Podcast appearances and mentions of Gerald Gardner

On this episode of the Reliability Matters podcast, I left my usual studio for the IPC APEX Expo in Anaheim California.I interviewed two subject matter experts on topics related to electronic assembly.My guests are:Gerald Gardner, Global Product Manager at Weller, a manufacturer of hand soldering equipment fume extraction systems, and precision tools.Mike Young – CEO OF SASinno Americas, a manufacturer of wave and selective soldering equipment.More information on my guest's companies is available here:SASinno Americashttps://www.sasinnoamericas.comWellerhttps://www.weller-tools.com/us/en

Oggi accompagna Emeth ai microfoni Enrico della @congregadelpicchioverde, per una puntata interamente dedicata a un confronto fra Wicca e magia dei grimori.Molti pensano che la Wicca sia solo una versione soft della magia cerimoniale o un'eredità diretta dei grimori rinascimentali.In questo episodio con Enrico, iniziato e sacerdote, sfatiamo questa idea, esplorando la maniera in cui la Wicca, nella figura di Gerald Gardner, si è ispirata ai grimori calandone alcuni elementi in un contesto completamente differente, pur integrato all'interno del flusso della Tradizione Magica Occidentale. Alcuni elementi sono stati selezionati e reinterpretati, altri semplicemente ignorati.Parleremo quindi di cosa la Wicca ha preso dai grimori, cosa ha trasformato e cosa ha deciso di lasciarsi alle spalle, per costruire una pratica magica e una religiosità autonoma, centrata sulla natura e l'estasi.Potete contattare Enrico e la Congrega del Picchio Verde attraverso i social:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: ⁠cerchiopiceno@gmail.com⁠+++SCOPRI NEXUS ARCANUM CONTATTI, CONTENUTI & NOVITA'-> ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Qui⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Iscriviti a Patreon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Se vuoi fare una donazione:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠paypal.me/nexusarcanum⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠PODCAST INSIEME?⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Leggi il bando!⁠⁠⁠⁠

Come sit a spell while your favorite witches talk a little bit about what they learned about Gerald Gardner and the creation of Wicca (now known as Gardnerian Wicca).

¿Brujas y hechiceros, o garcas y degenerados? ¿Creen en lo que dicen, o nos están tomando el pelo? Doreen Dominy (luego Doreen Valiente), Gerald Gardner, Dion Fortune, Rollo Ahmed, y el mismísimo Aleister Crowley; gente que realmente existió y que fue parte de la escena esotérica del Reino Unido antes, durante, y después de la Segunda Guerra Mundial. Si bien algunos no se conocieron en la realidad, o se conocieron después, en este comic se unen en 1941 para combatir al misticismo del Tercer Reich con su propia medicina, o para usar la superstición nazi en su contra. Hacemos la RE: seña de The Witches of World War II, un comic de Paul Cornell y Valeria Burzo, con Jordie Bellaire y Simon Bowland. Escuchen y sepan si el truco funciona, o si se trata solo de un engaño barato. Con música de Ozzy Osbourne, y The Falcons of Haunt. Próximo programa: Catálogo e Historias de Editoriales Menores de Comics de EEUU (Boom!, Malibu, IDW, etc).

Redaktionen är arga, upprörda och förvirrade - fast på ett bra sätt. För det skaver. Vi vill göra upp mot tankegods som smugit sig in i den magiska rörelsen men varifrån kommer dessa tankar? Är magin som starkast när vi är alla Gandalf den grå? Varför använder vi teosofernas arv i modern magi? Kan vi avkolonisera vår magi ännu mer?Ett avsnitt för dig som vill snurra runt med oss i Förmödrars kosmiska torktumlare.Shownotes:Dag Strömbäck - Sejd. Sejd och andra studier i nordiska själsuppfattningar. Avhandlingar 1935, Uppsala UniversitetRonald Hutton, Drawing down the MoonTanya Tadaq - SpricktandNamn som nämns i podcasten, Marie Lavaue, Weleda, Granna, Vestior, Madame Blavatsky, Rudolf Steiner, Guido von List, Gerald Gardner, Diane Fortune, Alistair CrowleyLjudproduktion: Theresia Billberg Redaktion: Rebecca Tiger, Veronica Näslund, Olof Lindqvist och Emilia BlomVill du stötta oss? Bli Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/formodrarsmaktSnacka med likasinnade: Eftersnacksgruppen på FacebookGillar du musiken i podden? Musiken skapad av Eldin Earth WitchKontakt: www.formodrarsmakt.comFörmödrars Makt en Podcast grundad av Rebecca Tiger och Elin Bååth 2020 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The real culture war isn't new—it began in the 1880s. Are you choosing liberation or obedience?--- Join and support the community: https://www.creationspaths.com/In this episode, Charlie and Brian explore a deep-rooted cultural and spiritual transformation that began in the late 19th century, focusing on figures like Aleister Crowley, Gerald Gardner, and Ross Nichols. These esoteric thinkers and spiritual leaders challenged traditional, hierarchical, and ascetic religious models by promoting personal liberation, initiatory experiences, and direct participation in spiritual mysteries. Their work helped shape the modern Pagan, Druid, and magical movements, breaking away from rigid structures of control.Charlie argues that we are in the midst of the real culture war, which isn't about religion versus secularism but rather freedom and self-discovery versus obedience and authoritarianism. They discuss how these shifts in philosophy, psychology, and spirituality were foundational in the rise of New Age movements, the counterculture of the 1960s, and ongoing struggles for social justice today.The conversation also covers the historical impact of the Second Axial Age (1880s–1960s), the influence of Thelema and Wicca, the rise of feminism in esoteric traditions, and the fundamentalist backlash against spiritual freedom. They encourage listeners to reflect on their own spiritual paths and advocate for liberation over dogmatic control.Charlie and Brian conclude by emphasizing the importance of resisting high-control religious and societal structures while fostering personal and collective empowerment through spiritual exploration, self-realization, and community-driven movements.Thank you for Liking and Subscribing to this podcastThank you for sharing this episode with your loved ones, friends and community--- Thank you for Tips or Donations:https://ko-fi.com/cedorsetthttps://patreon.com/cedorsett$CreationsPathsSubstack: https://www.creationspaths.com/For all of the things we are doing at The Seraphic Grove go to Creation's Paths https://www.creationspaths.com/For Educational Resource: https://wisdomscry.com Guided Meditations Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLV0C8kiTKv0J2QAAlD1uaIJvQ3Sr9sIqOChristopagan Playlist:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLV0C8kiTKv0ISXDQkZBRB7EHrUUJgXlGNThe Everything Playlist:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLV0C8kiTKv0Ln3eGW-tDk2R68PM6c182OCreation's Paths Podcast: http://www.creationspaths.com/podcastChurch of the Oak Podcast: http://churchoftheoak.com/Hallowstead Podcast: http://hallowstead.com/Social Connections:BlueSky https://bsky.app/profile/creationspaths.comThreads https://www.threads.net/@creationspathsInstagram https://www.instagram.com/creationspaths/Chapters:00:00 Introduction: The Common Thread of Crowley, Nichols, and Gardner00:57 Meet the Hosts: Charlie and Brian01:13 Who Were Crowley, Gardner, and Nichols?02:00 The Paradigm Shift in Spirituality03:20 The Second Axial Age: A New Era of Thought05:16 The Rise of Participatory Spirituality09:48 The Real Culture War: Liberation vs. Control16:14 The Influence of Crowley and the Aquarian Age19:39 Modern Implications and the Fight for Freedom31:25 Conclusion: Embracing Liberation and Community Get full access to Creation's Paths at www.creationspaths.com/subscribe

Oggi accompagna Emeth ai microfoni Enrico della @congregadelpicchioverde, per una puntata interamente dedicata a Gerald Gardner, alla nascita della Wicca e alle influenze culturali che hanno contribuito alla sua formazione. Gerald Gardner (1884-1964) è noto come il "padre della Wicca", ma la sua storia è ben più complessa e affascinante di quanto comunemente si creda. Sapevate, ad esempio, che aveva una passione per le armi bianche rituali e scrisse un saggio sui celebri kris malesiani? Oppure che fu “strega residente” presso il Museum of Witchcraft di Cecil Williamson? O ancora, che morì su una nave da crociera in Turchia? Dietro al mito – e alla mistificazione – si cela una figura poliedrica, profondamente interessata alla spiritualità e alle religioni "pagane". Il suo percorso si intreccia con la Folklore Society, fondata nel 1878 per lo studio e la rivitalizzazione delle tradizioni popolari britanniche, e con diverse correnti esoteriche del suo tempo, tra cui la Confraternita di Crotone dell'Ordine della Rosa Croce e l'Ordo Templi Orientis. In questa puntata scegliamo una prospettiva diversa dal solito: anziché concentrarci sulla New Forest Coven, sulle dispute riguardo alla sua reale esistenza e sulla natura delle sue attività, poniamo Gardner al centro della narrazione come uomo, esplorando il modo in cui la sua storia personale e i suoi interessi influenzarono la neonata Wicca. Enrico, da iniziato e sacerdote, ci aiuta inoltre a chiarire alcuni fraintendimenti comuni sulla Wicca, spesso dovuti a una lettura distorta di quello che è stato il suo sviluppo successivo. Infatti, col tempo, elementi estranei alla visione originaria di Gardner sono stati assimilati in modo improprio, contribuendo a fraintendimenti sulla natura di questa religione estatica, ancora alla ricerca di un consolidamento della propria identità. Potete contattare Enrico e la Congrega del Picchio Verde attraverso i social: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠ Email: cerchiopiceno@gmail.com +++ SCOPRI NEXUS ARCANUM CONTATTI, CONTENUTI & NOVITA' -> ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Qui⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Iscriviti a Patreon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Se vuoi fare una donazione: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠paypal.me/nexusarcanum⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ PODCAST INSIEME? ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Leggi il bando!⁠⁠⁠

We begin a four-part series on the Elementals, popularized by the likes of Levi, Paracelsus, and Gerald Gardner

In this episode, we delve into the rich traditions of Samhain in Contemporary Paganism. Often referred to as the "Witches' New Year," Samhain is celebrated as a time when the veil between the worlds of the living and the dead is thinnest, making it ideal for communicating with ancestors and performing powerful rituals of transformation. We explore how Gerald Gardner, the founder of modern Wicca, revived Samhain within the Pagan Wheel of the Year, blending folklore, ceremonial magic, and the seasonal cycles to craft a new esoteric meaning for this ancient festival. We cover the significance of ancestor veneration, divination practices, shadow work during Samhain, and how Pagans set up their altars with symbols of death and renewal. We also look closer at public and private Samhain celebrations, the roles of death deities like Hecate, the Morrigan, and Anubis, and unique rituals such as the Dumb Supper. CONNECT & SUPPORT

Modern witchcraft and druidry: Ancient origins, evolving practices—discover the real story! --> Join and support the community: https://www.creationspaths.com/ This episode delves into the origins of modern witchcraft, Wicca, and druidry, offering a nuanced exploration of these spiritual paths. Charlie and Brian discuss how contemporary practices of paganism, Christopaganism, and druidry are both modern and ancient, touching on figures like Ross Nichols, Gerald Gardner, and Aleister Crowley, who significantly shaped modern iterations of these traditions. They also emphasize that while many spiritual practices today are relatively new, this does not diminish their value. The hosts stress the importance of evolving magic and spirituality while respecting historical roots, offering a reflective conversation on lineage, authenticity, and personal practice. The episode calls for inclusivity in spiritual traditions and encourages listeners to build their practices in ways that are relevant and meaningful to them, without being tied solely to antiquity. Thank you for Liking and Subscribing to this podcast Thank you for sharing this episode with your loved ones, friends and community --> Thank you for Tips or Donations: https://ko-fi.com/cedorsett https://patreon.com/cedorsett Substack: https://www.creationspaths.com/ For all of the things we are doing at The Seraphic Grove go to Creation's Paths https://www.creationspaths.com/ For Educational Resource: https://wisdomscry.com Guided Meditations Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLV0C8kiTKv0J2QAAlD1uaIJvQ3Sr9sIqO Christopagan Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLV0C8kiTKv0ISXDQkZBRB7EHrUUJgXlGN The Everything Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLV0C8kiTKv0Ln3eGW-tDk2R68PM6c182O Creation's Paths Podcast: http://www.creationspaths.com/podcast Church of the Oak Podcast: http://churchoftheoak.com/ Hallowstead Podcast: http://hallowstead.com/ Social Connections: BlueSky https://bsky.app/profile/creationspaths.com Threads https://www.threads.net/@creationspaths Instagram https://www.instagram.com/creationspaths/ ## Chapters: 00:00 Introduction to Modern Witchcraft and Druidry 00:34 Meet the Hosts: Charlie and Brian 00:45 The Revival of Paganism 01:23 Origins of Modern Witchcraft and Druidry 02:58 Influential Figures in Modern Paganism 04:09 The Evolution of Pagan Practices 06:38 The Role of Historical Accuracy in Modern Practices 10:53 Modern Interpretations and Practices 11:37 Controversies and Misconceptions 12:57 Animal Sacrifice in Historical Context 13:47 Christianity and Human Sacrifice 14:42 Exploring the Concept of Sacrifice 14:58 Modern vs. Ancient Magic Practices 15:52 The Value of Tradition and Experimentation 16:43 The Antiquity of Faith and Its Impact 22:28 The Importance of Inclusivity in Traditions 25:20 Engaging with the Audience 26:36 Supporting the Channel and Final Thoughts

Join Charlie and Brian as they dive deep into the Druid craft concept of the Law of the Returning Tide, distinguishing it from commonly misunderstood spiritual principles like karma. They explore how our actions and intentions influence the energy that comes back to us, emphasizing the importance of mindful contributions to the universe. Learn about the balance of faith, action, and intention in shaping our realities and the limits of our influence over the unfolding tides of life. Discover practical exercises to experience the returning tide in daily life and understand the broader impacts of our energetic and material contributions.Support us on: https://ko-fi.com/cedorsettBecome a patron of the arts patreon.com/cedorsettFor Educational Resource: Wisdoms Cry https://wisdomscry.comFor all of the things we are doing at The Seraphic Grove go to Creation's Paths https://www.creationspaths.com/BlueSky https://bsky.app/profile/creationspaths.comThreads https://www.threads.net/@creationspathsInstagram https://www.instagram.com/creationspaths/Chapters:00:00 Introduction to the Law of the Returning Tide01:05 Meet the Hosts: Charlie and Brian01:23 Understanding the Returning Tide vs. Karma02:22 Misconceptions and Cultural Appropriation03:53 The Returning Tide Analogy08:09 Magic, Prayer, and Influence13:54 Practical Exercises for Compassionate Acts15:00 The Ripple Effect of Joy15:45 The Power of Returning Tide16:15 The Illusion of Control17:02 Surrounding Yourself with Positive Energy18:45 Faith and Action: A Necessary Combination21:46 Miracles and Effort24:26 The Reality of Good and Bad Events26:20 Conclusion and Call to ActionTranscript:Charlie: [00:00:00] This is not an episode about karma. We're going to be talking about something that sounds a lot like karma. But karma is a Hindu idea. And we're talking about something from Druid craft. We're going to be talking about the law of the returning tide. And how it can help you. Understand. So much of what happens in your life. In a way that is vitally important. And easily misunderstood. While you're going to be tempted to go, oh, They're talking about karma. Please. Wipe your mind of anything that you've heard before. So that we can have a fresh. Valid discussion of this topic. So that you can actually find out how it can help you. Today, we're talking. About the law of the returning type. Brian: [00:01:00] Insert intro here. Charlie: Hello, my name is Charlie. I am a non-binary sci-fi fantasy writer. And I'm joined today by my husband, Brian. Brian - New: I feel like Dr. Evil, there is a very insistent cat right now so I'm sitting here petting the kitty cat. Charlie: Which is oddly appropriate for what we're going to be talking about today. Today, we are going to be talking about the law of the returning tide. If you want to know more about this, I highly recommend Phillip Carr-Gomm's, wonderful book, Druid craft. Which is his attempt to bring back together the divergent paths of Wicca and Druidry that started together with two friends. Gerald Gardner and Ross Nichols. And. Diverged. Very far away from each other. With some issues in between. And he's trying to bring them back together in a way that I find oddly compelling. I am not a duotheist and the book [00:02:00] does have a lot of duotheistic ideas in it, but that is kind of core to traditional Wicca. Beyond that I highly recommend the book I really like it a lot. This language. Of the law of the returning tide. I find very, very helpful. In understanding what is probably one of the most misunderstood spiritual principles out there. And this is phrased a lot of different ways. Often it's shorthanded as karma. And it is not karma. Karma is a very complex idea that arises from both Hinduism and Buddhism. And that is not what we're talking about here. We're also not talking about dependent origination. That is , again, a very complex idea. That is found in Buddhism. We'll probably talk about that in a future episode at some point, but again, that's not what we're talking about here. Other shorthands that you might be familiar with for this? You get what you give. Reaping the whirlwind. We have a lot of [00:03:00] phrases for this idea of what you put out into the world comes back to you. On a basic level. Yes. I agree with this. asterisk. Big asterisk. x so big. It's bigger than the phrase that came before it. Because this is a very misunderstood. Misappropriated. CulturallY. appropriated. Idea. That if misunderstood does. Far more harm than good. Because this is how we justify bad things happen. We've said, oh, you get what you get. Brian - New: Yeah. Chickens coming home to roost. Charlie: That is not the law of the returning type. That is not what we're talking about here. That is something that. I want us to learn to let go of. And let it drift away. On the tide and never come back. So the analogy of the returning tide. Helps us. In that, yes. What you put out into the [00:04:00] universe, you will get back. If you put good out into the universe, Goodwill often come back to you. If you put bad out into the universe, bad will often come back to you. If you put up joy, you will reap joy. If you put out. Sorrow and misery sorrow and misery will come back. Yes. All of that is technically true. The problem is. Everything we put out into the universe is like a message in a bottle. You put whatever this intention is, these actions are, they go into the bottle and we throw them out into the ocean and the waves carry them out. And Lord knows. And I mean that quite literally only God knows. Where they're going to come back to shore. Brian (2): Well, it's like with the chickens coming home to roost analogy. First of all, if you don't put out chicken feed, they're not going to want to come back. If you don't have a chicken coop they're not going to want to come back. If there are no chickens they will not come home to roost. There are a lot of other factors involved. Charlie: And also it's not necessarily your chickens that are [00:05:00] coming back. Brian (2): Yeah. This could be your neighbor's chickens, Charlie: we had a rooster for a long time in our yard. We never bought chickens. We have not had chickens, but it got out of one of our neighbor's yards. I don't know what neighbor had that rooster. I don't know where that rooster came from. But it lived in our garage. It. Went around our yard all the time. It claimed our yard is its own. It was our. For all intents and purposes, people thought it was our rooster. We got comments from several of the neighbors about our rooster, doing things in there, their yards, not our rooster don't know where the rooster came from. But it showed up one day. And we had a rooster. We didn't have any other chickens, but we had a rooster. This analogy of our actions being like a message in a bottle. And this idea of the returning tide. All of the energy that we put out into the cosmos, whether it's good, bad. Anything in between. It goes out. But it [00:06:00] mixes. With all of the other energies out there. There is this spiritual and I use this word a lot. Solipsism solipsism is a stage of development that most people grow out of. And you, if you've ever been around children, You know, this phase, it's usually around two years old. Me me, me, me, me, me, me, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine. Where a child is individuating for the first time. They're realizing, oh, I am a separate self. And all of a sudden. Everything is about me and everything is mine. And you see this in kids and most people grow out of it. Brian - New: Which doesn't mean it's gone. Everybody has it to some degree still to this very day. We all have it at some level. Charlie: When I talk about spiritual solipsism. This is there's this idea of, I will manifest good things in my life by only putting good things out and only good things will return to me. And if bad things come out that's because I didn't manifest [00:07:00] enough good things in my life. Brian - New: Or one of my favorite examples is praying for my sports team to win. Therefore they should win, or I am not with God or God is not with me. Completely negating the fact that many other fans pray for their team to win and pray for your team to lose. Charlie: Yeah. Brian - New: Many people probably prayed over the winning and losing of that team in that particular event. That's the thing. Charlie: So learning to understand the great cosmic ocean. That we are on the shore of really will help you to get a better sense. Of what we're talking about. Energetically. Magically. This is where I think a lot of people misunderstand magic. And. Yeah, some of that comes from , The movies that are out there, the video games, the. Stuff that's out there where a wizard cast, a spell and amazing things happen, or you cast a spell and it always occurs that way. Or what have you [00:08:00] write that? If I say these magic words in this proper way, and we move my hands just right with the right ingredients. I will have consistent. Results. As somebody who has practiced magic for most of my life, Magic works. Magic is real. But magic is a hedge on a bet. It is not guaranteeing the outcome of an event. I know some people get really weird when I use the term magic and they just want me to talk about prayer and Providence. And it's all magic. I'm sorry. It's all. A prayer is a spell by another name, a spell as a prayer by another name. If we're not going to be honest. I don't know what the point of spirituality is. I can show you a prayer book and I can show you a grimoire. And if I don't tell you, which is which. You will be hard pressed to tell the difference between them until you get to like magic squares and sigils and stuff. Spells are prayers, incantations are prayers. The difference between an [00:09:00] incantation and an invocation is that we call them different things. Don't get put off by the word magic. Magic is all around us. Magic. Permeates everything. Everything is run by magic. And magic is not. Illogical. It is super rational. In other words, it's it is beyond our rational minds to understand. In that, how does quantum physics work? I'm not equating magic with quantum physics. A lot of people make that mistake. That is a mistake. Don't do that. I'm just saying. Quantum physics is kind of magic because it is order a rising from chaos. How does that work? We have some math that shows us. How to predict. How it will most likely work, but again, how does order arise from chaos? I don't know that we will ever have a. Good rational. Understanding of that. But it does happen. Magic has the same thing. Whether it's a [00:10:00] psychological phenomenon where we get ourselves hyped up to the point where we're able to take actions that we normally wouldn't have, or we are actually affecting the energies of the cosmos to cause great things to happen to me, six of one, half a dozen of the other, I don't really. I have a great caring concern, whether or not. There is immense magical power flowing through the universe, or if it's a psychological trick that I can play on my brain. To help me achieve the things that I want to achieve. The point and purposes, is it working? Brian: It's like with our favorite weather wizard. To find the divination, to determine what the weather will be in a few days. For an old. Druid, thousands of years ago to your weather person trying using divining, what the weather will be in a few days from all these predictive models, is basically the same. This is really similar arts and it's all magic. That's all probabilities. Charlie: Our weather. Wizard is a local weatherman that we really like to watch grant date. Who. Will has often very [00:11:00] accurately pointed to a place on a map and said in a couple of days, there are going to be tornadoes right here. And so you need to be watching out. And be very, very mindful and right where his finger is on the map. Is where tornado at turn attic activity will happen. And his predictions are shockingly accurate and he will often predict before the national weather service. Like he has a very good gut instinct. Looking at. All of the probabilities where things will come out. And that is a part of this. And that is part of what we're talking about here with this idea of the law of the returning tide. He's able to see these waves coming to shore. And he's able to predict where they're going to be. That's a lot of what we're trained to do in the work. We have no control over whether or not there's going to be a storm surge. Whether there's going to be a high tide or low tide. The moon controls, whether there's a high tide or low tide. And also our productivity to the moon because. Depending [00:12:00] on where the moon is in its orbit. It's either closer to the earth or further away from the earth that determines a lot of how high and low the tides are. There are a lot of complex things outside of our control. That are involved in. How tights work if a high tide is coming and a storm is coming that high tide has the potential to be devastating. To the coast. This is where the analogy of the returning tide. Helps us to understand the reality that we're living in and get out of this. Main character syndrome that a lot of us have in spirituality where I can manifest, I have the power. Like there's so much He-Man and the masters of the universe energy in all of these movements, right. Ah, I have the power. Uh, no. No, you don't, you don't. None of us. Do we have influence? We have some power. We're not power less. It's back to [00:13:00] humility, which we've been talking about a lot on this podcast. Brian - New: There is a space to be occupied. But know that understanding and knowing how much and what that is. It is very important. Charlie: The returning tide is the tide that carries back in what was through what was put out. So this is where it's very important for us to be mindful of what we are putting out into the universe, because this is true. If you are always a grumpy Gus. Then people are going to start treating you as if you're the one who's always grumpy. You will. Reap what you sow. The phrase becomes very appropriate there. If you're always the somber sad one, if you're the one that's always joking and laughing. This is what people come to expect of you. So what you're putting out is what you will receive back. People will treat you in kind if you're always the silly one. People will find it harder to take you seriously when you are being serious, because they expect you to be silly. Brian - New: I'm gonna have to start calling these Brian's exercise opportunities or something. I love little exercises that everybody can do in their daily [00:14:00] lives. It's wonderful moments to, to test things. I'm very big fan of prove all things and hold onto that, which is true. I came across this actually more through, compassionate practices. The. Act of giving. , gratitude and giving compassionate acts in acknowledgement that they will return in their own time and place in manner without an expectation of any specific reward. Through this exercise. One thing you could do is pick a day, when you have to go shopping and do a bunch of tours in town, when you're in it in public interacting with a lot of people. Set your intention. And remind yourself constantly throughout that day, you are going to be giving compassionate acts at every opportunity. Without expectation of reward, but with realizing through faith, that they will manifest in their own time and manner. Do this throughout the day and just observe, just watch, take the opportunities to watch what happens . A lot of times, it's just that simple. Thank you. Or that simple smile. Or in a joyful moment celebrated between two individuals yourself and the person. Charlie: An honest, sincere non-creepy compliment Brian - New: I couldn't tell you the number of times. I would pass a compassionate act to somebody in the store. Checking out, picking up some groceries or something and then watch them later on, pass it to the person checking them out [00:15:00] at the register. Latter for me to go through the register and them to smile back at me. And be like, this is that law of returning tide. I gave out joy. While I was picking stuff out of the aisle, that person then had joy. Adding more joy that they pass to the person checking out. The person checking out. Gave that to more multiple people while checking out, which probably rippled even beyond there. 'because they probably pass joy along the others . It's absolutely fascinating. Charlie: It really is. And it's something. That we can see, we can demonstrate through like what Brian is talking about here. We should be testing all things and holding to that, which is true. Also always bearing in mind. You are not the only one putting energy intention. And actions out into the world. This, I keep saying this, and I'm going to sound like a broken record throughout this episode. But. This is why the re the idea of the returning tide is so powerful because it reminds us. We're getting back on our shore on a little [00:16:00] bit of shoreline. All of that. That has been put out. All of that coming back. In big ways in little ways. But it's all coming back. You may not have. Put. Poisons into the water. But if somebody put poisons into the water, That water will come back into the tide and can make you sick. And I think this is where. Especially in spiritual practice, people run into error. And into danger. They start thinking that they can somehow put a Brita water filter on their shoreline. That will keep all of the bad things that other people are putting out in the water. From coming ashore. On their patch of beach. I would love to say that that's true. I would love to say that we can do that. And we kind of can't. I cannot. You can not. Now notice the. The language there because that's, what's very [00:17:00] important. T Put out those filters. When you surround yourself by people that are putting those positive energies out. That are putting out that those. Ambitions those intentions, those actions for change. For blessing for good things in the environment and in the world. You're more likely to. Get back in the returning tide. This is why it's important to surround yourself with people that are putting out that energy that you want to get back. ' cause it's hedging your bets. If you're all pouring freshwater. Clean water. Out. And there's a sewer. Pipe. Down stream. You're more likely to get the freshwater. If everyone around you is pouring fresh water in. It's going to push. That dirty water a little bit further out. So maybe it'll sloosh by. But that dirty water is still out there. You may get a filtered version of that dirty water, but that dirty water is still going to splash back on this. [00:18:00] We can hedge our bets and making sure that we're building good communities. Good friendships, strong families, strong relationships with people that are putting out those good energies, those good intentions, those good actions and notice. This Trinity that I keep putting together because it is the energy that we are putting out. Which involves our intention. Our will. Our actual. Effort we're putting into the thing? Our intentions, which is both our mindset and our motivation for doing things. If you're just doing something good to get something back. That we can set the intention. And also our actions, our actions. I need to say this. Like a thousand times. I get so frustrated with the manifestation movement, because they're like, I'm going to manifest a job. So I'm going to say a little words. I'm maybe gonna write a little blessing card. I'm going to put it on my alter and it will just bring a new job to [00:19:00] know if you're not putting in job applications. If drop applications, aren't going out on the exiting tide. Jobs are not going to come in on the returning tide. Because action is required. As I quote the apostle James said, faith without works is dead. You have to take action. It's one thing to believe. It's one thing to hope and pray and try to manifest something right. It's the thing. I think people get raw wrong with the idea of can faith heal you? Yes. Faith can heal you, but also go to your doctor. Get the best treatments that you can. Because together. Healing is much more likely. When we're reading stories about first century healers and Jesus was a first century healer. He was. One of many first century healers. We're reading the best that they had for medicine. Let's put a little honey on this. Let's put a little olive oil on this. This was the best medicine they had at the time. It's not that olive oil is magic and we just need to go back to [00:20:00] the old ways. Sometimes we do need to go back to the old ways because they knew something that we didn't. Right. Why was beer considered health healthy for a lot of people? Because of the microbiome that was within it. Why is kombucha so considered healthy and was given to people? Why was this certain soups and teas and tinctures? We're now learning scientifically. That, whether it's the chemistry of it, whether it's the minerals and vitamins that are in it, whether it's the microbiome that it fosters, that's in it. Yeah, a lot of these treatments did have a blessing and brought good healing to a person. We've also progressed and we have vaccines and we have various other medicines that can bring healing. So when you're putting all of your pot, just in faith, okay. But there are three things that we should be putting out. Faith is only one of them. Brian - New: I think about, the Centurion who wanted to heal his servant. And Jesus said, it's your faith that healed him. The thing was there [00:21:00] was also works and everyone forgets. This interior. If you had already had faith. Then it certainly would have been healed without Jesus saying anything without him even having to go to Jesus . He did the work of going over and talking to. Worked his way through a crowd and approached Jesus and said, Hey. this dude's sick and needs help. Charlie: Probably learned that the. Local language because there's a very good. The odds that Jesus spoke quite a Greek or Latin. Are slim to none. Jesus probably spoke Galileo in Aramaic. Brian - New: At its basic level, there was still work. because he didn't just sit in the room and go. Magically my servent, this healing, like there was work along with it. Part of faith is the works. You had to physically go and talk to Jesus . . Charlie: This is not us saying miracles don't happen. Yeah, my, my grandfather had broken his spine. They told him he would never walk again. I went to the Basilica of St. Jude in, Baltimore and lit a candle for him and my [00:22:00] grandfather got up and went to the bathroom because he needed to pee. And they all went. You're walking. That's not my faith that cured him. Maybe it was St. Jude. I've put a lot of benefit of the doubt in St. Jude. For this cause St. Jude has worked a lot of miracles in my life and the lives of people that I know. If grandpa hadn't tried to get up. Oh, grandpa Jake. Hadn't tried to get up. Then he wouldn't have walked. what cured him? Was it faith? Was it him not being as injured as the doctors originally thought. Was. W they misinterpreting , the x-rays and the other scans that they did on him. I don't know. He couldn't feel his feet. He had no sensation from the waist down. They were pretty sure. He was paralyzed. And he just just got up, went to the bathroom. That's a miracle. I bring that up miracles do happen. But you never want to rely on a miracle. We could often. Help miracles happen. By taking action. And putting things out. Into that [00:23:00] water. Into that ocean. So that we can reap that tide that we want. We need to learn in our own environment. If we don't want the red tide coming in. Maybe we shouldn't be putting those fertilizers and other things out into the water. There are things that we can do that will affect what we bring back on that tide. Concrete actions, material, physical actions we can take. There are. Subtle intentional actions we can take. And there are just energetic efforts that we can take. And that's energetic efforts as in. Both like magical, woo-hoo putting energy out into the world, but also the effort that we put into a thing. Into taking the physical actions. They can bring back the good into our lives. And if we're not doing all three. To the best of our ability. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying everybody has the same ability. I have a lot of physical ailments and issues. That make it not easy for me to just get up and walk and get up and do things. And what have you, [00:24:00] I understand that. But if you don't try. If you're not putting, in what effort you can. Put it. And don't let anybody else tell you what you are capable of doing. Because people don't always know. But if you've got to put in that effort, you have to put in that energy and you have to put in that action. And that's how you bring back those blessings on the returning tide. And sometimes that returning tide. Brings. What washes up a dead whale. Sometimes something bad washes in on that tide, the red tide comes in. There's an algal bloom. I think if you're, especially if you're living in the United States and elsewhere around the world, we've seen that red tide coming in. that algalbloom. That's just poisoning the water. And putting fumes out near rotating our eyes. That is not because you're a bad person. If bad things only happen to bad people. The world would be a very different place. And this is where again, to go to the teachings of Jesus. Did the tower, when the tower of Salem fell, did the [00:25:00] rocks only hit the wicked. Jesus asked this question because the great green tower collapsed. And killed a bunch of people. When the tower asylum collapsed. Did it only kill the wicked? No. God causes rain to fall. On the, just, and the unjust. Good things happen to. Bad people, bad things happen to good people. And to try to simplify all of this down to if you're a good person, good things will happen to you. Is a lie. Straight from the mouth of the devil. That is put out into the world. So that person can take advantage of you. I don't think I can say it any clearer than that. Good things happen to bad people. Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people. All we can do is hedge our bets. We can do what we can to put. Good things out into the ocean. So that good things come back and the returning time. Beyond that. It's out of our control. It is so far [00:26:00] out of our control. That's why I love this analogy so much. It helps us to have that humility. To put things in their proper place. Of what we can control. And what we can't control. Sometimes. We want to take. Far more credit than we deserve. Or blame. But that's a whole other topic. I hope you've enjoyed this episode. I hope that you have learned something about the law of the returning tide. About karma about whatever you have grown up calling this. I really like. Phillip Carr-Gomm's. Law of the returning tide. I love that phrase. If you have learned something and you think somebody else might get something out of this, please share. This episode. If you're listening to us by email for the email on to somebody else, if you're listening to us on Spotify or. YouTube or wherever, and they have a like button like us. If you're listening to us on a podcast app that lets you leave a review, like apple podcasts. [00:27:00] Those reviews are extremely helpful. And those ratings are extremely helpful in getting this podcast to more people. Please leave a rating, leave a review. They're far more helpful than you think they are. It helps the machine know. That, Hey, this is something of quality that maybe I should spread to other people. While you're doing all that. If you have a few pennies that you can cast our way. If you head over to https://www.creationspaths.com/, you can join there. We'd love to have you there. We'd love to hear your comments. Have you be part of the community? You can also support us over on patreon.com/cedorsett and https://ko-fi.com/cedorsett. I'm CE Dorset on both. And that goes to support everything I do from the stories to the music. To these podcasts and everything else. Brian - New: That's where you can leave a tip or donate. Yup. Whatever you like using the best. Charlie: So, thank you so, so much for being here. And until next time. I made the blessings of the light ever shine upon you. Amen. Brian: [00:28:00] Amen. Get full access to Creation's Paths at www.creationspaths.com/subscribe

On this spellbinding episode of History For Weirdos, Stephanie explores a fascinating and often overlooked corner of World War II history: the role of English witchcraft in the fight against Nazi Germany. Join us as we delve into the enchanting world of Gerald Gardner and the New Forest Coven, a group of witches who gathered in a moonlit forest to cast a spell aimed at stopping Hitler and thwarting his plans for world domination. Did their magical efforts make a difference? Were these witches simply practicing harmless folklore, or did their "Cone of Power" play a role in the Allies' eventual victory? Tune in to discover the captivating story of these mystical resisters and the enduring power of belief in the face of evil. We'll uncover the historical context, the rituals, and the personalities involved, exploring the intriguing intersection of magic, folklore, and wartime resistance. Get ready for a bewitching episode that will leave you questioning everything you thought you knew about the fight against Hitler. - **Pick July's theme here!

The Balance Factor! Hear how this concept relates to the more broader concept of "magic" in Satanism, which of course means first addressing some misconceptions about Satanic magic itself. Also, answering some listener mail about the "LaVeyan Satanism" misnomer, a history-confused Wiccan, and other questions. 00:00 - Intro 00:56 - Rust's email 02:06 - What is "The Balance Factor"? Working definition from We Are Satanists. 04:18 - Recap: Satanism is a non-theistic religion and this isn't supernatural. RTFM. 09:50 - The Balance Factor, and greater magic for "that remaining push needed" 13:38 - The Satanic BIble on "The Balance Factor" 18:12 - Bill's "ribbon-cutting ceremony" analogy 26:48 - "My Wiccan girlfriend says you should call yourselves 'neo-Satanists'!" 32:00 - Why the term "LaVeyan Satanism" is a misnomer    

Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com ----more---- Mark: Welcome back to The Wonder, Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark. Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: And today we are talking about golden ages of the past and as well as turning to look at golden visions of the future. Yucca: Yeah. I think this is going to be a fun one. We were saying right before we hit record, it's it's a right for tangents as well. Mark: yes, yeah, I imagine we're gonna, we're gonna fall down some rabbit holes on this for sure. Where this originally came from was a conversation that we had in one of the atheopagan community Zoom mixers that happens on Thursday nights, and, or and Michael, who is a member of the Atheopagan Society Council, raised this as a topic and he pasted into the chat a sort of semi facetious myth That many in the mainstream pagan community seem to embrace, which is this idea that once upon a time way back before before the Bronze Age, sometime in the late Either the Copper Age or the Late Stone Age, that there were people living in Asia Minor and in Europe who lived peacefully and in an egalitarian society where that were not characterized by patriarchy and where things were very groovy. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: That patriarchy came along with these bronze sword wielding invaders and the result was militarism and class stratification and eventually the snowball that led us to capitalism and to where we are today.  Yucca: Very familiar with the story and the narrative. It pops up in a lot of different forms. Mark: It certainly does. And it's a compelling narrative, right? Because part of what it tells us is it's not inherent in humans to be the way we are now, Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: you know, that having a male dominated society is not just a human thing, that it's A cultural thing that took over Yucca: Mm Mark: from something that preceded it. And so it's understandable why that's appealing, because it offers hope, right? It says, well, we could get out from what we're in now. We could move in another direction. So, there's a lot of this backward looking, kind of nostalgic glow in these sort of root myths that inform much of modern paganism. Would you agree with that? Yucca: I think so. And I think that there's also the more recent ideas of the unbroken line of Grandmothers practicing this witchy tradition that was secret, but it survived through, you know, all of the Christian takeover and, and all of this and that, that connects in a little bit with an idea that we have that something that's old is automatically good. Or, automatically has more authority because it's an older idea. Mark: Right, that it's valid, because it's persistent, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: right, because it's lasted for a long time, it must have some kind of validity. Yeah, that's a really good point, and it's definitely something that crops up a lot in arguments about religion generally, not just about paganism or witchcraft. Yucca: Right. Mark: Of course, that was Gerald Gardner's story. Right, Gerald Gardner, the creator of Wicca although he claimed that he wasn't the creator of Wicca, he claimed that he was initiated into a lineage of, an unbroken lineage extending back into the mists of time of this tradition of witchcraft. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: maybe he believed that, maybe he didn't, but it's been pretty well established that it's not true. Yucca: Right. Mark: there's a, there's a book by the, the, pagan and witchcraft scholar Ronald Hutton, called The Triumph of the Moon, which very thoroughly and meticulously goes over all the different threads of this and establishes there's not really much there there. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: Great book, great book, highly recommend it. So, so that's another of these, you know, these stories about antiquity. Holding a different way of being that we, that we need to grab onto and try to work our way back to, right? Yucca: Right. Mark: And I was thinking about the Norse traditions, the, the heathen traditions as well. And in that case, what seems to be lionized most is Vikings, right? There's just a whole lot about Vikings. Yucca: Mm hmm. Which I get! Very, very, like, appealing visuals, and Feelings and aesthetics, and yeah, Mark: adventurous, and there's all these sort of macho, warlike values of honor and courage and strength and duty and all that kind of stuff that are all, you know, I mean, they're very macho, but they're, but they're, they're good Yucca: I get the appeal. Yeah, Mark: Yeah, I totally do, too, Yucca: I think that those are, that those can be, can be really good values, right? I don't think we should throw the baby out with bathwater with that, but you know, there's potential with anything for abuse, but you know, those are some pretty, those have their place, Mark: Yeah, yeah. But once again, it's rose colored glasses, right? It ignores the fact that people who went Viking, which was a verb, not a noun you know, you went Viking they were farmers most of the year. I mean, they were just working the soil like everybody else and, you know, getting food. And, you know, they were farmers and they were traders and, you know, all that good kind of stuff. Which is, you know, a much less heroic kind of myth than, you know, paddling an open boat across the North Sea to, you know, to, to strike into foreign lands and, you know, take stuff. And I can understand why that part of the story doesn't really get included so much but here we are, we're on a tangent, right? But still, it's about golden pasts. Yucca: Right. Mark: So, Michael's host, Michael's, you know, quote that he put in the chat was very thought provoking because as we learn more, it becomes pretty clear that none of these golden era of the past myths is likely to be very true. There are kernels of truth Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: them. I mean, have, have there been women that were herbalists and knew natural cures for things in an unbroken line since the time of Arwen? Antiquity? Certainly. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah, of course there have. Now, were they practicing a particular kind of religious framework around that? Probably not.  Yucca: Probably changed with the time as the society around them changed, and their view of the world changed, and, right? Yeah. Mark: I mean, you know, it's like, did it make that much of a difference whether you invoked some goddess when you tied on a poultice or whether you invoked some saint? It, you know, it may, it may have been exactly the same thing. So, There's all this past stuff and that, that led to a very thought provoking conversation about kind of the nature of nostalgia Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: and this, this very human quality that we have of looking back on times in the past and seeing them fondly, even if they were terrible. Yucca: Right. Even if we lived through them, or, but especially the ones that we didn't. I saw a short video recently of she looked like You know, maybe 16, 17 year old talking about how she was born in the wrong era, that she should have been from the 80s, right? And I remember, you know, being a teenager and, and the kids around me going like, Oh, we should have been hippies. We were meant to be hippies from the 60s. And it's, I think people just do that. Yeah. Even if it's, of course, in the 90s, the 60s seemed like forever ago. Right. Mark: Yeah it's, it's very funny. I, I mean, I was born in the early 60s, so I have, and my father was in a PhD program on the UCLA campus, so I have Other than memories of events, which I have pretty vividly, like the assassinations and Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: body counts announced on Tuesdays and Thursdays on the news, and, you know, the riots and, you know, a lot of stuff like that, but I remember going to my father's lab And all of the students that were around him, and they were all hippies, they were all, they were all dressed in that particular way because they were college students in the late 19, in the, you know, mid to late 1960s. And there, there is, a flavor of that era that I can remember and that feels, I don't necessarily feel drawn to it, but I feel almost like it's something lost that I wish I could recapture somehow. the same thing is true of the 70s and the 80s. It gets muddy towards the 90s and later than that, and I'm not sure whether that's because we tend to have more nostalgia for times when we're younger, or whether It's because the internet came along and culture got a lot blurrier. Suddenly, I mean, it used to be like, you can recognize music from the 70s and 80s. By the 90s, I mean, there was a swing music movement, and there was all, there was the world music movement, and there was all this, you know, sort of backward looking. Yucca: I, I'm not sure I agree with that, because I think if I hear a 90s pop song on the radio, it instantly is, I can instantly place 90s or 2000s so that I would, I would guess that it is more of a 90s pop song. the age and how old we were when we were engaging with that, rather than becoming less distinctive. Mark: That may very well be the case. I may simply have not been paying as much attention. Yucca: right. Mark: You Yucca: Well, and just being in a, Mark: career by that point. Yucca: yeah, different life stage, and at least my memory of the way time has worked is, it just keeps speeding up. Right? When I was four, that a year was an eternity. A week was so long, and now I'm like, oh yeah, a year, like, you know, and I'm told it keeps getting worse. It just keeps going faster and faster. Mark: does, and I'm not sure whether it's a function of A year being a smaller and smaller proportion of your overall life and memory, or whether it's that we get into routines that cause months to fly by at a time. I'm really not sure what that's about, but it's a little frightening how quickly the years just start to go. And that's one of the reasons why, yeah, probably so, but that's one of the reasons why I feel it's really important to have a ritual practice to create sort of sublime moments. Either by myself or with other people, of shared observation and celebration of life. So that those, those moments stick out. I don't look at the last year and see nothing but just going to work and doing the tasks and stuff. There are special days that, that I remember. Yucca: I think novelty slows us down a little bit, and makes us pay a little more attention. Mark: Yeah, yeah. That's why traveling is so wonderful, right? Yucca: mm hmm. Mark: everything is new. You're in a place that's unfamiliar. And you point yourself towards experiences that are going to be novel, like experiencing museums and cultural events and architecture and art and, you know, being, being in cafes and hearing foreign language around you and, you know, all the various things. And so we tend to have much more detailed memory of times when we travel than we do when we're at home.  So, it seems kind of natural that these sorts of narratives would, would appeal to people. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: And I think that they may have been part of the appeal of paganism for some people. I mean, some people get into it for a vision of a better world. Some people get into it for a desire for magical power. Some people get into it for a desire for connection with and reverence of the natural world, like us. And I think all of those are compelling reasons why people are attracted to modern paganism. And I'm Yucca: combination of those things, too. Mark: absolutely, for Yucca: Yeah. Mark: for sure. Yucca: I think, also, being There's also, for some people, an attraction to being different, right, wanting something that is a little counter cultural, regardless of what the specific values are, but just something different, because whatever it was that they were doing, was not working. And so they're looking for anything that is different than whatever that was. Mark: Yes, and, and paganism specifically works very well for those folks because they tend to be folks that don't fit in very well. And paganism is very, inclusive, by and large. It's very accommodating to people who may be neurodivergent or may be strange or may just be very unique people, right? And what I saw when I first came into paganism was that there was this celebration of the uniqueness of individuals, which is something that I have worked to carry forward in my own pagan work because I think Everybody's amazing, and they all need the opportunity to show their amazingness and to have that affirmed and lifted up. Yucca: Yeah. Well, that's a good lead in to, to thinking about the now, and I guess the golden future, right? We're talking about the golden past. So, what about our visions for the future? Mark: Yeah and, and I should say that I do think that a lot of these golden past narratives, whatever their factuality, I think they're a distraction. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: if they were true, I don't think that matters very much. Because we're not then, and we're never going back then. We're only going to be here, and we're going to go forward into the future. Time doesn't work in a backwards manner, it only goes forward. So, my focus, oh go ahead, Yucca: I, I do think though that there is some value in examining those for looking at what do we value and what do we want to bring forward. So, do we, if we're thinking about, so yes, recognizing that it's probably pretty much a myth about our, our pre Bronze Age egalitarian societies in which, War was not a thing, and there weren't skirmishes and conflict between groups. But seeing that there is a recognizing our longing for that, I think is valuable. I think it's important to, to also recognize that that may not be factual, but that there is value in that. Mmhmm. Mark: certainly, of that we would like to have a world in which there was peace, in which there was inclusiveness, in which there was a better human relationship with the natural world. Yucca: Right. Mark: And, Yucca: hmm. Mm Mark: and one of the things about those myths is that they tell us that it's possible because it happened in the past. Yucca: hmm. Mark: I just choose to believe that it's possible because I think it's, it has to be possible. Yucca: Because we can choose to make it that way. Mm Mark: Yes. And we have chosen as humans to go far afield of that. Even, even in some of the ways that we have really excelled and succeeded as humans, like through science. You know, the newest science is generally applied first to creating weapons. Yucca: hmm. Mark: It's usually applied for figuring out ways to kill people. And that is a very, very sad commentary on the divorce between values and reason. That we have become very effective at applying our reason In problem solving and to understand the nature of the universe, but the concept of ethical constraints around that is, it's very tenuous. I mean, there is a field of scientific ethics, but I haven't seen much example of that actually applying except in the experimental sense. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: It's like, you know, no, we're sorry, you, you can't test this weird dangerous thing on live people, Yucca: Right. Yeah, we've got our review boards that we've got to get past to be able to do human or vertebrate subjects, but that's where it pretty much ends. Mark: yeah  Yucca: you want to do anything with an invertebrate or anything that isn't an animal, and it's, you know, there's, there's no red tape. Mark: yeah. Yeah. So, you know, re rethinking these things in a really deep sense is important. It's really important. And immediately that makes you subject to some accusations of being very unrealistic because you're, you're thinking far beyond the bounds of what the currently constructed society can do. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mm Mark: And and of course also being accused of being radical, right? Because To make those changes would be a radical shift in the way humanity works. Don't think either of those accusations is very persuasive, myself. Yucca: hmm. Mark: I think people are so adaptable, and we have so many examples of cultures that have not been colonized by, or have only been partially colonized by, the Western mindset that has taken over virtually everything. in the world that operate differently, that I believe we do have choices about the way that we go forward. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mm Mark: And it starts with values. It starts with making decisions about what we consider to be sacred and what we consider to be worthy. And where we draw ethical lines around not doing things that we can do, but we really shouldn't. Yucca: hmm. Yeah, agreed. Mark: Because there's an awful lot of stuff that we do that we really just shouldn't do. Yucca: Yeah. Can and should. Those are two different things. Yeah. Mark: And there is a terrible tendency, and I mean, we see this in children. Given the opportunity to make something go boom, Yucca: Oh, not just children. Mark: Yeah, I know, everybody likes to make something go boom. It's it can be really fun. But when the implications are, you know, environmental devastation and, and loss of lives we really need to resist that urge to make things go boom. Yucca: Yeah, we need to maybe get that out of our systems when it's, you know, little pop cans with and vinegar and baking soda and things like that and not do it with, you know, People and buildings and mountains. Mark: And cities, and yeah, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So that's what I think. I think that this vision of the future starts with ideas that are around values, rather than structures. But in order to get those values really to propagate in a mass sense, it is going to take some major structural overhaul of the way humanity operates. And fundamental to that is we have to find an alternative to capitalism that works better for the planet. I think one thing that would help a lot, Would be if there were something, and I am, I'm just sort of spinning and talking while I'm thinking here, so maybe I'll end up in something really stupid, but I think international shipping is a big problem. For one thing, it causes a tremendous amount of of carbon into the atmosphere, just astronomical amounts of pollution. Yucca: Right. And so many other things. I mean, our, I think that decentralizing a lot of that would be really, really helpful. Mark: I agree. Yucca: you know, just the supply chain things that have happened over the last few years is just the tip of the iceberg with that. But if we could, return a lot of our means for survival to be in our own hands, in a more local setting, I think that that would be incredibly powerful because on so many different levels, one, just the practical, if something happens, then so many people are without a paddle, right? But also, it's really easy to control people when you control their ability to survive. you Other means to survive, right? Yeah. Mark: the exploitation of cheap labor facilitated by international shipping because producers can go shopping for the most destitute people they can find, pay them as little as they possibly can in order to produce consumer goods that then get shipped back to rich countries where people pay for them. And I mean, That's, that's not just a horror story, that is the standard operating procedure of manufacturing in the world. That's, that's, that's the way it is. Yucca: That's the origins of most of the objects around you right now. For most people, I don't know, some of you might be actually out you know, sitting in a tree with just your phone and some earbuds in. If so, that sounds awesome. But I'm guessing most people listening right now are probably in a constructed environment. In your car, in your house, you know, in a bus, something like that. Mark: Yeah, yeah. Yucca: So Mark: And there's nothing wrong with that, and I want to be very clear, I'm not shaming people Yucca: we're in the same boat, Mark: Yeah, I mean, we all have to live, you know, we're talking on computers here I've got headphones on that I am absolutely certain were made in China by someone who was not paid nearly enough for the service of having created this product. Myself, as, you know, similarly a wage slave in capitalism If that person was actually paid a reasonable wage, I might not have been able to afford these headphones, right? So the whole system reinforces itself, and no one is innocent, and no one other than the decision makers on this are really guilty. Yucca: Mm hmm. I'm Mark: You know, we, we all, we're all doing the best we can, given the system that we have, but that system needs to shift, unless we just decide we're gonna eat up the world and go extinct. Yucca: not so fond of that, Mark: I'm not either, I, that's just, you know, as, as golden futures go, that's really not one for me. Yucca: this is a topic that we did do several years back at this point. We did talk about misanthropy and I do see a a strong tendency of that in our culture today. Which is, I find, very saddening. But I, other than I don't agree with that from a value perspective it's very, it's very counterproductive. It really doesn't help us solve any of these problems, to be really down on, well, we should go extinct, it would be better for the, for everybody, or for the rest of the world, or, you know, all of that. It just, I don't think that, I don't buy that. I think it's not a very strong argument. It's kind of a, it's a cop out. Mark: Yeah, I was gonna say I agree with you, I, I don't have much truck with that either, and I think it's intellectually lazy. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: I think it's just, oh, there's a huge complicated problem, I don't want to think about it, maybe let's just go extinct. and, and it's a very uncompassionate, non empathetic way of looking at humanity and at, you know, The crises that we confront and I hope to do better than that and I think that we collectively can do better. Yucca: I think so. And I think it relates to our ability to choose what we are going to focus and pay attention to. And I think that's some of what we were talking about before about the nostalgia. When we're in that, we're focusing on just specific aspects of the past. Right? That nostalgia for the 60s in the hippie era. Well, there was a lot of things that really sucked about that, right? But when we're longing for it, we're not longing for the war and the turmoil and all of that. We're longing for the parts that were really positive about it. And so we, we have the ability to really shape the way That we behave in the world based on what we focus on. Not that we shouldn't pay attention to that, we certainly should pay attention to the negative things, but do we focus on solutions to those things? Or do we focus on the misery of how bad it sucks to be human? Yeah, enduring those things. Mark: Right. Right. Yeah, that's exactly right. And one of the things that I find increasingly frustrating is, is that tendency to simply say, well, we're screwed. And so let's stop trying. Yucca: hmm. Mark: Now, trying is going to involve some dislocation because capitalism gives us lots of goodies. It's totally unsustainable, but it gives us goodies that if we were to move into a sustainable modality, we probably wouldn't have nearly as many of. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: But the odds are good that we would actually be significantly happier because Instead of filling our desire for happiness and for satisfactions with the purchase of things, we would have stuff like culture and community and relationships and, and, and celebration like Pagan celebrations around the year, that kind of stuff. Spirituality art. All of those things that really are shunted to the side by the capitalistic frame, which is that all of those things, because they can't be monetized very well, aren't very important. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And so the challenge is moving out of that structure in a way that doesn't cause harm as we do it. Mark: Or the, the, the so called soft landing. You know, there are so many indicators that point towards some kind of collapse or crash coming not very long from now between climate change and and various economic indicators and so forth. You know, it is likely that there is going to be some real privation in our future, but Yucca: And there is. There is. Mark: he will, and there already Yucca: future. I think that there's a lot of places that we can point to in this moment and go, right here, here, here, here. Mark: Right, yeah, I mean, any Appalachian town that had the top of its mountains shaved off by a coal mining company, and then, which then marched off to, you know, do its next project in Brazil and left all those people with no work in a destroyed environment, I mean, that's a microcosm right there of exactly what capitalism does. And we need to have a more For want of a better word, holistic understanding about economic development. Economic development needs to be something that benefits people in the ways that most matter, and it is sustainable over time, rather than this endless boom bust thing that we see so often through capitalism. Yucca: Well, I think remembering the root of that word is helpful in this. The echo is home. That's what the word means, is home. So it remembering that everything that we're doing, we are doing, To our home, Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: so, Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: which we are part of, Mark: Right. Yucca: right? A home isn't just a house. A home is the people and the culture in that house. Right. It's all of the structures that the people depend on, that they're part of. Mark: And a part of the way that we can start pointing in this direction, I think, is through media. Because people need You know, we're so disconnected now. I mean, let me speak for myself and what I see around me in American society, right? People are very disconnected. They're often disconnected from their own families. Because of the nature of the job market under capitalism, families are atomized to the far corners of the world. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: As people seek jobs and go and work it becomes very hard for people to build communities because they're moving around looking for economic opportunities. Yucca: Right. Mark: And they're working themselves to death so they don't have a lot of time to build community and relationships and culture and all that kind of stuff. So I do feel that getting some of those warm, fuzzy, kind, empathetic values out into media is a way to kind of start the process. Mean, I can think of a couple of examples that just sort of reminded me of. Oh yeah, people can be kind to one another, people can, people can love one another, people can accept one another for who they are. And one of them is the Australian slash adults animated series, Bluey. Yucca: Absolutely. Mark: Yeah, I mean, as a mom, you, you know about Bluey, Yucca: Oh, I absolutely do. The parents in our household will be watching it, and the kids have left the room. It's a great, yeah, it really hits home. Very sweet. Mark: It's very kind and very thoughtful, and It's the kind of thing that, that moves the sorts of emotions that I think we need to be fostering more. You know, there's so much stuff out there that's all sort of, you know, post apocalyptic, war like, you know, blockbuster drama, and superhero vigilantes, and all that kind of stuff, and I just think people need to be reminded of how good it feels to be kind. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: the other one that I was thinking of is sensate. Did you ever see sensate? Yucca: No, I'm not familiar with this one. Mark: It's the word sense and then the, the letter, the, the numeral eight. Yucca: Okay. Mark: And you have to trust it because you won't understand what's going on until about three episodes into the series. It has Daryl Hannah in it and a bunch of people that I didn't know. But it's beautifully done. It's super queer, so it's very inclusive in that kind of way. And wonderful. It's done by the By Lana and the people who did The Matrix, Warszawski's, I, I, it's a, it's a long, seemingly Polish or Czech name that I, that I believe begins with a W. And both of those sisters are trans. When they made The Matrix they hadn't transitioned yet. So, interesting storytelling, interesting world perspective, just really worth checking out. Yucca: hmm. I've written that one down. I'm guessing that's not something you can watch with a five year old in the room. Mark: Probably not, no, there's, there's some sex in there, and, Yucca: wait for after bed. Mark: yeah and when they announced that it was cancelled, there was such an outpouring of, of rage that they made a movie to wrap it up, so that, there, the, I think it's two seasons and then the movie. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: It's either two or three seasons and then the movie, but anyway, yeah, worth, worth checking out because once again, it's like, oh, cool, interesting, unusual people being happy with each other. This is great. And, and it's a, it's a dramatic story. It's got tension. It's got conflict. It's got, you know, intrigue and all that good kind of stuff. It's not just people standing around being happy with one another, which unfortunately is not entertaining. Yucca: Yes. Although I wish that there maybe was some of that out there. Because sometimes that's what I, that's what I need to watch, Mark: yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. It's yeah, it's a funny thing. It's like, media can be like a companion in some ways, but what it reflects back to us can be really impactful on our worldview and on our feelings. And so getting, you know, getting a lot of the cruelty and, coldness out of what we consume. And building a market for that more kind, inclusive, warm human kind of way of being, I think is one of the things that we can do to start to shift things in the world. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: And then of course there's activism. I mean, you need to, you need to just advocate that people not be exploited. That the planet not be exploited. And, Yucca: And of course, our, our everyday, just the way that we move through the world, right, working on ourselves about the kindness that we bring to the world, or don't bring to the world with us, Mark: Yes, yes. And that's particularly hard right now, actually, with the cultural divide in the United States, at least, where the rhetoric is so vitriolic. And Yucca: both sides, Mark: both sides, it really is. Yucca: demonization that happens, it's hard to breathe sometimes with Mark: It is. Well, and, you know, a lot of that is inspired by leader figures. I mean, there's, there's a lot that can be laid at the feet of Donald Trump simply for how abusive he's willing to be to other people. And people see that and say, Oh, well, then I can do that too. Yucca: right? Mark: It's, it's just Yucca: And I don't think it's a conscious process, for the most part. I don't think people actually say those words in their mind, to themselves, but that that is the takeaway, again, across the board, right? Not pointing to one aisle or the other, that that's, you That's a, it's something that's grown, at least my awareness of it has grown in the last few years. I think that it's something that's not just my awareness, I think that's a trend that has really really spread. Mark: Yes  Yucca: and I think some of that is enabled by the systems that we have. Especially with format that social media has right now. And I think social media can, can take different forms, but the form that it has right now is very, is about creating the us versus them mentality, because that's what gets the clicks and that's what gets the advertising dollars. Mark: Yes. Yes, and to be honest, if it were not for the fact that the atheopagan community spaces are online social media spaces, mostly. I wouldn't be on them at all. I, I know that Facebook does bad things to me. I, I can tell that Facebook is doing bad things to me, and I can tell by the way the algorithm curates my feed that it's trying to rile me up, it's trying to get me mad. I get this endless stream of, like, right wing Christian stuff. Yucca: Well, because you look at it. Mark: Well, even if I don't interact with it, it's Yucca: but it sees how long you are, even if you don't click on it, it sees how long you stay over that page. So the, if you just keep scrolling past it, don't look at it at all, it won't give it to you as much. But it sees that you linger for that half a second on it, and then it'll give you more the next time, because it worked. Right? And that, that is a content that, it doesn't actually look at what the content is, it looks at whether you engage with the content or not. Mark: This is why I love groups, because there are no ads in groups. Yucca: You can just go right in. Yeah. Mark: in and you see the posts that people have made in the groups, and that's it. The, the curated feed is something that I try to avoid as much as possible. And, I mean, I used to use Twitter for rapid news, but now that's turned into a cesspool. I'm not, not gonna Yucca: Oh, I would say that it always has been. It's had some rough times recently, but it's It's definitely a model for all of that. Yeah. And of course, I mean, it's, each of the platforms have their, their issues. But, well, this has actually been a huge tangent. We we left the golden golden age topic half an hour ago, right? Mark: Well, what would that golden age look like? To me, the balancing act there, the place where I won't go is the so called dark green resistance. direction. There's a book called Dark Green Resistance and it's, it's very problematic in a number of ways, one of which is that it's extremely ableist. It basically declares that industrialization is, and, and the products of industrialization are things that we're going to have to give up in order to get into sustainability. And so basically everybody who's disabled and needs that support or needs, you know, prescriptions or whatever that is, they Yucca: So the, the folks who rely on insulin or other things like that, too bad. Mark: They can just, too bad. They're, they're, they're washed out. And so I find that very offensive and, and unproductive. I think, and unrealistic, to be honest, because the fact is that people, Yucca: We're not going to do that, Mark: no. People do, they, you know, these are family members, they're people that we love. We're not going to do that, and we're not going to let it be done to ourselves, either. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: So Me Yucca: I, I really dislike the framing of the nature versus humanity, Mark: too. Yucca: right? That's just so unproductive because we are, we're part of, we're part of all of it and we have to take care of us to be able to take care of the whole system. Because, Mark: And, and I have another tangent, which is that our, that that conceptualization of the separation between nature and humanity actually informs some of the early environmental laws that we have in this country, like the Wilderness Act that was approved in 1964. Which discusses in its preamble the idea of lands untrammeled by man, which, Yucca: except that we've been here for 30, 000 years. Thank you very much.  Mark: In a completely racist way erases the presence of native people here for that entire time. Yucca: who have been actively managing that there isn't any news. Maybe some areas in Antarctica. But other than that, there's, there's no land on Earth that we haven't actively been managing for thousands of years. Mark: That's right. Yucca: That's not, yeah. Mark: Yeah, that's right. And there is still a divide within the environmental community between those who. are apoplectic that the National Park Service might allow these little tiny anchors to be pinned into rock so people can climb, because it's, it's inserting human technology into nature. And people who are much more reasonable, who understand, climbers are some of the best environmentalists there are. They love the outdoors, they love the wild, they love the wildlife, they, they, they donate, they, they volunteer, they vote, they do all the things that we need to do for our environment. And you're gonna, you're gonna tell them to get lost because they because you're upset about a totally invisible thing way up high on a rock face? I just, it's, it's, it ain't right. Yucca: Right. And there's a lot of other examples, you know, we can choose different fields for that. But that's definitely one of the ones that's like, really? That's, that's, that's, that's, That's the, okay, Mark: yeah, that's, that's the hill you're gonna die on. Yucca: what you're going to fight with? Okay. Yeah, because it's, okay, full disclosure, I am a climber, so, but but that's not even like arguing about roads, which you could have the argument of if they're improper, if they're not put in right, then you get erosion and trickle down effects from, like, problems with that. But yeah, Mark: there's a lot to be said for roadless areas. When the roadless area policy was implemented under Bill Clinton, it did some very good things for some large, unsegmented Yucca: absolutely, Mark: of wildlife habitat. Yucca: yeah. So, I see a lot of problems that have been created by roads. As a restoration ecologist, when I go in, that's one of the first things that we see is, oh, I haven't even walked up that way yet, but I know that there's a road that way. Right, so it's, it's something that, I just brought that up as something that I could see why people would be arguing against a road, but why somebody's going to argue against the little piece of metal in the, the rock all the way up there, Mark: makes no sense whatsoever. Yucca: most of the time you don't even know is there unless the person is actively climbing, right? Yeah. Mark: Yeah, exactly so. And, I mean, there, as you say, there are other examples of this as well. I mean, the, the terrible wildfires that ran through the Giant Sequoia National Park. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: killed 20 percent of the giant Sequoia trees. And the reason that that happened was because fire suppression practices for a century had built up fuels such that when fire finally went through there, the temperatures were so high that these giant trees were killed. So the Yucca: catastrophic fires. Yeah. Mark: because there wasn't beneficial fire, which is a natural part of the landscape and has been used by Native people to manage land for thousands of years. But that's what happened. Big catastrophic fire, a lot of the trees died. National Park Service decided, okay, well in order to help offset this, We need to plant some giant sequoias. We, you know, we need to propagate and then plant some giant sequoias. The same gang that I'm talking about, organizations like Wilderness Watch, went ballistic. No. You have to leave it alone. Wilderness is, is just that. You, you must, you can't touch it. You can't do anything to it. It must just be left to do whatever it's going to do, which on rangelands means you're going to end up with a whole bunch of invasive non natives, Yucca: You starve, you starve it. That's how you turn a range into a desert, is by fencing it off, because our grazers are gone, Mark: mm hmm. Yucca: right? And if you fence that off, and we don't have any grazers, it can't, you have just disrupted resource cycling. Right? You can't get nutrients into the soil. You're gonna get, you're gonna kill all your grasses, and yeah, you just end up with invasives. And then, you end up with bare, you end up with dirt. Mark: With bare dirt, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, this is, and I'm sure we can come up with myriad examples of this, but these are a couple of examples that have come up in the course of my work. And it's very frustrating because everybody involved in these conflicts wants to be doing the right thing, but some of them have some very strange criteria for what that is. And, Yucca: Well, and Mark: you know, I go back to, let's go with the science, let's go with what's practical, let's go with, let's, and, and particularly, to my mind, when we are still, especially in the West, having ongoing conflicts over whether nature is to be rendered into marketable resources. or allowed to flourish as nature. Surely we need to do something so that the people that care about that will continue to care about it, right? There's, there's a very human component to all of this.  Yucca: That, those of us who are, embedded into these ecosystems as part of them and rely on them for our survival, that we are, that we're not left out of that, right? Because one of the problems that happens in my state a lot is that there's a real disconnect between the urban and rural, Communities, and the urban communities will have louder voices often, and will make choices for how, what they think is good for the land, forgetting that, like, yeah, but then we have no, like, then we're going to freeze to death this winter. If you, if you say that we can't cut any firewood, we're going to freeze. Like, you can't survive in this climate if you don't heat your homes, and great, you've got propane. You don't have to even think about it because you've got natural gas and propane and all that in your city, but, you know, we still need to cut down a couple of trees each year. Mark: Yeah. Yeah  Yucca: so it's a, it's, it gets very, very complex. Emotions get high with that stuff. Mark: for sure. Yeah, so as I said, this is a big, long tangent, and I knew that it was gonna be, but it's, it's important. It's an important topic, and one that, that conservationists, We struggle with, you know, we struggle with one another about it. We sue on opposite sides of, you know, of these issues. And I don't have any, you know, quick simple answer for that, but it goes to this idea about what is the golden future. If the idea of the golden future is that, Nature is a park with fences around it. That's, you know, with, you know, all the abundant wildlife and sparkling springs and all that kind of stuff. That's not a realistic future vision. not how those things work, Yucca: and then we all live in that Wall City Mark: right? Yucca: But yeah. I think that whatever the future ends up looking like, that critical examination and reflection is, is really, I think that that's, that's key. That we not only be able to look at ourselves, but be able to look at our society and look at what, and examine what is it that we want, and how do we work towards that, instead of just sort of, just hitting the ground running and just going with whatever's happening, right? Mark: and especially what produces quarterly profitable returns. Yucca: Right? Because that, I mean, that doesn't take very much thought to realize some of the problems with that. Yeah, Mark: And there are things that we could do, there are policy things that we could do, that would make a huge difference in this. If, if legally you could not sell a stock for two years after you bought it, the economy would utterly transform. Because suddenly, The health of the, of the operation itself, and then of course you layer on environmental responsibility, social responsibility, governance responsibility, the so called ESG that the right wing is freaking out about if, if you put it that way. Corporate behavior in a frame like that, and make sure that people who invest are actually investing long enough that it, that they actually care about the performance of the company, you will have enterprises that actually succeed instead of simply cranking out something and then, you know, people can dump the stock, Yucca: mm hmm. Mark: and they will behave in a much more responsible fashion. So, there's, there are a lot of things we could do, there are a lot of things we could do. And we're not doing them, yet. Yucca: The fact that they're there is something that I find very hopeful, Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: right, that there are things that, that's just one solution, right? And if there's one solution, how many others are there, right? So, Mark: Yeah, and far smarter people than me are, are, they're working on this stuff. They're, they're trying to figure out what kind of a, a system we could have. One of the challenges that I have in reading some of that stuff is that it's often very academic and, and Disconnected from the realities of the world because I'm a politics guy, right? I'm a, I'm a, I'm an implementation guy. I, I want to see how does your idea, how does that get traction and move forward in our society? Yucca: mm hmm. Mark: But those are answerable questions in many cases. I think that golden future can happen, and it won't be golden all the time. That's, Yucca: just like everyday life, Mark: yeah, Yucca: right? Yeah, Mark: but we can certainly build a world that is much kinder. Much more inclusive, much more sustainable, and where people are a lot happier than they are under capitalism, because capitalism makes misery. Yucca: For most people. Mark: Except for a very tiny elite. Yucca: Even then, those folks don't look very happy. Mark: They don't. Yucca: They look terrified, and you can see them going crazy. So, it doesn't, it really doesn't, what we've got going on now, and I don't know if maybe there are some elements of capitalism that are things that, there's some positive elements that we could move forward with and other things we don't want to, but what we've got going on isn't working for most people. Mark: That's right. Yucca: So, I think we need to look, to really look at what do we want to move towards instead, and how to build that. And I don't think that we're, personally, I don't like the tearing everything down, because I think a lot of people get hurt in that process. I think it's something that we need to work towards in a, to transform. not to try and destroy and rise out of the ashes because that rarely ever works. There's quite a few countries to take a look at where that, in recent history, where that's been disastrous. That's not how it, you know, people Mark: Usually what it gets you is some kind of strong armed dictator who, It promises people that they'll be safe. Yucca: So, how do we make these changes in a way that supports and nurtures as many people along the way as possible? Mark: That is the problem before us. It is. Yucca: And it's worthwhile. It's I'm grateful that that's something that we get to think about. Mm Mark: you know, I really am too. And we're, we're at a moment in human history where I don't believe it's too late, but we're definitely talking about the big picture now. we're going to make decisions that are going to impact the big picture in a significant way. And it's kind of meaningful to be alive at this time and to have a role in advocating for the kinds of values and, and ethics and behavior that we want to see. Yucca: Yeah, and getting to, to choose that, right? Mm hmm. I Mark: I mean, there are a lot of people that don't have a lot of choice about the circumstances of their lives and they aren't good circumstances, but they don't have a lot of choice about that. And they just have to keep repeating the same thing over and over and over in order to barely eke out an existence. It's a privilege to be able to work at a different level than that where you can hopefully have some traction on the future. So you were right. We had a lot of tangents. Yucca: was gonna say, I loved it. This is great. Lots to think about. So, thanks for a great discussion, Mark, Mark: Yeah, thank you. Really enjoyed it. Let us know what you think, folks. The Wonder Podcast, queues at gmail. com. That's The Wonder Podcast, all one word, and then the letter Q and the letter S. Yucca: and we'll see you next week.   

In this episode we interview John Michael Greer about his new book "The Secret of the Five Rites", where he delves into the hidden teachings of the popular form of exercise. We delve into the book it comes from, "The Eye of Revelation", the dangers of Kundalini awakening, the subtle energy body, how esoteric knowledge diffuses, changes and transforms over time and through cultures, the roots of the Tree of Life, the Golden Age of American occultism, and the strains of esotericism that fed it. Some of the figures we talk about include: Manly P. Hall, George Winslow Plummer, Aleister Crowley, Gerald Gardner, The Fox Sisters, Max Heindel, Paul Foster Case, Yogananda, John Dee, William Lilly, and many more. #esoteric #esotericknowledge #magick #podcast #occult #occultism #ocultpodcast #rosicrucian #spiritualism #americanhistory #kundalini #kundaliniyoga #kundaliniawakening #energybody #subtleenergy --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/plantcunning/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/plantcunning/support

We'll be back this spring with a new season of Magic in the United States, but in the meantime, enjoy this guest episode from Seeking Witchcraft. In this episode, host Ashley interviews Gardnerian High Priestess and initiate of the Ordo Templi Orientis (O.T.O.), Angela Z, about the life and times of Aleister Crowley. Angela tells us how Crowley became one of the best-known occultists of the 20th century, how he became involved with the O.T.O., founded Thelema, and got chummy with Wicca's founder, Gerald Gardner. It's a fascinating biography of a big occult personality, presented by two charming witches — enjoy!

Patricia Crowther is hailed as one of the mothers of modern Witchcraft. Initiated by Gerald Gardner and taking the Craft Name of “Thelema,” she went on to be a key promoter of Wicca and defender of the practice of Witchcraft. We'll learn more about this icon and prolific author, as Rosemary Stehlik and I resume our study of Women of the Occult.

In this captivating episode of "Back on the Broomstick," hosts Laylla and Chelle delve deep into the enigmatic Rule of Three, sometimes called the Threefold Law or the Law of Returns. Have you ever been curious about the true essence of this witchy principle, its origins, and its role in contemporary witchcraft? The witches have it covered.They unravel the threads of the Rule of Three, a fundamental concept in the craft that suggests whatever energy a witch puts out into the world, be it good or bad, returns to them threefold. But where did this idea start? Is it an age-old wisdom or a modern invention? From its first mention in Gerald Gardner's writings to its widespread acceptance (and sometimes skepticism) in contemporary witchcraft, we trace the journey of this intriguing rule.And it's not just about history and concepts! Laylla reflects on the unexpected results of her hot foot spells, questioning if the Rule of Three is weaving its enigmatic influence. Meanwhile, Chelle shares her own spellbinding tales, including that time she hexed her exes - did the universe serve her a triple slice of cosmic justice?Together, we debate how applicable the Rule of Three is to the life of a modern witch. Is it a literal law, a useful guideline, or perhaps a bit of both? Does the universal "sky daddy" really keep score, or are we witches solely responsible for our magical actions and their repercussions?This episode offers a lively, insightful, and sometimes humorous look at one of witchcraft's most talked-about principles. Email: backonthebroomstick@gmail.comFacebookInstagramBack on the Broomstick WebsiteInterested in contributing to The Solarium? Whether it's a letter, some quirky trinkets, or if you're a small business eager to showcase your products, we'd love to hear from you! We feature unboxings and reviews in our Solarium episodes, giving your items a spotlight in our magical space.Send to:Back on the BroomstickLaylla & Chelle1029 Lyell Ave Box 420Rochester NY 14606

Greeting's heathens and witches,Welcome to the Horn and Cauldron podcast… Cursing and hexing is a controversial subject within the pagan community. The whole idea around curses being evil or giving you bad luck is not as deeply rooted in magical practice as you might think, especially in ancient times. In this episode, we explore the concept of the Three-fold Law, and the phrase "An it harm none, do what ye will" and how they came to be, and the division of ‘High' or ‘White' magic and ‘Low' or ‘Black' magic. We go over several ancient curses, from a variety of sources—some of which dating back thousands of years! As usual, we spend a bit of time talking about our own experiences and preferences with curses and hexes. Recommended Episodes:Book of Shadows and Grimoires, Episode 30: https://youtu.be/eI-SOxxCZ6A?si=ziHwH3tHKaMwjY4rPub Chat: Magical Pain Management, Charles Cordell, Magic in Media: https://youtu.be/BDscjZxzXMY?si=bqrBP2QLA4cxzzN2Pub Chat: Magical Home Protection, Raymond Howard, Magic in Media: https://youtu.be/2Ea34XzUUtk?si=orBiyvObsW5KCRAoPub Chat: Astral Projection, Gerald Gardner, Magic in Media: https://youtu.be/dSXrgyssIR8?si=ZVKJkiB06n9V_ch9Pub Chat: Craft Names, Doreen Valiente, Discovery of Witches Magic Review: https://youtu.be/9dczvgWLM1s?si=eVgc5cJbskNu6veHToxic Internet Witchcraft, Episode 22: https://youtu.be/BBaJ0rGufEQ?si=DCNWdIokJkFPteVpHandfasting and Love Magic, Episode 32: https://youtu.be/1cjlaJCvDUY?si=a6Sb5v_XEthpiKfIIntro to Modern Odinism, Epsiode 25: https://youtu.be/D2hFPkF0fw8?si=RAnGcPyowZ2nUyXy Sources:· https://ia600208.us.archive.org/22/items/TheGreekMagicalPapyriInTranslation/The_Greek_Magical_Papyri_in_Translation.pdf page 158· https://www.icelandicmagic.com/products/sorcerers-screed?variant=32514479884 page 141· https://grapevine.is/mag/2021/10/14/the-mysterious-book-of-sorcerers-screed/· https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse· https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinx· https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_the_pharaohs· https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope_Diamond· https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_magic· https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execration_texts

Dr Christina Oakley-Harrington is Treadwell's founder and presiding spirit. She was voraciously interested in spirituality and magic since childhood, and grew up in West Africa, Burma, and Chile, only moving to the West at the age of fifteen. In her early twenties, she was heartened to discover Europe's own native religious traditions and has been a pagan ever since. A former academic, she left university life in 2001 to establish Treadwell's. These days she serves as a consultant for programs and projects but is usually at the shop. She is the author of two books and numerous articles and was co-founder and literary editor of Abraxas: International Journal for Esoteric Studies.Today we discuss her new book from Black Letter Press - Dreams of Witches. Free, pagan, transgressive: worshippers of Pan, devotees of Diana. The men and women who meet under a full moon in the wild woods danced, sing, made music, and made love; in the home they make potions and mutter spells, be it to curse or cure. The witch image infused the European imagination down the centuries, appearing in court records, prose, and poetry. The impulse the literature described finally became a practiced mystery religion in the twentieth century, in the form of Wicca as it coalesced in the New Forest in the 1930s and 30s. The poems and passages in this book illustrate the supportive imagination of the New Forest Coven and its most famous initiate, Gerald Gardner. They date from the late medieval period through the Edwardian age, and all were instrumental, influential - inspiring early pagans, and hopefully, too, readers today. In the Plus show we get into cunning folk. The covens importance around doing no harm and acting with integrity. The body as the source of magical energy and more broadly the adoption of magic and part of ones agency. Christina then poses the question  Enjoy Show notes: Treadwells https://www.treadwells-london.com/Dreams of Witches https://www.blackletter-press.com/product-page/christina-oakley-harrington-dreams-of-witches Kibbo kif - https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2015/nov/02/kindred-of-the-kibbo-kift-1920s-youth-movement Margaret Murray https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Murray Gerald Gardener https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Gardner Keep in touch?  https://linktr.ee/darraghmason Music by Obliqka https://soundcloud.com/obliqka --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/spirit-box/message

Wicca har nämnts i den här podden många gånger, och det är inte så konstigt eftersom wicca är på många sätt utgör ursprunget till nästan all modern häxkonst. Men wicca är också en i allra högsta grad levande religion i sin egen rätt. Därför bjöd vi in hela tre gäster för att samtala om vad wicca är för dem, och få diskutera våra frågor, funderingar och ibland problematiska erfarenheter. Det blev ett extralångt dubbelavsnitt! Först ut är Anna Hedeås Lundbekk och Ketil Lundbekk - gardnerianska wiccaner sedan 20 år som bor och verkar i Värmland, där de samlar wiccaner och andra hedningar för utforskande och covenarbete. Därefter pratar vi med Peter Andersson, som både är gardnerian och en del av svensk initiatorisk wicca, samt leder ett coven i Uppsala. LÄSTIPS FRÅN PETERThorn Mooney, Traditional Wicca: A Seeker's Guide, 2018.Yvonne Aburrow, All Acts of Love and Pleasure: inclusive Wicca, 2014.Deborah Lipp, Bending the Binary: Polarity Magic in a Nonbinary World, 2023.www.wicca.sehttps://british-wicca.com/Namn som nämns (men inte nödvändigtvis rekommenderas):Gerald Gardner - grundare av wiccaDoreen Valiente - inflytelserik författare inom wicca och häxkonstLaila Wiberg - grundare av Svensk Initiatorisk WiccaZsuzsanna Budapest - grundare av separatistisk dianisk wiccaScott Cunningham - inflytelserik författare inomsolitär wicca Charles Leland - författare av ”Aradia - the Gospel of the Witches”Vivianne Crowley - inflytelserik författare inom wiccaRaymod Buckland - inflytelserik författare inom wicca_____________Vill du stötta oss? Bli Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/formodrarsmaktSnacka med likasinnade: Eftersnacksgruppen på FacebookGillar du musiken i podden? Du hittar Eldins musik härMer info om podden: www.formodrarsmakt.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

#grimoire #bookofshadows #witchcraft Academic overview of the history of grimoires, Golden Dawn, Thelema, Saint Cyprian, Waite, Gerald Gardner. PRIMARY SOURCES The Grand Grimoire https://amzn.to/3GvUbWV The Grimoire of Pope Honorius https://amzn.to/3TWPQz8 The Book of Black Magic and of Pacts https://amzn.to/3Enxr90 The History of Witchcraft and Demonology https://amzn.to/3tIfgWA The Complete Book Of Natural Magick https://amzn.to/3gghYj7 The Corpus Hermeticum https://amzn.to/3XftY4V Three Books of Occult Philosophy https://amzn.to/3TQbghl Fourth Book of Occult Philosophy https://amzn.to/3Auz3N6 the Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses https://amzn.to/3Xl20oz The Book of St. Cyprian https://amzn.to/3ggii1j The Magus by Francis Barrett https://amzn.to/3GBshJn The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage https://amzn.to/3tLp02w The Gardnerian Book of Shadows https://amzn.to/3GsJ2q1 REFERENCE Davies, O. 2016. Grimoires In: C. Partridge, ed. The Occult World. London: Routledge, pp.603–610. Get the book here https://amzn.to/3tLoilS CONNECT & SUPPORT

#wicca #crowley #thelema Does Wicca come from Thelema? What was the relationship between Aleister Crowley and Gerald Gardner and how did that influence the Wiccan tradition? CONNECT & SUPPORT

              Gerald Gardner, the "father of Wicca", first introduced the Book of Shadows to people that he had initiated into the craft through his Bricket Wood coven in the 1950s. He claimed that it was a personal cookbook of spells that have worked for the owner; they could copy from his own book and add material as they saw fit. He said that the practice of Witches keeping such a book was ancient, and was practiced by the Witch-cult throughout history.Support the show

Steven Intermill is the Director at Buckland Museum of Witchcraft & Magick.Raymond Buckland founded the museum  in 1966. After visiting the late Gerald Gardner and his collection on the Isle of Man, Raymond was inspired to start a collection of his own. While working for British Airways, he was able to acquire many of the artifacts in this collection from all around the world. He initially displayed his museum on a few shelves in the basement of his Long Island, N.Y. home. However, over time, Raymond's witchcraft collection rapidly grew to well over 500 artifacts, ranging from Ancient Egyptian ushabtis to documented artifacts from the Salem Witch trials. This was the first museum of its kind in the United States with an anthropological approach to the world of folklore and the supernatural. Come with Tim Shaw and Marla  for an armchair visit.

A world renowned Creepy Girl intercedes in the lives of three young men as they all have to defend themselves against elderly blood-seeking hot topic witches. On Episode 566 of Trick or Treat Radio we are joined for our June Patreon Takeover by Creepy Girl! She picked two of her favorite horror films from 2022 for us to discuss. We start out with Two Witches from director Pierre Tsigaridis and then discuss Old People from director Andy Fetscher! We also talk about the old Fango Message Boards, steamy romance films from the 80s, and the fear of getting old and being abandoned. So grab a novelty Ouija Board from your local Department Store, take a drink from the nearest water fountain, and strap on for the world's most dangerous podcast!Stuff we talk about: The Monster Cereal Crew, Carmella Creeper, Monster Mash Remix, Creepy Girl Patreon Takeover, Police Academy, Steve Guttenberg, Fangoria Message Boards, Evil Dead, Wrong Turn, “bubblah”, Trick or Treat Radio Meetup, AEW Double or Nothing, WWE Wrestlemania, putting wrestling moves on your family, Shining Vale, Courtney Cox, Sherilyn Fenn, Two Moon Junction, Richard Tyson, Kingpin, Herve Villechaize, Sleepwalkers, Milla Jovovich, Kuffs, The Wild Life, Boxing Helena, Bill Paxton, Art Garfunkel, Mia Sara, Dina Meyer, Birds of Prey, Fright Night, Yellowjackets, Two Witches, Hot Topic witches, Pierre Tsigaridis, Kristina Klebe, Rebekah Kennedy, I Trapped the Devil, Euro-Horror and Italian Horror influence, Peter Strickland, In Fabric, Single White Female, Kentucky Witches, the ongoing negative stereotype of witches, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Gerald Gardner, Arrow, movies that end with To Be Continued…, Old People, Andy Fetscher, DNR, The Crazies, George A. Romero, old folks home, neglecting our elders, William Shatner, The Amusement Park, the lost Romero film, Way of the Gun, Benicio del Toro, Ryan Phillipe, Rob Zombie, Def Comedy Jam, French Extremity, Randall Flagg, The Stand, Fried Bragg, Creep Show Radio, Rabid Grannies, Masha Masha Masha, Die With Your Boots On, Reese Feces, Skinny Girl Margaritas, and Puritan Turd Huffers.Support us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/trickortreatradioJoin our Discord Community: discord.trickortreatradio.comSend Email/Voicemail: mailto:podcast@trickortreatradio.comVisit our website: http://trickortreatradio.comStart your own podcast: https://www.buzzsprout.com/?referrer_id=386Use our Amazon link: http://amzn.to/2CTdZzKFB Group: http://www.facebook.com/groups/trickortreatradioTwitter: http://twitter.com/TrickTreatRadioFacebook: http://facebook.com/TrickOrTreatRadioYouTube: http://youtube.com/TrickOrTreatRadioInstagram: http://instagram.com/TrickorTreatRadioSupport the show

Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. The Library: https://theapsocietyorg.wordpress.com/library/ S4E7 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host, Yucca. Mark: and I mark. Yucca: And today we have an interview with a member of the atheopagan Society Council, Robin. Robin: Hello. Thanks for. Yucca: So Robin, we were just saying right before hitting record, we realized you are the first interview that we ever had on the podcast. So way back in the early days, you came and joined us, and so we've got you back again. So welcome. So even before the atheopagan Society formed, I think. Robin: I think so. I, I think it may have been pre pandemic or early pandemic, so, but wild, amazing times, Yucca: Yeah, So welcome back. We're really excited to have. Robin: Thank you. Mark: Yeah. So, well, let's just dive right in. Why don't you tell us something about yourself and your journey to getting to atheopagan and within it. Just kind of what, what's your story been there, Robin? Robin: Yeah. So I grew up, my family is kind of like nominally Catholic. But I realized pretty early on that that was just like not gonna be for me and decided. I was an atheist. But so like nature and going out into nature always played a really big role in my life. We were lucky enough to have this like little patch of woods at the back of our yard that it was technically our neighbors, but they didn't care that we played back there. And so we just spent hours and hours playing in the woods. and my grandfather was really big into birding and he took us out looking for looking for birds. And then later on we got involved in like Boy Scouts, girl Scouts, me and my brother. And our parents decided to get involved too and volunteer with them. So we just went camping a lot and spent a lot of time outside. And so I really just always had that connection to nature and. One day in high school I walked into homeroom and my best friend was reading this book about Wicca. It was Anne Mara's Green Witchcraft, and I was intrigued. And I think some of that was just like, you know, it's like the forbidden thing, , like I'm willing to admit that it was, part of, it was just that like, Ooh, witchcraft. Mark: Great. When you're a teenager, Robin: Exactly. Yeah. And. The other things that really appealed to me was that it was based in nature in the seasons and cycles of the seasons, and it was also very feminist, which coming from a Catholic background was just so refreshing. And so, I spent a couple years off and on kind of trying to be the stereotypical pagan. ultimately, that didn't really work for me either. And so I kind of went back to being nothing or being atheist again. But occasionally I would feel this like desire to, you know, light a candle meaningful in, at a meaningful moment or I, I ended up just kind of feeling like, like I wasn't pagan, I wasn't fitting in. But I also felt like a really bad atheist, so my, my cognitive dissonance was pretty high. So, and it finally just came to a head for me and I realized like I really wanted this sense of spirituality but one that would still balance with science. So I. For some reason decided the best way to figure this out was to start a blog and start blogging about it. And then I took a quiz on Beliefnet and they were like, Hey, you're a, you're a secular humanist. And I said, cool. What is that? I had no idea what it was. What like secular, like I knew humanism from studying history, but I didn't know what a secular human witness was and didn't take very long. I started googling like humanist, pagan, and kind of stumbled onto this community, and it was, it was such a great moment. Just like the sense of joy and relief, finding that like I wasn't the only person thinking like this. Mark: Hmm. Robin: So it was, it was incredible finding that. And another thing that has been really amazing being part of this community is you get to see people kind of having that experience again and again being like, oh my gosh, I'm not the only one. So, yeah, that's, that's the slightly longer version. Mark: Well that's wonderful. Yeah. We, we do have an awful lot of people who they, they find themselves in our community and they're like, oh, wow. I found my people. This is, this is cool. I thought I was gonna be all alone in this. Robin: Yeah, and I think that was kind of why I was like, I guess I'll start a blog. Maybe other people will be interested, but realized pretty quickly like I didn't need to, so, Mark: You know, the, the same thing happened to me. I. I went through this whole process and wrote a 40 page essay and did all this research and came to all these conclusions and threw it up on the internet, and, and, and I had been looking for stuff and my research skills were just apparently terrible. Because there were people already doing this, you know, the, the Humanistic Paganism blog and people like Anya Orga and Daniel Strain and John Cleveland, host and John Halsted. They were all, you know, well along on the same thinking. And I just blew it. Robin: Yeah, well we don't make it easy cuz it's, it's under all these different terms. Like you might find us. By going through like humanistic paganism or atheist and paganism or witchcraft. Like there's so many different terms. So, Mark: Yeah, it's. Robin: yeah.  So I think another thing that had a lot of influence on me was being able, growing up, even though we weren't religious, we were still part of these really tight-knit communities, and I. Really enjoyed that and kind of ended up pursu, like I found myself looking for communities like that to join. And I think my parents set a really good example for me because they were always kind of involved with volunteering and different community projects. A lot of times through like scouts. I did a stint in AmeriCorps with the Student Conservation Association, where we, we basically lived in a commune doing for like a year, doing all these different community service projects. And then my early career was in environmental education and that gave me a lot of opportunities to be in those kind of communities and roles. And then later I shifted to libraries, which is also a community service kind of role. So, yeah. Yucca: And that's something that you have brought with you into the atheopagan community. Robin: I, I hope so. Yeah. I very much want this to be not just. I want it to be a community not just like a group of people, but for people to really feel like they belong and they are a part of it. And that, you know, it's not just like these people on high deciding, deciding like, this is how we live and this is what our practices are. It's, you know, I can contribute something to this. I can decide what is important to me and make that part of my practice. So I hope, I really hope to see that. Mark: Well, you've been great. Identifying resource, and I'm sure that that's this library background. Identifying resources, bringing things forward. You know, Hey, have you thought about this? Hey, look at what these people over here are doing. Hey, look at these children's books that, you know, espouse our values. And you know, all of us come from different backgrounds and people are in different situations. You know, Yucca has kids, for example. I don't have. So, you know, Yucca would be looking for resources for her kids books, right? And, you know, videos and whatever it is. And I think that that's what builds a community is when you have stuff that works for a lot of different kinds of people and they can all come together around. Robin: Yeah, and I think especially talking about books like it, it's amazing. Like I started looking for, at one point I said like, Hey, let me see what kind of children's books I can find that. Reflect the values that somebody in this community might be interested in. And what amazed me was how many I found and how many there are out there. And I think part of it is that we think about the things that little children are kind of learning and a lot of these books are focused on things like nature and learning about seasons, but they're also really focused on wonder. And that's something that Athe, paganism kind of has in common is that we kind of take this child like wonder at the world and a lot of children's books do the same thing. And so like sometimes I feel like reading a really good children's book is kind of like doing a ritual. Like when I think of. I like, I love Bird Baylor her books. And so like, to me, like reading the community or the table where rich people sit is, it's like doing a ritual. So I think there's so many opportunities in children's books that I feel like they're this like un unsung resource for us. Mark: Yeah, and there's all kinds of other things that are very contemporary that are coming out in children's books now. There's stuff around consent and body autonomy. There's stuff around gender. . There's, I mean, obviously, you know, probably the parents that most need to be providing those books to their kids are the ones who aren't, but at least they're out there. At least those, those stories are being told. Robin: Yeah, and the idea too is for them to be, you know, as a librarian. Mark: Mm-hmm. Robin: Is for them to be available. Like if somebody wants them, they are there for them. But nobody, nobody forces you to take a book home from the library. It's not like an assigned reading. So they're there for people who want it. Sometimes it's interesting because publishing ta a book takes so long as I'm sure you have learned writing a book right now. Yeah. It takes so long. And so books, even children's book publishing, it tends to be like a year or two behind the trends. So we'll be talking about You know, about, maybe about five years ago there was this big trend of like, we need to see more people of color in children's books. There's hardly any. And now it's kind of catching up and, and there's a lot all at once. So, hopefully we'll see those trends continue. So Mark: Yeah. I, I have a friend who published a children's book called I Did Something Good For the Earth Today. Robin: Oh, cute. I'll check it out. Mark: yeah, it's, it's a sweet little book. It's the illustrations that take forever. I mean, To be honest, I think it's a lot easier to pound out a lot of words than it is to get, you know, all that artwork done page after page, after page for a children's book. So Robin: Yeah, and when you think about editing Mark: time. Robin: picture versus editing, a line of text takes a lot longer too. Mark: Right, exactly. Robin: Yeah. So now that I've gotten those completely off topic Yeah. But I, I, I will talk about children's books until I'm, until I'm blue in the face. Cause I love it. So, yeah. Oh, so another thing, then I just move on to history. Mark: Sure. Yucca: Yeah, absolutely. Robin: So studying history in college was, had a really big impact on me too early on. And I think, like, I've always loved history and I think that was again, like another part of it that drew me into paganism. But the community I grew up in wasn't super diverse. So when I went, I ended up going to school at the University of Toledo and it was so much more diverse than the community that I grew up in. And that was an amazing opportunity. But, and then at the same time, I was learning a lot more and focusing on the history and learning learning about the injustices that our society is built on. Mark: Mm-hmm. Robin: That really is what put me on this path to appreciating diversity and social justice and like, it's, it's just impossible to ignore when you study history long enough and deep enough. So that had a big impact on me. And another thing that I learned from all of this, so I. Became really fascinated by a field called public history. And this is studying the way that history kind of plays out or gets fixed in popular culture. So we spent a lot of time studying. We started studied museums and sculptures and like, what does history look like in cinema and what does that have to say about like, what stories do we fixate to tell on about. Mark: Mm-hmm. Robin: And it, it just gave me this understanding that like history is not just this like fixed narrative, like this happened in the past and then this happened. It's the study of history is as much about the stories that we tell about what happened. And it's fascinating because the past becomes this, like, it's almost like this mythical thing and we will project our own. Fascinations and insecurities onto this to tell us like what this all meant and it's, I see this a lot in the Pagan community or in Paganism where, you know, you take something like the Druids, like we don't honestly historically know that much about the Druids. We don't have a lot of, we don't have any written records from dues themselves. We just have accounts from outside. But because it's rich in, in symbolism, we just kind of project whatever we wanna see onto that based on the very little bit of evidence that we have. And so that always just kind of fascinated me and it, it really forced me to take a look at Paganism as a whole and really kind of made me skeptical about the community for a while cuz I would see so many people like spouting things about the burning time without fact checking it. And it, it made me more critical, which I was always kind of like leaning towards that. But yeah. Mark: Yeah. I, I really share that. I mean, you know, I, I spent so many years in the Pagan community. I spent like, You know, 27 years or something in the Pagan community kind of playing along and trying not to roll my eyes at certain stuff, like, you know, the, the, the deity stuff, but particularly the take on history, you know, with the, you know, the. The sweet goddess worshiping rural agrarian who, you know, lived in perfect paradisical harmony with one another in nature. And then were trampled by the terrible bronze wielding, you know, horse riding kurgans. I mean, it was just, it was so obviously a fable and I mean, there are, there are bits of truth in it. Like any good myth, you know, it's, Pieces of stuff that's accurate, but and where it's pointing is very positive. You know, the empowerment of women, yay. Good. But the story itself when it becomes an article of faith just really, really drove me crazy. Robin: Yeah, and I'm slowly working my way through Ronald Hutton's triumph of the Moon and. Fascinating cuz he's a historian and he talks about sort of the roots of neo paganism. And one thing that fascinated me was that he talked about, you know, for a long time whenever people talked about classicism, it was always Jupiter or Zeus in the Greek pantheon that people focused on. But it wasn't until like the romantics popped up and all of a sudden the focus was on pan. And that idea of like this divine feminism kind of like lost goddess kind of took hold too. And it's, it's fascinating the way those narratives about the past can constantly change based on. What's going on in the modern world? In this case it was, you know, like the growth of industrialization kind of drove this shift to, well, we're not so much interested in, in, in Jupiter and Jov, we're more interested in like the wildness of Pan. Mark: Right. Yeah. Yeah, I love that book. And there are pagans who hate it a lot. There are people that are very, very angry with Hutton for, for one thing, for really documenting that there was no unbroken lineage of witchcraft from down through the misty Yucca: That grandmother gave to grandmother and yeah. Mark: Which doesn't mean that there aren't family folklore traditions, I mean there clearly are. But the idea that they go back to the paleolithic or something is just a little bit stretched. Robin: Yeah. And I think if, if your, your belief system is so built on, you know, poking a few holes in a myth is suddenly gonna make the whole thing unravel. You need to re rethink it. Like the, it's good to rethink it. So, Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, indeed. Well, why don't we change the subject a little bit. You serve on the atheopagan Society Council in fact, you were one of the founding members of the atheopagan Society Council. What do you see as your role there and what are you trying to accomplish For the community? Robin: Yeah. So I hope I at least have been able to, I feel like I have drawn. A lot on my experience in communities and kind of building communities. I also really hope that I have brought a commit commitment to equity and inclusion. You know, I'm not by any measure a perfect ally. I come with a lot of privilege and it's. The work of a lifetime to really unravel and understand that privilege. But I hope that I'm at least making some progress there. And I've the other thing is like I do, I've done a lot of projects for the commu the community. I'm great at coming up with ideas. I'm less great at keeping those projects going all of the time. But I hope that the projects that I've, I've done and, and the things that I've done are giving people chances not to just like, like I don't want them to just kind of be given like, here's, you know, here's our beliefs, here's what you need to do. I, I hope that I'm giving people opportunities to really consider what their beliefs are and what. they want their practice to look like and then share with others what that looks like. So like, I'm trying to think of all the projects I've done. I did, I think the first thing I ever did was I did a weekly tarot share where it would just be like a random card and everybody say like, this is what I see. This is how I interpret it. That one has actually managed, that's like the one project that's managed to keep going. It's changed cans a couple times, but still going. So, I don't think the person, I don't know if the person who's running it wants to be named, so I won't, I won't name them, but yeah. Yeah. I did for a little while, I was doing a non theist pagan photo share, which is always a mouthful. We need to rebrand that, but, The idea was I wanted, It was focused a lot on Instagram, so I wanted other people who weren't necessarily identifying as atheopagan to maybe feel like they could participate, which is why it has such a weird name. But yeah, the idea was we, I, I love the like witchy photo challenges on Instagram where they give you like a day. Usually they go for a month and every day you have a different theme. And so that was the idea. We had a different theme based around non theist, paganism and if anybody wants to take that up, it it was a lot of fun and it wasn't that hard to run. So if you want to take that up and do that again, I'd be so excited. Mark: I would be so excited if there were somebody in our community that. Wanted to be a point person for Instagram. I mean, we, we do have an account technically, but it hasn't been posted to in forever. It would, that would just be really cool. Robin: Yeah. Yeah, there's, I mean, there's so much, there's a lot of fun things you can do with Instagram. So, I also Ryan or ran with Tom, the not, or we had an L G B T Q discussion group, which kind of took a hiatus and then we had an affinity group form, so we kind of put it into their, into their hands. We have a, or had a book club. It's kind of on HI hiatus right now or try to figure out how to bring that back. And then I run the Ohio atheopagan group. So Mark: Mm-hmm. Robin: yeah, there's. For me, I kind of have to like, like the thing is I'm great at coming up with ideas. I kind of have to pump the brakes a little bit because we are in some ways growing so fast that I don't wanna like throw too much out there without knowing that it can be sustained. So,  Mark: that's a conversation we're really having a lot right now. You know, about getting some infrastructure up underneath all this stuff that's already grown. You know, rather than putting a huge focus on growth over the course of the next couple of years, you know, just sort of building all the scaffolding Yucca: and making sure we don't get burnout because this is all volunteer. So, you know, making sure our attention isn't into too many places or too much all at once. Mark: I was surprised that you didn't mention the library for the Ethiopian Society website. That was a big project you Robin: It was that is another one that's kind of on hiatus right now. Yeah. I'd love for me, and I work in a library, so keep in mind I'm biased here, but for me, libraries have always been this kind of like magical, almost sacred place, like these like halls of knowledge. I. Contractually obligated to now pour one out for the Library of Alexandria as I Yucca: Right. Robin: So, you know, to me, I would love to see I mean like a physical library is probably not gonna be an atheopagan. Pagan physical library's not gonna be in the cards for. A very long time, if ever, but that doesn't mean that we can't have resources in place to go if we want to learn something new. And this the thing. Another remarkable thing about this community is that there's so many people who are so curious and creative that I'd love to have a place where they can just say like, I wanna learn about this. I wanna learn about meditation, or I wanna learn about you know, ancient history, or I wanna learn about evolution. And sort of that like, tale of life coming into being. and then having a place where they can do that in different ways and as many formats as they want. So, yeah, the idea is to kind of, the idea at least initially was to build a library with resources that people submit and say like, Hey, this is something that I found interesting and helpful on my journey. And then we'll kind of put it together in one place so people can find it. It's been a little bit humbling cuz I was like, I'm a librarian. I could figure out how to make a website that does that. And it turns out that's really much harder than than I, I thought initially going into it was gonna be so I am humbled But yeah, it's something I'd still love to see happen. And I'm kind of waiting to again see like what, like this is something I think that the community needs because it's really special to me. I love and I'm kind of waiting, engaging as we do some strategic planning to figure out like, okay, does this actually fulfill a need that we have in this moment or is that ener energy best spent on something else? So, yeah, bit of a hiatus, but hopefully someday it is my dream. Mark: is some very cool stuff there though. So if you haven't gone to v ap society.org and clicked on library there's a long list. There's downloadable resources, there's There's like an ex Excel sheet that will point you in a lot of different directions. There's a link to our Good Reads shelf, that's this huge collection of books that have been submitted by the community. There's community resources, there's ritual resources. So, there's a lot of stuff there, even though, I mean, it doesn't have the most wizbang interface in the world but it's still pretty. Robin: you did a great job plugging that. Thank you. Yucca: Well, speaking of the future what is your vision for atheopagan his future? Robin: You know, right now I, I would love to see our in-person communities growing. I think especially after the pandemic, like so many people. , we ended up losing communities that we had just because we couldn't physically be there for a while. And you know, like sometimes in your life you leave communities or you know, little circles that you've been in, you have to leave them for some reason or other, but it just happened all at once for so many of us where, you know, now we wanna go back to these places or back to seeing the people we did before and they've all at once, like they've moved away or So, especially with that upheaval, I think I just feel like we're ready for like that in-person connection again. I, I worry sometimes though that y because we have members who aren't necessarily able to mix that way. Like, I don't see Or sorry, we, we have members who, you know, for, they have disabilities or things that make them high risk so that they aren't able yet to go back to in person. But I, I hope that those who are ready and and willing to do that can have an opportunity to do so safely. Yeah. And I think long-term, having more local groups is just gonna be more sustainable. Like I loved coming to Century to see all of you, but in some ways for sustainability of the Earth, it just makes sense to have more local communities so that you don't have to fly halfway across the country to be part of a community. So I hope. Yeah, so I hope we see more in-person communities and I'm gonna do, we're gonna do a gathering at the, for the Ohio atheopagan soon in, in March. And yeah, I'm so excited. I didn't, we did one several months ago but I hope. I'm kind of hoping to like turn the ideas or Ohio Athe, pagans should know. I'm probably gonna be like, try and turn them into Guinea pigs to see if, like I can create something fun to do that we could recreate someplace else. So,  Mark: Any. Resources like that that you have that would be useful to affinity groups, really welcome you to submit those and get those out into the community. I know that a lot of affinity groups are sort of, they're flailing a little bit about, you know, how do I do this? How do I find people what do we do, you know, if we do a get together, you know, well, what do we do during our get together? Robin: Yeah. And three years ago it would've been like, oh, just go to, you know, go to Starbucks, go to Panera, hang out and talk. And we. Like, some of our members aren't ready for that yet. And so looking, I'm trying to find other options that isn't like, you know, hang out in a cafe and take your mask off. It's more like, so what we're we're doing in the March gathering is we're gonna make journals. So, I'm just gonna bring stuff and we're, we'll make some journals. I went down this rabbit hole about book finding, so, yeah, hopefully something cool comes out of it. Yucca: Is March warm enough in your part of the world to be outside or it'll be indoors with masks? Yeah. Robin: we're, we're meeting at a library, which if you're looking for like a free place to meet, Check out your local library. Some libraries have meeting rooms that you can book. As long as the library's not using it for a program they're usually happy to to let you book them. So, check that out. In community centers yeah, but March in Ohio, it may be 70 degrees out and it may be snowing. We have no snowing until approximately five minutes before the time. What, which one it will be. Yucca: Right Robin: Yeah, which I remember New Mexico being kind of like that in March too. So. Yucca: Absolutely. Yes. Mark: Comes in like a lion or comes in like a lamb, as they say. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: Yeah. Yeah, that's a, I mean, I, I think that's a particularly rich and fruitful vein for us to, to, to mine in, in developing the Ethiopia Pagan community because, I mean, ultimately, Paganism, the earth orientation of Paganism is very local, right? It's really, really place based. And so, you know, developing your own traditions for your own local area that are about your own climate cycle, your own landmarks, your own biota that are there. I mean, I just, I have this very rosy sort of picture. Little knots of atheopagan all over the world, you know, kind of working up their own ritual cycles and traditions and it's, it's very heartwarming when I think about it. Robin: Yeah, and I love that focus too. On, on. Ecosystems cuz like you, I can't help but notice you have a background. Your background is like mountains with lupus in it, which is a very spring-like thing in California. But here it's like, like we aren't gonna see those spring flowers until April if we're lucky So Mark: right. Robin: yeah, I mean, I remember snowstorms on May 1st. Happy melting. Aren't you glad Springs here? Mark: Yeah, it could be worse. Could be raining. I have danced a may pole in the pouring rain. people were just like, they're not taking our may pole away from us. Yucca: Slosh, slosh, Mark: Yeah, exactly. And I had a terrible cold afterwards and the whole thing was pretty miserable, but we danced the May pole that year, Robin: That's great. Mark: so, Robin, are there other topics you'd like to talk about? Things, important things for the community or you know, kind of suggestions of things we could do with a podcast or, you know, any of that kind of stuff. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but. Robin: Number one, I would love to come on and talk about, I could do like six episodes on children's books. I wouldn't Yucca: should definitely do that. Robin: That's probably a lot. But I would love to come on and talk about children's books and some of my favorite children's books cuz like I said, I can talk, talk about 'em for a long time and there's just so much rich art and poetry in them that I think I think we need to appreciate some more. So yeah, I'd love to talk about that. Maybe, hopefully we'll get to relaunch that library and I can come and talk about just library resources too. So, yeah, and yeah, like I said, like I, I have ideas. I don't wanna just like start spouting him off because I don't know how much is going to be realistic. But yeah, Mark: Yeah, there's a, oh, I'm sorry. Go Robin: Oh, I, I just hope we have more good things to come. Mark: Oh, I'm sure of it. I'm sure of it. The, I was gonna say, You know, I've worked in the nonprofit sector for a really long time, and there is a thing that happens with young organizations where they can actually die by opportunity. They just get stretched in so many different directions by all the opportunities and ideas that get tossed in the hopper, and they lose focus and they just kind of fall. And we, we really need to be careful about that because there is a lot of wonderful stuff we could be doing. I mean, at the Sun Retreat we had a suggestion to create resources for starting campus chapters, like on college campuses or even high schools. I think it's a fantastic idea and I definitely think it's on the back burner. It's something we shouldn't talk about for the next three years. Robin: Yeah. Well, and, and that's not to say that we. At least make some movement towards that. Like, you know, I don't see cuz like I'm, I'm not a college student, I probably am not gonna be able to go out and create a campus chapter of atheopagan. But there are already existing lots of. Of colleges have Pagan student organizations. Maybe the middle ground there is we say, Hey, well, you know, I volunteer. I will come out to your Pagan campus organization meeting and give you a presentation about atheopagan. So, like there's, there is like, there is a way to scale it back if that's something that we're interested in doing, but don't necessarily have the resources to do 100%. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. We would need to create sort of a packet about how you set up your group and but then what I like about your suggestion is that most people live in an area where there are only a few colleges. So they would only be making a handful of presentations instead of managing a program, like a national program of college chapters. Robin: Yeah. And, and I think it gives, you know, if there are people in those college groups that already exist, an opportunity just to know that atheopagan is an option. Like you don't have to be like deity based in order to be pagan and. And like, even if they don't go on to create their own atheopagan college organization they still have those resources and, and that knowledge and that can be really empowering. Mark: Yeah, and it helps to build open-mindedness in the new, in an upcoming generation of Pagans too. You know, because one of the things that non theist pagans have experienced in some parts of paganism is real pushback from theistic pagans who are kind of threatened by the idea of people not believing in their gods. And I think exposing people to these ideas can help them to become more comfortable with just as an option, as another, another possible way for people to be. Robin: Yeah. Well, and I think you did were you the one who wrote a blog post saying that like, atheopagan, or I'm sorry, humanistic paganism was like the number three blog now, or  Mark: that was actually John c Cleland host over on the naturalistic paganism blog. Yeah. That it's kind of amazing. I don't know how they calculate this, but there it is. Robin: Yeah. And it, I'm gonna make a bold prediction, and I, I might be wrong, but I do think that, and I, I experienced a little bit of that early on, but I, it's just become less and less common now. Like I started, I, I have like a TikTok where I occasionally talk about Ethiopia, paganism, and it's like, by no means like an official Ethiopia, pagan thing, but I was expecting like somebody to be like, you can't be this. And I, I've gotten nothing but positive comments on it or people saying, oh my gosh, I didn't know this was a thing. This is great. So I, I'm just gonna make a bold prediction and say that I think I hope will be a problem in the past, Yucca: Yeah. Robin: I, it's a really actually interesting question to think about. What would, like, what will the Gen Z pagans be like? That could be , that could be a whole podcast episode, Mark: Oh yeah. Yeah. Cause I mean, it's interesting. What I have seen is that an awful lot of the kind of boomer, gen X pagans, they have kids who are now grown who are not practicing. A lot of them are, are not continuing in paganism, and some of that may be because of experiences that they had as kids at Pagan festivals. Either being ignored or uncomfortable, I don't know, but kind of a thing. Robin: One thing that gives me so much hope about Gen Z and these young generations is they're so diverse. They're exposed way more to different ideas than I ever was as a kid and that older generations. So that is what gives me the most hope like they are. They are very much they have a lot of what's the word I'm looking for? Cultural. They, they have a lot of cultural competency and they have a lot more perspectives and ask access to more perspectives than we did growing up. And so, and they care. Like they, they, they're very active and they gimme a lot of. Mark: Me too. The, the amount of care that I see young people taking with making sure to properly gender one another and, you know, to, to try to draw diverse people into their circles of friends. It's, it's so different than it was when I was a kid. And it, it may very well be that what we're seeing is not that paganism is being abandoned, it's that the last generation's paganism is being abandoned. And that's a very different thing because I mean, I do see a lot of spontaneous ritual creation going on. I mean, the. Which thing is very much alive and well. But maybe it's not, you know, descended from Gerald Gardner and, you know, traditional in that way, which is fine. Robin: and there's, I mean, there's things, if we look back, Joe Gardner, I mean, there were things then that were problematic and Mark: Oh yeah. Robin: I, I hope that they're going to create a craft that That reflects more modern values Mark: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Well, that's certainly what we're trying to do. You know, that's, that's why we have the principles and it's why we have ongoing conversations about to be the best people we can. Yucca: I think it's exciting. It's, there's been so much change in just the last few years, so. Mark: Yeah. And the inevitable backlash, of course, Yucca: No, that's how it goes. Mark: yeah. But backlashes don't last. They, and they generally don't win. So, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: I mean, the only, the only one that I can think of that has won successfully, is now under siege for women who refuse to wear hijabs. So, in Iran Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I mean the, the Iranian revolution was definitely a backlash to western colonization of Iran. But now they're having a backlash to the backlash, and hopefully they're gonna modernize. I would hope. Robin: Yeah, it's just because like sometimes we look at these efforts as like, this is doomed. Like, you are not going to win this fight to resegregate the the us us. But to me, I mean, I worry though that just because something is doomed doesn't mean that it isn't going to cause harm as it happens. Mark: Sure it's gonna hurt people. It is hurting people, and we have to be really aware of that and do what we can to minimize that. Robin: Yeah. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: Well, Robin, it has been wonderful talking with you and we are definitely gonna have you back to talk about children's books. I can envision a series now on atheopagan Parenting. Robin: Yeah, I do not volunteer to talk about parenting because I do not have children. I love children. I do not have children. But I will happily always talk about literacy and books. So we should do it. Yucca: and I, I think the books would be wonderful for parents, but as you were talking about, children's books aren't just for children. , right? There's so much, you know, I read a lot of children's books cuz I have kids, but I have my favorites that I'm like, don't you wanna read this one? I'll just put this one on the top of the pile. And frankly, if I didn't have them, I'd probably still be wanting to read those, the kids books, even without kids, because there's, I mean, sometimes the art is amazing and you know, there's just so much. So I hope that that would be valuable too to our listeners who aren't parents or don't have. Younger people in their lives. Robin: Yeah, and I will say as from a librarian perspec librarian's perspective, like just because a book is written more with the parents in mind doesn't like, just because it's a book that the parents love a lot and the kids are like, oh, whatever. Kids enjoy spending time with adults and they learn from having books read to them and they in, they like, the thing is they will laugh because you're laughing or they will think something's funny because you're la you're, you think it's funny and that quality time with your kid. As long as the book's not completely going over their head it it, it's gonna benefit them. They are gonna learn from that and they're gonna learn to love reading and they're gonna learn to love books and learn to be curious about the world. So like, I give, like one of the books I give out a lot and recommend a lot. I, I recommend it because the parents think it's funny. Like kids are like, yeah, it's cool. I like it. But the parents are the ones who are laughing at the inside jokes. And that's the book is mother Bruce by Ryan Higgins. So like, and it's to, it's about a, a grumpy bear who mostly likes to make recipes that he found on the internet. And parents always laugh at that part. And then kids see them laugh and laugh. Yucca: I'm gonna write that one down. I have not heard that mother Bruce. Robin: short version. it's cute. And then there's, there's this like whole mistake and identity thing and it's hilarious. And it's hilarious to parents. Kids think it's funny, but parents think it's really funny. So, short story. Don't feel like just because it's a book that you, that is kind of more aimed at you doesn't mean that your kids aren't getting something out of it. So, Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: Yep. Well, Robin, thank you so much. Robin: You are welcome. Thank you for having me. Thank you for, I hope I didn't ramble too much, Yucca: Oh, this was fantastic. I think a lot of great stuff. Yeah. Thank you. Mark: Yeah. Robin: thanks. Yucca: All right, well, we'll see everybody next week. Thanks so much. Robin: Have a good evening.    

Continuing our series on famous Wiccans, this week we're talking about Gerald Gardner, who needs no introduction.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com.   S4E2 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host, Yucca, Mark: and I'm the other one. Mark. And today we are talking about invented holidays and we're talking about adapting the Wheel of the year to really fit your needs and your climate and what's going on in your practice. Mark: Right, because one of the things that we do in Athe paganism, or generally in naturalistic paganism, is we. We focus on what's happening in our immediate surroundings naturally, rather than try to follow a calendar that's based on the climate of the uk, for example. Mm-hmm. , which is the more traditional wicked approach. What we do is say, okay, well what is happening in nature around us at the beginning of February? You know what? What creatures are around? What's happening in the soil, what's happening in the sky? What, what part of the life cycle is happening at this particular moment, and how can we best celebrate that? And that can be everything from the rituals that we do to what we actually name the holiday.  Yucca: Right? And I would imagine for folks who live in a more urban environ, , they might bring in other things as well as, as the, their year is changing in different ways that isn't just about the soil or the animals, but what's happening within the city itself. So it's, you know, sure. Whatever your particular life is and what's really meaningful within your life.  Mark: Right, right. For example, I could see if you live in a city the beginning of August holiday being something that was real would really focus around culture. It's hot out. Mm-hmm. , you may not want to be actually outside doing stuff cuz it's hot Yep. You may wanna be in museums or art galleries or music halls or. You know, or going to the ballet or the opera or the symphony or a punk club or whatever.  Yucca: Or evening time activities.  Mark: Yes. Yeah. Yes. All of that. That actually fits pretty well in with my concept of that holiday, which is sort of a celebration of both work and the achievements of humanity. So technology science, those kinds of things. But, we'll, we'll, we'll get to talking about that. The point is that if you're in a city, you know it. Some of the holidays may be more about the achievements of humanity rather than what's happening in nature. Mm-hmm. in your immediate area. Or  Yucca: another way to approach that would be recognizing that the activities of humans I is an aspect of nature as  Mark: well. Okay. That's a better way to put it. Yeah. Right. Yeah, for sure. Because we are natural creatures, right. We're. Quadra Pitt animals just like other Quadra Pitt animals on the planet. We just happen to have these large four brains and thumbs mm-hmm. and they lead us to do a lot of very creative things.  Yucca: Yeah. And that's, you know, that's one of our special things about our species, so and so, and those things that we do. That too is is nature, right?  Mark: Absolutely. So there ain't nothing That ain't Nature . Yep. Well, Lisa, that's what we  Yucca: believe. That's, yep. I mean that's a, that's pretty foundational for us. So, now in addition to the Wheel of the Year, though, there sometimes are places in. Our seasons and our lives where it seems like, like a holiday or a celebration recognition. Seems very appropriate. And so that's one of the reasons we wanted to talk about this today is Mark, you have one coming up, which you've mentioned before. That is just such a delightful idea. ?  Mark: Yes. Next Saturday, the third Saturday in January is when I celebrate Slog. S L O G G. All capitals. Mm-hmm. . It's not an acronym, it doesn't stand for anything. It's just I guess it's all capitals because it's this sort of repudiation of of what's happening in the, in the weather around us. By the, by the end of January it is, it's been cold and still quite dark and wet in most places. For a while. Mm-hmm. and all of the festivities of the December holidays are well behind us, and we're back at work or back at school, and it can just get to be kind of a drag. And so I invented this holiday slog because we're slogging through the dark and wet and so forth, . As a way of having a festive celebration at that time of the year. Mm-hmm. . And I mean, it, it, it just sort of struck me as a, as a sort of whimsical idea to start with. But I've been celebrating it now for five years and it's become a part of my seasonal routine. And slog is the, it's the winter, the deep winter, Demi sabba. So it's not quite all the way to the Sabbath at the beginning of February. But it's still deep winter and it's time to. Kind of come inside and do cozy things. Mm-hmm. . So it's a time when we wear festival, silly hats, , and we drink warm, cozy beverages like mold, wine or hot cider or even hot cocoa. Any of those things. Alcoholic or not. Mm-hmm. . Where your, your warmest, thickest pair of socks and Stay inside and play board games and just celebrate with other people. Mm-hmm. , have, have a little community and a little festivity. In a very relaxed, you know, wear your pajamas. It's . It's, it's the kind of thing where you shouldn't have to make any real effort in order to accomplish this. All you have to do is get together, pull on a good pair of socks, stick on a funny hat, and you know, heat yourself up some mold, wine at, at the stove, and you're there. You're, you're done.  Yucca: What are those blankets that you can wear called, They're like onesies. Well, it's like a onesie, but it's like basically like a big sleeping bag, but you got arms like a Snuggie or so, anyways, whatever they're called. Oh, that must be, yeah, those, those sound perfect for slog, right? Just get that nice snuggie blanket on and  Mark: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And And particularly the idea here is to, especially for people that are suffering from seasonal affect disorder, because this time right around now can be the very worst for people that become depressed seasonally. And that social interaction and that warm cozy feeling and sort of, you know, creating a warm nest away from. The cold of the outdoors. Mm-hmm. , becomes really important I think. And so, you know, drawing our our isolated friends out from their houses, people that, you know, are struggling with the season because, you know, a lot of people do mm-hmm. ,  Yucca: Especially the, the farther north you are. Yes. For those of us in the Northern Hemisphere, right? Yes. That it really, you know, we forget how far north some of our some of our cities are, but when you actually look at it in a globe, you go, wow, you're not getting much light, are you? Yeah,  Mark: we're, we're pretty far up there. One of the things that I learned that really shocked me when I lived in Spain Yeah. Is that Madrid, and New York City are on the same parallel. It's wild.  Yucca: Yeah, it  Mark: is completely wild that those two cities are on the same parallel. Yeah. What that means is that Western Europe is very far north, way far north, equivalent to Newfoundland and on up into the Northwest Territories, you know, far, far, far up into Canada. There's a, there's a YouTuber that I love named Yana Yin. Mm-hmm. , who she lives in northern Sweden, in, in, you know, in adjacent to a forest. And she's an artist and does stuff, but she's also a YouTuber that, that does these wonderful seasonal. Celebrations of what her life is like at different times of the year. And I remember there's one which was in the deep of the winter and they finally had a day that was clear and it's just her sitting in the sun. And she said, you know the, when the moment when the winter sun first hits your face, it's like, it's like if you're really thirsty and you have that first sip of water, That's how powerful it is for folks that live that far north because they're so deprived. And this is after taking vitamin D tablets and Right. You know, you know, having full spectrum indoor lights and all that kind of stuff. And still there's nothing like the actual sun to Yeah. To stimulate that, that feeling in the body and. You know, long way of saying it, but Slog is about taking care of ourselves in that time. Mm-hmm. and doing it unapologetically, you know, and in a way that's a little silly. Mm-hmm. . So, it's, it's an opportunity for us to be playful and to kind of pull ourselves out of the muck of. Of the kind of climate conditions that can be happening at the third week in January. You can do the same thing in the Southern Hemisphere in the third week of July. It's, you know, exactly the same kind of principle. You can just plug it in at a different time of year.  Yucca: Right. Well, or something else within your own environment. Right. That might, you know, for us, we don't have. That wetness, right? That what you're describing, the slog, it's for us, this is our cold. This certainly is our coldest month of the year. It's very bitter. But it doesn't have quite that same kind of slogging through. At least for me, I have this kind of, there's this quiet stillness to this part of the year still. Mm-hmm. right? Uhhuh. and I, but I suspect that a lot of that is simply because the climate. Are so different. Right? There's such sure, you know, we're so dry here. And I know you do get Dr. Quite dry very brittle in your summers. Yes. But your winters are, are quite different. Right. Yes.  Mark: So there when, when we have a normal winter, we're, we're actually having a very wet winter this year. Mm-hmm. , we have a, a long series of these so-called atmospheric river storms. Mm-hmm. that are these giant conveyor belts of moisture from the tropics that whirl up into and up against the west coast of North America. . We've had six of them so far, and we expect four more over the next 10 days. So just wave after wave after wave of pelting, rain and then snow at the higher elevations. And this is more of what I remember from when I first moved here, God, 40 years ago. Longer. Mm-hmm. , Was that the winters January and February were consistently very, very wet. Mm-hmm. and we would have flooding every few years and it was just a really wet time. Yeah. And then we started having droughts and mm-hmm. it's been kind of on and off with drought ever.  Yucca: When you describe your winters and you describe slog, the image that pops into my mind and the sound is, is having those, those big rubber boots on. Some people call 'em wellies. Yes. Squishing through the mud. You're just squish, squish through the mud until you get to the warm house and you can kick your boots off and put your nice blur fuzzy socks on. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. And, and even, even sort of, Walking through ankle deep water in a pair of wellies, right? Yeah. I mean, the wellies will keep the water out, you know,  Yucca: but you gotta work twice as hard to get those feet up. Yeah, that's right.  Mark: Yeah. And you, and by the time you get home, you're well ready to be in a place that's warm and isn't raining on you and. And where you can enjoy a hot drink and put on a funny hat. . Yeah, .  Yucca: So we have a, a holiday that that my kiddos made up last year and they're very excited about doing it this year as well. So it's, it's probably gonna end up being a tradition for us. We'll see. But they made up snake. Snake day. Snake day. Yes. And where we live there are a lot of snakes and we do have rattlesnakes. So it's, and since they're so little, it is a big deal to really be very vigilant about that. Because you really don't want, you, you don't wanna be. In any situation, you don't wanna be bit by a rattlesnake. My mother was actually, she had this scar from it and, you know, apparently had, was not a very pleasant experience, but with a child that can actually be very dangerous or with an animal. So, but we also love the snakes and there's, and we have both snakes and, and non venomous snakes as well. We really only have the one kind of just rattle snakes that you have to watch out for. But it's something that is, that is exciting because when the snakes are back, It's summer, right? It's kind of, we talk about their, there's not really four seasons here. There's eight seasons or two seasons as I see it. Oh, . There's, there's the warm and then there's the cold. But when the, the snakes come back, it's the warm. But the, the, that day moves because the day that the snakes come back is. Is different each year. Um mm-hmm. , and I can tell you after decades there's the different species will come out at different times, right? You'll see the little fence lizards and things out weeks before the snakes are back. But when the snakes are back, you see one, there's 10, right? There's 20. They're all, I think they actually d together. And they, they come out interesting at the same. Even though they're interesting solitary animals usually, right? But when they, when they hibernate, they're not. So their idea was we draw pictures and make little clay snakes and make all of these things in preparation in the coming weeks. And we're looking for them and looking for them. And then the first day that we spot the snakes is when we bring out all the snake celebration, the pictures that they've been drawing over the weeks and put them up. And they've actually been bugging me about when do we get to. Prepping for snake day. I'm going, it's, it's January . Hold on for a while. We're not there. But that's really meaningful for, for our climate, but also for our particular family because somebody who lives in one of the cities doesn't have to deal with that. Right. Because they, they don't have, they've gotten rid of the snakes in the city, so they don't, you go out outside of it and Yeah, you'll find them, but not in downtown. You know, Albuquerque or Yeah. Or Pueblo or any of those types of places, you're just not gonna find them.  Mark: Well, but, but this, this brings up some, an interesting thing because what you're talking about really is the seasonal indicator. that that's the beginning of the warm, right? Yeah. That, that's the true warm, yeah. Yeah. When, when the, when the snakes are confident enough that it's gonna stay warm, so they won't get marooned out in the, and have it suddenly freeze. and kill them. Yeah. That's, that's a turning point in the year for you. And there are other turning points in the year in various kinds of climates that would make total sense as holidays like I know that in Canada, First snow is often celebrated as as a thing, right? Mm-hmm. the very first snow, well, here it is, winter is here, you know, officially. It's, you know, because we don't get snow unless, So, unless it's winter, so this is the time in the tropics I could see holidays, like the first day of monsoon rain. Mm-hmm. , or the first day of the, the heat that follows in the dry season after the monsoon rains are gone. Or  Yucca: the return of a particular bird. Right. Right. When that, when all of those birds are coming back in some areas that have The cherry blossoms. Right. And some of their more temporary areas of the, the spring, it's like, oh, yep, it's, it's spring, you know, when the, they start to bloom. Mark: Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a big deal in Japan. Yeah. And and in Washington DC . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Cuz they have the Japanese cherry trees. Yeah. So that is a way mm-hmm. , that we can augment the eight holidays of the wheel of the year with meaningful and and frankly practical celebrations that, that add to our celebration of living around the course of the year. Right.  Yucca: Both of the examples that we gave each from our own environments, they really have that practical, yours is about, or at least part in, about the keeping the connection with the friends and, and, and looking out for your loved ones and neighbors and that, and getting through that time period. For us, there's a, a safety element of, okay, now we know we have to. more aware, like kids can't run off on their own. Like there's this, it's, there's the practical part, but we add that extra like kind of special meaning to it on top as well. Mm-hmm. ,  Mark: right? Yeah. So, I mean it doesn't all have to be practical. Some of it can just be celebration for the sake of it. Mm-hmm. Cuz you know, we're all about that. We think that's great. . But the, the I think the upshot here, the point here is that the cycle of your year doesn't all have to be about a, a calendar. Mm-hmm. , I mean, astronomy works on a calendar. We have a sun cycle, we have lunar cycles. Mm-hmm. , you know, those are predictable and we can put 'em on a piece of paper and then we can say, okay, day after tomorrow is when I'm celebrating the, the full moon. Mm-hmm. , that's great. And and it's a great thing to do, but it's not the only kind of holiday. Some of them are a movable feast, right? Mm-hmm. , some of them are. Or when it's just practical to, or, or when some indicator in nature in the world outside US says, okay it's, it's time to do this thing. Yucca: Yeah. Hmm. And then of course there's other ones like birthdays and death days and anniversaries and, and all of those.  Mark: Yeah. Right. Yeah, because, and, and like, Yuri's night for example mm-hmm. , which is the anniversary of the first human going into space and orbiting the earth. Mm-hmm. , in April the April 12th, I think it is. I acknowledge it every year, but I never remember.  Yucca: I'm pretty sure it's the 12th, maybe the 11th. I'm pretty sure it's 12th. 12th, so Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's the 12th and there's pie day, right?  Mark: Pie three 14, and then there's TA day, which is 6.28, which is double pie day. Okay. Tau is is two pie. Yes. So Tu pi r is your circumference of mm-hmm. of a circle. Right. So, so Double pie Day is June 28th. Mm-hmm. . And you get two pies. So it's  Yucca: okay.  Mark: About Pirate day. Oh, go on. Yeah. September 19th, international talk, like a pirate day. We always celebrate it in our household . We have, we have P gear that we can put on and we can talk like we're From the Westlands in England, which actually has nothing to do with what Pirates talk like, but did have to do with what the actor who played Long John Silver in the original Hollywood production of Treasure Island sounded like. Mm-hmm. . And that's why everybody thinks Pirates talk that way now. . Yeah. So there you go. All right. Einstein's birthday, which happens also to be pie day 3.14. Mm-hmm. , celebrated by atheists A lot to celebrate science and critical thinking, and particularly a good one for atheopagan, I think because. Einstein rather, like Carl Sagan was of a philosophical mind. Mm-hmm. , he wasn't just a technician, he was also a thinker about, well, what does this all mean? ? Mm-hmm. , you know, where, where, you know, where did the universe come from and how does it work and what can we take away from that in terms of meaning for us as humans. And that is very much in line with our approach to the. Yeah. So why don't we talk a little bit about the, the formal wheel of the year the, the two equinoxes, two solstice, and then the four midpoints between those four stations. That was invented in the 1950s by Gerald Gardner and others. Mm-hmm. , many of these holidays have been celebrated traditionally for a very long time by various different cultures, but they haven't all been pulled together into a single map of eight holidays around the course of the year until the 1950s. Right. Which is one reason why in atheopagan we're comfortable drawing on it because it's not really cultural appropriation. It's something that was invented by a retired English civil servant in the 1950s. Mm-hmm. , that's, that's, that doesn't qualify as cultural appropriation.  Yucca: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that there's, there's more nuance to that discussion though, in terms of the choices that he made and how much of what he did was appropriating. I, I think that there's, I think there's more to be said about that and explored. But that today it is a very widespread approach and there's a strong. There's, there's a lot of logic to it, which is what I think makes it so appealing today. Yes, because those dates are built are based on real concrete. Things. Right. We're talking about the solstice. Right. That, I mean, humans have been doing, we talked about this a couple weeks ago, more than a couple, a few weeks ago with the solstice. We've been doing this for, we know, thousands and thousands of years at least.  Mark: Right? Right. Yeah. These, the, the solstice is an equinoxes are astronomical facts. They're not cultural artifacts. Yeah.  Yucca: They're the dates that we celebrate them. Yes. That's a little shaky there. Yeah. Yes,  Mark: exactly. The, you know, if, if you celebrate your winter solstice holiday on December 25th, that's cultural. Mm-hmm. , because it doesn't actually happen then. Right? It happens on the 20th or 21st and that moment. Is simply an astronomical fact. And facts are available to everyone. Yeah.  Yucca: Well, and also when it appears on a cal, like the Equinox, for instance or the solstice, if it happens at two in the morning at utc, when it gets so calendars, unless it says otherwise, they're always gonna give it basically in. Universal time. So you might actually be off technically by a day or two for what it is in your time zone when the, you know, but, but when we're talking about those, how important is being? Exactly the day onto you or can you be off by 12 hours or off by 15? Like each person has to decide that for themselves. I've set it an alarm cuz I think it's fun, , but, oh well. We actually celebrate kind of as, as close to the date that it is convenient to us.  Mark: Right. That's, that's when I do my rituals. Mm-hmm. , as close to the date as is practical. And that's usually a weekend or something like that. Mm-hmm. . But on the actual, at the actual moment, I mean, I like to take a moment and go, oh wow. Okay. It's, it's the equinox, the, yeah. We're right at the point. Right at the point where we're crossing the ecliptic right now, which is we  Yucca: set an alarm and go Woo and ray, shake our hands in this, in the air and then go back to what we're doing.  Mark: Yeah. Uhhuh. . That's great. Perfect. But another thing that you can do is you can build traditions around the actual time and then, Do other traditions in the convenient time. Mm-hmm. . So just like you're, you're talking about my imagined celebration that I would love to do at some point in one of these events that is, It happens deep into the night. So like at two o'clock in the morning, you know, the, the solstice rolls around. What I would like to do is to do midnight margaritas, like in the movie Practical Magic I just think that would be a perfect thing. I, I just think that that would be a really fun thing to share with adults, obviously. I mean, you wouldn't do that with kids, but  Yucca: Sure you would. I mean, depending on the kid's age, you might wake them up for the two. , you know, they can have the sparkling water or whatever it is that they particularly like,  Mark: right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, that's, so that's basically how we approach the Wheel of the year. Do you want to talk a little bit about. Each of the holidays or how we  Yucca: Oh yeah. Well, I think instead of, instead of going into each of them, because we, we do that throughout the year. We'll, pretty soon we have the February holiday coming up. We'll be talking about that. But I think what might be interesting to do is talk about how, so you and I are both established in our, in our places pretty well. But if we were to move. Our wheel. Wheel of the year would probably change the way it looked, because yes, if we were to suddenly go to another climate, then some of the things, some of the themes are gonna stay the same, but different things are happening in the different climate. So it, how would you approach an, let's say you moved to Miami. Right next week you got the Dream Job offer and you decided that you were gonna pick up everything and move to Miami. Wow. How would you start building your Wheel of the Year?  Mark: Well, I think I would do it as we've talked before with a phenology journal. You know, I, I think I would have to start by doing a bunch of data collection about what's going on around me, because, you know, the, the South of Florida, that's the subtropics. Mm-hmm. and it's laden with insects, none of which I would be familiar. Way, way more insects than I'm really interested in , interested in contending with, but there they are. The insects are there.  Yucca: Oh, there's some pretty amazing ones though.  Mark: There there are. It's true. Yeah, it's true. There's  Yucca: And it doesn't necessarily have to have to be Miami, but I would, you know, I was just picking something that seemed very different from where you are. I think  Mark: that's a great example. Yeah. So, you know, being aware of. I mean, the sunrises and sunsets would be at radically different times there than they are where I am. I'm way farther north. Mm-hmm. than that. So the first thing would be gathering information about what's going on in the natural world and how those things cycle. And it might take me, you know, a year of gathering information before I started to make adjustments in. In my holidays I know that I know that for someone that I know who lives in Tampa there is a moment in September-ish when the temperature finally becomes tolerable. because it's so humid and so hot in the summertime that you don't really do outdoor things very much. Mm-hmm. , because it's just so hot and oppressive and so the time to go and do outdoor things is not in the summertime as it is where I am now. Mm-hmm. , it's, it's later on in the year simply because the conditions are, are different. Hmm. You know, when, when you get to the deep of winter and it's 70 degrees mm-hmm. That's just a very different kind of condition to, to set up. So I don't know. I would think that some of the things that I would probably end up celebrating might be, I mean, I might take on the carnival kind of, celebrations, you know, like Mardi Gra and so forth in. You know, the early wet parts of the year are still at a time when you don't collapse from heat exhaustion. Mm-hmm. , right? So it just, I don't know, but I would have to find out what it was like when I was there and then do my celebrations accordingly.  Yucca: Mm-hmm. . It's a very similar approach that I would take, I think is just the really observing. And it would probably take a take some time because you don't know that what year is a typical year or not what you're experiencing. I mean, you can communicate with people who have been there longer and read and do all of that, but I think that I would probably still. Recognize the, the holidays as they came along, but would know that each year I was building onto them. Right. I might be thinking about the summer solstice more in terms of what's going on with Earth's orbit and just kind of keeping an eye out and an ear out for what's happening in my new ecosystem. Mm-hmm. and then incorporating a little bit more each year, kind of like. Like when you move to the new place, it would be like your first few years are you getting to grow up in that spot, even if you're an adult already, you, you know, your first few years you're kind of figuring out life just as a human. You move somewhere, you have a few years to figure out life in that new  Mark: place, right? Yeah. That's, that. That's very similar to how I would approach it. I mean, I have a very mature. Cycle of celebrations now because I've been living in the same place for a long time and have been, you know, accumulating information and traditions around that for a long time. Mm-hmm. , and it would take a while if I moved somewhere else to, for that, that level of development to happen again. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So. I guess where we're going with this for our listeners is first of all, to feel a lot of freedom around how you celebrate. You know, you do not have to celebrate the February holiday as in bulk, the time when we cast seeds out onto the snow. If you live in a place where there ain't no snow ,  Yucca: And or here, don't put any seed. Where I live. Do not put your seeds in the ground. They will die in the beginning of February. They won't work. Yeah.  Mark: right? You do. Don't plant  Yucca: until  Mark: May. So . Yeah. So, you know, be aware of where you are and relate to that place. Initially I think. Well, okay. Nevermind. Let me, let me retract the beginning of that sentence, what Paganism has come to mean for many. Mm-hmm. is about a deep relationship with nature, right? I mean, the initial threads were things like free masonry and western ceremonial magic and, and a whole bunch of stuff that may not have had anything to do with that. But what modern paganism has come to mean for many of. Both naturalistic, paganism pagans and non naturalistic pagans is a deep relationship with reality, with, with the natural world. Mm-hmm. Earth based. In order to have that Yes, we're, we're earth's earth based.  Yucca: Yeah. That's what the earth-based part means, right? Right. Yeah.  Mark: So given. Once again, as we've talked about so many times, you know, the, the, the greatest pagan skill is simply to pay attention. Mm-hmm. , you know, to, to be connected with what's going on around you. And it's a, it's a hard skill to cultivate because in the routines of our life, we tend to just sort of skip over things and we may not notice that that tree now has leaves growing. it's been bare for months and, but now suddenly it has some leaves leafing out on it. Noticing when that happens, noticing that the buds were there before the leaves butted out. That's an important moment and it tells you something about what's happening with the season that's coming. So, feel latitude to adjust. Your wheel of the year to reflect what you're seeing around you, because ultimately what we're celebrating is life, right? Mm-hmm. , we're celebrating what's real, so we don't, we don't have to have a symbolic celebration about some other climate somewhere else that somebody experienced a long time ago and wrote down. Yucca: That's beautiful. We're accustomed, but that doesn't Yes. That's not necessarily your experience.  Mark: Right? Right. Yeah. And we are, we are very accustomed in this culture because we are taught by the over culture to get our cult, to get our, our spiritual experiences prescribed by what's written down. in books, whether it's the Bible or the Talmud, or or you know, somebody's, you know, big book of witchcraft or whatever it is. And what we're seeing is you can get input from those kinds of themes, but ultimately the, the script of, of the nature path that's around you is written in nature. Right. And that's where you can, that's where you can find the deep wisdom about what living in your place is about. Mm-hmm. Yucca: Well, this was a good conversation. Thank you, mark.  Mark: Yeah, yeah, you're welcome. And, and I hope that this, let me see this podcast will post. On the 16th and the following Saturday is slog . So if you find any appeal in the idea of suspending the dismal of winter, wherever you are for a while and having a celebration, feel free to take advantage of that holiday. And don't forget to wear a silly hat.  Yucca: Right. And if you have rainbow toe socks, those sound great too.  Mark: I need  Yucca: some of those. They're, they're great. Then you can still pick things up with your toes. Fantastic. Ooh, . Alright, well we will see you all next week, so. Alright. Thanks everyone.    

We've all done it; we've created Sacred Space by calling the Spirits of the Four Directions. We stand at each direction and draw the appropriate pentagram and we Invoke the Spirits that have the appropriate character. But where does all that mumbo jumbo come from? Some say Gerald Gardner, which is correct to a point. Others say that Witches have been doing that on their own and in secret, like, forever - which is really not at all true. So this week we're going to find out who or what the Watchtowers are and where they came from. They may or may not have something to do with Archangels, and Archangels may or may not be a Christian thing. Don't worry; I will not leave you in suspense for long. But, like everything else, The Watchtowers DO have something to do with Stars; and so does the story of Orpheus, and his Lyre. We'll see how those tie together. And I also we'll hear from Lon Milo Duquette as he talks about "The Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram". Be well. Do good. Enjoy the show!

If you lived in Brentwood in the late 1960s and 70s, you may have encountered a charming, transplanted Englishman named Raymond Buckland. You many not have realized it at the time, but Buckland was in the process of establishing Wicca as a religion in America. A private practitioner at first, introduced to Wicca by Gerald Gardner, Buckland was soon thrust into the public eye by the press. He then helped popularize Gardnerian Wicca through television appearances, newspaper interviews, and his own numerous writings on the subject. He went on to found his own museum and his own tradition of Seax Wicca. On today's episode, we talk with Peter Ward (Brentwood Public Library) and Ellen Edelstein (Brentwood Historical Society) about Buckland's time in Brentwood, his connections to the library, and his position in the area's long history of the colorful and spiritually-minded. Further Research Buckland Museum of Witchcraft & Magick Brentwood Public Library: Local History Brentwood Historical Society Raymond Buckland on the Dick Cavett Show (1971) Video Gallery (Buckland Museum) Articles Raymond Buckland obituary (The Wild Hunt) An Interview with Raymond Buckland (Llewellyn 2003) "At a Witchcraft Museum, Halloween is more than Trick or Treat." (NYT, 10/31/1971) Books by Raymond Buckland (Open Library)

La Wicca es una de las muchas creencias que retoma religiones y conceptos paganos y los aterriza en tiempos actuales. La creencia Wicca surgió en 1954 gracias al británico llamado Gerald Gardner, el cuál retomó prácticas antiguas de brujería inglesa Wicca y la incorporó a conceptos modernos, creando así un híbrido de brujería actual.

Talk about a new moon, new book! This episode runs the gamut - Gemini and Scorpio talk about Gerald Gardner, the Devil, fairies, Baba Yaga and the importance of permission in a little over an hour as they discuss Kelden's The Crooked Path. 

Steven Intermill is the director of the Buckland Museum of Witchcraft and Magick in Cleveland, Ohio. The Buckland collection includes artifacts from Raymond Buckland, Gerald Gardner, Lady Rowan, Aleister Crowley, Sybil Leek, Anton LaVey, Israel Regardie, Scott Cunningham, and many other leaders of the Pagan community. Featuring artifacts from the original collection, the museum's mission is to display the tools and imagery of Witchcraft and Magick, while celebrating the First Amendment and the power of outsider art.Steven got his passion for sharing interesting artifacts from his previous position as the curator of A Christmas Story House & Museum, and his interest in the arcane truly grew while performing with the outré synthesizer act, Telecult Powers. He spends his evenings with spouse Jillian and his three cats Berti, Robat, and Lil Richard.On this episode, Steven discusses the history of the Buckland Museum of Witchcraft and Magic, the story of its visionary witch founder Raymond Buckland, and the importance of preserving Ray's magical legacy.Pam also talks about drawing strength from pioneering Pagans during tumultuous times, and answers a listener question about finding the magic of New York City.Our sponsors for this episode are Black Phoenix Alchemy Lab, Snowy Owl Tea, The Many Moons Lunar Planner, Weiser Books, BetterHelp, Good Sigil, and the Psyche Magic podcastAnd if you want more Witch Wave, please consider supporting us on Patreon to get access to bonus Witch Wave Plus episodes, Pam's monthly online rituals, and more! That's patreon.com/witchwave

We're going to go through the hidden symbolism of the occult film Hocus Pocus 2! We covered the satanic rituals and adrenochrome of Hocus Pocus 1 back in October 2021 so it's only fitting we come back for the sequel! We'll go through the film and discuss some of the hidden symbolism you may not have caught! We'll talk about the Red Witch, the All Seeing Eye, spiritual warfare, Aleister Crowley, Gerald Gardner, the Mass of the Phoenix, actual witchcraft rituals and more! Don't forget to check out the images like the Red Witch with the All Seeing Eye at Instagram.com/IsaacWeishaupt Links:Hocus Pocus 1 MIND BLOWING show from Nov. 2021: https://illuminatiwatcher.com/hocus-pocus-film-analysis-disneys-sex-magick-satanic-adrenochrome-witchcraft-ritual/Show sponsors- Get discounts while you support the show and do a little self improvement! 1. ATTENTION CRYPTO NERDS!!! CopyMyCrypto.com/Isaac is where you can copy James McMahon's crypto holdings- listeners get access for just $12. Get 10% off your first month of starting your happier life at BetterHelp.com/IlluminatiWatcher 3. Free 30 day trial to great audiobooks at Audible.com/Illuminati (or text “illuminati” to 500-500)Get bonus content AND go commercial free + other perks:* VIP: Due to the threat of censorship, I set up a Patreon-type system through MY OWN website! It's the VIP section of illuminatiwatcher.com! It's even setup the same: FREE ebooks, Kubrick's Code video! Sign up at: https://illuminatiwatcher.com/members-section/ * PATREON: almost identical to VIP Section; you can join the conversations with hundreds of other show supporters here: Patreon.com/IlluminatiWatcher More from Isaac- special offers:1. Check out another free podcast I make with my wife called the BREAKING SOCIAL NORMS podcast- it's all about the truther (me) lovingly debating conspiracies with a normie (my wife)! Go to BreakingSocialNorms.com You can get it free wherever you listen to podcasts (e.g. Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/breaking-social-norms/id1557527024?uo=4). You can get the Uncensored and commercial-free option at Patreon.com/BreakingSocialNorms3. Signed paperbacks, shirts, & other merch: Gumroad.com/IsaacW5. Get 3 books for $5: https://illuminatiwatcher.com/how-to-get-free-books/6. ALIENS, UFOS & THE OCCULT IS NOW UP ON AMAZON AND AUDIBLE (*author narrated): https://amzn.to/3j3UtZz7. If you want to hear more from me AND also want to support the show, search for "Isaac Weishaupt" on Audible and pick up my narrated audiobooks! My most popular book- THE DARK PATH! https://www.audible.com/pd/B0759MN23F/?source_code=AUDFPWS0223189MWT-BK-ACX0-095441&ref=acx_bty_BK_ACX0_095441_rh_us AND the popular alien books USE YOUR ILLUSION are also on Audible: https://www.audible.com/pd/B08NRXFNDM/?source_code=AUDFPWS0223189MWT-BK-ACX0-223105&ref=acx_bty_BK_ACX0_223105_rh_us8. Check out the 9 books by Isaac Weishaupt on the Amazon Author Page: https://www.amazon.com/Isaac-Weishaupt/e/B00CWH6PHQ%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share*Want to advertise/sponsor our show?
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The Buckland Museum of Witchcraft & Magick in Cleveland, Ohio is the latest in a long legacy of witch museums leading back to the founder of Wicca, Gerald Gardner. Steven Intermill, founder, curator, and host of the most recent iteration, joins the ritual to discuss how the museum came to be. Tune in the Buckland Museum's magic at: https://bucklandmuseum.org/ Join the ritual at: www.patreon.com/thispodcastisaritual Follow me on Instagram @personisawake

Welcome to Witch Whispers, our weekly minisode series coming to you every Wednesday. Each week, Leigh and Lori will take turns picking a bite-sized magical topic to hold you over until our full-length Friday episode.This week, Lori digs into the life of Gerald Brosseau Gardner, also known as the "Father of Wicca."TO VIEW A COMPLETE LIST OF OUR RESOURCES, PLEASE VISIT OUR WEBSITE.MERCH! MERCH! MERCH!Support the show

This compelling account of eccentricity and Witchcraft in the 1950s and 60s revolves around two principal characters: 'Rex Nemorensis' (Charles Cardell), son of an internationally famous Victorian stage magician, and Ray Howard, owner of the Head of Atho - a representation of the Horned God of the Witches reputedly over 2000-years-old. From the luxury of his country estate, Cardell trod his own unique path of modern Witchcraft, the reality of which was e ectively put on trial in a High Court libel case brought against a major newspaper, following an article by two reporters who had hidden near Charles' sacred Grove. What they witnessed, would change Cardell's life forever. This book, based on new research, explores their fascinating lives and examines their writings and relationships with other witches including Gerald Gardner and Doreen Valiente. For the first time, the writings of the Coven of Atho are reproduced. They reveal its previously hidden gems and provide a workable form of Witchcraft blended with Druidic influences. The glistening strands of this story are woven into the larger history of the origins of modern Witchcraft in Britain. Here be Magick...  Listen to this delightful coversation between Karagan and Melissa about this fascinating story and book. 

My guest this week is the author of several books on magic, Qabalah and witchcraft and his blog has been on my personal reading list for quite some time now. He had stopped blogging some time ago, and when I noticed he had restarted publishing new entries I decided to reach out. Frater Barrabbas Tiresius got back to me and explained that the break was only due to work and travelling a lot and he would soon publish a new book, ‘Talismanic Magic for Witches', coming out in February 2023, so we set up this interview for this episode of the podcast. Frater Barrabbas was born in 1955 and grew up in a small town in Wisconsin. From a pretty early age on he realised he was sort of different and didn't really fit in. Defining himself as a ‘seeker' he managed to get kicked out of Sunday school for asking too many questions instead of ‘simply having faith'. Growing up in a Protestant family with a father who was a member of the military force there was quite a lot of discipline required and being different was not really seen as a positive trait so Frater Barrabbas created himself his own world where he could retreat to. Discovering witchcraft in his teens by reading Gerald Gardner's books (which he actually found boring) it was Paul Huson's ‘Mastering Witchcraft' and Lady Sheba's ‘Book of Shadows' that made a difference and prompted him to be initiated into the Alexandrian tradition by Christopher Synn in his early twenties. This was also the catalyst for getting into touch with the Golden Dawn and its practices and community of that time. Frater Barrabbas originally wanted to become an actor, however he wasn't very good at memorising scripts, and assuming different personas, so went on to get a university degree in English. All along the way, magic and witchcraft were his chosen paths. This episode of the show will highlight quite a few topics that are close to Frater Barrabbas' heart such as his special relationship with Catholicism which might surprise some of our listeners. However, he will explain in great detail the concept of the Catholic mass as a powerful system of energising magic, the role of the priest and that of transubstantiation and also the connection to ancient concepts of sacrifice. Further topics we will be discussing are the role and relevance of magical/occult groups in general and their egregores, how they influence the individual's abilities and workings, democracy vs. autocracy within healthy and less healthy orders, the difference between ceremonial and ritual magic, initiation and self-initiation and the ‘otherness' that creeps up one's spine as the reason for practicing the occult arts. Frater Barrabbas will also have some good advice for anyone just starting out on the path not really knowing where to begin and how being an openhearted sceptic helps in navigating the flood of information available on- and offline. The three books of the "Witches" series by Frater Barrabbas. The third, "Talismanic Magic for Witches", is due in February 2023. But there are also other books by Frater Barrabbas to discover ... Frater Barrabbas' homepage His books on Llewellyn And his highly interesting blog Music played in this episode Somehow the fact that Frater Barrabbas mentioned briefly "The Age of Aquarius" in our talk, that triggered in me the need to look for "Aquarian music" 1) AQUARIUS - Xan Griffin On Xan Griffin's website you not only find all of his g...

My guest for this episode is author and magical practitioner Melissa Seims, who joined me talk about her new book Here be Magick: The People and Practices of the Coven of Atho, which tells an unusual story set in the early post-war years of the UK, a period that was an interesting time in the history of witchcraft in the country as changes in legislation had allowed people to explore their interest in the occult more freely. Some began searching for evidence of pagan traditions that had survived into modern times and this would ultimately lead to the emergence of 'Wicca' in 1954, a movement championed by a retired civil servant named Gerald Gardner. Here be Magick however focuses on the lives of Charles Cardell, the son of an internationally famous Victorian stage magician and Ray Howard, an unusual character who claimed to have been bequeathed a mysterious artefact called the ‘Head of Atho' a striking wooden altarpiece featuring an array of occult symbols and purported be thousands of years old. The idea of the coven itself has a somewhat confusing origin but seems to have been born out of the relationship between Cardell and Howard, which started well but ended acrimoniously with accusations of witchcraft and a messy High Court libel case. In the interview I talk with Melissa about how her own interest in magic and witchcraft began, and then we move on to discuss how she progressed from first writing about the Coven in a 2007 article onto researching and writing about the people and events who together make up the story of the Coven of Atho in much more detail. For more of Melissa's writing and to get a copy of Here be Magick, go to https://www.thewica.co.uk/. If you would like to support the upkeep of Some Other Sphere, you can do so via Ko-fi. To buy the podcast a coffee go to https://ko-fi.com/someotherspherepodcast. Thank you!   The Some Other Sphere theme is from Purple Planet Music - 'Hubbub' by Geoff Harvey and Chris Martyn.  

Magic ritual and little understood areas of the human consciousness share big acreage on the paranormal farm, and the border fences gave many gaps. The following individuals are recognized explorers of that realm. Gerald Gardner, Franz Mesmer, and Eliphas Levi are the subjects of these episodes.

This episode is our third installment discussing people, past and present, that made a mark on the occult world. On this episode we discuss Austin Osman Spare, Gerald Gardner, Cecil Williamson, H. R. Giger, Sully Erna, Ray Sherwin, Doreen Valiente, and Robert Cochrane. Some you may know, some may be new to you, and some you may not have even realized their role in the world of the occult. ------------------- Links for the Bitchy Witchys book series: 101 Oil Blends for Spells and Rituals: https://amzn.to/32mgwkw 101 Herbs for Your Magick Practice: https://amzn.to/3tvpIii 101 Divination Methods: https://amzn.to/3sseY3c 101 Tips for New Witches: https://amzn.to/3e9VpY8 ------------------- Buy us a coffee! https://www.buymeacoffee.com/BitchyWitchys Watch us, like, and subscribe on YOUTUBE - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcFYaQtwUdla6dC2xI0ULpA Support our PATREON@ https://www.patreon.com/bitchywitchys Visit our WEBSITE @ https://Bitchywitchys.com Follow us on INSTAGRAM- @bitchywitchyspodcast (https://www.instagram.com/bitchywitchyspodcast) Listen and follow us on APPLE PODCAST - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bitchy-witchys/id1501706938 EMAIL us @ talktothebwitchys@gmail.com Hestia https://instagram.com/hestiasherbiary?utm_medium=copy_link Jason https://instagram.com/truewitchcraftllc?utm_medium=copy_link Bela https://instagram.com/belalunas_broom_closet?utm_medium=copy_link Brandi/Gypsy https://instagram.com/wildsoulslifecoach?utm_medium=copy_link ------------------- Image Attributions: Gardner Museum Display - Ethan Doyle White, CC BY-SA 4.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0, via Wikimedia Commons HR Giger - Ars Electronica, CC BY-NC-ND 2.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.0/, via Flickr Xenomorph - Artur Rydzewski, CC BY-SA 2.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/, via Flickr Sully Erna - flipchip/lasvegasvegas.com, CC BY-SA 3.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0, via Wikimedia Commons Godsmack - Stefan Brending, CC BY-SA 3.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0, via Wikimedia Commons Doreen Valiente - Allison Marchant, CC BY-NC-SA 2.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/, via Flickr --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/bitchywitchys/support

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E16 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder: Science-based Paganism. I'm your host Mark. And today we're going to talk about ways that nature-based or science-based paganism differs from a lot of the mainstream paganism practices that are happening out there in the community. are ways that what we do are fundamentally different there are reasons for that. And so we're going to address what those are and talk about the differences.  Yucca: Right. And this isn't an episode about bashing anyone for being different or saying that they're bad or anything like that. It's just talking about how we have a different approach, right. And there's paganism is a really, really big umbrella. And so you might find a lot of these things when you look up paganism or neopagan, but it is. Necessary that not everybody is going to follow or share these ideas. So we found a few really good kind of classic ones to talk about. Mark: Right. Yeah, because there are, and, and we should be clear. There are lots of pagans out there that are. Practicing using these ideas. And they, they may be practicing using other ideas that are different than what we do. Heathens, for example, folks that are following north Germanic of traditions, they may not, be using the more Wickens style formatting of rituals or principles. But This is very, these are the things that we're going to talk about are very widespread. And so we're going to talk about the ways that what we do is different. And I think it will be illustrative for folks that have been in the pagan community  Yucca: Oh,  Mark: or have heard about the nature of the pagan community about why a science-based paganism approach is substantively different than some of the other pagan approaches that are out there.  Yucca: Right. So, which of these do you want to start with? Mark: Why don't we dive into the three-fold law.  Yucca: Right. So the idea of this is that whatever you put out there is going to the universe is going to send back to you three times. This. Right. And some people think this is only when you're doing ritual or spell work and some people take this as just in life in general.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Right. we don't believe that. And the reason that we don't believe that is multiple one of the main reasons is that I'll, I'll speak for myself and you can chime in, if you have a different take I do not believe that the universe has a moral order.  Yucca: Right. Mark: The university isn't conscious it, isn't trying to make us a particular way, follow a particular set of rules act in a way that is honorable or that meets some sort of ethical or moral frame. And you have to have that in order to have the three-fold law because the. There, there has to be some sort of judgment. It's like, whatever is coming back to you, threefold. Well, is it good or is it bad or is it know, what, what would be an appropriate reflection back to you? If that were really going to happen. And I, I just don't believe if that's the way the universe works. I know that many pagans and following other religions, such as some flavors of Buddhism really and even Christianity want to believe that we are here on earth in order to establish some sort of morality. And in my opinion, working to establish morality is fantastic, but it's for this life and this world, it's not for an afterlife. It's not in some great cosmic scheme. It's just that I want to act as a good and moral person so that my impact in the world is a positive one. As much as I can.  Yucca: Right. Yeah. That's also really well said. I agree with you on. And I think also the math doesn't really work out on it. That just doesn't really make sense for that. I do think that there is, there definitely is something where the way that we behave does influence our experience in the world, but. In this law of this one to three kind of thing. Definitely where if I am in a better mood and I smile to the cashier or, you know, I'm in a better place when I'm driving, like all of these things are going to influence how I experience the world and how people are going to respond to me. But. But I don't think that it's, as you were saying that, the universe or this or anything like that, doing it right. That this is just the natural response. Right. I do something there's a response to it and it's not there's nothing, mystical or accounting. That's, there's no accounting happening. Mark: Right, right. That's the simple cause and effect of social relationships, right? When. we relate to people in an affirming way, in a way that says, I like you, then they tend to  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: back with, I like you too. If we treat people in a manner that says, I don't like you, then likewise, they tend to respond with. I don't like you.  Yucca: Hey.  Mark: It's a very, you know, simple, fundamental, but also very human thing. It's not, it's not sewn into the laws of physics. It's sewn into the nature of the social dynamics that we have as people.  Yucca: Yeah. That's social primates, right?  Yeah. That's, that's just, millions of, years of evolution there. Mark: Right. And I mean, I always use This example when we talk about the three-fold law Yosef Stalin, who arguably the most murderous human ever to walk, the planet died peacefully in his sleep. He probably killed 25 million people possibly more through starvation and extermination programs and just a whole lot of really horrible, horrible  Yucca: Okay. Right. This is not this knowing perfectly well what he was doing. Yeah.  Mark: He, he killed millions of people in Ukraine, through starvation by exporting all of their food Russia and leaving them with nothing. Which is a huge piece of the subtext between and Ukraine. That's going on now.  Yucca: Right. Mark: That's, that's a history that is not forgotten. It's very recent. So anyway, stolen. Died peacefully in his bed. Didn't get any kind of, you know, negative feedback from this terrible stuff that he did. And when you think about it, even if he had, what could that have been? he have been killed 25 million times?  Yucca: 75.  Mark: Oh, 75. million times. You're right. Cause it's threefold. So it's just, it's very hard to fathom how that rule would really work in any sort of a literal sense. It all or, or like many sort of truisms or aphorisms about human experience. There's a kernel of truth there about, you know, the way you behave. Often gets reflected back to you by other people  Yucca: yeah. Mark: as we were talking about. And that is a kernel of truth,  Yucca: Right.  Mark: that it's this mathematical thing and that it always happens is really not not the case as far as we can tell.  Yucca: Right.  Mark: The other piece about about the, the three-fold law is that what's often used as kind of an excuse for why the three-fold law doesn't seem to work out. In some cases like Stalin is that, oh, it'll happen in a future life, Right. That there's reincarnation. And as science based pagans, we do not believe in reincarnation  Yucca: Yeah, I don't see any evidence for it personally.  Right.  Mark: I don't believe in it. And the, the primary reason that I don't believe in reincarnation is because of dualism, which we talked about before, on a previous episode, the idea of the self, the personality being different sort of an energetic thing, being different than the body, whereas. My perspective is that it's all integrated.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: comes from the body. The mind can't exist without the body. And when the body dies, the mind is gone.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And that means that there is no reincarnation. Yucca: And then it's changed throughout its life. That it is not the same. Mind or body that it was when you were born to when you die,  but they're different. Just very, very different. Yeah. Mark: There are even sort of logical challenges with aspects of the three-fold law. Like if I did something really shitty when I was 25, does it make sense for me to, you know, reap the damages of that when I'm 60. Because I've changed. One of the things that I've  Yucca: Um,  Mark: about is learning what a crappy thing it was that I did. And not doing that again. And so, mean, I have things that I've done in my life that I'm ashamed of and that I would never do again. And I, I did them for reasons that I understand now most of The most of them involving cowardice  Yucca: The trauma.  Mark: just, fear, you know, rooted in trauma. but There, there are things that I would never do again. And I do not feel that at this juncture, I deserve some sort of punishment for having done those things way back then.  Yucca: Right? Well, and then if that did happen, And then wouldn't you be more likely to do more shitty things and then just, it becomes this, really strong, positive feedback loop of more bad things happen, you do something bad and then that bad things happen to you. So you respond in kind and do more bad things and then more like it just spirals completely out of control there. Mark: Right there. Are there a lot of different ways that you can look at this and just say, you know, when you really unpack it from a logic standpoint, it doesn't make, just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And once again, that is not to say that, you know, people that are practicing with that belief are not doing so with a motivation and, you know, the desire that, be a guideline. For being a positive force in the world, because it's clear that that's what people mean by it. It's just. I, I find that it's a lot more useful for me  Yucca: Oh,  Mark: the atheopagan principles to have things really spelled out for me in, in a, in a very specific sort of way. So, you know, we're going to review the earth, we're going to practice rituals to embody our religion. We're going to have integrity. We're going to be inclusive. We're going to, you know, seek justice, all of those kinds of things. Because it's, it's very, very clear exactly what those things mean.  Yucca: Right. So you had touched a little bit on afterlife. So I think that's another good. Just to come back to, we sort of spoke to it a little bit, but, but that's something that neither of us believe in and it's because right that it, it needs there to be a soul. It needs there to be something separate from the body and there's no, real evidence to support that it would be there. So, so.  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: This kind of cosmic karma. It wouldn't make sense for that to be carried through either  that okay. We're.  Mark: no. And, and honestly, there is a moral reason why I think. Ideas are not only incorrect from a scientific standpoint, because what they do is they turn the earth into a proving ground for moral just in the same way that Christianity and Islam and Judaism do. And the idea is that there's some kind of reward some kind of a reckoning. That happens after death.  Yucca: Great.  Mark: what that does is it relegates the earth to a disposable status.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: You know, this is, this is just this temporary situation where we have to perform, but it's not, it's not worthy of our primary focus And reverence and service. And that is the opposite of how I view my relationship with the earth. The earth is it life is it. And if I am going to have positive impacts in the world, if I am going to enjoy this, this one-way journey that I get through the miracle of having been born against. Astronomical odds with my particular genetics in my particular upbringing to become this particular person. Then I'm really missing the point  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: I'm, I'm kind of spinning my wheels in my view. Yucca: And also it, it can justify letting really terrible things happen to people, right. Because, oh, it's there. The a kid being in the neighborhood that gets bombed and it works zone, right.  It could be, oh, well, that's, you know, it's karma. Yeah. But that's, you know, oh, they were stolen last life. Okay. It's fine. Right. Like,  no, they're just a kid. They're just a kid in the neighborhood that it's not okay to be, bombing them or whatever the particular thing is. Oh, it's okay.  Mark: Yeah. the approach that, that I have and that I believe you have as well, Yucca is. Because it's all about this life and this world, the burden of responsibility on us is much higher. You know, you would, you would think that, you know, if trying, if you're gunning for a particular kind of afterlife, you know, that would put more pressure on you to behave well and so forth. And maybe That's true from a fear-based standpoint, but I don't want to live my life. From fear.  Yucca: That's right.  Mark: to live my life from joy and from generosity. And from from a real sense of reverence for the surrounding that that I am interpenetrated with. right. We've talked about this before, you know, in.  Yucca: We're an open system. Mark: That's right. We've got air going in. We've got water going in. We've got waste going out. We've got sweat. We've got all of that, all that stuff. We are blurred into the fabric of life, all around us. And so in our. Our inability to see water vapor or oxygen or any of those things kind of gives us this illusion that we're these discrete little billiard balls bouncing around in the world, we're not, we're, we're deeply interpenetrated with the rest of the world. And. So my sense of responsibility to this life, to myself, for my experience and to my society advocating for values that that serve people and serve my sense of what is just an equitable It is much higher, I think, than it would be if I believed in an afterlife, especially in afterlife where I get to try again because reincarnation or karma, as opposed to like the sort of heaven or hell differentiation, where it's just sort of a one-shot  Yucca: before you die, you're cool. Right? That's fine. It doesn't matter. Mark: Right. Which I mean, that's a formula for sociopathy, right? Because you can do all these terrible things, then all you have to do is repent and accept Jesus on your deathbed. And you're cool. I think that's a disaster myself and I certainly see in very conservative Christians, kind of idea that they can be awful people, but Jesus loves them. So it's okay. That is not a framework that I am the least bit living interested in living within. And I don't believe it jibes with what we know about the universe at all.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So what else were we going to talk about in terms of these  Yucca: Oh,  Mark: pagan ideas  Yucca: well, here's, here's the big one. Now this is specifically a Wiccan, but, and if he harm none, do, is he well,  Mark: Oh yeah. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which I believe originates with Alistair Croley who was  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: deeply problematic person. I think it's fair to say. I think where he was going with that was, was a, a radical. Differentiation from the, the mentality of Christianity, which is here, are these commandments here, these rules in a sacred book, have to  Yucca: conform. Conform. Conform. Yeah. Mark: And he was saying, no, don't conform. If you're not, if you're not causing any harm, then do what. And my problem with that is not that idea in and of itself. It's that first of all harm, none is impossible.  Yucca: Yeah. It's as simply not possible. I mean, what's happening in your body right now? Who do you consider? None,  you know? Yeah.  Mark: are the bacteria and the cells that are dying and being killed as you digest and as, as you, as your body metabolizes, that harming somebody?  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I mean, it's certainly harming those cells. They're being torn apart into component materials And being used to feed your body. Yucca: And we're heterotrophs no matter what particular diet you got, somebody dying for you to be alive, is that, is that harm, right?  What about the house that you're living in, you know, on and on? Mark: right. Yes. And so, The question is what kind of harm and how much. And we have to make choices, understanding that there is no such thing as a fully pure angelic kind of existence  Yucca: We're not,  Mark: cause any harm to anything.  Yucca: yeah, we're not Sims we're, we're real things. Right. So, and I think that that going back in. If you haven't listened to our episodes that we do about Beth and decomposition, when we get around to hollows time, that could speak to a lot of this. But that, yeah, the world is we look around at this beautiful, incredible world that we're part of and soil it's soil. Death right. It's life, but it's just, all soil is made from the bodies of trillions upon trillions of others who died. And I would argue the bed dying is harming that wasn't great for them, right. For them as the individual. Yeah.  Mark: Right. But there is a, there is a greater good or a, a larger systemic good that comes out of the process of death, which is the, the, the sustaining of future life. Future  Yucca: Okay.  Mark: of life. mean, I'd be good for us  Yucca: No.  Mark: die of. But it's, but our decomposition feeds more life and continues for, for the thriving of life here on earth. Yucca: Great.  Mark: So it isn't so much that, that if it harms none, do what you will is wrong so much as that it's vague.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: It doesn't really acknowledge. The nuance of how we, we exist here and what kinds of organisms we really are. And it doesn't acknowledge all of the situations where either you have to harm  Yucca: Okay.  Mark: And then you have to decide what it is you're going to harm. Which is the decision that we make in the course of food choices all the time. Right. Am I going to eat this vegetable was grown in crop agriculture that kills tons of wildlife? Or am I going to eat this cow with. Was a living animal big brown eyes and,  Yucca: Family and.  Mark: and. In a, in a personality because cattle do have individual personalities, they're not super bright, but like all mammals, they do, you know, they there's, there are characteristics that are notable. You know, that one cow will differ from another.  Yucca: Yep. I've had some that have purposely, knocked me over that's they liked and others that don't right. They're like, yeah, I'm going to step right up next to you and bump you.  Yeah, that was on purpose.  Mark: cows that like human tipping. I like it.  Yucca: Yeah. That's it's you got to watch out. But yeah, so that, that's a really wonderful example of it's, it's something that we're going to do. I think that being conscious of it is, is an important. Right. And on sort of a, on a surface level, like yeah, I'm into that idea. Don't, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else. Yeah. Go ahead and do whatever you want. Right. And I think on a sort of a social level. Yes. But as we're talking about the closer you look to it, I don't think that it's like this hard rule that you can follow. I don't think it is. You can't, I don't think it's possible to follow the rule because that's not the way. Organic life works. Mark: Yeah. think that what this can do though, is it can urge us to think about the impacts of our behavior.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And that's an important consideration. You know, because as we act in the world, especially as humans with all the tools that we have and the infrastructure that we've created, that can cause us to have a tremendous amount of impact. If we If we so choose being aware of what those impacts are and choosing to have impacts that are positive and as lit as harmful as possible is, is something that I think is of value. And that goes back to the thing that we just harp on in this podcast, which is attention. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Paying attention to you are in the world. What's going on with the biosphere in the world, what your places in the world, what your impact is in the world. of those things are just so very important to really be living a nature-based paganism your feet on the ground, and really aware and integrated and celebrating and respecting the natural processes going on in and around.  Yucca: Right. And that's actually a really good lead into another of these topics that we wanted to talk about, which was the elements and directions. And so both of us have this take that our specific location. Is really important, right. That we try to match our practices with where we are. What is it like here? Cause I can tell you where I live is very different than where you live or very different from Britain, bam, same hemisphere, but, but similarities, stop there.  Mark: Right,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah. And know, when, Gerald Gardner first published his books on witchcraft, you know, what became WCA and then. Kind of propagated into other forms of paganism, modern Neo paganism as well. Obviously he described the seasonal holidays as reflecting the weather cycle that he was familiar with. That makes total sense. it seems to have gotten lost in the translation that we should be celebrating the nature where we are rather than the nature in England. So for many practitioners, there's this sort of idea of, you know, the, the snowbound in bulk holiday, for example, Or the or the, the bright cheery. Belton when it could be, you know, pelting sheets of rain, or even continuing to snow, depending on where you are in the world.  Yucca: Or in areas that, if you're, if you're in Miami, the difference between your belting and the February, not going to be a huge difference there, you're not. Going to have that same kind of the subtropics is not the temperate zones,  right? Mark: Yeah. The difference there is mostly measured in humidity rather than in degrees.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So same is true with the directions and the elements. Steven poach, who is a wonderful pig and writer out Of the Midwest. And I highly recommend his writing. He, he writes short, pithy, wonderful little blog posts@witchesinpagans.com, which is also a place where I publish stuff. Once in a while. Stephen post P O S C H M. He tells this wonderful story about how he once a ritual by the banks of the Mississippi river. They were to the west of the Mississippi river and when they invoked the directions, they drove invoked water the west across more than 2000 miles of mostly extremely dry land. Yucca: Of complete brittle ecosystems.  Yeah.  Mark: to get to the Pacific ocean to call their west right when they were standing right next to the Mississippi river, which of course this, this gigantic watershed and, you know, very powerful river system. So if it had been me and I was going to invoke water into that ritual, I would have pointed at the Mississippi and. You know, invoked it the east, from the east, right. Because I want to be reflective of the place where I am. And so these kinds of arbitrary assignments of earth to the north air, to the east. Fire to the south and water to the west, don't really work for me because what, if you're in the Southern hemisphere and the, the really cold part is to the south,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: you, that should be flexible.  Yucca: Or if you live right next to some mountains, what is that going to be for you or? Yeah. Mark: Exactly or you live in a place where the predominant winds always come from one direction. You probably want to point that direction in order to invoke air, but I go a little bit further with that. I don't use the classical Greek elements at all.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And the reason that I don't use them is that even though they are useful in some metaphorical kinds of ways, I see them as a discredited pseudoscience. now know that there are more than a hundred elements that compose all of the things of the universe and. The idea that everything contains with it, air earth, water and fire is outdated. It's old, it's like astrology and alchemy and, you know, palmistry and all those kinds of things, which can be fun to engage in. But don't actually tell you anything about the nature of the world.  Yucca: Right with those ones in particular, I'll talk to my students about them as they were stepping stones. Right. They helped us to get to that, the idea of an element. Okay. Yeah. We still have that idea, but now. We understand it on a very different level. Yeah. We don't think of it as being four elements. We think of our hundred and 18. Right. And then, we figured out that, oh, actually, there are things smaller than elements. Let's talk about what that was. And same thing with astrology, which the name always bugs me because it's not a science, but the ologies makes it sound like it should be a science, but astronomy came very much out of astrology. Mark: Right.  Yucca: Right. They've they used to be together and merged and they've gone in different directions. And so it was, it was useful at some point, but it's not. But now we have a much better and deeper understanding of our world and how it works. And probably at some point we'll look at things, humans we'll look at the stuff we're doing now and go, that's not how it works. Right. We're wrong about that. But that's something that. That in science-based paganism do is that we look at our beliefs and are willing to challenge them. And when we get new data, we're the ideas that we should be willing to let those ones go and, and have new beliefs based on the new available evidence and understanding. Mark: Right right I know that some people use these elements to sort of stand in for the different phases of matter. So, you know, gaseous, liquid, solid and plasma, although a fire isn't really plasma.  Yucca: It is. Yeah, they can't, some fires can have plasma, but not very rarely the temperatures that we're going to be experiencing fires that that will actually get to a  plasma. And then there are way more phases than just the four observable phases. Those are just the ones that we're going to interact with on our scale and be able to see. Mark: yes. Yeah. So, I mean, I can understand using that as a metaphorical stand in. If that had pertinent to the point of the ritual I mean the invocation of the different phases of matter. I'm not sure how useful that is in, you know, thematically because I suppose you could do those four and then you could call the center as energy, But  Yucca: But all of them, that is, the phase basically is how much energy, how much kinetic energy the particles have, which changes some of their properties. Right. So what are the proper then you could keep going with, okay. So what are the properties right? That are embodied in each of these. I think that, there's definitely some really interesting intellectual stuff that you can do with it. I don't particularly mind to people do, I've kind of gotten away from using those elements,  right. It just doesn't really, you know? Mark: I'm I'm with you. I don't mind it.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: It doesn't, bother me. I just see it as another of these kinds of ye olden days, artifacts that got sewn into modern paganism because somehow the idea that older cult systems were valuable or Colt systems or valuable ritual systems. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Got the, you know? from the beginning Gardner was claiming that he was learning a tradition that had been handed down from the middle ages.  Yucca: Yeah. The old  ways.  Mark: Right. So the idea of the antiquity of these ideas was provided as an argument for their validity. And we don't subscribe to that. You know, sometimes a new idea is the best one. And certainly in the scientific community, very often a new idea turns out to be the one that fits the data the best.  Yucca: Right. And often we have to throw out some of those old ones, right.  Mark: right.  Yucca: Yeah. How long did we take Aristotle's? Some of Aristotle's like stuff as the absolute truth. Don't you dare question that or you'll be under house arrest  Mark: Right.  Yucca: or worse.  Yeah.  Mark: worse. Yeah. Exactly. And that was because the Roman Catholic church subscribed to Aristotle as an absolute authority for some unknowable reason.  Yucca: Even though he's a, Peggy was a pagan Mark: Well, yeah, he was not only, not only that, but  Yucca: and their broad sense of pagan. Mark: Yes. I think that what it probably boils down to is that he was the only real authority they had to point to for a cosmology. And he had believed in systematizing stuff. You know, when he, when he wrote about rhetoric, for example, and the art of persuasion and all that, he defined each of the human emotions that he was aware of. And he. You know, talked about the, the logic of of ethos logos and pathos, for example. But I that's a,  Yucca: Yeah, that's another, that's a whole nother podcast. Mark: is. Yeah. And that, that actually gets into what I did my undergraduate degree in. So it's a rabbit hole I could happily jumped down. So from our standpoint that the use of those elements isn't really necessary. But it's not necessarily objectionable either. just, I prefer at that phase of a ritual simply to invoke the qualities and characteristics that I want to be with me, as I invoke as. Evoke ritual as I enact ritual. And that will sort of be a takeaway for me after having done the ritual.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: so where, where are we now? What else?  Yucca: I think that this brings us to our last one. There's so many more that we could do, but looking at the theory versus the reality as really is in our, in our places, in our world. Right.  Mark: right.  Yucca: Cause there's definitely. And I think this goes back to, to some of the stuff we were talking about with Gardner and this romanticization of the English countryside and this idea of nature. And this is very, kind of over fantasized romantic way. The moon is always full and shining through the leaves and the wind is just a soft thing. And you know, all the animals are little foxes that are running around and where, that's, that's great. I think the mode is not always full, but the rest of that. Okay. Maybe like, yeah, that's, that might be the life that you've got there, but that's not most of the world and that's not where most of them. Awesome. Great for you. If you do right there, we know that some of you are listening to this podcast from there, but, but for me, I've got coyotes outside my window and, black bears, very different worlds and cactuses,  Mark: And as, as we have always said from the beginning of this podcast and, and I have to say as sort of a little bit of a tangent, one of the things that's been great about this podcast for me and our conversations Yucca, is that having an opportunity to really kick around these ideas evolved my. About some of them where I had kind of a half formed idea before. And I feel like I have a much clearer, more easy to articulate, understanding about some of these ideas now. So I really appreciate that.  Yucca: Thank you. Likewise.  Mark: What we go back to over and over again is the idea of immersion into place of being. Living animals conscious self-aware animals, you know, with that special gift, having evolved that, special capacity that humans have and other animals seem to have much less of you know, in a place, in an environment and understanding what that environment is doing and celebrating that. Even if it's. You know, what the, what the place is doing right now is being 115 degrees Fahrenheit. And what it's trying to do is kill me. You know,  Yucca: Or on fire like mine. Mark: Yes. I'm, which I'm really sorry to hear about. the fire season start already is  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So really encourage you in your science-based pagan practice to. You know, study the natural flora and fauna where you are, what are the, what are the cool, special things that happen in nature, where you are. And, and I promise you, there are cool, special things happening in nature, wherever you are, you know, whether it's Caterpillar's dissolving into goo in a Chrysalis and reforming themselves into a moth or  Yucca: Lichen on your. Um, wall, just look into what lichen is. That's a rabbit hole to go down. Mark: it is or bats coming out at Twilight to eat to eat insects or fruit. There are just so many things that are happening around us all the time that are just delightful. If you're aware of them and becoming more aware of the mix, it all the easier to sell. This earth and this life that we're granted and what we hope for you is a celebratory life, a life where you enjoy the pleasures of this world, and really feel a deep gratitude for your existence and pass that on to others. You know, communicate to others that, that sense of gratitude and a sense of and inclusion and appreciation for for the ways that they're similar than you and the ways that they're different from you. Right.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, this has been a great conversation and I imagine we'll probably get some comments or responses on this, which is great. Our email address is the wonder podcast Q S at gmail.com. That's for the wonder podcast questions. So the wonder podcasts, Q S all one word@gmail.com. And you know, we're happy to kick these ideas around. We understand that what we're doing is a very modern form of pagan practice. You know, we're, we're, we're deliberately dispelling or, not to spit to spelling where we're. We're leaving behind lot of the old occult or old witchcraft kind of, traditions and preserving ones that hold up in the light of modern science, like the idea of a wheel of the year, for example, solstices and equinoxes, which are very real astronomical events the mid points between them that mark important seasonal transitions in, in many places. So, thank you for listening as always. We love our listeners and you have a wonderful week and we'll see you again on the wonder next Monday.  Yucca: Thanks everyone.  

May Celebrations That Aren't About Sex: https://atheopaganism.wordpress.com/2019/04/10/may-celebrations-that-arent-about-sex/ How's that Maypole Thing Work?: https://atheopaganism.wordpress.com/2018/04/22/hows-that-maypole-thing-work/ https://theapsocietyorg.wordpress.com/community/ Beltane 2020 Episode: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/its-beltane/ Beltane 2021 Episode: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/beltanemay-day/   S3E15 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm one of your hosts. Yucca  Mark: and I'm the other one, Mark. Yucca: and today we're talking may day Beltane second spring, all of those, whatever name you call it. Mark: Yay. Summer is a coming in. And winter's gone away. Oh  Yucca: It is, I, we were just saying, this is actually our third may day episode that we'll be doing.  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: So we'll put the links to the other ones. If you want to check those out as well for inspiration and things like that, we'll probably talk about a lot of the same things this time around is that's one of the things about it was cyclical holiday year, right? We come back to some of the same themes each year, but hopefully there'll be some new things in this episode as well. Mark: Sure for sure. Especially because you know, now at this particular moment, we are in a place where we're sort of gingerly, tentatively coming out of COVID.  Yucca: I think we've said this so many times.  Mark: I know, I know. And who knows? I mean, there, there could be another variant that. Pigs the needle again, but I really hope that this around this time, when it seems that the numbers are generally low, people can have gatherings in person And, celebrate because in most places in the Northern hemisphere, the weather is beautiful and it's just a really lovely time of year. Yucca: And, and it's a holiday that is often associated with outdoor activity. Unlike say the winter solstice where it's a lot of it's about being bundled up and inside and cozy and sharing drinks with each other. And. You know,  Mark: right,  Yucca: has more of an outdoor, you know, in the park bonfire, those of you who live near the beach. Bet, that would be amazing know fire on the beach. Maybe that would be wonderful, but yeah. Mark: The. The image that I have in relation to Mayday or Beltane . And we're going to talk about naming in a minute has to do with emergence into the outdoors. It's like, you know, we've spring arrives in at different times in different places based on climb in elevation and, and All of those different factors. But by the beginning of may, mostly. It's comfortable to go outside and there's this kind of exuberance about getting out from the walls and, you know, out into the sun and experiencing the bright new leaves of the foliage and All that wonderful stuff. So it's just, there's a, there's an enthusiasm about this holiday that I really love.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So let's talk about names cause we've got a bunch of them, the the, the word bell team, which is used by most of the pagan community to, to designate this holiday. And we'll talk about what defines the holiday in a sec comes from the Irish bail to. Which is actually just the name of a month. It's the name of the month of may. And there's a similar word in Scott's Irish as in Scott's Gaelic as well. And both of those are often used as You know, kind of placeholder for the beginning of may holiday. But I don't actually use those Celtic names myself because I don't. Yucca: You don't have a specifically Celtic practice.  Mark: I I don't. And and I also deliberately sort of stripped cultural references out of my practice when I started doing atheopagan ism, because I wanted to avoid any possibility of cultural appropriation, which we're going to talk about in a future episode. And and I wanted there to be kind of a blank slate for people to create their own new traditions and symbols and all that kind of stuff.  Yucca: Sure and add, add to it. What is part of what's meaningful to them?  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: Right. Yeah. And no, and not saying at all that there's anything bad or wrong with any of the Celtic stuff. I mean, that's a big deal for my family. Right? We were, we identify as Celtic American, you know, we, we speak one of the Celtic languages. Actually my daughter was really interested in learning Irish because that was her grandpa's first language when he was little and in the home. When she was given some choices about what do you want to learn now? She didn't want to learn mom's language. She wanted to learn graph is language. So she's been learning it. And I'm in the background. I've been picking up on it a little bit. Right. Which is really very, quite fun to see the differences between the languages. So. So just to emphasize to everybody, this is not in any way of saying like, oh, like the Celtic side is bad or whatever. It's like, no, we're just saying, you know, everybody's going to be different. Their backgrounds are going to be different. My family happens to have a strong connection to that side of, of, of our heritage and, you know, for other people that's not their heritage or not a part that they connect with. Right. And that's totally fine. But the name Beltane is, is used pretty. Widely and much of the kind of Neo pagan community. Mark: Right. And, and it bears saying that we need to acknowledge that new modern Neo paganism, mostly stemmed from. You know, Gerald Gardner in the 1930s and forties and early fifties. And so it CA it was kind of a UK Britain, England centric.  Yucca: Yeah, well, he was English.  Mark: he was English. And so that was the lens that he was looking at everything through. And a lot of what we have inherited from those traditions is very Anglocentric,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: but paganism in and of itself inherently in terms of a relationship with the earth and and a ritual practice. That's key to the seasons of the year that, that. It's everybody and it has no language and it there's no particular culture that, that slotted to. So here's this holiday and it's defined as the mid point between the spring Equinox and the summer solstice. So it's. Yucca: It's the other side from, from Salween or  Mark: Or Hallows.  Yucca: So, yeah. Mark: exactly. So, and there are lots of cool parallels that you can do with those opposite sides of the year where built-in is often associated with sexuality and kind of life and vitality and fertility and all that kind of stuff. And Hallows is associated with death and decomposition and fallow fields and all that kind of stuff. Right. So you've got the, kind of the polar ends of the, the human experience happening there. So what are some other names that we use? I, I say may day, which is a little problematic, because what if you're celebrating? Not on May 1st.  Yucca: Right. There's made a, and there's also the association. I usually say Mayday as well or second spring. But there's the labor. Wright's association with may day as well. That comes up for a lot of people, which I think was a, was purposeful. And the, when that was chosen. But for some people they don't who aren't part of the pagan community. They don't know the pagan association and they only have the, the labors rights  Mark: Right, right. There's an interesting thing about international worker's day, which is May 1st which is that the United States deliberately put its workers day at the end of summer. In order to avoid engagement with those socialists and communists who were celebrating international workers' day on May 1st. So we have our labor day on the first weekend in September and nobody else does, but when those holidays were being defined like today there was a lot of fear around, you know, communism. So that's, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: how it happened. So, Yeah. Mayday or a second spring is another good one. I know that that's how you celebrate your, your holidays in terms of first and second seasons for each, each quadrant. And so let's talk a little bit about, you know, what the themes are and, and how we celebrate it. And then talk about some specific ritual things that we can do.  Yucca: All right. Well, there's definitely. Like you were talking about this coming out, this emergence, this, you know, waking up around it. For us, we think about it a lot as well for the annual plants, because this is the time where. You're getting the gardens going. I mean, our last for us usually isn't until the 15th, we'll still have a couple good frosts. And of course the fruit trees that aren't from this area are all blooming already. And going here we are. You know, zapped by another frost. But we definitely associate it with, okay, here are the, the annual plants that are coming back, the things that we're planting in the garden and the the flowering plants and all of our, you know, our Forbes and things like that. And the color. So it's still kind of blend. Sometimes the holidays blend a little bit. The last one for us was more about the birds and the feathers, but there were bright colors with that. And then coming into this, more of the colors and just again, that, that awake, that youthful that, you know, here we are,  Mark: Yes, everything's so, so fresh and new and sex is everywhere that trees and plants are all kind of hanging their parts out there saying, come and get me. And it's, it's just a very vital, very central kind of time. The air is perfumed in many places with the smell of all the different kinds of flowering plants. We just had  Yucca: clouds of Paul and the go by  Mark: Yes. Yes, exactly.  Yucca: clouds  Mark: Yeah, you can't can't help, but get it all over you. And if you have allergies, it's miserable. So it's, you know, it's a time when the world is really vital and even in desert climates, the world is really vital. I mean, the, the desert is palpably green. When you look out after the rainy season and, and after the snows have melted and you can see that things are really genuinely green they're there. They're not like tropical green, but they're definitely. Is  Yucca: like it does after winter?  Mark: I'm sure. Yeah. Where it's black and white  Yucca: Oh yeah.  Mark: it.  Yucca: Yeah. Even so even in places or even, especially in places in brittle environments, there's just such a change between one season to another.  Mark: Sure.  Yucca: just, the more you tune into it. I noticed for me every single year, I mean, I've lived in other places, but I came back to where I'm, where I'm from. Even growing up here every year, I noticed something different and new despite by being out and hanging out outside and just paying attention. Mark: Yeah. There's I mean, life itself is opportunistic, right? Life, life is always looking to worm its way into whatever niche it can find in order to thrive. But right now there's so much opportunity for so many different kinds of organisms and they all kind of pop at once. And so you get this, this feeling of genuine exuberance and delight. From from the world, you know, everything's doing its thing and seems pretty happy about it. So, you know, that may be me anthropomorphizing my plant environments, but there's a, there's a. There's a way that that it seems enthusiastic. I go back to that word again and again Beltane or Mayday. Isn't an enthusiastic holiday. And in, in my wheel of the year, I associated a lot with young adulthood. Where there's lots of energy things are brand new and you're kind of trying them out because, you know, oh, wow, look, I've got these leaves which I didn't have right. A month ago. I've got all this, this new agency as a young adult, I can make decisions for myself. I, I have power that I didn't have before. I have autonomy that I didn't have before. And so I'm going to experiment. I'm going to try new things. I'm going to. Make friends I'm going to connect sexually and explore myself and find out what works for me and how that whole dynamic works with other people. So it's there's, there's just a lot of, of of, of trying and getting it done happening around this time of year.  Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely feel that too. Mark: So, it's a glad time and it's not a surprise to me that the Christians decided to put their Easter right around this time, because there is a general feeling of. Of thankfulness for having gotten through the winter and have joy in the beauty of nature as it's blooming in front of us, that comes at this time of year. And while their themes are a little bit different in terms of salvation and resurrection and all that kind of stuff. The resurrection piece works well with dormant plants coming back to life and all that the salvation piece. Pagans don't have anything to do with, we got nothing to do with that.  Yucca: At least most of us don't, there's, you know, there's a lot of different kinds of pagans.  Mark: That's certainly true, but the, but the joyfulness, you know, there's a, there's a sense, even in the Christian Canon of this kind of joy and relief, right? Oh, we've been saying. Hooray. Whereas, you know, we don't feel like we need to be saved from anything but freezing and starving to death as pagans, but but we're really nonetheless that we didn't starve to death.  Yucca: I like that sun being higher in the sky. That is great. We got a lot of sun here, but it was getting a bit much in the winter. The winter lasts a bit long. Mark: Yeah. There's something about February, especially, that's Just really, really rough. It just,  Yucca: ah, let's keep rolling. Mark: Yeah. it, it won't last forever, even though it feels like it's already lasted forever.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So, shall we go into some ritual things that we can do or what our practices are? Yucca: So, I mean, before we go into specifically rituals, are there types of things that you're doing this time of year, just that, or are your sort of may day-ish season things that you do? Mark: Well, I like to get flowers in the house. And we just had our wisteria bloom along our back fence. And that of course smells delicious. And it's these beautiful cascades of purple blossoms and they're there they're mostly done now, but they were just so pretty when, when they were  Yucca: months ahead of us. Ours here will not flown for another few weeks probably. Yeah.  Mark: So there, there was that, and we've got roses blooming, and we've got Calla lilies, and there's an, there's a beautiful. purple Iris. That's growing in one of our wine barrels right now. So there's just. You know, paying attention to all that. Once again, we come back to paying attention, but really acknowledging, wow, it's just awfully good to be here. And there's a lot of beauty around that's, that's really the primary thing for me for this, this holiday, that, and I feel my body waking up. I, I have a higher sex drive. I have a Bigger appetite. I, I feel, and I, I'm kinda antsy about sitting around, I, I wanna leave the house and go and do things and all that kind of stuff. So, there's, there's just this kind of, I don't know, coming out of hibernation and being hungry, sort of quality to it as well.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: How about you?  Yucca: Well, it's a busy time of the year for us. And a lot of it is the focused on, again, not just going back out, we always change out colors in the, in the house. And that's kind of a gradual process of changing. I mean, it's the sort of thing we'd be doing anyways. The types of curtains we've got up during the winter are different than the ones we've got up in during the summer. And you know, changing out what's on the couch and all of that. And this year it's been quite fun because this is our. First like real season where we're at. And so we planted in the fall, we planted a bunch of perennials and I'm seeing which ones made it because that's one of the things of making it through that first winter. And I took some chances with things. This is not from our climate at all, but I thought I'll give it a shot. I have, there's a couple of little microclimates on our property. And so I tried some Papas, some American Papas and I'm going okay. So they, you know, they feel, find them in like, you know, New York, upstate New York, which is colder than us and they survive there. Mark: right.  Yucca: So three of the five I planted made it. Right. So that's, you know, We'll see how they feel about our summers, but  Mark: Right. Right. And they may, and they, may be a bit thirsty too. They may, they may want a lot more water than your desert plants.  Yucca: Well, I plan to do them in an area that gets that has some it's for us, a wet area drains into it. Yeah. And then it's so fun every year because the kids are getting older and coming into really being like people now. And my daughter's just making up all kinds of holidays. Right. And the reptiles are. So we've decided that we spent the winter learning about the different mammals in our area. And now we decided it's time to learn about the different lizards that we have. And there's all kinds of lizards that are here. And there's a whole bunch that I'm going. I don't know how I'm going to tell the difference between these three species. Cause they all look the same. You're telling me there's a little red dot behind one of their ears. Okay. So, That again, just that sort of bringing the spring in and bringing the humans out. Right. The humans out of that house, we're living half outdoors again. So yeah, Mark: Nice. Yes. So. So why don't we go into some specific rituals that we like to do around this time? One of the things that I do when I, you know, seasonally redecorate my, my focus, my altar is I have some ribbons that are from a maypole dance that I did years ago. And there's a, there's a portion of a tree branch. That's. My focus sits up about 10 inches high. And so I drape, I've tied them together at one end and I drape these ribbons over the top of this branch so that it becomes like a little maypole. There. And we also have embroidery hoops that we have glued ribbons, colored, colorful ribbons around the top of, so, and then we cut them off. Three feet long or even longer. So what you end up with is this ring that you can hang from a tree and it's got all these beautiful ribbons hanging down from it that wave in the wind. And we put those in the, in the foliage outside as well,  Yucca: Oh, lovely. Mark: So it just kinds of create some thematic stuff around it.  Yucca: Yeah, we, we put ribbons, we've got a specific tree that we like to put things and, you know, we put little like, you know, Christmas bulbs and things like that in the winter. And then we put some of the ribbons out. And then we go out and untangled them because they get very tangled.  Mark: Of course.  You do Cloudy's do you know.  Yucca: What are Cloudy's Mark: Cloud, is there an Irish tradition? I think, I think, or it may be a Scott's tradition. I'm but I seem to remember it's an Irish tradition and they are cloth that you hang in a tree and particularly with wishes for health,  Yucca: Mm. Mark: and they, you know, various colored clogs and that kind of thing. So it, it sort of creates a prayer tree.  Yucca: Okay. So like a prayer flag tree kind of. Okay. Yeah. We haven't done that, but that's a lovely idea  Mark: Yeah, I like it. I like it too. And then of course there is the classic, which is the maypole dance. We will put a link to a blog post that. I have@atheopagan.org called how does that maypole thing work? And it's, it's step-by-step instructions for how to do a maypole circle. Maples are just so much fun there they're really joyous and dancing around one with a partner with, you know, all these couples with ribbons going in the opposite directions and weaving the ribbons up on the pole.  Yucca: Bumping into each other. Occasionally. Mark: into each other a lot, Especially as you get closer to the pole, cause your ribbons are winding up and they're getting shorter and shorter. And you know, there's always music playing and it's just a very joyful, happy kind of time. And I have many memories of going to, built-in or may Mayday gatherings, you know, people where they're colorful clothing and it. It's just a really, really sweet spring celebration and a very old tradition of course may have existed in, not just in England, but also in other parts of Europe, continental, Europe, Yucca: in the Northern areas, which sometimes they're associated more with solstice,  Mark: Yes. Yes. In Sweden. I know they do a maypole things that summer solstice. And that may just be Because it's, you know, Yucca: Because that is Sprig Mark: that is spring that's when it finally just gets warm enough to get that hooray. We're going outside feeling.  Yucca: and hopefully it'll be on a weekend.  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Well, and if it's not, then you just push to the next weekend. I mean,  Yucca: well, that's what we do. We use it like you were saying at the beginning that, you know, maybe it's not going to be on May 1st week kind of just do it around this time of year when it works for everybody.  Mark: Right, right. Because it would be really disappointing if half the people you wanted to come, couldn't make it. Just because you insisted on doing it on a Wednesday. The other thing to bear in mind when it comes to, you know, being diligent about doing things exactly on the day, That's great, but bear in mind that the actual midpoint between the Equinox and the solstice is actually around May 7th. So. I consider May 1st through May 7th to be the week of may day, the week of Mayday or the week of bell pain. In the same way that Hallows is from Halloween to about November 6th or seventh, depending on the year. So, you know, give yourself a break. Don't. You know, force yourself to do something that creates a lot more insertion and trouble. It's okay to wait till the weekend to do something that, that you want to have a gathering with.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I'm excited because The, the atheopagan community created a new program earlier this year called affinity groups. And those are groups that are, that share geographical affinity or that have some sort of identity or interest connection. So there's an LGBTQ group and there's a crafters group and there's a neuro-diverse. Diverse group and an activist group, but there's also groups that are in different geographical areas. And we have one for Northern California that is now called live Oak circle. And we are meeting in person at one of our houses to do a Mayday gathering on, on May 1st. And I'm really excited about it. I think it's going to be a really Nice. time.  Yucca: That's great.  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: And all, you'll be seeing some of those folks again and another, the next weekend, in fact,  Mark: Yes, one of them, one of them will also be at the century retreat.  Yucca: Yeah. So just a plug for that. I think that the day this comes out is the last day for registration, right?  Mark: That's right.  Yucca: the 25th of April. Yeah, because we need to know who's going to be there so we know how much food to have. Right. Mark: Right. Exactly. So, when you hear this podcast, if you hear it on Monday, the first, if you are still thinking about coming, please at least contact us through the, the contact email on the century re. Page to let us know that you want to come. You can, we'll work out getting your registration completed over the next couple of days, but we need to know that you're coming. And how many are in your party?  Yucca: Yeah. We just need the count of what's going to be there or not. Yeah. Mark: because it's only, it's three weeks away.  Yucca: Yup. Mark: We're in three weeks. We're going to be there.  Yucca: Yup. Mark: And the whole, the whole thing just seems preposterous to me. I mean, I haven't left the state of California in a long time now And  Yucca: either actually the last place I went was Colorado Springs was Colorado Springs or w w for the baby moon before my oldest was born six years ago. We went there cause it was the closest borders  Mark: really?  Yucca: bookish people. Yeah. We were like, Hey, let's go somewhere and spend the night somewhere. Cause we're never going to do this again for like 18 years. And what do we want to do? I want to go to a bookstore. Yeah. I want to go to a bookstore too. So we have lots of little bookstores as well, but we wanted one that was a little bit more like. Like wandering through a big library. So that anyways, yeah. That's the last time I've been out of state. It's been a while. Mark: Yeah. well, you know, there's been COVID and you've had kids and there's, there's all that stuff. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, yeah, it's it's going to happen so soon now I'm really, I got to go to my storage unit and get out of suitcase and all this stuff. So. What else do we have to say about Mayday and oh I we're, we're developing a re a relatively large list of things to put in the in the episode notes, but I do want to put in also, I have a blog post about may celebrations that aren't about sex.  Yucca: Okay. Nice.  Mark: So for people who, you know, are, are a sexual or a romantic, Or  Yucca: Or do you want it to be a family thing and it's not appropriate for the particular people in the family right  Mark: Right. Or they just aren't into it, you know, whatever that is. There's some ideas there for things that you can do to celebrate this time of year. So I want to  Yucca: That's a great, yeah, because it really doesn't. I mean, I like the sex part, but it doesn't have to be about that.  Mark: That's Right.  Yucca: There's plenty of, of reawakening and all of that stuff that doesn't have to doesn't have to be it.  Mark: Absolutely. And as always, we're working to be as inclusive as we possibly can. This non theist pagan science-based paganism path is something that really is open to everyone and not just in a tolerance sense, but in a true welcoming sense. We want you to have a practice. Really works for you, you know, that feels moving and meaningful and gives you a sense of place in the world and a sense of purpose in living. So that's, that's the thing. So what else do we have  Yucca: You know, I think I'm just feeling happy about it being spring.  Mark: Me too.  Yucca: that's what I have to say. Spring awakening being outside color the bugs coming back, got all kinds of interesting things out. That's that's what's going on for us. So. Mark: Yep. That's what's happening here too. And we, we really love it. So, I got to get out on a trail. I haven't actually gone hiking for quite a while and I really want to do that. So I've got to, got to get myself going soon.  Yucca: Good time for that. Mark: It is so happy spring everyone or summer, if that's the way you count it, which we didn't really talk about. But many people consider the cross quarter holidays to be the beginnings of the seasons instead of the solstices and equinoxes. Which is why summer solstice is called midnight. Often and the winter solstice is called mid-winter. But it just depends on how you count it. Calendars are arbitrary.  Yucca: they are. Yeah. I mean, for where I am, the seasons are not equal. Winter and summer are really long and we have like a few weeks of spring and a few weeks of fall. And then. You know, we basically have winter and summer. I mean, there's nuances, but really just jumps right in. Yes, June is not spring for us. For some people, June a spring, but June is like not Judas 90 degrees. So yeah. Well, anyways, as we were saying, just happy spring or happy summer, everyone. And for those of you, cause we do see that there are quite a few of you listening in the Southern hemisphere. So the other way around, happy bottom for you. Mark: Yes, and I'm happy Hallows or solemn, meaningful Hallows, and be sure to look in the in the podcast archives for our has episodes, because you can certainly use all of that stuff for your celebration here in may as well.  Yucca: Great. And is there a Southern hemisphere affinity group? Mark: There is yes, it's small right now, but there is a Southern hemisphere affinity group.  Yucca: Yeah. So definitely check that out if Mark: Yep. if you're interested in joining an affinity group, you can. go to the atheopagan society website, which is the AP society.org, the AP society.org forward slash community. And that will take you to the page that lists all of the affinity groups.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Okay. Well, thank you so much, Yucca. It's been a pleasure as always.  Yucca: Thank you, mark.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E12 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: Welcome back to The Wonder: Science-based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts.  Yucca: And I'm Yucca.  Mark: And today we are going to talk about ritual etiquette and festival etiquette. One of the things about paganism is that we tend to gather for rituals in groups and then also. Most of our community forming is because we're so sparsely distributed and there are so few of us in most places, our gatherings tend to be festivals where people travel in order to congregate, and we have workshops and rituals and socializing and all that good kind of stuff. So we wanted to talk about safety in all of those contexts and and respectfulness. And just kind of give some thoughts and guidelines about how best to manage various different kinds of concerns and considerations during rituals, and then also during festivals.  Yucca: Right? And that's both from the perspective of a participant and as an organizer, we'll kind of be flowing back and forth between both of those. Since those are roles. We both play, right?  Mark: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, some of this. In the next few weeks, we're going to be going to the Sentry retreat in Colorado. And we're starting to think about festivals and the weather is getting warm and it's getting to be festival season. And it appears that COVID has kind of waned. Yucca: Yeah. So hopefully this will come back and to being a more regular thing that we haven't been able to do for the past few years. Right. Right. Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. But first, why don't we just talk about group rituals? We, we were talking before we started recording and when it comes to solo rituals, you know, if you offend yourself, that's your business and  Yucca: maybe a good thing is we were saying yes, probably there probably there's some progress happening there. Yeah. Yes,  Mark: exactly. So we're not really gonna talk about solo rituals because you know, your etiquette is your own and If you, if you provoke yourself in some way, then you're probably growing. So that's a good thing. But when it comes to group rituals there, there is a lot to say, there are a lot of things that can go wrong in group rituals. And there are ways that people contribute can contribute to things going wrong, or can contribute to things going with. So, let's, let's talk about some of those.  Yucca: Great. And also starting by saying that. These rituals are going to be happening within a larger cultural context as well. And what may be normal for mark? And my experiences might be very different if you are in. A different place with a different cultural base than what we're going to be talking about. So there's that first step of just being aware of, you know, what's, what's the background that people are coming from and what's, what are some of those basic cultural assumptions that, that are coming in? Mark: Right. For example people who are Initiated Gardnerian witches, you know, traditional, British witchcraft folks. They, if they're, if they're really sticking to what Gerald Gardner stipulated, then they're meeting sky clad or unclothed. That's not for everybody. And well, we'll, we'll talk about. I mean, a lot of what we're talking about here has to do with respectfulness and consent versus coercion. So w Yucca and I, for example, would never announce a ritual where it was said that it was expected that everybody show up with no clothes on, right. Because that's not what you do. What you do is ask people if they would be comfortable or, or instead say, wear whatever you're comfortable in. Yucca: So, and just, just going back a little bit where I was coming from with that is for instance the, what people's expectations on personal spaces and things like that vary from culture to culture. So just to make some real broad generalizations here, if you're in a Mediterranean country, there's probably. Your personal space boundaries are going to be not as big as somebody from Northern Europe, right? There's a lot more touching. There's a lot more. And I'm sure this has changed a lot over the last few years, but, but greetings with kisses on the face and things like that, where you're unlikely to get someone from Norway to be comfortable with that just on a basic cultural. Level. So that's what I was saying about the starting with, and then, like you were saying, mark, within paganism, there are going to be different traditions with different expectations.  Mark: Right? Right. And, and culture is of course a function of who's there. Right. Yeah. So if you are having a pagan festival in Wisconsin, then the people that are there are likely to be mostly from the Northern Midwest, and they're going to have a particular way of interacting with one another. That may be different than people in the south or in California.  Yucca: Right. And even differences, you know, between, if you're thinking California and Northern and Southern California. Oh, yes. To me, is someone from outside the state, it seems like different places, very different, culturally different,  Mark: well, I mean, Los Angeles is almost 400 miles away from me. California is a big place. I have to drive for nine hours to get to Los Angeles. So it's. Yeah, it's a, it's a bunch of different places actually like all really large states. Yeah. So getting back to our, to our subject what are some of the things that, that need to be addressed? When introducing or providing the invitation to a ritual. And what are some of the things that can arise during the ritual that you want to have some preparation for?  Yucca: Right. Well, I mean, one of the first things to think about is the. It's going to be age. Right. And is your ritual going to be dealing with adult themes in which it really would not be appropriate to have young children around? If not, if it's something that could have children around, how's that going to be handled? You know, how is there going to be a space created for them or letting people know the expectations? Because if, if you are going to do the style where, where the little kids can kind of just run around and do whatever little kids do, then, then people need to know that coming in because there's often people who aren't used to kids might be a little bit flustered by. By the wildness. There's a reason we call them kids. Kids is actually the word for a baby goat, not the word for a baby human. We, and we call them that because if you've ever been around goats and they are hyper creatures that are going to jump on everything and taste everything. So, so that's something to, to think about and be really clear with the communication, if you are organizer. And if you are a family, then this is probably already on your mind, but thinking of. You know, what is, how welcome is this? What is the expectations for, for the, the multi-age. Yes, I have a  Mark: ritual. Right, right. And I mean, it is perfectly legitimate for you to say, you know, 18 and over please, or, you know, 14 and over, you know, whatever, whatever it is. But that said, I mean, My personal prejudice is to try to be as inclusive of people, of all ages as possible. I just feel like that's more community building. And the only exception that I would make to that is if there are explicitly sexual themes in, in the actual ritual that it's inappropriate to expose young children to. Yucca: Right. So the particular holiday that we're coming up on right now is one in which there might be. Some sort of, you know, strong sexual themes in that, that you definitely want to just be aware of, you know, who's, who's going to be there,  Mark: right? Yeah. And if it isn't appropriate for kids to be in that ritual, then having some other activity supervised by one or more adults during that ritual is a really great idea because then families can still participate. They just don't it just that the kids. In the ritual circle at the time that they're doing that. So that's a way that we can be respectful and considerate of families that have children while still being able to do the thing we want to do. Right.  Yucca: And, and if they, and if it is something in which the children are. I'm invited to be participating in. It's also really important to be able to let the caregivers be able to take them out. If that's what they need right there, it needs, there needs to be the, the understanding that. The caregiver's going to go. Okay. Okay. You're not here. You're not in the Headspace. You're you're pulling on everybody's beards or whatever it is. We're going to move along and go over and hang out by this tree and have it be that. There is a physical way for them to do that. And then it's also socially acceptable and that people aren't going to be weird about  Mark: it. Right. And that brings us to another ritual etiquette topic, which is the understanding of what the ritual container is and how it should be dealt with how it should, how it should be managed. I've been in some circles where. You know, it was very formal and the idea was, you know, if you must leave for some reason and it has to be really imperative, then you have to do this sort of unzipping motion  Yucca: like this. Cutting. Yeah. Cutting it, sealing it up. Yeah. And that's, I've been in ones too, where people have been, that's been really, really important and it's, you know, a very big deal. You know, we've created this space. Don't be crossing over any lines, especially if something was physically drawn on the ground right now. And that, and that's something to be aware of. If you're coming into the pagan community, maybe you're coming from like the atheist side and you're coming in and you might be going to a pagan ritual. Isn't specifically atheopagan, but it's rooted in another tradition, just, you know, maybe be aware, kind of ask some questions about that and see where people are at with that, because that could be something people take very, very seriously.  Mark: Right. Right. And I mean, obviously in the middle of a ritual, isn't really a great time to be asking those questions. So one thing to be doing is just observing what other people's behavior. Yeah. That said forcing you to stay in a, in a ritual circle when you really need to go to the bathroom or something that's abusive. Yeah. You should always feel that you have the personal autonomy to leave and attend to your needs, whatever they are at any  Yucca: time and whether that's a physical need, right. Like you really gotta use the bathroom. Or you are just really uncomfortable with what's happening. You don't have to be there and it's, and it's not okay for somebody to force you to be. Right.  Mark: Right. Participation in ritual is, is a consensual act. It's something that we agreed to do with one another for our mutual benefit and edification. And that means that you can withdraw that consent at any time. And we'll be talking about consent more as we get later in the podcast  Yucca: right now do be respectful about it. If it's uncomfortable to you, you know, don't, you know, necessarily throw your hands up and start cussing at everybody unless something really warranted that. Right. But for the most part, just, you know, just. And, you know, just kind of bow out. Right. And what I mean by that is hopefully nothing like this would happen, but you know, somebody starts groping you or something like that, then, you know, then that didn't make a fuss. But if it's just that you you're uncomfortable, you know, just kind of read, read the circle, let's say, say yes. Yeah. Mark: It is appropriate. If there's, if something is happening that you think is unsafe. That's another time when it's appropriate to say you know, put your hand up and step forward and say I hate to be a wet blanket here, but this feels really unsafe to me. And I don't think it's what we should be doing. I've seen that a couple of times and I felt like it was appropriate in both cases. And, you know, one of them was just, you know, people jumping over the bonfire at Mayday and, you know, people with trailing gauzy, fairy clothing, and, you know, they were trying real hard to light themselves on fire. And it was just like, okay, that's enough for this. This has to stop.  Yucca: Right. I'm glad you gave an example. Cause I was wondering about that as what would be the, what would be the things happening in our rituals that we might need to. Slow down about,  Mark: well, I mean, and I haven't seen this, but understanding how uh, loose boundaries can be in the pagan community, you know, it could be like, okay, the next instruction for, you know, casting the circle is we're going to count off ones and twos and ones and twos turned to face one another and kiss. No, it's not okay. That's not okay at all. Right. It might've sounded really great when somebody was designing a ritual because it sounded like a really sweet thing, but it doesn't include the human factor of consent.  Yucca: Right. Or maybe it worked would work with. Group that you're with, but now this is a larger ritual with other people in. Yeah. Right. And also it might be things to like, you know, grab the other person's waist that might seem. At first, like maybe that's okay. But that might be something not for a lot of people. People might, that might be, you know, too personal, too intimate. Yes. So, and this is coming again from the organizer perspective of designing the ritual, but then as the participant then you also have the right to go that I'm not okay with somebody touching me that. Mark: And it's important as an organizer to let people know. I mean, it it's a terrible thing, but we learned in experiments like the Milgrim prison experiment, we learned that people will go along with what everybody else is doing to an extent that is really, that can be terrifying. Yeah. It is very important as an organizer that you communicate upfront, we're going to be doing this and this, if you don't consent to doing. Here's your alternative. You can step back, take one step backwards. You're still in the circle, but you're not participating in that activity. Right. Or whatever it is, you know what, but you, you're the decision maker. You decide whether or not you consent to what we're going to do here. And here's, here's your, your option. If you don't want to do that. You know what that  Yucca: reminds me of is those exercise videos. Where like they give the differ, there's the main coach, like doing the exercise and they're like, okay, well here's the variation. Okay. Watch Jenny over here. If you need the, the modified pushups or, or something like that. That's what that makes me think of. Right. So that everybody can be doing it even if, even if they can't be doing one of the other things. So. Okay. Well, what else do we have?  Mark: Well, there are other things that organizers can also make clear to ritual participants. And this is always a bit of a juggling act because to some degree it can be very powerful and effective to have things that happen during a, which will be a surprise because it takes you into a novel experience that. You don't have a map in your mind about where it's going to go, but you always need to be cognizant that if you have expectations of how people are going to behave in the ritual, you need to spell those out for people. So for example, many Neo pagans operate in a clockwise direction. In a circle. If they, if they move around the circle, they do so in a clockwise direction and there are explanations for why that should be. So, but that's beside the point. If you expect people to move in a clockwise direction around the circle, spell that out for people. When you, when you brief them before the ritual about what you're going to do. Because. You may have someone there who's coming from the atheist community and doesn't have any idea about day sill and widdershins sure. Yucca: And maybe use your hand to show which direction you mean too, because on that particular one, Saying clockwise and counterclockwise or, or widdershins or whatever, whatever can be kind of confusing to people. It might just help to, you know, do some physical movement  Mark: too. Right, right. Yes. We're going to move to the left. So all of these are important pieces and. As event organizers. And as you can see, a lot of this, some of this is around just traditional protocols, right? We, we usually move in a particular direction. We usually cast a circle in a particular way of someone needs to leave. We usually do that leaving in a particular way, but a lot of what we're talking about here in terms of ritual etiquette and festival etiquette boils down to the concept of consent.  Yucca: And consent.  Mark: Yes, yes. To paying attention and consent. And that's really an important topic for us to talk about in relation to the pagan community, because we have had many incidences of interactions which have not been consensual up to and including assaults. At festivals over the course of the 50 years or so that the Neo pagan community has existed at least in north America. The, you can search online for examples of that. There's been a lot of talk about it. My feeling, my very strong belief is. Consent and conduct standards need to be spelled out in writing to every participant in an event. Right. And, you know, they need to be given a copy. Yeah. Right, right. And they need to sign when they sign a liability waiver that needs to include, you know, I've read the, the conduct standards and I agree to them because Back in the battled sixties and seventies there was so little understanding of the nuances of what it means to be sex positive. Yucca: Yeah. People confused it for just. Yeah, just being  Mark: right. And if you were resistant to any of that, then you could be accused of being approved or yes. And a lot of people got hurt. A lot of people had experiences that they did not want to have. And a lot of people got hurt. And then of course it was mostly women. Yeah. So. When we talk about consent, let's, let's kind of spell out some about what we mean about consent. Consent is something which has to be affirmatively presented. A lack of know is not, is not consent.  Yucca: And if somebody can't say the yes, if they cannot communicate right then that isn't, you don't have consent. Mark: Right. Right. W whatever means that person uses to communicate whether it's sign language or  Yucca: right. Yeah. It doesn't necessarily have to be verbal, but if, but if it's somebody who, you know, if they're not  Mark: if someone is falling down drunk, for example, in slurring their speech, it's obvious that they're not in a position to make right decision to be to be consenting. Um Hmm. Consent to one action does not imply consumption consent to other actions. Consent to an action at one time does not mean I now consent to that action forever going forward.  Yucca: Right. People can change their mind to think that they were comfortable with something and realize that. No, you know, I'm not, this is not working anymore. Yes, yes. Yeah.  Mark: And it's just really important to check in with people about, you know, is this okay? Would it be okay if and that is. It's something that some people within the pagan community have really bristled at, particularly people that come out of that late sixties, early seventies counter-culture because the free for all that was mostly enjoyed by men mostly. I mean, and I've heard from women who, you know, also enjoyed the free for all. So it's not exclusively men, but it was mostly man. They, they miss that sense of boundaryless Liberty, right? We don't live in a world where that is appropriate or possible. And that is for all kinds of reasons. It's for health reasons, it's for mental health reasons. It's for simple respect reasons of one another. And if that means that the. The, the sexy party atmosphere of pagan festivals is reduced somewhat because there is this ongoing negotiation process between prospective partners. Then that's what it means. And. Sorry for your loss, but you  Yucca: lost there. You can find somebody who's into that right there into that. Great. Awesome. But you know, that's not, but the people have gotta be into that. Right. And we're talking a lot about this in terms of sexual consent, but it's not just about sexual acts. It's also. Just any physical holding hands is anything that's about that person's body that, about that person, right? You know, this is something that's not quite the same, but it drives me crazy when people, you know, insist that children give them hugs or they, they tickle them. And the kid says no, and they keep tickling them. And it's like, no, that's no. That they're not consenting to it,  Mark: right. That's abuse. Yeah. You may not think it's abuse, but it's abuse. And then lots of people have memories of that uncle who wouldn't stop tickling them. Right. That are not pleasant memories. Yeah.  Yucca: And another thing with the tickling is that will we teach kids that their, that their nose don't mean? No. Right. And so sometimes there are kids who will you tickle them and they like to be tickled and this, and they go, no, no, no, because that's what they've been taught to say, but they don't really mean the no, but now are no, doesn't have it. Doesn't have the same power. So it's really important that no is no. Right, right. And it, and this takes work, but it doesn't have to be perfect. Like, you're not a terrible person, a few. If the kid doesn't want to be tickled. Right. Right. If the, if somebody doesn't want to, isn't comfortable holding hands with you and in the ritual, like it's not, it's usually not about you. It's about them, right? It's like there, maybe it is. But most of the time it's about them and their comfort. And you know, if you're insisting on it and pushing your feelings on top of theirs, I mean, you know, that's, that's not safe,  Mark: it's not good. It's it's abusive. And, or, or at the least intrusive in a way that's that pushes beyond people's the boundaries that people have a reasonable right. To expect as sovereign individuals. Right. So this, I mean, Can feel kind of funny when you first start doing it. Right. Because you know, there's this elaborate protocol, you know? Hi, I'm I noticed you were looking at me around the bonfire and I think you're really attractive. Would you like to spend some time with me? Yes. Well, what would you like to do. And there's this negotiation function that, that enters into the conversation that made seem sort of awkward, but I'll tell you I'm seeing what I'm seeing from young people in their teens and twenties is that you can effortlessly incorporate this stuff. If it's what you're accustomed to doing in the same way that you, you know, announce your pronouns. It's.  Yucca: Yeah, right. Where we're totally used to doing other things, the other cultural things that just become something that is just part of the culture.  Mark: Right. Right. And so this is a way of our culture becoming more respectful and more safe. And  Yucca: and, and, and like anything, this is not about beating ourselves. Because when we're making a conscious effort to change from, from what we're used to, what we're ingrained to the culture, the behaviors that we have grown up with these are habits. These are strong things that are hard to break. And when you slip up it's doesn't mean that your, a bad person or your, an abuser or abusive and all that, the behavior. Okay, but that's, but you acknowledge that and you know, you might need to apologize if you can. Right. If that's, if that's going to be welcome, if that's not, maybe that's worse. Right. Maybe the person just needs to not engage with you alone, right? Yeah. Because it's not about you, it's about them. Right. Right. And just to move on and try and do that. The next time without making it, you know, we don't need to be whipping ourselves here. Right.  Mark: Right. And in many cases, Rejection is also not about you. It's very, very hard to feel this. It's very hard to understand someone, you know, rejecting your advance as not being about you. And of course it has some relation to you, but who knows what's going on with the other person? You know, you, you have no idea what's going on in their head and you know, it, maybe it could be anybody that they're not interested in.  Yucca: And even if, you know, even if there would be people that they'd be interested in your, not it, that's not a reflection on your value. No. Right. And so it probably wouldn't have been a great situation anyways, if they weren't into, I mean, would you really want that somebody who wasn't into you. Obligated to do something with you. Cause like, I dunno to me that would feel worse. Right. Find out later that like, oh, they just fell obligated. They weren't. Yeah,  Mark: yeah, yeah. That's no good. So, so what other protocol things re etiquette things, can we think of about festivals?  Yucca: I mean, just again, really kind of reading the room on that, you know, what, what is, what's the Acceptibility in terms of the, the level of the type of dress code or the use of particular substances or not like, that's something you're going to want to check before, but also. You know, if nobody else is doing it and you're new to this situation, you might want to kind of check like, Hey, is it okay to be drinking here? Or is it okay to be doing whatever, you know, a lot of states it's legal, recreational marijuana is legal now. Like, is that okay? Is that not, you know, are there miners here? Just kind of that basic, you know, Decent person awareness stuff. I think we just have to be, you know, hyper aware of that when we're in group situations and especially new situations,  Mark: right. Understanding the context is so important. If you're coming into a new situation with a community of people that you haven't met with before, then there may be. Things that are kind of under the surface that you're not aware of. And it, it helps to ask questions and find out the answers to them. And this brings me to my pet peeve, which is the mess that some pagans can make. Yes, I am adamant about cleaning up after yourself. I mean, By any reasonable measure of campsite or a retreat center or any gathering place where a festival takes place, that's occupied by pagans for several days should be spotless when it's done, because we're about the earth. We're not about clusters of beer bottles left in the, in the grass and cigarette butts and rappers, rappers, and you know, all that kind of stuff. It's, it's just, that's not. The way we ought to be rolling. And I, I really have a bee in my bonnet about this I'm I'm I'm careful about it myself. And I really think, you know, for God's sake, bring a, bring a reusable grocery bag. Tuck stuff into it and take it back to your campsite when you're, when you go to bed. It's not hard to do.  Yucca: I was at an a said phone, which is like the national Welsh gathering in Wales with poetry and the bards and everything is amazing. And was camping out there in the big field. And I really liked what they did is you couldn't check out until after they handed it. Trash bag and he had to go fill it up before you were allowed to check out. So I think we should not get to that point in the first place, but I liked that that nobody's going until this campsite, because, you know, there were hundreds of tents and, and, you know, not again to make too many generalizations, but folks in Wales, like. Drink and party and do all that. And so there were lots, lots of bottles to pick up. He couldn't go without, without bringing the bottles, even if you weren't the one who drank it. But no, I think that in the first place be mindful about that. Yeah. Right. Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. And, and if you somehow doubt that it's possible to, to leave no trace in the way that I described, think of burning, man, that that is their ethos. You come, you have an amazing time for a week. There's this gigantic party. And then you clean up the area where you've been living until there is not one sequin on the ground, not one, you know, leftover tent, peg or nail or anything until it's the, the section of the Playa where you camped is absolutely bare. And then you can leave. So that's an important one to me. And I think that our community will benefit in terms of its reputation by conducting itself in that way. I also think there are some folks in our community who could really benefit by developing those habits because they don't have them now. Right. And, you know, I understand, you know, if you've had three beers, it can be a little bit harder to be mindful about or five beers or whatever it is, you know, it can be a little. Mindful about, and, you know, you're having fun. You're dancing around the fire. You're, you know, you're interacting with people. It can be easy to forget about the stuff that you left on the ground, but it's so important to, you know, to recapture that stuff and make sure it doesn't end up off into the environment. Right.  Yucca: Or, you know, I think that, that, I hope we'll see what happens now as we're moving. Into a post. COVID not the cope it's gone, but in terms of COVID having happened about people's awareness about sharing drinks and foods and bottles and things, I would hope that that would help people to be a little bit more aware of those personal items that are. Mark: Yes. Yes. We will have an advantage at century retreat because the retreat center has a rule about no glass containers outside only, only within the buildings or the yurts. So, people will have to bring a tankard or a flagging. Or a  Yucca: coffee mug or whichever is more invested in keeping track of  Mark: exactly. And you only have one of them, so it's not like, you know, disposable bottles where you keep opening them. It's just a lot, a lot more efficient and. And easier  Yucca: to tell is when it's yours and not what's that yours was that one mind did I put my down over there? Oh, they have the same amount in them. Yeah. Yeah. So whatever the, whatever the thing is. Right. So,  Mark: yeah. So. Those are the things that I can think of off hand that I think people should be aware of when going to a pagan festival. I want to say, if you haven't been to a pagan festival before, don't let this whole conversation about stuff scare you off. You can have a wonderful experience at these kinds of gatherings need meet really interesting, really amazing. Sometimes very strange and interesting people  Yucca: to stay  Mark: creative and unusual and just, you know, some of the best people in the world. I mean, The reason that I ended up in the pagan community back in my twenties, you know, many years ago is because the people were just delightful. And I continue to find people in this community to be delightful, you know, even all these years later, So, you know, given an opportunity to go to some kind of regional event or even a big one, like, pig and spirit gathering or rites of spring or a gathering it's circle, farm, really, you know, check it out, see, see what it's like. Yeah. I'm getting really excited about century Richmond.  Yucca: Me too. It's yeah, I just can't believe house. How soon  Mark: it's  Yucca: just really right around the corner. I mean, it's spring now and it's just, and it's going to be for it's it's in the Rockies. It's just a lovely time of year and the Rockies and, oh,  Mark: What is it? Six weeks from today will be. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Six weeks from yesterday, we'll be broadcasting during the lunch hour. We'll do a live podcast during the lunch hour from century retreat and we'll buttonhole people and interview them about their experience and talk about what's been  Yucca: going on. Yeah. Which I'm sure we will have quite a bit to say on that. And we've got some fun, fun episodes coming up between now and. Yeah, we have a plan.  Mark: We do. We have a plan. We've got what four episodes mapped  Yucca: out. I think so. Yes. We always are looking for episode ideas, things that you, as the listener would like to hear more about. So please let us know if you have something that even if it's something we've talked about before, we can always revisit, or if it's something that we haven't talked about, do you want to let us know? Yeah, for sure. And that's mark, what's that email address?  Mark: Oh, that is thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. So it's the wonder podcast, all one word Q s@gmail.com. And we look forward to your comments and your suggestions. We always love getting emails from folks, so thank you for a great conversation. And What's the name, watching the calendar and watching those days countdown. That's right. All right, we'll see you next week. Thanks.

What's up witches and welcome to the astrological new year! For this Aries New Moon, our hosts tackle Power of the Witch, by Laurie Cabot, prolific and famous Official Witch of Salem. This book gets rave reviews and sparks some interesting conversations about gender and child-rearing, as well as our regularly scheduled segment, Gemini wants to fistfight Gerald Gardner! 

Welcome to Pub Chat!These episodes are for us to have a more free-form way to discuss listener questions, shorter subjects, as well as magical happenings and musings.Our question of the week is on astral projection. We briefly talk about what astral projection (AKA astral travel) is, how it's done, and how widespread it is. It's reportedly even been researched for decades by various governments to give an advantage over other countries! In Story Time, we cover Wicca Tiger King part three: Gerald Gardner, the father of Wicca. There's a lot to unpack about his backstory, but we focus on how he ensured that Wicca wouldn't fade away. This week, we watched King Arthur: Legend of the Sword (2017). We briefly discuss the magic of this movie in Magic and Media, and chit chat about a variety of other things.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E5 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts, Yucca.  Mark: And I'm the other one, Mark.  Yucca: And today we're talking about imagination, fantasy and Richard. Mark: Right?  Yucca: And we thought this was a, a lovely time to talk about it because for many people we're just coming out of are still really in a season of that, that we associate with new beginnings, with planning, with with planting those seeds for the, for the year to come. Mark: Right. Because in many places like yours, Yucca the ground is frozen and there's not a whole lot that you can be doing towards making something new, grow for the rest for the coming year, other than to think about it and imagine the future.  Yucca: And play on it and. Mark: And plan, you know, based on your imagined picture of that future, then you can plan the steps to get there. Right. And that is really the human special trick of all of all. I mean, we talk about our thumbs and they're great. Of all the things that humans are particularly capable of and adept at it's our ability to envision the imagined. And that includes the imagined future. and. what that means is that we have become creatures who are built around storytelling. There was an anthropologist, I don't remember his name, who, who actually called us homo something. I don't remember what it was, which meant the storytelling ape. Yeah.  Yucca: Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. 'cause that's what we do. Whatever, whatever culture you look at, wherever in the world, we're all telling stories. And we start that at a very, very young age, even before we're, we've really figured out the grammar of our mother language. We're telling stories we're playing. And that's, you know, when you look at at mammals mammals, And they play at whatever it is that they need to learn to succeed and survive as an adult. So you look at the low line Cubs and they're wrestling with each other and chasing each other and grabbing each other's tails. Well, humans, yeah, we run around and rough and tumble, but we play make-believe. From very, very early on, you know, we're picking up the sock and, you know, the feather and their characters in our minds, and they have incredible stories and personalities and interactions and, and all of that. And, and so that's what we really do. And that's, that's what that's part of what makes us successful. As a species and as individuals in our species is our ability to tell those stories, imagine, and to share those stories. Mark: Yes, exactly. And what this tells us of course is because this is happening at such an early age, is that this really is baked into us. This is, you know, something that comes in at a very low level of our development. And it's essential to us, you know, our ability to understand the idea of causality of action and consequence is, you know, and that things happen along a timeline, right? That there are, there are actors and those actors do things and those things have consequences. And so there's a result. And that that's the order that things happen. All of those are things that we have to learn, but we get them really early. And one of the things about our capacity for imagination is that our brains are not really built to distinguish the imagined from the. And this is the great paradox with memory, of course, because memories get edited all the time. You know, they, they, every time we retell a story to ourselves things get a little fuzzy around the edges and we just touch them up.  Yucca: Just fill that in.  Mark: Yeah. Just, you know, because we want the memory to be complete. It is not a volitional activity. There's nothing wrong with it. It's not about being dishonest. It's the way our brains work.  Yucca: Yeah. And it's, it's not really a conscious thing that we're doing. That's it's not like you're choosing, usually you're usually not choosing to modify that memory, but. And you're just filling in the details then  Mark: Right, right.  Yucca: it's like with our vision, you, you can actually see this. If you take your finger out, put it all the way to the edge of your vision, your peripheral vision, and slowly move your finger into the, in the front of your vision. You're going to find that you've got some blind spots. But we don't notice those blind spots. Our brain just fills it in for us, unless you're really, really looking for that blind spot. Mark: Right. Yeah. And that of course is caused by the place where the optic nerve connects with the retina. It doesn't have any light sensing cells over it. There's an actual hole in our vision, in our brains. Well, they do two things they fill in that hole to start with. And then they flip the whole thing upside down because our eyes actually project the lens in our eyes projects, an upside down image onto the retina at the back of the eye.  Yucca: Right. Just like a telescope, right? It works the same way. Is there a refractor? Yeah. Mark: Yeah. So. You know, our brains are doing a lot of stuff to massage our experience. Right. And this is something that we talk about a lot in non theists, paganism in terms of understanding supposedly supernatural experiences. Right. Because in every case with every experience we have, there is the, the perception. And then there's the story we developed to explain the perception  Yucca: Right. Mark: and the story. We actually have some choices about the perception. Our brain just does what it does and frequently it's trying to fill in very poor data. So we hear things that. That sound didn't actually come into our ears to create, or we see things that aren't created. My favorite example, I've used this before is when you're driving on the highway and there's a sign for an exit far, far down the road, and you could read it barely. You can see, you know, what road it is that that is the exit for, and as you get about halfway closer, those letters all rearrange themselves into what it actually said. Because your brain was trying to make sense out of the sign and it gave you one determination and the truth is it was something else.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So the, our, our minds are incredibly powerful in how they can develop imagination in order to fill in the holes of what we perceive.  Yucca: Right. Another example is when you, somebody says something to you and you didn't really quite catch it and you hear something that's completely different than what they said. And you know, you have to say, wait, what did you say? Because what I heard.  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: Definitely was not what you said, and then they say it again and he couldn't. Oh, then it makes sense. Right. But we just fill it in. We hear something that's not really there.  Mark: Right. And that, in my opinion is where a lot of experiences of the supernatural come from. It's a. Femoral data that the brain fills in, and then it develops a story that this isn't a supernatural experience. Other people have different opinions about that, but it seems to me given what we know about the brain and about the universe, it's a lot more likely than the supernatural explanations that are often presented by people.  Yucca: Okay. That's what I suspect as well. Yeah.  Mark: So  Yucca: this is, oh.  Mark: Oh, go ahead.  Yucca: I was going to say, this is a little bit about the, so some of the why's we have this powerful imagination. But once we, we know and acknowledge that about ourselves, we can do so much with it and it can be a really empowering and just fun and delightful thing. Mark: Right. Which is why we love to read fiction. It's why we love to watch movies and television presentations and all  Yucca: Play games and yeah. Mark: yeah, we love our stories and we, we love, you know, Waiting to find out what happens at the end because we know that something will happen at the end and we're, we're, we're interested in what that is. So yes, playing with our imaginations become something that we do from a very, very early age. And the only reason. The only real bucket that we have in our minds that helps us to see what is likely not likely to be a fantasy rather than an a reality is that category of things that we see as happening in the future,  Yucca: Hm. Mark: because we know we're not there yet. We know that we can't see the future. Right. Most of us know that we can't see the future. So, There are those imagined outcomes. And then we can plan for those or plan against them depending on what we're imagining.  Yucca: Although, I'm just going to say, when you're driving on the road, And you see something on the side of the road and you don't want to hit it. Don't keep focusing on it because you will drive into it.  Mark: yes.  Yucca: So focus on what he, where you want to go instead of where you don't. And with my experience, you can apply that to planning as well. Instead of trying to plan against something it's often much more effective to plan towards something. Mark: Yes. Yes. When I was first learning to drive the guy who was teaching me said, okay, now look where you want to go and go there.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: That was, it was very simple instruction and it taught me to steer.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Look where you want to go and go there.  Yucca: Yep.  Do not look at the pedestrian to not look at the pedestrian. Yes. Mark: Yeah. So we have this powerful imagination and it's so powerful that it can blur the distinction between what our real experiences are, which as we've said, can be heavily massaged and, and changed by our brains. Right.  Yucca: And just filling in that lack of lack of data. Mark: even, even that is somewhat questionable, which is why the scientific method is so powerful because it works to take that subjectivity out of our conclusions about what's real. And then we have the imagined experiences and those can be super vivid and wonderful. And that's why we, once again, like movies and, you know, reading and all that great kind of stuff. We can use this and we're going to talk about this later on. We can use this in our pig and practice in our ritual practice because a ritual can be informed by a story. Right. I'm going to do this and that symbolizes this and I'm going to do that. And it symbolizes that, and then this transformation will take place and it will lead to this result at the end. And either I will be changed or the world will be changed depending on what you believe. And. You can even create rituals that are built around mythological stories, right. I'm going to do the fool's journey I'm going to do per Stephanie's descent or, or a non as descent. Right. And I've, I've been to some rituals that are like that and they can be incredibly powerful. The problem that we get into is where I talked about how we can blur the imagined and the real. Yucca: Right. Mark: And that can lead to lots of problems. I mean, I believe that that's the fundamental issue with theism.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: It involves the, the blurring of reality with imagination in a way that draws erroneous conclusions. That's what I think.  Yucca: Yeah, well, and there's so many different directions to go with this, but one of the places where it can be really harmful as we start to create these narratives about groups, about my group and that group, and you know, everything there. You know, your escape group, scapegoat group where, you know, where you can start demonizing people just through the stories and imagination, you come up with whatever the group is, right? It's the other political party, or it's the, you know, whatever religion or the opposite of your particular food dogma group or that, you know, and you start to, to. Blur between, you know, what, what maybe is real. And what's kind of imagined and, and what may have some seeds of truth that have been been exaggerated. And, and and it's hard for us to know. To peel that back and try and distinguish between them, especially when we start wrapping our own identity and our stories about ourselves and our own worth and to all of that. Mark: right, exactly. So, and that brings us to the wonderful term confirmation bias. Because all of us have a prejudice in favor of our own stories. We, whether they're imaginary or whether they're based in some pretty solid factual information, we still, as we look out into the world, we will look for pieces of data that will reinforce what we already want to believe. And that is. Another piece of fee ism. I believe once you've decided that you're an atheist and you have this idea, you know, I'm a Christian, I'm a Muslim, I'm a, I'm a follower of Zeus. Then you, you start filtering your experience of the world in order to be consistent with what that tells you with what that. is supposed to look like. Right. And it's very tricky. It's subtle stuff because. So much of what happens with our sensorium happens underneath the surface. It's the processing that the mind does And, then shows you something on the screen. Yucca: Right. Mark: Very challenging.  Yucca: and we need to be really clear that this is, this is a human thing, right? This is something that we all do, and we can become more aware of. And be able to make choices about it, but it's, it's completely natural. This is just part of how we work, how we're wired. Mark: Right, right. This, this. What's this concretion of different evolved systems. That is our brain. You know, it wasn't engineered from the bottom up. It's a, it's a series of evolutionary steps that are all glommed onto one another. And this is part of the result is that, you know, we, we are really not very good at subjective. As a single individual person detecting what's likely to be true and what's likely not to be true. We teach ourselves critical thinking in order to try to do a better job of that. But the best system that we've found so far for determining what really is likely to be true is the scientific method with peer review and Ockham's razor Yucca: Yeah. Mark: and oh, go ahead.  Yucca: I was gonna say, I'm, you know, I'm not someone who thinks that we really should be dictating, you know, what peoples, what classes people should take. But you know, if I had one that I could say everybody has to take it would be logic, right? I think that it would make sense. It would help people so much. As long as the. You know, it was a good instructor and understood it just to be aware of the different kinds of fallacies there are. And how do you actually think through, and, and challenge your own beliefs and also how to argue, how to argue on a position that's not yours.  Mark: yeah. Yes. Well, that's why the, the first atheopagan principle is skepticism and critical thinking.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: It's, you know, you start from there that, that, that will help you to understand the world as Well, as a person can. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So we have this imagination. And we have this perceptual system, which gets monkeyed with, by the brain a lot and may not be telling you exactly the truth. And then what you base. Then you base a story on the experience that this brain process delivers you. So, so it's possible for things that are completely imagined to seem very, very real. Whether it's just that you're watching a movie and you're, you know, you're suspended, you're, you're completely submerged into the world of the film. Or it can be something like  Yucca: Your anxiety at two in the morning. Mark: Yes about terrible things that are likely to happen or a memory that I have of flying naked over the golden gate bridge. It was a perfect day. It was sunset. Beautiful. And for some reason, I had no clothes on and I was standing at the bus stop at the golden gate bridge and then rose into the air and flew over the towers, did kind of a back flip. The air was perfectly warm. It was so comfortable. It was a beautiful experience. And it was a lucid dream that I had. But I remember it as absolutely clearly as if it was a real experience. And I have no, there's no context within that. Memory, except for the fact that impossible things happened to tell me that I didn't really have that experience.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So we have this. And that leads me to some of the ways that the pagan community has developed in relation to imagination and fantasy starting really from Gerald Gardner, know, from the 1930s. Because Gardner posited a fantasy story. And the fantasy story was that the witchcraft that he was presenting in his books was part of an unbroken lineage of lore handed down from time and Memorial, at least from the middle ages. And this created a sort of conflation of paganism, middle ages, middle ages, paganism. And in the late 1960s, at least in the United States, what ended up happening was that Renaissance fairs got invented. And a lot of people that were performers and participants in Renaissance fairs were also pagans. And so this sort of aesthetic, and this idea of this golden old age began to arise.  Yucca: Right. And the, the John era of fantasy was really taking off as well.  Mark: we, we have to name, check Lord of the  Yucca: out. Yep. I'm a huge fan here,  Mark: Me too.  Yucca: named from it even, you know, but and, and other, you know, many, many other names and it, it really became. I think not just within the pagan community, but just in the, in the larger community, really a cultural force. Mark: Yes. Very much. So in certainly from an aesthetic standpoint, it took, it really took over in many ways, certainly in the eighties and nineties pigging, where was medieval flash Renaissance, where,  Yucca: yeah, Mark: you know, what, what people wore were, you know, flowing velvets and  Yucca: the long sleeves.  Mark: the, with the long, you know, bill like sleeves  Yucca: And the open V shirts with the little ties across them. And yeah,  Mark: Yeah, exactly. So, and,  Yucca: I adore all of this, you  Mark: well, I do  Yucca: yeah, this is not, don't take this as us being like, oh, this is all terrible. No, we're just talking about it though and saying, you know, where's this from? Yeah. Mark: And so this, this aesthetic of ye all the England D became something that  Yucca: don't mention all the other places, sorry. Mark: Right. Yeah, That's another topic that we could talk about, which is paganism outside of the sphere of England and English speaking countries. Right. Because of. You know, not, not everything is going to be practiced in a Wiccan kind of way.  Yucca: yeah.  Mark: but  Yucca: Anyways, that's another Mark: it's a, it's another topic. either that, or it's going to be the mother of all tangents and we're going to spend the rest of our time on it. So this, this, you know, jolly old England kind of. Idea, which has so much overlap with talking for example, except that talking mixed in habits and elves and dwarves and wizards and all that kind of stuff became very, very popular. And to my mind, unfortunately, what some of what that has done is it has turned, it has turned the imagination into what people want to make re. their paganism, they want to be wizards. They, they want to be elves. In some cases they and you know, aspiration towards a fantasy of something that's imaginary is inherently dissociated from the real world. And what are. Naturalistic paganism is about is the real world. You know, one. of the quibbles that I've always had with the sort of mainstream pagan community in the United States, at least where I'm familiar with it is that it's got this weird kind of dual loyalty. It's like we Revere the earth and then we have these gods  Yucca: Yes, but these higher beings, you know, higher than what you're talking about higher than the earth, you know, they're not. Mark: the gods come from the earth? No. Did the gods create the earth? Maybe? There are all kinds of different stories, which I believe are imagined stories, but the, the question of exactly where does the earth fit into all of that is a real one. I think I'm glad that people are saying that they Revere the earth, whatever that means to them. To me, the earth is central. There's nothing more central because we are it. We are the earth standing up on legs and talking to itself.  Yucca: Right.  Really? I mean, think about that for a moment. We are little pieces of earth that your whole body think about. Where's the carbon in your hands, the oxygen, the nitrogen. Where's all of that from, and where's it going back? Mark: Right. And it's not like there's some amazing border where it's like, you, you know, the carbon presents its passport and says, I'm going to be human. Now it's just carbon. It's just carbon, like any other carbon on earth, right. At least of that ice.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So. This is something that I think is, is problematic in the pagan community. And it's interesting because some different there've been a series of sort of aesthetic layers that have gone along with the pagan community. I saw the, the golf sort of BDSM aesthetic enter the community in the mid nineties. And it's kind of gotten folded into all. well,  Yucca: Yeah. The boundaries between them really blurred between, you know, what is, and even if you go to like a Ren fair that it's all there too,  Mark: right.  Yucca: Even within folks that, that are into that, that aren't pagan, you know, that there's a lot of mixing there. Mark: Yes. And yes, there's a lot of the, the dress-up is still. Reminiscent of some other age. Right. And so, you know, I, I think this is problematic because it pulls us away from earth. I love playing dress up and I'm, I'm happy to play dress up and I have done it in many, I mean, literally dozens of different kinds of ways, because we used to do all these theme parties and blah, blah, blah. And I was a performer at Renaissance fairs for many years as well, and Dickens fairs as well. So I don't have any problem with, you know, playing let's pretend the challenge, I think is when we lose track of the fact that we're playing, let's pretend.  Yucca: Right because there are, I think there are ways that we'll talk about this too, to do it in a way that it is inspiring. It speaks to us in this very you know, deep level, the Indian symbols. But what you're talking about is the, is the losing sight of is this really, really. This is what's really happening versus what are we imagining? And we can, I think that we can definitely w one of the purposes of imagination is that can work towards making that a reality. So we can, some of our imagined things can, can become reality, but there's also a difference between imagining things about other people and about. Past stories, you know, as much as we want. We could, we referenced sort of the rings. So as much as, as Gollum wants to believe that it was his birthday present it, he can believe that. And imagine that as long as he wants, it's not, that's not what happened.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: Right. And. With the old ways, as much as we want to imagine, and really want to believe that there's some unbroken path there. That's very unlikely that that's what happened. And you know, we probably aren't star children put here from aliens and,  Mark: Right.  Yucca: the TAF ELLs and all of that stuff. Mark: Right. And the w where was I going to go with this?  Yucca: The connection between what is real and what is not, and the earth being central. That's where you were at before. Mark: Well, yeah, this is a little different it's about suspension of disbelief. And one of the things that adults learn to do when their brains are developed enough is to try to make a differentiation between the imagined and the. Right. And some people think that's a tragedy, right. That they lose their childish sense of playfulness and imagination and everything can be just super magical. Right. I don't feel that way. I, I think that our brains develop in the way they do for a reason. And when we start having to imagine futures that we need to plan for being able to distinguish between the imaginary that we suspend our disbelief for and the real that we're working towards, even in the ineffectual way that we do because of the way our brains work. It's very important. Yucca: Right. Mark: That way we don't set a goal of becoming an elf,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: right. Because that's not possible.  Yucca: Yeah.  Now we could think about what are the characteristics that, that embodies that we value and how can we work towards, you know, that sort of thing. But, but you're not actually going to be right.  Mark: right. Or You maybe maybe more, a better example is you're not going to be a wizard. Right. Because in the, in the fantasy sense, what a wizard is, is something that doesn't exist on planet earth. Now You can be buried in the aesthetics of wizardry. You can con you know, Yucca: can be an incredible scholar, right? They're often, you know, very learned individuals and. Mark: And you can make yourself look like a wizard and make all of your environs look like what you imagine a wizard's environs would look like, but you're still not going to snap your fingers and have flame appear, you know? And. To kid ourselves that those kinds of outcomes, the sort of Harry Potter magic, right. That that those outcomes are actually possible in some way is to become further away from engagement with the world. The actual world that we're in here and the kind of paganism that Yucca and I talk about here is really about immersion in this world. Getting to know it better and better, you know, becoming familiar with what our local ecosystems are and really being in love with it because there's so much there to love. Giving getting sidetracked on fantasies. It eats up bandwidth that could be applied to the love for the world. and. that I think is. Critique that I have of a lot of mainstream paganism in the United States is that, and maybe in England too, I don't know. But certainly, or, you know, in other English speaking countries, but certainly in north America Canada and Mexico in the us that's, that seems to be what I'm seeing.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So let's talk a second about. About using our imagination to create those story arcs where we begin as naturalist pagans is with a healthy suspension of disbelief. Right.  Yucca: And with a, with an awareness that that's what word.  Mark: Right,  Yucca: Right, because what you're talking about about the difference between what the children and adult brain and people talking about, oh, the, the what a, a shame it is. I think that some of what they might be talking about is the ability to let go the way kids can let go. Right. And I think that's something that we don't need to leave. Is being able to let go and go into that playful place, but we also have the ability to step back and be very critical and, and see the differences. But when we want to, we can suspend that belief  Mark: Right,  Yucca: disbelief, right? Mark: that's very well said. Because the. The playfulness that you're describing that that is something that our over culture really stomps on for adults. We've got all this conformity expectation around how we dress around how we behave. That's why I love flashmob. I love. I love, you know, people suddenly behave me behaving in really unexpected ways that are delightful and creative and artistic. They're just super fun. Ritual is a way for adults to play well or children to children can be involved in rituals, but but adults, unless it's some formal sport or game. They don't get permission much to just go and play, you know, you take the afternoon off, go and play.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And and rituals enable us to do that around fee Matic storylines, you know, whether it's. Whether it's something from, from a myth, whether it's a story that, or, or simply a story of, I am powerful. Now I am, I am, I am filled with my power. I have created a space where magic can occur and I'm going to go and do this thing. And it's going to help me to be much more effective at X, whatever X.  Yucca: Yeah, well, and even our our, our stories and narratives of the season. Right. That that is a story as well. And we understand it in with the narrative structure. Mark: Yes, it's true because the reality is every year.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah. every year is different. The weather on any given day is not the same as it was last year. Weather is a chaotic system and it's never going to be predictable. And all we can talk about is broad stroke generalizations about what is likely to happen in the month of February, as opposed to the month of August. And we understand some of the drivers of that in terms of the axial tilt and. Climate change and all of those things, but that doesn't make it predictable. So we have a story, a narrative about it instead that kind of guides us through well it's may, so we should be doing this. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: And that's, again, as we were talking about in the beginning, that's just sort of how our, our, our minds are built is to understand things as story as, as a narrative. And then the imagination piece is, well, we get to build that story.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: So in our ritual, we're building those stories and, and it's very convenient in ritual that we do have the blur between what our, what our minds understand as true and not. Mark: Right Because we can invoke an imagined scenario and effect real profound change in ourselves as people. I  Yucca: believe it. And it's okay that we know that we made it up and we're believing it, but then it really makes that change. Mark: I did a ritual at Penn FIA con God, it's gotta be eight years ago now, something like that. And it was, it was specifically in atheopagan ritual that happened after a presentation about atheopagan ism and. What the whole point of this, we, you know, we invoked a circle and we we called qualities that we wanted to be with us of openness and a willingness to change and kindness and compassion. And the, the whole working of the root of the ritual was simply, I had a little. Vial of oil. And I went from person to person anointing their forehead. But what I told them before I did that was now, what I want you to do is to call up that most cringe-worthy a shame, shame, filling moment of your life. You know what it is. We all know  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: right? You, you don't have to say anything about it, but we know what it is. The thing that you really wish you had never done. Right. And hold that forward in your mind. And so all I did was I went from person to person and said, it's forgotten it's over. It's gone  With each person. And people cried  Yucca: right. Yeah.  Mark: story that they had been telling themselves about the bad thing that they done, or the embarrassing thing that they'd done or whatever it was, the story had a new ending, right? The story was given a new ending that absolves them of the feelings of shame or embarrassment or whatever it was. And I mean, I, I didn't realize it was going to be as powerful as it was. But I wanted, I wanted to do something that was very personal work to really illustrate the power of doing ritual like that without invoking God's, without believing in magic. right. And. That's the kind of thing that we can do with rituals and story narratives. People, people are filled with stories. They're filled with stories about themselves and about the world and about humanity and about their families and all that kind of stuff. And we can change those stories in ways that empower people and help them to be happier and help them to be kinder in the world. That's what I'm in this for. Yucca: Yeah  Mark: and so imagination becomes, you know, the primary tool, the, the cloth that you lay down before setting out anything for a focus or an alter imagination is the foundation.  Yucca: I like that even rhymes. Yeah. And again, just to really, really be very clear on this, neither of us are being down on the fantasy genre or B we're both huge fans and bring a D and D nerds and all of that stuff. But we're, we're talking about the, the ways that, you know, what's the purpose of each and where the. Where we can use imagination in a really constructive way and where it's maybe more harmful, right? Mark: Right or just where we may be stuck.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And you know, people do get stuck. That's in cultures get stuck. I think it's a lot easier for a culture that's based in a holy text to get stuck than it is for kind of a fluid subculture, like a pagan. Is to get stuck. But there's nothing shameful about that, except that if you become aware of it, then you can start to evolve again.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And I think that, you know, moving away from the good old days, a lineage of ancient ways. Kind of model and, and sort of Renaissance see sort of aesthetic of paganism. We'll do a couple of things that would be good for the pagan community. One of them is that I think it would make it less of a challenge to bridge the gap to other people that are not pagans because it won't seem quite so fantasied. Right. It, it won't seem. Quite so, frivolous in that way.  Yucca: Well, and, and also more welcoming to the people who don't particularly connect with that aesthetic,  Mark: right, right?  Yucca: Where the, the ideas are interesting, but the aesthetic is is just difficult to get past, right. Mark: For sure. So that's a good thing. And then the other way that I think that it can really benefit the pagan community is that it, it enables it, it would create kind of a vacuum that would enable new stuff to arise. There, and, and I think that some of this is happening because you know, the, the sixties and seventies, generation of pagans is leaving us. Most of, most of them came to it in adulthood. And so by now they're, they're getting elderly. And there there's enough conversation and enough pagan thought happening now that I think that people are starting to reconsider some of those. Good old days, unbroken lineage kind of models. Certainly with Ronald Hutton's book, the triumph of the moon, he pretty well-documented that modern paganism was a modern creation. I think it would be a wonderful thing for modern paganism to stand up and say, yes, we're a modern creation. were informed by modern values, which means we don't have. Holy book that's full of slavery and abuse and misogyny. We, we stand for, for the good stuff that humans have learned about how the dignity of the individual and the ecosystem. And we think that those are value and that good enough,  Yucca: Yeah. And we don't need some, some distant past authority to make it valid. Right. Mark: As as Tim mentioned said I don't believe that just because I ideas are tenacious that they're worthy.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So going back to talking about rituals again one thing that can be helpful when you're planning a ritual is to write out the story. Right. you know, or, or at least speak it out loud, we're going to do this and this and this and this and this, and the result is going to be that. Because what that does is it creates expectation in people's minds. In your own mind if you're working alone or in the group's mind. Oh, okay. Well that's, what's going to happen. And then it's going to result in that cool, magical new thing. That's going to transform us. Great. Sign me up. I'm I'm I'm here  Yucca: can follow that path and follow that. And there you go.  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: Yeah. So I think this is a, I mean, like so many things that we talk about on this podcast, it, it takes a little bit of awareness, but takes some reflection and just paying attention to. How things work, how you work, how you respond and, and going from there, going, okay, well, how do I get, how do I make this work for me? What's the story that I want. What's the story that I want to live. What's the story that I can tell and imagination is that's what connects the pieces. Mark: Yes. Yes. So I think, I don't know. I could go on and on, but I think, I think we should stop here.  Yucca: I think this is a wonderful  Mark: I think it's a good place to stop.  Yucca: assist the app and to just invite some dreams for the future. Right.  Mark: Right. And this is, as you say, a great time of year to be doing that you know, as, as spring either, you know, is happening with the light, but not with the weather or or maybe it is happening starting to happen as it is where I live. Then you know, imagine a little, imagine. Who do I want to be? What's, what's my highest vision for myself.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: some of that can be circumstantial. Like, you know, what kind of work I want to be doing, or, you know, whatever that is. But some of it is, well, what kind of person do I want to be?  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: You know? Am I impatient? Well, can I work on that? Am I irritable? Can I work on that? Yucca: And that's ultimately the stuff that you really do have control over. Right? The, what. You know what job you have or what kind of world you want to live in. Those are all wonderful things, but ultimately you don't actually have control over that. Right. But you do have control over what kind of person you're going to be and how you're going to respond when certain types of things happen. Mark: Right. Not to say that activism isn't important  Yucca: Right. Exactly. You can definitely.  Mark: You can definitely. advocate and work to bring about improvements to the world that we live in. And it's essential. That is many of us as possible. Do that. So not, not to say that your highest vision of yourself should Trump your vision for the world. But.  Yucca: But you aren't a personal failure. If you aren't the chosen one from the stories that saves the world from global warming and on all of that, you can, you can be part of that solution, but don't, but don't beat yourself up that like, That are that real life doesn't work the same way. Fantasy novelists work. Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. I mean, one of the things, one of the most pernicious things, I think about the children's stories that we tell people is, and they lived happily ever after. I mean, that's a terrible thing to tell people, because the expectation then is okay, you get married and then you lived happily ever after until you have a knock-down, drag-out fight over something super trivial that neither one of you is willing to get off of until a day later, when you finally got all the quarters all out of your system, and you're ready to start actually having a conversation. This is the way the world really works.  Yucca: Yes. Oh, on the poor. Yeah. And when, and when you've been raised on those stories and think that that's how it works, then you suddenly, is this not true? Love  Mark: Right.  Yucca: This is not meant to be. Relationships take work anyways. Now we're going on a tangent.  Mark: we are. Yes.  Yucca: That's a, well, maybe that'll be something to talk about as we get closer to Valentines. Mark: Yeah, That's a good idea of, although we actually have. Next week we have Sarah Lindsay coming. We're going to do an interview with the YouTuber known as the, the skeptical, which and if you haven't seen her channel, I really encourage you to take a look at some of her stuff. She's a PhD candidate in religious studies, and she's very, very interesting to talk with and listen to. So we're going to be doing that interview Next week. I am too. It's going to be great. So. In the meantime, we hope you all have a wonderful week, enjoy the season and be sure to contact us at the email address. We always tell you thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. If you have comments or suggested topics or any of that. Thanks So much, everybody.  Yucca: Thanks everyone. 

We've all done it; we've created Sacred Space by calling the Spirits of the Four Directions. We stand at each direction and draw the appropriate pentagram and we Invoke the Spirits that have the appropriate character. But where does all that mumbo jumbo come from? Some say Gerald Gardner, which is correct to a point. Others say that Witches have been doing that on their own and in secret, like, forever - which is really not at all true. So this week we're going to find out who or what the Watchtowers are and where they came from. They may or may not have something to do with Archangels, and Archangels may or may not be a Christian thing. Don't worry; I will not leave you in suspense for long. But, like everything else, The Watchtowers DO have something to do with Stars; and so does the story of Orpheus, and his Lyre. We'll see how those tie together. And I also have a spoken word meditation from Ted Andrews, called "The Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram". Be well. Do good. Enjoy the show!

We welcome Michelle from Heartfelt Illustrations for the next two episodes. In this episode we address all the important questions like who is Donna and why does Dee have such a girl crush on her? What do Michelle and Dee learn about dandelions that blows their minds? What were Gerald Gardner's two main passions in life? What was his favourite pastime and did it involve clothes? Who was Old Dorothy Clutterbuck? With guest appearance from Google. Again This season, we are going weekly, releasing a brand spanking new episode every Wednesday. Click here to visit Heartfelt's Illustrations' website. Click here to visit the We Knew The Moon website. Don't forget to check out our cool new MERCH!