine. I have my Patreon linked in the show notes and also of the Doctors Without Borders linked in the show notes so that you can check it out and see if it's something that you're interested in. Thank you so much to people who have already donated. This is so exciting. Alyssa Scolari [08:09]: I know that we're a pretty small platform so we're not going to be raising thousands and thousands of dollars, but honestly, any little bit helps and counts and is going to help people in Ukraine so much. So, I'm really excited about this. If you want to be a part of it and you want to donate, please go to the show notes. Again, if you become a Patreon member for the month of March, your first month's donations are going directly to Doctors Without Borders and I am also matching your donation. So, now, I will stop and I will let you get on with the episode where Melissa and I talk about EMDR. I have so much love for you all and I am holding you all on the light, and I'll be back again next week. intro music Alyssa Scolari:  Hey all what's up. Welcome to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. And we have here with us today, Melissa Parks. So you have Melissa and Alyssa, so it's going to be a good time. Melissa is an EMDR therapist, as well as a couples therapist. She is devoted to helping you stop the cycle of conflict in your relationships and to understand your nervous system in order to experience more joy, she has been using her expertise and her humor on social media to de-stigmatize mental health, you will often hear her use the phrase you make sense. So just a quick side note, I found Melissa on Tik-Tok. She is a bomb Tik-Tok maker. I thoroughly enjoy watching all of your Tik-Tok. So when she says that she uses humor as part of her therapy, she is not kidding. Her Tik-Toks are really funny and I really appreciate them. So, hi, Melissa. Welcome. And thank you for all that you do. Melissa Parks: Hey, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you so much for having me. It's a true honor. I'm excited. Alyssa Scolari:  I'm so excited for you to be here and to talk about a topic that quite honestly, I don't really know a whole lot about. So this is going to be a major learning experience for me as well as a lot of the listeners. So would you be able to share a little bit more on like what you do, who you are and could you break down that like gigantic acronym? That is EMDR. Melissa Parks:  Yes. Yes, absolutely. Well, like you so beautifully said, I am a therapist, a couples therapists, EMDR therapist. I do coaching. I do consultation. I do lots of things, but I treat clients in the state of South Carolina and I am so passionate about that. I came into the field and have been licensed for 17 years, and I still feel just as passionate, if not, even more passionate than I was when I first started, I really am on fire for all this stuff. In terms of EMDR trauma-focused stuff, attachment focused stuff. It's just my favorite. It's just one of my favorite things. So I'm excited to be able to talk about this today to maybe help bridge the understanding for folks because you know, it can be kind of, you know, intimidating when you just, the acronym, like you said, is a little intimidating: Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. That's a mouthful. Alyssa Scolari:  Yes, it is. Melissa Parks:  It's like what is Well I'd love to take some time to explain some about it and then. Open up for questions. Definitely. But Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing is an evidence-based treatment model, which just means that it has extensive research and it's been proven .It has proven outcomes and way back when it was only used to treat trauma, but now we know that it can treat trauma, it can treat complex trauma, it can treat a myriad of issues, including distressing symptoms, like chronic depression, anxiety, just a whole host of things. So it's not just trauma. And it's based on a model that theorizes that our current symptoms are a result of unprocessed memories from our past that are showing up in our present. So for example, the brain may have had an experience from the past and it was unable to integrate all the components of that experience. And so what happens is our amazing nervous system comes up for us to protect us, to keep us sane and it fragments that experience into pieces. And that's what we see in our current day are those fragments of the experience as our symptoms. Overwhelming feelings, body sensations, whatever they are. That's what our symptoms are. That's what this EMDR model is based on. It's basically saying our past is in our present. Alyssa Scolari:  I gotcha. And when you say just to, and I don't mean to interrupt, I just had a quick thought, when you say unprocessed memories, do you mean repressed memories that are stored in our subconscious that haven't come to conscious, or could it be both, both repressed memories and suppressed memory. So things that we can recall, but just haven't really digested or integrated. Melissa Parks:  Right, right, right. I would say all the above, I would say all the above and when we're talking, you know, cause I would say all of us have unprocessed memories. So, I mean, we all do, but when it comes to trauma, that's a different story. When it comes to trauma, that's a little bit more in depth, a little bit more intense because with a trauma experience we have an experience that's too much, too soon, too much for too long or too little, for too long. So think like neglect. And in those situations, the signals from the amygdala, the fear center of the brain are so much, are so intense that the top part of our brain, which usually down-regulates and helps soothe that fear is gone. And this experience causes the integrative functions in the brain to fail. And so that's where we have that fragmenting that happens. So this is more of what, where I'm talking about the fragmented pieces as it relates to trauma. But yes, I think we all have unprocessed memories. The research talks about this and we learn about this when we're initially being trained in EMDR. Alyssa Scolari:  Wow. So, so what does that look like in practice? From what I understand, there's lots of, and this could just be one of my own myths or beliefs, there's lots of tapping that happens. Am I right on that one? Melissa Parks:  Yes, that's what EMDR is known for. But so before I go into that, which is really helpful. So with all that, I just said that, you know, we have these fragmented parts, these assimilated parts of a memory that are showing up in our present. This is why EMDR is so awesome because EMDR is a bottom up brain approach. It's a treatment of association. So it helps us associate those dissociated parts. And when, I mean, by bottom up, so a lot of treatments out there spend a lot of time in that top part of our brain, which is our more sophisticated part of our brain, which holds more of our thinking stuff, the way that we rationalize. And we think about things and those are helpful too. But if we have trauma. And if we have all these fragmented pieces that are coming up from our past, we can't think those away. Our body is taking over. And so EMDR comes to help us from the bottom part of the brain to help us associate those things and assimilate those things. And this is why, you know, it's really important to just put that out there and recognize the impact of EMDR from that perspective, how it treats the brain and how we integrate in that way. But that's what EMDR is known for is the tapping, right. Or the eye movements. Alyssa Scolari:  That's what I've always heard. Yeah, I'm sure that's only part of it. Yeah. I do want to just say for the listeners out there, you all won't be able to see this, but as Melissa was saying that, you know, talking about bringing these essentially disassociated or disconnected parts and connecting them, she was almost interlacing her fingers, which I think is a really great portrayal of what you're trying to say, which is we're taking all of these pieces and we're integrating them. It is like the full integration of the brain from a bottom up approach instead of surface level down approach. If I'm understanding that correctly. Melissa Parks:  Yes, you are 100%. And I think it's important to also note here is that EMDR is like a resilience model, which means it believes that we have everything that we need to heal. The clinician is just sort of the conductor and whatnot, but it believes that we are all wired with resilience and that something got in the way, right. Trauma, for example, got in the way and sort of rewired ourselves towards self protection instead of connection or these other things. But EMDR really operates out of this stance that you have what you need, and that resiliency is there and you are adaptive and we're going to work with all that, which is beautiful. And why I particularly love this model and that it's so trauma-informed and resilience based. Alyssa Scolari:  Yeah, that's very empowering. Very empowering. Melissa Parks:  It is very much though. So with the bilateral stimulation is what you're talking about. So the tapping or the eye movements, that's only, you know, that's not an all eight phases of EMDR because this is an eight phase model. So we're doing. Yes. Yes. And some clients come in, when are we going to do EMDR? And I'll say, well, we've been doing it ever since you came in because you know, part of EMDR also involves case conceptualization, taking a history, doing a treatment plan, which we're not doing tapping or bilateral stimulation through that. But that is typically what people think EMDR is moving the eyes and the tapping. And so I'm happy to talk about that piece because it is a pretty important piece. And it's probably what sort of separates EMDR from many of these other therapies, Alyssa Scolari:  Right, right. Because another therapies it's just primarily talk therapy unless you were doing, you know, neurofeedback or something of that sort. But... Melissa Parks:  RIght. Alyssa Scolari:  is more of like a, I don't know, it's like tapping into the brain. It sounds like. Melissa Parks:  No pun intended, right? Alyssa Scolari:  Right. I was going to say no pun intended, but pun fully intended, definitely tapping into the brain. Melissa Parks:  Yes. So treatment of EMDR really involves some procedures where number one, we are activating these old memories. By way of sensations, images, beliefs, feelings. So we want to activate that. And part of that involves this dual attention because we don't want to activate something like that and retraumatize you. We don't want to activate that and get you back into the memory where you're fully immersed in it, and it is overwhelming and it takes you outside of your window of tolerance. That is not what we want to happen, but we want to activate that where we have one foot in that past issue. And then we also have one foot in the present day where you're in the office with the client and or with the clinician. So one foot in the past one foot in the present. So we're activating the memory with all of those components. And then this is where we bring in the bilateral stimulation. And this is rhythmic side to side stimulation. Left ,right, left, right. And this is, by way of eye movements. So the clinician can wave their fingers in front of the eyes of the client that the eyes will pass the midline. We can use hand tapping. I have little buzzers where they hold the little buzzers and it kind of buzzes back and forth. You can do tones in the ears, but either way it's stimulating left, right, left, right. And this activates and integrates information from both sides of the brain. And so we have full brain integration. So we're setting up a state for the system to do what we wanted it to do. Back during the trauma, we're setting up a state for the system to bring those dissociated pieces together, associate them again in a safe way, and sometimes in a titrated way. Meaning we only take a little bit at a time because we don't want to overwhelm the client. And as a result, the old memory ends up being stored properly. The components of the memory are now timestamped appropriately. Cause remember I said, our symptoms are the past and the present. Well now when we set up this state and we help the brain integrate. Those parts can say: "Oh, we belong back here when I was 10, we don't belong here when I'm 30 anymore." So those old parts are now integrated (and) oriented to the correct time. And our distress is reduced about the whole situation. And we also take what is useful in terms of our thoughts about a memory, for example, It's over or unsafe now, or I am good ,or something. And then we can take that into our future and move forward. The results of this are just quite amazing, but ultimately we set up this state and we let the nervous system do its thing. Alyssa Scolari:  That is absolutely fascinating. Melissa Parks:  I know I got chills when I talk about it, even though I've done it so many times. Cause it's just so cool. Alyssa Scolari:  Yes, your passion for it is palpable. And just, as I'm listening to you talk, I think it's such a beautiful description. I have had it explained to me so many times, and I have to be honest. I still am, like, after somebody explains it to me and I'm still like, okay, but I don't get it. The way that you're putting it is incredible because there are so many times that I will say to not only my patients who I treat, but also to myself when I'm triggered is "Okay, are these feelings about the past, or are these feelings about the present?" And what EMDR does is it sounds like it gives your brain and your nervous system, the ability to be like,"Nope, this belongs, you know, for the time that we were enduring the abuse. This is what belongs in the present. This is what we're going to take into the future." Melissa Parks:  That's right. That's right. Alyssa Scolari:  That is incredible. Melissa Parks:  Yes. Yes. And this is what our brain wanted to do at that time. Right. It really did, but it couldn't. It's wired to, because that's part of what the hippocampus does. The hippocampus is the integrating function of the brain, but it couldn't. Because things were too much, too soon, too fast, too little for too long. Alyssa Scolari:  Way too much to process. Melissa Parks:  All those too Yes Yes yes yes And so but how beautiful is it that for our survival and for our sanity it knew something else to do, to fragment these pieces. It's beautiful Like my gosh. Our brains are incredible. That's the part where I love too, is like, You know, instead of looking at it from the pathological lens, it's like, no, this is amazing that our nervous system protected us in this way. Just amazing. Alyssa Scolari:  I love that you are saying this because I have been on such a soap box lately about pathology and how much I loathe it entirely, which I understand, you know, we need the DSM for some things, which for the listeners out there, the DSM is the book with all of the mental health disorders. But I'm just right on board with you where so much of what we experience is a result of our brain, trying to protect us, which is actually so normal and not pathological. Melissa Parks:  That's right. Agreed. 100%. Alyssa Scolari:  I am so passionate, so passionate about that. I'll get off my soap box now. But I have to ask. So what sparked your passion to get into this field and specifically like the EMDR niche? Melissa Parks:  Well, I feel like, so I, you know, I'm thinking like way back when I, you know, went into school, but I feel like for a lot of us clinicians out there, there's some clinicians that go into it because it's in the family or that kind of thing. Like we know somebody close to us that is a therapist or... I went in it to become more self-aware and to search for healing, because of my own childhood experiences and my own difficulties and my own trauma. And so that's probably, if I were to go right back to the brass tacks of it, of why I even started my journey towards becoming a therapist, that's where I would say it began. And I can't discount....I feel like there's a spiritual component there because I went into college when I was an itty-bitty, you know, teenager. And so it's hard to imagine that my teenage brain was like, Oh, let's do all of this. And, you know, cause that's just not the case. My prefrontal cortex wasn't even completely developed. So I feel like there's a spiritual component there for me, at least that there was a pathway for this for me, but I definitely had that passion to want to learn about myself and why I was the way I was and what was happening there. And then turning that around to:I want to help others. I want to help others see, like we just said, this non-pathological lens that there is nothing wrong with you. In fact, you have done the best that you can. And so that's where a lot of my passion comes. And then probably in terms of, EMDR where I was first introduced to that. I was almost fresh out of grad school and my supervisor did EMDR. Now, of course, this was like almost 20 years ago and EMDR has changed a little bit over the years. And so back then it was kind of like this like woo-woo sorta thing, but she just amazed me and the way that she saw these results with her clients. And so my interest was sparked way back then and I started learning little bits and pieces along the way. And of course, once I had my own training and my certification and all that stuff, like, that was it. But I also have a love for attachment. So I'd also do couples therapy too. And that is why I also make attachment a huge part of my EMDR treatment as well. So I do a lot of attachment focused EMDR too. Alyssa Scolari:  You can incorporate EMDR in couples work as well? Melissa Parks:  Okay. I've not treated couples with both of them in the room with EMDR. I think there's probably, maybe some people that do that. But there have been times where I'm working with a couple and we realized that there are some things that are at play here that trace back to trauma that are really impeding our progress in order to create a secure bond. And so in that case, we may branch off and do a little bit of EMDR for each or one of the components of the couple and then return. Alyssa Scolari: Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Melissa Parks:  But when I say attachment focused EMDR, I'm talking a lot about people that have PTSD, so childhood trauma or developmental trauma, and we really need to bring in that attachment perspective to the EMDR work. Alyssa Scolari: Yes, because it's almost, you know, if you do have complex PTSD, it is almost impossible. Nothing's impossible, but it is extremely, extremely difficult to be able to have a functional relationship when you have not worked through... Melissa Parks:  yeah. Yeah, Alyssa Scolari:  ...the attachment. You know, even having been in my own treatment for... how many years now? I don't know. Well, multiple years at this point, I still have those triggers that come up about abandonment. And so I can only imagine. Melissa Parks:  Rection. Yeah absolutely. Yes. Alyssa Scolari:  Rejection in what I think other people might feel are just like the silliest ways. That's like, well, what do you mean you're going to go play video games with your friends? Melissa Parks:  And there it is the past and the present. Right? There it is. Alyssa Scolari:  So EMDR I have heard, and maybe you can speak a little bit on this. Somebody had mentioned it in one of my previous podcasts, and then I've had a couple of colleagues talk about this, that it can be a very, very exhausting process. So can you speak a little bit on that? Like how is it draining? Why so draining? What are your thoughts on that? Melissa Parks:  Yeah, I have plenty of clients that will say to me, I have to clear my schedule after our session and or creating our next appointment time, I want to make sure that I'm doing it where I have nothing for the rest of the day. I mean, this can be a common experience. And then often, you know, if I have somebody that comes in that has something to do in that afternoon, we might really talk about whether or not we want to go into that... ...Phase Four, which is the desensitization using the bilateral stimulation because yeah, it can be draining. I mean, I think just the thought of going back into an experience and going back into an experience that our body and our system tries so hard not to, I mean, that alone kind of like speaks to probably the reasons why you might feel so drained afterward. Alyssa Scolari:  Yes cause you are having to actively revisit your trauma. So I suppose that speaks to the importance that like the decision to pursue EMDR is not a decision that one should make sort of like Willy nilly. Like I have 95 other thousand things going on in my life right now. But I'm going to jump into EMDR. Like not a good idea. Melissa Parks:  Yes. Yes. And I would also say that sometimes can be par for the course, but also knowing that if we've spent a lot of time in Phase Two, which is the preparation phase, this is where we're setting ourselves up for how do we deal with the aftermath of this so that we're not pushed out of our window of tolerance after our session. We know. Okay,, I know some things that I can do to help regulate my nervous system. If I start to feel myself kind of getting amped up again or things I can do to help contain it, if I feel triggered and, or sort of distract myself in a healthy way, that's not dissociative or we're working with the parts that might come up and we have identified things that we can do in the event that afterward we do feel really drained or we do fear feel really triggered. And so that can make a huge difference. Alyssa Scolari:  Yes, setting up a before plan and after plan, making sure that the safety and all of the tools are put in place. Melissa Parks:  That's right. That's right. Cause you know, we really have to, we really have to recognize the importance of, and the nature of this work. We are treating very vulnerable parts within the client and we want to really focus on the importance of that and the sensitivity of that. We do not want to re-traumatize or we don't want to you know, so it's really important for the clinician to, you know, take a really good history to really assess the client for all of these things that could potentially be problematic and to empower the client to set up skills if needed, like all of this stuff should be done on the forefront. So it's not all up to the client to say, "Oh, well, I shouldn't choose this" because there are things that we can do together to make sure that in the event it is draining or it is triggering. You can still feel like you have agency over yourself and over the situation. Alyssa Scolari:  I think that what you're saying is so important because it also speaks to I think the significance of finding a therapist who is well equipped to be able to see you through this process. You know, this is not something that you want to walk in. Unfortunately, I do have two clients now who I've ended up seeing after walking into a therapist's office who is certified in EMDR and during the first session, they went into the bilateral stimulation, Melissa Parks:  That's Yeah. Yep. You got it. Alyssa Scolari: They did that the first session, the first time meeting this person, and as a result, were really, really unraveled is the word I'm lookin for. Melissa Parks:  Oh, sure. For sure. It's concerning to say the least. I'm so sorry that that happened for your client because essentially what that also does too, is the client is not sort of, I don't want to say shutdown, but if the session isn't closed down properly and or if they are pushed outside of their window of tolerance, It's not repaired. It's not corrected. What does that do? That confirms that old experience that you are not safe. And as a result, like I said, kind of an experience of retraumatization and that is really unfortunate. That's really unfortunate. Alyssa Scolari:  Yeah, I think that is very unfortunate and that is not the norm. You know, that is what I'm hearing you say. Melissa Parks:  I would hope so. I would hope so. Alyssa Scolari:  Right. We hope and pray that that's not the norm. It is important, what I hear you say, to be able to establish that rapport with the client, to be able to do a full assessment, to be able to create a sense of safety so that the vulnerability can be there so that the healing process and the integration can begin. Melissa Parks:  So there's things that the client can do, certainly. And when I'm hearing you kind of talk about...the client can ask the questions upfront. When searching for a therapist, the client can find someone that they feel comfortable with. Do like a consultation maybe, and ask the questions. What kind of clients do you treat? What is your specialty? I'm not going to go if I have attachment trauma and I'm an adult and I'm struggling with my current relationships. I might not go to somebody who does EMDR, specially only with maybe children. For example, I would want to know that they've worked with adults with PTSD. So, you know, finding out what are you specialize in. What are your advanced trainings? How long have you been doing this? Are you trained or are you certified? Asking those questions, but ultimately, you know, a lot of this lies on the clinician. And their expertise and their ability to, like I said, get a good assessment. Conceptualize the client's case, attunement t is huge because... Alyssa Scolari:  What do you mean by that? Melissa Parks:  I might come in as a client, gung-ho, saying, "I want to do this EMDR stuff." "I love it so much. I'm ready." And yet the next session, another part of them comes out that is terrified. And sort of step in the presence of the room and is terrified. And yet, instead of asserting, "Hey, I'm scared about this," sort of just uses people-pleasing behaviors with the therapist and the therapist is not attuned to these little shifts of maybe a client's presentation or body movements or tone of voice or anything like that, and just runs with it. Again, we're at the risk of retraumatization or creating an unsafe experience. The clinician's level of attunement is so key and being able to, like I said, taking that full history, Oh, you know what? This client has used fawning, for example, which is like extreme people-pleasing in their relationships in the past. I want to note that for myself, I want to make sure that I'm watching for this in our sessions in the future. Because even if I ask a question, "Would you like to talk about this? "They're going to say "Yeah" all the time, because they fawn and so attunement is so huge, huge, huge, and that's on the clinician and their ability to do that. That's not the client's responsibility because a client who fawns is never going to say,"I'm feeling like I want to people-please, you right now." They're never going to say that. Alyssa Scolari:  No, they're just going to do it. That's part of their trauma response, especially when they're activated. Melissa Parks:  That's right? Alyssa Scolari:  So this is a lot in a very heavy process for both the client and the clinician. Melissa Parks:  Yes. It's a dance. Alyssa Scolari:  Do you ever find that it's exhausting for you as the clinician? Melissa Parks:  It could potentially be, but I have good supervision. I think the best clinicians, even the ones that are, you know, have all the certifications in the world get supervision. And so I get supervision and so I have a place to bring my stuff and I have pretty good self care. I also, you know, do things behind the scenes, like structure my day appropriately. I do not have a huge caseload because of not only the nature of the clients that I see, the majority I'm doing EMDR or couples work, couples work is also very intense because you would have two nervous systems in the room with you. Alyssa Scolari: Yes. Melissa Parks:  You're trying to navigate that. So I do not see a ton of people. All of that really, I have learned, sets me up to not feel that burnout or that exhaustion. Alyssa Scolari:  You've learned how to take really good care of yourself. Melissa Parks:  Yeah. But there's days, you know, cause I'm a human Alyssa Scolari: Of course, therapists are human too. Melissa Parks:  Right. Alyssa Scolari: Absolutely. But I love the comment that you said about having supervision, because my supervisor says this all the time, which is every good clinician has a great mentor, therapist, et cetera. Melissa Parks:  Good. Yes. You need to go to therapy too. I'm a believer in that. Alyssa Scolari:  Yes. I love my therapist. Yup. Yep. Now there's also been some myths, I think about EMDR that it's sort of this like, cure all. So could you speak on that? Like, and I guess maybe this is different for every person, but what is the length of the process and then like, how do you know that you've gotten to a point where like EMDR is no longer needed or is it a lifelong process? Melissa Parks:  I wouldn't say lifelong, but I think it's not a magic thing. It's not magic or a cure-all fix-all kind of thing. No, no, no, no, no, definitely not. But I do think that it can be helpful. Like I said almost all of my individuals that I see I'm doing EMDR with because we have to remember EMDR is not just about the Phase Four desensitization piece. Sometimes with some clients I'm just using resource tapping, which is basically strengthening positive things that they bring into session. To strengthen a positive neural network in their brain. So if someone comes in and says, "Oh, I was a good mom this week, I had such good interactions with my kids." I'll say "You want to tap that in? That sounds like it's really important. Like we really want to strengthen that." Alyssa Scolari:  I saw you make a Tik-Tok about that. Melissa Parks:  That's right. That's part of EMDR too. That's resource tapping and that's a component of EMDR too. And so if we're not doing all eight phases, it's still EMDR. And so I look at it from that perspective. In terms of really targeting a trauma or a series of traumas, if it's complex PTSD, it could take a long time. The research says that EMDR is more of a shorter model than say some other like traditional talk therapies, but I'd hate to put a timeline on it. I mean, I've, I've seen people that have single incident traumas and we've done maybe eight sessions, ten sessions, twelve sessions, and they actually feel like this is so helpful. I'm good now. Thank you. Bye. And that's been great, but typically I'm working with people with complex trauma and we're in it for the long haul. Alyssa Scolari:  Okay. I was just going to say, it sounds more to me like EMDR is a treatment approach, like in its entirety and not something that you decide like... Melissa Parks:  Yes, you get it. Alyssa Scolari:  Does that make sense? Melissa Parks:  Yes. That is exactly how I use it. And how I don't look at it as just an intervention. Alyssa Scolari:  Right? Like it's not a supplement therapy. It is a treatment modality. Melissa Parks:  That is exactly how I approach it and how I incorporate it into my practice. And not everybody is like this. I mean, some clinicians are just trained in it and they just use it here or there occasionally, but that's not how I roll. And maybe it's just because I'm in love with it all, but yeah. I really use it as how a lens that I see my clients through because of all the components of it that we talked about in the beginning, based on the model that the past is in the present, the resiliency aspect of it, the bottom up approach. That's how I see my clients through that lens. And this is why this works for me in terms of a modality. So yes, that's right. It's not just an intervention to me. Alyssa Scolari:  Yeah, this is a treatment lens for you. Which I think is potentially why I bet you have so much success because the treatment of trauma really is recovery is a lifelong process, especially when it comes to trauma survivors. So I would imagine that if we're coining anything in some like eight week or twelve week intervention, it's not going to be as effective. Melissa Parks:  Right. Right. Agreed. Alyssa Scolari:  I love it. I learned so much about EMDR. This actually makes me want to, I don't know. This makes me definitely want to explore more. Melissa Parks:  Nice. Alyssa Scolari:  And so I have to ask because your Tik-Toks are amazing. How did you... Melissa Parks:  I get a little...I'm laughing cause I can get my sense of humor can come out there. I can have a little too much fun on there. Alyssa Scolari:  They're so funny. I love them. I show them to my husband. Melissa Parks:  Give me an Office audio, and I will roll with it. I will make it into something. I just love The Office. And if there's any audio on The Office, it's happening, it's going down. Alyssa Scolari:  It's going down. I love it so much. How did you get into, like, how did you decide like, Oh, this is what I'm going to do. Melissa Parks:  well, I've been on Instagram a few years probably, and I just decided to take the leap. Alyssa Scolari: Making those Tik-Toks at the rate that you put them out has got to be a second full-time job for you. I feel like they're hard. Melissa Parks:  Well, they are, I'm pretty, I'm slightly, not slightly. I'm pretty aware of like, not aware, but I can work my phone pretty good. And I'm not doing like major edits, so they don't take me too long. But I think it's just my, I think it's my imagination. I hear something like a sound or, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, this fits so perfectly with this. Or this is how a couple would react or this is what would happen in the brain and how the brain would talk to each other like that. It just comes to me with hearing these sounds. Alyssa Scolari:  Yeah. It's like, it seems looking at your profile and your content, very much of a creative outlet for you. And I would guess a way to also spread awareness. Melissa Parks: That's right. And I cannot tell you how many emails or messages I've received saying "Because of you. I decided to find a therapist" or "Because of you. I feel like I make sense. And I'm going to talk more about what's happening with my therapist" or" just because of you..." and that gives me fire and motivation to just keep going for sure. You know, I'm going to kind of change up how we see ourselves, how we see mental health and that's important. Alyssa Scolari:  and you are doing that and you very much send the message on your content, on all of your platforms. Cause I believe I also follow you on Instagram that it's not what's wrong with you. It's what happened to you. Melissa Parks:  Yes. Alyssa Scolari:  And I love that you put that vibe out there. Melissa Parks:  Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Alyssa Scolari:  So healing. Melissa Parks:  Yeah, thank you. Alyssa Scolari:  So your Tik-Tok is...what's your Tik-Tok username? It's melissa_parks_says, right. Melissa Parks: [00:39:06] No, just melissaparkssays, all one (word) and it's the same for my Instagram: melissaparkssays Alyssa Scolari:  and then you have a website as well, right? Melissa Parks:  Yeah, the website, it is for my therapy practice. That's melissaparkstherapy.com. And yeah, I'll be doing some things in terms of more of that coaching piece, probably more towards summertime, and I'll be opening up some opportunities for EMDR therapists that want to be certified to do some consultation under me if they want to. So that would be important to maybe find me on social media for that. And I'm looking at some potentially courses or some kind of like membership sites so that people can work with me outside of that therapy treatment perspective. And of course, that's only for those that do not need the structure of therapy. That's very important to make sure that we delineate that. Alyssa Scolari: Ooo, you have some exciting things coming up in your future. Melissa Parks:  Yeah. Alyssa Scolari:  I'm excited for you. Oh, that's so fun. Well, I will link all of your socials on the show notes. So to all the listeners out there, you will know exactly where it should go to find more of Melissa's amazing content. Thank you for breaking down the scary beast that is EMDR, because it has really been quite frightening to me, but I feel like I have a really good grasp on it now. And it's not so scary. Melissa Parks:  I'm so glad. I'm so glad. And of course I'd be open to any and all questions for clarifying anything further. I'd be happy to come on again or whatever. It's been such a joy. So thank you for having me.

Addressing your trauma in therapy can be one of the hardest, bravest things you'll ever do. But before you do so, there are important safety measures that need to be put in place in order for therapy to be effective. Trying to process trauma without having safety and security in other areas of your life can lead to re-traumatization and an overall negative treatment experience. Tune into this week's episode to learn about what you may need to make therapy as helpful as possible.   **Every donation to Patreon for the month of March will go to Doctors Without Borders to help support those injured in Ukraine. Alyssa will personally match your donation. See the podcast Patreon and learn more about Doctors Without Borders below!** Patreon Learn more about Doctors Without Borders Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma   Transcript   Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Light After Trauma Podcast. And if you're new here, well just welcome in general. So happy to have you, happy to be here. We've got a little bit of a shorter episode coming at you today. It's been kind of a wild week for me, so please forgive me. I have had so many appointments, just like doctor's appointments after doctor's appointments and it's all good stuff, I'm doing well, things are fine. But it has just been a lot and I've been a little overwhelmed. So I actually originally wanted to talk about something else today, but I've been getting a lot of questions from you all about really the process of starting the trauma work, meaning like working through your trauma, trying to get yourself into recovery from your trauma. And this is a really important thing to talk about. Alyssa Scolari [01:22]: And I had a lot of questions this week in my private practice and through the podcast of just like, how do I even begin to start this? And I think that's a really important question. And I don't think that it's really talked about a whole lot. I think some people think, well, you just sign up for therapy and you go and you start talking about it, but doing that can actually be dangerous. There are certain safety measures that have to be put in place for the trauma therapy to work, the trauma recovery to be effective. So that is what we were talking about today. Alyssa Scolari [02:03]: So just a few housekeeping things before we get into it. Number one, I just want to remind everybody that for the month of March, we are donating to Doctors Without Borders to help the people in Ukraine right now. So you can read more about Doctors Without Borders in the show notes. And what we're doing for this month is if you become a Patreon member, which you can sign up to be a Patreon member, again go right to the show notes, whatever you decide to donate for the month of March is going to go directly to doctors without borders and to take it even one step further, I am going to personally match your donation. Alyssa Scolari [02:46]: So I really think this is a great way to raise some money, to be able to send over and help Ukraine, because I don't know about you all, but I have been feeling so helpless and I am just kind of looking for ways to help. So again, head right to the show notes. We are donating the month of March, whoever signs up on our Patreon, whatever you decide to donate for March is going to go to doctors without borders. And then I am also going to personally match your donation. So thank you ahead of time for that up. Alyssa Scolari [03:19]: And then lastly, I wanted to thank everybody. We've got another review on the podcast. Well, a few other reviews across different platforms. I know there was one that was up on Spotify and there was another one on Apple Podcasts and I'm really excited. These reviews help so much. They help move the podcast up in the rankings. And when your podcast moves up in the rankings, it then becomes more available to people. People are more likely to see it pop up on recommendations for them if they happen to be Googling something or searching for something. And the goal is really to give people the chance to have free access to some type of mental health education and support. So your reviews go such a long way in supporting this podcast even more than the Patreon. Although the Patreon is so helpful too, because this podcast does cost quite a bit of money. There's a lot of funds that go into it. Alyssa Scolari [04:20]: So the Patreon is so helpful as well. And I just appreciate all of the support from all of you. So if you are able to sign up to become a patron, that's fantastic. And if not, no worries. If you're able to leave a review, that is also amazing. And also remember that if you haven't given us a follow on Instagram yet, please go follow us. The Instagram handle is Light After Trauma. And I also should mention that if you do decide to become a Patreon member, you can also request specific episode topics. So if there's something that I haven't talked about yet, that you would really like me to discuss, if you're a Patreon member, you absolutely can message me through Patreon and you can request specific topics. So I think that covers it for the housekeeping things. Alyssa Scolari [05:13]: So without further ado, let's get into it. So as I was saying before, in order to do the trauma work, if you are considering starting therapy, or maybe you have tried to do the trauma work before, and it just hasn't worked out, it has been too painful or too overwhelming for you, or maybe that's not the case. Maybe you're like, no, I can't even think about starting the trauma work and I wouldn't even know where to begin. I think that this is going to be really helpful for you. It was really helpful for me and it continues to be helpful for me as I understand really what I need in my life to be able to process certain events, or memories, or specific traumas. So you need a certain level of safety. And when I say safety, I'm talking about really two main types of things. Alyssa Scolari [06:13]: You need emotional safety, but you also need physical safety. And I'm going to talk a little bit more about each of those. So let's start with physical safety. I learned, and I'm sure anybody who has ever studied any kind of psychology, has learned about something called Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. And one thing at the top of this pyramid, basically what Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is, and don't quote me on this directly because it's been a little bit of time since undergrad. But basically it is this hierarchy of needs, it's this pyramid of things that you need in your life in order to have a sense of safety and in order to reach a sense of happiness and contentment in your life. Alyssa Scolari [07:03]: And one of the first things is physical safety and a sense of security. And I'm talking like you're very, very basic stuff. So like all the way at the bottom of Maslow's pyramid is like, you're psychological needs. We're talking food, we are talking water, we are talking shelter, things like that. We need those things in order to do anything in life. Alyssa Scolari [07:33]: If you are struggling with what you are going to eat, if you don't have enough money to pay for food, if you can't pay your bills, if you have credit card debt, if you are about to be kicked out, if you're about to be evicted from your home, you can't do the trauma work safely when your physical needs aren't being met. And so many people, millions of people around this world can't do the trauma work because that is the type of environment that they are living in. They are living paycheck to paycheck, if that, they are barely able to make ends meet, every single minute is a struggle or a stressor of thinking, what am I going to do next? What are we going to eat tonight? How am I going to feed, I don't know myself, my kids? And it's how am I going to pay for the doctors? Things like that. Alyssa Scolari [08:36]: I can't go to the doctors because I don't have insurance because I can't afford insurance. I can't go get my cavity taken care of. So I am in constant pain all of the time, because I can't afford a dentist. It's really bad in the United States when it comes to healthcare. Really bad. I know like in Germany, Germany and other countries, it's a lot easier to have affordable healthcare. In the United States, it is nearly impossible unless you have a job where you are given good insurance. And even then, it can be expensive depending on your deductibles and things like that. But when people are struggling just to live, just to breathe and feed themselves, when people don't have access to clean water, they can't do the trauma work. When people can't get to a doctor, but are experiencing excruciating pain, they can't do the trauma work. Not because there's anything wrong with them. God, no, that's not it at all, but because it's not safe. Alyssa Scolari [09:57]: And why is it not safe? Well, because trauma work takes so much of you and it requires you to live in your body, to work towards living in your body when the trauma that we've experienced causes us to want to disassociate and leave our bodies. It's really, really hard to just live in a body and to revisit all of our past memories and to try to integrate them with who we are now, when we don't really have a ton of protective factors. It's not like we can say, well, I was really traumatized back then, but right now, I'm safe because you're not. If you're somebody who's struggling and living paycheck to paycheck, that's not a sense of safety and security. Alyssa Scolari [10:55]: So you're already in a state where you are being traumatized by your situation in the present, or what's happening to you is re-traumatizing you from things you dealt with in the past. So if you're already in a state of not feeling safe to then go back and rehash all those memories and to ask you to be present and not dissociate would be a complete override of your system. It would just be so ... It wouldn't be right. It wouldn't be fair for anybody to ask you to do that, but it also just wouldn't be safe for people to do that. Alyssa Scolari [11:36]: I also see this a lot in people who repress their trauma and who don't ... They really don't remember their trauma. They don't remember what happened to them. I am one of those people for those of you who are new and don't really know my story. I am somebody who has repressed my trauma. I did not know anything for years. If you had asked me 10 years ago, if I thought that I had trauma, I would've been like, absolutely not. I don't really even know what that is. Are you out of your mind? And then what happened is I got married and this event happened and it was a horrible event. And I don't think I've talked about it on the podcast. And I will talk about it one day soon. I've just honestly still been processing the fallout from it myself. So I will talk about it soon, but this horrible event happened that started to trigger all of these memories in me. Alyssa Scolari [12:36]: And it wasn't just that event that caused me to remember. It wasn't just that horrible event. But I also had established a sense of safety. Before I had gotten married, I was so, so stressed out. I was in grad school. I was making such little money. I was in a job that was extremely dangerous. I was not well taken care of by my supervisors at all. They did not care. They were asking me to go into people's homes, to deal people who were very dangerous. They were asking me to go in completely alone. I was working all the time and I also was really, really sick physically. I was very sick physically. I had absolutely no space to do the trauma work. Alyssa Scolari [13:32]: And really my whole life, I was so sick with my eating disorder. Plus I also had been around people who were extremely unsafe for me. So I was not going to be able to remember what happened to me. I wasn't going to be able to process my trauma. If you are a child and you are living with a household member who is abusive, it's going to be really hard for you to acknowledge that that person is abusive because you still have to live with them. So it's not like you can go to a therapist and say, "Hey, I think I'm being abused." I mean, listen, you can. There people who do, I certainly have had plenty of children in my office who have said, "I think I'm being abused." Alyssa Scolari [14:23]: But sometimes our brains repress, our brains push things down and don't let us even know or acknowledge that we are being abused because it wouldn't be safe for us. In order to really do the trauma work, it's really important for you to be in an environment in which you are not having to stress about your physical needs, meaning you're not having to worry about somebody abusing you, you're not having to worry about how you're going to get your next meal, or you're not worried about the quality of your water, things like that. Not worried about being kicked out of your home. Those are things that are essential. Alyssa Scolari [15:07]: So here's the other thing that's needed, and that's emotional safety. And that can be kind of tricky because this isn't to say that all of your emotional problems need to go away before you do the trauma work. That would be absolutely ridiculous. But what this really means is that it's very hard to do deep trauma work if you are battling with an addiction that is hindering your ability to function in life. It's very hard to do the trauma work if you are struggling with an eating disorder. If you are malnourished, or if you are binge eating, or purging to the point where it's consuming your life, you're not going to have space to do the trauma work. If you are self-harming, it's going to be really hard to do the trauma work because ... In a sense of safety, but it's more of an emotional sense of safety. Alyssa Scolari [16:09]: It will be really hard to keep yourself safe if you are harming yourself or you are sick with an eating disorder. We can't expect that you're then going to walk into a therapist's office while you're sick with, let's say, an eating disorder and then start talking about your deepest traumatic memories. Or start processing all the emotions that have come up through your childhood trauma. It just wouldn't be safe because so many of our addictions and our self-harm strategies, including eating disorders are designed to sort of keep that trauma suppressed. So what tends to happen if we are trying to work through trauma before getting any kind of grip on self-harm, suicidality, eating disorders, addiction is that we talk about our trauma and then that causes our self-harm or our eating disorders to increase. And we tend to turn to these things even more because don't have the proper tools that we need to learn what to do with the feelings that come up when we're doing the trauma work. Alyssa Scolari [17:21]: So again, it's not realistic to expect that if you're struggling with an eating disorder, or if you struggle with self-harm, it's not realistic to expect that you are never going to have urges to self-harm. No, there were plenty of times that I had urges to self-harm and times where I even did self-harm throughout my trauma recovery. But I do know that there was a time in my therapy process where I was pushed very inappropriately so to dive into memories that I should not have been diving into because A, you really don't need to rehash the details of your trauma in order to heal. And that's a topic for another episode. But B, I was not safe enough. I was self-harming a lot. And I was essentially persuaded or coerced into going through the intimate details of many of my traumatic memories during this time. And it landed me in the hospital ultimately. Alyssa Scolari [18:44]: It was horrible and I became worse and worse and worse. And I realize now how damaging that was for me, because I didn't have the tools to be able to take good care of myself. What I needed was help on the self-harm first. And once I got help with that, and once I stopped doing that, I was able to then go back and work through a lot of my old trauma in a much safer setting. Again, that is not to say that the urges to self-harm didn't come up. Same thing with my eating disorder. I really needed to take care of my eating disorder, which I did. I, first was in treatment for an eating disorder before I knew anything about trauma. So I was taking care of that and I continued to take care of that even once I knew I had trauma. Alyssa Scolari [19:43]: That way, while I was working through the trauma, I didn't dive right back into my eating disorder to the point where I got so sick that it nearly killed me. Of course there were times where I would have a really rough day at therapy and I would binge, and it was a learning experience. But it wasn't something that was happening all the time. And my symptoms continued to improve instead of worsen. Let's say that you get your eating disorder under control or the self-harm under control, and you start the trauma therapy process. And then all of a sudden, you find yourself right back into your eating disorder in the same severity as before, or maybe even worse. That might be a sign that you might not be ready to address this part of your recovery, or maybe this specific memory, or maybe you just need a little bit more work in terms of your eating disorder. Alyssa Scolari [20:46]: I can't say for sure, obviously. I'm not you. But I am just trying to give examples of the different ways in which safety, both physical and emotional, can be really important in this role. I make sure to ask all of my clients about their safety habits. I make sure before we do any kind of trauma processing that I know that they have a sense of safety, both physical and emotional. I would never, in a million years ask somebody who has come to me, who has been self-harming to relive traumatic memories. It would be a horrible thing to do, and it was done to me, and it is a horrible, horrible feeling. Alyssa Scolari [21:38]: So I hope that this is helpful because a lot of you really have asked me a lot about this. And I also just want to say that when it comes to treatment, one size doesn't fit all. Some people can do both. Some people certainly can. I think it's rarer, but I'm a never say never kind of woman. So I do think that perhaps it can be done, but I also think that I have talked with so many people who have tried to do the trauma work, but then have said things like it was just too bad and I almost lost my life. And I tried to commit suicide or complete suicide, I should say. Just as a little FYI and the reason I'm not taking this out in editing is because I think that language is really important when we talk about suicide. And when we use the word commit, it makes it sound like people did something horrible, like they committed a crime. But when we say complete suicide, I think it takes a lot of the stigma away from it. So that's why I corrected myself there. Alyssa Scolari [22:47]: So anyway, I've had people say, "I tried to complete suicide when I started to go through the trauma work." And I think one of the first questions that I always ask people when they tell me that is like, well, tell me about your environment. Tell me about your sense of safety. Are you doing okay? Are you well fed? Are you well nourished? Are you living in a safe home? Do you have good shelter? Do you have people in your life who you can talk to? Who can support you? Who are safe people that you can trust? Do you have some sort of financial stability? Are you struggling with an eating disorder, with self-harm, with addiction? Because these are all things that need to be worked on in order for the safety to be there in trauma work. Alyssa Scolari [23:40]: And sometimes this is why people go up to inpatient. People feel like they can't keep themselves safe and they go up to inpatient and they help get themselves stabilized. And then they come back out to outpatient and then they do the trauma work. Again, not a one size fits all, but I do think it's really important to know that there are huge steps to try to take before you do the trauma work, and it can potentially be unsafe to just dive right in. With that being said, I want you all to dive in. This is what we do here. These are the things we talk about. So take those steps, do what you have to do. Not to say that everything is in your control. Financial stability is really hard to come by in this country right now. And the prices just keep rising and rising and rising. And my heart is shattered for all of us. Alyssa Scolari [24:41]: So it is not the easiest thing to do and it is not always in our control. And I do want to acknowledge that. But these ultimately are the important things to be able to start doing some sort of trauma work. And at the end of the day, if you're hearing this and you're feeling like something resonates with you and you're like, oh, maybe I'm not quite ready. If you have a therapist, please talk to your therapist about it because your therapist is going to know way better than I do. I'm not your therapist. I'm a therapist. I've got a good bit of knowledge on this subject, but ultimately nobody knows you better than you. And if you have a great therapist and you've been with your therapist for a while, there's a good chance that you're a therapist is going to know too. Alyssa Scolari [25:29]: So don't be afraid to start asking questions about this kind of stuff and make sure that you're keeping it in the back of your mind, because this work is really hard. It's some of the hardest work that you'll ever do. It's, of course, the most rewarding work that you'll ever do, but safety is so important. So with that being said, I hope that this has helped you today. I like this. I think it's a really interesting topic to talk about. And I know a lot of you have been asking about it. So I hope that this is helpful and I wish everybody a fantastic week. I am over here on the East Coast in the United States. And we got slammed with snow today, which was a little ridiculous in my opinion. But hey, it is what it is. So I hope that you all are enjoying warmer weather than what I'm having. And I am holding you all in the light. Talk to you next week. Alyssa Scolari [26:28]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are at lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is at lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support. [singing]

Childhood trauma comes in a variety of different forms – no two trauma survivors have identical histories. However, what all trauma survivors have in common are experiences with the five core wounds that have led to depression, anxiety, PTSD, and other mental health disorders. In this episode Alyssa talks about the last two (2) core wounds and how they manifest in adulthood (to hear about the first three (3) core wounds, please listen to episode 84). Alyssa also discusses how we can begin to heal from our core wounds.  **Every donation to Patreon for the month of March will go to Doctors Without Borders to help support those injured in Ukraine. Alyssa will personally match your donation. See the podcast Patreon and learn more about Doctors Without Borders below!** Patreon Learn more about Doctors Without Borders   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma   Transcript   Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. And welcome back to part two of the two part series that we are doing on the five core wounds. This episode was a huge hit. I loved it, and you all loved it too. We actually broke our record on the podcast, which is really exciting. So thank you so much. I'm really happy to be doing part two. I hope everybody's having a good week. I'm having an okay week. I think personally, I'm doing well, but I don't know. I feel very, very heavy this week emotionally. I think everything that's going on in Ukraine is just really weighing on my soul. And I've been feeling pretty isolated as a therapist. There's been so much going on and I people that are being so affected by it, my clients included, and it just feels it's just very upsetting. Alyssa Scolari [01:31]: I don't know what's in the air, but there's been lots of crises and just really difficult moments and just bouts of injustice after are injustice, and it's hard to wrap my brain around. So I'm feeling rather heavy this week, and I'm just trying to work through those feelings. And I think the other issue that's been coming up for me a lot is feeling helpless. I feel very effective as a therapist for the most part. I have my moments, of course, but I'm feeling pretty helpless when it comes to everything that's happening in Ukraine. And I don't know what to do. So I've been really trying to rack my brain on what I can do to help, if anything, because it's very, very hard for me to sit here while other people are being so traumatized and just not do anything about it. So I actually think, what I'm going to do for the month of March is, if you become a patron on the Light After Trauma Patreon, whatever donation you make for the month of March is going to go directly to the efforts to help Ukraine. Alyssa Scolari [02:52]: And specifically, I am going to donate, or we are going to donate, to Doctors Without Borders. And Doctors Without Borders is this organization that works in conflict zones and they are partnering with Ukraine. They're helping people travel to healthcare facilities. They are making sure that people have access to healthcare and medicine. So whatever you donate, the LinkedIn of the Patreon is in the show notes, so just go right into the show notes. And I'm also going to include the link for the Doctors Without Borders so you can check it out a little bit more if you want. But, go onto the Patreon, and whatever you are able to donate would be great. And whatever you donate, I personally am going to match. So if you donate $5, I'm going to donate $5. If you donate 50 cents, I'm going to donate 50 cents. So I feel like this is a really great way for us to just join in together as a family and help when we are otherwise feeling pretty helpless. Alyssa Scolari [03:55]: Now with that being said, if you are not able to give, that is totally fine. But if you are, hey, go right ahead. I feel like that would be a great way to contribute, a great way for us to help. And I will, of course, after the month of March announce how much we have donated to Doctors Without Borders. So again, head over to the link in the show notes, and you will find everything that you need there. And with that being said, let's launch into part two today, which I'm pretty excited for. So if you haven't listened to last week's episode, you might want to go back and do that, because in that episode, we talk about the first three of the five core wounds, but we also talk about what the five core wounds are. Alyssa Scolari [04:46]: As a little recap, basically what the five core wounds are, childhood injuries, injuries to our soul, injuries to our brain. Every trauma survivor has a uniquely different story. No two trauma survivors have the same story, but all of our stories fall within the realm of these five core wounds. And last week, we talked about the first three being abandonment and rejection and betrayal. And we talked about what they are, how they can come about in childhood, and then what they manifest into in adulthood. This week, we are talking about the final two, which are humiliation and injustice. Now, we will start with humiliation. Now, humiliation, this can be felt as early as one to three years of age. And humiliation is [inaudible 00:05:50] exactly as it sounds, right? It is something that causes us to feel like we are bad. It's that feeling of wanting to crawl under a rock and die. It's belittling. And it comes out in a variety of different ways. Alyssa Scolari [06:04]: There are different types of humiliation. There's, I guess you could say indirect and direct humiliation. Maybe the phrase is... And I'm making this up. This isn't coming from anywhere, but I feel like it might be more accurate to say there's aggressive forms of humiliation, and then more passive aggressive forms of humiliation. So let me give you some examples, right? So children who are humiliated are basically being told that they are bad if they do a certain thing, look a certain way, right? So if you get a C on your test at school and your parent says, "I didn't raise no dumbass," or "What are you? A moron. You got to C on a test in the third grade?" That is humiliation. You are calling your child a horrible thing, and then your child is then internalizing that and feeling as though there is something wrong with them. "I am stupid. I am a dumbass. I am a moron." Now, school is just one of the many ways that humiliation can take shape, right? Alyssa Scolari [07:30]: A lot of humiliation also comes with potty training. If you wet the bed, if you miss the toilet, if you don't do something right when it comes to your potty training, sometimes parents or caregivers or adults may scream, may scream at you, may call you names, and this can be very humiliating. It's not so much the screaming that does it, although of course the screaming can be very traumatizing too, but that kind of borders more on rejection, I would say, but it's typically what that parent is saying and their body language. They are so angry at you. They feel some kind of way about you, almost like they feel you are a failure and that you will never get this right. Lots of children tend to experience some of their first bouts of humiliation during the potty training process. And when I say lots of children, I probably should re-say that, because potty training is, some children, they never get humiliated. Most children don't, I would think, but there are quite a few children out there who have been humiliated through potty training. Alyssa Scolari [08:56]: So with humiliation rates, sometimes it can just be very aggressive and very direct. "You're a dumbass. You're stupid. Why are you even bothering playing basketball? You sucked the whole time." Humiliation can also look like the dad on the court. You're five years old and you're in your first basketball game or t-ball game or whatever, and your mom, dad, whoever is on the sideline screaming at you, because you're not fast enough, you're not strong enough, other people are better than you. And this happens. I'm sure so many of you can relate to this. Humiliation, for me, did not happen when it comes to playing sports, because honestly, I never stood a chance in sports, but it does happen, and it is very, very devastating. Alyssa Scolari [09:45]: And then there's more passive aggressive humiliation. And sometimes that comes in the form of people who think they're trying to help you or people who are teasing you. So let me give you a few examples. I'm going to give you some personal examples. People used a lot of passive aggressive humiliation with me with my weight, right? Nobody in my family ever screamed at me for being overweight or outright told me that I was fat and lazy and this, that, and all the other negative connotations that this fatphobic world has against children or adults who are overweight. But I was a pretty chunky child. I had a lot of meat on my bones. I look at pictures of me now and I'm like, "Oh my God, I was adorable. I can't believe people called me fat as a kid." Alyssa Scolari [10:48]: I was freaking so cute. I can't even stand it, but I digress. But basically, I have distinct memories of parties, family parties. A family member, and I'm going to try hard not to out anybody here, but a family member who is no longer... She's no longer alive. When I would go to reach for food at the table, she would take my hand and kind of pull my hand away from the food, not aggressively by any means. It was kind of in a loving manner. And she would go, "Oh, don't be a little świnia. Now, for those of you who are not Polish and don't know what świnia means, it means pig. So I was a little girl going to get some food and I would be told, "Oh, don't be a little piggy." And the way it was said was almost like it came off in an endearing term, right? Alyssa Scolari [11:45]: It's like, "Oh, I love you and I care about you, and I don't want you to be a little świnia," but the impact was... I was freaking humiliated, because it was said in front of everybody else who was at the table, and it was horrifying. As another example, I remember this was maybe 10 years ago. I was at a bridal shower, and I was in the throws. Was it? It was maybe a little... Eh, it was about 10 years ago, maybe a little less. I was in the throws of my anorexia. I was a very, very low weight, a weight that I think for the people in my family thought was great. People were praising me all the time, but I was probably the sickest I've ever been in my life. And there was a bridal shower that I was at. And I was there, I was wearing this dress, everybody was complimenting me, telling me that I looked so beautiful, that they were so proud of me because I had lost all this weight. Oh, it makes my blood boil just thinking about it. Alyssa Scolari [12:55]: But basically what happened is, the dessert came out and I got up to go get a piece of cake. Now, I walked all the way across this room that we were in, and this room was massive, and I grabbed a plate with a piece of cake on it. And as I went to grab the cake, I heard this person from across the room, a family member, yell at me and she went, "You better drop that cake on the table because you don't want to gain back all that weight you lost." And everybody heard, and I was mortified. Again. I was a little bit older, but it opened up that already core wound that I had of humiliation. And she thought she was helping me. She didn't mean it in a mean way. She wasn't being aggressive. I mean, she was screaming, because hey, we're Italian, and that's what we do, we scream. But she thought that she was doing a great thing. She was like, "You got to keep that weight off. You're doing so great." Humiliated. I cannot even begin to tell you. I will never ever forget it. It was horrifying. Alyssa Scolari [14:12]: But also as a kid, I got made fun of not just for my weight, and made fun of/humiliated not just for my weight, but for the way I looked in other ways. Even something that might be as seemingly innocent as... I looked very different from the rest of my family. I'm very fair skinned, whereas a lot of the family members that I grew up with are really, really dark skin, dark hair. I'm really, really fair. So I used to be told all the time that the milk man dropped me off. And I was little. And my older cousins and stuff, they would say this to me, and I would sob and be so embarrassed and humiliated because they would then go on to be like, "Oh yeah, you don't really belong with this family. You weren't wanted, so just the milkman dropped you off." And I was little. I believed that, and it was horrible for me. Alyssa Scolari [15:10]: And then also, because I was so fair, again, I was with a bunch of family members who had very, very dark complexions, and then there's me over here. And they would say, even just at the dinner table, somebody would look over at me and be like, "Hey, where are your eyebrows? I can't even see your eyebrows. Do you even have them? Do you think they'll even grow in? Do you think you'll get them?" It was kind of in just a light teasing sort of way, but why? Why? Because to this day, I am extremely self conscious about my eyebrows. And when I look in the mirror, I wonder if anybody else can even see my eyebrows. It has become such a part of my body dysmorphia. Alyssa Scolari [16:01]: Now, of course, if my family, the people who said these things to me were to listen to this, they'd be like, "Oh my God, you're so sensitive. You're making such a big deal out of it." And that would be gaslighting, right? Because that's the thing, people who use humiliation as a form of relating or communication, especially adults to children, they're always like, "Oh, it was just a joke. What a sensitive kid. She can't take a joke. He can't take a joke. They can't take a joke." But that's not at all the case, right? If you have some of these similar experiences, this is humiliation, right? This is a core wound, and it is devastating. I have so much experience with this. I could honestly go all hunt all day. I will spare you, but parents and adults foster just this horrible fear in children that they are forever going to be criticized and that they will forever have disapproval and that they aren't good enough. Alyssa Scolari [17:10]: And when we become adults and we have this core wound of humiliation, it can go really one of two ways. Some people who have a core wound of humiliation end up being narcissists. They end up having a lot of narcissistic traits, and they can also be people who then go on to humiliate others. On the other hand, you can have people who become extremely dependent when they get older, people who feel like they constantly need the approval of others. This is something that I struggle with. Even in my profession, it took me a long time to be able to make decisions in my job and not feel like I immediately needed to call my supervisor right away and ask if I did the right thing. I was sort of dependent on the opinions of others and the approval of others to be able to function. I don't do that anymore, but I had to work so hard on knowing that I am okay as I am and that I don't need the approval of others. Alyssa Scolari [18:29]: If I would go out and I didn't have at least one person tell me that I was cute or looked great, I would feel humiliated. I would come home and I would dive right back into my eating disorder and feel like, "Oh my gosh, everybody hated me. They must have thought I looked ugly, X, Y, Z." Again, I had a ton of internalized fatphobia back then. I was extremely unwell. I'm being honest about how I was. I've worked on these things, so I don't do that anymore, but that is another way in which humiliation can show up in adulthood. So that is a heavy one, so take a deep breath if you need it, as we transition into this last one. Alyssa Scolari [19:16]: Now this last one is the fear of injustice. And this one is probably one of the lesser talked about of the five core wounds. This one isn't quite a self explanatory as the others, and it's a little deceiving based off of the name. But basically, injustice is when during your childhood, you had excessive demands that were pushed onto you by your caregiver, parent, guardian, whoever. So for example, let's say that you're the oldest and you have two younger siblings. And you're eight years old, seven years old, and you are being forced by your caregiver, your parent to take care of your younger siblings, right? Mom, dad, whoever goes to work all day and you're left at home, at eight years old, to change diapers, feed, play with your siblings, take care of them when you're truly just a child yourself, right? Alyssa Scolari [20:21]: And your parents aren't necessarily really understanding, and they're just like, "You got to do this. This is part of what being the older sibling is." It's excessive amounts of responsibility, too much responsibility with very little compassion and awareness and acknowledgement from the parent, meaning your parents or caregivers are very authoritarian and ice colds. They are very much not about your feelings. They don't really care about you getting your emotional needs met. They put a lot of pressure on you, even to meet your own physical needs and the physical needs of your siblings or whoever else is in the home, or maybe you grew up in a house where your dad was an alcoholic and he was unable to function or provide for the family and your mom made you go to work early, go to work illegally, right? When early, I mean, go to work when you're young, right? Alyssa Scolari [21:25]: Go to work, make money, support the family. Maybe you were also mom's emotional spouse, where instead of confiding in your father about her emotions, she would then turn to you because your father isn't available. Things like that create this core wound of injustice, and it causes a lot of mistrust in the world around you. It also causes this hyper-dependency, but also at the same time, core feelings of ineffectiveness and uselessness. Honestly, because when you are having such excessive demands as a child, you begin to feel like you're never good enough, because truthfully, you are not developed enough to even try to meet the demands of your caregivers. I hope that is making sense. For example, if you're in the fourth grade and you're eight years old, how are you supposed to be expected to take care of yourself, show up at school, be fully rested, and then also come home and take care of your two younger siblings, right? Alyssa Scolari [22:38]: So then let's say you go to school and you're falling asleep at school all the time and your teacher sends home a note to your parent that you're falling asleep in school and your parents screams at you and tells you that you need to get it together and that you shouldn't be falling asleep in school instead of taking a moment to reflect, "Well, why is my child falling asleep in school? What do I think I could do as a parent to support my child?" The blame is pushed onto you, and you alone as the kid. It would be completely possible to expect that you would have all these demands on you at home, and then be able to function in school, but your parent doesn't see that. Your parent expects that out of you anyway. So then all your life, you are expecting the impossible from yourself. And because nobody's perfect, we can never live up to that expectation. Therefore, as much as we need independence and perfectionism, we still feel at our core that we will never be good enough and that everything we do isn't effective and that we ultimately are useless. Alyssa Scolari [23:47]: So, that was a lot. I hope that is making sense, but basically, as you become an adult, those feelings sort of stay the same. Adults tend to just be really, really dependent. They are extremely rigid, and they are extreme perfectionistic. They have a lot of difficulty making decisions for fear of making the wrong one because they believe they're ineffective and ultimately will make the wrong one. They have a huge mistrust of other people because they have been taking care of everything their whole lives, but they also really don't trust themselves. It's a really, really scary and difficult place to be in as an adult. And as you can imagine, it makes getting into relationships, even friendships, even if we're not talking about romantic relationships, it makes all interactions that aren't superficial very, very difficult. Alyssa Scolari [24:51]: So those are the five core wounds. And one of the natural next questions would be, okay, so we know about these core wounds. We've gotten justice, we've got betrayal, we've got humiliation, rejection, and abandonment. Well, what do we do about that? What do we do? Unfortunately, that's really not a question that I can answer, that's very black and white, right? Because everybody heals from their core wounds in different ways. But I will say this, I think that understanding and acknowledging is the first half of the battle. And that's part of why we're doing this episode, because I don't think a lot of people are even aware that core wounds exist. And if we don't know it, we can't heal it. If we can't feel it, we can't fix it. Oy, I sound like such a cheesy therapist now. Geez, somebody make me stop, but I'm serious, right? In all seriousness, we really need to be aware, and awareness is really the first step in healing. Alyssa Scolari [26:04]: And I don't know what healing might look like. For me, healing has looked like not so much therapy, I guess. And I'm in therapy, right? That's no secret. I love therapy, but there's only so much that I think that can be done with talking about these core wounds. I'm very aware of what my core wounds are and I could talk about it in therapy, but I've sort of been in a place over the last couple of years... Well, ever since I started working with the therapist I have now, I've been in a place where I'm ready to really start to try to heal those wounds. Now, I feel like those wounds will always be sore spots. I'm always going to have some sensitive or tender scar tissue around those wounds, but that doesn't mean that they're going to drive my actions for the rest of my life. Alyssa Scolari [27:03]: And one way, for me, that I have been able to stop these core wounds from controlling my life is by putting myself out there and forcing myself to do the opposite of what comes naturally to me. That's part of the reason why this podcast even exists, because I am so good at being a therapist that sometimes I forget how to be a client. And I'm not saying that I'm being a client by doing this podcast, but I am very vulnerable here, and vulnerability does not come easy for me. And I am putting my trauma and my pain out there into the world. And it's, whoo, it gives me chills as I even say it, because every once in a while I'll have this voice in my head be like, "Alyssa, what the fuck are you doing? Why are you sharing this?" Right? But I'm sharing this because it's not in my nature, because my core wounds tell me that I'm not allowed to speak, because I came from family members who always said, "Don't air your dirty laundry." But my laundry isn't dirty. I'm not dirty. My issues aren't dirty. Alyssa Scolari [28:33]: Everybody struggles, everybody. So this is me pushing myself past my limits, past what I've been taught, past what I know, and trying to myself that it is okay, it is okay to speak, and that, airing your dirty laundry is just another way to add shame to mental health issues and adds to the stigma. And again, I don't blame anybody for telling me that. I don't think the people who told me that knew any better, but I know better now, so I can do better. So, so much of what has helped my healing is to just push myself and talk about it in therapy, but then I try to live it in my life. This fear of abandonment that I have, that core wound is huge for me. Alyssa Scolari [29:27]: It shows up in every way, shape, or form in my life. It shows up in ways that I still have difficulty talking about, but I still put myself out there. I still do my best to make friends. I do my best to communicate if these triggers are coming up for me. And I also do my best to try to sit with those feelings and label them for what they are, because I believe, I believe, I believe, I believe that when you label something for what it is and you see something for what it truly is, it takes the power away. Right? If I'm able to say what I'm feeling right now is a fear of abandonment because my friend has not texted me back in seven days, and I think that she hates me and that she's going to leave me probably because of something stupid I said in my last text. Right? If I'm able to look at that thought pattern and I can say, "Ooh, this is my abandonment stuff, and this is definitely coming from my core wound," suddenly things feel a lot more manageable, a lot more manageable. Alyssa Scolari [30:49]: So those are some things that I do to help. I just keep on putting myself out there and making myself vulnerable. It's scary. It's terrifying. It's horrifying. I've got a lot of work to do still, but hey, don't we all. Don't we all. And of course, therapy. I don't want to minimize therapy. Therapy helps so much, and it has helped me so much too. I just, I think in a place right now where I'm ready to put what I've learned in therapy and what I'm talking about in therapy into action in the real world. And if you're not there yet, that's fine. One of the first things you can do is really start identifying which of these core wounds do you have, if any of them. Maybe you have all of them. What do you relate to? What stings the most for you? Alyssa Scolari [31:41]: And I feel like writing about that, journaling can also be really, really helpful. So I hope that this episode was another helpful one for you. I've really loved talking about these core wounds. If you are enjoying what you are hearing, please leave a rating or review for the podcast. It means so much and helps the podcast grow. And again, in order to help with the efforts in Ukraine, anybody who becomes a Patreon member for the month of March and makes a donation, I will match that donation. And all of those proceeds will go to Doctors Without Borders. They are helping with medical aid in Ukraine. So my Patreon link is in the show notes, and the Doctors Without Borders link is in the show notes. And if you are a Patreon member, or if you become a Patreon member, you also are able to request specific episode topics. Alyssa Scolari [32:42]: So if there is a topic that you want me to speak about that I have not spoken about yet, or one that you want me to do again, but a little differently, if you are a Paton member, you can request that. So I hope that everybody has a great week. I am sending so much love to you all. I am holding you in the light. And I will see you next week. Alyssa Scolari [33:05]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma, and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again. That's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you, and we appreciate your support.

Childhood trauma comes in a variety of different forms – no two trauma survivors have identical histories. What we do have in common, however, are experiences with the five core wounds that have led to depression, anxiety, PTSD, and other mental health disorders. In this episode Alyssa talks about the first three (3) core wounds and how they manifest in adulthood.     Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma   Transcript   Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hi, beautiful people, welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma Podcast. As you know, I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari and we are talking about the five core wounds today. Now, before we dive in, I just want to take a minute to thank everybody for all of the feedback from my last episode, where I talked about how I've been healing post operation from my endometriosis surgery, and what that has brought up for me trauma wise, thank you for all of the love and the support, I really appreciate it. I continue to feel better every day. This week has been a little bit of a rough one. My husband's step grandmother passed away and it's just been really, really sad. And his grandfather who we love dearly has been really devastated. So they live about like three hours away from us. So we really just dropped everything and went up there when we found out that she was getting ready to pass and the services happened and the funeral services, and it's been a lot. Alyssa Scolari [01:39]: His wife was, she was sick and we kind of were expecting this, but it really just doesn't make it easier. Death is just so, so hard. So there's been just a lot of grief and a lot of heavy feelings, but hey, overall, honestly, I cannot complain in terms of my recovery. I am just doing my best and I really just wanted to say thank you so much for all of the support. Alyssa Scolari [02:10]: So today I thought that I would talk about something that I find really fascinating, which is this idea of the five core wounds. And what does that mean? So I'm not sure if you've heard of it or not. Truthfully, I was aware of all these wounds, but I've never really had them like packaged together as like the five core wounds until very recently in the research that I was doing. And I was like, oh man, I really need to talk about this on the podcast. So this is going to be a two part episode because while it's just five wounds, there's kind of a lot to them. And I feel like it's really heavy and I, of course, want everybody to learn, but it's just a lot of information to take in. So I'm going to be splitting it up. I'm going to do the first three today and then next week I will do the last two and then we'll talk about ways to heal from those core wounds. Alyssa Scolari [03:18]: So I guess the first question is what is a core wound? And that is basically a, it's damage that's been done, right? Mental health damage, so to speak, reparable damage, of course, but damage, nonetheless, that has been done in childhood. These are things that happen in childhood that ultimately can lead to a diagnosis or the development of complex PTSD. And we've talked about CPTSD a lot, and how it is really stems from things that have happened in childhood. And those things happen to be the five core wounds, right? Alyssa Scolari [04:09]: So things can happen, all different types of events, right? Maybe you experience a wound from sexual abuse while somebody else experiences a wound from a traumatic death in the family, right? So we can experience these wounds in all different ways, but at the end of the day, it is these basic five wounds that can contribute to depression, anxiety, PTSD, and things like that that can harm your relationships with yourself and others and just get in the way of you living your best life. Alyssa Scolari [04:46]: So really what I see talked about the most is abandonment. Abandonment is number one. And I'm sure at this point, you hear that and you're probably like, "Ugh, I'm so over the word abandonment, it's like been there, done that, heard about it." And I get that. I think that abandonment is just really, I wouldn't say overused, I would say misused, because I think that a lot of people label things as abandonment when it might not be abandonment, it might be one of the other core wounds. But abandonment is the one that everybody knows the most. Alyssa Scolari [05:27]: Now with that being said, if abandonment is what feels true to you personally, then of course, that's your truth and who am I to say otherwise? But I just think in general, I've definitely seen it get misused. Like there's another kind of wound that fits better. And I just think abandonment is what we default to. So I also should point out that these core wounds, we can experience all of them. To be perfectly honest, I was going through this list and I've been doing a lot of research on these core wounds to prepare for this episode. And I was like, oh crap, I am pretty sure I've experienced all of these. Alyssa Scolari [06:18]: And this episode again, I really want to point out, isn't a place to blame on anybody in my life. I never... Listen, there are some people in my life who I absolutely will put blame on. Absolutely. I have certain people who I will not speak to anymore and that is my boundary and I hold them accountable for the things that they do. But I know that I share a lot of myself on here and sometimes I worry that I come across as like maybe blaming other people. I don't know. I have really been thinking about this a lot lately. And so I know in my last couple episodes, I've really been intentional about saying that this isn't a blame game, right. Because I know not just myself, I have family members out there that have been good to me and have really done right by me and if we haven't always met eye to eye in the past or seen eye to eye in the past, we've come a long way and we're good now. Alyssa Scolari [07:22]: So I never want to seem like I'm slandering anybody, but I also never wanted to seem like I'm faulting you as the listeners, because I know that you are parents, you are trauma survivors, you are caretaker. So I never wanted to see him like I'm blaming, right? This is educational. And I just wanted to put that out there. Alyssa Scolari [07:48]: So abandonment is exactly as it seems, right. It is the fear that people are going to leave. Well, it's not so much the fear that people are going to leave, it is the act of people leaving you. Now, this is a little bit more complex than it seems, right? Because it's not just, oh, my mom and dad got into the car one day and left and I was upset. They abandoned me and now I have this core wound. I wish it was as simple as that, but it is not. Alyssa Scolari [08:21]: Abandonment comes in many forms. It can look like a parent and keep in mind, I'm saying parent right now, but I also mean like primary caretakers as well. So it could be that a parent or a caretaker wasn't there time after time to help you when you needed emotional help. It could be that nobody was there to teach you how to do certain things, meet certain milestones in your life, right? Ride your bike, learn how to use a knife a fork, and a spoon when you're eating at the table. Helping you potty train. Alyssa Scolari [09:02]: Abandonment is about people showing up for you to help you get your needs met in terms of like the milestones, right? When we look at developmental psychology, kids have milestones that they meet. They are potty trained and they learn how to use utensils and they learn how to talk. And then they learn how to communicate. And then they learn how to pick up on body language. It's like kids meet these milestones but what helps kids to meet these milestones is the adults in their lives who are helping them, who are pointing them in that direction. And it is really harmful when we as kids are having to do it alone and figure these things out for ourselves, when we look at adoption trauma. Alyssa Scolari [09:57]: And this is not something I've touched on, but I do work with many kids and adults who are adopted. And if we're talking about adoption trauma, a lot of times kids will come from orphanages, where in the first year or two of their lives, they weren't held, they weren't coddled, they weren't nurtured. And then they grow up with this chronic and constant fear that nobody in their lives is ever going to stay. That nobody's ever going to love them enough to stay and not leave. Alyssa Scolari [10:36]: So it's not necessarily like a one off incident, right? Like I mentioned the whole bike riding thing. If your mom or dad or caretaker aren't around to help you learn how to ride your bike and you had to teach yourself, that necessarily isn't going to trigger a core wound, right? That's not really going to create the wound. What kind of creates this wound of abandonment is when it becomes a pattern, when it becomes habitual, right? That it's like, I was never held when I was little. Alyssa Scolari [11:12]: And we know that babies will die at times when they are not given the nurturing that they need. We know how important that is, but it's a pattern of behavior, right? I wasn't held when I was little, I wasn't nurtured. And then it took me... Nobody ever helped potty train me and nobody ever helped teach me how to feed myself, how to use kitchen utensils. Nobody ever helped teach me how to do homework. I never learned how to clean. I had to figure all these things out for myself. That can be where the abandonment comes up sometimes because there are other examples of abandonment too. Alyssa Scolari [11:55]: For example, abandonment can also look like a parent just walking out of your life. There are so many people out there who had a parent who just up and left or a parent who was never involved. That is abandonment because you know what, if you're a parent and you get up and you walk away and you walk out of your kid's life, well guess what? You're not going to be there to help them through any of those milestones that they needed you for. So that is abandonment in itself. Alyssa Scolari [12:28]: Abandonment also can look like somebody passing away and it can get a little more complex there because I think that a lot of people think like, but it's not abandonment, that person died. And a lot of people actually have a lot of guilt and shame about feeling abandoned when a loved one passes away. So it's not talked about as much, but honestly, underneath those surfaces, part of grief is also like working through those feelings of abandonment. If a parent has died, doesn't matter if they were there to teach you all through many of your milestones, but if you're a child and a parent dies, you could absolutely be wounded in an abandonment sense. There are other examples of abandonment. Of course, I could go on all day, but I think you get the general idea. Alyssa Scolari [13:29]: Now, people who have been abandoned in some way, shape or form, really develop this intense fear of loneliness. They hate being alone. But the kicker is loneliness is something that they're used to. That's what they're familiar with. So they are terrified of being left, but in the same sense, they also can push people away and can take action subconsciously to cause somebody to end up leaving, which then makes them feel abandoned again, thus reliving the cycle, repeating the cycle and reliving the abandonment in childhood. So it's very, very difficult but the core fear here is loneliness. And that fear has developed because as a child, you were used to doing everything by yourself anyway, you had to figure it out alone anyway. Alyssa Scolari [14:32]: So as an adult, when people come into your life, you are terrified that they are going to leave, or sometimes, you might want them to leave so that you don't have to even deal with the fear, right? What does this look like in adulthood? So this can look like the person who's been fiercely independent, who never dates, never gets into relationships. And it's just like, I don't need anybody. I don't want anybody, not always, some people are very happy on their own and that's completely fine. But sometimes that can look like a person who has a chronic fear of abandonment. Alyssa Scolari [15:11]: In adulthood, abandonment can also look like somebody who has a really insecure attachment. So maybe they get into a relationship or they develop a friendship, but they're always like, "Are you going to leave me? Are you going to leave me?" Or they're always like very, very anxious, right? Like, "What are you thinking? Are you mad at me? Are you going to do something? Are we breaking up? Do you still want to be my friend? Do you think I'm a good person?" They are seeking constant validation and reassurance. And even if you, as the partner on the other end, give them that validation and reassurance, it still likely isn't going to be enough. Alyssa Scolari [15:51]: So abandonment really affects relationships with other people. Most often romantic relationships, but also friendships too. Abandonment is a huge core wound. And I absolutely feel this one. It's funny because I actually, I am really, I've been debating whether or not I want to share the ways in which my core wound of abandonment has shown up. And I don't really think I feel quite ready to do that right now, but suffice it to say that I definitely feel this. And it has shown up in my adulthood pretty much exactly the way that I just described. I struggled so much and still do with an insecure attachment. I'm so much better now because I've had so much therapy and I've worked on it so much, but I just had this fear of people leaving me. Alyssa Scolari [17:05]: I mean, to the point where like, even in high school, when I would get close with teachers, I would be really sad. In high school, I had teachers who were cool, I would hang out with, like I would hang out after school. I was involved in lots of different things at school. So I just developed relationships with my teachers, appropriate professional relationships, right. Not professional, but appropriate student teacher relationships. And we'd hang out and we'd chit chat and I'd talk about my life. Alyssa Scolari [17:33]: And even at the end of the school year, I was sad because I felt like these teachers were leaving me. Now, of course, they weren't and that was just part of life. But it was a result of my core wound. And then, of course, even today I still struggle. I still struggle with feeling like, if my husband and I get into an argument, or we're not seeing eye to eye on things, I'm sort of like, oh my gosh, this is the end of our marriage. It's over. He's going to leave me. He's not going to want me. I really do struggle with all of those thoughts coming back to the surface despite the fact that it's very normal to argue and we get through all of our arguments and we're fine. Alyssa Scolari [18:22]: My brain loves to tell me otherwise, my brain loves to be like, huh, he looked at you kind of weird today. He's probably thinking about how he's going to abandon us tonight. Really that's literally what my brain does. And we laugh about it when it comes up for me, I'll say it to my husband and then we kind of like call it what it is. And we make a joke about it and we laugh about it. But the truth of the matter is that that abandonment doesn't have as much of a hold on my life anymore because I've worked through it. But honestly, when you're in it, it is the worst feeling in the world. And I know so many of you can relate. Alyssa Scolari [19:05]: Now, the next one is fear of rejection. And this one is also a really hard one for me. Now, fear of rejection, it's pretty self explanatory. That's exactly what it sounds like. It's the fear of being rejected. And this can happen really from the moment of conception and being born. This can manifest if, as a mom, if you are struggling really bad with postpartum depression or you're really, really sick after giving birth and you can't hold your baby, rejection can manifest in that way. Alyssa Scolari [19:43]: Again, babies need a lot of nurturing. And if their moms are there, it's a little bit different than abandonment, because it's like, I haven't been left, I see my parents are here, but I'm not getting what I need, right. That's how it kind of looks like early on, early infancy type. But then as you get older, right, rejection can also look like parents who are not accepting of who you are. We see this so much in children who show early signs of, I don't even want to say signs, I guess I should say children who try to play with toys or try to do things that don't fit within their gender norm. So if a child is born and that their sex is male and they're four, five, six years old, and they're playing Barbie dolls. Barbie dolls is a traditionally feminine, again, screw gender norms, because I don't believe in any of that, but it's a traditionally feminine toy. Barbie dolls are. Alyssa Scolari [20:57]: So it can look like the parents that are like, "Get rid of those Barbie dolls. You're like a little sissy. You're going to look like a girl or boys who want to wear dresses." Or, girls who want to play with trucks, right? All these things are traditionally feminine, masculine, and God forbid, kids cross over. And girls like trucks and boys like dresses, heaven forbid. Again, I don't agree with this, but when parents are not accepting, that manifests rejection and rejection can look in adulthood, it can look like the person who suppresses so much of who they are. Alyssa Scolari [21:41]: Sometimes it can be somebody who suppresses themselves, but still hangs out with people and is very social, right? So this person, the person in your life who you see and you talk to, but you feel like you can never quite really get to know because they keep so much of who they really are hidden from the world, right. Or it can look like that person who never socializes, who really has withdrawn and has isolated themselves because they are so fearful of being rejected again. It also can look like somebody who has a really difficult time taking feedback and Lord, oh Lord, I am absolutely that person. Or should I say I was that person because I'm actually really good at taking feedback now. But I had a really hard time. Alyssa Scolari [22:40]: If you work in a company and you have like your performance evaluation, right? Some people have like performance evaluation and then get nervous. Of course, that's very natural. But the people who have core wounds of rejection will be absolutely beside themselves over something like a performance evaluation. And some of them will avoid it altogether and never go and never show up and then take whatever punishment they get from work because the punishment that they will get from not showing up is easier than the feelings that they would have if they were to attend that performance evaluation and get rejected in some way, shape or form. Alyssa Scolari [23:26]: And if you have a performance evaluation and it's out of five stars, you get four stars. And you have one, one mild to moderate area for improvement. So people who don't have this core wound, they look at that and they go, "Okay, I did really, really great. I did great. And I'm going to con continue to work on this one thing. And that's awesome." But the people who have this core wound of rejection, it is the end of the world. And I mean that very literally. If whenever I got rejected or perceived rejection, because the truth of the matter is I wasn't rejected. When I first started out as a therapist, I would have supervision. And I would be told the ways in which I could improve. Now that is not rejection, but I absolutely perceived it as rejection, absolutely. And I would become so flooded with shame and it would ruin my day and I would cry and I would be so embarrassed. And I wouldn't want to look at my boss. Alyssa Scolari [24:38]: Now, a little caveat here, right. My boss at the time really didn't have the best way of saying things. So she was very blunt with me, which I don't think helped. But honestly, even if she had sugar coated everything that she said to me, I still would've been a disaster, right. Some people sugarcoat things, some people don't. I don't really sugarcoat things, but I do try to say them in a way that I know is not going to be so super hurtful. My boss really didn't care enough to do that at the time. So I just felt horrible afterwards. And like I said, even if she did care enough to speak to me in a much more respectful manner, it still probably wouldn't have mattered because of my core wound of rejection. People who have a core wound of rejection can also look like perfectionist, right. Which is me to a T. I was a perfectionist my whole life. I don't really think I am as much anymore, but it is really because I so deeply feared rejection because it is one of my core wounds. Alyssa Scolari [25:49]: So next, we have the fear of betrayal. This is a really tough one. I mean, they're all really tough, but the core wound is the betrayal here. And this can start anywhere from between like two to four years of age. Whereas abandonment and rejection can start much earlier. Betrayal can start a little bit later, like between two to four years and up. And really what this is in its purest form is a lack of trust in your caregiver or parent. And this can happen in a number of ways. This can look like finding out that a parent has been lying, right? Kids snoop, kids are sneaky. I cannot tell you the number of children I have worked with that have walked into my office and been like, "So I found out last night that my dad has been cheating on my mom or that my mom has been cheating on my dad and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Alyssa Scolari [27:00]: Like that can manifest as a core wound of betrayal because that child is seeing that, seeing that adult or caregiver or parent behave in dishonest ways and that child can no longer trust the parent. This happens so much with abuse, so much with abuse. Parents who are physically abusive, who hit, who try to use fear to gain control over their kids, right? Like let me get the belt. I'm going to go get that belt. I'll give you something to cry about if you don't stop crying or kids who come home from school and maybe they had a bad day and their parents are like, "You don't know what it's like to have a bad day. You have it easy. Wait until you see what it's like when you're an adult." That is creating mistrust. Alyssa Scolari [27:59]: You as a parent are teaching your kid or as a caretaker are teaching the child that you cannot confide in me because I am only going to hurt you when you are vulnerable or if it's like the cheating circumstance, you cannot confide in me, you cannot trust me because I am doing things that are wrong. I am not acting in alignment with the morals I am trying to teach you. Alyssa Scolari [28:28]: Betrayal, of course, can also come in sexual abuse. That is one of the ultimate forms of betrayal. It can come in so many ways, right. Which is why I always promote transparency with parents and kids. A lot of parents feel like I shouldn't tell my kid this. And I feel like, yes, but if your child is asking or if they're snooping, then it's probably time to talk to them. Alyssa Scolari [29:02]: For example, I've seen a lot of parents and caretakers be dishonest with kids about how maybe a loved one has passed. If a loved one has passed in a way that is like shameful or, not shameful because there's no way of dying that is shameful. But what I mean is like stigmatized as being shameful in society, right? So let's say that a parent passes away and the other parent tells the kid like, "Mommy died from." I don't know, whatever it could be, right? Mommy died in a car accident or mommy died of a heart attack when the reality is that mommy died from a drug overdose or a suicide, that can manifest in betrayal. Alyssa Scolari [29:55]: Now again, if your child isn't asking, "Well, how did mommy die?" Then that's your sign that your child isn't ready to know. Kids will ask and when they ask that means that they are ready to hear, even if it might be painful. So lying and trying to keep that lie, all that does is manifest betrayal because then that child will find out, because kids find out everything. If I have learned nothing from working with kids over the years, I know that they just know everything, they really do. Alyssa Scolari [30:34]: So no, that can be a very controversial topic. I feel very strongly about it. A lot of the new research coming out on parenting, they also feel very strongly about it. Lying to your kids about things like that can manifest in betrayal. So there's all different ways betrayal can manifest as with any of the other core wounds, but it creates a deep, deep sense of mistrust in one self and in the world. And this can come out in adulthood as somebody who is extremely controlling and somebody who again, might not be able to get into relationships because they don't trust other people or they get into relationships and they feel the need to control that person, right? Like I need to have your passwords, your Snapchat password, Instagram password. You need to give me access to your phone 24/7. Alyssa Scolari [31:32]: No, I'm not saying that transparency with social media is a bad thing, I think it's a good thing, but there's a difference between a healthy transparency and somebody who's being controlling and is like, "Give me your phone right now, I'm going through it. I want to see what's going on. I don't trust you." Without really any kind of like rhyme or reason, right? So betrayal can look like that, or it can look like the person who just avoids relationships all together. As we can see with these core wounds so far, they all deeply affect our relationship with ourselves and others, especially romantic relationships. These core wounds can have a huge, huge impact on our adulthood, which is why we are talking about them today. Alyssa Scolari [32:26]: So that is a lot. I'm going to stop for today. I'm going to pick this back up next week. I actually really enjoy talking about this because I feel like we can all relate. Feelings of betrayal for me personally, I can relate, but I don't think that this one is as relatable for me as rejection and abandonment, but I also tend to believe that the betrayal one is truly one of the most harmful ones. All of these core wounds by the way, we can fix, you can heal, you can get better. We are going to talk about that in next week's episode. Alyssa Scolari [33:10]: So I hope that you enjoyed this today. We'll be back next week with part two, where we talk about the last two and then some ways to be able to heal from these core wounds, right? The last two are fear of humiliation and injustice, fear of injustice. And so we're going to talk about that next week. And if you have any questions, you know where to find me. As a friendly reminder, if you would like any special requests for episode topics, you certainly can feel free to request a topic. If you are a Patreon member. So our Patreon is at the link in the show notes. So please feel free to go over and check that out. And if you haven't done so already, please give us a follow on Instagram. The handle is light after trauma. I am holding you all on the light. I am sending you all so much love and I will be back again next week. Take care everybody. Alyssa Scolari [34:07]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. To support our show, we are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support. Alyssa Scolari [34:43]: [Singing].

In episode 73, Alyssa shared about her ongoing battle with endometriosis, a chronic and extremely painful disease. This week Alyssa is following up with a part 2 to episode 73, in which she shares about her recovery process from surgery in January. Alyssa opens up about the lessons endometriosis has taught her about her own PTSD recovery as well as the scary truth about why trauma treatment is crucial when it comes to overall health and wellness.   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma   Transcript   Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari, back with an update on my surgery that I had January 27th. Alyssa Scolari [00:36]: So I was actually just looking back to see when I released my first episode where I was talking about my struggle with endometriosis, and it was December 14th, so I have not updated you all in over two months. My surgery was January 27th, and as I was listening back to the episode that I recorded on December, well that I recorded for everybody on December 14th, I was in such a dark, dark place, and obviously that is perfectly valid. I want to let you all know that I am not in such a dark place anymore. It has been a very long couple of months. Honestly, it's been a long probably seven or eight months because I started to get sick probably around eight months or so ago. So it's been a very long process, and the last few months, especially have been understandably extremely traumatic but I think I'm finally on the other side, which is so exciting. Alyssa Scolari [01:52]: I have learned so much about endometriosis these last couple months and really about myself and how related this is to, I think, trauma and my trauma recovery, and I'm really excited to share that with you all today. I learned even more about endometriosis in the last two months than I knew when I recorded that first episode for you all back in December so we're just going to get into a little bit of it today. I'm really happy that I'm finally having the energy and feeling well enough, both emotionally and physically, to be able to talk about it. Alyssa Scolari [02:30]: So, as I said, I had my surgery January 27th. And for those of you who might be new to this episode, as I touched on, I have been really sick with severe, severe pain. Period pain that is... Really, period pain doesn't even do it justice. I was throwing up, I was passing out, I was getting my period every two weeks. I was experiencing intense inflammation and bloating and chronic fatigue. I was tired all of the time but I couldn't sleep because I was in so much pain. It truly was the worst pain I've ever felt before in my life, and I have broken bones, I, and this is a little bit of a trigger warning for anybody who's squeamish, pause now or turn the volume down right now, but I know physical pain. I mean, I broke my wrist twice when I was eight years old. The second time I broke it, the bone literally came out of my skin. I have sliced half of my finger off in a mandolin slicer and just many other things. I know pain. And when I tell you that this was the absolute worst pain I have ever felt in my life I say that while also making sure you realize that I have an extremely high pain tolerance. Alyssa Scolari [03:52]: So the pain was only continuing to get worse and I think it took a very significant turn for the worse in October when I really started to have severe gastrointestinal issues, which also is a side effect or a symptom of endometriosis that nobody told me about, or I wasn't informed of I should say, or maybe I didn't quite come across in my research at that point. So I was going to GI doctors because I was nauseous all the time. I always felt like I was going to throw up. I couldn't really keep anything in. It was a mess. I was a mess. I had gotten to a point where I was just juicing and just consuming juice, fruits, and vegetables and chicken broth to get any kind of nutrients in. And during that time, I was just continuing to become more inflamed and more inflamed. And when I would get bloated, I genuinely looked like I was seven to eight months pregnant. It was unlike anything I've ever seen. Alyssa Scolari [04:59]: So these are just a few symptoms of endometriosis. I talk more about them, so feel free to go back and listen to that episode. But as you know, I was in an extremely dark place then. I couldn't work. I couldn't eat. I had no energy to do anything. I turned 30 years old in January 6th, and it was truly the most depressing birthday of my life because I felt like I was 99 years old and all I could do was cry. I had to really stop working, and it was just very, very scary. It was all I could do even to just keep up with the clients I was seeing and be able to record this podcast, honestly. Alyssa Scolari [05:42]: Again, I had had this surgeon, I know I talked about this in my other episode, but just to recap, I had this surgeon who told me that basically if the endometriosis had spread to my other organs, which is very possible because this disease is essentially these black lesions that grow into your organs, they don't just grow on top, they grow into your organs, and so it has to be scraped out of your organs. And I was told that if it had spread to my bladder or other parts of my body that I could potentially need another surgery, if not multiple other surgeries. And I was also told that if the endometriosis has caused a lot of scarring, which is also a big possibility, that I could potentially have fertility issues, which was extremely frightening to me because I think that one of the things I look forward to the most in life right now is being a mom. So it was extremely scary. A huge sense of foreboding was with us always. Alyssa Scolari [06:54]: And to make things even worse, after the holidays, there was a huge rise in the Omicron virus. So with so many people, everybody and their mother had COVID during the last few days of December and those first few weeks of January, and I had gotten wind that the hospital that I was supposed to have my surgery at actually canceled the first two weeks of surgeries in January and they were going to reassess after those two weeks in January and see if they needed to continue to cancel more surgeries. So I was panicking that my surgery was going to be canceled. I had met somebody who had endometriosis surgery and she was actually scheduled to have it in March of 2020, right when the pandemic really hit us and we went into lockdown, her surgery was canceled and she wasn't able to have surgery until June of that year. And I understand it might seem like a couple of months, but when you are in this amount of pain every single day, I am telling you it is unbearable. I have no idea how she did it but God bless her. God bless her. Alyssa Scolari [08:15]: So thankfully that was not the case. My surgery went on as planned and I was really excited. By the time January 27th got here, I really didn't have many fears, which is unnatural for me because I have horrible anxiety and I had to be on birth control, which made my anxiety so much worse. So I was actually just really excited for the surgery. Went in, of course it took forever, it's an all day thing. We had to report to the hospital by 11:00 AM and we didn't get out of there until I think 7:30 at night, and most of that was just prepping me for the surgery. You just sit in a bed with an IV in and then wait. Alyssa Scolari [09:01]: Now, thankfully I had the most incredible nurses and my IV team and the anesthesiologist. I met people there that felt like they were my soulmates. I honestly feel like I was destined to meet them. One of my nurses was actually, I discovered, one of my neighbors. So I really hope to see her. I mean, God bless nurses right now and how hard they have it. Nurses have every reason to be miserable and hate their job right now with the way they're being treated. But I just had the most pleasant people, despite the fact that I'm sure they have all been so traumatized over the last several years, so I am really grateful for that. I honestly could not have asked for a better experience. Alyssa Scolari [09:54]: I went into the surgery blindly because... Well, I actually thought, and I had said this in my last episode that I did on my battle with endometriosis, I had said that the only way to diagnose endometriosis really is through an exploratory laparoscopic surgery. I have now realized that that's actually not true. A lot of upcoming research and science is telling us that if we know what to look for we actually can spot endometriosis in a transvaginal ultrasound, which I think is really neat. I think a lot of this research is new and a lot of the science is very, very new, so that's not how things work with the surgeon that I had but come to find out it is actually possible. So it pays to, if you are somebody who thinks you might be struggling with endometriosis, definitely pays to do your research and see if maybe you are able to go and see somebody who knows how to diagnose endometriosis through an ultrasound. I don't think it's a 100% guarantee. I mean, I really don't know, honestly. I'm not an expertise in that area but I do know that it's possible. Alyssa Scolari [11:12]: So with me, I had no clue what to expect going in. And there was huge possibility it could have spread all over, and I was actually expecting that because my symptoms only continued to get worse and worse and worse. I was really expecting for it to be horrible with the level of pain I was in. Alyssa Scolari [11:33]: My surgery was an hour and a half, I believe she operated on me for and I mean, I just remember everybody being so nice to me and telling me that they were going to take great care of me and then I woke up. I woke up yelling because I was in so much pain when I woke up. But as soon as I woke up, I wasn't even able to open my eyes yet, I don't know if you've ever been... If you've ever been under anesthesia you'll understand this, but you become conscious before you can open your eyes. So I was conscious, I just couldn't open my eyes, and I remember feeling so much pain so I was just moaning and they were giving me pain meds, but what I thought instantly when I came into consciousness is, "Oh my gosh, I feel better." I was able to say that even just [inaudible 00:12:31] how much pain I was in from the four incisions that I had. I was like, "Oh wow. I already feel a difference." Alyssa Scolari [12:41]: I think I woke up from surgery around 5:30 and I am telling you by 7;30, when I left that hospital, I was so overcome with happy tears. Man, I'm going to cry again. I was so overcome with happy tears. I nearly skipped out of there. I cannot tell you how different I felt. It felt like somebody took away whatever version that was of me and put the real me back together because I had finally felt like myself for the first time in I really don't know how long. It was simply incredible. Alyssa Scolari [13:22]: Now of course, recovery has been tough. Really, really tough. I felt instantly better but I needed to recover. I needed to stay home. I needed to be slow. And being slow and intentional with my healing brought up so many emotions because it really was a invasion of my womb. She took six specimens out of me and, keep in mind, as I said earlier, this isn't just something where you scrape it off the top. Endometriosis grows inside so you have to dig it out. It's called excision surgery, so she had to dig in six different spots all over my organs. Alyssa Scolari [14:13]: Now, she took the pictures, which I think is really cool. She took pictures while she was doing surgery on me and she sent me home with those pictures, and I was also told that she might not even know if it's endometriosis. I might not know until my post-op appointment two weeks after my surgery. So I was like, "Oh great. I have to have the surgery and then I have to wait two weeks for answers." Luckily, she was able to tell me at the hospital that she was fairly certain that what she took from me was endometriosis, which was hugely relieving. And she sent me home with pictures and she said that the endometriosis had spread, so it did spread a little bit, however, she was able to remove it from all the parts of my body that she saw it in. That was really relieving because it was looking like I wasn't going to need a second surgery. Alyssa Scolari [15:12]: So really the goal now that I went home, I went home feeling better already, I went home having answers. I was of course in a ton of pain from the surgery, but the goal was to just heal and recover. And that first week of being home was really a, I think, life-altering week for me because it made me realize so much. Alyssa Scolari [15:39]: I understand that I've talked on this podcast before about how emotional trauma can manifest and often does manifest physically, but I don't think I realized how much of my trauma I was still storing in my womb. I've never, ever agreed so much with Bessel van der Kolk's, The Body Keeps the Score. If you haven't read his book and you're interested in learning more about how trauma is stored in the body, I highly recommend it. I knew this of course, and I believed it, but I never fully comprehended it until my first week postop when I was crying every day and I couldn't understand why but it was just this grief that was welling up in me. And I didn't want to be alone, and I wasn't alone. I mean, my husband was home. He was home, he was working from home, but I was even frustrated with him for working because I felt like I needed somebody to give me 110% of their attention. Alyssa Scolari [16:51]: When I first noticed I was feeling that way, I started to judge myself, "Alyssa, why are you being so needy? Grow up. You're an adult. You have to take care of yourself." But then I started to process that and I started to let go of all of those judgements and I started to really understand what was happening for me and I realized that I was grieving heavily. I was grieving the abuse I endured. I was grieving the things in my life that I missed out on as a result of the abuse. I was grieving the last several years and things that have happened with... Well, honestly, I'll get more into it another time. But I know that I've mentioned that I had had a therapist who really did a lot of harm to me and I think that I was grieving that and it all just hit me. Everything that I was storing came to light and I was just feeling and feeling and feeling, so I laid in bed for a week. Alyssa Scolari [18:10]: Yeah, I was recovering from surgery but I was also extremely depressed. And I just let myself be depressed because I am such a chronic over-functioner. No matter how I feel, I still function at a 10 out of 10 even on my worst days. And that, my friends, is really unhealthy. So I let myself fall apart and I let myself not answer text messages and I let myself not look at my phone and I just let it wash over me. It was one of the hardest weeks of my life. I don't know that anybody could really ever understand how hard it was. Alyssa Scolari [19:00]: Before I went into surgery, my friend, Jen, Jennifer Burns, who was on the show, she was on the podcast, we did an episode about healing crystals, she gave me this advice that when you go into surgery, "I want you to imagine them taking your abuse out, taking it all out," and I did that. I imagined that. I brought my crystals into the hospital with me and was just holding them in my bed and was meditating and was imagining that when they were taking out this endometriosis, they were also taking out the abuse. And I think that the weight of that really hit me. Alyssa Scolari [19:43]: So I had a lot of time to process and a lot of time to think, and I know that in the very early episodes of this podcast I talked about childhood trauma and complex trauma, and how, if it goes untreated, it can lead to disease and it can lead to chronic illnesses and autoimmune issues. If you want to read more about that, please go to acestoohigh.com. It is really, really fascinating to learn about the long term effects that trauma can have. And I thought to myself, "I don't understand, I've been in treatment, I've been working on this. Why is this happening?" And it all clicked for me that while I have been able to intellectually talk about what I've been through, with everything going on, with having a very upsetting and traumatic experience with a therapist, and with moving and starting my business and my podcast, I really haven't had a whole lot of time to feel. I know what I've been through, I'm aware of it and I can talk about it, but I don't really feel it when I do talk about it. I've managed to dissociate a little bit, I've disconnected and I stored all of those feelings. So I understood why I got so sick this past year. I really understood it. It clicked for me. Alyssa Scolari [21:29]: Now, I'm going to say this, I'm no doctor, I'm no specialist in autoimmune diseases or endometriosis, but here's what I know, I know that endometriosis is being considered for autoimmune, an autoimmune disease, in the autoimmune spectrum, and what we do know... I had said in my other episode that I did that endometriosis is caused by an estrogen dominance and I've learned that that might be true, but not necessarily. At the end of the day, we really don't know what causes endometriosis. One in 10 people with female reproductive organs suffer from endometriosis, and that's probably an understatement because women are so gas lit and told that their pain isn't real so it's probably much more than that because it takes a person an average of seven years to even be diagnosed. Thank God I am stubborn and don't take no for an answer when it comes to my health and my goals and my dreams and I just kept going to doctor, after doctor, after doctor until somebody would listen to me, but not everybody can do that, unfortunately. So I would say it's even more than that. Alyssa Scolari [22:57]: So I would say a significant portion of women can suffer from this disease and we still don't know what causes it. There's still so much that is unknown. And over the last several months, I've taken a really big, deep dive into... I've always been interested in Eastern medicine and Eastern ways of healing, but I've taken a really deep dive into Chinese medicine, and I've learned a lot from Lily Choi. You could follow her on Instagram. I believe her handle is lilychoinaturalhealing. I highly recommend you give her a follow, she's incredible. And I have been taking some Chinese medicine and I've been really thinking about what could have caused this disease for me. Alyssa Scolari [23:48]: Now, again, there isn't a ton of research on the direct link between trauma and endometriosis, but that's because we really have neglected as a society how trauma can affect women long term, especially sexual trauma. It cannot be a coincidence. I can't believe that it can be a coincidence that I, with my history of abuse, just happened to have a disease in the same area that has held my abuse for 30 years or less than 30 years, whatever it may be. That can't be a coincidence. That doesn't strike me as a coincidence. Alyssa Scolari [24:38]: So while there isn't a ton of research out there and I am no doctor, for me, it makes so much sense that I have been holding onto my abuse and it has been really eating away at me and festering, stored in my womb. I think this is also why I have so many hip problems and lower back problems because of everything I've been holding. And this might seem like, "Well, yeah, duh," but honestly, for me, it's been a huge revelation. Despite the fact that I may talk about this on my podcast, it's a little bit different to experience this in my personal life. Alyssa Scolari [25:20]: I really do think that all of the chronic stress has caused me to be living in a chronic and constant state of fight or flight, which means that the cortisol levels in my body, and cortisol is the primary stress hormone in our bodies, the cortisol levels in my body have been heightened for years. I know this because I've had blood work that showed my cortisol levels are extremely high, much higher than what they should be. So for years, I have had heightened cortisol levels and what that can do is it can throw off the balance of all of your other hormones, which could potentially have led to an estrogen dominance, which could have potentially led to the growth of this endometriosis. Alyssa Scolari [26:11]: Again, I'm not a doctor. I really don't know the case for anybody else. I only know me and I know that the limited research that we have out there clearly shows that the amount of people with trauma are... First of all, there are so many people out there with trauma that it goes untreated for and people who might be able to talk about it but don't truly work through the feelings, and the research tells us that those people are more likely to develop diseases and chronic illnesses, heart disease, lung cancer, things like that. We are more likely. Now, again, correlation does not equal causation. So just because you're more likely doesn't mean it's going to happen to you. But I really feel like this highlights the importance of keeping your stress hormones down. Alyssa Scolari [27:05]: So what does that mean for me? Well, over the last several weeks, I have been working to change my life in ways so that my nervous system can take some time to relax. I've been using Chinese medicine that is supposed to help balance out your hormones. I have been setting firmer boundaries. I have been looking at the medications that I am on and looking at all of the side effects. I am taking an acid reflux pill that I didn't even know can cause vitamin B12 deficiencies. Deficiencies in vitamin B12 can lead to mental health difficulties, also GI issues. I had no idea. Nobody ever told me. So what am I doing? Well now I'm taking a B12 supplement. Alyssa Scolari [27:58]: So I have really been doing a deep dive into what am I putting in my body, and that is not in an eating disorder way, but how can I achieve the most balance in my body, the most balance possible, and how can I work to regulate my nervous system? So I am saying no to things that stress me out. I am saying yes to slowness. I am working hard through the guilt that comes up when I notice that I might not be as productive as I'd like to be. I am really listening to my body. Alyssa Scolari [28:42]: Some might say I'm overanalyzing, but I don't think I am because I have just spent so much time not listening to what my body needs and now I'm really ready to listen because I really get it. It was like my body had to be like, "Hey, if you don't start taking care of me this is what the rest of your life is going to look like." And I don't want that. I don't want that. I want more than anything to be happy and healthy and carefree. So that's what I've been striving towards. Alyssa Scolari [29:17]: And I have been very firm with doctors. Whenever I have a doctor's appointment, I reach out beforehand, I let them know that I have a history of trauma and that my husband is coming in to support me so that doctors can't say, "Well, you can't bring someone in because of COVID." I am not meeting with people who stress me out. I am just doing what I need to do for myself and feeling much less apologetic about it than I ever would've felt in the past. Alyssa Scolari [29:48]: So if you are somebody who can relate to this, this is your call to action. Take time to think about what you need to start making your nervous system even just a little bit calmer. You don't have to change everything right now. Rome wasn't built in a day. But make those steps. For me, journaling, like writing it out has really, really helped me, so I encourage you to do that too. Do what is best for you. Alyssa Scolari [30:22]: Now, of course, with endometriosis there's always a possibility that it can grow back. Always a possibility. That possibility is less likely when you have surgery with an endometriosis specialist, which I did. But because we don't know enough about, it can grow back. So knowing what I know about myself and my body and having this belief about why I developed this disease in the first place, I am making every effort to live more freely and easily so that I do not have this disease return. I don't know what the future's going to look like, maybe I'm completely out of my mind wrong about all of this and maybe it's going to come back regardless. But the fact of the matter is there's really nothing I can do because despite what many doctors might believe, the fact of the matter is birth control actually doesn't keep endometriosis away. All it does is mask the pain. So I can really just do what I can do, which is keeping my body as healthy and as stress-free as possible in the hopes that that is going to keep chronic illness away from me because I am 30. I have a long life left to live and I want it to be the best possible life that I can have, and I want that for you all too. Alyssa Scolari [31:58]: So please take extra good care of yourselves. Make the changes in your life that you need to make, whether it's setting boundaries with people who are causing you stress, working less. Remember that you are more important than money. Now, of course, that's easier said than done if you are struggling and living paycheck to paycheck, so please keep that in mind. But please remember that there is only one of you and we only get one go around in this life and we got to make it count. Alyssa Scolari [32:31]: So I love you all. I am holding you in the light. Thank you so much for your support throughout this entire process. I am continuing to heal. I will still be here because this podcast makes me so happy and you all make me so happy. And I think the year 2022 is going to be a really good one. Alyssa Scolari [32:55]: If you have any questions or any issues, again, please remember none of this was medical advice. I am certainly no doctor. But any questions, please feel free to reach out to me. If you haven't done so already, please follow us on Instagram, @lightaftertrauma. And if you haven't left a review for the podcast, please do so. Alyssa Scolari [33:17]: Also, if you are a patron, if you are a member on Patreon, please note that you can feel free to send specific episode requests. So if there's a certain topic that you would like, and you want me to talk about, please feel free to become a patron and you can send me a message on Patreon and I will do an episode about that. Alyssa Scolari [33:42]: Thank you all very much. Have a wonderful day and I will be back next week. Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

"Good vibes only!"  "Keep a positive mindset." "Try to focus on the good." These can all be examples of a cultural phenomenon known as toxic positivity. Toxic positivity is the belief that we will feel better if we only allow space for good things and block out the bad. Sadly, this concept is extremely harmful. Tune in to learn about how toxic positivity shows up in our lives, why it is so harmful, and what we can do about it.  Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon. Every bit helps! Transcript Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari. Happy to be here as always. And today is, well, technically, if you're listening to this episode on the date that it airs, it is February 15th. But as I'm recording this, today's actually Sunday, February 13th, and this weekend has been weird. I live in Pennsylvania, so I don't know anybody who's on the East Coast area and the Northeast part of the United States or anywhere else in the world. I don't know if you've had similar weather, but this weekend has been kind of strange, like polar opposites. Yesterday is Saturday, it was, I think, over 60 degrees in this area, and it felt like spring. Alyssa Scolari [01:15]: My husband and I woke up and my husband was all pumped up and energetic. And he was like, "Oh, let's go to Lowe's and get some stuff to plant grass in March and," I don't know, "fertilizer." And I think there's stuff you have to put down before you plant grass. I don't know. This is not a podcast on planting grass, but it was like, "Let's go to Lowe's and let's get out." It was gorgeous, and so we went out and we did not go to Lowe's because we drove by the Garden Center and it was absolutely empty. We were like, "Ah, it might be a little too soon to start thinking about planting stuff outside for the spring." But we actually went to this what we thought was just a coffee roastery, coffee roast. I don't know. They make coffee for you to... not like a coffee shop, but coffee for you to grab and take home and have regularly with your Keurig or whatever it may be. Alyssa Scolari [02:20]: So we went there to try to go see what kind of coffee they have, and I am telling you, it was something out of Harry Potter. For all my Harry Potter fans out there, it was this little tiny shack on the outside, and when we walked in, it was massive, and it was nothing we would've expected. It had mazes and twists and turns, and it actually had... the halls were so narrow because it had so much stuff that you at one point had to even turn to your side and walk sideways just to move down the hallway and make sure that you didn't knock anything over. And of course, with my hips, I was hitting shit and whatever, but it was so much fun. And it didn't just have coffee, they had everything, they had every kind of tea you can imagine. Alyssa Scolari [03:19]: They had, I think, fancy gourmet, nuts, or chocolate covered nuts, or things that, every kind of gourmet chocolate you can imagine. They had chocolate-covered graham crackers, chocolate-covered Oreos, chocolate-covered marshmallows. And they had all different kinds of spices and PEZ dispensers. Does anybody remember PEZ dispensers? So much fun. They had Lion King PEZ dispensers and all different types. But it really was a blast from the past. There was candy there that I had not seen in, honestly, probably 20 years. It was so much fun. It was nothing like we expected. We totally got lost in there. We did end up getting some coffee and some candy. Anybody of you remember those, and I think they're actually still pretty popular, the Peach Rings, the gummis? We got the rings but watermelon-flavored, which I had actually never had before. Alyssa Scolari [04:25]: They're amazing. Amazing. We did that yesterday, and then we had a good day. I think we were both really looking forward to springtime and the warm weather. And then I woke up today and it was snowing, which is fine for me. I love the snow. I'm actually staring out the window as we speak watching the snow fall, and it is absolutely magical, but it's just polar opposites. Spring is around the corner, but mother nature is here to remind me and you that it is still winter, at least, in this part of the world. It's been a pretty good weekend. I'm still just over two weeks post-operation. I'm still recovering. I think there's been a lot of emotional things that are coming up for me. On Friday, I had my post-op appointment, so it was my first appointment with the surgeon since the surgery. She checked out my incisions, and she said that they look good. Alyssa Scolari [05:32]: And then we talked about some other stuff. Again, I'm still going to do an episode about what happened in the surgery and how I'm doing in plans afterwards, but I'm just giving myself some more time to heal. Still in some pain. It's just been very, very emotional. I knew that having surgery on my lower abdomen was going to be emotional. I knew that going into it, but I don't think I knew just how emotional. As somebody who has had repressed trauma, I've been dealing with a lot of memories that have been coming to the surface, things that I had never remembered before. And, it has felt, I think, very overwhelming and very frustrating because I had the surgery and I want to be so happy and I want to move on with my life, but my brain is kind of like, "Oh, hey, I think that it's time to remember this about your past and this about your past," and it's been quite the roller coaster. Alyssa Scolari [06:38]: So, I'm still giving myself a little bit of time. I'm thinking maybe next week I'll be able to do a part two to the endometriosis, like the first episode that I did, where I kind of talked more in-depth about what I'm going through. But, today, I want to talk about toxic positivity, which is always I think a really interesting topic. It's something that I think gets a fair amount of attention. Now, I do want to preface this conversation with saying this, and really all podcast episodes can assume to be prefaced with this. I have seen, over the last several weeks, on social media platforms, especially TikTok, I actually yesterday deleted TikTok from my phone. I didn't delete my TikTok account, but I deleted it from my phone because I need a break from TikTok. It is really wearing on my mental health. Alyssa Scolari [07:42]: And, even though I don't go on the For You page... If you're on TikTok, there's two options, right? You can go on the For You page where you can see new creators and lots of people that you don't follow but potentially could follow, and then there's the following page where you're just looking at the people that you follow. I am never on the For You page because I never want to risk something triggering come up because I just don't need that, right? I don't need TikTok to tell me what it thinks is best for me, so I'm never on the For You page. I'm always on the Following page, and the people I follow are typically pretty, pretty safe. But, honestly, it's still been way too much for me lately, so I deleted it off my phone yesterday. Alyssa Scolari [08:32]: One of the things that has really been bothering me, again, whether it's TikTok or Instagram, or even Facebook, is the amount of misinformation that gets spread about mental health. I mean, there's so much misinformation that gets spread about everything, but obviously me being in this field, the mental health information really bothers me the most because our profession already isn't taken seriously. As therapists, we are not taken nearly as seriously as other healthcare providers. We are rarely even considered healthcare providers, and we don't make as much as other healthcare providers. Whatever. I could go on and on. But, with the increased usage in social media, especially since the pandemic and since we were all in quarantine, there are so many people out there who are calling themselves coaches. Alyssa Scolari [09:34]: Again, it's nothing I against coaches. I've had plenty of coaches on my show, and it's been absolutely fine. But, so many people are just calling themselves coaches, and really they're not, or they are coaches, but they still don't have the proper training in mental health. And, because of that, they do a lot of people a disservice because what they are sharing with people, they are getting incorrect, or they're only sharing part of the truth, or they're not considering all aspects to a concept that they're sharing, and it can be really, really damaging. I think that people have really turned to the internet for self-help and for support, especially when it comes to mental health, and people are not getting a lot of the correct information. Now, please don't get me wrong. There are tons of creators out there who share incredible information, and it's extremely useful. Alyssa Scolari [10:41]: If you are following those people, please continue to do so, but I just encourage you to really look at who you are following and who you are absorbing content from and if they have the qualifications that they should have to be able to talk about what they're talking about. Just do a little research because I have found, especially even some of my clients, some of my new clients that have come in, they're like, "Well, for the last several years, I've been following so and so on TikTok, and they say this." And it's like, "Okay. Well, what degree does so and so have to be able to share this information?" Again, I'm not putting myself or anyone else who has a degree on a pedestal. Honestly, I think that some people who don't have the highest qualifications can be better than people who do have the highest qualifications. Alyssa Scolari [11:39]: But, what's important is that you are knowing where this person is getting their information from, right? Are they pulling it out of their ass? Are they qualified? Okay. So they say that they're a life coach. Well, that's great. But, what does that actually mean? What kind of training have they had? I think it's really important to pay attention to that. Again, I am not bashing life coaches. I think there are great ones. For example, on TikTok, there's a woman, her name is called Anna Bobana, I believe. She has become a life coach, and she has so much experience, so much personal experience with mental health struggles and trauma and addiction and things like that, and she's phenomenal. So, please don't misunderstand this as me bashing life coaches because I am not. It's just that I want you to remember to always see, look into what you're seeing. Alyssa Scolari [12:39]: Don't take what you're seeing on the internet at face value, especially when it comes to mental health, because it could be doing more harm than good. With that being said, we'll transition into toxic positivity. Now, I have seen a lot of things on the internet about toxic positivity, and I've seen a lot of things that directly counteract toxic positivity or contradict toxic positivity. There's this huge movement, and has been for several year now, about being positive and good vibes only. How many content creators and how many organizations have created shirts, hats, water bottles, stickers, this, that, and a third that say good vibes only, good vibes only, good vibes only. And that's great, right? You'll write that on a shirt in happy font, in a happy color, with a little sun sticking out. Alyssa Scolari [13:45]: Sounds great, right? No. Actually, that's extremely damaging, especially given the world that we are living in right now. Let me take a step back. What is toxic positivity? Well, toxic positivity is sort of this push or this assumption and this belief that despite whatever you're going through, despite whatever pain or discomfort you might be in, you should always keep the bright side in mind. You should always keep trying to maintain a positive mindset despite what may be happening. There's this meme that always comes to mind when I think of toxic positivity, and I'm sure so many of you have seen it where it's like, I think it's a dog who's sitting at the kitchen table with the newspaper open, and all around the dog there's like flames, like the whole house is on fire. The dog is just sitting there like, "This is fine. This is fine. Everything's fine," and everything around him or her or them is on fire. Alyssa Scolari [14:59]: I just think that that is like a perfect example of toxic positivity, right? Things around us could be on fire. In fact, the world is on fire right now and really has been for over two years. More than ever, especially in the pandemic, I have seen so many people pushing this idea of toxic positivity. "Keep a positive mindset. You have to stay positive. You have to stay strong." Let's talk about some more specific real-world examples of this. Again, let's go back to social media. One thing that I often see pop up, especially on TikTok, are these creators, whether they are makeup artists or just general content creators or stylist creators, they almost always have started either a series of videos on how to self-care, or how to achieve happiness, or how to get through something difficult, X, Y, Z, whatever it may be. Alyssa Scolari [16:20]: Well, I often see these people say things like, "You just have to have a positive outlook and be hopeful for what's going to come in your future," or, "You just have to change your way of thinking and believe that you are worthy of the best in life. You just have to focus on what you have instead of perseverating or ruminating on what you don't have," and that is really easy to say coming from somebody who makes hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars on a social media app. Not that their job isn't difficult because I believe at their job is actually one of the most difficult things. I think that they face more pressure having social media as their job than probably most other people, and I really believe it's one of the hardest jobs, so I am not by any means belittling or diminishing the work that they do. Alyssa Scolari [17:34]: But, so often, I just see them saying things like, "I make a gratitude list," and, "I focus on what I have," and, "I'm very thankful for this," and, "I'm very thankful for that," and, "That is how I pull myself out of a funk." That is so great, and I am so glad that that works, but I honestly think that so much of it is them omitting the truth. Yes, gratitude lists are phenomenal. They are great. They can really help shift your mindset. But, not many people on social media say, "I let myself sob it out. I let myself have days where I'm depressed. I acknowledge how painful this is. I acknowledge that I didn't want to get up and brush my teeth or shower today. I laid in bed for three days before I have the ability to get up and make a gratitude list." Alyssa Scolari [18:32]: The dark side of what happens before the positive vibes come get omitted because that's not cute to talk about. Positive vibes are what's cute. Good vibes only are what's cute and trendy. It's not trendy to say, "I really struggle to brush my teeth and eat meals today." Don't get me wrong. Again, there are some creators out there who do a really good job at this, but for the most part, the people that tend to really thrive on social media are the ones who push this positive vibes only movement. I don't hate those people. I just think that they are sort of a reflection of this larger push in society to ignore the bad and ignore the pain and focus only on the good. Now, we've also seen this a lot with this pandemic, right? People have died, people have lost their jobs, people have had loved ones that they have not been able to see in years, so much time has been lost, millions of people have been lost, people had to say goodbye to their loved ones through FaceTime, and this pandemic still isn't over. Alyssa Scolari [19:48]: But, what we see is people saying things like, "Oh, I'm really sorry you lost your job, but at least nobody in your family died from COVID. At least you have your health, right? I'm really, really sorry that you've been out of work for so long, but, hey, at least you've been able to spend more time at home," Or, "I'm so sorry that..." Or, a lot of times people don't even say, "I'm so sorry," right? It's like a mom who has three kids and had to work full time, now all of a sudden has three kids at home and has to do virtual schooling with them. "Oh, well, at least you get to spend time with your kids that... Yeah, virtual schooling must be hard, but at least they're home, at least you get to spend time with them, right?" It's that like, "At least this," or, "At least that," and it's so incredibly invalidating. Alyssa Scolari [20:49]: We often see this a lot too with parents. Even before the pandemic, toxic positivity has been a thing for ages, right? We haven't necessarily had a name for it, but it's been a thing for ages, and we see it as even when growing up. "Oh, I'll give you something to cry about. You don't have anything you need to cry about." Oh, I got told all the time, "There's no reason for you to be crying right now. There's absolutely no reason. You should be so grateful. Look at the life that you have. Look at all the great things that you have," and this is toxic positivity, right? "Stop crying. Stop focusing on what's bad. You are being selfish." And some people are even told that they're being selfish, "People have it so much worse than you do, so much worse than you do." Alyssa Scolari [21:36]: Now, again, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I want to be really, really sensitive about this because I know that a lot of folks who are listening to me are parents themselves. And, as parents, it's likely, it's highly likely that you found yourself saying this to your children at one point, possibly. I don't really know. And if you did, please don't beat yourself up. Please don't because toxic positivity has really been a part of parenting styles for ages. Ages, right? It's how I grew up. It's how so many people who are my age grew up. All the people who come into my office, I mean 98% of them, that's how they grew up. Alyssa Scolari [22:22]: They would get upset about something and their parent or guardian would be like, "You have absolutely nothing to cry about. Look at all these other things. Look at all these other things you should be happy about?" Especially when it comes to relationships, like teenagers and relationships, if there's a breakup or something like that, or you get into a fight. You're a teenager and you get into a fight with your boyfriend, girlfriend, and all of a sudden you're sobbing and you're upset because when you're a teenager, when things happen it is truly the end of the world, right? That's just how our brains are wired when we're teenagers. That's just the way that it is. And so many parents often say to teenagers, "Oh, my God, you're going to have so many more relationships. You are going to find the right person." And that's great. Those are really, really kind words to say, right? Alyssa Scolari [23:15]: Toxic positivity, it's not all toxic. It becomes toxic, and I think this is important, toxic positivity becomes toxic when we do not validate the emotions first. When somebody comes to you in a dysregulated state, meaning they are upset, they are sad, they are depressed, they are anxious, jumping right into, "Oh, but look at all the opportunities you have, and look at all the great things that happened to you," is not helpful because you are invalidating their emotional state. You are basically sending the message that it's like, "Please don't feel the way you feel. You don't deserve to feel the way you feel," because of all of these good things that have happened, and that is invalidating. Alyssa Scolari [24:14]: And that kind of chronic... especially if you're a child and you've grown up that, that constant invalidation, depending on the severity and how long it has lasted for, can also lead to PTSD. It leads to anxiety, it leads to depression, but then we also internalize toxic positivity. Because when we get upset about things, that voice that other people have said to us about, "Why can't you just be happy? Why can't you just be grateful?" we start to say that to ourselves. I even struggled with this post-surgery because I was feeling so many emotions, and I have been crying, and then I've been happy, and then I've been relieved, and then I've been frightened again, and I've been anxious, and this, that, and a third. And I often find myself in this narrative of like, "Alyssa, why can't you just be happy? You wanted this surgery, you got the surgery. The endometriosis has been taken out of your body. Just be grateful." And that is toxic positivity, right? Alyssa Scolari [25:26]: It can be a form of gaslighting, right? I'm essentially gaslighting myself. So, it can be very dangerous. It can have long-term effects. Again, this is when it's kind of chronic and done over a long period of time and typically by an adult or caregiver. It can certainly lead to trauma and PTSD, right? Sometimes trauma is about what we didn't get. It's not necessarily about something happening to us. Sometimes trauma can look like an absence of things, an absence of validation of our emotions. And when we have this consistent invalidation of our emotions, I mean, first of all, it only makes us perseverate on the problem more, right? Alyssa Scolari [26:12]: When we sit with somebody through the pain and we validate their pain and what they feel, they are more likely to move through those emotions and get back to a state of regulation. Like their nervous system being regulated much more quickly than when we try to use toxic positivity and you're going just say, "Well, you have to look on the bright side," right? And this also, when it comes to grief, is a huge thing. I find it a lot with grief or with sexual abuse, even specifically childhood sexual abuse. And people will say things, I guess we'll take grief for an example, like a parent who's lost a child, "Well, at least you have those few years with your kid," right? That is a terrible thing to say. And, again, if you've said this, I'm not judging you, I don't think you're a bad person, this is merely a learning opportunity, but it is a bad thing to say because it is so invalidating to their pain. So invalidating. Alyssa Scolari [27:26]: No judgment here. No judgment, no shame. We are learning, right? At one point in my life, I thought that that was the right thing to say. I did not know any better, so I am certainly not above anyone else. I have had my fair share of using toxic positivity and not even knowing I was doing it because it is so deeply ingrained in our society. I think it's worth noting that part of why it's so deeply ingrained in our society is because it gives us an out to have to process the negative feelings, especially when it comes to things like more stigmatized tragedies or issues like sexual abuse or suicide or the death of a child. These are much more stigmatized topics because the emotions that come with them can be so unbearable for people that people often will say these things to give themselves more of a sense of control. Because, truly, there are absolutely no words in the whole wide world that can accurately express sorrow or grief for somebody who has lost a child or been sexually abused or had childhood sexual abuse. There aren't words. Alyssa Scolari [29:03]: And when people acknowledge the pain that comes with those traumas, then they also have to acknowledge that this kind of stuff happens. And that acknowledgement in itself makes us as a society anxious because we are admitting that there are real monsters in this world, and that this world is full of so much pain, and that we don't have nearly as much control over the bad things that happen as we think we do. I hope that that makes sense. It's like people are really quick to jump into toxic positivity as almost as a defense mechanism. Because if I were to sit with you and acknowledge the pain that you feel over the loss of your child, then I would have to feel pain too, and I would have to acknowledge that this world can be a ice cold place, and that's too painful for me to do. Alyssa Scolari [30:02]: Again, it's not an excuse, right? It's something that we as a society have to work on, absolutely. And speaking of working on it, we all can work on it, right? I've had to work on it. Members and my family have worked on it. I've had clients who have to work on it. If you are somebody who gets a lot of toxic positivity from loved ones in your life, if you have this person in your life who you try to go to for a problem, and every time you go to them for a problem, they're like, "We have to just look on the bright side. You have to stop being so negative all the time. All right. Yeah, you lost your job. At least you have your health. At least you're married. At least this..." Whatever it may be, it can be really helpful to have a conversation with that person. Alyssa Scolari [30:57]: Not necessarily in the moment because I find that when people say things like that to me when I'm upset or in a dysregulated state, I tend to get very angry, and whatever's going to come out of my mouth from that moment would not be productive in the slightest. But what I find to be really helpful is trying to get your own nervous system regulated first. If that person's not able to give you what they need and they throw some kind of toxic positivity crap your way, be done, end that conversation and go to someone else or something else that can help you regulate your nervous system and feel better. Take some time. Whether that's hours, days, or months, you need to take some time. But then what I recommend is coming back to that person and saying... And sometimes it can be really hard to speak directly or face to face. So, if you want to write a letter or write down what you want to say beforehand, I've always found those things to be really helpful as well. Alyssa Scolari [32:06]: But go back to this person and say, "Can you understand how in this moment when I was upset and you told me to at least be thankful that I have my health, can you understand how that felt a little bit invalidating for me?" And, if they don't understand, then it's like, "Okay, but this is me telling you that that was really invalidating. And here's what I am looking for in the future from you. What I am looking for is for you to acknowledge the pain that I'm in. I don't necessarily need you to fix it. I don't need you to remind me of the good things in my life that I have. I already know of the good things in my life that I have. That being said, what's really important to me when I come to you when I'm upset is that you validate what I am feeling and just sit with me in those bad feelings." Alyssa Scolari [33:10]: Listen, sometimes you might have to ask this of somebody and they might not be able to give it. Some people are so uncomfortable with negative feelings that they just can't give you what you need, and that's going to be a really difficult thing to process, but we don't know what our loved ones are capable of if we don't ask them. So, if this is somebody in your life that you want to continue a relationship with, I recommend you talking to them and maybe putting it just as I had phrased it. You're not accusing them of anything. You're not coming at them. You're not going for the jugular. You're just simply saying, "This is how it felt," and then you're also letting them know what you expect. I think that that last thing is key, letting them know what you expect in the future. Because for so many people, this toxic positivity is so ingrained in them that they don't know how to empathize or sit with the bad feelings, so it is crucial to tell people what it is that you expect. Alyssa Scolari [34:18]: A lot of times, I think I know, especially for myself, I just want people to be mind readers. I don't feel I should have to tell somebody how to empathize, but the fact of the matter is we do, and it's not fair. It's not fair. So I do want to say that we all, honestly in school, should be taught empathy and mental health and interpersonal relationships and boundary setting should have always been a core part of the curriculum in school, a thousand percent, but that is a whole separate podcast episode. So, yes, unfortunately, we do have to tell people what it is that we are searching for. So, that is the best way to do it, tell people. The other thing is, be mindful of how you are feeling about the content that you are consuming, whether it's on podcasts, whether it is on social media, whether it's the radio, whether it's in a book you're reading. Alyssa Scolari [35:28]: If you are picking up on toxic positivity and you notice yourself starting to feel bad, "Oh, this person's always so happy all the time. Why can't I be happy like that person?" please take some time away. Because so many people market themselves on social media and podcasts, they market their highlight reels, the best part of their lives, they're not likely, many of them, not all, not likely to come onto the internet and talk about how they haven't showered in a week because the depression is so bad. So please try to keep that in mind. Notice how you are feeling. And if you need to take a break from following some people, just tap that unfollow button. It's not personal, right? It is not personal against them. This is about your own self-preservation. You come first. And if it doesn't feel good for you, then it isn't good for you. That doesn't mean it can't be good. Again, it can, you could find yourself in a better head space in six months from now and then go back and follow that person on social media and really enjoy all their good vibes posts. Alyssa Scolari [36:49]: But if it is too triggering or too upsetting for you, give yourself permission to tap that unfollow button, give yourself permission to talk to people and set those boundaries because this world loves toxic positivity, especially in this pandemic, right? "Oh, people don't have money. Oh, right. Inflation. Everything is so expensive. People don't have jobs. People are really suffering. People are still dying, but let's focus on the good," and it drives me bonkers. So, with that being said, I will close this out, hoping that this was helpful. As always, this is always a really interesting one to talk about. And I try to tread very lightly because I do want to be respectful of people, and I don't want to accuse anybody of making content or saying things with the intention of harming people with their toxic positivity. I really don't think that people are aware of it. Alyssa Scolari [37:53]: No blame here. No shame here. We're just talking about it. We're educating each other. We're growing, we're learning. We're making things happen. We're healing, baby. We're healing. That being said, I'm going to hop off. I'm going to go start cooking some amazing food. I'm going to sip some tea. I just bought this tea called blueberry crumb cake. Woo, it is chef's kiss. I'm going to sip some. I'm going to watch the snow. I'm going to be snuggling with my puppies and making the most out of this Sunday. I am holding you all in the light. I love you all so much. Alyssa Scolari [38:31]: If you have not left a review for the podcast yet, please do so. It would mean the whole world. If you are looking to support this podcast, that would be amazing as well, support the podcast financially. Anything you're able to give would be great. Please head on over to the show notes where there is a link to the Patreon where you can give as little or as much as you would to the podcast. It would be a huge help. Thank you very much. I love you all. If you can't give, that's fine too. I love you either way. Take great care, everybody. I'll be back again next week. Bye-bye. Alyssa Scolari [39:11]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma, and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. To support our show, we are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks, so please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you, and we appreciate your support.

Imposter syndrome is the overwhelming feeling that we are phony or fraudulent in different areas of our lives. This psychological phenomenon causes us to attribute our successes or achievements to external circumstances rather than internal (i.e. “I only got a raise because my cousin is the boss”, “I only got an A on that test because the teacher likes me”). Imposter syndrome not only deprives us of self-love and validation, but it also stops us from having the confidence to achieve our future goals and dreams. Tune in to learn about ways to combat imposter syndrome! Source Material Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Support the Podcast via Patreon Transcript: Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. We are back at it again, only this week is extra special. This is my first episode that I am recording post-surgery. So, I'm actually really happy because it's been a while since I've recorded anything. I had surgery, as many of you know, on January 27th for endometriosis and, before my surgery, a couple months ago, I did an episode talking about my battle with endometriosis or maybe it was a couple of weeks ago. Couple weeks, couple months, a month, whatever but I had done an episode where I was explaining what I have been going through. Alyssa Scolari [01:12]: So, if you missed that episode, go check it out so that you are all caught up. And, I finally had my surgery, which is really exciting, I am recovering. I have been really trying to be intentional about not rushing my healing and yeah, it's been good. I am going to do an episode updating everybody in more detail about what happened with the surgery, what they found, how my recovery was. I have a post op appointment with my surgeon on Friday, so I will have a little bit more information then and then I will be more healed and I will be in a better place to record an episode about that. I just wanted to give myself a few weeks to heal because it was both physically and emotionally draining. Alyssa Scolari [02:12]: So, that said, it's been a really interesting week for me as I've been, really, just embracing the stillness and I've had a lot of time to think about the podcast and the direction the podcast is going. And I also had the pleasure of receiving an incredible email from a very dear listener, you know who you are. I was actually really having a bad day in my recovery, I was in a lot of pain and I was, I think, bored out of my mind. I don't know if I was bored or depressed, honestly, maybe a little bit of both because I think that having that surgery just brought up a lot of things for me. Alyssa Scolari [03:01]: And so, I think I was definitely struggling with some depression, I was moping around the house and I was wishing that I could just get back to my life already. And, all of a sudden, I see this email pop through or this email came through of somebody who became a patron for the podcast which is so, so exciting, thank you so, so much. Having patrons makes this whole process so much easier and it allows me to do so much more because I'm having some type of funding for the podcast because everything right now, with the exception of the patrons, we do out of pocket so it's very expensive. Alyssa Scolari [03:42]: I know, as I mentioned in the past and I'm not complaining, I am more than happy to be able to provide a free mental health resource to people out there who might, otherwise, not be able to afford mental health support but, sometimes, it can become a lot. So, having people who are able to support the podcast and give in whatever way that they can is so, so helpful and so exciting and it's such an honor because I understand, especially in today's world, with inflation being through the freaking roof, life is expensive, things are expensive, people are out of work because people are getting COVID so things are really, really hard. So, the fact that people would choose to donate any amount of money to the podcast is just extremely humbling for me and extremely encouraging and inspiring. Alyssa Scolari [04:44]: I don't always get to interact with the people who listen to this podcast so I feel like I have a ton of friends, I know I have a ton of friends who are listening and who are supporting me but I don't always hear from all of you which is fine, there's no obligation to reach out to me but it is always special when people do and when people are able to give. It's so validating that what I'm doing is actually helping people. So, I digress. This person, she became a patron for the podcast and then she, which by the way, if you're not familiar with Patreon, you can go over into the show notes and find it. It's basically just the site where people are able to donate however much money, either on a monthly basis or a one-time thing, to the podcast or, really, content creators of any kind. Alyssa Scolari [05:43]: So, this person then proceeded to send me an email and, in this beautifully written email, she had said that my podcast had helped her so much through her trauma recovery process to the point where she would often listen to this podcast when she would go to sleep at night and many of us trauma survivors know how difficult the nighttime can be. And she had said that she actually is now thinking of going back to school and is applying to schools to get her master's degree in social work so that she can go on to help other people. And it was this incredibly humbling email and I read it and I started to cry. And, my husband read it, and then he started to cry. And also, side note, at the end of that email, she told me to not rush my healing which I also really needed to hear because I was definitely trying to rush my healing. Alyssa Scolari [06:47]: But after reading that my husband, David, was like, "I'm really, really proud of you. Look at the impact that you are able to have on other people." And I remember thinking, I wonder if she has the wrong person, at first. My initial reaction was like, "Maybe she emailed the wrong person. Maybe she meant to email another podcaster." Obviously, I know that that's not the case, she very specifically was emailing me. But at the time, I was just like, "No, she can't be. She can't be talking about me." And so, that brings me to the topic of today's episode, honestly. So, thank you to that listener who sent me that email because you have inspired today's episode which is all about impostor syndrome and you also have made me feel so loved and I really, really appreciate that. Alyssa Scolari [07:56]: So, we're talking about impostor syndrome today which I know so many of us struggle with and I struggle with it, too. I don't think that I struggle with it as much anymore, I definitely used to be much, much worse with it but, over time, I've definitely gotten much better with it. And impostor syndrome, it's not a psychological disorder, so to speak, it's not a mental health condition, so to speak. You're not going to find impostor syndrome listed in the DSM which is, basically, the book of psychological disorders but it still is a psychological phenomenon. And, basically, at its simplest, impostor syndrome is that feeling that you're a phony or a fraud or feeling like the only reason that you have the success that you have or the good fortune that you have is because of some external circumstance or some temporary thing. Alyssa Scolari [09:08]: Well, I basically only won this race because I had more time to train than someone else or, basically, I only got a raise because I've been here longer than anyone else. It's like we're always attributing a good thing to some external or temporary source rather than internal, rather than believing that we have this good fortune or this success because of who we are and because of our hard work. And, again, because of who we are, we are always deflecting. No, it's definitely because of something else. It can't possibly be because of me because I'm simply not good enough. Alyssa Scolari [09:59]: Now, as with most other mental health terms, impostor syndrome gets thrown around a lot and people make light of it but it actually can be quite debilitating. And just as an FYI, some of the information that I'm going to be sharing with you today, some is from just my own professional experience and personal experience with impostor syndrome but, the other information that I'm going to be sharing is from an article written by Valerie Young. And Valerie Young, basically, is this leading expert on impostor syndrome. She's given it a TED talk, she has been really the expert in this area, been doing work in the area of impostor syndrome since the 1980s. So, I am, of course, going to link that article in the show notes so you can feel free to go and check it out. But basically, it can be very, very debilitating and there's definitely some controversy on impostor syndrome which we'll get into. Alyssa Scolari [11:00]: But impostor syndrome, at least for me, is something that, I realize, stood in the way of my success for a while, honestly. And I'm talking about success in my career, I'm talking about success in my relationship building, success in my love life, my friendships, my ability to set boundaries, everything. So, again, while we as a society, I think, really like to make light of what impostor syndrome is, it's really a big, freaking deal, to be honest. Alyssa Scolari [11:44]: So, again, as I said, it is this idea that any success that we have really can't be attributed to us as individuals and has to be attributed to some other external source. Now, this syndrome does affect both men and women and especially affects members in the non-binary community, LGBTQAI plus community. It tends to affect people in the LGBTQIA plus community and women, the female community more than men and there are some pretty obvious reasons which we'll touch on a little bit. Alyssa Scolari [12:31]: But impostor syndrome does one of two things that are really, really debilitating. So, first, what it does is it tells you that your success has nothing to do with you personally. But then, where it becomes even more debilitating is that it tells you that because none of the success that you have had in your life so far is a result of you, that you are not going to be successful or be able to achieve your goals in the future and, therefore, stops you from pushing yourself to see what your potential is. This may look like you turning down a date if somebody asks you to go on a date because you are automatically assuming that it's going to be a failure. Alyssa Scolari [13:34]: This might look like you not seizing a career opportunity that comes your way, this might look like you never following through with your dream to go to Fiji, to travel the world one day because you don't believe that you have what it takes. This might look like you never trying or truly applying yourself in school because you have this fundamental belief, this core belief that you're never going to be good enough or smart enough as the people around you, therefore, you're not going to apply yourself because you are less than. Alyssa Scolari [14:13]: It shows up in our lives in so many ways and it does affect both children and adults. Children might not necessarily have words to be able to put to the impostor syndrome but they have it nonetheless. Now, impostor syndrome and trauma often go hand in hand. Hence, why we are talking about this on the Light After Trauma podcast. People who have been traumatized, specifically folks who have complex PTSD which, if you're unfamiliar on the differences between standard PTSD and complex PTSD, please go back to the beginning of the podcast. I think episode, maybe, one or two or three, we really talked about the differences. Alyssa Scolari [15:04]: I believe it's episode two on the podcast, we break down exactly what complex trauma is. And specifically for folks who have complex PTSD, we have endured an extensive amount of trauma and the neural pathways in our brains have been altered to believe that everything bad is our fault that, if good things happen, they are not going to last. Good things are very, very scary to us and we never attribute good things happening to us, we have to attribute it to some outside source. Alyssa Scolari [15:41]: So, those are some of the ways in which impostor syndrome can show up. For me, again, definitely affected me in all areas of my life. I think, certainly, with dating, I noticed this pattern of myself where I got to a point where I started to date men of a certain kind and not the healthy kind. And, if I were to go on a date with a man who actually was healthy and I could see myself getting into a relationship with, I was physically and emotionally unattracted to that person and I was actually quite scared of them. I felt much more familiar on men who were pretty dangerous. Alyssa Scolari [16:35]: I was very, very scared of men who are safe and I believed that it was because they were trying to trick me, honestly. I think I just had this belief that good men, decent human beings couldn't want me. And, if they did want me, there had to be some external reason because I'm not a good person. Even though I might be coming off as a good person and a good partner and a good girlfriend, fundamentally, I'm not and everybody around me can see that, they can see that I'm a phony, they can see that I'm a fraud. Alyssa Scolari [17:19]: So, if there is a good man out there who was attracted to me, well, he must be a phony and a fraud as well and he must have some ulterior motive for why he's being good to me and, therefore, I don't want him. A twisted way of thinking, definitely maybe hard to follow but it made sense in my head and I would bet that there's at least one person out there who's listening to this that's like, "Oh, yeah, no, that totally makes sense in my head, too." And there was a very similar pattern with my friends, really. Alyssa Scolari [17:50]: I did the same thing with friendships which is why I didn't always have the best friendships and, as a result, I don't really have many friends to this day which I think I'm okay with because I just prefer to have smaller groups. A lot of my husband's friends have become really close friends to me and they're really amazing people but, I think, growing up, I just attracted people who weren't the best of friends because that's just what felt safer to me in some twisted way. Alyssa Scolari [18:25]: I felt like really good people could see right through me and could see that I was just a phony and a fraud. And, I think that with school, I have a bit more confidence with school, I was very successful in school always. I was at the top of my class, graduated the top of my class, was a straight A student and here's the thing about that, though, is that I ... I'm not bragging. I hate saying this because it sounds like I'm bragging but I'm not. I never had to study, never. The only times I ever really had to study were with subjects like math and maybe some sciences like physics and chemistry, not so much biology. But for the most part, even in my master's program, I never had to study, I barely read the textbooks and I was a straight A student. And I had the hardest time admitting that I was ... Am, I just said was right because I'm separating my past person from my present person. No, it's all the same me. Alyssa Scolari [19:42]: I had and still have a very difficult time admitting that I am an extremely intelligent woman. It's even very hard for those four words to leave my mouth as I'm talking on this podcast. All these fears are coming up for me that's like, "Oh, God, people are going to think you're so stuck up." But I'm trying to move through those fears and, the fact of the matter is, I am a very intelligent person. I have been blessed with lots of intelligence and I'm very grateful for that. But I have always had a very hard time allowing myself to just be very, very smart. Alyssa Scolari [20:29]: I have always had to find an excuse. In fact, I used to convince myself like, "Oh, I must have cheated a lot in high school. I must have cheated a lot in college." I did not cheat. How does one cheat in college or grad school? How do I cheat in grad school? I absolutely did not, absolutely didn't but, in my brain, I've always have some other external reason for why I had so much success. I even graduated the top of my cohort in grad school. Alyssa Scolari [21:04]: My cohort, the people that I was in my program with actually used to make fun of me all the time. I was the odd person out because I didn't have to try as much as they did. Now, I'm going to stop talking about that because it actually really makes me uncomfortable to say it because I feel like I'm bragging. I promise you I'm not, I'm just trying to state the facts here and I'm trying to let myself have a moment where I can compliment myself, I can state a fact about myself that's good and just let it be good without needing a reason that isn't about me. I hope this is making sense to you all. Alyssa Scolari [21:46]: Impostor syndrome has also shown up in my career. Starting my own business, I will never forget, pretty much, what the days were like when I first started my own business. It was so scary for me and, as successful as I was right off the bat, my business, my private practice was so successful right off the bat and I felt so guilty because most people who start their own business struggle and struggle for years and years and years especially because I opened up my own business, what? Maybe seven months before the pandemic and it was a nightmare for so many small business owners but I had been doing so well and I could not accept that, my brain could not tolerate that. Alyssa Scolari [22:44]: I had to keep telling myself and one of the things I would say is, "The only reason I'm successful is because I had already built up a good reputation by working for the police department before I opened up my private practice." So, that's the only reason why I was successful and it's, A, that's not the only reason and, B, even if it was the only reason, why isn't that still good enough? Yes, I did build a good reputation for myself because I'm very good at what I do. Why can't that just be enough? Why do I always have to negate my successes and my positive characteristics? Alyssa Scolari [23:36]: Again, I know so many of you can relate. Now, as I've said, I have gotten so much better with the impostor syndrome over the years. I have really been able to tackle this, I actually consider myself these days to be somebody who has moderate amount of confidence. I consider myself to be a pretty competent person, not competent in all areas and, occasionally, my impostor syndrome does come roaring back. Alyssa Scolari [24:06]: It turns out my impostor syndrome has been playing a rather large role in this podcast and I don't think I really realized it until the person who I had talked about earlier who became a new patron for the podcast and sent me that beautiful email. I don't think I realized that impostor syndrome had such a hold on me until I got that email because what that email did is it made me realize that I am making a difference in people's lives and it caused me to go back and look at the data on all of the podcast episodes that I have done so far. And by data I mean I'm looking at all the downloads, I'm looking at all the areas of the world in which I've received downloads, I'm looking at how many downloads each episode has, I'm looking at how my downloads have increased from the very start of this podcast in August of 2020 to where we are now in February of 2022. Alyssa Scolari [25:12]: And the data is undeniable and is telling me something that is a little bit hard for me to grapple with because of impostor syndrome, which is, you all really love my solo or individual episodes way, way more than most of the guest episodes. And, when this podcast started, it was pretty much all guest episodes with a little bit of me doing an individual episode here and there but I didn't really want to have anybody listen to me yammer on and on and on. Alyssa Scolari [25:58]: So, I was like, "Oh, I'll have all these guests on," but, over the last, I don't know, what? Few months or so, really, I have started doing more and more individual episodes and I have become much pickier about the guests that come on my show. And I am very intentional about who comes on my show and I'm also very intentional about what I talk about on the show and I have forced myself, not forced, but I have pushed myself to be more and more vulnerable on this podcast and share more of my own personal battle with trauma and health issues and everything. Alyssa Scolari [26:46]: In a way, this podcast has really become a very safe space for me to share some of what I've gone through in the hopes that it can help those who are listening. And, again, the data does not lie. You all really like these individual episodes and, when I get emails from people, these are emails of people that are talking about these individual episodes where you are all relating to things that I am sharing. And, I've seen this trend for a while but I think, subconsciously, my impostor syndrome has kicked in and I've really told myself like, "Oh, people don't really want to hear me talk. People really don't want to hear what I have to say and who am I to be on here talking about this stuff. I'm nobody." But the fact of the matter is, is I am somebody and I have a lot of training in this, both professional training and, honestly, personal training. And I've watched my loved ones deal with this and I've seen hundreds of clients and I've worked in all different settings. Alyssa Scolari [27:57]: I've worked in one of the most dangerous cities in the entire country and that was my very first job out of school. I was working in one of the most dangerous cities in the country, I was working with child gang members so I have a lot of experience doing this. And I think that it really wasn't until I got that email this week or last week that I realized it's time for me to really continue to be who I am and show it unapologetically on this podcast and stop questioning whether or not people want to hear me because the downloads don't lie. Alyssa Scolari [28:43]: And you all don't lie who have reached out to me and told me how much these individual episodes or these solo episodes where it's just me talking have helped you. Now, don't get me wrong, some of the guest episodes have been absolutely wonderful and I've gotten great feedback but this podcast has just had a very different feel to it since I've started doing these individual episodes where it's just me talking. Alyssa Scolari [29:07]: So, I just wanted to say thank you all very much for the feedback and thank you for helping to pull me out of my own impostor syndrome because I am now going to be doing more and more of these solo episodes and I'm going to be even more strategic when it comes to deciding which guests I'm going to bring on, so thank you all so much for your feedback. And so, moving on to talk a little bit more about what we can do about impostor syndrome because so many of us struggle with this but what do we do about it? Well, in this article that I had referenced earlier, Valerie Young, the leading expert on impostor syndrome has a couple of tips on things that we can do. Alyssa Scolari [29:52]: And the first thing that she recommends is, something that I always recommend, breaking the silence. Let's start speaking about it because with impostor syndrome comes a lot of shame and shame and guilt really start to lose their power when we start talking about it. So, when you are noticing these feelings of impostor syndrome, speak out about it just like I'm doing today here on the podcast with you all. Alyssa Scolari [30:21]: Next, she recommends separating feelings from facts which I find always very, very helpful. When you are in your head about impostor syndrome and feeling like you're not worthy of the praise or success that you've had, I find that it's so helpful to be your own detective and sit down, take out a piece of paper or pull up a Word document on the computer and separate your feelings from facts. What are the facts about your success? And, based on the facts about your success, what conclusion can you draw? Because if you start writing down a list of facts about your success, I can almost guarantee you that the only conclusion that you can draw is that the success that you've had is a result of who you are internally, not some other external source. Alyssa Scolari [31:15]: Next is she talks about recognizing when you should feel fraudulent. This one is a little bit iffy to me. I think that it's the wording of this that throws me off because what she's really talking about is there are times where you can recognize and acknowledge that it's okay to feel fraudulent. For example, let's take people who have disabilities. Let's say somebody becomes an advocate, somebody who has a disability becomes an advocate or a speaker or a writer or rises to fame, you're a TikTok star, whatever you are and you speak out for people with disabilities. Well, sometimes impostor syndrome can come up in the sense that you're not going to be able to speak for everybody. Even though you represent a group of people who have been stereotyped and discriminated against, you still can't speak for everybody. Alyssa Scolari [32:22]: And, in that case, you're not being fraudulent, it's just important to acknowledge that you cannot speak for everybody. For me, yes, I do have training in this area and I do have professional and personal expertise but I'm never going to sit here and say that I speak for all trauma survivors, all sexual abuse survivors, all domestic violence survivors because that really would be fraudulent. I have no idea what it's like to be in other people's shoes. So, I'm speaking, really, from me and from my experiences and education. I hope that that makes sense and is not offensive because I could see how it can be a little offensive but I hope me explaining that helps you to understand what that means. Alyssa Scolari [33:15]: Now, she also recommends accentuating the positive which is, again, exactly as it sounds, focusing on the positive. This is really, really hard. It's nice, this is a nice suggestion but it takes a lot of hard work. It sounds much simpler than it is because we are so prone, especially as trauma survivors, to perseverate on the negative. So, what she's trying to say here, and I think that this goes back to separating feelings from facts, which is let's put more of our energy and focus in on the positive instead of all the things that went wrong, whether it's in a relationship, in a career move, whatever it may be. I think this one can be useful sometimes and not useful in other times. For those of us who are perfectionists, and I'm definitely one of them, I think that this is helpful because, again, I tend to focus on all the things that weren't good enough. So, I think take this one for what it is, really, and how it may or may not fit for you. Alyssa Scolari [34:28]: The next one is developing a healthy response to failure and mistake making. Again, I feel like so many of these are really similar which is really grappling with this idea of what does failure mean to you and how can we depersonalize failure? Meaning shifting from thinking that failure is this mark or this symbol that we are not good enough as humans rather than seeing failure as simply an opportunity to learn and to continue to move forward. Easier said than done, I think a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy helps a lot with that. And then, again, right along the lines with CBT, she talks about writing the rules and developing a new script which, basically, is what are the rules that you're telling yourself in your head? Alyssa Scolari [35:26]: If you have this motto and this narrative in your head of I'm never allowed to ask for help or I always have to know the answer to everything that somebody asks me about this subject. Well, are these rules that are going to set you up for success? Or, are these rules that are actually going to set you up to even further increase your impostor syndrome because these are impossible rules. So, let's start developing a new script which is, yes, I'm considered an expert in this area but that doesn't mean I know everything and it's okay to say I don't know. That rule is a lot more forgiving and more realistic than this narrative in our head that we're just supposed to know how to do everything in life. Alyssa Scolari [36:15]: Rewarding yourself, she recommends which is, again, validating yourself, being really kind to yourself, giving yourself a pat on the back for the things that you've done, visualizing your success. She talks about meditating which I think is really helpful. I think, sometimes, it's a little abstract for trauma survivors. I think, sometimes, we need more hands on stuff but I do think that visualization exercises can be really, really good and I shouldn't say that it's too abstract for trauma survivors but I think it depends on where you're at in your journey. Alyssa Scolari [36:55]: Maybe, sometimes, you can sit there and you can meditate and you can visualize yourself being successful and see what that feels like and work through those feelings but, sometimes our nervous systems are just too dysregulated and we can't do that and, if you can't, that's okay. In that case, I would go back to just writing down your successes, writing things down and even writing down how you're going to rewrite your roles, develop a new script, a new narrative for yourself, things like that. Alyssa Scolari [37:27]: And then the last one she talks about is fake it till you make it. Now, I really hate that phrase and she even admits in this article that that's very outdated. So, what that means, basically, we're not going to say fake it till you make it, what that means is continue to push yourself. Your impostor syndrome, talk about it, work through it, write things down but do not let it keep you from doing the things that you really want to do in life. Continue to put yourself out there, continue to do these things. Alyssa Scolari [38:04]: I'm a little bit worried every time I sit down to record but I am still continuing to put myself out there knowing that, you know what, I am going to be wrong at some point, I'm sure I've been wrong in the ... No, I'm not sure, I've definitely been wrong in the past about many, many things, I'm going to continue to be wrong in the future. People are going to call me out for it, I'm going to learn from it and I'm going to realize that my failure or my wrongdoing or my mistakes is not a result of me being a horrible human being but, rather, it's just part of me being a human being. Alyssa Scolari [38:42]: So, that's what that means. Continue to put yourself out there because one of the only ways to continue to combat impostor syndrome is to continue to build your confidence. So, I hope that that was helpful. Again, some of those tips I love and I think are really, really helpful, others not so much but I am going to link this article where she provides those tips in the show notes. Again, just take it with a grain of salt, remember that not every recommendation is going to work for everybody. Also, remember that recovering from impostor syndrome takes time. It takes changing the neural pathways in your brain and that's not something that happens overnight. So, try some of these things out, see what works for you and thank you all for listening. Alyssa Scolari [39:41]: If you like what you hear on the podcast, please be sure to go and give it a rating or a review. Ratings and reviews help so much for the podcast to grow and that is something that is really important because, the more the podcast grows, the more people can get free access to mental health education which is so important and so needed by everybody in the world. And we also have a Patreon, if you are able to financially support the podcast in any way, shape or form, that would be so appreciated. You can also find the link to that in the show notes and thank you all very much for listening. Hope this was helpful. I will be holding you all in the light and have a wonderful week. Alyssa Scolari [40:29]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show, we are asking for $5 a month which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So, please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

Did you know that the birth control pill can lead to clitoral shrinkage? Or that it can physically change your feelings of attraction to someone? Millions of people with female reproductive organs have been told by doctors to start taking birth control – whether it's for pregnancy prevention, period cramps, or sometimes even acne. However, very few people are ever informed of the extensive side effects that come with taking this small pill. On this week's episode we are joined by Julia Abbiss, the Impact and Associate Producer of The Business of Birth Control, a documentary that examines the complex relationship between hormonal birth control and women's health and liberation. Julia shares the lesser talked about side effects of birth control and how it relates to the much larger issue of women's wellness and reproductive rights. The Business of Birth Control will be airing for FREE beginning Friday, February 4th, 2022 until Sunday February 6th, 2022. Whether you have been on birth control, know someone on birth control, or serve as an ally for women's health and reproductive rights, this film is hugely important and you can see it this weekend for FREE! Click here to watch! For more information, follow The Business of Birth Control on Instagram and Facebook, @businessofbirthcontrol. You can also check The Business of Birth Control on the web at: https://www.thebusinessof.life/the-business-of-birth-control   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Support the Podcast via Patreon   Transcript Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hi friends. Welcome back to another kick ass episode of The Light After Trauma Podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari. And I know I say this every week, but I'm going to say it again. I am so fucking excited for today's episode. Like extra, extra, extra excited. This is a guest episode and we have a very special guest with us today. And we are talking about one of my favorite topics of all time. So obviously you all know that I have been having lots of health issues lately, and you are all aware that I ... Well, at the time of recording, today is January 21st. And my surgery is on January 27th for suspected endometriosis. And by the time this comes out, it'll be about five days after my surgery. And you all know that I have had quite the struggle with going to doctor after doctor to try to get some answers for what I've been going through. I have had years of excruciatingly, painful period cramps. And when I was 19 years old, I was put on birth control and basically told that that was something I'd have to be on for the rest of my life in order to manage my cramps. And the birth control caused so many issues in my body. And I'm still trying to recover from the health issues that I have. Now, I didn't realize that so many of my health issues were connected to the birth control that I was taking. Actually, I didn't find that out until this year. And part of who helped me to find that out is our very special guest speaker today. Her name is Julia Abbiss. I got that right, right Julia? Julia Abbiss [02:31]: You did. Good job. Alyssa Scolari [02:32]: I fucking nailed it. Yes. So Julia is the impact and associate producer of The Business of Birth Control, which is an upcoming documentary. It examines the complex relationship between hormonal birth control and women's health and liberation. Now, Julia is absolutely so much more than that. And I actually know Julia-ish. So like basically episode 27, which was a long time ago. If you have not listened to that episode, it is with Urvashi Banerjea on I believe the title is Cultural Whiplash. As many of you know, Urvashi, I met in 2010, our very first day of college and Urvashi has been one of my best friends and Urvashi is also best friends with Julia, and Julia and I absolutely because our friend Urvashi loves to have these like every single year for her birthday, she throws these like elaborate birthday parties, like Urvashi celebrates herself so hard, which is one of the many things we love about her. And I swear that Julie and I had to have hung out at some point, although neither of us can remember. But regardless we have become connected through Urvashi and through this documentary called The Business of Birth Control. Urvashi had been telling me a lot about it. She told me to watch it and I watched it and it brought me to tears. Happy tears, sad tears, tears of relief and validation. And we are here to talk about it today. And I know I'm blabbing a lot, so I'm going to turn this over to Julia in a second. But before we get started, I do want to say this. Everybody is different. Everybody's body works differently. And some people, their lives have been changed for the better on birth control. And that's okay. So we are not here today to tell you that what you're doing is wrong or horrible if that is what works for you. However, what we're here to do today is talk about the ways in which people with female reproductive rights might not be made aware of when it comes to taking birth control. That is the goal here today. It is not to shame you or make you feel bad for what you are or aren't taking. We are just trying to spread awareness in topics where honestly, there isn't a whole lot of advocacy, support or awareness. So with that being said, I know that was a hell of a long introduction. So I'm going to turn it over to Julia. Hello and thank you for being here today. Julia Abbiss [05:19]: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. And it's great to ... I don't know. I'm going to say meet you even though I'm sure we crossed paths at one of the 72 hour birthday celebrations. Alyssa Scolari [05:34]: No, literally. No, literally, I'm sure. Julia Abbiss [05:38]: But I really appreciate that disclaimer, because one thing we want the takeaway to be is that this documentary, this movement is all about informed consent and promoting body literacy. The more that we know about our bodies, the more we know about our cycles and our functioning, the more that we can advocate for ourselves in our doctor's offices, as well as our bedrooms and every other place that we inhabit. So I appreciate that. Alyssa Scolari [06:05]: Yeah, no absolutely. And we know that women in this world are not treated nearly as well or are not nearly as informed as men are. And so much of this documentary I think is also about that as well. And I guess I'm getting a little ahead of myself. So let me back up for a minute and just say like, so can you elaborate on like what your role is in this documentary and why you're so passionate about this? Julia Abbiss [06:42]: Sure. So I am the impact and associate producer, like you mentioned. Impact production is essentially growing the grassroots space around the film. So I work on our communications, on our events and getting partners just to make sure that we can reach as many people as possible on college campuses, high school campuses, and really anywhere where women and gender nonconforming people are. The beautiful thing about streaming online is that it can reach everyone everywhere. So just essentially working to make that happen. But I got involved in this project about three years ago. What started as a little communication contract evolved into an impact production role, which I'm so grateful and honored to be in. I was actually never on hormonal birth control. My mom had a adverse reaction to it back in the 80s and essentially scared me. So it was one of those, my mom's British. So she's like, "You are not going on those birth control pills." [inaudible 00:07:48] with barrier methods. And I've recently been introduced to the FAM method, or just FAM, which is fertility awareness method, which we can talk about later. So yeah, I came into this of an understanding of some of the side effects that can happen, which have come to find that women really are not informed. And truly the only reason I know about it is because of my mother. When I think back to reproductive health education in high school is poor, just very ... Alyssa Scolari [08:18]: To say the least. Julia Abbiss [08:19]: Yeah. I mean, and it just sounds like your only option is to go on the pill. I remember feeling shame that I wasn't on it, feeling pressure from my boyfriend at the time to be on it. And yeah, just not really wanting to talk to anyone because girls would be like, "Oh, have to take my pill." And I'm like ... So kind of that second guessing of like, oh my gosh, like, should I be on it? Like I'm a feminist. Like this is advancing women's liberation, women's rights. But in the back of my head, just knowing, like, I don't think I want to risk all these different side effects, whether it's my mood, whether it's physical, but really what I'm most excited for ... The impact of this film to me is just to act as a great validator for women and GNC folks who have been continuously gas lit by their doctor, by their partners, by their friend and family, to just say like, hey, these are side effects that you might not have known could even come from the pill or whatever hormonal contraceptive that they're on. So I think it's going to be pretty powerful. I'm a little scared for the backlash of it for people who don't watch it and make assumptions. But yeah, we'll see what happens. Alyssa Scolari [09:38]: And this film aired at the New York Film Festival. Julia Abbiss [09:44]: At DOC NYC. Yes. And it was so incredible because we had an in person screening, which thankfully we snuck in during a low COVID time. But I know it was so nice to be in person and to actually hear the audience take. When you're in the background, just watching all of these rough cuts, you're like, I think this is good but not really knowing because you're so steeped in it, what the actual response will be. But you heard people sniffling when it got really emotional, you heard them laugh at different points that are just so outrageous that they're funny. Alyssa Scolari [10:24]: Right. That you have to laugh, you have to laugh. Julia Abbiss [10:27]: Yeah. But you could really hear a pin drop. I mean, it was just this moment of like everyone in the audience is really absorbing it and taking it in. And what was incredible was afterwards, we were able to have it streaming on the DOC NYC platform for two weeks. And every single day we were top 10 most streamed film and the largest documentary festival in the country. So it just acted as a validator or for us that people want this information. Alyssa Scolari [11:01]: Yes. Julia Abbiss [11:01]: And it's so needed and you have one woman who watches it who's going to tell five of her friends who tell five of their friends and it speaks to feminist grassroots building at its core. Alyssa Scolari [11:17]: Oh it absolutely does. It absolutely does. And I know, I mean just the gaslighting when it comes to like being put on this pill. And gaslighting that I think so many of us didn't even know was gaslighting. I wasn't even aware of ... I knew that I was being written off by doctors, but I wasn't even aware of how much I was being written off by doctors until I watched this documentary a couple of months ago. And I recall sitting in ... This had to be back in September. I came off of birth control like several years ago when I was really in the thick of my battle with PTSD. I was seeing this psychiatrist who, and at this point I had been on birth control for probably like seven years like at this point. And my psychiatrist at the time was like, "Hey, I know that you're experiencing like a ton of anger and like a lot of depression and like thoughts of self harm." And she was like, "Why don't we try coming off of the birth control and seeing how that changes your mood?" And I was like, "What? Like, what are you talking about?" Julia Abbiss [12:39]: Yep. Alyssa Scolari [12:40]: And like, what was I? Like 26? That was the first time I had ever heard a doctor say that some of my mental health symptoms could have been the birth control. And I had been battling for years with rage, with crippling depression, like an anger that I cannot even put into words, anger doesn't do it justice. It is this surging rage that was pulsing through my veins. And when my doctor suggested coming off, like I was like, I can't do that. Like I can't do that. I have really bad cramps. And she was like, "Well, why don't we see what's going on underneath the birth control with the bad cramps and see if we can try to manage it some other way?" Low and behold, I came off the birth control and my cramps became significantly worse and that's because I've had endometriosis and probably have had endometriosis for years. And I probably wouldn't be as sick as I am right now if it weren't for that birth control just kind of putting a bandaid on it for a decade. But I remember a few months ago going to a doctor before I even suspected I had endometriosis and I was telling her how bad my cramps are. And this was an OB-GYN. And she was like, "Well, why don't you go on the pill?" And I was like, "No, I was a monster on the pill. I was not myself." And I had tried several different verse of the pill and she was like, "Well, that's kind of your only option." And I was like, "But the birth control pill does X, Y, and Z to me." She literally looked at me and she went, "No it doesn't. Where'd you get that from?" And I was like, "My own experiences." And she was like, "Well, it's either that or suffer" is literally what she said to me. Julia Abbiss [14:44]: It's so unjust. I'm so sorry that happened. But I can't tell you how many stories I've heard at this point that are exactly the same. It's so interesting. We were on Clubhouse for a time and any kind of live stream event that we host that has a Q&A. I mean, they could run themselves essentially, but like we were on a Clubhouse for three and a half hours because you just had woman after woman coming on saying, "This is what I've experienced. I know that this isn't myself. No one's listening to me. It's making my other symptoms worse. It's acting as a panacea when I know that they're just festering underneath. Just because I can't feel it, doesn't mean it's not there." And just on the mood part, it's so fascinating. And we've talked about this, but Dr. Sarah E. Hill, she has a book called This Is Your Brain On Birth Control and she's in our film. And she just goes into all of these mental health side effects that no one warns you about. And none of the mental health practitioners are really aware of, it seems. If you're dealing with girls who are adolescent through, let's say mid 30s who are experiencing depression or just any type of mood symptom. One of the first questions that should be asked is are you on birth control? Alyssa Scolari [16:12]: Yes. Julia Abbiss [16:14]: Let's eliminate some things. There's this great quote in the film from a journalist who kind of blew the cover off of birth control in England. And she has this great line where she's like, "Once I got off of it, I realized that every emotion that I felt was my own." And it doesn't matter how many times I watch it. It just gives me goosebumps. Alyssa Scolari [16:42]: Oh yes. Yes. I was sitting at my kitchen table when I watched that and I was not prepared for the emotional toll that it would have on me. Feeling like the first time I'm in my life, but I was not alone in what I felt from that pill. Like it was hugely validating. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about some of the side effects because 9 times out of 10, when women are given birth control, they are not told any side effects. And quite honestly, one of the side effects that people talk about the most and are the most worried about is weight gain. And that is the least important side effect. Like first of all, it's water, weight, birth control, there are really like no studies that show, I think to my knowledge, that birth control directly contributes to your body storing more fat in your body. So yeah, all we really hear about birth control is, "Oh, I don't want to gain weight. Oh, I don't want to gain weight. I don't want to gain weight," which is more of an issue about the fat phobia that lives in society. Julia Abbiss [18:01]: That's another documentary we'll get into, yeah. Alyssa Scolari [18:04]: Right. That's another documentary, but I'm wondering like, would you be able to talk about some of the different side effects that the documentary sheds light on for birth control? Julia Abbiss [18:15]: Absolutely. So I would break it up into physical, emotional, and relational. So I'll start with relational, which is kind of the most shocking is that hormonal birth control can affect your pheromones. So essentially who you're attracted to. And there's this study that's done that we show in the film about the smell test. So you see women smelling, they're like a row of sweaty t-shirts. And whichever one that they're attracted to the most is the partner that they should be with. And it goes down into like a lot of biological things that I can't get into because frankly it's not my area of expertise. But it's fascinating that women have reported that who they're attracted to while they're on the pill is different from when they're off the pill. So I'll leave your listeners ... Alyssa Scolari [19:10]: Wow. Julia Abbiss [19:12]: I'll leave a minute for everyone to just side eye their partner quickly, but that's really just kind of the most fascinating one. Yeah. Then there's physical. And so in terms of physical, one of the most shocking ones for me to learn about was Clitoral shrinkage. So your clitoris can actually shrink up to, I believe 20%, which obviously affects the intensity of your orgasm. But I think what's really interesting is that you have these girls going on birth control, younger and younger, they're on it for a majority of their sexual lives. And they're not actually experiencing what an orgasm can be, which I think is really important. Alyssa Scolari [19:12]: Yes. Julia Abbiss [20:06]: As well as affects your libido, which is the greatest irony of them all. You're on this to not get pregnant so you can have sex and not worry about it, but turns out you actually don't want to have sex. Alyssa Scolari [20:18]: Repulsed by sex. Julia Abbiss [20:20]: Totally. I think it was, oh, Sarah Silverman went on her podcast recently and was talking about how she just came off the pill for the first time. And she's like, "I'm so fucking horny and I had no idea." Alyssa Scolari [20:34]: Yes. Absolutely. Julia Abbiss [20:40]: Yeah. Which it's also just a commentary of how we teach girls about their sexuality, about masturbation, about orgasming. I mean, if you had a pill for a man that said, by the way, this might get your dick to shrink and you're not going to want to have sex as much, would it [crosstalk 00:21:02]. Alyssa Scolari [21:03]: No way. Julia Abbiss [21:05]: There's absolutely no way. Alyssa Scolari [21:07]: Absolutely. There's no fucking way. It might change who you're attracted to, it might shrink your dick, your orgasms aren't going to feel as good. Like the fuck ... Julia Abbiss [21:21]: You might have depression and a blood clot. Alyssa Scolari [21:26]: Blood clot. This could potentially kill you but here you go. Julia Abbiss [21:32]: Yeah. You're not actually feeling those things. I mean, you have to laugh when you like, look at this all on paper, like this is outrageous. So I do want to just clarify that when we are talking about this that's related to your disclaimer in the front. This is purely to say that these are side effects that you could be experiencing and just things to look out for. But birth control is ... The one thing that I do want to mention is that two things can be true. And this is what I think we're trying to accomplish with this documentary, is that we can say this is a product that has been a game changer for women. It has liberated us in every sense of the word, but we're just asking for a better product. We don't want it to be unavailable. We don't want, off the market. Like we just want better birth control for women and GNC folks to take where they don't have to worry about this litany of side effects. I mean, there's a scene in the film where you have one of the parents of a woman who unfortunately lost her life while on the pill, just opening up the essential, like scroll of side effects in tiny print, trying to find what it was that her daughter died from. And we're just kind of envisioning a world where that's no longer the case. Alyssa Scolari [23:06]: Yes. And we're also asking for just basic accountability for what these side effects are, because also in the film, I recall and correct me if I'm wrong or if I'm like misinterpreting this, but this like scene where they're talking about how they've gone through the FDA, and have brought these problems to the FDA. And it's not just doctors. It's the fucking FDA who's like, we did a good enough job at warning people. No, the fuck you did not. No, the fuck you did not. There's not a single doctor. Well, I shouldn't say not a single doctor, but the majority of doctors do not inform about any of the side effects. And when that person's coming back with severe depression, nobody thinks to ask about the pill. All these side effects might be listed in some extremely jargony impossible to understand terms in very fine print that you need a microscope to read on this huge scroll that comes in the package. And just in asking for accountability, like the FDA's like, no, there's no issue why we should change this. Like we did everything on our part. We're fine with women potentially losing their lives and living a lower quality of life as a result of this pill. Julia Abbiss [24:35]: Yeah. So there's a particularly infuriating and incredibly heartbreaking part of the documentary where we follow the journeys of these bereaved parents who are trying to get justice for their daughters. And you see them coming together under these really tragic circumstances to appeal at hearings and ask for black box warning labels. And even just to come together to figure out ways to educate other women so that it doesn't happen to them. The FDA is a beast, and it's really intimidating, but incredibly inspiring that these parents are ready and willing and are taking them on. We've heard from the different critics of the documentary. Like, this is such a low percentage of women will die from using hormonal birth control, which yes, it's true. In the grand scheme of things, incredibly low percentage. But try telling that to the parent, who's lost a child. The most unjust way too. I mean, you have otherwise healthy girls. And I think a part of it too, is that we're not testing anything before we prescribe. I mean, someone who has an estrogen dominance shouldn't be prescribed an estrogen based pill, but we don't know that. Instead, we're like, "Okay, try this one. And if it's not really working for you, let's try another one." And part of it in the beginning, you see these women talking about which forms of birth control they're on and many can't name it. They don't know the brand, they're on their fifth one. I mean, it's just ... And that's [inaudible 00:26:27] of the privilege of changing your birth control pill. So there's so many things. I mean, you look at pharmaceutical budgets and a majority of their costs go towards advertising. And it's a very slim percentage that goes towards actual research. An even slimmer percentage when it goes towards research for medications that are taken by women. So it just is so, so very infuriating. Alyssa Scolari [26:59]: It's infuriating and it's sickening. And it doesn't matter that the fact that there are few women who have died, it doesn't matter because that's still somebody's child, somebody's potential mom, somebody's sister. It doesn't matter. And it's not like it's difficult to tell test women prior to putting them on a pill. Hormone testing, have we tested them for any potential clotting disorders, like a history of a clotting issue because they know that birth control can cause blood clots. And it's said so casually. Like, oh, this can cause blood clots. So you just want to like keep an eye out. How does one keep an eye out for a blood clot? Julia Abbiss [27:49]: That was the ... Well, I shouldn't say hilarious. Alyssa Scolari [27:51]: I mean, hysterical in a very morbid sense. Julia Abbiss [27:55]: Exactly. But during the Johnson & Johnson vaccine controversy where they're like, oh, we're going to entirely pull from the market because it caused blood clots in, I think it was like three, nine ... It was an even smaller percentage. And you saw Twitter ablaze with women like, oh my God. Like wait till America hears about the birth control pill. And it just showed like, you can actually take this off the market and test it and give it its due diligence. No, I don't know if you saw any of those Twitter threads, but it was pretty ... Alyssa Scolari [28:36]: Hysterical. Yes. Like, oh yeah, wait until they get a load of what the birth control pill does. We're we're taking Johnson & Johnson off the market for the three to nine people who have had blood clots. Like the number of women who have had issues on birth control was astronomically higher. Julia Abbiss [28:55]: Well, can I just tell you, so I got the J&J vaccine and literally two days later it was pulled because of those side effects. And I was like, are you fucking me? Alyssa Scolari [29:01]: Oh no. Julia Abbiss [29:02]: Like, I've avoided birth control this entire time. Alyssa Scolari [29:07]: And it's a fucking Johnson & Johnson shot that's going to do me in. Julia Abbiss [29:11]: Oh my God. Classic. Alyssa Scolari [29:12]: Son of a bitch. Oh God. And here's the other thing that I think is important to like touch base on. And there's another very simple way of tracking your cycle and being able to be your own form of birth control that's talked about in the film that women never get told. It's very, very fascinating how women are immediately put on a pill when this pill has many side effects, causes suicidality in women, decreases their quality of life, decreases their sex drive, can cause blood clots, all of these other issues, and gastrointestinal issues. That's the other thing we should say is that there's been a ton of research that shows that birth control is linked to gastrointestinal issues. When I came off the pill after what? Seven years of being on it, I had gut issues that I am still trying to get under control. Like, I mean bad. But whatever. You guys know about my gut issues too. So all that, but what we don't tell women and what they're not given the choice to be like, oh, well, what you could do is also track your cycle yourself. Like there are tools out there that you can purchase where you can track your own cycle and gauge your own fertility. And part of that is because we live in a world that's like, you should be terrified of sex. And if you even think about sex, you're going to get pregnant. That's not actually the case. Julia Abbiss [31:01]: Yes. I was today years old when I found out that you could only get pregnant for essentially six days out of your cycle. And that just totally blew my mind. And it's so interesting because most women aren't told this until they're actually trying to get pregnant. So why aren't we using that six days cycle to inform when we can't get pregnant? So there's all these different devices now in the fem tech world, which is so fascinating and it's ever evolving that essentially you are able to track your cycle, to find out when that optimal window is. In which case, if you're trying to prevent pregnancy, you can use alternative barrier methods or anything else that works for you. Some women double up who they have a non-hormonal IUD and also do cycle tracking. So like the birth control pill, it is the most effective when you are taking your temperature, your basal temperature every single day at the same time. There's research being done about connecting your Fitbit, your Apple Watch to track your temperature and sync it with your app so that you don't actually have to take your temperature every morning. And it like can like register when you're waking up so it takes your temperature immediately, which is honestly the problem that I've had. Because when I try taking my temperature, I have like no set sleep schedule. So my timing is always so off. I'm not like a reliable candidate when it comes to actual temperature taking. But if you are meticulous and you're able to take it at the same time every day, and it is optimal when you do have a regular cycle, which I know eliminates a lot of people unfortunately. But I think that these different apps are coming out by female founders also, which is really inspiring that you have all these women who've experienced all these different adverse side effects and thinking surely there has to be a better way. And they're making that happen. So it's a movement that I really think we should all be paying attention to and seeing what's to come. Alyssa Scolari [33:31]: Yeah, absolutely. And this is a movement that's about, again, I just want to reiterate what we talked about at the beginning of this, which is that this is not about trying to shame you or make you feel bad if you have taken birth control and you have experienced great benefit from it. If you have, good for you. This is not about trying to erase birth control. This is about trying to spread awareness and help people become educated. And for me, watching that film, The Business of Birth Control, which is what this entire discussion is based off of, is it was hugely validating for me to know that so much of my depression and rage really wasn't me. And I have found in the work that I've done with so many of my clients who have female reproductive organs who were on the pill when they have come off of the pill, they are so completely different in terms of how they are able to manage their depression, their anxiety, their PTSD symptoms. And now, so many of the conversations that I have with my clients are them being like, "Was I ever even depressed in the first place? Or was it the birth control that has made me depressed?" I have had clients come off of birth control and no longer require therapy because they are absolutely fine. So this is about spreading awareness. This is about promoting women's advocacy. This is about reproductive rights, and this is about fighting for your right as a woman or as a person with female reproductive organs to have a really good fucking sex life with yourself and with other people. Julia Abbiss [35:24]: Amen. Alyssa Scolari [35:25]: Like that is what this is about. And I strongly encourage you if you are listening to this today, I strongly encourage you even if you have male reproductive organs, if you identify as a ... Like, I strongly encourage you to watch this anyway, because we also need you as allies to help advocate. So much of the advocacy I've had to do for myself, I know I wouldn't have been nearly as effective if my husband weren't standing by my side, learning about birth control as well. So get on board with this and we actually have a way for you to be able to see this film. Julia, can you talk about that? Julia Abbiss [36:12]: Yes. So we have a 48 hour free screening opportunity starting on Friday, February 4th, going till Sunday, the 6th. And you can sign up on our website. Again, it's for free at thebusinessof.life. I don't know if you're able to link that in your show notes. Alyssa Scolari [36:32]: I sure am. And today is February 1st. Well, if you are listening to this on the day that the podcast launches, then it is Tuesday, February 1st. And so we have just days and this film will be airing for free. The link will be in the bio. I highly encourage you to go check it out. Whether you are a mental health professional, this can help you, whether you are somebody who's taken birth control before, this can help you, whether you are somebody who is married to somebody or who is in a relationship with somebody or knows somebody who has been on the pill, this can help you. So the link will be in the bio. And Julia, thank you so much for your time, for your expertise, for having such a incredible role in the making and creation and promotion of this film. Because this is really helping women to, I think, feel a sense of solidarity. I know that's what I felt when I watched it. Hugely validated and so not alone. So thank you. Julia Abbiss [37:39]: Thank you so much, Alyssa. I really appreciate it and loved being on your show. Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [37:46]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @LightAfterTrauma. And on Twitter, it is @LightAfterPod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support. [singing]

Over the last several years, the term “gaslighting” has gained significant popularity among adults and adolescents alike. “Gaslighting” is a term that has been around since the 1930's, but what does it really mean? And are we, as a society, over-using/over-simplifying this term? The fact of the matter is that gaslighting is an insidious type of abuse that causes psychological and sometimes physical wounds that may take years or even decades to heal. Medical News Today source material Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Support the Podcast via Patreon Transcript Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey, everybody. What's popping? Welcome back. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. It's that time, another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari and I am hanging in there. You didn't ask, nobody asked. Well, technically some of you asked. I have had quite a few of you reach out in my DMs on my Instagram, which if you haven't given us a follow yet it is lightaftertrauma. Go check us out on Instagram. As many of you know, I have a surgery coming up and my surgery is in two days from when this episode launches. So my surgery is January 27th and I am really looking forward to it. Yeah, I know it's kind of weird, but I'm actually really looking forward to surgery because I am so excited to not be in pain 24 hours a day. And for those of you who might be new to this episode or this podcast, and really haven't listened to previous episodes, I'm having endometriosis surgery. Alyssa Scolari [01:31]: It has been quite the journey. You can feel free to look back at some of my previous episodes. I do actually have an individual episode where I speak about what my process has been with endometriosis. And yeah, so this surgery just feels like a long time coming and I'm getting really excited. I was so nervous that with the rise of Omicron, that my surgery was going to get canceled because the hospital where I'm getting my surgery actually canceled the first two weeks in January because of how badly the virus was spiking. So I thought for sure that there's like no way I'm having the surgery, but as of right now, when I'm recording this, which is Sunday the 23rd, as of right now, my surgery is still on. So hopes and prayers and well wishes that it stays that way. And I'm just asking you all for prayers and well wishes and healing vibes for the recovery, because the way the surgery works and I will definitely do a part two postop about my experience with the surgery and the recovery process. Alyssa Scolari [02:43]: But so my understanding, I am not necessarily going to wake up and be healed. The recovery is still going to take months. I'm still going to need lots of physical therapy. And there's a possibility that this disease has spread to my other organs, which I am hoping and praying isn't the case because I am really looking forward to getting back and living my life. But it is a possibility that this has spread to my bladder, to my bowels, in which case I may need another surgery or even multiple other surgeries. And honestly, it's a little too much to think about right now because I so desperately want to get back to just living my life, but it is what it is. And I will cross that bridge when I get to it. I'm just trying to take things one step at a time. And as of right now, my surgery is on. Alyssa Scolari [03:40]: So thank you so much for everybody who reached out. For anybody who has sent gift cards, we've had people that have sent us meals and gift cards for food, because I have been in so much excruciating pain and my husband has been tending to my every need because honestly, sometimes it's all I can do to just go downstairs and like lay on the couch. It's exhausting. And so, food has sort of been like very low on the totem pole in terms of priorities. So we are really, really lucky to have lots of amazing friends and family and just fans of the podcast who have reached out and sent cards. And my one friend, Jen, who was on the podcast just a couple weeks ago to talk about healing crystals, she sent a healing crystal package, which again, if you haven't listened to that episode, it's called the Hype About Healing Crystals. And it's really, really good. Alyssa Scolari [04:39]: I am somebody who was very skeptic goal about healing crystals, but after meeting Jen, and then a couple of other experiences, which I talk about in that episode, I've become hooked on healing crystals. They're amazing. And Jen sent me this incredible care package. And if you haven't done so already, also go check out Jen's website. It's also in the show notes for that episode. And I think our website is healingartbyjen.com. Her work is absolutely incredible. So I got that package from her, which was really nice and we've just really been feeling the love. So thank you so much for the support. And I will stop blabbing about that now. And I'm going to transition into what we're talking about today, which is a highly requested topic and a topic, which I have been promising for literal months that I was going to talk about. Honestly, probably a year at this point, I have been promising, I was going to put out an episode about this, but... So this has been a long time coming. Alyssa Scolari [05:36]: We are talking about gaslighting today. So this is a term that I feel like is really important for us to discuss. And partially is because everybody's heard this term before, which on the one hand, I'm like, oh, this is really great. We are becoming more knowledgeable as a society, about mental health and abuse and psychological abuse. But then on the other hand, I'm kind of like, yeah, it's kind of a problem that every single person is aware of what gaslighting is, because this has become like a very popular term on all social media platforms. And it just has paved the way for so much misinformation to be spread about this. And I work with both adolescents. I work with like younger kids, maybe like 8, 9, 10, and then I also work with adults. Alyssa Scolari [06:35]: And across the board, I have heard adults and kids alike misuse the term. And of course, I've heard abusers misuse the term, right? Abusers tend to use this term in a way that serves them and fits them. So I've just heard so many people misusing it and overusing it, which does a couple things, right? Number one, that definitely almost like dilutes the potency that is gaslighting. So when every single person is like, "I've been gaslit. I've been gaslit. I've been gaslit. You're gaslighting me. You're gaslighting me. They're gaslighting me." It almost becomes a term that's sort of like, eh, it's gaslighting. And then we kind of lose, like I said, the potency, we don't really understand the horrific effect that gaslighting can have when we are using that term all of the time. Alyssa Scolari [07:39]: And then again, it also just allows for so much misinformation to be spread about what it is. So as an example, if you are 14 and your mother says, no, you're not allowed to go to the movies with your friends. I've heard 14 year olds be like, oh, my mom was gaslighting me because she didn't understand how important it was for me to go to the movies with my friends. So she was gaslighting me the entire night. And it's like, yeah, that's not really what gaslighting is. When people set boundaries with us, we are not being gas lit or vice versa. When we set healthy and appropriate boundaries with other people, that's not gaslighting. And I've heard a lot of people mistake other people setting boundaries as gaslighting, and we are going to get more into it. So I really wanted to do this episode justice and I am very familiar with gaslighting, but I am certainly not an expert in everything or really much of anything besides I would consider myself an expert in trauma and eating disorders. But whatever, basically the point is I can always learn always, always, always. Alyssa Scolari [08:56]: So I really wanted to do this episode justice and bring in a little bit more information than what I had in my toolkit today. And so I am getting a lot of my information today, supplementing this episode with information from medicalnewstoday.com. And I will include that in the show notes. I will include the exact article that I am using. So you can feel free to go and check it out. But I actually have always been really fascinated with the phrase gaslighting itself, because I've always been like, what does that mean? Where does that come from? It just seems like such an odd name. And I never had a clue. Alyssa Scolari [09:42]: So basically what I learned and I learned this through this website, Medical News Today is that gaslighting is actually derived. So this term has been around since the 1930s, which is wild because I feel like a few years ago, people had never even heard of the term, but it's really felt like over the last few years with I think the rise of like social media and TikTok and part of my theory is like I think there's a ton of therapists on TikTok that talk a lot about gaslighting and a ton of mental health professionals and medical professionals, which again is great. Alyssa Scolari [10:19]: Unfortunately, gaslighting has been pulled out of context, but I really think that with the rise of a lot of like mental health professionals and medical professionals on social media, we've seen a lot more of this term, but really this term has been around since the 1930s. And it was derived from a play, which I think is fascinating. So there was a play by a man named Patrick Hamilton. It launched in the 1930s and 1938 to be specific. And then it was actually turned into a film in 1944 and the title of the film and the play is called Gaslit. And the plot of that play slash film essentially is where a husband, he manipulates his wife and he tricks his wife into believing that she's sick with severe mental illness, because he was constantly dimming the lights in their home. Alyssa Scolari [11:23]: And at that time, the lights in people's homes were gas fueled. So what her husband was doing is he was playing this like psychological trick. I mean, it's much more insidious than that, but he was making his wife feel like she was not in reality, not in her right state of mind. He made her feel like she was mentally ill because he kept dimming their gas fueled lights in the house. And then when she would say something about it, he kept telling her that she was hallucinating. So he supported her in this question or belief or crisis about her like mental illness. He was like, yep, Nope. You're the issue. You're hallucinating. So that's where we get this concept of gaslighting from. And basically at the grassroots, gaslighting is psychological abuse and gaslighting can be done by a single person. Alyssa Scolari [12:20]: It can be done by a group of people. It can be done by an institution and we will get more into that in a little bit. But basically the goal when somebody is gaslighting you, or when people are gaslighting you, the goal is to make you question your memories, your beliefs, your own perception of reality. And ultimately, gaslighting is meant to make you question your sanity. And over a period of time, gaslighting causes you to feel constantly anxious and confused and scared. And you don't even trust yourself. You don't trust your thoughts. You don't trust your feelings. You don't trust your emotions. That is the ultimate goal of gaslighting. Alyssa Scolari [13:18]: So there are several specific techniques that are used when it comes to gaslighting. And I believe that there are even more than what I'm about to list. Like at the end of the day, when it comes to gaslighting, when somebody's going to gaslight you, I feel like it's probably rare that they're going to sit down and be like, "Hmm, let me look at all of these subcategories of gaslighting and pick which one I think is going to work the best." Alyssa Scolari [13:45]: But I feel like based off of the research that is done, or that has been done to date, these are the techniques that we are aware of and have been able to gather so far. So the first is countering, and this is basically when somebody is causing you or making you feel like you need to question your own memories. So this can happen a lot. And a lot of gaslighting happens in like domestic violence in situations. This also can happen a lot with child abuse where a parent or the abuser might say something like, "Are you sure that happened?" Or it might not even necessarily be a parent or an abuser. Again, as we're going to talk about later, it could be anybody who says this. So the person might say like, "Are you sure that really happened? Are you positive?" Alyssa Scolari [14:41]: Like you don't always have a track record of having the best memory. So I just want to make sure are you positive? And they ask in this like very condescending way, right? There's nothing innocent about this question. It might be a question, but this person is asking you this because they already know the answer that they want from you. So then, there's withholding. And that looks like stonewalling. It's when somebody absolutely refuses to engage with you or engage in a conversation. Sometimes that person might pretend to like misunderstand you. Like let's say you catch your partner... I don't know. Let's say you caught your partner cheating, right? You suspected partner was cheating and you followed them. They said they were going out with their friends. You followed them. You found that they were in fact cheating on you. Alyssa Scolari [15:39]: And then you go to confront your partner. Your partner might be like, "I'm not having this conversation with you. Like, I can't believe that you wouldn't trust me. I'm not doing this." Or, "I have no idea what you're talking about. And you're making me feel confused. Like this doesn't make any sense." All this, like just completely shut down. Like I'm not having this conversation with you. I don't know what you're talking about basically. When you get your head screwed on straight, then come back to me and we can have a conversation. So that's withholding, looks a lot like stonewalling. And then there's trivializing, which this one happened to me all the time when I was little. Alyssa Scolari [16:26]: So it's evil. And the upsetting thing about it is that so many parents do this, but not because they're being inherently mean, or they want to harm their child. So many parents do this type of gaslighting because they don't know better, because they think that that is the way to handle a child's emotions. And again, we see trivializing across the board, right? Anybody can be gaslit. When I'm talking about like personal experiences and a lot of experiences that I've seen in my private practice. I've seen a lot of parents that often will say things like, "You are 14. You have no idea what depression even is." Or, "Are you seriously crying right now? Get it together. I will give you something to cry about." Or, "There's no need to be upset about this. You are being ridiculous." Or, "You are so dramatic. This is not a situation in which you should be upset. Like this is not a reason to cry." All of those things are trivializing emotions. Alyssa Scolari [17:48]: Or if you're looking at like intimate partner relationships, right? Let's say your partner does something that triggers you. Like the other night, David and I, we were having a conversation and he had said something about how he kind of feels like my voice is really loud in the house and that my voice carries and it does. All of these things are true, but he did not realize that for me, being told that I'm too loud is a huge trigger. And so, he said it and he said it in like a very laughing and joking matter, there was nothing wrong with the way he said it, but I was flooded with shame and I actually started to cry. And he could have said, "You're being ridiculous. You're being so ridiculous. This is not a reason to cry," but he didn't. Because I was very upset. My whole life have always been told that I am too loud, that I am too obnoxious and I'm Italian. Alyssa Scolari [18:50]: I get very passionate about things. And that's also just who I am as a person, my voice gets loud. My voice carries. And I personally have never been ashamed of my voice, but I have felt shame a lot when I... I just have very distinct memories of my friends and previous partners. And even my family that have always been like, "Shut up. You're being so loud." And I just am talking at like my normal pace, my normal volume, honestly. So I have lots of shame around that. It was very upsetting to me when he said it. He didn't mean anything by it, but he could have easily, again, just been like, "What are you talking about? You're being ridiculous." But instead he sat down, he listened to me. He acknowledged why I feel shame. He let me tell him why I feel so much shame around being told that my voice is really loud. Alyssa Scolari [19:50]: And as a result, I felt so much better after. I was able to move through the shame. So situations like that also can be trivializing. Then there's denial and denial is pretty much self-explanatory. This person is pretending to forget or is saying that you're making things up. This happens so much with abuse, sexual abuse more specifically, right? It's bad enough that survivors are sexually abused, but then the psychological abuse that comes after the women make these things up. And I'm not just talking about women. Men and gender nonconforming people, non-binary, people are also sexually abused, but we are told that we are making it up. That that's not how it happened or that we wanted it or we consented. Anything, right? That's not what really happened is what we are told all of the time. Alyssa Scolari [21:04]: Again, that is a form of gaslighting. That makes us question our reality because the majority of people walk into my office thinking they may possibly have been sexually abused, but the amount of denial based gaslighting that they've experienced in their lives have them questioning whether or not they were actually abused, which is why when people often come into my office, they don't just have trauma. They have eating disorders, addictions, OCD, several other things that they had to develop as a way to cope with their abuse because so many people have told them that abuse didn't even happen. So they weren't given a chance to truly deal with it. I hope that makes sense so far. And please, I know I'm throwing a lot of information at you, but please feel free to reach out if any of you have any follow up questions about this.I would be more than happy to talk more about whatever questions you might have. Alyssa Scolari [22:07]: So then there is diverting, and this is when somebody changes the focus of a discussion and then questions the other person's credibility instead. So what do I mean by this? Well, I have a really good example. So this is an example of a situation that happened between two friends. So the one friend, basically these two people have been best friends for years. And the one friend has always been the helper/supporter/pseudo therapist for the other friend, always listening to this person's issues. And always trying to help this person, would pick up the phone at 1:00 AM, 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM. Anytime this person needed them, the friend was there. And yes, the boundaries in this relationship were very inappropriate in this friendship. Alyssa Scolari [23:06]: And things only continued to get worse. So at one point, this friend who was struggling with mental health started to rely on the pseudo therapist friend entirely too much. And when this person was feeling suicidal, they would call almost every night, wake this person up in the middle of the night. It just became too much. Now when the pseudo therapist friend tried to set a boundary and tried to talk to this other friend about how they were feeling, this friend said, "Look, I feel really bad. I know you're really struggling, but I am not the person to help you. And in fact, you are struggling so much that it's now affecting me and my mental health. So I really need you to try to get a therapist because I'm just not the one to help you." Alyssa Scolari [23:58]: The friend who is struggling with her mental health totally changed the topic of the conversation and threw it back on the pseudo therapist friend by saying, "Wow, I guess I'm just too much for you. Well, have you ever thought that maybe you're a bad friend? Have you ever thought that maybe you should care about somebody other than yourself for once?" And then what happened is the pseudo therapist friend ended up feeling guilty and ashamed and like a terrible friend, and then just stayed silent and continued to suffer and continued to get up at 1:00 AM, 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM night after night after night to help this person, because they were gaslit into believing that they were a bad friend. Alyssa Scolari [24:53]: So what that person did is they heard that a boundary was being set. They didn't like said boundary. So they completely changed the focus and put the focus back on the pseudo therapist. And saying, nope, the issue isn't me. The issue is you. That is the purest form of gaslighting and diverting, right? And then we have stereotyping, and this is again, pretty much self explanatory. Right? We see this so much with really anyone, whether it's race, ethnicity, sexuality, nationality, age, we see this so much with age. Alyssa Scolari [25:42]: And it's as simple as honestly like, oh, you're a woman. You can't drive. You don't know what to do. You're a woman and you can't do math. Or you're old, and therefore like are you sure you are remembering that... Like, are you sure you actually know what you saw because you're old and your memory's not as good as it used to be. It's basically just taking stereotypes that we have about people and minority groups and using them against them. I'm not going to go into further detail on this because using the stereotyping piece, because honestly stereotypes are really, really hurtful and I hate them and they trigger me. So I'm sure that they would trigger other people. So you understand what I mean. Alyssa Scolari [26:35]: So these are the like subcategories of gaslighting that we know about so far. Again, I think there are probably others out there, but this is what we know about so far. And as I mentioned, gaslighting happens across a million gazillion platforms. It's not just from between friends. It's so much between intimate partner relationships. And this is part of the reason why people have such a hard time leaving when they're in a domestic violence relationship is because of the gaslighting. This happens a lot in child parent relationships. Happens a ton in the medical field so much. And you all know that I am no stranger to the medical gaslighting. I mean, just in my battle with endometriosis alone, I cannot tell you how many doctors have told me that my pain. Or have not directly told me, but have tried to indirectly tell me that my pain is in my head or that it's my fault that I'm in pain. Alyssa Scolari [27:56]: "Well, if you lost weight, you'd feel better." Or, "Well, if you took Advil, you'd feel better. Well, that's just the way period cramps are. You're just supposed to be in agony, throwing up." Medical gaslighting constantly. And this is so dangerous because this leads to physical problems happening as well, right? Over a period of time, I started to gaslight myself with my own pain and still do. What if it's not that bad? I'm terrified to go on surgery on Thursday because I'm afraid they're not going to find anything. And I often say to my husband, like what if they don't find anything? What if this is just all in my head? And so much of that is due to all of the medical gaslighting I have experienced where people have made me feel as though my pain is not valid. And it's just a result of me being weak. Alyssa Scolari [29:01]: So on medicalnewstoday.com they actually say here, what I think is really interesting, that in 2009, there was a study done that found that doctors were twice as likely to attribute coronary heart disease symptoms in middle aged women to mental health conditions versus middle aged men. So if you have coronary heart disease as a woman, you are twice as likely to be told that your symptoms are a result of your mental health, as opposed to men, which is absolutely staggering. And honestly should be shocking, but it's really not with everything that I've learned about medical gaslighting. So yeah, it happens a lot. I am certainly no stranger to it. In fact, I had an appointment with a doctor just a few weeks ago and was talking about my symptoms, my endometriosis symptoms, which again, as many of you know is throwing up, chronic fatigue, passing out from the pain. Alyssa Scolari [30:05]: I am in pain all of the time. I have severe GI issues. There's not a whole lot of food I can keep down. My quality of life is just in the toilet. And a doctor literally told me to stop catastrophizing. Stop catastrophizing. I'm just going to let you sit with that for a second. The rage that I felt, ugh, I digress. But so anyway, in addition to the medical gas lighting and the child parent relationships and the intimate partner relationships, we also have racial gaslighting. This is so prevalent. This is when people are applying those gas lighting techniques to a group of people based on race or identity, tons of the stereotype gaslighting. Also, it fits right in here. And I'm not going to go to too many examples, but basically you may deny. A lot of this happens when like white people say or make fun of this concept, that white people can't be discriminated against based off of the color of their skin, because they can't be. Alyssa Scolari [31:26]: And many of us know that, but white people love to say, they love to deny people of minority their experiences of oppression, of discrimination, things like that. White people... Not all white people. But many way people love to say that they understand what it's like to be an African American person, an Asian American person. They know what it's like to be discriminated against. No, we absolutely don't. Absolutely don't. And to pretend like we do is gaslighting. I see this so much with the body positivity movement. There are thin people, people who have thin privilege everywhere that are taking to social media and showing pictures of their bodies after they eat meals and their bodies are like bloated and they are hashtag fat positivity. Honey, no. Alyssa Scolari [32:24]: And to do that, to say that is denying the experiences of actual fat people who exist and who are constantly invalidated in this society. Having thin privilege, you can be an ally and you can absolutely support the fat positivity movement, but not everybody. And I literally mean that not everybody can be a fat person and not everybody will understand what it is like to have the experiences of a fat person in this world. Thin privilege is very, very real. And whatever, that's a topic for another episode, but you understand what I mean, racial gaslighting. It's really based on ethnicity, but you can be gas lit based on again, body shape, whether you have a disability, if you are in a wheelchair your entire life. You are essentially a target for gaslighting, unfortunately. Alyssa Scolari [33:30]: There's also political gaslighting, which is really about political parties hiding things or things, or withholding information that might change their followers' opinions, or beliefs or views on a subject. It's when politicians are withholding information or denying things for their own personal gain. Alyssa Scolari [33:58]: And then there's institutional gaslighting. And really this can occur at any company or organization. And this happens so often where employees are gaslit by their bosses. So for example, I worked at a restaurant many moons ago and I had a boss who was hitting on me. Well, I'm not going to even say hitting on me. He was sexually harassing me and I let it go. I let it go. I let it go. But then something happened that was extremely inappropriate and made me extremely uncomfortable. And I decided that I could not continue to go into work and work under him because I was terrified. I was so afraid of him. So I reported him and I ended up being pushed out of the job. I was told by my peers when it had gotten out that I reported him, that I ruined his life, that I should feel so sorry for him, because he is not going to be able to pay his bills. That I'm mentally ill and I need to stop making things up. Alyssa Scolari [35:23]: And eventually, they stopped putting me on the schedule to come into work. I essentially lost my job because I was trying to stand up for my right to not be sexually harassed in the workplace and to not be raped because that's where it was going. And I lost my job. And this happens so often, especially when it comes to sexual harassment. But when it comes to standing up for anything, asking for a raise, asking for just getting your basic needs met in the workplace, right? Whether you need a break, whether you need time to be able to eat lunch, whether you need a raise because you haven't had a raise in years, you will be made to seem like you are the issue. It always the case that you're going to get a raise. Alyssa Scolari [36:21]: And all a sudden your boss is like, well, your performance hasn't been the best over the last couple of months. And there are some things you can improve upon. And once you make those improvements, oh, we will totally talk about a raise. That's bull. That is absolute bull. That is gaslighting because you are then left questioning your own reality where you were strolling along thinking you were a fantastic worker, but all of a sudden you're like, well, wait a minute. Am I really that good of a worker? Like, do I need to improve? I didn't realize I was a bad worker. So gaslighting, gaslighting, gaslighting. That is what that is. Alyssa Scolari [37:10]: Now, it is this pervasive, pervasive problem in the world. And yes, it is overused and sometimes oversimplified. And I wish that it wouldn't be because this type of psychological abuse has a profound impact on your mental and physical health for years or decades to come. This type of psychological abuse leaves us feeling confused. We are constantly second guessing ourselves. We are constantly feeling indecisive. I struggle sometimes even to pick out what I want for dinner. If we are at a restaurant, I will look at the menu forever because I don't trust myself enough to pick what I want. I'm second guessing myself. I am double checking. I need to make like a whole God chart before I pick out a meal at a restaurant because I'm that unsure of myself. We can't make even the simplest of decisions. Alyssa Scolari [38:20]: We are told that we are too sensitive. We then become withdrawn and unsociable. We are constantly apologizing for our behaviors. I am so guilty of this. I am constantly sorry. And it's a work in progress, but I'm still constantly apologizing to people, right? Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, I'm so sorry. I've really had to make an intentional effort, but this is a result of all of the gaslighting that I've experienced in my life. We tend to defend our abuser when we've been gaslit, right? Again, this is often why, and not all of the reason why, but this is often why people do not leave right away when they're being abused. Because with the perhaps physical and sexual abuse comes the psychological abuse, which is the gaslighting, which is all of the things I just mentioned. So people don't actually know they're being abused because they get abused, but then they get gas lit about it. Alyssa Scolari [39:26]: And then they are made to feel like the abuse is their fault. So they don't leave. If anything, they feel even more and more worthless, therefore are feeling more and more grateful that their abuser still loves them. So they're more likely to stay. Gaslighting causes us to constantly make excuses for other people. And ultimately, it just robs us of hope and joy. And it robs us of confidence and our ability to feel competent in any area of our lives. And if you've experienced medical gaslighting, that can lead to physical issues. If you're constantly told that your pain is in your head and you start to believe it to, and then you completely ignore your symptoms, you could be sicker and sicker and sicker. So the impact of gaslighting is profound and it is a type of psychological trauma that I wish on absolutely nobody, but the sad truth of the matter is that millions and millions of us have experienced this. Alyssa Scolari [40:38]: Now, obviously this is something that's really important to work through in therapy. And this is part of why in addition to talk therapy, I also recommend a lot of like body work because part of reversing the harm that was done is learning how to trust your body again. And once you learn how to trust your body again, and once you learn how to have more faith in yourself, you are less likely to be gaslit in the future. I know for myself, the more confidence that I've gained and I've gained a lot of confidence over the last several years, I really don't take a whole lot of shit from people. I can absolutely call out when I'm being gaslit. It's a little bit harder for me when it comes to the medical gas lighting. Alyssa Scolari [41:24]: And I think that just goes along with because I live in a fat body, I'm constantly stigmatized and I'm constantly made to feel like all of my issues are my fault and are a result of my weight, which is not true, but it's a little bit harder for me in terms of medical gaslighting. But in other parts, I am really able to like identify the second I'm being gaslit. I call it what it is and in doing so I don't necessarily absorb that abuse. I more or less let it bounce off of me. And therefore I'm not harmed by it. I might be hurt, but I'm not going to have psychological harm that's going to last for years or decades to come. Alyssa Scolari [42:11]: So therapy is so important. Body work is so important. I hope that this episode was helpful and enlightening. Again, I will put the website that I used for today's episode in the show notes. So feel free to check it out and to read a little bit more about it. But I really think it's useful for people to know exactly what gaslighting is, so that A, we are not overusing it or oversimplifying it or using it inappropriately, but B and even more importantly, that we are able to see when it's happening for ourselves, because when we can identify it, like I said, we are less likely to absorb it and therefore less likely to be harmed by it. Alyssa Scolari [42:55]: So thank you for listening. If you like what you hear today, and you like the podcast, it would mean the world if you could please go and leave a review or a rating. Reviews really help us grow. And the more we grow, the more people see the podcast and listen to the podcast, and the more people can receive free mental health, trauma focused education, which is always the goal. If you are able to support the podcast financially, that would be amazing too. We do have a Patreon. Please go to the show notes and you can see the Patreon there where you can contribute brilliant. And any amount that you would like, you can either do it on a monthly basis, or you can do a one off contribution. Whatever you choose to do would be absolutely amazing. Or you can just head on over to the website at lightaftertrauma.com and the Patreon will be there as well, along with all of the episodes and the transcripts for the episodes. Alyssa Scolari [43:57]: So with that, this is the last episode before I head into my surgery. I do not know what to expect, but I will see you on the other side and please know that I love you all and I am holding you in the light. Alyssa Scolari [44:14]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma. And on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again. That's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support. [Singing].

Kristen Donnelly (MSW, M.Div, PhD) is a TEDx speaker, international empathy educator, and researcher with two decades of experience in helping people understand the beauty in difference and the power in inclusivity. In this episode, Kristen warns of some of the dangers of the tolerance framework when it comes to inclusion and diversity. She offers a different alternative to this framework – one that will ultimately help us as a society to have better, more effective conversations and spew less violence and hatred toward one another.  Kristen Donnelly TED Talk 1 Kristen Donnelly TED Talk 2 Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Support the Podcast Transcript Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey friends. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. We have a guest episode today. Before that, just some housekeeping things, if you haven't done so already, please go check out our Instagram page. The handle is @lightaftertrauma. If you haven't done so already, please go check out our Instagram. It is Light After Trauma, just the name of the podcast. We've got some awesome things lined up for you there. Alyssa Scolari [00:54]: Just an FYI. I do have somebody running that page so if you reach out, I will do my best to get back to you. I love connecting with you, but just give me some time and know that if you see that somebody's active, please don't feel like I'm ignoring you. It's not always me. I do hire somebody to run that page. She does an amazing job. Please go check us out. Alyssa Scolari [01:20]: Also, if you haven't done so already, please leave a review or a rating for the podcast. That helps this podcast to grow so much and reach more people. The goal, as I've always said, is to be able to provide people with some type of free access to mental health information. While this isn't exactly mental health treatment, it's information, it's connection, it's inspiration, and especially in this world that we are living in right now, we need it more than ever. If you haven't done so already, please leave a rating overview for the podcast. It would mean the world to me. Alyssa Scolari [02:01]: Lastly, we do have a Patreon for the podcast. I know I've mentioned here before, you can please look at the show notes for access to the Patreon. If you are able to contribute even the smallest amount, that would be so, so helpful. Again, it does take quite a bit of money to run the podcast, and I'm not complaining about that. I am fortunate enough to be able to have the money to do so and to kind of keep up with it, but it is sort of becoming more and more difficult to keep up with as time goes on because it's taking a lot more time as we do more things with the podcast and becoming more expensive. Any amount that you can give will would be amazing and we would be so, so appreciative. Alyssa Scolari [02:47]: That being said, today I'm going to introduce our guest. This is Kristen Donnelly, who is an MSW. She is a master's degree in social work and she is a PhD. She is also a Ted X speaker, a international empathy educator, and a researcher with two decades of experience in helping people understand the beauty, indifference and the power in inclusivity. She's one of the good doctors of Abby Research, COO of their parent company and an unapologetic nerd for stories of change. Kristen lives outside of Philadelphia with her husband, where they are surrounded by piles of books and several video game consoles. Alyssa Scolari [03:29]: Hi, Kristen. Welcome. How are you? Kristen Donnelly [03:31]: I am fantastic. How are you doing ma'am? Alyssa Scolari [03:34]: I am good. I was reading your bio and felt like I was reading about myself for a second, not just because we're from the same area, but the piles of books and video game consoles. Do you have a favorite game you're playing right now? Kristen Donnelly [03:53]: Well, I'm perpetually playing Stardew Valley. I'm just always in a play through of Stardew Valley, but in anticipation of season two of the Witcher coming back out, I'm doing a replay of Witcher three. Alyssa Scolari [04:07]: Nice. Nice. I mean, it's me. It's 1000% percent me. I am on a huge Kingdom Hearts kicker right now. Kristen Donnelly [04:17]: I haven't dived into that one yet. I own it. I just haven't started because I'm not home enough to devote my time to a whole new world. Alyssa Scolari [04:26]: Yes. That's exactly what it is. It's a whole new world. I mean, I'm addicted. I mean, I can't stop. I was like, I was reading this bio and I was like, "Oh," I'm talking about myself for right now playing video games until 11:00 last night when I needed to go to bed. But I digress. Alyssa Scolari [04:47]: So welcome. It's so nice to have you on the show. Today we're talking a little bit, well, little bit, lot a bit, about this concept of tolerance. As I mentioned when I was reading Kristen's bio, she is a TEDx speaker. Please head over to the show notes. All of the YouTube links to the TEDx talks will be in there. You absolutely want to hear them. They are phenomenal. We're talking about tolerance today. Can you actually just first elaborate if you're comfortable with sharing on how you even came to be in this field and be passionate about these topics? Kristen Donnelly [05:25]: That is the question I get the most and I'm still not good at saying it succinctly. We'll give this another go. In a certain way I've been having these conversations for most of my life. My family bought a company in 1991 when I was seven years old. It is in a really under-resourced area of Philadelphia. My dad's goal was to bring jobs back to that neighborhood. It's a manufacturing company and we make dye. You've used our dye, you just don't know it. But we make this stain that they use in the pap smear to see if people have cancer. We make the dye for the outside of sutures, the black sutures. It's a lot of stuff. We make the color of Advil, some stuff like that. Kristen Donnelly [06:10]: But the point was that there was always more job opportunities for people who "don't fit". Over the years, a lot of our folks have been in recovery. They've been just out of prison, they're illiterate, they're not high school graduates, but we just deeply believe that that doesn't mean that they're not employable people and that they're not people and they're not worth our investment and our belief. This evolved into a mission statement, which is that our family is called to impact lives and create wealth. The wealth is emotional, psychosocial, economic, physical, spiritual, everything. Kristen Donnelly [06:53]: How can we impact lives and create wealth all the time? Because that question has been at the forefront of my life, this little white girl raised in suburban Philadelphia was never allowed really because of where we owned the factory and the things that we were facing all the time and the stuff, my dad didn't really, he didn't shove in our faces, but he didn't shelter us either. We were always raised to understand that where are born determines a lot of how you live, that a lot of choices are taken away from you before you even take your first breath. What does that look like and how can those of us who have privilege leverage that privilege for the power of others? Kristen Donnelly [07:32]: For us, it's a very faith based conversation, but I've learned that it's both faith based and not. It's how to human in a specific way. Very honestly, this is kind of how my thought processes have been going forever. I was the kid in college that when somebody would be like, "Well, we really need to have more diversity in our college experience," and I'm looking around and I'm like, "Okay, what you mean is racial diversity and I don't disagree, but you've got to stop using that word because I'm one of four kids at this college from above the Mason Dixon line. I bring some diversity." 80% of people here are on financial aid. That's some diversity for the 20% that aren't, that are bringing that in. It's a college full of people who grew up as third culture missionary kids. That's a lot of diversity. Why aren't we bringing that in? Kristen Donnelly [08:20]: But everybody was so focused on the fact that we were largely homogeneously white, that there was no appreciation of other values of diversity. I kept getting bugged by that throughout the '90s and early ots and just I was always the obnoxious kid that was on student government or anything else. I was like, "We've just got to stop using that word." But I hadn't figured out how to convince people of my argument. Kristen Donnelly [08:51]: It really ticked for me when I was sitting in a youth rally in Belfast, Northern Ireland in 2006 and Northern Ireland's a really complicated place with a lot of tension, both violent and emotional, historically. They used the word tolerance. You have to learn to tolerate each other. It hit me like a ton of bricks, but that was actually one of the rudest things we could do, that tolerance is simply acknowledging that someone else is allowed to exist, that somebody else is alive because it is illegal to kill you. It does not encourage relationship. It does not encourage curiosity. It really doesn't even acknowledge their humanity. It just acknowledges their existence. Kristen Donnelly [09:37]: For about 10 years, I chewed on it. I did as much research. I'm a nerd. I have a lot of grad degrees. I did as much research as I could into really, truly what does diversity mean ecologically, spiritually, everything. What does diversity actually mean? The more I looked into it, the more I realized that tolerance is garbage and tolerance, that this is what the '90s came to, like those coexist bumper stickers drive me up an absolute wall now, that ... Alyssa Scolari [10:07]: The coexist bumper stickers? Kristen Donnelly [10:09]: Yeah. Because this is what we were giving to other people, all we were told as kids, so I'm an elder millennial, I'm the Oregon trail generation. What we were taught was to tolerate each other. We were never actually taught how to have conversations with each other. We were never taught about how to appreciate that someone else's way to be human is just as valid as yours. We were just taught to tolerate. Kristen Donnelly [10:37]: I looked around the planet and I realized, I started tracing some things back and I was like, "Okay, a lot of this is because we were taught to tolerate each other." There's so much pearl collecting these days over, we don't know how to have conversations. I'm like, "Well, we never really did." Alyssa Scolari [10:52]: We never did. Never. Kristen Donnelly [10:54]: There was pockets of humanity, especially in small towns where you had to get along, whether you wanted to or not. There was a lot of force proximity. That's still not inclusivity. That's just forced proximity. We've done all this. We've got 2,000, 4,900,000 years of human history, depending on who you talk to. We've never done this well. But we have all the science in front of us that shows we've never done it well on a large scale. We've done it well in interpersonal relationships. Kristen Donnelly [11:24]: But with the continuing calls to walk away from your family if they didn't agree with you politically, or to walk away to assume who somebody was based on what they retweeted on Twitter, I just started getting really nervous that all we were going to do was keep fracturing even further and we were going to calcify into those fractures. Kristen Donnelly [11:46]: When it came time to do my first TEDx application, this was the idea I knew, if I shared no other idea for the rest of my life, this is the one I wanted to present, which is that we have to stop tolerating each other and we have to start welcoming each other instead. That doesn't mean being in a relationship with toxic people. It does not mean being in relationship with people who deny your humanity, but it means getting to know them a little bit first to know whether they actually do or not or they just retweeted something dumb. It's saying, right now as you and I talk, there's so much kerfuffle over JK Rowling. Alyssa Scolari [12:22]: So much. Kristen Donnelly [12:25]: I absolutely believe that her beliefs around trans people are damaging and murderous and actually violent. The calls for absolutely every person to completely abandon Harry Potter is also not productive or helpful, especially with all the research that we have that reading Harry Potter indicates that children will be more empathetic and open to difference than if they didn't. Kristen Donnelly [12:52]: I think for me, I mean, the internet is a fear machine. We carry around fear machines in our pockets. Alyssa Scolari [12:58]: Yes. Kristen Donnelly [12:59]: If we take JK Rowling, is she a trans exclusionary, radical feminist? She absolutely is. She's even kind of claimed that. She's not ashamed of it anymore. She's gotten really loud about it. She gives a lot of money to those causes. This isn't a secret, but it does not mean that somebody who still finds a lot of identity as a Hufflepuff is also a turf. It might, but it doesn't, there's not ... Correlation does not equal causation. We can have conversations with each other to then determine the boundaries we have to set rather than setting those boundaries before the conversation all the time. Kristen Donnelly [13:37]: Really honestly, what I'm advocating for is that humans are messy and so life is messy and we just need to allow each other to be messy instead of these kind of very black and white boundaries that a lot of us have instinctually begun to draw because the fear machines told us to. Speaker 2 [14:01]: Yes. I mean, my brain jumps right into this cancel culture. There's such a push to, like you said, a cancel her and four people who are Harry Potter fans like myself, with a slew of Harry Potter pop figures sitting on the shelf behind me, harry Potter saved me in my childhood. I say that, I'll tell anybody that. I say that all the time. I found so much comfort and solace in those books. I find it to be so ... I'm just very unsettled by this idea that we cancel her but then we also cancel every single person who continues to support Harry Potter in any way, shape or form. Speaker 2 [14:51]: I guess the question I have for you is how do you propose, what happens instead? What does that idea of being more welcoming and allowing people to be messy, how do we find that middle ground between holding folks accountable, but also allowing them space to be messy? Kristen Donnelly [15:12]: In terms of, so let's keep going with this Harry Potter, because it's actually a pretty good one. Today on Tumblr, I saw somebody say, "Your love of Harry Potter is not more important than somebody's else's life." That statement to me is an encapsulation of a lot of false assumptions. Kristen Donnelly [15:27]: First of all, that my love of Harry Potter does not mean that I loathe that trans folks are being murdered. My love of Harry Potter does not mean that I do not believe that trans women are women and trans men are men. It does not mean a lot of things. We can draw the boundary and say that JK Rowling is a turf. If I make the choice to not go and see any of the new movies, for instance, because she is a producer on those, and so that puts money in her pocket. I don't need those stories anymore. Kristen Donnelly [16:01]: Grindelwald isn't part of this for me. I don't need to continue to explore new ways that she wants to tell stories. But that seven book cannon is incredibly sacred to my 20s and to erase them from my 20s is doing some retroactive work that isn't kind to me or who I was then or anything else. All that being said, I think we can cancel JK Rowling. I think we certainly can. I think we can stop giving her platforms. Kristen Donnelly [16:38]: However, the problem is that we will always be giving her money. This is the same thing in which Disney is a problematic corporation and they are terrible in so many ways and beautiful in so many others. She appears more clear cut because she's one person. Alyssa Scolari [16:58]: She's very out and loud about her [crosstalk 00:17:01]. Kristen Donnelly [17:01]: And obnoxious. She's obnoxious about it. Alyssa Scolari [17:02]: She is. Kristen Donnelly [17:03]: She is. I have no problem calling a spade a spade here, as they say in the UK. She's a problem. She's a problem. But she is not the only one who makes money on Harry Potter. She is not the only one who is caught up in this universe. She is not the only one. She is an industry. She is a corporation. Kristen Donnelly [17:25]: The first thing that I always say and my business partner, Dr. Erin, and I talk about this a lot, is that you can love problematic things as long as you understand that they're problematic. Alyssa Scolari [17:35]: That's a really interesting concept. Kristen Donnelly [17:37]: Part of adulthood is saying, "Oh my God, I love Harry Potter so much, but I look back now and it's hella racist. The way that she did sexuality is weird because now we know why, and retroactively conning Dumbledore sexuality was kind of shady." We can say all of these things. Alyssa Scolari [17:58]: The actually caused so much trauma for the students that he terrorized like Snape. Kristen Donnelly [18:04]: I can still say that all truth is truth and all the goodness is goodness. Hermione is one of the ways I learned that it was okay to be smart. All of those things can be true at once. It can be true that she gave us a definitive world that literally saved the lives of millions of children around the world and that she advocates personally for the exclusion of a marginalized group, both of those things can be true and they are true. It sucks. Kristen Donnelly [18:47]: Some of it is saying things like I absolutely love sports. I love sports so much. I watch sports all the time. Would I love to also tell you that I struggled to watch the NFL because I've read the research on CTE? Absolutely. Is football something that I find a lot of joy in and that kills people? Yeah, both those things are true. Kristen Donnelly [19:09]: Really, to me, one of the examples of this not going well is that we can't have an honest conversation in the United States about guns because people who love guns can't accept that what is also true is that they kill children. You can have a deep love of this culture that I personally do not understand. This can be a part of your identity, but I need you to also accept that they're too easily accessible and that mentally ill folks can shoot up rooms full of kindergartners. I need you to hold those two things as true and then we can start having conversations. Alyssa Scolari [19:47]: Yes. Kristen Donnelly [19:49]: We've been under this illusion as humans that things are simple, that things are supposed to be easy, that as we get older, things are more clear cut. No pals. As we get older, they get messier. We all still have this myth that at some point in life it was easy. Alyssa Scolari [20:09]: Yes. Kristen Donnelly [20:10]: It wasn't. Alyssa Scolari [20:11]: Back in the day, quote unquote. Kristen Donnelly [20:13]: There is no day. Alyssa Scolari [20:14]: There is no ... Kristen Donnelly [20:14]: I mean, there's a great Dane Cook joke where he says like, "Back in the day," which was a Wednesday, by the way. Alyssa Scolari [20:19]: I love Dane Cook. Kristen Donnelly [20:21]: Whenever somebody says, I'm like, he's terribly problematic, but he had some really good jokes. Alyssa Scolari [20:27]: He's horrible and I can't listen to him anymore, but he had some amazing jokes. Kristen Donnelly [20:33]: All of those things are true. Tina Faye has some spaces to grow and she is not good at being an inclusive comic. But Liz Lemon is one of the most profound comic characters we've ever had. All these things are true all at once. But we got to start being honest. We got to stop being scared to say the messy things because canceling, I'll say this, canceling shouldn't be a knee jerk reaction. It should be a consequence of a lot of actions. Kristen Donnelly [21:08]: I can't remember. It was like, so there's a Broadway star who I really like who came out and said that she was anti-vaccine and that she wouldn't be getting vaccinations. A lot of her co-stars, which they have every right to do, were kind of like, "Cool. I'm never working with you again. I'm not ever doing this again." But I watched the Broadway community immediately be like, "We're canceling her." I was like, "Okay, that seems quick." Kristen Donnelly [21:32]: Then people started to kind of come with other receipts of other things she's been doing. Like, guys, this is emblematic. This isn't one thing she did. This is emblematic of an attitude of how she's treated other people. This is kind of, she's shown us who she is and now we can believe her. Alyssa Scolari [21:50]: Right. It's been a buildup, not like ... Kristen Donnelly [21:54]: Brett Kavanaugh showed us who he was. We should have believed Dr. Ford. Alyssa Scolari [21:59]: Yes. Kristen Donnelly [22:02]: Larry Nassar showed us who he was and we needed to believe the gymnasts. When people show you who they are, we need to believe them, as Dr. Angelou said. When people do something dumb on Twitter in the year of our Lord 2012, and we unearth it, we need to see a bigger context. Kristen Donnelly [22:20]: That's kind of how I would say it. It needs to be a much more messy conversation. I should also say everybody's decision on this, your mileage may vary. If as you're listening to this, your choice is that you cannot engage with Harry Potter, rock on, mazel tov. You do you? That is fine. Zero judgment from me. Where it becomes is when you begin to shame me for my choices in how I'm going to interact with this very messy, very uncomfortable, absolutely nobody wins here situation. Alyssa Scolari [22:51]: Yes. Because that's where so much of the chaos happens is that point where it's like, well, why do you still have this Harry Potter poster? What does that make you? You're transphobic and you're actively contributing to the murder of so many people. That's where I see so much tension, so much tension. Kristen Donnelly [23:14]: I think, I mean, so some of the ways we vote is with our money and so I don't give more money to Harry Potter stuff. I have all the stuff that I'm going to have. I'm still going to read the books. I own them. I bought them already. What good is it going to do? But will I advocate for children to read it? I don't know, probably not. My niece and nephew are two. That'll be their parents' decision. Whatever. Kristen Donnelly [23:35]: But what I can do is have the really hard conversations with a lot of people in my life who are like, "But I'm not sure if trans girls should be in athletics." I'm like, "Okay, let's have that conversation." I can do the things where somebody says, "I'm not sure if somebody really knows they're trans at five," and I can say, "Okay, valid. It's something that I was confused about for a long time too." Do I think that I, as an outside stranger, have any right to say anything about that child's life? I do not. But I've loved a lot of trans folks who tell me they knew as early as five. I want to listen to them. Kristen Donnelly [24:10]: Here's the messiness. Guess what guys? This is all really new. This is all really new. Health insurances still aren't paying for surgeries. This is all still really new. We're going to figure this out together, but let's start by acknowledging the humanity in that person. Let's start by acknowledging that whatever they're going through is hard. Let's start by acknowledging that everybody wants to be heard, seen, and safe. Fundamentals of human life. Alyssa Scolari [24:36]: Yes. Kristen Donnelly [24:36]: Let's start there and then if it gets messy after that, I mean, it will, let's just assume it will. Alyssa Scolari [24:41]: Right. It always does almost. Kristen Donnelly [24:43]: It has to. Alyssa Scolari [24:44]: Got to for any real effective change to be made. Kristen Donnelly [24:48]: Or for any real effective relationships. Think about the people that you actually claim as deep and true relationships. Are any of those relationships clear cut? They're all messy. I love my husband and would like to throw him off a bridge a lot of days. Alyssa Scolari [25:02]: Yes. Yes. Kristen Donnelly [25:03]: And not just because of dumb little habits. There are fundamental things about each other that as we've grown, we've had to continue to make that covenant. We didn't just make a covenant 10 years ago. We make it all the time. Every relationship is like that. I hear that parenting is kind of hard. Just a rumor. Speaker 2 [25:24]: Right. It's just in the rumor mill. I've heard it [crosstalk 00:25:27]. Kristen Donnelly [25:26]: It's in the rumor mill. It sounds really hard and it sounds like there are a lot of parents who don't like their kids. There's a lot of kids who don't like their parents. Speaker 2 [25:35]: Yes. Kristen Donnelly [25:36]: It's because humans are messy. Alyssa Scolari [25:37]: Yes. I think that's part of the reason why I love being a therapist so much is because I get to hold space for that messiness. I love working with kids because then I also get to work with their families and then it becomes so much more mess. I mean, that's where the beauty happens and that's where I think so much gets heard because at the end of the day, no matter where you are and no matter what your beliefs are, as you said, the goal is to be seen, heard and understood and safe. Exactly. Exactly. Alyssa Scolari [26:14]: I love that. I mean, I love it so much and I think it's kind of like you said, I think it might be, again, for the listeners out there, this concept is like, it's very new in itself and it's very different than what I think we see on the internet a lot of days, but it's so important. If you get nothing else out of this, I want you to just take it and I want you to chew on it. I want you to think about it because it's really important. Alyssa Scolari [26:42]: I understand lots of things might be popping up for you about, well, how can we just allow this to happen and how can we just allow that to happen? But this is really the meat of how we need to ... This is it. This is the framework that we need to be adopting for conversations to be had, for relationships to be had, and for all of the hatred in this world to just go away a little tiny bit. Kristen Donnelly [27:13]: I think it's ... Erin and I are empathy educators because we say, and that's kind of how we frame ourselves because empathy isn't about emotions. It's about understanding. I will say since I started practicing empathy as my primary motivator through the world, as the mindset and the framework I used to move through the world, I'm a lot calmer. Even my doom scrolling doesn't get me as anxious as it used to. Alyssa Scolari [27:48]: Yes. Kristen Donnelly [27:48]: Nothing feels as overwhelming because in a certain way I can really quickly, I can make some decisions quicker. I can say, "That behavior I know is a hard boundary for me. Somebody engaging in that behavior is somebody I cannot be in authentic relationship with. They are still a human. They are entitled to all of that. I cannot be in relationship with them." If I'm ever put into a position where I need to work with them, one on one, one of the questions that we will need to talk about is that behavior. Alyssa Scolari [28:26]: Yes. Kristen Donnelly [28:27]: That's it. It's that clear cut. Around vaccines, I have a lot of immunocompromised people in my family. I was first in line to get the vaccine, first in line to get the booster. I'm just pump me with whatever you want. I don't care. I'm not a physical scientist. Everyone on the planet is saying this is a good idea. Cool. I'm in line. Yet we all are doing life with a lot of people that see these vaccines very differently. When I discover that somebody is not vaccinated, my policy very quickly becomes I cannot be within six feet of you without you wearing a mask. Alyssa Scolari [29:08]: That's your hard [crosstalk 00:29:09]. Kristen Donnelly [29:09]: If that is not something that you are willing to do, we will need to interact on Zoom. That's not tolerating them. That's not saying that they're not a good person or they're evil. That's simply saying you have made choices and I have made choices and this is the intersection of our choices. Alyssa Scolari [29:32]: Exactly. Kristen Donnelly [29:34]: Once I made that kind of policy in my life, and that's the phrase I use a lot, it's my policy, it's my policy to do this. Alyssa Scolari [29:42]: I love it. Kristen Donnelly [29:43]: Life got a lot less stressful. It just did. I get more curious. My question now a lot is like, "Well, I'd look to know why aren't you getting vaccinated?" Not judgy. Legitimately, I'm just really curious, what is your intersection of these decisions here? Alyssa Scolari [30:00]: Yes. The curiosity piece is so important. It's so important. Kristen Donnelly [30:05]: It's what changes the world. It's the only thing that ever has. No one also changes, I'll say this to you and you know this as a therapist, absolutely nobody changes their world view through shaming or statistics. Alyssa Scolari [30:16]: Thank you. I also would like to add that nobody changes their world view or their opinion on anything because of a fight on the internet. Kristen Donnelly [30:26]: Absolutely not. They might change their behavior because of shaming or statistics. Alyssa Scolari [30:30]: Exactly. Kristen Donnelly [30:31]: But as a therapist and as a social worker and as an empathy educator, I'm not looking to change behaviors. Alyssa Scolari [30:39]: No. Kristen Donnelly [30:40]: I'm looking to change world views and I'm to change how people move through the planet and that never changes through shaming, statistics or being yelled at on the internet. Alyssa Scolari [30:48]: Yes. Kristen Donnelly [30:49]: It just doesn't. Alyssa Scolari [30:50]: Yes. Kristen Donnelly [30:53]: It just doesn't. Erin and I have a YouTube channel and the comments we get sometimes are hilarious, where somebody's really coming for us and we're like, "Okay, dude." We want to respond back with Taylor Swift gifts and be like, "You need to calm down, man. You are bringing a lot of anger to a conversation that we are bringing zero anger to." Alyssa Scolari [31:11]: Relax, breath. Kristen Donnelly [31:12]: Do you need a hug? Do you need a puppy? Do you need a glass of water? What do you need in this moment because yelling at us isn't going to fix it. Alyssa Scolari [31:21]: Yes. Yes. Which is typically always, that's kind of my response. So many people will be like, "How do you work with people who have such differences? How do you work with people who refuse to get vaccinated?" It's just like, "Because I want to understand." Kristen Donnelly [31:41]: We have to. Alyssa Scolari [31:41]: We have to. If we don't understand than we are making no progress. Kristen Donnelly [31:49]: I respect that for some people, this is all overwhelming. Alyssa Scolari [31:52]: Absolutely. Kristen Donnelly [31:53]: The idea of trying to get to know new people or new ideas is really hard. We get the question like where should I start? Our answer is that we live in such a beautiful time of facilitated curiosity, start with a Netflix show. There is a really great documentary on Netflix right now called Crip Camp. Alyssa Scolari [32:14]: What is it? Kristen Donnelly [32:15]: Crip Camp. Alyssa Scolari [32:16]: I haven't heard of it. Kristen Donnelly [32:17]: It is about the foundations of the Americans with disabilities movement. Statistically, we'll bet that you don't know that whoever's listening to this within sound of my voice might not know somebody who is affected by the ADA Act. But spoiler alert, if you have any sort of mental health issue, you are because mental health is included in the ADA. It's a great documentary. It was Oscar nominated. It's an hour and a half of your life. Alyssa Scolari [32:47]: I've not heard of it. Kristen Donnelly [32:52]: That's the thing. You don't know where to start. This is all so overwhelming. Pick a thing. Alyssa Scolari [32:57]: One thing. Kristen Donnelly [32:59]: Pick a thing. Do the one thing. Watch a documentary, listen to a podcast, go to a cultural festival in your town and sit. Ask a question. Go to a restaurant where you can't pronounce the food and fumble your way through it. They're used to it. I promise. Alyssa Scolari [33:19]: Yes. They're so used to it. Kristen Donnelly [33:23]: Pick a thing. Alyssa Scolari [33:24]: Pick a thing. Pick a thing. Kristen Donnelly [33:27]: Pick a thing. There's no shame in not knowing unless you actively choose to ignore. Alyssa Scolari [33:34]: Yes. That is dangerous. That is dangerous. Well, thank you so, so much. I mean, this is like, I'm so passionate about this topic, because it absolutely pushes us outside of our comfort zone, especially as millennials. We were literally not taught to ask questions. We were taught to just truly coexist, which doesn't help. Like you said, it just fosters greater separation. Alyssa Scolari [34:03]: I really love this topic. I'm all about exploring uncomfortable things. This is one topic that I can see that could make people feel some kind of uncomfortable things, but that's [crosstalk 00:34:16]. Kristen Donnelly [34:16]: For sure. Alyssa Scolari [34:18]: Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for coming on the show today. I really appreciate it. Kristen Donnelly [34:24]: My pleasure. Thanks for all you're doing. Alyssa Scolari [34:27]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media, on Instagram. We are @lightaftertrauma. On Twitter, it is at Light After Pod. Alyssa Scolari [34:43]: Lastly, please head over to patrion.com/lightaftertrauma. To support our show, we are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Please head on over. Again, that's patrion.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

Most of us live in a world that glorifies holding onto youth for as long as we can. As we get older, we are taught to be less excited about our birthdays, hide our true age, and reflect back on our younger years with envy. But it doesn't have to be that way! What if we can find joy and peace with every passing birthday? What if we learn to reject the notion that aging is bad and instead look at the beauty that comes with turning another year older?   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Support the Podcast   Transcript Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. Happy to be here again for another episode. We are now in the new year, 2022. And I am excited for everything that we have ahead. I cannot believe this is the second year of the podcast running and it still feels like I just started it. So honestly, every episode is just such a gift. Alyssa Scolari [00:48]: I know that every episode I always say I'm so happy to be here, but it's true. I am so happy to be here. Now, if you haven't done so yet, please be sure to give us a follow on Instagram. Our handle is Light After Trauma. Have some really great posts and content there. Feel free to connect and reach out with me or reach out to me. Yeah, if you want to connect, that's a really great way to do so, is through my Instagram. Also, a reminder that we have a Patreon for the podcast that you can go ahead and find in the show notes. Alyssa Scolari [01:20]: If you are able to give even one, two, $3 a month, it would help so, so much to help keep this podcast running and to be able to continue to put out content for you guys. Does cost quite a bit to put this podcast together and get episodes for you every week. It runs about $800 a month. So thank you to the Patreons that we have so far. Appreciate you, love you so much. I love you all, whether you are able to give or not. At the end of the day, the goal is to be able to provide free mental health support for people who need it. Alyssa Scolari [01:57]: So if you can't, give no worries. But if you can, Hey, we'd really appreciate it. Even if it's just a one time thing and not a monthly thing. Whatever you can give goes such a long way in helping to ultimately keep this podcast running. And if you can't give financially, that is totally fine. If you still want to give, you can always do so by leaving a review for the podcast. Ratings and reviews are what help the podcast to grow and to get even more... To be seen by more people. And that is of course, the goal. We want as many people as possible to know that this type of support is available for them. So thank you. Alyssa Scolari [02:42]: On my end, on a personal note, I am hanging in there. I know many of you have reached out to give me well wishes. I unfortunately am just coming off of a seven day bender of absolute agony from the suspected endometriosis. Again, if this is all new to you my doctors are thinking that I have endometriosis. I have surgery scheduled for January 27th, and I'm really, really nervous because of the Omicron surge. Alyssa Scolari [03:16]: There's a possibility my surgery might get canceled. They've already canceled the first two weeks of January, all the surgeries have already been canceled. So if these numbers don't start to fall in terms of the cases, I am suspecting that my surgery is going to get canceled, which honestly, I can't even begin to process that. Because if you have listened to my episode, a few episodes ago, I did one about my struggle with endometriosis. And if you listened to it, then you know that it has been anything but easy. And this is by far the most difficult time of my life. Alyssa Scolari [03:57]: So I'm going to be absolutely devastated if it gets canceled and so beyond frustrated, because I have been in a ton of pain. I am so sick of doctors not taking my pain seriously. It's just been such a nightmare. So keep your fingers crossed and please send all of the well and the prayers and the healing vibes, because we need it. People really have been so good to us. I know that I, about a month ago or so, I'd say I put up that episode about my struggle with endometriosis. And I've been struggling for probably eight months and just have, haven't been ready to share. Alyssa Scolari [04:42]: And this past week, I also shared it on my personal social media to be able to ask for prayers and help and support. And everybody has been so good to me in terms of helping. And my in-laws have sent us gift cards for food. And people have just been really, really helpful because unfortunately I'm not really able to work a whole lot. I've had to cut down my work quite a bit because I'm just so sick right now. So there's a little update. We are hoping, wishing, praying that I am able to get my surgery in two and a half weeks. Alyssa Scolari [05:27]: Fingers crossed people, fingers crossed. And so today we're going to be talking about aging and getting older. And this topic is always relevant, but it's especially relevant for me because on Thursday, January 6th, I turned 30 and I launched into a new decade. Now, I've always been a big birthday girl, love birthdays, love my birthday, love other people's birthdays. My parents always made me feel really special during my birthday. Alyssa Scolari [06:06]: It was never something that was just looked over. So birthdays were pretty big for me. And I've never had a birthday that I just didn't want to sell until this year. And it's not because I was afraid of the number 30, because I really wasn't. In fact, I've actually been looking forward to 30 and embracing the new decade. I think because a lot of studies show that your thirties are the decade, which provide the most happiness. People report loving their thirties the most when they look back on their lives. But also, I don't know, I've just always felt like this was going to be a really, really great decade for me. Alyssa Scolari [06:53]: And I still feel that way, but when I tell you I was absolutely dreading my birthday. And I think it's because I never, in a million years could imagine that I would've turned 30 in such a state of being weak and fatigued and in pain. I was in pain pretty much all day on my birthday. And my quality of life is so poor. Because of my surgery, we really weren't able to go anywhere or do anything because we are isolating because we can't get COVID. I can't risk having my surgery be canceled. So we've been really just hanging out with just my husband and myself and our dogs. Alyssa Scolari [07:43]: And as a result, we really weren't able to do anything at all. And I was in pain all day because I had another flare for my, again, suspected endometriosis. The surgery will confirm. But I had another flare and I was in so much pain, screaming, throwing up for days on end. And then because of all of the intense pain, I have had stomach issues. And it's been pretty shitty. So I think for those who are reasons, I wasn't looking forward to my birthday. I wasn't ready for it. Alyssa Scolari [08:23]: It just, wasn't how I pictured turning 30. Honestly, we were planning on going on vacation for our birthdays. David's birthday is four days before mine. So his birthday's January second. And we were actually planning on waking up in Disney World. And that would've been a great way to celebrate 30, but instead I woke up in pain after barely sleeping all night. And as soon as I opened my eyes and saw that it was my birthday or remembered it was my birthday, I sobbed. And I pretty much cried all day long. And I've done a lot of reflecting. Alyssa Scolari [09:11]: And I think the emotion that came up the most for me was like I said, just grief over not being where I thought I would be in my life. I thought I would be so much better and healing and able to enjoy life. And right now, I'm kind of just surviving. But it got me thinking about how many people struggle, chronic illness aside, endometriosis aside, it really got me thinking about how many people struggle with getting older. Alyssa Scolari [09:55]: And listen, some of you might be listening to this and you're probably thinking, if you're not my age, then you're thinking one of two things. You are either younger than me, and you're thinking, holy shit, 30 is so old. Or you're older than me and you're thinking, what is she talking about, 30 is literally so young. So honestly, at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter how old you are because there are always going to be people that think you're old. Alyssa Scolari [10:26]: And then there are always going to be people that think you're young. Even when you're 70, talk to a 90 year old and they think you're a spring chicken. So aging is just, it's such a fascinating concept. And so many people get so stressed out over it. And I think, or at least I've witnessed in my, both my personal recovery and my professional life. My professional career, I've witnessed trauma survivors having a much more goal time with aging. And I think that this is partially because we already feel like we've lost so much time due to our trauma. Alyssa Scolari [11:09]: So much has already been taken from us that growing older, we're, no, where is the time going? And the clock is running out. And we're also afraid to grow older because we've already been so traumatized that we don't know what trauma waits for us in the future, because unfortunately, life can be full of traumatic moments. Sometimes life is full of amazing and incredible moments as well, but life can also be full of traumatic moments. And I think that's also part of the reason people get so afraid, trauma survivors in particular. But as a whole, society really has an issue with aging. Alyssa Scolari [11:55]: And whether you have a trauma history or not, all of that aside, it's partially, and mostly because of how much we glorify youth. And I won't even say glorify, we obsess. We, dare I say, fetishize it. And I am using that word because I believe that we do. I've seen it, right? Especially when it comes to women. Right, men get older and we talk about having... The trendy thing is having a hot dad bod. But women aren't called sexy for their mom bods. No men are called sexy, right? George Clooney, is how old is he? Alyssa Scolari [12:45]: But he's the sexiest man alive. But how often do we see older women being called sexy? We really don't. So there's definitely a huge bias there when it comes to men versus women. Women are definitely not allowed to age. Women are expected to be, and this is why I say fetishize, because women are expected to sort of look like a pre-pubescent girl at all times, which is no fat on their bodies, really narrow hips, zero body hair whatsoever. Alyssa Scolari [13:22]: Things like that. Women are expected to have these features that we only really have pre-puberty. So that's definitely a huge part of it. Our society is obsessed with youth and chasing youth. And the ageism is real. And I don't feel like ageism gets nearly enough attention. It is rooted in almost everything. Ageism doesn't get attention because there are other issues happening, right? I think a lot of people feel like, well, we have bigger fish to fry. But we really don't do a very good job at taking care of our elderly. Alyssa Scolari [14:03]: In other cultures, in many cultures, getting old is a privilege. Being old is something to celebrate, but not necessarily in, definitely not in the United States. Not sure what country you are in when you're listening to this. I live in the United States and getting old is just something to freak out about all of the time. And I hear it everywhere I go. People are, especially from this past birthday that I had. People will text me and be, "Oh my God, can you believe you're 30? When did you get that old?" Alyssa Scolari [14:43]: Or, "Has the real world set in for you?" Or just things like that, that sort of hint at this fact that I should be anxious or worried about being 30 or people will always say, "Ugh." this is one of my favorites, right? "Don't get old kid. Don't get old." People would say that to me all the time or another personal favorite. And this is something that I find parents often say to their children, not all parents, but a lot of parents say, "You don't know how good you have it as a kid." Alyssa Scolari [15:21]: And again, right? We are glorifying childhood. But even in that sentence alone, we are telling children and we are telling people that getting older is a horrible thing. Being older is a horrible thing. Honestly, though, I don't see it that way. You could not pay me to be a kid again. And it's not because of my trauma history. I mean, maybe it is on some subconscious level, but I don't really think it is. Look at how hard it is to be a kid. You really don't know anything about the world. Alyssa Scolari [16:00]: You're dependent on everybody. You have to go to school every single day. You got to wake up early. You have to go to school and you have to sit there and you have to listen to shit that you probably don't like. Could you imagine as an adult listening to this, having to go to social studies class every day, if you absolutely hate social studies or geometry class? Fuck no. Kids have to sit there all day. Then they have to come home. Then they have to do hours worth of homework. Alyssa Scolari [16:29]: And I'm referring to, I guess, maybe teenagers, but they also have to figure out where they fit in, in the social jungle that is high school or middle school or even elementary school. Because elementary school is no walk in the park these days either. With social media kids know way, way more. They're very advanced and bullying starts at a really young age. Kids have to figure all of this out. And they care so much about what other people think. It is a really hard thing to be a kid. I am loving being an adult, right? Yes. I have to make my own money. I can't depend on anybody for anything. Alyssa Scolari [17:13]: But with that also comes this sense of freedom and excitement that my life is mine to make. Yes, it's scary. But I'm the one in control here for the most part. Obviously, the universe is in control, but I have much more of a say in how my life goes. I don't have to see people I don't like. I don't have to spend time with people I don't like. I can buy what I want. I can go where I want. If I'm having a bad day, I can get in the car and leave. Kids can't do that. So you couldn't pay me to go back and be a kid. It was a nightmare to be a child. Alyssa Scolari [17:51]: And with every year that I've gotten older, I have appreciated myself more and more and more. And I have given less and less of a shit about what other people think. I trust myself more. I become better able to manage my emotions instead of lashing out at people. I become more mature. I develop a lot more wisdom. So yeah, I can probably never do a Cartwheel again. I don't know that my back would allow that. But honestly, that's fine. I don't need to do a Cartwheel because I can make my life exactly what I wanted. And that's such a beautiful thing when it comes to aging. Now, a lot of people also freak out about their body changing, their metabolism changing as they age. Alyssa Scolari [18:59]: All of that stuff is fine, is normal. I actually don't know the science about if your metabolism really does change a whole lot as you get older. I really don't know the answer to that, but it doesn't matter because this is what our bodies are supposed to do. And it's our job to lean into that. It's our job to trust that, not to fight it. But that's what our society says we need to do. So, so much of embracing aging is really changing your mindset and noticing what is ageism. Alyssa Scolari [19:38]: What is discrimination against people who are getting older. Now again, 30 year olds really aren't getting discriminated against, but I'm talking about people of all ages. Another way that we can help to embrace the aging process, I believe is by looking it right in the face. I know people like to say things like, "Oh, once I hit 30 years old, I stopped counting numbers" or, "Oh, once you hit 30, you really don't celebrate your birthdays anymore." And I say, [inaudible 00:20:15] it is a privilege to turn another number, no matter what that number is. Look it right in the face. Because the more we run from something, the more likely it is to catch up with us and bite us in the ass. Alyssa Scolari [20:30]: Look your age in the face. See what emotions are coming up for you. Are those emotions that you're feeling rooted in your own internalized ageism? Is there something that you wanted to do last year that you didn't get to do, and is that why you're hesitant to turn a new age this year? Stare it in the face and know that it is such an honor to be the age that you are at. Not everybody gets to live as long as you have, no matter what your age is. I think that doing that has been really, really helpful for me. I have never been one to be ashamed of or hide my age. And I have found that that helps so much. Alyssa Scolari [21:23]: So even when I was having a lot of big feelings about turning 30, I had to reflect and really try to understand, okay, what has me so upset? And after a lot of deep reflection, I realized that I truly think it's because of all this pain that I'm in. Because I never pictured myself turning 30 and feeling so sick. That's what I think has done it for me. Now, here's another thing that I would recommend, that I think is really helpful. Look at the people around you or the icons in your world. Listen, a lot of people have hit fame and glory and become TikTok famous, Instagram, famous, singers. What have you, when they were young. Alyssa Scolari [22:15]: But look at people like Betty White, may she rest in peace. I think her last film was the Proposal with Ryan Reynolds and Sandra Bullock. And she was in her eighties. And when I look at people like that, I really start to feel so much more accepting of my own aging process. Because if Betty wasn't in her eighties or seventies or whatever, she would've never been so perfect for that role. As she got older, she fit into different roles in her life that just made her. Or I'm sorry, I should say different roles in TV, in movies. Alyssa Scolari [23:04]: And she was perfect because of her age. And I like to think of that as really a metaphor for us. As we get older, we become more suitable to take on different roles, whether that looks like a parent, whether that looks like foster parents, whether that looks like volunteering, whether that looks like opening up your own charity, starting your own charity or foundation, whatever that may look like, writing a book, getting a different career. Alyssa Scolari [23:36]: I don't know many people who became super, and I'm not talking about Hollywood type people, I'm talking about just regular folks. I don't know that many people who figured out the answers to everything and became super successful and rich all before they were 35. I mean, I just don't. So there's so many things to think about when it comes to this aging process that, hey, you know what? Aging might not be a bad thing. Aging means wisdom. Alyssa Scolari [24:07]: Aging means more success. Aging means more opportunities to continue to do different things in your life. There's so much to look forward to at all of the stages. I think about the opportunity to be a grand mom. Could you imagine how cool must that be to get to hang out with babies and then give them back? I can't wait. I can't wait to be a grand mom. That sounds amazing. I can't wait to be retired and have nothing to do, but sit around and knit or rent an RV and go travel all of the states in the country. It sounds amazing. Can I do that now at 30? No, I have responsibilities. I have to work. I don't have, nearly enough money seemed up for retirement, but I can't wait for that day. Alyssa Scolari [25:03]: I mean, I can and I can't, right? Because every age of life I think brings such gifts and they're unique gifts. And I have gifts to discover with every passing day. And so do you. So I want you to please try to remember that. And now, of course, when it comes to the physical signs of aging, listen, that's something that we can't control. I mean, we can, to some degree with Botox and fillers and all of these things. And if that's something that you want to do, go for it, absolutely go for it. At the end of the day, though, the aging process that I'm referring to and being able to embrace it is more of about internal than external. Yes. You know what? Our skin is going to sag. It's going to sag. Alyssa Scolari [25:55]: Our boobs are going to sag. Our butts are going to sag, whatever. We're just going to sag, but that's okay. It's okay. Because at the end of the day, we are all souls living in a meat sack. That is what I call our skin and our organs, a meat sack. That meat sack doesn't mean much. So let it get old. Honestly, it's a sign. It's a sign that you've done a lot with your life. Let it get old and embrace that and kick ageism in the ass. Because you, especially, if you are a trauma survivor, you've already had so much taken from you, do not let society's ageism take away the joys of aging because there's so much happiness to be found there. Alyssa Scolari [26:48]: So I hope this was helpful. Again, I know so many people really struggle about getting older and I, myself struggle at times. This isn't the most difficult thing for me simply because I've had to do a lot of internal reflection and I've really come to a place where I am okay with aging. Now, granted I am 30, which is semi-young to most people I'd say. So, I mean, ask me again in 20, 30 years. Alyssa Scolari [27:21]: And I don't know, maybe I'll be absolutely in a panic. But I do know that some of what I'm saying, there is some wisdom to be had in this conversation. Because I even see it with some of my, my clients. I see a lot of clients who are younger than they ask me how old I am or if my age comes up in the conversation, they're, "Holy shit. You're 29 or 30. Are you afraid?" And they're what 18, 19. And I'm, "No, I'm not afraid." They look at me like, I'm ancient. So I know that this definitely has relevancy. And I hope that this is helpful for you. Have a wonderful, wonderful week. I am holding you in the light and we will be back next week. Take care. I love you all. Alyssa Scolari [28:17]: Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are at Light After Trauma. And on Twitter, it is at Light After Pod. Lastly, please head over to Patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's Patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.  

Jennifer Burns is a southern California mom who spent years being a people pleaser and suppressing trauma before she decided to take her life back into her own hands. Today she is a healing artist, creating beautiful works of art with resin and healing crystals. On this week's episode, Jen shares her incredible healing journey and teaches us what healing crystals are and how they can be a very powerful tool in recovering from trauma.  Healing Art By Jen Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Support the Podcast Transcript Alyssa Scolari [00:00]: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari. Happy to be here as always. We've got a guest episode today. I'm really looking forward to this. I feel like I said that all the time. I definitely need to stop saying this, but I'm really excited to learn about today's topic, which is we're talking all things like crystals and things like that. Alyssa Scolari [00:49]: So, this has been such a hype, using your crystals and manifesting and things like that. But I'm really curious about, what does that all mean? It can sound very, very woo, woo. And it definitely turns some people off because they don't believe in it, but I definitely think there is something there. So, today, we are talking about that and I cannot wait to learn more. Alyssa Scolari [01:16]: And we have with us a very special guest, Jen Burns, who is a Southern California mom, wife, healer, artist and a trauma survivor. She's in the process of finishing up a book about her life, which has been a life of abandonment and adoption, and abuse and of course and most importantly, healing. Living a life that was created from a sea of survival, and then one day, she ended up rebirthing into an artist and a healer. Alyssa Scolari [01:49]: And I have had the pleasure of having some conversations with Jen in the past, and she is awesome. So, I'm really, really excited to have her on the show today. So, that being said, hi, Jen, welcome to the podcast. Jennifer Burns [02:04]: Hi, thank you so much for having me. Alyssa Scolari [02:08]: Thank you for being here. Jen is a dear, dear, dear friend of the podcast. She is an amazing, incredible woman who I truly would not know if it weren't for the podcast. So, thank you Light After Trauma for introducing me to Jen and her amazing talents because you are one talented woman. Jennifer Burns [02:33]: Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [02:37]: So, before we get into your talents, I guess, can you share a little bit about your backstory? I know that you wanted... you were very intentional about your decision to come on the show. So, there's a reason for that. Would you mind talking about that? Jennifer Burns [02:54]: Oh, I would love to share a bit of my story. Just a regular mom, right? I have three beautiful children. I'm a wife and unfortunately suffered a really traumatizing childhood, just filled with a lot of abuse, abandonment, adoption. It's a huge, long, very complicated story. I do have a book that's going to be coming out, and it'll be very detailed. Jennifer Burns [03:25]: But I just was fine, right? I was becoming my young adult self in my twenties and didn't date a lot because of my abuse and stumbled upon, met this great guy. And there, my life started, right? But what I didn't anticipate is my pure survival mode that I was in at the time made me find a partner that led me down the road where I attached all of my thoughts, opinions, desires, everything on him. Jennifer Burns [04:08]: And I became exactly what he wanted me to be. I'm a chameleon and I do this in every aspect of my life actually. And I didn't know it though. You don't really even know you're doing it. And so, here I am flying along in my life and I have this great guy and we have the greatest relationship. Jennifer Burns [04:31]: And I used to pride myself on, "Oh, we've been together 20 years, and we've never had a single solitary fight. We've never had a single solitary argument." And everybody was looking at me like, "That's not normal." And I was like, "Yeah, but that's because I'm so amazing." Right? We're so amazing as a couple, and I'm so agreeable. Jennifer Burns [04:52]: Well, anyways, so flash forward, I'm a mother of three children now and I don't know exactly what happened except 42 years old. This is 10 years ago now. I woke up one day, and I was like, "Who is that? Who is that woman in the mirror?" I didn't recognize her. I didn't feel like her. I had literally lost the core of me, but I didn't even know it. Right? I just woke up and it was awful. It was a terrible feeling. I thought I was going to have a complete and utter nervous breakdown. Jennifer Burns [05:30]: And so, I started to dive in. And I had been so busy with the husband, so busy with my children. I mean, threw myself in. I was the doting wife. I was the over-the-top mom. I ran PTA. I mean, I was everywhere and I was everything for everyone, right, but nothing to myself, nothing. And I completely lost who I was. And it was almost as if my bucket was full and it was completely running over. And I didn't even want this to happen, but I literally was falling apart. Jennifer Burns [06:11]: And I was confused because I had always been in such control of my life. And I knew exactly what I was doing and how I was doing it. And I was happy, but I thought I was happy, right? It's just I was in that mode of, "I'm everything to everyone." And this is how I got through my childhood is being positive and showing everyone, "I'm fine. I'm fine." And I, I was not fine. Jennifer Burns [06:38]: And so, I believe that after all the years, your body and the universe and everything works together and you get to a point where it's like, "Nope, you've avoided yourself too long. And now, it's time, whether you want to do this or not." Alyssa Scolari [06:56]: Yep. Whether you're are ready or not, here we come. Jennifer Burns [06:59]: Yeah. So, I began working on me a little bit. And then, that was super uncomfortable. And I didn't even know what I liked, disliked, thought, nothing, except I was just sad and I was lonely. And I didn't even know I was losing my marriage. My marriage was falling apart because here I am, right, this perfect wife. And all of the sudden, I'm like, "I don't think I like you anymore. No and no." And it was terrible, literally. Jennifer Burns [07:35]: My kids were always fine because I could always fake it for them, right? This is 10 years in now. Now, my kids are 24, 21, 13. And now they can... and we're all empaths. And so, they're looking at me and they're going, "Mom, I know you're not okay because I can feel it. What is going on?" Jennifer Burns [07:59]: So then, I had to start sharing with my own children, right, here is this perfect mom who was just doing everything and portraying this beautiful image of positivity. And now, I feel like absolute shit. I feel like crap, and I'm falling apart. I had to get so vulnerable with my children. Jennifer Burns [08:26]: And that was awful because in my experience, your family are not necessarily the nicest people in your life. And I was so afraid of them not loving me if they really knew who the real me was, this broken woman, but really girl, right, that had never been fixed. I had never gone to therapy for anything. I happened to be involved with a man that was, I don't know, didn't really buy into all that. Of course, we pick, right, the opposite. Jennifer Burns [09:03]: And so, anyway, I've had to fight and fight and fight. Turns out now, my kids are my number one fans. They support me more than anyone on this earth. They have continually loved me. And it's a little bit of a role reversal, right? I can be sad and unsure. And they're the ones going, "Mom, you got this. You're good. You're okay." So, it's been huge. Jennifer Burns [09:35]: And only up until recently things with my marriage are significantly better as well. It took him a long time to come around though and really let go of what I had created. I did it. It's all my fault. I'm the one that created this perfect marriage. Right? So, here, he thought, we've been together 31 years, for 21 of them, this is his wife. And then, all of a sudden, I'm like, "Nope, never mind. Don't want to be that woman anymore." Alyssa Scolari [10:08]: Yeah. I mean, you speak too. There's so much that's in there, right? Even just starting with this concept of, and you use this word that I use very, very often, which is becoming a chameleon. I use that so often when it comes to either talking about my own trauma recovery, talking with my clients, because that often is what a trauma response is. We become a chronic people pleaser. And we take the shape of whatever that we take on the shape. We take on the likes, the beliefs of those around us. Jennifer Burns [10:52]: Yeah, because it keeps us safe. It keeps us safe. We know how to work a room. Right? Alyssa Scolari [10:57]: Exactly. Jennifer Burns [10:57]: We know, "Oh, I have to do this." Alyssa Scolari [10:58]: We are the best at it. Jennifer Burns [11:00]: We really are. But you don't even know you're doing it, really. It's so natural. It's so second nature. Alyssa Scolari [11:06]: It's a survival mechanism. Jennifer Burns [11:08]: It is. And then, I had to question, "Am I phony? Am I being fake and phony?" That's came up. And then, I realized, "No, no, no, that was a trauma response. I'm totally conditioned to survive like this." But now, I'm breaking it down. I never had a voice. I never thought that I could actually speak my mind. I saw other people doing it. And I thought, "Wow, how did they do that?" Jennifer Burns [11:38]: I'm so afraid of hurting someone's feelings, or my opinion was never good at all. I wasn't even allowed to speak in my home growing up. My opinion was nothing. I was invisible. And so, of course, in the real world, I thought, "Okay, I'm invisible. No one really cares what I have to say." Alyssa Scolari [11:57]: I'm going to continue to be invisible, yes. Jennifer Burns [11:59]: So, this is how I was. So, I now speak my mind. I say what I mean. And I mean what I say. And it is liberating and empowering. But the thing I found the most is my small little world around me. They didn't like it at all. They're like, "Whoa, who's this? Wait, you're not as soft and nurturing as you used to be." Right? Jennifer Burns [12:27]: I was finding my voice and speaking up for myself and setting healthy boundaries. And all of a sudden, this people, friends, family were like, "Oh no, I'm not sure I know who you are anymore." Right? So, it's been a journey for sure. Alyssa Scolari [12:45]: Yeah. And that in itself is again something that is so common, setting boundaries with people. When you've been living for everybody, but yourself, you tend to attract people in your life who become very used to that and almost dependent on the fact that you're always going to be there for them no matter what. Alyssa Scolari [13:05]: But then, you get to a point where you are no longer living for yourself. Or you're no longer living for other people. You're setting down, and people are like, "Who is that? I don't know that person. I don't really care for that person. Oh, you're doing things for yourself?" People don't like it. Jennifer Burns [13:25]: Yes, absolutely. I agree with that. And then, what also happens I think is they suck the life out of you by doing this, right? They literally just suck all your energy away from you. And you're so busy doing everything for them. And I had so many girlfriends that would call me. I was their counselor. I would fix everybody else's problems, but never spend the time and work on me. Jennifer Burns [13:56]: I had conditioned myself to be everything to everyone because that created some value in my life. It made me feel like, "See, you do matter. People do need you. They do want you." I mean, I was killing myself doing it though. I was really extending myself way too far. Alyssa Scolari [14:17]: Yeah, as so many, especially childhood trauma abuse survivors because we grow up thinking... we grow up with this idea that we are only worthy of love and we are only valuable so longer as we are useful to others. And the moment we are not is the moment where our intrinsic sense of worth becomes very, very shaky. Everything you're saying is... I think that so many people who are listening are going to relate because it's exactly how I felt. So many folks. Alyssa Scolari [15:01]: And so, for you, you discovered. How did you transform? I mean, you transformed yourself from the inside out. But then, you went on to transform your life from the inside out, your relationships with your children, your relationships with your husband. We are talking magnificent transformations, which, I mean, is incredible. Jennifer Burns [15:26]: Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [15:26]: Yeah, it's incredible in itself. Jennifer Burns [15:29]: It feels like it was this incredible endeavor. I appreciate you acknowledging it. Honestly, it was uncomfortable. And it was scary because I didn't really know what I was doing. And I think that us as survivors, we don't feel very confident about the choices that we make. And we do need all that external validation. We're not used to trusting ourselves. Jennifer Burns [15:55]: So, this is really what happened. I'm a very crafty person. I'm very creative. So, I always had an outlet like that. I used to be a wedding and event planner. I had my own wedding business for years. Oh, my God. It's amazing, amazing, amazing. But it's very fast paced. It's very last minute. You do everything in one day. It's a lot. Jennifer Burns [16:19]: And I was raising three kids, and I thought, "Oh, I need to do something else." But I always had to do crafts and I love to do... it was like I found that my mind could relax when I was crafting, but it would also not just relax. I call it floating into my childhood. I would float in and take little glimpses of my childhood. And then, I would float back out. I would be like, "Okay." And then, I'd float back out. Jennifer Burns [16:51]: I was constantly comparing, "Wow, look how good my kids have it. I'd have given anything for this kind of childhood." Right? When I would craft with them, I would teach them how to draw or paint. And it didn't matter, anything. Make flower arrangements. It just didn't matter. So, I took this to the next level. I started finger painting with my kids because I liked the way it felt in my finger. Alyssa Scolari [17:18]: The sensory, yes. Jennifer Burns [17:19]: Yes. It was way more. It was going deeper. And it was more raw and authentic. And it was just blending and it was the colors. And I was drawn to a color for a certain reason. And then, I started looking back and I thought, "Oh, these are so boring." I like that I painted that, but these are so boring. I want to embellish them somehow. And all of a sudden, I started finding different things to put on my paintings, and I found crystals. Alyssa Scolari [17:49]: Crystals. Jennifer Burns [17:50]: And I started picking up crystals and I was like, "Okay, am I crazy? I'm feeling something. What is this?" And I just got obsessed with crystals because of their energy. In certain times in my journey, I would be drawn to a different crystal because of their energy and what I was going through and my energy at the time. So, I started incorporating the two. Jennifer Burns [18:18]: And then, I started thinking, "Okay, how can I make these pieces permanent?" Because I didn't want to put a painting on a wall and then have it just fade over time or crystals fall off. And then, I found resin. And resin allowed me to permanently adhere the crystals to any surface. So then, I was like, "Oh my gosh." So, that's how my art came about. Jennifer Burns [18:46]: But as I dove into it deeper and deeper and deeper, I was not the only one being affected. I was just doing it for myself. And then, people would come over and they would see or feel something in my art and say, "Whoa, that..." and they could tell, "Wow, you were going through a dark time with that one." because I used all black obsidian. It's just Bloodstone and just different crystals that were really dark and heavy. Jennifer Burns [19:18]: But then, there could be this really gentle, bright pink rose quartz piece that was just pretty and soft and very loving. Right? Then people started asking me, "Well, would you make me one? And would you make me one?" And people were putting them in their homes and feeling the beautiful energy that would come off of them. Jennifer Burns [19:41]: Because now, I've gotten to the point as anybody in a craft, right? You learn to hone in on it a little bit more. I can work with a client now. And we can collaborate and I can set my intention in those crystals, and set it into their home. So, I can infuse them with the love and support, and strength or whatever it is they're needing and we can collaborate. And it's just a beautiful little marriage. Alyssa Scolari [20:10]: It's so beautiful. And I mean, I could talk about your artwork and I... for the listeners out there, Jen's website is linked in the show notes for today. When I tell you, if you've not done anything else, you need to go on, you need to look at this artwork. If you've never clicked on a link before in my show notes, let this be the one you do because- Jennifer Burns [20:34]: Oh, thank you. Alyssa Scolari [20:34]: ... her artwork is beautiful. And of course, that is something which you and I will absolutely be talking about that because I do want to get a piece from you for my office. And I knew that. We were talking and I saw your work long before I even moved to this new home. Alyssa Scolari [20:56]: And I showed my husband and, I was like, "Listen, when we move, we need to get a piece like this for our home." So, I'm really looking forward to that. So, I have some questions for you as I know some of the listeners might because there is so much crystal hype out there. Jennifer Burns [21:15]: Yeah, there is. Super popular now. Alyssa Scolari [21:18]: It is super, super trendy right now. But I have been trying to get to the bottom of what exactly it is. And I wasn't too sure. Right? Quick story, I wasn't too sure how I felt about the whole the crystal thing as I would call it. Lots of my clients would come in, and they would be like, "I have these crystals, and this does this. Then this is supposed to do that." Alyssa Scolari [21:50]: And I was like, "Okay, this is really cool." Not really sure if they're more than just rocks, but they're really pretty to look at. And I have had so many clients for so many years at this point be like, "Alyssa, you need to go and buy crystals. You need to get into this. It is so healing." Alyssa Scolari [22:11]: So, I was working with a marketing coach who sent me... I was searching for a house at the height of this wild housing market where homes were selling for $100,000 over asking price. And we could not find a home. When we would find a home that we fell in love with, it would be within minutes or hours, that house was already off the market with an offer that was $100,000 in asking price, all cash. It was a really, really stressful time. Alyssa Scolari [22:44]: We could not find a place to live. And my marketing coach, her name's [Pettya 00:22:52], she sent me this crystal. I don't remember the name of it, but it was blue. It was like a turquoise. Jennifer Burns [23:01]: It must be amazonite or something like that. Alyssa Scolari [23:03]: Yeah, something like that. Jennifer Burns [23:05]: Maybe a blue amazonite or something, yeah. Alyssa Scolari [23:08]: She was like, "I really want you to take this with you when you're going to look for homes." I shit you not, I took that out with me the next day when we went to go find a home. And we found this home that I live in now. We got it for asking price. Didn't pay a dime over asking price which is unheard of in this market. And I was blown away. Alyssa Scolari [23:38]: And then, I was like, "Okay, there might be something to this." Fast forward a few months, a couple weeks ago, my husband and I are in this cute little village near where we live, where there's lots of shops and nice little things. And there was this crystal shop. Now, I personally had never been inside a crystal shop before. And I went in, and I felt things. Jennifer Burns [24:02]: That's it. Alyssa Scolari [24:03]: Strange. I don't even have words for it. Jennifer Burns [24:08]: It's a vibration and an energy. Alyssa Scolari [24:12]: Yes, yes. While I was in there is that I noticed I kept coming back to this specific crystal. And I couldn't understand why because there were other crystals in there that were more sparkly or whatever. But there was a specific one I was very, very drawn to. And I left and I didn't look it up or anything. There wasn't a sign about what it's supposed to do for you. Alyssa Scolari [24:39]: I left and we were driving home and I was like, "I don't know why, but I can't stop thinking about that one crystal." And I went to go look it up. And for the last several months, I have been struggling with GI issues, hormonal regulation issues, so many health problems. I looked up what that stone is often used for, regulating hormonal imbalances, healing your GI system. And I was like, "Oh, shit." Jennifer Burns [25:15]: Yeah, there is something to this. Alyssa Scolari [25:17]: I have now entered the world. Jennifer Burns [25:19]: [inaudible 00:25:19]. Alyssa Scolari [25:22]: Yes. Jennifer Burns [25:23]: That's awesome. Alyssa Scolari [25:23]: Can you please explain to us how does this process work? What is this? How can it help? Where should somebody even begin if they want to get started? Jennifer Burns [25:36]: Okay. So basically, think about it like this, over millions of years, thousands of years, however far back you want to go, the earth creates heat and pressure, right? And when they mine these crystals, you don't know how long they've been there, sitting there, waiting for someone to find them. Jennifer Burns [25:59]: And all that heat and energy and pressure creates a vibration and an energy into that crystal. So, after they mine it and they might polish it, sometimes you'll get it in a raw form or a polished form, however it is, it is going to emanate an energy. It's going to give you a vibration and an energy. And you need to cleanse your crystals. That's a whole another process. Alyssa Scolari [26:25]: The selenite sticks, right? Is that what people use to cleanse them? Jennifer Burns [26:28]: They do. Yes, selenite. You use the full moon. You can use water. Don't use water on selenite though. It'll dissolve. But other than that, yes, selenite. You can just place one nice stick of selenite within your collection of crystals. And it will actually help cleanse all your crystals. Jennifer Burns [26:48]: Because if you think about it like this, once you pick your crystal and you can do it exactly how you do it, just walking around, feeling what its calling to you because it's... and it'll change. You could go into that shop tomorrow and you might be drawn to a completely different crystal now because you might need a different energy source. Jennifer Burns [27:09]: So, once you pick your crystal and you bring it into your home, I set my intention with that crystal. I would like it to protect my home. I have obsidian by my door because it blocks negativity from coming in, things like that. I love to have rose quartz in my bathroom because it's all about self-love and self-care. Amethyst is everywhere in my house because it's basically healing. It's all about healing and calming. Jennifer Burns [27:37]: I mean, I have crystals everywhere as you can imagine. But once you pick a crystal, it's all about allowing yourself to hold it. But that's the other thing. People will put a gorgeous display out and never touch those crystals. It's fine. You can do that. And it will still bring in gorgeous energy into that room. But you also want to pick that crystal up, feel it. Let that transfer of energy happen. Jennifer Burns [28:07]: When you hold someone's hand and you feel something, the same thing happens when you pick up a crystal. Especially if it's a crystal you need, you will definitely be called to what you need. I even had picked up before we had our call today. I have about six crystals here that I know would be amazing in your life right now. I have literally pulled out some crystals. I'll tell them to you. Alyssa Scolari [28:36]: That's amazing. Jennifer Burns [28:37]: I can do it later, but this one specifically had to do with calming, healing and fertility. So, I don't know why I'm picking that up, but I am. So, just things like that. Things maybe just in the root chakra. Alyssa Scolari [28:54]: But you don't know why you're picking that up? Jennifer Burns [28:58]: Well, I know why, but I didn't want to say it out loud. Alyssa Scolari [29:03]: Oh, no. Jennifer Burns [29:03]: I mean, we've never talked about this. So, you know what I mean. I didn't want to make any assumptions over a recording. You know what I mean? Alyssa Scolari [29:12]: Yeah. No, that's fascinating to me because yes, I am actually seeing a surgeon tomorrow for endometriosis. Jennifer Burns [29:21]: Oh, wow. There you go. Now, funny story, it's not funny actually, about two years ago now, I used to take care of my aunt. And she had dementia, and she had no children. And I was the closest thing to a daughter to her, and very old school just won't talk about any of the toxicity or any of the abuse that happened in our family. You can't even talk to her about it. Jennifer Burns [29:52]: And her sister was one of my main abusers which was my mother. And you just couldn't talk to her about it. So, you just had to... I love her, but she was mean. And she had no filter and she would just say horrible things to me. And I was very upset by her all the time. Jennifer Burns [30:10]: So, jump in, I would have to take care of her because there literally was no one in the family. And I've already cut off this whole side of my family. So, this was very, very difficult for me. So, I'm going somewhere with this story. What this means is when I started taking care of her and she could still speak, and she would say awful things. And I started getting sick. I started getting sicker and sicker. Jennifer Burns [30:42]: I was fine. I wouldn't stand up for myself or anything because she's old and she didn't really... you're just nice like that. Right? But internally, I was getting so sick and I ended up getting sick at my other abuse point which was in my root chakra or my uterus. Right? So, I started bleeding out. Jennifer Burns [31:07]: I know this is a lot of information. But basically, I started hemorrhaging to the point where I couldn't stop. I couldn't stop at all. So, I had surgery and I was fine. And I went back to my aunt. And I was on the plane to go see her. I have had surgery. I'm fine now. I'm not bleeding anywhere. And I'm on the plane. And I'm about to get off the plane to go see her, and I have a complete explosion. Alyssa Scolari [31:36]: What? Jennifer Burns [31:37]: I know this is so much information. I'm a total open book, but yeah, it was really scary. Alyssa Scolari [31:43]: Oh, my gosh. Jennifer Burns [31:44]: My point is, my sickness was so deep within. I had to end up having surgery again. So, my point is, I grabbed my crystals, this, and I was new at this point with crystals. I didn't really understand the power. I got my crystals and I got crystals specifically for that area, my root chakra. Lots of red crystals, right, your carnelians, your bloodstone, moonstone, things like that. And I healed so beautifully, so quickly. And it was beautiful. Jennifer Burns [32:25]: Even my doctor was like, "You are doing amazing considering you just had two surgeries in two months." kind of thing. Crystals have been great for me personally. I use them in every aspect of my life. I use them every single day. Not only in my work, which I don't even consider work. I get to just have this job where I focus on me every day all day now, which is the opposite of what my life used to be. Jennifer Burns [32:56]: It's also ritualistic. And I think that is probably the biggest change in my life is I create my world to be so aesthetically pleasing with music, with lighting. I literally sit and I speak to my guides and I ask them to work with me daily. And I pick the crystals. And if I've collaborated with someone, I'll be pulling them in and having conversations with them and getting to know them, so that I can set the intention of this piece that's going to go in their home. Jennifer Burns [33:32]: And then, I sit for hours. Literally, I can spend eight hours in my studio, literally placing each and every crystal intentionally. And then, I set it in resin and it is just the most fulfilling thing I've ever done in my life. And at the end of the day, I feel so internally at peace and that is new. I've never felt at peace in my life. And this is where it's coming from now, my work. And I started therapy three months ago because I was finally- Alyssa Scolari [34:12]: Congratulations. Jennifer Burns [34:12]: Thank you. I was finally at a point in my life because of my work now that I could allow my brain to go there. And so, I started EMDR, amazing, life changing. Alyssa Scolari [34:29]: Amazing. That's what I've heard. Jennifer Burns [34:31]: Literally. I can't really explain it except it works. It literally reprograms your brain. And you don't even... you feel silly in the moment. Is this really doing something? I can't even tell you how it has cleared the cobwebs of abuse in my body. It's amazing. Alyssa Scolari [34:54]: It is so amazing. And for the listeners out there, if you are curious to learn more about EMDR, it is a highly effective treatment for trauma. And you actually can go back earlier on in my episodes. I had Melissa Parks, I believe her name is. I mean, she was incredible and she breaks down exactly what EMDR is. So, please feel free to go back and check that out. But yes, EMDR is phenomenal. Alyssa Scolari [35:24]: Because I think so much of trauma, when we look at trauma in the western culture, it's so disembodied, right? It's just like we're not looking at how trauma is stored in your body. And I think EMDR does a decent job at trying to address trauma in a way that's not just talk therapy. Jennifer Burns [35:44]: Exactly. Because in a way, you really have to think about a moment that you want to work on. And that is the beauty of EMDR is you deal with one particular incident at a time. And for me, it was like I was getting to the point like, "Do I have something I need to think about?" Jennifer Burns [36:06]: I could literally do so many particular incidences, and it is so specific. It's not scary at all. It's actually quite a soothing process. And I don't know how it works in your brain. I really would love to learn more about that part. I'm just trusting my therapist and going with it. And I listen to everything. Alyssa Scolari [36:30]: Requires trust. Jennifer Burns [36:31]: It really does. But also, 100%, you have to be so open. And you have to know that it's going to work. You have to know that it's going to get in there and fix you. And I think that is the part of therapy I was always frightened of is I thought it just still seemed so overwhelming. And I didn't know what I was going to say or what was going to come out of me. Jennifer Burns [36:56]: And I also felt like, "How on earth am I going to go do that? And then, go back and go do the dishes, and cook dinner and be with my children." And I couldn't do that, right, because I'm always so high, positive. And so, this has allowed me to really go there, but not feel like I can't now go back and join my life right after. It's fine. Jennifer Burns [37:22]: Anyway, it's a beautiful process. And so, combined with... and I've tried lots of different things, but the EMDR, my art, and literally every single day choosing to take the time, I do it like a job now. I spend time on me as if it was my job. Now, I'm lucky. And I do get to do that. I don't have to actually leave my house and go to a job, 9:00 to 5:00, but I choose me as a job right now. And it's working. It's absolutely working. Alyssa Scolari [37:57]: So important. Yes, I have full body chills from all the things that you've said. I think it's so fascinating. And it's so fascinating that one of the things that came to you was a crystal that's supposed to help with fertility issues. It's just oh, full body chills. Jennifer Burns [38:19]: Exactly. Alyssa Scolari [38:19]: It's wild to me. Jennifer Burns [38:21]: Well, I used to mentor people intuitively, but this was before people knew that word. That word's thrown around a lot now. I mean, it really is. And I would never tell anyone, "Yeah, I'm an intuitive." They'd be like, "You're a what?" That's weird. But I would just know things about people and I call it getting a download. And I would get really quiet. People don't get quiet enough. Because when you get quiet, it is amazing what comes to you. Jennifer Burns [38:53]: And I think us as women, and I know it happens for men too, but especially women because we do everything based off our gut, which is never wrong by the way ever. If you sit there, you will get information on anyone. I mean, especially if you're in the presence. Alyssa Scolari [39:13]: You just have to be open to it. Jennifer Burns [39:14]: You just have to be quiet and open. And also, I really believe for me personally, I had to cut people out of my life. And I had to not feel bad about it anymore. I felt guilty. I felt like I can't do that. But people didn't understand it and thought I was being mean. But you know what? You have to surround yourself with beautiful people and people that think like you. Jennifer Burns [39:42]: And I still struggle sometimes with the family part of it. Because when the holidays are coming, right, I'm like, "Oh, I feel this sense of obligation to show up." But you know what? I don't anymore. And I don't even feel bad anymore because it's okay. It's for me. It's all okay. And it's for me. And they're not really banging down my door anyway, right? They're not really asking. So, it's okay. Alyssa Scolari [40:13]: Yes, it is so okay. I've had that experience too. Thanksgiving was the first holiday that I chose to spend it with who was safe. Jennifer Burns [40:21]: There you go. Safe, that's it. That's the perfect word. Alyssa Scolari [40:25]: Yeah. I mean, it was incredible. It was just incredible. And like you said, my family didn't knock down my door. Nobody was knocking down my door. So, it was like, "Well, I went where I felt the most loved, and it ended up being really fun." Jennifer Burns [40:42]: Oh, see, there you go. I think as trauma survivors, we're just constantly seeking safety and that soft place. And we never trust it. We always are expecting there to be this element of uncomfortableness somewhere. Jennifer Burns [40:57]: And it's so beautiful to choose joy now and sit in a place like that filled with family or friends that you do love and love you and accept you. You go home and you're like, "Oh, my gosh. I actually enjoyed this. And nothing bad happened today [crosstalk 00:41:16], which is amazing." My God, what a thought. Alyssa Scolari [41:20]: What a dream. I know. Jennifer Burns [41:23]: So simple. Alyssa Scolari [41:24]: Yes, and a place like that comes from, just like you said, making you a full-time job and making caring for yourself a full-time job. It's a beautiful- Jennifer Burns [41:33]: Yeah. And it doesn't have to be forever. Just even if it's a week, a day, a month, whatever you can to sit and really self-love, self-love. You don't have to have crystals to do this. Just literally get quiet. I talk to my guides and I say, "You know what? What do you have for me today?" or, "I really need your support today. I'm having, for some reason, a very nostalgic day and I'm sad." Jennifer Burns [42:01]: And in fact, I was thinking about this yesterday. The Christmas music has come on our radios and which is awesome. It's my favorite time of year. And I've created beautiful holidays in our family. That is my thing is holidays. We all get so excited now. Jennifer Burns [42:20]: I was thinking while I was driving my daughter to school. And I thought, "Oh, my gosh. She's so excited about Christmas, and so am I." But back when I was her age, I used to dread Christmas because I was home stuck with them. Right? And I would never enjoy Christmas. It wasn't enjoyable at all. I would just be living in fear. Jennifer Burns [42:44]: And so, I thought how beautiful it is to turn that around. And instead of hang onto that and always hate Christmas, now, I absolutely love it. And it's my favorite. Because I think again, you have to make a choice. You have to decide that was then. That's over. And this is now. And I think a lot of people can't differentiate that and get out of that. Alyssa Scolari [43:08]: It's a lot of hard work. It is a lot of hard work, which is why I have the utmost respect for you. I mean, I just- Jennifer Burns [43:16]: Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [43:18]: I love talking to you. Jennifer Burns [43:19]: Thank you so much. Oh, I love it. This has been so fun. Alyssa Scolari [43:23]: It's so great talking to you. And I learned so much. I was so excited for this, to do this interview. And I know that I had to postpone and it took me a little while, but truthfully, it's amazing. Jennifer Burns [43:38]: Glad you're good. Alyssa Scolari [43:38]: The timing of the universe is impeccable because I would not have had those experiences with crystals if we had done the interview back when we initially talked about it. Jennifer Burns [43:50]: That's right. Alyssa Scolari [43:52]: So, yeah, the timing of the universe is impeccable. Jennifer Burns [43:59]: I remind myself every day, "I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be today." Alyssa Scolari [44:04]: That's exactly it. Yep, I am exactly where I'm supposed to be in this moment. Yes, that is a really important thing to remember, all of us. Jennifer Burns [44:15]: That's right. Alyssa Scolari [44:16]: Now, can you give out your website? It is going to be on the show notes. But can you just say what your website is so that people can find you? Jennifer Burns [44:23]: Yes, absolutely. So, it's healingartbyjen.com. And I also have an Instagram, @healingartbyjen, and it's constantly being updated. And you can also contact me through there to do commission pieces and special custom pieces for your houses. Alyssa Scolari [44:45]: All right, listeners, you know where that website is. Go find it. Her work is so breathtakingly beautiful. Jennifer Burns [44:54]: Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [44:55]: And I know you are in the process of writing a book. I would absolutely love to have you back on when you are promoting your book and things like that. Jennifer Burns [45:05]: Okay. Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [45:07]: So, this is not the last we will be hearing of Jen. Jennifer Burns [45:11]: Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [45:11]: And thank you so, so much for coming on the show today. Jennifer Burns [45:13]: Oh, thanks, Alyssa. This has been so fun. Alyssa Scolari [45:17]: Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma. And on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Alyssa Scolari [45:34]: Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So, please head on over again. That's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

Feeling overwhelmed by the push to make a New Year's Resolution? Tune in to learn more effective ways to create and achieve your 2022 goals. Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Support the Podcast   Transcript Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hi everybody. Welcome back. This is the last episode of 2021, which I can't believe honestly. It's wild that we are now going on to the third calendar year of podcasting. I am really excited. Happy Holidays. Merry Christmas, if you celebrate Christmas. Happy Kwanza. Happy Hanukah. I know Hanukah was a while back, but Happy Hanukah, nonetheless. I hope that the holidays have treated you with love and kindness, because we all need a little bit extra of that, especially during these times. Alyssa Scolari [01:01]: Today, I have a rather short episode coming at you. Not going to be super long. We will get back into the regular swing of things in 2022. I have a guest episode coming at you for the first episode of the new year, but today I wanted to talk a little bit about an alternative approach or what I think is a little bit more of an effective approach to new year's resolutions. Alyssa Scolari [01:29]: Now that the holidays, the religious holidays, so to speak, are behind us, which I had a very good holiday by the way. Not that any of you asked, but I just thought I would put that out there. Last year was really hard because of the pandemic and this year, I mean, things are still really bad, so we didn't do anything huge. I took off this week, so I am just vibing and relaxing. I currently actually am in a onesie. Alyssa Scolari [01:59]: Yes, I am about to be 30 years old and I am in a onesie and I am not ashamed about it. I cannot believe that I have never worn a onesie before now. Friends, it is the best thing ever.And I actually don't think that they're called... I don't think they're called onesies. I think that's what you call them for like babies or whatever but you know what I mean? One of those like outfits that are just all one piece. I guess it could be like a jumper, but mine is like a lounge jumper that I have that I got for Christmas and I am in heaven. I am vibing in that as we speak. I have a blanket wrapped around me, some hot chocolate. I am in full relaxation mode and it's actually snowing out here today in Pennsylvania, which is really magical. Alyssa Scolari [02:51]: If you know me, you know I love the snow. Love, love, love it. So that's where I'm at this week and yeah, it's really nice to have a week off. I know that the last solo episode I put out was really heavy because I was talking a lot about my struggles right now and my battle with endometriosis. I know that that it was an episode that was hard to listen to. Endometriosis is really a life altering disease, but you know, as an update I am doing okay right now. Knock on wood, I have not had a ton of pain. Thank goodness. It's really nice to get a break and yeah, so I'm doing okay right now. Thank goodness. Thank you for who reached out, especially after hearing that episode and just connected with me and wanted to touch base. I really appreciate it. It was very tough being that vulnerable, but I know that I'm not the only one who feels the way that I feel, so I thought it was really important to share. Alyssa Scolari [03:57]: So okay. Transitioning back to new year's resolutions. I have always hated this holiday and looking back on it, I mean, I think because nobody really hates a holiday unless you have some kind of personal or vulnerable reason for hating it. I have a very strong reaction to new year's and I think it's because of all of the, I guess, emphasis on drinking and partying and I was never really into that, but I think honestly more than that, I also, when I was younger and in like in high school or whatever, I was never invited to any parties. I never really had any opportunity to party on New Year's Eve, but now I'm kind of like over it. I don't really have any interest in it. Alyssa Scolari [04:53]: So as I've gotten older and I've become, I think less bitter about not being invited to the parties, which I totally was a bitter teenager, I realize that New Year's is about more that just parties. It's really about having a resolution, if you believe in that. Some people don't and I never really did. I was always like, oh, resolutions. It's just a setup because you're just going to fail but I think that I was always looking at that from a very like diet culture, frame of mind, where everybody's New Year resolution was, I'm going to lose weight this year. I am going to become a size, whatever. Alyssa Scolari [05:39]: I remember in years past, my friends or one of my friends, actually took out a pair of jeans that she used to fit into, honestly when she was a teenager. So like it doesn't even make logical sense that she would fit into them now because she is an adult, but she took out her jeans that she wore from when she was a teenager and she hung them up in her room every day, as a reminder that it's her New Year's resolution to get down to that size. Alyssa Scolari [06:07]: I think that's part of why I also resented New Year's cause it was just like diets and weight loss and this and that and it felt like so much pressure. I think that New Year's resolutions generally don't often work out, or people don't usually follow through, because the resolutions themselves are so overwhelming and so vague. Y'all know how I feel about diets and diet culture at this point. I'm just using this as an example. Alyssa Scolari [06:41]: If somebody wants to lose weight, they make their New Year's resolution, I'm going to lose weight or I'm going to get down to a jean size, X. But then there's really no full-detailed planning on how that's going to happen. I'm going to buy this to gym membership and maybe I'm going to join Weight Watchers, which again, I'm putting this out there, not because I believe in any of this, because you all know that I don't. I am not a fan of diet culture whatsoever, but this is what people, or this is what I have found, most of us and myself included at one point, often do. Alyssa Scolari [07:18]: I'm going to join Weight Watchers. I'm going to join a gym. I'm going to hang my pants up so I can have that daily motivation that I need to lose weight and that's kind of just this reminder. But that feels so overwhelming, right? It's like, now I have to learn this brand new diet and then I have to try to find time in my schedule to go to the gym three to four times a week. Then I have to be looking at these pants every day and feel guilty that I am not that size right now. It's like very, very, I don't know, overwhelming. I know I've said that several times, but that's just how it feels and I think that the same thing could be said for other types of goals that people have. Alyssa Scolari [08:03]: Sometimes your goal is I want to make more money this year. Or sometimes your goal is I want to learn, I don't know. I want to learn how to crochet or maybe more goals related to like your mental health. I want to beat my depression this year. Or I want to love myself more this year. Things like that. All amazing goals, right? Love those goals, but they're super vague and there's a million different ways we can get it to those. We can reach those goals. Alyssa Scolari [08:44]: So, here's what I would recommend. Here's what works for me. I do not really put any kind of like major stakes into New Year's resolutions. I'm like just kind of like, oh, this year I really want to focus on X, Y, and Z. If it doesn't happen, I'm not beating myself up over it because I just don't. I'm always making new goals for myself and I guess I just personally don't feel the need to create like a New Year's resolution list. Alyssa Scolari [09:12]: But if this is what you want to do, I have worked with a lot of clients and I have chatted with a lot of friends who often put a lot of weight into their New Year's resolutions. So I could definitely offer some tips on how that can be done and what I recommend is making your goals much, much smaller. Alyssa Scolari [09:36]: So, if your goal is to practice more self-love. Again, broad concept. How are we going to bring that down? How are we going to... Because we cannot, especially with the times right now, honestly, it's going to be so hard to decide that we are going to make a habit right now and stick to it for the next 365 days. That's a lot to ask, especially when the state of the world has so many question marks around it. Alyssa Scolari [10:07]: So, what can we do instead? Well, what would be one act of self-love? Perhaps it is creating some type of like gratitude journal. That might be it. That might be it for you. Now, are we going to start off by saying, I need to write in this journal every single night before bed or every single morning when I wake up? I mean, no. I wouldn't recommend that because again, that's going to be very overwhelming and you are now adding another task to your life, to your already busy life. Alyssa Scolari [10:45]: So, how about this? How about I am going to aim once a week. Let's get even more specific. On Saturday mornings because I'm not rushing to get to work. I'm off. I have some time. I am going to aim to write a gratitude journal on Saturday mornings. Now we've cut our amount of journaling from 365 days of the year to 52, but that seems so much more manageable and honestly, if you have made a gratitude list for 52 days of the year, that's amazing. Absolutely amazing. So try to come up with goals that are more tangible. Alyssa Scolari [11:34]: For me personally, I actually, one of the things that I've really been wanting to do this year is try to work on the way that I speak to myself in my head, because I tend to give so much more love and kindness to other people, but I have zero love and kindness when it comes to myself, sadly. So what I want to do is I want to start writing all of the kind things that happen to me. Alyssa Scolari [12:03]: When I get really overwhelmed or when I get depressed, I can only see the bad. That's it. I've got to filter on, where only the bad things are coming in and I would like to have a tangible item where I can go to and reflect back on some of my darker days, and remind myself of how loved I am. Because like I said, when I'm depressed, it gets really, really hard for me to go back into my memory and be like, oh, remember, on this day, when this person said this really great thing about you. Alyssa Scolari [12:34]: So something I would like to do moving forward would be, like I said, to start writing things down when they happen to me, when really good things happen. I had somebody reach out to me maybe a week ago at this point, and tell me what an impact I have on their lives and their text message was absolutely beautiful. And it brought me to tears. It's those moments that I really want to hold onto because those moments are the moments that will help get me through the darker times. And if I have them in front of me and can access those memories or those reminders anytime, I'm hoping that I will be less likely to be constantly filling my head with negative self-talk. So there's an idea for you. If you are looking for ways to take better care of yourself or love yourself a little bit more as your New Year's resolution. Alyssa Scolari [13:36]: Now, the ma... I won't say the majority, but many, many, many people have a New Year's resolution of getting back in shape or eating healthier or losing weight, et cetera. And again, you all know, I am an intuitive eater and I practice intuitive eating with my clients and with myself through and through. That's what I talk about on this podcast. That's what I believe is the ultimate way to health and food freedom. But I also acknowledge that that's not where other people are and some people just want to lose weight and they want to get in shape and they want to change their bodies and manipulate the number on the scale. Alyssa Scolari [14:22]: If that's where you are at, okay, okay. But let me recommend this. So here's what we know. We know that 95% of diets fail. Yet, the diet industry is a 60 billion dollar, per year, industry. 60 billion dollars with a 95% failure rate. 60 billion dollars with a only a 5% success rate. I just want you to marinate on that, because that really blows my mind. Alyssa Scolari [15:15]: I'm not going to say don't diet. If that's what you feel called to do in this moment, you have to do what feels best for you. But what I will recommend is this. Before you decide to give the diet industry any more of your money, any more of your time, any more of your stress and any more of your health, knowing that there's a 95% chance this could fail, I want to encourage you to reevaluate your goals a little bit. And by that, I mean, I don't mean drop everything and just become an intuitive eater, because some people truly don't believe in that and that's okay. Alyssa Scolari [16:04]: But maybe instead of investing your money in the diet industry, maybe invest your money in a nutritionist, a holistic health nutritionist. I cannot say that word today. Maybe invest your money in somebody like that. Maybe find an intuitive eating person, a dietician, who can help you with one of your goals, or multiple of your goals, but maybe try to look for health outside of the diet industry, because you might have better success there in terms of becoming the person physically, mentally, and emotionally, that you would like to be. Just a thought. Alyssa Scolari [16:56]: And honestly, looking outside of the box in terms of like looking to different types of professionals to help me with food, with medical issues, with everything has been the most healing for me. So that's just something I'm recommending, if you know, one of your resolutions is diet health, weight loss, maybe try somebody who's not really fully affiliated with like the diet industry. Somebody who can work one-on-one with you, because at the end of the day, you're going to invest your money either way, but maybe invest your money in somebody who can help you achieve the goals that you want, but also might have a higher success rate than diet industry. Alyssa Scolari [17:42]: So there's my two cents. You can take that or leave it, but basically the concept applies with any kind of resolution. Start small, take it slow, and remind yourself to check in. Start small, give yourself compassion, keep loving yourself through it, and know that if you mess up or if you do not achieve all of your goals at the end of this year, you did nothing wrong. At the end of the day, if all you did was survive, especially with the state of the world right now, you have succeeded. Alyssa Scolari [18:21]: So Happy New Year, everybody. I hope that this is helpful. I am holding you in the light and I will see you all in 2022. Alyssa Scolari [18:30]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram we are at lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Alyssa Scolari [18:47]: Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again. That's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

Trauma severs the connection between our brains and our bodies, yet so much of Western culture encourages healing only from the chin up. On this week's episode, Kaity Rose Holsapple, a Somatic Yoga Therapist, explains the many reasons why we cannot fully heal from trauma without addressing the healing within our bodies.   Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Support the Podcast Kaity's Website:  https://www.hertemplehealing.com/  Transcript Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and we've got another awesome guest episode today which I'm so excited for. We have with us Kaitlyn Rose-Holsapple. Now through the journey of healing and Kaity's own PTSD, she channeled and created what's called somatic yoga therapy, which I can't wait to learn all about today, and somatic yoga therapy is an integrative healing art form that gently and effectively alchemizes trauma into soul power. She has walked countless individuals through their journeys of healing, trauma, anxiety and depression from within. Kaity supports her clients and students to connect with the innate wisdom and intuition of their bodies. This wisdom is present in every body and helps you to organically heal and live in integrity with your soul. Kaity firmly believes that you are your own healer. The somatic yoga therapy process offers you tools, support, guidance, and space for alchemizing blockages and trauma into your greatest gifts and superpowers, but at the end of the day, only you hold the magic of your own healing potential, and this magical healing force lives inside your body awaiting reclamation. Alyssa Scolari [01:46]: So I am really looking forward to this conversation and again, I'm just going to thank Kaity for her grace in rescheduling multiple times, so hi Kaity. Thank you for being here and thank you for your patience with me. Kaity Rose Holsapple [01:59]: Absolutely. I am so excited that we are able to connect here and now. Alyssa Scolari [02:05]: Me too, and I was doing a lot of reading on your website and just reading your bio, there's so many of these phrases that pop out to me. So of course the first question that I want to ask you is can you give us a little bit of backstory? What exactly led you to the place that you are now? I know you mentioned in your bio that you have PTSD, so if you wouldn't mind like elaborating a little bit, only what you're comfortable with of course. Kaity Rose Holsapple [02:36]: Totally. So really what brought me ... It was kind of like first being brought into the world of spirituality and yoga and then diving more deeply into psychology and trauma healing from there and what really drew me into especially yoga practices was just how disconnected I was from my body and I went through probably most of my life since a pretty early childhood event that I only just started to remember really recently only have these memories come back in the past couple of months. I realized I just have been dissociated and really out of body for so long in my life and yoga is a practice that really started to bring me back home to being more comfortable in my own skin and feeling actually like one of my first in my body moments that I remember was in a restorative yoga class and it was me just accessing my parasympathetic nervous system state but it was the first time I had done that in probably 14 years and I was in awe and shocked and didn't have really the words or language for it at the time but I was like, "Whoa. Something's really powerful here for me to continue to explore." Kaity Rose Holsapple [03:57]: And so that's really what brought me in and then starting to look deeper and connect more deeply with my body is also what started to really help me unravel some of the early childhood trauma and then trauma from later on in life as well and it's been quite a powerful journey. Alyssa Scolari [04:19]: Yeah. You touched on so many things there, but I'm going to jump right to can you actually give the listeners a little idea on what restorative yoga is because friends, if you have not done restorative yoga, I'm going to need you to drop everything and find a class. Because it is surely the best thing ever. So can you please tell us what that is? Kaity Rose Holsapple [04:50]: Yeah. So usually when we think about yoga, we think of a Vinyasa flow class or core power, very heated, fast, lots of breath work and movements and restorative yoga is really quite the opposite of that. A lot of uses of blankets and pillows and props and putting yourself into these really comfortable positions and shapes where you feel super supported and hopefully are able to drop into again that parasympathetic nervous system state, rest and digest and really a big intention of it is to create almost like a floating feeling in the body, just being really held and relaxed and for certain bodies, it's like, "Yes. So, so, so powerful," and you also now that for especially those of us survivors who have more of the hyper vigilant lean, it can be actually more challenging than going to a Vinyasa yoga class because it's so hard for many people to learn how to really slow down and drop in and let themselves be held. It's like one of the hardest things for our nervous systems to do sometimes and so medicinal, so powerful. Alyssa Scolari [06:06]: Yes, and you make an absolute excellent point, which is restorative yoga requires a lot more stillness and that can be as we know very, very difficult for lots of trauma survivors. So while yes, absolutely, I highly recommend restorative yoga, but take that with a grain of salt because you want to be careful to not overwhelm yourself. Sometimes when we are still, it's hard enough to be still but then sometimes when we are still, things come up and we can be flooded with flashbacks or body memories or what have you. So it's also like a really important point and then ... Alyssa Scolari [06:48]: So the other thing that you had said is that you had felt so disconnected from your body and that is really important because that is what trauma causes us to do. Trauma causes us to disconnect and we are essentially walking around with our heads detached from our bodies and I was listening to a podcast interview that was done with Bessel van der Kolk who is the author of The Body Keeps the Score and one of the leading experts in trauma and he said, which really struck a chord with me, that Western culture is so disembodied, and I felt like that it really struck a chord because I'm like, "Yeah. So much about it is like he said from the chin up. It's talk therapy, it's taking medications, and that's it." But we tend to neglect the somatic experiences that are happening in our body which I think are vital for healing. What are some of your thoughts on that? Kaity Rose Holsapple [08:03]: Yeah. I love that you brought in that piece around culture because that feels ... It's so true, it's in the air that we breathe, it's in the food that we eat. In the most part if you're a Westerner listening to this which I would guess a lot of the audience listening to this is from maybe the United States or more similar cultures to the United States, it's like ... That's just the norm for so many of us and [inaudible 00:08:28] is to actually disassociate and to live more in the realm of kind of the thinking mind rather than the feeling and the being midst and so that's part of why yoga has been so healing and is so healing for so many people because it's the opposite of that, and also all these somatic therapies that we see emerging and having so much power nowadays are helping our Western bodies really, really learn how to access the state of healing. Kaity Rose Holsapple [09:04]: Because healing isn't able to happen on that thinking level of consciousness. It's incompatible with the healing state when we're in our thinking mind. It's just not really ... There's not compatibility there, because healing has to happen in the present moment and thinking automatically is taking you out of the present moment. So dropping into the somatic state is actually dropping into a presence practice that helps you be with what's here and now, and that's the only time healing can happen is in the here and in the now. Alyssa Scolari [09:39]: I love that. It's so important. Kaity Rose Holsapple [09:41]: Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [09:42]: So important. So now how is ... Because you created somatic yoga therapy. Can you describe what exactly is that? How is that different from standard therapy? Or standard yoga I should say? Kaity Rose Holsapple [09:59]: Absolutely. Yeah, so yoga therapy in itself is kind of this emerging field. Not a lot of people have heard of it generally, right? And it's this practice of really modifying different aspects of the yoga tradition, including the asana which is what a lot of us think of when we think about yoga, the different postures and shapes we put our bodies in but there's also like a whole world of other depth there as well. We do pranayama breath work practices, energy practices. There's a whole lot there and it's about really customizing those practices for the individual at hand. So rather than you going to a yoga class where the whole group is taught the same sequence, this is like what's really happening, Alyssa, for you and your body today, and creating a specified practice, yoga, meditation, pranayama, asana, et cetera, that's just 100% completely to support you in regaining balance, and it's really, really beautiful, really, really powerful, can sometimes feel a little bit allopathic from my perspective, a little bit like Westernized in some ways and really a huge effort of bringing this into the hospitals and the medical system. Kaity Rose Holsapple [11:21]: Really beautiful, really powerful, and so with somatic yoga therapy, it includes that aspect of yoga therapy but it's dropping a little bit of the ways that we can sometimes label this is the yoga practice for anxiety or this is what you do for high blood pressure and really tuning into actually what each individual body is guiding and needing which actually can look very, very different, even inside those diagnoses of like ... You might have anxiety, I might have anxiety, but actually what we really need might be completely different on more of those subtle levels. So yeah, it's really accessing the felt sense space, that present moment space of connecting with sensations in the body and then supporting the release of blocked energy so that you can regain balance and heal from within, inside out. Rather than again, what our culture can be so addicted to is I feel like crap or shit, sorry if your podcast doesn't like swears. Alyssa Scolari [12:23]: Oh no, be careful on this podcast. It's fine. Kaity Rose Holsapple [12:25]: Okay, great. I feel like shit. Tell me what to do to make it better. Right? Just I need someone to tell me what I need to do. It's dropping that need for outer authority and really learning how to access your own inner guide, your own inner intuition, and the ability that we all have, which is to know what you need. To know what you need in order to heal. Alyssa Scolari [12:51]: I love that so much. It's important because everybody's healing is so individualized. Like you said, we both might have anxiety but what we might need to heal may be completely different. But I also love that because it's very empowering, and trauma often leaves us feeling disempowered. So it's truly taking your healing into your own hands, and knowing that you already have the answers to the questions that you have and the support that you seek is all within you. Kaity Rose Holsapple [13:27]: Yeah. And this is really hard for someone who's survived trauma, right? Because you ask someone who's been through a traumatic experience even the question of what do you want to do today or what do you like, and sometimes it's so hard to answer those simple questions of making those choices of what do I like, what do I want to do, because we can be really fragmented from that wisdom. Again, that comes back to that sense of being more in our mental body rather than in our physical body which is the realm that can actually tell us what we want, what we like, what feels good, what needs to happen. You can't do that from the mental space. It just can't happen from that brain space. Alyssa Scolari [14:07]: Right, we need to be mind-body connected. We need to be absolutely grounded in our bodies in order to be able to figure that out and answer so many of those questions that ... And those questions are important when it comes to friendships, relationships, just social interactions in general, but even other things like job interviews. One of the first questions that we ask people when we are interviewing them for a position is, "Tell me about yourself." But when you have a traumatized individual who has been walking around just in the mental space and has really done no work somatically or in their bodies and is disconnected, how can we expect them to answer that question well? So this is so important for all facets of functioning I think. Kaity Rose Holsapple [14:55]: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah, well that really points to just how connected every single area of our life is. We cannot compartmentalize things in the way again that our culture has really trained us to do for so long. It's like, "I'm going to have my work life here and then my romantic life and then here's my friend life," and really it's just like how you show up in these different areas, it's all so, so connected with your wiring, with your nervous system and it's really powerful to start really looking and doing the work around and in these different realms. Alyssa Scolari [15:34]: Yes. It's incredible. It's so powerful. Now you mentioned ... I cannot remember if this was the exact phrase that you used, but something ... You said something like ... Was it blocked energies? Kaity Rose Holsapple [15:48]: Yep. Alyssa Scolari [15:50]: Can you explain, can you elaborate on what that is? Kaity Rose Holsapple [15:55]: Yes. Alyssa Scolari [15:56]: Because I feel like that's very important. Kaity Rose Holsapple [15:58]: So let's talk about this because it is really important. This is like totally how I see things now, it's like ... Blocked energies, you can think of trauma as like this spectrum with most severe being like actual diagnosis, like PTSD, CPTSD and just like the very intense symptoms that you think of with trauma, like flashbacks and very, very obvious forms of dissociation, depersonalization, those sort of aspects, right? And then we have all of these other different forms of trauma that show up in really, really subtle and sometimes a little insidious forms and I would say the spectrum is the spectrum of blocked energy. Where trauma and blocked energy can really be synonymously used because what is happening when there's a trauma in the system, in your energy body, there becomes kind of a knot that happens where the energy ties itself up and is no longer flowing, so there is stagnation that happens, and when that happens, of course you're cut off from your own energy flow, so there's not as much feeling of aliveness, sensation even. This can create numbness, a cutting off from different areas of the body. Kaity Rose Holsapple [17:19]: Also just feeling like really lethargic, really tired, and so looking at and thinking of trauma as not just something that happens in the physical body but actually something that's really affecting the energetics, and a great way of looking at this is also ... If we come back to what happens in the breath when there's then trauma and how our breath physiologically starts to change because the breath is kind of the gateway between the physical and the energetic body because there's a connection here between we can have conscious control of our breath if we just all take a deep breath right here and now, you can choose to consciously do that, and you know that you're always going to be breathing. Even if you're not telling yourself to, right? So there's this really deep connection between the breath, which in yoga is really deeply connected with the energy body, with their prana, life force, and the subconscious mind which is the realm that stores traumas and so we just think about in a traumatic experience, for example something shocking happens and you gasp and your breath is kind of stuck up here and then that's kind of how the energy can start to get stuck and all of a sudden, or actually over quite a period of time, we develop patterns such as just chest breathing and no longer have access to a deep diaphragmatic breath anymore. Kaity Rose Holsapple [18:47]: And so that's kind of a more physiological way we can start to see the energy body being really affected is just by looking at changes that happen in breath and breathing, but also it's happening in this really subtle way that's not perceptible really to the human eye but is really connected with felt sense, sensations, and what you notice as sensation in your body. And so starting to work with somatics is also taking you deep into the realm of energetics and the energy body in a pretty powerful, really, really powerful way. Alyssa Scolari [19:21]: Yeah. Yeah, so this process basically goes hand and hand with energy work. Because I hear this phrase so often, right? Energy work, energy work, and I feel like it's now becoming more and more linked to trauma. It's all energy. Alyssa Scolari [19:37]: Now I want to take this one step further and ask you your thoughts on when we have chronic energy blocks, you named some of the ways in which that can show up, but ... And I feel like I already know the answer to this because you also ... I heard the podcast interview that you had done about the link between rosacea and trauma. So is it your opinion or your belief that when these energy blocks become chronic and constant, they can lead into more serious illnesses, autoimmune diseases, things like that? Kaity Rose Holsapple [20:21]: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yes. Yeah, so it's really fascinating to look at this. In yoga, we have something called the kosha model which is talking about the different bodies. Like we have our physical body, we have this physical body that is blood, muscle, bone, skin, and then there are other bodies as well, like one of which is the breath body which holds your prana, your energy, and then you also have your mind, the body of your mind which is composed of your thoughts and your emotions and you also have the body of your beliefs and your belief system which you may or may not know, those of you listening, like some of those are not always what we would consciously want and choose to believe. We have beliefs that are really, really rooted in our childhood, especially the first seven years of our lives and our culture and things that we might not actually really want to believe in the subconscious mind are beliefs stored up, right? And so all of these bodies are really always intermingling and influencing one another. Kaity Rose Holsapple [21:28]: So an example of this is I can have this belief, I might not even know I have it. I could have this belief let's say for example around what a body is supposed to look like, what a beautiful female body is supposed to look like. And it might not be consciously what I think beauty is, but I have this belief that I'm only beautiful if I am only 120 pounds. It's like something that doesn't even necessarily have to make a lot of cognitive sense, but we have these. So let's say - Alyssa Scolari [22:01]: Right, it's not something that has to be backed by science. It's just if that's your belief, it's your belief. Kaity Rose Holsapple [22:06]: Right yeah. And you might not even really know it's there, which I think is also something really, really interesting. Because these beliefs that we have really run our lives in unconscious ways until we start to really see them. That's one of the definitions of yoga is bringing the unconscious to your consciousness, and once things become conscious, that's healing in itself, right? Just being able to see that okay, this is here, and it's not exactly in line with what my soul really believes, but it's here. This is part of my conditioning, right? Kaity Rose Holsapple [22:39]: So we have this belief, let's use the one that I gave an example on, which is like I'm only beautiful if I am 120 pounds or something kind of specific and based around your body like that. And then connected with that belief, there's all of the thoughts and emotions that we have, which might be looking at yourself in the mirror and feeling shame. It might be those negative thoughts that cycle in your head, all the ways that you tell yourself you're not good enough, you're not beautiful enough. A lot of I feel more New Age spirituality works in this level of affirmation, where we just start to tell ourselves, "I am beautiful. I love myself." But again, it stays in that mental level, so it's never really becoming true and real in your body, in your bones. Alyssa Scolari [23:30]: Right, we're never really absorbing it. Kaity Rose Holsapple [23:34]: Yeah. Exactly, even though those affirmations can feel really helpful in the moment, it's not actually getting to the root of what's really there. Alyssa Scolari [23:42]: Thank you, [inaudible 00:23:43], I am a little bit ... I'm not anti-affirmations, like yes please hype yourself up, but I am just like, "It's not enough." And I like that you're saying that because when we sort of say things like, "Well you just need to do your affirmations," I think it takes away from it makes people feel like, "Oh, what's wrong with me? Like I'm doing my affirmations, I literally have you are beautiful on my mirror and I say it every time when I wake up," and it's like it's not enough because you're not fully integrating it. Like it's just in your brain and then it kind of leaves. So I love that you said that, but you go on. I didn't mean to totally interrupt. Kaity Rose Holsapple [24:24]: No, I love that too, and it's like also ... What about all of the parts inside of you that don't believe that and don't feel that way and now you're just kind of overriding those and not really attending to what's really there, like what's the trauma there that those parts are really holding? Because there's a ... Even though it feels shitty, there's a wisdom to those thoughts. Like there's something in there that's actually really important to extract and to move towards, I really believe that. So we have this level of belief, then we have this level of thought and emotion that can manifest from our beliefs, right? So the beliefs are very, very deep, very, very unconscious, and then they can start to manifest into thoughts and into emotion which directly affects the energetics of the body. Think of the last time you had a negative thought about yourself, like, "I look ugly," or whatever that thought is for you, it's going to change how you're breathing. It changes your breath patterns. Kaity Rose Holsapple [25:23]: So that's again a more obvious way that the energy starts to change. But it's also going to change the posture, like how you hold yourself, which again is going to affect the flow of chi, the flow of energy through the body. It's going to affect the felt sense, you might have this heavy, dropped feeling in your belly which again that's a way the energy body is communicating to you is through sensations. And then eventually years of me holding my body in this slumped position of this energy communicating in this way and me not actually being able to discharge it, being able to let it flow through me, being able to affirm and acknowledge it but in a way that allows it to fully, fully complete what it's trying to do rather than what we commonly do is, "I don't like this, eew, icky, I'm going to move away from it and try to shove it down." Right? Alyssa Scolari [26:20]: Exactly. I'm going to [inaudible 00:26:22]. Yeah. Kaity Rose Holsapple [26:23]: Yeah, yeah. It's what we are commonly doing. And again, this might not be conscious. You might know consciously that that's not super great for you and we still do it and it's just like a habit. So after long periods of time of these avoidance patterns, the energy gets stuck in these different regions and can manifest as skin issues, digestive issues, chronic pain. Pain is hugely connected with this. Anyone who has chronic low back pain, I've struggled a lot with jaw pain. Like this is just so rooted and connected here, and then of course other forms of disease and imbalance start to form as well. So that's kind of like the pathway of how this can happen is starting with for example a traumatic experience that imprints this really deep belief. That belief starts to change how we think and how we feel inside, which influences the sensations and the breath which influences our body. Alyssa Scolari [27:25]: Okay. Okay. That makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah, and I 100% believe that. I was just like ... I know at least for the work that I do, every single person who comes into my office, it's so ... I love the somatic work. Like it is so important because yeah, I do believe that so much pain, chronic pain, back pain. Like I had a lot of jaw pain too. I actually went to the dentist a few months back and the dentist was like, "Do you grind your teeth?" And I was like, "No." And I was so detached from my body, I was very stressed out, we had just moved, and I couldn't even feel. I was so out of touch with my body. In the six months between my dentist appointments, I had been grinding my teeth so much that I actually have permanent damage and I didn't even know but the second that he said something to me, I was sitting in his chair, had not even left the office yet, I felt all the pain and all the tension in my jaw. And I'm like, "Wow." Alyssa Scolari [28:41]: So I think that's just like a great example of how disembodied we can become without even truly knowing it, which is why this information and this practice I think has to be very, very intentional, all the time. Not just when you're feeling extra down that day. Would you agree with that? Kaity Rose Holsapple [29:02]: Yeah. Absolutely, and a huge part of the somatic yoga therapy practice is building relationship and awareness of your body. Even just ... If you're wanting to get started with more of this work, doing a daily body scan practice where you're just making contact with all of the different areas of the body, that's really, really helpful for this part of the nervous system that ... Like your story, not even realizing how much tension you hold in your jaw, it's like ... There's a reason the nervous system doesn't want to go there and it's because maybe there's something there that feels a little bit like scary or too much or it's holding onto something, right? And so there are reasons that we check out from these different areas of the body, even ones that are causing us pain and oftentimes that quality of dissociating from different body regions is really connected with the pain receptors and they get louder and louder so that we start to listen and hear what they're really trying to say. So if someone who has chronic pain comes to me, I know that there's often also been chronic numbness before that pain even started. Alyssa Scolari [30:14]: Yes. Yes. You put that so beautifully. Now you also mentioned this concept, soul power. What does that mean? Like can you explain that? I love it, like soul power, yes, but what exactly does that mean? Kaity Rose Holsapple [30:34]: Yeah. That is you living in alignment with the strength and the truth and the energy that only comes from the space of your soul. So this is beyond any trauma that you have experienced, this is your essence that is untouchable, can't get sick, can't die, lives on forever. This is the part of you that is always 100% pure, sparkly, bright. Like it's your youness, everybody's soul is completely like a unique expression. I like to think of people's different souls as really connected with different plants or different spaces in nature that have ... There's different qualities to them, right? Like someone might have a very waterfall, sweet, nourishing, grounded soul. Someone might have more of a fiery quality in them, and so it's unique, it's connected with your personality, but it's beyond that and trauma severs your connection with that. Severs your ability for your soul, the energy gets blocked, and then that can no longer flow in your body and so what often happens for traumatized individuals, it's not that your soul ever goes anywhere. It's not that you lose it, though that's something that we feel right? If you've ever had that sense of soul searching or really deep longing to feel like yourself again, like that's what you are longing for. Kaity Rose Holsapple [32:03]: What happens with trauma is that the soul can become displaced from the body and it kind of starts to just hover outside of the body or outside of the energy field because trauma is so connected with death experiences or feeling like, "Oh my god, I am going to die. I think I'm going to die here." It doesn't matter what type of trauma it was, there's some sort of fear for your life that happens and just like in death, the soul leaves the body. So you might not actually have died, you might not have actually died, but some processes and parts of you think that maybe you had or you're about to or it's going to happen and in order to protect this space inside of you that is the most powerful, beautiful and whole aspect of yourself, it's an act of protection that gets kind of pushed away. There's a lot of different reasons for that. Kaity Rose Holsapple [32:56]: It might feel like it's really scary to be my full soulful self. It might feel like too intense in some ways and so the soul becomes kind of disconnected or dissociated. We build up walls and then forget that it's even actually really there but a huge part of the somatic yoga therapy process is detangling these energetic blocks so that the energy can start to move more freely in the body, discharging energy that's just not yours. Like it's not really in alignment with you and who you are, it's heavy, it's stagnant, it's like ... Maybe it belongs to past versions of yourself, but it's not your present moment's energy, and then when there's more of that space and flow inside of you, the soul gets to come back home, and all of a sudden, you feel like, "Wow. I'm having these moments where I really feel like me. I really feel alive, I really feel like myself." Kaity Rose Holsapple [33:51]: And that is the process of alchemizing trauma into soul power and bringing your soul back [inaudible 00:33:59] in an embodied way where you don't have to meditate, which meditation can actually be kind of a way of dissociating a lot of the time. When we meditate, we meditate to access that soul space. In order to access that sense of feeling one with the universe, whatever language you use, but through this process, that becomes just how you live your life. You feel connected with that space and you don't have to go anywhere in order to do that. It just becomes woven into your embodied experience. Alyssa Scolari [34:31]: Yeah. This is incredible. I'm learning so much, so I have to ask, so the somatic yoga therapy. Is that specifically a different type of training or is it that you became certified in yoga or yoga or yoga therapy and then sort of developed your somatic yoga therapy? How did that work? Kaity Rose Holsapple [34:57]: Yes, yeah. Yeah, so I did undergo my yoga therapy training, and during that process, had this pretty ... Actually probably at the end of this process, had a really intense traumatic experience, a sexual trauma with a former colleague, a former friend of mine and it wasn't like the first time I had been sexually violated by any means, but it was the first conscious time that I had where I was really, really conscious and aware of what was happening and so that really launched me into this journey of healing PTSD which all of that experience very much triggered my early childhood stuff that I had not really ... Kaity Rose Holsapple [35:37]: I hadn't had the resources or tools to look at up until that point, and so that experience really launched me, even though I was already working with trauma, from this more allopathic or yoga therapy lens, I've been working in that way, this launched me deeper into the world and realm of somatics because that was what was working for me and that was what was healing me. So somatic yoga therapy really came from that process of me doing my own healing journey and there are different forms of somatic yoga therapies that I have had experience with from somatic experiencing to sensory motor to Hakomi and I think they're all so beautiful and so powerful, and for me, bringing the yoga therapy piece in was like the missing link there and it's just what my body was naturally doing because I am such a spiritually inclined person and I really believe that that ... Like your soul is your greatest resource for healing. That's the one in you who can digest fricking anything that's happened. No matter how heavy it is, that's the part of you that can handle it. No other parts are able to be with the traumas in that same way and so yeah. Kaity Rose Holsapple [36:57]: That's really where this work was born from is just my own body started to create it and I was already working with clients and so I just started naturally bringing in what was arising and unfolding for me and it was having such great results that I just continued and now I'm training others in this process of somatic yoga therapy. I have a whole yearlong training that I do for people to connect with this work more deeply and learn how to weave into their healing modalities, whatever it is that they're doing. Whether that's yoga therapy, yoga teaching, psychotherapy, massage therapy, it really is so complementary to so many different healing modalities and that's what I'm doing now is training others to help get this work out there. Alyssa Scolari [37:45]: That is amazing. So that's ... I mean one, thank you very much for sharing and for being so vulnerable because it's like that is ultimately, and while we never wish trauma of any nature on anyone, it's like that catapulted you into now being this driving force for helping, now you're training people who can then go on to help other people and that is so empowering. So empowering. So you are ... You're training other people and are you also working with people one-on-one, hosting retreats? What else is there to that? Kaity Rose Holsapple [38:29]: Yeah, so I do work with people one-on-one and do somatic yoga therapy work for helping my clients digest trauma into more soul power and also access deeper states of pleasure and purpose and meaning in their lives after a traumatic experience because that can feel so severed. Definitely have a draw and attract a lot of women who have survived sexual traumas and want to start really metabolizing those so that they can feel more empowered in their sexuality again, more connected with their sexuality and with their essential self because that is so important for so many women and so disconnected, just like we talked about you with the jaws, like we can think of the same area sexually and there's a lot of numbness, there's a lot of pain, there's a lot of shutdown. So I do work one-on-one with people in that region, in that area, and then yeah, I run retreats and workshops and have a lot of different free resources too on my website that I would invite any listeners who kind of feels connected with this work to check that out. There is a free inner sanctuary practice which is a whole I think 45 minute practice where I guide you through some of the foundations of what we're doing in somatic yoga therapy and more of just like you get to experience it within, inside your own self, so that's on my website. Alyssa Scolari [40:03]: And your website is hertemplehealing.com, right? Kaity Rose Holsapple [40:08]: Yes. Yep. You got it. Alyssa Scolari [40:10]: Okay. I got it. Fantastic. So for the listeners out there, you can just go ahead and you know what to do. Go right to the show notes and you will find the link there. Strongly encourage you to check that out. I will definitely be utilizing all of the resources on there because I love this topic and I love this stuff and I am very passionate about it. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise. It is crucial for trauma survivors. It's so crucial, so thank you, thank you, thank you for your time today. Kaity Rose Holsapple [40:45]: Thank you for having me on, Alyssa. I'm just delighted to have talked with you. Alyssa Scolari [40:50]: Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [40:52]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media, on Instagram. We are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for five dollars a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

Endometriosis is an excruciatingly painful disease that is common among those with female reproductive organs, yet, there is little awareness on the subject. If you've ever had extremely painful periods but have been told to just take birth control, then this week's episode is for you! Alyssa breaks down what endometriosis is and shares her own personal battle with this disease. Support the Podcast

In this old episode, Alyssa brings her husband, David, on the show to discuss the challenges that can come with supporting a loved one with PTSD. David offers advice for supporters on how they can aid their loved ones on their path to recovery while also taking time to care for themselves. Due to some health issues this week, we are doing a repeat of Episode 26. We'll be back next week with the new regular content you enjoy! Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Support the Podcast   Transcript: Alyssa Scolari: Hi friends, hope everybody's off to a wonderful week. I am just popping on for a few minutes today to let you know that there will be no official new episode this week. This is the first time that we are pulling a repeat episode, so we are going to be sharing the episode that I did with my husband, David, on loving somebody with PTSD or more specifically complex PTSD. This is a really good episode. It's one that David and I did together, and I hope that you all enjoy it. Alyssa Scolari: The reason that there is no podcast episode this week is because quite frankly, it has been a pretty horrible week. I had planned to share with you all a little bit about what has been going on, and I have been, I know I've been touching on the fact that I've had some health issues lately in my previous episodes, and I was really hoping to be able to record a solo episode so that I could share what I'm going through with you all, especially off the heels of having my doctor's appointment. Alyssa Scolari: We had a doctor's appointment and we got some kind of just bad news and it's nothing life threatening, of course, so I'm not dying or anything like that, but all in all, it's just very upsetting news. It's news that we were kind of anticipating, but upon hearing it, it definitely didn't help, and I think the weight of everything really set in for both my husband, David and myself. David and I are the ones that run the podcast and David does all the editing, and I think that he's kind of having a rough time as well. Yeah, it's just been a really difficult week. Alyssa Scolari: I will be back next week and hopefully I will have had time to process everything and then I will update you all on what's going on, but right now I'm just not feeling the best. Again, while I was hoping to be able to chat with you all about what's been happening, this weekend definitely looked a lot more like me hanging out in my PJs with my dogs, just being in the grief of all of it. I love you all. I am holding you all in the light and I ask that you all hold me in the light as well right now because things are pretty tough, but I will be back now next week, and I appreciate your patience and I hope that you enjoy this episode. [singing] Alyssa Scolari: Hey everybody, I feel like I need a new introduction. Because for every episode I'm like, "Hey everybody." And I sound so cheesy. David Scolari: No, we got to stay on brand. That is part of the brand and we're going with it, baby. Alyssa Scolari: No, it's too cheesy. Welcome everybody. No, that's really, that's terrible too. Anyway guys, hello guys, girls, they, them, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast, I'm your host Alyssa Scolari, and as you may or may not already be able to tell, we are doing an episode with the man behind the scenes today, my husband David. He is the editor of the podcast and the technology guru. Most importantly, I'm married to him. Hi Dave. David Scolari: Hello. Alyssa Scolari: The reason behind this is because as much as I think it's very important to give a voice to trauma survivors, I think it's also equally important to give a voice to the ones who are on the sidelines supporting us and loving us through our PTSD recovery journey. I thought that it might be helpful for folks if David came on the podcast today to share a little bit about what it's like to love somebody through PTSD. Yeah, here's Dave. David Scolari: Hey everybody. How are we all doing today? Alyssa Scolari: I can't, I'm going to have to edit that part out. David Scolari: Dave, edit that part out. You watch that rat bastard. He'll leave that right in there. Alyssa Scolari: I guess I'll just start firing questions at you. David Scolari: Go right ahead. Alyssa Scolari: It's so weird because I've actually never done a podcast that somebody sitting in the same room as me. March 23rd will be three years that we've been married. David Scolari: Yes ma'am. Alyssa Scolari: When I first met you, we met in 2016. David Scolari: Indeed. Alyssa Scolari: Did you have any idea that I had a history of trauma? David Scolari: Not a fricking clue. Alyssa Scolari: When did you find out? Do you want to talk about from your perspective how it all went down? David Scolari: Yeah. I guess probably the first time I knew that you had been through something was I think were driving to my aunt and uncle's down in Long Beach Island. On the drive there, you nervously told me that you were seeing a therapist for some things, and I'm sure you were like, oh my gosh, I'm going to tell this guy and he's going to be like, "Get out." In the middle of the Pine Barrens and drive away never to be seen again. Alyssa Scolari: I did. It was so funny. I dropped that on you like, to the listeners out there, when we were dating, I at first didn't tell him I was in therapy because at the time I guess I embraced the shame and stigma around being in therapy, which I no longer do. I now have no problem and will tell the whole world, obviously, that I'm in therapy, but I was a different person back then. What I did was I waited until we were in the car, so you couldn't abandon me. We were on a barren road where there was no cellphone service. I don't think consciously I was doing that on purpose, but I think subconsciously I was definitely like, "All right, I'm going to trap him, tell him I'm in therapy and there's nowhere for him to run." David Scolari: For folks who aren't familiar, in South Jersey, there are what we call the Pine Barren forests, and when you're driving through A, yes, there is no cell phone reception, B, there's like nobody out there, no houses, no towns, no convenience stores for long stretches of the road. So yeah, you're not turning around, you're not going anywhere, you can't just drop somebody off there. I mean, unless, I don't know, you were the mafia and you were doing something down there, but anyways, so yeah. Alyssa Scolari: Yeah. I made it so that you couldn't leave me, but even then I didn't tell you that I had a history of trauma because I didn't know. David Scolari: Right. Yeah. I mean, that's the first time I knew you had some things you were going through or working through- Alyssa Scolari: Eating disorder wise. David Scolari: Right. Alyssa Scolari: But when in your recollection were we talking about the fact that I then had PTSD? I don't think it wasn't until after we were married. David Scolari: Yeah. Because I don't think you really uncovered your trauma and kind of started to come to terms with some of it until after we were married. Alyssa Scolari: Conveniently. David Scolari: Which, by then, we were locked in baby and I wasn't going anywhere. Alyssa Scolari: Which obviously we kid. Part of the reason why I really thought, again, that it would be helpful to have David on here is because he sort of has been through this process with me and he can look at it from a different lens. He didn't know what he was walking into. Obviously, we got married and then it wasn't until shortly after we got married that I started to have all of these memories come to the surface. Can you tell me what that was like for you? Because there's so much I truthfully don't remember because I was in such a bad place. David Scolari: Yeah. I mean, obviously you were, it's tough, right? Because you have your good days and your bad days and some days we were just in the middle of doing something random, watching TV, going out somewhere, talking to somebody, hanging out, and you can start having those memories flood back into your consciousness there. I'll be very honest, I would say probably the word to use would just be unexpected, because with the recovery process and remembering things, you don't, there would just be days again where it, just out of the blue you would be angry, you would be sad, you would be enraged, you would be all sorts of emotions and I would kind of just be blindsided by it. Yeah, it was never consistent in terms of when you would uncover stuff and remember things and then have all those emotions associated with that. Sometimes, you wouldn't even know why you're crying or being mad or angry just because you were dissociating or other things. It would just come out of the blue. Alyssa Scolari: What was that like for you being on that kind of roller coaster? David Scolari: I mean, I think the word roller coaster is an apt kind of way to describe it. It can be challenging sometimes, because it can just come out of the blue and sometimes no matter the words that I say or the actions that I take, it's just sometimes a process where we got to cry it out. We got to yell it out, scream it out, and let your body kind of just process in the moment what you were remembering or going through or the things you were feeling. Alyssa Scolari: I'm sure that for those of you listening, if you have loved ones who have PTSD or complex PTSD and are going through this journey or did at one point, this is probably all sounding very familiar to you where it's like, especially if you're married to that person or that person is your romantic partner, it's sort of like one minute we're talking about something that's seemingly not emotional, he's asking me what I want for dinner and I'm curled up in a ball and the couch sobbing because I can't make up my mind. I'm frustrated because now I'm having flashbacks of other times when I couldn't make up my mind in the middle of a trauma. He's like, "What? I just asked you if you wanted pizza or spaghetti." And I'm balling and it's comical in retrospect. Right? I mean, wouldn't you say like it's funny in retrospect? But, let me tell you something. When somebody asks you if you want, or if you're that person that's like, "Hey babe, do you want pizza for dinner or would you like chicken?" And that person just curls up into a ball and sobs, it's, I think, extremely stressful and extremely taxing. Right? Then, on top of it, we had the pandemic. We've been stuck. Not stuck, because I like you. I mean I love you. I'm such a jerk. We've been in this house for, which our house is not big. It's very small, very close corners, close corners, or close quarters? David Scolari: Quarters. Alyssa Scolari: Oh, okay. Well, there we go. David Scolari: Dave, edit that out. Alyssa Scolari: Yep. Edit that out, Dave. We've really not had any time apart, and I've still been going through quite a bit. Does that, like are there times where you're just at your wit's end? David Scolari: Oh, yeah. I mean, sure. Sometimes, again, just because what you're remembering, what you're feeling, or what happened that has brought forth, whether it's at your job or whatever, has kind of brought forth memories. Sometimes, I'm trying to calm you down, I'm trying to get you grounded again. Sometimes I can say things and it helps ground you. Sometimes what I say doesn't help ground yet. Alyssa Scolari: Sometimes it makes it worse. David Scolari: Sometimes the dogs do a much better job of grounding you than I do. In fact, they probably way, way better. Alyssa Scolari: I like my pets. David Scolari: Indeed. Alyssa Scolari: What are some things that you think people can do when they see their loved ones struggling when they see their loved ones dissociating, because this has been a learning process for you as well. This isn't something that I've been going through by myself. I've been going through it with you. Although, at times it feels like I'm by myself. What are some things that you have learned along the way that could help? David Scolari: Probably, one, patience. I think even in when I go, "Do you want Wendy's or McDonald's?" And you then start bawling out on the couch. I'm like, "Oh, this this ... Oh, okay. We can go someplace else." But no, when that happens, I think the first thing that even sometimes when I'm like, "Ooh, this is like the third time today where we're having a meltdown." There's part of me, that's like, "Ooh, not again, here we go." Part of what helps get me through it is to realize that it's not you. It's the people or events that have caused the trauma that is now welling up inside of you. To recognize that it's not you being a bad person or anything like that, but it's those events and those people. It really helps put it into context and allows me to go, "Okay, hey, maybe this is the third time we're bawling our eyes out on the couch today, but that's okay. We have a rollercoaster ride ahead of us and we'll be there and get through the ups and the downs." I think that's one, just kind of having that context. Alyssa Scolari: Just reminding yourself and reframing like, "This is not that person. This is that person's trauma. That person is not fully present right now." David Scolari: Yep. Not letting the trauma define the person, you in this particular case. I think that's hugely important for anybody, that reframing that, putting it into context really allows you to see the person that you've fallen in love with. Alyssa Scolari: Well, how is it that you know and are able to tell when I'm dissociated, or when I'm not present? And how are you able to tell it's the trauma? Because I think some people out there, and I think, you don't have a background in trauma, right? You have no degree in trauma. This has been such a learning experience. I think that there are a lot of people out there that have zero experience with trauma, have a loved one who's been through trauma and like, how are they supposed to tell if it's dissociation and how are they supposed to calm their own defenses? How can they educate themselves? How can they calm their own defenses? Because I'm sure there are times when I am dissociated and there have been times where we have fought and you have lost your patience. What would you recommend for somebody who just has no understanding of even what dissociation is? David Scolari: Yeah. I think it's really having a conversation with the person who is going through that trauma, whether it's a friend or spouse or whatever. I think for you and me in particular, having conversations either outside of your episodes of crying or anger or whatever. Alyssa Scolari: After I've calmed down and grounded myself a little bit. David Scolari: Yeah. I mean, honestly I think it's ... I think I've learned the most, and again, maybe this isn't for everybody, but I've always learned the most about what you've been through and what you're thinking, or have felt at the time like right after we've kind of grounded you a bit and gotten you to a point where you've calmed down a bit, then we're able to like, we have some really good conversations that can go from anywhere from five minutes to maybe an hour or more. We kind of just break down like what you were feeling, what memories came back, and that has really helped me put things into context in terms of, "Oh, okay, this is what triggered this thought.' Or, "This is what welled up inside of you." That's really just added more and more context over the years that I've known you and we've been going through this process and yeah, just really helps put it all into context. Alyssa Scolari: I think one of the biggest takeaways from that is this, the concept that it's not going to be helpful to talk it out in the moment always. It's really important to try to help that person when they're really triggered or really dissociated to get to a state of calm first, because when I'm dissociated, there's really no talking it out with me because you won't win. Whatever you say, I hate it. In that moment you're not David, right, in my eyes. You're one of my abusers. In that moment, I can't stand you. Whatever you say is going to be wrong. It's going to make me worse. I'm not going to like it. I'm going to say something that's going to trigger you. Then, that's how blow ups happen. One of the things that you've really learned, which I think is going to be helpful for people to hear, is that it's not really about talking it out in the moment. It's about what can we do to ... How can I help this person to ground themselves and calm down, and then we will revisit this later. David Scolari: Absolutely. What, and I think you you've said this often, especially sometimes in the moment. Me, I'm a very logical sort of person. Alyssa Scolari: Ugh, are you ever. David Scolari: I always try and talk things out and you're like, "Listen, I totally, logically, get what you're saying. I hear you David, but I don't, like I can't feel that." With the disassociation, you may hear the words, you may agree with the words in some part of your brain, but another part of your brain is just blowing up and being like, "I don't care what you're saying. I'm just in this space right now where I'm hearing it, but I'm not processing it." Alyssa Scolari: Yeah. I think that's exactly it. Going back to even something that might not seem trauma related, like when we first got married and we, as David said, he is all about logic and I am all about like flying by the seam of your pants. Like, okay, let's not look at our bank account. Let's just get on a plane and go on vacation. David's like, "Okay, but the budget." Right? Speaking of budgets, when we first got married, he was like, "Okay, well let's create a budget." Because we really did not have, I mean, we were very poor when we, I think it's fair to say. David Scolari: Oh yeah. Alyssa Scolari: Yeah, we were extremely, extremely poor when we first started out. David Scolari: Nonprofits, surprisingly, don't pay a lot of money. Alyssa Scolari: Who would've thought? We both met working in a nonprofit and in that nonprofit I was an employee and David was a volunteer. We really were making like the salary of one person working at a nonprofit. David Scolari: Right. Probably more like a salary of somebody working at McDonald's or Wal-Mart. Alyssa Scolari: Yes, we were essentially making minimum wage. David was like, "Budget. We got to look at a budget." I, for, and now I kind of understand, I understand a lot more why now, but this is like three years removed. Back then, when we talked about a budget, I lost my ever loving shit. I mean, like shut down, cried hysterically, or got mad at him because he wanted to do a budget and I would refuse. That was a point of contention, like one of the biggest points of contention in our marriage, I think, when we first started out. It was a huge trigger for me. Now I understand why, but back then I had no idea. Again, it's not always helpful to try to figure it out in the moment, because logically I knew we had no money. I knew we had a ton of debt. And I knew that budgeting was the only way that we were going to be able to sustain ourselves. Emotionally, I mean, my emotions took over and I was incoragable. You couldn't talk to me about budgeting at all. I thought, I mean, I thought you were going to kill me. I'm sure you want to do at times. Because he would just say the B word, he would say budget, and he could just, right? David Scolari: Oh yeah. Alyssa Scolari: Like, you could just see the change in me. David Scolari: Yeah. Alyssa Scolari: You might not have the answers. You might not be able to talk it out in the moment, but I also think it helps you've learned a lot coming to therapy with me. It helps that I'm a trauma therapist so I've been able to teach you a lot about trauma. For the listeners out there, I don't think everybody kind of has that luxury of happen to be dating or married to somebody who specializes in trauma. One of the things that I think helped you and could help other people out there is go to therapy with your partner. David Scolari: Or find maybe like a support group or something. Alyssa Scolari: Yes. Because, it's very hard. If you are the one supporting the person through their recovery journey, it is very, very difficult and very taxing on the relationship. David has come to therapy with me. I think you learned a lot. You've read books on trauma. I think you've even learned a lot through editing this podcast. David Scolari: Yeah. Also, the nonprofit we worked for did a lot of trauma informed sorts of trainings, even though I myself am not a therapist. All employees did a lot of that sort of training because they wanted to be a trauma informed organization. Alyssa Scolari: Yep. Pick up a book, go to therapy, find a support group, because it's so important to recognize that this is very taxing for our loved ones who are trying to support us through this. What are some ways that you have found that help me and could potentially help other people with trauma, like ground themselves in the moment? David Scolari: Sure. I mean, listen, sometimes I am able to just talk it through a little bit and get you grounded that way. I would say the other way would, I mean honestly, be the dogs. I mean, they do the most ridiculous things during some of your most intense episodes there and it just causes us to laugh. I think that that moment of our dogs laying in the most awkward position possible coming up and licking your face or doing other things just gives that two second break in what you're going through, that dissociation, and kind of makes you laugh for a little bit. You might still be in that dissociation a little bit, but then I see really that you start to come down off of that dissociation because just the dogs and the situations and the things that they do or just they coming up and you petting them just really helps calm you down and kind of grounds you. Sometimes pets, other kind of external stimulus that can be, I don't know, relaxing, or just to kind of break that tension there in a dissociation, I think, can be really helpful or has been helpful for you. Alyssa Scolari: Yeah. I mean, I think redirecting me, sometimes you will get me out of the room that I'm in. Sometimes you'll encourage me to take a bath. Sometimes he will encourage me to work out even when I don't want to, and I might curse the entire time, but then after I do it, I feel better. I think that you help in a big way by taking care of a lot of like the, kind of like the mundane tasks around the house and making sure that I'm like fed and hydrated and taking my meds. You do a lot. I mean, there's a lot that you do that helps me be able to manage all of this. But with that being said, sometimes I think that supporters of those who have trauma, if they take on too much, then their plate gets overwhelmed and there is only so much you can take. Right? One of the reasons why the dogs helped me so much, just because dogs have never hurt me, right? Men have hurt me. Men have abused me. That's why sometimes, as great as you are, you're still a symbol for everything that has hurt me. Sometimes I want nothing to do with you. Sometimes I just need to be with my dogs. Sometimes, I will just verbally kind of assault you. What would you recommend for somebody who's in that position? For somebody who's sort of trying to support their loved one through their PTSD journey, but is also like, okay, I'm kind of at the end of my rope here as well, because I think we get to those spots too as a couple where it can be you're at the end of your rope, I'm at the end of my rope. Okay. Well now what? What do you recommend? David Scolari: I think the key here is really taking care of yourself. Yes. We're going to say that word self care, or maybe it's two words. Is it? Is it two words or is it one word, hyphenated? Alyssa Scolari: It's two words. David Scolari: Two words. All right, well. Alyssa Scolari: Self-care for you. David Scolari: Self-care for me, yes. Alyssa Scolari: Yes. David Scolari: I don't know, reading a book, playing video games, watching my own show that I like or something like that can just give me that mental little break to help me recover a little bit so that the next time you're having an disassociation or whatever, I'm mentally refreshed. I think that's key is, yes, taking care of the person who has that trauma, of course. Cleaning or cooking or making sure the person is taking their meds and encouraging them, sitting through with them as they go through a dissociation or an episode or whatever, those are all things that are important to do. You also, there is something to be said when we hear about self care is you got to take care of yourself before you can take care of somebody else. If you're not eating, if you're not taking a mental break, if you're not doing X, Y, or Z for yourself, that helps you physically and mentally, you're not going to be able to take care of the other person. I think that really is key, to do stuff for yourself. Whatever that may be. Alyssa Scolari: Yeah. I think that that's important because the supporters of those who are in recovery can't pour from an empty cup. I just want to be clear that what we're saying here is not drop everything that's important to you as the supporter and take care of the person going through recovery. It's trying to find a balance of supporting your partner while also taking care of yourself. Wouldn't you agree? David Scolari: Yes, ma'am. Alyssa Scolari: But then I also think that even with all of that being said, right, there are going to be times where it's still going to feel like too much. At that point there also, I think, should be a discussion. Wouldn't you agree? David Scolari: Yeah, sure. Alyssa Scolari: What does that discussion look like? It's not like, "I don't love you and can't help you anymore." Right? But also, like, you can't be expected as the supporter to lay down and kind of take, especially if you're the target, right? Just because we're supporting somebody through PTSD recovery doesn't mean that we kind of lay down and a doormat and allow ourselves to be targets for their anger or rage or whatever it may be. Sometimes we do that as trauma survivors. I do it. I've done it to Dave quite a few times. What do you recommend for people who find themselves in that position, but are afraid to speak up for fear that like, well, this person's already going through so much. I don't want to tell them that what they did hurt my feelings. David Scolari: Yeah. I mean, I think once that person has calmed down and grounded themselves, I think it's perfectly acceptable to then kind of go up and say like, "Hey, listen, I know you were going through that dissociation and whatnot. You were saying X, Y, and Z things because of the trauma you had in the past, but that really hurt." Or, "I didn't like the way you did this or said that." Because I think that's important because everybody's a human being, right? We all make mistakes and we all have feelings and emotions, whether we've been through trauma or not. You, as the support person, are more, are entitled to your feelings and entitled to respect and whatnot. We can understand that the person or the loved one, whoever they are, has been through trauma and is saying these things, again, as we mentioned earlier in the episode. Context is important and we can understand that they're saying this yelling, screaming, crying, saying things to you that may hurt your feelings because, not because again they're a bad person, but because they have had bad things done to them. That being said, you also are a human being who has emotions. You also are entitled to respect and to love and all that stuff. Yeah. Sometimes just saying it and hearing, being able to say like, "Oh yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't mean it. I just was in the dissociation." Like, listen, I know that, I don't get, my feelings may be hurt, but at the end of the day I know it's not you being bad or trying to be mean to me intentionally. Yeah. But even just hearing that sorry, and like, yeah, that was a bridge too far just reaffirms that that love and respect that you have for me And I have for you when helps me move on. Alyssa Scolari: I guess my last question for you is of, it's been such a difficult process and such a hard thing for you to see me through and for me to go through, obviously. What would you say, because I noticed, and I think about this often that if you hadn't seen me through this, you'd be a very different person today. What about you and who you are has changed for the better because of what I've gone through and what you've supported me through? David Scolari: I think I've, one, become more open about talking about my feelings, which is something that I didn't do before I met you. I generally, I'm a private person. I don't like to talk about those things, but having met you- Alyssa Scolari: I'm doing a happy dance right now because it's so true. You didn't like to talk about anything. David Scolari: No, that's true. Alyssa Scolari: Now, here you are pulling stuff out of me. Sorry, I said I wasn't going to steam roll and I'm steam rolling. Go on. David Scolari: No, go right on ahead. It's your podcast. You can do what you want. Yeah. I think, one, talking about my feelings more, whether it's related to something that happened during a dissociation episode, or just something that happened at work or in life in general, just talking more about that, which I think has been extremely helpful for me to kind of be able to talk about and process those things. That's certainly something that's helped me keep me grounded and sane and whatnot. I think at the end of the day, as I learned more and more about you and I love you more each and every single day. Yeah. I think, I know when we started dating and whatnot you were always afraid of, "Well, if I tell him this happened to me or that I'm in therapy or this, he'll love me less." But I don't, I love you more each and every single day. Alyssa Scolari: It's given you a lot more patience. David Scolari: Indeed. Alyssa Scolari: I think it's helped to you to get to know me on a deeper level. David Scolari: Mm-hmm[affirmative]. Alyssa Scolari: It's helped me like in the same regards, it's helped me to get to know you on a deeper level as well. Well, thank you. I appreciate you coming on here, because I know that you're more of a behind the scenes kind of guy. But, it's definitely important. To all the trauma survivors out there, tell your supports how much they mean to you and to the ones who are listening who are supporters, you mean the world to us. We couldn't get through this process without supports in our lives. Thank you. As difficult as it may be sometimes, and I just want to point out that this is David's perspective. This is one person's perspective. Somebody else might feel differently about it. That's okay too. If anybody has any questions about what we talked about and questions for David, please feel free to reach out. You can reach out on my Instagram or my Facebook, or you can email me or go on my website, which is just the Alyssascolari.com. Feel free to ask questions, because this, I think, is a really important topic and not one that we have talked enough about. With that being said, very thankful for my husband, for Dave, for everything that he does for me. The podcast would not be possible without him. Yeah, I think that's all we got. I think that's a wrap. David Scolari: That's a wrap. Alyssa Scolari: The last thing that I wanted to just let you all know is that I have started a Patreon. You will see it in the show notes. We have really, really enjoyed, well, I have really enjoyed creating this podcast and creating this awesome content for all of you. I am honestly shocked that in less than six months this podcast has just taken off. It's taken off in ways that I never thought that it would. As it's gotten bigger and bigger, it's requiring much more time, much more effort, and quite a bit of money. I did start a Patreon. If you like what you hear and you are interested in contributing at all to that, I would greatly appreciate it. Any little bit counts and all the money goes towards really just helping to keep this content awesome. As great as it is, keep it high quality and to just keep things rolling out smoothly on a weekly basis. Just wanted to let you all know about that. Again, any contribution would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening everyone. For more information about today's episode, and to sign up for the Light After Trauma newsletter, head over to my website at Alyssascolari.com. The really great thing about being a part of this newsletter is that not only do you get weekly updates on new podcast episodes and blog posts, but you also get access to the private Facebook community as well as access to all sorts of insider tips, resources, and info graphs that supplement what we talk about on the show. You also can connect with me and other trauma warriors. I'm super active on the Facebook community. I look forward to talking with you. [singing].

Michele Benyo became a Certified Grief Recovery Specialist after her six-year-old son died from cancer. After witnessing her young daughter's intense grief over the loss of her brother, she knew she had to help other parents whose children are grieving the loss of their sibling. Michelle provides incredible insight on the ways in which children grieve and she shares tips for parents who are trying to support their bereaved kid(s). Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Support the Podcast Michele Benyo's website: https://goodgriefparenting.com    Transcript Alyssa Scolari [00:00]: Hey, hey, hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and I hope you all had a lovely holiday. I know we are really in the thick of the holiday season. And I also know it has been a while since we have had a guest on the show, and we are changing that up today. I appreciate Michele's grace. She is going to be our guest today, Michele Benyo. And I appreciate her grace because I have had to reschedule our interview quite a few times due to some health issues that I have been having lately. I'm just very grateful that she is here on the show today. We have a great episode lined up for you. Alyssa Scolari [01:08]: So I'm going to tell you a little bit about who Michele is. Michele Benyo is a mom of two. She's a certified grief recovery specialist, an early childhood parent coach, and the founder of Good Grief Parenting. After her six-year-old son died of cancer, her three-year old daughter said, "Mommy, half of me is gone." This heartbreaking statement defined Michele's life purpose. Alyssa Scolari [01:38]: Her mission is twofold. To help parents through the unimaginable challenges of parenting while grieving the death of a child. And to help parents meet the unique needs of a child who has lost a sibling in the early childhood years. The desire of Michele's heart is to see families live forward after loss toward a future bright with possibilities and even joy. Alyssa Scolari [02:07]: So this is going to be, I take a deep breath and I encourage you all to take a deep breath with me because this is going to be a difficult, but hopefully very inspiring and supportive conversation. And I am just very grateful to have Michele here us today. So without further ado, let us introduce our first guest that we have had in quite a while on the show. Hi, Michele. Michele Benyo [02:36]: Hi Alyssa. I'm so happy to be here. Alyssa Scolari [02:40]: I'm so happy to have you. Again, thank you for your grace. It really means a lot to me. I know lots of the listeners are aware that I've had some health issues going on. I know as I mentioned just a few moments ago, I've had to reschedule Michele quite a few times, so thank you. I'm so happy to have you here. Alyssa Scolari [03:02]: We're talking about a tough topic today. To be perfectly transparent, I am a trauma therapist, so death of course is part of what I work with. But every therapist has certain things that they might not necessarily work with because it might be too triggering for them. And for me, I cannot see people who have lost children, because I have a hard time managing my own emotions around that. Alyssa Scolari [03:41]: This conversation is a very new one for me as well, and I'm really looking forward to hearing your story and learning, because in the learning, I'm hoping that it's going to help me to be able to help more people. Thank you for being here. I guess the first question that I'll ask you is, can you just let us know a little bit about your story? Michele Benyo [04:06]: Yes. Of course. Just to say that your reaction to child loss is so natural of course. I mean it's called the worst loss for a reason. And when I experienced child loss, I didn't know what to do with it. My story was that I was an early childhood parent educator. I had the best job in the world. I got to go to work every day and be with families of young children. Michele Benyo [04:33]: And I was myself, a mom of two young children. My son was four and a half. My daughter was 15 months. And then he got cancer. He was diagnosed with cancer at that age. And I didn't know what to do with that. That's not normal natural child development. And we had to go through a two and a half year journey. And my families in my classes went through it with us. Michele Benyo [05:02]: My son was an amazing teacher as well. He was a very tenderhearted boy and I just thought, oh, this child can't go through this. But he really went through it very well, like a trooper. I mean, he fought it, and that was alarming to me sometimes because he was really aggressive at times. But the doctors and nurses said, no, we want them to have some fight. Those are the kids who make it. Michele Benyo [05:29]: But my daughter was 15 months when her brother was diagnosed. They were very close. And when he died, she was three and a half. And she said to me, "Mommy, half of me is gone." The journey was hard enough, but then realizing what this had done to her, my loss was devastating, but hers was more heartbreaking than mine because here I have a three and a half year old daughter who is facing the rest of her life with half of her gone. Michele Benyo [06:08]: And I knew that was a true statement because of what I know about early childhood development and just the formation of identity and just the impact that this kind of emotional trauma can have on a child's development in those formative years. So I was desperate not to let her grow up broken, with half of her gone. And I thought, well, I'm in the right field. I know where the resources are, but I wasn't able to find any. Michele Benyo [06:40]: And I should say this was 20 years ago. My son died in the year 2000, and my daughter's now 25. I raised her up, learned a lot of things. There were no resources then. And I did need to figure it out on my own. There are a few more resources now, but I still find that siblings and anyone, any one of your listeners who is a bereaved sibling, whatever age, knows how overlooked that demographic is when it comes to grief, and especially really young children. Michele Benyo [07:20]: Not many of them articulate what my daughter did. We don't want to upset kids. Like you say, when a child dies and when a child's exposed to loss, we want to stay away from it. We don't want to deal with it. So I had to figure it out. And now what I learned over my 20 years of just getting my hands on everything I could is what I want to bring to families through Good Grief Parenting, which is the work that I do with parents who are raising young children after losing a child. Alyssa Scolari [07:57]: Yes. Before we began recording, I was going through and preparing and reading about what you do. And I thought to myself, this is such an important niche of people who are almost unnoticed in their grief process. It is unheard of. And I think back, the training I've had, and we have never ever shown any kind of spotlight on children who have lost siblings. I mean specifically children, early childhood, and what that looks like. Alyssa Scolari [08:34]: There is rarely ever a safe space for parents who lose a child, but still have one or multiple children to raise. What do we do? So, A, thank you so much for sharing your story. I'm so thankful. Can you talk a little bit about how did you get to beginning this? Like where was that moment that you shifted from, okay, I need to not just ... Okay, I'm helping myself with this, but you know what? I need to do more. Where did that shift happen for you? Michele Benyo [09:21]: Honestly, Alyssa, that shift happened right away, because I was an early childhood parent educator. It was what I do. Even though I had other careers, I was a high school teacher, I was a communications coordinator. Other careers before I did this, I started doing early childhood parent ed when I had my son. Michele Benyo [09:45]: And it was really where my heart was making good things happen for children and the adults who loved them and raised them. And that was in my heart kind of because of my own upbringing, feeling a little bit misunderstood as a child. My parents weren't bad parents by any means, but I learned I wanted to parent differently. Michele Benyo [10:06]: So I always had my eye on that piece. And here came something in my own life that was so huge that I didn't know anything about, even with my training. So I knew then that as I was going, I would need to, especially when I found nothing else out there that I would need to do this. But as I said, that was 20 years ago. Michele Benyo [10:30]: And I founded Good Grief Parenting only within the last five years, because my own grief and my own journey and my own focus on my daughter was so primary for me, I just wasn't able to really ... I knew I wasn't able to step into other people's stories yet. And now I am. Now she's raised. And so it really was very early on that I recognized that whatever I was able to glean, I was going to need to share. So this has been in my mind and has been sharpened and adjusted and learned over the last 20 years. Alyssa Scolari [11:14]: Wow! Now, can you talk a little bit about what's very important for adults and for parents to know about the way that younger children grieve in cases and tragedies like this? Michele Benyo [11:35]: I think I would address that by saying that where I start in working with families is looking at what we believe about grief and how we handle grief as a society. And the way we handle it as a society with adults is that it's something to avoid, something that we don't want to talk about. We don't want to bother the griever. And with children, that is so easy to do because they don't usually look like they're grieving. So what we know about children. Michele Benyo [12:06]: A story that I have about my daughter that gives me, again, just conviction in this statement that even really young children grieve, which not that many years ago, we didn't really believe they did. My daughter, as I mentioned was 15 months old when her brother went to the hospital. For the very first time he had to stay overnight. His dad went with him. We had been through a couple weeks of figuring out what wrong with him and getting this devastating diagnosis. Michele Benyo [12:37]: And that night I was home with her. And she was, as I said, 15 months old. Was wailing. She started wailing and making just an inhuman sound. It was alarming to me. I was scared of how she sounded. She was wandering around the house upstairs and down to the garage door and up to David's bed and just wandering. And as I would try to go to her and comfort her, she'd push me away and throw herself on the floor. Michele Benyo [13:11]: She was distraught with every cell in her little body. And I wasn't a mess. I was pretty composed, but she had been in our home when this disruption was happening. And she had absorbed it and she knew her brother and her dad were gone. And this was, she was grieving. She was grieving the loss of her security. And so that coupled with what she was able to say to me two and a half years later, made me just really, really understand how deeply young children grieve. Michele Benyo [13:48]: And so, they don't show it. Even after she said, mommy, half of me is gone, if you looked at her, she didn't. You wouldn't see in her like you might see in me that she was grieving. And we tend not to talk to them because we don't want to upset them. But I knew enough by the time we went through this, that she had been very involved with the whole journey, because we weren't going to leave her with neighbors and friends while the three of us were together. Not after that first night where she reacted the way she did. Michele Benyo [14:25]: She was with us in the children's hospital, and so she was very exposed to it. And I just knew that we would talk about this. That we were open about it. And I had to educate other adults around her that Deanna will talk about her brother. We talk about her brother. You'll talk about her brother. So the other thing is recognizing that kids need and want to talk about what they've been through. Whatever kind of trauma it is, they really need to be able to give it voice. Alyssa Scolari [15:00]: Yeah. And I think that that's very important to say that children grieve so much differently, and it's just not in the way that adults would grieve because typically for any type of loss, even adults who experience loss, there are simply no words. There are no words that could ever exist that convey what grief feels like. So as adults, we struggle to find the language. Alyssa Scolari [15:28]: So you look at a young child who doesn't even have their full range of vocabulary. Their brains are barely developed, and their grief is simply not going to come out in words, it's going to come out in other ways. Like you said, your daughter was throwing herself on the floor because grief and trauma is stored, first and foremost, in your body, before you even have words. Michele Benyo [15:53]: Yes. It will be in their play. That's why play therapy is so effective with children. That's what we did with Deanna in the beginning. She was three and a half, and we found a play therapist for her, so that that person could just listen to her and watch her play and talk to her about what she was playing because she was playing about bun bun. Her nickname was bunny. Michele Benyo [16:19]: They play about the person who died, and they might play about a funeral or some kind of thing like that, and we can learn so much by just paying attention to what they're doing. Like you say often, their play might be very aggressive and physical. And their behavior may be what we mistake as misbehavior, because they don't know how to get it out any other way. Alyssa Scolari [16:48]: Exactly. Exactly. Absolutely. Now, talking about play therapy, with Good Grief Parenting, can you explain like the general approach in your Good Grief Parenting? As I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you work with both the children who have lost a sibling as well as parents? Or do you work with the parents to help them to help their children? Michele Benyo [17:12]: I work with the parents. I don't work with the children because parents are going to be with these kids for the rest of their lives. And these kids are going to have needs for the rest of their lives. I came across a quote early on in my building of Good Grief Parenting. And it is so perfect to kind of explain what I do. And it's a quote by an author named Anne Roiphe, who wrote a book after her husband died. And in it, she said, there are two parts to grief. The first part is loss. And the second part is the remaking of life. Michele Benyo [17:49]: So when we have the support groups and the things that are there right after we've had the loss. Deanna went to support groups at the hospital, so did I. But then after our eight weeks, the rest of her life is ahead of her. I as a parent understood, and probably more than a lot of parents, because I was in the field of early childhood development, that this was going to affect so much about her life for the rest of her life. And how did I parent her with that grief-informed approach to parenting, and there was no one out there doing that? Michele Benyo [18:25]: So I really am the longer term look at raising these children, not just getting through the loss, because play therapy helps with that. The support groups and the art activities and the things that help kids process it, help with that. But then what about the rest of their lives when they're encountering all kinds of secondary losses? They go to school and do their little stories on their family and they are ... Deanna's sibling, I coin the term sibling by heart, because she's a sibling, but her brother isn't alive to look at her. She looks like an only. She's not an only. There's a big difference between a child who's born an only, and a child who is an only because their sibling died. Michele Benyo [19:21]: Yeah. So a lot of needs, a lot of behaviors that children are going to express. When a child experiences the loss of a sibling at a young age, they're going to reprocess that over and over again as they get older and have a better understanding of what that means to them and how that affected their life and changed their life, and the void that's there. Michele Benyo [19:46]: So I work with parents for the long haul. I am a certified grief specialist, and we start there, because before the parent can help the child, they need to make sure their needs are being met. And their grief is being held gently because you can't help your child with grief if you can't help yourself with grief. I start with that piece, and get parents stabilized in recognizing how some of the things we think about grief, that we avoid it. We don't talk about it. We don't talk to kids. How to do those things differently and in more healthy ways. And then we move into just, really, what does parenting look like? Alyssa Scolari [20:31]: Yeah. Yeah. So I really appreciate that you help. What I hear you saying is you help people in the, when they are more or less emerging from the immediate crisis and the acute trauma. I think that's very important because that's when so many people and so many supports pull out. Are you familiar with David Kessler? Michele Benyo [20:57]: Yes. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Alyssa Scolari [21:01]: The book, was it The Sixth Stage of Grief book, Finding Meaning? I believe he put out a book a few years ago. I believe it's The Sixth Stage of Grief. I've talked about it on the podcast, so the listeners, I'm sure you've heard me talk about this before, is a phenomenal book. But one of the things that he talks about, and then I think so many people who come into my office who have had any kind of loss struggle with is in the beginning, when a loss first happens, everybody gathers round, and everybody is there and people are bringing food and people are checking in. Alyssa Scolari [21:34]: And then typically after the memorial service or the funeral or whatever kind of service there may be, it dies off. That is when things get so difficult, because of all of the, like you said, secondary losses. So that is where you come in to help support parents when they're sort of like, okay, now what? Now how do I keep breathing? Michele Benyo [22:07]: Yes. Yeah. That is just so difficult. And that is really, I think, where the difference about child loss is so apparent. I mean, that happens with any griever, supports go away later. But when it's a child, it's like it's this triple taboo topic to talk about the fact that a child died. And so people just don't want to entertain it. They don't want to upset the family, the parents, and they don't want to think about it because they've got their own little kids, and they don't want to think about the possibility that they could experience that. Michele Benyo [22:46]: I even remember that for myself. I had some friends who had serious things with their kids before my son was diagnosed. And I remember finding myself feeling bad for those families and thinking sort of statistically or whatever, that that was probably the closest I was going to get to it. Somehow thought that knowing these other families that were experiencing this meant that I wouldn't, in some crazy way. And then there I was. Yeah. Our relationships change so drastically with the people around us. Alyssa Scolari [23:30]: Yeah. They really do. They really do. Now, can you speak a little bit about the stages of grief. I know we were talking a little bit about this before we hit that record button. But for so many people out there, and I know that a quite a few listeners of the podcasts are therapists. And a lot of us, when it comes to grief, we are taught what feels like a very simple formula. Grief, here are the five stages. Now, David Kessler has now, there is a six stage, which is finding meaning. Tell me about your thoughts and your opinions on these stages of grief and how they are used, and if they are accurate to what people truly feel? Michele Benyo [24:24]: I don't think they are accurate. And I don't think they're helpful because so many people lean on it. I remember when I lost my son, I knew nothing about grief. And I had friends, people who were not professional in any way, quoting these stages to me, that I was now going to go through. And I didn't go through them. I didn't in any way, shape or form. And I kept thinking, why aren't I angry? Why aren't I this? Why aren't I that? And I felt like I was doing grief wrong. And I kept looking for these things to happen to me. Michele Benyo [25:12]: And I think the reason that there's so many articles out there and people out there who really misuse those stages, and I think that's the danger about them because Elisabeth Kübler-Ross didn't design these as the stages of grief. She stated these stages as what a person goes through when they themselves have had a terminal diagnosis, which is very different. Because I think if I had been diagnosed myself, those stages would've been a bit more apparent in me. Michele Benyo [25:48]: But I think so many people are not really trained in grief, and they grab a hold of what they've heard, and they want to offer something to the griever, so they offer this. And I have been just so appreciative to see that there are many other ways of viewing grief that are now available. I like to think about how William Worden talks about the different tasks that we have. And I love that we now talk about how significant continuing bonds are as opposed to what Freud used to tell us, which is get over the relationship and move on. Michele Benyo [26:30]: And so I think, as you know, because you work with people who go through trauma and you don't see ... People don't go through it the same. They all go through it in their own way. And you need to really, as you know, look at what they're experiencing, and honor that. And help people through it without them feeling like there's a particular way that they're supposed to do it. Michele Benyo [26:55]: So I stay away from the stages myself because I look at some of the other things that are going to be happening in the families that they're going to need to be dealing with. And the fact that since I look at sibling loss and early childhood sibling loss, that griever that I'm focused on, the sibling is going to change in so many ways as they mature and develop cognitively and experientially. Their grief is going to change drastically. Alyssa Scolari [27:28]: Yes. I'm sure it's continuously changing. Always. Now, I just want to make sure I heard you correctly because this is a fascinating little fact that I don't think many people know. Did you say that the five stages of grief were originally created in response to a person being diagnosed with a terminal illness? Michele Benyo [27:47]: Yes. Yeah. They were not the stages of grief. They were the stages that a person goes through, who's been diagnosed with a terminal illness. So, yeah. Kind of a different take. Alyssa Scolari [27:59]: Okay. So if I learned that in grad school, I apologize to my professors because that is so interesting how we have taken that and sort of just generalized it to all grief. All grief. That is really, really fascinating. So with your approach, what would you say, because I know sometimes you talk about the four keys to helping young children heal from grief. Can you share those with us? Michele Benyo [28:29]: Yes. I have a Good Grief Parenting framework that is sort of four pillars. I call them heartbeats. But then I also just offer these four simple things that I think any adult who works with children because ... So Michele's telling us now that we're supposed to deal with this with our kids, and we're supposed to talk to them. That feels scary, I think, to a lot of adults. Michele Benyo [28:56]: And so, first of all, the first key is, as I said, take care of yourself and make sure that you're meeting your own needs. And that doesn't mean just bubble baths and walks in the woods. It means figuring out what it is that you really need in the midst of this crisis that you're having, and this devastating loss that you've experienced. Michele Benyo [29:21]: And then making sure that you are speaking up for yourself and getting your needs met and taking time to do that and getting the support you need, even though you have young children. Parenting and grieving are the two toughest roles that adults and families have. And when you've got to do them at the same time, how do you do that? So self-care has to come first. As important as your little person is, and they are, they're relying on you totally, you need to take care of yourself first. Michele Benyo [29:58]: And then the other key is recognizing that rather than shying away from the loss and kind of avoiding it and kind of not wanting to bring it up to upset anybody, that continuing bonds piece of building the relationship and continuing it forward in new ways is so important for yourself and for your child because that sibling bond doesn't end. I have met adults who lost a sibling as a young child whose parents never talked about that child again. And they grew up with this void and with this feeling that something was off that they could never quite deal with. Michele Benyo [30:43]: And some of the research that I discovered later as I continue to look at this really showed that people who kept that relationship, bereaved siblings, bereaved as children who kept that relationship felt good about it. Felt good that they had it, even though their sibling wasn't there. So that continuing bonds, finding ways to honor that child in your family or that loved one in your family is a healing thing. So when people tell you, you shouldn't keep your child's things in the house or get rid of their picture or whatever, your gut feeling that, no, I want to keep these here, is correct. You are the one that knows what's best for you. So continuing bonds is a second key. Michele Benyo [31:35]: And the third one is conversation, having conversations with your child around this loss and around other griefs as well. I share the story of all of us experience grief in childhood first, and it's not always the death of a loved one. For me, the first grief that I remember was the loss of a floating toy. I was at the lake, and he got away. Wally the walrus, my riding floating toy that was so fun, got away from me, and he started to float off. And the adults who could swim, tried to get him, but the wind took him out of reach. Michele Benyo [32:19]: And I had to stand on the beach and watch him float. I watched him until he was a dot on the horizon. And I felt, I mean to this day, and that was decades ago, to this day I feel that feeling of, oh, I've lost him. He's gone. I'm never going to get him back. And that's what grief is. Mark Twain has a quote that says, and I'm paraphrasing it, but it's in all matters of grief, a child's loss of a doll and a king's loss of a crown are losses of the same weight. Michele Benyo [32:59]: The fourth key then is to honor grief, to honor childhood grief, so that kids can learn that grief is natural. Yes, it was just a toy, which is what many of us as adults would say, and we can get a new one. Or the dog is hit by a car, we'll get a new puppy. Well, fine, but it won't be that puppy. I mean grief is something that we need to help children recognize is very real and normal and natural. And we experience it, we experience loss, and then this is how we live forward. Those are the four keys. Michele Benyo [33:43]: The first one is that self-care. The second one is maintain continuing bonds. The third one is to invite conversation. And the fourth one is to honor grief, even children's grief. If I lost Wally the walrus today, it wouldn't be a case for grief with me, because I'm an adult, but it was for me as a child. Alyssa Scolari [34:06]: It was. Absolutely. Michele Benyo [34:07]: Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [34:08]: Incredible advice. Absolutely incredible. Thank you for that. I've learned so, so much, and I can only imagine that the listeners have learned so much too. Even phrases like siblings by heart and secondary loss, these are things that are not talked about a lot, but are so, so crucial and vital. We've also talked a lot about the importance of communication. How it is so important to continue this conversation. Now, is that what you would say is one of the biggest mistakes that parents or adults would make regarding children and grief? Michele Benyo [34:50]: Yes. I would put it at the very top. Alyssa Scolari [34:52]: Very top. Michele Benyo [34:55]: Yeah. That idea that we don't want to talk about it. Like my daughter, when she was 15 months old, she was picking up the vibes. I mean, when they're around us and we're experiencing this, they pick up on it. They're very perceptive. They're watching us. They're listening to us. They're feeling us. Michele Benyo [35:19]: And if we don't tell them what's happening, they are going to feel very insecure, very worried, very scared. They're going to see us being upset, and they're going to wonder, is mom going to be able to take care of me? She's not herself. So talking to them is really the most important thing we can do. And we don't need to tell them everything. We just need to tell them enough so that they know what's going on. Of course, be age appropriate. Michele Benyo [35:51]: And one of the things that is so counterintuitive for adults is that we really should use the word dead and died. That's the only word that really tells the child what happened. If we use those other words, they don't quite know what that means. Alyssa Scolari [36:11]: Right. It's very confusing for children to say words or phrases like, your brother or sister gained their wings. Or your brother and sister are in heaven. Like it's very confusing for kids. Michele Benyo [36:22]: Yes. Yes. And it's true that young children, three and a half younger, don't necessarily know what dead means, but they get the vocabulary word, just like they get all the other for vocabulary words that we give them, and they grow into understanding it. And we can tell them, your brother died. He can't talk to you anymore. He can't feel. His body stopped working. And he can't do these things anymore. You can tell him that we bury him or whatever, or just that they're not going to see him again. Michele Benyo [37:03]: And then let their questions guide the information that you give them. And that's why as they get older and they understand it more, then they're going to ask some of the questions they maybe didn't ask earlier. But they still know that what happened is this thing called dead. And so they never have any doubt that they're not going to see this person again. Alyssa Scolari [37:26]: Exactly. Exactly. Thank you. Michele Benyo [37:28]: And they're not afraid of that the way we are. Adults don't want to use those words. I had to learn to say my son died. I had to learn to be able to get that phrase out to anybody, let alone my daughter, because we don't want to describe it that way. But to my daughter, it's just a word. It's what happened. Kids don't shy away from that word the way adults do. Alyssa Scolari [37:55]: Right. Kids do not attach the same level of heaviness or stigma or shame to so many words. That's something children learn as they grow into adults. We learn so much from children. Michele Benyo [38:09]: We do. Alyssa Scolari [38:10]: We really do. We really do. That's a whole another podcast- Michele Benyo [38:14]: That is. Alyssa Scolari [38:17]: Michele, thank you so much for being here today. If people would like to find you, where can people reach you? Michele Benyo [38:24]: They can reach me at my website, goodgriefparenting.com. Right at the top of that page, they can download a copy of my Good Grief Guide. So it's the Good Grief Guide on goodgriefparenting.com. And in the Good Grief Guide, I actually do provide more information about some of these ideas of grief that are misleading for us and how we cope with it. As well as suggestions for actually how to talk to kids, because that's the other thing. Okay, you tell me to talk to my child, how exactly do I do that? Michele Benyo [39:03]: So I would just ask all of your listeners to download this Good Grief Guide, whether or not you know anyone right now, any child right now who's grieving, so that you have it when you need it. Or you have it to share with someone who may need it. And you don't have to go looking for how to do this. And hopefully you never will need it, but you may, and you may be able to support someone else. And then if you want to reach me personally, my website is the place to do that as well. So that's goodgriefparenting.com. Alyssa Scolari [39:39]: Yes. That's even a great resource to keep on hand for the therapist. My therapist listeners, something I definitely will be keeping on hand for myself as well. You all know the drill, the link is in the show notes. So go on over, check that out. Alyssa Scolari [39:58]: Michele, thank you again for joining me and for being so vulnerable, sharing your story. This is a really hard thing to talk about, but I learned so much and I appreciate the work that you are doing, because you are not alone in what you have gone through, and you are speaking so that others can feel supported. Thank you so much for everything that you are doing. Michele Benyo [40:27]: Thank you, Alyssa. I was very happy to have the opportunity to be here. Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [40:33]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram we are @lightaftertrauma. And on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support. [singing].

Holiday gatherings are a struggle for anyone who battles with an eating disorder. With society's ever-growing encouragement to avoid “holiday weight gain”, it can feel harder than ever to be able to enjoy yourself during big meals. Tune into this week's episode for tips on how to manage your eating disorder symptoms this holiday season (Spoiler alert: You should NOT go all day without eating in order to prepare for a big meal!). Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Support the Podcast   Transcript:     Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hi, everybody. Welcome back. You know the drill. It's another episode of the Light After Trauma Podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari, thrilled as ever to be here with you today. At the time of this recording, it is just a few days before Thanksgiving. So we are going to be talking about how to avoid binge eating and other eating disordered related behaviors, specifically during the holiday or right after, or right before, because I know that's a really, really difficult time for folks. That's when people tend to binge eat or purge by use of whether it's exercise or laxatives or what have you. So we are going to get into that. It might be a little bit shorter of an episode today, but bear with me as there's a lot going on and I am actually getting a minor test/procedure done this week. So yeah, it's been very, very busy. Alyssa Scolari [01:32]: Next week we actually will be back with a guest episode. This is the first guest episode we have had in quite a while. So I'm looking forward. I have finally been feeling well enough that I have been able to record podcast episodes with people again. So thank you for all of your well wishes. Alyssa Scolari [01:48]: Now, just a few housekeeping things before. I mean, I really don't even have enough words to be able to express how I feel. Thank you just doesn't seem to do it justice. It doesn't really seem to accurately reflect how I feel. Alyssa Scolari [02:14]: Now, the last several months have been really difficult for me and I have just been feeling, especially this week, just really sad with the state of the world. I know for a lot of trauma survivors, there tends to be this like phenomenon where we feel in some way, shape, or form at our core, like we are not going to live as long as other people. We always feel like we're dying or we're going to die. And this might not be true for everyone, but it is true for so many trauma survivors and I struggle with that. I've definitely been feeling a little bit of like some type of, I guess, existential dread or just maybe grief, just I think pure grief at the state of the world and feeling so sad at certain things that are going on. And I was feeling really hopeless this week. Alyssa Scolari [03:16]: A few days ago, I was actually crying, which I probably do once every other day. So it's not that big of a deal, but I was crying and I was just sort of saying to my husband that I just feel like, especially as mental health professionals, we are working so hard, but the mental health crisis has grown so much. And so much of it is because of the state of the world and it's just breaking my heart. I was feeling helpless and I happened to go look at my email and I saw that I had an email from my Patreon account. Alyssa Scolari [03:59]: Sometimes I advertise this on the show that I do have a Patreon, which is just this account where people can go and they can donate however much money they would like per month, or it can be a one-time donation, and that money goes directly to supporting the podcast. I've had that Patreon for months now and I don't have any patrons. I did have one patron that was my dear friend Owen. I was supporting his podcast. He was supporting my podcast. That was lots of fun, but I hadn't had anyone who sort of was just a listener who had signed up to become a patron, which is okay. I understand with the state of the world, people really don't have a whole lot to give, so that's totally fine. Alyssa Scolari [04:49]: But I happened to get an email from my Patreon and I got my first patron, which was so amazing and so exciting, but what was also really, really exciting was the message that this patron left for me. And I'm going to read a little bit of it. It was very, very special to me. I hope that this does not come off as bragging in any way because it's not, but I just thought that I would read it and I'm not going to name this person. I'm going to keep any kind of details about this person out of the message, but the gist of it is: Alyssa Scolari [05:31]: "Hey there Alyssa. I've recently discovered your podcast and I love, love, love it/you. I am literally going to love listening to every single episode over the coming weeks. So far, everything I've listened to has touched me so deeply to know that I'm not alone in what I've experienced/am still experiencing. I'm only just realizing that I have lived my whole adult life with CPTSD following my childhood experience, which I would've never called trauma before, but now I realize that's exactly what it was. I loved your recent episode about this very topic. It felt like you were speaking just to me. You are so amazing and I love how you express all of these difficult things so eloquently and your sense of humor shines through always. I feel like we're friends already, so please keep it up because your words are helping me so much as I continue on my healing journey." Alyssa Scolari [06:33]: I got this message and I absolutely lost it. I needed a good 24 hours before I could even respond just to process the depth of what this message said. And there's more to it, but I don't want to go through everything because I don't want to risk that person possibly being identified. But suffice it to say it was just the kindest message about the ways in which that this person has felt helped and supported from the podcast, and that helped me so much to shift out of this feeling of helplessness to like, "Oh yeah, look at what I am doing." Sometimes it can feel a little bit isolating because I'm talking into this microphone and I don't fully know who's listening. I can see numbers, I can see what my downloads are like, but I don't know if people are truly benefiting from this. Alyssa Scolari [07:33]: So when people reach out and they tell me, it really, really helps to me, and it really helped pull me out of the depression. And it just, it meant so much to me. The kind words, and of course becoming a patron and pledging a certain amount of money, it was so kind and so generous and I just really appreciate that. Alyssa Scolari [07:56]: The goal of the podcast is to continue to spread awareness and get the word out to as many people as possible, because I do believe that everyone deserves access to free or somewhat free mental health care. It's vital, but it's not free. So that was part of the goal of this podcast and it does cost... Alyssa Scolari [08:22]: Part of the reason why we even have the Patreon set up is because it does cost quite a bit of money to run this podcast between everything that goes into it. Having to purchase the website or the software that puts the podcast out into to the world, having to purchase all the materials to make all the artwork and to do all of the social media posts and the editing, all of that stuff comes down... It costs about $800 a month, thereabouts, to be able to keep this podcast rolling. And that is not me complaining, because I'm not right. Obviously if we did not have the funds to be able to do that, I wouldn't be doing it. I would be scaling back. But again, I believe that it's really, really important for people to have access to free mental health care. So this podcast is very important. So I do not mind the money that goes into it. Alyssa Scolari [09:25]: With that said, it always is really, really nice because if a few people are able to give $2 a month or $3 a month or $1 a month. Whatever they're able to give, whatever you are able to give goes towards the podcast and it's really, really helpful. It's just very helpful financially and ultimately will create the space and will give me the financial ability to do even more things like create online courses that people can access and things like that. Alyssa Scolari [10:00]: Aside from the money, which I am so, so grateful for, and it's so exciting to have my first patron, which by the way, if you are able to give, I would greatly appreciate it. You can go right to the website, which is www.lightaftertrauma.com, or you can go right to the show notes. There's a link in the show notes that says support the podcast. I would greatly appreciate it. Alyssa Scolari [10:23]: But aside from the money, this message gave me so much hope and healing at a time where all I could feel was despair. So thank you, thank you, thank you to all of you who have reached out to me, who are telling me that you're enjoying what you're hearing. Your words do not go... I don't take that for granted. In fact, I actually keep the messages that I get. I put them into like a Word document and I print them out. And of course, nobody's name is used, nothing like that, no identifying information. Of course, your privacy is very important to me, but the messages I keep and on my lowest days, I go back in and I pull them out and I am reminded of the family that I have made, the family I have all across the world because of this podcast. So thank you. Before I absolutely sob, I will move on, but just thank you. I, I just can't... I don't have words. Alyssa Scolari [11:38]: With that said, let's transition a little bit into the upcoming holiday or holidays, whatever holidays that are coming up that you are celebrating. I know lots of people tend to get very, very nervous about Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving tends to be... I actually remember being an eating disorder treatment. And when I was there, it was sort of a general consensus that Thanksgiving was one of the most triggering holidays for people who struggle with eating disorders. And for me, it was so difficult. Thanksgiving was a huge, huge binge day for me, huge binge day. And it wasn't just Thanksgiving. It was sort of the days leading up to Thanksgiving, then during Thanksgiving, and then after Thanksgiving. So this episode is really focused on how to function and how to beat the binge, how to beat relapsing when we have big holidays like this. Alyssa Scolari [12:50]: Now the first thing that I recommend is you treating the day like any other day. What do I mean by that? So many people... I remember growing up and a lot of the adults in my life being like, "Oh my God, I haven't eaten all day to prepare for this meal. I am starving." So I naturally just sort of assumed that when you were going to have a big meal, you weren't supposed to eat all day. So I didn't for so many years. And then what would happen is I would skip breakfast, skip like lunch, and we would have Thanksgiving dinner and I would binge and I would be just hoarding food into my mouth. And when people weren't looking, I was like taking extra bites or scooping food onto my plate when I thought no one was looking at me because I couldn't get enough, because I was so famished. It doesn't need to be like that. Alyssa Scolari [14:00]: So the most important thing is for you to wake up and eat. And that might go against everything that you are eating disorder tells you to do. That might go against what the people in your family are doing. That might go against what your partner is doing, but you need to eat your food. It is so important. So have a good breakfast. If you don't have lunch, okay, because sometimes people eat... I know most people have Thanksgiving dinner at like two or three o'clock. In my family, we always had it at like six o'clock, 6:30. So you can bet I was eating breakfast and lunch. I was having all the meals. And then when it was time to eat, I wasn't ravenous and ready to just eat everything in sight, without even thinking about what I was eating, or really checking in with my body at all. Alyssa Scolari [15:05]: The next thing I want to talk about is a lot of things you see on the internet will say, which I think that people think this is helpful, and I don't necessarily think it is. So a lot of people will say things like, "Well, you need to shift your focus of the holiday. Don't make the holiday about food. What you need to do is you need to make the holiday about gratitude or family or Jesus or this or that, or whatever." Whatever it is that you want to make the holiday about, so many people will tell us like, "Don't make that holiday about food." And I'm going to call BS on that because I think that that too sets us up for binge eating. And the reason why I think that is because it is not realistic to pretend like the food doesn't matter on a holiday. Alyssa Scolari [16:04]: There's a reason why people love going to Epcot in Disney, in Orlando, Florida. And that is because you get to eat around the world. Yes, it's really nice to look at the knickknacks and the statues and the other different types of cultural things that are in the different parts of the worlds in Epcot. I say worlds with air quotes, because it's all in the same park, but what people go there for is the food and the drink. And that is because food is so deeply tied into our culture. Food is so important. And when we try to tell ourselves that we need to shift out of being excited about the food, and instead think about other things, then we're denying our culture. We're denying who we are on a fundamental level, which listen, I'm a foodie. I am a foodie. Alyssa Scolari [17:06]: If somebody tells me not to make a big deal out of a food that's going to be there, I get flooded with shame because it goes against who I am quite frankly. I'm coming for the food. I mean, I'm staying for the company, don't get me wrong, but I'm coming for the food. And that is okay. It is okay to love the food. So allow yourself to be excited for the food. Please don't do what's so much of the internet and diet culture and disguise is going to tell you to do, which is to like make a gratitude list. Alyssa Scolari [17:42]: Listen, if you want to make a gratitude list, by all means, please do. I think that that is a great idea to be able to shift your mindset and get you in a good head space, but also make sure if you do a gratitude list, that one of the things you're grateful for is the bombass food you're about to eat because it is so important. Food is a part of life and we are meant to enjoy food. And certain foods nourish our bodies and other foods nourish our souls and we need both and we love both. Amen. Okay, I'm done with that part. Alyssa Scolari [18:22]: The next thing I want to talk about is figuring out what your boundaries are going to look like. And some of this ties into, and you can find this in an older episode that I put out a few weeks ago about setting boundaries with your family around the holidays, but it's important to touch on... So I'm going to touch on it again briefly. You want to make sure that you are sitting by people or surrounding yourself with people who are not going to engage in the diet talk. So please, please, please if you need to send this to a family member, this is the message and the notice to not bring up diets during the holidays, during the meals. Please, please, please. And don't surround yourself with people who you think are going to bring that up. Alyssa Scolari [19:24]: Listen, sometimes it's unavoidable. I know for me, it was unavoidable. I had no choice. But you sit at a table with people at certain times in my life who can talk about nothing but, "Oh, I have to work this off." And, "Oh, I can't have this because it's too much sodium," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sometimes you can't get around it. Sometimes you have no choice. Alyssa Scolari [19:46]: Here's what I would like to recommend. If somebody starts to talk about the calories or the carbs or the fat content or the salt content, get up and go to the bathroom. Give yourself permission to get up and go to the restroom. As uncomfortable as it may make you, get up because you don't deserve to have to sit there and listen to that crap. And it's not even just about that very moment, because this is what often happened to me when I was in the height of my binge eating or in the height of my anorexia. What would happen to me is I would be sitting with people and somebody would say something. For example, I went to my cousin's... Was it a cousin? I don't know. Some family member's baby shower... No, wedding shower? I don't know. Some family member shower. This was like in the throes of my anorexia. So I had lost a significant amount of weight, but because I was heavier, I was being praised for it. Alyssa Scolari [21:06]: I saw this audio clip on TikTok and I don't know whose audio clip it was. So I can't give them credit. But if you happen to hear this and you want the credit, please reach out to me and let me know. But it was this audio that said: when you are already thin and you develop an eating disorder, you go to the hospital. But when you have fat on your body and you develop an eating disorder, you are a success story. Alyssa Scolari [21:33]: So at that point in my life, at that shower, I was a success story to everybody. People could not get enough of me at that shower. "Oh my God, how did you lose so much weight? You look amazing," blah, blah, blah. I had a piece cake, a singular piece of cake at the shower. And I went to go sit down at the table and a family member from three... I shit you not, three tables over, stood up. She stood the fuck up and she said to me, "You better be carefully eating that cake because I don't want to see you put all that weight back on." [inaudible 00:22:12] the shame and the guilt. Alyssa Scolari [22:16]: So in that moment, did I do anything about it? No. Because I was such a people pleaser back then and I didn't know how to fully be in touch with my rage, I just laughed it off and just said, "Oh yeah, don't worry about it. I'll be fine." And I maybe took two bites of my cake, couldn't eat anymore. But then I went home that night. And while it wasn't necessarily on my conscious mind that content or that comment, that night and the next day I found myself binging and binging and binging and engaging in purging tactics and I could not stop. Looking back on it, I understand now that I felt so much rage that that family member said that to me, that it led me to use my eating disorder because so much of my eating disorder was about my ability or my lack of ability to feel comfortable and confident in my anger and to be able to use my anger appropriately. So I just ate to stuff all of my emotions down and it was the night after the shower. It was the day after. It was horrible. Alyssa Scolari [23:34]: And that is how most Thanksgivings would go for me too. I would hear at the kitchen or at the table about, "Oh, I'm, I got to make sure I get on the scale and get back on weight watchers on Monday," and all of these really triggering things. And maybe in the moment I wasn't thinking I was very affected by it, but then I would bring leftovers home from Thanksgiving. And then that night and the next day I was binging on all the leftovers. Looking back on it now, I realize it's because I was feeling pissed off and constricted and triggered by people who were just obsessing over dieting. Alyssa Scolari [24:22]: So it is really important. Move your seat, try to change your seat, try to sit next to people who are safe and have a support. If you can't have a support when you are at that meal, then make sure you have somebody on the phone. And if somebody starts talking about dieting and exercise, just go to the bad bathroom, go to the bathroom. And if you get up and go to the bathroom enough times, people get it. People actually start to catch on and then it's not uncomfortable because people start to see what's happening. Again, not everybody, but either way, at least if you get up and go to the bathroom, or if you say, "Oh my gosh, somebody's calling me. I really need to take this. Excuse me." Anything. "Oh, I need a glass of water. I'll be right back." Let it take you five minutes to get a glass of water. You don't owe anybody anything. Alyssa Scolari [25:19]: Here's some other things that I have found really, really helpful. Check in with your body throughout the day. If you can't bring a notebook with you, then I find it really helpful to at least go into the notes section on your phone and start tracking your hunger and fullness levels. Not to judge. Try to track them without judgment, but just to get a sense of where you are. Again, if you want to eat more, that's okay. Let yourself eat more, but sometimes during big meals like this, we tend to check out. Trauma causes us to be disconnected from our bodies anyway. But then when you have a big meal and a holiday on top of that, we're super checked out and dissociated and not in our bodies at all. So just have an intentional check-in, do a one to 10 hunger fullness scale and just take a note. This might be triggering for some people. So if you feel like it would be triggering for you, then please don't do it. But I know that for me, I had to intentionally... Alyssa Scolari [26:34]: In the earlier stages of my recovery, I had to intentionally write down what exactly I was feeling in terms of like, I had to give it a numerical value in order for me to really feel connected with my body at all. If you think that would help you, please do that. Alyssa Scolari [26:54]: Here's something else I want you to remember. You are not going to gain a significant amount of weight from eating past fullness. You don't have to eat past fullness on this day because the very, very foods, the very exact same foods that will be on that Thanksgiving table or that Christmas table, or that Hanukkah table are the same foods you can have all year round. I feel like nobody tells us that. Those same mashed potatoes, we can have all year round. You can roast a turkey all year round. You can have green bean casserole, cranberry sauce. Heck yeah, it's in season for the fall. Have it all year round. You do not need to overeat because you can eat those foods time and time and time again, however much your heart desires, as long as you're checking in with your body. Alyssa Scolari [27:56]: With that being said, if you do overeat, if you do eat well past fullness, that's okay too, because eating well past fullness on a holiday meal is not going to make you gain weight. It's simply not. It takes a lot more calories than people think to be able to cause true weight gain, which means... When I say true weight gain, our weight fluctuates. Especially if you are a woman, your weight fluctuates so much because of where you're at in your cycle, because of water weight, inflammation, what have you. So when I say true weight, I mean it takes a lot of calories for like one extra pound of fat to form on your body. I'm talking a lot, a lot. And I forget the exact number and I tried to look it up, but I could not find the source where I read it before. So if I find it, I will definitely let you know. But trust me, it's not as easy as people think it is to truly gain like pounds and pounds of fat. And you sure as hell are in doing it in one meal on Thanksgiving. Alyssa Scolari [29:13]: So if you eat past fullness, dude, it is fine. It is so, so fine. I want you to tell yourself this over and over and over again, you are allowed to eat past fullness. It doesn't make you any of the things that you're telling yourself in your head. Doesn't make you a slob. It doesn't make you fat. It doesn't make you out of control. It doesn't make you any of that. Fat isn't even... Fat is an adjective. Don't even get me started with that word, but I know these are the things that we tell ourselves. So please remember it is so very difficult actually, to gain a ton of fat because you overate at one meal on Thanksgiving. Alyssa Scolari [30:05]: Which leads me to my next point that I want to bring up, which is like exercising. I used to wake up early every Thanksgiving and go workout because I thought I needed to burn all the calories I was going to be eating. Oh dear Lord, I was so wrong. Speaking of calories, it is like nearly impossible to use exercise to burn off a meal. You would have to do so much exercise. Exercise doesn't necessarily control your weight either. And I know there are a lot of people who might come at me with this one, but I have spoken to enough dieticians, enough registered dieticians, enough intuitive eating experts to know at this point that exercise truly does not affect your weight all that much. And you really can't burn off your Thanksgiving meal or your Christmas meal. It doesn't work like that. Of course, diet culture is going to lead you to believe that you need to get to the gym five days a week, at least to be able to burn off all the turkey and the stuffing and whatever, but it doesn't work like that at all. Alyssa Scolari [31:32]: So please remember that if you want to exercise, great. If you want to go take a walk after your meal, before your meal just to get some mindfulness in, just to be able to connect with your body and see where you're at, if you want to do some yoga, phenomenal have at it. But please do not do so with the intention of burning off the food that you plan to eat or the food that you have eaten because it just doesn't work like that. Alyssa Scolari [32:14]: That I believe are all of the tips that I have to survive a holiday meal. I want you to remember that it is just one holiday, that's it. It's just one meal. And yes, there is the season where we are really enjoying cookies, but here's the thing. You can have cookies all year round. What causes so much binge eating is this concept of, "Oh, well I only get it this one time. I'm going to have to go hard at this meal. I am ready." People love to say, "Oh, I brought my elastic pants." Or the ever condescending and insulting, "Oh, I brought my fat pants today." Ugh, I hate it. I apologize ahead of time if I sound pretty cynical, I don't mean to disparage your thought process. If you do this way, that's not my intention. So I do apologize if I'm coming off a little bit cynical. I just get so frustrated at how bad we are made to feel about our bodies simply from enjoying some good food. Alyssa Scolari [33:34]: So you are not going to be needing fat pants or elastic pants because of a meal. And those types of foods that you're having at the holiday, you can have any time of the year. In fact, I encourage you to, because as I was saying earlier, it's when we restrict ourselves and tell us that we can only have stuffing on Thanksgiving one time a year, that we tend to find ourselves binging on it. For me, as I started to allow myself to have pumpkin pie and stuffing and cheesecake and what have you during non-holiday days, it started to become more normalized in my life. So then when I go to Thanksgiving, I'm not in this like my eyes are bigger than my stomach mode, where I'm just inhaling everything that I can, because I'm not going to get it again for another year. I know that if I wake up the next day and decide that I want cheesecake, I can have that cheesecake. Alyssa Scolari [34:42]: I want you to try to adapt the same kind of mentality here. It takes a long time. So please have compassion. Please be patient with yourself. Please just take it one minute at a time and please know that if you are triggered and if you have a moment of relapse, it is okay. You are still loved. You are not alone. We are all with you and I am holding you in the light. Have a lovely holiday and holidays to come. Take great care, and we will be back next week with another episode. Alyssa Scolari [35:20]: Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram we are @lightaftertrauma, and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

Daylight savings time and the decreasing temperatures have some of us feeling blue, but it doesn't have to be this way! If the lack of sunlight and cold weather have you feeling down, tune in for some tips on how to thrive this winter.  Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Support the Podcast   Transcript: Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey, everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. This is episode 69, I believe. Wow. It is wild that I have almost 70 episodes out, but I love it. I am loving it. Real quick, I just wanted to ask everybody to bear with me. I've been listening back to some of the more recent episodes, especially the solo ones, and the sound is a little bit echoey. And I was aware of it when I first moved into the new home and got a new office. This office is different because it has hardwood floors. So I've had to do a lot to try to make the space something that would be very sound absorbent. I am pretty particular about sound quality. So I am aware of it. None of you have said anything because you are all wonderful and amazing human beings, but I notice it and I just wanted to let you know that I'm aware of it. Alyssa Scolari [01:25]: I honestly thought that getting blinds in here would really help, but then I noticed in the episode that I recorded last week, it still sounded a little bit echoey. So I am doing everything I can on my end. I even have this sort of like foam sound absorbent, like casing, that's going around my microphone. So I'm trying to speak directly into that. But I just think it's going to be a little bit of time before I can buy some more things to fill up this space. We moved a couple months ago, so I do have a rug and all those good things, but I am doing my best. So bear with me for the time being, if this is a little bit echoey. Alyssa Scolari [02:15]: Okay, I just want to move right into then saying thank you to those of you who reached out to me on Instagram over the last couple of weeks, it's been really exciting. I feel like I have so many friends in all different parts of the world. And I love hearing from you and meeting you... Well, e-meeting you, I should say. So thank you. It's been really exciting. And if you have not done so already, please feel free to go give us a follow on Instagram. My handle is Light After Trauma. It's just the name of this podcast. We are putting out some good content and feel free to shoot me a DM and say hi. It's been really fun getting to meet people. Alyssa Scolari [03:00]: On that note... Oh no, I'm lying. There's one more thing that I wanted to say. And that was, if you haven't done so already, please go leave us a review wherever you like to listen. It would mean so much. It is really helpful in terms of being able to get this content out to more people. The more reviews and ratings that the podcast gets, the more people that it reaches. Basically the more press it gets essentially to put it pointblank. It's really about the ratings and the reviews, and it's really important to me to be able to get this content out to as many people as possible because the mental health crisis is real right now. It is probably the worst that I've ever seen it to date. The pandemic has so much to do with it and there are just simply not enough therapists to meet the needs of everybody who is searching for help and support and comfort. And it is only continuing to get worse, unfortunately. Alyssa Scolari [04:15]: So I just want to make sure that as many people out there are aware that there is some free content. If they're not able to get into a therapist, if it's scheduling purposes, if it's that they can't find a good therapist, if it's financial reasons, I want this content to be available for people. So I appreciate this. Thank you in advance for all of the support, as always. Alyssa Scolari [04:45]: And speaking of mental health and the need being in increasing demand for services, we are talking today about seasonal depression or the blues or whatever you want to call it. Some people have an issue with calling it depression and I think that's more because of the stigma surrounding depression, but I mean... I don't know. Some people call it the blues, the winter blues, whatever it may be. I call it seasonal depression. It is real. It is a very real thing and I actually didn't think that I struggled with this, but over the last few years, I've really started to struggle. And now that daylight savings time has happened, it is getting dark super early and it is cold. Depending on where you're at... Allison, if you're over there in San Diego, it might still be sunny and warm, and this might not pertain to you, but it is still getting dark a little bit earlier. Alyssa Scolari [05:54]: So whether it's the darkness that is a little bit depressing for you or whether it is the cold weather that is depressing for you, this is going to be a good episode because I am talking about tips to combat seasonal depression. I think that these tips are really helpful, not just for now, because right now we're in this place where we have the excitement of the holidays upon us, but after January 1st, really, I feel like those months from like January to March before the warmer weather gets here are really a struggle for people. So these tips are helpful, I think, right now as... basically up until I think it's December 21st, that it's just going to keep getting darker earlier and earlier. So it's helpful for right now, but it's also helpful for after the holidays, when we're sort of just waiting for the winter weather to roll around. There really aren't any holidays. There's not much going on. Alyssa Scolari [07:03]: I'm going to be talking about some of the things that really help me. So I'm going to be talking about a few different products that I use. None of these are advertisements. I am simply letting you know what products I enjoy using. Alyssa Scolari [07:20]: The first thing that I think can really help you is using a vitamin D supplement. And again, disclaimer, here, please, please speak to your doctor or your healthcare professional. This is not medical advice. I am not a doctor. So this is simply a suggestion that you might want to consider bringing up with your healthcare professional, with your doctor, your general practitioner, whoever. But vitamin D comes from the sun and that is something that in the wintertime, we tend to lack. I'm even deficient in vitamin D in the summer time, because I don't go outside as much because I am so prone to getting burned. Even with 100 SPF on, I get burned. So I'm vitamin D deficient all year round and I notice a huge difference. Alyssa Scolari [08:16]: Vitamin D comes in, I think, many different things. I think it comes in like gel capsules and then I take it in a liquid form. So I just have like two drops on my tongue every day and it is really, really helpful for me. So during this time of year, when we are getting less sunshine, it is important to make sure that we are not deficient in anything. And that doesn't just go for vitamin D. That goes for honestly, all of the supplements. I know that for me in the wintertime, for whatever reason, it's a pattern for me. I tend to be deficient in B12. And B12 when you're deficient in it can cause lots of anxiety, lots of depression, fatigue, et cetera. Alyssa Scolari [09:05]: So it's a good idea to talk to your doctor, and it is an even better idea to try to get some blood work as well, just to see where you're allow levels are at. That way you know if it's something that you need because having those supplements, especially vitamin D, can help get you through the darker colder months. And again, please talk to your doctor or your primary care physician before doing anything that is not medical advice, but just something you should talk to your doctor about. Alyssa Scolari [09:42]: The next thing that I have found to be really helpful is avoiding triggering TV shows. I know that the nighttime is when people love to put on the TV. I love to put on the TV too. I am no stranger to television. I love TV, but there are certain shows that I have found that if I start watching at night, especially during the winter and like the fall months when it's dark by four o'clock, I get really depressed. That includes like My True Crime shows. I was watching... What was I watching? Ugh. I was watching Burn Notice. If you have not watched Burn Notice and you like action-packed, funny... It's all fictional, but it has Jeffrey Donovan in it and Sharon Gless and Gabrielle Anwar, Bruce Campbell, some of the most amazing... Jeffrey Donovan is the most amazing actor I have seen. I have no idea why he is not Hollywood's biggest, most famous celebrity, but I digress. Alyssa Scolari [10:57]: Anyway, Burn Notice is one of my favorite shows of all time, but there is violence and it can get a little bit emotional at times. So I cannot watch Burn Notice. In fact, I actually had to... The show is seven seasons and I had to stop watching it in the middle of season seven because I noticed that I was getting like... It was depressing me. I was really getting in my head about the show and that's a real thing that happens to so many of us. I know I'm not the only one. So be very intentional about the shows that you watch this time of year. Alyssa Scolari [11:38]: I personally have been loving, don't laugh at me, loving The Muppets. If you have Disney+, there is a entire section dedicated to The Muppets and there's actually like a comedy. I think it's like a spinoff of The Office. Again, don't judge me for this, but I have never seen The Office. I've seen like bits and pieces. I am more of a Parks and Rec kind of girl, but The Muppets I think is like a spinoff of The Office. Unfortunately, it was canceled after one season, but you need to go and watch that season. It is hysterical and Pepe the King Prawn as the... Oh, he's my favorite Muppet of all time, please don't get me started. But that is something for me that is hysterical. It is not triggering. And The Muppets have like, I think they have a bunch of different movies on there too. So we saw a video or a movie with... Well, I think it was Muppets Most Wanted. It is just hysterical and you need to go watch it if you haven't. Alyssa Scolari [12:58]: What I'm trying to say here is I want you to watch shows that are more like that. Doesn't necessarily need to be The Muppets. You can put on a Disney movie. You can put on really any show. You can put on Friends, you can put on... I mean, really into the older stuff, like some 90 shows I've been watching lately or some like early 2000 shows, but be very, very intentional about not watching something that's going to be super triggering in any way, shape or form. Enough about TV, because honestly I could talk about TV shows all day. Alyssa Scolari [13:39]: Another tip that I have found really helpful is the use of candles and diffusers. I have both. So I have a diffuser that I really love and they're not super expensive. I bought mine on Amazon, I think. And mine has like... It lights up. It turns to all different colors. And I really like putting not so much like a lavender in there. I like the lavender when it's nighttime, because lavender, I think is supposed to help with relaxation. But when it's like four, five o'clock and it's pitch black outside, and I know I have a few more clients or a few more hours of work, or I need to cook dinner, I will pop on maybe like a citrusy scent of some sort. And that will really reenergize me and make me feel a lot better. Alyssa Scolari [14:36]: I of course, love candles. I was on the hunt for candles that were a little bit cleaner, that didn't have so many paraffins in them, because I was getting a ton of headaches from the candles that I... This particular brand, I'm not going to out them, but I was using this particular brand of candles. They're a very popular company and I just found that I was getting headaches all the time. So I had to stop using them for a while, but I discovered this one company... What is it called? I think it's called 1803. They're on Instagram. You can go look them up and they have a website. I actually bought a couple candles that they had in a local place near me, but their candles are amazing. They smell so great that... I was actually burning one last night and when I woke up this morning... I blew it out before I went to bed. When I woke up this morning, my house still smelled like that candle. I think the name of the candle is Cookies for St. Nick. And yes, I've already broken out the Christmas candles. I mean, I have. I absolutely. Alyssa Scolari [15:53]: So candles, really important, but try to get ones that have some cleaner ingredients. I think that the 1803 company, their candles can be in my opinion, a bit on the pricier side, but nothing that you... I don't think you would pay anything more or less for a candle that you would get really anywhere else. The only other place I've seen candles that are cheaper, that have clean ingredients are HomeGoods. They're kind of hard to find, but if you go search at HomeGoods, you can find a great candle for like 12 bucks. So if you're concerned about finances, go home take at HomeGoods. HomeGoods has some really good candles. And of course you can always grab a diffuser, essential oils, they last forever and they smell amazing. Alyssa Scolari [16:43]: Now, this next tip is one of my favorites because this is truly what gets me through the darker and colder days. And that is the use of lighting. I touched on this a little bit with the candles, but lighting is so important. Like when it gets dark at four o'clock, the melatonin starts to kick in in our brain. And the melatonin is sending that signal. Melatonin is associated with sleep. So when it's dark out by four or five o'clock, we're ready for bed at four or five o'clock because that melatonin is there. Now serotonin is associated with wakefulness. So we want to increase those levels of serotonin once it starts to get dark out and ways that you can do that are with lighting. That's one of the reasons why they say, don't look at your phone right before you go to bed at night, because the light from your phone can actually increase the serotonin levels and decrease the melatonin levels, causing you to stay awake for longer. So this is very, very important. Alyssa Scolari [17:58]: One of the things that I love is decorating. And yes, I know there's this big, huge debate about when people should decorate for Christmas. I feel like it's been a forever debate. I feel like every year, the celebration of Christmas gets earlier and earlier, and at this point it's like people are celebrating in August. Okay, I get it for me. When it's daylight savings time, I'm ready to decorate for Christmas. And that has nothing to do with rushing Thanksgiving or with not really paying attention to Thanksgiving. That's not it at all. The Christmas decorations, all of the lights truly help me to feel better. They give me the serotonin that I need to continue to get through. My house feels so much sadder when I look around and it's 5:00 PM and I've still got three more hours worth of work to do and all I have is a basic light from the ceiling fan. It saddens me. It truly does. Alyssa Scolari [19:13]: But when my house is decorated to the nines, and I'm telling you, do not be ashamed of decorating your house early. When my house is decorated, I feel so much better. I feel cozier, happier. So do not be ashamed. Do not let people tell you that you can't decorate before Thanksgiving. Light your house up like a goddamn Christmas tree. I'm telling you, my house is fucking lit. It is a goddamn Christmas tree in here and I am not sorry about it because it keeps me from feeling super depressed. Alyssa Scolari [19:47]: There are some other sources of lighting that I've also found really. So those Himalayan salt lamps, I'm pretty sure you could grab one on Amazon. I don't believe they're overly expensive. I think it kind of depends on what you get, but I don't believe that they're overly pricey. So they have amazing benefits. Himalayan salt lamps are meant to cleanse and deodorize and purify the air. And they're actually also really good for allergies and asthma. They can help with blood flow. They can help with your energy levels. They can help with concentration and really just enhance your overall mood. Those things are the bomb. Highly recommend. Alyssa Scolari [20:35]: Other things you can do with lighting. I actually just bought some curtain lights. They were like 10 bucks at Target, but I'm going to hang them in my office here because as I'm recording this, it is 4:30 and it's already pretty much getting dark out. So I'm going to actually hang these curtain lights in my office. They just look very dreamy and very peaceful to me and very cozy and it helps me. I know it can help you too, because light is so, so important for our mental health. That's my favorite. That's lighting. There are so many different things you can do with lighting. Please have fun with it. It is the best and do not be afraid to decorate your whole house for the holidays anytime you want. If you want to leave your Christmas tree up all year, leave your Christmas tree up all year. Do what makes you happy. Alyssa Scolari [21:35]: Next is, I've also found that it's really helpful to change up my exercise routine, and it might be helpful for you to do the same. What I mean by changing up your exercise routine, I mean changing up the time that you do it. If you're somebody who typically exercises in the morning, maybe try to exercise at night. If you are exercising at night, then you are releasing endorphins, which is going to help keep that seasonal depression away, pretty plain and simple. Again, that is easier said than done, of course, but even if you work out two days a week, if you can take one of those workouts and move it to the evening, that will help so, so much. That's just the thought and that's something that I have found to be really helpful. Alyssa Scolari [22:25]: Now, the next thing is, and this is a hard one, taking breaks from social media in particular at night. Again, the phone with the lighting, it's not necessarily the right kind of lighting that we want when it gets dark out. What happens is it is dark by 5:00, you are sitting on the couch, just got done a long day at work and you're scrolling through a TikTok or Instagram or Facebook or Twitter. And you're seeing everyone else's posts and all of their highlight reels and you're in the comparison game. So it's dark, it's cold, it's gloomy. And here you are on social media, watching other people have the time of their lives, or at least that's what they're portraying on social media. That's not really going to boost your move. That's going to instead make your brain go, "Oh, well look at them. Wherever they are in the world, they still have light. And they did this today and they did that today. And here I am sitting on my couch doing nothing." It is so depressing. Alyssa Scolari [23:48]: I have really come a long way in terms of getting my ass off of social media at night, because it makes me so sad. Those same content creators that I love during the day make me sad night because I'm sort of just hanging out and vibing and it's dark, but they're just maybe across the world where it's sunny and they're doing this and doing that. And there are people who are still at the beach and I'm just like, "Oh, well, isn't my life sad." And again, I know I'm not the only one who feels this way because a lot of my clients report this as well. So try to be very intentional about your social media usage at night. I know it's difficult because social media is such a habit for us, including myself, but try doing other things like things that are more hands-on so that you don't find yourself just like two hours into scrolling TikTok. Alyssa Scolari [24:53]: Again, things that help for me are I really enjoy puzzling. I am loving puzzles and I get puzzles that are super vibrant in color. I do all of the Thomas Kinkade Disney Puzzles. They're like the 1,000-piece ones, and then what I do is I actually save the puzzle. I'll put an adhesive backing on it and then I'll frame it. It's just something that's really fun for me to do, but I also enjoy... You can paint if you enjoy painting. I love the paint by numbers. If you Google paint by numbers, there's websites that come up and there are adult paint by numbers kits. I love them because I'm not very creative. And when it comes to painting, I really like a structure of being able to color in the lines and it's just fun. It's just a lot of fun to do. And I'm not really in my head when I'm doing it. I'm sort of I'm concentrating and it just helps keep me off social media and gives me something productive and I think exciting to do. Alyssa Scolari [26:01]: So feel free to look up any of those things, puzzles, painting, knitting. Honestly, I had a knitting phase. I'm not that good at it. But I had a knitting phase and it really did help me. Alyssa Scolari [26:18]: The last few things are being intentional about who you talk to after sunset. So what I mean by this is, especially if you are a trauma survivor who has people in your life that might be triggering to you, people that you have contact with, but the relationship is a little strained for whatever reason. It might not be the best idea to pick up the phone when they call after dark. And that's likely, or that's because you can be triggered by them and we don't want to get triggered. Being dark, so early and cold is already... It's hard enough. So you do not want to then have to deal with possibly being triggered on top of it. So be mindful about who you're talking to. If you know that you are going to be getting a call from somebody, give them a call during the day if you can when it's still light out. That way by the time the evening comes, you have completely enveloped yourself in absolute safety. Alyssa Scolari [27:26]: And then another thing that I have found really helpful are plants. I've talked about plants on my social media and I don't know if I've talked about plants on the podcast, but I am a huge plant lover and I have a lot of indoor plants, I guess a lot. How many do I have? Oh, I think I actually have like 11. Yeah, no, that's a lot. All right, I'm officially a plant lover and a plant mom to 11 beautiful plants. And I have these grow lights. Again, you can get them on Amazon. They're called grow lights and you can clip them to the side of a desk or the side of a table, or you can get ones that stand up. I love having them because I have something that I have to take care of. Alyssa Scolari [28:17]: So even on those nights when I'm feeling really depressed and really lonely, I know that I have to keep myself safe because I've got to keep my plants safe and healthy and I've got to nurture them. I've got to make sure that they are getting water and food and that I am dusting their leaves. Yes, that is a thing my fellow plant lovers will know. And it might sound and silly, but I really care about my plants because I feel like my plants have greatly increased my... Well, they haven't. I feel like my plants have actually greatly reduced my levels of depression and they also really help to detoxify the air around me. They're a great visual for me and I care about them and I get so excited when I see them doing really well. I actually was gifted and orchid from a friend about a month ago. And I woke up today and saw like a little root that was starting to grow and I got so excited. So it's the little things. It's so helpful for me. Alyssa Scolari [29:31]: And it doesn't have to be a plant. It could be really any animal. It also could be a fish. If you are looking for an animal that is pretty low commitment and you're not really a plant person, you don't really want a dog, you don't really want a cat and you need something that's pretty low commitment, low maintenance, go buy a betta fish. When you walk into a PetSmart or a Petco, how many of those betta fish are sitting in those little tiny, four-ounce containers with nowhere to swim? They look so sad. Go get yourself a betta fish. They're colorful. They're fun. They're easy to take care of. They're not going to take up a whole ton of your time and it is something for you to nurture and love. And it's something for you to come home to. That is really helpful. Alyssa Scolari [30:22]: So then the last two things are drink tea if you are not a tea drinker. The warmth is really, really helpful and also there's tons of wonderful herbal tea out there that can really do a lot for your mood. So if you're not a tea drinker, I'm sure you can find a tea out there for you. If you are a tea drinker, stock up on some tea this winter, give yourself some options. Alyssa Scolari [30:50]: And then lastly, don't forget to stay hydrated. Sometimes depression and fatigue and exhaustion can be dehydration. Again, I'm not saying depression is directly linked to dehydration, but sometimes we can feel really sad and just fatigued and off and it might actually be dehydration. When it gets colder, we don't want to drink as much because well it's cold and we don't feel as thirsty, but we actually need water more than never in the cold weather because it dries us out. And especially the heat, having the heat on in your home, all that heat dries you out as well. So it is so important to stay hydrated, whether that's through tea, whether that's water. Whatever it is you may like, make sure that you are staying hydrated. Alyssa Scolari [31:42]: All of these things have helped me so much and will get me through this season of cold and darkness. Especially after the holidays, I struggle the most. I would say January, February, March are the hardest months for me. Actually, part of the reason why I picked a wedding date in March is because March is sort of just like that cold month where we're all ready for the spring. And I was like, "Oh, I need something to celebrate this month." That's part of why we picked March for our wedding date, but that's neither here nor there. Alyssa Scolari [32:20]: I hope that these tips help you as... I cannot speak today. I hope that these tips helped you as much as they have helped me. And if you have any other thoughts or questions or comments, you can feel free to shoot me an email at lightaftertrauma@gmail.com. I am wishing you all a wonderful rest of your week, take care, and I am holding you all in the light. Alyssa Scolari [32:51]: Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

Whether you've gone no-contact with your family or are feeling anxious about being around family during the holidays, this week's episode can help you figure out the best way to keep the joy alive during this holiday season. Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com Support the Podcast   Transcript: Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hello, my friends. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma Podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari, and I am really happy to be here again for another episode, another Tuesday, or whatever day you're listening. It is Sunday as I am recording this. I just want to thank everyone for all of your well wishes. I've touched on it on some episodes in the podcast, but I've mostly talked about it on our Instagram, which if you're not following, by the way, it's Light After Trauma, that is the handle. Alyssa Scolari [01:01]: Head on over and check us out. We post some really great content, but I've been sharing a lot about my battle as I go through this process of being diagnosed with endometriosis, which has really been unpleasant and has consisted of severe, severe pain and lots of fatigue. As I'm going through this process, I've been keeping everyone updated on my Instagram, and I just wanted to say thank you so much for the well wishes. I had a good weekend. I had a pretty pain free weekend. Alyssa Scolari [01:41]: We will see what the week ahead brings, but it was nice. Today, I was actually able to go outside and do some gardening, which I'm like really impressed by because I've just been so tired and I just have not felt well at all lately. So fingers crossed. I have a doctor's appointment in December where I will find out more information. We will see from there what we are going to do. But I digress. For those of you who don't know much about endometriosis, I will be doing a podcast episode about it at some point. Alyssa Scolari [02:18]: Right now I've been doing a lot of solo episodes because, A, I really like solo episodes. I feel like I get to connect with everyone better. And B, I have had to push off a lot of my interviews because I've been in so much pain. Interviews that I have scheduled with other people, I have just had to cancel so many of them. I will be interviewing some more people in the near future. I am really looking forward to it, but I also really like doing these solo episodes. Alyssa Scolari [02:49]: And today, we are talking about something that is... It hits really close to home for me, and I know it will for a lot of people. With the holidays approaching, it can be so tough to navigate family issues because everybody's supposed to or is expected to go home for the holidays, right? What is that like famous holiday saying, all hearts come home for the holidays, something like that. But regardless, I mean, the expectation is that the holidays are really upon us. Alyssa Scolari [03:30]: Halloween recently passed and now we are in full Thanksgiving mode or Christmas mode or whatever you choose to celebrate. That's sort of the mode that we are in right now. This episode applies not just for these specific holidays, but also for holidays throughout the year in general. It's been really hard for me, and I know I'm not alone in this. Alyssa Scolari [03:58]: But since things opened back up post-pandemic, like really this summer, I noticed it, everybody who had put their weddings on holds, I just had so many showers and weddings, wedding showers, baby showers, birthday parties. So much that if I had said yes to absolutely everything, and so much of it was family stuff, if I had said yes to everything, I could have easily had every single day of every single weekend in my entire summer booked. Alyssa Scolari [04:44]: I'm sure so many of you are seeing this sort of like rise in events now that it's not as dangerous to go out in public anymore. That was really hard for me. I feel like this episode applies for are really just all times of the year when it comes to navigating family and family events. For many trauma survivors, part of what makes something traumatic can be... You might hear that little... If you hear a little pitter pattern in the background or like a little bit of banging, it's just one of my dogs. Alyssa Scolari [05:27]: Don't worry about it. He just wanted to say hi. Bentley wanted to say hi to everybody. But anyway, part of what makes trauma traumatic, part of what causes the of trauma is the lack of support that we have when we are traumatized. And a lot of that lack of support can be found in family members, if the family members aren't the ones doing the trauma or inflicting the trauma in the first place. Alyssa Scolari [06:01]: For so many trauma survivors, right, either our family members are our abusers or our family members simply turned the other cheek and did nothing to support us or believe us when we were being traumatized. As we get older, we start to feel like some type of maybe resentment or whatever the emotion may be, and we start to develop conflict with family members. And it becomes really, really tough especially the holidays. During another part of the year, perhaps it might be a little bit easier because you're getting space. Alyssa Scolari [06:49]: But again, going back to this expectation that we're all supposed to be together for the holidays, it puts a lot of pressure on trauma survivors. This holiday season for me is really monumental in my recovery because it's the first holiday season where I'm spending it with who I want to spend it with and not with who I feel like I have to spend it with. Oftentimes, these holidays can be so stressful because of who we feel like we have to see or who we feel like we have to buy gifts for when we really don't want to. Alyssa Scolari [07:38]: And if you are out there and if you are somebody who feels like you have to buy a gift for somebody who you don't want to buy a gift for, or if you can't afford to buy gifts, or if you feel like you have to show up to this family event knowing that these people harmed you, or that somebody there is triggering you, or that one of your abusers is there, I want to encourage you, if you feel like it's the right time for you, I want to encourage you to start figuring out how you can set some boundaries in order to protect yourself. Alyssa Scolari [08:20]: There's a couple different ways you can go about navigating family during the holidays when there's lots of parties, lots of gatherings, lots of expectations around gift giving. One thing I recommend when it comes to gift giving is thinking ahead of time about who you would like to buy gifts for. For me, there was always this big expectation that everybody in our family got a gift. So at one point, I was buying gifts for like 10, 11 different people in my family for Christmas. Alyssa Scolari [08:56]: And honestly, that adds up. Hundreds, if not nearly a thousand dollars of gift giving, and then I haven't bought anything that... And that also includes like pets for big pet people. Pet toys are expensive too. I think one Christmas like a couple years ago, I just kind of said to my mom, I was like, "Can we just not do gifts? Or do a Pollyanna or something like that?" My mom was not a fan of the idea before, during, or after, because my mom really liked the idea having like all the Christmas presents around the tree and everybody's sitting around opening up gifts. Alyssa Scolari [09:40]: But financially, it is just so taxing. I also think it just adds to this mindset that the holiday is simply about what you can buy and what you can afford to buy. I would strongly recommend if you're struggling with like, "Oh, how am I going to get gifts for people that I don't really even want to get gifts for," I think you should sit down and make a list. Who do you actually want to buy gifts for? And it might be uncomfortable to not buy somebody a gift when you feel obligated to. Alyssa Scolari [10:20]: The first year that I didn't buy my brother a gift... I mean, granted, I'm almost 30 and he's nine years older than me. It was time for us to stop buying each other gifts. But I knew that I had to be the one to pull the trigger because I knew that my brother wasn't really going to say anything. I just felt like this was not a stressor that I needed. That first holiday was really uncomfortable, but I want you all to remember this, you do not owe anybody any explanations. Alyssa Scolari [10:59]: You truly don't. And if you want to give an explanation, all you have to do is say, "Hey, I am respectfully requesting that we not do gifts this year." And that in itself is a boundary that you are setting. And again, there could be several different reasons for why you're setting this boundary. It could simply be you are in a financial bind, or it could be that you don't feel like you want to exchange presents with this person because this person may trigger you. Alyssa Scolari [11:31]: You may not like this person, and it's just not necessary. You do not need to do things for the holidays to save face. And a lot of times for trauma survivors in particular, we are such people pleasers that we end up doing a lot to save face. So it's really important that we don't say face. I think that I really like the technique of reaching out to that person and just saying like, "I'm respectfully asking that we don't do gifts this year," because then that eliminates any possibility for uncertainty, for expectation. Alyssa Scolari [12:12]: It's sort of like I told you we're not going to do this, so I'm not going to get you a gift. You're not going to get me a gift. I will see you when I see you at the holidays. Maybe. Maybe not. We'll talk. And that will be that. I do like that idea of communicating beforehand, and I strong really recommend it, especially when it comes to the gifts, because it can just be so stressful. And then you end up just spending all of your money on people who trigger you and it can really set you back. Alyssa Scolari [12:49]: I mean, it does more harm because it brings you right back to... If you are a child abuse survivor, it can bring you right back to your childhood where you are having to please your abuser or do things for your abuser. That in itself can be very triggering. I hope that that piece helps with the gifts. I know it might kind of seem like how our trauma and gift giving are related, but they absolutely are, especially when so many of us have been trained to be people pleasers and to give and give and give, even though we might not be able to give, right? Alyssa Scolari [13:33]: We have been trained to give even at our own expense. That is why this piece is really important. I strongly encourage you to really reflect on who is getting gifts, can I do gifts this year, and remember that you don't owe anyone anything. I know this is all easier said than done. I promise you, because I have been there. Been there. I have done that. I am going through that as we speak, not necessarily with the gifts, but more so navigating who I want to spend time with and what I want the holidays to look like. Alyssa Scolari [14:25]: Let's shift gears for a minute into that area. Now, if you are somebody who has gone no contact with your family and you don't speak to them at all, you don't necessarily have the issue of, am I going to see my family on the holidays? The issue you might be struggling with is, am I going to be alone? Who will I spend the days with? How am I going to deal with any potential gifts that may come in the mail from family members I've tried to go no contact with? Alyssa Scolari [15:11]: How am I going to deal with any text messages or calls from family members? Because a lot of times when we go no contact with family, family might not necessarily respect that, especially on a holiday. You might not hear from your family member in a year, but when you wake up on Christmas morning, you might have a text from a family member that you don't want to speak to. But here you are with a text in your phone on Christmas morning because that family member's like, "Oh, it's the holidays and the holidays don't count." Alyssa Scolari [15:49]: If you are somebody who's gone no contact with your family, I encourage you to take this time and to think about all the ways in which you can protect yourself when the holidays arrive. For example, what do you need to do on your phone? Are there certain people you need to block, put on do not disturb? You don't necessarily have to block if you don't want other people to know that they're blocked, but you can put them on do not disturb. You can decide that you're not going to look at your phone for the day. Alyssa Scolari [16:30]: You can tell people ahead of time that you won't be taking any calls that day, or you won't be responding to any messages that day, because I know how overwhelming it can be to have no contact with your family for a year, but then on a holiday... It's kind of like with birthdays, right? I have certain family members who I have gone no contact with and I will not be seeing for the holidays. And more than likely, I will not be seeing them ever again. Alyssa Scolari [17:07]: But I'm dreading... Like my birthday is coming up on January 6th. Actually I had to think for a minute about when my birthday was. That's pretty bad. My birthday is coming up and these people, I haven't heard from them in a year, honestly. I know that I'll get a text on my birthday, and I don't want a text. I don't want to hear from them, so I'm already thinking of ways that I can prepare myself by I'm considering perhaps blocking the phone number. Alyssa Scolari [17:42]: I'm considering just putting my phone down for the entire day of my birthday and just spending the day with people I want to spend it with. I might put these people on do not disturb. I'm not sure, but these are some options that I'm juggling, and I'm kind of going through in my head to decide what is going to be right for me. The same can go for you when it comes to your birthday and when it comes to the holidays. Start planning these things ahead of time, so that the day of you feel more prepared. Alyssa Scolari [18:24]: If you're worried you're going to get packages from people, then I actually strongly recommend that you go with a friend to go pick up your mail. Or if a package comes, I suggest that you have a trusted friend, a friend, a partner, whoever is safe in your life, have them help you. Now is the time to lean on other people, but people who are safe. People who can understand you. Alyssa Scolari [19:00]: If you're worried about packages, don't do this alone, because I know how triggering it can be to, again, not hear from somebody, be no contact, and then all of a sudden it's like, "Oh, here's a package at my door." It ruins your entire day. It's so upsetting. Now, if you're somebody who has not gone no contact with your family and you plan on spending the holidays with your family, again, there are some things that you can do to prepare. Alyssa Scolari [19:35]: I think it's really important that you bring people into your holiday season who are safe, whatever that may look like. If you spend Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, New Year's Eve, New Year's Day with your family, consider breaking it up a little bit. Who do you want to spend the holidays with this year? Do you have certain friends that are more like family members that you want to spend the holiday with? Talk to them. See what their plans are and break it up. Alyssa Scolari [20:17]: If you know you have to spend Christmas day with your family and you know it's going to be triggering, have a plan in place where maybe Christmas Eve is not with your family, but is with your friends. I really, really love the saying family by choice, because that's what I think friends are. And I am so blessed to have so many members of... Well, family members, but they're family by choice. I have so many beautiful people in my life. Alyssa Scolari [20:55]: And this year for the first time I am spending one of the holidays with our family by choice and not our family. David and I both decided that together. We will see our families. We're doing a little bit of everything, right? We are going to see our families. We're going to see both sides of our families, because both sides of our families have family members that we want to see. I do want to see my mom on Christmas. I do want to see my mom on whatever holiday I see her. Alyssa Scolari [21:33]: I do want to see her, but there are other people that I have zero desire to see. People who have not reached out, have not said a word to me. I moved to a new state several months ago. I've been going through so much and I have not heard a peep from these people. And I have zero desire to spend it with them. And for a million other reasons, I have zero desire. It's not just because of that. But as a result, we made the decision that we're going to do what we want to do for the holidays. Alyssa Scolari [22:16]: We're not going to do what we feel obligated to do, because what will happen is exactly what happened last year, which is we ended up going to a place where we didn't want to go and we left at the end of the night. And before I even made it to the car, I was sobbing hysterically because of how triggered and upset I was. I don't want to do that because this is my holiday too. Just like it's your holiday. Alyssa Scolari [22:52]: Start figuring out who's safe in your life, who you want to spend time with, and make those plans, even if you have to like spend the holidays with your family, and then you start having your own holiday, right? Some people do a... oh, what's it called? Oh, a Friendsgiving. Some people do a Friendsgiving. Do a Friendsgiving. Do something that is going to remind you of the love you have in your life, especially if you're having to do something that reminds you of the abuse you endured. Alyssa Scolari [23:35]: That is so important. Do not subject yourself to a triggering situation without first wrapping yourself up in love and support, right? You would not go bungee jumping without a bungee cord. It's the same thing here. Do not go bungee jumping without a bungee cord. Do not spend time with triggering people unless you are going to wrap yourself in love and safety and support in other ways. I hope that that makes sense, and I hope that that helps. And also please know that you're not alone. Alyssa Scolari [24:14]: Know you are absolutely not alone and know that you do not have to go to something just because it seems like the right thing to do. Again, we have multiple invitations for the holidays this year, and we have not really decided on what all of our holidays are going to look like, but we do know what some of them are going to look like. We've decided that it's most important for us to wrap ourselves in safety and love and kindness and start new traditions. Because you, as the trauma survivor, are also the cycle breaker. Alyssa Scolari [25:00]: If your trauma is in your family, you are the cycle breaker. Break that cycle. And remember that no is a complete sentence. That is one of my favorite quotes of all time. No is a complete sentence. You are allowed to say no to people and not have to tell them why. It doesn't mean you're avoiding people. It doesn't mean it's a forever thing either, right? That's the other important thing to point out, is that just because you're not going to a holiday gathering this year doesn't mean you won't go next year. Alyssa Scolari [25:48]: It just means that this year it's going to be a no for you. And that's okay. Because when it comes to recovery, we can be up. We can be down. We can be good some years. Some years can be really rough. It can be hard to tell. So just know also that just because you don't do something one year doesn't mean you can never do it again. Alyssa Scolari [26:14]: Now, if you are somebody who feels like you can't say no to your family and to their invitations to spend time to together, I again want to say, I can't emphasize this enough, to make sure that you're supported, right? If you are going to a holiday, try not to go alone. Even if you have to physically be alone, try to have friends. And I recommend this to so many of like my adolescence and like the minors that I work with, who don't really have much of a choice on where they go for the holidays. Alyssa Scolari [27:00]: Try to have somebody that you can stay connected to at least on the phone. If you can't have somebody with you in person, have somebody on Instagram, via text message, Snapchat, whatever app. Stay connected. FaceTime them. Go into the bathroom and FaceTime. Take lots of bathroom breaks. I do that all of the time. When I am overwhelmed and overstimulated or triggered, I'll be in the bathroom. Find me in the bathroom. I'll just be like chilling on the toilet just like taking a breather, because I need to decompress. Alyssa Scolari [27:39]: Go FaceTime somebody in the bathroom. Do what you need to do to stay connected to safety. Because during this time of the year, the fact of the matter is that the suicide rates increase significantly. So much of it is because we are, A, sent into a viral over how we're going to afford Christmas gifts because this society has made it seem like all that matters is what we're buying other people. B, we feel lonely. We don't feel as fulfilled as these Hallmark Christmas movies make us feel like we should be, because life is not a Hallmark movie. Alyssa Scolari [28:29]: Life is full of triggers and trauma and trying to navigate difficult relationships and setting boundaries. You're not going to find any of that in a Hallmark movie. You're not going to find any of that in most Christmas movies. If you do find it, it's like, "Well, the problem was so easy," right? Like in these Hallmark movies, oh, you just needed to meet the love of your life and everything is perfect. Ugh, I'm rolling my eyes because I can't. I know this is very controversial, so don't come at me. Alyssa Scolari [29:07]: I know people love their Hallmark movies. I have a problem with them because I think that they send the message that you can only truly be happy and enjoy the holidays if you have found your soulmate and the love of your life. And I think that's crap. I mean, whatever. That's me just being really nitpicky, but I just feel like Hallmark movies are whatever. I digress. I could go on about it, but I won't. I won't. Alyssa Scolari [29:43]: For all of those reasons and many more, suicide rates are significantly increased during the holidays, which is why I am talking about this. It is important. I cannot stress it enough, start planning now if you have issues with family members. And don't be afraid to say no. In fact, if you want to say no to a holiday, you can... One thing that is really helpful for me if I'm going to say no to anybody, because saying no to somebody is still a little bit difficult for me, I will ask my husband to sit with me on the phone. Alyssa Scolari [30:28]: Because if he's next to me, I am more likely to do what I said I was going to do. If you have a hard time saying no to people and have a hard time declining an invitation, have somebody who can help hold you accountable. That's extremely helpful. And then have somebody who also can help manage the guilt that comes after with saying no. Because just because you're setting these boundaries doesn't mean it's going to be easy. It doesn't mean there's not going to be any guilt involved. Alyssa Scolari [31:01]: There's going to be a lot of guilt by nature. As abuse survivors, as people pleasers, we feel guilty when we say no to people. But remember, you are not responsible for somebody else's reaction. All you can do is what's best for you. You are not responsible for the reactions of others. Lean on one another. Lean on the safe people in your life. Make a plan now because the holidays will be here before you know it. I want you to be able to find the magic in your own way, on your own terms. Alyssa Scolari [31:49]: There is so much magic to be found in this time of year, and part of that magic can be found in setting boundaries with the people who trigger us. It is not easy, but it is paving the way to a safer, happier, and healthier life. I hope that this was helpful. I will be right there with it with you. I have a really hard time saying no. It is going to feel really weird for me this year to change things up on the holidays, but I'm doing it for myself, for my family, for my future. Alyssa Scolari [32:32]: I am getting really comfortable with being uncomfortable. And I am leaving no stone unturned this year when it comes to saying what I want and making the most out of it, because last year we were pretty much all stuck at home because of this pandemic. I will be damned if I'm going to miss out on the joy and magic of another holiday season because I am so busy trying to please other people. I love you all take extra good care of yourselves. I am holding you in the light, and I will be back next week. Enjoy. Alyssa Scolari [33:14]: Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma, and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

At some point during the therapy process, we have likely all had the thought “My therapist gets paid to care about me – they're not expressing genuine care or concern.” On this week's episode, Alyssa is tackling that myth and is explaining the many reasons why this thought is untrue. Support the Podcast Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa's guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com   Transcript: Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Light After Trauma Podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari, and I am happy to be here as always. Thank you all so much for your continued support. If you have not done so already, please head over to our Instagram, which the handle is Light After Trauma. It's the name of the podcast. That's it. Pretty simple. Head on over. We have been putting out some really good content and yeah, I've actually really loved getting DMs from you all and getting to chat with some of you all and hear the ways in which the podcast has resonated with you. So thank you for that and head on over and give us a follow if you haven't done so already. Alyssa Scolari [01:10]: I also want to encourage you if you haven't done so already to please go ahead and leave a review for the podcast. Reviews are so important in terms of helping the podcast to grow and to get sponsors and to be able to really just spread the awareness and this free content to more people in greater parts of the world, which is great because it's a way that everybody can have access to some type of mental health education. Alyssa Scolari [01:45]: And then lastly, before we dive into the topic of today's episode, I do want to remind you all of the Survived and Thrived stories segment that I have created. I've only put out two episodes so far. There are many episodes and they are made for all of you, the listeners. So they're really made for those of you who want to write in and share your story. You can send that email over to me at lightaftertrauma@gmail.com. And if you want to find out more, you can go right over to my website at lightafter.com and you can check it out. There's a whole section there for Survive and Thrive stories. But basically if you are looking for a way to share part of your story, you can write it in and I will share it on a podcast episode and then I will give my own feedback as well. So don't forget about that. If you are interested, please head on over to the website or you can just send an email to lightaftertrauma@gmail.com. Alyssa Scolari [02:55]: And with that said, let's launch right into today's topic. So got another solo episode for you today. And we are talking about, this is one of my favorite topics. And I feel like I say that all the time, and I really probably need to stop saying that. But hey, I am clearly very passionate about this field. So today's topic is one that honestly I've struggled with myself and I am a therapist. So it's this age old question of does my therapist really care about me? And does my therapist really care about my problems? And does therapy really even matter because I'm just kind of going there and showing up once a week or once every other week or twice a week? In my case, twice a week. I go to therapy twice a week. It works for me. I love it. And it's a way for me to feel more supported. Alyssa Scolari [03:59]: But it's very tricky because I find that so many of my patients and even my friends and colleagues, and even myself fall into this way of thinking where we're like, oh, well I pay you to care about me as my therapist. So your care and concern isn't genuine because I'm literally paying you to care. This is something that I've also seen popping up on TikTok a lot. So I follow a lot of therapists on TikTok and I look at the comments section and in a lot of the comments section, so many people are like, yeah, no, my therapist doesn't actually care about me, and they're just getting paid. Or they're attacking the therapist who made the TikTok and they're saying, "Well, you don't actually care and it's not unconditional love. And it's not unconditional compassion because if I weren't paying you, then you wouldn't still care about me." Alyssa Scolari [05:12]: And I know I can definitely speak to this issue about therapy from both perspectives, as the client or the patient and as the therapist. I had a therapist once who, and of course this therapist, the relationship did not work out. And I will share everything that happened with this therapist at some point. I just can't at the moment, but stay tuned for that. So this therapist is somebody who I saw for several years, and it was all fine and dandy until I really started getting into like the nitty gritty of my trauma. And I started to have a lot of questions about whether or not this therapist really cared about me. And I would actually say that to her, which is important. If you feel that way about your therapist, it's important that you ask them that. And I also should preface this by saying that this podcast episode is not me speaking on behalf of all therapists because A, that wouldn't be fair. And B, I don't really know what's going on in the minds of other therapists. Alyssa Scolari [06:42]: I only know what's going on in my own heart. And I assume, or I know that there are other good therapists out there because I currently have a very good therapist. And I know that this therapist cares me because she cares about me and not because she's getting paid to care about me. So while I can't speak on behalf of all therapists, I am going to speak on behalf of myself. And I hope that me sharing this experience helps you with your relationship with your therapist, if you are having these types of thoughts and these types of questions. Alyssa Scolari [07:23]: So anyway, back to the therapist that I was seeing before, so I used to ask her all the time, "Well, what do you care? I pay you. I pay you. You don't care. And the minute I walk out this door, you forget. You forget everything. And then you don't really care until I have another check for you." And I laugh about it now because it was ridiculous. I mean, I actually said all these things to her. And my way of thinking, I was just so hurt and my defenses were up so high and she would say to me, "Okay, Alyssa, is that how you feel about your patients?" And I would hate that she would say that to me because the truth is no, that's not how I feel. Alyssa Scolari [08:17]: So, okay, let's break this down a little bit. So do therapists need and want and deserve to be paid? Yes. We went to school for this. We are experts in this subject and we deserve to get paid for our work. What we don't get paid for is to care as much as we do. And again, I'm not speaking for every single therapist. Okay. This is really about my experiences. I do not get paid to care as much as I do. So I look at my husband and I look at the job that he has. He works from 7:00 AM until 5. And he goes to meetings, and he answers emails and this, that, and a third. And I see that at the end of the day, when five o'clock comes around, he closes his computer and he is done. And I see that during the day, while he might be in a meeting, he is able to maybe fold some laundry. He works from home. So he might be folding some laundry while he's in a meeting and he's paying attention to the meeting and he's fully engaged in the meeting. Alyssa Scolari [09:49]: But he is doing something. He is doing another task. And again, not always. My husband is a phenomenal worker, one of the hardest workers that I know, but he does have that option if he wants to or if he can. He also has the option of just really taking a moment for himself and taking a break. And while he's on that break, he's not thinking about what is going on at work. Just like he's not thinking about what's going on at work, when he's done at 5:00 or 5.30 or 6:00 or whatever. Alyssa Scolari [10:32]: I don't do that. I and most therapists work all day, and this is not a complaint by the way, this is not a complaint. I love what I do, but I work all day. I may work about 8 hours, sometimes 10 hours, sometimes 12 hours but I will see clients back to back. And when I'm done, when I get in my car and I drive home, I don't shut it off. I choose not to shut it off. Could I probably shut it off? Yeah, but I don't want to. And I think this is one of the biggest issues that therapists are well, it's something that therapists are shamed for. So I even feel a little bit funny admitting this, because I know that a lot of therapists listen to this podcast, but I don't think I'm alone in this. Alyssa Scolari [11:33]: So I know that when we go to school, we are trained to shut it off. You have to shut it off. You have to find a way to let it go and you get back into your car. And I really feel like that's a crock of shit. And don't get me wrong. That advice is useful to an extent. It's never good to be obsessed about a client's problem or a certain case that you have or an issue, but part of what makes us so good at our jobs is our ability to care for people unconditionally. So, no, I do not shut it off the second that somebody leaves my office. I get into my car and I'm driving home and I'm thinking about interactions. I'm thinking about things that I said, things that that person said, how I felt the session went, if there were things that I could have done better, if there were questions I forgot to ask or things I forgot to touch on, if the people that I saw today are safe. All of these things are going through my head, just in the car ride home. Alyssa Scolari [12:40]: And it's not just in the car ride home. It's the holidays, and it's the weekends, and it's ... Take the holidays for example. My husband is not attending the holidays wondering if his coworkers are going to be okay. When it's the holidays for me, I spend my time in ... I enjoy every second of the holidays, but I spend my time feeling sorrow and feeling sad and feeling concerned for my clients who don't have family to spend the holidays with, or for the children that I see that are stuck in toxic homes that I know the holidays will be miserable for. I think about all of that. I could be vacuuming my house and in my head, I'm thinking about what I can do to help this one client who is really stuck with this particular issue. It's very, very different when you work individually with people trying to help empower them to be their own best advocate, their own problem solver and to reach all of their dreams and goals. Alyssa Scolari [14:08]: Now, it's a little bit difficult to say this because in grad school, what I would be told by one of my professors is, well, that's a sign that you're in too deep. That's a sign that you got too close. That's a sign that you don't have good boundaries. You got too close, you cared too much. And again, I say that is absolute bullshit. I mean, okay, it's 98% bullshit because there is a such thing as getting too close. But the majority of the time, we know the most intimate details on somebody's life. And for grad schools to make it seem as though we can just turn it off really makes us seem like we should be more robotic than we really are. I'm the not collecting my paycheck and then going on my holidays and my vacations and my weekends, and never thinking about the people that I work with. Absolutely not. And I don't think that I'm alone in that. I think that there are a lot of therapists who feel the same way. We carry our clients with us in our hearts, in our heads. We wish them well all the time. Alyssa Scolari [15:43]: I know other therapists are like that because I've heard it firsthand. And I do not think that this is a weakness, even though being in grad school, a lot of professors will try to say that that is a red flag. I just don't think that it is. I think it's part of what makes me and other therapists so good at their jobs. It's so healing when I sit down with my therapist and she says, "I was really thinking about what you said last session." That statement alone. "I was really thinking about what you said," is so healing for me, as I know it is for so many other trauma survivors, because what that means is that my therapist cares, my therapist heard me, my therapist saw me and my therapist thought that what I said was important enough that she carries it in her head and wanted to bring it up again. She remembered. Alyssa Scolari [16:54]: This isn't something where I enter into this alternate universe and my therapist cares about me for 60 minutes. And then the rest of the week, she doesn't know who I am. It's like, oh, we have a relationship. And that's what therapy is. Therapy is not the 60 minutes or 45 minutes a week. It is a relationship that you have with somebody. And when we have a relationship, it does become nearly impossible to just completely shut it off as we are trained to do in school. The therapeutic relationship is what makes therapy so successful. So when you, or when I start to have those thoughts of like, well, what if my therapist just like doesn't care? Or like, my therapist only gets paid to care. If there's no money involved, then my therapist doesn't care. That is so untrue, in so many cases. I won't say all because I have had quite a few therapists who I know barely remembered my name from session to session. Alyssa Scolari [18:09]: There are bad therapists out there just like there are bad people in every profession out there. I mean, there's just bad people in the world in general, but when it comes to therapy, there's so much that we do that you might not be aware of that we don't or you don't pay us for. We seek out supervision, individual supervision, group supervision, we take courses to be able to become better trained in certain areas. We do tons of research. We do tons of reflecting. I reflect both inwards and outwards, about what am I bringing to the table? How am I helping this person? So much of that happens outside of the 60 minutes. And so much of that is stuff that we don't get paid for. Alyssa Scolari [19:12]: My husband, going back to this, he works for 10 hours, I think his work day is, and when he is done, he's done. But when I'm "off the clock," I'm not done. And I'm really good at taking care of myself. And I certainly have moments where I do shut things off, but my ability to continue to reflect on my patients' problems and be able to brainstorm different ways to help them, again, is part of what makes me good at my job. And part of what makes therapy successful. Alyssa Scolari [19:59]: Now, I think there's another piece to this whole does my therapist really care or are they just there collecting a paycheck? And I think that this is very, very common in a lot of trauma survivors, because we are not used to unconditional love and empathy and concern. We're not used to that. We are used to relationships that are very conditional. We are used to love and care that is contingent upon something or someone. We're so new to the world of unconditional relationships, that it makes more sense to us. And in fact, I'm going to take it one step further and say even that it's safer for us to just think that this therapist is just getting paid to care. It's actually a little bit safer because it's familiar. We're so used to having to you give something in order to get love as trauma survivors. That is our norm. Alyssa Scolari [21:15]: So I think that when we find ourselves asking this question with our therapist, I think part of it is related to the trauma. Part of it is related to the abandonment we've had in relationships before. Part of it is related to well, if I just tell myself that my therapist is only in this for money, then that sort of keeps this wall up between my therapist and I. So then my therapist can't fully see me, I can't fully be in this relationship because I already know, or I've already assumed that it's conditional. I've already assumed that. Alyssa Scolari [21:58]: So part of it for sure is a defense mechanism. It's certainly a defense mechanism that I had. And it certainly is something that pops back up for me from time to time when I'm triggered or if things are going too well with my therapist, I start to get that feeling of like, oh no, wait, she's kind of only in this for the money Alyssa. So calm down, don't get too excited that you have a healthy relationship with somebody. And that's just simply not true. I know my therapist cares about me and I know the unconditional love and concern and care that I have for my clients, it's something I can't describe. I feel honored every day to be able to walk this journey next to my clients. And nothing brings me greater joy than watching them succeed and watching them move through these milestones. And I love that when I get excited, they roll their eyes at me because they think that I'm off my rocker, which I totally am, but I don't care. Alyssa Scolari [23:15]: It is a beautiful thing, and I do not take one single relationship that I have with my clients for granted. And I think it's safe to say that if you are in a safe and healthy relationship with your therapist, they very much value you. I value, admire and respect the people that I work with. Yes, I do deserve to get paid for my job, for my expertise, but that does not change the fact that I care. And if my clients were having some sort of financial hardship or struggle, I work with them, I have, and I will continue to do so because it's more than the money for me. And it is more than the money for most therapists. Alyssa Scolari [24:15]: I am so lucky because I have so many beautiful relationships from my job. With that, means that I can't always turn it off in the same way that David can shut his computer down at the end of the day and not give work a second thought until the next day. I can't always do that, but that's okay because what I get out of it is so worth it. There are days when it's hard, for sure. When I unexpectedly have to terminate with clients or when a relationship doesn't work out with a client and they need to be referred out, it is hard for me. That happened recently where I ended up having to terminate with a client who I had been seeing for quite some time and knew very, very well and it was devastating. I was very upset and it's okay for me to be upset. I was upset because that person was more than a paycheck to me. So much more than a paycheck. Alyssa Scolari [25:28]: So it is difficult, but it is beautiful and it is about so much more than just money. And if you find yourself wondering if your therapist really cares about you, I think you should talk to them about that. I really do because that conversation in itself can be so healing. But I think you should also remember that there are other things that go into therapy than just the one hour a week. And I also think you should remember and ask yourself if some of those feelings are about your own defenses. Alyssa Scolari [26:09]: So I hope that this helped. This is just a really important topic because I know so many of us feel this way. So I really hope it was helpful. Feel free to let me know your thoughts. Swing by on Instagram. Again, that's Light After Trauma and yeah, I hope, hope everybody has a wonderful week and a great start to their November and I will see you all next week. I am holding you in the light. Take care. Alyssa Scolari [26:39]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support. [singing]

On this week's episode, Alyssa sits down with Julie Duffy Dillon, a weight inclusive Registered Dietitian, to talk about PCOS. Tune in for a discussion on how PCOS has become enmeshed in diet culture, anti-fat bias, and why this hormonal disorder may be linked to trauma. You might be surprised to learn that there is more to PCOS than what mainstream culture has led us to believe. Support the Podcast Julie's website

This episode is for those moments when we find ourselves wondering if what we went through is “bad enough” to be considered trauma. Tune in for a deep exploration of what trauma is and what it isn't, as well as the differences between being triggered and being traumatized.  Support the Podcast Light After Trauma website Transcript:   Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Oh, hey friends, what's up and welcome back to another episode of The Light After Trauma Podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and I'm happy to be here today. It has been a super difficult week, but I have made it through and I have a lot of things going on medically. So for the listeners out there, if you could please just send some healing vibes my way, I would very much appreciate that as I try to navigate what has been a very difficult process so far. And with that said, just on other housekeeping things, thank you all again, for those of you who connected with me on Instagram after the podcast two weeks ago. I know that during that episode, it was a solo episode. And I had asked a lot of you guys to follow me on Instagram, which my Instagram handle is Light After Trauma and, message me and kind of tell me if there's any topics that you are interested in hearing about on the podcast. Alyssa Scolari [01:36]: And a lot of you did, and I got you connect with a lot of you and meet some of you. And that was really fun. I love getting to hear from you all. And I love getting your feedback because this podcast is for all of you, just as much as it is for me and your healing is important to me. So if there are topics that you think that you might want to hear about on the podcast, please feel free to message me again. My Instagram is Light After Trauma, but also go check out my Instagram anyway, because we have really been ramping up the content and putting out some great tips and things for you all. And yeah, it's just been really fun to connect with you all on Instagram. So again, that handle is Light After Trauma. Alyssa Scolari [02:26]: And also if you can spare just a few seconds of your time, I would really appreciate a review on the podcast. I will leave it at that because I know I asked for that a couple of weeks ago. So if you are willing to do that, thank you so much. I appreciate it and appreciate you. And if not, that's okay as well. And today's episode, we are talking about feeling like what happened to us, isn't really defined as trauma or feeling like what happened to me, like I don't know if it was bad enough to be trauma. And I get quite a few people in my office and also have quite a few peers and colleagues and friends who feel that way as well. And I think it's a very important topic to talk about because we tend to feel very invalidated in our emotions. And there are some things that we can very much label, very clearly as trauma in this world. Alyssa Scolari [03:33]: For example, we can label sexual assault and rape as trauma. We can label child abuse as trauma. We can label fatal car accidents as trauma and a whole host of other things that in our society, we look at that and we go, oh, that's definitely trauma, that's traumatic. Being a victim of a violent crime, domestic violence, suicide, it's all very, very traumatic. But then I find that there's this other piece to trauma that a lot of people are missing and that doesn't really get talked about enough, which then causes people to think to themselves, well, do I have trauma? And well what happened to me wasn't that bad and other people have it worse. I know plenty of people who think to themselves and I myself was one of these people. People think to themselves, well, at least I wasn't this, or at least I wasn't that. And at least I wasn't sexually abused as a child. Now that, that must really be trauma. What I experienced, eh, it's not really that traumatic. Alyssa Scolari [05:03]: And I feel like this is a result of a couple of things. I think one, it's a result of just a general lack of understanding about what trauma is and what it can look like. But then I also think it's a result of a perhaps subconscious level of denial wherein, and I know this was the case for me when I call it trauma, when I sit here and I say out loud that I have been traumatized and I have endured trauma in my life, it doesn't really feel that good. It kind of ... Being able to say oh, well this wasn't trauma, this was hard, but this wasn't trauma, keeps me almost in a level of denial. Alyssa Scolari [06:01]: So it's almost a way of us like gaslighting ourselves and talking ourselves out of feeling the way that we feel about what happened to us and talking ourselves out of our human experiences. And that in itself can be a coping mechanism. If I tell myself that what happened to me or what I went through or what I didn't get in my life, and I'm going to circle back to that. If I tell myself those things, then I don't necessarily have to feel as bad. And I don't necessarily have to face all of the feelings or the intensity of the feelings. Therefore, it's easier for me to say other people have it worse, or this really wasn't trauma. It sort of gives us an out and a workaround for how we can avoid dealing with the heavy feelings. And here's the thing. Alyssa Scolari [07:07]: That works for a little while, but eventually it catches up to us. So I know that for me, when I was with one of my abusers and I was questioning. For a long time I was questioning whether or not it was actually rape. And I kept saying to my therapist at the time, "I don't think this was rape because I could have been more clear about it. I could have said no." In fact, I actually remember sitting in therapy one day and saying to her, "Well, what if I was the abuser? What if I'm the one who hurt him? What if I'm the one that manipulated him into having sex?" And I was so deep in this level of denial and I was so hung up on all of the things that I could have done or said to prevent what had happened. Alyssa Scolari [08:12]: Well, it couldn't have been rape because I did not scream, or kick, or cry, or try to fight for my life. And it wasn't rape because I stayed with him. And it wasn't rape because I thought that I wanted it at first. I said, yes at first. It was my fault. And again, these things aren't necessarily about just sexual assault. This can really be about any type of trauma. There are also lots of folks who find themselves thinking things like, well, my parents never hit me. So I don't really think it's fair to say that I was abused because there are children out there that really get beaten and raped. And I wasn't either of those things. And it becomes especially tricky. I think when we start thinking about, well, I had a lot of my needs met, for example, my parents had a lot of money. They bought me anything I needed. I never wanted for anything. I always had food on the table. Therefore, the emotional neglect couldn't have been trauma. It couldn't have been that bad. Alyssa Scolari [09:34]: And like I said before, that kind of works for a while, that like mindset and that mind frame and that way of thinking, and it helps keep the emotions at bay. But it doesn't help forever. Because what happens is when you start saying those things to yourself, you, like I said, deny yourself your true experience. And in doing so you also deny yourself the emotions that might go along with your experience. And this finds a way to somehow ruin your life in the future. Or I should say ruin parts of your life in the future. And a lot of this is subconscious. Alyssa Scolari [10:23]: So for example, if you're somebody who was in an emotionally abusive household, but let's say your parents were wealthy and you never wanted for anything. You might say to yourself, well, this wasn't trauma, but when you become older and you start looking for relationships yourself, what you tend to do is you tend to seek out partners who are just as emotionally, as abusive as the household that you grew up in, because you have never allowed yourself to come to terms with the fact that what you experienced was traumatic and was abusive. So when you continue to tell yourself on one level that nothing bad happened, but your body and your brain and your subconscious know on another level that it was bad, your body is forever seeking to get out of that cognitive dissonance that you have put yourself in. Alyssa Scolari [11:27]: And your body wants to do that by then recreating the childhood that you grew up in, where you were emotionally neglected or emotionally abused. You will recreate that over and over and over again in adulthood, in an attempt to either prove to yourself that it was okay, and there was nothing wrong with what happened to me as a child, or as a way to prove to yourself, oh, this wasn't okay. This is what happened to me when I was a kid. Or what my partner is saying to me right now is what my father used to say to me or what my mother used to say to me and it doesn't feel safe. Alyssa Scolari [12:19]: So it works in the long run to tell ourselves my trauma wasn't that bad, or it wasn't even trauma, but it catches up with us eventually. And that is a really, really hard thing to be able to sit with, this idea that what happened to you may have been in fact trauma, because then you would have to do something with that. And that can be really painful, but it's not nearly as painful as repeating the same patterns into adulthood and having difficult relationships or friendships that don't work out, partners that you don't end up with because you're spending your time trying to recreate your childhood. And again, I don't want to be very specific to childhood abuse here because this can also just run the gamut of all types of trauma. Alyssa Scolari [13:25]: I got into a car accident in October. Oh, it was October 12th, I believe, 2015. It was Columbus Day, which is now Indigenous Persons Day. Yes, I believe I said that right. But hurray for that. Goodbye Christopher Columbus. Get out of here. This land was never yours. I digress. Back then, it was Columbus Day and I got into a car accident and I was fine, I had some serious bruises and my car was totaled and it was a pretty bad accident. I have no idea how I made it out of that accident alive. There were three cars involved in total and somebody had run a red light and I was at the green light and I was just going through the intersection, minding my business and I got pretty much T-boned. So I don't know how I made it out with just a few bruises, but I did, and I could not get back into the car afterwards. I just couldn't. I wouldn't drive. I was shaking and I didn't really understand it at the time. I didn't. Alyssa Scolari [14:37]: All I knew is that my reaction was so strong and so intense. And I do remember my mom kind of being like, what is going on here? Like, I understand that it was scary, but you have to get back in the car and get on the road. And I was just like, no, I refused to drive. And when I would drive, I would have massive panic attacks. And I think that if you had asked me back then, if that was traumatizing, I would have been like, no, it really wasn't bad enough to be traumatizing because I lived, everybody else lived. Nobody was hurt. Nobody died. It was just a really bad car accident and things happen and it wasn't traumatizing. Alyssa Scolari [15:31]: So then I would get in my head about like why am I like this? Why am I having such a severe reaction to this? And that was five, six years ago. Yeah, because today is, the day that we're recording this, this is October 15th, 2021. So this was just around six years ago that this happened. And I just hadn't the faintest idea why I was reacting so strongly then, and now all these years later, when I look back on it, I realize that I was very traumatized by that. And I was traumatized by that for a very specific reason. And it was because not long before that car accident, I witnessed somebody be hit and killed or struck by a car and killed on the spot. And that was extremely traumatizing. And I never got help for that. I just stuffed those feelings down. And before that, I had had a history of my best friend's mom died in a car accident. One of my best friends in high school died by also getting hit by a vehicle. Alyssa Scolari [16:54]: And I just had a history of issues with cars, car accidents, anything, being on the road was extremely triggering. So I didn't really understand it back then because I didn't understand trauma to the depth that I understand it now, but that reaction that I was having wasn't just a result of that car accident. Even though if it was, that would be okay too. It wasn't just a result of the car accident. It was a result of all of the things, all of the traumas with cars that I had had in the past coming to the surface. And that is why I had such a strong reaction, but I didn't know it at the time. Alyssa Scolari [17:42]: So I just continued to invalidate myself and think that I was crazy. And I hate that word, but that is what I would tell myself. I do my best not to use that word anymore, even though I am a fan of ... Or not a fan, but I have a habit of saying things like, wow, that's crazy. I try very hard to substitute it with words like, that is wild. I do my best. I do my best with this linguistic evolution. But anyway, I digress. Alyssa Scolari [18:13]: So I wish that I could go back and I wish that I could tell myself that the truth is it doesn't necessarily matter if what happened to you was a one time thing, if what happened to you was traumatizing because it triggered things from the past. All that matters is that you are having an extremely strong reaction and you are experiencing symptoms of trauma. It doesn't matter. You don't necessarily need to have all of the pieces. I didn't have all the pieces back then and I wish, I wished then, and I wish now, that I had had a therapist that said to me, you don't need to have all the pieces of the puzzle for your emotions and your reactions to be valid. Alyssa Scolari [19:08]: Because I think that we get in our heads a lot about how, I think that something bad might have happened to me when I was younger and I don't have any memories, just kind of this weird feeling, but what if I'm just making it up? And what if it didn't really happen? And what if whatever did happen, wasn't really that big of a deal? But then the other question that we ask ourselves is, but then why am I like this? If nothing happened, why do I have these intense feelings? Why do I have these intense triggers? Why do I find myself feeling rage, or guilt, or shame over my body, or over the subject of sex or whatever it may be, why am I having this reaction if nothing happened? Alyssa Scolari [20:01]: And I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to put all the pieces of our childhood together and all the pieces of our past together, I should say, so that we can have an answer. And so that we can feel validated in saying, see, I am the way that I am because of A through Z that happened up to my life to this point. And unfortunately, trauma just never works like that because our brains are so brilliant and they're so wired for protection and survival, that there are certain things that our brains just store in the back, or just let go of forever. And that we can't store into memory as a way to protect ourselves. And I use this analogy with a lot of my clients. So I'm going to share it with you all because I think it's a really good one. Alyssa Scolari [20:55]: If you are a police officer or a law enforcement officer, and you get a call that there is a weird scene that you need to go out and investigate, and you go out to somebody's home and the glass is shattered and there are pools of blood on the floor. And there are shell casings from a gun and the furniture is broken and there's nobody home, but you just see lots of blood and broken glass and just lots of chaos, lots of disarray. It probably would make sense to a law enforcement officer or honestly, any human being that something really bad happened here. Alyssa Scolari [21:54]: Now, a police officer isn't going to go, well I don't have all the details and I don't have a body. So I'm not really going to investigate this and clearly nothing happened because nobody saw anything. I have no body, nobody saw anything. So clearly nothing happened and this is all just a random pile of disarray that means nothing. Yeah, no, that's not going to happen. Cops are not going to do that. Law enforcement officer's not going to do that. What they're going to do is they're going to be like, oh shit, something terrible happened here because look at all of the clues we have. We've got the blood, we've got the broken glass, we're going to dust for fingerprints, we've got fingerprints here, we've got a gun here, we've got shell casings. And they're going to do a thorough investigation, even though they don't have all of the pieces of the puzzle. And I think that we can use that analogy when it comes to trauma. Alyssa Scolari [22:58]: You may not ever get all of the pieces of the puzzle. I still don't have pieces of the puzzle. But I don't tell myself that just because I don't have those pieces doesn't mean that something bad happened or it doesn't mean that something bad didn't happen. Is that a double negative? Ah whatever, you get the gist of it. So we would still work on healing ourselves, and we would work with the clues that we have just as law enforcement would work with the clues that they have. The same thing goes. We get clues, whether it's, I'm finding myself getting really triggered during sex, or when somebody says this to me, I find myself getting really angry, or I find myself having nightmares all the time about something. I'm not quite sure what it is. I find myself being very hypervigilant. I panic often. I'm very sensitive to noises. You've got all those clues. You don't necessarily need the whole picture to call it what it is. Alyssa Scolari [24:19]: I hope that that is helpful because that has been super helpful for me because I am a big fan of invalidating myself. I was even doing it last night. I was sitting in my office and I had a break in between clients and I'm sitting there and I'm going well, what happened to me isn't nearly as bad as other things that I've seen people go through. And I found myself down this rabbit hole of like, who do I think I am, having a podcast, speaking about trauma when other people have had it so much worse than I have. And I was just like, Alyssa, stop sister, stop, stop doing that to yourself. Because all it did was make me feel like shit and it completely invalidated my experience. I invalidated my own experience. You don't deserve that. You don't need all the pieces to know it was trauma. Alyssa Scolari [25:24]: And the other thing I want to come back to you, which I said at the beginning, but I will circle back to, is that one thing that I think is very difficult in the world of mental health and the world of trauma, well, one of many things that I don't think gets talked about nearly enough is that, you know what? Sometimes trauma is about what you didn't get. So oftentimes there are folks that will say, I don't have a history of trauma. I was never abused, or raped, or assaulted, or living in poverty or a victim of a violent crime or whatever it may be. But trauma doesn't end there. Trauma can also be about what you didn't get in life. Did you not have stable parent figures? Did you not have the validation and support that you needed? Did you not have the financial security that you needed growing up? What didn't you have as a child? Because that can be just as traumatizing. Alyssa Scolari [26:37]: Now I know that as I go on and on about this, somebody out there is probably having this thought because my mother said this to me. And I think it's a very valid point. My mother said to me, back in May, I think we were having a conversation. And I was sort of giving my perspective on a situation and talking about trauma. And she said to me, "But you're a trauma therapist. Like you look at everything as trauma. Like, in your opinion, Alyssa, everyone has trauma." And I've actually been like really thinking about that for the last couple of months and I actually agree with her. I don't think that everything is trauma. I want to be clear about that. I really don't. I think that trauma really depends on the individual and that what might be traumatic for some person might not be traumatic for someone else. And I think a lot of that depends on protective factors. Like what's the level of support that they have? What are the types of resources that they have? Alyssa Scolari [27:49]: So I can get into protective factors on another podcast, but while I don't think that everything is traumatizing, I do think that everybody does have some level of trauma or will have some level of trauma in their lives. I mean, this pandemic alone has been traumatizing for folks. So I do believe that, and that's not really ... I do believe that there's more extensive trauma than others. But I do believe that everybody walks around carrying some level of trauma in their lives and that's okay. Alyssa Scolari [28:35]: Again, I think that when we hear the word trauma, we think of it as like, it has to be this huge, horrific thing. That like I was sexually abused as a child. Like no, it doesn't always have to be like that. It really doesn't. And it is so specific to every individual. But I do believe that all of us are walking around with our own undigested trauma, whether it be generational trauma, religious trauma, you name it. There are so many different types of trauma out there. So some people may disagree with that and take it or leave it. But I truly do believe that. And that doesn't mean that I'm pathologizing anybody. I don't think that trauma is what's wrong with you. I think that trauma is about what has happened to you. And I guess I just don't believe that any of us make it out of this world unscathed. So, I mean, that's my take on that. Alyssa Scolari [29:36]: So I hope that this was eye opening for some you. I hope that this was helpful for some of you. It took a lot of having to say this to myself over and over and over again, for me to start to realize what I was doing to myself and I still do it. Like I said, I was even doing it yesterday. I was invalidating myself. But ultimately, this is how I feel about it. This is my viewpoint on it. And I think that it doesn't matter the severity. If it's trauma, it's trauma and you don't need all the pieces to know it's trauma, and there's no such thing as it wasn't bad enough to be trauma, nobody gets to decide that for you. Nobody. The only one who gets to decide that is you and you alone. Alyssa Scolari [30:37]: So thank you for tuning in today. Thank you for listening. I really hope that this was helpful. Again, give me a follow on my Instagram, Light After Trauma and reach out, say hi, connect with me. I would love to hear from you. And if you have any questions about this or want any follow up questions answered again, just either shoot me an email, which is lightaftertrauma@gmail.com or just DM me on Instagram. In the meantime, I will be back next week and it was a pleasure as always. Love getting to share some of this stuff with you all. And I will be holding you in the light and wishing you you all a beautiful week. And I will talk to you soon. Alyssa Scolari [31:18]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram we are at Light After Trauma. And on Twitter, it is @LightAfterPod. Lastly, please head over to at patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support. [singing]

Christina Vitagliano shares her story from enduring child abuse to going on to start a multimillion-dollar business and publishing her own memoir. She breaks down the ripple effects that child abuse had on her life and why some of the effects of child abuse hit much so much harder in adulthood. Support the Podcast Light After Trauma website   Christina's Website   Transcript:   Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey, warriors. Welcome back to another episode of Light After Trauma. I'm your host, Alyssa Scolari, and we have with us today, Christina Vitagliano. Now, Christina is an author, entrepreneur and the founder of a successful family entertainment concept, Monster Mini Golf. Having spent three decades working on her memoir, Christina hopes to share her story and touch the hearts of readers with her account of childhood abuse, empowering survivors to reclaim their lives and learn to thrive, despite their trauma. Her passion is to provide affordable, fun entertainment that the whole family can enjoy. Monster Mini Golf is a multi-million dollar company with 30 locations across the USA and Canada. Without any further ado, I would love to introduce our guest today. We're going to be talking about childhood trauma with Christina. Welcome, Christina, how are you today? Christina Vitagliano [01:31]: I am good. How are you? Alyssa Scolari [01:33]: I am good. Really happy just to update the listeners. I just learned that while Christina is currently in Vegas, she's originally from the New England area, which I love. As all the listeners know, I'm a Jersey girl through and through, even though I live in PA now. Christina's accent feels like a warm cup of tea for me. Thank you for being here. I'm really happy to have you on the show. Christina Vitagliano [02:02]: Oh, thank you for inviting me. Alyssa Scolari [02:04]: Yeah, of course. You're spreading awareness about, I think, one of the most taboo topics in the field, people really shy away from talking about child abuse. Christina Vitagliano [02:19]: They do. Alyssa Scolari [02:21]: You are doing anything but shying away from that. Christina Vitagliano [02:26]: Took me a while, but yes. Alyssa Scolari [02:28]: I think that's important to point out, right? That it doesn't happen overnight for sure. Christina Vitagliano [02:33]: No. Alyssa Scolari [02:35]: I guess let's start with take me back to how you even became somebody who spreads awareness on childhood abuse. What is your story? Where did you come from? How did you get to where you are today? Christina Vitagliano [02:53]: Well, a quick overview. It started when I was about four years old and it lasted until I left home, which was around 16/17 years old. Actually I didn't move out until I was 18, but it was that whole period. Alyssa Scolari [03:06]: That was the whole period that you ... So you started being abused around the age of four? Christina Vitagliano [03:06]: Yep. Alyssa Scolari [03:06]: Okay. Christina Vitagliano [03:11]: Then I left home around 18 or when I legally could, I was out the door. Then I didn't tell anybody. I didn't talk about it. I didn't do anything. I'm sorry. That's my doorbell. Until I decided to sit down and write about it, which was about 20 something years ago. I sat down and just put it all on paper and then I sat on that for the last 20 years, and then finally published my memoir this year. Alyssa Scolari [03:42]: Wow. Christina Vitagliano [03:43]: Yeah. Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [03:45]: Okay. You escaped your abusive environment. Now, when you were in your abusive environment, did you know at the time that that was abuse? When did you make that connection like, "Oh, this is what's happening here." Christina Vitagliano [03:58]: Well, God, at four years old I try to ... I remember ... I have a very, very good memory on some things, but I couldn't tell you what I had for lunch yesterday, but- Alyssa Scolari [04:06]: Same here. Christina Vitagliano [04:06]: ... I do. I have such vivid ... That's a curse and a blessing at times, but very vivid memories. I remember being that young, knowing that what was happening wasn't right. I didn't know why it wasn't right. I didn't know ... Because you're four. I mean, you only know so much, but whatever it was, was wrong. On the flip side, I didn't want to mess up our family. My mom ... This was my stepdad and they had just gotten married. My big thing was, "Don't make mom unhappy because she was so unhappy before and now this man makes her happy and I don't want to mess things up." You know? That's how it started. I think once you start down that path, and I don't know why, you just continue down that path of, "I am going to handle this myself. I'm not going to mess things up for anybody." I was terrified that I would get taken away from the family and thrown into an orphanage, which to me was worse than what I was dealing with. Kind of short version of that whole story. Alyssa Scolari [05:16]: You're speaking such universal feelings and thoughts that children have, which is children have this concept that the devil you know ... And even adults, right? Christina Vitagliano [05:16]: Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [05:28]: The devil you know is better than the one that you don't. I think so many children endure what they need to endure for the sake of keeping the family together and not risking being pulled away from their family. Christina Vitagliano [05:48]: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think as a child, it's instinctive that you want to make your mom or your dad, whoever it is you're bonded to, or even if it's both of them, instinctively your job is to make sure that you do what you're supposed to do and make them happy because that makes you happy. I don't know. I mean, it's a vicious circle, but that's not true. You shouldn't do some things just to make other people happy. It took me 30 years to figure that out. Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [06:21]: Yeah. Honestly, it takes some of us so much longer because that's what we think. You're right. It's, "I want to make this person happy. I see how happy my mom is. I don't want to be the bearer of bad news. I don't want to stir the pot." It's so difficult. How did you get ... Was it just that with age you began to change and then when you became a teenager, you were like, "I got to get out of here." Christina Vitagliano [06:49]: No. A couple of things. Like you said, you know it was wrong. I did know it was wrong at a very young age, and as you get older, boy, do you learn it's more wrong. I mean, so now this ridiculous thing of, "Wow, I'm going to protect everybody else." The wrong part gets so hard and as you get older, much harder because you learn more, but you keep dealing with it. Then when I met my now husband, he was the first one that I ever told and he's the first one that ever approached me and said, "Hey, what's wrong with you?" I mean, short version, you know? Alyssa Scolari [07:25]: Right. Christina Vitagliano [07:25]: Hey, what the hell's wrong with you? He just did it in such a blunt way. We were young. We had been dating for maybe, I don't know, weeks. I had been previously married and divorced. Didn't tell him, didn't tell anybody I'd ever dated. Now I was about 30 years old, so I don't know if it was him in my face being so blunt and the only one who said, "What the hell happened to you?" Or if it was a combination of that and at 30 years old, you kind of ... I don't know what it is. You hit these milestones in life. 30 is one of them though. You say, "What am I doing with my life?" You think you're an adult and you're not an adult at 30 because that's bullshit. I don't even know if I'm an adult at my age and I'm in my 50s. It's just, you start to question yourself as to what you think you know and, "Hey, maybe it's time I stand up and stop doing what I've been doing to myself." You're abusing yourself really for so many years. I listened to one of your podcasts where you went through your relationship and I was like, "Dear God, how many of us have been down that same exact path with the same exact reasoning within ourselves?" Then one day you wake up and say, "Holy cow, I'm a dummy." In a good way though, it's a good thing to say because you realize you don't need to be that dummy all the time, you know? Alyssa Scolari [08:50]: Right. It's not like I'm a dummy in a disparaging- Christina Vitagliano [08:55]: No. Alyssa Scolari [08:55]: ... a self-disparaging way. It's almost like you wake up one day and the pieces fall together and you're like, "Oh, God." Christina Vitagliano [09:04]: Where was I, man? I know. Alyssa Scolari [09:07]: Right. I feel so disconnected from the person that I was when I was in it and in those bad relationships. You also realize that the bad relationships that you then continue to have in your teens and 20s are because you didn't really know any better. Christina Vitagliano [09:28]: Yeah. Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [09:29]: [crosstalk 00:09:29]. Christina Vitagliano [09:29]: Or you've conditioned yourself to be who you are and it's instinctive, "Well, I'm going to make this person happy. I don't want to upset the applecart." I do that to this day. I still do that. Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [09:42]: Oh, yes. The chronic people-pleasing and not wanting to upset anybody. There are people ... I say this all the time, especially with, oh, one of my clients in particular where we talk about the red flags and how all the red flags look green. Even the red flags that are so bad, they're on fire we choose to look past. Christina Vitagliano [10:03]: Yep. It's almost you'll do anything to avoid turmoil. I don't even know why that is, but it is a common thing like, "Oh, geez, I don't want to make anything bad." You know? I don't know. Alyssa Scolari [10:14]: Yeah. I think it's because we're taught when we're so young that other people's feelings matter more than our trauma and what happens to us. That's the narrative that we carry around, that it doesn't matter. Yes. I'm unhappy and yes, maybe this person is hurting me, but this person is giving me love, some sort of love. Even if it's not what I really truly need or want, it's something and something is better than nothing. At the end of the day, my partner's feelings matter more than mine so I stay. Christina Vitagliano [10:50]: I remember. I went through a similar relationship that you spoke of in one of your podcasts and I thought to myself, "Oh, you can relate to every single word that you were saying." Then you wake up one day and say, "Hey, I know this sucks. I know I'm in a bad relationship. I know that he's really f'ing with me. You know what I mean? But I'm afraid to live alone. I'm terrified to be on my own. What would I do by myself?" Then one day you wake up and say, "I don't care what I do by myself." I remember saying to myself, "If I sit in a room and I'm stuck watching TV for 12 hours a day because I have nothing else to do, I don't have any friends anymore because he's alienated everybody, then that's okay with me." As soon as you decide that whatever it is, is okay, and is better than what you were dealing with, the door opens. Then you're just like, "Well, this is all good." You realize everything you thought was complete bullshit." Because it's not that bad out there by yourself. You know? Alyssa Scolari [11:52]: Yeah. Eventually you'll get to a point ... Well, I shouldn't say everybody because some people spend their whole lives in- Christina Vitagliano [12:00]: Oh, you're right. Alyssa Scolari [12:01]: ... one toxic relationship to the next, which breaks my heart and is part of the reason why we sit here and talk about this. It's just about awareness. Yeah. I think some people do get to a point where the pain of being in the situation is greater than the pain that it would take to change. That's when change comes. I guess I'm wondering for you, what do you think got you to a point where you were like, "Okay. I'm going to sit down and I'm going to write all of this out." Because you said this was what? Like 20 years ago that you wrote all this down? Christina Vitagliano [12:37]: Yeah. I don't know because once my ... It wasn't my husband then, but once he asked me, "Hey, what happened to you?" When I answered that, you've held that in for that long. Now all of a sudden it's raw and it's in your face and he's the kind of guy that just asked and asked and asked. He won't stop asking. Alyssa Scolari [12:57]: He doesn't let it go. Christina Vitagliano [12:58]: He doesn't let it go, and I'm the person, and on the flip side, I'm still the people-pleaser so I answered all of those questions that I probably didn't want to answer at the time, but I did, which is a good thing I think in the long run because it was ... But once it was all out there, I was like, "Wow." As I'm talking about it, I'm teaching myself, "Wow. There's a lot of things I should have done differently and I don't want anyone else to have to deal with any of this. If you could help anybody at that point, you're like, "Holy cow, nobody should have to deal with some of this." I started to put it down on paper and I said, "I'm going to start from the beginning." And I just kept going. My husband, he teases me. He said, "For six months, all I saw was the back of your head on the computer." Because it's all I was doing, was writing, writing, writing. Then when I got done, I was like, "All right, now I want to publish this." Now, of course knew nothing about publishing, and 20 something years ago, self-publishing didn't really exist like it does now. I learned, "Holy cow, I have to have this professionally edited." Then I learned that cost about $5,000 plus at the time. I didn't have any money. Then that was the next hurdle. How do you get from this raw bunch of words to it being fine-tuned and ready to go to a publisher? Then, will anybody even want to publish it? I sat on that. I didn't have the $5,000. I had left my career when I married my husband because I didn't want to be a workaholic. There's a lot of things I think that when you come out of an abusive relationship, whether it's child abuse or whatever that's happened over a long period of time, you're not just affected with who you are mentally, but I don't know, my vice was working. I didn't drink. I didn't do any drugs, nothing like that, but I worked because work consumed my brain. When this all came out, I learned that I also have to fix that. I can't be working 70 hours a week and married to my job because if you're going to have a relationship, that person deserves some of you too. I wasn't capable of doing both of them. I knew that. I literally quit my career. Said, "I'm going to give this relationship thing a shot because I failed so many other times." I left that and went to work with my husband and started doing some things in odds and ends. Of course, we had no money. We're living on like peanut butter. After I wrote the book, I'm like, "I need $5,000. I don't have $5,000." I created a company called Monster Mini Golf and- Alyssa Scolari [15:34]: That's how you became the accidental entrepreneur. Christina Vitagliano [15:37]: Yes. In my head I was like, "I'm going to raise $5,000. I can do mini golf indoors, me and a friend, and when I raise the five grand, maybe I can get it published and then I'll be able to make enough money to live on too in the meantime. That was almost 20 years ago. Now we have 30 Monster Mini Golf locations. We franchised it. We've got two crazy locations in casinos in Vegas here, one with KISS and one with the Twilight Zone. I got sucked in and I became a workaholic and my husband owns this company with me so I kind of turned him into one now. Now he wants to be the workaholic and I don't want to be so that's its own battle. Yeah. Then when the pandemic hit, I sat down and said, "Oh, okay, we're closed. There's nothing to do. Hey, self-publishing is amazing. Look at all of this." I self-published. Alyssa Scolari [16:38]: Yeah. Yes. Now you have this book out titled Every 9 Minutes. Christina Vitagliano [16:45]: Yep. Yep. Alyssa Scolari [16:46]: Can you tell us a little bit about this book? Is this detailing your life- Christina Vitagliano [16:51]: It is. Alyssa Scolari [16:52]: ... and what you went through? Christina Vitagliano [16:54]: It is. It's titled Every 9 Minutes because every nine minutes there is a reported case of child abuse in the United States. Just in the United States, the rest of the world I can't even imagine, and that's reported. Alyssa Scolari [17:10]: Right. That's what's reported. Christina Vitagliano [17:12]: Child abuse, I think the majority is not ... I never reported mine because it's so taboo and you just condition nobody tells anybody about it and all kinds of very bad things are wrong with the whole subject. Anyway, that's where the title came from. The book is a memoir. I've changed a lot of names. I've changed a lot of places, just because respect for people that I ... Other people, good people. But I kept my name in it. It starts in 1969, which is when I'm four years old and it ends when I met my husband and how the whole thing came to light and I talked it. It spans 30 years, but I think a lot of people ... And I apologize with my dogs upstairs. I think- Alyssa Scolari [17:57]: Oh, is that what that is? Is that your dog? Christina Vitagliano [17:59]: We have two bulldog pups and they're insane. I think a lot of folks will ... And it's getting better. People will talk about child abuse and they'll talk about their experience of abuse. I think when I wrote this book, it spans that long because it's not just about the abuse. It's about the effect that the abuse has on you for that period of time. Alyssa Scolari [18:24]: That is so important that you said that because yes, when we talk about abuse, we cannot just talk about the incidents themselves. Christina Vitagliano [18:36]: No. Alyssa Scolari [18:36]: Because they have ripple effects onto your life for decades and ages to come. I love that you said that. I mean, it's so important not to just talk about, "Oh, this is what happens to me." But then what happened after. Christina Vitagliano [18:50]: This is what happened to me as a result of what happened to me. Alyssa Scolari [18:52]: Yes. Yeah. Christina Vitagliano [18:54]: This is why all these things happen. Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [18:57]: You said it best. You said it best. Christina Vitagliano [19:01]: A lot of people don't talk about that because ... and there's nothing ... I think it's because when somebody hears that subject, it just is like, "Wow." It's so big on its own that people have to get what happened out. To me, and this is a really weird thing, what was happening was the abuse became so routine to me that, yeah, I'm like, "I can handle that crap." It's everything else that's happening to me that I couldn't figure out until I was old enough to say, "Oh, it's all because of that crap." You know? Alyssa Scolari [19:35]: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, you're exactly right. I think it's so important and I guess one of the questions that I have for you is, what is your goal with this book? Are you trying to show people that they're not alone? Are you trying to show people that they can survive this? What was the goal for publishing this? Christina Vitagliano [20:02]: Yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head there. A few things. One, we're not alone. Two, I'm okay to talk about it if you guys can't, because there's a lot of people who can't talk about it. It doesn't matter whether we should or shouldn't. They just never will be able to. Sometimes knowing that somebody else is talking about it makes life a little bit better and yes, you can ... You know what's weird? I don't like the word survive it because I hate surviving shit. Surviving, it hurts. I don't want to hurt anymore and it's going to hurt forever and ever that never goes away. I think you have to try to overcome the intensity of it and overcome, you will never overcome it, but you have to outbalance it. You know what I mean? Yes, it's there, but I'm going to stay a step above it and keep it in check. Surviving it is bullshit because you never survive it. That's crap I think. Alyssa Scolari [21:02]: Yeah. Absolutely. I like what you said there, that it's not so much about surviving it as it is about managing the intensity of it. It's about not letting the memories and the flashbacks and the feelings and the urges swallow you whole and take over your entire life. Christina Vitagliano [21:23]: Yep. There are ... And it's weird. I think ... Some of it, I wrote about and some of it I don't because you can't write everything and you don't want to share literally everything. It's a hard subject to actually write about because people have a hard time reading about it too. You had to balance, "Hey, I have to share it and I don't want to share everything." I remember my editor when she went through it and you go through a child abuse scene in the book. She would come back to me and she would say, "Okay. Well, this is good. Change this. You have errors here and whatever." Then once in a while, she'll go, "Hey, detail this scene more." I'm like, "No. I'm not going to detail that scene more. Are you out of your mind? It's amazing that those words are there." But it was- Alyssa Scolari [22:03]: Right. Like, "You're lucky I even got this much. There's no way I can detail this." Christina Vitagliano [22:09]: Man, that was, I think ... You're like, "How was it writing it?" Writing it was one thing, dealing with the editing and having somebody above you or with you on your team say, "This is good but if you really want to share, and you want somebody to understand that you can outbalance this or do whatever, you have to show them what happened." Some of that stuff came back to me four and five times and finally ... It was over Christmas, this past Christmas before I published, right before I published. I sat on that book for about six weeks because of her notes. I was like, "I can't do it. I can't do what she's asking me to do." Another part of me was saying, "If you want this to be published and you want to share it and you want people to see what happened to actually make the point come across, then you have to do what she asked." It took six weeks and one day I got up. Just like I think we always ... Hey, you get up and all the puzzle pieces fell into place or kind of, and I said, "I'm going to give it a shot." I did, and when I got done it was like I had to go shower. I'm like, "I just got to walk away from that. Just don't ask me to read it again." You got the words, but somebody else read it now because I've just lived it too many times. Alyssa Scolari [23:24]: Yeah. That's I think another really important point, is I'm sure as you were writing it, or even going through the editing process, you find yourself right back in it. Christina Vitagliano [23:36]: Oh, it's brutal. The editing process was the worst because when you edit ... My book is about 370 pages. It started at 600 because for me to break from the time I was four, until whenever I thought the end was, I literally had to go through my entire life. Then somebody picks it up and says, "We don't need to know what you had for lunch one day." But I couldn't get from AA to B. We had to get rid of all that crap. Because it took me 20 years to publish, by the time I actually got it published, I had read that thing so many times it's just reliving it and reliving it and reliving it. Yes, it was good, but in some ways now, and I'm going to be honest, I'm very, very angry at things that I ... They just make you angry. It's like, "Why did these people let this happen? Why are these people today still siding with that guy?" Family members that were like "Oh, he's a saint." I'm like, "You're choosing not to see reality." That's a very hard thing to deal with. I have to be the person that says, "Well, that's your problem now." My issue is let's help people who want to be helped and band together. Alyssa Scolari [24:52]: That's the hardest part, is it's the reactions of the other people, right? Christina Vitagliano [24:52]: Oh, it's horrible. Alyssa Scolari [25:03]: You're bearing your soul and then there are people that go, "What are you talking about? He was a great guy. What are you doing this for?" That pure unfiltered rage, rage that you must feel like ... Yet, in this moment, you're in these moments where you are being almost like ... not forced, but you have the pressure on to share more and be a little bit more vulnerable. Then you're met with opposition from people, family members or friends or people who know you that are like, "What are you talking about? This is a good guy." In those moments, what kept you going? How did you stay true to the fact that this was right for you? Christina Vitagliano [25:55]: Anger. Alyssa Scolari [25:57]: Turning that rage into something productive. Christina Vitagliano [25:59]: Yeah. You say persevere, survive, overcome. Yeah, sure. All of that. Anger. I'm like, "No. You're wrong." More that I'm not the only one. I mean, nobody talks about this and in this day and age where we have ... And I will give ... Like well, let's say the millennials, because they want to cancel everything. On the flip side, people are speaking out more than anything in the world, but they won't speak about this. How do you want to do everything in the world and fix it all, ooh, but not that subject? That's too cool. That's too taboo. I don't want to do that. I want to get to the point where screaming about this too. Alyssa Scolari [26:39]: Yes. Christina Vitagliano [26:39]: You know? Alyssa Scolari [26:41]: Yeah. We're going to scream about this too. Christina Vitagliano [26:44]: Yeah. We're at that point where if enough of us are yelling, somebody will, people will say, "Okay. Well, it is about time." Celebrities have definitely been more vocal about it, and I think that's great that they are. I think being a normal person and not that celebrity and everybody protects ... not protects them, but they have the voice. I think that when you see a celebrity come out and say, "I was abused or this is happening in Hollywood." You're like, "Well, that's good. I'm glad somebody is talking about it." But you still feel like, "I'm just a normal person and nobody listened to me." I want to be the normal person that speaks out kind of. You know? Alyssa Scolari [27:24]: Yes. The thing is survivors of childhood abuse, we've all got rage and if we're not taking that rage and if we're not using it to speak up and speak out about this taboo topic and shout it from the rooftops, what child abuse is, how it affects people in the long-term, what this does to us, then that rage is still going to be there. It's still going to go somewhere and nine times out of 10, we're going to take it out on ourselves in ways that are self-destructive. Christina Vitagliano [27:56]: You are a hundred percent correct. Yep. Alyssa Scolari [27:59]: That rage has to go somewhere. There's so much power in using your voice, whether it's through writing, whether it's through speaking, taking that rage that you're talking about, which I'm glad you said it, because honestly that is what keeps us going. Rage. Christina Vitagliano [28:15]: It is. [crosstalk 00:28:15]. Alyssa Scolari [28:15]: Pure rage. Christina Vitagliano [28:17]: Yep. You have to keep it in check because we can't go running around with knives and guns, even though your head says, "Well, I wish I could." But you can't. Alyssa Scolari [28:24]: I wish I could. Christina Vitagliano [28:25]: I wish I could. Alyssa Scolari [28:25]: I wish I could. Christina Vitagliano [28:27]: Yep. Alyssa Scolari [28:27]: I wish I could. Christina Vitagliano [28:28]: Yep, but this isn't the cartoons. Alyssa Scolari [28:29]: Right. You have managed to take all of that anger, all of that grief and turn it into something that this is your voice. Your voice. I have to ask you, when you look back on the years in which you were enduring abuse, were there times where you just wanted to completely give up? Christina Vitagliano [28:59]: Oh, of course. Yes. Just yes. Yeah. I think more as ... That's weird because even after I've talked about it and it was out in the open and I wrote it down before I published, more as I got older. I think there's something about this subject, well abusive of any kind, the older you get, it seems like because you get smarter and wisdom kicks in. I think when you're younger, you don't realize how bad it is or how wrong it is. Then you get more educated on people and then you realize how jaded adults are and they're teaching their children the wrong thing. You get angrier. In some ways it's harder to deal with the older I get, but because you're smarter and because you've learned a lot, you learn to balance it better. It's not easy by any means though. Alyssa Scolari [30:05]: I love that you're saying this because this is what happens. It's fantastic because I think that so many people scratch their heads over why adults tend to be so distraught about abuse that happened to them when they were younger. I think a lot of people ... I've seen a lot of people, even people when talking about themselves, and even me personally, when I started a lot of my memories were repressed. When I started to have all of these memories, I was an adult. There were moments that I've had, and I know a lot of my clients have had, where it's like, "Why am I so upset about this now? Why am I more upset about this today than I was 25 years ago when this happened?" It's because the older you get, the more you know, the more you understand and the more you feel and the more you have language to be able to put to what you feel. It's actually very, very natural. It's actually harder when you're older, so [crosstalk 00:31:16]. Christina Vitagliano [31:15]: Yeah. What makes me anger is as you know all of that and you say to yourself, "Goddammit, that's why these adults are abusing children because they know that." I got angrier and still get angry because I'm like, "Well, this person was a full grown adult and what they were doing was bad, but they were a hundred percent aware of what they were doing too and I think that's what makes you angrier as you get older, is you really, really did something terrible to a child with full knowledge of what you were doing. You know? Alyssa Scolari [31:53]: Yes. There's no excuse. No excuse for it. You knew, you know, you took full advantage. Christina Vitagliano [32:01]: You chose to do that. That's a choice. You know what I mean? It's not a sickness. That's a bunch of bullshit. You've chosen to do that. If it was carried on from your parents, then that's a shame, but this is why we're standing here today talking about it so that maybe it doesn't keep going because nobody seems to care that it is going. Alyssa Scolari [32:21]: Yeah. You know? When you talk about the whole, it's a sickness type thing. You know what? Whether it's a sickness or not, I don't give a fuck because you know what? I have a sickness. I have complex trauma and do I walk around hurting people? No. Christina Vitagliano [32:37]: Exactly. I don't care if it's a sickness. It still shouldn't happen. You know? Alyssa Scolari [32:42]: There's no excuse. It's not an excuse. Christina Vitagliano [32:43]: No. No. Alyssa Scolari [32:44]: Right? Christina Vitagliano [32:45]: Yep. Alyssa Scolari [32:46]: It wouldn't be an excuse for me to get drunk and get in my car because I had a night where I was traumatized. That's not an excuse, so why- Christina Vitagliano [32:57]: Yeah. Why is it okay for these other people? Alyssa Scolari [32:58]: ... why do we make excuses? Why do we excuse child abusers so often? It's infuriating. I could scream about it from the rooftops. Christina Vitagliano [33:09]: It really is. It really is. Alyssa Scolari [33:11]: It really is. This book that you've written, it feels like it's a message, not just for other people, but also for your younger self. Like a message to hang on because look at ... Could you ever have imagined the life that you have for yourself now? Would you ever have pictured it? Christina Vitagliano [33:29]: No. Not in a million years. Not even close. Yeah. Yeah, so weird. Alyssa Scolari [33:36]: I'm going to ask you another pretty candid question. Knowing what you know now about how your life was going to turn out, are you glad you stayed? Are you glad you hung on? Christina Vitagliano [33:52]: Through all of it, you mean? Alyssa Scolari [33:53]: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Christina Vitagliano [33:55]: Yeah. I mean, not glad that it happened obviously, but yes. Yes. I always ... Part of me, I think survived ... And this is my individual case, I think is because my father was so jealous in some weird way that if I got a better grade in school than his crazy son did, that would piss him off. I learned, "Oh, well, then fuck you. I'm going to piss you off." In a lot of ways, I was like, "Oh, yeah, he's failing and you want me to fail too? I'm not going to fail." There's a lot of things that ... And I think a lot of us do that is, "Oh, you don't like that. There's a way I can piss you off, but not piss you off." You know what I mean? Alyssa Scolari [34:41]: Yeah. Christina Vitagliano [34:41]: I just became this driven, crazy person to not be like the rest of my family. I don't want to say there's good that comes out of bad because nobody wants to go through that bad. Nobody should ever go through that bad, but because of the abuse there are, I don't know, things about me that I'm glad that they're like that, you know? I don't know. It's a hard thing to explain. Not that I'm thankful for him for anything, but you know? Alyssa Scolari [35:17]: No. Right. We're not thankful. It's not like we're glad that it happened because it taught us a lesson. Christina Vitagliano [35:24]: [crosstalk 00:35:24]. Alyssa Scolari [35:23]: None of that. It's just a matter of I think for the people out there who are in this, in the thick of it and just want to give up and want to end their lives, and want to throw in the towel and say, "Fuck it." It's like, I think about you and your story and you've managed to go from being severely abused, to getting out, getting married, starting a multi-million dollar business, writing a book, being a voice for those who don't have a voice. I think to myself like, "If that's not a message for the listeners out there to keep going, I don't know what is." Because look at where you're at now. It's so inspirational and it gives so much hope, even though, you're very real about, listen, some days are bullshit. Some of this sucks. This sucks. It's still infuriating and I'm not over it because we don't get over it. We do not get over it, but we learn how to not let it consume us. Christina Vitagliano [36:43]: Yeah. That's the balance. Alyssa Scolari [36:46]: That's the balance. Christina Vitagliano [36:49]: Yep. It is. Alyssa Scolari [36:52]: Now, if people ... Because I just feel like this book ... First of all, for the listeners out there, this book has like well over a hundred reviews, I think I was looking on Amazon. Christina Vitagliano [36:52]: Yeah. Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [37:06]: Yeah. This book has well over ... almost 120 reviews on Amazon, extremely high-rated book. If people want to find more about you, want to find your book, what's the best place they should go? Should they go right to Amazon? You tell us. Christina Vitagliano [37:29]: Amazon's definitely the easiest so if you're in Amazon and search Every 9 Minutes, it pops up. My social media, I'm always obviously promoting my book, but if you look up Every 9 Minutes on anything, Twitter or anybody, it'll obviously pop up. My website and all my social media handles are 123ChristinaV, so whether you're on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook, or my website is 123christinav.com, you can find me there. You can message me from anything anywhere. I'm very responsive. Alyssa Scolari [38:03]: Fantastic. You said that's 123ChristinaV? Christina Vitagliano [38:08]: Yep. And .com is my website. Yep. Alyssa Scolari [38:13]: Okay. Okay. For the listeners out there, I'm going to link that in the show notes. Head on over to the show notes so you can find that. You'll have access there to everything. Christina is also ... She's a speaker. She does so much. Check out this book. The link will be in there. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. Christina Vitagliano [38:36]: Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [38:37]: It was an honor to talk to you. I think you're shedding light on the ripple effects of childhood abuse and you're screaming it from the rooftops. Christina Vitagliano [38:47]: Thank you for having me. Alyssa Scolari [38:49]: Of course. It was a pleasure. Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. We appreciate your support.

Have you ever felt like you just don't deserve to be happy? Or more specifically, have you ever found yourself having self-harm urges or feeling suicidal after someone is genuinely kind to you? If so, you are not alone. Tune in to understand the reasons why this might happen as well as how you can train your brain to start accepting love and kindness. Support the podcast and the movement! Light After Trauma website Transcript:   Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey, Warriors, what's up? And welcome back to another episode of The Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari ,and I am honored to be here with you. We're doing a solo episode today. So some housekeeping things first. I just wanted to say thank you so so much for 15,000 downloads on the podcast. I am blown away and continue to be blown away. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That was a really exciting milestone. Alyssa Scolari [00:56]: The other thing I wanted to say is head on over, if you haven't done so already, to my Instagram page lightaftertrauma is the handle. So it's just the exact same title as the podcast. And check out some of the content and let me know what you think. If there's more you want to see. I have really been boosting the amount of content and really putting it out there. I'm trying to put out content about four days a week and I'm also going to be doing an Instagram live this Thursday, October 7th, at 8:00 PM Eastern time. So that's Eastern standard time. I would love it if you could make it. Even if you can pop in for only 30 seconds to just say hi, I would love to meet you. This is my first official Instagram live. So I'm really excited for it. Alyssa Scolari [01:50]: And yeah, I can't wait to meet the folks who have been listening to the podcast because it feels like I have a bunch of friends out there. And I know I've said this before, but it just feels like I have so many friends out there, but I don't know their names. And I would love to just talk to you. And thank you personally, we're talking about stress management on the Instagram live, so I'm going to share some stress management tips because Lord knows we all need it. Alyssa Scolari [02:14]: So that's this Thursday, October 7th at 8:00 PM. Eastern Standard Time. I will be on Instagram live, feel free to come join. The Instagram handle is lightaftertrauma and thank you always for your support and your love. I love you all so much. And also if you haven't done so already, please leave a rating or review for the podcast. The more ratings we get, the more we grow and the wider audience we reach so that we can give even more free content to people all around the world. Alyssa Scolari [02:49]: So if you are a listener of the podcast and you like what you're hearing, or if you hate what you're hearing and you want things to be different, just go leave an honest review. Let me know your thoughts. I would be honored to hear from you because this podcast really is for you. So yeah. Please leave a review. I would really appreciate it. Alyssa Scolari [03:12]: Okay. So today, so I cannot take credit for the inspiration for the topic of today's episode. This topic came from a podcast listener, so thank you. I will not name their name because they did not give me permission to do so. So you know who you are. I told you I was going to be doing an episode about this topic this week. Thank you so much for reaching out and sending me an email. It was great to connect with you. Alyssa Scolari [03:42]: So today we are talking about feeling like you don't deserve to heal and feeling like you don't deserve nice things or compliments or healthy relationships, or really any kind of genuine relationship. Feeling like you just deserve loneliness and heartbreak because that is the narrative that you grew up believing because that is what you had experienced for of your life. Alyssa Scolari [04:22]: I love this topic because it really resonates with me. When I first started my recovery journey and I was in therapy, my therapist, who was truly not, she's not the greatest at all. And she did a lot of harmful things and this was one of them. When I started this process and started uncovering a lot of repressed memories, I was in a spiral. I was going out of my mind. They were definitely some of the worst years of my life and, dare I say, at many points I often remember saying to my therapist or my husband, "This process is actually harder than experiencing the trauma itself." And that's not a fact. That's just my lived experience is that having to like work through it and having all those memories come to the surface so much harder than the trauma itself. Again, that's just my experience. Alyssa Scolari [05:28]: So when all of this started happening and I started having all these memories flood back, my therapist was really good at showering me with compliments. Which, I think that there's a debate on whether or not therapists should be constantly complimenting their patients. I think it depends on the type of compliment. It depends on the goal of the compliment. But my therapist, wasn't very good at holding space for me being in that spot. She very much wanted me to be healed and happy and she wanted me to immediately see how wonderful I was and be done. And I wasn't there. It was going to me a long time to get there. But in that process, all of her compliments, and when I say compliments I mean things like, "Look at how well you're doing. Look at how you're still functioning in life even though you've been through so much." Alyssa Scolari [06:35]: Let's see, what else did she say? Oh, she was full of them. "Look at what a wonderful family you have. Look at the husband that you have." She used to talk about my husband like, "He's such a wonderful guy and you did all of these things. You have this amazing, wonderful life now." And what I noticed was happening for me is the more she talked about how amazing my life is, right? She would kind of say, "Yes, this trauma happened. These terrible things happened, but your life is so amazing now." And the more she would say that to me, the worse I would get when it came to self harm, any kind of like self-deprecating, the self-deprecation increased. Really all the self-destructive behaviors skyrocketed. And I noticed this pattern early on, but I didn't quite understand it enough. Alyssa Scolari [07:33]: So I wasn't really able to talk to my therapist about it at the time because I didn't understand what was going on. But it wasn't just my therapist. Right? It was anybody in my life. If somebody would say, particularly the words, "I'm proud of you," were really hard for me to hear. And if somebody would say that I would spiral. I can recall a time where, so I have, had a supervisor, I should say. My supervisor has now blossomed into a wonderful friend and mentor, Rebecca Christensen. She's been on the podcast before. She's amazing. She's just, she's an angel on earth is really what I can say about Rebecca. Alyssa Scolari [08:21]: But you know, when I first started meeting with Rebecca and she helped me ultimately open up my private practice and she would often say, "I am so proud of you for doing this. I am so proud of you for doing that." And don't get me wrong. She didn't mean anything about it. She had no idea that I was panicking when I would hear those words and neither did anybody else, so this is not a blame game. My therapist definitely knew. So I do place the appropriate amount of blame on her, but for everybody else, this is not a blame game. Alyssa Scolari [08:56]: So she would say all the time, Rebecca, "I'm really proud of you. Look at all you're doing. You're amazing. You're going to do great things in life." And I would, she might say that in a text message. And I would not be able to look at it. If I were to open up my phone and I could see like the, the first, I don't know, whatever, three to five words of the text. And if I could tell that it was a compliment, I would have to shut my phone off and put it down and I couldn't look at it. Alyssa Scolari [09:25]: And then I would start to panic. And then I would call for David. And then I would usually end up crying or having a panic attack. And then eventually I would read the kind message and I would have another panic attack. And then I would talk to David about it incessantly. And I would be like, "Well, David, what does this mean? Do people actually think that I'm kind? Do people actually think I'm a good person? How can this be?" And then I would say, "Well, David, they just don't know the truth. They just don't know what I'm really like. They just don't know how evil I am, how insane I am." Alyssa Scolari [10:09]: Because I truly thought that I was in every sense of the word, insane. That all of the memories that were coming back were false and that something just broke in my brain. So I said to David all the time, "These people who are showering me with compliments and telling me I'm a good therapist, they just don't know the real me. And if they really knew what I was like, they would hate as much as I hate me." Alyssa Scolari [10:42]: How sad is that? I take a moment to pause and reflect on that because I was fighting for my life and I couldn't even tell how amazing I was doing it. It wasn't until, let me think. Yeah. You know, it, it wasn't really until the last year or so. And I attribute so much of my healing to this podcast. Hasn't really been until the last year that I have been able to sit with compliments. So I'm sure that I'm not alone in this. And I know I'm not because the podcast listener, that I was referring to earlier, emailed me and told me that this is one of the most difficult things for them. And I could not agree more in the beginning when I was first understanding everything I had been through and trying to make sense of it all. I couldn't hear that I was a great person. Alyssa Scolari [11:40]: I couldn't hear how strong I was, because I didn't even know if what I was remembering really happened. Or if what I was remembering was just some figment of my imagination. And I think a lot of trauma survivors feel that way. Whether or not we repressed our abuse or not. Whether or not we have repressed trauma or we have a full memory of it, I think a lot of us feel this way. Well, what if I made something up? Well, what if I could have done something differently when I was traumatized and then nothing bad would've happened to me? Alyssa Scolari [12:15]: We find ways in our head all the time to make the trauma our fault, because that gives us a sense of control. And it makes us feel like we could have done something about it. So I just couldn't handle it. And I know that I would resort to binge eating really before, before I was able to recover from my eating disorder, lots of compliments and lots of praise and lots of attention would often result in binge eating and occasionally cutting. Alyssa Scolari [12:46]: But I would say more so binge eating to try to stuff down any of the feelings that were coming up from me when I was having somebody genuinely love me and care for me. I couldn't tolerate it. And I'm sure a lot of us are wondering, right? Like, "Well, why?" Like, "Yes, I do that too. You know? Yes, I also can't take a compliment. Why is that? I get really uncomfortable when people will praise me or compliment me. Why am I like that?" And let's break it down on the most basic, like a fundamental level. Alyssa Scolari [13:21]: So when we look at your brain structure, when you have complex trauma and you have a history of being invalidated, unheard, unseen, gaslit, made to feel like your voice doesn't matter. If you've been sexually abused, physically abused, emotionally abused, whatever it's been, your brain develops., especially if you experience this as a child, that changes the development of your brain. So without getting too technical, because I am a brain nerd and I could absolutely go off on this, but I won't. So without getting too technical, what happens is your brain develops and gets to this sort of homeostasis where it is so used to the invalidation. Alyssa Scolari [14:18]: It is used to being ignored. We are used to being unheard. So, you know, somebody gas lights us. We're like, "Yep. That's just one more person trying to fuck with my head." Somebody sexually abuses us. We're like, "Yep. That's just one more person who doesn't respect my body." Doesn't mean that it's not traumatizing. Please don't misunderstand me because it is all extremely traumatizing. But when you're in it and you're in the thick of it, we learn to expect the worst things to happen to us. "Well, yeah, of course my mom said that to me." Or, "Of course my dad said that to me. That's what he said his whole life. That's just dad. That's just what he does." Alyssa Scolari [15:06]: So we sort of developed this pattern of accepting the abuse and accepting things that people say that hurt us. Shit, if I could go back now and talk back to all of the people who have ever said horrible things. Whew. I wish I could. I wish I could. And, and sometimes I have, right? Sometimes I have. But I know for so many of us, we can't and back then, I know for me, I was just like, "Yep, this is one more person who has let me down or disappointed me. Or one more person who has crossed a boundary, but I don't feel of comfortable speaking up or I'm not going to say anything because you know what, that's what people do. People don't respect my boundaries. So I'm used to it." Alyssa Scolari [15:58]: So then you have somebody come along, and a lot of times it's your therapist, because we talk about this stuff in therapy all the time. It's a little bit easier to brush off compliments from friends because we're just like, "Ah, yeah. You're my friend. I know you like me. Whatever." A kind of take it for granted type of thing. But when we finally go to therapy and we are getting treatment and our therapist is genuinely proud of us. Or we we can tell that whatever was said, whatever that therapist said, gave us this message that they genuinely care. That they genuinely want us to get better. That they genuinely see the good in us our brains initially are kind of like, "We're not used to this. What is this? Somebody respecting my boundaries? Oh no, I can't handle it." Alyssa Scolari [16:53]: And then what happens? Right? We panic. Oftentimes we feel guilty. Oftentimes we get extremely uncomfortable. We feel shame. And we just kind of want that moment to be over. And we want to brush it under the rug, because we're really uncomfortable. Sometimes it gets even worse where that comment kind of sits in our brain. And then we feel like we have to self destruct because it's like, "Nah, my therapist said that to me. And that can't be true. That can't be true. My therapist just doesn't really understand what a monster I am. So I'm going to show them what a monster I am." And a lot of this is subconscious. I want to point that out. Right? I don't think any of this for most people is like a conscious stream of thought that we sit in. Alyssa Scolari [17:39]: It's like, "Well, how can I show my therapist what a monster I am?" I do think a lot of this is subconscious and for me it certainly was subconscious. So our brains simply can't tolerate it because it is so new. And the brain on trauma is very hypervigilant. It is extra wired for protection. So when we are receiving information that is brand new to us, we automatically label it as a threat, even though it's a compliment, right? Even though it's something like, "Hey, Alyssa, I just really love the way that you are so resilient and you keep going and you keep getting up and you're able to also work through your own shit and be there for other people. I think that's amazing. You're doing great things in this world." Alyssa Scolari [18:26]: Oh, I'm cringing. I'm cringing as I say it. Cringing as I say it, because it is so hard and my brain is like, "No, that can't be right. That can't be right. We're not used to receiving this kind of information." So even though it's good stuff, my brain is hearing that and going, "Ugh, no, no, no, no, no. This must be a threat. This must be a threat." And then what happens when your body perceives a threat, right? You go into fight, flight, freeze, or falling. And we panic or we self destruct or we shut down or we kind of just laugh because we don't know what else to do. Or we kind of mimic the facial expressions of the person next to us because that's what's supposed to keep us the safest. Alyssa Scolari [19:10]: So that is, breaking it down on a fundamental level, that is why this happens. So the good news is this changes. It has certainly changed for me. I had somebody text me, I want to say, what's today? It's Sunday, October 3rd, when I'm recording. So I had somebody text me on Friday, October 1st. And this person was somebody that I used to work with a few years back and she follows me on social media and she texted me only to say, "I am so proud of you. And I hope that one day I can be half the clinician that you are." And man, that was amazing to hear. Alyssa Scolari [20:08]: But I have to say that if this were to two years ago, I would've not been able to tolerate it. I would've started sobbing and I would've showed David and I would've had a panic attack. And I would've said, "She doesn't know the real me. She does not know the real me." But today I open up my phone and I see that and I go, "Oh man, this is awesome." Alyssa Scolari [20:39]: This is somebody who did not have to do that. With as busy as everybody is, people don't have time for compliments. People usually just make time for the complaints. People are so much more likely to complain than compliment someone. So for her to find the time out of her busy day to pick up her phone and compliment me when it's, doesn't really, it's not going to affect her. Right? This was a completely selfless act, as small as it might seem, it actually feels really big to me. And I just smiled and I teared up a little bit, but I teared up because I'm just so grateful and very humbled by the love that I've received, but I can tolerate it now. Alyssa Scolari [21:34]: And the reason I can tolerate it is because of this podcast. So it does get better. What you are doing by trying to sit with people saying kind things to you and trying to accept people saying kind things to you and trying to accept relationships where people respect your boundaries you are rewiring your brain. Alyssa Scolari [22:03]: Your brain is forming new neural pathways all the time through this process called myelination and, I believe I said that correctly, if I didn't someone correct me, but I believe the process is called myelination. Where your brain is forming these new neural pathways. And the more we allow ourselves to be around people who shower us with love and affection, unconditional love, I should say, and kindness, the more our brain is rewiring itself. So that now when it receives that information, when it gets that input, it goes, "Oh, we know what this is. This actually, isn't a threat. This is good stuff. So we're going to file this away as a really good moment and not a moment to freak out and panic." So I really hope that makes sense. And unfortunately the process of rewiring your brain it takes a long time. Alyssa Scolari [23:09]: You know, the great news is that it can be done it. I am living proof that it can be done. The brain is neuroplasticity, right? That means that the brain is constantly changing and evolving. So in the same way that your brain learned that only boundary crossing and abuse and gas lighting was safe, that's the same way in which we can learn that unconditional love and affection and genuine compliments are safe. It takes time and it takes practice. So what does that look like? Right. It's nice to talk about that in theory, right? "Oh yeah. Okay, great. My brain needs to rewire itself, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." But what are some things we can do to work on that? Because it takes work, right? It's not just something we're going to wake up one day and go, "Oh God, look. I can accept these compliments now and I can accept healing. And I can accept that. I'm getting a little bit better." Alyssa Scolari [24:12]: Could be because it's not just, and I should say this, I should have said this from the beginning, but it's not just compliments, right? It's the healing process. It's anything positive in our lives, right? It's healing when we're getting better. When normally a triggering situation would've made us self destruct or self harm or use our eating disorders. And then in this instance, we didn't, and we overcame this triggering situation without self-harming, all of that, right? Any kind of steps towards healing, healing your brain, healing your nervous system, healing your relationships, and your social life. All of it can be difficult. So what are some things that we can do when we notice that we are starting to have better people in our life, or when we notice that we're starting to not self destruct, when time get tough, what can we do? Alyssa Scolari [25:09]: Here are some things that I did. So one of the things that a lot of DBT skills, which I'm sure many of you may be familiar with, I know that I've talked about them before on the podcast. So DBT stands for Dialectical Behavior Therapy and DBT is really wonderful for like distressed tolerance and has really effective coping skills. And honestly, I hate the word coping skills because I think it's just so hard to use coping skills when you're triggered. And it's so hard to find coping skills that are actually good and effective, but I can say, I promise you, DBT skills are where it's at and go a really long way in helping to sit with this kind of stuff. So DBT skills are meant for like, well, they're not meant just for self harm, but they definitely are used in self harm. Alyssa Scolari [26:08]: And that's really what this process is, is you're having a really great healing experience or a really great interaction with somebody and your brain is perceiving that as a threat and therefore self-destructing. So for me, I find that what helps is sitting with it and trying to talk through what exactly is happening inside of my brain and why I'm perceiving this as such a threat. And sometimes I can't, right? Sometimes that like good interaction is way too much for me. And that's when I have to do other stuff, which is like, "Okay, I'm going to sit with this, but I'm also going to go take a bath." Or, "I'm also going to go take a walk." Or sometimes what we need to do is distract. And that can be key. Alyssa Scolari [27:05]: A lot of times, that's what I need to do. And the thing for me is as much as I want to distract, I don't want to forget about it because it really is special to me when somebody is kind to me. Or when I have a really good interaction with somebody it's very, very special to me. So while my system might not be able to tolerate it in that moment, I very much want to come back to it. So what I have found most helpful is I will write it down. Whether I keep like a note in my phone, or if it's a text message, I'll take a screenshot and then I will immediately distract it with somebody else or with something else or somebody, right? I'll talk to my husband or I'll be playing with the dogs, or I will, a really big fan of Epsom salt baths. Or we'll just go to the gym. Or we'll kind of go read emails if I'm in the middle of a work today. Alyssa Scolari [28:02]: But writing it down really how helps me to be able to like put it someplace and then kind of move on with my day. So it's like, "Okay, my system can't tolerate this right now. So I'm going to distract. I'm going to do something that's going to calm my nervous system." Whatever that might be. Also another big one making a hot cup of tea. Ugh. So soothing to me. So do things to soothe your nervous system, if you can't tolerate it. Alyssa Scolari [28:29]: And I know that that sounds kind of silly, right? Like why should I have to try to calm my nervous system or use coping skills because I received a compliment? But again, it goes back to the way your brain is wired, which as a result of trauma, your brain is wired so that you're used to being shit on. But when somebody is actually respectful, your brain's like, "Uh oh, what is this?" Right? It really should be the opposite in folks without a history of trauma they're used to people respecting them. And then when somebody is disrespectful, then they're nervous system gets dysregulated and their brain is like, "Rut oh, this is a threat." Alyssa Scolari [29:10]: So sitting with those feelings, trying to work them through, going through DBT skills, I won't go through all of them. I think that a lot of sensory stuff is really helpful for me. Whether it's cold water, whether it's, like I said, a hot cup of tea, whether it's a massage, an infrared sauna, I'm a very sensory oriented person. So you can Google DBT coping skills and you can find a list of skills. And again, I know that that might sound like a lot of work, but I am telling you it is so, so worth it. Alyssa Scolari [29:47]: And over time, as you continue to be able to incorporate this new information into your body and into your brain, this new information that tells you, "Oh, hey, maybe I am not a horrible human being after all. Maybe I'm just a person who had terrible things happen to them." It will get easier and easier to accept wonderful interactions. And it will be easier and easier to accept your healing. And you will find yourself craving healing and you will find yourself feeling worthy and deserving of healing. Alyssa Scolari [30:28]: So I hope that that helps spread some awareness and insight as to why it is so hard for people to take a compliment or for people to have a genuinely a good interaction with other people in this world. Why we self sabotage with our healing sometimes because it's really difficult, right? The trauma is hard, but the healing is hard too. So I know that I'm not alone in this, as I said earlier, and you are not alone in it either. It's really difficult, but you can get there and you will get there. Alyssa Scolari [31:07]: So with that said, I hope that everybody has a wonderful week. Remember again, I am going live on Instagram this Thursday at 8:00 PM. Eastern time again, that is this Thursday, October 7th. My Instagram handle is lightaftertrauma. Be sure to go check that out as there is lots of great stuff on that page now. We're really rolling out the content and I am holding you all in the light. My husband has brought home some Rita's water ice. So I am going to go chill out with him, have some Rita's and enjoy my Sunday night. Wishing you all the best. Take great care. Alyssa Scolari [31:47]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram. We are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter. It is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightafter trauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's paton.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

We were not meant to live our lives by simply going through the motions. Unfortunately, far too many people go through their days feeling unsettled and unhappy with their circumstances. Donna Bond is no stranger to this feeling. Transforming herself from a marketing executive to now a life and spiritual coach, Donna shares her powerful story of her refusal to accept anything less than the best that life has to give.  Support the Podcast Light After Trauma website Donna's website Denise's website Transcript   Alyssa Scolari [00:23]: Hey. What's up everybody? How's it going? Welcome back to another episode. I'm really excited about the next couple months as we really dive into this fall season because I've got some awesome content lined up. I am so excited. As a quick little reminder, I just want to ask, if you haven't done so already and you are enjoying what you are hearing on the podcast, please head on over to wherever you like to listen and leave a review and rating for the podcast. That does wonders in terms of trying to spread awareness for the podcast and to garner more support for the podcast. I love doing this. I want to continue doing it us. And one of the big ways in which I will be able to continue to do this is through your help and your support. So please leave a review. We also have a Patreon, if you are able to support that, that would be incredible so that we can have even more content. And you can find that Patreon either in the show notes or you can go to the website, which is lightaftertrauma.com and you will have everything you need there. So with that said, I will dive right into who our guest speaker is today. We have got the lovely Donna Bond and Donna is a spiritual advisor, a business and life coach and the author of Original Wisdom: Harness The Power of the Authentic You. Donna is supporting individual transformation of consciousness and she assists clients across the globe and she helps them to evolve to new heights of meaningful success, personal growth and fulfillment and spiritual aliveness using the principles and practices of spiritual psychology. And I think it's really important to note that Donna has a master's degree in spiritual psychology, which truthfully, I'm not very familiar with at all. So I'm really looking forward to diving in and finding out what that is all about because I didn't even know getting a master's degree in spiritual psych was an option. So we are going to find out all the answers to those questions Tuesday with Donna. So hi Donna. Welcome to the podcast. Donna Bond [02:46]: Hi Alyssa. Thank you for having me. So glad to be here. Alyssa Scolari [02:50]: So glad to be here too. I am just for the listeners. I am looking at such a dreamy background. We've got Donna's book in the background and then are those pink roses? Donna Bond [03:04]: Those are pink roses. Alyssa Scolari [03:06]: Are they real? Donna Bond [03:07]: Yes, they are real. I get roses every week as a gift to myself and as a gift to my clients and I just love the energy that they hold and the fragrance that they emit and they remind me to be soft and go with the flow and yeah, I love them. I love them. Alyssa Scolari [03:31]: Yes, I'm loving them as I'm seeing in the background. And they really do radiate just serenity. My eye keeps drifting over to them and I'm like oh, they're so dreamy. Okay. So that was our rose corner. If you don't have roses, get some in your home. I apparently need to go out after this and buy some roses. So welcome. And I wanted to start out by asking you one of the things that I was saying right off the bat in the introduction is you have a master's degree in spiritual psychology? Donna Bond [04:06]: Yeah. With an emphasis in consciousness, health and healing from the University of Santa Monica. Alyssa Scolari [04:15]: So I actually did... I wasn't even aware that you could get a master's degree in spiritual psychology. Are those programs few and far between or is that something I've just completely missed the mark on? Donna Bond [04:30]: Well, the University of Santa Monica was delivering this master's for about 35 years. Believe it or not. Alyssa Scolari [04:40]: Wow. Donna Bond [04:40]: Yeah. And they actually are no longer delivering the actual master's program, but they have re-imagined their offering into something called soul centered living, which is terrific because it really makes the program available to a wider audience. You don't have to have any prerequisites or credentials to participate in the program. And the study of the program is you, right? You're the topic, you're the homework. It's a journey into yourself. And a lot of the people who attend the program don't go on to work in the field. Many of the graduates do. I have found my way into transformational coaching as a result of the program, but more often than not, people who participate in that program, they just show up in their life in a really different way. Alyssa Scolari [05:49]: Yeah. I love hearing you say that because that's everything that I would imagine that master's degree would be, is a deep dive into you essentially. Donna Bond [06:00]: Yeah. Yes. Alyssa Scolari [06:02]: Oh, man. I might be going back for another master's degree. That sounds phenomenal. Donna Bond [06:08]: Well, the beauty, I know you're in the Northeastern part of the world, the beauty of what they're doing now is they've taken the entire thing online, which it's certainly been amazing to sit in a room with nearly 200 people and have the depth of the experiences that we've all shared together. And being online is really cool because doctors who want to marry whole neck are incredible teachers. They are a spiritual masters of our time and being able to be face-to-face with them on Zoom all up close and personal is pretty magical and pretty special. So yeah, it's a miracle really that anyone around the globe now can do this, but truthfully, when I was there, people would come from Dubai for the weekend. Alyssa Scolari [07:12]: Wow. Donna Bond [07:14]: Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [07:15]: That is, oh, that's incredible. Now can you tell me how... So, can you give me a little bit of backstory on how you made that decision to go for your master's in spiritual psychology? Because as I understand it, you were doing something completely... You were on a completely different track in your life when things seemingly took a complete 180 for you. Donna Bond [07:39]: Yes. So I was in the world of hospitality for 28 years. I was a marketing executive working for the Ritz-Carlton at the time. And it all looked really good on the surface, Alyssa. It all looked really good on the surface, but deep down, I was really unhappy and I didn't know it at the time, but I was developing a frozen shoulder, which was like this gorgeous, outward manifestation where I was in my life because I knew I wasn't happy deep down, but I wasn't doing anything about it. Right? So this outward manifestation of stuckness showed up in a really big and prominent way. And I have always been a spiritual seeker. If you saw my office, you'd see hundreds of books here. I've read it all. I love it all. And so I had gone to see a psychic and literally crying to this psychic like I've got to find my purpose in life and the whole sob story. And she said to me, Donna, they're spelling it out for me. Spiritual psychology. And I said what in the hell is spiritual psychology? Alyssa Scolari [07:39]: What? Donna Bond [09:01]: Yes, literally. So she says, "Oh, there's three universities that teach a program in this." And one of them is the Center for Integral Studies, which is up in Northern California. She said there's also Sophia University, which is also, I think, based in Northern California. Now I think they have a campus in Costa Mesa. And she never got to tell me the name of the third university. So I went home, of course, and consulted the real Oracle. I Googled it. Alyssa Scolari [09:37]: Of course. Donna Bond [09:40]: And very quickly, right? And very quickly found my way to the University of Santa Monica. And I worked with this amazing admissions counselor. And it's so funny to think back, and it's not funny, but it's just incredible to think back at where my mindset was at that time in my life, how I saw the world at that time in my life, which was very practical and logical and really through a completely different lens. And I have this very long exchange with this admissions counselor trying to get every question answered and taking on what I was perceiving as being a burden of a master's program while I'm working a 60-hour a week job in this really intense high pressure corporate environment. And she finally said to me, "Hey Donna, why don't we do this, just for one week and see." And those were such magical words, right? It's like that, when I think about it, time stopped in that moment as I was being invited into making such an important decision in my life. Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [11:06]: Yeah. Right? That one weekend. And it's that feeling and I know so well and I can see all of the emotion in your face, but I know the listeners can't see this, but I can see it and I resonate so deeply with that feeling of like it's almost like it hits you and you're like oh, this is it. Is that like along the lines of what you were feeling? Donna Bond [11:35]: Yes and no. Truthfully at that time in my life, there was not one bone in this body. There is not one cell in this membrane that had a belief system, that there was anything else that could be possible for me in my life other than what I had. And where I had already achieved the status and the success that I had grown over nearly almost 30 years. It was like oh, I was earning a certain level of income and I had a certain level of status and a certain level of respect and prestige that I had earned coming up through the ranks in my career. And there was nothing in this body that thought that that would be possible to recreate a whole another career in my life at the age of 45, which was when this all started. So there was a whole, there was this call to do this, but truthfully I did not know why. I did not know. I did not know why there was nothing logical about it. Alyssa Scolari [12:49]: So it's almost like for the first 45 years of your life, you were walking around with a very myopic view on what your world was and nothing, you couldn't see beyond. You had essentially blinders to other possibilities in your world. And I really appreciate the fact that you are sharing this happened when I was 45 years old because I think that there are so many people out there. And I know that there are people who are listening that get to a point in their lives, I think much like you're describing where they're like well, here I am. This is my life. I can't see any other possibilities. Right? I've been working as a nurse for the last 20 years and this is what it is. And deep down, right, they're burying feelings of but there's more. There has to be more than this. And of course it comes out in physical ways. Right? And a lot of times what we do is we go oh, I'm getting old. I got a frozen shoulder. Yup. That's me. Right? I'm getting old. Instead of saying, right, what is my body telling me? So I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I didn't mean to interrupt, so continue. You can go on but I loved so much in what you just said that I'm like yes, it's so important for you to be sharing this because it's never too late. Donna Bond [14:22]: It's never too late. And I'm 53 now and my new career is taking off. Right? It's launching. I am having more fun than I have ever had in my life. And it's been a journey. So I enrolled myself in this program and ignored my frozen shoulder for the better part of a year until I quite literally couldn't lift my arm. And when I finally reconciled with what was going on with my shoulder and decided to actually address it, I had an experience where I was, I have to call it divine intervention because there's really no other way to call it. But I was on my way to the Ritz-Carlton Global Leadership Conference. I was on an airplane. My shoulder was stuck. I mean, it was in so much pain, visibly swollen from the neglect. And I'm going to a conference where I'm going to drink too much and I'm not going to sleep and I'm going to abuse my body even further. Alyssa Scolari [15:31]: Right. Donna Bond [15:31]: And I was reading a book called Finding Your Element by Ken Robinson. And I was really excited about this book because I've been looking for my element my whole life. Alyssa Scolari [15:46]: Yeah. That's the very thing you've been searching for, right? Donna Bond [15:52]: And I'm reading and he's talking about how we play it safe. And he's using all these metaphors and these analogies and he uses Mark Twain's metaphor, "20 years from now, you're going to be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than you by the things that you did do." So sail away from the safe harbor, throw off the battle lines, explore, dream, discover. I think I just twisted that around, but you get my drift. And so as I'm reading this, all of a sudden, I feel like there's this emotion that is bubbling up inside of me. And then there's another line that says "What lies behind us and what lie before us are tiny matters compared to what lie within us." And that's a Ralph Waldo Emerson. Alyssa Scolari [16:40]: One of my favorites. Donna Bond [16:41]: But now, I feel like this emotion has moved its way up into my chest. And then I get to the clincher, this little eight liner that is by the poet Elizabeth Appell called Risk. That poem is often attributed to Anais Nin, but she didn't actually write it. And then the day came when the risk to remain tight in the bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. And when I read that, Alyssa, my shoulder was the bud. My shoulder was that bud. And I just had this out of body experience as I was on this airplane suddenly having complete and utter clarity that I needed to leave my job. At this point still, there's not one bone in my body that thinks I'm going to be a coach, that even... This is not anywhere in my spirit, it's not in my radar, it's not in my consciousness. But I'm going to quit my job. And I just get this dose of clarity around this. And even though I don't have a clue or a plan, I am clear that this is what needs to happen. And so I go to this conference and an important part of the story that I didn't mention earlier was that as I'm evolving in this program, in spiritual psychology, I'm doing a lot of exploring of my consciousness and sort of testing out the laws of the universe. And I was doing an experiment where I was asking the universe to bring me an apple. And right before I left on this trip, I had sort of demanded the universe bring me an apple. Very random, no attachment to this whatsoever. I couldn't care less whether this happens or it doesn't happen. Alyssa Scolari [18:45]: Almost like you were testing the waters a little bit? Donna Bond [18:47]: Yes. Yes. So I had thrown this out there, right? So I had this experience on the plane, go through this conference. It's the very last night of this conference. And my name was called to the stage where I am the recipient of the Western Regional Marketing Achievement Award for the third consecutive year in a row. And as I'm walking back to my table with this award in my hand, I'm even more grounded in my knowing that I'm out. I'm done. I've had an amazing career. I'm so proud of all that I've done and all of the gifts that this has given me and even though I have no idea what's next, I know I'm done. I'm done here. Well, I sit down at my place setting and served before me is dessert. And it is this incredibly elaborate apple dessert with apple confit and green apple sorbet. And apple this and apple that. And because it was with the Ritz-Carlton, they don't miss a beat, there was a menu card. So there was no mistaking what this was that had just been set before me because the menu card is now describing in great detail this apple dessert. And so I sat there at that table and just let the tears roll down my face as I became aware in that moment of the part of me that is so much greater than anything that I have given myself credit for. Right? Than any of my belief systems or upbringing or conditioning or patterning that there is this other part of me that is absolutely indefinitely connected to the infinite universe and the intelligence that is everywhere. And it was like I collided with that. And it was fantastic. Alyssa Scolari [21:07]: I'm sure- Donna Bond [21:09]: And it changed everything. Alyssa Scolari [21:09]: ... that in itself felt like an outer body experience. Donna Bond [21:12]: Without question. Without question. Alyssa Scolari [21:14]: I mean, I have head to toe chills. When we're recording this, it's like the hottest day that we've had so far in summer over here in Pennsylvania. But I am covered in goosebumps from head to toe because that, it's beautiful. I don't have any other words that can do it justice. It's just, you sought out the universe and the universe said hey, I'm opening my arms to you. And I love that. So did you end up quitting your job? Donna Bond [21:47]: I ended up quitting my job. Yes. That happened in March. I actually resigned. Well, I actually ended up going out on a medical leave of absence and having shoulder surgery and through my healing journey with my shoulder, I got clear about well, what am I going to do next? Because I needed to earn an income, right? That was a piece of it for me. So I decided to become a marketing consultant. And I thought I would pitch the Ritz-Carlton on hiring me to train my replacement to take my role as the director of sales and marketing there. So I ended up resigning in October of 2014 and I worked as a marketing consultant for about a year and a half. And still there was nothing in me that really believed that I was going to be sitting in these sacred, intimate conversations one on one with people being given a sacred opportunity to help them solve problems in their life and live into their next level of potential. But the universe kind of tricked me into it. And that's true. Alyssa Scolari [23:16]: Yeah. So it's almost... Right. So it's almost like you had no idea where all of this was taking you. You just knew it was time to change, but you were going with it, right? You were surrendering to wherever it was that you were being led to. Donna Bond [23:34]: Yes. Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [23:36]: Which is a hard thing to do. Let's not gloss over that because just being able to surrender itself, it's very hard to do. Donna Bond [23:46]: It's really hard. And then, I think first of all, I guess I have to say that I could not have done this without the support that I had through this master's program at the University of Santa Monica. And really being wrapped in this container of not only loving, but this belief in me when I couldn't believe in myself. Right? There was like this template that was being held for what was possible. And that's why I love coaching so much. Right? Is because we get that partnership and you've got a partner who is believing in you when all else fails. Alyssa Scolari [24:40]: Yes, yes. Donna Bond [24:43]: Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [24:43]: I mean, I actually have a coach that I work with and that's exactly what it is. It's at the end of the day knowing there's somebody there who's still going to wrap you in safety and comfort and support along this journey. Donna Bond [25:01]: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:25:02] so there's a lot of surrender They are. They are. And I definitely went through an undoing because my whole life was about my job and who I was at my job and who I was was my job. So there was a lot of identity crisis. There was a lot of ego death, right? Of just unraveling all of that. And this all happened within the context of my marriage and, which is still alive and healthy and beautiful and supportive and all of those amazing things, which is whole other story and a whole other interview. Truly because that's a whole other book. Alyssa Scolari [25:53]: Yes. Donna Bond [25:55]: I said yes to one thing at a time. And I guess for the people who are listening, that's a really helpful way when we're being asked to surrender. It's like you don't have to surrender to everything all at once, you just have to surrender what's in front of you right now. And that is basically what I did. It's like I took one little step out of my comfort zone. I took one little step in the direction of kind of where I wanted to go and then I let the universe fill in the blanks. And once I took that one little step, then the next step got revealed. The next step didn't get revealed till I was willing to take that first step. Right? So there's this give and take with the universe that I think is so important that we can't opt out. Right? We got to stay in the game. We have to participate in our own forward motion. We can make a move and then the universe is going to meet us there and we can make another move and the universe is going to meet us there. But the universe isn't going to meet us until make the first. Alyssa Scolari [27:15]: Yes. It's almost a mutual respect. Right? It's a mutual trust that's forming. I think the way you're describing it, it's very, very beautiful and more accurate than what I've seen it described. Or as I think a lot of people think that it's like well, if I ask for it, it's all mine. Right? And that's where I think things like manifestation sort of get taken... They take off, right? People take them to unrealistic heights because it doesn't work like that. Right? You don't sit down and write on a piece of paper I want a Mercedes Benz and a $6 million home and a $58 million yacht. Donna Bond [27:57]: And then you go sit on the couch. Alyssa Scolari [27:59]: Yes. Yes, exactly. So the way you're describing it as is very, very beautiful. Donna Bond [28:08]: Thank you. Yeah. So that's what I did. It was one step at a time. And I was in the, my master's is in spiritual psychology with an emphasis in consciousness, health and healing. And when I was going through the consciousness, health and healing part of the program, we had to do a service project that was like donating. I can't remember the number exactly. It's like 56 hours of our time in service. And I had come through a mentality where time is money. Right? You don't do anything unless you're getting paid for it. So this was a really big opening for me in what is service? What does service mean and what does it mean to have a service consciousness? Right? And I think people sometimes mix up the difference between service and servitude, right? We are making ourselves available to something and we're doing that from a place of wholeness, from a place of giving, but not from a place of depleting ourselves or betraying ourselves. Even that word comes word forward fo me. Alyssa Scolari [29:31]: Yes. Donna Bond [29:32]: So my service project that I had birthed in my mind was that I was going to assist women who had small businesses. Actually a lot of coaches and healers and facilitators, I was going to assist them with growing their business and teaching them a little bit about marketing and giving them some more self-confidence. And this was the idea that I had. And one afternoon sitting around a pool at the Ohio Valley and Spa, I was with one of my girlfriends who was also in this program with me. And she said, well, can I be your first person? Right? Can I be the first person that you give these service hours to? And I said absolutely. It would be my honor to support you. I would love that. Well, when I turned in this project to the University of Santa Monica, it got denied that my service project was not going to fulfill the requirement or what I needed to do for my master's. However, I had already made this commitment, right, to this woman that I would assist her. And so I'm a woman of my word, right? I really operate with a good amount of integrity. So I basically said to myself, well, even though I had to now still find something else to meet this 56-hour requirement, I'm going to help her. I'm going to still help this woman. And that's where the magic happens. Because when I sat down with her and got myself out of the way, it opened myself to be a channel for the divine and the universe was working through me in a way that was extraordinary and magical and beautiful and loving and compassionate and accepting and extraordinary on all of these incredible levels. And that is how I was invited into gifts that I had that really were laying dormant within me. And I had to put myself into a position that maybe I wouldn't have normally put myself in to be able to discover those gifts. Alyssa Scolari [32:12]: Yeah. As you're sharing your story, I can't help but think to myself what a magical transformation. It's been eight years, right? Donna Bond [32:22]: Eight years. Alyssa Scolari [32:23]: What a magical transformation. Eight years, even though it may seem like a long time, it's so quick, especially for such a drastic change in essentially the way you view the world around you. It's like a rebirth. It's like being reborn and it's powerful. Eight years. Eight years. Donna Bond [32:49]: Well, it's so funny that you're saying this because yesterday I was speaking with somebody and we were talking about the significance of a seven-year cycle. And so I had hung out a shingle, right, as a marketing consultant initially upon resigning my position. And I did that for a year. And on June 30th, a year into that, I made the decision to become a full time professional coach. And that meant saying no to any marketing gigs that might be coming my way. And so I have just completed that seven year cycle of being a full-time professional coach. And just as a side note, because we love the universe and it's always inviting us to learn and grow, right after I made this commitment. Right? Like I'm a full time professional coach now. It's my one and only. That's what I'm doing. Didn't I get a call for a big fat job. Alyssa Scolari [34:01]: Oh, of course. Of course. Donna Bond [34:01]: In marketing. Big fat job. Alyssa Scolari [34:04]: Because you were universe being, if it weren't testing you. Of course. Donna Bond [34:11]: Yeah. So I said no and it was so ama... And listen, make no mistake, I needed the money. Let's be clear. But I said no and that was fuel for the universe to help me align with where I was. And it all started there. Alyssa Scolari [34:40]: It's incredible. I love hearing these things because it's like it gives me life because there's so much power to this. There's so much strength and right. Touching on, even just saying like make no mistake, I needed the money, right? And I also think that's something so many of us say. In fact, I found myself saying that last night, right? I am feeling at a place in my life where I feel very called to slow down and I'm getting signs like the universe was just hitting me over the head with signs that I need to slow down. And of course, I'm so good at finding all reasons to not slow down. And I also don't want to gloss over how difficult that is for so many people to go, yes, I need the money. Yes, I have a family to provide for. Yes, I need X. Yes, I can't do this because of X, Y, Z, whatever. To stop, to turn all that off and to just say no, no, because this doesn't feel right for me. That is incredible. I just give you all of the accolades for being able to do that. Donna Bond [35:57]: Ca I share something about what you're saying? Alyssa Scolari [35:59]: Please. Donna Bond [36:00]: Coming from somebody who had a regular direct deposit paycheck every two weeks, right, for 28 years, there was a lot of mindset shifts that really needed to take place as I became an entrepreneur and became responsible for generating my own income. I live in Southern California, right? It's not cheap here. Alyssa Scolari [36:23]: Right. Exactly. Donna Bond [36:24]: So one of the things that I became aware of and one of the things that is really in my teachings, in my book, Original Wisdom: Harness The Power of The Authentic You is about energy and that energy of doing, the energy of pushing and the striving and the going and the foreseen and the doing, that is an energy of contraction. It's an energy of compression. It's an energy to heavier denser energy. And when we're in that energy, it's harder to let things come into our experience. So it became very present in my consciousness that when I am feeling the energy of lightness and freedom and joy, that is an energy that is more open and more expansive. That is an energy of allowing, that is energy of receiving. And so I began to do this experiment with myself where I would take a Tuesday, right? In the middle of the week, in the middle of the month, I would take a Tuesday and I would just go play. It didn't matter. Let's be clear. I have 101,000 things at my desk that could and should be done, but I would take a Tuesday and I'd find a girlfriend and I would go goof off. And I would do this intentionally because I wanted to shift the energy. And in so doing invariably, I would get a call on my way home from somebody who's looking to start a six month coaching journey or somebody who was inviting me onto their podcast or somebody who needs me to come into their corporation and consult. It never fails. Alyssa Scolari [38:29]: Never fails. You're so right. Donna Bond [38:33]: So I just, I love to break ourselves out of the monotony of physical world reality and how we get trapped in our own BS. Right? There is always a different way and we have the power and the choice to invite ourselves into that. Alyssa Scolari [38:58]: Yes we do. And it's not easy, but it's so worth it. I think the other question that I wanted to ask you and I'll ask you this before I also ask where folks can find you and things like that, but is it safe to say that this process can also be a bit, not cyclical, but I don't find, at least for me, and maybe it's different for you that it's as easy as once you enter into the path of letting the universe guide you and saying no and saying yes and doing what feels right and creating more space for more play, more positive energy, you still can get stuck. Because you've spent so many years of your life doing things one way and then sometimes it can be tough. Right? Is that the case for you where you do have moments where you're like, oh, I can sense there's some bad energy. I need to kind of get things right again. It's not just sort of like, well, everything's rainbows and puppies and butterflies now that I've made this decision, right? Donna Bond [40:14]: Alyssa, are you talking about being human? Alyssa Scolari [40:19]: I might be. I might be. Donna Bond [40:21]: Yeah. Well, I think that's what we're talking about. And yes, right? So here's how I see it. We want everything to be linear because that's how we think the world works in our logical left brain- Alyssa Scolari [40:38]: Right. That's what makes sense in our brains. Donna Bond [40:39]: ... and our [crosstalk 00:40:39] Right? Alyssa Scolari [40:38]: Yes. Donna Bond [40:38]: We want everything to have a clear beginning and a clear end. We want us to go in a straight line. We want to know all the steps and the return on the investment and how long it's going to take. But the truth is we live in an ever expanding universe and I believe that all growth and transformation and all of the forward motion of this ever expanding universe happens in a spiral. So every time we make a lap around the spiral, we go out a little bit more and we go up a little bit more. Right? So then we take another lap and we go out and we go up. Then we make another lap and we go out and we go up. And what happens, where I see it, is there's like little sticky patches along the spiral. Right? And then you just made another lap. And you've been here before, you might have a little bit of a different perspective and there's still something for you to learn. Alyssa Scolari [41:47]: Yes. Donna Bond [41:48]: So it's like you have a choice right there to open yourself and to be able to see what is your [inaudible 00:41:58] What can I learn from this? How might I grow from this experience, person, circumstance, trauma, right? Whatever it is. Or are we going to shut ourselves down, lock in, close up. Right? And we hop into that story as well. So I think what you're saying is very, very real. I know that as long as we are in these human bodies, on this human adventure, we will continue to have those sticky places along the spiral. And transformation is about changing our relationship to something. And so if we can begin to change our relationship to how we relate to ourselves and how we relate to the world when we're going through a difficult period, that right there can bestow many gifts. Alyssa Scolari [43:08]: Yeah. You're absolutely right. And I also have to say as somebody who's a very visual person, I am deeply appreciative of that visual that you provided because that is exactly what I was trying to say and that is exactly how it feels. And I also think that it's very, very important to point that out because it really is a lifelong process. Donna Bond [43:33]: It is a lifelong process. Alyssa Scolari [43:37]: So now, what we heard from you today, is that just a snippet of all the things that can be found in your book because your book, it's a memoir, correct? Donna Bond [43:49]: Yes. It's a teaching memoir. Alyssa Scolari [43:51]: Well, yes. And because it also has a lot of nuggets of wisdom in there about ways to move through this process and for people to be able to start their own journey. Donna Bond [44:05]: It is definitely my journey and I did not set out to write a book. I actually set out to create a workshop, which I did. And over time, I wanted more stories that could support the teaching point that I was trying to make in my workshop. And before I realized it, I had so many stories that what I was describing literally was all of my experiences on my own transformational journey. And a little bit of rearranging with how the workshop went and it was suddenly like, oh, this is like my whole journey from beginning to end and how it all happened. And so in each chapter, there's all sorts of fun, synchronistic serendipity. I don't really believe in coincidence. I believe that everything happens for a reason. And that, of course there is a lot of deeper meaning to our life and our existence. And so I've got all of those fun nuggets in there. And I offer an opportunity for transformation at the end of every chapter. So this is really inviting the reader to have their own experience with whatever the teaching point is. And so I give you the chance to engage with life, right? To take what you've learned and really apply it in your life in some way because that's really the only way that we learn. And that's the beauty of the University of Santa Monica and the programs that they deliver there is they are experiential learning. And this masters is not just something that wound up in my head, right? It's in my body. I embody this work because I lived it, because I took all of what they were teaching and I applied it to my real life in a very, very real way. And I got the feedback from life, from the universe. So I offer these opportunities for transformation, as well as something that I call a sacred truth activation. And these sacred truth activations are a series of affirmations designed to invigorate your spirit, to really call upon that authentic power that you have inside of you that is your original wisdom, right? My definition of original wisdom is the inherent intelligence in all beings that is rooted in unconditional love. Alyssa Scolari [46:59]: I love that. That definition itself feels like a warm hug to me. Donna Bond [47:04]: Yeah. Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [47:07]: I love it. I love it. So if people would like to work with you, purchase your book, where can people find you and where's the best place to be able to purchase your book? Is it just on Amazon or is it in other bookstores as well? Donna Bond [47:23]: It's everywhere. Alyssa Scolari [47:24]: [crosstalk 00:47:24] supporting small businesses. Donna Bond [47:26]: Yeah, thank you. It's everywhere. And you can go to donnabond.com/podcast and I have a gift for your listeners, four ways to get unstuck, which actually talks about the spiral and sort of what happens at each of the stages on the spiral. So if that is of interest and if they would like a signed copy of my book, they can get it there. And of course, it's available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble and all of the book places in the world. Alyssa Scolari [48:01]: Oh, that was fantastic. Thank you so much. So to the listeners, all of this will be included in the show notes. And I think the last thing I want to say is I know that you have just said that there are no coin... Right? You don't believe in coincidences and I do not either. And I have found that as somebody who... I started this podcast a year ago and this podcast is very much about... It's about interviewing other people and it's about learning about trauma and healing and all of the things that go along with that. But I'm also very, very open and transparent with the listeners and folks about my own journey to recovery from complex PTSD and an eating disorder. And looking at the head space I was in last night, which was not a very good one to say the least, I am always so surprised that when I hop on for an interview, that topic and the conversation always sort of takes me exactly where I need to be for a shift, for a message, for whatever needs to happen within myself. I'm always learning that through conversations exactly like the one that you and I are having. So thank you so much for- Donna Bond [48:01]: Me too. Alyssa Scolari [49:26]: ... teaching. Yeah. Donna Bond [49:27]: Me too. Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [49:29]: It's a beautiful thing. It really is. So I'm really, really grateful for your vulnerability, for the realism that you share and what this process and journey is like because it's not all rainbows and puppies and butterflies. It's scary and it's beautiful and terrifying all at the same time. And still even knowing all of that, once you've started the journey, you can never go back and you wouldn't have it any other way. So thank you so much. To the listeners, again, you will find everything you need in the show notes to learn more about Donna, to check her out, to read her book. I really appreciate your time today. Donna Bond [50:21]: Alyssa, thank you. It's really been my honor to be here with you. Thank you. Alyssa Scolari [50:26]: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @LightAfterTrauma and on Twitter, it is @LightAfterPod. Lastly, please head over to at patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support. [singing]

On this week's episode we welcome back our good friend, Denise R. Wolf MA, ATR-BC, ATCS, LPC along with our brand new guest, author Lynn Langan. Alyssa, Denise, and Lynn are passionate about helping adolescents and use this episode to dive into the struggles and unique challenges facing our youth today. In Lynn Langan's brand new book, Duke & The Lonely Boy, she takes readers inside the world of our adolescents and emphasizes the importance of making kids feel seen and heard. Whether you are an adolescent, a young adult, a teacher, a therapist, or a parent, this discussion as well as Lynn's book will help you to better understand how to navigate the world of our adolescents.  Light After Trauma Website Support the Podcast   Purchase Lynn's Book Learn More About Denise Wolf Transcript:   Alyssa Scolari [00:09]: Happy, happy Tuesday. Welcome back to another fun episode of Light After Trauma. It kind of feels like an oxymoron, doesn't it, to be like, "Oh yeah, this is another fun episode for a trauma-focused podcast," but I hope that if y'all have learned anything from me by now, it's that I think that the recovery process and the trauma process just isn't really possible without some humor. I am a really big fan of humor therapy, which is not officially a thing, but it's my thing because I believe if we don't laugh about some things, we'll cry about everything. We have with us two special guests today. One of them is a very familiar face on the podcast. We have got Denise Wolf back with us today, which is so exciting. She has done I believe two episodes already at this point, so this is her third episode on the podcast. We just need her to keep coming back because she's amazing. Denise has done some episodes. I think the one episode that she did with just me was on art therapy, and then the other one we did talking about law enforcement and the whole defunding the police versus backing the blue. So, definitely go and check out those episodes if you have not listened already, because Denise is really an incredible person and has a lot of awesome things to say. Plus, she's really funny as hell. I'm just going to reintroduce her in case she is new and you a new listener here on the podcast. Denise R. Wolf has so many letters after her last name, which just is a testament to how incredible she is. Denise R. Wolf is the Owner and Practitioner Therapist of Mangata Services as well as an adjunct faculty member at Drexel and Villanova Universities. Denise is a Licensed Professional Counselor, as well as a Registered Board Certified and an Art Therapy Certified Supervisor through the Art Therapy Credentials Board. For over 20 years, Denise has been practicing as a therapist primarily treating adolescents and adults with histories of complex interpersonal trauma. She works as a consultant for many Philadelphia organizations, including the Philadelphia Art Museum, providing clinical supervision and programming related to trauma informed care. Denise has presented at city, state, national, and international conferences in the areas of trauma informed care, trauma and neuro biology, pedagogy, clinical supervision. She has several articles published in peer review journals, and has contributed chapters to Seminole texts in her clinical work. Actually as I was reading that, I think you might have even done... Actually, I think the episode where we talked about art therapy with Denise, I think that one was a two person episode as well. We just love doing two person episodes with Denise, because yes, I'm pretty sure we had somebody else on that podcast as well. Regardless, go check those episodes out because they're awesome. Then I also want to highlight our other very special guest today, who is Lynn Langan. Lynn is brand new to the podcast, but I am really excited to have her on because we are talking all about adolescents, teenagers, whatever word you might have for them. I'm sure that some people have some choice words for teenagers, but I happen to absolutely love working with teenagers. As you heard, Denise with teenagers, I work with teenagers and adolescents, and kids that are young adults. That's really my wheelhouse. Lynn Langan is an author who just had a book come out that we are really going to dive in today, because it's really all about kind of diving into the adolescent brain. Lynn lives in Pennsylvania, and her love for writing developed after she finally learned how to read in the fourth grade, after being diagnosed with a learning disability. She fell in love with the characters crafted by the wonderful Judy Blume, and found a great escape into the world of fiction where everything seemed to be possible from big problems to small. She went on to graduate from Kutztown University, with a BA in professional writing, and then spent three glorious years teaching at an at risk youth high school just outside of Philadelphia. There, she was inspired to write her young adult novel, which is After You Were Gone, which is available. Her newest book is called Duke and the Lonely Boy, and that came out in August. That is published by Black Rose Writing. We are here today to talk about it. I cannot wait. Hello, Denise, Lynn. Welcome. Lynn Langan [05:34]: Hello. Denise Wolf [05:34]: Hello. Lynn Langan [05:35]: Thanks for having us. Alyssa Scolari [05:37]: I'm so happy you're here. I have to admit, I feel like I'm missing the party over there because you're both together recording this. I'm like I should be there. I should be over there with a glass of wine or something. Lynn Langan [05:49]: Absolutely. Denise Wolf [05:51]: [crosstalk 00:05:51]. Alyssa Scolari [05:54]: I'm so glad you both are here. As I was telling the listeners, Denise, one of the many things that I think are just incredible about you is your versatility and your ability to just kick absolute ass in so many different realms in the mental health field, and I love it. We've gone in depth about art therapy. We've gone in depth about the legal system. And now here we are today turning it to adolescence, which is a topic we could talk about forever, and something that I think all three of us are very passionate about. Thanks for coming back again. Denise Wolf [06:34]: Thanks so much for having me again. Alyssa Scolari [06:37]: Of course. It's such a pleasure. Lynn, it is such a pleasure to meet you. Talk to me about your journey to becoming a writer, because if I understand correctly, this isn't is your first book. You've had a book out before? Lynn Langan [06:55]: That is correct. Not published though. It's been for sale, but this is the first book that was sold for me. I went to college for writing, and then when you get out of college that's not really how you're going to make money apparently. I was doing newspapers and short story stuff, so probably when I was around 27 I was like, "You know what, I really want to write a book. I want to do this." So I spent a lot of time digging in and learning how to do this actually, because college can only teach you so much. But when you get out into the real world, you have to continue practicing and learning, and growing in your field of whatever you're doing. SCBWI conferences, which is just a whole chapter of adolescent writers from probably picture books all the way up to 18 years old, so it's a whole bunch of authors. They're getting together and to these conferences, and learning, and figuring out how to write an entire book, and query it, and all the steps that go along with it. It's been an incredibly long and hard journey, but worth it. Definitely worth it. Alyssa Scolari [08:12]: Yeah, I think that's very important that you said that because the life of a writer is not an easy one. Lynn Langan [08:18]: No. No, it's not. Alyssa Scolari [08:21]: I think it's really important to shed light on that because I think a lot of people have an idea of what it looks like. "I want to be a writer. I want to be a writer," but then putting that into practice, in theory it seems like a life of luxury. I write whenever I want. I sip my coffee. Pinky up. As I type of the computer while the birds are chirping outside. It's like [crosstalk 00:08:46]- Lynn Langan [08:45]: No. And the words are so easy. They're right there and I'm just plucking them out of the air. That is absolutely not the case. It's a lot of discipline because you work a full-time job. There's no one yelling at you to go to the computer to write this book. The future is unknown if it ever see the light of day. That's kind of where I grew my peace from, was that I'm doing this thing because this thing, this art, is what makes me me. It's my joy and my happiness, even there's struggle along the way. If I wasn't doing it, then I don't think I'd be complete. It is a lot of discipline. It's a lot of just sitting down and looking at the blank computer screen back at me like, "Come on. Put some words down." Alyssa Scolari [09:33]: Any second now. Lynn Langan [09:34]: Any second now, this big idea's going to come to me. That's not true. Alyssa Scolari [09:39]: It's so tough. It's so tough. Lynn Langan [09:42]: Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [09:43]: My next question, and this is a question I have for both of you, tell me why the love for adolescence, because all three of us share a big passion for the kiddos in this world. Why? It doesn't matter whoever can go first, but I'm very curious as to well adolescents are such a passion. At least in my experience, I always knew that I wanted to work with kids. Everybody would tell me, even my professors in college would be like, "No, you don't. No, you don't. No, you don't." In grad school, "What do you want to do?" "I want to work with kids." "No, you don't." Everybody kept trying to talk me out of working with kids. It's very unpopular. So tell me for each of you why it's so important to you. Denise Wolf [10:32]: I'll start. Part of it too, Alyssa, like I was told the same thing, "You don't want to do that." Tell me I don't want something or I can't do something, and I am going to do it 1,000% times over and everything on fire in my path. Alyssa Scolari [10:48]: Yes. Yes. Denise Wolf [10:48]: That's part of it, but it's also a connection to adolescence and that inner 15 year old kid that still lives in my heart that says, "Fuck you. I can do this. Get out of my way." That's part of it, I'm oppositional, and that connects with adolescence. Part of it is that I had a troubled adolescence, you could say. I'll stop there. Some of it I feel like is not quite payback. I don't have the right word, but making repairs for some of the errors that I made along the way. Part of it is because I can. Because I can and because a lot of people can or don't want to. I guess there's a fourth part that adolescents are so exciting from a neuro developmental perspective. It is like the Fourth of July in their brains. It was such a great time of change and shifting, and possibilities. Lynn Langan [11:46]: Discovery. Denise Wolf [11:46]: And discovery, yeah. It's really exciting. For all of those reasons. Lynn Langan [11:53]: Yeah, and I would go into that also for all those things, and say that I want to be an advocate because I remember my youth not being taken seriously because we're young, and our voices don't matter. That's not true. We are young... Well, we are not now, but we were young and they are young, and they see things and make connections in ways that if you stop and listen to them it makes sense. We're missing some of that youthful view in the way they see the world. As we get older, I think we get more narrow in our views and also take less chances where when you're young you kind of live and learn by your mistakes. I want them to know that that's okay. It's exactly how you're supposed to learn. The adults that are walking around judging you or saying what you're doing is wrong or whatever, it's not. It's your time to grow into a person. I want to be there to foster that. Authentically, I want to make sure that's in my work that they have opinions that matter, and the way they see the world matters, and they have a place for that. Alyssa Scolari [13:06]: Yeah. Lynn Langan [13:06]: Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [13:07]: Absolutely. Have either of you seen the Twilight saga, the movies? Lynn Langan [13:13]: Yes. Denise Wolf [13:14]: Yes. [crosstalk 00:13:14]. Alyssa Scolari [13:15]: I guess let's take it to the fourth one, Breaking Dawn Part Two. Lynn Langan [13:21]: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, part two. Alyssa Scolari [13:23]: I know, I'm going here, right? Lynn Langan [13:25]: Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [13:26]: Full disclosure, I just finished watching that series again last week so it's fresh on my mind. But, this is kind of how I see adolescents and this is what I love so much about them. Remember the part in Breaking Dawn Part Two where Bella becomes a vampire and everything in the world is new to her, and her senses are heightened, and she can smell things, and run at a pace she's never been able to run before, and her skin, she's in a different body, she has a thirst for things she never thirsted before. She just feels like all of these things, like sensory overload. I feel like that's what it can be like working with adolescents. The world is just new to them. They're in bodies that they're not super familiar with. Things are explosive and exciting. Lynn Langan [14:23]: Yes. Alyssa Scolari [14:24]: I love it. I feel like that's what it's like to work with kids sometimes. That's what it's like to be an adolescent sometimes. Lynn Langan [14:31]: Absolutely. Denise Wolf [14:31]: Yep. Lynn Langan [14:32]: Yeah, you've got these thoughts and everything is brand new. Everything. Your world is so small. You don't realize how big the world is until you become an adult and you start living in it. The adolescent brain, the picture that they see is very tiny and then it makes the things that they're experiencing seem so heavy. That's another thing to work with the adolescents is cool, because you can be the person that says, "Calm down. You don't know what you're talking about." Or you could be the person that says, "Sit down. Let me talk to you. Let's talk about this. Let's have a real conversation about it." This isn't the end of the world. This is just the beginning. Denise Wolf [15:09]: Yep, and it feels gigantic and soul-crushing. Lynn Langan [15:13]: Right, because it is for you. Denise Wolf [15:14]: Right. Because your life is only yea long, and this is taking up such a big part of it. Lynn Langan [15:19]: Right, yeah. Denise Wolf [15:20]: Which is cool and exciting, and to be there and to validate it and celebrate it. Lynn Langan [15:24]: Right, absolutely. Alyssa Scolari [15:26]: Yeah, to validate it and to celebrate it, especially because so many kids get shut down. Denise Wolf [15:33]: Oh, gosh. Lynn Langan [15:33]: Yes. Alyssa Scolari [15:35]: The amount of times... Like I was saying before we started recording, the amount of times that adults say to children, "You don't know how easy you have it. What do you know? You're just a kid." I'm like I actually think they know a lot more than we know as adults. Lynn Langan [15:57]: Yes, absolutely. Denise Wolf [15:59]: Yes. Alyssa Scolari [16:00]: They're smart as hell. Lynn Langan [16:01]: They're smart, yes. And they just need a platform for themselves to be able to... That's what's so critical too, because if that age if you have that one adult that's shoving you down and you're influenced by that, your whole trajectory of your life could be changed just by some adult making some offhanded comment to you. I see that a lot. I think we see that a lot too, probably all three of us, because everybody works with kids, or has worked with the kids. You have one person that doesn't validate, and then you get in your head and you can't put it down. Alyssa Scolari [16:37]: Yeah. Lynn Langan [16:38]: Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [16:39]: Absolutely. I'm sure we've been those kids. I know I for sure was that kid who really felt like... I felt like as a kid I was always too much. My emotions were always too big for somebody. It was always like "Calm down. Stop crying. Why are you crying about this? You have to get over it. You have to move on with your life." I see kids in my office who come in with those same big emotions, and those same big feelings, and I think about how they suffer so much less simply because another adult is able to say, "Aw man, of course you feel that way." Lynn Langan [17:20]: Right. Alyssa Scolari [17:20]: It makes all the difference, doesn't it? Denise Wolf [17:23]: Yeah. Lynn Langan [17:23]: It really does. "I see you." That's what you're saying, "I see you. You exist. Everything you feel exists. It's real. It's here." Don't bury that down because it's making other people feel uncomfortable it. I think a lot of kids get their voice shut off because of that. No one's validating them or they can crawl inside their head and just be quiet. [crosstalk 00:17:45]- Alyssa Scolari [17:46]: 1,000%. [crosstalk 00:17:46] 1,000%. Lynn Langan [17:48]: Yeah, and it's sad. I don't want to see that for anybody. I think it's good to think of it in terms like that. It could just feel like you have a breakup with your boyfriend or girlfriend. Yes, as an adult you're like, "Get over it. You're going to get hurt 1,000 times." Well guess what, this is the first time I'm being hurt and everything you're saying to me is how I'm going to model my life from this point on. This is how I'm going to deal with things that come up in my life because you told me to calm down, or didn't see, or didn't hear me. I think that's good to give kids voices. Denise Wolf [18:23]: Yep. Alyssa Scolari [18:24]: Absolutely. It makes them feel human. I almost feel like we dehumanize kids, and we don't see them as having the same kind of complex feelings and emotions that adults have. There's always "I'm the adult and you're the kid. This doesn't concern you." It's like if we could shift that. Your kid is an independent human with independent thoughts and feelings, and viewpoints of the world. If we could shift from "You're just a kid. What the fuck do you know?" To "Hey, tell me how you view that," it would make such a big difference in the lives of adolescents I think. Lynn Langan [19:16]: Absolutely. When people say, "Oh, well you don't know how good you have it," I look at kids and I'm like, "Man, you don't know how bad you have it." Because you have to be plugged in to this social media, to this... You're always plugged in and you don't get a break from that ever. Ever. I look at my nieces and nephews and I'm just like, "What would it be like if you could just put that phone down?" I know you can't because you feel like you have to be involved in that, but it's just crazy. You don't ever have a safe spot. When we were kids, you can get away from school or all of that, and just go geek in your room and do whatever you want. But not these kids. They're just sitting there taking selfies 24/7 and feeling like they have to, and people are judging them for that, and they're not looking at what are the consequences of that? What does that really feel like to be plugged in 24/7 and never getting a break? Denise Wolf [20:13]: They don't know because they haven't had a different experience. Lynn Langan [20:15]: Right, yeah it's very disheartening when adults judge the kids. They're like, "Oh, you don't know what it's like. I walked up to school on a hill and back again on a hill." No, these kids are going through it. There's a lot of pressures on them. New things that they're coming against. There's just so much for them I feel. Denise Wolf [20:37]: Yep. I think part of the reason we collectively adopt, dismiss and minimize adolescents is because they don't want to remember their own eps because they're growing pains. Growing pains, they're emotional and physical. They shut them down, "Be quiet. Get over it. Calm down," like being on an airplane when there's a crying baby and somebody's like, "Shut that baby up." My response is, "Oh, you were born a full grown adult asshole? You were never a baby?" People want to forget or deny their adolescence. Lynn Langan [21:14]: Right, absolutely. Denise Wolf [21:16]: But we don't. That's why we're amazing. Lynn Langan [21:18]: Right. Alyssa Scolari [21:20]: No, that's right. That's why we're fucking amazing at what we do, because we understand the magic that lives in adolescence. I love it. I love it. Tell me, Lynn, where was the inspiration for this book? I'll let you answer that question before I drill you with five more questions. Lynn Langan [21:47]: The idea of we indirectly impact people versus directly impact people has always been fascinating to me, because Denise and I worked at Carson Valley Children's Aid, which is a residential facility for troubled youth. We had a lot of Philadelphian children who came out to our school that were bused in. Alyssa Scolari [22:08]: Is that how the two of you met? Lynn Langan [22:09]: Yes. Denise Wolf [22:10]: Yep. Alyssa Scolari [22:10]: That's awesome. Lynn Langan [22:12]: This one day the guidance counselor came out said, "Okay, I want you to give out a soft pretzel to a student that you think is deserving." We're teachers. We're like a million miles... You just take the ticket and you're like, okay whatever. So, I gave it to this student who was very short, very quiet, very closed off. She didn't like to talk at all. I walked up to her and I said, "Here you go." She started crying. I was like, "What's going on?" She was like, "I didn't think you knew who I was." I'm like, "I'm your teacher for a long time. Of course I know who you are." She was like, "I just didn't think you saw me." From that point on I was like, wow the littlest things that we do really do make a difference sometimes. You don't know. You don't know what that thing is going to be. Then that kind of just fascinated me like how many other things have I done to people that changed their perspective or vice versa. That whole seed was planted in me that I wanted to write this book where you think you know, but you don't know. You don't know what's going on in that person's life. What does that really look like, and how would that really spawn out into a novel? How could I get that across? That's kind of where I started playing with Duke and the Lonely Boy, because they both have these ideas about each other, but they don't really know each other at all. Alyssa Scolari [23:45]: Yeah. Yeah, it seems like... Again, I'm still reading this, but from all that I've gathered from the book so far, it seems like that is the moral... One of the many morals of the story is that you truly just don't know. What you did, is you magically crafted two characters who couldn't be further apart from one another. Without giving too much away, can you say a little bit more about who Duke and the Lonely Boy are? I just love their story right from the get go. Lynn Langan [24:19]: Yeah. It seems stereotypical, but it's not, I promise. Duke is the popular boy, and he's the All-Star football player, and he's got a very bright future ahead of him, but he's struggling in math. So, something very simple. The coach gets him this tutor, Tommy, who is just this outcast, but not in the stereotypical form. He's just quiet and nobody really knows his existence in this school or the story. They meet up and that's how the story begins, but it's told obviously through two perspectives. The first half of the book you're really getting Tommy's perspective as the little person and his story of what's going on. You're seeing him through Duke's eyes as a teenager. I think it's unpacking that for Tommy. Duke's got his own struggles going on, which Tommy kind of looks at like, "What's up? You can't do math, but you got everything else going for you." The story too jumps around in time, which kind of reminds me of therapy work, where it's not like you sit down with the client the first time and tell their entire history. You're working through their story kind of like event by event, and it's not sequential. So we as therapists have to be mindful that we don't make assumptions from go because I think for me one of the big takeaways is when you know, you know, and to remember that you don't. Duke and Tommy have these really complex stories, and have this sort of initial encounter where they think they know each other. Then throughout this jumping in time, back and forth in time and these crossovers of their interactions in their own personal stories, your perspective and understanding and empathy really shifts. Alyssa Scolari [26:18]: Yeah, absolutely. You know what also I love is that you're breaking this stereotype. If a high schooler were to pick up this book and read it, whether that high schooler is the football star in the school, the popular one, or more of the loner, you can still learn something. I love that this breaks the stereotype, because I think a lot of people feel like the kids who are loners are the only kids who have stuff going on. Like "Oh, they've got issues." I can't tell you how many times I have heard other kids be like, "Oh yeah, there's the loner. That's the kid that's going to shoot up the school," and say dumb shit like that that kids say. But you als don't know how much is going on behind the football stars, the basketball stars, the most popular girl. I like that you break that stereotype as well. Lynn Langan [27:24]: I wanted the reader to be able to identify with real characters. These are not those heavy issues in there, but with... I'm not sure if [inaudible 00:27:36] that for you is the right [inaudible 00:27:38]. I feel like the reader deserves that. Alyssa Scolari [27:42]: That it's like there are heavy issues in there. Lynn Langan [27:44]: Yeah, that there's heavy [crosstalk 00:27:45]. Alyssa Scolari [27:45]: Some of its tough. Lynn Langan [27:46]: Yeah, some of its tough, and it's real and maybe you could see yourself in some of these things. I like that Duke is the popular one, but he's growing so much in this story. He's trying to find his place. Just because you're popular doesn't mean you know your place. Duke constantly questions whether is this real, or if I don't keep doing things that these people are saying that I do then I'll lose everything. I do think that that's a struggle for the popular kids. If you could pick up that book as a popular kid and be like, "Yeah. Right, I have things too and I don't know what to do with these things. They're heavy and maybe I don't want to be in the box that I've suddenly found myself in. Maybe I want to go sit with the loner or the art students, or the music group," or whoever. High school is very segregated in where you're going to be, so it's nice for the popular kid to be able to pick up that book and say, "Yeah, I do have things and I don't necessarily know what the hell I'm doing. I don't have it all. I just appear to have it all." Sometimes our appearances really plays with your head. Denise Wolf [29:01]: In a lot of ways, Tommy has more resilience than Duke because Tommy's endured a lot and in some ways that's given him a lot of strength. Lynn Langan [29:12]: Yeah, but he doesn't know he has it. Denise Wolf [29:15]: Right. Lynn Langan [29:15]: Yeah, that's his journey, is that he is authentic to himself, but he doesn't know how to get that out to the world because he's just been shut down by his life situations. Denise Wolf [29:30]: I'm thinking about The Breakfast Club. I'm like is this a modern day Breakfast Club? You know in the end when I think Jeb Nelson's narrating, he's like "In each one of us there's a cheerleader [crosstalk 00:29:40]-" Lynn Langan [29:39]: Oh yeah. Denise Wolf [29:39]: "And the football player." Lynn Langan [29:42]: Right. Denise Wolf [29:43]: Right, and they're dealing with other characters in the book. You meet Charlie, and Lexie, and I'm thinking there's a little bit... It's not like, oh the popular kid's going to read this and identify with Duke. These characters are so well developed and complex. They really speak I think collectively of the adolescent experience. Lynn Langan [30:03]: Yeah, and sometimes I find I read young adult books and they bring up something that's heavy, and then they leave it. They just leave it there- Alyssa Scolari [30:14]: Skirted away, yeah. Lynn Langan [30:15]: It's like, actually that's not what the real emotion of that is. Don't just put it in there because it's heavy. Don't brush over that. We're also, as authors, I think we have a moral code that we should say we're not going to breeze over these emotions because it's not going to sell books or it's not Hollywood enough. No. I think that's what it is. We have the duty as these authors that are writing to these young children to really be their users into the world and validate their feelings that they're feeling, and not gloss over. I was reading a book recently and the main character was raped. Then we were done. I was like nothing- Denise Wolf [31:00]: [crosstalk 00:31:00] that's not how that goes. Lynn Langan [31:01]: That is absolutely not how that goes. Denise Wolf [31:03]: [crosstalk 00:31:03] like that. Lynn Langan [31:05]: Right, my fear is that the young girl who is reading that is like, "Well, I guess I gloss over that, this thing that happened to me. I guess I don't talk about it, or I don't have real feelings about it." Well, no. That's an injustice. Alyssa Scolari [31:22]: Yeah, and as you're both saying this, my adolescence is very much on the forefront of my brain just b because of all the inner child work that I've been doing recently. I have lots of memories from my adolescence, and I was in school. The time that I was in middle school, we didn't talk about this stuff. This really wasn't something that got talked about not even in the slightest. Even today, when it is getting talked about, it's usually not getting talked about correctly, or not handled well. So, we've got a long way to go, but that's a whole other podcast. I turned to books. I was such a reader, and I turned to all of these young adult novels. I remember... As you were saying that Lynn, I'm sitting here and the feeling that I used to feel as a 14 year old is coming back to me, where I was opening these books, these young adult novels, trying to find the darkest ones I could find. I need the darkest book that is in this section that somebody will let me take from this God forsaken school library. I would read it and look, and it would touch on something dark, and that to me would be what I needed to get into. I would be like, "Okay, we're talking about drugs here. We're talking about sexual abuse here." My 14 year old brain is like, "I need more of this. I need more of this. What do you mean you were raped? Are we ever going to talk about this?" No, we're just going to talk about how you got into a fight with your best friend now, and that's the plot. The rape is... So, I love that you're doing that because I agree, and I think that that is such a missing piece for so many young adult novels, is that for Hollywood purposes, for selling purposes, for stigma purposes, because we don't like to talk about these things, a lot of authors gloss over it. There's not many people who dig right into the core and look at all facets of it, because it's uncomfortable for folks. Lynn Langan [33:34]: Yep. Yeah, definitely. There's going to be times where the reader's going to be uncomfortable in Duke and the Lonely Boy, and that's appropriate. My only hope is that I did a good enough job that if it touches one kid's life, if it's a map for one kid's life, then I've done my job. That's kind of what my philosophy is on that. I want to be authentic and give you a real picture of what's going on. Alyssa Scolari [34:04]: Yeah. Lynn Langan [34:05]: Sometimes that's ugly. Alyssa Scolari [34:08]: Sometimes it's ugly, but that's what's so helpful. I know I shared this when we were going back and forth in emails, but for me the book that I was finally able to get my hands on that went into detail, this book it was called Almost Lost. It was the journey of a teenager's healing process and recovery from addiction, and it's the transcript of his therapy sessions were in the book. I read that book and I felt like I was home. Not only did I feel like that therapist in that book was speaking to me as a 14 year old, I was in the eighth grade when I read this book and did a book report on it, but in that moment that book told me this is what I need to do with the rest of my life. When you say "If this book can help one person," I guarantee it's going to help so many more than that because I see what a book did for me. It can change lives. Lynn Langan [35:09]: Right, absolutely. There's a theory I have to bring up here. Alyssa Scolari [35:12]: Please do. Please do. Denise Wolf [35:16]: A theory about why looking at art, why we have sort of these "oh my gosh" relief moments like you're say the art museum, or listening to a piece of well composed music or whatever it is. So, [inaudible 00:35:29] have this series born in psychology to arts that we take a well crafted piece of art, like [inaudible 00:35:36], but we take our defuse tensions and anxieties from our lives, the day, whatever it is, project it into the work of art or reading a book, and through resolution of the formal elements, story after story, our plot, characters, all that kind of stuff, we then experience a sense of our own relief or release of tension, cortisol, all that kind of stuff. I'm really connecting that to when story and your story, and my story of the dark, dark books that I dug out, or the banned books from the library [crosstalk 00:36:11]. Even if it wasn't directly my story to be able to be part of somebody else's that reflected a part of me, that's well crafted, we get a sense of relief and release. Lynn Langan [36:23]: Right, absolutely. Absolutely. Alyssa Scolari [36:26]: Yeah. I have never heard of that before, and that is fascinating. As you're sitting here, I'm such a dork, as you're sitting here saying that, I'm going "Oh shit, that's why I love Harry Potter so much. That's why I can't stop reading Harry Potter." Lynn Langan [36:46]: Yes. Denise Wolf [36:47]: Right, yeah. There's a part of us that we project into these works of art. Then through the character's resolution we experience a sense of our own. Does that mean it's going to fix your problems? No, that's not at all what I'm saying. Lynn Langan [36:59]: No. But sometimes, think we're all saying it too, it's nice to not feel alone. We're not alone and that. Even if it's not our story, if it's just something that's sort of singular or where we can insert ourself, even it's just a false victory because you read the character's victory, it does give you hope. Alyssa Scolari [37:21]: Yes. Lynn Langan [37:22]: And hope is all you really need at the end of the day, because if you feel that you have that, some kind of glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel per se, then you're going to chuck through to the end and find it for yourself. I think. Denise Wolf [37:22]: Yes. Alyssa Scolari [37:38]: Yes. When you are dealing with the biology of an adolescent brain, and their emotional response center is on fire, and their prefrontal cortex, the place for rational thought is under-developed, hope can be a hard, hard thing to come by. Denise Wolf [38:06]: Very. Yeah, it's abstract. I think in adolescent, the top third of their brain is like under construction. Lynn Langan [38:13]: Right. Denise Wolf [38:14]: It's not even there. So, hope is [crosstalk 00:38:16] that belongs in that top third. So, you can talk about it, you have to feel about it. That's where art comes in, to create that- Lynn Langan [38:28]: Yeah, absolutely. Alyssa Scolari [38:31]: Yeah. Lynn Langan [38:33]: There were several scenes in this book that I wrote, and then I would walk away from my desk and come back and be like, "Nope, you wrote that as an adult. Stop. You can't fix the problems like that. Stop it." Alyssa Scolari [38:50]: Yeah, now this might a little bit of a, I guess, abstract question, but was there anything that you had to do to be able to really channel your inner adolescent? Or is that something that's very easily accessible to you? Lynn Langan [39:05]: It's something I think is very easily accessible to me, for some reason. It's a gift that [crosstalk 00:39:11]- Alyssa Scolari [39:11]: It's a gift. A gift and a curse. Lynn Langan [39:15]: [crosstalk 00:39:15]. It's both those things. I was reading this book. I'm dyslexic, so there's book about... A dyslexic author wrote this book about the gifts of being dyslexic. One of the things is that the way we form memories around the events that are happening because for a normal brain it goes syntax... What's that word? Here we go, [crosstalk 00:39:39]. Denise Wolf [39:39]: It's synapsis. Lynn Langan [39:41]: Synapsis. But for a dyslexic brain, it kind of takes a U turn. It pings differently, and because of that we're really grounded in memory. We have an excellent memory for all things, but that's kind of like our survival guide because it's how we thrive. Because of that, I can basically tell you everything that's happened in my life. My memory, for some reason, well not for some reason, for that reason is extremely strong. When I sit down to write these adolescent books, I can just sit down and be like, "Okay, you're 17. Go." You got to think of high school, of events, and just remember how small my brain was, or what I was thinking or feeling at that point. Then I can dive in. That's how I know when I'm not being authentic to the characters or the voice, is when I feel like my adult brain is coming in and being like, "Well, that was easy." I'm like, wait no, it shouldn't be easy. It's not an easy [crosstalk 00:40:39] job. You can't think like that. I feel like because of all of that, that's why I'm very good with my memories and all of that. Denise Wolf [40:47]: Mm-hmm [affirmative], it makes sense. Lynn Langan [40:48]: Mm-hmm [affirmative], I'm very in touch with that. Denise Wolf [40:52]: Fun fact about Lynn, oh my gosh, this so cool, Lynn has soundtracks or song for the characters, so trying to get into character, then they're like, "Oh I need to listen [crosstalk 00:41:03]." Alyssa Scolari [41:03]: Really? Oh, that's so cool. Lynn Langan [41:06]: Right, yeah. It's that initial, here's the story that I'm thinking in my head. Here's the soundtrack that I'm going to put to that, and [inaudible 00:41:14] music. It's very helpful in rewrites because my agent's coming back and saying, "Go into this novel and fix this problem." I'm like, "What? That was so long ago. Oh, I know. I'll just hit this play button right here." And then boom, I'm right back into their world. I'm right there. Alyssa Scolari [41:32]: That is brilliant. Where did you even think to be able to do that? [inaudible 00:41:38] music, depending on whatever you put on, can get you anywhere. Anywhere you want to go- Lynn Langan [41:45]: Yes, anywhere you want to go. Alyssa Scolari [41:46]: Music will take you there. Lynn Langan [41:48]: Yes, it will take you there. The writing process is unique in the fact that you sit down to the computer and you're asking yourself to leave yourself. You're asking yourself to forget about whatever troubles you had that day, or your perspective of the world, or sometimes your gender, and go. As a writer, that's the thing that you have to work on the most, is who is actually at the keyboard today? Is it Lynn, or is it Duke, or is it Tommy? Who is it? In order for me to train my mind to do that, when I first wrote my first novel, I would play their songs. I would play them three or four times before I even put my hands to the keyboard because I knew I had to listen to it repeatedly to get all of my personal baggage out of the way so that the character could step forward and would be influenced in my writing. I can do it now without music. It's really just training your... It's almost like a meditative state, is what I would best explain. You consciously ask yourself to exit. Alyssa Scolari [42:54]: That's fascinating and brilliant. Wow. Denise Wolf [42:59]: Something else [crosstalk 00:43:00] tell me about writing, because I've done some academic writing, is to write first with an old timey pen on paper. There's something about that kinesthetic sensory, just kind of writing actual words on paper and then the first edit becomes entering it into the keyboard. That connects so much more with sort of the I think emotional part of ourselves. Lynn Langan [43:25]: Absolutely. I usually edit... My first round, I'll print out the manuscript and edit that way because there's something about that process that gets you at a computer. Alyssa Scolari [43:35]: Agreed. Lynn Langan [43:36]: It's more authentic to you. Alyssa Scolari [43:38]: Yes, agreed. There's something so different that comes out of you when you are physically writing than hitting buttons on a keyboard. It's a completely different experience. Lynn Langan [43:51]: Absolutely, yeah. Alyssa Scolari [43:54]: I talk about journaling with some of my kids who I feel like it might be helpful for, and they're like, "Can I just type it out on my phone?" I'm like, "Hell no." Lynn Langan [44:04]: No. [crosstalk 00:44:06]. Get that pen in your hand. Feel it. [crosstalk 00:44:08]. Alyssa Scolari [44:08]: And get a fun pen, right? Lynn Langan [44:10]: Yes. Alyssa Scolari [44:11]: I have a set of I think it's like 100 pack. Oh God, 100 pack of glitter gel pens. I'm still a giant child. Denise Wolf [44:21]: Yep. Yeah. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Are they scented? Alyssa Scolari [44:26]: Denise, I looked for the scented ones. Lord knows that I tried. Unfortunately, they're not. Denise Wolf [44:31]: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Alyssa Scolari [44:34]: But I wish. The last question I want to ask you, because I also think this is important because I do know that we have listeners out there who are parents, and if they don't have an adolescent currently, they have an up and coming adolescent or adolescents at home. Do you feel that this book is one that can also help parents and even any adults who work with kids get a better view inside the mind of a kid, which will then also better help them to relate to their kid in real life? Does that make sense? Denise Wolf [45:14]: Yes and yes. Alyssa Scolari [45:15]: Okay. Lynn Langan [45:18]: One of the things that you try to do as a young adult writer is remembering the place of everybody in their lives. Yes, you're living in a family. Yes, you have chores and you have bedtimes, and you have all those things. That's all true. But what's really important is the social aspect. That's where you're getting all your connections, and that's the most important part. As a parent, I think it's easy to look at your 17 or 16 year old kid and forget that there's this whole other life that is very complicated. You're just thinking they're upstairs in their room. They're taking out the trash. It's easy to get into the routine of life and forget that there's these little stories that these kids are having that have nothing to do with you. [crosstalk 00:46:08]. You can only hope that you're a great parent and you modeled well, because they're out there in the real world by themselves, and this is the time. I think that's why I like this age, because it is the loosening of the parents and the influence, and the family structure, which is also very hard on the parents, but it's just as hard on the kids. It's that constant, I think you see that a lot with Duke, where he feels guilty for not watching football with his dad because that's what they used to do. He has a social life now, and he needs to go out with his friends, but he still has that little internal battle like, "I'm going," but there's also a sadness that I know that this slipping away. Even though I'm looking forward to my independence, it is also scary. I think for both parents and kids, that's a good reminder of that. Denise Wolf [47:01]: Right, that it's all the feels. It's all the feels. I had to do an art engagement with youth, so I had to craft a 50 message about adolescents to adolescence. So, that's not a lot of words. Lynn helped me write it, thank you, and it started off with "No matter what, it's going to hurt." It was really great, if I do say so, and I submitted and they changed it before publication and didn't check with me. So, when I read my message to adolescents in this glossy thing they put out, it was like being a teen is great. I'm like, fuck no. Alyssa Scolari [47:37]: What the fuck? Denise Wolf [47:39]: [crosstalk 00:47:39] I said it's going to hurt, but it's okay. Alyssa Scolari [47:44]: You wrote, "It's going to hurt," and they took that and said, "Being a teen is great"? Denise Wolf [47:44]: Yeah. Lynn Langan [47:50]: Yeah. Denise Wolf [47:51]: Mm-hmm [affirmative], [crosstalk 00:47:52]. Alyssa Scolari [47:51]: Jesus Lord Almighty. Denise Wolf [47:55]: To your question earlier, Alyssa, I think it's really valuable and important for adults, educators remind ourselves of all that angsty stuff, all the feels. Get back into that. Like, no matter what it's going to hurt. You're going to be okay, but can't escape the pain. That's where growth happens. Lynn Langan [48:15]: Right, exactly. Just go ahead and feel what you need to feel. It'll be funny if you interviewed I would say Duke's family, they also I think would come away and have the perspective that everything in Duke's life is okay, where it's not. His family member that really knows that is his sister, which is also good for parents to I think see from that angle that siblings have that connection with each other and they can look out for each other, or they can call each other out on their bullshit, or any of that. Yeah, it's just a weird time in the like where everybody's learning how to let go of this family unit. Denise Wolf [48:57]: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Alyssa Scolari [49:00]: I think the most important part is just what both of you were speaking to is, being able as adults to get back in touch with not just the angst, but all of the feelings. I think so much of adulthood has become just about numbing out, by working 9:00 to 5:00, playing music or a podcast, or a news radio in the car to and from work. You come home. You eat. You do whatever. You go to bed, and you do it all the next days. Weekends stereotypically include going out, drinking, this, that... it's so focused around just numbing out. As adults, we almost just even have time for our feelings. I think that's what makes the three of us so fucking incredible, because I don't sense that we do that. We feel things. Denise Wolf [49:52]: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Lynn Langan [49:52]: Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [49:53]: And refuse to live in the numbed out state that I think a lot of adults have found themselves in. Denise Wolf [50:01]: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Lynn Langan [50:01]: Yeah. I should say I think one of the best advice that Denise has ever given me in my life was that she said, when I was going through some tough times, she was like "Look, pull up a chair. Make yourself a cup of tea. Get to know that feeling that you're feeling. Ask it questions. Just don't shy away from it. Lean into it." It's really good advice to remember that as an adult, you're right, we get into these routines and again, we get more and more narrow in our thinking, in the way... I think that's part of society's pressure too, like don't talk about your feelings. Just do, do, do. It's okay to have feelings around if you want to feel sad. It's okay to feel sad. If things are not working out, it's okay that things aren't working out. It's not the end of the world. That's what's so fun about adolescents too is that they can fall down and get back up. You're so resilient when you're young, because you just haven't really quite learned to stay on the floor. I think that's probably what the three of us have learned, we keep standing up. We're going to take the punches in the ring and it's going to hurt, but we keep going and we're going to feel those feelings, we're going to figure out how not to get hit by that again- Denise Wolf [51:17]: But we probably will. Lynn Langan [51:18]: We probably will. Denise Wolf [51:19]: We will. [crosstalk 00:51:20]. Lynn Langan [51:22]: Yeah, we won't shy away from it. Denise Wolf [51:23]: Yeah, and we'll have great stories to tell. Lynn Langan [51:26]: Yeah, exactly. Alyssa Scolari [51:27]: Yes, that's living. To me, that's living at it's fullest. Lynn Langan [51:31]: Right, absolutely. Denise Wolf [51:33]: Yep. Alyssa Scolari [51:34]: I love it. Lynn Langan [51:34]: Through mistakes. Yeah. Alyssa Scolari [51:37]: If people would like to buy this book, where on earth can they find it? I know Amazon is one, but I also want to plug if it's in any kind of small businesses or anything like that, or is it mostly Amazon? Lynn Langan [51:50]: Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and the great and wonderful Bookshop where you can go on and order it and it fosters independent bookstores. So, if you buy it from Bookshop it will be pulled from your local store. Bookshop.org, yeah. Alyssa Scolari [52:06]: Bookshop.org. Okay, I will make sure... So yeah, to the listeners out there, this is a book you absolutely going to want to get your hands on, whether you're an adolescent tuning in, whether you're in the young adult phase of your life, whether you have kids of you own, whether you are a teacher, or a therapist, truthfully even if you're a therapist who works with adults, so many of the adults that you're working with have unresolved childhood issues. I don't like the word "issues", but I can't think of a better word right now. It's very important to be able to tap into this type of stuff. Honestly, this book is very useful for everybody. Of course, feel free to use Amazon because it'll get to you very quickly, but also I am going to put the other link in there because, you know, support your local bookstore, or support small businesses as well. So, head over to the show notes. Denise and Lynn, thank you for a wonderful episode. I love talking about kids. Lynn Langan [53:13]: Yes. Alyssa Scolari [53:14]: It's been fun. Lynn Langan [53:14]: Yeah, thanks for having us. Denise Wolf [53:16]: Yeah, thank you. Alyssa Scolari [53:17]: Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information please head over to LightAfterTrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we @LightAfterTrauma. On Twitter, it is @LightAfterPod. Lastly, please head over to Patreon.com/LightAfterTrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5.00 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So, please head on over. Again, that's Patreon.com/LightAfterTrauma. Thank you, and we appreciate your support. [singing]

On this week's episode, Alyssa sits down with author Kimberley Pittman-Schulz to talk about one of life's toughest emotions: grief. Tune in to listen to Kim share her personal experience in losing loved ones. Kimberley sheds light on the grieving process and normalizes the intense pain that we feel in the wake of someone's death, whether it be a person or a beloved pet. In her new book, Grieving Us, Kim helps us to remember the ways in which we can continue to make meaning in our lives even in the midst of grief. Support the Podcast Light After Trauma website   Kim's Link for the Listeners Buy Kimberley's Book   Transcript: Alyssa Scolari (00:23]: Hey, hey, hey, everybody, this is a monumental moment because I am recording the very first episode in our new home, which is so exciting. The walls are pretty empty and pretty bare, but hey, we will get there day by day. This place is starting to feel more and more like a home, so I am really excited for it. I'm also very excited for today's interview. We have with us a very special guest, Kimberley Pittman-Schulz. Kimberley is an award-winning poet and author who writes, teaches and speaks about death, living mindfully, and being a force for change in the world. With 25 plus years as a philanthropy leader and charitable and end-of-life planning advisor, Kimberley has worked with incredibly diverse people looking for meaning after the loss of a spouse, a partner, a child, a sibling, a parent, a grandparent, or a beloved animal. Her focus is helping people cultivate joy every day, so they can more deeply experience the meaning and beauty of their one and only lives. With that being said, hi, Kim. Thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (01:47]: Alyssa, thank you so much. I really appreciate the invitation to talk with you and to talk with your listeners. I really admire your podcast and I look forward to this conversation with you. Alyssa Scolari (01:59]: Thank you. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while, and I really think that timing is just so interesting to me sometimes. I almost feel like nothing is a coincidence. Speaking of grief, it's one of those things and I tend to be very open. The listeners know, I tend to be very open about my recovery journey on the podcast. One of the things that I think in light ... So I just recently moved. This is the first podcast episode that I am recording in the new home, which is very exciting. One of the things that I think has come up for me, especially this week, so today is Thursday that we are recording this for the listeners, and I have been in the grief, a pit of grief since probably like Monday it hit me. I'm starting to come out of it, but to me, grief is one of the things from my perspective that we tend to spend so much of our lives avoiding and running from and finding ways to numb out, because I think it's one of the most difficult things. What has inspired you to say, "I'm going to take one of the most painful feelings on earth and I'm going to dive right in and I'm going to write about it and share about it." What inspired you to do that? Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (03:25]: Self-punishment maybe? No. To be absolutely honest- Alyssa Scolari (03:29]: Self-loathing. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (03:32]: I think grief, loss, I mean, none of us get out of it alive. Some of us get to live, some of us don't and those of us that are left behind need to deal with it. Grief is so many things. It's not even one thing. I mean, you've got anger and guilt and regret and longing, and there're so many emotions bundled up in that. Then there're so many different grieving styles. For me, part of it was learning to navigate my own grief years ago. I very much was stuck in a grief hole for two years after my mother died and a friend committed suicide two weeks before she died, so I had these things bundled together. As a child, I survived a house fire that my two sisters sleeping in the same room did not. So for me, this loss and navigating it, my mother could never talk about it. When you're a little kid and you can't really talk about what happened to my sisters? What happened to the house? You have to do a lot of figuring out on your own. When we got into the pandemic, I started just really hearing some people's pain, what they're struggling with and feeling like there's a million systems for getting better, but people were struggling. I thought maybe what has worked for me ... And I've worked with a lot of people over the years through my philanthropy and end-of-life planning work, practices that have helped them. I really wanted ... And I love to write. I'm also a writer before I'm anything else. For me, it was about trying to help other people navigate grief and whenever you are trying to teach others, let's face it, you're also teaching yourself. Alyssa Scolari (05:03]: Absolutely. Right. We were just saying that before we started recording, right? Doing all of this, we're helping others as much as we're helping ourselves. Right. You are a writer, as I said in the introduction, and you have ... I think it's important to talk about. You have a book out that was just released in March of this year. It was a number one release on Amazon, in several different categories. The name of that book is Grieving Us. Now, is that your first book that you've written on grief? Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (05:36]: Yes. Yes. It's the first book I've written on grief, and the first book I've written other than poetry. My first book was 10 years ago. It was a poetry volume. Interestingly enough, the name of that volume is Mosslight. It was published by a literary publisher and won a national book award actually at that time. When you go back and look at the poems, there is a lot of grief, resilience, navigating loss. Actually going back and looking at that book and hearing from people who've read that book, reminded me that this is just who I am, you know? As we move further through life, I think it has a great focusing effect in helping you figure out, what am I supposed to do? How can I make the most meaning while I'm here on the planet for myself and others? Alyssa Scolari (06:22]: Yeah. Yeah. Now, can you give us a brief synopsis of your book? I love the title, Grieving Us. What does that mean? Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (06:32]: Right. The subtitle is important too, because it's based on a question that people ask me all the time. The subtitle is how to live with loss without losing yourself. Because the number one question I often hear is, how do I live with this without losing myself? I feel so lost. Because when someone that's been a critical part of your life leaves you, now we're talking about death here, but it can be divorced, it can be all kinds of reasons why somebody is not in your life anymore, you do actually lose part of your life. There's a dailiness to the way we love people. I say in the book, love is a habit and how you love people takes shape and rituals and habits and routines, and so when that person is not in your life, your days can literally be broken. It can be hard sometimes for people to pinpoint why they're having a hard time as they're moving through grief, starting to find well-being or inviting joy back in. The synopsis, Grieving Us is really intended to function on a few different levels, because I always say when one person dies, there's always at least three deaths. There's the person that you love who's lost. You cannot help. It is human nature to look at yourself and say, "Wow, I could be next. Am I next?" Or in some cases people say, "Do I want to keep on living?" We do reflect on our own mortality. Then the relationship you had with that person is like a third party, if you will, because that is also gone and you have to hold onto that person in a different way. Then for me, there's another sort of level of meaning and that my husband has in, his end of lifetime. I'm living with my own anticipatory grief and trying to live with joy and grieving at the same time. It has a large context as well as very personal context for me, Alyssa. Alyssa Scolari (08:24]: Yes. I really appreciate what you said about the joy and the grief and that I think so many of us fall into a place of suffering partially because we feel that they're polar opposites and can't coexist, but I think it's very important to know that both can be there. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (08:49]: For me, it's a basic premise. It can sound hokey or corny or naive to say, "Oh, yeah. Right. Grief and joy coexist." But I've discovered that that's just true. The question is how do you get there? Because so often, Alyssa, and I'm sure you hear it in the clients that you work with, I've got to get through grief to joy. As if joy is a destination. I was having this conversation with someone recently, and it just bubbled out of my mouth and I thought, "Wow, that's kind of true." Is that joy is not a destination. It's really a dimension. Part of what I teach in my book, I start by having people tell their loss story to themselves because often we tell our loss stories to everybody but ourselves. Then the next step, and what was really the healing aha moment for me is what I've come to call tiny come back to your senses rituals. It's creating ... I started with just literally a few minutes, like three minutes where I just created an opening in the grief and for that moment, I was just so fully in the moment. I mean, I could tell you a little bit more about the process, but the idea was that I had created a break in my grief through this ritual that allowed a little bit of joy. When I say joy, I want to maybe define that a little bit too, because there's happy, right? Riding a rollercoaster makes you happy, but we say makes you happy because we know that's transient, right? A little bit later, we're looking for something else to make us happy. For me, joy is related, but it is a different thing. It's about knowing you're meant to be here. It's about being in this moment. Right now I'm having this wonderful conversation with you and getting a chance to meet with you and talk with you about this and to be fully immersed in this moment and have it have a sense of meaning and purpose. Just knowing that no matter what else is going on in my life or the rest of the day, everything's okay right in this moment. To me, that's a big part of what joy is and it is there, ever-present. It's just creating that break in the grief to be able to let the light of that come in and root and grow. Then the goal is as we move through grief to just make those breaks bigger and let a little bit more joy in. Alyssa Scolari (10:56]: When you say the break in the grief, you get that break in the grief through what you call the tiny come back to your senses rituals, is that correct? Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (11:07]: Yes. Yes. Yeah. I stumbled into it, Alyssa, really by accident. I mean, I was in this ... What turned out to be a little over two-year period of being what I call lost limbo after my mother died and Ruth had committed suicide and these were just so linked together. They're still linked together in my life and in my grief and in my sense of loss. We had moved across country from where I had lost my mother and happened to live on a stretch that had some river frontage. I remember one of the things that happens when you're grieving, right? I'm sure you've experienced this through all of your own healing from trauma, is how broken some of your habits and rituals get. There's always a few things that you still do. For instance, I will always make a cup of tea in the morning, no matter what. I mean, the world could be burning. I'm going to have my cup of tea, right? Well- Alyssa Scolari (11:07]: You're having that tea. Yep. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (11:54]: Yeah. Exactly. Well, at that point in my life, also, before I went to bed, no matter what, I always locked the doors. One night before I locked the doors, I decided to just wander out to the river. I walked out to the river and I stood at the edge of the river and I just listened to the water. I don't know if you've had this experience, Alyssa, or some of your listeners, sometimes the movement of water over rocks can almost even sound like voices and you think, "Is there someone upstream?" It really isn't. It's just literally the voice of the water and the volume of it going through and over the rocks. Then you hear a bird shuffling, it's quietly in a tree, there's a little bit of fog coming in. I was really feeling the sensation of the fog on my arms. As I turned to walk back in the house, it suddenly just on me, in that little space, just a few minutes I didn't feel awful. I didn't feel awful. I felt okay, and so as I came back in and I locked the door, I realized I was onto something. I began to then intentionally build some of these grief rituals into habits that were already working because I think that's the hard type thing, is people will say, "Go do X or go do Y." It's like, "How do I do it?" If you have to find that one or two things in your day that actually works, you can add on. Start with just three minutes and even the busiest or most burdened people can find usually that three minutes. Alyssa Scolari (13:16]: Yes. I so appreciate that, and coming off the heels of feeling such intense grief the last several days, I know that for me, it's one of those things you can't snap out of it. There's no like, "I'm going to snap out of this." No. For me, the transformation happened in the 30 seconds that it took me to go online and book an appointment for myself and I noticed that while I was doing that, I was okay. I was okay. I had my diffuser on, the air smelled really nice. I had a blanket on, my dog was curled up next to me. I was like ... It took me 30 seconds, but after those 30 seconds, I went, "Oh, I didn't feel like my world was crashing down around me for 30 seconds." To me, that's the process. More than like, "Oh, well, today I had a great day. I did this. I did that. I'm so happy. Thank God I'm not in that bad place anymore." It's like, it doesn't really work like that. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (14:23]: No. You can have a day that's really crappy but instead of having a day that's crappy all day, to have a few moments like that, where you really are getting a break and you really are feeling like, "Okay. I'm not going to take on the universe here and I'm not the best I've ever been, wow. I got a break for a little bit." That to my mind is where it all starts. Alyssa Scolari (14:44]: Yeah. I also love what you said about your journey to the river, because I relate to that so much. I think that I first started tapping into this enormous wave of grief back in early June when we went to the Finger Lakes and we were on vacation. It was my first time I went to the Finger Lakes and just sitting on the water and hearing the water splash up against the rocks and looking at the fish swimming in the water, I was like ... I find that my grief can be healed or at least not healed, but understood and I can get some relief from it in nature, particularly in the water, like near water. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (15:32]: Yeah. I would share that. I'm a nature geek anyway so it certainly works for me. I've had people say to me though, "Kimberley, I'm just not a nature type so this isn't going to work for me." I would say, "No." I've worked with a number of people to implement something that works for them. One woman I used to work with, a colleague had ... I think it was her brother that she had lost. She was talking about every night she would get through the day, she's what I call a hummingbird griever. She was able to keep going through it. Some of us want to be like bears and go in a cave and just leave me alone until I feel better. Others are what I call hummingbirds. They just keep doing, doing, doing, doing, trying to keep ahead of the grief, right? Alyssa Scolari (16:11]: Yep. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (16:11]: She would get home at the end of the day she said, "I'm just crying into my Chardonnay every night. It's just that I'm drinking too much of it too, to be absolutely honest. I don't know where I would put ..." I said, "You know what? Why don't you start your tiny come back to your senses ritual around that glass of wine?" She says, "Okay. Well, I get the taste and I can try to remember to smell." She said, "But how do you hear wine?" I said, "Tap on the edge of the glass." Alyssa Scolari (16:35]: Oh, yeah. Tap. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (16:36]: "Or listen to the sound of it going down your throat. I mean, just be very, very mindful. Try to use all five senses when you drink that glass of wine." It was several months later I ran into her and she goes, "I thought what you said was kind of crazy, but you know what? It slowed me down. I actually enjoyed my glass of wine more." She said, "I'm not drinking as much of it." For her, she had what she called her wine time. That was her tiny come back to her senses rituals, was just really experiencing the entire glass of wine with all of her senses. Sometimes it takes a little creativity to figure out what works. That's what I love about what I've tried to teach, is that this isn't take what works for me now you have to make it work, because you're a different person. But you can take the concept and adapt it to what's meaningful for you. Alyssa Scolari (17:21]: Exactly. Exactly. I love that. Now, I want to shift gears a little bit because I really want to dive into this. Can we talk about animals for a moment? Because ... And, oh dear Lord, if I get through this conversation without shedding one tear, that will be a huge victory because animals, I love. I have three dogs. All animals, I am a huge animal lover. I really think that this is important to talk about because I can't tell you how many people come into my office and have lost pets and are absolutely devastated beyond belief, but feel as though they shouldn't. This is not an uncommon thing. So many people feel that losing pets can be harder in some ways than losing people. So many people, myself included, I will watch TV and I will watch true crime documentaries all day long, but let me tell you, if there is one episode where an animal is harmed or killed, I'm done. Done. I'm not alone. I know I'm not alone in that. Is that something that you can talk more about? Is there a reason why it feels so much harder? Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (18:52]: Oh my gosh, Alyssa, I am just- Alyssa Scolari (18:55]: I know, that was a lot. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (18:56]: ... so simpatico, but no, I mean, I feel exactly every word that you just said. So many people I've known and worked with, I feel the same way. Early in my life I worked with UC Davis School of Veterinary medicine. It was the first veterinary school to actually create a pet loss support hotline because helping veterinarians learn how to deal with the grief that their patients had over a pet was such a big issue. Veterinarians did not handle it. About a year ago I gave a talk on death to estate and financial planners who are focused on helping people plan for the end of life, but never want to talk about death. Pets are huge for people. It certainly depends. In my book I tell a story about after my dog died, technically he was my stepdad because it came with my husband like a dowry, right? The person- Alyssa Scolari (18:56]: Oh, what kind of dog? Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (19:46]: Yeah. It was a mutt, Heinz 57, but he was really cute, really sweet. We walked together, did a lot together. After he died someone in the community ran into me and said, "Oh, well, at least it's a dog. You can get another." I am not a violent person, Alyssa, but I really ... The vision went through my head of really smacking her [inaudible 00:20:05] just because it wasn't just a dog or just ... I mean, you wouldn't say that if somebody lost a child or a spouse. For me, part of what I think can be in some ways ... And this is why I do think some people ... I have a friend who lost her father and a dog within a few weeks of each other. She says, "Of course I miss my father. He was 94. I spent the last few months caring for him." She goes, "I have to admit, the dog is actually way harder. It was a rescue dog. It had been doing great and then something just suddenly came up and it was gone." I think one of the things you don't hear people talk a lot about is the dailiness of people and animals in our lives. Animals are often ... Spouses may come and go to work, partners may come and go, kids come and go, but often those dogs or cats, like right now, I'm a cat lady. We have kittens, or technically cats, but they're still kittens to me. It's- Alyssa Scolari (20:58]: Always kittens. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (20:59]: ... always kittens. Yeah. Alyssa Scolari (20:59]: They'll always be kittens. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (21:00]: Yeah. You have this dailiness of like this morning just brushing my hair. The cat's on the counter in the bathroom watching me brush my hair. We have little things that we do. Little habits together, and so throughout the day they're an intimate part of my daily life. When you lose a companion animal, again, you have all those little gaps that you have to learn to bridge because that being isn't there. Let's face it, animals love us no matter what we look like or act like. I mean, unless we're abusive people, I mean, it's truly the most unconditional love you're going to find. Alyssa Scolari (21:41]: It is, and even, you know what? Sometimes even if people are abusive, an animal will still look at you and beg for love and attention and affection. It is the most- Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (21:52]: It's true. Alyssa Scolari (21:52]: ... unconditional love that I think I've ever experienced. I'm thinking of this morning as we're having this conversation. We moved into this new house and we used to, in our old house, because we had carpet upstairs, we kept the dogs downstairs. Didn't let them upstairs. They weren't in the bedroom. We don't have carpet in this house and the dogs are upstairs, downstairs. They're everywhere. Everywhere I go I'm tripping over a dog. This morning, I opened my eyes, my eyes popped open suddenly and I see ... I have two Australian shepherds. One of my Australian shepherds, he is two years old. His head was resting on the bed and he was making direct eye contact with me and grinning from ear to ear. I could see all his teeth. He was so happy. He was just staring at me, waiting for me to get up. As soon as I opened my eyes, he was like, "Mom, hi, let's get up. I love you. You look beautiful. No, your breath doesn't stink." As I'm breathing my morning breath on him. I'm just like, those are the moments that are unparalleled. Unparalleled. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (23:13]: Well, there's nothing quite like dog love like that. I mean, there isn't. Someday when that beautiful little being is not a physical presence, you're going to continue to have that wonderful emotional presence. You just don't forget it. Alyssa Scolari (23:33]: Never. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (23:33]: Again, that dailiness, I mean, other people in your life except maybe a spouse, partner or kids, who else fills that kind of a role? I mean, it's just a very ... And if you are, as I am, an animal person ... And what's tough is when animal people then are experiencing losses around people who aren't and don't get it. What I usually say to people is resist the temptation to let that be a burden to you or be frustrated or angry, because that's just more emotion on top of grief. It's better just to let it go and just know that's their loss and just focus on caring for yourself. The problem is a lot of times people are made to feel like they're grieving wrong. That's true with humans too. Particularly with animals, people can be made to feel like they're wrong or weird. I'm just here to say, no, you're not. Again, if you didn't love, gosh darn it, it wouldn't be a problem, but you love so when you lose that physical presence of someone you love, whether that someone has four legs, fur and a tail, it's going to hurt. Alyssa Scolari (24:35]: Excruciating. Excruciating grief. Yeah. I think that that's a huge problem, is that people are in their grief, but then they're also made to feel somewhat guilty or a little bit weird for the grief that they have. I remember when I got my dog, I have a little dog. I got her ... She was born six days after I escaped from an abusive relationship. I got out of his house on July 14th and she was born six days later. Two months after that, I had her. I had no idea I was getting a dog. She found me. I swear to this day the gods created her because they were like, "All right, she's going to need some love." Have her. Two days ago, she turned eight. I remember when I first got her, when I tell you I'm enamored with this dog and was, people would say things to me like, "Don't you love her a little too much?" Or like, would say things like- Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (25:52]: Oh my gosh. How is that even possible? Alyssa Scolari (25:53]: Right? How is that even possible? Or my favorite was like, "I know you love your dog, but you do know your dog's going to die eventually, right? You got to separate a little bit." I- Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (26:06]: It's like, well, I know you're going to guide too, but hey, you know? Alyssa Scolari (26:08]: Well, I felt like, "Yeah. Well, yeah." Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (26:08]: Right. Exactly. Alyssa Scolari (26:12]: [crosstalk 00:26:12] less now that you said that. Yeah. These are the kinds of things that we say. Like for people who are avid pet lovers or people who have lost a pet, it's like, "Oh, you just get another one." It's like, so now on top of our grief, we feel guilt for the love that we have. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (26:33]: Guilt or like we're stupid or weird or abnormal, and that's just no good at all. I mean, it's just no good at all. There're so many other ways too, through grief that people feel that way. I'll take anybody who loves and grieves any day, over someone who surprisingly doesn't love that much and so they don't have to navigate that grief journey as much. Alyssa Scolari (26:57]: Yes. I don't remember who said this, but I remember I heard this quote and this is one of my favorite books is David Kessler, The Sixth Stage of Grief. Finding Meaning. A phenomenal book for the listeners out there. I know I've recommended it multiple times on this podcast, but he talked a lot about how grief yes, there is a way to avoid grief, but the way to avoid grief is to avoid love. You can't avoid one without the other, without avoiding the other. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (27:32]: It's like two sides of the same coin, really. I mean, absolutely. The whole issue of meaning too is really important because I feel like when you talk about human beings, what makes human beings different than a lot of other animals. As a kid I grew up and the answer was always opposable thumbs, you know? Right? Because we can grasp things with our opposable thumbs, but I really think it's actually meaning making is our super power as human beings, because it allows us to grasp things with our minds. That means you can really assign meaning where you want it. You get to choose what's meaningful to you. That can be who you love. It can be how you grieve. In my book I tell a story about that I can teach my cat to know the word dragonfly. I have a pond in my yard, so I can say dragonfly and the cat knows I'm referring to that thing that she'd love to catch going back and forth above the pond. What I can't teach her to do is what I do when I see a dragonfly, it is tied to my mother. When I see a dragonfly, I'm also thinking of my mother. I asked myself, "Could I ever teach my cat a word that when she saw the thing she could equate it, not only to the thing in the physical world, but to a memory of her own mother as a kitten?" I was like, "I don't think I can." That is, I think ... And I know David also talks about things like this in his book. This whole idea of meaning is ultimately I think how we move through grief and get to a better place of well-being, and even defining what joy means and how we make more of that in our lives comes through our ability that we get to say what's meaningful. Alyssa Scolari (29:07]: Yeah. Yes. Finding meaning is so helpful. Does that for you, from your perspective, fall into the same category as helping others, finding meaning also with helping others? Because I know you talked about how much helping others can be hugely impactful in the grieving process. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (29:31]: To me, they're tied at the hip. I mean, certainly for me personally. Sometimes when I think about I spent a lot of my career working in philanthropy with people, we don't often think about this. Even people who work in philanthropy often, unless you stop and really think about it, so much of philanthropy, so much of giving back, whether that's a financial contribution or volunteering or random acts of kindness, when you drill down to what motivates a person to do those things, what you often realize- Alyssa Scolari (30:00]: I just saw a cat. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (30:03]: I couldn't make her stay out so it's just I thought rather than having her paw at the door, it'd be easier just to let her be. Alyssa Scolari (30:09]: Oh, I love it. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (30:10]: I woke her up talking about animals or something. I just feel like as we move through our grief and our healing process and we think about what's meaningful ... And so for me, what I realized is a lot of that motivation to give back and help others in any sort of way, often does come from a place of loss and of trying to ... One of the things you can't ... Like when I talk about meaning, people will say, "Do you mean I'm supposed to believe that someone's death, there's meaning to that, or it was done for a reason?" I said, "Well, you have to decide if that's what you believe." I personally don't think somebody died because it was the thing that was supposed to happen. That's my personal belief system. For some people they really do believe that death is part of a plan. I think again, each person has to find their way there. What I do believe is that when we start to think about giving of ourselves, it not only makes us feel good to be helping others, it not only creates a little bit of a break and a distraction in pain, but it does make a difference in other people's lives. So much of the giving impulse does come from a place of pain. I've sat with many individuals, volunteers, donors, people involved at doing frontline charitable work, hospice volunteers and nurses, how much of that motivation comes from a place of pain and trying to make some meaning for them by helping others. Alyssa Scolari (31:38]: Yeah. Absolutely. Right? Even therapists. Right? Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (31:43]: Yep. And podcast hosts. Alyssa Scolari (31:46]: Podcast hosts, writers, right? People aren't writing about this stuff because it's coming from a place of joy and never having lived or experienced. People are writing from their own pain or working or whatever it is they do, volunteering, coming from a place of their own pain. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (32:06]: Definitely. No. Definitely. I think even small ... We tend to think of random acts of kindness as being goody two-shoes or Pollyanna or something like that, or maybe even sounding hokey. But to be absolutely honest, that's a strategy I often suggest. I was literally writing a post that I'll be posting later about this very topic, that when I talk with people who are struggling with grief, a lot of times they've lost that sense of meaning and purpose in their lives without their beloved other, whoever that, or whatever creature that may be, a person or animal, whatever. I really want people to realize that they have a heartbroken, but still beautiful life. I hate for people to sort of give away their life. It takes time. I'm not saying just get over it. That's not what I'm saying at all. But to take the time to realize you are going to have to build a new life, which means creating a new version of you that didn't exist before. I mean, you didn't ask for this giant change in your life, it has happened to you, right? You've got to create something new out of that. Finding a way to give back in small ways and realizing how often you have done or other people have done to you, generous things. Whether it's paying for someone's coffee in line behind you, or just a nice word or a nice compliment that you may think is completely offhand that can make a huge difference from somebody. You never know. There are times, years later when I'll run into somebody and they'll say, "Back in so-and-so you said this to me, and I can't tell you what a difference it makes." I'm sitting there thinking, "I said that?" I was like, "Yeah, it sounds like something I would say, but I don't even remember what they're talking about." It's so important to realize that as long as you're physically in this world and you can't help but take up space, you are going to impact others. One of the choices you can make is to be a little more intentional about that. When you're first putting those very first feelers out from that place of grief, trying to find some ground, starting with something as simple as a compliment to somebody or some truly ... What seems like random is really not random at all act of kindness to somebody else, is going to actually make you feel pretty good. Again, it's like your 30 seconds this morning. In that space, everything was okay. Alyssa Scolari (34:23]: Absolutely. Absolutely. In that space everything was okay. When I woke up this morning and opened my eyes and saw a big hairy dog smiling at me, I was like, "Everything's fine. Everything's fine." I love it. Thank you. Much for sharing. Now, of course, if people would like to find your book or have questions or want to purchase your book, where's the easiest way? Is it via Amazon? Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (34:53]: Well, of course Amazon sells about 72% of the planet's books, so yes, you'll find all versions of my books there. I also encourage people to work with their local bookseller who can order just about anything on the planet as well and you're buying local as well. I also have a website as well, website link. In fact, I set up a landing page for your listeners. My website is poetowl.com. There's just a slash light after trauma and so they can go and they'll see your podcast cover and not feel like they're going to a stranger's house. They can click on a link and get the book there, or explore some other information that's there as well. I'm in the process of putting together a workshop. There are some other resources there that I'm building out. Alyssa Scolari (35:38]: Fantastic. That's so poetowl.com/lightaftertrauma. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (35:44]: Yes. Alyssa Scolari (35:45]: Ooh. All right. To the listeners- Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (35:45]: Yeah. I was like- Alyssa Scolari (35:47]: ... I'm there now. This is, ooh, such a lovely page. What I will do, so for the listeners out there, I will be linking that in the show notes so you know where to go. Please check that out. I cannot wait to read this book because it just sounds phenomenal. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. Thank you for sharing your expertise, for being vulnerable. I know this is tough to talk about, but you're doing the hard work. You're really doing some of the hardest work, I believe, on the planet. Thank you so much for your time. Kimberley Pittman-Schulz (36:25]: Thank you, Alyssa, too. Really we're all going to have to do the hard work. Alyssa Scolari (36:30]: So true. So true. Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Please head on over again. That's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you we appreciate your support. [singing]